Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-gy

September 28, 2007 - October 10, 2007



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Date: Sep 28, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: EAA Chapter Members
For those on the list who belong to an EAA chapter, would you be so kind as to put me in touch with your newsletter editor. I'm a member of the Jayhawk Chapter 88, and since no one else would volunteer, I'm now the newsletter editor. What I would like to do is establish links with other editors to make one time use of each other's articles, photos, and any other content that might help fill those pages each month. I'll send anyone who contacts me off list at: jindoguy(at)gmail.com a pdf file of the last, and my first issue of "The Beacon"'. Thanks folks, Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Richard Pike's web site
From: "ropermike" <ropermike2002(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Wow! Great website! .... I really appreciate the time and effort it takes to learn all this computer stuff, then post it all on a website to share with everyone! .....I have Richards site in my favorites now!.....Mike -------- The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing!...Mike Hillger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137101#137101 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EAA Chapter Members
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Rick, Here is a link to our local EAA Chapter 46 website. It has all the contact info there and current and past newsletters too. http://www.eaa46.org/ -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137102#137102 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Subject: Re: Kolb Twinstar Should I get it?
I really liked my mk2 is yours an original twin star or a mk2? there is a big difference malcolm michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
Group I just received my new 64 '' 2- blade Warp that I plan on putting on my firefly with 447, instead of my Ivo, which had an adjustment ear break off. Problem is the bolts supplied are only long enough to reach through the prop, without the spacer. Will the Warp hit the trailing edge without the spacer,or is it stiff enough that it will work without the spacer. What pitch should I start with? Also, I weighed the 64' warp and it weighs 8.25 lbs. Has anyone weighed a 66" Ivo? Any input from someone with experience in these areas would be most helpfull ! Ed Diebel FF62 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Quick things to look for after you've inspected the outside
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
> Do NOT use SS cable for control cables on the Kolb - SS cable will start to break strands where it goes around the pullies under the seat (on my FS II anyway) as early as 20 hours after installation. Don't ask me how I know this......" I just checked my stainless steel control cables this week. I'm doing an annual and getting ready for my E-LSA inspection. After 438hrs there is no fraying where the cables go around the pullies under the seat (or anywhere else). I recieved SS cable with my kit from Kolb and used it. It still looks great (although it's a bit dusty). Are you sure you had the correct type of SS cable in your FSII? It should have been the 7x19 strand extra flexible cable. If you used 7x7 or 1x19 strand, it would cause the failure you mentioned. If you did have the correct type, look for a source of abration. It is not normal for the correct cable to fail in the manner you described. Just about every Kolb out there has stainless steel cables and they are still being supplied with kits. It is great to point out a potential problem, but don't be too quick to make blanket statements based on a data set of one. There is no problem with using the proper stainless steel cable for the controls in a Kolb. -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1862C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137146#137146 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Quick things to look for after you've inspected the outside
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Just ran out to the barn with a rare earth magnet from an old hard-drive and tested my cables. Stuck like glue. Hmmmm...... Please stand by while I extricate the foot from my oral cavity. I just helped a friend with a Firestar II replace his control cables last month. He ordered them from Travis at Kolb and told me they were stainless. I'll ask him to do the magnet check as well. Back to the barn.... -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1862C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137158#137158 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Having a spacer will lesson the prop noise as it passes the wing, I dont know how close it is on the firefly, but you dont want it to close. I would think it could also be hard on the fabric if it were passing that close. I use a 4 inch spacer on my MK III. I would get the long bolts and use the spacer... The weight might be more than the recommendations of the gear box. But not to worry, you can get a C - Box that will handle the extra weight of the warp just fine for 1200 bucks :) If I had the B box, I would be tempted to put the warp on it, but its technically to heavy for that gear box, and it might or might not last long. I got a powerfin when I needed a new prop for the 447 to keep the weight within limits... What is the adjustment ear ? I am not familiar with the IVO, but you now have a nice protractor to set the pitch of the prop, you could use that to set the pitch on the IVO and fly for now. The warp protractor is a really accurate way to set your pitch. Like Planecrazzy said, I would set it for 6200 RPM static... There is nothing to gain by setting the RPM very high except wearing out your engine sooner, or even increasing the chance of it failing. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137164#137164 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Quick things to look for after you've inspected the
outside R. Hankins wrote: > > Just ran out to the barn with a rare earth magnet from an old hard-drive and tested my cables. Stuck like glue. Hmmmm...... Please stand by while I extricate the foot from my oral cavity. > > I just helped a friend with a Firestar II replace his control cables last month. He ordered them from Travis at Kolb and told me they were stainless. I'll ask him to do the magnet check as well. > > Back to the barn.... > > -------- > Roger in Oregon > 1992 KXP 503 - N1862C > Some alloys of stainless are magnetic. Sorry; don't know which ones, though. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
Ed, Look up the report I did last winter on prop inertia testing in the archives. I don't remember the weight of the Ivo I tested. It was a three blade, so it might not be of much help, anyway. Probably the most important thing you can do for the health of your gearbox, a "B", I'm guessing, is to do the inertia testing on your new Warp Drive. It is very easy to do and will give you the info on just how far out of limit you are. As for running the prop, set your idle RPM high enough so you don't get gear chatter and make throttle changes smoothly. I'm attaching the Rotax service instruction on inertia testing. Rick On 9/29/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Group > > I just received my new 64 '' 2- blade Warp that I plan on > putting on my firefly with 447, instead of my Ivo, which had an adjustment > ear break off. Problem is the bolts supplied are only long enough to reach > through the prop, without the spacer. Will the Warp hit the trailing edge > without the spacer,or is it stiff enough that it will work without the > spacer. > What pitch should I start with? > > Also, I weighed the 64' warp and it weighs 8.25 lbs. Has anyone weighed > a 66" Ivo? > > Any input from someone with experience in these areas would be > most helpfull ! > > > Ed Diebel FF62 > > > ------------------------------ > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
Mike, The ear Ed referred to is connected to the steel rod that runs inside the blade. Ivos adjust the pitch by twisting this rod. Without the ear, I don't know of any way to set the pitch. I suppose you could have a bunch of wedges machined but it seems like more trouble than it's worth. Rick On 9/29/07, JetPilot wrote: > > > Having a spacer will lesson the prop noise as it passes the wing, I dont > know how close it is on the firefly, but you dont want it to close. I would > think it could also be hard on the fabric if it were passing that close. I > use a 4 inch spacer on my MK III. I would get the long bolts and use the > spacer... > > The weight might be more than the recommendations of the gear box. But > not to worry, you can get a C - Box that will handle the extra weight of the > warp just fine for 1200 bucks :) If I had the B box, I would be tempted to > put the warp on it, but its technically to heavy for that gear box, and it > might or might not last long. I got a powerfin when I needed a new prop > for the 447 to keep the weight within limits... > > What is the adjustment ear ? I am not familiar with the IVO, but you now > have a nice protractor to set the pitch of the prop, you could use that to > set the pitch on the IVO and fly for now. The warp protractor is a really > accurate way to set your pitch. > > Like Planecrazzy said, I would set it for 6200 RPM static... There is > nothing to gain by setting the RPM very high except wearing out your engine > sooner, or even increasing the chance of it failing. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have > !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137164#137164 > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
Ed, There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades tapered? If not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp and getting it done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest effect on the inertia of the prop. Rick On 9/29/07, Richard Girard wrote: > > Ed, Look up the report I did last winter on prop inertia testing in the > archives. I don't remember the weight of the Ivo I tested. It was a three > blade, so it might not be of much help, anyway. > Probably the most important thing you can do for the health of your > gearbox, a "B", I'm guessing, is to do the inertia testing on your new Warp > Drive. It is very easy to do and will give you the info on just how far out > of limit you are. > As for running the prop, set your idle RPM high enough so you don't get > gear chatter and make throttle changes smoothly. > I'm attaching the Rotax service instruction on inertia testing. > > Rick > > On 9/29/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > > Group > > > > I just received my new 64 '' 2- blade Warp that I plan on > > putting on my firefly with 447, instead of my Ivo, which had an adjustment > > ear break off. Problem is the bolts supplied are only long enough to reach > > through the prop, without the spacer. Will the Warp hit the trailing edge > > without the spacer,or is it stiff enough that it will work without the > > spacer. > > What pitch should I start with? > > > > Also, I weighed the 64' warp and it weighs 8.25 lbs. Has anyone > > weighed a 66" Ivo? > > > > Any input from someone with experience in these areas would be > > most helpfull ! > > > > > > Ed Diebel FF62 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > > > * > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > > > * > > > > > > > -- > Rick Girard > "Ya'll drop on in" > takes on a whole new meaning > when you live at the airport. > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ADIZ Helicopter interception
That reminds of the time I was trying to sneak a short cut from FHU to YUM. The restricted area is right to the border. I figured hey I will fly inside Mexico with 1 inch of my right wing in Arizona. Well a Cessna Citation with Mexican marking and a long nose with F-16 radar in it pulled right next to me. I looked over and waved and they pulled away. I turned around and flew back to Gilla Bend VOR and took the long way to Yuma. I don't know why they don't give us at least a 1 mile corridor from the border, so we can shave about 20 minutes on flights going to San Diego or Yuma... Ron (In Dallas) ============== ---- WillUribe(at)aol.com wrote: ============ This is what happens when you let your buddy fly your FireStar. -- kugelair.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Quick things to look for after you've inspected the outside
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
R. Hankins wrote: > Just ran out to the barn with a rare earth magnet from an old hard-drive and tested my cables. Stuck like glue. Hmmmm...... Please stand by while I extricate the foot from my oral cavity. > > I just helped a friend with a Firestar II replace his control cables last month. He ordered them from Travis at Kolb and told me they were stainless. I'll ask him to do the magnet check as well. > > Back to the barn.... After my first set of SS cables that failed, I ordered the current cable directly from Travis over at Kolb - it is galvanized steel cable. One problem on the FS II is possibly that the pullies are pretty small in diameter. The design is still kosher tho, according to AC 43.13 as far as I could tell (there's a specification of a limit to the angle of bend of a cable around a small pully and I believe it was 15 degrees). Perhaps SS cable still isn't suitable on such small pullies (it is probably ok on larger pully setups). In my case, the pullies were new AN pullies (also ordered from Travis at Kolb); there was no detectable abrasion or wear that was causing the broken strands. They were just plain breaking at the pully, apparently from fatigue, I couldn't see any other cause for it. The galvanized cable, however, is holding up fine with no visible wear or breaking strands. So I'm currently going with the pully theory on why the SS doesn't work. On my titan, for example, the rudder cables are SS and are giving no problems with broken strands. They don't go over any pullies though, only through plastic friction blocks on their way back to the rudder horn. I havn't detected any broken strands where they go through the blocks.... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137214#137214 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: Airworthiness Certificate
Date: Sep 29, 2007
> > Today I had my airworthiness inspection. Everything was in working order > and passed the DAR's inspection. Did you need a three view line drawing of your plane, if so where did you get it and how can I get one? Larry C ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Kolb Twinstar Should I get it?
From: "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Grant, Take a look at this article. www.sportaviationspecialties.com/ELSACertDeadline.pdf Looks like the FAA recommends having your inspection completed by Nov. 30th. Then you send that paperwork in and hope everything goes smoothly enough to get it certificated by the Jan. 31st deadline. They also recommend contacting the DAR by October 1st to schedule an inspection. It may be cutting it awfully close if you buy one now that isn't already certificated as ELSA. -------- Cristal Mark II Twinstar Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137221#137221 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Airworthiness Certificate
Larry, the spec says a three view drawing or a picture of the aircraft. My DAR accepted a picture of my trike without batting an eye. Rick On 9/29/07, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > > > > > Today I had my airworthiness inspection. Everything was in working > order > > and passed the DAR's inspection. > > > Did you need a three view line drawing of your plane, if so where did you > get it and how can I get one? > Larry C > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jimmy" <jhankin(at)planters.net>
Subject: Re: Airworthiness Certificate
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Yes..My illustrated construction book had one.. I took it to a large copy machine and reduced the size of it to a 8 x 11 size. This was a Firefly. I can fax or e-mail to you. Fax would be easier. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Airworthiness Certificate > >> >> Today I had my airworthiness inspection. Everything was in working order >> and passed the DAR's inspection. > > > Did you need a three view line drawing of your plane, if so where did you > get it and how can I get one? > Larry C > > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: Airworthiness Certificate
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Thanks! Larry C ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Airworthiness Certificate Larry, the spec says a three view drawing or a picture of the aircraft. My DAR accepted a picture of my trike without batting an eye. Rick On 9/29/07, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > Today I had my airworthiness inspection. Everything was in working order -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: October issue of Sport Pilot
Two good things in this month's issue of Sport Pilot. On page 61 the photograph that opens the article, "Meritable Aviation" is of a group of Kolb pilots at Monument Valley under the wing of Kolbra N49KK. I'd guess the tail with the red and yellow sunburst is N101AB. Nice looking group, didn't even crack the camera lens. For all you who are speculating on what will happen to "fat" ultralights after February 1st of next year, I strongly urge you to read and take heed of the article on page 49, "An EAAer's Encounter with the FAA". By now, all on this forum know I have some pretty strong opinions about E-LSA registration. I just want you to know they are for entirely selfish purposes. Reading your posts and taking advantage of the knowledge base here is one of the greatest assets to me and my Kolbs. I'll consider it a personal lose if anyone of you are grounded because you didn't take advantage of the grace period given us by the FAA. Face it, flyers are a dying breed. The lose of any one of us is one too many. Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
In a message dated 9/29/2007 9:02:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes: Ed, There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades tapered? If not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp and getting it done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest effect on the inertia of the prop. Rick Rick, Yes I did get the blades tapered . Thanks for your replies and the info on inertia testing. I plan on testing as soon as I can. It is not real clear as to how they attach the wires to the prop but I will try to rig it like the diagram. Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
I made an attachment plate from a piece of scrap plywood. The two smaller holes at 90 degrees to the centerline were used to test an old Soarmaster prop from the olds when you had to foot launch ultralights. I used .032 safety wire to suspend the prop being tested from a piece of square steel tubing I "C" clamped from the hangar frame and braced the tube with a couple of pieces of steel flat stock I took from my scrap bin. The whole apparatus took about 15 minutes to make. I used the stop watch I bought for testing Vx and Vy speeds during phase 1 testing of my mk 3 and repeated the test 3 times and took the average time. About the hardest thing about it all was trying to eliminate as much of any extraneous side to side rocking as possible. With a little practice I got pretty good at eyeballing the center mark as being in the center of the twisting motion. Once you get it moving with the center mark as still as possible you can count 30 swings, write down the time, count 30 more, write down the second time and count 30 more. Like any pendulum, as the arc gets shorter the speed the arc slows down. In doing 95 to 100 total swings to get three 30 swing tests each set was within a few tenths of a second for each of the three. With mounting and dismounting, I tested five props in about an hour and a half, and that included a break to make a pot of coffee in the middle of the testing. Rick On 9/30/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/29/2007 9:02:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, > jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes: > > Ed, There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades > tapered? If not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp > and getting it done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest > effect on the inertia of the prop. > > Rick > > Rick, > > Yes I did get the blades tapered . Thanks for your replies and the > info on inertia testing. I plan on testing as soon as I can. It is not real > clear as to how they attach the wires to the prop but I will try to rig it > like the diagram. > > Ed > > > ------------------------------ > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ADIZ Helicopter interception
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
They want to make sure you do not spot the Mexican citizens the Mexican government is helping to cross the border... Mexicans working in this country and sending money back home is Mexico's second largest source of income after oil exports. You could also spot some shipments of drugs coming across the border, which would also be bad for the Mexican economy. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137245#137245 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Kolb Twinstar Should I get it?
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: "Craig Nelson" <Craig.Nelson(at)heraeus.com>
Grant r u a dental tec? Craig Nelson Technical Representative Heraeus 99 Business Park Drive Armonk, NY 10504 Phone: (800) 431-1785 x 739 Direct: 623-764-0680 Craig.Nelson(at)heraeus.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of grantr Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:03 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Twinstar Should I get it? I am in Plains, GA. I work in Americus. Ive been through Waycross a few times going to Savannah. I will be heading to St Simmons soon for a work conference. yes I am the same guy. I watch that add for a while. I almost called the guy but I was a bit weary of it be the older model. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136997#136997 The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Here is a report of someone using a Warp Drive prop on a B - Gear box. I agree very strongly with his suggestion of using Synthetic Mobil 1 Gearbox oil, not just with a warp drive, but with any prop ! " I'm not John, but try a two blade 64" Warp, (or be really conservative and use a 62" two blade Warp) and use only Mobil One synthetic in your gearbox, and you'll probably get by without hurting the gearbox, and you'll probably be very satisfied. I got a couple hundred hours out of my B box with a Warp 66" two blade, but that was with ordinary gearbox lube. A shorter prop and better lube and you ought to do OK. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (42oldpoops) " -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137281#137281 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
The second sentence should read, "from the old days". On 9/30/07, Richard Girard wrote: > > I made an attachment plate from a piece of scrap plywood. The two smaller > holes at 90 degrees to the centerline were used to test an old Soarmaster > prop from the olds when you had to foot launch ultralights. I used .032 > safety wire to suspend the prop being tested from a piece of square steel > tubing I "C" clamped from the hangar frame and braced the tube with a couple > of pieces of steel flat stock I took from my scrap bin. The whole apparatus > took about 15 minutes to make. I used the stop watch I bought for testing Vx > and Vy speeds during phase 1 testing of my mk 3 and repeated the test 3 > times and took the average time. About the hardest thing about it all was > trying to eliminate as much of any extraneous side to side rocking as > possible. With a little practice I got pretty good at eyeballing the center > mark as being in the center of the twisting motion. Once you get it moving > with the center mark as still as possible you can count 30 swings, write > down the time, count 30 more, write down the second time and count 30 more. > Like any pendulum, as the arc gets shorter the speed the arc slows down. In > doing 95 to 100 total swings to get three 30 swing tests each set was within > a few tenths of a second for each of the three. With mounting and > dismounting, I tested five props in about an hour and a half, and that > included a break to make a pot of coffee in the middle of the testing. > > Rick > > On 9/30/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 9/29/2007 9:02:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, > > jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes: > > > > Ed, There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades > > tapered? If not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp > > and getting it done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest > > effect on the inertia of the prop. > > > > Rick > > > > Rick, > > > > Yes I did get the blades tapered . Thanks for your replies and the > > info on inertia testing. I plan on testing as soon as I can. It is not real > > clear as to how they attach the wires to the prop but I will try to rig it > > like the diagram. > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > > > * > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > > > * > > > > > > > -- > Rick Girard > "Ya'll drop on in" > takes on a whole new meaning > when you live at the airport. > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
Another question occurred to me while out walking the dog, just now. Ed, you didn't mention whether your 447 is a single carb or dual. If it's the dual carb, make sure and do the carb synchronization as accurately as you possibly can. Anything you can do to make the engine run as smooth as possible is going to make the loads on the gearbox that much less. Of course, if you have a single carb, in the words of Emily Littela, "Never mind". Rick On 9/30/07, JetPilot wrote: > > > Here is a report of someone using a Warp Drive prop on a B - Gear box. I > agree very strongly with his suggestion of using Synthetic Mobil 1 Gearbox > oil, not just with a warp drive, but with any prop ! > > > " I'm not John, but try a two blade 64" Warp, (or be really conservative > and use a 62" two blade Warp) and use only Mobil One synthetic in your > gearbox, and you'll probably get by without hurting the gearbox, and you'll > probably be very satisfied. I got a couple hundred hours out of my B box > with a Warp 66" two blade, but that was with ordinary gearbox lube. A > shorter prop and better lube and you ought to do OK. > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (42oldpoops) " > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have > !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137281#137281 > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
At 03:40 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote: >Another question occurred to me while out walking the dog, just now. >Ed, you didn't mention whether your 447 is a single carb or dual. If >it's the dual carb, make sure and do the carb synchronization as >accurately as you possibly can. Anything you can do to make the >engine run as smooth as possible is going to make the loads on the >gearbox that much less. Of course, if you have a single carb, in the >words of Emily Littela, "Never mind". > >Rick I've got a 68" three blade Warp Drive on mine. I've also got a 503 dual carb and an "E" (same as "C" with a starter) gear box. 700 + hours so far and no problems. I wouldn't think a two blade 64" Warp would hurt - even if it is a lowly, finicky 447. If it so - we surely would have heard about it by now. I use to run a two blade 68" Warp on my old single carb 447 Firestar and never had any problems. It might sink a little faster than an Ivo if you land in the water........but other than that? Besides, I've sealed my wings now - so I can float ! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Airworthiness Certificate
From: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Kolbers and Kolbettes: I sent a copy of the FS II document that I used to Matt for posting on Photoshare. (Beauford had given me a copy from a brochure, I think.) For those who can't wait, you can see it/download it by going to: http://kolbplanes.home.comcast.net/FSII_3_View_bw.jpg and if you have trouble handling that, send me an email, off list, and I will email you a copy. (Apprx 200K in size.) lcottrell wrote: > > > > > Today I had my airworthiness inspection. Everything was in working order > > and passed the DAR's inspection. > > > > > > > > Did you need a three view line drawing of your plane, if so where did you > get it and how can I get one? > Larry C -------- George Alexander http://gtalexander.home.att.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137333#137333 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed
At 08:50 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: ----- Howbout this one? This is the explanation of a pretty neat card trick you can do for friends over the Web. In order to do the trick, you'll need five things: * a deck of cards; * access to the Web; * someone to show the trick to; * an understanding of the trick's secret; and * practice. The effect of the trick is as follows: the magician opens this Web page but doesn't touch the computer for the duration of the trick. The spectator is given a deck of cards, and asked to choose any five cards; these cards can be chosen at random, or the spectator can choose five cards he wants to use. The magician takes one of the five cards out of the set, and asks his friend to enter the other four cards into a form on the Web page (a working version can be found below). The Guess button is pressed, and a picture of the fifth card is displayed. In this document, I explain everything about the trick except for its secret. But hints are given to figure out how the trick is done, and you can always beg me to tell you. http://www.minortriad.com/cards.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah - you can beg all you want - but he won't tell you - hints come slow and hard took me two years to figure it out! How about if I give you a clue - ? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ELT Installation
From: "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Hi guys. Sorry if I'm boring you with this thread. I had a mechanic come out and look at my plane. He seemed to think it would NOT be a good idea to put any holes in the boom tube (to install my ELT) or thought I should at least call Kolb company and see if they would tell me where a good place to put my ELT would be. Has anyone done that (don't want to bother them if they've already answered that question a hundred times)? If I did install the ELT to the boom tube, is there a place where I should/shouldn't put any holes? I've attached Plan B. We came up with the idea to make an aluminum plate and rivet it to the frame just behind the passenger's head (I have a Kolb Mark II two-seater side-by-side). Thought there might be enough room on there to also attach the antenna. Only drawback would be it would block where my left gas tank comes in and out. I don't plan on taking that in and out much though. -------- Cristal Mark II Twinstar Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137353#137353 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/elt_installation_plan_b_185.bmp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: Bob Noyer <a58r(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Installation
To rivet, you'll have to drill holes in the cage tubes...possibly weakening them. How about making/buying some clamps that will go around/grip the tubes and can be riveted to the mounting plate? If behind the pax seat, you most certainly don't want to give him/her a "shot to the head" on a sudden halt! regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: Bob Noyer <a58r(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Installation
There are much better places to mount the ELT antenna than in among the cage tubing. Tip of fin, on a big clamp around boom, belly (if you land on yer back!). regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
I run a 68" 3 blade un tapered Warp Drive on my 582 with a "C" gearbox and have had no problems The Warp has high inertia but it falls within limits, barely. Even so I always change throttle settings smooth and gradual. I was running a Rice King clutch but I worked a trade for the standard rubber donut drive damper and some flying time at Wallaby Ranch when I go to Sun n Fun 2008 next April so I've got to follow all the advice I've been handing out to Ed. :-) Rick On 9/30/07, possums wrote: > > At 03:40 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote: > >Another question occurred to me while out walking the dog, just now. > >Ed, you didn't mention whether your 447 is a single carb or dual. If > >it's the dual carb, make sure and do the carb synchronization as > >accurately as you possibly can. Anything you can do to make the > >engine run as smooth as possible is going to make the loads on the > >gearbox that much less. Of course, if you have a single carb, in the > >words of Emily Littela, "Never mind". > > > >Rick > > I've got a 68" three blade Warp Drive on mine. > I've also got a 503 dual carb and an "E" (same as "C" with a starter) gear > box. > 700 + hours so far and no problems. > I wouldn't think a two blade 64" Warp would hurt - even if it is a > lowly, finicky 447. > If it so - we surely would have heard about it by now. > I use to run a two blade 68" Warp on my old single carb 447 Firestar > and never had any problems. It might sink a little faster than an Ivo if > you > land in the water........but other than that? > Besides, I've sealed my wings now - so I can float ! > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
In a message dated 9/30/2007 10:46:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes: I run a 68" 3 blade un tapered Warp Drive on my 582 with a "C" gearbox and have had no problems The Warp has high inertia but it falls within limits, barely. Even so I always change throttle settings smooth and gradual. I was running a Rice King clutch but I worked a trade for the standard rubber donut drive damper and some flying time at Wallaby Ranch when I go to Sun n Fun 2008 next April so I've got to follow all the advice I've been handing out to Ed. :-) Rick At this point I would like to know if I have enough clearance on my firefly, to run the 64"Warp without a spacer. It doesn't seem to flex at all ! If In fact I do need a spacer can I use grade 5 bolts? Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Warp Drive
Ed, I don't run a spacer on my Warp Drive and the prop blades don't seem to flex at all. I would run the 8.8 spec metric bolts that came with the prop (equivalent to grade 6 AN bolts). Grade 5 bolts are a carbon steel bolt, while the 8.8, like the AN's are an alloy steel. The difference is in the alloy steels ability to bend without getting brittle as the grade 5's do. Rick On 10/1/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/30/2007 10:46:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, > jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes: > > I run a 68" 3 blade un tapered Warp Drive on my 582 with a "C" gearbox and > have had no problems The Warp has high inertia but it falls within limits, > barely. Even so I always change throttle settings smooth and gradual. I was > running a Rice King clutch but I worked a trade for the standard rubber > donut drive damper and some flying time at Wallaby Ranch when I go to Sun n > Fun 2008 next April so I've got to follow all the advice I've been handing > out to Ed. :-) > > Rick > > At this point I would like to know if I have enough > clearance on my firefly, to run the 64"Warp without a spacer. It doesn't > seem to flex at all ! If In fact I do need a spacer can I use grade 5 > bolts? > > Ed > > > ------------------------------ > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DBforfun(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork
I have a Mark III that was originally fitted with a 503 and now I am installing a 912 ULS and I am registering it LSA. Does anyone have copies of the paperwork that you used to license your Kolb on your computer that you could send to me that I can use as a guide line to make the necessary documents, etc to finish the process with mine. I have the kit from the EAA and I have the N number and the registration from the FAA. I am in the process of finishing the installation of the engine and a new panel. I have to now finish the paperwork and as soon as the engine and panel are finished call for the inspection. Also I have a question about safety wire on the prop bolts and prop extension bolts. Since the bolts are held on with lock nuts in both instances, rather than threading into a flange, will the inspector require that I drill the bolt heads and safety wire them? I really appreciate the info I have gotten from this forum. You guys have helped me tremendously. Thanks Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Subject: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Lock nuts on a non-rotating bolt should be sufficient. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: DBforfun(at)aol.com To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork Also I have a question about safety wire on the prop bolts and prop extension bolts. Since the bolts are held on with lock nuts in both instances, rather than threading into a flange, will the inspector require that I drill the bolt heads and safety wire them? I really appreciate the info I have gotten from this forum. You guys have helped me tremendously. Thanks Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
I just got back fro the Kolb Homecoming. Richard Pike and John Hauck faced off for the Grand Vortex Generator Challenge. It was a draw!!!!!!! As a bit of a background: Richard Pike - He has a highly modified MKIII with the most VGs I have ever seen on one airplane with 582 Rotax. It is light, streamlined and clearly configured for slow flight. John Hauck - His airplane MKIII is clearly built for a different mission. It is in comparison more than 100 lbs heaver than Richards airplane and has no VGs. I assumed that John would surely be eating crow. They did three slow flight fly overs at app. 500ft. The winner would fly the slowest. John H. clearly wanted to win. John was flying with full flaps and had the power on to maintain altitude in a mush. On the first pass John must have stalled ten times and lost some altitude at one point but held even with Richard. On the last two passes John had the routine down and only stalled a few times but was on the edge again holding even with Richard. Richard was rock solid on all passes with not a hint of stall but not noticeably any slower. John said he saw Richard occasionally used flaps but it wasn't something we could see from the ground. It appeared Richard had a much easier time flying. As a final observation: With the weight differences Richard should have won. The effort John put in to keeping slowed down with Richard would make up for the weight difference. I find it hard to believe but it would appear that the VGs didn't help a bit. Will this settle the controversy? Don't think so. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: More ELT mounting pics
Although I'm not fond of this mounting scheme, simply slipping a couple of insulated clamps around frame members, it does work and it's quick and dirty. The antenna mount I'm even less fond, but once again, it gets the job done. One note on ELT's. The cable going to the panel switch seems to be designed for mounting in the extreme aft of something the size of a B-52. I see a lot of installations, like mine, that has the excess cable wadded up and nylon tied. As you can see from the picture, the cable on this model comes straight out of the case. I have an ACK 450 for my FireStar that has a phone plug so the cable can be replaced. Unfortunately, I can't just substitute a phone cord more near the length required. Phone cords run straight through from plug to plug. ELT cords have a 180 twist so that, for instance, if the red wire is connected to the first terminal on one end, it's connected to first terminal on the other end, too, whereas on a phone cord it would be connected to the fourth terminal. Regardless, a $10 tool from Rat Shack and a $.99 pack of plugs are all you need to shorten up this cable and make the installation a little neater. Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: The Kuffels <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Installation
<< There are much better places to mount the ELT antenna than in among the cage tubing. >> Actually, the inside of a large cage like a Kolb is a very good place to mount an ELT and its antenna. It is not a good electrical location but the problem with ELT antennas is they tend to be be removed in a crash. The signal from inside a mangled cage is quite usable whereas the signal from an ELT with no antenna is non-existent. Such was the case with many of the several hundred searches I flew in Alaska. On the other hand, when I crashed a few years ago, the signal from inside the fiberglass tailcone (surrounded by bits of metal) was so strong Search & Rescue couldn't zero in on it because of all the reflections bouncing off the surrounding mountains. Tom Kuffel Whitefish, MT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Pretty good analysis, now let me fill in the gaps from my onboard perspective... John and I taxied out, we had discussed it and I was supposed to take off first, he would join up with me, we turn final together at around 50 and then slow down to whatever. I got to the runup area and discovered I had no radio. (My bad, I had been using my noise canceling earbuds in conjunction with my headset, and discovered about half way home that the plug for the earbuds wasn't all the way in.) Sat in the runup area, fiddled with the cords and plugs for a while, decided the radio had died, and went ahead and took off. First pass, I never did see John, had no idea where he was. The idea of flying a semi-formation with anybody that I can't talk to and can't see is not my idea of a smiley-face event, so my desire to fly as slow as possible was balanced by my desire to make real sure that I held my altitude exactly, and did not stall. (Emphasis on the "did not stall") I figured that if he could see me, and I didn't do anything but fly straight and level, no one would get hurt. Earlier Saturday, while I was passing over London, Ky, I tried a little slow flight flight just to brush up, and in perfectly smooth air, I could get the airspeed to read 22-23 before it stalled. Obviously not an accurate reading, but at least a reference number. During the pass down the runway, in somewhat bumpy air, I felt uncomfortable getting below 26 indicated, because I couldn't see my wingman, and if I stalled and got into him... There are no excuses for being dumb and hurting your buddies. Second pass, I could see John, he was slightly ahead of me to my right and lower, it looked like our speeds matched, I was using about 5300 rpm and trying to hold 26 indicated. I noticed that as we got toward the east end of the runway, John was climbing, and I actually had to start a left turn to stay out of his way. I assumed that he had decided thrust was a good substitute for lift... (Great idea, wish I'd thought of it) Third pass, once again, I never saw John, had no idea where he was, and once again, my goal was to fly as slow as possible without any possibility of a stall. Passing the end of the runway, I headed for home. I never used any flaps, my airplane is set up to have flaps at 1) a slight reflex, 2) in line with the ailerons, 3) slightly below the ailerons, 3) fifteen and 4) thirty degrees. They were aligned with the ailerons, I never touched them. To claim that in perfect conditions I might have been able to fly slower begs the question. Anyone can do well in perfect conditions, I was simply outflown. I think it would be accurate to say that if you can fly as well as John, (Being able to manage slow flight while constantly stalling & recovering reflects excellent pilot abilities, my compliments on an great display of skill) while using full flaps and 100 HP to help hold you up, then you probably do not need VG's, (Which enable you to fly equally slow at partial power without stalling. Which I did, no stalls at all.) But then there is 100 pounds difference between the airplanes, (Mine weighs about 550) so we are back to square one. Which is that both my MKIII and the FSII in the hangar next to me stall about 5 or 6 mph slower than they did w/o VG's, and handle much better just above the stall. And that John in Miss P'fer is motivated enough to outfly any VG modified Kolb around, and maybe good enough to pull it off. Conclusion: Rick is right, the controversy is what we live for, and this surely will not settle it. The fun never ends... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge I just got back fro the Kolb Homecoming. Richard Pike and John Hauck faced off for the Grand Vortex Generator Challenge. It was a draw!!!!!!! As a bit of a background: Richard Pike - He has a highly modified MKIII with the most VGs I have ever seen on one airplane with 582 Rotax. It is light, streamlined and clearly configured for slow flight. John Hauck - His airplane MKIII is clearly built for a different mission. It is in comparison more than 100 lbs heaver than Richards airplane and has no VGs. I assumed that John would surely be eating crow. They did three slow flight fly overs at app. 500ft. The winner would fly the slowest. John H. clearly wanted to win. John was flying with full flaps and had the power on to maintain altitude in a mush. On the first pass John must have stalled ten times and lost some altitude at one point but held even with Richard. On the last two passes John had the routine down and only stalled a few times but was on the edge again holding even with Richard. Richard was rock solid on all passes with not a hint of stall but not noticeably any slower. John said he saw Richard occasionally used flaps but it wasn't something we could see from the ground. It appeared Richard had a much easier time flying. As a final observation: With the weight differences Richard should have won. The effort John put in to keeping slowed down with Richard would make up for the weight difference. I find it hard to believe but it would appear that the VGs didn't help a bit. Will this settle the controversy? Don't think so. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Rick, Rev, Folks: We all had a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, everyone from Homer Kolb right on down to the newest guy that was shopping and wishing for his very first Kolb. The weather could not have been better. Food was great, at no cost to the participants. The Kolb folks worked extremely hard to insure we all had an enjoyable, fun time. My thanks to Bruce Chesnut for keeping Kolb alive and well for all of us to keep on flying the best there is, Kolb aircraft. Now for my side of the story. ;-) Richard asked me, just prior to his departure, if I still wanted to do the VG/regular guy flyoff. Sure! I was ready to do slow flight, short takeoff/landing, and climb. We could have also done slow speed maneuvering, but I forgot about that. Anyhow, we agreed to do the side by side slow flight contest. Spent about 10 seconds getting our act together. Richard was already cranked when I walked over to discuss it with him. I was down at the west end of the strip warming up my engine when Richard taxied up with an inop radio. Would have been much better if we could have had comm in the air, but we didn't. I couldn't tell him I was not ready for take off when he took off ahead of me. When my engine oil temp got up to 120F, I was ready to go. I caught up with Richard and got in on his right wing after he started his first slow flight run to the east. I admit, I did not get settled down until about midway down the strip and lost about 50 feet in the process. Horsepower had nothing to do with keeping my mkIII flying. I was turning 3000 rpm, using 40 degrees of flaps. It is more difficult flying off someone's wing, constantly looking at his aircraft, while trying to keep my mkIII as close to stall as I can. Once it nibbles over the edge, it is going to lose a little altitude, change pitch attitude, and require a lot of flying by the pilot to keep it airborne. When I got settled down, so did the mkIII, flying at 3000 rpm on the plus edge of the stall. Richard was actually flying lead, which demands he trust my ability to fly off him. As a non-military pilot, he probably did not understand that and was concerned that I was going to prang him, or him me. That was not going to happen. I would hope that Richard had enough confidence in me to know I would not fly under him so he could hit me if he stalled. The air was slightly turbulent which lent to better competition between Richard and I, since we were both flying in the same air. Since I thought Richard had shared with us that VGs made slow flight more comfortable, he would have felt that way and gotten his mkIII slowed down to max. If we ever do this again, there should be two runs, with each aircraft flying lead and wingman. Richard, you did not have to turn left to get out of my way on the end of the second run. I started a climb and right break at the east end of the strip because that run was complete. Again, had your radio been operational, I would have called out my climb and right break. However, I can assure you, you were never in any danger of me climbing any direction but straight out with a hard right break. I was flying right wing on Richard. Richard says he never touched his flaps. I watched them deploy, momentarily approximately 20 degrees several times during each run. At the time I could not understand why he would pull them down and immediately retract them. I still don't. I started my run with 40 degrees of flaps each run. Probably should have flown with half flaps, 20 degrees, but that is history. Richard claims his VGs allow him to fly slower. Guess if I had them, I could really fly slow. I do not know how much difference in weight there is between Richard's and my mkIII's, but probably much more than 100 lbs. My aircraft weighed approximately 630 lbs in 1994 with a 912. I can assure you airplanes do not get lighter with age. I would guess nearer to 150 to 200 lbs more than Richard's. I went to a heavier 912ULS in 2000. Richard is flying with a 582. I don't know if he flies with a BRS or not. Only one way to find out, have a weigh off. hehehe Anyhow, you all know how the weight of an adult passenger degrades the performance of a mkIII or any light airplane. Please take that into consideration when you think about this friendly competition. As far as settling the argument, I think I pretty much did that, between these two mkIII's, in front of the entire Kolb Homecoming. If nothing else, it convinced me, I don't need to change Homer's design to make my airplane fly better. Others may, and that is alright with me. ;-) All in all, I would call it a tie. At least Miss P'fer and I did not get whooped! That is Alabamian for beaten. Take care, john h hauck's holler, alabama mkIII 2724.7 hours 912ULS 156.2 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Nice reply, I expected nothing less. I do find it interesting that you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run because I never touched them. I wonder what you saw? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hauck To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Rick, Rev, Folks: We all had a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, everyone from Homer Kolb right on down to the newest guy that was shopping and wishing for his very first Kolb. The weather could not have been better. Food was great, at no cost to the participants. The Kolb folks worked extremely hard to insure we all had an enjoyable, fun time. My thanks to Bruce Chesnut for keeping Kolb alive and well for all of us to keep on flying the best there is, Kolb aircraft. Now for my side of the story. ;-) Richard asked me, just prior to his departure, if I still wanted to do the VG/regular guy flyoff. Sure! I was ready to do slow flight, short takeoff/landing, and climb. We could have also done slow speed maneuvering, but I forgot about that. Anyhow, we agreed to do the side by side slow flight contest. Spent about 10 seconds getting our act together. Richard was already cranked when I walked over to discuss it with him. I was down at the west end of the strip warming up my engine when Richard taxied up with an inop radio. Would have been much better if we could have had comm in the air, but we didn't. I couldn't tell him I was not ready for take off when he took off ahead of me. When my engine oil temp got up to 120F, I was ready to go. I caught up with Richard and got in on his right wing after he started his first slow flight run to the east. I admit, I did not get settled down until about midway down the strip and lost about 50 feet in the process. Horsepower had nothing to do with keeping my mkIII flying. I was turning 3000 rpm, using 40 degrees of flaps. It is more difficult flying off someone's wing, constantly looking at his aircraft, while trying to keep my mkIII as close to stall as I can. Once it nibbles over the edge, it is going to lose a little altitude, change pitch attitude, and require a lot of flying by the pilot to keep it airborne. When I got settled down, so did the mkIII, flying at 3000 rpm on the plus edge of the stall. Richard was actually flying lead, which demands he trust my ability to fly off him. As a non-military pilot, he probably did not understand that and was concerned that I was going to prang him, or him me. That was not going to happen. I would hope that Richard had enough confidence in me to know I would not fly under him so he could hit me if he stalled. The air was slightly turbulent which lent to better competition between Richard and I, since we were both flying in the same air. Since I thought Richard had shared with us that VGs made slow flight more comfortable, he would have felt that way and gotten his mkIII slowed down to max. If we ever do this again, there should be two runs, with each aircraft flying lead and wingman. Richard, you did not have to turn left to get out of my way on the end of the second run. I started a climb and right break at the east end of the strip because that run was complete. Again, had your radio been operational, I would have called out my climb and right break. However, I can assure you, you were never in any danger of me climbing any direction but straight out with a hard right break. I was flying right wing on Richard. Richard says he never touched his flaps. I watched them deploy, momentarily approximately 20 degrees several times during each run. At the time I could not understand why he would pull them down and immediately retract them. I still don't. I started my run with 40 degrees of flaps each run. Probably should have flown with half flaps, 20 degrees, but that is history. Richard claims his VGs allow him to fly slower. Guess if I had them, I could really fly slow. I do not know how much difference in weight there is between Richard's and my mkIII's, but probably much more than 100 lbs. My aircraft weighed approximately 630 lbs in 1994 with a 912. I can assure you airplanes do not get lighter with age. I would guess nearer to 150 to 200 lbs more than Richard's. I went to a heavier 912ULS in 2000. Richard is flying with a 582. I don't know if he flies with a BRS or not. Only one way to find out, have a weigh off. hehehe Anyhow, you all know how the weight of an adult passenger degrades the performance of a mkIII or any light airplane. Please take that into consideration when you think about this friendly competition. As far as settling the argument, I think I pretty much did that, between these two mkIII's, in front of the entire Kolb Homecoming. If nothing else, it convinced me, I don't need to change Homer's design to make my airplane fly better. Others may, and that is alright with me. ;-) All in all, I would call it a tie. At least Miss P'fer and I did not get whooped! That is Alabamian for beaten. Take care, john h hauck's holler, alabama mkIII 2724.7 hours 912ULS 156.2 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Richard: I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) john h mkIII Nice reply, I expected nothing less. I do find it interesting that you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run because I never touched them. I wonder what you saw? Richard Pike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi(at)supernet.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
John Hauck wrote: > Richard: > > I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop > momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been > hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) > > The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons > inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) Or the right ailerons rising, thus the hallucination of the flaps being lowered?? :-) ----- So It's not really about VG's but about who is a better liar?? Starting to sound like a fishing/hunting story! ~ Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Denny Rowe" <rowedenny(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
John H wrote I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) john h mkIII John, Rick N ( did not) see Rev Pike deploy his flaps, I think you should reread his post. He stated that you saw this but those on the ground did not. Anyway, glad you all had a good time and this gives us one more thing to debate until next year. Denny Rowe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
John & Richard It was a draw. No one lost. Go to your corners and stay there. I reread my post, I still didn't see any of Richards flaps Rick Neilsen ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hauck To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Richard: I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) john h mkIII Nice reply, I expected nothing less. I do find it interesting that you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run because I never touched them. I wonder what you saw? Richard Pike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: "beauford T" <beauford173(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed
....i can't stand it.... Sully, you save this shit from MAY....??? I don't have a deck of cards any more.... had one.... lost 'em in a card game... What mischief are you up to these days...? You guys figure out a way to steal Kennesaw yet...? b. ----- Original Message ----- From: possums To: beauford(at)tampabay.rr.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed At 08:50 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: ----- Howbout this one? This is the explanation of a pretty neat card trick you can do for friends over the Web. In order to do the trick, you'll need five things: a.. a deck of cards; b.. access to the Web; c.. someone to show the trick to; d.. an understanding of the trick's secret; and e.. practice. The effect of the trick is as follows: the magician opens this Web page but doesn't touch the computer for the duration of the trick. The spectator is given a deck of cards, and asked to choose any five cards; these cards can be chosen at random, or the spectator can choose five cards he wants to use. The magician takes one of the five cards out of the set, and asks his friend to enter the other four cards into a form on the Web page (a working version can be found below). The Guess button is pressed, and a picture of the fifth card is displayed. In this document, I explain everything about the trick except for its secret. But hints are given to figure out how the trick is done, and you can always beg me to tell you. http://www.minortriad.com/cards.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Yeah - you can beg all you want - but he won't tell you - hints come slow and hard took me two years to figure it out! How about if I give you a clue - ? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Hi Denny: You are absolutely correct. I went back to my deleted file and reread Rick's msg. Thanks for pointing out my obvious error. john h mkIII Rick N ( did not) see Rev Pike deploy his flaps, I think you should reread his post. He stated that you saw this but those on the ground did not. Denny Rowe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Thats amazing, not the outcome I would have expected. From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's ability to fly a Kolb. Sounds like everyone had a great time, wish I could have been there. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137567#137567 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: Lanny Fetterman <donaho(at)uplink.net>
Subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
If the wind is right I can fly backwards! : ) Lanny Fetterman N598 LF Do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's ability to fly a Kolb. > Mike Mike: We always have a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, rain or shine, calm or turbulent. How much time did you put on your airplane before you put he VGs on? There are people that make changes to Kolbs before they fly them, or.........with very little flight time in them. I often wonder if they can really make a good comparison, "before and after", in that situation? Do they really know the capabilities of the Kolb in the stock configuration? I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly. I very seldom fly like that except at touch down. That is the only time I need to get that close to the stall. I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer Kolb's wing. Putting any other airplane in that situation would have probably put them into an immediate full stall. The old mkIII just nibbled away and kept on flying. I don't think my flying had much to do with the mkIII's performance Sunday. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: "beauford T" <beauford173(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed
----- Original Message ----- From: beauford T To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed ....i can't stand it.... Sully, you save this shit from MAY....??? I don't have a deck of cards any more.... had one.... lost 'em in a card game... What mischief are you up to these days...? You guys figure out a way to steal Kennesaw yet...? b. ----- Original Message ----- From: possums To: beauford(at)tampabay.rr.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed At 08:50 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: ----- Howbout this one? This is the explanation of a pretty neat card trick you can do for friends over the Web. In order to do the trick, you'll need five things: a.. a deck of cards; b.. access to the Web; c.. someone to show the trick to; d.. an understanding of the trick's secret; and e.. practice. The effect of the trick is as follows: the magician opens this Web page but doesn't touch the computer for the duration of the trick. The spectator is given a deck of cards, and asked to choose any five cards; these cards can be chosen at random, or the spectator can choose five cards he wants to use. The magician takes one of the five cards out of the set, and asks his friend to enter the other four cards into a form on the Web page (a working version can be found below). The Guess button is pressed, and a picture of the fifth card is displayed. In this document, I explain everything about the trick except for its secret. But hints are given to figure out how the trick is done, and you can always beg me to tell you. http://www.minortriad.com/cards.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Yeah - you can beg all you want - but he won't tell you - hints come slow and hard took me two years to figure it out! How about if I give you a clue - ? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
I did expect that I would stir up some discussion from my post but I thought that it would be around the VG issue. The challenge showed me a few things. John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. The VGs must be doing something for so many people getting worked up over them but after this test I would suspect that people are able to fly at a higher angle of attack causing their air speed indicators to show slower speeds than actual. This test seems to say the actual speed is the same. We talked about this a Homecoming. There are a bunch of people that fly without the gap seals between the wing and ( flaps and ailerons) and also between the wings. They truly believe their changes are for the better but have never experienced what it would be like if they followed the plans. I had one of those guys land at my strip with no flap or aileron seals on his 582 powered MKIIIC. I watched in horror as he took off using every inch of my down hill 1400 ft strip and barely cleared the power lines another 1/2 mile beyond. If you make changes to Homer's design make sure you know what your doing. If you like it great but make sure you truly test it before you shoot you mouth off about how great it is to everyone. Again VGs may help but it would appear it isn't slow flight. Also we had a wonderful time at Homecoming. Flying around the airport with NO other place to land surely increases the pucker factor. This Michigan boy just aint used to not having a landing spot every 1/4 mile. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge > > From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's > ability to fly a Kolb. > > Mike > > > Mike: > > We always have a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, rain or shine, calm or > turbulent. > > How much time did you put on your airplane before you put he VGs on? > > There are people that make changes to Kolbs before they fly them, > or.........with very little flight time in them. I often wonder if they > can really make a good comparison, "before and after", in that situation? > Do they really know the capabilities of the Kolb in the stock > configuration? > > I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly. I very seldom fly like that > except at touch down. That is the only time I need to get that close to > the stall. I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer > Kolb's wing. Putting any other airplane in that situation would have > probably put them into an immediate full stall. The old mkIII just > nibbled away and kept on flying. I don't think my flying had much to do > with the mkIII's performance Sunday. > > Take care, > > john h > mkIII > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
John Hauck wrote: > > I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly. I very seldom fly like that > except at touch down. That is the only time I need to get that close to the > stall. I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer Kolb's > wing. Putting any other airplane in that situation would have probably put > them into an immediate full stall. The old mkIII just nibbled away and kept > on flying. I don't think my flying had much to do with the mkIII's > performance Sunday. > > Take care, > > john h > mkIII Just for what it's worth, When I first got my FS II, I did a fair bit of flying at minimum controllable airspeed just to get used to how it flies right on the edge. It really is very forgiving. When it does finally stall, there's a definite buffet, bump and then break but as long as I'm in coordinated flight, it just noses down straight ahead. Falling leaf stalls are on par with planes that have dihedral in the wing and the ailerons even still kind of work..... I don't really know how slow it'll go at MCA but it's really really slow. The only other planes I've flown that went that slow right below stall were my old quicksilver and also my trike with the single surface wing (and it had loads of washout of course). I read somewhere that Kolb intentionally designed the wing with a low aspect ratio so it could be built without washout and still be very stable. I can sure vouch for that at least in my FS II. I like the definite stall break, since it tells you right away you've exceeded the critical AOA and you need to correct it. Even my titan is a little more of a handful in a falling leaf stall and it's a total sweetheart in terms of stability and handling. The FS II will just mush down with little bits of rudder and aileron as long as you want..... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137603#137603 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: Vincent Nicely <vincenic1(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: : Kolb-List:Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever
Hi Richard and all, Thanks for the question. The throttle lever on my Firestar II with 460 hours broke just above where it is welded to the tab. I have submitted a picture of the broken part to fileshare so those who have Firestar aircraft with similar throttle levers can see the break to know where they might want to inspect. Fortunately for me, the lever broke while I was on the ground because I would not have been able to change the throttle setting had I been airbourne. The break occurred as I was opening the throttle and it occurred on a single push with no prior warning. Picture reference below. Vince Nicely Firestar II, 503 Rotax DCDI Richard Pike wrote: > > Was the aftermath of the flight more interesting than usual? > Or just more challenging? > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Email List Photo Shares" > > To: "Email List Photo Shares" > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:51 PM > Subject: Kolb-List: [ Vincent Nicely ] : New Email List Photo Share > Available! > > >> >> >> >> A new Email List Photo Share is available: >> >> Poster: Vincent Nicely >> >> Lists: Kolb-List >> >> Subject: Broken Throttle Lever on Firestar II >> >> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/vincenic1@embarqmail.com.09.25.2007/index.html >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> o Main Photo Share Index >> >> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare >> >> o Submitting a Photo Share >> >> If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the >> following information along with your email message and files: >> >> 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: >> 2) Your Full Name: >> 3) Your Email Address: >> 4) One line Subject description: >> 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: >> 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: >> >> Email the information above and your files and photos to: >> >> pictures(at)matronics.com >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DBforfun(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Subject: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds
I am in the process of licensing my Kolb LSA and removing the 2 stroke and installing a new 912ULS. For those running a 100 hp on a Mark III what are you using for gross weight? What is your empty weight? What are your flying speeds? cruise? stall? landing approach? VX? VY? Thanks in advance for all your help. Dan t ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: : Kolb-List:Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever
Date: Oct 02, 2007
> The throttle lever on my Firestar II with 460 hours broke just above > where it is welded to the tab. > Vince Nicely Vince: Some years ago I developed a low tech night landing system for my grass strip. It worked great. I could put the mkIII down right on the money every time. One pitch black dark night I came sailing back home from the local airport. Lined up on my reflectors on final. Pulled back the power and felt the throttle lever give. It had seperated at the flange and bent backwards. Throttle was to fast for landing on my short strip, and not enough power to climb back out through the slot and turn in the trees. I quickly reached down between the seats and was able to twist the flange and open the throttle a tad more, enough to get the mkIII to climb. Had Murphy been on the ball, he would have my single landing light burn out at the same time. I flew back to 08A, shut down the engine, and dead sticked a good landing. A couple of my buddies were still at the airport. They were wondering what the Hell Hauck was doing out on the runway. All they could hear was the engine rev up and shut down, as I maneuvered my way to the FBO to tie down for the night. Early on Old Kolb used 1/4" 4130 tubing for the throttle lever. After a few breaking, they changed over to 1/4" solid steel rod. Have not had a throttle problem in many years. Also, I don't shoot night landings into Gantt International Airport anymore. ;-) Don't fly at night unless it is absolutely necessary. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
> >If you make changes to Homer's design make sure you know what your doing. If >you like it great but make sure you truly test it before you shoot you mouth >off about how great it is to everyone. > >Again VGs may help but it would appear it isn't slow flight. > Rick, If you have not tried VG's don't knock em. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
> If you have not tried VG's don't knock em. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H: No one is knocking VG's. We simply did a comparative side by side test between a mkIII that had them, and one that didn't. I might add the aircraft had a lot of dissimilarities, weight, configuration, etc. The results have already been discussed. That is all the experience I have with them, although I did fly a FSII with VG's for a very short flight with VG's installed. Forgot they were on there until I landed and was asked if I tested them. Personally, flying an unfamiliar aircraft, I could not tell any difference. However, it was not a test or comparison of with or without. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: And then there were nine
I think we lost another Guinea last night. I was so tired when I got home I forgot to go mark my territory. I could be wrong, Corrigan might be out on one of his solo wanders. I hope so. I was only able to get a few pieces made before it started to rain. Just sprinkling right now, but if nothing else, we can put a length of poultry netting over the top, make a temporary door and get them into a safe place for the night. I better go get started vacuuming up water in the hangar. XXXOOO Oo-oo Goin' to the hangar with Dad Oo-oo Meow Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
> > > > If you have not tried VG's don't knock em. >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 > >Jack H: > >No one is knocking VG's. We simply did a comparative side by side test >between a mkIII that had them, and one that didn't. I might add the >aircraft had a lot of dissimilarities, weight, configuration, etc. > >The results have already been discussed. > John, Then what you are saying is that the dissimilarities made it an invalid test. The only valid test is a before and after on your own aircraft. If you are up to it, I will supply you with a set of VG's that can be temporarily mounted with electricians tape. That way you can fly and record your stall speed, land, tape on the VG's and the fly again to get your new slower stall speed. When you find that your stall speed is reduced you can pass them on to the next doubter. How many dips are there in a Mark III wing? Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
> Then what you are saying is that the dissimilarities made it an invalid > test. The only valid test is a before and after on your own aircraft. > Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H: No.................I am not saying the dissimilarities made it an invalid test. Was merely pointing out the differences, primarily in weight, between Richard's mkIII and my mkIII. On light aircraft, weight makes considerable difference in performance. I think my old gal made a slendid showing flying side by side with a similar, but lighter, Kolb. No thanks. Have no desire to make a VG test on my airplane. I am more than happy with the performance of my mkIII. I never said I doubted VGs. I have said I never found a need for them on it. I have flown Homer's airplanes for a while and like the way he designed them, and the way they perform. "How many dips in the mkIII wing?" Only the one in the pilot's seat! ;-) Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the 912 guys. I demoed the redrive VW engine on my MKIIIC for the attendees at Homecoming and except for forgetting to retract my flaps a few times I think we did OK. The engine ( I think ) performs about like a 80 HP 912. I will agree with everyone that it doesn't have the proven reliability of the 912. With that said is can be had for $7,000 to $10,000 less. It doesn't have the startup or shut down shakes. It idles as low as 800 RPM and was told by a few that it is quieter and better sounding than than a 912. I have never heard it fly by. I had one person say that they were undecided but after seeing it fly they were sold! Thanks for all the kind words at homecoming. One more thing I missed both flights of the direct drive 1/2 VW on the original Firestar but I'm told that it performed very well. With my experience with my direct engine I would never guessed it. The weekend was a learning experience. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com>
Subject: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Oct 02, 2007
I was impressed to see you fly it at the Homecomming, it does sound good. I 'm glad there is effort going toward that option on the engine mounts. I wo uld of been much more impressed if you didn't trailer it in (that said a lo t too). From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.netTo: kolb-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: V W Deminstration Flights at HomecomingDate: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:41:09 -0400 Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the 912 guy s. I demoed the redrive VW engine on my MKIIIC for the attendees at Homecoming and except for forgetting to retract my flaps a few times I think we did O K. The engine ( I think ) performs about like a 80 HP 912. I will agree wit h everyone that it doesn't have the proven reliability of the 912. With tha t said is can be had for $7,000 to $10,000 less. It doesn't have the startu p or shut down shakes. It idles as low as 800 RPM and was told by a few tha t it is quieter and better sounding than than a 912. I have never heard it fly by. I had one person say that they were undecided but after seeing it f ly they were sold! Thanks for all the kind words at homecoming. One more thing I missed both flights of the direct drive 1/2 VW on the orig inal Firestar but I'm told that it performed very well. With my experience with my direct engine I would never guessed it. The weekend was a learning experience. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Rick N: Do you think VG guys or 912 guys have the thinnest skin? Or is it VW guys??? Personally, until I found out the VW with a straight stinger exhaust was quieter and sounded better than a 912, I was pretty happy with your demo. ;-) Seriously, I too like the straight single stinger on your VW. I have always been partial to them on dune buggies and Formula V's. Nothing sounds sweeter than one winding out. I watched the 1/2 VW fly on the FS. It seemed to do a good job. Sorry, but I did not take time to take a close look at it and the installation. I used to fly with a friend who flew a N3 Pup and a 1/2 VW. I was flying a FS with point ign 447. He was always harping on me about how much more reliable a 4 stroke was than the 447 I was flying. We were crossing the mountains between my strip and his, 60 miles away. Got a call on the radio, like, "John, I am going down." Luckily there was a small hay field to land it. He broke a valve spring and the Pup was down. If a 912 lost a valve spring, most likely, it would also be going down. There is no perfect solution, but I am partial to my set up. Now, as far as an idle contest, I don't have a chance. Mine idles at 1,600 rpm. ;-) john h mkIII Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the 912 guys. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Oct 02, 2007
David I have app 25 hours on the pre production model of their redrive. It is doing well but flying in from Michigan over the area I saw over London would have said I was STUPID. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming I was impressed to see you fly it at the Homecomming, it does sound good. I'm glad there is effort going toward that option on the engine mounts. I would of been much more impressed if you didn't trailer it in (that said a lot too). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:41:09 -0400 Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the 912 guys. I demoed the redrive VW engine on my MKIIIC for the attendees at Homecoming and except for forgetting to retract my flaps a few times I think we did OK. The engine ( I think ) performs about like a 80 HP 912. I will agree with everyone that it doesn't have the proven reliability of the 912. With that said is can be had for $7,000 to $10,000 less. It doesn't have the startup or shut down shakes. It idles as low as 800 RPM and was told by a few that it is quieter and better sounding than than a 912. I have never heard it fly by. I had one person say that they were undecided but after seeing it fly they were sold! Thanks for all the kind words at homecoming. One more thing I missed both flights of the direct drive 1/2 VW on the original Firestar but I'm told that it performed very well. With my experience with my direct engine I would never guessed it. The weekend was a learning experience. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Casey" <1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
With much fear of flogging this deceased horse a little more.I will tread on.reluctantly.I will tread on. (sigh) Regretfully, I was unable to make the Fri. morning flight from Lower Alabama to London, KY thanks to 20+ mph winds on the ground and 35+ at 3K all on the nose.if the flight was required for life saving measures or national security I would have soldiered on but for the mere matter of personal enjoyment and camaraderie amongst fellow brethren on the wing, I decided 5-ish hours of getting thrown around the cockpit trying to avoid internal injury from the seatbelts didn't sound like a good use of a day off from work.heck neither did mowing the grass, but I degress. That said I didn't get to witness this "test" (of sorts).as has been stated already there were enough differences in this test to make the political polls look accurate ;-) (Ever wonder how they can have 2 polls asking the same question and be 10 points off, yet each poll only has a 3 point margin of error?) I degress again. Having read the list of differences going on , weights, flaps/no flaps, power levels, alignment of the planets, etc., etc. etc. (Mr. Pike was heading home was there luggage involved??? Might have negated some of the weight.who knows) All that being said, I will state for the record what that "test" proved.that airplane nuts hanging around a flyin can think of fun ways to kill time ;-) (My favorite has always been the feather duster toss and the bean bag toss at the cardboard targets.) Anyway I propose another "test" that will require no work whatsoever.Think back to the couple of dozen or so guys that have tried the VG thing in one form or another on just this list.do you remember a single one that flew there own plane before and after VG and said, "Crap that was a waste of a couple of hours and $100" and pulled them off? I haven't heard of a one.on the Kolb list, the Kitfox list, the Titan list, or the RANS S7 list. Oh, and the guy who mentioned maybe trying them on a C152.I've flown one of them before and after the VG install and I will say it was an improved handling airplane on the slow end. (Now why the VG STC on a C152 cost the $800 some-odd dollars is beyond me.Lord keep me from GA aircraft ownership.) I'll take the opinion of those many guys that HAVE tried them and flown the same airplane with and without them over the opinions of 1 or 2 that have not tossed in their couple of hours of spare time to see. I have brushed my teeth a couple of times a day for my entire life, but that doesn't make me a dentist. Having lots of hours in the same plane but exactly zero hours in that same plane with VG's doesn't make that person knowledgeable of VG effectiveness either. Anyway.That is my opinion of a reasonable test.and opinions are like a certain bodily orifice.everybody has one.so there ;-) Jeremy Casey ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "ronlee" <rlee468(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. It seems they can't see the forest for the trees. One plane was with full flaps and the other none. Why didn't both fly the same? Was the angle of attack the same on both? It sounds like one was constantly on the edge of stalling while the other wasn't. One can certainly fly a lot slower with flaps on then retracted! Which had more or any aileron control at or near the stall. One plane was heavy compared to the other. Which needed more power to maintain level flight? I'm sure the one with lots of flaps on! A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly. I have had VGs on two planes. I can say very truthfully that they each flew better (much better) with them. That is not to say these planes weren't well designed in the first place. Any design in this world can be improved. Be it a Kolb wing or a Stealth bomber. Especially on a fat winged, slow plane VGs can and will do wonders for the handling of your fat winged slow plane. I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the venting. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137695#137695 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Jeremy: >From a previous msg today: I never said I doubted VGs. I have said I never found a need for them on it. I have flown Homer's airplanes for a while and like the way he designed them, and the way they perform. I think my old gal made a slendid showing flying side by side with a similar, but lighter, Kolb. Should add to the above: ........but lighter, Kolb with VGs. I know it is difficult for VG'ers, but over the years and hours, I have not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's airplanes. Thanks for your attention, john h mkIII I have brushed my teeth a couple of times a day for my entire life, but that doesn't make me a dentist. Having lots of hours in the same plane but exactly zero hours in that same plane with VG's doesn't make that person knowledgeable of VG effectiveness either. Jeremy Casey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Hi Roger: "> Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. " If you are referring to me. I probably am stubborn. Never been known to be a sheep and get in line. See if you can read and understand this Roger: The flyoff was between me and Richard P. He has VGs. I don't. No attempt to have two identical mkIIIs. I can assure you we both had full aileron control. In fact, my old fat gal will fall out of the sky in a full stall and still have roll control. All Kolb models will do that. They have done that since I started flying the US in 1984. Rudder does not fit into the equation in a Kolb. If you call 3000 rpm with a 912ULS "more power", OK. " A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly." Roger, this comment above just blows me away. Do you realize what you would have to do to hang my airplane on the prop? It is a pusher. The high thrust line a minimal speed pushes the nose down, not pull or push it up. Anyhow, I was flying with 40 degrees of flaps, no rudder, and a little aileron. Don't need much aileron at one pubic hair on the plus side of the stall. Dangerous, unless only using rudder and no aileron?????? Horse crap!!! Kolbs are not rudder airplanes. They are aileron airplanes. They do not maintain roll control with rudder. Maybe for a few seconds, but when they start to drop a wing, rudder only aggrevates the situation. "which can flip you on your back quickly." The above is a totally rediculous statement. Are you speaking of getting a Kolb on its back by flying slowly with aileron??? I didn't know there was any other way to fly it. Have you ever tried to get a Kolb on its back? Throwing an elephant over your shoulder and on to its back would be a much easier task. "I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the venting." That's ok. Your vent did not make much sense. Now. What does it take to get it through your thick skull that I am most happy with my fat old mkIII. If they make your airplane fly better, I am very happy for you. Based on your comments above, you probably need them. BTW: Are you flying a Kolb? john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
It is obvious to me that the only John will ever fly with VG's on Miss P'Fer is for someone to sneak out to Haucks holler one night, put them on, and hope he does not preflight the next day [Wink] That being said, I hope I see John H. at Sun and Fun , or some other fly in and he can take my MK III around the patch and see what he thinks about a MKIII with the VG's. My plane is pretty close to his weight wise, and with the same engine and prop, but with VG's. John H knows these planes so well, it would be very informative to me to see what his opinion of them on the MK III are. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137721#137721 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: And then there were nine
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
What ??? -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137723#137723 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Firefly on Ebay
From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Steve, That sure is he FlagFly on Ebay...WOW.. I traded it to those fellas this spring for the KitFox..which I am enjoying immensely, about 60 hours in 3 months, and Sue has been flying with me too! finally after 28 years!...(as long as we dont care to see in front of us...which she complains about!) I just talked to those guys in Tenn a couple of weeks ago and one told me he was enjoying the Kolb....??? Well who knows...he had alot of time...several thousand hours in DC-3's.... and a piper 140 and a real nice straight tail 172 in the hangar also...maybe he decided the Kolb was just to light for him??? Anyway...John...I got a kick out of those pics of you in the Kolb Demo Fly' mixed in there in the ad... It seems that he and his partner didnt pay enough attention to my bird to even know what it looked like...or the differences between the 2. I figgered that ugly ole pilot in the demo bird would give it away tho!!!! I gotta tell you fellas...I really considered Flying down to the Homecoming, as I miss you all.... but figgered I would never live down the razzin from Trav and Donnie about flying a blind kitfox to a Kolb party. maybe, if I still have it next year...I will get some nerve! Been thinking about those goodies on the dessert table alot! -------- Don G. Central Illinois Kitfox IV Speedster Luscombe 8A http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137733#137733 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Movies from TNK Homecoming
From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot1(at)tx.rr.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Here is a couple of the MarkIII's that made it to the Homecoming. -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137753#137753 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jb_at_tnk_2007_a_117.wmv http://forums.matronics.com//files/jh_at_tnk_2007_b_132.wmv ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: And then there were nine
See comment to Rick Nielsen. We have a cougar that's been making dinner of our guinea hens. Sorry about that guys, my girl friend's e-mail address is right below the Kolb address on my quick contact list. Rick On 10/2/07, JetPilot wrote: > > > What ??? > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have > !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137723#137723 > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "apilot(at)webtv.net" <apilot(at)webtv.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Group, Here is what I do not understand. On Richards and on the Cub Crafter site, the outboard VGs are moved forward. On a 737 airliner, they are moved aft in the aileron area. Someone please explain. John is right about the Kolb not being a rudder airplane. However, mine is because I added lifting winglet to the wings. Now, it flys like a Champ or any other airplane with dihedral. The downside is, of course, in the crosswind landing situations. But with good aileron technique which can provide useful adverse yaw to hold runway alignment, the lifting winglets should not be a problem. Mine is still an aileron airplane too. I will add VGs soon, but I wish that I knew more about the outboard locations. My interst is not so much in flying slower (I stall at exactly 40 mph with no tendency to drop a wing). What I am looking for is a more progressive stall so that my gear will quit bending when the tail wheel hits first. I am machining fiberglass gear legs now, but they look kind of weak. We shall see. Vic in Sacramento Original Message: ----------------- From: John Hauck jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:06:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Hi Roger: "> Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. " If you are referring to me. I probably am stubborn. Never been known to be a sheep and get in line. See if you can read and understand this Roger: The flyoff was between me and Richard P. He has VGs. I don't. No attempt to have two identical mkIIIs. I can assure you we both had full aileron control. In fact, my old fat gal will fall out of the sky in a full stall and still have roll control. All Kolb models will do that. They have done that since I started flying the US in 1984. Rudder does not fit into the equation in a Kolb. If you call 3000 rpm with a 912ULS "more power", OK. " A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly." Roger, this comment above just blows me away. Do you realize what you would have to do to hang my airplane on the prop? It is a pusher. The high thrust line a minimal speed pushes the nose down, not pull or push it up. Anyhow, I was flying with 40 degrees of flaps, no rudder, and a little aileron. Don't need much aileron at one pubic hair on the plus side of the stall. Dangerous, unless only using rudder and no aileron?????? Horse crap!!! Kolbs are not rudder airplanes. They are aileron airplanes. They do not maintain roll control with rudder. Maybe for a few seconds, but when they start to drop a wing, rudder only aggrevates the situation. "which can flip you on your back quickly." The above is a totally rediculous statement. Are you speaking of getting a Kolb on its back by flying slowly with aileron??? I didn't know there was any other way to fly it. Have you ever tried to get a Kolb on its back? Throwing an elephant over your shoulder and on to its back would be a much easier task. "I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the venting." That's ok. Your vent did not make much sense. Now. What does it take to get it through your thick skull that I am most happy with my fat old mkIII. If they make your airplane fly better, I am very happy for you. Based on your comments above, you probably need them. BTW: Are you flying a Kolb? john h mkIII -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft Windows and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Only really valid way to test the merits of VG's is before and after on the same plane. Before: My FSII started getting mushy feeling below 40 mph, and pretty much quit flying at 35. The stall was mushy and very forgiving without any tendency to fall off on a wing, and aileron control was good throughout. On landing, there was not very much cushion effect from ground effect - no float. After: Control is firm and rock-solid right down to stall break at 30 mph. Stall is abrupt and rudder is more effective than aileron keeping the wings level. During landing flare, the plane floats in ground effect more than without the VG's. If the air is reasonably smooth, I can comfortably fly final at 45 mph indicated - had to use 50 mph without the VG's I like the VG's and believe they are a great help in getting into short tight fields. My recommendation for a new Kolb pilot is to get 25-50 hours without the VG's in your plane, and then install them. Bet you won't take them off - ever! The comments about imagination and pitot/static position error don't fly. The before and after speeds cross check with my GPS. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137789#137789 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tc1917" <tc1917(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Homecoming07
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Just as I promised, I posted most all of the photos I took at the Homecoming on my web site. Address is: http://www.homestead.com/southernflyers/ or http://www.homestead.com/southernflyers/Homecoming07.html Hope you all enjoy. Ted & Beverly Cowan, Alabama ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net>
Subject: TNK Homecoming & my first Kolb
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Mission accomplished. As a result of making the trip to Kolb Headquarters, I got to see more Kolbs in one day than I'll probably see in year or more. After getting to sit in a few FS II's and speaking with their owners and input from Travis at Kolb, I left early Saturday morning to catch a flight to South Carolina where I looked at and later that day bought my first plane, a FS II. Man, I am really looking forward to completing my flight training and getting this lady home where I can take her for a ride. Thanks for all the help and I hope to see yall soon at a fly-in somewhere. Jimmy Young Houston FS II N7043P ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2007
slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: > Fly slower??? How slow do you NEED to fly? It took me 3 years to > even pull down the flap handle one notch. > :) :) :) The ability to fly slow in a Kolb is a HUGE safety factor. If my engine ever quits, and I am going to be landing in one of those plowed fields, or tall beans, or whatever is in there, having the mains touch down at 30 MPH instead of 40 MPH could make all the difference in the world as to how much damage I do to the plane, and weather I get hurt or not. Having the ability to fly 10 MPH slower around the pattern, and 10 MPH slower on final again is a HUGE safete factor. Not getting into that stall spin accident until the plane is 10 MPH slower could make the difference between it ever happening or not. On my MK III, my indicated stall changed by a full 10 MPH, my touchdown speed decreased by 10 MPH, my minimum comfortable approach speed went from 60 to 50 MPH. The control in the slow speed range feels much better, no mushy feeling at all. All this with no downside, I will never take them off. Exactly where to install VG's are expained very well in the directions. I put my VG's on with double sided 3M automobile trim tape from advance auto so I could take them off if I did not like them. The size, angle, and placement of VG's is critical. I would suggest buying the ones we know will work for 100 bucks, rather than spending days fabricating ones that may or may not work well. WWW.LANDSHORTER.COM Its the best 100 bucks you will ever spend on your Kolb. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137848#137848 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
In a message dated 10/3/2007 11:40:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes: Having the ability to fly 10 MPH slower around the pattern, and 10 MPH slower on final again is a HUGE safete factor. Not getting into that stall spin accident until the plane is 10 MPH slower could make the difference between it ever happening or not. On my MK III, my indicated stall changed by a full 10 MPH, my touchdown speed decreased by 10 MPH, my minimum comfortable approach speed went from 60 to 50 MPH. Mike, At the Homecoming I watched the 1/2 VW Firestar Pilot fly his pattern and approach at minimum airspeed and nose high attitude. The first time was scary, I thought he stalled it at 80 feet. Have you considered that all other things aside, Potential Kinetic energy is a function of airspeed and altitude and that while flying your approach at minimum airspeed you are giving both of them away at the same time? Why not keep something in the Bank for that unexpected gust of air or the "Kolb Quit" Demon out there? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2007
You are so right Steve, I do not make a habbit out of flying slow approaches. I was merely reporting what I have tested and could do. I typically fly my approaches power clear back to idle stop, 65-70 MPH diving like a bat out of hell :) But it is very nice to know, if I something unexpected ever happens, or if I just ever screw up my flying that bad, the grim reaper wont come knocking for another 10 MPH. The slower the plane can fly and land, it gives me a lot more room for error, and the safer I am. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137902#137902 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Casey" <1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 03, 2007
I know it is difficult for VG'ers, but over the years and hours, I have not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's airplanes. Thanks for your attention, john h John, Never said they were "required" on a Kolb or any other plane for that matter. Their benefits are well known and understood.nothing "difficult" to understand.They are standard performance enhancements to serious Supercubs, Huskys, etc. .was nothing "WRONG" with those planes before.they just perform better with them. Did Homer design our wonderful planes with a "requirement" for a BRS? I don't think so, yet many of Homer's wonderfully designed airplanes still wear them as standard equipment (including yours).what's wrong with another layer of safety equipment? Especially one that weighs next to nothing, cost next to nothing, and you can enjoy the benefits of it year round? You never have to send it back in for repack either. John, you are well respected in the Kolb clan and rightfully so. You have modified and "improved" the Kolb aircraft you have played with more than probably any other half dozen people. You developed longer and stronger gear legs, bigger fuel tanks, wing reinforcements, more comfy seats, dual controls in the M3's, and heaven only knows what else. Why you refuse to stick a few little (removeable) plastic wedges on your plane and try them out before deciding they are not "required" or possibly a safety benefit is beyond me. Jeremy "having no difficulty" Casey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 03, 2007
> OK next year some one is going to install REAL high lift low speed devices > like leading edge Slats right? > > Kolb Stork!!!! ???? [Wink] > > -------- > Ray Ray: For what? john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: TNK Homecoming & my first Kolb
Date: Oct 03, 2007
> Now if only we could get enough of a west coast Kolb presence to have a Kolb shindig out here to. > > -------- > Ray Ray: Where have you been the last five years? We have had the Unplanned/Unorganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, UT, 450 sm, by air, from the Riverside County Courthouse. Stay awake now. We will probably have another the third weekend of May 2008. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2007
If you saw what was on the approach end of the runway, I have a choice of power lines, various chain link fences, or a bunch of Palm trees in the nursery [Shocked] Engines like to quit at idle sometimes, so I try to pull the power off with the idea that it might not come back. I did not know you were flying other airplanes Steve, what were you flying before the Kolb ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137986#137986 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: TNK Homecoming & my first Kolb
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2007
jdy100(at)comcast.net wrote: > > Man, I am really looking forward to completing my flight training and getting this lady home where I can take her for a ride. Thanks for all the help and I hope to see yall soon at a fly-in somewhere. > > Jimmy Young > Houston > FS II N7043P Its as sweet as you think its gonig to be. I flew Cessnas and other things for years where you had to twist your nick to look out some porthole to see outside. The first time I got into my Mark III and could scan the entire pattern for traffic, see up and see down, and the entire panorama of the horizon left to right it was nothing short of awesome. Congratulations, you are going to have a great time with your Kolb. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137987#137987 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Dan I haven't seen a response to your questions. The real answer is they are different on every airplane. Remember these aren't production airplanes. The weight for example will vary for the same model and engine by 150 lbs. or more. You need to weigh your own plane and do the weight and balance calculations.The only way to get the flying speeds is to fly it. If your DAR doesn't understand this get another one fast. Sorry Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: DBforfun(at)aol.com To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds I am in the process of licensing my Kolb LSA and removing the 2 stroke and installing a new 912ULS. For those running a 100 hp on a Mark III what are you using for gross weight? What is your empty weight? What are your flying speeds? cruise? stall? landing approach? VX? VY? Thanks in advance for all your help. Dan t ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Subject: Re: TNK Homecoming & my first Kolb
In a message dated 10/3/2007 6:50:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, jdy100(at)comcast.net writes: Man, I am really looking forward to completing my flight training and getting this lady home where I can take her for a ride. Thanks for all the help and I hope to see yall soon at a fly-in somewhere. Jimmy Young Houston FS II N7043P Is that Houston Texas? Ed (FF# 62) In Houston ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2007
From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird(at)cavediver.com>
Subject: Re: TNK Homecoming & my first Kolb
Ed -- Yup, Jimmy's in Houston. He's going to borrow my trailer to retrieve his FSII. -- Robert On 10/3/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 6:50:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, > jdy100(at)comcast.net writes: > > Man, I am really looking forward to completing my flight training and > getting this lady home where I can take her for a ride. Thanks for all the > help and I hope to see yall soon at a fly-in somewhere. > > Jimmy Young > Houston > FS II N7043P > > Is that Houston Texas? > > Ed (FF# 62) In Houston > > > ------------------------------ > Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds
Dan, Not having a 912 on a MkIII, I was hesitant to tell you what Rick just did. One other thing you should know. I have seen others given advice on this forum to "just make the maximum weight what ever you want", or words to that effect. The trouble with that is that in your operating limitations under paragraph 6 you will be asked to put these words in your aircraft's logbook. "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The flight test was completed under all the following conditions: "Maximum operating weight, maximum demonstrated airspeed and maximum demonstrated stall speed" This is what ends your phase 1 testing and allows you to use your aircraft as a two place and outside of your test area. So whatever you put in your weight and balance as Maximum Take Off Weight (MTOW) you'd better be ready to pile sand bags (the cheap way, although it's bulky), or lead shot bags (real pricey) into the passenger seat and fly it that way. This is why you build light, because every pound of engine and whizbang gotta havums you put in the airplane subtracts from your useful load. Add enough and you may find yourself with a single passenger two seat aircraft, or a two place aircraft with a 50 mile range. Rick On 10/3/07, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > > Dan > > I haven't seen a response to your questions. The real answer is they are > different on every airplane. Remember these aren't production airplanes. The > weight for example will vary for the same model and engine by 150 lbs. or > more. You need to weigh your own plane and do the weight and balance > calculations.The only way to get the flying speeds is to fly it. If your > DAR doesn't understand this get another one fast. > > Sorry > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* DBforfun(at)aol.com > *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:13 AM > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds > > > I am in the process of licensing my Kolb LSA and removing the 2 stroke > and installing a new 912ULS. > > For those running a 100 hp on a Mark III what are you using for gross > weight? > > What is your empty weight? > > What are your flying speeds? > > cruise? > > stall? > > landing approach? > > VX? > > VY? > > Thanks in advance for all your help. > > Dan > > > t > > > ------------------------------ > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 04, 2007
I know it is difficult for VG'ers, but over the years and hours, I have not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's airplanes. >> Hi , Depends on `requirement`. To fly the way Homer intended I am sure that VG`s are not required. The plane is obviously great and fills most peoples requirements without them. Just look at JH`s flights for starters. John is obviously a master of the plane and I am sure there are many others However in the UK for the Extra to qualify as a `microlight` (not exctly the same as your Ultralight) you MUST have the VG`s fitted or the stalling speed will be too high. In the face of the testing that was done to establish this it is foolish to maintain that VG`s make no difference. If that was the case there would be no Xtra flying in the UK. Hope to be back flying myself soon. All paperwork issued. Test Pilot booked for 19th Oct. Hope the weather holds. Its great today, blue sky, no wind. I may do some taxying later to try to get my hand in again. Must make sure that I do not accidentally taxy too fast ........? Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:38:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes: I did not know you were flying other airplanes Steve, what were you flying before the Kolb ? Mike Long EZ N27SB. 90 Kts in the pattern, 70 Kts on Final with the nose high and everything hanging out. It is about as far away from a Firefly you can get. steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Subject: Re: What ever floats yer boat...
In a message dated 10/4/2007 9:39:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, herbgh(at)juno.com writes: ONe similarity Steve---they both will float!! :-) Herb Except the Firefly is reusable after a water landing Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>
Fellow 912 Drivers - I discovered an error in the official Rotax manuals that specify the torque value for the lock-nuts that secure the exhaust system. These are the copper M8 lock-nuts - two at each exhaust port. The Rotax 912 Installation Manual (sec 10.1) clearly states that these nuts should be torqued to 177 inch-pounds. While doing maintenance today, I was reinstalling the exhaust system on my 912ul, and tightened these lock-nuts to the specified value. Afterward, I noticed that the two studs were distorted - they were no longer pointed straight out of the cylinder head, but skewed a bit from being overtightened. I called Lockwood, and the tech guy there looked up the torque value from the Rotax 912 Illustrated Parts Manual. The number listed there was 105 ft-lb. I had WAY overtightened those nuts! Looks like I'll be ordering a pair of new exhaust studs. Fortunately, this was a cheap lesson for me - they cost only $3.50 each. But it mad me mad that, in my attempt to do the right thing, the Rotax manual provided wrong information. So the lessons here worth passing on to you all are: 1) The torque value for the exhaust system nuts listed in the Installation Manual is WRONG, and 2) Refer to the Illustrated Parts Manual for all torques for your Rotax engine. I hope this helps someone avoid the mistake I made. Happy flying ... Dennis Kirby Mark-III Classic, 912ul, in Cedar Crest, NM ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: One More Movie From TNK Homecoming 2007
From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot1(at)tx.rr.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2007
The last movie I have been able to put together is of JT's FireStarII. I would very much like to get a copy of any video you shot of the Kolbra at the Homecoming. Email me off list and we can work out a deal. I also updated my website with a few new photos. -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138090#138090 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jt_at_tnk_2007_443.wmv ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 04, 2007
I nominate Hauck as our test pilot. > > Dennis Kirby Thanks, but no thanks. You are more than qualified to fly your own test and make your own decisions. I can assure you, I have no desire or requirement to fly any slower than I was flying off Richard Pike's wing last Saturday afternoon. That flight convinced me there was no appreciable difference in slow flight capability between the two mkIII's. I have no slow flight control problems in my mkIII that need fixing. The only time I suffer from "Kolb quit" is when I get below the stall speed. ;-) By now, you all are probably, I hope, getting the message that I am not interested in VG's. Should I ever have another airplane that does not fly as well as Kolb aircraft, I might investigate the possibility of VG's saving the day. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: TNK Homecoming & my first Kolb
From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2007
That is a nice plane you got from Avid. I almost bought it but it just wasn't going to workout for me. I need a 2 seat plane. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138111#138111 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New CRs - 4 Oct 07
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>
Team - Looks like Lockheed-Martin has found a bunch of stuff to fix lately while they've got the turret ball opened up for service ... four new CRs received ATP this week: CR-1775, "Allow BC/FC Engagement to Manual State Transition" (a BC/FC-Software CR) Currently, BMC4I software does not allow BC/FC to transition into the "Manual" state during an engagement sequence. So when BC/FC encounters an occasional failure during any of their engagement states, the system cannot be easily reset. By modifying the BMC4I Software Requirement Spec (SRS) to allow BC/FC to transition from an "Engagement" state to a "Manual" state, the BC/FC system can then be cleanly shut down, either manually (by the operator), or automatically. CR-1776, "Turret Solar Avoidance Hardware Fixes" (a BC/FC CR) Certain areas and components of the turret ball may be damaged by exposure to incoming solar radiation due to out-gassing contamination and overexposure of the Optical Inspection System cameras. This CR describes items to be repaired and the repair methods which will reduce risk of damage to the system during HPSI testing. CR-1777, "Turret Ball Tuned-Mass-Dampers" (a BC/FC CR) Flight testing has revealed certain dynamic wavefront disturbances that are attributable to harmonic vibrations within the BC/FC beam train - specifically, within the Beam Expander. These vibrations contribute to jitter and degraded optical performance. This CR installs several (up to 38) Tuned Mass Dampers (TMDs, which serve as vibration suppression devices) in the turret assembly to minimize vibration in this part of the optical path. CR-1778, "Secondary Mirror Tip/Twang" (a BC/FC CR) Flight testing has (also) revealed that excessive vibrations in the Secondary Mirror during flight is causing the mirror to momentarily move to its extreme limit ("twang") in the tip and tilt axis. This results in a control loop failure, which triggers a termination of the engagement sequence. This CR revises the operating clearance of the torsional stops in the Secondary Mirror tip/tilt axis, in order to eliminate twanging of the mirror. You can find the CRs here: HYPERLINK "file:///\\\\ABLSERVER11\\SPO_General\\Meetings\\Boards\\Change_Board\\C Rs1600-1799\\CR1775PC0.doc"S:\Meetings\Boards\Change_Board\CRs1600-1799\ CR1775PC0.doc HYPERLINK "file:///\\\\ABLSERVER11\\SPO_General\\Meetings\\Boards\\Change_Board\\C Rs1600-1799\\CR1776PC0.doc"S:\Meetings\Boards\Change_Board\CRs1600-1799\ CR1776PC0.doc HYPERLINK "file:///\\\\ABLSERVER11\\SPO_General\\Meetings\\Boards\\Change_Board\\C Rs1600-1799\\CR1777PC0.doc"S:\Meetings\Boards\Change_Board\CRs1600-1799\ CR1777PC0.doc HYPERLINK "file:///\\\\ABLSERVER11\\SPO_General\\Meetings\\Boards\\Change_Board\\C Rs1600-1799\\CR1778PC0.doc"S:\Meetings\Boards\Change_Board\CRs1600-1799\ CR1778PC0.doc Dennis Kirby ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2007
177 inch pounds is way to much torque for a bolt that size.... The fact that it goes into aluminum make it worse [Shocked] Lucky its just a bent stud rather than it being stripped out of the cylinder head. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138127#138127 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 04, 2007
> > > > Rick Neilsen wrote: << The challenge showed me a few things. > John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as > Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to > me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am curious as to why you believe there was no benefit to the VG's? It seems to me that if Richard had pulled his flaps he could have flown slower, or am I missing something there? I consider John a friend of mine and a exceptional pilot. A bit hard headed on occasion, but then that includes all of us Alpha types. That John was able to fly his plane at that speed and configuration is not a surprise to me at all, However you are overlooking two other factors. Richards lack of a radio causing him to fly blind in a formation, ( which I understand he has not done before) and the fact that it was not necessary for him to deploy flaps to fly at a speed which required that John use them. If you "have nots" don't want more stability in turns, slow flight, increased cushion at landing, less bounces, and you are as good a pilot (of which I have little doubt) as John, then don't put the things on! Just spare me the rationalization. :-) Larry, Oregon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Hey Larry Good to hear from you. It was great talking to at Monument Valley. I will respond to this one LAST time. Would all you VG guys please read my post again before you post. John's plane is a good 20% heaver than Richard's this does increase John's stall speed. I think John's heaver gross weight fairly well balances his use of flaps. OK lets say JUST for argument's sake John's increased weight didn't lower his stall speed at all. His use of flaps doesn't reduce his stall speed by the amount everyone CLAIMS the VGs do. To hear some of you talk you would think VGs would give everyone a 10 MPH stall speed. In the clip you attached I said that VGs didn't give Richard the "claimed" advantage I didn't say no advantage. I'm with John's point of view on this one VGs don't appear to give enough benefit on a Kolb that would make me want to put them on my plane. I have a open mind on this and would change my mind if I could see a significat differance. I was there and I just didn't see it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick Neilsen wrote: << The challenge showed me a few things. > > John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as > > Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to > > me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------ > I am curious as to why you believe there was no benefit to the VG's? It > seems to me that if Richard had pulled his flaps he could have flown slower, > or am I missing something there? I consider John a friend of mine and a > exceptional pilot. A bit hard headed on occasion, but then that includes all > of us Alpha types. That John was able to fly his plane at that speed and > configuration is not a surprise to me at all, However you are overlooking > two other factors. Richards lack of a radio causing him to fly blind in a > formation, ( which I understand he has not done before) and the fact that it > was not necessary for him to deploy flaps to fly at a speed which required > that John use them. > > If you "have nots" don't want more stability in turns, slow flight, > increased cushion at landing, less bounces, and you are as good a pilot (of > which I have little doubt) as John, then don't put the things on! Just spare > me the rationalization. :-) > Larry, Oregon > > > > > >
Hey Larry
 
Good to hear from you. It was great talking to at Monument Valley.
 
I will respond to this one LAST time. Would all you VG guys please read my post again before you post. John's plane is a good 20% heaver than Richard's this does increase John's stall speed. I think John's heaver gross weight fairly well balances his use of flaps. OK lets say JUST for argument's sake John's increased weight didn't lower his stall speed at all. His use of flaps doesn't reduce his stall speed by the amount everyone CLAIMS the VGs do. To hear some of you talk you would think VGs would give everyone a 10 MPH stall speed.
 
In the clip you attached I said that VGs didn't give Richard the "claimed" advantage I didn't say no advantage.
 
I'm with John's point of view on this one VGs don't appear to give enough benefit on a Kolb that would make me want to put them on my plane. I have a open mind on this and would change my mind if I could see a significat differance. I was there and I just didn't see it.
 
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
 

> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell"
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick Neilsen wrote: << The challenge showed me a few things.
> > John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as
> > Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to
> > me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------
> I am curious as to why you be lieve there was no benefit to the VG's? It
> seems to me that if Richard had pulled his flaps he could have flown slower,
> or am I missing something there? I consider John a friend of mine and a
> exceptional pilot. A bit hard headed on occasion, but then that includes all
> of us Alpha types. That John was able to fly his plane at that speed and
> configuration is not a surprise to me at all, However you are overlooking
> two other factors. Richards lack of a radio causing him to fly blind in a
> formation, ( which I understand he has not done before) and the fact that it
> was not necessary for him to deploy flaps to fly at a speed which required
> that John use them.
>
> If you "have nots" don't want more stability in turns, slow flight,
> increased cushion at landing, less bounces, and you are as good a pilot (of
> which I have little doubt) as John, then don't put the things on! J ust sp

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: I Passed!
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2007
I just returned from the airport. My Firestar KXP is now an airworthy and official experimental light sport aircraft. The DAR was thorough, but found no squawks on the plane an only one date missing on the paperwork. I'm glad I spent the money on the EAA transition kit. It was helpful. I gave him $250 and he gave me a pink slip and five hourws to fly off within 50 miles of the field. I took it around the pattern twice to celebrate before a rain squall prompted me to fold and head home. It was nice to be "Experimental 1782 Charlie" instead of "yellow ultralight". The DAR said the FAA is recieving over two hundred N number applications a day right now. He has inspected more than 20 planes my neck of the woods and has several more on the schedule for this weekend. The FAA inspector in Portland (on the other side of the state from me) said he is inspecting ten planes a week or more. Later, -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1862C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138185#138185 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Carb ice & Cuyuna?
Had some difficulty this evening which sounds like carb ice but I'd like any other thoughts. This is my Ultrastar, with the Cuyuna ULII-02 engine, single Mikuni carb. Takeoff was fine, full power (6200 rpm), and I stayed in the pattern and throttled back to 4500 on downwind. After not too long, I thought I heard some roughness in the engine so I pushed the throttle forward, but that had no effect other than making the engine bog and sound as if it would quit. Retart the throttle and it continued to run, and naturally I landed immediately. On the ground, the intake manifold was dripping wet. Started the engine, and again it developed full power. I let it run at 4500 for awhile, then shut down and pulled the air filter, no sign of ice as far as I could see. Took off again, same thing, though this time after a bit of playing with the throttle I was able to get full power again. Temps were in the upper 60's and very humid; as I was flying the fog was rolling in off the water (the airport is 8 miles from the coast). No data for my field, but at an airport in the coast 13 miles away the temperature dropped through the 64 dewpoint while I was airborne. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Subject: Re: I Passed! kxp
Roger I had a kxp and I loved it with a little bit of luck that plane may fly 20 moor years while one not registered will probably be scraped for parts . Malcolm Michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Hi Mike: I am the last person I know that would want to drag out the "great VG debate". However, could you expand on your statement below, please? Telling me you put them on for added safety leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Did you get the added safety you were looking for, and how did that happen? Thanks, john h mkIII Best $100. I've spent on my FSII. Not for the enhanced performance but for the added safety!!! MEM FSII 450hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2007
These things can happen, but I would encourage everyone to download the most current manuals on line and sign up for automatic notification of manual changes through ROAN. The torque values of a number of nuts and bolts were changed a while back in a manual revision. There is a new Heavy maint. and Installation manual out. There is a new SB out as of today. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138236#138236 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Date: Oct 05, 2007
While we are on the torque value topic, the Warp Drive spec for those little 1/4" hub bolts (4 per blade on the HP) is 120 in lbs. Three years ago, while assembling mine, one of those "genyoowine" aircraft nuts stripped out while attaining that value. -Made me feel a little creepy as you might understand. OK, maybe that was a defective nut but still that is a lot of stress for such a small diameter. - teensy threads too. I now use 110 in lbs and retorque after either a good ground runup or a short test hop. BB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Casey" <1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 05, 2007
However, could you expand on your statement below, please? Telling me you put them on for added safety leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Did you get the added safety you were looking for, and how did that happen? Thanks, john h mkIII For Pete sake.it is kind of like when your wife asks you, "Why do you love me?".you will get cooked on that question no matter what you say. When you come to the table with your mind made up you will never understand the other point of view. I had a arrogant (sounding) jerk come up to me at SERFI after seeing the VG's on my wing and ask, "What aerodynamic problem are these on there to fix?".I just said the problem of wanting it to stall even slower and more gentle than it already did. What you fellows saw at the great "test" was 2 different planes, flown in different configurations, at different weights, at different power settings.in other words, from an engineering standpoint you saw nothing!!! The flaps alone can account for a huge increase in max Cl. If the ground rules had been set beforehand, full flaps/no flaps, idle power only, load the planes to similar weights, etc. it would have been in the neighborhood of a valid test, but the true VALID test is flying the same plane WITHOUT them and then WITH them.no other differences except the effect from the VG's. I'LL STATE AGAIN.THE "BEST" TEST OF THEIR BENEFIT IS THE COUPLE OF DOZEN GUYS ON THIS LIST ALONE THAT HAVE TRIED THEM AND SAID THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THEM OFF AND THAT IT WAS THE BEST $100 THEY HAD SPENT ON THEIR PLANE. If you guys that have NOT actually tried them don't want to then fine, but DON'T say they have no benefits! Us that HAVE actually tried them are not stupid... I have said several times that the improvement is not just a number on the airspeed indicator but how it "feels" when that airspeed indicator is getting near the bottom. I will guarantee that the absolute bottom number will be lower than before, but that isn't the major thing. I just can't get my head around why you guys are so hell-bent against something you haven't actually tried.If you try it and can say it was a waste of time,money,etc. then fine you might have a dog in the fight, but why do you even HAVE an opinion of something you have NO EXPERIENCE with? Like the other major "controversy" of the Kolb-list.SEAFOAM.I never say anything about it, cause.you guessed it .I NEVER HAVE TRIED IT!!! Sorry, but it didn't interest me!!! Oh well!!! But I haven't had ANYTHING to say about it, pro or con, because I don't know!!! Nuff said. Jeremy P.S. From the way I'm ranting about this, you'd think I sold them.Legal disclaimer.I don't make a penny off anyone installing them or not ;-) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2007
From: "Vic Peters" <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Hey Bob, I noticed that if I loosened the 6 main prop bolts on Warps HPL hub it put tremendous presure on the smaller inside bolts. Maybe I should be replacing mine, although I doubt anything would happen even if all those smaller blade bolts fell out. Vic ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Bob, Interesting, the 8mm bolts on my Powerfin are torqued to 175 in.lb. into the steel prop flange and into the aluminum body of the prop hub per the instructions that come with the prop. Rick On 10/5/07, robert bean wrote: > > > While we are on the torque value topic, the Warp Drive spec for > those little 1/4" hub bolts > (4 per blade on the HP) is 120 in lbs. Three years ago, while > assembling mine, one of those > "genyoowine" aircraft nuts stripped out while attaining that value. > -Made me feel a little creepy as you might understand. OK, maybe > that was a defective > nut but still that is a lot of stress for such a small diameter. - > teensy threads too. > I now use 110 in lbs and retorque after either a good ground runup or > a short test hop. > BB > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Jeremy, I think I may have figured it out - http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/nih.htm Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138295#138295 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Robert The friction pressure of a prop bolted against prop hub is the primary way that torque is transfered to the prop. If you reduce the recommended torque on the bolts the prop bolts could break in shear and the prop might come off. I had a wood prop on a Weedhopper that would shrink and expand depending on the weather. One day it got loose and sheared to prop bolts clean off. Later I was told that wood props need to be retorqued with each change of season or sooner. Richard Girard is right about the 8mm bolts on the Powerfin. I use some long grade 5, 5/16 bolts that have a higher torque rating than the recommended 175 in lb or 20 nm but I torque to the prop makers recomendation. I asked Stuart about using the bolts higher rating once and got my ass chewed just for asking. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> Bob, Interesting, the 8mm bolts on my Powerfin are torqued to 175 in.lb. into the steel prop flange and into the aluminum body of the prop hub per the instructions that come with the prop. Rick On 10/5/07, robert bean wrote: While we are on the torque value topic, the Warp Drive spec for those little 1/4" hub bolts (4 per blade on the HP) is 120 in lbs. Three years ago, while assembling mine, one of those "genyoowine" aircraft nuts stripped out while attaining that value. -Made me feel a little creepy as you might understand. OK, maybe that was a defective nut but still that is a lot of stress for such a small diameter. - teensy threads too. I now use 110 in lbs and retorque after either a good ground runup or when you live at the airport.
Robert
 
The friction pressure of a prop bolted against prop hub is the primary way that torque is transfered to the prop. If you reduce the recommended torque on the bolts the prop bolts could break in shear and the prop might come off. I had a wood prop on a Weedhopper that would shrink and expand depending on the weather. One day it got loose and sheared to prop bolts clean off. Later I was told that wood props need to be retorqued with each change of season or sooner.
 
Richard Girard is right about the 8mm bolts on the Powerfin. I use some long grade 5, 5/16 bolts that have a higher torque rating than the recommended 175 in lb or 20 nm but I torque to the prop makers recomendation. I asked Stuart about using the bolts higher rating once and got my ass chewed just for asking.
 
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
 
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com> <BR>Bob, Interesting, the 8mm bolts on my Powerfin are torqued to 175 <A href="http://in.lb/">in.lb</A>. into the steel prop flange and into the aluminum body of the prop hub per the instructions that come with the prop.<BR><BR>Rick<SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"></SPAN><BR><BR>
On 10/5/07, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net >

While we are on the torque value topic,  the Warp Drive spec for
those little 1/4" hub bolts
(4 per blade on the HP) is 120 in lbs.   Three years ago, while
assembling mine, one of those
"genyoowine" aircraft nuts stripped out while attaining that value.
-Made me feel a little creepy as you might understand.  OK, maybe
that was a defective
nut but still that is a lot of stress for such a small diameter.  -
teensy threads too.
I now use 110 in lbs and retorque after either a good ground runup or
when you live at the airport.

      
      
      

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Knapp" <gary56(at)sover.net>
Subject: Firestar For Sale
Date: Oct 05, 2007
I have a 94(?) Firestar KXP, 447 Rotax @ 280 hrs. Full Enclosure, Removable Doors, Drum Brakes, For Sale. Clean, always hangered, No Structural Damage. Been Babied, Well Maintained. Comes with converted Boat Trailer for transport. $6500. or BRO. email direct to. gary56(at)sover.net Figured I'd put it on here first. Ebay or Barnstormers next week. Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Wooden prop bolt torque
Rick Nielsen brought up an interesting point about bolt torque on wooden props, that is shrinking of the wood with temperature and humidity. One of the fellows on the canard aviators forum lost a prop due to this factor and lost a large chunk of wing in the process. Marc has since been experimenting with belleville washers as a way to ameliorate the effects of temperature and humidity. You'd have to take into account that props typically used on Kolbs have about half the hub thickness of those used on a Lycoming O-360, but belleville washers (spring washers) are available from McMaster Carr (pg 1165) in a variety of rates and thicknesses, and can be stacked to get almost any combination of pressure required to maintain a consistent torque pressure on the prop hub. Ok, it's experimental aviation here's an experiment to perform. I'll take it up when I get my Firestar certificated next month, but if there's anyone out there who's looking for a project, feel free to start without me. Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
In a message dated 10/5/2007 12:10:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, neilsenrm(at)comcast.net writes: The friction pressure of a prop bolted against prop hub is the primary way that torque is transfered to the prop. If you reduce the recommended torque on the bolts the prop bolts could break in shear Rick, You are right about the friction, but I believe what fails the bolts is fatigue from the bolts slightly bending. Never had any trouble with my Sensenich 64x79 here in Fla where we have big changes in temp and humidity. I did however check the torque monthly. After the first year it seemed to stabilize. Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Pat's Extra
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Stay away from barns, and watch out for those baggy pockets!>> Thanks for the good wishes Dennis. I am relearning the art of taxying a tail dragger in a straight line. Got the tail up yesterday and, you wouldn`t believe it, but there is a bump in the middle of my strip where a hedge was grubbed out and I was accidentaly nudged into the air. Just for a moment you understand. Actual flying would be illegal and I wouldn`t want to do that now, would I? The baggy pockets which I was convinced caused the runaway into the barn, was aided and abetted by the fact that Jabiru policy is that if something fails the throttle goes to `Open`. I think the baggy pockets just jogged the throttle enough for that to happen. Makes me feel a bit better, but not much. That throttle friction nut is done up good and tight now! Cheers Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 2007 KOLB HOMECOMING SLIDESHOW
Date: Oct 05, 2007
It seems that I `do not have permission to perform this action` Is this an AOL thing? Cheers Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I Passed!
From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot1(at)tx.rr.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Way to go Roger! We do have one problem. Your statement "It was nice to be "Experimental 1782 Charlie" instead of "yellow ultralight." is incorrect. Your callsign should be "Kolb 1782 Charlie" all the time with one addition. When you call an ATC Tower on initial callup you add "Experimental" to the end of your callsign then omit "Experimental" on subsequent contacts. See Aeronautical Information Manual section 4-2-4. Aircraft Call Signs. http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/ Yes, these Kolb's do quite well when lightly loaded. I got to showboat a lot at TNK Homecoming. -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138342#138342 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I Passed!
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2007
John Williamson wrote: > Way to go Roger! > > > Your callsign should be "Kolb 1782 Charlie" all the time with one addition. When you call an ATC Tower on initial callup you add "Experimental" to the end of your callsign then omit "Experimental" on subsequent contacts. > > > > Yes, these Kolb's do quite well when lightly loaded. I got to showboat a lot at TNK Homecoming. Roger: I know what you are going through. I used experimental for years. Then John W straightened me out. I am Kolb 101AB. Occassionally, I stick experimental on the end when I go into a towered field. Congratulations! Now you can stop looking over your shoulder when you fly out of those "citified" airports. Flying out of Rock House Field, I would not worry too much about an FAA inspector. -------- John Hauck MKIII/912ULS hauck's holler, alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138351#138351 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf0124_resize_131.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf0103_resize_156.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf0101_resize_591.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I Passed!
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2007
This darn program sent my post before I got the photo of the welcoming committee posted. Anyhow, when I was on short final to Gantt Internationa Airport, I noticed the whole crew was out to meet me. They decided they would wait where I normally stop the airplane and disembark. There must have been 20 momma cows and babies under the tree. Some of the calves were probably a day or two old. Got their first introduction to aviation. -------- John Hauck MKIII/912ULS hauck's holler, alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138353#138353 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf0133_resize_120.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Arksey(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Subject: sorry about slide show for 2007 kolb homecomining..
thanks for letting me know the slide show did not work for you...i use aol and i sent the slide show to my gmail email address and it worked ok....must be a person needs aol in their computer to make it work...oh well i will give the juniors at aol a lecture and figure another way to share the photo's....I would give you the password but do not know what they want ....flying has been good...after taking with John H i at the homecoming I checked by wings on the firestar at the rear attach points and the left wing was loose, so spent the afternoon tightening that . sure made me feel a lot better making tight turns... James Swan KOLB FIRESTAR ll 503 N663S michigan GRASS STRIP E & W 2200' GPS 42deg 28.65N 084 deg 44.87 N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Rick G: Works a little different if your system uses drive lugs, like the Warp Drive. I very seldom break a prop bolt. One or two since I started flying 912 series engines some time ago. Question: Would failure in shear and bending be the same? Seems to me shearing off 6 prop bolts would be tough to do with a wooden prop. Bend them enough cycles and they will fail. john h mkIII The prop gets loose as the wood shrinks and the torque pulses of the engine then rock the prop back and forth against the loosened bolts. Eventually, the prop bolts fail in shear. Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: sorry about slide show for 2007 kolb homecomining..
Date: Oct 05, 2007
----- Original Message ----- From: Arksey(at)aol.com To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Kolb-List: sorry about slide show for 2007 kolb homecomining.. thanks for letting me know the slide show did not work for you...i use aol and i sent the slide show to my gmail email address and it worked ok....must be a person needs aol in their computer to make it work...oh well i will give the juniors at aol a lecture and figure another way to share the photo's....I would give you the password but do not know what they want ....flying has been good...after taking with John H i at the homecoming I checked by wings on the firestar at the rear attach points and the left wing was loose, so spent the afternoon tightening that . sure made me feel a lot better making tight turns... James Swan KOLB FIRESTAR ll 503 N663S michigan GRASS STRIP E & W 2200' GPS 42deg 28.65N 084 deg 44.87 N ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Jim Swan's AOL Slide Show
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Hi Gang: Sorry about firing a blank a minute ago. Every time I would hit reply to Jim's msg, my computer would lock up. Finally, it burped, and fired off a zero reply to Jim's email. Anyhow, Jim mentioned loose drag strut fitting bolts and universal joints. I include these in my preflight and post flight inspections. I have found, through the years, there are a lot of Kolbs out there flying with the trailing attach points pretty sloppy. They fly better snugged up. I push up and down on the inboard rear corner of the wing pretty hard. If it has slop you will see it move. I tighten up the drag strut bolt through two small slits in the inboard rib fabric. I have also changed out a bolt this way. A little tedious, but can be done. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Arksey(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Subject: ANOTHER TRY AT PICS OF KOLB HOMECOMING 07
James Swan KOLB FIRESTAR ll 503 N663S GRASS STRIP E & W 2200' GPS 42deg 28.65N 084 deg 44.87 N ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
At 10:17 PM 10/5/2007, N27SB(at)aol.com wrote: >Seems that I remember someone was looking for a filter like this early >this year. > That's better than most of the tractor gascolators I've seen... but I was looking for something with a drain, like I had on my '41 T-Craft. I now have one of the inline filters with a glass body from the auto parts store on my Ultrastar... not as convenient, but I can unscrew the ends if I really need to. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: "Bryan Dever" <indyaviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: : Kolb-List:Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever
The throttle lever on my firestar did the same thing in flight after only 80 hours. I was able to change throttle settings by turning the hub. I made a temporary field repair using JB weld and a 3/16" drill bit as a connecting rod. That was 40 hours ago and I see no real need to change it. Mine broke off without bending as yours did. If you look at the missing paint at your bend, it looks to be corroded like it had been bent for a while? Bryan Dever The throttle lever on my Firestar II with 460 hours broke just above > where it is welded to the tab. I ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
At 10:51 PM 10/5/2007, N27SB(at)aol.com wrote: >Dana, >the best thing I have seen is the Andair Microgascolator, but it is >Pricey. Available at Wicks AC >17e0741.jpg<http://www.andair.co.uk/system/index.html>http://www.andair.co.uk/system/index.html > Those do look nice, but they still lack the combination of features that seems to be no longer available... a clear bowl so you can see what's inside, AND a drain valve. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Arksey(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Subject: THE REST OF THE HOMECOMMING PICS
WELL THESE ARE THE LAST OF THE PICS I TOOK THAT I THOUGHT WERE OF INTEREST...HOPE YOU ENJOY.. James Swan KOLB FIRESTAR ll 503 N663S GRASS STRIP E & W 2200' GPS 42deg 28.65N 084 deg 44.87 N ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
John, Go to Canard Aviators at yahoo groups and read Marc Zeitlin's story. Lyc O-360's have drive lugs and 3/8" bolts to hold on the prop. Look at the pictures of what the prop did to the wing and winglet when it departed. It's a chicken and egg question when you find yourself with a prop one moment and without one the next. Rick On 10/5/07, John Hauck wrote: > > Rick G: > > Works a little different if your system uses drive lugs, like the Warp > Drive. > > I very seldom break a prop bolt. One or two since I started flying 912 > series engines some time ago. > > Question: Would failure in shear and bending be the same? Seems to me > shearing off 6 prop bolts would be tough to do with a wooden prop. Bend > them enough cycles and they will fail. > > john h > mkIII > > The prop gets loose as the wood shrinks and the torque pulses of the > engine then rock the prop back and forth against the loosened bolts. > Eventually, the prop bolts fail in shear. > > Rick > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Rick G: Thank goodness we have no encountered prop seperation problems with 912 series engines, that I am aware of. Does an 0-360 have any kind of torsional vibration dampening, other than the prop? john h mkIII Lyc O-360's have drive lugs and 3/8" bolts to hold on the prop. next. Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I Passed!
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2007
John W, Thanks for the link and the lesson, "Kolb 1782 Charlie" it is. Makes sense. When I used to fly 172's it was always "Cessna 1556 Foxtrot." Guess I should have checked the AIM instead of mimicking the locals. I also enjoyed your movies from the Kolb homecoming. John H, Nice welcoming committee. In a former life I used to live on a ranch with 600 pairs of those beautiful Charolais. I fly back there now and then. One must beware the land mines lest one find oneself with green stripes on the bottom of the wings. It will be nice not looking over my shoulder on the ramp or doing 360s to wait for the "real" airplanes in the pattern. Take Care, -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138443#138443 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
No, theres a flywheel to carry a ring gear for the starter and that adds very little since it's aluminum. Rotax has the benefit of 40 years of engineering science to make their little jewel work. I didn't really appreciate what their engineers had accomplished until I tool Eric's class. Lyc is stuck making adaptations to the technologies of the 1930's. Like the Rotax, it's a real testiment to the engineering technology of its day. Rick On 10/5/07, John Hauck wrote: > > Rick G: > > Thank goodness we have no encountered prop seperation problems with 912 > series engines, that I am aware of. > > Does an 0-360 have any kind of torsional vibration dampening, other than > the prop? > > john h > mkIII > > > Lyc O-360's have drive lugs and 3/8" bolts to hold on the prop. next. > > Rick > > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: Danger Danger
Danger Danger I will be flying in a Sky Ranger today with Wayne he was explaining how difficult it was to fly a sky ranger he must think I dont know anything about flying the sky rangers they are as easy to fly as rolling a ball down a hill Im just putting up with his shit long enough to get signed off should be legal in a couple weeks Ellery ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Our Allegro has a small glass bowl gascolator w/o a drain so we were looking for an equivalent with a drain but could not find one. We ended up buying one from Great Plains Aircraft for $36. Metal bowl but inexpensive and well built. See attached photo. It takes a standard 1/8" NPT threaded Curtis or Safe-Air drain valve. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138460#138460 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/gasc04_738.jpeg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Mike Yes Yes....... We heard all that before. But when it came to a side by side fly off there was no difference. Sometimes when we invest time and money we want it to be soooo bad...... I had a actual forced landing in a bean field a few years ago and Homers design came thru for me just fine. Yes I know it wasn't a fair test. Lets review flaps verses 20% less weight, you guys are right John was unfairly challenged. Richard should have carried more weight. Also Richard said he practiced slow flight on the way to Homecoming and he came for the day so he didn't have all that camping gear someone suggested. Someone said don't knock it till you try it. As sayings go seeing is believing. I'm just giving you VG guys a rough time. For me I still don't see enough advantage and before the test I was about ready to put them on. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge > > > slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: >> Fly slower??? How slow do you NEED to fly? It took me 3 years to >> even pull down the flap handle one notch. >> :) :) :) > > > The ability to fly slow in a Kolb is a HUGE safety factor. If my engine > ever quits, and I am going to be landing in one of those plowed fields, or > tall beans, or whatever is in there, having the mains touch down at 30 MPH > instead of 40 MPH could make all the difference in the world as to how > much damage I do to the plane, and weather I get hurt or not. > > Having the ability to fly 10 MPH slower around the pattern, and 10 MPH > slower on final again is a HUGE safete factor. Not getting into that > stall spin accident until the plane is 10 MPH slower could make the > difference between it ever happening or not. > > On my MK III, my indicated stall changed by a full 10 MPH, my touchdown > speed decreased by 10 MPH, my minimum comfortable approach speed went from > 60 to 50 MPH. The control in the slow speed range feels much better, no > mushy feeling at all. All this with no downside, I will never take them > off. Exactly where to install VG's are expained very well in the > directions. I put my VG's on with double sided 3M automobile trim tape > from advance auto so I could take them off if I did not like them. The > size, angle, and placement of VG's is critical. I would suggest buying > the ones we know will work for 100 bucks, rather than spending days > fabricating ones that may or may not work well. > > WWW.LANDSHORTER.COM > > Its the best 100 bucks you will ever spend on your Kolb. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137848#137848 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
Dana, I was told years ago that the glass bowl was retired on AC because it was prone to break. Use a sample cup and check your gascolator before each flight. BTW, the Hoop and Cup style gascolators should be safety wired. It is a little cumbersome but there is a standard method. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Swan's AOL Slide Show
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> Any thoughts on why the drag strut bolt would come loose? Do you think a second bolt would help? That way the single bolt can't act as a pivot point. Thanks, > > -------- > Scott Morning Scott: A lot of things could affect the drag strut bolt. -Primarily, from normal flying and ground handling, fair wear and tear. On the ground, taxiing probably does more harm than flying. The wing is working up and down, and back and forth on the 1/4" bolt. -May not have been torqued down enough initially. ??? I don't know about adding another bolt. You'll have to ask the engineers that question. One bolt works great. If it loosens a little, it can be tightened through two small slits in the inboard fabric, one fore and one aft of the drag strut fitting. When done, use some 2" plastic electrical tape to seal up the slits. Those slits also provide for an access to the inside of the wing for inspection. When I rebuilt my left wing, I added two inspection plates back there to gain access to the bolt and fitting. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
> > >Someone said don't knock it till you try it. As sayings go seeing is >believing. > >I'm just giving you VG guys a rough time. > > For me I still don't see enough advantage and before the test I was about >ready to put them on. > Rick, I will extend the same proposal to you that I gave to John H. "If you are up to it, I will supply you with a set of VG's that can be temporarily mounted with electricians tape. That way you can fly and record your stall speed, land, tape on the VG's and the fly again to get your new slower stall speed. When you find that your stall speed is reduced you can pass them on to the next doubter." Will you duck and run and hide behind the "Homer" and "stock" word? Or are you up to the challenge?. Here is a chance to try them at no cost to you, and as you say "seeing is believing." The best part is that you get to do it in your own aircraft so there will be no question about aircraft variations except the without and with VG's. If you do not want to do it, I will understand. I'm just trying to give you non VG guys a rough time. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Hi Lar, How are you. You have been very quiet lately. I was only saying to Wendy yesterday that you hadn`t been very active on the list.. We were showing some friends some of the pics which you took at Monument Valley and around Santa Fe. They may be coming to the Santa Fe area next year. How are things at work. They running you ragged? cheers Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Danger Danger
Is this a nationwide alert, Ellery? Should the colors be changed? I'm sure Cheney is already in a bunker somewhere, but should the frat boy go on vacation? This Sky Ranger stuff sounds really serious. Rick On 10/6/07, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote: > > Danger Danger I will be flying in a Sky Ranger today with Wayne he was > explaining how difficult it was to fly a sky ranger he must think I dont > know anything about flying the sky rangers they are as easy to fly as > rolling a ball down a hill > Im just putting up with his shit long enough to get signed off should be > legal in a couple weeks > > Ellery > > > ------------------------------ > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
a58r(at)verizon.net wrote: > In the Fall of 1903, my late father was taking a class in physics at > Indiana University. The professor was at the blackboard explaining/ > proving that a heavier-than-air machine cannot fly. When I was taking > flying lessons in '40, Dad used to warn me that what I was doing was > impossible! > > I remember reading an article in an old 1930's issue of FLYING magazine, where some physicist was explaining why due to the massive amounts of power required, that flying faster than the speed of sound would be impossible. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138489#138489 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > > > I'm just giving you VG guys a rough time. > > For me I still don't see enough advantage and before the test I was about > ready to put them on. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > --- Rick, Something you should consider, this was ONE test where a pilot who admittedly was distracted and did not try very hard, was trying to out fly the best Kolb pilot in the country. There have been reports and many scientific tests run by the British CAA, many aircraft manufactures in the US, and a bunch of Kolb pilots that have tested VG's, ALL of them very positive. Yet you are willing to ignore MASSIVE amounts of evidence collected over the years based on ONE test that went badly according to one of the pilots flying it ??? Does that make any sense to anyone ??? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138490#138490 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Here is the Gascolator that is going on my Kolb. It is meant for experimental aircraft, and is only 67 dollars. Comes with a drain and a modern unbreakable design. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsgascolator.php Glass is prone to cracking and breaking. Seems if you want glass, you are getting so focused on one issue, that you are ignoring the more important breakage issues. You cant see gas in the fuel drains on most Cessna and other GA aircraft... If you want to see the fuel coming out, drain in a clear container. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138492#138492 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/gascolator_957.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/gascolator_177.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Yet you are willing to ignore MASSIVE amounts of evidence collected over the years based on ONE test that went badly according to one of the pilots flying it ??? > > Does that make any sense to anyone ??? > > Mike Mike B/Jack H/Jeremy C: I respect your decision to put VG's on your airplanes. Please be gentlemen and respect my decision not to put them on mine. I know it is difficult for you all to understand that some of us can and do safely fly and enjoy our Kolbs without them. You all are beginning to sound more and more like TV evangelist. Next you'll be passing the "love offering" bucket. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Hi John, I'm not trying to talk you into put them on miss P'fer. Your flying ability is so good, that you really don't need vortex generators. But as you so clearly demonstrated at the homecoming, the rest of need every advantage we can get :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138496#138496 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
I have a Mark III Xtra with a Rotax 912-S and here are my data with vortex generators installed. This is very non scientific, but just what I see flying from day to day. Weight Empty about 650 lbs Cruise 70 MPH at 4500 RPM, very low power, it will go 80 if I fly run 5000 but it feels great at 70 and 4500 and uses much less fuel, just around 3.5 GPH. Stall 28 indicated, no flaps... Not much different with flaps. Its actually faster, but there is error in airspeed due to angle of attack. Best rate of climb is 50-60 MPH. I aim for 60 for safety margin - A sudden power failure in this very high angle of climb needs a very large, positive and quick foward stick input to avoid a stall . Best angle seems about the same, I don't see much advantage climbing slower than that. I normally fly approach at 60, just for safety since I have a long runway. Best glide seems around 50. That being said, the plane feels really good at 40 indicated on approach. I would NOT make a habit out of that though, that is just for very short field. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138499#138499 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> I'm not trying to talk you into put them on miss P'fer. Your flying > ability is so good, that you really don't need vortex generators. But as > you so clearly demonstrated at the homecoming, the rest of need every > advantage we can get :) > > Mike Mike B: Doesn't take much flying ability to pull the flaps down, the throttle back, and keep the wings level. My mkIII did the performing. I did the riding. I take no credit for how slowly my mkIII flew. There are no tricks in keeping a Kolb above the stall, except maybe a gentle control touch. I don't know of any other way to reduce stall. Guess I could have taken Roger Lee's advice and hung on my pusher prop. ;-) You said this morning the comparison between my mkIII and Richard P's was not fair. Sounds like you were making the rules. You did not brief me on them prior to my flight. What did transpire was pretty simple and the briefing and agreement took place in about 10 seconds. Richard had already cranked his 582. We agreed that I would fly off his right wing, start the run on the runway at 50 mph and slow it down from there. Whoever got to the east end of the field last was the winner. From my vantage point, which was the best seat in the house, that is exactly what we did. We both arrived at the end of the strip at the same time. If Richard could have flown much slower and didn't is not my concern. The fly off was based on flying performance demonstrated, not thought about. Seemed fair to me. We were both sharing the same air at the same time. Could care less the differences in weight, configuration, etc. We accomplished what we intended to do. The comparison did not change my mind about putting VG's on my mkIII. I still have no desire to stick'em on there. Please respect my wishes and others they are not overpowered by the insistance that they must fly their Kolbs with VGs. I do not recall insisting you all take them off yours. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Lanny Fetterman <donaho(at)uplink.net>
Subject: ACS Gascolator
Hi all, I put an ACS gascolator on my FSII last winter. I also bought the mounting bracket. It has worked great so far, and it is nice to be able to check for water before each flight. N598LF (85 degrees in PA today, too hot to archery hunt. :-( ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> I have a Mark III Xtra with a Rotax 912-S and here are my data with vortex generators installed. This is very non scientific, but just what I see flying from day to day. How about some numbers without VG's? Based on your numbers with VG's, I'd happily do a side by side comparison with you. I'd much rather wing than tie. You said flaps do not affect stall speed on your airplane with VG's. Maybe that is why Richard Pike did not use his when we were doing our flight. ??? I am still convinced the only way to do the comparison is do it in the air. Being less than precise and scientific, individual flight tests before and after leave a lot of room to question the true validity of the resulting numbers. We used to have a saying in MX racing when I was a very young puppy, "When the green flag drops, the BS stops." john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 06, 2007
By > my count, only four more shots on this string (not counting this one, > which > is administrative in nature) will eclipse the infamous SEAFOAM string > back > in the fall of '98... > > Historic Beauford Bill: Makes no difference, admin or not, the tally goes up with the subject line. Are you still testing the helmet VG system? john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
Date: Oct 06, 2007
The only problem that I see with it is that of where do you mount it so that you can use a "dealy bob" to check the fuel in it? I made one of the pvc types and mounted it to a plate on the bottom of my cage and the drain sticks out the bottom. Piece of cake to check. Interestingly I have never found water in any amounts in my fuel since installing. Larry, Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: fuel filter160163215628 > > Here is the Gascolator that is going on my Kolb. It is meant for > experimental aircraft, and is only 67 dollars. Comes with a drain and a > modern unbreakable design. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsgascolator.php > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> Interestingly I have never found water in any amounts in my fuel since installing. > Larry, Oregon Larry K Because there is no water in high desert, SE Oregon? Well.......I take that back. Sometimes when John W and I land there, we bring a thunderstorm or two, with us. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
At 01:54 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: > By >my count, only four more shots on this string (not counting this one, which >is administrative in nature) will eclipse the infamous SEAFOAM string back >in the fall of '98... an extended bit of self-imposed agony which literally >brought tears to the eyes, new scar tissue to the fingers and lowered PH to >the intestinal tracts of Listers for many months afterward.... > >Historic Beauford By Gosh - this ought to put us over the top - one for the good guys! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't expect them to do a lot - so I put them on with the Double stick tape so I could remove them later. The instructions say to use double stick tape until you find the optimum location or "sweet spot" and then glue them later. I think I will just leave them stuck on with the tape I got at the auto paint shop - it seems pretty strong. However mineral spirts seems to loosen & dissolve the glue if I ever want o move them or take them off. I was very impressed - and am going to leave them on my wings. On take off I can point the nose up and up and more up ("more up" is a tech term). and hold the air speed just over 30 mph and it seems to just hang and it really does seem to knock about 6 mph off my stall speed. Got a $30 Hall speed indicator out side the plane - it's more accurate than the one inside. I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for the amount of time and money invested. And like Jeremy says it's not just that you can fly slower, it's "how well" you can fly slower that's what most impressed to me. 30 mph no mush. I fly my plane slow - a lot. Ole slow Possum ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
In a message dated 10/6/2007 10:38:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net writes: Will you duck and run and hide behind the "Homer" and "stock" word? Or are you up to the challenge?. Here is a chance to try them at no cost to you, and as you say "seeing is believing." The best part is that you get to do it in your own aircraft so there will be no question about aircraft variations except the without and with VG's. If you do not want to do it, I will understand. I'm just trying to give you non VG guys a rough time. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN One thing about what you are suggesting is that it would be a legitimate and fair apples to apples test! I like the idea but they are kinda of ugly! I do know if I have an engine out and only a short spot to put er down, the slower I touch down the better my chances of stopping quick. My interest is still in the truth! Ed Diebel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Denny Rowe" <rowedenny(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
Date: Oct 06, 2007
----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> > > Here is the Gascolator that is going on my Kolb. It is meant for > experimental aircraft, and is only 67 dollars. Comes with a drain and a > modern unbreakable design. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsgascolator.php > Mike Mike, If you plan on ever using pump gas in your Mk-3, do not use that ACS gasculator! Pump gas will ruin its gasket in a couple minutes and it will leak like hell. Ask me how I know? Thegasket only holds up to 100ll. Denny Rowe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> If you plan on ever using pump gas in your Mk-3, do not use that ACS > gasculator! Pump gas will ruin its gasket in a couple minutes and it will > leak like hell. > Ask me how I know? Thegasket only holds up to 100ll. > > Denny Rowe Denny R: Probably why they sell a replacement gasket for auto fuel REPLACEMENT GASKETS AUTO FUEL 10536-1 06-00441 $5.45 john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
At 08:32 AM 10/6/2007, N27SB(at)aol.com wrote: >Dana, >I was told years ago that the glass bowl was retired on AC because it was >prone to break. Use a sample cup and check your gascolator before each >flight. BTW, the Hoop and Cup style gascolators should be safety wired. It >is a little cumbersome but there is a standard method. Yes, apparently they had problems when the gascolator was mounted to, and shook with, the engine. Firewall or frame mounted gascolators were OK. I've got a transparent filter now that can be disassembled if necessary, so I'm satisfied. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Carb ice & Cuyuna?, NOT ice!
At 09:23 PM 10/4/2007, Dana Hague wrote: > >Had some difficulty this evening which sounds like carb ice... Seemed like ice then, but the same thing happened today when warmer and less humid. Turned out the problem was carb adjustment... it's been unseasonably hot and humid lately, and the last time the plane was flown (last year by the previous owner, and last week by me) it was a lot cooler. Moving the jet needle clip up one notch solved all the problems, and I had a delightful couple of flights today. Life is good... -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: [ George Alexander ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: George Alexander Lists: Kolb-List Subject: Kolb Firestar II - 3 View http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/gtalexander@att.net.10.06.2007/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: [ James A Swan ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: James A Swan Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List Subject: Holb Homecoming 2007 Pictures http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/arksey@aol.com.10.06.2007/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: Kolb List- MK 3 engine options
I might have to beef up the wings a bit and build a fire proof Tail section but do you supose this will work on a MK3 Xtra solar t62-2a1 with a NSI prop and a NSI variable pitch prop. It is running in the picture. 100HP Ellery In Maine looking at alternative engines ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
John Hauck wrote: > Rick G: > > Thank goodness we have no encountered prop seperation problems with 912 > series engines, that I am aware of. > > Does an 0-360 have any kind of torsional vibration dampening, other than > the prop? > > john h > mkIII > No. It is, after all, a certified engine with all the shortcomings that implies. I hope y'all don't mind input from a non-Kolb flier. I'm building an RV-7. Because of how rough Lyc's typically are, I debated for a couple of years about using an alternative engine before giving in to the time saving factor of doing a standard Lyc installation. Any 4 cyl 4-stoke engine has strong torque reversals between each power pulse. The only hint of damping in a Lyc is on *some* of the -360's, that have a 'G' in the suffix letters. Even those don't have anything between the crank & the prop; they have little pivoting weights attached to the counterweights on the crank. The idea that friction between the back of a wood prop & the metal prop flange keeps the prop from moving is common among pilots of larger planes, too, but it just doesn't pass a sanity check in all but the very lowest power situations. In every 'normal' a/c prop installation I'm aware of, the drive lugs are what transfer the rotational energy from the prop flange to the prop. (That's why they are called 'drive lugs' :-) ) All the bolts do is keep the prop from 'rocking' in and out of the plane of the flange. If the prop bolts get loose, motion of the a/c, torque pulses & reversals will cause the prop to 'rock' on the flange, wallowing out the close-tolerance holes where the drive lugs fit. Now the prop is both rocking, bending the bolts (as John mentioned earlier) and getting it's lug-holes hammered out bigger and bigger by each pulse. Things feed on themselves & the bolts soon fail. Want evidence that it ain't friction that keeps blades stable? Ask IVO about their props for 4 cyl Lycs (if they have started selling them again). There are no drive lugs in an IVO hub, and the bolt holes in the blades are way over-sized for the bolt diameter. I've flown 2 different IVO's on a 160 hp O-320. Both had blade movement. The installation requirements were to place 'witness tape' (1st copper, then stainless adhesive backed tape) across the gap between blades and check the tape *before and after every flight*. The tapes broke on every flight. Note that the 1st prop I tried had the original hub that IVO sold for Lycs, with smooth surfaces on the hub plates facing the blade roots. The 2nd had deeply knurled surfaces, to bite into the blade roots. The 2nd just chewed up the top layer of glass/resin on the blade root. Both props were installed to IVO's instructions, using a torque wrench. Eventually, IVO quit selling props to Lyc owners because they couldn't solve the problem. (Drive lugs would have stabilized the blades.) Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> were installed to IVO's instructions, using a torque wrench. Eventually, > IVO quit selling props to Lyc owners because they couldn't solve the > problem. (Drive lugs would have stabilized the blades.) > > Charlie Charlie: Probably stabalize the blades long enough for the drive lugs to eat the IVO hub. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 Torque Spec Error
Charlie, I almost mentioned the Ivo Lycoming mismatch, but I have only the experience of others to go by. Ivo has added drive lug counterbores to the hubs of their bigger props, at least the one that came with my trike had them. I sent it back after reading the installation instructions. The instructions were, and I only wish I were making this up: Torque to spec, run engine for one minute. Torque to spec, run engine two minutes. Torque to spec, run engine four minutes. Torque to spec, and so on, and so on. I added it all up and it came to over eight hours before you could do anything like a normal flight. Then read the tape and retorque every two hours, replacing the tape after each new torque job. Sheesh. As I told the owner of the trike co., "How am I supposed to explain to a customer that installation is going to cost as much as the prop, not to mention the cost of sleeping pills should I ever turn one over to a customer." I just do not like the idea of prop blades that are held into the hub by bolts alone, although I have to admit, as a life long machinist, I was fascinated by the 60 degree flat knurling on each side of the hub plates. A real testimony to what can be done with CNC machines. But when it comes to props, I like the robust blades of the Warp and the light weight of the Powerfin. Now if I could just have both qualities in the same prop. Oh, well, a happy life is knowing where to set your standards and where to compromise. RIck On 10/6/07, Charlie England wrote: > > > John Hauck wrote: > > Rick G: > > > > Thank goodness we have no encountered prop seperation problems with 912 > > series engines, that I am aware of. > > > > Does an 0-360 have any kind of torsional vibration dampening, other than > > the prop? > > > > john h > > mkIII > > > > > No. It is, after all, a certified engine with all the shortcomings that > implies. > > I hope y'all don't mind input from a non-Kolb flier. > > I'm building an RV-7. Because of how rough Lyc's typically are, I > debated for a couple of years about using an alternative engine before > giving in to the time saving factor of doing a standard Lyc > installation. Any 4 cyl 4-stoke engine has strong torque reversals > between each power pulse. The only hint of damping in a Lyc is on *some* > of the -360's, that have a 'G' in the suffix letters. Even those don't > have anything between the crank & the prop; they have little pivoting > weights attached to the counterweights on the crank. > > The idea that friction between the back of a wood prop & the metal prop > flange keeps the prop from moving is common among pilots of larger > planes, too, but it just doesn't pass a sanity check in all but the very > lowest power situations. In every 'normal' a/c prop installation I'm > aware of, the drive lugs are what transfer the rotational energy from > the prop flange to the prop. (That's why they are called 'drive lugs' :-) > ) > > All the bolts do is keep the prop from 'rocking' in and out of the plane > of the flange. If the prop bolts get loose, motion of the a/c, torque > pulses & reversals will cause the prop to 'rock' on the flange, > wallowing out the close-tolerance holes where the drive lugs fit. Now > the prop is both rocking, bending the bolts (as John mentioned earlier) > and getting it's lug-holes hammered out bigger and bigger by each pulse. > Things feed on themselves & the bolts soon fail. > > Want evidence that it ain't friction that keeps blades stable? Ask IVO > about their props for 4 cyl Lycs (if they have started selling them > again). There are no drive lugs in an IVO hub, and the bolt holes in the > blades are way over-sized for the bolt diameter. I've flown 2 different > IVO's on a 160 hp O-320. Both had blade movement. The installation > requirements were to place 'witness tape' (1st copper, then stainless > adhesive backed tape) across the gap between blades and check the tape > *before and after every flight*. The tapes broke on every flight. Note > that the 1st prop I tried had the original hub that IVO sold for Lycs, > with smooth surfaces on the hub plates facing the blade roots. The 2nd > had deeply knurled surfaces, to bite into the blade roots. The 2nd just > chewed up the top layer of glass/resin on the blade root. Both props > were installed to IVO's instructions, using a torque wrench. Eventually, > IVO quit selling props to Lyc owners because they couldn't solve the > problem. (Drive lugs would have stabilized the blades.) > > Charlie > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: 582 stater plate any one ??
today I burned out my charging coil , 76 hrs ago I lost the tack coil so I ran a tiny tack. the first thing I noticed was a drop in my charging volts just a little low , then it dropped way off after about 3 hrs flying time when I used my strobe and lights, after inspecting the charging wires i found a burnt wire and only 9 oms on my charging circuit. $600 and 4 hrs labor and i will be back in the air. malcolm kit fox michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb List- MK 3 engine options
Ellery, Then count on increasing the wing span to account for the extra fuel load. NSI used to show this thing at Arlington all through the 90's. I wasn't aware they ever got anyone to bite on this bit of vaporware. But that's why we put the big letters saying EXPERIMENTAL on our aircraft. I'm sure Pat Ladd is laughing heartily about the idea of this ever getting past the inspectors in his neck of the woods. There was a guy at the Wellington Air Festival last weekend with two model airplane turbo jets on his sailplane. He claimed a 500 fpm climb with a total of something like 80 lbs. of thrust. Sure looked cool and a better option than a retractable prop. The price is dropping pretty nicely on those little engines, now if they could just get the TBO into triple digits. You suppose the specter of these little things on the horizon is why the LSA definition specifies a reciprocating engine. Rick On 10/6/07, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote: > > I might have to beef up the wings a bit and build a fire proof Tail > section but do you supose this will work on a MK3 Xtra > > solar t62-2a1 with a NSI prop and a NSI variable pitch prop. It is running > in the picture. 100HP > > Ellery In Maine looking at alternative engines > > > ------------------------------ > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Kolb List- MK 3 engine options
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2007
There would be no advantage to that, you would only be able to fly for 30 minutes or less due to the huge fuel consumption of a turbine engine. A Rotax 912-S would work better, no mods needed, and you can fly for hours... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138548#138548 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: trim tab attachment
OK, after the 5th flight in my US I've decided I need to add an elevator trim tab. It takes constant back pressure to hold it level at any power setting, not much force but let go and it dives at an alarming rate. I thought of using a bungee but I like the idea of a tab better as it's fail safe if anything fails in the elevator linkage. Or I may set the trim tab to a survivable glide speed and also add a bungee trim for fine adjustment. Anyway, what is the best way to mount it? I assume riveting it on, to the lower surface of the elevator, but I don't want to weaken anything. Do I rivet it to the trailing edge tube, or the ribs, or both? -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 582 stater plate any one ??
Malcolm, while you're at it get a copy of the heavy maintenance manual and go through the CDI's, too. It would be a real bummer to buy a new stator and find out you had an ignition defect takes out the new one, too. Rick On 10/6/07, Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote: > > today I burned out my charging coil , 76 hrs ago I lost the tack coil > so I ran a tiny tack. the first thing I noticed was a drop in my charging > volts just a little low , then it dropped way off after about 3 hrs flying > time when I used my strobe and lights, after inspecting the charging wires > i found a burnt wire and only 9 oms on my charging circuit. $600 and 4 > hrs labor and i will be back in the air. malcolm kit fox michigan > > > ------------------------------ > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: ultrastar rudder authority
Now that I've got a few extended flights on my US I'm feeling like the rudder just doesn't have enough authority. I can get more deflection by pushing WAY down on the rudder pedal(s) but it's quite awkward to get even enough rudder for a normal coordinated turn, even though the seat is in a comfortable position relative to the pedals. Of course I'm used to my T-Craft which had great gobs of rudder authority, or the Quicksilver whose rudder could easily overcome the ailerons. Has anybody played with increasing the sensitivity by raising the cable attach points on the pedals? This would give more rudder deflection for a given amount of pedal push, and seems it'd make the plane handle much nicer. I'm also considering lightening up the rudder pedal return springs. Any downsides to either change? -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: trim tab attachment
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> Anyway, what is the best way to mount it? I assume riveting it on, to the > lower surface of the elevator, but I don't want to weaken anything. Do I > rivet it to the trailing edge tube, or the ribs, or both? > > -Dana Dana: If it was my problem, first I would insure those big ole barn door ailerons are rigged correctly in flight, not necessarily sitting still on the ground. If they are drooped a tad, the aircraft will want to pitch down. The US low thrust line in pusher configuration should encourage the US to climb under power. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: aileron gap seal tape
My Ultrastar has the fabric gap seals, doped on. Unfortunately, however, they weren't installed properly, so the ailerons can't fold flat against the lower wing surface when folding the wings. Looking at my friend's MKIII today, though, I see his are clear plastic tape. I'd like to cut off the fabric gap seals and install the plastic ones (properly, though!). He tells me the seals are made of "bookbinder's tape", but he doesn't remember where he got it. Can anybody point me in the right direction, or offer another suggestion? -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
FireFlyer's After lightly plopping my FireFly and being surprised as to how easy it was to bend the legs, I started thinking about how to support the existing legs. I took some measurements, made some assumptions, and ran some numbers. I found that at gross weight the gear legs can support a 1.8G to 3.4G landing. Where the 1.8G represents landing on a very slick surface, and the 3.4G represents landing on dry pavement. The FireFly landing gear is very tire to surface friction dependent in that there is nothing but the legs to keep the wheels from spreading. I looked at attaching a 1/8 inch diameter cable to the axle to leg attachment bolt and running it to either the leg attachment bolt in the cage or to the opposite leg just below the socket. By doing this, the 1.8G improved to 3.9G for the leg attachment bolt, and to 5.2G when connecting to the top of the opposite leg just below the socket. This may be a good low cost and light weight improvement. More about how these numbers were calculated can be seen at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly134.html When, I get the parts fabricated and installed, I will put up another page. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> Has anybody played with increasing the sensitivity by raising the cable > attach points on the pedals? This would give more rudder deflection for a > given amount of pedal push, and seems it'd make the plane handle much > nicer. > > I'm also considering lightening up the rudder pedal return springs. > > Any downsides to either change? > > -Dana Dana: Normal rudder control of the US should be more than enough to get the job done. Don't know if the builder built and rigged the system correctly, according to the plans and construction manual. Should be able to get full rudder deflection in each direction. If not, maybe the mechanical advantage needs a little adjustment. Lightening up on rudder pedal return springs will encourage rudder flutter. Strong return springs will pretty much neutralize the force required to operate. I'd check to insure the rudder horn is secure and rigid when operated with a simulated flight load on it. Possiblity it is loose or flexing, preventing full rudder deflection. Your rudder may be flexing. Do you have any broken ribs or braces inside the rudder? In the air, you will never come close to fully deflecting the rudder because of its size. The US is an aileron airplane. Rudder is used primarily for ground handling. You can fly the US with your feet on the deck making coordinated turns with ailerons only. Homer did a good job designing the aileron control geometry on the US. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: trim tab attachment
At 10:45 PM 10/6/2007, John Hauck wrote: > >If it was my problem, first I would insure those big ole barn door >ailerons are rigged correctly in flight, not necessarily sitting still on >the ground. > >If they are drooped a tad, the aircraft will want to pitch down. Thanks John, that was one of the things I checked today. On the ground, they're dead even with the wing (wing lower surface to aileron lower surface). In flight, if anything they ride a bit higher. I considered reflexing them a bit and I still might try that, but I don't want to raise the stall speed. I also considered that the plane might be nose heavy, but I have plenty of elevator authority through stall and/or flare, and as near as I can tell the elevators are even with the stabilizer when I'm holding the back pressure required for level flight. -Dana -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> He tells me the seals are made of "bookbinder's tape", but he doesn't > remember where he got it. Can anybody point me in the right direction, or > offer another suggestion? > > -Dana http://www.dickblick.com/zz230/21/ 3M Scotch #845 Book Tape john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
At 10:54 PM 10/6/2007, John Hauck wrote: > >Lightening up on rudder pedal return springs will encourage rudder >flutter. Strong return springs will pretty much neutralize the force >required to operate. Hmmm, makes sense, I hadn't thought of the flutter aspect... should have, considering all the posts on flutter in the archives. >I'd check to insure the rudder horn is secure and rigid when operated with >a simulated flight load on it. Possiblity it is loose or flexing, >preventing full rudder deflection. Your rudder may be flexing. Do you >have any broken ribs or braces inside the rudder? It seems to flex a bit on the ground, when I apply rudder but it's being opposed by the tailwheel. I don't think anything is broken, though, it's something to look at. >In the air, you will never come close to fully deflecting the rudder >because of its size. I'm sure you're right... but I'm having a hard time, on the ground, getting enough deflection for reasonably tight turns (unless I use the brakes, of course) without really pushing my toe *way* out, and in the air it just seems it could be a little more sensitive. I may just try shortening the rudder cables as much as the turnbuckles will allow, so I don't have to push as far, if that doesn't interfere with my ability to use the heel brakes. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
At 11:05 PM 10/6/2007, John Hauck wrote: > >http://www.dickblick.com/zz230/21/ > >3M Scotch #845 Book Tape Cool, thanks! -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: Re: 582 stater plate any one ?? rick
good idea what do you mean? by heavy maintenance manual ? malcolm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: trim tab attachment
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> I also considered that the plane might be nose heavy, but I have plenty of > elevator authority through stall and/or flare, and as near as I can tell > the elevators are even with the stabilizer when I'm holding the back > pressure required for level flight. > > -Dana Wing incidence may not be correct. Too much or too little, I do not know how that would affect pitch attitude. On my US, I rigged it according to the construction manual. It still needed rudder, aileron, and elevator trim tabs to zero out any adverse pressure on the stick. I made all the tabs out of .016" alum. They were easy to bend for adjustment. I also believe they were relieved of some of their angle of attack as airspeed increased. My FS was rigged identically. Trimmed out perfect with the same three trim tabs. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> It seems to flex a bit on the ground, when I apply rudder but it's being > opposed by the tailwheel. I don't think anything is broken, though, it's > something to look at. > > -Dana You probably have more tailwheel problem than rudder problem. A standard tea cart US tailwheel and assembly was not know to turn well. A full swiveling break away tailwheel would do a much better job. Trying to force the US and FS to turn with rudder and power, on the ground, is very hard on the tailpost and lower vertical stabilizer leading edge which is an alum tube. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> This may be a good low cost and light weight improvement. > Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H: I have a few hours flying the FF, so I consider myself a Fireflyer also. We horse around with the airplanes at the factory and Sun and Fun, and Oshkosh. In other words, they get flown hard and to extreme most of the time. Knock on wood, I have not stalled one in and bent a leg or two. That's the only way they bend, unless you run over an obstacle or through a deep rut or in a hole. Next time you see Dick Rayhill flying the FSII at OSH or S&F, the gear legs will be bent and sagging. Reason, he approaches and lands the FS right on the edge of the stall. Sometimes he screws up and stalls prematurely. If ya drop it in, the gear legs will bend. Seems to me putting a cable brace on your gear leg will take most of the flex out of it, then load up a point where stress is concentrated and fail again. Cables hanging down there also invite noseovers if you should land in the beans, high grass, weeds, or brush. For sure cotton and corn. They'll put you on your nose with or without gear leg cable bracing. As long as i have been flying Kolbs, I still bend gear legs. Not because they are poorly designed. They were never designed to be stalled and dropped in a couple feet or more above the ground. I screwed up and bent a gear leg this summer because I stalled the mkIII too high with a wing low. That will get them quicker than stalling and falling in a wings level attitude where both gear legs are sharing the load. Looks like you dropped yours in on one leg too. Let us know how your experiment turns out. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
Date: Oct 06, 2007
> You probably have more tailwheel problem than rudder problem. > Forgot to add to my previous. You may have tail wheel springs that are too weak to turn the tailwheel. Are you sure your tailwheel is turning when you deflect the rudder? john h ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Denny Rowe" <rowedenny(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
Date: Oct 07, 2007
> > > Denny R: > > Probably why they sell a replacement gasket for auto fuel > > > REPLACEMENT GASKETS > AUTO FUEL 10536-1 06-00441 $5.45 > > john h > mkIII > John, Thom, That is good news, ACS did not have that back a couple years ago, I guess my old gasculator is not worthless after all. I even went to the trouble of machining a bowl from billet that used a viton o ring but was unhappy with the weight, I never tried Thoms idea of using a differant gasket material. Thanks, Denny ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: trim tab attachment
At 11:11 PM 10/6/2007, John Hauck wrote: >Wing incidence may not be correct. Too much or too little, I do not know >how that would affect pitch attitude. Insufficient wing incidence (or more correctly, insufficient declage, which is the relative angle between wing and stabilizer) would cause a nose down tendency. I don't think that's the case, though. >On my US, I rigged it according to the construction manual. It still >needed rudder, aileron, and elevator trim tabs to zero out any adverse >pressure on the stick. I made all the tabs out of .016" alum. They were >easy to bend... How did you attach them? Rivets I assume, but into what? The trailing edge or ribs or both? -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 582 stater plate any one ?? rick
Malcolm, There are four manuals for the Rotax two strokes, Installation, Operation, Line Maintenance (although it's called the maintenance manual), and Heavy Maintenance. The Heavy Maintenance Manual is for Models 462, 532, and 582. It is part no. 899 081 The section you want to look at is 7.9starting on page 59. At the Rotax aircraft engine site it's listed as the Repair manual, the part number is the same but it's shown as n.a. under file and pdf file size. http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/a_searchdoc.aspx I got mine at the repair center classes at Lockwood. I'll see if I can get my scanner up and running (even finding it may be a miracle after three moves, so I make no promises) and send the relevant pages. Any body out there have this manual and a working scanner? Rick On 10/6/07, Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote: > > good idea what do you mean? by heavy maintenance manual ? malcolm > > > ------------------------------ > See what's new at ww.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170" target="_blank"> > * > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
At 11:31 PM 10/6/2007, John Hauck wrote: >You probably have more tailwheel problem than rudder problem. A standard >tea cart US tailwheel and assembly was not know to turn well. A full >swiveling break away tailwheel would do a much better job. Trying to >force the US and FS to turn with rudder and power, on the ground, is very >hard on the tailpost and lower vertical stabilizer leading edge which is >an alum tube. Yes, that (the side load on the lower fin) bothers me. A swivel tailwheel would be nice, but I've never seen one small and light enough... have you? >You may have tail wheel springs that are too weak to turn the tailwheel. >Are you sure your tailwheel is turning when you deflect the rudder? Yes, but it's back to that same issue, I have to push the rudder pedals way down, too far to be comfortable, to get the desired effect. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: trim tab attachment
Date: Oct 07, 2007
> How did you attach them? Rivets I assume, but into what? The trailing > edge or ribs or both? > > -Dana Back then, I attached to trailing edge with 1/8" fabric rivets, about 1" spacing. If you put enough hours on the aircraft you will probably have to replace a trim tab or a rivet or two. On the mkIII I attach the only trim tab to the rudder using two ribs and no rivets in the trailing edge. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
Date: Oct 07, 2007
A swivel tailwheel > would be nice, but I've never seen one small and light enough... have you? Call Travis at TNK. He has a nice small full swiveling tail wheel > Yes, but it's back to that same issue, I have to push the rudder pedals > way down, too far to be comfortable, to get the desired effect. > > -Dana If you have differential braking, use the brakes to help you maneuver on the ground. IIRC, the rudder cables on the US connect off a tab on the rudder pedal. I may be dreaming and wrong again. Anyhow, would insure all the measurements for attachments for cables is correct. Another thing to insure is not giving under load is the tail wheel horn on the bottom of the rudder, and the hinges that attach the rudder. The hinges on the bottom of the rudder are under heavy load when the rudder is deflected, especially on the ground. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Swan's AOL Slide Show
Date: Oct 07, 2007
> Thanks for the info. By 'ask the enginners' i assume you mean Homer. I'll ask him next time i talk to him. Should be in about 2 months when Marcus gets back from Antartica. > > -------- > Scott Scott: I am not having any problem with the drag strut bolt loosening up on my mkIII. Been a long, long time since I have had one work loose. I would not change it. Lot of Kolbs out there flying with one bolt in the drag strut. Could have been caused by drilling slightly oversize holes. I am not a good driller. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ultrastar rudder authority
Date: Oct 07, 2007
>> Yes, but it's back to that same issue, I have to push the rudder pedals >> way down, too far to be comfortable, to get the desired effect. >> >> -Dana Dana: If the tailwheel strut is still stock in length, you can shorten it until about 4 or 5 inches of the strut are exposed. This may give you more tailwheel authority on the ground. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> ............ I watched the 1/2 VW fly on the FS. It seemed to do a good job. Sorry, but I did not take time to take a close look at it and the installation. ............ John, Steve, & Kolber's, Is there any info on who this fellow is? I would like to talk to him. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Oct 07, 2007
> Is there any info on who this fellow is? I would like to talk to him. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack: Contact Travis, at TNK. He has contact info on this gentleman. I believe he lives in the London, KY, area. Wish I had taken time to look at the FS w/1/2 VW more carefully. Homer Kolb took a good look at it. At one time they ran it up on the ground. Homer was helping him hold it down. Later Homer told me there was a lot of vibration in the engine, even when run up to WOT and cruise rpm. I believe it is a direct drive with no torsional vibration dampening. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: "Vic Peters" <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: fuel filter160163215628
"Mike, If you plan on ever using pump gas in your Mk-3, do not use that ACS gasculator! Pump gas will ruin its gasket in a couple minutes and it will leak like hell. Ask me how I know? Thegasket only holds up to 100ll Denny Rowe " Ditto on the gascolator from Great Plains, and wait till you try to mount it. The bail bends, the thumb screw is next to impossible to center, then you have to safety wire it. I threw mine out! I got the blue aluminun jobbie from Spruce. 2 ports out plus one 1/8 for a primer. Direct mount. Vic Maine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
From: herbgh(at)juno.com
Jack He is not "net worthy".. however I have his number... The engine was on loan from another fellows Firefly..East Tenn area..Knoxville.. The engine is back on the Firefly .. It has dual ign and is well stroked.. Forget but I think over 84mm.. 92 or 94 jugs.. 40 horses or so? The owner is currently working on a 90 mm stroker.. I did not know that 90 mm was possible..? Gonna go over and see that one.. Easy day trip from south cent. Ky. Been saying that for a year however! :-) If one allows Scott Casler balance the rotating parts(125 bucks) ; then the engine runs very smooth..idles well at 600 rpms or so.. may or may not have a rough spot around 1400 to 1600 rpms.. requires a fly weight on the prop hub. I fly Global,half vw's on my N3 pup and am absolutely open to installing a vw on my Firefly or TriFly that is currently percolating in my head! :-) VW's , especially half vw's with cut cases take a hit because of oil leaks.. I sealed my Globals with goo that sells for 15 bucks a tube.. Anerobic sealant..forget the brand.red tube .maybe Great Planes sells it? No oil leaks.. It is important to have a good crankcase vent system.. That area can be the source for an oily belly if ill designed... Nice thing is that a half vw can be freshened with all new bearings,jugs, pistons, rings and wrist pins,valves,keepers for less than $300 bucks..:-) Price of one 582 piston? Wrist pin extra? :-) I will send you the number by private mail...Herb writes: > > > From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> > ............ > I watched the 1/2 VW fly on the FS. It seemed to do a good job. > Sorry, but I did not take time to take a close look at it and the > installation. > ............ > > John, Steve, & Kolber's, > > Is there any info on who this fellow is? I would like to talk to > him. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2007
jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: > Herb, et al, The perfect 1/2 VW is out there. It runs like a charm, sips gas, and is a bolt on for a Firestar or Fire Fly. It's called the HKS700E. > > Rick Ok, going to probably p*** some guys off again but..... May as well just go with the 503 at that point. It can be installed with the B box and the pull start, which will save a bunch of weight and will cost less by almost half. Even with the C box and clutch that I have on mine, it's lighter than the HKS by a little bit, mostly because electric start isn't needed. I don't know what all the objections are the 2 strokes. I've got almost 10 years of flying in front of 503's and its reliability record is as good as my 912s so far ;). Not sure why guys seem to have so much trouble with them, never had so much as a cough out of any of my 503's and they've taken me all over the place.. Yeah you have to do teardowns/inspections/reseals on a fairly regular basis, but life sucks and then you die - we're mechanics anyway once we buy our airplanes anyway. The toolset from rotax is about 1000 if you get all the extravagant stuff such as the pin puller, circlip installation tool and all the pullers. You can get a basic set for less than that. But then you can do all your own work except perhaps for major stuff like reboring cylinders and the like. The 503 is as perfect a match for the FSII as you can get, run great, lasts a long time, burns 3 GPH and has a bunch of gearbox/ratio options. It ain't broke so I don't see why it needs all this fixin'.... ;) LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138625#138625 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Hauck" <jimh474(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Herb; The prop hub plate did more to balance the engine than anything else. Small flywheel added to the rear of the crankshaft and balanced with the crankshaft may be the answer. But adding weight 90 degrees to the TDC helps counteract the weight of both pistons moving in and out at the same time. A friend of mine made a 2 cylinder out of a Type II VW or Porsche 914 engine and it didn't have the same vibration characteristics. I used a 35MM carb off of a Honda motor cycle and adapted a needle valve in the float bowl that aligned with the main jet. This arrangement developed the best power. I had a camshaft ground to put the power band in the 2000 to 3000 RPM range. Static RPM was 2900. Jim Hauck 10/7/2007 11:44:46 AM, herbgh(at)juno.com wrote: > Jim > Yep! Balancing the little hummers is an art.. something like 100 % of > the rotating mass and 35% of the reciprocating mass.. > > likely never would run as smooth as most of the two cycles.. That said... > Very adequate if properly isolated... The Global in my Pup is running is > 20 year old isolators and is not well balanced..still in all..not > tremendously worse than the 447 on my Firefly.. neat thing is the 600 rpm > idle.. I will have it balanced . Currently the instrument panel has to be > isolated to try to preserve the instruments.. > > Neat thing is to get to cruise alt and dial in the Egts..lean it out a bit. > .. Just be sure to richen for landing! > > I remember and have chatted with the fellow who headed the half vw project > at Team Aircraft (mini max) . He tells it as a disaster..I recall seeing > one hand propped at a flyin in middle tenn..I thought the engine would > separate from the airframe..? They gave up... This back in the late > 80's or early 90's.. > > However... than said... Scott Casler has refined the balance process over > the years.(others too I guess ) (he worked with Morrey Hummel) > > Extra weight has to be added to the rear of the crank and the final ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel pumps
From: "Wade Lawicki" <wlawicki(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Group, Want to run a electric boost or backup pump along with my duel mikuni pulse pump. I hear to run them parallel, slitting them before and after the pumps but, how to do it right with a duel output pump? Ive ran them for others in series,through the electric on to the pulse then to carbs but have heard stories of the pulse pump not drawing through the electric and the electric over flowing the carb bowls. electric will be used for take off and landing only. what does the majority use? Fly Safe , Wade Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138642#138642 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
From: "Wade Lawicki" <wlawicki(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Office depot has it around 3.95 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138643#138643 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Bob Noyer <a58r(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel pumps
Many posts on this topic in Archives...look at bottom for Archives. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel pumps
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Wade, The dual output is just an internal tee. You can can tie into either outlet with your electric pump and it will feed both carbs. Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wade Lawicki" <wlawicki(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:24 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel pumps > > Group, > Want to run a electric boost or backup pump along with my duel > mikuni pulse pump. I hear to run them parallel, slitting them before and > after the pumps but, how to do it right with a duel output pump? Ive ran > them for others in series,through the electric on to the pulse then to > carbs but have heard stories of the pulse pump not drawing through the > electric and the electric over flowing the carb bowls. electric will be > used for take off and landing only. what does the majority use? > Fly Safe , > > Wade > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138642#138642 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Subject: Re: 582 stater plate any one ?? rick
I have taken that course 3 times. I have that book and used it to get my specs on lighting coil oam limits mine are low only .9 and seems to be over charging the system. I smoked a wire at the connection re hooked it up and am charging at almost 14.75 volts I will double check everything with the help of live support from Brett from LEAF. I also try to keep good records by writing everything down so I give the info out properly. it is only airplane money. what is moor valuable is the Waite and balance I need to keep with the wife. 3 hrs at the airport regardless of what i am doing costs me 6 hrs maintained at home malcolm ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Wade Lawicki wrote: > Office depot has it around 3.95 I've been using the clear plastic shipping tape too, Office Depot or the local post office has it. I fold the ailerons under like they need to be when the wings are folded and then apply it in sections as I make it. When I unfold the ailerons, it folds into the gap and stays put like that. About an hours work and I have to replace them about every 6 months. It seems to come off without pulling anything off with the fabric, but I'm very careful anyway... The ailerons work a lot better with the seals on... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138678#138678 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
At 10:01 PM 10/7/2007, lucien wrote: >I've been using the clear plastic shipping tape too, Office Depot or the >local post office has it. > >I fold the ailerons under like they need to be when the wings are folded >and then apply it in sections as I make it. When I unfold the ailerons, it >folds into the gap and stays put like that... I understand the bookbinder's tape is thicker and thus should be more durable? The way I was told to do it was to lay two strips sticky side together, overlapping about halfway. Sticks to the top of the wing and underside of the aileron (or vice versa). When the aileron moves, it rolls off one side and onto the other, so it's always fairly tight. -Dana -- -- "I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
Dana sounds like you got it, I was typing while you posted Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: aileron gap seal tape
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2007
d-m-hague(at)comcast.net wrote: > At 10:01 PM 10/7/2007, lucien wrote: > > I understand the bookbinder's tape is thicker and thus should be more durable? > > The way I was told to do it was to lay two strips sticky side together, > overlapping about halfway. Sticks to the top of the wing and underside of > the aileron (or vice versa). When the aileron moves, it rolls off one side > and onto the other, so it's always fairly tight. > > The shipping tape works fine too, I've never been able to find the book binding tape but the shipping tape is everywhere. The way I make them is to lay two strips side-by-side gummy-side up. Then lay a strip gummy-side down down the center. This gives a strip 2 times the width of the tape with sticky strips on each side. I apply the strip to the top of the trailing edge of wing/leading edge of aileron, and the center part folds into the gap when I move the aileron into position. The strips are 2x the thickness of the tape, so thinner tape still gives a pretty durable strip. Easier to remove too since the sticky parts are both on top of the wing/aileron... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138697#138697 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 582 stater plate any one ?? rick
Oh good. I picked up some kind of bug for my birthday and have just felt like crud all day long. Was afraid if I went down stairs to look for the scanner, I'd have just had to move down there.Did get a good start on the EAA chapters November newsletter, though. Gotta get well, good flying weather coming Tuesday according to the guessers. Rick On 10/7/07, Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote: > > I have taken that course 3 times. I have that book and used it to get my > specs on lighting coil oam limits mine are low only .9 anod seems to be > over charging the system. I smoked a wire at the connection re hooked it > up and am charging at almost 14.75 volts I will double check everything > with the help of live support from Brett from LEAF. I also try to keep > good records by writing everything down so I give the info out properly. it > is only airplane money. what is moor valuable is the Waite and balance I > need to keep with the wife. 3 hrs at the airport regardless of what i am > doing costs me 6 hrs maintained at home malcolm > > > ------------------------------ > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Casey" <1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us>
Subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 08, 2007
As long as i have been flying Kolbs, I still bend gear legs. Not because they are poorly designed. They were never designed to be stalled and dropped in a couple feet or more above the ground. I screwed up and bent a gear leg this summer because I stalled the mkIII too high with a wing low. That will get them quicker than stalling and falling in a wings level attitude where both gear legs are sharing the load. Looks like you dropped yours in on one leg too. Let us know how your experiment turns out. john h mkIII With much fear of the poke the angered dog with the stick one more time syndrome setting in... Could I take this opportunity to point out that those VG things soften the stall a good bit and greatly lessen the chances of bending gear legs??!!??!! If you work'em hard enough they also slice and dice and can make Julian fries ;-) Jeremy "I'm so ashamed" Casey P.S. I only sent this message to try to secure the VG thread as the all-time winner of longest thread and most non-"controversial" debate ever. P.S.S. Pennzoil sucks!!! (Will that get a good 2-stroke oil fight going?) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Hi Listers, Jeremy's taken the words right out of my mouth.. I fly GA planes as a contractor (hired gun for owners/corporations), and some of the piston-powered single and twins have VG's. Having flown a given aircraft with and without VG's, and not having a monetary investment one way or the other, I can state that the VG's totally transform the aircraft. Most of the Cessna and Piper twins are notoriously underpowered, and having VG's drops Vmca (single-engine minimum-control speed) significantly, making the airplane much safer in a dangerous situation. On the singles, also improves low-speed (takeoff as well as landing) feel and performance. No degradation at all in cruise. None. Before I flew VG's, I too thought they were snake-oil (think Seafoam). The proof is in the puddin'. Those who don't use them, you don't know what you're missing. When my MkII gets rebuilt, it'll have them. Mainly to save on gear legs. Ed in JXN MkII/503 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Casey To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Snip) What you fellows saw at the great "test" was 2 different planes, flown in different configurations, at different weights, at different power settings.in other words, from an engineering standpoint you saw nothing!!! The flaps alone can account for a huge increase in max Cl. If the ground rules had been set beforehand, full flaps/no flaps, idle power only, load the planes to similar weights, etc. it would have been in the neighborhood of a valid test, but the true VALID test is flying the same plane WITHOUT them and then WITH them.no other differences except the effect from the VG's. (Snip) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Jack, I very much enjoyed your detailed description of calculations and intended remedy for gear leg bending. Please keep us posted on how that works out. For what its worth, on my recent stall from a few feet into a pothole at Bob Bean's field which broke the left wheel axle fitting and resulted in me ending the landing upside down, the longer than standard 4130 tubing gear legs were not bent in the process. This, even when the leg without the axle fitting dug into the ground as I was still moving forward at about 30 mph. I've become a believer in heat treated 4130 tubing gear legs. I have no idea if they are heavier or lighter than the stock gear legs, which I know is always important to you for staying under 254#. [/i] -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138809#138809 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/197bg_rt_frnt_qrtr_109.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 08, 2007
the longer than standard 4130 tubing gear legs were not bent in the process. > Thom in Buffalo Hi Thom: To what RC rating were your gear legs heat treated? I have been using 48 RC since we started experimenting with and using 4130 gear legs in 1988, on my FS and mkIII. IIRC the weight of the mkIII aluminum legs were about the same or a tad more than the 4130 legs. I use 1 1/8" .120" wall 4130 legs on the mkIII and also on my FS. In addition, my tailwheel strut is .120" wall 3/4" RC 48. I think the OD is 3/4. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Date: Oct 08, 2007
> Yes, Yes and the people that wrote the Bible also insisted that the World was flat and that the Sun and planets orbited around the Earth.> Also...ne ver listen to people that have NOT gone up against the boundary in person a nd can not speak from their own experience as they know not what they speak of. Hey, you can save us a step! Take your own advise and don't talk about thin gs you haven't gone up against in person! Since you didn't speak to the writers of the Bible in person and you don't know Greek or Hebrew and you apparently don't know God then you should shut your trap. If you dont want to take your advise take mine, keep religion out of it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Thom, Of course, the other side of this coin, as Travis reminded me, is that aluminum gear legs save cages. No use speculating on how your arrival would have gone if you'd have had aluminum legs, but I've done some real whack's, straightened the legs that night, and flown the next day. Rick On 10/8/07, John Hauck wrote: > > > the longer than standard 4130 tubing gear legs were not bent in the > process. > > > Thom in Buffalo > > Hi Thom: > > To what RC rating were your gear legs heat treated? > > I have been using 48 RC since we started experimenting with and using 4130 > gear legs in 1988, on my FS and mkIII. > > IIRC the weight of the mkIII aluminum legs were about the same or a tad > more > than the 4130 legs. > > I use 1 1/8" .120" wall 4130 legs on the mkIII and also on my FS. > > In addition, my tailwheel strut is .120" wall 3/4" RC 48. I think the OD > is > 3/4. > > john h > mkIII > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
> >I've become a believer in heat treated 4130 tubing gear legs. I have no idea if they are heavier or lighter than the stock gear legs, which I know is always important to you for staying under 254#. > Thom, I really don't want to get away from the aluminum legs. They are a great safety feature in that they do bend so easily. It saves the cage and the pilot. I want the cable to act as a fuse that breaks when the load becomes too great. This will absorb a lot of the impact energy from a plop, and then, if necessary, the leg can bend to absorb even more. The cable will have little to no effect for dropping a wheel into a hole. I see this as desirable. I would want the leg to bend to the rear to save me and the cage. If, I can remember to use five degrees of flaperon, I should be going about 26 mph under no wind conditions. The good thing about bending gear legs is that it makes you re-evaluate your landing technique. Lately, I have been making very, very good landings. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Subject: Re: floats 007
Steve what kind Of floats do you have on your Firefly? what motor ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2007
John, I have no idea to what RC the legs were heat treated to because it was done by someone else before I bought it. I only know that it was done or the tubes would have buckled in a heartbeat without the heat treating. They look sort of funny because even with the FS empty, they are slightly bowed and have visually obvious negative camber but no toe-in/out that I can tell. When loaded with me and fuel I'm sure it looks even stranger but they track straight and true and don't bounce much at all with imperfect touchdown. I expect that with much use on paved runways, where I'm located, the inside sides of the tires will wear first, then I'll turn them around and wear out the other side. Great gear legs is all I can say. If my pothole landing did not result in damaged sockets it is unlikely I'll ever have that problem, without breaking a lot more too. Almost done with the wingtip structural repair. Boom tube is next. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138889#138889 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 08, 2007
They look sort of funny because even with the FS empty, they are slightly bowed and have visually obvious negative camber > -------- > Thom in Buffalo Thom: The 4130 legs can be pressed straight or a little past straight to give you some positive camber. Not only does it look much better, but when loaded up from landing forces, the positive camber will get pulled toward neutral camber and load everthing more evenly. Negative camber makes the airplane look like it just finished making a hard landing. One can also persuade the axles to bend the wheels back to positive camber by blocking up the gear leg/axle socket, pulling off the wheel, slipping a piece of water pipe over the axle snugly, and stepping on the pipe. That is how I kept my FS axles happy. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 08, 2007
> The 4130 legs can be pressed straight or a little past straight to give you > some positive camber. Gang: Forgot to add something to the last. Not a good idea to try flying with 4130 gear legs that have not been heat treated. Prior to heat treating they will be extremely stiff, and bend permanently if stressed to much. After heat treating the legs become very springy, because they are springs. At 48 RC they make a good spring, but when pushed over the limit, they will bend before they break. I do not know where that RC number is that will make them brittle. I have had great luck with 48 RC. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27SB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Subject: Re: floats 007
Aluminum Czech floats and a 447 Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Subject: Re: floats 007
I have flown a sky raider with Czech floats and a 447. they are a great combination for a light plane. I have flown a firefly and owned a firestar kxp but never flown a ultrastar . malcolm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Date: Oct 09, 2007
The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as an orb.>> Hi, I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after giving a lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said " You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an elephant which is standing on a turtle" "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that " said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down" Cheers Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Ellery (aka Curious George), Along with the relatively minor wing tip damage, the nose cone was destroyed and the front of the cage was bent as was the left upper longeron, one wing strut bowed, the sacrifical PowerFin prop was destroyed (blades only) and the boom tube broke just aft of the H-truss. Bob Bean repaired the cage before I removed the remains from his place where the incident occurred. The engine is fine and the empenage was untouched. John, Thanks for the pointers about pre-stressing the 4130 tubes to remove the static negative camber. Once I get the FS flying again next spring, I'll see about fixing that. It DOES look strange. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138939#138939 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Date: Oct 09, 2007
And this rather pointless missive reminds me of Proverbs 26:5. Which is why I wrote my previous post. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:55 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented > > The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God > is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as > an > orb.>> > > Hi, > I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange > reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after giving a > lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said " > You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an > elephant which is standing on a turtle" > "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case > what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that " > said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down" > > Cheers > > Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...) > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
> Along with the relatively minor wing tip damage, > -------- > Thom in Buffalo Thom: Sounds, to me, like a major accident. Your FS1 a 5 rib wing? john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2007
John, Yes it is a FS1 w/ 5 rib wing. When you start listing the damage it sounds worse than it was. One wing received no damage at all nor did the tail. Yes it is a good bit of work to fix but nothing like building from scratch. The only bodily damage to me was very bloody shins from the instrument panel trying to occupy the space reserved for my legs. All healed now. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138962#138962 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Shimei" <mshimei(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Date: Oct 09, 2007
When I bought my twinstar several years ago, I was not impressed by the SLOW SPEED handling.. Any turn more than 20 deg resulted in a mush and almost complete loss of aileron control. This required full deflection to correct the turn. I am used to flying a Phantom, so I thought this was the way the Kolb design flew. Then just for my own personal amusement, I cut some VGs from plastic shim stock and taped them on, took about 80 or so. I didn't know what to expect on the first flight, so I was careful on roll out...WOW!!! plane jumped off in 1/4 less distance and the angle of climb was about 10-15 degrees more with no buffet or aileron mush. I could fly it around 45 and make 60 degree banks with no mush or lack of control. Landings were different. I didn't plop it down like before and could lower my approach speed. Yes, I checked the rigging, control throws, CG, and lateral balance. Added a 5lb weight to the right wing to balance me out sitting on the left side. Mark....Who is going to see Big Lar in New Mexico on Wednesday or Friday. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
> When you start listing the damage it sounds worse than it was. > -------- > Thom in Buffalo Thom: I have to disagree with you. The damage you describe indicates the FS took some tremendous hits. The tailboom does not snap unless there was another action that caused it. Did the tailboom fail laterally or vertically? If it failed laterally toward the tip of the wing that took the hit, I have no idea how much stress was placed on the wing prior to the tailboom failing. The ribs of the FS were constructed of .028" wall 5/16" 6061. Five of the little rib noses carry the flight loads. If they decide to come out of column, the leading edge will possibly fail up and rearward to the main spar. The reason I am concerned is because this is what happened to my own FS in flight. On two occassions, that I can remember, I got the right wing tip. Was able to repair it both times without removing all the fabric. To have more than perceived damage in the wing never concerned me until after I survived a failure of both wing leading edges. The right wing failed (which had been previously damaged and repaired), followed almost simultaneously by the left wing. I might add, I never had a 5" tailboom fail on me, but I did snap a 6" tailboom when I crashed on the tip of the left wing, which took all the initial impact. It failed left and toward the left wing tip. Might be a good idea to consider some suggestions I made recently to insure there is more than adquate lateral bracing of the leading edges of both wings. I never considered a wing failure on my FS until it was too late. The thought of flying the way I did, back then, on those little wings, still scares me. It has been more than 17 years ago. Give me a call and we can discuss this in more detail if you wish. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Jack One of the energy absorption features of the spreading struts is the scrubbing of the tires on the ground for spring strut planes like the Cesnas. This is the principal dampening mechanism for the bouncing of the plane down the runway during landing. If you are seriously looking at the design of wheel struts, take a look at "Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft" Vol I by Ladislao Pazmany, ISBN 0-9616777-0-8. Chapter 9 will walk you through the FAA FAR23 requirements. While you don't need to meet these requirements you should understand their implications. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack B. Hart<mailto:jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement > FireFlyer's After lightly plopping my FireFly and being surprised as to how easy it was to bend the legs, I started thinking about how to support the existing legs. I took some measurements, made some assumptions, and ran some numbers. I found that at gross weight the gear legs can support a 1.8G to 3.4G landing. Where the 1.8G represents landing on a very slick surface, and the 3.4G represents landing on dry pavement. The FireFly landing gear is very tire to surface friction dependent in that there is nothing but the legs to keep the wheels from spreading. I looked at attaching a 1/8 inch diameter cable to the axle to leg attachment bolt and running it to either the leg attachment bolt in the cage or to the opposite leg just below the socket. By doing this, the 1.8G improved to 3.9G for the leg attachment bolt, and to 5.2G when connecting to the top of the opposite leg just below the socket. This may be a good low cost and light weight improvement. More about how these numbers were calculated can be seen at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly134.html ift.com/jack/firefly/firefly134.html> When, I get the parts fabricated and installed, I will put up another page. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2007
John H, I truly appreciate your comments. I know you are looking out for me and sharing your experience graciously. Thanks. Attached are the photos of the damaged areas, including the right wing tip, the nose, and the boom tube. Bob Bean witnessed the arrival so he may be in a position to add to this conversation. I understand why the boom broke the way it did but could not communicate it effectively to Bob Bean even when he saw the whole thing so I'm not sure I can communicate it to you and the rest of the group. Picture this, if you can: You have a long stick with heavy weights on each end (boom tube with empenage on one end and cage etc. on other end). Somewhere sort of near the middle of the stick you have two smaller sticks(gear legs) attached to it that extend downwards as the stick is falling (more or less horizontally). Remember I stalled 2-3 feet above the ground. The two sticks attached to the big stick hits the ground first and the momentum of the heavy weights on each end want to keep going when the short sticks stop dropping downward. The result is a tremendous bending moment in the middle of the big stick. One of the photos shows where the big stick gave up the effort to resist the bending moment.... at the aft end of the H-truss. The wing tip damage was confined to the outer most full rib, the stabilizing tubes going from the end of the main spar and the wing tip bow, the two most outbard false ribs, the wing tip bow and about two feet of the leading edge tube. All of the full ribs have the aluminum angle braces at the upper and lower camber going from the main spar to the leading edge tube. The new full rib I bought from Travis did not come with the angles but I'm adding them to the replaced full rib. I thought they would have come with the rib but they did not. I've already done prop flange run-out check and closely examined the gearbox for cracks and it is clean. No damage to the engine nor the tail nor the left wing except for a slight bow in the left wing strut, which will be replaced. Any more thoughts on this you might have will be welcome. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138982#138982 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00384_935.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00386_168.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00389_203.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00390_198.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: APilot(at)webtv.net
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
I have tried the cables between the wheel axles on a Mark III Classic. They work great. I am sure that some cruising speed is lost. I intend to put a fairing over them. I now use one 7/64" and two 1/16" cables so that they will break at different times when overstressed. On one landing recently, I did not account for the wind gradient cause by a 25 mph headwind and dropped it in hard. Both 7/64" tension wires ripped, but the gear leg did not bend. That proved a point to me. Most agree that wheel landings are the way to go. I definitely agree. These hard landings are probably having a negative effect on the boom tube. I was wondering how to inspect it. Vic in Sacramento ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
John , Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny wings" o n your firestar, I take it I don't remember but you had a5 rib Firestar did n't you ?how do the wings on a Firefly compare to a 5 rib fire star ? I kno w they are a lot longer but being so what do you think ? Just asking before I order , Your friend , Chris=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro m: John Hauck =0ATo: kolb-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, October 9, 2007 11:05:45 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement=0A=0A=0A--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" =0A=0A=0A=0A> When you start listing the damage it sounds worse than it was.=0A> --------=0A> Thom in Buffalo =0A=0AThom:=0A=0AI have to disagree with you.=0A=0AThe damage you describe indicates the FS took some tremendous hits. The =0Atailboom does not snap unless there was another action that caused it. Did =0Athe tailboom fail l aterally or vertically?=0A=0AIf it failed laterally toward the tip of the w ing that took the hit, I have =0Ano idea how much stress was placed on the wing prior to the tailboom =0Afailing.=0A=0AThe ribs of the FS were constru cted of .028" wall 5/16" 6061. Five of the =0Alittle rib noses carry the f light loads. If they decide to come out of =0Acolumn, the leading edge wil l possibly fail up and rearward to the main =0Aspar.=0A=0AThe reason I am c oncerned is because this is what happened to my own FS in =0Aflight.=0A=0AO n two occassions, that I can remember, I got the right wing tip. Was able =0Ato repair it both times without removing all the fabric. To have more t han =0Aperceived damage in the wing never concerned me until after I surviv ed a =0Afailure of both wing leading edges. The right wing failed (which h ad been =0Apreviously damaged and repaired), followed almost simultaneously by the left =0Awing.=0A=0AI might add, I never had a 5" tailboom fail on m e, but I did snap a 6" =0Atailboom when I crashed on the tip of the left wi ng, which took all the =0Ainitial impact. It failed left and toward the le ft wing tip.=0A=0AMight be a good idea to consider some suggestions I made recently to insure =0Athere is more than adquate lateral bracing of the lea ding edges of both =0Awings.=0A=0AI never considered a wing failure on my F S until it was too late. The =0Athought of flying the way I did, back then , on those little wings, still =0Ascares me. It has been more than 17 year s ago.=0A=0AGive me a call and we can discuss this in more detail if you wi ==========0A=0A=0A _________________________________ ___________________________________________________=0ATonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.=0Ahttp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
> Picture this, if you can: > You have a long stick with heavy weights on each end (boom tube with > empenage on one end and cage etc. on other end). Somewhere sort of near > the middle of the stick you have two smaller sticks(gear legs) attached to > it that extend downwards as the stick is falling (more or less > horizontally). Remember I stalled 2-3 feet above the ground. The two > sticks attached to the big stick hits the ground first and the momentum of > the heavy weights on each end want to keep going when the short sticks > stop dropping downward. The result is a tremendous bending moment in the > middle of the big stick. One of the photos shows where the big stick gave > up the effort to resist the bending moment.... at the aft end of the > H-truss. > > The wing tip damage was confined to the outer most full rib, the > stabilizing tubes going from the end of the main spar and the wing tip > bow, the two most outbard false ribs, the wing tip bow and about two feet > of the leading edge tube. All of the full ribs have the aluminum angle > braces at the upper and lower camber going from the main spar to the > leading edge tube. The new full rib I bought from Travis did not come with > the angles but I'm adding them to the replaced full rib. I thought they > would have come with the rib but they did not. > > -------- > Thom in Buffalo Thom: Looks like you have it all figured out. Let me be blunt, if I may. Based on what little experience I have crashing Kolbs, your crash rates right up there with a hard, very serious crash. You are lucky you walked away with only bruised shins. Your idea of how the airplane is set up is somewhat askew from mine. The tailboom butts up against the gear leg sockets into a steel ring that is welded to them. The legs are inside these sockets. They are at the forward end, not in the middle. The center of the H brace is about (WAG) 1/4 to 1/3 of the boom from the forward end. The tailsection is not that heavy, acts to dampen some of the inertia during a crash as it moves through the air laterally. >From the looks of the right wing tip, that is what stopped the forward motion, in conjunction with the nose of the fuselage. This is based on damage I see in your photos. If the gear legs and/or their sockets did not fail rearward in the crash, it was because the airplane was on its nose and right wing tip. The gear legs probably did not dig in. When the legs made contact with the ground, the tail came up and the nose and right wing tip contacted and stuck in the ground. I am familiar with the terrain at Bob's airstrip. I think the soil and sod would be perfect to stop a good crash. ;-) That wing tip is 12+ feet from the fuselage, a very long lever. The photo indicates the nose and the wing tip stopped suddenly. Even though you were only a couple feet in the air, as you say, I think you had already stalled the aircraft higher and did not realize it. This is a very common experience for Kolb pilots, even though they may be very experienced aviators. The other major component was your forward speed, coupled with your vertical speed, resulting in a very hard crash. My thoughts and experience only, for what it is worth. Personally, I would not fly this airplane until I had pulled the fabric and gone through both wings, not only to insure integrity of standard components, but to also beef up lateral bracing of the leading edge. Those rib bays are very big. At the center of the rib bay the leading edge is drilled top and bottom for a false rib that adds no significant strength to the wing. If anything, it tends to set up this point for failure. The drilled leading edge is also .028", which is weakened by the drilling. The center of the rib bay between the 2d and 3d rib from the outboard end is the weakest point of the wing. That is exactly where the failure of both my right and left wing was initiated. I won't try to tell you what to do, but wanted to share my experience and thoughts with you. I have personally experienced the demise of all three of my airplanes, more than once, while sitting in the pilot's seat. Not bragging. Trying to prevent someone else from duplicating my mistakes. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Hi Chris: All the newer Kolb models have much stronger wings than the old 5 rib FS. You don't have to worry about pulling a wing off a FF. It has 22' wing span, very short wing panels, and lots of ribs. Very similar to the Sling Shot. john h John , Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny wings" on your firestar, Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WillUribe(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Hi John, I took a look at the Thom's damaged FS and it doesn't look that bad. Thom has done a great job in putting it back together and it helps that he is an FAA certified airplane mechanic. I thought it was going be a challenge to match the holes on the H section when he drills the new tailboom. Thom said he will trace the holes on to a paper and use it on the tailboom as a stencil, sounds like a good idea. Yesterday I got to fly with him over Niagara Falls. In a message dated 10/9/2007 11:07:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes: Thom: I have to disagree with you. The damage you describe indicates the FS took some tremendous hits ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Good one, Pat. I thought this VG topic was becoming a religion, glad there's some humor in it, too. And lest any of Ye smiteth me, I do know how to use the delete key and do quite often. Pat generally puts a nice Brit spin, like the Monty Python reference, on things. Turtles, all the way down. Great. Rick On 10/9/07, pat ladd wrote: > > > The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God > is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as > an > orb.>> > > Hi, > I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange > reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after giving a > lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said " > You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an > elephant which is standing on a turtle" > "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case > what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that " > said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down" > > Cheers > > Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...) > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
I'm not going to go look it up, but I'm betting that it's: even a fool is thought wise, if he remains silent. One I break all too frequently. Rick On 10/9/07, Richard Pike wrote: > > > And this rather pointless missive reminds me of Proverbs 26:5. > Which is why I wrote my previous post. > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:55 AM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not > Invented > > > > > > The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that > God > > is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears > as > > an > > orb.>> > > > > Hi, > > I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange > > reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after > giving a > > lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said > " > > You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an > > elephant which is standing on a turtle" > > "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case > > what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that > " > > said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down" > > > > Cheers > > > > Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
John , I knew you were the right man to ask thank you Do you know where on can find a picture of the plan or a description of the wing from TNK itself ? Thanks again for the reassuring description , the slingshot is quite a r ugged model . Chris=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: John Hau ck =0ATo: kolb-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, Oc tober 9, 2007 4:48:01 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement=0A=0A=0AHi Chris:=0A =0AAll the newer Kolb models have much stronger wings than the old 5 rib FS. You don't have to worry a bout pulling a wing off a FF. It has 22' wing span, very short wing panels , and lots of ribs. Very similar to the Sling Shot.=0A =0Ajohn h=0A =0AJoh n , Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny wings" on y ======0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________________________ ___________________________________________=0ABuilding a website is a piece tp://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Chris: Call Travis, or maybe one of the guys on the Kolb List will send you a scan of the wing plans. john h Thanks again for the reassuring description , the slingshot is quite a rugged model . Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Hi Will: I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace. However, I would not consider it, even if it had not taken the hit it did. Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls. First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988. Departed the Falls, flew back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the engine halfway between the island and the mainland. Elected to force land on Grand Island. Got really busy just prior to touch down, division of attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low. Got the left gear leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube cluster. Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS. Also, the lower rear longerons always bent out of column as the result of a hard landing, or striking an immoveable object on the ground. I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo again. No way would I even consider reusing that H brace. john h mkIII Thom said he will trace the holes on to a paper and use it on the tailboom as a stencil, sounds like a good idea. Yesterday I got to fly with him over Niagara Falls. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Hey, I'm trying real hard to remain silent,,,,,,,,,,,,, but when you find the bible reference for that one ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, send it to Reverend Pike. :-) On Oct 9, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > I'm not going to go look it up, but I'm betting that it's: even a > fool is thought wise, if he remains silent. One I break all too > frequently. > > Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: firefly
Anybody on the list I am a Kolb KXP Firestar builder ,fly-er 500+ hrs I was in an accident at the TNK factory with Norm , may he rest in piece and I a m still in rehab learning to walk but my wish is to build and fly again . My question to you is does any body have a drawing of the Firefly plans .p articularly the wings ,structurally and the tail that you could email me a copy of thank you . Chris Davis=0A=0A=0A =0A_____________________ _______________________________________________________________=0ABe a bett er Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! A 6545469 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: Terry <tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
John Hauck wrote: > Hi Will: > > I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace. However, I would not consider > it, even if it had not taken the hit it did. > > Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls. > > First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988. Departed the Falls, > flew back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the engine halfway > between the island and the mainland. Elected to force land on Grand > Island. Got really busy just prior to touch down, division of > attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low. Got the left > gear leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube > cluster. Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS. > Also, the lower rear longerons always bent out of column as the result > of a hard landing, or striking an immoveable object on the ground. > > I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo again. No way would > I even consider reusing that H brace. > > john h > mkIII > Guy's, From one who has experienced his own personal disaster with a Kolb, I would recommend that you take heed of someone who has much more experience in the field of wrecking planes. I'm surprised that he tries as hard as he does to share his experience with the group, since many tend to ignore what he has learned. I found that John will share any and all knowledge he and his brother Jim have acquired over the years to this groups benefit. Discount this advice at your own peril !!! If you aspire to be the new test dummy that is you prerogative. I would rather learn as much as possible from those before me so that I might fly incident free! Terry - FireFly #95 750 hr.s ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Gene Z and other participants in this conversation: Well, you all could take this conversation back copy. I think you have enough participants to start a new email List. Seems to have drifted away for Kolb aircraft. For that matter, has even drifted away for VG's and as far East as Great Brittain. Would like to emphasize I am posting this one with kindness in my heart, trying to be as gentle as I can not to hurt anyones feelings or stir up a sh_t storm. Thanks for being considerate to the remaining couple hundred other Kolb Listers, john h mkIII PS: I know. I have a delete key, but should not have to use it this often. I'm trying real hard to remain silent,,,,,,,,,,,,, but when you find the bible reference for that one ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, send it to Reverend Pike. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: firefly
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Chris: Are you going to work on the hand controls for the FF? john h mkIII Anybody on the list I am a Kolb KXP Firestar builder ,fly-er 500+ hrs I was in an accident at the TNK factory with Norm , may he rest in piece and I am still in rehab learning to walk but my wish is to build and fly again .My question to you is does any body have a drawing of the Firefly plans .particularly the wings ,structurally and the tail that you could email me a copy of thank you . Chris Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: How many Ultrastars?
Just curious... anybody have any idea how many Ultrastars Kolb produced? Were they all kits or did they sell plans as well? I also wonder how many are still flying, though I'm sure that's an even tougher number to determine. -Dana -- -- No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com> ----- Original Message ----- Jack One of the energy absorption features of the spreading struts is the scrubbing of the tires on the ground for spring strut planes like the Cesnas. This is the principal dampening mechanism for the bouncing of the plane down the runway during landing. If you are seriously looking at the design of wheel struts, take a look at "Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft" Vol I by Ladislao Pazmany, ISBN 0-9616777-0-8. Chapter 9 will walk you through the FAA FAR23 requirements. While you dont need to meet these requirements you should understand their implications. .......................... Ron, Thanks for the heads up. I Googled and found an analysis for "Gyroplane Landing Gear Loads". What was interesting was that the FAA considered 2.0G as good enough for light aircraft. By substituting into the last equation: M = 0.8 x F x 20 - 0.215 x T x 16.25 = 6,570 in-pounds and solving for T the cable tension required to keep from bending the leg gives: T = (16 x F - 6570)/3.49 At 2.0G, F is equal to 500 pounds so T = 410 pounds. 1/16th inch diameter cable will break at 480 pounds. 15 gage bicycle spoke will break at 490 pounds. At 3.0G, F is equal to 750 pounds and T = 980 pounds. 3/32 inch diameter cable will break at 920 pounds. 12 gage bicycle spoke will break at 1050 pounds. Bicycle spokes would be easier to install and one could pretension them by using die compression springs. I believe I will start with the 3.0G bicycle spoke version. I have checked about ordering special length spokes but I do not know what gages are available. This is interesting. Thanks again. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: firefly
John, Perhaps in the future but I am trying everyday to go and drive down a long(1/4 mile) beach parking lot WITH MY FEET they still are on fire wit h pins and needles but it is getting a little easier each day ,. so perhap s the hand controls will be unnecessary! I HOPE Thanks Chris =0A=0A=0A =0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>=0A ubject: Re: Kolb-List: firefly=0A=0A=0AChris:=0A =0AAre you going to work o n the hand controls for the FF?=0A =0Ajohn h=0AmkIII=0A =0AAnybody on the l ist I am a Kolb KXP Firestar builder ,fly-er 500+ hrs I was in an accident at the TNK factory with Norm , may he rest in piece and I am still in rehab learning to walk but my wish is to build and fly again .My question to y ou is does any body have a drawing of the Firefly plans .particularly the wings ,structurally and the tail that you could email me a copy of thank y ======0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________________________ better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it ou ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
Anecdotal evidence to be sure, Jack, but consider this. Back in the beginning days of hang gliding, some manufacturers got the idea of using 1/8" cable as a hang strap for the pilot. Less drag was the big selling point, although worrying about drag on a standard Rogallo just seems retarded, now. But, the few who touted it went ahead and installed them. Why, the breaking strength is 2,000lb., so strong you don't even need a backup. We were all 170 lb. FAA size people then as we were still eating food at that time. Heck, this thing is good for nearly 12G's. Within weeks, several pilots had fallen from their wings. It seemed it really didn't take a big negative G going over the falls coming out of a thermal to produce one heck of a momentary load and *SNAP*. 1" tubular nylon hang straps, with a 5,000 lb. breaking strength and the ability to take a generous stretch became the norm after that, with hefty backups, too. Drag be darned. Just a thought, it is experimental aviation, after all. Rick On 10/9/07, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > > From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > Jack > > One of the energy absorption features of the spreading struts is the > scrubbing of the tires on the ground for spring strut planes like the > Cesnas. This is the principal dampening mechanism for the bouncing of the > plane down the runway during landing. > > If you are seriously looking at the design of wheel struts, take a look at > "Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft" Vol I by Ladislao Pazmany, ISBN > 0-9616777-0-8. Chapter 9 will walk you through the FAA FAR23 > requirements. > While you don't need to meet these requirements you should understand > their > implications. > .......................... > Ron, > > Thanks for the heads up. I Googled and found an analysis for "Gyroplane > Landing Gear Loads". What was interesting was that the FAA considered > 2.0G > as good enough for light aircraft. By substituting into the last > equation: > > M = 0.8 x F x 20 - 0.215 x T x 16.25 = 6,570 in-pounds > > and solving for T the cable tension required to keep from bending the leg > gives: > > T = (16 x F - 6570)/3.49 > > At 2.0G, F is equal to 500 pounds so T = 410 pounds. > 1/16th inch diameter cable will break at 480 pounds. > 15 gage bicycle spoke will break at 490 pounds. > > At 3.0G, F is equal to 750 pounds and T = 980 pounds. > 3/32 inch diameter cable will break at 920 pounds. > 12 gage bicycle spoke will break at 1050 pounds. > > Bicycle spokes would be easier to install and one could pretension them by > > using die compression springs. I believe I will start with the 3.0Gbicycle > spoke version. I have checked about ordering special length spokes but I > do > not know what gages are available. > > This is interesting. Thanks again. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: firefly
Bob , Thank you for your response has the Firefly remained then same for th e last 10 years ? if it has stayed the same ( at least structurally) I wo uld love to have it and would be glad to shake a hand on returning it and I will gladly pay the shipping in both directions if that works with you my address is. Chris Davis box 586 west chatham ma. 02669 Thank you ver y much P.S. how many hours do you have on your Firefly /I had 490+ on my Fi restar KXP in 10 years. Chris=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A From: Bob Noyer <a58r(at)verizon.net>=0ATo: kolb-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tu esday, October 9, 2007 6:59:18 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: firefly=0A=0ACh ris, =0A=0A=0AI have the original FF's drwing book...from abt '97. Could le nd it too you, with handshake for getting it back. Advise.=0A=0A=0A=0Aregar ds,=0ABob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb=0Ahttp://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ===========0A=0A=0A ______________________________ ______________________________________________________=0AFussy? Opinionated ? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: Larry Bourne <biglar(at)gogittum.com>
Subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
Hi Pat. I've kinda gotten out of the habit of the List lately. Very busy at work with new owners, re-modeling, the end of the fiscal year on Oct 1, and not out of the woods yet. How about you ?? Is the weather still good enuf for the cottage ?? Hope so, that looks like a nice way to spend a weekend. I've been more active lately on the weekends and have been doing quite a bit of climbing and hiking. Take a look at my new blog at: www.gogittum.com/blog New Mexico is a great place to live. Lar. pat ladd wrote: > > Hi Lar, > How are you. You have been very quiet lately. I was only saying to > Wendy yesterday that you hadn`t been very active on the list.. > > We were showing some friends some of the pics which you took at > Monument Valley and around Santa Fe. They may be coming to the Santa > Fe area next year. > How are things at work. They running you ragged? > > cheers > > Pat > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: Bob Noyer <a58r(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: firefly
Can't say what there differences are, if any. Can you ask TNK? I'll bundle and send in a coupla days. Altho I'm trying to sell FF, doubt if any action this late in year. My good wife has had three kinds of cancer, and recently four TIAs...causing me to be close by almost all the time, and not away. Been flying since solo '41, an very depressed at no longer so, bu we've been marrie more than 60 years, so I won't give up on her. Glad you are mending, even if it's slow going. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Subject: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
In a message dated 10/9/2007 1:37:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, riddletr(at)gmail.com writes: I understand why the boom broke the way it did but could not communicate it effectively to Bob Bean even when he saw the whole thing so I'm not sure I can communicate it to you and the rest of the group. Thom, My flying buddy has an original FireStar with the 5 rib wing. One day while parked, not tied down, the wind picked up the left wing and tipped the plane until the right wing hit the ground. The left main wheel came off the ground. Now the right wing tip, right main wheel and the tail wheel were supporting the plane on the ground. The wind continued to push the plane over onto its back. Damage was quite extensive and very similar to yours. The tail boom broke at the rear of the H section. You may have seen my report a year or so ago. We rebuilt it and modified the wings by installing 10 ribs, along with the 1/2" aluminum angle braces John h. talks about. Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: redrive
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Here is a new source for a VW redrive: http://www.polmotor-aviation.com/index.php?go=2 BB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: redrive
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Bob Thanks. The redrive looks good. Allot of questions come to mind. How much is it? How much does it weigh? Who well made is it? Does the redrive allow for up or down mounting? How effective is the harmonic dampener? Is it supported. I have too much time invested it the setup I have, it is light weight and runs smooth. I'm happy with what I have. Anyone else what to run with this one? Some thoughts: Weight is a problem with VWs you have to be very carful to keep the engine light. This geared redrive looks like it would add 23-25 or more lbs to the engine. The other geared redrive that some people talk about for Geos and VWs adds about that much weight. If the redrive is able to be mounted in the down the position the VW engine could be mounted on the stock Kolb mount with a adapter but the adapter for my direct drive VW added 5-8 lbs. The current Kolb VW mount wouldn't work with this redrive without a minor change. The mounting lugs for the bed type mount aren't spaced the same on the front and back of the engine. This redrive mounts the redrive on the flywheel end of the engine so the engine would need to mounted with the fly wheel end towards the back. The harmonic issues with my cog belt drive caused vibration cracking on exhaust, air cleaners and caused bolts to work loose. I know Gene Smith tried a number of harmonic dampeners on their cog belt drives and even tried a sparg clutch without much success. Even the 912 guys have exhaust system cracking due to engine prop harmonics. The one way slipping serpentine belt drive I have now is very smooth. Will these redrives be as smooth? I have in effect been the test pilot for composite props and Kolbs for the Valley redrive. Who wants to test pilot these. I'm not trying to scare you off from these redrives. I just want people to try these drive with your eyes open to the potential issues. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert bean" <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Kolb-List: redrive > > Here is a new source for a VW redrive: > > http://www.polmotor-aviation.com/index.php?go=2 > > BB > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: redrive
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Even the 912 guys have exhaust system > cracking due to engine prop harmonics. > Rick Neilsen Rick: I'm getting ready to load up and head West with my dirt bike and 5th wheel, but will take a minute to reply to this statement first. How did you determine we are having problems with 912 exhaust systems due to "engine/prop harmonics"? The STE system that I am using has a design problem of hard mounting attachment tabs to the each cyl head. There was a run of Titan exhaust systems that ran with improper outlet material. Stubs were not Rotax and not stout enough to handle the job. Not aware of any engine/prop harmonics. The torsional vibration system, that includes a slip clutch, does a great job keeping the 912 smooth.............. I plan on riding in NM, CO, UT, NV, AZ, CA, and if it ain't too cold, head up to the Rock House in SE corner of OR. Larry and Karen Cottrell hunt the hawk and falcon this month. I would love to be able to observe that, plus he and Karen are a hoot to hang out with and has a great area to ride the dirt bike. If you all want to have a cup of coffee, when I am in your area, send me a bc msg. I'd like to hook up some names and faces from the Kolb List. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HGRAFF(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Subject: Center Gap-seal coming loose
Our Kolb Mark III, 256KT, is in high speed taxi tests, with some airborne stretches in the taxi. The Center Gap-seal shed its hold down springs in back and also popped out of the center hold. Shortening the rear springs to increase tension didn't help, for it happened again a second time. That gap-seal must really flap about violently to shed its hold down springs. With the danger of it shedding a piece of itself, going through the prop, and getting flung into the control surfaces or denting the main boom, this needs a resolution prior to further "taxiing".. Has anybody experienced this, if yes, how was it fixed. In appreciation of a solution, which certainly must exist, Many thanks, Herb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Subject: Re: redrive
From: herbgh(at)juno.com
Richard Do not think it gets more elegant and therefore simple than the redrive you have on your engine.. Wondering how many hours you have on it by now? Herb ps what is the brand and pn of the belts? :-) writes: > > > Bob > > Thanks. The redrive looks good. Allot of questions come to mind. How > much is > it? How much does it weigh? Who well made is it? Does the redrive > allow for > up or down mounting? How effective is the harmonic dampener? Is it > supported. > > I have too much time invested it the setup I have, it is light > weight and > runs smooth. I'm happy with what I have. Anyone else what to run > with this > one? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Center Gap-seal coming loose
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Herb I never heard of this happening. Do you have a classic or extra. My classic center gap seal wraps around the leading edge and under the wings 5-6 inches. Then there is a hook in the center of the seal that hooks into hole in the top of the cage. I have bolts that stick out of the universal joints at the back of the wing that the seal is secured to with wing nuts and safety clips. Make sure when you install the seal that the hook in the center of the seal goes into the tube in the cage. The rear attachment appears to nothing more than to keep the seal from moving forward. Make sure that you have also covered the area under the seal with fabric. If this doesn't help maybe a photo of your seal and center section will help us help you. I once heard Dennis Souder say he designed the seal and it may be a bit overkill. That has always been my assessment so I'm surprised at your problem. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF(at)aol.com To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:18 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Center Gap-seal coming loose Our Kolb Mark III, 256KT, is in high speed taxi tests, with some airborne stretches in the taxi. The Center Gap-seal shed its hold down springs in back and also popped out of the center hold. Shortening the rear springs to increase tension didn't help, for it happened again a second time. That gap-seal must really flap about violently to shed its hold down springs. With the danger of it shedding a piece of itself, going through the prop, and getting flung into the control surfaces or denting the main boom, this needs a resolution prior to further "taxiing".. Has anybody experienced this, if yes, how was it fixed. In appreciation of a solution, which certainly must exist, Many thanks, Herb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: redrive
Running a new redrive can be such fun. I had a Ross on a Mazda 13B that needed so many modifications to fix it I eventually dumped the whole project. Little things like .38 end play on the input shaft (not a misprint, 3/8"), can be a real pain to correct. These guys have a slow website and I got tired of waiting, but another question to add is how is it lubricated. Some run the engine oil for the gearbox. Doubtful, but better to know before the box arrives. On the other hand, the Czechs and Poles have very high standards for metal work, if the dollar stops tanking, this could be real nice. Rick On 10/10/07, herbgh(at)juno.com wrote: > > > Richard > > Do not think it gets more elegant and therefore simple than the redrive > you have on your engine.. Wondering how many hours you have on it by > now? Herb > > > ps what is the brand and pn of the belts? :-) > > writes: > > > > > > Bob > > > > Thanks. The redrive looks good. Allot of questions come to mind. How > > much is > > it? How much does it weigh? Who well made is it? Does the redrive > > allow for > > up or down mounting? How effective is the harmonic dampener? Is it > > supported. > > > > I have too much time invested it the setup I have, it is light > > weight and > > runs smooth. I'm happy with what I have. Anyone else what to run > > with this > > one? > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: APilot(at)webtv.net
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Subject: Re: Center Gap-seal coming loose
The gap seal on the plans seemed somewhat light. I built a stronger assembly with a lower cross piece that extends one inch past the bottom of the wing so that it cannot blow up. I use positive hold metal at the rear with springs to hold them in place and nylon cords to keep them out of the prop if they should break. The rear can be held down with bolts and wing nuts or nut plates at a very little extra time in disassembly. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Center Gap-seal coming loose
Herb, Ditto to Rick's remarks, except my IIIC doesn't have the bolts Rick describes, just a couple of springs to hole the gap seal pulled tight around the leading edge. Is the Lexan completely framed by aluminum at the rear? Rick On 10/10/07, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > > Herb > > I never heard of this happening. Do you have a classic or extra. My > classic center gap seal wraps around the leading edge and under the wings > 5-6 inches. Then there is a hook in the center of the seal that hooks into > hole in the top of the cage. I have bolts that stick out of the universal > joints at the back of the wing that the seal is secured to with wing nuts > and safety clips. Make sure when you install the seal that the hook in the > center of the seal goes into the tube in the cage. The rear attachment > appears to nothing more than to keep the seal from moving forward. Make sure > that you have also covered the area under the seal with fabric. If this > doesn't help maybe a photo of your seal and center section will help us help > you. > > I once heard Dennis Souder say he designed the seal and it may be a bit > overkill. That has always been my assessment so I'm surprised at your > problem. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* HGRAFF(at)aol.com > *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:18 PM > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Center Gap-seal coming loose > > Our Kolb Mark III, 256KT, is in high speed taxi tests, with some airborne > stretches in the taxi. > > The Center Gap-seal shed its hold down springs in back and also popped out > of the center hold. > > Shortening the rear springs to increase tension didn't help, for it > happened again a second time. > > That gap-seal must really flap about violently to shed its hold down > springs. With the danger of it shedding a piece of itself, going through the > prop, and getting flung into the control surfaces or denting the main boom, > this needs a resolution prior to further "taxiing".. > > Has anybody experienced this, if yes, how was it fixed. > > In appreciation of a solution, which certainly must exist, > > Many thanks, Herb > > > ------------------------------ > See > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2007
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: H frame replacement
Thom, Consider the cost benefit ratio. How much does a new "H" brace cost versus the difficulty to match holes with the old one? How much will it cost if you don't get the holes spot on, or at least close enough to fix with the next oversize rivet?


September 28, 2007 - October 10, 2007

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