Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-nt
March 22, 2016 - April 12, 2016
wonky.
>
>
>
> It took a few moments to finally understand how the
> mechanism works, and after looking at everything
several
> times it was clear that there is no direct
structural
> attachment between the main spar tube of the
stabilizer
to
> the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural
load
> path between the root end of the main stabilizer
spar
tube
> and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator
> hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft
style
> extruded hinge.
>
>
>
> So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on
the
root
> end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through
the
> hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally
into
the
> steel ring at the back of the fuselage.
>
>
>
> But that's not even the biggest issue in my head.
The
> larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat
hinge
is
> riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of
> contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root
> stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which
itself
is
> cantilevered off of one tangent point on the
tube.
>
>
>
> Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not
a
> mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a
retired
> aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of
experience.
> I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and
I
was
> informed that my concerns about this system were
valid.
My
> Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment.
>
>
>
> My question for any real, degreed, qualified,
> aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone
looked
at the
> stabilizer root attachment load path and had these
same
> concerns?
>
>
>
> ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his
design,
> and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern
at
this
> point. What I want to know is why this load path -
through
> two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable
elevator,
> and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why
it
was
> not appropriate to install an attachment bracket
onto
the
> fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light
aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for
non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
>
> br>
> fts!)
>
> r>
>>
> w.buildersbooks.com"
rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> -Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Blessed
> are the cracked, for they shall let in the
light.Groucho
> Marx
>
>
>
>
>
>
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
-
List Contribution Web
Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | undoctor <undoctor(at)rcn.com> |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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Thank you Dave,
There was and is no intention of coming across like nobody else had thought this
through. Quite the contrary; if I remember correctly, my first post on the subject
that started all this turmoil was actually asking about whether other people
had questioned this before I came along, and what the reasons were for designing
that mechanism in a counter-intuitive manner. I was more surprised than
anyone to find that I appeared to be the first person who asked about it.
Bill
On Tue, 3/22/16, undoctor wrote:
I believe the problem lies in that, whether or not you realize it, you come across
as having the opinion that before you
came on the scene there was never anyone who could think things through as thoroughly
and analytically as
you.Trust me when I tell you that that's a huge error.
Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
On Tue, 3/22/16, Larry Cottrell wrote:
I have also seen several guys on the list that were convinced that a bit of this
and a bit of that would
make the plane perform just fine with one of the other types of engines.
Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better idea, by all mean have
at it.
Nobody here cares if you can improve your plane.
just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does just exactly what I want
and need.
:-)
Larry
--------------------------------------------
This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I believe the vast
majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated areas... am I right about
this? The majority of people who have flown with 2 stroke engines over time have
had emergency landings due to inflight failures. Even the people who have
figured out how to reliably operate the 2 strokes recommend against it when I
say that I'm based out of a big city municipal airport. So my discussion about
alternate engines was based on this reality. Believe me, it would be quick, cheap
and easy to just bolt a 503 on the FireStar like it was designed for.
I'd be absolutely thankful if you would be able to recommend a truly reliable engine
for this aircraft (for safe flying over a densely populated area) that is
as affordable as a used 503 2 stroke. I already know where to look for engines
that are not affordable.
I do NOT "have a better idea", I just have a different priority requirement than
most of the Kolb operators do. I need something that is more reliable than the
Rotax 2 strokes.
Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any time, inferred or expressed?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Bill B/Kolbers:
I'll tell you if there was a cheap, reliable, alternate four stroke power plant
for a Kolb aircraft, it would be flying on a lot of Kolbs and other makes of
ULs and home builts.
Sometimes one must pay for what he wants. I have. Haven't had an engine out in
well over 3,000 hours. Did have a couple engine outs caused by bad fuel, but
that was pilot error and had nothing to do with engine reliability.
Some of us have tried to share with you a little of our experience, but it seems
you don't want to hear what we have to say.
By now you should recognize there is no elevator hinge problem. If you want to
change yours when you get around to getting your hands dirty and actually building
a Kolb, have at it.
john h
mkIII
Fort Campbell, Kentucky
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
On Tue, 3/22/16, Larry Cottrell wrote:
I have also seen several guys on the list that were convinced that a bit of this
and a bit of that would make the plane perform just fine with one of the
other types of engines.
Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better idea, by all mean have
at it.
Nobody here cares if you can improve your plane.
just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does just exactly what I want
and need.
:-)
Larry
--------------------------------------------
This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I believe the vast
majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated areas... am I right about
this? The majority of people who have flown with 2 stroke engines over time have
had emergency landings due to inflight failures. Even the people who have
figured out how to reliably operate the 2 strokes recommend against it when I
say that I'm based out of a big city municipal airport. So my discussion about
alternate engines was based on this reality. Believe me, it would be quick, cheap
and easy to just bolt a 503 on the FireStar like it was designed for.
I'd be absolutely thankful if you would be able to recommend a truly reliable engine
for this aircraft (for safe flying over a densely populated area) that is
as affordable as a used 503 2 stroke. I already know where to look for engines
that are not affordable.
I do NOT "have a better idea", I just have a different priority requirement than
most of the Kolb operators do. I need something that is more reliable than the
Rotax 2 strokes.
Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any time, inferred or expressed?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Addendum - Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "Leland.Lam" <wadelamoreaux(at)gmail.com> |
I think a question you might want to consider is are your credentials of being
a test pilot strong enough that you can make a design change that can result in
an uncertain outcome?
I have spent 25 years in engineering, testing and manufacturing. I am hesitant
to stray to far from a known and working design.... at least when I am the test
pilot.
Just food for thought.
:D
--------
Kolb Mark III Classic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454005#454005
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
Bill, I am not interested in getting into a pissing match.
You wrote-"This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I
believe the vast majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated
areas."
I am under the impression that you intended this for back country use. This
is the first I have heard of heavily populated areas.
Even so, I don't see a problem either way. I flew a 503 to Demming NM and
back to Oregon on a 503. The only problem I had was the amount of gas that
it took. I have had one forced landing while flying a two stroke. I got
into a situation that I needed to fly my plane after a long lay off, and
before I had done an annual. I lost a spark plug cap on my way back home. I
was flying a 447 at the time (single ignition) That was when I sprained my
middle finger. Other than that I never had a problem. I am afraid that the
reputation of the two strokes is for the most part put forth by the Spam
can pilots who shudder at the thought of flying any thing uncertified much
less one of our toys. Or people who are unable to maintain their engines as
they should. What ever, it doesn't matter.
So far you have had good advice, that is one of the things that we on the
list pride ourselves about. It is not apparent to me that you are accepting
any of it. The Kolb with the proper engine is a fun reliable airplane even
if built to standard plans. VG's help a lot, making it even safer and more
fun to fly. Longer gear legs help as well. In my opinion the stock alum.
legs is the only weak spot on the plane, but then again Homer intended it
to be a weak spot so as to fail before the cage was damaged. In my case it
appeared, at least to me, to cause more damage than it prevented, therefore
the 4130 spring steel gear legs.
If there is one thing that I have learned, its that it is by far the best
to only do something once, and do it right the first time. I borrowed from
my 401 K to buy an HKS. I then paid myself back with interest. I didn't buy
it for the reliability, I bought it because a 503 would not get me to
another airport without taking extra gas with me. It has been a bit of
work, but it has been worth it. I do not intend to scrimp on my safety, for
the sake of saving a few pennies. Of course I have been flying a Firestar
for 19 years, so I am pretty happy with it.
There are a hell of a lot of very smart and handy guys on this list. I
would hazard a guess that we have managed to screw up a few times and in
the process learned a hell of a lot. All that experience is available to
you, and almost all of us will make the effort to pass it on to you, If you
appear to listen. Perhaps I am wrong, but I haven't noticed much listening
on your part.
I would guess the closest thing to an engineer on this list would be Jack
Hart. Personally from my experience that may be a good thing.
You wrote- "Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any
time, inferred or expressed?"
Perhaps I am an overly sensitive person, but as they say "paranoia is
merely an heightened sense of reality".
If you haven't done much to the Kit that you received, perhaps Kolb would
consider taking it back. That is if you are not happy with it or think it
is unsafe. If you do decide to keep it, make what ever changes you think
best. It is "experimental" after all. You are free to make any changes you
see fit.
Now I don't know about you, but this is my last comment on the subject.
Respectfully,
Larry
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Guys, I cannot believe what has happened here. The moment I asked a couple of technical
questions, and then explained my reasoning for simply asking the question,
people panicked, got insulted, and painted me as the bad guy who's trashing
a good airplane, or not wanting to hear what anyone else said, etc. A Heathen
!!!
I came to this list respectfully, asking for discussion and correspondence, and
perhaps even friendly debate about this stuff, NEVER ONCE saying I was smarter
than anyone, and NEVER ONCE saying I didn't want to hear about the experiences
of more experienced Kolbers. I had/have all sorts of ideas about modifications,
and adjustments, and upgrades and what not. I was just looking for a place
to discuss them, de-bunk them, argue the pros and cons of any given idea, and
brainstorm with like-minded Kolbers, etc.
The aircraft is indeed intended to be operated as a back country or off-airport
fun machine, but I am still based at a city municipal airport that requires me
to fly over solid city and houses to get into or out from that airport. So for
at least the first and last 10 minutes of every flight, I need a high level
of reliability. I also don't want to get stuck out in the middle of the desert
either, even with no houses below me. There's !(#*% rattlesnakes out there.
There is a good chance that my home airport won't even want me to fly this aircraft
there if I used a 2 stroke.
Like I said, I will limit my future questions on this list to things that relate
to the original Kolb plans and design. Any creative ideas, or new approaches,
or innovtive thinking stuff... I'll have to go back and discuss that on HBA
where people are not offended.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 3/22/16, John Hauck wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 4:31 PM
"John Hauck"
Bill B/Kolbers:
I'll tell you if there was a cheap, reliable, alternate four
stroke power plant for a Kolb aircraft, it would be flying
on a lot of Kolbs and other makes of ULs and home builts.
Sometimes one must pay for what he wants. I
have. Haven't had an engine out in well over 3,000
hours. Did have a couple engine outs caused by bad
fuel, but that was pilot error and had nothing to do with
engine reliability.
Some of us have tried to share with you a little of our
experience, but it seems you don't want to hear what we have
to say.
By now you should recognize there is no elevator hinge
problem. If you want to change yours when you get
around to getting your hands dirty and actually building a
Kolb, have at it.
john h
mkIII
Fort Campbell, Kentucky
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:03 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
On Tue, 3/22/16, Larry Cottrell
wrote:
I have also seen several guys on the list that were
convinced that a bit of this and a bit of that would
make the plane perform just fine with one of the other
types of engines.
Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better
idea, by all mean have at it.
Nobody here cares if you can improve your plane.
just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does
just exactly what I want and need.
:-)
Larry
--------------------------------------------
This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area.
I believe the vast majority of Kolbs are not being flown
over populated areas... am I right about this? The majority
of people who have flown with 2 stroke engines over time
have had emergency landings due to inflight failures. Even
the people who have figured out how to reliably operate the
2 strokes recommend against it when I say that I'm based out
of a big city municipal airport. So my discussion about
alternate engines was based on this reality. Believe me, it
would be quick, cheap and easy to just bolt a 503 on the
FireStar like it was designed for.
I'd be absolutely thankful if you would be able to recommend
a truly reliable engine for this aircraft (for safe flying
over a densely populated area) that is as affordable as a
used 503 2 stroke. I already know where to look for engines
that are not affordable.
I do NOT "have a better idea", I just have a different
priority requirement than most of the Kolb operators do. I
need something that is more reliable than the Rotax 2
strokes.
Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any
time, inferred or expressed?
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
Bill - take a deep breath. Prop your feet up. Relax. Nobody is mad, it's just that
you are amongst a bunch of old curmudgeons and we are doing what we do.
Having said that, I noticed something in your last post that says volumes to
me; "There is a good chance that my home airport won't even want me to fly this
aircraft there if I used a 2 stroke." OK.... I think I see the problem
I have a beloved daughter who is married to a nice guy who lives in LA. I raised
that child right, she has her head on straight, but after several years of living
in LA, she has adopted some really odd concepts, probably to get along with
her fruits and nuts peer group. Peer pressure can be tough.
Brother Bill, I have said all that to say this: if you get a Kolb, you will be
really out of the mainstream at a GA airport that expects you to be a conformist,
and you have 2 options: try to conform to their expectations, stay frustrated,
and look at your really neat little airplane like they do - with a critical
and jaundiced eye - always looking for and finding something else to criticize.
Or...
Stand up for yourself and your airplane and take no prisoners. I went out to the
hangar today and looked at the tail and the elevator hinge. I looked at the
rivits. I moved the elevator up and down, I looked at the cables, I thought about
it a bit. I decided that while I have a number of problems in my life, the
tail of my Kolb ain't one of them.
When I transferred to TRI and started training here, my instructor Joe was half
Indian, and had the worst temper of any man I ever knew. Ask any air traffic
controller, they will tell you that some days are just "dummy days." Everybody
on frequency is acting stupid. Joe had the solution to dummy days; he told me
"Pick somebody at random and just chew his ass unmercifully: the rest of them
will smarten up."
Try that at you GA airport and I suspect the rest of them will not say a peep regardless
of what engine you use or what your airplane looks like. And you will
be a lot happier, even if people do think of you as an old curmudgeon.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454011#454011
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com> |
I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has
developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into personal
flaming. Much more decent than many other forums......
I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying from
more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding. Love that
Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be copying it on a
homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on. I have no worries
about it's strength, considering the light loads involved, and history
confirms that.
'nother topic -
Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of deleting
the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each post and just
gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave a pertinent line
or two to specifically remind us what you are replying to.....
JG
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | JC's foldable project... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
JC
Bet we would all be impressed to see a drawing or some progress pics
of your project.... !
I have been, for some years, rolling the Fourstar around in my
head... It would look much like the one that Bill Bronson build many
years ago...He modified or built a cro molly fuselage for a set of
Firestar wings and tail feathers..It was powered by a half vw engine...
Here are a couple of low res pic... (have more) Herb
On 03/23/2016 04:46 AM, JC Gilpin wrote:
>
> I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has
> developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into
> personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums......
>
> I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying
> from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding.
> Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be
> copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on.
> I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads
> involved, and history confirms that.
>
> 'nother topic -
> Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of
> deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each
> post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave
> a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are
> replying to.....
>
> JG
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pcking" <pc.king(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: JC's foldable project... |
Did Bill Bronson publish/sell plans for that cage? That's nice idea.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Herb" <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:32 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project...
> JC
>
> Bet we would all be impressed to see a drawing or some progress pics
> of your project.... !
>
> I have been, for some years, rolling the Fourstar around in my
> head... It would look much like the one that Bill Bronson build many
> years ago...He modified or built a cro molly fuselage for a set of
> Firestar wings and tail feathers..It was powered by a half vw engine...
> Here are a couple of low res pic... (have more) Herb
>
>
> On 03/23/2016 04:46 AM, JC Gilpin wrote:
>>
>> I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has
>> developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into
>> personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums......
>>
>> I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying
>> from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding.
>> Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be
>> copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on.
>> I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads
>> involved, and history confirms that.
>>
>> 'nother topic -
>> Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of
>> deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each
>> post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave
>> a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are
>> replying to.....
>>
>> JG
>>
>
> --
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and
> turn left.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JC's foldable project... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I received some additional pics from a guy in Mo..who knew Bill...He
said that there were no plans...and he was not sure if Bill was still
with us...I think the plane was hangared in the Mississippi river flood
plain near St. Louis..
Looking at the pics..., Bill's knees were a bit high...indicating a
lack of leg room....
Bill sold half VW conversion plans....and claimed to have a good
crank,reciprocating parts balance technique....
My unbalanced Global engine would idle smoothly down to 600 rpms but
had some vibration in the 2800 to 3000 rpm range where I flew it on an
N3 pup....
It weighed 84 lbs..quite similar to a 447...but did not have the
thrust of course...Under 2 gal's an hour....Herb
On 03/23/2016 08:30 AM, pcking wrote:
>
>
> Did Bill Bronson publish/sell plans for that cage? That's nice idea.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:32 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project...
>
>
>> JC
>>
>> Bet we would all be impressed to see a drawing or some progress pics
>> of your project.... !
>>
>> I have been, for some years, rolling the Fourstar around in my
>> head... It would look much like the one that Bill Bronson build many
>> years ago...He modified or built a cro molly fuselage for a set of
>> Firestar wings and tail feathers..It was powered by a half vw engine...
>> Here are a couple of low res pic... (have more) Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/23/2016 04:46 AM, JC Gilpin wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has
>>> developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into
>>> personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums......
>>>
>>> I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying
>>> from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding.
>>> Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be
>>> copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on.
>>> I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads
>>> involved, and history confirms that.
>>>
>>> 'nother topic -
>>> Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of
>>> deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each
>>> post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave
>>> a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are
>>> replying to.....
>>>
>>> JG
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light
>> and turn left.
>>
>>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
Hi,
I have noticed that the messages keep getting stuck on the posts, but I
was unsure if it was happening to all the emails, or just mine. Is it all
emails from Kolb, or just mine. I am taking measures to stop mine, but
quite frankly it is a pain in the butt.
Thanks
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | undoctor <undoctor(at)rcn.com> |
Ckd1aWx0eSwgTGFycnkuIFRob3VnaHQgb2YgaXQgYWZ0ZXIgSSBoaXQgc2VuZC4gU29ycnkuwqAK
CkRhdmUgS3VscApEbyBub3QgYXJjaGl2ZQoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3Mg
NEcgTFRFIHNtYXJ0cGhvbmUKCjxkaXY+LS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLS0t
LTwvZGl2PjxkaXY+RnJvbTogTGFycnkgQ290dHJlbGwgPGxjb3R0cmVsbDEwMjBAZ21haWwuY29t
PiA8L2Rpdj48ZGl2PkRhdGU6MDMvMjMvMjAxNiAgMTA6NDQgQU0gIChHTVQtMDU6MDApIDwvZGl2
PjxkaXY+VG86IGtvbGItbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+U3ViamVjdDogUmU6
IEtvbGItTGlzdDogUmU6IEVsZXZhdG9yL1N0YWJpbGl6ZXIgaGluZ2UgYXNzJ3kgPC9kaXY+PGRp
dj4KPC9kaXY+SGksCiAgSSBoYXZlIG5vdGljZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZXMga2VlcCBnZXR0
aW5nIHN0dWNrIG9uIHRoZSBwb3N0cywgYnV0IEkgd2FzIA=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mojavjoe(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Aman Stuart you said it before I could!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 3:27:54 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Bill,
I am not an engineer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night. :) No, not
really, but I do have a fundamental understanding of load transmission thr
ough a structure.
First a question, and please don't be offended. Have you had an opportunity
to observe the structure of the Kolb tail while it was being folded and th
en again when it is bolted into place? I asked this because I found a coupl
e of things in the plans of the Firefly that I did not understand until I w
as able to actually see it live. Simply put, I had trouble visualizing it f
rom just the plans.
One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is the loads carried
by the brace wires. I would posit that most of the forces from the tail th
at are transmitted to the boom tube are carried by the braces. These, when
properly tensioned are actually pre-loaded slightly. This puts the tubes in
compression which makes the whole thing quite strong. It also transfers th
e loads from the horizontals to the steel post of the verticals which in tu
rn is transferred to the boom tube via the steel ring which is bolted and/o
r riveted to the tube.
Of course some loads are transferred through the hinge points and the front
hinge must be able to slide slightly as the elevator moves through its arc
of travel. Could this be made stronger? Of course, but not without sacrifi
cing something else such as weight or foldability. It is actually a very cl
ever design and I suspect that the majority of loads that move through the
rear hinge come from the elevator and not the stabilizer.
I would also bet that the loads carried through the hinges is far below the
shear and tension limits of properly installed rivets.
I am actually more "freaked out" by the fact that everything in the tail de
pends on that one little 3/16" bolt (Firefly) that holds the lower braces i
n place. Really, the threads on that bolt are all there is between you and
falling out of the sky. To combat this irrationality I swap out the bolt fa
irly often and the nuts even more often. If it really bothered me, I would
stay on the ground. :)
Perhaps you could send a copy of your plans to Barnaby Wainfan and ask for
his analysis. I hear he is a really nice guy. From reading his articles ove
r the years I am sure he could provide the answers you seek.
As Uncle Red used to say: "Remember, if women don't find you handsome, they
should at least find you handy"
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no tra
ditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fu
selage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rear
ward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and
pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from eith
er the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinge
s, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator rema
ined bolted to the fuselage.
Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabiliz
er is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, an
d there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essen
tially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand an
d this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material
. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin
metal back and forth.
Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a l
oose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a littl
e.
The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that
4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is
saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.
grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM
The rear attachment
of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is through the re
ar folding weldments that also act as the inner hinge. When it is set up co
rrectly the hinge line is on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weld
ment, however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that case the we
ldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the elevator), can slide on th
e bolt in the swivel weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit Fox a
nd repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my HO Homer's is the mos
t clever. All you have to do to fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a sing
le bolt that attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not sure how
you would make it any simpler.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016
at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle
wrote:
Bill Berle
Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified mechanical or aero
-structure engineers? I want to ask a question about the tail attachment me
chanism.
Before I even mention the question, I want to assure everyone that I AM COM
PLETELY AWARE that there are X thousand Kolbs flying around safely with thi
s stabilizer attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or per
haps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking about is the theoret
ical "correctness" of the design, and whether any other "old-school"
airplane people think that this system is a little wonky.
It took a few moments to finally understand how the mechanism works, and af
ter looking at everything several times it was clear that there is no direc
t structural attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to the
fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load path between the roo
t end of the main stabilizer spar tube and the fuselage is transmitted thro
ugh the elevator hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style extr
uded hinge.
So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root end of the stab
ilizer, it puts all that load through the hinge, into the elevator pivot, a
nd then finally into the steel ring at the back of the fuselage.
But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The larger issue is that
(according to plan) the flat hinge is riveted to the tubes along one thin "
point of contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root stabilizer load is
all acting on a hinge, which itself is cantilevered off of one tangent poin
t on the tube.
Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a mathematician. So I called a
friend of mine who is a retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ yea
rs of experience.
I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was informed that my
concerns about this system were valid. My Kolb will be built with a more s
table attachment.
My question for any real, degreed, qualified, aircraft-experience engineers
is... has anyone looked at the stabilizer root attachment load path and ha
d these same concerns?
ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, and it is not
intended to cause any panic or concern at this point. What I want to know i
s why this load path - through two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a mov
able elevator, and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was
not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the fuselage at the r
ear stabilizer spar.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
=9CBlessed
are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
On Tue, 3/22/16, John Hauck wrote:
" I'll tell you if there was a cheap, reliable, alternate four stroke power plant
for a Kolb aircraft, it would be flying
on a lot of Kolbs and other makes of ULs and home builts. "
That is exactly what Pegasus Air Power is working on with their O-100 engine. 58HP
maximum and at least 50HP continuous, with "Continental aircraft engine" reliability,
and 105 pounds ready to fly. Can use cheap used Continental cylinder
assemblies to save money, or new ones for those who want new. I have seen this
engine run, and I've seen the effort that is being put into the development.
" Some of us have tried to share with you a little of our experience, but it
seems you don't want to hear what we have to say."
Nonsense. Y'all need to remember that there's supposed to be two sides of a discussion,
not one. That's the difference between discussion/debate/brainstorming
and a one-sided lecture or church sermon.
"By now you should recognize there is no elevator hinge problem. "
I recognized then, and now, that the loads on the rear of the stabilizer root are
light on this aircraft, and that these loads are further reduced by the presence
of the brace wires. Considering that the elevator pivot bolt is carried
by a heavy steel ring, it is clear that the elevator pivot bolt, loaded properly
in shear on both sides of the steel ring, is strong enough to carry the elevator
loads and the rear stabilizer attach load. However, the load path between
the elevator pivot bolt and the stabilizer root is compromised by a hinge mounting
design that is questionable.
So I have indeed come to the conclusion that the rear stabilizer root loads are
low enough that they can be carried by the elevator pivot bolt, without a separate
root attach fitting. This heated discussion served to get me fired up enough
to look closely at it, and consider all options instead of just my first
idea. So I have this list to thank for part of it.
Now, as for the hinges themselves, one FINAL time... try to visualize this question:
1) Imagine the front door on your house. The hinges are flat piano hinges, and
they're screwed on to the flat edge of the door and the flat edge of the door
frame.
2) Now imagine a chain link fence post and a chain link gate, which are made out
of round poles that need to be hinged together.
Question 1: Why are the gate hinges are not screwed right onto the tubes like they
are on your front door?
Question 2: Why are the hinges for the round poles a different design than the
flat hinges on your front door?
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Question 1: Why are the gate hinges are not screwed right onto the tubes like they
are on your front door?
Question 2: Why are the hinges for the round poles a different design than the
flat hinges on your front door?
Bill
Bill B/Kolbers:
Never confronted a loose hinge on the elevator, but have experienced the bottom
rudder hinge loosening rivets on my MKIII. The reason is the extreme loads placed
in the area of the rudder horn. Not only is there pressure from the rudder
cables one at a time, but there are times when rudder pedals are overloaded
because of hard landings, crashes, or pure frightening occurrences. It is normal
to push on both pedals when experiencing these events. That really loads
up the bottom hinge on the rudder.
I have seen people bend the hinges to conform to the tube radius. I am sure that
made a stronger connection, but that amount of strength is not needed on the
elevators.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
On Tue, 3/22/16, Stuart Harner wrote:
" One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is the loads carried
by the brace wires. "
Thank you Stuart, this is the missing piece that I did not pay enough attention
to originally.
I had been thinking of the stabilizer root as being much more movable than it actually
is, because I was looking at the root attach fittings without the brace
wires. If there is a brace wire from the fin post down to the rear stabilizer
spar tube, then this wire will resist some of the up-down movement at the rear
of the stabilizer root. As such, the reduction of vertical load/movement at
this location reduces the load on the elevator pivot mechanism. I can now be
a lot more confident in there being additional resistance to vertical movement
of the rear stabilizer spar, and less need for a bolted fitting at that location.
Bill Berle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0(at)gmail.com> |
My 2001 Mk III built by Stephen Green has been purchased by a real gentleman who
lives in Vernon, British Columbia. He plans to put floats on her and fly the
mountain lakes there. The Kolb was picked up yesterday, and will be delivered
by truck to BC later this week.
Please welcome Johnny, when he no doubt joins the group in the near future.
Thanks for all your camaraderie and advice over the years. I'll still be looking
in from time to time, and will visit the Kolb trailer at Sun & Fun next month,
but plan to fly the Piper products belonging to our flying club here at Pompano
for the time being.
Thanks again, and stay safe!
Dave Watkins
Pompano Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454048#454048
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
> On Mar 22, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Bill Berle
wrote:
>
> Also, the hinges themselves are not designed for the loads to be
hanging out 3/8 or 1/2 inch from their attachment, like a diving board.
Bill,
The surest way to compromise the structural integrity of a Kolb Aircraft
is to attempt to fix a structual problem/weakness that does not
actually exist.
Over the years numerous kolb aircraft have experienced catastrophic
violent crashes and not even in a violent crash has one ever documented
a failure of the parts you hope to =9Cimprove=9D.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Forget the !(#$(% hinges guys, like all of you have said over and over and over
they don't fail. Congratulations, nobody has to think any more than that. This
reminds me of the scene in the movie Rain Man where Tom Cruise finally says
"That's all right Raymond, you don't have to answer any more questions."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | sunset at the rock house |
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
flew from Utah to Oregon to help Larry with brakes. saw a nice sunset
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
"This reminds me of the scene in the movie Rain Man where Tom Cruise
finally says "That's all right Raymond, you don't have to answer any more
questions."
Bill, does that mean we are all Savants? You certainly didn't say we were
stupid,right? ROFLMAO!
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gilpin" <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: JC's foldable project... |
How do I add a photo in this list??
JG
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | JC's foldable project... |
| From: | JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com> |
Not sure that I can add a photo in this list. I can't use 'Reply to List'
cause it goes into Windows Live and then a message that something isn't
configured correctly.... So I compose my posts in Gmail like I'm doing
now. I'll try to send a photo. If this works I'll include some details
later.
JG
=8B
=8B=8B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Now that we've got that straight I'll try the engine again.
The HKS 700e is the reliable proven four stroke engine you seek.
Having said that, if you properly care for and feed a Rotax 503 equipped with an
E or C gearbox, it'll be as reliable as any spam can engine out there. It'll
just burn more gas than the HKS.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
> On Mar 23, 2016, at 10:29 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
>
> Forget the !(#$(% hinges guys, like all of you have said over and over and over
they don't fail. Congratulations, nobody has to think any more than that. This
reminds me of the scene in the movie Rain Man where Tom Cruise finally says
"That's all right Raymond, you don't have to answer any more questions."
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mark III sold |
| From: | "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net> |
Watkinsdw wrote:
> My 2001 Mk III built by Stephen Green has been purchased by a real gentleman
who lives in Vernon, British Columbia.
>
> . S . N . I . P .
>
> Thanks again, and stay safe!
> Dave Watkins
> Pompano Beach, FL
Congratulations Dave. Sounds like you found a good home for your "Green Machine".
Saw the MK III when Stephen flew it into the Kolb Farm
Kept hoping I might hit the lottery and could make you an offer, but alas....
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454077#454077
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/arr_sg_gta_054_369.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mark III sold |
| From: | "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for the kind words and the picture, too, George.
I'll add it to my gallery for the moments when I need to reminisce.
My goal was to find her a good home with a competent pilot in a supportive light
aircraft community, who would appreciate her, and the fine craftsmanship of
Stephen Green.
Mission accomplished!
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454079#454079
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
If you don't like having all the hinges on one side, there is an easy fix:
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454080#454080
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050018_medium_336.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Thank you sincerely Richard, that hinge setup in your photo looks a lot more solid
to me. If I were going to use the stock piano hinge I would do it that way
(and feel much better about it than the original plans method). In fact, if there
turns out to be some unforeseen problem with my own proposed hinge method,
I will revert back to the method shown in your photo with piano hinges. At the
very least it balances out the off-axis forces, which is what I was not happy
with in the first place.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/24/16, Richard Pike wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2016, 6:05 AM
"Richard Pike"
If you don't like having all the hinges on one side, there
is an easy fix:
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454080#454080
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050018_medium_336.jpg
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Thank you Dennis, after reading your comments about the HKS, I looked into it a
little, and even found a video of a FireStar in Hawaii flying with the HKS. Can
anyone here verify that an HKS 700E will deliver the same, more, or less thrust
than a comparable "stock" 503 installation? Can anyone here verify from experience
that the HKS has or does not have any specific issues, quirks, etc?
On Thu, 3/24/16, Dennis Rowe wrote:
Now that we've got that straight I'll try the engine again. The HKS 700e is the
reliable proven four stroke engine you
seek.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | JC's foldable project... |
I like it, JG.
Homer designed one tractor. I think I would like a tractor better than
the pusher.
Wing looks similar to Homer's.
What engine are you using?
How much does it weigh?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC Gilpin
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 4:35 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project...
Not sure that I can add a photo in this list. I can't use 'Reply to
List' cause it goes into Windows Live and then a message that something
isn't configured correctly.... So I compose my posts in Gmail like I'm
doing now. I'll try to send a photo. If this works I'll include some
details later.
JG
=8B
=8B=8B
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JC's foldable project... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Lots of questions...hope JG jumps in again with some details...No center
spar...but the dual lift struts follow std ul practice... Looks like a
rotax....? round or square tube for the boom ? aluminum fuselage? wt?
Herb
On 03/24/2016 05:16 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> I like it, JG.
>
> Homer designed one tractor.I think I would like a tractor better than
> the pusher.
>
> Wing looks similar to Homer's.
>
> What engine are you using?
>
> How much does it weigh?
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
> *From:*owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JC Gilpin
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 24, 2016 4:35 AM
> *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: JC's foldable project...
>
> Not sure that I can add a photo in this list. I can't use 'Reply to
> List' cause it goes into Windows Live and then a message that
> something isn't configured correctly.... So I compose my posts in
> Gmail like I'm doing now. I'll try to send a photo. If this works
> I'll include some details later.
>
> JG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: : Re: JC's foldable project... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Lots of questions...hope JG jumps in again with some details...No
center spar...but the dual lift struts follow std ul practice... Looks
like a rotax....? round or square tube for the boom ? aluminum fuselage?
wt? Herb
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
As a retired pastor, one of the things that was supposed to be in my job description
was that of being a peacemaker, and thinking about how this thread has gone,
maybe there is time to still do that. Perhaps if - instead of focusing on
the elevator hinge and associated mechanisms - which has had no known failures
within the experience of this list - we had concerned ourselves with known problems
and failures, our time might have been better spent.
So at the risk of hijacking the thread, I am going to do just that. I will probably
not be able to remember all the Kolb things that have failed over the years,
but I will enumerate all that I can, and if some of you can remember things
that I can't, please add them in.
The forward attachment for the stabilizer: Somebody had one that did not make any
provision to slide fore and aft as the elevator went up and down, and it bent
the 2 stainless L brackets back and forth until they fractured. The front end
of the stab popped up vertical, (!!!) but the pilot was able to maintain control
and land safely.
The Firestar/Firestar II axle fitting. Originally designed for a Part 103 legal
U/L, it was not changed and made it's way into heavier aircraft, where it was
extremely marginal. Kolb now sells an upgrade. If you are flying any sort of
non-103 FS/FSII - buy yourself a pair. Now.
Aileron Flutter. Kolb sells counterbalances. Get you some.
Rudder flutter. Some do, some don't. If you take your feet off the rudder pedals and they start to pulsate, be very careful. Either never take your feet off the rudder pedals, or make yourself a counterbalance. Something sort of like this: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg6.htm
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or Firestar
II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know about doing it
to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you know.
Full flaps on the MKIII with forward CG: If you have a heavy passenger and full
flaps, you can run out of elevator authority in the flare, especially if you
are slow and carrying any power. Gap sealing the elevator to the horizontal stab
and adding VG's to the underside of the horizontal stab helps a lot.
Before we put the 582 on FSII N582EF, Kolb expressed concern that the upper fuselage
structure was not designed for that much torque, and were concerned that
at full throttle and encountering a big thermal might cause the upper rear spar
structure to twist itself into really nasty shapes. If you are thinking of
going big, beef up that area.
Front spar collapse: John Hauck posted some really freaky pictures of what happened
to his front spar when the forward part of the ribs failed in compression,
and brought him down under silk. Make sure that your leading edge cannot move
or displace under any circumstances.
Twinstar MKII: I have seen one of them break the boom tube right at the end of
the fuselage cage because the H insert was not properly installed. Inspect carefully.
MKIII spar bolt: A MKIII was lost w/fatality because the 1/2" bolt that goes through
the main spar into the lift strut fitting was omitted, and the bracket was
attached only by the pop rivets that held it in place prior to bolt insertion.
Breakage of the lower vertical fin post: Racking the tail wheel around on rough
ground puts huge side loads on the lower steel post of the vertical stabilizer,
John Hauck broke his. It is wise to add braces from the lower part of that
post to the steel ring that fits into the rear of the fuselage tube to strengthen
it.
It's now 11:35, and that's all I can remember; I'm sure the rest of you guys can
add to this list. Once the list becomes comprehensive, maybe it ought to be
made into an unofficial AD Notice list and made into a sticky?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454106#454106
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the conclusion that if
he looked in the mirror he would see the "bully" that he was describing. I
guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet Pilot. :-/ I guess I prefer
do'ers rather than talkers. I probably spent too many years as a cop, and
my belief in my fellow man was most likely stunted. :-)
I shall wait with interest, and hope for the best.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Oh my goodness....
On Thu, 3/24/16, Larry Cottrell wrote:
I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the conclusion that if he looked
in the mirror he would see the "bully" that he was
describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet Pilot. :-/ I guess I prefer
do'ers rather than talkers. I probably spent too many years as a cop, and
my belief in my fellow man was most likely stunted. :-) I shall wait with interest,
and hope for the best.Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Richard,
re your first item on the list.
I had a few flights, always solo in my new Xtra. One notch flap for take off
solo and `knew` the trim position. First heavy passenger, first notch of
flap, same automatic set of trim position. Open throttle, tail up, speed
build up a little slow, no problem, plenty of room. She didn`t lift off. Bit
of back stick. Still firmly on the ground. Speed still building with me
pulling harder and harder. Just crept into the air and squeaked over the
hedge. The passenger never knew there was a problem. I adjusted the trim
next time and everything was fine but I was astounded how immovable the
stick was when I was fighting the out of position trim.
This was the first tip I passed on to the new owned when I finally sold her.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Pike
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 3:46 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
As a retired pastor, one of the things that was supposed to be in my job
description was that of being a peacemaker, and thinking about how this
thread has gone, maybe there is time to still do that. Perhaps if - instead
of focusing on the elevator hinge and associated mechanisms - which has had
no known failures within the experience of this list - we had concerned
ourselves with known problems and failures, our time might have been better
spent.
So at the risk of hijacking the thread, I am going to do just that. I will
probably not be able to remember all the Kolb things that have failed over
the years, but I will enumerate all that I can, and if some of you can
remember things that I can't, please add them in.
The forward attachment for the stabilizer: Somebody had one that did not
make any provision to slide fore and aft as the elevator went up and down,
and it bent the 2 stainless L brackets back and forth until they fractured.
The front end of the stab popped up vertical, (!!!) but the pilot was able
to maintain control and land safely.
The Firestar/Firestar II axle fitting. Originally designed for a Part 103
legal U/L, it was not changed and made it's way into heavier aircraft, where
it was extremely marginal. Kolb now sells an upgrade. If you are flying any
sort of non-103 FS/FSII - buy yourself a pair. Now.
Aileron Flutter. Kolb sells counterbalances. Get you some.
Rudder flutter. Some do, some don't. If you take your feet off the rudder
pedals and they start to pulsate, be very careful. Either never take your
feet off the rudder pedals, or make yourself a counterbalance. Something
sort of like this: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg6.htm
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or
Firestar II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know
about doing it to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you know.
Full flaps on the MKIII with forward CG: If you have a heavy passenger and
full flaps, you can run out of elevator authority in the flare, especially
if you are slow and carrying any power. Gap sealing the elevator to the
horizontal stab and adding VG's to the underside of the horizontal stab
helps a lot.
Before we put the 582 on FSII N582EF, Kolb expressed concern that the upper
fuselage structure was not designed for that much torque, and were concerned
that at full throttle and encountering a big thermal might cause the upper
rear spar structure to twist itself into really nasty shapes. If you are
thinking of going big, beef up that area.
Front spar collapse: John Hauck posted some really freaky pictures of what
happened to his front spar when the forward part of the ribs failed in
compression, and brought him down under silk. Make sure that your leading
edge cannot move or displace under any circumstances.
Twinstar MKII: I have seen one of them break the boom tube right at the end
of the fuselage cage because the H insert was not properly installed.
Inspect carefully.
MKIII spar bolt: A MKIII was lost w/fatality because the 1/2" bolt that goes
through the main spar into the lift strut fitting was omitted, and the
bracket was attached only by the pop rivets that held it in place prior to
bolt insertion.
Breakage of the lower vertical fin post: Racking the tail wheel around on
rough ground puts huge side loads on the lower steel post of the vertical
stabilizer, John Hauck broke his. It is wise to add braces from the lower
part of that post to the steel ring that fits into the rear of the fuselage
tube to strengthen it.
It's now 11:35, and that's all I can remember; I'm sure the rest of you guys
can add to this list. Once the list becomes comprehensive, maybe it ought to
be made into an unofficial AD Notice list and made into a sticky?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454106#454106
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at
criticism of the Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin
to a guy in a tailored suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking
into a biker bar!! Saying something such as "could I have a glass of
water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just
shown...were he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he
would have been making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of
times...was that ...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember
him looking at the Firestar 1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure
does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Patrick Ladd
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Richard,
re your first item on the list.
I had a few flights, always solo in my new Xtra. One notch
flap for take off solo and `knew` the trim position. First
heavy passenger, first notch of flap, same automatic set of
trim position. Open throttle, tail up, speed build up a
little slow, no problem, plenty of room. She didn`t lift
off. Bit of back stick. Still firmly on the ground. Speed
still building with me pulling harder and harder. Just crept
into the air and squeaked over the hedge. The passenger
never knew there was a problem. I adjusted the trim next
time and everything was fine but I was astounded how
immovable the stick was when I was fighting the out of
position trim.
This was the first tip I passed on to the new owned when I
finally sold her.
Pat
Patrick L/Kolbers:
I discovered during the early flight hours of the newest
model MKIII a similar problem when I attempted to fly a 250+
lb passenger at Sun and Fun. During testing at the Kolb
Company in London, KY, the only passenger I flew was Dennis,
the welder, who weighs 150 lbs approximately. Flying Dennis
required a lot of aft stick to get airborne. I was a little
concerned with the heavier passenger. I briefed him prior
to take off, if we were not airborne by midfield, I'd abort
the takeoff. Midfield, stick all the way back, no fly. I
aborted.
When I built my MKIII in 1992, I knew from flying the
factory MKIII there was a lot of stress on the up elevator
cable and practically none of the down elevator cable. I
chose to go with an 1/8th inch up cable and left the down
cable at 3/32 as called for in the instructions. Flying
heavy passengers in my MKIII was never a problem. Then the
light bulb lit, and I realized the up elevator cable on the
factory MKIII was stretching and the elevator was not
responding to my input. Recommended they replace the 3/32
with 1/8 inch cable. Problem solved.
Patrick probably had 3/32 cable on his MKIII, but I don't
know for sure. Taking off with flaps drooped puts more
stress on the up elevator cable.
I adjust my elevator cables tight. To test if they are
tight enough I have someone hold the elevator while I push
and pull the stick. I don't want any play between the
elevator and the stick. Loose elevator cables make for
sloppy control feel and flying.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut Knolls
Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins criticizing "our"
aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying is unsafe. It is especially
annoying when the criticizer has no hands on experience with our airplanes
and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've spent
a lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the last 32 years.
I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and fly them. We are
different from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage when someone, especially
someone I do not know, begins tearing my airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a little note
of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly, and what I like
to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed it. I've been on the
road for a few days and haven't been up to date on my email. Right now I don't
know this guy other than the fact he has a Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at criticism of the
Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin to a guy in a tailored
suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking into a biker bar!! Saying
something such as "could I have a glass of water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just shown...were
he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he would have been
making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was that
...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking at the Firestar
1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or
Firestar II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know
about doing it to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you know.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When I rebuilt my mkiii I doubled the dihedral. I went from negative to
neutral roll stability... I think if I had increased a bit more that I
would have ended up with positive roll stability. Mbg,, my best guess..
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Kolbers:
The only reason Homer put any dihedral in the Kolb wings was to prevent
the wings from looking like they were drooping when the aircraft was
sitting on the ground. He would have used zero dihedral because he
preferred getting more performance than stability.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or
Firestar II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know
about doing it to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you
know.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When I rebuilt my mkiii I doubled the dihedral. I went from negative to
neutral roll stability... I think if I had increased a bit more that I
would have ended up with positive roll stability. Mbg,, my best
guess..
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 3/25/2016 12:22 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the conclusion that
> if he looked in the mirror he would see the "bully" that he was
> describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet Pilot. :-/ I
> guess I prefer do'ers rather than talkers. I probably spent too many
> years as a cop, and my belief in my fellow man was most likely
> stunted. :-)
> I shall wait with interest, and hope for the best.
> Larry
Who and what are you talking about? For those of use who get individual
emails from the list, what you see above is all we see when you post a
message like this. Are you talking about one of the people that
responded to Bill Berle's questions? Because that could be any of a
number of responders.
In the context of the elevator/stabilizer discussion:
As a somewhat disinterested observer (mostly lurking here because I
would like to own a Kolb in the future), I'd have to say that most of
the responses to Bill Berle's questions have been, well, more like
watching the current presidential debates than reasoned,
scientific/engineering based answers. Most have, at least in spirit,
accused Bill of being a communist fascist atheist muslim terrorist for
even suggesting that anything Homer designed might be less than perfect.
All he really asked for is an explanation of why a particular mechanism
was designed the way it was. It should have been easy enough to simply
say something like, 'Every design is a compromise, and it was done that
way because it's strong enough to be safe, and allows a simple
implementation of another feature (like folding the tail).' Instead,
because no one seems to know the answer, the questioner was attacked for
asking a legitimate question about a design point that is apparently
outside common engineering practice.
I'd like to commend Bill for maintaining a thick skin and sticking
around after all the attacks. Most would have given up and gone
elsewhere for answers. Which, Bill, you'll probably need to do, since
all that's available here is a religious devotion to Homer and his
preaching. :-)
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Swan <arksey(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
I was there when Homer made that statement.........
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut Knolls
Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins criticizing "our"
aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying is unsafe. It is especially
annoying when the criticizer has no hands on experience with our airplanes
and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've spent
a lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the last 32 years.
I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and fly them. We are
different from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage when someone, especially
someone I do not know, begins tearing my airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a little note
of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly, and what I like
to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed it. I've been on the
road for a few days and haven't been up to date on my email. Right now I don't
know this guy other than the fact he has a Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at criticism of the
Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin to a guy in a tailored
suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking into a biker bar!! Saying
something such as "could I have a glass of water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just shown...were
he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he would have been
making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was that
...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking at the Firestar
1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
Thank you for the kind words Charlie, pardon me for taking so long to reply but
I'm trying to pry this big black hat off my head.
I have a thick enough skin to be here, and take whatever anyone can dish out. I
can dish it out pretty well too, except that I can already tell that "respectful
but spirited debate" is not on the menu here.
Per Mr. Hauck's comment, I would have posted a bio here, but some of the people
might have seen it as boastful, and some others might have seen it as irrelevant
to the Kolb, and others surely might have seen it as "posturing" and "posing"
to substitute for actual technical ability. But since someone asked, my aviation
mini-bio is this:
Powered aircraft owned and flown:
4 Taylorcrafts (3 American, 1 British "Auster")
Piper J-3-75 Cub
Grumman AA-1-150 Yankee
Van's RV-3A
Cassutt IIM Formula One race aircraft (#81 "BooRay")
1956 "Straight Tail" Cessna 172 (current)
Powered aircraft competition results:
5th Place F-1 Silver, Reno National Championship Air Races 1988
Racing Sailplanes owned and flown:
Schempp-Hirth HS-7 Mini-Nimbus"
Schleicher AS-W20
Schleicher AS-W20BL
Schempp-Hirth Ventus B 16.6
Sailplane competition results (national level only) Contest Number "VB":
FAI US National Speed Record 500KM out & return speed 15 Meter Class 1984
FAI US National Speed Record 500KM out & return speed Open Class, 1984
9th Place, US National Sports Class Soaring Championships, Minden NV 1986
FAI Soaring Achievement Badges A, B, C, Silver C, Gold C, Diamond C
First Solo 12-30-1977 (Cessna 152, KSMO)
FAA Ratings: Private Pilot Airplane, Private Pilot Glider (Aero-Tow only)
Total Hours PIC: Approx 1800
Formal Aircraft Technical Training:
2.5 Year Course Completion, Los Angeles Trade Tech College, Airframe and Powerplant
Mechanics, 1983
Federal Aviation Administration Aircraft Design / Modification Approvals:
FAA-STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) SA02246LA "EZ Flap" www.ezflaphandle.com
FAA-PMA (Parts Manufacturing Manufacturing Approval) for above STC
As for the points mentioned in several other posts on this list, I would like to
mention a few things... I chose to look for a Kolb kit in the first place because
I was impressed with many of the design choices made by Mr. Kolb, and specifically
that it had a good reputation for safety and flying qualities.
The Kolb design was upgraded and modernized several times by Mr. Kolb and the Kolb
company, complete with modifications, changes, fine-tuning, and other things.
It is clear that these changes were done for several reasons, including improved
safety, durability, higher performance, lower risk, ease of manufacturing,
and cost of manufacturing. Just like every other aircraft manufacturer from
Boeing to Grumman to Van's to RANS to Piper to Aeronca.
And every single airplane ever produced has some shortcoming or compromise that
MAY benefit from being tweaked a little. A lot of the time people's ideas are
quickly shown to not make any improvements. Occasionally there will be some improvement.
Burt Rutan's name was mentioned by myself and others. He has always
said that his success was because he was willing to try new things, and do weird
stuff to see if it worked. I may not be as smart as he is, but I'm smart
enough to watch how he thinks and dare to try something new like he did.
It's completely irrelevant to Kolb elevator hinges, but I invented a safety/performance
modification for airplanes that everyone said was not necessary ("Cessna
did it just fine, son"). The treatment that I received on the internet lists
and forums makes this place look like a luxury spa. So far, I have over 300
of these modifications sold around the world, and have maintained a 96% customer
satisfaction rate.
Among several other reasons, I came to the Kolb list with a desire to discuss ideas
and "brainstorm" with others about making a good airplane better. I never
expected there to be such a large gap between the brains and the storm :)
Charlie thanks again for standing up for me, not only for me personally but for
anyone else who may be easier to keel-haul than me.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, Charlie England wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, March 25, 2016, 8:17 AM
Charlie England
On 3/25/2016 12:22 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the
conclusion that
> if he looked in the mirror he would see the "bully"
that he was
> describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet
Pilot. :-/ I
> guess I prefer do'ers rather than talkers. I probably
spent too many
> years as a cop, and my belief in my fellow man was most
likely
> stunted. :-)
> I shall wait with interest, and hope for the best.
> Larry
Who and what are you talking about? For those of use who get
individual
emails from the list, what you see above is all we see when
you post a
message like this. Are you talking about one of the people
that
responded to Bill Berle's questions? Because that could be
any of a
number of responders.
In the context of the elevator/stabilizer discussion:
As a somewhat disinterested observer (mostly lurking here
because I
would like to own a Kolb in the future), I'd have to say
that most of
the responses to Bill Berle's questions have been, well,
more like
watching the current presidential debates than reasoned,
scientific/engineering based answers. Most have, at least in
spirit,
accused Bill of being a communist fascist atheist muslim
terrorist for
even suggesting that anything Homer designed might be less
than perfect.
All he really asked for is an explanation of why a
particular mechanism
was designed the way it was. It should have been easy enough
to simply
say something like, 'Every design is a compromise, and it
was done that
way because it's strong enough to be safe, and allows a
simple
implementation of another feature (like folding the tail).'
Instead,
because no one seems to know the answer, the questioner was
attacked for
asking a legitimate question about a design point that
is apparently
outside common engineering practice.
I'd like to commend Bill for maintaining a thick skin and
sticking
around after all the attacks. Most would have given up and
gone
elsewhere for answers. Which, Bill, you'll probably need to
do, since
all that's available here is a religious devotion to Homer
and his
preaching. :-)
Charlie
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com> |
I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and was in project, design, R & D, and
Mgt. for about 40 years. I am a firm believer in that "If its not broke don't
screw with it." If you look at a completed Kolb Mk III tail and visualize
the loads it is apparent (at least to me), that the hinges should not be a problem.
Many flight hours have proven that out.
Having said that I didn't have any problem with Bill's questions. He noticed something
that concerned him (right or wrong) and questioned it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454141#454141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
Hi Jim S:
Long time.
Are you still flying the FS?
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Swan
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's
play ground is it anyway!!
I was there when Homer made that statement.........
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's
play ground is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut
Knolls Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins
criticizing "our" aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying
is unsafe. It is especially annoying when the criticizer has no hands on
experience with our airplanes and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've
spent a lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the
last 32 years. I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and
fly them. We are different from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage
when someone, especially someone I do not know, begins tearing my
airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a
little note of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly,
and what I like to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed
it. I've been on the road for a few days and haven't been up to date on
my email. Right now I don't know this guy other than the fact he has a
Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's
play ground is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at
criticism of the Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin
to a guy in a tailored suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking
into a biker bar!! Saying something such as "could I have a glass of
water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just
shown...were he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he
would have been making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was
that ...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking
at the Firestar 1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does
vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Swan <arksey(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
Hello John H.,
yes I am still flying the FS and enjoying it...sure a fun airplane and cheap
to operate.....at my age I have to be a bit more careful with my concentration....and
pre flight....I don't wander far from home, but visit some of the local
people I know...will soon get the F.S. out and give it a good cleaning also
need to do some service work on it.....I seem to just want to fly it and let
the work part go...also at my age I am glad that I only have a single place....I
don't think a person would have real good judgement to ride with me and yet
some still want to and I would have a hard time turning them down..I should have
kept tract of how many people I gave their lst ride in a plane.......if I
was younger I would be all for flying and a camping....the Kolb would be a fun
plane to do it with........as you well know.....
J. Swan
Eaton Rapids, Michigan
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 3:47 pm
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
Hi Jim S:
Long time.
Are you still flying the FS?
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Swan
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
I was there when Homer made that statement.........
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut Knolls
Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins criticizing "our"
aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying is unsafe. It is especially
annoying when the criticizer has no hands on experience with our airplanes
and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've spent a
lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the last 32 years.
I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and fly them. We are different
from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage when someone, especially someone
I do not know, begins tearing my airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a little note
of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly, and what I like
to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed it. I've been on the road
for a few days and haven't been up to date on my email. Right now I don't know
this guy other than the fact he has a Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at criticism of the
Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin to a guy in a tailored
suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking into a biker bar!! Saying something
such as "could I have a glass of water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just shown...were
he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he would have been
making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was that ...he
was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking at the Firestar
1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
Kolb List..... I am a lurker that is in a holding pattern over a possible future
purchase of a Kolb Firestar II.... I have heard nothing but good and here I
go.....
I am going to open up another can of worms....the tail seems fine to me but it
is those little u-joint attachments of the wings that make me nervous..the wing
attachment is as Bill called the tail a little "wonky" but far be it from me
as I am a current quicksilver sport 2s owner and know only what little i have
read and seen with my own eyes...never gave the tail much thought but the folding
wings I have had more than a passing thought about.... Now all of you guys
can give me hell and rightly so because I truly know very little about the
machine other than it has REALLY intrigued me ever since I saw my first KOLB at
Oshkosh in 1991 and I was in awe of its performance.....never saw anything that
took off like the kolb short of a helicopter.... Please guys know I am not
bad mouthing the design or the aircraft or Mr. Kolb... I just don't know enough
about the design of the wing folding mechanism/attachment and the unknown can
sometimes lead to fear for no reason...
Thanks
Larry
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:
> Understood, but in this case the person in question is sharp as a tack. It's
MY cognitive acuity that is suspect !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 3/21/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
> To: "Kolb list"
> Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 3:13 PM
>
>
> On Mar 21,
> 2016, at 1:55 PM, Bill Berle
> wrote:
> So I called a friend of mine who is a
> retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of
> experience.
> LOL
> The cognitive acuity of anyone with
> 50+ years of experience should probably be
> suspect.Trust me, I have
> 50+ years of experience. ;)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454149#454149
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
| Subject: | Hinges, additional thoughts |
Guys,
The discussion about elevator hinges and how they are mounted got me to
thinking.
When two surfaces are held together with a bolt, you torque that bolt to
"preload" the joint. I know it took me a while to understand this and read
about it somewhere. I looked in my copy of AC 43.13 but it was not there.
Perhaps one of the Tony Bingelis books, Experimenter or Kitplanes, I just
don't remember for sure.
The rest of this is from my memory banks such as they are. And I am still
not an engineer but this is fun to think about. J
Anyway, the point is that if a bolt exerts 10 pounds of compression force to
the two plates, any load on the plates that is less than 10 pounds will not
be "seen" by the bolt. Pull on one plate with 9 pounds of force and the
other plate moves with it and the bolt is still stressed at 10 pounds. But
if you put 11 pounds of force on one of the plates the bolt now experiences
11 pounds of stress. If the bolt can't take 11 pounds, it either fails or
stretches enough to allow the plates to move because there is no more force
between them. Trouble begins when the bolt is either not torqued properly or
the forces on it exceed its limits.
For our Kolb hinges, substitute stainless steel pop rivets for bolts. The
principals of mechanical attachment of two plates still hold even if one of
the plates has a radius and one does not. As long as the forces on the joint
do not exceed the preload forces exerted by the rivets, there will be no
movement of the joint. For all practical purposes the joint acts as a solid
structure.
Now the question becomes what forces are seen by the rivet in question?
First one must determine the force exerted at the hinge pin and then
multiply by the moment arm (distance from pin center to rivet center. Then
divide by the number of rivets. I don't have the data on how much force is
applied to the hinge pin and I do not know the clamping force or limits of
the rivets.
It would take some detailed analysis of the forces to see what is at the
hinge pin and what direction they are going.
I must admit when I first saw a flat hinge riveted to a round tube I raised
an eyebrow because it is not something you usually see. My Firefly was a
quick build kit so Bryan had already installed the hinges with temporary
aluminum rivets. After installing all the rivets on final assembly and
seeing how well everything was tied together I forgot all about it.
Now, having said all of that, I think there is a way to get more strength
out of that hinge to tube joint. Put an arc into the leaves of the hinge
with a radius that matches the tube it will be connected to. This could
probably be done with some pipe and a bench vice. Once the two surfaces have
more contact area, you could then stagger the rivets into two rows. This
would have the benefit of putting the holes farther apart from each other
and out of alignment with the adjacent hole, thus distributing the stresses
into the parts more evenly. It might even look a little nicer on the
finished product. You would have to be careful to not get the rivet holes
too close to the edges of the hinge leaf. If that were a problem you could
go with a slightly larger hinge.
Another option would be to run a full length hinge from root to outer tip of
the elevator. More strength, more rivets and a built in gap seal.
Downsides of all this are more complex, more work and possibly more weight.
Overall not a bad mental exercise and a good topic for those days at the
hangar when the weather keeps you and your friends on the ground.
In practicality, since there are no known reports of failures relating to
the elevator hinges it is fairly safe to say there is no reason to change
the design.
Pre-flight inspection of all hinges on the aircraft control surfaces was one
of the first things I learned as a student pilot. Eyeball every pin and
safety device, wiggle, rotate and pull to check for tightness. I still do
this on every flight (Thank you Mr. Thomas) so if there were ever a problem
develop I am sure to catch it on the ground. Something like this should
never be discovered at an annual inspection if you are doing proper
pre-flights. So, if my Kolb ever develops a loose hinge to tube joint I
might have to consider one of the options outlined above.
In the meantime:
Build (it was a lot of fun and easy)
Fly (still learning something every flight)
Enjoy!
Just my $.02 worth offered with a $.02 instant rebate.
Stuart
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
The wing fold thing is the coolest part of a Kolb.
When you see one being folded it explains itself.
The U-joint is made of steel and is absolutely solid when the wing is pinned
into place. The build tolerances were so good on mine that the powder coat
interfered with the fit. Tight is good, loose is not. :)
If you get back to OSH stop at the Kolb booth and watch it in action. You
will be impressed.
The ability to easily and quickly fold was essential to me. I don't worry
about that part at all!
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of w0odi
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 4:36 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Kolb List..... I am a lurker that is in a holding pattern over a possible
future purchase of a Kolb Firestar II.... I have heard nothing but good and
here I go.....
I am going to open up another can of worms....the tail seems fine to me but
it is those little u-joint attachments of the wings that make me
nervous..the wing attachment is as Bill called the tail a little "wonky"
but far be it from me as I am a current quicksilver sport 2s owner and know
only what little i have read and seen with my own eyes...never gave the tail
much thought but the folding wings I have had more than a passing thought
about.... Now all of you guys can give me hell and rightly so because I
truly know very little about the machine other than it has REALLY intrigued
me ever since I saw my first KOLB at Oshkosh in 1991 and I was in awe of its
performance.....never saw anything that took off like the kolb short of a
helicopter.... Please guys know I am not bad mouthing the design or the
aircraft or Mr. Kolb... I just don't know enough about the design of the
wing folding mechanism/attachment and the unknown can sometimes lead to fear
for no reason...
Thanks
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Let me be the first... the wing rear hinge looks to be pretty well designed to
me. The majority of the flight loads are taken by the massive main spar, in this
case including most of the torsional loads.. The drag / anti-drag loads, and
fixing the wing angle of incidence (wing mounting angle) are the only significant
loads on the rear attach. Built per the plans it looks perfectly good for
an aircraft witth his weight/speed/load
Make no mistake, the people here who lit a fire under me (for asking a question
they didn't like) were 100% correct in saying that the fleet safety history of
the Kolb is high. My poking back at them was limited to the hinge and elevator
pivot, which once again has a very low if any failure rate.
The fact that I might want to ask a few pointed questions does not mean that the
airplane is unsafe. The problem over my questions was a technical, even academic
one. I sand by the question, but the reason things got out of hand is because
nobody was able to answer the specific "design practice" aspect of the hinge....
not that the hinge was or was not shown to be unsafe.
>From all the research I've done, I decided to go look for a Kolb FireStar and
get one. For whatever it is worth I will highly recommend the FireStar, even
before I have flown one.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, w0odi wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, March 25, 2016, 2:36 PM
"w0odi"
Kolb List..... I am a lurker that is in a holding pattern
over a possible future purchase of a Kolb Firestar II.... I
have heard nothing but good and here I go.....
I am going to open up another can of worms....the tail seems
fine to me but it is those little u-joint attachments of the
wings that make me nervous..the wing attachment is as Bill
called the tail a little "wonky" but far be it from me
as I am a current quicksilver sport 2s owner and know only
what little i have read and seen with my own eyes...never
gave the tail much thought but the folding wings I have had
more than a passing thought about.... Now all of you guys
can give me hell and rightly so because I truly know very
little about the machine other than it has REALLY intrigued
me ever since I saw my first KOLB at Oshkosh in 1991 and I
was in awe of its performance.....never saw anything that
took off like the kolb short of a helicopter.... Please guys
know I am not bad mouthing the design or the aircraft or Mr.
Kolb... I just don't know enough about the design of the
wing folding mechanism/attachment and the unknown can
sometimes lead to fear for no reason...
Thanks
Larry
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:
> Understood, but in this case the person in question is
sharp as a tack. It's MY cognitive acuity that is suspect !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance
upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning
proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 3/21/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
> To: "Kolb list"
> Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 3:13 PM
>
>
> On Mar 21,
> 2016, at 1:55 PM, Bill Berle
> wrote:
> So I called a friend of mine who is a
> retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+
years of
> experience.
> LOL
> The cognitive acuity of anyone with
> 50+ years of experience should probably be
> suspect.Trust me, I have
> 50+ years of experience. ;)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454149#454149
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinges, additional thoughts |
THAT is precisely the type of discussion and communication that I was looking for
when all of this started. THAT is the two-way exchange of information which
should be encouraged on all type-specific forums. THAT is what should prevail
over ruffled feathers and bruised egos.
Bravo.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, Stuart Harner wrote:
Guys, The discussion about elevator hinges and how they are mounted got me to
thinking. When two surfaces are held
together with a bolt, you torque that bolt to preload the joint. I know it took
me a while
to understand this and read about it somewhere. I looked in
my copy of AC 43.13 but it was not there. Perhaps one of the
Tony Bingelis books, Experimenter or Kitplanes, I just
dont remember for sure. The rest of this is from my
memory banks such as they are. And I am still not an
engineer but this is fun to think about. J Anyway, the point is that if
a bolt exerts 10 pounds of compression force to the two
plates, any load on the plates that is less than 10 pounds
will not be seen by the bolt. Pull on one
plate with 9 pounds of force and the other plate moves with
it and the bolt is still stressed at 10 pounds. But if you
put 11 pounds of force on one of the plates the bolt now
experiences 11 pounds of stress. If the bolt cant
take 11 pounds, it either fails or stretches enough to allow
the plates to move because there is no more force between
them. Trouble begins when the bolt is either not torqued
properly or the forces on it exceed its limits. For our Kolb hinges,
substitute stainless steel pop rivets for bolts. The
principals of mechanical attachment of two plates still hold
even if one of the plates has a radius and one does not. As
long as the forces on the joint do not exceed the preload
forces exerted by the rivets, there will be no movement of
the joint. For all practical purposes the joint acts as a
solid structure.
Now the question
becomes what forces are seen by the rivet in question? First one must determine
the
force exerted at the hinge pin and then multiply by the
moment arm (distance from pin center to rivet center. Then
divide by the number of rivets. I dont have the data
on how much force is applied to the hinge pin and I do not
know the clamping force or limits of the rivets. It would take some detailed
analysis of the forces to see what is at the hinge pin and
what direction they are going. I must admit when I first saw
a flat hinge riveted to a round tube I raised an eyebrow
because it is not something you usually see. My Firefly was
a quick build kit so Bryan had already installed the hinges
with temporary aluminum rivets. After installing all the
rivets on final assembly and seeing how well everything was
tied together I forgot all about it. Now, having said all of that,
I think there is a way to get more strength out of that
hinge to tube joint. Put an arc into the leaves of the hinge
with a radius that matches the tube it will be connected to.
This could probably be done with some pipe and a bench vice.
Once the two surfaces have more contact area, you could then
stagger the rivets into two rows. This would have the
benefit of putting the holes farther apart from each other
and out of alignment with the adjacent hole, thus
distributing the stresses into the parts more evenly. It
might even look a little nicer on the finished product. You
would have to be careful to not get the rivet holes too
close to the edges of the hinge leaf. If that were a problem
you could go with a slightly larger hinge. Another option would be to
run a full length hinge from root to outer tip of the
elevator. More strength, more rivets and a built in gap
seal. Downsides of all this are
more complex, more work and possibly more weight. Overall not a bad mental
exercise and a good topic for those days at the hangar when
the weather keeps you and your friends on the ground. In practicality, since there
are no known reports of failures relating to the elevator
hinges it is fairly safe to say there is no reason to change
the design.
Pre-flight
inspection of all hinges on the aircraft control surfaces
was one of the first things I learned as a student pilot.
Eyeball every pin and safety device, wiggle, rotate and pull
to check for tightness. I still do this on every
flight (Thank you Mr. Thomas) so if there were ever a
problem develop I am sure to catch it on the ground.
Something like this should never be discovered at an annual
inspection if you are doing proper pre-flights. So, if my
Kolb ever develops a loose hinge to tube joint I might have
to consider one of the options outlined above. In the meantime:Build (it was
a lot of fun
and easy)Fly (still
learning something every flight)Enjoy! Just my $.02 worth
offered with a $.02 instant rebate. Stuart
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Stuart...... I would love to go to Oshkosh again....... but not sure my
legs and back could take all that walking and they won't let me bring my atv...lol
Maybe the rules have changed since I was there... :)
I have seen one kolb up close and personal since Oshkosh 91 and that was last April
and it was an immaculate machine...This was prior to my purchase of my Sport
2 S.... It was like a brand new machine had maybe 150 hours and is 2006 he
demoed the Firestar II and it looked like it ran and flew great I was just a
little concerned about the attachment....just being a worry wart I guess...
At the time I was thinkingI needed a 2 place but now I am wondering if that was
a good ideaI have lots of folks wanting rides yet I am not ready since i have
so little time in the machine..... I would feel like I am really responsible
if I were to take someone for a ride... let alone my own well being.. But that
is off topic. I feel better after hearing from you about the attachment..
I am seriously thinking about selling the sport and getting a Firestar... The record
speaks for the brand.... not that there is anything wrong with the Quicksilver
just have a desire for the Kolb and a single seat..
.. thanks for letting me comment on this subject and thanks to anyone else who
answers...
Larry
stuart(at)harnerfarm.net wrote:
> The wing fold thing is the coolest part of a Kolb.
>
> When you see one being folded it explains itself.
>
> The U-joint is made of steel and is absolutely solid when the wing is pinned
> into place. The build tolerances were so good on mine that the powder coat
> interfered with the fit. Tight is good, loose is not. :)
>
> If you get back to OSH stop at the Kolb booth and watch it in action. You
> will be impressed.
>
> The ability to easily and quickly fold was essential to me. I don't worry
> about that part at all!
>
> Stuart
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454155#454155
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
The Firefly was my choice since I wanted to get away from everything FAA and
just fly for fun. Don't need to go anywhere, don't fly very often but sure
have fun when I do. Others have different motivations and choose
accordingly.
Made the decision to purchase a quick build at OSH 2013. Kit was delivered
just before Christmas. Spent a lot of time at the Kolb booth in both 2014
and 2015. I hang out in the ultralight area most of the time anyway. The
Kolb people are really gracious and put up with me. There is always shade on
one side of the trailer!
You can see more about my Firefly here:
http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/serenity.html
There is a hidden page about my camper turned hangar here:
http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/hangar.html
I still need to put up some more pictures and descriptions and then build a
link on the main page. What is not shown yet is the fold down door/ramp and
how the folded Firefly fits inside. (I really need to get caught up on my
web work.) :(
Still many more things to do and the search for a private strip to fly off
of that is closer than the 25 mile away airport continues...
Feel free to ask questions anytime.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of w0odi
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 5:55 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Swivel
Thanks Stuart...... I would love to go to Oshkosh again....... but not sure
my legs and back could take all that walking and they won't let me bring my
atv...lol Maybe the rules have changed since I was there... :)
I have seen one kolb up close and personal since Oshkosh 91 and that was
last April and it was an immaculate machine...This was prior to my purchase
of my Sport 2 S.... It was like a brand new machine had maybe 150 hours and
is 2006 he demoed the Firestar II and it looked like it ran and flew great I
was just a little concerned about the attachment....just being a worry wart
I guess...
At the time I was thinkingI needed a 2 place but now I am wondering if that
was a good ideaI have lots of folks wanting rides yet I am not ready since i
have so little time in the machine..... I would feel like I am really
responsible if I were to take someone for a ride... let alone my own well
being.. But that is off topic. I feel better after hearing from you about
the attachment..
I am seriously thinking about selling the sport and getting a Firestar...
The record speaks for the brand.... not that there is anything wrong with
the Quicksilver just have a desire for the Kolb and a single seat..
.. thanks for letting me comment on this subject and thanks to anyone else
who answers...
Larry
stuart(at)harnerfarm.net wrote:
> The wing fold thing is the coolest part of a Kolb.
>
> When you see one being folded it explains itself.
>
> The U-joint is made of steel and is absolutely solid when the wing is
> pinned into place. The build tolerances were so good on mine that the
> powder coat interfered with the fit. Tight is good, loose is not. :)
>
> If you get back to OSH stop at the Kolb booth and watch it in action.
> You will be impressed.
>
> The ability to easily and quickly fold was essential to me. I don't
> worry about that part at all!
>
> Stuart
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454155#454155
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com> |
Larry,
The last time I was at Oshkosh they had battery powered chairs for rent at the
entrance. They claimed they would last all day. Don't remember how much they
were.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454177#454177
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
Stuart thanks for the info and website.....I had stumbled across it back when trying
to make up my mind about what to buy.... I hope to go to Oshkosh again maybe
this year who knows....
Rex I see you are from Galena, MO I am from Mountain View, MO thanks for the info
on the elec chairs.... I'm not that bad yet.... and yes I would most likely
spend most of my time in the ultralight area but I loved the flea market part
to.....My brother and I finally wised up and waited on the trams to pick us up
sure saved lots of steps...... I would pretty much have no choice now... gonna
be 59 this year so I don't walk as far as I used to.
Stuart I don't think a firefly would haul me as I am 6'2" and 270.. need to drop
some weight and that would help my walking but like you I would love to avoid
the FAA as much as possible..
I think that the Firestar would be more of what I am looking for....
Stuart after looking at your firefly barbones pics I see and appreciate the wing
attachments much better.... for some reason I had it in my head that the main
spar was ahead of the front attachment point and that the spar wasn't connected
to anything structural other than ribs...Now I see how wrong I was...and
that the back swivel attachment is more robust than I thought.....it is not as
easy to see on one that is completed.. Thanks again guys for all of your info
and help. :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454180#454180
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | "west1m" <west1m(at)hotmail.com> |
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the
tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454183#454183
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Swivel - Now OSH |
Oshkosh has changed a bunch since '91. You wouldn't recognize it.
For the most part I think the changes are good. They have moved many things
and expanded. The tram routes have been redone several times. I think they
are pretty good now. They cut down on the some of the vehicle traffic on
the grounds, that helps pedestrians and trams. I camp at the private place
just across the road to the west of the ultralight barn. Makes most things
really close.
As for the Firefly. I am 6' 2" and have no trouble at all with it. When I
bought it I was at 225+ # and now am down to about 210. The 447 with the 3
blade Warp Drive has no problems getting me up and around. For you, the
takeoff rolls and sink rate might be affected a little. I try to fly as
gently as I can. No yank'n and bank'n. At least not yet, I still have less
than 20 hours in the air.
Last year at OSH Bryan was working on getting the new Hirth 50 HP opposed
twin engine fit up to the Firefly. I don't know what progress he has made
but that should be one heck of an engine for the Firefly. Lighter than my
447 and 10 more HP! WOO HOO!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of w0odi
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 1:23 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Swivel
Stuart thanks for the info and website.....I had stumbled across it back
when trying to make up my mind about what to buy.... I hope to go to Oshkosh
again maybe this year who knows....
Rex I see you are from Galena, MO I am from Mountain View, MO thanks for the
info on the elec chairs.... I'm not that bad yet.... and yes I would most
likely spend most of my time in the ultralight area but I loved the flea
market part to.....My brother and I finally wised up and waited on the trams
to pick us up sure saved lots of steps...... I would pretty much have no
choice now... gonna be 59 this year so I don't walk as far as I used to.
Stuart I don't think a firefly would haul me as I am 6'2" and 270.. need to
drop some weight and that would help my walking but like you I would love to
avoid the FAA as much as possible..
I think that the Firestar would be more of what I am looking for....
Stuart after looking at your firefly barbones pics I see and appreciate the
wing attachments much better.... for some reason I had it in my head that
the main spar was ahead of the front attachment point and that the spar
wasn't connected to anything structural other than ribs...Now I see how
wrong I was...and that the back swivel attachment is more robust than I
thought.....it is not as easy to see on one that is completed.. Thanks
again guys for all of your info and help. :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454180#454180
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the
tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because
YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the
tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out
the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He said
"Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual configuration
too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m wrote:
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the
tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
>
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because
YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the
tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out
the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He
said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual
configuration too."
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
>
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
> messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>
> I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
> reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
>
> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m wrote:
>>
>> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does
>> this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
>> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>>
>> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't
>> be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because
>> the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an
>> engineering degree.
>>
>> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>>
>> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I
>> pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started
>> such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of
>> questions about an unusual configuration too."
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
>> for-profit entities
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
Herb
Are you trying to stir things up?
You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need
explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some
incredible aerobatics with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in
his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of
Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this
issue.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
>>
>> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
>> messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>>
>> I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
>> reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
>>
>> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m wrote:
>>>
>>> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this
>>> mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
>>> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>>>
>>> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be
>>> because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the
>>> designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>>>
>>> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>>>
>>> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I
>>> pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such
>>> a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions
>>> about an unusual configuration too."
>>>
>>> Bill Berle
>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
>>> for-profit entities
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and
> turn left.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Just a question Rick?
I wonder how our little planes respond to aileron inputs beyond a 60
deg bank? it comes to mind because the ailerons are stiff and sit on a
long torque tube... and the rear tube and ribs are all that support the
aileron beyond the drag strut lift strut attach point...
I recall Wayne Ison saying that 60 degree banks was the max
recommended for their planes.. Apparently not enough aileron or rudder
to get out of the bank beyond some angle... Herb (who me??)
On 03/27/2016 11:11 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
> Herb
>
> Are you trying to stir things up?
>
> You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You
> need explain more. Your in now.
>
> One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some
> incredible aerobatics with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2
> g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm
> aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb
> having this issue.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Herb > wrote:
>
> >
>
> to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> >
>
> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
> the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>
> I have always had a question about wing twist and possible
> aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
>
> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> >
>
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m > wrote:
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
> engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
> my Kolb?
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
> wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree.
> It would be because the designer of the tail or hinge
> mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
> itself.
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
> today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
> about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I
> would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
> unusual configuration too."
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com <http://www.ezflaphandle.com> -
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net <http://www.grantstar.net> -
> winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
>
> --
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red
> light and turn left.
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
-----------------
The captain of the Titanic "never heard of the Titanic having an iceberg issue
before" either. Just because something never happened before doesn't mean that
exploring the possibility, or wanting to understand the design better, or discussing
whether it's a significant risk... is "stirring up" trouble.
Rick's post brings up an important question of mine: Please define the OFFICIAL
Matronics/Kolb list policy on the difference between "stirring things up" and
bringing up a potential technical/engineering discussion.
Speaking as someone with 20+ years of experience on aviation related internet discussion
forums, I am 100% certain that it would be very appropriate for the
more experienced members here, as well as the list moderator(s) to publish their
definition of the distinction between constructive discussion and causing trouble.
Then, once we can review that official definition, it should be very clear as to
whether Herb's post, or my previous posts, or anyone else's... should be viewed
as problematic. This posting is an official request for the list moderator
and/or list owner to provide such a definition.
Unless Herb and Rick are buddies, and Rick is just pulling his leg, the tone of
Rick's response is a little ominous. Definitely not displaying camaraderie or
mutual respect to my ears. If they are friends and just poking at each other
for fun, then that is different.
Another thing in Rick's post raised some concern for me on a more directly design-relevant
issue. Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's saying that someone went
"Way beyond 2G" in an attempt to determine the absolute limits of the design...
as if "beyond 2G" is pretty far out there toward the absolute limit. But the
reality is that 2G is what you get with a 60 degree banked turn in level flight,
if I'm remembering my basic flight training 40 years ago. 2G is NOWHERE NEAR
the ultimate load on any legitimate aircraft design.
Saying that "beyond 2G" was a significant attempt to explore the "absolute limit"
of an airplane is like saying that "The Ford Mustang test driver went way beyond
60 miles an hour to explore the absolute limit of the tires".
At a bare minimum, the Kolb or any non-aerobatic airplane should be designed for
a 3.8G maximum "design load", with a 50% safety margin, yielding a 5.7G "ultimate
load" (absolute limits) before anything actually breaks. This is the FAA
"standard category" load, which also represents an appropriate minimum level
of strength for any experimental as well.
Most airplanes, including a large number of experimentals, are built to slightly
higher "Utility Category" design loads.
I had previously been under the impression that the Kolb was indeed engineered
or tested to at least thee 3.8 +50% level.
FAR more importantly, if Herb brought up a question about something on a safety
level... whether he is correct or incorrect about what he was concerned with...
the more experienced and/or qualified members of this list should either address
the question without trying to intimidate him, or they should leave it to
others with more knowledge to answer the question.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016
at 11:04 AM, Herb
wrote:
Herb
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g
turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and
possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to
ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m
wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering
degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or
hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah,
I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third
red light and turn left.
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I have always been curious about the behavior of our birds...when
maneuvering beyond a 2 g turn....Never seen any sort of hand book or
specs about that area of the flight envelope....
I note to you, Bill, that the kolbs have had counter balances added
to the ailerons some years ago...also that some of the models..have had
the aileron torque tube inboard actuation moved to the middle of the
aileron itself...
Other light planes with inboard aileron actuation over long torque
tubes need counter balancing against flutter..
since Kolbs are not neutrally stable, what happens in a high bank
angle . What brings it back to level flight at inadvertent near or at
redline speeds? Especially when altitude is not your friend?? Herb
On 03/27/2016 02:13 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen wrote:
>
> Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
>
> One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible
aerobatics
> with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> -----------------
>
> The captain of the Titanic "never heard of the Titanic having an iceberg issue
before" either. Just because something never happened before doesn't mean that
exploring the possibility, or wanting to understand the design better, or discussing
whether it's a significant risk... is "stirring up" trouble.
>
> Rick's post brings up an important question of mine: Please define the OFFICIAL
Matronics/Kolb list policy on the difference between "stirring things up"
and bringing up a potential technical/engineering discussion.
>
> Speaking as someone with 20+ years of experience on aviation related internet
discussion forums, I am 100% certain that it would be very appropriate for the
more experienced members here, as well as the list moderator(s) to publish their
definition of the distinction between constructive discussion and causing
trouble.
>
> Then, once we can review that official definition, it should be very clear as
to whether Herb's post, or my previous posts, or anyone else's... should be viewed
as problematic. This posting is an official request for the list moderator
and/or list owner to provide such a definition.
>
> Unless Herb and Rick are buddies, and Rick is just pulling his leg, the tone
of Rick's response is a little ominous. Definitely not displaying camaraderie
or mutual respect to my ears. If they are friends and just poking at each other
for fun, then that is different.
>
> Another thing in Rick's post raised some concern for me on a more directly design-relevant
issue. Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's saying that someone went
"Way beyond 2G" in an attempt to determine the absolute limits of the design...
as if "beyond 2G" is pretty far out there toward the absolute limit. But the
reality is that 2G is what you get with a 60 degree banked turn in level flight,
if I'm remembering my basic flight training 40 years ago. 2G is NOWHERE
NEAR the ultimate load on any legitimate aircraft design.
>
> Saying that "beyond 2G" was a significant attempt to explore the "absolute limit"
of an airplane is like saying that "The Ford Mustang test driver went way
beyond 60 miles an hour to explore the absolute limit of the tires".
>
> At a bare minimum, the Kolb or any non-aerobatic airplane should be designed
for a 3.8G maximum "design load", with a 50% safety margin, yielding a 5.7G "ultimate
load" (absolute limits) before anything actually breaks. This is the FAA
"standard category" load, which also represents an appropriate minimum level
of strength for any experimental as well.
>
> Most airplanes, including a large number of experimentals, are built to slightly
higher "Utility Category" design loads.
>
> I had previously been under the impression that the Kolb was indeed engineered
or tested to at least thee 3.8 +50% level.
>
> FAR more importantly, if Herb brought up a question about something on a safety
level... whether he is correct or incorrect about what he was concerned with...
the more experienced and/or qualified members of this list should either
address the question without trying to intimidate him, or they should leave it
to others with more knowledge to answer the question.
>
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen wrote:
>
>
> Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
>
> One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible
aerobatics
> with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016
> at 11:04 AM, Herb
> wrote:
> Herb
>
>
>
> to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g
> turns...Herb
>
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
> the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>
>
>
> I have always had a question about wing twist and
> possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to
> ask....Herb
>
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
> engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
> my Kolb?
>
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
>
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
> wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering
> degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or
> hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>
>
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
> itself.
>
>
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
> today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
> about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah,
> I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
> unusual configuration too."
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third
> red light and turn left.
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
>
> br>
> fts!)
>
> r>
> >
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Just read my Kolb List mail from the last 3 or 4 days. Wish I had been able to
read and reply to several of the posts, but am on the road in the mountains of
Tennessee and have little or no internet access. When I do have access I am
can receive, but not transmit email. ;-( I have written a lot of replies and
eventually deleted them because trying to transmit was screwing up my system
and my day.
I have decided to install VGs on my MKIII. Experience I gained from flying Larry
Cottrell's FS powered by a strong, reliable HKS engine, has convinced me I
can make better landings with them. They will also reduce my stall and landing
speeds, and that should be fun to play with. At 77, I don't fly nor land as
well as I did 10 or 20 years ago. The VGs should take the edge off some of those
"sharp" touch downs. The funny thing is, I grease the MKIII in on grass,
and usually break a tad high and drop it in on pavement. I don't like flying
off pavement. Maybe I have a psychological hang up. ;-)
Never had anything against VGs, did not dislike them, just did not need them on
my MKIII until now. I was also afraid I would lose cruise speed on my long cross
country flights, and I didn't need that. Now I understand they probable
will not affect airspeed.
Right now I am using web mail, which is a pain in the butt, but it will get this
email out and maybe a couple more before my fingers get too cold to type. I'm
sitting on a mountain near Oliver Springs, TN, on the front porch of the camp
ground office. The best I can do for the moment.
Got to get back home next week and install a new WARP Drive prop that should be
there when I return. I've flown WARP Drive props for 23 years, and all but two
cross country flights with them pushing my MKIII. I am experimenting with
a 68" 3 blade. Previous WARPs were 70, 72, and 71 (current). I think I can get
as good performance out of the 68" and reduce some of the noise produced by
the prop tips as they zip by the tail boom, which in turn amplifies the noise.
We'll see when I test it next week. Noise is the major fatigue factor of flying
my airplane cross country. In the early days I flew 8 to 10 hour flight
days, but now my average day is 6 flight hours. By then I am bushed. If I can
get a little quieter, I'll be a safer more comfortable pilot.
john h
mkIII
Oliver Springs, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Wing Twist, Aileron Reversal, Testing to Destruction |
I'm getting cold and it is getting dark. So if I don't make a lot of sense and
make a lot of typos, please forgive. When I get home to my computer, I'll try
to do a better job.
The early Ultrastars had a wing twist problem. When activating those big barn
door full span ailerons, the wing would twist in the opposite direction and cancel
out the input. That was because the the main spar wing attachment was two
small 4130 tubes attached inside the spar, top and bottom. Not a good idea.
This US wing had the same problem the B-47 had, as related to me by a B-47 pilot,
Dave Thomas RIP after relating to him my experience with my first homebuilt,
the early US. The wing universal joint was on the front. Soon a modification
was made to eliminate this problem, the 4130 collar and the universal was
moved to the rear attach point. No more twist.
The ailerons will not reverse control on a Kolb. The Kit Fox and its predecessor
(CRS) had that potential problem if the aileron control linkage was not adjusted
correctly. My buddy, Junk Yard Chuck Shaunesy, put one in the pine trees
upside down when this happened to him.
You can literally put a Kolb on its wing tip in a very tight turn. Looks like
the wing tip is stuck on one spot on the ground. Not 90 degrees, but very close
to it. I have demonstrated this maneuver many times in my MKIII and the factory
FS at the Kolb Homecomings and many other places over the years. When
you want to level out, right stick and it rolls back level.
Kolb ailerons and elevators are hanging on their hinges by their leading edges.
About as unbalanced as I am. I experienced aileron flutter on my US, FS, and
MKIII. In the MKIII anything over 80 mph and it was prone to flutter. Homer
Kolb and the rest of the Kolb crew did not believe me when I told them all my
Kolbs experienced flutter. I designed counterbalance weights for the MKIII when
I built it. Early on in testing it fluttered. My counterbalance weights
were actually aggravating the problem. I flew down to Sun and Fun, 1993, to fly
the factory MKIII. Dick Rahill was flying the factory FS as usual. He had
been over to South Lakeland screwing off and had to stay until after the air
show. A typical Lakeland thunderstorm was brewing and the wind was starting to
kick ass when Dick departed South Lakeland. He was flying wide open, about
half way back, hit some severe turbulence, and the FS went into severe flutter.
Definitely got Dick's attention. He was white as a sheet when he landed.
Within a week or two I had a set of FS counterbalance weights for my MKIII. They
were not quite heavy enough, but I figured out how to make them work. Never
had a hint of flutter since then. Kolb Company finally figured out we had
a flutter problem and reacted very quickly. If your Kolb does not have aileron
counter balance weights, it should have. I flew a lot of Kolbs that did not
flutter. Never had a elevator flutter, but have had rudder flutter on FS and
MKIII. My fix for the MKIII was double up on rudder pedal springs. It works.
I can fly with my feet on the deck.
Dennis Souder and Homer decided to test the Ultrastar by flying rather than static
load test. The US was equipped with an accelerometer (G Meter) and a Jim
Handbury, hand deployed parachute. Dennis' test consisted of diving for airspeed
and pulling out to load the wings. BTW all Kolbs are rated at 4 Gs + and
-. Several tests to 4 Gs was completed satisfactorily. Dennis decided to do
a final test a little (lot) faster with an abrupt pull out. I can not remember
the numbers, but when he snatched the stick back the left drag strut failed
by bending out of column. Dennis tossed the parachute and recovered himself and
the US. They immediately designed a drag strut brace that solved the problem.
The reason the newer model MKIII has a near center mounted aileron horn is the
use of a Morse Control Cable, rather than the normal push/pull tube configuration
on the older Kolbs.
I am sure there is some twist in the inboard aileron horn mounted front spar, but
it is negligible.
Lack of aft stick with heavy loads is caused by the use of 3/32 up elevator cables.
When I built my MKIII 25 years ago, I installed 1/8" up and 3/32 down cables.
I don't have that problem. I think Kolb went to 1/8" up elevator cables
after the first year we had the new yellow MKIII at Lakeland. I had to abort
a takeoff with a rather hefty passenger when I ran out of aft stick. I had
an idea it was going to do this and informed my passenger prior to takeoff, if
I was not flying by midfield, I would abort. The light bulb went off, I put
two and two together. Bryan put 1/8" up elevator cable on the MKIII and solved
problem.
About all I can think of now. Got to go tend my frost bit fingers.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing Twist, Aileron Reversal, Testing to Destruction |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Everything I wanted to hear...thanks Heaps... with my memory you have
likely said most of it before...Good to hear...Herb
On 03/27/2016 07:58 PM, jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com wrote:
>
> I'm getting cold and it is getting dark. So if I don't make a lot of sense and
make a lot of typos, please forgive. When I get home to my computer, I'll
try to do a better job.
>
> The early Ultrastars had a wing twist problem. When activating those big barn
door full span ailerons, the wing would twist in the opposite direction and
cancel out the input. That was because the the main spar wing attachment was
two small 4130 tubes attached inside the spar, top and bottom. Not a good idea.
This US wing had the same problem the B-47 had, as related to me by a B-47
pilot, Dave Thomas RIP after relating to him my experience with my first homebuilt,
the early US. The wing universal joint was on the front. Soon a modification
was made to eliminate this problem, the 4130 collar and the universal
was moved to the rear attach point. No more twist.
>
> The ailerons will not reverse control on a Kolb. The Kit Fox and its predecessor
(CRS) had that potential problem if the aileron control linkage was not adjusted
correctly. My buddy, Junk Yard Chuck Shaunesy, put one in the pine trees
upside down when this happened to him.
>
> You can literally put a Kolb on its wing tip in a very tight turn. Looks like
the wing tip is stuck on one spot on the ground. Not 90 degrees, but very
close to it. I have demonstrated this maneuver many times in my MKIII and the
factory FS at the Kolb Homecomings and many other places over the years. When
you want to level out, right stick and it rolls back level.
>
> Kolb ailerons and elevators are hanging on their hinges by their leading edges.
About as unbalanced as I am. I experienced aileron flutter on my US, FS, and
MKIII. In the MKIII anything over 80 mph and it was prone to flutter. Homer
Kolb and the rest of the Kolb crew did not believe me when I told them all
my Kolbs experienced flutter. I designed counterbalance weights for the MKIII
when I built it. Early on in testing it fluttered. My counterbalance weights
were actually aggravating the problem. I flew down to Sun and Fun, 1993, to
fly the factory MKIII. Dick Rahill was flying the factory FS as usual. He had
been over to South Lakeland screwing off and had to stay until after the air
show. A typical Lakeland thunderstorm was brewing and the wind was starting
to kick ass when Dick departed South Lakeland. He was flying wide open, about
half way back, hit some severe turbulence, and the FS went into severe flutter.
Definitely got Dick's attention. He was white as!
> a sheet when he landed. Within a week or two I had a set of FS counterbalance
weights for my MKIII. They were not quite heavy enough, but I figured out
how to make them work. Never had a hint of flutter since then. Kolb Company
finally figured out we had a flutter problem and reacted very quickly. If your
Kolb does not have aileron counter balance weights, it should have. I flew
a lot of Kolbs that did not flutter. Never had a elevator flutter, but have
had rudder flutter on FS and MKIII. My fix for the MKIII was double up on rudder
pedal springs. It works. I can fly with my feet on the deck.
>
> Dennis Souder and Homer decided to test the Ultrastar by flying rather than static
load test. The US was equipped with an accelerometer (G Meter) and a Jim
Handbury, hand deployed parachute. Dennis' test consisted of diving for airspeed
and pulling out to load the wings. BTW all Kolbs are rated at 4 Gs + and
-. Several tests to 4 Gs was completed satisfactorily. Dennis decided to do
a final test a little (lot) faster with an abrupt pull out. I can not remember
the numbers, but when he snatched the stick back the left drag strut failed
by bending out of column. Dennis tossed the parachute and recovered himself
and the US. They immediately designed a drag strut brace that solved the problem.
>
> The reason the newer model MKIII has a near center mounted aileron horn is the
use of a Morse Control Cable, rather than the normal push/pull tube configuration
on the older Kolbs.
>
> I am sure there is some twist in the inboard aileron horn mounted front spar,
but it is negligible.
>
> Lack of aft stick with heavy loads is caused by the use of 3/32 up elevator cables.
When I built my MKIII 25 years ago, I installed 1/8" up and 3/32 down
cables. I don't have that problem. I think Kolb went to 1/8" up elevator cables
after the first year we had the new yellow MKIII at Lakeland. I had to abort
a takeoff with a rather hefty passenger when I ran out of aft stick. I had
an idea it was going to do this and informed my passenger prior to takeoff,
if I was not flying by midfield, I would abort. The light bulb went off, I put
two and two together. Bryan put 1/8" up elevator cable on the MKIII and solved
problem.
>
> About all I can think of now. Got to go tend my frost bit fingers.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com> |
Larry,
Legitimate question, not a can of worms at all. Here is my experience with the
wing fold mechanism.
I remade my left wing fold attach fitting a few years back to change the angle
of incidence in the left wing. This allowed me to trim out a slight roll tendency
at high power settings without an ugly trim tab. Knowing the consequences
of a poorly made part here, I cut out five sets of parts. I welded one up
and then destroyed it. Changed my welding technique a bit, made another and
smashed and pried until it failed. The fourth one is on my airplane. You would
be amazed how difficult it was to break even the first one with shallow welds.
It took no end of prying, bending the ears in a vise and smashing with a
4 lb hammer to get it to break.
I beveled the edges on the rest of the parts to get better penetration on the welds.
The second took a good half hour of work to destroy, but I finally got
one of the weld joints to start to split. I made one more adjustment and built
the third. I mangled it badly but could not get the welds to fail. I wish
I had taken a picture of how badly I smashed, bent and chewed on that fitting.
It was seeing the fitting take that kind of abuse that gave me the confidence
to put the fourth one on my airplane.
That is a long way of saying, don't worry about the folding mechanism. It is a
strong and elegant design.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454250#454250
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> |
Is it possible for us to quit attacking each other and talk about Kolbs?
Please?
Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
(305) 814-7218
baberdk(at)gmail.com
Connection - Compassion - Control
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b young" <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | flight home from the rock house |
just for information.... on my way home from the rock house to Utah,,
,, when I descended into Buhl Idaho for fuel, my 912 started running a bi
t rough. it was not continuous just a split second of rough then smooth
right out. but it repeated itself every few seconds. after refueling
I did a run up, every seemed to run smooth. so I thought that I maybe ha
d had a bit of carb ice... I took off with the thought of returning if all
did not sound or feel right... the 912 purred like always.... until I
reached altitude and throttled back. this time the vibration had only shor
t periods of smooth between long rough periods. I tried the enrichener, bu
t that made it much worse.... tried turning off both mags one at a time...
=2E the mags made no difference.... went back to WOT and things smooth
ed out... by this time I looked out the window and was over another airpor
t, chopped power and landed.... The kid at the airport was just putting a
way his RV7 and was going home.... he hung around long enough till I got
things running smoothly again..... I checked the float bowls, all looked
good, no debris or water. then I noticed the float bowl vent tube, I hav
e always had it vented into the air cleaners.... but on one side the tube
had kinked. I asked for a bit of safety wire, straightened out the tu
be wrapped the kink with the wire, put it back on,,, The wire kept the tub
e from folding over,,, I went for a high speed taxi text, then did a loop
around the pattern.... everything ran smooth... so I departed for home,
a 2 hour flight without problems.
moral of the story,,,, keep the float bowl vent lines open...
boyd young
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shadow94" <seanote(at)echoes.net> |
I am working on my tail wheel tube, replacing with the solid aluminum over the
existing fiberglass one. Would anyone have a photo of the solid aluminum installation
that they would be willing to share? I would like to see where the securing
bolts are placed.
thanks in advance.
--------
Mark
Twinstar MKII
Great Bend, PA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454265#454265
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: flight home from the rock house |
Hi Boyd,
Glad you figured out the problem and made it home safely. And thanks for po
sting this - one more thing to be sure to check out during mt pre-flights.
Arty
=C2-www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
From: b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 6:21 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: flight home from the rock house
=C2-=C2-=C2- just for information....=C2-=C2- on my way home from
the rock house to Utah,,,,=C2- when I descended into Buhl Idaho forfuel,
=C2- my 912 started running a bit rough.=C2-=C2- it was notcontinuous
=C2- just a split second of rough then smooth right out.=C2-=C2-but i
t repeated itself every few seconds.=C2-=C2- afterrefueling=C2-=C2-
=C2- I did a run up,=C2- every seemed to runsmooth.=C2- so I thought
that I maybe had had a bit of carb ice...=C2- Itook off with the thought
of returning if all did not sound=C2- or feelright...=C2-=C2- the 912
purred like always....=C2- until I reachedaltitude and throttled back.
=C2- this time the vibration had only shortperiods of smooth between long
rough periods.=C2- I tried the enrichener, butthat made it much worse...
.=C2- tried turning off both mags one at atime....=C2- the mags made no
difference....=C2- went back to=C2-=C2-WOT=C2- and things smoothed
out...=C2- by this time I looked out the windowand was over another airp
ort,=C2- chopped power and landed....=C2- The kidat the airport was jus
t putting away his RV7=C2- and was going home....=C2-he hung around lon
g enough till I got things running smoothly again.....=C2- Ichecked the f
loat bowls,=C2- all looked good, no debris or water.=C2-=C2-then I no
ticed the float bowl vent tube,=C2- I have always had it vented intothe a
ir cleaners....=C2- but on one side the tube hadkinked.=C2-=C2-=C2-
I asked for a bit of safety wire,=C2-=C2-=C2-straightened out the tu
be wrapped the kink with the wire, put it backon,,,=C2- The wire kept the
tube from folding over,,,=C2-=C2- I went for ahigh speed taxi text, th
en did a loop around the pattern....=C2-=C2-everything ran smooth... so
I departed for home, a 2 hour flight withoutproblems.=C2-moral of the st
ory,,,, keep the float bowl vent lines open...=C2-boyd young
| | This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus softw
are.
www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
John
I have mentioned it before but I use a set of Bose QC-20 noise canceling
headphones under my Sigtronics headset with a installed noise canceling
kit. They work extremely good. I plug the Bose headsets into my intercom
with a adapter for hearing and the Sigtronics for the microphone. If there
is a problem it is that the impedance is lower than aviation headset so I
have to turn the volume down on the intercom and radio. The voice feedback
of my voice when I transmit is still a bit loud on the ground. In the air
with my VW at cruise power it is just about right. When receiving radio
calls I can recognise every word and even recognise voices. I played with
turning off the different noise canceling units individually while flying.
If I turn off the kit noise canceling in my Sigtronics I can just barely
hear the difference. If I turn off the Bose noise canceling units there is
a big difference. I normally fly with both on. I take the Bose headsets
just about everywhere. Flying commercial (I can actually hear the movies,
screaming babies-wow, on my last 6 hour flight it was much less tiring),
walking the beach listening to music, even used them on a tour of a ship
engine room. I try to protect my old ears as much as I can to slow my
hearing loss.
The list price is $300 but got one and later one for my wife on Ebay for
around $220-240. I will bring them to Sun N Funds. Hope to see everyone
there. I have clear skies, no wind or rain on order.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 8:13 PM, wrote:
>
> Just read my Kolb List mail from the last 3 or 4 days. Wish I had been
> able to read and reply to several of the posts, but am on the road in the
> mountains of Tennessee and have little or no internet access. When I do
> have access I am can receive, but not transmit email. ;-( I have written
> a lot of replies and eventually deleted them because trying to transmit was
> screwing up my system and my day.
>
> I have decided to install VGs on my MKIII. Experience I gained from
> flying Larry Cottrell's FS powered by a strong, reliable HKS engine, has
> convinced me I can make better landings with them. They will also reduce
> my stall and landing speeds, and that should be fun to play with. At 77, I
> don't fly nor land as well as I did 10 or 20 years ago. The VGs should
> take the edge off some of those "sharp" touch downs. The funny thing is, I
> grease the MKIII in on grass, and usually break a tad high and drop it in
> on pavement. I don't like flying off pavement. Maybe I have a
> psychological hang up. ;-)
>
> Never had anything against VGs, did not dislike them, just did not need
> them on my MKIII until now. I was also afraid I would lose cruise speed on
> my long cross country flights, and I didn't need that. Now I understand
> they probable will not affect airspeed.
>
> Right now I am using web mail, which is a pain in the butt, but it will
> get this email out and maybe a couple more before my fingers get too cold
> to type. I'm sitting on a mountain near Oliver Springs, TN, on the front
> porch of the camp ground office. The best I can do for the moment.
>
> Got to get back home next week and install a new WARP Drive prop that
> should be there when I return. I've flown WARP Drive props for 23 years,
> and all but two cross country flights with them pushing my MKIII. I am
> experimenting with a 68" 3 blade. Previous WARPs were 70, 72, and 71
> (current). I think I can get as good performance out of the 68" and reduce
> some of the noise produced by the prop tips as they zip by the tail boom,
> which in turn amplifies the noise. We'll see when I test it next week.
> Noise is the major fatigue factor of flying my airplane cross country. In
> the early days I flew 8 to 10 hour flight days, but now my average day is 6
> flight hours. By then I am bushed. If I can get a little quieter, I'll be
> a safer more comfortable pilot.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Oliver Springs, TN
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel tube |
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
Since mine is close I am sending you a picture of the way that mine is
done. Mine had a alum tail wheel rod that came with it, so I only braced it
to reduce the stress on the rudder post as suggested by John H. If you have
not already done so, I would suggest that you brace it on each side when
you replace the rod.
Larry
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Shadow94 wrote:
>
> I am working on my tail wheel tube, replacing with the solid aluminum over
> the existing fiberglass one. Would anyone have a photo of the solid
> aluminum installation that they would be willing to share? I would like to
> see where the securing bolts are placed.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> --------
> Mark
> Twinstar MKII
> Great Bend, PA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454265#454265
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I think ole John did the job....He explained much about the history of
Kolbs and modifications....that the factory is responsive to
problems...and better still...showed how much experience this list has
flying and wrecking our birds...:-)
any one the least bit skeptical should feel assured by what he
wrote... Great airplanes,,,jump in the water ...only way to get the
ultimate thrill that is flying our little birds....Herb
On 03/28/2016 10:53 AM, Denny Baber wrote:
> Is it possible for us to quit attacking each other and talk about
> Kolbs? Please?
>
>
> Respectfully,
> Dennis Baber
> (305) 814-7218
> baberdk(at)gmail.com
> Connection - Compassion - Control
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
On Mon, 3/28/16, Denny Baber wrote:
Is it possible for us to quit attacking each other and talk about Kolbs? Please?
-----------------
Excellent idea !
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Mr Hawkins for the info and I also wished you had taken pics also that would
valuable in showing everyone how strong the attachment really is... Thanks
again
Larry
R. Hankins wrote:
> Larry,
> Legitimate question, not a can of worms at all. Here is my experience with the
wing fold mechanism.
>
> I remade my left wing fold attach fitting a few years back to change the angle
of incidence in the left wing. This allowed me to trim out a slight roll
tendency at high power settings without an ugly trim tab. Knowing the consequences
of a poorly made part here, I cut out five sets of parts. I welded one
up and then destroyed it. Changed my welding technique a bit, made another and
smashed and pried until it failed. The fourth one is on my airplane. You
would be amazed how difficult it was to break even the first one with shallow
welds. It took no end of prying, bending the ears in a vise and smashing with
a 4 lb hammer to get it to break.
>
> I beveled the edges on the rest of the parts to get better penetration on the
welds. The second took a good half hour of work to destroy, but I finally got
one of the weld joints to start to split. I made one more adjustment and built
the third. I mangled it badly but could not get the welds to fail. I wish
I had taken a picture of how badly I smashed, bent and chewed on that fitting.
It was seeing the fitting take that kind of abuse that gave me the confidence
to put the fourth one on my airplane.
>
> That is a long way of saying, don't worry about the folding mechanism. It is
a strong and elegant design.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454285#454285
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JC's foldable project... |
| From: | JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com> |
Gday All,
This is not Kolb related so I feel that I'm intruding on this forum, but
I've had several requests from folks on this list for more info, so I'll
try to cover it all right now even if it gets a bit long-winded, and then
I'll get out of your way.
For a start, I call it my 'High Clearance Trail Bike' HCTB. It's all my
own design and concept, but of course it's pretty much all been done
before, so it's just a matter of using what has already been proven to work
elsewhere. It fits the Australian 95.10 ultralite category which allows
300kg(660lbs) max T/O weight, but must allow for a 90kg(198lb) pilot and
15litres(10.5kg) of fuel, so max empty weight = 199.5kg(439lb). (Sounds
weird but that's the way they do it.) This one weighs 180kg = 396lb at
present. That's a fair bit heavier than most FireStars, which with options
of 503, heavy duty wheels and brakes, 15gal tank, etc, I would guess come
in at close to 350lb. I only weigh 165#, so my all up weight won't be much
more than a 200#er in a FireStar. It's heavier than best for max climb
performance, but built for a special purpose as follows. I built the
fuselage 10 years ago, then got distracted by other projects until now....
Fuselage construction is all welded aluminum, a mixture of 6061 T6
construction material and 6060 T5 ordinary domestic material. In Australia
all aircraft grade material must be imported and with the limited market
there's really only one supplier so you can imagine the prices..... An
advantage of this material used is that it's all weldable. Nothing is
thinner wall than 1.6mm(0.062", 1/16"), which makes welding easy enough but
adds weight. It's all welded with an old MigOMag 175, which is a totally
basic MIG, no pulse or hot start or variable heat while running, so it was
quite a challenge..... Have to travel really fast and don't hesitate, but
with a whole lot of practice it works well. Not as pretty as a TIG, but
100% penetration and large strong beads, if a bit lumpy..... But some
pretty good results if I do say so myself.... The heat from welding
anneals the material either side, so some loss of strength but take that
into account in design. But the good point is there are no hard brittle
spots that can lead to cracking, as can happen next to a weld in chrom-moly
steel.
I feel that I need to justify this method of welded aluminum construction
because so many are horrified by the very idea.... I have some experience
that proves to me how suitable it can be. I once converted a Beaver RX550
into a twin-engined, push-pull, with 447's front and back. (Incidentally,
push-pull is not a good arrangement unless you can have in-flight
adjustable props, and beside two 2-strokes is way too many to deal with!)
That conversion involved a lot of modification, including moving the
landing gear strong point and adding a front engine mount, and I did all
that in welded aluminum. I also considerably strengthened the pilot
protection cage with welded domestic tubing 3mm(1/8") wall. Then while
attempting to land on an outback road to access a fuel station, I hooked
the wheels in a single wire power line and crashed vertical nose first onto
the road...... Only injury was a broken ankle, but if it hadn't been for
that protection cage I'd have been hamburger..... The impact destroyed the
aircraft, with every bolted tube joint of the original manufacture busted,
and riveted web joints mostly torn away, but not one of my welded joints
broke! Lots of bent tubing absorbing the energy, but not one fracture....
That just confirmed testing that I had done in the workshop, and convinced
me that I wanted the next aircraft to be built this way. A shattered heel
bone takes a long time to heal, and as I hobbled around the workshop
working on this HCTB project, that ankle kept reminding me that this time I
want even better protection....
And there is massive pilot protection in this aircraft. The boom is 4x3"
0.062 wall 6060 T6 rectangular section, as used in the construction
industry. It goes right from the very front of the aircraft to the tail,
shaped like the keel of a boat. The connection to the wings and around the
pilot is thoroughly triangulated, with multiple redundant load paths and
all members carrying loads only in tension/compression, so no bending
moments. Extra structure out front to protect me from tree branches, wires,
or whatever may come. There are places I want to explore that will have no
good landing options, so if the engine stops it'll have to be a rough
landing into whatever terrain is down there. I'm tired of having to turn
back because landing options weren't suitable for an aircraft where I'm
sitting out front with no protection, and my feet would be the first to
arrive followed closely by my face.... With a 30kt landing speed, good
seatbelts, and the structural protection in this aircraft, I think it would
be walkaway from just about anything..... Not that I'm going to get
reckless about it..... No going to count on this protection over tall
forests..... Much of Australia is covered by 'mulga scrub'. These are
small trees 10-20' tall, often open spaced but not open enough to land and
roll. Very tough and hard, push a branch and it pushes back. Kind of like
mesquite, tough and ornery... Jutting up and out from the base are often
dead branches that are as sharp and rigid as spears.... That's the sort of
terrain that I want protection from....
The wing at present is the Dacron skin from a Drifter on my own ladder
truss frame. Goes OK, but I may change to something more high-lift for
slower STOL. Haven't built the folding mechanism until I settle of the
right wing. The tail is from that wrecked Beaver (only the tail and rear
447 survived). Still need to build a folding tail like the Kolb. Aileron
and elevator controls are push-pull cables, rudder by wire cables. The seat
tank is rotationally molded polyethylene, made here for gyros, 15 gal.
One aircraft that stimulated this design was the AirBike, except I didn't
want my feet outside the cockpit, with cold wind blowing up pant
legs...... This concept could just as well be built from chrom-moly or
aluminum tube joined with riveted webs. I found enough books on aircraft
design that give guidance on the incident angles, proportions of tail
surfaces, etc, etc, and measuring of other aircraft with proven flying
characteristics, so that this wasn't really an unknown design. I'm no
aeronautical engineer, but neither was Homer Kolb.....
My Kolb list access doesn't show the last photo I posted, but the rest of
you seem to have seen it, so I'll go ahead and post some more photos, then
get out of the way.
Cheers,
JG
=8BIt does look a bit like a High Clearance Trail Bike, eh....
=8BThat 'keel' goes right through under the pilot.
The landing gear and main strut mounts are all one piece to carry the
largest loads to one point.
That 'stinger' out front is to protect the prop in case I brake too hard
and nose over.
=8BThe early framework.
=8B=8B
=8BIt will eventually pack up like this to be able to load into the s
limmest
trailer for easy towing. The engine in front makes the folded width more
compact.
=8BLove this tail wheel! It makes this a 'tail wheel' aircraft rathe
r than a
'tail dragger'. As soon as it's on the ground I have complete steerage
control, on soft sand or hard asphalt, regardless of x-wind. It's 10"
diameter and 3" wide, and I'm willing to live with the minimal drag at our
speeds. I hated the little toy wheel on the Kolbs....
Those down tubes are 1/8" wall.....
My ankle feels really safe and comfortable in there....
I do like to sit well back behind the engine and all that structure up
front.....
Visibility is still pretty good.
=8B
=8BFirst flight, with the wings borrowed from a Zenith 701. It didn'
t like
those slatted wings, way too draggy.... Went better without the leading
edge slats, but still not suitable for a folding aircraft due to inevitable
dents in a metal wing from all the handling.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JC's foldable project... |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
John you have designed a very clever and well thought out little airplane. I especially
like how the landing gear arrangement was done. Hope you never need to
prove it to be as tough as it looks.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454303#454303
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing Swivel - Now OSH |
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
Stuart,
Thanks for your reply... Sounds like it has changed quite a bit, I was much younger
in 91 and the walking wasn't a problem but now that I am older walking those
distances wouldn't be as much fun as they were back then...
The trams would be the way to go... I love the war birds but my main interest is
on the south end... :)
Sounds like you have a good spot if you are camping by the Red Barn that would
really be handy..
It would be great to have the Firefly then no Annual no registration... All I
want to do is fly and I don't really have any place I want to go other than just
get up and fly and look and the beauty of God's creation... It is amazing all
the things that you see that you have no idea that are there other wise.. Lots
of hidden treasures you get to see from the air..
The extra HP from the Hirth would be great... would be like a rocket... oh and
as you said about not banking and yanking I don't like to fly that way anyway
never did back in the days of flying GA stuff.... Love just flying along at a
relaxed pace between 500 and 1000 ft.....as I only have 10 hours on this machine
since i bought it last year so I am still learning what it can do and also
what I can and can't do....
Thanks
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454314#454314
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bearden" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Kinked vent tube |
> but on one side the tube had kinked. I asked for a bit of safetywire.
I have had troublesome plastic tubing in other situations. Sometimes it
works well to insert a spring.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bearden" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net> |
> but not sure my legs and back could take all that walking
You can reserve/rent an electric mobility scooter. Worked for me. Not great,
but better'n staying home.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Kinked vent tube |
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
but on one side the tube had kinked. I asked for a bit of safetywire.
I have had troublesome plastic tubing in other situations. Sometimes it
works well to insert a spring.
That was my thought as well. I tried a spring from a pen, but it was to
large to go in. Maybe I could have found a smaller one. I suppose it could
have been wrapped it on the outside of the tube. Or A small wire instead
of the spring wrapped on the outside would do as well. What I've ended up
with is a tube , same quarter inch od. But the ID. Is about 15 thousands
smaller. The heavier wall is less likely to kink, as seen in side by side
comparison. Who knows what time, heat, vibration, fuel vapors, etc will do.
Boyd y
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh visit |
The transportation infrastructure at Oshkosh is wonderful, EAA did a really good
job. The passenger trams run through the whole AirVenture site all day long,
cutting way way down on the walking. The transportation to and from the site
to the dorms, hotels, etc. is good too.
They do have scooters and golf carts you can rent... not cheap but possibly a make-or-break
item if you are not up to even a little bit of walking.
It is well worth going and doing whatever it takes to be there, especially if you
haven't been there before.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/31/16, George Bearden wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Oshkosh visit
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, March 31, 2016, 1:42 AM
"George Bearden"
> but not sure my legs and back could take all that
walking
You can reserve/rent an electric mobility scooter. Worked
for me. Not great,
but better'n staying home.
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh visit |
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
I am sure my biggest problem is wanting to see it all once I get back up there..
:) I love all facet's of aviation and am a dreamer and love to see all of the
innovation that is coming out and that I have been missing by not having been
there in so long... I try to keep up on the lists and all of the sites on the
web but being there would just be amazing again since it has been so long...geez
it's just been 25 years this year....wow...Dang I am getting old...
Well sounds like I need to get out and do some pre trip walking and get my lazy
butt in shape.... well ROUND is a shape.....just not a good one for walking a
lot in a short amount of time... Well need to drop some pounds anyway......would
be good for me.. Thanks for all the great info guys... this is a great group
and I am glad to be here lurking as I have been doing... Thanks for your
help...
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454406#454406
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/for/5511624690.html
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454408#454408
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I bought it over in Somerset Ky....pretty sure it is the one on the Kolb
site... sold it to Indiana... Engine had near 500 hours...but the b box
and three blade warp is the same...Good plane...engine was rebuilt as I
recall..Herb
On 03/31/2016 10:12 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/for/5511624690.html
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454408#454408
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Slingshot Bargain? |
I bought it over in Somerset Ky....pretty sure it is the one on the Kolb
site... sold it to Indiana... Engine had near 500 hours...but the b box and
three blade warp is the same...Good plane...engine was rebuilt as I
recall..Herb
Herb/Kolbers:
Was this the same yellow SS that was at the Kolb Homecoming one year?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Think so....The guy lived in the rural Somerset Ky area... It is still
shown on the New Kolb site..
I just noticed that the ad has been pulled...I was going to call this
morning.! :-) Herb
On 04/01/2016 07:46 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I bought it over in Somerset Ky....pretty sure it is the one on the Kolb
> site... sold it to Indiana... Engine had near 500 hours...but the b box and
> three blade warp is the same...Good plane...engine was rebuilt as I
> recall..Herb
>
>
>
>
> Herb/Kolbers:
>
> Was this the same yellow SS that was at the Kolb Homecoming one year?
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Slingshot Bargain? |
I
Think so....The guy lived in the rural Somerset Ky area... It is still
shown on the New Kolb site..
I just noticed that the ad has been pulled...I was going to call this
morning.! :-) Herb
If so, this SS was owned by a friend of mine here in the Wetumpka, Alabama,
area. This is the SS with rib stitched wings that decided to release from
inboard out. Took us a few days to discover what the problem was. Had a
terrible noise and vibration in flight. Had to do some close in flight
inspections to finally see the fabric ballooning on the right inboard wing.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I went through my bills of sale...and found that it is N359RC. Called
the Steven Doebbling Slingshot...Herb
On 04/01/2016 08:11 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> I
>
>
>
> Think so....The guy lived in the rural Somerset Ky area... It is still
> shown on the New Kolb site..
>
> I just noticed that the ad has been pulled...I was going to call this
> morning.! :-) Herb
>
>
> If so, this SS was owned by a friend of mine here in the Wetumpka, Alabama,
> area. This is the SS with rib stitched wings that decided to release from
> inboard out. Took us a few days to discover what the problem was. Had a
> terrible noise and vibration in flight. Had to do some close in flight
> inspections to finally see the fabric ballooning on the right inboard wing.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
OOps...Here is the plane on Youtube...
May not be the same one...Herb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkJF2ASDTSk
On 04/01/2016 08:26 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> I went through my bills of sale...and found that it is N359RC. Called
> the Steven Doebbling Slingshot...Herb
>
> On 04/01/2016 08:11 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> I
>>
>>
>> Think so....The guy lived in the rural Somerset Ky area... It is still
>> shown on the New Kolb site..
>>
>> I just noticed that the ad has been pulled...I was going to call
>> this
>> morning.! :-) Herb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If so, this SS was owned by a friend of mine here in the Wetumpka,
>> Alabama,
>> area. This is the SS with rib stitched wings that decided to release
>> from
>> inboard out. Took us a few days to discover what the problem was.
>> Had a
>> terrible noise and vibration in flight. Had to do some close in flight
>> inspections to finally see the fabric ballooning on the right inboard
>> wing.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
The RC stands for Robert Chandler...he retired to Fla...and sold it to
me... Herb
On 04/01/2016 08:26 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> I went through my bills of sale...and found that it is N359RC. Called
> the Steven Doebbling Slingshot...Herb
>
> On 04/01/2016 08:11 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> I
>>
>>
>> Think so....The guy lived in the rural Somerset Ky area... It is still
>> shown on the New Kolb site..
>>
>> I just noticed that the ad has been pulled...I was going to call
>> this
>> morning.! :-) Herb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If so, this SS was owned by a friend of mine here in the Wetumpka,
>> Alabama,
>> area. This is the SS with rib stitched wings that decided to release
>> from
>> inboard out. Took us a few days to discover what the problem was.
>> Had a
>> terrible noise and vibration in flight. Had to do some close in flight
>> inspections to finally see the fabric ballooning on the right inboard
>> wing.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | "w0odi" <woodyz1957(at)gmail.com> |
If this is the same one I called about it yesterday and the guy called me back
and said he had a guy coming Saturday to look at it he was pretty sure the guy
was going to take it..... said it had a little over 500 on the airframe and had
130 i think on a new blue head 582..... They guy was from kokomo IN.....heck
of a nice guy..... We talked over 30 minutes on the phone said he had been trying
to sell for for sometime and just kept reducing the price.....
He said he went to Oshkosh and ordered the kit in 94 and it was the 6th slingshot
off the line..
He said he spent more time flying the luscombe that he was partners on that he
did with the kolb so he said it had set for over a year and he said he just wanted
it gone... he said that a kid that lived 5 miles from him was coming saturday
and he was pretty sure he was going to take it.. He is from an aviation family
and was a rotax service guy. I told him I would buy if it if he decided
he didn't want it.. He said he had a couple others that were interested also...I
don't expect to get a phone call....
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454423#454423
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Forget all that I said....different plane....!! Herb
On 04/01/2016 09:19 AM, w0odi wrote:
>
> If this is the same one I called about it yesterday and the guy called me back
and said he had a guy coming Saturday to look at it he was pretty sure the guy
was going to take it..... said it had a little over 500 on the airframe and
had 130 i think on a new blue head 582..... They guy was from kokomo IN.....heck
of a nice guy..... We talked over 30 minutes on the phone said he had been
trying to sell for for sometime and just kept reducing the price.....
>
> He said he went to Oshkosh and ordered the kit in 94 and it was the 6th slingshot
off the line..
>
> He said he spent more time flying the luscombe that he was partners on that he
did with the kolb so he said it had set for over a year and he said he just
wanted it gone... he said that a kid that lived 5 miles from him was coming saturday
and he was pretty sure he was going to take it.. He is from an aviation
family and was a rotax service guy. I told him I would buy if it if he decided
he didn't want it.. He said he had a couple others that were interested also...I
don't expect to get a phone call....
>
> Larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454423#454423
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slingshot Bargain? |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Mine went to Moores Hill ,Ind...guy by the name of Mark... over 500
hours...etc..sure sounded like the same plane...Herb
On 04/01/2016 09:42 AM, Herb wrote:
> Forget all that I said....different plane....!! Herb
>
> On 04/01/2016 09:19 AM, w0odi wrote:
>>
>> If this is the same one I called about it yesterday and the guy
>> called me back and said he had a guy coming Saturday to look at it he
>> was pretty sure the guy was going to take it..... said it had a
>> little over 500 on the airframe and had 130 i think on a new blue
>> head 582..... They guy was from kokomo IN.....heck of a nice guy.....
>> We talked over 30 minutes on the phone said he had been trying to
>> sell for for sometime and just kept reducing the price.....
>>
>> He said he went to Oshkosh and ordered the kit in 94 and it was the
>> 6th slingshot off the line..
>>
>> He said he spent more time flying the luscombe that he was partners
>> on that he did with the kolb so he said it had set for over a year
>> and he said he just wanted it gone... he said that a kid that lived 5
>> miles from him was coming saturday and he was pretty sure he was
>> going to take it.. He is from an aviation family and was a rotax
>> service guy. I told him I would buy if it if he decided he didn't
>> want it.. He said he had a couple others that were interested
>> also...I don't expect to get a phone call....
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454423#454423
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Irv Botton" <ibotton(at)nycap.rr.com> |
| Subject: | removal from lists |
I am requesting that I am removed from all matronic lists. I am 86 years
old, in poor health and not involved with aviation any more.
thank you,
irving botton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | removal from lists |
Irv:
Here's the page to unsubscribe from the Matronic Lists:
http://www.matronics.com/subscription/
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Irv Botton
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 5:52 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: removal from lists
I am requesting that I am removed from all matronic lists. I am 86 years
old, in poor health and not involved with aviation any more.
thank you,
irving botton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kinked vent tube |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
I have tried to eliminate plastic tubing from my airplane to the extent possible;
it is incredibly unreliable. For those places where it does not seem possible
to eliminate it, and all you want is a vent, how about something like this
in 1/8 OD inside your plastic tubing instead of a spring? At 18 cents a foot,
you have nothing to lose...
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/nylaflow.php?clickkey=8311
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454472#454472
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kinked vent tube |
If the stock tubing is installed correctly, it normally doesn't crimp, but
Nyloflow tubing would certainly keep it from it.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2016 2:47 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kinked vent tube
-->
I have tried to eliminate plastic tubing from my airplane to the extent
possible; it is incredibly unreliable. For those places where it does not
seem possible to eliminate it, and all you want is a vent, how about
something like this in 1/8 OD inside your plastic tubing instead of a
spring? At 18 cents a foot, you have nothing to lose...
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/nylaflow.php?clickkey=8311
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454472#454472
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Sun and Fun 2016 |
Kolbers:
I'm getting ready to make my annual flight to Lakeland next week. Should
get down there Tuesday or Wednesday. Plan to stay until Saturday, then fly
back to Alabama.
Will be camping with my MKIII at the Kolb Aircraft Company display in
Paradise City. Have been able to do that for the past two years. Sure
makes it convenient to wake up and be at work.
Who plans to attend?
Come by and see me. Meeting old and new friends is what little airplanes is
all about.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Haven't missed Sun and Fun since my first one in 1984.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Warp Drive Prop For Sale |
Kolbers:
I have a WARP Drive Prop for sale:
71"
3 blade, tapered
SS leading edge protection
HPL Hub
Approximately 500.0 hours.
$545.00
If interested contact me back copy at:
jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Warp Drive Prop For Sale |
Kolbers:
Might help if I include the application of the WARP Drive Prop:
912UL, ULS, 914 Pusher
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: John Hauck [mailto:jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2016 9:32 PM
Subject: Warp Drive Prop For Sale
Kolbers:
I have a WARP Drive Prop for sale:
71"
3 blade, tapered
SS leading edge protection
HPL Hub
Approximately 500.0 hours.
$545.00
If interested contact me back copy at:
jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Installed New WARP Drive Prop |
Kolbers:
Installed a new 68" 3 blade prop today. It has straight blades. More blade
area, but probably will not have the twist of the tapered blade.
I have it propped for 5,400 rpm static.
Have not had a chance to test fly. Plan to test flyin in the morning. Have
no idea what it will turn WOT straight and level flight.
I went to a 68" prop to see if it will be a little quieter than the 71" with
tapered blades. Looks strange having so much clearance between prop tips
and tail boom. I have flown with 72" props and 3/4" tip clearance. Those
were really noisy, but climbed like crazy. Now days I am willing to give up
some performance if I can get "a little peace and quiets".
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skydiveal <skydiveal(at)aol.com> |
CiAgICAKCkhvcGUgdG8gc2VlIGEgbG90IG9mIGtvbGJlcnMgdGhlcmVMb29rIGZvciBtZSBhbmQg
bXkgZmlyZWZseSBJIGNhbGwgaGVyQUwgRk9SQ0UgT05FYWwgYmlsb2RlYXUKClNlbnQgdmlhIHRo
ZSBTYW1zdW5nIEdhbGF4eSBOb3Rlwq4gMywgYW4gQVQmVCA0RyBMVEUgc21hcnRwaG9uZQ=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Hawker Odyssey PC545 |
Kolbers:
Got ready to test my new WARP Drive Prop yesterday, only to find I had
forgotten to turn the Master Switch off last week. Zero battery. Jumped
the 912ULS to do my static test. Afterwards pulled the PC545 to discover it
was installed April 2007. It has been in the MKIII for 9 years, often
sitting for 4 or 5 months while I am busy traveling on the ground. I keep
it maintained with a very small solar cell charger/maintainer. It is always
hot and ready to start the 912ULS except when I forget the master switch.
Pulled the battery, brought it home to see if I could get it to recharge.
Took some finagling to get the charger to pick up the charge. Had to rig a
couple jumper wires from bad to a good battery with the charger hooked up to
the good battery. Eventually, the PC545 got enough charge for the
charger/good battery to begin doing its job. This morning the battery is
100%.
I'll reinstall this 9 year old battery to finish up my final prop check
flight tests. However, I'll have to go to town and see if I can find a
replacement to make my flight to Lakeland. Since I have never attempted to
hand prop the 912ULS, and doubt I ever will, I need a good, reliable battery
to depend on.
I think I got my money's worth out of this battery. Probably paid 90.00 for
it in 2007. That's 10.00 a year. I've used these batteries for many years.
Never had a problem with them. Wish I had more time before departure to
Lakeland. I would order this one today. 94.95 and free shipping.
http://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-pc545-battery.html
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hawker Odyssey PC545 |
It will be good to see you agin. We will be working the HQ TENT all week co
me look us up everyone=C2-
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 10:53 AM, John Hauck wrote:
Kolb-List message posted by: Dennis Rowe
I never use flaps on take off.
I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
I may be wrong.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, Rotax 670
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard wrote:
>
>
> New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. I
s there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have sta
ll speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems s
low, is my speed indicator off
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585
>
>
br> fts!)
r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.builde
rsbooks.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Kolb-List
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Green <bgreen(at)bimi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/07/16 |
Just reading the comments about flap use on take off and landing. Have not read
any statements about using flap retraction to allow the plane to settle to the
runway as a way to limit the plane from floating down the runway and using
up the runway. Once down to a foot or so above the runway the flaps can be retracted
on landing to shorten the landing. Definite coordination between elevator
control and flap retraction is absolutely necessary to keep nose attitude
correct. This procedure as well as extending the flaps to the full down position
once the aircraft has almost reached flying speed can shorten the take-off
roll. This works very well for very short take-offs, especially on rough fields.
There Must Be Care to Stay In Ground Effect Until Flying Airspeed Well
Established. These uses of flaps on landing and takeoff should not be the norm
but it is good that a pilot is aware and capable of flying his aircraft safely
using all the safe options.
Can be very useful when landing a plane on the colored dots at Oshkosh, but then
the Kolbs are not landing on 18 left and right or 36 left and right.
Lots of interesting input from vets like John Hauck.
Hope Sun-n-fun going well.
Bob
Mark3X with flaperons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
Not sure if I should keep the same thread????
A few weeks back a pilot was taking off from a local airport, tried to get
off the ground at minimum flying speed. After taking off the plane came
back to earth, hitting on the nose wheel bending it back, He continued
the takeoff, it was noticed by a CFI in the pattern. The CFI told him
to circle the pattern till the fire dept, ambulance, and cops could get
there. After touching down,, Instead of keeping the nose off the ground as
long as possible, he hit the brakes and nosed it in and went off the
runway and flipped it over. Everyone walked away, but it could have been
worse...
Moral of the story,, if you are going to attempt takeoffs at below safe
flying speed by pulling flaps,,, just know the possible consequences.
In all honestly, I don't know if he pulled flaps, tried to climb out of
ground effect before getting proper speed, or or moved his eyes to find
the trim lever. Doesn't mater. He still has a busted up plane.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/07/16 |
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
Bob/All
We are getting a bunch of posts on flaps.
It appears we need to specify when we are talking about flaperons or flaps.
I have never flown a plane with flaperons.
I have never heard of raising flaps to shorten the float down the runway
with a Kolb, interesting. I have heard of faster/heaver airplanes raising
flaps and/or spoilers to get more weight on the breaking wheels during roll
out. I use one notch of flaps(conventional flaps) to shorten the float in
the air and would go to full flaps if I wanted to stop quicker. Most of our
planes have the wheels a bit aft of the normal tail dragger configuration
which limits brake usage. Would be interesting to test this in the real
world.
Just returned from Sun-N-Fun. The Kolb gang and John Hauck are doing well.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC(conventional flaps)
On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Bob Green wrote:
>
> Just reading the comments about flap use on take off and landing. Have
> not read any statements about using flap retraction to allow the plane to
> settle to the runway as a way to limit the plane from floating down the
> runway and using up the runway. Once down to a foot or so above the runway
> the flaps can be retracted on landing to shorten the landing. Definite
> coordination between elevator control and flap retraction is absolutely
> necessary to keep nose attitude correct. This procedure as well as
> extending the flaps to the full down position once the aircraft has almost
> reached flying speed can shorten the take-off roll. This works very well
> for very short take-offs, especially on rough fields. There Must Be Care
> to Stay In Ground Effect Until Flying Airspeed Well Established. These
> uses of flaps on landing and takeoff should not be the norm but it is good
> that a pilot is aware and capable of flying his aircraft safely using all
> the safe options.
> Can be very useful when landing a plane on the colored dots at Oshkosh,
> but then the Kolbs are not landing on 18 left and right or 36 left and
> right.
> Lots of interesting input from vets like John Hauck.
> Hope Sun-n-fun going well.
> Bob
> Mark3X with flaperons
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Green <bgreen(at)bimi.org> |
| Subject: | RE: Flaps 04/08/16 |
B/Young:
Good example of what happens when an inexperienced pilot tries what only an experienced
pilot should do.
What was the instructor doing all this time while
the guy was bending his airplane and putting lives at risk?
My comments included paying attention to, "Flying speed, staying in ground effect,
and controlled use of flaps. My Kolb has
flaperons but the newer ones have flaps. In reality, not really necessary to get
a STOL take-off or landing with a Kolb.
The Kolb performs great by design.
You are right about the Kolb landing gear. The men like you and John H fly your
planes
(control them) til you have them tied down. That is of course what any safe pilot
does, especially when flying the
great little tail wheel airplanes designed by Homer Kolb. I was told when I received
my first Cessna 180 that it could be
worn as a "sombrero" if the pilot did not fly it instead of letting it fly him.
Too much brakes will result in most tail wheel
aircraft going over on its nose, leaving the pilot and passengers underneath it.
:-) Of course putting a tri-gear plane on
its back is more difficult but if one doesn't mind bending or breaking the nose
gear it can be done as in your illustration.
Your points are well stated.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop" technique used
in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a noticeable difference.
Bill Berle
I'm a little ahead of Bill B. I have used that technique since I started flying
a Kolb with flaps. About 24 years in my case.
Yes, it works quite well on "smaller" STOL aircraft. It is a great technique to
break free of tall grass, sand, mud. On one occasion I was taking off from
a private strip in a corn field in Indiana. It was raining cats and dogs. Water
was standing on the groomed grass strip. Lots of drag on my MKIII. The pop
up technique got me and the fully loaded MKIII, on return flight from Oshkosh,
up and away.
Most of the time I only use the pop up technique to show off if I have an audience.
;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Tired after 6.5 flight hours in rough air going the wrong direction.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
George A/Kolbers:
Had forgotten about that. Had a ball at John B's fly ins.
I use flaps unless I am encountering a bad cross wind, turbulence
landing, or those long, long paved airports. I like playing with them,
as I was at John B's. They are an effective tool. I was surprised at
how many MKIII owners do not take advantage of this capability.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Alexander
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flap usage
Watched John Hauck use this technique flying out of John Bickham's Nauga
Field.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com> |
I must have missed the post that described what a "pop" takeoff is, and how
it's done. From John's post I assume it has to do with how you use the fla
ps.
Would you please describe it?
Thanks -
Arty TrostSandy, Oregon=C2-www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: flap usage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop" techniqu
e used in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a noticeable di
fference.
Bill Berle
I'm a little ahead of Bill B.=C2- I have used that technique since I star
ted flying a Kolb with flaps.=C2- About 24 years in my case.
Yes, it works quite well on "smaller" STOL aircraft.=C2- It is a great te
chnique to break free of tall grass, sand, mud.=C2- On one occasion I was
taking off from a private strip in a corn field in Indiana.=C2- It was r
aining cats and dogs.=C2- Water was standing on the groomed grass strip.
=C2- Lots of drag on my MKIII.=C2- The pop up technique got me and the
fully loaded MKIII, on return flight from Oshkosh, up and away.
Most of the time I only use the pop up technique to show off if I have an a
udience.=C2- ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Tired after 6.5 flight hours in rough air going the wrong
direction.
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Arty/Kolbers:
I use the flaps to pop up off the ground before the MKIII is ready to
fly without flaps. Around 30 mph I pull full flaps, pop off the ground,
gain airspeed as I retract the flaps and climb out of ground effect.
When I depart my short grass strip on long cross country flights, or
with a passenger, I take off with half flaps, 20 degrees. This gets me
off the ground pretty quick, giving me a margin of safety with a heavier
load. On cross country flights I am at max gross, with full fuel, 150
lbs, and about 100-125 lbs of gear. There is more of a psychological
effect when taking off maxed out because I have been flying light and am
not used to the extra weight. After a few hours and take off and
landings, the max weight take offs become normal again. The first take
off after dumping all that gear is fuel, the MKIII is like a rocket
ship.
In extreme cases taking off with full flaps helps lighten the load on
the mains and gets it rolling in undesirable terrain.
I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.
john h
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TheWanderingWench
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
I must have missed the post that described what a "pop" takeoff is, and
how it's done. >From John's post I assume it has to do with how you use
the flaps.
Would you please describe it?
Thanks -
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
_____
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: flap usage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop"
technique used in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a
noticeable difference.
Bill Berle
I'm a little ahead of Bill B. I have used that technique since I
started flying a Kolb with flaps. About 24 years in my case.
Yes, it works quite well on "smaller" STOL aircraft. It is a great
technique to break free of tall grass, sand, mud. On one occasion I was
taking off from a private strip in a corn field in Indiana. It was
raining cats and dogs. Water was standing on the groomed grass strip.
Lots of drag on my MKIII. The pop up technique got me and the fully
loaded MKIII, on return flight from Oshkosh, up and away.
Most of the time I only use the pop up technique to show off if I have
an audience. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Tired after 6.5 flight hours in rough air going the
wrong direction.
http://www.matronics.com/Na - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -http <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
After a few hours and take off and landings, the max weight take offs
become normal again. The first take off after dumping all that gear
"and" fuel, the MKIII is like a rocket ship.
I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.
john h
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Kulp <undoctor(at)rcn.com> |
Hey Arty,
Haven't heard much from you since your epic journey. Nice to see you're
still hanging out!
There's an STOL competition up in Valdez, AK that I've watched a number
of years. Following is a link of the champ where you can plainly see
him working the flaps. I sometimes enviously watch a bird landing on a
tree branch and wish I were half that good at planting it. This guy
almost is!! Of course a plane coming to a stop with it's tail high in
the air and it's prob destroyed isn't unusual. Enjoy.
https://www.facebook.com/david.canales/videos/10153342548022718/?pnref=story
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
On 4/10/2016 9:52 AM, TheWanderingWench wrote:
> I must have missed the post that described what a "pop" takeoff is,
> and how it's done. >From John's post I assume it has to do with how
> you use the flaps.
>
> Would you please describe it?
>
> Thanks -
>
> Arty Trost
> Sandy, Oregon
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Very good example.
Sometimes I would like to see this competition conducted in a little or
no wind condition.
Having flown into Valdez in my MKIII, I know it can be very windy there.
Pretty obvious it was windy the day of the competition. Those guys are
good.
Two years ago, Steve Henry and Gary Haley (former member of the Kolb
List and flying buddy), flew to Valdez for the competition. Steve
placed 2d or 3d in his class flying a stock Just Highlander. Steve
flies out of Nampa, ID, and visits Larry Cottrell's Rock House
occasionally. Nice guy. Spent some time with Steve and Gary at
Lakeland last week.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Kulp
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Hey Arty,
Haven't heard much from you since your epic journey. Nice to see you're
still hanging out!
There's an STOL competition up in Valdez, AK that I've watched a number
of years. Following is a link of the champ where you can plainly see
him working the flaps. I sometimes enviously watch a bird landing on a
tree branch and wish I were half that good at planting it. This guy
almost is!! Of course a plane coming to a stop with it's tail high in
the air and it's prob destroyed isn't unusual. Enjoy.
https://www.facebook.com/david.canales/videos/10153342548022718/?pnref=
story
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
Here is a short video of a flight that I managed to squeeze in this
morning. There was a storm front due in mid morning, but I had a bit of
time to roll out the Firestar before it hit.
I flew over the area originally looking for a "reputed" Elk herd that was
supposed to have wintered there. I saw nothing then but I was at altitude
for that flight. This time I wanted to see if there were any shed antlers
that would have been left behind. For that I needed to be close to the
ground. Since that area burned about 3-4 years ago, anything left on the
ground would stick out like a sore thumb. The area seems ( to me) to be a
wind generator. There is always squirrely wind up there, so I needed to be
as early as I could get there with as little wind as possible.
https://vimeo.com/162304958
password- owyheeflyer
Larry
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com> |
<>
MY wife is lactose intolerant. I am just intolerant. Nice flight,
thanks again. Pat
From: Larry Cottrell
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 3:04 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: video
Here is a short video of a flight that I managed to squeeze in this
morning. There was a storm front due in mid morning, but I had a bit of
time to roll out the Firestar before it hit.
I flew over the area originally looking for a "reputed" Elk herd that
was supposed to have wintered there. I saw nothing then but I was at
altitude for that flight. This time I wanted to see if there were any
shed antlers that would have been left behind. For that I needed to be
close to the ground. Since that area burned about 3-4 years ago,
anything left on the ground would stick out like a sore thumb. The area
seems ( to me) to be a wind generator. There is always squirrely wind up
there, so I needed to be as early as I could get there with as little
wind as possible.
https://vimeo.com/162304958 password- owyheeflyer
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Last Flight 2005 |
Kolbers:
December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I, flew the
Texas coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we low
leveled the beach the entire way. We camped out on the airports. Miss
those days.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Last Flight 2005 |
" Kolbers:
December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley,
Ken Korenik and I, flew the Texas coast from Port Arthur to
Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we low leveled
the beach the entire way. We camped out on the
airports. Miss those days.
john hmkIIITitus,
Alabama"
Beautiful! What great adventures you have had with this aircraft, congratulations.
I hope I'm able to have half as much fun with mine.
Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted
and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone
have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as
a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, April 11, 2016, 4:34 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention |
Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint
them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose engine mount
bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces.
Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum
tubing.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted
and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone
have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as
a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails?
Bill Berle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
| Subject: | Last Flight 2005 |
Bill,
If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the alodine won't "stick" anyway.
After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got all set up to alodine them. Turned
out the only place it would take was the inside of the holes. The hinges
were either alclad or already alodined with clear chemical. The pretty gold colored
holes were quickly filled with stainless steel rivets so no one can see
anyway but I know they are protected. :)
You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube to see what effect it has.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
" Kolbers:
December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I, flew the Texas
coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we low leveled
the beach the entire way. We camped out on the airports. Miss those days.
john hmkIIITitus,
Alabama"
Beautiful! What great adventures you have had with this aircraft, congratulations.
I hope I'm able to have half as much fun with mine.
Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted
and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone
have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as
a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, April 11, 2016, 4:34 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Last Flight 2005 |
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
John
That was such a great photo. John W used to give me a rough time about how
wide a formation I would fly with you guys. You even got Gary H to move in
real tight. I missed Gary at Sun N Fun this year. Ken took a great photo.
Got talking about Monument Valley with the wife. She never saw the area. We
are going to take a side trip up there while visiting my mother in AZ this
year. Sure was neat seeing MV with all the Kolb people and planes at the
annual Kolb fly in. Do you think we will ever be able to get the new
generation of Kolb guys to gather like that.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 7:34 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> Kolbers:
>
>
> December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I, flew the
> Texas coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we
> low leveled the beach the entire way. We camped out on the airports. Miss
> those days.
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Last Flight 2005 |
>From 2003 to 2010, the Kolb Gang did not know what a great thing we had
going. Yeah, we knew it was great, and it kept getting better until the
end.
If someone wanted to do it again, I might be able to get these old bones
out there. I did fly into and spend the night in the pilot's lounge at
MV, Sep 2014. Wasn't the same without the Kolb Gang though, but just as
beautiful and mysterious. I love the place, the Navajos, and the
excitement of flying to and meeting there.
Right now I don't know of anyone who is making long or short cross
country flights in Kolbs.
I've been back a number of times since, on the ground. Still like it
always was.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
John
That was such a great photo. John W used to give me a rough time about
how wide a formation I would fly with you guys. You even got Gary H to
move in real tight. I missed Gary at Sun N Fun this year. Ken took a
great photo.
Got talking about Monument Valley with the wife. She never saw the area.
We are going to take a side trip up there while visiting my mother in AZ
this year. Sure was neat seeing MV with all the Kolb people and planes
at the annual Kolb fly in. Do you think we will ever be able to get the
new generation of Kolb guys to gather like that.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Last Flight 2005 |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Stuart,
Not meaning to take a poke at you personally, but... Alodine doesn't
'stick' to the aluminum. It is a 'conversion' process. It basically
corrodes the microscopic top layer of the aluminum, forming an
'converted' (basically a modified oxide) layer that prevents further
corrosion of the underlying aluminum. (Very non-tech, layman's description)
Alodine works fine on alclad (typically 2024 alloy with pure aluminum
coating to protect the corrosion prone 2024), and also works fine on
6061 alloy which doesn't need the alclad to protect it. I can personally
testify to it working on both, because both alloys are used in the RV-7
I'm building, and I've personally treated both alloys successfully.
The hinges you attempted to treat were almost certainly 6061 or similar
alloy, without any cladding. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that you
didn't get the surface perfectly clean and free of oils/other
contamination, and/or you didn't properly acid etch the parts prior to
the treatment attempt. All aluminum has a layer of corrosion on its
surface, if it's been exposed to air for more than a few minutes. The
alodine cannot 'convert' this layer of oxide; it can only work on
aluminum itself. It cannot work through any contaminants, either. The
likely reason you got conversion in the holes and not the surface is
that the act of drilling the holes removed the contaminants and the
corrosion layer.
I don't know what alloys are used in Kolbs, but I'd bet that any
extruded parts (angle, plate, etc) are 6061 and tubing is also 6061,
except for non-structural stuff like aluminum fuel line, which is
usually 3000 series alloy. Aluminum sheet could be either 6061 or 2024,
but is probably 6061.
6061 is pretty corrosion resistant, so unless the plane will be tied
down outside or lives near salt water, alodine might not be *needed*,
but it never hurts.
With 2024, the alodine process provides an extra 'layer' of protection
in addition to the alclad.
Tests have shown that alodine provides as much protection from corrosion
as the best epoxies or any other actual paint/coating process.
FWIW,
Charlie
On 4/12/2016 8:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the alodine won't "stick" anyway.
>
> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got all set up to alodine them.
Turned out the only place it would take was the inside of the holes. The hinges
were either alclad or already alodined with clear chemical. The pretty gold
colored holes were quickly filled with stainless steel rivets so no one can see
anyway but I know they are protected. :)
>
> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube to see what effect it has.
>
> Stuart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:04 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
>
>
> " Kolbers:
> December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I, flew the Texas
coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we low leveled
the beach the entire way. We camped out on the airports. Miss those
days.
> john hmkIIITitus,
> Alabama"
>
> Beautiful! What great adventures you have had with this aircraft, congratulations.
I hope I'm able to have half as much fun with mine.
>
> Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted
and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does
anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion
as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails?
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Last Flight 2005 |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
6061-T6 is not alclad.... 2024-t? is alclad...meaning...that at the
mill..the ingot is covered on both sides with a plate of nearly pure
aluminum... then sent down the rolling mill...the ingot is rolled into
ever thinning sheet...starting with an ingot of nearly 2 feet thick and
maybe 12 feet long? Comes out the other end and is rolled into a spool
several thousand feet long..depending on the final thickness.
the reason to clad 2024 is because of its considerable copper content...
Eventually planes with 2024 sheet, if polished too much , will wear
through back to the 2024 base metal... Herb
On 04/12/2016 08:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the alodine won't "stick" anyway.
>
> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got all set up to alodine them.
Turned out the only place it would take was the inside of the holes. The hinges
were either alclad or already alodined with clear chemical. The pretty gold
colored holes were quickly filled with stainless steel rivets so no one can see
anyway but I know they are protected. :)
>
> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube to see what effect it has.
>
> Stuart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:04 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
>
>
> " Kolbers:
> December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I, flew the Texas
coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we low leveled
the beach the entire way. We camped out on the airports. Miss those
days.
> john hmkIIITitus,
> Alabama"
>
> Beautiful! What great adventures you have had with this aircraft, congratulations.
I hope I'm able to have half as much fun with mine.
>
> Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted
and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does
anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion
as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails?
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016, 4:34 PM
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Yep...the only reason to clad 2024 has to do with the inevitable
corrosion of the high copper content of the alloy..
6061 has a considerable content of Magnesium and Manganese... and
the base metal oxidizes to form the protective barrier...which suffices
on our Kolbs... Most of it is mill marked with Chandler Aluminum in
Arizona and with the 6061 t6 designation...
I rebuilt a 20 some year old Ultrastar wreck...and the good parts
were as sound as a current model... even the steel rivets used back
then were serviceable...and much easier to drill out... the feared
galvanic effect is not a worry IMHO!! At least over the life of our
planes, based on that experience..
I worked at Kaiser Aluminum for a time...in the lab and on the floor
at all stages of aluminum production..but my memory is vague now... Herb
On 04/12/2016 11:56 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> Stuart,
>
> Not meaning to take a poke at you personally, but... Alodine doesn't
> 'stick' to the aluminum. It is a 'conversion' process. It basically
> corrodes the microscopic top layer of the aluminum, forming an
> 'converted' (basically a modified oxide) layer that prevents further
> corrosion of the underlying aluminum. (Very non-tech, layman's
> description)
>
> Alodine works fine on alclad (typically 2024 alloy with pure aluminum
> coating to protect the corrosion prone 2024), and also works fine on
> 6061 alloy which doesn't need the alclad to protect it. I can
> personally testify to it working on both, because both alloys are used
> in the RV-7 I'm building, and I've personally treated both alloys
> successfully.
>
> The hinges you attempted to treat were almost certainly 6061 or
> similar alloy, without any cladding. If I were a betting man, I'd bet
> that you didn't get the surface perfectly clean and free of oils/other
> contamination, and/or you didn't properly acid etch the parts prior to
> the treatment attempt. All aluminum has a layer of corrosion on its
> surface, if it's been exposed to air for more than a few minutes. The
> alodine cannot 'convert' this layer of oxide; it can only work on
> aluminum itself. It cannot work through any contaminants, either. The
> likely reason you got conversion in the holes and not the surface is
> that the act of drilling the holes removed the contaminants and the
> corrosion layer.
>
> I don't know what alloys are used in Kolbs, but I'd bet that any
> extruded parts (angle, plate, etc) are 6061 and tubing is also 6061,
> except for non-structural stuff like aluminum fuel line, which is
> usually 3000 series alloy. Aluminum sheet could be either 6061 or
> 2024, but is probably 6061.
>
> 6061 is pretty corrosion resistant, so unless the plane will be tied
> down outside or lives near salt water, alodine might not be *needed*,
> but it never hurts.
>
> With 2024, the alodine process provides an extra 'layer' of protection
> in addition to the alclad.
>
> Tests have shown that alodine provides as much protection from
> corrosion as the best epoxies or any other actual paint/coating process.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/12/2016 8:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the alodine won't
>> "stick" anyway.
>>
>> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got all set up to
>> alodine them. Turned out the only place it would take was the inside
>> of the holes. The hinges were either alclad or already alodined with
>> clear chemical. The pretty gold colored holes were quickly filled
>> with stainless steel rivets so no one can see anyway but I know they
>> are protected. :)
>>
>> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube to see what effect
>> it has.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:04 PM
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
>>
>>
>> " Kolbers:
>> December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I,
>> flew the Texas coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot
>> of fun, as we low leveled the beach the entire way. We camped out on
>> the airports. Miss those days.
>> john hmkIIITitus,
>> Alabama"
>>
>> Beautiful! What great adventures you have had with this aircraft,
>> congratulations. I hope I'm able to have half as much fun with mine.
>>
>> Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side
>> cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the
>> second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using
>> Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive
>> treatment on the aluminum tails?
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light
>> aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for
>> non-profit and for-profit entities
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Wondering how many have seen this...? Called the Fourstar...one of a
kind...Bill Bronson of the St. Louis area designed and built it using
Firestar parts...
I have enough parts to build it...and the less than 2 gal an hour
consumption of my Global engine is desirable...
With my memory...may have sent this before...?? Herb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
Does it count that it is Ugly?
Larry
On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Herb wrote:
>
> Wondering how many have seen this...? Called the Fourstar...one of a
> kind...Bill Bronson of the St. Louis area designed and built it using
> Firestar parts...
>
> I have enough parts to build it...and the less than 2 gal an hour
> consumption of my Global engine is desirable...
>
> With my memory...may have sent this before...?? Herb
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pcking" <pc.king(at)comcast.net> |
Why couldn't half a VW be mounted in place of a 447 instead of
re-engineering the nose?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Herb" <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 2:50 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Fourstar
>
> Wondering how many have seen this...? Called the Fourstar...one of a
> kind...Bill Bronson of the St. Louis area designed and built it using
> Firestar parts...
>
> I have enough parts to build it...and the less than 2 gal an hour
> consumption of my Global engine is desirable...
>
> With my memory...may have sent this before...?? Herb
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs... |
This raises a question for me... I tried to drill out some of the rivets that were
used by the original builder to build the tails (damaged in shipping), and
it was very very difficult to do it without damaging the parts under the rivets.
Drilling off the heads was possible, but pounding the stems out of the holes
without collapsing or denting the tubes was very difficult.
Are there more than one type of rivets that are considered acceptable for the Kolb?
Anything other than Stainless? Are the Avex rivets (used on the Zenair) seen
as acceptable?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/12/16, Herb wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2016, 11:18 AM
Herb
Yep...the only reason to clad 2024 has to do with the
inevitable
corrosion of the high copper content of the alloy..
6061 has a considerable content of
Magnesium and Manganese... and
the base metal oxidizes to form the protective
barrier...which suffices
on our Kolbs... Most of it is mill marked with Chandler
Aluminum in
Arizona and with the 6061 t6 designation...
I rebuilt a 20 some year old Ultrastar
wreck...and the good parts
were as sound as a current model... even the steel
rivets used back
then were serviceable...and much easier to drill out... the
feared
galvanic effect is not a worry IMHO!! At least over the life
of our
planes, based on that experience..
I worked at Kaiser Aluminum for a
time...in the lab and on the floor
at all stages of aluminum production..but my memory is vague
now... Herb
On 04/12/2016 11:56 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> Stuart,
>
> Not meaning to take a poke at you personally, but...
Alodine doesn't
> 'stick' to the aluminum. It is a 'conversion' process.
It basically
> corrodes the microscopic top layer of the aluminum,
forming an
> 'converted' (basically a modified oxide) layer that
prevents further
> corrosion of the underlying aluminum. (Very non-tech,
layman's
> description)
>
> Alodine works fine on alclad (typically 2024 alloy with
pure aluminum
> coating to protect the corrosion prone 2024), and also
works fine on
> 6061 alloy which doesn't need the alclad to protect it.
I can
> personally testify to it working on both, because both
alloys are used
> in the RV-7 I'm building, and I've personally treated
both alloys
> successfully.
>
> The hinges you attempted to treat were almost certainly
6061 or
> similar alloy, without any cladding. If I were a
betting man, I'd bet
> that you didn't get the surface perfectly clean and
free of oils/other
> contamination, and/or you didn't properly acid etch the
parts prior to
> the treatment attempt. All aluminum has a layer of
corrosion on its
> surface, if it's been exposed to air for more than a
few minutes. The
> alodine cannot 'convert' this layer of oxide; it can
only work on
> aluminum itself. It cannot work through any
contaminants, either. The
> likely reason you got conversion in the holes and not
the surface is
> that the act of drilling the holes removed the
contaminants and the
> corrosion layer.
>
> I don't know what alloys are used in Kolbs, but I'd bet
that any
> extruded parts (angle, plate, etc) are 6061 and tubing
is also 6061,
> except for non-structural stuff like aluminum fuel
line, which is
> usually 3000 series alloy. Aluminum sheet could be
either 6061 or
> 2024, but is probably 6061.
>
> 6061 is pretty corrosion resistant, so unless the plane
will be tied
> down outside or lives near salt water, alodine might
not be *needed*,
> but it never hurts.
>
> With 2024, the alodine process provides an extra
'layer' of protection
> in addition to the alclad.
>
> Tests have shown that alodine provides as much
protection from
> corrosion as the best epoxies or any other actual
paint/coating process.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/12/2016 8:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the
alodine won't
>> "stick" anyway.
>>
>> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got
all set up to
>> alodine them. Turned out the only place it would
take was the inside
>> of the holes. The hinges were either alclad or
already alodined with
>> clear chemical. The pretty gold colored holes were
quickly filled
>> with stainless steel rivets so no one can see
anyway but I know they
>> are protected. :)
>>
>> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube
to see what effect
>> it has.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:04 PM
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
>>
>>
>> " Kolbers:
>> December 2005, John Williamson, Gary
Haley, Ken Korenik and I,
>> flew the Texas coast from Port Arthur to
Brownsville. It was a lot
>> of fun, as we low leveled the beach the
entire way. We camped out on
>> the airports. Miss those days.
>> john hmkIIITitus,
>>Alabama"
>>
>> Beautiful!What great adventures
you have had with this aircraft,
>> congratulations. I hope I'm able to have half as
much fun with mine.
>>
>> Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit
Saturday, got one side
>> cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start
cutting tubes for the
>> second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for
or againsit using
>> Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight
corrosion preventive
>> treatment on the aluminum tails?
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety &
performance upgrade for light
>> aircraft www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for
>> non-profit and for-profit entities
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck
wrote:
>>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr.
Foster...Third red light and turn left.
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
| Subject: | Last Flight 2005 |
Charlie,
No offense taken.
Actually I put "stick" in quotes specifically for that reason. I understand the
chemical process but chose not to delve into it as college chemistry classes
were 35+ years ago.
These days I have to look up most stuff as memory isn't what it once was. :(
S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
Stuart,
Not meaning to take a poke at you personally, but... Alodine doesn't 'stick' to
the aluminum. It is a 'conversion' process. It basically corrodes the microscopic
top layer of the aluminum, forming an 'converted' (basically a modified oxide)
layer that prevents further corrosion of the underlying aluminum. (Very
non-tech, layman's description)
Alodine works fine on alclad (typically 2024 alloy with pure aluminum coating to
protect the corrosion prone 2024), and also works fine on
6061 alloy which doesn't need the alclad to protect it. I can personally testify
to it working on both, because both alloys are used in the RV-7 I'm building,
and I've personally treated both alloys successfully.
The hinges you attempted to treat were almost certainly 6061 or similar alloy,
without any cladding. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that you didn't get the
surface perfectly clean and free of oils/other contamination, and/or you didn't
properly acid etch the parts prior to the treatment attempt. All aluminum has
a layer of corrosion on its surface, if it's been exposed to air for more than
a few minutes. The alodine cannot 'convert' this layer of oxide; it can only
work on aluminum itself. It cannot work through any contaminants, either. The
likely reason you got conversion in the holes and not the surface is that the
act of drilling the holes removed the contaminants and the corrosion layer.
I don't know what alloys are used in Kolbs, but I'd bet that any extruded parts
(angle, plate, etc) are 6061 and tubing is also 6061, except for non-structural
stuff like aluminum fuel line, which is usually 3000 series alloy. Aluminum
sheet could be either 6061 or 2024, but is probably 6061.
6061 is pretty corrosion resistant, so unless the plane will be tied down outside
or lives near salt water, alodine might not be *needed*, but it never hurts.
With 2024, the alodine process provides an extra 'layer' of protection in addition
to the alclad.
Tests have shown that alodine provides as much protection from corrosion as the
best epoxies or any other actual paint/coating process.
FWIW,
Charlie
On 4/12/2016 8:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:
> -->
>
> Bill,
>
> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the alodine won't "stick" anyway.
>
> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got all set up to alodine
> them. Turned out the only place it would take was the inside of the
> holes. The hinges were either alclad or already alodined with clear
> chemical. The pretty gold colored holes were quickly filled with
> stainless steel rivets so no one can see anyway but I know they are
> protected. :)
>
> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube to see what effect it has.
>
> Stuart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:04 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005
>
> -->
>
> " Kolbers:
> December 2005, John Williamson, Gary Haley, Ken Korenik and I, flew the Texas
coast from Port Arthur to Brownsville. It was a lot of fun, as we low leveled
the beach the entire way. We camped out on the airports. Miss those
days.
> john hmkIIITitus,
> Alabama"
>
> Beautiful! What great adventures you have had with this aircraft, congratulations.
I hope I'm able to have half as much fun with mine.
>
> Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted
and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does
anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion
as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails?
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 4/11/16, John Hauck wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs... |
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
For corrosion protection on my mkiii .. Before I put on fabric I took a
syringe, loaded it up with epoxy primer, then put a drip or two on each
joint. I let capliary attraction pull the primer into the joints. 2
things, it should keep moisture and corrosion out of metal to metal
contacts, and if it helped to stabilize the joints,,,, all the better....
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs... |
This raises a question for me... I tried to drill out some of the rivets that were
used by the original builder to build the tails (damaged in shipping), and
it was very very difficult to do it without damaging the parts under the rivets.
Drilling off the heads was possible, but pounding the stems out of the holes
without collapsing or denting the tubes was very difficult.
Are there more than one type of rivets that are considered acceptable for the Kolb?
Anything other than Stainless? Are the Avex rivets (used on the Zenair) seen
as acceptable?
Bill Berle
Kolbers:
Carbon and SS pop rivets use hardened steel mandrels. If an 1/8" bit comes in
contact with the mandrel, the mandrel wins very quickly.
I have rebuilt all three of my Kolbs, which required a lot of rivet drilling to
remove. Learned a few tricks over the years doing that.
First, drive out the old mandrel prior to a drilling attempt. You can buy a 1/16"
punch that works great, or use spent mandrels. First grind one end square
(flat). Use small Vise Grips to hold the mandrel. The drive them out.
To prevent the rivet from spinning while drilling I made a small tool out of a
piece of hack saw blade. I grind a notch in one end, beveling on one edge. Push
this under the rivet head as far as possible to lock the rivet.
If the rivet is not for a structural part, I use common hardware store aluminum
rivets. Easy to drill out. All my Lexan is attached with aluminum rivets.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
That it is...sometimes in the eyes of the beholder...but in this
case...bet the decision will be unanimous...! :-)
just something I have had on my mind for some time... sort of a
disease I guess?? Not sure it can be prettied up...?? Herb
On 04/12/2016 01:58 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> Does it count that it is Ugly?
> Larry
>
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Herb > wrote:
>
>
> Wondering how many have seen this...? Called the Fourstar...one
> of a kind...Bill Bronson of the St. Louis area designed and built
> it using Firestar parts...
>
> I have enough parts to build it...and the less than 2 gal an hour
> consumption of my Global engine is desirable...
>
> With my memory...may have sent this before...?? Herb
>
>
> --
> /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant
> of others./
> /
> /
> /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending./
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
That has been done already....A fellow from East Tenn....sent the engine
to the Kolb flyin one year...mounted on an early Firestar 1. The engine
was later mounted on his Firefly... The engine had dual ignition which
required that it be started with the electronic ign disabled....Poor
fellow forgot and messed hp his hand really bad...
then he crashed and the wife put her foot down..! end of story...
The half vw engine is well proven and reliable...more so in a tractor
configuration.. Mine idles smoothly at 600 rpm but had a bit of
vibration at cruise...2850 or so.. balancing the reciprocating and
rotating parts helps quite a bit... and I would do that if I follow
through with this project...Herb
On 04/12/2016 02:06 PM, pcking wrote:
>
>
> Why couldn't half a VW be mounted in place of a 447 instead of
> re-engineering the nose?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 2:50 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Fourstar
>
>
>>
>> Wondering how many have seen this...? Called the Fourstar...one of a
>> kind...Bill Bronson of the St. Louis area designed and built it using
>> Firestar parts...
>>
>> I have enough parts to build it...and the less than 2 gal an hour
>> consumption of my Global engine is desirable...
>>
>> With my memory...may have sent this before...?? Herb
>>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I think someone noticed that Bryan uses , likely non acetic , silicone
to seal the tube ends from bugs and the like...probably moisture also..Herb
On 04/12/2016 02:45 PM, B Young wrote:
>
> For corrosion protection on my mkiii .. Before I put on fabric I
> took a syringe, loaded it up with epoxy primer, then put a drip or
> two on each joint. I let capliary attraction pull the primer into the
> joints. 2 things, it should keep moisture and corrosion out of
> metal to metal contacts, and if it helped to stabilize the joints,,,,
> all the better....
>
> Boyd Young
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
In a very tough case...grinding the head off with a dremel tool works...
Herb
On 04/12/2016 03:06 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
>
> This raises a question for me... I tried to drill out some of the rivets that
were used by the original builder to build the tails (damaged in shipping), and
it was very very difficult to do it without damaging the parts under the rivets.
Drilling off the heads was possible, but pounding the stems out of the holes
without collapsing or denting the tubes was very difficult.
>
> Are there more than one type of rivets that are considered acceptable for the
Kolb? Anything other than Stainless? Are the Avex rivets (used on the Zenair)
seen as acceptable?
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
>
>
> Kolbers:
>
> Carbon and SS pop rivets use hardened steel mandrels. If an 1/8" bit comes in
contact with the mandrel, the mandrel wins very quickly.
>
> I have rebuilt all three of my Kolbs, which required a lot of rivet drilling
to remove. Learned a few tricks over the years doing that.
>
> First, drive out the old mandrel prior to a drilling attempt. You can buy a
1/16" punch that works great, or use spent mandrels. First grind one end square
(flat). Use small Vise Grips to hold the mandrel. The drive them out.
>
> To prevent the rivet from spinning while drilling I made a small tool out of
a piece of hack saw blade. I grind a notch in one end, beveling on one edge.
Push this under the rivet head as far as possible to lock the rivet.
>
> If the rivet is not for a structural part, I use common hardware store aluminum
rivets. Easy to drill out. All my Lexan is attached with aluminum rivets.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firestar tail boom length... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Could call Bryan...but someone will know....what is the length of the
tail boom on the Firestar 1? Probably the same on the II also? Herb
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firestar tail boom length... |
| From: | Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
pardon the "also"...:-) grammatically incorrect Herb
On 04/12/2016 03:26 PM, Herb wrote:
>
> Could call Bryan...but someone will know....what is the length of the
> tail boom on the Firestar 1? Probably the same on the II also? Herb
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Last Flight 2005 |
| From: | "Leland.Lam" <wadelamoreaux(at)gmail.com> |
"If someone wanted to do it again, I might be able to get these old bones out there.
I did fly into and spend the night in the pilot's lounge at MV, Sep 2014.
Wasn't the same without the Kolb Gang though, but just as beautiful and mysterious.
I love the place, the Navajos, and the excitement of flying to and
meeting there.
Right now I don't know of anyone who is making long or short cross country flights
in Kolbs.
I've been back a number of times since, on the ground. Still like it always was."
John,
If you ever get another trip together you can count me and the ole Craw-Gator in.
I know the plane was there before, but not with me. I would love a MV trip.
Leland[/quote]
--------
Kolb Mark III Classic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454915#454915
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firestar tail boom length... |
13 feet on the FireStar 2.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/12/16, Herb wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar tail boom length...
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2016, 1:26 PM
Herb
Could call Bryan...but someone will know....what is the
length of the
tail boom on the Firestar 1? Probably the same on the
II also?Herb
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
March 22, 2016 - April 12, 2016
Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-nt