Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-om
April 03, 2017 - April 26, 2017
>
> I usually land a little faster and it has not been a big deal, but it is
real..
>
> Thanks again for making me think about it and visualize what may be
happening in real life.
>
> In the end , understanding the effects and being ready makes one fly
safer.
>
> Happy landings
> FrankD
> N1014S, MkIII Xtra
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468002#468002
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: : VG's: VG's |
""If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your
piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.""
I found that to be correct, when flying a passenger, I come over the
fence at 70. Hit the numbers at 65 and maintain power till the wheels
touch. I'm going to have to practice more with the vg's, but I'm sure
changes are due.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: : VG's: VG's |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Me neither John..My Kolbs flew just great...no complaints...Never had to
use those wimpy stickums...!! :-)
On 04/03/2017 08:15 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Don't think we have an aircraft design problem, but "maybe" a piloting
> problem.
>
> If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your
> piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.
>
> The basic design of the Kolb tail section has never changed, except small
> differences in size.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hoppy
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 7:28 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: : VG's: VG's
>
>
> Interesting conversation all..
>
> My problem is considering the tail as aerodynamic...on the Kolbs...
> I only see separation as the air hits the leading edge... certainly not an
> airfoil in the classical sense and definitely not laminar... More
> like a barn door...:-) A symmetrical airfoil is common on most
> planes...as in "not flat". Seems to me that an all moving elevator would
> work and likely could be much smaller... and could still fold...
>
> Herb...who talked to an aerodynamicist once... ( he likely could not
> spell it either:-) )
>
>
> On 04/03/2017 06:37 PM, Frankd wrote:
>>
>> Hello group,
>> I have been reading and learning about the topic of Tail Stall.. thank you
> all.
>> I fly a MkIII Xtra and limit my passengers to 200Lbs or less, because of
> the issue with losing elevator authority during flare.
>> I did not think "Tail Stall" existed but maybe I am wrong. Technically,
> if a stall is where the air separates from the surface of a wing (or tail)
> then perhaps that is what is happening when I have a heavy passenger. This
> passenger moves the CG forward and this weight shift is offset by the use of
> "Up" elevator.
>> When landing and decreasing the airspeed the airflow over the elevator in
> a full "UP" position could separate from the underside of the elevator and
> that would explain why adding more back stick does nothing..
>> All the remedies support this theory:-
>> a/ Add a gap seal - keeps the airflow flowing from top of Horz. Stab to
> bottom of elevator
>> b/ Add VG's to bottom of Horz Stab - keep the air attached to the bottom
> of the elevator when the stick is full back thus making the elevator more
> effective
>> c/ Land faster - the faster airflow over the elevator increases authority
> with less back pressure, thus reducing airflow separation.
>> d/ move the CG back. Some aircraft have weight boxes in the tail so that
> CG is controlled by adding a small weight on a long lever, effectively
> offsetting the passenger weight somewhat , reducing the workload on the
> elevator and making it more effective with smaller stick movements. (I have
> not tried this but am thinking of moving one of my fuel tanks to a back
> position when flying passengers to see what happens. )
>> I usually land a little faster and it has not been a big deal, but it is
> real..
>> Thanks again for making me think about it and visualize what may be
> happening in real life.
>> In the end , understanding the effects and being ready makes one fly
> safer.
>> Happy landings
>> FrankD
>> N1014S, MkIII Xtra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468002#468002
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: : VG's: VG's |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I flew only one passenger in my old MkIII...and he was pretty lite...so
I added maybe 10 mph on approach...Herb
On 04/03/2017 08:25 PM, B Young wrote:
>
> ""If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your
> piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.""
>
> I found that to be correct, when flying a passenger, I come over the
> fence at 70. Hit the numbers at 65 and maintain power till the
> wheels touch. I'm going to have to practice more with the vg's, but
> I'm sure changes are due.
>
> Boyd
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
For 900 hours I figured I had a good handling plane... I had an expensive
lesson at 118 hours, I was too close to the ground to recover...
afterwards I modified the way I flew the plane...
For years I refused the thought of vgs. After putting them on,,, wish I
had done it long long ago. I would say don't knock it till you try it.
I truly believe that if I had had vgs on the horizontals, my expensive
lesson would have been a non event.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
Should have thought to add,,, if you try vgs and don't like them, I
promise to listen and try to learn. At that point let's compare notes.
If you reject vgs on principle,,, you are now where I was a few months ago.
My position is clear and have backed it up with numbers. If you are
apposed, let me see your numbers., Angles, speeds,responsiveness, etc.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: : VG's: VG's |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
John Hauck wrote:
>
> Giving a demo flight in my MKIII at Lakeland some years ago, I was able to easily
lose all elevator authority, almost without trying. We were out
> horsing around, I told my passenger, "Let's try a steep dive to about 85 mph
and a hard pull up with full flaps." We had already done the same clean.
> To my surprise, when I pulled back on the stick the aircraft continued
> straight down until I pulled up the flaps and then back on the stick. A
> good demonstration of the flaps stealing air from the tail.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
> --
I partially agree that the flaps do steal the airflow over the elevators, but I
think an even bigger factor is that lowering the flaps moves the center of lift
aft. We both know that lowering the flaps on a MKIII Classic requires cranking
in substantial amounts of up elevator trim, even when solo. IMO, the effect
of the flaps to move the center of lift/pressure aft is at least as significant
as what the flaps do to the airflow over the horizontal tail.
Unfortunately, it typically all comes together to conspire against us when we least
desire it...
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468011#468011
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: : VG's: VG's |
I tested a Mk IIIX to 1280 lb with cement bags in the passenger seat. With
seals on the stabilizer to boom tube gap I could hold it in a stall for
over 1000 feet and keep the wings level with the rudder. When I released
the stick she started flying again. Landing at that weight was a bit like
Pete Knight described flying the X15, "it's like milking a nervous mouse,
you just don't want to make any sudden moves".
Rick Girard
On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> I flew only one passenger in my old MkIII...and he was pretty lite...so I
> added maybe 10 mph on approach...Herb
>
>
> On 04/03/2017 08:25 PM, B Young wrote:
>
>>
>> ""If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your
>> piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.""
>>
>> I found that to be correct, when flying a passenger, I come over the
>> fence at 70. Hit the numbers at 65 and maintain power till the whe
els
>> touch. I'm going to have to practice more with the vg's, but I'm sure
>> changes are due.
>>
>> Boyd
>>
>>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: : VG's: VG's |
Yep, I am well aware of what takes place when the flaps are drooped. Takes
a lot more aft stick to keep the nose up. However, in an 85 mph dive,
straight down, pull back on the stick and nothing happens, no resistance, to
me, sitting in the driver's seat, got the impression there was no air on the
elevators. Soon as I pulled up flaps, I got resistance and the nose came
right up.
I got the same feel and sensation in 1990, when the leading edges of both
wings failed. There was no feeling in elevator, rudder, or ailerons. Just
like sitting on the ground dead still. At 75 mph I should have had some
resistance in the controls, unless they had all gotten blanked out by the
two new spoilers on the wings.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:30 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: : VG's: VG's
-->
John Hauck wrote:
>
> Giving a demo flight in my MKIII at Lakeland some years ago, I was
> able to easily lose all elevator authority, almost without trying. We
were out horsing around, I told my passenger, "Let's try a steep dive to
about 85 mph and a hard pull up with full flaps." We had already done the
same clean.
> To my surprise, when I pulled back on the stick the aircraft continued
> straight down until I pulled up the flaps and then back on the stick.
> A good demonstration of the flaps stealing air from the tail.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
> --
I partially agree that the flaps do steal the airflow over the elevators,
but I think an even bigger factor is that lowering the flaps moves the
center of lift aft. We both know that lowering the flaps on a MKIII Classic
requires cranking in substantial amounts of up elevator trim, even when
solo. IMO, the effect of the flaps to move the center of lift/pressure aft
is at least as significant as what the flaps do to the airflow over the
horizontal tail.
Unfortunately, it typically all comes together to conspire against us when
we least desire it...
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468011#468011
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Don't know about Kolbs (yet) but tail stall isn't that uncommon in other
a/c. The early Cessna Cardinal required a stabilator redesign due to
tail stall.
If answers are desired about whether there's a tail stall problem with a
particular plane, why not install an angle of attack meter? Doesn't have
to be high dollar; just an indicator that has consistent, repeatable
readings.
The wing always stalls at the same angle of attack. If the plane stalls
at some arbitrary angle indication ('x') on your AOA when the plane is
lightly loaded, and it stalls at some lower angle (y?) on the same
indicator when heavily loaded and/or at a more forward CG, then the tail
has stalled instead of the wing. If the plane stalls at the same AOA
indication but a higher airspeed, then it's the wing that's stalling.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion. Boyd's and John's
problem concerned weight and CG change, caused by weight. I believe
that the original beginning of this thread came about concerning VG's
on the wing, but none on the elevator. Perhaps the language or
description of the reasoning for why one should also put them on the
elevator was inadequate.
The "tail stall" that did or did not occur during landing was not a
problem in any other configuration other than landings. Even when it
did occur upon landing, it was in no way any more than a Hmmm factor
of about 1. It was just that I like others before me had learned, that
the wing still had lift, with VG's, long after the tail had dropped to
the ground. Since this was occurring at 2 feet above the ground, it
was not Scary! It certainly is not a design flaw. :-) Merely that you
now had a lot more usable lift than you had before the installation of
VG's, and you could even out the lift between the wing and the
elevator by adding some of the little thingys on the elevator.
There! I hope that clears things up a bit.
Larry
On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> Don't know about Kolbs (yet) but tail stall isn't that uncommon in other
> a/c. The early Cessna Cardinal required a stabilator redesign due to tail
> stall.
>
> If answers are desired about whether there's a tail stall problem with a
> particular plane, why not install an angle of attack meter? Doesn't have to
> be high dollar; just an indicator that has consistent, repeatable readings.
>
> The wing always stalls at the same angle of attack. If the plane stalls at
> some arbitrary angle indication ('x') on your AOA when the plane is lightly
> loaded, and it stalls at some lower angle (y?) on the same indicator when
> heavily loaded and/or at a more forward CG, then the tail has stalled
> instead of the wing. If the plane stalls at the same AOA indication but a
> higher airspeed, then it's the wing that's stalling.
>
> Charlie
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
Larry C/Kolbers:
I didn't fly yesterday, and I forgot what I did day before yesterday. Think I
put VGs on the horizontal stabilizer. ;-)
My job for many, many years was to fly prospective customers in the MKIII at Lakeland
and Oshkosh. I flew all kinds of shapes and sizes in a difficult environment
at best, lots of traffic, confined airstrip, wind, and turbulence. Never
had a elevator problem. On several occasions I did use extreme vigilance and
care flying a few super heavy passengers. Something I should not have done
at the time, and something I would not do in the future. One situation the customer
would not buy the airplane without a ride first. It was not the best
flying MKIII I had ever flown. I was pretty apprehensive about the flight. I
agreed to fly him out of Lakeland South where I had a lot more airstrip and less
traffic. This guy was what I called a "lopper". When he got in the right
seat he lopped over the aileron torque tube in the center of the aircraft. Made
it difficult for me to get my hand on the center mounted throttle. This was
a short flight, full throttle from take off to landing, one circuit around
the pattern. I was not going to take a chance of becoming a lawn dart.
I've never flown a Kolb that had an elevator problem, but when I was carrying large
passengers I always carried a little extra airspeed until I was back on the
ground.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack
-->
This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion. Boyd's and John's problem
concerned weight and CG change, caused by weight. I believe that the original
beginning of this thread came about concerning VG's on the wing, but none on the
elevator. Perhaps the language or description of the reasoning for why one
should also put them on the elevator was inadequate.
The "tail stall" that did or did not occur during landing was not a problem in
any other configuration other than landings. Even when it did occur upon landing,
it was in no way any more than a Hmmm factor of about 1. It was just that
I like others before me had learned, that the wing still had lift, with VG's,
long after the tail had dropped to the ground. Since this was occurring at 2 feet
above the ground, it was not Scary! It certainly is not a design flaw. :-)
Merely that you now had a lot more usable lift than you had before the installation
of VG's, and you could even out the lift between the wing and the elevator
by adding some of the little thingys on the elevator.
There! I hope that clears things up a bit.
Larry
On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> -->
>
> Don't know about Kolbs (yet) but tail stall isn't that uncommon in
> other a/c. The early Cessna Cardinal required a stabilator redesign
> due to tail stall.
>
> If answers are desired about whether there's a tail stall problem with
> a particular plane, why not install an angle of attack meter? Doesn't
> have to be high dollar; just an indicator that has consistent, repeatable readings.
>
> The wing always stalls at the same angle of attack. If the plane
> stalls at some arbitrary angle indication ('x') on your AOA when the
> plane is lightly loaded, and it stalls at some lower angle (y?) on the
> same indicator when heavily loaded and/or at a more forward CG, then
> the tail has stalled instead of the wing. If the plane stalls at the
> same AOA indication but a higher airspeed, then it's the wing that's stalling.
>
> Charlie
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before
sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Sun and Fun 2017 |
Talked to Bryan Melborn yesterday. Kolb Company was set up and ready to go
in Lakeland. He has a spot reserved for me and Miss P'fer for the week.
Almost ready to go. Don't know why it takes so much stuff to survive a few
days at Sun and Fun, but it does. One doesn't have to train to be
miserable, so I take all the things I need to be comfortable. I tie down
the MKIII in the Kolb display area and put my tent up under the wing. It is
super convenient for me. Don't have to go anywhere and all my stuff I need
to live is right where I am located.
It is 415 sm from Gantt International Airport to Lakeland, about 5.0 hours
flight time. I make one fuel stop in Cross City, Florida. That gives me
enough gas to fly to Lakeland and return to Cross City to refuel on the way
home. They always have free hot dogs and usually cheaper av gas, so I get
lunch both ways.
Weather is a little iffy when I get down southeast of Tallahassee, Florida.
I'm mentally prepared to take my time, find a comfortable place to hang out
if I do encounter thunder storms. This is a fun flight, no hurry, and no
deadline to make. The air show at Lakeland tends to be aggravating at
times. It usually lasts from 1400 to 1700 hours. Can't land during that
time frame. Also, the field is Day VFR only which is good until 2011
eastern time today. I can take my time and enjoy my flight.
The NOTAM for Paradise City says Day VFR Only. I printed out a copy of the
data from the Naval Observatory to back me up if I come into Lakeland as
late as 2011 tonight. Also printed out a copy of the Paradise City NOTAM.
Usually I get, from the volunteers that run the airfield, no flying after
1900 hours. Got to have my ammo in case they decide to attack me, which
they do at times. ;-)
Time go.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
| From: | "phcpilot" <cowan.phc(at)gmail.com> |
We shouldn't get upset because some people like to use correct and accurate terminology
when talking about a phenomenon.
Charlie, I think your response is brilliant. For those of us who do want to use
the correct term to describe what is happening I applaud your insight
and I can help with that. I make (and sell) an inexpensive Angle of Attack indicator
that dozens of people love. After my last batch of probes and gauges ran
out I haven't pushed it but am redesigning the probe for it and can offer it
again. There is a link to it on my site ranss7.com New faces will have the needle
more or less horizontal with red at the top (high angle) and green at the
bottom.
And on the subject of VG s on stab, aren't they usually placed just ahead of the
hinge line where the air is going to break as it goes over the elevator not
up near the leading edge???
If answers are desired about whether there's a tail stall problem with a
particular plane, why not install an angle of attack meter? Doesn't have
to be high dollar; just an indicator that has consistent, repeatable
readings.
The wing always stalls at the same angle of attack. If the plane stalls
at some arbitrary angle indication ('x') on your AOA when the plane is
lightly loaded, and it stalls at some lower angle (y?) on the same
indicator when heavily loaded and/or at a more forward CG, then the tail
has stalled instead of the wing. If the plane stalls at the same AOA
indication but a higher airspeed, then it's the wing that's stalling.
Charlie[/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468032#468032
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/face_black_side_push_143.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
=8BI'm shocked!!! John H has put VGs on his airplane! I'm expecting s
ome
cataclysmic event to follow=8B!!!!
Years ago I witnessed and reported on the great VG fly off between John and
Richard Pike at a Kolb flyin. It should be in the archives so I won't go
back into the details here. But it was a tie.
I have some VGs on the sides of my fuselage at the wide point on my doors
and they do reduce the noise coming from the rear fuselage. I have plans to
someday put VGs on my wings and under my tail but it is a low priority. I
have a heavy engine and have put some major beef in the passenger
compartment including myself, I don't think anyone lapped but I can't say
that the old MKIIIC was ever less than capable of safely committing flight.
Also I saw the post about missing Buford, has something happened to him???
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
We shouldn't get upset because some people like to use correct and
accurate terminology when talking about a phenomenon.
And on the subject of VG s on stab, aren't they usually placed just
ahead of the hinge line where the air is going to break as it goes
over the elevator not up near the leading edge???
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suppose that I shouldn't feel a bit chapped, as I volunteered to
take the blame for the wandering of this thread.----This is the
original:
Larry Cottrell
Mar 31 (4 days ago)
to kolb-list
I have to admit that I am quite proud of you. Whether you believe it
or not, the ones on the elevator do help t keep the tail flying and
will also improve the landings. As I mentioned earlier, without them
the tail feathers stall before the wing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as the VG's are concerned they, to the best of my knowledge,
should be placed in front of the hinge line. Apparently they still do
quite well in other spots as well.
Inaccurately yours,
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
What some folks might think of as a "tail stall" may just be air separating from
the elevator itself. So the entire tail is not technically stalled, but if the
air separates from the bottom of the elevator you would very likely see a reduction
in control authority. So maybe "elevator stall" is the better way to
describe it.
The flat cross section tails (no airfoil) would likely be more prone to this, because
the airflow forward of the hinge line is not as smooth or organized as
it would be on a properly airfoiled tail. But as we know, tens of thousands of
Cubs, Taylorcrafts, Aeroncas, Porterfields, and Kolbs are flying safely without
an airfoiled tail. The "flat" tail is simply a compromise to make the airplanes
easier and/or less costly to build. On a 70-90 MPH airplane it is an easy
and worthwhile compromise to make.
As a non-Kolb point of reference, I have an old Cessna 172 (1956, first year).
Anyone with Cessna 172 time will verify that the airplanes are kind of nose-heavy
with the rear seats empty, and that you basically "run out of elevator" when
you are trying to do a minimum speed landing with one or two people in the
front seats. What happens is that you feel the yoke (stick) hit the control stop,
and you can't raise the nose any more, even though you can feel the airplane
was willing to slow down a little more.
But then I woke up one Christmas morning (in August), and in the middle of the
night Santa Claus had installed little plastic VG's on the bottom of my horizontal
stabilizer. As I was flying the aircraft directly to the Oklahoma City FAA
office to report Santa for breaking the rules, I noticed that I was able to
raise the nose of the Cessna just a little bit higher when I wanted to slow the
airplane down that last mile an hour on landing. I didn't have any numerical
way to measure it, but it was clear that there was a small improvement. By the
time I hit the control stop with the yoke all the way back, the nose was a tad
higher.
Another trick that works in the Cessna is adding a small touch of power at the
last 2 or 3 seconds of the flare. This puts a little more prop blast on the elevator
and allows you to raise the nose another degree or two higher before "tail
stall" / "elevator stall" / "no more control authority". I have not done this
on a Kolb, but perhaps some Kolb pilots have tried this. I'd be interested
to see if a little prop blast solves or delays the loss of elevator authority
at the flare.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Sun and Fun 2017 Canceled (for me) |
Hi Folks:
Got the airplane pushed out, topped off, and loaded. Come to find out my
Hawker Odyssey Battery I bought in 2006 or 2007 decided this morning it was
time to die. Started great last time I flew two days ago.
I have a new lithium battery jump start that I brought along today for its
first flight. Used it before we got off the ground. BTW, we didn't get off
the ground. Got it going, ran it 15 minutes while I finished loading. Shut
it down, got in and it failed to start. Called Bryan Melborn and canceled
out Lakeland this year. By the time I got a replacement it would have been
too late to fly today.
Thursday is doable, wind is out of the WNW, but there's lots of wind, plus
23 mph.
Looks like this will be the first S&F I have missed since my first in 1984.
Hopefully, there will be next year.
All the preparation didn't hurt a thing. I got the MKIII cleaned up, tuned
up, VG'd, and got me back into the swing of aviation again. I'll be ready
to fly West come next September.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
Bill
With the high thrust line in our Kolbs I don't think adding power while
flaring is going to help you raise the nose. The normal advice is to
approach with a bit of power then cut the power to assist with flare.
As a side note, years ago when I was sorting out my VW I had a reduction
drive failure when I was at about 1,000 AGL. My normal landing procedure is
approaching with just a bit of power with one notch of flaps cutting power
after I settle in. I practiced ahead of time landing with no power with no
flaps and found the landing just about the same as some power with one
notch. So using what I had practiced I used my flaps like a negative
throttle to get me where I wanted to land then raised the flaps for
landing. No big deal. The added bonus was that nice landing spot turned out
to be a bean field and with no flaps I was able to get the tail down in the
beans first. The beans grabbed the tail wires like a carrier arresting
cable and I landed with no damage what so ever.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Bill Berle
wrote:
>
> What some folks might think of as a "tail stall" may just be air
> separating from the elevator itself. So the entire tail is not technically
> stalled, but if the air separates from the bottom of the elevator you would
> very likely see a reduction in control authority. So maybe "elevator stall"
> is the better way to describe it.
>
> The flat cross section tails (no airfoil) would likely be more prone to
> this, because the airflow forward of the hinge line is not as smooth or
> organized as it would be on a properly airfoiled tail. But as we know, tens
> of thousands of Cubs, Taylorcrafts, Aeroncas, Porterfields, and Kolbs are
> flying safely without an airfoiled tail. The "flat" tail is simply a
> compromise to make the airplanes easier and/or less costly to build. On a
> 70-90 MPH airplane it is an easy and worthwhile compromise to make.
>
> As a non-Kolb point of reference, I have an old Cessna 172 (1956, first
> year). Anyone with Cessna 172 time will verify that the airplanes are kind
> of nose-heavy with the rear seats empty, and that you basically "run out of
> elevator" when you are trying to do a minimum speed landing with one or two
> people in the front seats. What happens is that you feel the yoke (stick)
> hit the control stop, and you can't raise the nose any more, even though
> you can feel the airplane was willing to slow down a little more.
>
> But then I woke up one Christmas morning (in August), and in the middle of
> the night Santa Claus had installed little plastic VG's on the bottom of my
> horizontal stabilizer. As I was flying the aircraft directly to the
> Oklahoma City FAA office to report Santa for breaking the rules, I noticed
> that I was able to raise the nose of the Cessna just a little bit higher
> when I wanted to slow the airplane down that last mile an hour on landing.
> I didn't have any numerical way to measure it, but it was clear that there
> was a small improvement. By the time I hit the control stop with the yoke
> all the way back, the nose was a tad higher.
>
> Another trick that works in the Cessna is adding a small touch of power at
> the last 2 or 3 seconds of the flare. This puts a little more prop blast on
> the elevator and allows you to raise the nose another degree or two higher
> before "tail stall" / "elevator stall" / "no more control authority". I
> have not done this on a Kolb, but perhaps some Kolb pilots have tried this.
> I'd be interested to see if a little prop blast solves or delays the loss
> of elevator authority at the flare.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
Rick N/Kolbers:
It'll be alright. Miracles happen every day. The cataclysmic event to
follow was my dead battery. Not much of an event, but enough to change
my plans.
Yes, Richard P and I had a little slow flight competition between our
two birds. His with VGs and mine naked as a J-
Bird. Rick thinks we tied. Richard claims radio problems. What's that
got to do with slow flight? I think I beat him. We'll have to do it
again now that I have VGs.
Buford has some medical problems. Don't know what, but it is enough to
keep him off the List. Yes, I miss ole Buford too.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack
=8BI'm shocked!!! John H has put VGs on his airplane! I'm
expecting some cataclysmic event to follow=8B!!!!
Years ago I witnessed and reported on the great VG fly off between John
and Richard Pike at a Kolb flyin. It should be in the archives so I
won't go back into the details here. But it was a tie.
I have some VGs on the sides of my fuselage at the wide point on my
doors and they do reduce the noise coming from the rear fuselage. I have
plans to someday put VGs on my wings and under my tail but it is a low
priority. I have a heavy engine and have put some major beef in the
passenger compartment including myself, I don't think anyone lapped but
I can't say that the old MKIIIC was ever less than capable of safely
committing flight.
Also I saw the post about missing Buford, has something happened to
him???
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
Running a 3800 to 4000 creates a sufficient wind flow over the tail to
restore authority. As an energy management tool it will give you longer
time to find the runway, but also uses more runway. If you have runway to
spare, no problem.. if you are trying to get into a 700 ft strip at 4000
msl. You don't need to be leaving any runway behind you.
Boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sun and Fun 2017 Canceled (for me) |
I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune John. I'm sure they'll miss ya. I remou
nted my little 377 today on my Firestar 1. It's been sealed away since 1990.
It'll be ready start next week?
George H.
Firestar MK1, FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
> On Apr 4, 2017, at 2:05 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Hi Folks:
>
> Got the airplane pushed out, topped off, and loaded. Come to find out my H
awker Odyssey Battery I bought in 2006 or 2007 decided this morning it was t
ime to die. Started great last time I flew two days ago.
>
> I have a new lithium battery jump start that I brought along today for its
first flight. Used it before we got off the ground. BTW, we didn't get of
f the ground. Got it going, ran it 15 minutes while I finished loading. Sh
ut it down, got in and it failed to start. Called Bryan Melborn and cancele
d out Lakeland this year. By the time I got a replacement it would have bee
n too late to fly today.
>
> Thursday is doable, wind is out of the WNW, but there's lots of wind, plus
23 mph.
>
> Looks like this will be the first S&F I have missed since my first in 1984
. Hopefully, there will be next year.
>
> All the preparation didn't hurt a thing. I got the MKIII cleaned up, tune
d up, VG'd, and got me back into the swing of aviation again. I'll be ready
to fly West come next September.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Thomson <mojaveclimber(at)gmail.com> |
I agree with John, carry a bit more speed on final and a bit more forward
pressure on the stick, keep the tail flying longer. I'm confident you will
experience better landings.
Jim
On Apr 3, 2017 9:17 AM, "John Hauck" wrote:
> Add a little airspeed when flying healthy passengers.
>
>
> Last thing I would do is add weight to my airplane to counteract
> ineffective tail. However, I have added plenty of weight to Miss P'fer for
> many other reasons. ;-)
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *B Young
> *Sent:* Monday, April 03, 2017 11:02 AM
> *To:* Kolb List
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: : VG's: VG's
>
>
> To all, I guess the tail stall may be my ball of wax, let me make one
> more stab at it.....
>
> I have described what I have experienced as tail stall. With some
> information received off list, I will make another option available.
>
> When flying with a passenger, I could only generate enough down force to
> slow my mkiii to 15 to 20 MPH above the speed the wing stalls. I've called
> this tail stall. I guess to be able to defiantly call it tail stall I
> should tuft the bottom of the elevators. Then there would be no
> question.
>
> The alternative possibly could be that the horizontal stabilizer and the
> elevators may not be stalling, but it may be that the control surfaces
> may be too small to provide the down force necessary.
>
> Up untill the time I installed vgs I would have said that either
> explanation was plausible. As soon as i installed the vgs on the
> underside of the horizontal stabilizer,,, I instantly had enough down force
> to hold the plane in a level attitude until the wing stalls. That would
> indicate to me that the control surfaces were large enough. The vgs have
> kept the air attached so that the elevators can work to their potential.
> Had the vgs made no difference, I would have decided that the control
> surfaces were too small.
>
> I spent some time at the computer and re did my w&b. Cg limits per the
> plan are 25 to 35 percent of wing cord. When experiencing insufficient
> down force, my cg calculated to 26.66. within the limits.
>
> My conclusion is that you eliminate tail stall, there are 3 ways that I
> have come up with,,, (maybe 4) 1. Install larger horizontals and
> elevators. 2. Install vgs. 3. Limit your passenger's weight. 4.
> Add more physical weight to the tail.(thus applying more down force by
> gravity in lieu of aero dynamics)
>
> I understand that men are deep thinkers, and maybe I have over thought
> this. Larry stop laughing!
>
> Boyd
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
Clip"""And on the subject of VG s on stab, aren't they usually placed just
ahead of the
hinge line where the air is going to break as it goes over the elevator not
up near the leading edge???"""end clip
...............
The instructions from John Gilpen say to install the vgs at 4 inches
forward of the elevator hinge. If I had more vg sticky pads, I may have
re tested by removed the vgs, and reinstalling them further forward. Then
either move them back to the 4 inch location or leave them in the forward
position depending on results.
My thinking of why to put them further forward was a combination of a
couple ideas. 1. In a further forward position, there would be more
'time / distance' for the vortex to develop. 2. Similar concept but a
different way to look at it. On the wing we know that the vgs maintain
better aileron control. The aileron is 3 1/2 feet back from the vgs. The
question in my mind, if the vortexes are adding benefit 3 1/2 plus feet
back, why limit it to 4 inches.
There is a good chance someone has tested in this manner and that is why 4
inches is the recommendation. If any of you know, please pass on the
information.
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Del Vinal <mercecedes116(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | tail stall and vg's |
Hi all, I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now likes
the vg things. I use homemade ones.
In an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John Dresseldoff
reported on his work with vg's and a 150 Cessna. He modified the wing tips,
the control surfaces, etc and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range.
He had hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting article. And no
one cared.
In the poh of a 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full
flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club had found,
after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail with disturbed air and
caused the plane to become uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My
1948 straight wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps.
Loved to slip it did..
I'll see if I can find that Experimenter . Good luck all.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | tail stall and vg's |
The 170 club had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the
tail with disturbed air and caused the plane to become uncontrollable
near the ground.
Thanks for that info, Del V.
After Boyd Young's post about horizontal stab placement of VGs, I did a
Google search. Discovered the reason most military transport aircraft
have high tails is to keep them in clean air when flaps are deployed.
Makes sense to me. The other reason, that was not mentioned in my
search, was loading and off loading through a tail gate.
The large flaps on the MKIII are in line with the tail section. Not
hard, for me, to believe they'll divert the air off the tail, full
flaps, engine at idle power. When it happened to me, at 85 mph, there
was no resistance, no feel in the elevators. A discomforting feeling
when diving straight down with a fat passenger. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
John Hauck wrote:
> Rick N/Kolbers:
>
> It'll be alright. Miracles happen every day. The cataclysmic event to follow
was my dead battery. Not much of an event, but enough to change my plans.
>
> Yes, Richard P and I had a little slow flight competition between our two birds.
His with VGs and mine naked as a J-
> Bird. Rick thinks we tied. Richard claims radio problems. What's that got to
do with slow flight? I think I beat him. We'll have to do it again now that I
have VGs.
>
> Buford has some medical problems. Don't know what, but it is enough to keep him
off the List. Yes, I miss ole Buford too.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
Yes, it was pretty much a tie. When the radio quit (I had knocked one of the plugs
loose from the comm box behind the seat where it was plugged in) there was
no way for us to coordinate how we were going to do things.
I was uncomfortable with getting side by side with even a highly skilled pilot
like yourself when we are having a slow fly competition where we are flying side
by side as slow as possible, and by definition on the edge of a stall, and
not being able to communicate or coordinate with each other. At times I was lower
than you and could not see you, and flying next to somebody I can't see or
talk to had me thinking "This is insane." Maybe you could see me, and were watching
me close, but how could I know that? If I could have known that you were
going to stay in a position to watch me and be responsible for any eventuality,
that would have sufficed, & I could have focused on flying, but nothing had
been arranged. So I was really distracted, & IMO it had a lot to do with everything.
It would be fun to do it again, but I suspect that next time you would win hands
down. I think the reason for the tie last time is that both of us were using
a lot of power and a 100hp MKIII w/o vg's ought to hang on the prop to the point
that it can fly just as slow as a lighter 65hp MKIII with vg's.
A better test would be two MKIII's of equal engine and prop, one with VG's, one
w/o.
Hate that you missed S & F, you have always been a fixture at the Kolb tent.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468067#468067
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack |
Nope. 100 hp had nothing to do with the competition except increase the
weight of my already fat MKIII, which still had half my gear on board.
Wonder how much heavier it was than yours. I was probably turning 3000,
nibbling on the stall. As an added note: My 912ULS only produces 95 hp on
my airplane because it is propped for 5500 WOT straight and level. To get
100 hp I'd have to prop for 5800 WOT straight and level flight.
I can assure you I had you in sight constantly. A little something I
learned about flying formation in helicopters many years ago.
Besides, I made it clear on the ground I would fly the right side, south, of
the airstrip and you would fly the north side. I believe you also suggested
this slow flight competition to prove you could whip my ass with your VGs.
;-)
There is no better test than the test between me and you, my airplane and
your airplane, to see which one could fly the slowest. I beat. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Fly like a butter fly, float like a feather. ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 11:09 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack
-->
John Hauck wrote:
> Rick N/Kolbers:
>
> It'll be alright. Miracles happen every day. The cataclysmic event to
follow was my dead battery. Not much of an event, but enough to change my
plans.
>
> Yes, Richard P and I had a little slow flight competition between our
> two birds. His with VGs and mine naked as a J- Bird. Rick thinks we
tied. Richard claims radio problems. What's that got to do with slow
flight? I think I beat him. We'll have to do it again now that I have
VGs.
>
> Buford has some medical problems. Don't know what, but it is enough to
keep him off the List. Yes, I miss ole Buford too.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
Yes, it was pretty much a tie. When the radio quit (I had knocked one of the
plugs loose from the comm box behind the seat where it was plugged in) there
was no way for us to coordinate how we were going to do things.
I was uncomfortable with getting side by side with even a highly skilled
pilot like yourself when we are having a slow fly competition where we are
flying side by side as slow as possible, and by definition on the edge of a
stall, and not being able to communicate or coordinate with each other. At
times I was lower than you and could not see you, and flying next to
somebody I can't see or talk to had me thinking "This is insane." Maybe you
could see me, and were watching me close, but how could I know that? If I
could have known that you were going to stay in a position to watch me and
be responsible for any eventuality, that would have sufficed, & I could have
focused on flying, but nothing had been arranged. So I was really
distracted, & IMO it had a lot to do with everything.
It would be fun to do it again, but I suspect that next time you would win
hands down. I think the reason for the tie last time is that both of us were
using a lot of power and a 100hp MKIII w/o vg's ought to hang on the prop to
the point that it can fly just as slow as a lighter 65hp MKIII with vg's.
A better test would be two MKIII's of equal engine and prop, one with VG's,
one w/o.
Hate that you missed S & F, you have always been a fixture at the Kolb tent.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468067#468067
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tail stall and vg's |
I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind
the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff.
The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had.
Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would
provide a cambered surface.
The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined"
than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something
that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made very
significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course.
But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled
out all the stops and went for broke.
I would love to see that article again if you can find it.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM
Hi all,
I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now
likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In
an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John
Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150
Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had
hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting
article. And no one cared. In the poh of a
1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full
flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club
had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail
with disturbed air and caused the plane to become
uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps.
Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I
can find that Experimenter . Good luck all.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: tail stall and vg's |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Yep...Bill
No wild geese no gosling's!!
Guys like Homer and Dennis and Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing
our field of flying,..,. I tell the GA buddies who like to rib
me...."just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from
flying one yourselves!" Herb
On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind
the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff.
>
> The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland
had. Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would
provide a cambered surface.
>
> The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined"
than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something
that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made
very significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course.
But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled
out all the stops and went for broke.
>
> I would love to see that article again if you can find it.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM
>
> Hi all,
> I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now
> likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In
> an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John
> Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150
> Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
> and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had
> hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting
> article. And no one cared. In the poh of a
> 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full
> flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club
> had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail
> with disturbed air and caused the plane to become
> uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
> wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps.
> Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I
> can find that Experimenter . Good luck all.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tail stall and vg's |
Herb wrote: "just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying
one yourselves!"
Well I have a confession to make, and everyone here can give me a great big ration
of s*** for it with my blessing.
Once upon a time I was one of those guys that looked down their noses at "other"
kinds of airplanes. I was lucky enough to be a sailplane racer in the 1980's,
flying those beautiful gleaming white hand built German gliders with 50 foot
wingspans. When I saw "lawn chair" ultralights with their loud 2 stroke engines,
or powered parachutes, or even the Cessna 150's that I had learned how to
fly in... I thought all that was just so low class.
Thankfully, a combination of age, wisdom, education, seeing things from different
perspectives... and having life punch me in the face a few times... changed
all that. I can't afford one aileron for a racing sailplane these days. As I
had posted some months ago, when I first saw a Kolb I thought it was comical looking,
and why would anyone design something that looked like that. Years later
when I learned more about airplanes and what makes them fly one way or another,
I eventually understood what Homer Kolb was trying to accomplish. And eventually
I went looking for a Kolb because of the unique combination of features
and capabilities it has.
So now I'm the guy at the airport who just as soon defends light and ultralight
aircraft when my Cessna driver friends rib me about it. I love my old 172, and
I would give anything to be back in the cockpit of a racing sailplane, but I
try to appreciate every other type of aircraft just as much.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/5/17, Hoppy wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 11:27 AM
Yep...Bill
No wild geese no gosling's!!
Guys like Homer and Dennis and
Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing
our field of flying,..,. I tell
the GA buddies who like to rib
me...."just a weed eater that flies!!
and you are just a medical from
flying one yourselves!" Herb
On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle
wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle
>
> I remember that article !!! He had
some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and
a bunch of other wild stuff.
>
> The tubes served as a poor boy
double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being
round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was,
they would provide a cambered surface.
>
> The article went on to say he was
a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your
average airplane modifier or something. It looked like
something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that
the article said he made very significant reductions in
minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I
remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because
he pulled out all the stops and went for broke.
>
> I would love to see that article
again if you can find it.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal
wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: tail
stall and vg's
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 5,
2017, 8:22 AM
>
> Hi all,
> I've been watching the
thread and am glad Big John now
> likes the vg things. I use
homemade ones. In
> an Experimenter EAA mag
from the early nineties John
> Dresseldoff reported on his
work with vg's and a 150
> Cessna. He modified the
wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
> and had slow flight down in
the mid 20mph range. He had
> hundreds of vg's on the
wing alone.Very interesting
> article. And no one
cared. In the poh of a
> 1952 170B Cessna I had it
was stated no slips with full
> flaps. Hand written in, so
I went looking why. The 170 club
> had found, after a fatal,
that the flaps blanketed the tail
> with disturbed air and
caused the plane to become
> uncontrollable near the
ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
> wing 170 did not have this
issue as it had very small flaps.
> Loved to slip it
did.. I'll see if I
> can find that Experimenter
. Good luck all.
>
>
>
>
>
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help 503 side mount exhaust Muffler Mounting |
| From: | "KJ4CTZ" <Kj4ctz(at)gmail.com> |
Hey, thanks a lot guys. These photos help. I do not have a photo of how my current
exhaust (muffler) was mounted when I bought this plane and it is all apart
right now.
They way it was mounted was with two isolation mounts (male thread on each side
of a rubber block 3/4" in diameter) screwed into two of the head bolt stand-off
nuts and the other end attached to a dual band muffler clamp. This setup was
very weak and rested against the shroud of the engine. Put bluntly, it was ugly,
weak and concerned me thinking it was going to break off and go through the
fan.
Actually, I scraped a couple photos off a video I made of the walk-around of my
Kolb Firestar 1
Video of walk-around here: https://youtu.be/j1gRQWckwdI?list=PL0k9OzgGAsmt12QQbYGeHYg7-pd7ifSMZ
See the below 2 attachments
Is there some place where I could purchase the aluminum angle pre-drilled for a
503?
I will be at Sun-N-Fun this Saturday so I will look around there.
Again, thanks for the help guys,
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468081#468081
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mufflermount_2_117.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mufflermount_1_207.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: tail stall and vg's |
| From: | Russ Kinne <russk50(at)gmail.com> |
BILL, MY CONGRATS TO YOU FOR BEING SO HONEST! - and confessing prior faults
Fair winds,
Russ
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 3:14 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
>
> Herb wrote: "just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from
flying one yourselves!"
>
> Well I have a confession to make, and everyone here can give me a great big ration
of s*** for it with my blessing.
>
> Once upon a time I was one of those guys that looked down their noses at "other"
kinds of airplanes. I was lucky enough to be a sailplane racer in the 1980's,
flying those beautiful gleaming white hand built German gliders with 50 foot
wingspans. When I saw "lawn chair" ultralights with their loud 2 stroke engines,
or powered parachutes, or even the Cessna 150's that I had learned how to
fly in... I thought all that was just so low class.
>
> Thankfully, a combination of age, wisdom, education, seeing things from different
perspectives... and having life punch me in the face a few times... changed
all that. I can't afford one aileron for a racing sailplane these days. As
I had posted some months ago, when I first saw a Kolb I thought it was comical
looking, and why would anyone design something that looked like that. Years later
when I learned more about airplanes and what makes them fly one way or another,
I eventually understood what Homer Kolb was trying to accomplish. And eventually
I went looking for a Kolb because of the unique combination of features
and capabilities it has.
>
> So now I'm the guy at the airport who just as soon defends light and ultralight
aircraft when my Cessna driver friends rib me about it. I love my old 172,
and I would give anything to be back in the cockpit of a racing sailplane, but
I try to appreciate every other type of aircraft just as much.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/5/17, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 11:27 AM
>
>
>
> Yep...Bill
>
> No wild geese no gosling's!!
>
> Guys like Homer and Dennis and
> Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing
> our field of flying,..,. I tell
> the GA buddies who like to rib
> me...."just a weed eater that flies!!
> and you are just a medical from
> flying one yourselves!" Herb
>
>
> On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle
> wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: Bill Berle
>>
>> I remember that article !!! He had
> some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and
> a bunch of other wild stuff.
>>
>> The tubes served as a poor boy
> double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being
> round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was,
> they would provide a cambered surface.
>>
>> The article went on to say he was
> a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your
> average airplane modifier or something. It looked like
> something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that
> the article said he made very significant reductions in
> minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I
> remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because
> he pulled out all the stops and went for broke.
>>
>> I would love to see that article
> again if you can find it.
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com -
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>>
>>
> --------------------------------------------
>> On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal
> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Kolb-List: tail
> stall and vg's
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Wednesday, April 5,
> 2017, 8:22 AM
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I've been watching the
> thread and am glad Big John now
>> likes the vg things. I use
> homemade ones. In
>> an Experimenter EAA mag
> from the early nineties John
>> Dresseldoff reported on his
> work with vg's and a 150
>> Cessna. He modified the
> wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
>> and had slow flight down in
> the mid 20mph range. He had
>> hundreds of vg's on the
> wing alone.Very interesting
>> article. And no one
> cared. In the poh of a
>> 1952 170B Cessna I had it
> was stated no slips with full
>> flaps. Hand written in, so
> I went looking why. The 170 club
>> had found, after a fatal,
> that the flaps blanketed the tail
>> with disturbed air and
> caused the plane to become
>> uncontrollable near the
> ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
>> wing 170 did not have this
> issue as it had very small flaps.
>> Loved to slip it
> did.. I'll see if I
>> can find that Experimenter
> . Good luck all.
>>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
I don't have any knowledge of his breathing status / health or lack
thereof. The vgs on the helmet and bottom of the wing was 100 % for
laughs and to lighten up the mood on the list.
Boyd Young
>clip
> Boyd - has Beauford died? I dint hear about it.
> If so, why=99d he do that??
End vlip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russk50(at)gmail.com> |
I realize that; thought it was mildly hilarious!
> On Apr 6, 2017, at 9:41 PM, B Young wrote:
>
> I don't have any knowledge of his breathing status / health or lack
thereof. The vgs on the helmet and bottom of the wing was 100 % for
laughs and to lighten up the mood on the list.
>
> Boyd Young
>
> >clip
> > Boyd - has Beauford died? I dint hear about it.
> > If so, why=99d he do that??
> End vlip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
I am pretty sure that Beauford had a very serious stroke. He was a huge asset to
this group.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468111#468111
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/beauford_2_1_500.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/beauford_2_137.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net> |
Kolbers,
I am wondering if anyone has installed an ADS-B Out, or In and Out, in there Kolb
yet? Open Flight Solutions is the most affordable system I have heard of so
far.
I would appreciate your input. Hopefully John will check it out for us at Fun in
the Sun.
Thanks,
Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska
607AK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
I figure there are guys on the list who are way ahead of me on this
application...?
I have likely said this before but I am playing with adsb...receive only
on a Nexus 7 with a NooElec nesdr t2. I have never taken it outdoors
to get signals but seems to work software wise.. I use Avare navigation
which is free along with Avare adsb app, also free.
Nexus runs android software ...The nexus was 50 bucks at a pawn
shop..The dongle (noo elec software defined radio) was 19 bucks.. I
think they are available for less..? I find Amazon to be the priciest
..so I usually buy from Ebay...specify free shipping and US location..
Should receive adsb and weather... One possible problem is the drain
on the tablet battery...I bought an usb , self powered, extender at an
Amazon outlet for 5 bucks...flying, it will require conversion from 12
to 5 volts.. A three terminal regulator and a couple of capacitors
work...but likely those devices are available from "big Red" for a few
bucks..
Naturally this sort of device and its multiple usages are all over
youtube. Some fellows are repackaging the whole kit and caboodle and
asking big bucks for them... Hardware is cheap so it is all in the
software... Glass cockpits use the same or similar hardware. But want
10k or better for their brew.. and they use much the same hardware...
By now there should be total engine management as well as flight
instrument replacement software and hardware for a Tablet ...The
interface to egt,cht,oil pressure,etc can be made with a 7 dollar micro
computer..called the Arduino...for it and the Raspberry Pi (35 bucks)
have multiple analog inputs for sensors . The flight instruments (less
airspeed) can be accomplished with a device the size of a postage stamp
called a 9dof(degrees of freedom) 10 bucks.. it has an altimeter
chip,magnetometer,gyro...The Arduino is the size of a credit card.. 7
bucks... Both computers have a serial port that interfaces to the 9DOF.
Should be fairly easy to tie the computer to aileron, and elevator trim
for some sort of wing leveling to relax the work load on cross
countries.. A large three wire , model airplane, servo would work..
Still looking for a Firefly or Firestar re builder... Herb
On 04/07/2017 02:03 AM, Nick Cassara wrote:
>
> Kolbers,
>
> I am wondering if anyone has installed an ADS-B Out, or In and Out, in there
Kolb yet? Open Flight Solutions is the most affordable system I have heard of
so far.
> I would appreciate your input. Hopefully John will check it out for us at Fun
in the Sun.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Nick Cassara
>
> Palmer, Alaska
>
> 607AK
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Nick C/Kolbers:
Two problems with your request below.
-I didn't make it to S&F.
-At Gantt International Airport there is no ADSB requirement. Therefore I have
not paid much attention to it. Have no idea what the equipment looks like or
what the requirements are for installing and use.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nick Cassara
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 2:03 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: ADS-B Out
Kolbers,
I am wondering if anyone has installed an ADS-B Out, or In and Out, in there Kolb
yet? Open Flight Solutions is the most affordable system I have heard of so
far.
I would appreciate your input. Hopefully John will check it out for us at Fun in
the Sun.
Thanks,
Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska
607AK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Info. On MZ201/M202 |
I just thought that I'd start a thread concerning the MZ201 and MZ202 engines.
If someone on the Kolb-list might have some experience with these engines mounted
and flown on Kolbs. I'm considering an MZ201 for my Firestar MK1.
George H.
Firestar, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Info. On MZ201/M202 |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Where is Jack Hart when we need him.. ??
http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html
Herb
On 04/07/2017 08:39 AM, George Helton wrote:
>
> I just thought that I'd start a thread concerning the MZ201 and MZ202 engines.
If someone on the Kolb-list might have some experience with these engines mounted
and flown on Kolbs. I'm considering an MZ201 for my Firestar MK1.
> George H.
> Firestar, #FS100
> 14GDH
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
> Mesick, Michigan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
With the powered usb hub...should not be a large problem...Herb
On 04/07/2017 09:11 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> Nexus 7 won't allow you to charge it and see the dongle at the same
> time, unless you 'root' it.
>
> Lots of info out there; I'll try to send some links when I get home.
>
> Charlie
> (Loading a Twinstar project on the trailer today! )
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Hoppy
> Date:04/07/2017 8:58 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ADS-B Out
>
>
> I figure there are guys on the list who are way ahead of me on this
> application...?
>
> I have likely said this before but I am playing with adsb...receive only
> on a Nexus 7 with a NooElec nesdr t2. I have never taken it outdoors
> to get signals but seems to work software wise.. I use Avare navigation
> which is free along with Avare adsb app, also free.
>
> Nexus runs android software ...The nexus was 50 bucks at a pawn
> shop..The dongle (noo elec software defined radio) was 19 bucks.. I
> think they are available for less..? I find Amazon to be the priciest
> ..so I usually buy from Ebay...specify free shipping and US location..
>
> Should receive adsb and weather... One possible problem is the drain
> on the tablet battery...I bought an usb , self powered, extender at an
> Amazon outlet for 5 bucks...flying, it will require conversion from 12
> to 5 volts.. A three terminal regulator and a couple of capacitors
> work...but likely those devices are available from "big Red" for a few
> bucks..
>
> Naturally this sort of device and its multiple usages are all over
> youtube. Some fellows are repackaging the whole kit and caboodle and
> asking big bucks for them... Hardware is cheap so it is all in the
> software... Glass cockpits use the same or similar hardware. But want
> 10k or better for their brew.. and they use much the same hardware...
>
> By now there should be total engine management as well as flight
> instrument replacement software and hardware for a Tablet ...The
> interface to egt,cht,oil pressure,etc can be made with a 7 dollar micro
> computer..called the Arduino...for it and the Raspberry Pi (35 bucks)
> have multiple analog inputs for sensors . The flight instruments (less
> airspeed) can be accomplished with a device the size of a postage stamp
> called a 9dof(degrees of freedom) 10 bucks.. it has an altimeter
> chip,magnetometer,gyro...The Arduino is the size of a credit card.. 7
> bucks... Both computers have a serial port that interfaces to the 9DOF.
> Should be fairly easy to tie the computer to aileron, and elevator trim
> for some sort of wing leveling to relax the work load on cross
> countries.. A large three wire , model airplane, servo would work..
>
> Still looking for a Firefly or Firestar re builder... Herb
>
>
> On 04/07/2017 02:03 AM, Nick Cassara wrote:
> >
> > Kolbers,
> >
> > I am wondering if anyone has installed an ADS-B Out, or In and Out,
> in there Kolb yet? Open Flight Solutions is the most affordable system
> I have heard of so far.
> > I would appreciate your input. Hopefully John will check it out for
> us at Fun in the Sun.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Nick Cassara
> >
> > Palmer, Alaska
> >
> > 607AK
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
If the Nexus is fully charged...it would be important to use a powered
hub ...The discharge on the Nexus would be fairly normal then... Herb
On 04/07/2017 11:43 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> You can power the radio with it, but the 7 won't charge while in usb
> otg mode.
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Hoppy
> Date:04/07/2017 10:52 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ADS-B Out
>
> With the powered usb hub...should not be a large problem...Herb
>
>
> On 04/07/2017 09:11 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Nexus 7 won't allow you to charge it and see the dongle at the same
>> time, unless you 'root' it.
>>
>> Lots of info out there; I'll try to send some links when I get home.
>>
>> Charlie
>> (Loading a Twinstar project on the trailer today! )
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Hoppy
>> Date:04/07/2017 8:58 AM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ADS-B Out
>>
>>
>> I figure there are guys on the list who are way ahead of me on this
>> application...?
>>
>> I have likely said this before but I am playing with adsb...receive only
>> on a Nexus 7 with a NooElec nesdr t2. I have never taken it outdoors
>> to get signals but seems to work software wise.. I use Avare navigation
>> which is free along with Avare adsb app, also free.
>>
>> Nexus runs android software ...The nexus was 50 bucks at a pawn
>> shop..The dongle (noo elec software defined radio) was 19 bucks.. I
>> think they are available for less..? I find Amazon to be the priciest
>> ..so I usually buy from Ebay...specify free shipping and US location..
>>
>> Should receive adsb and weather... One possible problem is the drain
>> on the tablet battery...I bought an usb , self powered, extender at an
>> Amazon outlet for 5 bucks...flying, it will require conversion from 12
>> to 5 volts.. A three terminal regulator and a couple of capacitors
>> work...but likely those devices are available from "big Red" for a few
>> bucks..
>>
>> Naturally this sort of device and its multiple usages are all over
>> youtube. Some fellows are repackaging the whole kit and caboodle and
>> asking big bucks for them... Hardware is cheap so it is all in the
>> software... Glass cockpits use the same or similar hardware. But want
>> 10k or better for their brew.. and they use much the same hardware...
>>
>> By now there should be total engine management as well as flight
>> instrument replacement software and hardware for a Tablet ...The
>> interface to egt,cht,oil pressure,etc can be made with a 7 dollar micro
>> computer..called the Arduino...for it and the Raspberry Pi (35 bucks)
>> have multiple analog inputs for sensors . The flight instruments (less
>> airspeed) can be accomplished with a device the size of a postage stamp
>> called a 9dof(degrees of freedom) 10 bucks.. it has an altimeter
>> chip,magnetometer,gyro...The Arduino is the size of a credit card.. 7
>> bucks... Both computers have a serial port that interfaces to the 9DOF.
>> Should be fairly easy to tie the computer to aileron, and elevator trim
>> for some sort of wing leveling to relax the work load on cross
>> countries.. A large three wire , model airplane, servo would work..
>>
>> Still looking for a Firefly or Firestar re builder... Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/07/2017 02:03 AM, Nick Cassara wrote:
>> >
>> > Kolbers,
>> >
>> > I am wondering if anyone has installed an ADS-B Out, or In and Out,
>> in there Kolb yet? Open Flight Solutions is the most affordable
>> system I have heard of so far.
>> > I would appreciate your input. Hopefully John will check it out for
>> us at Fun in the Sun.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> >
>> > Nick Cassara
>> >
>> > Palmer, Alaska
>> >
>> > 607AK
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
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IDYwN0FLCj4KPgo+Cj4KCgoKCgoK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
Just got back from a day and a half at Sun-N-Fun. The weather was super,
very unlike Florida for this time of the year. Highs in the mid 70s Friday
and today. Last night froze my a.... off.
Brian and Helen had to leave for home a few days ago so it was a one man
show at the kolb trailer.
I looked at the new break away tail wheel and I don't really understand how
it works. It looks to me like you have to give it opposite lock to get it
to release. In other words if you want it to go full swivel to the left you
would apply the left brake and push on the right rudder to the stop. The
design is simple and should be reliable just not sure how it works in
practice. Please let us know how it really works. Has me scratching my head.
There is a beautiful customer Kolbra for sale in front of the Kolb trailer
and sounds like they sold a completed Fire Star. Lots of activity. Not the
same without John H there.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
Rick N/Kolbers:
I miss being there. S&F has always been a special week for me. Met a
lot of folks down there that I only get to see during the air show.
First one I have missed since 1984.
Oh well, Miss P'fer is ready for the flight to the Rock House in Sep,
VGs, brand new Odyssey PC-545, and all. The Odyssey battery that
failed, was installed April 2007. I believe I got my money's worth, but
I wish it had failed a few weeks earlier or a few weeks later.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 2:47 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Sun-N-Fun 2017
Just got back from a day and a half at Sun-N-Fun. The weather was super,
very unlike Florida for this time of the year. Highs in the mid 70s
Friday and today. Last night froze my a.... off.
Brian and Helen had to leave for home a few days ago so it was a one man
show at the kolb trailer.
I looked at the new break away tail wheel and I don't really understand
how it works. It looks to me like you have to give it opposite lock to
get it to release. In other words if you want it to go full swivel to
the left you would apply the left brake and push on the right rudder to
the stop. The design is simple and should be reliable just not sure how
it works in practice. Please let us know how it really works. Has me
scratching my head.
There is a beautiful customer Kolbra for sale in front of the Kolb
trailer and sounds like they sold a completed Fire Star. Lots of
activity. Not the same without John H there.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russk50(at)gmail.com> |
Tried to email ole Beauford and it bounced. Can someone
pls send me his current email address?
Greatly appreciated!
Russ K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Craddock <craddojc(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Info. On MZ201/M202 |
George,
This is a great question. =C2-I have an MZ201 (an unusual dual-carb versi
on), and was going to use on a scratchbuilt plane, but I became enamored wi
th the Kolbs and bought an Ultrastar a couple months ago. =C2-For me, the
attraction of the MZ201 was its very light weight. =C2-With redrive, the
MZ201 weighs 68 lbs. The MZ201 weight includes the exhaust, carb, redrive,
and hand start. The distributor has a neat picture of the 277 and MZ201 on
a balance beam, with the 277 clearly heavier than the MZ201. =C2-That sa
id, the MZ201 lacks fan cooling and its free air configuration seems unsuit
ed for a pusher layout. My Ultrastar has a Cuyuna ULII-02 and with its exha
ust, reduction drive, pull start,carb, air cleaner, ignition parts and prop
attach flgs, weighs 82 lbs (actual - measured in my garage). =C2-I would
love to replace it with the MZ201 but cooling has been a stumbling block..
. =C2-Any ideas you might have for using in in a pusher would be apprecia
ted.
The MZ202 has fan cooling but the fan cooling system replaces the pull star
ter, which necessitates an heavy elec starter. =C2-That, and the gear red
rive, raise weight considerably - its more like an 84 lb all up weight.
Jeff in Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Colin Hudson <colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Guys, I just listed my Mark3 X-tra on Barnstormers if you know someone who
is looking for a nice one.
Colin Hudson
N424AL
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Blue Bird Flight |
Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job
loaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get me
halfway to Lakeland.
The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
35-36 mph clean.
32 mph 20 deg flaps.
30 mph 40 deg flaps.
Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them. I
can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very
close, if at all.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blue Bird Flight |
John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the new b
reakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather up here i
n northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on the old Firest
ar MK1, so I can try it out.
George H.
Firestar MK1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job l
oaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get me h
alfway to Lakeland.
>
> The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
>
> I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
>
> 35-36 mph clean.
>
> 32 mph 20 deg flaps.
>
> 30 mph 40 deg flaps.
>
> Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them. I
can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
>
> Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very cl
ose, if at all.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blue Bird Flight |
Glad that you could get out John. It was a good reward for you, if you
know what I mean.
I have always found the idea that having the "little bitty thingy ma
bobs" on your wing that are designed to reattach the air flow to said
wing, being maligned because "they might" slow your plane down a bit,
to be a bit of a head scratcher. ( I might still be suffering from
inaccurate writing here.) I had always thought that air swirling from
being unattached was the culprit, not the solution. Heck, you could be
going faster.
Just look at it this way. What is the first thing you do when you get
in rough weather? You slow down! It could be an improvement built in.
Still a bit cranky,
Larry
On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 8:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job
> loaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas.
> Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very
> close, if at all.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Blue Bird Flight |
I think George H has invented a new model Firestar, the MKI.
If memory serves me correctly these are the Firestar models. Ya'll correct
me if I am wrong.
-Firestar
-Firestar KXP
-Firestar II
Don't think there was a MKI, but I know what you are getting at. Folks, not
Homer Kolb, decided to call the first FS model the "original" FS, and the
"original" MKIII.
BTW: You could cut that tail wheel strut in half and still have more strut
than you will ever need. Shortening the strut reduces torsional twist,
bouncing, bending, and wiggling. Makes tail wheel steering a little
tighter. I use a 6" (exposed length) .120" wall heat treated 4130 strut.
Works good on Miss P'fer.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the new
breakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather up here
in northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on the old
Firestar MK1, so I can try it out.
image1.JPG
George H.
Firestar MK1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job
loaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get me
halfway to Lakeland.
The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
35-36 mph clean.
32 mph 20 deg flaps.
30 mph 40 deg flaps.
Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them. I
can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very
close, if at all.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blue Bird Flight |
You're right, John. Original is just to much typing every time. I'll just us
e Firestar 1 in the future. I did build a Twinstar Mk II which was the secon
d variant of original Twinstar. (open to enclosed cockpit)Which lead to the o
riginal MkIII.
George H.
Firestar 1,(original) #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
> On Apr 9, 2017, at 12:08 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> I think George H has invented a new model Firestar, the MKI.
>
> If memory serves me correctly these are the Firestar models. Ya'll correc
t me if I am wrong.
>
> -Firestar
> -Firestar KXP
> -Firestar II
>
> Don't think there was a MKI, but I know what you are getting at. Folks, n
ot Homer Kolb, decided to call the first FS model the "original" FS, and the
"original" MKIII.
>
> BTW: You could cut that tail wheel strut in half and still have more stru
t than you will ever need. Shortening the strut reduces torsional twist, bo
uncing, bending, and wiggling. Makes tail wheel steering a little tighter.
I use a 6" (exposed length) .120" wall heat treated 4130 strut. Works good
on Miss P'fer.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:19 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
>
> John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the ne
w breakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather up he
re in northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on the old Fi
restar MK1, so I can try it out.
>
>
> George H.
> Firestar MK1, #FS100
> 14GDH
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
> Mesick, Michigan
>
>
> Have a great day!
>
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job l
oaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get me h
alfway to Lakeland.
>
> The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
>
> I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
>
> 35-36 mph clean.
>
> 32 mph 20 deg flaps.
>
> 30 mph 40 deg flaps.
>
> Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them. I
can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
>
> Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very cl
ose, if at all.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norman <norm2mac(at)gmail.com> |
Hi All,
I've just bought myself a 582 blue top Kolb Mk.3 (not the xtra) as
I've always fancied one, but here in the U.K. they're like hen's
teeth, or very expensive.
I'd like some info as I don't have any basic info on the aircraft,
just the builders manual, no plans etc, I even don't know if there's a
pilots manual.
On inspection I found there were no aileron balance rods although the
mounts were there. Does anyone know what weight they should be please?
Many thanks, Norman
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Kolb owner |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
Greetings Norman, welcome to the list.
The counterbalances are a solid steel bar 20" long, disconnect the aileron pushrod
and slide the bar in and out of the mount until the aileron has a neutral
balance. Secure the bar at that point.
Here is a little info: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468172#468172
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blue Bird Flight |
John, I meant to thank you for tailwheel strut info. Makes sense to me. I'll
give shortening it up a bit a try. I just left the length the same as the o
riginal fiberglass strut.
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
> On Apr 9, 2017, at 12:08 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> I think George H has invented a new model Firestar, the MKI.
>
> If memory serves me correctly these are the Firestar models. Ya'll correc
t me if I am wrong.
>
> -Firestar
> -Firestar KXP
> -Firestar II
>
> Don't think there was a MKI, but I know what you are getting at. Folks, n
ot Homer Kolb, decided to call the first FS model the "original" FS, and the
"original" MKIII.
>
> BTW: You could cut that tail wheel strut in half and still have more stru
t than you will ever need. Shortening the strut reduces torsional twist, bo
uncing, bending, and wiggling. Makes tail wheel steering a little tighter.
I use a 6" (exposed length) .120" wall heat treated 4130 strut. Works good
on Miss P'fer.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:19 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
>
> John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the ne
w breakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather up he
re in northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on the old Fi
restar MK1, so I can try it out.
>
>
> George H.
> Firestar MK1, #FS100
> 14GDH
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
> Mesick, Michigan
>
>
> Have a great day!
>
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job l
oaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get me h
alfway to Lakeland.
>
> The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
>
> I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
>
> 35-36 mph clean.
>
> 32 mph 20 deg flaps.
>
> 30 mph 40 deg flaps.
>
> Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them. I
can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
>
> Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very cl
ose, if at all.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | You've heard of the short wing Pipers, |
How about a short nosed Kolb?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
(restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that
it spent its entire past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to
free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is
a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he
says that it always cooled fine running it free-air with some added
ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Blue Bird Flight |
George H/Kolbers:
The two photos will give you an idea what mine looks like.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
John, I meant to thank you for tailwheel strut info. Makes sense to me.
I'll give shortening it up a bit a try. I just left the length the same
as the original fiberglass strut.
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
On Apr 9, 2017, at 12:08 AM, John Hauck wrote:
I think George H has invented a new model Firestar, the MKI.
If memory serves me correctly these are the Firestar models. Ya'll
correct me if I am wrong.
-Firestar
-Firestar KXP
-Firestar II
Don't think there was a MKI, but I know what you are getting at. Folks,
not Homer Kolb, decided to call the first FS model the "original" FS,
and the "original" MKIII.
BTW: You could cut that tail wheel strut in half and still have more
strut than you will ever need. Shortening the strut reduces torsional
twist, bouncing, bending, and wiggling. Makes tail wheel steering a
little tighter. I use a 6" (exposed length) .120" wall heat treated
4130 strut. Works good on Miss P'fer.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the
new breakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather
up here in northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on
the old Firestar MK1, so I can try it out.
George H.
Firestar MK1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job
loaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get
me halfway to Lakeland.
The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
35-36 mph clean.
32 mph 20 deg flaps.
30 mph 40 deg flaps.
Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them.
I can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very
close, if at all.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: You've heard of the short wing Pipers, |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
I'm waiting for Mr. Bean to peek over the windshield...
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468209#468209
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
Charlie E/Kolbers:
I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It takes
a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold with
vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to prevent
spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably have
never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an old
fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This
I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in a
wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were rusted
well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on-exhibit-at-state-museum
I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully. Yours
may be an exception.
Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular model
and kits only produced a couple years.
Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important to
me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems to
be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its entire
past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free air
cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers can
share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or recommended
updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at least
some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the ailerons,
etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Kolb owner |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
Boyd Young of the list sent me a PM, good question, he said: "Do you do this with
or without removing the flap connected? If with the flap, do you remove
the flap pushrod? Explain Your answer..."
Wish I could, it's been long enough I don't rightly remember. I went out to the
hangar just now and disconnected the aileron pushrod, and the aileron went to
a neutral position, the counterbalance was pretty much aligned alongside the
wingtip. Waggled the flaps and ailerons, and it kept going back to that general
position.
Which makes sense; where the flaps are attached to the back side of the aileron
torque tube, they contribute a little weight to the ailerons, but at a very short
moment arm.
I'm sure there was some info that came from Kolb, but I no longer have it, and
obviously it was not in the original documentation. If I remember correctly (HAH)
I raised the tail up so that the bottom of the wing was horizontal, disconnected
the ailerons, and slid the weight in and out until the ailerons aligned
with the bottom of the wing.
Why not call Kolb and ask them? Since they have been including counterbalances
in the kits for over 15 years now, they will probably be able to tell you a lot
better than any of us could.
I do remember that there was a lot of kerfluffle on the Kolb list the year before
I installed them, which my airframe log shows as 1999. The list doesn't go
back that far, it only goes to 2006, but if you do a search on "Aileron Flutter"
you will see a lot of posts about it, it was still a big deal, but no specifics
on how to install the counterbalances.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468211#468211
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when
driving out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier
experimentals I've owned. I've got a spring loaded center punch that I
ground to a flat nosed, straight shaft, & use it to punch out driven
rivets after drilling the heads. I also use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack
saw 'V'.
I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught
that's used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something
to protect from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know
you've got a problem.
The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he
had added some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may
well have added a 'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends
near the prop for extraction. We'll see.
We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing
lateral bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very
thin gauge aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier
fabric wing a/c to provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and
also provide a smooth, more aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a
little aero cleanup :-) ).
I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm
curious about any mods people have been successful with.
Thanks,
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>
> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>
> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It takes
a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to prevent
spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>
> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an old
fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This
I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>
> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were rusted
well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>
> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>
> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>
> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular model
and kits only produced a couple years.
>
> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>
> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
>
> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>
> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>
> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>
> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or recommended
updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>
> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
" We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.'
Charlie E/Gents:
I didn't say "leading edge ribs", I said "leading edge." Lateral bracing on the
leading edge tube keeps the noses of the ribs in column. Weak lateral, or little
or no lateral bracing will allow the ribs to come out of column and fail.
I know this by experience.
Homer Kolb did not wrap the leading edge with alum sheet, and did not recommend
doing this. He felt his bow tip design and the valleys between ribs improved
slow speed flight and decreased stall speed. Kolbs all use the same airfoil,
all models, and have always been great slow speed performers, long before VGs.
Homer's idea of flying was low and slow, right down in the tree tops to stay
in touch with what was going on down there. He liked to fly with the birds.
Thus the large ailerons and high lift wing.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when driving out
mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier experimentals I've owned.
I've got a spring loaded center punch that I ground to a flat nosed, straight
shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets after drilling the heads. I also use
small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack saw 'V'.
I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught that's
used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something to protect
from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know you've got a
problem.
The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he had added
some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may well have added a
'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends near the prop for extraction.
We'll see.
We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very thin gauge
aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier fabric wing a/c to
provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and also provide a smooth, more
aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a little aero cleanup :-) ).
I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm curious
about any mods people have been successful with.
Thanks,
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>
> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>
> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It takes
a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to prevent
spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>
> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an old
fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This
I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>
> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were rusted
well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>
> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites
> -on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>
> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>
> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular model
and kits only produced a couple years.
>
> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>
> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
> -->
>
> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>
> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>
> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>
> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or recommended
updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>
> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Kolb owner |
I experienced aileron flutter with all three of my Kolbs, US, FS, and MKIII.
I made up some counterbalance weights when I was building the MKIII because
I had a good idea I would continue to have flutter problems. My weights did
more to aggravate flutter than prevent it. First approach into Wetumpka
Airport went into flutter, snatching the stick out of my hand. Got it on
the ground and removed them. Anything over 80 mph and they would start to
flutter. Could not get Kolb Aircraft to believe we had an aileron flutter
problem. Miss P'fer was new, flew to Lakeland, Homer's in PA, and OSH. One
eye on the ASI and one out of the cockpit. Flew a photo shoot off a Cessna
210 at OSH. He had trouble slowing to 80 and I went into flutter over 80.
Getting ready to do my first flight to Alaska. Sun and Fun 1994. Dick
Rahill was hauling butt back from South Lakeland to the UL strip with a
thunderstorm hot on his tail. Turbulent air, WOT, all the sudden the FSII
went into violent aileron flutter. Dick was white as a sheet when he
landed. Got his attention. Now they believed me. Less than a week after I
returned to Alabama I had a set of FSII aileron counterbalance weights and
mounts. I made them work on the MKIII. Never had an inkling of coming
anywhere near aileron flutter after installation. They work.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New Kolb owner
-->
Boyd Young of the list sent me a PM, good question, he said: "Do you do this
with or without removing the flap connected? If with the flap, do you
remove the flap pushrod? Explain Your answer..."
Wish I could, it's been long enough I don't rightly remember. I went out to
the hangar just now and disconnected the aileron pushrod, and the aileron
went to a neutral position, the counterbalance was pretty much aligned
alongside the wingtip. Waggled the flaps and ailerons, and it kept going
back to that general position.
Which makes sense; where the flaps are attached to the back side of the
aileron torque tube, they contribute a little weight to the ailerons, but at
a very short moment arm.
I'm sure there was some info that came from Kolb, but I no longer have it,
and obviously it was not in the original documentation. If I remember
correctly (HAH) I raised the tail up so that the bottom of the wing was
horizontal, disconnected the ailerons, and slid the weight in and out until
the ailerons aligned with the bottom of the wing.
Why not call Kolb and ask them? Since they have been including
counterbalances in the kits for over 15 years now, they will probably be
able to tell you a lot better than any of us could.
I do remember that there was a lot of kerfluffle on the Kolb list the year
before I installed them, which my airframe log shows as 1999. The list
doesn't go back that far, it only goes to 2006, but if you do a search on
"Aileron Flutter" you will see a lot of posts about it, it was still a big
deal, but no specifics on how to install the counterbalances.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468211#468211
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, you did. Sorry; I've got to adjust to having 3 spars instead of 2.
:-) Thank you for the info.
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 7:57 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> " We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.'
>
> Charlie E/Gents:
>
> I didn't say "leading edge ribs", I said "leading edge." Lateral bracing on
the leading edge tube keeps the noses of the ribs in column. Weak lateral, or
little or no lateral bracing will allow the ribs to come out of column and fail.
I know this by experience.
>
> Homer Kolb did not wrap the leading edge with alum sheet, and did not recommend
doing this. He felt his bow tip design and the valleys between ribs improved
slow speed flight and decreased stall speed. Kolbs all use the same airfoil,
all models, and have always been great slow speed performers, long before VGs.
Homer's idea of flying was low and slow, right down in the tree tops to stay
in touch with what was going on down there. He liked to fly with the birds.
Thus the large ailerons and high lift wing.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 7:18 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
>
> Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when driving
out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier experimentals I've owned.
I've got a spring loaded center punch that I ground to a flat nosed, straight
shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets after drilling the heads. I also
use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
> (diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack saw
'V'.
> I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught that's
used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something to protect
from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
> pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know you've got
a problem.
>
> The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he had added
some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may well have added
a 'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends near the prop for extraction.
We'll see.
>
> We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
> Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
> Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very thin gauge
aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier fabric wing a/c
to provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and also provide a smooth, more
aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a little aero cleanup :-) ).
>
> I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm curious
about any mods people have been successful with.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>>
>> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>>
>> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It
takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to
prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>>
>> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an
old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to.
This I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>>
>> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were
rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>>
>> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites
>> -on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>>
>> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>>
>> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular
model and kits only produced a couple years.
>>
>> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>>
>> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>>
>> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
>> England
>> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>>
>> -->
>>
>> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>>
>> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
>> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>>
>> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>>
>> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
>> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or
recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>>
>> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>>
>> Any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
I don't have that problem since I have never built or flown anything but Kolbs
and a few helicopters.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
Yes, you did. Sorry; I've got to adjust to having 3 spars instead of 2.
:-) Thank you for the info.
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 7:57 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> " We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.'
>
> Charlie E/Gents:
>
> I didn't say "leading edge ribs", I said "leading edge." Lateral bracing on
the leading edge tube keeps the noses of the ribs in column. Weak lateral, or
little or no lateral bracing will allow the ribs to come out of column and fail.
I know this by experience.
>
> Homer Kolb did not wrap the leading edge with alum sheet, and did not recommend
doing this. He felt his bow tip design and the valleys between ribs improved
slow speed flight and decreased stall speed. Kolbs all use the same airfoil,
all models, and have always been great slow speed performers, long before VGs.
Homer's idea of flying was low and slow, right down in the tree tops to stay
in touch with what was going on down there. He liked to fly with the birds.
Thus the large ailerons and high lift wing.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 7:18 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
> -->
>
> Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when driving
out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier experimentals I've owned.
I've got a spring loaded center punch that I ground to a flat nosed, straight
shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets after drilling the heads. I also
use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
> (diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack saw
'V'.
> I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught that's
used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something to protect
from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
> pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know you've got
a problem.
>
> The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he had added
some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may well have added
a 'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends near the prop for extraction.
We'll see.
>
> We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
> Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
> Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very thin gauge
aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier fabric wing a/c
to provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and also provide a smooth, more
aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a little aero cleanup :-) ).
>
> I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm curious
about any mods people have been successful with.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>>
>> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>>
>> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It
takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to
prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>>
>> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an
old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to.
This I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>>
>> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were
rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>>
>> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-site
>> s
>> -on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>>
>> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>>
>> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular
model and kits only produced a couple years.
>>
>> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>>
>> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>>
>> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
>> England
>> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>>
>> -->
>>
>> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>>
>> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
>> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>>
>> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>>
>> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
>> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or
recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>>
>> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>>
>> Any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norman <norm2mac(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re - New Kolb owner |
Many thanks for the info - the link to the "yellow Book" was very
informative.
Norman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GARY JINDRA <gajindra(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
take a snap punch and grind the tip down to be small enough to knock out th
e rivet mandrels. Then the rivets will drill straight with out enlarging th
e original hole
=C2-Gary Jindramark 111c912ul 420 hours
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 5:34 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
(restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that
it spent its entire past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to
free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is
a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he=C2- tells me, and he
says that it always=C2- cooled fine running it free-air with some added
ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
Thanks, Gary; I've got one modified like that.
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:01 AM, GARY JINDRA
wrote:
> take a snap punch and grind the tip down to be small enough to knock out
> the rivet mandrels. Then the rivets will drill straight with out enlarging
> the original hole
>
> *Gary Jindra*
> mark 111c
> 912ul 420 hours
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Charlie England
> *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 9, 2017 5:34 PM
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
>
> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>
> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
> (restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
> seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that
> it spent its entire past life in central FL.
>
> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to
> free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is
> a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he
> says that it always cooled fine running it free-air with some added
> ducting.
>
> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
> a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
> Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
> make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
> service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
> advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
> later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
> surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
> does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>
> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
> remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> _====================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://wiki.matro=======================
> <http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | covering supplier? |
Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service,
etc) than A/C Spruce?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mojavjoe(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Charlie
Use the covering that A/C Spruce refers to as peel ply.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:45:01 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service, etc) than
A/C Spruce?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks; I've heard of using regular polyester fabric. But at roughly a
$3 price delta, it's only a $40 spread for all the fabric I'll need.
On 4/10/2017 9:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. :-)
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Do a little research, the latex may be heavier than some other systems.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/10/17, Charlie England wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:53 PM
England
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place,
then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric
guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that
a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, &
we should be good to go. :-)
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Hoppy
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but
think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material
charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy
wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted by: Hoppy
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5
bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM,
Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering
supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C
Spruce?
>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses
by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
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7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
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via the Web Forums!
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- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
This is the reference I've used; he supplies links to other research that
he did.
http://wienerdogaero.com/Latex.php
I'm not paranoid about occasional use of most chemicals, but something
cleaner/safer will work just as well, and save a bit of money at the same
time, I'll take it. But don't expect mine to look like the results he gets.
:-)
Charlie
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:20 AM, Bill Berle
wrote:
>
> Do a little research, the latex may be heavier than some other systems.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 4/10/17, Charlie England wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:53 PM
>
> England
>
> Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place,
> then.
>
> My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric
> guy) is willing to try Stewart
> System glue, so I think we'll give that
> a shot. That plus Wienerdog
> Aero's Latex painting technique, &
> we should be good to go. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: Hoppy
> >
> > Haven't checked in a while..but
> think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> > chemicals with no haz material
> charge...? Herb
> >
> >
> > On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy
> wrote:
> >> --> Kolb-List message
> posted by: Hoppy
> >>
> >> Yep..Peel ply... around 5
> bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM,
> Charlie England wrote:
> >>> Anyone using a covering
> supplier that's better (cheaper, better
> >>> service, etc) than A/C
> Spruce?
> >>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mojavjoe(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Charlie
Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart
at half the price
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. :-)
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Joe
Wondering if Fastbond would work with the Acetone,MEK based Poly
Fiber products? I still have a quart of Poly Tac...but might use it
for my next project...Herb
On 04/11/2017 07:27 AM, mojavjoe(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Charlie
>
> Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on Amazon, it's the same adhesive
> as Stewart at half the price
>
> Joe
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
> *To: *"kolb-list"
> *Sent: *Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
>
>
> Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
>
> My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
> System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
> Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> >
> > Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> > chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
> >
> >
> > On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> >>
> >> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> >>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
> >>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
> >>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirbsp;
> -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
On Tue, 4/11/17, wrote:
"Fastbond NF Green -- half the price"
YEAH, baby :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
What about this price... :)
https://www.evroberts.com/3m-24/fastbond-30-nf-green-1120/
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/11/17, wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
To: "kolb-list"
Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 5:27 AM
Charlie
Another tip,buy Fastbond NF Green on
Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewartat half
the price
Joe
From:
"Charlie England"
To: "kolb-list"
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is
willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That
plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good
to go. :-)
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce
can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or
2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's
better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirbsp;
-Matt
Dralle, List Adm========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Guess we need to get together on a quantity buy...:-) I will take a
quart with free shipping....:-) Herb
On 04/11/2017 09:23 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> What about this price... :)
>
> https://www.evroberts.com/3m-24/fastbond-30-nf-green-1120/
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 4/11/17, wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
> To: "kolb-list"
> Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 5:27 AM
>
> Charlie
>
> Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on
> Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half
> the price
>
> Joe
>
> From:
> "Charlie England"
>
> To: "kolb-list"
>
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
>
>
>
> Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
>
> My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is
> willing to try Stewart
> System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That
> plus Wienerdog
> Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good
> to go. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> >
> > Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce
> can ship Poly Fiber
> > chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
> >
> >
> > On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or
> 2.6. Herb
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> >>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's
> better (cheaper, better
> >>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
> >>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirbsp;
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Adm========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Hey Herb,
Looks like I might need to rethink that. Are you talking about this:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/peelply3.php
vs this:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/polyfiberuncertified.php
?
The peel ply doesn't have any thread count or strength specs on the Spruce
site, so I can't directly compare. Measurements indicate that I can
half-wrap the wing with a 5' width of the peel ply, so the extra foot of
Polyfiber would just get cut away, anyway.
Thanks,
Charlie
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Charlie England
wrote:
> Thanks; I've heard of using regular polyester fabric. But at roughly a $3
> price delta, it's only a $40 spread for all the fabric I'll need.
>
> On 4/10/2017 9:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service,
>>> etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>>
>>
>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
the heavier fabric is much easier to work with imho.. 2.7 peel
ply...just need to be careful tautening the fabric on the wings..
Interestingly...the older Challengers had no bottom rib runners...and
the fabric just layed across the front and real spar.. root rib to wing
tip!! a real flap in the breeze...I can imagine hitting a duck and
having a real problem...not so much with a Kolb...Herb
On 04/11/2017 11:57 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> Hey Herb,
>
> Looks like I might need to rethink that. Are you talking about this:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/peelply3.php
> vs this:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/polyfiberuncertified.php
>
> ?
>
> The peel ply doesn't have any thread count or strength specs on the
> Spruce site, so I can't directly compare. Measurements indicate that I
> can half-wrap the wing with a 5' width of the peel ply, so the extra
> foot of Polyfiber would just get cut away, anyway.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Charlie England
> > wrote:
>
> Thanks; I've heard of using regular polyester fabric. But at
> roughly a $3 price delta, it's only a $40 spread for all the
> fabric I'll need.
>
> On 4/10/2017 9:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> >
>
> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper,
> better service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mojavjoe(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Bill
I 'm reusing a pair of wings. I've already recovered one wing using the Stewart
system and painted it along the lines of Weiner Dog, except I'm painting art
scenes on the wings so more paint than normal. Weighed recovered wing against
wing with old poly fiber. The new wing only weighed 3 oz more
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 10:23:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
What about this price... :)
https://www.evroberts.com/3m-24/fastbond-30-nf-green-1120/
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/11/17, wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 5:27 AM
Charlie
Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on
Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half
the price
Joe
From:
"Charlie England"
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is
willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That
plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good
to go. :-)
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce
can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or
2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's
better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirbsp;
-Matt
Dralle, List Adm=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | covering supplier? |
Kolbers:
I have never been one to mix and match when it came to covering an
aircraft. Always used the Stitts/Polyfiber process.
I never forget the unforgiving environment us aviators play.
Always sad when I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because of a
covering mix and match mistake.
Realize it cost more to use the Polyfiber process, but am also
comfortable knowing it'll be there for a long time. My right wing and
most of my tail section is 26 year old Stitts process. Left wing is 16
years old.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
| Subject: | covering supplier? |
I asked Malcom about this at OSH a few years back. He said the weight is almost
identical. He can sure put a beautiful finish on fabric!
This is the perfect system for those who:
Want to work without the "stink"
Save money.
Have more time than I do....
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
Do a little research, the latex may be heavier than some other systems.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/10/17, Charlie England wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:53 PM
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place,
then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric
guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog Aero's Latex
painting technique, & we should be good to go. :-)
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Hoppy
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but
think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material
charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy
wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted by: Hoppy
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5
bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM,
Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering
supplier that's better (cheaper, better >>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses
by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
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support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
I appreciate the caution, and I'm not that prone to stray where no one's
been before, either. I did order Poly brand cloth (polyester), and the
Stewart System glue.Both the latex finishing technique, and the Stewart
adhesive have been around for a long time, so I'm comfortable with those
decisions.
The Steve Whitman story, as I remember it, was that he switched from the
old 'dope' and course weave fabric to the newer process. The story I heard
was that the dope & course weave allowed you to position the fabric and
then just apply dope to the outside, and it soaked through to the ribs. But
the new, finer weave fabric & adhesive required applying the adhesive
directly to the ribs, positioning the fabric, and then applying additional
adhesive over the fabric, because the weave was too tight for the adhesive
to easily soak through. Again, as I remember it, he mixed *techniques*; not
the actual chemicals. By only applying the adhesive on the outside, only a
minimal amount made it through to the ribs.
Those with better memories, feel free to correct me if I'm mis-remembering.
Charlie
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:43 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Kolbers:
>
>
> I have never been one to mix and match when it came to covering an
> aircraft. Always used the Stitts/Polyfiber process.
>
>
> I never forget the unforgiving environment us aviators play.
>
>
> Always sad when I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because of a
> covering mix and match mistake.
>
>
> Realize it cost more to use the Polyfiber process, but am also comfortable
> knowing it'll be there for a long time. My right wing and most of my tail
> section is 26 year old Stitts process. Left wing is 16 years old.
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
I appreciate the caution, and I'm not that prone to stray where no one's
been before, either. I did order Poly brand cloth (polyester), and the
Stewart System glue.Both the latex finishing technique, and the Stewart
adhesive have been around for a long time, so I'm comfortable with those
decisions.
The Steve Whitman story, as I remember it, was that he switched from the
old 'dope' and course weave fabric to the newer process. The story I heard
was that the dope & course weave allowed you to position the fabric and
then just apply dope to the outside, and it soaked through to the ribs. But
the new, finer weave fabric & adhesive required applying the adhesive
directly to the ribs, positioning the fabric, and then applying additional
adhesive over the fabric, because the weave was too tight for the adhesive
to easily soak through. Again, as I remember it, he mixed *techniques*; not
the actual chemicals. By only applying the adhesive on the outside, only a
minimal amount made it through to the ribs.
Those with better memories, feel free to correct me if I'm mis-remembering.
Charlie
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:43 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Kolbers:
>
>
> I have never been one to mix and match when it came to covering an
> aircraft. Always used the Stitts/Polyfiber process.
>
>
> I never forget the unforgiving environment us aviators play.
>
>
> Always sad when I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because of a
> covering mix and match mistake.
>
>
> Realize it cost more to use the Polyfiber process, but am also comfortable
> knowing it'll be there for a long time. My right wing and most of my tail
> section is 26 year old Stitts process. Left wing is 16 years old.
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Lanny Lambdin <lambdinwilliam(at)gmail.com> |
Hey, Guys,
Just to add my 2 cents--I used the Stewart system on my second plane, after
using Polyfiber on my first. It was a joy not dealing with MEK. The glue worked
great, just be sure to wipe off the excess as you go. Two words of caution:
1-the filler/ uv block coating absorbs moisture and the finish colors "hate" water.
The "how to" videos from the company on YouTube suggest using alcohol on
the surface to get rid of finger prints before applying the color coats. I did
so
and when I started spraying color, it splotched and ran like I was spraying oil
on water. I thought there must still be oil on the fabric, so I cleaned with alcohol
Even more lavishly this time. After allowing to dry(I thought). Sprayed and same
result. Called company and they told me that the surface was absorbing the
water in the alcohol. Evidently the Eco fill (uv block and fabric filler) is hydrophilic,
and the color coats hydrophobic! I had to use alcohol sparingly and dry all
surfaces with time in the sun(when available and with heaters to stop the
problem.
2-- make sure the paint is mixed to the exact viscosity and make sure your
compressed can deliver continuous sufficient pressure. I had to really work
not to get orange peel effect. My paint job looks great from 10 or 15' but up
close there are areas of silky smooth finish and areas of slight orange peel.
Good luck,
Lanny Lambdin. P.S. On YouTube is a video- search for: Miss Sunshine Walkaround,
to see the results on my plane.
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 11, 2017, at 4:33 PM, Stuart Harner wrote:
>
>
> I asked Malcom about this at OSH a few years back. He said the weight is almost
identical. He can sure put a beautiful finish on fabric!
>
> This is the perfect system for those who:
> Want to work without the "stink"
> Save money.
> Have more time than I do....
>
> Stuart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 12:21 AM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
>
>
> Do a little research, the latex may be heavier than some other systems.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 4/10/17, Charlie England wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:53 PM
>
>
> Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place,
> then.
>
> My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric
> guy) is willing to try Stewart
> System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog Aero's
Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
>> On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: Hoppy
>>
>> Haven't checked in a while..but
> think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
>> chemicals with no haz material
> charge...? Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy
> wrote:
>>> --> Kolb-List message
> posted by: Hoppy
>>>
>>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5
> bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM,
> Charlie England wrote:
>>>> Anyone using a covering
> supplier that's better (cheaper, better >>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses
> by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | "phcpilot" <cowan.phc(at)gmail.com> |
Here are my experiences with Latex which include a re-paint over an auto finish,
re-cover of a fuselage and painting a stits type covering.
The re-paint was on a fuselage which had some cracking and chipping of an older
auto finish from firewall back past trailing edge of a Rans S7. I sanded and
filled the crack/chip areas with poly filla (Yup) then had the hardware store
do a colour match of some exterior latex paint. Actually these days it is called
water based acrylic. Years ago you couldn't sand latex due to its rubbery
nature. Not so these days.
The result looked great with sort of a low gloss dope type finish. I have kept
in touch with the owner of the plane because even I was skeptical of how long
it would last. It has been many years now and he is still happy.
In addition to acrylic paints, you should also keep clear water base urethane in
mind. I recovered my homebuilt 170 fuselage (steel tube/fabric) and used clear
urethane as first fill coat on the fabric and then put tapes on with it. It
was great to work with. Also used the green hardware store water based contact
cement for glue.
Then sprayed on gloss acylic latex for finish coats. A buddy who is a long time
dope and fabric guy was amazed at how great the tape seams and fill looked. At
that time the glossiest acrylic was about as dull as a dope finish but with
a lot fewer coats.
Next I've done a complete S7 with acrylic using a cheap primer fill coat followed
by gloss colour coats. High gloss is not an attribute of acrylic unless you
want to do all that buffing but with a product from Home Hardware called Rust
coat the finish is the best I've seen. Yes if you need a mirror finish be prepared
to work but for a great looking dope or better than polytone, little sanding
is required.
For years I followed the suggestion from one site to use an airless sprayer. This
was mistake, they put out way too much paint even with the fine nozzles. An
inexpensive $50 HVLP gun is just fine and with way less likelihood of runs.
Peter
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468328#468328
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
To badly misquote Gertrude Stein, polyester is polyester is polyester. If
you have the same weight fabric regardless of trade names (like Dacron for
instance) and it's 100% polyester, its physical characteristics are going
to be the same. Where you run into trouble is if any additives, called
sizings, are put on the fabric.
The first aircraft I covered was an Easyriser back in the mid seventies.
Nitrate and butyrate dope over polyester dress sheathing. Worked great but
I had to recover one wing and the kit didn't have any spare fabric so I
went to the nearest fabric store with a sample. Which is where I learned
about dress sheathing. I went home, covered the wing and finished it and
moved on. Later I told a buddy this story when he was in need of fabric for
his Catto wing project. He went to a different fabric store and the results
were terrible. Which is where I learned about sizings. Seems that some
manufacturers add a sizing containing silicone. Nothing sticks to it, which
is great for slips and petty coats but not so much if you want to add
further coatings on top of it. The same applies if you use it for peel ply.
The silicone migrates to the composite and you're done for.
That's the caveat you should beware of if you go shopping for polyester.
Spruce and Wicks have peel ply that is sizing free, the same as Polyfiber,
it just doesn't have the stamp.
Rick Girard
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
I may have been given incorrect info many years ago. Never did the
research on it. I was informed the difference between polyester Dacron
for aircraft and for nurses' uniforms was:
-Fabric for aircraft, both certified and uncertified was not preshrunk.
-Fabric for uniforms/clothing was preshrunk.
I was also told that a lubricate was applied to the threads of polyester
Dacron during the weaving process to prevent the threads from burning.
Threads are extremely small and weaving is extremely tight.
I remember the problems I encountered with Stitts or Polyfiber HS90X.
Very light weight, but loaded with lubricant. Unknown to me I started
shooting dope and have never seen so many fish eyes. The fabric folks
told me I needed to scrub the fabric with MEK prior to painting. This
lightweight fabric was difficult to work with and vulnerable to
punctures during covering. After that one time with HS90X I went back
to D-103. The difference in weight was negligible but far greater
durability. I can deal with a little extra weight, but I need
durability. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Girard
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:55 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Polyester cloth
To badly misquote Gertrude Stein, polyester is polyester is polyester.
If you have the same weight fabric regardless of trade names (like
Dacron for instance) and it's 100% polyester, its physical
characteristics are going to be the same. Where you run into trouble is
if any additives, called sizings, are put on the fabric.
The first aircraft I covered was an Easyriser back in the mid seventies.
Nitrate and butyrate dope over polyester dress sheathing. Worked great
but I had to recover one wing and the kit didn't have any spare fabric
so I went to the nearest fabric store with a sample. Which is where I
learned about dress sheathing. I went home, covered the wing and
finished it and moved on. Later I told a buddy this story when he was in
need of fabric for his Catto wing project. He went to a different fabric
store and the results were terrible. Which is where I learned about
sizings. Seems that some manufacturers add a sizing containing silicone.
Nothing sticks to it, which is great for slips and petty coats but not
so much if you want to add further coatings on top of it. The same
applies if you use it for peel ply. The silicone migrates to the
composite and you're done for.
That's the caveat you should beware of if you go shopping for polyester.
Spruce and Wicks have peel ply that is sizing free, the same as
Polyfiber, it just doesn't have the stamp.
Rick Girard
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the
light.=9D
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, Peter.
For you guys who've used latex, did you stick with the Glidden Gripper
grey primer as shown on the Wienerdog Aero site, or something else? I
can get the white primer (and other brands) locally, but will have to
order the grey.
No polishing for me; I'll be happy if the paint stays on & prevents UV
damage.
Thanks,
Charlie
On 4/12/2017 7:57 AM, phcpilot wrote:
>
> Here are my experiences with Latex which include a re-paint over an auto finish,
re-cover of a fuselage and painting a stits type covering.
>
> The re-paint was on a fuselage which had some cracking and chipping of an older
auto finish from firewall back past trailing edge of a Rans S7. I sanded and
filled the crack/chip areas with poly filla (Yup) then had the hardware store
do a colour match of some exterior latex paint. Actually these days it is called
water based acrylic. Years ago you couldn't sand latex due to its rubbery
nature. Not so these days.
> The result looked great with sort of a low gloss dope type finish. I have kept
in touch with the owner of the plane because even I was skeptical of how long
it would last. It has been many years now and he is still happy.
>
> In addition to acrylic paints, you should also keep clear water base urethane
in mind. I recovered my homebuilt 170 fuselage (steel tube/fabric) and used clear
urethane as first fill coat on the fabric and then put tapes on with it.
It was great to work with. Also used the green hardware store water based contact
cement for glue.
>
> Then sprayed on gloss acylic latex for finish coats. A buddy who is a long time
dope and fabric guy was amazed at how great the tape seams and fill looked.
At that time the glossiest acrylic was about as dull as a dope finish but with
a lot fewer coats.
>
> Next I've done a complete S7 with acrylic using a cheap primer fill coat followed
by gloss colour coats. High gloss is not an attribute of acrylic unless you
want to do all that buffing but with a product from Home Hardware called Rust
coat the finish is the best I've seen. Yes if you need a mirror finish be prepared
to work but for a great looking dope or better than polytone, little sanding
is required.
>
> For years I followed the suggestion from one site to use an airless sprayer.
This was mistake, they put out way too much paint even with the fine nozzles.
An inexpensive $50 HVLP gun is just fine and with way less likelihood of runs.
> Peter
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Hi Joe,
Has anyone verified that it's actually the same stuff? It might look,
smell, feel, even taste the same, but the TDS for Fastbond reads like plain
old contact cement. No mention of using heat to activate it, as described
by Stewart.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is the same stuff, but I'd like to *know*
it's the same stuff.
Thanks,
Charlie
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 7:27 AM, wrote:
> Charlie
>
> Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on Amazon, it's the same adhesive as
> Stewart at half the price
>
> Joe
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
> *To: *"kolb-list"
> *Sent: *Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
>
>
> Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
>
> My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
> System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
> Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> >
> > Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> > chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
> >
> >
> > On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> >>
> >> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> >>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
> >>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
> >>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirbsp;
> -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:15 PM, wrote:
> Charlie
>
> Use the covering that A/C Spruce refers to as peel ply.
>
> Joe
>
I almost ordered it, but it's only 5' wide & I wasn't sure if that would
have enough 'wrap' to do one side of a wing. If I do this sort of thing
again, I'll certainly give it a try.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Polyester cloth |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
Thanks Rick - good memories. I also recovered an Easy Riser with polyester dress
sheath, guess I got lucky. I was so ignorant I didn't know you were supposed
to use heat to shrink it; I treated it like a big model airplane and used enough
clothespins, small weights and clamps that it was basically pretty tight once
the glue dried. Then I brushed a couple coats of nitrate dope on it and it
shrank up just like brushing Aero-Gloss on silk.
Bought it used from Glen Rinck (who is on the FB U/L list) but since he was heavier
than I was, if I hit a thermal under power and the seat unweighted, it would
pitch over. Pretty scary. Called Chuck Slusarczyk and told him what I was
doing and he gave me all the proper angles and measurements to rig the engine
position/thrust line so it wouldn't kill me. From then on it flew just as stable
as you could ask for.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468350#468350
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyester cloth |
I really miss Chuck Slusarczyk. Never got to fly with him, and I wasn't around
the scene in the early UL days, but I met him through the old "usenet" internet
forums, and then met him in person once or twice. Great guy, big heart. A model
airplane builder and free flighter to boot :)
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/12/17, Richard Pike wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Polyester cloth
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 12, 2017, 2:33 PM
Pike"
Thanks Rick - good memories. I also
recovered an Easy Riser with polyester dress sheath, guess I
got lucky. I was so ignorant I didn't know you were supposed
to use heat to shrink it; I treated it like a big model
airplane and used enough clothespins, small weights and
clamps that it was basically pretty tight once the glue
dried. Then I brushed a couple coats of nitrate dope on it
and it shrank up just like brushing Aero-Gloss on silk.
Bought it used from Glen Rinck (who is
on the FB U/L list) but since he was heavier than I was, if
I hit a thermal under power and the seat unweighted, it
would pitch over. Pretty scary. Called Chuck Slusarczyk and
told him what I was doing and he gave me all the proper
angles and measurements to rig the engine position/thrust
line so it wouldn't kill me. From then on it flew just as
stable as you could ask for.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is
wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468350#468350
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery |
Well Kolbers, it's like this...
My Firestar has Azusa Tri-Star 6 inch aluminum wheels on it. I want to keep the
Azusa wheels because I can change a tire out in the field without having to have
a big hydraulic tire changing machine (and Mariachi music in the background).
I just bought a beautiful set of Tracy O'Brien hydraulic brakes for it. I want
to use the Desser Tire Co.'s new 21 inch 8.00 x 6 "oversize tundra" tires. With
the long gear legs and the big tires, I'll need an oxygen bottle to climb into
the seat :)
Boyd was kind enough to relate a story to me, about these tires not seating correctly
on the wheel. Apparently he had a set of these tires that he could spin
by hand on the wheel. That ain't right in my book either.
So I called Desser tire Co. I asked the guy whether these tires should spin on
the wheel. He said yes they do spin until you put air in them, and then you can't
spin them. But this does NOT match my experience with putting wheels and
tires together on my Cessna 172. Then I said I was putting these tires on Azusa
wheels. He called me back 30 minutes later, said he went and checked with someone
in the engineering department, and that yes they did have problems with
Azusa wheels because they were too "flimsy". I asked what that had to do with
their tire fitting on a 6 inch wheel. He said that the Azusa wheels were "not
built to spec" and that's why they had problems. Put these tires on Matco wheels
and there's no problem.
That still didn't sound completely legit to me. Thousands of ultralights and light
airplanes have flown on Azusa wheels for many years. And other "6 inch" tires
seem to work just fine.
So now I'm confused (again???) as to whether the Desser tires are the problem or
the Azusa wheels are the problem.
Question 1 - Have other Kolbers with Azusa wheels had problems with the wheels
not "seating" on the tires, and hav ing the tires spin under braking?
Question 2 - Has anyone had problems with the Desser 21-8.00 x 6 oversize tundra
tires on any other TWO-PIECE wheels?
Question 3 - Is there a known, good, light weight, off-road alternative tire to
the Desser 21 inch tire for someone who wants large diameter tires? I have read
on the Kolb list months ago about how SOME of the Carlisle tires are way out
of balance, and how some golf cart tires work well and some don't, etc.
After the money I invested in the O'Brien brakes,a nd the money I would have to
spend to get different wheels and axles... I would PREFER to keep the Azusa wheels
I have.
With ALL due respect to those selling or flying with one piece wheels I am NOT
interested in one piece "spun" wheels. There are no tire shops at the places where
I plan to land my Kolb :)
Anyone with experience or knowledge on this particular problem using Azusa wheels
, I'm all ears!
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/12/17, Richard Pike wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Polyester cloth
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 12, 2017, 2:33 PM
Pike"
Thanks Rick - good memories. I also
recovered an Easy Riser with polyester dress sheath, guess I
got lucky. I was so ignorant I didn't know you were supposed
to use heat to shrink it; I treated it like a big model
airplane and used enough clothespins, small weights and
clamps that it was basically pretty tight once the glue
dried. Then I brushed a couple coats of nitrate dope on it
and it shrank up just like brushing Aero-Gloss on silk.
Bought it used from Glen Rinck (who is
on the FB U/L list) but since he was heavier than I was, if
I hit a thermal under power and the seat unweighted, it
would pitch over. Pretty scary. Called Chuck Slusarczyk and
told him what I was doing and he gave me all the proper
angles and measurements to rig the engine position/thrust
line so it wouldn't kill me. From then on it flew just as
stable as you could ask for.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is
wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468350#468350
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bill,
I can't directly address your specific components, but in 'off-roading'
(both automotive and aircraft), it's fairly common to run screws through
the rims into the beads of the tires. When running very low pressures,
it is possible to spin the tire on the rim, or even unseat the bead, if
there's significant side load on the tire. I've even done it in a golf
cart, when I got lazy & let the tire pressure get too low.
Charlie
On 4/12/2017 6:25 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> Well Kolbers, it's like this...
>
> My Firestar has Azusa Tri-Star 6 inch aluminum wheels on it. I want to keep the
Azusa wheels because I can change a tire out in the field without having to
have a big hydraulic tire changing machine (and Mariachi music in the background).
>
> I just bought a beautiful set of Tracy O'Brien hydraulic brakes for it. I want
to use the Desser Tire Co.'s new 21 inch 8.00 x 6 "oversize tundra" tires. With
the long gear legs and the big tires, I'll need an oxygen bottle to climb
into the seat :)
>
> Boyd was kind enough to relate a story to me, about these tires not seating correctly
on the wheel. Apparently he had a set of these tires that he could spin
by hand on the wheel. That ain't right in my book either.
>
> So I called Desser tire Co. I asked the guy whether these tires should spin on
the wheel. He said yes they do spin until you put air in them, and then you
can't spin them. But this does NOT match my experience with putting wheels and
tires together on my Cessna 172. Then I said I was putting these tires on Azusa
wheels. He called me back 30 minutes later, said he went and checked with
someone in the engineering department, and that yes they did have problems with
Azusa wheels because they were too "flimsy". I asked what that had to do with
their tire fitting on a 6 inch wheel. He said that the Azusa wheels were "not
built to spec" and that's why they had problems. Put these tires on Matco wheels
and there's no problem.
>
> That still didn't sound completely legit to me. Thousands of ultralights and
light airplanes have flown on Azusa wheels for many years. And other "6 inch"
tires seem to work just fine.
>
> So now I'm confused (again???) as to whether the Desser tires are the problem
or the Azusa wheels are the problem.
>
> Question 1 - Have other Kolbers with Azusa wheels had problems with the wheels
not "seating" on the tires, and hav ing the tires spin under braking?
>
> Question 2 - Has anyone had problems with the Desser 21-8.00 x 6 oversize tundra
tires on any other TWO-PIECE wheels?
>
> Question 3 - Is there a known, good, light weight, off-road alternative tire
to the Desser 21 inch tire for someone who wants large diameter tires? I have
read on the Kolb list months ago about how SOME of the Carlisle tires are way
out of balance, and how some golf cart tires work well and some don't, etc.
>
> After the money I invested in the O'Brien brakes,a nd the money I would have
to spend to get different wheels and axles... I would PREFER to keep the Azusa
wheels I have.
>
> With ALL due respect to those selling or flying with one piece wheels I am NOT
interested in one piece "spun" wheels. There are no tire shops at the places
where I plan to land my Kolb :)
>
> Anyone with experience or knowledge on this particular problem using Azusa wheels
, I'm all ears!
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/12/17, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Polyester cloth
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 12, 2017, 2:33 PM
>
> Pike"
>
> Thanks Rick - good memories. I also
> recovered an Easy Riser with polyester dress sheath, guess I
> got lucky. I was so ignorant I didn't know you were supposed
> to use heat to shrink it; I treated it like a big model
> airplane and used enough clothespins, small weights and
> clamps that it was basically pretty tight once the glue
> dried. Then I brushed a couple coats of nitrate dope on it
> and it shrank up just like brushing Aero-Gloss on silk.
>
> Bought it used from Glen Rinck (who is
> on the FB U/L list) but since he was heavier than I was, if
> I hit a thermal under power and the seat unweighted, it
> would pitch over. Pretty scary. Called Chuck Slusarczyk and
> told him what I was doing and he gave me all the proper
> angles and measurements to rig the engine position/thrust
> line so it wouldn't kill me. From then on it flew just as
> stable as you could ask for.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery |
I too have the new tundra tires waiting to be mounted, but what I am
waiting on is a new set of rims from Matco. I currently have Matco
hyd. brakes on the plane, and thought that I would keep my current
800X6 tires in reserve for a reason that escapes me at the moment. So
I popped for the new "heavier" spun Matco wheels, that are on back
order, for about three weeks now..
I have the 5 inch O'Brian mech brakes that I had set up with hand
brakes prior to changing to the Hydraulic ones. For what it is worth I
think the hand brakes are better. No much, but a hell of a lot less
hassle.
I tried to run the 800x6 tires with fairly low air pressure - 6-8 lbs,
and spun a tire, shearing off the air nipple. So I got some tire
screws and drilled 6 holes in the rims both sides and screwed the rims
to the tire. 6 per side. It worked fine.
I just went out and took an Azuza rim apart and stuck it in the Tundra
850x6 tire. If you push it so that the ribs that you can see on the
rim engage, it does snap in and you cannot "easily" turn it. I do not
trust it to not spin however, so if I use these rims again, I will
screw them to the tire. If I do decide to wait for Matco to finally
produce the rims that I have already paid for, I will also screw them
to the rim as well rather than take a chance on spinning them.
The attachments are of the 800x6 air tracks with 6 lbs of air and screws.
The other is of the "ribs" in an Azuza rim that is apparently designed
to keep the tire from spinning.
The screws are from JEGs and are designated for the purpose of
screwing the tire to the rim. Therefore they cost a lot more than a
regular sheet metal 3/4 in screw. The holes in the rim are small
enough for the screw to cut threads. Just in case you decide to go
with the regular screws.
You get to make your own decision.
Larry
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Bill Berle wro
te:
>
> So I called Desser tire Co. I asked the guy whether these tires should sp
in on the wheel. He said yes they do spin until you put air in them, and th
en you can't spin them. But this does NOT match my experience with putting
wheels and tires together on my Cessna 172. Then I said I was putting thes
e tires on Azusa wheels. He called me back 30 minutes later, said he went a
nd checked with someone in the engineering department, and that yes they di
d have problems with Azusa wheels because they were too "flimsy". I asked w
hat that had to do with their tire fitting on a 6 inch wheel. He said that
the Azusa wheels were "not built to spec" and that's why they had problems.
Put these tires on Matco wheels and there's no problem.
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of othe
rs.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Thomson <mojaveclimber(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery |
Bill
I read your discussion regarding Tundra tires. My thoughts are that light
aircraft tires need to be tubeless. The advantage is one can run low tire
pressure and not rip the valve stem out of the tube accelerating the tire
and wheel upon landing.
To my knowledge no tubeless system exist, and this is an opportunity for an
enterprising individual to design and market a tubeless system.
I fly a Kolb Mk3/ Rotax 582
Jim
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Larry Cottrell
wrote:
> I too have the new tundra tires waiting to be mounted, but what I am
> waiting on is a new set of rims from Matco. I currently have Matco
> hyd. brakes on the plane, and thought that I would keep my current
> 800X6 tires in reserve for a reason that escapes me at the moment. So
> I popped for the new "heavier" spun Matco wheels, that are on back
> order, for about three weeks now..
>
> I have the 5 inch O'Brian mech brakes that I had set up with hand
> brakes prior to changing to the Hydraulic ones. For what it is worth I
> think the hand brakes are better. No much, but a hell of a lot less
> hassle.
>
> I tried to run the 800x6 tires with fairly low air pressure - 6-8 lbs,
> and spun a tire, shearing off the air nipple. So I got some tire
> screws and drilled 6 holes in the rims both sides and screwed the rims
> to the tire. 6 per side. It worked fine.
>
> I just went out and took an Azuza rim apart and stuck it in the Tundra
> 850x6 tire. If you push it so that the ribs that you can see on the
> rim engage, it does snap in and you cannot "easily" turn it. I do not
> trust it to not spin however, so if I use these rims again, I will
> screw them to the tire. If I do decide to wait for Matco to finally
> produce the rims that I have already paid for, I will also screw them
> to the rim as well rather than take a chance on spinning them.
>
> The attachments are of the 800x6 air tracks with 6 lbs of air and screws.
>
> The other is of the "ribs" in an Azuza rim that is apparently designed
> to keep the tire from spinning.
>
> The screws are from JEGs and are designated for the purpose of
> screwing the tire to the rim. Therefore they cost a lot more than a
> regular sheet metal 3/4 in screw. The holes in the rim are small
> enough for the screw to cut threads. Just in case you decide to go
> with the regular screws.
>
> You get to make your own decision.
> Larry
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Bill Berle
> wrote:
> >
> > So I called Desser tire Co. I asked the guy whether these tires should
> spin on the wheel. He said yes they do spin until you put air in them, and
> then you can't spin them. But this does NOT match my experience with
> putting wheels and tires together on my Cessna 172. Then I said I was
> putting these tires on Azusa wheels. He called me back 30 minutes later,
> said he went and checked with someone in the engineering department, and
> that yes they did have problems with Azusa wheels because they were too
> "flimsy". I asked what that had to do with their tire fitting on a 6 inch
> wheel. He said that the Azusa wheels were "not built to spec" and that's
> why they had problems. Put these tires on Matco wheels and there's no
> problem.
>
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
> others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mojavjoe(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Charlie
My two cents again; I used white Gripper but any good acrylic primmer will do and
you can tint it toward your top coat. As I'm painting scenes on my wings and
fuselage I can't do the sanding described by Wiener Dog so I'm spraying on a
high gloss clear coat. The product I've settled on is Rustolem acrylic gloss
clear.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:03:16 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: covering supplier?
Thanks, Peter.
For you guys who've used latex, did you stick with the Glidden Gripper
grey primer as shown on the Wienerdog Aero site, or something else? I
can get the white primer (and other brands) locally, but will have to
order the grey.
No polishing for me; I'll be happy if the paint stays on & prevents UV
damage.
Thanks,
Charlie
On 4/12/2017 7:57 AM, phcpilot wrote:
>
> Here are my experiences with Latex which include a re-paint over an auto finish,
re-cover of a fuselage and painting a stits type covering.
>
> The re-paint was on a fuselage which had some cracking and chipping of an older
auto finish from firewall back past trailing edge of a Rans S7. I sanded and
filled the crack/chip areas with poly filla (Yup) then had the hardware store
do a colour match of some exterior latex paint. Actually these days it is called
water based acrylic. Years ago you couldn't sand latex due to its rubbery
nature. Not so these days.
> The result looked great with sort of a low gloss dope type finish. I have kept
in touch with the owner of the plane because even I was skeptical of how long
it would last. It has been many years now and he is still happy.
>
> In addition to acrylic paints, you should also keep clear water base urethane
in mind. I recovered my homebuilt 170 fuselage (steel tube/fabric) and used clear
urethane as first fill coat on the fabric and then put tapes on with it.
It was great to work with. Also used the green hardware store water based contact
cement for glue.
>
> Then sprayed on gloss acylic latex for finish coats. A buddy who is a long time
dope and fabric guy was amazed at how great the tape seams and fill looked.
At that time the glossiest acrylic was about as dull as a dope finish but with
a lot fewer coats.
>
> Next I've done a complete S7 with acrylic using a cheap primer fill coat followed
by gloss colour coats. High gloss is not an attribute of acrylic unless you
want to do all that buffing but with a product from Home Hardware called Rust
coat the finish is the best I've seen. Yes if you need a mirror finish be prepared
to work but for a great looking dope or better than polytone, little sanding
is required.
>
> For years I followed the suggestion from one site to use an airless sprayer.
This was mistake, they put out way too much paint even with the fine nozzles.
An inexpensive $50 HVLP gun is just fine and with way less likelihood of runs.
> Peter
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: covering supplier? |
Thanks Joe; that's good news. I'll just use a good quality primer & quit
worrying about it. Will a gallon take care of both wings (the multiple
coats required)?
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:06 AM, wrote:
> Charlie
>
> My two cents again; I used white Gripper but any good acrylic primmer
> will do and you can tint it toward your top coat. As I'm painting scenes
> on my wings and fuselage I can't do the sanding described by Wiener Dog so
> I'm spraying on a high gloss clear coat. The product I've settled on is
> Rustolem acrylic gloss clear.
>
> Joe
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
> *To: *"kolb-list"
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:03:16 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: Re: covering supplier?
>
>
> Thanks, Peter.
>
> For you guys who've used latex, did you stick with the Glidden Gripper
> grey primer as shown on the Wienerdog Aero site, or something else? I
> can get the white primer (and other brands) locally, but will have to
> order the grey.
>
> No polishing for me; I'll be happy if the paint stays on & prevents UV
> damage.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/12/2017 7:57 AM, phcpilot wrote:
> >
> > Here are my experiences with Latex which include a re-paint over an auto
> finish, re-cover of a fuselage and painting a stits type covering.
> >
> > The re-paint was on a fuselage which had some cracking and chipping of
> an older auto finish from firewall back past trailing edge of a Rans S7. I
> sanded and filled the crack/chip areas with poly filla (Yup) then had the
> hardware store do a colour match of some exterior latex paint. Actually
> these days it is called water based acrylic. Years ago you couldn't sand
> latex due to its rubbery nature. Not so these days.
> > The result looked great with sort of a low gloss dope type finish. I
> have kept in touch with the owner of the plane because even I was skeptical
> of how long it would last. It has been many years now and he is still happy.
> >
> > In addition to acrylic paints, you should also keep clear water base
> urethane in mind. I recovered my homebuilt 170 fuselage (steel tube/fabric)
> and used clear urethane as first fill coat on the fabric and then put tapes
> on with it. It was great to work with. Also used the green hardware store
> water based contact cement for glue.
> >
> > Then sprayed on gloss acylic latex for finish coats. A buddy who is a
> long time dope and fabric guy was amazed at how great the tape seams and
> fill looked. At that time the glossiest acrylic was about as dull as a dope
> finish but with a lot fewer coats.
> >
> > Next I've done a complete S7 with acrylic using a cheap primer fill coat
> followed by gloss colour coats. High gloss is not an attribute of acrylic
> unless you want to do all that buffing but with a product from Home
> Hardware called Rust coat the finish is the best I've seen. Yes if you need
> a mirror finish be prepared to work but for a great looking dope or better
> than polytone, little sanding is required.
> >
> > For years I followed the suggestion from one site to use an airless
> sprayer. This was mistake, they put out way too much paint even with the
> fine nozzles. An inexpensive $50 HVLP gun is just fine and with way less
> likelihood of runs.
> > Peter
> >
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus softwarebsp;
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> ====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original version) |
info request
John,
You mentioned leading edge bracing. This is all I see in the Twinstar I'm
restoring. There's nothing along the rest of the leading edge that
triangulates/ braces the leading edge.
Would you consider this adequate? It's easy to add now, with the cover
coming off.
Thanks,
Charlie
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when
driving out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier
experimentals I've owned. I've got a spring loaded center punch that I
ground to a flat nosed, straight shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets
after drilling the heads. I also use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
Charlie E/Kolbers:
I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels
removed. It takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel,
grind the end flat, hold with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer.
The rivet needs to be held to prevent spinning. I grind a V in the
end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled edges. Use that to push up
under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs
probably have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never
heard of tube sealing. 4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed.
That would worry me with an old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I
can't remember exactly what the fuselage looks like other that the
root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This I would make
sure is rust free on the inside.
I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation
pilot that shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs,
that he crashed in a wind storm. It was frightening when we started
cutting tubing. Most were rusted well beyond serviceability. Here
are photos of his Twinstar:
https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on-exhibit-at-state-museum
I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb
successfully. Yours may be an exception.
Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a
popular model and kits only produced a couple years.
Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely
important to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge
failure. This causes the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
(restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's
range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering
that it spent its entire past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and
to free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous
owner is a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells
me, and he says that it always cooled fine running it free-air with
some added ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on
doing a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper'
flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original version) |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
I'm not John, but if you scroll down to page 21 in the MKIII Yellow Book, you will
see what Kolb though to be a very useful reinforcement.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468375#468375
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Underwood <bob.pipercolt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original |
version)
Good Evening
I built 2 new wings for my MK111. I did not run the reinforcing tape betwee
n the=C2- ribs forward of the spar. Was I suppose to?. I did run the tape
between each rib about half way back of the spar.ThanksBob
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:23 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
I'm not John, but if you scroll down to page 21 in the MKIII Yellow Book, y
ou will see what Kolb though to be a very useful reinforcement.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468375#468375
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pipercolt" <bob.pipercolt(at)yahoo.com> |
I built 2 new wings for my MK111. I did not run reinforcing tape between each rib
forward of the spar. Was I suppose to? I did run the tape between each rib
about half way back from the spar.
Thanks
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468378#468378
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Finally spring time |
| From: | "west1m" <west1m(at)hotmail.com> |
It's finally warm enough to go outside for more than a fast run to my car.
We went over to New Richmond, WI to see if our ultralights were still there, first
time since November for me. There was some snow on the ground from the night
before but it was gone by the time we went out and bought a new tube for Randy's
BeLite and installed it. Once his tire was repaired and I had reinstalled
the battery and fuel tank on my Firefly it was warm enough for a short flight.
We had a short but fun flight around KRNH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d6BjRHi7WI
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468399#468399
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally spring time |
Nice solid video's.
Thanks,
Larry
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 4:19 PM, west1m wrote:
>
> It's finally warm enough to go outside for more than a fast run to my car.
> We went over to New Richmond, WI to see if our ultralights were still there,
first time since November for me. There was some snow on the ground from the night
before but it was gone by the time we went out and bought a new tube for
Randy's BeLite and installed it. Once his tire was repaired and I had reinstalled
the battery and fuel tank on my Firefly it was warm enough for a short flight.
We had a short but fun flight around KRNH.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d6BjRHi7WI
>
> --------
> West1m
> Hastings, MN
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468399#468399
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Del Vinal <mercecedes116(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finally spring time/vg article |
I have found that Sport Aviation mag,with the vg article in it. I
think I would have to mail it to someone with the knowledge of how to share
it easily. Any volunteers?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Baby's got some new shoes |
I finally got my new rims from Matco. They had been on back order for
almost a month, at least it seems that way. I had already ordered the
8.50 X 6 tundra tires and tubes.
Today dawned cold, 22 degrees but calm for a change. It eventually
warmed up to 44 degrees and I went to the hanger to start my tire
mounting. I drilled 6 holes in the rims to screw the tires to the
rims. The tires fit tight enough that it takes about 20 lbs of air to
make them pop out on the rims. That is unlike the Azusa rims that
depend on small flanges on the inside of the rims to keep them from
spinning. Since I want to run 5 lbs or less I am still not going to
take a chance on shearing off the valve stem, thus 6 screws per side.
Before I changed from the 8.00 X6 tires, I rolled the plane out and
flew all four corners of the compass with a vid camera to monitor my
airspeed. The speed averaged out to be about 66 MPH indicated. The
same on the ground speed depending on with or against the wind. There
was little wind, and my ASI and Ground speed are really close under
those conditions.
I drilled and cut threads in the rims, and then mounted the tires.
Since the 8.00 x 6 tires are on Matco rims as well, I just changed the
three bolts that held the bearings in the other tires and changed them
to the new tundras.
The wind was still holding its breath, so I rolled the plane back out
to check the difference. It seems to roll better with the tundra's on
it. I taxiied to the other end of the runway, and began my take off. I
cannot be sure, but the tires with 5 lbs of air, seemed to bounce a
bit on take off, but I could not be sure. When I pulled back on the
stick it flew quickly. I tend to push the stick forward to pick up
speed, so it could have been trying to fly, while I was pushing it
back on the ground. I will be doing a lot more testing when the
weather again cooperates. My take off seemed to be quite a bit shorter
than normal.
In essence there was no indication that my air speed suffered at all.
It was quite turbulent so I only made a circuit and half. While I
seemed to bounce a bit on take off, I bounced not at all on landing.
The tires at 5 lbs are really nice. They appear to not need balancing,
unlike the 8.00X6's.
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> |
| Subject: | Baby's got some new shoes |
Larry,
Are you using tubes in these tires? If so, how do you keep the screws from puncturing
the tubes?
Just curious as I am happy with my Black Max brakes, tubeless tires and aluminum
wheels on my Firefly. Apples and oranges, I know....
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:47 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Baby's got some new shoes
I finally got my new rims from Matco. They had been on back order for almost a
month, at least it seems that way. I had already ordered the
8.50 X 6 tundra tires and tubes.
Today dawned cold, 22 degrees but calm for a change. It eventually warmed up to
44 degrees and I went to the hanger to start my tire mounting. I drilled 6 holes
in the rims to screw the tires to the rims. The tires fit tight enough that
it takes about 20 lbs of air to make them pop out on the rims. That is unlike
the Azusa rims that depend on small flanges on the inside of the rims to keep
them from spinning. Since I want to run 5 lbs or less I am still not going to
take a chance on shearing off the valve stem, thus 6 screws per side.
Before I changed from the 8.00 X6 tires, I rolled the plane out and flew all four
corners of the compass with a vid camera to monitor my airspeed. The speed
averaged out to be about 66 MPH indicated. The same on the ground speed depending
on with or against the wind. There was little wind, and my ASI and Ground
speed are really close under those conditions.
I drilled and cut threads in the rims, and then mounted the tires.
Since the 8.00 x 6 tires are on Matco rims as well, I just changed the three bolts
that held the bearings in the other tires and changed them to the new tundras.
The wind was still holding its breath, so I rolled the plane back out to check
the difference. It seems to roll better with the tundra's on it. I taxiied to
the other end of the runway, and began my take off. I cannot be sure, but the
tires with 5 lbs of air, seemed to bounce a bit on take off, but I could not be
sure. When I pulled back on the stick it flew quickly. I tend to push the stick
forward to pick up speed, so it could have been trying to fly, while I was
pushing it back on the ground. I will be doing a lot more testing when the weather
again cooperates. My take off seemed to be quite a bit shorter than normal.
In essence there was no indication that my air speed suffered at all.
It was quite turbulent so I only made a circuit and half. While I seemed to bounce
a bit on take off, I bounced not at all on landing.
The tires at 5 lbs are really nice. They appear to not need balancing, unlike the
8.00X6's.
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before
sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
You wrote: Are you using tubes in these tires? If so, how do you
keep the screws from puncturing the tubes?
Yes these are tube type tires. The screws don't go all the way through
the inside rim of the tire. The screws are 3/4, so I put a washer on
them and they are just right for length that way.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Internet Connectivity Upgrades April 17-18 2017 |
Dear Matronics Email List an/or Forum User,
The Matronics Internet connectivity will be upgraded on April 17 through April
18, 2017. During the upgrade connections to the Matronics and AeroElectric web
servers may be unavailable. Additionally, Matronics Email List email will not
be redistributed.
Internet Connectivity bandwidth will be significantly increased by a factor of
7X for downloads and 50X for uploads, which represents a significant increase
in performance. Reliability should also increase in terms.
I will send out a follow up message when the upgrade has been completed.
Best Regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Baby has new shoes |
https://vimeo.com/213383013 password - owyheeflyer
A short video with the new tires.
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norman <norm2mac(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Mk3 C Clevis Pins |
Hi again, could someone tell me the correct clevis pin sizes (ms20392
- xxxx), for the Kolb Twinstar Mk3 C please.
The current pins fitted bear no resemblance to the "picking list" I
have, which gives, (I presume I've got the correct ones), Aileron &
flaps - AN394-25 (3C25); wing strut top - AN395-17 (4C17); wing strut
at fuselage - AN395-29 (4C29); main wing - AN395-41 (4C41); elevator
bottom wires (not a through bolt but a mount on each side), AN393-17 (2C17).
The only pin I could find in "The Yellow Book" was the aileron, AN394-29.
The pins currently fitted are all 3C (1/4") instead of 5/16".
I'm a new owner and I want to change all the clevis pins.
Any help will be appreciated.
Norman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norman <norm2mac(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Mk3 C Clevis Pins |
Hi again, could someone tell me the correct clevis pin sizes (ms20392
- xxxx), for the Kolb Twinstar Mk3 C please.
The current pins fitted bear no resemblance to the "picking list" I
have, which gives, (I presume I've got the correct ones), Aileron &
flaps - AN394-25 (3C25); wing strut top - AN395-17 (4C17); wing strut
at fuselage - AN395-29 (4C29); main wing - AN395-41 (4C41); elevator
bottom wires (not a through bolt but a mount on each side), AN393-17 (2C17).
The only pin I could find in "The Yellow Book" was the aileron, AN394-29.
The pins currently fitted are all 3C (1/4") instead of 5/16".
I'm a new owner and I want to change all the clevis pins.
Any help will be appreciated.
Norman
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Break-away Tail Wheel |
| From: | "KJ4CTZ" <Kj4ctz(at)gmail.com> |
Gentlemen,
I bought a new breakaway tail wheel from Kolb at Sun N Fun this year. Attempting
to replace my original wheel, It appears like the original is JB Welded to the
solid aluminum tail rod.
What is the recommended procedure for removing the original tail wheel assembly?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468520#468520
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel |
If it's aluminum, heat from a propane torch will break the bond. A wet rag wrapped
around the aluminum will keep the heat from traveling up to the tail skeg.
Maybe try to twist a bit while heating, so you know when it lets go. It
shouldn't take much heat. Or, as suggested earlier this week, cut it off to shorten
it a bit.
Bill Sullivan
Gentlemen,
I bought a new breakaway tail wheel
from Kolb at Sun N Fun this year. Attempting to replace my
original wheel, It appears like the original is JB Welded to
the solid aluminum tail rod.
What is the recommended procedure for
removing the original tail wheel assembly?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mk3 C Clevis Pins |
Norman wrote "Hi again, could someone tell me the correct clevis pin
sizes (ms20392
- xxxx), for the Kolb Twinstar Mk3 C please"
My plans says
an395-17 for lift strut attach point to wing
An 395-29 for lift strut to cage
An394 - 29 flap arm attach and aileron linkage
Forward wing attachment an395-45
Wing attach at universal joint are 5/16 bolts
Note: AN 39 indicates the style the "5" in an395 is the diameter in
16ths the "dash number# is the length.
All clevis pins can be replaced with bolts and locknuts if you don't fold
the wings.
Disclaimer....... Some of the clevis pins as noted by the plans were very
slightly too short. In my humble opinion. If it were me,,, I would
measure the distance to be spanned add the thickness of the washers you
want to use. Plus a tiny bit so it is not to hard to get together.
Boyd Young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mk3 C Clevis Pins |
Norman- call Aircraft Spruce and get their catalog. Gull of information about
sizes, hardness, and strange stuff. Great reference book.
Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/16/17, Norman wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 C Clevis Pins
To: "Kolb List Posting"
Date: Sunday, April 16, 2017, 7:54 AM
Hi again, could someone tell me the
correct clevis pin sizes (ms20392
- xxxx), for the Kolb Twinstar Mk3 C
please.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel |
A propane torch should do the trick. Just heat it lightly all the way around. It
will break loose.Keep wet cloth with around to keep to much heat from transferring
to the tail post.
Have a great day!
> On Apr 16, 2017, at 9:52 AM, KJ4CTZ wrote:
>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I bought a new breakaway tail wheel from Kolb at Sun N Fun this year. Attempting
to replace my original wheel, It appears like the original is JB Welded to
the solid aluminum tail rod.
>
> What is the recommended procedure for removing the original tail wheel assembly?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468520#468520
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel |
| From: | "KJ4CTZ" <Kj4ctz(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks guys,
I will try mild heat first. If no success I will cut off and put new assembly on.
Should it also be JB Welded back on? I assume so but open to suggestions.
This forum is great and I appreciate everyone's comments.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468526#468526
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel |
I re-mounted my tail wheel on a very early Firestar because it was crooked.
I had the fiberglass rod. I used a 1/4" bolt through it. I was a truck equipment
mechanic, so I have a tendency to overdo things a bit.
Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/16/17, KJ4CTZ wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, April 16, 2017, 11:57 AM
Thanks guys,
I will try mild heat first. If no
success I will cut off and put new assembly on.
Should it also be JB Welded back on? I
assume so but open to suggestions.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Fwd: another video and flight |
------
Subject: another video and flight
The weather was still nice this morning so I put on a lot of clothes
and took off.
video- https://vimeo.com/213440748 password owyheeflyer
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original version) |
info request
Actually, the two 5/16" tubes are fabric braces to keep the fabric from
pulling the aluminum rib nose inward. There is no lateral bracing of
the leading edge tube except a long 5/16 alum tube that is in
compression.
The bow tip doesn't do much for lateral bracing of the leading edge
tube. That's all you have to keep the rib noses in column. Once they
get pulled out of column, they will probably fail.
The small 5/16 tubes are flattened, bent, and riveted. They tend to
break at this point from vibration with not a whole lot of time on them.
I used two 1/2" alum tubes, one inboard and one outboard, diagonally
working with each other, attached to the leading edge tube and the main
spare. Wish I had a photo of my wing handy. If I can find one I will
share it.
I may be overly cautious, but it makes me feel more comfortable,
especially when I get caught in extremely rough air.
Sorry for the delay in responding. Just got home from a 4 day trip.
If you need more info, call me. 334-567-6280
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 11:05 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original
version) info request
John,
You mentioned leading edge bracing. This is all I see in the Twinstar
I'm restoring. There's nothing along the rest of the leading edge that
triangulates/ braces the leading edge.
Would you consider this adequate? It's easy to add now, with the cover
coming off.
Thanks,
Charlie
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when
driving out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier
experimentals I've owned. I've got a spring loaded center punch that I
ground to a flat nosed, straight shaft, & use it to punch out driven
rivets after drilling the heads. I also use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
Charlie E/Kolbers:
I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I
didn't.
Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed.
It takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end
flat, hold with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet
needs to be held to prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack
saw blade with sharp beveled edges. Use that to push up under the rivet
to lock it in place while drilling.
4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs
probably have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never
heard of tube sealing. 4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That
would worry me with an old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't
remember exactly what the fuselage looks like other that the root tube
that seats and stuff are attached to. This I would make sure is rust
free on the inside.
I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation
pilot that shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that
he crashed in a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting
tubing. Most were rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos
of his Twinstar:
https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on
-exhibit-at-state-museum
I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb
successfully. Yours may be an exception.
Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a
popular model and kits only produced a couple years.
Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely
important to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge
failure. This causes the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never
flew.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
(restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that
it spent its entire past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to
free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is
a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he
says that it always cooled fine running it free-air with some added
ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original |
version)
In addition to modifying and additional lateral bracing of the wing's
leading edge, I also reinforced my ribs. Makes for an extremely stiff wing.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:18 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original
version)
-->
I'm not John, but if you scroll down to page 21 in the MKIII Yellow Book,
you will see what Kolb though to be a very useful reinforcement.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468375#468375
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: another video and flight |
I like the video. Especially the short approach to the landing..
observation way to many dreaded 3 mile finals.
Boyd
On Apr 16, 2017 4:02 PM, "Larry Cottrell" wrote:
>
> ------
> Subject: another video and flight
>
>
> The weather was still nice this morning so I put on a lot of clothes
> and took off.
>
> video- https://vimeo.com/213440748 password owyheeflyer
>
>
> Larry
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
> others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.
>
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
> others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Baby's got some new shoes |
Sounds good.
Reckon sitting more nose high helped with your takeoff?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:47 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Baby's got some new shoes
I finally got my new rims from Matco. They had been on back order for almost a
month, at least it seems that way. I had already ordered the
8.50 X 6 tundra tires and tubes.
Today dawned cold, 22 degrees but calm for a change. It eventually warmed up to
44 degrees and I went to the hanger to start my tire mounting. I drilled 6 holes
in the rims to screw the tires to the rims. The tires fit tight enough that
it takes about 20 lbs of air to make them pop out on the rims. That is unlike
the Azusa rims that depend on small flanges on the inside of the rims to keep
them from spinning. Since I want to run 5 lbs or less I am still not going to
take a chance on shearing off the valve stem, thus 6 screws per side.
Before I changed from the 8.00 X6 tires, I rolled the plane out and flew all four
corners of the compass with a vid camera to monitor my airspeed. The speed
averaged out to be about 66 MPH indicated. The same on the ground speed depending
on with or against the wind. There was little wind, and my ASI and Ground
speed are really close under those conditions.
I drilled and cut threads in the rims, and then mounted the tires.
Since the 8.00 x 6 tires are on Matco rims as well, I just changed the three bolts
that held the bearings in the other tires and changed them to the new tundras.
The wind was still holding its breath, so I rolled the plane back out to check
the difference. It seems to roll better with the tundra's on it. I taxiied to
the other end of the runway, and began my take off. I cannot be sure, but the
tires with 5 lbs of air, seemed to bounce a bit on take off, but I could not be
sure. When I pulled back on the stick it flew quickly. I tend to push the stick
forward to pick up speed, so it could have been trying to fly, while I was
pushing it back on the ground. I will be doing a lot more testing when the weather
again cooperates. My take off seemed to be quite a bit shorter than normal.
In essence there was no indication that my air speed suffered at all.
It was quite turbulent so I only made a circuit and half. While I seemed to bounce
a bit on take off, I bounced not at all on landing.
The tires at 5 lbs are really nice. They appear to not need balancing, unlike the
8.00X6's.
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before
sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original version) |
info request
I left out the fact that the fabric braces are on the nose of the
inboard rib. Aft is 4130 and nose is alum tubing.
john h
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar
(original version) info request
Actually, the two 5/16" tubes are fabric braces to keep the fabric from
pulling the aluminum rib nose inward. There is no lateral bracing of
the leading edge tube except a long 5/16 alum tube that is in
compression.
The bow tip doesn't do much for lateral bracing of the leading edge
tube. That's all you have to keep the rib noses in column. Once they
get pulled out of column, they will probably fail.
The small 5/16 tubes are flattened, bent, and riveted. They tend to
break at this point from vibration with not a whole lot of time on them.
I used two 1/2" alum tubes, one inboard and one outboard, diagonally
working with each other, attached to the leading edge tube and the main
spare. Wish I had a photo of my wing handy. If I can find one I will
share it.
I may be overly cautious, but it makes me feel more comfortable,
especially when I get caught in extremely rough air.
Sorry for the delay in responding. Just got home from a 4 day trip.
If you need more info, call me. 334-567-6280
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 11:05 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original
version) info request
John,
You mentioned leading edge bracing. This is all I see in the Twinstar
I'm restoring. There's nothing along the rest of the leading edge that
triangulates/ braces the leading edge.
Would you consider this adequate? It's easy to add now, with the cover
coming off.
Thanks,
Charlie
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when
driving out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier
experimentals I've owned. I've got a spring loaded center punch that I
ground to a flat nosed, straight shaft, & use it to punch out driven
rivets after drilling the heads. I also use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
Charlie E/Kolbers:
I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I
didn't.
Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed.
It takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end
flat, hold with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet
needs to be held to prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack
saw blade with sharp beveled edges. Use that to push up under the rivet
to lock it in place while drilling.
4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs
probably have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never
heard of tube sealing. 4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That
would worry me with an old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't
remember exactly what the fuselage looks like other that the root tube
that seats and stuff are attached to. This I would make sure is rust
free on the inside.
I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation
pilot that shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that
he crashed in a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting
tubing. Most were rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos
of his Twinstar:
https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on
-exhibit-at-state-museum
I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb
successfully. Yours may be an exception.
Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a
popular model and kits only produced a couple years.
Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely
important to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge
failure. This causes the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never
flew.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
(restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that
it spent its entire past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to
free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is
a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he
says that it always cooled fine running it free-air with some added
ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:27 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Sounds good.
>
> Reckon sitting more nose high helped with your takeoff?
I think that it did, seems a lot shorter. I just went back and looked
at the video and as near as I can tell I lifted off at 34 MPH
indicated. Stall is 29-30 . With the taller tires it is sitting at the
angle that it is when it actually stalls, so it would appear to be at
optimum attitude.
I am experiencing some bouncing at the same time that it wants to fly.
Not sure if it is dribbling or, starting to bounce. Need more take
off's to tell. Actually an observer would be just the thing.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
| From: | Russ Kinne <russk50(at)gmail.com> |
Hey, Larry, you got an interesting problem. Id be gad to observe & photograph your
TOs
Just pay my travel from Maine!
Fair winds,
Russ K
> On Apr 16, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:27 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> Sounds good.
>>
>> Reckon sitting more nose high helped with your takeoff?
>
>
> I think that it did, seems a lot shorter. I just went back and looked
> at the video and as near as I can tell I lifted off at 34 MPH
> indicated. Stall is 29-30 . With the taller tires it is sitting at the
> angle that it is when it actually stalls, so it would appear to be at
> optimum attitude.
>
> I am experiencing some bouncing at the same time that it wants to fly.
> Not sure if it is dribbling or, starting to bounce. Need more take
> off's to tell. Actually an observer would be just the thing.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
Hey, Larry, you got an interesting problem. Id be gad to observe &
photograph your TOs
Just pay my travel from Maine!
Fair winds,
Russ K
Sounds good, but after buying all those rims, tires and tubes, my
slush fund is a bit under the weather. However if you toss your stuff
in your plane and start out now, you could be here in a week or two.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ Kinne <russk50(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
Would love to fly out to you but I=99m plane-less at the mo.
Have made 6 coast-coast trips in Cessnas, GREAT fun &
would love to do another.
I=99ll work on the Lotto
Good luck,
Russ
> On Apr 16, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Larry Cottrell
wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey, Larry, you got an interesting problem. I=99d be gad to
observe &
> photograph your TO=99s
> Just pay my travel from Maine!
> Fair winds,
> Russ K
>
> Sounds good, but after buying all those rims, tires and tubes, my
> slush fund is a bit under the weather. However if you toss your stuff
> in your plane and start out now, you could be here in a week or two.
> Larry
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Baby's got some new shoes |
Maybe you are trying to make the airplane fly too soon. Keep the nose down until
you get well stall, then pull the nose up.
It gets light, but not light enough to fly. 5 psi in big tires have a lot of reflex.
Just the thoughts of a guy that has never flown anything bigger than an 8x6, which
seemed huge for a short time after upsizing from 6x6. Now they are just regular
tires.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Baby's got some new shoes
-->
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:27 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Sounds good.
>
> Reckon sitting more nose high helped with your takeoff?
I think that it did, seems a lot shorter. I just went back and looked at the video
and as near as I can tell I lifted off at 34 MPH indicated. Stall is 29-30
. With the taller tires it is sitting at the angle that it is when it actually
stalls, so it would appear to be at optimum attitude.
I am experiencing some bouncing at the same time that it wants to fly.
Not sure if it is dribbling or, starting to bounce. Need more take off's to tell.
Actually an observer would be just the thing.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original version) |
info request
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
You're right about the little tubes cracking. One of my wing leading
edge tubes had some corrosion & a big crack about half way around it
near the root rib. After drilling it free, the diagonal tube tying it to
the main spar showed cracks in the bends on both ends. I'll be adding
new diagonals, either of larger aluminum, or some 4130 tubes the same
size. (Easier to form safely, by using a little heat.)
Thanks for the addtl info. You may well get a call from me before this
project is finished. :-)
Charlie
On 4/16/2017 5:35 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Actually, the two 5/16" tubes are fabric braces to keep the fabric
> from pulling the aluminum rib nose inward. There is no lateral
> bracing of the leading edge tube except a long 5/16 alum tube that is
> in compression.
>
> The bow tip doesn't do much for lateral bracing of the leading edge
> tube. That's all you have to keep the rib noses in column. Once they
> get pulled out of column, they will probably fail.
>
> The small 5/16 tubes are flattened, bent, and riveted. They tend to
> break at this point from vibration with not a whole lot of time on them.
>
> I used two 1/2" alum tubes, one inboard and one outboard, diagonally
> working with each other, attached to the leading edge tube and the
> main spare. Wish I had a photo of my wing handy. If I can find one I
> will share it.
>
> I may be overly cautious, but it makes me feel more comfortable,
> especially when I get caught in extremely rough air.
>
> Sorry for the delay in responding. Just got home from a 4 day trip.
>
> If you need more info, call me. 334-567-6280
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
> *From:*owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Charlie
> England
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 11:05 AM
> *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar
> (original version) info request
>
> John,
>
> You mentioned leading edge bracing. This is all I see in the Twinstar
> I'm restoring. There's nothing along the rest of the leading edge that
> triangulates/ braces the leading edge.
>
> Would you consider this adequate? It's easy to add now, with the cover
> coming off.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when
> driving out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier
> experimentals I've owned. I've got a spring loaded center punch that I
> ground to a flat nosed, straight shaft, & use it to punch out driven
> rivets after drilling the heads. I also use small, flush cutting
> 'dykes' (diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>
> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>
> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed.
It takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held
to prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>
> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube
sealing. 4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with
an old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to.
This I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>
> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot
that shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed
in a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were
rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>
> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>
> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>
> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular
model and kits only produced a couple years.
>
> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This
causes the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>
> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never
flew.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
>
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
>
> To:kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
>
> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>
> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration
project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
>
> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent
its entire past life in central FL.
>
> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close
friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>
> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
>
> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins
or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the
tailspring stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on
at least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the
early models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>
> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove
the ailerons, etc for recovering?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge bracing; was: Kolb Twinstar (original |
version)
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, Richard; I'll look at doing that mod, as well.
BTW, my plans just mention '1/8 x 1/8 pop rivets'. What's the rivet of
choice? Just a typical 18-8 stainless, or 304 stainless? the 316
stainless are pricey enough that enough to do the whole plane might
cost as much as the whole kit. :-)
Charlie
On 4/13/2017 9:17 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> I'm not John, but if you scroll down to page 21 in the MKIII Yellow Book, you
will see what Kolb though to be a very useful reinforcement.
> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Baby's got some new shoes |
I'm tired and can't type.
I meant to say "keep the nose down until you get well "above" stall."
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Baby's got some new shoes
Maybe you are trying to make the airplane fly too soon. Keep the nose down until
you get well stall, then pull the nose up.
It gets light, but not light enough to fly. 5 psi in big tires have a lot of reflex.
Just the thoughts of a guy that has never flown anything bigger than an 8x6, which
seemed huge for a short time after upsizing from 6x6. Now they are just regular
tires.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Baby's got some new shoes
-->
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:27 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Sounds good.
>
> Reckon sitting more nose high helped with your takeoff?
I think that it did, seems a lot shorter. I just went back and looked at the video
and as near as I can tell I lifted off at 34 MPH indicated. Stall is 29-30
. With the taller tires it is sitting at the angle that it is when it actually
stalls, so it would appear to be at optimum attitude.
I am experiencing some bouncing at the same time that it wants to fly.
Not sure if it is dribbling or, starting to bounce. Need more take off's to tell.
Actually an observer would be just the thing.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
Maybe you are trying to make the airplane fly too soon. Keep the nose
down until you get well stall, then pull the nose up.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually it was the "bouncing" that prompted me to pull it up.
Something similar happened on the first take off, so I was prepared
for it. Just don't know what causes it. I am wondering if a bit more
air might clear it up. The first time I can fly, I will set another
camera up to film the take off as it happens from in front. It is
nothing more than a curious occurrence.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel |
Heat will definitely break JB weld loose. I actually just replaced the tailw
heel on my Firestar 1 with the new Kolb breakaway unit. I had drill out the f
iberglass tail strut which was a real pain, but JB had failed at tailwheel a
ssembly. So I installed a new T7075 tail strut. I just locked it into lower
vertical stabilizer with a single bolt at both ends. Here's a couple of pic
tures.
I did coat the inside of both end with a liberal amount of white silicon to s
eal out moisture.
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
Mesick, MI
Have a great day!
> On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:57 AM, KJ4CTZ wrote:
>
>
> Thanks guys,
>
> I will try mild heat first. If no success I will cut off and put new assem
bly on.
>
> Should it also be JB Welded back on? I assume so but open to suggestions.
>
> This forum is great and I appreciate everyone's comments.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468526#468526
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Baby's got some new shoes |
Wow ! Now I'm suffering from "Tire Envy" ! The airplane looks mighty serious with
those tires.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/16/17, Larry Cottrell wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Baby's got some new shoes
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com"
Date: Sunday, April 16, 2017, 6:15 PM
Cottrell
"John Hauck"
Maybe you are trying to make the
airplane fly too soon. Keep the nose
down until you get well stall, then
pull the nose up.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually it was the "bouncing" that
prompted me to pull it up.
Something similar happened on the first
take off, so I was prepared
for it. Just don't know what causes it.
I am wondering if a bit more
air might clear it up. The first time I
can fly, I will set another
camera up to film the take off as it
happens from in front. It is
nothing more than a curious
occurrence.
Larry
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
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Email List Wiki!
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support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Finally spring time/vg article |
| From: | "Radegast" <jwaynes(at)gmail.com> |
Here is a PDF of the VG vortex generator article.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468572#468572
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_13498_181.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Internet Connectivity Upgrades April 17-18 2017 |
Matt
I'm a retired network engineer. I know what it takes to do what you do.
Super job!
Thanks
Rick Neilsen
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Matt Dralle wrote:
>
>
> Dear Matronics Email List an/or Forum User,
>
> The Matronics Internet connectivity will be upgraded on April 17 through
> April 18, 2017. During the upgrade connections to the Matronics and
> AeroElectric web servers may be unavailable. Additionally, Matronics Email
> List email will not be redistributed.
>
> Internet Connectivity bandwidth will be significantly increased by a
> factor of 7X for downloads and 50X for uploads, which represents a
> significant increase in performance. Reliability should also increase in
> terms.
>
> I will send out a follow up message when the upgrade has been completed.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List and Forum Admin.
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bearden" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery |
> " Is there a known, good, light weight, off-road alternative tire"
I am a total nube and know nuthin, however I read somewhere that a fella
went to a GA shop and asked for old tires. He found some large ones that
were not safe for GA but worked fine for light weight ultralights.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bearden" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | RE: On MZ201/M202 |
> I just thought that I'd start a thread concerning the MZ201 and MZ202
engines.
I am interested in this topic. I have a FS I that needs recovering. I have a
low hours 503 that came with it but I play with the idea of using my new-new
MZ202 on it. I have no idea how that would work out. I am a total nube.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: On MZ201/M202 |
George- This is Jack Hart's "Firefly Slide Show". Probably the best info on taking
off weight and adapting engines. I don't know why Jack hasn't been posting
on the List lately, but Bookmark this site and read all of it. Very clear reading.
He shows info on an MZ34, so a lot of mounting ideas may be similar. No
matter what, it is a very informative site.
http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html
Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/18/17, George Bearden wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: RE: On MZ201/M202
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 6:11 AM
Bearden"
> I just thought that I'd start a
thread concerning the MZ201 and MZ202
engines.
I am interested in this topic. I have a
FS I that needs recovering. I have a
low hours 503 that came with it but I
play with the idea of using my new-new
MZ202 on it. I have no idea how that
would work out. I am a total nube.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery |
Are you the same George "Chip" Bearden that flew contest sailplanes?
Bill Berle (Contest # VB back in a previous century)
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/18/17, George Bearden wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ANOTHER Wheel and Tire Mystery
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 2:25 AM
Bearden"
> " Is there a known, good, light
weight, off-road alternative tire"
I am a total nube and know nuthin,
however I read somewhere that a fella
went to a GA shop and asked for old
tires. He found some large ones that
were not safe for GA but worked fine
for light weight ultralights.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | spiral jetty video |
this is a remake of a video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
with a different video editor that will go to full screen. it is 5 min
long, enjoy
https://vimeo.com/213943022
boyd young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
Private video, need password.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
To: "Kolb List"
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
this is a remake of a
video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
with a different video editor that will go to full screen.
it is 5 min long, enjoy
https://vimeo.com/213943022
boyd young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
My biggest apologies the pass word is
beekeeper
Boyd Young
PS I've made bigger mistakes
On Apr 20, 2017 12:24 AM, "Bill Berle" wrote:
>
> Private video, need password.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
> To: "Kolb List"
> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>
> this is a remake of a
> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
> with a different video editor that will go to full screen.
> it is 5 min long, enjoy
> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>
> boyd young
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
Ok all in one email
https://vimeo.com/213943022
Password beekeeper
boyd young
On Apr 20, 2017 12:24 AM, "Bill Berle" wrote:
>
> Private video, need password.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
> To: "Kolb List"
> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>
> this is a remake of a
> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
> with a different video editor that will go to full screen.
> it is 5 min long, enjoy
> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>
> boyd young
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Kulp <undoctor(at)rcn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
Hey Boyd, Larry's password doesn't work. Help me out, I want to watch it.
Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com
On April 19, 2017 11:38:11 PM B Young wrote:
> this is a remake of a video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
> with a different video editor that will go to full screen. it is 5 min
> long, enjoy
>
> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>
> boyd young
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Kulp <undoctor(at)rcn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
Thanks!!
Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com
On April 20, 2017 10:18:21 AM B Young wrote:
> Ok all in one email
>
> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>
> Password beekeeper
>
> boyd young
>
> On Apr 20, 2017 12:24 AM, "Bill Berle" wrote:
>
>>
>> Private video, need password.
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
>> for-profit entities
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>> To: "Kolb List"
>> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>>
>> this is a remake of a
>> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
>> with a different video editor that will go to full screen.
>> it is 5 min long, enjoy
>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>>
>> boyd young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
Mistakes???? I thought that I held the worldwide patent and ownership of the entire
concept!
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 4/20/17, B Young wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
To: "Kolb List"
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017, 7:14 AM
Ok all in one email
https://vimeo.com/213943022
Password beekeeper
boyd young
On Apr 20, 2017 12:24
AM, "Bill Berle"
wrote:
Bill Berle
Private video, need password.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
------------------------------ --------------
On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young
wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
To: "Kolb List"
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
this is a remake of a
video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
with a different video editor that will go to full
screen.
it is 5 min long, enjoy
https://vimeo.com/213943022
boyd young
==== ============================== =
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Kolb-List
==== ============================== =
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==== ============================== =
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==== ============================== =
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
==== ============================== =
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Air start cart...MA-1A |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Off subject...but first ..heck of a deal in Salton California...Kolb
Firestar 1 with trailer and wrecked Firestar...5k for all... Just too
far away for me...Came on Barnstormers yesterday...likely gone by now..!
off Subject....for you Viet Nam guys and some others....
Anyone familiar with the Air Start Cart ...model MA-1A . pn 370400
I have one by trade...hasn't been run in 7 or so years...good oil
supply...will add jet A and two 12 volt batteries later today...Not a
keeper...will advertise it on Barnstormers and possibly EBAY... Turbine
is an Garrett/Air Research GTCE85-15-1. Sn 36P-355 PN 376490...
I heard it run back in 2010...there bouts...Sitting in the dry
....til I tarped it last fall ... Any info appreciated...Herb
On 04/20/2017 11:47 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> Mistakes???? I thought that I held the worldwide patent and ownership of the
entire concept!
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 4/20/17, B Young wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
> To: "Kolb List"
> Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017, 7:14 AM
>
> Ok all in one email
>
> https://vimeo.com/213943022
> Password beekeeper
>
> boyd young
>
> On Apr 20, 2017 12:24
> AM, "Bill Berle"
> wrote:
> Bill Berle
>
>
>
> Private video, need password.
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
> ------------------------------ --------------
>
> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>
> To: "Kolb List"
>
> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>
>
>
> this is a remake of a
>
> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
>
> with a different video editor that will go to full
> screen.
>
> it is 5 min long, enjoy
>
> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>
>
>
> boyd young
>
>
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
> contribution
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Air start cart...MA-1A |
Yeah, if it's what I think you're talking about? We used them for ground power
and air starting of the engines (J-79)on the F-4 Phantoms when I was Crew Chief
in U.S. Air Force. Engine oil should be MIL-L-7808 as I recall. Fuel was JP4.
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Have a great day!
> On Apr 21, 2017, at 11:46 AM, Hoppy wrote:
>
>
> Off subject...but first ..heck of a deal in Salton California...Kolb Firestar
1 with trailer and wrecked Firestar...5k for all... Just too far away for me...Came
on Barnstormers yesterday...likely gone by now..!
>
> off Subject....for you Viet Nam guys and some others....
>
> Anyone familiar with the Air Start Cart ...model MA-1A . pn 370400
>
> I have one by trade...hasn't been run in 7 or so years...good oil supply...will
add jet A and two 12 volt batteries later today...Not a keeper...will advertise
it on Barnstormers and possibly EBAY... Turbine is an Garrett/Air Research
GTCE85-15-1. Sn 36P-355 PN 376490...
>
> I heard it run back in 2010...there bouts...Sitting in the dry ....til I tarped
it last fall ... Any info appreciated...Herb
>
>
>> On 04/20/2017 11:47 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>
>> Mistakes???? I thought that I held the worldwide patent and ownership of the
entire concept!
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Thu, 4/20/17, B Young wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>> To: "Kolb List"
>> Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017, 7:14 AM
>> Ok all in one email
>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>> Password beekeeper
>> boyd young
>> On Apr 20, 2017 12:24
>> AM, "Bill Berle"
>> wrote:
>> Bill Berle
>> Private video, need password.
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net
>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>> entities
>> ------------------------------ --------------
>> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young
>> wrote:
>> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>> To: "Kolb List"
>> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>> this is a remake of a
>> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
>> with a different video editor that will go to full
>> screen.
>> it is 5 min long, enjoy
>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>> boyd young
>> ==== ============================== =
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?Kolb-List
>> ==== ============================== =
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==== ============================== =
>> WIKI -
>> errer"
>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==== ============================== =
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> contribution
>> ==== ============================== =
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Air start cart...MA-1A |
| From: | Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> |
Don't guess the list monsters will scream about one picture...:-) Herb
On 04/21/2017 12:37 PM, George Helton wrote:
>
> Yeah, if it's what I think you're talking about? We used them for ground power
and air starting of the engines (J-79)on the F-4 Phantoms when I was Crew Chief
in U.S. Air Force. Engine oil should be MIL-L-7808 as I recall. Fuel was JP4.
>
> George H.
> Firestar 1, #FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
>
> Have a great day!
>
>> On Apr 21, 2017, at 11:46 AM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
>>
>> Off subject...but first ..heck of a deal in Salton California...Kolb Firestar
1 with trailer and wrecked Firestar...5k for all... Just too far away for me...Came
on Barnstormers yesterday...likely gone by now..!
>>
>> off Subject....for you Viet Nam guys and some others....
>>
>> Anyone familiar with the Air Start Cart ...model MA-1A . pn 370400
>>
>> I have one by trade...hasn't been run in 7 or so years...good oil supply...will
add jet A and two 12 volt batteries later today...Not a keeper...will advertise
it on Barnstormers and possibly EBAY... Turbine is an Garrett/Air Research
GTCE85-15-1. Sn 36P-355 PN 376490...
>>
>> I heard it run back in 2010...there bouts...Sitting in the dry ....til I tarped
it last fall ... Any info appreciated...Herb
>>
>>
>>> On 04/20/2017 11:47 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>>
>>> Mistakes???? I thought that I held the worldwide patent and ownership of the
entire concept!
>>>
>>> Bill Berle
>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> On Thu, 4/20/17, B Young wrote:
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>>> To: "Kolb List"
>>> Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017, 7:14 AM
>>> Ok all in one email
>>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>>> Password beekeeper
>>> boyd young
>>> On Apr 20, 2017 12:24
>>> AM, "Bill Berle"
>>> wrote:
>>> Bill Berle
>>> Private video, need password.
>>> Bill Berle
>>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>> www.grantstar.net
>>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>>> entities
>>> ------------------------------ --------------
>>> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young
>>> wrote:
>>> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>>> To: "Kolb List"
>>> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>>> this is a remake of a
>>> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
>>> with a different video editor that will go to full
>>> screen.
>>> it is 5 min long, enjoy
>>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>>> boyd young
>>> ==== ============================== =
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>>> Navigator?Kolb-List
>>> ==== ============================== =
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==== ============================== =
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer"
>>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==== ============================== =
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>>> contribution
>>> ==== ============================== =
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Air start cart...MA-1A |
What's wrong with a kerosene burning Kolb?
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> Don't guess the list monsters will scream about one picture...:-) Herb
>
>
> On 04/21/2017 12:37 PM, George Helton wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, if it's what I think you're talking about? We used them for ground
>> power and air starting of the engines (J-79)on the F-4 Phantoms when I was
>> Crew Chief in U.S. Air Force. Engine oil should be MIL-L-7808 as I recall.
>> Fuel was JP4.
>>
>> George H.
>> Firestar 1, #FS100
>> 14GDH
>> Mesick, Michigan
>> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
>>
>> Have a great day!
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2017, at 11:46 AM, Hoppy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Off subject...but first ..heck of a deal in Salton California...Kolb
>>> Firestar 1 with trailer and wrecked Firestar...5k for all... Just too far
>>> away for me...Came on Barnstormers yesterday...likely gone by now..!
>>>
>>> off Subject....for you Viet Nam guys and some others....
>>>
>>> Anyone familiar with the Air Start Cart ...model MA-1A . pn 370400
>>>
>>> I have one by trade...hasn't been run in 7 or so years...good oil
>>> supply...will add jet A and two 12 volt batteries later today...Not a
>>> keeper...will advertise it on Barnstormers and possibly EBAY... Turbine is
>>> an Garrett/Air Research GTCE85-15-1. Sn 36P-355 PN 376490...
>>>
>>> I heard it run back in 2010...there bouts...Sitting in the dry ....til
>>> I tarped it last fall ... Any info appreciated...Herb
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/20/2017 11:47 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mistakes???? I thought that I held the worldwide patent and ownership
>>>> of the entire concept!
>>>>
>>>> Bill Berle
>>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
>>>> for-profit entities
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>> On Thu, 4/20/17, B Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>>>> To: "Kolb List"
>>>> Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017, 7:14 AM
>>>> Ok all in one email
>>>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>>>> Password beekeeper
>>>> boyd young
>>>> On Apr 20, 2017 12:24
>>>> AM, "Bill Berle"
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Bill Berle
>>>> Private video, need password.
>>>> Bill Berle
>>>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>>>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>>> www.grantstar.net
>>>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>>>> entities
>>>> ------------------------------ --------------
>>>> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>>>> To: "Kolb List"
>>>> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>>>> this is a remake of a
>>>> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
>>>> with a different video editor that will go to full
>>>> screen.
>>>> it is 5 min long, enjoy
>>>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>>>> boyd young
>>>> ==== ============================== =
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>>>> Navigator?Kolb-List
>>>> ==== ============================== =
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==== ============================== =
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==== ============================== =
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>>>> contribution
>>>> ==== ============================== =
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
I believe that I mentioned in my earlier post concerning the tundra
tires, that I had some dribble in my right tire when taking off. I
considered that it might be because I only had 5 pounds of air in the
tires. I aired the tires up to 7 lbs. just in case that was what was
going on.
I finally caught a bit of a break in the weather, so I decided to set
up some cameras at differing angles to see if I could figure out what
is going on. I of course checked the tires and gear leg to make sure
that the problem was not with them. Every thing seemed snug and
normal.
I collected all the video and slapped together a short video, and was
able to see the effects but not the reason. I have however come to a
conclusion that satisfies me, correct or not.
The dribble only occurs on take off and it comes at the last few
seconds that the plane is still on the ground but getting lighter. The
forward speed is around 40 MPH. It only occurs on take off. My landing
was a wheel landing and I touched down at about 48 MPH and it did not
bounce or dribble at all.
While odd, it appears that I might have a somewhat useful aspect to
it. I know when the wheel dribbles, I am at take off speed, and the
plane is light enough to fly. :-)
The video for what it is worth will be out later this evening. Any
comments or thoughts will be entertained.
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | video- tundra tire |
https://vimeo.com/214265452 password owyheeflyer
Here is the video. You can determine your download speed by clicking
on the HD in the lower right corner. It defaults to "Auto"
Larry
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: spiral jetty video |
| From: | Lanny Lambdin <lambdinwilliam(at)gmail.com> |
Boyd, nicely done with some interesting history too.
Lanny
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 20, 2017, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote:
>
> My biggest apologies the pass word is
>
> beekeeper
>
> Boyd Young
>
> PS I've made bigger mistakes
>
>> On Apr 20, 2017 12:24 AM, "Bill Berle" wrote:
>>
>> Private video, need password.
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-pr
ofit entities
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Wed, 4/19/17, B Young wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Kolb-List: spiral jetty video
>> To: "Kolb List"
>> Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 8:34 PM
>>
>> this is a remake of a
>> video that i did a couple years ago.. i've done it
>> with a different video editor that will go to full screen.
>> it is 5 min long, enjoy
>> https://vimeo.com/213943022
>>
>> boyd young
>>
>> =========================
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Kolb-List
>> =========================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
>> =========================
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Break-away Tail Wheel |
| From: | "KJ4CTZ" <Kj4ctz(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks guys,
I applied a little heat with a propane torch and used a very large crecent wrench
to twist off the old tailwheel. Worked like a charm.
Thanks for the help,
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468682#468682
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: video- tundra tire |
I had the same problem with my Twinstar MK II many year ago Larry. Never did find
a solution for it. I just got so I'd touch the brakes a bit just as I broke
ground. Nice video!
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton@ gmail.com
Mesick, MI.
Have a great day!
> On Apr 22, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
>
> https://vimeo.com/214265452 password owyheeflyer
>
> Here is the video. You can determine your download speed by clicking
> on the HD in the lower right corner. It defaults to "Auto"
>
> Larry
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: video- tundra tire |
Thanks for the comments. I have decided that it going to be my cue as
to when to rotate. I just wonder why it is only one tire?
Larry
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:02 PM, George Helton wrote:
>
> I had the same problem with my Twinstar MK II many year ago Larry. Never did
find a solution for it. I just got so I'd touch the brakes a bit just as I broke
ground. Nice video!
>
> George H.
> Firestar 1, #FS100
> 14GDH
> gdhelton@ gmail.com
> Mesick, MI.
> Have a great day!
>
>> On Apr 22, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://vimeo.com/214265452 password owyheeflyer
>>
>> Here is the video. You can determine your download speed by clicking
>> on the HD in the lower right corner. It defaults to "Auto"
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> --
>> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
>>
>> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
>> address before sending.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | video- tundra tire |
The one that doesn't bounce is the one that is better balanced.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: video- tundra tire
-->
Thanks for the comments. I have decided that it going to be my cue as to when to
rotate. I just wonder why it is only one tire?
Larry
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:02 PM, George Helton wrote:
>
> I had the same problem with my Twinstar MK II many year ago Larry. Never did
find a solution for it. I just got so I'd touch the brakes a bit just as I broke
ground. Nice video!
>
> George H.
> Firestar 1, #FS100
> 14GDH
> gdhelton@ gmail.com
> Mesick, MI.
> Have a great day!
>
>> On Apr 22, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>>
>> -->
>>
>> https://vimeo.com/214265452 password owyheeflyer
>>
>> Here is the video. You can determine your download speed by clicking
>> on the HD in the lower right corner. It defaults to "Auto"
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> --
>> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
>>
>> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
>> address before sending.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before
sending.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: video- tundra tire |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Kinda what I was thinking. Easy to test; swap sides with the wheels & go
fly.
Charlie
On 4/24/2017 7:36 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> The one that doesn't bounce is the one that is better balanced.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:25 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: video- tundra tire
>
> -->
>
> Thanks for the comments. I have decided that it going to be my cue as to when
to rotate. I just wonder why it is only one tire?
>
> Larry
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:02 PM, George Helton wrote:
>>
>> I had the same problem with my Twinstar MK II many year ago Larry. Never did
find a solution for it. I just got so I'd touch the brakes a bit just as I broke
ground. Nice video!
>>
>> George H.
>> Firestar 1, #FS100
>> 14GDH
>> gdhelton@ gmail.com
>> Mesick, MI.
>> Have a great day!
>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>>>
>>> -->
>>>
>>> https://vimeo.com/214265452 password owyheeflyer
>>>
>>> Here is the video. You can determine your download speed by clicking
>>> on the HD in the lower right corner. It defaults to "Auto"
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob" <rmurrill(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: video- tundra tire |
Big wide tires often need two plane balancing just like a car. Static
balance often inadequate particularly on a lightly sprung support
system.....
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie England
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: video- tundra tire
Kinda what I was thinking. Easy to test; swap sides with the wheels & go
fly.
Charlie
On 4/24/2017 7:36 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> The one that doesn't bounce is the one that is better balanced.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:25 PM
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: video- tundra tire
>
> -->
>
> Thanks for the comments. I have decided that it going to be my cue as to
> when to rotate. I just wonder why it is only one tire?
>
> Larry
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:02 PM, George Helton wrote:
>>
>> I had the same problem with my Twinstar MK II many year ago Larry. Never
>> did find a solution for it. I just got so I'd touch the brakes a bit just
>> as I broke ground. Nice video!
>>
>> George H.
>> Firestar 1, #FS100
>> 14GDH
>> gdhelton@ gmail.com
>> Mesick, MI.
>> Have a great day!
>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Larry Cottrell
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> -->
>>>
>>> https://vimeo.com/214265452 password owyheeflyer
>>>
>>> Here is the video. You can determine your download speed by clicking
>>> on the HD in the lower right corner. It defaults to "Auto"
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Valley Forge Plans |
| From: | "yiflyId." <b.jones(at)mtecom.net> |
Hey anybody have a set of Firestar II plans from the original Valley Forge,PA
days that you'd like to sell .... bought a 1995 early serial # and would like to
have the older drawings to go along with my rebuild... :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468792#468792
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | aileron gap seal: when? |
For you Twinstar builders/restorers, how/when do you install gap seals?
My 1st gen plans say to install the seals before installing the hinges. I'm
planning on using the latex finishing method, and I've used the Stewart
water based glue for covering. Do you pre-shrink the gap seal fabric and
glue it on after the rest of the finish work (final paint), then repaint
after attaching the gap seal?
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> |
| Subject: | aileron gap seal: when? |
Charlie E/Kolbers:
Haven't covered a wing in 17 years, so if I am wrong someone will
promptly correct me please. ;-)
After you shoot the last coat of Polybrush (sealer), the gap seal is
cemented to wing and aileron. I think I used 3" finishing tape and it
is not shrunk.
Use a small needle soldering iron to burn out the rivet holes.
Hinges are riveted after finish painting.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:47 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: aileron gap seal: when?
For you Twinstar builders/restorers, how/when do you install gap seals?
My 1st gen plans say to install the seals before installing the hinges.
I'm planning on using the latex finishing method, and I've used the
Stewart water based glue for covering. Do you pre-shrink the gap seal
fabric and glue it on after the rest of the finish work (final paint),
then repaint after attaching the gap seal?
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike stone <captanstone(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | recovering slingshot wing |
is it acceptable to leave the rivet ends in the 5/16 tubing to rattle around ,or
remove rib tops and bottoms ????
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: recovering slingshot wing |
| From: | "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> |
It must be acceptable; all of them do.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468833#468833
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: aileron gap seal: when? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Hi John,
Thanks for the info. Your description is how I'm reading the plans. But
I'm not sure how to manage a 12' aileron (flaperon) and a 15' wing when
I'll need to flip the assembly numerous times while applying multiple
finish coats, and keep the two components aligned well enough to avoid
peeling off the gap seal from at least one side.
Charlie
On 4/26/2017 9:18 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>
> Haven't covered a wing in 17 years, so if I am wrong someone will
> promptly correct me please. ;-)
>
> After you shoot the last coat of Polybrush (sealer), the gap seal is
> cemented to wing and aileron. I think I used 3" finishing tape and it
> is not shrunk.
>
> Use a small needle soldering iron to burn out the rivet holes.
>
> Hinges are riveted after finish painting.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
> *From:*owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Charlie
> England
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:47 AM
> *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: aileron gap seal: when?
>
> For you Twinstar builders/restorers, how/when do you install gap seals?
>
> My 1st gen plans say to install the seals before installing the
> hinges. I'm planning on using the latex finishing method, and I've
> used the Stewart water based glue for covering. Do you pre-shrink the
> gap seal fabric and glue it on after the rest of the finish work
> (final paint), then repaint after attaching the gap seal?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
April 03, 2017 - April 26, 2017
Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-om