Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-aa
November 27, 1996 - June 03, 1997
________________________________________________________________________________
Not to get too excited but I am ready to see if we can handle some
traffic.
Here goes.
I read in on of the recent newsletter articles about the use of
roller chain master links as shackles. What do you all think? I am
going to pick some up this weekend and have a look see for myself.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
Steve,
Here is a shot at a reply.
I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my ship in
leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember correctly,
they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a buck
and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
The only drawback I have seen is that they are not quite shaped perfectly for
the job. These look a little screwy if they are pulled at an angle rather
than in a straight line. This is probably not a serious problem. I have put
a few AN flat washers on the link to kind of shim out some of the space.
What do y'all think about this? It would be interesting to hear some more
discussion.
Happy Thanksgiving!
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
Got the turkey going and am going out to spend a few minutes "leaning
over" the PROJECT. Does it get any better than this? Wishing well to all
and have a happy Turkey day.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
Hi,
> I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my ship in
> leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember correctly,
> they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
> words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a buck
> and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's drag
and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in the
mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech shackles
;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can just
come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they can set
you back pretty quick.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBrusilow(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
<< roller chain master links as shackles >>
Hey guys, it's an airplane not a bicycle. What are we talking about? We
are talking about two live people in an airplane at altitude.As for me, I
want the best stuff holding it together.
Happy turkey day
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Flying different planes |
>> Tedgreetings, Ted ,I was in Orlando last week and toured the searay foctory
>there but ran out of time and was unable to get down to naples . I have
>a nephew in st pete and missed seeing him also. plan on being in
>lakeland for S&f in april as well as brodhead 96 . your right , the list
>did go pretty wild. I thought it our local server as they have been
>doing some upgrades. Sounds like it is OK now. Ernie Hagness
>
>
Ernie,
Searay factory? You going to try flying one of those?
Let me know if you can make it to Naples. Usually have a place to sleep at
my place. Keep in touch if you are coming to Sun n'fun. I should be there.
Ted Brousseau/APF
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Flying different planes |
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
>
> >> Tedgreetings, Ted ,I was in Orlando last week and toured the searay foctory
> >there but ran out of time and was unable to get down to naples . I have
> >a nephew in st pete and missed seeing him also. plan on being in
> >lakeland for S&f in april as well as brodhead 96 . your right , the list
> >did go pretty wild. I thought it our local server as they have been
> >doing some upgrades. Sounds like it is OK now. Ernie Hagness
> >
> >
> Ernie,
>
> Searay factory? You going to try flying one of those?
>
> Let me know if you can make it to Naples. Usually have a place to sleep at
> my place. Keep in touch if you are coming to Sun n'fun. I should be there.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> Sunny SW Florida
Greetings Ted. My computer crashed and my son in law put a new hard
drive in and if cours I lost everything except the messages that were
left on the server .He also blessed me with a bunch of new programs so I
am starting at zero. Tis is the second time I have lost all mt bookmarks
so will have to start rebuilding. Concerning the searay, a friend in
Corpus Christi has a kit and we are moving the fuselage to my garage for
final assembly and engine mounting . this will free up his garage to
cover the wings . That was my reason for the visit to the sea ray
plant.Chet Tims, who is the owner of this kit , has taken some dual in
the demo at orlando he will be going back for some additional time and
get signed off for solo. He is a pretty good spam can driver but I will
wait for him to get proficiant in the sea ray befor i start flying with
him . I have O water or amphib time so will be a coatholder while he
learns. Ernie Hagness.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
>Hi,
>
>> I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my=
ship in
>> leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember=
correctly,
>> they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
>> words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a=
buck
>> and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>
>
>Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's=
drag
>and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in=
the
>mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech
shackles
>;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can=
just
>come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they can=
set
>you back pretty quick.
>
>Ken
>
>
Internet: ken(at)aurean.ca
>
>
More Motorcycle parts for planes:
In one of the "flying and Glider Manual" I read an article about using
motorcycle spokes as turbuckles.
I got the idea of using Harley=B4s or maybe Jaguar car=B4s spokes.
The modification is to continue the tread for 1 or 2", use an angle with a
hole to fix the spoke to the plane, and in the side of the special spoke nut
make a piece of bent strip with one hole forthe spoke, and another for the
cable conection, sorry that my english is not so good, and I cant send a
"drawing" through this e-mail.
But look in the F & G M I think is a good idea.
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
>
><< roller chain master links as shackles >>
>
> Hey guys, it's an airplane not a bicycle. What are we talking about? We
>are talking about two live people in an airplane at altitude.As for me, I
>want the best stuff holding it together.
>
> Happy turkey day
>
> Mike
>
Sorry if you think like that, Aviation people thank the Wrights, Burt Rutan,
and else for not thinking this way. imagine 5 people flying in a completly
asimetrical airplane Oh!!!! (the Bumerang).
Just for your surprise: The Harrier jet USES bicycle chains to turn his
jets down to hoover.
Think positive, think invention, think aviation... Or buy a Cessna, etc.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:34:04
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)infored.com.mx>
>Subject: Re: A real message!
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>> I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my
ship in
>>> leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember=
correctly,
>>> they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In=
other
>>> words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a
buck
>>> and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>>
>>
>>Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's=
drag
>>and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in=
the
>>mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech
shackles
>>;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can=
just
>>come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they can=
set
>>you back pretty quick.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>
Internet: ken(at)aurean.ca
>>
>>
>More Motorcycle parts for planes:
>
>In one of the "flying and Glider Manual" I read an article about using
motorcycle spokes as turbuckles.
>
>I got the idea of using Harley=B4s or maybe Jaguar car=B4s spokes.
>
>The modification is to continue the tread for 1 or 2", use an angle with a
hole to fix the spoke to the plane, and in the side of the special spoke nut
make a piece of bent strip with one hole forthe spoke, and another for the
cable conection, sorry that my english is not so good, and I cant send a
"drawing" through this e-mail.
>
>But look in the F & G M I think is a good idea.
>
>Saludos
>
>Gary Gower
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:45:48
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)infored.com.mx>
>Subject: Re: A real message!
>
>>
>><< roller chain master links as shackles >>
>>
>> Hey guys, it's an airplane not a bicycle. What are we talking about? We
>>are talking about two live people in an airplane at altitude.As for me, I
>>want the best stuff holding it together.
>>
>> Happy turkey day
>>
>> Mike
>>
>Sorry if you think like that, Aviation people thank the Wrights, Burt
Rutan, and else for not thinking this way. imagine 5 people flying in a
completly asimetrical airplane Oh!!!! (the Bumerang).
>
>Just for your surprise: The Harrier jet USES bicycle chains to turn his
jets down to hoover.
>
>Think positive, think invention, think aviation... Or buy a Cessna, etc.
>
>Saludos
>
>
>Gary Gower.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBrusilow(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
Hi Garry:
I had a few cessnas, bonanzas, etc, but I most enjoy my Piet which I have
been flying since l988
For the record my Piet has several modifications eg; three foot center
section, adjustable cabane struts, exterior elevator walking beam & others.
Great group, keep talking,we are here to learn.
Mike.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
> For the record my Piet has several modifications eg; three foot center
>section, adjustable cabane struts, exterior elevator walking beam & others.
>
> Great group, keep talking,we are here to learn.
>
> Mike.
>
Yes ! While we're at it, a while back at the USAF Museum in
Dayton, OH I unashamedly got in line with a bunch of kids to
take my turn at sitting in the cockpit of an F-4 Phantom. GUESS
WHAT ? It has a rudder bar ! Bernie and McDonnell Douglas.
Bet they copied it off the Piet. :) Keep building ! Mike C., Ohio.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Change of e-mail address |
>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:07:21
>To: crosby
>From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)infored.com.mx>
>Subject: Change of e-mail address
>
>My e-mail is going to change to
>
>ggower(at)informador.com.mx since Dec 1/96
>
>saludos
>
>Gary Gower
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
<< But look in the F & G M I think is a good idea. >>
Which one?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:50:02 +0000 (GMT)
>From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
>Subject: Re: A real message!
>Sender: Maiser(at)apollo.byu.edu
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Errors-to: Steve_Eldredge(at)byu.edu
>Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>X-Listname:
sunasci.informador.com.mx id JAA00947
>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:34:04
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)infored.com.mx>
>>Subject: Re: A real message!
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>> I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my
>ship in
>>>> leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember
correctly,
>>>> they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In=
other
>>>> words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or=
a
>buck
>>>> and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>>>
>>>
>>>Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's=
drag
>>>and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in=
the
>>>mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech
>shackles
>>>;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can=
just
>>>come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they
can set
>>>you back pretty quick.
>>>
>>>Ken
>>>
>>>
Internet: ken(at)aurean.ca
>>>
>>>
>>More Motorcycle parts for planes:
>>
>>In one of the "flying and Glider Manual" I read an article about using
>motorcycle spokes as turbuckles.
>>
>>I got the idea of using Harley=B4s or maybe Jaguar car=B4s spokes.
>>
>>The modification is to continue the tread for 1 or 2", use an angle with=
a
>hole to fix the spoke to the plane, and in the side of the special spoke=
nut
>make a piece of bent strip with one hole forthe spoke, and another for the
>cable conection, sorry that my english is not so good, and I cant send a
>"drawing" through this e-mail.
>>
>>But look in the F & G M I think is a good idea.
>>
>>Saludos
>>
>>Gary Gower
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: A real message! |
>
><< But look in the F & G M I think is a good idea. >>
>
>Which one?
>
>John
>
>
Is in the 1929, page 30, figure 3.
There are several books and plans from pioneers, that have real great ideas,
because there had to "invent" the parts, A little of their ideas and some
of the spensive parts in high strengh and important parts, can make a good
inexpensive and save airplane,
Buying all the parts trough Aircraft parts stores dont make a safe plane, is
common sence and structural tests and following the plans as close as possible.
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Turnbuckle source |
> From: ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca
> Subject: Re: A real message!
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> Hi,
>
> > I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my ship
in
> > leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember correctly,
> > they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
> > words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a buck
> > and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>
>
> Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's drag
> and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in the
> mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech shackles
> ;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can just
> come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they can set
> you back pretty quick.
>
> Ken
>
Call B&B Supply in Kansas. I picked up some about 100 or so
turnbuckles from them for under $5 apiece. That was about a year
ago but a friend building a Piet was able to get some recently
Steve E.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Change of e-mail address |
changed thanks-steve e.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: roller links was(Re: A real message!) |
John, and others.
Your description obout the roller links is just what I did too. I
went down to the local bearing supply house with a piece of cable I
had put an eye into to see how things sized up. I came out with to
very acceptable links. I choose two sizes. I use the RS41 rated
average strength of 2640lbs for the control linkages such as aileron
controls, and the RS50 (7050lbs, way overkill I know) for the flying
wire to structure connection. The pins on the RS50 are just larger
than 3/16" in diameter. From the Aircraft Spruce Catalog 1/8"
stainless cable load rating is 1790lbs and the AN115 -21 ($3.85) shackle is
2100lbs. I feel comfortable with using these links. If you use the
RS41 in a cable to cable connection it does not need any shims
(washers) The RS50 is much bigger and I used washers as shims to
keep the loads straight like John. For the RS41's I paid $.55 and
the RS50's were a whopping $.70 each.
Stevee
> Steve,
>
> Here is a shot at a reply.
>
> I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my ship in
> leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember correctly,
> they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
> words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a buck
> and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>
> The only drawback I have seen is that they are not quite shaped perfectly for
> the job. These look a little screwy if they are pulled at an angle rather
> than in a straight line. This is probably not a serious problem. I have put
> a few AN flat washers on the link to kind of shim out some of the space.
>
> What do y'all think about this? It would be interesting to hear some more
> discussion.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving!
>
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bellissimod(at)cs.lsl.litton.com |
Can't get through lately. This is test #3.
Regards, Domenic
________________________________________________________________________________
Read you loud and clear.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
Those using engines other than the "A" have an option of relocating
the tank from the wing to the nose. I am at the point of deciding
and would like others points of view as to the pros and cons of each.
I like the idea of moving the tank to the fuse from an ease of access
point of view, but changing cg during a long flight has me worried
due to gas being burned off.
Comments?
STeve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kbickers <kbickers(at)indiana.edu> |
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Pietenpol Discussion wrote:
> Those using engines other than the "A" have an option of relocating
> the tank from the wing to the nose. I am at the point of deciding
> and would like others points of view as to the pros and cons of each.
> I like the idea of moving the tank to the fuse from an ease of access
> point of view, but changing cg during a long flight has me worried
> due to gas being burned off.
>
> Comments?
>
> STeve E.
Steve, I have struggled with this same question. Ultimately, I have decided
on the wing tank for three or four basic reasons. One, the CG issue. If the
tank is in the wing center section, there is virtually no effect on CG as
fuel is burned. Two, having the fuel that much higher than the engine should
ensure plenty of fuel pressure at the carburetor. I'm not sure a fuselage
tank would be as certain in this regard. Maybe it would be. I just don't
know. Third, I don't like fuel in the fuselage. In the event of a crash,
I'd like a little more separation between me (and my passenger) and any
leaking fuel. Fourth (and finally), I'm planning to use the area where
a fuselage tank would go for a storage locker. I can easily imagine
wanting quick and frequent access to such a storage area, whereas when
fueling, there is usually a ladder handy, so getting up to the tank is not
such a big deal.
Your mileage may differ, of course. Regards, Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>>On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Pietenpol Discussion wrote:
>
>> Those using engines other than the "A" have an option of relocating
>> the tank from the wing to the nose. I am at the point of deciding
>> and would like others points of view as to the pros and cons of each.
>> I like the idea of moving the tank to the fuse from an ease of access
>> point of view, but changing cg during a long flight has me worried
>> due to gas being burned off.
>>> Comments?
>>
Steve, CG is a valid concern. (especially when trying to manipulate
a chart if the cg is off some) Frank P. runs a nose tank 65 Cont. and
wouldn't mind some kind of elev. trim, but says it's not too bad.
I guess the cabanes with this kind of tank/eng need to slope back about
3.5". Brian K's cabanes w/a 65 Cont. look perfectly upright-
thanks to a longer motor mount. I have an 18 gal. nose tank and 65
Cont. and was concerned about having enough head pressure as K.
Bickers mentioned. To find my unuseable fuel I followed Tony
Bingelis' method: Placed plane on a grass barn ramp (about 16 deg.
incline), put 5 gals. in tank and measured flow rate at carb inlet with
a graduated Rubbermaid container. Tony says somewhere in the
FAR's that a gravity feed system must provide 150 % of max. power
fuel consumption for your engine in a climb. My unuseable fuel
turned out to be just over 1 gallon. I rigged up a little trim lever just
under my seat which actuates two spring loaded cables that attach to
to small arms of 4130 welded to the elev. walking beam cross tube.
A friction lock knob keeps the lever where I put it. Least on the
ground you can feel the stick forces change nicely. Someone told
me that Bernie used this type of trim on one of his Piets as I recall.
Tell you more when she flies. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.boeing.com> |
I concur with Ken whole heartedly and can add that I had a Fraklin
powered Piet with the nose tank. With no trim system you will
experience a shift in stick pressure to maintain level flight but I
never found it annoying or dangerous....you just adjust as time passes.
Besides, I was enjoying myself so much I hardly noticed!!!
Bill
>----------
>From: kbickers[SMTP:kbickers(at)indiana.edu]
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 1996 8:30 AM
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Re: Fuel Tanks
>
>
>On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Pietenpol Discussion wrote:
>
>> Those using engines other than the "A" have an option of relocating
>> the tank from the wing to the nose.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> STeve E.
>
>
>Steve, I have struggled with this same question. Ultimately, I have decided
>on the wing tank for three or four basic reasons. One, the CG issue. If the
>tank is in the wing center section, there is virtually no effect on CG as
>fuel is burned. Two, having the fuel that much higher than the engine should
>ensure plenty of fuel pressure at the carburetor. I'm not sure a fuselage
>tank would be as certain in this regard. Maybe it would be. I just don't
>know. Third, I don't like fuel in the fuselage. In the event of a crash,
>I'd like a little more separation between me (and my passenger) and any
>leaking fuel. Fourth (and finally), I'm planning to use the area where
>a fuselage tank would go for a storage locker. I can easily imagine
>wanting quick and frequent access to such a storage area, whereas when
>fueling, there is usually a ladder handy, so getting up to the tank is not
>such a big deal.
>
>Your mileage may differ, of course. Regards, Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
>
>
>On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Pietenpol Discussion wrote:
>
>> Those using engines other than the "A" have an option of relocating
>> the tank from the wing to the nose. I am at the point of deciding
>> and would like others points of view as to the pros and cons of each.
>> I like the idea of moving the tank to the fuse from an ease of access
>> point of view, but changing cg during a long flight has me worried
>> due to gas being burned off.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> STeve E.
>
>
>Steve, I have struggled with this same question. Ultimately, I have decided
>on the wing tank for three or four basic reasons. One, the CG issue. If the
>tank is in the wing center section, there is virtually no effect on CG as
>fuel is burned. Two, having the fuel that much higher than the engine should
>ensure plenty of fuel pressure at the carburetor. I'm not sure a fuselage
>tank would be as certain in this regard. Maybe it would be. I just don't
>know. Third, I don't like fuel in the fuselage. In the event of a crash,
>I'd like a little more separation between me (and my passenger) and any
>leaking fuel. Fourth (and finally), I'm planning to use the area where
>a fuselage tank would go for a storage locker. I can easily imagine
>wanting quick and frequent access to such a storage area, whereas when
>fueling, there is usually a ladder handy, so getting up to the tank is not
>such a big deal.
>
>Your mileage may differ, of course. Regards, Ken
>
>
If you decide for a wing tank, Aircraft Spruce sells a Stearman type fuel
gauge that can be positioned in one side of the tank, is 8" tall.
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bellissimod(at)cs.lsl.litton.com |
stevee,
something strange is happening. I'm receiving mail from the discussion group,and
at the same time it is being returned undelivered. I got your message a couple
of d
of days ago that I was getting through to the group, but also got my message returned
undelivered
returned undelivered.
Regards, Domenic
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: returned mail |
> From: bellissimod(at)cs.lsl.litton.com
> Subject: returned mail
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> stevee,
> something strange is happening. I'm receiving mail from the discussion group,and
> at the same time it is being returned undelivered. I got your message a couple
of d
> of days ago that I was getting through to the group, but also got my message
returned undelivered
> returned undelivered.
>
> Regards, Domenic
>
Domenic,
It might have something to do with your address in the list. I
changed it to match the one in this message. The other possibility
is that you are sending to something other than piet(at)byu.edu.
stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | List problem nailed but not resolved |
Just an update. You may have (or may not have) noticed that the list
problems have stopped. It is definatly load releated. We have found
that it starts happening when there are so many members that the
system times out before there is an ak back from the delivery server.
We are working on reseting the time-outs so we can get everyone back
on the list. If you know of someone who will contribute who isn't on
the list right now I have a few more vacancy's.
Hopefully we will go back to full circulation soon.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: List problem nailed but not resolved |
>Just an update. You may have (or may not have) noticed that the list
>problems have stopped. It is definatly load releated. We have found
>that it starts happening when there are so many members that the
>system times out before there is an ak back from the delivery server.
>We are working on reseting the time-outs so we can get everyone back
>on the list. If you know of someone who will contribute who isn't on
>the list right now I have a few more vacancy's.
>Hopefully we will go back to full circulation soon.
>
>Stevee
>
>
Dear Steve,
Congratulations and gracias amigo for you efort in keeping us united and
working (or interested) in this wonderfull plane.
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: List problem nailed but not resolved |
Thank Gary
My continued pleasure (I hope :))
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wooden Landing gear |
I am really torn by the decision on whether to do the landing gear in
all wood or metal.
The questions that come to mind are:
1. What is the weight difference between all wood and all metal?
2. I have the plans for the all wood gear from the 1932 Glider Manual,
BUT, how is the axle hooked to the woden frame? I am assuming that there
has to be bungee cord somewhere in the system.
3. How much would be sacrificed in cruise speed wood versus metal? Does
it matter?
Would sure like to hear some comments from both sides if possible. If
anyone has a drawing of the axle assembly attachment, or knows where it
can be found, I would appreciate your help. If possible to fax it, send
Attention Ian Holland 807-623-7555.
The reasons that I am asking are:
1. I like wood
2. It could look pretty, different
3. I don't weld worth a darn!
However, I see more tubes than wood!
Help! Please?
-=Ian=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBrusilow(at)aol.com |
I have a 16 gal center section fuel tank, With a 0-200 that gives me a
two and a half hour range with reserve, I built the center section from Chad
Willie's prints.
I made a good size door giving into the space behind the firewall.You can
put a lot of stuff in there. Also it allows one to inspect the inside motor
mount fittings.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wooden Landing gear |
> I am really torn by the decision on whether to do the landing gear in
> all wood or metal.
>
> The questions that come to mind are:
>
> 1. What is the weight difference between all wood and all metal?
This depends on what you use. I think it is safe to say that the
metal gear is in most instances lighter. Mine has metal gear and I
estimate it weighs less than 25lbs from the bottom of the fuse down.
I know of another project that has wood legs that weighs 65 pounds.
It has a lifting wing between the wheels however which should ofset
some of the extra weight. More drag-- but hey. its a piet.
> 2. I have the plans for the all wood gear from the 1932 Glider Manual,
> BUT, how is the axle hooked to the woden frame? I am assuming that there
> has to be bungee cord somewhere in the system.
Thats right --its just the bungies. Unless like on some ships you
build a square tube and channel affair to provide for brakes and a
non rotating axle.
> 3. How much would be sacrificed in cruise speed wood versus metal? Does
> it matter?
>
who cares. See above statement on drag.
> Would sure like to hear some comments from both sides if possible.
I used the steel tube gear because I thought it looked better. I
have had second thoughts now that it is all done. I guess I better
build a second plane. Either is authentic, and both work. Just pick
what you like and build it up. There is lots more welding (obviously)
with the steel gear, but I don't think you save time either way.
I think that I have seen several different drawings for the straight
axle. Very simple if you forget the brakes. I think there were some
drawings in the past issuse of the Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter.
I'll have to do some digging for them since I opted for the tube
gear.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wooden Landing gear |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
Thanks for the input! I had no idea that the weight difference would be
so great! Up here we have to comply with a climb test, so the lighter
the better. I like the looks of the wood, but will likely jig up and
have the welding done someone that make two pieces of metal stick
together properly. I saw a really neat jig that should allow me to do
the work other than the welding.
Just curious, did the query on wooden landing gear get on the general
chat list, or to you directly? Even after you said you'd stick me back
on, I was getting delivery error messages.
The more I think of it, the more I had better try to get to Brodhead in
1997. You do allow attendees from out of state/country?
Thanks again, the project is starting to move along.
> I am really torn by the decision on whether to do the landing gear in
> > all wood or metal.
> >
> > The questions that come to mind are:
> >
> > 1. What is the weight difference between all wood and all metal?
> This depends on what you use. I think it is safe to say that the
> metal gear is in most instances lighter. Mine has metal gear and I
> estimate it weighs less than 25lbs from the bottom of the fuse down.
> I know of another project that has wood legs that weighs 65 pounds.
> It has a lifting wing between the wheels however which should ofset
> some of the extra weight. More drag-- but hey. its a piet.
>
> > 2. I have the plans for the all wood gear from the 1932 Glider Manual,
> > BUT, how is the axle hooked to the woden frame? I am assuming that there
> > has to be bungee cord somewhere in the system.
> Thats right --its just the bungies. Unless like on some ships you
> build a square tube and channel affair to provide for brakes and a
> non rotating axle.
>
> > 3. How much would be sacrificed in cruise speed wood versus metal? Does
> > it matter?
> >
> who cares. See above statement on drag.
>
> > Would sure like to hear some comments from both sides if possible.
>
> I used the steel tube gear because I thought it looked better. I
> have had second thoughts now that it is all done. I guess I better
> build a second plane. Either is authentic, and both work. Just pick
> what you like and build it up. There is lots more welding (obviously)
> with the steel gear, but I don't think you save time either way.
>
> I think that I have seen several different drawings for the straight
> axle. Very simple if you forget the brakes. I think there were some
> drawings in the past issuse of the Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter.
> I'll have to do some digging for them since I opted for the tube
> gear.
>
> Steve E.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Have not recieved anything |
Since mu new email address, (changed server name) (dec 1/96)I have not
recieved any mail.
Just cheking
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Have not recieved anything |
Gary,
This is a reply to your message.
There hasn't been any activity the last 2 weeks. Hopefully everyone
is busy working on their planes between holidays. I regret that I
can't report so however.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | light tern plate |
What the heck it the equavalent.
In other words, What is everyone making their tanks from ?
Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca |
| Subject: | Re: light tern plate |
Hi,
>
> What the heck it the equavalent.
>
> In other words, What is everyone making their tanks from ?
>
> Steve.
>
Although not a Piet, There is a series of articles on the Christavia MK IV
web page on the construction of a fiberglass tank which I used for my MK I.
The Page can be found off of my Christavia page:
http://www.aurean.ca/~ken/christavia.html
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: light tern plate |
>What the heck it the equavalent.
>
>In other words, What is everyone making their tanks from ?
>
>Steve.
Stevee- Frank P. and his Dad used tern plate and had leaks and
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr Paul S. Collier" |
| Subject: | Re: light tern plate |
wrote:
>
I would be grateful if you would let me know what you used to coat the inside of
the fuel tank.
Many thanks,
Paul S. Collier
School of Pharmacy
The Queen's University of Belfast
97 Lisburn Road
Belfast BT9 7BL
N. Ireland, U.K
Tel: +44 (0)1232 272009
FAX: +44 (0)1232 247794
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: light tern plate |
>I would be grateful if you would let me know what you used to coat the
inside of
>the fuel tank.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Paul S. Collier
>
Paul- I will stop by at the airport tonight and write down all the specs.
on the sloshing compound. I believe it may have been a DuPont
product. It is specifically for aircraft fuel tank sealing and works
very easily and quickly. Cost by the gallon is very high and since
it only requires a cup or so to do a Piet tank it would be great to
share some already available. Actually, my tank probably took
less than a 1/2 cup. Best Regards, M. Cuy , Clev. Oh.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: light tern plate |
As a precaution, I, too, had used a sloshing sealer, a Randolph product at
the time, in both wing and fuselage tanks; it worked well for about a year.
But repeated use of auto fuel caused it to turn into a molasses-like gel
which blocked everything and was very difficult to clean out. I have since
removed the sealer, everything works fine with much less worry.
Jim Malley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Where goeth the list? |
Steve,
I have not got a message in weeks. Hope you get this message. I talked to
another person on the list and they have not gotten anything either.
Just wanted you to know if you didn't.
Happy holidays.
Ted Brousseau/APF
thejudge(at)peganet.com
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBrusilow(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: Turnbuckle source |
Eldredge) writes:
<< Call B&B Supply in Kansas. >>
Steve, do you have an address or phone number?
Mike
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: steve_eldredge(at)byu.edu (Steve Eldredge)
Sender: Maiser(at)apollo.byu.edu
Reply-to: piet(at)byu.edu (Pietenpol Discussion)
Date: 96-12-02 14:18:55 EST
> From: ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca
> Subject: Re: A real message!
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> Hi,
>
> > I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my
ship in
> > leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember
correctly,
> > they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
> > words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a
buck
> > and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>
>
> Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's
drag
> and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in
the
> mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech
shackles
> ;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can
just
> come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they can
set
> you back pretty quick.
>
> Ken
>
Call B&B Supply in Kansas. I picked up some about 100 or so
turnbuckles from them for under $5 apiece. That was about a year
ago but a friend building a Piet was able to get some recently
Steve E.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>As a precaution, I, too, had used a sloshing sealer, a Randolph product at
>the time, in both wing and fuselage tanks; it worked well for about a year.
>But repeated use of auto fuel caused it to turn into a molasses-like gel
>which blocked everything and was very difficult to clean out. I have since
>removed the sealer, everything works fine with much less worry.
>
>Jim Malley
>
Jim is right on. I checked-out these sealers avail. thru AC Spruce and
Wicks and both advise against using any fuel w/ alcohol when
using this sealer. It is Randolph no. 802 cost: $14/qt.
They also advertise a alcohol-resistant sealer no. 912 for $15/qt
which is ' recommended as a superior product to no. 802.'
The mil spec. they call out for Randolph 802 is MIL-L-6047.
The product I used is Fuller O'Brien Technical Coatings 8509,
zinc chromate fuel tank sloshing compound, Spec. AC-359 AM1.
I will have to do a test on this stuff now in case I have to use a
fuel which may contain alcohol. Good- we learned something !
Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wing plan dicrepency? |
I am building the 3 piece wing, adnd noticed a discrepency on the full
size wing rib plan. Obviously, the rib plan is for a 1 inch rib. What
are
you guys doing about the 1/4 inch discrepency? It would appear that the
thrust load at the back of the spar (from the compression load) should
be transferred to the main spar.
Are you enlarging (lengthening) the two cross members to do this? or
does it matter?
I am getting more confused than ever about the type of glue to use in
the wing structure. I like the T-88, but they sy it softens above
150degrees.
Any comments would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing plan dicrepency? |
> I am building the 3 piece wing, adnd noticed a discrepency on the full
> size wing rib plan. Obviously, the rib plan is for a 1 inch rib. What
> are
> you guys doing about the 1/4 inch discrepency?
I built a 1 inch spar and had 1 inch holes in my ribs.
It would appear that the
> thrust load at the back of the spar (from the compression load) should
> be transferred to the main spar.
>
I Don't follow you on this here.
> Are you enlarging (lengthening) the two cross members to do this? or
> does it matter?
>
> I am getting more confused than ever about the type of glue to use in
> the wing structure. I like the T-88, but they sy it softens above
> 150degrees.
> Any comments would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing plan dicrepency? |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> > I am building the 3 piece wing, adnd noticed a discrepency on the full
> > size wing rib plan. Obviously, the rib plan is for a 1 inch rib. What
> > are
> > you guys doing about the 1/4 inch discrepency?
>
> I built a 1 inch spar and had 1 inch holes in my ribs.
>
> It would appear that the
> > thrust load at the back of the spar (from the compression load) should
> > be transferred to the main spar.
> >
> I Don't follow you on this here.
>
>
Sorry, If you used a 1 inch thick spar, you would need the one inch
hole(s) to fit. I have the 3/4 inch thich spar, and the plans show a one
inch hole. I was wondering if it was necessary to alter braces one and 9
(0 is the nose) to close the gap.
> > Are you enlarging (lengthening) the two cross members to do this? or
> > does it matter?
> >
> > I am getting more confused than ever about the type of glue to use in
> > the wing structure. I like the T-88, but they sy it softens above
> > 150degrees.
> > Any comments would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Where goeth the list? |
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> I have not got a message in weeks. Hope you get this message. I talked to
> another person on the list and they have not gotten anything either.
>
> Just wanted you to know if you didn't.
>
> Happy holidays.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> thejudge(at)peganet.com
> Sunny SW Florida
Ted. The list seems to be still active as i am getting several
responses in my in box from it ,as well as your message to steve. Merry
Christmas to all and Happy 1997. The weather in south Texas has turned
too cold for any Piet flying , I hope you have it warmer in Naples.
Forcast is for 17% tonight and maybe snow and ice in the Corpus
Christi,area. An Additional note for the folks that may be interested in
naval aviation history , The carrier lady lex , The Blue Ghost is
permently morred here in Corpus Chisti , and is open for tours. It was
recently used for the change of command cerimonies for the chief of
naval aviation and has quite an interesting history. Ernie Hagness
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing plan dicrepency? |
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
> >
> > > I am building the 3 piece wing, adnd noticed a discrepency on the full
> > > size wing rib plan. Obviously, the rib plan is for a 1 inch rib. What
> > > are
> > > you guys doing about the 1/4 inch discrepency?
> >
> > I built a 1 inch spar and had 1 inch holes in my ribs.
> >
> > It would appear that the
> > > thrust load at the back of the spar (from the compression load) should
> > > be transferred to the main spar.
> > >
> > I Don't follow you on this here.
> >
> >
> Sorry, If you used a 1 inch thick spar, you would need the one inch
> hole(s) to fit. I have the 3/4 inch thich spar, and the plans show a one
> inch hole. I was wondering if it was necessary to alter braces one and 9
> (0 is the nose) to close the gap.
>
>
Got it. If I were building the 3/4" spar I would reposisition the
center braces to make up the difference. IE leave the front face of
the front spar and the rear face of the rear spare in the same place.
Another option and one that I would probably opt for is making a 1"
cap top and bottom to bring the dementions back to 1". Maybe there
are other opinions.
Stevee.
BTW I used aerolite and Weldwood plastic resin. And probably would
again.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing plan dicrepency? |
Any opinion with the Tite Bond II water proof? The factory is Benjamin
(something) Products. I had to boil the parts to get them unbonded.
Saludos
Gary Gower
>
>> Steve Eldredge wrote:
>> >
>> > > I am building the 3 piece wing, adnd noticed a discrepency on the full
>> > > size wing rib plan. Obviously, the rib plan is for a 1 inch rib. What
>> > > are
>> > > you guys doing about the 1/4 inch discrepency?
>> >
>> > I built a 1 inch spar and had 1 inch holes in my ribs.
>> >
>> > It would appear that the
>> > > thrust load at the back of the spar (from the compression load) should
>> > > be transferred to the main spar.
>> > >
>> > I Don't follow you on this here.
>> >
>> >
>> Sorry, If you used a 1 inch thick spar, you would need the one inch
>> hole(s) to fit. I have the 3/4 inch thich spar, and the plans show a one
>> inch hole. I was wondering if it was necessary to alter braces one and 9
>> (0 is the nose) to close the gap.
>>
>>
>Got it. If I were building the 3/4" spar I would reposisition the
>center braces to make up the difference. IE leave the front face of
>the front spar and the rear face of the rear spare in the same place.
> Another option and one that I would probably opt for is making a 1"
>cap top and bottom to bring the dementions back to 1". Maybe there
>are other opinions.
>
>Stevee.
>
>BTW I used aerolite and Weldwood plastic resin. And probably would
>again.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wings and glue (continued) |
Thanks for the input, Steve. I am in the process of cutting a couple of
new cross members to shrink the hole to 3/4 inch. It seems a lot of fuss
for a quarter inch, but I see any bending load being applied only yo
that 1/4 inch gap on the top and bottom cap strip.
I did some kitchen chemistry with the T-88. I know there are a lot of
planes with significantamounts of that epoxy in them, but I am going to
pass on using it.
I put some glued capstrip in the oven (24 hour cure prior) then took the
temperature up to 150 degrees F for one hour. No problem! Fiber broke,
not the glue line.
I then took some test strips up to 180 degrees F for 1 hour. I could
push my finger nail into the glue bead with relative ease. One test
piece broke fibre, another had 50% glue line separation. I did not
simulate 3 hours or more as what could be expected on a hot summer day.
The wife was complaining about all that energy being used to heat four
small pieces of wood! Some of the literature that I found says that
temperatures up to 240F are possible in a wing. If I had to use it, I
would sure want a light colour reflective wing to keep the temperatures
down.
Earlier on, I tossed question out on the use of Timber-Tix out of
Belgium. It reads nice, but a query into the EAA got an unofficial "Not
recommended" Hopefully they will get some of the test data published.
The package indicates upper temperature is 100 degees F for its use. I
will try to return the two tubes that I purchased. If not, I will
probably forward to the EAA, as they were having trouble getting
samples.
Right now I am asking Transport Canada for a current ruling on Aerolite
in Canada. It, and urea formaldehyde glues are not recommended in
Australia anymore. I would hate to start gluing and find I could not get
the plane certified!
Anyway, 1200 (approx) pieces cut and ready! Got to glue soon!
Merry Christmas to everybody, and thanks for all the help!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing plan dicrepency? |
<< Got it. If I were building the 3/4" spar I would reposisition the
center braces to make up the difference. IE leave the front face of
the front spar and the rear face of the rear spare in the same place.
Another option and one that I would probably opt for is making a 1"
cap top and bottom to bring the dementions back to 1". Maybe there
are other opinions. >>
Hold On!! Y'all are working too hard at this!
Per Charlie Rubeck in his excellent rib building forums, all you have to do
is glue a strip of 1/8" ply to each spar (1/2" wide by the heighth of the
spar) where each rib would normally meet it. These fill up the gap to keep
the spars in the correct position relative to the cg and center of pressure,
etc. At least this is what I am doing and it is no problem.
Hope this helps.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Andrews <gandrews(at)golflink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing plan dicrepency? |
> From: JGreenlee(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: Wing plan dicrepency?
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>
> << Got it. If I were building the 3/4" spar I would reposisition the
> center braces to make up the difference. IE leave the front face of
> the front spar and the rear face of the rear spare in the same place.
> Another option and one that I would probably opt for is making a 1"
> cap top and bottom to bring the dementions back to 1". Maybe there
> are other opinions. >>
>
> Hold On!! Y'all are working too hard at this!
>
> Per Charlie Rubeck in his excellent rib building forums, all you have to do
> is glue a strip of 1/8" ply to each spar (1/2" wide by the heighth of the
> spar) where each rib would normally meet it. These fill up the gap to keep
> the spars in the correct position relative to the cg and center of pressure,
> etc. At least this is what I am doing and it is no problem.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> John
>
Excellent suggestion! BTW, I use FPL 16A epoxy. It is inexpensive
and kind to those of us with alergies. It also developes the full
strength of the wood out to a .004 gap. Have used it for about 22
years.
Merry Christmas!
George Andrews
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tjdaff(at)nbnet.nb.ca (tjdaff) |
| Subject: | Re: Welcome from the "New" Pietenpol List |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Welcome to the New and Improved Pietenpol Discussion List
>
> Many thanks to those of you who have been so patient as we go through
> the growing pains of expanding this list. As of Nov 25 1996 the chat
> group has moved to a new server. We have also upgraded the software
> as well. We really hope that this fixes the duplicate mail problem.
> There are a few new instruction for subscribing and unsubscribing. As
> of today we have 73 members of the list. If you recieved this message
> you need not do anything to continue you membership. Submissions to
> the list should be addressed to the new address of "PIET(at)BYU.EDU" This
> is a shortened version that will allow me to make changes without
> having to change the name again. Once agian thanks for you input,
> discussion and patience.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving,
>
> Steve Eldredge
>
> The following is the welcome message:
>
> This list is for builders, pilots, owners, enthusiasts, and anyone
> else interested in this 60+ year old design. Anyone is welcome to present
> questions/answers to the lists, and participation is encouraged.
> Hopefully this will be a forum that will encourage and promote the
> Pietenpol design for another 60+ years.
>
> To subscribe to this list send a message to:
>
> listserv(at)ucsnet.BYU.EDU
>
> Include the following line in the message body:
>
> SUBSCRIBE PIET
>
> To unsubscribe from this list at any time, send a message to:
>
> listserv(at)ucsnet.BYU.EDU
>
> Include the following line in the message body:
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE PIET
>
> To send mail to the list use:
>
> PIET(at)BYU.EDU
>
> Thanks, and enjoy.
>
> Steve Eldredge (list manager and piet builder)
This list is screwing up my email from everyone else, please
UNSUBSCRIBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBrusilow(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: Wing plan dicrepency? |
<<
Per Charlie Rubeck in his excellent rib building forums, all you have to do
is glue a strip of 1/8" ply to each spar (1/2" wide by the heighth of the
spar) where each rib would normally meet it. These fill up the gap to keep
the spars in the correct position relative to the cg and center of pressure,
etc. At least this is what I am doing and it is no problem.
>>
That is exactly what Ed Snyder & I did. His airplane has been flying for
12 yrs & mine for10yrs.
Mike
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: JGreenlee(at)aol.com
Sender: Maiser(at)apollo.byu.edu
Reply-to: piet(at)byu.edu (Pietenpol Discussion)
Date: 96-12-18 10:30:07 EST
<< Got it. If I were building the 3/4" spar I would reposisition the
center braces to make up the difference. IE leave the front face of
the front spar and the rear face of the rear spare in the same place.
Another option and one that I would probably opt for is making a 1"
cap top and bottom to bring the dementions back to 1". Maybe there
are other opinions. >>
Hold On!! Y'all are working too hard at this!
Per Charlie Rubeck in his excellent rib building forums, all you have to do
is glue a strip of 1/8" ply to each spar (1/2" wide by the heighth of the
spar) where each rib would normally meet it. These fill up the gap to keep
the spars in the correct position relative to the cg and center of pressure,
etc. At least this is what I am doing and it is no problem.
Hope this helps.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
How do I subscribe to this list?
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBrusilow(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: Turnbuckle source |
Eldredge) writes:
<<
Call B&B Supply in Kansas. I picked up some about 100 or so
turnbuckles from them for under $5 apiece. That was about a year
ago but a friend building a Piet was able to get some recently
>>
Anyone happen to have the address of B&B Supply?
Mike
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: steve_eldredge(at)byu.edu (Steve Eldredge)
Sender: Maiser(at)apollo.byu.edu
Reply-to: piet(at)byu.edu (Pietenpol Discussion)
Date: 96-12-02 14:18:55 EST
> From: ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca
> Subject: Re: A real message!
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> Hi,
>
> > I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my
ship in
> > leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember
correctly,
> > they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other
> > words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a
buck
> > and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost.
>
>
> Doughhhhhhh! I just spent $50 on shackles from AS&S for my Christavia's
drag
> and anti-drag wires. The order still hasn't arrived but I'm sure it's in
the
> mail. I can assure you that my control cables will use these high tech
shackles
> ;-). Thanks for the great advice even though late for me. Now if we can
just
> come up with a way to eliminate turnbuckles. At $12 to $15 a pop, they can
set
> you back pretty quick.
>
> Ken
>
Call B&B Supply in Kansas. I picked up some about 100 or so
turnbuckles from them for under $5 apiece. That was about a year
ago but a friend building a Piet was able to get some recently
Steve E.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | STEVE8349(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Turnbuckle source |
unsubscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | STEVE8349(at)aol.com |
unsubscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Turnbuckle source |
I will find the address for you. I had it on my list of things to do
but over the weekend that list never gets looked at. Stand by this
channel.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Turnbuckle source |
As promised,
The Phone to B&B is 913-884-5930
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | You are subscribed. -steve |
> From: jkahn(at)dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
> Subject:
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> How do I subscribe to this list?
>
> John Kahn
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
>Ted,
>
>Regarding your Pietenpol question, I generally approach at 60 to 65
>mph but can use speeds lower than that, say 55, and never lack elevator
>authority. In fact, all four different Piets I have flown shared this
>characteristic: good control effectiveness at amazingly low airspeeds.
>They are all of basic Pietenpol design. Yours, I understand, is a Grega
>version and I have never flown any of those in order to make a judge-
>ment. One thing I have found, however, is that overall efficiency and
>control effectiveness are improved by sealing ALL control surface gaps
>(not just the ailerons, which I consider essential for this design) with
>fabric or some kind of tape. Try some duct tape over the upper surfaces
>of the elevator/ tailplane gap and see if it does anything for you.
>Let me know how you make out.
>
>Graham
>
>PS Personally, I don't like to slow these draggy old birds too much on
>either climb-out or approach because their airspeed will decay so
>quickly if one loses power in the first case or makes a mistake in the
>second (when you are short of altitude, extra airspeed is money in
>the bank, so to speak). Surplus airspeed is easily dissipated when you
>don't need it anymore...quite different from flying cleaner, more modern
>types in which surplus airspeed on approach can spoil your whole day.
>If you think you are floating for too long, consider that you may not
>have covered much distance in the process; my a/c, with a stalling speed
>of 35 to 40 mph, can hang there for what seems a long time and does
>not travel very far before settling. At sea level, as compared to our
>elevation, mine would probably hang there in ground effect forever,
>but really wouldn't be going anywhere.
>
>
Graham,
I have been practicing 3 point landings and I would have to describe them as
a "plop". No big bounce but definitely can tell when you hit the ground. I
can land a Cessna 172 or 182 and you can't tell when we touch down. Can a 3
point landing be made like that in a Piet? If so, I will keep practicing.
The only landing I can make like that in the Piet is a power on landing on
the mains.
The gap on the alierons is sealed with cloth that goes from the front bottom
to the back top of the gap. Is that enough or are you suggesting a smooth
joint along the top? To do a smooth joint it would seem that it could only
be smooth when the alieron or elevator was in a down position. When
neuteral there would be excess cloth and that would creat a hump. Am I
understanding it correctly?
Happy holidays,
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Ted,
I am flying a Piet off an 800ft field with trees at the west end. If
I just clear the trees with the AS at 30mph(must not be correst) and
step on the right rudder pedal to the stop. And lower the right wing
it seems to settle in real nice as long as I keep the slip to the
very last second. If I get too slow the right wing will gently start
to drop, a little power picks it right up. I have a rough time on
a normal runway. Power landings on pavement are OK.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Ted,
Your experiences doing 3-point landings on paved runways with a light,
slow airplane like a Pietenpol are about the same as my own. I find that,
in order to touch down with the wing completely stalled I have to "drop
it on", thus preventing a skip or a bounce if the tires touch while the
wing is still lifting. Pavement, I find, is very unforgiving with my air-
plane and I have to crank up my attention levels a whole lot in order to
avoid embarrassment. The Pietenpol is much better suited to grass run-
ways; perhaps that is why it has been called "the pasture pilot's pride
and joy"!
Essentially, the faster and heavier the airplane is, the easier it be-
comes to land smoothly on pavement. With a very light wing loading and
slow landing speed, even hot air rising from the runway surface can make
the landing operation touchy. Perhaps this is why you find a Cessna 182
easier to land smoothly. Personally, I prefer to touch down on the
mainwheels (wheel landing technique) on paved runways which are general-
ly plenty long for a Pietenpol...and thus avoid making a fool of myself
by trying to do a "grease-on" 3-pointer. Being heavier and faster, my
Luscombe 8E is much easier to 3-point on pavement (or grass, for that
matter). But I find wheel landings in the Luscombe much more difficult
to accomplish than with the Pietenpol, likely due to the main landing
gear positioning and other design features. Strange.
Summing up, it sounds as if you really don't have a problem and I'm not
about to challenge you in a 3-point landing contest! Cheers,
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Drag/Anti-drag wires |
Does anyone know how tight the wing drag/anti-drag cables should be ?
Do you get it square and twang each cable until they all sound alike ?
Happy New Year to all,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
>Ted,
>
>Essentially, the faster and heavier the airplane is, the easier it be-
>comes to land smoothly on pavement. With a very light wing loading and
>slow landing speed, even hot air rising from the runway surface can make
>the landing operation touchy. Perhaps this is why you find a Cessna 182
>easier to land smoothly. Personally, I prefer to touch down on the
>mainwheels (wheel landing technique) on paved runways which are general-
>ly plenty long for a Pietenpol...and thus avoid making a fool of myself
>by trying to do a "grease-on" 3-pointer.
Graham,
Sounds like we think alike on this one. At first, I made wheel
landings when I had passengers because I could guarantee a smoother
touchdown. I also use a wheel landing when it is windy or in crosswind
situations.
How much power and speed do you carry on a wheel landing? Enough to
keep the tail high or do you just drag it in on the mains with the tail
wheel barely off the ground?
A second question about a topic we discuss during our hanger flying.
When you have a severe crosswind do you stay on the downwind side of the
runway so that, if you start to weathervane as you slow to drop the tail,
you can then square it into the wind with the width of the runway to be used
to bring it to a stop?
Happy New Year,
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Drag/Anti-drag wires |
Mike,
I just got my drag wires finger tight plus about two more turns.
This resulted in nice twang. My friend Bernie who has built a bunch
of fabric planes says to tighen them up till they sound right? I
told him that helps me a lot. So he came up to check them and said
they were just right. I just check them the other day and they still
sound about the same. I'm not sure but I think there was something
in Tony Binglas' books about tighting drag wires.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
My wife says I need another project. Does any know where I can get
some plans for snow ski's.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | gap seals on air campers |
I saw some discussion on this subject recently but lost it when my
computer crashed. Am trying to rebuild. I have a Grega Air Camper and
would like to seal the aileron and tail feather gaps as I understand
this improves performance esp. on the ground. any advise, input ect will
be appreciated . I am doing a bunch of maintenance on the airframe at
this time and would like to include this in the project. Just got it out
of the FBO shop after a major on the Cont A- 80 and am anxious to fly
but am holding off to do all my maintenace . Also would like to hear
from any one that knows a source for the three sided squared off
windscreen or a source for plans for one. I only have one rounded type
on the rear pit now but saw the square ones at brodhead 96 and liked
them better. Thanks. Ernie Hagness, 2337 Willow Drive , Portland, Texas
78374 ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net
________________________________________________________________________________
> From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
> Subject: Re: ski planes
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> My wife says I need another project. Does any know where I can get
> some plans for snow ski's.
>
> Craig
2 years ago I visited the factory of Avid Aircraft. They had a set
of ski's built up and sitting in a passageway. They might have some
plans. I liked the idea of a wheel through the bottom of the ski. I
want to build up some like them one day.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: gap seals on air campers |
> I saw some discussion on this subject recently but lost it when my
> computer crashed. Am trying to rebuild. I have a Grega Air Camper and
> would like to seal the aileron and tail feather gaps as I understand
> this improves performance esp. on the ground. any advise, input ect will
> be appreciated . I am doing a bunch of maintenance on the airframe at
> this time and would like to include this in the project. Just got it out
> of the FBO shop after a major on the Cont A- 80 and am anxious to fly
> but am holding off to do all my maintenace . Also would like to hear
> from any one that knows a source for the three sided squared off
> windscreen or a source for plans for one. I only have one rounded type
> on the rear pit now but saw the square ones at brodhead 96 and liked
> them better. Thanks. Ernie Hagness, 2337 Willow Drive , Portland, Texas
> 78374 ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net
>
I have never heard of anything but good things about sealing the gaps
on all control surfaces on pietenpols. I imagine it would be the
same for the GN-1. There are several ways of doing it. For
completed aircraft it is as simple as using a 3" wide tape and
running a piece over the hinge line on the top and bottom of the
aileron well. If you are recovering do the same with fabric. Or on
new builds use the Yesterdays wings continuous piano hinge.
I read somewhere about the windshields as well. It wasn't much more
than making a pattern out of particle board to follow the shape of
each window section around the curvature of the cockpit rounds, and
then bending the bottom sill with a hammer.
Good luck,
Steve e
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
To Ted,
Regarding your remarks on wheel landings, we are definitely on the same
wavelength.
I carry about 65 mph and a "touch of power" on approach to a wheel
landing. I try to maintain a constant attitude (in pitch, that is)
and airspeed. I adjust the power slightly to correct for under or
overshooting during the entire approach phase, and try to do a rather
gradual flare at the end. (I find the Piet to be very sensitive in
pitch and flaring too abruptly makes the hold-off phase much more
difficult; smoothness is the key to success). Then I try (always
trying, but not always successful) to maintain a level attitude
allowing the a/c to settle to the runway on the mains by using rather
small power adjustments. It isn't necessary to "pin it down" by shoving
the stick forward on contact IF the touchdown is gentle; the drag
from rolling friction, etc. tends to raise the tail and reduce the
lift of the wing automatically.
Now this works well most of the time in smooth air. In gusty con-
ditions all bets are off and the ground becomes a moving target,
and one will definitely have to "pin it on".
Regarding the crosswind technique you described, I remember my ins-
tructor drilling it into me many years ago...and it has saved my
hide and reputation many times since. I hope others can benefit
from our exchange and I sure wish I had access to something like
E-mail years ago instead of having to learn some things the hard
way.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: gap seals on air campers |
Ernie,
I used RC monocoat for my gap seals. Found a color that matched real
close and glued it on with fabric cement. I think this is better
than the recomented scotch tape.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Anyone building wings who wants a quick leading edge piece can go
to their local lumber yard and purchase stairway handrail.* I found mine
at $ 1.02/ft and bought two fourteen-footers and a 3' piece. (3pc wing).
Two cuts thru your table saw will give you the leading edge piece with
about 5 minutes of light sanding after installation. I think my railing is
douglas fir. I had to shop around some-most places wanted more $/ft.
While looking at mouldings, I bought five seven foot lengths of standard
pine baseboard moulding and ripped off the top 1 1/4" to serve as my
wood trailing edge. (with those 1/16" ply tabs on top & bottom to hold
it in place-plans)
* Be careful as these come in various dimensions.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Easy L.E. Wing |
I read with interest Michael D. Cuy's letter on stairway handrail
being useful for Pietenpol wing leading edge and wish I had thought
of this idea years ago when I built mine. It would hav saved a lot
of work shaping the L.E. and would have provided a more uniform
shape than what I was able to get.
Although it is not an authentic method for the Pietenpol, if I ever
build another (highly unlikely), I will use a wrap-around aluminum
leading edge typical of many designs. Probably .020" 2024T3 (.016"
might be a bit light, but false ribs between regular ribs could do
the trick. Also, built-up ribs of aluminum alloy angles riveted
together would be used (I have used this type of construction on
a "Wag-A-Bond" with success and hav built a sample Pietenpol rib
along the same lines).
Those little 1/2 inch wide 1/6 inch ply tab gussets securing the
trailing edge to the ribs tend to warp under fabric tension over
the years; when I recovered my a/c in 1985 (when it was 15 years
old), I had to replace a lot of them...and I know of others who
have encountered the same problem and corrected it by using a
triangular-shaped gusset.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
| Subject: | Engine & prop size |
We have a GN-1 Aircamper with a 75 hp Cont. that has been reduced to 65 hp
with a smaller venturi. We are thinking about increasing to the full 75 hp
but it occurs to me that maybe 65 is the maximum that should be used. Any
advice?
Second, what size metal prop should be used on a 65/75 hp piet?
Incidently, I took 7 passengers (one at a time) up on Saturday for a CAP
function. Flew this afternoon and watched the sunset. I doesn't get much
better than this.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Engine & prop size |
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
> We have a GN-1 Aircamper with a 75 hp Cont. that has been reduced to 65 hp
> with a smaller venturi. We are thinking about increasing to the full 75 hp
> but it occurs to me that maybe 65 is the maximum that should be used. Any
> advice?
>
> Second, what size metal prop should be used on a 65/75 hp piet?
>
> Incidently, I took 7 passengers (one at a time) up on Saturday for a CAP
> function. Flew this afternoon and watched the sunset. I doesn't get much
> better than this.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> Sunny SW Florida
Greetings Ted; Your description of the weather in Naples almost makes me
want to pack up and move there. We have had some real cold weather here
in south texas. My Grega has an A80 cont. with a McCauley metal prop
1A90/6939 (39 pitch), Cruise is 89mph. at 2250 . Have no idea what top
speed is and never intend to find out as speed is not an issue to me .
By the way I noticed there is a fellow listed in the Naples phone
directory with the same name as mine . It is a norwegian name and has
its roots in luster county norway where my grand parents came from and
as far as I know all folks with this name are related but I dont know
this fellow. He is not listed with an e mail address. I was looking
forward to sun and fun this year but will have to be in Milwaukee all of
april and part of may so it looks like I will have to put sun and fun as
well as Brodhead and oshkosh off until next year. Looking after my aged
mother must come first.Having poor flying weather is not all bad as it
gives us plenty of time to do those maintenance chores that we sometimes
put off on pretty days when we would rather fly. Ernie Hagness
ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: Easy L.E. Wing |
>
>I read with interest Michael D. Cuy's letter on stairway handrail
>being useful for Pietenpol wing leading edge and wish I had thought
>of this idea years ago when I built mine. It would hav saved a lot
>of work shaping the L.E. and would have provided a more uniform
>shape than what I was able to get.
>
>Although it is not an authentic method for the Pietenpol, if I ever
>build another (highly unlikely), I will use a wrap-around aluminum
>leading edge typical of many designs. Probably .020" 2024T3 (.016"
>might be a bit light, but false ribs between regular ribs could do
>the trick. Also, built-up ribs of aluminum alloy angles riveted
>together would be used (I have used this type of construction on
>a "Wag-A-Bond" with success and hav built a sample Pietenpol rib
>along the same lines).
>
>Those little 1/2 inch wide 1/6 inch ply tab gussets securing the
>trailing edge to the ribs tend to warp under fabric tension over
>the years; when I recovered my a/c in 1985 (when it was 15 years
>old), I had to replace a lot of them...and I know of others who
>have encountered the same problem and corrected it by using a
>triangular-shaped gusset.
>
>Graham
>
>
Hope this idea helps, Not easy to write (hope I could scketch in e-mails):
In the Sorrel's Guppy plans the leading edge recomended is something like this:
to put a long piece of 1/2" x about 1 1/2" or 2" wide all the span of the
wing in the leading edge front, with this the front of the airfoil will be
square, and the cap strips will not be so curved (because they dont get all
the way to the front). Then glue a piece of balsa (or blue foam) and grind
it to get the shape of the airfoil, then put the the thin ply to finish the
"D". and cover the wing the normal way.
Hope I got understud and it helps
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine & prop size |
> My Grega has an A80 cont. with a McCauley metal prop
>1A90/6939 (39 pitch), Cruise is 89mph. at 2250 . Have no idea what top
>speed is and never intend to find out as speed is not an issue to me .
Are you serious? Our GN-1 is yellow lined at 90 and red lined at 100. I am
lucky to get 70 mph at 2250.
I will check out the Naples look alike.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Engine & prop size |
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
> > My Grega has an A80 cont. with a McCauley metal prop
> >1A90/6939 (39 pitch), Cruise is 89mph. at 2250 . Have no idea what top
> >speed is and never intend to find out as speed is not an issue to me .
>
> Are you serious? Our GN-1 is yellow lined at 90 and red lined at 100. I am
> lucky to get 70 mph at 2250.
>
> I will check out the Naples look alike.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> Sunny SW Florida
Ted You got me scrathing my head now . I am going to use a more precise
method of measuring my air speed and tach. I dont know how good the on
board instruments are and have never checked them for acuracy. Just took
them on face value . could be a big mistake on my part. will let you
know when I get back in the air and check it out . Good point . I could
be ready to shed the wings or be stalling out at some point if these
things are giving me some bad data. thanks . Ernie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
| Subject: | Annual inspection |
Graham - or any one else,
We are going to do our first annual inspection this weekend. I doubt if the
AI knows anything special about a Piet. Any suggested things to look for
different than any other plane?
Thanks,
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
>Dear Ted,
>
>My mother is staying this winter at the Glades golf area in a condo
>with her friend until April in Naples. She is thrilled I'm building a
>Piet and I'd bet she would like to see yours if that's possible.
>She's not looking for a ride or anything, I just think it would be
>neat for her to see a flying example sometime while she's down
>there. What airport are you based at ?
>
>Hope this was some help, All the best, Michael Cuy
Michael,
I hope you are still reading this list. I tried to send you this message to
your e-mail but it would not go through. Hope you don't mind making it public.
We are based at the Naples Airport, just down the road from the Glades.
Have her give me a call (775-0322) and I would be glad to show her (even
give her a ride) the Piet.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Craig- Don't know about you, but the ski flying here has been zilch.
I like to downhill ski once or twice a year, but have not even been
able to do that.
Let me pick your Piet knowledge for a minute: Would you rein-
force any area on the wing before shrinking fabric if you had it to do
over again ? Any areas bow-in or move around on you more than
you would have liked ?
I faired-in my 1/16" leading edge plywood sheathing last night and
now just down to hinging the aileron and final bracing everywhere.
Did you ever get tired of cleaning T-88 epoxy off you hands ??
Your tape is in the hands of the US Postal Service !!!
See you , Mike Cuy, Cleveland, OH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net> |
>
>Did you ever get tired of cleaning T-88 epoxy off you hands ??
>
>
Mike,
Try washing with vinegar. Also, a good way to clean tools. Just soak in
vinegar and water and wipe off. It really works!
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kenneth Bickers <kbickers(at)indiana.edu> |
Mike,
In the short run, getting some epoxy on your hands is probably no big
deal. Over the long (or even medium) term, you will begin to build up an
allergic reaction to it. What I have done is to pick up a box of a couple
hundred rubber, surgical type gloves at the local Sam's club. Then I just
put on a fresh pair whenever I'm working with epoxy. Clean up is simple:
remove one, throw in trash, remove the other, throw in trash. It's faster,
safer, and probably no more expensive than having to buy lots of vinegar or
other solvents to clean up the mess on your hands.
Ken
At 08:18 AM 2/4/97 EWT, you wrote:
>>
>>Did you ever get tired of cleaning T-88 epoxy off you hands ??
>>
>>
>Mike,
>
>Try washing with vinegar. Also, a good way to clean tools. Just soak in
>vinegar and water and wipe off. It really works!
>
>Ted Brousseau/APF
>nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
>Sunny SW Florida
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Mike,
The only extra bracing I used was on the end ribs, so the fabric
dosen't pull them in when it shrinks. What kind on hinges are you
using on your alerons?
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Mike,
The only part of the wing that has, in my experience, caused dis-
tortion problems due to fabric tension is at the root rib of each
panel. This, of course, applies only to the 3-piece setup; in the
original one-piece wing, no such problem would be encountered.
Different people use different strategies to overcome this problem.
I used extra braces from various points along the root rib to the
wing spars, with only partial success. If I were to do it again,
I would use 1/16 inch plywood strips about 3 inches or so wide glued
to the capstrips, top an bottom. A 1/4 inch square strip following
the curve of the capstrips is then glued along the unsupported edge
of this plywood to stabilize it. I have seen this done on other a/c
and have wished I had done it myself because it seems to work well
and doesn't weigh much.
Let me know how you make out on this.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Mike,
>
>The only extra bracing I used was on the end ribs, so the fabric
>dosen't pull them in when it shrinks. What kind on hinges are you
>using on your alerons?
>
Craig- I have two six foot aluminum aircraft piano hinges that will
serve as the hinge and gap seal. Another builder did that up here
on a Scout and it looked pretty slick.
Mike C.
>Craig
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Thanks to all who helped me with wing reinforcement ideas and how
to get/keep the glue off my hands !
(PS- I don't think any of my tools will ever rust again with the nice
coating of T-88 they all have !!)
Mike C. , Clev. OH
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Testing for life |
Anyone out there?
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
> Anyone out there?
Howdy! I'm here, we'll see if this gets to the list...
Cheers,
-Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Still here, but not doing much flying. Too much snow and I don't want to
bother with skis.
Graham
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Steve Eldredge wrote:
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
A few lurkers out here. :) Have been a Pietenpol fan for many years.
Somewhere I have a set of plans from Bernie that he sent me about 20
years ago. But I'm up to my eyballs in my Stinson 108 restoration
project, and the Piet is one of those "Maybe someday" projects. Glad to
see you're working to keep this discussion going, though. Take care.
JTB
--
John T. Baker
Susanne B. Starkey
25904 Reva Drive
Damascus, MD 20872
e-mail: sstarkey(at)erols.com
Stinson 108-3, NC6197M
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
Glad to see some traffic from my favorite news list. Sorry to say my
project is waiting for me while I work away in cyberspace.
I did buy an underway antique project a few months back, if anyone
recalls my question about the Piet with a Franklin hanging on it. Anyway
there was excellent work done on the Fuselage but it appears to be the
short length fuselage that someone decided to make 2 inches shorter from
the back of the rear pit to the firewall. I plan to remove the covering
as it was the old heavy Stits fabric with an automotive enamel finish
that was applied about 10-12 years ago and is now cracking. I want to
use the newer lighter process - this way I can get a good look at the
underlying structure at the back etc.
Also the wings consist of ribs on spars (solid with no routing per plan)
there is no TE or LE. The problem I see is there are ply gussets from
the main spar to LE on almost all the ribs (both side in some cases).
This adds weight and may also be hiding other problems with the way the
ribs were built. I was thinking I may want to remove the ribs, clean up
the spars and route them according to plan etc. then build a new set of
ribs. Any thoughts along these lines?
This group has always inspired me to move along as does the Grant's BPA
newsletter. This has been a long winter and I guess I need another shot
of encouragement again.
Larry
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Div. *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
Glad to see some traffic from my favorite news list. Sorry to say my
project is waiting for me while I work away in cyberspace.
I did buy an underway antique project a few months back, if anyone
recalls my question about the Piet with a Franklin hanging on it. Anyway
there was excellent work done on the Fuselage but it appears to be the
short length fuselage that someone decided to make 2 inches shorter from
the back of the rear pit to the firewall. I plan to remove the covering
as it was the old heavy Stits fabric with an automotive enamel finish
that was applied about 10-12 years ago and is now cracking. I want to
use the newer lighter process - this way I can get a good look at the
underlying structure at the back etc.
Also the wings consist of ribs on spars (solid with no routing per plan)
there is no TE or LE. The problem I see is there are ply gussets from
the main spar to LE on almost all the ribs (both side in some cases).
This adds weight and may also be hiding other problems with the way the
ribs were built. I was thinking I may want to remove the ribs, clean up
the spars and route them according to plan etc. then build a new set of
ribs. Any thoughts along these lines?
This group has always inspired me to move along as does the Grant's BPA
newsletter. This has been a long winter and I guess I need another shot
of encouragement again.
Larry
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Div. *
--
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Div. *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Graham,
Have you got some photos of your skis?
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Testing for life
> Date: Wednesday, February 26, 1997 14:22 PM
>
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
>
Yep! Not much computing, but a whole lot of building going on! Got 14 ribs
made, the tail feathers and half a fuselage laid out. Finally made the
decision to use aerolite glue and am real happy with it.
Got a question though. For a clockwise (normal) rotating prop, how much do
you offset the vertical stab and which direction? If you stand behind the
beast and look forward, is the leading edge of the vertical stab displaced
right? Or left?
Had abusiness trip down to Atlanta and Augusta last week. Nice flying
weather compared to North western Ontario.
There is a slight revision to the air regs up here where you have to do 5
take offs and landings within 60 days to carry passengers. Heck, i know a
go who qualifies every landing.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
Steve, got your message --testing for life. Still alive in portland,
TEXAS '' Ernie Hagness ehagness @mail.interconnect.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
Steve. I recently purchased two pair of goggles from j c whitney,chicago
Il. They loof like WW2 japanese goggles and are made in korea. I was
real pleased with the style and quality as well as the price of $29.95.
They fit very well over my prescription glasses and are very comfortable
and do not fog up . The very best deal I ever got on goggles. Also
picked up a portable multi-volt rechargeable power pack , can be charged
with 110 volts or 12 volts from Damark at 1-800-729-900 for only $19.99
and shipped free. I run my intercom. Icom A-22 and GPS from this . Its a
good primary supply or back up and saves a lot on battery costs. I liked
it so well I bought 2. Still looking for someone that has a plan for the
3 side suare wind screens or a source to purchase them Would appreciate
any response. Also I lost my notes on gap seals when my pc crashed
,would slso appreciate input on this subject. Ernie Hagness 2337 Willow
Dr. Portland, Texas 78374 ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
>Anyone out there?
>
>Stevee
>
>
You must have ESP. I was just thinking the same thing today as I was flying
my daily "Sun down" flight. I was wondering if the lack of messages was
caused by the fact that the rest of the world is frozen in.
We completed our annual and found one valve leaking. The engine runs a
little smoother and I am hoping to clear the pine trees at the end of the
runway that are sure to have grown a foot by this summer.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dick Dery <dickdery(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
>Anyone out there?
>
>Yeah, I'm here, and I've got a question(well ok, 2 questions).
Where can I find the 1.0 11/32 high tensile capscrews used to attach the
prop hub to the Corvair engine?
2nd question: If tthe 1.0 11/32 capscrews aren't available, what can I use
as a substitute?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
>>Got a question though. For a clockwise (normal) rotating prop, how much do
>you offset the vertical stab and which direction? If you stand behind the
>beast and look forward, is the leading edge of the vertical stab displaced
>right? Or left?
Ian- Go to the left looking from behind. This gives you a little constant
'right rudder' rather than cramping up your right leg. The other adjust-
ment possible is to offset your motor mount, mount fittings, or add
washers between the motor mount and motor (Cont. type) on the
left side looking from behind the plane. Mike C. Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Ian Holland wrote:
Got a question though. For a clockwise (normal) rotating prop, how mu=
ch
do
you offset the vertical stab and which direction? If you stand
behind the
beast and look forward, is the leading edge of the vertical stab
displaced
right? Or left?
Mike's advise of moving the fin to the left is correct, I have heard
that about 1/2" measured at the front of the fin is somewhere in the
neighborhood. I=A0have refrained from permanently setting mine until=
the
final assembly.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
How have you solved the problem of getting fuel level readings from the
tank? I am finishing an aluminum pop-rivet and pro-seal tank and need
to come up with solutions for a site gauge, and fittings.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote:
Also the wings consist of ribs on spars (solid with no routing per
plan)
there is no TE or LE. The problem I see is there are ply gussets
from
the main spar to LE on almost all the ribs (both side in some
cases).
This adds weight and may also be hiding other problems with the way
the
ribs were built. I was thinking I may want to remove the ribs, clean
up
the spars and route them according to plan etc. then build a new set
of
ribs. Any thoughts along these lines?
I don't understand what you mean by no leading edge. It would be an
aweful problem if you didn't have a le on a wing. Do you mean there is
no sheeting? Do you have a 1" spar or a 3/4" spar? As far as tearing
apart the wing, it sounds like a great deal of work. I know that it
would be less work in my case to build a whole new wing if I were going
to build new ribs anyway. With the plywood doublers already in place
for fittings and such I don't see how you would be able to slide the
ribs off the wing. I saved about 16 lbs by routing the spars. Mine are
1" Douglas fir.
With regard to the forward gussetts on the ribs-- Does the gussett
cover the whole rib structure from the front spar forward? Even with
the slopiest of building this should be stronger than a properly
gussetted structure unless some parts were missing on the inside.
Heavier - for sure. A little more detail on what you have would help
here. If the airplane has been flying for a while it may not be worth
the effort to rebuild. Getting the heavy fabric replaced could be your
best route for weight savings. It also lets you get a real close look
at the structures workmanship.
Good Luck,
stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
I left my virtical sab. straight and used a trim tab on the rudder.
If I had it to do over I would have moved the front to the left
about a 1/2".
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Craig,
No, I don't have any photos of the skis I have been using in recent
times. Used Federal A1500 skis years ago with good results. Then a
pair of home made skis, patterned after water skis, also worked very
well in spite of being a bit heavy; they were made of 3/4 inch oak ten
inches wide and about five feet long. The curve was made by soaking
them in boiling water and drying in a form for about a week. Rigging
was according to standard aircraft practice.
Currently I have an old set of Federal SC-1 skis rigged for my Piet
and they are OK also. Because of their greater supporting area, the
oak skis were better in deep or soft snow than the Federals. However,
they needed to have Teflon bottoms in order to make them slide more
easily. I never installed the Teflon because they developed some
cracks and were withdrawn from service. As a result, I would suggest
that ski wood be laminated rather than in one piece.
There are lots of solutions to the ski thing and the Pietenpol is a
great little skiplane with its low takeoff and landing speeds. The
only problem is that the heater doesn't work worth a darn!
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Ted,
You are close to the truth when you were "wondering if the rest of the
world had frozen in". I cannot detect any sign of global warming yet,
and am beginning to wonder about the validity of the concept. February,
however, wasn't too bad and I managed to do a bit of flying...but not
in the Pietenpol (it wasn't THAT warm!).
Graham
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Ted Brousseau wrote:
> >Anyone out there?
> >
> >Stevee
> >
> >
> You must have ESP. I was just thinking the same thing today as I was flying
> my daily "Sun down" flight. I was wondering if the lack of messages was
> caused by the fact that the rest of the world is frozen in.
>
> We completed our annual and found one valve leaking. The engine runs a
> little smoother and I am hoping to clear the pine trees at the end of the
> runway that are sure to have grown a foot by this summer.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> Sunny SW Florida
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Graham,
Thanks, I found some drawings from EAA and have the FAA pub on
rigging. Mike Cuy also sent me sum good stuff. He has a neat VCR
tape of a Piet on skis too. We haven't had any snow to speak of here
anyway. I'd like to be ready for next year though.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Are any of you using impulse mags? I just have the old bendix's and
starting is OK, but.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Ernie,
I used RC Monocoat for my gap seals. Any hobby shop should have an
assortment of colors. It's tougher than the recomened scotch tap
works great. I even found a color that matched. Used fabric cement
and just glued them up under the alerons.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
Craig R. Lawler wrote:
Are any of you using impulse mags? I just have the old bendix's and
starting is OK, but.
Craig
I am about to dig into my A-65 and your comment has made me wonder
about starting. This engine is about 55 years old and has been propped
its whole life. What is there to know about mags?
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Craig,
I have used impulse coupled mags for many years because they eliminate
the problem of kickback, particularly when doing a hot start. With a
direct drive magneto, you have a 30 degree spark advance whch will al-
most guarantee a kickback when using a wooden propeller. If a metal
propeller is used, a strong and skilled "armstrong" will be able to
use the greater inertia of the metal prop. to carry the piston over
top center, thus eliminating kickback and a lot of danger.
One needs only to have one impulse magneto on the left side of the en-
gine (when viewed from the rear). It should fire the lower plugs and
the engine will be started on the left magneto only, switching to
"BOTH" once the engine is running. The right magneto can be a direct
drive type, firing the top plugs.
I consider an impulse magneto to be an important safety feature that
makes starting much easier. For added safety, I have incorporated a
pair of toggle type ignition switches on the right side just behind
the firewall where they are handy when swinging the propeller from the
rear. They are connected in parallel with the switches in the cockpit
and will enable you to kill the engine at any time.
Hope this helps.
Graham
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Craig R. Lawler wrote:
> Are any of you using impulse mags? I just have the old bendix's and
> starting is OK, but.
>
> Craig
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Craig R. Lawler wrote:
>
> Ernie,
>
> I used RC Monocoat for my gap seals. Any hobby shop should have an
> assortment of colors. It's tougher than the recomened scotch tap
> works great. I even found a color that matched. Used fabric cement
> and just glued them up under the alerons.
>
> Craig
Thanks Craig. I will check out the hobbie shops in corpus christi to see
if i can locate some . By the way does it come in different weights or
thiskness or does one size fit all?. Ernie Hagness
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Anyone out there?
>
> Stevee
Yes, been real quiet lately. Hasn't it?
I have an extended fuselage coming along nicely. My shop has been
too cold to do much gluing this winter. With the current easing of the
cold weather, I'm just starting to make progress again.
The following is cut from a message I sent to Mike Brusilow before
Christmas. Got no reply... maybe someone else can help:
Wow, it only took me five months to put the pieces together. Here's
how it went...
At Brodhead last summer I found one Air Camper with proportions that
somehow looked "just right". Took several photos. That was Mr.Sam.
Issue 54 of the BPA newsletter just arrived. There on page 5 was Mike
Brusilow's Air Camper, and looks like it says Mr.Sam on the side!
photo of Mike Brusilow and brought up the photo. Looks like Mr.Sam in a
slightly early rendition. Decided to send E-mail to you(Mike) to
inquire...
and found the E-mail address is N687MB. Hmmm, back to my original
photos and there on the tail is N687MB.
All that to say I have several questions about Mr.Sam!
1. What wheels and tires are those? Are they up around the 19x9 size
recommended on the Air Camper plan set?
2. Are you pleased with the performance of this diameter tire?
3. I think I see a brake line in one of my photos. Do you use brakes,
and are you pleased with them?
4. I've seen a fair amount of discussion regarding location of the
wheels. I can sum it up, as best I recall, like this: a) the original
plans show a location satisfactory for use without brakes, b) the
improved (or later) Air Camper was built with the wheels moved ahead 7"
and proved too far forward even with brakes, and c) I believe I have
seen recommendation that the wheel be located 3-4 inches ahead of the
original location when used with brakes. Do you know where your wheel
location is within this range? And do you feel the location is about
right?
5. My plans show the pilot and passenger "Cowl Supports" sitting 9"
above the upper longerons. Does Mr.Sam keep this dimension over the
front end, or is the forward Cowl Support lowered to give a bit more
tapered profile to the nose?
Regards,
Dick Winkel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shall(at)mail.vt.edu (F.Spencer Hall) |
Please take me off of the Piet email list. Thanks shall(at)mail.vt.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: direct drive inline 4s |
I've had this idea for a while of building a Piet with an inline
4 that would be newer than a model A. The engine I had in mind
is the NAPS-Z engine used in Nissan light trucks in the mid 80s.
It's about 2 litres with a thin iron/alloy block, aluminum heads,
forged alloy crank, duplex chain cam drive, and the best feature;
DUAL IGNITION.
Yup, two plugs per cylinder. The stock system has an 8-wire
distributor. You could install a vertex mag in the distributor
hole for one set of plugs and possibly adapt a mag drive off
the camshaft end to run the other set. No electrical system
necessary.
It would be interesting to see the power curve for this motor. If
it could be made to make 60-70 hp at 2700 rpm direct drive, and
weigh no more than the model A, that could be just the ticket.
Anybody else with similar ideas?
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Ernest Hagness wrote:
Craig R. Lawler wrote:
>
> Ernie,
>
> I used RC Monocoat for my gap seals. Any hobby shop should have a=
n
> assortment of colors. It's tougher than the recomened scotch tap
> works great. I even found a color that matched. Used fabric cemen=
t
> and just glued them up under the alerons.
>
> Craig
Thanks Craig. I will check out the hobbie shops in corpus christi t=
o
see
if i can locate some . By the way does it come in different weights
or
thiskness or does one size fit all?. Ernie Hagness
Steve here. I have been building models for the past 15 years and
MonoKote comes in about 50 colors, but only one thickness. It is thi=
n
tough and light. It does brittle in cold weather and will shatter in
some cases. (ie high speed impact while attached to a model
airplane--something about which I=A0have only *heard* about :)) reme=
mber
to remove the plastic backing before appilication. There is also man=
y
thin fabric coverings for aircraft that also come in colors that migh=
t
match you paint. I have used these with success covering as well.
Steve e.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: direct drive inline 4s |
John Kahn wrote:
I've had this idea for a while of building a Piet with an inline
4 that would be newer than a model A. The engine I had in mind
is the NAPS-Z engine used in Nissan light trucks in the mid 80s.
It's about 2 litres with a thin iron/alloy block, aluminum heads,
forged alloy crank, duplex chain cam drive, and the best feature;
DUAL IGNITION.
Yup, two plugs per cylinder. The stock system has an 8-wire
distributor. You could install a vertex mag in the distributor
hole for one set of plugs and possibly adapt a mag drive off
the camshaft end to run the other set. No electrical system
necessary.
It would be interesting to see the power curve for this motor. If
it could be made to make 60-70 hp at 2700 rpm direct drive, and
weigh no more than the model A, that could be just the ticket.
Anybody else with similar ideas?
John Kahn
I have been driving nissan pickups for about 10 years and I have had
this same idea. The Z engines seem like a natural fit for airplanes,
but that is just my uneducated opinion. I have had 4 Nissan trucks -3
of them had the dual ignition engine. I though that it was really
cool. The most recent truck that I bought however doesn't have the dual
anymore. I think they changed back in 90'. I'm not sure of the power
curve, but it might be about what you guess.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
Steevee
What's the biggest displacement for those engines anyway?
Figuring on 1/2 hp per cube when turning at 2700 rpm,
an engine (bored out if necessary) at 2.2 litres, having a
truck cam (torque peak probably around 3000rpm) should be
able to make 2.2x61=134 one half of which is 67 hp. Not bad.
Probably about 50lbs heavier than an A65 at least though.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
John Kahn wrote:
Steevee
What's the biggest displacement for those engines anyway?
Figuring on 1/2 hp per cube when turning at 2700 rpm,
an engine (bored out if necessary) at 2.2 litres, having a
truck cam (torque peak probably around 3000rpm) should be
able to make 2.2x61=134 one half of which is 67 hp. Not bad.
Probably about 50lbs heavier than an A65 at least though.
John
My truck has the 2.4 liter in it. I think that is the largest in the
dual ignition version as well.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard L. Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
> I don't understand what you mean by no leading edge. It would be an
> aweful problem if you didn't have a le on a wing. Do you mean there is
> no sheeting? Do you have a 1" spar or a 3/4" spar? As far as tearing
> apart the wing, it sounds like a great deal of work. I know that it
> would be less work in my case to build a whole new wing if I were going
> to build new ribs anyway. With the plywood doublers already in place
> for fittings and such I don't see how you would be able to slide the
> ribs off the wing. I saved about 16 lbs by routing the spars. Mine are
> 1" Douglas fir.
For clairfication - this project is over 30 years in the making. Started
by an EAA Chapter and worked on by at least 2 owners since. The project
has never been completed. As for the wings - there are ribs mounted on
spars period. The spars are full 1" per the plans (obtained from Don
Pietenpol) the are several broken ribs (hangar rash - moves etc.) The
spruce is high quality stamped as certified. The wood is bare - never
varnished or sealed in any way. Spars are straight and true though. I
guess the gussets on the forward part of the ribs is OK and the broken
ribs can be repaired. Is it possible to route the spars between the ribs
or should I forget it?
There is no sheeting shown on the plans from the front spar to the LE
although I understand many builders sheet the upper area. What is used
for sheeting 1/16" ply?
As mentioned previously there is a 65HP Franklin hanging on the fuselage
which is 2" shorter than the short fuselage on the plan. Any problems
here?
Suggestions and comments welcomed.
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services DIvision *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Stevee,
Do you have bendix mags? The points are expensive. About $70 a set.
They seem to work fine though. Everything needs to be just right to
get it to start. I guess these engines all have a different
personality. The manual with the C-65 I bought is very good. If you
need a copy let me know. The condensers are a problem. The new
bendix condensers have been on the shelf forever and don't all work
like they should. A 9-N Ford tractor condenser also works.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Graham,
Kick backs haven't been a problem, but the C-65 is just hard to
start when it's hot. What kind os impulse mags are you using? I got
1/2 hour of flying time in yesterday. I wasn't dressed as warm as I
should have been.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing for life |
Ernie,
I think it's all the same.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing Rebuild? |
Gerard L. Huber wrote:
Steve Eldredge wrote:
> I don't understand what you mean by no leading edge. It would
be an
> aweful problem if you didn't have a le on a wing. Do you mean
there is
> no sheeting? Do you have a 1" spar or a 3/4" spar? As far as
tearing
> apart the wing, it sounds like a great deal of work. I know that
it
> would be less work in my case to build a whole new wing if I were
going
> to build new ribs anyway. With the plywood doublers already in
place
> for fittings and such I don't see how you would be able to slide
the
> ribs off the wing. I saved about 16 lbs by routing the spars.
Mine are
> 1" Douglas fir.
For clairfication - this project is over 30 years in the making.
Started
by an EAA Chapter and worked on by at least 2 owners since. The
project
has never been completed. As for the wings - there are ribs mounted
on
spars period. The spars are full 1" per the plans (obtained from
Don
Pietenpol) the are several broken ribs (hangar rash - moves etc.)
The
spruce is high quality stamped as certified. The wood is bare -
never
varnished or sealed in any way. Spars are straight and true though.
I
guess the gussets on the forward part of the ribs is OK and the
broken
ribs can be repaired. Is it possible to route the spars between the
ribs
or should I forget it?
If it is a simple matter to get the ribs off without breaking them up I
would try it. It is easier for me to route out 16 pounds of wood than
to loose it from my gut. even though I need to.
There is no sheeting shown on the plans from the front spar to the
LE
although I understand many builders sheet the upper area. What is
used
for sheeting 1/16" ply?
If you have the '33 plans look at the rib drawing. It shows it
there,but using something like 9 ply cardboard. I used 1/16 ply with
great results. Aluminum also will work, but hey this *is* a wood
airplane.
As mentioned previously there is a 65HP Franklin hanging on the
fuselage
which is 2" shorter than the short fuselage on the plan. Any
problems
here?
Build it up and find out. you will probably be ok since the wing can
move a few inches to accomidate varying CG's. Fail that
Lead-In-The-Nose works too.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Hi Craig,
At least you are doing SOME flying. This has been a long, miserable winter
in these parts and I have not flown my Piet since last October. Have my
Wag-A-Bond (homebuilt version of the Piper Vagabond) on skis but have
flown it very little. Some winters I have flown the Piet every month, but
it would not have been feasible this winter!
Impulse magnetos do make hot starts a lot safer and easier. On an A65 only
the left mag needs to be an impulse type. I have used the ancient Case,
the Eisemann AM4, Bendix S4RN-21, and Slick at different times over the
years as impulse mags. All worked fine provided they were in good shape to
begin with, and all were available with or without impulse drive.
Unfortunately, most are long out of production and parts are becoming
expensive and difficult to obtain. Slick seems to be the preferred type
since it is compact and light in weight, and is available. Often it is
cheaper to replace an old mag with a new Slick than overhaul it. A kit
consisting of two new Slicks and harness is available from Mattituck in
New York on an exchange basis. While they are not cheap, you get brand
new machinery which enhances safety, efficiency and peace of mind. I
got a kit last year for my Wag-A-Bond because I couldn't repair my Bendix
mags economically any more. (Mattituck places ads in Sport Aviation and
some other publications as well, but if you need their address and phone
number, I'll dig it out.)
Graham
On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Craig R. Lawler wrote:
> Graham,
>
> Kick backs haven't been a problem, but the C-65 is just hard to
> start when it's hot. What kind os impulse mags are you using? I got
> 1/2 hour of flying time in yesterday. I wasn't dressed as warm as I
> should have been.
>
> Craig
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Return to discussion list |
Hey Steve,
thanks for putting me back on the list. I was going through withdrawals
for the last couple of months without it.
Just a quick project update, I have the metal control horns formed but not
welded yet.
Ribs going together, 20 complete 8 left. I'm using Aerolite for the ribs.
Some people ask me "Why are you using Aerolite; the Australian's
banned it's use?" My response to that is: My airplane will never fly in
Australia!
Regards, and thanks again.
Greg Cardinal
Minneapolis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | Archives of past messages? |
Are there archives of this list somewhere? I would love to have them.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dick Dery <dickdery(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet list and cap screws |
I went to my local GM dealer to inquire about the cap screws
>used to attach the Prop hub to the Corvair engine, and was told that the
>part # is no longer valid. Would you happen to know what the new part number
>is, or where I might obtain suitable replacement screws? Thanks.>>
>That's an excellent question for the newsletter. Maybe you could find the
>answer from:
>Vitalis "Vi" Kapler (1033 Forest Hills Dr., SW, Rochester MN 55902)
> 507-288-3322
I contacted Mr. Kapler as you suggested. He recommended either the Corvair
Underground
(1-800-825-VAIR) or Clark's Corvair Parts(413-625-9776)for the capscrews.
Since the Corvair Underground is about 25 miles from where I live I was able
to obtain the capscrews there.
Things to think about:
The owner of the Corvair underground asked me whether my 'vair was a manual
or automatic transmission. After I gave him my most sincere "Huh?", I
confessed what I was doing with the engine. I learned that Chevrolet used 2
different(noninterchangeable) bolt types. The capscrews mentioned in the
plans apparently are for the manual transmission engines.
He DOES NOT have the bolts used in the automatic transmission. I bought a
set, hoping I'd be lucky. I was.
I didn't contact Clark's, so I don't know what their supply situation is.
Anyway:
(6) 1.0-11/32 capscrews Corvair Underground catalog #U-1165 $1.25 ea( I
don't think they come in a set).
BTW Mr. Kapler said that if these were not available, the flange could be
drilled for a 3/8x24 thread for a standard AN bolt. I presume he would
modify the prop hubs he fabricates to accomodate this.
On a related note, Precision Aerial Services in Florida reports in their
Corvair modification manual that Clark's Corvair does have flanges drilled
to take the 3/8x24 bolts.
Corvair Underground
1-800-825-VAIR
PO Box 339
Dundee, OR 97115
Clark's Corvair Parts
1-413-625-9776
Rt 2 #400
Shelburne Falls, MA 01370
Precision Aerial Services
1-904-761-4122
1-904-788-0150(Fax)
207-2 Cessna Blvd.
Daytona Beach, FL 32124
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | Archives of these messages |
If anyone on this list is archiving the messages for there own use, could
they kindly send me a copy? I would appreciate it very much. I posted
recently asking if they are archived, but received no response, so I assume
the answer is no.
Thanks.
Dave
BTW, my mail program handles attachments.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Return to discussion list |
Hi Greg,
Glad I'm not the only "crazy" one. I am using the aerolite glue because it
has had a tried and proven reputation. The hardest thing so far was to
decide on which glue to use!. I am taking precautions though, and am very
careful to plan the gluing sequence, and double check the glue and catalyst
are where they should be. Efforts have been very positive so far. I also
asked Transport Canada for a ruling on acceptability before starting. They
gave it in writing, so if the regulations up here change, I can avoid the
flap.
> From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Return to discussion list
> Date: Wednesday, March 05, 1997 12:35 PM
>
> Hey Steve,
> thanks for putting me back on the list. I was going through withdrawals
> for the last couple of months without it.
> Just a quick project update, I have the metal control horns formed but
not
> welded yet.
> Ribs going together, 20 complete 8 left. I'm using Aerolite for the ribs.
> Some people ask me "Why are you using Aerolite; the Australian's
> banned it's use?" My response to that is: My airplane will never fly in
> Australia!
>
> Regards, and thanks again.
>
> Greg Cardinal
> Minneapolis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | Re: Return to discussion list |
Ian,
Why did you pick aerolite over some of the other adhesives, such as T-88?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Return to discussion list |
Hi,
> Hi Greg,
> Glad I'm not the only "crazy" one. I am using the aerolite glue because it
> has had a tried and proven reputation. The hardest thing so far was to
> decide on which glue to use!. I am taking precautions though, and am very
> careful to plan the gluing sequence, and double check the glue and catalyst
> are where they should be. Efforts have been very positive so far. I also
> asked Transport Canada for a ruling on acceptability before starting. They
> gave it in writing, so if the regulations up here change, I can avoid the
> flap.
Here in Calgary, the hot item in adhesives is Timbertix. I understand that it
goes by the name Gorrilla Glue in the States. It's a single part glue that
uses the moisture in the air and wood as a catalyst. Of course, using water as
a catalyst is different from being water soluable. It's like epoxy when it
sets being very hard and it doesn't react to anything we've thrown at it so
far. The neat thing is that the excess glue "bubbles" out from the joint
forming a substance like an extremely hard foam that's easily sanded off. The
local Transport Canada has endorsed the use of it on homebuilts.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
Roger Mann, of Ragwing Aviation, highly recommends gorilla glue. Swears by
the stuff.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gorilla Glue |
dswagler wrote:
Roger Mann, of Ragwing Aviation, highly recommends gorilla glue.
Swears by the stuff.
I know that a lot of my furniture-making friends have great things to
say about it, for things like building workbenches. Seems pretty
tough. (Oooh, that sounded informed, Steve...)
Since I'm thinking that I might actually start building pieces of
this danged thing within the next decade, I'd be interested in
hearing more about what kinds of glues y'all have used or are using,
since that's one of the bajillion things I'll be learning about over
the next whenever...
Cheers,
-Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
Has anybody ever designed a set of metal spars for the Piet/Grega
for those who may have trouble getting spar grade spruce planks?
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Hi John,
Quite a few years back, I recall reading that someone used extruded
aluminum spars identical to those used on the Piper J-3... except for
length, of course. I believe he also used the USA 35 B airfoil that
was used on many Pipers instead of the Pietenpol airfoil.
There was a Pietenpol with shortened Cub wings in Saskatchewan ad-
vertised for sale 2 or 3 years ago, but I don't know whether the
spars were of spruce or aluminum.
Piper spar extrusions were, and probably still are, available from
Univair. Likely, they are no more expensive than aircraft quality
spruce.
You can get spar grade spruce from Western Aircraft Supplies in
Calgary. I have seen his spruce and it is excellent. Not cheap,
though. Cheers,
Graham Hansen
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, John Kahn wrote:
> Has anybody ever designed a set of metal spars for the Piet/Grega
> for those who may have trouble getting spar grade spruce planks?
>
>
>
> John Kahn
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Gorilla Glue |
Steve Pugh wrote:
>
> dswagler wrote:
> Roger Mann, of Ragwing Aviation, highly recommends gorilla glue.
> Swears by the stuff.
>
> I know that a lot of my furniture-making friends have great things to
> say about it, for things like building workbenches. Seems pretty
> tough. (Oooh, that sounded informed, Steve...)
>
> Since I'm thinking that I might actually start building pieces of
> this danged thing within the next decade, I'd be interested in
> hearing more about what kinds of glues y'all have used or are using,
> since that's one of the bajillion things I'll be learning about over
> the next whenever...
>
> Cheers,
>
am doing some repairs on my aircamper and have T-88 glue that I was
planning to use but am interested in trying gorilla glue instead since
it is one part. What are some sources for gorilla glue. I have not seen
and ad in any of the major publications for it. Ernie in South Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Return to discussion list |
I did a serious study of Aerolite, Timbertix, T-88, resorcinol etc. I
actually did some tests on all of them, and ruled out resorcinol on high
clamping pressure, mess, and lack of gap filling capability. T-88
disqualified itself by an oven test where at 150F, the glue softened
significantly, and at 175F there was some evidence of glue line failure.
The Timbertix was not recommended by a national research foundation
(privileged info).
That left aerolite with a caution to get the hardener on one side and glue
on the other, ie detailed gluing procedures, plus a good reputation on
mosquito bombers in the second world war...they go a little faster than the
Piet. The glue joints cannot be boiled, but I have no intention of doing
that. I have a nice table in my constructors log that I developed if you
want it. Transport Canada gave the OK to both aerolite and T-88. Hope this
helps. any comments would be appreciated.
> From: dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Return to discussion list
> Date: Thursday, March 06, 1997 14:56 PM
>
> Ian,
>
> Why did you pick aerolite over some of the other adhesives, such as T-88?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Return to discussion list |
Ken, I got into a major testing lab in the US and they do not recommend it
(unofficially). It would be nice if this info could get to the EAA, as they
are also cautious. I would have liked to use it, but....
> From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Return to discussion list
> Date: Thursday, March 06, 1997 15:02 PM
>
> Hi,
>
> > Hi Greg,
> > Glad I'm not the only "crazy" one. I am using the aerolite glue because
it
> > has had a tried and proven reputation. The hardest thing so far was to
> > decide on which glue to use!. I am taking precautions though, and am
very
> > careful to plan the gluing sequence, and double check the glue and
catalyst
> > are where they should be. Efforts have been very positive so far. I
also
> > asked Transport Canada for a ruling on acceptability before starting.
They
> > gave it in writing, so if the regulations up here change, I can avoid
the
> > flap.
>
> Here in Calgary, the hot item in adhesives is Timbertix. I understand
that it
> goes by the name Gorrilla Glue in the States. It's a single part glue
that
> uses the moisture in the air and wood as a catalyst. Of course, using
water as
> a catalyst is different from being water soluable. It's like epoxy when
it
> sets being very hard and it doesn't react to anything we've thrown at it
so
> far. The neat thing is that the excess glue "bubbles" out from the joint
> forming a substance like an extremely hard foam that's easily sanded off.
The
> local Transport Canada has endorsed the use of it on homebuilts.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I purchased thw spar and package from Western Spruce. No problems, and cut
to dimension. Saved me a lot of time. On time delivery and flawless!
> From: grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Metal spars
> Date: Thursday, March 06, 1997 22:38 PM
>
> Hi John,
>
> Quite a few years back, I recall reading that someone used extruded
> aluminum spars identical to those used on the Piper J-3... except for
> length, of course. I believe he also used the USA 35 B airfoil that
> was used on many Pipers instead of the Pietenpol airfoil.
>
> There was a Pietenpol with shortened Cub wings in Saskatchewan ad-
> vertised for sale 2 or 3 years ago, but I don't know whether the
> spars were of spruce or aluminum.
>
> Piper spar extrusions were, and probably still are, available from
> Univair. Likely, they are no more expensive than aircraft quality
> spruce.
>
> You can get spar grade spruce from Western Aircraft Supplies in
> Calgary. I have seen his spruce and it is excellent. Not cheap,
> though. Cheers,
>
> Graham Hansen
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, John Kahn wrote:
>
> > Has anybody ever designed a set of metal spars for the Piet/Grega
> > for those who may have trouble getting spar grade spruce planks?
> >
> >
> >
> > John Kahn
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gorilla Glue |
Western Aircraft supply in Calgary supplies it. I also have two tubes,
unopened that I will let you have for a good price.
> From: Ernest Hagness <ehagness(at)ns.interconnect.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Gorilla Glue
> Date: Friday, March 07, 1997 7:36 AM
>
> Steve Pugh wrote:
> >
> > dswagler wrote:
> > Roger Mann, of Ragwing Aviation, highly recommends gorilla glue.
> > Swears by the stuff.
> >
> > I know that a lot of my furniture-making friends have great things to
> > say about it, for things like building workbenches. Seems pretty
> > tough. (Oooh, that sounded informed, Steve...)
> >
> > Since I'm thinking that I might actually start building pieces of
> > this danged thing within the next decade, I'd be interested in
> > hearing more about what kinds of glues y'all have used or are using,
> > since that's one of the bajillion things I'll be learning about over
> > the next whenever...
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> am doing some repairs on my aircamper and have T-88 glue that I was
> planning to use but am interested in trying gorilla glue instead since
> it is one part. What are some sources for gorilla glue. I have not seen
> and ad in any of the major publications for it. Ernie in South Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
Ian
If I may ask, how much was the spruce package you got
from Western? Was that all the longerons, cap strips
and spars cut to dimension? Also what was the
shipping cost?
There are local suppliers here in Ontario, but the
availability of lumber seems spotty.
Thanks
John Kahn
Bombardier Inc.
Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca> |
Hi,
I have to agree here, Western Aircraft Supplies here in Calgary is a good
place to look. Thier number is (403)275-3513.
> I purchased thw spar and package from Western Spruce. No problems, and cut
> to dimension. Saved me a lot of time. On time delivery and flawless!
>
> ----------
> > From: grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Subject: Re: Metal spars
> > Date: Thursday, March 06, 1997 22:38 PM
> >
> > You can get spar grade spruce from Western Aircraft Supplies in
> > Calgary. I have seen his spruce and it is excellent. Not cheap,
> > though. Cheers,
> >
> > Graham Hansen
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, John Kahn wrote:
> >
> > > Has anybody ever designed a set of metal spars for the Piet/Grega
> > > for those who may have trouble getting spar grade spruce planks?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Kahn
> > >
> >
Hope this helps,
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | Western Aircraft |
Could someone email me the phone number of Western Aircraft Supply? I
printed it, then deleted it, but there was a LAN malfunction and I never
got the printout.
Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Western Aircraft |
Hi,
> Could someone email me the phone number of Western Aircraft Supply? I
> printed it, then deleted it, but there was a LAN malfunction and I never
> got the printout.
>
> Thanks.
Sure, it's (403) 275-3513.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gorilla Glue and Brodhead '97 |
> > Since I'm thinking that I might actually start building pieces of
> > this danged thing within the next decade, I'd be interested in
> > hearing more about what kinds of glues y'all have used or are using,
> > since that's one of the bajillion things I'll be learning about over
> > the next whenever...
> am doing some repairs on my aircamper and have T-88 glue that I was
> planning to use but am interested in trying gorilla glue instead since
> it is one part. What are some sources for gorilla glue. I have not seen
> and ad in any of the major publications for it. Ernie in South Texas
I'm pretty sure that most bigger woodworking suppliers would have it,
there's a Woodcraft in San Antonio (could be really far away, but I'm
from California, so everything in another state is close to
everything else in that state as far as I know :-) Might even be
found at some of the bigger home-improvement stores, I dunno.
On a completely unrelated note, I don't think my sorrowful plea made
it onto the list before, so I'll ask again if anyone's planning to go
to Oshkosh and Brodhead this year - I'm going to Oshkosh and am
looking for someone I can bum a ride off from OSH to Brodhead on
Friday or Saturday (I'm going with my boss, and he's not as into
Piets, besides I'm not sure if he wants to take his Yak into a little
grass strip ;-)
If anyone can offer any help (or places to look; I've already checked
with Grant at the BPA, he indicated that it shouldn't be impossible
to find someone at OSH, but I wanted to pre-empt if possible)
Cheers,
-Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
The package ran about $1700 US as I recall. It included all wood except ply
and the white ash required. Capstrips were cut to dimension, as were
longerons and leadind/trailing edges. Only a light planing was required on
the larger members. i did not touch the capstrips other than to cut to
length. Spars were dimensioned and cut to length, but not routed. 3/4 "
thick and three piece wing only option. Shipping cost from Calgary to
Thunder Bay was $100 plus change. Whole thing was packaged in two sauna
tubes 12 feet long and 14feet long.Delivery from order placement to arrival
was about 2 weeks. Any thing else, you can come at me at
Iholland@microage_tb.com, or continue on the open line.
> From: John Kahn <jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Metal spars
> Date: Friday, March 07, 1997 8:54 AM
>
> Ian
>
> If I may ask, how much was the spruce package you got
> from Western? Was that all the longerons, cap strips
> and spars cut to dimension? Also what was the
> shipping cost?
>
>
> There are local suppliers here in Ontario, but the
> availability of lumber seems spotty.
>
> Thanks
>
> John Kahn
> Bombardier Inc.
> Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Gorilla Glue |
Ian Holland wrote:
>
> Western Aircraft supply in Calgary supplies it. I also have two tubes,
> unopened that I will let you have for a good price.
>
> ----------
> > From: Ernest Hagness <ehagness(at)ns.interconnect.net>
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Subject: Re: Gorilla Glue
> > Date: Friday, March 07, 1997 7:36 AM
> >
> > Steve Pugh wrote:
> > >
> > > dswagler wrote:
> > > Roger Mann, of Ragwing Aviation, highly recommends gorilla glue.
> > > Swears by the stuff.
> > >
> > > I know that a lot of my furniture-making friends have great things to
> > > say about it, for things like building workbenches. Seems pretty
> > > tough. (Oooh, that sounded informed, Steve...)
> > >
> > > Since I'm thinking that I might actually start building pieces of
> > > this danged thing within the next decade, I'd be interested in
> > > hearing more about what kinds of glues y'all have used or are using,
> > > since that's one of the bajillion things I'll be learning about over
> > > the next whenever...
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > am doing some repairs on my aircamper and have T-88 glue that I was
> > planning to use but am interested in trying gorilla glue instead since
> > it is one part. What are some sources for gorilla glue. I have not seen
> > and ad in any of the major publications for it. Ernie in South Texas
Ian. I am interested in obtaining your two tubes of gorilla glue. What
is your U>S> price?. Including shipping costs to Portland, Texas. My
snail Mail address is Ernie Hagness ,2337 Willow Drive Portland, Texas
,78374
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
>Craig,
>
>For added safety, I have incorporated a
>pair of toggle type ignition switches on the right side just behind
>the firewall where they are handy when swinging the propeller from the
>rear. They are connected in parallel with the switches in the cockpit
>and will enable you to kill the engine at any time.
>
Hi Graham,
Nice to see your comments. Do I understand that the toggle switches are on
the outside of the plane? Any problem with water (or snow)?
Been the nicest winter we have ever had. Only wish a certain Luscombe were
down here to enjoy it.
Smile, spring is just around the corner.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
>Graham,
>
>Kick backs haven't been a problem, but the C-65 is just hard to
>start when it's hot.
Craig,
Here are a couple of ways I have learned to do a hot start.
1) Open the throttle 1/2, pull through hard and retard the throttle as soon
as it starts.
or, 2) Mags off, open throttle all the way, pull through hard 3 or 4 times.
Close throttle, mags on and pull through. It should start.
I have used both methods successfully down here in HOT south Florida.
Maybe someone else has another method to suggest.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Graham,
I have my mag switchs on the right side on the Inst. panel for the
same reason. I still haven't started it without tying it to a post
or something. Maybe it's always best anyway. Got about an hour in
yesterday. I tried out a 1930's leather flying helmet a friend gave
me. Looks neat, but it's cold. I think i'll go back to my ski hat.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Ted,
Yesterday I stopped for gas and spent 15min getting it going again.
The system that worked was, Flood it till it fires and kicks back.
Then turn the mags off and open the throttle, pull 3 blades. Then
start it with the throttle cracked.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Hi Craig,
I envy you guys being able to fly open cockpit stuff this time of year.
You may have told me, but I can't remember where you live.
You really sould try to get an impulse magneto; it will make your life
a lot easier and safer...especially during hot starts.
Cheers,
Graham
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Craig R. Lawler wrote:
> Graham,
>
> I have my mag switchs on the right side on the Inst. panel for the
> same reason. I still haven't started it without tying it to a post
> or something. Maybe it's always best anyway. Got about an hour in
> yesterday. I tried out a 1930's leather flying helmet a friend gave
> me. Looks neat, but it's cold. I think i'll go back to my ski hat.
>
> Craig
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
>Graham,
>
>I have my mag switchs on the right side on the Inst. panel for the
>same reason. I still haven't started it without tying it to a post
>or something. Maybe it's always best anyway. Got about an hour in
>yesterday. I tried out a 1930's leather flying helmet a friend gave
>me. Looks neat, but it's cold. I think i'll go back to my ski hat.
>
>Craig
>
Ski hat? How does that work? What is a "ski hat"? I am interested because
I was thinking of getting a leather helmet because the cotton one gets a
little cool down here sometimes. (like today when I climbed to 7000' to
watch the sunset - I have to quit doing that on the spur of the moment next
time and not wear a t-shirt).
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
>Ted,
>
>Yesterday I stopped for gas and spent 15min getting it going again.
>The system that worked was, Flood it till it fires and kicks back.
>Then turn the mags off and open the throttle, pull 3 blades. Then
>start it with the throttle cracked.
>
>Craig
>
Sounds good. Just make sure to tie that tail down!!!
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Graham,
We are in Pa and it is still a little cold. This winter has been
extra warm though.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Ted,
Your local Kmart must not carry this cold weather stuff we have in
Pa. A ski hat is just a knit hat that is woven tight so the wind
doesn't come through. Polar Fleece is good stuff too. We are down
hill snow skiers so we are equiped to keep warm.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Updated homepage with pics |
I have added a few new images to my home page that have been taken since
covering began.
Steve e
check out:
http://UCS.BYU.EDU/UCS/FSA/SDELDRED/steve.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Updated homepage with pics |
Looking gooood!!!!
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Updated homepage with pics
> Date: Tuesday, March 11, 1997 11:28 AM
>
> I have added a few new images to my home page that have been taken since
> covering began.
>
> Steve e
>
> check out:
>
> http://UCS.BYU.EDU/UCS/FSA/SDELDRED/steve.htm
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Updated homepage with pics |
>Looking gooood!!!!
>
>I second this Ian Holland Looking gooood !!!
Mike C, Beautiful, but not Naples, FL, Clev OH
>> From: Steve Eldredge
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: Updated homepage with pics
>> Date: Tuesday, March 11, 1997 11:28 AM
>>
>> I have added a few new images to my home page that have been taken since
>> covering began.
>>
>> Steve e
>>
>> check out:
>>
>> http://UCS.BYU.EDU/UCS/FSA/SDELDRED/steve.htm
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lutz Gebhardt <lutz.gebhardt(at)studbox.uni-stuttgart.de> |
| Subject: | Re: Archives of these messages |
Dear Dave,
I should have most of the mails since, puh, I think shortly after startup
of the list. There might be some missing from December and January, as I
omehow got kicked out of the list when it was all mixed up. As the mails
are in one file with other private mails, I'll dig them out and send them
to you in the next days. I am quite busy working on my study thesis, but
they WILL get to you.
I am glad that there is life again in the list. I already thought it had
dried up completely.
Best Regards,
Lutz Gebhardt
(lutz.gebhardt(at)studbox.uni-stuttgart.de)
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil wrote:
> If anyone on this list is archiving the messages for there own use, could
> they kindly send me a copy? I would appreciate it very much. I posted
> recently asking if they are archived, but received no response, so I assume
> the answer is no.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dave
>
> BTW, my mail program handles attachments.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | I need a primer for a-65 |
Soon I will have everything together for my fuel system but I am still
lacking two things. If you have a solution for either of these areas
please post a response. I am looking for a primer unit, and a fuel site
gauge solution. Aircraft Spruce has the "Stearman type" gauge on
indefinate backorder, and the ACS primer is almost 60 bucks!
I have had suggestions about using a snowmobile primer and wonder what
else has been used with success.
Stevee.
BTW I am going with the latex covering procedure as outlined in the
sport aviation article mentioned here a while back. The fuse is flat
black and back on the gear. I 've got to put everything back together
again to make sure I have everything right before the cover goes on the
wings. One note of success is that my holes line up with the cables
that pass through the fuse skin on the way back to the tailfeathers!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Latex covering and list archives |
Steve E. wrote:
> BTW I am going with the latex covering procedure as outlined in the
> sport aviation article mentioned here a while back. The fuse is flat
> black and back on the gear. I 've got to put everything back together
> again to make sure I have everything right before the cover goes on the
> wings. One note of success is that my holes line up with the cables
> that pass through the fuse skin on the way back to the tailfeathers!
Sounds like things are going great guns for ya! Glad to hear that
stuff lines up, I'd hate to be around to hear the dialogue if they
didn't ;-)
BTW, nice update to the Web page (I know I'm late in saying so, but
what the heck..)
This latex covering sounds interesting - even though I'm a billion
hours away from that (gotta start wing ribs first), I'd be interested
if someone could point me toward that article - Does that previous
offer for archives of the list still stand? I only joined the list
last autumn, and am curious what I missed). Thanks!
Cheers,
-Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Soon I will have everything together for my fuel system but I am still
> lacking two things. If you have a solution for either of these areas
> please post a response. I am looking for a primer unit, and a fuel site
> gauge solution. Aircraft Spruce has the "Stearman type" gauge on
> indefinate backorder, and the ACS primer is almost 60 bucks!
>
> I have had suggestions about using a snowmobile primer and wonder what
> else has been used with success.
>
> Stevee.
>
> BTW I am going with the latex covering procedure as outlined in the
> sport aviation article mentioned here a while back. The fuse is flat
> black and back on the gear. I 've got to put everything back together
> again to make sure I have everything right before the cover goes on the
> wings. One note of success is that my holes line up with the cables
> that pass through the fuse skin on the way back to the tailfeathers!
Steve.I have a continental A-80 in my Grega Aircamper and a J-3 fuel
tank. With gravity flow and a impulse mag, a couple of flips of the prop
and I am good to go. I find no need for the extra plumbing and expense
of a primer, also have the very reliable fuel gauge of J-3 fame, a wire
on a cork float, again no plumbing , no fuel leaks, and very acurate,
also keeps it very simple . Just a thought for you,others may disagree
as some folks like a lot of dials ,gauges and knobs . Regards. Ernie.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
Steve- If your impulse mag timing is set correctly and your carb is set
up good too, you can skip a primer totally. Primer on our Champ
never worked and we started the engine cold on 25 F days after about
10 pulls thru until you heard fuel sucking around in the air filter.
My Piet 65 is the same. No primer, works fine. MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
Ernest Hagness wrote:
Steve.I have a continental A-80 in my Grega Aircamper and a J-3 fuel
tank. With gravity flow and a impulse mag, a couple of flips of the
prop
and I am good to go. I find no need for the extra plumbing and
expense
of a primer, also have the very reliable fuel gauge of J-3 fame, a
wire
on a cork float, again no plumbing , no fuel leaks, and very
acurate,
also keeps it very simple . Just a thought for you,others may
disagree
as some folks like a lot of dials ,gauges and knobs . Regards.
Ernie.
Thanks Ernie and Mike for the suggestions. I may just do away with the
primer totally. It wouldn't hurt my feelings. I think however that
both of your airplanes have the fuel tank in the forware fuse. Mine is
in the wing. Although a cork on a wire would work I don't think it
would be visible from the cockpit. Quite a pain to find someone to fly
formation just to tell your fuel level. :)
I have a question about inpulse mags. Is an impulse mag different than
a regular mag only by virtue of being set differently? or it there a
physical difference. I have looked at the port side mag to see if I
could tell a difference, but they look the same.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
Steve (Eldredge),
Despite the added complexity of an engine primer, it can sometimes
be a valuable accessory. Many years ago I took my dad for a ride in
a Piper PA 12 Super Cruiser and had the engine lose power shortly
after takeoff with about 200 feet of altitude and not enough room
to land ahead. The engine didn't quit completely but wasn't producing
enough power to keep us in the air, and ran roughly.
I immediately applied carb heat, but that didn't help. To this day,
about 45 years later, I don't know why I did it--but I unlocked the
primer and the engine picked up. By pumping the primer very slowly,
I was able to make an abbreviated circuit and land safely back on
the runway. As we rolled to a stop, the engine quit. I gave it a
couple of shots of prime, and restarted it. We taxied clear of the
runway and did a runup with absolutely no problems! I still don't
know what the problem was, but suspect foreign matter in the fuel
was the culprit. (A check of the fuel revealed nothing and the prob-
lem never came back, but it doesn't take much dirt in a carb to spoil
your day.)
In this instance, I am convinced that the primer saved us from a
nasty situation. Also, I have heard of a couple of other similar
incidents where the primer was effective as a backup fuel supply
to the engine.
Once upon a time I fashioned a wing tank for my Piet but never used it.
The "cork and wire" fuel gauge was incorporated in the fuel cap in the
usual manner, but was bent into a "U" so that it ran back down through
a vertical tube through the tank beside the filler neck. The wire had
a little ball on its end and was to be inside a clear plastic tube that
projected below the tank over the front cockpit in full view of the
pilot at all times. you could make the vertical tube through the tank
of a size that would enable you to slip the plastic tube over it and
secure it with a small clamp. Since the tube through the tank is a part
of the tank, no leakage can occur.
However, I never used this tank and eventually gave it away, so don't
know how the gauge described worked out. Just an idea I thought I'd
pass along anyway.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
>Steve Eldredge wrote:
>>
>> Soon I will have everything together for my fuel system but I am still
>> lacking two things. If you have a solution for either of these areas
>> please post a response. I am looking for a primer unit, and a fuel site
>> gauge solution. Aircraft Spruce has the "Stearman type" gauge on
>> indefinate backorder, and the ACS primer is almost 60 bucks!
>>
>> I have had suggestions about using a snowmobile primer and wonder what
>> else has been used with success.
>>
>> Stevee.
>>
>> BTW I am going with the latex covering procedure as outlined in the
>> sport aviation article mentioned here a while back. The fuse is flat
>> black and back on the gear. I 've got to put everything back together
>> again to make sure I have everything right before the cover goes on the
>> wings. One note of success is that my holes line up with the cables
>> that pass through the fuse skin on the way back to the tailfeathers!
>Steve.I have a continental A-80 in my Grega Aircamper and a J-3 fuel
>tank. With gravity flow and a impulse mag, a couple of flips of the prop
>and I am good to go. I find no need for the extra plumbing and expense
>of a primer, also have the very reliable fuel gauge of J-3 fame, a wire
>on a cork float, again no plumbing , no fuel leaks, and very acurate,
>also keeps it very simple . Just a thought for you,others may disagree
>as some folks like a lot of dials ,gauges and knobs . Regards. Ernie.
>
>
Is a shame that Aircraft Spruce dont have the Stearman dial, I have one that
I am going to use in my 3 axis airplane (GTub). Try to talk to Jerry Aguilar
at Aircraft Spruce, he is VERY patience and always willing to help, just to
make shure that they will continue selling them.
Hold a little. This Dial is worth, in the mean time you can build the wing
tank, the inner part (cork side) has 8" travel. I will put a drain valve in
the bottom of the dial to get the water out of the tank.
Saludos
(almost ready)
EAA Chapter 1039 President ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI legal
ggower(at)informador.com.mx
Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO
Chapala Aerodrome Alt__________ N________ W_______ (when I get a GPS)
"Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en
que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian Taber
(When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard
in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
> From Steve_Eldredge(at)byu.edu Thu Mar 13 11:36:14 1997
> I have a question about inpulse mags. Is an impulse mag different than
> a regular mag only by virtue of being set differently? or it there a
> physical difference. I have looked at the port side mag to see if I
> could tell a difference, but they look the same.
>
> Stevee
Stevee
The impulse is inside the mag. You might call it a spring loaded
dog drive. If the mag is turned over slowly the dogs grab and hold
the armature side. A spring coupling stores torque as the input of the
mag is turned until a certain point where the dogs let go and the spring
coupling snaps the armature of the mag around at high speed to its normal
position. The short high speed spin produces a relatively hot spark. A
secondary effect is that the timing is retarded. Once the mag is driven
at high speed after the engine starts, centrifugal force prevents the
dogs from engaging and the mag is operates normally. The impulse is
built into the mag at the mounting pad. If you have the mag off the
airplane you can turn the input backwards and it will make a ratcheting
click click click.
The coupling is a replacement for the drive gearbox in the front of the
mag and can be installed in any mag. There is no external difference to
visually identify it.
With the mag on the engine, have someone slowly turn over the engine
(switches off) as you put your hand on the mag housing at the base.
As the impulse clicks over you should be able to feel it with your hand.
Should be the left one.
John Kahn
Tech Pubs
Canadair Regional Jet
Bomabardier Inc.
Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
>I have a question about inpulse mags. Is an impulse mag different than
>a regular mag only by virtue of being set differently?
Steve-An impulse mag is physically different by virture of an
internal coulping which disengages itself after your engine
starts and gets above about 3 or 400 rpm. It is the mag you hear
'clicking' while turning over the prop before switch on. Some
planes have none, some one, some both. The implulse mag is
the one you use to start the engine on. If your impulse mag is the
left, you start the engine on L and after she fires go to BOTH.
If both mags are impulse type, then start on BOTH. The impulse
mag retards the spark and does not fire until the #1 cyl. piston is
at the very top of its travel. This keeps the prop from kicking back
on your hands and gives you good 'umpfh' on that piston once it
does fire. After the engine starts, that impulse coupling disengages
and the impulse mag fires happily along at about 28-30 degrees
before top dead center, just like the other non-impulse mag.
(that is for a 65 cont.) I'd bet there are some very experienced
guys reading this who could explain it better and advise you on
how to do it yourself. I thank Don Helmick by me for loaning me
his timing light box and 50 years of experince to help me get it
right. Whew- we've got to keep passing this info down to the
new kids. MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
much good stuff about inpulse mag deleted
Whew- we've got to keep passing this info down to the
new kids. MC
I'll say. Thanks for the information on the mags. This list is great.
I have heard the clicking sound in my mag. I will have to see if I can
feel the difference when I get my engine hung again. I have just
started to reassemble everything after painting the fuse. I imagine
that I must have impulse mags, because this engine has been hand propped
for the last 50+ years.
STevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
Steve,
Could you please tell me which issue of SPORT AVIAYION had the article
on latex finishing of fabric?
Somehow I must have missed that one, and would like to know how it
worked for you. With the sky-high prices of traditional finishes for
aircraft, an affordable alternative would be most welcome.
Graham Hansen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
Steve,
Could you please tell me which issue of SPORT AVIAYION had the
article
on latex finishing of fabric?
Somehow I must have missed that one, and would like to know how it
worked for you. With the sky-high prices of traditional finishes for
aircraft, an affordable alternative would be most welcome.
Graham Hansen
Hang on. I'll get my copy from home during lunch and post it.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
I am finishing my panel and I am looking for a 2-1/2" clock or
chronograph to fit in the panel I have seen several examples but they
are all very expensive and have one "feature" that I cant use. That is
they are plumbed into a 12 or 24 volt electrical system. I would like
to find one that is battery operated. Any leads?
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
I have a couple of questions... I seem to remember having read
somewhere that the wing strut spar fittings shown on the plans are shown
with an incorrect angle. I am building the one piece wing and again it seems
that I read that the splice as indicated on the plans are shown incorrect.
If so, how so?
I guess if I didn't have a four car garage to work in, and had much
less room, I would have gone with the 3-piece wing and wouldn't have these
questions. I KNOW you guys with the 3-piece wings don't have these
questions...right???
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
Gary McArthur wrote:
I have a couple of questions... I seem to remember having read
somewhere that the wing strut spar fittings shown on the plans are
shown
with an incorrect angle. I am building the one piece wing and again
it seems
that I read that the splice as indicated on the plans are shown
incorrect.
If so, how so?
I guess if I didn't have a four car garage to work in, and had
much
less room, I would have gone with the 3-piece wing and wouldn't have
these
questions. I KNOW you guys with the 3-piece wings don't have these
questions...right???
Gary
Gary,
Quit Bragging
With regard to the splice it should be scarf joined instead of butt
joined at an angle and bolted. The improved aircamper plans supplement
from Don Pietenpol has patterns for the lift strut spar fittings. The
new angle can be found by using the same center hole and rotating a
pattern to line up with the lift strut. (somewhre around 30 degrees) I
think mine was about 32 because of my lengthened cabane struts.
Steve e
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Boatright1(at)aol.com |
Steve: Try KlocKit
They have a large selection of batt.-powered quartz models, various bezels,
high
quality, fast delivery and moderate prices.
Good luck, Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: I need a primer for a-65 |
<< Hold a little. This Dial is worth, in the mean time you can build the wing
tank, the inner part (cork side) has 8" travel. I will put a drain valve in
the bottom of the dial to get the water out of the tank. >>
I cut one of these down and re-marked it to fit the Piet tank. My only
problem is I located it in the deepest section area of the tank which also
happens to play havoc with a big guy trying to enter the front cockpit. I
may move it back 8-12" so that access to the front tank is easier.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Cork and wire fuel gauge in wing center section. |
Steve Eldredge,
Further to my message regarding the fuel quantity gauge I installed
in a wing tank many years ago, but never used:
The gauge need not be installed in the filler cap and may be located
where it will not interfere with the passenger in the front cockpit.
A possibility with this in mind would be the side opposite from that
used to enter or exit the front 'pit, being placed as much forward as
possible to get decent readings (i.e. not at the deepest part of the
tank, but as close to it as is feasible).
In this scenario two tubes, a couple of inches (or less) apart run
vertically through the tank; one right through to project outside
on top and bottom and the other through the top only. If the latter
is of a sufficient diameter to allow the float to pass through it,
it could be threaded for a removable cap through which the float wire
would pass. The wire would be bent into a "U" at a point which would
allow sufficient travel, and run back down through the first-mentioned
tube to project from the underside of the wing (this tube could be of a
smaller diameter with a clear plastic sleeve having fuel quantity
markings on it. NOTE: This part could be placed OUTSIDE the tank edge
which would place it even further away from the passenger's head (i.e.
outside the center section altogether), eliminating the making of two
holes through the tank top and bottom and welding a tube in place.
Since a vent would be incorporated in this system, the fuel filler cap
need not be vented.
I hope you can picture this idea (which is all it really is) from the
foregoing description; a picture would be much better, but my antiquated
computer will not hack graphics. Cheers,
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
Hang on. I'll get my copy from home during lunch and post it.
Stevee
Ok here it is. It was Experimenter, not SA.
Sept 1996 Issue. Just in case you don't have it the following is a
readers digest version.
1st. Cover the airframe using the poly fiber process. Their "spiral
bound classroom" ie covering manual is worth the $5 (now $10 as of the
last ad I saw in sport aviation). But do not poly brush the whole
surface of the fabric.
2nd After covering, shrinking, taping, stiching, etc, seal the fabric
with two coats of high quality flat black exterior latex paint. Mike
Fisher recommends TRU-TEST, I used Sherman Williams. Apply with a
quality brush or 4" wide foam brush. 1st coat perpendicular to airflow,
second parallel to it. Brush marks can be minimized by adding a paint
conditioner such as FLOETROL. My recommendation here is to not use a
paint conditioner on the first coat, because those area's that already
have the weave of the fabric filled, ie over tapes and access holes, the
latex has a tendency to crawl rather than stick if your paint is to
thin. I brushed the first coat and plan to spray the second with an
airless sprayer.
3rd Sand entire surface with 600 being careful not to damage the
fabric. Fisher recommends sanding between coats.
4th Apply a light coat of white latex over the black where light colors
will be applied.
5th The final finish Fisher used was Dupont DULUX Automotive Enamel of
your choice of colors. Apply with an HVLP system for best results.
I'm done with the first coat of black on my fuse at this point and have
reassembled my airplane to make sure everything is correct before
covering the wings. I know that Craig Aho has done a similar job on his
airplane that one an award in Arlington(?) It would be great to know
more details about his finish job.
STevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
This latex paint thing sure would fit my budget. Saw Ed Snyder's
Model A powered Piet a few years ago and he used this method
(Fisher Aeroplane) w/Sherwin-Williams or Sears, and it was 8 years
old at the time and still looked like a sprayed-on finish w/ no cracks.
I would enjoy hearing any comments as you guys proceed with this
process. Thanks ! Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
I am curious to know if repairs and patches can be applied to fabric
that has used the subject latex finish. Do we have any first hand
experience in the group?
Dick Winkel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
Has anyone used latex combined with an enamel final coat over a
traditional system which used nitrate and butyrate dopes for the
initial coats, attaching tapes, etc.?
I have seen some jobs where the enamel was applied directly to the
dope finish and they were not particularly successful; peeling and
cracking of the enamel coat often took place. Perhaps a layer of
latex over the doped surface would solve these problems...I don't
know, and was just wondering if someone has experience with this.
Repairing an enameled surface has always been a problem, and I sus-
pect that this system would not avoid it. While a doped surface can
be repaired relatively easily, it is always difficult to match the
old color exactly due to fading, etc. Good quality enamel may not
fade so much as doped finishes...particularly when exposed to a lot
of sunlight.
With good luck and care, one may not have to make many repairs to
finished fabric throughout the life of the cover. "Hangar rash",
accidents and hail storms pose the greatest threat to a fabric cover,
but these will almost always cause more permanent (and expensive)
damage to an aluminum-skinned aircraft.
I hope somebody out there has tried this system so that the rest of
us can benefit from his experience.
Graham Hansen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bottom fuselage skin |
Saw some discussion a while back on an inspection hatch on the bottom skin.
I am at the point of attaching to the frame in the next few days, and got
looking ahead as to what might be an issue.
The way it is on the plans, a guy would have to remove the seats (and/or
stand on his head to service the torue tube, bearings, cotter pins etc.
I am buiding the extended fuselage from Don Pietenpol's plans. Any
dimensions, details or locations that have worked for you would be
appreciated. I can visualize at this time, two small access hatches near
the bearing ends.
Also, any one screwing down the seat bottoms etc, to make easier access if
required?
The plans call for the seat backs to be nailed, why not screws, or bolts
with blind nuts?
Comments or suggestions would sure be appreciated.
Somehow, I hope to get to the fly in this summer, it would sure help!
Best regards,
-=Ian=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lutz Gebhardt <gebhardt(at)iag.uni-stuttgart.de> |
| Subject: | Piet Discussion List Compilation |
Dear Dave,
I have e-mailed my compilation of the Piet List to you. It's
a simple, un-zipped text file of about 1.125 MB. If you do not
get it for some reason (or not complete or what ever), just drop me a
note. It comprises e-mails sent between subscribers to the BPANews
between Feb 8, 1996 and whenever it more or less stopped or got replaced
by the Discussion List and postings to the discussion list from July 10,
1996 to Mar 14, 1997. Missing are whatever was posted between Nov 25,
1996 and Feb 10, 1997.
Regarding your question if am currently building a Piet, (unfortunately)
no. I am a student of aerospace engineering at the University of
Stuttgart, Germany, who is hoping to get done late this year.
Currently I am doing certification computations as my study thesis
for a guy who wants to build the first Wittman Tailwind in Germany.
Since regulations concerning homebuilts are more stringent in Germany,
a builder has to have (normally ...) someone do an aerodynamic and a
stress analyis for the design he wants to built. In this case someone is
me.
I have not yet built nor am I currently building an airplane, as there
is no time left to do such things at the moment. My study thesis keeps
me VERY busy. But once I have the time (and money) to do so, I intend to
build a plane. I have not yet decided on one, but the Tailwind and the
Pietenpol are strong contenders. But who nows?
Greetings,
P.S.: If someone else wants this Discussion list compilation, let me
know. I'd be happy to send a copy to everyone who wants one.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Latex finish for fabric. |
>
>Has anyone used latex combined with an enamel final coat over a
>traditional system which used nitrate and butyrate dopes for the
>initial coats, attaching tapes, etc.?
Graham- I plan to cover a fake (read practice !) center section with
superflight (dacron 1.8 oz) and do the latex fill/primer method, then
shoot it with Dupont Dulux automotive enamel. Just to see.
Don't know anyone who's done the above combination you've
described. I would also really like to hear how some of you guys
are doing with this latex method. Thank you, Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bottom fuselage skin |
Ian,
I just made a "V" on the bottom with two heavy zippers. I can get my
head in to get a good look around at each annual.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bottom fuselage skin |
>
>Also, any one screwing down the seat bottoms etc, to make easier access if
>required?
>
>The plans call for the seat backs to be nailed, why not screws, or bolts
>with blind nuts?
>
-=Ian=-
Our seat bottoms are screwed down. We have cut the back bottom into 1/3s
with only the center fastened down. Each side is hinged so that access can
be had to the box underneath. Good place to store things (as long as they
are made out of styrofoam ). The seat back is also screwed down for
easy removal.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Bottom fuselage skin |
>Also, any one screwing down the seat bottoms etc, to make easier access if
>required?
>
Ian- Frank Pavliga (a registered architect) told me it was a good idea to
make the seat back and or bottom removable- provided you beef up the
framing around the seat back and bottom. The seat back acts as a
stiffening bulkhead from what he says, and you at least want to frame
it in and reinforce it a little before cutting out the inner portion and
making it attach with screws, etc. I framed in both seat back and
bottom and cut out and hinged the pieces at the bottom. It comes
out as one piece and lets lots of room and light in that tail section.
>The plans call for the seat backs to be nailed, why not screws, or bolts
>with blind nuts?
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Graham (and others),
I read in the recent Luscombe Assoc. newsletter a checklist for flying a
Luscombe. One of the things that caught my eye was the idea of opening the
fuel and pulling through with the mags off - followed by turning the fuel
off and mags on for the start. The fuel was turned on again as soon as the
engine started.
I assume that this would apply to any hand propped plane. Have you ever
heard of turning the fuel off for the startup? Is this in case the engine
somehow starts with high revolutions?
Seems like a good idea. What do you think?
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Ted,
Back in the 1960's a friend of mine had his Stinson run away and hit a
Seabee. It was a messy business from both the damage caused and the legal
hassle that resulted. The Stinson's battery was dead, so he hand-propped
it and the throttle was opened a bit too much. 'Nuff said.
He developed the technique you descibed and always said that had the fuel
been shut off he would have been able to keep his plane from hitting the
Seabee because it would have run out of gas first.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
Hmmm Let's see... Open the throttle, make her hot, turn the prop and run
like the devil!
I remember when an old crop dusting friend went to handprop my fathers
T-craft. One prop, two struts, one wing and one pickup truck later he
decided that a good strong rope would have been to his advantage. Mr.
Murphy will win every time, if something can go wrong...
What are some of the methods you guys are using for windshields? I see
flat three piece, curved one piece and a goggles only affair on one. (I
don't care for bug juice that much).
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
> What are some of the methods you guys are using for windshields? I see
>flat three piece, curved one piece and a goggles only affair on one. (I
>don't care for bug juice that much).
>
>Gary
>
Gary,
We have three flat pieces. Simple and seems to work. Easy to replace if
you his a bird or big mosquito.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Elevator / Rudder trailing edge |
Now that I have all the ribs assembled I'm ready to start on the tail
feathers. How is everyone shaping the trailing edge? Is it a known
radius? Or are you just "eyeballing" and shaping it by hand?
Thanks for you help, Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator / Rudder trailing edge |
>Now that I have all the ribs assembled I'm ready to start on the tail
>feathers. How is everyone shaping the trailing edge? Is it a known
>radius? Or are you just "eyeballing" and shaping it by hand?
>
>Thanks for you help, Greg Cardinal
>
Greg- I think the plans show a cross-section of how Bernard P.
faired his trailing edge pieces on the tailfeathers, but in real life just
about everyone fairs them in to their own liking. Anything from
square right off the saw to fully faired can be seen around from my
observations.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator / Rudder trailing edge |
I did mine with a 1/4 round bit in my router mounted in my work bench. I
don't remember the specific size, but the trailing edge shape like the plans
was obtained by using a larger bit than 1/2 the thickness of the t.e. and the
overlap made the appropriate shape. This is difficult to write down in words
but easy to do in practice.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Gary,
I just used screen door plex. from the hardware store. Don Pietenpol
has a pattern he will send you. It's a one piece affair just bent
around. I did use a heat lamp to get them set in the right shape. I
also redid them about 2" higher so the wind doesn't hit my forehead.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator / Rudder trailing edge |
Greg Cardinal wrote:
>
> Now that I have all the ribs assembled I'm ready to start on the tail
> feathers. How is everyone shaping the trailing edge? Is it a known
> radius? Or are you just "eyeballing" and shaping it by hand?
>
> Thanks for you help, Greg Cardinal
I used the "eyeball" method... I'm sure the result is in keeping with
what others are doing. That's what makes each Piet a "one off" special
:)
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
<< I did use a heat lamp to get them set in the right shape. >>
Can you explain in more detail? Did you use a mold or what? What all is
involved in this?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
John,
The plex. I used would bend without heating it, but it looked like
it was stressed a lot so I just warmed up to make it easier to hold
the ends down. I made up a jig to hold the plex in the same curve as
when it is mounted on the aircraft and used a heat lamp on the
center for a couple of hours. I made 3 angle brackets for each
windscreen. Plumbing washers work well for the contact points where
the brackets attach to the plex.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Craig- neat idea with plumbing washers to cushion your windshield
brackets. Thank God for Tony Bingelis' books......he tells how
to work with Plexi vs. Lexan and the pros and cons of each.
The Lexan can be drilled with a regular drill bit and won't crack
like plexi. Lexan can be bent in a sheet metal brake !! I bent
mine in the semi-curve with no heat-- just the brackets to hold
it in shape. (1/8" thick stuff) Cut it with a sabre saw after making
many poster board mock-up templates to see how they looked
and fit my forehead room, etc. Tony says the lexan scratches
easier though. I spent 14 $ and kept the templates in case I need
to make new screens someday. Mike c.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
Tony says the lexan scratches
> easier though. I spent 14 $ and kept the templates in case I need
> to make new screens someday. Mike c.
>
>
Also with Lexan:
Do not let any aromatic solvents get on it, including gasoline.
It does scratch a lot easier, so don't use paper towels to polish it.
Materials that work fine on plexi with make very fine scratches in
Lexan. Get a pack of flannel diapers as windshield polishers. They're
perfect. A friend has a lexan windshield on his HP 14 sailplane, and
it seems to develop scratches with nothing more than a dirty look.
It's so easy to fabricate though, it's probably worth the hassles
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Mike,
I mailed your VCR tape to Bob Boatwright. We might as well make sure
it gets used as much as possible. I got a couple of hours of flying
time in this weekend. I should get it in gear and go to Sun and Fun,
but it lookd like rain down there this weekend.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Mike,
>
>I mailed your VCR tape to Bob Boatwright. We might as well make sure
>it gets used as much as possible.
Craig- Thank you for saving me the re-dubbing time. It sure helps as
I'm in the big push to get this thing in the air before October or so.
I got a couple of hours of flying
>time in this weekend. I should get it in gear and go to Sun and Fun,
>but it lookd like rain down there this weekend.
Wow- You mean fly down in the Piet or Cessna ?
I've never been down there. Is it any good ? I think I'm starting
to get tired of the over-commercialization at Oshkosh--but it still
is the best thing going to date !
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Hi,
Anyone going to Sun n' Fun?
I will be there (without the Piet) from Saturday till Wednesday camping
under a wing at night and looking for a nice Luscombe during the day.
Actually, I have found one but can't get the owner to sell it to me. But, I
keep waiting. Every time I check my e-mail I keep hoping to get a message
telling me it's a deal. Maybe it is getting close. After all, my birthday
is April 13th. I'll just keep my fingers crossed.
Would like to meet some of the people I have been conversing with over the
past year.
Let me know and we can set a time & place to meet or leave messages at a
central location at Sun n' Fun.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
Ted:
in the UL-FLY LIST (for Ultralights) me are going to take a sign (I will
take a gaffete) with UL-FLY and my name in it GARY GOWER I will be glad to
say hello to you,
we will meet at noon in the ARAC tent UL's area
Enjoy S&F
Saludos
Gary Gower
>Hi,
>
>Anyone going to Sun n' Fun?
>
>I will be there (without the Piet) from Saturday till Wednesday camping
>under a wing at night and looking for a nice Luscombe during the day.
>Actually, I have found one but can't get the owner to sell it to me. But, I
>keep waiting. Every time I check my e-mail I keep hoping to get a message
>telling me it's a deal. Maybe it is getting close. After all, my birthday
>is April 13th. I'll just keep my fingers crossed.
>
>Would like to meet some of the people I have been conversing with over the
>past year.
>
>Let me know and we can set a time & place to meet or leave messages at a
>central location at Sun n' Fun.
>
>Ted Brousseau/APF
>nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
>Sunny SW Florida
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Ted
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Fly the plane there and park it next to Allen Wise plane, you;ll have a
crowd within five minutes.
I'm meeting a bunch of people by the Sea Dart at noon every day.
Jim Scroggins
________________________________________________________________________________
Ted
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Fly the plane there and park it next to Allen Wise plane, you;ll have a
crowd within five minutes.
I'm meeting a bunch of people by the Sea Dart at noon every day.
Jim Scroggins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Mike,
I think they are both about the same.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Airspeed Question |
>>Any advice out there about how anyone has installed their airspeed
>probe and static lines ? To simplify things I plan on installing a
>single probe out on the leading edge of the wing and just let the
>static port be open to atmosphere behind the panel.
>Would this work since it is an open cockpit environment or is
>it necessary to run a line from the static port out to another probe
>next to the ram air line ?? Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <mcnarry(at)accnet.assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Airspeed Question |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Airspeed Question |
>>Any advice out there about how anyone has installed their airspeed
>probe and static lines ? To simplify things I plan on installing a
>single probe out on the leading edge of the wing and just let the
>static port be open to atmosphere behind the panel.
>Would this work since it is an open cockpit environment or is
>it necessary to run a line from the static port out to another probe
>next to the ram air line ?? Mike C.
>
I,ve noticed that with the static line disconnected in a Piper PA12
that opening the window caused a significant change in indicated
airspeed. We were even playing around with scooping air into cockpit
by holding our hands at the window opening. this also caused a
change. I'll be interested in knowing what you decide as I haven't
gotten that far along on my aircraft yet. John Mc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airspeed Question |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>>Any advice out there about how anyone has installed their airspeed
>probe and static lines ? To simplify things I plan on installing a
>single probe out on the leading edge of the wing and just let the
>static port be open to atmosphere behind the panel.
>Would this work since it is an open cockpit environment or is
>it necessary to run a line from the static port out to another
probe
>next to the ram air line ?? Mike C.
>
Your plan and logic is the same as mine. It is what I plan on doing.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Thanks for your response on the airspeed/static question. I took a
look at our local grass strip and found every possible combination
of airspeed/static designs on about 10 different planes. Excellent
IA and pilot Don Helmick over there told me to just unport the
static fitting and run a probe out on the wing. Closed cabin planes
are another story. Just about any diameter tubing will work too-
I saw 1/8" up to 3/8" tubing. I'll do a calibration check anywho
after she flies by timing myself back and forth over a known
distance on our farm-square country roads. As long as I can pass
some cars once in a while along the interstate I'll be happy.
(w/a tailwind) Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <mcnarry(at)accnet.assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Thanks for your response on the airspeed/static question. I took a
look at our local grass strip and found every possible combination
of airspeed/static designs on about 10 different planes. Excellent
IA and pilot Don Helmick over there told me to just unport the
static fitting and run a probe out on the wing. Closed cabin planes
are another story. Just about any diameter tubing will work too-
I saw 1/8" up to 3/8" tubing. I'll do a calibration check anywho
after she flies by timing myself back and forth over a known
distance on our farm-square country roads. As long as I can pass
some cars once in a while along the interstate I'll be happy.
(w/a tailwind) Mike C.
Just thinking about it the pressure in the tube will be there as
aresult of the" relative wind". This being the case and the fact that
the smaller the tube the quicker the change in pressure will be
registered at the gauge. Check out you local Highway Tractor repair
shop. The heavy trucks use "Synflex" air lines for controlling air
shifted transmissions and air brake control circuits. This tubing is
strong and light!
John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airspeed Question |
Mike,
I just used the set-up Aircraft Spruce has with the static port on a
separate tube next to the ram air line out on the wing. According my
timing speed and distance at cruise speed it apears to be accurate. At
lower speeds I'm not really sure how close it is. Tony Bingilas has a
some good info in one of his books on plumbing stuff.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
On my Pietenpol I have the pitot tube located on the underside of the
starboard wing about two feet (40% of chord length) aft of the leading
edge. It is a 1/4 inch diameter tube emerging perpendicular to the sur-
face of the wing for about 3 inches and then bent forward to face the
oncoming air. It is patterned after the system used on Piper PA 15/17
Vagabond airplanes and is not subject to getting rain, etc., in it.
Originally I simply left the static port of the ASI open, but found
that airspeed readings varied considerably depending on whether the
front cockpit was occupied or not...or had a cover on it or not. This
problem was solved by extending a piece of plastic hose (1/4 inch ID)
from the static opening of the instrument to the floor area ahead of
the front seat, near the firewall.
I'm sure that experimenting will indicate what is best for your par-
ticular installation.
Graham Hansen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>that airspeed readings varied considerably depending on whether the
>front cockpit was occupied or not...or had a cover on it or not. This
>problem was solved by extending a piece of plastic hose (1/4 inch ID)
>from the static opening of the instrument to the floor area ahead of
>the front seat, near the firewall.
Graham- Interesting. Does your Piet have the backside of the
instrument area open to air, or is there a wood door enclosing it ?
I've got that area covered with a door/magnetic catch.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> As long as I can pass
> some cars once in a while along the interstate I'll be happy.
> (w/a tailwind) Mike C.
You wanna do what?! Maybe you know of some roads with STOP signs on
them, perhaps then you'll do some passing... :)
Gary...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Michael,
Another thing: You mentioned a magnetic catch on the door just ahead of
the instruments. Will it affect your compass? Or is the compass located
somewhere else?
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Michael,
Regarding your query, I never did get around to permanently closing off
the opening just in front of the instruments...and after nearly 27 years
it is still the same as when I built it. One of these days I'll get around
to doing it.
But my experience with four different Pietenpols says that every one will
be different in some way. Temporarily covering the opening you mentioned
with a piece of cardboard didn't seem to make any difference on mine...
which is why I'm in no hurry to make and install a proper cover. The
others all had a cover in this location, but I never flew any of them with
a passenger or front pit cover and can't say how it would have affected
them.
In any case, the system described works fine for me...likely because it
keeps the static opening in a place away from variable air currents; near
the floor just aft of the firewall seems OK on mine. Must be a dead air
region there.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>> As long as I can pass
>> some cars I'll be happy.
>> (w/a tailwind) Mike C.
>
>You wanna do what?! Maybe you know of some roads with STOP signs on them,
perhaps then you'll do some passing... :) Gary...
Gary- Did I mention that was passing cars w/ a tailwind AND during
a descent ??! Ok-what if we level the field and try to pass
some 1933 model cars ?? !! :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty finally delivered on the spars I ordered last
July. Haven't completely unwrapped yet but they look good.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
> Gary- Did I mention that was passing cars w/ a tailwind AND during
> a descent ??! Ok-what if we level the field and try to pass
> some 1933 model cars ?? !! :)
I dunno Mike, some of those 30's autos could move along at a right pert
clip...
Been following the airspeed pitot bit, also the "magnet" behind the
instrument panel, probably you will have answered the question of the
compass in some other message, but... where is the compass relative to
the magnet?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>I dunno Mike, some of those 30's autos could move along at a right pert
>clip...
Gary- good point ! Maybe I'll stick to just sightseeing :)
>Been following the airspeed pitot bit, also the "magnet" behind the
>instrument panel, probably you will have answered the question of the
>compass in some other message, but... where is the compass relative to
>the magnet?
The magnet is small although is at the top curve of my inst.
access door with a round brass plated 'pull-ring' on the outside-pretty
much in line with the compass. Geez.
Seems when I had the fuse in the living room (yes) the compass
pointed West correctly, and now that the plane is in the garage I'll
have too wheel it out tonight and do a four point check.
Glad you guys mentioned this potential problem. If I see any abnormal
errors I'll just yank out that magnet and use velcro. (or like Red Green
on PBS- the handyman's secret weapon: duct tape. )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> Seems when I had the fuse in the living room (yes) the compass
> pointed West correctly, and now that the plane is in the garage I'll
> have too wheel it out tonight and do a four point check.
> Glad you guys mentioned this potential problem. If I see any abnormal
> errors I'll just yank out that magnet and use velcro. (or like Red Green
> on PBS- the handyman's secret weapon: duct tape. )
There shouldn't be any question, if you don't spread around a little
"high speed tape" it won't fly... But then I thought you knew that in
order to achieve lift and proper weight & balance you NEED it...
I imagine the magnet won't be a problem as long as you always head
west...
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
JGreenlee(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Aircraft Spruce and Specialty finally delivered on the spars I ordered last
> July. Haven't completely unwrapped yet but they look good.
>
> John
John;
Did you price around or sole source. And a question I have wondered
since I received my prints, Is the spars 1"x4" dimensional (1x4 rough
cut, planed to 3/4 x 3-1/2) or finished 1"x4"? It sure makes a
difference in price.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
The plans are always full dimension. The original ships had 1" thick spars
routed down to an I beam shape.
BHP's later ships had 3/4" solid spars not routed.
I cannot remember how much I shopped when I originally ordered. It seems
like everyone was pretty competetive. I have heard Wicks has more reliable
delivery.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
I talked to a guy at Spuce and he said they had a
shipment arrive last summer that didn't meet spec and
they sent back, hence the 6 month delay. They seem
to scrounge up batches of mil spec quality wood in just
sufficient quantities. It all comes from the NW BC coast
and Alaska now.
I understand that spars made by laminating 1x1s is actually
stronger and the 1x1 stock is much more readily available.
Anybody tried that?
Also John, how much does a set of front and rear spars
from AS&S cost if I may ask?
John Kahn
Bombardier Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
<< Also John, how much does a set of front and rear spars
from AS&S cost if I may ask?
>>
These were right at 300 bucks plus about 65 bucks for truck freight.
Cheap they ain't....
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
JGreenlee(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Aircraft Spruce and Specialty finally delivered on the spars I ordered last
> July. Haven't completely unwrapped yet but they look good.
>
> John
John;
Another question, Are the spars planed or rough cut? I agree they are a
bit pricey but, this is what you will be hanging in the air by.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
We had our regular monthly pancake breakfast this morning and who should
show up but Micheal Cuy's mother. What a lovely lady. She took pictures of
my Piet and showed me pictures of Micheal's project.
Micheal you are quite a craftsman. I can't wait to see it flying. Good luck.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Square wind screens |
Ernie Hagness,
You requested in BPAN plans for the 3 sided square wind screens. I don't
have plans but do have the three sided wind screens. It wouldn't be that
hard to give you the details of how they are built. Rather straight forward.
Let me know if you still need info.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>We had our regular monthly pancake breakfast this morning...
Ted- Thanks very much for taking some time to visit with my Mom-
She really enjoyed seeing your Pietenpol up close and was kind of
surprised they actually let people walk around the airport and see
other aircraft ! Glad she was able to meet you since she will be
headed back up to Ohio in a few weeks. All the best, Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens |
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
> Ernie Hagness,
>
> You requested in BPAN plans for the 3 sided square wind screens. I don't
> have plans but do have the three sided wind screens. It wouldn't be that
> hard to give you the details of how they are built. Rather straight forward.
>
> Let me know if you still need info.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> Sunny SW Florida
Ted I would appreciate any data you can give me . Tom Paiement is also
searching for this info. Thanks Ernie Hagness
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens -Reply |
>>> Ernest Hagness 04/14/97
07:36pm >>>
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
> Ernie Hagness,
>
> You requested in BPAN plans for the 3 sided square wind screens. I
don't
> have plans but do have the three sided wind screens. It wouldn't be
that
> hard to give you the details of how they are built. Rather straight
forward.
>
> Let me know if you still need info.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> Sunny SW Florida
Ted I would appreciate any data you can give me . Tom Paiement is also
searching for this info. Thanks Ernie Hagness
Ted,
Would you be able to post the information here in the discussion group?
I think there is a high level of interest in 3 sided windshields.
Thanks, Greg Cardinal
Ribs assembled, workin' on the tail
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens |
I am getting to the stage where i will be looking at windscreens pretty
soon. Would also appreciate any thing you've got!
Thanks,
-=Ian=-
> From: Ernest Hagness <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Square wind screens
> Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 21:36 PM
>
> Ted Brousseau wrote:
> >
> > Ernie Hagness,
> >
> > You requested in BPAN plans for the 3 sided square wind screens. I
don't
> > have plans but do have the three sided wind screens. It wouldn't be
that
> > hard to give you the details of how they are built. Rather straight
forward.
> >
> > Let me know if you still need info.
> >
> > Ted Brousseau/APF
> > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> > Sunny SW Florida
> Ted I would appreciate any data you can give me . Tom Paiement is also
> searching for this info. Thanks Ernie Hagness
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens -Reply |
I have a set of 3-sided windshields that I don't need. I'm using a rounded
version on my Piet. I'd be glad to sell the extras.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> |
| Subject: | Ford Escort Powered Piet |
I'm interested in talking to anyone who uses a Ford Escort engine in a
Piet. I'm particularly interested in potential problems with the cogbelt
driven distributor and its potential for slipping out of timing. This
conversion is necessary when the flywheel end is used for the
reduction drive. I'm restoring a wrecked Piet powered by this engine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens |
Ernie,
I am flying out of town for the rest of the week. Will measure and then
post the details this weekend for all to see.
Glad to be able to help.
Ted
>Ted I would appreciate any data you can give me . Tom Paiement is also
>searching for this info. Thanks Ernie Hagness
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens -Reply |
William Conway wrote:
>
> I have a set of 3-sided windshields that I don't need. I'm using a rounded
> version on my Piet. I'd be glad to sell the extras.
William , Please provide me with the details ect.
ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net Thanks .Ernie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Things you might never hear.. |
So I was sitting in the 94th Aero Squadron bar with my boss the other
evening, and we started coming up with some things you're not likely to
hear on the radio:
"Baron 52XY, cleared for takeoff 16 Right, use caution - wake turbulence,
departing Pietenpol."
"SoCal Approach, Air Camper 415HH with you at Flight Level 250."
"Citation 6L, please expedite to the next taxiway, there's a Pietenpol on
one-mile final."
Sorry for the wasted bandwidth....
Cheers,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Construction Manual |
Does anybody have, or has anybody compiled, a "Construction Manual" for
the Piet? Or maybe a "Don't let this happen to you" list? Seems like
the more I study the plans, the more I wonder if I'm interperting them
right.
I'm thinking of building a "proto" type of low-cost pine before cutting
the Spruce and other aircraft grade woods. (Not that the pine will ever
be flown, unless I hear of a democrat, ...nevermind, forget it)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Construction Manual |
Bill,
Grant has a disk with lots of good stuff on about what to do and not to
do. Tony Binglas' books are great too. EAA can get them for you. They
are worth every penny.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Construction Manual |
Craig R. Lawler wrote:
>
> Grant has a disk with lots of good stuff on about what to do and not to
> do. Tony Binglas' books are great too. EAA can get them for you. They
> are worth every penny.
I have Grant's disk, I'll check out the books by Tony Binglas.
Thanks
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Construction Manual |
Bill- Craig Lawler's comment on Tony Bingelis' books are right on.
The three books I've purchased by Tony saved me not only many
major mistakes I would have otherwise made, but returned 50 fold
in money savings by not having to undo-and redo those errors. There
is also more peace of mind knowing you followed some sound
procedures by a homebuilder who is well into his seventies.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | A word of praise for Steve |
You know folks, I was sitting here reading through a lot of interesting
topics, appreciating the quick reponses to my problems, and enjoying
hearing the progress people are making on their planes and it dawned on
me how well the discussion program is working. I know a while back it
was a nightmare, but Steve straighten it out and I just wanted to say
thanks to him for his effort. I know how when things are going well, we
sometimes forget the effort behind the smooth sailing.
I guess what I'm tring to say is Thanks, Steve Eldredge for a job well
done. I enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Bill Talbert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: A word of praise for Steve |
Bill Talbert wrote:
>
> You know folks, I was sitting here reading through a lot of interesting
> topics, appreciating the quick reponses to my problems, and enjoying
> hearing the progress people are making on their planes and it dawned on
> me how well the discussion program is working. I know a while back it
> was a nightmare, but Steve straighten it out and I just wanted to say
> thanks to him for his effort. I know how when things are going well, we
> sometimes forget the effort behind the smooth sailing.
> I guess what I'm tring to say is Thanks, Steve Eldredge for a job well
> done. I enjoy the fruits of your labor.
>
> Bill Talbert
Bill, I was just thinking the same thing prior to reading your message .
The group has become very helpfull and informative as well as a positive
discussion group rather than some of the slammers in the past ,thanks to
steve , michael ,ted b. and others. I look forward to reading the mail
each day now and seeing the posative responses and friendlyness that now
exists, my thanks to all who participate in this. Ernie Hagness
________________________________________________________________________________
Hopefully this list is as much of value to others as it has been to me.
It provideds lots of answers and added satisfaction to the project
comming together in my garage.
SteveE.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Construction Manual |
Bill Talbert wrote:
>
> Craig;
>
> Can you (or anyone) please forward a little more info on the Tony
> Binglas' books you informed me about. I wrote the EAA and they said there
> was not a series by Tony on the Air-Camper. I've pasted they history
> below.
>
>
I have a collection of three paperback books by Tony Bingelis. I can
not imagine anyone building a plane without them on the reference book
shelf. They are:
1. Sportplane Construction Techniques
2. Firewall Forward
3. The Sportplane Builder
The books appear to be collections of the articles that have appeared in
the EAA magazines. They are "generic", not slanted specifically at the
Air Camper. Here is ordering info from inside the cover of one of them:
Order by calling EAA's Toll Free Number
1-800-843-3612 (in US and Canada)
$52.97 for all three.
Major Credit Cards Accepted.
EAA Aviation Foundation, Inc.
Dept. M.O.
P.O. Box 3086
Oshkosh WI 54903-3086
This is all from books I've had 10 years or so... might be out of date.
Get'em, they'll save you the 50 bucks by the time you are done!
Regards,
Dick Winkel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bellissimod(at)cs.lsl.litton.com |
| Subject: | square wind screens |
Hi Ted,
I saw your description of your screen you sent to ernie and tom. It was available
to me just in time. Thanks for the info. I'll be painting sometime in May.
regards, Domenic Bellissimo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Construction Manual |
Bill,
Tony Binglas just wrote a series of books about construction methods,
with a lot of stuff that applies to Piets.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net (Ernest Hagness) |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens |
Ted Brousseau wrote:
>
> Ernie Hagness, Tom Paiement,
>
> Sorry for the delay, but it has been so warm that the mosquitoes came out in
> full force. It was impossible to stand still long enough to get the
> measurments. Fortunately, it finally got windy and I got the details on the
> square windscreens. Here it is:
>
> The front piece starts as a rectangle 12" wide and 8" tall. The bottom is
> cut in a curve to conform with the top of the fuslage.
>
> The side pieces are triangles 8" high to match up with the front piece.
> They are also a straight 8" along the bottom. They are not perfect
> triangles. Rather, they look like the edge that joins the top and bottom is
> cut for a 10" bottom with a slight curve about 5" down the slope to make it
> end at 8". That is probably a lot harder to understand than it really is.
> I can try to draw it if you are interested. The angle where the 8" sides
> meet is determined by the slope of the front piece. It slopes back 4". The
> side pieces are angled out from 12" (where they join the front piece) to 18"
> apart.
>
> There are two metal angle pieces 8" long that hold the side pieces to the
> front. They are made of some aluminum or stainless and are 1/2" on each
> side. There are 3 bolts holding each piece to the metal angle. The whole
> thing is held to the fuslage by little tabs made from 3/4" stock bent to
> match the angle of the plexiglass. There is one at the end of each side
> piece, one at each metal angle where the sides meet the front, and one in
> the middle of the front piece.
>
> The plexiglas is 1/8" thick. There are three rubber trim pieces where the
> plexiglas meets the fuslage.
>
> Hope this helps. Will be glad to explain further if the above is confusing.
>
> Ted Brousseau/APF
> nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
> Sunny SW Florida
Ted , Thanks for the information, I think I can work it ou with the
information you provided. It will have to wait for a tad as I am on my
way to Milwaukee for a few weeks to visit my 90 year old mother and
spend mothers day eith her. Sorry about all them skeeters. We have not
had any for the past couple of years because of no rain , but we have
had quite a bit of rain recently and I know them buggers will be out
soon. Good excuse to fly and try to outrun them. Thanks again. Ernie/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Square wind screens |
>
>Ted , ... Sorry about all them skeeters. We have not
>had any for the past couple of years because of no rain , but we have
>had quite a bit of rain recently and I know them buggers will be out
>soon. Good excuse to fly and try to outrun them.
Outrun them!!! Heck I bring them all back with me on the leading edges and
the prop. I have to polish the prop every week between the bloody skeeters
and the salt build up.
Drop me a line if something doesn't make sense when you put pencil to paper.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Tony Bingelis Books |
Even though most of this info has already been posted, the EAA has
all of Tony's books 1-800-843-3612 or mail PO Box 3086 Osh WI
54903-3086
Sportplane Builders- aircraft construction methods, 324 pages
#21-30140 $21.95
Firewall Forward- engine installation methods, 308 pages
#21-13950 $21.95
Sportplane Construction Techniques- a builder's handbook, 372 pages
#21-01395 $21.95
Tony Bingelis on Engines-practical engine information,
#21-15691 $21.95
postage/handling add 6.50/1 book
or all four books $75.95 plus $12.50.......wisc. res add 5%
You may be able to purchase these books at a better price elsewhere,
but if memory serves me correctly, I think Tony granted rights to the
books to EAA a while ago. Some of the books overlap each other
a bit, but with the great sketches and diagrams and down to earth
writing style, you can't go wrong. Every time I came up with a
' hummm, what do I do at this point, " question, one of Tony's
books had the answer. He just retired 'again' from writing the
monthly section in Sport Aviation entitled 'Homebuilders Corner'.
I went thru all my old EAA mags and ripped out every single article
by Tony, stapled them together and put them in a folder with the
titles of each on the front of the folder. What a treasure of info.
He saved me so many aspirins these past few years. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
Did I ever answer you on this? The spars were planed.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
Good a.m., gentlemen,
Tax season is past, I'm back to work on my ship!
I have all but finished my propeller. It is laminated of oak, pretty much to
Howard Henderson's plans. All that is left is re-balancing it after
varnishing, and polishing out the varnish. I used Epifanes varnish on it.
Wonderful stuff and makes a BEAUTIFUL finish.
I cut out my trailing edges last night. This data might help someone. They
were cut from 3/4" spruce stock. I ripped some sticks 1 3/8" wide. Then I
set the blade angle on my table saw to 12 degrees and the rip fence 3/16"
from the base of the blade. This enabled me split these strips (turned on
edge) into two triangular trailing edge pieces with little waste. I then
simply ripped the skinny side of these strips off to give a total width of 1
1/4". They came out beautifully.
I hope to start covering about June 1. 'All' that is left is to assemble the
wing panels and associated struts and cables. Ha!
See you gentlemen later.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC) |
Hi John Greenlee,
I'm just slightly ahead of you in covering but have yet to complete a
propeller. I read your opening statement on your last letter (dated 30 April
97 ) with interest. You said you" laminated oak for the prop.", What kind of
oak did you use . I wasn't aware that oak could be used for props. Thought
the spaces between the fiberous rings were too wide and contained too much
soft(pith) fiber in between??? Soon I will be attempting my third propeller.
The first, made of rock maple cost about $45.00 and was a disaster. The
second about 5 years later (a great Blank) was used as a practice blank on
the prop. duplicating machine I made . The Maple increased in price to
$145.00 for the same amount of board feet and the duplicating machine cost
about $200.00 to build. It seems hardwood prices are skyrocketing. I'll have
to get busy on one soon though. I will be closing the fuselage starting
this weekend everything else is covered. I have the dope on hand and plan to
start painting within 2 weeks.
Regards,
Domenico Bellissimo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet project |
>Good a.m., gentlemen,
>
>Tax season is past, I'm back to work on my ship!
>
>I have all but finished my propeller. It is laminated of oak, pretty much to
>Howard Henderson's plans.
John,
I am also interested in making a wood prop. I have lots of oak. Where did
you get the plans? Do you use a prop making "machine"?
Thanks,
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
<< Thought
the spaces between the fiberous rings were too wide and contained too much
soft(pith) fiber in between??? >>
Well, you are more studied than I am on this but, let me tell you, there is
nothing soft about any of that oak. What I used is "red oak" which, from
what I have read, is a generic name for a number of species of oak graded by
color.
I got the idea from calling on the owner of an FBO a few years ago. He had a
prop hanging on his wall that came from a 1913 Curtis. It was Oak and a
scimitar shape. Darn, it was neat! Anyway, this one came out reasonably
well.
I built one of those duplicating machines. I had a couple of problems using
it. A longer prop, like for an A, tended to want to shift in its mount when
pressure was applied at a long moment such as at the tip. I solved this
somewhat on the second prop by glueing some 100 grit sandpaper down to the
table in the hub area and then tightened the hub down against the sandpaper.
A better solution I saw in a photograph recently would be to extend the
blank a couple of inches at each tip and bolt the tip with spacers directly
to the table. The tips could then be cut down and shaped by hand, last.
The othef problem was trying to cut too close to finished with the machine.
My first prop got too thin and will likely just become a handsome clock. On
the second prop, I made a concerted effort to leave 1/8 or 1/4" material on
the prop to finish by hand. This worked out better.
In short, I think the duplicator is probably better suited to cut shorter
props like VW designs and more conventional props. The long semi-scimitar
prop is more difficult with the machine. If I make a third prop for the A, I
am considering doing it all by hand. I like the looks of the props Gary
Price made for his ship. The last one was hickory by the way. He has
experimented with a longer prop with less pitch. About 84" long, I think.
Hope to hear from you gentlemen, soon.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet project |
Ted,
See my last post re: machine.
Grant wrote up some nice instructions re: Howard Henderson's props. I got a
drawing from Howard.
I also recommend Eric Clutton's book on prop carving. I think EAA has it.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC) |
John Wrote:
<< I built one of those duplicating machines. I had a couple of
problems...>>
John, I built my table 8 feet long and a sliding center hub section which
could be fixed into position with furniture inserts. This allows me to make
one prop end at a time, up to 72inches per end. All you have to do is switch
ends and keep your center lines in true position. As far as the prop
shifting in it's mount I use the method you described as a a better
solution, by extending the prop. blank and bolting it down to the table
surface.Ii'm going to have a look at some red oak and judge it's
suitability. My experience with oak is limited to furniture making but from
what I can remember it splinters very easily.
Cutting too close to the finish surface is also what I experienced with my
practice blank as well as the set up. I had set up the blank too high in the
first place and did the same when I flipped to the other side. Consequently
the finish product was too thin. I know better now. I will also purchase a
3HP router to better perform the cuts, I found a 1 HP is too week and causes
chatter. Other than these problems I think I'll do much better next time.
Regards.
Domenico Bellissimo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: Ford Escort Powered Piet |
>
>I'm interested in talking to anyone who uses a Ford Escort engine in a
>Piet. I'm particularly interested in potential problems with the cogbelt
>driven distributor and its potential for slipping out of timing. This
>conversion is necessary when the flywheel end is used for the
>reduction drive. I'm restoring a wrecked Piet powered by this engine.
>
>
Try to contact Ed Lubitz elubitz(at)ionline.net
He designed de Convertion, he will gladdly help
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
After an unsuccessful attempt to test run my A-65 last week, I was able
to try again Saturday. Whhoopiiee!! I have a running engine!
Neighbors kidded that I sure had found an expensive way to uproot the
apple tree n my front yard. Upon shutdown I had a standing ovation from
the group gathered down the block. What a thrill. My project has come
to life!
Motivation running high
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | She Runs! -Reply |
Good work, Steve! It motivates all of us. I'm still looking at a pile of sticks
and plywood in my basement but after reading your post I can't wait to
get home and work on it.
Greg C.
>>> Steve Eldredge 05/05/97 09:05am >>>
After an unsuccessful attempt to test run my A-65 last week, I was able
to try again Saturday. Whhoopiiee!! I have a running engine!
Neighbors kidded that I sure had found an expensive way to uproot the
apple tree n my front yard. Upon shutdown I had a standing ovation from
the group gathered down the block. What a thrill. My project has come
to life!
Motivation running high
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Soob powerd Piets. |
How many soob powerd piets are there here? We are planning on using that
power unit.
Thank you
Emelita W
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Soob powerd Piets. |
Emelita W wrote:
> How many soob powerd piets are there here? We are planning on using
> that
> power unit.
>
> Thank you
> Emelita W
Stevee here.
We have one here in Provo, owned by Dwyane Woolsey that has just got the
final color coat last week. He should be doing a first run sometime
this month. Until I found the A-65 I was planning on the Subaru. I'll
keep you posted.
stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Soob powerd Piets. |
Emelita Wrote:
Thank you for your reply! Is this particular Piet running direct drive
on his soob? The reduction costs so much and we will be building on a
budget you see!!
Thank you
Emelita Williamson
http://www2.misnet.com/~asawa
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Emelita W wrote:
>
> > How many soob powerd piets are there here? We are planning on using
> > that
> > power unit.
> >
> > Thank you
> > Emelita W
>
> Stevee here.
>
> We have one here in Provo, owned by Dwyane Woolsey that has just got the
> final color coat last week. He should be doing a first run sometime
> this month. Until I found the A-65 I was planning on the Subaru. I'll
> keep you posted.
>
> stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Soob powerd Piets. |
Emelita W wrote:
> Emelita Wrote:
>
> Thank you for your reply! Is this particular Piet running direct
> drive
> on his soob? The reduction costs so much and we will be building on
> a
> budget you see!!
>
> Thank you
> Emelita Williamson
> http://www2.misnet.com/~asawa
>
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
> >
> > Emelita W wrote:
> >
> > > How many soob powerd piets are there here? We are planning on
> using
> > > that
> > > power unit.
> > >
> > > Thank you
> > > Emelita W
> >
> > Stevee here.
> >
> > We have one here in Provo, owned by Dwyane Woolsey that has just
> got the
> > final color coat last week. He should be doing a first run
> sometime
> > this month. Until I found the A-65 I was planning on the Subaru.
> I'll
> > keep you posted.
> >
> > stevee
Nope. redrive about 2.1 to 1. You need a slow long prop on the piet.
A legacy engine might be a little better choice for a direct drive. It
is heavier and more powerful than the EA-81. Admittedly at the end of
my experience with this combo. Stevee
Emelita W wrote:
Emelita Wrote:
Thank you for your reply! Is this particular Piet running direct drive
on his soob? The reduction costs so much and we will be building on a
budget you see!!
Thank you
Emelita Williamson
http://www2.misnet.com/~asawa
Steve Eldredge wrote:
Emelita W wrote:
How many soob powerd piets are there here? We are planning on using
that
power unit.
Thank you
Emelita W
Stevee here.
We have one here in Provo, owned by Dwyane Woolsey that has just got
the
final color coat last week. He should be doing a first run sometime
this month. Until I found the A-65 I was planning on the Subaru.
I'll
keep you posted.
stevee
Nope. redrive about 2.1 to 1. You need a slow long prop
on the piet. A legacy engine might be a little better choice for
a direct drive. It is heavier and more powerful than the EA-81.
Admittedly at the end of my experience with this combo. Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
You probably have seen my pleas for infomation on a site gauge for the
wing tank on the Air Camper. Well I just finished my tank and wanted to
share this success story with you.
Anyone looking in Aircaft Spurce for the Stearman site gauge is out of
luck. They won't have any in stock acording to the order takers for 2
years! I couldn't wait that long even thoug it is nearly a perfect fit
for about $30. Instead I built my own for about $5. It is based on the
tank indicator in the 2nd Issue of the Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter.
For those who don't have that issue (it was in 85' or so) I will
explain.
I build the wing tank out of .040 aluminum from our local sheet metal
shop. I bent up the bottom tray and prosealed the sides and baffles
in. The sight gauge had me stimmied for a while until I came up with a
solution involving copper pipe fittings and vinyl tubing. Here is a
material list:
6 inches of 1/2" copper pipe (usually used for water plumbing)
1ea 1/2" copper pipe sleeve joint
1ea 1/8" NPT hose fitting
1ea large hardware store washer hole should be enlargeable to 5/8" dia
6" of fuel resistant vinyl hose
1 large cork
a few rivets
a few square inches of scrap aluminum
36" of 1/16" wire (I used welding rod)
1 small lead fishing weight
special tools include:
1/8" NPT tap
Safty wire pliers
Silver soldering tools (torch, solder, flux, etc)
Inside the tank I made a bracket and that held a length of the 1/16"
wire near the top of the tank such that it would hinge to the back
wall. I fastened the float to the other end of the wire so that it
would be in the deepest part of the tank ~ 16 inches or so from the back
wall of the tank. About 8 inches from the back I bent a 360 degree loop
in the wire which would be the location of the indicator that would pass
through the bottom of the tank. Next I cut a shorter lenght ~12" or so
as the indicator and bent it through the loop. I drilled a hole in the
bottom of the tank for the indicator to pass through. Cut the indicator
wire to length such that at full cork travel the indicator remains
outside the tank at least 3/4". At this point you have an indicator,
now you have to make it fuel proof since although accurate at this
point, your tank has been comprimised. (I.E. you've got a nice hole in
the bottom of your tank.) Here is where the creativity comes in. To
strengthen the inside of the tank and to have material to anchor the
fittings I made a 1/4" aluminum disk 2" in diameter. Tap a hole in the
center to 1/8" pipe threads. I found a brass hose fitting at the auto
parts store with matching threads to fit. This fitting screws into the
bottom of the tank through which the indicator passes. Pinch the lead
sinker to the bottom of the indicator and then slide the vinyl tubing
over the indicator and safety wire to the nipple of the fitting. Put a
bolt in the bottom end to seal the tube and safety wire it tight. I
found that a little gasket sealer is helpful to prevent leaks. In my
tank I put a quick drain in the bottom of the vinyl instead of a bolt.
It has come in handy several times already. At this point you have a
fuel tight tank, but the indicator gets stuck in the tubing due to the
curve the vinyl retains having been on a roll all its life. The final
step is to encase the vinyl tube in the length of copper tubing to
protect it and keep it straight. To do this, I drilled out the flat
washer to accept the copper pipe sleeve and soldered it on about half
way up on the sleeve. Cut one side of the sleeve off flush with the
washer. Drill four mounting holes in the washer and through to the
aluminum disk in the tank. This fitting will hold the copper tubing in
place firmly on the tank. Apply Proseal to the disk, tank bottom and
washer fittings, making sure not to clog the opening or restricting
movement of the indicator and bolt tight the whole assembly. Next cut
the copper tubing to lenght and cut out a window slightly longer than
the travel of the indicator. You may choose to cap one end or leave it
open if you have a quick drain. Clean all edges and paint the inside of
the window with white paint. To finish the install, slide the copper
tubing over the vinyl tubing making sure not to bend the indicator and
align the window towards the pilot. My sleeve fits very snuggly over
the vinyl and the safety wire making a clean solid sight gauge
installation. Works great!
I'll post some pictures with this article on my web sight in a few days.
Hope this is of some help to someone!
Steve Eldredge
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jholgate(at)netdoor.com> |
I am about the join the Pietenpol builders fraternity (I've ordered
the plans) and would like to know if anyone has seen or knows
anything about a bi-wing version of the Piet. I've seen pictures of
one but I don't know if it was a one of a kind or if there are
others.
I get the feeling from reading the FAQs section on the BPA site that
such a modification of a great design is frowned on by most members.
I'll be moving into a new house (with a BIG garage) in South Carolina
this weekend and plan to get started on my plane as soon as possible.
I've had an EAA biplane and a Teenie Too, but no wooden planes.
I'd also like to know of any Pietenpols in North or South Carolina or
Gerogia that I might get a look at.
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Part GN-1,part piet |
I purchased a project recently. I thought at first it was a piet, but now I
am leaning toward a GN-1.
The fus. is laid out like a GN-1, but is only skinned with 1/16" plywood
from the front to behind the seat, like a Piet. Is this acceptable, or is
this project just trash?
I have had our Eaa Chapter tech. councelor look at it and he thinks this is
fine. He said it was built plenty strong and excellent workmanship. The
thing that worries me is that he doesn't know much about Piets.
I plan to use a factory new A-65 that was given to me by a friend. It had
been stored in a barn for 32 years. It was in the military crate complete
with shingle roof like a dog house. I had never seen a NEW A-65 Crankshaft
till now. It may be the only one in extistance. The engine is complete
ready to bolt on, and had never been turned over.
I need some advise on this plywood puzzle so I can do something.
Thanks in advance
Barry Davis
bed(at)mindspring.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Site Gauge |
writes:
Steve how about a cork float and wire like the Piper Cub, with a mirror
on the treailing edge to see it with?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Site Gauge |
Jim T VanDervort wrote:
> writes:
>
> Steve how about a cork float and wire like the Piper Cub, with a
> mirror
> on the treailing edge to see it with?
Admittedly much easier to build. But as I imagine it, something about
a mirror in the slipstream directed so you could see is not all that
elegant. I figured I'd spend the time now getting what I want an enjoy
the fruits of my labors for a long time to come.
On the other hand maybe I just don't get it.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
Jack wrote:
> I am about the join the Pietenpol builders fraternity (I've ordered
> the plans) and would like to know if anyone has seen or knows
> anything about a bi-wing version of the Piet. I've seen pictures of
>
> one but I don't know if it was a one of a kind or if there are
> others.
>
> I get the feeling from reading the FAQs section on the BPA site that
>
> such a modification of a great design is frowned on by most members.
>
>
> I'll be moving into a new house (with a BIG garage) in South
> Carolina
> this weekend and plan to get started on my plane as soon as
> possible.
> I've had an EAA biplane and a Teenie Too, but no wooden planes.
>
> I'd also like to know of any Pietenpols in North or South Carolina
> or
> Gerogia that I might get a look at.
>
> Jack
St.Croix in Lake Oswego has plans for the biplane version of the piet
called the Ariel. I have the plans in fact. Not difficult to build in
the modifications, but the design is not a strong one. We calculated it
was good to less than 2 g's I can't belive that they actually flew it.
It coupld be done, but you would have to do some engineering yourself.
Change this, that and the other, wala new design *based* on the
Pietenpol.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Steve,
Congratulations. We used my wife's clothesline pole the first time I
started our C-65.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Part GN-1,part piet |
Barry
I think you ought to trash it all and send everything to me. I will
make sure that everything is properly taken care of and that they engine
is kept as a museum piece.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
Jack wrote:
>
> I am about the join the Pietenpol builders fraternity (I've ordered
> the plans) and would like to know if anyone has seen or knows
> anything about a bi-wing version of the Piet. I've seen pictures of
> one but I don't know if it was a one of a kind or if there are
> others.
Jack:
Good news! YOU get to decide what you want to build. I do not fault the
purist for frowning on the bi-plane (con)version as it does not build a
Piet, just an airplane BASED on the Piet construction. Therein is the
underling discussion and the pro's and con's will surely be pointed out
in this forum...
> I'll be moving into a new house (with a BIG garage) in South Carolina
SOME of us are just lucky (did you catch that Mike C.?)
Also, you might ask Mike Cuy to dub a copy of the video he sent me...
EXCELLENT! This tape will get the juices going in the right direction!
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | site gauge picts on web |
For those interested check out the pictures on my website of my site
gauge install.
http://ucs.byu.edu/ucs/fsa/sdeldred/steve.htm
stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
>> I'll be moving into a new house (with a BIG garage) in South Carolina
>>SOME of us are just lucky (did you catch that Mike C.?)
Jack, Gary, Wow, if I remarry ever I think one of my desires will
be to find a lady who owns either a nice 3 or 4 car garage or an out-
building w/ heat and insulation. I think Stevvee E. and I are going
to form a sub-group of guys who are attempting to build in their
living rooms and one-car garages :) MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <mcnarry(at)accnet.assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Biplane Piet |
>> I'll be moving into a new house (with a BIG garage) in South Carolina
>>SOME of us are just lucky (did you catch that Mike C.?)
Jack, Gary, Wow, if I remarry ever I think one of my desires will
be to find a lady who owns either a nice 3 or 4 car garage or an out-
building w/ heat and insulation. I think Stevvee E. and I are going
to form a sub-group of guys who are attempting to build in their
living rooms and one-car garages :) MC
A big garage is nice but......Stuff accumulates to fill the space
available! J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
How do we select the best grade douglis fir for our project? Can this be
done at the local wood yard? How to grade the grane and such all help is
needed.
Thank you
Emelita Williamson
http://www2.misnet.com/~asawa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Site Gauge |
writes:
>Jim T VanDervort wrote:
>
>> writes:
>>
>> Steve how about a cork float and wire like the Piper Cub, with a
>> mirror
>> on the treailing edge to see it with?
>
> Admittedly much easier to build. But as I imagine it, something
>about
>a mirror in the slipstream directed so you could see is not all that
>elegant. I figured I'd spend the time now getting what I want an
>enjoy
>the fruits of my labors for a long time to come.
>
>On the other hand maybe I just don't get it.
>
>Stevee
Elegant? You want elegant? C'mon now. I don't even have a gage. When the
FAA guy inspected my airplane, it was 10 above zero in an open hangar.,
Didn't take him long. but he did make me put a placard on the front
cockpit telling haow much the tank holds. Somebody (Grant could probably
tel us) at Brodhead had a mirror on the insturment panel that allowed him
to look through the mirror on the trailing edge to see the float
indicator!! Now there is elegant.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort) |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
writes:
>Jack wrote:
>
>> I am about the join the Pietenpol builders fraternity (I've ordered
>> the plans) and would like to know if anyone has seen or knows
>> anything about a bi-wing version of the Piet. I've seen pictures of
>>
>> one but I don't know if it was a one of a kind or if there are
>> others.
>>
>> I get the feeling from reading the FAQs section on the BPA site that
>>
>> such a modification of a great design is frowned on by most members.
>>
>>
>> I'll be moving into a new house (with a BIG garage) in South
>> Carolina
>> this weekend and plan to get started on my plane as soon as
>> possible.
>> I've had an EAA biplane and a Teenie Too, but no wooden planes.
>>
>> I'd also like to know of any Pietenpols in North or South Carolina
>> or
>> Gerogia that I might get a look at.
>>
>> Jack
>
> St.Croix in Lake Oswego has plans for the biplane version of the piet
>called the Ariel. I have the plans in fact. Not difficult to build
>in
>the modifications, but the design is not a strong one. We calculated
>it
>was good to less than 2 g's I can't belive that they actually flew
>it.
>It coupld be done, but you would have to do some engineering yourself.
>Change this, that and the other, wala new design *based* on the
>Pietenpol.
>
>Stevee
I think it is just another way to make money by selling Mr. Pietenpols
plans.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
>> I am about the join the Pietenpol builders fraternity (I've ordered
>>> the plans) and would like to know if anyone has seen or knows
>>> anything about a bi-wing version of the Piet. I've seen pictures of
A knowledgeable Scout builder near me by the name of Earl Myers
said that at least one Aerial had been built and had a serious CG
problem (aft) combined with too much drag and too little power.
He thinks the plane now rests in some museum.
Whenever I see a photo of a Curtiss Jenny I hold up my hand
to cover the bottom wings----boy, does it resemble a Pietenpol.
Wouldn't a scaled down Jenny be neat. MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Site Gauge |
Its been done. The one I know of the guy carries a hand mirror in the
cockpit. They say it doesn't work too good but satisfies the FAA.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
<< I'd also like to know of any Pietenpols in North or South Carolina or
Gerogia that I might get a look at. >>
Look up Jimmy and Connie Dean in Sanford, North Carolina. Jimmy has a Piet
built from an old original kit, complete with antique instruments, braided
control cables, Jenny wheels, etc. He is a captain for US Air, and Connie is
one of the nicest, prettiest southern women you'll meet. I'm sure they will
be very friendly and happy to hear from you.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Piet |
The only one I heard of flying was so tailheavy it scared its owners. They
gave it to a museum.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Part GN-1,part piet |
Does your friend need any new friends to give A-65s to? I'll volunteer!
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort) |
| Subject: | Re: site gauge picts on web |
writes:
>For those interested check out the pictures on my website of my site
>gauge install.
>
>http://ucs.byu.edu/ucs/fsa/sdeldred/steve.htm
>
>stevee
BTW, Steve, I forgot to thank you for hooking me back up.
So, thanks. JimV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Please help to check wood. |
Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are
going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.
Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob
power plant.
Thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
Just started seriously stitching my wings.
One thing to say.
Anyone who has successfully rib laced a whole wing by themself is now my
hero.
Stevee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are
>going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.
>Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob
>power plant.
>
>Thank you
>
Emelita
Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use
Barry
bed(at)mindspring.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JRoss10612(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
<<
Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are
going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.
Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob
power plant.
Thank you >>
What you are ooking for is a copy of the MIL-Spec 6073 regarding aircraft
wood. This was the original specification for aircraft wood way back when it
was the material of choice. I am fairly sure that the specification includes
methods for substitutions of other woods. I can assure you that veryical
grain Douglas Fir is one of them. I think that the allowable grain slope is
1:15. I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in
Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. They will ask
for a nominal donation if they do the resarch for you and send you copies. It
is money well spent, besides, it is a great organization to belong to if
you're going to build an airplane. EAA has published much info on sustitute
aircaraft woods, ask then about this.
I would also consult AC 43.131A/3 Acceptable Methods, techniques and
Practices. It has a nice section on Wood. Also, two older government
publications ANC-18 & ANC 19 design and fabrication of wood aircraft
structures.
Learning to grade wood for aircraft use is not difficult, and is easier than
it sounds. But it is important to select wood carefully, especially for spars
and longerons.
I can tell you that Douglas fir is about 20% heavier than aircraft spruce, so
to obtain efficient use out of the doug fir you need to make the parts
slightly smaller. This is an acceptable practice, and has been in fact done
in many Pietenpols. If you simply build per the plans and use doug fir, you
will have a HEAVY Pietenpol. Heck, Pietenpols are heavy to begin with, so
size the parts and you can have a strong, light Pietenpol.
Please let me know if I can be of any more assistance.
Pietenpols Forever (even though I'm building an RV-8)
Jon Ross BPA Member
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in
> Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library.
The heck with that LD business. the toll-free number is 1-800-843-3612 (in US and
Canada).
They also have a web site for e-mail and stuff. Obviously if your looking at fir
your on
a budget. I know I am.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
Barry Davis wrote:
>
> >Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are
> >going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.
> >Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob
> >power plant.
> >
> >Thank you
> >
>
> Emelita
>
> Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use
>
> Barry
> bed(at)mindspring.com
Barry, Would you please send me also a copy of your report on Fir for
aircraft use. Thanks. My fax number is (715) 258-0408.
Arden Adamson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
JRoss10612(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> <<
> Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are
> going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.
> Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob
> power plant.
>
> Thank you >>
>
> What you are ooking for is a copy of the MIL-Spec 6073 regarding aircraft
> wood. This was the original specification for aircraft wood way back when it
> was the material of choice. I am fairly sure that the specification includes
> methods for substitutions of other woods. I can assure you that veryical
> grain Douglas Fir is one of them. I think that the allowable grain slope is
> 1:15. I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in
> Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. They will ask
> for a nominal donation if they do the resarch for you and send you copies. It
> is money well spent, besides, it is a great organization to belong to if
> you're going to build an airplane. EAA has published much info on sustitute
> aircaraft woods, ask then about this.
>
> I would also consult AC 43.131A/3 Acceptable Methods, techniques and
> Practices. It has a nice section on Wood. Also, two older government
> publications ANC-18 & ANC 19 design and fabrication of wood aircraft
> structures.
>
> Learning to grade wood for aircraft use is not difficult, and is easier than
> it sounds. But it is important to select wood carefully, especially for spars
> and longerons.
>
> I can tell you that Douglas fir is about 20% heavier than aircraft spruce, so
> to obtain efficient use out of the doug fir you need to make the parts
> slightly smaller. This is an acceptable practice, and has been in fact done
> in many Pietenpols. If you simply build per the plans and use doug fir, you
> will have a HEAVY Pietenpol. Heck, Pietenpols are heavy to begin with, so
> size the parts and you can have a strong, light Pietenpol.
>
> Please let me know if I can be of any more assistance.
>
> Pietenpols Forever (even though I'm building an RV-8)
> Jon Ross BPA Member
Jon, when you say that it's ok to make the douglas fir parts smaller,
how much smaller can they be? Can you give me some examples, say the
fusalage framing. Thanks.
Arden
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
Emelita Wrote.
My fax # is= 601-824-7198
Thank you
Emelita Williamson
Barry Davis wrote:
>
> >Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are
> >going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.
> >Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob
> >power plant.
> >
> >Thank you
> >
>
> Emelita
>
> Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use
>
> Barry
> bed(at)mindspring.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JRoss10612(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
Arden,
The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other parts is
to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around by say
1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere about
the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it was an
unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple formulas,
available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of these
woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or perhaps
the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use for
sizing fir substitutions.
Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain slope,
orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,
especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long been a
favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education is the
least expensive part of your Pietenpol.
BTW, will you use a Model A?
Hope this helps,
Jon Ross
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort) |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Stitching |
writes:
> Just started seriously stitching my wings.
>
>One thing to say.
>
>Anyone who has successfully rib laced a whole wing by themself is now
>my
>hero.
>
>Stevee.
Are you using the old elastic strap trick?
Pre-poke the holes?
Light on the other side?
Wing on edge?
While you are doing it, remember that mice like to chew on dacron
thread!!!!
T'craft martin fabric wire is nice !!!
JimV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
JRoss10612(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Arden,
>
> The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other parts is
> to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around by say
> 1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere about
> the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it was an
> unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple formulas,
> available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of these
> woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or perhaps
> the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use for
> sizing fir substitutions.
>
> Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain slope,
> orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,
> especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long been a
> favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education is the
> least expensive part of your Pietenpol.
>
> BTW, will you use a Model A?
>
> Hope this helps,
> Jon Ross
Jon. Thanks for your response. I'll check into your recommendations. I
have the Piet plans and hope to use the Model A. Haven't started yet but
am gathering info. Instead I've built a house, duplex, and next is a
large garage (34 X 50). Hope is to start building then in the garage.
Good luck on your RV-8. How far along are you?
Arden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Stitching |
> Just started seriously stitching my wings.
>
>One thing to say.
>
>Anyone who has successfully rib laced a whole wing by themself is now my
>hero.
>
>Stevee.
masking tape on critical parts of the hands which can get bloody quickly
from the lacing.
By the way, congratulations on running your engine ! Isn't it great to
feel the prop wash, smell the av gas burning, and feel the rumbling
through the fuselage ? It is alive ! MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JRoss10612(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
Arden,
The Empennage is complete on my RV-8, and the wings are being skinned now. I
expect the fuselage kit in another month or so.
Good luck with the Pietenpol!
Best,
Jon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort) |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>Arden,
>
>The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other
>parts is
>to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around
>by say
>1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere
>about
>the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it
>was an
>unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple
>formulas,
>available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of
>these
>woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or
>perhaps
>the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use
>for
>sizing fir substitutions.
>
>Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain
>slope,
>orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,
>especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long
>been a
>favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education
>is the
>least expensive part of your Pietenpol.
>
>BTW, will you use a Model A?
>
>Hope this helps,
>Jon Ross
I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of
substitutes.
When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>
>I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of
>substitutes.
>When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.
I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you used a good
grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it?
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
> >
>
> >I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of
> >substitutes.
> >When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.
>
> I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you used a good
> grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it?
> Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
I can get an aircraft grade sitka front spar plank from a local supplier here in
Sounthern Ontario for about $180. That's about $135 us. What's the price for
an equivalent part in fir from a lumber yard?
Also, has anybody bought lumber from a marine supplier? Would selecting pieces
from
marine grade stock be worthwhile?
John Kahn
Bombardier Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Stitching |
<< Are you using the old elastic strap trick?
Pre-poke the holes?
Light on the other side?
Wing on edge?
While you are doing it, remember that mice like to chew on dacron
thread!!!!
T'craft martin fabric wire is nice !!!
JimV. >>
O.K. Jim,
I can tell you are chomping at the bit to share some of your wisdom of the
ages. Please, oh sage, enlighten us regarding the intricacies of rib
stitching!!!!
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rib Stitching |
JGreenlee(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> << Are you using the old elastic strap trick?
What is the "old elastic strap trick"
> Pre-poke the holes?
>
Yep
> Light on the other side?
yep
> Wing on edge?
yep
> While you are doing it, remember that mice like to chew on dacron
> thread!!!!
>
Rather not hear about it.
> T'craft martin fabric wire is nice !!!
>
What is fabric wire?
-Steve e.
PS. One wing down, one left to go! Thanks to my wife for learning the
finer points of rib stitching while on the job with me. I took Friday
off (my birthday) and worked till my fingers hurt. ONe wing panel ready
for paint and other ready for stitches!
Later,
steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Stitching |
Hi,
> -Steve e.
>
> PS. One wing down, one left to go! Thanks to my wife for learning the
> finer points of rib stitching while on the job with me. I took Friday
> off (my birthday) and worked till my fingers hurt. ONe wing panel ready
> for paint and other ready for stitches!
>
> Later,
>
> steve
>
Just curious, how many hours has it taken so far to fabric the wings? I have
the same process to look forward to in a month or so.
Thanks,
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>
>
>I can get an aircraft grade sitka front spar plank from a local supplier here
in
>Sounthern Ontario for about $180. That's about $135 us. What's the price for
>an equivalent part in fir from a lumber yard?
>
>Also, has anybody bought lumber from a marine supplier? Would selecting pieces
from
>marine grade stock be worthwhile?
>
I buy a "nice" vertically sawn 2X10 Douglas Fir with about 10 rings per inch for
$3.90 per linear foot. One of the local lumber yards orders this stuff
specifically for people building and repairing aircraft. This wood is NOT
typical of what you'll find in a lumber yard. But this is still considerably
less expensive than buying spruce through Wicks or Aircraft Spruce.
I haven't found a local source for aircraft quality Spruce. (JimV - Do you know
of one in central of southern Ohio?)
What size are the spar planks you're pricing?
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
I buy a "nice" vertically sawn 2X10 Douglas Fir with about 10 rings per inch for
$3.90 per linear foot. One of the local lumber yards orders this stuff
specifically for people building and repairing aircraft. This wood is NOT
typical of what you'll find in a lumber yard. But this is still considerably
less expensive than buying spruce through Wicks or Aircraft Spruce.
I haven't found a local source for aircraft quality Spruce. (JimV - Do you know
of one in central of southern Ohio?)
What size are the spar planks you're pricing?
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
3/4 x 5 1/2 x 13 ft. The price list is at home so I'll have to confirm
the dimension, plus I can get figures for other sizes. With the exchange rate
and shipping, the cost seemed competitive with ordering from AS&S.
I'm going to check out a place here in Toronto that sells spruce and fir for
boat builders. Interesting to see the difference.
Has anybody laminated their own spars from 1x1s? I've seen Citabria spars made
that way and they're supposed to be stronger than solid planks. Plus 1x1s
are a little easier to obtain.
How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir
plank like that?
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir
>plank like that?
>
>
>John Kahn
I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality (the
whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
Dean Dayton wrote:
> >How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of
>
> a fir
> >plank like that?
> >
> >
> >John Kahn
>
> I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality
>
> (the
> whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.
> Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans
dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense of
about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's
stevee
Dean Dayton wrote:
>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able
to extract out of
a fir
>plank like that?
>
>
>John Kahn
I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality
(the
whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans
dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense of
about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's
stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
> Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans
>dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense of
>about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's
>
>stevee
>
What kind of wood did you use?
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir
>>plank like that?
>>
>>
>>John Kahn
>I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality (the
>whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.
>Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!
I gotta look into this a little more.
Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? And how the heck do you
know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word for it?
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!
>I gotta look into this a little more.
OK, you're forcing me to be correct here. I just checked my receipt and in fact
I paid $4.60 per foot for 2X8 (planed, not rough sawn). I don't remember Piet
spar dimensions, can you get more than one from a 2X8? Sorry for the
inaccuracy, I bought enough for the tail surfaces 6 months ago and it's been
waiting for me to get enough time to make the first cut.
>
>Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir?
The pictures I have seen of wood that has compression failures seems distinctive
(if you examine the wood closely). I have not seen any actual wood with
compression failure. I'll probably try to put together some kind of a test rig
before I get too far along.
>And how the heck do you
>know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?
I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture.
Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight).
Please don't take any of the above statements as advice. I am not an expert, I
am only giving you my interpretation of the research I have done.
I
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
Dean Dayton wrote:
> > Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans
> >dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense
> of
> >about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's
> >
> >stevee
> >
> What kind of wood did you use?
Sorry, it was douglas fir.
As far as getting more than two spars out of a 2 x 10. I only got one
each out of a 2x6. remember you have to leave room for waste. a 2 inch
wide board will likely give you a one inch spar and maybe a 1/2" plank.
BTW the spars are 4-3/4" tall.
Stevee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rib Stitching times |
Somebody asked about the time it took to rib stitch. It took about 8
hours I would guess. The next wing should tak about half that, now that
I know what not to do. I am still interested in the elastic band trick
mentioned earlier.
Steve "learning curve unavoidable" Eldredge
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | PIET: Wood questions |
I bought a Piet project and in doing some checking and measuring, discovered
that the gussets and fus. sides are 1/16" instead of the 3/32" called for on
the plans. I know this is only 1/32" thinner, but is this OK?
I had a tech. advisor look at it and he passed it with flying colors. Does
any piet builders have a comment?
Should I junk it, or build it?
Barry
By the way, all the rest is Douglas Fir.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
writes:
>>
>
>>I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price
>of
>>substitutes.
>>When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly.
>JimV.
>
>I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you
>used a good
>grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it?
>Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>---------------------------------------------------------
>
No, the first wing was made of hemlock (ribs) and sitka spruce (spars). I
flew it into the side of a building and it broke. Had to build another
wing and things. I laminated my spars this time, using white pine and
spruce. Cost more, but like them better. Used CWP (clear white pine) for
the ribs. Cwp is as much per bd ft as spruce.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: Wood questions |
Barry Davis wrote:
> I bought a Piet project and in doing some checking and measuring,
> discovered
> that the gussets and fus. sides are 1/16" instead of the 3/32" called
> for on
> the plans. I know this is only 1/32" thinner, but is this OK?
>
> I had a tech. advisor look at it and he passed it with flying colors.
> Does
> any piet builders have a comment?
>
> Should I junk it, or build it?
>
> Barry
>
> By the way, all the rest is Douglas Fir.
Barry,
This is a difficult question to answer sight unseen. I used 1/8"
gussets on the fuse. I don't think that you ought to disqualify your
fuse just because it has 1/16" gussets, however I could be wrong.
Having a tech counselor look at it is a much more objective opinion
because he can look for other things that might add up to a problem
fuse. (I.E. improper squeeze out of glue, type of glue used,
dimensions of the gussets, general craftsmanship, joinery, etc.)
Pietenpol's designs are over designed. Under built they still might be
strong enough, but the final call is the builder/pilot's. This is the
reason I didn't bother with scaling down my fir parts. I'll take the
weight penalty (which by the way is going to be negligible ~5lbs) and
take the extra strength. I understand your concern, but the best you
will probably be able to do is get the opinion of tech counselors and
other builders, (like you are doing) or do the finite element analysis.
Good Luck,
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
>
>
> >So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!
> >I gotta look into this a little more.
>
> OK, you're forcing me to be correct here. I just checked my receipt and in fact
> I paid $4.60 per foot for 2X8 (planed, not rough sawn). I don't remember Piet
> spar dimensions, can you get more than one from a 2X8? Sorry for the
> inaccuracy, I bought enough for the tail surfaces 6 months ago and it's been
> waiting for me to get enough time to make the first cut.
>
> >
> >Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir?
> The pictures I have seen of wood that has compression failures seems distinctive
> (if you examine the wood closely). I have not seen any actual wood with
> compression failure. I'll probably try to put together some kind of a test rig
> before I get too far along.
>
> >And how the heck do you
> >know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?
> I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture.
> Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight).
>
> Please don't take any of the above statements as advice. I am not an expert,
I
> am only giving you my interpretation of the research I have done.
>
I expect a 2x8 would give you at least one spar and a bunch of longerons
and capstrips for about 65 bucks. A fraction of the cost of certified spruce.
Still a deal!
I read some good advice about testing for compression failures
recently that said to save all the rip cut scraps and break them up
every few inches to make sure they splinter all along their length. Any
clean perpendicular breaks indicate compression failure. A handy backup
to visual inspection.
There was a Taylor craft up here that crashed when the wing folded up
because the spar failed due to a compression failure in the spar. DOT
speculated that the airplane had groundlooped and dug a wingtip. The
bending load applied at the wingtip caused a compression failure in
the spar just outboard of the strut attachment. The spar had a break
through its upper half that looked in the photo like it was made
by a hand saw. It took some hours before it let go, and was missed
during inspections since it was nearly impossible to spot the tiny little
lines across the grain though an inspection hole.
Just got off the phone with a marine supplier here in Toronto
who told me he has given up on buying douglas fir because they can't
get it in marine grade. There's lots of it but it's all shipped out
of country, mostly to Japan. All they can get here is the junk.
He had sitka spruce select 2x6s for $12 can/ft. About half the price
for a certified spar plank, assuming you could cut them to 3/4 x 5 and
get 2 spars.
So may be worth a trip south to get wood when I get around to building.
John Kahn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Please help to check wood. |
<< >And how the heck do you
>know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?
I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture.
Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight). >>
They have a different smell when you cut them....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
The following is an excerpt from "EAA Aircraft Building Techniques":
"If your spruce ship weighs, say 800 lbs. empty you have probably
around 100-150 lbs. of wood in it. With fir your ship would pick up
25-35 lbs more, which isn't very much, all things considered." (Not my
words - just a quote).
However, based on the information contained in this excellent
guide, I have substituted fir in the seat framing, ailerons and a few
other bits and pieces here and there. I do not remember the prices I
paid at the time, but definitely cheaper than spruce and due to the
smaller individual sizes I was able to cut out excellent pieces as
required. By smaller I don't mean reduced dimensions I left everything
sized as per plan.
Working with fir is a bit more difficult, but when I "cut off one
piece twice to find it still an inch too short" it was relatively
painless ($). (By the way I'm sure that was the only "errant" cut I made
during process :) Need any fir toothpicks?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
Hello Gary,
I have been following the discussion regarding spruce versus fir in the
Pietenpol airplanes. For what it is worth, I recorded the weights of
various components of two Pietenpols: my own (CF- AUN built in 1970) and
my friend, Roy Wadson's (C-FARH built in 1975). I shall place AUN's
weights in brackets and ARH's without brackets.
* NOTE: Covered weight of wing panel for CF-AUN includes aileron, also
covered.
CF-AUN was covered with Grade A cotton which was heavier than the poly-
ester fabric used on C-FARH.
AUN'S spars are of laminated fir to form an I-Beam section identical to
the routed section shown in the Pietenpol plans. ARH's spars are of Sitka
spruce, unrouted (4 3/4 inches by 1 inch...the basic unrouted dimension).
The rest of AUN's structure is mainly of spruce while ARH employs spruce
exclusively.
AUN is the the lighter of the two and originally had an empty weight of
645 lbs with a Continental A65 and a 6 foot wooden propeller and Grade A
cotton cover, hand- rubbed. It has since been recovered with polyester
fabric and has a "utility" finish using less dope. This, together with the
substitution of an ultra light tailwheel in place of the old 6 inch Scott,
has resulted in a weight saving of 15 lbs.! I now weighs 630 lbs dry with
a C85-8 engine.
Icannot recall ARH's weight, but think it is in the neighbourhood of 665
lbs. dry. Frankly, I cannot account for the difference between the two
because they were built from the same jigs and are very similar. ARH's
landing gear may be a bit heavier and there must be a few extra pounds
lurking here and there...but I don't know where.
If I were to build another Pietenpol, it would be under 600 lbs dry
because I would use aluminum ribs, leading edge and trailing edge, lighter
covering and could save some weight in fittings, struts, etc. A one-piece
wing would save close to 15 lbs. also
Bill Stout, designer of the Ford Trimotor, is reported to have said:
"Simplicate and add Lightness!"
Cheers to all,
Graham Hansen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimvan1(at)juno.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Stitching times |
writes:
>Somebody asked about the time it took to rib stitch. It took about 8
>hours I would guess. The next wing should tak about half that, now
>that
>I know what not to do. I am still interested in the elastic band
>trick
>mentioned earlier.
>
>Steve "learning curve unavoidable" Eldredge
Steve - the elastic band trick is a simple way to mark where the rib
stitches holes need to be so as to be vertical when done. The distance
from the trailing edge to the top hole will be longer than to the bottom
hole. Take a piece of elastic band and stretch it out rather loosely, and
mark lines the correct distance as calculated from the speed range chart
in 43.13. Lay it on the bottom of the wing in this condition and mark
where the holes will be. Lay the elastic band on top of the wing, and
stretch it out so it comes out evenly spaced, and there is where the
holes ought to be.
________________________________________________________________________________
just a test.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> just a test.
It worked!
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> just a test.
Steve, test came through
Arden Adamson
________________________________________________________________________________
testing my mail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGreenlee(at)aol.com |
O.K., here's the deal:
I've got the ribs glued to the spars on my right wing. BHP's instructions in
different Flying & Glider Manuals say in one place to put on the leading and
trailing edges before you make up the drag and anti-drag wires. In another
place they say to make up the wires first.
Are there any special problems in lining up and "trueing" the wings? I am
leaning toward glueing up the le and te first.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
John & Group, Please correct this advice if in error, but the
sequence I used was slide the ribs on, make up the drag/anti drag
cables, tighten them to square the wing using trammel or whatever
works for you, slide the ribs over in position w/glue and nail in
place, (and you may have to slide some ribs left or right from their
intended position to clear the X bracing cables.)
let cure, long sanding block to even up each rib to the other,
then le and te install. Don't do like I did and permanently attach the
wing tip bow before you slide in the aileron spars !! Not a pretty
discovery. The saw horses should be level, but you can't believe
how much twist the wings have even right up to cover. The wing
strut adjustments should take up any minor errors built into the wing.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Hansen <grhans(at)telusplanet.net> |
Sound advice, Michael. This is the accepted procedure for any wing of this
type using drag and anti-drag wires or tie rods. Most books on aviation
mehanics
(preferably older ones) will also give details on trammeling, or squaring
up , the
drag/anti-drag truss bays. Always start this process at the root bay and
proceed
bay by bay toward the tip. It is not difficult to do, but must be done
carefully. If a
3-piece wing is used incorporating a center section, the wing panel must be
attached
to the center section before beginning the trammelling procedure. A trammel
bar gives the most accurate results, but don't buy an expensive set of
trammel points;
borrow, rent, or make, a set because you won't use them very often.
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (Please note my new E-mail address...the old one is still
in effect also.)
---------
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Wings
> Date: Monday, May 19, 1997 8:09 AM
>
>
> John & Group, Please correct this advice if in error, but the
> sequence I used was slide the ribs on, make up the drag/anti drag
> cables, tighten them to square the wing using trammel or whatever
> works for you, slide the ribs over in position w/glue and nail in
> place, (and you may have to slide some ribs left or right from their
> intended position to clear the X bracing cables.)
> let cure, long sanding block to even up each rib to the other,
> then le and te install. Don't do like I did and permanently attach the
> wing tip bow before you slide in the aileron spars !! Not a pretty
> discovery. The saw horses should be level, but you can't believe
> how much twist the wings have even right up to cover. The wing
> strut adjustments should take up any minor errors built into the wing.
> Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
How many 1x1's are needed in the construction of the Piet? Also what are
the other sizes of cut lumber needed.
Thank you
Emelita W
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How much 1x1's |
Emelita W wrote:
> How many 1x1's are needed in the construction of the Piet? Also what
> are
> the other sizes of cut lumber needed.
>
> Thank you
> Emelita W
At least 4 14' 1x1's for the longerons. I think I also used about
another 20' or so as blanks for various tail parts, like main beams in
the elevator, stab, fin, and rudder.
It would be great if there was an accurate material/cut list. I started
one, but I finished building my plane without really keeping track
enought to be accurate.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How much 1x1's |
Thank you for your information. Now what other sizes are needed and how
many feet of these different sizes.
Thank you
Emelita W
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> Emelita W wrote:
>
> > How many 1x1's are needed in the construction of the Piet? Also what
> > are
> > the other sizes of cut lumber needed.
> >
> > Thank you
> > Emelita W
>
> At least 4 14' 1x1's for the longerons. I think I also used about
> another 20' or so as blanks for various tail parts, like main beams in
> the elevator, stab, fin, and rudder.
>
> It would be great if there was an accurate material/cut list. I started
> one, but I finished building my plane without really keeping track
> enought to be accurate.
>
> Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
I haven't been gettin any messages lately. Since 5/12. just testing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet: Douglas fir |
Does anyone know of a source of fir in the Atlanta area? I found two
places, but they said you had to take what THEY picked out. Maybe someone
else has been more successful.
I offered a report on how to pick Douglas fir for aircraft use, but most of
the Fax #'s people gave me were busy. If anyone else wants a copy, send a
SASE to me and I will send you the info.
Barry Davis
728 Bankhead Ave.
Carrollton, Ga. 30117
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet: Douglas fir |
Emelita wrote.
i am still interested in your information on picking doug fir. Please
try to fax it to me .
Thank you
Emelita W
Barry Davis wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a source of fir in the Atlanta area? I found two
> places, but they said you had to take what THEY picked out. Maybe someone
> else has been more successful.
>
> I offered a report on how to pick Douglas fir for aircraft use, but most of
> the Fax #'s people gave me were busy. If anyone else wants a copy, send a
> SASE to me and I will send you the info.
>
> Barry Davis
> 728 Bankhead Ave.
> Carrollton, Ga. 30117
________________________________________________________________________________
Did I get disconnected?
I haven't seen any piet messages in a long time.
let me know
Thanks
Barry
bed(at)mindspring.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Are there many here building from model piet plans? We have located a
set in 1/4 scale and was wondering if these are the same as the original
air camper and were they the streached version? How is this streach done
too like how many inches to lengthen the fuseiage.
Thank you
Emelita W
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: hello? |
>Did I get disconnected?
>
>I haven't seen any piet messages in a long time.
Must be that everyon'e out flying or building, maybe the weather's been
nice. But you're coming through loud and clear here....
Cheers,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: hello? |
Emelita wrote: Hi Steve thats my husbands name also. Are you building
from model plans and how far along are you. How much do you have
invested in your plane and how much will it finely cost?
Thank you
Emelita W
Steve Pugh wrote:
>
>
> >Did I get disconnected?
> >
> >I haven't seen any piet messages in a long time.
>
> Must be that everyon'e out flying or building, maybe the weather's been
> nice. But you're coming through loud and clear here....
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: hello? |
>Emelita wrote: Hi Steve thats my husbands name also. Are you building
>from model plans and how far along are you. How much do you have
>invested in your plane and how much will it finely cost?
Hello! I've invested the cost of plans from Don P., and am all the way up
to the stage where I look at the plans every few weeks, instead of every
few days. Maybe I'll actually start this year, but I get more cynical
about it as time goes by...
Cheers,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: hello? |
Emelita wrote:
Steve.
If you get to the point of not doing it and will sell the plans cheap
Ill buy them .
Emelita W
Steve Pugh wrote:
>
>
> >Emelita wrote: Hi Steve thats my husbands name also. Are you building
> >from model plans and how far along are you. How much do you have
> >invested in your plane and how much will it finely cost?
>
> Hello! I've invested the cost of plans from Don P., and am all the way up
> to the stage where I look at the plans every few weeks, instead of every
> few days. Maybe I'll actually start this year, but I get more cynical
> about it as time goes by...
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: hello? |
A slight trick that I picked up real early on. Don't spend too much time
looking at what has to be done (it's massive) rather look at the groups of
pieces. For you down hill skiers, its like the first time to a really big
mountain. When you stand on the top and look down, you are really
intimidated. If you stand there and think, hey, this is just a whole bunch
of small hills stacked on top of one another, its not so bad, and do-able.
Good luck,
-=Ian=-
> From: Emelita W
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: PIET: hello?
> Date: Saturday, May 24, 1997 12:56 PM
>
> Emelita wrote:
> Steve.
> If you get to the point of not doing it and will sell the plans cheap
> Ill buy them .
>
> Emelita W
>
> Steve Pugh wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Emelita wrote: Hi Steve thats my husbands name also. Are you building
> > >from model plans and how far along are you. How much do you have
> > >invested in your plane and how much will it finely cost?
> >
> > Hello! I've invested the cost of plans from Don P., and am all the way
up
> > to the stage where I look at the plans every few weeks, instead of
every
> > few days. Maybe I'll actually start this year, but I get more cynical
> > about it as time goes by...
> >
;-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Steve
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
Couple of questions on the rivets attaching the hardware to the beams in
the tail feathers. Are these soft or hard aluminum or steel? How do you
upset a rivet 1 1/4 inch long without damaging the wood? Anybody using
bolts?
The beast is coming along good, with all wing ribs done, tail feathers done
(except for rivets) and the fuselage at the point where I have sat in it!
Still having lots of fun!
Best regards,
-=Ian=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Couple of questions on the rivets attaching the hardware to the beams in
>the tail feathers. Are these soft or hard aluminum or steel? How do you
>upset a rivet 1 1/4 inch long without damaging the wood? Anybody using
>bolts?
Ian- I've only seen one or two Piets with rivets in those tail fittings. If
you have to nicopress new cables to the fittings, recover, etc it seems that
bolts back there are the thing.
On another note, I just finished copying a set of Cub cooling baffles
using 2024-0 soft aluminum for my 65 Cont. (otherwise check out
the $325 they get for them already fabricated $$$) and now finishing
the cowl out of 2024-T3 (both .025" thickness). After all that wood
work the aluminum work has turned out to be alot of fun. I'm
copying Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy cowl almost to the tee.
Found that white posterboard from the store and masking tape work
well for cutting and fitting around the engine and cockpit areas.
Makes a nice template that you can magic marker right onto the
aluminum sheet and then trim up to fit well. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Rivets
> Date: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 13:52 PM
>
> >Couple of questions on the rivets attaching the hardware to the beams in
> >the tail feathers. Are these soft or hard aluminum or steel? How do you
> >upset a rivet 1 1/4 inch long without damaging the wood? Anybody using
> >bolts?
>
> Ian- I've only seen one or two Piets with rivets in those tail fittings.
If
> you have to nicopress new cables to the fittings, recover, etc it seems
that
> bolts back there are the thing.
> On another note, I just finished copying a set of Cub cooling
baffles
> using 2024-0 soft aluminum for my 65 Cont. (otherwise check out
> the $325 they get for them already fabricated $$$) and now finishing
> the cowl out of 2024-T3 (both .025" thickness). After all that wood
> work the aluminum work has turned out to be alot of fun. I'm
> copying Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy cowl almost to the tee.
> Found that white posterboard from the store and masking tape work
> well for cutting and fitting around the engine and cockpit areas.
> Makes a nice template that you can magic marker right onto the
> aluminum sheet and then trim up to fit well. Mike C.
>
Thanks, Michael. I hadn't thought of having to change cables. I will look
at a combination that will be below the fabric after covering. I also
appreciate the comments on the aluminum work. I am still working on the
hardware and cabanes, but eventually will want to top skin the front of the
fuselage.
I would like to get my hands on a 65 coninental, but not having much luck.
Either too far away, or in grim shape. i am starting to look at alternates,
even if I have to put a starter and gear box on it.
I am also gearing up to put the wings together, but want to do all the
metal work before starting. The wife likes her garage (even in the summer).
Thanks again,
-=Ian=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PIET: hello? |
>A slight trick that I picked up real early on. Don't spend too much time
>looking at what has to be done (it's massive) rather look at the groups of
>pieces. For you down hill skiers, its like the first time to a really big
>mountain. When you stand on the top and look down, you are really
>intimidated. If you stand there and think, hey, this is just a whole bunch
>of small hills stacked on top of one another, its not so bad, and do-able.
>
>Good luck,
>-=Ian=-
>
>----------
>> From: Emelita W
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: Re: PIET: hello?
>> Date: Saturday, May 24, 1997 12:56 PM
>>
>> Emelita wrote:
>> Steve.
>> If you get to the point of not doing it and will sell the plans cheap
>> Ill buy them .
>>
>> Emelita W
>>
>> Steve Pugh wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > >Emelita wrote: Hi Steve thats my husbands name also. Are you building
>> > >from model plans and how far along are you. How much do you have
>> > >invested in your plane and how much will it finely cost?
>> >
>> > Hello! I've invested the cost of plans from Don P., and am all the way
>up
>> > to the stage where I look at the plans every few weeks, instead of
>every
>> > few days. Maybe I'll actually start this year, but I get more cynical
>> > about it as time goes by...
>> >
>;-)
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>
Yea, don't worry about whether to build the wings or the fus. first. Pick
out something like the ribs or fittings or rudder. Its just a lot of little
projects. It doesn't have to be built next week.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Fwd: Add Me to Chat] |
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by smtp.connectnet.com (8.8.5/Connectnet-2.2) with SMTP id LAA10071 for
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:02:37 -0700
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello, Steve.
My intentions are to build a 75 Hp Continental Powered Air Camper. I
have both the GN-1 Plans and the Hoopman Plans (with extended fuselage).
I wish to participate in the Chat Group for the Piet' and hereby request
my name be added to the list. I have built a jig to weld the motor mount
and about to cut tubing for the mount.
Questions I would like answered are:
What prop (pitch, diameter, make) have people flown with 75 hp on a
Piet' and what performance did they achieve?
I am in the market for the Generator (alternator?) plus Vacuum Pump to
accessorize my Continental.
What is a typical fuselage weight for steel tube assembly? Extended
fuselage weight?
What is a typical wing weight? I wish to keep it light but what are the
weights people are achieving to compare to?
Sincerely,
Alan Laudani
2148 Raymond Ave.
Ramona, CA 92065
acer(at)connectnet.com
619-694-6307
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: Add Me to Chat] |
Among other things, Alan Laudani wrote:
> I am in the market for the Generator (alternator?) plus Vacuum Pump
> to accessorize my Continental.
Well, okay, I can see a generator, sort of, though hand-propping my Colt
when the electrical system was out never bothered me. But why on Earth
would you hang a vacuum pump on a Piet? Just curious.
Incidentally, can you even put accessories on a C75? I always thought
the
C85-12 was the first Continental that would take something like a vacuum
pump.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: [Fwd: Add Me to Chat] |
I had hoped to install a vacuum directional Gyro and artificial Horizon
which may help keep things rightside up if clouds come my way. The
generator will keep a battery charged for position, landing and
anti-collision lights, VOR & GPS navigation, communication, intercom and
mode C transponder. I hope to use my Piet for more than Sunday flying
and intend to prop start only. I have an accessory case that would mount
the generator, but I still need the gear to drive it. I had heard there
is a combined generator/vacuum pump that drives off this gear, but as I
am not fully Continental Conversant, I am looking for advice. If
necessary, I could mount a propeller driven generator between the gear
legs and install the usual venturi to drive the gyros. This would be
simple but draggy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: Add Me to Chat] |
Alan Laudani wrote:
>> I had hoped to install a vacuum directional Gyro and artificial Horizon which
may help keep things rightside up if clouds come my way. The generator will
keep a battery charged for position, landing and anti-collision lights, VOR &
GPS navigation, communication, intercom and mode C transponder. I hope to use
my Piet for more than Sunday flying and intend to prop start only. I have an
accessory case that would mount the generator, but I still need the gear to drive
it. I had heard there is a combined
Okay. Fair enough, I guess. Though if you are looking for a serious
cross-country plane, which is what it sounds like, I have to wonder
whether you are asking the Piet for more than it was designed to give.
And it's definitely the first time I've ever heard anyone worry about
adding a little drag to a Pietenpol! 8-)
Best of luck with it.
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Fwd: Chat Group?] |
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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 15:43:44 -0500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com> |
Hi Steve my name is Kevin McDonald in Austin TX,
I was wondering if the Pietenpol list is up?
If so I'd like to subscribe. My e-mail is
kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com
Fell free to post this msg.
I recently bought a Pietenpol and flew it for the first time last night.
The flight went well although I was doing a little bit of pilot induced
oscillation. (light on the elevator!)
Top speed indicated about 95 at 2400 rpm. cruise registers
about 80 at 2000 rpm - the airspeed may be a little happy!
The first landing was uneventful and Cub like.
The plane was built in 1982 by John Roe of Ft. Worth TX. (deceased).
It seems to be a combination of a Pietenpol and a Grega GN-1.
It has a one piece wing and Cub style landing gear.
The prop is a Hagy wood 70 * 40.
Take off is a little slow as the engine only turns 2000 rpm static.
Empty weight is 608 pounds
Color is green and yellow. It used to say 'Lightning' on the side of the
cowl.
If you or anybody else has any information on this plane or John Roe
I sure would like to hear from them!
Thanx,
Kevin McDonald
________________________________________________________________________________
just a test
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: Chat Group?] |
Hi Steve!
Whatever you did by forwarding the message, it gave me 14 repeats.
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: [Fwd: Chat Group?]
> Date: Monday, June 02, 1997 17:17 PM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
no repeats
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com> |
| Subject: | Lead with the rudder! |
Sorry about the multiple posts yesterday - not sure what happened.
(don't want to get off on the wrong foot on a new list)
Flew the Piet for about an hour last night. My turns were keeping
the ball busy (about +- 5 degrees).
After I landed I talked to a 'Funk' pilot and he demonstrated the
'lead with the rudder' concept for initiating a turn. I guess my
tail wheel time in a Cub and 500 hours in my Tri-Pacer didn't
teach me much!
November 27, 1996 - June 03, 1997
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-aa