Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-jt
April 09, 2010 - May 03, 2010
A year later, during modification and repairs of FS, decided I probably
didn't really need that capacitor, so I did not reinstall it. First flight
I could not use my radio to receive or transmit. The ignition and
alternator noise overwhelmed the it. I reinstalled the capacitor and the
noise went away. Additionally, I had to run resisitor plugs (against Rotax
recommendation not to)(no change in performance or reliability was observed)
and shield the plug wires and run metal resisitor NGK plug caps.
The capacitor has a + and - terminal. + goes to the 12VDC positive wire,
and the - goes to a good ground on the airframe.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Former Kolber Will Tatham |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
Will used to be on this list several years ago, he sent me a link to a Kolb video
he and his wife made. Very nice, enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0kSwK60o0o
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293693#293693
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help to fix radio noise? |
On 4/9/2010 11:28 AM, John Hauck wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck"
>
>
> I've heard of this remedy before ( I think from you a couple of years
> ago). Exactly how would a person hook up this capacitor? IIRC, it hooks up
> between the +& - posts of the battery, correct?
>
> Aslo, is this something everyone should do (that uses a radio), or do you
> think only on a "as needed" basis?
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
> Mike W/Gang:
>
> Like a lot of things, I learned it by chance.
>
> Put lights on a dirt bike without a battery. Bought a kit from JC Whitney.
> Kit included a small capacitor (battery replacement).
>
> Wanted to take advantage of the alternator on the 447 on my Firestar,
> remembered the JC Whitney kit and stole the capacitor from the old dirt
> bike.
>
> A year later, during modification and repairs of FS, decided I probably
> didn't really need that capacitor, so I did not reinstall it. First flight
> I could not use my radio to receive or transmit. The ignition and
> alternator noise overwhelmed the it. I reinstalled the capacitor and the
> noise went away. Additionally, I had to run resisitor plugs (against Rotax
> recommendation not to)(no change in performance or reliability was observed)
> and shield the plug wires and run metal resisitor NGK plug caps.
>
> The capacitor has a + and - terminal. + goes to the 12VDC positive wire,
> and the - goes to a good ground on the airframe.
>
> john hauck
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
To add to what John told you, if you hook up the capacitor at the
battery it isn't likely to help you much. (The battery itself does a
pretty good job of filtering noise at its terminals.)
Try putting it as close to the noise generator (typically the alternator
or generator) terminals as is reasonably possible. You can add another
one as close to the radio's power terminals as possible, also, if the
1st one doesn't do the trick.
Having said all that, it's possible that the radio station's transmitter
could just be overwhelming your radio's 'front end'. If that's
happening, think about that HEE HAW TV doctor's advice: "If it hurts
when you do that, don't do that" (go near the radio transmitter) I know
that's not much of a solution, but it might end up being the only one
that's not financially painful.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AEROSHELL OIL SPORT PLUS 2 |
| From: | "albertakolbmk3" <cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com> |
What ratio is the phillips good for?
--------
Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293701#293701
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AEROSHELL OIL SPORT PLUS 2 |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
albertakolbmk3 wrote:
> What ratio is the phillips good for?
I premixed at 50:1 in former years, and now with the 582, just let the oil pump
do it's thing.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293718#293718
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
If you use it at 100:1 in a Rotax 277, the engine will actually rattle, and when
you hear it in flight, it is not a smiley face moment. However, it did make
it back to the field, and after replacing the 100:1 premix with 50:1, the noise
went away. Apparently it gives a really good oil film, but at 100:1, not as
much as Rotax intended.
Must not have hurt anything, replaced the Amsoil that same year with the much cheaper
Injex, and last I heard, the engine had about 750 hours on it, the only
internals I ever replaced in 13 years was one piston and 2 sets of rings.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293719#293719
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Former Kolber Will Tatham |
Will used to be on this list several years ago, he sent me a link to a Kolb
video he and his wife made. Very nice, enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0kSwK60o0o
Richard Pike
Richard P/Gang:
Wonderfully done video.
Thoroughly enjoyed it.
Noticed they were at Arches National Park, 2009. So was I. Probably passed
on the highway. ;-)
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "clrprop" <ktony(at)windstream.net> |
Well, I can now say I've built a Kolb, .... sort of.
Hope you like.
http://picasaweb.google.com/110121065651098215036/KolbBuildPics
Keath T
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293790#293790
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Well, I can now say I've built a Kolb, .... sort of.
Hope you like.
http://picasaweb.google.com/110121065651098215036/KolbBuildPics
Keath T
Keath T/Gang:
Very nice.
Who build the full size MKIII. Looks familiar, but can not remember the
gentleman's name that built it.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
Now you need to clip the lawn a little shorter.
Looks good, Any W&B problems?
BB
On 10, Apr 2010, at 9:36 PM, clrprop wrote:
>
> Well, I can now say I've built a Kolb, .... sort of.
> Hope you like.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/110121065651098215036/KolbBuildPics
>
>
> Keath T
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293790#293790
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Who build the full size MKIII. Looks familiar, but can not remember the
gentleman's name that built it.
john hauck
mkIII
Gang:
Answered my own question.
Could see the N number.
TNK built the MKIII.
I was thinking somebody else had built it, but I was wrong.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "clrprop" <ktony(at)windstream.net> |
John H.
I got it from a gentleman in Ohio by the name of Mark Peterson, but I don't think
he was the original builder.
Slyck
The grass mowing is not my job. :)
It's tail heavy. I'm going to have to put some lead in the nose before the maiden.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293794#293794
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
- Nice piece of work, Keath.- Flyable, or just a stationary model?- W
hat powerplant?
Did you downsize original plans, or measure up the full size one?
-
-------------------------
-------------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------- Windsor Locks,
Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------- FS 447
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "clrprop" <ktony(at)windstream.net> |
She'll fly, at least once... There will be video in case it's the one and only.
It has an OS 35 motor, which I hope will provide enough thrust.
Someone on the list sent me a three-view but when I had them printed, the scales
were off from one view to another so I tossed them and did it all by eye.
Keath T
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293797#293797
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
clrprop wrote:
> She'll fly, at least once... There will be video in case it's the one and only.
It has an OS 35 motor, which I hope will provide enough thrust.
> Someone on the list sent me a three-view but when I had them printed, the scales
were off from one view to another so I tossed them and did it all by eye.
>
> Keath T
By eye? Rats. I was gonna ask for a set of plans. And make Ed wait on his FSII
while I build one of them!
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293798#293798
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com> |
Keath,
VERY
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293799#293799
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Former Kolber Will Tatham |
What a soul touching video.
jerb
At 03:29 PM 4/9/2010, you wrote:
>
>Will used to be on this list several years ago, he sent me a link to
>a Kolb video he and his wife made. Very nice, enjoy!
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0kSwK60o0o
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293693#293693
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "clrprop" <ktony(at)windstream.net> |
Thanks!
It was a fun build, definitely different than anything I've done before. I'm anxious
to see it fly...
Sorry Richard. It's a one-off.
Keath T
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293805#293805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com> |
Thal looks real great ,How does it fly?
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: clrprop <ktony(at)windstream.net>
Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2010 9:36 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: build pics
Well, I can now say I've built a Kolb, .... sort of.
ope you like.
http://picasaweb.google.com/110121065651098215036/KolbBuildPics
eath T
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293790#293790
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
Hi All,
following the chat here about supressing radio noise.
I have been digging through the usual pile of `may come in handy one
day` equipment and I found a block of plastic about (1" 3/4 X3/4"X1/2")
with a wire protruding. The packet is marked `Suppression capacitor
4.7mFD for Alternators`
The plastic block has a fairly substantial metal tongue with a hole in
it. About quarter of an inch dia.
The protruding wire is green and has, on the end, a metal tag of much
thinner material , also with a hole through it.
Apart from the fact that it obviously meant to be bolted to something at
either end and that at a guess mFD means microfarads i am totally at a
loss.
Does this sound as though it might be what is needed to cut engine
noise.? i have a 4 stroke Jabiru. If it will work , where do I fit it?
As you may have guessed I am totally ignorant of electrical stuff, and
most engineering if it comes to that.
Help!
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Looking for help to fix radio noise? |
Aslo, is this something everyone should do (that uses a radio), or do you
think only on a "as needed" basis?
Mike Welch
MkIII
Yes... everyone should consider it. It will smooth out the electrical
noise in the system. One other thing that you can do is to take an old
film canister, or pill bottle. Cut a small piece of tubing that will run
from end to end, wrap a wire around the tubing, and slide it into the
canister. This will work as a resistor to voltage spikes by preventing a
spike from going straight through. And when there is a voltage drop, it will
try and keep the electricity flowing more evenly. A lot of your high end
car stereos will have these installed on the main power lead.
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Former Kolber Will Tatham |
I just looked at the video it is great. The MKIII at the end, is that Gary
Aman's current plane?
Rick Neilsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:29 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Former Kolber Will Tatham
>
> Will used to be on this list several years ago, he sent me a link to a
> Kolb video he and his wife made. Very nice, enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0kSwK60o0o
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293693#293693
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine noise |
| From: | "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com> |
Pat,
That little "m" stand for "milli". What you have is a 4.7 milliFarad (4.7mFD) capacitor.
This equates to 4700microFarads (4700FD), still shy of the 20,000FD
recommended above.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293881#293881
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Former Kolber Will Tatham |
| From: | zeprep251(at)aol.com |
Rick,
Yes it is.
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Former Kolber Will Tatham
cast.net>
I just looked at the video it is great. The MKIII at the end, is that Gary
Aman's current plane?
Rick Neilsen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:29 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Former Kolber Will Tatham
>
> Will used to be on this list several years ago, he sent me a link to a
> Kolb video he and his wife made. Very nice, enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0kSwK60o0o
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293693#293693
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
========================
============
========================
============
========================
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========================
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Hi gang=2C
I'm currious where those of you with aircraft radios located your antenna
. I will be using an Icom A200 panel mount radio=2C and I'm pondering wher
e the best place would be to locate the antenna.
It seems like everywhere I think of=2C there is a logical reason NOT to p
ut it there!!
I have an idea where I might install it=2C but I wanted to hear where oth
ers have put there's=2C first.
Oh yeah. I made one of those dipole antennas that Scott shared with us.
(actually=2C I made three. I figured it isn't that much trouble to make
more than one=2C while I was at it.)
Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading=2C as long as you have a pe
rmanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane=2C I'd like to hear from you. (
even you lurkers....if your radio works good. If your radio doesn't work w
ell=2C keep lurking :-) )
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with H
otmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=
PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MkIII antenna location |
Mike W/Gang:
Was trying to keep this a secret, but will share it with you and the
rest of the herd.
On my Firestar and my MKIII the antenna is mounted under the nose pod
with a 45 degree bend aft.
Worked on the FS and continues to work on the MKIII.
The antenna is a stainless steel whip ELT antenna. Back when I bought
these antennas they could be had for about 15.00 each. Now they are 3
to 4 times that much.
I upgraded from an A3 to an A6 ICOM, a little over 200.00, because the
A6 had adjustable side tone volume. After installation, discovered the
side tone was picking up all the cockpit noise and transmitting it as
well. My transmissions were unreadable. After much frustration and
experimentation, discovered if I turned the side tone volume completely
off, and used the side tone on my intercom, my transmission problems
were solved.
As I get deafer I was also looking for more volume from the radio. The
new A6 did the job. I can hear again.
I also bought a mic muff cover from Oregon Aero. It is a foam muff with
a snug fit naugahyde slip on cover. There is a small hole on each side
for voice and ambient sound. Not sure if it is working or not because I
did the no side tone volume and mic muff upgrade at the same time.
James Tripp has some also. We plan to experiment with them to see if
they, in fact, do reduce cockpit noise being picked up by the mic.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
I'm currious where those of you with aircraft radios located your
antenna.
Mike Welch
MkIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MkIII antenna location |
At 08:35 PM 4/11/2010, Mike Welch wrote:
>
> I'm currious where those of you with aircraft radios located your
> antenna. I will be using an Icom A200 panel mount radio, and I'm
> pondering where the best place would be to locate the antenna.
> It seems like everywhere I think of, there is a logical reason NOT to
> put it there!!
>
> I have an idea where I might install it, but I wanted to hear where
> others have put there's, first.
I remoted my Icom A24's original rubber duck antenna, mounting it under the
cockpit (between the UltraStar's stock fuel tanks) pointing straight
down. I can hear everybody and others report they can hear me just fine.
Haven't figured out what I'm going to do when I move change the tank
configuration and put a cargo box where the current tanks are.
-Dana
--
A rolling stone .... kills worms
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "cspoke" <cspoke(at)gulftel.com> |
I flew my Mark 111 Xtra for the first time tonight. I need to do a few adjustments
but it was a great flight. I plan to be at Sun n Fun Friday and Saturday.
Hope to see some of you there...
--------
Craig Spoke
Mark 111 Xtra
VW Redrive
Lillian, AL
cspoke(at)gulftel.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293904#293904
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p4094693_582.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
congratulations. Tell us about the VW.
BB
MkIII
suzuki
On 11, Apr 2010, at 10:06 PM, cspoke wrote:
>
> I flew my Mark 111 Xtra for the first time tonight. I need to do a few adjustments
but it was a great flight. I plan to be at Sun n Fun Friday and Saturday.
Hope to see some of you there...
>
> --------
> Craig Spoke
> Mark 111 Xtra
> VW Redrive
> Lillian, AL
> cspoke(at)gulftel.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293904#293904
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p4094693_582.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
> I flew my Mark 111 Xtra for the first time tonight. I need to do a few
adjustments but it was a great flight. I plan to be at Sun n Fun Friday and
Saturday. Hope to see some of you there...
>
> --------
> Craig Spoke
> Mark 111 Xtra
> VW Redrive
> Lillian, AL
Craig:
Congrats, my friend.
john hauck
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MkIII antenna location |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
This seems to work ok.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg9.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420p (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293913#293913
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Craig
Congratulations. We are going to want details on your flight. Bring photos
of your plane to Sun-N-Fun.
I'm heading for Sun-N-Fun some time in the next few days. We have some nasty
weather popping up so it is all dependant on getting a break. It is looking
like the weather is good after Tuesday for the rest of the week but the
weather people are being challenged more than normal.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "cspoke" <cspoke(at)gulftel.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:06 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: First Flight
>
> I flew my Mark 111 Xtra for the first time tonight. I need to do a few
> adjustments but it was a great flight. I plan to be at Sun n Fun Friday
> and Saturday. Hope to see some of you there...
>
> --------
> Craig Spoke
> Mark 111 Xtra
> VW Redrive
> Lillian, AL
> cspoke(at)gulftel.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293904#293904
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p4094693_582.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VG's............... |
| From: | "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com> |
> But it also had eight VGs spacer out on the wing ahead of the flaps. What do
you make of that?
>
Just a FYI type update. I was at the AERO 2010 expo at Friedrichshafen in Southern
Germany last week and got talking with VG manufacturer 'Micro Aerodynamics'
who explained that the VG's ahead of the flap area on the Boeing are to counteract
and delay the onset of a shock wave which in turn sets off a Dutch Roll
type instability that all swept wing aircraft are prone to. Apparently the venerable
B52 bomber had them also, and with a bit of poetic license there were
52 per side.
The ones ahead of the ailerons are for keeping the airflow attached at low speeds,
relatively speaking, just like in a Kolb. (there, now it's Kolb related).
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293930#293930
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: MkIII antenna location |
Mine sits in the middle of the pod pointing upwards. Its connected to a
hand held and works well. No noise . It was fitted by a RNZAF aircraft
fitter so I have no details of its instillation.
Regards
Downunder
MK111c
503
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: MkIII antenna location
Hi gang,
I'm currious where those of you with aircraft radios located your
antenna. I will be using an Icom A200 panel mount radio, and I'm
pondering where the best place would be to locate the antenna.
It seems like everywhere I think of, there is a logical reason NOT
to put it there!!
I have an idea where I might install it, but I wanted to hear where
others have put there's, first.
Oh yeah. I made one of those dipole antennas that Scott shared
with us. (actually, I made three. I figured it isn't that much trouble
to make more than one, while I was at it.)
Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading, as long as you have a
permanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane, I'd like to hear from you.
(even you lurkers....if your radio works good. If your radio doesn't
work well, keep lurking :-) )
Mike Welch
MkIII
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars
with Hotmail. Get busy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: engine noise |
still shy of the 20,000FD recommended above.>>
Thanks for your help.
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | zeprep251(at)aol.com |
Would that be uncle Craig of breakfast fame at MV?
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 11, 2010 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First Flight
> I flew my Mark 111 Xtra for the first time tonight. I need to do a few
adjustments but it was a great flight. I plan to be at Sun n Fun Friday
and Saturday. Hope to see some of you there...
>
> --------
> Craig Spoke
> Mark 111 Xtra
> VW Redrive
> Lillian, AL
Craig:
Congrats, my friend.
john hauck
Titus, Alabama
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
>Would that be uncle Craig of breakfast fame at MV?
>G.Aman
Gary=2C
No=2C this Craig is not Uncle Craig. Uncle Craig has been flying his MkI
II Xtra for quite a long time now.
Last I heard=2C he was installing an EFIS=2C or some kind of electronic mon
itoring system=2C plus=2C as usual=2C
more fiberglass parts. (frankly=2C I miss seeing his latest projects)
Craig Spoke is a new MkIII Xtra builder/pilot. He posts on the Kolb-list
every once in a while.
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Lakeland Weather |
Morning Gang:
Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday weather in Lakeland looks good, except for
wind.
Tuesday weather:
Tuesday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 83. East northeast wind between 6
and 15 mph, with gusts as high as 21 mph.
Today and Wednesday are much the same.
I'll plan on getting out of here at first light in the morning. Hopefully,
beat most the wind before it gets up in the afternoon. Right now at 0800,
it is dead calm. I I can get up and get loaded, get in the air by 0500,
I'll be at LAL before noon. It is a 412 mile flight direct, but I will
deviate a little to pick up fuel in Perry, FL. Other than that stop, I'll
only land when the urgent need arises.
Looking forward to seeing you all at Lakeland.
Save me a good spot by the gate to put up my tent, Rick. Getting too old to
push the mkIII through the grass. ;-)
john hauck
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net> |
Craig,
That is a great accomplishment! Looking forward to hearing more about your engine's
performance. What type VW, redrive, carb, etc.?
--------
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293947#293947
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading, as long as you have a
permanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane
Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Mike
I have a dipole made from the end of the piece of coax. The dipole is on
the inside of the nosecone, the center part of the coax runs up the left
side and across the top, while the braid runs across the bottom. The
location was changed a few times to get the best swr with an antenna
analyzer.
www.brigham.net/~byoung/antenna.html
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Boyd=2C
Interesting=2C yet simple antenna. I noticed you didn't mention a balun
=2C though. Is there a reason why you don't have one? Is a good SWR readi
ng sufficient information to say you don't need one? I don't know=2C I'm j
ust asking.
I'm still not too pleased with my choices of where I have to locate my an
tenna on my MkIII. I'm considering a) the nosecone area b) way up hi
gh=2C above the wing's center section c) mounted on the wing's leading
edge d) under rear portion of cabin surface
a) if I mount it (the dipole antenna) in the nosecone=2C one of the rods
poke out in my view through the windscreen. Not acceptable=2C IMO. I mig
ht be able to tilt it to where the upper rod is completely contained inside
the nosecone=2C and the lower rod would point more horizontally toward the
rear=2C but I give up reception in this configuration.
b) up top=2C this might be one of the better locations=2C but a dipole ant
enna's dimensions don't seen to work well. If I go with this location=2C I
would be better to go with a simple mast & and groundplane. The problem i
s...there may not be sufficient area to locate a proper ground- plane. hmm
mm?
c) mounted on the leading edge of a wing=2C whiskers pointing rearward. t
his would be the easiest & work the best!!! No modification to the antenn
a at all. may also look the dumbest place to put it. since the whiskers
could point rearward=2C they wouldn't be likely to be walked into=2C etc.
=2C but how dumb would it look to have an antenna on a wing? more hmmm?
BTW=2C if I did locate it here=2C I'd make a special rotatable mount=2C w
here the antenna could be rotated out of the way for storage. I've got a d
esign in mind where you remove a pin=2C spin the antenna out of the way=2C
and lock it in place with the pin. Still not my favorite spot!!!!!
d) under rear fuselage area. this may be one of the best places to locate
it. the question is whether I can fit it in properly. I may not be able
to stay with the dipole if I go here. If I can create a decent groundplane
out of 1/2" wide copper foil=2C and place the groundplane correctly on the
inside of the center of the cabin=2C then I could extend the one
antenna mast out and rearward. I think I'll investigate this one more.
Time to join the Matronics aeroelectrics forum and bug Bob Nuchols. He'd
know what to do.
Thanks for your input=2C guys.
Mike Welch
MkIII
From: by0ung(at)brigham.net
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MkIII antenna location
Date: Mon=2C 12 Apr 2010 08:35:57 -0600
Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading=2C as long as you have a pe
rmanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane
Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Mike
I have a dipole made from the end of the piece of coax. The dipole is on
the inside of the nosecone=2C the center part of the coax runs up the le
ft side and across the top=2C while the braid runs across the bottom. T
he location was changed a few times to get the best swr with an antenna ana
lyzer.
www.brigham.net/~byoung/antenna.html
Boyd Young
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox
.
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N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Boyd,
Interesting, yet simple antenna. I noticed you didn't mention a balun,
though. Is there a reason why you don't have one? Is a good SWR reading
sufficient information to say you don't need one? I don't know, I'm just
asking.
I'm still not too pleased with my choices of where I have to locate my
antenna on my MkIII. I'm considering a) the nosecone area b) way up
high, above the wing's center section c) mounted on the wing's leading
edge d) under rear portion of cabin surface
Mike Welch
MkIII
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike
No I did not mention a balun, (Balanced to un balanced antenna adapter)
every piece of wire will have a resonant frequency. And if you can cut the
wire to make it resonant at the frequency you want, keep the band width
wide or narrow enough for the desired application, make it reject unwanted
signals or noise. You have done a good job. The process of antenna
building can be as much of an art as it is a science. Go to your browser
and type in fractal antenna if you check out several of the links you will
see many different designs, they all work well. You could probably design
one that would be 6 inches or less in any dimension, and place it in the
front of your nose cone. You could start with a piece of circuit board,
strip all the conductor off one side, then start masking the other side
into one of the designs you could find links for. You may have to try
several in order to find one that tunes to the proper frequency, and has the
band width and swr you need. The links I followed showed the 50 ohm coax
connected at the center with no balun. One note, if you painted the
nosecone with polly fiber silver paint, put the antenna on the outside.
Instead of a full surface ground plane, the braid on my coax antenna is the
ground plane. You can use the metal structure of the plane as the ground
plane, and only use a wire whip. If I were to use an outside antenna on the
kolb it would be a whip antenna mounted on the rear part of the nosecone in
the center pointed down for about 6 to 8 inches then bent back on about a 45
to 60 deg angle. You could mount it further back but would have to come up
with something for support. Someone mentioned a rubber duck mounted on the
bottom. should work fine. If the antenna whip parallels too close to a
metal structure you will get too much radiation resistance, and not be able
to tune the antenna for best swr. The other antenna location would be on
top of the gap seal. Making sure the antenna was not too close to the
engine and could not get tangled in the prop. I am just thinking out loud
here. You could probably take an antenna like mine and hot glue it to a
piece of cardboard in one of the designs you fine in one of the links. In
the early days the designers would put up as loooong a wire as they could
fit in the property. Thinking that if they were to put electrons in the
air,,, the more surface area in the air the better, and later
discovered a resonant wire, different length for different frequencies,
worked much better. And this works for the transmitter as well as the
receiver.
All you wanted to know and then some.
Boyd Young
mkIII
ham radio N7WFM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
Mike,
I have done a bit of playing around with antenna's on both a Mark III
and my current Firestar. The first Mark III that I had, had a 1/8 th
wave ( I assume since it was very short ) on the top of the nose cone.
It worked some of the time, but was never good enough to keep the tower
operators happy, and it had a regular aircraft radio in it. Nav com, I
believe. I sold that aircraft, so its not a problem any more. I kept my
Firestar and only run an I Com hand held in it. My antenna system is
the same set up as that made by R Pike, although both were developed
independently. My ground plane is riveted to the bottom of the cage
tubes, and is in a V shape. If I had talked to Richard I would have
glued a round plate to the fabric and possibly would have had a more
efficient antenna. I have also experimented with the location and found
that mine seems to work the best on the bottom of the cage. I put it on
top of the wind screen just below the level of the wing and the
performance was bad enough that I immediately put it back on the bottom.
As you can see (a bit fuzzy ) I put a bend in it so that it wasn't
dragging on the ground, but the length is 23 1/2 inch. That is good
enough that I can talk to the wife ( last trip ) at 29 miles. She can
hear me better if I am flying away from her, remember my ground plane is
in a V with the widest end pointed to the rear. This is not by the way
line of sight, the house is down in a low spot. Now John told you about
his placement and antenna in an earlier post. Last year when he was
flying in we talked at 60 miles, He was up I think 9000 feet, and I had
no trouble hearing or understanding him.
I personally liked the antenna construction that was sent to you, The V
type with the balun, but I can find no where to put one on my plane that
I like. So I guess I will stick with what I have. Almost anything will
work well enough to talk to a tower at the normal 5 mile range, even a
rubber duck.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George RAndolph <GeoR38(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Invitation from George RAndolph |
See my latest photos, updates and friends on Bebo.
Click to view my profile.
http://www.bebo.com/T/2.2Bafl2JiTgmc9xjMQ0QT4A/inv/10507319515a106017233b10507306604c0d0e141
Please note: if you are not yet a Bebo member, you must register first.
.......................................................................
This email was sent to you at the direct request of George RAndolph .
You have not been added to a mailing list.
If you would prefer not to receive invitations from ANY Bebo members please click here - http://www.bebo.com/T/2.2Bafl2JiTgmc9xjMQ0QT4A/unsub/10507319515a106017233
Bebo, Inc., 795 Folsom St, #250, San Francisco, CA 94107, USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MkIII antenna location |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Mike, Boyd, all, Another great source of strictly antenna information is Bo
b
Weir, who writes a regular monthly column in "Kitplanes". He publishes a
manual for building dipoles for aircraft. It comes with a roll of copper
foil and a bag of baluns.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:42 AM, b young wrote:
> Boyd,
>
> Interesting, yet simple antenna. I noticed you didn't mention a balun,
> though. Is there a reason why you don't have one? Is a good SWR reading
> sufficient information to say you don't need one? I don't know, I'm just
> asking.
>
> I'm still not too pleased with my choices of where I have to locate my
> antenna on my MkIII. I'm considering a) the nosecone area b) way u
p
> high, above the wing's center section c) mounted on the wing's leadin
g
> edge d) under rear portion of cabin surface
>
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> No I did not mention a balun, (Balanced to un balanced antenna adapter)
> every piece of wire will have a resonant frequency. And if you can cut t
he
> wire to make it resonant at the frequency you want, keep the band width
> wide or narrow enough for the desired application, make it reject unwant
ed
> signals or noise. You have done a good job. The process of antenna
> building can be as much of an art as it is a science. Go to your browse
r
> and type in fractal antenna if you check out several of the links you
> will see many different designs, they all work well. You could probabl
y
> design one that would be 6 inches or less in any dimension, and place it
in
> the front of your nose cone. You could start with a piece of circuit boa
rd,
> strip all the conductor off one side, then start masking the other side
> into one of the designs you could find links for. You may have to try
> several in order to find one that tunes to the proper frequency, and has
the
> band width and swr you need. The links I followed showed the 50 ohm co
ax
> connected at the center with no balun. One note, if you painted the
> nosecone with polly fiber silver paint, put the antenna on the outside.
> Instead of a full surface ground plane, the braid on my coax antenna is t
he
> ground plane. You can use the metal structure of the plane as the groun
d
> plane, and only use a wire whip. If I were to use an outside antenna on
the
> kolb it would be a whip antenna mounted on the rear part of the nosecone
in
> the center pointed down for about 6 to 8 inches then bent back on about a
45
> to 60 deg angle. You could mount it further back but would have to come
up
> with something for support. Someone mentioned a rubber duck mounted on t
he
> bottom=85 should work fine. If the antenna whip parallels too close
to a
> metal structure you will get too much radiation resistance, and not be ab
le
> to tune the antenna for best swr. The other antenna location would be on
> top of the gap seal. Making sure the antenna was not too close to the
> engine and could not get tangled in the prop. I am just thinking out lou
d
> here. You could probably take an antenna like mine and hot glue it to a
> piece of cardboard in one of the designs you fine in one of the links.
In
> the early days the designers would put up as loooong a wire as they could
> fit in the property. Thinking that if they were to put electrons in the
> air,,, the more surface area in the air the better, and later
> discovered a resonant wire, different length for different frequencies,
> worked much better. And this works for the transmitter as well as the
> receiver.
>
>
> All you wanted to know and then some.
>
>
> Boyd Young
>
> mkIII
>
> ham radio N7WFM
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | lost my subscription |
Kolb people=2C
I mentioned yesterday I was going to sign up for the Matronics aeroelectr
ics list. I did=2C but I didn't realize that when you check your favorite
boxes to join=2C you also have to be sure to check the boxes of lists you a
re already on!! Didn't know that=2C so consequently
I got dropped from the Kob list early today!!! ( I thought it got awful q
uiet)
Now that I've found the reason why I haven't been getting any emails from
the Kolb list today=2C I'm too fall-down tired to deal with it (10:30 pm).
I do NOT like to be rude and ignor people's responses that try to help me
. I'll catch up with the replies to my antenna questions in the morning.
Thank you for understanding.
Mike Welch
thump!!
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inb
ox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O
N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
- Does anyone have any idea of how many Kolbs have been-produced of eac
h type, both by Old Kolb and New?- And about how many are still-under c
onstruction?- Just curious.
-
-
-------------------------
------------------------ Bi
ll Sullivan
-------------------------
------------------------ Wi
ndsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
------------------------ FS
447
-------------------------
--------------------
-
-------------------------
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Boyd and Larry=2C
Thanks for the detailed responses. All this information is helping me co
me to a final decision where to locate it.
As I said before=2C I'm leaning toward the fuselage=2C underneath and rea
rward (below the front of the boomtube). This seems to be pretty close to
where Richard Pike located his=2C and confirmed by Larry that it worked pre
tty good.
Presently=2C my plan is to build a dipole antenna=2C and make the groundp
lane out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips=2C in the shape of an "X". The BN
C bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X=2C where the 1/8" steel rod ma
st is fastened.
My final design seems to be a combination of a couple of other typical ai
rcraft radio antenna designs. (mast of the dipole Scott showed us=2C groun
dplane of common base station type design=2C etc.) Unless new and better i
nfo comes along=2C this is what I'll likely go with.
Locating the antenna at the top edge of the windscreen may not be a good
location for me. I had planned on putting my Garmin 296 antenna there=2C a
nd I understand there may be RF interference problems having two different
antenna types near each other. Belly mount antenna seems to be the best ca
ndidate=2C so far.
Putting a dipole out on the wing's leading edge would be the easiest=2C a
nd would probably work the best=2C but it would also look the dumbest=2C IM
O.
Thanks again to you guys that have responded to my request. You've been
very helpful=2C and am helping me get this figured out.
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with H
otmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=
PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Presently, my plan is to build a dipole antenna, and make the groundplane
out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips, in the shape of an "X". The BNC
bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X, where the 1/8" steel rod mast is
fastened.
Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike what you are describing is a quarter wave antenna with an X shaped
ground plane. A di pole ( di meaning two) is a radiating element with
one ground element usually mounted in a straight line, and in our case as
vertical as possible.
_________________ co _________________
where co is the coax feed point.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: engine noise |
- Boyd- Does this mean that using an oversize capacitor won't hurt?
-
-------------------------
----------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
----------------- Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
----------------- FS 447
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | MkIII antenna location |
Boyd=2C
Yup=2C you're right. I got too loose with my labels. I meant quarterwav
e.
On the aeroelectric list=2C a guy suggested checking out Bob Weir's (from
Kitplanes fame)website. I am very familiar with Bob Weir's designs=2C and
in fact=2C I built of the copper foil antennas already=2C back in 2001. I
built it with the intention of using it on my MkIII=2C but then recently s
ort of changed my mind. Now=2C I'm back to using it. It seems like it wil
l be the best one for me=2C after all.
Thanks to everyone for their help.
Mike Welch
From: by0ung(at)brigham.net
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MkIII antenna location
Date: Wed=2C 14 Apr 2010 08:56:32 -0600
Presently=2C my plan is to build a dipole antenna=2C and make the groundpla
ne out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips=2C in the shape of an "X". The BNC
bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X=2C where the 1/8" steel rod mast
is fastened.
Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike what you are describing is a quarter wave antenna with an X shaped gro
und plane. A di pole ( di meaning two) is a radiating element with one
ground element usually mounted in a straight line=2C and in our case as v
ertical as possible.
_________________ co _________________
where co is the coax feed point.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inb
ox.
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N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Re: engine noise |
Boyd- Does this mean that using an oversize capacitor won't hurt?
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks, Ct.
FS 447
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
No it will not hurt. The installation manual on the 912 says to install a
22,000 uf 25 volt capacitor between the positive output on the voltage
regulator and ground. That should be enough to smooth out the power. if
you went 40,000 uf it would it make it smother than smooth,, it wont
hurt but it may not do any additional good., going too large should not
hurt unless you are cramped for space and weight. If a person wanted he
could install one near the voltage regulator and one near the radio. If
you can only find a capacitor of half the desired amount,,, put two in
parallel, that will cause the values to add. On the electrolytic type
capacitors they are marked with a + and - make sure they are installed
correctly.
Two capacitors of the same rating mounted in series will give you the value
of 1/2 of a single capacitor.
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Allison birthday flyin |
| From: | EmailUser greg <greg(at)skyelink.com> |
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <Candyandtylern(at)aol.com>
Date: Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Allison birthday flyin
i got the e-mail of your.
In a message dated 3/16/2010 8:04:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
greg(at)skyelink.com writes:
Some people had problems opening last email maybe this one will work sorry
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: EmailUser greg <greg(at)skyelink.com>
Date: Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:51 AM
Subject: Allison birthday flyin
Your invited to my second annual birthday fun fly weekend. Located at Ace
Airfields in Farnham Va. Camping under the wing fun with food ,music &
great fun with other pilots like yourselves. The fun starts on July 9-10.
My airfield is located at GPS 76*36.071w & 37*56.500n close to the bay. The
runway is a north< south orientation it is a 2000 ft grass strip with a line
of trees on the west side of the field. When you approach from the north use
left traffic from the south use right traffic. Stay over the trees on the
west side of the field.I will be useing craf ch#12300 to help if needed. If
you choose to drive use GPS king ln farnham va or give me a call
(GREG) (804)450-6200 Hope you can attend.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Fire Fly with everything you need. |
A friend of mine needs to sell his Fire Fly due to health reasons. Below
is a description of what he has.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Trailer two year old Hallmark 26 foot, oversized, insulated, finished
interior with cabinets, AC/DC lighting. Soft-Ride suspension, Low Miles.
Excellent tires. Easy to heat with a Coleman Camp heater or electric
bathroom heater.
Firefly first flown two years ago. Wings built by Dennis Souder
(Original Kolb) and dry-stored.
Fuselage built as Oshkosh Display Demo -- serial number UL 001. Before
the FF production series. Travis and Brian says no changes were made in
the production. This is the original.
No damage except a very small neat smooth patch on one wing. I dropped
the wing in the wind.
Icom Radio with PPT and Lynx Headset and charger. Lynx helmet.
BRS-VLS chute. Two years since new.
Black Max brakes.
400 X 6 tires, mag wheels.
EIS, compass, ASI. Mounted in instrument pod that brings the panel close
enough to easily reach while harnessed.
Hardware for winter canopy
IVO three-blade
140 hour engine with new rings. I didn't need rings, but I was
encouraged by CPS to replace them.
Recent teardown and de-carbon. (about four or five hours on de-carbon)
Five and ten-gallon tank with frame fitted to match either.
Recently ramp-checked as LEGAL Part 103, I have the papers.
Rigged straight and level.
I have flown at Reno-Stead a few times since I lost my strip, and I
don't feel safe with the amount of traffic over there. On last flight it
took almost forty minutes to get airborne.
I must sell it or park it, as the nearest other alternate field is
outside my affordable driving range.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
If you are interested contact him at WrenchWilson(at)aol.com
Larry Cottrell
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | finally a bit of flying weather |
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0siAoTNYTZD
6KPbiDncNLfKZruRqx5nUO
The above link is to my spot tracking page. I prefer to use the hybrid
feature since it shows roads. There isn't much reason to have good sat
pictures here so you won't be able to get in too close.
The wind and weather finally moderated a bit or at least enough that I
felt like flying for the first time in almost a month. My interest was
to find a "two track" down into the Canyons that frame the Owyhee River
that would allow me to take a quad from this side of the river. If I go
the way that the roads are good I end up driving about 100 miles before
I can even get on my quad. This way it is only about 50 miles of two
track, and 15 hwy. It is very difficult here however because the roads
are not signed, and the land is so featureless as to not be much help.
So my plan was to press in GPS readings at the turns. Here in ranch
country all the roads lead to water, generally a stock pond, so it can
be a bit confusing actually trying to get somewhere.
I flew 103 miles in an hour and 34 minutes. I used 4.7 gallons of fuel
for 21.9 mpg average speed was 62 MPH There was a pretty good headwind
and it was a bit bumpy over the canyon coming back home.
My feet were cold by the time I got back on the ground, but it was nice
to get out for a while.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: finally a bit of flying weather |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Larry,
Good photos! I'm particularly curious about that partial circle feature in the
second photo. Any ideas of what that is or was? Is it a meteor crater or dead
volcano? Have you ever landed there or 4-wheeled to it to inspect/explore?
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294400#294400
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: finally a bit of flying weather |
Gang,
The area here is volcanic and that picture is of Scotts Butte, and to
my untrained eye appears to have been one of the spots that lava poured
from the depths, over the landscape. I have been up there on my quad.
Very interesting country.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: Thom Riddle
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:36 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: finally a bit of flying weather
Larry,
Good photos! I'm particularly curious about that partial circle
feature in the second photo. Any ideas of what that is or was? Is it a
meteor crater or dead volcano? Have you ever landed there or 4-wheeled
to it to inspect/explore?
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294400#294400
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Bearden <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/15/10 |
> Yes vertical:radio signals can be vertical OR horizontally polarized.
> Boyd Young
thanks Boyd! Great post.
GeoB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net> |
Kolbers:
Attached is a picture of Kolb folks who gathered by the Kolb display in Paradise
City on Friday, April 16.
Left to right:
George A., Rick N., Beauford, Sam B., Dave W., Gary A., John H.
Rick, Gary and John had their planes there. A couple of other Kolbs.... not sure
who they belonged to: Firestar II (For Sale/Sold), an Ultrastar (burning
up the circuit) and a Kolb on a mono float.
Overall a good day.... crowd was light.... weather was outstanding.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294516#294516
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/snf2010_004_small_163.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: finally a bit of flying weather |
I just got to this one.
Very good. I knew there had to be a way to get down there.
We need to pack up enough stuff for a few days survival, hit the trails
and make some gps tracks while looking for ways to get into the canyon,
the shortest ways.
john
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Cottrell
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:03 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: finally a bit of flying weather
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0siAoTNYTZD
6KPbiDncNLfKZruRqx5nUO
The above link is to my spot tracking page. I prefer to use the hybrid
feature since it shows roads. There isn't much reason to have good sat
pictures here so you won't be able to get in too close.
The wind and weather finally moderated a bit or at least enough that I
felt like flying for the first time in almost a month. My interest was
to find a "two track" down into the Canyons that frame the Owyhee River
that would allow me to take a quad from this side of the river. If I go
the way that the roads are good I end up driving about 100 miles before
I can even get on my quad. This way it is only about 50 miles of two
track, and 15 hwy. It is very difficult here however because the roads
are not signed, and the land is so featureless as to not be much help.
So my plan was to press in GPS readings at the turns. Here in ranch
country all the roads lead to water, generally a stock pond, so it can
be a bit confusing actually trying to get somewhere.
I flew 103 miles in an hour and 34 minutes. I used 4.7 gallons of fuel
for 21.9 mpg average speed was 62 MPH There was a pretty good headwind
and it was a bit bumpy over the canyon coming back home.
My feet were cold by the time I got back on the ground, but it was
nice to get out for a while.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: finally a bit of flying weather |
Sorry about this personal post to the Kolb List.
I did not look and realize it was addressed to the List when I hit the
send button.
Got back from Lakeland today. Came home a day early to prevent possibly
weathered in at Sun and Fun.
Had a good flight. MKIII and 912 performed flawlessly. Started getting
in shape again during the flight home.
850 sm round trip. Head wind and rough air going south 5.9 hours, 415
sm. Tail wind and smoother air flying north, think it was 5.0 and 435
sm.
Ready to fly to MV next month.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: finally a bit of flying weather
I just got to this one.
Very good. I knew there had to be a way to get down there.
We need to pack up enough stuff for a few days survival, hit the
trails and make some gps tracks while looking for ways to get into the
canyon, the shortest ways.
john
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Cottrell
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:03 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: finally a bit of flying weather
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0siAoTNYTZD
6KPbiDncNLfKZruRqx5nUO
The above link is to my spot tracking page. I prefer to use the
hybrid feature since it shows roads. There isn't much reason to have
good sat pictures here so you won't be able to get in too close.
The wind and weather finally moderated a bit or at least enough that
I felt like flying for the first time in almost a month. My interest was
to find a "two track" down into the Canyons that frame the Owyhee River
that would allow me to take a quad from this side of the river. If I go
the way that the roads are good I end up driving about 100 miles before
I can even get on my quad. This way it is only about 50 miles of two
track, and 15 hwy. It is very difficult here however because the roads
are not signed, and the land is so featureless as to not be much help.
So my plan was to press in GPS readings at the turns. Here in ranch
country all the roads lead to water, generally a stock pond, so it can
be a bit confusing actually trying to get somewhere.
I flew 103 miles in an hour and 34 minutes. I used 4.7 gallons of
fuel for 21.9 mpg average speed was 62 MPH There was a pretty good
headwind and it was a bit bumpy over the canyon coming back home.
My feet were cold by the time I got back on the ground, but it was
nice to get out for a while.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding
history, which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Good news and bad news |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
The wind finally stopped whistling down the plain long enough to get around
the patch a few times this evening. The air was smooth as glass and just the
thing after a day of being Grandpa.
Good news, replumbing the primer line seems to have fixed the rich running I
found on the trip down to Ponca City for the monthly breakfast bash two
weeks ago. And the fluorescent dye in the coolant helped me find the leak at
last.
Bad news, the coolant leak is in the radiator core. I guess I'll find out if
they recore motorcycle radiators (thank God, it's pre plastic tanks) or if I
have to have one custom made.
If I have to go the custom route, anybody know of a shop that's good and
inexpensive? Inexpensive being relative, like under $300?
Rick Girard
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Good news and bad news |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
What kind of M/C radiator are you using? I have used several different sorts of
M/C radiators with good success, and they can usually be found in junkyards for
under $75.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294614#294614
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Good news and bad news |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Richard, I used a radiator from a Honda Sabre 750. $20 bucks plus shipping
off eBay and $35 to have the inlet and outlet changed to accommodate the
sizes needed for the 582. If I'd known how easy it was to get reducers from
Sport Hoses I could have eliminated the rework.
Rick
On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> What kind of M/C radiator are you using? I have used several different
> sorts of M/C radiators with good success, and they can usually be found in
> junkyards for under $75.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294614#294614
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
Another nice day with promise, so after waiting for the temps to warm up
to tolerable, I decided to check the area South East of the house. The
terrain climbs quite a bit, so instead of my usual tendency to hug the
ground, I took the plane up to 7500 feet. The only problem of course to
waiting for the temps to climb is that it generally only occurs around
noon and the thermals start to kick in.
I am still working on developing parameters of my HKS and the Hacman
fuel system, so this time I planned to dial the EGT's up to near 1400
degrees or lean of peak which ever came first. I had a headwind so my
ground speed was about 56 MPH.
The first picture is looking South West into Nevada, and the next is
South East also in Nevada. The water course is the South Fork of the
Owyhee River and flows into the main stream of the Owyhee at 3 Forks, of
which I had written and shown video last year. At about this point (33
miles from home and still in radio contact - Mike W) I decided that the
day was just going to get rougher and I would rather be typing than
flying.
The Steen's is in the background, about 80 statue miles away.
As I approached the lower terrain on the final leg home I decided to get
closer to the ground to get out of some of the thermals and I began to
dial back on the Hacman to keep my EGT's within the proper range.
( As I mentioned it is still pretty cool outside and I was of course
wearing gloves. My Mag switches are just above the Hacman dial. As one
gets closer to the ground the effect of the Hacman system is such that
the EGT's climb. As you throttle back they also rise. )
Well, my EGT's kept raising no matter that I was dialing it back and
eventually off. I put the choke full on to keep the fuel as rich as I
could get it, and had to throttle up to keep it below 1400. ( If the
EGT's get high enough the engine eventually leans out to the point that
it stops from fuel starvation.) I happened to be over the road that you
can see in the last picture and you can be sure that I stayed there
while I was trying to get a handle on what was happening. First I called
the wife and informed her of my location and the possibility that I
might have to set down, but that I had a good spot to do it. About that
time I looked down at the Hacman dial and discovered that with the
gloves on, I had switched off one mag switch. :-/ Interestingly enough
I had not heard the difference in engine noise. I flicked it back on and
the engine began cooling immediately. I must say that I felt quite a bit
cooler as well. I informed the wife of the improved condition and again
cut back across country to go home. From that point the rest of the trip
was uneventful.
Flight was 1 hour 18 minutes, fuel burn was 3 gallons, covered 72 miles,
average speed was 60 MPH.
Conclusion one:
The Hacman system works and helps conserve fuel, but you need to
constantly monitor it, and be aware of what it can do to you if you do
not. The EIS alarm is very helpful, and saved me from an engine out. The
flashing light alerted me to the problem before it became critical. ( I
had it set to 1400 degrees. ) As in most things concerning aircraft, and
our ability to survive flying them, is influenced by ones actions or
omissions. If you snooze you are going to have trouble. On most flights,
if fuel is not a problem, and I am flying close to the ground, I will
not use the Hacman system. It will save you fuel at altitude. So on a
trip, you bet! Otherwise no.
conclusion two:
The HKS isn't going to run for very long on one mag.
conclusion three:
I could use more panel space.
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0siAoTNYTZD
6KPbiDncNLfKZruRqx5nUO
Here again is the track that I flew today.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Larry/Gang:
Looks good.
Be careful.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lhaggerty" <lhaggerty(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Vertical speed indicator |
If any one has a VSI for sale, Let me know please. Pete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | short video of today's trip |
Here is a short You Tube video of today's trip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DHcx3hxfzk
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: back in the air in michigan |
got the firestar out of the pole barn today and pre flighted it....gased
her up and the 503 fired up on the lst pull of the rope....smoked a lot from
being fogged last fall but cleared up and run so good that even thou it was
a bit cold I could not resist taking off for a about a half hour of flying
around the runway here on the farm...was good to get back to flying after
the winter and should get in 2 or 3 days before we get some
showers....looking forward to a summer of fun flying in the firestar.....Jswan
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | 503 on a Firefly |
Kolbers , Anybody on the list ever put a 503 on a Firefly?They still make t
hem and they have dual ignition, A single carb ? =0A-Chris Davis=0AKXP 50
3 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com> |
clrprop wrote:
> John H.
> I got it from a gentleman in Ohio by the name of Mark Peterson, but I don't think
he was the original builder.
>
> Slyck
> The grass mowing is not my job. :)
> It's tail heavy. I'm going to have to put some lead in the nose before the maiden.
That is so cute (hope you don't mind me calling it cute)! I love it! Those are
some great shots too.
Would a couple GI Joe dolls add enough weight? :) jk
--------
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar
Rotax 503 DCSI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294762#294762
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: back in the air in michigan |
| From: | "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com> |
Arksey(at)aol.com wrote:
> got the firestar out of the pole barn today and pre flighted it....gased her
up and the 503 fired up on the lst pull of the rope....smoked a lot from being
fogged last fall but cleared up and run so good that even thou it was a bit
cold I could not resist taking off for a about a half hour of flying around
the runway here on the farm...was good to get back to flying after the winter
and should get in 2 or 3 days before we get some showers....looking forward
to a summer of fun flying in the firestar.....Jswan
>
> do not archive
> jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
>
Sounds like a good time. Makes me almost wish I had a pull start. Couldn't fly
yesterday because of a dead battery. It has been so windy this winter in GA...not
very many good flying days. I'm hoping for good weather next Saturday
to be able to fly to the Vidalia airshow again this year.
--------
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar
Rotax 503 DCSI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294775#294775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: short video of today's trip |
Larry/Gang:
We are going to have a population explosion in Malheur County, Oregon,
next month. The population will increase by 4 or 5, maybe more. The
coyotes and antelope won't have a chance when confronted with the Kolb
Air Force.
In 4 weeks, I'll be hitting the trail for Monument Valley, Utah, and The
Rock House, Burns Junction, Oregon.
My little MKIII did great on my flight to Lakeland and back. I have a
few small maintenance matters to take care of and I will be ready to go.
Times a wasting!
john hauck
mkIII - 3,005.5 hours
The county that I live in, Malheur, (Spanish for bad water) is the
least populated in Oregon. Just right!
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: short video of today's trip |
Sounds good John, the freezer is full.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: short video of today's trip
Larry/Gang:
We are going to have a population explosion in Malheur County, Oregon,
next month. The population will increase by 4 or 5, maybe more. The
coyotes and antelope won't have a chance when confronted with the Kolb
Air Force.
In 4 weeks, I'll be hitting the trail for Monument Valley, Utah, and
The Rock House, Burns Junction, Oregon.
My little MKIII did great on my flight to Lakeland and back. I have a
few small maintenance matters to take care of and I will be ready to go.
Times a wasting!
john hauck
mkIII - 3,005.5 hours
The county that I live in, Malheur, (Spanish for bad water) is the
least populated in Oregon. Just right!
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 503 on a Firefly |
| From: | "Ralph B" <ul15(at)juno.com> |
I have an Original Firestar that is a sturdier machine than the Firefly. I was
told by Dennis Souder not to use any engine larger than a 40hp Rotax 447. I'm
a 200 lb guy and that 447 shoots me up in the air with no problem. It has plenty
of power. A 503 would be too much power and use more fuel. I'm sure the 447
is all the Firefly can handle. A 503 would also make the Firefly an overweight
ultralight.
Ralph B
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
1000 hours
23 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
2 years flying it
120 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294845#294845
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: back in the air in Michigan |
Hi Rick,
have a safe trip home.....give me a ring when you are at Grand ledge
and maybe I can meet up for a visit......glad you had a good time at Sun and
Fun, saw the pictures of the group...I sure enjoyed the times I spent
there.... it was there that I saw a firestar being flown every day that
convinced me to buy one....find a place we can camp out for a few days up near
Hart and we will organize a get together to fly the lake michigan shore line
this summer..weather good here today, will fly some this evening.......jswan
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:back in the air in Michigan |
Cristal,
hope you get good weather for the Vidalia air show next
weekend....last year some of us kolb pilots here in michigan got together at the
fly
ins.....was fun....we have a email group to keep each other informed on when
and where we plan on attending, worked good....plan on the same thing this
year. Weather is always a concern and cancels some of our plans...yes there
is benefits to simplicity....my 503 starts so easy I see no need for a
electric starter.....and I am 79 years old...I do have a small battery for the
electric fuel pump and to power up my GPS but that is all of the modern
stuff I have on board.....fly safe....jswan
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
Things seem to be a bit slow, so here goes.
I tried really hard to keep my nose to the grind stone and get some
stuff done around the house. Yesterday was gorgeous and today is even
better. The temp started climbing at an unprecedented rate, (79 now ) so
I turned off the news got my rake and went to where I left off on the
runway. It sure funny but ground that won't grow anything but tumble
weeds and Goats heads (nasty caltrops type of plant) can sure grow
rocks. They just pop up every where you don't want them, but I digress-
There I was raking up a sweat and the wind just wouldn't blow. Finally I
couldn't stand it any longer so back I go, Tell the wife where I intend
to go, turn on the Spot tracking and roll out the Firestar.
I decided to follow the old ION Hwy to Rome and then see what interested
me. That is the Idaho,Oregon and Nevada Hwy. It was in use in the early
days of settlement here in the West. It lead into the mining camps of
Silver City and the like. (Yes there is one in Idaho, and probably most
every other state in the union.) The road goes down into Rome where one
of the early families built a Toll Bridge to cross the Owyhee River. I
then flew upriver dodging Ducks and Geese and then turned along the
Pillars Of Rome. ( settlement of a cafe with some gas pumps named Rome
because the early settlers thought that was what Roman Pillars should
look like.) I then took a better look at Scotts Butte, since some who
saw yesterdays post and pictures were curious.
As I mentioned it was the orifice where most of the Lava in this area
probably spewed out of.
Here is the URL for the Spot tracking if you are interested-
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0siAoTNYTZD
6KPbiDncNLfKZruRqx5nUO
I also took a video that is about 8 minutes long that I will try to
upload to You Tube. When I get it done,I will supply the URL.
Flight was 45 minutes, burned less that 2.2 gallons. Did not use the
Hac-man system.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mrs. Michelle Cole" <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: short video of today's trip |
Are there any Kolbers near Chattanooga or LaFayett, Georgia?
---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 17:10:34 -0600
>From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (on behalf of "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>)
>Subject: Kolb-List: short video of today's trip
>To:
>
> Here is a short You Tube video of today's trip.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DHcx3hxfzk
>
> Larry
>
> Note: If you forward this email, please delete the
> forwarding history, which includes my email address.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | video of todays flight |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RCwu2jGmi0
I apparently screwed up in that I use copy written music, so there is no
sound. Sorry!
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: video of todays flight |
> That is your best video yet, in my opinion, not because of the lack of
music track but because of the captions telling us what we are looking at as
we fly over it with you.
> --------
> Thom Riddle
Thom/Gang:
I especially enjoy Larry C's vids.
Being an Alabama boy, I feel extremely fortunate to have spent a lot of time
on the ground and in the air traveling the same routes that Larry shoots.
Most of the trails Larry flies, we ride on the quads in the Fall. It is a
very harsh and unforgiving part of the world.
Looking forward to renewing my aquaintence with the area next month and
relaxing at the Rock House.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly slide show |
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
Jack- How are you doing on the new engine? Haven't heard from you lately.
Bill,
Initially thought that the engine quit on the maiden flight due to
electrical problems. Did not like the way I had mounted the voltage
regulator and magneto kill switch. The regulator leads wiggled loose and
shorted. Reworked the whole works to come up with a better mounting and in
doing so saved a little weight. Also insulated the lead clips with shrink
tubing and then wire tied them in a way to prevent the clips from ever
coming loose. Also, to get the engine up to speed I purchased new set of 54
inch IVO ultralight blades.
Mounted the whole works and tried starting the engine. Found that the
engine would run a burst after the engine was primed and that was it. I
took the carburetor off and looked at the lower end to see if the metering
needle valve was stuck, and replaced the regulator diaphragm and the pump
parts. After this I have been able to get the engine to run, but now I am
having trouble with the engine loading up on fuel upon closing the throttle
after a high rpm run on the high speed jet. Upon cranking the engine
without priming, the engine floods. This indicates that the metering needle
is not seating, or very high flow resistance through the air filter.
Tomorrow, I will remove the air cleaner and see if the flooding problem
continues. If so, I will remove the carburetor and blow out the fuel
galleys up to and through the metering needle seat. And the try again.
The trials and tribulations of changing engines and learning about the
Tillotson carburetor.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly slide show |
At 08:58 PM 4/20/2010, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>The trials and tribulations of changing engines and learning about the
>Tillotson carburetor.
Jack, here's a couple of sites that might have some useful
information. It's a ppg site but engines are engines...
http://aerocorsair.com/id27.htm
http://aerocorsair.com/id28.htm
http://www.aerocorsair.com/id150.htm
-Dana
--
When I was young I was told that anyone could be President. I'm beginning
to believe it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firefly slide show |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Jack, I had many of the same problems with the Mikuni pumper carb on a
Zenoah engine. In my case, the problem was a very small tear in the pump
diaphragm. The solution was real simple, dump the pumper carb (Mikuni had
stopped making the carb and repair kits for it) and replace with a
conventional slide carb and separate fuel pump. Started first pull and never
had another problem.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
>
> Jack- How are you doing on the new engine? Haven't heard from you lately.
>
> Bill,
>
> Initially thought that the engine quit on the maiden flight due to
> electrical problems. Did not like the way I had mounted the voltage
> regulator and magneto kill switch. The regulator leads wiggled loose and
> shorted. Reworked the whole works to come up with a better mounting and in
> doing so saved a little weight. Also insulated the lead clips with shrink
> tubing and then wire tied them in a way to prevent the clips from ever
> coming loose. Also, to get the engine up to speed I purchased new set of
> 54
> inch IVO ultralight blades.
>
> Mounted the whole works and tried starting the engine. Found that the
> engine would run a burst after the engine was primed and that was it. I
> took the carburetor off and looked at the lower end to see if the metering
> needle valve was stuck, and replaced the regulator diaphragm and the pump
> parts. After this I have been able to get the engine to run, but now I am
> having trouble with the engine loading up on fuel upon closing the throttle
> after a high rpm run on the high speed jet. Upon cranking the engine
> without priming, the engine floods. This indicates that the metering
> needle
> is not seating, or very high flow resistance through the air filter.
>
> Tomorrow, I will remove the air cleaner and see if the flooding problem
> continues. If so, I will remove the carburetor and blow out the fuel
> galleys up to and through the metering needle seat. And the try again.
>
> The trials and tribulations of changing engines and learning about the
> Tillotson carburetor.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly slide show |
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:48:00 -0500
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
>
Jack, I had many of the same problems with the Mikuni pumper carb on a
Zenoah engine. In my case, the problem was a very small tear in the pump
diaphragm. The solution was real simple, dump the pumper carb (Mikuni had
stopped making the carb and repair kits for it) and replace with a
conventional slide carb and separate fuel pump. Started first pull and never
had another problem.
>
Rick,
Supposedly there are several engines out there using this carburetor. I am
still on the lower end of the learning curve, so I will keep working with
for a while to see if I can master it.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)hughes.net> |
I finally got back to working on the brakes. The c-90 brake calipers now being
used on the MK-3x and others require a brake pedal ratio of 4:1 to have really
good braking power. The pedals being used on our Kolbs have a ratio of 1:1
or less, according to Matco. If you don't seem to have good braking power, this
is probably your problem. I have been thinking about this for a while, trying
to find an easy way to modify what we already have. The picture should answer
any questions you may have to modify your existing pedals. This arrangement
should give you a ratio of 3:1. You could improve even more on this by raising
the top of the pedal another inch giving you the full 4:1 ratio called out
for the the instructions.
Rick Lewis
--------
Rick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295180#295180
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00026_247.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com> |
could you press one of the pedals in a pic to show how this system works
from what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage
but I could be wrong
working to much to get any flying in
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Lewis <cktman(at)hughes.net>
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 8:35 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
I finally got back to working on the brakes. The c-90 brake calipers now
being
sed on the MK-3x and others require a brake pedal ratio of 4:1 to have rea
lly
ood braking power. The pedals being used on our Kolbs have a ratio of 1:1
or
ess, according to Matco. If you don't seem to have good braking power, th
is is
robably your problem. I have been thinking about this for a while, trying
to
ind an easy way to modify what we already have. The picture should answer
any
uestions you may have to modify your existing pedals. This arrangement sh
ould
ive you a ratio of 3:1. You could improve even more on this by raising th
e top
f the pedal another inch giving you the full 4:1 ratio called out for the
the
nstructions.
Rick Lewis
--------
ick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295180#295180
ttachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00026_247.jpg
-========================
========================
===========
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-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
========================
===========
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-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
Yeah=2C Ellery=2C that's what I thought=2C too. It must work better in rea
l life than it looks like in the picture.
I'm going to be installing my brake cylinders and fluid tomorrow!
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
Date: Wed=2C 21 Apr 2010 21:17:13 -0400
From: elleryweld(at)aol.com
could you press one of the pedals in a pic to show how this system works f
rom what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage but
I could be wrong
working to much to get any flying in
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Lewis <cktman(at)hughes.net>
Sent: Wed=2C Apr 21=2C 2010 8:35 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
I finally got back to working on the brakes. The c-90 brake calipers now b
eing
used on the MK-3x and others require a brake pedal ratio of 4:1 to have rea
lly
good braking power. The pedals being used on our Kolbs have a ratio of 1:1
or
less=2C according to Matco. If you don't seem to have good braking power
=2C this is
probably your problem. I have been thinking about this for a while=2C tryi
ng to
find an easy way to modify what we already have. The picture should answer
any
questions you may have to modify your existing pedals. This arrangement sh
ould
give you a ratio of 3:1. You could improve even more on this by raising th
e top
of the pedal another inch giving you the full 4:1 ratio called out for the
the
instructions.
Rick Lewis
--------
Rick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295180#295180
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00026_247.jpg
rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hot
mail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P
ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nick Cassara" <nickc(at)mtaonline.net> |
| Subject: | Best Kolb video... |
Larry,
My vote for best Kolb video goes to Pillars of Rome. I watch everything you
post and am impressed with all your productions. Keep them coming!
Thanks,
Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)hughes.net> |
This arrangement will give you a 3:1 ratio at the pedal. Look closely at the attach
points and you will understand how it works. The lower two bolts are 1"
out from the pedals plate, and the top of the pedal is 3" up from this point.
This give you the 3:1 ratio. After making the initial prototype you could instantly
feel the difference. Try to think of this as a crowbar pulling a nail,
only this is pushing a rod.
--------
Rick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295240#295240
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall
that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes
them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage.
The other thing to consider is that increasing leverage, whether mechanical
or hydraulic, can get you to brake lock and a quick flip over on your back.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote:
> could you press one of the pedals in a pic to show how this system works
> from what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage but
> I could be wrong
>
> working to much to get any flying in
>
> *Ellery Batchelder Jr.*
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Lewis <cktman(at)hughes.net>
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 8:35 pm
> Subject: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
>
>
> I finally got back to working on the brakes. The c-90 brake calipers now being
> used on the MK-3x and others require a brake pedal ratio of 4:1 to have really
> good braking power. The pedals being used on our Kolbs have a ratio of 1:1 or
> less, according to Matco. If you don't seem to have good braking power, this
is
> probably your problem. I have been thinking about this for a while, trying to
> find an easy way to modify what we already have. The picture should answer any
> questions you may have to modify your existing pedals. This arrangement should
> give you a ratio of 3:1. You could improve even more on this by raising the
top
> of the pedal another inch giving you the full 4:1 ratio called out for the the
> instructions.
>
> Rick Lewis
>
> --------
> Rick Lewis
>
> (VW Watercooled Engine)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295180#295180
>
>
> Attachments:
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00026_247.jpg
>
>
> ===================================
> rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ===================================
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
Richard,
<< bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall that Matco
only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes them, I
checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage >>
Am I missing something? I thought the hydraulic leverage was the ratio
of the area of the two pistons involved. Increasing the size of the
master piston reduces this ratio.
Tom Kuffel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Need more braking power? |
- Increasing the cylinder size from 5/8" to 3/4" will give you a quicker
responce, because it will move more oil for the same stroke.- It will als
o give you less applied force at the brakes for the same pedal pressure.-
The pedal will move less, and need to be pressed harder to achieve the sam
e braking force.- Changing the pedal geometry allows you to apply more le
verage against the master cylinder, and down to the wheel.- It's a balanc
ing act.
-
-------------------------
--------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
--------------- Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
--------------- FS 447
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)hughes.net> |
This drawing, from Matco, is were I got the idea on the configuration I'm presenting
to the group. Going to there site will clear up anyone having a hard time
understanding how this pedal configuration increases your braking power. What
I was trying to do is come up with an easy way that everyone can increase
there braking power with a simple modification. It really does make an incredible
difference. I did a similar method on my previous home built, a Cozy.
Rick Lewis
--------
Rick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295329#295329
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/2_140.bmp
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com> |
I am pretty good at working with mechanical things and I just dont see ho
w that setup will do what you say it will you can send a pic of a pedal pu
shed and that will tell the story much better than your explanation
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Lewis <cktman(at)hughes.net>
Sent: Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:54 am
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
This arrangement will give you a 3:1 ratio at the pedal. Look closely at
the
ttach points and you will understand how it works. The lower two bolts ar
e 1"
ut from the pedals plate, and the top of the pedal is 3" up from this poin
t.
his give you the 3:1 ratio. After making the initial prototype you could
nstantly feel the difference. Try to think of this as a crowbar pulling
a
ail, only this is pushing a rod.
--------
ick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295240#295240
========================
===========
-= - The Kolb-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:01:19 -0500
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
>
Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall
that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes
them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage.
>
Rick,
What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake. The
higher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force. If
one assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the
hydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch
diameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi. For the 5/8 inch diameter
piston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi. So for the same pedal effort the
smaller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com> |
I agree with Jack's figures
"The drawing you submitted to the list" if you have your Points as the dr
awings show you will only have changed the length of your pedal and not
gained anything by adding the extra linkage
because both both setups are doing the same thing with the same arm lengt
hs pushing the plunger down to make pressure in the brake system where yo
u are Gaining on braking power is having longer brake pedals that is all
it boils down to You changed the length of your brake pedals from 1X to
2.5X that is what your drawings show
I have heal brakes that worked good with small tires on ,when I went with
the 800-6 tires I lengthened my brake pedals 1.5 inches longer to make th
em as good as with the smaller tires I didn't change anything else on the
pedals other than the length from the pivot point north
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Sent: Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:51 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:01:19 -0500
rom: Richard Girard
epending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall
hat Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes
hem, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage.
Rick,
What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake. The
igher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force. If
ne assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the
ydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch
iameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi. For the 5/8 inch diamete
r
iston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi. So for the same pedal effort th
e
maller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking.
Jack B. Hart FF004
inchester, IN
========================
===========
-= - The Kolb-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
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-
-========================
========================
===========
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-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Oops! My only excuse is that I was six hours into watching my 3 year old
grandson, blaring Wallace and Gromit video going in the background and
trying to think all at the same time.
Rick
On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote:
> I agree with Jack's figures
>
> "The drawing you submitted to the list" if you have your Points as the
> drawings show you will only have changed the length of your pedal and not
> gained anything by adding the extra linkage
> because both both setups are doing the same thing with the same arm
> lengths pushing the plunger down to make pressure in the brake system where
> you are Gaining on braking power is having longer brake pedals that is all
> it boils down to You changed the length of your brake pedals from 1X to 2.5X
> that is what your drawings show
> I have heal brakes that worked good with small tires on ,when I went with
> the 800-6 tires I lengthened my brake pedals 1.5 inches longer to make them
> as good as with the smaller tires I didn't change anything else on the
> pedals other than the length from the pivot point north
> *Ellery Batchelder Jr.*
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:51 pm
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?
>
>
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:01:19 -0500
> From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
> >
> Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall
> that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes
> them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage.
> >
>
> Rick,
>
> What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake. The
> higher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force. If
> one assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the
> hydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch
> diameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi. For the 5/8 inch diameter
> piston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi. So for the same pedal effort the
> smaller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
> ===================================
> rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ===================================
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: video of todays flight |
| From: | "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com> |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Larry,
>
> That is your best video yet
I agree! That was great!
--------
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar
Rotax 503 DCSI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295359#295359
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New intercom and Waycross Sun N Fun video |
| From: | "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com> |
I broke down and bought the intercom that Jim Kmet said worked well in his Mark
III, the Sigtronics SPO-22N. It worked really well with just me and my radio
this evening. Now I have to find a guinea pig for a passenger to test out communication
in the cockpit. :D
I did not get to go to Sun N Fun but our airport did serve BBQ, hot dogs, chips
and sweet tea to those who stopped by to fuel up, so we got to see a lot of different
planes. I was able to go out to the airport a couple of those days and
took some pictures and video. I also got some pictures from a friend who served
up BBQ everyday, and so I combined them and made this video. The first
minute or so is a slideshow of just pictures and is silent. Then you will see
and hear some takeoffs and some T-34s doing some formation flying over our airport.
It was fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOC-dadR34
--------
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar
Rotax 503 DCSI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295360#295360
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? |
everyone can increase there braking power with a simple modification.>>
I can see that just increasing the pedal length will increase the leverage
available to the pilot and thus increase the pressure he can apply. Are
there any limiting factors `downline? Joints and pipes premumably have an
upper pressure limit.
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com> |
| Subject: | for sale - Kolb Firestar II |
Kolb Firestar II - Estate Sale. Hirth, Powerfin. Built by A&P. Engine with
run-in time only plus less than 1 hour. Entire aircraft less than 1 hour
TTSN. Includes trailer. My father built this airplane and I am handling his
estate. The airplane is in Sequim, WA.
Larry E. James
Redmond, WA 98052
425-638-3133
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Deckard" <flypoker(at)windstream.net> |
| Subject: | firestar measurements |
I will be picking up a firestar and hauling it. I need to know what
height the bottom of boom tube is from the ground at front of the tail
feathers, also about mid way and at the fuselage. I plan to support the
tail with stryrofoam blocks in a few spots.
Thanks
Jerry Deckard
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry James
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 10:48 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: for sale - Kolb Firestar II
Kolb Firestar II - Estate Sale. Hirth, Powerfin. Built by A&P. Engine
with run-in time only plus less than 1 hour. Entire aircraft less than 1
hour TTSN. Includes trailer. My father built this airplane and I am
handling his estate. The airplane is in Sequim, WA.
Larry E. James
Redmond, WA 98052
425-638-3133
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Partnership Mark III-C |
| From: | "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0(at)gmail.com> |
Sadly, my partner Jeff needs to sell his share of our Mark III-C. We're based in
Pompano Beach, FL (KPMP,) have a hanger that costs $60/month, and a great Kolb
built by Steven Green. Rotax 912 ULS (100hp), 600 hours on the engine, 630
on the airframe, fresh annual. We meet the requirements for the 1500 tbo.
Price is $11,000 for 1/2 ownership.
Anyone interested should call Dave Watkins at 954-608-5423.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295447#295447
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/2001_kolb_mark_31_112.doc
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Partnership Mark III-C |
| From: | "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0(at)gmail.com> |
Apologies: I inadvertently included the information page that Steven provided when
he originally sent me the photos he took of our Kolb. Please contact me at
954-608-5423 if you're interested in more information on the aircraft.
We have made some changes in the equipment list:
Sigtronics intercom
Garmin 196 GPS
Two DRE ANR headsets
Transponder w/ Mode C
New gel battery
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295449#295449
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ kinne <russkinne(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Partnership Mark III-C |
Dave
Sorry that 'change' mandates a sale of 1/2 of your Mark111. That must
be sad for all concerned.
Does that mean the total ownership could be sold for a single payment
of $22K?
Russ K
On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:06 PM, Watkinsdw wrote:
>
>
> Sadly, my partner Jeff needs to sell his share of our Mark III-C.
> We're based in Pompano Beach, FL (KPMP,) have a hanger that costs
> $60/month, and a great Kolb built by Steven Green. Rotax 912 ULS
> (100hp), 600 hours on the engine, 630 on the airframe, fresh
> annual. We meet the requirements for the 1500 tbo.
>
> Price is $11,000 for 1/2 ownership.
> Anyone interested should call Dave Watkins at 954-608-5423.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295447#295447
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2001_kolb_mark_31_112.doc
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Partnership Mark III-C |
| From: | "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0(at)gmail.com> |
Good question, Russ.
I see that as the very last resort.
Price-wise, 11k is a discount to encourage
an investor. A sale of the aircraft would require
a bit more.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295482#295482
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BNC bulkhead connector |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Jimmy,
Show this to your local Radio Shack sales clerk.
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=bnc%20connector&origkw=bnc%20connector&sr=1
or
http://tinyurl.com/22o95ly
I suspect this particular clerk was selling underwear at K-Mart last week and will
be flipping burgers next week.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295613#295613
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net> |
| Subject: | Kuntzleman SC 103 strobe |
Hey Kolbers,
I just bought a Kuntzleman Electronics SC 103 self-contained strobe
rather than installing rear view mirrors to reduce the danger of getting
rammed in the butt by some 150 kph GA pilot who didn't see me. I'd
appreciate any Shirleys from posters with experience. Shirley do this
and Shirley don't do that. You know the drill. I'm mounting it on a
FireFly with a 447 and a battery, so any advice at all.
Mr. Alexander, my son and grandson, Dave and Goober, went to Sun 'N
Fun. Told him to look up the Kolbers gathered there. He said it's so
big he never even got sight of a Kolb. Well, at least my son _almos_t
got to meet you and the other Kolbers... Also, George, I got your email
about pics and captions about the trailer I converted into a hangar.
Spring's BUSY, but as soon as I get a break that doesn't take away from
my time in the sky I'll get it done and email it to you.
Thanks in advance for any hints, advice and Shirleys re: mounting my strobe.
Regards,
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kuntzleman SC 103 strobe |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Shirley you jest. The number one reason people turn left in front of fire
engines is that they didn't see them. Be thankful it's a real big sky. :-}
Rick Girard
On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 2:19 PM, David Kulp wrote:
> Hey Kolbers,
>
> I just bought a Kuntzleman Electronics SC 103 self-contained strobe rather
> than installing rear view mirrors to reduce the danger of getting rammed in
> the butt by some 150 kph GA pilot who didn't see me. I'd appreciate any
> Shirleys from posters with experience. Shirley do this and Shirley don't do
> that. You know the drill. I'm mounting it on a FireFly with a 447 and a
> battery, so any advice at all.
>
> Mr. Alexander, my son and grandson, Dave and Goober, went to Sun 'N Fun.
> Told him to look up the Kolbers gathered there. He said it's so big he
> never even got sight of a Kolb. Well, at least my son *almos*t got to
> meet you and the other Kolbers... Also, George, I got your email about pics
> and captions about the trailer I converted into a hangar. Spring's BUSY,
> but as soon as I get a break that doesn't take away from my time in the sky
> I'll get it done and email it to you.
>
> Thanks in advance for any hints, advice and Shirleys re: mounting my
> strobe.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
>
> FireFly 11DMK
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kuntzleman SC 103 strobe |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
Run it every time the engine's making noise. And if you are having to play hangar
queen for a while, go turn it on and run it anyway. The more you tickle 'em,
the happier they are.
Other than that - if you mostly fly real low, mount it on the faded side.
Richard PIke
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295668#295668
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kuntzleman SC 103 strobe |
| From: | "olendorf" <olendorf(at)gmail.com> |
Here is where I placed my strobe. It seems to work pretty well and is visible from
mostly every direction. It is always on when the engine is producing electricity.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295671#295671
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/strobe_203.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | remembering Dave Bigelow |
Firestar pilot
http://tinyurl.com/2eu3bqa
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello All,
One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to get back
to a runway after take off. On Sunday, I got a chance to do some testing
and I got a video of it. The runway I am flying from is about 2500 feet long.
I found that it required about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back to the
end of the runway. I tried it at 400' but the ending was not pretty (nothing
bent). The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not make the runway because
I had traveled further away from the runway than the extra 100' in altitude
allowed me to make up. My engine has a clutch, so the prop windmills at
engine idle just like it would windmill if the engine failed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
FWIW
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Portland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295752#295752
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
interesting info jason.....my advice for what it is worth that with a
engine failure on take it is best to go forward rather than trying to turn back
around to the runway. keep us informed on any future tests....jswan
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
I found that it required about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back to
the end of the runway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
FWIW
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Portland, OR
Jason O/Gang:
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
What is the name of your airstrip?
Where is it located?
Does it have an identifier?
GPS coordinates?
Would I need prior permission to land there?
If I make it to the West Coast of Oregon, I will probably come through the
Portland area next month after I depart The Rock House the end of May.
john hauck
MKIII - 3,006.2 hours
912ULS - 437.7 hours
Titus, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
I agree Jim,
That is why I am interested in this learning about this envelope of my airplanes
performance. I now know that on a 2500 foot runway, I should not attempt to
return (factoring in the reaction time if the engine actually did quit unexpectedly).
If I am flying out of a 3500 foot runway, I have a window between 600'
and probably 800' that returning is an excellent option. My next testing is
how high can I get and still land straight ahead on the same runway and getting
a technique down. I believe that if I have this knowledge that before I take
off from any runway, I can make my emergency procedures before take off. For
instance, I can make up the emergency procedures for a 3000 foot runway that
says below 200' land straight ahead, between 600' and 700' return to the runway.
Between 200' and 600' neither of those are an option and find the best landing
spot. I then call out these altitudes (to myself) and if the engine does
quit, I know what to do without wasting precious seconds thinking about it
or making a bad decision and trying to turn back or land straight ahead when it
is not physically possible.
Regards
Jason
[quote="Arksey(at)aol.com"]interesting info jason.....my advice for what it is
worth that with a engine failure on take it is best to go forward rather than
trying to turn back around to the runway. keep us informed on any future tests....jswan
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295759#295759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | 180 turn back to the runway video |
Jason=2C
Very interesting exercise. For you and your plane=2C under these identic
al conditions=2C
you feel that 500' agl is a safe u-turn height to make it back to the field
. That is good.
However=2C I want to point out that these are narrow parameters to duplic
ate. For instance=3B if you add a little headwind (which would then becom
e a tailwind on a 180 deg turn)=2C or if you add a passenger=2C or the dens
ity altitude is different=2C the outcome may be quite different.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade=2C Jason=2C I just want to make sur
e we all remember this particular scenario has limited value.
Being proficient at 180 degree turns (after take-off) is great!!!! But
to be truly proficient=2C you'd need to practice in ALL wind conditions=2C
several weight conditions=2C and various density altitude conditions=2C and
combinations of all of these.
Practicing proficient flying techniques is ALWAYS good advice. Especiall
y those techniques that deal with emergency proceedures!! But=2C unless a
pilot were incredibly confident he could make the field on a u-turn landin
g after an engine failure=2C the best advice is to always land straight ahe
ad.
BTW=2C keep in mind that practicing low level u-turns amount to acrobatic
flying. More than a few pilots have died finding out that what they thoug
ht would work....didn't!!!
Okay everybody=2C now you can beat me up.
Mike Welch
MkIII
> Subject: Kolb-List: 180 turn back to the runway video
> From: jason@trek-tech.com
> Date: Mon=2C 26 Apr 2010 09:26:33 -0700
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Hello All=2C
>
> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to
get back to a runway after take off. On Sunday=2C I got a chance to do som
e testing and I got a video of it. The runway I am flying from is about 250
0 feet long. I found that it required about 500' for me to make the 180 and
get back to the end of the runway. I tried it at 400' but the ending was n
ot pretty (nothing bent). The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not
make the runway because I had traveled further away from the runway than t
he extra 100' in altitude allowed me to make up. My engine has a clutch=2C
so the prop windmills at engine idle just like it would windmill if the eng
ine failed.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
>
> FWIW
> Jason
> MKIII Yamaha powered
> Portland=2C OR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295752#295752
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inb
ox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O
N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Mike,
I am not going to beat you up and I agree that someone should not try to apply
my experience to their plane, they should get out there and practice themselves.
Go to altitude and practice power off 180's. See how much altitude you loose,
find the best glide of your aircraft. Then , if you have a safe place to
practice them at lower altitudes and feel you are proficient enough, go ahead
and try them out.
I agree that the plane will perform differently (and everybody's planes are different)
under different wind conditions and weights, but I do believe this gives
ME a valuable base line from where to take all of the variables into consideration
before I start my take off roll.
This is just like the "practicing dead stick landings" everybody's. Some people
say more planes are bent practicing than in actual situations. In my plane,
I can have the engine at idle and it performs exactly like when the engine is
no longer running.
You stated "unless a pilot were incredibly confident he could make the field on
a u-turn landing after an engine failure, the best advice is to always land straight
ahead" I agree, but how is one suppose to know if he can make the field
on a U turn? Thats just like saying, unless a pilot were incredibly confident
he could shoot an ILS landing the best advice is to always fly clear of clouds.
If this were true, no one would every learn how to fly on instruments.
That is why you practice under a hood with a safety person in the cockpit. I
believe that is what I was doing, practicing this maneuver with my safety person
(fully functional engine) in the cockpit.
As I stated before, for me, it is good to know ahead of time what my emergency
procedure is. If I do my call outs in my head, I will not fool myself into something
that is not possible and try to turn back below 600' no matter how uninviting
the terrain ahead may be, I know and have experienced that I will not
make it back to the runway.
I am not a high time pilot so no one should take this as the voice of experience.
Always fly your airplane in a manner in which you feel safe.
Jason
[quote="mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co"]Jason,
Very interesting exercise. For you and your plane, under these identical conditions,
you feel that 500' aglis a safe u-turn height to make it back to the field. That
is good.
However, I want to point out that these are narrow parameters to duplicate. For
instance; if you add a little headwind (which would then become a tailwind
on a 180 deg turn), or if you add a passenger, or the density altitude is different,
the outcome may be quite different.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, Jason, I just want to make sure we all
remember this particular scenario has limited value.
Being proficient at 180 degree turns (after take-off) is great!!!! But to be
truly proficient, you'd need to practice in ALL wind conditions, several weight
conditions, and various density altitude conditions, and combinations of all
of these.
Practicing proficient flying techniques is ALWAYS good advice. Especially those
techniques that deal with emergency proceedures!! But, unless a pilot were
incredibly confident he could make the field on a u-turn landing after an engine
failure, the best advice is to always land straight ahead.
BTW, keep in mind that practicing low level u-turns amount to acrobatic flying.
More than a few pilots have died finding out that what they thought would work....didn't!!!
Okay everybody, now you can beat me up.
Mike Welch
MkIII
> Subject: 180 turn back to the runway video
> From: jason@trek-tech.com
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:26:33 -0700
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to get
back to a runway after take off. On Sunday, I got a chance to do some testing
and I got a video of it. The runway I am flying from is about 2500 feet long.
I found that it required about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back to the
end of the runway. I tried it at 400' but the ending was not pretty (nothing
bent). The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not make the runway because
I had traveled further away from the runway than the extra 100' in altitude
allowed me to make up. My engine has a clutch, so the prop windmills at engine
idle just like it would windmill if the engine failed.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
>
> FWIW
> Jason
> MKIII Yamaha powered
> Portland, OR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295752#295752
>
>
>
>
> &g========================>
>
>
>
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from
your inbox. Learn more.
> > [b]
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295763#295763
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | 180 turn back to the runway video |
Just a note. Had the 447 ice up on take off from Painton Airport, and the
engine started to droop very badly. Dropped the nose on the FireFly and
kicked it around and back to the runway down wind. I had not prepared my
self for which way to turn, and automatically turned left in the normal
pattern direction. But there was a strong cross wind from the right and it
blew me off into a much larger turn than I would have hoped for.
I made it just fine, but it taught me a lesson, to always think before take
off about which way to turn if the engine quits on the initial climb out.
Jason, I think it is great that you are preparing your self for the
possibility of engine failure after take off. Another exercise that may be
helpful is to practice spilling altitude to land at a spot directly below or
to make high approaches and still touch down at the usual spot. Having
practiced this with the FireFly it really helped me when the MZ34 quit on
its first flight. I was able to zip back to the airport, turn over the end
of the runway at 1,000 agl, and forward slip it down the runway so that
after touch down, I did not have to push the FireFly far to get it off the
other end of the runway. When I initially practiced this, I over shot my
aiming point. I found I could be much more aggressive with the forward
slip, and forward stick and I could hit my aiming point. It looks and feels
a little weird but the FireFly is so draggy the airspeed does not climb too
high, and one can spoil a lot of altitude in a hurry. One nice thing about
this manuver is that when you pop it out of the slip you have plenty of
excess air speed or energy that can be used to make a nice landing.
FWIW
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flying the Kolb Ultrastar |
| From: | Jean PILLAUDIN <jean.pillaudin(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Kolbers,
I read the list here in France with a big interest!
I am very pleased to show you my second fly with my 20 years old Kolb
Ultrastar (Pulsar in France).
It was a great fun. This ultralight is very easy and funny, it give a lot of
pleasure for low cost!!
Here are the pictures :
http://picasaweb.google.com/Jean.PILLAUDIN/2010_04_24?authkey=Gv1sRgCKmypMaFycfksAE&feat=directlink
Bye
--
Jean
Q' importe le frelon pourvu qu'on ai l'ivresse!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flying the Kolb Ultrastar |
| From: | "Kip" <klaurie(at)mindspring.com> |
Cool..... :D
--------
2000 Firestar II
R503 DCDI
VLS 750
2010 Waiex
Jabiru 3300
1980 Quickie 1
Electric?
Needs restoration!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295798#295798
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ kinne <russkinne(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
OK, now you can beat me up too.
Esp since I'm a non-Kolb pilot.
But all this recent talk about minimum altitude to make a 180 back to
the runway after an engine failure on takeoff -- the early posts, at
least, and the video, indicate that the trials were done right off
the runway, at an altitude of 500' AGL or so.
IMHO, THIS IS ASSININE!
For the luvva Pete, and your loved ones, do these trials AT ALTITUDE!
The graveyard's full of people who didn't.
So beat me up if you want to. I only hope this will save a life &
avoid a crash or two.
Russ K
On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Jason,
>
> Very interesting exercise. For you and your plane, under these
> identical conditions,
> you feel that 500' agl is a safe u-turn height to make it back to
> the field. That is good.
>
> However, I want to point out that these are narrow parameters to
> duplicate. For instance; if you add a little headwind (which
> would then become a tailwind on a 180 deg turn), or if you add a
> passenger, or the density altitude is different, the outcome may be
> quite different.
>
> I'm not trying to rain on your parade, Jason, I just want to make
> sure we all remember this particular scenario has limited value.
> Being proficient at 180 degree turns (after take-off) is
> great!!!! But to be truly proficient, you'd need to practice in
> ALL wind conditions, several weight conditions, and various density
> altitude conditions, and combinations of all of these.
>
> Practicing proficient flying techniques is ALWAYS good advice.
> Especially those techniques that deal with emergency
> proceedures!! But, unless a pilot were incredibly confident he
> could make the field on a u-turn landing after an engine failure,
> the best advice is to always land straight ahead.
>
> BTW, keep in mind that practicing low level u-turns amount to
> acrobatic flying. More than a few pilots have died finding out
> that what they thought would work....didn't!!!
>
> Okay everybody, now you can beat me up.
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com> |
Jason Omelchuck wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to get
back to a runway after take off. On Sunday, I got a chance to do some testing
and I got a video of it. The runway I am flying from is about 2500 feet long.
I found that it required about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back to
the end of the runway. I tried it at 400' but the ending was not pretty (nothing
bent). The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not make the runway
because I had traveled further away from the runway than the extra 100' in altitude
allowed me to make up. My engine has a clutch, so the prop windmills at
engine idle just like it would windmill if the engine failed.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
>
> FWIW
> Jason
> MKIII Yamaha powered
> Portland, OR
Wish I had that many open fields to choose from for emergency landing spots.
Please be careful. Do you know your stall speed on a steep turn?
--------
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar
Rotax 503 DCSI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295812#295812
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Esp since I'm a non-Kolb pilot.
But all this recent talk about minimum altitude to make a 180 back to
the runway after an engine failure on takeoff -- the early posts, at
least, and the video, indicate that the trials were done right off
the runway, at an altitude of 500' AGL or so.
IMHO, THIS IS ASSININE!
For the luvva Pete, and your loved ones, do these trials AT ALTITUDE!
The graveyard's full of people who didn't.
So beat me up if you want to. I only hope this will save a life &
avoid a crash or two.
Russ K
***************************
Russ/Gang:
Would be a good idea to get some flight experience in a Kolb.
What Jason was doing was normal Kolb flying in my book.
I believe he has learned a great deal more about his airplane.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Not sure why you want to get beat up, but if it make you feel better
have your wife do it for us. In actuality the way that he did it was the
safest way to have done it at all. If you recall, he has a clutch, so
whether the engine is running or not, and his was, his prop is going to
spin and slow him down a lot. All he had to do was to apply throttle and
he is running again, so the danger that he put himself into was no worse
than any power off landing, whether it be straight in or not.
Now I don't have a clutch, but you can be sure that if you are not going
to make the runway, you are going to know it a long time before it gets
critical. If you have to pull start the engine, then you are engaging in
risky behavior, with a starter it is doable without too much risk.
Now the following may be only applicable to myself, if you do not react
this way, then by all means feel free to disregard the following. I have
had at least two situations that could be qualified as an emergency. The
first one was an engine malfunction wherein a spark plug cap disengaged
from the spark plug. I had noise, but no real power. I reverted to the
type of landing that I would normally make. Muscle memory if you will. I
picked a spot to land that was the best choice open to me, throttled
back and set it down. There was a large rock that I could not see, ended
up on my back with gas dripping by my ear. Besides the damage to the
landing gear, and a crushed nose cone, I had a prop strike when I
flipped, and a bit more damage than necessary. What would have been
better would have been to shut off the engine, master switch, and made
my approach as slow as I could, even to pancake it in if necessary. I
had never faced the possibility of an off field landing, so I reverted
to what I did each time I landed. No emergency practice or even thought
of what I would do in an emergency, nothing.
Now after that and early last year there was the original discussion
about how much altitude one needed to make a unpowered turn. I went out,
( I did use more altitude however) and found that I could make a full
turn within 200 feet. One of my misadventures with a HAC-man wherein I
neglected to turn it off as I was coming in for a landing. ( I ascribe
no blame to the HAC-man system. It operated as it was designed to do.
The fault was entirely mine.) I was on final approach to my cross wind
runway, which is a bit uphill. I was probably under 300 feet, the engine
quit. Straight ahead there was nothing but sage about two feet high.
Behind me was a clear patch of dirt that was as smooth as one could ask
for. It was also on down sloping ground. I knew I had altitude enough to
turn, the question was whether I had enough altitude to make the
clearing. Well I did, skimming the last piece of sage between me and the
clearing. I shut off the HAC-man, started the engine and went home to an
ass chewing by the little lady.
Now I will not deny that there was a large measure of luck, but I knew
how much it would take to turn, I knew what my best glide was, and I
pulled it off with no repair, other than my britches. Had I gone
straight ahead, I would have been replacing the nose cone, and probably
recovering.
My point is if you do not know how the plane will react, you will have
no other choice than muscle memory. Yes straight ahead is probably
safest if you don't know, but its most likely gonna hurt. Any exercise
that you are going to attempt should be carried out with as much safety
cushion as you can get, but knowing what to expect from your plane and
preparing yourself for it is priceless.
Now I thought that this should be classified as gentle, but I think he
did as he should have done. An emergency is no place for guesswork.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: russ kinne
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 180 turn back to the runway video
OK, now you can beat me up too.
Esp since I'm a non-Kolb pilot.
But all this recent talk about minimum altitude to make a 180 back to
the runway after an engine failure on takeoff -- the early posts, at
least, and the video, indicate that the trials were done right off
the runway, at an altitude of 500' AGL or so.
IMHO, THIS IS ASSININE!
For the luvva Pete, and your loved ones, do these trials AT ALTITUDE!
The graveyard's full of people who didn't.
So beat me up if you want to. I only hope this will save a life &
avoid a crash or two.
Russ K
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
good thinking Jason.....let us know your final results i am sure we will
find them interesting and helpful.....jswan fly safe .....
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Crystal,
In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will stall
at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off. The risk is keeping
the turn coordinated so that remains true for both wings. The tendency is to
try to put in too much rudder to tighten the turn and you then run the risk of
the inside wing stalling. when I first started practicing at altitude, I noticed
I could feel the wing start to bobble at stall and that it would increase
the bank and start the beginning of a spiral. It was a little unnerving at first,
but I noticed I could keep it from developing by a little opposite rudder
and of course getting the nose down ever so slightly to keep the airspeed up.
I did practice (at altitude) going from a full throttle climb to a descending
180 turn while trying to keep a constant airspeed. One of the things I think
I have learned while doing this close to the ground is that the fear of hitting
the ground is a very ingrained in my brain. It is an un-natural act to put
the nose down to save yourself from hitting the ground. I believe this has
caused many an airplane accident because it is just does not make sense, your
instinct really wants to pull back on the stick to extend the glide just that
little bit more. This sensation does not get triggered when flying at altitude.
I believe this is the reason that many a Kolb landing gear has been bent by
people who are used to flying GA aircraft. To the pilot of a faster airplane,
the angle of approach that must be kept close to the ground before round out
is alarming until you do it many times.
My $.02 worth
Jason
cristalclear13 wrote:
>
> Jason Omelchuck wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to get
back to a runway after take off. On Sunday, I got a chance to do some testing
and I got a video of it. The runway I am flying from is about 2500 feet long.
I found that it required about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back
to the end of the runway. I tried it at 400' but the ending was not pretty (nothing
bent). The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not make the runway
because I had traveled further away from the runway than the extra 100' in
altitude allowed me to make up. My engine has a clutch, so the prop windmills
at engine idle just like it would windmill if the engine failed.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
> >
> > FWIW
> > Jason
> > MKIII Yamaha powered
> > Portland, OR
>
>
> Wish I had that many open fields to choose from for emergency landing spots.
> Please be careful. Do you know your stall speed on a steep turn?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295828#295828
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will
stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off. >>
Sorry but that is not true.
Two things happen when you turn.
1. Your apparent weight will increase because of the `G` force engendered by
turning.
2. Your generated lift will diminish because lift is always generated at
right angles to the wing and if you turn part of the lift will be used to
turn you.. The steeper your turn the worse both of these effects become.
You MUST increase your speed to compensate.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Jason Omelchuck wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to
> get back to a runway after take off.>>
Neatly done and a good video.. The cut back of the engine and the lowering
of the nose were simultaneous. In a real emergency you will lose a couple
of seconds at least wondering `What the *******has happened`. Also there
was no or very little wind. A few knots on your nose turning rapidly to a
few knots up your tailfeathers will reduce your flying speed and INCREASE
you ground speed and the length of your landing run considerably.
You took off from pretty well down the runway and consequently had a good
length of runway behind you to land on. My Xtra would have been at 500 feet
while you were still on the ground and in the event of a 180 degree turn
back there would have been considerably less useable runway.
I dont know how much difference there is in the glide produced by a stopped
prop as opposed to a windmilling one., perhaps someone has the figures.
Thanks for doing the experiment. I shall make sure I do not turn back at
500ft or less.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Two things happen when you turn.
1. Your apparent weight will increase because of the `G` force engendered by
turning.
2. Your generated lift will diminish because lift is always generated at
right angles to the wing and if you turn part of the lift will be used to
turn you.. The steeper your turn the worse both of these effects become.
You MUST increase your speed to compensate.
Cheers
Pat
Patrick L/Gang:
I think we did this argument some time ago. And....I think Tom Kuffle
presented a good explanation of this, but I am probably wrong.
Don't we have to take into consideration this is a descending turn?
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Pat,
I believe this is true. A descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed is
a 1G maneuver. If you bank steeper you descend faster and you are still at 1G.
Jason
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
> In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will
> stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off. >>
>
> Sorry but that is not true.
>
> Two things happen when you turn.
>
> 1. Your apparent weight will increase because of the `G` force engendered by
> turning.
>
> 2. Your generated lift will diminish because lift is always generated at
> right angles to the wing and if you turn part of the lift will be used to
> turn you.. The steeper your turn the worse both of these effects become.
> You MUST increase your speed to compensate.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295856#295856
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Jason,
Took some data from your video. I recorded the time of lift off, point of
throttle pull back, approximated after completion of 180 turn, and touch
down.
You were getting to 500 feet in about 30 seconds for a climb rate of 1,000
ft/min. Your 180 degree turn took about 17.5 seconds for a good turn rate
of 620 deg/min. Glide time was about 32.5 seconds for an average decent
rate of 923 ft/min. The latter is very good considering the wind milling
propeller. In your case there has to be an optimum ias that gives you the
best glide for a wind milling propeller. You may want to consider VG's to
increase lift to help off set the wind milling propeller drag. Also, I have
found they will greatly reduce twitchyness felt during steep turns with the
FireFly.
Keep up the good work.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
I think we did this argument some time ago. And....I think Tom Kuffle
presented a good explanation of this, but I am probably wrong.
Don't we have to take into consideration this is a descending turn?
john hauck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
John and the gang
Back in my training for private ticket,, when doing a power off left turn
from base to final, especially if there was a bit of a left cross wind on
final , I would bank the plane a bit more than usual to stop the drifting
from the cross wind in order to line up with the runway. That precipitated
a long lesson on accelerated stalls, with special emphasis on base to final
turns. Long story short I think Pat was right.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
You may want to consider VG's to
increase lift to help off set the wind milling propeller drag. Also, I have
found they will greatly reduce twitchyness felt during steep turns with the
FireFly.
Keep up the good work.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
*****************
Jack H/Gang:
Do VGs increase lift? The reason I ask is I do not know.
I thought VGs decreased stall speed.
Also, could you explain "twitchyness" during steep turns with the Firefly?
Thanks,
john hauck - Twitchy after operating the "bush hog on a pole" (weed eater)
all morning.
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
I found in my experiments with this situation that a slow flat turn was
better than a steep quick turn. Keeping that in mind if there is any
increase in G forces it was negligent, therefore the stall would not
increase. Of course I had VG's :-)
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
Two things happen when you turn.
1. Your apparent weight will increase because of the `G` force
engendered by
turning.
2. Your generated lift will diminish because lift is always generated
at
right angles to the wing and if you turn part of the lift will be
used to
turn you.. The steeper your turn the worse both of these effects
become.
You MUST increase your speed to compensate.
Cheers
Pat
Patrick L/Gang:
I think we did this argument some time ago. And....I think Tom Kuffle
presented a good explanation of this, but I am probably wrong.
Don't we have to take into consideration this is a descending turn?
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | 180 turn back to the runway video |
his prop is going to spin and slow him down a lot. All he had to do was to
apply throttle and he is running again, so the danger that he put himself
into was no worse than any power off landing, whether it be straight in or
not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Have you ever heard of an accelerated stall. It usually happens when
yanking and banking. Maybe I am out of place because I have not seen the
video. But I have not seen these thoughts expressed in this thread. If the
turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,, you may be ok.
if the turn is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above. You best know
what the stall looks and feels like, and at what speed, in that
configuration. In these conditions the stall can occur well above the
straight and level stall speed. And a stall at a high bank angle at 500 ft
and under can cause a sudden end to a very good day. Even if your engine
is running.
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Pat,
The wind would have to be blowing on the order of 10 to 15 knots (an estimate)
down the runway to be in danger of running out of runway on the landing roll.
I recommend you not taking this information and applying it to your airplane.
From your description of the way you plane can take off, it obviously has much
different flight characteristics than mine. I would highly recommend you go
to altitude and practice full power climb to descending 180. If you get comfortable
doing them at altitude, you may want to work up to finding a nice safe
place and doing some testing yourself. Just hearing about someone else doing
it will not replace training or practice.
Best Wishes
Jason
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
> Jason Omelchuck wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to
> > get back to a runway after take off.>>
> >
> >
>
> Neatly done and a good video.. The cut back of the engine and the lowering
> of the nose were simultaneous. In a real emergency you will lose a couple
> of seconds at least wondering `What the *******has happened`. Also there
> was no or very little wind. A few knots on your nose turning rapidly to a
> few knots up your tailfeathers will reduce your flying speed and INCREASE
> you ground speed and the length of your landing run considerably.
>
> You took off from pretty well down the runway and consequently had a good
> length of runway behind you to land on. My Xtra would have been at 500 feet
> while you were still on the ground and in the event of a 180 degree turn
> back there would have been considerably less useable runway.
>
> I dont know how much difference there is in the glide produced by a stopped
> prop as opposed to a windmilling one., perhaps someone has the figures.
>
> Thanks for doing the experiment. I shall make sure I do not turn back at
> 500ft or less.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295873#295873
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Boyd,
Again, a descending (power off) turn at constant air speed is a 1G maneuver.
Jason
[quote="by0ung(at)brigham.net"]his prop is going to spin and slow him down a lot.
All he had to do was to apply throttle and he is running again, so the danger
that he put himself into was no worse than any power off landing, whether it
be straight in or not.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
>
Have you ever heard of an accelerated stall. It usually happens when yanking
and banking. Maybe I am out of place because I have not seen the video.
But I have not seen these thoughts expressed in this thread. If the turns are
less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,, you may be ok if the turn
is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above. You best know what the stall
looks and feels like, and at what speed, in that configuration. In these
conditions the stall can occur well above the straight and level stall speed.
And a stall at a high bank angle at 500 ft and under can cause a sudden end
to a very good day. Even if your engine is running.
Boyd Young
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295874#295874
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
At 11:00 PM 4/26/2010, Jason Omelchuck wrote:
>In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will
>stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off...
Jason,
This is simply not correct. I suggest you review "accelerated stalls". In
a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the bank
angle. The effect is small for shallow turns, but, for example, in a 60=B0
banked turn when you're pulling 2g, the stall speed is 41% higher.
Trying to turn too tight at low altitude, whether it's a flat skidding turn
leading to the inside wing stalling, or an accelerated stall, is what does
in a lot of pilots.
-Dana
--
Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any
Indian.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mark.shimei" <mark.shimei(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flying the Kolb Ultrastar |
Another ultrastar!!! I dont feel so alone now.......even though he is on
the
other side of the planet...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Dana,
If you are not descending and under power you are correct. If you are power off
and loosing airspeed, you are correct. If you are power off and descending
at a constant airspeed, it is a 1G maneuver.
Regards
Jason
[quote="Dana"]At 11:00 PM 4/26/2010, Jason Omelchuck wrote:
> In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will stall
at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off...
Jason,
This is simply not correct. I suggest you review "accelerated stalls". In a
coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the bank angle.
The effect is small for shallow turns, but, for example, in a 60 banked turn when
you're pulling 2g, the stall speed is 41% higher.
Trying to turn too tight at low altitude, whether it's a flat skidding turn leading
to the inside wing stalling, or an accelerated stall, is what does in a
lot of pilots.
-Dana
--
Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295881#295881
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Kolb pilots,
Another thing that I always try to make a habit when I take off is
whenever I reach the point where an abort straight ahead back to the
remaining runway becomes doubtful or unlikely is to drift off to the
downwind side of the runway from whatever crosswind there may be, so
that a turn back to the runway is into the wind and also requires less
degree of turn to reach the runway again.
I like to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible when I am
taking off.
Also being aggressive in air speed and bank angle in a turn back
reduces the time required to make a 180 and shortens the distance back
to the threshold.
IOW Control the airplane, don't let the airplane control YOU. YOU put
the airplane down, don't let the airplane put YOU down.
Gene
On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:00 PM, Jason Omelchuck wrote:
> >
>
> Hello Crystal,
>
> In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane
> will stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off.
> The risk is keeping the turn coordinated so that remains true for
> both wings. The tendency is to try to put in too much rudder to
> tighten the turn and you then run the risk of the inside wing
> stalling. when I first started practicing at altitude, I noticed I
> could feel the wing start to bobble at stall and that it would
> increase the bank and start the beginning of a spiral. It was a
> little unnerving at first, but I noticed I could keep it from
> developing by a little opposite rudder and of course getting the
> nose down ever so slightly to keep the airspeed up. I did practice
> (at altitude) going from a full throttle climb to a descending 180
> turn while trying to keep a constant airspeed. One of the things I
> think I have learned while doing this close to the ground is that
> the fear of hitting the ground is a very ingrained in my brain. It !
> is an un-natural act to put the nose down to save yourself from
> hitting the ground. I believe this has caused many an airplane
> accident because it is just does not make sense, your instinct
> really wants to pull back on the stick to extend the glide just that
> little bit more. This sensation does not get triggered when flying
> at altitude. I believe this is the reason that many a Kolb landing
> gear has been bent by people who are used to flying GA aircraft. To
> the pilot of a faster airplane, the angle of approach that must be
> kept close to the ground before round out is alarming until you do
> it many times.
>
> My $.02 worth
> Jason
>
>
> cristalclear13 wrote:
>>
>> Jason Omelchuck wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height
>>> required to get back to a runway after take off. On Sunday, I got
>>> a chance to do some testing and I got a video of it. The runway I
>>> am flying from is about 2500 feet long. I found that it required
>>> about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back to the end of the
>>> runway. I tried it at 400' but the ending was not pretty (nothing
>>> bent). The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not make the
>>> runway because I had traveled further away from the runway than
>>> the extra 100' in altitude allowed me to make up. My engine has a
>>> clutch, so the prop windmills at engine idle just like it would
>>> windmill if the engine failed.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk
>>>
>>> FWIW
>>> Jason
>>> MKIII Yamaha powered
>>> Portland, OR
>>
>>
>> Wish I had that many open fields to choose from for emergency
>> landing spots.
>> Please be careful. Do you know your stall speed on a steep turn?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295828#295828
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Every thing and every plane is different, and I intend to pursue my
findings further, but the turns that I did last spring in testing this
theory proved to me that I lost much more altitude in a steep turn than
what I did in a slow flat turn. Of course I have VG's and that made my
findings different from most of you. I tried it both ways and I found
that clam, slow and easy worked the best for me. Your experience may
be different!
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eugene Zimmerman
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
Kolb pilots,
Also being aggressive in air speed and bank angle in a turn back
reduces the time required to make a 180 and shortens the distance back
to the threshold.
IOW Control the airplane, don't let the airplane control YOU. YOU put
the airplane down, don't let the airplane put YOU down.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mrs. Michelle Cole" <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
In my early days, I use to practice this 180 turn back to the runway. First few
in a Cessna 150 I lost about 600 ft. Then, using a more aggressive dive, turn
and bank, I got the Cessna around with only 150 foot loss of altitude. About
10% of the time, I could get it down to 100 footloss. Later, in my PA-11 Cub,
I could consistently get it back to the runway with a 50 foot loss of altitude.
It just takes practice with a sound technique. Vic
---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:05:57 +0100
>From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (on behalf of "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>)
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
>To:
>
>
>Jason Omelchuck wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to
>> get back to a runway after take off.>>
>
>Neatly done and a good video.. The cut back of the engine and the lowering
>of the nose were simultaneous. In a real emergency you will lose a couple
>of seconds at least wondering `What the *******has happened`. Also there
>was no or very little wind. A few knots on your nose turning rapidly to a
>few knots up your tailfeathers will reduce your flying speed and INCREASE
>you ground speed and the length of your landing run considerably.
>
>You took off from pretty well down the runway and consequently had a good
>length of runway behind you to land on. My Xtra would have been at 500 feet
>while you were still on the ground and in the event of a 180 degree turn
>back there would have been considerably less useable runway.
>
>I dont know how much difference there is in the glide produced by a stopped
>prop as opposed to a windmilling one., perhaps someone has the figures.
>
>Thanks for doing the experiment. I shall make sure I do not turn back at
>500ft or less.
>
>Cheers
>
>Pat
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello All,
Here is where this very topic was discussed in detail on this list before. FWIW.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descending+turn+stall
Jason
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295922#295922
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
>
>Jack H/Gang:
>
>Do VGs increase lift? The reason I ask is I do not know.
>
>I thought VGs decreased stall speed.
>
>Also, could you explain "twitchyness" during steep turns with the Firefly?
>
>Thanks,
>
John,
You are correct in that VG's reduce stall speed. Therefore it stands to
reason that if one flys at the previous stall speed or faster, the VG's will
generate more lift than the wing did before the addition of VG's. Also when
in level flight the AOA will be less and the drag associated with that IAS
will be less too.
When I installed the VG's, the 447 was mounted on the FireFly and after I
had changed from 15 inch chord ailerons to 9 inch chord ailerons. The
description of what happened when I installed them can be found at:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly18.html
What I mean by twitchy is the feeling one gets through the lower cheeks that
things are not going well or as one expects. I had the feeling that if I
pushed the FireFly on a downwind to base bank that it felt like it wanted keep
right on going over onto its back. As a result I never made very steep left
banks. I had no problem with banks to the right. After I mounted the VG's
this sensation disappeared, and flying enjoyment increased.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
I usually read the responses to a post before I offer my 2 cents. BUT, unless
you a re a really low time Kolb pilot
you should eventually pick up on how your wing is feeling. Smooth, low pull turns
like we saw in that excellent video
would not cause a problem. -that is as long as the driver has a good feel for
load inducement and keeps his buttocks
free from excessive compression. Lowering the nose will do just fine.
Once again, you cannot stall an airplane at zero Gs.
BB
On 27, Apr 2010, at 1:15 PM, Jason Omelchuck wrote:
>
> Hello Boyd,
>
> Again, a descending (power off) turn at constant air speed is a 1G maneuver.
>
> Jason
>
> [quote="by0ung(at)brigham.net"]his prop is going to spin and slow him down a
lot. All he had to do was to apply throttle and he is running again, so the danger
that he put himself into was no worse than any power off landing, whether
it be straight in or not.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>
>>
>
> Have you ever heard of an accelerated stall. It usually happens when yanking
and banking. Maybe I am out of place because I have not seen the video.
But I have not seen these thoughts expressed in this thread. If the turns
are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,, you may be ok if the
turn is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above. You best know what the
stall looks and feels like, and at what speed, in that configuration. In these
conditions the stall can occur well above the straight and level stall speed.
And a stall at a high bank angle at 500 ft and under can cause a sudden
end to a very good day. Even if your engine is running.
>
> Boyd Young
>
>> [b]
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295874#295874
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
At 01:25 PM 4/27/2010, Jason Omelchuck wrote:
>If you are not descending and under power you are correct. If you are
>power off and loosing airspeed, you are correct. If you are power off and
>descending at a constant airspeed, it is a 1G maneuver.
People argued with me in the previous thread you referenced, but I stand by
what I said: It is impossible to maintain a turn at constant airspeed
without exceeding 1G, unless your rate of descent constantly increases at
an acceleration rate corresponding to the loss of lift due to the bank.
Take a 45 degree bank, for example. In a normal, coordinated, level turn,
you pull 1.41G. If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank and hold
1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus you'll have a
downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s. This means
that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased by 566
fpm. After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a pretty
steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it.
-Dana.
--
Wernher von Braun settled for a V-2 instead of a V-8.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
The most ignored indicator that indicates stall independent of the ASI and
angle of bank is the AOA meter. Few have them mounted in their
aircraft.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Jason,
That was a great video you did on returning to the runway in the event of an engine
failure. The lesson to learn here is not to take a piece of advice like
" Never try to return to the runway if your engine quits " and apply it to every
situation. Many times Kolb pilots are flying from 5000 foot general aviation
runways that you would be close to 1000 feet at the end. If you had houses,
or trees in front, 1000 feet of altitude, and 5000 feet of general aviation
runway just behind you when the engine quit, only a fool would take the common
advice and land into a house or a tree in this situation. As the runway gets
shorter, it becomes more dangerous to turn back, and one should look for the
best place ahead or even 90 degrees left or right. On a super short runway, the
only option will be straight ahead. A good pilot should know about what runway
length and altitude will allow a return to the runway if the engine quits
in his airplane.
Its needless to say brand new Kolb pilots should not practice this until they know
their airplanes well and can do a banked power off turn without stalling.
Again, its just a matter of being smart. For most of us, practice like this
will make us safer in case of an engine failure. There are always a few new
or poorly skilled pilots that are safer never testing the limits of their planes.
Trying to apply one rule to everyone, or one rule for every situation just
shows a poor understanding of aviation.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295942#295942
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BNC bulkhead connector |
| From: | "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com> |
"Show this to your local Radio Shack sales clerk. "
Your link is pretty much what the local Shack clerk showed me... Lots of BNC stuff,
but no bulkhead fitting like Jimmy is looking for. It's not in their system
at all. The Shack ain't what it used to be.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295978#295978
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
a flat skidding turn leading to the inside wing stalling,>>
Hi Dana,
reminds me of an incident I saw just around the end of the war.
An Albemarle, which was a twin engined light/medium bomber reduced to
glider tugging was struggling into the sky from my local field pulling
a Waco glider. The glider got out of position and pulled the tail of
the Albemarle to starboard. The Albemarles port wing stalled and she
dropped into a straight down nosedive with both engines flat out.
Unfortunately there was not enough height and she hit the ground about
10 degrees from vertical. The pilot had obviously realised what was
happening and dumped the tow line as his plane dropped out of control
thus certainly saving the glider pilot from filling his pants or as a
worst case causing the glider to crash with its full complement of
squaddies aboard.
Sports gliders with their long wing span are prone to this on final turn
when they are close to the ground and skid into a flat turn instead of
banking properly.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
The wind would have to be blowing on the order of 10 to 15 knots (an
estimate) down the runway to be in danger of running out of runway on the
landing roll.>>
Hi Jason,
working the accurate math for that is beyond me but a 10knot windspeed and
say 35knot airspeed at take off is going to produce a ground speed on
takeoff of 25knots. Landing downwind is going to require at least 45 knots
ground speed and to keep proper control, a bit more. That will certainly
take a lot more runway than you expect.
I will tell you how I know. I flew to a fly in last weekend. Viz was not
great and I was non radio. The wind was light and I couldn`t see the
windsock. I saw another a/c in the circuit and decided to follow him around
the circuit. As I turned I lost him in the haze and the next time I saw him
he was on the ground having (I assumed), just landed. I tracked round to
follow and landed in the same direction. I realised that something was not
quite right when the hedge wizzed under me a bit faster than I expected.
Then the plane plonked herself down a bit more solidly than usual and I
found myself charging down the grass and applying brakes hard. I taxied to
the clubhouse where I was given a (richly deserved) b*******ing from the
CFI.
What I had seen was not the other plane landing, but BACKTRACKING after he
had landed. A stupid error whch to salve my pride I shall put down as being
due to the first away flight of the season and not being really switched on
yet.
Take it from me. Down wind landings take MUCH more runway than you expect.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
If you bank steeper you descend faster and you are still at 1G.>>
Hi Jason,
If that were the case then any bank angle would not increase the `G`.
Ascending, descending, power on or off. None of these is germane to the
case.
Cheers
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
On Apr 28, 2010, at 6:40 AM, pj.ladd wrote:
> Take it from me. Down wind landings take MUCH more runway than you
> expect.
Ok,
You perhaps. What do you expect?
Unrealistic expectations inevitably make pilots unsafe.
Gene,
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BNC bulkhead connector |
| From: | "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com> |
Mike,
I posted before checking your second link. Mouser has many options for BNC bulkhead
fittings. I can't speak for Jimmy, but they have what I have been looking
for.
Thanks for the tip,
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296001#296001
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0(at)gmail.com> |
Hi, Gang,
Just for fun, and since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, when safely practicing
at altitude, perform a 270 degree turn to establish your altitude loss.
Unless we take off sideways across a football field, it takes a 45 to return to
the runway, and another 45 to line up for landing. All that is after the initial
180.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296002#296002
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
Here is a very good video about the "Impossible Turn" as performed by two guys
in a C172.
http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296028#296028
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Boyd,
Again, a descending (power off) turn at constant air speed is a 1G maneuver.
Jason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jason
Just visited a cfi, and I asked the question "could you remain in 1 g
during a descending turn at a constant air speed" his reply was "you could
for a short while, but it would be the start of a death spiral."
Straight flight at a constant speed and power setting, is considered 1g.
If 1 g is lifting the aircraft and you put it into a turn, You will
require additional energy to cause the plane to change direction, I.e.
TURN 180 Energy is needed to stop the plane from traveling in one
direction, and accelerate it into another direction. Thus more energy/lift
is required from the wings, to make the direction change and also lift the
aircraft. I guess it could be argued that there is still only 1g apposing
gravity, but additional lift is required to cause the change of direction.
Thus 1 PLUS g maneuver, the greater the bank angle the greater the PLUS.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> |
Any turn of an airplane will require acceleration to change its direction, you
can not turn the direction of any moving object without putting force on it, its
a law of physics that can not be broken. What can be done is that the turning
forces can be temporarily kept near one G by initiating a descent, and using
more of the lift component for the turn, and less for lifting against gravity,
TEMPORARILY. But any descent incurred by this will have to be arrested sooner
or later by additional lift from the wings, additional G loading somewhere
before hitting the ground. You can not change the laws of physics by being
a good pilot.
What a good pilot can do is manage these forces so gradually, and smoothly that
any increase in G loading is minimal and not noticed by the humans inside the
plane. This is very good and important technique, as the return to airport would
be done at minimal airspeed with no power... Horsing the plane around and
being abrupt with the controls and the resulting G forces could cause an accelerated
stall and be disastrous in this situation. So while you can not change
the laws of physics, you can manage them so smoothly as to give yourself every
chance of completing this maneuver without stalling.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296079#296079
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
Sent this two hours ago. So far it hasn't appeared on the list. My
paranoid side says there must be censorship of my ideas somewhere.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sigh. My conscience won't let me ignore this.
pj, boyd, Dana:
Dang it, ignore what I say, fly the maneuver and see for yourself. Go
to
altitude, reduce power if you wish, enter a 30 degree bank and hold
absolutely constant airspeed for 180 degrees and then roll level.
Repeat at
5 miles/knots slower. Repeat again until you are as close to Vso as
your
ability to hold a constant airspeed allows. You will not stall.
For more details as to why this is true review my messages in the thread
linked by Jason:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descendin
g+turn+stall
Now:
<< If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,,
you
may be ok. if the turn is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above
>>
<< In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the
bank angle >>
These out of context statements are exactly the misconception which
kills
pilots every year. I know, it almost killed me during my primary
training.
I know, base to final turn accidents are a major source of aircraft
fatalities every year. They are true *if you maintain (approximately) a
constant vertical component for your lift vector.* The only way to do
this
is to increase your total lift, in other words maintain constant
altitude,
in other words increase your load factor.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Look at the AIM diagram we have all had drummed into our subconscious.
As
the angle of bank increases, the total lift increases to keep the
vertical
component the same. Now with your hands block out all but the first
airplane. Rotate the entire manual. This is the case of a constant
airspeed in a turn. Some of the lift is now used to make the turn and
less
lift is available to oppose gravity and you will *start* to descend
faster.
But since the total lift is unchanged so is the stall speed. In other
words, stall speed increases with load factor, not angle of bank.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
<< Take a 45 degree bank, for example. In a normal, coordinated, level
turn, you pull 1.41G. If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank
and
hold 1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus you'll
have a downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s. This
means that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased by
566
fpm. After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a
pretty
steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it. >>
The math here is wrong. After one second you are descending at 9
feet/sec,
2 seconds you are now at 19 ft/sec, 3 seconds = 28 ft/sec, 4 sec =
38 ft/sec
or so. In addition it ignores the vertical component of drag which is
significant.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
The above statements as well as the "death spiral" of Boyd's CFI are the
result of misunderstanding the context of what I and others are trying
to
fix. The problem is the turn from base to final. Most pilots initiate
a
bank of about 30 degrees. Half way through the turn they see they are
overshooting the runway. What they should do is increase their angle of
bank to 45 degrees or even briefly 60 degrees at constant airspeed to
finish
the turn. Instead, because "increased angle of bank means increased
stall
speed" (in a different context) has been fixated in their minds they try
to
fudge the situation with rudder and/or tightening up (pulling on the
stick)
instead. This brings them to experience the other four fundamentals of
flight: stall, spin, crash and burn. What we must fixate instead is
"constant airspeed = constant load factor = constant stall speed".
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Now just because I have an evil nature let me mention one more context
besides turns at low altitude for landing. This should start another
thread
in the Seafoam mode. The concept of constant airspeed control is also
paramount in mountain search and rescue reversing turns and box canyon
escapes. What I teach is no change in power, smoothly increase your
climb
rate and bank until you reach your desired bank and airspeed, say Vs1 +
10.
Maintain this bank and airspeed until you have reversed direction. You
will
now be in a decent but at a higher altitude, smoothly pullout and you
are
now going in the opposite direction at roughly your starting altitude
and
airspeed. This method allows the pilot to concentrate on airspeed
control
and situational awareness without the distraction of power control. The
reduced airspeed during the turn also creates a very small radius of
turn.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Let me finish with an irrelevant appeal to authority. Every, and I mean
every, CFI with whom I've had the above discussion and then taken flying
has
adopted my emphasis on constant airspeed control for maneuvering close
to
the ground.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Good luck and have fun,
Tom Kuffel, CFI
EAA Flight Advisor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
At 04:39 PM 4/28/2010, The Kuffels wrote:
>For more details as to why this is true review my messages in the thread
>linked by Jason:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descending+turn+stall
I did. I stand by what I said there, as well as in this thread.
><< In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the
>bank angle >>
Correct.
>true *if you maintain (approximately) a
>constant vertical component for your lift vector.* The only way to do this
>is to increase your total lift, in other words maintain constant altitude,
>in other words increase your load factor.
Correct. Note that if you don't maintain "a constant vertical vertical
component for your lift vector", you will accelerate downward (or upward,
as the case may be, though that's not what we're talking about).
>...This is the case of a constant
>airspeed in a turn. Some of the lift is now used to make the turn and less
>lift is available to oppose gravity and you will *start* to descend faster.
>But since the total lift is unchanged so is the stall speed. In other
>words, stall speed increases with load factor, not angle of bank.
Correct. "You will *start* to descend faster." And if you maintain 1G in
a banked turn, you will *continue* to accelerate downward.
><< Take a 45 degree bank, for example. In a normal, coordinated, level
>turn, you pull 1.41G. If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank and
>hold 1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus you'll
>have a downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s. This
>means that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased by 566
>fpm. After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a pretty
>steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it. >>
>
>The math here is wrong. After one second you are descending at 9 feet/sec,
>2 seconds you are now at 19 ft/sec, 3 seconds = 28 ft/sec, 4 sec = 38 ft/sec
>or so. In addition it ignores the vertical component of drag which is
>significant.
What math do you say is wrong? Sounds like you're agreeing with me, as I
said after one second you're descending at 9.4 ft/s, etc. You rounded the
numbers off but they're approximately the same as mine (after four seconds,
38 ft/s is 2280 fpm).
The vertical component of drag is zero at the start, and then yes, it
becomes significant. However, it doesn't affect the math, because
regardless of the drag, you _have_ to accelerate downward as described
above or you won't maintain 1G.
>...Half way through the turn they see they are
>overshooting the runway. What they should do is increase their angle of
>bank to 45 degrees or even briefly 60 degrees at constant airspeed to finish
>the turn. Instead, because "increased angle of bank means increased stall
>speed" (in a different context) has been fixated in their minds they try to
>fudge the situation with rudder and/or tightening up (pulling on the stick)
>instead...
Both are the wrong thing to do. Increase the bank angle in coordinated
turn and you risk an acelerated stall; add rudder for a skidding turn and
you risk stalling the inside wing.
>What we must fixate instead is
>"constant airspeed = constant load factor = constant stall speed".
Constant load factor = constant stall speed, yes. Constant airspeed has
nothing to do with it.
Don't get me wrong; i understand (or I think I understand) the technique
you're advocating: steepen the turn but don't pull back, instead letting
the airplane fall off into a descent. But saying that you're OK if you
maintain a constant airspeed is fixating on one aspect of the problem, and
can get a pilot into trouble. Fly at 1.3Vs and enter a 60 degree
coordinated turn and you either get an accelerated stall, or end up in a
dive which also requires more than 1G to pull out.
"But don't believe me," do the math yourself.
-Dana
P.S. A conventional pitot tube airspeed indicator is only accurate when
the pitot tube is aligned with the airflow. At high AOA, the airspeed
indicator will read less than the actual airspeed, i.e. you're actually
going faster than you think you are... which may explain why you're not
stalling even when the indicated airspeed is less than the stall speed
corresponding to the load factor corresponding to the bank angle.
"But don't believe me," do the math yourself.
--
Life is a sexually transmitted disease.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
Good stuff Tom. Can't say I've studiously done exactly what you
describe but sounds 100%.
In my younger and bolder days, on occasion I used a method to bleed
altitude that I would not recommend:
not S turning, not slipping, not the Kolb dive...
I would, on a high final, deliberately stall the old crate, or pretty
close to it. Sure would lose a lot of altitude
and the wings would stay nice and level. Then I'd toss a touch of
throttle at it and squeak it on nice and short.
Obviously this would be solo. Gusty conditions would be a no no, as
would hedgerows or any extraneous
turbulizers. Very exhilarating. Last time I did it for funsies was on
a near zero day in a field near where a neighbor
was operating a McCulloch J2 gyrocopter. I siloed it a touch too
aggressively and bent a few tubes
and cracked the windshield. It needed a new one anyway. Only landing I
did that short after that was
with a power failure in a neighbor's champ on take off with nothing good
ahead. (wires and houses)
Silo descent to plowed ground aside the runway. Zero roll out. No
damage. Old neighbor never asked me to fly his
areoplane again though.
I wouldn't try it in my Kolb. Too old. Back might break.
BB
On 28, Apr 2010, at 4:39 PM, The Kuffels wrote:
> Sent this two hours ago. So far it hasn't appeared on the list. My
paranoid side says there must be censorship of my ideas somewhere.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sigh. My conscience won't let me ignore this.
>
> pj, boyd, Dana:
>
> Dang it, ignore what I say, fly the maneuver and see for yourself. Go
to
> altitude, reduce power if you wish, enter a 30 degree bank and hold
> absolutely constant airspeed for 180 degrees and then roll level.
Repeat at
> 5 miles/knots slower. Repeat again until you are as close to Vso as
your
> ability to hold a constant airspeed allows. You will not stall.
>
> For more details as to why this is true review my messages in the
thread
> linked by Jason:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descending
+turn+stall
>
> Now:
>
> << If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,,
you
> may be ok. if the turn is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above
>>
>
> << In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of
the
> bank angle >>
>
> These out of context statements are exactly the misconception which
kills
> pilots every year. I know, it almost killed me during my primary
training.
> I know, base to final turn accidents are a major source of aircraft
> fatalities every year. They are true *if you maintain (approximately)
a
> constant vertical component for your lift vector.* The only way to do
this
> is to increase your total lift, in other words maintain constant
altitude,
> in other words increase your load factor.
>
> But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at
altitude.
>
> Look at the AIM diagram we have all had drummed into our subconscious.
As
> the angle of bank increases, the total lift increases to keep the
vertical
> component the same. Now with your hands block out all but the first
> airplane. Rotate the entire manual. This is the case of a constant
> airspeed in a turn. Some of the lift is now used to make the turn and
less
> lift is available to oppose gravity and you will *start* to descend
faster.
> But since the total lift is unchanged so is the stall speed. In other
> words, stall speed increases with load factor, not angle of bank.
>
> But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at
altitude.
>
> << Take a 45 degree bank, for example. In a normal, coordinated,
level
> turn, you pull 1.41G. If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank
and
> hold 1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus
you'll
> have a downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s.
This
> means that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased
by 566
> fpm. After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a
pretty
> steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it. >>
>
> The math here is wrong. After one second you are descending at 9
feet/sec,
> 2 seconds you are now at 19 ft/sec, 3 seconds = 28 ft/sec, 4 sec =
38 ft/sec
> or so. In addition it ignores the vertical component of drag which is
> significant.
>
> But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at
altitude.
>
> The above statements as well as the "death spiral" of Boyd's CFI are
the
> result of misunderstanding the context of what I and others are trying
to
> fix. The problem is the turn from base to final. Most pilots
initiate a
> bank of about 30 degrees. Half way through the turn they see they are
> overshooting the runway. What they should do is increase their angle
of
> bank to 45 degrees or even briefly 60 degrees at constant airspeed to
finish
> the turn. Instead, because "increased angle of bank means increased
stall
> speed" (in a different context) has been fixated in their minds they
try to
> fudge the situation with rudder and/or tightening up (pulling on the
stick)
> instead. This brings them to experience the other four fundamentals
of
> flight: stall, spin, crash and burn. What we must fixate instead is
> "constant airspeed = constant load factor = constant stall speed".
>
> But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at
altitude.
>
> Now just because I have an evil nature let me mention one more context
> besides turns at low altitude for landing. This should start another
thread
> in the Seafoam mode. The concept of constant airspeed control is also
> paramount in mountain search and rescue reversing turns and box canyon
> escapes. What I teach is no change in power, smoothly increase your
climb
> rate and bank until you reach your desired bank and airspeed, say Vs1
+ 10.
> Maintain this bank and airspeed until you have reversed direction.
You will
> now be in a decent but at a higher altitude, smoothly pullout and you
are
> now going in the opposite direction at roughly your starting altitude
and
> airspeed. This method allows the pilot to concentrate on airspeed
control
> and situational awareness without the distraction of power control.
The
> reduced airspeed during the turn also creates a very small radius of
turn.
>
> But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at
altitude.
>
> Let me finish with an irrelevant appeal to authority. Every, and I
mean
> every, CFI with whom I've had the above discussion and then taken
flying has
> adopted my emphasis on constant airspeed control for maneuvering close
to
> the ground.
>
> But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at
altitude.
>
> Good luck and have fun,
>
> Tom Kuffel, CFI
> EAA Flight Advisor
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:39:28 -0600
>
Sigh. My conscience won't let me ignore this.
.........
>
Tom,
Sounds like you are advocating flying a powered aircraft much like flying a
glider or sailplane. Sailplane instructors emphasize coordinated turns and
constant speed and never mention constant altitude. When I started flying
sailplanes, one of the things I had to unlearn was the desire to maintain
altitude through out a turn, and learn to fly at constant speed. You are
correct in that I never fell into a spin while thermalling while flying at
constant speed no matter how steep the bank or the speed.
With an engine as the energy source, one can easily recover any altitude lost after
a constant speed turn. I believe it is a less stressful way to fly on both
the pilot and the machine, since one does not have make power changes during
a turn to maintain constant altitude.
Thanks.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
....Here is a very good video about the "Impossible Turn" as performed by two guys
in a C172.
http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops).....
Richard,
Thanks for posting the "impossible turn" video. Very good indeed. It was missing
only two things to complete the picture. An AOA gauge and and G-meter.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296119#296119
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Ooops!
Actually there is a third thing missing in this video. The engine was running at
idle power. With idle power the relative effects of various degrees of bank
on turn time and altitude loss are correct but what is missing is the effect of
stopped prop. But still a very good informative video.... just not complete.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296126#296126
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Hello Tom,
I have a clutch on my engine so the prop windmills (and my airplane behaves) with
the engine at idle just like it would with the engine stopped.
Regards
Jason
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Ooops!
>
> Actually there is a third thing missing in this video. The engine was running
at idle power. With idle power the relative effects of various degrees of bank
on turn time and altitude loss are correct but what is missing is the effect
of stopped prop. But still a very good informative video.... just not complete.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296141#296141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jmmy Hankinson" <jhankin(at)planters.net> |
| Subject: | Re: BNC bulkhead connector |
Thanks for the reply's on the BNC connector I was looking for. The one I
wanted was the one that went through the floor of my Firefly to attach a
external antenna to my radio.
Only use my radio to listen to air traffic. Do not have a tower airport
near me. Ones near me are Savannah and Augusta Georgia. I am halfway
between each one. Sixty miles each way.
Thanks again for the help.
Do Nor Archive
Jimmy Hankinson
Firefly N6007L
Georgia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
Sigh. My conscience won't let me ignore this.
pj, boyd, Dana:
Dang it, ignore what I say, fly the maneuver and see for yourself. Go to
altitude, reduce power if you wish, enter a 30 degree bank and hold
absolutely constant airspeed for 180 degrees and then roll level. Repeat at
5 miles/knots slower. Repeat again until you are as close to Vso as your
ability to hold a constant airspeed allows. You will not stall.
For more details as to why this is true review my messages in the thread
linked by Jason:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descending+turn+stall
Now:
<< If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,, you
may be ok. if the turn is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above >>
<< In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the
bank angle >>
These out of context statements are exactly the misconception which kills
pilots every year. I know, it almost killed me during my primary training.
I know, base to final turn accidents are a major source of aircraft
fatalities every year. They are true *if you maintain (approximately) a
constant vertical component for your lift vector.* The only way to do this
is to increase your total lift, in other words maintain constant altitude,
in other words increase your load factor.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Look at the AIM diagram we have all had drummed into our subconscious. As
the angle of bank increases, the total lift increases to keep the vertical
component the same. Now with your hands block out all but the first
airplane. Rotate the entire manual. This is the case of a constant
airspeed in a turn. Some of the lift is now used to make the turn and less
lift is available to oppose gravity and you will *start* to descend faster.
But since the total lift is unchanged so is the stall speed. In other
words, stall speed increases with load factor, not angle of bank.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
<< Take a 45 degree bank, for example. In a normal, coordinated, level
turn, you pull 1.41G. If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank and
hold 1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus you'll
have a downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s. This
means that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased by 566
fpm. After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a pretty
steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it. >>
The math here is wrong. After one second you are descending at 9 feet/sec,
2 seconds you are now at 19 ft/sec, 3 seconds = 28 ft/sec, 4 sec = 38 ft/sec
or so. In addition it ignores the vertical component of drag which is
significant.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
The above statements as well as the "death spiral" of Boyd's CFI are the
result of misunderstanding the context of what I and others are trying to
fix. The problem is the turn from base to final. Most pilots initiate a
bank of about 30 degrees. Half way through the turn they see they are
overshooting the runway. What they should do is increase their angle of
bank to 45 degrees or even briefly 60 degrees at constant airspeed to finish
the turn. Instead, because "increased angle of bank means increased stall
speed" (in a different context) has been fixated in their minds they try to
fudge the situation with rudder and/or tightening up (pulling on the stick)
instead. This brings them to experience the other four fundamentals of
flight: stall, spin, crash and burn. What we must fixate instead is
"constant airspeed = constant load factor = constant stall speed".
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Now just because I have an evil nature let me mention one more context
besides turns at low altitude for landing. This should start another thread
in the Seafoam mode. The concept of constant airspeed control is also
paramount in mountain search and rescue reversing turns and box canyon
escapes. What I teach is no change in power, smoothly increase your climb
rate and bank until you reach your desired bank and airspeed, say Vs1 + 10.
Maintain this bank and airspeed until you have reversed direction. You will
now be in a decent but at a higher altitude, smoothly pullout and you are
now going in the opposite direction at roughly your starting altitude and
airspeed. This method allows the pilot to concentrate on airspeed control
and situational awareness without the distraction of power control. The
reduced airspeed during the turn also creates a very small radius of turn.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Let me finish with an irrelevant appeal to authority. Every, and I mean
every, CFI with whom I've had the above discussion and then taken flying has
adopted my emphasis on constant airspeed control for maneuvering close to
the ground.
But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude.
Good luck and have fun,
Tom Kuffel, CFI
EAA Flight Advisor
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn bact to the runway video |
Hi gang,
in regard to this subject....when I was young and before I had soloed
in a J-3 I had a world war ll navy pilot for a instructor....he seemed to
understand what a teenager might have in mind....we were quite high and he
had me do a circle using a house with a big porch as a point to circle
around....he said for me to imagine my girl friend standing on the porch in a
swimming suit waving at me, he had me do a steep bank and keep bringing
the stick back to keep the girl in sight all the time and adding more top
rudder to keep from losing altitude, I forgot what we did with the power
setting but am sure is was cruise or wide open, I will never forget what
happened.....we stalled very abruptly and the plane went over the top and down
into a very tight spin....was very impressive......after solo I am sure I
buzzed some girl friends house's but never made that mistake....just thought
you might find this piece of old history of interest....not sure how a kolb
would react...jswan
do not archive
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
Kolbers,
Viewed Richard Pike's recommended video yesterday evening. For those of you
with out a high speed Internet connection, I recorded the data, and here it
is. C 172 flying at a constant 65 ias making full 360 degree coordinated
turns.
Bank Lost Decent
Angle Altitude Rate
(deg) (feet) (fpm)
15 879 600
30 450 650
45 390 900
60 350 1500
The video displayed the instrument panel. The rate of decent did not
increase during the turn. The stall horn came on during the 45 degree bank
but there was no buffeting. There was some buffeting during the 60 degree
bank, but no stall horn.
Also the performed some 180 emergency turn arounds by setting their
altimeter to zero at 100 feet agl. They flew the airport runway at 100 ft
agl and initiated a climb at over the runway and climbed to 600 feet agl and
pulled the throttle. They could not get back to the airport using a 15
degree bank.
Good video!
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Tom and the gang:
Ok I don't think we are really that far apart. What I think we need now
is a definition of terms. Example: is a 1 g turn anything between .7 and
1.3 or .8 and 1.2...... give me your definition of 1 g maneuver.
I had given an example of a steep bank turn to emphasize the situation.
And my definition of 1 g plus is 1.01g and above. I am probably taking
things to literally.
Any time you turn a plane there is going to be more energy required. And
you can trade the energy needed to turn by unloading the wings momentarily
and remain at a literal 1g . But as soon as the plane returns to a steady
state and you remain in a turn, greater than 1g will be required. In a
shallow bank turn it may be as small as 1.05g total. In my definition that
is 1 plus g. If that is a 1 g maneuver by your definition, then we are
still on the same page.
When given the terms power off descending turn. It left the parameters a
bit too open. Now I had mentioned that I had not seen the video. So maybe
everyone else had a better idea of the parameters used.
Sorry if I misled anyone.
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
Dana said:
<< << In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function
of the
bank angle >>
Correct. >>
Not correct. This is only true in the special circumstance of
maintaining altitude, ie increasing total lift, aka load factor. The
emphasis on this without equal emphasis on the special circumstance is
*why* pilots in the stress of landing still stall by trying to increase
their rate of turn with rudder alone (uncoordinated flight) and/or
pulling back (increasing load factor). The certain antidote to this
error is constant airspeed during landing maneuvers.
Once again, go up in the air and test my statements. I don't dispute
holding a constant airspeed in a turn will increase your rate of decent.
But we are not talking about turns which last for minutes or even more
than a few seconds. I strongly dispute the notion that any technique
other than constant airspeed and coordinated flight independent of (less
than aerobatic) bank angle is the proper way to avoid problems during
the turn from base to final, particularly in situations of no or steady
power or practicing same, which should be almost always.
Boyd said:
<< I had given an example of a steep bank turn to emphasize the
situation.
And my definition of 1 g plus is 1.01g and above. I am probably
taking
things to literally. >>
Not really. I wasn't worried about 1 g +/- 10% or so. The problem is
the emphasis on bank angle materially increasing stall speed (I call
double a material increase) without equal emphasis that the real cause
is via increased load factor, and that this doesn't apply in a
descending turn has resulted in pilots killing themselves year after
year in the turn to final. And the absolutely, positively sure way to
not increase load factor in this turn is constant airspeed.
<< Any time you turn a plane there is going to be more energy
required. And
you can trade the energy needed to turn by unloading the wings
momentarily
and remain at a literal 1g . But as soon as the plane returns to a
steady
state and you remain in a turn, greater than 1g will be required. >>
This is not true. The lift vector on the wings has no idea what the
gravity vector is doing. Go up and set a bank angle of 20 degrees and
constant airspeed. You will find yourself in a steady state turn of 1
g. What will also happen is your rate of decent will increase. But
this decent is not in a vacuum. The increase in your decent is actually
slowed by the air such that several full circles are easily possible..
I've demonstrated this many times for people, even disbelieving fellow
CFIs. (Are CFIs really people?) Now when doing the same thing at 60
degree bank things get real exciting very soon, even at only 1/4 circle,
which may be Dana's point. But my point is this fact doesn't apply to
the problem, its cause or the proper solution to avoid it.
Tom Kuffel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed/Approach Technique |
Robert,
<< I would, on a high final, deliberately stall the old crate, or pretty
close to it. Sure would lose a lot of altitude
and the wings would stay nice and level. Then I'd toss a touch of
throttle at it and squeak it on nice and short. >>
A slight variation of this is very common when landing on short, no
go-around strips like in the mountains. The difference is choose a
speed slightly higher than Vso but lower than normal. And return to
normal approach speed before touchdown. By flying within this back side
of the power required curve you can greatly change your approach point
without drastic maneuvers by simply modulating your speed. It is
counter intuitive to shorten your touchdown point by slowing down
(raising the nose slightly) and lengthen by speeding up (lowering the
nose slightly) but is quickly mastered. This is much easier on
passengers' nerves than a sideslip and easier to judge than S-turns.
Relating to prior discussions, this airspeed changing is done only on
final after the last turn is over.
Hesitate to mention but for really short strips a related but different
and risky procedure is required. Get level with your touchdown point.
(These strips seem to always be on the sides or tops of mountains so
level approach is possible. If not, get as close to level as you can.)
Put the airplane as close to stall as you dare. Control altitude with
lots of engine power. When you get to the strip threshold smoothly
reduce or cut the power as required and plop down the final, hopefully
less than 6, inches. For a Kolb can't think of a strip where this
extreme technique is necessary.
But try the first technique, initially with lots of margin, then closer
to maximum. Even us old fuddy-duddies can use it safely if we don't
wait too long to return to normal approach over the threshold.
Tom Kuffel
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed/Approach Technique |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
The link is a video of a Zenith 701 or 750 using the "level" approach method that
Tom described.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0gXSk_f250
Note the ASI during landing and take-off. Unfortunately, you can't see the power/rpm
setting nor hear the engine due to music and the commentary audio track.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296275#296275
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
This always turns (pardon me) into such a lively discussion about angles,
constant speeds and gee loads and then somebody finally says something like,
"What will also happen is your rate of decent will increase"
and we get to the true crux of the matter. Something had to give among all
these constants and it seems to be that the ground will come up at a faster
rate to smite thee. How about that.
I read somewhere that there was a sign in the Curtiss Flying School office
that said, "Flying is simple, to go up pull back on the stick. To come down,
pull back farther". That was around 100 years ago and seems to be, amazingly
enough, still true today.
Rick
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 11:25 PM, The Kuffels wrote:
> Dana said:
>
> << << In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of
> the
> bank angle >>
>
> Correct. >>
>
> Not correct. This is only true in the special circumstance of maintaining
> altitude, ie increasing total lift, aka load factor. The emphasis on this
> without equal emphasis on the special circumstance is *why* pilots in the
> stress of landing still stall by trying to increase their rate of turn with
> rudder alone (uncoordinated flight) and/or pulling back (increasing load
> factor). The certain antidote to this error is constant airspeed during
> landing maneuvers.
>
> Once again, go up in the air and test my statements. I don't dispute
> holding a constant airspeed in a turn will increase your rate of decent.
> But we are not talking about turns which last for minutes or even more than
> a few seconds. I strongly dispute the notion that any technique other
> than constant airspeed and coordinated flight independent of (less than
> aerobatic) bank angle is the proper way to avoid problems during the turn
> from base to final, particularly in situations of no or steady power or
> practicing same, which should be almost always.
>
> Boyd said:
>
> << I had given an example of a steep bank turn to emphasize the situation.
> And my definition of 1 g plus is 1.01g and above. I am probably taking
> things to literally. >>
>
> Not really. I wasn't worried about 1 g +/- 10% or so. The problem is the
> emphasis on bank angle materially increasing stall speed (I call double a
> material increase) without equal emphasis that the real cause is via
> increased load factor, and that this doesn't apply in a descending turn has
> resulted in pilots killing themselves year after year in the turn to final.
> And the absolutely, positively sure way to not increase load factor in this
> turn is constant airspeed.
>
> << Any time you turn a plane there is going to be more energy required.
> And
> you can trade the energy needed to turn by unloading the wings momentarily
> and remain at a literal 1g . But as soon as the plane returns to a steady
> state and you remain in a turn, greater than 1g will be required. >>
>
> This is not true. The lift vector on the wings has no idea what the
> gravity vector is doing. Go up and set a bank angle of 20 degrees and
> constant airspeed. You will find yourself in a steady state turn of 1 g.
> What will also happen is your rate of decent will increase. But this decent
> is not in a vacuum. The increase in your decent is actually slowed by the
> air such that several full circles are easily possible.. I've demonstrated
> this many times for people, even disbelieving fellow CFIs. (Are CFIs really
> people?) Now when doing the same thing at 60 degree bank things get real
> exciting very soon, even at only 1/4 circle, which may be Dana's point. But
> my point is this fact doesn't apply to the problem, its cause or the proper
> solution to avoid it.
>
> Tom Kuffel
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
At 12:25 AM 4/30/2010, The Kuffels wrote:
>Dana said:
>
><< << In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of
>the
>bank angle >>
>
>Correct. >>
>
>Not correct. This is only true in the special circumstance of maintaining
>altitude, ie increasing total lift, aka load factor.
I see your point, but... it's correct if you're maintaining altitude, but
it's _also_ correct for a constant rate of descent, i.e. no vertical
acceleration... which isn't happening in your 1g turn.
> The emphasis on this without equal emphasis on the special circumstance
> is *why* pilots in the stress of landing still stall by trying to
> increase their rate of turn with rudder alone (uncoordinated flight)
> and/or pulling back (increasing load factor). The certain antidote to
> this error is constant airspeed during landing maneuvers.... I don't
> dispute holding a constant airspeed in a turn will increase your rate of
> decent. But we are not talking about turns which last for minutes or
> even more than a few seconds. I strongly dispute the notion that any
> technique other than constant airspeed and coordinated flight independent
> of (less than aerobatic) bank angle is the proper way to avoid problems
> during the turn from base to final, particularly in situations of no or
> steady power or practicing same, which should be almost always.
OK. I'm not saying your technique isn't valid; I'm just speaking as an
aeronautical engineer precisely defining the situation. In aero
engineering most flight conditions, other than stability and control
calculations, are analyzed steady state, which your 1G increasing rate of
descent gliding turn is not. Letting the airplane slide (not slip; by
"slide" I mean keeping the ball centered) out of a turn by letting the nose
drop is indeed a good way to manage a gliding turn. Reducing the load
factor also maintains energy since you're not holding high AOA which causes
drag and slows you down even more.
I simply take exception to the notion that all will be well if you maintain
constant airspeed. You say that avoidance of steep bank angle kills pilots
who, trying to avoid an accelerated stall, instead spin out of a skid, and
that's true, but it's only one side of the problem. On the other side,
believing that all will be OK if you only maintain a constant airspeed can
also get you into trouble... if a pilot does a 60 degree bank at 1.3Vs and
_doesn't_ back off on the stick and let the nose drop, he _will_ experience
an accelerated stall, which can be just as bad as the stall out of a skid.
So: Stall speed is a function of load factor, not (necessarily) bank
angle. Load factor IS a function of bank angle, but only in coordinated,
level or constant vertical speed, flight.
-Dana
--
Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
This is not true. The lift vector on the wings has no idea what the gravity
vector is doing. Go up and set a bank angle of 20 degrees and constant
airspeed. You will find yourself in a steady state turn of 1 g. What will
also happen is your rate of decent will increase. But this decent is not in
a vacuum. The increase in your decent is actually slowed by the air such
that several full circles are easily possible.. I've demonstrated this many
times for people, even disbelieving fellow CFIs. (Are CFIs really people?)
Now when doing the same thing at 60 degree bank things get real exciting
very soon, even at only 1/4 circle, which may be Dana's point. But my point
is this fact doesn't apply to the problem, its cause or the proper solution
to avoid it.
Tom Kuffel
Tom you said "Now when doing the same thing at 60 degree bank things get
real exciting very soon, even at only 1/4 circle," ok would you like to
explain in further detail just how ex citing and in what way?
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gray, Mark" <Mark.Gray(at)takata.com> |
| Subject: | Nose down at higher speeds. |
Both myself and a buddy who fly a Firestar and a Twinstar have the same is
sue, when we get to around 75 mph indicated the planes start to nose over a
nd begin to get a strange shuffling feel as if the wings are alternately sh
uffling forward, kind of a tail wag maneuver. This continues to become more
pronounced if we allow the speed to increase and it becomes necessary to a
pply substantial back pressure to stay level. I feel it is a shift of the A
C due to the airfoil but if so how do the faster Kolbs avoid this?
Mark
________________________________
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ivileged, proprietary or confidential information that is intended for a pa
rticular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or the employ
ee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the intended recipi
ent(s), you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,
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ormation contained in this e-mail is subject to the terms and conditions in
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| From: | robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose down at higher speeds. |
Glad we got led astray from the circle turning version of seafoam.
Also good to see another observation of the sensation
felt when going over 75, in my case a MkIII. It is uncomfortable. It
may have something to do with CG. Lots of owners
with higher HP planes seem to be doing just fine at higher speeds. I
feel that subtle differences like full enclosure canopy
and fabric covered rears may be playing a part. In my case I have the
open area behind the seats (gas tank area)
and, more importantly, a really wide windshield that is shoving my nose
down at higher speeds.
I have drilled another set of front spar holes (set no. three) and may
get around to trying them this year.
BB
MkIII, Suzuki
strip is freshly mowed, tractors moved out of the shed, just have to
retrieve the bird.
On 30, Apr 2010, at 2:16 PM, Gray, Mark wrote:
> Both myself and a buddy who fly a Firestar and a Twinstar have the
same issue, when we get to around 75 mph indicated the planes start to
nose over and begin to get a strange shuffling feel as if the wings are
alternately shuffling forward, kind of a tail wag maneuver. This
continues to become more pronounced if we allow the speed to increase
and it becomes necessary to apply substantial back pressure to stay
level. I feel it is a shift of the AC due to the airfoil but if so how
do the faster Kolbs avoid this?
>
> Mark
>
> The information in this email and attachments hereto may contain
legally privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is
intended for a particular recipient. If you are not the intended
recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
disclosure, copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of
this e-mail information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When
addressed to Takata customers or vendors, any information contained in
this e-mail is subject to the terms and conditions in the governing
contract, if applicable. If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete
any electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper
copies.
>
> Think Green - Please consider the environment before printing this
email.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
Hi Boyd,
<< Tom you said "Now when doing the same thing at 60 degree bank
things get real exciting very soon, even at only 1/4 circle," ok would
you like to explain in further detail just how ex citing and in what
way? >>
Sure. In any 1 g turn the amount of lift used to make the turn is then
not available to resist the force of earth's gravity. This means you
will increase your rate of descent. In shallow bank turns the effect is
small and not very apparent even after a full circle. At 60 degrees
however the rate of descent increases to a dramatic amount by at least a
half circle, sometimes sooner depending on aircraft aerodynamics and
your personal definition of exciting.
But this is not the situation which kills pilots. Here we are talking
about the descending quarter circle turn to final. Half way through the
turn the pilot sees he is overshooting the runway path. What he should
do is concentrate on maintaining the same airspeed, briefly increase his
angle of bank, even up to 60 degrees if needed, and smoothly roll out.
Doing this maintains a 1 g turn, ok a 1.1 g turn on rollout if one wants
to quibble, which does not increase your stall speed for all practical
purposes. You are at the increased bank angle for at most 1/8 of a
circle.
But because "increased bank angle means increased stall speed" is buried
in the back, dark recesses of our training too many pilots try to save
the situation by fudging the turn, either with rudder (uncoordinated
flight) or by pulling back (increased load factor).
My solution to this problem is the following basis for landing
approaches. Opposite the approach end of the runway reduce power and
set configuration (flaps and trim) to your desired approach speed.
Maintain this speed *constantly* until at least you are established on
final. Turns should normally be 20 - 30 degrees of bank. On turn to
final the bank can be increased as described above for the time needed
to complete the turn. This is guaranteed to not produce a stall or
breathtaking rates of descent.
Within this framework there are lots of variables such as adjusting
power or adjusting airspeed along the back side of the power curve after
being established on final. But from the start of the approach descent
until at least established on final the sure and certain way to avoid an
unintended stall is constant airspeed control.
Again, go out to altitude and try some example quarter circle turns for
yourself. Even at speeds unreasonably close to Vso you won't get even a
nibble of a stall at angles of bank below aerobatic flight. Or come
visit us in Whitefish and I'll demonstrate in an airplane easier to
stall than a Kolb.
Best,
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Nose down at higher speeds. |
| From: | "Eugene Zimmerman" <etzimm(at)gmail.com> |
Mark,
To prevent, or stop the tail wag/wing shuffle keep both feet on the rudder pedals.
Full wind screed "shape" affects nose down moment at increased speed.
Narrower and round is better than wide and flat.
The goal is to have the wind deflect around to the sides of the wind screen and
fuselage rather than up over the top of the wing.
I've tried both shapes, and while wider and flatter is more roomy, narrow and
round is more efficient and makes the plane pitch neutral which is a much safer
flight characteristics at higher speed.
attached is a photo with the narrow rounded wind screen which increased my top
speed about 10 mph.
My other wind screen was the full width of the wing gap cover and approximately
flat along the leading edge of the gap cover.
Gene
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296347#296347
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/landing_195.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg" <gtaylor35918(at)roadrunner.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose down at higher speeds. |
Mark,
Are you sure your are not experiencing aileron flutter?
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Gray, Mark
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:16 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Nose down at higher speeds.
Both myself and a buddy who fly a Firestar and a Twinstar have the
same issue, when we get to around 75 mph indicated the planes start to
nose over and begin to get a strange shuffling feel as if the wings are
alternately shuffling forward, kind of a tail wag maneuver. This
continues to become more pronounced if we allow the speed to increase
and it becomes necessary to apply substantial back pressure to stay
level. I feel it is a shift of the AC due to the airfoil but if so how
do the faster Kolbs avoid this?
Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
The information in this email and attachments hereto may contain
legally privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is
intended for a particular recipient. If you are not the intended
recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
disclosure, copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of
this e-mail information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When
addressed to Takata customers or vendors, any information contained in
this e-mail is subject to the terms and conditions in the governing
contract, if applicable. If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete
any electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper
copies.
Think Green - Please consider the environment before printing this
email.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed/Approach Technique |
| From: | "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com> |
> Hesitate to mention but for really short strips . . . .
You have to be really desperate to consider this option . . . i.e. the level approach
to a sloped strip. ! ! ! ! So your 'hesitation' is well noted !
Used to do a lot of Jungle flying in Papua New Guinea many years back in which
we used to fly into strips some of which had around 15% gradient and gouged out
of terrain of a much steeper gradient. Yes, it was in 'spam cans', C185, 206's
and the like, but the principle still applies.
If you fly this 'level approach' technique, you throw away all your safety margins.
Given the sloping terrain all around and the high probability of optical
illusion in such scenarios, what you 'think' is level may not be and until you're
on shortish final and finding that your putting in more and more power to
get to the threshold (and you're probably committed by this stage), it's only
then that you realize that in actual fact you're climbing and on the back of the
power curve to boot and maybe not enough power to get there anyway, if for
example, you get caught in a downdraft, not uncommon in mountain flying.
Stalls with high power settings whilst climbing usually produce a fairly dramatic
maneuver which will probably take more altitude to recover than you have available.
So you really are courting danger considering this option.
We had it drummed into us to do a 'normal' descent profile (which allows you to
steepen up if your a little high or shallow out if your a little low) and to
either carry a little more speed or power to cater for the increased energy required
to flare to a higher than normal attitude. (On the steeper strips we then
had to apply full power just to get to the top of the strip !)
You just had to get used to the new 'apparent' steep profile during your approach.
Once you got used to that it was all OK. I think the only time I did one of
those 'level' type approaches was because of low cloud base where there was
no other option other than divert and looking back I think that would have been
the wiser option, but I was young then (ahem).
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296363#296363
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
...But because "increased bank angle means increased stall speed" is buried in
the back, dark recesses of our training too many pilots try to save the situation
by fudging the turn, either with rudder (uncoordinated flight) or by pulling
back (increased load factor)....
Tom is correct here and I believe that the primary reason for the last part, "pulling
back (increased load factor)" is the more common and due largely to the
pilot's noticing the increased descent rate when banking steeper and his natural
response to halt the higher descent rate. If the approach trajectory is higher
then the increased descent rate would not be so "scary" and thus less likely
to elicit the "pulling back" response resulting in increased load factor and
higher stall speed.
This brings me to one of the reasons that over the years I've adopted the practice
of always (whenever possible) making a high approach and kill altitude only
after I'm on stable short final. With my Slingshot this is very easy to accomplish.
When I was flying an Allegro with rather high aspect ratio wings, it was
a lot more difficult to get down in a short distance, but achievable though
to a lessor degree.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296365#296365
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tom
But this is not the situation which kills pilots. Here we are talking about
the descending quarter circle turn to final. Half way through the turn the
pilot sees he is overshooting the runway path. What he should do is
concentrate on maintaining the same airspeed, briefly increase his angle of
bank, even up to 60 degrees if needed, and smoothly roll out. Doing this
maintains a 1 g turn, ok a 1.1 g turn on rollout if one wants to quibble,
which does not increase your stall speed for all practical purposes. You
are at the increased bank angle for at most 1/8 of a circle.
I guess there is still one other option not yet discussed... ,go ahead
and overshoot the centerline, stay at your current angle of bank and
speed, make the turn to final a 100 to 105 deg turn and angle back to the
centerline, then straighten up when on center. At the base to final turn
you should be 400 to 500 ft agl and plenty of time and altitude for another
few deg of turn.
During ppl training I did exactly what you recommend, and that is when my
cfi deemed it necessary to do an extended lesson on accelerated stalls.
Or come visit us in Whitefish and I'll demonstrate in an airplane easier to
stall than a Kolb.
That is the best offer I have heard all day. Hope you are not surprised
when I take you up on that. Is my waypoint in the gps still good?
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | N-Number question |
| From: | "Steven J." <shandle1(at)numail.org> |
Hey guys, great forum. I have a question concerning N-Numbering. I have been looking
at a Firefly that is for sale. It is a very nice aircraft but during my
inspection of the rudder I noticed a faint outline of an N-number. I later came
home and run the number through the FAA N-number query and out came the number.
It says that it was a reserved number that was cancelled/not assigned. It
seems somewhat obvious that the number was never officially assigned to the aircraft
but I wanted to check here first. I believe if an N-number is assigned
that you can't later un-assign it. I just want to make sure I can keep the aircraft
in the Ultralight catagory.
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296425#296425
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N-Number question |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Steven, The number was cancelled because the owner never renewed it or
completed the process of getting an experimental airworthiness certificate.
Had the certificate been issued you might have some difficulties getting
that undone but since it wasn't you should be fine as long as the aircraft
itself meets the ultralight standards.
My advice would be to make sure the fuel system has a 5 gallon capacity,
since this is the easiest violation to spot other than a second seat,
and have the aircraft weighed prior to buying it so you know that it truly
falls within FAR 103 limits. If the owner has completed the worksheets from
AC 103-7 all the better, but verify the weight so you know exactly where you
stand before the aircraft is yours.
Rick Girard
On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Steven J. wrote:
>
> Hey guys, great forum. I have a question concerning N-Numbering. I have
> been looking at a Firefly that is for sale. It is a very nice aircraft but
> during my inspection of the rudder I noticed a faint outline of an N-number.
> I later came home and run the number through the FAA N-number query and out
> came the number. It says that it was a reserved number that was
> cancelled/not assigned. It seems somewhat obvious that the number was never
> officially assigned to the aircraft but I wanted to check here first. I
> believe if an N-number is assigned that you can't later un-assign it. I just
> want to make sure I can keep the aircraft in the Ultralight catagory.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296425#296425
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N-Number question |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Steven,
It is more probable that the N-number was reserved by the owner or builder who
had plans of registering it as an airplane. Regardless of whether it was "assigned"
or "reserved" or even actually used by that aircraft, as long as it meets
the part 103 limitations, it can be de-registered and flown legally as an ultralight
vehicle.
If it was me contemplating flying it as a legal ultralight, I would make sure it
complies with the weight limitations before committing to its purchase. If the
owner was planning on registering it and getting an experimental airworthiness
certificate, then there is a good chance that was because it was/is overweight.
All this assumes you care about flying legally. If you live way out in the boonies
you may not care and perhaps get away with it. In my area that would be quite
risky, especially since the owner of the airport where I fly out of is an
FAA inspector.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296451#296451
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: N-Number question |
>
>Hey guys, great forum. I have a question concerning N-Numbering. I have
been looking at a Firefly that is for sale. It is a very nice aircraft but
during my inspection of the rudder I noticed a faint outline of an N-number.
I later came home and run the number through the FAA N-number query and out
came the number. It says that it was a reserved number that was
cancelled/not assigned. It seems somewhat obvious that the number was never
officially assigned to the aircraft but I wanted to check here first. I
believe if an N-number is assigned that you can't later un-assign it. I just
want to make sure I can keep the aircraft in the Ultralight catagory.
>
If you can check these two items on the AC 103-7, Appendix 4 form, you can
ignor what is under the paint.
"AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATION:
(v) no U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate is currently issued to this
particular ultralight unit
(v) this ultralight has not been registered with the U.S. federal
government."
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N-Number question |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
...(v) this ultralight has not been registered with the U.S. federal
government." ...
Jack,
You are correct. I forgot about the "never has been registered" clause. My agin
memory rears its ugly head.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently
to reason incorrectly.
- Michel de Montaigne
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296455#296455
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | M V who will be there ? |
Hi All,
Just courious . Who plans to be at MV this year? Are you planing on flying or driving?
I hope to fly in (first time flying)
Pulled my plane in on a trailer last year, had a great time. Met a bunch of interesting
people, looking forward to more
of the same this time.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: M V who will be there ? |
Who plans to be at MV this year? Are you planing on flying
or driving? I hope to fly in (first time flying)
Pulled my plane in on a trailer last year, had a great
time. Met a bunch of interesting people, looking forward to more
of the same this time.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville Texas
Hi Frank G/Gang:
Time to get ready for the 8th Annual Kolb
Unplanned/Unorganized Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah.
The dates are 21-23 May 2010, Friday - Sunday.
I am flying. Will depart, either the Monday or Tuesday
prior, depending on the weather. Usually, I encounter foul weather some
where along my 1,500 mile route of flight through Alabama, Mississippi,
Arkansas, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah. Spend the first night in
Sherman, TX, and the second at Los Lunas, NM. That leaves a half day flight
for the final day. Normally takes about 20 flight hours, broken down into
two 8 hour and one 4 hour day. By the time I get to MV, I am ready to sit
under the wing on the airstrip and listen to flying stories.
Everyone is welcome. It is a Kolb Flyin, but we try to
make everyone feel at home with our group.
From MV I plan to fly to the Rock House near Burns
Junction, Oregon. After my visit there, if I feel spry enough, I will fly
over to the West Coast and back down through California before I turn East
and head back to Alabama.
Looking forward to visiting with old friends and making
new ones at MV.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp |
Kolb guys=2C
For those of you that have Ivo Props=2C and especially those of you that
have them equiped with the electrical adjustment motor=2C the discussion ca
me up about their control on the Aeroelectric list.
A guy that has the electric operated prop mentioned he sure would like to
know when the motor is drawing it's limit of amps=2C BEFORE it has to pop
the circuit breaker. (If you change the pitch in flight=2C about the only
way to find out where the pitch is=2C is to twist the prop all the way flat
=2C until the circuit breaker has been maxed out=2C and pops! Not a very g
ood way to go!
So=2C after a couple of suggestions=2C and one preliminary design=2C Bob
Nuchols (the Aeroelectric guru!!) came up with this design (see attahment).
Now=2C when a person changes pitch in flight=2C an electrical circuit wil
l notify him of the increasing current draw=2C and light an LED at a preset
current=2C rather than exceed this limit and pop the breaker.
Much better way to go!!
Bob included an email with his design that identified the intended parame
ters. If anyone is interested=2C let me know=2C and I'll copy it and send
it to you.
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: M V who will be there ? |
Karen and I will be driving in, currently planning on arriving Thursday
afternoon.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M V who will be there ?
Who plans to be at MV this year? Are you planing on
flying or driving? I hope to fly in (first time flying)
Pulled my plane in on a trailer last year, had a
great time. Met a bunch of interesting people, looking forward to more
of the same this time.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville Texas
Hi Frank G/Gang:
Time to get ready for the 8th Annual Kolb
Unplanned/Unorganized Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah.
The dates are 21-23 May 2010, Friday - Sunday.
I am flying. Will depart, either the Monday or
Tuesday prior, depending on the weather. Usually, I encounter foul
weather some where along my 1,500 mile route of flight through Alabama,
Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah. Spend the
first night in Sherman, TX, and the second at Los Lunas, NM. That
leaves a half day flight for the final day. Normally takes about 20
flight hours, broken down into two 8 hour and one 4 hour day. By the
time I get to MV, I am ready to sit under the wing on the airstrip and
listen to flying stories.
Everyone is welcome. It is a Kolb Flyin, but we try
to make everyone feel at home with our group.
From MV I plan to fly to the Rock House near Burns
Junction, Oregon. After my visit there, if I feel spry enough, I will
fly over to the West Coast and back down through California before I
turn East and head back to Alabama.
Looking forward to visiting with old friends and
making new ones at MV.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | M V who will be there ? |
Weather permitting I will be flying down
Boyd young
Mkiii
Brigham city ut.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Loud X-country flights |
John H.=2C and others=2C
John=2C a while back you asked about insulating material that you could i
nstall in
your MkIII=2C to help reduce cabin noise.
The last I heard=2C I think you said you found the material you wanted.
I'm curious if you ever got around to installing this material=2C and if
you've had a chance to go on a long enough flight to be able to judge how w
ell it works.
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inb
ox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O
N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loud X-country flights |
I'm curious if you ever got around to installing this material, and if
you've had a chance to go on a long enough flight to be able to judge how
well it works.
Mike Welch
Mike W/Gang:
Haven't completed the task.
Flew to Lakeland without it, about 11 hours. Could still hear, a little,
when I got back to Alabama.
If I get energetic before time to go to MV, I'll pull the center section and
stick some insulation in there. I probably need to take the time to do
that. I also have a new set of Lord Mounts for the engine. The center
section needs to be pulled to lift the engine enough to do that job.
Hopefully, I will get all enthused and "get'er done".
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Loud X-country flights |
John=2C
From the looks of all the thunderstorms headed our way=2C there ought to
be lots of time for indoor projects. : )
I'm looking forward to a flight report! If the improvements sound good
=2C I'm close to a point where I could include them in my plane's completio
n.
Mike W
From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Loud X-country flights
Date: Sun=2C 2 May 2010 11:18:10 -0500
I'm curious if you ever got around to installing this material=2C and if
you've had a chance to go on a long enough flight to be able to judge how
well it works.
Mike Welch
Mike W/Gang:
Haven't completed the task.
Flew to Lakeland without it=2C about 11 hours. Could still hear=2C a littl
e=2C when I got back to Alabama.
If I get energetic before time to go to MV=2C I'll pull the center section
and stick some insulation in there. I probably need to take the time to do
that. I also have a new set of Lord Mounts for the engine. The center se
ction needs to be pulled to lift the engine enough to do that job.
Hopefully=2C I will get all enthused and "get'er done".
john hauck
mkIII
Titus=2C Alabama
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hot
mail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P
ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loud X-country flights |
I'm looking forward to a flight report! If the improvements sound good,
I'm close to a point where I could include them in my plane's completion.
Mike W
Mike W/Gang:
Removing the center section from my mkIII is a major undertaking. That is
the only reason the insulation is not already installed. If I was in the
building and completion phase, I'd already have the insullation stuck in
place. No doubt that any insulation would be an improvement in noise
control in my mkIII.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mrs. Michelle Cole" <apilot(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp |
I find that I almost never need to adjust the prop. After going through much thrust
testing. I found that the difference from 5000 rpm to and through 6300
rpm only gives an additional 40 lbs of thrust. Since I do not like to run over
5000 because of the fact that 4 cycles (Geo Metro Suzuki G10 engine) have more
service life than when operated in the higher rpm range. I do believe that
the windage tray and the re-ground cam have given me more power. As for popping
the breaker, it has only happened once on the ground when I over pitched it.
Also, for reasons that I do not understand, I get more thrust from cutting
the 3-blade 72" dia down to
70" dia. I fly with a friend in a Maxair Drifter with a 582 Rotax. We have about
the same climb and cruise and he burns around 4 gallons per hour and I burn
slightly over 2.5 gallons per hour. His engine weight is 135 lbs and mine is
145 lbs with electric prop, exhaust and radiator.
Vic Kolb Mark III Classic
---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 07:47:59 -0700
>From: owner-kolb-list-(at)matronics.com (on behalf of Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>)
>Subject: Kolb-List: In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp
>To:
>
> Kolb guys,
>
> For those of you that have Ivo Props, and
> especially those of you that have them equiped with
> the electrical adjustment motor, the discussion came
> up about their control on the Aeroelectric list.
> A guy that has the electric operated prop
> mentioned he sure would like to know when the motor
> is drawing it's limit of amps, BEFORE it has to pop
> the circuit breaker. (If you change the pitch in
> flight, about the only way to find out where the
> pitch is, is to twist the prop all the way flat,
> until the circuit breaker has been maxed out, and
> pops! Not a very good way to go!
>
> So, after a couple of suggestions, and one
> preliminary design, Bob Nuchols (the Aeroelectric
> guru!!) came up with this design (see attahment).
> Now, when a person changes pitch in flight, an
> electrical circuit will notify him of the increasing
> current draw, and light an LED at a preset current,
> rather than exceed this limit and pop the breaker.
> Much better way to go!!
>
> Bob included an email with his design that
> identified the intended parameters. If anyone is
> interested, let me know, and I'll copy it and send
> it to you.
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and
> e-mail from your inbox. Get started.
>________________
>IVO-Prop_Pitch_Controller.pdf (106k bytes)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
Kolbers,
Riding the mower mid-week, I had some time to think about constant velocity
and 1g turns, and so when the rain started, I started running some numbers.
I picked numbers that were suitable for the FireFly and looked at constant
level turns and descending turns. I did not discover a one g power off
descending turn. But I found that increasing the rate of descent while
keeping the same speed, did decrease wing and g loads and stall speed. This
may not be practical in that it may require a device to increase the drag.
I don't know if flaperons will do the trick. The numbers indicate that if I
keep the FireFly over 40 mph in a coordinated level and/or descending turns,
there is no danger of a stall. If I increase the margin to 50 mph there is
little chance of stall due to an uncoordinated turn.
What follow is my attempt at non-powered flight dynamics. It will be
interesting to get back into the air and to check out some these
calculations. More rain coming tomorrow.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sailplane Aerodynamics
Centrifugal Force -> F = WV^2 or R = WV^2
gcR gcF
Where:
W = FireFly gross Weight = 500 pounds
gc = gravitational constant 32.2 ft/sec2
F = centrifugal force in lbf
V = Velocity in ft/sec
^ -> indicates the number trailing is an exponent
R = radius of turn in feet
F = W x tan()
Where:
= angle of bank in degrees
Substituting into:
R = WV^2 = WV^2 = V^2
gcF gcW tan() gc tan()
Constant G-Load = 1/cos()
Find new stall speeds
Given L = CV2 or C = L/V^2 and V = (L/C)^0.5
Where:
C = coefficent of lift
L = Lift in pounds
V = Velocity in mph
Solve for C at FireFly stall in level flight
C = 500/(27)^2 = 0.686
Using this value of C, calculate the new stall speeds for banking turns.
Turn Radius in Feet While Maintaining Altitude
Bank _________Air Speed______ Constant New FireFly Stall
Angle |mph->| 40 | 50 | 60 | Altitude Wing Stall Speed
(deg) |fps->|58.7 |73.3 | 88.0| G-Load Load (mph) Increase
| radius in feet | (lbf)
0 | ---infinite--- | 1.00 500 27.0 0%
| | | |
15 | 399 | 623 | 898 | 1.04 518 27.5 1.9%
| | | |
30 | 185 | 289 | 417 | 1.15 577 29.0 7.4%
| | | |
45 | 107 | 167 | 240 | 1.41 707 32.1 18.9%
| | | |
60 | 62 | 96 | 138 | 2.00 1,000 38.2 41.5%
Time to Turn 180 Degrees in Seconds
T = ?r/V
Where:
T = time is in seconds
? = pi = 3.1416
V = velocity is in feet per sec
Bank Air Speed
Angle mph-> 40 50 60
(deg) fps->58.7 73.3 88.0
15 21.4 26.7 32.1
30 9.9 12.4 14.9
45 5.7 7.2 8.6
60 3.3 4.1 4.9
Turn Rate in Degrees/Second
Turn rate = 180/T in degrees/second
Bank Air Speed
Angle mph-> 40 50 60
(deg) fps->58.7 73.3 88.0
15 8.4 6.7 5.6
30 18.2 14.5 12.1
45 31.6 25.0 20.9
60 54.5 43.9 36.7
Now what happens if one lowers the nose, reduces power and flies at 50 mph
with 500, 1,000, 1,500 fpm or 8.33, 16.67, 25.00 fps rates of descent.
If one lowers the nose and flies at the same speed and constant velocity in
a circular spiral path, the time to turn 180 degrees increases with the
increase in descent rate. This is because the total distance flown will
increase to complete the turn. This in turn lowers the centrifugal force as
the distance traveled to complete the turn increases. This change in
centrifugal force can be found by calculating the path length for 360 degree
turn and from this determine the effective radius that generates the
centrifugal force. Or by finding the new velocity vector component in the
horizontal plane and applying it to original radius of turn. Calculating
for a 50 mph coordinated(?) turn. I don't know if these assumptions lead to
coordinated turns or not.
Bank Descent Horz Horz Wing New FireFly Stall 180 180
Angle Rate Vel Turn G Wing Stall Speed Turn Altitude
(deg) (fpm) (fps) Rad Load Load (mph) Increase Time Loss
(ft) (lbf) (sec) (ft)
15 0 73.3 623 1.04 518 27.5 1.9% 26.7 0
500 72.8 627 1.03 517 27.5 1.9% 27.1 177
1,000 71.4 639 1.03 515 27.4 1.5% 28.1 369
1,500 68.9 662 1.02 512 27.3 1.1% 30.2 602
30 0 73.3 289 1.15 577 29.0 7.4% 12.4 0
500 72.8 291 1.15 574 28.9 7.0% 12.6 82
1,000 71.4 297 1.13 567 28.7 6.3% 12.8 168
1,500 68.9 307 1.11 555 28.4 5.2% 14.0 279
45 0 73.3 167 1.41 707 32.1 18.9% 7.4 0
500 72.8 168 1.40 700 31.9 18.1% 7.2 47
1,000 71.4 171 1.36 681 31.5 16.7% 7.5 99
1,500 68.9 178 1.30 649 30.8 14.1% 8.1 162
60 0 73.3 96 2.00 1,000 38.2 41.5% 4.1 0
500 72.8 97 1.97 985 37.9 40.4% 4.2 27
1,000 71.4 100 1.87 936 36.9 36.7% 4.4 58
1,500 68.9 102 1.76 879 35.8 32.6% 4.7 94
Conclusions:
1. If you react well, the FireFly should be able to return to the runway
with an engine out at 300 feet agl by dropping the nose and banking at
30 degrees or higher.
2. Drop the nose and fly at best glide speed -> 50 mph
3. Dropping the nose will lower the wing g-load and stall velocity in a
turn.
4. Make coordinated turns, but at 50 mph there is some built in margin of
safety.
5. Constant velocity flying is not such a bad idea.
6. Be gentle with the stick in pitch.
7. When in doubt push the stick forward, it increases ias and distance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> |
That sounds pretty good - would you be willing to post your various numbers for
your airplane?
Climb out at what speed & rpm -
Cruise at what rpm -
What rpm do you consider normal - too high - and optimum?
Anything else you can think of so that us 582 users who cannot afford a Rotax 912
can have something to relate to - give us as much context as you can.
Also what reduction ratio you are using, who makes your reduction drive system,
type of prop, number of blades and anything else pertinent - all in one post.
(This is your chance to brag on your setup -WEAR IT OUT!)
Thanks,
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296560#296560
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to the runway video |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Jack,
Thanks for the math. Looks like the math jibes well with my experience and that
of others who have used this technique.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently
to reason incorrectly.
- Michel de Montaigne
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296567#296567
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Loud X-country flights |
| From: | "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com> |
Just FYI, I saw this ad for sound insulating material recently.
http://www.soundexproducts.com/
David
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296568#296568
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Loud X-country flights |
| From: | "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com> |
Also just FYI, I saw this 'new' prop at the AERO 2010 expo in Friedrichshafen in
Southern Germany last month. It's called the QD2, a four bladed prop with a
difference. That being that the two sets of two blades are both angularly and
axially offset and that apparently reduces the noise signature and they also claim
some performance improvements too. It's currently being test flown on a
trike.
See this site. http://www.e-props.fr/EP_RD.html Info is about 2/3rds down the page.
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296569#296569
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp |
Mrs. Michelle Cole (I really know you're Vic G. he he)=2C
Thanks for the feedback regarding your IvoProp. I am glad to hear you do
n't fiddle with it much. That's one of the things I did NOT want to do (ad
just it much). I'd be happy if I could just set it...and forget it.
I think I'll still build the circuit=2C tho. With my very limited experi
ence with adj. props=2C I think knowing roughly where the pitch is will be
better than nothing (at least for me).
My Ivo is already cut down to a 70" diameter. I bought it that way.
I second what Bro Pike said. How about a full run-down on your engine...
.performance=2C numbers=2C noise levels=2C as much as you can fill in the b
lanks.
Regarding GEO engines=2C and their performance=3B it shouldn't be too mu
ch longer before I can fire mine up again. I had it 100% complete and runn
ing at one time=2C prior to installing the turbo=2C but then decided to add
my own turbocharger and hi-po cam.
Adding a turbo should put the power around a Rotax 912=2C maybe more...ma
ybe less. I won't know exactly=2C until I can measure thrust and other stu
ff. We'll see.......
BTW=2C my installation includes a host of gauges that monitor all the cri
tical things to watch for=2C i.e. boost gauge=2C EGT=2C AFR=2C Manifold Pre
ssure=2C etc. To install my turbo package (turbo=2C gauges=2C new muffler
=2C cam=2C etc.)=2C I have spent a total of around $1500. Add this to my e
ngine and prop costs of $6500 and I have a grand total cost of $8000 for ev
erything.
Mike Welch
MkIII
> From: apilot(at)surewest.net
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sun=2C 2 May 2010 19:42:54 -0700
>
t>
>
> I find that I almost never need to adjust the prop. After going through m
uch thrust testing. I found that the difference from 5000 rpm to and throug
h 6300 rpm only gives an additional 40 lbs of thrust. Since I do not like t
o run over 5000 because of the fact that 4 cycles (Geo Metro Suzuki G10 eng
ine) have more service life than when operated in the higher rpm range. I d
o believe that the windage tray and the re-ground cam have given me more po
wer. As for popping the breaker=2C it has only happened once on the ground
when I over pitched it. Also=2C for reasons that I do not understand=2C I g
et more thrust from cutting the 3-blade 72" dia down to
> 70" dia. I fly with a friend in a Maxair Drifter with a 582 Rotax. We hav
e about the same climb and cruise and he burns around 4 gallons per hour an
d I burn slightly over 2.5 gallons per hour. His engine weight is 135 lbs a
nd mine is 145 lbs with electric prop=2C exhaust and radiator.
> Vic Kolb Mark III Classic
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Sun=2C 2 May 2010 07:47:59 -0700
> >From: owner-kolb-list-@matronics.com (on behalf of Mike Welch <mdnanwelc
h7(at)hotmail.com>)
> >Subject: Kolb-List: In-flight Electric Adjustable IvoProp
> >To:
> >
> > Kolb guys=2C
> >
> > For those of you that have Ivo Props=2C and
> > especially those of you that have them equiped with
> > the electrical adjustment motor=2C the discussion came
> > up about their control on the Aeroelectric list.
> > A guy that has the electric operated prop
> > mentioned he sure would like to know when the motor
> > is drawing it's limit of amps=2C BEFORE it has to pop
> > the circuit breaker. (If you change the pitch in
> > flight=2C about the only way to find out where the
> > pitch is=2C is to twist the prop all the way flat=2C
> > until the circuit breaker has been maxed out=2C and
> > pops! Not a very good way to go!
> >
> > So=2C after a couple of suggestions=2C and one
> > preliminary design=2C Bob Nuchols (the Aeroelectric
> > guru!!) came up with this design (see attahment).
> > Now=2C when a person changes pitch in flight=2C an
> > electrical circuit will notify him of the increasing
> > current draw=2C and light an LED at a preset current=2C
> > rather than exceed this limit and pop the breaker.
> > Much better way to go!!
> >
> > Bob included an email with his design that
> > identified the intended parameters. If anyone is
> > interested=2C let me know=2C and I'll copy it and send
> > it to you.
> >
> > Mike Welch
> > MkIII
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and
> > e-mail from your inbox. Get started.
> >________________
> >IVO-Prop_Pitch_Controller.pdf (106k bytes)
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N-Number question |
| From: | "GeoB" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net> |
April 09, 2010 - May 03, 2010
Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-jt