Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ac
October 14, 1997 - December 12, 1997
| From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Dick,
I had trouble with the sheet metal around my cocpits getting bent on the
edge. I think I should have used heaver material and braced it better.
When I get around to redoing my padding I was thinking about rigging up
some sort of brace. The weather in Pa has been too nice to take time
lately. I've gotten in 4 or 5 hours in the last week. Broke down an
payed the price for some slick mags. They work great. I can start the
C-65 at idle with one hand from behind the prop with on hand on the Rt
wing strut. Much safer.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
Gary,
The flop trailing edge is a good idea. I read somewhere that you lose
quite a bit if lift by cutting out a curved piece. Mine is just solid
and it's a little tight getting in.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
>
> I had trouble with the sheet metal around my cocpits getting bent on the
> edge. I think I should have used heaver material and braced it better.
> When I get around to redoing my padding I was thinking about rigging up
> some sort of brace. The weather in Pa has been too nice to take time
> lately. I've gotten in 4 or 5 hours in the last week. Broke down an
> payed the price for some slick mags. They work great. I can start the
> C-65 at idle with one hand from behind the prop with on hand on the Rt
> wing strut. Much safer.
>
> Craig
>
The Piet I was in had plywood coaming. Quite stiff. A most of it never
needs to be removed anyway.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> |
The topic of the cutout in the wing forces me to surface again.
DON'T DO IT.
Having owned one with the cutout I can tell you lose a lot of lift doing
that. Sit in one at idle and run your hands along the trailing edge
where you're going to place the cutout and you'll feel a lot of air.
Air over the wing means lift. Ask a multi-engine instructor about
leaving a little power on the engines during final. Bernie talked about
this somewhere but I forget where. A flap would be fine albeit more
weight (we're always thinking about weight right?).
As for the front cockpit? I always figured if the passenger couldn't
get in I shouldn't be flying them anyway!!! :-)
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
Speaking of flops, how does one retain the flop in flight. What kind of
fasteners are in use?
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
While goofing off in Ed Snyder's Piet one day Andrew King said
that he un-latched the flop and it didn't move. He could move it
around at will. It didn't lift up like you might expect. The real key
here is the turbulence which may or may not be generated by the
shape of that cut out. (over the tail, that is.) Joe Leonard has
fiddled with styrofoam in and out of his Grega cut out and his
observation was not so much with lift as it was with turbulence.
Mike C. I dunno. Have to experiment.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> |
Joe Leonard has fiddled with styrofoam in and out of his Grega cut out
and his
observation was not so much with lift as it was with turbulence.
Mike C. I dunno. Have to experiment.
---------
I think you'll find a difference between the Clark-Y airfoil that Grega
uses and the Eiffle-36 (kinda) that Pietenpol used.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Seat and shoulder belts |
While sitting in the fuselage the other day, the thought crossed my mind
that my face was very close to the instrument panel, and that I would
probably want a very firm shoulder harness to protect the brain bucket if
experiencing extreme deceleration, ie a big boo boo.
Only question that comes to mind, and is absent on the plans is where to
attach the seat belt in the rear cockpit, and where to attach the shoulder
harness in both cockpits. The front pit I think could be attached to the
landing gear fitting. However, more hardware (weight) me be needed back of
the rear seat.
What and where are you guys attaching same to? Are you running wire
cable(s) from an aft location?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimsury(at)fbtc.net (Jim Sury) |
| Subject: | Re: Cut-out/Lift |
>
>Joe Leonard has fiddled with styrofoam in and out of his Grega cut out
>and his
>observation was not so much with lift as it was with turbulence.
>Mike C. I dunno. Have to experiment.
>---------
>I think you'll find a difference between the Clark-Y airfoil that Grega
>uses and the Eiffle-36 (kinda) that Pietenpol used.
>
>Bill
>
>
I'm building a Grega GN-1 and as far as I can tell the airfoil is the same
as the Piet. airfoil. I believe the Clark-Y has a flat bottom. My plans
showed the airfoil to have a concaved lower surface just as the Pietenpols.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimsury(at)fbtc.net (Jim Sury) |
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
>While sitting in the fuselage the other day, the thought crossed my mind
>that my face was very close to the instrument panel, and that I would
>probably want a very firm shoulder harness to protect the brain bucket if
>experiencing extreme deceleration, ie a big boo boo.
>
>Only question that comes to mind, and is absent on the plans is where to
>attach the seat belt in the rear cockpit, and where to attach the shoulder
>harness in both cockpits. The front pit I think could be attached to the
>landing gear fitting. However, more hardware (weight) me be needed back of
>the rear seat.
>
>What and where are you guys attaching same to? Are you running wire
>cable(s) from an aft location?
>
>
>I was wondering the same thing. The seat belt can be attached to cable from
the back bays but how do you do the shoulder harness since the shoulders are
above the rear turtle deck. The attachment point for shoulder harnesses
should be above the shoulders. If they are below the shoulders I understand
that on impact the force drives you down crushing your spine. And that
wouldn't be too healthy. I really don't know how to attach the shoulder
harness. We need help with this one.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Cut-out/Lift |
Right on, Michael! I flew mine for about two years with a cut-out center
section and then modified it to incorporate the "flop". As a result, the
climb improved noticeably and the airflow over the tail smoothed out, re-
lieving a bit of tailheaviness in flight.
I use simple cupboard clips to hold it in position, one per side on the
lower surface. These primarily keep the flop from "flopping" down while
on the ground; in flight it will trail about even with the wing TE
without the clips in place.
Lifting the flop slightly in flight for some reason causes the nose to
pitch down (possibly because of disturbed airflow over the horizontal
stab). Despite blocking the upward view from the rear pit, I would
recommend the flop be used on these airplanes--and it also provides shade
from the sun in true "parasol" fashion.
Cheers to all,
Graham
On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Michael D Cuy wrote:
> While goofing off in Ed Snyder's Piet one day Andrew King said
> that he un-latched the flop and it didn't move. He could move it
> around at will. It didn't lift up like you might expect. The real key
> here is the turbulence which may or may not be generated by the
> shape of that cut out. (over the tail, that is.) Joe Leonard has
> fiddled with styrofoam in and out of his Grega cut out and his
> observation was not so much with lift as it was with turbulence.
> Mike C. I dunno. Have to experiment.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continental Motor Mount Jig |
I built one first as I have a A75. In looking over the plans from the GN-1,
I realized this was key to whether I build a Piet or not. Then I bought the
Hoopman Plans and need to blend the motormount to the "Real Piet".
Anyway, a motor mount jig is not hard to build. I used 1/4" x 2 x 2 steel
angle and laid out two rectangles over the plan dimensions on the floor. You
need a rectangle simulating the firewall and one simulating the engine.
(This is where you can use chalk marks just like the good old days!) Weld
deep joints to hold the frame together. Check the dimensions again as the
chalk marks allow for an estimate only and drill 1/4" holes in the right
places. The tricky part comes in the 4-5/16" offset stacking of the
rectangles to keep the frames aligned and parallel 10-1/2" apart. I used a
lot of c-clamps and plywood cut at 10-1/2". This welding is good practice
and the welds need to be strong but not "pretty". The time invested was
about 10 hours and the steel was bought from a surplus yard at about $20.
You are going to build the whole airplane. Why not build your own jig(s)?
>>A year or so there was a continental motor mount jig being passed
>>around. Does anyone know where it is and it's availability? Thanks.
>>
>>Brad Schultz
>>brsch(at)afcon.net
>>
>Boy I need this after you are finished.
>Barry Davis
>bed(at)mindspring.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | wood supply in Eastern US? |
Well, I got my official info pack from Donald Pietenpol yesterday,
and my check is now on it's way to him. Now I can start
seriously biting my nails...
My question is: Are there any reputable aircraft wood supply
companies in or near the Eastern US? I live in Maine.
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cut-out/Lift |
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> Subject: Cut-out/Lift
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> While goofing off in Ed Snyder's Piet one day Andrew King said
> that he un-latched the flop and it didn't move. He could move it
> around at will. It didn't lift up like you might expect. The real key
> here is the turbulence which may or may not be generated by the
> shape of that cut out. (over the tail, that is.) Joe Leonard has
> fiddled with styrofoam in and out of his Grega cut out and his
> observation was not so much with lift as it was with turbulence.
> Mike C. I dunno. Have to experiment.
>
> Does Ed's plane have "A" power, and is the rad up front?
I have been wondering about the effects of the rad on center section
lift, and if the lift was noticeably different when aircooled power
is used?
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Picture of Mr. Pietenpol? |
Does anyone have, or know the whereabouts of a good quality picture
of Bernie Pietenpol? I want to put one on my site (history page). A
picture of him around the time he designed the Air Camper would be
great but not necissary (standing next to one would be the best!).
Thanks,
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Drag and Antidrag wires |
Jim Sury wrote:
> I was just wondering what most builders of Pietenpols are using for
> drag
> and anti-drag wires. I'm thinking of using 9 ga. spring steel wire.
> Any
> comments for or against spring steel will be appreciated.
> Jim Sury
Hi Jim.
I used 1/8" 7x7 braided stainless cable. Same stuff I used thoughout
the airplane.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
Richard Winkel wrote:
> Richard DeCosta wrote:
> >
> > After looking and looking at the photos I have collected of the
> Piet,
> > there's one thing I still can't figure out: "How the smeg do you get
>
> > in the front cockpit!?" Maybe it's more obvious in person...
> >
>
> I went to Brodhead '96 hoping to answer the same question. Took
> photos. The pictures are on my web site at:
> http://www.i2k.com/~rwinkel
> Follow the link to the "Aeroplane" page.
>
> Have not yet been in a (fully assembled) Piet. Would appreciate
> comments from any more experienced than myself. Is the demonstrated
> technique proper/best? The sheet metal in front of the front 'pit had
>
> been bent by careless passengers during entry. Is that common?
>
> Dick Winkel
I used 040 al sheet. This is pretty heavy stuff, but never to be
bent, even with errant feet! Also I added about 4-5" of
1/16" ply on the turtle deck behind the pilot seat.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
Ian Holland wrote:
> While sitting in the fuselage the other day, the thought crossed my
> mind
> that my face was very close to the instrument panel, and that I would
> probably want a very firm shoulder harness to protect the brain bucket
> if
> experiencing extreme deceleration, ie a big boo boo.
>
> Only question that comes to mind, and is absent on the plans is where
> to
> attach the seat belt in the rear cockpit, and where to attach the
> shoulder
> harness in both cockpits. The front pit I think could be attached to
> the
> landing gear fitting. However, more hardware (weight) me be needed
> back of
> the rear seat.
>
> What and where are you guys attaching same to? Are you running wire
> cable(s) from an aft location?
I ran my cables back to the first compression member that intersects
with the
top longerons. I bolted through the gusset and the vertical uprights.
To this
hardpoint on each side I ran a piece of cable that loops forward to
which the shoulder
harness anchors.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wood supply in Eastern US? |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> My question is: Are there any reputable aircraft wood supply
> companies in or near the Eastern US? I live in Maine.
>
I've been pleased with Wick's in Highland IL, just east of St.Louis MO.
If you shop around you can probably beat the price... but I've found
quality very good, and price acceptable (other things on the airplane
will cost more).
There must be something closer to Maine though.
Dick Winkel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
> I ran my cables back to the first compression member that intersects
> with the
> top longerons. I bolted through the gusset and the vertical uprights.
> To this
> hardpoint on each side I ran a piece of cable that loops forward to
> which the shoulder
> harness anchors.
>
Steve,
I went looking for evidence of this at your web page. I think I found
the bolt you describe in the picture taken back into the fuselage.
I don't understand the route taken by the cable that loops forward.
Could you describe it to the point that it is painfully obvious?
Or, perhaps you could add a photo on your page showing it??
By the way, a great photo of your ship by the mountains!
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
Richard Winkel wrote:
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
> > I ran my cables back to the first compression member that
> intersects
> > with the
> > top longerons. I bolted through the gusset and the vertical
> uprights.
> > To this
> > hardpoint on each side I ran a piece of cable that loops forward to
> > which the shoulder
> > harness anchors.
> >
>
> Steve,
>
> I went looking for evidence of this at your web page. I think I found
>
> the bolt you describe in the picture taken back into the fuselage.
>
Boy, I went looking on my page for evidence as well, but didn't bring
your attentionto that bolt because I figured it would be too obscure.
Guess not! I think I have
a couple of other photo's --hold tight, if I have them Ill post them up.
> I don't understand the route taken by the cable that loops forward.
> Could you describe it to the point that it is painfully obvious?
> Or, perhaps you could add a photo on your page showing it??
>
> By the way, a great photo of your ship by the mountains!
>
> Dick
Thanks! That was taken just after the Inspector left. I have the
little pink slip that
says I am airworthy!
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
Richard Winkel wrote:
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
> > I ran my cables back to the first compression member that
> intersects
> > with the
> > top longerons. I bolted through the gusset and the vertical
> uprights.
> > To this
> > hardpoint on each side I ran a piece of cable that loops forward to
> > which the shoulder
> > harness anchors.
> >
>
> Steve,
>
> I went looking for evidence of this at your web page. I think I found
>
> the bolt you describe in the picture taken back into the fuselage.
>
> I don't understand the route taken by the cable that loops forward.
> Could you describe it to the point that it is painfully obvious?
> Or, perhaps you could add a photo on your page showing it??
>
> By the way, a great photo of your ship by the mountains!
>
> Dick
Dick, and others with shoulder harness questions,
CHeck out my home page again. I just found and posted two more photo's
with the details
of the shoulder harness hardpoints.
Stevee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: My First "In-Person" look at a Piet |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> Well, it's been a very interesting day at the airfield. My wife & son
> & I left at 6am this morning to go there, had a pancake breakfast at
> the field to benefit the local EAA, and tehn I got my first in-person
> look at the Piet. What a pretty bird! I will have about 15+ pictures
> of it plus other planes that flew in there, by Monday noon-ish.
>
> My first impression of the Piet was "Wow, its alot smaller in
> person!" I was expecting a bigger plane. No matter. after a good look
> at the cockpit I decided its just fine. This particular plane was in
> MINT condition, an absolutely gorgeous airplane inside and out!.--
> Unfortunately, it's not quite so mint anymore. Just after touchdown
> on it's first flight of the day, the right bungee cord snapped, the
> wheel got pushed back, rubbed against the cable, which acted as a
> brake, and the poor guy flipped right over onto its back. Myself, the
> pilots father, and another gentleman who were standing right next
> to the runway (me with my camera) ran to the plane immediately. Turns
> out the pilot had just a bloody nose and a bruised ego, but the poor
> little Piet is going to need at least a winter's worth of work. :(
> For a while afterwards, I started to have my doubts about the plane,
> but, this is the first encounter I've had with one, and accidents
> will happen. Hopefully I will be able to see it fly again in the
> spring. In the meanwhile, I wait for my plans to arrive...
>
> Richard
Richard, what kind of damage occured, how did they clear the runway,
was the faa involved? Give us the
rest of the story!!! I'm interested in how the wing held up (side-down)
and protected the pilot, gas spills, etc.
Stevee
Got any pics?
SE
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
> Thanks! That was taken just after the Inspector left. I have the
>little pink slip that
>says I am airworthy!
Congratulations!! Fly off them hours and bring her out to sunny California
so that I can use your baby to get my taildragger signoff...ooops, I meant
so you can enjoys the sunsets here ;-)
Hats off to you, Steve!
Cheers,
Steve Pugh
Senior Systems Engineer
Foundation Imaging
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Southwick <ksouth(at)accesscomm.net> |
Hello Piet list!
I'm a new subscriber in Houston, Texas. Saw a finished
Air Camper here two weeks ago. Another is in unfinished (ready for
cloth) condition and for sale. I'm tempted but can't go for it right
now. But I'll keep watching.
Kevin
--
Kevin Southwick
ONE WORD COMMUNICATIONS
Online Help & Software User Manuals
Web Page Design
http://users.accesscomm.net/ksouth
(713) 864-6930, fax (713) 864-3056
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: My First "In-Person" look at a Piet |
I have pics, but they are such poor quality they wouldnt do any good.
I was too far away, plus my digital camera was set on a low
quality due to low batteries. (You wouldnt even be able to tell its a
Piet, unless I told you).
Anyway, about how the plane held up, I must say, remarkably well. The
plane flipped at about 30 MPH, after the initial touchdown).
Strangely enought, the prop was barely damaged, just a ding on one
side (how? I dont know). The gas cap and radiator cap, which were
taller than a normal ones, snapped off, spilling both gas and water.
No fire, thank goodness. One of the wing struts broke from the force
of the wheel hitting it, and the wing ended up being crooked (looking
from the front it was tilted about 10 degrees to the left). I dont
know how much damage to the wing itself. Not much I think. The plane
was flipped back onto its gear by about 6 people, and was rolled back
to its hangar (a VERY, VERY sad sight, since the plane was literally
IMMACULATE when I took the pictures of it that morning). The plane
took care of its pilot. Only a bloody nose. I think it was from
hitting the instrument panel (I didnt hear all of the conversation).
He WAS waring shoulder straps when it flipped.
I havnt talked to the pilot or the builder since then, since they
both left the field and hadnt come back before I left, so I dont know
EXACTLY what else was damaged. I am going to be calling him tomorrow.
> Richard, what kind of damage occured, how did they clear the runway,
> was the faa involved? Give us the
> rest of the story!!! I'm interested in how the wing held up (side-down)
> and protected the pilot, gas spills, etc.
>
> Stevee
>
> Got any pics?
> SE
> From: Steve Eldredge
> Subject: Re: My First "In-Person" look at a Piet
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> > Well, it's been a very interesting day at the airfield. My wife &
> > son & I left at 6am this morning to go there, had a pancake
> > breakfast at the field to benefit the local EAA, and tehn I got my
> > first in-person look at the Piet. What a pretty bird! I will have
> > about 15+ pictures of it plus other planes that flew in there, by
> > Monday noon-ish.
> >
> > My first impression of the Piet was "Wow, its alot smaller in
> > person!" I was expecting a bigger plane. No matter. after a good
> > look at the cockpit I decided its just fine. This particular plane
> > was in MINT condition, an absolutely gorgeous airplane inside and
> > out!.-- Unfortunately, it's not quite so mint anymore. Just after
> > touchdown on it's first flight of the day, the right bungee cord
> > snapped, the wheel got pushed back, rubbed against the cable,
> > which acted as a brake, and the poor guy flipped right over onto
> > its back. Myself, the pilots father, and another gentleman who
> > were standing right next to the runway (me with my camera) ran to
> > the plane immediately. Turns out the pilot had just a bloody nose
> > and a bruised ego, but the poor little Piet is going to need at
> > least a winter's worth of work. :( For a while afterwards, I
> > started to have my doubts about the plane, but, this is the first
> > encounter I've had with one, and accidents will happen. Hopefully
> > I will be able to see it fly again in the spring. In the
> > meanwhile, I wait for my plans to arrive...
> >
> > Richard
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
> CHeck out my home page again. I just found and posted two more photo's with
the details
> of the shoulder harness hardpoints.
>
Ah! Many thanks. You've answered all my shoulder harness questions.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: wood supply in Eastern US? |
>I've been pleased with Wick's in Highland IL, just east of St.Louis
MO.
>If you shop around you can probably beat the price... but I've found
>quality very good, and price acceptable (other things on the airplane
>will cost more).
Dick Winkel
I second this statement by Dick W. I've had nothing but
good things
to say about Wicks. They beat Aircraft Spruce generally on just
about everything----especially delivery. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
>I have a number of questions that I'd like some feedback on.
>
>1. Aileron hinges--Can anyone see a problem with using piano hinges
> which provide a gap seal at the same time?
>
>2. Wing trailing edges--I've used a piece of folded over aluminum with
> rounded TE. They are rigid, light, and with the fold and the edges
> bent just a bit more for extra strength, hold up well to fabric pressure.
> Any comments?
>
>3. I'd like to confer with some other builders. Is there anyone out there
> within 120 miles of Rexburg, ID? I'd also be glad to show and tell.
>
>4. Engine--I'm using a Ford Escort with about 80 hp. I know Ed Lubitz
> pioneered this installation. I have his conversion guide, but I'd like
> to talk to someone else who is using this type of installation,
> particularly about radiator placement/air scoop, and also distributor
> conversion. I have my engine mounted and running--but I also have
> some doubts, particularly about low end idle. Any comments?
>
IF YOU FEEL LIKE, YOU CAN GET IN TOUCH DIRECTLY TO ED LUBITZ, VIA HIS
E-MAIL, HE IS A GREAT AN HELPFULL GUY HE WILL BE OF GREAT ADVICE...
elubitz(at)online.net
SALUDOS
GARY GOWER
GUADALAJARA, MEXICO
>I'm repainting my fusalage this weekend after some damage repair. My
>plane is on the Jenny-type gear with motorcycle wheels and mechanical
>brakes. I have a one piece wing which just lacks a coat of epoxy
>varnish prior to recover with Polyfiber line of products.
>
>Thanks, Bill
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: wood supply in Eastern US? |
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> Subject: Re: wood supply in Eastern US?
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>
>
> >I've been pleased with Wick's in Highland IL, just east of St.Louis
> MO.
>
> >If you shop around you can probably beat the price... but I've found
>
> >quality very good, and price acceptable (other things on the airplane
>
> >will cost more).
>
>
> Dick Winkel
>
>
> I second this statement by Dick W. I've had nothing but
> good things
>
> to say about Wicks. They beat Aircraft Spruce generally on just
>
> about everything----especially delivery. Mike C.
>
>
Just a thought you might try boat yards. They often use sitka spruce
for masts and booms.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: wood supply in Eastern US? |
I would do that, and I might still look, but since I am new pretty
new to this, I would feel much safer using wood that is intended for
aircraft. At this point I wouldnt feel confident enough saying which
wood is good enough or not. Call me picky.
Richard
> Just a thought you might try boat yards. They often use sitka
> spruce
> for masts and booms.
>
> J Mc
> > I second this statement by Dick W. I've had nothing but
> > good things
> >
> > to say about Wicks. They beat Aircraft Spruce generally on just
> >
> > about everything----especially delivery. Mike C.
> >
> >
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
|~). _ _|_ _ _ _ _ | _ |~ _ _ _ _ _|
|~ |(/_ | (/_| ||_)(_)|_\ |~(_)| (/_\/(/_| .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
FYI, I am posting possible paint schemes for my Piet on my site
(gotta keep busy somehow 'til the plans arrive). If anyone would care
to vote, or just gawk, feel free. They're on the "My Progress" page
on http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
| |__) | ___| |_ ___ _ __ _ __ ___ | |___
| ___/ |/ _ \ __/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \ / _ \| / __|
| | | | __/ || __/ | | | |_) | (_) | \__ \
|_| |_|\___|\__\___|_| |_| .__/ \___/|_|___/
| |__ ___ _ __ _____ _____ _ __| |
| __/ _ \| '__/ _ \ \ / / _ \ '__| |
| | | (_) | | | __/\ V / __/ | |_|
|_| \___/|_| \___| \_/ \___|_| (_)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: wood supply in Eastern US? |
> From Steve(at)byu.edu Wed Oct 15 12:42:32 1997
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:32:16 +0000
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
> Subject: wood supply in Eastern US?
> Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) (via Mercury MTS v1.31 (NDS))
> My question is: Are there any reputable aircraft wood supply
> companies in or near the Eastern US? I live in Maine.
>
> Richard
>
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
>
There is a guy here in Ontario that sells aircraft grade spruce. He is about
2 hours west of Montreal, maybe 4 or 500 miles from Bangor. The nominally
higher Canadian price is very competitive with AS&S when you allow for the
33% difference in exchange rate. A lot of stuff is cheaper here when you
convert Can to US dollars.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Piets in Greece? |
I just found out my company is sending me to Greece for 8 days in
January '98 (!). Does anyone know of any Piet owners/builders in
Greece that I might meet while I am there?
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
About the FAA and the building process: Is there something I should do
durring the building process that'll make the FAA Certification
easier/more efficient? I am planning on keeping a detailed photo album
and detailed notebook of the progress, but is there anything else I
can or should do, like keep track of suppliers, errors, weight, etc?
Richard
-----------------------------
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
Web Design, Aircraft Design
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu |
>
To Kevin:
Sorry it took me so long to find this info about antennas but my friend
had my
old BPANewsletters.
If you look in the 3rd quarter of 1991, issue #33, page 7, there is a
nice article
by Buzz Baer of Salina, KS describing his installation of a com
antenna in
the verticle fin, with a diagram and an excellent photograph. ( I
believe I
heard that Mr. Baer passed away during the past year.)
Hope you can find this. If it works, I would like to do the same thing.
John Fay , Peoria, IL
email - aron(at)heartland.bradley.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
Thanks very much for the info and comments. I found the home page of Stevee
and the picture was worth a thousand words! and much head scratching. The
comments about having the attach points above the shoulders will not work
out in a piet. The lesser damage is likely a sore back vs a mushed in face.
> From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Seat and shoulder belts
> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 17:46 PM
>
> >While sitting in the fuselage the other day, the thought crossed my mind
> >that my face was very close to the instrument panel, and that I would
> >probably want a very firm shoulder harness to protect the brain bucket
if
> >experiencing extreme deceleration, ie a big boo boo.
> >
> >Only question that comes to mind, and is absent on the plans is where to
> >attach the seat belt in the rear cockpit, and where to attach the
shoulder
> >harness in both cockpits. The front pit I think could be attached to the
> >landing gear fitting. However, more hardware (weight) me be needed back
of
> >the rear seat.
> >
> >What and where are you guys attaching same to? Are you running wire
> >cable(s) from an aft location?
> >
> >
> >I was wondering the same thing. The seat belt can be attached to cable
from
> the back bays but how do you do the shoulder harness since the shoulders
are
> above the rear turtle deck. The attachment point for shoulder harnesses
> should be above the shoulders. If they are below the shoulders I
understand
> that on impact the force drives you down crushing your spine. And that
> wouldn't be too healthy. I really don't know how to attach the shoulder
> harness. We need help with this one.
> Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
>
> Thanks very much for the info and comments. I found the home page of Stevee
> and the picture was worth a thousand words! and much head scratching. The
> comments about having the attach points above the shoulders will not work
> out in a piet. The lesser damage is likely a sore back vs a mushed in face.
>
One way around it if the turtle deck is already built is to add a headrest
with the harness coming out the top. Otherwise I would raise the turtle deck to
the same height as the coaming foward. I've seen Piets like that and I
think they look better anyway.
john
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Seat and shoulder belts |
>
> Thanks very much for the info and comments. I found the home page of Stevee
> and the picture was worth a thousand words! and much head scratching. The
> comments about having the attach points above the shoulders will not work
> out in a piet. The lesser damage is likely a sore back vs a mushed in face.
>
One way around it if the turtle deck is already built is to add a headrest
with the harness coming out the top. Otherwise I would raise the turtle deck to
the same height as the coaming foward. I've seen Piets like that and I
think they look better anyway.
john
I agree with you john. I have an interesting photo I took from the
front seat of a Grega/Piet in the pattern at Brodhead. I held the
camera so the view was over my shoulder past the pilot to the tail.
The constant flapping of the clothing in the slip stream/propblast is
quite evident. It would only take a few inches of hieght increase in
the turtle deck to get the shoulders tucked in. There is a picture of
a Piet. in the 1933 Flying and Gliding manual that has this feature.
The higher seat backs would make for a safer and more comfortable
aircraft.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Svetlana V. Dominguez" |
| Subject: | Re: FAA Inspection |
>About the FAA and the building process: Is there something I should do
>durring the building process that'll make the FAA Certification
>easier/more efficient? I am planning on keeping a detailed photo album
>and detailed notebook of the progress, but is there anything else I
>can or should do, like keep track of suppliers, errors, weight, etc?
>
>Richard
>-----------------------------
>http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
>Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
>Web Design, Aircraft Design
>
>Yes there is one more thing that can be done. Get your local Technical
Advisor to inspect the aircraft as it progresses along. The name, phone
number and address of the nearest E.A.A. Techincal Advisor can given to you
by the local E.A.A. chapter or calling E.A.A.. This will satisfy the
F.A.A.'s required inspections and several insurance companies will give you
a discount on their rates.
Jose'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
In case somebody didn't see, Grant MacLaren said he mailed out
the latest newsletter about a week ago.....so our favorite mail will
be trickling in ! MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
If I were to decide on using a Corvair engine for my Piet, is there a
limitation to the actual year Corvair that it has to be? I read that
it was the 1960 model the Mr. Pietenpol used, but is that the ONLY
year that would work? I have found at least 5 engines in good shape
in various places, but they are not all 1960. Some are '64 some '62,
and only a couple are '60.
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BPAN Newsletter |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
> In case somebody didn't see, Grant MacLaren said he mailed out
> the latest newsletter about a week ago.....so our favorite mail will
> be trickling in ! MC
Hurry, Hurry, Hurray!
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Huge landmark passed last tuesday as I recieved the Airworthiness
certificate for my Air Camper.
The process was a real eyeopener because it lasted almost 3 hours. I
was able to correct all the squaks on site
Since Tuesday I have been taxi testing and have found that there are
another batch of things that have to be
changed. I didn't like the tailwheel setup, and in fact bent the A
frame on my third startup. I have rebuilt it and
included the cross member this time. subsequent taxi test show this to
be much improved. I also added a 3" fish
eye mirror so I could se behind me withought untold gyrations of body
and taxi direction. I had to tighten the
tailwheel cables and level the wings with a spacer on the LG cross
strut. I also found that starting the engine without
a primer on cool mornings causes blood blisters thrown out backs, sore
muscles and lots of frustration. On the warmer
~70 degree afternoons it is a one to two blade affair.
Another newbie hand propping tip:
Always have your tail tied down before you attempt a start! Lesson
Learned! ( after tailwheel jumped the chocks)
First flights I hope to commence after I get a tailwheel checkout.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Steve,
That tail wheel really gets abused. I didn't realize how much till I
started flying with one. If you can get some time in a cub that would be
great. The lack of forward vis. bothered me more than the differece from
the conventional gear. How much flying time do you have?
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Congratulations Steve E.!
I too had problems with the tailwheel A-frame bending and cured it by
reinforcing the tubes from the apex where the spring rests. This was done
by inserting a tube about 7 inches long in each of the two tubes leading
to the apex of the vee.
You mentioned getting a tailwheel checkout before making the first
flights. I would strongly recommend getting thoroughly familiar with
something like a Piper J-3 or Aeronca Champion to the point of being
comfortable flying from the rear seat where the view ahead is restricted
and one has to look out to the side about 45 degrees off from straight
ahead in order to judge height, etc. Please don't get in a hurry to fly
it and pick your conditions (preferably a grass runway or field headed
directly into the wind) carefully. And don't let anyone persuade or
pressure you into flying it until you are satisfied that you and the
airplane are ready.
Having test flown (first flights) a Druine Turbulent, two Pietenpols
(including my own Piet), my Sperry Messenger Repro. and my Wag Aero
"Wag-a-bond", I have pumped enough adrenalin to realize that one must
not rush into this type of operation. Have done lots of test flying
of light a/c and helicopters over the years where the flying charac-
teristics were known and basically testing was to check function and
rigging, etc. Testing a homebuilt adds another dimension to this pro-
cedure.
If you hate surprises as much as I do, please take your time and have
an uneventful (but thrilling, nonetheless) first flight. As they used
to say in the old days:
Happy landings!
Graham Hansen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
<< If I were to decide on using a Corvair engine for my Piet, is there a
limitation to the actual year Corvair that it has to be? I read that
it was the 1960 model the Mr. Pietenpol used, but is that the ONLY
year that would work? I have found at least 5 engines in good shape
in various places, but they are not all 1960. Some are '64 some '62,
and only a couple are '60.
Richard >>
I am using the PAS convrsion manual and they suggest late model corvairs. I
think they are all somewhat similar. The early models have a little less
power. 90Hp I think. The later are110Hp. Let me know how it goes. The
folks at PAS have replacement cams to lower peal Hp rpms and also cranks,
hubs.....
William Koucky
Traverse City, MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
Sounds good. Where would I go about getting a copy of the PAS
conversion manual?
I found one guy who has 3 corvair engines he'd sell me for $150 for
all. I dont know exactly what condition they are in, but assuming one
running engine could be made from all 3, is this a good deal, or
might there be some safety concerns about 'cheap' engines?
Richard
> I am using the PAS convrsion manual and they suggest late
model corvairs. I
> think they are all somewhat similar. The early models have a little less
> power. 90Hp I think. The later are110Hp. Let me know how it goes. The
> folks at PAS have replacement cams to lower peal Hp rpms and also cranks,
> hubs.....
>
> William Koucky
> Traverse City, MI
>
>
>
> << If I were to decide on using a Corvair engine for my Piet, is
> there a
> limitation to the actual year Corvair that it has to be? I read
> that it was the 1960 model the Mr. Pietenpol used, but is that the
> ONLY year that would work? I have found at least 5 engines in good
> shape in various places, but they are not all 1960. Some are '64
> some '62, and only a couple are '60.
>
> Richard >>
>
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
I forgot to mention Virtual Vairs, the corvair mailing list. Great help!
-William
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Another newbie hand propping tip:
Always have your tail tied down before you attempt a start! Lesson
Learned! ( after tailwheel jumped the chocks)
First flights I hope to commence after I get a tailwheel checkout.
Steve E.
----- End Included Message -----
You learn fast Steve.
Everybody's probably heard of that FAA film of the Cessna 140 that goes
wild with the pilot's panic stricken wife aboard when he tries to hand bomb
it.
Well here's a better one. This story is absolutely 100% true. I was not a
witness but was there for the aftermath:
At the little airport just north of Toronto, Ont. where I used to hang
out about 1978 (King City airport) there were these 5 guys that owned a
beautifully restored Champ. One of the partners went flying and came to the
pumps after to fill up. When he tried to start it up he just switched the
mags on and walked around and started to flip the A65 through. He must'a
primed it too much or something because it wouldn't start. He switched off
the mags and opened the throttle wide and pulled the engine through backwards
to clear it out. He went around and switched the mags back on. Guess what
he forgot?
He has to dive out of the way of the wide open A65, tries to grab the tail,
which knocks him down, and then has to stand and watch his airplane head
off for - yup - the wild blue. It crosses the runway with the tail up and
lifts off - the empty CG on a Champ being just about the same as the CG
with the pilot aboard - in a gently climbing circle. It circled the airport,
climbing to an apex about half way around and then descending
as the bank slowly steepend. It came down not very far from the starting
point in a wing down spiral and cartwheeled itself into a ball. It just
cleared the roof of the Okanagan Helicopters hangar and just missed our
club house when it hit the ground. There was a freeway right next to the
airport also. Strangely, the incident only got a 3-inch-column mention in the
Toronto Star the next day, buried in the back of the paper.
Needless to say the other partners were not impressed by the guy's carelessness.
I have hand bombed lots of airplanes and I would NEVER do it with an unoccupied
airplane without tying the tail or some part of the structure. Standing
behind the propeller to do it isn't good enough either in my opinion. Even
if the throttle is closed, engines have been known to backfire and blow out
the throttle plate, which lets the engine run wide open (that actually happened
to a Stearman once).
John K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
>flights. I would strongly recommend getting thoroughly familiar with
>something like a Piper J-3 or Aeronca Champion
Second's to the congratulations for Steve E. And also for the wise words
from Graham Hansen. Frank Pavliga only let me fly his Piet after I
had a full year flying our Champ. Graham is exactly right- Back seat
of a Cub or Champ on grass is the way to go. Pavement should be
tackled after you have grass mastered. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | bikes and hand-propping |
We were doing our annual two years ago and far across the runway
a pilot pulled his Cub out to prop next to the open hangar. He
chocked the right main but not the left. (and no ropes either)
He propped it from behind and that Cub did a perfect right turn
around the chock and right back inside the hangar. (unoccupied)
It promptly chewed up a bicycle hanging on the side wall and quit.
Whew !
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
<< Sounds good. Where would I go about getting a copy of the PAS
conversion manual?
I found one guy who has 3 corvair engines he'd sell me for $150 for
all. I dont know exactly what condition they are in, but assuming one
running engine could be made from all 3, is this a good deal, or
might there be some safety concerns about 'cheap' engines?
>>
The PAS Manual is $49 from William Wynne. He parted ways with PAS so it is
now called something else. The phone number I have is 904-761-4122. If this
doesn't work let me know. You can tell what kind of engine you have by the
block number. I'll check my block to give you a better location as it is
most likely filled with dirt. The engines they use are 164ci. They also
have a starter that is an option. Weight with starter is about 225lbs.
William
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> If I were to decide on using a Corvair engine for my Piet, is there a
> limitation to the actual year Corvair that it has to be? I read that
> it was the 1960 model the Mr. Pietenpol used, but is that the ONLY
> year that would work? I have found at least 5 engines in good shape
> in various places, but they are not all 1960. Some are '64 some '62,
> and only a couple are '60.
>
> Richard
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Richard,
I see that you have already been pointed to William Wynne for the
Corvair conversion manual. The engine looks beautiful in the color
picture he provides in the info pack, and he removes the cooling fan
(can be retained as an option) for forced air cooling. The Corvair
conversion information from Don Pietenpol indicates that a 164 cubic
inch engine (non-turbo) from 1964 on can be used and the cooling fan is
retained. Lots of Corvair sites on the internet to turn to for support,
and we are planning on using the Corvair on our project,too.
Does anyone know if an engine from a manual or automatic transmission
is preferred, or does it matter?
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
Not to sound completely stupid, but I need it spelled out before I
drive 300 miles and spend $150. Is 1964 (as stated below) the ONLY
year I can use? If not, is there any written documentation that will
tell me EXACTLY which engines I can use?
Thanks much!
Richard
> conversion information from Don Pietenpol indicates that a 164 cubic
> inch engine (non-turbo) from 1964 on can be used and the cooling fan is
> retained. Lots of Corvair sites on the internet to turn to for support,
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Can you please give me more details on the FAA inspection so I know what to
look for when it is time for me in 2+ years?
Thanks Ken
-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
I second the motion most heartily!
> Can you please give me more details on the FAA inspection so I know what to
> look for when it is time for me in 2+ years?
>
> Thanks Ken
>
>
> -
>
>
>
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jimsury(at)fbtc.net (Jim Sury) |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
I like to get mail for this group but getting the same mail 19 times in one
day is unnecessary in my books. Once is enough.
>Richard DeCosta wrote:
>>
>> If I were to decide on using a Corvair engine for my Piet, is there a
>> limitation to the actual year Corvair that it has to be? I read that
>> it was the 1960 model the Mr. Pietenpol used, but is that the ONLY
>> year that would work? I have found at least 5 engines in good shape
>> in various places, but they are not all 1960. Some are '64 some '62,
>> and only a couple are '60.
>>
>> Richard
>> ----------------------------------------
>> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
>> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
>Richard,
> I see that you have already been pointed to William Wynne for the
>Corvair conversion manual. The engine looks beautiful in the color
>picture he provides in the info pack, and he removes the cooling fan
>(can be retained as an option) for forced air cooling. The Corvair
>conversion information from Don Pietenpol indicates that a 164 cubic
>inch engine (non-turbo) from 1964 on can be used and the cooling fan is
>retained. Lots of Corvair sites on the internet to turn to for support,
>and we are planning on using the Corvair on our project,too.
> Does anyone know if an engine from a manual or automatic transmission
>is preferred, or does it matter?
>
>Mike List
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
PAS recommends 1965-1969 110 hp engines. Top case has a 2 diget letter code
behind the oil filler tube. RD, RF, RH, RX and RK are the correct codes for
the above.
william koucky
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet Mailing list |
Time to send this explanation again.
I am dealing with a perpetual growth problem because we are adding about
3,4 names a week to the list. Due to the limitations of this list
engine I am unable to resolve the problem with duplicate messages after
the list grows to more than 40 occupants. Right now I am spoofing the
mailer to think that it has less than 40 members by splitting the list
in two. I just made another split so now we have 3. Currently there
are about 90 members! The only indication that the list needs
splitting, is the multiple message problem. Everyone gets it. If you
want to spare others, email me directly with the notification to
Steve(at)byu.edu
Probably not nessasary, because I love piets as much as anyone and
constantly check my email for activity. Also if you want to get off the
list email the address above and I will drop you. Eventually we will
have to find another home for the list. Anyone with the resources feel
free to drop me a line.
Steve Eldredge
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | More on Certifying Pietenpol NX7229R |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I second the motion most heartily!
>
> > Can you please give me more details on the FAA inspection so I know
> what to
> > look for when it is time for me in 2+ years?
> >
> > Thanks Ken
Well lessee...
I made my first call to the SLC FDSO about 4-5 months ago to find out
what I could about certifying my own plane. I was surprised to find
that they had prepared a packet of information about certifying a
homebuilt and I had it in my hands within a few days. This is something
that you need to get your hands on as soon as you start building. It
contains all sorts of information from building requirements to
applicable FAR's, and AC's *and* all the blank forms that you will
eventually need to get your Registration and N-number for Oklahoma. It
answers a lot of questions. I read throught the stuff several times.
OK now assuming that you have already started building you should be
keeping logs and pictures of your work. The inspector will want to see
evidence that it is truely you who has done the major portions, so put
yourself in the pictures often. I started my log on paper then switched
to taking pictures and posting them on the web. The inspector was
really pleased with my website and I found that he was satisfied with
the documentation of my building with that-- even before he came
down! I called several times in the last few months to clarify how
they wanted things done with items such as the data-plate location,
n-number hight, the NX regs, and other questions on filling out the
paperwork. they were always helpful and quick to respond. I finally
got all my paperwork in order and sent it off. By then I knew who was
in charge of amatuer builts and sent it attention to him. After a few
days my file was created and assigned to an inspector and we set up an
appointment at the airport. I would plan for at least three hours.
Make sure you have a place that is comfortable and has plenty of light
and a table and chairs. You are inviting a guest, so make him/her feel
like one. The inspection can be divided into two parts. The airframe
inspection, and the paperwork verification. The airframe check was more
fun. I got to talk about the plane and answer questions. Make sure you
have the cowl and all acces covers removed. You don't have to cut out
the future use access panels. He checked most things thouroughly
especially control throws, limits, wire tensions, safety wires, stop
nuts, connections, etc. It is important and helpful if you have someone
who knows airplanes to go over your project before hand with a fresh
pair of eyes. I had mine checked three times and the inspector still
found a loose stop nut. (After he left I had someone else check it and
he found one intake manifold nut missing!) Check, double check, triple
ch.... I followed him around and took notes from his comments. He
found about 5 things that he wanted fixed and I added about 5 more in
addition. I was able to fix all of his squaks before he left. It was
stuff like instrument marking fuel type and quantity markings at the
filler cap a couple of safety wire reties, nothing major. Make sure you
have your tools with you and bring a permant marker just in case. DO
your homework. If you have a certified engine and prop you will need it
signed of as having complied with all the AD's. That goes for any
TSO'ed unit or hardware in your plane, ie and ELT. Make sure you have
all your placards in place, or again, have a fresh marker. You will
need your permanat airframe and engine logs to put in the final entries.
Enough rambling, If you have certain questions, please fire them back.
Just a parting comment to sum up. I felt like I was defending a
dissertation in college. Approach your inspection with as much
preparation as you have building each part and you will be ready to pass
with flying colors.
Good Luck,
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
michael list wrote:
> Richard DeCosta wrote:
> >
> > If I were to decide on using a Corvair engine for my Piet, is there a
> > limitation to the actual year Corvair that it has to be? I read that
> > it was the 1960 model the Mr. Pietenpol used, but is that the ONLY
> > year that would work? I have found at least 5 engines in good shape
> > in various places, but they are not all 1960. Some are '64 some '62,
> > and only a couple are '60.
> >
> > Richard
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> Richard,
> I see that you have already been pointed to William Wynne for the
> Corvair conversion manual. The engine looks beautiful in the color
> picture he provides in the info pack, and he removes the cooling fan
> (can be retained as an option) for forced air cooling. The Corvair
> conversion information from Don Pietenpol indicates that a 164 cubic
> inch engine (non-turbo) from 1964 on can be used and the cooling fan is
> retained. Lots of Corvair sites on the internet to turn to for support,
> and we are planning on using the Corvair on our project,too.
> Does anyone know if an engine from a manual or automatic transmission
> is preferred, or does it matter?
>
> Mike List
What did you do I got 22 copys of the message?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Continental Mount |
Does anyone know why the contiental mount shown by Don Pietenpols plans
shows the mount to the engine reamed out to 7/16 when the engine to
mount uses 3/8's bolts?
Brad Schultz
brsch(at)afcon.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Ken,
I just went through the FAA inspection deal about a year ago. It was
really not big deal. I had taken lots of photo's and just glued them in
a spiral notebook with the notes I kept as I went along. Stuff about
when and what I ordered and the hours I worked on the project. I have a
friend that is a A & P so I noted when he checked things for me. The EAA
tech counselor is a better idea though if you can find one. The
inspector I used was not FAA. He is a self employed "designated
airworthness inspector" is the term I think. Anyway he spent very little
time looking at the airplane and records I kept. He spent lots of time
checking the weight and balance info. I think these guy's have a good
idea about our workmanship the first 5 min. If you follow Tony B. books
you will not have any trouble.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
Congrats for the AWC! Now...Flight testing!!!
As a seasoned hand propper, (my Varieze rolled away from me--1/2 mile!), I
can't emphasize safety enough!
1. Always have a helper at the controls, preferably on the
brakes. The helper should be checked out and in direct sight and in
communication
with you. Work out hand signals and explain your wording beforehand.
Rehearse the
litany of starting.
2. Have a checklist for starting. Include flooded engines. Rehearse.
3. Treat your engine and prop like a loaded weapon!
4. Chock your mains, tie down the tail. Return to 1.
My Piet will have a special tail hook and parking brakes. It will allow
me to tie
the tail to a tiedown or fencepost. After I am strapped into the pilot's
seat and ready to
taxi, I will release the tail hook from the cockpit and taxi away. A short
loop of
nylon rope will be left behind.
Why a Piet when I have a EZ? Different mission and another plane
experience to master!
>Huge landmark passed last tuesday as I recieved the Airworthiness
>certificate for my Air Camper.
>
>The process was a real eyeopener because it lasted almost 3 hours. I
>was able to correct all the squaks on site
>Since Tuesday I have been taxi testing and have found that there are
>another batch of things that have to be
>changed. I didn't like the tailwheel setup, and in fact bent the A
>frame on my third startup. I have rebuilt it and
>included the cross member this time. subsequent taxi test show this to
>be much improved. I also added a 3" fish
>eye mirror so I could se behind me withought untold gyrations of body
>and taxi direction. I had to tighten the
>tailwheel cables and level the wings with a spacer on the LG cross
>strut. I also found that starting the engine without
>a primer on cool mornings causes blood blisters thrown out backs, sore
>muscles and lots of frustration. On the warmer
>~70 degree afternoons it is a one to two blade affair.
>
>Another newbie hand propping tip:
>
>Always have your tail tied down before you attempt a start! Lesson
>Learned! ( after tailwheel jumped the chocks)
>
>First flights I hope to commence after I get a tailwheel checkout.
>
>Steve E.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dick Dery <dickdery(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine |
Atnd we are planning on using the Corvair on our project,too.
> Does anyone know if an engine from a manual or automatic transmission
>is preferred, or does it matter?
>
>If you use the manual transmission, you can use the 11/32 bolts that are
mentioned in Pietenpols conversion drawings with the prob hub converter in
the Pietenpol drawings. I don't know what type of bolt the automatic
transmissions use. My source(at The Corvair Underground) told me that they
were totally different, and he did not stock the bolts necessary for the
automatic transmission.
>The PAS manual recommends enlarging the flange threads to 3/8-24 to allow
the use of AN bolts. Clarks Corvair in Massachussetts has these pre-threaded
flanges, according to PAS.
BTW Vitalis Kapler(1033 Forest Hills Dr. SW, Rochester,MN 55902, makes the
prop hub shown in the Piet drawings
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jere Reineberg <ejerer(at)infomagic.com> |
| Subject: | Greetings To All |
I'm a prospective builder seeking to learn all I can about the
Pietenpol, it's construction and flight characteristics.
Regards,
Jere
Flagstaff, AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wright <jwright(at)bcsbel.be.Lucent.com> |
| Subject: | Pietenpols in Belgium? |
Hello everyone!
I'm an American private pilot living in Belgium who really wants to
build/fly my own a Pietenpol Air Camper using a Model A Ford engine,
however, I'm finding that building your own in Belgium isn't quite as
easy as back in the United States.
I have heard that some Piets are being built in the U.K., but from what
I can determine, the Belgian aviation rules are difficult at best for
the homebuilder with homebuilts appearently limited to Belgian airspace
use! There does appear to be an ultra-light following here, and I'm
thinking that I might be able to squeeze a Piet under the weight
restrictions for this category. I have also heard something before
where a person in Denmark was planning on building a Pietenpol using a
BMW motorcycle engine.
I have not had any luck in finding out really where to start. It may be
possible to even build / register the plane in France as homebuilts are
quite popular there. I'm concerned, however, that I many have trouble
getting approval for the Ford engine. In the UK, they seem to have to
use Continental engines for this reason. I would like to find a way to
also meet FAA certification so that I would have no trouble should I
return to the U.S. at some point.
I would really appreciate any advice or help that any of you can give me
in trying to learn how I might proceed with a European based Piet
project, or for that matter regarding any amateur aircraft builders here
in Belgium!
The idea of flying my own Pietenpol around Europe would seem to me -
romance at its best!!
Best regards,
Jim Wright
jgw(at)skynet.be
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | desmo(at)interport.net (Mark Burnham) |
Hello,
Just joined the list and wanted to introduce myself. I just
recently "discovered" Piets, and am currently trying to learn
as much as possible about them. I found Grant's page last week,
which was an eye opener. TONS of great information. I've been
hooked on open-cockpit planes ever since I had a ride in a
Stearman this summer. That was so great! It looks to me like
Piet's have even better visibility because of fewer wings
getting in the way.
I live in New York City, and so building is going to be a challenge.
I figure I can make parts for a while though, and then find more
space when I need it. I'm working on getting my PPL (in a Cub),
and there is hangar space around, but it's pretty expensive.
We'll see. I ordered plans from Don Pietenpol yesterday, so
I should have a much better idea of how possible it's going to
be...
If any of you are near NYC, and would like to show off your
projects, I'd love to come have a look.
Thanks,
- Mark Burnham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wright <jwright(at)bcsbel.be.Lucent.com> |
| Subject: | Pietenpols near Monterey, CA |
Does anyone know of any Piets in the area of Monterey, California. I
will be traveling there on business next week and I would very much like
to see a "Real live Piet"!!
Jim Wright
jgw(at)skynet.be
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Greetings To All |
I have a site that I'm using to keep record of my Piet project you
might want to peek at. I havent recieved my plans yet, so theres not
much progress to report, but I do have 80+ pictures of Piets from all
over.
Richard DeCosta
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/
> I'm a prospective builder seeking to learn all I can about the
> Pietenpol, it's construction and flight characteristics.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jere
> Flagstaff, AZ
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Southwick <ksouth(at)accesscomm.net> |
Richard:
Just took a look at your Piet page. Very nice. Nevermind Piets for a
second, what tool did you use to make the shaddow effect on those fonts.
Kevin
--
Kevin Southwick
ONE WORD COMMUNICATIONS
Online Help & Software User Manuals
Web Page Design
http://users.accesscomm.net/ksouth
(713) 864-6930, fax (713) 864-3056
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Hello,
>I live in New York City, and so building is going to be a challenge.
>I figure I can make parts for a while though, and then find more
>space when I need it.
Mark- Welcome to the list and let me repeat what I tell
everyone:
All you need to build an airplane is a telephone and a credit card !
A really inexpensive way to start and save space is to get the
full size wing rib jig from Don P., build a rib jig, buy some
saran wrap so the glue doesn't stick, get a Wicks Catalog and
order a bunch of (very cheap too) capstrip spruce and some
plywood and brass nails, some glue. You are in business.
A rib every other day and you'll have a wing skeleton in
2 months ! Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
> From: "Alan A. Laudani"
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> Congrats for the AWC! Now...Flight testing!!!
>
> As a seasoned hand propper, (my Varieze rolled away from me--1/2 mile!), I
> can't emphasize safety enough!
> 1. Always have a helper at the controls, preferably on the
> brakes. The helper should be checked out and in direct sight and in
> communication
> with you. Work out hand signals and explain your wording beforehand.
> Rehearse the
> litany of starting.
> 2. Have a checklist for starting. Include flooded engines. Rehearse.
> 3. Treat your engine and prop like a loaded weapon!
> 4. Chock your mains, tie down the tail. Return to 1.
> My Piet will have a special tail hook and parking brakes. It will allow
> me to tie
> the tail to a tiedown or fencepost. After I am strapped into the pilot's
> seat and ready to
> taxi, I will release the tail hook from the cockpit and taxi away. A short
> loop of
> nylon rope will be left behind.
> Why a Piet when I have a EZ? Different mission and another plane
> experience to master!
>
> >Huge landmark passed last tuesday as I recieved the Airworthiness
> >certificate for my Air Camper.
> >
> >The process was a real eyeopener because it lasted almost 3 hours. I
> >was able to correct all the squaks on site
> >Since Tuesday I have been taxi testing and have found that there are
> >another batch of things that have to be
> >changed. I didn't like the tailwheel setup, and in fact bent the A
> >frame on my third startup. I have rebuilt it and
> >included the cross member this time. subsequent taxi test show this to
> >be much improved. I also added a 3" fish
> >eye mirror so I could se behind me withought untold gyrations of body
> >and taxi direction. I had to tighten the
> >tailwheel cables and level the wings with a spacer on the LG cross
> >strut. I also found that starting the engine without
> >a primer on cool mornings causes blood blisters thrown out backs, sore
> >muscles and lots of frustration. On the warmer
> >~70 degree afternoons it is a one to two blade affair.
> >
> >Another newbie hand propping tip:
> >
> >Always have your tail tied down before you attempt a start! Lesson
> >Learned! ( after tailwheel jumped the chocks)
> >
> >First flights I hope to commence after I get a tailwheel checkout.
> >
> >Steve E.
> >
It is really great to hear of New aircraft coming to life. It is
inspirational to us all.
A thought about hand starting, and a reference to the DH Moths again.
The early moths had the mag switches on the outside of the cowling
between the cockpits. Either pilot could reach them as well as ground
crew. If hand proping from the rear of the prop. You could switch off
quickley with out scrambling to reach into the pit. I plan to mount
my switches there.
J Mc
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
>
> A thought about hand starting, and a reference to the DH Moths again.
> The early moths had the mag switches on the outside of the cowling
> between the cockpits. Either pilot could reach them as well as ground
> crew. If hand proping from the rear of the prop. You could switch off
> quickley with out scrambling to reach into the pit. I plan to mount
> my switches there.
>
> J Mc
The only problem is water can get in the switches when it is wet and
cause problems. Anyway if an engine fires up at a high throttle setting
when hand bombing forget about getting anywhere near the mag switches if
it isn't tied down. You'll be too busy trying to save yourself and if
you are behind the propeller you will probably get knocked down before you
can reach them.
On the subject of hand bombing it is important to use the word "contact"
instead of the commonly used "switch on" so that "switch on" and "switch
off" don't get confused. That can cause exciting moments as well.
The best way to tie an airplane like a Piet for starting is to simply attach
a rope to one cabane, around a fence post or through a tie-down ring, and
forward to the other cabane. You can then untie, reel in, and stow the rope
while in the cockpit.
John K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate |
> From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol NX7229R Gains Airworthiness Certificate
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> >
> > A thought about hand starting, and a reference to the DH Moths again.
> > The early moths had the mag switches on the outside of the cowling
> > between the cockpits. Either pilot could reach them as well as ground
> > crew. If hand proping from the rear of the prop. You could switch off
> > quickley with out scrambling to reach into the pit. I plan to mount
> > my switches there.
> >
> > J Mc
>
> The only problem is water can get in the switches when it is wet and
> cause problems. Anyway if an engine fires up at a high throttle setting
> when hand bombing forget about getting anywhere near the mag switches if
> it isn't tied down. You'll be too busy trying to save yourself and if
> you are behind the propeller you will probably get knocked down before you
> can reach them.
>
> On the subject of hand bombing it is important to use the word "contact"
> instead of the commonly used "switch on" so that "switch on" and "switch
> off" don't get confused. That can cause exciting moments as well.
>
> The best way to tie an airplane like a Piet for starting is to simply attach
> a rope to one cabane, around a fence post or through a tie-down ring, and
> forward to the other cabane. You can then untie, reel in, and stow the rope
> while in the cockpit.
>
> John K
OK The water makes sense as to why the switches aren't there
anymore. I agree about tieing the craft down. Or better yet a
COMPETENT pilot in the cockpit as well.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
I've just spoken to a mechanic friend of mine who has SOME
experience, not a lot, with Corvair engines. He related his fear to
me of the engines O0rings leaking oil. Has anyone had any experience
one way or the other wih the O-rings in the Corvair engine? Can it
leak a little through the O-rings and still be safe? Would diligent
mainenence help?
Richarrd
-----------------------------
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
Website Design, Stompilation
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Southwick <ksouth(at)accesscomm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair O-Rings |
I have rebuilt one Corvair engine and more VW engines than I care to
remember. They both have O rings around tubes housing the rocker push
rods. Usually, they do not leak. They are made of a soft neopreme
material. You can apply silicone sealer if you want. But, if the engine
is going to leak, it is usually there or the mail oil seal next to the
flywheel. And both of these engines have a reputation for constant minor
leaking.
Kevin
--
Kevin Southwick
ONE WORD COMMUNICATIONS
Online Help & Software User Manuals
Web Page Design
http://users.accesscomm.net/ksouth
(713) 864-6930, fax (713) 864-3056
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> I've just spoken to a mechanic friend of mine who has SOME
> experience, not a lot, with Corvair engines. He related his fear to
> me of the engines O0rings leaking oil. Has anyone had any experience
> one way or the other wih the O-rings in the Corvair engine? Can it
> leak a little through the O-rings and still be safe? Would diligent
> mainenence help?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
Something just occurred to me whilst pouring over the Piet pictures
on my site. There are lots of pictures of Piets tht are almost
completely assembled, wires and all, but without the covering. Then
there are lots of other pictures which show the individual components
like the wings, fuselage, tail, etc.. being covered _before_ they are
assembled. Is it common to completely assemble a Piet before covering
it? Seems to me like it would be difficult, if not impossible to
cover an assembled aircraft.
Richard
-----------------------------
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
Website Design, Stompilation
________________________________________________________________________________
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> Something just occurred to me whilst pouring over the Piet pictures
> on my site. There are lots of pictures of Piets tht are almost
> completely assembled, wires and all, but without the covering. Then
> there are lots of other pictures which show the individual components
> like the wings, fuselage, tail, etc.. being covered _before_ they are
> assembled. Is it common to completely assemble a Piet before covering
> it? Seems to me like it would be difficult, if not impossible to
> cover an assembled aircraft.
>
> Richard
> -----------------------------
> http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
> Website Design, Stompilation
That's what you've got to do is build the airplane completly so you
know everything works and fits then take it apart, cover it and then do
it all over again. I'am in that process right now with the fuselage.
I'am going to completely finish that before doing the wing. That's
what's nice about the Piet you can build the fuselage and completly
finish it before the wing or the other way around if you want.
Brad Schultz
brsch(at)afcon.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Advisory Circular 20-27D Certification and Operation of Amateur Built Aircraft.
Advisory Circular 90-89 Amateur Built Aircraft Flight Testing Handbook.
To request AC's, Write:
U.S. Dept. of Transportation
Utilization and Storage Section, M443.2
Washington, DC 205590
To be placed on a mailing list for free AC's:
U.S. Dept. of Transportation
Distribution Requirements
Section, M-494.1
Washington, DC 205590
Yes, the bolt diameter for Continental Engine mounting thru the
rubber bushings is 3/8 and the Engine Mount in the Grega Plans is
right-- 3/8" id x 1/2" od x 2" bushing.
________________________________________________________________________________
Brad Schultz wrote:
> Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> > Something just occurred to me whilst pouring over the Piet pictures
> > on my site. There are lots of pictures of Piets tht are almost
> > completely assembled, wires and all, but without the covering. Then
> > there are lots of other pictures which show the individual
> components
> > like the wings, fuselage, tail, etc.. being covered _before_ they
> are
> > assembled. Is it common to completely assemble a Piet before
> covering
> > it? Seems to me like it would be difficult, if not impossible to
> > cover an assembled aircraft.
> >
> > Richard
> > -----------------------------
> > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> > Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
> > Website Design, Stompilation
>
> That's what you've got to do is build the airplane completly so you
> know everything works and fits then take it apart, cover it and then
> do
> it all over again. I'am in that process right now with the fuselage.
> I'am going to completely finish that before doing the wing. That's
> what's nice about the Piet you can build the fuselage and completly
> finish it before the wing or the other way around if you want.
>
> Brad Schultz
> brsch(at)afcon.net
And If you only put it together once before cover you are a better,
more patient builder than I.
Steve (just gotta see how she looks..) E.
________________________________________________________________________________
testing please ignore
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
> From: Steve Eldredge
> Subject: testing
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> testing please ignore
Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
engine/flight testing.
I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like the
Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
and easier to anchor the brake torque.
Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
> Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> engine/flight testing.
>
> I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like the
> Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
>
> J Mc
>
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
> Subject: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing)
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
> Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
>
> > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > engine/flight testing.
> >
> > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like the
> > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> >
> > J Mc
> >
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
>
I have seen several Jenny type Gear that used a small cable Nico
pressed around the landing gear and axle tp prvent just such an
occurance. I also have been considering the clearance if you happened
to land in on of those nice flat grain fields around here....Whhooops
the grop grabbed the spreader bar......
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McNarry, John[SMTP:Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca] |
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 12:43 PM
| Subject: | Re: Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
> Subject: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing)
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
> Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
>
> > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > engine/flight testing.
> >
> > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like
the
> > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> >
> > J Mc
> >
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
>
I have seen several Jenny type Gear that used a small cable Nico
pressed around the landing gear and axle tp prvent just such an
occurance. I also have been considering the clearance if you happened
to land in on of those nice flat grain fields around here....Whhooops
the grop grabbed the spreader bar......
J Mc
This is a real problem with the straight axle. I landed my Flybaby on a
little used grass field once and didn't discover the problem until I
tried to take off. The grass was just high enough that I was barely
able to get up to lift off speed. When I tried to lift off the added
drag and leaving ground effect was enough that it mushed back onto the
ground. I was able to take off by bouncing down the runway so that I
was out of the grass most of the time! I am glad the runway was plenty
long!
Jim Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
One thing I failed to consider in my first post was the height of the
axle above the ground. My Flybaby had 8.00 x 4 tires so the axle was
close to the ground. On a Pietenpol the wheels could be wire wheels
putting the axle much higher off the ground. Still could be a problem
but not nearly so bad.
Jim Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McNarry, John[SMTP:Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca] |
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 12:43 PM
| Subject: | Re: Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
> Subject: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing)
> Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
> I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
> Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
>
> > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > engine/flight testing.
> >
> > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like
the
> > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> >
> > J Mc
> >
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
>
I have seen several Jenny type Gear that used a small cable Nico
pressed around the landing gear and axle tp prvent just such an
occurance. I also have been considering the clearance if you happened
to land in on of those nice flat grain fields around here....Whhooops
the grop grabbed the spreader bar......
J Mc
This is a real problem with the straight axle. I landed my Flybaby on a
little used grass field once and didn't discover the problem until I
tried to take off. The grass was just high enough that I was barely
able to get up to lift off speed. When I tried to lift off the added
drag and leaving ground effect was enough that it mushed back onto the
ground. I was able to take off by bouncing down the runway so that I
was out of the grass most of the time! I am glad the runway was plenty
long!
Jim Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
*I* just wish that I could find a nice grass runway to practice on!
stevee
Jim Skinner wrote:
> One thing I failed to consider in my first post was the height of the
> axle above the ground. My Flybaby had 8.00 x 4 tires so the axle was
> close to the ground. On a Pietenpol the wheels could be wire wheels
> putting the axle much higher off the ground. Still could be a problem
> but not nearly so bad.
>
> Jim Skinner
> ----------
> From: McNarry, John[SMTP:Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 12:43 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing)
>
> > From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
> > Subject: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing)
> > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>
> > I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> > ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had
> the
> > Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> > statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> > those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
> >
> > > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > > engine/flight testing.
> > >
> > > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like
> the
> > > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
>
> > > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> > >
> > > J Mc
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> >
> I have seen several Jenny type Gear that used a small cable Nico
> pressed around the landing gear and axle tp prvent just such an
> occurance. I also have been considering the clearance if you happened
> to land in on of those nice flat grain fields around here....Whhooops
> the grop grabbed the spreader bar......
>
> J Mc
>
> This is a real problem with the straight axle. I landed my Flybaby on
> a little used grass field once and didn't discover the problem until I
> tried to take off. The grass was just high enough that I was barely
> able to get up to lift off speed. When I tried to lift off the added
> drag and leaving ground effect was enough that it mushed back onto the
> ground. I was able to take off by bouncing down the runway so that I
> was out of the grass most of the time! I am glad the runway was
> plenty long!
>
> Jim Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | RE: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
Thanks Jim
That's what I had been wondering about. The Tall split
gear probably makes the most sense from a safety point of view.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
> Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
>
> > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > engine/flight testing.
> >
> > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like the
> > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> >
> > J Mc
> >
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Doesn't the "Cub" style gear use "bungee" rings...? I guess you could
get a failure whether you wind em yourself or purchase a "ring"? Just a
thought...
Gary...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
Yippee! My spruce tree finally grew! Went down to Aircraft Spruce and
picked up my rib capstrip and plywood. Time to make some ribs! Wife
also said OK to new scroll saw. Another yippee!
On a safety note, any airplane using bungee cords as shock absorbers
should have a safety cable to prevent collapse of the gear if the bungee
gives way.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
> Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
>
> > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > engine/flight testing.
> >
> > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like the
> > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> >
> > J Mc
> >
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Doesn't the "Cub" style gear use "bungee" rings...? I guess you could
get a failure whether you wind em yourself or purchase a "ring"? Just a
thought...
Gary...
I suppose that's true. Any type of gear will require some sort of
limit stop to prevent the wheel from binding against the structure
and become a brake.
I would be interested in hearing from those of us who have flown with
the different styles of landing gear. There preferences and comments
as to handling. Is the staight axle more stable? Does the split gear
roll to the outside of a swerve making a ground loop more probable?
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
| Subject: | Cub style gear/bungee failures (personal experience) |
Yes, bungee failures do happen. Oil from the engine doesn't help and
covers are available to keep the oil off of them. A limit bolt or cable
is REQUIRED! If you do go this route, I would suggest not running the
bungee struts to the opposite side of the fuselage. This creates a very
flat triangle when the bungee is stretched on a hard landing. Making a
yoke so that both sides can be anchored to the yoke on the centerline of
the fuselage is MUCH stronger. I know this from experience. Was a
passenger in a Piet with this type of gear landing in a strong
crosswind. The plane bounced and weathervaned into the wind. The cable
used for the throttle was a stranded cable (like a motorcycle throttle
cable) but under compression. (We did not build the plane and were
unaware of this item at the time) The cable colapsed when the pilot
tried to open the throttle. The plane came down slightly tipped to one
side. That side gear stretched the limit bolt enough to pop over
center. The wheel ended up resting against the wing strut and the prop
tips plowed the turf. A number of people came out and held up that side
to roll the plane off the runway. Partway back someone pushed on the
wheel and it popped back down into it's normal position! We were then
able to put the full weight of the airplane on the gear. Repairs
included switching to the yoke type gear attachment, replacing the
throttle cable with a solid wire, and prop repairs. It is hard to say
what might have happened if the gear had held up. The damage could
easily have been worse. I always suspected that tighter limit stops
(allowing less travel) MIGHT have helped the gear problem but the yoke
is even better.
Was also in this plane when a bungee broke during low speed taxi. I
forget if it was before or after the previous incident (I was just a kid
at the time). No problem as the limit bolt kept the prop from hitting
the ground. Some heavy rope around the bungee horns got us home.
Another thing people use are die springs instead of bungee cords. They
are in compression so the stop is not an extra item. And a little oil
isn't a problem - just prevents rust. Drag is less too, but probably
isn't a concern in a Piet. :)
Jim Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary McArthur[SMTP:garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com] |
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 1997 4:24 PM
| Subject: | Re: Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> I still don't know what exactly happened, but the Piet I saw that
> ended up upside-down on the runway due to broken landing gear had the
> Jenny-style gear (bungee snapped, but why...?). Anyone have any
> statistics? I have to decide on gear myself one of these days (if
> those darn plans ever get here... [grumble]).
>
> > Aw shucks. I was hoping someone out there was reporting on
> > engine/flight testing.
> >
> > I still haven't been able to choose a landing gear. I really like
the
> > Jenny style but I think the split gear as on G_BUCO would be safer
> > and easier to anchor the brake torque.
> > Any preferences comments or ideas appreciated.
> >
> > J Mc
> >
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Doesn't the "Cub" style gear use "bungee" rings...? I guess you could
get a failure whether you wind em yourself or purchase a "ring"? Just a
thought...
Gary...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BPA Newsletter |
>Anyone know when we are supposed to recieve the next news letter?
>
>Seems like it has been a long time.
>
>Steve e.
>
>
Steve finally got mine yesterday
Barry Davis
near Atlanta
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cub style gear/bungee failures (personal experience) |
Jim Skinner wrote:
>Yes, bungee failures do happen. Oil from the engine doesn't help and
covers are available to keep the oil
>off of them. A limit bolt or cable is REQUIRED!
Heartily agree.
>
>If you do go this route, I would suggest not running the
>bungee struts to the opposite side of the fuselage. This creates a
very flat triangle when the bungee is
>stretched on a hard landing. Making a yoke so that both sides
can be anchored to the yoke on the
>centerline of the fuselage is MUCH stronger.
Not sure I agree with the implication here.
I know of one Air Camper that just tested the gear to destruction, (two
weeks ago) and it had the Vee frame as yoiu describe, and
everyone there suggested going to the cross version. (not sure I agree
here either, see final comments) Same arrival sequense BTW ie bounce,
second arrival at obtuse angle, gear gives way, wing tip, prop, and gear
damage.
> I know this from experience. Was a passenger in a Piet with
>this type of gear landing in a strong crosswind. The plane bounced and
weathervaned into the wind. The
>cable used for the throttle was a stranded cable (like a motorcycle
throttle cable) but under compression.
>(We did not build the plane and were unaware of this item at the time)
The cable colapsed when the pilot
>tried to open the throttle. The plane came down slightly tipped to one
side. That side gear stretched the
>limit bolt enough to pop over center.
I cant picture what this means or how it would happen. IN both split
gear setups with or without the Vee, the bungee struts
need to have limits. the travel is only about 3 inches on each strut.
I have secured mine with 1/8" ss cable looped around the
bungee wrap tubes. My guide tube (the one that slides inside the struts
to keep both alligned) allows much more travel (9 inches).
> The wheel ended up resting against the wing strut and the prop tips
>plowed the turf. A number of people came out and held up that side to
roll the plane off the runway.
>Partway back someone pushed on the wheel and it popped back down into
it's normal position! We were then
>able to put the full weight of the airplane on the gear. Repairs
included switching to the yoke type gear
>attachment, replacing the throttle cable with a solid wire, and prop
repairs. It is hard to say what might
>have happened if the gear had held up. The damage could easily have
been worse. I always suspected that
>tighter limit stops (allowing less travel) MIGHT have helped the gear
problem but the yoke is even better.
FINAL COMMENTS
After seeing the damage to the gear and inspecting the failed
connection, I discovered that the gear strut end bolt sleeve was only
spot welded and the force of the side load caused the metal to tear
through. The bungee hit the limit cable and the strut failed. The
solution in Jimmy's story was a tighter limit stop/cable (as he
suggests) The solution in my story is/was a properly welded strut
sleeve. Now to my point. I think that although the vee frame/yoke may
provide greater strength, it also adds additional weight and complexity
of fabrication over the striaght cross shock struts which provide more
than adequate strength.
Besides I think the straight cross struts look better. :)
Steve (As-you-please) e.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Testing 3rd branch |
I guess I'll add something of interest to this test post.
did more taxi testing my plane over the weekend. Weather here in Utah
is still pretty good. Highs in the 50 and low 60's.
I have finished reading two really good books on flying.
The Compleat Taildragger Pilot is an excellent book on tailwheel
procedures. About 200 pages full of really usefull information and
explanations.
I also read
Stick and Rudder. Another excellent book written in the 40's, describes
flying in airplanes like the Pietenpol in depth. Includes diagrams and
explains the real art of flying.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
>I would be interested in hearing from those of us who have flown with
>the different styles of landing gear. There preferences and comments
>as to handling. Is the staight axle more stable? Does the split gear
>roll to the outside of a swerve making a ground loop more probable?
>
>J Mc
John- I don't have a ton of Piet time, but the Cub type lands easier
on pavement than the straight axel gear. Little more cush. Also w/
the straight gear you can wrap and re-wrap the bungee chords until
you get the right amount of give. Too loose and the wind can
tip you side to side too much, too tight and the tires and airframe
take bigger jolts. There is no alignment issue w/ the straight gear
like you have when you weld up the split gear. It's true from wheel
to wheel right away. I hear from those much wiser that a plane
with wheels pointed in different directions can make it a whole
different animal. Hopefully others w/ more experience will
comment. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The tree grew! |
michael list wrote:
> Yippee! My spruce tree finally grew! Went down to Aircraft Spruce
> and
> picked up my rib capstrip and plywood. Time to make some ribs! Wife
> also said OK to new scroll saw. Another yippee!
>
Mike. I have a scroll saw, didn't use it much. If I were doing it
again I would buy a power chop saw.I used a radial arm saw with good
results, however a chop saw such as a makita or something would be much
faster and use up much less space.
Stevee
> On a safety note, any airplane using bungee cords as shock absorbers
> should have a safety cable to prevent collapse of the gear if the
> bungee
> gives way.
I used the split gear with 1/8" 7X7 stainless cable loops.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
. There is no alignment issue w/ the straight gear
> like you have when you weld up the split gear. It's true from wheel
> to wheel right away. I hear from those much wiser that a plane
> with wheels pointed in different directions can make it a whole
> different animal. Hopefully others w/ more experience will
> comment. Mike C.
>
>
Taildraggers should be aligned straight or should have a little bit of
toe out (a couple of degrees). If they are toed in they get really
squirrely.
I landed the Piet I rode in from the front seat that had the solid axle
gear and about the only difference I could tell was the lack of rolling
friction from the big motorcycle wheels. It was on grass.
John K
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The tree grew! |
I did all my cutting on a 10 inch bench saw, using a 95$ 200 tooth plywood
plainer blade used exclusively for spruce only. This has done all the cuts
in the plane without any problems. For the wing rib pieces I carefully
made a master set of carefully fitted pieces, and then painted them red. I
took an old road sign that was thick aluminum and made up a sliding table
jig similar to what was seen in one of the old articles in the BPA news.
directly to the cutting jig. This allowed me to make all rib pieces in 3
days (1250 pieces) All angles fit when they were put together. Total cost
for the jig was about $2.00 for some small screws and $18.00 for the
protractor. When doing the sides, I laid out the full scale version on two
3/4 inch plywood sheets on the floor and used the protractor and jig to get
exact cuts. If I had to build another plain, I would use the same
procedure. Any questions, give me a hollar!
Good building,
-=Ian=-
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 13:58 PM
>
> michael list wrote:
>
> > Yippee! My spruce tree finally grew! Went down to Aircraft Spruce
> > and
> > picked up my rib capstrip and plywood. Time to make some ribs! Wife
> > also said OK to new scroll saw. Another yippee!
> >
>
> Mike. I have a scroll saw, didn't use it much. If I were doing it
> again I would buy a power chop saw.I used a radial arm saw with good
> results, however a chop saw such as a makita or something would be much
> faster and use up much less space.
>
> Stevee
>
>
>
> > On a safety note, any airplane using bungee cords as shock absorbers
> > should have a safety cable to prevent collapse of the gear if the
> > bungee
> > gives way.
>
> I used the split gear with 1/8" 7X7 stainless cable loops.
>
> Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
Please ignore
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
I think that I favor the split gear because of the greater potential
cushoning effect. How do people build their split gear?
It occurs to me that I could weld the Vs, them temporarily mount them to
the fuselage (or a jig), then slide the two axels over the ends of a long
pipe to insure they are parallel, then tack the assembly into position.
Remove the pipe and: TaDa! parallel axels.
I'm a beginning builder and not an experienced metal worker so I don't have
a lot of confidence in this idea, but it does sound reasonable. :-)
Randy Stockberger
>
>>I would be interested in hearing from those of us who have flown with
>>the different styles of landing gear. There preferences and comments
>>as to handling. Is the staight axle more stable? Does the split gear
>>roll to the outside of a swerve making a ground loop more probable?
>>
>>J Mc
>
>John- I don't have a ton of Piet time, but the Cub type lands easier
>on pavement than the straight axel gear. Little more cush. Also w/
>the straight gear you can wrap and re-wrap the bungee chords until
>you get the right amount of give. Too loose and the wind can
>tip you side to side too much, too tight and the tires and airframe
>take bigger jolts. There is no alignment issue w/ the straight gear
>like you have when you weld up the split gear. It's true from wheel
>to wheel right away. I hear from those much wiser that a plane
>with wheels pointed in different directions can make it a whole
>different animal. Hopefully others w/ more experience will
>comment. Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear (WAS: RE: Testing) |
John Kahn wrote:
>
> . There is no alignment issue w/ the straight gear
> > like you have when you weld up the split gear. It's true from wheel
> > to wheel right away. I hear from those much wiser that a plane
> > with wheels pointed in different directions can make it a whole
> > different animal. Hopefully others w/ more experience will
> > comment. Mike C.
> >
> >
> Taildraggers should be aligned straight or should have a little bit of
> toe out (a couple of degrees). If they are toed in they get really
> squirrely.
>
> I landed the Piet I rode in from the front seat that had the solid axle
> gear and about the only difference I could tell was the lack of rolling
> friction from the big motorcycle wheels. It was on grass.
>
> John K
no comment on the gear John, just wanted you to know that I'm on the
Internet now at home. When would you like to come over for a visit.
Domenic
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The tree grew! |
Ian,
When you say bench saw is that the same as a portable table saw? I want to
make sure I get the right tools. Also, I'm not sure I know what a plainer
blade is. Is it just a smooth cutting blade? Sorry to ask such simple
questions.
Thanks,
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Holland
Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 1:25 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The tree grew!
>I did all my cutting on a 10 inch bench saw, using a 95$ 200 tooth plywood
>plainer blade used exclusively for spruce only. This has done all the cuts
>in the plane without any problems. For the wing rib pieces I carefully
>made a master set of carefully fitted pieces, and then painted them red. I
>took an old road sign that was thick aluminum and made up a sliding table
>jig similar to what was seen in one of the old articles in the BPA news.
>From these masters, I used an adjustable protractor to transfer the angles
>directly to the cutting jig. This allowed me to make all rib pieces in 3
>days (1250 pieces) All angles fit when they were put together. Total cost
>for the jig was about $2.00 for some small screws and $18.00 for the
>protractor. When doing the sides, I laid out the full scale version on two
>3/4 inch plywood sheets on the floor and used the protractor and jig to get
>exact cuts. If I had to build another plain, I would use the same
>procedure. Any questions, give me a hollar!
>Good building,
>-=Ian=-
>> From: Steve Eldredge
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
>> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 13:58 PM
>>
>> michael list wrote:
>>
>> > Yippee! My spruce tree finally grew! Went down to Aircraft Spruce
>> > and
>> > picked up my rib capstrip and plywood. Time to make some ribs! Wife
>> > also said OK to new scroll saw. Another yippee!
>> >
>>
>> Mike. I have a scroll saw, didn't use it much. If I were doing it
>> again I would buy a power chop saw.I used a radial arm saw with good
>> results, however a chop saw such as a makita or something would be much
>> faster and use up much less space.
>>
>> Stevee
>>
>>
>>
>> > On a safety note, any airplane using bungee cords as shock absorbers
>> > should have a safety cable to prevent collapse of the gear if the
>> > bungee
>> > gives way.
>>
>> I used the split gear with 1/8" 7X7 stainless cable loops.
>>
>> Stevee
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The tree grew! |
The bench saw was out of Sears and is a portable unit that you can wheel
around the workplace easily. The planer blade is a thin kerf saw (stepped
down) for about 2 inches. It gives a satin smooth finish that needs no
planing. The blade is ridgid enough that there is no wobble. I can't read
the specs on it other than it has 200 teeth. after doing the whole plane,
it is still extremely sharp. However, it does not see plywood or other
dulling substances. I used another blade to cut the plywood gussets, and
used a scroll saw for a lot of the gusset work. I also have a small band
saw which was used to cut the slots in the capstrip bending jig. The band
saw was the least used tool and I have two comments on that tool. 1. don't
bother! 2. If you must, don't get a cheap one!
-=Ian=-
> From: Brent Reed
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
> Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 10:11 AM
>
> Ian,
> When you say bench saw is that the same as a portable table saw? I want
to
> make sure I get the right tools. Also, I'm not sure I know what a
plainer
> blade is. Is it just a smooth cutting blade? Sorry to ask such simple
> questions.
>
> Thanks,
> Brent Reed
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Holland
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 1:25 PM
> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
>
>
>
> >I did all my cutting on a 10 inch bench saw, using a 95$ 200 tooth
plywood
> >plainer blade used exclusively for spruce only. This has done all the
cuts
> >in the plane without any problems. For the wing rib pieces I carefully
> >made a master set of carefully fitted pieces, and then painted them red.
I
> >took an old road sign that was thick aluminum and made up a sliding
table
> >jig similar to what was seen in one of the old articles in the BPA news.
> >From these masters, I used an adjustable protractor to transfer the
angles
> >directly to the cutting jig. This allowed me to make all rib pieces in 3
> >days (1250 pieces) All angles fit when they were put together. Total
cost
> >for the jig was about $2.00 for some small screws and $18.00 for the
> >protractor. When doing the sides, I laid out the full scale version on
two
> >3/4 inch plywood sheets on the floor and used the protractor and jig to
get
> >exact cuts. If I had to build another plain, I would use the same
> >procedure. Any questions, give me a hollar!
> >Good building,
> >-=Ian=-
> >> From: Steve Eldredge
> >> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> >> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
> >> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 13:58 PM
> >>
> >> michael list wrote:
> >>
> >> > Yippee! My spruce tree finally grew! Went down to Aircraft Spruce
> >> > and
> >> > picked up my rib capstrip and plywood. Time to make some ribs!
Wife
> >> > also said OK to new scroll saw. Another yippee!
> >> >
> >>
> >> Mike. I have a scroll saw, didn't use it much. If I were doing it
> >> again I would buy a power chop saw.I used a radial arm saw with good
> >> results, however a chop saw such as a makita or something would be
much
> >> faster and use up much less space.
> >>
> >> Stevee
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On a safety note, any airplane using bungee cords as shock absorbers
> >> > should have a safety cable to prevent collapse of the gear if the
> >> > bungee
> >> > gives way.
> >>
> >> I used the split gear with 1/8" 7X7 stainless cable loops.
> >>
> >> Stevee
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
Thanks, Steve and Ian, for the tips on what tools were most handy for
your projects. Helps keep things inside that imaginary budget!
Just got the BPA newsletter last night, wife says it is just as bad as
when Sport Aviation and the Experimenter arrive on the same day! Caught
her reading it too, though!
Last few weeks we had Lancaster air races and Edwards AFB open house,
not a single Piet flew in for display. Have to do something about
that. Did get to watch and hear an SR-71 at Mach 3, as much as you can
see a dark airplane at umpteen thousand feet. Airshow season over, time
to build!
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)aurean.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: The tree grew! |
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Ian Holland wrote:
> The bench saw was out of Sears and is a portable unit that you can wheel
> around the workplace easily. The planer blade is a thin kerf saw (stepped
> down) for about 2 inches. It gives a satin smooth finish that needs no
> planing. The blade is ridgid enough that there is no wobble. I can't read
> the specs on it other than it has 200 teeth. after doing the whole plane,
> it is still extremely sharp. However, it does not see plywood or other
> dulling substances. I used another blade to cut the plywood gussets, and
> used a scroll saw for a lot of the gusset work. I also have a small band
> saw which was used to cut the slots in the capstrip bending jig. The band
> saw was the least used tool and I have two comments on that tool. 1. don't
> bother! 2. If you must, don't get a cheap one!
> -=Ian=-
>
Since I'm not building a Piet (I know, shame on me;-), this may not be
quite as applicable as with a steel tube frame like mine. However, I've
found that the bandsaw has been invaluable in the shop. I bought a Sears
tilt-head, two speed bandsaw a couple of years ago. The tilting head
allows for a huge table area compared to other band saws and the 2 speed
pylleys allow a metal cutting blade to be used. Most of the fittings on
my Christavia were cut with this saw. The slow speed is still a little
high for metal cutting but it just means buying a couple of more blades.
Just my $0.02
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cub style gear/bungee failures (personal experience) |
Thanks to all those who replied to my inquiry about landing gear. It
really helps to hear from those who have been there and done that.
Could one of you explain why a taildragger would be more docile with
a little toe out. If I am going to the trouble of trying to make the
split gear, might as well get the alignment right!
Thanks J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing Gear Toes |
> . There is no alignment issue w/ the straight gear
> > like you have when you weld up the split gear. It's true from wheel
>
> > to wheel right away. I hear from those much wiser that a plane
> > with wheels pointed in different directions can make it a whole
> > different animal. Hopefully others w/ more experience will
> > comment. Mike C.
> >
> >
> Taildraggers should be aligned straight or should have a little bit of
>
> toe out (a couple of degrees). If they are toed in they get really
> squirrely.
This is correct. The reason is in toed in conditions it is very easy
for the toed in wheel (either if both are toed in) to quickly *very*
quickly steer the airplane in to a turn. One may reason well duh,
wouldn't a toe out condition cause a turn as well? the answer is YES.
The difference is that a toe in turn will tighten because more and more
weight will be place on the toed in wheel until you are tied into a
ground loop, folding the gear in the process. Toe out will have the
opposite effect thus decreasing -to a degree- the tendancy of the tail
to swap ends. I know of a Champ that had a real bad habit of
groundlooping to one side --enough that the pilot-- nor anyone else
would fly it It was sold in this condition as a lost cause. Before
flying the new owner blocked, and dropped a plumb bobed the gear and
found that one wheel had toe in of 2-3 degrees on one side and 2-3
degrees toe out on the other! In addition the toe out side was a couple
of inches displaced to the rear. After a repair the the plane flew,
well, like a CHAMP.
No Really!
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The tree grew! |
Excellent response! Thank you.
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Holland
Date: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 8:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The tree grew!
>The bench saw was out of Sears and is a portable unit that you can wheel
>around the workplace easily. The planer blade is a thin kerf saw (stepped
>down) for about 2 inches. It gives a satin smooth finish that needs no
>planing. The blade is ridgid enough that there is no wobble. I can't read
>the specs on it other than it has 200 teeth. after doing the whole plane,
>it is still extremely sharp. However, it does not see plywood or other
>dulling substances. I used another blade to cut the plywood gussets, and
>used a scroll saw for a lot of the gusset work. I also have a small band
>saw which was used to cut the slots in the capstrip bending jig. The band
>saw was the least used tool and I have two comments on that tool. 1. don't
>bother! 2. If you must, don't get a cheap one!
>-=Ian=-
>
>----------
>> From: Brent Reed
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
>> Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 10:11 AM
>>
>> Ian,
>> When you say bench saw is that the same as a portable table saw? I want
>to
>> make sure I get the right tools. Also, I'm not sure I know what a
>plainer
>> blade is. Is it just a smooth cutting blade? Sorry to ask such simple
>> questions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brent Reed
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ian Holland
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 1:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
>>
>>
>>
>> >I did all my cutting on a 10 inch bench saw, using a 95$ 200 tooth
>plywood
>> >plainer blade used exclusively for spruce only. This has done all the
>cuts
>> >in the plane without any problems. For the wing rib pieces I carefully
>> >made a master set of carefully fitted pieces, and then painted them red.
>I
>> >took an old road sign that was thick aluminum and made up a sliding
>table
>> >jig similar to what was seen in one of the old articles in the BPA news.
>> >From these masters, I used an adjustable protractor to transfer the
>angles
>> >directly to the cutting jig. This allowed me to make all rib pieces in 3
>> >days (1250 pieces) All angles fit when they were put together. Total
>cost
>> >for the jig was about $2.00 for some small screws and $18.00 for the
>> >protractor. When doing the sides, I laid out the full scale version on
>two
>> >3/4 inch plywood sheets on the floor and used the protractor and jig to
>get
>> >exact cuts. If I had to build another plain, I would use the same
>> >procedure. Any questions, give me a hollar!
>> >Good building,
>> >-=Ian=-
>> >> From: Steve Eldredge
>> >> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> >> Subject: Re: The tree grew!
>> >> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 13:58 PM
>> >>
>> >> michael list wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Yippee! My spruce tree finally grew! Went down to Aircraft Spruce
>> >> > and
>> >> > picked up my rib capstrip and plywood. Time to make some ribs!
>Wife
>> >> > also said OK to new scroll saw. Another yippee!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Mike. I have a scroll saw, didn't use it much. If I were doing it
>> >> again I would buy a power chop saw.I used a radial arm saw with good
>> >> results, however a chop saw such as a makita or something would be
>much
>> >> faster and use up much less space.
>> >>
>> >> Stevee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On a safety note, any airplane using bungee cords as shock absorbers
>> >> > should have a safety cable to prevent collapse of the gear if the
>> >> > bungee
>> >> > gives way.
>> >>
>> >> I used the split gear with 1/8" 7X7 stainless cable loops.
>> >>
>> >> Stevee
>> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Toes |
> >
> > Taildraggers should be aligned straight or should have a little bit of
> >
> > toe out (a couple of degrees). If they are toed in they get really
> > squirrely.
>
> This is correct. The reason is in toed in conditions it is very easy
> for the toed in wheel (either if both are toed in) to quickly *very*
> quickly steer the airplane in to a turn. One may reason well duh,
> wouldn't a toe out condition cause a turn as well? the answer is YES.
> The difference is that a toe in turn will tighten because more and more
> weight will be place on the toed in wheel until you are tied into a
> ground loop, folding the gear in the process. Toe out will have the
> opposite effect thus decreasing -to a degree- the tendancy of the tail
> to swap ends. I know of a Champ that had a real bad habit of
> groundlooping to one side --enough that the pilot-- nor anyone else
> would fly it It was sold in this condition as a lost cause. Before
> flying the new owner blocked, and dropped a plumb bobed the gear and
> found that one wheel had toe in of 2-3 degrees on one side and 2-3
> degrees toe out on the other! In addition the toe out side was a couple
> of inches displaced to the rear. After a repair the the plane flew,
> well, like a CHAMP.
>
> No Really!
>
> Steve E.
>
>
Exactly how I would have explained it mon ami. I know of a similar
case involving a Smith Miniplane who's owners all thought it's evil handling
was mysteriously cursed by an evil runway handling spirit. When I mentioned
the probablility of toe in being the cause of the problems they had
already sold it...D'oh!
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Toes |
How does one go about measuring toe in or toe out?
William
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Toes |
Wkoucky(at)aol.com wrote:
> How does one go about measuring toe in or toe out?
>
> William
It really isnt that hard but you need a flat surface.
Chalk a line and line up the fuse's longitudinal (sp) axis exactly with
the line. Raise the tail to flying attitude. I used seams in the
hanger floor. Use another seam or chalk another line perpendicular to
the first and push the plane up so the gear sits on that line. If one
wheel gets there before the other this is your first clue that something
is amiss. Strap a piece of angle iron, very straight board etc to the
wheel hub on each side. The line the boards create represents the
rolling direction of the gear. This line can be measured with reference
to the longitudinal axis of the fuse to find the angle of toe in or toe
out. Fixing a problem needn't be too dificult either. build it on a
jig and you will be straight to begin with, but if not I have known an
avid builder who just stuck a piece of thick wall tubing into the axle
and gently but firmly tweeked the correct amount of adjustment in by
hand.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Toes |
>How does one go about measuring toe in or toe out?
>
>William
>
One way to do it is:
First put the wheels off the ground so you can turn them and draw a line in
the center (sometimes the tire is not mounted centered on the rim), then put
the plane in the floor and move it a little back and forth so they (tires)
are in their normal position.
messure the distance betwn the lines in the front and in the back from tire
to tire. The diference will be the toe-in (or toe-out).
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Toes |
There's a good, basic article on wheel alignment in Tony Bingelis' book, The
Sportplane Builder. He discusses camber and toe-in/out in a way that us
novices can understand. His alignment technique looks practical. The
Sportplane Builder is available from EAA....everyone should have a copy by
the workbench!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Toes |
<< There's a good, basic article on wheel alignment in Tony Bingelis' book,
The
Sportplane Builder. He discusses camber and toe-in/out in a way that us
novices can understand. His alignment technique looks practical. The
Sportplane Builder is available from EAA....everyone should have a copy by
the workbench!
>>
I have the book but didn't realize the toe in-out question was in there.
Thanks.
william
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
I've just put 11 new pics on my Piet site. Thanks to those who have
email them to me! New pictures are marked with a *
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | scherer2(at)airmail.net (Glenn Scherer) |
Hello to all. Steve told me I should post an intro, so here it is. My
name is Glenn Scherer, I live in north central Texas, NE of Dallas.
Although I won't start pilot training until sometime this spring, I
have already decided that I want to build an airplane for
reacreational flying. The Piet appeals to me for several reasons, not
least of which is that it's still being built and flown after sixty
years.
I would like to solicit this group's opinion on how suitable this
plane is for a low-time pilot. Is it a forgiving design to fly, or
should I expect to build up a lot of hours in more suitable designs?
TIA, Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intro (Low time pilot question) |
I think the Pietenpol is very easy to fly for a tail dragger. My dad taught
me to fly his. I flew from the front seat at first and after I got the hang
of it we switched places. I forget exactly how long it took but it wasn't
very long, not more than 5 hours. I only had about 20 hours of instruction
at the time, all in tri gear planes. I was signed off to solo the piet
while I was still a student pilot. The hardest part was finding an
instructor that was experienced with tail draggers. The person who flew
with me and signed me off had lots of tail dragger time but none in a
Pietenpol. We put off the flight several times due to cross winds, etc.
The instructor was not completely comfortable flying for the first time in
an unfamiliar airplane in less than ideal conditions. Since he had put me
off several times, he finally said that he would fly with me if I was
comfortable with the conditions. There was a steady cross wind of about 10
miles per hour. We made the flight and everything went fine.
I suggest getting a few hours dual in a Pietenpol if possible. If not, then
a couple of hours in something like a Champ would probably be enough. If
you have to teach yourself the Pietenpol, then approach it VERY slowly.
Start with very low speed taxi. Increase speeds slightly when you are
completely comfortable with the handling. Keep increasing the speed until
you are comfortable with high speed, tail up runs. Eventually you will be
ready to fly. Do things at first in calm air (little or no wind). Wait for
good days if you need to. Don't rush it! Be careful you don't get too much
speed, I ended up flying once before I wanted to (in a Flybaby). Lesson
learned: double check airspeed indicator operation!
I wouldn't advise test flying your own Pietenpol without a little more
experience, or at least flying in another one to know how it should handle.
Hope this is helpful. In all cases the choice is up to you, of course. But
this is how I would approach it.
Jim
>Hello to all. Steve told me I should post an intro, so here it is. My
>name is Glenn Scherer, I live in north central Texas, NE of Dallas.
>Although I won't start pilot training until sometime this spring, I
>have already decided that I want to build an airplane for
>reacreational flying. The Piet appeals to me for several reasons, not
>least of which is that it's still being built and flown after sixty
>years.
>
>I would like to solicit this group's opinion on how suitable this
>plane is for a low-time pilot. Is it a forgiving design to fly, or
>should I expect to build up a lot of hours in more suitable designs?
>
>TIA, Glenn
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I met with a guy today that built a prize winning air camper. I went to
see his pictures, jigs, and other goodies. We talked about wood for my
project and said he had done a lot of study on the topic. He said for cost
saving reasons molding grade Hemlock is a good choice (among others). I am
seriously considering this option. I would hope some of you would have some
input on this. Any advice or info?
Thanks,
Brent Reed
Kent, WA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug huntPreferred Customer <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group with
peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with microsoft
mail,hope it works.
What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair power
with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a fuel
tank.
Thanks for now Doug Hunt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey) |
doug huntPreferred Customer wrote:
>
> Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group with
> peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
> group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with microsoft
> mail,hope it works.
>
> What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
> type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair power
> with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a fuel
> tank.
>
> Thanks for now Doug Hunt
With regard to fuel safe resins, I would talk with the vendors most of
them have a tech-support line. I have found them very helpful.
TTYL Bob Bailey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
> From: Robert M. Bailey
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: fuel tanks
> Date: Sunday, November 09, 1997 3:55 PM
>
> doug huntPreferred Customer wrote:
> >
> > Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group
with
> > peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
> > group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with
microsoft
> > mail,hope it works.
> >
> > What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
> > type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair
power
> > with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a
fuel
> > tank.
> >
> > Thanks for now Doug Hunt
> With regard to fuel safe resins, I would talk with the vendors most of
> them have a tech-support line. I have found them very helpful.
> TTYL Bob Bailey
>
Thanks for the tip Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
Jim Sury wrote:
>
> I thought someone might like to see my plane.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
Looks great Jim, I enjoyed your photo.
Domenico/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wood selection |
Brent Reed wrote:
>
> I met with a guy today that built a prize winning air camper. I went to
> see his pictures, jigs, and other goodies. We talked about wood for my
> project and said he had done a lot of study on the topic. He said for cost
> saving reasons molding grade Hemlock is a good choice (among others). I am
> seriously considering this option. I would hope some of you would have some
> input on this. Any advice or info?
>
> Thanks,
> Brent Reed
> Kent, WA.
Brent,
I have a copy of an April 1969 Sport Aviation article and interview with
Bernie Pietenpol where he stated he was using eastern hemlock in his
latest ship. Spars were laminated 3/4 square stock hemlock. Back in
1969 you could probably get better quality wood than today, so be picky
when sorting through some lumber. When I get back from my trip to Utah
I'll dig up my old wooden aircraft design manual to compare the physical
properties of eastern hemlock to sitka spruce and douglas fir.
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
Jim Sury wrote:
>
> I thought someone might like to see my plane.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
Jim,
It's a shame to cover up all that beautiful work with fabric! Very
nice!
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wood selection |
Thanks Mike, I appreciate the response. I'll look forward to the other
info!
-----Original Message-----
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Date: Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:42 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood selection
>Brent Reed wrote:
>>
>> I met with a guy today that built a prize winning air camper. I went to
>> see his pictures, jigs, and other goodies. We talked about wood for my
>> project and said he had done a lot of study on the topic. He said for
cost
>> saving reasons molding grade Hemlock is a good choice (among others). I
am
>> seriously considering this option. I would hope some of you would have
some
>> input on this. Any advice or info?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brent Reed
>> Kent, WA.
>Brent,
>I have a copy of an April 1969 Sport Aviation article and interview with
>Bernie Pietenpol where he stated he was using eastern hemlock in his
>latest ship. Spars were laminated 3/4 square stock hemlock. Back in
>1969 you could probably get better quality wood than today, so be picky
>when sorting through some lumber. When I get back from my trip to Utah
>I'll dig up my old wooden aircraft design manual to compare the physical
>properties of eastern hemlock to sitka spruce and douglas fir.
>Mike List
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
doug huntPreferred Customer wrote:
>
> Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group with
> peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
> group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with microsoft
> mail,hope it works.
>
> What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
> type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair power
> with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a fuel
> tank.
>
> Thanks for now Doug Hunt
Hi Doug, Looks like you got through.
Either metal or fiberglass will work for a nose tank. Both have been
used sucessfuuly. Your choice. I don't have any experience with
fiberglass but I believe Brian Kenny has and I think he used polyester.
Tom Bowdler is also using a nose tank. He used galvanized steel and had
it soldered. My engine is also a corvair, but Iremoved the mech. pump.
Since I've used the center section (3 piece wing), There is plenty of
flow if you use 3/8" OD aluminum fuel line. I measured the flow with the
tail 3 feet below the ground level to simulate take-of attitute at 2Min.
and 18 seconds. In Canada you must have a minimum of 24 Imperial Gal.
flow in above attitude.
Regards, Domenico/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
doug huntPreferred Customer wrote:
>
> Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group with
> peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
> group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with microsoft
> mail,hope it works.
>
> What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
> type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair power
> with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a fuel
> tank.
>
> Thanks for now Doug Hunt
Doug, Just realized your address has VE6zh, Is that your HAM radio call
sign?
Regards,Domenico/VE3SNV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Wood selection |
________________________________________________________________________________
I met with a guy today that built a prize winning air camper. I went to
see his pictures, jigs, and other goodies. We talked about wood for my
project and said he had done a lot of study on the topic. He said for cost
saving reasons molding grade Hemlock is a good choice (among others). I am
seriously considering this option. I would hope some of you would have some
input on this. Any advice or info?
Thanks,
Brent Reed
Kent, WA.
Any of us interested in the wood we build with would do well to look
up a book in the Library " Understanding Wood" by R.Bruce Hoadley.
Taunton Press 1980. I found the book well written in terms easy to
understand.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
Can anyone give me a good reason to build the three piece wing if I
don't ever have any intention of hauling the plane on a trailer? That's
probably the sure way to get it damaged is by some idiot in a car on the
freeway.
Brad Schultz
brsch(at)afcon.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
Brad Schultz wrote:
>
> Can anyone give me a good reason to build the three piece wing if I
> don't ever have any intention of hauling the plane on a trailer? That's
> probably the sure way to get it damaged is by some idiot in a car on the
> freeway.
>
> Brad Schultz
> brsch(at)afcon.com
Hi Brad,
I chose the three piece wing and built it as such for ease of Assembly,
you can do it yourself; for ease of transport, you don't need a 30 foot
trailer. And who can plan so far into the future as never having
intensions of trailering. What if you have a mishap in some far away
field and can't fly out. The 3 piece wing is slightly heavier, but I
think well worth the effort.
Regards,
Domenico/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
> From: dcsBell(at)netcom.ca
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: fuel tanks
> Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 11:23 AM
>
> doug huntPreferred Customer wrote:
> >
> > Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group
with
> > peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
> > group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with
microsoft
> > mail,hope it works.
> >
> > What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
> > type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair
power
> > with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a
fuel
> > tank.
> >
> > Thanks for now Doug Hunt
> Doug, Just realized your address has VE6zh, Is that your HAM radio call
> sign?
> Regards,Domenico/VE3SNV
Thanks for the reply Domenico,looks like this email program is
working fine.
Yes this is my Ham Radio callsign,easy for me to remember HI HI.
I wonder what you are using for intake system on your
corvair,original carbs is what i will be trying,with carb heat box under
engine. Is your Piet flying???
Just sent for the precover paperwork on my Piet.---Another
question,what is
the position of your landing gear relative to the leading edge of your
wing?
Would be interested to hear what the performance of your corvair is like
etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
Doug Hunt wrote:
>
> ----------
> > From: dcsBell(at)netcom.ca
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Subject: Re: fuel tanks
> > Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 11:23 AM
> >
> > doug huntPreferred Customer wrote:
> > >
> > > Have beeen sending messages for 2.5 weeks with no reply to the group
> with
> > > peg.mail.Do not see any of the messages on my incoming mail from the
> > > group,but see all other traffic.This message is being sent with
> microsoft
> > > mail,hope it works.
> > >
> > > What are most builders using for nose tanks.ie. fiberglass etc. what
> > > type or resin for auto fuel that may contain alcohol etc???(corvair
> power
> > > with fuel pump)Want to use center section for storage rather than a
> fuel
> > > tank.
> > >
> > > Thanks for now Doug Hunt
> > Doug, Just realized your address has VE6zh, Is that your HAM radio call
> > sign?
> > Regards,Domenico/VE3SNV
> Thanks for the reply Domenico,looks like this email program is
> working fine.
> Yes this is my Ham Radio callsign,easy for me to remember HI HI.
> I wonder what you are using for intake system on your
> corvair,original carbs is what i will be trying,with carb heat box under
> engine. Is your Piet flying???
> Just sent for the precover paperwork on my Piet.---Another
> question,what is
> the position of your landing gear relative to the leading edge of your
> wing?
> Would be interested to hear what the performance of your corvair is like
> etc.
Hi Doug,
Think twice about using original carbs, which would be sticking out into
the cold slip-stream. I'm not sure but you may encounter some icing
problems. I'm using a stromberg carb off an 85 Continental. It's about
the size to use since at 2800 RPM the engine H.P. will be about 83.5.
My intake (with lots of help from Jack Watson, another builder) consists
of a couple of brass tubes (sink...P-tubes) avail. from the Home depot,
an aluminum 'Y', a couple of 90 degree electrical thinwalled conduit
tubes and a couple of 90 degree elbows. A bracket holds the carb. and
connects to the oil pan (2 exixting pan screws on each side). The
'P-tubes are soldered together so that the 1st curve of the 'p' comes
out of the carb./bracket and the 2nd changes direction to aft and up.
Then the 'Y' is put in place. The thin walled conduit is fitted to the
'Y' with conduit connectors(screwed and epoxied in place), then the 90
degree elbows are welded to the conduitand screwed down to the intake
where the original carbs were. This also helps to keep the frontal
profile down. It's the shortest distance posible if an aircraft carb. is
used and placed under the engine for safety. This way if you get gas
overflow it will drip down
into the cowl and out the bottom instead of posibly causing a fire. Both
Jack and I have not used the original cooling fan. A presurized cowl
should work nicely if made properly. It's not like we have desert
temperatures here in Canada. The only time you would need to worry about
engine overheating is when the ambient temp. is so high that the
existing cooling fins cannot disapate enough heat. That is the spread
between the engine temp. and pressurized ambient air. Are you also on
the Internet? I'm not flying yet, but I will be in the Spring.
Regards, Domenico (VE3SNV)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
Was looking through the November 1996 Sport pilot magazine last night,and
noticed an article on the piper Cub 1937-47.The technical data shows 4 to 5
degrees TOW IN.
Doug..
________________________________________________________________________________
Brad Schultz wrote:
> Can anyone give me a good reason to build the three piece wing if I
> don't ever have any intention of hauling the plane on a trailer?
> That's
> probably the sure way to get it damaged is by some idiot in a car on
> the
> freeway.
>
> Brad Schultz
> brsch(at)afcon.com
Sure.
You have as single car garage of 12 by 20 feet.
: )
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
On two occasions in the last 7 years I have experienced damage to the Piet
while far from home (broken landing gear and splintered prop from rough field
and a ditch). Both times I was easily able to remove the wings and to
transport the aircraft in a U-Haul. Once repaired, reassembly was
straightforward. With the exception of lifting it into the truck, I was able
to perform all of the work alone.
Jim Malley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Can anyone give me a good reason to build the three piece wing if I
>don't ever have any intention of hauling the plane on a trailer?
Brad- Here's my take on the advantages of the 3pc wing:
1) Involves no splicing of wood spars.
2) Requires 1/2 the space to build and store-lengthwise.
3) Panels can be moved, flipped, etc. by you only- never have to ask for
help-until after cover.
4) Two sawhorses and you are in business. No need to build a 30' long table.
5) If you scrape a wingtip someday you only have to rebuild one panel.
6) My friends wife, Kathy Meyers hurt her shoulder and neck helping flip
Earl's 1 pce wing
last year. (and to boot she won't get a ride because it is a single
seat Scout)
7) You can incorporate a little diehedral if you like.
8) The weight issue of the center section is a factor, but many are built
like that with
overall low empty weights. (The center section won't make your plane a
hog.)
9) You can rig the entire airplane outside with no help. I did it.
10)Off field landing someday ?? Maybe it will have to come apart to get
home easily.
11)A whole Piet can be stored easily in a single car garage with the 3pc
wing. Ask Steve E.
These are the neatest airplanes, Mike C>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> >Can anyone give me a good reason to build the three piece wing if I
> >don't ever have any intention of hauling the plane on a trailer?
>
> Brad- Here's my take on the advantages of the 3pc wing:
> 1) Involves no splicing of wood spars.
> 2) Requires 1/2 the space to build and store-lengthwise.
> 3) Panels can be moved, flipped, etc. by you only- never have to ask for
> help-until after cover.
> 4) Two sawhorses and you are in business. No need to build a 30' long table.
> 5) If you scrape a wingtip someday you only have to rebuild one panel.
> 6) My friends wife, Kathy Meyers hurt her shoulder and neck helping flip
> Earl's 1 pce wing
> last year. (and to boot she won't get a ride because it is a single
> seat Scout)
> 7) You can incorporate a little diehedral if you like.
> 8) The weight issue of the center section is a factor, but many are built
> like that with
> overall low empty weights. (The center section won't make your plane a
> hog.)
> 9) You can rig the entire airplane outside with no help. I did it.
> 10)Off field landing someday ?? Maybe it will have to come apart to get
> home easily.
> 11)A whole Piet can be stored easily in a single car garage with the 3pc
> wing. Ask Steve E.
>
> These are the neatest airplanes, Mike C>
I certainly agree with all of the above. Go for it, be sensible not
nostalgic. Domenico
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks to all who replied about the 3 piece wing. You've convinced me.
Now who's plans Gary Price or Val Kaplers? I have Prices and have never
seen Kaplers. I'am going with an 85 Continental so the weight isn't
that big of deal.
Brad Schultz
brsch(at)afcon.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Now that we have that out of the way...who has the good drawings for the
three piece wing. I have the Grega drawings, but I wonder if there is a
better, or at least an alternate set someone would recommend.
Thanx, Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
> From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Wing
> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 1997 11:50 PM
>
> Now that we have that out of the way...who has the good drawings for the
> three piece wing. I have the Grega drawings, but I wonder if there is a
> better, or at least an alternate set someone would recommend.
> Thanx, Don
Don..i got my 3 piece drawings from Don Pietenpol at 1604 Meadow Circle SE.
Rochester MN 55904-5251 3 years ago they sold for $12 US
I also have the Grega version drawings but his fittings are way to heavy
for a Piet.
.....Doug.....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Now that we have that out of the way...who has the good drawings for the
>three piece wing. I have the Grega drawings, but I wonder if there is a
>better, or at least an alternate set someone would recommend.
>Thanx, Don
>
Don- Grant MacLaren's homepage for Piets shows Vi Kapler's address
somewhere for the
3 pce wing. Gary Price of Yesterday's Wings (also found on the BPAN page)
has plans
too...I think a 'no-gap' type design.
One thing newer Piet folks should be aware of is that the Grega design does
not allow you
to shift the wing fore and aft to adjust your CG as does the Piet wing.
That's why the Piet
can accommodate so many different powerplants. (and various pilot weights)
In the Grega you have to shift CG in some other fashion, ie lengthening or
shortening
the motor mount, ballast, .... Mike C .
________________________________________________________________________________
I obtained bothh the Grega plans and the plans from Don Pietenpol including
the 3 piece wing suppliment. I am very happy with the package supplied by
Don and elected to build from those. If any one wants an unused Grega set,
give me a call. First $20 US gets them. I am fitting the spars to the
center section now, and everything is going well. It is staight forward,
relatively simple, and fits.
> From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Wing
> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 1997 22:12 PM
>
>
>
> ----------
> > From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Subject: Re: Wing
> > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 1997 11:50 PM
> >
> > Now that we have that out of the way...who has the good drawings for
the
> > three piece wing. I have the Grega drawings, but I wonder if there is
a
> > better, or at least an alternate set someone would recommend.
> > Thanx, Don
>
>
> Don..i got my 3 piece drawings from Don Pietenpol at 1604 Meadow Circle
SE.
> Rochester MN 55904-5251 3 years ago they sold for $12 US
> I also have the Grega version drawings but his fittings are way to
heavy
> for a Piet.
>
> .....Doug.....
________________________________________________________________________________
I found this on the net and just about died laughing.
Steve.
Flying Collies
Maybe Ben isn't the world's oldest pilot, but he could be from the looks
of him. Ben is 74 years old, and looks about 140. He's
thin, walks with a limp and a slump, has bad teeth, and can't hear very
well. But behind the stick of his Piper Super Cub and
he becomes a teenaged fighter pilot.
Ben keeps his airplane at my airport. It's a 1944 model, white Piper
with an 85 horsepower engine. It's fully aerobatic - a really nice
airplane. And Ben can make it do things god didn't intend for airplanes
to do. Like fly backwards.
Ben, I swear, has a deathwish. If there's a storm front coming, you can
count on Ben to show up at the airport to fly. I've seen him fly
directly into a pitch black squall line, tornado warning sirens blaring.
His little plane can take off in almost no runway distance, at about 50
miles an hour. So, if the wind is blowing over 50, he CAN actually fly
backwards. I've seen him do it on several occasions.
Ben always shows up at the airport with his two collies. One is an old
female, and the other a young cocky male. As you might have read
in a previous posting, I like the female, but hate the male. He has no
respect for me, and he fights with my dogs Skipper and Bucky.
Anyway, Ben shows up at the airport and takes these two dogs for a ride.
They hate it. He has to physically pick them up and stuff them
into the back seat of his little tandem-seated plane. He takes them up
one at a time. The first one gets about a 10 minute ride, while the
second stays up longer.
One day Ben made an abrupt bank to the left. The door wasn't fully
latched, and it swung open. The dog in the rear seat tumbled out, but
Ben was quick enough to grab the poor creature by the nape of the neck
before it fell to what would have been certain death.
However, Ben wasn't strong enough to pull the dog back in. So, he flew
around the airport, flying with his left hand while hanging on to this
dog dangling out the door, flapping in 60 mile-per- hour wind, trying to
decide what to do next.
He decided the best thing to do would be to find a pond, fly low and
slow, and drop the dog into it. At least that way the dog would have
a fighting chance. However, he couldn't find a pond before his strength
gave out in his right hand.
At the last minute, in a desperate move to save the dog, Ben dove and
jerked his airplane to the left. The dog swung up, slammed against
the bottom of the right wing, and fell back into the airplane.
About once a month someone will drop by the airport and ask about Ben's
plane. "Is it for sale?" they'll ask. No, it's not for sale. At any
price. With Ben's deathwish, I'm sure that airplane will never be for
sale. One day I'm going to have to drive my tractor out to the end of
that runway and scrape it up - what's left - airplane, collie, Ben, and
all.
I hope it's the male.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AirCampr(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Two questions... |
I got my plans in the mail a few days ago, and was under the impression that
the plans would include how to carve your own propellor. They don't. Can
someone tell me where to find this info, as the official info kit/mini-catalog
does not mention carving a prop.
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
> From: AirCampr(at)aol.com
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Two questions...
> Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 5:39 PM
>
> I got my plans in the mail a few days ago, and was under the impression
that
> the plans would include how to carve your own propellor. They don't. Can
> someone tell me where to find this info, as the official info
kit/mini-catalog
> does not mention carving a prop.
>
> Richard
Warp Drive will do it for you,and the first one should do it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
What is Warp Drive? I would like to carve my prop too. Craig Aho did it
and he said it took him about 45 hours. His first try and it came out fine.
Has anyone else carved one? How long did it take and how did it go?
Thanks,
Brent Reed
Kent WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 8:58 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Two questions...
>
>
>----------
>> From: AirCampr(at)aol.com
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: Two questions...
>> Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 5:39 PM
>>
>> I got my plans in the mail a few days ago, and was under the impression
>that
>> the plans would include how to carve your own propellor. They don't. Can
>> someone tell me where to find this info, as the official info
>kit/mini-catalog
>> does not mention carving a prop.
>>
>> Richard
>Warp Drive will do it for you,and the first one should do it.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
Richard,
Sport Aviation Magazine, from EAA lists propeller carving in the classified
section at the end of each issue. Eric Clutton, who I think lives in
Tennessee, has a little book on carving your own propeller. If you have a
Kitplanes issue with the aircraft directory, December or January issue, I
think, look for Eric as the designer of a plane called "Fred." That stands
for Flying, Roadable something-or-other. It''s a good book with just the
right amount of theory and practical information. Good luck!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
Orrin Hoopman who is in Austin, MN and sells the original plans to the Piet also
sells a plan to carve a prop for the Model A. Maybe that's what you were
thinking. If you want his address let me know and I will dig it up. Think he
charges six bucks.
AirCampr(at)aol.com wrote:
> I got my plans in the mail a few days ago, and was under the impression that
> the plans would include how to carve your own propellor. They don't. Can
> someone tell me where to find this info, as the official info kit/mini-catalog
> does not mention carving a prop.
>
> Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
Thats good to know, but I am about 99% sure I will be using a Corvair
engine. Now what? :)
Thanks
Richard
> Orrin Hoopman who is in Austin, MN and sells the original plans to the Piet also
> sells a plan to carve a prop for the Model A. Maybe that's what you were
> thinking. If you want his address let me know and I will dig it up. Think he
> charges six bucks.
>
> AirCampr(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > I got my plans in the mail a few days ago, and was under the impression that
> > the plans would include how to carve your own propellor. They don't. Can
> > someone tell me where to find this info, as the official info kit/mini-catalog
> > does not mention carving a prop.
> >
> > Richard
>
>
>
>
-----------------------------
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
Website Design, Stompilation
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
> From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Two questions...
> Date: Sunday, November 16, 1997 1:55 PM
>
> Thats good to know, but I am about 99% sure I will be using a Corvair
> engine. Now what? :)
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard
>
> > Orrin Hoopman who is in Austin, MN and sells the original plans to the
Piet also
> > sells a plan to carve a prop for the Model A. Maybe that's what you
were
> > thinking. If you want his address let me know and I will dig it up.
Think he
> > charges six bucks.
> >
> > AirCampr(at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > I got my plans in the mail a few days ago, and was under the
impression that
> > > the plans would include how to carve your own propellor. They don't.
Can
> > > someone tell me where to find this info, as the official info
kit/mini-catalog
> > > does not mention carving a prop.
> > >
> > > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> -----------------------------
> http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> Pietenpols, Electronic Music,
> Website Design, Stompilation
If you are going to use the corvair engine,i would consider using an
adjustable prop such as the "WARP DRIVE" carbon fiber unit .That way you
will buy 1 prop,and it can be adjusted to allow max per.of your engine.If
you buy a fixed pitch prop and it loads the engine to heavy,you hang it on
the wall and buy another prop,no economy their!.....Doug.....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Strength of Various Woods |
Hello Brent!
As promised I dug out my copy of ANC-18 Design of Wood Aircraft
Structures, 2nd ed. 1951, which is 234 pages of wonderful details on
wooden aircraft construction methods. This manual was put together for
joint Air Force, Navy and Civil use. I'll provide some basic numbers
comparing Sitka Spruce, Douglas Fir and Western Hemlock based on a
typical 15% moisture content from Table 2-6, p. 22.
Density (lb/cu ft) Spruce 28
Fiber Stress at Fir 5,900
proportional limit Hemlock 6,200
(psi)
Compression parallel Spruce 3,530
to grain fiber stress Fir 4,220
at proportional limit Hemlock 4,080
(psi)
parallel to grain Fir 950
Tension strength Spruce 9,400
parallel to grain Fir 10,900
So what does all this mean? There are other physical properties in
ANC-18, but I think these are enough to show that the hemlock, properly
selected for quality and adhering to the standard grain runout of no
more than 1 inch in 12 (preferrably 1 in 15), is an acceptable
substitute for spruce in the Air Camper. The Air Camper is a pretty
conservative design and is not intended for aerobatics, so the hemlock
should provide you with the robustness Bernie Pietenpol intended. You
might want to make up some small test samples of your wood to pull and
bend with your adhesive of choice for your own peace of mind and the FAA
inspector.
In case you were wondering, I am a design engineer for the Lockheed
Skunk Works. Just so you knew the data didn't just come off the
street. Hope this helps.
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Strength of Various Woods |
Your the man, Mike! Great info! Just so I'm clear, grain run out of less
than 1 in 12 would mean that as it runs lengthwise it is going to one side
of my board less that one inch for every 12. Is that right?
I found Hemlock at Home Depot. It's graded C or better. If I select
straight grain (as above) knot free 1"x 6" for my ribs am I choosing wisely?
This group is invaluable! Thanks.
Brent Reed
Kent WA
-----Original Message-----
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Date: Sunday, November 16, 1997 11:06 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Strength of Various Woods
>Hello Brent!
>As promised I dug out my copy of ANC-18 Design of Wood Aircraft
>Structures, 2nd ed. 1951, which is 234 pages of wonderful details on
>wooden aircraft construction methods. This manual was put together for
>joint Air Force, Navy and Civil use. I'll provide some basic numbers
>comparing Sitka Spruce, Douglas Fir and Western Hemlock based on a
>typical 15% moisture content from Table 2-6, p. 22.
> Density (lb/cu ft) Spruce 28
> Fir 33
> Hemlock 30
>
> Static Bending Spruce 5,300
> Fiber Stress at Fir 5,900
> proportional limit Hemlock 6,200
> (psi)
>
> Compression parallel Spruce 3,530
> to grain fiber stress Fir 4,220
> at proportional limit Hemlock 4,080
> (psi)
>
> Shear strength Spruce 990
> parallel to grain Fir 950
> (psi) Hemlock 860
>
> Tension strength Spruce 9,400
> parallel to grain Fir 10,900
> (psi) Hemlock 11,000
>
>So what does all this mean? There are other physical properties in
>ANC-18, but I think these are enough to show that the hemlock, properly
>selected for quality and adhering to the standard grain runout of no
>more than 1 inch in 12 (preferrably 1 in 15), is an acceptable
>substitute for spruce in the Air Camper. The Air Camper is a pretty
>conservative design and is not intended for aerobatics, so the hemlock
>should provide you with the robustness Bernie Pietenpol intended. You
>might want to make up some small test samples of your wood to pull and
>bend with your adhesive of choice for your own peace of mind and the FAA
>inspector.
>
>In case you were wondering, I am a design engineer for the Lockheed
>Skunk Works. Just so you knew the data didn't just come off the
>street. Hope this helps.
>Mike List
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... -Reply |
>>> Doug Hunt 11/16/97 06:46pm >>>
If you are going to use the corvair engine,i would consider using an
adjustable prop such as the "WARP DRIVE" carbon fiber unit .That way
you
will buy 1 prop,and it can be adjusted to allow max per.of your engine.If
you buy a fixed pitch prop and it loads the engine to heavy,you hang it on
the wall and buy another prop,no economy their!.....Doug.....
"Prop Making for the Amateur" by Eric Clutton, available from the EAA for
about 7 dollars, shows how to make props including how to re-adjust the
pitch after the prop has been carved.
A good book for anyone's library even if you don't intend to carve your
own.
Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | More on alternate woods |
Glad the info on spruce, fir and hemlock helps, Brent. You are correct
in your understanding of the grain run-out. 1 inch in 15 would be even
better than 1 in 12, especially if it is for a larger beam (such as a
spar or longeron) that has to be scarfed together. Other criteria
should be 6 to 8 annular rings per inch when you look at the end of your
1 x 6 and an absence of pitch pockets, knots, etc. Also look for signs
of fracture or compression damage from rough handling. I have some fir
that I picked up about 10 years ago that is beautiful with perfect
grain, but today I cannnot find that same quality from the same
sources. Another source for good wood is the wooden boat building
community. There are a lot more people building wooden boats than
airplanes, and if you pick up a magazine called WoodenBoat you will see
some wood suppliers that can provide some high quality material.
The Experimental Aircraft Association has several books and videos
available for wood aircraft construction. Here are a couple:
EAA Aircraft Wood Building Techniques
Tony Bingelis has a four book set available from EAA, they are all good
to have. For now you would probably find these two more valuable:
None of those prices includes shipping. You can reach the EAA at
1-800-843-3612. Some chat group members can probably comment on these
and other useful books and videos.
Glad to help, especially if it means we all build safer airplanes.
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... -Reply |
Greg Cardinal wrote:
> >>> Doug Hunt 11/16/97 06:46pm >>>
>
> If you are going to use the corvair engine,i would consider using an
> adjustable prop such as the "WARP DRIVE" carbon fiber unit .That way
> you
> will buy 1 prop,and it can be adjusted to allow max per.of your
> engine.If
> you buy a fixed pitch prop and it loads the engine to heavy,you hang
> it on
> the wall and buy another prop,no economy their!.....Doug.....
>
> "Prop Making for the Amateur" by Eric Clutton, available from the EAA
> for
> about 7 dollars, shows how to make props including how to re-adjust
> the
> pitch after the prop has been carved.
> A good book for anyone's library even if you don't intend to carve
> your
> own.
>
> Greg Cardinal
Glad to see this recommendation. I am this very day gluing up blanks of
alder for a second prop for a friends subaru powered piet. (Maybe one
day I will be pursuaded to explain why this is the second prop.)
Carving a prop isn't difficult, the first one will take 30-40 hours but
the second will take about 10. The above recommended book is a good
one. It will teach you how to determine lengths and pitches for
particular power, rpm, airspeed, and thrust. With the cost of
experimental props such as one by Warp Drive or Warnke (I'd guess they
charge $400-$700) a total materials cost to build your own of about $80
*is* IMHO economical.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Anyone out there know what the gross wt. of a Piet is ?
Someone asked me and I couldn't give a correct ans.
Mike C. Don't we need this for the FAA Wt. & Bal. data ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Strength of Various Woods |
Brent Reed wrote:
> Your the man, Mike! Great info! Just so I'm clear, grain run out of
> less
> than 1 in 12 would mean that as it runs lengthwise it is going to one
> side
> of my board less that one inch for every 12. Is that right?
>
> I found Hemlock at Home Depot. It's graded C or better. If I select
> straight grain (as above) knot free 1"x 6" for my ribs am I choosing
> wisely?
>
> This group is invaluable! Thanks.
>
> Brent Reed
> Kent WA
Just one thing that might not be so obvious about grain run out. You
must make sure that the you take into consideration the combined
*angular* runout on both faces so that it is not more than 1 in 12.
Sometimes you will have adequate runout specs on the face of the board
only to be countered by unacceptable runout on the edge. I think the
formula for determining the sum of both sides is A squared plus B
squared = C squared (this is just off the top of my head so may not be
right) Granted however, if most boards are really straight on the face
(mine was 1 in 40 or 50") you will be fine.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Anyone out there know what the gross wt. of a Piet is ?
Someone asked me and I couldn't give a correct ans.
Mike C. Don't we need this for the FAA Wt. & Bal. data ?
The 1934 plans say 1080 lbs. But I've always wondered how Bernie
arrived at that figure.
J Mc:-/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Model A engine questions |
It looks like the restoration of our Pietenpol has had a few surprises for
us as far as the engine is concerned; there is a bit more wear and tear
than first anticipated. Oh well...
Can anyone tell me what the standard cylinder bore size for a Ford Model A
engine is?
How many over bore sizes?
What is the clearance between piston and bore?
Thanks,
J. Sunlin
Sun Microsystems Inc.
Web Marketing Group
email: jay@pooh-bah.eng.sun.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
I have a photo copy of a wieght and balance report for a Canadian
Piet,indicating 1150 lbs gross.
The Grega plans show 1129 lbs.
In Canada chapter 549 allows 13 lbs per square foot wing loading with out
flaps.Don't know what the U.S. regs are.
A piet with a 140 sq. ft. wing at 1150 is around 8 lbs.per.sq.ft.
Hope this helps you out.
Doug..
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi, I'm new to the list. ...haven't committed to building, yet but have
been seriously studing the Piet and trying to decide wheather or not to
take the plunge.
I was at Broadhead, breifly this year and got some nice pictures. I'm
learning to acetylene weld and learn about wood. (welding seems less
complicated :-) Input for newbie appreciated. Thanks
Bobby White. N.W. Ar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
Hello to other Piet fans. I am new to the chat group and I am ready to
begin my Piet project. I got my plans from Don P. and I am going to build
the wood version. This brings me to the question of the day.
I would like some different feed back on wood used in the piet. I have
heard builders use everything from top quality aircraft spruce to douglas
fir out of the local lumber yard. Obviously nothing is to good when it
comes to your life. Also bare in mind that I do wood working for a living
and just picked up 850 bd ft. of # 1 & better Stika Spruce at the local
lumber yard for $100. (he said he couldn't get rid of it -go figuare!)
phil peck
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: My question about Ford Model A |
Yesterday I asked about the standard bore sizes, etc. for the model A engine
belonging to our Pietenpol. I haven't heard back anything, so... does anyone
know where such information can be obtained? There doesn't seem to be any
specifications anywhere on the Web.
Thanks again,
J. Sunlin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: My question about Ford Model A |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re: My question about Ford Model A |
Yesterday I asked about the standard bore sizes, etc. for the model A engine
belonging to our Pietenpol. I haven't heard back anything, so... does anyone
know where such information can be obtained? There doesn't seem to be any
specifications anywhere on the Web.
Thanks again,
J. Sunlin
Hi
Some where in my piles of stuff I have all the dimensions for Ford A
listed. I went through the original Ford sevice bulletins and wrote
down all the specs when I did my engine.
The Original pistons were fit with a clearance of 0.002", these were
split skirt pistons. Most replacement pistons are "cam ground and the
fit should match the Piston suppliers specs. Stock Ford pistons where
supplied at 0.005" 0.010" 0.020" 0.030" oversizes. It is not uncommon
to find engines bored out as far as 0.100" It is usually best to
find the pistons first and have your engine builder bore your block
to match. I'll keep looking for my spec sheet and when I find it
I'll post it to the disscussion group.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
Where's this lumberyard??
> Hello to other Piet fans. I am new to the chat group and I am ready to
> begin my Piet project. I got my plans from Don P. and I am going to build
> the wood version. This brings me to the question of the day.
> I would like some different feed back on wood used in the piet. I have
> heard builders use everything from top quality aircraft spruce to douglas
> fir out of the local lumber yard. Obviously nothing is to good when it
> comes to your life. Also bare in mind that I do wood working for a living
> and just picked up 850 bd ft. of # 1 & better Stika Spruce at the local
> lumber yard for $100. (he said he couldn't get rid of it -go figuare!)
> phil peck
>
>
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com> |
| Subject: | RE: My question about Ford Model A |
I have a friend who collects cars. He has a few Model As, I'll ask him
if he knows.
Carl J. Hixon
Project Engineer_______________________
Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544
Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com
On Wednesday, November 19, 1997 9:03 AM, jay@hsmpk12a-s2.Eng.Sun.COM
[SMTP:jay@hsmpk12a-s2.Eng.Sun.COM] wrote:
> Yesterday I asked about the standard bore sizes, etc. for the model A
engine
> belonging to our Pietenpol. I haven't heard back anything, so... does
anyone
> know where such information can be obtained? There doesn't seem to be
any
> specifications anywhere on the Web.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> J. Sunlin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: My question about Ford Model A |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re: My question about Ford Model A |
Yesterday I asked about the standard bore sizes, etc. for the model A engine
belonging to our Pietenpol. I haven't heard back anything, so... does anyone
know where such information can be obtained? There doesn't seem to be any
specifications anywhere on the Web.
Thanks again,
J. Sunlin
> Just looked in a Dykes Automobile Encyclopedia. Bore size is 3.875".
Stroke is 4.000". Displacement 200.5 cu.in. .
Cylinder offset 0.125".
Compression ratio 4.22:1
40 brake hp @2200 rpm. Peak torque 128 ft/lbs @1000 rpm.
Camshaft lift 0.302". Valve lift 0.287". Seat angle 45degrees.
Spring pressure 36 lbs. Tappet clearance 0.010" min. max 0.013 cold.
Valve timing: Intake opens @7 1/2 BTDC closes@ 48 1/2 ABDC
Piston weight with rings and pin 1lb 8 3/4 oz.
Ring gap 0.011" to 0.013" for top ring. 0.009" to 0.011" for the
middle ring. and 0.007" to 0.009" for the bottom ring.
Wrist pin clearance 0.0005" Rod clearance 0.002" 0.008" to 0.012" end
play rod to crank. Main clearance should be 0.002". 0.004 to 0.007"
end play.
Hope this helps J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
G-BUCO: Does anyone (like, say the owner :) have any more pictures of
this particular Piet? It's one of the best looking ones I've seen,
and would love to have some more pics of it, particualarly some
close-ups and high-res color shots.
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
That's Right!
Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
stoked since I got engaged!
This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
to write it all down...
Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
-keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
din of the engine..
I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
Steve Eldredge
PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
be processed.
Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
Bobby White wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm new to the list. ...haven't committed to building, yet but have
> been seriously studing the Piet and trying to decide wheather or not to
> take the plunge.
> I was at Broadhead, breifly this year and got some nice pictures. I'm
> learning to acetylene weld and learn about wood. (welding seems less
> complicated :-) Input for newbie appreciated. Thanks
> Bobby White. N.W. Ar.
Go ahead take the plunge. You won't regret it.
Domenico/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> That's Right!
>
> Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
> picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
> stoked since I got engaged!
>
> This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
> to write it all down...
>
> Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
> before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
> noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
> variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
> complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
> and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
> directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
> airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
> turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
> left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
> till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
> downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
> a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
> the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
> yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
> first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
> -keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
> in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
> din of the engine..
>
> I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>
> Steve Eldredge
>
> PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
> be processed.
>
> Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
Congratulation Steve,
Can't wait to see it flying at brodhead next year. I thought I would
make it up before you, but alas it was not to be. How was the trim?Maybe
you could fly up to Brussels, Ontario in June at our Pietenpol flyin.
Good luck with the rest of your testing.
Regards,
Domenico/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
>
> Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
Steve, what is your web page address?Thanks,
Bruce
flyer(at)clas.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 6:40 PM
>
> That's Right!
>
> Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
> picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
> stoked since I got engaged!
>
> This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
> to write it all down...
>
> Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
> before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
> noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
> variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
> complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
> and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
> directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
> airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
> turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
> left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
> till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
> downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
> a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
> the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
> yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
> first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
> -keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
> in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
> din of the engine..
>
> I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> Steve Eldredge
>
> PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
> be processed.
>
> Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Steve's first flight |
>To: piet(at)byu.edu
>
>From: Peter Knowles
>Subject: Steves first flight.
>
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>From: Peter Knowles
>>Subject: Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
>>
>>>That's Right!
>>>
>>>Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
>>>picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
>>>stoked since I got engaged!
>>>
>>>This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
>>>to write it all down...
>>>
>>>Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
>>>before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
>>>noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
>>>variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
>>>complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
>>>and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
>>>directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
>>>airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
>>>turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
>>>left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
>>>till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
>>>downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
>>>a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
>>>the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
>>>yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
>>>first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
>>>-keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
>>>in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
>>>din of the engine..
>>>
>>>I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>Steve Eldredge
>>>
>>>PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
>>>be processed.
>>>
>>>Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
>>>
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
>That's Right!
>
>Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
>picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
>stoked since I got engaged!
>
>This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
>to write it all down...
>
>Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
>before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
>noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
>variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
>complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
>and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
>directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
>airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
>turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
>left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
>till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
>downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
>a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
>the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
>yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
>first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
>-keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
>in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
>din of the engine..
>
>I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>Steve Eldredge
>
>PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
>be processed.
>
>Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Steves first flight. |
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>From: Peter Knowles
>Subject: Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
>
>>That's Right!
>>
>>Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
>>picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
>>stoked since I got engaged!
>>
>>This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
>>to write it all down...
>>
>>Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
>>before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
>>noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
>>variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
>>complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
>>and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
>>directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
>>airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
>>turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
>>left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
>>till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
>>downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
>>a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
>>the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
>>yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
>>first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
>>-keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
>>in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
>>din of the engine..
>>
>>I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>>Steve Eldredge
>>
>>PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
>>be processed.
>>
>>Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Congratulations, Steve! I am very envious, and still about a year behind
you. Mine is sitting on saw horses with tail on, controls in, and centre
wing section attached. It looks good! However, I can't put the wings
together till spring time when I can get into the garage and it's warm
enough for gluing. Plan on doing the feet next. You haven't got a spare 65
hp Continental, or know where there is a Corvair, do you?
All the best, and good flying!
-=Ian=-
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 18:40 PM
>
> That's Right!
>
> Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
> picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
> stoked since I got engaged!
>
> This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
> to write it all down...
>
> Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
> before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
> noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
> variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
> complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
> and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
> directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
> airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
> turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
> left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
> till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
> downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
> a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
> the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
> yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
> first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
> -keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
> in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
> din of the engine..
>
> I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> Steve Eldredge
>
> PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
> be processed.
>
> Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> That's Right!
>
> Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
> picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
> stoked since I got engaged!
>
> This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
> to write it all down...
>
> Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
> before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
> noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
> variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
> complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
> and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
> directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
> airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
> turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
> left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
> till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
> downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
> a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
> the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
> yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
> first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
> -keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
> in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
> din of the engine..
>
> I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>
> Steve Eldredge
>
> PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
> be processed.
>
> Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
Congratulations, Steve! Glad you got that first flight in before it got
too cold (or does the adrenaline keep you warm?)!! I know the wife and
children are proud, too. When you get to Brodhead, challenge them to
find those longeron scarf joints in the cockpit area. Good luck and
enjoy the test flying!
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Stevee !! Way to go !!!! How neat. HAVE TO HEAR MORE !!!
Tell us....did you get some tailwheel time first ???
In what kind of plane ????
Was the first flight from grass or pavement ???
Did you do lots of taxi tests first ??
Did you 'hop' it or just go for it first time ??
Were your knees shaking ???
Did you have a crowd or just your brother ??
Did you need to change underware ??
AWESOME !!!! Congratulations !!!! Mike C>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | My web site addr. |
flyer(at)clas.net wrote:
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of
> days.
>
> Steve, what is your web page address?Thanks,
> Bruce
> flyer(at)clas.net
http://steve.byu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
> Stevee !! Way to go !!!! How neat. HAVE TO HEAR MORE !!!
Thanks to you Mike, and all others who have sent their words of
encouragement. It is truly awesome. I woke up this morning still
feeling as excited as when I went to bed. I was up nearly till midnight
before I got off the phone with all my family and friends. This has been
a life-long dream realized. If I had to stop right here and walk away
it would still be one of the greatest experiences of my life. Not that
is outshines anything like getting married (staying married) watching my
children being born, and growing up, but it blows away the feelings that
I had at graduation from college! Anyway back to the questions.
> Tell us....did you get some tailwheel time first ??? In what kind of
> plane ????
Yes I did. I have spent several hours with a great instructor in a 150
hp Super Cub. This was expensive, but invaluable. I would not have been
able to build my confidence without many TO's and landings. I also have
something over 250 hours in may types of a/c spread over the last 15
years. The piet flies different than anything I have flown before.
Pitch is much more sensitive than anything I've flown. I also flew with
friends in two Avid Flyers, and two different Kitfox's. There is no
substitute for stick time. Even at this point I have limited myself to
under 5 knots wind within 15 degrees of the runway no gusts. I will
practice under these conditions and then get more instruction in
crosswind conditions, and wheel landings before opening up the envelope.
> Was the first flight from grass or pavement ???
Both my instruction and first flight were from pavement. I simple cant
find a grass strip. yet. The cub has 8.50 by 6 tundra tires and mine
has the 6.00 by 6 tires. Maintaining directional control is the most
important difference between tail and tri gear planes.
> Did you do lots of taxi tests first ??
> Did you 'hop' it or just go for it first time ??
My logs include about three hours of taxi testing. I discovered a great
deal about the airplane and developed a squawk list that I used to fix
problems that I found on the ground. I have one started now after
flying as well. I think that my extensive taxi tests helped me learn
more quickly what was going on during take off and landings as I flew
with my instructor. The key is using pressure rather than movement.
This was a great discovery for me and damped and fine tuned my responses
and made the difference between over controlling and chasing the
airplane all over the runway to being able to predict and feel tracking
accuratly. Lots of practice.
> Were your knees shaking ???
I fully expected that they would be but after I finished, I hopped out
and checked. I was quite calm and subdued- physically. Emotionally I
was bouncing off the walls! Perma-Grin.
> Did you have a crowd or just your brother ??
Just like my first solo flight on my sixteenth birthday, I thought that
I was flying with minimal spectators. I purposely didn't invite my wife
or kids, or other flying buddies. I invited my brother and armed him
with a crash ax, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, a bike, my pickup,
and cell phone. His instructions if I were to go down were to get to me
as fast as he could, determine if I were conscious or not. If I was we
would determine what to do then, If I was out, he was to get me out of
the plane by whatever means he could -not sparing the airframe- drag me
away and call for help. As it turns out everything was textbook perfect
and as I taxied back in, Andrew following behind on the bike, I
discovered a small number of fellow aviators had arrived and greeted me
with smiles and waves nearly as energetic as mine. The debriefing was
great. I called home at once and we went out for ice cream that night.
After a few hours I will have a public debut.
> Did you need to change underware ??
Nope!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Congratulations Steve!
Great incentive for the rest of us to continue on. I keep
telling my friends I don't know when I'll get it done; but getting
there is half the fun! ( comments? ) Well maybe not quite half,
compared to that perfect first flight. Thanks for the discription of
the flight. I liked the idea of your brother as the rescue committee.
Are you sure you trust him with an axe?
Many happy landings, John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
As promised.
http:\\steve.byu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Ian Holland wrote:
> Congratulations, Steve! I am very envious, and still about a year behind
> you. Mine is sitting on saw horses with tail on, controls in, and centre
> wing section attached. It looks good! However, I can't put the wings
> together till spring time when I can get into the garage and it's warm
> enough for gluing. Plan on doing the feet next. You haven't got a spare 65
> hp Continental, or know where there is a Corvair, do you?
> All the best, and good flying!
> -=Ian=-
> Ian,
I just bought a friends project and he has a Corvair for sale with a Vi Kapler
prop hub. His name is Tony Silva and can be reached at 941-625-0022
> ----------
> > From: Steve Eldredge
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Subject: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
> > Date: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 18:40 PM
> >
> > That's Right!
> >
> > Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
> > picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
> > stoked since I got engaged!
> >
> > This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a chance
> > to write it all down...
> >
> > Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed just
> > before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called around
> > noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
> > variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
> > complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
> > and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
> > directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
> > airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
> > turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
> > left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
> > till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
> > downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything, what
> > a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease off
> > the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
> > yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
> > first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks straight
> > -keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
> > in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
> > din of the engine..
> >
> > I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> > Steve Eldredge
> >
> > PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film to
> > be processed.
> >
> > Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Congratulations!!! I'm envious.
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:40:49 -0700
>From: Steve Eldredge
>Subject: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>
>That's Right!
>
>Just after 1pm this afternoon I took her up! No problems! It was
>picture perfect 15 min flight around the patch. I haven't been this
>stoked since I got engaged!
>
>This is the short version, I'll post the whole story when I get a
chance
>to write it all down...
>
>Watched the weather all morning, a mild high pressure system passed
just
>before 11am. I decided to make a go of it when my brother called
around
>noon. Arrived at the airport just before 1pm Winds were light and
>variable. Preflight and started on the first hand prop. Runup
>complete, and full power run for a few minutes. Taxied into position
>and my flying mindset kicks in. Ease on full power, maintain
>directional control tail comes up, a short run on the mains and I'm
>airborn. Everything is a go and I climb to about 500' before my first
>turn. I'm flying! Did a couple of turns to the right and one to the
>left. Power off at 1200' over the runway striaght ahead, back pressure
>till controls feel a little mushy, full power, nose down left turn to
>downwind. Power on glide at about 60mph. Man I can see everything,
what
>a view! Coordinate those shallow turns. Ok final at one mile. Ease
off
>the power. Good, Good... Over the numbers at 30' power off. Gradual
>yet constant back pressure. Down, down. Full stick back. Thump. Tail
>first, Just a small trot on the mains then solid ground. Tracks
straight
>-keep alert on the rudder.. Taxi back.. What a Rush!!! Brother falls
>in trail on my bike. I let out a yell. He hears it plainly above the
>din of the engine..
>
>I'm still smiling!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>Steve Eldredge
>
>PS. I couldn't get the digital camera so I have to wait for the film
to
>be processed.
>
>Dang. Check back on my web site for these photo's in a couple of days.
>
>
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Steve, Congratulations on flight. I went to your web page and checked it
out. That rascal looks really neat! When you get farther into your test
program, let me know your estimated take-off and landing distance. I want
to operate out of a small field here in Ar. if I build | From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Bobby,
How long is your field? Is it sloped at all? I have been flying a C-65
Piet off an 800 ft farm field. Just a little down hill to the west. I
was supprised to see how much difference not being exactly level makes.
Landing down hill is a little tricky. The 800ft was fine alone. I
haven't attempted to take a passenger out of the field yet.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Hi, Craig -- Greetings to group
...field here is also about 800-900ft. non obstructed on one end but
(yikes!) power line at other. Here in Ar. the power line people seem to
know where all the possible landing spots may be and placed the lines in
those places :-) At any rate I'll have to choose my flying days approately
and try to get the company to bury the line
If I build, I already have an 0-200, but may go w/65hp. instead (input
welcome).
Also, I'm trying to decide whether to go wood or tube. I really enjoy
acetylene welding and would probably enjoy welding together the fuselage.
Again advice is needed here.
Bobby
> From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R!
> Date: Friday, November 21, 1997 10:15 AM
>
> Bobby,
>
> How long is your field? Is it sloped at all? I have been flying a C-65
> Piet off an 800 ft farm field. Just a little down hill to the west. I
> was supprised to see how much difference not being exactly level makes.
> Landing down hill is a little tricky. The 800ft was fine alone. I
> haven't attempted to take a passenger out of the field yet.
>
> Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Bob,
A friend had powerlines at the end of his field and had them buried. I
think it was real expensive. I don't have any experience with the O-200,
but the power sounds neat.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Strength of Various Woods |
Be careful. I found (when I asked very direct questions) that some of
the wood labeled hemlock, fir and hem/fir is really just something from
a family of wood types, they can't tell you what it actually is. I don't
know about hemlock, but I found that Douglas Fir is very identifiable by
color (reddish) and grain. I used a book from the library for
identifying wood type.
Good luck
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:56:35 -0800
>From: Brent Reed
>Subject: Re: Strength of Various Woods
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>
> Your the man, Mike! Great info! Just so I'm clear, grain run out of
less
>than 1 in 12 would mean that as it runs lengthwise it is going to one
side
>of my board less that one inch for every 12. Is that right?
>
>I found Hemlock at Home Depot. It's graded C or better. If I select
>straight grain (as above) knot free 1"x 6" for my ribs am I choosing
wisely?
>
>This group is invaluable! Thanks.
>
>Brent Reed
>Kent WA
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Sunday, November 16, 1997 11:06 PM
>Subject: Strength of Various Woods
>
>
>>Hello Brent!
>>As promised I dug out my copy of ANC-18 Design of Wood Aircraft
>>Structures, 2nd ed. 1951, which is 234 pages of wonderful details on
>>wooden aircraft construction methods. This manual was put together
for
>>joint Air Force, Navy and Civil use. I'll provide some basic numbers
>>comparing Sitka Spruce, Douglas Fir and Western Hemlock based on a
>>typical 15% moisture content from Table 2-6, p. 22.
>> Density (lb/cu ft) Spruce 28
>> Fir 33
>> Hemlock 30
>>
>> Static Bending Spruce 5,300
>> Fiber Stress at Fir 5,900
>> proportional limit Hemlock 6,200
>> (psi)
>>
>> Compression parallel Spruce 3,530
>> to grain fiber stress Fir 4,220
>> at proportional limit Hemlock 4,080
>> (psi)
>>
>> Shear strength Spruce 990
>> parallel to grain Fir 950
>> (psi) Hemlock 860
>>
>> Tension strength Spruce 9,400
>> parallel to grain Fir 10,900
>> (psi) Hemlock 11,000
>>
>>So what does all this mean? There are other physical properties in
>>ANC-18, but I think these are enough to show that the hemlock,
properly
>>selected for quality and adhering to the standard grain runout of no
>>more than 1 inch in 12 (preferrably 1 in 15), is an acceptable
>>substitute for spruce in the Air Camper. The Air Camper is a pretty
>>conservative design and is not intended for aerobatics, so the hemlock
>>should provide you with the robustness Bernie Pietenpol intended. You
>>might want to make up some small test samples of your wood to pull and
>>bend with your adhesive of choice for your own peace of mind and the
FAA
>>inspector.
>>
>>In case you were wondering, I am a design engineer for the Lockheed
>>Skunk Works. Just so you knew the data didn't just come off the
>>street. Hope this helps.
>>Mike List
>>
>
>
Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AirCampr(at)aol.com |
I have pretty nearly decided on using the Corvair engine in my Piet, BUT...
I am really attatched to the look of the short, original fuselage. I think
the longer fuselage makes the plane look too... something... I just dont
like it. It's not as quaint. Can't really describe what I mean. Is it
possible to use the Corvair engine AND use the short fuselage? Can the CG be
made to be in the right place without too much trouble?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: !st Flight of Stevee's Air Camper NX7229R! |
Congratulations Steve. It is nice to learn how you feel after all those
long hours (days, weeks, years...). I am glad you got there and feel it is
worth it. Thanks for sharing it with the rest of us.
> Even at this point I have limited myself to
>under 5 knots wind within 15 degrees of the runway no gusts.
That is exactly how I tell anyone who wants to learn. I started there and
found myself in the air one day with 20-25 knots at 45 degrees. Had 45
minutes to think about it after I took off. Amazingly, I got it down.
> I will practice under these conditions and then get more instruction in
>crosswind conditions, and wheel landings before opening up the envelope.
Just remember when you open the envelope that this is a very light aircraft.
Probably lighter than anything you have ever flown. Even after you get it
on the ground you have to be very careful of gusts, especially from the
side. After almost being overturned while taxiing I took about 15 minutes
to taxi back slower than a walk.
Good luck and have lots of fun.
Ted Brousseau/APF
nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net
Sunny SW Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
For anyone who cares, the zip file on my site containing all the
Pietenpol pictures I have accumulated over the lst few months has
been updated, and is now at 8 MB. The index file has been updated as
well, so finding an image in the pile is a lot easier. The history
page has been created, and if anyone notices errors, please let me
know so I can fix it. Plus, if anyone has any info they can add to
the history page, please email me your tidbit.
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet
Thanks,
Richard
p.s. Anyone have an answer to my question about using the short
fuselage w/ the Corvair engine? Can it be done?
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Kinner Engines |
I wish I had more info to give you! I got the reference to the Kinner
engine from the info kit sent to me by Mr. Donald Pietenpol.
Anyone on the list have Kinner info?
RichardPietenpol Discussion
> Hi Richard Just browsing around and noticed in your piet history
> mention of Kinner engines being used to power a piet. Do you have any
> more info? I was looking at a Kinner on Saturday and dreaming.......
>
> J Mc
>
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> |
I was listening to the news this morning on the way to work, when I
heard an argument against hand propping by oneself and not restraining
the plane.
Now you're getting ahead of me.
Seems a man hand propped his "vintage aircraft" this week and took off
for a two hour flight. Down side is, he wasn't able to get on board
before the take off. The report said the plane flew, on its own, until
it apparently ran out of gas, crashed and no one was [physically] hurt.
Having one's plane crash has got to hurt.
Anyway, I was wondering what type of "vintage aircraft" it was. Anyone
know, or know any more details?
Thanks
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn) |
| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
I had told of a similar story to this one that happened
in 1978 on this list about two months ago. The airplane
in that case made one big circle around the airport and
crashed yards from where it started.
The one from this last weekend was, sure enough, the same
type...a Champ. I think the Champ, having the pilot sit
right on the cg, has little change in trim when nobody is
in it, so it flies quite nicely all by itself.
People never learn...
john
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu |
I have never received my newsletter that would normally have been
sent
in late September. I thought I heard that Grant was moving and
that it
would be delayed. Have any of you received it? When?
John Fay
email: aron(at)heartland.bradley.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Bill Talbert wrote:
>
> I was listening to the news this morning on the way to work, when I
> heard an argument against hand propping by oneself and not restraining
> the plane.
>
> Now you're getting ahead of me.
>
> Seems a man hand propped his "vintage aircraft" this week and took off
> for a two hour flight. Down side is, he wasn't able to get on board
> before the take off. The report said the plane flew, on its own, until
> it apparently ran out of gas, crashed and no one was [physically] hurt.
>
> Having one's plane crash has got to hurt.
>
> Anyway, I was wondering what type of "vintage aircraft" it was. Anyone
> know, or know any more details?
>
> Thanks
> Bill
Aircraft N83101 is registered to Robert W. Cook of 3120 Windmill dr.,
Beaver Creek, Ohio,45432 The aircraft is an Aeronca 7AC
7AC-1758,Continental engine A&C65 series ,year, 1946, AWC Type standard
registration date 16 july,1993
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Bill, John,
Yes, that was a 46' Champ that got away here in Ohio. Engine stopped
on a taxiway and he got out to restart it and away she flew.
Flew 90 miles to Urbana, OH and reached 12,000 ft. according to the
Ohio State Air Trooper Cessna 182 until running out of fuel. Landed
in a soybean field in a spiral. Messed up everything except the left front
strut and left aileron, & left main gear leg. What a sick feeling he must
have had watching that thing solo without him. MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Bill Talbert wrote:
> Seems a man hand propped his "vintage aircraft" this week and took off
> for a two hour flight. Down side is, he wasn't able to get on board
> before the take off. The report said the plane flew, on its own, until
> it apparently ran out of gas, crashed and no one was [physically] hurt.
>
> Having one's plane crash has got to hurt.
>
> Anyway, I was wondering what type of "vintage aircraft" it was. Anyone
> know, or know any more details?
>
The AVWeb AVFlash e-mail I received yesterday had the following item:
- - - SNIP - - -
FREE FLIGHT, BUT NOT EXACTLY WHAT THE FAA HAD IN MIND: This Aeronca
Champ was being hand propped by a lone pilot Sunday morning at Urbana,
Ohio's Grimes Field. It fired up with no one aboard and apparently not
tied down, or at least, not properly tied down. The unoccupied Champ
took off and reportedly climbed to 12,000 ft. before eventually
"landing" in a bean field approximately 90 miles away, badly damaged,
but mostly intact. We'd love to see what the pilot puts down on the
insurance claim: "it had a mind of its own."
- - - SNIP - - -
AVWeb can be found at http://www.avweb.com after a simple registration
form you can request the weekly AVFlash e-mail service which is free of
charge to a subscriber. 5-6 pages of tis type of news each week. Worth
the reading.
Larry
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Division *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: BPA Newsletter |
Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote:
>
> I have never received my newsletter that would normally have been
> sent
> in late September. I thought I heard that Grant was moving and
> that it
> would be delayed. Have any of you received it? When?
>
> John Fay
>
> email: aron(at)heartland.bradley.edu
Got mine about 2 weeks ago!
Larry
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Division *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: PhotoShop file |
I have set up a new page on my site for those who wish to download
the "Pietenpol coloring book". It can be found here:
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/paintme.html
Richard
> I would like to take advantage of your kind offer of the Piet coloring book
> (neat!).
>
> Thanks,
> Bob Boatright
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kinner Engines |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I wish I had more info to give you! I got the reference to the Kinner
> engine from the info kit sent to me by Mr. Donald Pietenpol.
>
> Anyone on the list have Kinner info?
>
> RichardPietenpol Discussion
>
> > Hi Richard Just browsing around and noticed in your piet history
> > mention of Kinner engines being used to power a piet. Do you have any
> > more info? I was looking at a Kinner on Saturday and dreaming.......
I forwared this to a friend of mine and received:
The foremost Kinner engine rebuilder I know of:
Al Ball
Antique Aero Engines
Santa Paula, CA
I have his phone number at home, or if someone wants to use information, the
area code is 805.
Hope this helps.
Brett Hulboy
blhulboy(at)mmm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
>Richard,
>Sport Aviation Magazine, from EAA lists propeller carving in the classified
>section at the end of each issue. Eric Clutton, who I think lives in
>Tennessee, has a little book on carving your own propeller. If you have a
>Kitplanes issue with the aircraft directory, December or January issue, I
>think, look for Eric as the designer of a plane called "Fred." That stands
>for Flying, Roadable something-or-other. It''s a good book with just the
>right amount of theory and practical information. Good luck!
I carve mine (5 props up to date) using this Eric Clutton's book, The first
one was carved complete but is difficult to get both side exactly the same,
since then all of them were carved only one side, then duplicated using the
Gary McGill=B4s carving pantograf (sp.), then finished with lots of love=
and
patience.
Is great to carve, balance and test a propeller....
Wrap Drive is only as interesting as signing your credit card charge :-)
Saludos
Sail
Almost ready!=09
EAA Chapter 1039 President
ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(80%)(own design)FAI=
legal
Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Ultralight (248 Kg dry)
Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the=
GPS!)
"Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en
que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian=
Taber
(When we involve anyone else in our flying we should be held to a higher
standard in term of physical health, trainnig and airplane maintenance. -
Julian Taber)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ok, what do I do about this? |
As you are all aware I have started flying my piet. Challenges are not
over however. I have a couple of hours on it now and have found that I
am still going to be doing some tweeking. One problem I didn't expect
however, that I would like to throw out for comment is my high RPM.
Static I can get well over 2500rpm and in the air I am at about 2700!
This with an A-65 and a Sensenich 72X44" prop. Everything I have
checked indicated that this should be the prop for this engine, yet I
feel like the engine has got lots of power being wasted. Comments?
what combo's are others using with the ol 65.
Steve e.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, what do I do about this? |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> As you are all aware I have started flying my piet. Challenges are not
> over however. I have a couple of hours on it now and have found that I
> am still going to be doing some tweeking. One problem I didn't expect
> however, that I would like to throw out for comment is my high RPM.
>
> Static I can get well over 2500rpm and in the air I am at about 2700!
> This with an A-65 and a Sensenich 72X44" prop. Everything I have
> checked indicated that this should be the prop for this engine, yet I
> feel like the engine has got lots of power being wasted. Comments?
>
> what combo's are others using with the ol 65.
>
> Steve e.
Hi Steve!
More congrats on your flight! You're about 3 years ahead of me.
I had a J-3 Cub with a 65 Continental for many years. It flies as much like a
Pietenpol as anything I've ever flown (which
is one reason I'm building a Piet). Mine had a McCauley metal prop that was 74"
diameter with a 45" pitch. It gave 2100 RPM
on climbout and seemed to work just fine. A wooden prop is not as clean, so I
would think that 72 x 45 or 74 x 42 would work
fine. The 74 x 45 that I had was considered a "Cruise" prop and the old Cub would
indicate 87 mph with it, which just means
the Airspeed Indicator was lying in its teeth. It would really do about 75 mph.
Good Luck with your test flying.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Bill Talbert wrote:
>
> I was listening to the news this morning on the way to work, when I
> heard an argument against hand propping by oneself and not restraining
> the plane.
>
> Now you're getting ahead of me.
>
> Seems a man hand propped his "vintage aircraft" this week and took off
> for a two hour flight. Down side is, he wasn't able to get on board
> before the take off. The report said the plane flew, on its own, until
> it apparently ran out of gas, crashed and no one was [physically] hurt.
>
> Having one's plane crash has got to hurt.
>
> Anyway, I was wondering what type of "vintage aircraft" it was. Anyone
> know, or know any more details?
>
> Thanks
> Bill
Don't know which vintage plane it is that crashed, but just tonight I
was visiting a friend in Hillsburg, Ontario. He showed me a news article
of one that took off in Ohio. Travelled 100 mi., climbed to 11,000 ft.
then ran out of gas 1hr. later. The police were tracking it in a
Helicopter. At one point they were going to get the military to shoot it
down but decided against it. It crashed in a bean field. It was an
Aeronca Champ.
Regards, Domenico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcsBell(at)netcom.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, what do I do about this? |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> As you are all aware I have started flying my piet. Challenges are not
> over however. I have a couple of hours on it now and have found that I
> am still going to be doing some tweeking. One problem I didn't expect
> however, that I would like to throw out for comment is my high RPM.
>
> Static I can get well over 2500rpm and in the air I am at about 2700!
> This with an A-65 and a Sensenich 72X44" prop. Everything I have
> checked indicated that this should be the prop for this engine, yet I
> feel like the engine has got lots of power being wasted. Comments?
>
> what combo's are others using with the ol 65.
>
> Steve e.
Hi Steve,
It could be the sensenich 72X44" prop. itself. Perhaps how they measure
their pitch. I'm not sure what the standard for measuring is. I have a
friend that used the same make and pitch, he also was not very happy
with it's performance. He switched to a Flotorp of the same pitch and
performance was greatly improved. He did however have other engine
problems that were never addressed since he crashed on take-off after
making a left turnout in front of a barn and only 50ft. off the ground.
he survived the crash with minor injuries to his eye. The seat belt let
go. You may know him from Brodhead. I won't mention his name here.
Perhaps Brian Kenney can offer you some assistance.
Regards, Domenico Bellissimo/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BPA Newsletter |
>Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote:
>>
>> I have never received my newsletter that would normally have been
>> sent
>> in late September. I thought I heard that Grant was moving and
>> that it
>> would be delayed. Have any of you received it? When?
>>
>> John Fay
>>
>> email: aron(at)heartland.bradley.edu
>
>Got mine about 2 weeks ago!
>
>Larry
>
>* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Division *
> Yea mee too. 2 weeks ago
BARRY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, what do I do about this? |
>Steve Eldredge wrote:
>>
>> As you are all aware I have started flying my piet. Challenges are not
>> over however. I have a couple of hours on it now and have found that I
>> am still going to be doing some tweeking. One problem I didn't expect
>> however, that I would like to throw out for comment is my high RPM.
>>
>> Static I can get well over 2500rpm and in the air I am at about 2700!
>> This with an A-65 and a Sensenich 72X44" prop. Everything I have
>> checked indicated that this should be the prop for this engine, yet I
>> feel like the engine has got lots of power being wasted. Comments?
>>
>> what combo's are others using with the ol 65.
>>
>> Steve e.
>
I had a Flotorp 74 x 48 wood prop on the A65 in my Flybaby. Even though the
designer claimed 105 MPH cruise it was close to the speed of a Pietenpol,
about 75 -80. As I remember, I could get about 2000 RPM static. I couldn't
red line it in a climb and yet it performed well - seemed like a good
compromise.
A A65 I know of in a Pietenpol used a 69 x 50 metal prop. Not sure how it
performed.
I doubt you are "wasting" power. You are probably getting more than rated
power out because of the higher RPM. Lots of engines have had the red line
moved up to get more horsepower over the years. At that high speed the life
of the engine will be reduced and the reliability will go down.
I would say you need several inches more pitch. Your takeoff run and climb
won't be as impressive but it will get the RPM down where it should be.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, what do I do about this? |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
> One problem I didn't expect however, that I would like to throw out for comment
is my high RPM.
>
> Static I can get well over 2500rpm and in the air I am at about 2700!
> This with an A-65 and a Sensenich 72X44" prop. Everything I have
> checked indicated that this should be the prop for this engine, yet I
> feel like the engine has got lots of power being wasted. Comments?
>
> what combo's are others using with the ol 65.
>
> Steve e.
Steve,
Sounds like you need another inch or two of pitch, maybe around 46".
The diameter sounds right at 72". You mentioned that the engine and
prop came out of a Taylorcraft. That prop/engine combination might work
ok for the faster Taylorcraft but not for the Piet. I don't have any
experience with the A-65 in a Piet so maybe some others who do can
suggest a particular prop for you. You may also want to have your
tachometer checked and calibrated before getting a new prop, sometimes
they are off by a hundred rpm or more. If your prop is a Sensenich they
are still doing a good business, now down in Plant City, FL, and they
may be able to suggest a prop or possibly rework yours. There was an
article on them in the July 1997 Sport Aviation listing a web site at
http://www.sensenich.com.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: My question about Ford Model A |
>Yesterday I asked about the standard bore sizes, etc. for the model A engine
>belonging to our Pietenpol. I haven't heard back anything, so... does anyone
>know where such information can be obtained? There doesn't seem to be any
>specifications anywhere on the Web.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>J. Sunlin
>
some years ago I bought a book for rebuilding the model A (all the car
including the engine) from J.C. Whitney & Co. Ask them they have a Web
Page....(?)
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using as
far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x
3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before using
Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it me
or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of old
and new.?
________________________________________________________________________________
1/4 X 1/2 I use T-88 and love it. Get yourself some medicine plastic pill
cups, 2 oz, and a box of acid brushes. That way you mix a little at a time as
you use it and throw the brush and container away.
PHIL PECK wrote:
> Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using as
> far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x
> 3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before using
> Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it me
> or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of old
> and new.?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
T-88 is the way to go. Don't use any thing that is waxed to mix the T88 in
or on. I used small note pad paper to mix T88 on when building ribs. You
don't need that much glue and a small stick is all you need, those brushes
are a lot more expensive than a stick the size of a popsicle stick. When
doing spars and other big jobs I used paper plates and sticks. I have used
Plastic Resin Glue and it does a good job also but T88 mixes faster and
there is not waiting period before you can use it. I you can weight the
gussets instead of nailing them down you will have a better looking rib.
The small nails are hard to handle and after a short time start to back
themselves out. If you insist on nails I have found something that really
works well. From an electronic shop you can get a clip that will hold the
nail and save your fingers. Of coarse you still have to put the nail into
the clip. Weights is the way to go. One rib a day and in a month you will
have all the ribs built. Go for it. I think the 1/4 by 1/4 rib is plenty
big and half the weight. Think light. After all the wing loading is only 8
lbs. or less. gotta go now.
jim
>1/4 X 1/2 I use T-88 and love it. Get yourself some medicine plastic pill
>cups, 2 oz, and a box of acid brushes. That way you mix a little at a
time as
>you use it and throw the brush and container away.
>
>PHIL PECK wrote:
>
>> Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using as
>> far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x
>> 3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before using
>> Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it me
>> or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of old
>> and new.?
>
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, what do I do about this? |
Steve,
What make prop are you using or did you do it yourself? I have a Colver
Props 72 44 that I was only getting 2100 out of. I had them take an inch
out and am getting 2250. I guess they are hard to measure?
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
test
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "randy.green" <randy.green(at)MCI2000.com> |
Anything wrong with using staples?
> From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: net size
> Date: Saturday, November 29, 1997 9:05 AM
>
>
>
> T-88 is the way to go. Don't use any thing that is waxed to mix the T88
in
> or on. I used small note pad paper to mix T88 on when building ribs. You
> don't need that much glue and a small stick is all you need, those
brushes
> are a lot more expensive than a stick the size of a popsicle stick. When
> doing spars and other big jobs I used paper plates and sticks. I have
used
> Plastic Resin Glue and it does a good job also but T88 mixes faster and
> there is not waiting period before you can use it. I you can weight the
> gussets instead of nailing them down you will have a better looking rib.
> The small nails are hard to handle and after a short time start to back
> themselves out. If you insist on nails I have found something that really
> works well. From an electronic shop you can get a clip that will hold
the
> nail and save your fingers. Of coarse you still have to put the nail
into
> the clip. Weights is the way to go. One rib a day and in a month you will
> have all the ribs built. Go for it. I think the 1/4 by 1/4 rib is plenty
> big and half the weight. Think light. After all the wing loading is only
8
> lbs. or less. gotta go now.
> jim
>
> >1/4 X 1/2 I use T-88 and love it. Get yourself some medicine plastic
pill
> >cups, 2 oz, and a box of acid brushes. That way you mix a little at a
> time as
> >you use it and throw the brush and container away.
> >
> >PHIL PECK wrote:
> >
> >> Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using
as
> >> far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or
1/4 x
> >> 3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before
using
> >> Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it
me
> >> or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of
old
> >> and new.?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
I used 1/4 X + and Aerolite glue. Aerolite has been given a bad rap lately
and I think it is undeserved. T-88 makes the gussets slippery so they are
difficult to nail. Aerolite "sets" after a couple of seconds and makes the
nailing go much smoother. Other than the ribs, we are using T-88
everyplace.
Greg Cardinal
>>> PHIL PECK 11/28/97 02:04pm >>>
Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using as
far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x
3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before using
Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it me
or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of old
and new.?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
Nothing wrong with staples or nails but remember they only serve a purpose
while the glue drys than they are along for the ride only. If you use
weights you will have a stronger and better looking rib.
jim
>Anything wrong with using staples?
>
>----------
>> From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: Re: net size
>> Date: Saturday, November 29, 1997 9:05 AM
>>
>>
>>
>> T-88 is the way to go. Don't use any thing that is waxed to mix the T88
>in
>> or on. I used small note pad paper to mix T88 on when building ribs. You
>> don't need that much glue and a small stick is all you need, those
>brushes
>> are a lot more expensive than a stick the size of a popsicle stick. When
>> doing spars and other big jobs I used paper plates and sticks. I have
>used
>> Plastic Resin Glue and it does a good job also but T88 mixes faster and
>> there is not waiting period before you can use it. I you can weight the
>> gussets instead of nailing them down you will have a better looking rib.
>> The small nails are hard to handle and after a short time start to back
>> themselves out. If you insist on nails I have found something that really
>> works well. From an electronic shop you can get a clip that will hold
>the
>> nail and save your fingers. Of coarse you still have to put the nail
>into
>> the clip. Weights is the way to go. One rib a day and in a month you will
>> have all the ribs built. Go for it. I think the 1/4 by 1/4 rib is plenty
>> big and half the weight. Think light. After all the wing loading is only
>8
>> lbs. or less. gotta go now.
>> jim
>>
>> >1/4 X 1/2 I use T-88 and love it. Get yourself some medicine plastic
>pill
>> >cups, 2 oz, and a box of acid brushes. That way you mix a little at a
>> time as
>> >you use it and throw the brush and container away.
>> >
>> >PHIL PECK wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using
>as
>> >> far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or
>1/4 x
>> >> 3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before
>using
>> >> Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it
>me
>> >> or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of
>old
>> >> and new.?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> jimsury(at)fbtc.net
>
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | net size -Reply -Reply |
That should read one fourth by one half. Dang computers.
Greg C.
>>> Greg Cardinal 12/01/97 08:42am
>>>
I used 1/4 X +
Greg Cardinal
>>> PHIL PECK 11/28/97 02:04pm >>>
Ok, I'm ready to build the wing ribs so what is everybody really using as
far as size. Are the capstrips and bracing 1/4 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x
3/8 . also what is the glue of the moment. I' ve built boats before using
Weldwood Plastic Resin. But I hear T-88 is the glue of choice. Is it me
or does there seem to be a lot of discrepencies between the plans of old
and new.?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
For those who are interested, I now have a 3D (VRML / Virtual
Reality) Pietenpol under construction at my web site
(http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/) You will need some kind of VRML
viewer to see and navigate around it. I recommend Cosmo Player from
SGI (http://cosmo.sgi.com).
As it says on the site, this whole Piet project is a MAJOR learning
experience for me (having never built an airplane before, other than
models), so, if anyone sees anything on the 3D Piet that is not
right, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me, so I can change it. Otherwise I'm
going to build the real one that way too!
Thanks to all who have helped me so far, and thanks to those who
will. This group is invaluable!
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 3D Pietenpol |
Richard DeCosta wrote:
>
> For those who are interested, I now have a 3D (VRML / Virtual
> Reality) Pietenpol under construction at my web site
> (http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/) You will need some kind of VRML
> viewer to see and navigate around it. I recommend Cosmo Player from
> SGI (http://cosmo.sgi.com).
>
That is the greatest idea I've seen yet. Keep up the good work. Be sure
to try using the right mouse button - makes navigation easier.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
randy.green wrote:
>
> Anything wrong with using staples?
>
> ----------
Randy,
I have heard that some folks have used staples to hold the gussets down
until the glue dries, then remove them afterwards to avoid future rust
problems and get rid of a little weight. I used staples to hold down
some plywood panels on a wooden kayak, and it was a real nightmare
removing them. I did so much marring of the wood removing them that I
vowed never to use them again. If you do not want to do all that
nailing with the little brass nails, consider using just two nails per
gusset to hold it in place, then have spring or over center clamps on
your jig to apply the pressure until the glue dries. Slows down the
building a bit, though.
On the capstrip size, I'll add my two bits. The plans call for 1/4 x
1/2 for the Air Camper, and 1/4 x 1/4 on my Aerial biplane conversion.
The Grega plans call for 1/4 x 1/4 for 65 hp or less, and 1/4 x 1/2 for
more than 65 hp. I built a 1/4 x 1/4 rib and it flexed too much side to
side for my liking though plenty strong in bending. Then I got some 1/4
x 1/2 spruce from my local hobby store and it looked like a part for the
Brooklyn Bridge! Super stout, just the way Bernie Pietenpol intended.
I am compromising with 1/4 x 3/8 for our Piet, still plenty strong for
the speeds we will be flying and a little lighter.
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | on nails and staples |
My two bits.
I nailed all my ribs. Ribs were 1/2 x 1/4. I'd use the same dementions
again I were to do another. Ribs weighted about 8-9 oz each finished if
I remember right. With a finished weight just over 600lbs while using
Doug Fir throughout, It isn't worth the trouble trying to squeeze out a
pound of wood from the ribs IMHO. Many other places are better
canidates for weight reduction. (Spars for example: I saved 4 lbs per
spar ((16LBS!!!)) for the wing by routing.) I used aircraft nails,
which by the way are brass plated, cement coated, steel nails. They
don't rust and *don't* work out. Just try pulling one and you will see
what I mean. They are very small however (20gauge) and I can't hold
them. I devised my system thusly. I went to Sears and bought the best
pair of small needle nose pliers I could find ( ones with the grip teeth
that lined up, and a spring return) and then used them to hold the nails
while I drove them with a 5oz tack hammer. Cheap and worked great. The
only faster way would be if you had a very light duty staple/ or nail
gun. I looked (briefly) and couldn't find one that would handle such
light work. Besides I was on a budget. After driving nearly 200 nails
per rib, pulling them didn't seem realistic especially when you think
that 1 pound of 20gauge 3/8" nails is over 9000 nails! I'll take the
extra peace of mind of having 12 - 16 nails per cluster thank you.
Another advantage nailing has over staples is splitting. I tried
stapling on one rib and found the my gun excerted too much force and the
staples would split my wood. With a hammer you can varry the power with
each blow.
If anyone finds a very light duty, variable pressure staple/nail/brad
gun let me know. It would speed things up if you can afford to swallow
the investment cost.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | on nails and staples -Reply |
I agree with the nails and the size of the dimensioned material.
For holding the nails I used a pair of 79 cent tweezers. They worked
great. CAUTION: Do not borrow your wife's tweezers and then try to
give them back covered with cured Aerolite. She won't appreciate it.
I used a 16 oz hammer, worked just fine. I even had my 7 year old
daughter pounding nails after I started them.
On a related note about ribs, I found that boiling the cap strip material for
20 minutes would soften them up sufficiently to put into the jig. Boiling
longer than 20 minutes softens them up too much and they tend to kink
when being bent.
Greg C.
>>> Steve Eldredge 12/02/97 11:00am >>>
My two bits.
I nailed all my ribs. Ribs were 1/2 x 1/4. I'd use the same dementions
again I were to do another. Ribs weighted about 8-9 oz each finished if
I remember right. With a finished weight just over 600lbs while using
Doug Fir throughout, It isn't worth the trouble trying to squeeze out a
pound of wood from the ribs IMHO. Many other places are better
canidates for weight reduction. (Spars for example: I saved 4 lbs per
spar ((16LBS!!!)) for the wing by routing.) I used aircraft nails,
which by the way are brass plated, cement coated, steel nails. They
don't rust and *don't* work out. Just try pulling one and you will see
what I mean. They are very small however (20gauge) and I can't hold
them. I devised my system thusly. I went to Sears and bought the best
pair of small needle nose pliers I could find ( ones with the grip teeth
that lined up, and a spring return) and then used them to hold the nails
while I drove them with a 5oz tack hammer. Cheap and worked great.
The
only faster way would be if you had a very light duty staple/ or nail
gun. I looked (briefly) and couldn't find one that would handle such
light work. Besides I was on a budget. After driving nearly 200 nails
per rib, pulling them didn't seem realistic especially when you think
that 1 pound of 20gauge 3/8" nails is over 9000 nails! I'll take the
extra peace of mind of having 12 - 16 nails per cluster thank you.
Another advantage nailing has over staples is splitting. I tried
stapling on one rib and found the my gun excerted too much force and
the
staples would split my wood. With a hammer you can varry the power
with
each blow.
If anyone finds a very light duty, variable pressure staple/nail/brad
gun let me know. It would speed things up if you can afford to swallow
the investment cost.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Steve E....Three things: 1) good comments on ribs & nails,
2) What did you ever find out about your 'high' rpm readings,
and 3) Do you have any thoughts on your next project (if you
have one in mind at all) besides flying off your time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: on nails and staples -Reply |
Greg,
How did you set up to boil the cap strips?
Thanks
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 9:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: on nails and staples -Reply
>I agree with the nails and the size of the dimensioned material.
>For holding the nails I used a pair of 79 cent tweezers. They worked
>great. CAUTION: Do not borrow your wife's tweezers and then try to
>give them back covered with cured Aerolite. She won't appreciate it.
>I used a 16 oz hammer, worked just fine. I even had my 7 year old
>daughter pounding nails after I started them.
>On a related note about ribs, I found that boiling the cap strip material
for
>20 minutes would soften them up sufficiently to put into the jig. Boiling
>longer than 20 minutes softens them up too much and they tend to kink
>when being bent.
>
>Greg C.
>
>>>> Steve Eldredge 12/02/97 11:00am >>>
>My two bits.
>
>I nailed all my ribs. Ribs were 1/2 x 1/4. I'd use the same dementions
>again I were to do another. Ribs weighted about 8-9 oz each finished if
>I remember right. With a finished weight just over 600lbs while using
>Doug Fir throughout, It isn't worth the trouble trying to squeeze out a
>pound of wood from the ribs IMHO. Many other places are better
>canidates for weight reduction. (Spars for example: I saved 4 lbs per
>spar ((16LBS!!!)) for the wing by routing.) I used aircraft nails,
>which by the way are brass plated, cement coated, steel nails. They
>don't rust and *don't* work out. Just try pulling one and you will see
>what I mean. They are very small however (20gauge) and I can't hold
>them. I devised my system thusly. I went to Sears and bought the best
>pair of small needle nose pliers I could find ( ones with the grip teeth
>that lined up, and a spring return) and then used them to hold the nails
>while I drove them with a 5oz tack hammer. Cheap and worked great.
>The
>only faster way would be if you had a very light duty staple/ or nail
>gun. I looked (briefly) and couldn't find one that would handle such
>light work. Besides I was on a budget. After driving nearly 200 nails
>per rib, pulling them didn't seem realistic especially when you think
>that 1 pound of 20gauge 3/8" nails is over 9000 nails! I'll take the
>extra peace of mind of having 12 - 16 nails per cluster thank you.
>Another advantage nailing has over staples is splitting. I tried
>stapling on one rib and found the my gun excerted too much force and
>the
>staples would split my wood. With a hammer you can varry the power
>with
>each blow.
>
>If anyone finds a very light duty, variable pressure staple/nail/brad
>gun let me know. It would speed things up if you can afford to swallow
>the investment cost.
>
>Stevee
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: on nails and staples |
Steve,
How do you feel about your choice of wood? It seems like you came in about
where Spruce ships do. And I'm guessing the cost was 1/10 or less. Did you
have to look through huge stacks of wood to find the good stuff? And was
there a certain dimension of stock that you usually chose?
Thanks
Brent Reed
With a finished weight just over 600lbs while using
>Doug Fir throughout
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: on nails and staples |
Brent Reed wrote:
> Steve,
>
> How do you feel about your choice of wood?
Just fine. I will not hesitate to use fir again on any a/c. Unless the
price of sitka spruce comes down.
> It seems like you came in about
> where Spruce ships do. And I'm guessing the cost was 1/10 or less.
Yep. I think the most I paid was $5.25 per board foot and as low as
about $4.60.
> Did you
> have to look through huge stacks of wood to find the good stuff? And
> was
> there a certain dimension of stock that you usually chose?
>
I did have to go to a mill rather than a regular lumber yard. These are
typically the cabinet and specialty supply sources. Once I found the
sources of rough sawn lumber their wood was easy to sort through and I
found several satisfactory pieces. I looked for eight quarter (mill
lingo for ~2" rough lumber. they measure thicknesses in number of
quarter inches) by 6" by 14' boards so that I could get a spar out of
it first with several usable dimensions left over. To build my
aircamper I used a total of 8 or so 2 by 6's varying in length from
12-14' totalling 108 board feet of rough sawn lumber. 14' lengths are
best if you can find them. I had to scarf my four fusalage longerons
because my stock was too short, but I'm pretty proud of my joints.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
Michael D Cuy wrote:
> Steve E....Three things: 1) good comments on ribs & nails,
For what it's worth. :)
> 2) What did you ever find out about your 'high' rpm readings,
I was out of town during the holidays, (Got to fly my uncles cherry 182
though.) so I didn't get to check on it yet. I hope that it's just my
tach. I'm trying to dig up a digital tach to double check.
> and 3) Do you have any thoughts on your next project (if you
> have one in mind at all) besides flying off your time.
> Mike C.
Mike, *YOU* seem to know me all too well. Just last night I spent
the whole evening reading the new plansbuilt directory with glee. I
must have a new project you see. Problem is I am in no better position
to buy the Stallion or Lionheart kit now than I was three years ago when
I made the decision to build a Piet! A Steen Skybolt looks like a great
project. RV's are awesome. I've got this EA-81 core that needs an
airframe, I've got a slightly used set of pietenpol plans, a bunch of
jigs for it hummm... But first my daughters could use some rocking
chairs, and my wife wants a cabinet for her doll collection. We sure
could use a new refrigerator, and I'd love to add to my tool
collection... $$$$
Must.. Not.... Spend....
Ohh...
Better go flying to clear my head.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Steve needs a project |
Hey Steve, I know how you can make both of us happy....you can build me
a Piet or some other taildragger with a stick. Here are my specs:
1) Taildragger
2) Stick
3) Two passenger (Real people 190 lb each)
4) Conventional powerplant (Lycoming, Continential, *RADIAL*)
5) MINE...MINE...MINE...
I expect to see pictures popping up on your web site any day now. Just
sent me the bills as you purchase materials, I'll try to get them past
my wife. We can work out the details later.
I am so tired of renting flying accidents. I was supposed to fly to
Phoenix but the plane I was supposed to rent was ground looped and lost
a wing and propeller! I had a backup plane but had no pilot confidence
in it. Somebody touched the wing on landing and you could see shiny
metal sticking through the fabric (Ground the spar a bit I suppose)
Not to mention the condition of the rest of the aircraft...I drove my
truck. I keep telling my wife that I NEED my own plane. Who knows what
abuse others are putting on the rentals. I can't catch everything on a
preflight. STEVE CAN YOU HELP! Desperately seeking wings. =) You
could save my life man.
PS I'll drive a refrigerator right over, just say the word.
Carl J. Hixon
Project Engineer_______________________
Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544
Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com
> Mike, *YOU* seem to know me all too well. Just last night I spent
> the whole evening reading the new plansbuilt directory with glee. I
> must have a new project you see. Problem is I am in no better
position
> to buy the Stallion or Lionheart kit now than I was three years ago
when
> I made the decision to build a Piet! A Steen Skybolt looks like a
great
> project. RV's are awesome. I've got this EA-81 core that needs an
> airframe, I've got a slightly used set of pietenpol plans, a bunch of
> jigs for it hummm... But first my daughters could use some rocking
> chairs, and my wife wants a cabinet for her doll collection. We sure
> could use a new refrigerator, and I'd love to add to my tool
> collection... $$$$
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "randy.green" <randy.green(at)MCI2000.com> |
| Subject: | Re: on nails and staples -Reply |
I built a Team vertical stabilizer from a kit which they offer and it used
staples for the gussetts and T-88 for the "glue". I removed the staples
with a small screw driver. Worked OK for me. Because of this success I
went on to build the empennage for the Piet, again using staples for the
gussets and a small screw driver to remove them. I don't know that the
staples need to be pulled but I think they should be well varnished if they
are not.
I am away from home as of this writing or I would give you the name of the
stapler (which by the way was supplied with the Team kit). I will follow up
when I get home.
PS: The EAA book on working with aircraft wood says that nails add nothing
to the strength of the finished product.
> From: Brent Reed
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: on nails and staples -Reply
> Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 2:51 PM
>
> Greg,
>
> How did you set up to boil the cap strips?
>
> Thanks
> Brent Reed
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 9:43 AM
> Subject: on nails and staples -Reply
>
>
> >I agree with the nails and the size of the dimensioned material.
> >For holding the nails I used a pair of 79 cent tweezers. They worked
> >great. CAUTION: Do not borrow your wife's tweezers and then try to
> >give them back covered with cured Aerolite. She won't appreciate it.
> >I used a 16 oz hammer, worked just fine. I even had my 7 year old
> >daughter pounding nails after I started them.
> >On a related note about ribs, I found that boiling the cap strip
material
> for
> >20 minutes would soften them up sufficiently to put into the jig.
Boiling
> >longer than 20 minutes softens them up too much and they tend to kink
> >when being bent.
> >
> >Greg C.
> >
> >>>> Steve Eldredge 12/02/97 11:00am >>>
> >My two bits.
> >
> >I nailed all my ribs. Ribs were 1/2 x 1/4. I'd use the same dementions
> >again I were to do another. Ribs weighted about 8-9 oz each finished if
> >I remember right. With a finished weight just over 600lbs while using
> >Doug Fir throughout, It isn't worth the trouble trying to squeeze out a
> >pound of wood from the ribs IMHO. Many other places are better
> >canidates for weight reduction. (Spars for example: I saved 4 lbs per
> >spar ((16LBS!!!)) for the wing by routing.) I used aircraft nails,
> >which by the way are brass plated, cement coated, steel nails. They
> >don't rust and *don't* work out. Just try pulling one and you will see
> >what I mean. They are very small however (20gauge) and I can't hold
> >them. I devised my system thusly. I went to Sears and bought the best
> >pair of small needle nose pliers I could find ( ones with the grip teeth
> >that lined up, and a spring return) and then used them to hold the nails
> >while I drove them with a 5oz tack hammer. Cheap and worked great.
> >The
> >only faster way would be if you had a very light duty staple/ or nail
> >gun. I looked (briefly) and couldn't find one that would handle such
> >light work. Besides I was on a budget. After driving nearly 200 nails
> >per rib, pulling them didn't seem realistic especially when you think
> >that 1 pound of 20gauge 3/8" nails is over 9000 nails! I'll take the
> >extra peace of mind of having 12 - 16 nails per cluster thank you.
> >Another advantage nailing has over staples is splitting. I tried
> >stapling on one rib and found the my gun excerted too much force and
> >the
> >staples would split my wood. With a hammer you can varry the power
> >with
> >each blow.
> >
> >If anyone finds a very light duty, variable pressure staple/nail/brad
> >gun let me know. It would speed things up if you can afford to swallow
> >the investment cost.
> >
> >Stevee
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
Thanks to everyone for the spar info. I will probably go with the plans .
Though I think I will go with clamps instead of nailing! Just for the
record Steve I think I have more RC models to get rid of than you do! Does
anyone know what one wing panel weighs on the 3 piece wing? I would tell
you why I want to know but everybody would tell me I'm wasting my time. So
I won't tell you!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: on nails and staples -Reply -Reply |
I used a piece of 4" copper pipe about 18" long with a cap soldered on
one end and open on the other.
Fill with water to within 3" from the top. I then put this on the kitchen
stove, put in two cap strips and lit the fire. It will start to boil in about
5
minutes. My cap strips were 62" long and my ceiling is 8 ' so clearance
wasn't a problem. If you have longer cap strip material or low ceilings you
may have to use a hotplate or a camping stove on the floor.
After boiling for twenty minutes the cap strips were removed and
immediately placed in the jig while they are soft. Move quickly because
the wood tends to stiffen up within a minute after removing it from the
water.
I then let this set up overnight before gluing.
Greg C.
>>> Brent Reed 12/02/97 01:51pm >>>
Greg,
How did you set up to boil the cap strips?
Thanks
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 9:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: on nails and staples -Reply
>I agree with the nails and the size of the dimensioned material.
>For holding the nails I used a pair of 79 cent tweezers. They worked
>great. CAUTION: Do not borrow your wife's tweezers and then try to
>give them back covered with cured Aerolite. She won't appreciate it.
>I used a 16 oz hammer, worked just fine. I even had my 7 year old
>daughter pounding nails after I started them.
>On a related note about ribs, I found that boiling the cap strip material
for
>20 minutes would soften them up sufficiently to put into the jig. Boiling
>longer than 20 minutes softens them up too much and they tend to kink
>when being bent.
>
>Greg C.
>
>>>> Steve Eldredge 12/02/97 11:00am >>>
>My two bits.
>
>I nailed all my ribs. Ribs were 1/2 x 1/4. I'd use the same dementions
>again I were to do another. Ribs weighted about 8-9 oz each finished if
>I remember right. With a finished weight just over 600lbs while using
>Doug Fir throughout, It isn't worth the trouble trying to squeeze out a
>pound of wood from the ribs IMHO. Many other places are better
>canidates for weight reduction. (Spars for example: I saved 4 lbs per
>spar ((16LBS!!!)) for the wing by routing.) I used aircraft nails,
>which by the way are brass plated, cement coated, steel nails. They
>don't rust and *don't* work out. Just try pulling one and you will see
>what I mean. They are very small however (20gauge) and I can't hold
>them. I devised my system thusly. I went to Sears and bought the best
>pair of small needle nose pliers I could find ( ones with the grip teeth
>that lined up, and a spring return) and then used them to hold the nails
>while I drove them with a 5oz tack hammer. Cheap and worked great.
>The
>only faster way would be if you had a very light duty staple/ or nail
>gun. I looked (briefly) and couldn't find one that would handle such
>light work. Besides I was on a budget. After driving nearly 200 nails
>per rib, pulling them didn't seem realistic especially when you think
>that 1 pound of 20gauge 3/8" nails is over 9000 nails! I'll take the
>extra peace of mind of having 12 - 16 nails per cluster thank you.
>Another advantage nailing has over staples is splitting. I tried
>stapling on one rib and found the my gun excerted too much force and
>the
>staples would split my wood. With a hammer you can varry the power
>with
>each blow.
>
>If anyone finds a very light duty, variable pressure staple/nail/brad
>gun let me know. It would speed things up if you can afford to swallow
>the investment cost.
>
>Stevee
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steve needs a project |
Hixon, Carl wrote:
> Hey Steve, I know how you can make both of us happy....you can build
> me
> a Piet or some other taildragger with a stick. Here are my specs:
>
> 1) Taildragger
> 2) Stick
> 3) Two passenger (Real people 190 lb each)
> 4) Conventional powerplant (Lycoming, Continential, *RADIAL*)
> 5) MINE...MINE...MINE...
>
> I expect to see pictures popping up on your web site any day now.
> Just
> sent me the bills as you purchase materials, I'll try to get them past
>
> my wife. We can work out the details later.
>
> I am so tired of renting flying accidents. I was supposed to fly to
> Phoenix but the plane I was supposed to rent was ground looped and
> lost
> a wing and propeller! I had a backup plane but had no pilot
> confidence
> in it. Somebody touched the wing on landing and you could see shiny
> metal sticking through the fabric (Ground the spar a bit I suppose)
> Not to mention the condition of the rest of the aircraft...I drove my
> truck. I keep telling my wife that I NEED my own plane. Who knows
> what
> abuse others are putting on the rentals. I can't catch everything on
> a
> preflight. STEVE CAN YOU HELP! Desperately seeking wings. =) You
> could save my life man.
>
> PS I'll drive a refrigerator right over, just say the word.
>
> Carl J. Hixon
> Project Engineer__
Very clever Carl, very Clever.... But it won't work.
SteveE.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net> |
Hello All,
I'm a Sailplane pilot & owner who's always wanted to build a power
plane.
Actually the glider stuff was my plan to learn to fly "right" and I'm
having so much fun soaring that it's hard to stick with the plan.
I'd like to build something simple, easy to rig (gotta fold them wings,
I don't want another hanger payment just yet!) and capable of landing in
my neighor's field.
Low and slow is perfect, later I'll go for something faster (AT-6?), but
I need time to put the bucks away and more importantly total time to get
the experience. I've been flying long enough to lose *some* of those
dilusions of adaquacy.
I have a good friend who advised me to build a Piet then build something
faster. That way I'll have a good airplane to fly early, a fast plane
to play with for a while and a good airplane to fly when I retire.
Makes sense.
Okay, I like the design, how does it fly?
Have you ever landed in a rough field?
Have you ever spun your Piet?
How long does it take you to rig your 3-piece wing?
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Good to meet you all, Larry L. Neal
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Little Nails |
What is it?
Did you make it?
If not, where did you get it?
It looks like you are using the big fat nails, not the 20 gauge ones I was
about to use. Is that so?
Thanks,
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 4:18 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Little Nails
>This is how I handled those little nails.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Little Nails |
Brent- The photo Jim S. posted was of a electronic test lead or
'jumper'. We use them here at work all the time. I don't know if
Radio Shack or your local electronics store would carry them, but
that's probably where to look. They come is various sizes too so
you could match them to the nail size you are using. Buy enough of
them and keep your kids busy by having them clamp the nails in the
spring-loaded tip too !
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Little Nails |
No I didn't make it.
I can't think of the name of it but if someone at Radio Shack saw it they
would show you one . It isn't expensive and it comes in 2 sizes this is
the large one.
The nails in the picture are the small 20 gauge nails about 1/4 inch long.
>What is it?
>
>Did you make it?
>
>If not, where did you get it?
>
>It looks like you are using the big fat nails, not the 20 gauge ones I was
>about to use. Is that so?
>
>Thanks,
>Brent Reed
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 4:18 PM
>Subject: Little Nails
>
>
>>This is how I handled those little nails.
>
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Little Nails |
Thank you Mike C that is exactly what it is. I wanted to call it a jumper
but didn't think some would know what a jumper was. Test is lead is what I
was looking for. Beat using needle nose pliers any day.
jim
>Brent- The photo Jim S. posted was of a electronic test lead or
>'jumper'. We use them here at work all the time. I don't know if
>Radio Shack or your local electronics store would carry them, but
>that's probably where to look. They come is various sizes too so
>you could match them to the nail size you are using. Buy enough of
>them and keep your kids busy by having them clamp the nails in the
>spring-loaded tip too !
>
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | djscott(at)heartland.bradley.edu (David Scott) |
Why deviate from the plans?
If they call for 1/4 x 1/2 , 1/4 x 1/4 may be risky business.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
| Subject: | Stevee's material supplies (was: on nails and staples) |
Stevee,
Sounds like you found a good, cheap source of wood. Where are you
located? If you live in an area with fir then it is easier to watch
what the sawmills are cutting and get good material. I grew up in
western Oregon and we could go right to the sawmills. Too bad I don't
have such a good supply in Indiana.
What did you do for plywood? This could easily be more expensive than
all the wood in the airframe, even if you bought spruce. I have looked
at luan underlayment. It is without voids and has clear faces. I did
some soak tests on it that were positive. At $10 a sheet I was thinking
of using it for fuselage side panels. Bowers used door skins in his Fly
Baby design but I don't know if these are readily available anymore.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu] |
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 3:06 PM
| Subject: | Re: Re: on nails and staples |
Brent Reed wrote:
> Steve,
>
> How do you feel about your choice of wood?
Just fine. I will not hesitate to use fir again on any a/c. Unless the
price of sitka spruce comes down.
> It seems like you came in about
> where Spruce ships do. And I'm guessing the cost was 1/10 or less.
Yep. I think the most I paid was $5.25 per board foot and as low as
about $4.60.
> Did you
> have to look through huge stacks of wood to find the good stuff? And
> was
> there a certain dimension of stock that you usually chose?
>
I did have to go to a mill rather than a regular lumber yard. These are
typically the cabinet and specialty supply sources. Once I found the
sources of rough sawn lumber their wood was easy to sort through and I
found several satisfactory pieces. I looked for eight quarter (mill
lingo for ~2" rough lumber. they measure thicknesses in number of
quarter inches) by 6" by 14' boards so that I could get a spar out of
it first with several usable dimensions left over. To build my
aircamper I used a total of 8 or so 2 by 6's varying in length from
12-14' totalling 108 board feet of rough sawn lumber. 14' lengths are
best if you can find them. I had to scarf my four fusalage longerons
because my stock was too short, but I'm pretty proud of my joints.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stevee's material supplies (was: on nails and staples) |
Jim Skinner wrote:
> Stevee,
>
> Sounds like you found a good, cheap source of wood. Where are you
> located?
I live in Provo Utah. I found most of my wood at Salt Lake Mill. It is
not a local raw sawmill, but gets raw wood from other sources. I bought
my plywood from B&D International. They are someplace in the
northwest. They advertise in the back of the sportplane rags, and
probably could be found on the internet. Service was good and prices
were resonable. They even ship ups. The sides of my plane are 1/8" x50
" sheets that I had them rip in half for shipment. I had to scarf the
two lengths together to get enought material to make the side panels.
If you can find door skins or something similar I'd use that. Learning
how to scarf is a great skill however. I even scarfed my le 1/16"
sheeting into one 9" by 14' length.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
test
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
Thanks for the Christmas lights. Now how do I turn them off?
>
>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\lights.exe"
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
Glad you liked the lights look at the lower right part of your screen,and
click on the little green and red icon and the lights will shut off.
Doug..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HPVSUPPLY <HPVSUPPLY(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Model A's & stuff |
Hi There!
Guess it's my turn to quiz everyone! ;-) -- I've been checking around my
area (Central KS) for Model A engines to power our Piet -- finally hit some
paydirt & found a guy not too far away with about a 1/2 dozen of them in
various conditions. 2-3 of them are former combine engines (Baldwin-Gleaner
1939! another advantage of living in a wheat growing area!) Now for the good
part -- he is asking about $350-$450 each (the going "core charge" in our
area). Does this price sound any good??(high, low or good enough to cause a
stampede to KS! ;-)
Other engine possiblities around here are Subaru EA-81 (my work car -- I have
2-3 "donor cars" ) & a 2.3L Ford (super pinto?! -- don't know where to put the
turbo!!). I wouldn't mind an "A" powered Piet -- it just depends on what the
budget will allow!
Steve, did you say there was a "Suba" Piet in process or flying out your way?
As for building, I have progressed more on my Peanut scale Piet than the big
one -- only starting on the tail of the full size -- the P-nut has fuselege,
tail & a balsa Model A engine made. We're using the "Improved" plans with
Vi's 3-piece wing (so we can store the wings in the hay loft!) For
inspiration, I'm only an hour away from Doug Bryant's Piet & there is another
Piet being built by Carroll Shoupe in my wife's home town!
Semper Piet!
Mike Conkling
Pretty Prairie, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager) |
Hi guys:
My names Rick Rager and am into about 85 hours building my fuselage.
I live in Wellingto Ks. Hey Mike why not the good old Corvair eng. I've talked
to Doug Bryant a couple of times and seen his Piet. I know a guy in Ozark
Arkansas who is running a suba on his Piet. If you want to call me (316)
326-5655 I,ll give you his number or any one elses (His a super nice guy but
I not sure he would want his number on the internet) Any way I'm about ready
to start my landing gear. The print shows a 48.5" from the top longeron to
ground.
does any one know if thats a critical dim or is this just ground clearance
for the large dia prop for the Model A. I plan on using smaller aircraft
type tires and a corvair eng so I'll be turning a smaller prop
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "randy.green" <randy.green(at)MCI2000.com> |
| Subject: | Re: on nails and staples |
Steve,
The stapler that came with the Team vertical stabilizer kit is a Bostitch
T10 and use 1/4" staples. Nothing fancy, plain jane, works great. Get one
and test it on some gussets and capstrip. I goes fast. One staple is
approximately equivalent to two nails and they are the perfect length and
no hassle to hold. Cheap.
I really enjoyed following your accounts of your first flight. Your
accomplishment inspires the rest of us wannabes. I've been following the
discussion group for the last couple of months and have been collecting the
comments and information into a text file that will end up looking
something like a construction manual. I don't know if anyone has done that
yet. It would be nice to know so as not to reinvent the wheel.
On Thanksgiving day I went out and bought a Hitachi 10" compound miter saw
(C10FC) as a result as a result of some of the discussions regarding tools
and really like it. I finished up cutting all of the rib braces today and
will start glueing up this week.
I don't understand all of the fuss over boiling the capstrip for the ribs.
I am certainly no expert but I found that my capstrips became piable enough
after putting the ends into a deep bucket of very hot tap water for about
1/2 hour. Am I doing something wrong? So far I haven't seen a need to boil
them.
Randy Green from Greenville, SC
> From: Steve Eldredge
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: on nails and staples
> Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 4:06 PM
>
> Brent Reed wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > How do you feel about your choice of wood?
>
> Just fine. I will not hesitate to use fir again on any a/c. Unless the
> price of sitka spruce comes down.
>
> > It seems like you came in about
> > where Spruce ships do. And I'm guessing the cost was 1/10 or less.
>
> Yep. I think the most I paid was $5.25 per board foot and as low as
> about $4.60.
>
> > Did you
> > have to look through huge stacks of wood to find the good stuff? And
> > was
> > there a certain dimension of stock that you usually chose?
> >
>
> I did have to go to a mill rather than a regular lumber yard. These are
> typically the cabinet and specialty supply sources. Once I found the
> sources of rough sawn lumber their wood was easy to sort through and I
> found several satisfactory pieces. I looked for eight quarter (mill
> lingo for ~2" rough lumber. they measure thicknesses in number of
> quarter inches) by 6" by 14' boards so that I could get a spar out of
> it first with several usable dimensions left over. To build my
> aircamper I used a total of 8 or so 2 by 6's varying in length from
> 12-14' totalling 108 board feet of rough sawn lumber. 14' lengths are
> best if you can find them. I had to scarf my four fusalage longerons
> because my stock was too short, but I'm pretty proud of my joints.
>
> Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
I agree. Also, when you go to bolt the nose cap on, there would not be much
lee way between the nose gussets and the bolt hole. The 1/4 x 1/4 rib would
also not leave much nailing room. I used a 79 cent pair of medical
tweezers that I filed a slight slot in to that handled 3000+ nails with no
problems. The slot allows you to easily pick up the nails and position
them. I found a very nice two ounce brass ball pean type tack hammer that
worked very well. Got it out of House of Tools. I considered clamping
rather than gluing and elected the nails for the wings. I cannot see how
you would get everything in position with clamps. You would need a lot of
them. I stapled and pulled the fuselage gussets. It took over 3000 of them
too. I used aerolite glue and a very few locations that were non structural
got T-88. The aerolite was fun to work with. The T-88 was messy, and tended
to slip, a big factor if you are thinking of clamping. Due an oven test
with the T-88 before you get too far along. You may be surprised at how
much it softens at relatively low temperatures, ie what you could expect in
a covered wing in July.
> From: David Scott <djscott(at)heartland.bradley.edu>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: net size
> Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 21:30 PM
>
>
>
> Why deviate from the plans?
>
> If they call for 1/4 x 1/2 , 1/4 x 1/4 may be risky business.
>
>
> --
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
Gary,
How did you aquire your prop carving pantograph? Does Gary McGill se=
ll them
somewhere?
Thanks,
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
46rom: Gary Gower
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 3:52 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Two questions...
>Richard,
>Sport Aviation Magazine, from EAA lists propeller carving in the cla=
ssified
>section at the end of each issue. Eric Clutton, who I think lives i=
n
>Tennessee, has a little book on carving your own propeller. If you
have a
>Kitplanes issue with the aircraft directory, December or January iss=
ue, I
>think, look for Eric as the designer of a plane called "Fred." That=
stands
>for Flying, Roadable something-or-other. It''s a good book with jus=
t the
>right amount of theory and practical information. Good luck!
I carve mine (5 props up to date) using this Eric Clutton's book, Th=
e first
one was carved complete but is difficult to get both side exactly the=
same,
since then all of them were carved only one side, then duplicated usi=
ng the
Gary McGill=B4s carving pantograf (sp.), then finished with lots of
love and
patience.
Is great to carve, balance and test a propeller....
Wrap Drive is only as interesting as signing your credit card charge
:-)
Saludos
abre
Sail
EAA 280015 1/2 VW trike w/Sabre Sail borrowed
Almost ready!
EAA Chapter 1039 President
ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(80%)(own design)=
FAI
legal
Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Ultralight (248 Kg dry)
Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got=
the GPS!)
"Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tamb=
ien en
que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Jul=
ian
Taber
(When we involve anyone else in our flying we should be held to a hig=
her
standard in term of physical health, trainnig and airplane maintenanc=
e. -
Julian Taber)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Hey guys:
Arrow Fastener Co. also makes a good hand stapler: Model
JT-21M which uses 1/4", 5/16" , 3/8" and those round-over type
stapels for phone lines. On some practice pieces, the 1/4" seems
to work just fine. Best Regards, Warren.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Model A's & stuff |
HPVSUPPLY wrote:
> Hi There!
>
> Guess it's my turn to quiz everyone! ;-) -- I've been checking
> around my
> area (Central KS) for Model A engines to power our Piet -- finally hit
> some
> paydirt & found a guy not too far away with about a 1/2 dozen of them
> in
> various conditions. 2-3 of them are former combine engines
> (Baldwin-Gleaner
> 1939! another advantage of living in a wheat growing area!) Now for
> the good
> part -- he is asking about $350-$450 each (the going "core charge" in
> our
> area). Does this price sound any good??(high, low or good enough to
> cause a
> stampede to KS! ;-)
> Other engine possiblities around here are Subaru EA-81 (my work car --
> I have
> 2-3 "donor cars" ) & a 2.3L Ford (super pinto?! -- don't know where to
> put the
> turbo!!). I wouldn't mind an "A" powered Piet -- it just depends on
> what the
> budget will allow!
>
> Steve, did you say there was a "Suba" Piet in process or flying out
> your way?
>
Yes. Duane Woolsey of Provo, has built one and it has >5 hours on it.
Being repropped with a steeper pitch blade now. should be flying again
in a month or so. Initial teething problems, but looked like a high
performance combo.
> As for building, I have progressed more on my Peanut scale Piet than
> the big
> one -- only starting on the tail of the full size -- the P-nut has
> fuselege,
> tail & a balsa Model A engine made. We're using the "Improved" plans
> with
> Vi's 3-piece wing (so we can store the wings in the hay loft!) For
> inspiration, I'm only an hour away from Doug Bryant's Piet & there is
> another
> Piet being built by Carroll Shoupe in my wife's home town!
re: peanut scale 3-piece wing....Man if you need a loft to store peanut
scale size wings, you'll need more than a hanger for the full size one!
:)
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Model A's & stuff |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re: Model A's & stuff |
HPVSUPPLY wrote:
> Hi There!
>
> Guess it's my turn to quiz everyone! ;-) -- I've been checking
> around my
> area (Central KS) for Model A engines to power our Piet -- finally hit
> some
> paydirt & found a guy not too far away with about a 1/2 dozen of them
> in
> various conditions. 2-3 of them are former combine engines
> (Baldwin-Gleaner
> 1939! another advantage of living in a wheat growing area!) Now for
> the good
> part -- he is asking about $350-$450 each (the going "core charge" in
> our
> area). Does this price sound any good??(high, low or good enough to
> cause a
> stampede to KS! ;-)
> Other engine possiblities around here are Subaru EA-81 (my work car --
> I have
> 2-3 "donor cars" ) & a 2.3L Ford (super pinto?! -- don't know where to
> put the
> turbo!!). I wouldn't mind an "A" powered Piet -- it just depends on
> what the
> budget will allow!
>
> Steve, did you say there was a "Suba" Piet in process or flying out
> your way?
>
Yes. Duane Woolsey of Provo, has built one and it has >5 hours on it.
Being repropped with a steeper pitch blade now. should be flying again
in a month or so. Initial teething problems, but looked like a high
performance combo.
> As for building, I have progressed more on my Peanut scale Piet than
> the big
> one -- only starting on the tail of the full size -- the P-nut has
> fuselege,
> tail & a balsa Model A engine made. We're using the "Improved" plans
> with
> Vi's 3-piece wing (so we can store the wings in the hay loft!) For
> inspiration, I'm only an hour away from Doug Bryant's Piet & there is
> another
> Piet being built by Carroll Shoupe in my wife's home town!
re: peanut scale 3-piece wing....Man if you need a loft to store peanut
scale size wings, you'll need more than a hanger for the full size one!
:)
Stevee
Just thought I'd add my two cents worth. The old Ford blocks sure are
simple and the technology to rebuild them to better than new
standards is out there. I personally like the large diameter slow
speed prop idea. The thrust disk created is also larger. The
combination of the low rpm and big prop make a unique sound that
matches these unique aircraft. Those large displacement 200 cu.in
Fords make their torque at just the right speed.
John Mc :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
I know squat about Model A Ford engines, but Grant MacLaren
and Howard Henderson could really help. Howard is listed on the
BPAN home page under members & friends e-mail addresses.
If you look closely on the BPAN Grant has created and maintains
a homepage for a huge Ford repro and supply shop somewhere
in the midwest.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Guys:
I am building a long-fuselage Piet at hanger D17A at
Brackett-LaVerne Airport in Southern California. Is anyone else
building a Piet out my way?? If anyone knows, please
contact me at wbnb(at)earthlink.net or (818) 215-2542. Thanks!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Piet Builders Amendment |
Please correct the telephone number to (626) 215-2541. Thanks.
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey) |
| Subject: | Re: Model A's & stuff |
snip
> part -- he is asking about $350-$450 each (the going "core charge" in our
> area). Does this price sound any good??
snip
Like always it depends, I bought an "A" engine with all accessories and
a clutch last year for $150.00. The owner had kept it as a spare engine
and finally decided that he didn't need it.
Bob B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Domenico Bellissimo <dcsBell(at)netcom.ca> |
Rick Rager wrote:
>
> Hi guys:
> My names Rick Rager and am into about 85 hours building my fuselage.
> I live in Wellingto Ks. Hey Mike why not the good old Corvair eng. I've talked
> to Doug Bryant a couple of times and seen his Piet. I know a guy in Ozark
> Arkansas who is running a suba on his Piet. If you want to call me (316)
> 326-5655 I,ll give you his number or any one elses (His a super nice guy but
> I not sure he would want his number on the internet) Any way I'm about ready
> to start my landing gear. The print shows a 48.5" from the top longeron to
> ground.
> does any one know if thats a critical dim or is this just ground clearance
> for the large dia prop for the Model A. I plan on using smaller aircraft
> type tires and a corvair eng so I'll be turning a smaller prop
>
Rick, I just measured mine for you. It's 49.75 inches from the top
longeron to ground. I also used clevland wheels (6X6).Hope this helps
you.
Domenic
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet Builders Amendment |
Warren D. Shoun wrote:
> Please correct the telephone number to (626) 215-2541. Thanks.
>
> Warren
YOu must be referring to Grants list. Email him directly if so.
There is no list to update here.
REgards.
stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
I just received my 3-piece wing plan from Don Pietenpol. I dont have
the original order form I used to get it, so I dont know if I was
supposed to get a full-size wing-rib drawing with the plans. I though
I was. Did anyone else get this or am I hallucinating? Do I need to
make my own?
I wanted to hear from other people who ordered the same thing before
I bothered him with a customer service call! :)
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
I just received my 3-piece wing plan from Don Pietenpol. I dont have
the original order form I used to get it, so I dont know if I was
supposed to get a full-size wing-rib drawing with the plans. I though
I was. Did anyone else get this or am I hallucinating? Do I need to
make my own?
I wanted to hear from other people who ordered the same thing before
I bothered him with a customer service call! :)
Richard
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I just received my 3-piece wing plan from Don Pietenpol. I dont have
> the original order form I used to get it, so I dont know if I was
> supposed to get a full-size wing-rib drawing with the plans. I though
> I was. Did anyone else get this or am I hallucinating? Do I need to
> make my own?
>
> I wanted to hear from other people who ordered the same thing before
> I bothered him with a customer service call! :)
>
> Richard
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
Don't know for sure, but I think not. I have seen the vi kapler
plans (arn't they the same?) and they didn't have one either. Come to
think of it I haven't ever seen a full size drawing of the wing rib. I
have an extra rib, maybe there's a market. You can just plot it on a
piece of plywood and loft it in from the plans.
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
When I ordered my plans from Don I told him to send me whatever he had.
This included a nice letter from him,piet plans, extended fusalage plan,
corvair conversion plans,and one full size rib pattern! And probably some
other things that I don't remember at the moment. The full size rib patern
is well worth the few dollars I paid for it!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry Guyer <cigognes(at)oz.sunflower.org> |
PHIL PECK wrote:
>
> When I ordered my plans from Don I told him to send me whatever he had.
> This included a nice letter from him,piet plans, extended fusalage plan,
> corvair conversion plans,and one full size rib pattern! And probably some
> other things that I don't remember at the moment. The full size rib patern
> is well worth the few dollars I paid for it!!!
I have a set of plans from St Croix, they have the bi-plan modification
but thats all I know about it. I have heard of only one biplane built.
Does any one know of a successful bi-plane ?piet?
jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
I thought there was one available. I'll write and order one (though I
will make my own, too, just for the practice).
> When I ordered my plans from Don I told him to send me whatever he had.
> This included a nice letter from him,piet plans, extended fusalage plan,
> corvair conversion plans,and one full size rib pattern! And probably some
> other things that I don't remember at the moment. The full size rib patern
> is well worth the few dollars I paid for it!!!
>
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
Hi Richard:
I have a full size rib plan in autocad format that I can e-mail
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
Check out my mom & dad's site http://pages.prodigy.com/runway/runway.htm
Thanks
Ken Hannan
Check out my mom dad's site
href"http://pages.prodigy.com/runway/runway.htm">http://pages.prodigy.=
com/runway/runway.htm
Thanks
Ken Hannan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
Richard,i recieved the full size print of the rib from Don Pietenpol,so
maybe he just forgot yours.
.Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
The full size rib plan comes with the supplement plans with the regular
plans or as a $10.00 extra. No it does not come with the 3 piece wing
plan. I have it all from Don.
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I just received my 3-piece wing plan from Don Pietenpol. I dont have
> the original order form I used to get it, so I dont know if I was
> supposed to get a full-size wing-rib drawing with the plans. I though
> I was. Did anyone else get this or am I hallucinating? Do I need to
> make my own?
>
> I wanted to hear from other people who ordered the same thing before
> I bothered him with a customer service call! :)
>
> Richard
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net> |
Doug Hunt wrote:
>
> Richard,i recieved the full size print of the rib from Don Pietenpol,so
> maybe he just forgot yours.
Richard,
I Got mine this way. It's a black and white copy, not a blueprint
rolled up about 8" by 4' very tightly.
I did not realize that it was shipped until I looked into the bottom of
the tube...
Cheers! Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Ulmer <eulmer(at)isd.net> |
| Subject: | Suggested plans for purchase |
I'm in the research phase for a pietenpol construction project right
now. I'm 6'3", 205lbs. I've heard talk about a "long" version
of the Pietenpol, does this have a roomier cockpit? Also, I'd like
to build one with an electrical system. I'm guessing that most people
don't build them with an electrical system, as I havent seen many
pictures with A/C lights or Nav lights. I'm confused
as to the plans I'll need to build. I've seen references to the GN-1,
Dons Plans, some Three Part wing plans, and a long plan version.. What
do all these things mean? Any help or tips from
people in the Minneapolis Area would be really great.
Thanks,
-Eric (612)317-7768Days, (612)821-5064eves.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: Two questions... |
It is made from plans I bought them more than 10 years ago, there were (at
that time) from Kite Industries of Arizona (havent hear from them in years),
at present Gary McGill (?) sells them (maybe is the same because is also
from Glendale, AZ). I have not seen this plans (McGills) but I think they
are the same. There is an add in Sport Aviation's Clasified every so often:
"NEVER BUY ANOTHER PROPELLER- Build our propeller carving machine for $50.00
or less. Made from wood and common hardware. Will make any lenght or pitch
prop. Complete blueprints and instructions.- $15.00
Gary McGill Dpt A-5 PO Box 2566, Glendale, AZ 85311-2566".
My carving machine has gone to several "improvements" for precission in
these years (conterbalance, hinges (sp?), metal table, bigger rolers, etc).
I have already designed 5 props from the Eric Cluttons book, and modified 4
(pitch value), and "copied" more than 50 for the local UL pilots. Its a
great "toy-tool" It is very inexpensive to built the props (use the
recomended wood in USA from the book) there you can built a prop for about
US$ 25.00 to $40.00 including the Resorsinol(r) or the epoxy glue, I recieve
a $ 100.00 "donation" for each (here we can not get sued for a faulty prop
:-) like in the US (we are not used to "disclaimers").
Thanks God all have been great props up to date (Knock on wood :-).
If you built your plane, your engine. Why not built the propeller?
Here we are at 4,097 ft ASL so when we go to sea level (twice a year) in
cross country I take an extra prop for sea level flying, my torque wrench
and safety wire.... all extra is only fun.
With my personal experience, since your 3rd prop they will be almost perfect
(in pitch and in beauty) but since the first one will work fine, only you
will be more "perfectionist" with your work. Please have fun and lots of
patience with the finishing and balance.
I feel like I am making a piece of fine art with each one....
Saludos
Gary Gower
>Gary,
>
>How did you aquire your prop carving pantograph? Does Gary McGill sell=
them
>somewhere?
>
>Thanks,
>Brent Reed
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 3:52 PM
>Subject: Re: Two questions...
>
>
>>Richard,
>>Sport Aviation Magazine, from EAA lists propeller carving in the=
classified
>>section at the end of each issue. Eric Clutton, who I think lives in
>>Tennessee, has a little book on carving your own propeller. If you have a
>>Kitplanes issue with the aircraft directory, December or January issue, I
>>think, look for Eric as the designer of a plane called "Fred." That=
stands
>>for Flying, Roadable something-or-other. It''s a good book with just the
>>right amount of theory and practical information. Good luck!
>
>
>I carve mine (5 props up to date) using this Eric Clutton's book, The=
first
>one was carved complete but is difficult to get both side exactly the same,
>since then all of them were carved only one side, then duplicated using the
>Gary McGill=B4s carving pantograf (sp.), then finished with lots of love=
and
>patience.
>
>Is great to carve, balance and test a propeller....
>
>Wrap Drive is only as interesting as signing your credit card charge :-)
>
>Saludos
>
>Sail
>EAA 280015 1/2 VW trike w/Sabre Sail borrowed
Almost ready!
>EAA Chapter 1039 President
>ggower(at)informador.com.mx ~1,800 VW 2 place "Gtub"(80%)(own design)FAI
>legal
>Guadalajara, Jalisco, MEXICO Ultralight (248 Kg dry)
>
>Chapala Aerodrome Alt 4,997 asl N 20=BA19.506' W 103=BA08.203' (Got the=
GPS!)
>
>"Cuando inducimos a alguien a nuestro deporte debemos ser firmes tambien en
>que mantenga optimo su estado fisico, entrenamiento y aeronave" - Julian
>Taber
>
>(When we involve anyone else in our flying we should be held to a higher
>standard in term of physical health, trainnig and airplane maintenance. -
>Julian Taber)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Suggested plans for purchase |
Dear Eric:
I have gone thru the same issues and the same research. I
purchased every set of plans from anyone who said they had
"Pietenpol plans". Here is what I would recommend. Send $60.00
to Orrin C. Hoopman, 800 17th st. SW, Austin, MN 55912 for his
plans for the "Improved AirCamper". You will receive a standard
set of Bernie's origional plans, plus an addendum for the long
fuselage, which does give you an additional 10" in the fuselage,
longer leg room in the rear cockpit, and details of the wooden
landing gear, and a full size rib drawing. With these plans
and a "modern" engine (Bernie used a Corvair) you will not have
to move the wing back and forth nearly as much to get proper
rigging.
If your soul requires you to worship at the one true
church, you must stop here. If, however, you are curious and
thoughtful about the moving experiences others have encountered in
their search for creative self-expression, order another set of
plans for the GN-1 from John W. Grega at 355 Grand Boulevard,
Bedford OH 44146 for $25.00. Personally, I think his engine
mount is far superior, and there are several ideas that at the
very least will expand your understanding of what you are about
to do.
Lastly, get acquainted with some basic drafting tools and
draw out the numerous detail items before you push the big red
button on your table saw. You will save an enormous amount of
sawdust sweeping, and again, you will have a much better idea
of how this bird goes together.
Please also note that I am just getting started, having only
bought some "real" wood this past week. I also spent many,
many weeks getting information and pouring over the plans,
wondering how you put an angled 3/4" joint up against a 1" piece
and then get a smooth fit with 1/8" plywood. Have fun and
become a Zen priest of patience and excellence in your work.
Best Regards, Warren.
Eric Ulmer wrote:
> I'm in the research phase for a pietenpol construction project right
> now. I'm 6'3", 205lbs. I've heard talk about a "long" version
> of the Pietenpol, does this have a roomier cockpit? Also, I'd like
> to build one with an electrical system. I'm guessing that most people
> don't build them with an electrical system, as I havent seen many
> pictures with A/C lights or Nav lights. I'm confused
> as to the plans I'll need to build. I've seen references to the GN-1,
> Dons Plans, some Three Part wing plans, and a long plan version.. What
> do all these things mean? Any help or tips from
> people in the Minneapolis Area would be really great.
>
> Thanks,
> -Eric (612)317-7768Days, (612)821-5064eves.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Suggested plans for purchase |
>I'm in the research phase for a pietenpol construction project right
>now. I'm 6'3", 205lbs. I've heard talk about a "long" version
>of the Pietenpol, does this have a roomier cockpit?
Eric- Yes. You get about 2" more leg room in each cockpit and
about 5" more aft of that. I'm 5'9" and I have the short fuse and
wouldn't mind more room.
> I'm confused
>as to the plans I'll need to build. I've seen references to the GN-1,
>Dons Plans, some Three Part wing plans, and a long plan version..
All of your questions are answered on Grant MacLaren's Buckeye
Pietenpol Association home page under 'Frequently asked
questions' :
ffff,0000,0000http://users.aol.com/bpanews/faq.html
The GN-1 was designed by John Grega here in Bedford Ohio and
intended to use many Cub parts. (when Cub parts used to be
cheap) From a distance you couldn't tell a Piet and a Grega
apart, but there are differences. Grega advertised his plans in
Sport Av and other places for only $25 !!!! while Bernard
Pietenpol was much less active in advertising during that period.
They are both nicknamed 'Air Camper' thus all the confusion
to newcomers. (understood) At a local fly-in last year John was
there and someone pointed me out and told him I was building
a Piet. He asked why I didn't pick his plans. I told him that I
wanted to be able to move my wing fore and aft to adjust my
CG rather than change engine mount lengths, add ballast, etc.
On the Piet you can move the wing to get your CG just right
for whatever configuration you dream up: ie, Model A, Corvair,
A-65, Subaru, LeBlond, Fiesta, 0-200, and combine that with
other things like: tailwheel, no tailwheel, wing fuel tank, nose fuel
tank, or both. The Grega wing doesn't move that way.
I've flown Joe Leonard's GN-1 here, and it flies just fine. Not
trying to talk you into or out of anything, just to help out your
research. All the best , Mike C.
ps- I should have asked John how come he's never built one of
his own Grega's.
pss- you want to see a nice Grega, check out Jim Sury in TX.
Beauty.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Suggested plans for purchase |
Quite a few pics of it: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet
most of the ones with the * are the Grega plane.
> ps- I should have asked John how come he's never built one of
>
> his own Grega's.
>
> pss- you want to see a nice Grega, check out Jim Sury in TX.
>
> Beauty.
Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com
Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Southwick <ksouth(at)accesscomm.net> |
Love the newsgroup, but I need to unsubscribe for awhile. I up to my
ears with computer work. When I catch up I'll resubscribe.
Thanks,
Kevin Southwick
________________________________________________________________________________
Can someone please tell me what kind of program to use to open that RIBS
file?
Thanks,
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 5:21 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RIBS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com> |
Please...
don't attach such big files to mail messages.
It takes a looong time to download, and is of no use to me at all.
Maybe things like this could be described in email, and made available
to those interested?
Wink
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | scherer2(at)airmail.net (Glenn Scherer) |
>Please...
>don't attach such big files to mail messages.
>
>It takes a looong time to download, and is of no use to me at all.
>
>Maybe things like this could be described in email, and made available
>to those interested?
>
>Wink
I have to second this motion, this series tied me up for an hour and a
half.
Glenn
| | Glenn Scherer
__|
~~~: Farmersville, TX USA
\
) scherer2(at)airmail.net
\/\ /
\_(
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com> |
>Please...
>don't attach such big files to mail messages.
>
>It takes a looong time to download, and is of no use to me at all.
>
>Maybe things like this could be described in email, and made available
>to those interested?
>
>Wink
>
The usual thing done with such things is to put them somewhere they can be
retireved from, like a ftp site or the Pietenpol web pages, and then send an
email to the group telling them BRIEFLY what it is and where it can be found.
If it is what I think it may be (a CAD drawing of a rib?) I am interested in
it. However, it didn't seem to make it through the email system. I
regularly get files via email but apparently this one was just too big.
Most systems have a limit on the size of attached files. Another reason to
avoid sending large files this way.
Does anyone have a place for such files where others could get them?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
I agree with Richard . the only time I have trouble with my browser is when
I subscribed to this discussion group. And it usually happens when I try
to read a message from some computer whiz
> From: Richard Winkel <rwinkel(at)i2k.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: RIBS
> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:12 PM
>
> Please...
> don't attach such big files to mail messages.
>
> It takes a looong time to download, and is of no use to me at all.
>
> Maybe things like this could be described in email, and made available
> to those interested?
>
> Wink
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Suggested plans for purchase |
I used the longer fuselage, hung a heavy (Ford Fiesta) engine up front and
moved the rear cockpit back two inches, giving me ample room; weight and
balance was right on the money with the cabanes straight.
One of the reasons for the engine was its electical system. I can't move five
miles without bumping into a TCA, er, class B, controlled fields and many
other aircraft. So I've got strobes to be seen, nav lights to stay out late,
and a com radio and a transponder to sightsee the metropolitan area. It adds
up to freedom in the northeast. It also adds up to 815 pounds. I gross at
1250. Takeoffs are over 600 feet.
Use Bernard Pietenpol's plans, they're great. Vi Kapler's wing is helpful.
Grega's plans are useful for ideas and later for placemats.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | RE 3 piece wing drawings |
Just a suggestion on the 3 piece wing drawing from Don Pietenpol/Kapler.It
shows the cabane upper fitting cunstructed using "butt welds" normally not
recomended in aircraft constuction.I elected to use similar fittings,but
built with 2 "U" shaped fittings wrapping around one another and then edge
welded,so even if a weld should fail the fittings are held captive. Just
food for thought. Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Suggested plans for purchase |
> From: GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase
> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 11:58 PM
>
> I used the longer fuselage, hung a heavy (Ford Fiesta) engine up front
and
> moved the rear cockpit back two inches, giving me ample room; weight and
> balance was right on the money with the cabanes straight.
>
> One of the reasons for the engine was its electical system. I can't move
five
> miles without bumping into a TCA, er, class B, controlled fields and many
> other aircraft. So I've got strobes to be seen, nav lights to stay out
late,
> and a com radio and a transponder to sightsee the metropolitan area. It
adds
> up to freedom in the northeast. It also adds up to 815 pounds. I gross at
> 1250. Takeoffs are over 600 feet.
>
> Use Bernard Pietenpol's plans, they're great. Vi Kapler's wing is
helpful.
> Grega's plans are useful for ideas and later for placemats.
How is the climb and cruise with the fiesta engine? Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
test
test
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
test
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu |
| Subject: | Re: More alternative wood |
IN:piet(at)byu.edu Topic: Re: More Alternative wood Piet group:
A couple weeks ago several were talking about alternative woods to
use. Someone mentioned a new company described in the June, Sport
Aviation -- R.A.W. LLC, on the West Coast. I have had two
> Dear Sir: > > I saw the description of your new company in
the June issue of Sport > Aviation, > and would like to receive some
information from you. I need shipping > info. > (requirements,
etc.) and current prices. I am most interested in > Port Orford
cedar, > Alaska Yellow Cedar, and Sitka Spruce. I am building a
Pietenpol > and am looking > for wood for the fuselage and spars. I
may not need the longest > stock because > I am planning to laminate
the spars. > > If you can reply by email that would be great, or you
can send info. > by mail. My > address is: John Fay >
20,000 board feet of Alaskan Yellow cedar, and 5,000 board feet of sitka
spruce. Spar quality stock runs $5.00 to $7.00 per board foot (Long
lengths) and $2.50 to $3.50 per board foot (Short Lengths) All material
is graded either to Mil-Spec 6073 or British Aerospace standard. If you
send me a list of sizes, I will be happy to quote you a delivered price.
(The next day I sent these 5 questions and here are his answers.)
Mr. Fay; I hope these answers clear things up for you....... >
1) Is there a difference in price for the Alaskan yellow cedar vs sitka
> 3) Is there a difference in price per foot for 8 footers, 10',
> 4) How wide are they? Are they 6" nominal width, rough on both
Any width you like from 3" to 24". Square cut on both edges
> 5) What thicknesses are available? 5/4", 7/4", 2" ? Is there
Any thickness from 1/4" up to 4". There is no difference in cost.
This is the end of my exchange with RAW. I have a very good article
from the Sept., 84 issue of Sport Aviation about alternative woods
written by Eugene Parker of Medford ,Oregon (pp.57-61). At the end of
the article he lists Port Orford Cedar as his #1 choice for aircraft
construction, Alaskan Yellow Cedar as choice#2, and Sitka Spruce as
choice #3. Very interesting. (If anyone wants a copy, send me a SASE
Has anyone had any experience with this company. I am not really clear
as to the relative weight of the Al. yel. cd. compared to Sit. spr. I
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More alternative wood -Reply |
This is the place where I bought my spars. Quality was very good.
Ordered 1" x 6" x 16' planks. Cost was $ 7.50 / lin. ft. Grain runout is less
than one inch on the entire 16' length.
Shipped via Airborne Express by air to Minneapolis for less than $ 100.00
One word of caution, make sure you specify the FINISHED dimension of
the wood you want. I didn't and my 1" x 6" were shipped 13/16" x 5 3/4".
I was planning to rip an inch off the planks to use as longerons but that
wasn't possible with the size they shipped me.
They would have taken them back minus the freight cost. I decided to
keep them and build up the spar caps to the plan dimensions. Will work
out just fine.
I recommend this as a source of spruce, just be specific when telling
them what size you need.
Greg Cardinal
>>> 12/11/97 07:25pm >>>
IN:piet(at)byu.edu Topic: Re: More Alternative wood Piet group:
A couple weeks ago several were talking about alternative woods to
use. Someone mentioned a new company described in the June, Sport
Aviation -- R.A.W. LLC, on the West Coast. I have had two
> Dear Sir: > > I saw the description of your new company in
the June issue of Sport > Aviation, > and would like to receive some
information from you. I need shipping > info. > (requirements,
etc.) and current prices. I am most interested in > Port Orford
cedar, > Alaska Yellow Cedar, and Sitka Spruce. I am building a
Pietenpol > and am looking > for wood for the fuselage and spars. I
may not need the longest > stock because > I am planning to laminate
the spars. > > If you can reply by email that would be great, or you
can send info. > by mail. My > address is: John Fay >
20,000 board feet of Alaskan Yellow cedar, and 5,000 board feet of sitka
spruce. Spar quality stock runs $5.00 to $7.00 per board foot (Long
lengths) and $2.50 to $3.50 per board foot (Short Lengths) All material
is graded either to Mil-Spec 6073 or British Aerospace standard. If you
send me a list of sizes, I will be happy to quote you a delivered price.
(The next day I sent these 5 questions and here are his answers.)
Mr. Fay; I hope these answers clear things up for you....... >
1) Is there a difference in price for the Alaskan yellow cedar vs sitka
> 3) Is there a difference in price per foot for 8 footers, 10',
> 4) How wide are they? Are they 6" nominal width, rough on both
Any width you like from 3" to 24". Square cut on both edges
> 5) What thicknesses are available? 5/4", 7/4", 2" ? Is there
Any thickness from 1/4" up to 4". There is no difference in cost.
This is the end of my exchange with RAW. I have a very good article
from the Sept., 84 issue of Sport Aviation about alternative woods
written by Eugene Parker of Medford ,Oregon (pp.57-61). At the end of
the article he lists Port Orford Cedar as his #1 choice for aircraft
construction, Alaskan Yellow Cedar as choice#2, and Sitka Spruce as
choice #3. Very interesting. (If anyone wants a copy, send me a SASE
Has anyone had any experience with this company. I am not really clear
as to the relative weight of the Al. yel. cd. compared to Sit. spr. I
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: More alternative wood |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu |
| Subject: | Re: Re: More alternative wood |
IN:piet(at)byu.edu Topic: Re: More Alternative wood Piet group:
A couple weeks ago several were talking about alternative woods to
use. Someone mentioned a new company described in the June, Sport
Aviation -- R.A.W. LLC, on the West Coast. I have had two
> Dear Sir: > > I saw the description of your new company in
the June issue of Sport > Aviation, > and would like to receive some
information from you. I need shipping > info. > (requirements,
etc.) and current prices. I am most interested in > Port Orford
cedar, > Alaska Yellow Cedar, and Sitka Spruce. I am building a
Pietenpol > and am looking > for wood for the fuselage and spars. I
may not need the longest > stock because > I am planning to laminate
the spars. > > If you can reply by email that would be great, or you
can send info. > by mail. My > address is: John Fay >
20,000 board feet of Alaskan Yellow cedar, and 5,000 board feet of sitka
spruce. Spar quality stock runs $5.00 to $7.00 per board foot (Long
lengths) and $2.50 to $3.50 per board foot (Short Lengths) All material
is graded either to Mil-Spec 6073 or British Aerospace standard. If you
send me a list of sizes, I will be happy to quote you a delivered price.
(The next day I sent these 5 questions and here are his answers.)
Mr. Fay; I hope these answers clear things up for you....... >
1) Is there a difference in price for the Alaskan yellow cedar vs sitka
> 3) Is there a difference in price per foot for 8 footers, 10',
> 4) How wide are they? Are they 6" nominal width, rough on both
Any width you like from 3" to 24". Square cut on both edges
> 5) What thicknesses are available? 5/4", 7/4", 2" ? Is there
Any thickness from 1/4" up to 4". There is no difference in cost.
This is the end of my exchange with RAW. I have a very good article
from the Sept., 84 issue of Sport Aviation about alternative woods
written by Eugene Parker of Medford ,Oregon (pp.57-61). At the end of
the article he lists Port Orford Cedar as his #1 choice for aircraft
construction, Alaskan Yellow Cedar as choice#2, and Sitka Spruce as
choice #3. Very interesting. (If anyone wants a copy, send me a SASE
Has anyone had any experience with this company. I am not really clear
as to the relative weight of the Al. yel. cd. compared to Sit. spr. I
John: I just went to the library and looked up my favourite wood
book. "Understanding wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley Taunton Press 1980
ISBN # 0-918804-05-01.
Mr. Hoadley writes about wood in a technical mode but in a manner
that is easy to understand. He has compiled a lot of information that
is useful to any of us building out of wood. I quickly looked
through the charts and tables and found the strength of Alaska Cedar
to be slightly greater than Sitka Spruce. I didn't find a weight
comparison although the moisture content of Alaska Cedar is less as a
green wood wich would tend to make one think it would be lighter as
well.
Sounds like a good place to deal. Have fun! John Mc :-}
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> |
I have 2 A-65's with useable cranks but I need four serviceable cylinders
either standard or .015 over. I'd like to buy some midtime cylinders with
pistons. Can anyone help me find such or sell some to me? I'm also in
the market for a midtime engine. I'm also interested in buying individual
over tolerance standard cylinders---Bill.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | djscott(at)heartland.bradley.edu (David Scott) |
I just received my set of plans about two weeks ago and yes, Don
does send the full size rib print. It is easy to lose, though, as
I found that it fell to the floor when I first unwrapped my package.
##
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Wing Plan and Plans in general. |
Ken, I got the CAD file you sent to me. Awesome. Are you planning on
doing any other drawings on CAD? (I had no luck with the files you
posted to the group. What were they and what application?) Now I am
thinking about making a 1/4 scale piet as an introduction to the concept
of building my own.
When I first started reading about the Piet and following this
discussion group, one of the ideas that really appealed to me was the
idea that the Piet is "everyman's plane." Most of the people who are
selling plans are doing so at VERY moderate cost. Are they just trying
to cover the cost of the paper and shipping? If so, I would like to
propose the following to the group. Why not make the plans readily
available via FTP on the INTERNET? [If Don and Orrin are providing
plans as a profit center, I wouldn't proceed with this idea. My intent
would not be to hurt anyone's business, it's already tough enough to
make money in this business.]
This discussion group has tons of experience and knowledge. I just
thought that it would be nice if the drawings were updated to CAD.
Builders manuals and recommendations could be made from the wealth of
experience and pictures everyone has. This discussion group could
evaluate the drawings and materials and continue to answer questions.
Anybody interested in discussing this idea further? Steve, what are
your thoughts?
Carl J. Hixon
Project Engineer_______________________
Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544
Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | RE: Wing Plan and Plans in general. |
I must say, I LIKE this idea. If it would not be hurting anyones
business, I would like to volunteer to help make CAD drawings of the
plans. I have experience with AutoCAD and others (see my 3D Pietenpol
at my website).
Can someone who knows them contact Orrin, Don P, etc... about whether
this would be appropriate? I can speak for anyone but myself, so this
gets _my_ vote at least!
Richard D.
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/
> propose the following to the group. Why not make the plans readily
> available via FTP on the INTERNET? [If Don and Orrin are providing
> plans as a profit center, I wouldn't proceed with this idea. My intent
> would not be to hurt anyone's business, it's already tough enough to
> make money in this business.]
>
> This discussion group has tons of experience and knowledge. I just
> thought that it would be nice if the drawings were updated to CAD.
> Builders manuals and recommendations could be made from the wealth of
> experience and pictures everyone has. This discussion group could
> evaluate the drawings and materials and continue to answer questions.
> Anybody interested in discussing this idea further? Steve, what are
> your thoughts?
> Carl J. Hixon
> Project Engineer_______________________
> Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121
> Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544
> Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net> |
Just got this post from the rec.aviation.restoration news group and
thought this list would be interested based on recent items
- - - SNIP - - -
Spruce kits
We were fortunate recently in obtaining a large quanity of sitka
spruce. We have 25 Years experience suppling quality sitka spruce for
ultra lights. The Sitka spruce is the highest quality aircraft grade
to be found in the world. All material is milled to your specs. We
have supplied kits to numerous customers all over the world.
Western Aircraft Supplies
623 Markerville Rd. S.E.
Calgary Alberta, T2E 5X1
Canada
Bus ph 403-275-3513
Res ph 403-276-3087
Email wbeck(at)nucleus.com
* E-Mail glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net Procurement Services Division *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca> |
| Subject: | RE: Wing Plan and Plans in general. |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Wing Plan and Plans in general. |
Ken, I got the CAD file you sent to me. Awesome. Are you planning on
doing any other drawings on CAD? (I had no luck with the files you
posted to the group. What were they and what application?) Now I am
thinking about making a 1/4 scale piet as an introduction to the concept
of building my own.
When I first started reading about the Piet and following this
discussion group, one of the ideas that really appealed to me was the
idea that the Piet is "everyman's plane." Most of the people who are
selling plans are doing so at VERY moderate cost. Are they just trying
to cover the cost of the paper and shipping? If so, I would like to
propose the following to the group. Why not make the plans readily
available via FTP on the INTERNET? [If Don and Orrin are providing
plans as a profit center, I wouldn't proceed with this idea. My intent
would not be to hurt anyone's business, it's already tough enough to
make money in this business.]
This discussion group has tons of experience and knowledge. I just
thought that it would be nice if the drawings were updated to CAD.
Builders manuals and recommendations could be made from the wealth of
experience and pictures everyone has. This discussion group could
evaluate the drawings and materials and continue to answer questions.
Anybody interested in discussing this idea further? Steve, what are
your thoughts?
Carl J. Hixon
Project Engineer_______________________
Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544
Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com
Great Idea Carl! I agree however that the people who are presently
selling the plans should be asked to give thier approval first. I
find this Discussion group very informative to the point that I'm
considering getting an E-mail address at home. Its hard to only
browse at noon and coffee times.
John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)west.gecems.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sitka Spruce |
Hi,
Being from Calgary, I can vouch for these guys. It's a one man operation
located in a small hangar at YYC (Calgary intl.). Gene (I think) is a
pretty good guy and the last time I talked to him he had a couple of
thousand board feet of S. Spruce. He provides complete wood kits for most
popular designs and even builds up spars and the like for certain planes.
When I was there last year picking up my spars (that he milled to spec
and even put the top and bottom bevels on for me) he was building up a
GP-4 spar on his bench for another customer. He's also built a couple of
planes which gives him an understanding of what we need. He's
opinionated, but definitely knows his stuff.
Ken.
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote:
> Just got this post from the rec.aviation.restoration news group and
> thought this list would be interested based on recent items
>
> - - - SNIP - - -
>
> Spruce kits
> We were fortunate recently in obtaining a large quanity of sitka
> spruce. We have 25 Years experience suppling quality sitka spruce for
> ultra lights. The Sitka spruce is the highest quality aircraft grade
> to be found in the world. All material is milled to your specs. We
> have supplied kits to numerous customers all over the world.
>
> Western Aircraft Supplies
> 623 Markerville Rd. S.E.
> Calgary Alberta, T2E 5X1
> Canada
>
> Bus ph 403-275-3513
> Res ph 403-276-3087
>
> Email wbeck(at)nucleus.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
>Glad you liked the lights look at the lower right part of your screen,and
>click on the little green and red icon and the lights will shut off.
> Doug..
>
>
One Question:
Does it run under windows 3.x ?
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
> From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: RE.LIGHTS
> Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 7:12 PM
>
> >Glad you liked the lights look at the lower right part of your
October 14, 1997 - December 12, 1997
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ac