Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-ou

May 02, 2018 - May 11, 2018



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Subject: Re: Balance Master
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 02, 2018
On 5/2/2018 9:58 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > OK, the company is gone and I can play on the 'puter. You can see in the wiring diagram that the generator coil goes to both sets of points via the coils (and the dampening box) via J & K. (These diagrams are from OLD catalogs. I never throw that stuff away) > > Next diagram; on the Bosch 503 magneto, #27 is the generator coil that goes to the points. #29 is the 30W lighting coil, which is what you will hook the Atom to, which will drive your experimental back up ignition, and the wires for that ought to be green, and green/black. > > I am assuming that maybe this is one of those deals where you get a spark every time each piston is close to TDC and BDC, with the BDC spark just a wasted spark. But I have never tried this with a Rotax twin; only with a 277 single. None of this may even work at all. You are exploring new territory. > > I would suggest you get yourself whatever coils you want to use, hook up the wiring, and test it until it makes sense/you sort it out. You can easily use several feet of wire and set yourself up a test bench alongside the cockpit so you are away from the prop. You can still check the ignition advance and retard with a timing light on the magneto even while you are using a remote bench. Once you figure out how it works, then spring for the dual point heads and start looking for a place to put the coils. (I would suggest not installing them on the engine, because if the vibration causes them to get loose, you will have a forced landing. Guess how I know this?) > > The last three images are from an article I submitted to the EAA Experimenter in March, 1990. (And which they actually printed. Wow...) Let me know if this actually works. If it fails to work, let me know that too. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Many thanks for the excellent info. I'll spend some time digesting it, & let you know my results. Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Skip" <skiparu(at)centurylink.net>
Subject:
Date: May 03, 2018
I recently bought a Kolb Mark 111 extra wide. It has a electric trim tab and it just does not work. I am going to remove that and put the original manual trim back. This plane dates back to 1999. I ordered the parts from Brian but has lost the plans for the handle. My question is does anyone have a handle for this vintage aircraft, ser no. MT 99-3-0009, Thanks William (Skip) Rasmussen. skiparu(at)centurylink.net 941 626 9495 --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: No Title
From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Date: May 03, 2018
If I take a bunch of pictures of mine and post them, would that be enough for you to fabricate one? -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479836#479836 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Aircraft and engine for sale
An unexpected turn of events (and other setbacks) may force me to sell my Firestar 2 and HKS engine. I have tentatively listed these (and other aviation stuff) on Barnstormers if anyone is interested. Not sure what will be sold and what will not, but I had to put everything out there and see what the market says. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: No Title
From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Date: May 04, 2018
Pictures sent off-list. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479861#479861 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
From: "3benny3" <the3benny3(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 06, 2018
No one ever done slips or spins in a Kolb? -------- 912ul King Kolbra ;fun plane O300 Cessna 172B ;travel plane Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479903#479903 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 06, 2018
Subject: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
No spins, but plenty of slips. LC On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 8:42 PM, 3benny3 wrote: > > No one ever done slips or spins in a Kolb? > > -------- > 912ul King Kolbra ;fun plane > > O300 Cessna 172B ;travel plane > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479903#479903 > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
Date: May 07, 2018
Yes, I have slipped and spun the Ultrastar, Firestar, and MKIII. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 3benny3 Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2018 9:42 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb? No one ever done slips or spins in a Kolb? -------- 912ul King Kolbra ;fun plane O300 Cessna 172B ;travel plane Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479903#479903 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 07, 2018
Subject: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
Sure, slips in a original Firestar and a Twinstar MKII. Spins in both. Keep you airspeed up in slips like any other aircraft. Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2018, at 10:42 PM, 3benny3 wrote: > > > No one ever done slips or spins in a Kolb? > > -------- > 912ul King Kolbra ;fun plane > > O300 Cessna 172B ;travel plane > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479903#479903 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 07, 2018
Subject: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
Me too both,,,, the slips are not as effective as say something with a full length fuselage, with full flaps on the mkiii slips are not really needed, I've spun the mkiii a couple times, started really high, till I could determine how it recovered from the spin. Doing so I was fully ready to pull the brs handle. My mkiii recovered with relaxed pressures on the control. Your experience may be different. Boyd Young On Mon, May 7, 2018, 5:24 AM John Hauck wrote: > > Yes, I have slipped and spun the Ultrastar, Firestar, and MKIII. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 3benny3 > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2018 9:42 PM > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Slipping and spins in a Kolb? > > > No one ever done slips or spins in a Kolb? > > -------- > 912ul King Kolbra ;fun plane > > O300 Cessna 172B ;travel plane > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479903#479903 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
posted by: "John Hauck" " Yes, I have slipped and spun the Ultrastar, Firestar, and MKIII." John H in your experience, did the spin characteristics and spin recovery match the "normal" expectations an average pilot would have for other small GA aircraft, such as Cubs, Cessnas, Champs, etc? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
posted by: "John Hauck" " Yes, I have slipped and spun the Ultrastar, Firestar, and MKIII." John H in your experience, did the spin characteristics and spin recovery match the "normal" expectations an average pilot would have for other small GA aircraft, such as Cubs, Cessnas, Champs, etc? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: High Thrust Line Question
Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear. When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly. After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back. I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself. So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery. Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...." But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far? So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches???? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 07, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position. Larry On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause > me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a > problem as I fear. > > When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type > gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large > propeller very slowly. > > After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and > putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust > line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with > the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller > diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 > gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not > enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. > > Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would > prevent the wings from folding back. > > I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears > around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without > changing the gearbox itself. > > So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too > high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery. > > Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which > would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, > that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to > nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...." > > But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. > Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and > not have problems... but how far? > > So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can > the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates > safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 > inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches???? > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Slipping and spins in a Kolb?
Date: May 07, 2018
Pretty much a pussy cat when it comes to flying. Spins are a no brainer. Sometimes it helps to get into one, in a MKIII, by a nose high attitude until it stalls, hard rudder and aileron. Relax the stick and it flies right out. My original Firestar would only do a partial turn with the engine at idle. With controls locked it would fly right out of it. However, engine off and it would spin up like a top. Learned that one by accident. I never flew a fixed wing before I flew the test flight for my Ultrastar 34 years ago. I was rotary wing rated. Hadn't flown anything for eight years. Was an easy flight except for landing. It was almost uncontrollable not to come back on the stick when I made my approach. I was more concerned with stalls than anything else. Didn't worry about that in a helicopter. After I got the first landing out of the way, the rest were easy. Kolbs are very easy aircraft to fly. Difficult to hurt yourself if you keep it above the stall speed. They land so slowly one doesn't have to worry about landing with power. Off the top of my head, most Kolb accidents are caused by inadvertently letting the airspeed get too slow leading to a stall. Not correctly reacting to the stall by pulling the stick back to make it fly, instead of pushing it forward to regain airspeed. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 4:53 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Slipping and spins in a Kolb? posted by: "John Hauck" " Yes, I have slipped and spun the Ultrastar, Firestar, and MKIII." John H in your experience, did the spin characteristics and spin recovery match the "normal" expectations an average pilot would have for other small GA aircraft, such as Cubs, Cessnas, Champs, etc? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 07, 2018
Larry C's Warp is a two blade. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position. Larry On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear. When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly. After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back. I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself. So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery. Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...." But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far? So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches???? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position. With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox???? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 07, 2018
I have run 72" props on my mkIII with 3/4" tail boom clearance. That puts the center of thrust 36.375" above the top of the tail boom. If the engine overpowers the elevator, come back on the power a bit. Doesn't take much to get a Kolb off the ground. Soon as you get some airspeed, go back to full throttle. I had to do that initially, when I upgraded from an 80 to a 100 hp 912. Kolbers that let the Kolb nose over on takeoff need to learn how to fly the airplane. I don't dump the throttle on takeoff. Be gentle and it will do what you want it too. Go to longer main gear legs to put the nose up and put more weight on the tail wheel. These are things I have done over the years with my Kolbs. Not recommending anyone else follow suit. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:22 PM Subject: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear. When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly. After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back. I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself. So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery. Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...." But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far? So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches???? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position. With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox???? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: High Thrust Line Question
THANK YOU John H, I appreciate the experience you have shared. I have already put very tall Slingshot gear legs on my Firestar to get the nose up, and larger tires on top of that. I measured 32 inches from the edge of the "socket" tube on the fuselage down the gear leg, around the bend, and down to the axle, making this possibly the "tallest" Firestar out there. It sure looks like a STOL airplane :) I am also looking at photos and videos of Firestars and MK 3's, noticing how far above the wing the thrust line is. I even watched the 20 year old Kolb promotional ideo with a young John H flying the Slingshot :) It APPEARS from those videos that my thrust line with the gearbox turned "up" should fall within those dimensions. Since turning the gearbox around doesn't cost anything, and since I really would like to keep the Kolb and continue getting it in the air, it looks like I will try this first and see. So I'll sell all my other airplane junk instead, and use that money to finish the Kolb :) Anyone need an A-65 engine or a nice Avid Flyer B model airframe? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/7/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 4:14 PM Hauck" I have run 72" props on my mkIII with 3/4" tail boom clearance. That puts the center of thrust 36.375" above the top of the tail boom. If the engine overpowers the elevator, come back on the power a bit. Doesn't take much to get a Kolb off the ground. Soon as you get some airspeed, go back to full throttle. I had to do that initially, when I upgraded from an 80 to a 100 hp 912. Kolbers that let the Kolb nose over on takeoff need to learn how to fly the airplane. I don't dump the throttle on takeoff. Be gentle and it will do what you want it too. Go to longer main gear legs to put the nose up and put more weight on the tail wheel. These are things I have done over the years with my Kolbs. Not recommending anyone else follow suit. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:22 PM To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question Bill Berle Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear. When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly. After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back. I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself. So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery. Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...." But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far? So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches???? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 07, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
I don't know for sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done me or anyone that I know of, wrong. Larry On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position. > > With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox???? > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
With the propeller shaft in the SAME "down" position, the 3.47 gearbox I have will make the propeller turn at 1671 RPM at theax. coninuous power of 5800 engine RPM. At "cruise" RPM it will turn even slower. With the 2.58 gearbox that I suspect you have, your propeller will turn almost 2250 at 5800 engine RPM. So with those numbers, in order to get the same thrust (and absorb the same 60 horsepower and torque from the HKS) I would need a whole lot more propeller blade area than you would need. Usually you can just put on a 4 blade prop or 5 blade, and that will do the trick. But with a Kolb you can't do it and still fold the wings. Putting on a much wider chord propeller blade (a paddle prop that looks like a T-28 warbird) could work, but again in this case the prop blades would hit the rear of the wing when folded. HKS says the gearbox will take almost $2000 to buy, plus some special tools they would rent me, and however much time from a qualified mechanic familiar with these engines. Plus the use of a hydraulic shop press. That is not gonna work in my current situation, and so I briefly considered selling everything I had, engine, airframe, etc. and starting over with another option. But now I have myself calmed down a little and am not throwing wrenches across the shop cursing :) So before I do anything rash, I want to figure out whether the "up" position of the gearbox is a minor problem or a huge problem. I know that "down" is the preference, but that cannot happen because I have the wrong gearbox. I will be HAPPY to call Warp Drive and ask them, he may have some magic wand that the other prop manufacturers don't have. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 5:45 PM I don't know for sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done me or anyone that I know of, wrong.Larry On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position. With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox???? ==== ============================== = -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Kolb-List ==== ============================== = FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ==== ============================== = WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ==== ============================== = b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution ==== ============================== = -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
From: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net>
Date: May 08, 2018
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: > S- N- I- P > > With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. > > S- N- I- P > > > Bill Berle > S- N- I- P > MY FS II is equipped with R503 DCDI, a C Box 3.47 - 1, mounted in the "Up" position and swinging a 68", 3 blade Powerfin 'F' model prop. In a couple of hundred hours, have encountered none of the problems you identified as potential ones. -------- George Alexander FS II R503 E-LSA N709FS http://www.oh2fly.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479931#479931 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fsii_031sm_973.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Souder" <dennislees135(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/07/18
Date: May 08, 2018
You could keep the down box and raise the engine to whatever height might be needed. I think flipping the box would put the prop higher than needed - forget how much. You can get a wider chord prop to Absorb more power in a smaller dia. The prop mfg could say what would work with the 3.47 box. Just some thought based on fuzzy recollections. Dennis ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Subject: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear. When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly. After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust. Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back. I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself. So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery. Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...." But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far? So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches???? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 08, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Don't bother wasting your time calling Darryl. He'll tell you that the gearbox won't work, blah, blah, blah. Horse exhaust. He told me that the 4 to 1 gearbox I run with a 582 was all wrong. Funny thing though, when I had a 582 in the shop with a 2.57 gearbox I started swapping props between the two. I had to put about 20 minutes (yeah, 1/3 of a degree) more pitch on the 4 to 1 engine. Otherwise, performance was the same. For what it's worth, the R3350's of the B29 turned the prop at a bit over 900 rpm. Suggest you leave the gearbox in the up position and put the short side up on the front engine mount and put the rear mounts long side up. Don't know if it will transfer from the Mk III but the lower prop rpm allows me to run a rudder trim tab that's about 1/3 the size of the factory recommended tab and the total deflection angle is only about 5 degrees. I need a tiny amount of right rudder on takeoff and a bit of left rudder in cruise. As for running a four or five blade prop, I have run a three blade Warp and a four blade Power Fin on my HKS. No difference when set right. I even stripped the Power Fin back to two blades. It vibrated a bit more and made virtually no difference so I put the other two blades back in. If you think your thrust line is high, look at the pics. Travis told me the factory set this engine up for the fourth owner of the PFH (plane from hell) who just had to have an "E" gearbox. Your HKS will power your Firestar just fine, your prop will work just fine. I set my HKS so that the prop tops out at 6000 rpm on climb out. Rick On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > With the propeller shaft in the SAME "down" position, the 3.47 gearbox I > have will make the propeller turn at 1671 RPM at theax. coninuous power o f > 5800 engine RPM. At "cruise" RPM it will turn even slower. With the 2.58 > gearbox that I suspect you have, your propeller will turn almost 2250 at > 5800 engine RPM. > > So with those numbers, in order to get the same thrust (and absorb the > same 60 horsepower and torque from the HKS) I would need a whole lot more > propeller blade area than you would need. Usually you can just put on a 4 > blade prop or 5 blade, and that will do the trick. But with a Kolb you > can't do it and still fold the wings. > > Putting on a much wider chord propeller blade (a paddle prop that looks > like a T-28 warbird) could work, but again in this case the prop blades > would hit the rear of the wing when folded. > > HKS says the gearbox will take almost $2000 to buy, plus some special > tools they would rent me, and however much time from a qualified mechanic > familiar with these engines. Plus the use of a hydraulic shop press. That > is not gonna work in my current situation, and so I briefly considered > selling everything I had, engine, airframe, etc. and starting over with > another option. But now I have myself calmed down a little and am not > throwing wrenches across the shop cursing :) > > So before I do anything rash, I want to figure out whether the "up" > position of the gearbox is a minor problem or a huge problem. I know that > "down" is the preference, but that cannot happen because I have the wrong > gearbox. > > I will be HAPPY to call Warp Drive and ask them, he may have some magic > wand that the other prop manufacturers don't have. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question > To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" > Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 5:45 PM > > I don't know for > sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the > propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call > Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he > recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done > me or anyone that I know of, > wrong.Larry > On Mon, May 7, 2018 at > 5:02 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > > > I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in > the down position. > > > With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox???? > > ==== =================== =========== = > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > Navigator?Kolb-List > > ==== =================== =========== = > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ==== =================== =========== = > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ==== =================== =========== = > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > contribution > > ==== =================== =========== = > > > -- > The > older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are > intolerant of others. > If you forward this email, or any part of > it, please remove my email address before sending. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 08, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
PS, the other benefit of lower prop rpm is that your airplane will be a whole lot more quiet. My neighbors told me they could hear the 2.57 gearbox engine all the way around the pattern, but the 4.00 gearbox was below hearing level when the plane was on downwind. Rick On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Don't bother wasting your time calling Darryl. He'll tell you that the > gearbox won't work, blah, blah, blah. Horse exhaust. He told me that the 4 > to 1 gearbox I run with a 582 was all wrong. Funny thing though, when I h ad > a 582 in the shop with a 2.57 gearbox I started swapping props between th e > two. I had to put about 20 minutes (yeah, 1/3 of a degree) more pitch on > the 4 to 1 engine. Otherwise, performance was the same. For what it's > worth, the R3350's of the B29 turned the prop at a bit over 900 rpm. > Suggest you leave the gearbox in the up position and put the short side u p > on the front engine mount and put the rear mounts long side up. > Don't know if it will transfer from the Mk III but the lower prop rpm > allows me to run a rudder trim tab that's about 1/3 the size of the facto ry > recommended tab and the total deflection angle is only about 5 degrees. I > need a tiny amount of right rudder on takeoff and a bit of left rudder in > cruise. > As for running a four or five blade prop, I have run a three blade Warp > and a four blade Power Fin on my HKS. No difference when set right. I eve n > stripped the Power Fin back to two blades. It vibrated a bit more and mad e > virtually no difference so I put the other two blades back in. > If you think your thrust line is high, look at the pics. Travis told me > the factory set this engine up for the fourth owner of the PFH (plane fro m > hell) who just had to have an "E" gearbox. > Your HKS will power your Firestar just fine, your prop will work just fin e. > I set my HKS so that the prop tops out at 6000 rpm on climb out. > > Rick > > On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > >> >> With the propeller shaft in the SAME "down" position, the 3.47 gearbox I >> have will make the propeller turn at 1671 RPM at theax. coninuous power of >> 5800 engine RPM. At "cruise" RPM it will turn even slower. With the 2.58 >> gearbox that I suspect you have, your propeller will turn almost 2250 at >> 5800 engine RPM. >> >> So with those numbers, in order to get the same thrust (and absorb the >> same 60 horsepower and torque from the HKS) I would need a whole lot mor e >> propeller blade area than you would need. Usually you can just put on a 4 >> blade prop or 5 blade, and that will do the trick. But with a Kolb you >> can't do it and still fold the wings. >> >> Putting on a much wider chord propeller blade (a paddle prop that looks >> like a T-28 warbird) could work, but again in this case the prop blades >> would hit the rear of the wing when folded. >> >> HKS says the gearbox will take almost $2000 to buy, plus some special >> tools they would rent me, and however much time from a qualified mechani c >> familiar with these engines. Plus the use of a hydraulic shop press. Tha t >> is not gonna work in my current situation, and so I briefly considered >> selling everything I had, engine, airframe, etc. and starting over with >> another option. But now I have myself calmed down a little and am not >> throwing wrenches across the shop cursing :) >> >> So before I do anything rash, I want to figure out whether the "up" >> position of the gearbox is a minor problem or a huge problem. I know tha t >> "down" is the preference, but that cannot happen because I have the wron g >> gearbox. >> >> I will be HAPPY to call Warp Drive and ask them, he may have some magic >> wand that the other prop manufacturers don't have. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and >> for-profit entities >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: High Thrust Line Question >> To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" >> Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 5:45 PM >> >> I don't know for >> sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the >> propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call >> Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he >> recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done >> me or anyone that I know of, >> wrong.Larry >> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at >> 5:02 PM, Bill Berle >> wrote: >> Bill Berle >> >> >> >> On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in >> the down position. >> >> >> >> With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox???? >> >> ==== =================== =========== = >> >> -List" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ >> Navigator?Kolb-List >> >> ==== =================== =========== = >> >> FORUMS - >> >> eferrer" >> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> >> ==== =================== =========== = >> >> WIKI - >> >> errer" >> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> ==== =================== =========== = >> >> b Site - >> >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> >> rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ >> contribution >> >> ==== =================== =========== = >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The >> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are >> intolerant of others. >> If you forward this email, or any part of >> it, please remove my email address before sending. >> >> >> =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== >> >> >> >> > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Date: May 08, 2018
Bill; notice the extent to which Rick raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the gearbox down and raise the engine up? -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion. I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run. Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me: What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches. I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM Pike" Bill; notice the extent to which Rick raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the gearbox down and raise the engine up? -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 08, 2018
I am certainly not an aeronautical engineer by any means, but I realize that the higher the thrust line the more power it takes to fly. That long arm/lever is doing a good job of pushing the nose down, the elevators are working hard to keep the nose up, and that all takes power. Eventually the high thrust line would probably consume the aircraft. I mentioned a day or so ago a major difference from flying my mkIII with an 80 hp and then making my first takeoff with the 100 hp. It wouldn't break ground until I came back on the power. In a short time muscle memory took care of that little problem, but it was a good demonstration to me how much a high thrust line consumes power. Some things work and some don't. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion. I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run. Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me: What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches. I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM Pike" Bill; notice the extent to which Rick raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the gearbox down and raise the engine up? -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to check it out. Im sure there is a good combination of prop out there for an HKS. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion. > > I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run. > > Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me: What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? > > Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches. > > I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. > > As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM > > Pike" > > Bill; notice the extent to which Rick > raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the > gearbox down and raise the engine up? > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is > wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
3.5" is about 2.5" to much. 1" clearance operating with stand Lord Mounts is more than adequate clearance. I flew with a 72" prop and .75" clearance for many hours, including my last 48 day flight to Alaska and back. Prop might be noisier with the tips passing that close to the tail boom, but I'll take the lower thrust line over noise. I'm flying with a 68" prop that gives me 2.75" of clearance. Can't tell the difference in noise level. It is still noisy. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2018 11:40 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to check it out. Im sure there is a good combination of prop out there for an HKS. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion. > > I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run. > > Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me: What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? > > Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches. > > I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. > > As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM > > Pike" > > Bill; notice the extent to which Rick > raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the > gearbox down and raise the engine up? > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is > wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. What I have learned thus far is: 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM Helton Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to check it out. Im sure there is a good combination of prop out there for an HKS. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion. > > I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run. > > Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me: What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? > > Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches. > > I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. > > As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard > Pike" > > Bill; notice the extent to which Rick > raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the > gearbox down and raise the engine up? > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is > wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. If they dont, Id sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. Im sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. If they dont, Id sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. Im sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
I agree with you that the HKS is great engine. I considered it when I was shopping for a new engine for my original Firestar. But, after talking to Bryan at Kolb it wasnt to be. He didnt think the original Firestars had a strong enough cage assembly ( chromoly steel tubing wall thicknesses)to handle the torque that the HKS produces. I went along with his opinion. We used Belleville washers for many years in heavy equipment powershift transmissions as an alternative to the piston return springs inside the hydraulic clutch packs They worked great. They would fail eventually like anything else. But, it took ten of thousands of cycles. Good luck on the idea. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings. > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques. > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > Helton > > Bill, I know that this might sound > crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. > The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. > > If they dont, Id sure shy away > from buying one. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> I have been pulling out what's > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > afford to change it. >> >> What I have learned thus far is: >> >> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line > on the Kolb airframe. >> >> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is > advisable. >> >> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. >> >> I have considered many possible > solutions or "work-arounds" : >> >> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the > "solutions". >> >> 2) Remove the wings after every > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be > removed and installed by myself alone. >> >> 3) Make a folding propeller, like > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller > will be prohibitvely expensive. >> >> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford > it. >> >> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. >> >> Any other/better/wiser/workable > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! >> >> >> >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > AM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: George >> Helton >> >> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > the >> topic. I replaced my little Rotax > 377 with new low rpm Hirth >> 2702 over the winter. I really > hadnt measured the >> distance between the prop hub and > boom tube. You sparked my >> interest so I stopped by my hanger > this morning to check it >> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. >> which translates to 2400 rpm prop > speed @ the engines >> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. >> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > This >> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > did have to move the >> engine forward 2.625 to > compensate for the extra weight >> of the new gear box. I went with a > 64 3 blade Powerfin >> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > This setup gives me 3.5 >> of clearance from the boom tube. > Thanks for inspiring me to >> check it out. Im sure > there is a good combination >> of prop out there for an HKS. >> George Helton >> 1986 Firestar, FS100 >> 14GDH >> Mesick, Michigan >> gdhelton(at)gmail.com >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > Bill >> Berle >> wrote: >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message > posted >> by: Bill Berle >>> >>> Everybody THANK YOU for > taking >> time for this discussion. >>> >>> I spoke to the Kolb factory > today >> by phone, and went out to the > local UL flying field to see >> an HKS engine run. >>> >>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > asked >> one specific question by me: > What is the maximum >> number of inches allowable or > advisable between the center >> of the propeller and the top of > the tailboom? >>> >>> Bryan said that 36 inches is > about >> standard for a "normal" Firestar, > and he would not want to >> fly an airplane with that distance > raised to 39 or 40 >> inches. >>> >>> I went back to my hangar and >> measured, and the distance on my > Firestar would be over 40 >> or 41 inches if I turned the > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb >> factory owner says 40 inches is > too high, I can only be >> humble and assume that I wouldn't > want to fly it at 40 >> inches either. If any of the > highly experienced Kolbers on >> this forum are flying with their > thrust line 40 inches above >> the tailboom, I REALLY would like > to know about it pronto. >>> >>> As big of an ego as I have had > a >> few times in my life, and as much > as I think of myself as a >> reasonably skilled pilot, I > don't need to be a test >> pilot here and try to push any > envelope at this early stage. >> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > favor... if any of you are >> flying a Firestar with the engine > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 >> incvhes above the tailboom please > post this on the list and >> let me know ifyou have any issues > with the handling, >> pitch-over, etc. >>> >>> Bill Berle >>> www.ezflaphandle.com - >> safety & performance upgrade > for light aircraft >>> www.grantstar.net >> - > winning proposals for non-profit and >> for-profit entities >>> >>> >> > -------------------------------------------- >>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High >> Thrust Line Question >>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > 4:38 >> PM >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message > posted >> by: "Richard >>> Pike" >>> >>> Bill; notice the extent to > which >> Rick >>> raised his engine. (Great >> pictures) Maybe you can leave the >>> gearbox down and raise the > engine >> up? >>> >>> -------- >>> Richard Pike >>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >>> >>> Forgiving is tough, being > forgiven >> is >>> wonderful, and God's grace > really >> is amazing. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >>> Navigator to browse >>> List Un/Subscription, >>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>> - > MATRONICS >> WEB FORUMS - >>> via the Web Forums! >>> - NEW > MATRONICS LIST >> WIKI - >>> Email List Wiki! >>> - List > Contribution >> Web Site - >>> support! >>> > >> >>> -Matt > Dralle, List >> Admin. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
A large Belleville washer is used in the slip clutches in the 912 series gear boxes. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2018 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question I agree with you that the HKS is great engine. I considered it when I was shopping for a new engine for my original Firestar. But, after talking to Bryan at Kolb it wasnt to be. He didnt think the original Firestars had a strong enough cage assembly ( chromoly steel tubing wall thicknesses)to handle the torque that the HKS produces. I went along with his opinion. We used Belleville washers for many years in heavy equipment powershift transmissions as an alternative to the piston return springs inside the hydraulic clutch packs They worked great. They would fail eventually like anything else. But, it took ten of thousands of cycles. Good luck on the idea. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings. > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques. > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > Helton > > Bill, I know that this might sound > crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. > The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. > > If they dont, Id sure shy away > from buying one. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> I have been pulling out what's > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > afford to change it. >> >> What I have learned thus far is: >> >> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line > on the Kolb airframe. >> >> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is > advisable. >> >> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. >> >> I have considered many possible > solutions or "work-arounds" : >> >> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the > "solutions". >> >> 2) Remove the wings after every > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be > removed and installed by myself alone. >> >> 3) Make a folding propeller, like > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller > will be prohibitvely expensive. >> >> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford > it. >> >> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. >> >> Any other/better/wiser/workable > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! >> >> >> >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > AM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: George >> Helton >> >> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > the >> topic. I replaced my little Rotax > 377 with new low rpm Hirth >> 2702 over the winter. I really > hadnt measured the >> distance between the prop hub and > boom tube. You sparked my >> interest so I stopped by my hanger > this morning to check it >> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. >> which translates to 2400 rpm prop > speed @ the engines >> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. >> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > This >> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > did have to move the >> engine forward 2.625 to > compensate for the extra weight >> of the new gear box. I went with a > 64 3 blade Powerfin >> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > This setup gives me 3.5 >> of clearance from the boom tube. > Thanks for inspiring me to >> check it out. Im sure > there is a good combination >> of prop out there for an HKS. >> George Helton >> 1986 Firestar, FS100 >> 14GDH >> Mesick, Michigan >> gdhelton(at)gmail.com >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > Bill >> Berle >> wrote: >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message > posted >> by: Bill Berle >>> >>> Everybody THANK YOU for > taking >> time for this discussion. >>> >>> I spoke to the Kolb factory > today >> by phone, and went out to the > local UL flying field to see >> an HKS engine run. >>> >>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > asked >> one specific question by me: > What is the maximum >> number of inches allowable or > advisable between the center >> of the propeller and the top of > the tailboom? >>> >>> Bryan said that 36 inches is > about >> standard for a "normal" Firestar, > and he would not want to >> fly an airplane with that distance > raised to 39 or 40 >> inches. >>> >>> I went back to my hangar and >> measured, and the distance on my > Firestar would be over 40 >> or 41 inches if I turned the > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb >> factory owner says 40 inches is > too high, I can only be >> humble and assume that I wouldn't > want to fly it at 40 >> inches either. If any of the > highly experienced Kolbers on >> this forum are flying with their > thrust line 40 inches above >> the tailboom, I REALLY would like > to know about it pronto. >>> >>> As big of an ego as I have had > a >> few times in my life, and as much > as I think of myself as a >> reasonably skilled pilot, I > don't need to be a test >> pilot here and try to push any > envelope at this early stage. >> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > favor... if any of you are >> flying a Firestar with the engine > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 >> incvhes above the tailboom please > post this on the list and >> let me know ifyou have any issues > with the handling, >> pitch-over, etc. >>> >>> Bill Berle >>> www.ezflaphandle.com - >> safety & performance upgrade > for light aircraft >>> www.grantstar.net >> - > winning proposals for non-profit and >> for-profit entities >>> >>> >> > -------------------------------------------- >>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High >> Thrust Line Question >>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > 4:38 >> PM >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message > posted >> by: "Richard >>> Pike" >>> >>> Bill; notice the extent to > which >> Rick >>> raised his engine. (Great >> pictures) Maybe you can leave the >>> gearbox down and raise the > engine >> up? >>> >>> -------- >>> Richard Pike >>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >>> >>> Forgiving is tough, being > forgiven >> is >>> wonderful, and God's grace > really >> is amazing. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >>> Navigator to browse >>> List Un/Subscription, >>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>> - > MATRONICS >> WEB FORUMS - >>> via the Web Forums! >>> - NEW > MATRONICS LIST >> WIKI - >>> Email List Wiki! >>> - List > Contribution >> Web Site - >>> support! >>> > >> >>> -Matt > Dralle, List >> Admin. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Date: May 09, 2018
Bill, If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want t o consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer. This should red uce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ---------------------------------------- From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfort unately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. A fter consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engi neer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding th e wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regu lar washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compres sion force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Bell eville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty o f tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a tor que wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a m uch more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop w ith the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making f un of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/H KS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine o n a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-prof it entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can't you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can't imagine that HKS can't supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn't care what gears fit inside of it. If they don't, I'd sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn't measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engine's > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625" to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64" 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5" > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. I'm sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Youre right John. Actually Rotax has used them in their gearboxes for years in smaller version. They stacked them face to face in the anti-clatter mechanisms. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 7:20 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > A large Belleville washer is used in the slip clutches in the 912 series gear boxes. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2018 4:09 PM > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > > > I agree with you that the HKS is great engine. I considered it when I was shopping for a new engine for my original Firestar. But, after talking to Bryan at Kolb it wasnt to be. He didnt think the original Firestars had a strong enough cage assembly ( chromoly steel tubing wall thicknesses)to handle the torque that the HKS produces. I > went along with his opinion. > We used Belleville washers for many years in heavy equipment powershift transmissions as an alternative to the piston return springs inside the hydraulic clutch packs They worked great. They would fail eventually like anything else. But, it took ten of thousands of cycles. Good luck on the idea. > > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Bill Berle wrote: >> >> >> The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. >> >> BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings. >> >> The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques. >> >> This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. >> >> All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. >> >> The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) >> >> The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM >> >> Helton >> >> Bill, I know that this might sound >> crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for >> the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I >> cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. >> The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. >> >> If they dont, Id sure shy away >> from buying one. >> George Helton >> 1986 Firestar, FS100 >> 14GDH >> Mesick, Michigan >> gdhelton(at)gmail.com >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill >> Berle >> wrote: >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: Bill Berle >>> >>> I have been pulling out what's >> left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to >> quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission >> well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. >> I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot >> afford to change it. >>> >>> What I have learned thus far is: >>> >>> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really >> wants to swing a larger propeller than what is >> actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line >> on the Kolb airframe. >>> >>> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards >> will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a >> thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is >> advisable. >>> >>> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 >> blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line >> problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. >>> >>> I have considered many possible >> solutions or "work-arounds" : >>> >>> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and >> remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the >> problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and >> effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the >> "solutions". >>> >>> 2) Remove the wings after every >> flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade >> propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to >> build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be >> removed and installed by myself alone. >>> >>> 3) Make a folding propeller, like >> the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold >> rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground >> equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller >> will be prohibitvely expensive. >>> >>> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. >> This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford >> it. >>> >>> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, >> install the right propeller, and live with the possibly >> dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. >>> >>> Any other/better/wiser/workable >> ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill Berle >>> www.ezflaphandle.com - >> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >>> www.grantstar.net >> - winning proposals for non-profit and >> for-profit entities >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High >> Thrust Line Question >>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >>> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 >> AM >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: George >>> Helton >>> >>> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up >> the >>> topic. I replaced my little Rotax >> 377 with new low rpm Hirth >>> 2702 over the winter. I really >> hadnt measured the >>> distance between the prop hub and >> boom tube. You sparked my >>> interest so I stopped by my hanger >> this morning to check it >>> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox >> with 2:29 to 1 ratio. >>> which translates to 2400 rpm prop >> speed @ the engines >>> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. >>> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. >> This >>> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I >> did have to move the >>> engine forward 2.625 to >> compensate for the extra weight >>> of the new gear box. I went with a >> 64 3 blade Powerfin >>> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. >> This setup gives me 3.5 >>> of clearance from the boom tube. >> Thanks for inspiring me to >>> check it out. Im sure >> there is a good combination >>> of prop out there for an HKS. >>> George Helton >>> 1986 Firestar, FS100 >>> 14GDH >>> Mesick, Michigan >>> gdhelton(at)gmail.com >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, >> Bill >>> Berle >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> --> Kolb-List message >> posted >>> by: Bill Berle >>>> >>>> Everybody THANK YOU for >> taking >>> time for this discussion. >>>> >>>> I spoke to the Kolb factory >> today >>> by phone, and went out to the >> local UL flying field to see >>> an HKS engine run. >>>> >>>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were >> asked >>> one specific question by me: >> What is the maximum >>> number of inches allowable or >> advisable between the center >>> of the propeller and the top of >> the tailboom? >>>> >>>> Bryan said that 36 inches is >> about >>> standard for a "normal" Firestar, >> and he would not want to >>> fly an airplane with that distance >> raised to 39 or 40 >>> inches. >>>> >>>> I went back to my hangar and >>> measured, and the distance on my >> Firestar would be over 40 >>> or 41 inches if I turned the >> gearbox upward. So if the Kolb >>> factory owner says 40 inches is >> too high, I can only be >>> humble and assume that I wouldn't >> want to fly it at 40 >>> inches either. If any of the >> highly experienced Kolbers on >>> this forum are flying with their >> thrust line 40 inches above >>> the tailboom, I REALLY would like >> to know about it pronto. >>>> >>>> As big of an ego as I have had >> a >>> few times in my life, and as much >> as I think of myself as a >>> reasonably skilled pilot, I >> don't need to be a test >>> pilot here and try to push any >> envelope at this early stage. >>> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a >> favor... if any of you are >>> flying a Firestar with the engine >> thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 >>> incvhes above the tailboom please >> post this on the list and >>> let me know ifyou have any issues >> with the handling, >>> pitch-over, etc. >>>> >>>> Bill Berle >>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - >>> safety & performance upgrade >> for light aircraft >>>> www.grantstar.net >>> - >> winning proposals for non-profit and >>> for-profit entities >>>> >>>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------- >>>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High >>> Thrust Line Question >>>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >>>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, >> 4:38 >>> PM >>>> >>>> --> Kolb-List message >> posted >>> by: "Richard >>>> Pike" >>>> >>>> Bill; notice the extent to >> which >>> Rick >>>> raised his engine. (Great >>> pictures) Maybe you can leave the >>>> gearbox down and raise the >> engine >>> up? >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Richard Pike >>>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >>>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >>>> >>>> Forgiving is tough, being >> forgiven >>> is >>>> wonderful, and God's grace >> really >>> is amazing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >>>> Navigator to browse >>>> List Un/Subscription, >>>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>>> - >> MATRONICS >>> WEB FORUMS - >>>> via the Web Forums! >>>> - NEW >> MATRONICS LIST >>> WIKI - >>>> Email List Wiki! >>>> - List >> Contribution >>> Web Site - >>>> support! >>>> >> >>> >>>> -Matt >> Dralle, List >>> Admin. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >>> Navigator to browse >>> List Un/Subscription, >>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>> - MATRONICS >> WEB FORUMS - >>> via the Web Forums! >>> - NEW MATRONICS LIST >> WIKI - >>> Email List Wiki! >>> - List Contribution >> Web Site - >>> support! >>> >> >>> -Matt Dralle, List >> Admin. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution Web Site - >> support! >> >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: primer bulb quality
I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC, it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bulb. The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way through. Here's the link to avoid: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? Thanks, Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
After a broken flapper valve put me back on the ground just seconds after take off I went searching for a better quality primer bulb. That was twelve years ago. Short version, all I could find was "Hecho en Chine" crap. Even the supposedly "good" one from CPS was junk. If you have an electrical system replace it with a Facet pump. That's the surest, safest way to go. Rick Girard On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Charlie England wrote: > I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC, > it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple > of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through > it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This > morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bul b. > The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the w ay > through. > > Here's the link to avoid: > https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_ > detailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > > Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-7939962202052559284_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
Unfortunately, no battery. But I may have to re-think that..... On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote : > After a broken flapper valve put me back on the ground just seconds after > take off I went searching for a better quality primer bulb. That was twel ve > years ago. Short version, all I could find was "Hecho en Chine" crap. Eve n > the supposedly "good" one from CPS was junk. > If you have an electrical system replace it with a Facet pump. That's the > surest, safest way to go. > > Rick Girard > > On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Charlie England > wrote: > >> I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project . IIRC, >> it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a coupl e >> of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through >> it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This >> morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bu lb. >> The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way >> through. >> >> Here's the link to avoid: >> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_de >> tailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1 >> >> Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-3983814855049618153_m_-7939962202052559284_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8- 4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: primer bulb quality
Date: May 11, 2018
Haven't used a primer bulb since my Firestar days, with no battery. When I built the MKIII, the primer bulb was replaced with a Facet fuel pump. Primer bulbs are famous for failing, on the ground and in the air. 1997, while on a flight in the Firestar from Alabama to Miami, I had an engine failure over Sebring, FL. Only place to go was the football stadium at Sebring High School. I made it into that tiny spot and got stopped. The Lord was with me that day. No brakes installed on the Firestar at that time. The primer bulb stopped passing fuel and the pulse pump pulled it flat. If I was going to run a primer bulb I would spend the dollars and buy a name brand, i.e., Honda, Mercury, etc. I like Honda. Had one on a 90 Honda outboard that was very old. When I sold the boat it was still in good shape. The price will scare you when you go to buy a replacement. Usually, in my experience, it's the little things that bring you down more than catastrophic failures. Murphy is always lurking, waiting to do his dirty deeds. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 8:15 AM Subject: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC, it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bulb. The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way through. Here's the link to avoid: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o0 8_s04?ie=UTF8 &psc=1 Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? Thanks, Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
You could check a boat shop. I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. Boyd Young > <#m_-6390720489743258610_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don =99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery t hat charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circu it to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It =99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experienc e. I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains t he same. George Helton 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: > > You could check a boat shop. > > I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, a nd was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. > > Boyd Young > >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Date: May 11, 2018
Facet is the way to go, unless you don't have an electrical system. But even w/o an electrical system, you don' need no steekeen primer bulb... Hard plumb the system as much as possible. Good quality rubber fuel line from the tank to the aluminum fuel line, run that aluminum tubing all the way to the fuel pulse pump. Run clear urethane line (so you can see the fuel going through it) from the fuel pump to the carb and replace it annually. Solder a piece of brass tubing to a brass washer and used a rubber grommet to make a fairly airtight connection to the tank; this is your vent opening. Get a long enough length of model airplane fuel tubing to fit snugly over the brass tube and reach to the side of the fuselage. To prime the engine, blow into the model airplane fuel line until you see the gas start to flow out of the pulse pump toward the carb. Now pinch off the model airplane fuel line and hold it for a minute until the float bowl has time to fill. Walk around to the engine side and verify that the fuel line is full, if the fuel line is full, probably your float bowl is too. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480071#480071 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard1_105.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard2_144.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/vent_111.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/plastic_179.jpeg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
From: Jack <pcarillonsr(at)neo.rr.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
On 5/11/2018 12:00 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > i used to pull the vent line up and just blow in it putting pressure in the fuel tank forceing the fuel up to the carbs. Worked for me. Only drawback you probably introduce a little moisture from your breath into the tank. I now have a plunger primer. > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard1_105.jpeg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard2_144.jpeg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vent_111.jpeg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/plastic_179.jpeg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Bill I can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with A 72 inch prop with 7=9D clearance, 1=9D clearance, a 60=9D prop tu rning 3200 rpm and 72=9D at 2000 rpm. With a 72=9D prop and 7=9D clearance one person operation was f ine but with two I would run out of up elevator at full power. The 60=9D prop turned large amount of power into noise. The three bla de 2000 rpm 72=9D prop gives twice the thrust. If you can fit a 70-74=9D prop depending on prop recommendations with close to 1=9D clearance by raising the engine do it. If you keep the prop c learance the same the apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft change. You might find the big reduction ratio a better overall fit. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIII On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle wrote : > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So > unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. > After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy > engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on wi th > one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before foldi ng > the wings. > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or > Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat > (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable > tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques . > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the > Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is > plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to > use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also > provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to > torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter > Pins, etc. > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop > with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom . > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making > fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other > Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this > engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just > make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > Helton > > Bill, I know that this might sound > crazy but, can=99t you just buy a different set of gears for > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > can=99t imagine that HKS can=99t supply replacement parts. > The gearbox case doesn=99t care what gears fit inside of it. > > If they don=99t, I=99d sure shy away > from buying one. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle > > > > I have been pulling out what's > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > afford to change it. > > > > What I have learned thus far is: > > > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line > on the Kolb airframe. > > > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is > advisable. > > > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > > > I have considered many possible > solutions or "work-arounds" : > > > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the > "solutions". > > > > 2) Remove the wings after every > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be > removed and installed by myself alone. > > > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller > will be prohibitvely expensive. > > > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford > it. > > > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > > > Any other/better/wiser/workable > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question > > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > AM > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > by: George > > Helton > > > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > the > > topic. I replaced my little Rotax > 377 with new low rpm Hirth > > 2702 over the winter. I really > hadn=99t measured the > > distance between the prop hub and > boom tube. You sparked my > > interest so I stopped by my hanger > this morning to check it > > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > > which translates to 2400 rpm prop > speed @ the engine=99s > > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > This > > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > did have to move the > > engine forward 2.625=9D to > compensate for the extra weight > > of the new gear box. I went with a > 64=9D 3 blade Powerfin > > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > This setup gives me 3.5=9D > > of clearance from the boom tube. > Thanks for inspiring me to > > check it out. I=99m sure > there is a good combination > > of prop out there for an HKS. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > Bill > > Berle > > wrote: > >> > >> --> Kolb-List message > posted > > by: Bill Berle > >> > >> Everybody THANK YOU for > taking > > time for this discussion. > >> > >> I spoke to the Kolb factory > today > > by phone, and went out to the > local UL flying field to see > > an HKS engine run. > >> > >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > asked > > one specific question by me: > What is the maximum > > number of inches allowable or > advisable between the center > > of the propeller and the top of > the tailboom? > >> > >> Bryan said that 36 inches is > about > > standard for a "normal" Firestar, > and he would not want to > > fly an airplane with that distance > raised to 39 or 40 > > inches. > >> > >> I went back to my hangar and > > measured, and the distance on my > Firestar would be over 40 > > or 41 inches if I turned the > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > > factory owner says 40 inches is > too high, I can only be > > humble and assume that I wouldn't > want to fly it at 40 > > inches either. If any of the > highly experienced Kolbers on > > this forum are flying with their > thrust line 40 inches above > > the tailboom, I REALLY would like > to know about it pronto. > >> > >> As big of an ego as I have had > a > > few times in my life, and as much > as I think of myself as a > > reasonably skilled pilot, I > don't need to be a test > > pilot here and try to push any > envelope at this early stage. > > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > favor... if any of you are > > flying a Firestar with the engine > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > > incvhes above the tailboom please > post this on the list and > > let me know ifyou have any issues > with the handling, > > pitch-over, etc. > >> > >> Bill Berle > >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > > safety & performance upgrade > for light aircraft > >> www.grantstar.net > > - > winning proposals for non-profit and > > for-profit entities > >> > >> > > > -------------------------------------------- > >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > > Thrust Line Question > >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > 4:38 > > PM > >> > >> --> Kolb-List message > posted > > by: "Richard > >> Pike" > >> > >> Bill; notice the extent to > which > > Rick > >> raised his engine. (Great > > pictures) Maybe you can leave the > >> gearbox down and raise the > engine > > up? > >> > >> -------- > >> Richard Pike > >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > >> > >> Forgiving is tough, being > forgiven > > is > >> wonderful, and God's grace > really > > is amazing. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Read this topic online here: > >> > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - > >> Navigator to browse > >> List Un/Subscription, > >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > >> - > MATRONICS > > WEB FORUMS - > >> via the Web Forums! > >> - NEW > MATRONICS LIST > > WIKI - > >> Email List Wiki! > >> - List > Contribution > > Web Site - > >> support! > >> > > > > >> -Matt > Dralle, List > > Admin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > Navigator to browse > > List Un/Subscription, > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - > > via the Web Forums! > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - > > Email List Wiki! > > - List Contribution > Web Site - > > support! > > > > > -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback. After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller. The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc. Onward ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM BillI can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60 prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000 rpm. With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person operation was fine but with two I would run out of up elevator at full power. The 60 prop turned large amount of power into noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the thrust. If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft change. You might find the big reduction ratio a better overall fit. Rick NeilsenRedrive VW powered MKIII On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. If they dont, Id sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. Im sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
Bill, I was wondering? Did you buy this HKS engine and gearbox combination from a HKS distributor? If so, is HKS in such a state of financial insecurity that it wont even consider swapping the the gearbox you have for one you need for say a 20 to 30% restock or exchange fee? It sure disturbs me to think of that kind business practice. Id think they would have a hard time selling engines in the future. I mean I understand that you ordered the wrong gearbox, but come on. Maybe I just spent to much time in sells, rental and customer service. -George- Sent from my iPhone > On May 11, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback. > > After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller. > > The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc. > > Onward ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM > > Bill I > can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with > A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60 > prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000 > rpm. > With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person > operation was fine but with two I would run out of up > elevator at full power. > The 60 prop turned large amount of power into > noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the > thrust. > If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop > recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the > engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the > apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft > change. > You might find the big reduction ratio a better > overall fit. > Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered > MKIII > > > > > On Wed, May 9, > 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox > case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and > slide them into place. > > > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other > potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced > aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can > make a simple prop extension that is held on with one > central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller > before folding the wings. > > > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville > Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel > washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is > tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression > force over a reasonable range of installation torques. > > > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut > until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be > confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the > propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, > elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides > a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of > havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the > bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. > > > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or > 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's > recommended distance from the tailboom. > > > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will > never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane > into a major engineering project :) > > > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe > the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. > If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my > mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you > get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > > > > Helton > > > > Bill, I know that this might sound > > crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears > for > > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > > cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement > parts. > > The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of > it. > > > > If they dont, Id sure shy away > > from buying one. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > > Berle > > wrote: > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: Bill Berle > > > > > > I have been pulling out what's > > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want > to > > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved > reliability. > > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > > afford to change it. > > > > > > What I have learned thus far is: > > > > > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > > actually "correct" for the height of the > thrust line > > on the Kolb airframe. > > > > > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks > is > > advisable. > > > > > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > > > > > I have considered many possible > > solutions or "work-arounds" : > > > > > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of > the > > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all > the > > "solutions". > > > > > > 2) Remove the wings after every > > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 > blade > > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me > to > > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to > be > > removed and installed by myself alone. > > > > > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like > > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades > fold > > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex > ground > > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a > propeller > > will be prohibitvely expensive. > > > > > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot > afford > > it. > > > > > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > > > > > Any other/better/wiser/workable > > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - > > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > > www.grantstar.net > > - winning proposals for non-profit and > > for-profit entities > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > > Thrust Line Question > > > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > > AM > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: George > > > Helton > > > > > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > > the > > > topic. I replaced my little Rotax > > 377 with new low rpm Hirth > > > 2702 over the winter. I really > > hadnt measured the > > > distance between the prop hub and > > boom tube. You sparked my > > > interest so I stopped by my hanger > > this morning to check it > > > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > > > which translates to 2400 rpm prop > > speed @ the engines > > > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > > > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > > This > > > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > > did have to move the > > > engine forward 2.625 to > > compensate for the extra weight > > > of the new gear box. I went with a > > 64 3 blade Powerfin > > > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > > This setup gives me 3.5 > > > of clearance from the boom tube. > > Thanks for inspiring me to > > > check it out. Im sure > > there is a good combination > > > of prop out there for an HKS. > > > George Helton > > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > > 14GDH > > > Mesick, Michigan > > > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > > Bill > > > Berle > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> --> Kolb-List message > > posted > > > by: Bill Berle > > >> > > >> Everybody THANK YOU for > > taking > > > time for this discussion. > > >> > > >> I spoke to the Kolb factory > > today > > > by phone, and went out to the > > local UL flying field to see > > > an HKS engine run. > > >> > > >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > > asked > > > one specific question by me: > > What is the maximum > > > number of inches allowable or > > advisable between the center > > > of the propeller and the top of > > the tailboom? > > >> > > >> Bryan said that 36 inches is > > about > > > standard for a "normal" Firestar, > > and he would not want to > > > fly an airplane with that distance > > raised to 39 or 40 > > > inches. > > >> > > >> I went back to my hangar and > > > measured, and the distance on my > > Firestar would be over 40 > > > or 41 inches if I turned the > > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > > > factory owner says 40 inches is > > too high, I can only be > > > humble and assume that I wouldn't > > want to fly it at 40 > > > inches either. If any of the > > highly experienced Kolbers on > > > this forum are flying with their > > thrust line 40 inches above > > > the tailboom, I REALLY would like > > to know about it pronto. > > >> > > >> As big of an ego as I have had > > a > > > few times in my life, and as much > > as I think of myself as a > > > reasonably skilled pilot, I > > don't need to be a test > > > pilot here and try to push any > > envelope at this early stage. > > > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > > favor... if any of you are > > > flying a Firestar with the engine > > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > > > incvhes above the tailboom please > > post this on the list and > > > let me know ifyou have any issues > > with the handling, > > > pitch-over, etc. > > >> > > >> Bill Berle > > >> www.ezflaphandle.com > - > > > safety & performance upgrade > > for light aircraft > > >> www.grantstar.net > > > - > > winning proposals for non-profit and > > > for-profit entities > > >> > > >> > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > > > Thrust Line Question > > >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > > 4:38 > > > PM > > >> > > >> --> Kolb-List message > > posted > > > by: "Richard > > >> Pike" > > >> > > >> Bill; notice the extent to > > which > > > Rick > > >> raised his engine. (Great > > > pictures) Maybe you can leave the > > >> gearbox down and raise the > > engine > > > up? > > >> > > >> -------- > > >> Richard Pike > > >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > >> > > >> Forgiving is tough, being > > forgiven > > > is > > >> wonderful, and God's grace > > really > > > is amazing. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Read this topic online here: > > >> > > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > >> Navigator to browse > > >> List Un/Subscription, > > >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > >> - > > MATRONICS > > > WEB FORUMS - > > >> via the Web Forums! > > >> - NEW > > MATRONICS LIST > > > WIKI - > > >> Email List Wiki! > > >> - List > > Contribution > > > Web Site - > > >> support! > > >> > > > > > > > >> -Matt > > Dralle, List > > > Admin. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > > Navigator to browse > > > List Un/Subscription, > > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > > - MATRONICS > > WEB FORUMS - > > > via the Web Forums! > > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST > > WIKI - > > > Email List Wiki! > > > - List Contribution > > Web Site - > > > support! > > > > > > > > -Matt Dralle, List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > Navigator to browse > > List Un/Subscription, > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > via the Web Forums! > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > Email List Wiki! > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > support! > > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: primer bulb quality
Date: May 11, 2018
Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator". Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery. It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also acted as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the old capacitor was reinstalled. But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before the startup. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. image1.jpeg I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains the same. George Helton 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: You could check a boat shop. I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. Boyd Young ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Subject: primer bulb quality
Date: May 11, 2018
Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator". Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery. It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also acted as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the old capacitor was reinstalled. But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before the startup. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. image1.jpeg I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains the same. George Helton 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: You could check a boat shop. I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. Boyd Young ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: primer bulb quality
Check the Harley parts suppliers, too. I put a capacitor system on an early Sporty so the generator could power the lights without a battery. The mag fired the engine just fine and the cap smoothed out the pulse that made the lights flash at low rpm. Here's one: https://vintagetriumphparts.com/Sparx_Capacitor_w_Spring_Battery_Eliminator /p2461?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMta4eQwdngZeCsMKKy3DwS2e7iCL5XCs0ltB vTU9DrxzliYE4UvKixoC4-YQAvD_BwE and another: https://www.jpcycles.com/product/381-043/accel-battery-eliminator-capacitor ?mrkgcl=444&mrkgadid=1330269437&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&ut m_term=74945772970product_type_l1vehicles_%26_parts%26product_type_l2land _vehicles%26product_type_l3mot&utm_campaign=PLA+-+Shopping+Campaign&produ ct_id=381-043&utm_content=pla&adpos=1o1&creative=42040095730&device =c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMkQZwoIKEyhHP eBf2y0zGR3qpkDT8T0IpuyT1KfRw0BoV87owOSD3xoColEQAvD_BwE Rick On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:43 PM, John Hauck wrote: > Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator". > Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery. > It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also act ed > as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I > rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the > old capacitor was reinstalled. > > > But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before > the startup. > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- > server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *George Helton > *Sent:* Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM > *To:* kolb-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality > > > I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I > don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery > that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging > circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It=99s > all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. [imag e: > image1.jpeg] > I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remai ns the > same. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: > > You could check a boat shop. > > > I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no ide a > how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, > and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. > > > Boyd Young > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: mojavjoe <mojavjoe(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
BILL My two cents. On my FSII I could fold the wings with a two bladed prop horizontal by loosing the rear mount and lifting the engine slightly. Take a few measurements and you might be able to use a four bladed prop. joe > On May 11, 2018 at 1:44 PM Bill Berle wrote: > > > > THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback. > > After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller. > > The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc. > > Onward ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM > > Bill I > can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with > A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60 > prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000 > rpm. > With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person > operation was fine but with two I would run out of up > elevator at full power. > The 60 prop turned large amount of power into > noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the > thrust. > If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop > recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the > engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the > apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft > change. > You might find the big reduction ratio a better > overall fit. > Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered > MKIII > > > > > On Wed, May 9, > 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox > case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and > slide them into place. > > > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other > potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced > aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can > make a simple prop extension that is held on with one > central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller > before folding the wings. > > > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville > Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel > washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is > tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression > force over a reasonable range of installation torques. > > > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut > until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be > confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the > propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, > elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides > a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of > havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the > bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. > > > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or > 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's > recommended distance from the tailboom. > > > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will > never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane > into a major engineering project :) > > > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe > the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. > If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my > mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you > get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > > > > Helton > > > > Bill, I know that this might sound > > crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears > for > > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > > cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement > parts. > > The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of > it. > > > > If they dont, Id sure shy away > > from buying one. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > > Berle > > wrote: > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: Bill Berle >


May 02, 2018 - May 11, 2018

Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-ou