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August 12, 2009 - August 19, 2009

>> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 12, 2009
has this problem been solved yet? -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257408#257408 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2009
Subject: Re: W/B For MK III How Much Weight on Your Tialwheel ???
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Mike, Never measured it on the ground but set up for W & B it's 86 lb. with the old tail wheel. I'll do another on Friday and give you the results with a stock Kolb on shortened gear leg. Rick On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 9:31 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > I want to compare the weight and balance of my MK III against some > others... How much weight do you have on the tailwheel when sitting on the > gear, and how much when you put it in flight attitude ? Did anyone have to > add weight anywhere, or move anything to get the weight and balance within > limits ? > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have > !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257236#257236 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Date: Aug 12, 2009
To John: something you said got my twisted little mind to working: ... "3-Required the wings be rigged with more angle of attack so we could take off and land in a nearly level attitude, and to prevent the tail from sagging to the extreme when doing slow flight. It also slows the cruise speed because of additional drag of pulling the tailboom through the air sideways. The Sling Shot will really sag in the tail when slowed down because is has a lot less incidence than the MKIII and FS. john h mkIII" Hmmm - so I went out to the hangar and looked at how the bottom of the root rib aligns with the frame that you attach the center section lower fabric to, which is (more or less) aligned with the underside of the wing. Mine has always been misaligned, the rear lines up, the front, not so much. The wing has too great an angle of attack to line up with the front part of the framework, it is about 5/8" too high. And it is built exactly to plans. (At least in this area...) So I gets to thinking - "What if I were to drill a new hole in each root rib tang about 5/8" lower and drop the angle of incidence of each wing until it lines up with the lower center section? That would take about 2.5-3 degrees of incidence out of the wings, and maybe pick up a bit of cruise speed? Would need to retrim the elevators, reshim the angle of the motor mounts, etc, but might be worth the hassle. Takeoff runs might be a bit different, landings too, but overall... Hmmm..." Now look what you've done... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257418#257418 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing
Date: Aug 13, 2009
> So I gets to thinking - "What if I were to drill a new hole in each root rib tang about 5/8" lower and drop the angle of incidence of each wing until it lines up with the lower center section? That would take about 2.5-3 degrees of incidence out of the wings, and maybe pick up a bit of cruise speed? Would need to retrim the elevators, reshim the angle of the motor mounts, etc, but might be worth the hassle. Takeoff runs might be a bit different, landings too, but overall... Hmmm..." > > Now look what you've done... > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Rev: I would have taken some incidence out of my wings a long time ago, but it would have required too many other changes. I wasn't willing to make all the other changes required for a couple mph. Gary Haley took some incidence out of his MKIII wings when he rebuilt it a couple years ago. Speed increase was not significant. Decreasing incidence will also increase dihedral, unless lift struts are shortened accordingly. Will also require changing the 3 point stance of the MKIII, raising the nose to increase angle of attack and allow the aircraft to rotate on take off. Raising the nose will also improve 3 point landing capability. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Richard, if you still have the aluminum legs you may be in for a somewhat longer ground roll during takeoff. I got as far as installing the longer legs but got sidetracked by fuel flow/pressure problems and life in general. A stock MkIII windshield and cabin configuration might not see much change. Mostly because the curvature of the window allows most of the air to slip around and provide more lift at the wing root bottoms. There would be a slight increase in lift under the nose which would reduce down force requirement at the tail. Your cabin configuration is another matter. Not much down force on your window. Mine has a wide flat window that slips a lot of air up and over, around the engine to the prop. Very little is diverted to underside wing lift. The down force on the nose is considerable. I should benefit from an incidence more like the Xtra. One of these days. BB On 12, Aug 2009, at 10:58 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > To John: something you said got my twisted little mind to working: ... > "3-Required the wings be rigged with more angle of attack so we > could take off and land in a nearly level attitude, and to prevent > the tail from sagging to the extreme when doing slow flight. It > also slows the cruise speed because of additional drag of pulling > the tailboom through the air sideways. The Sling Shot will really > sag in the tail when slowed down because is has a lot less > incidence than the MKIII and FS. > > john h > mkIII" > > Hmmm - so I went out to the hangar and looked at how the bottom of > the root rib aligns with the frame that you attach the center > section lower fabric to, which is (more or less) aligned with the > underside of the wing. Mine has always been misaligned, the rear > lines up, the front, not so much. The wing has too great an angle > of attack to line up with the front part of the framework, it is > about 5/8" too high. And it is built exactly to plans. (At least in > this area...) > > So I gets to thinking - "What if I were to drill a new hole in each > root rib tang about 5/8" lower and drop the angle of incidence of > each wing until it lines up with the lower center section? That > would take about 2.5-3 degrees of incidence out of the wings, and > maybe pick up a bit of cruise speed? Would need to retrim the > elevators, reshim the angle of the motor mounts, etc, but might be > worth the hassle. Takeoff runs might be a bit different, landings > too, but overall... Hmmm..." > > Now look what you've done... > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257418#257418 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Need advice on instruments
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Nothing helped! It still read 20 mph slow ! I finally gave in and bought a Winter ASI as John H. suggested.>> Hi, did youj also fit the pitot at the base of the starboard wing strut, where John told me he has his fitted. If not. where? Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need advice on instruments
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
[quote="pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com"]Nothing helped! It still read 20 mph slow ! I finally gave in and bought a Winter ASI as John H. suggested.>> Hi, did youj also fit the pitot at the base of the starboard wing strut, where John told me he has his fitted. If not. where? Pat > [b] For what it's worth, my FSII had the pitot sticking right out of the front of the nosecone. A piece of aluminum tubing stuck out about 6" or so to get the end out of the sort of compressed area right in front of it. It seemed to work pretty well, I tried to get an idea of where it was with the GPS but as others have said, that's a very error-prone method of gauging airspeed so I don't know how accurate the ASI ended up being. After a while I hardly used it anyway so never worked on it that hard but that seemed like a good location for the pitot (except that running into it on a walkaround was very easy so you want a breakaway design for that location).... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257477#257477 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Need advice on instruments
Date: Aug 13, 2009
running into it on a walkaround was very easy so you want a breakaway design for that location)...>> Hi, i had the pitot fitted unerneath the noce cone on my Xtra and wiped it off in long grass, twice. Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
rlaird wrote: > > > Then I installed a Facet pump. > > Thanks for everyone's suggestions... I'll let you know in a week or so if the problem stays gone! > > -- RObert > > That Facet pump is the best thing you could have possibly done. The little pulse pump that is standard for the 447 is barely up to the job of keeping fuel to the engine. The first time there is the slightest degradation of performance of the pulse pump, or slightest restriction in filter, or fuel system in any way the engine will be starved of fuel. It is crazy to depend on such a marginal pump to keep your engine running when the Facet pump is so cheap, easy to install, and reduces your chance of an engine failure by a considerable amount. It is even worse to screw around with squeeze bulbs that frequently break and can block the fuel system when a very reliable facet pump can easily take its place for priming, and serves as a really good backup in flight also. The Facet pump has enough capacity to keep enough fuel flow to the engine even if something else is not quite perfect. The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php This filter is designed to be cleaned and will last forever. At 10 microns, it will far outperform any paper or disposable filter out there. This filter has two screens inside, a coarse trapping larger debris and keeping the the 10 micron screen from clogging. The filter screen has a large amount of surface area and it would take a lot of abuse and neglect to cause a flow restriction in this filter, in other words, with this filter your fuel system will stay clean long after the cheap filters most people use have failed. Over time, this filter pays for itself, because you just clean it instead of replacing it. Doing these two items can save you many headaches and will very probably save a forced landing one day. According to EAA, half of all engine failures in experimental airplanes are caused by the fuel system, doing these two things goes a long ways towards improving your odds. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257489#257489 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
undoctor wrote: > > That's not the fault of the witness, but of the reporter, whose responsibility is to get and > report facts, which may be gleaned from eyewitness accounts, recognizing that they likely > aren't experts. > > Dave Kulp > Bethlehem, PA > FireFly 11DMK > > I totally agree with Dave, as I said before, you just can not rely on some non pilot's account that the plane was doing " Tricks ". If Brad had a control problem, his recovery attempts would very well look like " Tricks ". I did not see any knowledgeable witness describe any specific maneuvers in any of the reports I read. If someone has more information on this accident please post a link to it. When you read the word " Tricks ", that is obviously a statement from someone that has no clue as to what they are talking about, and should raise a big red flag even for even the slowest pilot here on the forum. I am not saying that Brad did not perform any aerobatic types of maneuvers outside the flight parameters of his Kolb, but I would not dare to make that judgment until I talked to the people at the airport that knew Brad, flew with him, and would know how conservative, or how crazy he was while flying his Kolb. I think we owe Brad the consideration of not trashing his reputation by saying he was irresponsible until we have more evidence. As far as the chute, going backwards would more likely keep it out of the prop on a pusher if the chute was mounted on top of the cage as they are in most MK III's. I think the standard chute installation would get tangled in the prop in level and controlled flight if it were pulled with the engine running. This is something for us all to remember. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257492#257492 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B For MK III How Much Weight on Your Tialwheel ???
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Thanks Rick ! Any other tailwheel weights would be appreciated.. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257493#257493 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
I had a similar problem a few years back on my 447. I landed and took off the float bowl. It was a small piece of grass at the bottom. I dumped it and took off without any problems after that. How did the grass get in there? Occasionally I take off the bowl off to see what it looks like on the inside. Since I fly from a grass strip, a piece of grass must have been in back, on the outside, that I didn't see and got in. Now, I wipe down the outside of the bowl before taking it off. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257494#257494 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2009
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
- I read the description of the manuevers, and a thought occurred to me. - Is it possible for the elevator to get stuck in the up position in his model?--I think it was a Mark IIIx.- On my old Firestar, I put a hair pin cotter on the wingnut that holds the elevator.- It tangled with somet hing, and got bent.- It was too long.- Is there anything front or rear that could do that?- What would you do if the elevator somehow did get st uck up? - ------------------------- ----------------------Bill Sull ivan ------------------------- --------------------- Windsor Loc ks, Ct. ------------------------- --------------------- FS 447 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Need advice on instruments
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Patrick: Ed D is using a venturi operated Winter ASI. No pitot tube. john h mkIII Nothing helped! It still read 20 mph slow ! I finally gave in and bought a Winter ASI as John H. suggested.>> Hi, did youj also fit the pitot at the base of the starboard wing strut, where John told me he has his fitted. If not. where? Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Need advice on instruments
At 10:55 AM 8/13/2009, lucien wrote: >For what it's worth, my FSII had the pitot sticking right out of the front >of the nosecone. A piece of aluminum tubing stuck out about 6" or so to >get the end out of the sort of compressed area right in front of it. Remember that it's not just the location of the pitot but also the location of the static pressure source. When I bought my UltraStar, the pitot location was OK but the static was simply inside the instrument pod... when I moved my foot the indication would change a lot. I ended up building a pitot/static tube with four radial holes on an outer concentric tube which solved that problem, but it's still not right. Seems about right at low speeds, but it reads about 10mph slow at cruise (as near as I can tell by averaging GPS speed upwind and downwind). Of course I have no idea if the instrument itself is accurate; one day I'll have to test it with a manometer. -Dana -- If God took acid, would He see people? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
At 11:54 AM 8/13/2009, JetPilot wrote: >I totally agree with Dave, as I said before, you just can not rely on some >non pilot's account... Not if they're talking to a non pilot reporter... but somewhere I read that in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness... because their perception is influenced by that they think is happening. Accident investigators say that a video camera, naturally, is the best witness. An intelligent child is second best, because they describe what they see without trying to interpret it. A non pilot adult is third, and a pilot is the worst. -Dana -- If God took acid, would He see people? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
> > >I totally agree with Dave, as I said before, you just can not rely on some non pilot's account that the plane was doing " Tricks ". If Brad had a control problem, his recovery attempts would very well look like " Tricks ". I did not see any knowledgeable witness describe any specific maneuvers in any of the reports I read. If someone has more information on this accident please post a link to it. When you read the word " Tricks ", that is obviously a statement from someone that has no clue as to what they are talking about, and should raise a big red flag even for even the slowest pilot here on the forum. > >I am not saying that Brad did not perform any aerobatic types of maneuvers outside the flight parameters of his Kolb, but I would not dare to make that judgment until I talked to the people at the airport that knew Brad, flew with him, and would know how conservative, or how crazy he was while flying his Kolb. I think we owe Brad the consideration of not trashing his reputation by saying he was irresponsible until we have more evidence. > Mike, At least there was someone who saw what happened. Even a non-pilot can observe what appears to be outside the normal operation for aircraft that they normally see pass over. There is no need for further data gathering due to the fact that Brad Stump is no longer with us. It is remarkable how many "good pilots" end up dead, even those with many hours. Since the Kolb designs are very robust, it makes one wonder why one should fall out of the sky? If there was no mechanical failure, the only cause for such a case is poor pilot risk management. There have been several examples of this on the list which leads back to the fact that altitude is your friend if you want to fly slow or practice stalls, spins, etc, and speed is your friend if you are close to the ground. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
JetPilot wrote: > > That Facet pump is the best thing you could have possibly done. The little pulse pump that is standard for the 447 is barely up to the job of keeping fuel to the engine. The first time there is the slightest degradation of performance of the pulse pump, or slightest restriction in filter, or fuel system in any way the engine will be starved of fuel. It is crazy to depend on such a marginal pump to keep your engine running when the Facet pump is so cheap, easy to install, and reduces your chance of an engine failure by a considerable amount. It is even worse to screw around with squeeze bulbs that frequently break and can block the fuel system when a very reliable facet pump can easily take its place for priming, and serves as a really good backup in flight also. The Facet pump has enough capacity to keep enough fuel flow to the engine even if something else is not quite perfect. > > The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php > > This filter is designed to be cleaned and will last forever. At 10 microns, it will far outperform any paper or disposable filter out there. This filter has two screens inside, a coarse trapping larger debris and keeping the the 10 micron screen from clogging. The filter screen has a large amount of surface area and it would take a lot of abuse and neglect to cause a flow restriction in this filter, in other words, with this filter your fuel system will stay clean long after the cheap filters most people use have failed. Over time, this filter pays for itself, because you just clean it instead of replacing it. > > Doing these two items can save you many headaches and will very probably save a forced landing one day. According to EAA, half of all engine failures in experimental airplanes are caused by the fuel system, doing these two things goes a long ways towards improving your odds. > > Mike A couple of nits real quick.... The mikuni pneumatic pumps actually offer very good fuel draw, even in cases like the Kolb with the tank well below the engine. They tend to get a bad rap because of certain installation errors: - incorrect pulse line length. Far and away this is the most common (and dangerous) error - I've seen all kinds of mile-long pulse lines accomodating incorrect installation methods by various manufacturers. Often there's not a very pretty place to put the pump so that it's near enough to the engine to allow a short pulse line. Sometimes it's simply not known that the line has to be a foot or less regardless of what material is used. Too long of a pulse line dangerously weakens the action of the pump. - putting drag-inducing stuff in the vacuum side of the line like fuel bulbs and, yes, electric pumps ;). The facet pump does introduce significant drag on the fuel when it's turned off (should be installed on the pressure side of the pneumatic if you must have an electric pump). The squeeze bulbs do as well, tho not quite as bad as the electric pumps. It's generally best to eliminate both, so you have a fully freely flowing fuel line on both ends of the pneumatic. I've run the mikuni pneumatics for about a decade and never had a moment's trouble with fuel draw, even on my FSII with the tank a long ways below the carburettors. But the installation has to be correct to avoid trouble. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257517#257517 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 13, 2009
From: "Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>
"Jean Bilodeau" asked: << Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install. >> Jean, and Kolb Friends - It seems to me that an ignition-kill switch built in to the BRS handle may not be of benefit, as it would take too long for the engine to spool-down. The pyrotechnic would fire, the 'chute comes out at 100 feet per second, yet the prop would still be spinning at nearly the same instantaneous rate as what it was when the handle was pulled. I believe the safe BRS fire sequence would be: 1) Recognize the emergency, 2) Kill the ignition, 3) Wait a second or two, then 4) Pull the BRS handle. Number three will be difficult to do, especially in an emergency. But you want the engine to be stopped (or nearly so) before the BRS fires. Otherwise, the 'chute may end up getting tangled in the spinning prop, as Brad's did. On my Mark-3, I have bright, red spots painted on my instrument panel directly above the two ignition toggle switches to aid in visualizing which direction to flip those switches to "OFF," if the unthinkable situation ever happens. As John H has recommended several times on this List, it's good practice to sit in the pilot's seat of your Kolb and "dry run" this sequence of procedures on the ground before each flight. That way it will come automatically if/when the REAL emergency should happen. My thoughts and prayers go out to Brad's family. Dennis Kirby Mark-III, 912ul, "Magic Bike" Cedar Crest, NM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Need advice on instruments
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Ed D is using a venturi operated Winter ASI. No pitot tube.>> Thanks John, I may look into that. I used a Winter vario on my glider years ago and it gave good service Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 13, 2009
but somewhere I read that in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness.>> During the war I saw an Albemarle pile in. It was a twin engine medium bomber that wasn`t up to the job and it was downgraded to Horsa glider tugging. I saw the tug and glider climb out of a local field reach about1500/2000ft and the glider got out of position, pulled the tugs tail to the side. This was enough to stall the tugs inside wing and it spun straight in. The glider landed nearby and all the men rushed out but there was nothing that could be done as the plane exploded in flames on hitting the ground. Eventually an RAF investigation Officer visited me at my home. I was the only one who had noticed that the tug pilot had ditched the tow rope. This was crucial as it meant that the tug pilot realised what was happening before the glider pilot. I was not a pilot at that time but like all kids during the war I was interested in planes. Sort of bears out the comment that a schoolboy observer might be the best witness. Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: W/B For MK III How Much Weight on Your Tialwheel ???
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Any other tailwheel weights would be appreciated.>> my xtra with jabiru 2200. right wheel 109 kg left wheel 110 tail wheel 30.2 empty weight 249.2 Total weight allowed 429Kg Its late and I can`t be bothered to do the conversion to lbs Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: W/B For MK III How Much Weight on Your Tialwheel ???
Date: Aug 13, 2009
you stuck us with those measures and then abandoned us. -turncoat. BB On 13, Aug 2009, at 4:42 PM, pj.ladd wrote: > > Any other tailwheel weights would be appreciated.>> > > my xtra with jabiru 2200. > > right wheel 109 kg > left wheel 110 > tail wheel 30.2 > > empty weight 249.2 > > Total weight allowed 429Kg > > Its late and I can`t be bothered to do the conversion to lbs > > Pat > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
I've flown with the Mikuni pumps for 22 years and the only problem I've seen was when I replaced the diaphragm with one that was an aftermarket part that wasn't like the original. It ran rough and I replaced the pump. I found it had been creased and was leaking fuel out the weep hole. If you think the single Mikuni pump is marginal, then use a double Mikuni and tie the outputs together. This is what I have on my 447. Never use fuel line for the pulse line. I use auto fuel line. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257557#257557 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need advice on instruments
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Dana wrote: > > Remember that it's not just the location of the pitot but also the location > of the static pressure source. When I bought my UltraStar, the pitot > location was OK but the static was simply inside the instrument pod... when > I moved my foot the indication would change a lot. > > I ended up building a pitot/static tube with four radial holes on an outer > concentric tube which solved that problem, but it's still not right. Seems > about right at low speeds, but it reads about 10mph slow at cruise (as near > as I can tell by averaging GPS speed upwind and downwind). Of course I > have no idea if the instrument itself is accurate; one day I'll have to > test it with a manometer. > > -Dana > -- > If God took acid, would He see people? Er what static source..... ;)..... Good thing I didn't use it for much.... But yes you're quite right. I remember my wrist altimeter being off for similar reasons when I tried it in my titan. It was usually fairly close in my trike out in the wind tho.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257561#257561 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Ralph B wrote: > I've flown with the Mikuni pumps for 22 years and the only problem I've seen was when I replaced the diaphragm with one that was an aftermarket part that wasn't like the original. It ran rough and I replaced the pump. I found it had been creased and was leaking fuel out the weep hole. > > If you think the single Mikuni pump is marginal, then use a dual Mikuni and tie the outputs together. This is what I have on my 447. > > Never use fuel line for the pulse line. I use single-walled auto fuel line. It's very rigid and won't collapse. Some guys use pneumatic line, which is good too. > > Ralph B The real issue with the pulse line isn't so much the sturdiness of the walls of the line (tho you generally only want to use purpose-made pulse line anyway), it's the compliance of the air column inside the line. Air compresses as we all know, so when you have more air in the column, the easier it compresses. Because of that, less energy from the pulse output on the motor gets transmitted to the pump. After a certain length, even if the line is made of solid steel, too much of the pulse energy gets absorbed by the air column in the line and too little is left over to drive the pump. It's a very simple thing to overlook but such a horribly dangerous mistake to make. A foot or less always, never longer than a foot. The single mikuni pump will work fine in virtually all normal situations with a single carb engine. For dual carb you do want the higher volume pump. Still I always strongly preferred nothing in the vacuum end of the fuel line but a filter and that was it. No squeeze bulbs, extra pumps, etc., that can introduce drag. Once you take them out you may find you never needed them in the first place. I never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those pumps. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257572#257572 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 13, 2009
> Still I always strongly preferred nothing in the vacuum end of the fuel line but a filter and that was it. No squeeze bulbs, extra pumps, etc., that can introduce drag. Once you take them out you may find you never needed them in the first place. I never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those pumps. > > LS There is no way to convert years to actual time of operation of an aircraft, or any other piece of machinery. That's why they install hour meters, or like we did in Army Aviation, log the flight in the aircraft log book. If I tell you I have been flying more than 40 years, that doesn't tell you how much flight experience I have. If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours. Who knows? john h mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
John Hauck wrote: > > > If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those > pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours. Who knows? > > john h > mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I have with them and that's already too many times. You're free to believe what you want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go for it. Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify what I've told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke fliers. If you think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm done telling it to you. Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience and advice elsewhere. I'll take mine elsewhere also. I'm done with you, and done with the list. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257605#257605 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 13, 2009
>> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those >> pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours. Who knows? >> >> john h >> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. > > > Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I have with > them and that's already too many times. You're free to believe what you > want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go for it. > > Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify what I've > told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke fliers. If you > think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm done telling it to you. > Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience and advice elsewhere. I'll take > mine elsewhere also. > > I'm done with you, and done with the list. > > LS No one is questioning your experience, but 10 years is not relative when it comes to operating an engine. If you want to impress the Kolb List with your experience, then you need to express it in hours, not years. I have no desire to verify your experience, but it would help if you express it so we can understand it. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2009
Lucien, please don't leave as you add quite a bit to this list. John H may have been referring to me as I say that I have 22 years flying, but have not listed my hours. Ralph B 22 years flying 960 hours -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257609#257609 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Oldman" <aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Boys do not throw the toys out of the cot. You are all very interesting folk and contribute a lot. Your input may just save someones butt" if it has not already done so" I only have 400hrs with 447 and 503s and have all the nastys like outboard prime bulbs , by passes and such, and while I respect the opinion of those that oppose these things ,they have served me well.The reasons they are not considered good practice do focus me some what when doing pre flight checks, so while I still use these things ,the reasons not to, put on this list have at least brought there failings to my attention and I am now better informed and operate accordingly.Being prepared and for warned is a good thing. 4 or 40,000 hours we are still all learning . keep the information flowing . In this way the Kolbs we all on this list love to fly will serve us well for many years to come. Downunder MK111c 300hrs in Kolbs Some more hrs in other things { stay safe up there } As my instructor used to say "in god we trust, everything else we check twice" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:26 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 447 problem > > > >> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of > those >>> pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours. Who knows? >>> >>> john h >>> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. >> >> >> Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I have with >> them and that's already too many times. You're free to believe what you >> want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go for it. >> >> Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify what I've >> told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke fliers. If you >> think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm done telling it to >> you. Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience and advice elsewhere. I'll >> take mine elsewhere also. >> >> I'm done with you, and done with the list. >> >> LS > > > No one is questioning your experience, but 10 years is not relative when > it comes to operating an engine. If you want to impress the Kolb List > with your experience, then you need to express it in hours, not years. > > I have no desire to verify your experience, but it would help if you > express it so we can understand it. > > john h > mkIII > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Hi Tony Oldman, Is `down under` Oz or NZ? If in NZ, where are you? I have taken a house on the beach in Russel in the Bay of Islands for all of Feb next year and if you happen to be in that area I would like to make contact. Cheers Pat in the UK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Oldman" <aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
NZ ,South Island ,Timaru. You will like Russel. NZs first capital. Treaty of Waitangi [ our founding document } was signed not far from Russel. We are still trying to work out what it actualy means. Keeps lawyers and politicians gainfully employed . If you find you way this far South I will definatly take the time to meet up . Feb will be a all on month.Boating on lake Benmore and vintage car stuff to do ,can always fit some Kolb flying in as well. Regards Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re problem > > Hi Tony Oldman, > > Is `down under` Oz or NZ? If in NZ, where are you? > > I have taken a house on the beach in Russel in the Bay of Islands for all > of Feb next year and if you happen to be in that area I would like to make > contact. > > Cheers > > Pat in the UK > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
NZ ,South Island ,Timaru Hi Tony, We have been to NZ four or five times touring. Flown gliders at Omarama. Flown out of Queenstown to Milford Sound. Been to Wanaka, unfortunately not during the Wings over Wanaka but I had a look around the workshops there. This time, and I think I am getting to old to make another long distance trip, we decided to stay in one place. If I could put the clock back I would have emigrated to NZ 40 years ago. Cheers Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Lucien, I've enjoyed reading your comments, and profited from them too. I'd be very sorry to see an experienced pilot like yourself go, as would many others on the List. Your inputs have always been well- informed, well thought out, good, and valuable (and I can't say that for some of the others posted). No one's challenging your information. John only pointed out that "years of operation" really doesn't tell us much, whereas "hours of operation" would be a good yardstick. I'm sure no insult was intended. Can't you be a little patient with us? Russ K not-yet-Kolber On Aug 13, 2009, at 11:08 PM, lucien wrote: > > > John Hauck wrote: >> >> >> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use >> of those >> pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours. Who knows? >> >> john h >> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. > > > Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I > have with them and that's already too many times. You're free to > believe what you want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go > for it. > > Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify > what I've told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke > fliers. If you think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm > done telling it to you. Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience > and advice elsewhere. I'll take mine elsewhere also. > > I'm done with you, and done with the list. > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257605#257605 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. To put things in perspective,,,, been told that cigarette smoke is 4 microns. Boyd Young ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Blumax008(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Subject: Re: 447 problem
In a message dated 8/14/2009 11:26:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung(at)brigham.net writes: The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce. This award winning high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable Filter is USA made, high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable superb flow filters. For those who want and appreciate quality, these high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable filter will take you to the highest level of filtration performance. Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A... "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?" ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2009
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
- A billet is a solid block of metal.- You machine away anything that d oesn't look like the finished product. - ------------------------- ------------------------ Bi ll Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------ Wi ndsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------ FS 447 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
> >>> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use >>> of those >>> pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours. Who knows? >>> >>> john h >>> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. >> Still waiting for the first mikuni pulse pump failure after flying with one for 267+ hours. I believe I am correct in that John's engine on his MKIII does not use a mikuni pulse pump so the year and flight hour totals he lists do not mean much to this discussion. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2009
From: Lanny Fetterman <donaho1(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Mikuni fuel pump failure
Hi all, Back when I was flying a Quicksilver MX, I had a fuel pump go south on me. It was a Mikuni rectangular pump. There are little flapper valves in that pump and one of the flappers folded under itself during flight. The 377 kept running, however, I could not climb or maintain altitude. I was slowly going down ( to my way of thinking SLOW is the best way to have a forced landing) I knew I couldn`t make it back to Numidia International ( a small grass strip in Numidia Pa.). So I chose a farmers field that was fresh cut straw, the bails were already picked up. I landed without incident and within 15 minutes had five or six people that saw me go down helping me take the MX apart for transport. I love it when a plan comes together. Lanny Fetterman FSII N598LF ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 14, 2009
> Still waiting for the first mikuni pulse pump failure after flying with one > for 267+ hours. I believe I am correct in that John's engine on his MKIII > does not use a mikuni pulse pump so the year and flight hour totals he > lists > do not mean much to this discussion. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H: The time in my signature block has was not intended to add anything to this discussion. However, had I only listed the years flown, that information would tell the reader absolute nothing about how long this airplane had been flying, other than it first flew 17 years ago. Was trying to get Lucien S to express experience with Mikuni fuel pumps in hours, rather than years. Gives me a better understanding of "use" and expected length of reliability. He may fly 100 hours or 1000 hours in 10 years. Hell, I don't know. I used single and double Mikunis on ULII02, 447, and 582, on my own Kolb aircraft, and have flown other factory aircraft a bit. My time in my own Kolb powered two strokes was a little over 1,300 hours. I only had a Mikuni fuel pump problem once in all that time, between 1984 and 1993. I bought a rebuild kit to carry with me on my flight to New England and Oshkosh in 1989. When I got to the Flight Farm at Monterey, NY, I decided to put the new diaphragm in because I would be flying in some bad country doing the New England States, and across Niagara Falls for the second year. Next flight I had an engine failure. Dug the old diaphragm out of the garbage can and reinstalled it. Made the rest of the flight to Oshkosh and back to Alabama on the old one. Leaf would not reimburse me for the cost of the kit. It was an after market no name kit from some unknown country. I assumed it was a Mikuni part. Live and learn. Last item I bought from LEAF. I've pulled fuel with Mikunis a pretty good distance. As far away as the bottom of a Ken Brock seat tank in my Firestar. Was also a good pull from the Ultrastar tanks under my knees to the pump behind my head on top of the engine. As far a Mikuni pulse pump, the UL/Lt Plane market is a very small piece of their market. I have a 35 year old Kubota diesel tractor that uses a Mikuni pulse pump that has been pumping for the last 35 years and more than 2500 hours. Never even think about it. Would be afraid to look at it now. ;-) Reliability, to me, of a Mikuni pulse pump is phenomenal. Probably one of the best systems available. john h mkIII - Sitting in the hanger collecting barn dust and bug/bird crap. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: > > > Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A... > > "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?" > > ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?... > > > The description is pretty self explanatory Billet = Billet refers to a cast semi finished product. It is also referred to as ingot, particularly for smaller sizes. A billet is typically cast to a rectangular, hexagonal or round cross section compatible with secondary processing, e.g. forging or milling. It can be produced either as coil or cut lengths. Ingots and billets are collectively known as bar stock. The filter case starts life as a billet piece of aluminum, and is machined to the proper shape. The aluminum filter Never breaks, cracks, or get soft due to ethanol or water. Stainless Steel mesh element also impervious to ethanol and water, and does a much better job of filtering than Paper for fiber ever will. I have two of these filters in two airplanes, my carb bowls are always so clean I could drink wine out of them if I wanted to :) The filter is expensive at 80 dollars, but its not as expensive as having an engine failure and off field landing with aircraft damage due to clogged or faulty cheap filter that can fail in any number of ways... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257699#257699 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 447 problem
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: > > > Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A... > > "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?" > > ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?... > > > The description is pretty self explanatory Billet = Billet refers to a cast semi finished product. It is also referred to as ingot, particularly for smaller sizes. A billet is typically cast to a rectangular, hexagonal or round cross section compatible with secondary processing, e.g. forging or milling. It can be produced either as coil or cut lengths. Ingots and billets are collectively known as bar stock. The filter case starts life as a billet piece of aluminum, and is machined to the proper shape. The aluminum filter Never breaks, cracks, or get soft due to ethanol or water. Stainless Steel mesh element also impervious to ethanol and water, and does a much better job of filtering than Paper for fiber ever will. I have two of these filters in two airplanes, my carb bowls are always so clean I could drink wine out of them if I wanted to :) The filter is expensive at 80 dollars, but its not as expensive as having an engine failure and off field landing with aircraft damage due to clogged or faulty cheap filter that can fail in any number of ways... http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257700#257700 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mikuni pump info
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
That is very good information Jim, This is exactly what I was talking about, the pulse pump is very limited, prone to failure, and I would not trust it alone to keep my plane in the air. Having the Facet pump is cheap, easy to do, and increases safety by a huge amount. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257701#257701 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Here is the NTSB Preliminary Accident Report on the Brad Stump Kolb MKIIIx accident. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 090809X12151&key=1 john h mkIII - Resting in the hanger with a lot of good hours on it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Even though the report is short, it has some very good information in it. From the description of the non pilot witness, maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. The fact that this was done three times and that the plane leveled out each time means that it was intentional. The flip over backwards and subsequent spin could very well happen in a badly executed hammerhead stall. John H, have you ever spun the MK III ? How many turns and what is it like ? I have seen Possums videos of spins in his Firestar, but the MK III being much heavier may be totally different in a spin. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257721#257721 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 14, 2009
> John H, have you ever spun the MK III ? How many turns and what is it like ? I have seen Possums videos of spins in his Firestar, but the MK III being much heavier may be totally different in a spin. > > Mike Mike B: I have no problem spinning my mkIII. Spins just like the Firestar and Ultrastar, but loses a little more altitude. They all like to spin nose low, almost a spiral. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Kmet" <jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 14, 2009
I`ve been lurking on this topic all week,,,, the common thread seems to be the witness report, & now, it is part of the official investigation prelim. Hard to disput the statement. Yes, witness reports can be misleading, but if I, or any pilot I know of, was having a control problem, managed to get the airplane going straight up,,,,,-, three times,,,,,,, would not have gotten to the third time before I shut down the power & pulled the red handle, if I was that out of control. I have spent 3 or 4 hours with Brad, & had no clue that as a pilot, might have been pushing the envelope. But that was also before his 1st flight in his plane. Think about this, 2 times, the plane was going straight up. Then a third. If you were "out of control", those 1st 2 times, with a passenger, would you have let it gone to that third time,,,, straight up, with a BRS??? Lets let this go,,, Please. Jim Kmet Obviously affected MK-3C 912 Cookeville, TN. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump > > Even though the report is short, it has some very good information in it. > From the description of the non pilot witness, maneuver sounds to me like > a hammerhead stall. The fact that this was done three times and that the > plane leveled out each time means that it was intentional. The flip over > backwards and subsequent spin could very well happen in a badly executed > hammerhead stall. > > John H, have you ever spun the MK III ? How many turns and what is it > like ? I have seen Possums videos of spins in his Firestar, but the MK > III being much heavier may be totally different in a spin. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257721#257721 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B For MK III How Much Weight on Your Tialwheel ???
From: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Hi Mike....I haven't forgotten you....I will get the figures tomorrow... Do you have VG's on the bottom of your horz stab?? And if you do...how many?? chris ambrose M3X/jab 48 + hrs N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257729#257729 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Jim, As a community it is important for us to do our best to understand this and every Kolb accident so that others can avoid the same fate. In any accident involving aviation, an investigation and this kind of discussion takes place and rightfully so, it saves lives. Given that you knew Brad makes it harder, but this is part of the process. My uncle was recently killed in a Sailplane setting an altitude record, and everyone in his sailplane club, including his family did all we could to figure out what caused the accident so that others flying sailplanes would not suffer the same fate. My uncle Dave was a very smart and nice guy that cared for his fellow flyers, I know without a doubt that he would have wanted us to figure out what happened and advise the flying community, as I am sure most pilots would. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257746#257746 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B For MK III How Much Weight on Your Tialwheel ???
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2009
Hi Chris, I never got around to putting the VG's on the bottom of my horizontal stabilizer. What VG's do on the horizontal stab is to increase the authority of the elevator, especially at slow speeds, but elevator authority is already so good on my Kolb that I have just never done it. My elevator is fairly light as it is, and the trim range is perfect. It would be interesting to try one day, but other things I want to do to my Kolb are more important to me right now. But just so that there is no confusion, putting VG's on the wings is the best thing by far I have ever done to my Kolb, it made a new plane out of it ! I look forward to your tailwheel weight, and if you ever do put VG's on the tail of your plane, I would love to hear about that also. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257747#257747 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. >> Dont you have any restrictions on airobatics in our sort of planes in the US. Strictly illegal here. Not to say it is never done of course Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Cowan" <tc1917(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 15, 2009
I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed the fact that you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any value on your advice. I would and do listen to the man with one hour flying as well as the man with ten thousand hours. Each has their own distinct idea of what happened, how to cure it and should be accorded the same attention. To insist a man has the ten thousand hours to have his advice honored is ludicrous. Never demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours has he flown. It might be two hours but experienced the same thing but has a different point of view that is valuable. This is the greatest of the lists out there for advice, information and stories but I think you all lose site of what it is really is. Ideas from EVERYONE. The Kolb aircraft is different from all others. It requires the input from ALL, not just a chosen few. Some of the advice from the chosen few has been grossly incorrect for times nowdays. Things change. Please elicit advice and information from everyone. Now, that filter for eighty bucks might be the cats meow but if you have hard fuel lines, black so you cannot see what is going through them, and a fuel filter you cannot see through, no glass or insight as to the condition of the fuel going to your carbs, you may experience the off field landings that you all brag about doing. If you are using ethanol fuel in a tank that is older, it WILL clean the tank and put all the sediment on the bottom for your pump to pick up. I have seen it happen several times, even on my motorcycle as of late. That stuff looks like rust, has a lot of lead and other additives in it and WILL stop up a microfilter. If you cannot see it before it does, you WILL be using your skills to survive. The good part is your tank will be nice and clean which will only matter if you and your toy survive. I will be using my sight glass filter and do check it all the time. It has really saved my life several times. Put your expensive filter on but you wont know when it is just close to being stopped up. My opinion. By the way, I only have a couple of thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as someone with ten thousand. Ted Cowan. Alabama Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 15, 2009
On the filter thing, I'm almost embarrassed to report my discovery. As you may remember I have been having mysterious fuel problems. -discolored, stale smelling gas, stuttering engine on climb out, float needle hanging at start. -well some good came of it, I changed the line over to the newer ethanol resistant stuff, Put a tee in for a temporary gauge. Every spring I put in a new plastic auto zone filter with a decent sized reservoir bottom. Don't buy the auto zone model made in china When I cut the bottom off I discovered the element flopping around and the cement (epoxy, asphalt, old chewing gum?) that was supposed to retain it had dried and crumbled and chunks were broken off. Obviously some had gone downstream to the pump and maybe the regulator. -ethanol is not our friend except when mixed with hops and malted barley. I have a metal housing filter in for temporary. I'll buy a good one. BB BTW, had a nice ride last evening. Seemed peppier with fuel getting into the float bowl :) On 15, Aug 2009, at 7:17 AM, Ted Cowan wrote: > > I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed > the fact that you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any > value on your advice. I would and do listen to the man with one > hour flying as well as the man with ten thousand hours. Each has > their own distinct idea of what happened, how to cure it and should > be accorded the same attention. To insist a man has the ten > thousand hours to have his advice honored is ludicrous. Never > demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours > has he flown. It might be two hours but experienced the same thing > but has a different point of view that is valuable. This is the > greatest of the lists out there for advice, information and stories > but I think you all lose site of what it is really is. Ideas from > EVERYONE. The Kolb aircraft is different from all others. It > requires the input from ALL, not just a chosen few. Some of the > advice from the chosen few has been grossly incorrect for times > nowdays. Things change. Please elicit advice and information from > everyone. Now, that filter for eighty bucks might be the cats > meow but if you have hard fuel lines, black so you cannot see what > is going through them, and a fuel filter you cannot see through, no > glass or insight as to the condition of the fuel going to your > carbs, you may experience the off field landings that you all brag > about doing. If you are using ethanol fuel in a tank that is > older, it WILL clean the tank and put all the sediment on the > bottom for your pump to pick up. I have seen it happen several > times, even on my motorcycle as of late. That stuff looks like > rust, has a lot of lead and other additives in it and WILL stop up > a microfilter. If you cannot see it before it does, you WILL be > using your skills to survive. The good part is your tank will be > nice and clean which will only matter if you and your toy survive. > I will be using my sight glass filter and do check it all the > time. It has really saved my life several times. Put your > expensive filter on but you wont know when it is just close to > being stopped up. My opinion. By the way, I only have a couple of > thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as someone > with ten thousand. Ted Cowan. Alabama Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: daniel myers <h20maule(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Searey flight
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Possible opening to fly from Illinois to Orlando. I am picking up my Searey tuesday and my co-pilot may not be able to go. Anyone in the Orlando area with SeaRey experience is welcome to join me. I will pay for flight from KS FB to Illinois Daniel Myers h20maule(at)hotmail.com 321 356 9544 _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYC B_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Blumax008(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
In a message dated 8/15/2009 7:41:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc1917(at)bellsouth.net writes: Never demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours has he flown. It might be two hours but experienced the same thing but has a different point of view that is valuable. I wholeheartedly agree. I made a comment yesterday inquiring what the hell a "billet" is and was duly informed correctly by someone who knew whereof he spoke. That person, no matter his flight time or experience level, spoke from experience gained in a shop or through discipline to read & learn. What I'm saying is that a person with Zero hours of flight time can be a worthy contributor to the forum. Bill Catalina 31 "years" flying ultralights...with no BRS. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Pat, Yes, unless the aircraft is spec'd as an aerobatic aircraft, item 17 in the operating limitations forbids aerobatics. 17) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft's attitude,an abnormal attitude, or acceleration not necessary for normal flight. Hard to imagine how it could be any clearer. Rick Girard On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 6:19 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > > maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. >> > > Dont you have any restrictions on airobatics in our sort of planes in the > US. > > Strictly illegal here. Not to say it is never done of course > > Pat > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 15, 2009
> I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed the fact > that you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any value on your > advice. By the way, I only have a > couple of thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as > someone with ten thousand. Ted Cowan. Alabama Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. Ted C: Now I am confused. I don't know whether to replace the hour meter in my mkIII with a "year meter" or an "experience meter". To keep track of time for maintenance purposes, service life, etc., which meter do you recommend I use? I realize this has nothing to do with your new subject, "hours vs experience", but neither did my attempt to get folks to use "hours" instead of "years" when it came to use and reliability of Mikuni fuel pumps. Most of us pull maintenance on our cars and trucks using mileage off the odometer. Off road equipment and airplane, I use hours, not years, to keep track of usage. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Hi guys, I am relatively new this forum. I started flying sailplanes in 1974 went to general aviation in 1978, Flew hanggliders in 1982,got my Kolb in 2008. Sounds like I have been flying for 35 years and you should acknowledge me as a sky god. Here is the rest of the story As of 1/29/1981 I had logged 7 hours the past year I have logged about 100 hours. I have met people that spent years and hours flying around the field. I think they still lack experience. I have been ridiculed by people on this site when I was looking for answers. I have talked to somebody in the industry about this site. The opinion seems to be that there is good info to be found here. The bad thing is the way new people are often treated on this site. The treatment is such that newcomers could be driven away from an informative site and possibly a great occupation. I have received email from forum members talking about the elitist mentality they have run into. To me it seemed like financial suicide for an industry insider to post on this site. The bickering could be directed at their business and customers lost. Sometimes I read the posts and it seems that people are abusive to others that don't bow to them, often through the use of sarcasm. It seems some folks want you to bow to them as the sky god even if they are wrong.While I enjoy the varied view and opinions, I am not fond of publically calling someone who has a different opinion an idiot. Johns comment about hours vs years seems accurate. If you look for more meaning than what he said you will find it, just realize those are your words that were added. I actively road raced motorcycles for 25 years. Won numerous races, have close to a dozen championships, have thousands of miles on road courses. I had done more after 3 years than people with 20 years of riding and lots more miles due to the environment I rode in. Two years ago a 14 year old girl beat me in a road race. I was riding an 80 horsepower 250, she was on a 45 horsepower 125. People with airplanes are more fun to talk to than people with computers. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257809#257809 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 15, 2009
I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin training. I plan to get some. Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? Specifically, power off? -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
I have a slightly different twist on Ted's perspective, when he writes: "I would and do listen to the man with one hour flying as well as the man with ten thousand hours. Each has their own distinct idea of what happened...an d should be accorded the same attention." I agree that you should hear out everyone, regardless of their level of exp erience. However, if a person with one hour is giving advice, and a person with significantly more hours is giving advice, I know that I'll actually g ive far more credence to the person with significantly more hours. That's t rue in almost any walk of life - as you pile up experience, people listen t o you=0A more.- In some circumstances, hours and experience are not automatically correlate d. We all know people who don't learn from their experiences, and therefore make the same mistakes over and over. I don't listen to people who have sh own that - regardless of their # of hours - they haven't much wisdom to sha re. Another example are people who take one aspect of their extensive experienc e and assume that makes them an expert on everything. For instance, I have lots of hours, but as PIC it's been almost all in one ultralight. So I don' t have experience with lots of different aircraft. If the subject is compar isons of flying characteristics of different aircraft, all my hours of expe rience won't add to the conversation, and someone with far fewer hours but more varied PIC experience would have better information. - Likewise, someone who has never flown more than 50 miles from=0A their own airfield doesn't have the level of experience as someone who has done long distance flying, regardless of their number of hours.- I don't think that this list "insists that a man has the ten thousand hours to have his advice honored..." -I think that this list is astoundingly f ortunate to=0A have people with not only lots of hours but also greatly var ied experience during those hours of flying, who are thoughtful and able to analyze their experience so to make it useful to those of us with less exp erience. And we also have others on this list with far fewer hours who have given lots of good advice to this list. Sometimes they're in disagreement with the ten thousand hour guys, and we get a good, robust discussion.- Does that mean I can't learn from a low hour pilot who has limited experien ce in where he's flown? Absolutely not. But frankly, someone with less than ten hours isn't someone who has much to teach - they're still at the botto m of a learning curve. Hopefully, they "teach"through their questions...by asking those of us with lots of hours to explain our reasoning, we can gain more insight ourselves. But I don't take their advice and information as s eriously as someone with hundreds of=0A hours.- What SI of great concern to me is that some newcomers experience our list a s elitist and unfriendly to newcomers. Dale Whelan wrote that he's been rid iculed when he asked questions. -To me, that's unforgivable. We ought to remember that NONE of us was born knowing how to fly or do repairs or navig ate, etc. So taking a "doesn't everyone know that" attitude is something th at we should guard against. Answer the questions - there's always someone l urking who will gain from it. And I know that I am still in a learning mode , and I don't remember everything I've learned years ago - so it's helpful for us old-timer, high hour folks as well. Arty TrostMaxair DrifterSandy, Oregon www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com =0A =0A"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" =0A Helen Keller =0A =0A"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Ted Cowan wrote: From: Ted Cowan <tc1917(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Kolb-List: hours vs experience Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 4:17 AM I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed the fact t hat you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any value on your advice .- I would and do listen to the man with one hour flying as well as the m an with ten thousand hours.- Each has their own distinct idea of what hap pened, how to cure it and should be=0A accorded the same attention.- To i nsist a man has the ten thousand hours to have his advice honored is ludicr ous.- Never demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours has he flown.- It might be two hours but experienced the same thin g but has a different point of view that is valuable.- This is the greate st of the lists out there for advice, information and stories but I think y ou all lose site of what it is really is.- Ideas from EVERYONE.- The Ko lb aircraft is different from all others.- It requires the input from ALL , not just a chosen few.- Some of the advice from the chosen few has been grossly incorrect for times nowdays.- Things change.- Please elicit ad vice and information from everyone.- - Now, that filter for eighty buck s might be the cats meow but if you have hard fuel lines, black so you cann ot see what is going through them, and a fuel filter you cannot see=0A thro ugh, no glass or insight as to the condition of the fuel going to your carb s, you may experience the off field landings that you all brag about doing. ---If you are using ethanol fuel in a tank that is older, it WILL cle an the tank and put all the sediment on the bottom for your pump to pick up .- I have seen it happen several times, even on my motorcycle as of late. - That stuff looks like rust, has a lot of lead and other additives in it and WILL stop up a microfilter.- If you cannot see it before it does, yo u WILL be using your skills to survive.- The good part is your tank will be nice and clean which will only matter if you and your toy survive.- I will be using my sight glass filter and do check it all the time.- It has really saved my life several times.- Put your expensive filter on but yo u wont know when it is just close to being stopped up.- My opinion.- By the way, I only have a=0A couple of thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as someone with ten thousand.- Ted Cowan.- Alabama- Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: zeprep251(at)aol.com
Dale, ?No.The spin recovery technique for my John Deere is very different--------.Sorry,the spin recovery techniques sometimes differ because some aircraft require power addition for recovery,but for most, forward stick and opposite rudder until rotation stops and flying speed is obtained are pretty much standard.? Now that I'm out here on this limb someone may want to saw it off. ???? G.Aman MK-3C -----Original Message----- From: dalewhelan <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 1:06 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin training. I plan to get some. Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? Specifically, power off? -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
you will have to ask John H if he has spun one of his John Deeres. BB On 15, Aug 2009, at 1:06 PM, dalewhelan wrote: > > > I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin > training. I plan to get some. > Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? > Specifically, power off? > > -------- > Dale Whelan > 503 powered Firestar II > Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: zeprep251(at)aol.com
Mike, ? I still think we have not enough info to make a judgment.My first thought was an uncommanded up elevator condition, just the opposite from yours,so it's still hard to say.The Feds say "loss of control".That still does not answer the big question,WHY. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? G.Aman MK-3-C -----Original Message----- From: JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump Even though the report is short, it has some very good information in it. From the description of the non pilot witness, maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. The fact that this was done three times and that the plane leveled out each time means that it was intentional. The flip over backwards and subsequent spin could very well happen in a badly executed hammerhead stall. John H, have you ever spun the MK III ? How many turns and what is it like ? I have seen Possums videos of spins in his Firestar, but the MK III being much heavier may be totally different in a spin. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257721#257721 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: zeprep251(at)aol.com
Bet he has,at very low altitude and never with power off. -----Original Message----- From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 3:09 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump ? you will have to ask John H if he has spun one of his John Deeres.? BB? ? On 15, Aug 2009, at 1:06 PM, dalewhelan wrote:? ? >? > I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin > training. I plan to get some.? > Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor?? > Specifically, power off?? >? > --------? > Dale Whelan? > 503 powered Firestar II? > Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept? >? >? >? >? > Read this topic online here:? >? > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
> you will have to ask John H if he has spun one of his John Deeres. > BB Bob B: Yep, they are both pushers. No problem with low altitude with the 1937 JD B. MKIII is another ball game. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2009
zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: > Mike, > I still think we have not enough info to make a judgment.My first thought was an uncommanded up elevator condition, just the opposite from yours,so it's still hard to say.The Feds say "loss of control".That still does not answer the big question,WHY. > G.Aman MK-3-C > > I did seriously consider uncomanded pitch up at first, that is why I was so reluctant to make the assumption that Brad was doing aerobatics after reading the news report, and obvious lack of knowledge by the witness. What really changes things is when the NTSB reports that the plane had " Leveled Off " three times before the last maneuver. In an uncommanded pitch up, the airplane might pass through level a couple times, but " Level Off " very clearly means what it says, the plane was obviously under control three different times in this episode. I now have to go with the hammerhead stall and spin assumption at this point. Dana wrote: > At 11:54 AM 8/13/2009, > > Not if they're talking to a non pilot reporter... but somewhere I read that > in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness... because > their perception is influenced by that they think is happening. Accident > investigators say that a video camera, naturally, is the best witness. An > intelligent child is second best, because they describe what they see > without trying to interpret it. A non pilot adult is third, and a pilot is > the worst. > > I do take strong issue with this statement. If I was letting a person fly my plane and wanted to know how he was flying and if he was abusing the airplane or not, I could send someone out to the airport or the practice area to watch my airplane being flown from the ground and have them and report back to me. If I were to do this, I would most definitely send a qualified pilot do this, not some woman that had never flown an airplane before, or even less likely a kid. Any of you would really rather have a soccer mom tell you how your airplane was going flown than a qualified pilot ? Loss of control or intentional aerobatics, a experienced pilot would definitely be MUCH better able to tell the difference between the two rather than some woman or kid that knew nothing about flying. The statement above may sound appealing on some level, but when one really thinks about it , its total garbage. If John Hauck, myself, or any of a number of qualified pilots here had witnessed this accident, we would be a LOT more likely to give an accurate account of what happened rather than this witness saw the crash but knows nothing. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257840#257840 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Spinning
At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote: > >I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin >training. I plan to get some. >Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? >Specifically, power off? You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine. Don't think you'll want much power either, since your nose will be pointed at the ground anyway. Here's some pictures from the wing. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Possums Your video is great. Thanx for showing everyone that a Kolb can be spun if it's in rig and the pilot is experienced/careful. It looks as tho a Kolb has no bad habits in a spin. I assume spins in both directions are similar? But this should NOT encourage Kolb pilots to try this without some supervision! Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, with fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted the ground, the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but alive. Besides, they're fun! Russ K PS I admit I've never worked out a really good spin-recover technique in a car on ice. On Aug 15, 2009, at 5:40 PM, possums wrote: > > At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin >> training. I plan to get some. >> Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? >> Specifically, power off? > > > You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal > or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want > to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine. > Don't think you'll want much power either, since your nose > will be pointed at the ground anyway. > > Here's some pictures from the wing. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
Date: Aug 15, 2009
There is an alternative possibility: Brad may have simply been demonstrating departure stalls. The non-aviation oriented witness could easily get the impression that he was attempting to go "straight up" After two, in which obviously it would appear that he was leveling off, he went for number three. (that's the part I can't figure) A very tall departure stall with the rudder kicked can do unpredictable things unless you have done the same thing MANY times in exactly the same way. It can fall off one one wing with the result dependent upon elevator position. Up elevator, exaggerated inverted spin entry. Usually won't initially go on its back but flop so quickly that the nose goes beyond center, giving you the sensation that you are going to somersault. Loose stuff flies around cabin. Elevator neutralized just ahead of stall. (still at full power) Plane SHOULD mush and nose fall through with normal recovery. If the angle is too steep a certain amount of vertical fall will have to happen before the nose falls Worst case is tail slide. Up elevator should be maintained to go to go right side up. Cut power. The right point for repowering is a question because all my experience in unusual positions is tractor. We will never know for sure. I recommend that Kolbs be used for what they were intended, casual rides for the geriatric. BB On 15, Aug 2009, at 3:54 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > > zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: >> Mike, >> I still think we have not enough info to make a judgment.My >> first thought was an uncommanded up elevator condition, just the >> opposite from yours,so it's still hard to say.The Feds say "loss >> of control".That still does not answer the big question,WHY. >> G.Aman MK-3-C >> >> > > > I did seriously consider uncomanded pitch up at first, that is why > I was so reluctant to make the assumption that Brad was doing > aerobatics after reading the news report, and obvious lack of > knowledge by the witness. > > What really changes things is when the NTSB reports that the plane > had " Leveled Off " three times before the last maneuver. In an > uncommanded pitch up, the airplane might pass through level a > couple times, but " Level Off " very clearly means what it says, > the plane was obviously under control three different times in this > episode. I now have to go with the hammerhead stall and spin > assumption at this point. > > > Dana wrote: >> At 11:54 AM 8/13/2009, >> >> Not if they're talking to a non pilot reporter... but somewhere I >> read that >> in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness... >> because >> their perception is influenced by that they think is happening. >> Accident >> investigators say that a video camera, naturally, is the best >> witness. An >> intelligent child is second best, because they describe what they see >> without trying to interpret it. A non pilot adult is third, and a >> pilot is >> the worst. >> >> > > > I do take strong issue with this statement. If I was letting a > person fly my plane and wanted to know how he was flying and if he > was abusing the airplane or not, I could send someone out to the > airport or the practice area to watch my airplane being flown from > the ground and have them and report back to me. If I were to do > this, I would most definitely send a qualified pilot do this, not > some woman that had never flown an airplane before, or even less > likely a kid. Any of you would really rather have a soccer mom > tell you how your airplane was going flown than a qualified > pilot ? Loss of control or intentional aerobatics, a experienced > pilot would definitely be MUCH better able to tell the difference > between the two rather than some woman or kid that knew nothing > about flying. > > The statement above may sound appealing on some level, but when one > really thinks about it , its total garbage. If John Hauck, > myself, or any of a number of qualified pilots here had witnessed > this accident, we would be a LOT more likely to give an accurate > account of what happened rather than this witness saw the crash but > knows nothing. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257840#257840 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Spinning
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Possums=2C After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins=2C I get the impr ession that you=3B A) had to make the Firestar spin B) were in absolute full control during the spin C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it D) were VERY high above the ground Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and b iting some inattentive pilot. In other words=2C stalls don't just "happen" =2C you have to want it to stall. Just my observation.... Mike Welch MkIII progress=2C stalled on purpose > Date: Sat=2C 15 Aug 2009 17:40:00 -0400 > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > From: possums(at)bellsouth.net > Subject: Kolb-List: Spinning > > > At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009=2C you wrote: > > > >I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin > >training. I plan to get some. > >Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? > >Specifically=2C power off? > > > You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal > or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want > to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine. > Don't think you'll want much power either=2C since your nose > will be pointed at the ground anyway. > > Here's some pictures from the wing. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e n-US:SI_PH_software:082009 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Spinning
At 07:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote: >Possums, > > After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins, I get > the impression that you; > >A) had to make the Firestar spin >B) were in absolute full control during the spin >C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it >D) were VERY high above the ground Yeah - Beauford told me to cut the power, stomp on the rudder pedal, yank the stick back as far as it would go and see if I could count to ten. Done four - don't think I want to do ten. Air speed never got over 65 mph ........like he said. Mine doesn't seem to wind up much though. I could see how you could use it to get through a cloud layer if you knew you had 2,000 feet or so of clear air above the ground. I've done it the other way, and I didn't like it much - takes too long and I didn't know which was is up after a minute or two. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6787107193246239411 "Neutral does it for the firefly... soon as I turn it loose it stops rotation and begins to fly...no opposite rudder or forward pop on the stick needed...highest I have seen on ASI is 65 while it was spinning... It does spin nose almost straight down...not like a cub or champ....feels different...also likes to wind up... 3 turns is most I have let it go, but it was still winding up when I released the back pressure and inside rudder... I betcha an 8 or 10 turn doober could be eye-watering. I ain't gonna find out." Beauford T ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2009
> Ted C: > > Now I am confused. I don't know whether to replace the hour meter in my mkIII with a "year meter" or an "experience meter". > > With all this confusion, I updated my hours in my profile so my experience in a Kolb reflects how long that I've been flying them. Not as long as some, but more than others. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be giving advice. What do you think? -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 960 hours 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257902#257902 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Ralph, give it! No one is forced to take it. The intelligent ones will. On Aug 15, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Ralph B wrote: > > >> Ted C: >> >> Now I am confused. I don't know whether to replace the hour meter >> in my mkIII with a "year meter" or an "experience meter". >> >> > > > With all this confusion, I updated my hours in my profile so my > experience in a Kolb reflects how long that I've been flying them. > Not as long as some, but more than others. I don't know, maybe I > shouldn't be giving advice. What do you think? > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 960 hours > 22 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 1 year flying it > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257902#257902 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: MULA Flyin at Purdy Field
Date: Aug 15, 2009
I just got back from a wonderful day at the MULA flyin at Purdy field outside of Durand, MI. The weather was better than wonderful. Had a tail wind all the way there and some of the way back home. Smooth air and sunny skies. Some haze with hot sunny sky all day. There was a record turn out. Except for a few campers near mid field the planes were lined up wing tip to wing tip the full length of the 1800 ft field. There were three Firestars, one mark II and one MKIIIC. There was just a bit of airplane talk under the wings of our airplanes all day irrupted by trips to the food line. Barbequed chicken was the mail lunch meal with many other choices at very reasonable prices. The smooth flight home flying in wide formation next to Jim Swan in his Firestar topped off a great day. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 15, 2009
> With all this confusion, I updated my hours in my profile so my experience in a Kolb reflects how long that I've been flying them. Not as long as some, but more than others. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be giving advice. What do you think? > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 960 hours > 22 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 1 year flying it Ralph B: I don't give advice. I wouldn't feel too good about advising someone to do something to or with their Kolb, then they out and bust their butt. I share the good and the bad. Folks can take it or leave it for what it is worth. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 15, 2009
> Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud > layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, with > fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted the ground, > the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but alive. > Besides, they're fun! > Russ K Russ K: Think you wrote about this once before. I don't recommend you try spinning any airplane into the ground. I can assure you, you will not walk away and you will not be dizzy. You will probably not be alive. I don't know what the school definition is of a spin, but to me it is not a stable maneuver. To me, it is an uncontrolled maneuver until control is regained when exiting the spin. In a Kolb, the nose is nearly straight down, and it seems more like a spiral than a spin. I can assure you altitude is rapidly lost. I've spun every Kolb I have built and owned, but I don't enjoy going out and doing spins for fun anymore. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Mike W: I, personally, don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin, not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished. During the spin there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion. My original Firestar had to have the controls crossed up and locked to spin, and then it would only spin a half turn and fly out of the spin with the controls still locked. That was with the engine at idle. While experimenting with engine off aerobatics, I tried a spin. Dead stick,it spun up and would not recover until control was relaxed on stick and pedals. The MKIII, being a much heavier aircraft than the Firestar falls out of the sky in a spin. Can't remember how many feet it takes to recovery from time of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin, but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground. Inadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not paying attention, has diversion of attention, and is usually close to the ground. It is the inattentive pilot that is going to bite the dust. Stalls do happen. The desire to stall does not have to be part of the equation by any means. Kolbs are not prone to spin. One reason is the outboard end of the wing does not stall, therefore we still have aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping. However, if you stall close to the ground, you probably will not have time to recover before impact. Unlike some of the pilots on this List, I keep a cross check of my ASI when I am close to the ground, and especially during landing. Only takes me an instant to know where my ASI needle is pointing. I don't have to stare at the ASI to know how fast I am flying. It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the stall. Even more important when winds are changing direction on me. I can not use perceived ground speed as an airspeed reference to keep me above the stall. One can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb, but it is that one little incident that will get you. Been there and done that, more than once. Hopefully, I am learning. john h mkIII After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you; A) had to make the Firestar spin B) were in absolute full control during the spin C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it D) were VERY high above the ground Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattentive pilot. In other words, stalls don't just "happen", you have to want it to stall. Just my observation.... Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinning
From: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Stalls in my M3X are so gentle you don't even lose any altitude....they are fun to do...you can really learn how to fly it right on the edge of slow flight with out worrying about whats going to happen.I did some stalls last week in mine and recorded it...take a look....and notice all the stalling I was doing..I lost no altitude..I will have the outside view next time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHpS2rqp2bk chris ambrose M3X/jab 47.1hrs N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257928#257928 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 15, 2009
There have been some well meaning and well written comments. But,,,,,,,I never saw anything said by anyone that we should have X hours to give advice. I think there was a misunderstanding of what was written. Someone got his nose out of joint but there was nothing to get worked up over. I think the whole issue hours vs. years is a chest pounding display of one upmanship but I'm not one of the top dogs so I would. Why don't we just move on. Remember there is only one stupid question and it is the one that doesn't get asked. Also the advise given is best when it is given "to help others". Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2009
From: George Thompson <eagle1live(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
When I got my pilot training many years ago in 1947. We did spin training t raining as part of our lessons. This was in an old (new at the time) 1946 -"Air Nocker" Champ. We were required to call out the number of turns we we we were going to make and also the heading, any at North----- South or East or West or any 90 degree heading. For me, it was a lot of fun .. I could come out on my heading every time very easy. The Champ spun rathe r flat and not very fast so- it was no problem. My flight instructor ( An ex Marine Corsier fighter pilot) also told me it was an easy to Way to los e altitude.=0A--- BUT, I have bulit and flown a Hi Max, a Firestar an d a Firestar II and I never attemped to spin any of those because I didn't know how they would react.=0A--- I therefore would not recomend doing it in any of our Kolbs unless talking to someone who had done it a number of times to see how it would react. Also no Kolb is built exactly as yours. ..=0A--- For what its worth.=0A----- The Old Az. Bald Eagle =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Hauck <jhauck@ elmore.rr.com>=0ATo: kolb-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, August 15, 2 009 8:00:16 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning=0A=0A=0AMike W:=0A-=0AI , personally, don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin, not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished.- During the sp in there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion.=0A -=0AMy original Firestar had to have the controls crossed up and locked t o spin, and then it would only spin a half turn and fly out of the spin wit h the controls still locked.- That was with the engine at idle.- While experimenting with engine off aerobatics, I tried a spin.- Dead stick,it spun up and would not recover until control was relaxed on stick and pedals ..=0A-=0AThe MKIII, being a much heavier aircraft than the Firestar falls out of the sky in a spin.- Can't remember how many feet it takes to recov ery from time of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin, but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground.=0A-=0AInadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not paying attention, has diversion of attention, and is usually close to the ground.- It is the inattentive pi lot that is going to bite the dust.- Stalls do happen.- The desire to s tall does not have to be part of the equation by any means.=0A-=0AKolbs a re not prone to spin.- One reason is the outboard end of the wing does no t stall, therefore we still have aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping.- However, if you stall close to the ground, you pr obably will not have time to recover before impact.=0A-=0AUnlike some of the pilots on this List, I keep a cross check of my ASI when I am close to the ground, and especially during landing.- Only takes me an instant to k now where my ASI needle is pointing.- I don't have to stare at the ASI to know how fast I am flying.- It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the stall.- Even more important when winds are changin g direction on me.- I can not use perceived ground speed as an airspeed r eference to keep me above the stall.=0A-=0AOne can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb, but it is that one little incident that-will get you. =0A-=0ABeen there and done that, more than once.- Hopefully, I am learn ing.=0A-=0Ajohn h=0AmkIII=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-- After watching the v ideo of you and your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you;=0A>- =0A>A) had to make the Firestar spin=0A>B)-were in absolute full control during the spin=0A>C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to e nd it=0A>D) were VERY high above the ground=0A>-=0A>- Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattent ive pilot.- In other words, stalls don't just "happen", you have to want it to stall.=0A>- Just my observation....=0A>-=0A>Mike Welch=0A>-=0A =================0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinning
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 15, 2009
Thanks guys -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257941#257941 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: "funderp47" <philfunster(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
I'm a barely computer literate lurker that reads this list. Bob Bean's post below this one caught my eye. I posted this on another list recently: I also use a Fram G1. I get them from Tractor Supply, but they don't always have them. I buy extras when they do and save them. A friend landed with his Phantom a few months ago, and I noticed the paper media was just sloshing around inside his G1 looking filter. It was a Purolator, and the paper was simply glued to the outlet end of the canister. It had come loose and was just floating around. The canister was full of fuel, even though it was vertical on the suction side above the tank. A G1 in that position will have very little fuel in it by its design, and makes for a good filter clogging indicator if it starts filling up. We replaced it with one of my Frams. He shut it down before takeoff, and when I walked over, he said gas was dripping down from the engine. A piece of paper fuzz from the unglued element was in a carb's needle/seat and caused the bowl to overflow and he saw it. I guess that's one advantage to a tractor style with a high engine. A G1 has metal caps on each end of the filter paper media, and the little miniature filter is held (wedged) in place by standoffs made into the plastic housing. Phil slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: > On the filter thing, I'm almost embarrassed to report my discovery. > As you may remember I have been having mysterious fuel > problems. -discolored, stale smelling gas, stuttering engine on > climb out, float needle hanging at start. > -well some good came of it, I changed the line over to the newer > ethanol resistant stuff, Put a tee in for a temporary gauge. > Every spring I put in a new plastic auto zone filter with a decent > sized reservoir bottom. > > Don't buy the auto zone model made in china > > When I cut the bottom off I discovered the element flopping around > and the cement (epoxy, asphalt, old chewing gum?) > that was supposed to retain it had dried and crumbled and chunks were > broken off. Obviously some had gone downstream > to the pump and maybe the regulator. -ethanol is not our friend > except when mixed with hops and malted barley. > > I have a metal housing filter in for temporary. I'll buy a good one. > BB > BTW, had a nice ride last evening. Seemed peppier with fuel getting > into the float bowl :) > > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257953#257953 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
For those few of you who are flying Kolbs with Jabiru engines, you may have already learned what I learned recently. If not then listen up for it is worth knowing. Shortly after flying home with my NTM (new to me) Slinghsot with Jabiru 2200A engine, I stupidly left the master switch on over-night. Predictably, next time I went to fly, the battery had insufficient power to crank the engine. Fortunately, Luray the builder profided and easy to use battery jumper cable connection so I jump started it with my car. After disconnecting the jumper cables the battery was still low but the alternator was charging it so I went ahead and taxied out toward the runway and did my pre-take-off checks turned on the landing lights and took off. During climb out the EIS warning light came on and automatically switched to the voltage meter page which was blinking about 11.7V. About the same time, the tach reading on the EIS went to zero but the engine was running fine. I completed the circuit and landed uneventfully. Luray had installed a 15A fuse in the DC output circuit from the rectifier/regulator to the battery and it blew during high power climb with all electrical loads on. Luray had never had this happen during the nearly 5 years he had been flying the SS with Jabiru engine. Afterwards, I learned from the Jabiru Engines list that when the battery is low and the electrical load is high the current flow from the regulator is very high and apparently sufficient to blow a 15A fuse. I've never seen this before on any machine I've ever operated with a low battery. I replaced the 15A fuse with a 20A (per Jabiru installation manual), fully charged the battery and flew yesterday for a bit over an hour with no problems. The moral of this story is that you should not fly the Jabiru with high electrical loads when the battery is low. If you do and don't have circuit protection you might get a nasty surprise. If you do have a fuse in that circuit, make sure it is 20A per the Jabiru manual, which says that the fuse is optional. With this recent experience, I would consider a fuse in this circuit to be mandatory. I only have about 7 hours flying time with a Jabiru but it was a valuable experience worth relating to other Jabiru fliers. If I had known of this peculiarity before, I would not have flown until I had fully charged the battery. Again, I've never seen this occurr on any other machine I've operated so it may be peculiar to the Jabiru alternator and rect/reg combination or something else entirely. Can't say for sure but you can bet I'll never ever leave the master switch on again of fly with the battery low again. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257957#257957 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: loseyf(at)comcast.net
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Well put Rick. As a newbie to this list, I monitor because I want to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building, operating and maintaining the Kolb. My goal is to always approach dialog in "sponge" mode, trying to soak up and learn from every person I interact with, hopeful that I may be able to return the favor someday. Granted, a good cross check of information received should be in order, but for the most part I appreciate when persons share experiences and information that I am unfamiliar with, as I am clearly learning, and strive to be a safe and knowledgeable builder, operator, and owner. My gratitude to those who provide such unselfish service. Please keep up the good work. Fran Losey ------Original Message------ From: Rick Neilsen Sender: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com ReplyTo: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Aug 16, 2009 4:44 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience There have been some well meaning and well written comments. But,,,,,,,I never saw anything said by anyone that we should have X hours to give advice. I think there was a misunderstanding of what was written. Someone got his nose out of joint but there was nothing to get worked up over. I think the whole issue hours vs. years is a chest pounding display of one upmanship but I'm not one of the top dogs so I would. Why don't we just move on. Remember there is only one stupid question and it is the one that doesn't get asked. Also the advise given is best when it is given "to help others". Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
John=2C My observation of Possums' video gave me the impression he had control of the spin=2C that is=3B entering it=2C how long it lasted=2C and when he de cided to end it. I agree with you that during the actual spin you don't re ally have any "flight control"=2C except when you end it. Personally=2C I've never spun any aircraft I've flown=2C nor do I plan to . Not my cup of tea. I was just making an observation that Kolbs seem to be a reasonably docile airplane=2C and not some "scary out of control flight-trap". I also made the observation Stan was VERY high above the ground. Regardl ess of whatever aerobatic flight manuever a person might try=2C they need t o do it way up high=2C to allow plenty of time for recovery=2C or as a last resort=2C a ballistic chute attempt. In my opinion=2C doing a high risk manuever close to the ground=2C includ ing an excessive climb out=2C are asking for trouble. I am curious how you feel "One reason is the outboard end of the wing do es not stall". I have not heard that before. Since the Kolb aircraft wings do not have a ny "washout" built into them=2C why would the outboard wing act any differe nt than any other portion of the wing. I'm not arguing with you=2C just curious why you said that. BTW=2C I keep the same attention level close to the ground as you do. A good pilot would be aware of his airspeed (on approach)=2C and the airspeed indicator can NOT be the only way to monitor one's airspeed. They need to have a "feel" for how the airplane is acting=2C too. When I went through flight training=2C my instructor used to cover up the flight instruments=2C just to make sure I wasn't ONLY relying on just the instruments. Mike Welch MkIII From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning Date: Sat=2C 15 Aug 2009 22:00:16 -0500 Mike W: I=2C personally=2C don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin =2C not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished. During t he spin there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion . My original Firestar had to have the controls crossed up and locked to spin =2C and then it would only spin a half turn and fly out of the spin with th e controls still locked. That was with the engine at idle. While experime nting with engine off aerobatics=2C I tried a spin. Dead stick=2Cit spun u p and would not recover until control was relaxed on stick and pedals. The MKIII=2C being a much heavier aircraft than the Firestar falls out of t he sky in a spin. Can't remember how many feet it takes to recovery from t ime of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin=2C but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground. Inadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not paying attention=2C has diversion of attention=2C and is usually close to the ground. It is the i nattentive pilot that is going to bite the dust. Stalls do happen. The de sire to stall does not have to be part of the equation by any means. Kolbs are not prone to spin. One reason is the outboard end of the wing do es not stall=2C therefore we still have aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping. However=2C if you stall close to the ground =2C you probably will not have time to recover before impact. Unlike some of the pilots on this List=2C I keep a cross check of my ASI wh en I am close to the ground=2C and especially during landing. Only takes m e an instant to know where my ASI needle is pointing. I don't have to star e at the ASI to know how fast I am flying. It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the stall. Even more important when winds are changing direction on me. I can not use perceived ground speed as an a irspeed reference to keep me above the stall. One can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb=2C but it is that one litt le incident that will get you. Been there and done that=2C more than once. Hopefully=2C I am learning. john h mkIII After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins=2C I get the imp ression that you=3B A) had to make the Firestar spin B) were in absolute full control during the spin C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it D) were VERY high above the ground Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and b iting some inattentive pilot. In other words=2C stalls don't just "happen" =2C you have to want it to stall. Just my observation.... Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
List I certainly don't want to start another long thread. Of course John is right, and I don't recommend spinning into the ground either. I only know what I've been told about the airmail pilots; how their wood-and-fabric aircraft would break up in a crash, and (reportedly) the pilot usually lived thru it. But maybe I've believed too much. I have no first-hand or second-hand, or even third-hand experience here. I should have emphasized that the old biplanes had low vertical descent speeds in a spin; not like modern aircraft. I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or bring it out of the spin. They used to require spins in pilot training, then only 'an approach to a spin'. This at least let the student know what it felt like, just before the spin developed. I suspect the change occurred because of too many accidents. Good idea to stay away from them. Do we have a CFI on the list who has some input? Russ K On Aug 15, 2009, at 10:40 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud >> layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, >> with fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted >> the ground, the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but >> alive. >> Besides, they're fun! >> Russ K > > > Russ K: > > Think you wrote about this once before. > > I don't recommend you try spinning any airplane into the ground. I > can assure you, you will not walk away and you will not be dizzy. > You will probably not be alive. > > I don't know what the school definition is of a spin, but to me it > is not a stable maneuver. To me, it is an uncontrolled maneuver > until control is regained when exiting the spin. > > In a Kolb, the nose is nearly straight down, and it seems more like > a spiral than a spin. I can assure you altitude is rapidly lost. > > I've spun every Kolb I have built and owned, but I don't enjoy > going out and doing spins for fun anymore. > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Hi Mike W: To answer your question about the outboard end of the wing not stalling: TNK did tuft tests of the MKIIIc early on in their development of the MKIIIx. As soon as stall was initiated the tufts on the inboard end of the wing would start pulling off the wing, dancing around, indicating air had seperated from the top of the wing. The tufts on the outboard end of the wing stayed glued to the top of the wing all the way to the end of the bow tip. Inboard stalled, outboard still flying. Further, I did some experimenting with my MKIII just prior to flying to Pennsylvania for Homer's funeral which backed up the tuft tests. Playing around with stalls, I pulled the flap handle out of the detent and let it float between zero and 20 degrees. As the MKIII approached the stall, the flaps started a gentle shake, but the ailerons remained steady. Further into the stall the flaps and the ailerons were steady. If you can get enough angle of attack of the wing, and hold it there, you can stall the whole wing. However, it is difficult if not impossible to hold that steep an attitude for more than a moment. In a mush/stall, with the stick all the way back to the stop, the Kolb mushes in a near level attitude. Most of the time it will gain enough airspeed to fly back out of the mush/stall with the stick still being held full aft. I think what screws folks up is the gentleness of this maneuver at a safe altitude gives them a false impression that they can pop right out of a mush/stall any time they wish. However, close to the ground it is easy to get into a mush/stall and not get out of it before hitting the ground because there just isn't enough altitude to complete the maneuver. Remember Dale Walen telling us he hit the ground pretty hard when he was maneuvering close to the ground in his FS with his girl friend on board. I imagine he mushed it into the ground when he got too slow in a steep turn, hit the ground, regained enough airspeed to start flying again. I experienced something similar departing Grants, NM, last May. Flew out of ground effect, max gross weight, 9300 feet DA, cross wind in a valley with invisible dust devils in the area of the airstrip. I was too low and too slow and too heavy to push the nose down to recover. I kept the throttle wide open, kept the nose up with aft stick, kept the wings level. The wind blew me off the runway to the left. I hit in the sand between the sage brush extremely hard, thinking I was going to spread the main gear legs, kept the throttle wide open, bounced back into the air, and was flying again, however poorly. Bruce C and John B took off ahead of me, experienced the same thing, but were able to keep from hitting the ground. Was not a fun experience, but it got our utmost attention after that, and we learned a lot. john h mkIII I am curious how you feel "One reason is the outboard end of the wing does not stall". Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
did some stalls last week in mine and recorded it...take a look....and notice all the stalling I was doing..I lost no altitude.. > > chris ambrose If your Kolb flies like my Kolb, the inboard end of the wings stalls first and the aircraft goes into a gentle mush/stall because the outboard end of the wing is still providing some lift. A lot of Kolb aircraft have mushed into the ground in a level attitude, spread the gear or worse, and the pilots walked away, thinking they were still flying and wondering why they were losing altitude. Some of those pilots did not walk away. If you get enough angle of attack, the entire wing stalls. The pilot will recognize this as a normal stall, like in a Cessna. But with enough altitude, the Kolb will fly out of it. Not long ago I was trying to get back into the groove after laying off flying since I returned from out West the end of May, getting ready to fly to Homer's in mid-July. I was playing around with slow flight, stalls, steep turns, and placed the the flap handle between zero and 20 degrees, letting the handle float in that position. As I approached the stall the flaps would shake. In all the flying I have done in this airplane, this is the first time I had observed this. As I got further into the stall the flaps would stop shaking, but the ailerons never shook. That, to me, was an indication the inboard end of the wing is stalling before the outboard end. I don't think I ever stalled a Kolb and not lost altitude. Experiementing with the Kolb I can nibble at the mush/stall and it doesn't seem like I have lost any altitude because it is so gentle. This can get pilots in trouble because the airplane remains in a level attitude, but it is in a stall. Our head tells us we are flying because we are level. Our heads are telling us if we were stalling, the nose would be down. In the early years of flying Kolbs, I experimented quite a bit with different flying techniques, unusual attitudes, aerobatics, trying to learn all I could about flying these little airplanes. A lot of the experimenting I did was well outside the design flight envelope, but I would not have found out how they flew if I had not gone there. Would I do that kind of flying now that I have learned the hard way several times? Not hardly, but I wouldn't give a million dollars for the experience. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Kolbers, When I began flying lessons, recovery from spins was a requirement. Later on I flew sailplanes for a a couple of years. Since you are primarily in continuos slow flight just above stall most of the time, it was important to experience spins and recovery. As I under stand it the FAA stopped requiring spin recovery training, due to the fact that most spins were experienced during transition to and from the ground. And since most of the resultant effects could not be countered did not feel that training was essential. I still believe that spin and spin recovery should be taught, as it can give you a lot of important information about your aircraft. My original FireFly, was very twitchy and when I would pull it up into a low powered stall, I had to kick rudder to pick a wing as it mushed forward. If I didn't it would roll over into a spin. Later I mounted VG's and it improved the airflow over the ailerons, so that a wing would not drop, and the FireFly just went into a forward mush. The twitchyness went away. One could advance the throttle and hold altitude, and with a little aileron input, rotate the FireFly without dropping a wing. One had to force it into a spin. Then I mounted the Victor 1+ and I moved the propeller off to one side to prevent the addition of a trim tab to the rudder. This improved overall cruise performance but the asymmetrical thrust over the wings dramatically changed the stall characteristics. The left wing receives greater propeller coverage, and so the right wing will always stall first. With little power, one can hold it up with rudder. Under power the right wing will warn you with a "wump" and then the flow will re-attach, and it you persist in adding more back stick, the right wing will drop and over you go. This is the price I have to pay for asymmetrical thrust to keep weight down and to increase cruise performance. But I would not have found how the FireFly would respond if I had not taken it up to altitude and checked it out. FWIW Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Sources for Fram G1 in-line gas filter
In my area the Fram G1 filter is hard to find if you can, I usually have to order them from Lockwood Aviation. A little over a month ago I went around to various auto parts to see if I could get a like replacement. This is what I learned. Auto Zone - didn't have any crossover to Fram G1. PEP Boys - told them I needed 1/4" barb connects - they gave me one with 5/16". - returned it. O'Reilly Auto Parts - had a filter but not quite like the Fram. NAPA Auto Parts - they had a replacement - one with 5/16" barbs and one with 1/4" barbs - this one was identical to the Fram G1 - the case direction flow indicator molded into the plastic housing was identical to the Fram G1 - looked identical to me. I'm running one now, so far no problems. The NAPA has a paper element - I will look at it to see if it has metal caps on each end of the filter paper media, and if it has the little miniature filter held (wedged) in place by standoffs made into the plastic housing as referenced by Phil. I understand Mark Smith on the UL or CGS Hawk List sells the Fram G1 filters. I would like to thank Phil for his input and the lead to Tractor Supply as a source for the Fram G1 filters. jerb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
My original > FireFly, was very twitchy and when I would pull it up into a low powered > stall, I had to kick rudder to pick a wing as it mushed forward. If I > didn't it would roll over into a spin. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN Jack H: Wouldn't the aileron hold your FF level in a low powered mush? I never got a chance to "horse around" with the FF more than I could do in the traffic patterns of OSH and LAL. Been so long since I flew it I can't remember, but there was something a little unusual about it when slipping, I think. I never flew the original with the huge ailerons, only the ones with smaller ailerons. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinning
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Possums wrote: > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 > > Possums, What a ride !!! With no window or anything forward of you in your firestar, you are hanging by your belts looking down at nothing but air in front of you for 2000 feet :) I have done hundreds of spins in a Cessna 150 Aerobat, but your position and view in the spin is just insane crazy. Do you do that often ? How many turns have you done ? That is a really cool video, I hope you keep making new ones. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257989#257989 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinning
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: > > > I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by > itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or bring > it out of the spin. > A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other airplane. Just like the non aviation witness be the best to determine how an airplane was flying before a crash, don't believe everything you hear and read. The above is not true, a spin can and usually does change a lot depending on how many turns you go through. This is why many people do not spin past 3 turns or so, spins have a very bad habit if tightening up, getting flatter, and doing all sorts of strange things depending on the airplane and how it is loaded. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257990#257990 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
If I was flying any airplane with a low battery, I would leave the landing and all other lights off until the battery was properly charged. Chances are, if you had not had that large extra load of the landing light on, you would have never had a problem. Landing and other lights are most definitely not required during takeoff in daylight, many Kolbs and other airplanes don't even have them. I have no problem using a landing light to become more visible in daylight patterns, unless I have a low battery which needs to be charged, which then becomes much more important. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257993#257993 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sources for Fram G1 in-line gas filter
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Jerb, Thanks for the good info. Since my recent experience I am a little reluctant to use another plastic housing filter. BUT, if there are good ones available I will still consider them. The clear housing type are what I would want. The thing to look for is how the element is located within. It should be mechanically captured by the housing, not held in place by some mysterious means. Placing it in the suction area before the pump would eliminate pressure/burst problems. -all it has to do is survive ethanol. Anyway, since getting that behind me I attended a flyin event yesterday and a breakfast this morning. Good to be flying and not fixing. -besides, I had to go someplace after getting it clean enough to appear in public. I flew alongside a flock of taildraggers going to. ...rephrase that, I straggled behind those speedy A65 powered monsters. BB On 16, Aug 2009, at 11:19 AM, jerb wrote: > In my area the Fram G1 filter is hard to find if you can, I usually > have to order them from Lockwood Aviation. > > A little over a month ago I went around to various auto parts to > see if I could get a like replacement. This is what I learned. > > Auto Zone - didn't have any crossover to Fram G1. > > PEP Boys - told them I needed 1/4" barb connects - they gave me one > with 5/16". - returned it. > > O'Reilly Auto Parts - had a filter but not quite like the Fram. > > NAPA Auto Parts - they had a replacement - one with 5/16" barbs and > one with 1/4" barbs - this one was identical to the Fram G1 - the > case direction flow indicator molded into the plastic housing was > identical to the Fram G1 - looked identical to me. I'm running one > now, so far no problems. > > The NAPA has a paper element - I will look at it to see if it has > metal caps on each end of the filter paper media, and if it has the > little miniature filter held (wedged) in place by standoffs made > into the plastic > housing as referenced by Phil. > > I understand Mark Smith on the UL or CGS Hawk List sells the Fram > G1 filters. > > I would like to thank Phil for his input and the lead to Tractor > Supply as a source for the Fram G1 filters. > > jerb > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
funderp47 wrote: > > > A friend landed with his Phantom a few months ago, and I noticed the paper media > was just sloshing around inside his G1 looking filter. It was a Purolator, and > the paper was simply glued to the outlet end of the canister. It had come loose > and was just floating around. He shut it down before takeoff, and when I > walked over, he said gas was dripping down from the engine. > > Given the many stories like this, and the EAA's statistics which say that about half of all engine failures in experimental airplanes are caused by fuel system problems, I can imagine you guys continuing to screw around with 3 dollar lawn mower filters on your planes. The fuel filter that Aircraft spruce sells with its aluminum housing Never breaks, cracks, or get soft due to ethanol or water. Stainless Steel mesh element also impervious to ethanol and water, and does a much better job of filtering out debris from the fuel than Paper for fiber ever will. I have two of these filters in two airplanes, my carb bowls are always so clean I could drink wine out of them if I wanted to The filter is at bit expensive at 80 dollars, but it is designed to be cleaned and lasts forever. The Aircraft spruce filter is not anywhere near as expensive as having an engine failure and off field landing with aircraft damage due to clogged or faulty cheap filter that can fail in any number of ways... That alone is more than enough reason for me to get a use a good quality filter in my Kolb. Not everyone knows these facts about filters, there is always something to be learned, but having read this you now have the information you need... If you hurt yourself in the forced landing as well as tear up your plane due to a cheap plastic filter, you will really wish you had been a little smarter... http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257999#257999 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HGRAFF(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Subject: First Flight follow-up,
I Promised a follow-up on getting our Mark III classical into the air for the first time. Well, here is how it went on the second day, a week later. First, we checked the Pitot/static and found badly leaking conditions in both, under the cabin connection to Pitot/static itself. (a 50MPH setting would leak off in 2 seconds) The spring clamps weren't good enough, so we added a safety wire temporary cure. Upon the subsequent flight Stalls changed from 45 to 42, which is very close to the reported stall of a Mark III Classic for sale like ours, at 41 mph. Cruise increased from 45 to 50 but is still limited by engine RPM which I couldn't let go past redline. Ground adjusting the prop is a next task. The Pitot/Static is still located on top of the nose, about 4 inches high. We also raised the right flap by two threads at the rod end, but to no avail at all of mitigating the strong left roll force, which is most annoying. Our engine turns clockwise. Trim tab(s) will be needed. The question remains whether rudder or aileron or both. Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme. Yes, you can get used to it, but is definitely a-typical. I wonder if some other Kolb owners have done things about it, such like adding reflex (Fletcher) trim tabs, as are employed on the Grumman Yankee. It puts some feedback into the elevator, so it won't feel like a helicopter cyclic control. I flew for almost an hour, and there wasn't anything extraordinarily different from the first flight, except my pitch control had acclimated. Did I feel real comfortable, like I usually do in an aircraft? No, not yet! BTW, an alternate pilot, intending to high speed taxi down the runway, got surprised with a takeoff, almost scraped the left wing on the ground then bobbed up & down the length of the fortunately very long runway. (He did not want to make another try at it!). Things to do at this point are: 1 try and test trim tabs. 2. Ground adjust Prop for more pitch. Maybe I can get better climb/cruise performance. I am limited on both with staying under redline RPM. 3. Use of a hand-held (?!) GPS to check on speeds. Herb, Mark IIIc, 246KT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
> Mike You say "A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other airplane". Where did THAT come from ? Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. Not even a half-minute. I've seen LOTS of planes spun, with no fatalities. Even done a few myself, and I'm still here. On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:33 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > > russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: >> >> >> I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by >> itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or bring >> it out of the spin. >> > > > A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other > airplane. Just like the non aviation witness be the best to > determine how an airplane was flying before a crash, don't believe > everything you hear and read. > > The above is not true, a spin can and usually does change a lot > depending on how many turns you go through. This is why many > people do not spin past 3 turns or so, spins have a very bad habit > if tightening up, getting flatter, and doing all sorts of strange > things depending on the airplane and how it is loaded. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257990#257990 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
From: neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Herb Please check that your elevator, horizontal stabilizer, controls all, are b uilt per the plans. Also verify that you are within CG ranges. "Pitch contr ol sensitivity is still extreme" This is not normal, something is not right . Pitch is light but easily controlled. Kolb MKIIICs fly a bit nose low causing a high pressure area where it sound s like you have you static source. You would be better off disconnecting th e static line from the airspeed indicator till you get a better static sour ce. I will try again. It would appear that your wings are poorly rigged. Get th e adjustable wing attachments from New Kolb and you should be able to fix t he "strong left roll" A Kolb MKIIC built to the plans is a nice=C2-flying airplane. It is not b y definition stable. It will divert from level flight in pitch and roll but is very easy to=C2-control. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:52:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Kolb-List: First Flight follow-up, =C2- I Promised a follow-up on getting our Mark III classical=C2-into the air for the first time.=C2-Well, here is how it went on the second day,=C2- a week later.=C2- First, we checked the Pitot/static and found badly leaking conditions in bo th, under the cabin connection to Pitot/static itself. (a 50MPH setting wou ld leak off in 2 seconds) The spring clamps weren't good enough, so we adde d a safety wire temporary cure.=C2-Upon the=C2-subsequent flight Stalls changed from 45 to 42, =C2-which is very close to the reported stall of a Mark III Classic for sale like ours, at 41 mph.=C2- Cruise increased fr om 45 to 50 but is still limited by engine RPM which I couldn't let go past redline. Ground adjusting the prop is a next task. The Pitot/Static is sti ll located on top of the nose, about=C2-4 inches high. We also raised the right flap by two threads at the rod end, but to no avai l at all of mitigating the strong left roll force, which is most annoying. Our engine turns clockwise. Trim tab(s) will be needed. The question remain s whether rudder or aileron or both. Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme. Yes, you can get used to it, bu t is definitely a-typical. I wonder if some other Kolb owners have done thi ngs about it, such like adding reflex (Fletcher) trim tabs, as are employed on=C2- the Grumman Yankee. It puts some feedback into the elevator, so i t won't feel like a helicopter cyclic control. I flew for almost an hour, and there wasn't anything extraordinarily differ ent from the first flight, except my pitch control had acclimated.=C2-=C2 -Did I feel real comfortable, like I usually do in an aircraft?=C2- No, not yet! BTW, an alternate pilot, intending to high speed taxi down the runway, got surprised with a takeoff, almost scraped the left wing on the ground then b obbed up & down=C2-the length of=C2- the=C2-fortunately very long run way. (He did not want to make=C2-another try at it!). Things to do at this point are: 1 try and test trim tabs. 2. Ground adjust Prop for more pitch. Maybe I can get better climb/cruise performance. I am limited on both with staying=C2-under redline RPM. 3. Use of a=C2-hand-held (?!)=C2-GPS to check on speeds. Herb,=C2- Mark IIIc, 246KT ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
From: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush(at)tema.net>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Herb, Where is your horiz. stab. L.E. with respect to the fuselage tube? Kolb has changed this location several times on the Xtra. Don't know about the Classic. I seem to remember John Hauck said once that the pitch felt like "flying on a bubble" and corrected it with a relocation of the L.E. of the stabilizer. I may be wrong. John, any comments? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258028#258028 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 16, 2009
On Aug 16, 2009, at 3:33 PM, russ kinne wrote: > >> Mike > You say "A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any > other airplane". Where did THAT come from ? > Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. Not even a half- > minute. I've seen LOTS of planes spun, with no fatalities. > Even done a few myself, and I'm still here. > > On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:33 PM, JetPilot wrote: > >> >> >> russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by >>> itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or >>> bring >>> it out of the spin. >>> >> >> >> A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other >> airplane. Just like the non aviation witness be the best to >> determine how an airplane was flying before a crash, don't believe >> everything you hear and read. >> >> The above is not true, a spin can and usually does change a lot >> depending on how many turns you go through. This is why many >> people do not spin past 3 turns or so, spins have a very bad habit >> if tightening up, getting flatter, and doing all sorts of strange >> things depending on the airplane and how it is loaded. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >> as you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257990#257990 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Spinning
> >Wouldn't the aileron hold your FF level in a low powered mush? > >I never got a chance to "horse around" with the FF more than I could do in >the traffic patterns of OSH and LAL. Been so long since I flew it I can't >remember, but there was something a little unusual about it when slipping, I >think. I never flew the original with the huge ailerons, only the ones with >smaller ailerons. > John H, I could not hold the wings level in a low powered mush with the original ailerons or the shortened ailerons. After I mounted the VG's, I did not have to worry about picking up a wing with the rudder as the ailerons were much more effective. With the VG's, the FireFly side and forward slips very well with or without flaperons. In a side slip one can hold landing strip alignment into a 20 mph cross wind. My rudder is a little longer than that used in the original design. I did not like the bow over the top of the rudder and so I added that cut off area to the trailing edge. After adding streamlining to the trailing edge, I believe the trailing edge has been displaced two inches to the rear. Some one on the list asked me about how the FireFly reacted to stalling in a side slip during a landing approach. I added that subject to my short list, but I have not gotten around to running the test as I was finishing fuel flow tests with the Victor 1+. When I finish mounting the MZ 34, I will climb to altitude and perform the test. As far as mounting the MZ 34, it is on the cage and everything is mounted. I am building up the start and magneto kill switches and the regulator mounting plate. When this is mounted, I can complete all engine wiring. To save weight, I have stripped out all the old Victor 1+ control guides, as I have only three control functions instead of six. And I have to come up with some way to control low and high speed air mixture controls inside the cockpit. Off Kolb subject, today I purchased a disassembled Thundergull. Some hangar rash, but nothing serious. Will put it into the barn until I get the FireFly back into the air. It looks like a nice way to get back into winter flying. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "Kirkds" <kirkds(at)dishmail.net>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Can the wire downstream from the fuse handle the 20 amps ok? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258048#258048 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: kolb fire star 2 question
From: "dfcpac" <dfcpac(at)aol.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
hi all, i'm new to the list, i just bought a fire star 2. it was set up for a single seat. i put the rear seat in and before i take a passanger i was wondering the weight limit. if i go by listed kolb gross it about 50 lbs? has anyone put a 190lb passenger in the back. i weigh 197. will this work. thanks dan carley Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258049#258049 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
The builder is a commercial electrician so I am assuming the wires were sized correctly. If the wire was sized right, it will handle 20A since that is the size fuse Jabiru recommends. I didn't check to see what size of wire it is but I assume it is ok now since it is not subject to the conditions it experienced when the fuse blew. The most it was ever subjected to was about 15A because that was the size of fuse in it when I bought it and when it blew when the battery was low and all electrical loads were applied. When the flying season tapers off I'll do a total load check and then know for certain its max current draw. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258050#258050 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Date: Aug 16, 2009
> Where is your horiz. stab. L.E. with respect to the fuselage tube? Kolb has changed this location several times on the Xtra. Don't know about the Classic. I seem to remember John Hauck said once that the pitch felt like "flying on a bubble" and corrected it with a relocation of the L.E. of the stabilizer. > > I may be wrong. John, any comments? Hi Rex: I haven't responded to this one because the last two posts of tests flight seem very flakey. There are an awful lot of little things that can be causing all their problems, and I would not know where to start to offer any help. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Spinning
At 12:27 PM 8/16/2009, you wrote: > I have done hundreds of spins in a Cessna 150 Aerobat, but your > position and view in the spin is just insane crazy. Do you do that > often ? How many turns have you done ? That is a really cool > video, I hope you keep making new ones. > >Mike I wouldn't do a spin in anything I wasn't real familiar with flying. I have been flying the same plane for 10 years, and one very much like it for 10 years before that - hours maybe 2,000+ same type. I've seen a Firestar put thru a lot more than a spin....loops, hammerheads etc. but not by me and the wings didn't come off. I had never done a spin before last year - never been in a plane that was spun. I put an extra seat belt on the plane, just for the occasion that's 2 seat belts + the shoulder harnesses .........yee haaa! It's not a bad feeling at all, after you do the first one or two. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "Kirkds" <kirkds(at)dishmail.net>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
With a 20 amp fuse the wire should be 12 AWG minimum. Maybe its only 14 AWG is why he had a 15 amp fuse in it? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258057#258057 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 16, 2009
> The filter is at bit expensive at 80 dollars > > Mike Mike B: If I was a young jet pilot, I probably would have one of these $80.00 fuel filters installed in my old mkIII. Since I am an old retiree, tired, broke, and disoriented, I am going to keep using the same old fuel filter I have used since first installed on my Ultrastar in 1984. Only mod I did to it was get rid of the glass cylinder and replace it with an appropriately sized piece of aluminum tubing. Reason: Glass cylinder cracked first night of installation. I either installed it incorrectly, or it was a bad one. John W used the same type filter with the glass cylinder and never had a problem with it. It has had a lot of fuel pumped through it in the last 4,000 + hours. About once every 50 to 100 hours I check the little nylon element to see how much crud I have collected. Always going to be some in there. If it is not too dirty, I blow it out best I can, and get another 50 to 100 hours out of it. Depending on the length of the next flight, I'll take one or a couple spare elements with me. Easy to change out in a matter of minutes. In 2,800 + 912 engine hours I have had the engine quit twice. Both times in flight. Once in Mississippi and one in Texas. Once because I discovered the 912 will not run on water. The other because the 912 will not run with a fuel filter element that is completely sealed with tiny nylon filiments that were washed out of a new fuel pump hose into my gas tank. In either case, if I had had a D-10 Caterpiller fuel filter system, I would have still had to deal with a forced landing. Reason: Pilot error. Each incident I did not drain fuel into a clear glass container and inspect it for water and contaminents after fueling and prior to takeoff. A good record for engine. Bad record for pilot. ;-( These filters can still be purchased for around $10.00 or less. The filter replacements come in packets of three elements and 6 rubber seals. Takes two 1/2 inch wrenches to disassemble the filters. Wow! Looks like they are up to 13.99 before shipping. The price of inflation. Do a google search and come up with a cheaper source. I post this here so you all can see what I am talking about. http://www.midwayautosupply.com/p-15032-purolator-pro-fuel-fuel-line-filter-for-516-fuel-lines-805.aspx john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Thom, Getting a copy of Bob Nuckolls' book, "The Aeroelectric Connection" and joining his forum here on the Matronics Lists is money and time well spent. He's a great guy and real guru to those doing aircraft electrics. Rick On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Thom Riddle wrote: > > The builder is a commercial electrician so I am assuming the wires were > sized correctly. > > If the wire was sized right, it will handle 20A since that is the size fuse > Jabiru recommends. I didn't check to see what size of wire it is but I > assume it is ok now since it is not subject to the conditions it experienced > when the fuse blew. The most it was ever subjected to was about 15A because > that was the size of fuse in it when I bought it and when it blew when the > battery was low and all electrical loads were applied. > > When the flying season tapers off I'll do a total load check and then know > for certain its max current draw. > > -------- > Thom Riddle > Buffalo, NY > Kolb Slingshot SS-021 > Jabiru 2200A #1574 > Tennessee Prop 64x34 > > A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a > simple system that works. > - John Gaule > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258050#258050 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
At 06:59 PM 8/16/2009, you wrote: > > > > The filter is at bit expensive at 80 dollars >> >>Mike > > >Mike B: > >If I was a young jet pilot, I probably would have one of these >$80.00 fuel filters installed in my old mkIII. Since I am "an old >retiree, tired, broke, and disoriented", Read that "grumpy old man"..... I'm allowed, since I'm getting there too. (Is 58 old?) - & remember that crab diner I bought you at Etowah - before you answer. > I am going to keep using the same old fuel filter I have used > since first installed on my Ultrastar in 1984. Only mod I did to > it was get rid of the glass cylinder and replace it with an > appropriately sized piece of aluminum tubing. Reason: Glass > cylinder cracked first night of installation. I either installed > it incorrectly - snip -or it was a bad one. Yes..... you did - mine never broke either - after 1,000 hrs and it is nice to look at it every time you do a pre-flight and see that clear gas (or some crap in the filter) ...just makes me feel good! >John W used the same type filter with the glass cylinder and never >had a problem with it. > >john h >mkIII And just to correct a pervious post - I have seen someone able to tear the wings off a FireStar "besides you" Unfortunately he didn't fare as well. "Hauck/Hawk" - what a perfect name for this kind of stuff. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
John, Take a look at Jegs or Summit Racing. Lots of options for fuel filters from less that $10 to over $100. Most that offer a barb type fitting are 3/8" but a couple of reducers would take care of that. I think they have the "clearview" type for right around $10. Rick On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 5:59 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > The filter is at bit expensive at 80 dollars > >> >> Mike >> > > > Mike B: > > If I was a young jet pilot, I probably would have one of these $80.00 fuel > filters installed in my old mkIII. Since I am an old retiree, tired, broke, > and disoriented, I am going to keep using the same old fuel filter I have > used since first installed on my Ultrastar in 1984. Only mod I did to it > was get rid of the glass cylinder and replace it with an appropriately sized > piece of aluminum tubing. Reason: Glass cylinder cracked first night of > installation. I either installed it incorrectly, or it was a bad one. John > W used the same type filter with the glass cylinder and never had a problem > with it. It has had a lot of fuel pumped through it in the last 4,000 + > hours. About once every 50 to 100 hours I check the little nylon element to > see how much crud I have collected. Always going to be some in there. If > it is not too dirty, I blow it out best I can, and get another 50 to 100 > hours out of it. Depending on the length of the next flight, I'll take one > or a couple spare elements with me. Easy to change out in a matter of > minutes. > > In 2,800 + 912 engine hours I have had the engine quit twice. Both times > in flight. Once in Mississippi and one in Texas. Once because I discovered > the 912 will not run on water. The other because the 912 will not run with > a fuel filter element that is completely sealed with tiny nylon filiments > that were washed out of a new fuel pump hose into my gas tank. In either > case, if I had had a D-10 Caterpiller fuel filter system, I would have still > had to deal with a forced landing. Reason: Pilot error. Each incident I > did not drain fuel into a clear glass container and inspect it for water and > contaminents after fueling and prior to takeoff. A good record for engine. > Bad record for pilot. ;-( > > These filters can still be purchased for around $10.00 or less. The filter > replacements come in packets of three elements and 6 rubber seals. Takes > two 1/2 inch wrenches to disassemble the filters. > > Wow! Looks like they are up to 13.99 before shipping. The price of > inflation. Do a google search and come up with a cheaper source. I post > this here so you all can see what I am talking about. > > > http://www.midwayautosupply.com/p-15032-purolator-pro-fuel-fuel-line-filter-for-516-fuel-lines-805.aspx > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Possum: I caught that previously, but kept my mouth shut. Didn't want to hurt your feelings and watch you get your panties in a wad over it. ;-) Yes, that has been a while ago, over 19 years now. Time is flying. Was a sad day. Happened about two months after mine, May 1990, I think. Well...we have done a lot of flying since then. What a guy he was!!! Wish he was still around. john h - My call sign in RVN was Hawk 36. mkIII And just to correct a pervious post - I have seen someone able to tear the wings off a FireStar "besides you" Unfortunately he didn't fare as well. "Hauck/Hawk" - what a perfect name for this kind of stuff. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 16, 2009
Most of my engine instruments come from Summit. My landing light came from Summit. I posted info on the Purolator for the benefit of those that did not know about that type filter. My old one is still good. I am so happy they still make them and the elements. Mine has 5/16 barbs, but pushes in 1/4 Gates neoprene line pretty easy. A lot of folks on this List like clear fuel line so they can see their fuel. I use black neoprene for fuel, but thinking about getting some clear tubing for my oil lines. Be nice to have something to watch. ;-) Thanks, Rick G. john h mkIII John, Take a look at Jegs or Summit Racing. Lots of options for fuel filters from less that $10 to over $100. Most that offer a barb type fitting are 3/8" but a couple of reducers would take care of that. I think they have the "clearview" type for right around $10. Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: kolb fire star 2 question
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 16, 2009
I weigh 185 and have taken passengers that out weigh me by a little bit. I have been told there are 5 and seven rib wings and have been advised to have the 7 rib wings if you carry passengers. I forgot what gross is, I know my normal 129 pound passenger is not close. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258128#258128 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Oldman" <aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Date: Aug 17, 2009
My MK111c is not difficult in pitch, to get it to porpus you would need to put in a lot of control movement before it gave you any problem. It will peal off to the left if trimmed to fly hands off and you let the stick go. It is not a sudden or violent move to the left. If you fly solo from the right seat it will head that way hands off, two up it will stay straight . If you trim the aircraft for hands off flight and trickle off the power it will drop the nose in a stall, then when it picks a bit of speed up it will lift the nose again until it runs out of air speed and the process is repeated. It will do this with no pilot input,you will of course loose some altitude ,nothing happens fast ,nothing unprodictable happens. Not to be tried close to the ground. I am not a builder, but do agree with those that suggest you need to check the CG and rigging. These are not difficult machines to fly with the correct training, in my experiance they do nothing suddenly or violently .99% of my flying has been in ultralight aircraft so may be my expectations are different from those with a GA back ground. Regards Downunder MK111c 400hrs 503 ----- Original Message ----- From: neilsenrm(at)comcast.net To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 7:41 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First Flight follow-up, Herb Please check that your elevator, horizontal stabilizer, controls all, are built per the plans. Also verify that you are within CG ranges. "Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme" This is not normal, something is not right. Pitch is light but easily controlled. Kolb MKIIICs fly a bit nose low causing a high pressure area where it sounds like you have you static source. You would be better off disconnecting the static line from the airspeed indicator till you get a better static source. I will try again. It would appear that your wings are poorly rigged. Get the adjustable wing attachments from New Kolb and you should be able to fix the "strong left roll" A Kolb MKIIC built to the plans is a nice flying airplane. It is not by definition stable. It will divert from level flight in pitch and roll but is very easy to control. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF(at)aol.com To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:52:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Kolb-List: First Flight follow-up, I Promised a follow-up on getting our Mark III classical into the air for the first time. Well, here is how it went on the second day, a week later. First, we checked the Pitot/static and found badly leaking conditions in both, under the cabin connection to Pitot/static itself. (a 50MPH setting would leak off in 2 seconds) The spring clamps weren't good enough, so we added a safety wire temporary cure. Upon the subsequent flight Stalls changed from 45 to 42, which is very close to the reported stall of a Mark III Classic for sale like ours, at 41 mph. Cruise increased from 45 to 50 but is still limited by engine RPM which I couldn't let go past redline. Ground adjusting the prop is a next task. The Pitot/Static is still located on top of the nose, about 4 inches high. We also raised the right flap by two threads at the rod end, but to no avail at all of mitigating the strong left roll force, which is most annoying. Our engine turns clockwise. Trim tab(s) will be needed. The question remains whether rudder or aileron or both. Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme. Yes, you can get used to it, but is definitely a-typical. I wonder if some other Kolb owners have done things about it, such like adding reflex (Fletcher) trim tabs, as are employed on the Grumman Yankee. It puts some feedback into the elevator, so it won't feel like a helicopter cyclic control. I flew for almost an hour, and there wasn't anything extraordinarily different from the first flight, except my pitch control had acclimated. Did I feel real comfortable, like I usually do in an aircraft? No, not yet! BTW, an alternate pilot, intending to high speed taxi down the runway, got surprised with a takeoff, almost scraped the left wing on the ground then bobbed up & down the length of the fortunately very long runway. (He did not want to make another try at it!). Things to do at this point are: 1 try and test trim tabs. 2. Ground adjust Prop for more pitch. Maybe I can get better climb/cruise performance. I am limited on both with staying under redline RPM. 3. Use of a hand-held (?!) GPS to check on speeds. Herb, Mark IIIc, 246KT ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Cowan" <tc1917(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: clear filters
Date: Aug 17, 2009
My experience has shown there is or was three types of clear glass filters to which you were speaking. One type has a flat cast or alum stem in the inside which screws up into the cap. The flat threads in there will quickly disintegrate and will come apart with vibration. The second is more scare with more meat and I dont know how well that hangs in. The third and best has a round threaded hollow rod, chrome plated I think and has holes to wire tie the filter twister nut to keep it in place. That is the best. Had a couple of the flat ones come apart if you tighten them much. I always wire tie the filter inside just in case. Ted Cowan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Rick, Thanks for the lead to the book and list. I'll check it out. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258153#258153 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Blumax008(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
I wasn't going to get into this possibly volitile conversation about fuel filters but I had to add my two cents worth...for what that's worth & something tells me it ain't going to be worth much. Been flying these contraptions since summer of '78 or '79...hell, I forgot but it's been a long damn time. Everything from a Sachs, to a Yamaha 15hp (what a piece of crap that was), to a Cuyuna (another piece of crap), to the wonderful world of Rotax. I never gave an ounce of attention to fuel filters & never had any trouble with fuel filters. So what in the heck is all this talk about? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 17, 2009
This talk is really about ethanol. I never had any fuel filter problems either... until now. More problems will crop up. BB On 17, Aug 2009, at 9:27 AM, Blumax008(at)aol.com wrote: > I wasn't going to get into this possibly volitile conversation > about fuel filters but I had to add my two cents worth...for what > that's worth & something tells me it ain't going to be worth much. > > Been flying these contraptions since summer of '78 or '79...hell, I > forgot but it's been a long damn time. Everything from a Sachs, to > a Yamaha 15hp (what a piece of crap that was), to a Cuyuna (another > piece of crap), to the wonderful world of Rotax. > > I never gave an ounce of attention to fuel filters & never had any > trouble with fuel filters. So what in the heck is all this talk about? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Bill C? I reckon some of us have not been as fortunate as you have after all these years. I quit using paper element fuel filters when I started building and flying Kolbs in 1984. Didn't take too long to find out a couple drops of moisture caused the element to expand and shut off the fuel. Most of the time not enough to kill the Cuyuna completely, but enough to prevent maintaining altitude. I remember flying back to my cow pasture in Titus, Alabama, from a cow pasture between Woodville, Florida, and Natural Bridge. Can't remember that gentleman's name that used to let me land there when I was visiting Brother Jim in Woodville. Anyhow, was following I-10, in my Ultrastar, between Quincy and Marianna, FL. Beautiful day, wind in my face, watching the cars and 18 wheelers passing me, not far below, when the little Cuyuna started losing power. I headed for the nearest tree studded pasture full of horses. Got on the ground, wiggled wires, scratched my head, got the Cuyuna restarted, took off, and headed up the interstate for Alabama. Next day, at Gantt International Airport, I was still scratching my head. I had made 5 takeoffs, followed immediately by 5 forced landings. Took me that long to get around to changing out the little paper filament fuel filter. Problem solved until the next time it got a little moisture in it. Discovered the fuel filter I am using today. No more moisture and fuel filter problems. I still use paper elements in diesel and gas powered tractors, trucks and lawn mowers. Guess they have updated their paper elements to be moisture tolerable. Still don't want to use one in my mkIII. What kind of fuel filter is Bill C using? Maybe I ought to get one of those. john h mkIII I never gave an ounce of attention to fuel filters & never had any trouble with fuel filters. So what in the heck is all this talk about? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
John Hauck wrote: > > > I quit using paper element fuel filters when I started building and flying Kolbs in 1984. Didn't take too long to find out a couple drops of moisture caused the element to expand and shut off the fuel. > > So you have also had an engine failure due to a cheap fuel filters, this is a very common story as a previously pointed out. One of your Rotax 912 failures may have also very well been avoided by using the better Aircraft Sprue fuel filter, given the much larger filter area, and the dual filter screens, those fibers that completely clogged your filter may have not completely clogged the Aircraft Spruce filter. As I stated before, a lot of filter area is important, especially in an airplane. John, you seem to have found a filter that is better than the plastic ones, but not as good as it should be. Here is the problem, the design of the filter you have has changed over the years, that model has been made in China and is now total garbage, I have heard of the threads stripping, leaks, and other problems. Those buying your filter now may be in for a big surprise. Those buying the little plastic filters from the auto store are even at greater risk. For those that want to be Guinea Pigs, keep using those plastic and other inexpensive filters as the Chinese find ways to make them even cheaper every year. As far as the cost, we all make our choices, I am not some super rich guy that can just go out and throw money around either. I make my choices, and the 80 dollar filter is a priority for me, I did without other things I would have liked in order to buy these filters. As I said before, the 80 dollars is cheaper than any forced landing that results in aircraft damage, and its the bargain of the century when compared to hurting yourself and going to the hospital. We have seen a lot of aircraft damage and even a couple guys seriously hurt due to poor fuel system design over the years here. There is a good reason as to why the EAA says that about 50 % of engine failures in experimental airplanes are caused by fuel system problems. I have flown with cheap fuel filters and been lucky, but I continually research and learn especially when I read about dangers and problems such as this one. I am honest enough to know when I have made a mistake even if I have been lucky and not paid any consequences. I am also smart enough to learn from and correct mistakes I have made. There are many out there that will take good advice, and there are always a few here on the list like Bill that like to talk big on the list, and cant stand to be told something by a younger guy that has done his research and knows what he is talking about. That is fine, they are free to make their own choices, and will have no one but themselves to blame when the odds catch up to them. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258211#258211 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Thom, Getting a copy of Bob Nuckolls' book, "The Aeroelectric Connection" and joining his forum here on the Matronics Lists is money and time well spent. > Thom knowing the load capability of his system would not have made any difference here, as one does not know how much an almost dead battery is going to draw. This incident was not about numbers, it was about the poor judgment of using a landing light during the day while trying to charge a dead battery... No amount of numbers and aero electric books will save someone from this type of bad choice. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258213#258213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
The anti trim tabs to fix your pitch instability are one of the worst ideas I have heard in a long time. A number of people, including myself have told you that a properly rigged and balanced Kolb is very easy to control in pitch. This point seems to have been totally ignored by you. I also gave you very good advice on rigging your wings correctly to correct the rolling tendency, and again you have ignored good advice and are talking about more trim tabs to hide the problem instead of correcting it. I could give you some good information on Prop pitch, but I think I would be wasting my time given that you have ignored the other advice I took the time to give you. If you want the advice, let me know and I will take the time to post it, but I wont waste my time giving advice to someone that ignores it. Given your attitude towards solving your problems, and ignoring the good advice you have gotten here, I think there is a high possibility of you crashing and destroying your airplane, and I just hope you don't take any passengers with you when you do it. I also hope you have anyone that thinks about flying your Kolb read these two threads first, they should know what they are getting into. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258218#258218 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 17, 2009
> So you have also had an engine failure due to a cheap fuel filters > > Mike Mike B: I would think you would have gotten the hint from my post that I am pretty happy with a fuel filter I have been flying with since 1984, and well over 4,000 hours. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Date: Aug 17, 2009
> The anti trim tabs to fix your pitch instability are one of the worst > ideas I have heard in a long time. A number of people, including myself > have told you that a properly rigged and balanced Kolb is very easy to > control in pitch. This point seems to have been totally ignored by you. > > I also gave you very good advice on rigging your wings correctly to > correct the rolling tendency, and again you have ignored good advice and > are talking about more trim tabs to hide the problem instead of correcting > it. > > I could give you some good information on Prop pitch, but I think I would > be wasting my time given that you have ignored the other advice I took the > time to give you. If you want the advice, let me know and I will take the > time to post it, but I wont waste my time giving advice to someone that > ignores it. > > Given your attitude towards solving your problems, and ignoring the good > advice you have gotten here, I think there is a high possibility of you > crashing and destroying your airplane, and I just hope you don't take any > passengers with you when you do it. I also hope you have anyone that > thinks about flying your Kolb read these two threads first, they should > know what they are getting into. > > Mike Mike B: I never give advice on this List. I am not qualified to give another pilot/builder advice over the internet when I am not absolutely familiar with what his problem is, what he is trying to do, or if he is really getting the description of the problem, etc., to me accurately and I am understanding him accurately. I just don't do it. I don't want the responsibility I led someone the wrong direction and they got hurt because of advice. The only thing I feel good about doing is sharing my experience, good and bad, then letting folks decide for themselves if they want to do it my way, or try something else. I leave that up to them. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jabiru powered Kolbs
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Mr. Jet Pilot, Please note that my original post was directed to those who operate Jabiru Powered Kolbs. I hope that those few of us who do operate Jabiru Powered Kolbs can avoid this situation in the future. THAT was the purpose of the post. To quote you.... This incident was not about numbers, it was about the poor judgment of using a landing light during the day while trying to charge a dead battery... Following is an excerpt of what I said in my initial post on this subject: ...you may have already learned what I learned recently. If not then listen up for it is worth knowing.... NOTE that this was directed to Jabiru operators who may not yet have had a dead battery. Then I told about what I learned from my experience. You can call that POOR JUDGMENT if you want. I call it learning by doing. NOW I have the knowledge acquired on THIS SYSTEM to know not to do that again on this system. If I do it again, it could be fairly called Poor Judgment or Stupidity or Bad Memory. Note that, as I said before, I've never had this happen on any other machine I've ever operated, either earthbound or airborne. Based on those many decades of past experience, what happened surprised me. I've experienced many dead battery situations in which a heavy electrical load was applied while the alternator or generator was supplying virtually all the power due to nearly dead battery and NEVER has this occurred in my experience, up until now. In my opinion your post showed POOR TASTE, was JUDGMENTAL (there's that word again) and without foundation. "That is all I have to say about that." - Forest Gump -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258230#258230 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JAMES BEARD" <JAMESBEARD305(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Dale.. nice post. Being a newbie myself, lurking for years, I have not had the experience of being ridiculed, but instead ignored... wonder which hurts more. I've sent e-mails and questions to several of the gurus, without response.. I guess they don't read their mail. Jim "invisable" Beard MK lll X under construction, Arizona. (BTW, got my private SEL in '76) ----- Original Message ----- From: dalewhelan<mailto:dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:49 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience > Hi guys, I am relatively new this forum. I started flying sailplanes in 1974 went to general aviation in 1978, Flew hanggliders in 1982,got my Kolb in 2008. Sounds like I have been flying for 35 years and you should acknowledge me as a sky god. Here is the rest of the story As of 1/29/1981 I had logged 7 hours the past year I have logged about 100 hours. I have met people that spent years and hours flying around the field. I think they still lack experience. I have been ridiculed by people on this site when I was looking for answers. I have talked to somebody in the industry about this site. The opinion seems to be that there is good info to be found here. The bad thing is the way new people are often treated on this site. The treatment is such that newcomers could be driven away from an informative site and possibly a great occupation. I have received email from forum members talking about the elitist mentality they have run into. To me it seemed like financial suicide for an industry insider to post on this site. The bickering could be directed at their business and customers lost. Sometimes I read the posts and it seems that people are abusive to others that don't bow to them, often through the use of sarcasm. It seems some folks want you to bow to them as the sky god even if they are wrong.While I enjoy the varied view and opinions, I am not fond of publically calling someone who has a different opinion an idiot. Johns comment about hours vs years seems accurate. If you look for more meaning than what he said you will find it, just realize those are your words that were added. I actively road raced motorcycles for 25 years. Won numerous races, have close to a dozen championships, have thousands of miles on road courses. I had done more after 3 years than people with 20 years of riding and lots more miles due to the environment I rode in. Two years ago a 14 year old girl beat me in a road race. I was riding an 80 horsepower 250, she was on a 45 horsepower 125. People with airplanes are more fun to talk to than people with computers. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257809#257809 .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257809#257809> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List igator?Kolb-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JAMES BEARD" <JAMESBEARD305(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Billet: a short bar of iron or steel--- Webster. Had to look it up myself! ----- Original Message ----- From: Blumax008(at)aol.com<mailto:Blumax008(at)aol.com> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 447 problem In a message dated 8/14/2009 11:26:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung(at)brigham.net writes: The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce. This award winning high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable Filter is USA made, high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable superb flow filters. For those who want and appreciate quality, these high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable filter will take you to the highest level of filtration performance. Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A... "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?" ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List igator?Kolb-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
James, People are usually pretty good about helping new guys here. If you post a question chances are probably pretty good you will get some good answers. Of course, some questions, etc. fall through the cracks, but its not intentional. Welcome to the list, and I hope you come back often. Lots of good information here, and its easier to learn from all of our mistakes rather than make your own :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258278#258278 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinning
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
[quote="russ(at)rkiphoto.com"] > Mike > You say "A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any > Russ, What I meant to type was " A spin into the ground is usually fatal ". I got interrupted while typing that and left out a critical part. I have done hundreds of spins also, am I am still here :) I haven't had the balls to spin my MK III though, I fly it pretty gently and I think I will pass on spinning it... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258283#258283 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: hours vs experience
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Hi Jim B/Gang: Do you have a copy of the "Guru List"? I haven't seen it and was curious who is on it. Jim, if you weren't invisible, maybe those Guru's could see you. PVT SEL 1976. Jim B has me beat by 14 years. I didn't get my PVT ticket until 1990. I was a late bloomer. Didn't need it until I built the MKIII. Started flying at 29 in the Army. That was middle age or better for that environment. Where are you located in AZ? I am heading West for my annual surface trek in two weeks. Plan to be on the road from two to three months, or until I get tired and ready to head to the house. Last year I split the State from north to south. Might be in your area. I cruised by Dale W's place, missing him by a couple miles, last year, but didn't know it. Plan on seeing as many of my friends as I can on the trip, from Oregon, south and east. Don't worry, I bring my own bed, bath, kitchen, TV, and dirt toys. Might need to borrow some tools though. ;-) john h mkIII I've sent e-mails and questions to several of the gurus, without response.. I guess they don't read their mail. Jim "invisable" Beard MK lll X under construction, Arizona. (BTW, got my private SEL in '76) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: Aug 17, 2009
I can only comment on what I read -- i.e, what you say. On Aug 17, 2009, at 6:55 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > [quote="russ(at)rkiphoto.com"] >> Mike >> You say "A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any >> > > > Russ, > > What I meant to type was " A spin into the ground is usually fatal > ". I got interrupted while typing that and left out a critical part. > > I have done hundreds of spins also, am I am still here :) I > haven't had the balls to spin my MK III though, I fly it pretty > gently and I think I will pass on spinning it... > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258283#258283 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary" <kolber2(at)atcyber.net>
Subject: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
I have been reading the posts on fuel filters were more than just casual interest. Just recently, immediately after take-off in my Mark IIIc, I smelled a very strong fuel odor. I elected to make an emergency landing. By the time I got down, the fuel odor was almost overwhelming. I got out to find gasoline sloshing around the bottom of the fuselage cage. However, to my surprise, the source of the leak was not immediately apparent. I looked throughout the entire fuel system, expecting to find a disconnected hose or something. Nothing obvious. So I soaked up the gas, dried things out and turned on the electric fuel pump. What I noticed was that the end cap was lifting up on the glass fuel filter when the fuel was under pressure. The type filter I had installed looks very similar, if not identical to the one John Hauck referenced in his recent e-mail. (Ref link below). http://www.midwayautosupply.com/p-15032-purolator-pro-fuel-fuel-line-filter- for-516-fuel-lines-805.aspx As soon as I turned the pump off, the top end cap on the filter reseated to where visually nothing appeared amiss - due to proximity of the hose clamps holding the filter assembly together. (I had the filter installed vertically in the fuel line.) What happened is the cast aluminum support that runs through the filter (threaded on one end and holding the two filter end caps together) broke in half. I'm curious as to whether anyone else has had this type experience with the glass type filter. I had always liked the idea of being able to visually examine the filter on each pre-flight although I had heard of instances of the glass breaking. John's fix of replacing the glass cylinder with an aluminum tube addresses that problem, but would not address the type failure I had. It could certainly be that the support rod was over-torqued. I am not sure, as I had not disassembled the filter since acquiring the aircraft from the previous owner. (Visually, the filter was always clean inside.) Needless to say, I've been looking around at numerous filter designs. I therefore appreciate everyone's input on subject. Mike, I especially appreciate your input on the one offered by Aircraft Spruce. The Kolb List is a valuable resource of information that has really been great. Thanks to all who contribute. Gary Siegrist Mark IIIc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
Gary S/Gang: One of the benefits of building your own airplane is you know how it is built and what goes into it. I can assure you I have a good filter or I would never have attempted to fly to places my little mkIII has carried me. Heck, I wouldn't leave the ground if I had any doubt. I doubt I will ever buy an airplane that someone else builds, but if I did I think I would take a close look at a lot of things that might be marginal, especially things that are not easily inspected. Buying a used airplane can't be much different that buying a used car, truck, or especially an antique tractor. You would not believe the stuff folks hide in antique tractors from the unwary buyer. Might be a good idea to include fuel pump on and inspect the fuel system as part of your preflight inspection. BTW: My fuel filter requires just a little bit of torque to make it snug enough not to leak and not chance breaking it with a heavy hand. john h mkIII and unwary antique tractor buyer I have been reading the posts on fuel filters were more than just casual interest. Gary Siegrist Mark IIIc ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2009
I may be the only one on this list that DIDN'T know the truth of this and have been laboring under a false myth for a long time. For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in short order so we should be careful when fueling around our polycarbonate canopies, doors and windows. A couple months ago, I was fueling the RANS before my partner broke it, and spilled a good bit of 87 AKI unleaded gasoline on the polycarbonate windshield. I uttered a couple of expletives and as quickly as possible I cleaned up the mess. Much to my surprise, the fuel had zero affect on the polycarbonate. I'm looking for a better way to fuel my slingshot now and decided to research the chemical compatibility of various types of tubing and ran across this website... http://www.coleparmer.com/TechInfo/ChemComp.asp which enables you to search on various chemicals and materials for their compatibility. It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeating (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact polycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline. Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that. Learning stuff every day. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258304#258304 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Date: Aug 17, 2009
> Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that. > > Learning stuff every day. > > -------- > Thom Riddle Thom R/Gang: I am not very well educated in gasoline vs polycarbonate, but have ruined some Lexan with spilled and blown gasoline while refueling. I have never done an actual test, but have accidentally tested. Some gas does and some gas doesn't. Last time I ruined Lexan was refueling from 5 gal cans in North Pole, AK. Switching from one can to another with my 6' vinyl hose, that was stuck in the top of the wing in the fuel filler, I accidentally dropped the other end which swung around and slung gas on the left rear quarter window and left door. Promptly attacked the Lexan causing large spider web cracks where it made contact. Quite possibly could have been an additive, like anti icing, or something of that nature, that did the damage. I know that MEK will ruin it, as will Super Glue, Loctite blue. That's is all that I can think of at the moment. Once it is done, it is all over. Time to replace. BTW: It was 91 octane auto fuel that did the job. There have been other occassions that I can not remember the details. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
That illustrates another problem we face with chinese clones. One may believe he has bought the same item from a different (maybe even the same) supplier. -but those ingenious folks in the East manage to somewhat duplicate nearly anything made. Among the items I bought replacements for was the fuel pressure regulator. Looked the same as the one I had been using for 5 years. I took it apart to compare and it was different (and inferior) internally. No doubt there is more than one maker of those cylinder filters. caveat emptor. BB On 17, Aug 2009, at 7:38 PM, Gary wrote: > I have been reading the posts on fuel filters were more than just > casual interest. Just recently, immediately after take-off in my > Mark IIIc, I smelled a very strong fuel odor. I elected to make an > emergency landing. By the time I got down, the fuel odor was > almost overwhelming. I got out to find gasoline sloshing around > the bottom of the fuselage cage. However, to my surprise, the > source of the leak was not immediately apparent. I looked > throughout the entire fuel system, expecting to find a disconnected > hose or something. Nothing obvious. So I soaked up the gas, dried > things out and turned on the electric fuel pump. What I noticed > was that the end cap was lifting up on the glass fuel filter when > the fuel was under pressure. The type filter I had installed looks > very similar, if not identical to the one John Hauck referenced in > his recent e-mail. (Ref link below). > > http://www.midwayautosupply.com/p-15032-purolator-pro-fuel-fuel- > line-filter-for-516-fuel-lines-805.aspx > > As soon as I turned the pump off, the top end cap on the filter > reseated to where visually nothing appeared amiss - due to > proximity of the hose clamps holding the filter assembly together. > (I had the filter installed vertically in the fuel line.) What > happened is the cast aluminum support that runs through the filter > (threaded on one end and holding the two filter end caps together) > broke in half. I=92m curious as to whether anyone else has had this > type experience with the glass type filter. I had always liked the > idea of being able to visually examine the filter on each pre- > flight although I had heard of instances of the glass breaking. > John=92s fix of replacing the glass cylinder with an aluminum tube > addresses that problem, but would not address the type failure I > had. It could certainly be that the support rod was over- > torqued. I am not sure, as I had not disassembled the filter since > acquiring the aircraft from the previous owner. (Visually, the > filter was always clean inside.) Needless to say, I=92ve been > looking around at numerous filter designs. I therefore appreciate > everyone=92s input on subject. Mike, I especially appreciate your > input on the one offered by Aircraft Spruce. The Kolb List is a > valuable resource of information that has really been great. > Thanks to all who contribute. > > Gary Siegrist > > Mark IIIc > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
JC Whitney is notorious for cheap imitations. I bought a handful of their look alike filters for other applications. They were all junk. As Brother Ted Cowan so eloquently described, couldn't get them to tighten down straight enough to make the seal. Cheaper and safer to stuff'em in the trash can than to try and get a refund. john h mkIII No doubt there is more than one maker of those cylinder filters. caveat emptor. BB ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
From: zeprep251(at)aol.com
Does anyone else use this filter under pressure or are most in the draw side ahead of the pump? =C2-G.Aman MK-3C Jabiru 2200A 465hrs -----Original Message----- From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 8:42 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Filter Failure That illustrates another problem we face with chinese clones. =C2-One ma y believe he has bought the same item from a different (maybe even the sam e) supplier. -but those ingenious folks in the East manage to somewhat duplicate nearly anything made. =C2-Among the items I bought replacements for was the fu el pressure regulator. =C2-Looked the same as the one I had been using for 5 years. =C2-I took it apart to compare and it was different (and infer ior) internally. No doubt there is more than one maker of those cylinder filters. =C2-cav eat emptor. BB On 17, Aug 2009, at 7:38 PM, Gary wrote: I have been reading the posts on fuel filters were more than just casual interest.=C2- Just recently, immediately after take-off in my Mark IIIc , I smelled a very strong fuel odor.=C2- I elected to make an emergency landing.=C2- By the time I got down, the fuel odor was almost overwhelm ing.=C2- I got out to find gasoline sloshing around the bottom of the fu selage cage.=C2- However, to my surprise, the source of the leak was not immediately apparent.=C2- I looked throughout the entire fuel system, expecting to find a disconnected hose or something.=C2- Nothing obvious.=C2- So I soaked up the gas, dried thi ngs out and turned on the electric fuel pump.=C2- What I noticed was tha t the end cap was lifting up on the glass fuel filter when the fuel was un der pressure.=C2- The type filter I had installed looks very similar, if not identical to the one John Hauck referenced in his recent e-mail.=C2 - (Ref link below).=C2- =C2- http://www.midwayautosupply.com/p-15032-purolator-pro-fuel-fuel-line-filte r-for-516-fuel-lines-805.aspx As soon as I turned the pump off, the top end cap on the filter reseated to where visually nothing appeared amiss - due to proximity of the hose clamps holding the filter assembly together.=C2- (I had the filter inst alled vertically in the fuel line.)=C2- =C2-What happened is the cast aluminum support that runs through the filter (threaded on one end and ho lding the two filter end caps together) broke in half.=C2- I=99m curious as to whether anyone else has had this type experience with the glass type filter.=C2- I had always liked the idea of being able to vis ually examine the filter on each pre-flight although =C2-I had heard of instances of the glass breaking.=C2- =C2-John=99s fix of replac ing the glass cylinder with an aluminum tube addresses that problem, but would not address the type failure I had.=C2- =C2-=C2-It could cert ainly be that the support rod was over-torqued.=C2- I am not sure, as I had not disassembled the filter since acquiring the aircraft from the pre vious owner.=C2- =C2- (Visually, the filter was always clean inside.)=C2- Needless to say, I =99ve been looking around at numerous filter designs.=C2- I theref ore appreciate everyone=99s input on subject.=C2- Mike, I especial ly appreciate your input on the one offered by Aircraft Spruce.=C2- The Kolb List is a valuable resource of information that has really been grea t.=C2- Thanks to all who contribute. Gary Siegrist Mark IIIc =C2- style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Kolb-List blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.c om/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======3 D======================== ===== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
If you are using auto parts stores for a source NAPA tends to have more honorable stock. Auto zone and Advance tend to have more junk. (NAPA counter man humorously called them the "Dead Zone" BB On 17, Aug 2009, at 8:52 PM, John Hauck wrote: > JC Whitney is notorious for cheap imitations. > > I bought a handful of their look alike filters for other > applications. They were all junk. As Brother Ted Cowan so > eloquently described, couldn't get them to tighten down straight > enough to make the seal. Cheaper and safer to stuff'em in the > trash can than to try and get a refund. > > john h > mkIII > No doubt there is more than one maker of those cylinder filters. > caveat emptor. > BB > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 17, 2009
I'm pulling through mine, just ahead of the engine driven fuel pump. I would not hesitate to mount it either pressure or vacuum side of pump. My Facet Electronic Fuel Pump is mounted below the fuel tank. When it is operating it is pushing fuel to the filter, then the engine driven pump. It's a good idea to include fuel pump on, pressurize the system, then check to make sure there are no leaks. Seals on the filter I use will leak if the filter is not properly reassembled. Sometimes the filter element kits come with square shoulder o ring seals and sometime round. I think the square works with less chance of rolling and causing a leak. I don't want to sound like it is a difficult job to reassemble the filter correctly, but I am ham fisted enough to screw it up if I don't pay enough attention to what I am doing. john h mkIII Does anyone else use this filter under pressure or are most in the draw side ahead of the pump? G.Aman MK-3C Jabiru 2200A 465hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2009
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Thom Riddle wrote: > > I may be the only one on this list that DIDN'T know the truth of this and have been laboring under a false myth for a long time. For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in short order so we should be careful when fueling around our polycarbonate canopies, doors and windows. > > A couple months ago, I was fueling the RANS before my partner broke it, and spilled a good bit of 87 AKI unleaded gasoline on the polycarbonate windshield. I uttered a couple of expletives and as quickly as possible I cleaned up the mess. Much to my surprise, the fuel had zero affect on the polycarbonate. > > I'm looking for a better way to fuel my slingshot now and decided to research the chemical compatibility of various types of tubing and ran across this website... > > http://www.coleparmer.com/TechInfo/ChemComp.asp > > which enables you to search on various chemicals and materials for their compatibility. It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeating (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact polycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline. > > Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that. > > Learning stuff every day. > > -------- > Thom Riddle > Buffalo, NY > Kolb Slingshot SS-021 > Jabiru 2200A #1574 > Tennessee Prop 64x34 You might want to get a second opinion.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Thom My fuel filler is in the middle of a top side polycarbonate window of my MK IIIC. I'm on my third window and=C2-second side door from spilling auto a nd 100LL on it. If you don't spill much and you mop it up quickly it may be OK but not allways. Trust me I have been there many times it happens farly quickly. I fill the tanks a bit too fast and they spit back over my window s. Within say 10-20 seconds after the spill there will be spider cracks=C2 -over a good portion of the window. Again I might be wrong so get cup or so of fuel and dump it on=C2-YOUR po lycarbonate and let it set.=C2-Tell us know how it turns out. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:19:42 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Kolb-List: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster I may be the only one on this list that DIDN'T know the truth of this and h ave been laboring under a false myth for a long time. =C2-For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in short order so we sh ould be careful when fueling around our polycarbonate canopies, doors and w indows. A couple months ago, I was fueling the RANS before my partner broke it, and spilled a good bit of 87 AKI unleaded gasoline on the polycarbonate windsh ield. I uttered a couple of expletives and as quickly as possible I cleaned up the mess. Much to my surprise, the fuel had zero affect on the polycarb onate. I'm looking for a better way to fuel my slingshot now and decided to resear ch the chemical compatibility of various types of tubing and ran across thi s website... http://www.coleparmer.com/TechInfo/ChemComp.asp which enables you to search on various chemicals and materials for their co mpatibility. It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeatin g (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact p olycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline. Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that. Learning stuff every day. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simp le system that works. =C2-=C2-- John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258304#258304 =========== =========== MS - =========== e - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
John, the website I posted a link to does show some of the other chemicals you mentioned as being bad for polycarbonate but not gasoline, either unleaded or leaded. I also checked ethanol and it was rated B-good. Thought I can't see that Cole-Parmer has anything to gain by mis-leading folks, as we all know, just because we see it on a website does not mean it is true, so, I'd say it is time for me to do an experiment. Nothing like empirical evidence to educate and inform. I still have the windshield that I replaced on our Allegro when it was damaged mechanically (not chemically) and some drop from the sheet I bought to replace it with. According to the Allegro manufacturer the material is polycarbonate with the brand name of Makrolon which is manufactured by Bayer Material Sciences. The sheet I replaced it with was also the same brand of polycarbonate which I purchased from McMaster-Carr. I plan to test both using 93 AKI auto-gas and also with 100LL. If anyone wants to duplicate this test with a known piece of Lexan (GE product) it would be educational to us all. My plan is to cut narrow strips of each and soak one end in each of the fuels overnight or longer and photograph them afterwards for all to see. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258384#258384 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: jvanlaak(at)aol.com
Been listening to this with interest.? Years ago I had an RV-3 with a lexan windshield and fuselage gas tank filled just in front of it.? The lexan was maybe 15 years old with lots of microscratches from being cleaned and from the stress of being bent fairly aggressively.? One day I splashed a little autofuel on it and it became almost completely opaque.? I was told of this incompatibility which was certainly demonstrated but also think the age and microcracks contributed to it.? Also, in another project I had used a form of lexan that had a coating on it to prevent scratches.? I suspect that polycarbonate comes in many brands and forms, some with coatings and some without, that may have different susceptibilities to chemicals as well as the age and stress factors. -----Original Message----- From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com> Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2009 6:39 am Subject: Kolb-List: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster John, the website I posted a link to does show some of the other chemicals you mentioned as being bad for polycarbonate but not gasoline, either unleaded or leaded. I also checked ethanol and it was rated B-good. Thought I can't see that Cole-Parmer has anything to gain by mis-leading folks, as we all know, just because we see it on a website does not mean it is true, so, I'd say it is time for me to do an experiment. Nothing like empirical evidence to educate and inform. I still have the windshield that I replaced on our Allegro when it was damaged mechanically (not chemically) and some drop from the sheet I bought to replace it with. According to the Allegro manufacturer the material is polycarbonate with the brand name of Makrolon which is manufactured by Bayer Material Sciences. The sheet I replaced it with was also the same brand of polycarbonate which I purchased from McMaster-Carr. I plan to test both using 93 AKI auto-gas and also with 100LL. If anyone wants to duplicate this test with a known piece of Lexan (GE product) it would be educational to us all. My plan is to cut narrow strips of each and soak one end in each of the fuels overnight or longer and photograph them afterwards for all to see. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258384#258384 Been l ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Date: Aug 18, 2009
It will peal off to the left if trimmed to fly hands off >> What you need is the Hauck patented trimming device. Obtain a short bungee. anchor one end somewhere on the passenger seat at floor level. Take two turns around the base of the joy stick and then anchor the free end close to the starting point.. The elastic should be fairly tight. Adjustment of the amount of input is obtained by moving the bungee up the stick for more trim and towards the base for less. Works everytime. Nothing to go wrong.. Just what aircraft control should be. Cheers Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Date: Aug 18, 2009
> My plan is to cut narrow strips of each and soak one end in each of the fuels overnight or longer and photograph them afterwards for all to see. > > -------- > Thom Riddle Rather than soaking each test strip overnight in the fuel, test them in a similar situation as would be encountered in the real world, a spill, splash, wind bown mist, etc., Wipe some off immediately, a few minutes, 10 minutes, and on. In the real world the windshield will not be in a situation that it soaks all night in fuel, unless it has an overhead tank that is dripping on it. My experience with Lexan/polycarbonate damage by fuel, has been random. The case I mentioned from the fuel spill in Alaska is the only one that stands out in my memory now. There were others that are too far gone in the recesses of my poor memory. The spill in Alaska was unknown until I discovered the damage later, on down the road. So that fuel stayed on the Lexan until it evavorated. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
- Don't ever use silicone spray on polycarbonate.- I tried to waterproo f some snowplow light turn signals with it, and we heard a crackling noise. - Shortly after, they fell right off the headlight housing.- I don't kn ow if it was the silicone or the carrier. - ------------------------- ----------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ----------------------- Winds or Locks, Ct. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
John, Per your suggestion, I'll do the short term test first. If no obvious damage, then I'll do an overnight soak. I've been googling this morning and found one site describing an Asian car manufacture's plans of trying polycarbonate as a fuel tank to save weight. This is getting more interesting the more I dig. I hope someone with Lexan or another brand of polycarbonate other than Makrolon which is what I have, will try this test too. Just be certain that it is not acrylic or other clear plastic. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258405#258405 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Date: Aug 18, 2009
> I hope someone with Lexan or another brand of polycarbonate other than Makrolon which is what I have, will try this test too. Just be certain that it is not acrylic or other clear plastic. > > -------- > Thom Riddle Acrylic is easy to test. Bend it and it will break. It is extremely brittle. I unknowingly made a FS windshield out of acrylic someone gave me, thinking it was Lexan. I broke in the air. Big piece hit the leading edge of the wing. Thus my experience with the Old Kolb Co's leading edge dent remover. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
I just found this abstract of a study done on the effects of gasoline(s) on various plastics. Note in particular the last statement in the abstract. Very interesting! Article Stress cracking of plastics by gasoline and gasoline components M. G. Wyzgoski, C. H. M. Jacques Polymers Department, General Motors Research Laboratories, Warren, Michigan 48090 ABSTRACT The susceptibility of polycarbonate, polymethyl methacrylate, and cellulose acetate butyrate to gasoline-induced stress cracking was evaluated by measuring the critical strains of specimens exposed to a variety of commercial gasolines and gasoline components. Cellulose acetate butyrate exhibited the greatest resistance to gasoline followed by polymethyl methacrylate and polycarbonate. Stress cracking was a complex function of gasoline composition. Measured critical strains generally decreased and the severity of cracking of molded parts generally increased as the total aromatic content of the gasolines increased. However, a significant difference in critical strains was observed between the individual aliphatic components of gasoline. No correlation was observed between critical strain and gasoline type, i.e., premium, regular, or unleaded. The effect of time of exposure was examined, and it was observed that for some binary mixtures splashing caused much more severe cracking than continuous exposure. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258420#258420 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Stress cracking was a complex function of gasoline composition. Measured critical strains generally decreased and the severity of cracking of molded parts generally increased as the total aromatic content of the gasolines increased. However, a significant difference in critical strains was observed between the individual aliphatic components of gasoline. No correlation was observed between critical strain and gasoline type, i.e., premium, regular, or unleaded. The effect of time of exposure was examined, and it was observed that for some binary mixtures splashing caused much more severe crackin! > g than continuous exposure. > > -------- > Thom Riddle Sorta goes along with what I have experienced. Some do and some don't, based on additives, and amounts. Splashing caused more severe cracking. I know it is heart breaking to install new Lexan, make a little mistake, and watch the money and work disappear in a flash. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 18, 2009
FWIW you may be able to determine the country of origin of fuel filters, and lots of other things. Look at the numbers below the bar-codes. I've been told 700's mean Taiwan, 600's China, and anything beginning with a zero is either the US or Canada. Anyone know for sure? On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:01 PM, robert bean wrote: > If you are using auto parts stores for a source NAPA tends to have > more honorable stock. > Auto zone and Advance tend to have more junk. (NAPA counter man > humorously called them the "Dead Zone" > BB > > On 17, Aug 2009, at 8:52 PM, John Hauck wrote: > >> JC Whitney is notorious for cheap imitations. >> >> I bought a handful of their look alike filters for other >> applications. They were all junk. As Brother Ted Cowan so >> eloquently described, couldn't get them to tighten down straight >> enough to make the seal. Cheaper and safer to stuff'em in the >> trash can than to try and get a refund. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> No doubt there is more than one maker of those cylinder filters. >> caveat emptor. >> BB >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Subject: List Advice
Vic/All Generally speaking we do a petty good job of answering questions in a frien dly manner. Remember no one is getting paid one penny.=C2-We are all=C2 -human=C2-including all=C2-those that take cheap & inaccurate shots a bout a rare poorly worded post. I don't know if you are referring to me but I did take it personally. As for pitch sensitivity. I have been monitoring this list for almost ten y ears and this the first time it has come up on a plans built Kolb. If you h ave information that counters=C2-what we have come to know as true is=C2 -important that you share it with us. I do request that when you share information, you try to do so in a informa tive manner so that we will discuss that information. Thanks (sort of) for your input. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic" <vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:25:12 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First Flight follow-up, =C2- Well there you go Herb. How dare you not take advice=C2- crammed down you r throat. Especially when it comes from a guy that just a couple weeks ago was giving advice on list ethics and honesty. Some just hit delete when they see his babble. It's kind of like watching a tv soap opera for a minute until you realize h ow crapy it really is. By the way I'm still=C2-learning to land my Xtra. They are pitch sensitiv e. Just because most learn to fly them well and safely doesn't mean otherwise. I have to learn to keep the nose and speed up. Wait till you try landing in rough air and crosswind. Vic Builder more than flyer MKIIIX 912 20 Hrs. ===== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Gary, Thanks for sharing your story, that sounds like a very close call and potentially far more dangerous than an engine failure. This is really what this forum is all about, these recent reports from fellow Kolb flyer's leave no room for doubt, using cheap fuel filters will likely result in aircraft damage due to forced landing or may even kill you. Given all the close calls and stories of cheap fuel filters failing in the last couple days, its nothing short of foolish for people to keep using cheap lawnmower quality filters in airplanes. Those that chose to ignore good advice and reports like the one above do so at their own peril. Here is the URL to the best fuel filter on the planet for an experimental airplane as far as I am concerned. If someone finds something better and safer, by all means post it.. This filter is designed to be washed, will last forever, has zero plastic in it, is ethanol proof, has duel screens, a larger mesh, and then large area very fine micro stainless steel 10 micron filter screen that that will filter far better than any fiber / paper element ever will. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php John H, The story above illustrates a point that you missed yesterday. The fuel filter you have and recommend is not the filter that is sold today. What someone buys today is most likely the same type of filter that Gary describes above, a cheap Chinese copy that is likely to fail. I am not trying to get John H to change a filter that he has had for 14 years, but I sure as heck would not tell people to buy the same one, because chances are they cant, and will end up with something dangerous. John, your fuel filter record is pretty good, and I am not trying to get you to change yours, because I know you wont. My posts are for others out there that don't have your filter which I consider to be OK and safe, but not great... For the record but there is still one engine failure you talked about yesterday in your 912-S where your fuel filter got completely clogged with fibers cutting off your fuel supply. This engine failure may not have happened if you had a filter with a larger filter area, just speculation, we will never know for sure. What I do know is that I spent close to 20,000 dollars for a reliable aviation type engine, and that spending this type of money for an engine and then having it fail due to using a cheap lawn mower type filter is nothing short of crazy. Given all the cheap copy's that are being made of your fuel filter and problems with them out there John H, do you really think it is good advice to tell people they should go out and buy your type filter ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258445#258445 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Mike B: > Thanks for sharing your story, that sounds like a very close call and potentially far more dangerous than an engine failure. This is really what this forum is all about, these recent reports from fellow Kolb flyer's leave no room for doubt, using cheap fuel filters will likely result in aircraft damage due to forced landing or may even kill you. Given all the close calls and stories of cheap fuel filters failing in the last couple days, its nothing short of foolish for people to keep using cheap lawnmower quality filters in airplanes. Those that chose to ignore good advice and reports like the one above do so at their own peril. Here is the URL to the best fuel filter on the planet for an experimental airplane as far as I am concerned. If someone finds something better and safer, by all means post it.. This filter is designed to be washed, will last forever, has zero plastic in it, is ethanol proof, has duel screens, a larger mesh, and then large area very fine micro! > stainless steel 10 micron filter screen that that will filter far better > than any fiber / paper element ever will. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php > > John H, > > The story above illustrates a point that you missed yesterday. The fuel > filter you have and recommend is not the filter that is sold today. What > someone buys today is most likely the same type of filter that Gary > describes above, a cheap Chinese copy that is likely to fail. I am not > trying to get John H to change a filter that he has had for 14 years, but > I sure as heck would not tell people to buy the same one, because chances > are they cant, and will end up with something dangerous. > > John, your fuel filter record is pretty good, and I am not trying to get > you to change yours, because I know you wont. My posts are for others out > there that don't have your filter which I consider to be OK and safe, but > not great... For the record but there is still one engine failure you > talked about yesterday in your 912-S where your fuel filter got completely > clogged with fibers cutting off your fuel supply. This engine failure may > not have happened if you had a filter with a larger filter area, just > speculation, we will never know for sure. What I do know is that I spent > close to 20,000 dollars for a reliable aviation type engine, and that > spending this type of money for an engine and then having it fail due to > using a cheap lawn mower type filter is nothing short of crazy. Given all > the cheap copy's that are being made of your fuel filter and problems with > them out there John H, do you really think it is good advice to tell > people they should go out and buy your t! > ype filter ? > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258445#258445 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Sorry, Gang: I was going to reply to the previous post, but then wisely changed my mind. I have a headache from beating my head up against a brick wall. Think I'll take a nap. ;-) john h mkIII - Flying with a pretty good, but not great, fuel filter, for more than 4,000 hours, over the last 25 years, in three different Kolb aircraft. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Filter Failure > > Mike B: > > > Thanks for sharing your story, that sounds like a very close call and > potentially far more dangerous than an engine failure. This is really > what this forum is all about, these recent reports from fellow Kolb > flyer's leave no room for doubt, using cheap fuel filters will likely > result in aircraft damage due to forced landing or may even kill you. > Given all the close calls and stories of cheap fuel filters failing in the > last couple days, its nothing short of foolish for people to keep using > cheap lawnmower quality filters in airplanes. Those that chose to ignore > good advice and reports like the one above do so at their own peril. > Here is the URL to the best fuel filter on the planet for an experimental > airplane as far as I am concerned. If someone finds something better and > safer, by all means post it.. This filter is designed to be washed, will > last forever, has zero plastic in it, is ethanol proof, has duel screens, > a larger mesh, and then large area very fine micro! >> stainless steel 10 micron filter screen that that will filter far better >> than any fiber / paper element ever will. >> >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php >> >> John H, >> >> The story above illustrates a point that you missed yesterday. The fuel >> filter you have and recommend is not the filter that is sold today. What >> someone buys today is most likely the same type of filter that Gary >> describes above, a cheap Chinese copy that is likely to fail. I am not >> trying to get John H to change a filter that he has had for 14 years, but >> I sure as heck would not tell people to buy the same one, because chances >> are they cant, and will end up with something dangerous. >> >> John, your fuel filter record is pretty good, and I am not trying to get >> you to change yours, because I know you wont. My posts are for others >> out there that don't have your filter which I consider to be OK and safe, >> but not great... For the record but there is still one engine failure >> you talked about yesterday in your 912-S where your fuel filter got >> completely clogged with fibers cutting off your fuel supply. This engine >> failure may not have happened if you had a filter with a larger filter >> area, just speculation, we will never know for sure. What I do know is >> that I spent close to 20,000 dollars for a reliable aviation type engine, >> and that spending this type of money for an engine and then having it >> fail due to using a cheap lawn mower type filter is nothing short of >> crazy. Given all the cheap copy's that are being made of your fuel >> filter and problems with them out there John H, do you really think it is >> good advice to tell people they should go out and buy your t! >> ype filter ? >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you >> could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258445#258445 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
From: loseyf(at)comcast.net
Date: Aug 18, 2009
FYI I ran across this if it can be of value: http://plastics.inwiki.org/Polycarbonate Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:13:33 Subject: Kolb-List: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster I just found this abstract of a study done on the effects of gasoline(s) on various plastics. Note in particular the last statement in the abstract. Very interesting! Article Stress cracking of plastics by gasoline and gasoline components M. G. Wyzgoski, C. H. M. Jacques Polymers Department, General Motors Research Laboratories, Warren, Michigan 48090 ABSTRACT The susceptibility of polycarbonate, polymethyl methacrylate, and cellulose acetate butyrate to gasoline-induced stress cracking was evaluated by measuring the critical strains of specimens exposed to a variety of commercial gasolines and gasoline components. Cellulose acetate butyrate exhibited the greatest resistance to gasoline followed by polymethyl methacrylate and polycarbonate. Stress cracking was a complex function of gasoline composition. Measured critical strains generally decreased and the severity of cracking of molded parts generally increased as the total aromatic content of the gasolines increased. However, a significant difference in critical strains was observed between the individual aliphatic components of gasoline. No correlation was observed between critical strain and gasoline type, i.e., premium, regular, or unleaded. The effect of time of exposure was examined, and it was observed that for some binary mixtures splashing caused much more severe crackin! g than continuous exposure. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258420#258420 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vic" <vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: List Advice
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Rick N. Absolutely not referring to you or your posts. The lister I'm referring to needs no introduction. My apologies to you Vic ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
>..................... calls and stories of cheap fuel filters failing in the last couple days, its nothing short of foolish for people to keep using cheap lawnmower quality filters in airplanes. >..................... Mike, I do not recall anyone admitting that they were using "cheap lawnmower quality filter". It is difficult to influence someone to change to your way of thinking, if you are going imply that they are already idiots. I assume many on the List are very happy with the filters they are using and see no need to change. I believe most pilots are optimistic about flying with the equipment they have chosen to use, and so spreading doom and gloom about using components that you do not favor will not win many, if any, over to your way of thinking. Please continue to float out your ideas, but leave off the doom and gloom, and what you think may happen if others do not accept your personal choices. FWIW Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net wrote: > Well there you go Herb. How dare you not take advice crammed down your throat. > Especially when it comes from a guy that just a couple weeks ago was giving advice > on list ethics and honesty. > Some just hit delete when they see his babble. > It's kind of like watching a tv soap opera for a minute until you realize how crapy it really is. > > Vic, you clearly are doing your best to try to insert personal politics and bickering into a important discussion where Herbs safety is at risk. You are doing your best to distract from the facts and discussion at hand by posting something that has ZERO information on Herbs problem, and does not contribute anything to this thread except your personal agenda. Shame on you. Herb has a dangerous condition that he is proposing of hiding through the use of trim tabs instead of fixing. Herb did not pay attention to the good information he got when told in a nice and gentle way. Given the second flight report and the really bad " fixes " that Herb is proposing, Herb needed to be told what a dangerous situation he has in a very direct manner. I don't care if it hurts his feelings or not, Herb needed to hear it for his own good. I am not trying to become best buddies with Herb or even care if he likes what I say or not, but I did give him the best advice he could possibly get. Now if Herb goes out and hurts himself, he will have no one but himself to blame as I did everything humanly possible to warn him. So tell me Vic, since when is properly rigging the wings of your Kolb to fly level and recheck the CG to make sure it is in limits bad advice ? Do you have anything to add to this thread other than trying to insert personal politics instead of facts into this discussion ? I do see some really bad advice here in this thread, which was just given by you. I know your type, a know nothing that tells others to only listen to people he " Likes ". Let me get this straight, if Vic likes someone, everything they say should be heeded, and if Vic does not like them, then they are not qualified to talk about technical matters in aviation. This type of attitude may work in Junior High school, but most people grow out of this " Clique " and " gang " mentality ... This type of conduct definitely has no place in an aviation forum where people get information that affect their and their passengers safety. I cant think of a worse attitude to have towards aviation. Your advice and attitude is a true disservice to this list, a person like you that puts more importance on personal politics than on facts, knowledge, and good information is the LAST type of person I would ever look to for advice or information on airplanes. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258478#258478 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Jack, You are just wrong about dismissing my warning as gloom and doom. I have seen these problems first hand at my field, and we have had FOUR reports recently here on the list of similar problems. This is not gloom and doom, this is a very REAL danger. This information will probably save someone out there a crash one day. I don't care if some take offense to it or not, using some of these cheap filters is just plain foolish, or stupid or whatever you want to call it. If it hurts some feelings, so be it. What is important is that the smarter, and more honest people will learn from this information and most probably save someone a crash sooner or later. John H, If I am wrong about something in my previous posts about fuel filters, then by all means speak up. I always stand behind the facts and sound advice, but I have little patience for personal politics and peoples egos getting in the way of good information and safety. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258480#258480 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Thom Riddle wrote: > > > It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeating (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact polycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline. > > Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that. > > Learning stuff every day. Don't learn to fast Thom, gasoline will cloud, crack lexan VERY quickly. I have dripped non-ethanol gasoline on my lexan many times only to have to spend a bunch of time polishing, not cleaning, but actually polishing out the horrible milky while cloud it leaves behind. A couple weeks ago, I splashed non-ethanol gasoline on my lexan side window, and within 20 seconds, there were hundreds of small cracks in the lexan window, totally ruined it. Just be thankful that for whatever reason you got lucky when you spilled your gas, but that wont happen every time. Theory is one thing, but results trump theory every time ! Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258483#258483 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: List Advice
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
neilsenrm(at)comcast.net wrote: > Vic/All > > As for pitch sensitivity. I have been monitoring this list for almost ten years and this the first time it has come up on a plans built Kolb. If you have information that counters what we have come to know as true is important that you share it with us. > > . > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > > > --- Vics " Advice " in the other thead was a poor attempt to insert personal politics and bad feelings into an important thread. Vics attempt to derail an important safety discussion into emotion and bickering for the advancement his own personal agenda is just a disservice this list. As usual with this type of know nothing person that puts personal politics ahead of facts, Vic tells others to ignore good advice that is important to safety... A an cliquish type attitude that has no place in aviation, while the only tidbit of information Vic gives about the pitch instability of Kolbs is totally wrong. Nice going Vic.... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258484#258484 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: azfirestar(at)cox.net
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up
I think that making double sure the CG is correct is very important in this situation. On the other hand, don't forget that control sensitivity is relative. The high lift-to-weight ratio of our light planes allows for a lot of vertical motion that would have the sensation of pitch sensitivity, especially if flying in breezy or theamally active conditions. Also our planes react quickly to pitch control because the have relatively low inertia in the pitch direction. These things would feel very exaggerated to someone coming from GA experience. When I first soloed in a single seat ultralight I was shocked at how much more it blew around in the wind than the 2 seat version I trained in (actually I was holding on for dear life). Then after flying ultralights for years, when I learned to fly 4 seat GA aircraft it felt like I was landing a school bus. Dan G 503 F2 Tucson AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vic" <vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Jet Pilot If you don't like the taste of your own medicine don't dispense it. Vic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Hauck" <jimh474(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Mike Have No Fear and all; The fuel filter clogging that Bro John H experienced, I was a passenger on that flight. It wouldn't have made any difference if the filter was your recommended $80.00, plus shipping, plus taxes of all kinds, super duper filter that you are pushing or a wash tub sized one, it would have clogged. The cause was, we got the first load of fuel out of a brand new fuel system that was built for refueling a/c at a Fly-in, in Texas. Undoubtedly the system was never flushed out after assembly and we got the full load of debris that was in the tank. Not water, debris. Trash, junk what ever you want to call it. Now, we will hear that John, should have checked the fuel source, maybe he should have, but he didn't just like 99.99% of all pilots don't, to include jet pilots :) under the same circumstances. But Texas being such a fine state, they had laid out an 8,000 Ft concrete runway for us to make our forced landing on, some 30 miles from where we departed. I think if most folks put their mind in gear before they put their fingers on the keyboard, we could eliminate all of the P---ing contest with the exception of those few that have that ego and hide behind the monitor problem. Jim H The older brother PS: Mike, What does, not going as fast as you could have to do with fear? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
> Mike, With a FireFly, I have to fly light, and so I have been using one of those little inexpensive paper filters. I placed it in the fuel line before the pulse pump and connect it to the pump inlet with a clear see through hose. The reason for doing this is that it ensures that the filter never sees any high pressure, and if there is a leak in the filter or in the system ahead of the filter, I will see bubbles in the tubing. Some have said that you should stay away from paper filters as they will seal off if water gets into the line. Think about this. If the filter is put into the system in the dry condition and fuel is pumped up into the filter, the fuel will wet the filter medium, and gasoline will pass on through the filter. Later if water manages to be sucked up into the line, the fuel wet filter medium will not let the water pass except and if it becomes adsorbed by the ethanol in the fuel. If I placed the filter in the lowest point in my fuel system, and if I did not periodically dry out my tank, it could be possible to suck a sufficient amount of water into the line and filter, so that, it could block filter fuel flow to the point that it would starve the engine. But by placing the filter high and before the pump this likely hood is almost non existent. Using the system that I have described, I have never found any water in the float bowl, and I have not experienced engine failure due to fuel starvation. Each spring, I clean the tank. Again - FWIW Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: tlewison(at)gmail.com
Subject: Looking for a kolb trailer to rent or closer Firefly
Date: Aug 18, 2009
I am looking at buying a Firefly that's 1000 miles away. Does anyone have an enclosed trailer I can rent to go pick it up? or Does anyone have a Firefly for sale that's closer to Minnesota? I am in Zumbrota, MN (by Rochester) Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Gas vs Lexan - and the winner is??
Sometimes it's easier to just do it. In HighDef - If you want!! 1 oz of 93 Octane - Chevron auto gas (up to 10% ethanol may be added) vs 1@ of 8' x 10' of Genuine GE Lexan One 30 second round to determine the winner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdJrOSXA3vw At 01:27 PM 8/18/2009, you wrote: >I just found this abstract of a study done on the effects of >gasoline(s) on various plastics. Note in particular the last >statement in the abstract. Very interesting! > > Article >Stress cracking of plastics by gasoline and gasoline components >M. G. Wyzgoski, C. H. M. Jacques >Polymers Department, General Motors Research Laboratories, Warren, >Michigan 48090 . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: Herb <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Jack and all Wondering which fuel filter TNK sends out with a kit or engine?? If any? Do they have a recommendation...? Herb At 02:10 PM 8/18/2009, you wrote: > > > >..................... >calls and stories of cheap fuel filters failing in the last couple days, >its nothing short of foolish for people to keep using cheap lawnmower >quality filters in airplanes. > >..................... > >Mike, > >I do not recall anyone admitting that they were using "cheap lawnmower >quality filter". It is difficult to influence someone to change to your way >of thinking, if you are going imply that they are already idiots. I assume >many on the List are very happy with the filters they are using and see no >need to change. I believe most pilots are optimistic about flying with the >equipment they have chosen to use, and so spreading doom and gloom about >using components that you do not favor will not win many, if any, over to >your way of thinking. > >Please continue to float out your ideas, but leave off the doom and gloom, >and what you think may happen if others do not accept your personal choices. > >FWIW > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN > > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >08/17/09 18:04:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 447 problem
At 01:01 PM 8/14/2009, Blumax008(at)aol.com wrote: >...by the way, what the hell is a billet?... Others have posted on the what, but not the why. Yes, billet is bar stock, so the part is machined rather than being cast to the final (or nearly final) shape. Parts machined from billet are [usually] stronger and more accurate than an equivalent cast part. Also, many cast parts aren't the same material; many casting alloys are inferior to the bar stock. Compare cast iron to high strength steel, or aluminum or zinc (commonly called "pot metal"). -Dana -- When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
At 07:19 AM 8/15/2009, pj.ladd wrote: >Dont you have any restrictions on airobatics in our sort of planes in the US. > >Strictly illegal here. Not to say it is never done of course Here you can generally do aerobatics unless prohibited by the aircraft's operating limitations. Most manufacturers nowadays issue a blanket statement like "no acrobatic maneuvers permitted except the following:...). For a homebuilt, the builder can specify (or not specify) anything he likes and tests for during the flight test phase. Of course there are other restrictions like minimum altitudes, no acro over congested areas or on airways, parachutes must be worn unless flying solo, etc. -Dana -- When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
At 09:29 AM 8/15/2009, Richard Girard wrote: >Pat, Yes, unless the aircraft is spec'd as an aerobatic aircraft, item 17 >in the operating limitations forbids aerobatics. > >17) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an >intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft's >attitude,an abnormal attitude, or acceleration not necessary for normal flight. > >Hard to imagine how it could be any clearer. Rick, that applies to aircraft certificated as LSA. For experimental-amateur built, it's whatever the builder safely demonstrates during the flight test phase. -Dana -- When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
At 02:52 PM 8/16/2009, HGRAFF(at)aol.com wrote: > >We also raised the right flap by two threads at the rod end, but to no >avail at all of mitigating the strong left roll force, which is most >annoying. Our engine turns clockwise. Trim tab(s) will be needed. The >question remains whether rudder or aileron or both. If you have a "strong" roll force, you should be checking the airplane's rig. Trim tabs are for light forces. As to whether you need rudder or aileron trim, it's whatever it takes to make the airplane fly level with the ball (or yaw string) centered. > Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme. Yes, you can get used to it, > but is definitely a-typical. Are you sure your weight and balance is OK? A tailheavy aircraft will be very pitch sensitive (and dangerous to boot!) -Dana -- When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Brother Jim, Your account adds a lot of information to this engine failure, from what you report no fuel filter would have prevented the engine failure. This is why I was very careful to say, Maybe and Possibly when referring to his engine failure. What is a certainty is that more area in a filter element is better, and is less likely to clog and result in an engine failure. My Honda Civic has a filter with 10 times more filter area than the little filters many are using in their planes, its just good design. As far as John H's filter, it has obviously worked well for him for 14 years, John H is a very smart man and knows how to keep alive in a Kolb in conditions most of us will ever see. John H is the first guy I go to when I have a Kolb question. I am not trying to get John H to change a filter that has served him well for so long. But here is my question, given that all brands seem to be importing the same model filter from China, but now made cheaply and very prone to failure, how can anyone tell guys that recently bought or are planning on buying this model of filter that they are safe to use in an airplane. Look at Gary Siegrest's report that was posted today. I cant overemphasize how dangerous a floor full of gasoline is in flight. I previously talked about this exact type of problem with these filters, it is well known, and there have been many previous reports of this model fuel filter failing in the same way. What everyone reading this list needs to know is, given the reality of cheap Chinese imports of almost every product, what filter should people buy for their Kolb today ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258566#258566 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
From: "Carl Tosh" <carl.tosh(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Hey All, I am using a Kawasaki Jetski, water separator fuel filter on an old Ultrastar that I am rebuilding. Got it off Ebay. It looks like a gascolator with aluminum top and plastic setteling bowl. Inside it has about an 1' diameter x 1 1/2" long stainless mess filter. Bowl has a spring under filter to keep it off bottom and a o'ring to seal filter to inlet. Then you have about 1" or better of bowl to collect water. You unscrew ring retainer to remove bowl to service the cleanable filter mesh or to dump trapped water. This is the best thing I have found for filtering and water removal and you don't have to spend a bunch to service it. Also weighs about 6 or 8ozs. My three cents. CT. -------- mongsterone Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258573#258573 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Might try one that's FAA approved -- On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:33 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > Brother Jim, > > Your account adds a lot of information to this engine failure, > from what you report no fuel filter would have prevented the engine > failure. This is why I was very careful to say, Maybe and Possibly > when referring to his engine failure. What is a certainty is that > more area in a filter element is better, and is less likely to clog > and result in an engine failure. My Honda Civic has a filter with > 10 times more filter area than the little filters many are using in > their planes, its just good design. > > As far as John H's filter, it has obviously worked well for him for > 14 years, John H is a very smart man and knows how to keep alive in > a Kolb in conditions most of us will ever see. John H is the first > guy I go to when I have a Kolb question. I am not trying to get > John H to change a filter that has served him well for so long. > > But here is my question, given that all brands seem to be importing > the same model filter from China, but now made cheaply and very > prone to failure, how can anyone tell guys that recently bought or > are planning on buying this model of filter that they are safe to > use in an airplane. Look at Gary Siegrest's report that was > posted today. I cant overemphasize how dangerous a floor full of > gasoline is in flight. I previously talked about this exact type > of problem with these filters, it is well known, and there have > been many previous reports of this model fuel filter failing in the > same way. > > What everyone reading this list needs to know is, given the reality > of cheap Chinese imports of almost every product, what filter > should people buy for their Kolb today ? > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258566#258566 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 18, 2009
----- Original Message ----- From: JetPilot To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 6:33 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter. But here is my question, given that all brands seem to be importing the same model filter from China, but now made cheaply and very prone to failure, how can anyone tell guys that recently bought or are planning on buying this model of filter that they are safe to use in an airplane. Look at Gary Siegrest's report that was posted today. I cant overemphasize how dangerous a floor full of gasoline is in flight. I previously talked about this exact type of problem with these filters, it is well known, and there have been many previous reports of this model fuel filter failing in the same way. What everyone reading this list needs to know is, given the reality of cheap Chinese imports of almost every product, what filter should people buy for their Kolb today ? Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Mike, I think what every one is trying to say is, that no one cares one way or another what you believe or how strongly you might believe it. Not a problem, It is your choice. No one will tell you that it is a bad choice. What most have trouble with is that you don't seem to want to let anyone else believe any thing different. We all make choices, some good, some bad. Sometimes that is the only thing that keeps humans from over running the world. You just have to face it, not every one sees the same thing the same way you do. All anyone of us can do is make recommendations, if they choose to ignore that and take a different path, so be it. Mellow in Oregon, Larry C ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Carl, does it look like this? : http://tinyurl.com/lwtpdb If so it looks like a decent piece of work. How's the element replacement availability? Today I was in Walmart and bought a Fram G12 fuel filter. Clear bowl, captive element and 1/4" nipples. Made in Israel. I might try it next year. BB On 18, Aug 2009, at 9:00 PM, Carl Tosh wrote: > > Hey All, I am using a Kawasaki Jetski, water separator fuel filter > on an old Ultrastar that I am rebuilding. Got it off Ebay. It looks > like a gascolator with aluminum top and plastic setteling bowl. > Inside it has about an 1' diameter x 1 1/2" long stainless mess > filter. Bowl has a spring under filter to keep it off bottom and a > o'ring to seal filter to inlet. Then you have about 1" or better of > bowl to collect water. You unscrew ring retainer to remove bowl to > service the cleanable filter mesh or to dump trapped water. This is > the best thing I have found for filtering and water removal and you > don't have to spend a bunch to service it. Also weighs about 6 or > 8ozs. My three cents. CT. > > -------- > mongsterone > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258573#258573 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster
At 08:19 PM 8/17/2009, Thom Riddle wrote: >For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in >short order... I've heard both (that it's OK and that it's not OK). Even the chemical compatibility charts differ on whether it's OK. A few months ago I decided to make my own fuel strainer, and wanting a clear bowl, I made it out of polycarbonate (supplier unknown; it was a block I scrounged at work): <http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/?action=view¤t=gascolator.jpg> I left it full of gas/oil mix (auto gas with 10% ethanol) for a week, no change... then mounted it on my plane, where it's performed fine ever since. It has two inlets (one for each tank), a quick drain, and a coarse stainless screen in the outlet feeding the main inline filter (the glass tube kind). -Dana -- Alpha test version: too buggy to release. Beta test version: still too buggy to release. Release 1.0: alternate pronounciation of beta test version. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Hauck" <jimh474(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Mike; I don't believe that John ever said for anyone to buy the type filter he has used. he said it has worked for him. There is a big difference. Jim H ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Nose cone for MKIIIC
From: "albertakolbmk3" <cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
Hi, Was wondering if anyone might have a spare nose cone for a MKIIIC or know where I can get one? Tony Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258607#258607 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 18, 2009
I bought a Firestar II. I called Travis at Kolb and asked how I should go about learning to fly one. First idea, come to Kolb and we can teach you in one of ours. Second idea, Find an instructor with a Challenger II, they fly similar. I took the second. My instructor told me a lot of GA guys are caught off guard by these little planes and have problems. After I flew the Challenger I went and flew an Aeronca. I damn near flew that into the ground, it works different than a Challenger, slower to respond to pitch commands on landing. The first thing I did to my Firestar was drag the right wingtip down the tarmac and almost ground loop it. Things are better now. Good luck, hope things get better, I had to get that piece to adjust my wings. My plane is not as stable as my instructors Challenger, his plane is not as responsive as mine. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258609#258609 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 19, 2009
given that all brands seem to be importing > the same model filter from China, but now made cheaply and very prone to > failure, how can anyone tell guys that recently bought or are planning on > buying this model of filter that they are safe to use in an airplane. >> It seems from reading alll these posts that you guys are carrying independence and ionvention to unnecessary levels. You seem to be hunting all the cheap sources from K-Mart on down to try and save a buck to try and fix a problem that doesn`t exist. The manufacturer of our planes has years of experience on their side with records of everyones mishaps since day one. Yet the first thing that seems to happen is that you, the builder, probably on your first kit, decide that you know best. You can save ten cents by replacing the makers suggestion with some idea of your own. You `improve` the fuel system, the trim system,. lengthen rudders, shorten wings. You complain about bad filters having bought the cheapest one you can find on the net. Probably a car part, and then complain that it fails I have a suggestion. Do what the plans say. Dont try to second guess a proved and tried design. Buy real aircraft parts. Pay the extra 50 cents. Buy from a proper aircraft parts supplier who has his reputation on the line. I have only built or had built two planes. They were both bog standard and apart from having a drive belt shed its teeth on my Challenger I have never had a part fail. I treat the plane by the book and I do not expect to have any trouble. I do not install, extra pumps, extra this , extra that just because it `might` fail. Just build it and leave it alone. It will be fine. Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 19, 2009
I have to fly light, and so I have been using one of those little inexpensive paper filters. >> You save WEIGHT on a flter? Unbelievable! Make sure you use some very, very, thin papers or you will never get of the ground. Sheeez! Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
> >You save WEIGHT on a flter? Unbelievable! Make sure you use some very, >very, thin papers or you will never get of the ground. > Pat, To meet ultralight vehicle requirements, the empty and dry FireFly must weigh less than 254 pounds. You have to constantly work at it to keep it below the limit. And so it doesn't have much paint on it either. Also since my fuel burn rates are two gph or less, there is no need for large heavy fuel filter. Some buy and fly and some build and fly. For financial reasons I had to build and fly. But what is important is the flying and how to do it safely. Each of us has to do what makes us comfortable. I like to experiment and the reason I do it is to make my FireFly more comfortable and enjoyable to fly. 103-7 provides the freedom to fly with a few restrictions at the lowest cost, which means one must assume complete responsibility for your craft and neck. I am very thankful for 103-7, as it has allowed me to fly a fantastic adult toy for the last ten years. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Filter Failure
Date: Aug 19, 2009
103-7 is a category that most nationalities are not lucky enough to have. It takes real mechanical discipline to make it work and stay legal. Once we get to the registered experimentals the sky is the limit. Some like to build it exactly as the factory outlines, others like to use their own ideas, all legal under our rules. My MkIII has: suzuki 3 cylinder 4 stroke (from abandoned junker) cog belt redrive VW / solexPDSIT carb (Karmann Ghia) 80s era GM ignition hand crafted water heated intake manifold Yamaha water radiator with fan summit racing oil cooler and thermostat Renault inline water thermostat. tube aluminum seat frames with webbing metal nose cone no wing center section wing root fences chopped wings real doors aluminum street sign (used) for panel walmart trash can panel cover and a few misc actual airplane parts BB it flies too! On 19, Aug 2009, at 9:06 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > >> >> You save WEIGHT on a flter? Unbelievable! Make sure you use some >> very, >> very, thin papers or you will never get of the ground. >> > > Pat, > > To meet ultralight vehicle requirements, the empty and dry FireFly > must > weigh less than 254 pounds. You have to constantly work at it to > keep it > below the limit. And so it doesn't have much paint on it either. > > Also since my fuel burn rates are two gph or less, there is no need > for > large heavy fuel filter. > > Some buy and fly and some build and fly. For financial reasons I > had to > build and fly. But what is important is the flying and how to do > it safely. > Each of us has to do what makes us comfortable. I like to > experiment and > the reason I do it is to make my FireFly more comfortable and > enjoyable to > fly. > > 103-7 provides the freedom to fly with a few restrictions at the > lowest > cost, which means one must assume complete responsibility for your > craft and > neck. I am very thankful for 103-7, as it has allowed me to fly a > fantastic > adult toy for the last ten years. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 19, 2009
> It seems from reading alll these posts that you guys are carrying > independence and ionvention to unnecessary levels. > > I have only built or had built two planes. They were both bog standard and > apart from having a drive belt shed its teeth on my Challenger I have > never had a part fail. I treat the plane by the book and I do not expect > to have any trouble. I do not install, extra pumps, extra this , extra > that just because it `might` fail. Just build it and leave it alone. It > will be fine. > > Pat Patrick: Freedom is cool! So is independence and invention. I could have never flown my little Kolb airplanes the places I did without the freedom to change, invent, improve on a proven design. Old and new Kolb Aircraft Company picked up on a lot of changes/improvements that were designed and tested by customers. There are tools and devices customers have come up with that TNK sells every day. One of them is the "Kentucky Windage Device" to adjust the incidence of the wing. Many improvements to fuselages were incorporated in factory kits after customers had modified their kits. A customer designed and tested the dual controls you are flying with. A customer designed the basic Kolbra. A customer flew the initial tests off the latest model MKIIIx. The list goes on. A lot of us on this List like to fix stuff, our way, if we are not completely happy with the way somebody else did it. I like this one, "I have only built or had built two planes." Does that mean you built one and had the other built? You had both built and you handed the builder a tool once in a while? ;-) Thank God we have the freedom to explore and expand without being overregulated in the process. Remember, you have to fly'em to wear'em out. Flying into hangers doesn't count. Glad you got your bird fixed and flying again. Especially glad you did not get hurt in the process of experimenting with hanger flying. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Blumax008(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
In a message dated 8/19/2009 5:45:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes: You complain about bad filters having bought the cheapest one you can find on the net. Probably a car part, and then complain that it fails I buy cheap paper filters all the time for about $2.50 & have been buying them for 30+ years. All with no problems what-so-ever. You guys should be NASA engineers instead of hometown ultralighters or LSA'ers or whatever the hell they're called now. Flying ultralights/LSAs is expensive enough without talking about $80 or $100 fuel filters. This is crazy. What are we trying to do...engineer an "FAA approved" aircraft? We all know how many of those FAA approved aircraft have crashed over the past 70 or 80 years...tens of thousands...and they're still crashing today. You're not going to bullet-proof yourself no matter what you do. One little mistake taken at the wrong altitude or time is going to do you in & your little "official Amalgamated Whatzit" fuel filter is not going to save you. Liken it to Vietnam, you've got a guy Airborne Ranger Recondo LRRP qualified, thinks he's indestructible, goes out into the jungle for his first trip...and gets zapped by a sniper's bullet. Like an LSA owner who has all the bells & whistles & 80 dollar fuel filter, goes up for his first flight, gets in a mid-air & crashes. As I've said before, GO FLY the damn things & quit trying to convince yourself your machine is invincible...and scare the hell out of lurkers & potential Kolb buyers (of possibly YOUR aircraft). Enjoy life & stop smearing BS all over the internet & turning people off to hear all this crap & decide NOT to partake in the sport. Bill Catalina... Pterodactyl, Quicksilver (all kinds), Wizard, Maxair, Kolb, SeaWing, Phantom. U.N. World Food Program - Sudan - Twin Otter Sudanese An-26 Obama Air Armada My pal Moses...no relation to the Biblical Moses. My next door neighbors. Your tax dollars at work. At least (in this case) they're not going into Obama's Health Care plan. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "frank.goodnight" <frank.goodnight(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Right on Bill Frank Goodnight On Aug 19, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Blumax008(at)aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/19/2009 5:45:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com > writes: > You complain about bad filters having bought the cheapest one you > can find > on the net. Probably a car part, and then complain that it fails > I buy cheap paper filters all the time for about $2.50 & have been > buying them for 30+ years. All with no problems what-so-ever. You > guys should be NASA engineers instead of hometown ultralighters or > LSA'ers or whatever the hell they're called now. > > Flying ultralights/LSAs is expensive enough without talking about > $80 or $100 fuel filters. This is crazy. What are we trying to > do...engineer an "FAA approved" aircraft? We all know how many of > those FAA approved aircraft have crashed over the past 70 or 80 > years...tens of thousands...and they're still crashing today. > > You're not going to bullet-proof yourself no matter what you do. One > little mistake taken at the wrong altitude or time is going to do > you in & your little "official Amalgamated Whatzit" fuel filter is > not going to save you. Liken it to Vietnam, you've got a guy > Airborne Ranger Recondo LRRP qualified, thinks he's indestructible, > goes out into the jungle for his first trip...and gets zapped by a > sniper's bullet. Like an LSA owner who has all the bells & whistles > & 80 dollar fuel filter, goes up for his first flight, gets in a mid- > air & crashes. > > As I've said before, GO FLY the damn things & quit trying to > convince yourself your machine is invincible...and scare the hell > out of lurkers & potential Kolb buyers (of possibly YOUR aircraft). > Enjoy life & stop smearing BS all over the internet & turning people > off to hear all this crap & decide NOT to partake in the sport. > > Bill Catalina... > Pterodactyl, Quicksilver (all kinds), Wizard, Maxair, Kolb, SeaWing, > Phantom. > U.N. World Food Program - Sudan - Twin Otter > > > Sudanese An-26 > > Obama Air Armada > > My pal Moses...no relation to the Biblical Moses. > > My next door neighbors. > > Your tax dollars at work. > At least (in this case) they're not going into Obama's Health Care > plan. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb
Date: Aug 19, 2009
PS Can't open your attachments. I use a Mac, mebbe that's it ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HGRAFF(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
Wow, I've been away from the computer for a couple of days and find a regular storm of many outraged responses. Also, as well, intended helpful ones. My, I've been told I have an attitude problem, with the implications I don't appreciate good advice, fly an out of rig, out of CG, not built to plans, porpoising monster into an imminent crash. Guys cool it. The porpoising only lasted 3 - 4 seconds into the first flight, when I over-controlled, surprised by the sensitivity of the pitch. My friend, another GA type had the same problem. Maybe it was my problem for calling this sensitivity "extreme", because I find it at the extreme end of anything I've flown before, excepting maybe the helicopter I owned. Gosh, I only asked the "insane" question if anybody had done anything to reduce this pitch sensitivity. To put some of the feathers down, let me state the CG is normal, Mr. FAA went through the various load calculations to check. This is a straight built classic, without any mods yet. The engine was run in stages for 5 hours, going through the recommended step ups. When it was time for high RPMs the prop was set the specified Static RPM. (Yeah, double checked with a separate optical meter) In regards to the heavy left wing, where I said "strong" force is required to overcome it. Well, what is strong, perhaps the same force required to initiate a bank. I do think one or two trim tabs will cure that. I have a question. For all those sweetheart perfectly trimmed Kolbs, how long will it fly when you remove your hand, or do you still need to switch hands to set the flaps. Oh yes, how many of you use flaps in a normal landing. (considering the acute pwr off sink rate already - flames away!) To be sure, I thank you for and appreciate all your writing efforts. (I'll confess, I did a few quick deletes) Off line I have been in contact with one of yours, a hundreds of hours guy, that has been most helpful. His opening remarks were something like "Hi, when I started out, I had very similar experiences" was a most reassuring msg someone could send to me. Haven't had that much time to work on the Kolb, since its airport is 2 hours away, at Columbia Co. Airport in upstate NY, plus weather has been some fickle. Shall I dare do another follow-up? Herb MarK IIIc, 246KT, 1.3 hrs and going. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Dana, Per my original response: Pat, Yes, *unless the aircraft is spec'd* as an aerobatic aircraft, item 17 in the operating limitations forbids aerobatics. >From FAA AC 8130.2F change 3 (current version) 153. ISSUANCE OF EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR-BUILT OPERATING LIMITATIONS. (15) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft=92s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight. NOTE: If the builder states that the aircraft is capable of aerobatic flight, limitation 16 will be used in lieu of limitation 15. (16) This aircraft may conduct aerobatic flight in accordance with the provisions of =A7 91.303. Aerobatics must not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has bee n gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable and in compliance with =A7 91.319(b ). The aircraft may only conduct those aerobatic flight maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished during flight testing and recorded in the aircraft maintenance records by use of the following, o r a similarly worded, statement: =93I certify that the following aerobatic maneuvers have been te st flown and that the aircraft is controllable throughout the maneuvers=92 normal range of speeds , and is safe for operation. The flight-tested aerobatic maneuvers are _________, _________, __________, and __________.=94 I apologize for getting the number of the limitation wrong between E-LSA an d E-AB, but the gist of my statement is true, the aircraft must be spec'd for aerobatic flight as per the above. Rick On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 09:29 AM 8/15/2009, Richard Girard wrote: > >> Pat, Yes, unless the aircraft is spec'd as an aerobatic aircraft, item 1 7 >> in the operating limitations forbids aerobatics. >> >> 17) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an >> intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft's >> attitude,an abnormal attitude, or acceleration not necessary for normal >> flight. >> >> Hard to imagine how it could be any clearer. >> > > Rick, that applies to aircraft certificated as LSA. For > experimental-amateur built, it's whatever the builder safely demonstrates > during the flight test phase. > > -Dana > -- > When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... > Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. > -- Cherokee saying > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Arksey(at)AOL.COM
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
sure Herb do a follow up...you don't sound like a ding bat to me....but by your lst remarks you made it sound more of problem than it now sounds to be...jswan JIM SWAN firestar ll, 503, N663S Eaton Rapids, Mi. 48827 PH 517-663-8488 runway 2300' E & W (42-28.58N 084-44.69 W ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,
From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 19, 2009
I would be interested in hearing how things develop. It seems the responses are often not too friendly, sorry that happens. Funny how that approach gets your ideas less heard and your behavior more noticed. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258696#258696 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Brad Stump
At 11:12 AM 8/19/2009, Richard Girard wrote: >Dana, Per my original response: > >Pat, Yes, unless the aircraft is spec'd as an aerobatic aircraft, item 17 >in the operating limitations forbids aerobatics. > >...but the gist of my statement is true, the aircraft must be spec'd for >aerobatic flight as per the above. Understood, and correct. My point was that in the US, if the builder chooses to do (and test for) aerobatics, he can do so, and the operating limitations will then permit them. This is very different from the UK, where (as I understand it) you can only build from an approved design, and no deviation from the original approved design or operating limitations is permissible. I guess that applies to aerobatics as well as fuel filters. :) -Dana -- "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
From: Mahesh Iyer <miyer2u(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs
Dear Fellow Kolbers, I am writing to this list for the first time and wanted to thank you all fo r the immense knowledge that you share! =C2- I fly a Kolb Firestar-2 out of Ashland in Oregon and am enjoying it. I want ed some expert advice on building a cockpit controlled trim for my Firestar -2. =C2- Can any of you guide me with some good designs that I could use as a starti ng point to build? After flying the Cessna=99s for quite some time, I am pampered by the use of the trim wheel and want to build something close to it for my Firestar-2. =C2- Once again, thanks much for your contributions! =C2- Mahesh Iyer N194 DS, Phoenix, Oregon Kolb Firestar 2 =93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI, driven by a three bl ade IVO prop The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a ro mance for life!=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter. and morning flight
Date: Aug 19, 2009
----- Original Message ----- From: pj.ladd It seems from reading alll these posts that you guys are carrying independence and ionvention to unnecessary levels. I have a suggestion. Do what the plans say. Dont try to second guess a proved and tried design. Buy real aircraft parts. Pay the extra 50 cents. Buy from a proper aircraft parts supplier who has his reputation on the line. Pat, I started a reply, tongue in cheek this morning, but I needed to fly my hawk and airplane and I just didn't have the time to get the phrasing right, but now I am back and can devote the proper amount of time to this serious reply. I am sure that it is comforting to have someone give you the final answers to any question that one might have, such as what filter to use, how much noise you can make, how many sheets of toilet paper that is permissible to use to wipe one's arse. It has not gotten there quite yet for us, however they are working on it and soon we may be just like your country. Until then however, I will continue to decide my own fate, however misguided that may be. If it is of any interest, the main thing that I don't like about the "Billet" type filter is that you can't tell what is in there without taking it apart. Oh, my plans didn't specify what filter to use, neither the engine instructions or the plane plans. I shudder to think how much flying I would have missed if I had waited to get instructions on which filter to use. :-) On other fronts, My neighbor (the one where I park my truck to go fishing) asked me to check on where his cows were if I got out in the Three Forks country. The Hawk wasn't hungry enough to give a creditable chase on Jack Rabbits, so I got back home early enough to beat the thermals and winds. I used a "find me Spot" to give me fixes on his cows, so that he would understand where I was talking about. Click on the link below to see the Google maps of that area. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=42.5906,-117.244 &ll=42.5906,-117.244&ie=UTF8&z=12&om=1 My house and strip is about 32 miles away to the West about 6 miles South of 90 degree turn of Hwy 95 and Hwy 78 right on Crooked Creek. Mellow and sarcastic, Larry C ________________________________________________________________________________
From: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Sorry List, that was supposed to be off-list. On Aug 19, 2009, at 11:08 AM, russ kinne wrote: > > PS Can't open your attachments. I use a Mac, mebbe that's it > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Hi, I also fly a Firestar II in Jordan Valley, Oregon. I believe that Roger has told you of me. I now have 499.3 hours on my Firestar, but only use a trim tab on my elevator. I suppose that one could go to all the trouble of installing a mechanical trim tab, but I have never found it worth the effort to do so. What I did do was install a trim tab (according to Kolbs instruction, Pat) and simply kept cutting small increments off it until it quit climbing at what ever speed that I chose. In my case about 75 percent of power. That way if I want to climb, I give it more power and the climb is regulated by the amount of power applied. If I wish to descend, I merely reduce power or point the nose to the ground. However this is only the way that I do it, you may require other methods. Larry C ----- Original Message ----- From: Mahesh Iyer To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs Dear Fellow Kolbers, I am writing to this list for the first time and wanted to thank you all for the immense knowledge that you share! I fly a Kolb Firestar-2 out of Ashland in Oregon and am enjoying it. I wanted some expert advice on building a cockpit controlled trim for my Firestar-2. Can any of you guide me with some good designs that I could use as a starting point to build? After flying the Cessna=99s for quite some time, I am pampered by the use of the trim wheel and want to build something close to it for my Firestar-2. Once again, thanks much for your contributions! Mahesh Iyer N194 DS, Phoenix, Oregon Kolb Firestar 2 =93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI, driven by a three blade IVO prop The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a romance for life! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 08/19/09 06:03:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
From: George Thompson <eagle1live(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs
=C2-=C2-=C2- John Hauk has the simplest trim adjustment that can be m ade. It's simple, foolproof and cheap and you can't beat that.=0A=C2-=C2 -=C2- I would send it to you but I deleated it. Ask him to repeat it. =0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- A former builder of a Firestar and a Fire star II.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ma hesh Iyer =0ATo: kolb-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesd ay, August 19, 2009 10:02:32 AM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Cockpit controlled tr im for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs=0A=0A=0ADear Fellow Kolbers, =0AI am wri ting to this list for the first time and wanted to thank you all for the im mense knowledge that you share! =0A=C2- =0AI fly a Kolb Firestar-2 out of Ashland in Oregon and am enjoying it. I wanted some expert advice on build ing a cockpit controlled trim for my Firestar-2. =0A=C2- =0ACan any of yo u guide me with some good designs that I could use as a starting point to b uild? After flying the Cessna=99s for quite some time, I am pampered by the use of the trim wheel and want to build something close to it for my Firestar-2. =0A=C2- =0AOnce again, thanks much for your contributions! =0A=C2- =0AMahesh Iyer =0AN194 DS, Phoenix , Oregon =0AKolb Firestar 2 =93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI, driven by a three blade IVO prop =0A The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a ro ================ =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs
Mahesh I grew up with a 172 also , when I wanted to take aerial photos and needed to use both hands I needed an adjustable elevator trim and =0AI was used to the wheel from the Cessna and I found=C2- that=C2-Rans Aircraft makes one ,an easy installation and I cut about 10 inches off the width it was about 4 inches by 24 inches and I didnt think=C2-I need that much. =C2-The adjustment wheel mounted nicely on the cockpit frame just ahead =C2- and outboard of the throttle This=C2-was in 1993 or 94 and they so ld it for $125=C2- I dont know if they still sell it or not but if they d o it was a great deal and I used it for 9 years ,still worked great when I sold the aircraft! Hope this helps Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider P ilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________ ________________=0AFrom: Mahesh Iyer <miyer2u(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@ma tronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:02:32 PM=0ASubject: Kolb-L ist: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs=0A=0A=0ADear F ellow Kolbers, =0AI am writing to this list for the first time and wanted t o thank you all for the immense knowledge that you share! =0A=C2- =0AI fl y a Kolb Firestar-2 out of Ashland in Oregon and am enjoying it. I wanted s ome expert advice on building a cockpit controlled trim for my Firestar-2. =0A=C2- =0ACan any of you guide me with some good designs that I could us e as a starting point to build? After flying the Cessna=99s for quite some time, I am pampered by the use of the trim wheel and want to build so mething close to it for my Firestar-2. =0A=C2- =0AOnce again, thanks much for your contributions! =0A=C2- =0AMahesh Iyer =0AN194 DS, Phoenix , Ore gon =0AKolb Firestar 2 =93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI, driven by a t hree blade IVO prop =0AThe joy of Flight Nothing comes cl ======================= =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 19, 2009
russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: > > > Might try one that's FAA approved -- > > That is a very good idea, if there was an FAA GA filter that was available at a reasonable price, that would fit our fuel systems. An FAA approved part should be reliable and well made, not like rolling the dice with the latest cheap Chinese imports. I wonder if they would tolerate ethanol ? I will stick to my 80 dollar filter, I think its the best I can get... If I did not have my filter I would be on my way to the local airport and ask some GA mechanics about whats available for what price. I don't know if this idea is practical or not, but it would be well worth researching. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258717#258717 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 19, 2009
In my opinion, the best and lightest trim system you can get for a small experimental airplane is the Electric trim system made by Ray Allen Company. This system is super easy to install, because there are no mechanical cables that need to be routed, instead its wires that are routed to the elevator servo. This system has an electronic indicator, and can be actuated by a panel mounted switch or by a stick mounted buttons that that they sell ( Just like a real airplane :D ) ! http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/trimsystems.html I have used this system in an airplane that had it on both rudder and elevator, its wonderful, ergonomic and elegant, reminds me of the type of installation you would find in a jet or other quality aircraft. I liked it so much, I am building one into another airplane right now. Now for an important warning, be careful with trim tabs and adding any weight to the elevator. This goes for both mechanical and electric trim tabs. A loose trim tab can easily cause flutter and be fatal if it has any play, comes loose, or is not designed correctly. Adding weight to a control surface can easily cause flutter and be fatal, I would add counterweights to my elevator if I did this on my Kolb. Remember, any type of trim tab is highly experimental, and should be pursued with the highest caution. They are wonderful to have, but they are not forgiving of mistakes and have been fatal in many cases. If you are in doubt, get help from your local EAA chapter, or someone that is an expert in the field. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258719#258719 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <apilot(at)surewest.net>
Subject: Re: Nose cone for MKIIIC
Date: Aug 19, 2009
An extra Kolb III nose cone will cause the Classic to fly better, but it is a challenge to adapt the nose to let it fit. Good luck with your search. Vic Gibson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mike have no fear fuel filter.
From: "ronlee" <rlee468(at)comcast.net>
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Given the fact that so many flying machine accidents are caused by some type of fuel problem, my choice is to be very careful in that area. Use good fresh clean fuel, clean cans, good fuel line with good clamps, a nice big fuel filter that is capable of collecting lots of crud before plugging etc. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258726#258726 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2009
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs
At 01:02 PM 8/19/2009, Mahesh Iyer wrote: >I wanted some expert advice on building a cockpit controlled trim for my >Firestar-2. > >Can any of you guide me with some good designs that I could use as a >starting point to build? After flying the Cessnas for quite some time, >I am pampered by the use of the trim wheel and want to build something >close to it for my Firestar-2. I built a simple bungee trim for my UltraStar. <http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/?action=view¤t=elevator_trim.jpg> I have aluminum trim tabs on the elevators, set to a slow cruise (about 40 mph) on the theory that I might survive a landing at that speed if the elevator linkage broke. The bungee adds nose down trim, giving me just enough for a shallow dive when the front tanks are nearly empty. What you see in the picture is a loop of bungee cord (the black and white striped lines), which attach to the elevator bellcrank at the rear and a piece of cord at the front (the red sleeve covers the knots). The cord goes around a pulley attached to the fuselage frame with a cushioned tube clamp, thence to a jam cleat (also attached with cushioned clamps) where I set it as required. Pull back on the line for nose down. Of course a Firestar is different but the idea would be the same. The bungee, pulley, cleat, and red ball on the end of the line are all from West Marine. -Dana -- If cars had followed the same developmental path as computers, a Rolls Royce would cost $100, get a million miles per gallon and explode once a year, killing everyone inside. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Nose cone for MKIIIC
Date: Aug 19, 2009
Vic=2C Tell me about it!!!!! Mike Welch MkIII C with an Xtra nosecone > From: apilot(at)surewest.net > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Nose cone for MKIIIC > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wed=2C 19 Aug 2009 13:11:26 -0700 > > > An extra Kolb III nose cone will cause the Classic to fly better=2C but i t is a challenge to adapt the nose to let it fit. Good luck with your searc h. 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August 12, 2009 - August 19, 2009

Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-is