Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-hf
February 11, 2008 - February 27, 2008
the same to own.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
Ed, I still follow John H's advice on 2 stroke. Put the needles and
settings back to the factory setup. Then adjust your prop for 6500 in full
throttle level flight. Your temps should be fine. As far as flying pulled back
to
5200, IMHO, I run my 447 at 5800 to 6000 rpm. As you pull back the power
you will be leaning the engine and it will run hotter. I do all of my descents
at idle.
Steve
In a message dated 2/10/2008 11:20:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
DAquaNut(at)aol.com writes:
Group,
I am still plagued with too high of exhaust temps. I have tried different
jet needles needle jets and main jets but there seems to always be a hot spot
between 4000 and 5200 rpms. Question what is the minimum exhaust temp
that is recommended for the Rotax 447 ? On climb out with the 170 main
jet i am seeing 1000*. At other rpms, egts will get to 1150 or 1175. Will it
hurt anything if I run it with the EGTS at 1000* I have it propped for
6250 static and the heads are at 350 *or so most of the time. This 447 is such
a
royal pain. I am thinking of getting one of those in flight adjustable carb
mixture controls if I can.
Ed Diebel FF # 62
____________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
> Group,
>
> I am still plagued with too high of exhaust temps. I have tried
> different jet needles needle jets and main jets but there seems to
> always be a hot spot between 4000 and 5200 rpms. Question what
> is the minimum exhaust temp that is recommended for the Rotax 447 ?
> On climb out with the 170 main jet i am seeing 1000*. At other
> rpms, egts will get to 1150 or 1175. Will it hurt anything if I run
> it with the EGTS at 1000* I have it propped for 6250 static and the
> heads are at 350 *or so most of the time. This 447 is such a royal
> pain. I am thinking of getting one of those in flight adjustable carb
> mixture controls if I can.
>
>
> Ed Diebel FF # 62
Ed,
What exhaust temps are you looking for? I don't consider the numbers
your giving as being too high. Your head temps are up there, but still
tolerable. Why the 170 main jet which makes it leaner? 165 is stock.
What position is you needle clip in?
I run my 447 with the stock jet, 11G2 needle in the third notch from the
top, Head temps from 275 to 325 and exhaust temps from 1075 to 1175
depending on throttle some times peaking at 1200. Now have 795 hr.s on
it and running strong!
Check your Rotax service information manual and I think you will find
that your exhaust temps are actually low. I'm sure you are aware that
most of the gauges we use are not certified and can vary considerably
from one another.
Sounds like your prop pitch is OK by the static number you posted. I"m
closer to 6400 since altering my tips on my wood Tennessee prop.
Sounds like your running a little rich. Just my thought on the matter
for what they are worth!!!
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> |
Boyd
We have heard that claim for a number of years but with the current engine
prices the average person will never recover the cost differences. Even with
current gas prices I would bet that the difference put in savings, would
earn more than the operational $ differences.
The bigger concern is that those 2 stroke engines run real close to self
destruction. There are quite a few people that seem to keep them running
fine but if your not one of them keep a landing site in your flight plan.
Most four stroke engines just have more margin from self destruction.
I flew in a 503 powered MKIIIC and it was clearly having a hard life. I
would personally never leave the pattern or fly in/out of a short strip with
my 200+ lb. butt in one.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "boyd" <by0ung(at)brigham.net>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: 503 on MK-3
>
>
> A MK-3C with a 503 will cruise at 65MPH, single pilot, & will climb with a
> 200lb pilot steep enough, & at plenty of "feet per minute" to get out of
> a
> SHORT strip. I would not call that underpowered.
> : ) Jim
>
>
> Maybe at sea level... try it on a warm summer day at 7000 ft... while on
> a
> cross country,,,, you will be wising for a 912 or 912s also if you
> want
> to sell it,,,, which plane would sell better... the 912 cost more but
> operates for less, by the time you put on 1200 to 1500 hours,,, they cost
> the same to own.
>
> Boyd
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing AOA on Kolb MK III? |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
I think I know what your talking about however I don't see how the leading edge
effects wing AOA that much.
What kind of airfoil does the kolb have?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163523#163523
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Redrive VW on Kolbs Update |
Richard have you seen the liquid cooled heads that Great Plaines had or has? I
visited their web site a few minutes ago and cannot find their liquid cooled heads.
Wonder what happened...
Ron (Texas)
===========================
---- Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
============
Wow that is a ridicules price. I have to believe that this is a engine
package not just the engine and also might be the 100HP 912. The last price
I heard from the US distributor in November and it was $18,000 for the 100HP
engine only.
The important thing is that the 912 series engines are way over priced. The
redrive VW is a virtual match for the 912 series. The engine Rick Lewis is
putting on his plane has the potential of out performing the 100HP rotax if
he chooses to. The reliability could suffer with high power continues usage
but only time will tell where significant reliability suffers. My air-cooled
heads tend to over heat when pushed for very long above 80HP.
I have an article being scheduled for the April issue in the EAA's Spot
Pilot & Light-Sport Aircraft Magazine. It is called "Quest for Affordable
Power". The timing couldn't be better. I talk about the VW engine package
being $10,000 less than the 80HP rotax. Based on this new price, the
difference will be much greater. I'm also pushing Great Planes Aircraft and
New Kolb to communicate and maybe offer a engine package. The only remaining
part that isn't off the shelf is an exhaust system that I'm try to get
someone to produce it.
I'm still trying to tune a prop for best overall performance. Last year I
choose to pitch my prop for cruise performance at 3200 RPM. My climb out was
in the 3400-3500 range depending on speed. The ideal climb RPM would be
around 3800 RPM where climb rates would be spectacular with maybe 20 more
HP. The Redrive VW even with the current prop and pitch is close to 912
performance. I have had the prop cut down by an inch to 71 inch diameter and
will report the results when I get back to Michigan in the spring.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)hughes.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:05 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 503 on MK-3
>
> I found out the other day, from Travis at Kolb, the latest price for a
> Rotax 912 is $21,000. So much for a reasonable price engine from them.
> There engines are good but NOT that good. [Rolling Eyes]
>
>
> Rick Lewis
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163385#163385
>
>
>
--
kugelair.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing AOA on Kolb MK III? |
At 01:36 PM 2/11/2008, grantr wrote:
>I think I know what your talking about however I don't see how the leading
>edge effects wing AOA that much.
>
>What kind of airfoil does the kolb have?
The leading edge of the Kolb airfoils are formed by the front spar, which
is a relatively small diameter tubing tangent to the lower surface. AOA
is, of course, measured from the chord line, which is the line running from
the frontmost point on the wing (about the middle of that tube) to the
trailing edge. On a more conventional airfoil, the leading edge radius is
both larger, which puts that frontmost point higher relative to the lower
surface, and additionally the lower surface usually starts to curve up to
meet the leading edge radius, so angle between the chord line and the lower
surface is greater. The upshot of all this is that at the same lower
surface angle, the Kolb airfoil's AOA will be less than a more conventional
airfoil, or, conversely, at the same true AOA, the Kolb _looks_ like it's
at a higher AOA.
I could be wrong, but I'd guess the Kolbs use a TLAR airfoil ("That Looks
About Right"), with its shape based as much on the materials and
construction technique used as on aerodynamics. The result is a high
camber airfoil, good for low speed and climb, not so great for speed.
FWIW, the early Quicksilvers had a "670-15" airfoil, which was made by
bending a thin aluminum tube for one-half of it's length over a 670-15 car
tire; it was about 12% camber.
-Dana
--
Nowadays only a lawyer can tell legal from illegal, and the lawyers don't
know the difference between right and wrong.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing AOA on Kolb MK III? |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
Well just take all those aerodynamics and throw them in the trash! LOL TLAR usually
works very well. It does on my R/C airplane.
Wow I didn't know that about the Quicksilvers.
I looked at my wing on my MK III when I got home and it appears to be a completely
flat bottom wing. Its hard to tell in the trailer.
I think flat bottoms do make more lift than cambered bottom wings. It also adds
more drag I think.
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163597#163597
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Redrive VW on Kolbs Update |
| From: | "cspoke" <cspoke(at)gulftel.com> |
Rick and all,
I am building a Mark 111 Xtra and will be using the VW for power. I ordered the
engine mount from Kolb and I am in the process of welding it on my frame now.
I was a very straight forward retrofit and I am very pleased with it. I talked
to Steve at Great Plains today and asked him about the liquid cooled heads.
He said that the company that made them discontinued because of lack of interest.
Too bad, I think that they had a good idea. I will keep you all posted on
my progress. I hope to have it flying this summer. Rick, keep me posted on your
results with the props. I would be very interested in your findings. Maybe as
more kolbers decide to use the VW, Great Plains and Kolb will start producing
engine packages.
--------
Craig Spoke
Mark 111 Xtra (in the works)
Lillian, AL
cspoke(at)gulftel.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163600#163600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning up a Mark-III |
I have thought that this was an interference area. My thoughts are to add two
or three larger type vortex generators to each side so that the air will spin
and climb to the area of the prop for more prop efficiency. Easy to try. Vic
in Sacramento
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JVanLaak(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Incidence and AOA on a MkIII |
Guys,
I am new to this list but built one of the first Firestars back in 89.
Loved the plane and frankly wish I had one now.
The point to watch in this discussion is probably less the incidence of the
wing than the trim of the tail. The pitch attitude of the airplane will be
dominated by the incidence of the wing but as has been said you will hardly
notice the difference except for when you lift off on takeoff.
But the trim difference could be a little more problematic and it is driven
by the difference in incidence between the wing and tail. I don't quite
remember the last post but if the leading edge of the stabilizer was too high
relative to the wing it would mean less nose up power. There is lots of tail
power in most kolbs but if a non-standard engine is used or some other
non-standard element sneaks in there is the potential for a surprise.
If on the other hand, the angle between the tail and wing agree there is
little problem and I agree that changing it is probably not mandatory, but I
would want to think about all implications. It would be good to be back in the
middle of the designers box.
Jim Van Laak
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing Incidence and AOA on a MkIII |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
When I talked to Kolb last time, they gave me all the correct incidence values
from the engine mount being level. Then you can measure wings, tail, and boom
incidence.
The new MK III 's have a 4 hole adjustable front attachment for the leading edge
of the horizontal stab. Talk to Kolb, make sure you have the correct values,
and if you do decide to drill that out, put the adjustable bracket on your boom.
That way you wont be redrilling a bunch of times if the trim of your plane
does not work out exactly as planned, you just change the hole the leading
edge attaches to.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163694#163694
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Steve Boetto wrote:
> Ed, I still follow John H's advice on 2 stroke. Put the needles and settings
back to the factory setup. Then adjust your prop for 6500 in full throttle
level flight. Your temps should be fine. As far as flying pulled back to 5200,
IMHO, I run my 447 at 5800 to 6000 rpm. As you pull back the power you
will be leaning the engine and it will run hotter. I do all of my descents at
idle.
>
> Steve
>
>
You should not have to change your jets. Set up the carb as per manufacturers
specs, everything where the manual says, and then pitch your prop to get the temps
you want. After trying a lot of different things, this worked on the 447
that I fly. More pitch = lower temps and was the most effective at controlling
temps and resulted in the smoothest running engine. BTW 1000 EGT on climbout
is fine, it can even be a down in the 900's in climb without a problem., dont
expect to be seeing the same temps on cruise and climbout, they will change
a lot.
1175 is to high in cruise, put some more pitch in your prop, just increasing the
prop pitch for 100 RPM less static RPM will bring that cruise temp right down
to where you want it. My static RPM is very close to 6000 RPM.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163705#163705
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Incidence and AOA on a MkIII |
Here is what I did. I set the Mark III at cruise speed and measured the stick
distance from the instrument panel. Then, back on the ground I set it to the
same distance and checked the elevator to the stabilizer. It was level. Therefore,
I think that the AOL of approx. 9 degrees is about right.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning up a Mark-III |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
John Hauck wrote:
> > Earlier Mark-IIIs (like Hauck's) had fabric all the way up to the bottom
>
> > of the wing, like the Firestar.
> >
> > Dennis Kirby
> >
> >
>
> Dennis:
>
> Seemed to me to be an ideal place to put a big fuel tank and get some use
> out of that big empty space. We ended up with a nice 25 gal useable
> aluminum tank.
>
> Nope, that is an original Hauck design change, not Kolb.
>
> john h
> mkIII
That is a lot of gas !
Can you carry 2 people with full gas if you want to ? How much weight have you
carried in your MK III ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163730#163730
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning up a Mark-III |
> Can you carry 2 people with full gas if you want to ? How much weight
have you carried in your MK III ?
>
> Mike
Mike B:
Yes, my mkIII flies with two up, their camping and survival gear, food, and
clothes, plus 25 gallons (150 lbs) fuel.
Brother Jim and I flew to Cedar Mills, TX, in 1998, for their flyin on Lake
Texoma. From their down to Dallas and then back to Alabama. It was very
hot during that trip. We cruised 8,500 feet to get a little relief from the
heat.
Flies pretty good loaded up. After about a week of taking off at max gross,
near 1,200 lbs, the feel of the heavy mkIII becomes normal, and I do not
have those feelings that it may be flying a little sluggish. Except, of
course, when the DA is extremely high and elevation is well above a mile.
Then climb is degraded for a mkIII. Which means, we ain't climbing 1500 to
2000 feet per minute.
Have put a lot of hours on Miss P'fer with take off weight at 1,200 lbs.
She does good.
One of the nice things about flying to and in Alaska is low altitude. Most
areas are 2,500 feet and down. I can fly to the North Slope through Atigun
Pass, but must climb to 5,000 feet or higher to get through. By flying from
Bettles to Anaktuvuk Pass, I don't have to get much over 2,500 feet to get
to the North Slope.
Today, chores are keeping me at 350 feet msl. ;-(
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Kolb Mark III Xtra Panel / Instrument Pod Setup |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
I have seen some questions from time to time as to how setup the instrumentation
in the Kolb MK III Xtra Panel / Instrument Pod. Mine has undergone several
changes, and here is the latest which I like very much.
I have never been a fan of those Micro Air transponders and radios, I have never
tried them but have heard some negative comments about them from time to time...
So from the beginning I went with full sized, full performance avionics.
Garmin Transponder, ATC always sees me even far out, it works... The ICOM
210 is the best I radio I have ever used, and the best intercom I have ever
used, and both are built all into one unit. I can usually hear the airport ATIS
further out than I have fuel for, and communications range is great. The intercom
and radio both have a bunch of programmable features selectable via the
menu and works great in a high noise environment like a Kolb.
There are a lot of ways to make this panel, but this is very " Pilot Friendly "
and has exactly what I need to fly cross country right in front of me while not
having anything extra that blocks the great view outside, which is exactly
what flying a Kolb is all about :)
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163742#163742
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolbmkiiipanel_139.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Travis just told me about this fuel tank yesterday, and that looks SWEET !!! I
have long wanted more fuel, but did not want to take a hacksaw to my cage either.
18 gallons is perfect, I'm glad they went to the trouble to put an extra
couple gallons in it... 16 gallons is better, but still not enough to go far
and still have a good reserve and justify the price. The 18 gallon tank is big
enough to do some serious cross country and makes it well worth the price !
I will be buying one next week :)
Check out Kolbs video of the installation at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSQdnRwsUF8
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163743#163743
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The BaronVonEvil" <grageda(at)innw.net> |
Hi Dana,
I don't know the reason for Kolb's change of heart about the lasers but I do recall
seeing them for sale on ebay a few years ago. I believe there were three
aircraft involved in that sale ( no engine or instruments).
Somebody has them but I haven't seen them in the press or in the sale section of
any common web sites.
You might give Travis a call at Kolb to see if he knows of its history.
Carlos G
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163779#163779
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
I believe there were three aircraft involved in that sale ( no engine or
instruments).
>
> Carlos G
Carlos:
To the best of my knowledge, I remember two Lasers. The initial prototype
was flown at OSH and LAL.
June 1993, I flew up to Homer Kolb's. Spent three weeks painting the second
Laser. We hung it in Homer's hanger. It never flew. That Laser went to
London, KY, when TNK bought Kolb. It ended up getting cut up in an
attempted redesign.
Not sure, but think somebody bought what was left of both of them.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
In a message dated 2/12/2008 12:42:26 P.M. Central Standard Time,
orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:
More pitch = lower temps and was the most effective at controlling temps and
resulted in the smoothest running engine. BTW 1000 EGT on climbout is
fine, it can even be a down in the 900's in climb without a problem., dont expect
to be seeing the same temps on cruise and climbout, they will change a lot.
1175 is to high in cruise, put some more pitch in your prop, just increasing
the prop pitch for 100 RPM less static RPM will bring that cruise temp right
down to where you want it. My static RPM is very close to 6000 RPM.
Mike
More pitch= lower EGTS More pitch= higher CHTS When I add pitch it
causes my Chts to go up around 400* I need a balance between EGTS and CHTS.
DO I go up on my main jets until my hot spots dont go over 1175 * It
gets the hottest around 4000 rpm and 5000 rpm. I just dont want to creat a
situation that causes excess carbon. There is another guy here running 180 main
jets in his 447 in a J-3 Kitten. I think I Think I am going to raise my
main jet size until it does not get above 1175* at anytime. My plugs are very
light in color and I have had the engine run a little rough and when I pull
the enrichener the roughness smoothed out .
Ed FF # 62
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
> So what happened? Was TNK simply not interested in developing or
marketing
> the design?
>
> -Dana
Dana:
I don't know why TNK did not develope the Laser.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | 3 Kolb Lasers for sale - Repost from 2002 |
Hi Folks, this may answer some of your questions regarding the Laser.
jerb
>From: "S Ferkey" <sferkey(at)charter.net>
>To:
>Subject: Kolb-List: 3 Kolb Lasers for sale
>Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:35:29 -0500
>Sender: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
>Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>3 Kolb Lasers For Sale or Trade: I purchased these three Low Wing,
>two place side by side planes from Kolb two years ago after they
>decided to hold off on puting them into full production. One of the
>planes is the red one most of us saw Dennis Souder flying at Sun N'
>Fun and in the Kolb video as well as in the feature story of Kit
>Planes. I also have the white powder coated Laser fusalage we've
>all seen at Sun N' Fun and Oshkosh complete with center section,
>cowling, canopy, ect. Finally, I have a third identical Laser
>complete fusalage, tail feathers, and miscellaneous parts. My
>career will no longer afford me the time to dedicate to puting these
>planes in the air so I am selling all three of them together for a
>total asking price of $14,800. I am selling the planes as I bought
>them, less engine and instruments and "for parts" to avoid any
>liability issues. I have the Kolb Laser Video as well as most of
>the Laser literature and specifications. I will also consider tr!
>ades, aviation related or not. Please contact Sheldon Ferkey at my
>email address sferkey(at)charter.net or at my phone number 715-887-4363
>or 715-421-3500.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
Ed, I'll go on record with the others who have recommended that before you
do anything else you set the jets and needles back to stock. Record and
report back what your results are.
By going back to stock I mean setting the idle screw jet at .5 turns out, a
165 main jet, 2.70 needle jet and a 15K2 jet needle with the clip set at the
#2 position from the top as specified in the Bing manual and the Rotax
Illustrated Parts Catalog (page 9.3.1-7).
Check the carburetor boot for cracks and that the clamps are properly
tightened.
Check the spark plugs that they are the right type (B8ES) and correct gap
(.018") and the caps are 5K ohm resistance and fit on the plug with a snap.
Check the fan belt tension. If you have run the engine more than 10 hours it
probably needs adjustment.
On the 447 I set up on a trike last October I set the prop to give 6200 RPM
static which resulted in 6500 WOT in level flight.
After breakin the engine would approach 450 degrees on full throttle climb
out and settled down to 380 during cruise at 5500 RPM.
Per Rotax Operation Manual, page 10-1 CHT's measured at the spark plug seat
have a max of 500 degrees F and a normal operating range of 374 to 446
degrees F. Differences between cylinders are 36 degrees F max.
As for EGT's, Rotax gives no recommendations for the 447, although the 503
max EGT is 1200 degrees.
These condiditons will give you a baseline from which to start. If you just
start changing things you are probably headed for grief.
Just my opinion, yours may vary.
Rick
On Feb 12, 2008 9:59 PM, wrote:
> In a message dated 2/12/2008 12:42:26 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:
>
> More pitch = lower temps and was the most effective at controlling temps
> and resulted in the smoothest running engine. BTW 1000 EGT on climbout is
> fine, it can even be a down in the 900's in climb without a problem., dont
> expect to be seeing the same temps on cruise and climbout, they will change
> a lot.
>
> 1175 is to high in cruise, put some more pitch in your prop, just
> increasing the prop pitch for 100 RPM less static RPM will bring that cruise
> temp right down to where you want it. My static RPM is very close to 6000
> RPM.
>
> Mike
>
> More pitch= lower EGTS More pitch= higher CHTS When I
> add pitch it causes my Chts to go up around 400* I need a balance between
> EGTS and CHTS. DO I go up on my main jets until my hot spots dont go over
> 1175 * It gets the hottest around 4000 rpm and 5000 rpm. I just dont
> want to creat a situation that causes excess carbon. There is another guy
> here running 180 main jets in his 447 in a J-3 Kitten. I think I Think
> I am going to raise my main jet size until it does not get above 1175* at
> anytime. My plugs are very light in color and I have had the engine run a
> little rough and when I pull the enrichener the roughness smoothed out
> .
>
>
> Ed FF # 62
>
>
> ------------------------------
> The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL
> Music takes you there.<http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
Ed,
One important thing you want to consider with all of the advise your
receiving from the "experts" is just how much time have they put on
their 447 without breaking it down! Are they willing to tell you ? I
listen to a real 2 cycle pro!!
795 hr.s without breakdown or de-carboning and going strong!
Terry - Firefly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="tkrolfe(at)toast.net"]Ed,
One important thing you want to consider with all of the advise your receiving
from the "experts" is just how much time have they put on their 447 without breaking
it down! Are they willing to tell you ? I listen to a real 2 cycle
pro!!
795 hr.s without breakdown or de-carboning and going strong!
Terry - Firefly #95
> [b]
You have my attention, but you did not give any advice or techniques... If you
have some good advice, by all means publish it here so we can compare setups
and results.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163917#163917
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
I happen to have both a MK III Xtra and a digital level, I sent you an email.
Forecast is looking good tomorrow, I plan on flying :) I can measure anything
you need while I am at the hangar.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163925#163925
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
In a message dated 2/13/2008 12:37:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:
On the 447 I set up on a trike last October I set the prop to give 6200 RPM
static which resulted in 6500 WOT in level flight.
After breakin the engine would approach 450 degrees on full throttle climb
out and settled down to 380 during cruise at 5500 RPM.
Per Rotax Operation Manual, page 10-1 CHT's measured at the spark plug seat
have a max of 500 degrees F and a normal operating range of 374 to 446
degrees F. Differences between cylinders are 36 degrees F max.
As for EGT's, Rotax gives no recommendations for the 447, although the 503
max EGT is 1200 degrees.
These condiditons will give you a baseline from which to start. If you just
start changing things you are probably headed for grief.
Just my opinion, yours may vary.
Rick
My 447 has never seen CHTS higher than 400*. If you are suggesting its ok
to run with the heads at 400* I can put in more pitch which will cool the
CHTS quite a bit I am certain ,but I am fearful of running with 400* CHTS as I
Know of a guy that had a 503 seize at 400* CHTS. I seem to have higher EGTS
now that I am forced to run 10% alcohol, as that is all that is available in
Houston.
Ed
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
In a message dated 2/13/2008 2:24:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:
795 hr.s without breakdown or de-carboning and going strong!
Terry - Firefly #95
Terry,
I cant argue with your success. So far your are doing
something right obviously ! What are your lowest EGT readings? What are your
highest CHT readings? Oh by the way I built 3 pair of the 4130 gear legs per
your prints and had em hardened to Rockwell 47. I figured I would have needed
them by now the way everyone was bending aluminum ones when I was still
building. So far I havent needed them with over 300 landings. Those alum gear
legs are tougher than I was led to believe by others on the list. Its comforting
to know there is some forgiveness with the alum legs.
Ed FF #62
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
Ed, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but more pitch should send the CHT
readings up, not down. More pitch would bring the EGT's down.
If you still have a calibrated iron from covering you can check the CHT
sender to see if it's working properly. Or borrow a laser thermometer and
check the readings you're getting with that.
Rick
On Feb 13, 2008 9:40 PM, wrote:
> In a message dated 2/13/2008 12:37:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:
>
> On the 447 I set up on a trike last October I set the prop to give 6200
> RPM static which resulted in 6500 WOT in level flight.
> After breakin the engine would approach 450 degrees on full throttle climb
> out and settled down to 380 during cruise at 5500 RPM.
> Per Rotax Operation Manual, page 10-1 CHT's measured at the spark plug
> seat have a max of 500 degrees F and a normal operating range of 374 to 446
> degrees F. Differences between cylinders are 36 degrees F max.
> As for EGT's, Rotax gives no recommendations for the 447, although the 503
> max EGT is 1200 degrees.
> These condiditons will give you a baseline from which to start. If you
> just start changing things you are probably headed for grief.
> Just my opinion, yours may vary.
>
> Rick
>
> My 447 has never seen CHTS higher than 400*. If you are
> suggesting its ok to run with the heads at 400* I can put in more pitch
> which will cool the CHTS quite a bit I am certain ,but I am fearful of
> running with 400* CHTS as I Know of a guy that had a 503 seize at 400*
> CHTS. I seem to have higher EGTS now that I am forced to run 10% alcohol,
> as that is all that is available in Houston.
>
>
> Ed
>
>
> ------------------------------
> The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL
> Music takes you there.<http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
In a message dated 2/13/2008 11:20:52 P.M. Central Standard Time,
jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:
Ed, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but more pitch should send the CHT
readings up, not down. More pitch would bring the EGT's down.
If you still have a calibrated iron from covering you can check the CHT
sender to see if it's working properly. Or borrow a laser thermometer and check
the readings you're getting with that.
Rick
My mistake Rick! I intended to say more pitch will cool my EGTS. My head
temps go up with more pitch. With the Ivo pitched for 6250 RPM I am seeing
350-375* CHTS If I increase the pitch to bring down egts my heads go up around
400* or so. I guess I will crank in a little more pitch and see what happens.
Ed
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor |
Hi Folks,
The scroungers that we ultralighters are, I'm leaning upon your
knowledge for a source for a electric 120VAC fraction HP motor (say
of 1/5-1/4) with a gear reduction unit on it. Would like to get down
to around 12 RPM. Might be required to do one more step down using a
chain drive.
I need a cheap source for one or two of these for the purpose of
building a soda/beer can crusher. My other option which is easy to
do is using a pneumatic air cylinder but then I have to have a
compressed air source available to use it.
There are devices called activators that might work if I could find a
source and figure out how to properly select one. Require a
stroke/slide movement some where around 5-1/2 to 6". Some times these
used for flap extension.
Look on youtube.com and search for video on can crushers if your
interested. Like airplanes, some implementations are better than others.
Any leads would be appreciated/ Could find cylinders but couldn't
find anything cheap in motors that met my needs on eBay.
Thanks,
jerb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tc1917" <tc1917(at)hughes.net> |
as long as the subject has been breached and it is a fact now in many states
and places, has anyone had any type of effect on running or temps on the 912
series, 80 or 100 hp naturally aspirated engines, using the 10% alky they
are forcing upon us? I have a 912 80 hp and would like to know what to
watch for. Seems a 4 cycle should pretty much just burn it. I would think
the new (less than 6 moss) crab and related systems should be alky proof.
Shouldn't have to change the lines either. Anyone having any problem out
there with this stuff -- yet? Ted Cowan, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Aaron Gustafson" <agustafson(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor |
Surplus Center (try Google)
Aaron
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerb" <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:56 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor
>
> Hi Folks,
> The scroungers that we ultralighters are, I'm leaning upon your knowledge
> for a source for a electric 120VAC fraction HP motor (say of 1/5-1/4) with
> a gear reduction unit on it. Would like to get down to around 12 RPM.
> Might be required to do one more step down using a chain drive.
>
> I need a cheap source for one or two of these for the purpose of building
> a soda/beer can crusher. My other option which is easy to do is using a
> pneumatic air cylinder but then I have to have a compressed air source
> available to use it.
>
> There are devices called activators that might work if I could find a
> source and figure out how to properly select one. Require a stroke/slide
> movement some where around 5-1/2 to 6". Some times these used for flap
> extension.
>
> Look on youtube.com and search for video on can crushers if your
> interested. Like airplanes, some implementations are better than others.
> Any leads would be appreciated/ Could find cylinders but couldn't find
> anything cheap in motors that met my needs on eBay.
> Thanks,
> jerb
>
>
> --
> 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Morning Gang:
My 912ULS falls into the bracket for replacing the gears reference a recent
Rotax SB.
Flying down to Lucedale, MS, this morning, 185 miles, to South Mississippi
Light Aircraft, to get the job done. Ronnie Smith will get'er done, and I
hope to fly back to Gantt IAP before dark this evening.
Beautiful day to fly, not a cloud in the sky, and no wind. Only a slight
problem. Was 20F when I got up this morning and barely bumping 23F a couple
hours later. Supposed to get to 60F this afternoon. I have my Chillee Vest
(12VDC) and abundant sunshine for the canopy. With thermal drawers, I
should be able to stay reasonably warm. We shall see. I haven't done any
"real" cold weather flying in a long, long time.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor |
| From: | greg(at)skyelink.com |
>
>
> Surplus Center (try Google)
>
> Aaron
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerb" <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
> To: "jerryb"
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:56 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor
>
>
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>> The scroungers that we ultralighters are, I'm leaning upon your
>> knowledge
>> for a source for a electric 120VAC fraction HP motor (say of 1/5-1/4)
>> with
>> a gear reduction unit on it. Would like to get down to around 12 RPM.
>> Might be required to do one more step down using a chain drive.
>>
>> I need a cheap source for one or two of these for the purpose of
>> building
>> a soda/beer can crusher. My other option which is easy to do is using a
>> pneumatic air cylinder but then I have to have a compressed air source
>> available to use it.
>>
>> There are devices called activators that might work if I could find a
>> source and figure out how to properly select one. Require a
>> stroke/slide
>> movement some where around 5-1/2 to 6". Some times these used for flap
>> extension.
>>
>> Look on youtube.com and search for video on can crushers if your
>> interested. Like airplanes, some implementations are better than
>> others.
>> Any leads would be appreciated/ Could find cylinders but couldn't find
>> anything cheap in motors that met my needs on eBay.
>> Thanks,
>> jerb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM
>>
>>
>
>
> Aaron
You might wont to try wwganger for your motor they have alot of gear
reduction motor to pick from.
Greg Allison MIIIX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 447 exhaust temperarures |
Ed, have you checked the belt tension? If it's slipping, that could account
for a lot. Also, how is the airpath to the fan inlet?
Rick
On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:44 PM, wrote:
> In a message dated 2/13/2008 11:20:52 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:
>
> Ed, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but more pitch should send the CHT
> readings up, not down. More pitch would bring the EGT's down.
> If you still have a calibrated iron from covering you can check the CHT
> sender to see if it's working properly. Or borrow a laser thermometer and
> check the readings you're getting with that.
>
> Rick
>
> My mistake Rick! I intended to say more pitch will cool my
> EGTS. My head temps go up with more pitch. With the Ivo pitched for 6250 RPM
> I am seeing 350-375* CHTS If I increase the pitch to bring down egts my
> heads go up around 400* or so. I guess I will crank in a little more pitch
> and see what happens.
>
>
> Ed
>
>
> ------------------------------
> The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL
> Music takes you there.<http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor |
Definitely Surplus Center unless your trust fund is overflowing.;-)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID 08021409432459&catname=electric&keyword=GRAD
Rick
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 8:06 AM, wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Surplus Center (try Google)
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jerb" <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
> > To: "jerryb"
> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:56 AM
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Folks,
> >> The scroungers that we ultralighters are, I'm leaning upon your
> >> knowledge
> >> for a source for a electric 120VAC fraction HP motor (say of 1/5-1/4)
> >> with
> >> a gear reduction unit on it. Would like to get down to around 12 RPM.
> >> Might be required to do one more step down using a chain drive.
> >>
> >> I need a cheap source for one or two of these for the purpose of
> >> building
> >> a soda/beer can crusher. My other option which is easy to do is using
> a
> >> pneumatic air cylinder but then I have to have a compressed air source
> >> available to use it.
> >>
> >> There are devices called activators that might work if I could find a
> >> source and figure out how to properly select one. Require a
> >> stroke/slide
> >> movement some where around 5-1/2 to 6". Some times these used for flap
> >> extension.
> >>
> >> Look on youtube.com and search for video on can crushers if your
> >> interested. Like airplanes, some implementations are better than
> >> others.
> >> Any leads would be appreciated/ Could find cylinders but couldn't find
> >> anything cheap in motors that met my needs on eBay.
> >> Thanks,
> >> jerb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Aaron
> You might wont to try wwganger for your motor they have alot of gear
> reduction motor to pick from.
>
> Greg Allison MIIIX
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction motor |
Don't see what's Kolb-related about a can crusher, but all Kolbers
can find good, cheap motors & many other things at SCIPLUS.COM,
888-724-7587. AKA American Science & Surplus. Fun browsing the
catalog too.
On Feb 14, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Aaron Gustafson wrote:
>
>
> Surplus Center (try Google)
>
> Aaron
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerb" <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
> To: "jerryb"
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:56 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Off UL Topic - Looking for source of reduction
> motor
>
>
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>> The scroungers that we ultralighters are, I'm leaning upon your
>> knowledge for a source for a electric 120VAC fraction HP motor
>> (say of 1/5-1/4) with a gear reduction unit on it. Would like to
>> get down to around 12 RPM. Might be required to do one more step
>> down using a chain drive.
>>
>> I need a cheap source for one or two of these for the purpose of
>> building a soda/beer can crusher. My other option which is easy
>> to do is using a pneumatic air cylinder but then I have to have a
>> compressed air source available to use it.
>>
>> There are devices called activators that might work if I could
>> find a source and figure out how to properly select one. Require
>> a stroke/slide movement some where around 5-1/2 to 6". Some times
>> these used for flap extension.
>>
>> Look on youtube.com and search for video on can crushers if your
>> interested. Like airplanes, some implementations are better than
>> others.
>> Any leads would be appreciated/ Could find cylinders but couldn't
>> find anything cheap in motors that met my needs on eBay.
>> Thanks,
>> jerb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/13/2008 2:24:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:
>
>
> 795 hr.s without breakdown or de-carboning and going strong!
>
> Terry - Firefly #95
>
> *
> *
>
> Terry,
>
> I cant argue with your success. So far your are doing
> something right obviously ! What are your lowest EGT readings? What
> are your highest CHT readings? Oh by the way I built 3 pair of the
> 4130 gear legs per your prints and had em hardened to Rockwell 47. I
> figured I would have needed them by now the way everyone was bending
> aluminum ones when I was still building. So far I havent needed them
> with over 300 landings. Those alum gear legs are tougher than I was
> led to believe by others on the list. Its comforting to know there is
> some forgiveness with the alum legs.
>
> Ed FF #62
Ed,
My lowest EGT's are 1075 and my highest CHT's are 325. I swing a
Tennessee wood prop that is 66 dia. with a 33 pitch as per the Original
Kolb Co. prescription. I hope you took note that I'm using a different
needle from stock, but more importantly is that I fly (cruise) at a much
lower RPM than most. Usually between 4800 and 5200 RPM. Your choice of
oil is a big factor as to the amount of carbon build up and a very hotly
debated issue here on the list.
Obviously, your flying skills are right up there since you haven't bent
your gear legs yet. Can't say I did as well.
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
JetPilot wrote:
>
> [quote="tkrolfe(at)toast.net"]Ed,
>
> One important thing you want to consider with all of the advise your receiving
from the "experts" is just how much time have they put on their 447 without
breaking it down! Are they willing to tell you ? I listen to a real 2 cycle
pro!!
>
> 795 hr.s without breakdown or de-carboning and going strong!
>
> Terry - Firefly #95
>
>
>> [b]
>>
>
>
> You have my attention, but you did not give any advice or techniques... If
you have some good advice, by all means publish it here so we can compare setups
and results.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
Mike,
If you had bothered to read any of my past postings to the list, you
would have seen that I did spell out what I'm doing. Suggest you go
back and look and while at it, look at more of the long time list
contributors that have posted what they learned from their long
experience. Much can be gained my listening to them.
I have found that an open mouth precludes the functioning of both the
ears and intellect. I try to digest what the guys that have more time
and experience than I do have to say and then choose my own actions.
Too, bad we lost one of those recently due to his disgust with the tone
of the list lately!
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Hi Gang:
Got new gears in my gear box.
Despite Arctic weather in the Heart of Dixie this morning, I persevered,
plugged in the Chilli Vest, and flew down to Lucedale, MS.
Ronnie Smith pulled the gearbox, crankshaft gear, swapped out the new gears,
shimmed the gearbox, while I cleaned up the flange faces and got them ready
for a new super duper sealant. In a little more than an hour, I had run up
the engine, checked for leaks, and was headed back to Gantt IAP.
Thought I would be sitting pretty in the sunshine down and back. Wrong!
Was in the shade of the left wing going southwest and right wing heading for
the house.
Flew 380.3 miles in 4.2 hours. Not bad for a big fat ultralight.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
On my Mark III, the draft comes from the tube air coming forward to fill the vacuum
caused by the nose cone. I just wear a hood.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Firestar project |
Progress on the old Firestar-
The patching of hole in the ailerons is coming along nicely. I am letting everything
gas off for a few days before putting the Aerothane on the first wing.
I do have a tip on sanding. I had a couple of lumps where coats of product
had sagged after being brushed on, and were difficult to sand. I used a sheet
rock sponge from Home Depot- I think it was coarse on one side, and medium on
the other. It was stiff enough to use just the edge and corner to remove just
the lumps. Came out pretty good for a first time. My trouble is that I can't work
level- the wing is on it's leading edge against the living room wall. Color
coat goes on Saturday.
Disregard all my previous comments on weight. I found a piece of paper from
where I weighed the plane without wings, and compared it to the weight with them.
The left wheel only gained 3 pounds after the wing was put on, and the right
gained 66 pounds. The tail gained 16. I guess the back yard is not as level
as it looked. When the snow goes away, I will do it again by weighing on a leveled
board. The wife is going to get a new bathroom scale for her birthday.
Can anyone give me any info on the Kolb KXP? That is what the wings are off
of, and they are easily adaptable to my airframe. I tried the web, and came up
dry. Kolb told me that the easy way was to mount them 2 1/2" rearward, and tweak
the hardware. Weight and balance would not be critical. What did the KXP
weigh?
Bill Sullivan
Old Firestar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KOLB AIRCRAFT" <customersupport(at)tnkolbaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Float & fuel tank info. |
MessageJIM, THE PUDDLE JUMPER FLOATS ARE THE FLOATS WE ARE NOW TESTING
FOR MARK 3,S THE CO IS LOCATED IN CANADA, AS SOON AS WE GET THIS DONE
AND READY FOR SALE AS A BOLT ON KIT, IT WILL BE ON THIS WEB SITE,
THANKS MUCH , LET US KNOW HOW WE CAN HELP IN YOUR PURCHASE, DONNIE.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pook (Infosat)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:30 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Float & fuel tank info.
I am seeking any information you folks may have for MKIII's on floats,
particularly mono floats.
Several years ago there was an outdoor (nature show) which included a
white Kolb MKIII with a mono float arrangement. I think it may have
been about Kodiak Bears in USSR??
I have an original MKIII Sn#035 and live in Yellowknife NT Canada. I
purchased it in the spring of 1991 from Holmer. All the metal work is
done and covering completed on the small parts but I have yet to cover
the wings or cage. It was inspected by our MOT in 1994 and the next
inspection due is pre-flight (my intensions are to register it as a
Canadian "Homebuilt"). I bought it as a single guy, have since got
married, had kids, ect. I'm back "into it" again and hope to make all
the parts become one soon!
Lately I have purchased an (unused) original 912 UL and plan to use
it. I am aware of the issues of the particular engine, however, I would
like to know what is done to increase the fuel capacity? I am toying
with the idea of a wing tank. Between drag strut and main spar of the
innermost 2 ribs would provide 20 gallons or so. Wing folding will
seldom if ever be required. Has anyone ever done this?
Regards, Jim Pook
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "boyd" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
On my Mark III, the draft comes from the tube air coming forward to fill the
vacuum caused by the nose cone. I just wear a hood.
On my mkIII I found some 1 inch foam rubber... cut it to fit the area
behind the seats,,, then used some contact cement and glued on some fabric
to match the color of the paint....
1 it stops the wind
2 it stops a lot of the noise
3 it looks good
4 it keeps things from view if I have anything stored back there.
5 it is removable in a few seconds if needed.
6 it weighs very little compared to the benefits.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firestar project |
Bill, I am going to go out on a limb here but I think you deserve it. You
need to go find a Firefly or do everything you can to make yours like a
Firefly. The problem with trying to modify what you have to comply with part 103
weight is that you are starting with components that are too heavy. From what I
know , even the cage is too heavy to start with.
Your other option is to build the plane the way you want and plan to
register it EAB. But from what I remember of this topic that option may be gone.
I think that this topic got sidelined by a long discussion of how You may or
may not need to be Legal and lost sight of the real issue.
I called TNK this morning and checked the weight of a bare Firefly cage.
28 lbs
If your cage is much more than that you will have a difficult time meeting
103 parameters.
If anyone wants to renew the old "You do not need to be legal thing" I would
suggest they start a new topic and not distract from what Bill is trying to
accomplish.
Good luck with your project Bill and let us know how you make out. There are
several other guys out there in your shoes.
Steve
Firefly 007
In a message dated 2/15/2008 7:39:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
williamtsullivan(at)att.net writes:
Can anyone give me any info on the Kolb KXP? That is what the wings are off
of, and they are easily adaptable to my airframe. I tried the web, and came
up dry. Kolb told me that the easy way was to mount them 2 1/2" rearward, and
tweak the hardware. Weight and balance would not be critical. What did the
KXP weigh?
Bill Sullivan
Old Firestar
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderx5(at)comcast.net |
Sorry guys
This is a test message.
I have been unable to post to this news group (unless this works!)
--
Malcolm Morrison
Schleicher ASW-15
Pietenpol Air Camper
Kolb MKII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
Malcolm
I got it! -- but are you getting a Kolb?
On Feb 15, 2008, at 3:53 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
> Sorry guys
> This is a test message.
> I have been unable to post to this news group (unless this works!)
>
> --
> Malcolm Morrison
> Schleicher ASW-15
> Pietenpol Air Camper
> Kolb MKII
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderx5(at)comcast.net |
I'm having a terrible time posting for some reason. Thanks guys. I have been trying to do an intro post to say that I bought a Kolb MKII back in December, pictures at http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123 but so far I could only get my test message to go through.
Thanks again
--
Malcolm Morrison
Schleicher ASW-15
Pietenpol Air Camper
Kolb MKII
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
>
> Sorry guys
> This is a test message.
> I have been unable to post to this news group (unless this works!)
>
> --
> Malcolm Morrison
> Schleicher ASW-15
> Pietenpol Air Camper
> Kolb MKII
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Winter Sucks !!! |
We've had a lot of snow here in North Idaho this year. Up until last weekend,
it has just been extra work and inconvenience for me. But last Sunday the snow
came off my hangar and crushed the trailer for my Kolb Firefly. Fortunately
the Firefly was safe inside my hangar.
I won't know the full extent of the damage for at least a month when the 13 feet
of snow against it melts, but it's probably totaled. There is a possiblity
that I might be able to cut off the superstructure and put on a new one. We'll
see. I had planned a lot of weekends with this trailer this year.
Weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow (Sat.). I'm going to go flying, so hopefully
that will ease the pain.
--------
Jim
N. Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164309#164309
Attachments:
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http://forums.matronics.com//files/dcp_7002_183.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
> Malcolm Morrison
> Schleicher ASW-15
> Pietenpol Air Camper
> Kolb MKII
Malcolm M:
Got you loud and clear.
Discover a Corvair engine in your stable.
Rev Pike will pee all over himself when he see that.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> |
Malcolm
Just FYI, the cleaner Bon Ami does NOT contain any silicates, and
will not scratch as Comet, Ajax and the others can
and do. And it cleans nicely.
Good luck; you're doing a most nice job!
On Feb 15, 2008, at 5:10 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
> I'm having a terrible time posting for some reason. Thanks guys.
> I have been trying to do an intro post to say that I bought a Kolb
> MKII back in December, pictures at http://home.comcast.net/
> ~mmorrison123 but so far I could only get my test message to go
> through.
>
> Thanks again
>
> --
> Malcolm Morrison
> Schleicher ASW-15
> Pietenpol Air Camper
> Kolb MKII
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
>>
>> Sorry guys
>> This is a test message.
>> I have been unable to post to this news group (unless this works!)
>>
>> --
>> Malcolm Morrison
>> Schleicher ASW-15
>> Pietenpol Air Camper
>> Kolb MKII
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Winter Sucks !!! |
That's a great sculpture and picture! Is this at your home, or from someone else?
--------
Jim
N. Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164320#164320
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Winter Sucks !!! |
Move to Fla
Shot 2 min ago
In a message dated 2/15/2008 6:19:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy"
I agree
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164319#164319
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**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: "MY" 503 muffler mount |
In a message dated 2/15/2008 5:09:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,
planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com writes:
I've been using a Stainless Steel plate for a muffler mount...
Mike,
Your mount looks nice , but I have seen stainless steel brackets,
break and fall of ultralight engines ,where the stainless was mounted directly
to the engine. Stainless work hardens in the presence of vibration. I'm not
saying your bracket will fail, but you should examine the area between the head
bolts on your stainless mount during every preflight for signs of a crack
starting!
Ed FF# 62 ( waiting for another day without the threat of
hail or tornadoes in the forcast)
(In Houston)
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
Terry,
Its going to be stormy here in Houston, so I'm going to the hanger.
In your last post you said you cruise 4800- 5200 rpms. That is about where my
EGTS start getting too hot. I believe you said you were running a 11 G 2
jet needle. One last question. What are your static rpms set at?
Ed FF # 62
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
> Terry,
>
> Its going to be stormy here in Houston, so I'm going to the
> hanger. In your last post you said you cruise 4800- 5200 rpms. That
> is about where my EGTS start getting too hot. I believe you said you
> were running a 11 G 2 jet needle. One last question. What are your
> static rpms set at?
>
>
> Ed FF # 62
>
>
Ed,
My static rpm is about 6400. I swing a wood prop which doesn't allow
for any change. It was about 6200 rpm until I alter the prop tips to
make it quieter ( earlier discussion).
As far a EGT temps, I have the old service manual from Rotax which gives
specific numbers for EGT's and CHT's. You may already have this
information, but if not, here it is.
It states the upper limit values as such: CHT at spark plug seat -
450 F difference between two cylinders - 36 F
EGT
- 1200 F difference between two cylinders 45 F
As I stated before, I run EGT's from 1075 to 1190 depending, sometimes
pushing 1225 at higher altitudes. From what you wrote before on
2-10-08, I think your worrying about nothing. I would like to see what
would happen in your were able to borrow another EGT gauge and see what
goes. Also, our senders are not always accurate. I had a problem with
wiring connectors last year messing up my readings. Another test that
would be interesting would be to borrow another carburetor and see what
happens. Did that for a friend and what a surprise. Someone else
mentioned looking for an air leak. Might want to spray WD 40 around the
carb mounting rubber and manifold while running. Blue smoke will let
you know if you have one.
As my friend and 2 cycle Guru keeps telling me, over and over again,
look at your plugs and cylinder tops and you can tell whats going on.
He tells me not to chase the gauges. Of course you have to learn what
to look for! Also, if you take off your exhaust Y once a year you can
observe what's happening in there and if your rings are free.
Yes, I'm using the 11G2 needle, but that is for mid range performance
and I don't think it will solve your problem. Got that idea from the
list years ago! Can't remember the gentleman's name, sorry! I may
have to change again when the Ethanol "monster" strikes here!!!!
Good luck with your trouble shooting,
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gary aman <gaman(at)att.net> |
The draft can be stopped easily by cutting a7inch circle out of 4in foam rubber
on a band saw,and cutting appropriate slots for the cables and stuffing it in
the tube at the rear end.My highly modified exhaust system on the Mk3w/jabiru
was gassing me until that modification.
----- Original Message ----
From: boyd <by0ung(at)brigham.net>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 8:12:49 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: draft
-->
Kolb-List
message
posted
by:
"boyd"
On
my
Mark
III,
the
draft
comes
from
the
tube
air
coming
forward
to
fill
the
vacuum
caused
by
the
nose
cone.
I
just
wear
a
hood.
On
my
mkIII
I
found
some
1
inch
foam
rubber...
cut
it
to
fit
the
area
behind
the
seats,,,
then
used
some
contact
cement
and
glued
on
some
fabric
to
match
the
color
of
the
paint....
1
it
stops
the
wind
2
it
stops
a
lot
of
the
noise
3
it
looks
good
4
it
keeps
things
from
view
if
I
have
anything
stored
back
there.
5
it
is
removable
in
a
few
seconds
if
needed.
6
it
weighs
very
little
compared
to
the
benefits.
-
The
Kolb-List
Email
Forum
-
Use
the
Matronics
List
Features
Navigator
to
browse
the
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&
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and
much
much
more:
-->
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-
MATRONICS
WEB
FORUMS
-
Same
great
content
also
available
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the
Web
Forums!
-->
http://forums.matronics.com
-
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Contribution
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-
Thank
you
for
your
generous
support!
-Matt
Dralle,
List
Admin.
-->
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
-speaking of the cables in the big pipe; it occurs to me that I
haven't done an inspection yet of the
spot where they intersect. I remember when I hooked them up, trying
to figure a way to avoid
the situation. I consider it to be the weakest point in the MkIII
design even if it never causes any
problem. I did think about using a piece of clear vinyl tubing
sleeve but the cable ends were on by
then and I wanted to go flying.
BB
On 16, Feb 2008, at 4:53 PM, gary aman wrote:
> The draft can be stopped easily by cutting a7inch circle out of 4in
> foam rubber on a band saw,and cutting appropriate slots for the
> cables and stuffing it in the tube at the rear end.My highly
> modified exhaust system on the Mk3w/jabiru was gassing me until
> that modification.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: boyd <by0ung(at)brigham.net>
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 8:12:49 AM
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: draft
>
>
> On my Mark III, the draft comes from the tube air coming forward to
> fill the
> vacuum caused by the nose cone. I just wear a hood.
>
>
> On my mkIII I found some 1 inch foam rubber... cut it to fit the
> area
> behind the seats,,, then used some contact cement and glued on
> some fabric
> to match the color of the paint....
>
> 1 it stops the wind
> 2 it stops a lot of the noise
> 3 it looks good
> 4 it keeps things from view if I have anything stored back there.
> 5 it is removable in a few seconds if needed.
> 6 it weighs very little compared to the - The Kolb-List
> Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to the many
> List utilities such as List Archive Search & Download, 7-Day
> Browse, Chat, Photoshare, and much much --> - MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS Same great content also available via the Web --
> > - List Contribution Web Site Thank you for your
> generous -Matt Dralle, List -->
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Bob B:
Used some plastic brake line tubing. Cut a length and placed on one
cable to act as a chafe guard.
john h
mkIII
I did think about using a piece of clear vinyl tubing sleeve but the
cable ends were on by
then and I wanted to go flying.
BB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
In a message dated 2/16/2008 11:30:42 A.M. Central Standard Time,
tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:
As my friend and 2 cycle Guru keeps telling me, over and over again, look at
your plugs and cylinder tops and you can tell whats going on. He tells me
not to chase the gauges. Of course you have to learn what to look for!
Also, if you take off your exhaust Y once a year you can observe what's happening
in there and if your rings are free.
Terry,
My plugs are white with a hint of tan. I take that to indicate a lean
condition! I think my gauges are somewhat accurate. When the egt gauge reads
1200+ the engine starts running rough. When I pull out the enrichener the
engine smoothes out and the egts drop. When the weather clears I am going to
put back the stock jets and put in a little more pitch. It will be warm weather
here before long and that will make things a little richer also. I did a
de -carbon at 50 hrs and now have 78 hours on it!
Ed
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
Thanks John, I'll slice one side of some tube and slide it up the
cable. -For peace of mind.
BB
On 16, Feb 2008, at 9:55 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> Bob B:
>
> Used some plastic brake line tubing. Cut a length and placed on
> one cable to act as a chafe guard.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
> I did think about using a piece of clear vinyl tubing sleeve but
> the cable ends were on by
> then and I wanted to go flying.
> BB
>
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
After a long wait I finally got to fly my mark III today. What a nice flying airplane!
Its amazing how much different it is in yaw stability vs a challenger
II. My instructor helped me get a lot of little things checked and fixed before
flying. I got down there to his airport (2.25 hour drive) at 10 am and we finally
finished a little after 4pm. He flew it at 4:30 to give it an initial check
and by 5:30 I took my 1st flight in it with him!
The 503 performed very well just as good as his challenger. The Kolb will cruise
nicely at 50 to 55mph at 5 to 5500 rpms..
Indicated stall speed seems a bit higher than i though it would be. Empty weight
on the plane is 425# + me 150+ instructor 165+ fuel 60= 800# gross
Indicated power off stall was around 43 mph clean no flaps. Does that sound about
right? temp today was about 75 degrees elevation 185 MSL
Solo stall speed was about 41mph with a gross of about 700#. The plane has to have
at least 195# in the seat to be within the W/B.
What kind of indicated stall speed are you all getting?
All in all I had a great time! I really like the Kolb! Landing is a tad tricky
with the tail wheel but takeoffs are very easy.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164511#164511
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
Grant I will give you the same advice that Travis at TNK gave me when I was
bending gear legs with great regularity. Learn to wheel land it like a sail
plane and you'll find it's the sweetest landing airplane, tailwheel or no.
Once you get that down you can start learning to three point it if you want,
but you really should learn the wheel landing first. Just my opinion, but I
have the hydraulic press time straightening landing gear legs to back it up.
;-)
Rick
On Feb 16, 2008 10:08 PM, grantr wrote:
>
> After a long wait I finally got to fly my mark III today. What a nice
> flying airplane! Its amazing how much different it is in yaw stability vs a
> challenger II. My instructor helped me get a lot of little things checked
> and fixed before flying. I got down there to his airport (2.25 hour drive)
> at 10 am and we finally finished a little after 4pm. He flew it at 4:30 to
> give it an initial check and by 5:30 I took my 1st flight in it with him!
>
> The 503 performed very well just as good as his challenger. The Kolb will
> cruise nicely at 50 to 55mph at 5 to 5500 rpms..
>
> Indicated stall speed seems a bit higher than i though it would be. Empty
> weight on the plane is 425# + me 150+ instructor 165+ fuel 60= 800# gross
>
> Indicated power off stall was around 43 mph clean no flaps. Does that
> sound about right? temp today was about 75 degrees elevation 185 MSL
>
> Solo stall speed was about 41mph with a gross of about 700#. The plane has
> to have at least 195# in the seat to be within the W/B.
>
> What kind of indicated stall speed are you all getting?
>
>
> All in all I had a great time! I really like the Kolb! Landing is a tad
> tricky with the tail wheel but takeoffs are very easy.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164511#164511
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
Oh, yeah, congrats on the first flight.
Rick
On Feb 16, 2008 10:31 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Grant I will give you the same advice that Travis at TNK gave me when I
> was bending gear legs with great regularity. Learn to wheel land it like a
> sail plane and you'll find it's the sweetest landing airplane, tailwheel or
> no. Once you get that down you can start learning to three point it if you
> want, but you really should learn the wheel landing first. Just my opinion,
> but I have the hydraulic press time straightening landing gear legs to back
> it up. ;-)
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2008 10:08 PM, grantr wrote:
>
> >
> > After a long wait I finally got to fly my mark III today. What a nice
> > flying airplane! Its amazing how much different it is in yaw stability vs a
> > challenger II. My instructor helped me get a lot of little things checked
> > and fixed before flying. I got down there to his airport (2.25 hour
> > drive) at 10 am and we finally finished a little after 4pm. He flew it at
> > 4:30 to give it an initial check and by 5:30 I took my 1st flight in it with
> > him!
> >
> > The 503 performed very well just as good as his challenger. The Kolb
> > will cruise nicely at 50 to 55mph at 5 to 5500 rpms..
> >
> > Indicated stall speed seems a bit higher than i though it would be.
> > Empty weight on the plane is 425# + me 150+ instructor 165+ fuel 60= 800#
> > gross
> >
> > Indicated power off stall was around 43 mph clean no flaps. Does that
> > sound about right? temp today was about 75 degrees elevation 185 MSL
> >
> > Solo stall speed was about 41mph with a gross of about 700#. The plane
> > has to have at least 195# in the seat to be within the W/B.
> >
> > What kind of indicated stall speed are you all getting?
> >
> >
> > All in all I had a great time! I really like the Kolb! Landing is a tad
> > tricky with the tail wheel but takeoffs are very easy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164511#164511
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Grant,
Your experience with the higher stall speeds is normal. Adding VG's to your Kolb
will get that stall speed down to where you want it. I had close to the same
stall speeds with my MK III Xtra, which is much heavier than yours, and putting
VG's on it made a new airplane out of it, not just in stall speed, but the
way it felt throughout the lower speed range. Below is a shot of my panel during
slow, right on the edge of stall, level flight.
I put about 140 VG's on my wings, from the center right out to the very tips of
the wings. Its critical to install them very precisely, but if you do you will
be well rewarded.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164528#164528
Attachments:
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Winter Sucks !!! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
jim wrote:
>
> I won't know the full extent of the damage for at least a month when the 13 feet
of snow against it melts,
>
> .
If the chassis is not damaged, Just get a big rubber hammer, pound the aluminum
sheeting out, and reinforce the structure with some 4X4's [Wink] It would
look funny, well maybe horrible, but you would have something to tow your firefly
in.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164530#164530
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com> |
What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning gear , Your Ajax's
and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation perhaps ?
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New use for ladders. You got to see this! |
this is a takeoff on the French "Flying Flea" or 'pou de ciel' design
from way back, 30's?>>
Hi Russ, interesting set of pics.
There were many Flying fleas built in Europe by rank amateurs. Unfortunately
they had a basic flaw in that you could get into what we now call a `deep
stall, caused by the fixed lower wing blanking out the tail feathers. After
a series of crashes they were banned in theUK although a number flew on the
Continent..This was unfortunate as several crashes were not caused by the
plane at all but by the fact that the `pilots` had never learned to fly. I
remember seeing one flying as a kid. and was very impressed by the large `30
HP` written across the front of the fuselage.
The grandson of the original designer now produces a modern version. It is a
bit of an abortion with an odd control system connected I think by bicycle
chains. Its a biplane and draggy as hell. Nevertheless there are several
which have flown from France to take part in one of our English `fly ins`.
Rather them than me.
Hows the sailing? has Spring arived yet?. I have been in Tenerife in bright
sunshine for the last two weeks. Now back in the UK where the temps last
night were supposed to get down to minus 6 (C) but it is a glorious day,
frosty but nil wind and sunny. I should be flying but I am hopped up on
pain killers waiting to go into hospital tomorrow for an epidural followed I
am afraid by an spinal op if that doesnt work. Fingers crossed. This is all
brought on by the recurrence of a disc injury caused by carrying a glider
wing 35 years ago. Life bites you in the bum, doesn`t it
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
> I put about 140 VG's on my wings, from the center right out to the very
tips of the wings. Its critical to install them very precisely, but if you
do you will be well rewarded.
>
> Mike
Mike B:
Has a critically precise location been established for placement of VG's on
Kolb wings?
Of note when determining stall speeds in Kolbs. Kolbs are notorious for
creating a low pressure area in the cockpit. If your pressure gauges are
not being fed an accurate source of static pressure, indications will be
wrong. It does not take much static pressure error to indicate large
airspeed errors. Most Kolb aircraft I have flown in this situation have air
speed indicators that are at least10 mph fast.
In days past, I flew with a very accurate Winter Venturi Operated Air Speed
Indicator on my Ultrastar and Firestar. This airspeed indicator was
designed for gliders and is extremely accurate, especially at slow speeds,
since we take "static pressure" out of the equation. My US and FS both
stalled at exactly 25 mph indicated. As long as the needle was on 25 mph it
was flying. Let the needle drop a needle width below 25 and they were
mushing.
My mkIII stalls between 30 and 35 mph at altitude. It breaks as the needle
is going through 30 in ground effect.
Why is there such a large difference, 15 to 20 mph, in stall speeds between
these three aircraft and Kolbs being flown today? I build heavy airplanes,
normally flown with a lot of barn dust on top of wings and tail surfaces.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> |
In my experience , scratching the surface
On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>
> What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
> gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
> perhaps ?
>
> David.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
At 08:50 AM 2/17/2008, John Hauck wrote:
>Of note when determining stall speeds in Kolbs. Kolbs are notorious for
>creating a low pressure area in the cockpit. If your pressure gauges are
>not being fed an accurate source of static pressure, indications will be
>wrong. It does not take much static pressure error to indicate large
>airspeed errors. Most Kolb aircraft I have flown in this situation have
>air speed indicators that are at least10 mph fast.
I don't have a "cockpit" on my US, but yes, it stalled at an indicated 35
mph. The previous owner hadn't connected the ASI's static port so it was
just reading the low pressure inside the instrument pod. Every time I
moved my foot the reading changed. Making a proper concentric pitot/static
tube fixed that, though I still have to calibrate it a bit better.
Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed indicators
are? I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but cold weather has
kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.
-Dana
--
Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has enough
power left to destroy America.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Mike,
After I finish the repairs on my FS I, I plan to put VGs on it. You stated that
precise location of the VGs is important. Since all the Kolb wings use the same
airfoil (I've heard) I would think what works for the MkIII will work pretty
well with the rest of the Kolbs. Would you post the details of your VG installation?
Various Kolbers have posted their methods of locating their VGs but,
I'd like to hear about yours too.
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164558#164558
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
Not sure how to wheel land a sail plane but I think my instructors has the landings
down.
The 1st few test flights he was making the approaches at 60mph and on his 2nd landing
the plane landed on the tail wheel 1st which then resulted in a rather
hard main wheel landing! Luckily it didn't bent the gear!
Almost all of or landings were at idle.
Anyway he proceeded to approach a bit faster 65 to 70 and that resulted in feather
like touchdowns on the mains 1st.
I am interested in the VGs as well. Do you have a plan/ drawing to follow to make
these? Did you use aluminum flashing material?
I don't know where the static port is for the asi right now. I think it might be
run under the seats. Where should it be located to correct the airspeed?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164563#164563
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a surface, they
can never be removed, only spread around.
Rick
On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne wrote:
>
> In my experience , scratching the surface
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>
> >
> > What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
> > gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
> > perhaps ?
> >
> > David.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
> Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed
indicators
> are? I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but cold weather has
> kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.
>
> -Dana
Dana:
If you have the bucks, this is the way to go for accurate airspeed
indication. I notice the Winter Venturi ASI range is up to 100 mph. Back
in the early 1980's range topped out at 75 mph. The price is about 5 times
as much too.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
But I DO know
> that Bon Ami doesn't scratch & the others do
Russ:
Maybe you are laboring under the famous Bon Ami commercial, "Hasn't
scratched yet!"
I don't know of any scouring powders, in the Bon Ami league, that do not
scratch.
I believe if you go to an auto parts paint and refinishing house you will
find there are infinite different types and grades of buffing, compounding,
polishing materials. If I was going to work on airplane paint, I would
choose to spend a couple bucks for the correct stuff and leave the Old
Lady's kitchen stuff alone.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
> If you have the bucks, this is the way to go for accurate airspeed
> indication.
http://www.airstuff.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=WINASI-Venturi
Before everybody gets their panties in a wad, here is the url I forgot to
post in my last.
jhauck
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> |
That sounds odd to me Richard, why can't you get it off with say a sponge with
a good rinse of running water?
Ron (AZ,TX)
===========================
---- Richard Girard wrote:
============
Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a surface, they
can never be removed, only spread around.
Rick
On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne wrote:
>
> In my experience , scratching the surface
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>
> >
> > What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
> > gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
> > perhaps ?
> >
> > David.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
kugelair.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
I have had an outside static source on my Kolb from the beginning, so there are
no pressure errors in my system. I have also checked my airspeed readings with
the GPS you see in the picture under no wind conditions, and again everything
is accurate.
Precise placement of the VG's has been determined by the manufacturer, they are
not airplane specific, but its about the same for most general aviation airfoils.
The angles of the VG's into the wind are especially critical as is thier
design. I put them on exactly per the instructions, and the result was an incredible
difference. You can get the VG's at:
http://www.landshorter.com/
There is another Kolb MK III with a 912 based at my field, its "Fat Albert" as
some of you remember that plane. The difference between landing that plane and
landing my plane is huge, the other MK III has to be landed very fast, and with
power to keep it from dropping hard onto the runway much the same as described
by Grant. My MK III can be landed engine off, approaching at 50 MPH and
result in a soft landing. The "Fat Albert" pilot could not believe the difference
between the two MK III's.
In a nutshell, the VG's eliminate the "Kolb Quit" where the plane just drops into
the runway if you get it to slow. I generally do three point landings, but
many times I touch the tailwheel first at less than 30 MPH indicated, no problem,
the mains just come down very nicely. I will take some videos of this and
post them on You Tube.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164578#164578
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
At 08:50 AM 2/17/2008, you wrote:
>
>
> > I put about 140 VG's on my wings, from the center right out to
> the very tips of the wings. Its critical to install them very
> precisely, but if you do you will be well rewarded.
>>
>>Mike
If you are going to use the "Landshorter" VG's
you would naturally follow their instructions on where to put
them, as they seem to have already done the wind tunnel
tests and are selling them to the ultralight community knowing
the type of planes we are putting them on.
Mine are at the suggested 10% to 12% (of the cord of the
wing - including the ailerons) back from the leading
edge = about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.
www.landshorter.com
I went to an "auto paint store" and got the "good" double stick tape.
Automotive Acrylic Plus Attachment Tape
Stick it on the bottoms of the VGs, then cut around the edges with an
exacto knife.
When you putting them on your wings, you just pull the paper off the
botton and stick them down.
Haven lost one yet.
The instructions say put them on 10 to 12% of the wing cord (including the
ailerons)
back from the leading edge. Too far forward and they will slow down the cruise
speed, too far back and they become ineffective.
I put mine about 11% or 6 1/2 inches back from the leading edge as measured
through the middle of the cord of the wing - average cord.
But you better check with the instructions.
The instructions say VG's should be placed about 1% of the wingspan apart.
I have a 27' 9" wing span.
So I put two in each valley and used the 2.75 inch spacing guide
to "kind of space them out" between each rib and false rib etc.
Just a guess, but it seemed to work out OK.
I used the guide they sent with the little "rectangles" cut
out where the VG's go, so I could just stick them in the holes
and move the guide to the next valley.
I just put two on at a time and moved the guide to the next set of ribs.
I used the T-square method like Ben Ransom for the set back
It took more time to put the tape on each VG than it did
to put the VGs on the plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New use for ladders. You got to see this! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
jb92563 wrote:
> Russ, dare I ask how you know what flying ladder sounds like? [Laughing]
>
>
Just wait until one of those ladders fatigues, breaks and results in a crash.
Here in the US the family will probably sue the ladder manufacturer for not putting
a warning on the ladder stating that they are " Not situable for use as
aircraft structure. " and win millions of dollars.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164579#164579
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Mike,
Many of us make our own VGs and would like to know the precise location (and angle)
you used per the manufacturer's instructions. Will you give us this information?
Of course, you are under no obligation to do so but, if I don't ask, I
won't know. How about it?
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164580#164580
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Sure Tom,
The angle into the wind is 15 degrees " Nose In " between each rib valley. Spacing is 2 1/2 inches all across the wing, but centered in each rib valley. They are placed 10 % of the chord back from the leading edge of the wing. I am flying at work right now, but if you like I will give you the measurements of the VG's when I get home. BTW, the VG's at www.landshorter.com are cheap, only 100 dollars per 100, and they are much nicer looking and stronger than I could ever make them. Attached is a picture of the VG's on my plane, I used about 140 of them.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164582#164582
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, Possum. Very helpful.
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164584#164584
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
One Correction,
Possums is correct about the spacing being 10 % - 12 % of the wing cord back from
the leading edge, I put them right in the middle at 11 %. Also, remember
not to measure the curved part of the wing, that distance is straight back from
the leading edge not measuring along the curve of the wing. I used a carpenters
L up against the leading edge of the wing, with the side of the L parallel
with the bottom of the wing to measure this distance. This way I could measure
accurately how far back on the top of the wing without the curve in the airfoil
throwing my measurement off.
On the MK III the ribs are spaced at 5 inches apart, so 2 1/2 inches allows you
to center them in the valleys and have constant spacing along the entire wing.
You might have to vary the spacing just a hair between VG's from one valley
to the next to get them in the middle each valley, but they recommend that each
"Pair" be centered in each valley.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164586#164586
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "boyd" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
Thanks John, I'll slice one side of some tube and slide it up the cable.
-For peace of mind.
BB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Since the cable ends are already in place Find two 1 inch pieces of
=BD
inch pex tubing. Silicone together, wrap with safety wire, when you
glue
them together hold them at the correct crossing angle. When slid onto
the
cables they will find there own location where the cables cross. The
cables
should never bind, as the fitting is not anchored to either cable.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "boyd" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
The draft can be stopped easily by cutting a7inch circle out of 4in foam
rubber on a band saw,and cutting appropriate slots for the cables and
stuffing it in the tube at the rear end.My highly modified exhaust system on
the Mk3w/jabiru was gassing me until that modification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I considered the foam in the rear,,,,, but was concerned about what would
happen to the cables if the foam got moisture in it.. So I cut a piece of
covering fabric and glued it in the end of the tail boom. cut slits in it
to pass the cable through.. the foam behind my head eliminated a lot of
noise,,, that addition created comments like " your radio has never sounded
better" besides that I can hear better.
Boyd.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Hoyt <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com> |
This is another test message. #3
I have yet to be able to reply to the list. Maybe this will work.
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/16/2008 11:30:42 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:
>
>
> As my friend and 2 cycle Guru keeps telling me, over and over
> again, look at your plugs and cylinder tops and you can tell whats
> going on. He tells me not to chase the gauges. Of course you
> have to learn what to look for! Also, if you take off your
> exhaust Y once a year you can observe what's happening in there
> and if your rings are free.
>
> Terry,
>
> My plugs are white with a hint of tan. I take that to indicate a
> lean condition! I think my gauges are somewhat accurate. When the egt
> gauge reads 1200+ the engine starts running rough. When I pull out the
> enrichener the engine smoothes out and the egts drop. When the
> weather clears I am going to put back the stock jets and put in a
> little more pitch. It will be warm weather here before long and that
> will make things a little richer also. I did a de -carbon at 50 hrs
> and now have 78 hours on it!
>
> Ed
Ed,
Sounds like you are lean, now the question is why? Using the enrichener
is a good way of telling that, should have mentioned that earlier.
Getting back to stock is a good starting point. Do that before changing
pitch, one thing at a time. Good luck solving the problem. Still have
a problem with the decarbon thing at 50 hr.s. Who did the work and what
gaskets were used to re-assemble?
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Hoyt <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com> |
Yup! this did it.
Ron
Ron Hoyt wrote:
> This is another test message. #3
> I have yet to be able to reply to the list. Maybe this will work.
>
> Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
In the 80s, before the widespread use of factory clearcoat there was
a lot of that silicone
stuff sold to make your old car look shiny. Car painters hated it.
Very tough to get off and
unless you did completely the new paint would peel right off in a
couple of weeks.
Sanding it would just push it deeper. After one bad experience I now
scrub any car
I want to paint with an extremely harsh HVAC coil cleaner rated
detergent before any
work starts. Use gloves.
BB
On 17, Feb 2008, at 11:14 AM, Ron wrote:
>
> That sounds odd to me Richard, why can't you get it off with say a
> sponge with a good rinse of running water?
>
> Ron (AZ,TX)
>
> ===========================
>
> ---- Richard Girard wrote:
>
> ============
> Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a
> surface, they
> can never be removed, only spread around.
>
> Rick
>
> On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne wrote:
>
>>
>> In my experience , scratching the surface
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
>>> gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
>>> perhaps ?
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
TK wrote:
> DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
>> In a message dated 2/16/2008 11:30:42 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>> tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:
>>
>>
>> As my friend and 2 cycle Guru keeps telling me, over and over
>> again, look at your plugs and cylinder tops and you can tell
>> whats going on. He tells me not to chase the gauges. Of course
>> you have to learn what to look for! Also, if you take off your
>> exhaust Y once a year you can observe what's happening in there
>> and if your rings are free.
>>
>> Terry,
>>
>> My plugs are white with a hint of tan. I take that to indicate a
>> lean condition! I think my gauges are somewhat accurate. When the
>> egt gauge reads 1200+ the engine starts running rough. When I pull
>> out the enrichener the engine smoothes out and the egts drop. When
>> the weather clears I am going to put back the stock jets and put in a
>> little more pitch. It will be warm weather here before long and that
>> will make things a little richer also. I did a de -carbon at 50 hrs
>> and now have 78 hours on it!
>>
>> Ed
>
> Ed,
>
> Sounds like you are lean, now the question is why? Using the
> enrichener is a good way of telling that, should have mentioned that
> earlier. Getting back to stock is a good starting point. Do that
> before changing pitch, one thing at a time. Good luck solving the
> problem. Still have a problem with the decarbon thing at 50 hr.s.
> Who did the work and what gaskets were used to re-assemble?
>
> Terry - FireFly #95
Ed,
One more thought. Check your fuel bowl float level. If it is off it
can cause a lean fuel situation in the mid range.
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
On Feb 17, 2008, at 8:50 AM, John Hauck wrote:
> normally flown with a lot of barn dust on top of wings and tail
> surfaces.
Ah, but your barn dust must be strategically and critically precise
located barn dust. < g >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
Grant
Congratulations on your first flight.
You are getting alot of information from some low time Kolb pilots and some
of it is good. I'm also a low time Kolb pilot in comparison to John H and
others. The information I would like to give you is Kolbs fly just fine as
they were designed.
VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe. In a
recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.
John H correctly made a point that airspeed indicators in Kolbs can be
inaccurate and at higher angles of attack they get even more so.
The term I hear "kolb quit" is plain and simple a stall no matter how much
these newbies want to believe otherwise. Our airplanes slow down very
quickly when you flair for landing. This is a good thing but if your not
ready for it, it will bite you. There are at least three ways to deal with
it. Land faster, land with power, and/or flair closer to the ground. VGs
will help some but it still takes airspeed to provide lift. Using flaps
makes it slow down quicker so don't use them till you are proficient in your
airplane.
I almost always do three point landings and some times tail wheel first and
usually grease it in. No I don't have VGs. Three point landings are easer
for me and I land slower so....
As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!
>
> I have had an outside static source on my Kolb from the beginning, so
> there are no pressure errors in my system. I have also checked my
> airspeed readings with the GPS you see in the picture under no wind
> conditions, and again everything is accurate.
>
> Precise placement of the VG's has been determined by the manufacturer,
> they are not airplane specific, but its about the same for most general
> aviation airfoils. The angles of the VG's into the wind are especially
> critical as is thier design. I put them on exactly per the instructions,
> and the result was an incredible difference. You can get the VG's at:
>
> http://www.landshorter.com/
>
> There is another Kolb MK III with a 912 based at my field, its "Fat
> Albert" as some of you remember that plane. The difference between
> landing that plane and landing my plane is huge, the other MK III has to
> be landed very fast, and with power to keep it from dropping hard onto the
> runway much the same as described by Grant. My MK III can be landed
> engine off, approaching at 50 MPH and result in a soft landing. The "Fat
> Albert" pilot could not believe the difference between the two MK III's.
>
> In a nutshell, the VG's eliminate the "Kolb Quit" where the plane just
> drops into the runway if you get it to slow. I generally do three point
> landings, but many times I touch the tailwheel first at less than 30 MPH
> indicated, no problem, the mains just come down very nicely. I will take
> some videos of this and post them on You Tube.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164578#164578
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
Terry,
I did a de carbon at 50 hrs. because of Rotax's recommendation. I did
the work myself and used all genuine Rotax gaskets. It was pretty straight
forward., but , getting all the tin back on and the needle bearings back was a
little tricky. This engine has had high egts before and after the de carbon.
During the warm spring and summer months it seems to stay below 1200*
egts. That was before 10% alcohol was forced on us. I am going to try the WD-40
Test you mentioned, next time I get to the hangar.
Ed FF # 62
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
In a message dated 2/17/2008 1:38:49 P.M. Central Standard Time,
tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:
Ed,
One more thought. Check your fuel bowl float level. If it is off it can
cause a lean fuel situation in the mid range.
Terry - FireFly #95
Terry,
I checked the fuel level in the carb bowl and measured
and it was right at 1/2 inch below the bowl rim!
Ed FF#62
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New use for ladders. You got to see this! |
I've worked with nutty carpenters who get hugely PO'ed at things --
On Feb 17, 2008, at 11:32 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>
>
> jb92563 wrote:
>> Russ, dare I ask how you know what flying ladder sounds like?
>> [Laughing]
>>
>>
>
>
> Just wait until one of those ladders fatigues, breaks and results
> in a crash. Here in the US the family will probably sue the ladder
> manufacturer for not putting a warning on the ladder stating that
> they are " Not situable for use as aircraft structure. " and win
> millions of dollars.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164579#164579
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> |
Praps I should have said - doesn't scratch AS MUCH as the others do
But I've used it on a lot more boats than aircraft --
but compounding is another thing entirely.
On Feb 17, 2008, at 10:43 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> But I DO know
>> that Bon Ami doesn't scratch & the others do
>
>
> Russ:
>
> Maybe you are laboring under the famous Bon Ami commercial, "Hasn't
> scratched yet!"
>
> I don't know of any scouring powders, in the Bon Ami league, that
> do not scratch.
>
> I believe if you go to an auto parts paint and refinishing house
> you will find there are infinite different types and grades of
> buffing, compounding, polishing materials. If I was going to work
> on airplane paint, I would choose to spend a couple bucks for the
> correct stuff and leave the Old Lady's kitchen stuff alone.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
> Ah, but your barn dust must be strategically and critically precise
> located barn dust. < g >
Gene:
I tried a Kolb Archive search, but turned up nada on "strategically and
critically precise located barn dust".
If I hang out long enough, somebody will adddress this problem.
I flew down to Lucedale, MS, last week, with a load of barn dust, bug crap,
and cow manure. Did 380 sm in 4.2 hours. Believe if I cleaned her up I
could have done a lot better. Every time I wash my 1992 Dodge/Cummins it
seems to run twice as good. Maybe I should try that with the mkIII.
Reference VG's: I flew a FSII with VG's last October in SE Oregon. After
we got her tuned and tightened up, the major difference I could determine
from a clean wing and VG wing was landing. I think my Bassett Hound Ernie
could grease that FSII on with VG's. Landings seemed to be a no brainer.
Low time pilots should have no problem greasing them on.
Other than landings, I couldn't find any other improvement over the clean
wing. My test was not all inclusive. I did not do top speed WOT flight.
Did a lot of stalls in different configurations, but no spins.
For my money, I'll continue to fly my Kolbs clean, as I have for a long
time. Should I get to the point I can no longer make a satisfactory landing
with a clean wing, then I'll probably quit flying.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
On Feb 17, 2008, at 5:07 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> I flew down to Lucedale, MS, last week, with a load of barn dust,
> bug crap, and cow manure. Did 380 sm in 4.2 hours. Believe if I
> cleaned her up I could have done a lot better. Every time I wash my
> 1992 Dodge/Cummins it seems to run twice as good. Maybe I should
> try that with the mkIII.
John,
Just curious, what was the problem with the original gears that were
replaced?
As for a true apples to apples VG test we need to have this settled
once and for all by having a well seasoned kolb pilot try slow flight
to stall with VG's on just one wing. < g >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
I liked Gene's idea of VG's on one wing. That would indeed be a control test.
Cheap, too. I wouldn't volunteer even if the Firestar was flying, as I couldn't
tell the difference with my limited experience. I have read up on them, but
never saw anyone try it on one wing only. I think it would be safe enough, but
tricky doing a normal stall landing.
Bill
FS?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Bourne <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
In all serious-ness, I have to say, "Don't Do It." Someone just might
get the idea to give it a whirl and actually try putting vg's on one
wing without thinking it thru. This is only my personal reasoning, but
I'd think that anything that might alter the flying characteristics of a
wing could possibly cause a wing to stall before the other one and
result in a low altitude spin. Could well be deadly. Lar.
william sullivan wrote:
> I liked Gene's idea of VG's on one wing. That would indeed be a
> control test. Cheap, too. I wouldn't volunteer even if the Firestar
> was flying, as I couldn't tell the difference with my limited
> experience. I have read up on them, but never saw anyone try it on one
> wing only. I think it would be safe enough, but tricky doing a normal
> stall landing.
> Bill
> FS?
> *
>
>
> *
--
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
Building Kolb Mk III
"Vamoose"
www.gogittum.com
www.gogittum.com/blog
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
> Just curious, what was the problem with the original gears that were
> replaced?
Gene Z:
There were some isolated cases of gear teeth shedding some metal fragments
that could eventually cause a catastrophic failure if those fragements got
into the gears.
I believe Rotax took a big bracket on each side the failures and mine was
included in that bunch.
My old gears, the gear box, and the crankshaft looked great, just like it
should have.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
At 04:09 PM 2/17/2008, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
>...This engine has had high egts before and after the de carbon. During
>the warm spring and summer months it seems to stay below 1200* egts.
If you're not rejetting it according to the seasons, this makes sense...
the less dense air in the warm months will make the engine run richer, and
vice versa.
-Dana
--
"The difference between death and taxes is death doesn't get worse every
time Congress meets." -- Will Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Beauford:
I have never said VG's do not work.
Simply have never found a requirement for them on my airplanes.
I can imagine those manufacturers had a requirement for them long before
they started sticking.
john h
mkIII
...if VG's didn't work...seriously doubt that Boeing, Airbus,
Lockheed, et.al. would
have gleefully festooned the wing and tail airfoils of their hardware
with them for
the past three or four decades as a mere science experiment or a
joke... whaddya think?
..just a thought...
Idle Beauford
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Temps |
DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:
> Terry,
>
> I did a de carbon at 50 hrs. because of Rotax's recommendation. I
> did the work myself and used all genuine Rotax gaskets. It was
> pretty straight forward., but , getting all the tin back on and the
> needle bearings back was a little tricky. This engine has had high
> egts before and after the de carbon. During the warm spring and
> summer months it seems to stay below 1200* egts. That was before 10%
> alcohol was forced on us. I am going to try the WD-40 Test you
> mentioned, next time I get to the hangar.
>
>
>
> Ed FF # 62
Ed,
That's why I worry about when we here have to bite the bullet of using
ethanol also. It will probably change my setup also. What a scam it's
turning out to be!
Terry - Firefly #95
P's. Never decarboned, don't intend to and don't need to. The original
users of Rotax engines, the snowmobile er's and jet skiers never did it
and they beat the crap out of their machines! Choose your oil wisely!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
At 09:50 AM 2/17/2008, you wrote:
>
>Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed
>indicators are? I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but
>cold weather has kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.
>
>-Dana
I've got one on mine - it's more accurate than the one inside at low speeds.
Especially with the windshield off, but I think even with the windshield on
the Hall ASI is the most consistent.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | herb <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
I am reminded of the old Kolb Video, with Dennis Souder flying three
models.. His slow flight in the mark 111 was quite impressive to me..
full flaps... and some power...
I think that sort of maneuverability is what sold a lot of us on
Kolbs in the first place... gotta be light however.. Mine was very
stock and weighed 490 as I recall..I haven't landed any plane that
well since... Never did get around to using the second notch of flaps.. Herb
At 10:24 AM 2/17/2008, you wrote:
>
>I have had an outside static source on my Kolb from the beginning,
>so there are no pressure errors in my system. I have also checked
>my airspeed readings with the GPS you see in the picture under no
>wind conditions, and again everything is accurate.
>
>Precise placement of the VG's has been determined by the
>manufacturer, they are not airplane specific, but its about the same
>for most general aviation airfoils. The angles of the VG's into the
>wind are especially critical as is thier design. I put them on
>exactly per the instructions, and the result was an incredible
>difference. You can get the VG's at:
>
>http://www.landshorter.com/
>
>There is another Kolb MK III with a 912 based at my field, its "Fat
>Albert" as some of you remember that plane. The difference between
>landing that plane and landing my plane is huge, the other MK III
>has to be landed very fast, and with power to keep it from dropping
>hard onto the runway much the same as described by Grant. My MK
>III can be landed engine off, approaching at 50 MPH and result in a
>soft landing. The "Fat Albert" pilot could not believe the
>difference between the two MK III's.
>
>In a nutshell, the VG's eliminate the "Kolb Quit" where the plane
>just drops into the runway if you get it to slow. I generally do
>three point landings, but many times I touch the tailwheel first at
>less than 30 MPH indicated, no problem, the mains just come down
>very nicely. I will take some videos of this and post them on You Tube.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
>you could have !!!
>
>Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164578#164578
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
Here is a link to the only hall ASI that I could find. Pretty cheap.
i have a anenometer
http://www.willswing.com/prod2.asp?theClass=inst&theModel=hall
I have one of these hand held anemometers and it is very accurate. I tested it
in the car by sticking it out the window and it was exact to the speedometer.
Also walking in calm air it will read around 3mph.
I wanted to take it up in the plane but I don't think it would be a good idea to
open the door on the MK III! It seems like it would blow up the way it swings
up to open.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Lacrosse-Handheld-Anemometer-Wind-Speed-Wind-Chill_W0QQitemZ160207622772QQihZ006QQcategoryZ48624QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164732#164732
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 2/17/2008 6:50:57 P.M. Central Standard Time,
d-m-hague(at)comcast.net writes:
Can't see spending that much on an ASI... I'm not worried about supreme
accuracy; I just want to get the best accuracy out of what I already have.
-Dana
I went through all kinds of dances to get my brand new ASI to
read right! It was probably off by 20 mph! I gave in and spent the bucks to
get a Winter ASI like John H. said. I installed it and that was it. It has
been accurate from day one! I consider it money well spent !
Ed FF # 62
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
When I recieved the Firestar, the former owner said that the ASI was off by about
20mph. While I was cleaning out the clutter from inside, I found a clear plastic
tube about a foot long. Turned out that it was the static air tube. The
elbow had broken off just inside the nose, and the tube fell off the back of the
gauge.
Bill Sullivan
FS?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> |
Silicone Ok I get it. I thought he meant silicate as in sand.
Ron (TXAZ)
================================
---- robert bean wrote:
============
In the 80s, before the widespread use of factory clearcoat there was
a lot of that silicone
stuff sold to make your old car look shiny. Car painters hated it.
Very tough to get off and
unless you did completely the new paint would peel right off in a
couple of weeks.
Sanding it would just push it deeper. After one bad experience I now
scrub any car
I want to paint with an extremely harsh HVAC coil cleaner rated
detergent before any
work starts. Use gloves.
BB
On 17, Feb 2008, at 11:14 AM, Ron wrote:
>
> That sounds odd to me Richard, why can't you get it off with say a
> sponge with a good rinse of running water?
>
> Ron (AZ,TX)
>
> ===========================
>
> ---- Richard Girard wrote:
>
> ============
> Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a
> surface, they
> can never be removed, only spread around.
>
> Rick
>
> On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne wrote:
>
>>
>> In my experience , scratching the surface
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
>>> gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
>>> perhaps ?
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
--
kugelair.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Grant
>
> VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe. In a
> recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.
>
The pilot flying with the VG's was distracted, and did not fly the plane well,
which he admitted here on the list. You statement here is nothing short of misleading
and bordering on dishonest. Also, not all VG's installations are equal.
VG's made out of alumimum with the " That looks about right" technique might
not work as well. Placement and angles are VERY critical, if VG's were not
installed in a very precise and accurate manner, their effects will be drastically
reduced.
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> John H correctly made a point that airspeed indicators in Kolbs can be
> inaccurate and at higher angles of attack they get even more so.
>
>
Did you not read my post, I have a separate static source and back up the airspeed
with GPS as can be seen in my picture, again your statement is nothing short
of misrepresenting the facts to make your point. Look at the attached picture
and try to explain the GPS speed as instrument error.
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> The term I hear "kolb quit" is plain and simple a stall no matter how much
> these newbies want to believe otherwise.
> No I don't have VGs. Three point landings are easer
> for me and I land slower so....
>
> As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
>
> ---
Kolb quit is a very real fact, and it bends a lot of gear on landing. VG's practically
eliminate this bad behavior. I dont care what theory may or not apply,
I would rather have my Kolb land in a docile manner, and be forgiving of less
than perfect technique. Pilots are human, from time to time you will have
a bad landing, I dont want an airplane that will bite me and be easily damaged
on a less than perfect landing.
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.
>
>
There is a huge amount of evidence and testimonials on the positive effect VG's
here on the list. I have not always had VG's, I have flown my plane with and
without them, and I am giving my results backed up with pictures and numbers.
I do not sell VG's, and I have no reason to mislead anyone here. I am posting
information on VG's here because some Kolbers took the trouble to tell me
about the benefits of VG's, so im passing it along to others that can benefit
also.
Your catchy little one liner is nothing more than an attempt to distract readers
from the facts here. All Rick has here is some very biased opinions, and has
done nothing short of mislead and misrepresent the facts to make his point.
Look at the pictures, look at the facts, and then make your choice.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164760#164760
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aerialultralightkolbmikeperformancefloridahomestead07_09_2007_009_633.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
VG's on one wing would be VERY DANGEROUS. I would never do a test like that.
You could easily find yourself in an uncontrollable and unrecoverable spin. You
could also find yourself in an uncontrollable roll even at normal speed as
one wing could have significantly more lift than the other at a given angle of
attack.
If you want to test VG's, first fly your plane without VG's, and then put them
on and record all your numbers again. If you think you may not want the VG's
permanently, put them on with double sided 3M automobile trim tape ( Not the cheap
stuff ) that is what Possums and I did. That way you can get the VG's off
if you do not like them. My results with putting VG's on were so good, I will
never again fly my Kolb without them. Of the many people that have put VG's
on their Kolbs, I have never heard of anyone not liking them and taking them
off, that in itself should tell you something.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164761#164761
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe. In a
recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.>>
Hi Rick,
on this side of the pond the engineering department of the PFA carried out
very stringent tests and the answer as far as stall speed is concerned is
`They work`. The proof is that the Xtra would not make the stalling speed
required to qualify as a `microlight` without the VG`s. With the VG`s
fitted it dropped the stalling speed by enough to enable the Xtra to make
the grade.
Any further so called benefits in cruise and handling are pretty sibjective
I think but the lowering of the stall speed is unquestionable. Here you
will not get a Certificate to Fly without the VG`s fitted.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
On Feb 17, 2008, at 11:50 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> If anyone out there does decide to try the VG's on one wing test,
> may I suggest you read the book, "Anatomy of a Spin" by John Lowery
> first.
>
> Rick
>>>As for a true apples to apples VG test we need to have this
settled once and for all by having a well seasoned kolb pilot try
slow flight to stall with VG's on just one wing. < g > <<<
Hey guys,
Please notice what I said,
I said ,,,,,, a "well seasoned " ,,,, kolb pilot ,,,,, and please also
notice WHO I wrote that too ; ^) ,,,,,, and please notice the ,,,,, <
g >.
I'm sure the degree of my seriousness in that idea was not lost on
John, and If anybody were actually able to pull it off I'm sure it
would be none other than John.
So if you are NOT John Hauck ,,,,,,, please DO NOT ever try my
DANGEROUS test suggestion.
Eugene Zimmerman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
> So if you are NOT John Hauck ,,,,,,, please DO NOT ever try my
> DANGEROUS test suggestion.
>
>
> Eugene Zimmerman
Gene Z:
I relinquished my "test pilot" duties some time back.
Nothing like flying something tried and true. The old mkIII is like putting
on an old pair of work boots.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
> Your catchy little one liner is nothing more than an attempt to distract
readers from the facts here. All Rick has here is some very biased
opinions, and has done nothing short of mislead and misrepresent the facts
to make his point. Look at the pictures, look at the facts, and then make
your choice.
>
> Mike Bigelow
Mike B:
Rick Neilsen was on the ground at London observing the flyoff between
Richard Pike and me. His comments are not biased opinions, and he is not
trying to mislead and misrepresent the facts to make his point.
I flew as slow as Rev Pike with a mkIII that was "probably" much heavier
than his mkIII equipped with VG's. Was Richard distracted? Hell, I don't
know, or do I understand why that would have anything to do with his minimum
flight speed. The wings are going to fly until they quit, whether you are
having a good day or bad.
I am extremely happy you have a static source for your airspeed indicator.
All ASI's have them, although most are not calibrated. If they are not
calibrated, they are not very accurate. Takes very little static pressure
error to kick one +10 or -10 mph.
Your photo is very impressive. If, in fact, your mkIIIx will fly 25 mph
straight and level, I congratulate you, because it is probably the only one
in existence that will fly that slow.
Again, I am not saying VG's do not work. I am saying whatever improvement
there is is not justification for me to install them on my airplane.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
Mike
I will only respond this once on this issue only because of your continued
inference about the flying qualities of a Kolb. "Kolb Quit" is a "stall"
caused by low speed landings in a very low mass airplane. This is what makes
our Kolbs superior STOL airplanes. If one follows common GA pilot training
with the use of flaps and no power in landing you are right Kolbs take a
high skill level to keep from bending gear. If we change our technique by
add some speed and power while landing, Kolbs become a very forgiving
airplanes to land correctly. Granted it is best to land without having to
depend on power and maybe slower speeds but slowly progress to that stage as
you get more proficient in your Kolb.
As for the VG thing. At some point I will put them on my plane. I think they
help and as I get older I might need the help but I'm still concerned about
them lowering my cruise speeds. With that said the benefits are considerably
over stated on this list. A ham fisted pilot will still bend his landing
gear or worse even with VGs. Mike keeps saying I ignore the "facts". Most of
us are aware that there is a considerable inaccuracy in airspeed indicators
in different airplanes especially between installations and measurement
types. To show a photo of a ASI and call it "fact" is a bit of a stretch. I
REALLY REALLY don't want to start another VG battle again on the list but. I
was there at the VG fly off and saw the drastic differences between the two
planes and pilots. There would have been 100% agreement between every one
there except maybe John H that he was going to get his butt kicked big time
before the fly off. It didn't happen, it was a draw.Yes I heard ALL of the
excuses but if VGs help as much as you guys say is "fact" it still would
have been a butt kicking. One final comment that is truly quantifiable is
that John's non VG airplane weighed almost 25% more!!!
OK. Mike I know you, like my wife, will have to have the last word so have
at it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 1:56 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> Grant
>>
>> VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe.
>> In a
>> recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.
>>
>
>
> The pilot flying with the VG's was distracted, and did not fly the plane
> well, which he admitted here on the list. You statement here is nothing
> short of misleading and bordering on dishonest. Also, not all VG's
> installations are equal. VG's made out of alumimum with the " That looks
> about right" technique might not work as well. Placement and angles are
> VERY critical, if VG's were not installed in a very precise and accurate
> manner, their effects will be drastically reduced.
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> John H correctly made a point that airspeed indicators in Kolbs can be
>> inaccurate and at higher angles of attack they get even more so.
>>
>>
>
>
> Did you not read my post, I have a separate static source and back up the
> airspeed with GPS as can be seen in my picture, again your statement is
> nothing short of misrepresenting the facts to make your point. Look at
> the attached picture and try to explain the GPS speed as instrument error.
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> The term I hear "kolb quit" is plain and simple a stall no matter how
>> much
>> these newbies want to believe otherwise.
>> No I don't have VGs. Three point landings are easer
>> for me and I land slower so....
>>
>> As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.
>>
>> Rick Neilsen
>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>
>>
>> ---
>
>
> Kolb quit is a very real fact, and it bends a lot of gear on landing.
> VG's practically eliminate this bad behavior. I dont care what theory
> may or not apply, I would rather have my Kolb land in a docile manner, and
> be forgiving of less than perfect technique. Pilots are human, from time
> to time you will have a bad landing, I dont want an airplane that will
> bite me and be easily damaged on a less than perfect landing.
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.
>>
>>
>
>
> There is a huge amount of evidence and testimonials on the positive effect
> VG's here on the list. I have not always had VG's, I have flown my plane
> with and without them, and I am giving my results backed up with pictures
> and numbers. I do not sell VG's, and I have no reason to mislead anyone
> here. I am posting information on VG's here because some Kolbers took the
> trouble to tell me about the benefits of VG's, so im passing it along to
> others that can benefit also.
>
> Your catchy little one liner is nothing more than an attempt to distract
> readers from the facts here. All Rick has here is some very biased
> opinions, and has done nothing short of mislead and misrepresent the facts
> to make his point. Look at the pictures, look at the facts, and then make
> your choice.
>
> Mike Bigelow
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164760#164760
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aerialultralightkolbmikeperformancefloridahomestead07_09_2007_009_633.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally flying my MK III!!! |
| From: | "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush(at)tema.net> |
Sorry.
Two different airplanes (even though both are Kolbs) with two different pilots.
The VG fly off was interesting but hardly a definitive determination about the
effectiveness of V.G.s.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164837#164837
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | VG's : Vortex Generators Testing, Results, and Reports |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
It is nothing short of incredible to me that any rational, intelligent individual
would ignore 50 + years of scientific testing and huge number of pilot reports
on the benefits of VG's on their Kolbs, based on one test that one of the
pilots very clearly stated did not go well.
The only thing this tells me is that some individuals have stated their beliefs
publicly on the list, and are now so unwilling to admit that they have been wrong,
that they ignore mountains of evidence and and cling to one test that was
flown very poorly. See report here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=32973&highlight=vgs
To give bad and incorrect advice here on the list just because a couple of you
have so thoroughly dug yourselves into a position and now need to save face is
a disservice to everyone that reads this list. Here on the Kolb list we have
way to many guys that are so interested in saving face, or backing up their friends
in their little " clique ", that they forget about or ignore the truth.
Information we publish here on the list not about WHO is right, it is about WHAT
is right. Many people read this list to make their airplanes safer and more
enjoyable, we owe it to them to post good and accurate information.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164865#164865
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kmet" <jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's : Vortex Generators Testing, Results, and Reports |
Allright, enough! I can`t bite my tongue anymore! If it is so awfull the way
we conduct ourselves, are`nt you ashamed to be a part of this list? If I
felt the way you did, I would unsubscribe this list & join another! This is
getting "OLD" even for us lurkers. Thank God & Bill Gates for the delete
button!! I appreciate both opinions & facts, & I believe rational people
have enough sense to filter out works for them & what doesn`t.. Thanks to
those who have provided input to my questions & then left it alone. Maybe
I`ll rejoin This forum at some later date, but for now, addios! Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:46 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: VG's : Vortex Generators Testing, Results, and Reports
>
> It is nothing short of incredible to me that any rational, intelligent
> individual would ignore 50 + years of scientific testing and huge number
> of pilot reports on the benefits of VG's on their Kolbs, based on one
> test that one of the pilots very clearly stated did not go well.
>
> The only thing this tells me is that some individuals have stated their
> beliefs publicly on the list, and are now so unwilling to admit that they
> have been wrong, that they ignore mountains of evidence and and cling to
> one test that was flown very poorly. See report here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=32973&highlight=vgs
>
> To give bad and incorrect advice here on the list just because a couple of
> you have so thoroughly dug yourselves into a position and now need to save
> face is a disservice to everyone that reads this list. Here on the Kolb
> list we have way to many guys that are so interested in saving face, or
> backing up their friends in their little " clique ", that they forget
> about or ignore the truth.
>
> Information we publish here on the list not about WHO is right, it is
> about WHAT is right. Many people read this list to make their airplanes
> safer and more enjoyable, we owe it to them to post good and accurate
> information.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164865#164865
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
Mike,
I didn't solo I just flew it with the instructor. I have soloed a Cessna 152 back
in 1999 so its been a while 9 years since I flew a plane.
The VG debate is just one of those forum things. Every forum I am a member of gets
into heated debates over little things that are pointless to argue over.
I guess we get bore sometimes and get a Little carried away. :D
So y'all don't get your panties in a wad over VGs! [Laughing]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164887#164887
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Rick G:
Pretty simple solution to Kolb QUIT.
Doesn't require a text book to understand.
Learn to fly the airplane.
Every Kolb model I have flown, over the years, lands the same way, with
or without power, with or without flaps.
Learn to stall the airplane on the ground or a couple inches above the
ground.
Or.............fly the airplane to the ground, stick it there, and stop
it.
Most important is learn to fly it.
john h
mkIII
So, draw your own conclusions, do some more extensive research, or
look around at the planes on the ramp the next time you go out to fly.
It's not magic why the Kolb drops, but that's just my opinion.
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's : Vortex Generators Testing, Results, and Reports |
JetPilot wrote:
>
> It is nothing short of incredible to me that any rational, intelligent individual
would ignore 50 + years of scientific testing and huge number of pilot reports
on the benefits of VG's on their Kolbs, based on one test that one of the
pilots very clearly stated did not go well.
>
> The only thing this tells me is that some individuals have stated their beliefs
publicly on the list, and are now so unwilling to admit that they have been
wrong, that they ignore mountains of evidence and and cling to one test that
was flown very poorly. See report here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=32973&highlight=vgs
>
> To give bad and incorrect advice here on the list just because a couple of you
have so thoroughly dug yourselves into a position and now need to save face
is a disservice to everyone that reads this list. Here on the Kolb list we have
way to many guys that are so interested in saving face, or backing up their
friends in their little " clique ", that they forget about or ignore the truth.
>
> Information we publish here on the list not about WHO is right, it is about WHAT
is right. Many people read this list to make their airplanes safer and more
enjoyable, we owe it to them to post good and accurate information.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
Mike,
I don't know how this Kolb List was ever able to function before you
came along. I do know that it was a much more pleasant place to visit
before. Seems like every year or so, a new self-righteous individual
comes along and plays havoc with the list. I only wish I was as certain
of my perfect insight into what is right and wrong as you seem to be.
With your constant ravings we are slowly losing the quality of this
group and the individuals that made it a good thing. Must be a
generational thing for it seems that "some newcomers" are infected with
the missionary zeal of being the only one's who can see the truth! Who
are you going to insult and rave at when there is no one else left?
When you have proven yourself with many years of experience with a Kolb,
come back and tell us all about it in a civil and respectful manner!!
How many hours did you say you have?!!!!!!!!
How many other groups have you infected over the years?!!!!
Terry - FireFly #95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
At 06:15 PM 2/18/2008, Richard Girard wrote:
>...It's the leading edge radius and the flat bottom of the airfoil. The
>Kolb airfoil is about 12% thickness...
Any airfoil with a fairly sharp leading edge will have an fairly abrupt
stall. The flat bottom is irrelevant; it's just the product of the taper
and thickness distribution (though like the leading edge chosen, no doubt,
for ease of construction). Combine the abrupt stall with a low mass / high
drag aircraft and you get the behavior you see.
You don't want to flare too soon or high with a Quicksilver, either, or
you'll be straightening or replacing the landing gear downtubes (been
there, done that... once).
The test speeds for the other airfoils you mention has nothing to do with
it (except perhaps for some minor Reynolds number effects).
-Dana
--
The speed of light is greater than the speed of sound. That's why some
people seem very bright until you hear them speak.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
I have experienced Kolb quit, Cessna quit, and Piper quit. They all
plop down if your wheels are not on the ground when they are through
flying. Some call it "quit". I'll stick with "stall".
Steven
Mark III 912S
550 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Steven G:
Been sitting here waiting for your eloquent response to a very simple
question.
Kolbs are simple little airplanes that are fun and easy to fly.
If folks would spend more time playing with their Kolbs, rather than
trying to tell others how to do it and why they do it, maybe they would
learn how to land them without the dreaded "Kolb quit".
I shared this new expression with Homer Kolb. Homer looked at me and
gave me a big grin.
john h
mkIII -
I have experienced Kolb quit, Cessna quit, and Piper quit. They all
plop down if your wheels are not on the ground when they are through
flying. Some call it "quit". I'll stick with "stall".
Steven
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flykolb" <flykolb(at)wowway.com> |
| Subject: | Trailer for Mark III |
Hey guys and gals,
Could someone tell me the minimum size for a trailer for the Mark III
Classic? Width, length, height?
Thanks
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trailer for Mark III |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
8.5X24 is the right size for my MKIII classic The door opening is 75 inches tall
and it just clears it a ivo 3 blade on a 503.
82 inches between the wheel wells and 24' 4' long inside. 94 inch door opening
width and 96 inches wide.
It would probably go in a 7 wide trailer. I would also get one a little taller
if i ever got another trailer.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164996#164996
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very good
technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft are not
like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot
being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot would
not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as a
CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I can let students
get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing than in a
Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students
flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other aircraft
and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger gear, and partly
to do much more forgiving aerodynamics.
The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to correct this
bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon landing. VG's do not solve this
problem entirely, but my Kolb MK III is not anywhere near as critical in landing
as it was, and it does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as it
did without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what some may say
about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings much easier and less critical
in my Kolb, and that is a great thing.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164998#164998
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
On Feb 19, 2008, at 8:34 AM, JetPilot wrote:
> Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact.
< Smile >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
On Feb 19, 2008, at 8:34 AM, JetPilot wrote:
> If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
If you are not yet an idiot ,,,,,,,,,, your ego in not the size it
could be !!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
JetPilot wrote:
> Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very good
technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft are
not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot
being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot would
not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as
a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I can let
students get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing than in
a Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of
students flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other aircraft
and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger gear, and partly
to do much more forgiving aerodynamics.
>
> The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to correct this
bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon landing. VG's do not solve this
problem entirely, but my Kolb MK III is not anywhere near as critical in landing
as it was, and it does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as
it did without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what some may
say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings much easier and less critical
in my Kolb, and that is a great thing.
>
> Mike
Don't mean to jump in, but this is describing more a general characteristic of
(comparatively speaking) high-drag/low-inertia designs like the Kolb and not really
a unique characteristic of the Kolb.
In fact, I found the FS II I had required energy management techniques virtually
identical to the other UL/UL-like designs I've flown over the years. The closest
analog for me was my quicksilver (MX Super); it flew so close to that plane
that basically, as soon as I got used to the ground handling and tailwheel
aspect, I was off going around the pattern practicing my wheel landings.
As for the "drop", which is indeed only a euphemism for stalling the wing more
than a couple inches above the ground, the FSII behaved virtually identically
to my quicksilver in this respect. On the quick, of course, you're off to the
hangar to replace the axle and possibly the landing gear down tubes at that point,
but the Kolb is a little more durable, especally mine was because it had
large tundra-like tires on the mains.
My fun racer trike with the double surface wing would also exhibit the "drop" as
it had a similar fairly abrupt stall break and could be subject to the hazard
of the "drop".
But I never broke anything on the trike either. It could have have been that I'm
just so used to flying low-inertia designs that I remained well clear of hazardous
"drops" as best I could (I also wheel landed the FSII about 95% of the
time and only attempted 3 points in very calm weather).....
In any case, I found the Kolb gave no surprises, at least not to me, compared to
any other similar planes I"d flown. I can't think of any kind of situation
where the Kolb would lead to bent gear legs more (or less!) than any other light
aircraft.
As for training, the low-inertia aspect is the hardest one for pilots transitioning
from general aviation to get a handle on. Controlling the plane in the air,
takeoffs and so on are pretty easy, but landings (particularly the energy management
part) can yield a pretty sweaty and cursing student for several hours
at least.
Don't ask me how I know this is the case.
Finally, FWIW, I believe I recall being able to get the C150 to do the "drop",
but it required a low pass with no flaps in the flare attitude with progressively
more back elevator and reducing throttle.
The titan tornado will also do the drop, but it' stall AOA is also very high in
the flare and it also requires a lot of coaxing (and stupidity) to get it to
do it (and generally you bang the tailwheel down in the process).
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165011#165011
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vic Peters" <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop is a STALL |
Hey Ellery Are you talkin about me? I'm not scared of landing it's the
crashing that might bother me but mostly will I have to wear those
panties others have mentioned? Now that's scary.
On another note if you'ze guys watched the Science channel on how
insects that shouldn't be able to fly do and well. They explain that
some ride their own vortices (spell chk's out) which creates a low
pressure area. So Vg's do 2 things, help control separation and add
lift.
Did you need your prop bal. back?
Vic
Mkxtra unlanded by me
If all you guy's would just learn the correct terminology for Stalls and
recognize when your airplane is near a stall then you wouldn't have any
drop or sudden stop so until you learn how to fly your airplane
correctly could we have a more interesting conversation that could be
helpful to others on this list other than scaring the crap out of some
people here that haven't had the opportunity to fly a KOLB yet.
Ellery in Maine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Firestar Project |
The first wing has been patched and painted. As usual, everybody guessed wrong
on the paint chip chart. Oh, well- it's red. I painted it with the foam roller,
as advised, and it came out with a very rough finish- like hundreds of little
bumps. I think I should not have added thinner when rolling it. No runs or sags,
though. I will try something different on the second wing. The rear wing
attachment point has a rather massive removable lug- 7 ounces on the fish scale-
that resembles a Chevy wrist pin with a casting on the end. The original wings
have a piece of tubing welded to another-apparently one piece angling through
the wing. About 1/8"wall where the u-joint bolts on. I have all kinds of stock
to grind away, and it will still leave double the safety margin. I can then
use the original u-joint.
For anyone folding Kolb wings- my wings have a built-in jack socket near the
end to hold the wing up while assembling. A spring loaded 72" shower curtain
rod from Wal-Mart fits right over it, when I took the rubber off the end. One
hand expandable, too. I will make a male end for it to fit inside the socket.
It spins open and closed by itself, and has a spring loaded cushion inside. I
was throwing the old one away when I walked by the wing and noticed it. My wife
says a new one is about $11.
Bill Sullivan
Firestar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
At 08:34 AM 2/19/2008, JetPilot wrote:
>Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if
>very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training
>aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing...
All this talk makes me wonder... how many of the people on this list came
from a GA background, and learned to fly in a Cessna or similar, and how
many came from an ultralight background? I'd bet it's only the Cessna
drivers that have problems with the so called "Kolb quit", which is common
to all ultralights (I know a MLIII isn't an ultralight, but it's certainly
descended from one).
My old Taylorcraft required me to start my flare before I even got over the
runway threshold, if I didn't want to float half way down the runway. This
gave me some trouble at first when I got back into flying in a Quicksilver,
which like a Kolb, has to be flown right down to the ground. After a few
hours in the Quick, my Kolb gave me no trouble at all.
This is nothing new; Homer knew it well. From the original UltraStar manual:
"Many airplane pilots have flown the UltraStar for the first time
and had no difficulties.
"However, if pilots do have any trouble ut is usually in the
landing department. All proceeds well until it its time to flare for
landing; a typical airplane has much more weight than an ultralight, and
has much less drag than a typical ultralight does. An airplane comes in
twice as fast as a typical ultralight. An airplane therefore has many
times the energy to dissipate than a typical ultralight has, and less drag
to help dissipate it. A typical landing flare in an airplane will start
much higher than an ultralight because it has plenty of momentum to
dissipate before touching down.
"Thus when an airplane pilot gets into an ultralight, what can
happen is that the [airplane oriented] pilot tends to start to flare too
high in the air, he then stalls 10 to 15 feet above the runway and lands
quite hard which usually will collapse the landing gear... the safest way
to avoid this is to carry some power... you should fly the UltraStar onto
the ground..."
-Dana
--
"If yew ain't livin' on th' edge, yer takin' up too much room!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firestar project |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
William,
You do not want your wings to be very different from one another. Having wings
that are slightly different could cause a condition where one wing stalls earlier
than the other, or behaves differently in flight, neither would be good.
In other words, a stall could turn into a spin if both wings are not the same.
On a Kolb, I would guess that just a difference in the texture of the paint
between one wing and another will not make a noticeable difference, but I am
not sure. Just be careful when you test fly it. As a general rule, keep the
wings as close to each other in properties as you can.
One other thing I meant to tell you a while ago before the discussion got sidetracked,
on your weight, most non professional, non digital scales have large errors
at ultralight weights, 15 pounds or 6 % off would be a common error in most
scales at the weights you are dealing with. I would recommend you find,
or borrow a good digital scale and know exactly what the weight really is before
doing to much work on weight reduction.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165050#165050
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firestar project |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
One other thought on your weight. If when all is said and done, you are still
slightly overweight, you have a good legal option. You are allowed 24 pounds
extra weight if your ultralight is equipped with a BRS. A softpack BRS weighs
18 pounds, now you have an extra legal 6 pounds you can have on your plane.
This way, you are safer in two respects, you don't have to shave off structure
to the point where your plane becomes structurally weak, and you have the added
safety margin of having a BRS.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165059#165059
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Firestar Project |
Mike- The wings will be close, but I have to re-do the color coat. It came out
"orange peel" in appearance. I think I will try something different on the other
wing, to find out what went wrong. Then I'll re-finish the top coat. I do
see your point, also relative to the discussion on VG's the last few days. I
am new to this, so everyone keep teaching me and forgive my errors. I talked my
wife into buying a new digital scale for the "bathroom". At my age, I'll have
one of my grandchildren tell me how to use it. I ground and fitted threar attaching
lug. It now fits the factory u-joint. Looks good, works great, lots of
meat on it- more than the other wing set.
Bill
Old Firestar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
At 12:38 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote:
>At 08:34 AM 2/19/2008, JetPilot wrote:
>
>>Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing
>>if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other
>>training aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing...
>
>All this talk makes me wonder... how many of the people on this list
>came from a GA background, and learned to fly in a Cessna or
>similar, and how many came from an ultralight background? I'd bet
>it's only the Cessna drivers that have problems with the so called
>"Kolb quit", which is common to all ultralights (I know a MLIII
>isn't an ultralight, but it's certainly descended from one).
I think that's exactly what the problem is. You cannot make a Cessna
driver fly a kolb to the ground
no matter how many times you tell him. He will always flare too high.
Only bending the landing gear will "eventually" convince a GA pilot
that it will stop flying when you
pull back the throttle and flare a kolb. If they've never flown
anything, it is easier.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
At 01:53 PM 2/19/2008, robert bean wrote:
>My Kolb has a beneficial side however, as when I get an occasional gust
>just before touchdown that lifts us
>10' above the hard stuff. In a more conventional tractor high wing craft
>a sudden addition of power at this
>point will rotate the nose up, putting you in a worse attitude unless you
>(after some misadventures) push the
>stick forward simultaneously.
>In the Kolb all this happens automatically when the pusher prop adjusts
>things quite nicely for you.
Except in my UltraStar... the engine is much lower than the other Kolb
designs, so it behaves like a more conventional airplane.
-Dana
--
The two most common elements in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Aaron Gustafson" <agustafson(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Project |
For doing small paint touchups and spraying just about anything there is
a little cheap system available at most auto parts stores. It is called
a "PREVAIL SPAYER"
http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_PaintProsUSA_ff80808117344aab01175581fc
276445.html?gclid=CMSlxIWy0ZECFQkqIgoduWdOzw. It is a small (less than
one cup) glass jar with a replaceable aerosol unit that screws on. I
have been using them for 37 years.
Aaron G
----- Original Message -----
From: william sullivan
I painted it with the foam roller, as advised, and it came out with a
very rough finish- like hundreds of little bumps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Project |
At 06:23 PM 2/19/2008, Aaron Gustafson wrote:
>For doing small paint touchups and spraying just about anything there is a
>little cheap system available at most auto parts stores. It is called a
>"PREVAIL SPAYER"
><http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_PaintProsUSA_ff80808117344aab01175581fc276445.html?gclid=CMSlxIWy0ZECFQkqIgoduWdOzw>http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_PaintProsUSA_ff80808117344aab01175581fc276445.html?gclid=CMSlxIWy0ZECFQkqIgoduWdOzw.
>It is a small (less than one cup) glass jar with a replaceable aerosol
>unit that screws on. I have been using them for 37 years...
I have a bigger sprayer too, but for some small repairs I recently did on
my UltraStar, I used a small Badger airbrush (no compressor, uses a can of
Freon as propellent).
-Dana
--
But I don't have an "any key" on my computer!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed
in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft.
That's it, I've had it, time to unplug for a while.
Steve
In a message dated 2/19/2008 8:37:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot"
Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very
good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft
are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the
pilot being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot
would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb,
and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I
can let students get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing
than in a Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing.
Hundreds of students flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and
other aircraft and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger
gear, and partly to do much more forgiving aerodynamics.
The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to correct
this bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon landing. VG's do not solve
this problem entirely, but my Kolb MK III is not anywhere near as critical in
landing as it was, and it does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet
high as it did without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what
some may say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings much easier and
less critical in my Kolb, and that is a great thing.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164998#164998
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flykolb" <flykolb(at)wowway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trailer for Mark III |
Thanks for the quick reply.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 8:19 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Trailer for Mark III
>
> 8.5X24 is the right size for my MKIII classic The door opening is 75
inches tall and it just clears it a ivo 3 blade on a 503.
>
> 82 inches between the wheel wells and 24' 4' long inside. 94 inch door
opening width and 96 inches wide.
>
> It would probably go in a 7 wide trailer. I would also get one a little
taller if i ever got another trailer.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164996#164996
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
I hate to see blame thrown where it shouldn't be thrown.
Of course it shouldn't be called the "Kolb drop"; no need blaming the
Kolb design for a perfectly normal flight occurrence. It's simply a
stall, and ALL wings will stall. All pilots should feel this out, at
a safe altitude.
Basically, the heavier the aircraft, the higher speed at which it
will stall, and the earlier you should start your flare. (BTW, it's
'flare', not flair). I fly would a twin Otter or DC-3 much
differently than I would a Cub or Champ. Huge weight difference.
Wing design is also a factor. Wing 'washout' or 'twist' reduces the
abruptness of the stall, delays it and makes it gentler. Worst I
ever flew was the BD-4, whose wing has NO washout at all. One minute
it was flying, then the next second --WHAM ! it was nose-down, headed
toward the ground. Scary.
They're all similar, but all different.
Learn to fly your aircraft!.
I'm sure Kolbs are no worse than the others. Just different.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Project |
In a message dated 2/19/2008 6:26:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,
d-m-hague(at)comcast.net writes:
I have a bigger sprayer too, but for some small repairs I recently did on my
Ultra Star, I used a small Badger airbrush (no compressor, uses a can of
Freon as propellent).
-Dana
I've done the same thing! Works great! At the hangar where I didn't
have a compressor I used a spare tire for the propellant.
Ed FF # 62
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Building your own gear legs |
| From: | "Vern" <verdixbo(at)sisqtel.net> |
Hello everyone
I,m the new guy on the block
I own a mark 3 and I want to build new gear legs for her.
A little taller and set a little forward.
Could you fellows tell me what tubing thickness everyone uses when building 4130
gear legs and where you get them heat treated, cost ect.
I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks Vern
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165164#165164
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
Can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive, instrument for setting the AOA on my
Firestar? With the wing mounting modification (TNK approved) I have to make
sure I get it close when I drill the hole for the front bracket.
Bill
old FS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
> I,m the new guy on the block
> Thanks Vern
Hi Vern:
Tell us a little bit about yourself, who, what, when, and where.
I use 1.125 X .125 4130.
Heat treat to RC48.
Here is a metal treating company I have used in the past. They had a plant
in Anniston, AL, last time I had a heat treating requirement, but looks like
they have shut that plant down:
http://www.braddockmt.com/
You can do a Google search for "metal treating" or "heat treating" and come
up with lots of places to get the job done.
I find it much easier to fabricate and fit the gear legs with axle sockets
welded on, wheels aligned and all holes drilled prior to heat treating.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb Drop |
> May be Kolb Drop should be redefined as Earth Jump. Earth Jump can be
> equally applied to all aircraft with out giving undue credit and it easily
> explains away why the earth is not in the correct position when these
> pilots
> flared or were repositioning their aircraft.
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H:
I like that explanation.
I'm sure Kolb Quit could not be related to pilot technique. ;-)
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com> |
VG's on one wing . . . . It's been done !
Was talking to a certain KOLB pilot one day at a fly-in and was discussing the
Mklllxtra and the pro's and con's of fitting VG's when this admission came out.
The resulting test stall 'maneuver' was, as he put it, 'very interesting !'
I've just checked a definition of 'maneuver'. It says " A deliberate coordinated
movement requiring dexterity and skill " Not so sure that 'maneuver' is the
correct word now. Yes it was deliberate but I'm not so sure you could call the
event 'coordinated' although it did, no doubt, require 'dexterity and skill'
in the following recovery.
Anyway, the VG's are on both wings now that his curiosity is satisfied, and I got
the distinct impression that he's not going to do that again.
If that particular KOLB pilot (who monitors and occasionally contributes to the
list) wants to post some info on this but still remain anonymous [Wink] , then
please contact me off list and I'll 'cut 'n paste' your reply .
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165227#165227
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
VG's definitely make my Mark III land easier and lighter. I lost around 3 or 4
mph cruise with them. Hopefully, I will find an airspeed that makes good use
of the VG effect and increase my range by lowering the rpms required to give
a slower and more economical cruise. I would like 60 mph at a fuel burn of 2
gallons per hour. Probably the VG effect will not happen until the airspeed lowers
to around 50 mph. Need a wind tunnel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gary aman <gaman(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb Drop |
Maybe a little refresher course on gravity and airspeed would be helpful if they
are having difficulty with the earth jump concept.Someone said the earth sucks
when you get that close to it.
----- Original Message ----
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:35:13 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb Drop
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Seems many are missing the point in this thread, the reasons for the Kolb Drop
are well known, and with proper landing techniques, it can be dealt with.
The more important point is that VG"s make the Kolb Drop much less severe. Pilots
are human, no one lands perfectly all the time. VG's can make the difference
between bent gear, and just a less than perfect landing. I would much rather
have plane that is more forgiving on landing, rather than one that probably
result in damage the first time I flare a bit high.
It is obvious that the people that are saying VG's don't make landings in a Kolb
much more docile are the people that dont have VG's.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165229#165229
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
I have also gotten some private emails for information about VG's from people that
want to install them, and I will respect their privacy.
The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of individuals
has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group bashing on this list
that people are now afraid to post good information on Kolbs. I cant say I
blame people for not wanting to post information that this group does not like,
just look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal attacks and nasty
posts are quietly ignored and supported by this group. If you disagree with
one of the members of this small group, there is a quick negative public response
by them. There is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a
standard of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone is
saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
The fact that people are now afraid to post good and accurate information on Kolbs
here on the list speaks very poorly for this group.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165232#165232
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
>
> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of
> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group
> bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post good information
> on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting to post information
> that this group does not like, just look at the two nasty responses I got
> yesterday that were nothing more than nasty and personal attacks, and were
> quietly supported.
>
> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal attacks
> and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this group. If you
> disagree with one of the members of this small group, there is a quick
> negative public response by them. There is not on this list of keeping
> things civil, there is a standard of keeping posts civil, unless some
> people don't like what someone is saying, then personal attacks and nasty
> posts are tolerated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the plane that
John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built myself using the
formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this list long ago when VG's
first appeared on this list. The stall on this Firestar has dropped to 32
MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I
don't think I lost any speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly
while flaring. I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I
installed the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being dishonest or
attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose to use them. For what
its worth John is a much better pilot than I am, more experience, more time
generally adds up to better skills. As for the VG flight test that occurred
between John and Richard, I am afraid that it was not a very valid test.
John did his considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that
he could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more comfortable in
flying that close to another airplane.
Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not everyone
sees the same answer to the same question. Where the problem shows up with
you Mike is quite frankly your choice of words. Every time that "Idiot" or
"plain stupid" shows up in one of your messages, the meaning is lost, every
thing is lost except the knowledge that we who are reading it and might have
a divergent view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a personal
attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like assholes, every one has
one and few see the need for two. Lighten up a bit!
Larry C
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:40 PM, JetPilot wrote:
> If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Hey guys
If you have not yet created an atmosphere of intimidation, and group
bashing on this list your ego is not yet as inflated as it could be.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com> |
just look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
I'd say "quietly praised" in this case.
> From: lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: K
olb-List: Re: Vg's> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:08:46 -0700> > --> Kolb-List
message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" > > > ----- Ori
ginal Message ----- > From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>> >> > The b
igger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of > > individua
ls has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group > > bashing on
this list that people are now afraid to post good information > > on Kolbs
. I cant say I blame people for not wanting to post information > > that th
is group does not like, just look at the two nasty responses I got > > yest
erday that were nothing more than nasty and personal attacks, and were > >
quietly supported.> >> > If you agree with this small " Clique " of individ
uals, personal attacks > > and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supporte
d by this group. If you > > disagree with one of the members of this small
group, there is a quick > > negative public response by them. There is not
on this list of keeping > > things civil, there is a standard of keeping po
sts civil, unless some > > people don't like what someone is saying, then p
ersonal attacks and nasty > > posts are tolerated.> -----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------> > I will try, probably in vain,
but try I will! Mike, I have the plane that > John H flew with the VG's. Th
ey are ones that I built myself using the > formula that Howard Shackleford
presented to this list long ago when VG's > first appeared on this list. T
he stall on this Firestar has dropped to 32 > MPH from 46MPH. Straight and
level at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I > don't think I lost any speed
, but I sure increased the time that I can fly > while flaring. I like it,
a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I > installed the VG's. John doe
sn't see the need to do that to his plane. I > don't have a problem with th
at! I don't think that he is being dishonest or > attempting to say that I
am a sissy because I choose to use them. For what > its worth John is a muc
h better pilot than I am, more experience, more time > generally adds up to
better skills. As for the VG flight test that occurred > between John and
Richard, I am afraid that it was not a very valid test. > John did his cons
iderable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that > he could have
pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more comfortable in > flying tha
t close to another airplane.> > Where the problem shows up is when people c
annot accept that not everyone > sees the same answer to the same question.
Where the problem shows up with > you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
words. Every time that "Idiot" or > "plain stupid" shows up in one of your
messages, the meaning is lost, every > thing is lost except the knowledge
that we who are reading it and might have > a divergent view have been disr
espected. If these same views were expressed > face to face, I suspect that
you might receive a bit more of a personal > attack than a verbal one. Opi
nions are a lot like assholes, every one has > one and few see the need for
========================> _
===========> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Noyer <a58r(at)verizon.net> |
Ray, ck Archives.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
DAVID! PLEASE DO!!
On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:00 PM, David Lucas wrote:
>
> VG's on one wing . . . . It's been done !
>
> Was talking to a certain KOLB pilot one day at a fly-in and was
> discussing the Mklllxtra and the pro's and con's of fitting VG's
> when this admission came out. The resulting test stall 'maneuver'
> was, as he put it, 'very interesting !'
>
> I've just checked a definition of 'maneuver'. It says " A
> deliberate coordinated movement requiring dexterity and skill " Not
> so sure that 'maneuver' is the correct word now. Yes it was
> deliberate but I'm not so sure you could call the event
> 'coordinated' although it did, no doubt, require 'dexterity and
> skill' in the following recovery.
>
> Anyway, the VG's are on both wings now that his curiosity is
> satisfied, and I got the distinct impression that he's not going to
> do that again.
>
> If that particular KOLB pilot (who monitors and occasionally
> contributes to the list) wants to post some info on this but still
> remain anonymous [Wink] , then please contact me off list and I'll
> 'cut 'n paste' your reply .
>
> David.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165227#165227
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that that
recent post came from 'jetpilot'
Thanks for speaking out
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
>>
>> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of
>> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and
>> group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post good
>> information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting
>> to post information that this group does not like, just look at
>> the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
>> than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
>>
>> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal
>> attacks and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this
>> group. If you disagree with one of the members of this small
>> group, there is a quick negative public response by them. There
>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone
>> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the
> plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built
> myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this
> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on
> this Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level
> at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any
> speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly while flaring.
> I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I installed
> the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
> don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being
> dishonest or attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose
> to use them. For what its worth John is a much better pilot than I
> am, more experience, more time generally adds up to better skills.
> As for the VG flight test that occurred between John and Richard, I
> am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did his
> considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that he
> could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more
> comfortable in flying that close to another airplane.
>
> Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not
> everyone sees the same answer to the same question. Where the
> problem shows up with you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
> words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" shows up in one of
> your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lost except the
> knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a divergent
> view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
> face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a
> personal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like
> assholes, every one has one and few see the need for two. Lighten
> up a bit!
> Larry C
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ross richardson <smlplanet(at)msn.com> |
Thank you for your comment, I am one of those lurkers & learners with an op
en mind and make my own judgments as to what I think about an idea or sugge
stion. Having both a Mark III 912UL and Challenger II CWS and flying GA & U
L's for 40 on and off years and heard a lot of so called guru's when it com
es to flying. I use to monitor the Challenger site also up till a year or s
o ago. There got to be to much back biting and inflated ego's and the main
intent was lost for the site which was friendship, discuss and learn from o
thers and to help with our experiences. I find it sad that I am seeing the
same thing happening on the Kolb site when there is so many on the site tha
t has good information. I now find my self checking and deleting certain me
mbers with out reading their comments. It may be my loose but enough of the
back biting and inflated ego's. How many people that really wants or needs
information is turned off with this so called mature attitude. We have bur
ied several in the past 3-4 years with the know it all and inflated ego's w
hich has not helped per mote or expand the LSA & UL interest not to mention
the publics view as a fast way to kill your self.
We have all bent a landing leg at some time but the worst is persons trans
ition from GA to LSA, flaring to high. > From: russ(at)rkiphoto.com> S
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:57:01 -0500> To:
ss(at)rkiphoto.com>> > Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly beli
eve that that > recent post came from 'jetpilot'> Thanks for speaking out>
ue.com>> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@
hotmail.com>> >>> >> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a sm
all group of > >> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidatio
n, and > >> group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post g
ood > >> information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting >
>> to post information that this group does not like, just look at > >> the
two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more > >> than nasty
and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.> >>> >> If you agree wit
h this small " Clique " of individuals, personal > >> attacks and nasty pos
ts are quietly ignored and supported by this > >> group. If you disagree wi
th one of the members of this small > >> group, there is a quick negative p
ublic response by them. There > >> is not on this list of keeping things ci
vil, there is a standard > >> of keeping posts civil, unless some people do
n't like what someone > >> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts
are tolerated.> > --------------------------------------------------------
-------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------
-------------> >> > I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I h
ave the > > plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I buil
t > > myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this >
> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on > > thi
s Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level > > at 6000
rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any > > speed, but I sur
e increased the time that I can fly while flaring. > > I like it, a lot. I
have bent my share of gear before I installed > > the VG's. John doesn't se
e the need to do that to his plane. I > > don't have a problem with that! I
don't think that he is being > > dishonest or attempting to say that I am
a sissy because I choose > > to use them. For what its worth John is a much
better pilot than I > > am, more experience, more time generally adds up t
o better skills. > > As for the VG flight test that occurred between John a
nd Richard, I > > am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did his
> > considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that he > >
could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more > > comfortable
in flying that close to another airplane.> >> > Where the problem shows up
is when people cannot accept that not > > everyone sees the same answer to
the same question. Where the > > problem shows up with you Mike is quite fr
ankly your choice of > > words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" s
hows up in one of > > your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lo
st except the > > knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a div
ergent > > view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
> > face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a > > pers
onal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like > > assholes, every
one has one and few see the need for two. Lighten > > up a bit!> > Larry C>
====> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver(at)bellsouth.net> |
Can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive, instrument for setting the
AOA on my Firestar? With the wing mounting modification (TNK approved) I
have to make sure I get it close when I drill the hole for the front
bracket.
Bill
old FS
Bill,
I used an ordinary 4' level to set the wing incidence on my Mark III.
For 1 degree add 0.838" block or spacer on the very end of the level.
The angle I needed to set the bottom of the wing to on the MKIII was 9
degrees, that equates to a 7.5" block between the level and the wing at
the leading edge of the wing.
Jack Hart...Check my math so I don't mislead anyone, please.
Steven Green (The Idiot)
MK III 912S 550 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "boyd" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | kolb list re: kolb drop |
>It is obvious that the people that are saying VG's don't make landings in a
>Kolb much more docile are the people that dont have VG's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Or maybe better said:
" It is obvious that the people that are saying VG's don't make landings in
a >Kolb much more docile are the people that HAVE LEARNED TO LAND"
[Boyd]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
Bill,
I used an ordinary 4' level to set the wing incidence on my Mark III. For
1 degree add 0.838" block or spacer on the very end of the level. The angle
I needed to set the bottom of the wing to on the MKIII was 9 degrees, that
equates to a 7.5" block between the level and the wing at the leading edge
of the wing.
Jack Hart...Check my math so I don't mislead anyone, please.
.............................
Steven,
It checks out OK
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
sorry, everyone. I thought I sent that 'off-list' Obviously not. My
apologies
On Feb 20, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Russ Kinne wrote:
>
> Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that
> that recent post came from 'jetpilot'
> Thanks for speaking out
>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot"
>>
>>>
>>> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group
>>> of individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation,
>>> and group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post
>>> good information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not
>>> wanting to post information that this group does not like, just
>>> look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing
>>> more than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
>>>
>>> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal
>>> attacks and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this
>>> group. If you disagree with one of the members of this small
>>> group, there is a quick negative public response by them. There
>>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what
>>> someone is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are
>>> tolerated.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the
>> plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built
>> myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this
>> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on
>> this Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level
>> at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any
>> speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly while flaring.
>> I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I installed
>> the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
>> don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being
>> dishonest or attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose
>> to use them. For what its worth John is a much better pilot than I
>> am, more experience, more time generally adds up to better
>> skills. As for the VG flight test that occurred between John and
>> Richard, I am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did
>> his considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that
>> he could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more
>> comfortable in flying that close to another airplane.
>>
>> Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not
>> everyone sees the same answer to the same question. Where the
>> problem shows up with you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
>> words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" shows up in one
>> of your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lost except
>> the knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a
>> divergent view have been disrespected. If these same views were
>> expressed face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit
>> more of a personal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot
>> like assholes, every one has one and few see the need for two.
>> Lighten up a bit!
>> Larry C
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
> This is how I did it.
> John Bickham
John B:
Ya done good.
MKIII looks good, and I know it flies good. My fat mkIII has a hard time
keeping up with yours.
The positive camber looks great. Negative camber on a Kolb is intolerable.
;-)
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | pictures from 1st flight of the MK III |
| From: | "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> |
2-16-2008 1st flight in my Kolb MK III
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712639)
Here I am unfolding the Kolb
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712640)
Ready to unfold the right wing
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712643)
Danny Tyre( instructor/ test pilot lifting a sack full of weights to balance the
plane for his 1st test flights.
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712646)
1st test flight
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712647)
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712651)
Getting ready to get in for my 1st flight!
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712652)
Strapping myself in
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712653)
Closing the door
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712655)
Taxing out Danny and I
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712656)
My 1st flight in my Kolb!!
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712657)
Last flight of the day at sunset!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165324#165324
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
At 08:41 PM 2/20/2008, John Bickham wrote:
>...tires. Between the Heat treated still legs and the larger tires, the
>cushion and energy absorbed on landing is great. I really had trouble
>knowing when I was down and rolling when I first used the new setup. You
>have to experiment with the air pressure a bit. Too much air pressure
>will throw you back into the air...
This reminds me of a totally different question I've been meaning to ask.
My UltraStar, of course, has absolutely no flex to the gear legs, so the
tires are it. I have Freebird wheels and brakes, with tubeless wheelbarrow
tires. With fairly low air pressure I get adequate cushioning, but the
other day I was turning tight on the runway with the help of brakes, and
apparently twisted the tire right on the wheel enough to make it go
completely flat. The tire never came completely off the wheel, so I was
able to reinflate it with no problem. Is this a common problem? How do
you deal with this... should I be using tubes?
-Dana
--
Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
How do
> you deal with this... should I be using tubes?
>
> -Dana
Dana:
That is what I would do.
I run tubes in my tires.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 2/20/2008 5:19:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,
russ(at)rkiphoto.com writes:
There
>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone
>> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
Mike,
Could you explain what You are trying to convey, to the list, with
this statement ? I for one don"t understand.
Ed FF # 62 Do Not Archive
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAquaNut(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re:alcohol and carb jets |
Group,
Just found out that L.E.A.F. claims that you need to go up to the next
size main jet for every 10% of alcohol in your fuel. Out of all my research
I
just now found out Maybe this weekend I can get my egts cooled a bit!
Ed FF # 62
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
Thanks, Jack. My front brackets on the wings have three holes, and I have to put
in a 2 1/2" forward spacer. I don't know if the original builder of these wings
was experimenting, or goofed in his method. I have to start over because of
the difference in airframe mounting brackets. Can't do much more on that until
the cold weather breaks. Another wing repair starting next week if the tarp
doesn't get frozen to the ground.
Bill
Old FS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
| From: | "Wade Lawicki" <wlawicki(at)yahoo.com> |
Dana,
I have had the same problem on several planes. Tubes help keep it from coming
off the bead but, then sometimes from using low psi you will spin the tire
on the rim tearing up the stem of the tube. You can usually fix that by drilling
2 small holes in the bead of the rim and put small screws into the bead of
the tire to keep them from spinning under heavy breaking but, from then on you
will not be able to go tubeless.
Fly Safe,
Wade
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165355#165355
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
| From: | "Vern" <verdixbo(at)sisqtel.net> |
Thanks for the good information. The plane looks really good.
John wanted me to tell a little about myself.
I live in the very Northern part of calif. The nearest Kolb flyer that I know of
is over in Klamath falls Oregon.
I have restored a couple of planes and built a RV7 and now your wondering why I
have a Kolb Mark 3.
Well I have to get to the airport somehow. Actually I like to build and tinker
and while I,m building and tinkering I just as well build a plane that I can fly
off my place witch is 1/2 mile long and 329' wide. But its not good enough
for the RV7A. I like to fly slow as well as fast.
I have a mill , lathe, mig & tig so I'm setup for building. I plan on building
a aluminum fuel tank for the Kolb.
Well enough for now. I will probably be picking your brains before its over with
Vern
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165361#165361
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
Wade/All,
No need to drill holes. Go to a good hobby shop, especially one
that sells nitro cars, and buy some 'tire glue'. The stuff holds the slicks
on my 1/4-scale sprinter during burn-outs, with no air pressure
(foam-filled) (no, not sea-foam!).
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wade Lawicki" <wlawicki(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:35 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs
>
> Dana,
> I have had the same problem on several planes. Tubes help keep it
> from coming off the bead but, then sometimes from using low psi you will
> spin the tire on the rim tearing up the stem of the tube. You can usually
> fix that by drilling 2 small holes in the bead of the rim and put small
> screws into the bead of the tire to keep them from spinning under heavy
> breaking but, from then on you will not be able to go tubeless.
>
> Fly Safe,
> Wade
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165355#165355
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
| From: | "johnjoyes" <john(at)joyes.org.uk> |
Those of you arguing about the "Kolb Drop" might like ti hear my completely different
experience, when I too bent the legs of my Mk3.
I was storming in, two-up, much faster than usual, a steep descent, almost a dive,
with no flap, throttle fully off. When I came to flare, the stick came all
the way back to the stop with zero resistance, while the plane carried straight
on (into the ground) with no attempt to flare.
My inspector says I would be amazed to know how many aircraft there are out there
with some combination of attitide and speed where the tail is caught in a vortex
from the main wing, and does nothing.
Because of the speed, this could not be a stall. The remedy is to learn the characteristics
of your plane, at a safe altitude. Now I always keep a bit of power
on for landing, to ensure airflow over the tail.
I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my experience,
the place to put them first is on the underside of the tailplane just ahead of
the elevator.
JJ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165372#165372
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
arguing about the "Kolb Drop" >>
If we are to continue talking unendingly about this phenomenon, even when
there cannot be a single syllable which has not been repeated ad infinitum,
can we please call it the `Kolb Quit` not the `Kolb Drop`.
Kolb Quit has a nice alliterative feel to it and makes it easier for those
of us who move their lips when they read.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
At 04:41 AM 2/21/2008, johnjoyes wrote:
>Because of the speed, this could not be a stall.
Not saying it's what happened, but stall is a function of AOA, not speed.
>I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my
>experience, the place to put them first is on the underside of the
>tailplane just ahead of the elevator.
If the tailplane had stalled, that might have helped. But VG's on the
tail won't keep the wing from stalling.
-Dana
--
Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com> |
Any Kolbers in FL, east of Pensacola?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
> If we are to continue talking unendingly about this phenomenon, even when
> there cannot be a single syllable which has not been repeated ad
> infinitum, can we please call it the `Kolb Quit` not the `Kolb Drop`.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
Patrick:
Sorry to correct you but, Kolb aircraft do not suffer from Kolb Quit or Kolb
Drop, only the pilots do.
Personally, I do not like the terms. They tend to implie Kolb aircraft have
a problem, when in reality there is none. Pilots of some Kolbs have a
problem landing. In fact, some Kolb pilots have problems taxiing and flying
them.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BMWBikeCrz(at)aol.com |
Anyone running a 66 inch prop ? How much boom clearance do you have ?
Also Do Larger props with higher inertia cause More P factor to the point
that a smaller prop with less inertia would be more desirable and make a more
controllable Airplane ?
Could a high inertia prop cause stress damage on an older Firestar ?
Thanks !
Dave
**************
Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duff
y/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop size ?? |
| From: | "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com> |
BMWBikeCrz(at)aol.comA
>
>
> Anyone running a 66 inch prop ? How much boom clearance do you have ?
> Also Do Larger props with higher inertia cause More P factor to the point that
a smaller prop with less inertia would be more desirable and make a more controllable
Airplane ?
>
> Could a high inertia prop cause stress damage on an older Firestar ?
>
> Thanks ! Dave]
I've been using an Ivo 66"prop for all these years. A 66" prop is what is recommended
for the Firestar.
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar
N91493 E-AB
21 years flying it
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165385#165385
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Sorry to correct you but, Kolb aircraft do not suffer from Kolb Quit or Kolb
Drop, only the pilots do>>
Absolutely right John, as usual.. If an aircraft loses flying speed 6 ft up
instead of 6 inches it will stop flying however it is spelt
Cheers
Pat.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
Dave- My Firestar has a Rotax 447 with a Warp Drive ground adjustable 2 blade prop.
The boom clearance is one inch. According to the former owner, everything
works just fine. The only notable item is paint missing at the top of the boom,
at the clearance point. Sandblasting? Runs fine on the ground. I can't tell
you what pitch it's set at, or inertia problems. Good luck.
Bill
Old Firestar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
Sorry Dave- I forgot to tell you, mine is a 66" prop.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: pictures from 1st flight of the MK III |
| From: | "Dwight" <haydend(at)charter.net> |
Grant, Congrats on your first flight with your new Kolb! I know you are going to
love this adventure. You've come a long way from the RC Spads.
an old friend from your past, (Think Spadfest)
Dwight Hayden
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165402#165402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "cspoke" <cspoke(at)gulftel.com> |
I am just West of Pensacola if that helps.
--------
Craig Spoke
Mark 111 Xtra (in the works)
Lillian, AL
cspoke(at)gulftel.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165421#165421
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Charlie England wrote:
> There's a much better option. Just install a message 'filter' so you
> never see posts from people you find offensive. It works great; only
> fails when someone else responds to the offensive poster (hint, hint).
> If you need help setting up the filter, I'm sure there are several
> people on this list who would help, including me.
>
> Charlie
>
> N27SB(at)aol.com wrote:
>> Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have
>> instructed in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft.
>>
>>
>> That's it, I've had it, time to unplug for a while.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> In a message dated 2/19/2008 8:37:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on
>> landing if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other
>> most other training aircraft are not like this, they are much
>> more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot being a
>> little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot
>> would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in
>> the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General
>> aviation aircraft, I can let students get much further off speed,
>> or flare a lot higher on landing than in a Kolb, and not bend the
>> gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students
>> flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other
>> aircraft and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to
>> stronger gear, and partly to do much more forgiving aerodynamics.
>>
>> The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to
>> correct this bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon
>> landing. VG's do not solve this problem entirely, but my Kolb MK
>> III is not anywhere near as critical in landing as it was, and it
>> does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as it did
>> without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what
>> some may say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings
>> much easier and less critical in my Kolb, and that is a great thing.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>> as you could have !!!
>>
>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164998#164998
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
Its common if the air pressure is too low. I would go with custom gear legs. Slightly
thinner, or longer with same thickness. There is really not much else you
can do. I guess I would try wheels at low pressure with inners, but you can
rip the stem off of them if the pressure is too low. Me I'd probably try to add
some length through some adopter tube or sleeve to the gear. Don't know about
your machine as I don't know what your gear looks like. But you can try the
ideas they're free. :-)
Ron (TxAz)
=====================================
---- Dana Hague wrote:
============
At 08:41 PM 2/20/2008, John Bickham wrote:
>...tires. Between the Heat treated still legs and the larger tires, the
>cushion and energy absorbed on landing is great. I really had trouble
>knowing when I was down and rolling when I first used the new setup. You
>have to experiment with the air pressure a bit. Too much air pressure
>will throw you back into the air...
This reminds me of a totally different question I've been meaning to ask.
My UltraStar, of course, has absolutely no flex to the gear legs, so the
tires are it. I have Freebird wheels and brakes, with tubeless wheelbarrow
tires. With fairly low air pressure I get adequate cushioning, but the
other day I was turning tight on the runway with the help of brakes, and
apparently twisted the tire right on the wheel enough to make it go
completely flat. The tire never came completely off the wheel, so I was
able to reinflate it with no problem. Is this a common problem? How do
you deal with this... should I be using tubes?
-Dana
--
Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock.
--
kugelair.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Bigelow" <up_country(at)hotmail.com> |
At the risk of beating this tired subject to death:
1. With the "Landshorter" VG's on my Firestar, stall was reduced from somewhere
in 35-40 mph range to 30 mph. That is with a calibrated airspeed indicator
with exterior static ports. The VG's were installed exactly as suggested by the
Landshorter people.
2. Control authority and feel is much improved during slow flight right down to
the stall break. The actual stall is more pronounced with VG's than without.
Stall is abrupt without warning, much like a sailplane laminar wing stall.
3. The Firestar floats better in ground effect with VG's than without during the
landing flare.
4. There is a slight decrease in cruise airspeed at the same power setting with
VG's.
5. I would highly recommend any low time pilot, particularly without Kolb experience,
learn to fly his plane without VG's. After installing them, climb out
to a couple thousand feet above the ground and do power on and power off stalls
straight ahead to get a feel for your new plane. The VG's do change it that
much. Then do the same with 20-30 degree bank angle. Do not get slow on approach,
for if you do stall the plane, the nose drops much more radically than
it does without the VG's.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165521#165521
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
> 1. With the "Landshorter" VG's on my Firestar, stall was reduced
>
> 2. Stall is abrupt without warning, much like a sailplane laminar wing
> stall.
>
> 3. The Firestar floats better in ground effect with VG's than without
> during the landing flare.
> --------
> Dave Bigelow
Dave B:
I edited your post to reflect the test results I obtained from the test
flight I made with Larry Cottrell's FSII.
Folks, I think Dave's test results more acurately relect the changes VG's
make in a FS, and probably other Kolb models, than any other test results
that have been posted to the Kolb List to date.
Hopefully, folks will appreciate my choice of not installing VG's on my
mkIII. Not because they do not work, but because I have no need for them.
Thanks..........
john h
mkIII - The slick wing model. ;-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Kolb Videos On Our Web Site |
Morning Gang:
I don't have much info on these three videos, but they are good.
I believe these folks are the Adams from Missouri.
These videos are posted to the Kolb Web Site.
Please take note that these Kolbs are not equipped with VG's, best I can
tell. From my observations, they seem to be flying, taking off and
landing, like any normal Kolb airplane.
If this gentleman was to land any slower, he would be backing up.
http://www.kolbsport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=
49&Itemid=77
john h
mkIII - Vids remind me of flying in the 1980's.
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Brown
n27sb(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:17 AM
Subject: Kolb Videos On Our Web Site
click this link and check out these videos.
http://www.kolbsport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=
49&Itemid=77
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
John, and group of Kolb Guys,
I just watched all 3 videos, in their entirety, and must say that this latest
discussion about "Kolb quit" (as Pat prefers to call it) has been the most useless
thread I've read in years!!
Watching these gentlemen fly and land their Firestars reminded me of why I wanted
a Kolb in the first place...namely because they are incredibly docile machines.
Conversions about stalling and bending landing gear and Kolb drop and
other inane subjects have only lead to fears to those of us that have yet to fly
our planes.
I have several hundred hours of flight time on my Cessna 172. I have never come
even close to bending the landing gear. I've never dropped it in from 10'
feet up. I've never stalled it as I was landing. (Although I watched someone
do this on a 152 rental plane). Now I say to myself "why would I fear landing
a Kolb, providing I FLY THE PLANE!!!"
Now, I'm NOT coming down on anyone who has ever bent landing gear. I know crap
happens. Even the best among us can have a lapse of concentration and make
a misjudgement. This may very well happen to me, someday. But having just watched
an excellent example of potential Kolb performance, long drawn-out discussions
on falling out the sky seem useless. Learn to fly the plane, simple as
that.
I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am building
an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft.
Mike Welch
Kolb MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fly the plane!! |
Now I say to myself "why would I fear landing a Kolb, providing I FLY THE
PLANE!!!"
>
>
> I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am
> building an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft.
>
> Mike Welch
Mike W:
Exactly what I have been saying.
I still bend a gear leg now and then, I think twice in the last couple
thousand hours. Most of the time is like the last gear leg bender, doing
something that is not quite ordinary. Landed with a passenger in a terraced
hay field. Got a little behind and off my intended tract, jumped a terrace
at less than flying speed landing on one gear leg. Result, bent gear leg.
Usually, it takes me a few times being asleep at the controls to land hard
enough to bend one. Again, that is what hydraulic presses are for.
I bent the 1" gear legs on my original FS during taxi preparing for its
maiden flight. Fixed that by going to what was then Twinstar 1 1/8" legs.
If I had VG's I'd probably still bend gear legs. I like to fly a little out
of the ordinary.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Adams" <altojazz35(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Hello everyone!
Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I
decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully) with
the VG discussion.
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed,
I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36) My father built
a Firestar 1 back around 1990 which is where I received my introduction
to the Kolb aircraft. He has flown many airplanes in his 40 years of
flying and to this day he will tell you hands down, the Firestar is the
best airplane he has ever flown. After receiving my private pilot
certificate, I got a chance to fly his airplane and it was a joy. It
wasn't long after that I got a Firestar 2 for myself. In fact, the
private airport where we fly has a small hangar (barn) with about 12 to
14 airplanes (approx). There have been 8 Firestars in the hangar. It
wouldn't be a stretch to say that most of the Firestars are there
because those people saw the performance of my fathers plane and just
had to get a Firestar themselves.
Now, I have around 500 hours in my firestar. This does not make me an
expert but I feel I have enough experience with the airplane to know its
flying characteristics. The Kolb is a wonderful airplane but as with
all airplanes, it has characteristics that need to be learned. I would
also say it's very possible that one Kolb may not perform exactly like
another Kolb of the same model due to building methods, pilot weight,
etc. With all that said, I'll tell you how my airplane flies.
(Please read everything I'm about to say before jumping on my case)
I believe the term "Kolb Drop" is really a tendency of not flying the
airplane to it's true flight characteristics. When the airspeed get's
slow enough or the angle of attack reaches that critical spot, a wing
will stop flying. Now I'll admit, I've had the airplane drop on me when
I wasn't expecting it. Was that the airplanes fault? Nope. I just had
to learn the characteristics of the airplane. I did know that it wasn't
my wing that was stalling but rather my stabilizer/elevator. Slow
airspeed, cord line change, angle of attack during landing, ground
effect, all play some small role. The solution at the time was to land
the airplane like it wanted to be landed which meant two point landings.
To me it actually felt like I had the nose pointed up high in the air
but videos would show my tail was still up in the air. I really thought
I had been making three points. Two point landings were very
comfortable but three points could still be achieved if I really worked
it and kept about 3,000 rpm's on landing. If I just landed two
pointers, there would never be a problem. (Please remember, this was my
Firestar... others may have no problems with three points)
Now for the interesting stuff. I had been reading about VG's and
figured, it probably would do no harm to at least test them. Wouldn't
it be great if you could take a wonderful flying airplane and somehow
make it even better? So I bought some VG's and installed them on the
wing and stabilizer. Before hand I had done some cruise speed test and
also side by side slow flight comparisons against my fathers Firestar 1.
He was always able to fly just a little slower than me but only by
about 2 mph. I'll come back to that comparison in a bit. With the VG's
on the airplane, I took off and really didn't notice anything. I then
applied full power and pulled the stick back. I wouldn't think a
Firestar would climb any steeper than it had before. After all, how can
one climb quicker than a home sick angel? Well, when you put on VG's,
that angel now has a fire under its butt and the only place to find a
bucket of water is in heaven. I then ran some cruise tests with a GPS.
My cruise speeds were unaffected. The next test was slow flight against
my fathers Firestar 1. I was now able to fly a couple a mph slower than
him, but only a few. So far, the climb rate was the only big
difference. I also did some stalls. Power off felt about the same but
the recovery was quicker. The power on stall was impressive. The
airplane didn't want to stall. It just wanted to mush a little and then
keep flying. Boy, the nose was high. The overall stall speed dropped
by about 4 mph. I was hoping for more. Now for the biggest difference.
Landings!!! I kept shooting landings and with each one kept pulling
more and more back stick. Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the
ground way before the mains touched. This could also be done at a
throttle setting very close to idle. Before, the elevator would stall
once you pulled the stick back past neutral (That was one of the things
I learned to avoid when landing before - it's also amazing how little
elevator deflection is needed to flare or even climb - take some video
and you'll be surprised when you can't see any movement on the elevator
- I digress)
The airplane now has some new flying characteristic that I had to learn.
The main thing is my landing speeds (once in ground effect) are much
slower than I could have landed before. The elevator is effective all
the way back. Why wouldn't anyone want to slow down their ground speed
during landing if they could? The Kolb is one of the best planes out
there without VG"s but WOW! With VG's... the difference cannot be put
into words.
I wanted my father to see what he thought of the VG's so he took my
airplane for a flight. He has over 800 hours in his Firestar and has
flown my airplane for many hours. When he landed, he just couldn't stop
talking about the positive effect the VG's had on the airplane. He was
very impressed. So impressed that he decided to put some on his
Firestar. He only placed them on the horizontal stabilizer and he
really didn't use that many. (Here's is a good tip - he purchased r/c
airplane wing skids that look just like VG's that can be made or bought.
They are very cheep but are a little thicker than VG's that can be
purchased) He was amazed at the difference it made to his landing
speeds and flare. It's really one of those things that has to be
experienced. We then did the side by side slow flight comparison and he
was now flying at my speed. I believe if he added them to the wings he
might be able to fly a tiny bit slower, but probably not enough to make
a huge difference. The big difference is the stabilizer. If you can
keep it flying (applying downward force) at a slower airspeed, you can
keep the nose the airplane up and slow down.
So, here is my brief summary.
The "Kolb Drop" is a result of the pilot not flying the airplane like it
should be in it's current configuration. I did it until I learned
better.
VG's added to the stabilizer made a tremendous difference.
The Kolb Firestar is a wonderful airplane just as it is. It's hard to
believe but it can be better with VG's. VG's would probably improve any
airplane when properly installed.
For those of you that don't have a Firestar (or other Kolb aircraft),
get one.
For those of you that already have one of the wonderful airplanes from
the Kolb company, place some VG's on your stabilizer. (and wing if you
really want)
About the videos. Most of the flying in the Firestar 1 and 2 video is
without VG's. All of the other videos show the airplane with VG's.
Long live KOLB!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
My wife and I watched the videos on the Kolb website, and she was absolutely
amazed at the gentle, slow handling characteristics. She was under the impression
they had to be landed at a much higher speed and longer roll-out, similar
to the Cessna 150 she had flown. I think the videos are a great selling point
for the factory. Slow flight videos are much more impressive to a beginner than
a fast fly-by, and a great confidence builder to someone who has never tried
it. The repeated slow landings seem to show that the pilot was not even close
to a stall at landing. Seems to nullify the VG discussion until somebody gets
a tape measure out. Can anyone guess the actual touch-down speed on the slow
landings?
Bill S.
Firestar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
At 04:22 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote:
>Hello everyone!
>
>Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I
>decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully)
>with the VG discussion.
What he said -------ditto:
It's amazing how far I can stick the nose up without
the plane stalling.
I'm not trying to beat this to death, but there are very few things that
you can do to your plane that (1) doesn't do anything at all for the
performance - after
spending lots of time and money or (2) actually degrades the
performance of what you
were trying to do anyway. I've spent lots of $ for nothing several times.
I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for the
amount of time and money invested. And like Jeremy says it's not just
that you can fly slower,
it's "how well" you can fly slower. I fly my plane slow - a lot.
On a cross country trip, maybe you won't need them at all, but they
sure are fun to play with around the patch. I'm sure the buzzards & the geese
are glad I have them too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Morning Michael:
Thanks for the report and the video clips.
Where are you all located?
john h
mkIII
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being
discussed, I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36)
Long live KOLB!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Michael,
Thanks for the great report. Several years ago when I had a FS 1, I made and installed
VGs on the wing and got a few mph drop in stall speed but the stall was
sudden w/ VGs when it was more gentle w/o wing VGs. I never considered adding
them to the underside of the HS.
I now have a different and good bit heavier FS 1 that is under repair and won't
be flying again until summer. It flies somewhat differently from the first lighter
one. My current FS 1 seems to be limited by pitch control when landing,
much like you described. Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again,
as before, my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS.
Thanks again for your excellent report.
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165706#165706
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Thacker <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Can someone post the video clips again? Somehow they got away from me befo
re I got a chance to see them. ThanksGarySouderton,Pa.
From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.comTo: kolb-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-List
: Re: Firestar Videos and VG'sDate: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:55:03 -0600
Morning Michael:
Thanks for the report and the video clips.
Where are you all located?
john h
mkIII
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I a
m the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36)
Long live KOLB!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo
ur "fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
The videos are at
http://tinyurl.com/349uxp
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165712#165712
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Gary and the rest of you'ze guys,
Just go to The New Kolb website, click on Firestar II, then click on "videos".
These are inspirational to any Kolb wannabe, no doubt!!
Mike Welch
MkIII Cx
________________________________
From: gbthacker(at)hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:35:42 -0500
Can someone post the video clips again? Somehow they got away from me before I
got a chance to see them. Thanks
Gary
Souderton,Pa.
________________________________
From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:55:03 -0600
Morning Michael:
Thanks for the report and the video clips.
Where are you all located?
john h
mkIII
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the
pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36)
Long live KOLB!!!
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail-get your "fix".
Check it out.
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Thacker <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Thanks guysGarySouderton,Pa.> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and V
G's> From: riddletr(at)gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:52:59 -0800> To: k
iddletr@gmail.com>> > The videos are at> > http://tinyurl.com/349uxp> > ---
-----> Thom Riddle> N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL> N197BG FS1/447> ------------
--------> Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your
own common sense.> - Buddha> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http:/
========================> _
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts!-Play the word scramble challenge with sta
r power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja
n
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fly the plane!! |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote:
> John, and group of Kolb Guys,
>
> I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am building
an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft.
>
> Mike Welch
> Kolb MkIII
>
Yep, these videos are pretty accurate renditions of how the firestar flies. My
old FSII was stately like this in calm weather and still landed pretty slow even
at my current 6300' MSL altitude.
You'll find the plane to be a pretty ordinary handler with no surprises and no
tendency to "quit" more or less than any other light a/c of similar type.
Miss my old one bad......
LS
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/[/quote]
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165737#165737
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
> As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat
dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the
more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG
denial" would stand to benefit most from the research... Volunteers?
>
>
> dedicated beauford
Beauford:
About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG thingy.
Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts.
BTW: Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.
john h - Patiently waiting for some new developments. Is George Alexander
part of your Think Tank?
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
> Hi, I could not navigate to the video at the Kolb site.
?
>
> Dave
http://www.kolbsport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=77
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often
overlooked>>
Beautiful, Beauford,
It occurs to me that there me a connection here between Kolb Drop and
Brewers Droop. I do not know if this malady affects those in the US but in
the UK it is a well known phenomenen which manifests irself in a certain
body organ and is caused by the uninhibited consumption of beer.
Just a thought
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com> |
On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:42 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> Beauford:
>
> About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG
> thingy.
>
> Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts.
>
> BTW: Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.
>
> john h - Patiently waiting for some new developments. Is George
> Alexander part of your Think Tank?
> mkIII
Hey,
What I'd like to know is how those VGs keep him from torching his
mic muff with that huge after burner?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Dana Hague wrote:
>
> At 04:41 AM 2/21/2008, johnjoyes wrote:
>
>> Because of the speed, this could not be a stall.
>
> Not saying it's what happened, but stall is a function of AOA, not speed.
>
>> I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my
>> experience, the place to put them first is on the underside of the
>> tailplane just ahead of the elevator.
>
> If the tailplane had stalled, that might have helped. But VG's on
> the tail won't keep the wing from stalling.
>
> -Dana
> --
> Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?
Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, either
from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail stall. If it
happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on its existing path
without increasing its angle of attack. Remember, the elevator is trying
to push the tail down. If that doesn't happen, the wing's angle of
attack won't increase.
A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out of
stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared adequately. The
fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's 'upside down' in
the stab. Slightly different technique to achieve the same thing as the
bottom side VG trick: keep the air attached to the low-pressure side of
the control surface.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_177
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
wherein yer belly dun loped >>
Hi Bob,
it wasn`t exactly yer belly loping that I had in mind, but close.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Alternate 4 cycle engines |
Kolb guys,
Seeing as how we've managed to "kick a dead horse" regarding VGs, so far beyond
recognition, that our horse is barely recognizable as a former farm animal, I
thought I'd pass along a recent email that was sent to the FlyGEO (engines) Yahoo!
Group. Obviously, this guy flies a 2 person trike.
NOTE: Things in brackets "{{ }}" are where I've done the calculations and comments
for you. The G10T refers to the GEO 3 cyl 1.0L turbo. THIS IS NOT MY EMAIL,
IT WAS SENT TO OUR GROUP.
This COPY and PASTED EMAIL is as follows:
"Well I have the Air Creation with the GEO G10T. I had the 582 previously.
Performance is much better especially at "all up" weight.
My base is 5500ft MSL (Normal DA of around 7500-8200!!! )
Climb rate at MTOW is better than the 582 was one up!
Using cruise control and taking off at around 4500-4800rpm gives
around 650fpm (my 582's WOT). I also get around 5 liters/hr {{1.3 gal/hr}} (when
flying with
around 30liters {{7.9 gallons}} of fuel. With a full tank the fuel is around 6-7
liters/hr {{1.6 to 1.8 gal/hr}}and my trike cruises at about 58mph hand off.
I'm totally happy with the engine as the fuel consumption is so low I
can almost do almost 750 miles (1200km) with one normal sized tank
(60l) {{19.8 gallons}}! Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than
a
912S!
For anyone flying from a high altitude I will not hessitate to
recommend Vassili's product. I will try the G13 {{GEO's smallest 4 cylinder}}
next but for now I'm happy to have the Turbo on the 1.0 liter 3 cylinder.
At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the
limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of 14.7 psi
boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO engine at virtually
DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to almost 120 HP & 116
ft/lbs!!!}}
I have had some minor things to sort out but mostly as I couldn't copy
anyones engine mount due to my boot / luggage area. The engine has a
rough spot at 1500. Cruise is 3600rpm one up @ 5l/h {{1.3 US Gal}} +-50%
throttle.
My trike is not a light trike either, it weighs 225kg {{ 496 lbs.}} empty still
less
than a 912. At idle the gearbox is louder than a 912 and in flight the
engine has a more throaty sound. Bystanders say it sounds like a V8
Chevy ;).
The only negative comment I've had is it's size looks big compared to
a rotax. From what I've seen the size is misleading as it's not heavy
even though it looks big.
For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits
inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude.
I will post pics soon and be glad to answer any questions."
END OF HIS EMAIL.
It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that the fuel
consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!! Supposedly
cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less than the
2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl.
Just thought I'd pass this along.......
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternate 4 cycle engines |
Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a
> 912S!
>
> At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the
> limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of
> 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO
> engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to
> almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}}
>
> For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits
> inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude.
> It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that
the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!!
Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less
than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl.
>
> Mike Welch
Mike W:
Sounds almost too good to be true.
How does he keep up with the demand for engines?
With half or less fuel burn and producing more power that the 912ULS, that
is a hard to beat combination.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Alternate 4 cycle engines |
John and others,
We shall soon see. It has ALWAYS been my understanding the fuel burn for the
1.0L 3 cyl. GEo engine is around 2.25 gal/hr at cruise. This is the normally
aspirated engine, producing 62 HP, and around 58 ftlb of torque. From what I
am lead to believe, the N.A. (normally aspirated) engine puts out the performance
figures on par with a 582. I'm just going by what I'm told. I haven't got
the in-flight data to back anything up. Without first hand knowledge, I don't
testify to anything. But I guess there may be some that say they do have
the data.
(This guy that wrote that email??)
GEO Metros (and Japanese Econ-boxes in general) have always been known for their
ability to squeeze the crap out a gallon of petrol. Racing down the Interstate
at 70 mph in an 1800 lb car, and getting 50 mpg must equate to something
that is efficient. How that can actually cross over into an aircraft engine
has yet to be seen by me. (Actually, I've had my GEO engine/Ivo prop mounted
and running years ago, but not flying yet.)
(Besides, John, is it remotely possible I might be trying to just change the
"subject de jour" (VGs)?)
Anyone flying a GEO that would care to chime in??? Bob? Vic in Sac? Anybody?
Anybody??
Mike Welch
MkIII
> From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Alternate 4 cycle engines
> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:20:19 -0600
>
>
> Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a
>> 912S!
>>
>> At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the
>> limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of
>> 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO
>> engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to
>> almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}}
>>
>
>> For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits
>> inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude.
>
>
>> It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that
> the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!!
> Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less
> than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl.
>>
>> Mike Welch
>
>
> Mike W:
>
> Sounds almost too good to be true.
>
> How does he keep up with the demand for engines?
>
> With half or less fuel burn and producing more power that the 912ULS, that
> is a hard to beat combination.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | re: alternate 4 cycle engines |
I can't verify as to the accuracy but this is the chart that has been
used for comparison
between the 582 and the G10 Suzuki.
I think Richard Swiderski has this on his web site too.
(Has anyone heard from him lately?)
scroll down for the HP chart.
Scan2