Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ab

June 03, 1997 - October 14, 1997



      Are there any other list members in the Central Texas area?
      I will be at the Bartllesville Biplane flyin this weekend in the
      Tri-Pacer (White and Blue N4540A).
      If any body else is there stop by!
      Kevin
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <mcnarry(at)accnet.assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: test post
Date: Jun 03, 1997
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: test post
no repeats >yea! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles)
Subject: Re: test post
Date: Jun 04, 1997
>To: Pietenpol Discussion >From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles) >Subject: Re: test post > >Steve, >Received your test post ok along with 15 repeat 15 copies from Kevin Macdonald. >My Piet is about 85% complete with the left wing finished today, and a start on the right wing. When I say finished I actually mean ready for covering. I have what I consider to be a major problem and I am wondering if anyone else has experienced it, and if so what the fix is. > >When I tension the elevator cables,control column to bellcrank, as soon as the cables move toward the up elevator position, the cables go very slack, and I mean slack. Everything is as per Orrin Hoopman's drawings and I haverepeatedly checked and rechecked my measurements. I am wracking my brains to find a solution but so far to no avail. Am I missing somthing here? Can anyone out there HELP. > >Peter. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: test post
Date: Jun 04, 1997
Peter Knowles wrote: > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles) > >Subject: Re: test post > > > >Steve, > >Received your test post ok along with 15 repeat 15 copies from Kevin > Macdonald. > >My Piet is about 85% complete with the left wing finished today, and > a > start on the right wing. When I say finished I actually mean ready for > > covering. I have what I consider to be a major problem and I am > wondering if > anyone else has experienced it, and if so what the fix is. > > > >When I tension the elevator cables,control column to bellcrank, as > soon as > the cables move toward the up elevator position, the cables go very > slack, > and I mean slack. Everything is as per Orrin Hoopman's drawings and I > haverepeatedly checked and rechecked my measurements. I am wracking my > > brains to find a solution but so far to no avail. Am I missing > somthing > here? Can anyone out there HELP. > > > >Peter. Peter, At first stab, I would asume that your walking bar is mispostioned when the stick and elevator are neutral. I don't have any slack in my controls. My walking bar is tilted about 25 degrees counter clockwise from vertical (\) looking at the fuse from the port side. It would also help to know where and which cables go slack. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Repeat messages
Date: Jun 04, 1997
For those of you relatively new to the list, repeat messages occasionally happen. It is not the fault of the sender, rather the mail server that I use. I have done my best to fix the problem, but I cannot get rid of it. The problem stems from the fact that we have so many users that mail going through the system sometimes times out before mail is sent to all participants, thus it starts again at the top of the list and resends. To help this problem I have tried to limit the number of participants and also weed out bad addresses. You can help by sending me a message to unsubscribe when you no longer want to be on the list. Also if you are a sys admin with the capability of taking over this list on a more powerful machine I would be glad to give it up to you. Email me if you are in this position. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Slack in the cables
Date: Jun 04, 1997
I have what I consider to be a major problem and I am wondering if >anyone else has experienced it, and if so what the fix is. >>When I tension the elevator cables,control column to bellcrank, as soon as >the cables move toward the up elevator position, the cables go very slack, >and I mean slack. Everything is as per Orrin Hoopman's drawings and I >haverepeatedly checked and rechecked my measurements. I am wracking my>brains to find a solution but so far to no avail. Am I missing somthing Peter. Peter- According to Frank Pavliga this is a normal part of the geometry layout of the Piet elev. control system. I had fits with the same thing until checking this out w/ other owners. With turnbuckles in both the up and down elev. cables you can get a happy medium of tension in each cable (still some slack though) If you try to make them too tight you just never can get full up elev. They bind up too soon. Pulley guards over your cables will help you sleep better too. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <mcnarry(at)accnet.assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: test post
Date: Jun 04, 1997
________________________________________________________________________________
From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles)
Subject: Re: Re: test post
>To: Pietenpol Discussion >From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles) >Subject: Re: test post > >Steve, >Received your test post ok along with 15 repeat 15 copies from Kevin Macdonald. >My Piet is about 85% complete with the left wing finished today, and a start on the right wing. When I say finished I actually mean ready for covering. I have what I consider to be a major problem and I am wondering if anyone else has experienced it, and if so what the fix is. > >When I tension the elevator cables,control column to bellcrank, as soon as the cables move toward the up elevator position, the cables go very slack, and I mean slack. Everything is as per Orrin Hoopman's drawings and I haverepeatedly checked and rechecked my measurements. I am wracking my brains to find a solution but so far to no avail. Am I missing somthing here? Can anyone out there HELP. > >Peter. Hi Peter: It might help to think of the cables as a parallelogram and the positioning of the pivot on the walking beam to the cable attach points must be the same as the elevator hinge line to the control horn's cable attach points. I met a Mr. ? Price (from Kansas) at Brodhead last year he had excellent drawings that addressed this problem. He also moved the pivot of the walking beam up and the cables didn't rest on the horizontal stab., with the stick full forward. John Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: Elevator cable slack
Date: Jun 04, 1997
Peter, The Pietenpol I have also has a similar problem. When my dad first bought it (1972) we discovered the bellcrank in the rear of the fuselage was installed backwards (or so we thought) and we flipped it over. This greatly improved the situation but did not completely solve it. The plane underwent some major repairs recently and I noticed the problem still exists. I forget how bad it was before so I can't compare the slack. Most of the slack in my plane was (and is) between the bellcrank and elevators while yours is in the forward part of the system. Perhaps others in the group can provide more input.... Thanks to Steve for cleaning up the repeat messages and such! It is looking much better. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Knowles[SMTP:peknow(at)midcoast.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Re: test post
>To: Pietenpol Discussion >From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles) >Subject: Re: test post > >Steve, >Received your test post ok along with 15 repeat 15 copies from Kevin Macdonald. >My Piet is about 85% complete with the left wing finished today, and a start on the right wing. When I say finished I actually mean ready for covering. I have what I consider to be a major problem and I am wondering if anyone else has experienced it, and if so what the fix is. > >When I tension the elevator cables,control column to bellcrank, as soon as the cables move toward the up elevator position, the cables go very slack, and I mean slack. Everything is as per Orrin Hoopman's drawings and I haverepeatedly checked and rechecked my measurements. I am wracking my brains to find a solution but so far to no avail. Am I missing somthing here? Can anyone out there HELP. > >Peter. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Graham Hansen <grhans(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Elevator cable tension problems
Date: Jun 04, 1997
Peter, I encountered the same problems with my Piet when I built it back in 1970. Some tinkering reduced the simultaneous slackening and tightening of both the forward and aft elevator cables and I flew it that way for three years with no problems except at the extreme limits of elevator travel. Tension changes were minimal up to about 25 to 30 degrees of travel either way and any extra deflection was not required because Pietenpol elevators are POWERFUL, re- quiring little movement to get a reaction. As designed, Pietenpols have no elevator stops. I wanted to limit the elevator travel with stops because of the variable cable tension problem and the fact that it is considered good aeronautical practice to incorporate control stops. Ideally, these should be located at the control surface itself, but the light construction of Pietenpol elevators precluded this. So I welded adjustable stops to the torque tube just ahead of, and behind, the rear stick. With these, the travel is 32 degrees up and 25 degrees down. There is no lack of elevator authority and the variable tension problem is minimised (but not totally elimin- ated). I have flown this setup for nearly 600 hours with no problems. I hope this may help you solve your problem. Graham > From: Peter Knowles > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: test post > Date: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 8:32 PM > > > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles) > >Subject: Re: test post > > > >Steve, > >Received your test post ok along with 15 repeat 15 copies from Kevin Macdonald. > >My Piet is about 85% complete with the left wing finished today, and a > start on the right wing. When I say finished I actually mean ready for > covering. I have what I consider to be a major problem and I am wondering if > anyone else has experienced it, and if so what the fix is. > > > >When I tension the elevator cables,control column to bellcrank, as soon as > the cables move toward the up elevator position, the cables go very slack, > and I mean slack. Everything is as per Orrin Hoopman's drawings and I > haverepeatedly checked and rechecked my measurements. I am wracking my > brains to find a solution but so far to no avail. Am I missing somthing > here? Can anyone out there HELP. > > > >Peter. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: searching for vac t&b and alt.
Date: Jun 04, 1997
I would like to purchase a 3 and 1/8" vacume turn and bank and a two needle altimeter that are very reasonably priced Ernie Hagness 2337 Willow Dr. Portland Texas 78374 ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: replicraft aviation
Date: Jun 04, 1997
Steve speidel ,from replicraft aviation posted an offer to reproduce piet parts ect. Lost your e mail address steve would like to chat with you about subject .could not find your e mail address on the net. ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net Ernie Hagness 2337 Willow Dr. Portland, Texas 78374 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: replicraft aviation
Date: Jun 05, 1997
ernest l. hagness wrote: > Steve speidel ,from replicraft aviation posted an offer to reproduce > piet parts ect. Lost your e mail address steve would like to chat with > > you about subject .could not find your e mail address on the net. > ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net Ernie Hagness 2337 Willow Dr. > Portland, > Texas 78374 Ernest, are you looking for Steve Speidel or Steve E? stevee(at)byu.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: replicraft aviation
Date: Jun 05, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > ernest l. hagness wrote: > > > Steve speidel ,from replicraft aviation posted an offer to reproduce > > piet parts ect. Lost your e mail address steve would like to chat with > > > > you about subject .could not find your e mail address on the net. > > ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net Ernie Hagness 2337 Willow Dr. > > Portland, > > Texas 78374 > > Ernest, are you looking for Steve Speidel or Steve E? > > stevee(at)byu.edu Steve E. Sorry I was not too clear on my ID. Was looking for SteveSpeidel of replicraft.I have found an old letter from him so I now have the information I needed. I have been on the road for five weeks that included a visit to oshkosh and the mail ect got out of hand and I had pitched a bunch of paper out along with the many "you may be a winner " letters from Ed McMahon.After a search of this mountain of trash I located the lost letter. Ed went on to the recycle unopened this am. Thanks. Ernie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Alternative coverings
Date: Jun 06, 1997
Still looking for alternative coverings. I am going to do some experimentation on my own with what I know about latex acrilic paints. Fuel resistance is about my only concern at this point. Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil
Subject: re: Alternative coverings
Date: Jun 06, 1997
Steve, How do you plan on providing UV protection? Dave ------------- Original Text ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge , on 6/6/97 12:35 PM:
Still looking for alternative coverings. I am going to do some experimentation on my own with what I know about latex acrilic paints. Fuel resistance is about my only concern at this point. Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Alternative coverings
Date: Jun 06, 1997
I think I missed the start of this thread but... If you are looking for paint to use over Dacron - assuming it is through silver then the toughest is probably Stits Aerothane (a polyurethane). I have this on my Tri-Pacer and it tough stuff. It is virtually fuel proof, and more resistant to lacquer thinner, acetone, battery acid and MEK than anything I have seen. the down side is that it is hard to apply well, hard to repair, and is heavy. Hope I didn't miss the topic completely. ~ktm Steve Eldredge wrote: > Still looking for alternative coverings. I am going to do some > experimentation on my own with what I know about latex acrilic > paints. > Fuel resistance is about my only concern at this point. > > Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Emelita W
Subject: test
Date: Jun 06, 1997
test ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Alternative coverings
Date: Jun 09, 1997
Kevin McDonald wrote: > I think I missed the start of this thread but... > If you are looking for paint to use over Dacron - assuming it is > through > > silver then the toughest is probably Stits Aerothane (a polyurethane). > > I have this on my Tri-Pacer and it tough stuff. It is virtually fuel > proof, > and more resistant to lacquer thinner, acetone, battery acid and MEK > than anything I have seen. the down side is that it is hard to apply > well, > hard to repair, and is heavy. > Hope I didn't miss the topic completely. > ~ktm > > Steve Eldredge wrote: > > > Still looking for alternative coverings. I am going to do some > > experimentation on my own with what I know about latex acrilic > > paints. > > > Fuel resistance is about my only concern at this point. > > > > > Steve E. Kevin, and all, I am trying to come up with a coating system that will eleviate the financial burden of having to use a STC'ed type of covering. Covering a piet with the PolyFiber system is going to cost about $2000 or so. Since I only have about $3500 in to my whole airplane (including engine) this is not a real tempting way to go. There have been several examples of other painting procedures that have cost around 1-200 bucks with satisfactory results. Craig Aho painted his piet with a foam roller and polyurethane for about $150-- and won an award up at Arlington (I think.) This is the direction that I have in mind to go. Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Alternative coverings
Date: Jun 09, 1997
dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil wrote: > Steve, > > How do you plan on providing UV protection? > > Dave > ------------- > Original Text > From: Steve Eldredge , on 6/6/97 12:35 PM: > Still looking for alternative coverings. I am going to do some > experimentation on my own with what I know about latex acrilic paints. > > Fuel resistance is about my only concern at this point. > High grade exterior piant is all UV protected. I talked at length to a Sherwin Williams distributor before the weekend and he verified the fact. In addition, the first primer/filler coats are done in flat black. The high carbon content is a great UV inhibitor. After the first coat on my fabric, which was very light, I can hardly see any light comming through. STevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: lodging
Date: Jun 11, 1997
Hi Tom, Thanks for your strut drawing. It's very similar to the way Jack Watson has done his with the exception that he has no welding. He has simply put the end fittings in place with bolts and washers on the inside to spread the fittings. I've now sanded the fuselage twice and painted the primer for the third time. It's pretty smooth, but I'm debating sanding again. All other parts have been prime twice and sanded once. This sure is a lot of work. Last night I've started top prime one wing. First I prime over the tapes to help blend in the edges, then the remainer. I can't sand the edges as if nitrate dope was used because my tapes are glued down with a latex glue. This would ruin the integrity of the glue joint of the tape and would most likely start to lift at the edges. I haven't performed any test as yet with the nitrate over the blue river primer. I'm still holding my breath on that one. I hope it works out othewrwise I'm out $480.00 CDN. Anyway whether you drive or fly I'll have my trailer there and you are welcome to stay with me. My family can't come this year. Cristina has to study for finals. I decided not to fly I feel guilty taking the plane for the weekend and not having put any maintenance effort into it while a new member has done a lot. However he may fly to Brussels for the day. Check with Earl on those gears before you come up. Regards, Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Laytex coatings
Date: Jun 12, 1997
Looking through Sport Aviation and Kitplanes completions section, I have found and contacted a couple of builders who have used Exterior Laytex over fabric. Last night I called Bill Brown, a Minimax builder who has been flying for 1.5 years with a laytex coatings. I gleened some very good information from him that I thought I might pass on. Bill used the superflite system fabric and cements. The first coating was Benjamin Moore impervex Flat Black Exterior paint. This seals and fills the weave, and provides UV protection. The following coat was 3 to 1 black to white. The reason for the mix is to provide a lighter color base for light color coats. I have also seen one example of going with a straigh white for the second coat. Following are very light coats of the colors of your choice. Standard colors are best, because you take your chances on custom mixes being the same shade if you have to go back for more paint. Bill said that he used 5 light coats on the blue he used and 6 for the yellow. Concerning durability, Bill said that very small cracks were developing next the rib cap strips. He did mention that the cap strips were only1/4" wide and there was no rib lacing. The airplane is hangared. Paint was applied with at foam brush in very light coats. I asked about fuel resistance and he said that it wasn't a concern, and that a non-petroleum based wax helps shed any spilled fluids. I plan on spraying this weekend. I guess time will tell if this is really a good way to go. Any other tips or experience here? please post it! Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John m. Greenlee" <104443.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Leading edge
Date: Jun 12, 1997
I initially glued the leading edge (split round stair rail) on by just glueing to the nose of each rib. However, some of the glue joints have n= ot held, so it became clear to me that there is not enough glueing surface t= o hold the leading edge in this manner. The plans show using #8 machine screws to bolt the leading edge to the ribs. I figured I ought to go back now and add these fasteners. I wonde= r, though, if hardware store bolts are good enough for this purpose, or is there any loading in this area. Are a/c grade #8 machine screws in order= here? What do y'all think? John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Leading edge
Date: Jun 12, 1997
John m. Greenlee wrote: > I initially glued the leading edge (split round stair rail) on by just > > glueing to the nose of each rib. However, some of the glue joints > have not > held, so it became clear to me that there is not enough glueing > surface to > hold the leading edge in this manner. > > The plans show using #8 machine screws to bolt the leading edge to the > > ribs. I figured I ought to go back now and add these fasteners. I > wonder, > though, if hardware store bolts are good enough for this purpose, or > is > there any loading in this area. Are a/c grade #8 machine screws in > order > here? > > What do y'all think? > > John I used #8 stainless 1 3/4" countersunk screws bolted through the LE to the rib. Stainless just becaus if I ever want to get them out I don't want corrosion to have found it's way in. stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jholgate <jholgate(at)Southtech.net>
Subject: Re: Laytex coatings
Date: Jun 12, 1997
Steve, Using the laytex sounds like a good idea. I was wondering if any of the people you contacted used any type of flex agent to avoid the cracks you mentioned? Or can you even use them with this type of paint? Also, how are you able to spray with this "thick" paint? Jack ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Laytex coatings
Date: Jun 13, 1997
> From Steve_Eldredge(at)byu.edu Thu Jun 12 23:37:07 1997 > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:30:29 -0700 > From: jholgate <jholgate(at)Southtech.net> > Subject: Re: Laytex coatings > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) (via Mercury MTS v1.30 (NDS)) > X-Listname: > Content-Length: 281 > > Steve, > Using the laytex sounds like a good idea. I was wondering if any of > the people you contacted used any type of flex agent to avoid the cracks > you mentioned? Or can you even use them with this type of paint? Also, > how are you able to spray with this "thick" paint? > Jack > A Wagner or similar airless spray gun will give a beautiful satiny finish with semi gloss latex. Rather like the "classic" dope finishes. Gotta be careful with it. I'm not so sure about a finish that develops cracks after a year and a half of inside storage though. Any fabric covered wing has a lot of flex along the ribs as the fabric bulges up in flight. John Kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Laytex coatings
Date: Jun 13, 1997
The folks at Fisher Aero say that over thier primer laytex coats they spray on DuPont Dulux automotive enamel color. They stressed that the system will last a long time without cracking if you avoid totally filling the fabric weave. You will get a nice satin finish, but if looking for a full glossy coat it will greatly decrease the chances of staying pretty. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Latex coatings
Date: Jun 13, 1997
> > > A Wagner or similar airless spray gun will give a beautiful satiny > finish > with semi gloss latex. Rather like the "classic" dope finishes. > Gotta > be careful with it. > > I'm not so sure about a finish that develops cracks after a year and a > > half of inside storage though. Any fabric covered wing has a lot of > flex > along the ribs as the fabric bulges up in flight. > > John Kahn Admittedly John, we are not going for show class finishes here. Bill Brown did say that the cracks were very small. Not visible unless you are looking very close. I'd like to know if he used tapes over his ribs. I can't imagine that he didn't, but, I'm hoping that with reinforcing tape, rib lacing and 2" wide tapes fully wetted out will minimize flexing in this area. As far as flex agent goes, exterior latex is designed to be flexible to meet the demands of heat, humidity and shrinkage of wood on outside surfaces of homes. We will see. Stevee. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Laytex coatings
Date: Jun 16, 1997
Hmm.. I have not had experience with other than FAA certificated covings but one idea is to cover one tail surface all the way through and see how it goes. Let it dry for a week or so, check the flexibility, hit it with a maule tester at 80 pounds to see if it debonds from the fabric etc. It is easy to recover a tail section but the wing or fuselage is a huge job... Just a thought. Kevin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Laytex coatings
Date: Jun 16, 1997
>Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:17:53 -0400 >From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> >Subject: Re: Laytex coatings >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >The folks at Fisher Aero say that over thier primer laytex coats they >spray on DuPont Dulux automotive enamel color. They stressed that >the system will last a long time without cracking if you avoid totally >filling the fabric weave. You will get a nice satin finish, but if looking >for a full glossy coat it will greatly decrease the chances of staying >pretty. Mike C. > > I've seen several of their planes and they look great. Mike Fisher told me they prime it with black exterior latex house paint and then use DuPont Dulux. Both are sprayed on with either a traditional paint gun or using HVLP. Mike also said that DuPont Dulux is getting hard to find because it is lead based. Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Check out my updated webpage
Date: Jun 20, 1997
I have added content to my webpage including some photo's of Dwayne Woolsey's Air Camper check out http://steve.byu.edu stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dick Dery <dickdery(at)teleport.com>
Subject: Engine mount fittings
Date: Jun 21, 1997
I'm getting ready to glue my fuselage halves together, but I was wondering about the engine mounts. Do they have to be fitted on the fuselage before they're joined, or can they be attached after the fuselage is assembled? The upper mounts probably could be attached any time, but the lower mounts have a flap that looks like it would interfere with the placement of the lower cross strut. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John m. Greenlee" <104443.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Engine mount fittings
Date: Jun 23, 1997
I don't see any reason why you should not go ahead and join your fuselage= sides. I used a router to cut the ends off the lower cross strut (with ply firewall in place) in order to mount lower mounts. In other words I cut slots through the firewall/lower cross strut to accomodate the inside low= er motor mounts. Works fine. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Emelita W
Subject: Your cost to build.
Date: Jun 23, 1997
I havent written anything in a while but we want to know how much it will cost us to build using a direct drive Soob ea81 engine. Thank you and hi again Emelita W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Check out my updated webpage
Date: Jun 23, 1997
>I have added content to my webpage including some photo's of Dwayne >Woolsey's Air Camper > >check out > >http://steve.byu.edu > >stevee > Steve- See, I told everyone at work I wasn't the only guy with a wing panel in my living room :) Both your and Dwayne's projects look good. Could you tell me how many coats of color he sprayed ? Did he use the DuPont Dulux automotive enamel ? I think you said polyurethane though on the homepage. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Your cost to build.
Date: Jun 23, 1997
Emelita W wrote: > I havent written anything in a while but we want to know how much it > will cost us to build using a direct drive Soob ea81 engine. > > Thank you and hi again > Emelita W $7241.34 Including freight for the instruments shipped from JCWhitney. stevee. :) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Third Annual Grass Roots Flyin at Hearts
Date: Jun 24, 1997
Hi Brian, Here's the Flyin particulars, and it's not Hearts Content in Newfoundland (oh yes today is the 500th anniversary of John Cabot's discovery of Newfoundland). Who: Held by R.A.A. Toronto Region Date: August 8, 9, and 10th, 1997 Place: Dundalk, Ontario, Canada N44 deg. 11', W80 deg.21.5' Runways:Turf 05/23 1500' x 110', (wires on approach to runway 23) Elevation: 1700' Radio Frequency: 123.2 Details: Nick Bruzzese @ (905) 453-5408 On field telephone: (519) 923-9870 Fuel: None on the field, Please don't flyin on fumes. A/C Types: Homebuilts, Ultralights, Antiques, Production, Surprises? Camping: On the Field $10.00/ site. Planned Activities: Bar-B-Q and campfire Saturday night ( stories will be provided by the membership and visitors at large). FLYIN: FREE. Gate: $5.00. Take Hwy.10 N past Shelbourne to Dundalk Road #9. Turn right to 2nd line of Melancthon. Turn right onto 2nd line (south) and go to second house on the West side. You can see the runway and the windsock from the road. Please come, bring your family for the weekend. Regards, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John m. Greenlee" <104443.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Your cost to build.
Date: Jun 24, 1997
You know, when I first started this project, I thought a lot about cost t= o build and it concerned me somewhat whether I could pay for it etc. The project has now stretched to nearly five years and still going, though I am nearing the covering stage. The cost has ended up being stretched over such a long period of time that it has not been as significant as expecte= d. Some things I did to control costs: Most of my lumber is lumber yard stuff. The only pieces of certificated lumber are the longerons and the spars, and those are not absolutely necessary to be certified if you can find a lot of good lumber yard stuff. I used some 'bargain bags of spruc= e' from A/C S&S. Great lumber to cut various braces, etc. from. The wing leading edge is 1 1/4" full round douglas fir molding (stair rail). Gussets are from that Finland gl-2 birch a/c ply. The floor and sides ar= e Baltic birch marine ply. Friends have given me old instruments they were= not going to use, used turnbuckles, etc. A number of the shackles have been replaced with moter-sickle chain master links. The areas you are going to spend some dollar bills that you probably haven't thought about, especially if this is your first ship: Turnbuckle= s. I have counted up 38 turnbuckles in my ship once it is completed. List price is about 10 bucks a piece. Scrounge them. Come to know and love B= &B Aircraft Supply. Shackles cost four to six bucks a piece list. Covering= =2E I plan to use the Poly Fibre system as it appears to me to produce the be= st results for a beginner. No matter how fine the woodwork, etc is, all mos= t people will see is the fabric, and dang it, I want it to look good. The bid I have had for materials is something like 1600-1700 bucks. The up side is the way airplane prices keep climbing, I have heard of nic= e Model A Piets selling for 13000-15000 bucks. (Probably values your time building at about .50/hr.) So, at least you have a nice asset when finished. Hope this sheds a little light on the cost subject. I haven't added my costs up, (don't want to) but I think they are in line with Steve's. I a= m using a Model A, so think I have less than two grand in the motor. See y'all at Brodhead! John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Your cost to build.
Date: Jun 24, 1997
John m. Greenlee wrote: > Hope this sheds a little light on the cost subject. I haven't added > my > costs up, (don't want to) but I think they are in line with Steve's. > I am > using a Model A, so think I have less than two grand in the motor. > > See y'all at Brodhead! > > John Actually my costs right now are at about $3800, including everything but the cowl and a new tach. My previous post was a little tounge in cheek, but the joke is on me I guess. I have just finished the painting with latex this weekend. I am pleased with the results, but learned plenty in the process. I post further notes on my homepage and here when I get time to put it all together. STevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca>
Subject: Re: Third Annual Grass Roots Flyin at Hearts
Date: Jun 24, 1997
Hi, > > Hi Brian, > Here's the Flyin particulars, and it's not Hearts Content in > Newfoundland (oh yes today is the 500th anniversary of John Cabot's > discovery of Newfoundland). Bummer, I already booked my vacation to Hearts Content, Newfoundland! You did have me wondering, though. Being probably the only one on this list who has actually flown into Hearts Content, Newfoundland, I was thinking that everone would have to start shopping for FLOATS ;-). Happy 500th! Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Check out my updated webpage
Date: Jun 26, 1997
Michael D Cuy wrote: > >I have added content to my webpage including some photo's of Dwayne > >Woolsey's Air Camper > > > >check out > > > >http://steve.byu.edu > > > >stevee > > > Steve- See, I told everyone at work I wasn't the only guy with a > wing > panel in my living room :) Both your and Dwayne's projects look > good. > Could you tell me how many coats of color he sprayed ? Did he use > the DuPont Dulux automotive enamel ? I think you said polyurethane > though on the homepage. Mike C. Mike, sorry, it was really acrylic enamal. It is a product like the Dupont Dulux line, but it is supposed to be better and It is called Nason brand. I think he did about 2-3 coats. stevee Michael D Cuy wrote: >I have added content to my webpage including some photo's of Dwayne >Woolsey's Air Camper > >check out > >http://steve.byu.edu > >stevee > Steve- See, I told everyone at work I wasn't the only guy with a wing panel in my living room :) Both your and Dwayne's projects look good. Could you tell me how many coats of color he sprayed ? Did he use the DuPont Dulux automotive enamel ? I think you said polyurethane though on the homepage. Mike C. Mike, sorry, it was really acrylic enamal. It is a product like the Dupont Dulux line, but it is supposed to be better and It is called Nason brand. I think he did about 2-3 coats. stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jun 27, 1997
Wow, Did you see the eight page spread on Piets! Haven't had time to read it yet, but is sure is impressive. About 8 pages. Definate addition to my favorite issue pile! Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Emelita W
Subject: Anyone use a direct dirve Soob ?
Date: Jun 27, 1997
Has anyone used a direct drive Soob EA81 in there Piet?? How did it perform? Did it take a long runway? ETC ETC! Thank you Emelita W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone use a direct dirve Soob ?
Date: Jun 27, 1997
Emelita W wrote: > > Has anyone used a direct drive Soob EA81 in there Piet?? > How did it perform? > Did it take a long runway? > ETC ETC! Not I, but I did once chat with Merle Neyman (of Ohio?), who has a Piet with an EA-81 and one of Dave Johnson's Reductions, Inc., redrives. He had gone with what then was the middle of three available ratios, something more suitable for a moderately fast airplane, and regretted it. Said he needed a higher-ratio reduction, which now is available only as a special order. The worst symptom was his climb rate, which he found very disappointing. Unfortunately, I've forgotten all the hard numbers, but it did not argue well for putting a direct-drive engine on it. Pretty much the same problem you'd have with a VW--tiny prop, high rpms, and no thrust worth mentioning. Of course, if anyone has managed to make a direct-drive Soob work on a Piet, I'd love to hear about it! Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jun 28, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Wow, > > Did you see the eight page spread on Piets! Haven't had time to read it Got it! Looking forward to sitting down in a quite corner and soaking up some "real culture"... Gary... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles)
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jun 29, 1997
>Wow, > >Did you see the eight page spread on Piets! Haven't had time to read it >yet, but is sure is impressive. About 8 pages. Definate addition to my >favorite issue pile! > >Stevee > >Which issue? Kitplanes doesnFrom: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jun 29, 1997
Peter Knowles wrote: > > >Wow, > > > >Did you see the eight page spread on Piets! Haven't had time to read > reach Australia for about two months. I > normally pick it up and thumb through it but put it down again if It's the August issue. Real good article... Just when I thought about doing away with my Kitplane subscription, I get a surprise! Guess I'll renew for another year now... Gary... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dick Dery <dickdery(at)teleport.com>
Subject: Extended fuselage question
Date: Jun 30, 1997
The extended fuselage drawings show what appears to be a piece 11 3/4" below the top longeron, between the two front uprights. I think this is the 1.25"x1.5" ash engine support. Is this piece notched and bolted as it is for the Model A Piet, or is it glued between the 2 uprights. is this support the base for the forward fuselage cutout, or is another piece used for that? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil
Subject: What is the stretched Piet?
Date: Jul 01, 1997
What is the reason for the stretched Piet and who sells the plans, Orrin or Don? Thanks, Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: What is the stretched Piet?
Date: Jul 02, 1997
>What is the reason for the stretched Piet and who sells the plans, Orrin or >Don? > >Thanks, >Dave Dave- Other members please correct this info if in error: Bernard Pietenpol lengthened the Piet in the 1960's to accommodate lighter engines like the Corvair and 65 hp Continental. (My motor mount plans are dated by Pietenpol in 1966 for the Cont. 65.....available thru Bernard's son Donald Pietenpol.) I think you get about 4" more in the front cockpit, a few in the rear cockpit and some in the tail. I want to say a total of about 9" to 10". All Piet plans and other info can be purchased thru Donald Pietenpol Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jul 02, 1997
Geez, our drugstores only carry the July issue so far. I'll have to snag somebody with a subscription. (don't you love all the folks who visist your Piet project and want to know where you got your kit ?) OK- Fabric question: what's the treatment you used around control horn exits, etc. Did you PRE-shrink the fabric and tack it up with a coat of poly tak first and then glue it down or did you use the fabric 'as is' and glue it down ? Thanks- mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jul 02, 1997
Michael D Cuy wrote: > Geez, our drugstores only carry the July issue so far. I'll have to > > snag > somebody with a subscription. > > (don't you love all the folks who visist your Piet project and want to > > know > where you got your kit ?) > > OK- Fabric question: what's the treatment you used around control > horn exits, etc. Did you PRE-shrink the fabric and tack it up with > a coat of poly tak first and then glue it down or did you use the > fabric > 'as is' and glue it down ? Thanks- mc On fabric. cover the part and shrink the fabric to 350 degrees. Then make a gussett of preshrunk fabric (225-250degrees) and apply with polybrush. Let dry and do a second coat. One thing that really helps is to apply the gusset in a bias to the protrusion. This makes the shrinking process much easier. After the second application of poly brush is dry, shrink evenly around the protrusion. I lapped the fabric up about 3/8" on the horn itself for better adhesion. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jul 02, 1997
Michael D Cuy wrote: > > Geez, our drugstores only carry the July issue so far. I'll have to snag > somebody with a subscription. > > (don't you love all the folks who visist your Piet project and want to know > where you got your kit ?) > > OK- Fabric question: what's the treatment you used around control > horn exits, etc. Did you PRE-shrink the fabric and tack it up with > a coat of poly tak first and then glue it down or did you use the fabric > 'as is' and glue it down ? Thanks- mc My vote is to pre-shrink... Gary... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jul 02, 1997
Mike, I used the pre-shrink method and just glued it on with fabric cement. I was out in the Piet for about an Hour and a half last evening. It was perfectly smooth. The only bumps were when I hit my own wake. The Piet is so much fun to fly I haven't been doing any cleaning or working on it and ect. just been flying a bunch around home. Your photo's look great. When do you think you'll be ready to fly? Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: fabric shrinking temp.
Date: Jul 03, 1997
Stevee wrote, "...shrink the fabric to 350 deg. ..." You've got to be careful of which fabric system you are using. The system I used must be shrunk at exactly 400 deg. or in time or on cool days the fabric relaxes (memory in the fibre) and you then have to wait untill the sun warms up the surface thereby temporarily shrinking it. this has happened to a friend of mine who used an regular iron that could only reach 385 deg. After 10 years he is now recovering. I took a regular iron apart to get to the calibration screw, placed it on a wad of fiberglass and a thermocouple and adjusted the temp. untill it stablized to 399.9 deg. This can be done for whatever temp. you need. Oh yes, don't use a candy thermometer to calibrate, they are not accurate. The one I had previously used was 100 deg. higher than the reading showed. Consequently I already have my first repair on the Piet. and it hasn't flown yet. Regards to all, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Test (please dont answer)
Date: Jul 03, 1997
1,2,3,4,5 testing... 1,2,3,4,5 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Test (please dont answer)
Date: Jul 03, 1997
Gary Gower wrote: > > 1,2,3,4,5 testing... 1,2,3,4,5 678910 read you ok ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Piet: Broadhead
Date: Jul 05, 1997
When is Broadhead? Where is Broadhead? I am flying to Oshkosh, Can I fly my '56 172 to Broadhead? How is the runway? Where do you sleep at Broadhead? What is the best day to attend Broadhead if one can only spend one day? Any other information I need to know? Thanks Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: scott
Subject: Re: Piet: Broadhead
Date: Jul 06, 1997
Barry Davis wrote: > > When is Broadhead? Should be the weekend of Aug 2,3 > > Where is Broadhead? Wisconsin, approx 42 36 N 89 22 W, Chicago section north side > > I am flying to Oshkosh, Can I fly my '56 172 to Broadhead? How is the runway? Listed as 2300 sod...that would be your call! > > Where do you sleep at Broadhead? Under a wing usually, bring tent. > > What is the best day to attend Broadhead if one can only spend one day? Don't know for sure, guessing Saturday...this will be my first trip to Brodhead (correct spelling). > > Any other information I need to know? You have to love Piets :) > > Thanks > Barry Davis > bed(at)mindspring.com Scott Aeronca 11CC N4181E (1947...yikes! It turns 50 in August! Older than I am by 15 years!!) -- Gotta Fly or Gonna Die ! --Ask me about my Aeronca Super Chief-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Paint
Date: Jul 07, 1997
Stevee, I'm just now where you were on Jun. 12/97. Just re-read your message to the discussion group on the subject of laytex paint. I've just this week-end finished spraying the clear nitrocelulose over Latex. When I first mixed it with thinner 50/50 in an old latex can I got worried. The solution did soften/disolve the cured latex on the upper side of the can. Without disturbing the mixture I quickly poured it into a clean container. I then spray tested a small removable access panel of my center section. There was no problem at all with the dope over the latex, since it dries so fast. I carried on and after two days of preperation and spraying the 1st nitro dope layer is complete. This is the same paint system that Brian Kenney has used. I looked at his paint at the Brussels, Ont. flyin and after 8-9 years he has not developed any cracks. The only problem Brian pointed out was with the registration markings which were painted in enamel in a darker color to the surrounding area. So? How did your paint turn out. What colors did you finally chose? Did you include any kind of design/ paint scheme? Regards, \ Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John m. Greenlee" <104443.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Scout
Date: Jul 08, 1997
Did y'all see Chad Wille's Scout in the new Sport Aviation? Beautiful! My idea of what a Scout should look like! Makes me want to build one after I finish my Air Camper! John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Your Progress
Date: Jul 08, 1997
Hi Tom, How's your progress going on covering? You've seen the blurb of my progress posted to the discustion group. With this cool weather the bottom of the fuselage has become a problem to dope. Last night the bottom was re-sanded and another coat of dope sprayed but the same problem re-occured (blushing) so it must be cooling too fast. Another characteristic in some places is a powdery effect. This usually happens when the gun is held too far away from the surface. I held it closer but the same problem occured. At least this is the (last) bottom surfaceof the fuselage. Tonight I'll sand it down again the wait for a little warmer weather. I pulled out my propeller carving machine , set it up to get ready for the next job, and in parallel i'll be preparing the lift struts. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert M. Bailey"
Subject: Wing Rib Material
Date: Jul 08, 1997
Hello all, I would like to know what materials people have successfully used for wing rib construction. I have been told that most folks use local (lumberyard) available woods. I can't find anything at my local yard that would be suitable, at least from my neophyte viewpoint. Thanks, Bob B. Missouri USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Material
Date: Jul 09, 1997
writes: Hello all, I would like to know what materials people have successfully used for wing rib construction. I have been told that most folks use local (lumberyard) available woods. I can't find anything at my local yard that would be suitable, at least from my neophyte viewpoint. Thanks, Bob B. Missouri USA Clear white pine worked for me. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Your Progress
Date: Jul 09, 1997
(BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC) writes: Hi Tom, How's your progress going on covering? You've seen the blurb of my progress posted to the discustion group. With this cool weather the bottom of the fuselage has become a problem to dope. Last night the bottom was re-sanded and another coat of dope sprayed but the same problem re-occured (blushing) so it must be cooling too fast. Another characteristic in some places is a powdery effect. This usually happens when the gun is held too far away from the surface. I held it closer but the same problem occured. At least this is the (last) bottom surfaceof the fuselage. Tonight I'll sand it down again the wait for a little warmer weather. I pulled out my propeller carving machine , set it up to get ready for the next job, and in parallel i'll be preparing the lift struts. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo The blushing and other dampness problems are at a place where most people don't know about. The problem lies in the air coming from the air compressor. You need a big drier to remove the moisture from the air. Them you will have no problems. You can spray when it is raining. You will need a drier about 5 feet tall and 1 foot around and holding half a barrel of dessicant. See Ted davis's at Brodhead. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Material
Date: Jul 09, 1997
>Hello all, >I would like to know what materials people have successfully used for >wing rib construction.... Bob- Being a home built you have great flexibility with material choices, but given a vote I'd choose sitka spruce from Wicks. (since you are so close it would arrive quickly too) Wing rib material is so cheap (even spruce) per foot. Things like spars and longerons will eat up your money though. I've had excellent service from Wicks and delivery has never been a problem. AC Spruce sometimes forgets. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John m. Greenlee" <104443.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Material
Date: Jul 09, 1997
>Hello all, >I would like to know what materials people have successfully used for >wing rib construction.... I think Charlie Rubeck uses western red cedar sawn from carefully selecte= d cedar fence boards. It is in ac 43.13 as an 'approved' species, is light= er than spruce, and is bound to be dirt cheap. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Blushing
Date: Jul 09, 1997
Thanks Jimv, Thanks for the information Jim, I think you're right. I did drain a couple of ounces from the compressor before the blushing occured but it may have acumulated again and in combination with the wind coming up the blushing occured. I do have a small water trap at the gun but it may be too small to perform it's job. I will buy or build a bigger water filter before I apply the color dope. this week-end looks very promising for painting. This is really getting exciting. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: wing rib materials
Date: Jul 09, 1997
Bob B. (Missouri), Hi Bob, I believe Charlie aslo usued yellow cedar for rib construction, although it is a little heavier. I personally purchased spar grade sitka spuce( approx. 6 X 16' ) that had a longditudinal crack in one end. This was purchased at a much reduced price but I was able to work around the crack, cut all my material from the one piece and saved a lot of money, but I know what I have is # 1 ribs. You may also purchase 2nd grade sitka for rib construction as long as your spars, Longerons and diagonals are #1 Grade sitka or other acceptible alternates. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Paint
Date: Jul 09, 1997
BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC wrote > So? How did your paint turn out. What colors did you finally chose? > Did you > include any kind of design/ paint scheme? > > Regards, \ > > Domenico Bellissimo I did spray the final color coats two weekends ago. I sprayed sherwin williams super paint high gloss with a Wagner 505 airless sprayer. The results were pleasing. I did learn some good lessons however. I will not spray in direct sunlight on a hot day again. They drying time is too fast for the paint to flow after it hits the surface. With the flat primer coats there was not a problem however. I rolled the fuse after it became aparrent that I had screwed up by applying to thick a coat. I thought all was a loss, but after the night passed and I came back too it I was happily surprised with the results. The fuse and vertical tail surfaces are Ivy green and the wings and horiz parts are Everest white. I am very pleased with how it is comming together. I looks great. I hope to have the lettering applied soon. I will do 24" N-number on the wings and the Pietenpol oval emblem on the sides. The emblem and small n-numbers will all be vinyl. Hopefully when I get done it will look like a brand new old airplane. Total cost in paint came to just over $100. Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert M. Bailey"
Subject: Sitka Spruce - was wing rib material
Date: Jul 09, 1997
Thanks to all that responded regarding my question about wing rib material. I have called Wicks and a catalog is on the way, and I'm going to check on the availability of western red cedar, yellow cedar and clear white pine. Now I have two questions: 1. What is AC 43.13 and where can I get one? 2. This morning I found a reference in the "Hot Line" column of the June issue of the EAA Experimenter regarding ac quality sika spuce. I contacted the supplier and was told that they sell selected, material cut to specifications any quanity up to 13 feet in length for a flat $6.50 a board foot plus shipping with no minimum order. Question, how does this compare with what others provide and charge? Bob B. - Missouri USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Sitka spruce
Date: Jul 10, 1997
Bob B. asked: For other price comparisons.? I can tell you what I paid for Alaskan Sitka Approx. 6 years ago. 1X6" X 16' (Qty one)=$265.00 Canadian or approx. $172.25 U.S. Hope this is of some help, if not it will give you an indication of the price increase over 6 years. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Vinal
Date: Jul 10, 1997
Stevee, >You mentioned you are applying small vinal numbers and a Pietenpol emblem. Where would you purchase these? Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert M. Bailey"
Subject: Sitka Spruce - was wing rib material
Date: Jul 10, 1997
This is a repeat transmission as I think the first one got lost. If you have already seen this please delete... Thanks to all that responded regarding my question about wing rib material. I have called Wicks and a catalog is on the way, and I'm going to check on the availability of western red cedar, yellow cedar and clear white pine. Now I have two questions: 1. What is AC 43.13 and where can I get one? 2. This morning I found a reference in the "Hot Line" column of the June issue of the EAA Experimenter regarding ac quality sika spuce. I contacted the supplier and was told that they sell selected, material cut to specifications any quanity up to 13 feet in length for a flat $6.50 a board foot plus shipping with no minimum order. Question, how does this compare with what others provide and charge? Bob B. - Missouri USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John m. Greenlee" <104443.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Sitka Spruce - was wing rib material
Date: Jul 10, 1997
Sounds cheap. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Vinal
Date: Jul 11, 1997
BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC wrote: > Stevee, > > >You mentioned you are applying small vinal numbers and a Pietenpol > emblem. > > Where would you purchase these? > > Regards, > > Domenico Bellissimo There are many sign makers in the area who have a sign machine that will cut them any size, any font up to 24". They will also do custom graphics as well. I have seen some of these folks advertise in kitplanes and sport aviation as well. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Vinyl Letters
Date: Jul 11, 1997
I am thinking about cutting some Piet emblems. I own a company called N. American Numbers. This company was set up to do custom aircraft and boats. I had four new showplanes at Sun n Fun this year. (Not my planes, but my graphics) I am planning to go to Brodhead on Saturday this year and see what type of stuff we need for our Piets. Maybe I will post them in the BPA newsletter. I just bought a Piet project about 45% complete and this is my first time to Brodhead. Can't hardly wait. PS. If you use a local sign shop, make sure you get High- performance vinyl. Most try to use the cheap stuff to save a buck. You can't tell by looking at it, but you sure can about one year later when it starts to shrink and fade and peel. Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bellissimod(at)cs.lsl.litton.com
Subject: Re: Vinal
Date: Jul 11, 1997
Thanks for the information Steve E. I bought a water separator for my compressor so I'm in business for the week-end. Last night I sanded the fuse for the last time. It looks real good. I hope the final finish comes out as good. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: peknow(at)midcoast.com.au (Peter Knowles)
Subject: Re: engine weights.
Date: Jul 12, 1997
Can any one advise me of the actual weight of the Model A complete with prop and radiator. As some of you know I am going to use the EA81 Subaru with a belt reduction drive and this is going to come out at about 210 pounds. How does this compare with ,say, the A65 or A90 and how much further forward is the engine going to have to be in order to get the Cof G right? I am aware that I can move the wing but I want to keep that in reserve for possible fine"tuning" of the trim. > >Peter in Oz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com>
Subject: Re: Vinyl Letters
Date: Jul 11, 1997
Barry Davis wrote: > I just bought a Piet project about 45% complete and this is my first > time to > Brodhead. Can't hardly wait. Barry, Last year was my first trip to Brodhead. Great place, great folks. I crawled all over/under/around the Piets taking photos of details. The photos havae paid off handsomely over the last year working on a fuselage. I suggest you consider doing the same. Happy travels, Dick Winkel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Brodhead
Date: Jul 14, 1997
Is Brodhead near the Cedar Grove just North of Chicago? I always thought Brodhead was in the West part of the State. Go figure> bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Paint
Date: Jul 15, 1997
Hi Tom, The color doping is only so so. I'm not too happy with the finish although I've not put the final coat on yet. There are some good areas where the sheen in the dope stands out, but the overspray, or humidity is affecting other areas. I'm sanding in between even though I hadn't planned on it. Consequently the surface is getting smooth but posibly heavier. I don't know how many coats of butyrate I should be applying. I've done two coats for sure but I've been flipping the Fuselage over on all sides and think I've lost count. I spent another 24 hrs. painting and sanding this past week-end. Anyway the humidity is going to be high all week so there goes another week. Saturday I tried an experiment after having installed a water separator on my air tank. I took a tube (ABS) about two inch dia. and capped both ends.drilled two holes close to each end. Inside I filled the container desicant with some fibre-glass cloth at the outlet end to keep the desicant from shooting up the air line. Pressurized the container and when it reached approx. 40 lbs. it exploded from the inlet end. Ann was standing near by and the noise made her jump at least 5 feet. Still think it will work. I've got to try this with some thicker end caps or steel pipe that can be screwed together. This should absorb any residual moisture downlie from the water separator and catch any oil from the compressor. I found even with the separator I was getting some black oilly stuff on the surface of the fuselage. It's either coming from the compressor or the separator itself? Next I'm going to try reducing the pressure at the gun an see if this reduces the overspray which I suspect is ruining what was previously applied. I sent you 'E'mail on Friday but It returned undelivered. I'm told there was a problem with 'Firewall' from my end. Firewall is an interesting term don't you think. It's the server that fires out the mail in post office. Regards, Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Brodhead
Date: Jul 17, 1997
writes: Is Brodhead near the Cedar Grove just North of Chicago? I always thought Brodhead was in the West part of the State. Go figure> bed(at)mindspring.com Brodhead is about halfway between Beloit and Monroe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Blushing
Date: Jul 17, 1997
(BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC) writes: Thanks Jimv, Thanks for the information Jim, I think you're right. I did drain a couple of ounces from the compressor before the blushing occured but it may have acumulated again and in combination with the wind coming up the blushing occured. I do have a small water trap at the gun but it may be too small to perform it's job. I will buy or build a bigger water filter before I apply the color dope. this week-end looks very promising for painting. This is really getting exciting. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo Draining liquid water from the bottom won't help much. You have GOT to remove the vapor water from the compressed air. This will require a large dryer with a lot of desicant in it. At least a bushel. The more the better. Take a look at Ted Davis's at Brodhead. WHOOPS, Ted has moved to his own strip about 5 miles east of Brodhead. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Cont/Lyc users: eyebrows
Date: Jul 17, 1997
I have just finished the installation of the eyebrows on my A-65 and now I wonder If they are really nessary. I looked at some planes and some have em and some don't. Kevin M.,- I noticed that you are running without them. Any temp problems? Do you have a CGT or just OT. Stevee. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Cont/Lyc users: eyebrows
Date: Jul 17, 1997
Put them on Steve. They are necessary to force the air between the cylinders and down the back. The cylinders need high velocity air forced through the fins by tight baffling to cool properly in the areas that don't get a direct blast of air from the front. Those areas will run hot if you leave the eyebrows out. There are people doing it, but it's bad for the cylinders in the long run. Sooner or later you will get cracks. John K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
Date: Jul 17, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > I have just finished the installation of the eyebrows on my A-65 and > now > I wonder If they are really nessary. > > I looked at some planes and some have em and some don't. > > Kevin M.,- I noticed that you are running without them. Any temp > problems? Do you have a CGT or just OT. Fried Cyinders:I do now!!! I retrofitted some J-3 eyebrows I got for free. They required some riveting etc. but the price was right. The reason I put eyebrows on? The engine has 250 hours since rebuild and has had 7 (yes seven) cylinders replaced. Mostly rear cylinders about every 40 - 75 hours. The Texas summer will eat up cylinders quickly if they aren't cooled well! I do plan on replacing the nonfunctional clock with a CHT for one of the back jugs. GPS: I just got back from Alaska in the Tri-Pacer. 85 hours, 43 fuel stops 10,000 miles in 10 days! We borrowed a Garmin 195 moving map GPS - very nice unit but at $1200 kinda pricey. I especially liked the ability to skirt class B/C airspace by cruising right outside the circle. Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more in the $600 range? With the difficulty of map reading in the Piet I think I will need to invest in one. I also have noticed that I fly the Piet at about 300 - 500 feet instead of 1000-2000 feet in the Tri-Pacer. At the lower altitude it only takes about 30 seconds to get lost - even when I'm flying in my well traveled area. This is off topic for the list so probably reply to me if you have a GPS pirep for me. ~ktm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
Date: Jul 17, 1997
Kevin McDonald wrote: great 7 jug replaced story deleted. > I do plan on replacing the nonfunctional clock with a CHT for > one of the back jugs. > > > Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more in the $600 > range? With the difficulty of map reading in the Piet I think I will > need to invest in one. I also have noticed that I fly the Piet at > about > 300 - 500 feet instead of 1000-2000 feet in the Tri-Pacer. At the > lower altitude it only takes about 30 seconds to get lost - even when > I'm flying in my well traveled area. > > This is off topic for the list so probably reply to me if you have a > GPS pirep for me. > > ~ktm May as well be here under the heading Pietenpol Navigation. I won't be going to Alaska, but I plan on using a GPS. I have used a couple lower ended models without the moving map. The one I will have is the the Garmin 12XL. It has all the functionality I will ever need and more. It will store about 250 waypoints and tracks 12 satilites simultaniously (sp). AND it runs only $249! There is also a full line of accessories too. ( not a such great pricing however.) Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: RE: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
Date: Jul 17, 1997
> Kevin McDonald asked - Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more >in the $600 range? I have a Garmin GPS 90. Currently use it in my Kitfox. It has moving map and I use it for the same thing you mentioned...skirting Special Use Airspace. I really like it and highly recommend it. You can also interface it with map software for your home PC. See this URL for more on that; http://www.delorme.com/StreetAtlasUSA/ >Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: test of new lists
Date: Jul 17, 1997
>>> Sorry about the flood today. I have split the list to try and resolve >>> the repeat problem. I also found a couple outdated email addresses. >>> We are up to over 60 members. Please drop me a line if you would like >>> to be removed from the list. > >By all means, keep me around if you'd be so kind. *Someday* I'll start, >after the bajillion furniture projects get out of the garage. > >>BTW cowl templates are about half done, and I decided to build my own >>carb heat box and save the $250. > >Cool! I trust this'll all find its way to your Web site? :-) > >BTW, does anyone have Domenic's new email address? I seem to have >misplaced it ;-) > > >Cheers, > > Steve Pugh > Senior Systems Engineer > Foundation Imaging > > I have never gone so fast "checking" my mail than Doimenic's mails he so kindly send me. Cant remember his address... :-0 No problem is part of the fun, keep the good work. Saludos (no more) :-(=09 EAA Chapter 1039 President ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI= legal Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the= GPS!) "Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian= Taber (When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: test of new lists
Date: Jul 17, 1997
>> Sorry about the flood today. I have split the list to try and resolve >> the repeat problem. I also found a couple outdated email addresses. >> We are up to over 60 members. Please drop me a line if you would like >> to be removed from the list. > >steve(at)byu.edu > >BTW cowl templates are about half done, and I decided to build my own >carb heat box and save the $250. > >Stevee > > Steve: If you have the chance to get your carg heat box welded wit TIG it will be beautifull. Larry, my brother, welded the one for his 1/2 VW and is "show quality". Keep on building Saludos (no more) :-(=09 EAA Chapter 1039 President ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI= legal Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the= GPS!) "Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian= Taber (When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Cont/Lyc users: eyebrows
Date: Jul 17, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > I have just finished the installation of the eyebrows on my A-65 and now > I wonder If they are really nessary. > > I looked at some planes and some have em and some don't. > > Kevin M.,- I noticed that you are running without them. Any temp > problems? Do you have a CGT or just OT. > > Stevee. The eyebrows are a must on the 65 cont . In addition ,dont forget the little baffles that go between the cylinders. Also, always put neverseeze onyour plug threads. The bottom rear plugs are the first to overheat and freeze in the cylinder. When this happens and you try to remove the plug, the insert will break loose from the cylinder and then it gets expensive. the cylinder then must be rebuilt. The continental has a small pin seated alongside the plug insert and you can not just replace the insert with an off the shelf helicoil. I know some fellows that just screw the insert back in with the plug that it is frozen to but I think this is only something that might be O K in an emergency but should be done right as soon as possible.I just had the two rear jugs rebuilt on my continental A80 as the fellow that owned the plane before me failed to use baffles and heat nor any chemical would get the plugs out .When I broke them loose the inserts came with the plugs and it got real expensive after that .CHT s are OK if they are working and put on correctly But proper baffls are the answer . Ernie Hagness ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 17, 1997
> > >GPS: > >Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more in the $600 >range? With the difficulty of map reading in the Piet I think I will >need to invest in one. I also have noticed that I fly the Piet at about >300 - 500 feet instead of 1000-2000 feet in the Tri-Pacer. At the >lower altitude it only takes about 30 seconds to get lost - even when >I'm flying in my well traveled area. > I have used a Garmin 90. Have not compared it to the 195, but it was sufficient to see the Class B and skirt it. Does not have the roads, etc. I want to look at the Lorance (sp?) because it has the roads, etc. and is supposed to have an OBSTRUCTIONS database. If that means radio and tv towers I definitely want one while flying my piet... Ted Brousseau / DOVE Naples, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
Date: Jul 18, 1997
kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com> writes:>Steve Eldredge wrote: > I have just finished the installation of the eyebrows on my A-65 and now I wonder If they are really nessary. I looked at some planes and some have em and some don't. Kevin M.,- I noticed that you are running without them. Any temp problems? Do you have a CGT or just OT. Fried Cyinders:I do now!!! I retrofitted some J-3 eyebrows I got for free. They required some riveting etc. but the price was right. The reason I put eyebrows on? The engine has 250 hours since rebuild and has had 7 (yes seven) cylinders replaced. Mostly rear cylinders about every 40 - 75 hours. The Texas summer will eat up cylinders quickly if they aren't cooled well! I do plan on replacing the nonfunctional clock with a CHT for one of the back jugs. GPS: I just got back from Alaska in the Tri-Pacer. 85 hours, 43 fuel stops 10,000 miles in 10 days! We borrowed a Garmin 195 moving map GPS - very nice unit but at $1200 kinda pricey. I especially liked the ability to skirt class B/C airspace by cruising right outside the circle. Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more in the $600 range? With the difficulty of map reading in the Piet I think I will need to invest in one. I also have noticed that I fly the Piet at about 300 - 500 feet instead of 1000-2000 feet in the Tri-Pacer. At the lower altitude it only takes about 30 seconds to get lost - even when I'm flying in my well traveled area. This is off topic for the list so probably reply to me if you have a GPS pirep for me. ~ktm By all means get a Garmin 90 for $525.00. I got one the other day and am exstatic (sp). JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Re: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
Date: Jul 18, 1997
Contact Art Penner at: "art Penner(at)sympatico.co" , for a gps report. He has a panasonic hand held with no moving map, just co-ordinates. It was working fine for him in his C-172 untill the owners of the plane splurged and bought a moving map one. His panasonic unit was less than $300.00. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pietenpol Discussion
Subject: Re: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
Date: - - - , 20-
Steve Eldredge wrote: > I have just finished the installation of the eyebrows on my A-65 and > now > I wonder If they are really nessary. > > I looked at some planes and some have em and some don't. > > Kevin M.,- I noticed that you are running without them. Any temp > problems? Do you have a CGT or just OT. Fried Cyinders:I do now!!! I retrofitted some J-3 eyebrows I got for free. They required some riveting etc. but the price was right. The reason I put eyebrows on? The engine has 250 hours since rebuild and has had 7 (yes seven) cylinders replaced. Mostly rear cylinders about every 40 - 75 hours. The Texas summer will eat up cylinders quickly if they aren't cooled well! I do plan on replacing the nonfunctional clock with a CHT for one of the back jugs. GPS: I just got back from Alaska in the Tri-Pacer. 85 hours, 43 fuel stops 10,000 miles in 10 days! We borrowed a Garmin 195 moving map GPS - very nice unit but at $1200 kinda pricey. I especially liked the ability to skirt class B/C airspace by cruising right outside the circle. Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more in the $600 range? With the difficulty of map reading in the Piet I think I will need to invest in one. I also have noticed that I fly the Piet at about 300 - 500 feet instead of 1000-2000 feet in the Tri-Pacer. At the lower altitude it only takes about 30 seconds to get lost - even when I'm flying in my well traveled area. This is off topic for the list so probably reply to me if you have a GPS pirep for me. ~ktm ------ Message Header Follows ------ (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.8d for Windows NT(tm)) 1997 20:10:45 UT by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23832) with ESMTP id <01ILCFX89H6A0002ZC(at)yvax.byu.edu> for Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:41:32 -0500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: eyebrows also GPS ?'s
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Cont/Lyc users: eyebrows
Date: Jul 18, 1997
ernest l. hagness wrote: > The eyebrows are a must on the 65 cont . In addition ,dont forget the > little baffles that go between the cylinders. Also, always put > neverseeze onyour plug threads. Ernest, Can I just find neverseize off the shelf somewhere or is it a AS&S item. Also I am aware of a little quarter bend turn baffle inside the eyebrow for the rear most cylinders directing air at the base of the jug. Is this what you are referring to? Is there anymore that I need to be aware of. What about around the bottom of the jugs, anything here? (I seem to remember that there isn't, but hey...) Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jul 19, 1997
writes: Peter Knowles wrote: Wow, Did you see the eight page spread on Piets! Haven't had time to read reach Australia for about two months. I normally pick it up and thumb through it but put it down again if It's the August issue. Real good article... Just when I thought about doing away with my Kitplane subscription, I get a surprise! Guess I'll renew for another year now... Gary... I guess I really should, also. They do have me in there! JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mahal5(at)juno.com (Emily Williamson)
Subject: subscribe
Date: Jul 19, 1997
subscribe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mahal5(at)juno.com (Emily Williamson)
Subject: Want wood sizes.
Date: Jul 19, 1997
We want the sizes of the wood for the wings ,Fusilage, tail,and everything else. We also need the amount in lingth too. We are going to cut out the lumber first. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Cont/Lyc users: eyebrows
Date: Jul 19, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > ernest l. hagness wrote: > > > The eyebrows are a must on the 65 cont . In addition ,dont forget the > > little baffles that go between the cylinders. Also, always put > > neverseeze onyour plug threads. > > Ernest, > > Can I just find neverseize off the shelf somewhere or is it a AS&S > item. Also I am aware of a little quarter bend turn baffle inside the > eyebrow for the rear most cylinders directing air at the base of the > jug. Is this what you are referring to? Is there anymore that I need > to be aware of. What about around the bottom of the jugs, anything > here? (I seem to remember that there isn't, but hey...) > > Stevee Stevee , Never seeze is available at most auto parts stores and the small bottle of gray stuff goes a long way so dont buy the large economy size. The small baffles that I am refering to go inbetween the cylinders and run parralel to the case. They can be easily made from small flat pieces of 24 Ga. 2024T3 aluminum . Go to the airport and ask one of the bolt twisters if you can borrow one for a pattern and just make a paper pattern and cut it out and transfer it to the aluminum. Real easy to make and put in but well worth the effort. also see if you can find a bird with a small continental engine and take a look under the eyebrows and you will see how to put them in. One peek at the real thing is worth a thousand words. Good luck. Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 19, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > > > > >GPS: > > > >Has anyone else used a handheld moving map unit more in the $600 > >range? With the difficulty of map reading in the Piet I think I will > >need to invest in one. I also have noticed that I fly the Piet at about > >300 - 500 feet instead of 1000-2000 feet in the Tri-Pacer. At the > >lower altitude it only takes about 30 seconds to get lost - even when > >I'm flying in my well traveled area. > > > I have used a Garmin 90. Have not compared it to the 195, but it was > sufficient to see the Class B and skirt it. Does not have the roads, etc. > > I want to look at the Lorance (sp?) because it has the roads, etc. and is > supposed to have an OBSTRUCTIONS database. If that means radio and tv > towers I definitely want one while flying my piet... > > Ted Brousseau / DOVE > Naples, FL Ted, I shopped long and hard to get the best practicle gps on the market that had all of the nice things in it and after trying several including all of the garmens and apoloes I decided on the lowrance airmap. It is very user fiendly and is loaded with many options. I used it on a road trip to milwaukee and it works great on the interstates as well as in the air. I loaned it to a friend that is a CFI and commercial pilot and he has nothing but good things to say about it and he has used several others but likes the air map over all of them. Another fellow made me an offer to trade my airmap for his garmin 195 ,no deal.I hope to get my bird back in the air in the next two weeks and hope I can get my old friend to turn loose of my airmap.Ernie Hagness ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Check out Kitplanes!
Date: Jul 20, 1997
jimvan1(at)juno.com wrote: > > writes: > Peter Knowles wrote: > > Wow, > > Did you see the eight page spread on Piets! Haven't had time to > read > reach Australia for about two months. I > normally pick it up and thumb through it but put it down again if > > It's the August issue. Real good article... Just when I thought about > doing away with my Kitplane subscription, I get a surprise! Guess I'll > renew for another year now... > > Gary... > > I guess I really should, also. They do have me in there! > > JimV. Guess I would have gone out and emptied the rack if my project had been included. It always renews the juices when mention is made of my favorite plane, let alone a great article like this. Congratulations to all who were highlighted therein... :) Gary... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 20, 1997
>Ted, I shopped long and hard to get the best practicle gps on the >market that had all of the nice things in it and after trying several >including all of the garmens and apoloes I decided on the lowrance >airmap. It is very user fiendly and is loaded with many options. I used >it on a road trip to milwaukee and it works great on the interstates as >well as in the air. Ernie, Is yours one of the latest with an obstacle database? If so, how does it work? Is it the same as class B and SUA, i.e., it will warn you when you get close? I hope so, it would be nice to have those radio and tv towers showing up automatically on the moving map. Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 21, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > >Ted, I shopped long and hard to get the best practicle gps on the > >market that had all of the nice things in it and after trying several > >including all of the garmens and apoloes I decided on the lowrance > >airmap. It is very user fiendly and is loaded with many options. I used > >it on a road trip to milwaukee and it works great on the interstates as > >well as in the air. > > Ernie, > > Is yours one of the latest with an obstacle database? If so, how does it > work? Is it the same as class B and SUA, i.e., it will warn you when you > get close? I hope so, it would be nice to have those radio and tv towers > showing up automatically on the moving map. > > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida Ted, Yes It does have all of the above. My friend who presently has it on loan from me is flying airial photography for the ASCS, (US Dpt. of Ag) with a 182 RG says he dont know how he was able to do this without the GPS. In the areas of flight he has to get in and out of many military zones and lots of towers so he is in no rush to give it back , but since we do our fun flying togather I guess thats ok. Since the piet is without an electric system, I purchased a neat rechargeable battery pack from Damark that has outlets for 6-9- and 12 volt use and by removing the battery pack from the GPS and placeing the rechareable under the back seat next to the ELT I dont have to replace all of those batteries very often and the are always available for emergencie use. It also serves as the power supply for the intercom and ICOM A22 with VOR. The cost of the pack was only 17.00 so I purchased two so I always have one in the hangar fully charged and ready to go. These packs are also fused with an auto type fuse that you can easily replace on the exterior of the unit. Walmart sold these units for a while but the local store said they were discontinued. May also be available at acadamy or other sporting goods stores. Ernie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: gap seals on air campers
Date: Jul 21, 1997
Craig R. Lawler wrote: > > Ernie, > > I used RC monocoat for my gap seals. Found a color that matched real > close and glued it on with fabric cement. I think this is better > than the recomented scotch tape. > > Craig Craig, A couple of questions on the monocote, How does it hold up to flexing and UV. I have had no luck in finding any long enough to span the total length of the ailerons. Is a splice OK. Ernie Hagness ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: gap seals on air campers
Date: Jul 21, 1997
ernest l. hagness wrote: > Craig R. Lawler wrote: > > > > Ernie, > > > > I used RC monocoat for my gap seals. Found a color that matched real > > > close and glued it on with fabric cement. I think this is better > > than the recomented scotch tape. > > > > Craig > Craig, A couple of questions on the monocote, How does it hold up to > flexing and UV. I have had no luck in finding any long enough to span > the total length of the ailerons. Is a splice OK. Ernie Hagness No problem on any count. I built rc for 15 years before starting on my piet. I used monokote for nearly every model. Most hobby stores will sell it by the linear foot. Buy a couple of feet and cut strips to the correct width and iron them together with about a 1/2" overlap. The adhesive is very tenacious. I have never seen it fade and I have some of my original models still and the colors are still bright. Flexing will not be a problem on ailerons. I have used it at the hinges themselves on many models without a problem. It does become more brittle in the cold, but not enought to be a factor in this application. Splice and play... as they say. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mahal5(at)juno.com (Emily Williamson)
Subject: Sizes of wood parts for.
Date: Jul 21, 1997
I need the sizes of the wood parts for all the Piets fusilage wings tailfeathers and everything else. Also the amount of wood I will need such as how much wood and sizes are in the fusilage and everything else. Emelita W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Sizes of wood parts for.
Date: Jul 21, 1997
Emily Williamson wrote: > > I need the sizes of the wood parts for all the Piets fusilage wings > tailfeathers and everything else. Also the amount of wood I will need > such as how much wood and sizes are in the fusilage and everything else. > I'm currently going through the process of figuring this out for the wings. Since I don't have the best place to store lumber it will kind of be on an "as needed" basis instead of all at once. In any case I'll be glad to share whatever information I come up with. It will probably be after Brodhead before I start ordering wood. Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject:
Date: Jul 21, 1997
Doug Hunt wrote: > Hope i'am sending this to the correct address.I'am wondering if anyone > has > a part# for the john deere sring used for the tailwheel,that i have > heard / > read of ??? > I am building a corvair powered piet with 60" warp drive prop. > Thanks for now Doug Hunt... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 21, 1997
>> > Since the piet >is without an electric system, I purchased a neat rechargeable battery >pack from Damark that has outlets for 6-9- and 12 volt use and by >removing the battery pack from the GPS and placeing the rechareable >under the back seat next to the ELT I dont have to replace all of those >batteries very often and the are always available for emergencie use. Wow, Ernie, you don't have concerns about throwing off the weight & balance... Thanks for the info. Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: classair(at)ny.frontiercomm.net
Subject: Re: RE: Re: Sizes of wood parts for.
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Keep in mind that weight is important. If you look at any of the planes that Bernie built all the wood is undersized. He measured to the center of the kerf of the blade on the table saw so all dimensions are about 1/16" less than what is called for on the plans. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: gap seals on air campers
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Ernie, The monocote gap seals on my alerons is holding up fine. On the elavators it is starting to crack though. I ended each piece at the hinges. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 22, 1997
I asked Steve to put me on the list about a week ago and I've been lurking ever since. It looks like a great group and I want to introduce myself. I am a private pilot, about 250 hours, who doesn't get to fly much anymore. I have a six month old son and a wife who is now staying home to care of him. My wife is (was) an accountant and flying was the first thing to get cut from the budget when she started staying home. Needless to say, I have been one S.O.B. to live with for the last six months. I still manage to sneak out once in a while. Husband veto, I just go out and spend the money on flying and let her figure out how to cover it. Stick and rudder flying is the only way to go. I did all of my training in Citabrias and Decathalons and spend as much time as I can flying low and slow. I got introduced to open cockpit flying in a friends PT-23...HEAVEN!!! An open cockpit taildragger is the only way to fly! You can see how I'm getting interested in the Piet. Other than photos, I have never seen a Piet much less fly one. Is anybody working on one in SoCal? (I am an expert at oohing and awing over other peoples airplanes.) Being an engineer (chemical) I am VERY interested in building my own plane (more Piet). Flying is a dream come true but, to build the machine that takes you into the air...well that's a whole new level of satisfaction. Before this turns into a full length bio, I'll wrap it up for now. Hi everyone, glad to be here. Carl "Slip'r" Hixon FYI--Slip'r comes from my flight instructor. The Citabria I trained in didn't have flaps and I could never land without Slipping it in. I got to be quite the expert! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Welcome, Carl! >I asked Steve to put me on the list about a week ago and I've been >lurking ever since. It looks like a great group and I want to introduce >myself. Yeah, these folks are a nice bunch, even to a non-currently-building-head-in-the-clouds-dreamer like me. >Stick and rudder flying is the only way to go. I did all of my training >in Citabrias and Decathalons and spend as much time as I can flying low >and slow. I got introduced to open cockpit flying in a friends >PT-23...HEAVEN!!! An open cockpit taildragger is the only way to fly! >You can see how I'm getting interested in the Piet. Other than photos, >I have never seen a Piet much less fly one. Is anybody working on one >in SoCal? (I am an expert at oohing and awing over other peoples >airplanes.) Motion seconded! I too am in SoCal (Canyon Country) and have yet to see a Piet up close and personal (although that should change in T-minus 8 days, OSH and Brodhead, here I come!). Wouldn't mind tracking down a builder nearby, the better to pester them when I *DO* start building ;-) >FYI--Slip'r comes from my flight instructor. The Citabria I trained in >didn't have flaps and I could never land without Slipping it in. I got >to be quite the expert! Still gotta get the hang of those guys. My whopping *TWO* hours Citabria time has me hooked (I learned in a 150, but if I had only known...), and aside from that one awkward incident involving landing on the mains (ahem...), it's a hoot! Welcome to the list! Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: RE: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Welcome to our discusion group. I'm just about finished building so if you're ever in Toronto look me up. I will definitely be at brodhead in '98. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pietenpol Discussion
Subject: Hi Everyone!
Date: - - - , 20-
I asked Steve to put me on the list about a week ago and I've been lurking ever since. It looks like a great group and I want to introduce myself. I am a private pilot, about 250 hours, who doesn't get to fly much anymore. I have a six month old son and a wife who is now staying home to care of him. My wife is (was) an accountant and flying was the first thing to get cut from the budget when she started staying home. Needless to say, I have been one S.O.B. to live with for the last six months. I still manage to sneak out once in a while. Husband veto, I just go out and spend the money on flying and let her figure out how to cover it. Stick and rudder flying is the only way to go. I did all of my training in Citabrias and Decathalons and spend as much time as I can flying low and slow. I got introduced to open cockpit flying in a friends PT-23...HEAVEN!!! An open cockpit taildragger is the only way to fly! You can see how I'm getting interested in the Piet. Other than photos, I have never seen a Piet much less fly one. Is anybody working on one in SoCal? (I am an expert at oohing and awing over other peoples airplanes.) Being an engineer (chemical) I am VERY interested in building my own plane (more Piet). Flying is a dream come true but, to build the machine that takes you into the air...well that's a whole new level of satisfaction. Before this turns into a full length bio, I'll wrap it up for now. Hi everyone, glad to be here. Carl "Slip'r" Hixon FYI--Slip'r comes from my flight instructor. The Citabria I trained in didn't have flaps and I could never land without Slipping it in. I got to be quite the expert! ------ Message Header Follows ------ (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.8d for Windows NT(tm)) 1997 19:59:03 UT by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23832) with ESMTP id <01ILJFDP3EV0000H6Q(at)yvax.byu.edu> for Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:39:54 -0700 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > >> > > Since the piet > >is without an electric system, I purchased a neat rechargeable battery > >pack from Damark that has outlets for 6-9- and 12 volt use and by > >removing the battery pack from the GPS and placeing the rechareable > >under the back seat next to the ELT I dont have to replace all of those > >batteries very often and the are always available for emergencie use. > > Wow, Ernie, you don't have concerns about throwing off the weight & > balance... > > Thanks for the info. > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida Ted , I am kind of a skinny liteweight and I can add a bit of weight with out a problom and I have seen the piets carry some portly lads OK and since I have an A 80 c0nt up front power is not a problem. But I probably should run a new W&B on the little bugger just to make sure. Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: gap seals on air campers
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > ernest l. hagness wrote: > > > Craig R. Lawler wrote: > > > > > > Ernie, > > > > > > I used RC monocoat for my gap seals. Found a color that matched real > > > > > close and glued it on with fabric cement. I think this is better > > > than the recomented scotch tape. > > > > > > Craig > > Craig, A couple of questions on the monocote, How does it hold up to > > flexing and UV. I have had no luck in finding any long enough to span > > the total length of the ailerons. Is a splice OK. Ernie Hagness > > No problem on any count. I built rc for 15 years before starting on my > piet. I used monokote for nearly every model. Most hobby stores will > sell it by the linear foot. Buy a couple of feet and cut strips to the > correct width and iron them together with about a 1/2" overlap. The > adhesive is very tenacious. I have never seen it fade and I have some > of my original models still and the colors are still bright. Flexing > will not be a problem on ailerons. I have used it at the hinges > themselves on many models without a problem. It does become more > brittle in the cold, but not enought to be a factor in this > application. Splice and play... as they say. > > Stevee Stevee. Thanks , I will Now forge ahead with the gap seal project.Ernie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 22, 1997
Hixon, Carl wrote: > > I asked Steve to put me on the list about a week ago and I've been > lurking ever since. > Welcome Carl, I have always liked the Pietenpol, but really got bit last year. So far I have studied the plans, joined the BPA, read all the material I can get my hands on, asked a bunch of dumb questions, went to Brodhead and bought a model A engine(although not in that exact order). I plan to start building as soon as I return from Brodhead this year. Anyway, it has been a real pleasure to particapate, it is a good group. Bob Bailey - Missouri ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Woodbridge, Gary" <gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com>
Subject: RE: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 23, 1997
Like Carl, I am new to the list and have not seen a Piet up close. Is there anybody building/flying one in Oklahoma. I live in Guthrie, Oklahoma which is just North of Oklahoma City. If nobody is close to me, I can jump in my Maule and hope over to take a look. Thanks, Gary Woodbridge ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 23, 1997
>Like Carl, I am new to the list and have not seen a Piet up close. Is >there anybody building/flying one in Oklahoma. Gary, Carl, ....... It sure is nice to see interest in the Pietenpol growing. It it such a fun airplane in all respects. It is a magnet which peaks people's interest again in affordable, safe, pleasure flying. It's great to have a plane where children can see into the cockpit from the ground. The smell of wood, varnish, oil, and leather. (ahh, synthetic vinyl). You get the idea. I get visits from guys who fly jets, airline pilots, etc to watch my building progress and they get more excited about this project than over anything they fly. It's a good bunch. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 23, 1997
I have looked around Steve's web page and found some resources for obtaining drawings but, I thought that I would ask the group specificly: * What is the best source(s) for obtaining a "complete" set of drawings and builders manual (if there is one) for the "improved" Air Camper with 3 section wing and jury struts? * Are the drawings available on disk in AutoCAD format? Thanks! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 23, 1997
Anybody know long it takes to drive from Oshkosh to Brodhead? John K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 23, 1997
>obtaining drawings but, I thought that I would ask the group specificly: > What is the best source(s) for obtaining a "complete" set of drawings and builders manual (if there is one) for the "improved" Air Camper with>3 section wing and jury struts? Carl- I obtained my plans from the son of Bernard Pietenpol, Donald Pietenpol 1604 Meadow Circle SE Rochester, MN 55904-5251 (507)-289-2436 He has plans for the 65 Cont. motor mount, wood gear, full scale wing rib drawing, general plans, and a builders manual which covers alot of model A ground and lots of Q and A about Piets in general. They are reasonably priced drawings. I believe Vitalis Kapler has the 3 pce wing drawings but I don't have his address at the moment. You may already have been there, but just in case the Pietenpol homepage address edited by the talented Grant MacLaren is at http://users.aol.com/bpanews/www.html Also as a side note, two designs are nicknamed Air Campers: There is a Pietenpol Air Camper and a Grega Air Camper. The Grega looks very much like a Piet, but the plans come from another gentleman here in Ohio. It was designed to use some Cub parts I understand. MC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 23, 1997
>Anybody know long it takes to drive from Oshkosh to Brodhead? John- I want to say about 3.5 hours or so. MC >John K > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 23, 1997
> > Also as a side note, two designs are nicknamed Air Campers: > There is a Pietenpol Air Camper and a Grega Air Camper. > The Grega looks very much like a Piet, but the plans come > from another gentleman here in Ohio. It was designed to use > some Cub parts I understand. MC > I have the Grega 3 view and and from what I can tell the differences are mainly: 3 piece wing. Same airfoil as the Peit. Cubish wing cabane and spar fittings, somewhat heavier than the Piet. The top cabane bolts are fore and aft, which would seem to preclude moving the wing fore and aft to compensate for CG. Generally beefier wing strut, gear, and engine mount fittings. Plywood skin all the way to the tail post. The rudder horn is near the bottom. It's the easiest way to tell a Grega from a Piet. J3 gear and engine mount. J3 control stick assembly and torque tube. The aileron cables are forward, going up the forward cabanes. J3 nose gas tank. The gross is 1150 lbs. The control surface hinges are eyebolts. Rather clever. Designed for continentals up to C-90. I would expect a Grega to come out about 30-50 lbs heavier for a given engine installation, judging by the extra structure. Most people seem to think the extra heft is unnecessary. John K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Sizes of wood parts for.
Date: Jul 23, 1997
writes: Keep in mind that weight is important. If you look at any of the planes that Bernie built all the wood is undersized. He measured to the center of the kerf of the blade on the table saw so all dimensions are about 1/16" less than what is called for on the plans. Amen, brother. If anybody wants to change Mr. Pietenpol's plans, make the change toward the lighter side. Everyone wants to make everything stronger and "better", and oh, by the way, heavier. NOT!!!! Mine came in at 610 pounds the second time around. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 23, 1997
Yes, with my trailer it took 3.0hours Dom. ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pietenpol Discussion
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: - - - , 20-
Anybody know long it takes to drive from Oshkosh to Brodhead? John K ------ Message Header Follows ------ (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.8d for Windows NT(tm)) 1997 17:45:59 UT by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23832) with ESMTP id <01ILKP2C283M000KD9(at)yvax.byu.edu> for Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:30:47 -0400 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 23, 1997
Anyone from San Diego? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 23, 1997
John K. wrote: it's easiest to tell a Grega from" the rudder horn is near the bottom" Not necessirily. I know of at least 3 pietenpol aircampers with the horn near the bottom. if you have hydrollic brakes (toe) then you must move the rudder in-line with the cable to keep the stress off the horn. It will bend. Also by butting a pully and cable under the seat connected to the rudder pedals it will equilize the pressure and save the horn. regards, Domenico B. ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pietenpol Discussion
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: - - - , 20-
> > Also as a side note, two designs are nicknamed Air Campers: > There is a Pietenpol Air Camper and a Grega Air Camper. > The Grega looks very much like a Piet, but the plans come > from another gentleman here in Ohio. It was designed to use > some Cub parts I understand. MC > I have the Grega 3 view and and from what I can tell the differences are mainly: 3 piece wing. Same airfoil as the Peit. Cubish wing cabane and spar fittings, somewhat heavier than the Piet. The top cabane bolts are fore and aft, which would seem to preclude moving the wing fore and aft to compensate for CG. Generally beefier wing strut, gear, and engine mount fittings. Plywood skin all the way to the tail post. The rudder horn is near the bottom. It's the easiest way to tell a Grega from a Piet. J3 gear and engine mount. J3 control stick assembly and torque tube. The aileron cables are forward, going up the forward cabanes. J3 nose gas tank. The gross is 1150 lbs. The control surface hinges are eyebolts. Rather clever. Designed for continentals up to C-90. I would expect a Grega to come out about 30-50 lbs heavier for a given engine installation, judging by the extra structure. Most people seem to think the extra heft is unnecessary. John K ------ Message Header Follows ------ (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.8d for Windows NT(tm)) 1997 18:37:48 UT by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23832) with ESMTP id <01ILKQVLA63O000JK2(at)yvax.byu.edu> for Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:22:13 -0400 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 23, 1997
What are the differences between the plans offered by Don Pietenpol and those offered by Orrin Hoopman? ------------- Original Text ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn), on 7/23/97 2:22 PM:
> Also as a side note, two designs are nicknamed Air Campers: > There is a Pietenpol Air Camper and a Grega Air Camper. > The Grega looks very much like a Piet, but the plans come > from another gentleman here in Ohio. It was designed to use > some Cub parts I understand. MC > I have the Grega 3 view and and from what I can tell the differences are mainly: 3 piece wing. Same airfoil as the Peit. Cubish wing cabane and spar fittings, somewhat heavier than the Piet. The top cabane bolts are fore and aft, which would seem to preclude moving the wing fore and aft to compensate for CG. Generally beefier wing strut, gear, and engine mount fittings. Plywood skin all the way to the tail post. The rudder horn is near the bottom. It's the easiest way to tell a Grega from a Piet. J3 gear and engine mount. J3 control stick assembly and torque tube. The aileron cables are forward, going up the forward cabanes. J3 nose gas tank. The gross is 1150 lbs. The control surface hinges are eyebolts. Rather clever. Designed for continentals up to C-90. I would expect a Grega to come out about 30-50 lbs heavier for a given engine installation, judging by the extra structure. Most people seem to think the extra heft is unnecessary. John K - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: scott
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 24, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > > Anybody know long it takes to drive from Oshkosh to Brodhead? > > John K More than 2 hours and less than a day and a half (don't ask, long story!)...seriously, depending on traffic, about 2 hours each way. Hope this helps you out. Scott, N4181E (Aeronca 11CC) -- Gotta Fly or Gonna Die ! --Ask me about my Aeronca Super Chief-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 23, 1997
dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil wrote: > > What are the differences between the plans offered by Don Pietenpol and > those offered by Orrin Hoopman? I bought a set from both. The main difference is Mr. Hoopman charges $40.00 and Mr. Pietenpol about $65.00. The main drawings are the same size and quality. Seems like Mr. Pietenpol may have additional utility (optional) drawings Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 24, 1997
>> >> >> > Since the piet >> >is without an electric system, I purchased a neat rechargeable battery >> >pack from Damark that has outlets for 6-9- and 12 volt use Ernie, I looked in my last Damark catalog and couldn't find that battery pack. Did you purchase it recently? Do you have a catalog number? It sounds like something I could use. Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Grega misc.
Date: Jul 24, 1997
John K's notes on |Grega's was right on....... Another way to distinguish Grega and a Piet is how their lift struts attach to the fuselage. The Piets struts join at the top of each landing gear fitting, the Grega has a third fitting which isn't in line with the gear fittings. (to use the Cub gear) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Morgan <75573.23(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Brodhead
Date: Jul 24, 1997
Also, I have an engine 0-290D2 for sale or trade. Will trade for project or a A65. Mark Morgan . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D.BELLISSIMO(at)littonlsl.com (BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC)
Subject: No Subject
Date: Jul 24, 1997
Unsubscribe, Just got layed off. Will subscribe as soon as I get another hookup. regards, Domenic Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 24, 1997
If you want to go with a one peace weing the weight will be very close. I know the one peace is not an option with the GN1 but I have been told it will work. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dick Dery <dickdery(at)teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 24, 1997
>>obtaining drawings but, I thought that I would ask the group specificly: >> What is the best source(s) for obtaining a "complete" set of drawings and >builders manual (if there is one) for the "improved" Air Camper with>3 >section wing and jury struts? > >Carl- I obtained my plans from the son of Bernard Pietenpol, > >Donald Pietenpol >1604 Meadow Circle SE >Rochester, MN 55904-5251 >(507)-289-2436 > >He has plans for the 65 Cont. motor mount, wood gear, >full scale wing rib drawing, general plans, and a builders >manual which covers alot of model A ground and lots of >Q and A about Piets in general. They are reasonably priced >drawings. I believe Vitalis Kapler has the 3 pce wing drawings >but I don't have his address at the moment. > Vitalis Kapler 1033 Forest Hills Dr. SW Rochester, MN 55902 507-288-3322 I got my 3-pc wing plans for $10. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 24, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > >> >> > >> > Since the piet > >> >is without an electric system, I purchased a neat rechargeable battery > >> >pack from Damark that has outlets for 6-9- and 12 volt use > > Ernie, > > I looked in my last Damark catalog and couldn't find that battery pack. Did > you purchase it recently? Do you have a catalog number? It sounds like > something I could use. > > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida Ted I will try to find the catalog number , If that fails I can give you all of the data from my receipt ect . that you can call damark on their 800 and see if they still have any . The data off the box is #30199 electrical v MVP 12 volt dc rechargeable handy power system multi-volt with diagnostic LED display I-6001 multi portable power source has multi-DC. voltage 3v-6v-9v-12v featured with a 12volt DC or 110voltAC recharging capability . The 110 charge adapter is not included but available at K Mart for about $7.00 The unit is also fused with an automotive type flat two prong fuse easy to get at on the outside of the unit. It is put out by the Shin Fu Co of America inc. 10939 N Pomona ave. Kansas City, MO. 64153. The bar code number is 0 47077 19294 8 Shin Fu phone number is 816-891-6390 and Fax is 816-891-6599 Damarks number is 1-800-827-6767 any day any time. If you are unable to do any good with this info I will try to find me receipt and get the catalog number. I think it is at the air port in my four foot high airplane expense folder that is to large to transport so i just leave it in the hangar and watch it grow.Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a bargain. Good luck . Ernie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 24, 1997
Carl: Welcome to the list, you have to do "magic" with your budget and manage to= fly, That is why some airplanes are nicknamed "mistress", because you have them without your wife knowing... sometimes they kinda suspect it. One Mexican advice about this: ..... My wife is (was) an accountant and flying was the first >thing to get cut from the budget when she started staying home. >Needless to say, I have been one S.O.B. to live with for the last six >months. I still manage to sneak out once in a while. Husband veto, I >just go out and spend the money on flying and let her figure out how to >cover it. > Dont give to your wife All your money nether all your love! She will have it all and loose interest (?) Allways "hide" some budget from your income, they (wifes) normaly do and it helps in difficult times of marriage, You have another option, search for a better paid job..... Well back to theme Welcome and fly before is to late, time wont wait for nobody! Saludos (no more) :-(=09 EAA Chapter 1039 President ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI= legal Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the= GPS!) "Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian= Taber (When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 24, 1997
> Ernie wrote: >> Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers >club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a >bargain. Good luck . Ernie > Ernie, Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the list doesn't call and cause a run on them... Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 25, 1997
>>Anybody know long it takes to drive from Oshkosh to Brodhead? > >John- I want to say about 3.5 hours or so. MC > >>John K >> >> With or witout "radar Detector" ? ..... :-) This year we ( 4 friends and me) went by Bus from here (Guadalajara, Mexico) to Laredo and San Antonio TX. Then we droved from San Antonio TX to Lakeland FLA (sun & Fun) stoping only for fuel food and 3 hours of sleep... we got there tired but happy. in a truck stop in LA we bought a "radar detector" the best investment in the hole trip, we were making 80 - 90 mph "cops and weather permited". So from Osh driving to Brodhead will be worth it.. Hope I will make it some time. Saludos (no more) :-(=09 EAA Chapter 1039 President ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI= legal Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the= GPS!) "Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian= Taber (When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod and question about Model A
Date: Jul 25, 1997
If I can expect to get a Piet ride, a 3 hour side trip to Brodhead on Saturday would certainly be worth it. And now a Model A question: Has anybody ever tried to modify the aluminum Model A head for a second spark plug? Possibly by boring a hole through a water jacket and tig welding a sleeve in the hole which could be threaded and helicoiled for one of those small (7mm I think) spark plugs like they use on dual ignition VWs? Too off-the-wall? JohnK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 25, 1997
Me again... What's the nearest medium to large town by Brodhead? I have a relatively sketchy map of Wisconsin right now. If it's in SE Wisconsin it's right on the way home. JohnK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod -Reply
Date: Jul 25, 1997
Brodhead is 30 miles due south of Madison and 20 miles West of Janesville. Greg >>> John Kahn 07/25/97 09:21am >>> Me again... What's the nearest medium to large town by Brodhead? I have a relatively sketchy map of Wisconsin right now. If it's in SE Wisconsin it's right on the way home. JohnK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: adamson@add-inc.com (Adamson, Arden)
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 25, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > > Me again... > > What's the nearest medium to large town by Brodhead? I have > a relatively sketchy map of Wisconsin right now. If it's in > SE Wisconsin it's right on the way home. > > JohnK John, Brodhead is 25 miles west of Janesville, WI on Hy 11 Arden A. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Schober <classair(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Piet Plans
Date: Jul 25, 1997
Weight is the biggest problem with the Pietenpol Aircamper. The 3 piece wing adds about 6 pounds. I would suggest that you make a 2 piece wing. Make one side so it includes the center section and make the other so it is only the outer panel. This saves 3 pounds of fittings and the time req= uired to produce them. The rigging may be a little harder but the perform= ance difference with a lighter airframe will be well worth it. Of course the best solution is to make the one piece wing if you have the room to store it. > >>obtaining drawings but, I thought that I would ask the group specific= ly: > >> What is the best source(s) for obtaining a "complete" set of drawing= s > and > >builders manual (if there is one) for the "improved" Air Camper with>3 > >section wing and jury struts? > > > >Carl- I obtained my plans from the son of Bernard Pietenpol, > > > >Donald Pietenpol > >1604 Meadow Circle SE > >Rochester, MN 55904-5251 > >(507)-289-2436 > > > >He has plans for the 65 Cont. motor mount, wood gear, > >full scale wing rib drawing, general plans, and a builders > >manual which covers alot of model A ground and lots of > >Q and A about Piets in general. They are reasonably priced > >drawings. I believe Vitalis Kapler has the 3 pce wing drawings > >but I don't have his address at the moment. > > > Vitalis Kapler > 1033 Forest Hills Dr. SW > Rochester, MN 55902 > 507-288-3322 > > I got my 3-pc wing plans for $10. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod and question about Model A
Date: Jul 25, 1997
>If I can expect to get a Piet ride, a 3 hour side trip to Brodhead on= Saturday >would certainly be worth it. > >And now a Model A question: > >Has anybody ever tried to modify the aluminum Model A head for >a second spark plug? Possibly by boring a hole through a water >jacket and tig welding a sleeve in the hole which could be threaded >and helicoiled for one of those small (7mm I think) spark plugs like >they use on dual ignition VWs? > >Too off-the-wall? > >JohnK > Some years ago (with a the old 2 cycle 25:1 oil mixture used at that time) I made a long trip in my motorcycle, to prevent cleaning and changing plugs in the middle of nowhere in the sun, I made (with my welder an late) a part that maybe you can use (or try), when one spark plug beguined to foul I just change the cable to the other one. This way I could make some distance and find a shade to clean the spark plugs, and drink a coke.... This was a good motorcycle with all that smoke trail the cars could see you at safe distance :-) I will try to explain (no drawing in e-mail yet): with an old spark plug metal part, leave enough height to hold it in place, then using two little pieces of tube (is difficult to find the words in english), with the diameter enough for the little new spark plugs (GM ?) make tread inside for the spark plugs, then weld them to the piece of spark plug in "Y" position, screw it to the spark plug hole and put one little spark plug in each tube.... Then conect the cable from each magneto to the spark plugs. I think this is better than the risk of a water leak.... Saludos (no more) :-(=09 EAA Chapter 1039 President ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI= legal Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the= GPS!) "Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian= Taber (When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: scott
Subject: Re: Osh to Brod
Date: Jul 26, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > > Me again... > > What's the nearest medium to large town by Brodhead? I have > a relatively sketchy map of Wisconsin right now. If it's in > SE Wisconsin it's right on the way home. > > JohnKBrodhead is fairly close to either Janesville or Beloit...if I had my choice, I'd stay in Janesville. It's about 200 degrees from Oshkosh (about 105 S.M.) and about 280 degrees from the Janesville VOR (about 14 S.M.) all as the crow (or Piet) flies... Scott, Aeronca N4181E -- Gotta Fly or Gonna Die ! --Ask me about my Aeronca Super Chief-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 25, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > Ernie wrote: > >> Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers > >club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a > >bargain. Good luck . Ernie > > > Ernie, > > Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the list > doesn't call and cause a run on them... > > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida Ted, Thats what happened here when I showed mine to the eaa group ,and a bunch of local areial ag applicators . If you dont connect with the info you have ,push my button again and I will try to dig up the catalog number.Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Vinyl Letters
Date: Jul 25, 1997
Barry Davis wrote: > > I am thinking about cutting some Piet emblems. I own a company called N. > American Numbers. This company was set up to do custom aircraft and boats. > I had four new showplanes at Sun n Fun this year. (Not my planes, but my > graphics) > > I am planning to go to Brodhead on Saturday this year and see what type of > stuff we need for our Piets. Maybe I will post them in the BPA newsletter. > > I just bought a Piet project about 45% complete and this is my first time to > Brodhead. Can't hardly wait. > > PS. If you use a local sign shop, make sure you get High- performance vinyl. > Most try to use the cheap stuff to save a buck. You can't tell by looking > at it, but you sure can about one year later when it starts to shrink and > fade and peel. > > Barry Davis > bed(at)mindspring.com Barry , could you give us more info on the piet emblems IE: size, colors graphics, PRICE. and will they pe on peel and stick vinyl Ernie . I have a Grega aircamper so I guess it would not do to put pietenpol on mine , however it really stated as a pietenpol and still is except for the engine and gear. I still give pietenpol full credit for it. Ernie Hagness ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Re: Vinyl Letters
Date: Jul 26, 1997
>Barry Davis wrote: >> >> I am thinking about cutting some Piet emblems. I own a company called N. >> American Numbers. This company was set up to do custom aircraft and boats. >> I had four new showplanes at Sun n Fun this year. (Not my planes, but my >> graphics) >> >> I am planning to go to Brodhead on Saturday this year and see what type of >> stuff we need for our Piets. Maybe I will post them in the BPA newsletter. >> >> I just bought a Piet project about 45% complete and this is my first time to >> Brodhead. Can't hardly wait. >> >> PS. If you use a local sign shop, make sure you get High- performance vinyl. >> Most try to use the cheap stuff to save a buck. You can't tell by looking >> at it, but you sure can about one year later when it starts to shrink and >> fade and peel. >> >> Barry Davis >> bed(at)mindspring.com >Barry , could you give us more info on the piet emblems IE: size, colors >graphics, PRICE. and will they pe on peel and stick vinyl Ernie . I have >a Grega aircamper so I guess it would not do to put pietenpol on mine , >however it really stated as a pietenpol and still is except for the >engine and gear. I still give pietenpol full credit for it. Ernie >Hagness ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net Good to hear from you. I'm leaving for Oshkosh shortly, also Brodhead on Sat. I'll email you when I get back. I have a lot of questions since the project I bought is also a GN-1. Barry Davis> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: laur-mac(at)ArkansasUSA.com (LAUR-MAC, INC.)
Subject: Re: Vinyl Letters
Date: Jul 26, 1997
How about an emblem for GN-1'S? Ken Goff > From: Barry Davis > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Vinyl Letters > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 9:30 PM > > >Barry Davis wrote: > >> > >> I am thinking about cutting some Piet emblems. I own a company called N. > >> American Numbers. This company was set up to do custom aircraft and boats. > >> I had four new showplanes at Sun n Fun this year. (Not my planes, but my > >> graphics) > >> > >> I am planning to go to Brodhead on Saturday this year and see what type of > >> stuff we need for our Piets. Maybe I will post them in the BPA newsletter. > >> > >> I just bought a Piet project about 45% complete and this is my first time to > >> Brodhead. Can't hardly wait. > >> > >> PS. If you use a local sign shop, make sure you get High- performance vinyl. > >> Most try to use the cheap stuff to save a buck. You can't tell by looking > >> at it, but you sure can about one year later when it starts to shrink and > >> fade and peel. > >> > >> Barry Davis > >> bed(at)mindspring.com > >Barry , could you give us more info on the piet emblems IE: size, colors > >graphics, PRICE. and will they pe on peel and stick vinyl Ernie . I have > >a Grega aircamper so I guess it would not do to put pietenpol on mine , > >however it really stated as a pietenpol and still is except for the > >engine and gear. I still give pietenpol full credit for it. Ernie > >Hagness ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net > > > Good to hear from you. I'm leaving for Oshkosh shortly, also Brodhead on > Sat. I'll email you when I get back. I have a lot of questions since the > project I bought is also a GN-1. > > Barry Davis> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Offa da list for a spell
Date: Jul 27, 1997
Greetings! I'm getting ready to head to Oshkosh on Wednesday, and as a result I'll not be checking my email starting tomorrow for a week. Do you need to remove me from the Piet list or anything like that? I don't want to be the cause of any problems. If you need to take me off, feel free to do so and I'll let you know when I'm back. If there's anything I need to do, I'll try to hop in tomorrow and check my email. Maybe see you at Brodhead? Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 27, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > Ernie wrote: > >> Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers > >club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a > >bargain. Good luck . Ernie > > > Ernie, > > Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the list > doesn't call and cause a run on them... > > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida Ted, as promised I did go through my paper mountain in search of data I need to enter in my log book as I get ready to certify after a bunch of repairs and I was able to locate the catalog number for the powerpack I will give you the string as not to miss anything you may need. Start--Item #508952 description--handy power system-- catalog# 30020--Item price $19.99 Discount for member$5.00 --total item price$14.99 --Free shipping . Good luck. This is all of the data I have. Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Offa da list for a spell
Date: Jul 28, 1997
Steve Pugh wrote: > Greetings! > > I'm getting ready to head to Oshkosh on Wednesday, and as a result > I'll not > be checking my email starting tomorrow for a week. Do you need to > remove > me from the Piet list or anything like that? I don't want to be the > cause > of any problems. > > If you need to take me off, feel free to do so and I'll let you know > when > I'm back. If there's anything I need to do, I'll try to hop in > tomorrow > and check my email. > > Maybe see you at Brodhead? > I wish! I am almost finished with my plane, but not yet. I will make it one of these years though. Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: MOre updates to my page
Date: Jul 28, 1997
Take a look. http://steve.byu.edu If you have questions on the laytex paint, vinyl lettering etc, let me know. stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Farthest flight to Brodhead?
Date: Jul 28, 1997
Those of you flying to Brodhead in their piet, let us know how far you are going so we can cheer the intreped soul who flies the farthest. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry & Sandy Walker <jswalker(at)tsixroads.com>
Subject: Introduction
Date: Jul 28, 1997
Hello, My name is Jerry Walker. Married to wife Sandy. Two children; Danielle and Ian. 48 Years old. Presently 3rd year pharmacy student (six year program). Previously a purchasing agent and later a contractor (primarily residential). Got the children out of the house and can now do what I want. One of those things is perhaps build a Pietenpol. Working on a Doctor of Pharmacy degree is not difficult enough at my age, I needed an additional challenge. (grin) Are there any builder/owners of Pietenpols in my area (Corinth, MS is in the very Northeast corner of the state)? I would like to make their acquaintance, see their planes, and perhaps solicit their help. Kept this brief as I'm sure you'd rather discuss Pietenpols, as would I. Looking forward to hearing from you, Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil
Subject: What is a babbit/babbiting?
Date: Jul 29, 1997
Or is it "babbet/babbeting"? In any case, I know bupkis about the Model A and have seen that term many times. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 29, 1997
ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net> writes: Ted Brousseau wrote: Ernie wrote: Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a bargain. Good luck . Ernie Ernie, Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the list doesn't call and cause a run on them... Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida Ted, as promised I did go through my paper mountain in search of data I need to enter in my log book as I get ready to certify after a bunch of repairs and I was able to locate the catalog number for the powerpack I will give you the string as not to miss anything you may need. Start--Item #508952 description--handy power system-- catalog# 30020--Item price $19.99 Discount for member$5.00 --total item price$14.99 --Free shipping . Good luck. This is all of the data I have. Ernie. C'mon, guys, if you wanna nav, get a Garmin 90. Use AA's. I've got a Corvair with a battery, and I don't use it 'cept for ignition. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 29, 1997
any GPS should only be used as a last resort. Fly like the 1928 pilot did..... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 29, 1997
Niwlyf(at)aol.com wrote: > > any GPS should only be used as a last resort. Fly like the 1928 pilot > did..... I did with My dad and wound up in a lot of strange places and hayfields. It WAS FUN AND EXCITING BUT , todays landscape with all of the obstructions,traffic and restricted air space that some of us have to weave our way through i will take the GPS. An old geezer thats been there and done that. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 29, 1997
jimvan1(at)juno.com wrote: > > ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net> writes: > Ted Brousseau wrote: > > Ernie wrote: > Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers > club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a > bargain. Good luck . Ernie > > Ernie, > > Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the > list > doesn't call and cause a run on them... > > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida > Ted, as promised I did go through my paper mountain in search of data > I > need to enter in my log book as I get ready to certify after a bunch > of > repairs and I was able to locate the catalog number for the powerpack > I > will give you the string as not to miss anything you may need. > Start--Item #508952 description--handy power system-- catalog# > 30020--Item price $19.99 Discount for member$5.00 --total item > price$14.99 --Free shipping . Good luck. This is all of the data I > have. > Ernie. > > C'mon, guys, if you wanna nav, get a Garmin 90. Use AA's. > I've got a Corvair with a battery, and I don't use it 'cept for ignition. > > JimV. The Lowrance also hums along on aa power but I like the backup system and being able to recharge keeps me out of K Mart buying all of those AAs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 29, 1997
I fly out of San Diego and the air is quite cluttered but it still fun without a GPS. Where I would use it the most is in the desert where every thing looks like the last thing you saw. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Laudani
Subject: RE: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 29, 1997
Hello Niwlyf! I am Alan Laudani, acer(at)connectnet.com, in Ramona. I'm about to start a Piet of my own. The most famous Piet (GN-1) in the area is Manual Sparks, flying from Gilespi. What's your progress building? I have just made a jig for an Continental Engine Mount and am studying plans to decide which fuselage to build. GN-1 or Lengthened Hoopman's plans. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: RE: Hi Everyone!
Date: Jul 30, 1997
I have not started building. I probably won't start for quite some time. I am just trying to collect information. Perhaps aquire some plans to study but, that is it for now. If you ever need a pair of hands, I'd love to come around when I can. On Tuesday, July 29, 1997 10:10 PM, Alan Laudani [SMTP:acer(at)connectnet.com] wrote: > Hello Niwlyf! > I am Alan Laudani, acer(at)connectnet.com, in Ramona. I'm about to start a Piet of my own. > The most famous Piet (GN-1) in the area is Manual Sparks, flying from Gilespi. > What's your progress building? I have just made a jig for an Continental Engine Mount and am studying plans to decide which fuselage to build. GN-1 or Lengthened Hoopman's plans. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 30, 1997
Niwlyf(at)aol.com wrote: > > I fly out of San Diego and the air is quite cluttered but it still fun > without a GPS. Where I would use it the most is in the desert where every > thing looks like the last thing you saw. Roger to that We have a lot of that in texas also. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 31, 1997
Earnie, My worse fear came true. After all your help Damark came up dry-sold out. Looks like I'll just have to stick with dead reckoning and my astro sextant in the piet. Thanks, Ted >> >> Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers >> >club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a >> >bargain. Good luck . Ernie >> > >> Ernie, >> >> Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the list >> doesn't call and cause a run on them... >> >> Ted Brousseau/APF ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: What is a babbit/babbiting?
Date: Jul 31, 1997
>Or is it "babbet/babbeting"? In any case, I know bupkis about the Model A= >and have seen that term many times. Any clarification would be greatly >appreciated. > > Well, with my poor english I will try to explain my experience in this area: About 30 years ago I tried to rebuild a Model A Ford, as a teenager never got enough money to finish it and finily changed it for a new VW! When I rebuilded the engine I got the conecting rod "rebabited" by an old mechanic... The new cars hace the conecting rod bearings as two shells that are oversized as the amount of grinding the cranksahft needs (.010, .020, etc.).... In the old times there was no "spare" bearings, you had to send your crankshaft to a grinder and also send the conecting rods to "melt the babbit" (in M=E9xico EMBABBITAR) in the conecting rod with enough material= to, proceed to close the conecting rod "circle". each conecting rod was then "honned" or "calibrated" exactly to the especificactions (tolerances) then it was tested (each one in his position in the crankshaft) with a litlle blue string like "clay" that was messured the amount it expanded when "torqued" with a special gauge.... it it was to "wide" it needed more amount of grinding.... If the operator was not good enough and got more grinding, then he needed to "remelt" it again and beguin once more.... lots of work. Hope a got explained good enough to get understud. Saludos (no more) :-(=09 EAA Chapter 1039 President ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(50%)(own design)FAI= legal Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the= GPS!) "Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian= Taber (When we involve anyone else in flying we should be held to a high standard in term of medical, trainnig and plane upkeeping - Julian Taber) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 31, 1997
Attention: Ted Brousseau Hello Ted, How in the heck can you use an astro sextant and fly a Pietenpol at the same time???? I have a friend here who has a Pietenpol and he uses a pretty ordinary (if there is such a thing) GPS that was not specifically designed for aeronautical navigation. He is a trained avionics technician and says it is easy to program for aviation use. It cost him only about $250 Canadian currency (approximately $180 in U.S. dollars). I may see him this evening because it looks like fine Pietenpol weather, and will get some details. Me? I use the time-tested dead reckoning/ greasy finger-on-a-pen- cil-line-across-the-map method. But I understand that some of you don't have our generally-clear skies and wide open spaces, and it is nice to know one's exact location in haze while threading one's way through a mess of towers and restricted airspace. Cheers, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 31, 1997
> > >Hello Ted, > >How in the heck can you use an astro sextant and fly a Pietenpol >at the same time???? Darn if I know. I have the astro sextant and don't have anyone to show me how to use it. I just figured that with the open cockpit the Piet might be a perfect platform to try... > >I have a friend here who has a Pietenpol and he uses a pretty >ordinary (if there is such a thing) GPS that was not specifically >designed for aeronautical navigation. That is exactly what I use. It is for boating and shuts down at 99kts. Don't have to worry about that in the Piet. I just program in my waypoints and it gets me there. I don't use it except to find strange airports that try to hide in the haze. Otherwise, I just follow the roads or high tension wires. Glad to see you still lurk on this list. Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Jul 31, 1997
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > Earnie, > > My worse fear came true. After all your help Damark came up dry-sold out. > Looks like I'll just have to stick with dead reckoning and my astro sextant > in the piet. > > Thanks, Ted > > >> >> Also I belong the the Damark preferred buyers > >> >club and got these for 15 or 17 $ with free shipping . A heck of a > >> >bargain. Good luck . Ernie > >> > > >> Ernie, > >> > >> Thanks for all the great info. I just hope everyone else on the list > >> doesn't call and cause a run on them... > >> > >> Ted Brousseau/APF Ted, sorry bout that. Ernie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Aug 01, 1997
Hi, > >I have a friend here who has a Pietenpol and he uses a pretty > >ordinary (if there is such a thing) GPS that was not specifically > >designed for aeronautical navigation. > > That is exactly what I use. It is for boating and shuts down at 99kts. > Don't have to worry about that in the Piet. I just program in my waypoints > and it gets me there. I don't use it except to find strange airports that > try to hide in the haze. Otherwise, I just follow the roads or high tension > wires. > Ted Brousseau/APF One navigational device that seems to be overlooked these days is the Loran C. True, the GPS has dominated the new market and I don't believe anyone is still selling new Lorans. However, there are tonnes of them on the used market. I bought a 5 year old Apollo 618 with database, tray, antenna, and all the goodies for $100. Just try and find a panel mount GPS for less than $1000. Even $2000 is a challenge. Loran C still works and will continue to work for at least 8 more years, possibly longer. By then, there should be some cheaper, used, panel mount GPS's on the market. Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Aug 01, 1997
I have looked at some non Aviation GPS's. The Megellen (spelling?) is the only one that will go above 99kts. Know you do not need that in a Piet, but if you happen to be in something else it is nice. In a Piet if you get to lost just land in a field and ask someone where you are. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Aug 01, 1997
Hi, > I have looked at some non Aviation GPS's. The Megellen (spelling?) is the > only one that will go above 99kts. Know you do not need that in a Piet, but > if you happen to be in something else it is nice. In a Piet if you get to > lost just land in a field and ask someone where you are. Check out the new Garmin 12XL. According to the Garmin web page, it's not speed limited. ( http://www.garmin.com ) Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Navigation.
Date: Aug 01, 1997
Ken Beanlands wrote: One navigational device that seems to be overlooked these days is the Loran C. > True, the GPS has dominated the new market and I don't believe anyone > is still > selling new Lorans. However, there are tonnes of them on the used > market. I > bought a 5 year old Apollo 618 with database, tray, antenna, and all > the > goodies for $100. Just try and find a panel mount GPS for less than > $1000. > Even $2000 is a challenge. Loran C still works and will continue to > work for > at least 8 more years, possibly longer. By then, there should be some > cheaper, > used, panel mount GPS's on the market. > > Ken All true, but who has panel mounted any radio in a piet/nav piece in a piet. I have yet to see a piet with even so much as a transponder or DME. Not many piets have any (intentional) ifr time on them. :) As for the 99KT limitation. I have tested a couple newer non-aviation models including the Magellen 12XL (very nice) and both function at over 200mph. --gotta find a faster airplane to test my GPS. Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mahal5(at)juno.com (Emily Williamson)
Subject: I needed the dimentions of the wooden parts of the piet.
Date: Aug 01, 1997
I didnt make it clear what I needed but I need the size demintions on all the wood parts in the piet so we can start cutting them out . As of now we are having to save money to buy the plans you see. Thank you Emelita W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Schober <classair(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: I needed the dimentions of the wooden parts of the
piet.
Date: Aug 03, 1997
Before you even think of cutting wood GET THE PLANS!!!! The few dollars that you spend on the plans will help you organize the project and save $ in the long run. Cutting the wood is about the easiest part of the proj= ect but could be the most expensive. Decide on where you are going to bui= ld the airplane. Most of the parts can be done in a small area. for the fuselage I would suggest building a table 16 feet by four feet. Lay out the fuselage sides on the table with the upper longerons in the center and make the table into a jig. Make the small parts first. if you make a mistake, it costs less to rebui= ld it and takes less time. I'd start with the wing ribs. They are relativ= ly easy and small enough that storage isn't a problem and all the wood is rectangular. After the ribs I'd build the tail components. A little bigger and a little more complex. The leading edges and trailing edges require milling them to shape. Once thats done then it's time for the fus= elage then the wing. On the wing, use the strut attach fittings that are shown on the 3 piece wing supplament and use jury struts. Keep in mind that weight is a very important issue. There can be a 100 pound variation in the empty weight of these airplanes. The more it weigh= s, the less performance that can be expected. As for specific sizes of wood required, each airplane is different. I don= 't think there are 2 airplanes alike. Even those that follow the plans to the letter will be different due to the jigs that the builder used to build them. I don't know of anyone that has a specific bill of material for the aircamper since there are several variations (long fuselage/ shor= t fuselage). The dimensions of the wood will also vary from plane to plan= e. An example is the longerons are 1" X 1" on the plans. These pieces are= actualy 15/16" X 15/16" on airplanes that were build by Mr. Pietenpol. As I mentioned in my previous E-Mail all sizes on the plans are nominal and they are actualy to the center of the kerf of the blade. If you want a good flying airplane, follow the plans and keep it light. Use the one piece wing and use a Model A engine. Buy the plans now so you= can make the necessary decisions ahead of time as to which fuselage, if you want the extended strut length (front cockpit acessability), landing gear design and several other variables. Live with the plans for a while before you start making parts. Once you start cutting parts out it's hard= to change. I hope this helps you. I know i didn't answer your question but if you cut wood before you have the plans you will wish you did it the other way= around. One more comment, use Sitka Spruce rather than Douglas Fir. It's lighter.= It may cost more but you will have a better airplane. > > I didnt make it clear what I needed but I need the size demintions on all > the wood parts in the piet so we can start cutting them out . As of now > we are having to save money to buy the plans you see. > > Thank you > Emelita W > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: spring
Date: Aug 03, 1997
Doug Hunt wrote: > Hope i'am sending this to the correct address.I'am wondering if anyone > has > a part# for the john deere sring used for the tailwheel,that i have > heard / > read of ??? > I am building a corvair powered piet with 60" warp drive prop. > Thanks for now Doug Hunt... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: I needed the dimentions of the wooden parts of the
piet.
Date: Aug 04, 1997
<< Subj: Re: I needed the dimentions of the wooden parts of the piet. Date: 97-08-03 09:09:39 EDT From: classair(at)frontiernet.net (David Schober) Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu Reply-to: piet(at)byu.edu (Pietenpol Discussion) To: piet(at)byu.edu (Pietenpol Discussion) Before you even think of cutting wood GET THE PLANS!!!! The few dollars that you spend on the plans will help you organize the project and save $ in the long run. Cutting the wood is about the easiest part of the project but could be the most expensive. Decide on where you are going to build the airplane. Most of the parts can be done in a small area. for the fuselage I would suggest building a table 16 feet by four feet. Lay out the fuselage sides on the table with the upper longerons in the center and make the table into a jig. Make the small parts first. if you make a mistake, it costs less to rebuild it and takes less time. I'd start with the wing ribs. They are relativly easy and small enough that storage isn't a problem and all the wood is rectangular. After the ribs I'd build the tail components. A little bigger and a little more complex. The leading edges and trailing edges require milling them to shape. Once thats done then it's time for the fuselage then the wing. On the wing, use the strut attach fittings that are shown on the 3 piece wing supplament and use jury struts. Keep in mind that weight is a very important issue. There can be a 100 pound variation in the empty weight of these airplanes. The more it weighs, the less performance that can be expected. As for specific sizes of wood required, each airplane is different. I don't think there are 2 airplanes alike. Even those that follow the plans to the letter will be different due to the jigs that the builder used to build them. I don't know of anyone that has a specific bill of material for the aircamper since there are several variations (long fuselage/ short fuselage). The dimensions of the wood will also vary from plane to plane. An example is the longerons are 1" X 1" on the plans. These pieces are actualy 15/16" X 15/16" on airplanes that were build by Mr. Pietenpol. As I mentioned in my previous E-Mail all sizes on the plans are nominal and they are actualy to the center of the kerf of the blade. If you want a good flying airplane, follow the plans and keep it light. Use the one piece wing and use a Model A engine. Buy the plans now so you can make the necessary decisions ahead of time as to which fuselage, if you want the extended strut length (front cockpit acessability), landing gear design and several other variables. Live with the plans for a while before you start making parts. Once you start cutting parts out it's hard to change. I hope this helps you. I know i didn't answer your question but if you cut wood before you have the plans you will wish you did it the other way around. One more comment, use Sitka Spruce rather than Douglas Fir. It's lighter. It may cost more but you will have a better airplane. >> Thank you for the answer. Not my question but has given me a plan of attack. Started wing rib jig last night. I'm on my way..... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Brodhead '97
Date: Aug 04, 1997
Here's my report: One Piet at Oshkosh, Six at Brodhead. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 04, 1997
Mike, So what is up with that. Sounds like I shouldn't be too bummed that I didn't get there. Anyone else care to report? Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: RE: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 04, 1997
I don't think that 6 really gives the total picture of the activity at Brodhead. I am guessing that 6 was the number of FLYING Pietenpols. (Even then it seems a bit low, but I didn't count) There were nearly that many in various stages of construction as well, which gave a great opportunity to look at the parts that can't be seen on the completed airplane. There were a couple of Pietenpol Scouts under construction as well as the Aircampers. Add the Pietenpol forum (moved from Oshkosh because of problems getting a time slot), a forum on Model A engines, and the many knowlegable and FRIENDLY people and I say it was well worth the trip! BTW, there were several antique cars and antique airplanes around as well as a bunch of other homebuilts and factory planes. Jim Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 04, 1997 3:53 PM
Subject: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Mike, So what is up with that. Sounds like I shouldn't be too bummed that I didn't get there. Anyone else care to report? Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 04, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Mike, > > So what is up with that. Sounds like I shouldn't be too bummed that I > didn't get there. > > Anyone else care to report? > > Steve E. Actually at the Saturday evening affair 15 or 16 were report as being there, counting those based at Brodhead. For my part, the three seminars on Saturday were worth the price of admission. Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 05, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Mike, > > So what is up with that. Sounds like I shouldn't be too bummed that I > didn't get there. > > Anyone else care to report? > > Steve E. Actually, I would like to amend my earlier report. As I sit here on Tuesday morning wearing my new Pietenpol hat, my new Pietenpol shirt, drinking from my new Pietenpol coffee cup remembering the sights and sounds of the past weekend, it was great. :) :) TTYL Bob B. of the past weekend ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 05, 1997
I made it by briefly on the way back from the convention on Sunday. Not many Piets by then, seemed like most had left the previous day. Got to watch a young fella fire up his Model A mounted on an uncovered fuselage for the first time. That is one funky motor!! Starts and runs like an A 65. That was worth the detour. I want one. A couple of fellas were planning on converting to dual ignition. With dual mags you've got a real -if heavy- aircraft engine there. The countryside between Madison and Brodhead is absolutely gorgeous as well. The only Piet at Osh was the same guy from last year with the 30s Navy paint scheme. Had an almost identical conversation with him, a real life deja vu. There was also a Grega that was also there last year. That was it as far as I could tell. Many homebuilts that used to go to Oshkosh in large numbers no longer seem to go (excepts RVs). I miss the conventions of the 70s. John Kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: What is a babbit/babbiting?
Date: Aug 05, 1997
writes: Or is it "babbet/babbeting"? In any case, I know bupkis about the Model A and have seen that term many times. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. Rebabbitting is the act of pouring melted metal (babbit) into the engine block where the crankshaft runs. Modern engines have replaceable bearing shells. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: August Kitplanes, Jim Wier rips on Piets
Date: Aug 05, 1997
Once again Piets make it into Kitplanes, August 1997. Check out page 85, "We gotta have more bandwith Scotty, or the things gonna blow!" In the article, Jim Wier says "...if folks never wanted to do 'better,' we'd still be building Pietenpols with Model A engines instead of plastic pocket rockets." Fortunately Kitplanes came to our defense and told Jim to check out Brodhead. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: RE: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 05, 1997
Remember.....it isn't quantity, it's quality!!! Bill S. >---------- >From: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu] >Sent: Monday, August 04, 1997 1:53 PM >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!? > >Mike, > >So what is up with that. Sounds like I shouldn't be too bummed that I >didn't get there. > >Anyone else care to report? > >Steve E. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 05, 1997
A (Robert M. Bailey) wrote: > >Actually, I would like to amend my earlier report. As I sit here on >Tuesday morning wearing my new Pietenpol hat, my new Pietenpol shirt, >drinking from my new Pietenpol coffee cup remembering the sights and >sounds of the past weekend, it was great. :) :) >TTYL Bob B. >of the past weekend > Bob is exactly correct. It is a real shot in the arm to see real live Piets and Piet people, forums, etc. I guess I was spoiled a few years back when they had about 15 or so in the pattern buzzing the daylights out of the e-w runway. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Oh boy. Six piets at brodhead!?
Date: Aug 06, 1997
Mike, So what is up with that. Sounds like I shouldn't be too bummed that I didn't get there. Anyone else care to report? Steve E. The usual good time was had at Brodhead. There were 18 white caps given out. Everyone with a Pietenpol there gets a white cap. Bill Knight was left out, but I made enough noise and personally gave him his. I don't know exactly how many Piets FLEW there, but there were 18 that were on the field. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: fuselage long or short
Date: Aug 06, 1997
Hello all, What is the so-called long fuselage? I have the improved plans and on drawing no. 1 dated 1 -19 -33 the side view of the fuselage frame gives the total length of 13 feet 7 inches. Is the the long or short fuselage? Which is the preferred setup? Thanks Bob B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Brodhead 'n stuff
Date: Aug 06, 1997
Greetings all! (Especially those who were at Brodhead and who I didn't meet...) A red-letter week for me, never been to Oshkosh before, let alone Brodhead (didn't know what a Piet was this time last year ;-) Both shows were a gas, though I was disappointed by the low Piet turnout at the big show. Bill Rawley's Piet was there, and the afore-mentioned GN-1. Talked to Bill for a bit about his project, and it was great to finally see a Piet up close. At Brodhead, I was amazed at the beautiful cream and red jobbie, with laminated wood struts and straight-axle gear, resplendent with wire wheels - talk about inspiring! Mind you, the rest of the flock looked as pretty as punch, and especially at home on the grass field. The funky German camo-schemed number was a hoot, with a couple fake (I hope?!?) machine guns where the front cockpit might be. Finally got up the gall to ask Bernie (who's last name I didn't get, more evidence of my glowing people skills ;-) for a ride in his little red 75-hp number (I hope I'm getting all these factoids right). The front cockpit was a little tricky to negotiate for this 6'2" klutz, but once inside, it was much roomier than I had imagined it would be. Turning crosswind, I did for a fleeting moment suffer a bit of "Ohmygodsomeguybuiltthisinhisgarage-itis", but it was quickly (*very* quickly) replaced by sheer, utter flying joy. I'd never been in an open cockpit before, and the wind and noise were comfortable, even without goggles or headset. Suffice to say, I knew that I'd have to start dusting off those plans and get going. After landing (and twisting myself out of the 'pit), I wandered over to where some guys were watching an 'A' run on the uncovered fuselage. Aside from drooling over the woodwork (very tasty, as far as my untrained eye could see) and the nice woven-cane seats, I got to see and hear an 'A' running. Let me just say that it gave me pause to reconsider my desire to put a radial on my project. Them Fords sure do sound nice, and a good dose of 'funky' can make all the difference in a design. All in all, most enjoyable. Got to fly back to Los Angeles in a Yak-52, which didn't hurt my outlook, either. My butt, on the other hand, hurt like hell ;-) Happy flying to all, and happy building! Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Schober <classair(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: fuselage long or short
Date: Aug 07, 1997
The drawing you have is for the short fuselage. The long fuselage drawing= is on the supplementary plans with no date or title block. The drawing shows a fuselage length of 172 3/8". It also shows a better strut attach fitting for the wing. The original strut attach fitting comes down from the spar and forms an angle where it attaches to the strut. This puts a twisting moment on the bolts going through the spar. The supplementary plans show a strut attach fitting that when installed, will be directly in line with the strut so all attach bolts are in the same plane as the strut. Much better arrangement. If you use the modified strut attach, don= 't forget that you have to adjust the routing on the spar to accomidate the wider area occupied by the fitting. As to which fuselage is best, how tall are you? If you feel comfortable in a short fuselage, thats what I would build. The longer fuselage was designed primarily to give a longer tail moment to make up for the longer= nose needed for an A-65 or Corvair installation. The main advantage is a larger cockpit. Either one works fine with any of the engines. > Hello all, > What is the so-called long fuselage? I have the improved plans and on > drawing no. 1 dated 1 -19 -33 the side view of the fuselage frame gives > the total length of 13 feet 7 inches. Is the the long or short > fuselage? Which is the preferred setup? > Thanks Bob B. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: RE: Brodhead 'n stuff
Date: Aug 07, 1997
Steve, what radial are you considering for your project? I am not building yet but, I was thinking a small radial would be nice --haven't heard an "A" yet though. Carl J. Hixon Project Engineer_______________________ Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121 Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: RE: Brodhead 'n stuff
Date: Aug 07, 1997
>Steve, what radial are you considering for your project? I am not >building yet but, I was thinking a small radial would be nice --haven't >heard an "A" yet though. Well, even though I've heard from quite a few people that the HCI radial (the one made from VW cylinders) is too light, I like the looks of it (who am I to let a little thing like weight and balance to interfere with coolness? :-) I guess I'll take a closer look when they're further along with its development. Maybe putting a little bit of electrical in would bring the weight up. Maybe not. Then again, at Oshkosh they were showing a 3-cylinder radial from the makers of the M14 Russian 9-cyl. That one might be a bit too heavy, though. And Zoche is making a 4-cyl. 150HP radial that might be a bit much power, but the weight might work. And I understand that there's a LeBlonde (sp?) that some people have put on. As you can tell, I haven't gotten too far past the "Gee, a radial would be cool!" phase... Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Brodhead 'n stuff
Date: Aug 08, 1997
writes: Steve, what radial are you considering for your project? I am not building yet but, I was thinking a small radial would be nice -haven't heard an "A" yet though. Well, even though I've heard from quite a few people that the HCI radial (the one made from VW cylinders) is too light, I like the looks of it (who am I to let a little thing like weight and balance to interfere with coolness? :-) I guess I'll take a closer look when they're further along with its development. Maybe putting a little bit of electrical in would bring the weight up. Maybe not. Then again, at Oshkosh they were showing a 3-cylinder radial from the makers of the M14 Russian 9-cyl. That one might be a bit too heavy, though. And Zoche is making a 4-cyl. 150HP radial that might be a bit much power, but the weight might work. And I understand that there's a LeBlonde (sp?) that some people have put on. As you can tell, I haven't gotten too far past the "Gee, a radial would be cool!" phase... Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging Steve: I'm surprised, even shocked that you did not find the three (yes, 3) HCI radials being built on the field - at Brodhead. He is coming right along with them. Dick Weeden is his name, and he has the hangar closest to the road. I believe he was there on saturday, but he had the engines sort of hidden in the north west corner of the building. Also, Frank Pavliga has, and almost has on his Piet, a Russian 3 cylinder radial. I'll report on it when I know anything. He has it running on a stand. His Piet was flying at the T'craft fly-in on 7/4/97 TTYL JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Re: Brodhead 'n stuff
Date: Aug 08, 1997
>Steve: > I'm surprised, even shocked that you did not find the three (yes, >3) HCI >radials being built on the field - at Brodhead. He is coming right along >with them. >Dick Weeden is his name, and he has the hangar closest to the road. I >believe he was there on saturday, but he had the engines sort of hidden >in the north west >corner of the building. Also, Frank Pavliga has, and almost has on his >Piet, a Russian 3 cylinder radial. I'll report on it when I know >anything. He has it running on a stand. His Piet was flying at the >T'craft fly-in on 7/4/97 Well, I just kinda floundered around Brodhead...I never made it over to the far hangars where the two-tone blue Piet was (along with the other planes over there), and missed most of the forum activity. I hope to get there earlier and stay longer next time. Please do let me know more when you hear from Frank about his radial. I'm encouraged! Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mahal5(at)juno.com (Emily Williamson)
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Aug 08, 1997
unsubscribe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com>
Subject: Re: Brodhead 'n stuff
Date: Aug 10, 1997
Steve Pugh wrote: > > As you can tell, I haven't gotten too far past the "Gee, a radial would be > cool!" phase... > A year back was wondering what engine to put in my "abaout to happen" Piet. Finally came to the conclusion that I didn't need to know in order to start building the rest! The front end of the fuselage is either of two configurations; one is a simple firewall with four hardpoints to hook a mount to. The other is pretty much the same, but leaves an opening into the upper forward fuselage area to let parts of the Ford-A hang back into. My decision was to start building a non-A configuration, and sort out the engine details later. I'm confident that the ability to shift the wing back and forth will let me get weight/balance right. And if things get really bad and I use one of those really light powerful engines, I'll just hang a little lead on the engine mount and have a package that still weighs less than the "A" engine (but more horses). I realize today that if I would have begun building the smallest bits and pieces of a Piet thirty years ago I'd have it flying today. Too soon too olt, und too late too schmart. If any of you think I'm doing something wrong don't tell me. I'm having too much fun building this thing to let reality get in the way. :) Go get 'em, Dick Winkel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Waiting to build
Date: Aug 10, 1997
>A year back was wondering what engine to put in my "abaout to happen" >Piet. >Finally came to the conclusion that I didn't need to know in order to >start building the rest! Exactly. I figure that the wing ribs don't know any better, so why should I wait to build them? All I hafta do now is finish up the myriad other projects (or, rather, at least pretend to get closer to finishing them)...but soon, soooooooooon... >I realize today that if I would have begun building the smallest bits >and pieces of a Piet thirty years ago I'd have it flying today. >Too soon too olt, und too late too schmart. Well, if I'd started building 30 years ago, my mom woulda had some difficulties ;-) Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: Radials (Was: Brodhead 'n stuff)
Date: Aug 11, 1997
Gentlemen, The Piet with the LeBlonde radial was at Brodhead however it did not have that engine on it any longer. It was in the back of a hanger with a Ford A engine being installed on it. It is dark green with a red (?) stripe down the sides. I have seen it flying in previous years. The LeBlonde sure made a neat looking plane and flew well too. Several years ago they had some problems with the engine (cracked crank). I asked around this year and got the story: After more trouble with the engine they decided they needed a more reliable power plant. Jim > >>Steve, what radial are you considering for your project? I am not >>building yet but, I was thinking a small radial would be nice --haven't >>heard an "A" yet though. > >Well, even though I've heard from quite a few people that the HCI radial >(the one made from VW cylinders) is too light, I like the looks of it (who >am I to let a little thing like weight and balance to interfere with >coolness? :-) > >I guess I'll take a closer look when they're further along with its >development. Maybe putting a little bit of electrical in would bring the >weight up. Maybe not. > >Then again, at Oshkosh they were showing a 3-cylinder radial from the >makers of the M14 Russian 9-cyl. That one might be a bit too heavy, >though. And Zoche is making a 4-cyl. 150HP radial that might be a bit much >power, but the weight might work. And I understand that there's a LeBlonde >(sp?) that some people have put on. > >As you can tell, I haven't gotten too far past the "Gee, a radial would be >cool!" phase... > > >Cheers, > > Steve Pugh > Senior Systems Engineer > Foundation Imaging > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 12, 1997
I am seeing some discussion on using the two part very expensive epoxy for varnishing the fuselage and wing ribs/spars. I am sure that the two part epoxy was not invented back in the twenties and thirties. Any comments out there in the real world about why one would do a $150.00 vs a $20.00 varithane or even good old spar varnish. Are there any limitations down the road which you shpould use regarding ceconite or other covering. I have been doing lots of reading, but am not getting any clearer. Your comments would sure be appreciated! I hope to have the fuselage epoxied/varnished before winter so that it can go in cold storage until spring without worrying about condensation etc. Best regards, -=Ian=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com (James T. VanDervort)
Subject: Re: Radials (Was: Brodhead 'n stuff)
Date: Aug 13, 1997
Yes, but my gosh, they had over 400 hours on the Leblond. In it's prime, it was considered a 500 hour engine. The crank broke over the Mississippi, and he (Davis), landed at Pararie du Chein. (or however!). I flew to Brodhead once to get Davis's Stinson, because the cam drive broke at Cresco, IA. It has spit pushrods out all over WI. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 13, 1997
Spend the extra 130 clams on epoxy, Ian!!! Epoxy varnish has brought the wooden boat business back from total oblivion. The reason being that epoxy varnish makes a wooden structure completely immune to moisture. The wood is literally "encapsulated" and there is no significant water propagation through an epoxy coating, unlike polyurethane. The Gougon brothers were wooden yacht makers and developed the "West System" epoxy system for their boats. Their wood/epoxy yachts will last as long as a glass one. They produced a hard cover book on their system you might be able to find at the library. There is a thriving wooden boat industry today, and you'll have a hard time finding anybody building wooden boats without epoxy. The long term benefits are too great to skimp on price in this case. I would have no problem keeping an epoxy finished wooden airplane outside insofar as the wooden structure is concerned. Read "Wooden Boat" magazine and you'll get the idea. John Kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 13, 1997
Ian- Superflite said whatever you use to seal your wood, make sure you can rub a rag wet with MEK solvent on it and not disturb the finish. I tried this on polyurethaned wood and is failed the MEK test. I opted for coating all my wood-to-fabric glue locations with a thin brush coat of DuPont 222S sealer. This stuff is about 45 $ a gallon but will do the entire airplane. It goes on like water and seals the varnish/polyurethane against the effects of MEK. Likewise the 222S will seal zinc chromated parts you may have spray painted on like most of us. (or whatever primer used) The 222S can also be easily sprayed on anything. A thin coat is all you want.....any more can loosen the varnish before it dries (and it dries right quick) You can attach fabric after only about 1/2 hour after that. Not real easy to find. Not all auto/ paint stores carry it. Call ahead to save some driving around. (go flying with the spare time) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 13, 1997
I 'd like to add my 2-bits. I'm currently building a wooden kayak utilizing epoxy in a "stitch and glue" process and John is right in that epoxy has revitalized the boating industry - however - in reading the instructions and books as John recommends I've learned that epoxy does get soft with heat. The reason I mention this is the recent concerns about glues like Weldwood deteriorating with heat. I forget the figures but a plane sitting on the ramp can develop some pretty high temperatures in closed areas like the wings. Also, I know that in the old Stitts process, it is important to use their primer and varnish because they're formulated to chemically bond with the next layer in the process and other brands made not adhere properly. One last consideration is weight. I believe varnish would be lighter. Once again, if it was good enough for Bernie, it's good enough for me! Besides, some of those varnished ships are still flying after 50+ years. For those that remember, I think it was 90 when there was a fun discussion around the campfire at Brodhead about the Speed Queen water pump being better than the Maytag or Whirlpool, but it took me quite a while to locate a metal housed Speed Queen. Sometimes I think the scavenger hunt to Model A meets and lumber yards is half the fun of building these ships. Bill Sayre Computer Support The NEW Boeing Company ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 13, 1997
Ian Holland wrote: > > I am seeing some discussion on using the two part very expensive epoxy for > varnishing the fuselage and wing ribs/spars. I am sure that the two part > epoxy was not invented back in the twenties and thirties. > > Any comments out there in the real world about why one would do a $150.00 > vs a $20.00 varithane or even good old spar varnish. Are there any > limitations down the road which you shpould use regarding ceconite or other > covering. About the only thing wrong with "varnish" is it might not react too well with your covering system/solvents. The Stits process will cause the varnish to "lift off" over varnish unless a 2-part system is used to seal off the varnish. I am "varnishing my project and using the 2-part/sealer where wood would be in contact with the Stits products along glue joints (where fabric is glued to frame, ribs etc) and points where fabric contacts the frame/s. Others?.... Gary... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Schober <classair(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 13, 1997
The only reason for a 2 part epoxy varnish would be if the cover process (finish materials) would lift standard varnish. If you are using dope, spar varnish or verathane would be OK. > I am seeing some discussion on using the two part very expensive epoxy for > varnishing the fuselage and wing ribs/spars. I am sure that the two par= t > epoxy was not invented back in the twenties and thirties. > > Any comments out there in the real world about why one would do a $150.= 00 > vs a $20.00 varithane or even good old spar varnish. Are there any > limitations down the road which you shpould use regarding ceconite or other > covering. > > I have been doing lots of reading, but am not getting any clearer. > > Your comments would sure be appreciated! > > I hope to have the fuselage epoxied/varnished before winter so that it can > go in cold storage until spring without worrying about condensation etc= . > > Best regards, > -Ian- > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com (James T. VanDervort)
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 13, 1997
Mr. Pietenpol doped his wood. He said it was out of the weather, anyhow. JimV., ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stockberger
Subject: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 13, 1997
I've just finished my wing jig and done one test rib. I've got a couple of questions. When I mill the wood for the ribs do I want the growth rings to be parallel with the surface of the wing or do I want them to be perpendicular. If perpendicular is OK I can cut my wood more efficiently. I have heard about laminated wing spars. What are they? Also, what is the 3 piece wing? How is is constructed? How much weight does the 3 piece add to the airplane? How long does it take to rig it? Thanks Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com P.S. With just one Wing Rib built, you can sit in a chair, hold the rib out to the side at arm's length and make airplane noises. I can tell already that the Pietenpol is an excellent flier with balanced, responsive controls, good visibility and excellent manuverability. :-) Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Schober <classair(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 14, 1997
The grain should run parallel to the surface of the wing. For info on woo= d structures read AC43.13-1a The chapters on wood repairs are well worth the investment. It is also a good guide for welding and fabric work. Laminated spars are built up from several smaller pieces of wood, usually= 1X1 or 3/4X1, put together, glued and clamped. The advantage is that you= can use smaller pieces of wood to build up the spar. If you don't have stock long enough, you can scarf pieces together to make the length. A word of caution, if you scarf them don't have any scarf joints ovelap and= don't have any of them in the area where fittings will be. Some people don't like to route the built up spars but I don't see any problem with that. The 3 piece wing weighes about 6 lbs. more. You can also build a 2 piece wing by only having one removable wing panel and the other "1/2" includes= the center section. It's not symetrical but it saves about 3 lbs. Remember weight is the downfall of these airplanes. Build them as light as you can and you will have a good performing airplane. Check out the discussion on wood sizes. all the dimensions are nominal and the original= airplanes were built with undersized components. All the dimensions were= to the center of the kerf of the blade. David Schober > I've just finished my wing jig and done one test rib. I've got a coupl= e > of questions. > > When I mill the wood for the ribs do I want the growth rings to be para= llel > with the surface of the wing or do I want them to be perpendicular. If > perpendicular is OK I can cut my wood more efficiently. > > I have heard about laminated wing spars. What are they? > > Also, what is the 3 piece wing? How is is constructed? How much weight does > the 3 piece add to the airplane? How long does it take to rig it? > > Thanks > > Randy Stockberger > stockberger(at)proaxis.com > > P.S. With just one Wing Rib built, you can sit in a chair, hold the rib= out > to the side at arm's length and make airplane noises. I can tell alread= y > that the Pietenpol is an excellent flier with balanced, responsive cont= rols, > good visibility and excellent manuverability. :-) > Randy Stockberger > stockberger(at)proaxis.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com (James T. VanDervort)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 14, 1997
Mr. Pietenpol said the three piece wing was 17 pounds heavier. I heard him say it. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: laur-mac(at)ArkansasUSA.com (LAUR-MAC, INC.)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 14, 1997
The one piece wing sounds better to me, but wouldn't it be difficult to find such a long piece of perfectly straight spruce? Ken Goff laur-mac(at)arkansasusa.com > From: James T. VanDervort <jimvan1(at)juno.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 8:36 PM > > Mr. Pietenpol said the three piece wing was 17 pounds heavier. I heard > him say it. > > JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 15, 1997
LAUR-MAC, INC. wrote: > > The one piece wing sounds better to me, but wouldn't it be difficult to > find such a long piece of perfectly straight spruce? > > Ken Goff > laur-mac(at)arkansasusa.com > > ---------- Nah... just takes a few $$$$$$$$$ and a splice to make one very long stick to play with ;) I have had my spruce for several years and am at last beginning to assemble my one piece wing. I am following the plans as indicated for a one piece wing, too my garage is a little larger than most (catch that again Mike C. - hate to brag ;) Gary... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 15, 1997
>last beginning to assemble my one piece wing. I am following the plans >as indicated for a one piece wing, too my garage is a little larger than >most (catch that again Mike C. - hate to brag ;) > >Gary... Gary- Yes, I admitt I am somewhat envious of you guys with MULTI-car garages.....and maybe having a pitty-party for myself while building in my living room and single car garage, but Steve E. and I are going to make up tee-shirts someday... :) MC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 14, 1997
Many thanks for all the responses! I will be looking at the covering process to be used, then making the decision. I have to look ahead and guess that sometime in the career, it may have to be stored outside rather than hangered. Such is reality! The epoxy sure sounds like a place for a value added investment. > From: Ian Holland > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Varnish or epoxy? > Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 21:43 PM > > I am seeing some discussion on using the two part very expensive epoxy for > varnishing the fuselage and wing ribs/spars. I am sure that the two part > epoxy was not invented back in the twenties and thirties. > > Any comments out there in the real world about why one would do a $150.00 > vs a $20.00 varithane or even good old spar varnish. Are there any > limitations down the road which you shpould use regarding ceconite or other > covering. > > I have been doing lots of reading, but am not getting any clearer. > > Your comments would sure be appreciated! > > I hope to have the fuselage epoxied/varnished before winter so that it can > go in cold storage until spring without worrying about condensation etc. > > Best regards, > -=Ian=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions
Date: Aug 15, 1997
If I had it to do over I would have built a one piece wing. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 15, 1997
I have some friends that are getting ready to paint a Horizon. do any of you know where they can get info on using latex house paint. They got a price at OSH from stits or someone for $1,200. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 15, 1997
Craig R. Lawler wrote: > I have some friends that are getting ready to paint a Horizon. do any > of > you know where they can get info on using latex house paint. They got > a > price at OSH from stits or someone for $1,200. > > Craig I did it on my piet. Learned a lot. Would do a few things differently next time, but I am satisfied (mostly) with my finish. Pick-up the article on alternative paint systems in the kitplanes issue of this month or last. Good article suggesting the use of floor paints. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Niwlyf(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 15, 1997
The latest Kitplane of Plane and Pilot had an artical about using non certified paints. The artical was exclent. I will look it up and send you what it was in. It went through stap by step how to do the painting. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Questions -Reply
Date: Aug 15, 1997
Craig, Could you expand on this a little bit? My partner and I are gettiing close to having to commit on the wing arrangement. I say one piece, he thinks three piece. I know the majority of people say they would do a one piece if they could do it over and I would like to know why. Thanks, Greg Cardinal >>> "Craig R. Lawler" 08/15/97 05:27am >>> If I had it to do over I would have built a one piece wing. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 20, 1997
> > I 'd like to add my 2-bits. I'm currently building a wooden kayak > utilizing epoxy in a "stitch and glue" process and John is right in that > epoxy has revitalized the boating industry - however - in reading the > instructions and books as John recommends I've learned that epoxy does > get soft with heat. The reason I mention this is the recent concerns > about glues like Weldwood deteriorating with heat. I forget the figures > but a plane sitting on the ramp can develop some pretty high > temperatures in closed areas like the wings. > > Also, I know that in the old Stitts process, it is important to use > their primer and varnish because they're formulated to chemically bond > with the next layer in the process and other brands made not adhere > properly. One last consideration is weight. I believe varnish would be > lighter. Once again, if it was good enough for Bernie, it's good enough > for me! Besides, some of those varnished ships are still flying after > 50+ years. > Bill Sayre > Computer Support > The NEW Boeing Company You got a point Bill, and I probably would not use West System on an airframe because the Gougon Brothers process relied on fairly heavy coats of resin, partly because they used it as stuctural component of the hull. However the Polyfibre folks (nee Stits) just happen to have an epoxy varnish that is used with their covering process. The guy at brodhead that I watched running his Model A for the first time told me he had varnished his airframe with the Polyfibre epoxy varnish. The heat is not a concern as far as a varnish coating is concerned, and I understand that the epoxy glues like FPL 16A are quite a bit more heat tolerant than the laminating resin used on composite airplanes so I don't think that is too much of a concern (Weldwood is a urea formaldehyde). If I was building a wooden airplane that I knew would always spend its life indoors, I would probably just go with marine spar varnish myself. Epoxy lets you keep it outside without the rot worries. I wanna build a stitch and glue kayak one of these days. Cheers John Kahn Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com (James T. VanDervort)
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 20, 1997
Kahn) writes: >> >> I 'd like to add my 2-bits. I'm currently building a wooden kayak >> utilizing epoxy in a "stitch and glue" process and John is right in >that >> epoxy has revitalized the boating industry - however - in reading >the >> instructions and books as John recommends I've learned that epoxy >does >> get soft with heat. The reason I mention this is the recent >concerns >> about glues like Weldwood deteriorating with heat. I forget the >figures >> but a plane sitting on the ramp can develop some pretty high >> temperatures in closed areas like the wings. >> >> Also, I know that in the old Stitts process, it is important to use >> their primer and varnish because they're formulated to chemically >bond >> with the next layer in the process and other brands made not adhere >> properly. One last consideration is weight. I believe varnish >would be >> lighter. Once again, if it was good enough for Bernie, it's good >enough >> for me! Besides, some of those varnished ships are still flying >after >> 50+ years. > >> Bill Sayre >> Computer Support >> The NEW Boeing Company > > >You got a point Bill, and I probably would not use West System on an >airframe because the Gougon Brothers process relied on fairly heavy >coats of resin, partly because they used it as stuctural component >of the hull. However the Polyfibre folks (nee Stits) just happen to >have an epoxy varnish that is used with their covering process. The >guy at brodhead that I watched running his Model A for the first time >told me he had varnished his airframe with the Polyfibre epoxy >varnish. > >The heat is not a concern as far as a varnish coating is concerned, >and >I understand that the epoxy glues like FPL 16A are quite a bit more >heat >tolerant than the laminating resin used on composite airplanes so I >don't >think that is too much of a concern (Weldwood is a urea formaldehyde). > >If I was building a wooden airplane that I knew would always spend its >life >indoors, I would probably just go with marine spar varnish myself. >Epoxy >lets you keep it outside without the rot worries. > >I wanna build a stitch and glue kayak one of these days. > >Cheers > >John Kahn >Bombardier Inc. Hey, you guys, Mr. Pietenpol (aka Bernie) finished his wood with nitrate dope. He told me so. JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy?
Date: Aug 21, 1997
Of all the issues so far, therehave been only two that made me really think hard. the answer to the first has lead to the answer for the second. The amount of WORK that has gone into the beast so far also has helped. Currently I am of the mind that once built, I NEVER want to go back into the critter for repairs and replacement. The Chat group has been very helpful in this reasoning also, and I want to thank every body again for their input. At this point I would not consider casein glue (even if the inspectors would let me). I also want to minimize any chance of water damage in possible outside storage. This dictates the use of epoxy. Following the reasoning, I have now removed ALL metal fittings, am stripping the zinc chromate and patio rust proofing, and am redoing the metal in epoxy primer. By using modern technology, it will still be a Piet. Thanks again for the input! > From: James T. VanDervort <jimvan1(at)juno.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Varnish or epoxy? > Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 21:56 PM > > > Kahn) writes: > >> > >> I 'd like to add my 2-bits. I'm currently building a wooden kayak > >> utilizing epoxy in a "stitch and glue" process and John is right in > >that > >> epoxy has revitalized the boating industry - however - in reading > >the > >> instructions and books as John recommends I've learned that epoxy > >does > >> get soft with heat. The reason I mention this is the recent > >concerns > >> about glues like Weldwood deteriorating with heat. I forget the > >figures > >> but a plane sitting on the ramp can develop some pretty high > >> temperatures in closed areas like the wings. > >> > >> Also, I know that in the old Stitts process, it is important to use > >> their primer and varnish because they're formulated to chemically > >bond > >> with the next layer in the process and other brands made not adhere > >> properly. One last consideration is weight. I believe varnish > >would be > >> lighter. Once again, if it was good enough for Bernie, it's good > >enough > >> for me! Besides, some of those varnished ships are still flying > >after > >> 50+ years. > > > >> Bill Sayre > >> Computer Support > >> The NEW Boeing Company > > > > > >You got a point Bill, and I probably would not use West System on an > >airframe because the Gougon Brothers process relied on fairly heavy > >coats of resin, partly because they used it as stuctural component > >of the hull. However the Polyfibre folks (nee Stits) just happen to > >have an epoxy varnish that is used with their covering process. The > >guy at brodhead that I watched running his Model A for the first time > >told me he had varnished his airframe with the Polyfibre epoxy > >varnish. > > > >The heat is not a concern as far as a varnish coating is concerned, > >and > >I understand that the epoxy glues like FPL 16A are quite a bit more > >heat > >tolerant than the laminating resin used on composite airplanes so I > >don't > >think that is too much of a concern (Weldwood is a urea formaldehyde). > > > >If I was building a wooden airplane that I knew would always spend its > >life > >indoors, I would probably just go with marine spar varnish myself. > >Epoxy > >lets you keep it outside without the rot worries. > > > >I wanna build a stitch and glue kayak one of these days. > > > >Cheers > > > >John Kahn > >Bombardier Inc. > > > > > > Hey, you guys, Mr. Pietenpol (aka Bernie) finished his wood with nitrate > dope. > He told me so. > > JimV. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Brodhead -Reply
Date: Aug 22, 1997
Mark, what is the condition of the engine you have for sale--hours, logs, etc? What is the price? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stockberger
Subject: Do I taper the tail?
Date: Aug 23, 1997
I'm in the process of milling the lumber for the tail surfaces. I have noticed that the leading edge and the main beam are different thicknesses. Does this mean that the end caps for the horizontal stabilizer and the elevators have to be tapered to match the leading and trailing edges? If I have to taper the end caps it will be a complicated operation since the rabbet will need a different taper than the outer dimensions. (The thickness goes from 3/4" at the leading edge to 1" at the main beam. The rabbet goes from 1/2" at the LE to 5/8" at the main beam.) An alternate method would be to go in with a chisel and match all the rabbets so the gusset plates would match up, then use a plane and sandpaper to fair all the mis-aligned outer surfaces. This would be easier, since there is only an 1/8" to 1/16" difference in these dimensions throughout the tail. How have other folks done this? Thanks in advance. Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com Corvallis, OR Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <Cardigj(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Do I taper the tail? -Reply
Date: Aug 23, 1997
Randy, We just completed our tail surfaces. I found many different ways to make the pieces fit. All of them work and after your done you will wonder why you fretted so much over it. At least I did. We cut the end caps the same dimension as the main beam. It was then tapered just under the gusset plate connecting the end cap with the leading and trailing edges. The gussets are sanded fair to the leading and trailing edges after gluing. The center beam is tapered under the gusset where it meets the end cap. Taper it equally on both sides. The leading and trailing edges are notched to accept the cap strips. One other thing that worked well was to miter the joint where the main beam meets the end caps. You'll get a nice corner without having to glue in any extra pieces to fill in the rabbit. Greg Cardinal >>> Stockberger 08/23/97 01:49pm >>> I'm in the process of milling the lumber for the tail surfaces. I have noticed that the leading edge and the main beam are different thicknesses. Does this mean that the end caps for the horizontal stabilizer and the elevators have to be tapered to match the leading and trailing edges? If I have to taper the end caps it will be a complicated operation since the rabbet will need a different taper than the outer dimensions. (The thickness goes from 3/4" at the leading edge to 1" at the main beam. The rabbet goes from 1/2" at the LE to 5/8" at the main beam.) An alternate method would be to go in with a chisel and match all the rabbets so the gusset plates would match up, then use a plane and sandpaper to fair all the mis-aligned outer surfaces. This would be easier, since there is only an 1/8" to 1/16" difference in these dimensions throughout the tail. How have other folks done this? Thanks in advance. Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com Corvallis, OR Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: propeller thrust line
Date: Aug 25, 1997
Working away at my terminal here, the mind wanders from work and... A question pops up... Does anybody on the list know if the Model A's vertical location is dictated by the thrust line or propeller length requirements, or is it that high simply to get the mag mount above the top longeron level. If you used a side mount mag a'la Funk, could you move the engine down a couple inches and still have propeller clearance and reasonable flight characteristics? The idea being to get the top of the engine out of the way as much as possible, and in conjunction with a chin mount rad, get the same forward visibility as with an aircraft engine. Comments?? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimvan1(at)juno.com (James T. VanDervort)
Subject: Re: propeller thrust line
Date: Aug 26, 1997
My only comment would be is if you start changing things like that, you will no longer have a Pietenpol. You can make a good airplane if you change the plans, but you will make a better one if you don't change the plans. I guess the point I am trying to make is "don't change the plans". ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: propeller thrust line
Date: Aug 26, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > > Working away at my terminal here, the mind wanders from work and... > > A question pops up... > > Does anybody on the list know if the Model A's vertical location is > dictated by the thrust line or propeller length requirements, or is > it that high simply to get the mag mount above the top longeron level. > > If you used a side mount mag a'la Funk, could you move the engine down > a couple inches and still have propeller clearance and reasonable > flight characteristics? The idea being to get the top of the engine > out of the way as much as possible, and in conjunction with a chin > mount rad, get the same forward visibility as with an aircraft engine. > > Comments?? A the seminar on the Model A held at Brodhead this year Lowell Frank said the the Piet didn't seem to be sensitive to changes in the line of thrust. If you convert to a full pressure lube system it is possible to invert the Model A a'la Funk. :) Also in a recent issue of the BPA Newsletter there was a V-8 powered Piet, I believe it had a lower thrust line. Bob B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SRXJimL(at)aol.com
Subject: piet chat group
Date: Aug 28, 1997
Hello I'm new to your group and not to sure what to do... I guess I'll find out soon enough! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: piet chat group
Date: Aug 29, 1997
SRXJimL(at)aol.com wrote: > > Hello I'm new to your group and not to sure what to do... I guess I'll find > out soon enough! Hello and welcome Jim, Why don't you tell the group a little about yourself. For my part I'm a two year member of BPA, have been to Brodhead twice. I'm just about ready to retire and am planning real serious construction activity to began on a Piet soon. Regards, Bob B. Missouri USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Polyfibre epoxy primer for metal
Date: Aug 29, 1997
Any one had any experience on brushing this stuff on to metal? Reading the label shows it is rather nasty to spray. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Polyfibre epoxy primer for metal
Date: Aug 29, 1997
You might get good results if you use an artist's sable-hair brush. Fine art quality brushes are the key to a really smooth brush-on finish. Certainly worth trying. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SRXJimL(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: piet chat group
Date: Aug 31, 1997
Hello everyone my name is Jim Lingenfelter. I live in Tidewater Virginia. I have been an A&P for 7 years, at first working on Navy A-6's, now working on a P-40E-1 for a place called the Fighter Factory. After we finish building the P-40, we have a Corsair to build. Boy do I love this job! My wife and I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for about 4 years now but kids, school, etc., etc. have kept us from starting. I bought the plans about 2 years ago, along with the plans for the aerial (biplane). Have any of you built the Aerial biplane? Please feel free to write me I love to talk airplanes! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SRXJimL(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Polyfibre epoxy primer for metal
Date: Aug 31, 1997
If you brush this stuff, remember to use a little more retardent so the brush strokes can flow out. Also, brush length wise along the part, parallel to the ground again so gravity can help the brush strokes flow out. Good luck! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SRXJimL(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Polyfibre epoxy primer for metal
Date: Aug 31, 1997
If you brush this stuff, remember to use a little more retardent so the brush strokes can flow out. Also, brush length wise along the part, parallel to the ground again so gravity can help the brush strokes flow out. Good luck! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: piet chat group
Date: Aug 31, 1997
SRXJimL(at)aol.com wrote: > > Hello everyone my name is Jim Lingenfelter. I live in Tidewater Virginia. I > have been an A&P for 7 years, at first working on Navy A-6's, now working on > a P-40E-1 for a place called the Fighter Factory. After we finish building > the P-40, we have a Corsair to build. Boy do I love this job! My wife and I > have wanted to build a Pietenpol for about 4 years now but kids, school, > etc., etc. have kept us from starting. I bought the plans about 2 years ago, > along with the plans for the aerial (biplane). Have any of you built the > Aerial biplane? > Please feel free to write me I love to talk airplanes! > Welcome Jim: Guess I couldn't talk you into trading jobs with me for awhile huh? My favoritis ever fighter is the P-40. I have a room full of pictures, photos etc of the P-40, especially like the Flying Tiger era. Have some signed stuff by R.T. Smith, (had to pick someone to shine after). (My other favorite is the WWI Nieuport). Guess you came to the right place to contact Piet builders, plenty of construction, advice and kibitzing here ;) You'll probably hear for yourself, but my vote is against the bi-wing, however you are the one deciding on what your project is to be, good luck... Gary... (South Texas) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Forward CG limit?\
Date: Sep 02, 1997
Well I have to say that I'm a little stoked today. Yesterday I put the wings on and fired up the engine, took lots of pictures and did my weight and balance. All up empty weight: 588.5 lbs! I am just a little aft (.5 inches) of the 20 inch cg limit. I will fix that with a wing move and hopefully loosing a little weight. (my wife is excited that there is added incentive for me---) Next task is filling out all the paperwork to get the FAA to make the trip. More photo's soon. BTW What is the story with the up ended piet on grants page? another BTW Mike C's got some good picts too! Keep building! Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Dear all, I was wondering when this might come up, and because of its seeming sensitive nature I chosen not to say anything up to this point. But since some recent posts have indicated a Pietenpol Purist air (pun intended) --And since I run this list--I submit the following as the "official" statement on the subject. (despite the seeming opposing view of wonderful newsletter editors.) While I certainly respect the "Don't-change-anything-thing-the-Piet-is-perfect-as-it-is" point of view, imposing it on other homebuilders of the fine design is a little irritating. Pietenpol himself was an innovator and I feel would be among the first to encourage a certain amount of innovation by builders. A buddy of mine is about to fly the first Subaru powered Piet I have seen, and when the old timers come around the hanger and ask where the model A is, his response is that "Bernie would be flying behind a subaru if he would have had one" I think that there is more than a degree of likelihood in this statement. With regard to airframe modifications: There is no commandment that you have to follow them. Not even Howard Henderson has a perfect "to-the-plans-piet" anyone who uses braided cable for drag/anti-drag wires or aluminum instead of "tern plate" has made modifications to the plans. Others have added a wing or used cub parts, or changed the airfoil--and still call it a Pietenpol. Granted it really isn't an Air Camper anymore, but it is still someone's vision of what they want in airplane. Changes to the plans are ok so long as you know what you are doing, which brings me to the point of this post. I believe that a zealous rush to defend the design as it sits on paper is the type of response that has a tendency to stifle open discussion and acts to discourage people from asking questions. I suggest that folks not rush so quickly to the "don't change anything response" when others ask sincere honest questions. After all if we really wanted to pick a nit, none of us have a true Pietenpol unless we bought one built by Bernard himself. Respectfully Steve e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Regarding Steve E's pure Piet comments: None of Bernard's Piets were exactly like the other because he was a continual innovator and experimenter. That's the beauty of home building. You build it the way you want it. I personally think they are ALL neat. Model A, Corvair, Subaru, Cont. /Lyc Fiesta, 3 piece or one piece, Scout or Air Camper. There is no such thing as a pure Piet (except for those Bernie built) and each one of those had its own unique characteristics. I'm happy to see new members on the list and hope to encourage them as a whole in all areas. I'm also thankful to the very experienced members who share their years of tinkering and wisdom with us so we don't stumble off into a dangerous area. I'm not for radical changes to the plans by any stretch- Bernie definitely knew what he was doing. for what it was intended to do and its limitations you will be a happy (Air) Camper. MC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM -Reply
Date: Sep 03, 1997
At Brodhead this year I had a brief discussion with Orrin Hoopman. We talked about some of the differences between his plans, Don Pietenpols plans and the FGM plans. Mr Hoopmans statement to me was "Well, you go ahead and try different things, whatever works for you go ahead and do" After hearing that I felt a lot better about making MINOR deviations from the plans. Greg Cardinal >>> Steve Eldredge 09/03/97 12:58am >>> Dear all, I was wondering when this might come up, and because of its seeming sensitive nature I chosen not to say anything up to this point. But since some recent posts have indicated a Pietenpol Purist air (pun intended) --And since I run this list--I submit the following as the "official" statement on the subject. (despite the seeming opposing view of wonderful newsletter editors.) While I certainly respect the "Don't-change-anything-thing-the-Piet-is-perfect-as-it-is" point of view, imposing it on other homebuilders of the fine design is a little irritating. Pietenpol himself was an innovator and I feel would be among the first to encourage a certain amount of innovation by builders. A buddy of mine is about to fly the first Subaru powered Piet I have seen, and when the old timers come around the hanger and ask where the model A is, his response is that "Bernie would be flying behind a subaru if he would have had one" I think that there is more than a degree of likelihood in this statement. With regard to airframe modifications: There is no commandment that you have to follow them. Not even Howard Henderson has a perfect "to-the-plans-piet" anyone who uses braided cable for drag/anti-drag wires or aluminum instead of "tern plate" has made modifications to the plans. Others have added a wing or used cub parts, or changed the airfoil--and still call it a Pietenpol. Granted it really isn't an Air Camper anymore, but it is still someone's vision of what they want in airplane. Changes to the plans are ok so long as you know what you are doing, which brings me to the point of this post. I believe that a zealous rush to defend the design as it sits on paper is the type of response that has a tendency to stifle open discussion and acts to discourage people from asking questions. I suggest that folks not rush so quickly to the "don't change anything response" when others ask sincere honest questions. After all if we really wanted to pick a nit, none of us have a true Pietenpol unless we bought one built by Bernard himself. Respectfully Steve e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Forward CG limit?\
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Steve, That's a great weight. Mine is 635. I was to a fly-in at Jersey Shore Pa last weekend there was a C-65 Piet there that weighed 740. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Right on, and well said! > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM > Date: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 2:58 AM > > Dear all, > > I was wondering when this might come up, and because of its seeming > sensitive nature I chosen not to say anything up to this point. But > since some recent posts have indicated a Pietenpol Purist air (pun > intended) --And since I run this list--I submit the following as the > "official" statement on the subject. (despite the seeming opposing view > of wonderful newsletter editors.) > > > While I certainly respect the > "Don't-change-anything-thing-the-Piet-is-perfect-as-it-is" point of > view, imposing it on other homebuilders of the fine design is a little > irritating. Pietenpol himself was an innovator and I feel would be among > the first > to encourage a certain amount of innovation by builders. A buddy of > mine is about to fly the first Subaru powered Piet I have seen, and when > the old timers come around the hanger and ask where the model A is, his > response is that "Bernie would be flying behind a subaru if he would > have had one" I think that there is more than a degree of likelihood in > this statement. With regard to airframe modifications: There is no > commandment that you have to follow them. Not even Howard Henderson has > a perfect "to-the-plans-piet" anyone who uses braided cable for > drag/anti-drag wires or aluminum instead of "tern plate" has made > modifications to the plans. Others have added a wing or used cub parts, > or changed the airfoil--and still call it a Pietenpol. Granted it > really isn't an Air Camper anymore, but it is still someone's vision of > what they want in airplane. Changes to the plans are ok so long as you > know what you are doing, which brings me to the point of this post. > > I believe that a zealous rush to defend the design as it sits on paper > is the type of response that has a tendency to stifle open discussion > and acts to discourage people from asking questions. I suggest that > folks not rush so quickly to the "don't change > anything response" when others ask sincere honest questions. > > After all if we really wanted to pick a nit, none of us have a true > Pietenpol unless we bought one built by Bernard himself. > > Respectfully > Steve e. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Forward CG limit?\
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Steve, can you keep me posted as to how you go about adjusting the wing, and by how much? I sure envy you being that close to completion! > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Forward CG limit?\ > Date: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 19:04 PM > > Well I have to say that I'm a little stoked today. Yesterday I put the > wings on and fired up the engine, took lots of pictures and did my > weight and balance. > > All up empty weight: 588.5 lbs! > > I am just a little aft (.5 inches) of the 20 inch cg limit. I will fix > that with a wing move and hopefully loosing a little weight. (my wife is > excited that there is added incentive for me---) > > Next task is filling out all the paperwork to get the FAA to make the > trip. > > More photo's soon. > > BTW What is the story with the up ended piet on grants page? > > another BTW Mike C's got some good picts too! > > Keep building! > > Steve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Dear all, > > I was wondering when this might come up, and because of its seeming > sensitive nature I chosen not to say anything up to this point. But > since some recent posts have indicated a Pietenpol Purist air (pun > intended) --And since I run this list--I submit the following as the > "official" statement on the subject. (despite the seeming opposing view > of wonderful newsletter editors.) > > While I certainly respect the > "Don't-change-anything-thing-the-Piet-is-perfect-as-it-is" point of > view, imposing it on other homebuilders of the fine design is a little > irritating. Pietenpol himself was an innovator and I feel would be among > the first > to encourage a certain amount of innovation by builders. A buddy of > mine is about to fly the first Subaru powered Piet I have seen, and when > the old timers come around the hanger and ask where the model A is, his > response is that "Bernie would be flying behind a subaru if he would > have had one" I think that there is more than a degree of likelihood in > this statement. With regard to airframe modifications: There is no > commandment that you have to follow them. Not even Howard Henderson has > a perfect "to-the-plans-piet" anyone who uses braided cable for > drag/anti-drag wires or aluminum instead of "tern plate" has made > modifications to the plans. Others have added a wing or used cub parts, > or changed the airfoil--and still call it a Pietenpol. Granted it > really isn't an Air Camper anymore, but it is still someone's vision of > what they want in airplane. Changes to the plans are ok so long as you > know what you are doing, which brings me to the point of this post. > > I believe that a zealous rush to defend the design as it sits on paper > is the type of response that has a tendency to stifle open discussion > and acts to discourage people from asking questions. I suggest that > folks not rush so quickly to the "don't change > anything response" when others ask sincere honest questions. > > After all if we really wanted to pick a nit, none of us have a true > Pietenpol unless we bought one built by Bernard himself. > > Respectfully > Steve e. Steve E. Very well said. Some folks are leaders and inovators, others are followers for lack of skills, knowledge, abilities, or the desire or moxey to step out of the crowd. B . Pietenpol was a leader and inovator as is folks like Jim Bede, Burt Rutan and many others, being a leader or follower are both commendable as both are producers of things we have loved from the past and things that propel us into the future and that brings me to a question?? Did you see the Wainfans Facitmobile at Oshkosh? I did not make it this year but seen an article in the October issue of kit planes on it but no real information on performance ect and too many bodies around the bird to see much of it in the photos but it certainly looked interesting and as I understand it , it is an ultralight . Did any one see this ship fly? Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Every single Pietenpol I have ever looked at is different in some way. I think the key is that we respect each others opinions. It is interesting to speculate about what changes Bernard might make if he were building today? Bob Bailey Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Dear all, > > I was wondering when this might come up, and because of its seeming > sensitive nature I chosen not to say anything up to this point. But > since some recent posts have indicated a Pietenpol Purist air (pun > intended) --And since I run this list--I submit the following as the > "official" statement on the subject. (despite the seeming opposing view > of wonderful newsletter editors.) > > While I certainly respect the > "Don't-change-anything-thing-the-Piet-is-perfect-as-it-is" point of > view, imposing it on other homebuilders of the fine design is a little > irritating. Pietenpol himself was an innovator and I feel would be among > the first > to encourage a certain amount of innovation by builders. A buddy of > mine is about to fly the first Subaru powered Piet I have seen, and when > the old timers come around the hanger and ask where the model A is, his > response is that "Bernie would be flying behind a subaru if he would > have had one" I think that there is more than a degree of likelihood in > this statement. With regard to airframe modifications: There is no > commandment that you have to follow them. Not even Howard Henderson has > a perfect "to-the-plans-piet" anyone who uses braided cable for > drag/anti-drag wires or aluminum instead of "tern plate" has made > modifications to the plans. Others have added a wing or used cub parts, > or changed the airfoil--and still call it a Pietenpol. Granted it > really isn't an Air Camper anymore, but it is still someone's vision of > what they want in airplane. Changes to the plans are ok so long as you > know what you are doing, which brings me to the point of this post. > > I believe that a zealous rush to defend the design as it sits on paper > is the type of response that has a tendency to stifle open discussion > and acts to discourage people from asking questions. I suggest that > folks not rush so quickly to the "don't change > anything response" when others ask sincere honest questions. > > After all if we really wanted to pick a nit, none of us have a true > Pietenpol unless we bought one built by Bernard himself. > > Respectfully > Steve e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Forward CG limit?\ -Reply
Date: Sep 03, 1997
Hi Group, I've been a member for some time but usually spend my time reading the comments of others. I particularly enjoyed Steve's comments about design changes. I'm rebuilding a wrecked Piet--new landing gear, fabric repair, resplicing wing spars/covering the wing, remounting a Ford Escort engine, getting the engine to run well, designing a cowl, etc. The orginal builder used piano hinges on the ailerons which provide a gap seal at the same time. At Broadhead I didn't see anyone using this arrangement. Does anyone have a comment about any particular hazards??? I looked in vain for someone else who might be using an Escort engine. Yes, I'm aware of Ed's conversion in Canada and have his manual but I'd like to talk to someone who is flying one or currently working on the conversion. I live in Rexburg, Idaho, and would like to visit some other Piet builders. I'd also be glad to share my plane with anyone who 'd like to stop by. I'm approaching retirement--2 more years--and earned an A&P two years ago for use in a future hobby business. I fly a C-120 at the present time. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net>
Subject: Re: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 03, 1997
ernest l. hagness wrote: >Did you see the Wainfans Facitmobile at > Oshkosh? I did not make it this year but seen an article in the October > issue of kit planes on it but no real information on performance ect > and too many bodies around the bird to see much of it in the photos but it certainly looked interesting and as I understand it , it is an > ultralight . Did any one see this ship fly? Ernie. The Facetmobile was at Oshkosh 1 or 2 years ago and flew before the afternoon airshows several times (very high angle of attack - which prompted the installation of a plexi panel in the floor for forward visibility). Rotax powered and probably close to the ultralight category, it was displayed in the homebuilt area and never was in the ultralight area so probably was an experimental registartion. Seems I read somewhere that the plane subsequently crashed on takeoff a year ago or so, by hitting a fence (minor personal damage - major structural damage), and will not be rebuilt. Other design innovations are being explored. Hope this helps. Larry * E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Div. * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Forward CG limit?\
Date: Sep 03, 1997
> > Steve, > > That's a great weight. Mine is 635. I was to a fly-in at Jersey Shore Pa > last weekend there was a C-65 Piet there that weighed 740. > > Craig > I just had a ride in Brian Kenny's Piet on Saturday and it was about 580lbs with an A65. And that's with the wooden gear with big motorcycle wheels. He said he saved a lot of weight using round tube for the lift struts (minimal difference in cruise speed). The airplane had little trouble lifting the two of us at close to 400lbs. I was really impressed that such a low powered airplane with not particularly large wings (a Cub has 6 ft more span) can pretty well haul its own weight. Must be something to that cambered airfoil. I'm a believer now. A delight to fly, and it thermals quite nicely (I instruct in gliders). No need to wind up the engine to climb; just find some lift and start circling at 55 mph. John Kahn Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Forward CG limit?\
Date: Sep 04, 1997
Ian, I tipped my wing back 3 1/2" and ended up with 17" back from the leading edge CG. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: CG question
Date: Sep 04, 1997
Craig, (and others) In addition to moving the wing back did you have to add any weight in the nose of the A/C. Moving my wing back to 3.75 inches from perpendicualar puts my cg right at 20 inches from the le of the wing. I weigh 210lbs. Putting full fuel in brings it to 18 inches. According to the buckeye page cg article loaded cg's extend back as far as 22 inches. Think I should move the wing back further? Or add some weight in the engine compartment. thoughts? Stevee. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: CG question
Date: Sep 04, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Craig, (and others) > > In addition to moving the wing back did you have to add any weight in > the nose of the A/C. Moving my wing back to 3.75 inches from > perpendicualar puts my cg right at 20 inches from the le of the wing. I > weigh 210lbs. Putting full fuel in brings it to 18 inches. According > to the buckeye page cg article loaded cg's extend back as far as 22 > inches. Think I should move the wing back further? Or add some weight > in the engine compartment. > > thoughts? > > Stevee. Steve: What does the c.g. look like at half empty tank weight and 3/4 empty? It has always been preferable when possible not to add weight to bring things into "square"... Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Purist Pietenpol RFPRM
Date: Sep 04, 1997
Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote: > > ernest l. hagness wrote: > >Did you see the Wainfans Facitmobile at > > Oshkosh? I did not make it this year but seen an article in the October > > issue of kit planes on it but no real information on performance ect > > and too many bodies around the bird to see much of it in the photos but it certainly looked interesting and as I understand it , it is an > > ultralight . Did any one see this ship fly? Ernie. > > The Facetmobile was at Oshkosh 1 or 2 years ago and flew before the > afternoon airshows several times (very high angle of attack - which > prompted the installation of a plexi panel in the floor for forward > visibility). Rotax powered and probably close to the ultralight > category, it was displayed in the homebuilt area and never was in the > ultralight area so probably was an experimental registartion. Seems I > read somewhere that the plane subsequently crashed on takeoff a year ago > or so, by hitting a fence (minor personal damage - major structural > damage), and will not be rebuilt. Other design innovations are being > explored. > > Hope this helps. > > Larry > * E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Div. * Thanks for your input.The facitmobile may be a little too experimental for an old gaffer like me, but am always interested in research. Will be ni milwaukee and greenbay on 9-18 for 2 weeks visiting old friends and relatives. Am looking forward to some weather that is under 100 dfh as has been the case in south texas this summer. Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: POWRACER(at)aol.com
Subject: Introduction
Date: Sep 05, 1997
My name is Mike List and I am a new member of the Buckeye Pietenpol Association. Steve kindly added me to the chat group and showed me his project last month on a trip to Salt Lake City. Just starting on our Pietenpol and waiting on the first batch of spruce to arrive. Our ship is to be Corvair powered with wire-spoke wheels. This will be a family project with the wife and two young daughters eager to help. A bit of background: private pilot with time in Aeronca L-3, Cessna's, Piper's, ultralight and experimentals, design engineer for Lockheed Skunk Works, kayak builder, EAA Chapter 49 member, WWI aviation enthusiast and open cockpit lover. Agree with Steve that the Pietenpol is a wonderful ship that lends itself to customizing provided the basic structure is not compromised. Stay away from wood lift struts and do add the jury struts. Lots of fun and the wife (or husband) knows where you are. Saw Ernie is interested in the Facetmobile by Barnaby Wanifan. The October 1984 issue of EAA's Sport Aviation magazine has an excellent article on it, provide me your snail mail address and I'll be glad to send you a copy. Also, there is a Facetmobile homepage at http://users.aol.com/slicklynne/wanifan.htm (or just search "Facetmobile" or "Wanifan"). Regarding the biplane Aerial version of the Piet someone inquired about: I was also interested in the biplane and got the conversion plans. Have heard different versions of how it flew, with the original builder admitting that it tended to hunt nose up and down in flight. A bit of a stability problem created by the additional wing with no stagger that would require a bit of modification to the design, but not as much as one source has indicated such as negative stagger and lots of nose ballast. If the ship had been that far out of the stability envelope it should have been unable to recover the first time it was stalled. I didn't want to get into that much development effort so stayed with the original Piet configuration. Look forward to high-tech chatting on a 1929 design. The Piet does, after all, have a fly-by-wire control system! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Piet/Grega
Date: Sep 05, 1997
To the group: Just some ramblings. Feel free to comment/critisize. Some of you may have pondered the Grega vs Piet debate and may get an insight or see something I missed. I'm starting to understand how needlessly overdone the Grega modifications are after comparing the Piet and Grega cabane fittings and having a chat with one of the aero engineers here. Most people, that see the Piet's tiny little strap cabane fittings, make remarks about how weak it looks. If you do some crude math, the picture is different. If for argument's sake you consider the loads to be shared equally between all eight cabane/lift strut fittings, and assuming a fuselage that weighs 900 lbs, the load on each cabane would be just over 100 lbs at 1'G'. There are two straps at each cabane, so reduce that to just over 50 lbs on each strap. Actually, with the lift struts at about mid span on the wing panel, almost all the lifting loads are transmitted through the lift struts, not the cabanes. (In fact, if there is more wing outboard of the lift strut than inboard, the load on the cabanes is actually in *compression*. We had a Twin Otter that had a wing root fitting fail completely and the airplane continued to fly with the wing held to the fuselage by the fairings!). So the Piet cabanes are loaded to far less than 50lbs, probably less than 20 lbs that could be tension or compression depending on the flight condition. Pull 5 gs and the load goes to 100 lbs. What's the limit tensile strength of a half inch strap of 4130 at the bolt holes? About 1000 lbs? The wing fittings would share most of the 900 lb load between them or about 200 lbs per fitting, which would be 1000 lbs at 5 Gs. What's the tensile strength of the 4130 strut fitting? 3 or 4 thousand lbs maybe? Same with the top fittings. The lift load on the wing root fittings is mostly a compression load trying to push the wing inboard against the center section, which is cancelled at the front fitting by the drag load trying to bend the wing aft. So the most highly stressed component at the center section is the inboard compression load on the _rear_ wingroot fitting. The top cabane fittings are doing as little work as the bottom ones. The drag struts would probably be loaded the most. Look at the engine mount also. If the Model A is roughly 250 lbs, there is half that or 125 lbs on the front end of the mount (since the other end is on the firewall) or 62lbs on each side. This load is split between the top and bottom mount fittings at the firewall. Even at 5Gs there is not much stress on the engine mount fittings; even allowing for moment arms and whatnot there would be no more than a few hundred pounds of shear load on each bottom mount bolt. This little excercise helped convince me what the oldtimers all say, that the stucture is adequate with mild steel and is actually much overdone when built using 4130. If you modify the fittings you are adding strength that you will never be able to use. So while there *are* some design features of the Grega that may be nice to have, (like the bigger ailerons), structurally speaking the extra beef in the Grega is just ballast. I'm sure all this is just preaching to the converted. Regards John Kahn Tech Pubs Canadair Regional Jet Bomabardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Piet/Grega
Date: Sep 05, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > > To the group: > > Just some ramblings. Feel free to comment/critisize. Some of you may have > pondered the Grega vs Piet debate and may get an insight or see something I > missed. > > I'm starting to understand how needlessly overdone the Grega modifications > are after comparing the Piet and Grega cabane fittings and having a chat > with one of the aero engineers here. Most people, that see the Piet's tiny > little strap cabane fittings, make remarks about how weak it looks. If you do > some crude math, the picture is different. If for argument's sake you consider > the loads to be shared equally between all eight cabane/lift strut fittings, > and assuming a fuselage that weighs 900 lbs, the load on each cabane would > be just over 100 lbs at 1'G'. There are two straps at each cabane, so reduce > that to just over 50 lbs on each strap. > > Actually, with the lift struts at about mid span on the wing panel, almost all > the lifting loads are transmitted through the lift struts, not the cabanes. (In > fact, if there is more wing outboard of the lift strut than inboard, the load > on the cabanes is actually in *compression*. We had a Twin Otter that had a > wing root fitting fail completely and the airplane continued to fly with > the wing held to the fuselage by the fairings!). > > So the Piet cabanes are loaded to far less than 50lbs, probably less than > 20 lbs that could be tension or compression depending on the flight > condition. Pull 5 gs and the load goes to 100 lbs. What's the limit tensile > strength of a half inch strap of 4130 at the bolt holes? About 1000 > lbs? > > The wing fittings would share most of the 900 lb load between them or about > 200 lbs per fitting, which would be 1000 lbs at 5 Gs. What's the tensile > strength of the 4130 strut fitting? 3 or 4 thousand lbs maybe? > > Same with the top fittings. The lift load on the wing root fittings is mostly a > compression load trying to push the wing inboard against the center section, > which is cancelled at the front fitting by the drag load trying to bend the > wing aft. So the most highly stressed component at the center section is > the inboard compression load on the _rear_ wingroot fitting. The top cabane > fittings are doing as little work as the bottom ones. The drag struts > would probably be loaded the most. > > Look at the engine mount also. If the Model A is roughly 250 lbs, there > is half that or 125 lbs on the front end of the mount (since the other end > is on the firewall) or 62lbs on each side. This load is split between the > top and bottom mount fittings at the firewall. Even at 5Gs there is not > much stress on the engine mount fittings; even allowing for moment arms and > whatnot there would be no more than a few hundred pounds of shear load > on each bottom mount bolt. > > This little excercise helped convince me what the oldtimers all say, that > the stucture is adequate with mild steel and is actually much overdone > when built using 4130. If you modify the fittings you are adding strength > that you will never be able to use. > > So while there *are* some design features of the Grega that may be nice to > have, (like the bigger ailerons), structurally speaking the extra beef in > the Grega is just ballast. > > I'm sure all this is just preaching to the converted. > > Regards > > John Kahn > > Tech Pubs > Canadair Regional Jet > Bomabardier Inc. John, Thanks for sharing this good data with us . It gives me much peace of mind knowing that my Grega is not going to break on me. I have never seen any solid engineering data on this so I am making a copy to include in my airframe log book. Thanks. Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Date: Sep 05, 1997
POWRACER(at)aol.com wrote: > > My name is Mike List and I am a new member of the Buckeye Pietenpol > Association. Steve kindly added me to the chat group and showed me his > project last month on a trip to Salt Lake City. Just starting on our > Pietenpol and waiting on the first batch of spruce to arrive. Our ship is to > be Corvair powered with wire-spoke wheels. This will be a family project > with the wife and two young daughters eager to help. > A bit of background: private pilot with time in Aeronca L-3, Cessna's, > Piper's, ultralight and experimentals, design engineer for Lockheed Skunk > Works, kayak builder, EAA Chapter 49 member, WWI aviation enthusiast and open > cockpit lover. > Agree with Steve that the Pietenpol is a wonderful ship that lends itself to > customizing provided the basic structure is not compromised. Stay away from > wood lift struts and do add the jury struts. Lots of fun and the wife (or > husband) knows where you are. > Saw Ernie is interested in the Facetmobile by Barnaby Wanifan. The October > 1984 issue of EAA's Sport Aviation magazine has an excellent article on it, > provide me your snail mail address and I'll be glad to send you a copy. > Also, there is a Facetmobile homepage at > http://users.aol.com/slicklynne/wanifan.htm (or just search "Facetmobile" or > "Wanifan"). > Regarding the biplane Aerial version of the Piet someone inquired about: I > was also interested in the biplane and got the conversion plans. Have heard > different versions of how it flew, with the original builder admitting that > it tended to hunt nose up and down in flight. A bit of a stability problem > created by the additional wing with no stagger that would require a bit of > modification to the design, but not as much as one source has indicated such > as negative stagger and lots of nose ballast. If the ship had been that far > out of the stability envelope it should have been unable to recover the first > time it was stalled. I didn't want to get into that much development effort > so stayed with the original Piet configuration. > Look forward to high-tech chatting on a 1929 design. The Piet does, after > all, have a fly-by-wire control system! Mike thanks for the info on the facitmobile. Will follow up on it Did not know it had been around that long. Ernie Hagness 2337 Willow Dr. Portland, Texas 78374 EAA23375 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Piet/Grega
Date: Sep 06, 1997
Hello all, Discussion of the Piet/Grega prompts a further question? I have never seen or heard anything mentioned about control surface flutter for either a/c. Is it because of the slow speed that this is just not a problem? Bob Bailey - Missouri ________________________________________________________________________________
From: POWRACER(at)aol.com
Subject: Facetmobile
Date: Sep 06, 1997
You are right, Ernie. My fingers fumbled and the article is in the October 1994 issue, not 1984 as mentioned. Will get you a copy in the mail. Regarding flutter. It can happen even at the slow speeds flown by ultralights. I'll take a look at them from a flutter point of view one day, but they must be right as is as I have never heard of a Piet with flutter problems. Any comments? Steve, good to hear that you had the wings on and the engine running again. Ought to make a great leaf blower this fall! The neighbors will be envious! Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Tail Spring
Date: Sep 06, 1997
Hello everyone,have enjoying al the discussion coming through daily. I'am still trying to locate a source for a tailwheel spring ,would like to hear of anyone that could point me in the right direction in this regard. Tnx Doug ....ve6zh(at)cnnet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Subject: Re: Tail Spring
Date: Sep 06, 1997
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Doug Hunt wrote: > Hello everyone,have enjoying al the discussion coming through daily. > I'am still trying to locate a source for a tailwheel spring ,would like to > hear of anyone that could point me in the right direction in this regard. > Tnx Doug ....ve6zh(at)cnnet.com > Hi Doug, I'm still hoping to find that John Deere part number for the tail spring. There is still a lot of stuff I have to go through within the next few weeks, and I know it has to be in there somewhere amongst my collection of junk. Will be moving to Camrose October 31st. and staying at a motel until our new place is ready (it is about three months behind schedule now). Will be off-line from late October until perhaps December, but will advise when this happens. If all else fails, I'll measure my spring and go to Martin Farm Equipment to find the part for you. I'm sure there others in the discussion group who would like to have a J.D. part number, also. Cheers, Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu
Subject: Re: Tail Spring
Date: Sep 08, 1997
PI>On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Doug Hunt wrote: PI>> Hello everyone,have enjoying al the discussion coming through daily. PI>> I'am still trying to locate a source for a tailwheel spring ,would like t PI>> hear of anyone that could point me in the right direction . ....ve6zh(at)cnnet.com Hi, Doug: I went looking through my old BPANews letters and found two good entries about springs for the tail wheel/skid. Issue #50, 1995, p. 5 and w/pic on p. 11: "Don Hicks (p.o.BOX 127, Hartford ,AL 36344) built this tailwheel assembly with plans from Yesterday's Wings. Coil spring is cut to The 7 " spring section measures 170-190lbs. fully compressed. Tubing from strut housing was used to provide upper and lower spring retainer sockets." Issue #53, 1996, p.13 has a letter from Bruce Heinninger, 10613 W. 98th Ter., Overland Park , KS. 66214: "John Deere sells a spring that's a perfect match for the specs; its part number is T 143444, and it costs about $9.00. Its outer dia. is 1.5 in.; full length ( no load ) is 6.73" ; the coil itself is .191" thick. I've tested its compresed load, and it almost gets totally compressed under my weight (c. 210 lbs.). I don't know what the spring is used for in a John Deere, but Ken Perkins tells me that the spring for a 1929 JD rake is a perfect match. Maybe "that's what it's for." Hope these pieces help you out. I've been in this chat group for about two weeks now and have enjoyed reading the stuff. I'm very new to computers and have never successfully sent an email by myself. Hope this works and this all wasn't a waste of time! John Fay memorized and can't ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Tail spring
Date: Sep 09, 1997
Thanks very much John,for the good info on the spring.I will check with the local J.D. dealer and see if the part number is still good.If not i will try and track down a bike spring .Thanks again ..Doug Ve6zh(at)cnnet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Spring
Date: Sep 09, 1997
Just checked with J.D. parts as they are open late for harvest time and the T143444 is still a good number and is $14.50 can. Thanks John. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: [Fwd: :-) (Funny) Forwarded: Computer Acronyms]
Date: Sep 09, 1997
thought all you piet/computer types might get a chuckle out of this one. stevee by EMAIL1.BYU.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #23832) id <01ING3MF8O68000QV8(at)yvax.byu.edu> for byucsr-expand(at)reprocess.yvax.byu.edu; by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23832) by ACS2.BYU.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #23834) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:29:02 -0600 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kim R. Sullivan" <kim_sullivan(at)byu.edu> (by way of Angela Rogers)
Subject: :-) (Funny) Forwarded: Computer Acronyms
Approved: akrogers(at)ymail.byu.edu [Moderator's Note: I thought you all might like a good chuckle. Thanks to Kim for sending this to me. :-) --AR]
Subject: Computer Acronyms
Understanding acronyms at a glance is a crucial skill in today's fast-paced, high-tech world! Thus this list: APPLE Arrogance Produces Profit-Losing Entity BASIC Bill's Attempt to Seize Industry Control CD-ROM Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete Monthly WWW World Wide Wait MACINTOSH Most Applications Crash; If Not, The Operating System Hangs PENTIUM Produces Erroneous Numbers Through Incorrect Understanding of Math COBOL Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language AMIGA A Merely Insignificant Game Addiction WINDOWS Will Install Needless Data On Whole System MICROSOFT Most Intelligent Customers Realize Our Software Only ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Piet/Grega
Date: Sep 10, 1997
John, thank you very much for the fitting (no pun intended) information. I was just going through the thought process, as I assemble the centre wing section, that the cabane fittings look very flimsy and should probably be reinforced. Your expanation puts some sense into the fact that these planes have been flying for so long without problems. When the centre section is hanging in place the first thought is WOW, those are really tiny fittings. It comes back to a repeated theme, build it as designed, its worked a long time. Thanks again, -=Ian=- > From: John Kahn <jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Piet/Grega > Date: Friday, September 05, 1997 16:15 PM > > To the group: > > Just some ramblings. Feel free to comment/critisize. Some of you may have > pondered the Grega vs Piet debate and may get an insight or see something I > missed. > > I'm starting to understand how needlessly overdone the Grega modifications > are after comparing the Piet and Grega cabane fittings and having a chat > with one of the aero engineers here. Most people, that see the Piet's tiny > little strap cabane fittings, make remarks about how weak it looks. If you do > some crude math, the picture is different. If for argument's sake you consider > the loads to be shared equally between all eight cabane/lift strut fittings, > and assuming a fuselage that weighs 900 lbs, the load on each cabane would > be just over 100 lbs at 1'G'. There are two straps at each cabane, so reduce > that to just over 50 lbs on each strap. > > Actually, with the lift struts at about mid span on the wing panel, almost all > the lifting loads are transmitted through the lift struts, not the cabanes. (In > fact, if there is more wing outboard of the lift strut than inboard, the load > on the cabanes is actually in *compression*. We had a Twin Otter that had a > wing root fitting fail completely and the airplane continued to fly with > the wing held to the fuselage by the fairings!). > > So the Piet cabanes are loaded to far less than 50lbs, probably less than > 20 lbs that could be tension or compression depending on the flight > condition. Pull 5 gs and the load goes to 100 lbs. What's the limit tensile > strength of a half inch strap of 4130 at the bolt holes? About 1000 > lbs? > > The wing fittings would share most of the 900 lb load between them or about > 200 lbs per fitting, which would be 1000 lbs at 5 Gs. What's the tensile > strength of the 4130 strut fitting? 3 or 4 thousand lbs maybe? > > Same with the top fittings. The lift load on the wing root fittings is mostly a > compression load trying to push the wing inboard against the center section, > which is cancelled at the front fitting by the drag load trying to bend the > wing aft. So the most highly stressed component at the center section is > the inboard compression load on the _rear_ wingroot fitting. The top cabane > fittings are doing as little work as the bottom ones. The drag struts > would probably be loaded the most. > > Look at the engine mount also. If the Model A is roughly 250 lbs, there > is half that or 125 lbs on the front end of the mount (since the other end > is on the firewall) or 62lbs on each side. This load is split between the > top and bottom mount fittings at the firewall. Even at 5Gs there is not > much stress on the engine mount fittings; even allowing for moment arms and > whatnot there would be no more than a few hundred pounds of shear load > on each bottom mount bolt. > > This little excercise helped convince me what the oldtimers all say, that > the stucture is adequate with mild steel and is actually much overdone > when built using 4130. If you modify the fittings you are adding strength > that you will never be able to use. > > So while there *are* some design features of the Grega that may be nice to > have, (like the bigger ailerons), structurally speaking the extra beef in > the Grega is just ballast. > > I'm sure all this is just preaching to the converted. > > Regards > > John Kahn > Tech Pubs > Canadair Regional Jet > Bomabardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: CG question
Date: Sep 10, 1997
Stevee, I did add an inch to my engine mount and I weigh about 160. I think the info from Grant's notebook disk says max 20 inches back. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: ANOTHER PIET FLIES!!!!
Date: Sep 11, 1997
Rock Solid First Flight! Congratulations to Duane Woolsey of Provo UT. on his successful first flight of his Subaru Powered Pietenpol Air Camper. The deed was done last night at Spanish Fork airport with Gordon Nichol at the controls. The flight lasted about 20 minutes. Control feel was solid and comfortable. During a fast taxi Gordon lifted the tail, the piet tracked straight. As speed built the controls felt good and before he knew it the aircraft was airborn, just lifting off the runway. Ground effect flight was good and with a little back pressure the piet was headed skyward. Full power was not used and rpms were limited to 4200rpm. Even so the little craft was doing and estimated 700fpm. This thing is reall going to be a climber! Stall came at about an estimated 35mph. Approach to landing was fast. The airplane was flown into ground effect to find the correct touchdown speed and attitude. Twice during flare attempts at what was thought to be a slow enough speed the plane still wanted to fly, finally agian at about 35mph the wing gave in and a nice gentle three point landing was made. Again during roll out the Piet exhibited no wandering tendencies and foot work was minimal. Gordon says that he has never flown a taildragger easier to handle. His last comment was "I'm evious already" Man do I ever want to finish! I have to final rig the wing and just a few other small details. I put up some pictures as soon as I can get the digital camera out to capture some images. Get/Keep Building guys, it's going to be worth it! Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: ANOTHER PIET FLIES!!!!
Date: Sep 11, 1997
Congratulations to Duane !!!! It gives us all a shot in the arm to keep at it. Like Frank Pavliga told me 4 years ago...'the sooner you start building the sooner you get to fly it.' Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: ANOTHER PIET FLIES!!!!
Date: Sep 12, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Rock Solid First Flight! > > Congratulations to Duane Woolsey of Provo UT. on his successful first > flight of his Subaru Powered Pietenpol Air Camper. > Congratulations Duane! Maybe we will see the new plane at Brodhead next year?? :) Bob B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: djscott(at)heartland.bradley.edu (David Scott)
Subject: Re: Piet/Grega
Date: Sep 12, 1997
Being a mechanical engineer myself, and I am very new at looking into the piet, I find your note on the cabane fittings rather heartwarming. I have been helping some with the building starts efforts of John Fay, who has had his plans for eons, and am looking at starting one myself. Two built together may take longer with all the side conversations, but enjoyable build is enjoyable building time anyway. The plans have no mention of a particular strength or type of steel for any of the fittings, which I also have done quick, not as in depth as your discussion, head calculations and concluded then the same resulting answer -- mild A36 steel will suffice and not have all the hum-drum expense of 4130. I wonder if anyone has done the next discussion. If the fittings are at this strength, is the real weak leak not in the fitting at all? The mounting at the fusulage (wood) may be such the place. Do you know if anyone has made such analysis efforts? I believe some discussion on this might prove useful. David Scott 102 Avalon Dr Washington,IL 61571-2902 djscott(at)heartland.bradley.edu -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: POWRACER(at)aol.com
Subject: First Flight
Date: Sep 12, 1997
Congratulations to Duane! They will be having fun in Provo now! Steve, I will be back in Salt Lake City all next week, so I'll make myself available evenings if you want some more help finishing yours. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Spars
Date: Sep 12, 1997
We just received our spars this week from Beartooth Lumber in Washington. Price was good and we got them a couple of weeks after ordering them. They wouldn't sell a 1x4 3/4 plank so we ordered 1x6 thinking we could use the extra inch for the longerons. What we didn't know and Beartooth didn't tell us was the material is milled to "finished" dimensions. When the planks arrived they were only 13/16" thick! We decided to keep them and use the excess from the 6 inch dimension to build up the caps to a full inch. Longerons will have to be scarfed together from some shorter material we have. As for the quality, on a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give them about a 7. A couple of minor surface blemishes but overall pretty good. At least one plank has absolutely 0 grain runout for the entire 16 foot length. Cost was $ 7.50 per linear foot and shipping, by air, from Washington to Minneapolis was $ 100.00 Greg Cardinal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Spars
Date: Sep 12, 1997
Have you inspected the boards for compression failures, Greg? I'm assuming it's uncertified wood. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Piet/Grega
Date: Sep 12, 1997
> Being a mechanical engineer myself, and I am very new at looking > into the piet, I find your note on the cabane fittings rather > heartwarming. I have been helping some with the building starts > efforts of John Fay, who has had his plans for eons, and am looking > at starting one myself. Two built together may take longer with > all the side conversations, but enjoyable build is enjoyable building time anyway. > > The plans have no mention of a particular strength or type of > steel for any of the fittings, which I also have done quick, not > as in depth as your discussion, head calculations and concluded > then the same resulting answer -- mild A36 steel will suffice and > not have all the hum-drum expense of 4130. > > I wonder if anyone has done the next discussion. If the fittings > are at this strength, is the real weak leak not in the fitting at all? > The mounting at the fusulage (wood) may be such the place. Do > you know if anyone has made such analysis efforts? I believe > some discussion on this might prove useful. > > David Scott > 102 Avalon Dr > Washington,IL 61571-2902 I would use 4130 anyway since there just isn't that much steel and the 50% additional tensile strength is there with no weight penalty. I think there is only a couple hundred dollars of steel in the fittings if that. By the way, there is a huge cost saving by using round lift struts instead of streamline tube, about 1/3 of the cost. There is minimal effect on cruise speed, only a couple of knots, and you can fair them anyway. I would make the nonstructural brackets like pulley fittings from aluminum. The plans show a steel strap that connects the strut fittings together along the bottom of the fuselage, which is supplemented by the hardwood crossmember. I guess one could almost think of the fuselage as resting in a pair of steel slings formed by the lift struts and carrythrough straps. Possibly the only really highly stessed bolt-to-wood joints are the lift strut to spar fittings and maybe the engine mounts when you add thrust and gyro loads to the loads from weight. And the landing gear depending on how smooth the pilot is! There is mention in the mailbag articles on the website of a fellow that did a stress analysis on the airframe and concluded the only critical item that must be added is jury struts to raise the negative G limit above the 1.5g compression strength calculated for no-jury-strut lift struts. It would be nice to have a summary from the stress analysis that gives the calculated maximum load on a given fitting and the tensile strength of the fitting as made from the plans. That would probably stop most people from adding meat to the fittings. I like the way the design, in its old fashionedness, distributes loads through mulitple paths. eg. I think a lot of people are concerned by having only two drag bays in the wing, until it's pointed out that the drift wires for the lift struts share those loads and also relieve the cabanes of much of the job of keeping the fuselage perpendicular to the wing. You cetainly wouldn't want to use a vee strut arrangment without redesigning the whole wing and cabane arrangement. The one item I think needs to be modified came from the Piet forum at Oshkosh a couple of years ago, where there was discussion of a crash where the cabane drag struts collapsed and let the wing come down on the pax's head. I think the drag struts should be quite beefy to resist collapsing in compression in a crash. I see a lot of Piets with really skinny drag struts. I will make them from the same tube as the cabane lift struts. jk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Spars -Reply
Date: Sep 15, 1997
It is uncertified. We looked it over closely and didn't find any defects that would make it unusable for spars. On an unrelated topic, last Friday we went searching for motorcycle rims at the local boneyard. Our hubs are built to Howard Henderson's plans with 40 spoke holes. At the junkyard, 40 hole rims were very rare. After searching for two hours in a mosquito infested back lot we finally found a pair of matching 19", 40 hole, alloy rims. My advice to anyone building their own hubs would be to drill them for 36 spokes. That is a MUCH more common rim. Greg Cardinal >>> John Kahn 09/12/97 12:18pm >>> Have you inspected the boards for compression failures, Greg? I'm assuming it's uncertified wood. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Spars -Reply
Date: Sep 15, 1997
It is uncertified. We looked it over closely and didn't find any defects that would make it unusable for spars. On an unrelated topic, last Friday we went searching for motorcycle rims at the local boneyard. Our hubs are built to Howard Henderson's plans with 40 spoke holes. At the junkyard, 40 hole rims were very rare. After searching for two hours in a mosquito infested back lot we finally found a pair of matching 19", 40 hole, alloy rims. My advice to anyone building their own hubs would be to drill them for 36 spokes. That is a MUCH more common rim. Greg Cardinal >>> John Kahn 09/12/97 12:18pm >>> Have you inspected the boards for compression failures, Greg? I'm assuming it's uncertified wood. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Subject: Re: Winter Flying
Date: Sep 27, 1997
Hi Richard, I have been flying my Pietenpol since November 15, 1970. The first flights were on skis from a snow-covered field and the temperature was about 25 to 30 degrees F. Cool, but tolerable. Since then I have flown it nearly 700 hours and have, on several occas- ions, flown it in each of the twelve months of the year. It is a great little skiplane, but the "heater" leaves a lot to be desired! Nowadays, I only fly it when the temperature gets above freezing--but when I was a bit younger (dumber, also), I flew it at much lower temperatures. Since few people want a ride at these temperatures, I cover the front cockpit which really helps eliminate the drafts around one's feet. I'm sure that it doesn't get any colder in Maine than it does here in the Edmonton, Alberta, Canada area--so if you are younger than I am it shouldn't be too bad. Do try it as a skiplane; the light weight and good lift at low speeds is a real advantage over heavier, faster types. (And I understand you get lots of snow, too.) While I never did anything about it, a neat side-hinged bubble canopy for the rear cockpit together with the covered front pit would make it comfortable--particularly if a cabin heater were installed. Has anyone out there tried this? Perhaps I'll get around to doing something one of these days--but then I've been saying this for years.... Cheers to all from the frozen north (I hope El Nino moderates the on- coming winter more than somewhat so that I can do more winter flying). Graham Hansen On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Richard DeCosta wrote: > Anyone on the list fly their Piets on winter? I am contemplating > building one, but I live in Maine, where the winters are > looooooooooooong and cold. Even though its a beautiful plane, I may > be forced to build one with an enclosed cockpit, unless enough people > rave about their Piets telling me it'd be worth the "hangared" > months. :) > > Richard > > Web Developer, www.autoeurope.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HPVSUPPLY(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Flybaby/Piet stuff
Date: Sep 27, 1997
Hi! What sort of stuff are you looking for? I might have some stuff that will help you out. Mike Conkling Pretty Prairie, KS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: laur-mac(at)ArkansasUSA.com (LAUR-MAC, INC.)
Subject: leave
Date: Sep 27, 1997
Leave > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Begging your further indulgence...
Date: Sep 28, 1997
Richard, There is a Ford powered Piet flying at Reinbeck Aerodrome. At least there used to be. The owner's name was Carl. I'd give them a call if your interested in traveling there. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Begging your further indulgence...
Date: Sep 29, 1997
Craig Lawler is correct. Karl Erikson has a Piet at Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome. He deemed it un-airworthy a few years back and now has placed it in the museum on the field. The BPAN had an article on this plane flying on ski's a few years ago also. Grant MacLaren could copy you or send you a back issue for the correct money. Karl is a great guy. He gets to fly the 1909 Bleriot monoplane up there on weekends for the airshows. They only fly it about 5-10 ft. off the ground up and down the runway. He's the only guy on the field light enough for the plane to lift him. It uses a 3 cyl. Anzani radial engine which usually is only firing on about one or two cyls at any time !!!! Rhinebeck is a great trip. They have their info on a page on the Internet. I think mid-Oct. is their last show. MC >Richard, > >There is a Ford powered Piet flying at Reinbeck Aerodrome. At least >there used to be. The owner's name was Carl. I'd give them a call if >your interested in traveling there. > >Craig > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Fw:Wings
Date: Sep 29, 1997
Why have I read that you are better off not changing the plane and sticking with the plans with regard to the wing? Someone wrote that if they were going to do it over they would have built a one piece instead of the three piece. Why might that be? Is the one piece wing permanently fixed when installed or can it possible be removed for transporting? If it is fixed is it difficult to get it down the road if need be? Thanks, Brent Reed Kent, WA. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Fw:Wings
Date: Sep 30, 1997
> Why have I read that you are better off not changing the plane and > sticking with the plans with regard to the wing? Someone wrote that if > they were going to do it over they would have built a one piece instead > of the three piece. Why might that be? Is the one piece wing > permanently fixed when installed or can it possible be removed for > transporting? If it is fixed is it difficult to get it down the road if > need be? There is a picture in the Flying and Glider manual of a Piet built in the 30s with a _two_ piece wing, which would seem to be the most efficient compromise between weight saving and ease of dissasembly. It uses A frame cabanes with one joint at the middle. If you were putting the fuel tank in the fuselage it would be little trouble. I suspect the reason it isn't done more is that it changes the look of the airplane quite a lot and I don't think there are any plans for that type of modification. johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Fw:Wings
Date: Sep 30, 1997
John, The reason I said I would have built a one piece wing is that it would have been lighter and I have the space to build one. We also have a car trailer that would haul one too, but I doubt that I will ever remove the wing from the aircraft because it is really a pain. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: D Slade <dslade(at)ezonline.com>
Subject: RE: Wings
Date: Sep 30, 1997
________________________________________________________________________________
From: perry
Subject: New member
Date: Sep 29, 1997
Hi, my name is Perry Morrison. I'm a management consultant/psych based in Darwin Australia. I fly ultralights here and own a Sorrell Hyperlite biplane. I'd like advice on the advisability of modifying the Piet in these ways: 1. Welded chromoly or similar structure. 2. Stengthening to basic aerobatic capabilities ie +6 and -4 Gs. 3. Putting a more powerful motor in (eg Subaru EA-81). I'm looking to build a cheap, 2 seat, simple a/c with very basic aerobatic capabilities ie slow rolls, loops, barrel rolls. Also, what are the characteristics of the present airfoil. A note on the BPA page suggests unpleasant stall characteristics. I realise that purists would suggest I am trying to turn the Piet to something it wasn't intended for. Dr. Perry Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Sep 30, 1997
Hello Perry, My Pietenpol, before it was mine, was flown by someone who said it did great loops and rolls. It is per plans except for heavy wall struts, with one piece wing and no jury struts. These sorts of manuvers can be done smoothly such that they stress the airframe very little. A number of people here in the states do mild aerobatics in unmodified Cubs and the like. Note that these are just my observations. I am not a mechanical engineer. I recommend that you check things out fully before you try anything! On the engine: mine has a 90 Hp Franklin aircraft engine (4 cylinder opposed). Performance is VERY good. :) I know of one person who was putting in a 125 Hp Lycoming GPU. And he added flaps. Guess he really wanted a helicopter! ;) I lost track of him before I heard how it flew. Jim Skinner >Hi, > >my name is Perry Morrison. I'm a management consultant/psych based in >Darwin >Australia. I fly ultralights here and own a Sorrell Hyperlite biplane. I'd >like advice on the advisability of modifying the Piet in these ways: > > >1. Welded chromoly or similar structure. >2. Stengthening to basic aerobatic capabilities ie +6 and -4 Gs. >3. Putting a more powerful motor in (eg Subaru EA-81). > >I'm looking to build a cheap, 2 seat, simple a/c with very basic aerobatic >capabilities ie slow rolls, loops, barrel rolls. > >Also, what are the characteristics of the present airfoil. A note on the >BPA >page suggests unpleasant stall characteristics. > >I realise that purists would suggest I am trying to turn the Piet to >something >it wasn't intended for. > >Dr. Perry Morrison > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Oct 01, 1997
>1. Welded chromoly or similar structure. If you have the money, there is nothing wrong with doing this. >2. Stengthening to basic aerobatic capabilities ie +6 and -4 Gs. I would really discourage you from doing this. Unless you are capable of doing a complete structural analysis and redesigning the plane from the ground up. This plane was not designed for this kind of stress and a half-hearted attempt to modify it will probably be deadly. >3. Putting a more powerful motor in (eg Subaru EA-81). I think the this is probably the same as number 2 above. > I am not a purist. But I think that there are better choices out there for a low cost aerobatic platform. That was never the intent of the Piet. Good Luck Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Having had a ride in one lately, I can tell you the Piet's adequate but somewhat leisurely roll rate would rule it out for aerobatics before you even get into structural considerations. Forget about it. The best airplane in my opinion for cheap aerobatics is a Sonerai II. Steel tube, metal wings, stressed for about 9G. Rolls about 180deg/second. Put a Jabiru in it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Among other things, someone asked for: > 1. Welded chromoly or similar structure. Note that Bernie himself designed a steel-tube version of the Piet fuselage. It was analyzed by a structural engineer and declared to be more than strong enough, even in mild steel. No reason not to build it from 4130, though. You can find the plan in the Flying & Glider Manual. I think it was the 1932 issue. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Some new pics on my web page
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Check out http://steve.byu.edu Almost Done ! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: BPA Newsletter
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Anyone know when we are supposed to recieve the next news letter? Seems like it has been a long time. Steve e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Fuel Tank
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Whilst daydreaming the other day about build a Piet, a question poped into my head about the Air Camper. Did Mr. Pietenpol make any provisions for checking to see if there is any water in the fuel tank, and if so, draining it? Perhaps this is a feature planes didn't have till long after his time. Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Antennas
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Michael D Cuy wrote: > > I don't intend on using any radios flying my Piet, but maybe on a long > cross-country to land at a controlled field. Before the fabric goes on > the fuselage I'd like to string a coaxial cable and tie-wrap it. > Anybody out there know if that's enough, or would you need to > buy an external antenna and mount that on the belly also ?? > > Thanks, Mike C. Clev. OH Mike , I spent a couple hours at the airport in cleveland yesterday on my way back to corpus christi from milwaukee and green bay. Continental a/l has a way of sending you in the wrong direction for a couple of hours prior to getting you on the right heading. Solid cloud deck over the lake and not much better over cleveland. Back to your antenna question , I have an icom a 22 that I use in my A/C as well as an elt. I mounteed the antenna for the elt near the leading edge of the left wing and the one for the a22 near the trailing edge of the right wing , both being mounted on the aluminum wing to root fairingand the coax dreessed down through the vertical struts withe the elt going under the rear seat and the com to the right side as that iss the area I hang the a22 in and tie it to the flightcom and head sets with a push to talk on the rear stick . Seems to work OK for me . Also have them all tied into a rechargeable battery pack along with my lowrance gps . Dont like to use all of those throwaways. I have a continental a-80 so I have plenty of power for the little extra weight and I dont care about speed but I like to have the systems aboard when I need them. Ernie. Also a foot note to anyone interested Quote: from EAA oshkosh 97 bulletin board; ForSale' Pietenpol engine installation,Ford Pinto 2000 CC 86 HP 8 hours break in time ,custom aircraft prop drive 74x56 maple prop,engine mounts and radiator, firewwall forward, ready to go, $950.00 shipping extra . Call217-735-3280, 5 to 8 PM.Lincoln, Il. End of quote. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: A-65 prop options for a piet.
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Howdy Piet People. I have been flying my A-65 powered Piet for a few hours with a Hagy 70*40 wood prop. Although the numbers indicate that it should be a climb prop it is very much a cruise prop! I really need more climb for those hot Texas days on our short tree infested runways (its 93 degrees outside!) My number look like this: Takeoff 1900 - 2000 rpm 80 mph 2100 rpm 93 mph 2250 rpm (maxed out) I have seen the other wood props at about 72*42 and wonder what the performance is like. I would like to hear what other A-65 Piet owners are getting out of their props either wood or metal. Wood is a better choice for me as the metal props are $$$. Also interested in any props for sale. If metal only interested in yellow tagable units that can be overhauled by a certificated shop. Thanx a bunch for any pireps! Kevin McDonald Austin, TX. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Richard, The lowest point in the fuel system should be the gascolator sump drain. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R. Lawler" <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: A-65 prop options for a piet.
Date: Oct 01, 1997
Kevin, I was running a 72-43 Colver wooden prop and getting about 2,000 on takeoff. I got them to take a inch of pitch out and am getting about 2150 now. My speed is not as high as yours. At full power I'm only getting about 80. 1900 works out to about 65 or 70mph. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: perry
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Sep 30, 1997
Hi John and others! > Having had a ride in one lately, I can tell you the Piet's adequate but > somewhat leisurely roll rate would rule it out for aerobatics before you > even get into structural considerations. Forget about it. Worth knowing! > > The best airplane in my opinion for cheap aerobatics is a Sonerai II. Steel > tube, metal wings, stressed for about 9G. Rolls about 180deg/second. > Put a Jabiru in it. I've flown Jabirus here in Australia and my personal opinion is that the Jab is a nightmare of an engine. Ours had a failure in 22 hrs. It never ran well. Three failures in < 100 hrs before the guy sold it. The u/light mag here is littered with Jab failures. Mostly upper parts of the engine- valves and guides, cylinder studs. That was the 1600 engine. I note the first report here of the 2200. Same as always. Beautiful airframe. But the engine certification here was a bit sus in my opinion. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Oct 02, 1997
> > Hi John and others! > > > > Having had a ride in one lately, I can tell you the Piet's adequate but > > somewhat leisurely roll rate would rule it out for aerobatics before you > > even get into structural considerations. Forget about it. > > Worth knowing! > > > > > The best airplane in my opinion for cheap aerobatics is a Sonerai II. > Steel > > tube, metal wings, stressed for about 9G. Rolls about 180deg/second. > > Put a Jabiru in it. > > I've flown Jabirus here in Australia and my personal opinion is that the > Jab is a > nightmare of an engine. Ours had a failure in 22 hrs. It never ran well. > Three > failures in < 100 hrs before the guy sold it. The u/light mag here is > littered > with Jab failures. Mostly upper parts of the engine- valves and guides, > cylinder > studs. That was the 1600 engine. I note the first report here of the 2200. > Same > as always. Beautiful airframe. But the engine certification here was a bit > sus in my > opinion. > Now that's good intelligence! Been waiting to hear anecdotal evidence on the Jabiru for quite a while. Cross out that option... Now a Sonerai with a Model A... about 40lbs of ballast in the tail would do it... jk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike List <mlist(at)ladc.lockheed.com>
Subject: Change of e-mail address
Date: Oct 02, 1997
Steve, Hope you are still making good progress towards completing your Piet. I know you can taste it! I am dropping AOL today as my internet provider as I can only seem to get on between 11pm and 5am. Will contact you in a few days with a new e-mail address so I can keep up with the chat group. Thanks. Mike List (formerly powracer(at)aol.com) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Piet Stuff
Date: Oct 03, 1997
I have a number of questions that I'd like some feedback on. 1. Aileron hinges--Can anyone see a problem with using piano hinges which provide a gap seal at the same time? 2. Wing trailing edges--I've used a piece of folded over aluminum with rounded TE. They are rigid, light, and with the fold and the edges bent just a bit more for extra strength, hold up well to fabric pressure. Any comments? 3. I'd like to confer with some other builders. Is there anyone out there within 120 miles of Rexburg, ID? I'd also be glad to show and tell. 4. Engine--I'm using a Ford Escort with about 80 hp. I know Ed Lubitz pioneered this installation. I have his conversion guide, but I'd like to talk to someone else who is using this type of installation, particularly about radiator placement/air scoop, and also distributor conversion. I have my engine mounted and running--but I also have some doubts, particularly about low end idle. Any comments? I'm repainting my fusalage this weekend after some damage repair. My plane is on the Jenny-type gear with motorcycle wheels and mechanical brakes. I have a one piece wing which just lacks a coat of epoxy varnish prior to recover with Polyfiber line of products. Thanks, Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Piet Stuff
Date: Oct 03, 1997
Hi Will I haven't any answers for you, but wondered how you are controling you brakes and stopping the axle/backing plate rotation? I really like the Jenny style gear but have been considering the split gear as it is easier to anchor the brakes and it may be safer in the event of a forced landing in tall crops etc. any comments appreciated. John Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Re: Piet Stuff -Reply
Date: Oct 03, 1997
I boxed each end of the axle where it sticks through the wooden gear on each side; in other words, I squared up the axle by welding plates to the sides. Then I made a verticle slot for them to slide in. This stops rotation and also limits verticle travel to about 3-4 inches. I haven't flow it yet, but know it will work. Saw similar setups at Broadhead. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jay@hsmpk12a-s2.Eng.Sun.COM (Janine Sunlin [TEMP])
Subject: Introduction to the Pietenpol group
Date: Oct 03, 1997
Hi! I joined the group a couple weeks ago, but I have been so busy I just haven't found time to introduce myself until now. I've really enjoyed the discussions. My name is J. and I live in the Bay Area of California. On weekends I help out with the restoration of old planes at an antique aircraft museum in San Martin. I don't know how rare female restorers are, but I am one and I would like to become one of the best restorers around. I was amazed to come across all this information about Pietenpols on the Web. Very useful since at the aicraft museum, we are in the middle of a Pietenpol restoration. I only wish there was this much information about Piper Cubs out there, figure that one out! I would like to restore an old discarded Cub. I am not sure of the model yet, (J3, L-4, Super Cub) but I would like to be able to do some aerobatics in the Cub and survive it. I looking into the pros and cons of each model, then I will begin the hunt for my dilapidated Cub. If anyone has any suggestions re: the Cub, since it is not Pietenpol related, email me directly. Thanks! J. Sunlin Sun Microsystems Inc. email: jay@pooh-bah.eng.sun.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Oct 05, 1997
perry wrote: > > Hi John and others! > > > > Having had a ride in one lately, I can tell you the Piet's adequate but > > somewhat leisurely roll rate would rule it out for aerobatics before you > > even get into structural considerations. Forget about it. > > Worth knowing! > > > > > The best airplane in my opinion for cheap aerobatics is a Sonerai II. > Steel > > tube, metal wings, stressed for about 9G. Rolls about 180deg/second. > > Put a Jabiru in it. > > I've flown Jabirus here in Australia and my personal opinion is that the > Jab is a > nightmare of an engine. Ours had a failure in 22 hrs. It never ran well. > Three > failures in < 100 hrs before the guy sold it. The u/light mag here is > littered > with Jab failures. Mostly upper parts of the engine- valves and guides, > cylinder > studs. That was the 1600 engine. I note the first report here of the 2200. > Same > as always. Beautiful airframe. But the engine certification here was a bit > sus in my > opinion. Perry, I am quite interested in your comments on the Jab engine . I am about to build a Kolb Mark Three for Jim Paige overin Rockport Texas and he does not like the rotex engines and has insisted that I hang a Jabaru on it . He nor I know anything about the engine except from the data we have read and talking to the dealer that sells them . It sounds like a great engine and is 4cy. What you are saying is that is more advertising than performance. Please elaborate on your experience with the as well as others that you know that have had a problem with them Thanks Ernie. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: perry
Subject: Re: New member
Date: Oct 04, 1997
Hi people, > Perry, I am quite interested in your comments on the Jab engine . I am > about to build a Kolb Mark Three for Jim Paige overin Rockport Texas and > he does not like the rotex engines and has insisted that I hang a Jabaru > on it . He nor I know anything about the engine except from the data we > have read and talking to the dealer that sells them . It sounds like a > great engine and is 4cy. What you are saying is that is more advertising > than performance. Please elaborate on your experience with the as well > as others that you know that have had a problem with them Thanks Ernie. The Jab is a lovely engine to hear. It is very small, looks simple and the Jab airframe is terrific. The engine has had a long history of failure at the upper end, Nothing seems to go wrong at the bottom end. It always seems to be valve related, valve guides, springs, etc. Our club's history was not unusual. If you really want to get the low down on the Jabiru engine I can get the email address of the owner of our former plane. One Jabiru owner passed by and related a saga of 5 engine failures. Again, this engine wasn't anywhere near overhaul time. I could easily find 2 dozen or more Jab failures detailed in our mag over the last 2 years. Probably more, and all would have upper engine symptoms. I would like to think it was all poor maintenance, but our guys babied the plane. All of this was based on the Jab 1600 motor. This is a an extract of a report form the September 1997 AUF mag: Jabiru 2200:" Engine began to run extremely rough and exhibited substantial loss of power, with very excessive vibration. Cause: "Inspection revealed no. 4 cylinder 5/16 inch rocker assembly hold down screw cap ripped out the full thread from the rocker assembly mount plate, breaking the assembly shaft housing in half, destroying the adjuster cups in the process." Total engine time 132 hrs. 7 hrs since service. I note that this a/c has 406 airframe hrs and 132 engine hrs, perhaps indicating that the 2200 engine is a replacement for a 1600 or another 2200. MAybe it's too soon to tell about the 2200, but my personal opinion is that I would not fly on a Jab 1600 of any kind. The failure rate is simply too high. Pity, because the airframe is a real winner, I loved flying the plane, and it would be great to have an Oz success story. There are probably a dozen theories about the problems with the Jabiru 1600 engine and some conspiracy ones too (like how it got certified). My advice would be to wait until the 2200 has established a history of good performance. If it is not substantially different from the 1600, then the evidence should be clear pretty soon. Perry Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Pietenpol group
Date: Oct 06, 1997
> I joined the group a couple weeks ago, but I have been so busy I just haven't > found time to introduce myself until now. I've really enjoyed the discussions. > > My name is J. and I live in the Bay Area of California. On weekends I help > out with the restoration of old planes at an antique aircraft museum in > San Martin. I don't know how rare female restorers are, but I am one and I > would like to become one of the best restorers around. > > I was amazed to come across all this information about Pietenpols on the Web. > Very useful since at the aicraft museum, we are in the middle of a Pietenpol > restoration. I only wish there was this much information about Piper Cubs out > there, figure that one out! > > I would like to restore an old discarded Cub. I am not sure of the model yet, > (J3, L-4, Super Cub) but I would like to be able to do some aerobatics in the > Cub and survive it. I looking into the pros and cons of each model, then I will > begin the hunt for my dilapidated Cub. If anyone has any suggestions re: the > Cub, since it is not Pietenpol related, email me directly. Thanks! > > J. Sunlin > Sun Microsystems Inc. > email: jay@pooh-bah.eng.sun.com > > Marry us all J., puhleeeeeeeeezzzzzz! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brad Schultz
Subject: Continental Motor Mount Jig
Date: Oct 06, 1997
A year or so there was a continental motor mount jig being passed around. Does anyone know where it is and it's availability? Thanks. Brad Schultz brsch(at)afcon.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Web Site
Date: Oct 07, 1997
It isn't much now, but I am starting a web site to follow the progress of my Piet project (right now the only progress is me waiting for the plans, looking for an engine, etc...). However, I do have a very large collection of Piet photos, all/most of which have come from the Buckeye site and others. If there is any objections to this I will immediately remove them. I think it's handy, though, to have 60+ photos all in one place. For those interested: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/ Richard Web Developer, www.autoeurope.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Piet Stuff
Date: Oct 07, 1997
William Conway wrote: > I have a number of questions that I'd like some feedback on. > > 1. Aileron hinges--Can anyone see a problem with using piano hinges > which provide a gap seal at the same time? Works well. Someone has plans, I think it is Vi Kapler > > > 2. Wing trailing edges--I've used a piece of folded over aluminum with > > rounded TE. They are rigid, light, and with the fold and the > edges > bent just a bit more for extra strength, hold up well to fabric > pressure. > Any comments? > Works well several have used it. > 3. I'd like to confer with some other builders. Is there anyone out > there > within 120 miles of Rexburg, ID? I'd also be glad to show and > tell. > > I live in provo. In laws live in Burley. I hope to fly it there next spring/summer. > 4. Engine--I'm using a Ford Escort with about 80 hp. I know Ed Lubitz > > pioneered this installation. I have his conversion guide, but I'd > like > to talk to someone else who is using this type of installation, > particularly about radiator placement/air scoop, and also > distributor > conversion. I have my engine mounted and running--but I also have > > some doubts, particularly about low end idle. Any comments? > Can't help you here mine is a A-65 > I'm repainting my fusalage this weekend after some damage repair. My > plane is on the Jenny-type gear with motorcycle wheels and mechanical > brakes. I have a one piece wing which just lacks a coat of epoxy > varnish prior to recover with Polyfiber line of products. > > Thanks, Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com>
Subject: Re: Web Site
Date: Oct 07, 1997
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > However, I do have a very large collection of Piet photos, all/most > of which have come from the Buckeye site and others. If there is any > objections to this I will immediately remove them. I think it's > handy, though, to have 60+ photos all in one place. > Richard, Thanks for the supply of photos. Many times the photos answer questions that come up. I for one hope you will leave them there. Regards, Dick Winkel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Web Site
Date: Oct 07, 1997
> Thanks for the supply of photos. Many times the photos answer > questions that come up. I for one hope you will leave them there. Your quite welcome. I should also mention that if anyone that has Piet-related photos they would like scanned or exsisting images they would like available on the web, I have over 550MB of server space here (really!), so just email me with your stuff or snail mail me the pics and I'll put 'em online. If I get enough, I'll just make a separate image page off the main one, with photo credits where needed. If it would help fellow builders, close shots of each of the various components being built would be great to have online. Email: rdecosta(at)wrld.com Snail mail: Richard DeCosta 238 Auburn St. #F65 Portland, ME 04103 Also, I will be visiting the Yesterday's Wings Museum in New Hampshire on Saturday, to get a close look at their Piet, talk to the pilots/builders, and hopefully I'll be taking along a digital camera. Look for the photos next week. Richard > > > > However, I do have a very large collection of Piet photos, all/most > > of which have come from the Buckeye site and others. If there is any > > objections to this I will immediately remove them. I think it's > > handy, though, to have 60+ photos all in one place. > > > > Richard, > > Thanks for the supply of photos. Many times the photos answer questions > that come up. I for one hope you will leave them there. > > Regards, > Dick Winkel > Web Developer, www.autoeurope.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Re: Continental Motor Mount Jig
Date: Oct 07, 1997
>A year or so there was a continental motor mount jig being passed >around. Does anyone know where it is and it's availability? Thanks. > >Brad Schultz >brsch(at)afcon.net > Boy I need this after you are finished. Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Piets in Atlanta?
Date: Oct 07, 1997
Any Piets in the Atlanta area (or builders?) Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Owners Manual
Date: Oct 07, 1997
Has an owners manual been made for the Piet, either when it was designed or over the years? In other words, a book that lists Va, Vs, Vne, preflight procedures, emergency procedures, mainenance, etc...? Does one come with the plans? Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Web Site
Date: Oct 08, 1997
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > It isn't much now, but I am starting a web site to follow the > progress of my Piet project (right now the only progress is me > waiting for the plans, looking for an engine, etc...). > > However, I do have a very large collection of Piet photos, all/most > of which have come from the Buckeye site and others. If there is any > objections to this I will immediately remove them. I think it's > handy, though, to have 60+ photos all in one place. > > For those interested: > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/ > > Richard > > Web Developer, www.autoeurope.com Richard, Is the addreaa correct http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/ I have not been able to get through to your pics on this address. I may be doing something wrong Ernie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Owners Manual
Date: Oct 08, 1997
>Has an owners manual been made for the Piet, either when it was >designed or over the years? In other words, a book that lists Va, Vs, >Vne, preflight procedures, emergency procedures, maintenance, etc...? >Does one come with the plans? > >Richard Richard- Donald Pietenpol has compiled a manual of facts, history, and tips on Model A conversions but it is not a detailed building or flight manual. You will find that the plans are complete but still leave you room for solving some things on your own. I spend alot of time just thinking thru how I'd like to do the next step or in which order. As some of us here have said previously we have never seen two Pietenpols built alike. (Even Pietenpol himself didn't build two alike.) They all look, feel, and fly just a little bit different from each other. Pietenpol's goal in design and building was to keep it simple and light weight. If you keep your thinking like that you'll end up with a wonderful airplane. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Owners Manual
Date: Oct 08, 1997
Actually, my question had more to do with flight operations than building. Once the plane is done, has a set of flying procedures been produced by anyone? For exemple, when I got my pilot's liscence, I had to know every page of the Cessna 152 & 172 Owner's Manuals, which included evrything from a Pre-Flight checklist to V-speeds to weight and balance. I tend to be a somewhat anal, "by-the-book" kind of pilot (my obsession with safety is famous at the flight school at PWM) and would LOVE to see this kind of book for the Piet. If not, well, I may just have to write my own... :) Richard > Richard- Donald Pietenpol has compiled a manual of facts, > history, > and tips on Model A conversions but it is not a detailed building or > flight manual. You will find that the plans are complete but > still leave you room for solving some things on your own. > I spend alot of time just thinking thru how I'd like to do the > next step or in which order. > As some of us here have said previously we have never seen two > Pietenpols built alike. (Even Pietenpol himself didn't build two > alike.) They all look, feel, and fly just a little bit different from > each other. Pietenpol's goal in design and building was to > keep it simple and light weight. If you keep your thinking like > that you'll end up with a wonderful airplane. > > Mike C. > > From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> > Subject: Re: Owners Manual > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > > >Has an owners manual been made for the Piet, either when it was > > >designed or over the years? In other words, a book that lists Va, > >Vs, > > >Vne, preflight procedures, emergency procedures, maintenance, > >etc...? > > >Does one come with the plans? > > > > > >Richard Web Developer, www.autoeurope.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Owners Manual
Date: Oct 08, 1997
Richard, Because the Piet was designed so long ago, before the federal government was so involved, and because as stated earlier each Piet is a little different, there hasn't been an end-all performance sheet or operations manual written. Every builder ends up creating their own. Be it in their mind or on paper. If you write one for your ship it may not apply to mine. I have been told by those who have flown both that the Piet flies more like a Jenny than any other ship and there's an old adage for the Jenny that states "There are only three rules to flying the Jenny; 1) Keep your airspeed up. 2) Keep your airspeed up. 3) Keep your airspeed up." When dealing with a Pietenpol, you are truly transported back to the early days of flying. Thank heavens! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Owners Manual
Date: Oct 08, 1997
Rich, I have a friend that is really into performance numbers. He was asking me what my max criuse is and I must admit that I have been having so much fun flying I haven't been real exact about numbers. Maybe a Peit is not a real exact aircraft? Anyway I think I am getting about 67mph at 1900rpm. 500fpm at 50 and just a little better than 75 wide open. At a high angle of attack the AS is not accurate, but the piet gives me lots of notice that I getting slow. Even in a drastic slip the back wing gently start to drop if I get too slow. In fact some bugs got in the peto(sp) tube. Didn't notice on preflight. I got several landings better than normal without AS. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
> From Steve(at)byu.edu Fri Oct 10 10:54:49 1997 > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:52:52 +0000 > From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) > Subject: Climbing > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > To: Pietenpol Discussion > After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, > there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get > in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > > Richard Ahh.. a Red Dwarf fan... john kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
>After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, >there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get >in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... Well, I made it to Brodhead this summer and took a ride in a Piet there. Let's just say that at 6'2", I did a fair amount of yoga to get into the front. Kinda stepped up, worked my way through the wires so that most of my body was sticking out under the *opposite* wing, then backed my legs in. Not huge fun, but getting out was easier. And, once inside, it was suprisingly roomy. At least much moreso than it looked from outside. Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
Steve Pugh wrote: > > >After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, > > >there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get > >in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > > Well, I made it to Brodhead this summer and took a ride in a Piet > there. > Let's just say that at 6'2", I did a fair amount of yoga to get into > the > front. Kinda stepped up, worked my way through the wires so that most > of > my body was sticking out under the *opposite* wing, then backed my > legs in. > Not huge fun, but getting out was easier. > > And, once inside, it was suprisingly roomy. At least much moreso than > it > looked from outside. > > Cheers, > > Steve Pugh Well after just putting on my struts and every other obstruction, I had to climb in my front cockpit to fasten a bolt for the wing diagonals. I did make it, at 210lbs and 5'10" but it wasn't without thinking- " here I am alone, in the night, in a closed building, doors locked, nearly stuck." "Uhm.... Better not get stuck" Everything was ok and I didn't even have to take off my shoes this time. Steve e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
Which brings me to another important question. It's one that we don't like to think much about, but we must. Considering what must be done to get in and out of the front cockpit, AND the fact that the gas tank is right in your lap up there, has anyone thought about what would happen in a crash situation? What is one to do? Does one get out in time? This is aweful, I know, but it must be thought about. Richard > Well after just putting on my struts and every other obstruction, I > had to climb in my front cockpit to fasten a bolt for the wing > diagonals. I did make it, at 210lbs and 5'10" but it wasn't without > thinking- " here I am alone, in the night, in a closed building, > doors locked, nearly stuck." "Uhm.... Better not get stuck" > Everything was ok and I didn't even have to take off my shoes this > time. > > Steve e. > Steve Pugh wrote: > > > > > >After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the > > >Piet, > > > > >there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you > > >get in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > > > > Well, I made it to Brodhead this summer and took a ride in a Piet > > there. Let's just say that at 6'2", I did a fair amount of yoga to > > get into the front. Kinda stepped up, worked my way through the > > wires so that most of my body was sticking out under the > > *opposite* wing, then backed my legs in. > > Not huge fun, but getting out was easier. > > > > And, once inside, it was suprisingly roomy. At least much moreso > > than it looked from outside. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Steve Pugh > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Pugh
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
>Which brings me to another important question. It's one that we don't >like to think much about, but we must. Considering what must be done >to get in and out of the front cockpit, AND the fact that the gas >tank is right in your lap up there, has anyone thought about what >would happen in a crash situation? What is one to do? Does one >get out in time? This is aweful, I know, but it must be thought >about. I wondered about that as I was flying in the front (or, more accurately, as I was getting out..). Don't know the answer, but I do like the slow approach to a perfectly flat grass field for all my emergencies ;-) As for the 99% of the time where said field isn't available, I dunno. Cheers, Steve Pugh Senior Systems Engineer Foundation Imaging ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Climbing
After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Its a bit of a challenge all right but I've seen some pretty big guys do it. You can be assured that once in there it is an experience you'll dream about! Thanks for the pic's posted on your site they are great! Saved them all. Even found one of me,( standing in the way) looking at Jim Kinsella's beautiful handywork. Any chace someone out there could make a screen saver slide show out of this? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimsury(at)fbtc.net (Jim Sury)
Subject: Drag and Antidrag wires
Date: Oct 10, 1997
I was just wondering what most builders of Pietenpols are using for drag and anti-drag wires. I'm thinking of using 9 ga. spring steel wire. Any comments for or against spring steel will be appreciated. Jim Sury ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 10, 1997
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, > there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get > in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > > Richard > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Richard. It aint easy. I have beenhung up in that area several times and needed an assist for in and out ,but I am 6-1 and 65 shorter younger folks find it not so hard to do but it is worth the effort. one day I expect that I will get stuck in there and will have to be cut out. E.H ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: My First "In-Person" look at a Piet
Date: Oct 11, 1997
Well, it's been a very interesting day at the airfield. My wife & son & I left at 6am this morning to go there, had a pancake breakfast at the field to benefit the local EAA, and tehn I got my first in-person look at the Piet. What a pretty bird! I will have about 15+ pictures of it plus other planes that flew in there, by Monday noon-ish. My first impression of the Piet was "Wow, its alot smaller in person!" I was expecting a bigger plane. No matter. after a good look at the cockpit I decided its just fine. This particular plane was in MINT condition, an absolutely gorgeous airplane inside and out!.-- Unfortunately, it's not quite so mint anymore. Just after touchdown on it's first flight of the day, the right bungee cord snapped, the wheel got pushed back, rubbed against the cable, which acted as a brake, and the poor guy flipped right over onto its back. Myself, the pilots father, and another gentleman who were standing right next to the runway (me with my camera) ran to the plane immediately. Turns out the pilot had just a bloody nose and a bruised ego, but the poor little Piet is going to need at least a winter's worth of work. :( For a while afterwards, I started to have my doubts about the plane, but, this is the first encounter I've had with one, and accidents will happen. Hopefully I will be able to see it fly again in the spring. In the meanwhile, I wait for my plans to arrive... Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Piet site
Date: Oct 13, 1997
For those of you who tried to access my Piet page over the weekend, yes, it was down all weekend. :( Its back up now, and has new pictures of the beautiful plane at Yesterday's Wings. http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/ Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com>
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 13, 1997
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, > there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get > in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > I went to Brodhead '96 hoping to answer the same question. Took photos. The pictures are on my web site at: http://www.i2k.com/~rwinkel Follow the link to the "Aeroplane" page. Have not yet been in a (fully assembled) Piet. Would appreciate comments from any more experienced than myself. Is the demonstrated technique proper/best? The sheet metal in front of the front 'pit had been bent by careless passengers during entry. Is that common? Dick Winkel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 14, 1997
> From Steve(at)byu.edu Mon Oct 13 23:48:09 1997 > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:43:22 -0400 > From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> > Subject: Re: Climbing > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; U) (via Mercury MTS v1.31 (NDS)) > X-Listname: > Content-Length: 699 > > Richard DeCosta wrote: > > > > After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, > > there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get > > in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > > > > I went to Brodhead '96 hoping to answer the same question. Took > photos. The pictures are on my web site at: > http://www.i2k.com/~rwinkel > Follow the link to the "Aeroplane" page. > > Have not yet been in a (fully assembled) Piet. Would appreciate > comments from any more experienced than myself. Is the demonstrated > technique proper/best? The sheet metal in front of the front 'pit had > been bent by careless passengers during entry. Is that common? > > > Dick Winkel > I'm 6' 195lbs and I had relatively little trouble getting in the front pit. You basically get along side it and hike one leg over onto the seat, then put your torso right through and out over the opposite side, at which point it is possible to draw your other leg into the cockpit, at which point you can now worm your way into the seat. It was just big enough for me. It wasn't much harder than folding and spindling your way into the front of a J-3. It's actually harder to get out than in (reverse the getting in procedure). It would be nice to have a nice big step (like an oak plank "running board" attached to the front and aft gear legs) because it's easy to slip and fall and get sliced and diced by the drift wires between the struts. The rear cockpit is almost as difficult if there is no scallop cut out of the trailing edge. John Kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Climbing
Date: Oct 14, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > > > From Steve(at)byu.edu Mon Oct 13 23:48:09 1997 > > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:43:22 -0400 > > From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> > > Subject: Re: Climbing > > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; U) (via Mercury MTS v1.31 (NDS)) > > X-Listname: > > Content-Length: 699 > > > > Richard DeCosta wrote: > > > > > > After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the Piet, > > > there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get > > > in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person... > > > > > > > I went to Brodhead '96 hoping to answer the same question. Took > > photos. The pictures are on my web site at: > > http://www.i2k.com/~rwinkel > > Follow the link to the "Aeroplane" page. > > > > Have not yet been in a (fully assembled) Piet. Would appreciate > > comments from any more experienced than myself. Is the demonstrated > > technique proper/best? The sheet metal in front of the front 'pit had > > been bent by careless passengers during entry. Is that common? > > > > > > Dick Winkel > > > > I'm 6' 195lbs and I had relatively little trouble getting in the front pit. You > basically get along side it and hike one leg over onto the seat, then put > your torso right through and out over the opposite side, at which point it > is possible to draw your other leg into the cockpit, at which point you can > now worm your way into the seat. It was just big enough for me. It wasn't > much harder than folding and spindling your way into the front of a J-3. > > It's actually harder to get out than in (reverse the getting in procedure). > It would be nice to have a nice big step (like an oak plank "running board" > attached to the front and aft gear legs) because it's easy to slip and fall > and get sliced and diced by the drift wires between the struts. > > The rear cockpit is almost as difficult if there is no scallop cut out of the > trailing edge. > > John Kahn All: Which brings to mind... How many are building the "flop" into the trailing edge to facilitate entry and exit? Are some of you just leaving the trailing edge "straight" or a permanent "cut-out"? Gary "I've got the flop"...:) ________________________________________________________________________________


June 03, 1997 - October 14, 1997

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ab