Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ad

December 12, 1997 - February 04, 1998



      screen,and
      > >click on the little green and red icon and the lights will shut off.
      > >   Doug..
      > >
      > >
      > One Question:
      > 
      > Does it run under windows 3.x  ?
      > 
      > Saludos
      > 
      > Gary Gower
      
      RE.LIGHTS---
        I wish i could answer your question,but i do not know if it will run on
      3.x,it was forwarded to me by  a friend.Maybe someone more versed in
      computers could answer it for you.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: Sitka Spruce
Date: Dec 12, 1997
> From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)west.gecems.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Sitka Spruce > Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 5:33 PM > > Hi, > > Being from Calgary, I can vouch for these guys. It's a one man operation > located in a small hangar at YYC (Calgary intl.). Gene (I think) is a > pretty good guy and the last time I talked to him he had a couple of > thousand board feet of S. Spruce. He provides complete wood kits for most > popular designs and even builds up spars and the like for certain planes. > When I was there last year picking up my spars (that he milled to spec > and even put the top and bottom bevels on for me) he was building up a > GP-4 spar on his bench for another customer. He's also built a couple of > planes which gives him an understanding of what we need. He's > opinionated, but definitely knows his stuff. > > Ken. > > On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote: > > > Just got this post from the rec.aviation.restoration news group and > > thought this list would be interested based on recent items > > > > - - - SNIP - - - > > > > Spruce kits > > We were fortunate recently in obtaining a large quanity of sitka > > spruce. We have 25 Years experience suppling quality sitka spruce for > > ultra lights. The Sitka spruce is the highest quality aircraft grade > > to be found in the world. All material is milled to your specs. We > > have supplied kits to numerous customers all over the world. > > > > Western Aircraft Supplies > > 623 Markerville Rd. S.E. > > Calgary Alberta, T2E 5X1 > > Canada > > > > Bus ph 403-275-3513 > > Res ph 403-276-3087 > > > > Email wbeck(at)nucleus.com > > -----------I also purchased my spar material from Western Aircraft Supplies and am happy with the quality,he also carries an epoxy that is nearly odourless,though is slow to set,but very strong. ---Doug Hunt.. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase
Date: Dec 13, 1997
The climb with the Fiesta varies from 200 ft/min with 2 people and 20 gallons of fuel to 700 ft/min when I'm alone with only a few gallons. There isn't much of a cruise window: from 62 to 66 (mph). Below that it begins to descend, mushing down below 40 to a full stall. Full throttle in level flight will produce 70 mph. Higher speds can be obtrained by aiming at a patch of ground. I believe that my large flat nose a la Jenny produces more drag than Bernie's arrangement. Jim Malley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase
Date: Dec 13, 1997
> From: GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase > Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 9:51 AM > > The climb with the Fiesta varies from 200 ft/min with 2 people and 20 gallons > of fuel to 700 ft/min when I'm alone with only a few gallons. > > There isn't much of a cruise window: from 62 to 66 (mph). Below that it begins > to descend, mushing down below 40 to a full stall. Full throttle in level > flight will produce 70 mph. Higher speds can be obtrained by aiming at a patch > of ground. I believe that my large flat nose a la Jenny produces more drag > than Bernie's arrangement. > > Jim Malley ________ Thanks for the response Jim,is your Piet the one that was in Kitplanes a couple of years ago?If so i sure liked the burnished finish on the cowling. How is the reliability of the Fiesta engine? Doug Hunt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu
Subject: to Greg Cardinal
Date: Dec 13, 1997
Greg, Thanks for the info. on RAW and what I need to remember when ordering wood from them. We're busy here figuring exactly what we need and what dimensions we should order. I'm even finding this to be a lot of fun. Thanks again, John Fay (email aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Sitka Spruce
Date: Dec 13, 1997
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)west.gecems.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Sitka Spruce
Hi, Being from Calgary, I can vouch for these guys. It's a one man operation located in a small hangar at YYC (Calgary intl.). Gene (I think) {Jean is the spelling the name is french pronounced like our Canadian PM}is a pretty good guy {I agree} and the last time I talked to him he had a couple of thousand board feet of S. Spruce. He provides complete wood kits for most popular designs and even builds up spars and the like for certain planes. When I was there last year picking up my spars (that he milled to spec and even put the top and bottom bevels on for me) he was building up a GP-4 spar on his bench for another customer. He's also built a couple of planes which gives him an understanding of what we need. He's opinionated, but{aren't we all} definitely knows his stuff. Ken. On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote: > Just got this post from the rec.aviation.restoration news group and > thought this list would be interested based on recent items > > - - - SNIP - - - > > Spruce kits > We were fortunate recently in obtaining a large quanity of sitka > spruce. We have 25 Years experience suppling quality sitka spruce for > ultra lights. The Sitka spruce is the highest quality aircraft grade > to be found in the world. All material is milled to your specs. We > have supplied kits to numerous customers all over the world. > > Western Aircraft Supplies > 623 Markerville Rd. S.E. > Calgary Alberta, T2E 5X1 > Canada > > Bus ph 403-275-3513 > Res ph 403-276-3087 > > Email wbeck(at)nucleus.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
AirCampr(at)aol.com wrote: > > I have pretty nearly decided on using the Corvair engine in my Piet, BUT... > I am really attatched to the look of the short, original fuselage. I think > the longer fuselage makes the plane look too... something... I just dont > like it. It's not as quaint. Can't really describe what I mean. Is it > possible to use the Corvair engine AND use the short fuselage? Can the CG be > made to be in the right place without too much trouble? I try to save all questions and responses regarding Piet construction in a special folder. I have no responses to this question. Did I miss something? Thanks -Bob Bailey- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Walter Lom Aircraft Engines
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Hello List! I have seen some recent ads for Walter Lom Aircraft Engines. These are four cylinder inverted aircooled engines. I called tham and they do offer a 65 HP engine. I presume these are from a former Eastern Block country. Does anyone know anything about these engines? They ought to be a natural for the Piet. Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
I've been wondering lately about engine weights and C of G. I understand that the wing on the Peitenpol can be shifted to make the weight and balance work. Would those of us that have completed thier aircraft post the weights of the various engine combinations? Lets see now, there are A Fords, B Fords, Corvairs, Contientals, Lycomings, Franklins, Subarus, VW NOT!, etc..... I would really help some of us decide on what engine to choose as there is more to consider than just availability and price. Finished weights would also help. Thanks John Mc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: More alternative wood -Reply
Date: Dec 15, 1997
In the talk about wood it occured to me that you could save a fortune on spars simply by ordering spars from short lengths (12 or evern 10 feet) and scarfing on the last foot or two, since the under 12ft lengths are so much cheaper. Anybody done that? John Kahn Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Robert M. Bailey wrote: > AirCampr(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > I have pretty nearly decided on using the Corvair engine in my Piet, > BUT... > > I am really attatched to the look of the short, original fuselage. I > think > > the longer fuselage makes the plane look too... something... I just > dont > > like it. It's not as quaint. Can't really describe what I mean. Is > it > > possible to use the Corvair engine AND use the short fuselage? Can > the CG be > > made to be in the right place without too much trouble? > > I try to save all questions and responses regarding Piet construction > in > a special folder. I have no responses to this question. Did I miss > something? > Thanks -Bob Bailey- I used the short fuse and a continetal. should not be a problem. Stevee. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
McNarry, John wrote: > I've been wondering lately about engine weights and C of G. I > understand that the wing on the Peitenpol can be shifted to make the > weight and balance work. Would those of us that have completed thier > aircraft post the weights of the various engine combinations? Lets > see now, there are A Fords, B Fords, Corvairs, Contientals, > Lycomings, Franklins, Subarus, VW NOT!, etc..... I would really help > some of us decide on what engine to choose as there is more to > consider than just availability and price. Finished weights would > also help. > > Thanks John Mc. Check out the cg article on grants piet page. It is something like what you describe. Steve (short fuse, all doug fir, A-65, wing back nearly 6", 620lbs) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: More alternative wood -Reply
Date: Dec 15, 1997
John Kahn wrote: > In the talk about wood it occured to me that you > could save a fortune on spars simply by ordering spars > from short lengths (12 or evern 10 feet) and scarfing on > the last foot or two, since the under 12ft lengths are so > much cheaper. Anybody done that? > > John Kahn > Bombardier Inc. Not exactly, but instead, I made my wing panels about 12'6" and made my center section 4' and built in a larger gas tank.Works great with the same three piece wing fittings. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Scarfing
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Could someone please describe the scarfing process. I'm wondering what tools are needed, how difficult and time consuming it is, and how likely one is to make a sound joint load bearing joint. Thanks Brent Reed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
So, if I were to use a Corvair, what kind of modifications would I be making with the short fuse? extended motor mount, ballast (yuk!), wing moved aft, etc?? > I used the short fuse and a continetal. should not be a problem. > > Stevee. > > > > I have pretty nearly decided on using the Corvair engine in my Piet, > > BUT... > > > I am really attatched to the look of the short, original fuselage. I > > think > > > the longer fuselage makes the plane look too... something... I just > > dont > > > like it. It's not as quaint. Can't really describe what I mean. Is > > it > > > possible to use the Corvair engine AND use the short fuselage? Can > > the CG be > > > made to be in the right place without too much trouble? > > > > I try to save all questions and responses regarding Piet construction > > in > > a special folder. I have no responses to this question. Did I miss > > something? > > Thanks -Bob Bailey- > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Scarfing
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Dear Brent: On page 44 & 45 of Tony Bingeles's book "The Sportplane Builder" is an excellent discussion of the process and a deatiled drawing for building a great bench-top tool for doing scarf joints. I am finding a great number of other helpful hints in his books...all available from our EAA at (414) 426-4800. Best Regards, Warren. Brent Reed wrote: > Could someone please describe the scarfing process. I'm wondering what > tools are needed, how difficult and time consuming it is, and how likely one > is to make a sound joint load bearing joint. > > Thanks > Brent Reed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com>
Subject: MODEL AIRPLANES
Date: Dec 15, 1997
please check out my mom & dad's web page http://pages.prodigy.com/runway/runway.htm Thanks Ken Hannan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: MODEL AIRPLANES
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Is this an advertisement or what? It keeps showing up on the list... hmmmmm.... > please check out my mom & dad's web page > > http://pages.prodigy.com/runway/runway.htm > > > > > Thanks > > Ken Hannan > > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Free Flight page
Date: Dec 15, 1997
I just went to the 'ad' page. GREAT info about Free Flight a/c! Kudos! However, I was unable to find any Pietenpols. :( Is there supposed to be one? If so please let me know, so I can buy/download it! If not, can you get a FF Piet? Thanks! ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Richard DeCosta wrote: > So, if I were to use a Corvair, what kind of modifications would I be > making with the short fuse? extended motor mount, ballast (yuk!), > wing moved aft, etc?? Unless you have about #250 ahead of the firewall on the short fuse you will have to do something maybe everything listed above. I did all three. Stevee. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Well it's good to know at least, that it can be done! :) > Unless you have about #250 ahead of the firewall on the short fuse you > will have to do something maybe everything listed above. > > I did all three. >> Richard DeCosta wrote: >> > > So, if I were to use a Corvair, what kind of modifications would > > be making with the short fuse? extended motor mount, ballast > > (yuk!), wing moved aft, etc?? ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: on nails and staples -Reply
Date: Dec 15, 1997
>Greg, > >How did you set up to boil the cap strips? > I found it easier to just drop them in a tub of water and let them soak overnight. If I was in a real hurry, I would use boiling water and it would only take about 20 minutes. Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Yeah, Howard Levy of Kitplanes did a nice job. I finished the aircraft in 1989, and first flew it 1990. After some overheating problems were corrected it has flown steadily since. Total time is now 320 hours with no problems with the engine. Most flights are short (under a half hour), but we have gone from New Jersey to Wisconsin twice and up to Maine once as well. Jim Malley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase
Date: Dec 15, 1997
Where in Maine did you fly to? I live in Portland. > Yeah, Howard Levy of Kitplanes did a nice job. > > I finished the aircraft in 1989, and first flew it 1990. After some > overheating problems were corrected it has flown steadily since. Total time is > now 320 hours with no problems with the engine. Most flights are short (under > a half hour), but we have gone from New Jersey to Wisconsin twice and up to > Maine once as well. > > Jim Malley > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net>
Subject: Re: Free Flight page
Date: Dec 16, 1997
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > it! If not, can you get a FF Piet? Thanks! A small free flight 13" span rubber power model Piet is available from Peck Polymers at better hobby shops or via mail order (check model magazine ads for address) Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net>
Subject: Re: on nails and staples -Reply
Date: Dec 16, 1997
Dean Dayton wrote: > > >Greg, > > > >How did you set up to boil the cap strips? > > > I found it easier to just drop them in a tub of water and let them soak > overnight. If I was in a real hurry, I would use boiling water and it > would only take about 20 minutes. > I'm using a 4" diameter piece of PCV pipe about 36" long with a cap on one end. Fill about 2/3 with really hot water stick about 6-8 cap strips in there for half an hour and then clamp in a bending jig overnight. You now have enough top strips to keep you busy all week. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Fuselage Length
Date: Dec 16, 1997
John, With the long fus. 635 empty C-65. Wing tipped back 3 1/2in I figure CG is 17in back from LE with 160lb pilot. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Suggested plans for purchase
Date: Dec 16, 1997
Jim, Where are you keeping your plane? We are just up in PA. It might be neat to fly down this spring. I haven't been doing any long distance flying with the Piet at all. Mostly the hour before dark is best. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Tony Bingelis
Date: Dec 16, 1997
>Dear Brent:> On page 44 & 45 of Tony Bingeles's book "The Sportplane Builder" is an excellent discussion of the process...... What Warren says here holds true with all of Tony's tips on how to build homebuilt airplanes. That guy's books are really worth it. If somebody doesn't know what to get any of you guys for Christmas, this is it. Can't say enough about Tony B. MC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Dare I look?
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Has the mail storm ended? I've terminated the users sending CAD RIB drawings. They have flooded mine and nearly 100 others Mailboxes to capacity. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <glhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net>
Subject: Re: Dare I look?
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Has the mail storm ended? I sure hope so - Thanks for all your work Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: OK People
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Allright. Lets all sit down for a little chat. DONT DO THAT AGAIN!! number 1 --You will kill nearly *ANY* discussion list if you post a 6 meg file and try to have it redistributed. Most peoples mailboxes have a limit and according to the error that I recieved back we flooded many peoples mailboxes and sunk a few mail servers with the RIBS Cad drawing. Never, never post large files to a distribution or news list. This is usenet 101 folks. You send a message saying you have it and the ftp site where to get it or email directly on request. If you limit yourself to about 50K you should be alright. This problem shut down our server most of the day while I went through by hand weeding out the problem messages, not a simple task when you have to sort through hundreds of cryptic message id's. Then when you think you get it done you find it has stuck on another one rebroadcasting to the world. Number 2 -- If you want to complain kindly *REMOVE* the offending large file *before* you reply. If not you become another offender yourself and your *complaint* gets redistributed behind the problem message. USENET 101. Any Questions? Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ernest l. hagness" <ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net>
Subject: Re: OK People
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Allright. > > Lets all sit down for a little chat. > > DONT DO THAT AGAIN!! > > number 1 --You will kill nearly *ANY* discussion list if you post a 6 > meg file and try to have it redistributed. Most peoples mailboxes have > a limit and according to the error that I recieved back we flooded many > peoples mailboxes and sunk a few mail servers with the RIBS Cad drawing. > Never, never post large files to a distribution or news list. This is > usenet 101 folks. You send a message saying you have it and the ftp > site where to get it or email directly on request. If you limit > yourself to about 50K you should be alright. > > This problem shut down our server most of the day while I went through > by hand weeding out the problem messages, not a simple task when you > have to sort through hundreds of cryptic message id's. Then when you > think you get it done you find it has stuck on another one > rebroadcasting to the world. > > Number 2 -- If you want to complain kindly *REMOVE* the offending large > file *before* you reply. If not you become another offender yourself > and your *complaint* gets redistributed behind the problem message. > USENET 101. > > Any Questions? > > Stevee Stevee; Please unsubscribe me from the list for a while . It has been jamming my mail system up and causing me problems > enjoyed it while it lasted and will get back on some day . Thanks and goodbye for now . Ernie Hagness. ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry Guyer <cigognes(at)oz.sunflower.org>
Subject: Re: OK People
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Thanks, I hope people read your message. I now have abou 10 copies of a worthless file that I don't need. Jerry G ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Dare I look?
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Has the mail storm ended? > > I've terminated the users sending CAD RIB drawings. They have flooded > mine and nearly 100 others Mailboxes to capacity. > > Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: Dare I look?
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > I've terminated the users sending CAD RIB drawings. They have flooded > mine and nearly 100 others Mailboxes to capacity. Please have someone good-looking kiss you for me. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Piet found!
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Well, I go to my first official EAA meeting tonight at 7. I called the guy who runs the Portland chapter to get directions, and he told me that there are two other people in the chapter building Piets as well! One of the planes is right on the airport the meetings are being held at! Looks like I found where I'll be spending MY Saturdays for a while. :) Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: adamson@add-inc.com (Adamson, Arden)
Subject: Re: Dare I look?
Date: Dec 18, 1997
michael list wrote: > > Thank you, thank you, thank you! > > Steve Eldredge wrote: > > > > Has the mail storm ended? > > > > I've terminated the users sending CAD RIB drawings. They have flooded > > mine and nearly 100 others Mailboxes to capacity. > > > > Stevee Steve, I add my thanks to you also. I had to call my server company and have the gal there take the "ribs" off because it had tied mine up also. Arden Adamson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Re: Piet found!
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Richard, Did you go to a meeting in Portland OR? I am down there often from Seattle. When do they hold their meetings? Brent Reed Kent WA -----Original Message----- From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com> Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet found! Well, I go to my first official EAA meeting tonight at 7. I called the guy who runs the Portland chapter to get directions, and he told me that there are two other people in the chapter building Piets as well! One of the planes is right on the airport the meetings are being held at! Looks like I found where I'll be spending MY Saturdays for a while. :) Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Piet found!
Date: Dec 19, 1997
I probably should have specified in my email, but the meeting was in Portland, Maine, not Oregon. Sorry ! > Did you go to a meeting in Portland OR? I am down there often from Seattle. > When do they hold their meetings? > > Brent Reed > Kent WA > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 11:11 AM > Subject: Piet found! > > > Well, I go to my first official EAA meeting tonight at 7. I called > the guy who runs the Portland chapter to get directions, and he told > me that there are two other people in the chapter building Piets as > well! One of the planes is right on the airport the meetings are > being held at! Looks like I found where I'll be spending MY Saturdays > for a while. :) > > Richard > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > > > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Dare I look?
Date: Dec 19, 1997
I sure hope that does it, my server monitor has given me a "nasty gramm" about the overflow in my mailbox... :( Gary Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote: > Steve Eldredge wrote: > > > > Has the mail storm ended? > > I sure hope so - Thanks for all your work > > Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: FELIZ NAVIDAD!!!
Date: Dec 19, 1997
MI FAMILIA Y YO LES DESEAMOS UNA MUY FELIZ NAVIDAD EN COMPA=D1IA DE TODOS= SUS SERES QUERIDOS. SINCERAMENTE SU AMIGO GARY GOWER ggower(at)informador.com.mx PS To my english speaking friends: WE WISH YOU A MERRY CHRISTMAS IN COMPANY OF YOUR LOVED ONES SINCERELY GARY GOWER AND FAMILY DECEMBER 1997 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com>
Subject: test
Date: Dec 20, 1997
test ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> (Ted Brousseau)
Subject: Re: OK People
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Stevee, Don't let Ernie get off so easy. I think you have solved the problem and Ernie's too valuable to allow him to unsubscribe. In the holiday spirit you should do HIM (smile) a favor and ignore his request. Ted >Stevee; Please unsubscribe me from the list for a while . It has been >jamming my mail system up and causing me problems > enjoyed it while it >lasted and will get back on some day . Thanks and goodbye for now . >Ernie Hagness. ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan A. Laudani"
Subject: Re: Piet Builders
Date: Dec 21, 1997
>Hi Guys: > > I am building a long-fuselage Piet at hanger D17A at >Brackett-LaVerne Airport in Southern California. Is anyone else >building a Piet out my way?? If anyone knows, please >contact me at wbnb(at)earthlink.net or (818) 215-2542. Thanks!!! > I have begun the planning stages of a long-fuselage Piet here in Ramona, CA. I am accumulating $$ and studying the plans. I have built a jig for the continental motor mount. Have 75hp to clean, assemble. May start on structure next summer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: Re: Picture
Date: Dec 22, 1997
I thought we eliminated this nonsense with the RIBS fiasco. If you have pictures or other big files DON'T MAIL THEM TO THE GROUP!!!!!!!!!! This is not a difficult concept! >Have a Merry Christmas each and everyone of you. >Attachment Converted: C:\NETSCAPE\EUDORA\MikeClau.jpg > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: OK People
Date: Dec 22, 1997
Ted Brousseau (Ted Brousseau) wrote: > Stevee, > > Don't let Ernie get off so easy. I think you have solved the problem > and > Ernie's too valuable to allow him to unsubscribe. In the holiday > spirit you > should do HIM (smile) a favor and ignore his request. > > Ted > I agree it is a great loss, I've emailed him privately about it. I hope we get him back.Stevee > > >Stevee; Please unsubscribe me from the list for a while . It has been > > >jamming my mail system up and causing me problems > enjoyed it while > it > >lasted and will get back on some day . Thanks and goodbye for now . > >Ernie Hagness. ehagness(at)mail.interconnect.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Apology was(Re: RIBS)
Date: Dec 22, 1997
I recieved this from Randy Green and have returned his name to the list membership. I believe in kindness and humility. Stevee. PS> Welcome back Randy. randy.green wrote: > Steve, > I am asking that you and the entire Pietenpol Discussion Group please > accept my deepest apology for accidently forwarding that stupid CAD > file. > I too, like every one else, was disturbed at getting that file and > being > relatively new to the world of internet mail did not realize that when > I > responded to the guy that originally sent the file that I was also > sending > it to everyone else in the group. > > I am asking that you reconsider suspending my subscription to the > group. I > have enjoyed this group very much and am very excited about Pietenpol > airplanes. I am very sorry for the the inadvertent hassle I caused and > am > the victim of my own accident in that it took over 1-1/2 hours to even > get > your message because of all the other copies that came in. Perhaps > someone > could explain to me why sometimes the same message gets repeated > several > times. > > I hope that you and the group will be understanding in this matter and > give > me a second chance. > > Randy Green > > ---------- > > From: Steve Eldredge > > To: randy.green > > Subject: Re: RIBS > > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:11 AM > > > > Randy, > > > > Your subscription to the piet list has been terminated. > Reforwarding > > RI:Bs CAD stuff has floodded the net and filled everyones mailbox on > the > > whole list. People are really mad. > > > > Stevee > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Alternative and Ultimatum was Re: Picture
Date: Dec 22, 1997
Jim Skinner wrote: > I thought we eliminated this nonsense with the RIBS fiasco. If you > have > pictures or other big files DON'T MAIL THEM TO THE GROUP!!!!!!!!!! > This is not a difficult concept! > > >Have a Merry Christmas each and everyone of you. > >Attachment Converted: C:\NETSCAPE\EUDORA\MikeClau.jpg > > Jim, Thanks for taking up the banner. I get tired of being the bad guy. Everyone else: Let me suggest an additional solution since pictures can be worth a thousand words sometimes. I have a web page that I would be glad to post pictures to if you want them posted then everyone can look at them at will without cluttering up the list. Richard DeCosta may also be willing to do this as well, Richard? Those who send further email to the list with attachments and pics will be instantly terminated. (I promise it won't hurt a bit.) Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Alternative and Ultimatum was Re: Picture
Date: Dec 22, 1997
Sure! I can keep images/zip files/whatever on my server here, and possibly also on my friends FTP server. If you want an image available to the whole group, email it to AirCampr(at)aol.com (thats me), and I'll email you back the URL, then you can post the URL to the group. Richard > I have a web page that I would be glad to post pictures to if you want > them posted then everyone can look at them at will without cluttering up > the list. Richard DeCosta may also be willing to do this as well, > Richard? Those who send further email to the list with attachments and > pics will be instantly terminated. (I promise it won't hurt a bit.) > > I thought we eliminated this nonsense with the RIBS fiasco. If > > you have pictures or other big files DON'T MAIL THEM TO THE > > GROUP!!!!!!!!!! This is not a difficult concept! > > > > >Have a Merry Christmas each and everyone of you. > > >Attachment Converted: C:\NETSCAPE\EUDORA\MikeClau.jpg > > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Welcome Back Ken
Date: Dec 22, 1997
Ken Hannan is back umugst us after an apology for posting the RIBS jpeg. I believe that everyone has been properly educated. Glad were all back as a happy family. NOW back to our regular programing.... Just in time for Christmas! SteveE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: RE: Welcome Back
Date: Dec 22, 1997
Welcome back everyone. One question to wrap this mess up. What is the maximum message size that the list wants? Are we just going to say no attachments and no really long stories? I would think that 100 Kbytes would be reasonable? Any comments? [caveat, make sure you know what you are doing!] Has anybody given any thought to my suggestion of putting Piet designs on the web? I could host 10 meg of files from my personal web page or my employer may agree to host it at the durapharm site. They just asked that I estimate traffic and size requirements. Anybody talked it over with Don or Orrin yet? Anybody know them on a social level? Carl J. Hixon Project Engineer_______________________ Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121 Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544 Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Welcome Back
Date: Dec 22, 1997
Hixon, Carl wrote: > Welcome back everyone. One question to wrap this mess up. What is > the > maximum message size that the list wants? Are we just going to say no > > attachments and no really long stories? I would think that 100 Kbytes > > would be reasonable? Any comments? [caveat, make sure you know what > you are doing!] > I don't think that there is any problem with the length of the message if it is text. How many of you know how to check to see how big the message is going to be before you send it? At this point lets stay away from file attachments and imbedded graphics. It is easy enough to send them privatly or post them on a web site. > Has anybody given any thought to my suggestion of putting Piet designs > > on the web? I could host 10 meg of files from my personal web page or > > my employer may agree to host it at the durapharm site. They just > asked > that I estimate traffic and size requirements. Anybody talked it over > > with Don or Orrin yet? Anybody know them on a social level? > > Carl J. Hixon > Project Engineer_______________________ > Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121 > Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544 > Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com Thought about it, don't know Orrion or Don personally although I have spoken with Don on the phone. I think that it would be a plus, but the homework would need to be done. I doubt 10 meg would do it however. Depends on what you put up I guess. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: seibert(at)swbell.net
Subject: Hello from Texas
Date: Aug 27, 2056
Hello, I am new to the list. My name is Bob Seibert. I just bought a Piet project from John Goble in Austin, Tx. It is an assembled fuselage (not on the gear yet), empenage and wing ribs. I am located near Taylor, Tx. - about 20 miles NE of Austin. Hopefully our grass strip will show up on next publication of the San Antonio sectional. It is "Macho Grande" identifier 41XS. Anybody who flys fun airplanes is welcome to drop in. 30deg 32.31'N - 97deg 25.17'W 2500' grass (would you believe weeds and dirt). Flybys are allowed only if they are less than 50'AGL. (smile) Its actually pretty smooth. I fly my RV-6 out of it using 5.00 x 5 tires. Anyway, I'm looking forward to this Pietenpol project. Now I just gotta clear a lot of junk out of the shop, get the fuselage home and buy the wife another couple of christmas presents.... FIRST QUESTION- I will start on the gear first. I am getting a couple of motorcycle rims with the project and I do want to go the spoke rim route. I have the equipment to build up hubs and axles. Where is a good source for spokes? Bob Seibert ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry Guyer <cigognes(at)oz.sunflower.org>
Subject: Re: Alternative and Ultimatum was Re: Picture
Date: Dec 23, 1997
I like the idea of having acad files, graphics, etc, available for downloading on a as wanted basis. It would be much better than having them tossed at you at random and I really would like to have some of the acad stuff. I intend to put at least some of my bi-plane piet (ok i know some of you are cringing) on acad to get the right angles, check critical measurements etc. I did this with a Nieuport and it worked great. I would like to discuss this with anyone interested...... Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brad Schultz
Subject: Continental engine mount
Date: Dec 24, 1997
Anybody out their producing the Continental engine mount to Pietenpol's supliment plans? I'am having a heck of a time trying to get my local welder to figure it out. Brad Schultz NX899BS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: xmas
Date: Dec 24, 1997
To all subscribers and their families,a very merry christmas and productive newyear Canada . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Continental engine mount
Date: Dec 26, 1997
Brad, George Medue in Ohio welded my engine mount for me and did a nice job. I you want me to get a phone number let me know. He must have a jig already made up. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brad Schultz
Subject: Re: Continental engine mount
Date: Dec 27, 1997
Thanks I would be interested in talking to him. I think I've got things going here to get it built but that's subject to change clawler wrote: > Brad, > > George Medue in Ohio welded my engine mount for me and did a nice job. I > you want me to get a phone number let me know. He must have a jig > already made up. > > Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Continental engine mount
Date: Dec 27, 1997
Brad, George Medue's phone is 513-849-0278. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: xmas
Date: Dec 28, 1997
Doug, Thanks for the Christmas Greetings! I envy you a lot being in sunny, central Alberta!. As a matter of fact, i just got back yesterday frpom visiting my two sons and grand daughter in Whitecourt. Great weather, great folks! All the best to you in 1998. -=Ian=- > From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: xmas > Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 23:11 PM > > To all subscribers and their families,a very merry christmas and productive > newyear > From my family and myself. Doug Hunt...in snowless central Alberta > Canada . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Landing gear cost
Date: Dec 28, 1997
Getting down to the point of having to make a decision on what feet to install on the bird. So far, it will be metal, with brakes. However, when I look at the traditional cost of applying 6" wheels and cleveland brakes, I come up with a cost of about $650.00. Has anyone got a source of alternate materials that is not so pricey? (And that will hold up)? The plans call for a one inch stub axle, but most of the prchased wheels are 3/4" or 5/8 ". I am starting to get confused again, so I thought I would see what the group is using as alternates. Any comments? Thanks, and Happy New Year! -=Ian=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brad Schultz
Subject: Re: Continental engine mount
Date: Dec 28, 1997
Tried that # but get a not in service message. What town is he in? Maybe the area code has changed. Thanks clawler wrote: > Brad, > > George Medue's phone is 513-849-0278. > > Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Continental engine mount
Date: Dec 28, 1997
Brad, The address I have is 68 Oaklawn Ave. Medaway Ohio 45341. I just did a search on one of the internet phone books and don't get a listing. Maybe I have the last name spelled wrong. Oh well we tried. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Ulmer <eric_ulmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Evil VW Engine question
Date: Dec 30, 1997
Let me preface this question with the following 1. Yes, I have read the Pietenpol FAQ and the VW engine statement. Question: Does anyone know of an operating gear reduction drive for a Type I VW engine? I'm planning on using a highly stroked and slightly larger bore engine, with FULL electrical system on the Piet. I was thinking of a reduction of around 2:1 == Eric Ulmer, ServiceNet 612-317-7768, 7857 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Glenn Robb <robb(at)bbt.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol List
Date: Dec 30, 1997
Pietenpol List Members: Three new Piets are being built in Raleigh, North Carolina! Myself and two other electrical engineers at BroadBand Technologies are pooling our skills to build three Improved Aircampers. We intend Corvair power and Cub-type landing gear. Right now we're studying the plans, scheming, and getting ready to purchase some wood. Let us introduce ourselves ... Glenn Robb 919-405-4773; I'm an avid woodworker who's been making fur- niture for about 7 years in a small basement shop. My shop is just big enough to build a wing-half or fuselage. I've got plenty of tools, and look forward to the ultimate woodworking project. With 65 hours, I've only been a private pilot for a month, but I plan to get some tail-dragger time in the next year. Our group is planning to stop by Broadhead and Oshkosh this summer. Mark Cassada 919-405-4767; In my youth I had dreams of rebuilding a car, building a house and building my own airplane. So far I've restored a 68 Camaro and contracted/built my own house. The Pietenpol will hopefully fulfill my next goal. I'm a 200hr pilot of which 70 hours are in a 1967 7ECA Citabria I just recently purchased. I'm hoping to learn a lot during the build of the Pietenpol. Hope to see you this summer. Bill Beerman 919-834-4660; I'm a private pilot with ~250 hrs. of cherished flying time. In my teens and twenties I lusted after MG sports cars of any type, and while my MGB awaits restoration, my passion has since grown for airplanes amd flying. I'm hoping to be able to convert my skills in automotive work and home rebuilding to those of an airplane builder. Mark and Glenn have promised to help me build a garage this summer to house some of our Pietenpol-building operations. I plan to hold them to it, no matter how buried they get in spruce and airplane dope! Regards, Glenn Robb (robb(at)bbt.com) Mark Cassada (mcc(at)bbt.com) Bill Beerman (wcb(at)bbt.com) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)west.gecems.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol List
Date: Dec 30, 1997
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Glenn Robb wrote: > > > Pietenpol List Members: > > Three new Piets are being built in Raleigh, North Carolina! > > Myself and two other electrical engineers at BroadBand Technologies > are pooling our skills to build three Improved Aircampers. We intend > Corvair power and Cub-type landing gear. Right now we're studying the > plans, scheming, and getting ready to purchase some wood. Let us > introduce ourselves ... First, welcome to the list. Second, consider yourselves very fortunate. It's hard enough finding other interested builders on the internet. Finding 2 other guys interested in building the same type of plane and work together is amazing. I know that you'll get a great deal of enjoyment from the project. Actually, I'm building a highly modified piet with a steel tube fuselage and enclosed cabin. It was designed by Ron Mason and he calls it a Christavia but it's really a Piet...Honest SteveE...It's a Piet (OK, maybe it's not but I really love the Piet list). BTW, anybody want me to post a complete set of Christavia drawings to the list? Just Kidding! But seriously, the Piet list is made up of a great bunch of guys and it's certainly been inspirational to see members complete and fly thier ships. Hope to join them this summer. Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Landing gear cost
Date: Jan 02, 1998
Ian Holland wrote: > Getting down to the point of having to make a decision on what feet to > > install on the bird. So far, it will be metal, with brakes. However, > when I > look at the traditional cost of applying 6" wheels and cleveland > brakes, I > come up with a cost of about $650.00. Has anyone got a source of > alternate > materials that is not so pricey? (And that will hold up)? The plans > call > for a one inch stub axle, but most of the prchased wheels are 3/4" or > 5/8 > ". I am starting to get confused again, so I thought I would see what > the > group is using as alternates. > Any comments? > Thanks, and Happy New Year! > -=Ian=- I used Matco 6" wheels and hydrolic brakes. They manufacture for homebuilts and I really like the quality. They are much like clevelands, but cheaper. Not sure what prices are now. Check them out at WWW.MATCOMFG.COM. I used the W62 model. with the 3/4" axles. You have to choose before welding the gear to match the axles. Duane Woolsey used the 8" azuza (?) wheel on his plane with the manual brakes and a 5/8" axle. Functional, but not really suitable for non hard surface runways. check my web site for a pic of his wheels. (and mine) The long and short is.... Unless you build up your own wheels a la motocycle derivitive, this will be one of the larger one-time outlays of cash. I guess you could also scrounge for used cessna/piper/etc sets as well. I saw main gear for a cessna find a home on a Christavia MK 4 for about $400. (catch that Ken?) Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Landing gear cost
Date: Jan 02, 1998
Thanks a lot Steve! I browsed the Matco web site and it helped a lot! Any idea (guestimate) what your package cost? I am also assuming that you have two master cylinders (MC6) for differential braking. Thanks loads! I guess everyone is recovering from the holidays as the chat line has been pretty quiet. I needed a new belly pan for my Yellow Lab as she managed to impale herself on a stump while retrieving a stick. Good for 20 stitches and $368.00. She needed the belly repairs as a priority! After all the First Aid courses taken at work over the years, I finally got to apply the knowledge. Just like building a Piet, I guess, follow the instructions and it all works out! My next project will be a sidecar for my motorcycle so that my dog can get to the airport with me. Best regards, -=Ian=- > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Landing gear cost > Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 11:06 AM > > Ian Holland wrote: > > > Getting down to the point of having to make a decision on what feet to > > > > install on the bird. So far, it will be metal, with brakes. However, > > when I > > look at the traditional cost of applying 6" wheels and cleveland > > brakes, I > > come up with a cost of about $650.00. Has anyone got a source of > > alternate > > materials that is not so pricey? (And that will hold up)? The plans > > call > > for a one inch stub axle, but most of the prchased wheels are 3/4" or > > 5/8 > > ". I am starting to get confused again, so I thought I would see what > > the > > group is using as alternates. > > Any comments? > > Thanks, and Happy New Year! > > -=Ian=- > > I used Matco 6" wheels and hydrolic brakes. They manufacture for > homebuilts and I really like the quality. They are much like > clevelands, but cheaper. Not sure what prices are now. Check them out > at WWW.MATCOMFG.COM. I used the W62 model. with the 3/4" axles. You > have to choose before welding the gear to match the axles. Duane > Woolsey used the 8" azuza (?) wheel on his plane with the manual brakes > and a 5/8" axle. Functional, but not really suitable for non hard > surface runways. check my web site for a pic of his wheels. (and mine) > > The long and short is.... Unless you build up your own wheels a la > motocycle derivitive, this will be one of the larger one-time outlays of > cash. I guess you could also scrounge for used cessna/piper/etc sets as > well. I saw main gear for a cessna find a home on a Christavia MK 4 for > about $400. (catch that Ken?) > > Stevee > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Materials List
Date: Jan 02, 1998
I've got the steel list that Don Pietenpol provides with his plans, but does anyone have a complete materials list? Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: seibert(at)swbell.net
Subject: Re: Landing gear cost
Date: Aug 27, 2056
Does anybody want to try some 5.00 x 5 Clevelands? I have a complete set of used wheels, tires, brakes, axles and master cylinders off of a (ugh) Long-Eze. This is a complete system minus only the brake lines and pedals. They are in good used condition. (If you want a little larger tire, you can buy 6.00 x 5 tires to fit these wheels.) The axles are a standard four bolt flange. Everything was perfectly functional when the guy parted the airplane out. I am putting spoke wheels on my new piet project and will not need these. I would take the first $250 I could get. (or interesting Pietenpol parts trades) I'm at seibert.swbell.net so if anybody wants these, let me know. I'm located in the Austin, TX area if anybody wants to drop in. By the way, the 5.00 x 5's actually work just fine on grass strips so if ya want a piet (or anything else) with small tires, these ought to work as-is. Bob Seibert (512) 365-8918 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Ulmer <eric_ulmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Engine Options for Piet
Date: Jan 03, 1998
I've put together a Homebuilt Aircraft engine site on my ISP home account, http://www.isd.net/eulmer/engines.html Does anyone have any specific Pietenpol engine links that I could add? Also, I got John Gregga's GN-1 Plans in the mail today and should be getting Don's full set shortly. I'm building up a jig table in my basement now. If anyone has any experiences building the Piet with the metal option, I'd like to hear if you'd do it again in metal the second time. == Eric Ulmer, ServiceNet 612-317-7768, 7857 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net>
Subject: 3-Piece Wing
Date: Jan 04, 1998
I am curious to know if anyone took a look at the Garry Price designs, particularly the three piece wing and gapless aileron. the pros and cons before I purchase the plans. Thanks Bill Talbert ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brad Schultz
Subject: Strut and Cabanes
Date: Jan 04, 1998
What's the recomended size tubing for the cabanes and struts? Bernie's plans don't reflect todays sizes. Brad Schultz brsch(at)afcon.net NX899BS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Subject: Re: 3-Piece Wing
Date: Jan 04, 1998
Bill Talbert wrote: > > I am curious to know if anyone took a look at the Garry Price designs, > particularly the three piece wing and gapless aileron. > > >From the pictures I've seen, He does nice work but would like to here > the pros and cons before I purchase the plans. > > Thanks > > Bill Talbert Hi Bill, I don't have Garry's wing plans, but I do have his plans for the aileron piano hinge, the steerable tailwheel and the fiberglass fuel tank. I can tell you that his plans are beautifully done with more than enough detail & specs to answer any question you may have during construction. Even birdhouse builders like me can figure them out easily without any "creative" ideas of my own. If you've seen his work, you can assume that he "engineered-out" any cons that may have come up. Piets Forever, Lee Schiek Stevensville, MI P.S. For Skip Gadd & Dick Hartwig - nylon plate going out in 1/5 mail. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Piet Hello?
Date: Jan 04, 1998
Haven't gotten any messages in a while. Is everything ok? bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Piets HELLO?
Date: Jan 04, 1998
Is anyone out there? I just got back from a 10 day ski trip and don't have any Piet messages. What gives? Barry bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: djscott(at)heartland.bradley.edu (David Scott)
Subject: Wing Rib - Auto Cad - Careful what you get
Date: Jan 04, 1998
THIS IS JUST A QUICK NOTE -> Last month there was an AutoCad drawing of the wing rib put out on this usenet and I have found it to be not per the pietenpol prints which are given by Don Pietenpol. Some of the discrepancies are: 1. Spacing between front and rear spar was not 27-3/4 inches. I found it to be about 28-1/4. 2. The last brace at the trailing edge was not from the upper side of the rear spar to the lower capstrip at the trailing edge. This is weaker support for the Aerodynamic forces if it is backwards from the print. I did not check any further. I guess the term Caveat de-Emptor has a familiar tune. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Wing Rib - Auto Cad - Careful what you get
Date: Jan 04, 1998
I noticed this, too. Does anyone have a more accurate one? Also, what is the status of whether or not we can make CAD drawings of the whole plans? > THIS IS JUST A QUICK NOTE -> > > Last month there was an AutoCad drawing of the wing rib put out > on this usenet and I have found it to be not per the pietenpol > prints which are given by Don Pietenpol. Some of the discrepancies > are: > > 1. Spacing between front and rear spar was not 27-3/4 inches. > I found it to be about 28-1/4. > 2. The last brace at the trailing edge was not from the upper > side of the rear spar to the lower capstrip at the trailing > edge. This is weaker support for the Aerodynamic forces if > it is backwards from the print. > > I did not check any further. > > I guess the term Caveat de-Emptor has a familiar tune. > > > > -- > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net>
Subject: Test
Date: Jan 04, 1998
Is this working? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: Test
Date: Jan 04, 1998
> From: Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Test > Date: Sunday, January 04, 1998 11:38 PM > > Is this working? Yes it is working(i guess) Doug ve6zh(at)cnnet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 04, 1998
OK, here is the message where I let everyone know just how much of a beginner I am in all this! :) I am ready (financially speaking) to get outfitted to build my Piet and order the materials to build the ribs. HOWEVER, I would like advice in the tools I purchase. I have done some woodworking, but not alot. So, not only will I be learning to build an airplane, I will be learning fine woodworking skills. Soooo... Can anyone who has the time please email me (or the list, if you feel they could benefit) any advice about what tools are best for building a Piet. All I have right now is a couple screwdrivers and a shiney new hammer I got at Home Depot this past Saturday. The more specific the reply, the better. :) Thanks to any and all who reply! Richard http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Piets HELLO?
Date: Jan 04, 1998
Barry, SSSHHH! We're all calculating W&B at the same time! Larry ;-) Barry Davis wrote: > Is anyone out there? I just got back from a 10 day ski trip and don't have > any Piet messages. > What gives? > > Barry > bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Propellor Hubs
Date: Jan 04, 1998
I seem to have lost my address to the guy who was making Corvair prop hubs. I'd rather support another homebuilder remotely than work with a local machine shop, to be honest. Does anyone have the name? Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr
Subject: Re: Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Richard, I, too, am just beginning my Piet project. Started by buying a bench grinder/sander, a good sturdy bench vise and a good quality hack-saw. Am beginning with metal fittings, (elevator and rudder horns), and tail surfaces. The sander is good for sizing the wood pieces, as well as the steel ones. Ordered spruce from Wicks, got it shaped at a local cabinet shop and am now gluing up the rudder. It's fun to see the first pieces that are recognizable as aircraft parts. I suggest you get cast aluminum hinges from Vi Kapler, (he's on the BAP homepage). Check Harbor Freight for affordable power tools. (ADonJr(at)AOL.com) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Tools, etc... -Reply
Date: Jan 05, 1998
I would highly recommend a good quality compound miter saw with a GOOD fine tooth carbide blade. I purchased a 10" Delta for $ 175.00 and a 40 tooth blade for around $50.00. I cut all the rib uprights in a single afternoon and they fit very nicely. Greg Cardinal >>> Richard DeCosta 01/04/98 04:08pm >>> OK, here is the message where I let everyone know just how much of a beginner I am in all this! :) I am ready (financially speaking) to get outfitted to build my Piet and order the materials to build the ribs. HOWEVER, I would like advice in the tools I purchase. I have done some woodworking, but not alot. So, not only will I be learning to build an airplane, I will be learning fine woodworking skills. Soooo... Can anyone who has the time please email me (or the list, if you feel they could benefit) any advice about what tools are best for building a Piet. All I have right now is a couple screwdrivers and a shiney new hammer I got at Home Depot this past Saturday. The more specific the reply, the better. :) Thanks to any and all who reply! Richard http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Tools, etc... -Reply
Date: Jan 05, 1998
You MUST get a drill press. It is the one bench power tool you won't be able to get by without. All those holes must be drilled with as much precision as possible. A benchtop one is all you need. After that a bench grinder and table saw. john ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Tools, etc... -Reply
Date: Jan 05, 1998
I was under the impression that most of it could be built with hnad tools (non-power tools). Is this not the case? Richard > You MUST get a drill press. It is the one bench power tool you won't be > able to get by without. All those holes must be drilled > with as much precision as possible. A benchtop one is all you need. > > After that a bench grinder and table saw. > > john > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Tools, etc... -Reply
Date: Jan 05, 1998
> Content-Length: 516 > > I was under the impression that most of it could be built with hnad > tools (non-power tools). Is this not the case? > > Richard > > > You MUST get a drill press. It is the one bench power tool you won't be > > able to get by without. All those holes must be drilled > > with as much precision as possible. A benchtop one is all you need. > > > > After that a bench grinder and table saw. > > > > john > > > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Cabinet maker precision is necessary on much of the structure. Holes must be straight and line up to mating fittings with very close tolerances to properly transfer loads from metal to wood... ESPECIALLY spar and lift strut fittings. Perfectly perpendicular holes are one of the most important aspects of aircraft construction from a structural standpoint. You can do just about everything with hand tools except drill perfectly perpendicular holes like spar fitting holes and longeron holes. Therefore a drill press is essential. Drill blocks can be used to make straight holes when a drill press won't work, but a drill press should be used wherever possible. A bench top model is handy because you can move it around on a jig table for doing longeron holes on your fuselage etc. Check for quality by running the chuck all the way down and jiggling it sideways to feel for side play. The cheap ones can move from side to side quite a lot, which can mean irregular holes. Buy the one with the least side play. All the other power tools are basically nice-to-have time savers. Personally, I would not want to fly an airplane where the holes for the primary structure were drilled by eyeball with a hand power drill. john Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wkoucky <Wkoucky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Propellor Hubs
Date: Jan 05, 1998
<< I seem to have lost my address to the guy who was making Corvair prop hubs. I'd rather support another homebuilder remotely than work with a local machine shop, to be honest. Does anyone have the name? Larry >> William Wynne, formerly of PAS has a nice hub for $399. I am calling him this morning to place an order for a cam. Phone 904-426-7795. William Koucky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Subject: Tall wheel spokes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Two questions everybody. . . . . 1. I'm making up tall wheel hubs per Henderson/Pavliga design, with brake addition. Source for ROLLED thread spokes? 2. Brakes to be mechanical & used only for taxi manuvering & parking. Question: Do I REALLY need to consider a different spoke layout to absorb loads, or can I keep straight lace arrangement for looks? Has anybody actually experienced axial load failure caused by braking loads against straight lacing? All opinions, thoughts, second guesses appreciated. Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Strut and Cabanes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Brad Schultz wrote: > What's the recomended size tubing for the cabanes and struts? > Bernie's > plans don't reflect todays sizes. > > Brad Schultz > brsch(at)afcon.net > NX899BS Get the equivalent round tubing conversion table in the aircraft spruce catalog. I used it to find the size then went up one size just for safety's sake. I think I ended up with something like 1-1/4" x .049. don't clearly remember however. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Subject: Tall wheel spokes
Two questions everybody. . . . . 1. I'm making up tall wheel hubs per Henderson/Pavliga design, with brake addition. Source for ROLLED thread spokes? 2. Brakes to be mechanical & used only for taxi manuvering & parking. Question: Do I REALLY need to consider a different spoke layout to absorb loads, or can I keep straight lace arrangement for looks? Has anybody actually experienced axial load failure caused by braking loads against straight lacing? All opinions, thoughts, second guesses appreciated. Lee >> Hi Lee: John McNarry here. I would recommend that if you build tall wheels that you do widen the hubs. The ability of motorcycle wheels to absorb loads perpendicular to the axle is very good, but I've managed to bend sidecar wheels.( Oh all right. I was driving it beyond its design.) I would expect that some day if you fly long enough that a strong side load will be transferred to the gear through the wheels. Therefore wide hubs are nessacary! I got around the problem of longer spokes by fabricating a larger outer hub flange. ( Drilled full of spoke and lightening holes it looks ok.) Decide on how wide you want to go and then swing an arc the length of your present spokes. Were the spoke length line intersects the flange line will determine your new hub spoke circle diameter. I made mine slightly cup shaped. \------/ ? An altenative to fabricating Hubs would be to spend some time looking at used motocycle junkyards. Rear dirt bike hubs are usually quite wide and a 21" front rim may lace on. J Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 05, 1998
ADonJr wrote: > Richard, > I, too, am just beginning my Piet project. Started by buying a bench > grinder/sander, a good sturdy bench vise and a good quality > hack-saw. Am > beginning with metal fittings, (elevator and rudder horns), and tail > surfaces. > The sander is good for sizing the wood pieces, as well as the steel > ones. I hope you are not sanding surfaces that are to be glued. Sanding clogs the pores of the wood and weakens the bond. I did nearly zero sanding on my project. Most material removal and cutting should be done with carbide tools and saws and finished with a sharp hand plane. All finish cuts for my wood parts were done with a 200 tooth 7 1/4" hollow ground crome blade. Very smooth clean cuts. Power sanders are an invaluable tool however for metal fittings. Much better than a grinder. Stevee > Ordered spruce from Wicks, got it shaped at a local cabinet shop and > am now > gluing up the rudder. It's fun to see the first pieces that are > recognizable > as aircraft parts. I suggest you get cast aluminum hinges from Vi > Kapler, > (he's on the BAP homepage). Check Harbor Freight for affordable power > tools. > Piets! > Cooley > (ADonJr(at)AOL.com) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
McNarry, John wrote: > > From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> > Subject: Tall wheel spokes > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > Organization: Concrete Specialties Corp. > > Two questions everybody. . . . . > > 1. I'm making up tall wheel hubs per Henderson/Pavliga design, with > brake addition. Source for ROLLED thread spokes? > 2. Brakes to be mechanical & used only for taxi manuvering & parking. > Question: Do I REALLY need to consider a different spoke layout to > absorb loads, or can I keep straight lace arrangement for looks? > Has anybody actually experienced axial load failure caused by braking > loads against straight lacing? > All opinions, thoughts, second guesses appreciated. > Lee > >> Hi Lee: John McNarry here. I would recommend that if you build tall > wheels that you do widen the hubs. The ability of motorcycle wheels > to absorb loads perpendicular to the axle is very good, but I've > managed to bend sidecar wheels.( Oh all right. I was driving it > beyond its design.) I would expect that some day if you fly long > enough that a strong side load will be transferred to the gear > through the wheels. Therefore wide hubs are nessacary! > I got around the problem of longer spokes by fabricating a larger > outer hub flange. ( Drilled full of spoke and lightening holes it > looks ok.) Decide on how wide you want to go and then swing an arc > the length of your present spokes. Were the spoke length line > intersects the flange line will determine your new hub spoke circle > diameter. I made mine slightly cup shaped. \------/ ? > An altenative to fabricating Hubs would be to spend some time > looking at used motocycle junkyards. Rear dirt bike hubs are usually > quite wide and a 21" front rim may lace on. > > J Mc Hi John, Thanks for input. My hubs will be 6" wide, so I guess I'm not too worried about side loading. My main concern is loads on straight spoke lacing with brakes (originially I said "axial" - maybe I meant to say "torsional" loads. In other words, with straight spoke lacing, there is less resistence & strength to braking loads at the hub; that's why Model A cars etc cross-laced the spokes-to absorb the braking action. But I like the looks of of the Henderson-type straight lace, but then again, he didn't have brakes. What da ya think, and where are ya at in your Piet project? Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes -Reply
Date: Jan 05, 1998
A source for rolled threads is: Buchanan's Frame Shop 805 West 8th Street Azusa, CA 91702 (626) 969-4655 Rambling comments on rims found at a junkyard: Rims drilled for 36 spokes are MUCH more common than 40 spokes. Look at the bigger Hondas and Kawasakis for 40 hole rims. Pre-drilled rims will have spoke holes drilled at angles that don't allow them to be used with straight spokes, re-drilling will be necessary. Good luck finding a matching pair of rims. It took two of us over 3 hours searching a motorcycle boneyard before a matching pair were found. The weight difference between alloy and steel rims is not great. Greg Cardinal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Tall Spokes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Dear Lee: I also used Buchanan Spoke & Rim, Inc. (805 W. Eighth Street, Azusa, Ca. 91702 telephone (626) 969-4655 fax (626) 812-0243 to redo some Honda Trail 90 36 spoke Hubs and rims. I had them true and relace with 9 gauge stainless steel spokes. The spokes cost $1.00 each and the labor was $54.00. per wheel. Not cheap. Each spoke will take in excess of 1,000 pounds of terror and there are at least 8 spokes in EACH wheel at work all the time. The finished product looks beautiful and are hell-for-stout. If I were to do it over, I would change the rim to a 16" or 18" as these size motorcycle tires with good load range are much more readily available and cheaper. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes -Reply
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Greg Cardinal wrote: > > A source for rolled threads is: > > Buchanan's Frame Shop > 805 West 8th Street > Azusa, CA 91702 > > (626) 969-4655 > > Rambling comments on rims found at a junkyard: > > Rims drilled for 36 spokes are MUCH more common than 40 spokes. > Look at the bigger Hondas and Kawasakis for 40 hole rims. > Pre-drilled rims will have spoke holes drilled at angles that don't allow > them to be used with straight spokes, re-drilling will be necessary. > Good luck finding a matching pair of rims. It took two of us over 3 hours > searching a motorcycle boneyard before a matching pair were found. > The weight difference between alloy and steel rims is not great. > > Greg Cardinal Great info! Thanks a bunch! Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Hi Lee I've built my wheels, tail feathers, ribs and fuselage sides. I have been working on my engine a B ford block much modified. I decided on the tall wheels split gear with brakes. I don't like the thought of taxiing, on hard surfaces, near expensive aircraft with out brakes. I intend to cover the spokes with fabric disks and so the cross laced motorcycle wheels won't detract from the appearance. I have been thinking about brake operating mechanisms but haven't developed much past the mental image yet. Piets are Fun! J Mc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > OK, here is the message where I let everyone know just how much of a > beginner I am in all this! :) I am ready (financially speaking) to > get outfitted to build my Piet and order the materials to build the > ribs. HOWEVER, I would like advice in the tools I purchase. I have > done some woodworking, but not alot. So, not only will I be learning > to build an airplane, I will be learning fine woodworking skills. > Soooo... > > Can anyone who has the time please email me (or the list, if you > feel they could benefit) any advice about what tools are best for > building a Piet. All I have right now is a couple screwdrivers and a > shiney new hammer I got at Home Depot this past Saturday. The more > specific the reply, the better. :) > > Thanks to any and all who reply! > > Richard > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet Re: Your tool requirements. Buy anything that has anything to do with woodworking. Just kidding. You will need a table saw with a std. blade, a rip blade and a planer blade. A band saw is not necessary, I converted mine to cut 4130. Small tools such as hand planer you will definitely use. You will need some 'C' clamps and some hand spring type clamps. Chisels, at least two different sizes. Large square, and a small one too. If i left anything out buy it anyway you will probably use it. Oh yes a measuring tape and make sure you measure everything 3 times or you will end up building more than one aircraft. At least I did. Anyway I'm on ICQ Nick:C-GDCB, you have already authorized me to your user list. Regards, Domenico Bellissimo DCSBell(at)netcom.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Propellor Hubs
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Larry L. Neal wrote: > > I seem to have lost my address to the guy who was making Corvair prop > hubs. > I'd rather support another homebuilder remotely than work with a local > machine shop, to be honest. > Does anyone have the name? > > Larry If my memory serves me right I believe the person who has the drawing for the three piece wing also has prop. hubs available. And again if my memory serves me right it's Vi Kapler?? Can anyone confirm??? I'm sure I read this in one of the BPA Newsletters. Regards Domenic Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: RE: Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Another question about tools: Can anybody point me to a good pneumatic-adjustable-speed-floor drill press? I was thinking that since I have this awesome compressor...it might be cheaper? Carl J. Hixon Project Engineer_______________________ Dura Pharmaceuticals, San Diego, CA 92121 Phone: (619) 784-6747 Fax: (619) 453-2544 Web Page: http://www.durapharm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Piet Hello?
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Barry Davis wrote: > Haven't gotten any messages in a while. Is everything ok? > bed(at)mindspring.com Barry, Please try again. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Propellor Hubs
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Larry, I understand that Vi Kapler also has Corvair propeller hubs. Check the BPA homepage for his address. Mike List Larry L. Neal wrote: > > I seem to have lost my address to the guy who was making Corvair prop > hubs. > I'd rather support another homebuilder remotely than work with a local > machine shop, to be honest. > Does anyone have the name? > > Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Evil VW Engine question
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Eric Ulmer wrote: > > Let me preface this question with the following > 1. Yes, I have read the Pietenpol FAQ and the VW engine > statement. > > Question: > Does anyone know of an operating gear reduction drive > for a Type I VW engine? I'm planning on using a > highly stroked and slightly larger bore engine, with > FULL electrical system on the Piet. I was thinking > of a reduction of around 2:1 > Eric, I saw a Wittman Tailwind (small two seater, high-wing cabin type) with a Type 4 VW/Porsche engine with a reduction drive at the Lancaster Air Races. The owner's name is Ivan Andersson and he had the cowling off so you could see the engine. The drive consisted of a long shaft over the top of the engine supported by bearings and driven by belts at the firewall side of the engine. There is a picture of this airplane in the December 1997 issue of Sport Aviation, p. 78. He was using a 3-blade prop as well. The airplane flew OK and sounded quite different in the air, but keep in mind that this is a very clean, small airplane compared to the Piet. I don't think that this particular combination would work on an Air Camper, and even with the reduction unit it is too light to balance the Air Camper. The light weight, not the torque output with a reduction drive, is probably the main reason for keeping the VW's out out of the Air Camper. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brad Schultz
Subject: Re: Propellor Hubs
Date: Jan 05, 1998
They make them at Brodhead. Try e-mailing Lee Stanton at ( ljsc37(at)brodnet.com) he should be able to steer you to the right person. Also think Vi Kapler in Rochester has them, Larry L. Neal wrote: > I seem to have lost my address to the guy who was making Corvair prop > hubs. > I'd rather support another homebuilder remotely than work with a local > machine shop, to be honest. > Does anyone have the name? > > Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Lee, I'm not absolutely positive about the 1st question, and I'd say that rolled threads carry more load than cut, yes. I doubt though, that you'll find any spokes of any sort with rolled threads, they don't carry *that* much load to be effective. Sorta like hammer forged belt buckles. Regarding straight spokes. I submit that this will be a problem. Any braking loads will be greatly amplified, (though I'd betcha it busts in the middle not on the "non rolled" threaded side). Landing loads are diminished as well, versus most crossed patterns. Please don't do this, they will definitely loosen up at the least. This is not Piet experience, but bicycle stuff, where the weight vs strength issue is even more important. To be honest, straight spokes don't look that spiffy anyway.... I have not read the referenced design notes and I still don't have a Piet built, so take it for what it worth. I'll take your question as a heads up and read this stuff, though I am currently planning to use a couple of mid-sized motorcycle front wheels myself. Larry Lee L. Schiek wrote: > Two questions everybody. . . . . > > 1. I'm making up tall wheel hubs per Henderson/Pavliga design, with > brake addition. Source for ROLLED thread spokes? > 2. Brakes to be mechanical & used only for taxi manuvering & parking. > Question: Do I REALLY need to consider a different spoke layout to > absorb loads, or can I keep straight lace arrangement for looks? > Has anybody actually experienced axial load failure caused by braking > loads against straight lacing? > All opinions, thoughts, second guesses appreciated. > Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 05, 1998
Richard, Good question, and though I know that you've already gotten some replies, I'll add my two cents worth. Clamps, clamps, clamps! When you're tired of buying these, as Santa for more...... When Santa's tired of delivering, pistol whip your piggy bank and get more. Long clamps, spring clamps, screw clamps, pipe clamps, visegrip clamps, bench clamps. Anytime you glue wood, you want to apply pressure and make sure that it's directed properly as well as evenly distributed. This makes clamps the one thing that you can *never* have too many of! Larry ;-) Richard DeCosta wrote: > OK, here is the message where I let everyone know just how much of a > beginner I am in all this! :) I am ready (financially speaking) to > get outfitted to build my Piet and order the materials to build the > ribs. HOWEVER, I would like advice in the tools I purchase. I have > done some woodworking, but not alot. So, not only will I be learning > to build an airplane, I will be learning fine woodworking skills. > Soooo... > > Can anyone who has the time please email me (or the list, if you > feel they could benefit) any advice about what tools are best for > building a Piet. All I have right now is a couple screwdrivers and a > shiney new hammer I got at Home Depot this past Saturday. The more > specific the reply, the better. :) > > Thanks to any and all who reply! > > Richard > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Wire Spoked Wheels
Date: Jan 06, 1998
To all you tall spokes folks out there, I salute you! Can any of you tell us how much your wire spoked wheels weigh, with or without tires and brakes? Thanks. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Wright <jwright(at)bcsbel.be.Lucent.com>
Subject: RE: Evil VW Engine question
Date: Jan 06, 1998
I too have been wondering about ... (Here I go...gulp!) VW engines for the Pietenpol. After reading Eric's question, I did a web search and came up with the following site: http://www.arc.net/Able/prod03.htm Prices are a bit steep for someone who has bought $500 VWs before (Over $5000), but what's interesting is their claim that the engine is maximized for 2500 rpm and can utilize a 70 inch prop. This would appear to bring the conventional wisdom into question. I have to believe that with the right non-stock parts, even one of us "Low and Slow" guys could put a VW engine with similar performance. Just think of it as a Corvair running on four cylinders! I'm a Model A fan myself, but as I am currently living in Belgium. The VW would appear to be the only Belgian-approved non-certified engine that is flying here in amateur built aircraft. Jim Wright jgw(at)skynet.be Eric Ulmer wrote: > > Let me preface this question with the following > 1. Yes, I have read the Pietenpol FAQ and the VW engine > statement. > > Question: > Does anyone know of an operating gear reduction drive > for a Type I VW engine? I'm planning on using a > highly stroked and slightly larger bore engine, with > FULL electrical system on the Piet. I was thinking > of a reduction of around 2:1 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Tools, etc... -Reply
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Richard- I found that taking your .060" and .090" 4130 chromolly sheet steel to a place which can shear off various width strips for your fittings is handy. Ask them to shear parallel to the white printing on the steel too. This shows the grain of the steel. (Tony B.'s books explain why) Also a band saw with a slower moving blade works great on fittings. I imagine Bernard P. used a hack saw for his early planes and that would work fine today as well, but you'll find out what works best for you as you go. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Tall wheel spokes
Date: Jan 06, 1998
>Two questions everybody. . . . . > >1. I'm making up tall wheel hubs per Henderson/Pavliga design, with > brake addition. Source for ROLLED thread spokes? Lee- try your local motorcycle shop and ask them if they can order a set for you thru Buchannen's (spelling) in CA. They rolled my spokes after my local shop faxed them a sketch of my homemade hubs and intended rim size, etc. They were not cheap but they are the way to go. I'm told cut threads can be much weaker and should be avoided. >2. Brakes to be mechanical & used only for taxi manuvering & parking. > Question: Do I REALLY need to consider a different spoke layout to > absorb loads, or can I keep straight lace arrangement for looks? loads (and acceleration in the case of a motorcycle). Straight spokes are used if you have no brakes. Maybe we have a lurking mechanical engineer in the audience who might shed some light on this for us. > Has anybody actually experienced axial load failure caused by braking > loads against straight lacing? >All opinions, thoughts, second guesses appreciated. >Lee > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Wire Spoked Wheels -Reply
Date: Jan 06, 1998
I don't have mine together yet but I will let you know when they are finished. Greg Cardinal >>> michael list 01/06/98 05:06am >>> To all you tall spokes folks out there, I salute you! Can any of you tell us how much your wire spoked wheels weigh, with or without tires and brakes? Thanks. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Wire Spoked Wheels -Reply
Date: Jan 06, 1998
> From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> > Subject: Wire Spoked Wheels -Reply > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > I don't have mine together yet but I will let you know when they are > finished. > > Greg Cardinal > > >>> michael list 01/06/98 05:06am >>> > To all you tall spokes folks out there, I salute you! Can any of you > tell us how much your wire spoked wheels weigh, with or without tires > and brakes? Thanks. > Mike List > 21" X 3" alloy rims ,brakes and backing plates. Less tires 18 lbs each J Mc P.S. If you are considering tall gearand brakes, may I suggest the split type as it allows easier tranfer of brake torque to the fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Wire Spoked Wheels
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Dear Mike: My Honda Trail 90 wheel with 9 guage stainless steel spokes and Dunlop F17-100/90 tire & tube, with mechanical brakes & axel, weighs 17.5 pounds and is 24 5/8" tall by 3 3/4" wide. michael list wrote: > To all you tall spokes folks out there, I salute you! Can any of you > tell us how much your wire spoked wheels weigh, with or without tires > and brakes? Thanks. > Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Flying is great. For Christmas my wife (bless her heart) bought me some thermal underwear, the warmest socks on the planet, and sent me off flying. A brother in law gave me a new pair of smith snowboard goggles (he owns a snowboard shop). Needless to say I had few excuses left but to go fly. The pre-Christmas snow storm had nearly melted off and with all the family obiligitory visits out of the way the New Years weekend was a time to fly. I had Thurs and Fri off and the weather turned warm. Checking my new panel mounted thermometer it was a balmy 39 degrees. I finished my preflight by hand propping the engine through a half a dozen times to get the juices flowing (mine) and a little pre-start oiling for the engine. The old Continetal sprang to life on the second pull and I even remebered this time to turn on the fuel! After a quick oil pressure check, I start to pile on the layers of clothing while the engine warms. A couple of my comrades drive by retreating to their heated hangers to piddle with their planes. They have become accustomed to my mid winter flights. Their passengers however-faces glued to the frosty windows can't believe their eyes as they see this abobinable stay puff pilot stuffing himself into an open cockpit puddle jumper. I must have answered the "Isn't it freezing?" question 10 times. It's not really that bad. Warmer in fact than any snowmobile trip I've been on. Admitedly though, my flight at 22 degrees was a short one. Taxi over for fuel. Filled the tank for $18.01 and flew all three days and still have some left. Was a joy not to have to shell out 50 clams an hour anymore. I could really get used to this idea! The flights are full of things to do. After every flight I add something to the fix/adjust it list. -provides a good excuse to go flying again. I think that I finally fixed my tailwheel problem. I cut about 2 inches out of the spring and nicopressed the tailwheel cables at the most comfortable length. I can now get the tail down on landing most of the time. The rest of the time can be blamed on the novice tailwheel pilot. The static source is still giving me fits. Instead of reading 20mph over now it reads 20mph under. I've tried behind the panel under the seat, in the rear cockpit, non at all, and now through the rear cockpit aluminum. For those of you that are still building your wings, you'll save yourself this greif by running a second line up to your pitot tube that can be used as a static port. One solution that I did find is that without the front pit cover on all my static problems go away. Fridays flight was very short. On the surface the winds were nearly calm, but at 100' I started to get pounded. Good thing for seat belts. They were used several times during the next 15 min to keep my body from departing the airframe. I had an unexpected shake test as the turbulence thumpped me sensless. 20 degree buffets left and right and gusts in every direction convinced me that this wasn't fun anymore. Strangely on 100' up on final the turbulence stopped and I got down without breaking anything. That was enough for the day. (so I thought) After getting home, I re-flew my landing enought times that I couldn't shake my disappointment in myself that I went back out to the airport. After checking the wind and watching others overfly I could tell that the turbulence had passed. I jumped in and ran another curcuit and made a great landing just to make sure I could go to bed satisfied with myself. Saturday was the warmest yet. I think we topped 50 degrees! The snow was nearly gone except for the 10' pile at the ramps edge. I decided to do some GPS checks on my cruise speed. I picked up a ground track that followed I-15 south for about 15 minutes. The GPS numbers confirmed my suspicion that I was going pretty slow (one formed by noticing that every car and truck on the interstate was passing me), a whopping 59mph! I turned around and flew northbound and felt a little better now that I was passing the semi trucks. Passenger cars just about stood still as I clocked 74mph! I predict close attention being paid to winds during future cross-country flight planning. I got my first rain drops splattering my windsheild and forehead as I entered the pattern to land. I can't wait for longer-warmer days of spring to arrive! I am very pleased with this little flying machine! Keep building! Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re:spins
Date: Jan 06, 1998
A comment was made the other night about the Piet's spinning characteristics (negative). Anybody on the list spun their airplane and lived to tell the tale? john Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Wright <jwright(at)bcsbel.be.Lucent.com>
Subject: RE: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Steve, If I wasn't ready to build a Piet already - I would be now!! Great update! Jim Wright jgw(at)skynet.be ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Sitka
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Spruce question: I can get 1/4 sawn Sitka 2x6s from a commercial wholesaler here in Toronto in 16 ft lengths. Don't know what the quality is like right now. Assuming I can select planks that meet mil spec, roughly how many boards would I need for the entire airframe? johnk Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: spins
Date: Jan 06, 1998
John Kahn wrote: > A comment was made the other night about the Piet's spinning > characteristics (negative). Anybody on the list spun their airplane > and > lived to tell the tale? > > john > > Bombardier Inc. Not yet, but I can tell you I have never flown a better slipping airplane. You can tell when you are slipping because the airstream gets around the windshield and hits you in the face.(Awesome!) BTW what was the negative spinning comment? Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Sitka
Date: Jan 06, 1998
John Kahn wrote: > Spruce question: > > I can get 1/4 sawn Sitka 2x6s from a commercial wholesaler here in > Toronto > in 16 ft lengths. Don't know what the quality is like right now. > Assuming I can select planks that meet mil spec, roughly how many > boards > would I need for the entire airframe? > > johnk > > Bombardier Inc. About 8. four for the spars. 1 for the longerons. 1 for the tail. 1 for the fuse cross members 1 for everything else. You might get by with seven, I used a total of 108 board feet. The one thing I did hate was watching all that good lumber turn to dust as I cut it to dimension. Stevee PS. Let us know the $$. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: spins
Date: Jan 06, 1998
An engineer I was talking to was just recounting a story of a friend of his that had a Peit years ago who went and spun it and it took a long time to recover. I had read previously that the airplane spun quite nicely, so maybe the particular airplane had CG problems or something. One thing I remember from an Oshkosh forum a couple of years ago was a recommendation to build in about 3 degrees of washout into the wing during the covering process to make the stall characteristics much more benign (the wing has a reputation for wanting to let go all at once in a stall, which would also aggravate the spin tendency). With washout the stall became very docile. johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Sitka
Date: Jan 06, 1998
I was quoted $8.29 Canadian a board foot, which is about 6$ US right now with our dollar way down in the dumps. So that's about 85$ US for a spar. This is a wholesale supplier. They don't sell to the public. I have to buy using a friend's numbered company sales tax codes etc. A spar of certified grade spruce would cost about 50% more. Shouldn't a 2x6 yield a fair amount of cap strip and other material as well even if it's only 1 1/2 x 5 1/2? johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Swivel Tailwheel
Date: Jan 06, 1998
While tuned into the History channel the other night, I saw a really good program on the characteristics of the F4U Corsair. It appears that it had a swivel, non-steerable tailwheel, that was locked for take off and landing. It seems that it would simplify the rigging associated with attaching a steerable tailwheel to the Piet. Any one tried this? Obviously, I am not a tailwheel pilot (yet). I saw comments on the Chat group the other day about someone supplying a unit, but fat fingers errased the message. I see the whole gammut of skid, to fixed tail wheel, to steerable tailwheel, to swivel tailwheel. Can anyone point in the right direction to resolve what the pro's and con's are of each? I have ruled out the skid because I will be on 50% grass and 50% asphalt. All the best in 1998, -=Ian=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: spins
Date: Sep 14, 1997
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > John Kahn wrote: > > > A comment was made the other night about the Piet's spinning > > characteristics (negative). Anybody on the list spun their airplane > > and > > lived to tell the tale? > > > > john > > > > Bombardier Inc. > > Not yet, but I can tell you I have never flown a better slipping > airplane. You can tell when you are slipping because the airstream > gets > around the windshield and hits you in the face.(Awesome!) > > BTW what was the negative spinning comment? Hmm, I have not even tried a stall in mine yet. A 15,000 hour pilot took it up and said it dropped a wing severely and took a few hundred feet to straiten it out - I believe that was power on. He recommended several thousand feet altitude before stall training for someone unfamiliar with the aircraft. My CG is at the aft most limit but I still would not expect J-3 type characteristics from any Piet! My logbook shows loops and rolls from previous owners but I'm content with a nice pasture jumper and I'll leave the more intense maneuvers to airplanes designed for that purpose... Fly Safe Kevin Austin, TX. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Stevee, Are you using a preheating system of some sort? My C-65 wouldn't start the other day when it was 50 or so. I don't have elec. out to my hanger, so I need to come up with a system to get the time warmed up. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Swivel Tailwheel
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Dear Ian: Real Piet Pilots would probably be better informed than me....Have flown Piper Cub, Aeronca Champ, Piper Vagabond and Luscombe. Steerable tailwheel is definitely a plus on airports where you want to keep from hitting other birds. It does wonders for your blood pressure and those who would like to stay friends and fly with you. At these slow speeds you might be O.K., and I think you would go to steerable rather than simple swivel if you taxied both down a flight line with a crosswind blowing. Ian Holland wrote: > While tuned into the History channel the other night, I saw a really good > program on the characteristics of the F4U Corsair. It appears that it had a > swivel, non-steerable tailwheel, that was locked for take off and landing. > It seems that it would simplify the rigging associated with attaching a > steerable tailwheel to the Piet. > > Any one tried this? Obviously, I am not a tailwheel pilot (yet). I saw > comments on the Chat group the other day about someone supplying a unit, > but fat fingers errased the message. > > I see the whole gammut of skid, to fixed tail wheel, to steerable > tailwheel, to swivel tailwheel. Can anyone point in the right direction to > resolve what the pro's and con's are of each? I have ruled out the skid > because I will be on 50% grass and 50% asphalt. > All the best in 1998, > -=Ian=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken(at)aurean.ca>
Subject: Re: Swivel Tailwheel
Date: Jan 06, 1998
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Ian Holland wrote: > While tuned into the History channel the other night, I saw a really good > program on the characteristics of the F4U Corsair. It appears that it had a > swivel, non-steerable tailwheel, that was locked for take off and landing. > It seems that it would simplify the rigging associated with attaching a > steerable tailwheel to the Piet. > > Any one tried this? Obviously, I am not a tailwheel pilot (yet). I saw > comments on the Chat group the other day about someone supplying a unit, > but fat fingers errased the message. > > I see the whole gammut of skid, to fixed tail wheel, to steerable > tailwheel, to swivel tailwheel. Can anyone point in the right direction to > resolve what the pro's and con's are of each? I have ruled out the skid > because I will be on 50% grass and 50% asphalt. > All the best in 1998, > -=Ian=- > Well, with my limited tailwheel experience, I think the best tradeoff is a tailwheel that is stearable but has a spring type lock so that the tailwheel can be made to swivel. This allows you to lock up a wheel and swing the tail gor tight maneuvering but still retain some level of control during take-off, landing and taxiing. Both Scott and Maule make such tailwheels and I believe it's generally agreed that the Scott is a better (though more expensive) unit. I have an old Maule tailwheel that only unlocks when the tail is swung to the right. I'm not sure if this is supposed to work this way or if it's broken. Anyone out there know if this is normal? Actually the tailwheel you described is fairly common among warbirds. I've seen simular arangements on T-6 Harvards (yes, Harvards, I am Canadian after all). I believe they were also used on the P-51 and P-47. BTW, I also saw that episode. Planes of Fame, wasn't it? It's a great show. They walk through everything from the pre-flight to shutdown. So far they've don the P-38, Corsair, PT-17, and my personal favorite, the Chipmunk. They were running all day on Christmas Day on the Speed chanel (I believe). Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Swivel Tailwheel
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Much about tail wheels deleted I use the matco 6" solid tail wheel. It is lighter than certified stuff but still much more beef than is really needed for a piet. It weighs about 4.5 lb. I think. It is steerable and fully swiveling both direction. I have been very satisfied with it so far. I have flown from pavement only so far and can't imagine what is would be like without tw steering. Check their web site. www.matcomfg.com I know that they are avail. from aircraft spruce for about $125. They also have an 8" pneumatic one too. stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Swivel Tailwheel
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Locking full swivel tailwheels were very widely used especially on large taildraggers for many years. You lock the tailwheel straight when you line up on the runway. With the tailwheel locked there is still a fair amount of directional control from rudder and brakes especially as you speed up. The problem is that all directional control when slow taxiing on full swivel is with brakes, so the airplane must have easy to operate wheel brakes. My personal preference is a lock-to-steer/full swivel tailwheel (I will probably have to make it myself) with a locking pin that would lock the steering horn to the wheel fork for steering and you could retract it from the cockpit to let it full swivel. johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: spins
Date: Jan 06, 1998
> From Steve(at)byu.edu Tue Jan 6 13:45:29 1998 > Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:02:16 -0500 > From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com> > Subject: Re: spins > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > Organization: tivoli > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) (via Mercury MTS v1.32 (NDS)) > X-Listname: > Content-Length: 1133 > > Steve Eldredge wrote: > > > > John Kahn wrote: > > > > > A comment was made the other night about the Piet's spinning > > > characteristics (negative). Anybody on the list spun their airplane > > > and > > > lived to tell the tale? > > > > > > john > > > > > > Bombardier Inc. > > > > Not yet, but I can tell you I have never flown a better slipping > > airplane. You can tell when you are slipping because the airstream > > gets > > around the windshield and hits you in the face.(Awesome!) > > > > BTW what was the negative spinning comment? > > Hmm, > I have not even tried a stall in mine yet. A 15,000 hour pilot > took it up and said it dropped a wing severely and took a few > hundred feet to straiten it out - I believe that was power on. > He recommended several thousand feet altitude before stall > training for someone unfamiliar with the aircraft. > > My CG is at the aft most limit but I still would not expect > J-3 type characteristics from any Piet! > > My logbook shows loops and rolls from previous owners but > I'm content with a nice pasture jumper and I'll leave the > more intense maneuvers to airplanes designed for that purpose... > > Fly Safe > Kevin > Austin, TX. > The amatuer aerodynamicist in me thinks that in Piets with no washout a set of stall strips along the inboard wing would cure the nasty stall. I don't believe the problem is in the airfoil. As I understand it, with a rectangular wing and no fuselage intersection to encourage root first separation of the airflow there is no root-first progression and the wing goes all at once unless there is twist (washout). Stall strips along the inboard leading edge might help out a lot by doing more or less the same thing. An aquaintance put stall strips on his Thorp T18 (which stalls like a P-51) and it became a pussycat. It'll be several years before I get to experiment with all this alas... johnk Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry Guyer <cigognes(at)oz.sunflower.org>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 06, 1998
Steve, Congradulations on flying over the holidays. I loved the comment about everyone saying it must be freezing. I flew my Nieuport 17 that same weekend and got the same questions. I try and fly at least once each month of the year. Making a Model B powered bi(piet?) for my wife, and can't wait to get going... Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: Tools, etc... -Reply
Date: Jan 06, 1998
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Tools, etc... -Reply > Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:20 AM > > Richard- I found that taking your .060" and .090" 4130 chromolly sheet steel > to a place which can shear off various width strips for your fittings is > handy. > Ask them to shear parallel to the white printing on the steel too. This shows > the grain of the steel. (Tony B.'s books explain why) Also a band saw with > a slower moving blade works great on fittings. I imagine Bernard P. used > a hack saw for his early planes and that would work fine today as well, but > you'll find out what works best for you as you go. Mike C. ------------A good and very cheap way to cut 4130 sheet metal fittings,is to take a hacksaw blade and grind down the backside of the blade until it will fit into a jigsaw(variable speed is best ).Break of the blade to the desired legnth. Clamp down the sheet stalk to your bench,safety glasses on,and it will cut like butter,even on gentle curves.When the blade wears out,a couple of minutes has a fresh one ready to go.A single 12 inch hacksaw blade will yield several high quality blades.----------Doug Hunt-------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 07, 1998
Steve, Sounds like a lot of fun! Why do you think you are not getting up to 85 m.p.h. like you anticipated? Brent Reed -----Original Message----- From: Steve Eldredge Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: flying 3x in 3days >Flying is great. > >For Christmas my wife (bless her heart) bought me some thermal >underwear, the warmest socks on the planet, and sent me off flying. A >brother in law gave me a new pair of smith snowboard goggles (he owns a >snowboard shop). Needless to say I had few excuses left but to go fly. >The pre-Christmas snow storm had nearly melted off and with all the >family obiligitory visits out of the way the New Years weekend was a >time to fly. I had Thurs and Fri off and the weather turned warm. >Checking my new panel mounted thermometer it was a balmy 39 degrees. I >finished my preflight by hand propping the engine through a half a dozen >times to get the juices flowing (mine) and a little pre-start oiling for >the engine. The old Continetal sprang to life on the second pull and I >even remebered this time to turn on the fuel! After a quick oil >pressure check, I start to pile on the layers of clothing while the >engine warms. A couple of my comrades drive by retreating to their >heated hangers to piddle with their planes. They have become accustomed >to my mid winter flights. Their passengers however-faces glued to the >frosty windows can't believe their eyes as they see this abobinable stay >puff pilot stuffing himself into an open cockpit puddle jumper. I must >have answered the "Isn't it freezing?" question 10 times. It's not >really that bad. Warmer in fact than any snowmobile trip I've been on. >Admitedly though, my flight at 22 degrees was a short one. > >Taxi over for fuel. Filled the tank for $18.01 and flew all three days >and still have some left. Was a joy not to have to shell out 50 clams >an hour anymore. I could really get used to this idea! The flights are >full of things to do. After every flight I add something to the >fix/adjust it list. -provides a good excuse to go flying again. I >think that I finally fixed my tailwheel problem. I cut about 2 inches >out of the spring and nicopressed the tailwheel cables at the most >comfortable length. I can now get the tail down on landing most of the >time. The rest of the time can be blamed on the novice tailwheel >pilot. The static source is still giving me fits. Instead of reading >20mph over now it reads 20mph under. I've tried behind the panel under >the seat, in the rear cockpit, non at all, and now through the rear >cockpit aluminum. For those of you that are still building your wings, >you'll save yourself this greif by running a second line up to your >pitot tube that can be used as a static port. One solution that I did >find is that without the front pit cover on all my static problems go >away. > >Fridays flight was very short. On the surface the winds were nearly >calm, but at 100' I started to get pounded. Good thing for seat belts. >They were used several times during the next 15 min to keep my body from >departing the airframe. I had an unexpected shake test as the >turbulence thumpped me sensless. 20 degree buffets left and right and >gusts in every direction convinced me that this wasn't fun anymore. >Strangely on 100' up on final the turbulence stopped and I got down >without breaking anything. That was enough for the day. (so I >thought) After getting home, I re-flew my landing enought times that I >couldn't shake my disappointment in myself that I went back out to the >airport. After checking the wind and watching others overfly I could >tell that the turbulence had passed. I jumped in and ran another >curcuit and made a great landing just to make sure I could go to bed >satisfied with myself. > >Saturday was the warmest yet. I think we topped 50 degrees! The snow >was nearly gone except for the 10' pile at the ramps edge. I decided to >do some GPS checks on my cruise speed. I picked up a ground track that >followed I-15 south for about 15 minutes. The GPS numbers confirmed my >suspicion that I was going pretty slow (one formed by noticing that >every car and truck on the interstate was passing me), a whopping >59mph! I turned around and flew northbound and felt a little better now >that I was passing the semi trucks. Passenger cars just about stood >still as I clocked 74mph! I predict close attention being paid to winds >during future cross-country flight planning. I got my first rain drops >splattering my windsheild and forehead as I entered the pattern to >land. I can't wait for longer-warmer days of spring to arrive! > >I am very pleased with this little flying machine! > >Keep building! > >Stevee > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net>
Subject: lost mail
Date: Jan 07, 1998
Does anyone have the discussion group e-mail from 12/15/97 to 1/5/98? Seems I have a gap in there. If someone can zip it and e-mail to me I'd sure appreciate it. Steve, thanks for getting me back on line. Bill Talbert ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: News Letter
Date: Jan 07, 1998
Recieved my #58 news letter today. Doug Hunt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 07, 1998
Stevee, For someone from Florida, what are snowboard goggles? Something good for a piet pilot? Something I should be looking for? Ted > A brother in law gave me a new pair of smith snowboard goggles (he owns a >snowboard shop). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 08, 1998
>Steve, > >Sounds like a lot of fun! Why do you think you are not getting up to 85 >m.p.h. like you anticipated? > It is obvious - he was trying to fly level. I love it when the tower asks me to keep my speed up and I push the nose down to get it up to 80 mph - the fastest speed of the trip to land... Go figure. Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Sitka
Date: Jan 08, 1998
John Kahn wrote: > > I was quoted $8.29 Canadian a board foot, which is about 6$ US right now > with our dollar way down in the dumps. > > So that's about 85$ US for a spar. This is a wholesale supplier. They don't > sell to the public. I have to buy using a friend's numbered company sales > tax codes etc. > > A spar of certified grade spruce would cost about 50% more. > > Shouldn't a 2x6 yield a fair amount of cap strip and other material as well > even if it's only 1 1/2 x 5 1/2? > > johnk hi John, If I remember correctly, it was such a long time ago, I believe i did cut all my cap strips from 1x6x16'. Send me your home email. Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Hello list, Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on the Piet and are there any parts available? Thanks, Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 08, 1998
An interesting engine but parts, service, reliability, life expectency, and actual power output indicate that the Continental A-65 is a better choice. But if you want something unique.... ~ktm Robert M. Bailey wrote: > > Hello list, > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > the Piet and are there any parts available? > Thanks, > Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Robert M. Bailey wrote: > > Hello list, > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > the Piet and are there any parts available? > Thanks, > Bob Bailey RUN!!! Don't just walk away! Research it carefully. . . .it came off an airboat because it was TOO dependable & in-spec for aviation use?.... Seriously Bob, low HP Lycomings & Franklins can EAT YOU ALIVE in rebuild costs. I'm sure there are exceptions out there, but look very carefully and plug-in airworthy parts costs before you commit to it. For the money vs. dependability factor, I think I could end-up with with an "A" powered Piet with 5 spare engines. My neighbor/friend/fellow adult- beverage consumer has a $20K+ Flybaby: 4K for airframe + ?? for Lycoming. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Ted Brousseau wrote: > >Steve, > > > >Sounds like a lot of fun! Why do you think you are not getting up to > 85 > >m.p.h. like you anticipated? > > > It is obvious - he was trying to fly level. > Ha ha ha! that is great!I really don't care what my top cruise will be. I choose the wrong design if I was looking for better cruise. > I love it when the tower asks me to keep my speed up and I push the > nose > down to get it up to 80 mph - the fastest speed of the trip to land... > Go > figure. > > Ted Brousseau/APF Snowboard goggles BTW are just like ski goggles as far as I can tell, unless you are talking to an avid snowboarder. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David <dsiebert(at)gate.net>
Subject: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Any feedback on using the CAM Honda conversion in an Piet? It weighs around 240 lbs and puts out around 100 hp. I just feel it would be more reliable than a flat head. Website http://www.eclipsecat.com The home of Advantage Software the makers of Eclipse ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
The CAM conversion is pretty expensive in the end, as are the soob conversions once you pay for all the reduction drive stuff. Ironically I think the cheapest way to go is with one of the small continentals, or the model A/B. The Ford engine is pretty reliable, and has a very robust looking forged crank with a huge bearing at the propeller end, just like a...well.. an aircraft engine. I have not heard of them coming apart internally... One engine I would like to use is Model B engine (which has an even beefier crank with full pressure lube) and which can be made to produce over 60 hp. It was a certificated engine in the prewar Funk airplanes. johnk Bombardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
"I just feel it would be more reliable than a flat head." It's funny how often we hear that the old Ford engines are unreliable and yet the most common failure is with the one aircraft part mounted to that engine....the mag! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
> From Steve(at)byu.edu Thu Jan 8 15:03:00 1998 > Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 11:57:47 -0800 > From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> > Subject: Re: Honda engine > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) (via Mercury MTS v1.32 (NDS)) > X-Listname: > Content-Length: 234 > > > "I just feel it would be more reliable than a flat head." > > It's funny how often we hear that the old Ford engines are unreliable > and yet the most common failure is with the one aircraft part mounted to > that engine....the mag! > > Bill > > And you can get a dual ignition head for it to get around that problem as well. There *is* another auto engine I've always wanted to investigate deeper... It's actually a truck engine; the NAPS-Z series used in Datsun pickups through the early 80s. It's an inline 4 with aluminum head, an alloy forged crank, 5 main bearings, in the 2 litre range... and it has a DUAL IGNITION head.... yup, two plugs per cylinder... you could run one set of plugs from the distributor hole and the other set from a mag driven from the cam or somewhere... Being a truck motor it should be able to produce 60-70 hp in the low 2000 rpm range without too much trouble, direct drive. Unlike the model A you would need to run the prop off an extension shaft with a support housing/bearing like the Wittman V-8 conversion. johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
The old Ford engines do have breathing problems but the low rpm, and that long rear main bearing to handle gyroscopic loads sure make the direct drive viable. Simplicity! I always thought the Datsun had dual plugs for emmission reasons. I think they turned off one set at higher manifold pressures. ? Sure do like my Honda Civic though its so damn reliable I call it the fridge. Use it forget it! Now does that reliability move with the engine to the airframe????? J Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
> > The old Ford engines do have breathing problems but the low rpm, and > that long rear main bearing to handle gyroscopic loads sure make the > direct drive viable. Simplicity! > I always thought the Datsun had dual plugs for emmission reasons. I > think they turned off one set at higher manifold pressures. ? > Sure do like my Honda Civic though its so damn reliable I call it the > fridge. Use it forget it! Now does that reliability move with the If you go to the Ford links on the Piet web site you can find an article by a fella that got the Model A up to 65 HP with the right head carb combination. That's at about 2300 RPM, still plently low enough for a good size prop. On a NAPS-Z engine I would use the dual plug head but dispense with the dual head ignition rotor in favour of a true dual ignition installation, say a normal distributor in the distributor hole and a mag driven somewhere else. The other nice thing about the Datsun engine is the cam is driven by a duplex roller chain instead of a belt. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 08, 1998
clawler wrote: > Stevee, > > Are you using a preheating system of some sort? My C-65 wouldn't start > > the other day when it was 50 or so. I don't have elec. out to my > hanger, > so I need to come up with a system to get the time warmed up. > > Craig Craig, Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier. Funny you should mention this. I had the most difficult time starting my engine when it was around 48-50 degrees. I cant say that it really means what it implies, cause I think that I have learned something about starting these old engines. I have found that during preflight after checking the oil that pulling the blades through 12 times or so with the fuel off loossens things up a bit. After the preflight is done, but before going mags hot, I again flip the prop, but this time with the fuel on, and with gusto. Gutso= grabbing the prop with both hands, one on each blade (one overhand one underhand) and spinning the prop through as fast as I can. I have found that if I can build enough momentum up to get the prop through one extra compression stroke after I let go it is lubricated enough. This action also creates enough suction to get the fuel into the cylinders. At this point I go mags hot (check tailwheel for tie-down) full rich, throttle completely closed, and give it a good flip with both hands on the decending blade, leg doing the swing kick and all. If it doesn't start on the first or second pull, I go mags cold and do a couple more gusto flips. After the engine starts I leave it running at idle and check oil pressure. I get about 10-15lbs. I use this engine warm up time get dressed in my warm gear. I let it idle for about 5 min before going to 1000rpm. Hope this helps Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 08, 1998
John Kahn wrote: > > From Steve(at)byu.edu Thu Jan 8 15:03:00 1998 > > Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 11:57:47 -0800 > > From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> > > Subject: Re: Honda engine > > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) (via Mercury MTS v1.32 > (NDS)) > > X-Listname: > > Content-Length: 234 > > > > > > "I just feel it would be more reliable than a flat head." > > > > It's funny how often we hear that the old Ford engines are > unreliable > > and yet the most common failure is with the one aircraft part > mounted to > > that engine....the mag! > > > > Bill > > > > > > And you can get a dual ignition head for it to get around that problem > > as well. > > There *is* another auto engine I've always wanted to investigate > deeper... > > It's actually a truck engine; the NAPS-Z series used in Datsun > pickups > through the early 80s. It's an inline 4 with aluminum head, an alloy > forged crank, 5 main bearings, in the 2 litre range... > > and it has a DUAL IGNITION head.... yup, two plugs per cylinder... you > > could run one set of plugs from the distributor hole and the other set > > from a mag driven from the cam or somewhere... > > Being a truck motor it should be able to produce 60-70 hp in the low > 2000 > rpm range without too much trouble, direct drive. Unlike the model A > you > would need to run the prop off an extension shaft with a support > housing/bearing like the Wittman V-8 conversion. > > johnk Hey I thought I was the only one with this dream! I have had four nissan pick-ups and loved each one. We drove them for 100k + miles and sell it and buy a new one. Currently I own a 90' Nissan with the Z24 engine 4 cyl 134hp 93K miles and runs like a top. Even if I did run it out of gas last night on the hiway. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager)
Subject: Passenger door
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Hi guys Happy new year Have any of you guys seen or may have a Piet with a passenger door. The other weekend I dummied up the center wing struts and put a rib where in should go, blocked the fueselage up where it will be when gear is under it. Than got the dear wifey to try to get in the passenger seat, well it didnt go over very well specialy after the coke crate slipped out from under her when she was getting out, any to keep peace in the family I promised to see about a door. Some where I remember reading about someone selling plans if any of you can help maybe I can get her interest back up. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Passenger Door
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Dear Rick: The Piet at Yesterday's Wings has a nice looking door...design by Garry S. Price, Director/Curator. He sells several of his design packages for $35.00 each. I don't know if the door is one. Also check out the YW pictures at http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet/pics.html. where, if you look closely, you will find a picture of a passenger door. See BPA issue 51, 1st Quarter 1996 for more info on Yesterdays Wings. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyer(at)clas.net
Subject: Passenger door
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Sorry .....didn't mean to send this to whole group. Bruce ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mpj01 <Mpj01(at)aol.com>
Subject: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Hi fellow piet builders, I'm currently building an "A" powered piet with a friend, and I have a few questions. Has anyone had any luck putting the radiator in front like an Jenny? How is dihedral put into the three piece wing and is it nessesary? I've thought of cutting the center spars to give about 3/8 inch dihedral at the wing tip. Thanks..... mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Passenger Door
Date: Jan 08, 1998
Dear Rick: Also look on page 9 of BPA issue 53-3rd Quarter 1996...has very good picture of Yesterdays Wings door. Best Regards, Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net>
Subject:
Date: Jan 08, 1998
I only have one question . does anyone else have trouble with their explorer browser when someone adds an attachment to the piet disscussion group or is it just me!!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Re:
Date: Jan 08, 1998
It's just you. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: PHIL PECK <crusader(at)thegrid.net> Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 8:01 PM >I only have one question . does anyone else have trouble with their >explorer browser when someone adds an attachment to the piet disscussion >group or is it just me!!!! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 09, 1998
> From Steve(at)byu.edu Thu Jan 8 16:54:10 1998 > Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 14:49:06 -0700 > From: Steve Eldredge > Subject: Re: Honda engine > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) (via Mercury MTS v1.32 (NDS)) > X-Listname: > Content-Length: 1998 > > John Kahn wrote: > > > > From Steve(at)byu.edu Thu Jan 8 15:03:00 1998 > > > Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 11:57:47 -0800 > > > From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> > > > Subject: Re: Honda engine > > > Sender: Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu > > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > > Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) (via Mercury MTS v1.32 > > (NDS)) > > > X-Listname: > > > Content-Length: 234 > > > > > > > > > "I just feel it would be more reliable than a flat head." > > > > > > It's funny how often we hear that the old Ford engines are > > unreliable > > > and yet the most common failure is with the one aircraft part > > mounted to > > > that engine....the mag! > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > And you can get a dual ignition head for it to get around that problem > > > > as well. > > > > There *is* another auto engine I've always wanted to investigate > > deeper... > > > > It's actually a truck engine; the NAPS-Z series used in Datsun > > pickups > > through the early 80s. It's an inline 4 with aluminum head, an alloy > > forged crank, 5 main bearings, in the 2 litre range... > > > > and it has a DUAL IGNITION head.... yup, two plugs per cylinder... you > > > > could run one set of plugs from the distributor hole and the other set > > > > from a mag driven from the cam or somewhere... > > > > Being a truck motor it should be able to produce 60-70 hp in the low > > 2000 > > rpm range without too much trouble, direct drive. Unlike the model A > > you > > would need to run the prop off an extension shaft with a support > > housing/bearing like the Wittman V-8 conversion. > > > > johnk > > Hey I thought I was the only one with this dream! I have had four > nissan pick-ups and loved each one. We drove them for 100k + miles and > sell it and buy a new one. Currently I own a 90' Nissan with the Z24 > engine 4 cyl 134hp 93K miles and runs like a top. Even if I did run it > out of gas last night on the hiway. > > Stevee > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Honda engine
Date: Jan 09, 1998
> > Hey I thought I was the only one with this dream! I have had four > nissan pick-ups and loved each one. We drove them for 100k + miles and > sell it and buy a new one. Currently I own a 90' Nissan with the Z24 > engine 4 cyl 134hp 93K miles and runs like a top. Even if I did run it > out of gas last night on the hiway. > > Stevee > > Ooops... finger trouble on the last post... If it makes 134 hp, probably in the upper 3000 rpm range being a truck engine, it should easily manage 70 hp or better at 2500 donchathink? I'd love to get the power curve for that motor. Wonder what it weighs stripped down? johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re:
Date: Jan 09, 1998
PHIL PECK wrote: > > I only have one question . does anyone else have trouble with their > explorer browser when someone adds an attachment to the piet disscussion > group or is it just me!!!! Yes, me too Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re:
Date: Jan 09, 1998
Mine works OK. > From: Robert M. Bailey > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: > Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 10:30 AM > > PHIL PECK wrote: > > > > I only have one question . does anyone else have trouble with their > > explorer browser when someone adds an attachment to the piet disscussion > > group or is it just me!!!! > Yes, me too > Bob Bailey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 09, 1998
Stevee, Thanks I'll try you system Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 2.5 ltr. General Motors
Date: Jan 09, 1998
I was enjoying the latest Sport Aviation (Jan 98) when I noticed a picture of a beautiful blue and gold Piet (p 126). Then I noticed that the description said it had a 2.5 ltr. General Motors engine. Does anyone know anything about this engine? Is he running a reduction drive? Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 09, 1998
I have a radiator on the nose of my Ford Fiesta Piet - about 125 sq. in. with 2 inch cores - there isn't a lot of room up there for much more. Perhaps due to the flat faced nose or the proximity to the prop, not enough cool air passed through the radiator; in fact the coolant boiled out on me (literally) on the first flight and on a number of times afterward while I tried various modifications. Finally, I added a radiator of about 60 sq. in. under the fuselage in series with the one in the nose and the engine has been happy for over 300 hours. Some people have told me that some of the old Jennies were similarly modified, though I haven't seen one. Jim Malley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: scherer2(at)airmail.net (Glenn Scherer)
Subject: Re: 2.5 ltr. General Motors
Date: Jan 10, 1998
>I was enjoying the latest Sport Aviation (Jan 98) when I noticed a >picture of a beautiful blue and gold Piet (p 126). Then I noticed that >the description said it had a 2.5 ltr. General Motors engine. Does >anyone know anything about this engine? Is he running a reduction drive? > Gotta be the old "Iron Duke" 2.5L OHV four. Used up through the Chevy Citation series, late 80's, perhaps later. Seems like it would weigh a good bit more than a model A, but owner claims empty weight of 615 pounds. From the position of the prop relative to the engine, I'd guess he's running it direct drive. I wonder how big the end bearings are. | | Glenn Scherer __| ~~~: Farmersville, TX USA \ ) scherer2(at)airmail.net \/\ / \_( ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 09, 1998
Mpj01 wrote: > > Hi fellow piet builders, > I'm currently building an "A" powered piet with a friend, and I have a few > questions. > Has anyone had any luck putting the radiator in front like an Jenny? > How is dihedral put into the three piece wing and is it nessesary? I've > thought of cutting the center spars to give about 3/8 inch dihedral at the > wing tip. > Thanks..... > mike Hi Mike, With the help of two friends and 1" x 2" support structure under each wing we first leveled the wing. The center section carry-through spars and root spars of both wings were cut to allow for dihedral. Next 1 degree was calculated and the end of the wing lifted to that dimension (what ever it was I don't remember now. But more importantly and I have yet to perform this is to add (and I have to check this out yet ) is a 1 to 1 and Half degree washout. This will help with the Pietenpol sudden Stall Characteristic. I'm told that because of the high wing design it does not have the normal fuselage to wing root connection to help with a more gentle stall characteristic, and if there is no washout the wing stalls all at once. Some people install a stall bar about a foot in from the center fittings on both leading edges. Anyway if you do any futher homework on this subject please let me know. Domenic Bellissimo DCSBell(at)netcom.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 09, 1998
>Snowboard goggles BTW are just like ski goggles as far as I can tell, >unless you are talking to an avid snowboarder. > Stevee, You just don't get it do you? What are ski goggles like? Remember, I am in Florida!!! Ted Brousseau/APF nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net Sunny SW Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 09, 1998
Robert M. Bailey wrote: > > Hello list, > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > the Piet and are there any parts available? > Thanks, > Bob Bailey I remember Richard Burton of Hockley Valley, Ontario (a Pietenpol Flyer) telling me of this firm in Florida that had a lot of lycomings that they rebuild and were for sale for use in air boats. Richard approached the firm to inquire about their use in aircraft engines and the firm did not recommend it. The firm's rebuild parts were not certified parts, some were remanufactured but not to airworthiness standards and some were new but also not certified. Apparently you could purchase a rebuilt 65 for $3,000.00 and a used engine for air-boat use. Regards, Dom. Bellissimo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan A. Laudani"
Subject: Re: Strut and Cabanes
Date: Jan 09, 1998
>Brad Schultz wrote: > >> What's the recomended size tubing for the cabanes and struts? >> Bernie's >> plans don't reflect todays sizes. >> >> Brad Schultz >> brsch(at)afcon.net >> NX899BS > >Get the equivalent round tubing conversion table in the aircraft spruce >catalog. I used it to find the size then went up one size just for >safety's sake. I think I ended up with something like 1-1/4" x .049. >don't clearly remember however. >Stevee > I like Stevee's answer, but I would also check out airplane known for their great loads, like a PITTs' Special. Join your local EAA chapter and see other airplanes finished and in process. Nothing like eyeballing another's work to see if your own work measure's up. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mpj01 <Mpj01(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 10, 1998
Jim, Thanks for your reply. I've seen photos of your plane and it's even on Kim Strikers Broadhead video. Looks very nice. Do you think you'll fly there again? Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mpj01 <Mpj01(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 10, 1998
Domenic, Thanks for your reply. I plan on visiting with Don pietenpol this afternoon, I live about 20 miles away from him. I have a few other questions for him as well. If I find anything out I'll get back to you. mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 10, 1998
> From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days > Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 4:17 PM > > clawler wrote: > > > Stevee, > > > > Are you using a preheating system of some sort? My C-65 wouldn't start > > > > the other day when it was 50 or so. I don't have elec. out to my > > hanger, > > so I need to come up with a system to get the time warmed up. > > > > Craig > > Craig, > > Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier. Funny you should mention this. > I had the most difficult time starting my engine when it was around > 48-50 degrees. I cant say that it really means what it implies, cause > I think that I have learned something about starting these old engines. > I have found that during preflight after checking the oil that pulling > the blades through 12 times or so with the fuel off loossens things up > a bit. After the preflight is done, but before going mags hot, I again > flip the prop, but this time with the fuel on, and with gusto. Gutso= > grabbing the prop with both hands, one on each blade (one overhand one > underhand) and spinning the prop through as fast as I can. I have found > that if I can build enough momentum up to get the prop through one extra > compression stroke after I let go it is lubricated enough. This action > also creates enough suction to get the fuel into the cylinders. At this > point I go mags hot (check tailwheel for tie-down) full rich, throttle > completely closed, and give it a good flip with both hands on the > decending blade, leg doing the swing kick and all. If it doesn't start > on the first or second pull, I go mags cold and do a couple more gusto > flips. After the engine starts I leave it running at idle and check oil > pressure. I get about 10-15lbs. I use this engine warm up time get > dressed in my warm gear. I let it idle for about 5 min before going to > 1000rpm. > > Hope this helps > > Stevee > Re "cold start" Here in Alberta ,50 degrees means the mosquitoes are just a bit sluggish,and you may be thinking of a jacket.I fly 46 CHAMP WITH A C-85 NO ELECTRICS WITH IMPULSE MAG.The preflight starts with giving the primer 4 to 5 full shots of primer,remaining preflight is then carried out.Then standing BEHIND the prop,were throttle can be seen,2 non dramatic flips of the prop will usually have it running.With impulse mags, great effort on the prop is not needed. By primming first and allowing 5 to 10 minutes for the fuel to vapourize before starting seems to help. There are small propane fueled heaters you may consider if yours is difficult to start,but at temps above 15 to 20 f. should not be required ,certainly not at 50 deg.f. Happy aviating Doug. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 10, 1998
Jim, Could you give us some more info about your Fiesta installation. What kind of ignition system, prop reduction, electrical system(?), etc. >Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 21:20:55 -0500 (EST) >From: GMalley <GMalley(at)aol.com> >Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > >I have a radiator on the nose of my Ford Fiesta Piet - about 125 sq. in. with >2 inch cores - there isn't a lot of room up there for much more. Perhaps due >to the flat faced nose or the proximity to the prop, not enough cool air >passed through the radiator; in fact the coolant boiled out on me (literally) >on the first flight and on a number of times afterward while I tried various >modifications. Finally, I added a radiator of about 60 sq. in. under the >fuselage in series with the one in the nose and the engine has been happy for >over 300 hours. Some people have told me that some of the old Jennies were >similarly modified, though I haven't seen one. > >Jim Malley > Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 10, 1998
>But more importantly and I have >yet to perform this is to add (and I have to check this out yet ) is a 1 >to 1 and Half degree washout. This will help with the Pietenpol sudden >Stall Characteristic. I'm told that because of the high wing design it >does not have the normal fuselage to wing root connection to help with a >more gentle stall characteristic, and if there is no washout the wing >stalls all at once. Some people install a stall bar about a foot in from >the center fittings on both leading edges. Anyway if you do any futher >homework on this subject please let me know. > >Domenic Bellissimo >DCSBell(at)netcom.ca > I attended a Pietenpol discussion at Oshkosh a couple of years ago. In it Vi Kapler recommended about 3/8 in washout. He said that Bernie did not think that this was necessary, but that he thought it made the stall characteristics better. Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Swanson
Subject: Wing Rib measurements and photocopies
Date: Jan 10, 1998
I am just starting to lay out my wing rib jig. I had a copy of the full size layout received from Don Pietenpol made. On my copy, the distance between the spars was 27.5 inches, not 27.75 as noted on the drawing. Also, the deflection on the lower edge was .5 inches, not .625 as shown on the drawing. BEWARE OF USING PHOTOCOPIES ON SCALED DRAWINGS! This may be common knowledge, but it was new to me. On a similar note, I measured the bottom deflection on the drawing received from Don Pietenpol. It is a maximum of 9/16, rather than 5/8 shown in the drawings. Is this enough to make a difference, am I picking at nits, and can I use the original as the layout print for the rib jig? What is the required accuracy of the airfoil? Words of knowledge will be greatly appreciated. Al Swanson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan A. Laudani"
Subject: Re: attachments
Date: Jan 10, 1998
You could upgrade your browser for free, assuming its Internet Explorer, to 4.0. Contact your internet provider or search for "microsoft" + "Explorer". Or, You could also check your browser directory for "funny named files" that were not there after you installed your browser. Check dates on file details. >PHIL PECK wrote: >> >> I only have one question . does anyone else have trouble with their >> explorer browser when someone adds an attachment to the piet disscussion >> group or is it just me!!!! >Yes, me too >Bob Bailey > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan A. Laudani"
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 10, 1998
Ted, You Floridians are usually transplanted snowbirds who should know better. Of course you could get in an airplane and fly to mountains to ski or snowboard. Skiing is the closest you can get personally to flying without wings, engine or chute! If you use a jump, you can catch some "air". (Tahoe is a ski area that has sun 250+ days a year!) Watch out for moving trees. > >>Snowboard goggles BTW are just like ski goggles as far as I can tell, >>unless you are talking to an avid snowboarder. >> >Stevee, > >You just don't get it do you? What are ski goggles like? Remember, I am in >Florida!!! > >Ted Brousseau/APF >nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net >Sunny SW Florida > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Passenger door
Date: Jan 11, 1998
Rick Rager wrote: > > Some where I remember reading about someone selling plans if any of you can > help maybe I can get her interest back up. Hi Rick! Glad I'm not the only one who has to consider the spouse getting in and out of the front Piet cockpit! I got the door plans from Garry Price at Yesterday's Wings and it looks well thought out. His door is for wood fuselage Air Campers only. There are a few fuselage members to add to carry the loads around the door frame, but he has tried to minimize the weight impact by routing them out. I thought it was a fair trade to make it easier for the wife and kids to enjoy the plane. You can find mention of Yesterday's Wings on the Buckeye Pietenpol Association website. He also has plans for 3-piece wings, fuel tanks, tailwheel assemblies and aileron mods. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Wire Spoked Wheels
Date: Jan 11, 1998
Thanks to all the guys who provided the weights and other details on their wire spoked wheels. Helps me with the weight and balance spreadsheet for the Piet and the design of my 80% scale WWI Albatross DI fighter (uses the same size wheels)! Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 11, 1998
Robert, There is a Piet baised at Williamsport Pa with a Lycoming 65 in it. I am not sure who owns it now, but the people at Aeroflight would know. I was built by Bill Silk up at Tunkannick Pa. Carl Nicewinder from X\Sunbury owned it for several year and flew it quite a bit. Someone from Textron in Williamsport said the engine should be in a museum. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu
Subject: Re:More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 11, 1998
PI>Richard, About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding machine to be very useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a four inch wide belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. They are good for cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. He did not have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock one night, then went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they weren't accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he had a terrible time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to this, just keep it in mind. John Fay ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 12, 1998
Dean Dayton wrote: > > >But more importantly and I have > >yet to perform this is to add (and I have to check this out yet ) is a > 1 > >to 1 and Half degree washout. This will help with the Pietenpol sudden > >Stall Characteristic. I'm told that because of the high wing design it > >does not have the normal fuselage to wing root connection to help with > a > >more gentle stall characteristic, and if there is no washout the wing > >stalls all at once. Some people install a stall bar about a foot in > from > >the center fittings on both leading edges. Anyway if you do any futher > >homework on this subject please let me know. > > > >Domenic Bellissimo > >DCSBell(at)netcom.ca > > > I attended a Pietenpol discussion at Oshkosh a couple of years ago. In > it Vi Kapler recommended about 3/8 in washout. He said that Bernie did > not think that this was necessary, but that he thought it made the stall > characteristics better. > > Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com > Thanks Dean for the information. I'll do some math and see what 3/8" yields in degrees. Regards, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken(at)aurean.ca>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 12, 1998
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Ted Brousseau wrote: > > >Snowboard goggles BTW are just like ski goggles as far as I can tell, > >unless you are talking to an avid snowboarder. > > > Stevee, > > You just don't get it do you? What are ski goggles like? Remember, I am in > Florida!!! > > Ted Brousseau/APF > nfn00979(at)gator.naples.net > Sunny SW Florida > > Oh, in that case, they are a lot like snowmobile goggles ;=) Actually, they are plastic lense goggles that have vents around the sides to allow them to remain fog free. They are very comfortable to wear (I've had mine on skiing all day without any discomfort). They come in either tinted or clear. Some of the tints they use today are actuall quite good for night skiing which may carry over into flying. THe wrap around design will also work well for pilots. You can get sets to work with or without glasses underneath. Finally, if you'd like to take a look at a set, try out: http://www.oakley.com/product/goggles/ Not advertising, just giving you a site with some pics ;-). Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators
Date: Jan 12, 1998
> From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca> > Subject: Re: wing dihedral and radiators > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > Organization: None > Mpj01 wrote: > > > > Hi fellow piet builders, > > I'm currently building an "A" powered piet with a friend, and I have a few > > questions. > > Has anyone had any luck putting the radiator in front like an Jenny? > > How is dihedral put into the three piece wing and is it nessesary? I've > > thought of cutting the center spars to give about 3/8 inch dihedral at the > > wing tip. > > Thanks..... > > mike > Hi Mike, > > With the help of two friends and 1" x 2" support structure under each > wing we first leveled the wing. The center section carry-through spars > and root spars of both wings were cut to allow for dihedral. Next 1 > degree was calculated and the end of the wing lifted to that dimension > (what ever it was I don't remember now. But more importantly and I have > yet to perform this is to add (and I have to check this out yet ) is a 1 > to 1 and Half degree washout. This will help with the Pietenpol sudden > Stall Characteristic. I'm told that because of the high wing design it > does not have the normal fuselage to wing root connection to help with a > more gentle stall characteristic, and if there is no washout the wing > stalls all at once. Some people install a stall bar about a foot in from > the center fittings on both leading edges. Anyway if you do any futher > homework on this subject please let me know. > > Domenic Bellissimo > DCSBell(at)netcom.ca > Just a thought guys; perhaps Bernie didn't think dihedral or washout was nessacary because the high wing gives the roll stability due to the pendulum effect of the fuselage hanging under the wing. I wonder how effective the center section is with the radiator disturbing that air flow. Would the disturbed air at the center section take the edge off of the stall? Perhaps Bernie's Ford power has more advantages than are first apparent. J Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken(at)aurean.ca>
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 12, 1998
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Robert M. Bailey wrote: > Hello list, > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > the Piet and are there any parts available? > Thanks, > Bob Bailey If it will run, why not just use it. It's not that hard to set it up on a test stand and check everything out. If you are getting good compressions, not throwing oil or producung metal, give it a whirl. If it's too expensive to O/H down the road, you'll at least have gotten a couple of years use out of it. It's better than tossing the thing. If you do plan on tossing it, let me know. I need an MS-3SPA or simular carb and would be interested in buying it. I'd even consider a Stromberg. Ken. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry Guyer <cigognes(at)oz.sunflower.org>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 12, 1998
Ok, here's my A65 starting tech.. also with 2 impulse couplers on my Luscombe 8A. pull 12 times with mags off one shot prime pull one or two blades one more shot prime throtle cracked 1/8 inch no more mags hot flip prop with one hand (no great effort) It seems when ever some one trys to help me and they give a big kick a__ pull I end up having to do all sorts of things to get back in the groove. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Wright <jwright(at)bcsbel.be.Lucent.com>
Subject: RE: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 13, 1998
I think Ken's pragmatic viewpoint is very smart! I'm curious though...a question to the group. If we can run non-certified engines in a Piet (Model A, Corvair, etc), then why couldn't you use a Lycoming airboat engine and rebuild it with the less expensive non-certified parts. As long as proper care was taken in how you build-up the motor, I would think that safety would not be an issue. Someone was saying the other day that the Model B Ford engine had be "certified" before too. Maybe this Lycoming idea isn't so bad. Jim Wright jgw(at)skynet.be -----Original Message----- From: Wright, James Glynn, III (Jim) [SMTP:jgw(at)lucent.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 00:51 Subject: Pietenpol-List: FW: Lycoming O-145 > >---------- >From: Ken Beanlands >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 12:46:21 AM >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145 >Auto forwarded by a Rule > On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Robert M. Bailey wrote: > Hello list, > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > the Piet and are there any parts available? > Thanks, > Bob Bailey If it will run, why not just use it. It's not that hard to set it up on a test stand and check everything out. If you are getting good compressions, not throwing oil or producung metal, give it a whirl. If it's too expensive to O/H down the road, you'll at least have gotten a couple of years use out of it. It's better than tossing the thing. If you do plan on tossing it, let me know. I need an MS-3SPA or simular carb and would be interested in buying it. I'd even consider a Stromberg. Ken. (_) (_) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: RE: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 13, 1998
> On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Robert M. Bailey wrote: > > > Hello list, > > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > > the Piet and are there any parts available? > > Thanks, > > Bob Bailey > > If it will run, why not just use it. It's not that hard to set it up on > a > test stand and check everything out. If you are getting good > compressions, not throwing oil or producung metal, give it a whirl. If > it's too expensive to O/H down the road, you'll at least have gotten a > couple of years use out of it. It's better than tossing the thing. If > you > do plan on tossing it, let me know. I need an MS-3SPA or simular carb > and > would be interested in buying it. I'd even consider a Stromberg. > > Ken. > Get a Lycoming overhaul manual and tear the engine down, do a dye penetrant on the case and cylinders to look for cracks, get the crank and rods magnafluxed at a community college, buy new pistons, etc.... if the innards check out ok and can be rebuilt to overhaul manual specs without having to buy major parts, use the engine. If it was used in an airboat any internal damage that makes it unuseable will show up when you check out the internal parts. I think the main thing that happens to airboat engines is damage from overheating. johnk Bomabardier Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey)
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 13, 1998
Hello list, Thanks for all the comments, it seems that the majority opinion is to proceed, but with caution. The engine is not in runnable condition (missing carb and mags) but the price was right. It was given to me by a friend that had no need for it. I get the overhaul manuals and go from there. Again Thanks, Bob B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 13, 1998
Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get away with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of someone doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. (or something) Stevee Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote: > PI>Richard, > > About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding > machine to be very > useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a > four inch wide > belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. They > are good for > cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. > He did not > have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock > one night, then > went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they > weren't > accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he had > a terrible > time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to > this, just keep it in > mind. > > John Fay ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Rib pics?
Date: Jan 13, 1998
Finally, after 5 months of reading, drooling, visiting other builders, and setting up my site, I am now ready to begin my ribs! Does anyone have any close-up pictures of ribs I could take a look at before I begin? Thanks all! Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 13, 1998
> Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get away > with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of someone > doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. (or > something) > > Stevee > > You *should* sand birch ply where it is to be glued. There is a glazed surface in the ply from the manufacturing process that needs to be removed. johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 13, 1998
> From: Jim Wright <jwright(at)bcsbel.be.Lucent.com> > Subject: RE: Lycoming O-145 > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > I think Ken's pragmatic viewpoint is very smart! I'm curious though...a > question to the group. > > If we can run non-certified engines in a Piet (Model A, Corvair, etc), then > why couldn't you use a Lycoming airboat engine and rebuild it with the less > expensive non-certified parts. As long as proper care was taken in how you > build-up the motor, I would think that safety would not be an issue. > Someone was saying the other day that the Model B Ford engine had be > "certified" before too. > > Maybe this Lycoming idea isn't so bad. > > Jim Wright > jgw(at)skynet.be > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wright, James Glynn, III (Jim) [SMTP:jgw(at)lucent.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 00:51 > To: Jim Wright > Subject: FW: Lycoming O-145 > > > > > >---------- > >From: Ken Beanlands > >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 12:46:21 AM > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145 > >Auto forwarded by a Rule > > > On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Robert M. Bailey wrote: > > > Hello list, > > Does anyone have experience with the 65hp Lycoming? I have one that > > probably saw service on a airboat. Is it worth rebuilding for use on > > the Piet and are there any parts available? > > Thanks, > > Bob Bailey > > If it will run, why not just use it. It's not that hard to set it up on > a > test stand and check everything out. If you are getting good > compressions, not throwing oil or producung metal, give it a whirl. If > it's too expensive to O/H down the road, you'll at least have gotten a > couple of years use out of it. It's better than tossing the thing. If > you > do plan on tossing it, let me know. I need an MS-3SPA or simular carb > and > would be interested in buying it. I'd even consider a Stromberg. > > Ken. > > (_) (_) > Here is a quick test if you have two engines that will take the same prop. If they will both spin the prop at the same static rpm then it holds true that they are developing equal power. The prop is a torque absorbsion unit. It takes 33 bhp to make a stock Piet climb at miniumum climb. that gives you 7 hp more than you need with an A Ford and almost twice that with a Continental or Any other 65 horse engine. Horsepower is only a measurement of the rate of doing work. The work I'm interested in my engine doing is pulling my wood and rag creation into the atmosphere. Isn't the view great? It shouldn't matter other than aesthetics what engine is creating the horsepower and thrust. I do like the old and slow as well as Grant's low and slow motto. If you can get reliable power for less money, go for it! The Model B was never certified as it came from Ford. The Funk brothers made substantial changes to it: -they inverted it -used chrysler industrial oil pump -thier own cylinder head -etc.. The later Funk aircraft switched to Continental power. What ever engine you choose to use make sure to keep the systems simple and sure. Most engine failures are a result of simple little problems ignored. Fuel flow, Ignition, controls etc.. One of the best test stands is your own airframe as your systems are all there too. Safe building and Flying J Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager)
Subject: passenger door
Date: Jan 13, 1998
Hi Guys: Just wanted to thank the group for the info on the passenger door thing. I took Warrens advice and checked out Richards DeCostas collection of Piet pictures. After browsing through about 10 or 20 pictures I thought maybe I died and went to heaven. Any way I now have a door in the side of the Piet and had the wife try it out. I'm building with her blessing again. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: passenger door
Date: Jan 13, 1998
Rick, We have two doors on our Piet. I have never seen the slightest flex because of the door being there - and that was during some pretty hard landings when new at it. Ted Brousseau Naples Florida >Hi Guys: > Just wanted to thank the group for the info on the passenger door thing. >I took Warrens advice and checked out Richards DeCostas collection of Piet >pictures. After browsing through about 10 or 20 pictures I thought maybe I >died and went to heaven. > Any way I now have a door in the side of the Piet and had the wife >try it out. I'm building with her blessing again. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 13, 1998
No offense Steve, but I've been told to sand, and sand each and every glued surface to remove the purported glaze and also rough it up a bit. It's good practice to use thinner to clean off the surface to remove sanding dust and sap afterwards though.... My test coupons have never broke on the glue line when doing this. Larry Steve Eldredge wrote: > Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get away > with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of someone > doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. (or > something) > > Stevee > > Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote: > > > PI>Richard, > > > > About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding > > machine to be very > > useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a > > four inch wide > > belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. They > > are good for > > cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. > > He did not > > have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock > > one night, then > > went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they > > weren't > > accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he had > > a terrible > > time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to > > this, just keep it in > > mind. > > > > John Fay ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 14, 1998
>No offense Steve, but I've been told to sand, and sand each and every glued >surface to remove the purported glaze and also rough it up a bit. >It's good practice to use thinner to clean off the surface to remove sanding >dust and sap afterwards though.... >My test coupons have never broke on the glue line when doing this. > >Larry What Larry says above is what I've read in Tony Bingelis' books as well. (especially the birch plywood) I think the key here is to get the dust off afterward. None of my test pieces broke in the wood and I sanded just about 95 % of all the glue joints in my project. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 14, 1998
The books that i have on the subject strongly recommend that no sanding be done due to the concern of damaged fibres. The only accepted method for cleaning a joint is a planer type saw blade and a plane. However, my feeling is that the effect can be helped by the type of glue that you use. With the old style cassein glues, it may be more critical than with Aerolite or T-88. Mahogony ply also should be checked for glaze and 'lightly sanded". If you need more information on the references that I dug out, let me know. I believe that you would be risking the certification process in Canada if they knew you were sanding joints. Best regards, -=Ian=- > From: Larry L. Neal <llneal(at)earthlink.net> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc... > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 23:33 PM > > No offense Steve, but I've been told to sand, and sand each and every glued > surface to remove the purported glaze and also rough it up a bit. > It's good practice to use thinner to clean off the surface to remove sanding > dust and sap afterwards though.... > My test coupons have never broke on the glue line when doing this. > > Larry > > > Steve Eldredge wrote: > > > Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get away > > with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of someone > > doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. (or > > something) > > > > Stevee > > > > Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote: > > > > > PI>Richard, > > > > > > About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding > > > machine to be very > > > useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a > > > four inch wide > > > belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. They > > > are good for > > > cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. > > > He did not > > > have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock > > > one night, then > > > went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they > > > weren't > > > accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he had > > > a terrible > > > time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to > > > this, just keep it in > > > mind. > > > > > > John Fay > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Ted Brousseau wrote: > > >Snowboard goggles BTW are just like ski goggles as far as I can tell, > > >unless you are talking to an avid snowboarder. > > > Stevee, > > You just don't get it do you? What are ski goggles like? Remember, I > am in > Florida!!! > > Ted Brousseau/APF Whoops. Sorry Ted. Glad someone else posted a good answer, although they are a bit like snowmobile goggles :). I've been out sick for the last five days and I guess it shows. Stevee (feeling a little better). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Glenn Robb <robb(at)bbt.com>
Subject: Laminated vs. Solid Spars
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Pietenpol List: =0D In Pietenpol's Corvair/3-Piece-wing supplements, the spars are lami-=0D nated from 3/4" strips. Utilizing shorter lumber would save me $20-$25 =0D= per spar. I'd don't feel this is worth the trouble of all that scarf =0D jointing and laminating, so I'd like to use solid 3/4" stock.=0D =0D My question: are there any other reasons for laminating the spar? Lam-=0D= inations are usually superior in strength, only because they allow =0D defects to be removed from otherwise unsuitable full sized stock. =0D =0D Points of attachment are supplemented with plywood plates (1/8" each =0D side). Is it necessary to use plywood reinforcement along the entire =0D spar length, or are folks adjusting their rib plans to fit the thin-=0D ner spar?=0D =0D I see some concern over sanding wood before gluing. Plywood MUST be =0D lightly sanded before gluing. Government tests quoted in the EAA's =0D "Wood Building Techniques" book show an average 40% increase in bond-=0D ing strength for most species. Light sanding removes the crushed =0D cells from the wood surface, which form a glaze inhibiting good glue =0D penetration. It is the hot steel rollers which burnish the surface =0D during manufacture, when the plys are compressed. I have the written =0D instructions from Ciba-Geigy for their Aerolite 306 glue. I quote, =0D "Surface Preparation: Thoroughly sand the surface to be joined. =0D Ensure that all surfaces are free from dust or other deposits".=0D =0D Hope this helps=0D =0D Glenn Robb=0D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Feel free to loose your cool at anytime(place silly icon here)Comercial scarfing machines CAN be !you guessed it, jigged sanding drums,plus a 10:1 joint (MIN) allows for a large gluing surface. Any credible publication on wood joinery will likely list all the technical reasons why sanding is benifical,alot which have already been submitted to the group.Common sense should not be overlooked(RIGHT BERNIE) IN MY HONEST OPINION (dose not take all that long to type, dose it?) > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc... > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 11:36 AM > > Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get away > with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of someone > doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. (or > something) > > Stevee > > > Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote: > > > PI>Richard, > > > > About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding > > machine to be very > > useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a > > four inch wide > > belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. They > > are good for > > cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. > > He did not > > have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock > > one night, then > > went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they > > weren't > > accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he had > > a terrible > > time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to > > this, just keep it in > > mind. > > > > John Fay > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Stevee, Glad to see you are on the mend. Thanks for the reply. I guess what I want to know is whether these northern things are something I should be looking at for down here? Are they "better" than the standard a/c goggles? Ted >Whoops. > >Sorry Ted. Glad someone else posted a good answer, although they are a >bit like snowmobile goggles :). I've been out sick for the last five >days and I guess it shows. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 14, 1998
>Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get away >with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of someone >doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. (or >something) > >Stevee > > >Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote: > >> PI>Richard, >> >> About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding >> machine to be very >> useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a >> four inch wide >> belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. They >> are good for >> cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. >> He did not >> have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock >> one night, then >> went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they >> weren't >> accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he had >> a terrible >> time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to >> this, just keep it in >> mind. >> >> John Fay > > >Hey, I thought a scarf joint was made with a sanding drum on a tilting table? I know you are not supposed to sand a glue joint, but I'll have to research the scarf joint. Barry Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Barry Davis
Subject: Piet door
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Where are the pictures of Richard Decosta? I must have missed the post giving the address. Thanks in advance Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Piet door
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Hi Barry: Try http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet Barry Davis wrote: > Where are the pictures of Richard Decosta? I must have missed the post > giving the address. > > Thanks in advance > Barry Davis > bed(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PTNPOL
Subject: using j-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 14, 1998
Pietenpol discussion ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry Guyer <cigognes(at)oz.sunflower.org>
Subject: Re: Lycoming O-145
Date: Jan 14, 1998
by all means you can use the engine. Certified engines are for certified aircraft, not experimental aircraft. There is an advantage to using certified engines on x's because of the flight restrictions during the test period. If you have a certified engine you only have to put 25 hrs in the local test area. If you are using an non-certified engine they you have to fly of 40 hours prior to leaving the test area or carring passengers...big deal.. use the lycoming.... Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Piet door
Date: Jan 15, 1998
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet >Where are the pictures of Richard Decosta? I must have missed the post >giving the address. > >Thanks in advance >Barry Davis >bed(at)mindspring.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PTNPOL
Subject: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 15, 1998
Pietenpol discussion, Bill Rewey said in BPA news issue #58 " using J-3 type landing gear on a pietenpol results in the much weight on the tail wheel which causes an aft CG problem. Iam building a 1966 extended fuselage with a corvair engine and a three piece wing. I was going to use the J-3 type landing gear like bernard did back in 1966 to save time on building my project. I know that Bernard Pietenpol did have problems with this type of gear. He had them placed to far forward on his fuselage. Did Bernard Pietenpol fix the problem and find the J-3 landing gear an excellent type of gear for the pietenpol? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: flying 3x in 3days
Date: Jan 15, 1998
Well, I wear glasses and they cover them and still feel really comfortable. I will probably use them throughout the year. They don't look authentic as the leather bug eye goggles of the period, but they work great keeping out the cold and the wind. Stevee On Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:23 PM, Ted Brousseau [SMTP:nfn00979(at)naples.net] wrote: > Stevee, > > Glad to see you are on the mend. Thanks for the reply. I guess what I want > to know is whether these northern things are something I should be looking > at for down here? Are they "better" than the standard a/c goggles? > > Ted > > > >Whoops. > > > >Sorry Ted. Glad someone else posted a good answer, although they are a > >bit like snowmobile goggles :). I've been out sick for the last five > >days and I guess it shows. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: on Sanding joints
Date: Jan 15, 1998
My understanding is that fine joinery techniques, such as violin building and airplane building don't join bare sanded surfaces. You can use anything you like to remove mass material to get the right angles and shapes including an industrial sander. The point is that when you finally apply the glue to the joint you want the pores of the wood open to get the best joint you can. Granted this was more of an issue when Resorcinol and Urea Formaldehyde glues were the norm. My guess is that you will find that even if material is removed with a sander it is recommended that the joint be scrapped or planed for the final gluing. With modern epoxies where mechanical bonding is the means of attachment this is less of an issue. (I would still prep the joint the same way however) I have read that some fine woodworkers recommend freshly breaking a piece of glass with a straight edge to final scrape the piece to be joined. The new glass edge is only good for a couple of passes before needing to be broken again. I didn't go to this extreme. I used a freshly sharpened hand plane. Your joint mileage may vary....*greatly*. May your joints be strong, Stevee On Wednesday, January 14, 1998 5:13 PM, Doug Hunt [SMTP:ve6zh(at)cnnet.com] wrote: > Feel free to loose your cool at anytime(place silly icon here)Comercial > scarfing machines CAN be !you guessed it, jigged sanding drums,plus a 10:1 > joint (MIN) allows for a large gluing surface. > Any credible publication on wood joinery will likely list all the > technical reasons why sanding is benifical,alot which have already been > submitted to the group.Common sense should not be overlooked(RIGHT BERNIE) > IN MY HONEST OPINION (dose not take all that long to type, dose it?) > ---------- > > From: Steve Eldredge > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc... > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 11:36 AM > > > > Sanding joints to be glued is bad practice. On the ribs you might get > away > > with it since the gussett is carrying the load. If I ever hear of > someone > > doing it in a scarf joint however I am going to have to loose my cool. > (or > > something) > > > > Stevee > > > > > > Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote: > > > > > PI>Richard, > > > > > > About tools: I have only built ribs so far but I found a sanding > > > machine to be very > > > useful. I am referring to the type that has a 6" disk sander and a > > > four inch wide > > > belt sander. I also bought a couple of little X-acto hobby saws. > They > > > are good for > > > cutting the ribstock . Another builder told me a mistake he had made. > > > He did not > > > have a table saw, so went to a friend and cut half of all his ribstock > > > one night, then > > > went back a couple months later and they cut the rest of it. But they > > > weren't > > > accurate enough, and the second batch was just enough fatter that he > had > > > a terrible > > > time getting it into the same jig. There are a couple solutions to > > > this, just keep it in > > > mind. > > > > > > John Fay > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: RE: flying 3x in 3days -Reply
Date: Jan 15, 1998
Check out the following page for goggles: http://www.icc-comm.com/motorcycles/goggles.html They have authentic looking goggles that fit over glasses. For more pages do a web search using the word "goggles". Other news, our fuselage is complete enough to sit in. My partner and I are building a long fuselage ship. I'm 6' 200 lbs ( 200!!!! that sure is depressing in print) and the rear cockpit is surprisingly roomy. I didn't feel the least bit cramped. The instrument panel is closer to my face than expected but not a problem. The leg holes were made larger to prevent bruised shins. Greg Cardinal >>> Steve Eldredge 01/15/98 10:01am >>> Well, I wear glasses and they cover them and still feel really comfortable. I will probably use them throughout the year. They don't look authentic as the leather bug eye goggles of the period, but they work great keeping out the cold and the wind. Stevee On Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:23 PM, Ted Brousseau [SMTP:nfn00979(at)naples.net] wrote: > Stevee, > > Glad to see you are on the mend. Thanks for the reply. I guess what I want > to know is whether these northern things are something I should be looking > at for down here? Are they "better" than the standard a/c goggles? > > Ted > > > >Whoops. > > > >Sorry Ted. Glad someone else posted a good answer, although they are a > >bit like snowmobile goggles :). I've been out sick for the last five > >days and I guess it shows. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 15, 1998
I'm having a little trouble finding T-88 in Seattle. Does anyone know where I can get this stuff? Thanks, Brent Reed >With the old style cassein glues, it may be more critical than with >Aerolite or T-88. Mahogony ply also should be checked for glaze and >'lightly sanded ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 15, 1998
I just bought some from Wicks Aircraft Supply. Don't have their # off hand, tho. Anyone? > I'm having a little trouble finding T-88 in Seattle. Does anyone know where > I can get this stuff? > > Thanks, > > Brent Reed > > >With the old style cassein glues, it may be more critical than with > >Aerolite or T-88. Mahogony ply also should be checked for glaze and > >'lightly sanded > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 15, 1998
Wicks 800-221-9425 Stevee On Thursday, January 15, 1998 4:45 AM, Richard DeCosta [SMTP:rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com] wrote: > I just bought some from Wicks Aircraft Supply. Don't have their # off > hand, tho. Anyone? > > > I'm having a little trouble finding T-88 in Seattle. Does anyone know where > > I can get this stuff? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Brent Reed > > > > >With the old style cassein glues, it may be more critical than with > > >Aerolite or T-88. Mahogony ply also should be checked for glaze and > > >'lightly sanded > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 15, 1998
Wicks aircraft Number is 618 654 7447 I have been "listening" with interest to the discussion about the door plans and am wondering if there is a way to convert an already built fuselage. The wife is going thru the same issue on "how to get into the front cockpit". Can it be retrofitted with ease, with difficulty, or no way". Any comments? > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: RE: More about Tools, etc... > Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 11:55 AM > > Wicks 800-221-9425 > > Stevee > > On Thursday, January 15, 1998 4:45 AM, Richard DeCosta [SMTP:rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com] wrote: > > I just bought some from Wicks Aircraft Supply. Don't have their # off > > hand, tho. Anyone? > > > > > I'm having a little trouble finding T-88 in Seattle. Does anyone know where > > > I can get this stuff? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Brent Reed > > > > > > >With the old style cassein glues, it may be more critical than with > > > >Aerolite or T-88. Mahogony ply also should be checked for glaze and > > > >'lightly sanded > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerard \"Larry\" Huber" <NoSpamglhuber(at)mail.wiscnet.net>
Subject: Door Pictures?
Date: Jan 15, 1998
Where can I find the pictures of the door in a Piet. If you reference DeCosta's site - what is the name of the PIC - it takes time for me to download pic's. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager)
Subject: Re: Piet door
Date: Jan 15, 1998
>Where are the pictures of Richard Decosta? I must have missed the post >giving the address. > >Thanks in advance >Barry Davis >bed(at)mindspring.com > Here is Richard DeCostas web page >http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet/pics.html I not sure which ones had the door try the WY pictures. There are several in this web page. Back to the gear. I building my own and does anyone know how far to move the gear forward? I havent seen anything on it except somewher I read where they moved it I think 7 inches and the artical said it was a bit to far. duh ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hixon, Carl" <chixon(at)durapharm.com>
Subject: RE: flying 3x in 3days -Reply
Date: Jan 15, 1998
I have read all of the discussion about snowboard goggles, etc. Why not get the real thing? I don't think that they cost much more than a good pair of snowboarding goggles... Flight Suits Ltd. sells several styles of goggles, leather and canvas caps, etc. If you buy a leather bomber jacket they even give you a white silk scarf!!! Great store! I bought a nomex flight suit and leather flight boots from them. Check out their web site and get a free catalog. http://www.flightsuits.com/index.htm On Thursday, January 15, 1998 8:20 AM, Greg Cardinal [SMTP:CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com] wrote: > Check out the following page for goggles: > > http://www.icc-comm.com/motorcycles/goggles.html > > They have authentic looking goggles that fit over glasses. > For more pages do a web search using the word "goggles". > > Other news, our fuselage is complete enough to sit in. My partner and I > are building a long fuselage ship. I'm 6' 200 lbs ( 200!!!! that sure is > depressing in print) and the rear cockpit is surprisingly roomy. I didn't feel > the least bit cramped. The instrument panel is closer to my face than > expected but not a problem. The leg holes were made larger to prevent > bruised shins. > > Greg Cardinal > > >>> Steve Eldredge 01/15/98 10:01am >>> > Well, I wear glasses and they cover them and still feel really > comfortable. I will probably use them throughout the year. They don't > look authentic as the leather bug eye goggles of the period, but they work > > great keeping out the cold and the wind. > > Stevee > > On Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:23 PM, Ted Brousseau > [SMTP:nfn00979(at)naples.net] wrote: > > Stevee, > > > > Glad to see you are on the mend. Thanks for the reply. I guess what I > want > > to know is whether these northern things are something I should be > looking > > at for down here? Are they "better" than the standard a/c goggles? > > > > Ted > > > > > > >Whoops. > > > > > >Sorry Ted. Glad someone else posted a good answer, although they > are a > > >bit like snowmobile goggles :). I've been out sick for the last five > > >days and I guess it shows. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brent Reed
Subject: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 15, 1998
So how many pints, quarts, or gallons of epoxy should I need to do this project? Thanks for the phone numbers. Brent Reed Kent, WA -----Original Message----- >From: Steve Eldredge Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 8:55 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: More about Tools, etc... >Wicks 800-221-9425 > >Stevee > >On Thursday, January 15, 1998 4:45 AM, Richard DeCosta [SMTP:rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com] wrote: >> I just bought some from Wicks Aircraft Supply. Don't have their # off >> hand, tho. Anyone? >> >> > I'm having a little trouble finding T-88 in Seattle. Does anyone know where >> > I can get this stuff? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brent Reed >> > >> > >With the old style cassein glues, it may be more critical than with >> > >Aerolite or T-88. Mahogony ply also should be checked for glaze and >> > >'lightly sanded >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------- >> Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com >> Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PTNPOL
Subject: Re: Re: More about Tools, etc...
Date: Jan 15, 1998
to:Brent Reed, You asked how many quarts, pints or gallons? You should only get enough to glue whichever part of the piet your building. The t-88 does have a shelf life and will go bad. You will be able to tell when it goes bad. The clear resin will get cloudy. Sincerely, -=Ron Lebfrom=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 15, 1998
PTNPOL wrote: > > Pietenpol discussion, > > Bill Rewey said in BPA news issue #58 " using J-3 type landing gear > on a pietenpol results in the much weight on the tail wheel which causes an > aft CG problem. > > Iam building a 1966 extended fuselage with a corvair engine and > a three piece wing. I was going to use the J-3 type landing gear like > bernard did back in 1966 to save time on building my project. > I know that Bernard Pietenpol did have problems with this type of gear. > He had them placed to far forward on his fuselage. > > Did Bernard Pietenpol fix the problem and find the J-3 landing gear > an excellent type of gear for the pietenpol? > Actually Ron, I think they were placed too far aft. Not by the pick-up points on the fuse though. I know when Jack Watson and I were fixturing my gear, we placed the wheel axel forward about 8" (need to measure to be sure). You need to do some preliminary weight and balance for your particular needs. For instance where are you going to place your battery? How heavy did your construction actually come out to? Once you know this you can make your fixture to weld it up. Make sure your fuselage pivot points are in-line, this will keep the stress off the pivot when it needs to rotate. Use a 1/4 ' rod through the holes while welding to keep it in-line. Tac the complete side of the gear first before welding it complete, and move your torch to different welding spots to keep the heat from distorting the structure. Are you intending to use bungees or springs. Both Jack and I used Urethane pucks which we had made up for $30.00 per foot. We chose duro #90. I have to be honest though I haven't flown yet and the duro number may be too hard. I'll have to wait and see. Hope this helps you. Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: MOVING gear was:RE: Piet door
Date: Jan 16, 1998
> Back to the gear. I building my own and does anyone know how far to move the > gear forward? I haven't seen anything on it except somewhere I read where they > moved it I think 7 inches and the artical said it was a bit to far. duh > Rager I moved my axles forward 5 inches from the plans. I did this in order to put more weight on the tail because I installed brakes and plan on flying off of pavement most of the time. I think I have around 40# tail weight. Not sure how this compares, but I can get the tail off easily by the time I have the power lever at full. I can land 3 point solo, and haven't felt the tail come up during agressive brake tests. for what it's worth.... Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Door Pictures?
Date: Jan 16, 1998
Dear "Larry" Let me side-slip ya' a little bit here....the best picture that I have found is on page 9 of the Issue 53 - 3rd Quarter, 1996. I could fax you a copy if you reply directly to my e-mail with a good fax number. Warren Gerard "Larry" Huber wrote: > Where can I find the pictures of the door in a Piet. If you reference > DeCosta's site - what is the name of the PIC - it takes time for me to > download pic's. > > Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 16, 1998
A while ago someone referenced a piet in January's issue of SA. I went looking for it and now I'm not sure if I recieved it or not. What was the picture of on the front cover? Help! Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 16, 1998
Cover is a MG-2 Biplane. > A while ago someone referenced a piet in January's issue of SA. I went looking for it and now I'm not sure if I recieved it or not. > > What was the picture of on the front cover? > > Help! > > Stevee > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Woodbridge, Gary" <gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com>
Subject: RE: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 16, 1998
Steve and others: I did not receive mine either. I would have remembered that bipe. I called them up and they are sending another. The lady said they where getting a large number of complaints about no delivery. Gary Woodbridge Senior Systems Engineer - UMI / OKC Maule M7-235B - N723M gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com >---------- >From: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu] >Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 3:04 PM >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Sport Aviation > >A while ago someone referenced a piet in January's issue of SA. I went >looking for it and now I'm not sure if I recieved it or not. > >What was the picture of on the front cover? > >Help! > >Stevee > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 16, 1998
Thanks for the replies. I called eaa and they are sending me mine too. I did find a way to see the cover of the current issue on the net that is kind of cool.. Check out EAA's homepage and follow EAA's publications to Sport Aviation. They have the current table of context too. Just wish I could read the articles! Stevee On Friday, January 16, 1998 2:26 PM, Woodbridge, Gary [SMTP:gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com] wrote: > Steve and others: > > I did not receive mine either. I would have remembered that bipe. I > called them up and they are sending another. > The lady said they where getting a large number of complaints about no > delivery. > > Gary Woodbridge > Senior Systems Engineer - UMI / OKC > Maule M7-235B - N723M > gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com > > >---------- > >From: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu] > >Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 3:04 PM > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >Subject: Sport Aviation > > > >A while ago someone referenced a piet in January's issue of SA. I went > >looking for it and now I'm not sure if I recieved it or not. > > > >What was the picture of on the front cover? > > > >Help! > > > >Stevee > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Swanson
Subject: RE: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 16, 1998
The January cover was Jim Moss's MG-2. Ther referenced Piet was on page 126, Larry Harrison's "Poplar Piet" made from a poplar tree cut from the family farm. Al Swanson >Thanks for the replies. I called eaa and they are sending me mine too. I >did find a way to see the cover of the current issue on the net that is >kind of cool.. > >Check out EAA's homepage and follow EAA's publications to Sport Aviation. > They have the current table of context too. > >Just wish I could read the articles! > >Stevee > >On Friday, January 16, 1998 2:26 PM, Woodbridge, Gary >[SMTP:gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com] wrote: >> Steve and others: >> >> I did not receive mine either. I would have remembered that bipe. I >> called them up and they are sending another. >> The lady said they where getting a large number of complaints about no >> delivery. >> >> Gary Woodbridge >> Senior Systems Engineer - UMI / OKC >> Maule M7-235B - N723M >> gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com >> >> >---------- >> >From: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu] >> >Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 3:04 PM >> >To: Pietenpol Discussion >> >Subject: Sport Aviation >> > >> >A while ago someone referenced a piet in January's issue of SA. I went >> >looking for it and now I'm not sure if I recieved it or not. >> > >> >What was the picture of on the front cover? >> > >> >Help! >> > >> >Stevee >> > >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 16, 1998
Have not recieved my SA. Jan98 yet either! Steeve,is the 40# weight on your tail wheel in the level position?Mine is looking a little on the light side so far,will be using brakes ,so may have to build new gear legs but will wait till after the covering and all goodies are installed. Doug > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: RE: Sport Aviation > Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 4:42 PM > > Thanks for the replies. I called eaa and they are sending me mine too. I > did find a way to see the cover of the current issue on the net that is > kind of cool.. > > Check out EAA's homepage and follow EAA's publications to Sport Aviation. > They have the current table of context too. > > Just wish I could read the articles! > > Stevee > > On Friday, January 16, 1998 2:26 PM, Woodbridge, Gary > [SMTP:gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com] wrote: > > Steve and others: > > > > I did not receive mine either. I would have remembered that bipe. I > > called them up and they are sending another. > > The lady said they where getting a large number of complaints about no > > delivery. > > > > Gary Woodbridge > > Senior Systems Engineer - UMI / OKC > > Maule M7-235B - N723M > > gwoodbridge(at)datatimes.com > > > > >---------- > > >From: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu] > > >Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 3:04 PM > > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > > >Subject: Sport Aviation > > > > > >A while ago someone referenced a piet in January's issue of SA. I went > > >looking for it and now I'm not sure if I recieved it or not. > > > > > >What was the picture of on the front cover? > > > > > >Help! > > > > > >Stevee > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PTNPOL
Subject: Re: Re: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 17, 1998
DomDominic, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PTNPOL
Subject: Re: Re: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 17, 1998
Domenic, Thanks for the reply. I still have a few questions about the J-3 type gear. You said that I should do a preliminary weight and balance. Can you provide more detail about this? I thought that you did the weight and balance after you had your wings,engine, and everything else installed. I was wondering how they placed the gear without the wings and engine being built first. I think alot of people are having alot of problems with the placing of their gear. >you asked me if I was going to use springs are bungees. I am planning on using springs. I hear bungees are a pain. I saw your name in the BPA news. It looks like your well on your way to completing your project. I still have a long way to go ............ My tail section is complete and I have all the wing ribs complete. I am going start my fuselage in one week:) I am currently finishing up the remodeling of my kitchen. Thanks again for the help. I appreciate the information. Sincerely, -=Ron Lebfrom=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyer(at)clas.net
Subject: Excel glue
Date: Jan 17, 1998
Have any of you had experience with Excel glue? I have used T-88, how would it compare with it? Thanks for any help you can give. Bruce flyer(at)clas.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Sport Aviation
Date: Jan 17, 1998
Doug Hunt wrote: > Have not recieved my SA. Jan98 yet either! > Steeve,is the 40# weight on your tail wheel in the level position?Mine is > looking a little on the light side so far,will be using brakes ,so may have > to build new gear legs but will wait till after the covering and all > goodies are installed. > Doug > > ---------- Doug, Actually I think that #40 is a bit heavy. I wish that it were around #30 Duane Woolsey is about 32 and it seems right. I wouldn't worry at this point. I also have the short fuse, which will make a slight difference. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Joint prep
Date: Jan 18, 1998
There seem to be two types of material to bond in an Air Camper: solid wood (spruce, fir, etc.) and plywood (birch, mahogany, etc.) I agree with Steve that for solid wood joints the final prep of the pieces should be with a sharp tool, not sandpaper. For the plywood gussets, however, it is recommended to scuff the plywood surface just prior to bonding. I've used 220 grit on birch plywood rib gussets with Weldwood adhesive and gotten good results, including a ten year old rib built in Florida with gussets still good and tight. If you have never used a hand plane, they are great once you get used to them. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Excel glue
Date: Jan 18, 1998
flyer(at)clas.net wrote: > > Have any of you had experience with Excel glue? > I have used T-88, how would it compare with it? > Thanks for any help you can give. > Bruce > flyer(at)clas.net Bruce, Roger Mann, who has plans out for an ultralight Piet as well as several other designs, uses Excel glue and claims it works great. You can contact him at (864)972-5606. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 19, 1998
PTNPOL wrote: > > Domenic, > > Thanks for the reply. I still have a few questions about the J-3 type > gear. You said that I should do a preliminary weight and balance. Can > you provide more detail about this? I thought that you did the weight and > balance after you had your wings,engine, and everything else installed. > I was wondering how they placed the gear without the wings and engine > being built first. I think alot of people are having alot of problems with > the placing of their gear. > > >you asked me if I was going to use springs are bungees. I am planning > on using springs. I hear bungees are a pain. I saw your name in the BPA > news. It looks like your well on your way to completing your project. I > still have a long way to go ............ My tail section is complete and I > have > all the wing ribs complete. I am going start my fuselage in one week:) > I am currently finishing up the remodeling of my kitchen. > Thanks again for the help. I appreciate the information. > > Sincerely, > -=Ron Lebfrom=- Hi Ron, You are correct. you normally do the weight and balance at the end, unless you are deviating from the plans. And of course If you are going to have brakes. I think I mentioned that I may have moved mine 8" forward. Thius is incorrect I think it's more like 5". The idea of moving it forward is to keep the tail down when applying brakes. Somewhere I have made a drawing for what I did. I'll try and find it. Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 20, 1998
Hi Dom, If you can find the drawing, I also would be interested in what you did. There is a jig for making the gear in one of the issues of the BPNews that I have marked for reference. Memory says that it moved the axle 4 inches forward from the original. Let me know if you want me to find the reference. Best regards, -=Ian=- > From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: using J-3 type landing gear > Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 18:13 PM > > PTNPOL wrote: > > > > Domenic, > > > > Thanks for the reply. I still have a few questions about the J-3 type > > gear. You said that I should do a preliminary weight and balance. Can > > you provide more detail about this? I thought that you did the weight and > > balance after you had your wings,engine, and everything else installed. > > I was wondering how they placed the gear without the wings and engine > > being built first. I think alot of people are having alot of problems with > > the placing of their gear. > > > > >you asked me if I was going to use springs are bungees. I am planning > > on using springs. I hear bungees are a pain. I saw your name in the BPA > > news. It looks like your well on your way to completing your project. I > > still have a long way to go ............ My tail section is complete and I > > have > > all the wing ribs complete. I am going start my fuselage in one week:) > > I am currently finishing up the remodeling of my kitchen. > > Thanks again for the help. I appreciate the information. > > > > Sincerely, > > -=Ron Lebfrom=- > Hi Ron, You are correct. you normally do the weight and balance at the > end, unless you are deviating from the plans. And of course If you are > going to have brakes. I think I mentioned that I may have moved mine 8" > forward. Thius is incorrect I think it's more like 5". The idea of > moving it forward is to keep the tail down when applying brakes. > Somewhere I have made a drawing for what I did. I'll try and find it. > > Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: using J-3 type landing gear
Date: Jan 20, 1998
Ian Holland wrote: > > Hi Dom, If you can find the drawing, I also would be interested in what you > did. There is a jig for making the gear in one of the issues of the BPNews > that I have marked for reference. Memory says that it moved the axle 4 > inches forward from the original. Let me know if you want me to find the > reference. > Best regards, > -=Ian=- > > ---------- > > From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca> > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Subject: Re: using J-3 type landing gear > > Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 18:13 PM > > > > PTNPOL wrote: > > > > > > Domenic, > > > > > > Thanks for the reply. I still have a few questions about the J-3 > type > > > gear. You said that I should do a preliminary weight and balance. Can > > > you provide more detail about this? I thought that you did the weight > and > > > balance after you had your wings,engine, and everything else installed. > > > I was wondering how they placed the gear without the wings and engine > > > being built first. I think alot of people are having alot of problems > with > > > the placing of their gear. > > > > > > >you asked me if I was going to use springs are bungees. I am planning > > > on using springs. I hear bungees are a pain. I saw your name in the > BPA > > > news. It looks like your well on your way to completing your project. > I > > > still have a long way to go ............ My tail section is complete > and I > > > have > > > all the wing ribs complete. I am going start my fuselage in one week:) > > > I am currently finishing up the remodeling of my kitchen. > > > Thanks again for the help. I appreciate the information. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > -=Ron Lebfrom=- > > Hi Ron, You are correct. you normally do the weight and balance at the > > end, unless you are deviating from the plans. And of course If you are > > going to have brakes. I think I mentioned that I may have moved mine 8" > > forward. Thius is incorrect I think it's more like 5". The idea of > > moving it forward is to keep the tail down when applying brakes. > > Somewhere I have made a drawing for what I did. I'll try and find it. > > > > Dom. Hi Ian, I'll try and find the drawing I have. I don't think it's complete by any means though. A friend was putting it on autocad for me. He did one part , which he reproduced for me, but the other parts were lost during a hard drive failure. I'm still going to try and get him to re-do the lost parts. Perhaps I'll get some pictures taken and then send them to Richard to post on his Homepage. Regards, Dom. regar ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: MOVING gear was:RE: Piet door
Date: Jan 20, 1998
On > Rager > > I moved my axles forward 5 inches from the plans. I did this in order to > put more weight on the tail because I installed brakes and plan on flying > off of pavement most of the time. I think I have around 40# tail weight. Yes this is measured wings level, flying attitude. > Not sure how this compares, but I can get the tail off easily by the time > I have the power lever at full. I can land 3 point solo, and haven't felt > the tail come up during agressive brake tests. > > for what it's worth.... > > Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty cool. I don't know how much time I am going to have to work on it every day, so... anyone have any suggestions for keeping wood that isnt being used safe and warp/bug/damage free? Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 22, 1998
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) > Subject: Happy Day! > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue > from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol > 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, > thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty > cool. > > I don't know how much time I am going to have to work on it every > day, so... anyone have any suggestions for keeping wood that isnt > being used safe and warp/bug/damage free? > > Richard > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder >Congrats Richard! If you cut off a scrap of the wood and force dry it in your oven don't exceed 212 f and don't use the micro wave. I tried the mic and filled the kitchen with smoke! The idea is to have a sample with absolutely no absorbed moisture. Keep weighing the sample as you dry it until its weight stops changing. Record the samples weight. Then place the sample in the location you are going to store the wood. It will absorb moisture from the ambient atmosphere. Weight it again and work out the weight gain as a pecentage. This will be the moisture content of the wood in storage. It should be less than 12%. You can mount the block on a first class lever and counterbalance it to sit level. Then mark the lever position each time you weigh it and after a while you will have a scale marked out. From then on you just have to glance at it to know if your wood is safe. I have my wood and unvarnished components hanging from the floor joists of my house. I also am fortunate enough to live in a fairly dry climate. Good luck and Enjoy building! All of us dream about flying but getting there is half the fun! John Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Richard, Congratulations! Start building! You will love it. I am still in withdrawals each day because there is no longer a project in the garage to build on when I have a few spare minutes. Going flying requires at least two hours of spare time. Building on the other hand is something I can enjoy with only 10-15 min spare time. Not to worry however, I am seriously looking at another "antique" designed with the real world builder in mind --Steve Wittman's W-10 Tailwind. It seems to be the "Pietenpol" high performance airplane designs. Wonder how well they knew each other. Steve E. On Thursday, January 22, 1998 6:36 AM, Richard DeCosta [SMTP:rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com] wrote: > Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue > from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol > 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, > thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty > cool. > > I don't know how much time I am going to have to work on it every > day, so... anyone have any suggestions for keeping wood that isnt > being used safe and warp/bug/damage free? > > Richard > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Swanson
Subject: Re: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Congratulations! I, too recently received my initial supply of wood from Wick's. After inventorying and inspecting the shipment, I put all the lumber back in the crate, with the top screwed on, where it will stay covered, dry, and bug free until I need it. As I need pieces, I take it from the roof of the garage, and let it sit for a week or two in my shop in the basement until I need it. My feeling is that it will stabilize in that time to a safe working moisture level. Bernie Pietenpol lived just 100 miles south of here, so I figure if it worked for him, it should be OK for me as well. Good luck in your project. Al Swanson >Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue >from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol >'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, >thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty >cool. > >I don't know how much time I am going to have to work on it every >day, so... anyone have any suggestions for keeping wood that isnt >being used safe and warp/bug/damage free? > >Richard >---------------------------------------- >Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com >Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Survey
Date: Jan 23, 1998
I am putting together a survey on my website for people who are building, have built, or have flown a Pietenpol. I have several good questions on it so far, but are there questions any of you think should be on the survey? Heres what I have so far: Set of Plans Original 1929 Revised 1934 Grega Other Engine Ford Model-A Chevy Corvair Continental Ford Model-T Lycoming Ford V8 Franklin Kinner Velie Other Type of Fuselage Original Long Type Landing Gear Propellor Size & Material Instruments In Panel Airspeed Indicator Altimeter Compass Coolant Temperature Oil Temperature Other Guages: Type of Wheels Type of Wood Primarily Used Average Distance (ft.) T/O Landing Any others that should be on it? Once it's done, the results will be available to anyone who has a web browser. Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Plans
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Like Steve I'm nearing the end of my Piet project--need to cover my one piece wing and make a cowl/airscoop for Escort Engine. I'm currently interested in a Pober Pixie or Christavia as a next project. I'd be interested in buying plans--bargain price, of course--if you know someone who has some they'd like to get rid of. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Landing gear
Date: Jan 23, 1998
There has been a lot of discussion lately regarding landing gear position. I find that I'm still as confused as before. I would like to know where the gear should go assuming the following: 1. Long fuselage 2. Wooden landing gear 3. No brakes 4. Continental A-65 If you say "Follow the plans" then my next question is: Which plans? The 1932 plans give a different location than the 1934 plans. And the long fuselage plans don't give an axel location. Also, what are you using for a reference location from which to measure? Greg Cardinal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McNarry, John" <Mcnarry(at)assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: Jan 23, 1998
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) > Subject: Survey > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > I am putting together a survey on my website for people who are > building, have built, or have flown a Pietenpol. I have several good > questions on it so far, but are there questions any of you think > should be on the survey? Heres what I have so far: > Good Idea! > Set of Plans > Original 1929 Revised 1934 > Grega Other > Engine > Ford Model-A > Chevy Corvair > Continental > Ford Model-T > Lycoming > Ford V8 > Franklin > Kinner > Velie > Other > Type of Fuselage > Original > Long Wing: One piece: Three piece > Type Landing Gear Gross Weight: Fuel Capacity: Tank location: > Propellor Size & Material > Instruments In Panel > Airspeed Indicator > Altimeter > Compass > Coolant Temperature > Oil Temperature > Other Guages: > Type of Wheels: Brakes: Tailwheel: > Type of Wood Primarily Used > Average Distance (ft.) > T/O > Landing > > Any others that should be on it? Once it's done, the results will be > available to anyone who has a web browser. > > Richard > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Thanks Richard J Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: Survey
Date: Jan 23, 1998
On Friday, January 23, 1998 4:37 AM, Richard DeCosta [SMTP:rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com] wrote: > I am putting together a survey on my website for people who are > building, have built, or have flown a Pietenpol. I have several good > questions on it so far, but are there questions any of you think > should be on the survey? Heres what I have so far: > > Set of Plans > Original 1929 Revised 1934 > Grega Other > Engine > Ford Model-A > Chevy Corvair > Continental > Ford Model-T > Lycoming > Ford V8 > Franklin > Kinner > Velie > Other > Type of Fuselage > Original > Long > Type Landing Gear > Propellor Size & Material > Instruments In Panel > Airspeed Indicator > Altimeter > Compass > Coolant Temperature > Oil Temperature > Other Guages: > Type of Wheels > Type of Wood Primarily Used > Average Distance (ft.) > T/O > Landing > > Any others that should be on it? Once it's done, the results will be > available to anyone who has a web browser. > > Richard > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder How about these? Percent completed Date started Date completed Registration # Hours spent building Cost Primary source of materials Tools found valuable Finished weight Location of CG. How many inches back is your wing from vertical Covering material Paint type Fuel tank location/size Location/Home Field Type of Glue used General Comments Fun Quotient (rating 1 to 10) STeve E. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: RE: Survey
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Great! This is just what I need! Thanks to John McNarry for some great suggestions, too. > How about these? > > Percent completed > Date started > Date completed > Registration # > Hours spent building > Cost > Primary source of materials > Tools found valuable > Finished weight > Location of CG. > How many inches back is your wing from vertical > Covering material > Paint type > Fuel tank location/size > Location/Home Field > Type of Glue used > General Comments > Fun Quotient (rating 1 to 10) > > STeve E. > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: 3D Piet
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Also, for those of you who might be interested in the progress of my 3D Pietenpol, here is the latest rendering: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/images/3DFlotingPiet.gif Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: Jan 23, 1998
McNarry, John wrote: > > From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) > > Subject: Survey > > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > > > I am putting together a survey on my website for people who are > > building, have built, or have flown a Pietenpol. I have several good > > questions on it so far, but are there questions any of you think > > should be on the survey? Heres what I have so far: > > Good Idea! > > Set of Plans > > Original 1929 Revised 1934 > > Grega Other > > Engine > > Ford Model-A > > Chevy Corvair > > Continental > > Ford Model-T > > Lycoming > > Ford V8 > > Franklin > > Kinner > > Velie > > Other Subaru > > Type of Fuselage > > Original > Wing: One piece: Three piece Aileron Gap Seal > > Type Landing Gear > Gross Weight: > Fuel Capacity: Tank location: Tank Material & > Construction Method > Propellor Size & Material > > Instruments In Panel > > Airspeed Indicator > > Altimeter > > Compass > > Coolant Temperature > > Oil Temperature > > Other Guages: > > Type of Wheels: Brakes: Tailwheel: > > Type of Wood Primarily Used > > Average Distance (ft.) > > T/O > > Landing > > > > Any others that should be on it? Once it's done, the results will be > > available to anyone who has a web browser. > > > > Richard > > ---------------------------------------- > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > > Thanks Richard J Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Floating Pietenpol
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Hi Guys: I want to thank Richard DeCosta for his contributions of the "Amazing Floating Pietenpol" as well as the wonderful gallery of pictures. These items have, and I am sure will continue to be very helpful as well as entertaining. I bugged Grant a bit the other day for giving so much newsletter space to guys who spend years being "wanna be builders". He made a good point that many of us do not infact contribute building experiences and information to him to share thru the newsletter. Soooo......maybe we could all gang-up and give the poor bugger enough to put in the newsletter as well as here.....by the way, Grant...do you read this chat line? Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager)
Subject: Re: Plans
Date: Jan 23, 1998
>Like Steve I'm nearing the end of my Piet project--need to cover my one >piece wing and make a cowl/airscoop for Escort Engine. I'm currently >interested in a Pober Pixie or Christavia as a next project. I'd be >interested in buying plans--bargain price, of course--if you know >someone who has some they'd like to get rid of. Bill > >Hey William Tell us more about you escort engine conversion, or how about more info from you guys out there in Piet land about other power plants other than the model a,continental or corvair. Raven has a neat setup for the Geo engines (except for the price)any one ever used one? thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bobby White
Subject: Re: 3D Piet
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Richard, Thats, a neat looking 3D Piet! ....appreciate your website and the work you're putting into it. Pix like you have at your site makes great reference and idea material. Also, if anyone knows of a set of Piet plans for sale, I'd appreciate knowing. In the process of trying to decide my next building project, I've acquired plans for several types (wife says I'll be too broke to build, due to money spent on all those plans:-). So-- just to make sure she's not wrong, I'm considering ordering the Piet plans, but thought I'd check here first in case someone was needing to bail back out. I'm really enjoying the list and info therein. Bobby ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue > from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol > 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, > thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty > cool. > > Richard, You should get a dust protector for your keyboard so you don't get all that spruce sawdust down in it! Enjoy the building and thanks for all those pictures! Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Richard, How about: Doors? Cruise speed (level-no fair diving). Ted Brousseau >I am putting together a survey on my website for people who are >building, have built, or have flown a Pietenpol. I have several good >questions on it so far, but are there questions any of you think >should be on the survey? Heres what I have so far: >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 25, 1998
> You should get a dust protector for your keyboard so you don't get > all that spruce sawdust down in it! Enjoy the building and thanks > for all those pictures! Actually, my computer and keyboard are in a different room from where I'll be building. :) Thank's for the advice, though! I've got another question for the group: I have the spruce, nails, glue and most of the tools I need to complete most of the ribs, but I have yet to buy the plywood for the gussets. Wicks aircraft lists a 4'x8' piece starting at $100, and the local lumber yard at $14! There must be a major difference in quality there. Could someone tell me what to look for in the plywood I use. At Wicks they have for 3 to 7 ply, 45% and 90% and the prices are high. Do I need to bite the bullet, or can I get the $14 sheet and still be safe? Thanks all! Richard > > Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue > > from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol > > 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, > > thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty > > cool. > > > > > Richard, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Plans
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Hi, Bill, I am getting to the point where I am looking for an engine. Got any comments that you would like to share on using the Escort engine? Such as ease, support, reduction gear, power etc? I am not having much luck snagging a Continental 65 or corvair. Thanks, -=Ian=- > From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Plans > Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 12:26 PM > > Like Steve I'm nearing the end of my Piet project--need to cover my one > piece wing and make a cowl/airscoop for Escort Engine. I'm currently > interested in a Pober Pixie or Christavia as a next project. I'd be > interested in buying plans--bargain price, of course--if you know > someone who has some they'd like to get rid of. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Richard, I don't think that you want to go the route of non- certified plywood! If you have not already done so, PLEASE join the EAA. They have a whole bunch of books and articles that get to the meat of your question. Besides the safety aspect, there is the question of resale value. You will want to have available the parts/material list that went into the bird. anyone considering a future purchase will want to know that before they commit to a purchase. In Canada, we have to follow the guidelines in "Acceptable Methods, Techniques and Practices, Aircraft Inspection and repair" By Jeppeson and obtained from the local community college. EAA publications that I have found really helpful are: "Custom Built Sport Aircraft Handbook" "A Giuide to the Construction Standards for the Amateur Builder" "FireWall Forward" by Tony Bingalis "Aircraft welding" (They also do some first class videos) These are just some of the books that I have read (and reread). Part of the fun of building your own aircraft is the immense opportunity to learn. You may get away with some shortcuts, but you may also have many hours of work dissallowed at inspection time. All the best in 1998, and congradulations on making the big decision to start. -=Ian=- > From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day! > Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 2:23 AM > > > You should get a dust protector for your keyboard so you don't get > > all that spruce sawdust down in it! Enjoy the building and thanks > > for all those pictures! > > Actually, my computer and keyboard are in a different room from where > I'll be building. :) Thank's for the advice, though! > > I've got another question for the group: I have the spruce, nails, > glue and most of the tools I need to complete most of the ribs, but I > have yet to buy the plywood for the gussets. Wicks aircraft lists a > 4'x8' piece starting at $100, and the local lumber yard at $14! There > must be a major difference in quality there. Could someone tell me > what to look for in the plywood I use. At Wicks they have for 3 to 7 > ply, 45% and 90% and the prices are high. Do I need to bite the > bullet, or can I get the $14 sheet and still be safe? > > Thanks all! > > Richard > > > > Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue > > > from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol > > > 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, > > > thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty > > > cool. > > > > > > > > Richard, > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wkoucky <Wkoucky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Engines
Date: Jan 25, 1998
<< I am not having much luck snagging a Continental 65 or corvair. Thanks, -=Ian=- >> If you are looking for a Corvair I might be able to help. I found as many as I wanted for about $50 each (in Michigan). Contact me if you need to be put in touch with CORSA; the national Corvair group. William ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Plywood
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Hi Richard: Ian's comments are right on in all respects.....especially with regard to the available instructional material from EAA for $150.00 and the resale documentation. Having said that, Aircraft Spruce is in my backyard and I have had several discussions with them ...and other local builders.....the big issue on certification is very much related to insurance standards. Most suppliers buy the same high-grade Baltic Birch multiply plywood from Finland that you can get from specialty supply shops for tool & die and model makers. They then "certify" it and pay for the liability insurance in case there is a structural failure and your family accepts the business card from the friendly Products Liability lawyer at the end of the cemetery driveway. That the quality of this plywood is leagues above the $14.00 stuff is a major understatement. It is completely free of voids, knots and imperfections and is glued under up under a "heat treatment" type of process. It is certified for uniform glue spreading and veneer thickness. I can refer you to an importer out here that has some of the best "stuff" that you will ever see. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT CERTIFIED AND IS NOT INSURED. Anderson International Trading, 1171 N. Tustin Avenue, Anaheim, Calif. 92807-1736 (714) 666-8183: 1-800-454-6270 :http:///www.aitwood.com. Example: 1/8" 5 ply is $55.82 for a 61" X 61" sheet, plus a minimum $10.00 UPS shipping charge and will be cut exactly in half, with the face grain or across as per your instructions. This really is beautiful stuff. A 2" X 4" X 1/8" piece of lumberyard stuff can be broken over my bench vice by hand. I had an extremely difficult time breaking this stuff with a mallet. From my own research, this is the highest quality birch plywood available. These folks have this material from ply 1/64" up to 12 ply 15/64". ONCE AGAIN, IT IS NOT CERTIFIED. However, this is what I chose after making some in person, piece by piece comparisons, with out regard to the cost. I know that I won't be kissing my butt good-bye because a material failure here. Hope this helps. Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Plywood: Follow-up
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Hi Guys: If anyone does go to the http://www.aitwood.com site, go to the "ultra thin plywood" portion of the catalogue. This is where the good stuff is listed. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Plywood: Follow-up
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Hi Richard: Ian's comments are right-on in all respects...especially with regard to the available instructional material from EAA, and on the resale documentation issue. Having said that, Aircraft Spruce is in my backyard and I have has several discussions with them...and other local builders. The big issue on certification is very much related to legal insurance standards. Most suppliers buy the same high-grade Baltic Birch multiply plywood from Finland that you can get from specialty supply shops for tool & die, and architectural model makers. They then provide some type of "certification" and pay for the liability insurance, in case there is a structural failure and your family accepts the business card from the friendly Products Liability lawyer at the end of the cemetery driveway. That the quality of this plywood is leagues above the $14.00 stuff is a MAJOR understatement. It is completely free of voids, knots and imperfections thru and thru, and is glued up under a "heat-treatment" type of process. It is certified for uniform glue spreading and veneer thickness. I can refer you to an importer hot here that has some of the best "stuff" that you will ever see. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT CERTIFIED AND IS NOT INSURED. Anderson International Trading. 1171 N. Tustin Avenue, Anaheim, Calif. 92807-1736 (714) 666-8183: 1-800-454-6270: http://www.aitwood.com. On the catalogue web-page, go to the "ultra-thin plywood" section. This is where the good stuff is listed. Example: 1/8" 5 ply is $55.82 for a 61" X 61" sheet, plus a minimum of $10.00 UPS handling charge and will be cut exactly in half, with the face grain or across, as per your instructions. This really is beautiful stuff. A 2" X 4" X 1/8" piece of lumberyard stuff can be broken over my bench vice by hand. I had an extremely difficult breaking this stuff with a mallet. From my own research, this is the highest quality birch plywood available. These folks have this material from 3 ply 1/64" up to 12 ply 15/64". ONCE AGAIN, IT IS NOT CERTIFIED AND IS NOT INSURED. However, this is what I chose after making some in person, piece by piece comparisons, without regard to the cost. I know that I won't be kissing my butt good-bye because of a material failure here. Hope this helps. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Plywood: Follow-up
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Thanks for the great info, but, how can I know if something I want to use in my plane is certified and insurable? Does every piece of the plane need to be certified and insurable, or is there a list of things that need to be? Richard > some of the best "stuff" that you will ever see. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT > CERTIFIED AND IS NOT INSURED. ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Certification / Insurance
Date: Jan 25, 1998
I don't have a good answer for that one Richard. Each "aircraft" vendor in the homebuilt market seems to attach different legalese to their products. Some other folks won't even sell to you if you mention that the material is going in a "homebuilt airplane". It seems to me that all I can do is select the best material for each job; make each piece to impossibly high standards and keep a journal and photo album for my own education and entertainment....This is supposed to be fun!!! Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: Re: Certification / Insurance and plywood
Date: Jan 25, 1998
> I don't have a good answer for that one Richard. Each "aircraft" >vendor in the homebuilt market seems to attach different legalese to >their products. Some other folks won't even sell to you if you mention >that the material is going in a "homebuilt airplane". It seems to me >that all I can do is select the best material for each job; make each >piece to impossibly high standards and keep a journal and photo album >for my own education and entertainment....This is supposed to be fun!!! > >Warren. > How true! Would Bernard Pietenpol have gotten so caught up in the "certified aircraft" mumbo/jumbo? I think not! Good quality is what you are looking for. And since your life depends on it, better make sure it is great quality, not just good. But just because it has "papers" does not, in itself, make it better. Benard used engines out of CARS! I am sure lots of people thought he was crazy. If you want everything to be certified you better put in an aircraft engine, use aircraft wheels, etc, etc. In the end you won't REALLY have a Pietenpol! If you take this thinking a little farther, then you aren't qualified to even be working on an airplane unless you are an A&P. Better just buy a factory airplane! You don't have to have materials documented as "certified aircraft" for insurance or sale of a homebuilt but it MAY help. Good records on parts (be they genuine "aircraft" or not) is always nice but not required. Perhaps someone could supply specifics on the insurance: i.e. what insurance companies require it and exactly what do they require? Does it get lower rates? Is this only for structural components? Etc. Or was this just referring to the parts suppliers insurance if someone were to go after them for bad parts? For what it is worth, Pete Bowers recommended door skins in his Flybaby plans and noted that the plywood for the fuselage has very low stresses (grossly over built). Given the similarity of construction I would say the same applies to the Pietenpol (but have to admit I haven't analyzed it). Apparently door skins were readily available at that time. I looked seriously at luan lumberyard plywood (called underlayment) but didn't build the plane. Underlayment needs to be free of voids so at least in that regard it is what is needed for aircraft. I did some soak tests on the glue that came out ok: no delamination. I cut up some and found no voids in the core. It is only three ply so it is noticably weaker than aircraft material with 5 plies as someone noted in their testing. Another thing to watch out for on lumber yard plywood: often the outer plys are VERY thin and the inner ply is very thick. I would avoid this type. Anyone have any real data or experience with any of this? Strength of luan compared to birch? I seem to remember them being about the same but it has been a long time. Other than one person breaking some test samples, no one has given much solid information. Most of the remarks seem to be just emotional responses. Sure some material will be stronger than others, but is the extra strength needed? I would also be interested in finding a supply of thinner plywood (haven't checked out the web site given yet). Most of the lumber yard material is thicker than needed for ribs (the original question) and seems to be more suitable for the fuselage. In the end, each person must make his own determination of suitabilty for the construction materials for himself. Buying aircraft plywood does make that easier by providing consistency. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Certification / Insurance
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Hi guys: My reference had only to do with Product Liability insurance on the part of the vendor and/or manufacturer of commercially available materials. The various EAA publications regularly carry advertisements for firms that will insure homebuilt aircraft. Their requirements appear to uniformly rely on the fact that you have a "signed-off" legal aircraft. Having "certified" materials is not what is required, for either the FAA paperwork to go flying, or to get insurance. Good material and good workmanship is, for both. For an interesting comparison, view the web site, and compare the thin plywood list with any of the homebuilt catalogues. Most of the homebuilt catalogues don't even offer 5, 7 or 12 ply material. It may sound like an "emotional" opinion as to the strength...but it is certainly a real experience with real material. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: 3D Piet
Date: Jan 26, 1998
On Saturday, January 24, 1998 6:03 AM, Bobby White [SMTP:bobwhite(at)yournet.com] wrote: > Richard, > Thats, a neat looking 3D Piet! ....appreciate your website and the work > you're putting into it. Pix like you have at your site makes great > reference and idea material. > Also, if anyone knows of a set of Piet plans for sale, I'd appreciate > knowing. In the process of trying to decide my next building project, I've > acquired plans for several types (wife says I'll be too broke to build, due > to money spent on all those plans:-). So-- just to make sure she's not > wrong, I'm considering ordering the Piet plans, but thought I'd check here > first in case someone was needing to bail back out. > I'm really enjoying the list and info therein. > Bobby > ---------- Bobby, So what kind of plans to you have for sale? Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Piet Images Archive
Date: Jan 26, 1998
I finally got to the point where I couldnt stand it anymore! The Piet Image archive has been organized! You can now view over 200 images acording to catagory: wings, engines, finished birds, etc... Images in short supply are those of engines (especially Corvair installations, hint, hint), and of assembled (but not covered) wings. Submissions GREATLY appreciated! :) http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/pics.html Make sure you hit [RELOAD] when you get there! Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Pics
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Forgot to mention this in my last post. I added 45 new pictures to the archive this morning. They are pictures of the Piet being built in Limington Maine. All are hi-res digital photographs. http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/pics.html [RELOAD] when you get there! :) Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: RE: Certification / Insurance
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Thanks for the information/references. This is the kind of details I was looking for. Otherwise it is hard to tell experience & fact from opinion & speculation. Still wondering about the strength differences between 3 ply "homebuilt" material and material with more plys. The higher ply count obviously is better, but exactly how much? Guess I should get out the books and see if I can find something on this.... Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Warren D. Shoun[SMTP:wbnb(at)earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 1998 10:09 PM
Subject: Certification / Insurance
Hi guys: My reference had only to do with Product Liability insurance on the part of the vendor and/or manufacturer of commercially available materials. The various EAA publications regularly carry advertisements for firms that will insure homebuilt aircraft. Their requirements appear to uniformly rely on the fact that you have a "signed-off" legal aircraft. Having "certified" materials is not what is required, for either the FAA paperwork to go flying, or to get insurance. Good material and good workmanship is, for both. For an interesting comparison, view the web site, and compare the thin plywood list with any of the homebuilt catalogues. Most of the homebuilt catalogues don't even offer 5, 7 or 12 ply material. It may sound like an "emotional" opinion as to the strength...but it is certainly a real experience with real material. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Plywood Source. Was RE: Certification / Insurance
Date: Jan 26, 1998
I found that B+D International had the same high quality finish plywood mentioned here for about 30-35 bucks a 1/16" or 1/8" 61x61" sheet. Great service and great price. Steve Eldredge ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Plywood Source. Was RE: Certification / Insurance
Date: Jan 26, 1998
You dont happen to have a toll-free # for them anywhere? I'd rather buy plywood than long distance. :) > I found that B+D International had the same high quality finish plywood mentioned here for about 30-35 bucks a 1/16" or 1/8" 61x61" sheet. > > Great service and great price. > > Steve Eldredge > > > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Plywood Source. Was RE: Certification / Insurance
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Nevermind, I found it. For anyone else who's interested here it is: 800-222-7853 > You dont happen to have a toll-free # for them anywhere? I'd rather > buy plywood than long distance. :) > > > I found that B+D International had the same high quality finish plywood > mentioned here for about 30-35 bucks a 1/16" or 1/8" 61x61" sheet. > > > > Great service and great price. > > > > Steve Eldredge > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: More flying over weekend was RE: Floating Pietenpol
Date: Jan 26, 1998
On Friday, January 23, 1998 3:56 PM, Warren D. Shoun [SMTP:wbnb(at)earthlink.net] wrote: > Hi Guys: > I want to thank Richard DeCosta for his contributions of > the "Amazing Floating Pietenpol" as well as the wonderful > gallery of pictures. These items have, and I am sure will > continue to be very helpful as well as entertaining. > I bugged Grant a bit the other day for giving so much > newsletter space to guys who spend years being "wanna be > builders". He made a good point that many of us do not > infact contribute building experiences and information to him > to share thru the newsletter. Soooo......maybe we could all > gang-up and give the poor bugger enough to put in the > newsletter as well as here.....by the way, Grant...do you read > this chat line? Warren. Grant has been on before, but isn't a member at this time. I'd be glad to write something. What topics do you want to hear about? Not like I'm the end all expert, but glad to share... BTW I am about 8 hours into my flight testing at this point. I'll tell ya there just isn't much to it in this airplane. 3 engine instruments (tach,OP,OT) and my flight instruments to scan, once every few minutes. The rest is enjoying the view!! I've been following the flight test handbook the FAA published, and so much isn't applicable. IE; retractable gear, fuel systems, flaps, constant speed props, and on and on. This is such a simple flying machine, that once it is rigged, it is straight forward flying. I have flown all normal maneuvers upto imminent stalls, and spins. I am going to fly a few more hours before I go into a stall series. I don't intend on doing any spins. One thing that I found is that 60 degree turns are ridiculously tight. Going so slow you turn on a dime. Flying Saturday, I did my first short cross country flight from Spanish Fork to Nephi. It was about a 45 min flight to cover the 30 miles, Trucks passed with regularity. Ground speed 55mph. Any winds aloft make a real difference. I didn't intend on landing, but my bladder dictated a touch down. The trip home was about 25 min. Headwind turned to tailwind and I was actually *passing* traffic! Ground speed got up to 80mph! This is great fun. I hope to have my flight restrictions flown off by spring. I also got a new prop to try. I have been flying with a 72x74" Sensenich, I borrowed a Flotrop 72x78" to see about getting a better top speed. I'll post the results. Happy Landings, Stevee PS Weather is supposed to be above 50 degrees all week! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: B & D International
Date: Jan 26, 1998
>I found that B+D International had the same high quality finish plywood >mentioned here for about 30-35 bucks a 1/16" or 1/8" 61x61" sheet. > >Great service and great price. > I can vouch for B & D International Inc, I have used their plywood and it is very nice. Extra plys make for amazingly more strength!!! They deal in millimeters so be prepared to convert. Believe you will find knot-holes removed and plugged. Bill Sayre ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > > You should get a dust protector for your keyboard so you don't get > > all that spruce sawdust down in it! Enjoy the building and thanks > > for all those pictures! > > Actually, my computer and keyboard are in a different room from where > I'll be building. :) Thank's for the advice, though! > > I've got another question for the group: I have the spruce, nails, > glue and most of the tools I need to complete most of the ribs, but I > have yet to buy the plywood for the gussets. Wicks aircraft lists a > 4'x8' piece starting at $100, and the local lumber yard at $14! There > must be a major difference in quality there. Could someone tell me > what to look for in the plywood I use. At Wicks they have for 3 to 7 > ply, 45% and 90% and the prices are high. Do I need to bite the > bullet, or can I get the $14 sheet and still be safe? > > Thanks all! > > Richard > > > > Well, the day has finally come! I just got my capstrips, nails & glue > > > from Wicks Aircraft Supply! I have officially moved from Pietenpol > > > 'enthusiast' to Pietenpol 'BUILDER'. Whoa. I am looking at the wood, > > > thinking, "This pile of wood will actually FLY someday..." Pretty > > > cool. > > > > > > > > Richard, > Bite the bullet Richard, buy the best. The reason: Water proof glue and the filler in the $14.00 version is a cheaper grade of wood versus what should be the same type of wood as is on the outside, be it birch or mohogany. There has been some discusion in the Piet. group about sanding the plywood gussets for better adhesion (thereby getting rid of the sheen/oily film caused by the rollers during the manufacturing process), actually I don't like the idea of sanding because it breaks or cuts the fibers. A better way is to take a straight commercially available razor and scrape the surface without marking the gusset (same idea as if you were planning). However it's your choice, enjoy building. Regards, Domenic/ DCSBell(at)netcom.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Plans
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Ian Holland wrote: > > Hi, Bill, > I am getting to the point where I am looking for an engine. Got any > comments that you would like to share on using the Escort engine? Such as > ease, support, reduction gear, power etc? I am not having much luck > snagging a Continental 65 or corvair. > Thanks, -=Ian=- > > ---------- > > From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Subject: Plans > > Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 12:26 PM > > > > Like Steve I'm nearing the end of my Piet project--need to cover my one > > piece wing and make a cowl/airscoop for Escort Engine. I'm currently > > interested in a Pober Pixie or Christavia as a next project. I'd be > > interested in buying plans--bargain price, of course--if you know > > someone who has some they'd like to get rid of. Bill What's your location? I live in Toronto. I have a corvair you can have $100. It's a 140HP. You'll have to remove the heads and replace with 110HP heads. I may have a line on a set of 110HP heads for free. You'll next have to remove the camshaft and replace with a 95HP cam, Possibly available from Clark's corvair Parts, in Sheldon(?), Mass. (try searching for them on the internet. Also check if they have any rebuilt engines or if they can build one up for you to your specifications. Regards, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Plywood: Follow-up
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > Thanks for the great info, but, how can I know if something I want to > use in my plane is certified and insurable? Does every piece of the > plane need to be certified and insurable, or is there a list of > things that need to be? > > Richard > > > some of the best "stuff" that you will ever see. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT > > CERTIFIED AND IS NOT INSURED. > > ----------------------------- > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Pietenpols, Electronic Music, > Website Design, Stompilation Richard, The aircraft grade plywood has an aircraft inspector's stamp all over the sheet. Also your receipt will specify the certification. It's the retail version of the 'certificate of compliance', normally issued to the retailler by the manufacturer. Hope this is helpfull. Regards, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Plywood: Follow-up
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > Thanks for the great info, but, how can I know if something I want to > use in my plane is certified and insurable? Does every piece of the > plane need to be certified and insurable, or is there a list of > things that need to be? > > Richard > > > some of the best "stuff" that you will ever see. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT > > CERTIFIED AND IS NOT INSURED. > > ----------------------------- > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Pietenpols, Electronic Music, > Website Design, Stompilation Oh yes, One more thing I forgot to mention. There will be areas on the fuselage that require large gussets. Try to cut out a piece for these larger gussets that have the inspection stamp showing. Then you can prove to your aircraft (FAA) inspector that you did use certified material. Later, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Piet Images Archive
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > I finally got to the point where I couldnt stand it anymore! The Piet > Image archive has been organized! You can now view over 200 images > acording to catagory: wings, engines, finished birds, etc... > > Images in short supply are those of engines (especially Corvair > installations, hint, hint), and of assembled (but not covered) wings. > Submissions GREATLY appreciated! :) > > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/pics.html > Make sure you hit [RELOAD] when you get there! > > Richard > ---------------------------------------- > Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com > Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Richard, I can send you some pictures of corvair engine installation, But i'd like them returned. Send me your address. Or perhaps a friend can scan them for me. I'll let you know. Later, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Piet Images Archive
Date: Jan 26, 1998
If you send them to me, I can scan them and put them in the mail back to you the same day. I have a super high resolution scanner at work. If you'd prefer to have a friend scan them, that'd be fine, too. Thanks much! Those pictures will be most helpful, as I am using a Corvair engine in my Piet. Many thanks, Richard If you send them, use this address: Auto Europe Attn: Richard DeCosta 39 Commercial St. Portland, ME 04101 > Richard, I can send you some pictures of corvair engine installation, > But i'd like them returned. Send me your address. Or perhaps a friend > can scan them for me. I'll let you know. > Later, Domenic > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wkoucky <Wkoucky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Plans...Corvair Engines
Date: Jan 26, 1998
<< What's your location? I live in Toronto. I have a corvair you can have $100. It's a 140HP. You'll have to remove the heads and replace with 110HP heads. I may have a line on a set of 110HP heads for free. You'll next have to remove the camshaft and replace with a 95HP cam, Possibly available from Clark's corvair Parts, in Sheldon(?), Mass. (try searching for them on the internet. Also check if they have any rebuilt engines or if they can build one up for you to your specifications. Regards, Domenic >> Rt 2 Shelburne Falls, MA 01370 Corvair Underground (parts) 1-800-825-vair Po Box 339 Dundee, OR 97115 I have a set of 110 heads I am not using. Do not know what shape they are in. I suggest talking to William Wynne down in Florida if you are thinking about a Corvair. He will do any part of a project. I will post his number tomorrow. I would love to talk with anyone rebuilding or flying a Corvair. William Koucky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Re: Plans -Reply
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Ian, the Ford Escort is basically an unknown for me since I haven't flow it yet. I used the conversion kit made by Ed Lubitz, a Canadian airline pilot. It has a simple, cast iron reduction system 2.5-1. The engine conversion is mainly changes to the carb, removing emissions system, and shifting the location of the distributor. The engine is reversed with the flywheel forward. I have a full electrical system and somewhere between 70-80 h.p. I've run the engine about four hours static (mounted on plane) without prop. It doesn't idle very well but from 2000 - 5000 rpms it runs very well; this would be its normal operation range taxi/takeoff/climb. I got the components second hand so don't know if they're currently available. The engine weighs about 270 pounds. I hope to have the plane in the air by April /May first. Ed apparently flew a Piet to Oshkosh in the late 80's with this engine conversion. I've not run into anyone with this set up so have no other reports. My whole installation seems solid and I hope it will work well. Ask me in a few months. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Re: Plans -Reply
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Rick, the Ford Escort engine conversion is based upon a kit designed by Ed Lubitz, a pilot from Canada. The engine weighs 270 pounds approximately and puts out 70-80 hp, more with various cam configurations. The redrive (2.5-1) is mounted on the flywheel and block--engine is reversed for airplane. The installation has starter and full electrical system. Conversion is all external--mounting redrive, modifying carb, shifting location of distributor, removing exhaust emission controls. So far I have 4 hours static on the engine. Doesn't idle well but runs fine in 2000-5000 rpm range. Conversion manual says it takes 2000 to taxi and 4000-4200 cruise, 5000 to take off. I've had some cooling problems but have been running engine without prop--something you can do with a car engine conversion. I have high hopes for the installation but don't know how it will be for reliability or anything else. I hope to be flying it by May 1--ask for details then. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RdwdSgn <RdwdSgn(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Piet Hello?
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Just got unit back from being serviced- up and running again Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RdwdSgn <RdwdSgn(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Propellor Hubs
Date: Jan 27, 1998
________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Building Ribs
Date: Jan 27, 1998
I have read two books so far about building wooden airplanes, one from 1936 and one from 1947 (cause thats all that the Portland Public Library has! I will, as $ allows, get a couple from the EAA), and they have two different views about building wing ribs. One says to draw the rib from the plans, using measurements from the datum, etc... and the other says, if possible, build the gig right on the full-size plan from the manufacturer (or designer). How many of you build right on Bernie's full size plan and how many draw the whole thing out from the (scaled) plans? Many thanks! Richard ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Piet Images Archive
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > If you send them to me, I can scan them and put them in the mail back > to you the same day. I have a super high resolution scanner at work. > If you'd prefer to have a friend scan them, that'd be fine, too. > Thanks much! Those pictures will be most helpful, as I am using a > Corvair engine in my Piet. > > Many thanks, > Richard > > If you send them, use this address: > Auto Europe > Attn: Richard DeCosta > 39 Commercial St. > Portland, ME 04101 > > > Richard, I can send you some pictures of corvair engine installation, > > But i'd like them returned. Send me your address. Or perhaps a friend > > can scan them for me. I'll let you know. > > Later, Domenic > > > ----------------------------- > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Pietenpols, Electronic Music, > Website Design, Stompilation Ok, I'll talk to my friend and see how busy he is. otherwise I will send you the hard copy. I think you'll be impressed. Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Plans...Corvair Engines
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Wkoucky wrote: > > > << What's your location? I live in Toronto. I have a corvair you can have > $100. It's a 140HP. You'll have to remove the heads and replace with > 110HP heads. I may have a line on a set of 110HP heads for free. You'll > next have to remove the camshaft and replace with a 95HP cam, Possibly > available from Clark's corvair Parts, in Sheldon(?), Mass. (try > searching for them on the internet. Also check if they have any rebuilt > engines or if they can build one up for you to your specifications. > > Regards, Domenic >> > > Rt 2 > Shelburne Falls, MA 01370 > > Corvair Underground (parts) 1-800-825-vair > Po Box 339 > Dundee, OR 97115 > > I have a set of 110 heads I am not using. Do not know what shape they are in. > > I suggest talking to William Wynne down in Florida if you are thinking about a > Corvair. He will do any part of a project. I will post his number tomorrow. > I would love to talk with anyone rebuilding or flying a Corvair. > > William Koucky I'm just about finished my corvair version. Just finished making the cowling. Looks good. Now I have to alodine and paint it. Next I'll tackle the wind shields and last my flying struts. and that's all she wrote. Will test this spring. Later Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: Piet Images Archive
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Thanks! I can't wait to see them! > Ok, I'll talk to my friend and see how busy he is. otherwise I will send > you the hard copy. I think you'll be impressed. > Domenic > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Building Ribs
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > > I have read two books so far about building wooden airplanes, one > from 1936 and one from 1947 (cause thats all that the Portland Public > Library has! I will, as $ allows, get a couple from the EAA), and > they have two different views about building wing ribs. One says to > draw the rib from the plans, using measurements from the datum, > etc... and the other says, if possible, build the gig right on the > full-size plan from the manufacturer (or designer). > > How many of you build right on Bernie's full size plan and how many > draw the whole thing out from the (scaled) plans? > > Many thanks! > > Richard > ----------------------------- > http://www.wrld.com/w3builder > Pietenpols, Electronic Music, > Website Design, Stompilation I didn't get a full size dwg. so I scaled mine up. It wasn't difficult at all. There were one or two mistakes in the dwg. that will be quite evident when you draw to full scale. You can blend it in correctly with no problem. Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Building Ribs
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: > I have read two books so far about building wooden airplanes, one > from 1936 and one from 1947 (cause thats all that the Portland Public > Library has! I will, as $ allows, get a couple from the EAA), and > they have two different views about building wing ribs. One says to > draw the rib from the plans, using measurements from the datum, > etc... and the other says, if possible, build the gig right on the > full-size plan from the manufacturer (or designer). > > How many of you build right on Bernie's full size plan and how many > draw the whole thing out from the (scaled) plans? > > Many thanks! > > Richard > -------- I built mine from the plans measurements plotted on to a piece of particle board. Plot the points using a flexible straight edge; loft the points using cheap wood of the same demensions as the rib members (1/2x1/4") nail rib members into place. Nail guide blocks surrounding the rib mockup. remove and discard mockup pieces. hot wax the jig. drill holes for clamps and holes at rib member intersections so you can tap the rib out of the jig after nailing one side. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Building Ribs
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Dear Richard: I would suggest that you at least take 3 measurements on the full-size rib from the plans and see if they are close enough for you as to matching tolerances. On my copy at least, I decided to go ahead and do a full measurement layout. For grins and giggles, I took this to one of the old time mentors at Flabob airport, known far and wide for his expertise. At first he just laughed and suggested, tongue in cheek, that at these burning speeds of 70 mph I should be so picky, picky, picky??? Well, I decided to be picky, picky, picky anyway, and I do feel better, and that's the truth. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bobby White
Subject: Re: 3D Piet
Date: Jan 27, 1998
> > So what kind of plans to you have for sale? > > Stevee I think I'll sell my KR2S, and RV4 plans at the moment because I want either something that either has folding wings, or will land slow enough to operate out of my (kinda short) field. I'm holding on to a set of Sonerai 2LS plans for now, but may let them go. I'm keeping a set of Cougar (which is kind of a Tailwind wannabe with folding [sort of] wings), and a set of Raven (weld-it-up-yourself) Kitfox look-a-like. The Pietenpol keeps calling to me when I really ask myself what the most honest, practical, and nastalgic fun airplane might be. The Piet certainly has the largest following of knowledgeable people. Isn't it funny how the mind operates? I don't have time to stop and fix myself a glass of tea, but I'm all excited about building my very own airplane:-) Bobby ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Graham Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Back on line.
Date: Jan 27, 1998
After a hiatus of nearly three months, I am connected to E-mail. once more. My old E-mail address was grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca and it is decommissioned. Please resubscribe me into the Pietenpol Discussion Group. Thanks. Graham J. Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Building Ribs
Date: Jan 28, 1998
Richard- I built a rib jig then before gluing any thing together stretched out a length of Saran wrap over the whole thing. It keeps your jig clean and the ribs come out very easily. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Building Ribs
Date: Jan 28, 1998
Hi Mike: I appreciate your comments. From the pictures, your project is one of the highest quality work products to be seen. Please keep your details and pointers coming. Thanks. Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day!
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Richard DeCosta wrote: . Do I need to bite the > bullet, or can I get the $14 sheet and still be safe? > >Richard, The only plywood I have seen at the lumberyard for $14/sheet is 1/8" luan or doorskin. You definitely do not want to use this in your airplane. It is mostly endgrain material in the middle with a thin skin on both sides. Not strong enough for aircraft use. I built a kayak with it and the skins actually pulled off of the endgrain material! Bite the bullet and get the good stuff, you will have much peace of mind and find it easier to work with. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: Certification / Insurance and plywood
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Jim Skinner wrote: > > > For what it is worth, Pete Bowers recommended door skins in his Flybaby > plans and noted that the plywood for the fuselage has very low stresses > (grossly over built). Jim, I sent Richard a reply to his question on the $14/sheet plywood and advised him to stay away from it based on my experience using it in a kayak. In a stressed area the skins pulled off the endgrain, and this was just during the building process! As you mention, this stuff is called both luan and doorskin, which has a thick core of endgrain material with two thin face sheets. I don't think this is the same material as Pete Bowers "doorskin", which was probably a European grade of thin plywood. Play it safe, get the aircraft grade stuff, you won't be sorry. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: More flying over weekend was RE: Floating Pietenpol
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Steve Eldredge wrote: > > I have flown all normal maneuvers upto imminent stalls, > and spins. I am going to fly a few more hours before I go into a stall > series. I don't intend on doing any spins. Steve, Sounds like you are having a real blast up there! I am real interested in hearing how your stall tests come out. Are you planning on borrowing a chute for your stall series? Maybe I sound like a protective mother, but you never know with stall tests. Besides, the chat group needs their mentor and providor! Safe Flying! Mike List P.S. Lockheed is going to be sending us up there for two weeks at a time, so maybe I can catch up with you in Provo on the weekends! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Vinegar
Date: Jan 29, 1998
A few months back a wise Pietenpol builder on this list (and I forget exactly who it was now) mentioned that white vinegar on a rag will remove T-88 from your hands. It sure does. Ah, the smell of vinegar on your hands in the morning. MC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: More flying over weekend was RE: Floating Pietenpol
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Mike, I been doing lots of stalls with my piet. Nothing real severe. I've let one wing drop to maybe 1/4 turn spin and chickened out. I think it is really important to do lots of stalls and slow flight so we know what to expect in an emergency situation plus it's fun. The plane flys straight hands off, but my Rt wing has a tendancy to drop first. I have no clue why. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Glenn Robb <robb(at)bbt.com>
Subject: Broadhead '98 Lodging
Date: Jan 29, 1998
I'm looking for lodging recommendations for Broadhead `98. Our group will probably drive, so anything within 10-20 miles is useful. Please reply directly to me (robb(at)bbt.com), and I'll send out a sum- mary of the responses. Thanks in advance, Glenn Robb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikek(at)intex.net (Michael King)
Subject: DFW Piet owners
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Hello group from Dallas. I am in the process of buying a Piet located in South Texas and bringing it back to Dallas. I recently joing the Piet group and association and would like to meet and talk to local (Dallas-Ft. Worth) area Piet owners, builders, and pilots. I would like to gain more light and knowledge of this great airplane. Thanks in advance. Mike King Dallas, Texas (214) 905-9299 mikek(at)intex.net -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ring: 214.905.9299 fax: 214.905-1438 zap: mikek(at)intex.net web site: www.comedy-wire.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu>
Subject: Control pressure
Date: Jan 29, 1998
After hooking up the elevators on my Piet, I'm concerned about the amount of pressure it takes to move the stick. Steve or others, how much pressure does it take to move the stick back and forth in your plane? Do the control surfaces move easier in the air? As I sit in my plane I need a fist on the stick and a pretty good pull to move them. Comments???? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Control pressure
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Hmm, this is not a balanced elevator but I didn't really notice any major pressure but some efforrt is required. Is there any binding of the cables or control surfaces? any stuck pulleys? You will finds the elevator to be very light and sensitive in the air. The ailerons are slow and not very responsive. Has anybody added gap seals to the ailerons? ~ktm William Conway wrote: > > After hooking up the elevators on my Piet, I'm concerned about the > amount of pressure it takes to move the stick. Steve or others, how > much pressure does it take to move the stick back and forth in your > plane? Do the control surfaces move easier in the air? As I sit in > my > plane I need a fist on the stick and a pretty good pull to move them. > Comments???? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: Control pressure
Date: Jan 29, 1998
I have noticed the same thing in the air as Kevin. On the ground, moving the elevator requires just enought to lift the weight of the elevators. Check for binding, but it is a bit heavy. I also put a pully on the back of the rear cockpit seat to negotiate the bend to the top of the walking bar. Aileron forces on the ground on my ship are heavy. I imagine that I have some binding due to the rear position of the wing. I would say though that my ailerons are very responsive, but I have a full length piano hinge, therefore no gap. (Not implying that my roll rate is particularly swift, just that I get wing movement with each input of the stick.) Stevee On Thursday, January 29, 1998 2:11 PM, Kevin McDonald [SMTP:kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com] wrote: > Hmm, > this is not a balanced elevator but I didn't really notice any > major pressure but some efforrt is required. > Is there any binding of the cables or control surfaces? > any stuck pulleys? > You will finds the elevator to be very light and sensitive in the air. > The ailerons are slow and not very responsive. > Has anybody added gap seals to the ailerons? > ~ktm > > William Conway wrote: > > > > After hooking up the elevators on my Piet, I'm concerned about the > > amount of pressure it takes to move the stick. Steve or others, how > > much pressure does it take to move the stick back and forth in your > > plane? Do the control surfaces move easier in the air? As I sit in > > my > > plane I need a fist on the stick and a pretty good pull to move them. > > Comments???? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Control pressure
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Bill, My alerons are fairly stiff, but the elevator is very light. In fact I had a hardtime adj to the lighter control pressure the first time I flew the plane. Maybe you have something rubbing. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <ken.beanlands(at)west.gecems.com>
Subject: Re: Control pressure
Date: Jan 29, 1998
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, clawler wrote: > Bill, > > My alerons are fairly stiff, but the elevator is very light. In fact I > had a hardtime adj to the lighter control pressure the first time I flew > the plane. Maybe you have something rubbing. > > Craig > I've had a simular experience in a friends Christavia, heavy ailerons/light elevator. He solved the problem by adding aileron spades to the top and bottom of the aileron control horn. By adjusting the size of the spades, he was able to nicely balance up the control forces. There was no noticable difference in cruise. Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Back on line.
Date: Jan 29, 1998
Graham Hansen wrote: > After a hiatus of nearly three months, I am connected to E-mail. > once more. > > My old E-mail address was > > grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca > > and it is decommissioned. > > Please resubscribe me into the Pietenpol Discussion Group. > > Thanks. > > Graham J. Hansen Welcome back, Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: More flying over weekend was RE: Floating Pietenpol
Date: Jan 29, 1998
michael list wrote: > Steve Eldredge wrote: > > > > I have flown all normal maneuvers upto imminent stalls, > > and spins. I am going to fly a few more hours before I go into a > stall > > series. I don't intend on doing any spins. > Steve, > Sounds like you are having a real blast up there! I am real > interested > in hearing how your stall tests come out. Are you planning on > borrowing > a chute for your stall series? Maybe I sound like a protective > mother, > but you never know with stall tests. Besides, the chat group needs > their mentor and providor! > Safe Flying! > Mike List > > P.S. Lockheed is going to be sending us up there for two weeks at a > time, so maybe I can catch up with you in Provo on the weekends! Mike, Let me know when you are comming! I'd be glad to have you for an afternoon and dinner to chat. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Hunt <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com>
Subject: Re: Back on line.
Date: Jan 29, 1998
> From: Graham Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Back on line. > Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 11:17 PM > > After a hiatus of nearly three months, I am connected to E-mail. > once more. > > My old E-mail address was > > grhans(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca > > and it is decommissioned. > > Please resubscribe me into the Pietenpol Discussion Group. > > Thanks. > > Graham J. Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Wright <jgw(at)skynet.be>
Subject: Model A Radiator options
Date: Jan 30, 1998
Does anyone have any information regarding placing the radiator on a Model A - Air Camper under the motor as opposed directly in front of the cockpit? This has been another reason I've been leaning towards an air-cooled version as I tend to like to see in front! I tought I'd seen something about this before. Has anyone built one like this, and are there cooling problems? Jim Wright jgw(at)skynet.be ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Jan 30, 1998
You can do it that way but you must have a header tank up high somewhere so steam bubbles in the head have somewhere to go. Possibly you could build a header tank into the center section leading edge. I had also thought about mounting a rad flat in the center section with appropriate scoops and/or ducts, and putting the gas tank in the nose (which would mean moving the model A's carb down below the engine). johnk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed0248(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Jan 30, 1998
Have you looked in the 1933 Flying Manual from EAA? In an article on the Gere Sport, page 18, they describe installing a radiator beneath the Chevy engine, complete with photos of the installation with a header tank. Might be interesting. (new Guy), Ed Woerle ________________________________________________________________________________
From: clawler <clawler(at)Ptd.Net>
Subject: Re: Control pressure
Date: Jan 30, 1998
Ken, I not sure spades fit in with bernie's philosphy. Guess I'll continue to use lots of rudder instead:) Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: FW: Piet Chat
Date: Jan 30, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Ed0248(at)aol.com [SMTP:Ed0248(at)aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 30, 1998 7:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet Chat Thanks for the quick response...as for the intro, I am Ed Woerle, a 50-something Senior Aircraft Mechanic for FedEx. Also have IA ticket, and am multi-engine land rated. I own a T-41A and Cessna 150. My fly-buddy is a FedEx Captain, he has a private strip where we keep my aircraft, as well as his Twin Commanche, L4, Cessna 120 and Cessna 140. His current project is an RV8 (will be one of the first kit-builts to fly). I am lusting for a Sky Scout, and plan to keep everybody up nights trying to answer my questions. I can be contacted at either of the following: EdWoerle(at)AOL.com Ed0248(at)AOL.com Since I plan to start with the empennage first, I have several questions regarding it, to wit: 1. Mr. Hoopmans' plans show the leading edge routed 1/2 inch for the rib, the "center beam", what I would call the spar, is 3/4 inch thick, and the "main beam" is 5/8 inch. These don't add up for a flat plate as described by Mr. Pietenpol in the Air Camper instructions. Where am I misreading this? 2. Are the plywood gussets inset into the leading and trailing edges and end pieces, or are they glued on top? 3. The plans don't show where the flying wires attach to the stabilizer. As I read the plan, where they are supposed to attach the attach point is below the surface of the stab. Do we glue a spacer on the t/e and the spar to bring them up to grade? Finally, I can't say enough for the guys at Replicraft. I asked for two different catalogs, and asked them to bill me for the postage, which is high. They came almost immediately, by first class mail, and I was told that they feel it is important they keep the loyalty and interest of us by treating us so well. I know where I'm going to buy some of my stuff! I know, I'm LOOOOOOONG winded. Bye Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Jan 30, 1998
Hi Jim: You might want to get a copy of the 1933 Flying Manual from the EAA Aviation Foundation Library. I think the cost is about $6.00. In addition to a lot of info on the Piet, there is a great article on the Gere Sport Biplane, which mounted a Model A Ford, with the radiator under the engine. From page 4-18 are several detailed drawings, photos and descriptions. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options -Reply
Date: Jan 30, 1998
Orrin Hoopman sells plans for an underslung radiator. They are more accurately "informational drawings" than plans. Included with the underslung radiator are drawings for a steerable tail skid and a Velie engine mount. His address is: Orrin Hoopman 800 SW 17th St. Austin, MN 55912 >>> "Warren D. Shoun" 01/30/98 10:29am >>> Hi Jim: You might want to get a copy of the 1933 Flying Manual from the EAA Aviation Foundation Library. I think the cost is about $6.00. In addition to a lot of info on the Piet, there is a great article on the Gere Sport Biplane, which mounted a Model A Ford, with the radiator under the engine. From page 4-18 are several detailed drawings, photos and descriptions. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Domenico Bellissimo <DCSBell(at)netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Jan 30, 1998
John Kahn wrote: > > You can do it that way but you must have a header tank up high somewhere > so steam bubbles in the head have somewhere to go. Possibly you could > build a header tank into the center section leading edge. > > I had also thought about mounting a rad flat in the center section with > appropriate scoops and/or ducts, and putting the gas tank in the nose (which > would mean moving the model A's carb down below the engine). > > johnk Hi John, Are you coming to the meeting on Monday? Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager)
Subject: Re: Certification / Insurance and plywood
Date: Jan 30, 1998
>> I don't have a good answer for that one Richard. Each "aircraft" >>vendor in the homebuilt market seems to attach different legalese to >>their products. Some other folks won't even sell to you if you mention >>that the material is going in a "homebuilt airplane". It seems to me >>that all I can do is select the best material for each job; make each >>piece to impossibly high standards and keep a journal and photo album >>for my own education and entertainment....This is supposed to be fun!!! >> >>Warren. >> >How true! Would Bernard Pietenpol have gotten so caught up in the >"certified aircraft" mumbo/jumbo? I think not! Good quality is what you >are looking for. And since your life depends on it, better make sure it is >great quality, not just good. But just because it has "papers" does not, in >itself, make it better. Benard used engines out of CARS! I am sure lots of >people thought he was crazy. If you want everything to be certified you >better put in an aircraft engine, use aircraft wheels, etc, etc. In the end >you won't REALLY have a Pietenpol! If you take this thinking a little >farther, then you aren't qualified to even be working on an airplane unless >you are an A&P. Better just buy a factory airplane! > >You don't have to have materials documented as "certified aircraft" for >insurance or sale of a homebuilt but it MAY help. Good records on parts (be >they genuine "aircraft" or not) is always nice but not required. Perhaps >someone could supply specifics on the insurance: i.e. what insurance >companies require it and exactly what do they require? Does it get lower >rates? Is this only for structural components? Etc. Or was this just >referring to the parts suppliers insurance if someone were to go after them >for bad parts? > >For what it is worth, Pete Bowers recommended door skins in his Flybaby >plans and noted that the plywood for the fuselage has very low stresses >(grossly over built). Given the similarity of construction I would say the >same applies to the Pietenpol (but have to admit I haven't analyzed it). >Apparently door skins were readily available at that time. I looked >seriously at luan lumberyard plywood (called underlayment) but didn't build >the plane. Underlayment needs to be free of voids so at least in that >regard it is what is needed for aircraft. I did some soak tests on the glue >that came out ok: no delamination. I cut up some and found no voids in the >core. It is only three ply so it is noticably weaker than aircraft material >with 5 plies as someone noted in their testing. Another thing to watch out >for on lumber yard plywood: often the outer plys are VERY thin and the >inner ply is very thick. I would avoid this type. Anyone have any real >data or experience with any of this? Strength of luan compared to birch? I >seem to remember them being about the same but it has been a long time. >Other than one person breaking some test samples, no one has given much >solid information. Most of the remarks seem to be just emotional responses. > >Sure some material will be stronger than others, but is the extra strength >needed? I would also be interested in finding a supply of thinner plywood >(haven't checked out the web site given yet). Most of the lumber yard >material is thicker than needed for ribs (the original question) and seems >to be more suitable for the fuselage. > >In the end, each person must make his own determination of suitabilty for >the construction materials for himself. Buying aircraft plywood does make >that easier by providing consistency. > >Jim > >Right on Jim, was trying to come up with a diplomatic to say it. Agree with you 100%. Also wanted to thank you guys for all the neat engine info. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed0248(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Certification / Insurance and plywood
Date: Feb 01, 1998
Regarding plywood, has anyone checked into Hobby Shop birch plywood? Here in the Memphis area at least two of the local "Building Supply" houses have sheets of modeling plywood up to 3/32" in sheets up to 2'x4". Sure looks interesting for gussets, etc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Graham Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Latex fabric finishing information.
Date: Feb 01, 1998
I recall considerable discussion several months ago regarding the use of latex paints on fabric and cannot remember who was experimenting with this method. Also, I was off-line for about three months and have lost any info. I had stored-- except for some hard copy I made but cannot find in the chaos resulting from the moving process. Some day I will be recovering my Pietenpol and would appreciate any and all information I can get on the latex system. Thanks. Graham Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: 35 Pictures added
Date: Feb 02, 1998
I visited Everett Millet in Windham, ME yesterday and got a good look at the Pietenpol he is building. He is the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet! He let me poke around his workshop with my digital camera for over an hour and a half, showed me his new hangar, and explained a lot of the construction process. I brought back 35 pictures which I have added to my website, under the section called "Everett Millett's Piet". Enjoy! I sure did! http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet/ Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge
Subject: RE: Latex fabric finishing information.
Date: Feb 02, 1998
Graham, Stevee here. I painted with laytex. I have unfortunatly had my plane out in the weather all winter long since it went to the airport in October. I have to say that I am very satisfied so far. Even under snow and ice it is still doing fine. I even crack the ice of on good days and go flying. No problems so far. Not a rubbed glossy finish by any strech, but it fits the era of the airplane wonderfully. I'll tell ya this is one fun plane. I have people trying to "catch" me while I out on Saturdays to talk about the "Air Camper" on the ramp. Dad's and their sons have come out of the wood work because they see that it might be something they could tackle. It's great to share the dream with them. I just wish that I had enough hours flown off to give rides. I even get looks and waves from Bonanza and Commanche drivers, (secretly wishing they were flying like barnstormers instead of cross country commuters.) The most fun though are the rough leathered of pilots of ye ster-year. I've met a couple of sage old guys who have long since hung up their pilot wings. They see me pull up to the fuel depot and they get a glint in their eye. What ever they were doing or whatever they were talking about gets put on hold as they saunter over and say something like, "That looks like a Pietenpol. I remember when...." On Sunday, February 01, 1998 9:12 PM, Graham Hansen [SMTP:grhans@cable-lynx.net] wrote: > I recall considerable discussion several months ago regarding the use of > latex > paints on fabric and cannot remember who was experimenting with this > method. > Also, I was off-line for about three months and have lost any info. I had > stored-- > except for some hard copy I made but cannot find in the chaos resulting > from > the moving process. > Some day I will be recovering my Pietenpol and would appreciate any and all > information I can get on the latex system. Thanks. > > Graham Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Door
Date: Feb 02, 1998
BTW, to whomever asked about the passenger door, among the new images are some good pics of a passengere door. Go to http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet/ Image Collection, and they are under Everett Millett's Piet, called EM-psgrDoor1.jpg, EM-psgrDoor2.jpg and EM-psgrDoor3.jpg. Richard Web Developer, http://www.autoeurope.com Homepage: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Latex fabric finishing information.
Date: Feb 02, 1998
> Great stories Stevee!!! Thanks for sharing them with us. Keeps me going. Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
Subject: RE: Latex fabric finishing information.
Date: Feb 02, 1998
Do tell more. I am interested in hearing the whole story of the process you used using latex. Iv'e heard of people using it but never any details. Sound like it would be a little cheaper than poly-brush and the family of polys. jas >Graham, > >Stevee here. I painted with laytex. I have unfortunatly had my plane out >in the weather all winter long since it went to the airport in October. I >have to say that I am very satisfied so far. Even under snow and ice it is >still doing fine. I even crack the ice of on good days and go flying. No >problems so far. Not a rubbed glossy finish by any strech, but it fits the >era of the airplane wonderfully. > >I'll tell ya this is one fun plane. I have people trying to "catch" me >while I out on Saturdays to talk about the "Air Camper" on the ramp. >Dad's and their sons have come out of the wood work because they see that >it might be something they could tackle. It's great to share the dream >with them. I just wish that I had enough hours flown off to give rides. I >even get looks and waves from Bonanza and Commanche drivers, (secretly >wishing they were flying like barnstormers instead of cross country >commuters.) The most fun though are the rough leathered of pilots of ye >ster-year. I've met a couple of sage old guys who have long since hung up >their pilot wings. They see me pull up to the fuel depot and they get a >glint in their eye. What ever they were doing or whatever they were >talking about gets put on hold as they saunter over and say something like, >"That looks like a Pietenpol. I remember when...." > > >On Sunday, February 01, 1998 9:12 PM, Graham Hansen >[SMTP:grhans@cable-lynx.net] wrote: >> I recall considerable discussion several months ago regarding the use of >> latex >> paints on fabric and cannot remember who was experimenting with this >> method. >> Also, I was off-line for about three months and have lost any info. I had >> stored-- >> except for some hard copy I made but cannot find in the chaos resulting >> from >> the moving process. >> Some day I will be recovering my Pietenpol and would appreciate any and >all >> information I can get on the latex system. Thanks. >> >> Graham Hansen > > jimsury(at)fbtc.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Vinegar
Date: Feb 02, 1998
Mike, It may have been me that pointed out one of the many uses of vinegar. I would like to add that I think I have an allergy to epoxy now. I have used it for years in boating and believe that it can build up a reaction on the skin, until one day things start happening. The skin on my fingers near the nails (most sensitive) will now turn red and start peeling if I get epoxy (or other harsh chemicals) on them. I use latex gloves now and save the vinegar for the tools and brushes. Just wanted to save someone else from finding this out a few years down the line. Ted Brousseau Naples, FL P.S. How's your mom? How's your bird? Hope to meet you some day. >A few months back a wise Pietenpol builder on this list (and I >forget exactly who it was now) mentioned that white vinegar >on a rag will remove T-88 from your hands. It sure does. >Ah, the smell of vinegar on your hands in the morning. MC > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Feb 02, 1998
Jim, I have news for you. I have a Continental A65/75 and I can't see in front of me!! Especially with a passenger, but still flies with the nose high enough to not be able to see well without one. Ted Brousseau, Naples, FL >Does anyone have any information regarding placing the radiator on a Model >A - Air Camper under the motor as opposed directly in front of the cockpit? > >This has been another reason I've been leaning towards an air-cooled version >as I tend to like to see in front! I tought I'd seen something about this >before. Has anyone built one like this, and are there cooling problems? > >Jim Wright >jgw(at)skynet.be > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Wright <jgw(at)skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Feb 03, 1998
Ted, Thanks for the Continental info. Right after I sent this out I received my newsletter. In the back Grant has a quote about the fact that the "guy talking about the radiator blocking his view and blowing heat in the cockpit has never actually flown an A-powered Piet!" Unfortunately he's right in my case!! Can't seem to find one over here in Europe yet to get a ride...Oh well... I'll just have to plan my vacation one year to coincide with Brodhead! For what it's worth though, he's got me re-considering "dusting off" one Henry's best! Hard to beat the sound of a Model-A Ford! Hope the Belgian authorities agree. Jim Wright jgw(at)skynet.be -----Original Message----- From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 05:03 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Radiator options >Jim, > >I have news for you. I have a Continental A65/75 and I can't see in front >of me!! Especially with a passenger, but still flies with the nose high >enough to not be able to see well without one. > >Ted Brousseau, >Naples, FL > >>Does anyone have any information regarding placing the radiator on a Model >>A - Air Camper under the motor as opposed directly in front of the cockpit? >> >>This has been another reason I've been leaning towards an air-cooled version >>as I tend to like to see in front! I tought I'd seen something about this >>before. Has anyone built one like this, and are there cooling problems? >> >>Jim Wright >>jgw(at)skynet.be >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Graham Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Latex fabric finishing information.
Date: Feb 03, 1998
Steve, When it is possible to do so, could you remember the procedure you used on your covering... including precautions necessary to avoid messing up the job? I'm sure there are others in the group who would also appreciate such information. Traditional dopes and such are becoming frightfully expensive and, let's face it, they are not very healthy materials to be working with. Latex, on the other hand, is a benign substance by comparison and should be less expensive. As you pointed out, a high gloss finish is not necessary on an air- plane like a Pietenpol. Even a traditional doped finish does not have that "wet look" unless it is made up of many coats, hand-rubbed and waxed. And that much dope will likely cause distortion of a light structure through shrinkage of the cover. I think you are onto something, Steve. > From: Steve Eldredge > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: RE: Latex fabric finishing information. > Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 7:46 AM > > Graham, > > Stevee here. I painted with laytex. I have unfortunatly had my plane out > in the weather all winter long since it went to the airport in October. I > have to say that I am very satisfied so far. Even under snow and ice it is > still doing fine. I even crack the ice of on good days and go flying. No > problems so far. Not a rubbed glossy finish by any strech, but it fits the > era of the airplane wonderfully. Sounds interesting. Tell us more. Especially about UV protection. > I'll tell ya this is one fun plane. I have people trying to "catch" me > while I out on Saturdays to talk about the "Air Camper" on the ramp. > Dad's and their sons have come out of the wood work because they see that > it might be something they could tackle. It's great to share the dream > with them. I just wish that I had enough hours flown off to give rides. I > even get looks and waves from Bonanza and Commanche drivers, (secretly > wishing they were flying like barnstormers instead of cross country > commuters.) The most fun though are the rough leathered of pilots of ye > ster-year. I've met a couple of sage old guys who have long since hung up > their pilot wings. They see me pull up to the fuel depot and they get a > glint in their eye. What ever they were doing or whatever they were > talking about gets put on hold as they saunter over and say something like, > "That looks like a Pietenpol. I remember when...." > Yep. I've been flying mine since 1970 and it is a great little sportplane. Darned good skiplane too, although it should have a canopy and heater for that sort of thing. Many thanks for the information. More! More! Graham > On Sunday, February 01, 1998 9:12 PM, Graham Hansen > [SMTP:grhans@cable-lynx.net] wrote: > > I recall considerable discussion several months ago regarding the use of > > latex > > paints on fabric and cannot remember who was experimenting with this > > method. > > Also, I was off-line for about three months and have lost any info. I had > > stored-- > > except for some hard copy I made but cannot find in the chaos resulting > > from > > the moving process. > > Some day I will be recovering my Pietenpol and would appreciate any and > all > > information I can get on the latex system. Thanks. > > > > Graham Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Skinner <jskinner(at)hurstmfg.com>
Subject: RE: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day!
Date: Feb 03, 1998
Mike, I have a question about "endgrain material." Do you mean that the grain is perpendicular to the sheet? This seems like a very strange way to make a plywood lamination. Seems like there would be a lot less waste using the standard method of peeling a log into a sheet, resulting in the more normal plys. If the grain is perpendicular to the sheet, then by all means, this is not suitable because the sheet is VERY weak. Only the thin outer layers will support tension and then only in one direction (with the grain). I will look more closely the next time I find a sheet of plywood with a thick core. I have luan lumberyard material that has 3 equal thickness plys and is of "conventional" construction; i.e. all the layers have the grain running parallel to the face with the inner ply turned 90 degrees. It has been good to see more discussion of WHY certian things are bad and what to look for. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list[SMTP:mclist(at)ptw.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Plywood Gusset Question WAS RE: Happy Day!
Richard DeCosta wrote: . Do I need to bite the > bullet, or can I get the $14 sheet and still be safe? > >Richard, The only plywood I have seen at the lumberyard for $14/sheet is 1/8" luan or doorskin. You definitely do not want to use this in your airplane. It is mostly endgrain material in the middle with a thin skin on both sides. Not strong enough for aircraft use. I built a kayak with it and the skins actually pulled off of the endgrain material! Bite the bullet and get the good stuff, you will have much peace of mind and find it easier to work with. Mike List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rrager(at)idir.net (Rick Rager)
Subject: wheels
Date: Feb 03, 1998
Hi guys: I've just finished the legs of my landing gear ready to fabricate the axles. But before I weld the 1 1/2" axles in place I thought I should probably get the wheels first just to make sure that they needed that size of axle. I think that I will use 6" wheels. Wow are the wheel and brake setups in Wicks and Aircraft Spruce high or what? Will have more in wheel and tires than airframe. Any of you guys have any other ideas. Tried to fine used 172 wheels but they are getting scarce. Also the information and ideas on this chat line thing are really great. Thanks alot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
Subject: Re: wheels
Date: Feb 03, 1998
Im not sure where he got them, but Mr. Millet, in Windham, ME has very nice a/c wheels with brakes that were, if I remember correctly, around $75 each. I can find out if you like. Theres a picture of one here: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/piet/acimg/EM-wheel.jpg Richard > I've just finished the legs of my landing gear ready to fabricate the > axles. > But before I weld the 1 1/2" axles in place I thought I should probably get > the wheels first just to make sure that they needed that size of axle. I > think that I will use 6" wheels. Wow are the wheel and brake setups in Wicks > and Aircraft Spruce high or what? Will have more in wheel and tires than > airframe. Any of you guys have any other ideas. Tried to fine used 172 > wheels but they are getting scarce. > Also the information and ideas on this chat line thing are really great. > Thanks alot. > > ----------------------------- http://www.wrld.com/w3builder Pietenpols, Electronic Music, Website Design, Stompilation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan A. Laudani"
Subject: Re: Model A Radiator options
Date: Feb 03, 1998
TED, Do you have the chord angle rigged right? What speed are you getting? How did your weight and balance come out? A plane should not fly so nose high... >Jim, > >I have news for you. I have a Continental A65/75 and I can't see in front >of me!! Especially with a passenger, but still flies with the nose high >enough to not be able to see well without one. > >Ted Brousseau, >Naples, FL > >>Does anyone have any information regarding placing the radiator on a Model >>A - Air Camper under the motor as opposed directly in front of the cockpit? >> >>This has been another reason I've been leaning towards an air-cooled version >>as I tend to like to see in front! I tought I'd seen something about this >>before. Has anyone built one like this, and are there cooling problems? >> >>Jim Wright >>jgw(at)skynet.be >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary McArthur <garymc(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: wheels
Date: Feb 04, 1998
Rick: I got a pair of Goodyear wheels w/brakes from the Flymarket at Sun-N-Fun. The pair cost me $40.00 There were probably 15-20 more pair for the same price. There were all sorts of master cylinders for 5-20 bucks apiece also. I bought retread tires from Hawkins Aircraft Tire Co. (1-800-321-9717) for about $25 ea and I forget what I paid for the tubes. These are the same wheels used on my Ercoupe - not the greatest braking power in the world - but they do the job - besides the Pietenpol will be at least a couple of hundred pounds lighter... Gary... Rick Rager wrote: > Hi guys: > I've just finished the legs of my landing gear ready to fabricate the > axles. > But before I weld the 1 1/2" axles in place I thought I should probably get > the wheels first just to make sure that they needed that size of axle. I > think that I will use 6" wheels. Wow are the wheel and brake setups in Wicks > and Aircraft Spruce high or what? Will have more in wheel and tires than > airframe. Any of you guys have any other ideas. Tried to fine used 172 > wheels but they are getting scarce. > Also the information and ideas on this chat line thing are really great. > Thanks alot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: wheels
Date: Feb 04, 1998
Richard, I also would be interested in more information on the whhels/brakes. I only got about a quarter band on the photo.It looks like a wire wheel from what I could see. Can you supply address/phone number and resend picture? Thanks, -=Ian=- > From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion


December 12, 1997 - February 04, 1998

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