Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ah
August 10, 1998 - September 05, 1998
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey) |
Hello all,
How about a nice long report on Brodhead? I have been suffering becaused I
had to miss this year and really need a fix.
Thanks,
Bob B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing hardware |
Good luck finding these things at an affordable price. If you do let the
rest of us know. I did mine by drilling the spars and using treaded rods
and nuts, no turnbuckles used. Cheaper and lighter. jas
>Guys:
>Ready to install wing wires (drag/anti-drag) but need turnbuckles.
>Anyone have a source other than standard mail-order outfits like A/C
>Spruce and Wicks? I'd like to avoid taking out a mortgage to get a ship
>set of these things. Thanks.
>C.J. Beck
>Wichita, KS
>316.733.4553
>
>
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Doesn't a skid make a horrible scraping noise dragging down the tarmac?
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net>
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 5:46 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Wheel
>Ron,
>
>Think long and hard before you add any weight that far aft. Piets tend
>toward tail heaviness anyway. My personal opinion is the tail wheel itself
>is too heavy, but you decide. A flat bottomed skid will probably not rip
>off........
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: PTNPOL(at)aol.com
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:21 AM
>Subject: Re: Tail Wheel
>
>
>>I am currently working on the tailpost of the fuselage. Leaving the last
>>tailpost off is working out well so far. The hand planning is easier.
You
>>do not have to taper the tail post by hand. I will use my tablesaw to
cut
>>the angles.
>>
>>I was wondering if I should beef up the last section of the fuselage where
>>the tail wheel attaches ? I hear stories of tail wheels ripping off.
>>In addition, do you guys like the "A" frame type of tail wheel per the
>1934
>>plans better or do you like an aircraft type leaf spring better? I am at
>>that point where I have to make a decision. Any input would be
>appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -=Ron=-
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Wing hardware |
Try B&B Supply in Kansas. I don't have their number handy, but they are a
aviation surplus and recovery shop that had new turnbuckles for about $5
each when I bought mine about 18 months ago.
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
& Marian Beck
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 1998 5:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing hardware
Guys:
Ready to install wing wires (drag/anti-drag) but need turnbuckles.
Anyone have a source other than standard mail-order outfits like A/C
Spruce and Wicks? I'd like to avoid taking out a mortgage to get a ship
set of these things. Thanks.
C.J. Beck
Wichita, KS
316.733.4553
________________________________________________________________________________
Most people who will be doing any operations off paved strips us a
tailwheel. It need not be heavy. Mine is heavier that I would like at
about 4.5 lbs, but you can do better. The heath tailwheel assembly is only
a couple of pounds. Not fully swiviling (sp) but seems to work fine.
building your own is also an option as well.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
John Greenlee
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 6:24 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Wheel
Ron,
Think long and hard before you add any weight that far aft. Piets tend
toward tail heaviness anyway. My personal opinion is the tail wheel itself
is too heavy, but you decide. A flat bottomed skid will probably not rip
off........
John
-----Original Message-----
From: PTNPOL(at)aol.com
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Wheel
>I am currently working on the tailpost of the fuselage. Leaving the last
>tailpost off is working out well so far. The hand planning is easier. You
>do not have to taper the tail post by hand. I will use my tablesaw to cut
>the angles.
>
>I was wondering if I should beef up the last section of the fuselage where
>the tail wheel attaches ? I hear stories of tail wheels ripping off.
>In addition, do you guys like the "A" frame type of tail wheel per the
1934
>plans better or do you like an aircraft type leaf spring better? I am at
>that point where I have to make a decision. Any input would be
appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> -=Ron=-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)bbt.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Wing hardware |
(913)884-5930.
They said they could get me a price on AN-130 turnbuckle assemblies this
afternoon, which I will then post.
> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:35:56 -0600
> From: steve(at)byu.edu
> Subject: RE: Wing hardware
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> MIME-version: 1.0
> Comments: Originally To: "Pietenpol Discussion"
> X-Listname:
>
> Try B&B Supply in Kansas. I don't have their number handy, but they are a
> aviation surplus and recovery shop that had new turnbuckles for about $5
> each when I bought mine about 18 months ago.
>
> Steve E.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> & Marian Beck
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 1998 5:13 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Wing hardware
>
>
> Guys:
> Ready to install wing wires (drag/anti-drag) but need turnbuckles.
> Anyone have a source other than standard mail-order outfits like A/C
> Spruce and Wicks? I'd like to avoid taking out a mortgage to get a ship
> set of these things. Thanks.
> C.J. Beck
> Wichita, KS
> 316.733.4553
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
If you use the A frame, use 3/4" .049 tubing instead of the 5/8 .o35. If
you plan on using the leaf spring something will have to be strengthned to
handle the different loadings.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
PTNPOL(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 1998 11:19 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Wheel
I am currently working on the tailpost of the fuselage. Leaving the last
tailpost off is working out well so far. The hand planning is easier. You
do not have to taper the tail post by hand. I will use my tablesaw to cut
the angles.
I was wondering if I should beef up the last section of the fuselage where
the tail wheel attaches ? I hear stories of tail wheels ripping off.
In addition, do you guys like the "A" frame type of tail wheel per the 1934
plans better or do you like an aircraft type leaf spring better? I am at
that point where I have to make a decision. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
-=Ron=-
________________________________________________________________________________
John, I appreciated your comments on the use of aluminum struts.
However, i am unable to find a source. Can you help? Did you stick with
the same elliptical cross section? Or go larger? What was the cost per
foot? I have been on vacation and am just wading through 105 e-mails.
Thanks.
-=Ian=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing hardware |
Might I suggest that you check with the aircraft manfacturers there in
Wichita...sometimes they sell surplus (swept up off the floor) hardware by the
pound. They say it's cheaper to sweep it up and sell that way than take the
time of some high priced line worker to stop and pick it up. I know of al
least two people who go to Boeing in Washington and buy tools that way. They
make a fortune reselling them on the used market. One in Wichita, also. If
it works, maybe we can all help defray your cost of buying bulk, unsorted
hardware by buying from you.
Let us know if you make any headway.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
I can't remember the source though I have their papers in my stuff
somewhere. It is not eliptical stuff but true streamline stuff. They are
not sold by the foot but in I think 8 ft lengths. Something like 25 or 35
bucks a piece. I bought the smallest size they had which is similar to the
struts drawn on the Piet plans and ample strong enough for a Piet. The wall
thickness is heaver than a comparable steel strut.
Look in the back of Sport Aviation and Kitplanes and there are a couple of
dealers listed. One in Ohio and one in Arizona I think. I used the guy in
Ohio I think. This stuff is intended for the ultralite industry probably.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Holland
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 10:17 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>John, I appreciated your comments on the use of aluminum struts.
>However, i am unable to find a source. Can you help? Did you stick with
>the same elliptical cross section? Or go larger? What was the cost per
>foot? I have been on vacation and am just wading through 105 e-mails.
>Thanks.
>-=Ian=-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Ask your airport board to plow up the tarmac and plant grass. :-)
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Reed
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 8:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Wheel
>Doesn't a skid make a horrible scraping noise dragging down the tarmac?
>
>Brent Reed
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 5:46 AM
>Subject: Re: Tail Wheel
>
>
>>Ron,
>>
>>Think long and hard before you add any weight that far aft. Piets tend
>>toward tail heaviness anyway. My personal opinion is the tail wheel
itself
>>is too heavy, but you decide. A flat bottomed skid will probably not rip
>>off........
>>
>>John
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: PTNPOL(at)aol.com
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:21 AM
>>Subject: Re: Tail Wheel
>>
>>
>>>I am currently working on the tailpost of the fuselage. Leaving the last
>>>tailpost off is working out well so far. The hand planning is easier.
>You
>>>do not have to taper the tail post by hand. I will use my tablesaw to
>cut
>>>the angles.
>>>
>>>I was wondering if I should beef up the last section of the fuselage
where
>>>the tail wheel attaches ? I hear stories of tail wheels ripping off.
>>>In addition, do you guys like the "A" frame type of tail wheel per the
>>1934
>>>plans better or do you like an aircraft type leaf spring better? I am at
>>>that point where I have to make a decision. Any input would be
>>appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -=Ron=-
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sanford \"Sandy\" Love" |
My name is Sandy and I just recently purchased a Piet with a Franklin
90HP. The mounting was done with EMT conduit frame bolted to the
firewall. The engine is placed about 15 to 18 inches from firewall to
back of engine. I have a couple of questions. The thrust line on the
engine appears to be prop down about 1" to 1.25". I notice in the plans
that for the "A" engine it show a nose low mounting. Would this apply
for all engines. Does anyone have information on mating a Franklin 90 to
a Piet.
My name is Sandy and I just recently
purchased a
Piet with a Franklin 90HP. The mounting was done with EMT conduit frame
bolted
to the firewall. The engine is placed about 15 to 18 inches from
firewall to
back of engine. I have a couple of questions. The thrust line on the
engine
appears to be prop down about 1 to 1.25. I notice in the
plans that
for the A engine it show a nose low mounting. Would this
apply for
all engines. Does anyone have information on mating a Franklin 90 to a
Piet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Ask your airport board to plow up the tarmac and plant grass. :-)
>John
Frank Pavliga here in Ohio has a shoe with a small keel in the bottom
for directional control on grass, and then has a fixed tailwheel setup
he can swap out and use for going into paved strips.
Speaking of the best of both worlds, I landed at Goshen, IN both to
and from Oshkosh and wha-la ! They have both grass and pavement.
Both very well kept and the grass is rolled. Nice folks. It was nice
to talk with the Lockheed Jetstar pilots I followed in on runway 09.
Turns out they fly the owner of the Indianapolis Colts to a bed and
breakfast some weekends !!! They liked the Piet too !
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine Mount |
>My name is Sandy and I just recently purchased a Piet with a Franklin 90HP.
>The mounting was done with EMT conduit frame bolted to the firewall. The
>engine is placed about 15 to 18 inches from firewall to back of engine. I
>have a couple of questions. The thrust line on the engine appears to be
prop >down about 1" to 1.25". I notice in the plans that for the "A" engine
it >show a nose low mounting. Would this apply for all engines. Does anyone
have >information on mating a Franklin 90 to a Piet.
Interesting. I have a Piet with the same engine. I didn't build it and
haven't looked at the mounting and plans in much detail so I can't help you
much on that. As on yours there is a lot of room behind the engine. This
makes the cowling very long but hasn't seemed to cause any problem with
flying characteristics. Franklins are very smooth running and the 90 Hp
gives nice take off and climb performance (but doesn't help much in cruise!).
Jim Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Dave Matthews Intro |
Steve asks that I sent an intro to the list so here it is.
I am a 40 year old software geek for Xerox - used to write
business software for a living, now I am in the Software
Engineering Process Group - process weenie.
One wife, two kids (boys 5 and 9), two dogs, three cats in Retsof,
NY. That is 30 miles south of Rochester, NY and five miles from
where the National Warplane Museum was before they got into
a pissing match and the museum fell apart.
Other hobbies - model airplanes (FAC and R/C), ham radio
(KB2YWT), woodworking, and metal worker wanabee - blacksmith
/machinist. Most of the woodworking is with handtools any more
due to CTS and wanting to let the kids play with my toys and
me. I am on the Oldtools list as is at least one other member
of this list. I like to build things. Built my ham radio from
a kit, there is a 16' strip built canoe almost ready for varnish
in the driveway, and a Windsor chair waiting for final glue up
next to me.
As for flying stuff. Started building rubber kits when I was
maybe in 1st grade, U/C for a while, R/C at 13. Built my 2nd
radio from a kit at about 14. Many years of various R/C stuff
and a few years of rubber F/F since then.
I was looking for my next major project. The kitchen remodel
in my future is not counted as a major project :-). Since I
was I kid I have wanted to build a boat, car, plane, and house.
Got the boat, and have decided to put off the car until the
kids are a little closer to driving. The house comes after
they move out. That leaves us with a plane.
First step in building a plane is to call a CFI and schedule
a lesson. I now have 2 hours of dual, 3 takeoffs and 2
landings. The wife is not real thrilled but she will come
around. Does anyone know where I can get some taildragger
dual around Rochester, NY? Midlife crisis can be fun.
Second step is to find a design - start by defining the rules.
1 - safe, not the second plane built from the plans
2 - cheap
3 - 2 seats are nice, 4 are better.
4 - technology that I can deal with. I am not a welder and I
would prefer not to do resins. This leaves wood and sheet metal.
I understand wood, I could be a tin knocker but a Teenie Two is
not real good for someone that weighs 240.
That is how I ended up here. The Piet is one of the designs that
is under consideration. Fisher Celebrity and FFP Dakota are some
of the others. The 4 seaters that I have found violate too many
of the above rules.
I think that I will sit back and listen for a while now. Figure
that if I start building this winter then it will be done when I
have enough hours that I don't turn myself into a smoking crater
when it comes time to fly it.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks, John. I will dig back through. It sounds very attractive.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Speaking of Franklins... |
As some of you know I have a Stinson 10A project. I have a Franklin 90 that
I am most likely not going to put back in the plane, because the Stinson is
too heavy for only 90hp. Therefore I might consider selling the Franklin.
It has less than 200 hours according to the logs since major. It has sat
for several years. Last flown in 93. Leaks oil, but doesn't burn it.
Previous owner thinks some oil seals might be dry. I also have a brand new
Falcon wood prop to go with it. I have thought of replacing my A-65 with it
for more power on the piet, but just cant stand the down time.
$3500
Steve E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Good day all,
Getting there little by little. Have covered and taped both ailerons since
coming back from Brodhead. Am working at reduced pace now due to August 15
extension deadline. I am reassembling fittings to fuselage prior to
covering. Lots of fiddling work as some have to be re-painted. Its
different this time because I am cotter-keying and safetying everything.
This ain't no trial assembly.
My registration papers go in to the FAA today. I must think I'll finish one
of these days!
Any of y'all have any experience spraying Poly-Tone over metal. I
understand it gets mixed results. I am thinking of spraying the struts with
black enamel as they will get handled so much.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren D. Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 6:06 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>
>
>John
> Could you provide us with the source of your ultra-light streamlined
>aluminum flying struts. Sounds like a good idea, maybe even with a whole
length
>of 4130 square and end fittings?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Warren
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Dave Matthews Intro |
Now that was a good intro. Thanks Dave,
We hope that the Piet works out for you.
Stevee
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Tuesday, August 11, 1998: (If I kept a diary.....this would have been
the entry) Left work about 4pm and picked up some gasoline for the
lawn tractor to cut grass this evening at home. Drove past Valley City
airport to say hello to the owner Don Helmick and continued home.
Pulled over to the hangar to put the pitot tube cover on (which I had
forgotten to do after the last flight) and looked at the winds. It was
sunny, a little windy, and cool. Well, as long as I'm out here I
should
fly it, right ? I had changed the oil and re-safetied the oil filter
screen
the previous Saturday so the least I should do is fly it to make sure
it's
not leaking right ? Three hours later I put the plane away
after buzzing around to a few local grass strips, talking to some guys
flying a Titan Tornado (?) a very fun looking light plane with a fighter
like nose, circling an old neighbor's house until I drove him nuts
enough to come out on
his deck and wave at me, tried slow flight into the wind over the
airport
to see how slow I could go over the ground without falling out of the
air, turned around to back-taxi two or three times knowing that I
should
go home and cut grass now, but always took off again. I felt guilty
putting the plane away at sunset knowing my grass would only be taller
on Wednesday after work, but then I figured I could relish this evening
next February when I'm inside the house looking at 6 " of snow
swirling around my road salt stained car. The grass could wait today.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
Facinating story! You really know how to hurt a guy! Obviously, I am as
envious as hell! If you keep the philosophy up, no one will see the 16
inches of grass any way if the snow flattens it out. By spring, thoughts
could go towards green concrete, then the problem is really solved.
Seriously, it's stories like this that encourage me to keep on gluing.
Have a good day. (another one)
-=Ian=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
Desk drool file tab is for this one.
It makes me want to build a little faster.
(Coincidentally, I was humbled to mowing lawn last night..)
David Scott 8/12/98 07:31
Michael D Cuy wrote:
> Tuesday, August 11, 1998: (If I kept a diary.....this would have been
> the entry) Left work about 4pm and picked up some gasoline for the
> lawn tractor to cut grass this evening at home. Drove past Valley City
> airport to say hello to the owner Don Helmick and continued home.
> Pulled over to the hangar to put the pitot tube cover on (which I had
> forgotten to do after the last flight) and looked at the winds. It was
> sunny, a little windy, and cool. Well, as long as I'm out here I should
> fly it, right ? I had changed the oil and re-safetied the oil filter screen
> the previous Saturday so the least I should do is fly it to make sure it's
> not leaking right ? Three hours later I put the plane away after buzzing around
to a few local grass strips, talking to some guys flying a Titan Tornado (?)
a very fun looking light plane with a fighter like nose, circling an old neighbor's
house until I drove him nuts enough to come out on
> his deck and wave at me, tried slow flight into the wind over the airport
> to see how slow I could go over the ground without falling out of the
> air, turned around to back-taxi two or three times knowing that I should
> go home and cut grass now, but always took off again. I felt guilty
> putting the plane away at sunset knowing my grass would only be taller
> on Wednesday after work, but then I figured I could relish this evening
> next February when I'm inside the house looking at 6 " of snow
> swirling around my road salt stained car. The grass could wait today.
>
> Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
Fortunately, my wife loves mowing the lawn.
On 12 Aug 98 at 8:07, Michael D Cuy wrote:
> Tuesday, August 11, 1998: (If I kept a diary.....this would have
> been
>
> the entry) Left work about 4pm and picked up some gasoline for the
>
> lawn tractor to cut grass this evening at home. Drove past Valley
> City
>
> airport to say hello to the owner Don Helmick and continued home.
>
> Pulled over to the hangar to put the pitot tube cover on (which I
> had
>
> forgotten to do after the last flight) and looked at the winds. It
> was
>
> sunny, a little windy, and cool. Well, as long as I'm out here I
> should
>
> fly it, right ? I had changed the oil and re-safetied the oil
> filter screen
>
> the previous Saturday so the least I should do is fly it to make
> sure it's
>
> not leaking right ? Three hours later I put the plane
> away after buzzing around to a few local grass strips, talking to
> some guys flying a Titan Tornado (?) a very fun looking light plane
> with a fighter like nose, circling an old neighbor's house until I
> drove him nuts enough to come out on
>
> his deck and wave at me, tried slow flight into the wind over the
> airport
>
> to see how slow I could go over the ground without falling out of
> the
>
> air, turned around to back-taxi two or three times knowing that I
> should
>
> go home and cut grass now, but always took off again. I felt
> guilty
>
> putting the plane away at sunset knowing my grass would only be
> taller
>
> on Wednesday after work, but then I figured I could relish this
> evening
>
> next February when I'm inside the house looking at 6 " of snow
>
> swirling around my road salt stained car. The grass could wait
> today.
>
>
> Mike C.
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
- Henry Ford (1863-1947)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
>Fortunately, my wife loves mowing the lawn. <
8080,8080,8080Ahh, now that one is a keeper
!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
and possibly the ailerons.
I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
CG better for me.
Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
Thanks...
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey) |
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
Mowing, what grass? I told my wife that in another 23 million years we are
going to be hit by an astorid so it is not worth fixing up the yard. ;
)
Bob B.
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Mowing Grass
> Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:16 AM
>
>
> >Fortunately, my wife loves mowing the lawn. <
>
>
> 8080,8080,8080Ahh, now that one is a keeper
> !
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
Go for it Spruce is too expensive and Fir is stronger. If you used fir
throughout the plane wouldn't be 15 lbs heavier.
>Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
>I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
>and possibly the ailerons.
>I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
>cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
>I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
>CG better for me.
>Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>
>
>Thanks...
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
Greg Yotz asked about Douglas fir.
A friend completed a lovely Doug fir Piet with a C-85 engine.
It wound up a bit tail heavy, but nothing that couldn't be taken
care of by moving the wing a few inches.
Out of curiosity, what engine are you using that gives a better
CG with heavier material?
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Mowing Grass |
=A0
Mike[Steve Eldredge] ,
Sure wish I had the grass fields around here!=A0 My plane is stuck in=
Idaho
right now.=A0 I flew it to Burley for the weekend,=A0 (somehow I conv=
inced my
wife to drive the 4=A0 kids in the van) and decided against flying ba=
ck after
looking at the weather.=A0 Seems like a made a good choice to drive h=
ome.=A0 The
next morning (Sunday)=A0 my flying partner Duane called to make sure
that I
wasn't the one who crashed on the way back from Idaho.=A0 Turns out t=
hat a
couple of Texans piled a warrior into the mountain side 60 miles nort=
h of
SLC that same night.=A0 Remarkably they both survived, albiet with tw=
o broken
legs each, claiming weather forced them down.=A0 I'll be headed back
to ID on
Friday for to retrieve said Air Camper, but not without giving a bunc=
h of
rides and landing out agian on my uncles wheat field....=A0=A0 What a=
blast!!!=A0=A0
BTW=A0 these old airplanes are people magnets.=A0 Even at hard surfac=
ed
airports!
=A0
Steve E=A0
________________________________________________________________________________
Used Doug Fir throughout empty weight is 626lbs.
Go for it!
STevee
-----Original Message-----
Greg Yotz
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:30 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fur
Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
and possibly the ailerons.
I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
CG better for me.
Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
Thanks...
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
What was your source for wood? Was there anything else special for using
douglas fur?
Did you use d/f for your spars? How did you route them out?
Thank.... :-)
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
> Used Doug Fir throughout empty weight is 626lbs.
>
> Go for it!
>
> STevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Greg Yotz
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:30 AM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Douglas Fur
>
> Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
> I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
> and possibly the ailerons.
> I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
> cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
> I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
> CG better for me.
> Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>
> Thanks...
>
> Greg Yotz
>
________________________________________________________________________________
What was your source for wood? Was there anything else special for using
douglas fur?
Did you use d/f for your spars? How did you route them out?
Thank.... :-)
I got it locally from Salt Lake Mill and Specialty Supply. I splinters a
bit easier than spruce (so I hear) Other than that it works just like any
other wood. I used it in my spars too. Routed them with... a router!
Seriously, I just made a template for the spars where I wanted to cut out
the wood, then routed out with several passes of a 1/2 router bit. On the
edge of the cut I used a half round to avoid a sharp corner.
STEve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
That was what I meant about routing.... I knew it splintered a little easier,
also wondered if you reduced stock sizes or routed a little extra because of
the additional strength?
What did you use for a guide as far as picking out specific pieces? How many
grains per inch, knots, direction of grain etc. (do you have to worry about
pitch pockets as bad as with spruce?)
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
> What was your source for wood? Was there anything else special for using
> douglas fur?
> Did you use d/f for your spars? How did you route them out?
>
> Thank.... :-)
>
> I got it locally from Salt Lake Mill and Specialty Supply. I splinters a
> bit easier than spruce (so I hear) Other than that it works just like any
> other wood. I used it in my spars too. Routed them with... a router!
> Seriously, I just made a template for the spars where I wanted to cut out
> the wood, then routed out with several passes of a 1/2 router bit. On the
> edge of the cut I used a half round to avoid a sharp corner.
>
> STEve
________________________________________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
Greg Yotz
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 10:40 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Douglas Fur
That was what I meant about routing.... I knew it splintered a little
easier,
also wondered if you reduced stock sizes or routed a little extra because of
the additional strength?
Nope, used per plans sizes
What did you use for a guide as far as picking out specific pieces? How
many
grains per inch, knots, direction of grain etc. (do you have to worry about
pitch pockets as bad as with spruce?)
Become aquainted with AC 43-13a Acceptable Methods and Procedures It has
all the information about how to grade aircraft woods, and lists other
acceptable substitutes.
I had very few pitch pockets.
Good Luck,
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
Michael,
Seems everyone agrees! A hearty Congratulations!
Sweet!
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joe czaplicki <fishin(at)pop.wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
I was fortunate to get a walk around Mike's Piet at Brodhead. What a Prize
it is!! Kudo's to you Mike!!!
Joe C
Zion, Ill
>
>Michael,
>
>Seems everyone agrees! A hearty Congratulations!
>
>Sweet!
>
>Stevee
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
What did you pay per board foot??? I know it will change depending on the area,
because of transport etc. I was just wondering.
Also what kind of plywood did you use??
I have a partial AC 43-13a.(photo copied and lost part of it) I was wondering
if anyone knew where to find it published on the net?
Thanks for answering all the continuos questions!!!!
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
>>Michael,
>>Seems everyone agrees! A hearty Congratulations!
>>Sweet!
>>Stevee
Stevee and all- Many thank you's ! I was just happy to get the thing
up there and back let alone win anything. Now that my restrictions are
flown off I wish I could give rides to all the guys building and on the
discussion group to keep em' fired up. It's a long haul building a Piet
but I'm sure you'd agree that once it's done, it's all worth it.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
Greg Yotz
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 12:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Douglas Fur
What did you pay per board foot??? I know it will change depending on the
area,
because of transport etc. I was just wondering.
Also what kind of plywood did you use??
$4.75 -5.25 per board foot. I used 108 b/f.
3mm and 6mm 3ply non certified/ but aircraft quality plywood from B&D
international in oregon or washington.
I have a partial AC 43-13a.(photo copied and lost part of it) I was
wondering
if anyone knew where to find it published on the net?
Thanks for answering all the continuos questions!!!!
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
Mike
I'd love to see some pix. Any way to get some on the web?
Marc Davis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMacLaren(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
Mike --
Loved your "Mowing Grass" piece and may put it in the BPAN
-- for all those without email.
-=Grant=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Registration |
Black Rust0leum will look good over a period of time, and help protect the
struts at the same time. Would suggest a good acid wash followed by a
thorough rinse and warm air blow dry before priming/painting. Are you going
to go the Latex route on the paint, for "period authenticity"?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
mumble, mumble, jealous, mumble
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilot00(at)earthlink.net |
regarding the douglas fir. i am building my piet with this type of wood.
the only spruce is in the wing ribs as it is easier to mold for hte shapes.
the data that i have found shows onl 3 to 5 % increase in weight witch is
negligibl. the E.A.A and the F.A.A has good data.
>Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
>I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
>and possibly the ailerons.
>I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
>cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
>I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
>CG better for me.
>Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>
>
>Thanks...
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilot00(at)earthlink.net |
my piet is being built from douglas fir. the only reason that spruce is
marked by aircraft spruce and the others is the markup in price. do not let
them fool you as to the benefits of spruce over douglas fir. just be sure
on your selection meets the minimum aircraft requirements.
I have good resources. let me know what you want.
>Used Doug Fir throughout empty weight is 626lbs.
>
>Go for it!
>
>STevee
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Greg Yotz
>Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:30 AM
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Douglas Fur
>
>
>Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
>I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
>and possibly the ailerons.
>I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
>cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
>I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
>CG better for me.
>Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>
>
>Thanks...
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilot00(at)earthlink.net |
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Greg Yotz
>Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 10:40 AM
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Re: Douglas Fur
>
>
>That was what I meant about routing.... I knew it splintered a little
>easier,
>also wondered if you reduced stock sizes or routed a little extra because of
>the additional strength?
>
>Nope, used per plans sizes
>
>What did you use for a guide as far as picking out specific pieces? How
>many
>grains per inch, knots, direction of grain etc. (do you have to worry about
>pitch pockets as bad as with spruce?)
>
>Become aquainted with AC 43-13a Acceptable Methods and Procedures It has
>all the information about how to grade aircraft woods, and lists other
>acceptable substitutes.
>I had very few pitch pockets.
>
>Good Luck,
>
>Stevee
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Registration |
Ed,
Am following the Poly-Fiber / Stits thing all the way through. We'll use
the Poly-Tone. Only doubts are about sticking the Poly-Tone to metal.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed0248(at)aol.com <Ed0248(at)aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 9:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Registration
>Black Rust0leum will look good over a period of time, and help protect the
>struts at the same time. Would suggest a good acid wash followed by a
>thorough rinse and warm air blow dry before priming/painting. Are you
going
>to go the Latex route on the paint, for "period authenticity"?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | RE: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
>Mike
>I'd love to see some pix. Any way to get some on the web?
>Marc Davis
Hello Marc,
You bet, try these sites:
http://users.aol.com/bpanews/index.html
http://users.aol.com/bpabpa7315/parade.html
http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/
Best Regards, Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
Mike,
What did you use to build your wheels? Was it very difficult? What was the
cost? The idea of building wheels seems a little tricky.
Thanks for sharing your great project with us.
Brent Reed
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 6:13 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion!
>>Mike
>>I'd love to see some pix. Any way to get some on the web?
>>Marc Davis
>
>Hello Marc,
>
>You bet, try these sites:
>
>http://users.aol.com/bpanews/index.html
>
>http://users.aol.com/bpabpa7315/parade.html
>
>http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/
>
>
>Best Regards, Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in 400
hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
Paris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Michael Cuy! Oshkosh 98 plans built Champion! |
Hi Brent:
I'm going to burglarize your conversation here, as I have gone thru the
process of building some "tall" wheels. It really isn't all that difficult.
Build or buy the hubs and buy some rims that fit your size requirements. From
my experience, check on the tire sizes available so that you don't buy a rim
that has a very slim tire selection to fit. Then have a motorcycle service
company "lace and true" your hub and rim with new spokes. I chose 9 gauge
stainless steel spokes as they are incredibly strong---will pull 1000 pounds
each.
My costs are like this. $40.00 each for Honda Trail 90 front wheel assembly
complete including mechanical brakes and axles. $95.00 each for lace, true and
balance with 9 gauge stainless spokes. Tubes & tires will run from
$45.00-$150.00 depending on a wide number of choices.
Best Regards,
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Hi Brent:
> I'm going to burglarize your conversation here, as I have gone thru the
>process of building some "tall" wheels. It really isn't all that difficult.
Brent- Warren's description is very similar to my story. (but I'll bore
you with mine anyway....:)
I searched many, many motorcycle shops to find 19" aluminum rims
with 40 spoke holes as opposed to the more common 32 I think it is now.
(ps- you can use 17, 18, ....21" wheels.) I found a pair of Borranni
made in Italy 19 x 3.5 undrilled alum. rims for $ 40 each. I followed
a similar description found in one of the BPA newsletters by Howard
Henderson or Grant about Howard on how to fabricate hubs.
I welded up two stainless 1/8" thick discs to a stainless tube 6" wide
and pressed in two oilite impregnated flanged bushings from Bearings
Incorporated. (now called something else) I took the hubs and
rims back to the cycle shop with a sketch of both. The owner faxed
my sketch (with all my dimensions on there) to Buchannen's Cycle
shop in CA. I specified 8 or 9 gauge stainless spokes similar to
Warren. You can get steel, chromed, or stainless...spokes.
A dangerous thing is to make your own spokes by cutting down used
spokes and threading them. Cycle threads are 'rolled' into the
material, not cut. This process avoids the weak stress risers you get
when you cut threads by hand. It wasn't cheap to have spokes made
but I've bashed that plane in pretty good 2 or three times without a hint
of ill effect. (except on my passengers, of course :)) Try not to
cheeze-out on your axle wall thickness either...I forget what it is, but
it feels too heavy to your senses. (.17 or .20"?) Once my spokes
arrived the cycle shop couldn't use their lacing jig to do my wide 6"
hubs so he gave me some pointers and home I went. Buchannen's
provides you with a thread lubricant, and specific instructions on
some items, but the rest was my problem. It took about 2 hours
per wheel to lace and true them up.
It was pretty much trial and error with the help of a dial indicator I
borrowed from work one eve. Actually your eye is a super natural
dial indicator too.
Back to the cycle shop and
they put a big flat wide black rubber band around the rim base to
protect the inner tube from the protruding threads poking thru.
On advice from the cycle shop I ground all of my threads down
to the nipple on that side and put duct tape over each one before the
rubber 'band' when on. Nice and smooth. More work, but less
headaches later. Then they mounted the tires and tubes and off I
went. I spent approx. $650 total. For those with more money
Buchannens' will make you up a set with Sun Alum. rims I believe
for around $ 1,200. I've seen them and they are very, very nice.
(but $$) You can get used cycle rims with brakes and all too. Brian
Kenney in Canada has them and they have worked fine for him for
many years. I've heard the reason airplane builders of old designed
wide hubs was to take the side loads imposed by pilots like me in a
crosswind or groundloop. Too narrow or skinny spokes can fold over like an
umbrella in a strong wind.
The tire selection was easy- I copied Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy
tires called Avon Speedmaster's. I'm told you might not be able to
get that tread design anymore. J.C. Whitney shows lots of different
cycle replacement tire tread patterns too. I just looked thru the
catalog the cycle shop owner had and picked the pair I wanted.
He ordered them and a few days later I was in business.
The cycle wheels aren't as cushy as the low pressure round tires,
but they aren't that bad. I started with 32psi and tinkered with
pressures. I found about 26 lbs. is just right. There is a danger
by going too low though: the tire could slip on touchdown on
pavement and slide the inner-tube with it--shearing off your valve
stem causing an instant flat.
One thing is true: we all like the Piet design very much, but I had a
weak spot in me for one with tall spoked rims.
ps- I see in photos that John Greenlee has some nice looking spoked
rims and tires. Yu-whooo. John, would you like to describe any of
that ?
pss- Brent's initial question made me laugh when I thought of
a wise-guy answer- Q: What are your wheels made of ?"
Hope this helps some,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> |
| Subject: | For the Ford "A" troops............ |
ALL you ever wanted to know about babbit, etc...........
http://users.michiana.org/rosss/modela.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DXLViolins(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Mowing Grass |
Sounds wonderful fun ..........
Longing to start my building project!
(What is a son for... if not to mow the grass?????)
Keep Building and Flying!
Dom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
I bet one built that fast and that cheap wouldn't want to be parked next to
Michael C's.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Paris Wilcox
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 10:44 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: SA Piet
>Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in 400
>hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
>Paris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spoked Wheels |
I'm glad you asked......
Mine were done up from the Pavliga/Henderson design but made 'on the cheap'
so to speak. The rims are an aftermarket Harley Davidson replacement
sportster front rim. 21". The spokes are also a HD replacement part. I
cut out the disks and organized all the materials for the hubs which were
welded up at a local machine shop. (He only charged me 35 bucks, but I bet
he wouldn't do it again....) He not only welded up the hubs, but turned the
bushings from stock I provided, etc....
I got my wheels laced by this guy with LOTS of tattoos. I'm sure he has a
last name but all I ever knew was Dody Mike. I know because it said so on
one of his tattoos. He cut down the spokes and had the threads rolled by
some buddy of his.
My tires started out as a Cheng Shin knobby moto-cross tire. I took a
utility knife and cut off the knobs, and then used a disk sander on my drill
with 40 grit paper until I had something resembling a Clincher. Eight to
ten hours per tire.
The rims cost 45 bucks each if memory serves. The spokes were about the
same so we had 90 bucks each in rims and spokes. I don't remember what the
hub materials cost but lets say fifty bucks (probably less.) Thirty five
for machine work, one hundred for lacing and fourty five per tire. Does
that come out to 455 or so? Wheel, tire, tube and air weigh 19 lbs. I
covered the wheels with fabric just before Brodhead so I'm sure they will
weigh a few ounces more.
I used the lightweight (1.7 oz) fabric but wonder whether the heavy weight
(3.something oz) would have been better considering where the wheels do
their work. At any rate HD products and accessories are available in any
color desired so long as it is chromed. I figured chrome wheels would look
out of place on the Piet so I covered them. Besides, the covering is
supposed to gain you 5 mph......
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 11:45 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spoked Wheels
>>Hi Brent:
>> I'm going to burglarize your conversation here, as I have gone thru
the
>>process of building some "tall" wheels. It really isn't all that
difficult.
>
>Brent- Warren's description is very similar to my story. (but I'll bore
>you with mine anyway....:)
>
>I searched many, many motorcycle shops to find 19" aluminum rims
>with 40 spoke holes as opposed to the more common 32 I think it is now.
>(ps- you can use 17, 18, ....21" wheels.) I found a pair of Borranni
>made in Italy 19 x 3.5 undrilled alum. rims for $ 40 each. I followed
>a similar description found in one of the BPA newsletters by Howard
>Henderson or Grant about Howard on how to fabricate hubs.
>I welded up two stainless 1/8" thick discs to a stainless tube 6" wide
>and pressed in two oilite impregnated flanged bushings from Bearings
>Incorporated. (now called something else) I took the hubs and
>rims back to the cycle shop with a sketch of both. The owner faxed
>my sketch (with all my dimensions on there) to Buchannen's Cycle
>shop in CA. I specified 8 or 9 gauge stainless spokes similar to
>Warren. You can get steel, chromed, or stainless...spokes.
>A dangerous thing is to make your own spokes by cutting down used
>spokes and threading them. Cycle threads are 'rolled' into the
>material, not cut. This process avoids the weak stress risers you get
>when you cut threads by hand. It wasn't cheap to have spokes made
>but I've bashed that plane in pretty good 2 or three times without a hint
>of ill effect. (except on my passengers, of course :)) Try not to
>cheeze-out on your axle wall thickness either...I forget what it is, but
>it feels too heavy to your senses. (.17 or .20"?) Once my spokes
>arrived the cycle shop couldn't use their lacing jig to do my wide 6"
>hubs so he gave me some pointers and home I went. Buchannen's
>provides you with a thread lubricant, and specific instructions on
>some items, but the rest was my problem. It took about 2 hours
>per wheel to lace and true them up.
>It was pretty much trial and error with the help of a dial indicator I
>borrowed from work one eve. Actually your eye is a super natural
>dial indicator too.
> Back to the cycle shop and
>they put a big flat wide black rubber band around the rim base to
>protect the inner tube from the protruding threads poking thru.
>On advice from the cycle shop I ground all of my threads down
>to the nipple on that side and put duct tape over each one before the
>rubber 'band' when on. Nice and smooth. More work, but less
>headaches later. Then they mounted the tires and tubes and off I
>went. I spent approx. $650 total. For those with more money
>Buchannens' will make you up a set with Sun Alum. rims I believe
>for around $ 1,200. I've seen them and they are very, very nice.
>(but $$) You can get used cycle rims with brakes and all too. Brian
>Kenney in Canada has them and they have worked fine for him for
>many years. I've heard the reason airplane builders of old designed
>wide hubs was to take the side loads imposed by pilots like me in a
>crosswind or groundloop. Too narrow or skinny spokes can fold over like an
>umbrella in a strong wind.
>The tire selection was easy- I copied Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy
>tires called Avon Speedmaster's. I'm told you might not be able to
>get that tread design anymore. J.C. Whitney shows lots of different
>cycle replacement tire tread patterns too. I just looked thru the
>catalog the cycle shop owner had and picked the pair I wanted.
>He ordered them and a few days later I was in business.
>The cycle wheels aren't as cushy as the low pressure round tires,
>but they aren't that bad. I started with 32psi and tinkered with
>pressures. I found about 26 lbs. is just right. There is a danger
>by going too low though: the tire could slip on touchdown on
>pavement and slide the inner-tube with it--shearing off your valve
>stem causing an instant flat.
>One thing is true: we all like the Piet design very much, but I had a
>weak spot in me for one with tall spoked rims.
>
>ps- I see in photos that John Greenlee has some nice looking spoked
>rims and tires. Yu-whooo. John, would you like to describe any of
>that ?
>
>pss- Brent's initial question made me laugh when I thought of
>a wise-guy answer- Q: What are your wheels made of ?"
>
>Hope this helps some,
>Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
| Subject: | Silk screen printing |
Hi all
I own a business doing screen printing. and one of the things we do here is
printing on instrument panels, lots of glassairs and lancairs and cessnas.
what I would like to offer to the piet group is free screen printing on any
Pietenpol panel if you are interested please give me a call .
Toll free 1-888-693-2496
Thanks: Ken Hannan
Hannan Designs
Hi all
I own a business doing screen
printing.
and one of the things we do here is printing on instrument panels, lots
of
glassairs and lancairs and cessnas. what I would like to offer to the
piet group
is free screen printing on any Pietenpol panel if you are interested
please give
me a call .
Toll free
1-888-693-2496
Thanks: Ken Hannan
Hannan
Designs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
Where are you located?? I think I might be able to find everything I need
here. But it is a little frustrating at the lumber yard when you try to explain
to the guy why you need the grain so tight and just a certain direction. Now I
just play dumb and tell them my boss Bernie told me it had to be that way and
that my ass was depending on it. They seem to understand this and help me find
what I need.
I have almost all the sticks cut for the horz. and vert. stabilizers and I'm
picking up the plywood for gussets today!!!!!
Can anyone give suggested practices for cutting wing rib stock and not ending up
with most of the material in a pill under the table saw? I'm thinking of buying
a band saw.
Any suggestions would help....
Greg (I almost have my first part completed) Yotz
pilot00(at)earthlink.net wrote:
> my piet is being built from douglas fir. the only reason that spruce is
> marked by aircraft spruce and the others is the markup in price. do not let
> them fool you as to the benefits of spruce over douglas fir. just be sure
> on your selection meets the minimum aircraft requirements.
>
> I have good resources. let me know what you want.
>
> >Used Doug Fir throughout empty weight is 626lbs.
> >
> >Go for it!
> >
> >STevee
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Greg Yotz
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:30 AM
> >To: Pietenpol Discussion
> >Subject: Douglas Fur
> >
> >
> >Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
> >I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
> >and possibly the ailerons.
> >I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
> >cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
> >I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
> >CG better for me.
> >Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
> >
> >
> >Thanks...
> >
> >Greg Yotz
> >
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
Paris,
Was that in August? What page? I guess I need to join the EAA.
Brent Reed
Kent, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Paris Wilcox
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 8:44 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: SA Piet
>Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in 400
>hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
>Paris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Silk screen printing |
Help I can't read the small print. Could you use a larger print for the
older piet fans. Thanks jas
>>>>
Hi all
I own a business doing screen printing. and one of the things
we do here is printing on instrument panels, lots of glassairs and
lancairs and cessnas. what I would like to offer to the piet group is
free screen printing on any Pietenpol panel if you are interested please
give me a call .
Toll free 1-888-693-2496
Thanks: Ken Hannan
Hannan Designs
<<<<<<<<
jimsury(at)fbtc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: For the Ford "A" troops............ |
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee L. Schiek <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 8:45 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: For the Ford "A" troops............
>ALL you ever wanted to know about babbit, etc...........
>
>http://users.michiana.org/rosss/modela.html
>
>
Thanks Lee Great info source!
John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcmjones <jcmjones(at)mci2000.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
E-mail: jcmjones(at)mci2000.com
SUBSCRIBE PIET CHAT GROUP
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello all:
John Greenlee wrote:
>I bet one built that fast and that cheap wouldn't want to be parked
next to
>Michael C's.
>John
Actually, why not. The 2 airplanes represent different builders who
are
putting different things into their hobby and getting different things
out
of it. Some of us look at a 400 hour low cost airplane and think 'wow,
it
must be emberassing to take that thing out in public.'
Others look at an extremely nice example that sparkles like the jewel
that it as and think 'wow, he must have spent a fortune and a ton of
hours, I'll bet it's really heavy.'
This is a lot of the reason why homebuilt aviation attracts such a
diverse
and rich group of people. There is room for us all.
P.S. Some of my postings are mistaken as diatribes because I come
across as pretty heavy sometimes, but this is not meant to be one.
Randy Stockberger
Corvallis, OR
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paris Wilcox
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 10:44 AM
>Subject: SA Piet
>
>
>>Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in
400
>>hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
>>Paris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
400 hrs? lets see, that's a month of 13 1/2 hr days (!) -- sounds like
a good subject for a show on PBS! ;-). So what if your Piet looks a litt=
le "crude" -- just tell folks it's a replica of actual 30's Piet! -- buil=
t with the same materials as the original (aka "plan built"!)
Michael C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
> >>Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in
> 400
> >>hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
I don't believe 400 hrs is possible. I've read Mr. Pietenpol said it took
1000 hours -- and he was expert on building one. Surely a mere mortal can
not build faster than that.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 10:05 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: SA Piet
>400 hrs? lets see, that's a month of 13 1/2 hr days (!) -- sounds like a
good subject for a show on PBS! ;-). So what if your Piet looks a little
"crude" -- just tell folks it's a replica of actual 30's Piet! -- built with
the same materials as the original (aka "plan built"!)
>
>Michael C.
>Pretty Prairie, KS
>
>> >>Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in
>> 400
>> >>hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
I know what you mean in a way. The Piet attracts different people for
different reasons. I love antique sport airplanes. Especially the big
three place biplanes. Ted Davis gave me a ride in the 1929 Taperwing at
Brodhead and I'm hooked! One thing the Piet represents to me is an
affordable antique. Sort of a poor man's WACO.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Stockberger
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 9:34 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: SA Piet
>Hello all:
>
>John Greenlee wrote:
>>I bet one built that fast and that cheap wouldn't want to be parked
>next to
>>Michael C's.
>
>>John
>
>
>Actually, why not. The 2 airplanes represent different builders who
>are
>putting different things into their hobby and getting different things
>out
>of it. Some of us look at a 400 hour low cost airplane and think 'wow,
>it
>must be emberassing to take that thing out in public.'
>
>Others look at an extremely nice example that sparkles like the jewel
>that it as and think 'wow, he must have spent a fortune and a ton of
>hours, I'll bet it's really heavy.'
>
>This is a lot of the reason why homebuilt aviation attracts such a
>diverse
>and rich group of people. There is room for us all.
>
>P.S. Some of my postings are mistaken as diatribes because I come
>across as pretty heavy sometimes, but this is not meant to be one.
>
>Randy Stockberger
>Corvallis, OR
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paris Wilcox
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 10:44 AM
>>Subject: SA Piet
>>
>>
>>>Did anyone else see that piet on Sport Aviation this mo? Built in
>400
>>>hrs for a total cost of 2250! That must be nice!
>>>Paris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcmjones <jcmjones(at)mci2000.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
E-mail: jcmjones(at)mci2000.com
SUBSCRIBE PIET CHAT GROUP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
At last, my own computer, and my own internet. Now I must look through 200 back
e-mails.
oil can bob
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey) |
Dang there was some guy trying to give away a jeep engine. Too bad you
missed it.
Bob B.
> From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: at last
> Date: Sunday, August 16, 1998 1:24 PM
>
> At last, my own computer, and my own internet. Now I must look through
200 back e-mails.
> oil can bob
>
>
> http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
--Oil Can here,...wading through 198 e-mails.
About doug fir. When I started my "ace", I started out with fir, but soon found
that it split really easy. I then bought some beautifull stright grain hemlock,
and found that wood to be most satisfactory.. My 1/4 by 1/4 cap strips cut
and bent with no splits, and gussets nailed down just fine with the use of a
#65 pilot drill.
I later bought some very fine boat grade spruce for use as compression struts,
and found spruce to be an excellent material. Just dammed expensive!
My ribs are now finished, and am working on setting up a wing jig. For spars I
will seriously consider 3 woods -- boat grade spruce, western hemlock, and doug
fir.
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:30:07 Greg Yotz wrote:
>Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
>I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
>and possibly the ailerons.
>I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
>cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
>I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
>CG better for me.
>Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>
>
>Thanks...
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
--Oil Can here,...wading through 198 e-mails.
About doug fir. When I started my "ace", I started out with fir, but soon found
that it split really easy. I then bought some beautifull stright grain hemlock,
and found that wood to be most satisfactory.. My 1/4 by 1/4 cap strips cut
and bent with no splits, and gussets nailed down just fine with the use of a
#65 pilot drill.
I later bought some very fine boat grade spruce for use as compression struts,
and found spruce to be an excellent material. Just dammed expensive!
My ribs are now finished, and am working on setting up a wing jig. For spars I
will seriously consider 3 woods -- boat grade spruce, western hemlock, and doug
fir.
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:30:07 Greg Yotz wrote:
>Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
>I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
>and possibly the ailerons.
>I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
>cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
>I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
>CG better for me.
>Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>
>
>Thanks...
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Mixing Glue |
-I to am doing my glue ups using t-88. And the best thing that I have found to
take that glue off my hands is a bottle of rubbing alcohol from the local grocery
store, and an old cotton rag.
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:18:46 PTNPOL wrote:
>Hey guys,
> Go to the grocery store and get two sets of measuring spoons. This
>works great. All you have to do is wipe them out when your done and you
>are ready for the next glue up job. In addition, get some nitrile disposible
>gloves to protect your hands from the t-88. It is worth the eight to eleven
>dollars. It works better than trying to scrub the glue off of your hands.
>
> -=RON=-
>
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
What did you pay for you Hemlock???? What parts did you find DF unsatisfactory
for?
Greg Yotz...
oil can wrote:
> --Oil Can here,...wading through 198 e-mails.
>
> About doug fir. When I started my "ace", I started out with fir, but soon found
that it split really easy. I then bought some beautifull stright grain hemlock,
and found that wood to be most satisfactory.. My 1/4 by 1/4 cap strips cut
and bent with no splits, and gussets nailed down just fine with the use of
a #65 pilot drill.
>
> I later bought some very fine boat grade spruce for use as compression struts,
and found spruce to be an excellent material. Just dammed expensive!
>
> My ribs are now finished, and am working on setting up a wing jig. For spars
I will seriously consider 3 woods -- boat grade spruce, western hemlock, and doug
fir.
>
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:30:07 Greg Yotz wrote:
> >Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
> >I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
> >and possibly the ailerons.
> >I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
> >cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
> >I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
> >CG better for me.
> >Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
> >
> >
> >Thanks...
> >
> >Greg Yotz
> >
> >
> >
>
> http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Hi Mike,
I hope you remember my story of about a year ago how I was almost flipped by
the wake turbulance of the Citation I followed in? If not, I will gladdly
repeat it. That Piet is a mighty light a/c and is pretty tender.
Ted
Naples, FL/APF
> It was nice
>to talk with the Lockheed Jetstar pilots I followed in on runway 09.
>Turns out they fly the owner of the Indianapolis Colts to a bed and
>breakfast some weekends !!! They liked the Piet too !
>Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
A new batch of pictures has been added (20 of them!) to my Pietenpol
images page. Included are some long awaited Corvair photos. Heres the
URL:
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder/Piet/
Go to the image page and look under the pull-down for Doug Hunt's
Piet (thanks Doug!!). The image page now contains 345 Pietenpol
images!
Richard
p.s. Dont forget to sign my guestbook while you're there!
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
- Henry Ford (1863-1947)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sanford \"Sandy\" Love" |
| Subject: | Downward slant to engine |
Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to the
engine? Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What
would happen if the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
Any help would be appreciated.
Can anyone tell me why there is a
downward (nose
down) slant to the engine? Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly
aircraft
engine? What would happen if the engine was mounted along the thrust
line?
Any help would be
appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Hi Mike, I hope you remember my story of about a year ago how I was
almost flipped by>the wake turbulance of the Citation I followed in? If
not, I will gladdly repeat it. That Piet is a mighty light a/c and is
pretty tender.
>>Ted Naples, FL/APF
>> It was nice
>>to talk with the Lockheed Jetstar pilots I followed in on runway 09.
8080,8080,8080Hello Ted ! Good seeing you are
still on the list. I sure had wake
turbulence on my mind as I followed this kerosene burner down the
approach path. The old textbook examples came to mind: stay above
and upwind of his path. So far the worst wake turbulence I've
experienced is my own :) Sometimes I get lucky in a 360 turn and
hit my own wake ! (ps- my Mom says 'hello' to you and yours)
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
I'm afraid I dont know, but someone on the Piet mailing list
might. I am forwarding this email to them.
On 17 Aug 98 at 8:23, Dan Shotwell wrote:
> Richard, My name is Dan Shotwell. I'm building a Piet in my
> basement in Chatham, Ohio. Do you have the adress and /or phone
> number of the guy in Dillsburg, Pa who sells 4130 tubing and AN
> hardware? I think his business is called Dillsburg Aircraft Supply
> or something like that. Thanks, Dan You can also reach me at
> danshotwell(at)wellmanfrictionproducts.com or at 330-667-2915 after
> 6:00 PM.
>
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
- Henry Ford (1863-1947)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)bbt.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works is at (717) 432-4589. Prices are slightly
better than other places, and delivery was quick, but you'd better know
EXACTLY what you want (gauge numbers are not understood there, so convert
to decimal before ordering). The characterization someone made on the
list earlier of a "grumpy old man" is an understatement. Personally, I
would be tempted to pay the small premium and order from Wick's in the
future.
> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:24:15 +0000
> From: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
> Subject: Re: Sources of AN hardware.
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> MIME-version: 1.0
> Comments: Originally To: "Pietenpol Discussion"
> X-Listname:
>
> I'm afraid I dont know, but someone on the Piet mailing list
> might. I am forwarding this email to them.
>
> On 17 Aug 98 at 8:23, Dan Shotwell wrote:
>
> > Richard, My name is Dan Shotwell. I'm building a Piet in my
> > basement in Chatham, Ohio. Do you have the adress and /or phone
> > number of the guy in Dillsburg, Pa who sells 4130 tubing and AN
> > hardware? I think his business is called Dillsburg Aircraft Supply
> > or something like that. Thanks, Dan You can also reach me at
> > danshotwell(at)wellmanfrictionproducts.com or at 330-667-2915 after
> > 6:00 PM.
> >
> http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
> - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
>On 17 Aug 98 at 8:23, Dan Shotwell wrote:
>>> Richard, My name is Dan Shotwell. I'm building a Piet in my
>> basement in Chatham, Ohio. Do you have the adress and /or phone
>> number of the guy in Dillsburg, Pa who sells 4130 tubing and AN
>> hardware? I think his business is called Dillsburg Aircraft Supply
>> or something like that. Thanks, Dan You can also reach me at
>> danshotwell(at)wellmanfrictionproducts.com or at 330-667-2915 after
>> 6:00 PM.
Hey Dan ! Welcome to the list ! Dillsburg Aero 717-432-4589.
The Peit's finally flying and has it's restrictions flown off ! I'll buzz
you sometime. Mike C>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
>The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works is at (717) 432-4589. Prices are slightly
>better than other places, and delivery was quick, but you'd better know
>EXACTLY what you want (gauge numbers are not understood there, so
convertto decimal before ordering). The characterization someone made.
Bill- Right ! That was me. Charlie Volgesong is 80 years old and runs
Dillsburg. He is Mr. Business. No messing around- you have your list
and read it off to him and he ships it out pronto. He's not the Chamber
of Commerce at all. He is super knowledgeable about hardware and
aircraft though. He bikes about 100 miles a week too I'm told.
I've never had a screwed-up order from him either, but boy is he grumpy.
MC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)bbt.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
On my last complicated order, I didn't receive one piece I paid for. He
absolutely refused to believe that I hadn't gotten it (I had to go home
that night and check again), but after consulting a packing log, confirmed
that it hadn't been sent. No apologies, but sent it out that day.
> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:47:15 -0400
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> Subject: Re: Sources of AN hardware.
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> MIME-version: 1.0
> Comments: Originally To: "Pietenpol Discussion"
> X-Listname:
>
> >The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works is at (717) 432-4589. Prices are slightly
> >better than other places, and delivery was quick, but you'd better know
> >EXACTLY what you want (gauge numbers are not understood there, so
> convertto decimal before ordering). The characterization someone made.
>
> Bill- Right ! That was me. Charlie Volgesong is 80 years old and runs
> Dillsburg. He is Mr. Business. No messing around- you have your list
> and read it off to him and he ships it out pronto. He's not the Chamber
> of Commerce at all. He is super knowledgeable about hardware and
> aircraft though. He bikes about 100 miles a week too I'm told.
> I've never had a screwed-up order from him either, but boy is he grumpy.
> MC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
Anyone have rib jigs they want to sell???
I meet a gentlemen yesterday that has been working on a Piet project for 8
months and I told him about the group. He doesn't have access to net yet
(although he said this would be the best reason). He wanted me to ask if
anyone had jigs to sell, he might be interested...
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
Incredibly intuitive for a man that never knew flight, dont you
think?
> When once you have tasted flight, you will always walk with your
> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will
>
http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
- Henry Ford (1863-1947)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Downward slant to engine |
The nose down position of the engine is built in on purpose and is ca=
lled
"downthrust", and is usually combined with a couple of degrees of rig=
ht or
left thrust measured in degrees from the longitudinal centerline (ver=
tical
and horizontal)of the fuselage.=A0 Its purpose is two-fold.=A0 Right
or left
thrust is designed in to help compensate for the torque and p-factor
of a
propeller driven aircraft.=A0 It is set to compensate for forces on t=
he
aircraft in cruise configuration.=A0 Often the it is combined with a
coresponding offset of the vertical stabilizer.=A0 Down thrust is set=
for a
similar reason, but specifically to counter pitching moment differenc=
es
between full power and idle conditions.=A0 Downthrust has a the effec=
t of
helping the prop disk to be more inline with the relative wind during=
climb,
and cruise for better prop efficiency.=A0
=A0
=A0
Hope this helps.
=A0
STevee
-----Original Message-----
f Sanford
"Sandy" Love
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:19 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Downward slant to engine
Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to the e=
ngine?
Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What would hap=
pen if
the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
=A0
Any help would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
I think someone is getting the emphasis placed wrong! My understanding
is that the first thing to do is make it safe not fast. If we continue
to promote the speed aspect, we should be encouraging people to buy
their planes, not build them. The person that builds them should
remember that it is their butt that is hanging out up there. What about
the guy that maybe ends up test flighting the bird. Is he aware that it
was a speed contest?
Time for a reality check on what the EAA stands for and the intent of
being allowed to build and fly a personal craft. Too many shows based on
the wrong principles can lead to tighter restictions for the rest of us.
We should be discouraging, not ecouraging such behaviour.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <CARDIGJ(at)mail.startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
Dillsburg has very good prices on steel. Wicks has better pricing on
cable.
For AN hardware try:
B&B Aircraft Supplies
31905 W. 175th St.
Gardner Municipal Airport
He gets surplus hardware so his stock is erratic but he has good
pricing.
Aircraft Spruce has surprisingly good prices on AN hardware,
especially when purchasing in volume.
Greg Cardinal
>>> "William C. Beerman" 08/17 6:32 AM >>>
The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works is at (717) 432-4589. Prices are
slightly
better than other places, and delivery was quick, but you'd better
know
EXACTLY what you want (gauge numbers are not understood there, so
convert
to decimal before ordering). The characterization someone made on the
list earlier of a "grumpy old man" is an understatement. Personally,
I
would be tempted to pay the small premium and order from Wick's in
the
future.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dbs(at)fscvax.wvnet.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
Dillsburgh Aeroplane Works (717) 432-4589. Charlie Vogelson will be more than
glsd to help with your needs. Prompt service, good quality. Raw material prices
are good, you can do better on hardware if you are a good scrounger.
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I'm afraid I dont know, but someone on the Piet mailing list
> might. I am forwarding this email to them.
>
> On 17 Aug 98 at 8:23, Dan Shotwell wrote:
>
> > Richard, My name is Dan Shotwell. I'm building a Piet in my
> > basement in Chatham, Ohio. Do you have the adress and /or phone
> > number of the guy in Dillsburg, Pa who sells 4130 tubing and AN
> > hardware? I think his business is called Dillsburg Aircraft Supply
> > or something like that. Thanks, Dan You can also reach me at
> > danshotwell(at)wellmanfrictionproducts.com or at 330-667-2915 after
> > 6:00 PM.
> >
> http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
> "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
> - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
--
David B.Schober, CPE
Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
Fairmont State College
National Aerospace Education Center
Rt. 3 Box 13
Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
(304) 842-8300
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
Spencer Aircraft in Seattle has AN hardware. 800-424-1160. Lots of
aircraft stuff, but no steel tubing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 5:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sources of AN hardware.
>>On 17 Aug 98 at 8:23, Dan Shotwell wrote:
>>>> Richard, My name is Dan Shotwell. I'm building a Piet in my
>>> basement in Chatham, Ohio. Do you have the adress and /or phone
>>> number of the guy in Dillsburg, Pa who sells 4130 tubing and AN
>>> hardware? I think his business is called Dillsburg Aircraft Supply
>>> or something like that. Thanks, Dan You can also reach me at
>>> danshotwell(at)wellmanfrictionproducts.com or at 330-667-2915 after
>>> 6:00 PM.
>
>Hey Dan ! Welcome to the list ! Dillsburg Aero 717-432-4589.
>The Peit's finally flying and has it's restrictions flown off ! I'll buzz
>you sometime. Mike C>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joe czaplicki <fishin(at)pop.wwa.com> |
Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
system that's adaptable to the Piet?
I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the
building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.
Thanks for any input.
Joe C
Zion, Ill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> |
joe czaplicki wrote:
>
> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
> system that's adaptable to the Piet?
> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the
> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.
> Thanks for any input.
> Joe C
> Zion, Ill
Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long
with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think
with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates
on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some
pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics
will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe
someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty
cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........
Lee in MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
--I don't really remember what i paid for hemlock, but it seems that it was about
1/3 the price of a/c spruce, and about the same as doug fir.
I'm the last guy who should critisize the use of d/f however. It has been used
successfully in lots of airplanes.
from my reading, it has been said that this wood (d/f) does shatter rather easily.
in my work with 1/4 by 1/4 capstrip i found that to be true.
My problem with fir was splits along the grain between the red and white grain
lines.Also it chipped easily.
I then switched to hand selected stright grain (western)hemlock, and was very satisfyed
with the result.
later, just to see what a/c sitka spruce was like, i purchased some vary fine boat
grade sitka spruce. it was a very nice wood, and but for price i would use
that. W. hemlock was very close in bending strength, and cutting quality to the
spruce, so i used that.
lastly, from my reading, w. hemlock is only 10% heavier than spruce, while having
equal or slightly greater strength.
no more than 1:15 grain slope
no pitch or bark pockets
no swirrls
only tiny nots...i say no knots
NO...fine white lines across grain !!
and lastly, 1/4 sawn + or minus 45degrees, with no less than 6 annular rings per
inch.
A very good book to read is EAA aircraft building techniques in wood. or something
like that.
oil can bob
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:19:22 Greg Yotz wrote:
>What did you pay for you Hemlock???? What parts did you find DF unsatisfactory
for?
>
>Greg Yotz...
>
>oil can wrote:
>
>> --Oil Can here,...wading through 198 e-mails.
>>
>> About doug fir. When I started my "ace", I started out with fir, but soon found
that it split really easy. I then bought some beautifull stright grain hemlock,
and found that wood to be most satisfactory.. My 1/4 by 1/4 cap strips
cut and bent with no splits, and gussets nailed down just fine with the use of
a #65 pilot drill.
>>
>> I later bought some very fine boat grade spruce for use as compression struts,
and found spruce to be an excellent material. Just dammed expensive!
>>
>> My ribs are now finished, and am working on setting up a wing jig. For spars
I will seriously consider 3 woods -- boat grade spruce, western hemlock, and
doug fir.
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:30:07 Greg Yotz wrote:
>> >Has anyone used Douglas Fur in a Piet???
>> >I was looking at using it for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers
>> >and possibly the ailerons.
>> >I have found some very good building quality d/f at less than half the
>> >cost of spruce. (hard wood flooring)
>> >I know it is heavier but with my choice of engine it will actually make
>> >CG better for me.
>> >Anyway if anyone has comments please respond..
>> >
>> >
>> >Thanks...
>> >
>> >Greg Yotz
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> http://www.mailexcite.com
>
>
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Downward slant to engine |
Is it needed on the Piet? Will there be a problem if I don't have it?
-----Original Message-----
From: steve(at)byu.edu
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: Downward slant to engine
The nose down position of the engine is built in on purpose and is
called "downthrust", and is usually combined with a couple of degrees of
right or left thrust measured in degrees from the longitudinal
centerline (vertical and horizontal)of the fuselage. Its purpose is
two-fold. Right or left thrust is designed in to help compensate for
the torque and p-factor of a propeller driven aircraft. It is set to
compensate for forces on the aircraft in cruise configuration. Often
the it is combined with a coresponding offset of the vertical
stabilizer. Down thrust is set for a similar reason, but specifically
to counter pitching moment differences between full power and idle
conditions. Downthrust has a the effect of helping the prop disk to be
more inline with the relative wind during climb, and cruise for better
prop efficiency.
Hope this helps.
STevee
Behalf Of Sanford "Sandy" Love
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:19 AM
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Subject: Downward slant to engine
Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to
the engine? Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What
would happen if the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
Any help would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
Lee,
How about sending a copy of those photos to Richard DeCosta so he can post
them on his web site? I'd sure like to see them.
Brent Reed
Kent, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee L. Schiek <concrete(at)qtm.net>
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:54 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
>joe czaplicki wrote:
>>
>> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?
>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at
the
>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.
>> Thanks for any input.
>> Joe C
>> Zion, Ill
>
>
>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long
>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think
>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates
>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some
>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics
>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe
>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty
>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........
>
>
>Lee in MI
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joe czaplicki <fishin(at)pop.wwa.com> |
Hi Lee; I'd sure appreciate any prints or negatives you might send. my
address is 1915 Gideon Ave., Zion, Ill, 60099
Thnx
Joe C
>Lee,
>
>How about sending a copy of those photos to Richard DeCosta so he can post
>them on his web site? I'd sure like to see them.
>
>Brent Reed
>Kent, WA
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lee L. Schiek <concrete(at)qtm.net>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:54 PM
>Subject: Re: trim
>
>
>>joe czaplicki wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
>>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?
>>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at
>the
>>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.
>>> Thanks for any input.
>>> Joe C
>>> Zion, Ill
>>
>>
>>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long
>>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think
>>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates
>>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some
>>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics
>>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe
>>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty
>>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........
>>
>>
>>Lee in MI
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joe czaplicki <fishin(at)pop.wwa.com> |
Hi Lee;; I'd sure appreciate any prints or negatives you're able to send. My
address is 1915 Gideon Ave., Zion, Ill 60099.
Thnx Agian
Joe C
Zion, Ill
>joe czaplicki wrote:
>>
>> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?
>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the
>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.
>> Thanks for any input.
>> Joe C
>> Zion, Ill
>
>
>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long
>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think
>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates
>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some
>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics
>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe
>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty
>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........
>
>
>Lee in MI
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I think I liked John Fahey's trim better. It was simple.
He had a friction wheel with cable / bungie / cable in
series
which was connected then to the elevator bell crank in the
fuselage.
--
/--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
|scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
by EMAIL1.BYU.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #U3118)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:50:58 -0700
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> |
MTS v1.43 (NDS)) (via Mercury MTS v1.43 (NDS)) (via Mercury MTS v1.43 (NDS))
joe czaplicki wrote:
>
> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
> system that's adaptable to the Piet?
> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the
> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.
> Thanks for any input.
> Joe C
> Zion, Ill
Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long
with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think
with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates
on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some
pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics
will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe
someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty
cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........
Lee in MI
title: Design Engineer
tel;work: 309-672-7706
tel;fax: 309-672-7753
tel;home: not posted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kathryn McDonald <mcdonald(at)ca.ibm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources of AN hardware. |
Hi
I seem to have been added to this dissussion list by accident and my E-=
mail is
getting flooded. Simultaniously I've been added to a distribution list=
called
blue birds and suspect the two are related. Can you please let me know=
how to
get off these lists? Thanks
I have 2 Id's mcdonald(at)ca.ibm.com and kathryn.mcdonald(at)tivoli.com
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Sources of AN hardware. |
Someone is forwarding you this email. You are not on our list, with either
of the addresses that you have sent me.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
Kathryn McDonald
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 11:03 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sources of AN hardware.
Hi
I seem to have been added to this dissussion list by accident and my E-mail
is
getting flooded. Simultaniously I've been added to a distribution list
called
blue birds and suspect the two are related. Can you please let me know how
to
get off these lists? Thanks
I have 2 Id's mcdonald(at)ca.ibm.com and kathryn.mcdonald(at)tivoli.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Downward slant to engine |
Yes,=A0 The plans show the model A with an inch or so of downthrust.=
=A0 Not sure
what degree it turns out to be, but that is why it is there.=A0 Witho=
ut it you
can expect poorer climb performance and a larger degree of nose drop
as
power is reduced to idle.
=A0
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
f Sanford
Love
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 8:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Downward slant to engine
Is it needed on the Piet? Will there be a problem if I don't have it?
=A0
-----Original Message-----
=46rom: steve(at)byu.edu < steve(at)byu.edu>
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:18 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Downward slant to engine
The nose down position of the engine is built in on purpose and is ca=
lled
"downthrust", and is usually combined with a couple of degrees of rig=
ht or
left thrust measured in degrees from the longitudinal centerline (ver=
tical
and horizontal)of the fuselage.=A0 Its purpose is two-fold.=A0 Right
or left
thrust is designed in to help compensate for the torque and p-factor
of a
propeller driven aircraft.=A0 It is set to compensate for forces on t=
he
aircraft in cruise configuration.=A0 Often the it is combined with a
coresponding offset of the vertical stabilizer.=A0 Down thrust is set=
for a
similar reason, but specifically to counter pitching moment differenc=
es
between full power and idle conditions.=A0 Downthrust has a the effec=
t of
helping the prop disk to be more inline with the relative wind during=
climb,
and cruise for better prop efficiency.=A0
=A0
=A0
Hope this helps.
=A0
STevee
-----Original Message-----
f Sanford
"Sandy" Love
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:19 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Downward slant to engine
Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to the e=
ngine?
Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What would hap=
pen if
the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
=A0
Any help would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
Last time I wrote, I was looking at drawings of the Sky Scout, with ideas
about using an A75 for power. My spouse caught me studying those drawings and
said something to the effect that "Wait a minute! There's only one seat!"
End of consideration. Ergo, I'm working on my long delayed AirCamper, to be
powered by the self-same A75. I've now glued up the rudder, and if I do say
so myself, it don't look bad...at least for a first effort at aircraft
cabinetry..
Now for the poser. Given that BP designed a good airfoil for the AirCamper,
there have been advances in aerodynamics, and I have to wonder about using a
bit more modern airfoil...the 4412 comes easily to mind. Has anyone any
actual experience with this? Is there some great advantage to using the
modified Eiffel, or is there some great disadvantage to using the 4412. It
seems that I might get a little more lift and a tad more speed from the 4412,
but I am not an engineer. While I appreciate the purist philosophy, and
intend to stick closely to plans, (BP 1933), I think it's appropriate to
explore some minor changes to make minor improvements in performance and or
utility. I'd sure appreciate input from the group. Thanx!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
--I don't know how much the jeep engine weighs, but I have seen both. The 134L
jeep is an honest 1/3 shorter than the model "a", and since both have about the
same throw, they are both as tall.
High compression heads are also available, and if cast from aluminium, that would
take even more weight off.
Another item I learned is that both front and rear mains are the same length, so
a propeller could be mounted from either end, which ever is the easiest.
As for availability, they made them by the million during ww11, and according to
my brother in law...a long time engine professional, the jeep engine is very
easy to come by, as are parts.
oil can bob
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:09:21 Steve W wrote:
>Steve wrote:
>Parts? How much does it weigh compaires to the "A" and how easy is it to
>find.
>
>Steve
>
>
>oil can wrote:
>>
>> Jeep engines, jeep engines, jeep engines.
>>
>> Geez...can't I talk about anything else! I'm finding out more stuff all the
time. And things are looking pretty good.
>>
>> First off, (according to my brother in law's brother) the front and rear main
bearings on the 134 cid jeep engine are both the same length, 2-3/4 inches.
This vs the rear main of the model "A" of around 3 inches.
>>
>> Also the crank is (I dont have my book handy) about
>> 2-5/8 in diameter at the mains, vs about 1-1/2 for the model"A". So the total
surface area of the jeep crank at the mains should be considerably greater.
>>
>> Next, the bearings themselves are of modern design, not the babbot style of
the old ford.
>>
>> Jeep has an oil pump, so pressure to the bearings.
>>
>> The crank is statically, and dinamically ballanced for smoother running. A civilian
crank is also available which fits, and is even smoother running.
>>
>> compression ratio is 6:1 with heads available for up to 9:1.
>>
>> >From my reading (Piet web page)experiments have been done to boost the power
of the ford "A". new pistons, carbs, cam gring, modern bearings, etc.
>> It seems that with the jeep engine, most of this has been done at the factory.
And if a fellow was in search of more power, he could up the rpm, install the
recommended Jeep "power Carb", maybe do a cam grind, and install headers.
>>
>>
>> Lastly,at 2000 rpm, with 105 ft*lbs of torque already, a small increase in
rpm to maybe 2500 (max rpm stated for this engine is 4000) along with the additions
already mentioned, one could probably raise the torque of this engine up
to match that of the continental c-65 which is .....125 ft*lbs, I think??
>>
>> At any rate, I've still at least 1-1/2 years left to build my plane so there
is much time to think about it.
>> The jeep engine is looking better and better all the time.
>>
>> OiL Can Bob
>>
>> http://www.mailexcite.com
>
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Perhaps my comment has been taken wrong here-I had no intention of
promoting or glorifying " fast " Building- I expect that a thousand
hours or so is probably how long it taked the AVERAGE builder- I know
guys that have been building airplanes for 50 years or so that- one in
particular that I am sure builds in about that amount of time-mostly
this is a matter of experience and efficiency-not rushing or a lack of
attention to detail- Said gentleman recently retired from airplane
building and built most of his planes in the last 25 years on a Social
Security check ( or flying machine check as he likes to call it )I
seriously doubt that he ever spent 2500 or over 6-700 hours on
anything he built in the last quarter century or so. I would trust my
life with Anything crafted by him
That said- I was giving the builder in question the benifit of the
doubt- that he Is A fien and efficient craftsman. Not everyone is
plane crazy!
Paris
---Ian Holland wrote:
>
> I think someone is getting the emphasis placed wrong! My understanding
> is that the first thing to do is make it safe not fast. If we continue
> to promote the speed aspect, we should be encouraging people to buy
> their planes, not build them. The person that builds them should
> remember that it is their butt that is hanging out up there. What
about
> the guy that maybe ends up test flighting the bird. Is he aware that
it
> was a speed contest?
>
> Time for a reality check on what the EAA stands for and the intent of
> being allowed to build and fly a personal craft. Too many shows
based on
> the wrong principles can lead to tighter restictions for the rest of
us.
> We should be discouraging, not ecouraging such behaviour.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
To Oil Can Bob And the rest
The jeep engine has a smaller bore than the Model A. The A is 200.5 cu. In.
stock. "There ain't no replacement for displacement!"
I won't say that it can't be done; but look around to see if you can find a
torque curve for the Jeep and compare it to the Model A. The A produces max
torque at a low rpm. (1000) This allows it to swing a large diameter prop.
The Jeep may wel have the same Horsepower but I'll bet it is at a higher
rpm.
John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Downward slant to engine |
How Does One go about figuring this out with a different engine- I am
using a corvair- and naturally I want this to be absolutely right the
first time!
paris
---steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
>
> Yes,=A0 The plans show the model A with an inch or so of downthrust=
.=A0
Not sure
> what degree it turns out to be, but that is why it is there.=A0
Without it you
> can expect poorer climb performance and a larger degree of nose dro=
p
as
> power is reduced to idle.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
f
Sanford
> Love
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 8:13 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> Is it needed on the Piet? Will there be a problem if I don't have i=
t?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve(at)byu.edu < steve(at)byu.edu>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion < piet(at)byu.edu>
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:18 AM
> Subject: RE: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> The nose down position of the engine is built in on purpose and is
called
> "downthrust", and is usually combined with a couple of degrees of
right or
> left thrust measured in degrees from the longitudinal centerline
(vertical
> and horizontal)of the fuselage.=A0 Its purpose is two-fold.=A0 Righ=
t or
left
> thrust is designed in to help compensate for the torque and p-facto=
r
of a
> propeller driven aircraft.=A0 It is set to compensate for forces on=
the
> aircraft in cruise configuration.=A0 Often the it is combined with
a
> coresponding offset of the vertical stabilizer.=A0 Down thrust is s=
et
for a
> similar reason, but specifically to counter pitching moment
differences
> between full power and idle conditions.=A0 Downthrust has a the eff=
ect
of
> helping the prop disk to be more inline with the relative wind
during climb,
> and cruise for better prop efficiency.=A0
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> STevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
f
Sanford
> "Sandy" Love
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:19 AM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to the
engine?
> Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What would
happen if
> the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I talked with Don Pietenpol and he said his father could build a pietenpol
in six weeks.
-=Ron=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
| Subject: | Chad Willie Plans |
Has anyone built a 'Pietenpol Aerial' aka the Biplane Pietenpol??? I
bought a set of used planes from a guy yesterday.... It's interesting
but I'll stick to the good 'ol original Piet...
I was just wondering if anyone had any experience or new of any picts on
the web of a 'Pietenpol Aerial'?
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Anderson <kcande19(at)IDT.NET> |
Lee L. Schiek wrote:
> joe czaplicki wrote:
> >
> > Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim
> > system that's adaptable to the Piet?
>
>
> Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long
> with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost -
I also saw that setup at Broadhead. Talked with the owner who said he got the
idea from a similar setup that Taylorcraft had used on some aircraft. He said
that it worked ok in cruise.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
I spoke with Harry Riblett at OshKosh this year at he says the airfoil
on the Piet has a sharp stall characteristic. By this, he is meaning
that there is very little burble transistion from being attached air
flow to the stalled un-attached air flow. He scared me a little
by stating he knew of one person who had stall-spun in
a piet, survived unscathed, and proceded to do it a second time. I
assumed he survived since he said he did not indicate otherwise.
He recommended to me an airfoil in his book, GA Aifoils, the number
of which I think was 30615 or 15630 or something like it (my notes are
at home). When I plotted a 60 inch chord based on this airfoil, and
compared it to the Piet airfoil, the trailing edge top surface for the
last 12 inches or so is the same, the top surface for the leading edge
for the first 6 inches or so is the same, but the remaining portion
is much different. The top surface is 2 inches higher and the
lower surface is about 2 inches lower at the thickest portion (yes,
the thickness is about 9 inches verses the Piet at 5 inches). A little
aggressive to making it a replacement. Center of lift, lift
coefficent, L/D ratio, etc... comparisons to Piet are a little
difficult without having the data for the Piet airfoil. I believe
this project stems into new design. A test pilot I am not.
His book is very infomative with insites to airfoil design, so the
purchase was not a waste. It runs about $17 for it from EAA.
I spoke with Warren Wiggett who drove to Broadhead this year and
he had modified his Piet, which first flew in July I think, with
advise he received from Harry. His modification was to add
thickness to the leading edge between the 3inch to 12 inch area
of about 1/4 inch and also to the lower edge in the 2inch to 5 inch
area of about 1/8 inch. He did so with plywood sheeting and
says that the test pilot "felt" that there was some improvement
in takeoff performance, and said his cruise was about 70mph.
I believe there may be better knowledge of airfoils today, Harry
being a very good, general aviation supporter who has such
expertise, which could be applied to the Piet design.
"Modifications - The Bad And The Ugly" at OshKosh
this year (different aero-nut engineer guy) told me that any
modification has potential to change any and every other
characteristic of the airplane, making it a fully un-tested,
possible killing machine. He had very few examples, but
none the less scary enough to leave an impression.
His basic premise was - if not broke, don't fix it.
ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
> Last time I wrote, I was looking at drawings of the Sky Scout, with ideas
> about using an A75 for power. My spouse caught me studying those drawings and
> said something to the effect that "Wait a minute! There's only one seat!"
> End of consideration. Ergo, I'm working on my long delayed AirCamper, to be
> powered by the self-same A75. I've now glued up the rudder, and if I do say
> so myself, it don't look bad...at least for a first effort at aircraft
> cabinetry..
>
> Now for the poser. Given that BP designed a good airfoil for the AirCamper,
> there have been advances in aerodynamics, and I have to wonder about using a
> bit more modern airfoil...the 4412 comes easily to mind. Has anyone any
> actual experience with this? Is there some great advantage to using the
> modified Eiffel, or is there some great disadvantage to using the 4412. It
> seems that I might get a little more lift and a tad more speed from the 4412,
> but I am not an engineer. While I appreciate the purist philosophy, and
> intend to stick closely to plans, (BP 1933), I think it's appropriate to
> explore some minor changes to make minor improvements in performance and or
> utility. I'd sure appreciate input from the group. Thanx!
>
--
/--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
|scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
title: Design Engineer
tel;work: 309-672-7706
tel;fax: 309-672-7753
tel;home: not posted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dbs(at)fscvax.wvnet.edu> |
If you want to compare the Piet airtfoil to others you need to get data on the
Piet
airfoil. You can try to get Dr. Patrick Hanley to run the coordinates thru his
Visual Airfoil program. He ran another airfoil (the one on my Howard DGA) and was
very helpful. His E-Mail is hanley(at)hanleyinnovations.com
I've seen Piets with different airfoils and never saw any real improvement. Of
all
the Piets I've flown (one "A", one corvair and one A-65) all had the original
airfoil and none had bad stall charicteristics. All were a blast to fly! The "A"
was
the best!
David Scott wrote:
> I spoke with Harry Riblett at OshKosh this year at he says the airfoil
> on the Piet has a sharp stall characteristic. By this, he is meaning
> that there is very little burble transistion from being attached air
> flow to the stalled un-attached air flow. He scared me a little
> by stating he knew of one person who had stall-spun in
> a piet, survived unscathed, and proceded to do it a second time. I
> assumed he survived since he said he did not indicate otherwise.
>
> He recommended to me an airfoil in his book, GA Aifoils, the number
> of which I think was 30615 or 15630 or something like it (my notes are
> at home). When I plotted a 60 inch chord based on this airfoil, and
> compared it to the Piet airfoil, the trailing edge top surface for the
> last 12 inches or so is the same, the top surface for the leading edge
> for the first 6 inches or so is the same, but the remaining portion
> is much different. The top surface is 2 inches higher and the
> lower surface is about 2 inches lower at the thickest portion (yes,
> the thickness is about 9 inches verses the Piet at 5 inches). A little
> aggressive to making it a replacement. Center of lift, lift
> coefficent, L/D ratio, etc... comparisons to Piet are a little
> difficult without having the data for the Piet airfoil. I believe
> this project stems into new design. A test pilot I am not.
>
> His book is very infomative with insites to airfoil design, so the
> purchase was not a waste. It runs about $17 for it from EAA.
>
> I spoke with Warren Wiggett who drove to Broadhead this year and
> he had modified his Piet, which first flew in July I think, with
> advise he received from Harry. His modification was to add
> thickness to the leading edge between the 3inch to 12 inch area
> of about 1/4 inch and also to the lower edge in the 2inch to 5 inch
> area of about 1/8 inch. He did so with plywood sheeting and
> says that the test pilot "felt" that there was some improvement
> in takeoff performance, and said his cruise was about 70mph.
>
> I believe there may be better knowledge of airfoils today, Harry
> being a very good, general aviation supporter who has such
> expertise, which could be applied to the Piet design.
>
> "Modifications - The Bad And The Ugly" at OshKosh
> this year (different aero-nut engineer guy) told me that any
> modification has potential to change any and every other
> characteristic of the airplane, making it a fully un-tested,
> possible killing machine. He had very few examples, but
> none the less scary enough to leave an impression.
>
> His basic premise was - if not broke, don't fix it.
>
> ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > Last time I wrote, I was looking at drawings of the Sky Scout, with ideas
> > about using an A75 for power. My spouse caught me studying those drawings
and
> > said something to the effect that "Wait a minute! There's only one seat!"
> > End of consideration. Ergo, I'm working on my long delayed AirCamper, to be
> > powered by the self-same A75. I've now glued up the rudder, and if I do say
> > so myself, it don't look bad...at least for a first effort at aircraft
> > cabinetry..
> >
> > Now for the poser. Given that BP designed a good airfoil for the AirCamper,
> > there have been advances in aerodynamics, and I have to wonder about using
a
> > bit more modern airfoil...the 4412 comes easily to mind. Has anyone any
> > actual experience with this? Is there some great advantage to using the
> > modified Eiffel, or is there some great disadvantage to using the 4412. It
> > seems that I might get a little more lift and a tad more speed from the 4412,
> > but I am not an engineer. While I appreciate the purist philosophy, and
> > intend to stick closely to plans, (BP 1933), I think it's appropriate to
> > explore some minor changes to make minor improvements in performance and or
> > utility. I'd sure appreciate input from the group. Thanx!
> >
>
> --
> /--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> David Scott
> Design Engineer
> Komatsu Mining Systems
>
> David Scott
> Design Engineer
> Komatsu Mining Systems
> 2300 NE Adams St Work: 309-672-7706
> U.S.A.
> Additional Information:
> Last Name Scott
> First Name David
> Version 2.1
--
David B.Schober, CPE
Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
Fairmont State College
National Aerospace Education Center
Rt. 3 Box 13
Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
(304) 842-8300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)iinet.com> |
Maybe A little wash out in each wing tip would help to keep the entire wing
from stalling out at the same time ?
>If you want to compare the Piet airtfoil to others you need to get data on
the Piet
>airfoil. You can try to get Dr. Patrick Hanley to run the coordinates thru
his
>Visual Airfoil program. He ran another airfoil (the one on my Howard DGA)
and was
>very helpful. His E-Mail is hanley(at)hanleyinnovations.com
>
>I've seen Piets with different airfoils and never saw any real improvement.
Of all
>the Piets I've flown (one "A", one corvair and one A-65) all had the
original
>airfoil and none had bad stall charicteristics. All were a blast to fly!
The "A" was
>the best!
>
>David Scott wrote:
>
>> I spoke with Harry Riblett at OshKosh this year at he says the airfoil
>> on the Piet has a sharp stall characteristic. By this, he is meaning
>> that there is very little burble transistion from being attached air
>> flow to the stalled un-attached air flow. He scared me a little
>> by stating he knew of one person who had stall-spun in
>> a piet, survived unscathed, and proceded to do it a second time. I
>> assumed he survived since he said he did not indicate otherwise.
>>
>> He recommended to me an airfoil in his book, GA Aifoils, the number
>> of which I think was 30615 or 15630 or something like it (my notes are
>> at home). When I plotted a 60 inch chord based on this airfoil, and
>> compared it to the Piet airfoil, the trailing edge top surface for the
>> last 12 inches or so is the same, the top surface for the leading edge
>> for the first 6 inches or so is the same, but the remaining portion
>> is much different. The top surface is 2 inches higher and the
>> lower surface is about 2 inches lower at the thickest portion (yes,
>> the thickness is about 9 inches verses the Piet at 5 inches). A little
>> aggressive to making it a replacement. Center of lift, lift
>> coefficent, L/D ratio, etc... comparisons to Piet are a little
>> difficult without having the data for the Piet airfoil. I believe
>> this project stems into new design. A test pilot I am not.
>>
>> His book is very infomative with insites to airfoil design, so the
>> purchase was not a waste. It runs about $17 for it from EAA.
>>
>> I spoke with Warren Wiggett who drove to Broadhead this year and
>> he had modified his Piet, which first flew in July I think, with
>> advise he received from Harry. His modification was to add
>> thickness to the leading edge between the 3inch to 12 inch area
>> of about 1/4 inch and also to the lower edge in the 2inch to 5 inch
>> area of about 1/8 inch. He did so with plywood sheeting and
>> says that the test pilot "felt" that there was some improvement
>> in takeoff performance, and said his cruise was about 70mph.
>>
>> I believe there may be better knowledge of airfoils today, Harry
>> being a very good, general aviation supporter who has such
>> expertise, which could be applied to the Piet design.
>>
>> "Modifications - The Bad And The Ugly" at OshKosh
>> this year (different aero-nut engineer guy) told me that any
>> modification has potential to change any and every other
>> characteristic of the airplane, making it a fully un-tested,
>> possible killing machine. He had very few examples, but
>> none the less scary enough to leave an impression.
>>
>> His basic premise was - if not broke, don't fix it.
>>
>> ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > Last time I wrote, I was looking at drawings of the Sky Scout, with
ideas
>> > about using an A75 for power. My spouse caught me studying those
drawings and
>> > said something to the effect that "Wait a minute! There's only one
seat!"
>> > End of consideration. Ergo, I'm working on my long delayed AirCamper,
to be
>> > powered by the self-same A75. I've now glued up the rudder, and if I
do say
>> > so myself, it don't look bad...at least for a first effort at aircraft
>> > cabinetry..
>> >
>> > Now for the poser. Given that BP designed a good airfoil for the
AirCamper,
>> > there have been advances in aerodynamics, and I have to wonder about
using a
>> > bit more modern airfoil...the 4412 comes easily to mind. Has anyone
any
>> > actual experience with this? Is there some great advantage to using
the
>> > modified Eiffel, or is there some great disadvantage to using the 4412.
It
>> > seems that I might get a little more lift and a tad more speed from the
4412,
>> > but I am not an engineer. While I appreciate the purist philosophy,
and
>> > intend to stick closely to plans, (BP 1933), I think it's appropriate
to
>> > explore some minor changes to make minor improvements in performance
and or
>> > utility. I'd sure appreciate input from the group. Thanx!
>> >
>> >
ADonJr(at)AOL.com
>>
>> --
>> /--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
>> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>>
>> David Scott
>> Design Engineer
>> Komatsu Mining Systems
>>
>> David Scott
>> Design Engineer
>> Komatsu Mining Systems
>> 2300 NE Adams St Work: 309-672-7706
>> U.S.A.
>> Additional Information:
>> Last Name Scott
>> First Name David
>> Version 2.1
>
>
>--
>
**
>David B.Schober, CPE
>Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
>Fairmont State College
>National Aerospace Education Center
>Rt. 3 Box 13
>Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
>(304) 842-8300
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Airfoil/Stall Characteristics |
The stall characteristics I have experienced in my 65 Continental powered
Air Camper have been very typical of the Cub/Champ stall- with the
exception that the Piet stalls at even a lower speed- in my case 30 mph.
I put 3/8" washout in the wingtips using adjustable rear fork ends- this
allows the ailerons to stall last which gives full control up to the break.
Pietenpol suggested doing this just like they do in Cubs and Champs.
The worst problem is left or right drop-off during the stall- I had this
condition and neede to tweak the rear struts until she fell straight ahead.
My ribs are to the plans and the covering is the light 1.7 oz dacron.
This plane outclimbs any Cub or Champ on the field by the time you
get to the wires when alone, and accordingly more sluggish with two
adults and full fuel, but still respectable. Try to build your wings straight
and true and keep the airframe light and you will get 1940's performance
from a 1929 design ! Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airfoil/Stall Characteristics |
Wonderful review from the guy who has actually "done it" Thanks once again
Michael.
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> |
I have my Pietenpol for sale. It has a 1.9 L Ford Escort engine, approx.
80 h.p., 2.5 to 1 reduction, Hegy 74-60 prop, straight axle, mechanical
brakes, one piece wing, cub-yellow wing and tail area, blue fuselage, 50
TT, very clean, well built airplane, 400+ ft per minute at 4880' local
altitude, cruise 75-80. I love building and am ready to start another
project. Can include current condition inspection. I will take any
reasonable offer that covers cost of materials. E-mail or call 208-356-381=
9.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
| Subject: | Hinges on Empennage |
I'm getting ready to make/buy hinges for the elevator and rudder. I was
wondering if anyone had any suggestions before I spent the time building
the 36 or so parts.
Also did everyone use #8 aircraft hardware with a washer to hold these
on?
Did anybody just make the control hornes out of heavier gauge ac
aluminum instead of the airdynamic weldment the plans show?
thanks,
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Chad Willie Plans |
I have the plans, but haven't seen much other than Willies prototype photos.
I think it looks cool, but underdesigned with regard to the interplane
bracing, and wiring.
Stevee.
-----Original Message-----
Greg Yotz
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 9:29 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Chad Willie Plans
Has anyone built a 'Pietenpol Aerial' aka the Biplane Pietenpol??? I
bought a set of used planes from a guy yesterday.... It's interesting
but I'll stick to the good 'ol original Piet...
I was just wondering if anyone had any experience or new of any picts on
the web of a 'Pietenpol Aerial'?
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wittman Tailwind List |
I have just decided that my next scratchbuilt project will be a Tailwind.
Anyone here have experience with this plane? I know that several Piet
builders have gone on to build Tailwinds (Dick Alkire for one.) I am going
to start a new list for Tailwinds. Anyone interested in an early
subscription? I promise ground floor spot will be cheap! :)
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Downward slant to engine |
Not sure how to figure it, but I know that it is usually between 1 an=
d 3
degrees. If you need to you can always shim the mount to engine atta=
ch
bolts with large washers.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
f
Paris Wilcox
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 7:08 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Downward slant to engine
How Does One go about figuring this out with a different engine- I am
using a corvair- and naturally I want this to be absolutely right the
first time!
paris
---steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
>
> Yes,=A0 The plans show the model A with an inch or so of downthrust=
.=A0
Not sure
> what degree it turns out to be, but that is why it is there.=A0
Without it you
> can expect poorer climb performance and a larger degree of nose dro=
p
as
> power is reduced to idle.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
f
Sanford
> Love
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 8:13 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> Is it needed on the Piet? Will there be a problem if I don't have i=
t?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve(at)byu.edu < steve(at)byu.edu>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion < piet(at)byu.edu>
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:18 AM
> Subject: RE: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> The nose down position of the engine is built in on purpose and is
called
> "downthrust", and is usually combined with a couple of degrees of
right or
> left thrust measured in degrees from the longitudinal centerline
(vertical
> and horizontal)of the fuselage.=A0 Its purpose is two-fold.=A0 Righ=
t or
left
> thrust is designed in to help compensate for the torque and p-facto=
r
of a
> propeller driven aircraft.=A0 It is set to compensate for forces on=
the
> aircraft in cruise configuration.=A0 Often the it is combined with
a
> coresponding offset of the vertical stabilizer.=A0 Down thrust is s=
et
for a
> similar reason, but specifically to counter pitching moment
differences
> between full power and idle conditions.=A0 Downthrust has a the eff=
ect
of
> helping the prop disk to be more inline with the relative wind
during climb,
> and cruise for better prop efficiency.=A0
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> STevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
f
Sanford
> "Sandy" Love
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:19 AM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to the
engine?
> Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What would
happen if
> the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I have a rib jig that I would be willing to part with. It has been used for
two sets of ribs. Drop me a line @ Steve(at)byu.edu
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
Greg Yotz
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 8:04 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib Jigs
Anyone have rib jigs they want to sell???
I meet a gentlemen yesterday that has been working on a Piet project for 8
months and I told him about the group. He doesn't have access to net yet
(although he said this would be the best reason). He wanted me to ask if
anyone had jigs to sell, he might be interested...
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Great idea! Please sign me right up.
The plans are here cluttering up my office (right next to
the Pietenpol plans, and the shop is finally getting to the
point where I can hope someday to work in it.
Of course, now that I'm almost ready to start on my
Tailwind (or my Piet), it looks like we're going to sell the
house. So it goes...
Thanks for taking on one of the more worthwhile chores
in Web-airplane-land. IMHO, it would be worth signing up
with our local ISP just to receive a good Tailwind mailing list.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Chad Willie Plans |
The only one of these I heard details about was in the Saint Louis area a
few years ago. It was so tail heavy it scared its owners who donated it to
a museum.
They considered it to be a death trap.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 10:05 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Chad Willie Plans
>I have the plans, but haven't seen much other than Willies prototype
photos.
>I think it looks cool, but underdesigned with regard to the interplane
>bracing, and wiring.
>
>Stevee.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Greg Yotz
>Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 9:29 PM
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Chad Willie Plans
>
>
>Has anyone built a 'Pietenpol Aerial' aka the Biplane Pietenpol??? I
>bought a set of used planes from a guy yesterday.... It's interesting
>but I'll stick to the good 'ol original Piet...
>I was just wondering if anyone had any experience or new of any picts on
>the web of a 'Pietenpol Aerial'?
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinges on Empennage |
>I'm getting ready to make/buy hinges for the elevator and rudder. I was
>wondering if anyone had any suggestions before I spent the time building
>the 36 or so parts.
Greg- As I recall Vitalis Kapler sells cast aluminum hinges. Sounds
soft but I've seen them with no wear after hundreds of hours. Made mine
the hard way. Info on Kapler can be found on the BPAN website by
Grant MacLaren.
>Also did everyone use #8 aircraft hardware with a washer to hold these
>on?
I recessed my tailfeather edges with a router very carefully to 'sink' the
hinges in flush with the surface then used 10-32 machine screws with
a 'pan head' phillips style. ps-you need to cut holes in some gusetts
to get the nuts on.
>Did anybody just make the control hornes out of heavier gauge ac
>aluminum instead of the airdynamic weldment the plans show?
>
This has been done w/ heavier gauge 4130 Steel, but have not seen
them in alum. The thin steel used to form the two-piece control horns
was easier to work than I predicted- but welding is touchy- if you can
make them 2 piece and have them tig welded by a good tig welder-makes
a nice clean edge. (ps- those babies are light as can be and SUPER
strong. Bernie was no slacker. Mike C.
>thanks,
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Steve:
Very interesting idea. Please sign me up for this one also. Thanks for
the additional effort.
Best Regards,
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Excellent idea!
-------------
Original Text
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | , on 8/19/98 8:34 AM: |
I have just decided that my next scratchbuilt project will be a Tailwind.
Anyone here have experience with this plane? I know that several Piet
builders have gone on to build Tailwinds (Dick Alkire for one.) I am going
to start a new list for Tailwinds. Anyone interested in an early
subscription? I promise ground floor spot will be cheap! :)
Stevee
t
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinges on Empennage |
Hi Greg:
Another variation on the theme: Consider using two AN43B-13 eyebolts
and one AN23-10 clevis bolt, with the necessary washers, castle nuts and
cotter-pins at each hinge location, slightly recessed like Mike mentioned.
Very simple, light, and very strong.
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
The last few days in Maine have been very hot & stuffy, with temps in
the 90's. I took one of my ribs down from the rack to admire it :)
and noticed that on days like that the glue feels slightly tacky,
and my fingers stick slightly to it. Is this normal behaviour for
T-88 in hot, humid weather? Does it have a lot of bearing on the
strength of the bond?
Thanks
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoerope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/wbuilder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plane for Sale |
Have you got any more detail on the Ford Escort and reduction that you
used? I think a Ford is going to be a lot easier to get than a C-65!
Good luck on the next project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Steve:
Have attempted to send two acknowledgements to Twind and has come back as
undeliverable because this address is not on the directory.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
rans aircraft in kansas will sell you streamlined struts that will
work in 1200 gross and under, there phone, do search on rans
aircraft they are also resaonable on price! i still haven't completely
got the hang of this here email so bar with a poor ozark boy!
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Holland
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 10:18 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>John, I appreciated your comments on the use of aluminum struts.
>However, i am unable to find a source. Can you help? Did you stick with
>the same elliptical cross section? Or go larger? What was the cost per
>foot? I have been on vacation and am just wading through 105 e-mails.
>Thanks.
>-=Ian=-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LanhamOS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Anyone hear of an allwood Tailwind? About 6 year ago at a fly in at
Creston, Iowa I saw one. Even the control stick was wood! It was powered by an
90 horse Cont.
It should have really scooted. The two guys on board must have weighed at
least
500 lbs.. and take off perfomance on a hot July day was great.
Orville E. Lanham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
im speculating on this however wasn't one of the first wind tunnels
designed by a frenchman named Effiel, is this where
the jenny got here airfoil that Mr. Pietenpol was so fond of,
in the glider manual,s Mr. Pietenpol comments that he himself
tried different airfoils such as the gotengen (excuse the spelling)
but none would lift hen's feathers. so they used the effiel with
an increase in ordinance! then she climbed like a home sick
angel!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 5:08 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Airfoils
>Last time I wrote, I was looking at drawings of the Sky Scout, with ideas
>about using an A75 for power. My spouse caught me studying those drawings
and
>said something to the effect that "Wait a minute! There's only one seat!"
>End of consideration. Ergo, I'm working on my long delayed AirCamper, to
be
>powered by the self-same A75. I've now glued up the rudder, and if I do
say
>so myself, it don't look bad...at least for a first effort at aircraft
>cabinetry..
>
>Now for the poser. Given that BP designed a good airfoil for the
AirCamper,
>there have been advances in aerodynamics, and I have to wonder about using
a
>bit more modern airfoil...the 4412 comes easily to mind. Has anyone any
>actual experience with this? Is there some great advantage to using the
>modified Eiffel, or is there some great disadvantage to using the 4412. It
>seems that I might get a little more lift and a tad more speed from the
4412,
>but I am not an engineer. While I appreciate the purist philosophy, and
>intend to stick closely to plans, (BP 1933), I think it's appropriate to
>explore some minor changes to make minor improvements in performance and or
>utility. I'd sure appreciate input from the group. Thanx!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patcoolnet(at)aol.com |
I understand that there is information re:Petenpol Aircampers from your org.
Am in the process of building one and need input--
E mail Bud at this address--thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Is THIS the plane youre all talking about?
http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/tiff/tailwind.gif
Richard
> Anyone hear of an allwood Tailwind? About 6 year ago at a fly in
> at
> Creston, Iowa I saw one. Even the control stick was wood! It was
> powered by an 90 horse Cont. It should have really scooted. The two
> guys on board must have weighed at least 500 lbs.. and take off
> perfomance on a hot July day was great. Orville E. Lanham
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
Patcoolnet(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 4:36 PM
I understand that there is information re:Petenpol Aircampers from your org.
Am in the process of building one and need input--
E mail Bud at this address--thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
Speaking of struts, here's a URL of a company that sells an extruded aluminum
streamline tube. Sounds like its intended to fit over a more structurally
significant bar stock for use as lift struts. Kind of heavy when added to 4130
square stock, but not terribly expensive. I assume this kind of material can't
be used without more support...does anyone out there think otherwise?
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)mailexcite.com> |
About the rpm and torque of the flathead jeep engine.
39 hp and 105 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 rpm. Max rpm is 4000.
I do truely believe,(from my reading) that the reason the model "A" produces the
same torque and hp as the jeep, while the jeep is 1/3 lower in displacement
is the very poor breathing of the model "a" engine.
This man was able to increase the ford engine to 168 lbs torque, this equals the
c-85.
Further the jeep at 134 cid, and with as big a valves as can safely be installed
(factory valves) is probably at it's max or nearly so at 105 ft lbs.
The c-65, is i believe rated at 125 ft lbs at around 2400rpm. It seems to me that
if one were to install a power carb (if there is such a thing) and headers,on
the jeep engine he should be able to increase the torque to nearly the same
as the c-65, and still cruse the engine at around 2000 rpm.
I am not in any way an engine expert however...
oilcanbob
http://www.mailexcite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Wittman Tailwind List |
Richard,
YUP!!
Steve
-----Original Message-----
Richard DeCosta
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 12:44 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wittman Tailwind List
Is THIS the plane youre all talking about?
http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/tiff/tailwind.gif
Richard
> Anyone hear of an allwood Tailwind? About 6 year ago at a fly in
> at
> Creston, Iowa I saw one. Even the control stick was wood! It was
> powered by an 90 horse Cont. It should have really scooted. The two
> guys on board must have weighed at least 500 lbs.. and take off
> perfomance on a hot July day was great. Orville E. Lanham
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Interesting!
A Tailwind-fancier friend once told me of an all-wood
Tailwind renamed the "Woodwind." Could this be it?
His recollection was that it was much heavier than the
tube-and-fabric original.
I'd like to know more about this. I enjoy welding, but there
is something neat about the idea of a wood translation.
Owen Davies
-----Original Message-----
>YUP!!
>
>Steve
>>Is THIS the plane youre all talking about?
>>http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/tiff/tailwind.gif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Melaun <rxmelaun(at)gte.net> |
David B. Schober wrote:
>
> If you want to compare the Piet airtfoil to others you need to get data on the
Piet
> airfoil. You can try to get Dr. Patrick Hanley to run the coordinates thru his
> Visual Airfoil program. He ran another airfoil (the one on my Howard DGA) and
was
> very helpful. His E-Mail is hanley(at)hanleyinnovations.com
>
> I've seen Piets with different airfoils and never saw any real improvement. Of
all
> the Piets I've flown (one "A", one corvair and one A-65) all had the original
> airfoil and none had bad stall charicteristics. All were a blast to fly! The
"A" was
> the best!
>
To the group - (I hope I don't regret this) I have VisualFoil and would
be willing to run a virtual test on airfoils for you, time permitting.
All I ask is that you create the ordinate file, the format for which
I'll provide. I caution everyone that its Cm calculations aren't always
accurate (I have NASA papers for wind tunnel tests of the UI-1720
airfoil and the theoretical values are way off from the actual).
Nevertheless, it's Cl figures do seem fairly accurate.
Richard Melaun
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David <dsiebert(at)gate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
I also am interested. Any one know of a Hatz list?
-----Original Message-----
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 11:04 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wittman Tailwind List
>
>I have just decided that my next scratchbuilt project will be a Tailwind.
>Anyone here have experience with this plane? I know that several Piet
>builders have gone on to build Tailwinds (Dick Alkire for one.) I am going
>to start a new list for Tailwinds. Anyone interested in an early
>subscription? I promise ground floor spot will be cheap! :)
>
>Stevee
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Conway <ConwayW(at)ricks.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Plane for Sale |
Ian, the conversion was engineered by Ed Lubitz, a Canadian airline pilot.
He at one time provided a bolt on reduction unit--cast iron, no housing
bolted directly to the engine, and a manual that described the entire
conversion process and included drawings of all conversion parts. I have
a manual of some thirty pages or so.
>>> Ian Holland 08/19 3:46 PM >>>
Have you got any more detail on the Ford Escort and reduction that you
used? I think a Ford is going to be a lot easier to get than a C-65!
Good luck on the next project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
I found some of my notes re: aluminum struts.
I ordered the 'small' strut from:
Carlson Aircraft Inc
50643 SR 14
PO Box 8804
East Palestine, OH 44413
Fax 330-426-1144
330-426-3934
e-mail: mlc@sky-tec.com
6061T6 stremline strut extrusion
Major axis 2.44"
Minor axis 1.00"
Flat area inside accomodates 3/4" square tube. In the thickest wall, the
wall is 1/8", and varies down to something like .058.
Length is 10'6" but will cut to 107" for UPS.
Last year's price was $35.70 each. (Compare to 4130!)
Basic rough stress analysis:
Assuming a 1100 lb gross weight Piet for an even number, and 6 gs (4gs times
1.5 safety factor?) for a design load:
1100 / 4 struts * 6 = 1650.
In other words each strut must withstand a tension load of 1650 lbs.
With a .049 wall 4130 steel equivalant to 1.5" round circumfrence strut we
figure something like this:
.049 * 1.5 * 75000 yield = 5512.50 which is 3.34 times the necessary
strength of 1650.
With a .058 wall 6061T6 strut we get something like this:
.058 * 1.5 * 35000 yield = 3150 which is 1.91 times the necessary strength
of 1650.
So we conclude that though the aluminum strut is significantly less strong
than the 4130 strut, it is almost twice as strong as necessary. Please note
portions of the wall thickness are significantly thicker than the .058 we
used for calculation.
Some of you engineers (I ain't one) might want to clean this up. I seam to
recall the yield we used for 6061T6 might not be precise. One of you may
have the exact figure available.
What I did was use a bolted 4130 square tube fitting in each end of the
strut. They appear to be plenty ample to use without a full length steel
tube inside them. You do what you think is prudent.
Your comments are welcome. I saved all these notes for an article I have
never got around to writing for the BPAN.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter P Frantz
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 6:11 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>Speaking of struts, here's a URL of a company that sells an extruded
aluminum
>streamline tube. Sounds like its intended to fit over a more structurally
>significant bar stock for use as lift struts. Kind of heavy when added to
4130
>square stock, but not terribly expensive. I assume this kind of material
can't
>be used without more support...does anyone out there think otherwise?
>
>http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
>
>--Peter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I did some oven tests about a year ago where I did test strips and
heated to about 200 F for 1/2 hour trying to duplicate temperatures
within the wing. The test strips did not fail on the glue line when
sheared, but were very "sticky" and the material that was outside the
joint could be easily penetrated with a thumb nail. Having said that,
there are a lot of folks using T-88 with no problem. I elected to use
another type and the " stickiness was only a concern.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
Well... I was putting together some corvair info for my website, and
came to realise that I dont have plans/instructions for building the
cowling! Did I miss something in ordering? There must be plans
somewhere...
Richard
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hinges on Empennage |
Vi Kappler has a complete set of hinges for about $27.00, (last time I
checked). I bought a set, and they are great, just needing a little file work
for perfect fit. Saves hours and hours and hours....
Vi is listed on the BPAN page. Good luck! Don C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hinges on Empennage |
I used some 1-3/8 or so streamline tubing (steel) to form my rudder and
elevator horns. They're a little heavy, but Strong! Don C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinges on Empennage |
Same price I paid at Brodhead this year! They come with cotter pins &
with the mounting holes countersunk.
Don, how much file work did you do -- enough to let the hinge rotate 30
degrees each way ??
Michael C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
> Vi Kappler has a complete set of hinges for about $27.00, (last time
I
> checked). I bought a set, and they are great, just needing a little
file work
> for perfect fit. Saves hours and hours and hours....
>
> Vi is listed on the BPAN page. Good luck! Don C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hinges on Empennage |
Micheal,
I haven't filed them to final profile, yet, but am planning on about 30
degrees' travel. The plans don't show that so I'm guessing. Big
disappointment was no Piets at Evergreen Fly-in last week-end. Where were all
you North-West guys?
Don C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Just opened my mailbox this a.m. and got my confirmation of reservation of
my N number from the FAA. 899JG!
Got the belly covered as well as the left side.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 12:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>I found some of my notes re: aluminum struts.
>
>I ordered the 'small' strut from:
>
>Carlson Aircraft Inc
>50643 SR 14
>PO Box 8804
>East Palestine, OH 44413
>
>Fax 330-426-1144
>330-426-3934
>e-mail: mlc@sky-tec.com
>
>6061T6 stremline strut extrusion
>Major axis 2.44"
>Minor axis 1.00"
>Flat area inside accomodates 3/4" square tube. In the thickest wall, the
>wall is 1/8", and varies down to something like .058.
>Length is 10'6" but will cut to 107" for UPS.
>
>Last year's price was $35.70 each. (Compare to 4130!)
>
>Basic rough stress analysis:
>
>Assuming a 1100 lb gross weight Piet for an even number, and 6 gs (4gs
times
>1.5 safety factor?) for a design load:
>
>1100 / 4 struts * 6 = 1650.
>
>In other words each strut must withstand a tension load of 1650 lbs.
>
>With a .049 wall 4130 steel equivalant to 1.5" round circumfrence strut we
>figure something like this:
>
>.049 * 1.5 * 75000 yield = 5512.50 which is 3.34 times the necessary
>strength of 1650.
>
>With a .058 wall 6061T6 strut we get something like this:
>
>.058 * 1.5 * 35000 yield = 3150 which is 1.91 times the necessary strength
>of 1650.
>
>So we conclude that though the aluminum strut is significantly less strong
>than the 4130 strut, it is almost twice as strong as necessary. Please
note
>portions of the wall thickness are significantly thicker than the .058 we
>used for calculation.
>
>Some of you engineers (I ain't one) might want to clean this up. I seam to
>recall the yield we used for 6061T6 might not be precise. One of you may
>have the exact figure available.
>
>What I did was use a bolted 4130 square tube fitting in each end of the
>strut. They appear to be plenty ample to use without a full length steel
>tube inside them. You do what you think is prudent.
>
>Your comments are welcome. I saved all these notes for an article I have
>never got around to writing for the BPAN.
>
>John
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter P Frantz
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 6:11 PM
>Subject: Re: Struts
>
>
>>Speaking of struts, here's a URL of a company that sells an extruded
>aluminum
>>streamline tube. Sounds like its intended to fit over a more structurally
>>significant bar stock for use as lift struts. Kind of heavy when added to
>4130
>>square stock, but not terribly expensive. I assume this kind of material
>can't
>>be used without more support...does anyone out there think otherwise?
>>
>>http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
>>
>>--Peter
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Peter,
Just looked up the url you gave. The same strut I am talking about and the
same vendor.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter P Frantz
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 6:11 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>Speaking of struts, here's a URL of a company that sells an extruded
aluminum
>streamline tube. Sounds like its intended to fit over a more structurally
>significant bar stock for use as lift struts. Kind of heavy when added to
4130
>square stock, but not terribly expensive. I assume this kind of material
can't
>be used without more support...does anyone out there think otherwise?
>
>http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
>
>--Peter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair cowling |
Richard, my impression is that when it comes to cowling the corvair, you're on
your own. I have yet to see two different Corvair ships with the same cowl.
In fact, while perusing back issues of the BPAN, I noticed that some Corvair
pilots have installed different cowls on the same aircraft over time. For
example, have a look at the ship built by Duane Tulba (I think that's his
name). Its pictured on your website (Corvair.jpg). If I'm not mistaken, that
aircraft was pictured in a BPAN back issue with a rather fetching cowl modeled
after the old Jenny. IMHO, it really looked sharp. I guess it was later
modified because it was too draggy, or perhaps there was insufficient cooling.
Who knows?
I think I recall reading in another BPAN back issue that someone back in
Minnesota or Wisconsin still has BHP's mold for a fiberglass Corvair cowl.
Anyone know about that?
I'm a long way from cowling mine (hell, I just started making wing ribs a month
ago), but I'd also like to hear from people who have been there & done that.
BTW, my Corvair engine is completely torn down now; I'm gathering parts for the
rebuild and I welcome sage advice. What a beautiful engine.
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
Thanks for posting your analysis of 6061-T6 strut strength. I'm glad to hear
that there exists streamlined material for less cash than the 4130 stuff, and
that it is being thoughtfully applied to the Piet airframe. You've shown me
that its stronger than I thought. I'll make a note of this for when I get to
that point in construction (by the time we'll all be flying hypersonic fusion
powered vehicles).
Just one question (and remember, I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work):
I thought that the struts were primarily used in compression, and the cables
were there to support tension stresses. Seems like the yield stress of the
strut wouldn't be terribly important under compression, but since the concern
would be for buckling (hence, jury struts) then some factor dependent upon the
cross section would be important (compare the compression behavior of a bar
with that of a large diameter tube of the same wall thickness). I dunno.
Also, keep in mind that your calculations assume gravitational acceleration of
1g, and turbulence could increase that (by how much, I don't know, but I would
guess that you're plenty safe).
If anything that I've said above is true, then I suppose its good news since
the compression stress will probably be much less than tension (and cables are
real good at supporting tension: 1/8" cable has 2000lb breaking strength).
Hmmm, can anyone recommend anything for me to learn more about this; something
like "Aerodynamic Structural Analysis for Beginners"?
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
Oops, sorry John, just noticed that you specified 6g in your strut analysis as
a safety factor. Sounds like plenty of room for error there!
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair cowling |
Peter,
Duane Tulba has BHP's mold. He lives in Indiana I think.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter P Frantz
Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 10:24 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair cowling
>Richard, my impression is that when it comes to cowling the corvair, you're
on
>your own. I have yet to see two different Corvair ships with the same
cowl.
>In fact, while perusing back issues of the BPAN, I noticed that some
Corvair
>pilots have installed different cowls on the same aircraft over time. For
>example, have a look at the ship built by Duane Tulba (I think that's his
>name). Its pictured on your website (Corvair.jpg). If I'm not mistaken,
that
>aircraft was pictured in a BPAN back issue with a rather fetching cowl
modeled
>after the old Jenny. IMHO, it really looked sharp. I guess it was later
>modified because it was too draggy, or perhaps there was insufficient
cooling.
>Who knows?
>
>I think I recall reading in another BPAN back issue that someone back in
>Minnesota or Wisconsin still has BHP's mold for a fiberglass Corvair cowl.
>Anyone know about that?
>
>I'm a long way from cowling mine (hell, I just started making wing ribs a
month
>ago), but I'd also like to hear from people who have been there & done
that.
>BTW, my Corvair engine is completely torn down now; I'm gathering parts for
the
>rebuild and I welcome sage advice. What a beautiful engine.
>
>--Peter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
Found this guy selling small orders of spruce
on the net, by small i mean airplane size orders.
his name is Brent Cole and he lives in Craig Alaska.
He finds trees blown over by wind instead of cutting
down trees. The spruce has exceptional number of
growth rings and may be you should ask for a max and
min number when ordering. I'm not gaining anything
from this just passing along information. The wood
is shipped green and he'll sell for a very low price
of $ 4.00 a board foot and is clear and will custom cut
at your desired width and thickness, any how the guy
seemed honest and straight forward!
his number is 907-826-3566
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Peter,
I dunno much about measuring compression loads. My friend the engineer who
helped me with this said that is hard to predict and calculate. Do you know
how to do it?
I do not know how many negative gs to plan for though I am sure it is less
than the positive gs. Piets are flying many hours with wood struts which I
guess are weaker in compression than the aluminum struts. I am told the
jury struts (which I am using) are the key. It would appear most potential
negative gs might be in a hard landing. If the wings collapsed there it
would be messy and embarrasing, but probably not fatal.
One last note on tension loads. I decided to use 1/8" cable on the wings
for additional peace of mind.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter P Frantz
Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 12:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>John,
>
>Thanks for posting your analysis of 6061-T6 strut strength. I'm glad to
hear
>that there exists streamlined material for less cash than the 4130 stuff,
and
>that it is being thoughtfully applied to the Piet airframe. You've shown
me
>that its stronger than I thought. I'll make a note of this for when I get
to
>that point in construction (by the time we'll all be flying hypersonic
fusion
>powered vehicles).
>
>Just one question (and remember, I'm not an engineer, but I play one at
work):
>I thought that the struts were primarily used in compression, and the
cables
>were there to support tension stresses. Seems like the yield stress of the
>strut wouldn't be terribly important under compression, but since the
concern
>would be for buckling (hence, jury struts) then some factor dependent upon
the
>cross section would be important (compare the compression behavior of a bar
>with that of a large diameter tube of the same wall thickness). I dunno.
>Also, keep in mind that your calculations assume gravitational acceleration
of
>1g, and turbulence could increase that (by how much, I don't know, but I
would
>guess that you're plenty safe).
>
>If anything that I've said above is true, then I suppose its good news
since
>the compression stress will probably be much less than tension (and cables
are
>real good at supporting tension: 1/8" cable has 2000lb breaking strength).
>Hmmm, can anyone recommend anything for me to learn more about this;
something
>like "Aerodynamic Structural Analysis for Beginners"?
>
>--Peter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SPRUCE SOURCE |
Yes, I ordered a batch of spruce from Brent about three weeks ago. It hasn't
been shipped yet, since I asked him to dry it out a bit for me (sounds like its
rather heavy when wet). Its risky buying from a source like this, but you just
can't beat the price (he charged me a bit more than $4.00/BF, but far, far less
than the cost of certified aircraft spruce). I ordered about 20 BF in 7 foot
lengths of various thickness, and the shipping (via USPS) came to $26. Have
you received wood from him? Can you verify its quality?
So far, I've been using local douglas fir, and local --but expensive-- sitka
spruce. If Brent's sitka is of the quality that he advertises, I'll continue
to use it for shorter pieces where I wish to conserve weight (i.e., tail), and
I'll use fir for longerons and spars.
I'll report back here when I receive the lumber from Brent and have had time to
work with some and evaluate it. BTW, here's his URL:
http://www.ptialaska.net/~liberty1/asw.html#anchor1
Brent has been busy with the Salmon run lately, but he checks e-mail every
day. He sells primarily music wood for sound boards (guitars, etc..);
exceptionally high quality sitka.
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair cowling |
Is Duane on this list? I'd love to see it. Would also love to
hear/see more about that cowling that looked like a Jenny's. I LOVE
Jennys!
Richard
> Duane Tulba has BHP's mold. He lives in Indiana I think.
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter P Frantz
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 10:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Corvair cowling
>
>
> >Richard, my impression is that when it comes to cowling the corvair, you're
> on
> >your own. I have yet to see two different Corvair ships with the same
> cowl.
> >In fact, while perusing back issues of the BPAN, I noticed that some
> Corvair
> >pilots have installed different cowls on the same aircraft over time. For
> >example, have a look at the ship built by Duane Tulba (I think that's his
> >name). Its pictured on your website (Corvair.jpg). If I'm not mistaken,
> that
> >aircraft was pictured in a BPAN back issue with a rather fetching cowl
> modeled
> >after the old Jenny. IMHO, it really looked sharp. I guess it was later
> >modified because it was too draggy, or perhaps there was insufficient
> cooling.
> >Who knows?
> >
> >I think I recall reading in another BPAN back issue that someone back in
> >Minnesota or Wisconsin still has BHP's mold for a fiberglass Corvair cowl.
> >Anyone know about that?
> >
> >I'm a long way from cowling mine (hell, I just started making wing ribs a
> month
> >ago), but I'd also like to hear from people who have been there & done
> that.
> >BTW, my Corvair engine is completely torn down now; I'm gathering parts for
> the
> >rebuild and I welcome sage advice. What a beautiful engine.
> >
> >--Peter
> >
>
>
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoerope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/wbuilder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, John Greenlee wrote:
> Peter,
>
> I dunno much about measuring compression loads. My friend the engineer who
> helped me with this said that is hard to predict and calculate. Do you know
> how to do it?
>
> I do not know how many negative gs to plan for though I am sure it is less
> than the positive gs. Piets are flying many hours with wood struts which I
> guess are weaker in compression than the aluminum struts. I am told the
> jury struts (which I am using) are the key. It would appear most potential
> negative gs might be in a hard landing. If the wings collapsed there it
> would be messy and embarrasing, but probably not fatal.
>
> One last note on tension loads. I decided to use 1/8" cable on the wings
> for additional peace of mind.
>
> John
OK, I read the original e-mail from John and now this one. There have been
a couple of false assumptions made. These can be dangerous as there may be
a greater load being applied to the struts than they are capable of.
1. the priginal post divided the ENTIRE wing loading at 6 g's across the
four struts. Depending on the Geometry of the struts/wing, this is
unlikely to be the case. Since there is an UNEVENLY distributed load both
across the wing spanwise and chordwise, The front strut usually takes more
of the load than the rear.
2. it was also assumed that the load on both struts per side would be 550
lbs at 1 g. First, the wing root fittings take some of this load. Second,
depending on the wing geometry, the strut load can actually be GREATER
than the wing load. The wing and fuselage can actually work like a lever
against the strut. The Schwitzer 2-33A would be a good example of this. It
has a long wing but a relatively short strut.
3. The calculations also assume that the struts are VERTICAL, which they
are not. The Load on the strut increases since it's on an angle (vector
forces).
Fortunately, the Piet's geometry is such that approximately half of the
flight loads are transmitted through the struts and the rest goes through
the root fittings. At 6 g's, only about 1200 lbs force is imposed on the
front struts and about 600 lbs through the rear.
The compression loads are no more difficult to work out than the tensile
loads. However, the buckling model could be a little tougher. Buckling is
usually based on shape as opposed to tensile or compressive strength. In
fact, Considering that wooden struts are solid, the buckling strength
would be about the same or better than hollow aluminum tubing.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
I've said all I know about structural engineering... nay, even more than I
know. There are some real engineer types around here. I'll ask around.
Anyways, it sounds like this is just an academic excecise. I noticed that
Aircraft Spruce sells something very similar (at a higher price, page 149 of
1998 catalog) for use on the Citabria and Piper without internal bracing. I'm
sure they've done the math.
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> |
Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, John Greenlee wrote:
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > I dunno much about measuring compression loads. My friend the engineer who
> > helped me with this said that is hard to predict and calculate. Do you know
> > how to do it?
> >
> > I do not know how many negative gs to plan for though I am sure it is less
> > than the positive gs. Piets are flying many hours with wood struts which I
> > guess are weaker in compression than the aluminum struts. I am told the
> > jury struts (which I am using) are the key. It would appear most potential
> > negative gs might be in a hard landing. If the wings collapsed there it
> > would be messy and embarrasing, but probably not fatal.
> >
> > One last note on tension loads. I decided to use 1/8" cable on the wings
> > for additional peace of mind.
> >
> > John
>
> OK, I read the original e-mail from John and now this one. There have been
> a couple of false assumptions made. These can be dangerous as there may be
> a greater load being applied to the struts than they are capable of.
>
> 1. the priginal post divided the ENTIRE wing loading at 6 g's across the
> four struts. Depending on the Geometry of the struts/wing, this is
> unlikely to be the case. Since there is an UNEVENLY distributed load both
> across the wing spanwise and chordwise, The front strut usually takes more
> of the load than the rear.
>
> 2. it was also assumed that the load on both struts per side would be 550
> lbs at 1 g. First, the wing root fittings take some of this load. Second,
> depending on the wing geometry, the strut load can actually be GREATER
> than the wing load. The wing and fuselage can actually work like a lever
> against the strut. The Schwitzer 2-33A would be a good example of this. It
> has a long wing but a relatively short strut.
>
> 3. The calculations also assume that the struts are VERTICAL, which they
> are not. The Load on the strut increases since it's on an angle (vector
> forces).
>
> Fortunately, the Piet's geometry is such that approximately half of the
> flight loads are transmitted through the struts and the rest goes through
> the root fittings. At 6 g's, only about 1200 lbs force is imposed on the
> front struts and about 600 lbs through the rear.
>
> The compression loads are no more difficult to work out than the tensile
> loads. However, the buckling model could be a little tougher. Buckling is
> usually based on shape as opposed to tensile or compressive strength. In
> fact, Considering that wooden struts are solid, the buckling strength
> would be about the same or better than hollow aluminum tubing.
>
> Anyway, I hope this helps.
> Ken
>
I just LUV this type of debate & opinion exchange! It makes the site
worthwhile & gives us all something to think about as we all pursue our
dreams of the perfect Piet. To you guys that have a working or
theoretical knowledge of this stuff, PLEASE keep it coming.........
I'm just wondering where the line needs to be drawn so we can all get
on with certified spruce/approved glue/4130 steel and other things
that Bernie never considered when he first started out. For example,
I have NO intention of running down to True-Value for some gate strap
hinges to hold my ailerons on, but by damn, it DID work, didn't it?
Now we're into the 6g range for struts. Hopefully, someone out there has
experienced +6 g's in a Piet & can add to the conversation-
Anyway, this is not to be construed as critisism, just an observation.
For my personal plans, if Will Graff used ash & mahogany ply sandwich w/
jury struts, and is still alive & flying after all this time, maybe,
just maybe, alternatives DO WORK in the real world of Piet flight.
Keep up the debate! Every point raised makes me think & double-think,
and that's one of the great values of web discussion groups.
Low & Slow,
Lee in MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair cowling |
Richard,
If you haven't seen it, I think you'll really like the looks of Duane's
original cowl. I think it was somewhere in the second volume of BPAN (I'll
look it up later, they're at home). With Grant MacLaren's permission, I can
scan the photo and post it on my website or e-mail it directly to you. That
is, if you don't already have those back issues. I should warn you that the
photo reproduction quality of this particular back issues is spectacularly
poor. Can't do it 'til Monday.
Keep in mind, he scrapped this cowl for some reason. Must've been something
terribly wrong with it.
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D.J.H." <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Downward slant to engine |
My corvair engine mount drawing shows 1 inch downthrust.
Doug
=46rom: Paris Wilcox
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Downward slant to engine
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 1:07 AM
How Does One go about figuring this out with a different engine- I am
using a corvair- and naturally I want this to be absolutely right the
first time!
paris
---steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
>
> Yes,=A0 The plans show the model A with an inch or so of downthrust=
.=A0
Not sure
> what degree it turns out to be, but that is why it is there.=A0
Without it you
> can expect poorer climb performance and a larger degree of nose dro=
p
as
> power is reduced to idle.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
f
Sanford
> Love
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 8:13 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> Is it needed on the Piet? Will there be a problem if I don't have i=
t?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve(at)byu.edu < steve(at)byu.edu>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion < piet(at)byu.edu>
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:18 AM
> Subject: RE: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> The nose down position of the engine is built in on purpose and is
called
> "downthrust", and is usually combined with a couple of degrees of
right or
> left thrust measured in degrees from the longitudinal centerline
(vertical
> and horizontal)of the fuselage.=A0 Its purpose is two-fold.=A0 Righ=
t or
left
> thrust is designed in to help compensate for the torque and p-facto=
r
of a
> propeller driven aircraft.=A0 It is set to compensate for forces on=
the
> aircraft in cruise configuration.=A0 Often the it is combined with
a
> coresponding offset of the vertical stabilizer.=A0 Down thrust is s=
et
for a
> similar reason, but specifically to counter pitching moment
differences
> between full power and idle conditions.=A0 Downthrust has a the eff=
ect
of
> helping the prop disk to be more inline with the relative wind
during climb,
> and cruise for better prop efficiency.=A0
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> STevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
f
Sanford
> "Sandy" Love
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:19 AM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Downward slant to engine
>
>
> Can anyone tell me why there is a downward (nose down) slant to the
engine?
> Is it needed for a conventional 4 cly aircraft engine? What would
happen if
> the engine was mounted along the thrust line?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
> Now we're into the 6g range for struts. Hopefully, someone out there has
> experienced +6 g's in a Piet & can add to the conversation-
> Lee in MI
>
The only reason I used 6 g is as a basis for the ULTIMATE load. Designers
frequently use a safety factor of 1.5 between the limit load and the
ultimate load. For example, if a limit load of +6/-3 g is published, the
plane is actually tested or designed to break at +9/-4.5g.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D.J.H." <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
You can add my name to your list,please.
Doug.
> From: steve(at)byu.edu
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Wittman Tailwind List
> Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 2:34 PM
>
>
> I have just decided that my next scratchbuilt project will be a Tailwind.
> Anyone here have experience with this plane? I know that several Piet
> builders have gone on to build Tailwinds (Dick Alkire for one.) I am
going
> to start a new list for Tailwinds. Anyone interested in an early
> subscription? I promise ground floor spot will be cheap! :)
>
> Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee L. Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> |
Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
> > Now we're into the 6g range for struts. Hopefully, someone out there has
> > experienced +6 g's in a Piet & can add to the conversation-
> > Lee in MI
> >
>
> The only reason I used 6 g is as a basis for the ULTIMATE load. Designers
> frequently use a safety factor of 1.5 between the limit load and the
> ultimate load. For example, if a limit load of +6/-3 g is published, the
> plane is actually tested or designed to break at +9/-4.5g.
>
> Ken
>
Good points! That's why I really appreciate this theory talk.......
>From my personal knowledge, I have to think that +9 -4.5 g's in
ANY airplane will be a moot point - my rib cage, lungs and arteries
to my brain will have given up the ghost about 5-6 g's before that!
I guess it's nice to know my airplane will disintergrate long after
my tired 52 year old, out-of-condition body does. Keep up the
contributions - I really enjoy them. By the time I've absorbed
all the postings, maybe Boeing will be after me!
Low & Slow
Lee in MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair cowling |
Sounds good. I dont have any back issues yet - hope to get some
around Christmas. :) A scan would be great; quality doesnt have to be
great - just enough for reference.
Thanks,
Richard
> If you haven't seen it, I think you'll really like the looks of
> Duane's original cowl. I think it was somewhere in the second
> volume of BPAN (I'll look it up later, they're at home). With Grant
> MacLaren's permission, I can scan the photo and post it on my
> website or e-mail it directly to you. That is, if you don't already
> have those back issues. I should warn you that the photo
> reproduction quality of this particular back issues is spectacularly
> poor. Can't do it 'til Monday.
>
> Keep in mind, he scrapped this cowl for some reason. Must've been
> something terribly wrong with it.
>
> --Peter
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Ken,
Thanks for the insight. It sounds like at 1200 lbs force, the aluminum
strut is 2.63 times strong enough! I got mild steel streamline tube for the
cabanes.
My education is all in business. (Accounting, actually). Maybe that's why
my mind is always looking for a cheaper way.......
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 2:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Struts
>On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, John Greenlee wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I dunno much about measuring compression loads. My friend the engineer
who
>> helped me with this said that is hard to predict and calculate. Do you
know
>> how to do it?
>>
>> I do not know how many negative gs to plan for though I am sure it is
less
>> than the positive gs. Piets are flying many hours with wood struts which
I
>> guess are weaker in compression than the aluminum struts. I am told the
>> jury struts (which I am using) are the key. It would appear most
potential
>> negative gs might be in a hard landing. If the wings collapsed there it
>> would be messy and embarrasing, but probably not fatal.
>>
>> One last note on tension loads. I decided to use 1/8" cable on the wings
>> for additional peace of mind.
>>
>> John
>
>OK, I read the original e-mail from John and now this one. There have been
>a couple of false assumptions made. These can be dangerous as there may be
>a greater load being applied to the struts than they are capable of.
>
>1. the priginal post divided the ENTIRE wing loading at 6 g's across the
>four struts. Depending on the Geometry of the struts/wing, this is
>unlikely to be the case. Since there is an UNEVENLY distributed load both
>across the wing spanwise and chordwise, The front strut usually takes more
>of the load than the rear.
>
>2. it was also assumed that the load on both struts per side would be 550
>lbs at 1 g. First, the wing root fittings take some of this load. Second,
>depending on the wing geometry, the strut load can actually be GREATER
>than the wing load. The wing and fuselage can actually work like a lever
>against the strut. The Schwitzer 2-33A would be a good example of this. It
>has a long wing but a relatively short strut.
>
>3. The calculations also assume that the struts are VERTICAL, which they
>are not. The Load on the strut increases since it's on an angle (vector
>forces).
>
>Fortunately, the Piet's geometry is such that approximately half of the
>flight loads are transmitted through the struts and the rest goes through
>the root fittings. At 6 g's, only about 1200 lbs force is imposed on the
>front struts and about 600 lbs through the rear.
>
>The compression loads are no more difficult to work out than the tensile
>loads. However, the buckling model could be a little tougher. Buckling is
>usually based on shape as opposed to tensile or compressive strength. In
>fact, Considering that wooden struts are solid, the buckling strength
>would be about the same or better than hollow aluminum tubing.
>
>Anyway, I hope this helps.
>Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Woodworking book |
I just went to the EAA store website to order the Aircraft
Woodworking book that everyone raves about, and found that it
is $11 and _$8 for shipping_! Zoiks! Does anyone know of another
place to get it from? The shipping is almost as much as the book!
Thanks
Richard
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | what plans were used in this plane? |
The ribs in this picture (Doug Hunts plane) are quite a bit different
from mine. What set of plans are they built from?
http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/acimg/DougHunt-Wing1.jpg
They look a bit heavier with the extra capstrips (vertical).
Richard
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Steve,
Had the privilege of watching Steve Wittman fly his Olds powered
Tailwind in Florida. He took one of our group (Bill Wynne of Pietenpol
Corvair conversions) with him and they disappeared for awhile. We
didn't know he was back until he came in like a rocket about 5 ft off
the grass with that Olds sounding like a baby P-51, followed by a zoom
climb to around 2,000 ft. Bill said it was the first time a senior
citizen ever scared a teenager (Steve was in his 80's then)! Airspeed
on the pass was about 190 indicated and the 1000 ft/min vsi was pegged
at the stop. A lot of performance for the money.
Mike
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
>
> I have just decided that my next scratchbuilt project will be a Tailwind.
> Anyone here have experience with this plane? I know that several Piet
> builders have gone on to build Tailwinds (Dick Alkire for one.) I am going
> to start a new list for Tailwinds. Anyone interested in an early
> subscription? I promise ground floor spot will be cheap! :)
>
> Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Peck <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Wow ! a woodworking book that will probably keep your tail feathers from
falling off 2000" in the air, And only for $19.00 with free shipping !
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I just went to the EAA store website to order the Aircraft
> Woodworking book that everyone raves about, and found that it
> is $11 and _$8 for shipping_! Zoiks! Does anyone know of another
> place to get it from? The shipping is almost as much as the book!
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard
> -------------------------------------------------
> Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
--
Check out Crusader Toys @
http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hinchman <mikehi(at)molalla.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Woodworking book |
Books are not inexpensive these days, folks. Nineteen bucks for this kind of
information is a lot of bang for the money. Try buying computer books, if
you think this is expensive!
Mike
-----Original Message-----
Peck
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 1998 8:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Woodworking book
Wow ! a woodworking book that will probably keep your tail feathers from
falling off 2000" in the air, And only for $19.00 with free shipping !
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> I just went to the EAA store website to order the Aircraft
> Woodworking book that everyone raves about, and found that it
> is $11 and _$8 for shipping_! Zoiks! Does anyone know of another
> place to get it from? The shipping is almost as much as the book!
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard
> -------------------------------------------------
> Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
--
Check out Crusader Toys @
http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Richard:
I found 'Wood Aircraft Building Techniques' by Poberezny on Amazon.com
for $11.95 but I couldn't get the web page to tell me what the
shipping charges would be.
I agree that the Eight Bucks shipping from the EAA is a ripoff. I have
a friend who self publishes some technical books and he screams
because the 200 page manual costs him over $4 to print when he orders
quantities of around 2000 - so the $8 shipping represents ALL the EAAs
costs and the $11 is their profit!
Perhaps you could minimize shipping by ordering it with some other
stuff, such as the EAA Aircraft Welding book or one or more of their
combo offers - buy the books and get the videos at a discount.
Ignore those rich guys trying to get you to shell out an extra eight
bucks of YOUR money.
Randy Stockberger
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com>
Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 9:22 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Woodworking book
I just went to the EAA store website to order the Aircraft
Woodworking book that everyone raves about, and found that it
is $11 and _$8 for shipping_! Zoiks! Does anyone know of another
place to get it from? The shipping is almost as much as the book!
Thanks
Richard
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Actually, for those pennypincher like me who are interested, I found
the same book at Wicks Aircraft Supply, and ordered it with my next
batch of spruce, saving a LOT on shipping.
> I found 'Wood Aircraft Building Techniques' by Poberezny on Amazon.com
> for $11.95 but I couldn't get the web page to tell me what the
> shipping charges would be.
>
> I agree that the Eight Bucks shipping from the EAA is a ripoff. I have
> a friend who self publishes some technical books and he screams
> because the 200 page manual costs him over $4 to print when he orders
> quantities of around 2000 - so the $8 shipping represents ALL the EAAs
> costs and the $11 is their profit!
>
> Perhaps you could minimize shipping by ordering it with some other
> stuff, such as the EAA Aircraft Welding book or one or more of their
> combo offers - buy the books and get the videos at a discount.
>
> Ignore those rich guys trying to get you to shell out an extra eight
> bucks of YOUR money.
>
> Randy Stockberger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 9:22 AM
> Subject: Woodworking book
>
>
> I just went to the EAA store website to order the Aircraft
> Woodworking book that everyone raves about, and found that it
> is $11 and _$8 for shipping_! Zoiks! Does anyone know of another
> place to get it from? The shipping is almost as much as the book!
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard
> -------------------------------------------------
> Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
>
>
>
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoerope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/wbuilder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***> |
| Subject: | Epoxy Alternatives.... |
I was curious about how the T88 I was using would do in the heat and
humidity here (101 F, 85%).(see previous discussion) And sure enough
mine was tacky and soft on top too. So I thought I would due some
destructive testing this weekend. I also thought I would use another
strong epoxy I've used very successfully before, the West brand of
marine epoxy. I completed 2 tests of each type of epoxy on like woods
(fir,hemlock) and both tests had the wood fail long before the epoxy
joint. And the West doesn't seem to get tacky at the same temp as the
T88.
Does anyone have experience building planes with West? What about FAA
approval of West?
I'm sure going to save these two test samples for the FAA inspector if I
do use West. Wish I would have taken pictures....
Curious in Kansas.....
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Randy,
Why would you think the Poberezney Family Corporation is not a moneymaking
operation?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Stockberger
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 12:07 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Woodworking book
>Richard:
>
>I found 'Wood Aircraft Building Techniques' by Poberezny on Amazon.com
>for $11.95 but I couldn't get the web page to tell me what the
>shipping charges would be.
>
>I agree that the Eight Bucks shipping from the EAA is a ripoff. I have
>a friend who self publishes some technical books and he screams
>because the 200 page manual costs him over $4 to print when he orders
>quantities of around 2000 - so the $8 shipping represents ALL the EAAs
>costs and the $11 is their profit!
>
>Perhaps you could minimize shipping by ordering it with some other
>stuff, such as the EAA Aircraft Welding book or one or more of their
>combo offers - buy the books and get the videos at a discount.
>
>Ignore those rich guys trying to get you to shell out an extra eight
>bucks of YOUR money.
>
>Randy Stockberger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 9:22 AM
>Subject: Woodworking book
>
>
>I just went to the EAA store website to order the Aircraft
>Woodworking book that everyone raves about, and found that it
>is $11 and _$8 for shipping_! Zoiks! Does anyone know of another
>place to get it from? The shipping is almost as much as the book!
>
>Thanks
>
>Richard
>-------------------------------------------------
>Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Hey guys, DeCosta solved his problem and is getting on with building his
Piet...how about if we do the same on this forum.
Paul & Tom have been offered positions that pay a lot more than they are
taking home, based on their demonstrated abilities to build from scratch, and
run a multi-national multi-million dollar enterprise....and I for one feel
that they have more than adequately demonstrated their love for building &
flying. Without them and the EAA we would probably be unable to have this
hobby open to us at all.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Hey,
I have no doubt they love building and flying.........
.........as much as they love money.
That's fine, cause I like to make a dollar bill too. However, If you think
EAA is a membership organization and not about making money you have your
head in the sand.
To demonstrate what I mean, next time your in Oshkosh tell Tom, "Hey Tom,
I'm a member just like you. How 'bout tossing me the keys to the B-17 so I
can practice some touch and gos." See how far you get.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren D. Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 10:19 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Woodworking book
> Hey guys, DeCosta solved his problem and is getting on with building
his
>Piet...how about if we do the same on this forum.
> Paul & Tom have been offered positions that pay a lot more than they
are
>taking home, based on their demonstrated abilities to build from scratch,
and
>run a multi-national multi-million dollar enterprise....and I for one feel
>that they have more than adequately demonstrated their love for building &
>flying. Without them and the EAA we would probably be unable to have this
>hobby open to us at all.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
Moving right along....
I get at least 1-2 emails a day from prospective Piet builders
because of my website, and most of them ask for specs on the plane.
My site didnt have any, so I started a general specs page (weights,
speeds, etc.). I do need some help from people, tho. I have filled
in everything I can to the best of my knowledge, but I know some need
adjusting, and a lot need info:
http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/specs.html
Also, if there are any important specs I left out, I could use those,
too.
Please email me directly at AirCamper(at)Yahoo.com, not the group.
Thanks,
Richard
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoerope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/wbuilder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Richard- You may find some additional specs. at the Pietenpol
Family Web site:
http://pietenpol.com/
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Corvair conversions |
Just noticed in Mike's recent post that Bill Wynne of Pietenpol Corvair
Conversions is a member of this list. Bill, if you're out there, would you
please respond? I discovered the packet of information that is sold through
Corvair Underground, but I'd like to hear more about it before shelling out the
$50.
Lots of related questions for other Corvairophiles:
Can anyone tell me if Mr. Wynne's information and guidance justifies the
price? Has a Pietenpol yet flown behind a motor converted in the manner
described in this booklet? Does Wynne's conversion differ significantly from
BHP's?
I have a stock 110 motor that I have completely dismantled, and I'm in the
process of gathering information to decide what parts of the rebuild I can do
myself, and what should be farmed out. I have a question regarding the
cylinder heads. I dropped by "Corvair Docs" the other day to inquire about
rebuilding heads. After I mistakenly mentioned that this was for an aircraft,
he quoted about $1000 to rebuild both heads. Is this exorbitant, or typical
for this kind of work? Anyone had this done recently? Is a stock rebuild
(with grooved rocker arm balls instead of stock) sufficient for this
application, or are there specialized valves and guides that I should consider?
Thanks,
Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D.J.H." <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: what plans were used in this plane? |
Richard,my ribs where built by another builder,a student in a high school
areo-class,that was taught by Graham Hansen a long time piet
driver/builder. The bracing is similar to the Grega rib,altough the form is
the same as Bernies.
Doug
> From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: what plans were used in this plane?
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 12:22 PM
>
> The ribs in this picture (Doug Hunts plane) are quite a bit different
> from mine. What set of plans are they built from?
>
> http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/acimg/DougHunt-Wing1.jpg
>
> They look a bit heavier with the extra capstrips (vertical).
>
> Richard
> -------------------------------------------------
> Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Where is Everyone? |
Just curious- I haven't had a posting from the group in several days?
Have I been dropped from the List????
Paris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hinchman <mikehi(at)molalla.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Where is Everyone? |
Read you loud and clear, Paris! I don't have anything to say because I'm not
building yet. Just collecting pearls of wisdom from those of you who are!
I've been seeing other postings, too.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
Wilcox
Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:59 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Where is Everyone?
Just curious- I haven't had a posting from the group in several days?
Have I been dropped from the List????
Paris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: what plans were used in this plane? |
Hi Doug,
Those ribs you mentioned were patterned after some ribs that had
been built by another party. The fuselage frame that you have, together
with a few ribs originally came from a builder north of Edmonton in
the Morinville area. He sold these parts to a friend of mine who never
got around to doing any more with the project. When he moved to
British Columbia about 14 years ago, he gave the pieces to me and
I, in turn, gave them to my student, Doug Blades. Doug and some of his
fellow classmates built more ribs using the completed ones as a
pattern. My rib jig and another would not accept them; in fact the ribs
on a homebuilt will likely not match those on another a/c unless the same
jig was used. The most important thing is to have all the ribs
on a given a/c identical. It doesn't seem to matter a lot if they differ
slightly from the plan or from those on another airplane of the same
design. But sometimes one can stumble onto something that improves
a design:
I once read a letter in the old EAA Experimenter (ca. 1956) in which
the writer said a friend had made a mistake in laying out his rib jig,
only to discover it after all the ribs had been made. The upper surface
curve from the leading edge to the front spar was more rounded, with
the ordinates about 3/16 inch greater than those on the plan at the
mid point. He left them this way and his Pietenpol flew better than any
other that he knew of.
When I built mine, I was aware of this letter---but was too "chicken"
to deviate from the plans. In retrospect, I wish that I had because my
son has a Piet that was built in Calgary in 1967 and its ribs are a bit
more rounded on the front upper surface than the plans indicate. This
particular a/c is a really good performer with an A65. It climbs better
with this power than any I have flown, including my own Piet.
Your ribs, as I recall, may have some of this feature. If so, I believe it
will be beneficial. How is your project coming along these days?
Cheers,
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Hey, Guys!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Hey, Guys!
Every year, EAA has a big book sale. All Eaa publications go on sale for
really good prices. Our chapter, (167, Napa/Solano, Calif) orders a bunch,
the chapter pays the shipping, and presto! Instant library. Watch for the
sale in the early part of the year.
Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Epoxy Alternatives.... |
I was curious about how the T88 I was using would do in the heat and
humidity here (101 F, 85%).(see previous discussion) And sure enough
mine was tacky and soft on top too. So I thought I would due some
destructive testing this weekend. I also thought I would use another
strong epoxy I've used very successfully before, the West brand of
marine epoxy. I completed 2 tests of each type of epoxy on like woods
(fir,hemlock) and both tests had the wood fail long before the epoxy
joint. And the West doesn't seem to get tacky at the same temp as the
T88.
Does anyone have experience building planes with West? What about FAA
approval of West?
I'm sure going to save these two test samples for the FAA inspector if I
do use West. Wish I would have taken pictures....
Curious in Kansas.....
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | re: Epoxy Alternatives.... |
Another epoxy-related question.
I have a set of ultralight plans from Midwest Engineering. The wings are
foam ribs with foam sheeting over spruce spars. They say to coat the foam
with epoxy before applying the fabric. The plans call for SafetyPoxy (sp)
throughout.
Is the West system thin enough to brush on for this application? T-88 and
SafetyPoxy are very viscous when mixed in the appropriate ratios. Seems
like a pain.
dms
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | re: Epoxy Alternatives.... |
I've used all three. The West System is definitely the thinnest especially
if you use the special coating harfener (207C I believe). T-88 is by far
the thickest. Safety-Poxy II is close to the viscosity of West System. Of
course, the viscosity of any of these products can be lowered by heating
up the liquids. Be prepared for quicker setting times though.
Ken
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil wrote:
> Another epoxy-related question.
> Is the West system thin enough to brush on for this application? T-88 and
> SafetyPoxy are very viscous when mixed in the appropriate ratios. Seems
> like a pain.
>
> dms
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: Epoxy Alternatives.... |
The West epoxy will last a little longer if you spread your batch in shallow
pan. I discovered this while using it last year repairing a conopy on a
Stitts Flutterbug. I suspect that the exothermic reaction is slowed down by
the mass being spread out. I also used small plastic syringes a 50cc and a
6cc to dispense the components. This allowed me to mix smaller batches when
gluing up small parts. I really like the west system and had no adverse
reactions to it with moderate protection. ie latex gloves.
John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Don
How can someone find out when this sale is? Will it be published in "Sport
Aviation"?
Thanks,
Bruce
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
RagWing Special # 392
http://www.clas.net/~flyer
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
> Hey, Guys!
>
> Every year, EAA has a big book sale. All Eaa publications go on sale for
> really good prices. Our chapter, (167, Napa/Solano, Calif) orders a bunch,
> the chapter pays the shipping, and presto! Instant library. Watch for the
> sale in the early part of the year.
>
> Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
Piet Project for sale. Easy compleation. Fusalage and tail feathers
ready for cover. Spoked wheels on Cleavlands with hydraulic disc
brakes. Gary Price tail wheel. Custom built gas tank, header tank 16
gals. All spruce construction. Beautiful workmanship, show quality.
Low time Continental 85 with prop. Wing to complete. Ribs done. Have
most material to finish including spruce spars for three piece wing.
Have plans for Kaplars or Price's. Only metal fittings to make are wing
attachments. Material needed to finish is some covering and paint.
I'am going fulltime traveling in my RV. Too much trouble to store or
drag around is reason for sale. $8500.00 FIRM. Serious inquires only
please. I'am not desperate. Thanks.
Brad Schultz
brsch(at)afcon.net
941-629-7329
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SPRUCE SOURCE |
My wood is currently en route from westwind hardwoods
Sidney B.C. I was about to order from Brent when I called
Westwind and talked to Jan. He convinced me that he could
sell me douglas fir that would be perfect for my project and that
he personally would hand select from his already excellent
stock, he told me of customers of aircraft stock in both u.s.a.
and foreign countries that were very pleased.
I also bought wood for a friends project and haggled(slang for
getting the price down) him down on marine and a/c grade plywood.
I will keep you posted as to the quality of this wood after I recieve
shipment. The buying of plywood and lumber from the same
source allowed me to justifiy the $250.00 per 1000 bf import tax from
Canada.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SPRUCE SOURCE |
>Yes, I ordered a batch of spruce from Brent about three weeks ago. It
hasn't
>been shipped yet, since I asked him to dry it out a bit for me (sounds like
its
>rather heavy when wet). Its risky buying from a source like this, but you
just
>can't beat the price (he charged me a bit more than $4.00/BF, but far, far
less
>than the cost of certified aircraft spruce). I ordered about 20 BF in 7
foot
>lengths of various thickness, and the shipping (via USPS) came to $26.
Have
>you received wood from him? Can you verify its quality?
>
>So far, I've been using local douglas fir, and local --but expensive--
sitka
>spruce. If Brent's sitka is of the quality that he advertises, I'll
continue
>to use it for shorter pieces where I wish to conserve weight (i.e., tail),
and
>I'll use fir for longerons and spars.
>
>I'll report back here when I receive the lumber from Brent and have had
time to
>work with some and evaluate it. BTW, here's his URL:
>
>http://www.ptialaska.net/~liberty1/asw.html#anchor1
>
>Brent has been busy with the Salmon run lately, but he checks e-mail every
>day. He sells primarily music wood for sound boards (guitars, etc..);
>exceptionally high quality sitka.
>
>--Peter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Epoxy Alternatives.... |
Yes I would like to use Raka epoxy about 30 bucks a gallon.
Iv'e heard that premixing batch with small amount of hardner
example 6parts resin 1 part hardner will thicken increasing vicousity
then adding two more parts hardner when ready to use allows
gap filling and a clear glue without the use of fillers similar
to using t-88, has anyone had experience with this?
Also has anyone used epoxy to glue dacron to wing ribs? or
will the epoxy soften when using iron to shrink cloth and become a mess?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Epoxy Alternatives.... |
> Yes I would like to use Raka epoxy about 30 bucks a gallon.
I used Raka on a strip built canoe with good results. I would
suggest following the instructions and using measuring cups for
mixing. I found the pumps to be rather inaccurate. His prices
are 1/2 of West for epoxy and his glass prices are not too bad
either (at least when I bought a year ago). If you order from
Raka you need to decide what hardeners you want. His normal for
a 3 gallon kit is 2 gallons of resin, 1/2 gallon each of fast and
slow hardeners. Mix the hardeners to control the kick time. They
are all rather slow in a thin film but I did melt the bottom out of
a mixing cup when a blob fired off.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D.J.H." <ve6zh(at)cnnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: what plans were used in this plane? |
Hi Graham,
thanks for the response,yes i did add approx 1/4 inch to the ribs as you
described.
I have all the control surfaces covered now,will start on a wing
next.I'am using ceconite and the Airtech system.from Kiteair at ElkIslannd
airpark. I took the stits course last October at NAIT.
Did you find a new home to park your birds yet?
Talk to you later.. Doug
> From: Graham Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: what plans were used in this plane?
> Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 6:42 AM
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Those ribs you mentioned were patterned after some ribs that had
> been built by another party. The fuselage frame that you have, together
> with a few ribs originally came from a builder north of Edmonton in
> the Morinville area. He sold these parts to a friend of mine who never
> got around to doing any more with the project. When he moved to
> British Columbia about 14 years ago, he gave the pieces to me and
> I, in turn, gave them to my student, Doug Blades. Doug and some of his
> fellow classmates built more ribs using the completed ones as a
> pattern. My rib jig and another would not accept them; in fact the ribs
> on a homebuilt will likely not match those on another a/c unless the same
> jig was used. The most important thing is to have all the ribs
> on a given a/c identical. It doesn't seem to matter a lot if they differ
> slightly from the plan or from those on another airplane of the same
> design. But sometimes one can stumble onto something that improves
> a design:
>
> I once read a letter in the old EAA Experimenter (ca. 1956) in which
> the writer said a friend had made a mistake in laying out his rib jig,
> only to discover it after all the ribs had been made. The upper surface
> curve from the leading edge to the front spar was more rounded, with
> the ordinates about 3/16 inch greater than those on the plan at the
> mid point. He left them this way and his Pietenpol flew better than any
> other that he knew of.
>
> When I built mine, I was aware of this letter---but was too "chicken"
> to deviate from the plans. In retrospect, I wish that I had because my
> son has a Piet that was built in Calgary in 1967 and its ribs are a bit
> more rounded on the front upper surface than the plans indicate. This
> particular a/c is a really good performer with an A65. It climbs better
> with this power than any I have flown, including my own Piet.
>
> Your ribs, as I recall, may have some of this feature. If so, I believe
it
> will be beneficial. How is your project coming along these days?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | re: passenger safety harness |
Hey guys,
I just flipped the fuselage over to complete the top. Today was the first
day I actually got to sit in the fuselage. What a great feeling:) I am ready
to
put the 1/8" plywood stiffener in behind the forward passenger seat. I was
wondering has anyone put a harness type seat belt in the front seat and how
did they connect the harness? Should I put in some type of support or bracing
and will this interfer with the instrument panel? In addition, how did you
connect the front lap belt.
Thanks
-=Ron=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe & Marian Beck <flyretina(at)feist.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kansas Piet builders |
Piet builders in Kansas please let me know who and where you are.
Thanks.
C.J. Beck - Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: passenger safety harness |
Just a thought; I was handling some Tiger Moth fuselages at the Museum
compound last week and noticed that the front cockpit shoulder harness was
attached to a cable fastened between the upper longerons. The cross brace at
that point would be in compression as the harness load is imposed upon it.
The harness attached to the cable with clevises and pulleys so that they
automatically ajusted to the occupants shoulder width. Its probably simpler
than my discription!
On a side note: One fuse was tagged as a PT24. Any one know if the Americans
used Moths for training?
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: PTNPOL(at)aol.com
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 9:19 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: re: passenger safety harness
>Hey guys,
> I just flipped the fuselage over to complete the top. Today was the
first
>day I actually got to sit in the fuselage. What a great feeling:) I am
ready
>to
>put the 1/8" plywood stiffener in behind the forward passenger seat. I was
>wondering has anyone put a harness type seat belt in the front seat and how
>did they connect the harness? Should I put in some type of support or
bracing
>and will this interfer with the instrument panel? In addition, how did you
>connect the front lap belt.
>
> Thanks
> -=Ron=-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Kansas Piet builders |
>Piet builders in Kansas please let me know who and where you are.
>Thanks.
>C.J. Beck - Wichita
>
Joe and Marian, I met a few really nice folks from your State at the
Brodhead fly-in. Dick and Peggy Schaefli (spelling wrong) and e-mail
is Pegndick(at)flinthills.com who have Buzz Baer's Piet project which
I'm told is of excellent workmanship, and in Pretty Prarie, Kansas is
Mike Conklin. I believe he is on this discussion group.
Mike C. Clev. OH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Texas Area PIETS |
Howdy Gang,
Are there any PIET owners / flyers / builders in Texas?
If so, please let me know. Would love to talk to ya and/or
see your plane.
Thanks in advance.
Mike King
Dallas, Texas
(214) 905-9299
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
At least one:
John Greenlee
Bowie, Texas
940 872-5171
940 872-4352
-----Original Message-----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Texas Area PIETS |
>Howdy Gang,
>
>Are there any PIET owners / flyers / builders in Texas?
>
>If so, please let me know. Would love to talk to ya and/or
>see your plane.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Mike King
>Dallas, Texas
>(214) 905-9299
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Jim Sury is doing a nice job on his Continental powered GN-1.
I forget at the moment exactly what city he lives in though.....
And Gary MacArthur is over in Uvalde ? or similar TX.
Yall,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Thanks Mike. I have read alot about YOUR Piet too.
Maybe Jim or Gary will respond as to their exact locations.
I used to work at a radio station in Uvalde several years
ago. My in-laws live about 40 miles north of Uvalde.
Appreciate your input.
Y'all
Mike
>Jim Sury is doing a nice job on his Continental powered GN-1.
>I forget at the moment exactly what city he lives in though.....
>And Gary MacArthur is over in Uvalde ? or similar TX.
>
>Yall,
>Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin McDonald <kevin.mcdonald(at)dev.tivoli.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Michael King wrote:
>
> Howdy Gang,
>
> Are there any PIET owners / flyers / builders in Texas?
>
> If so, please let me know. Would love to talk to ya and/or
> see your plane.
I keep mine at Kitty Hill 77T a few miles north of Austin TX.
ktm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Would like to come by next time I venture
south on I-35. I sometimes take the Georgetown
exit toward Burnet on the way to Leakey.
I have stopped at the old Tim's Airpark....which
I hear may be changing.
I have yet to fly mine. I bought it last December
and still have not had the opportunity to fly it
from Sinton (near Corpus) back to Dallas.
I would like to talk to you about the flying
characteristics of the PIET so I would know
what to expect. If you will leave a phone number
and best time to call I will try to contact you soon.
By the way, I understand there is a PIET being built
in Uvalde.
Thanks again for the response.
Best wishes....
Mike
>Michael King wrote:
>>
>> Howdy Gang,
>>
>> Are there any PIET owners / flyers / builders in Texas?
>>
>> If so, please let me know. Would love to talk to ya and/or
>> see your plane.
>
>I keep mine at Kitty Hill 77T a few miles north of Austin TX.
>ktm
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Peck <crusader(at)thegrid.net> |
Brad, Selling your labor of love to go RVing full time ? Somebody smack
him !!! When I lived in Florida I dealt with hundreds of people
RVing. Most wished that they had kept their home and work shop and just
traveled for half a year at a time. But have fun anyway !!
Brad Schultz wrote:
> Piet Project for sale. Easy compleation. Fusalage and tail feathers
> ready for cover. Spoked wheels on Cleavlands with hydraulic disc
> brakes. Gary Price tail wheel. Custom built gas tank, header tank 16
>
> gals. All spruce construction. Beautiful workmanship, show quality.
> Low time Continental 85 with prop. Wing to complete. Ribs done.
> Have
> most material to finish including spruce spars for three piece wing.
> Have plans for Kaplars or Price's. Only metal fittings to make are
> wing
> attachments. Material needed to finish is some covering and paint.
> I'am going fulltime traveling in my RV. Too much trouble to store or
> drag around is reason for sale. $8500.00 FIRM. Serious inquires only
>
> please. I'am not desperate. Thanks.
>
> Brad Schultz
> brsch(at)afcon.net
> 941-629-7329
--
Check out Crusader Toys @
http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LanhamOS(at)aol.com |
My wife thinks I am on a net with some conscientous people, as she
counts the number each morning. I think it is great about all the cooperation
on so many topics with advice, hints about sources, etc. The discussion on
airfoils today was great. I would love to have been at Broadhead. I have tried
to access the website, but my service has a supply of gremlins. I will try my
machine at the office lab today,
I wondered about trim when I first looked at drawings of the Piet. One of
my friends has Flybaby, and I asked him about trim. He said it didn't seem
important in flight, even when fuel is burned off.
My suggestion would be similar to the one today on the net, except for
the winglets. Look at prewar B series T Crafts. They had a trim below the
elevator, which was like a small extra wing, controlled from the cockpit under
the seat. It was bout 4 inches long, and maybe two wide. I am sure someone
could duplicate the control levels. Am also interested in how the elevator
crank was installed.
I am writing an article for an aviation mag about the Piet, lead line is
"What is 70 years old and Still going strong like the Energy Bunny". What
shall I write?
Dr. Orville Lanham, Bellevue, Ne.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
-----Original Message-----
From: LanhamOS(at)aol.com <LanhamOS(at)aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 9:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re:Trim
> My wife thinks I am on a net with some conscientous people, as she
>counts the number each morning. I think it is great about all the
cooperation
>on so many topics with advice, hints about sources, etc. The discussion on
>airfoils today was great. I would love to have been at Broadhead. I have
tried
>to access the website, but my service has a supply of gremlins. I will try
my
>machine at the office lab today,
>
> I wondered about trim when I first looked at drawings of the Piet. One
of
>my friends has Flybaby, and I asked him about trim. He said it didn't seem
>important in flight, even when fuel is burned off.
>
> My suggestion would be similar to the one today on the net, except for
>the winglets. Look at prewar B series T Crafts. They had a trim below the
>elevator, which was like a small extra wing, controlled from the cockpit
under
>the seat. It was bout 4 inches long, and maybe two wide. I am sure someone
>could duplicate the control levels. Am also interested in how the elevator
>crank was installed.
>
> I am writing an article for an aviation mag about the Piet, lead line
is
>"What is 70 years old and Still going strong like the Energy Bunny". What
>shall I write?
>
> Dr. Orville Lanham, Bellevue, Ne.
>
Hi Orville What a great topic! I know most Piets will last longer than the
energy bunny. I'll try to collect all my early Canadian Piet info and pass
it on to you.
Not for a day or so. I'm leaving tomorrow for an airshow at Thunder Bay Ont.
I get to travel in the Mk 11 Harvard! Grin! The Cornell and the Tiger left
today as they are so much slower, almost Piet speed.
John Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Michael,
I am over near Taylor, TX. Northeast of Austin about 20 miles.
Our airstrip just got on the San Antonio sectional so if you are ever in the
area, look for Macho Grande airport. Right now I have a Piet under
construction (working on the gear). If you are ever flying from Corpus to the
Dallas area, feel free to drop in. We should be right on the way. 2500' grass,
north-south. we are 2.5 miles from T74 on a 155 heading.
Regrds.
Bob Seibert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve W <vistin(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Our new email address |
ammiki(at)quezon.com, Elmbridge(at)aol.com, gardening(at)theoak.com,
gdmorgan(at)vision.net.au, GrizzlyTec(at)aol.com, home-ed(at)world.std.com,
sam(at)maas.net, kc5rif(at)juno.com, Piet(at)byu.edu, rdegor(at)bellsouth.net,
Shirley Ann Wee , woodworking(at)theoak.com
We have swiched providers and heres our new email address.
vistin(at)earthlink.net
Write soon
Steve, Nathan & Emelita W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | The Endicotts <rasala(at)brutus.bright.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> Jim Sury is doing a nice job on his Continental powered GN-1.
> I forget at the moment exactly what city he lives in though.....
> And Gary MacArthur is over in Uvalde ? or similar TX.
>
> Yall,
> Mike C.
Hi,
I'm getting ready to purchase the Pietenpol plans for my first homebuilt
project. I live in Chillicothe, Ohio. I would love to take a look at
your plane sometime if I get up your way. Congratulations on Oshkosh.
I hope it's true that a person with "average Skills" can build a
Pietenpol! Because I'm About as average as you get.
thanks, Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu |
| Subject: | inexpensive wood source |
To all of you looking for good wood at a good price:
Try R.A.W. LLC. My partner Dave and I got enough good quality spruce
for two
piets at a very reasonable price. We did all of our contacts with him
by email. His
address is: rawllc(at)innercite.com
Send him an inquiry to find out what he has available, and the price.
We were very pleased, almost stunned at what we got for the price he
charged.
John in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | The Endicotts <rasala(at)brutus.bright.net> |
| Subject: | Ohio Pietenpol Builders |
Hi All,
I'm new to the group. I live in Chillicothe, Ohio and wouldlike to know
if there are any Piet builders in the Central Ohio area. Or anywhere in
Ohio for that matter. I'm getting ready to start my Pietenpol project
and am a first time builder.
Thanks, Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wittman Tailwind List |
Stevee,
Please put me on the Wittman Tailwind list.
Back ('way back) in 1956 a friend of mine visited Steve Wittman,
had a ride with him and bought a set of plans for the Tailwind. He
never used them and gave them to me in 1982. He was mightily
impressed with the airplane---and its designer.
My friend's name was Maurice Fry. He and John Davids had built
a Ford A -powered Pietenpol at Hartney, Manitoba in 1931 when
he was seventeen years old and John was only sixteen! That air-
craft's registration was CF-ARH and the records indicate that it
was the very first Pietenpol to be registered in Canada. Perhaps
not the first one built, but the first "legal" one by virtue of being of-
ficially registered. Both Maurice and John flew for decades. Both
are now gone from this earth, due to natural causes.
So this is yet another case where a Pietenpol builder has shown a
great interest in the Tailwind. I doubt I will ever build one (because
of, as Bernard Pietenpol would say, "too many birthdays!"), but I
sure am interested in the design.
Cheers,
Graham Hansen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Woodworking book |
Bruce,
Your EAA chapter president or secretary will receive notice by mail. Also,
you could probably call HQ in Osh and they could tell you. I'm sorry I can't
pin it down more closely, but it seems like it was in November...or maybe
early in the year, certainly by February.
Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Bob,
Thanks for the invite. I will make it a point to fly the
PIET or drive over to see you. Is your a "true to the
plans" Piet, a variation of the original plans, or more
like a GN-1?
Good luck on the construction.
Best wishes,
Mike
Dallas
mikek(at)nstar.net
>Michael,
>I am over near Taylor, TX. Northeast of Austin about 20 miles.
>Our airstrip just got on the San Antonio sectional so if you are ever in the
>area, look for Macho Grande airport. Right now I have a Piet under
>construction (working on the gear). If you are ever flying from Corpus to the
>Dallas area, feel free to drop in. We should be right on the way. 2500'
grass,
>north-south. we are 2.5 miles from T74 on a 155 heading.
>Regrds.
>Bob Seibert
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>Hi,
>I'm getting ready to purchase the Pietenpol plans for my first homebuilt
>project. I live in Chillicothe, Ohio. I would love to take a look at
>your plane sometime if I get up your way. Congratulations on Oshkosh.
>I hope it's true that a person with "average Skills" can build a
>Pietenpol! Because I'm About as average as you get.
>thanks, Larry
Larry- It's TRUE !!! Your first step is a good one: look at as many Piets
as you can and take pictures, notes, measurements, hints, etc. because
every guy has something unique they learned and can pass that along
to you. Get the videos from Kim Stricker (see Grant's BPA website
for Piets), try to make it to the Piet fly in at Brodhead, and the best
money you can ever spend is on the Tony Bingelis books from sold
thru EAA to answer your questions when the experts aren't around.
The other catch is that if you build some parts exactly like the plans
show, they will flat out not fit. There are some metal fittings with
'ears' on them that with another 1/2" of length can mean the difference
between getting a bolt in the hole or not.
To answer your question- yes, you may visit my Piet on one or
two days notice and if you'd like I know of several other Piets in this
general area: Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy at Barber Airport in Alliance,OH,
Earl Myers has an almost ready to fly Sky Scout at his house
in Louisville, OH, Will Graff has a well-flown Model A Air Camper at
Wadsworth Municipal Airport near Wadsworth, OH, and Dan Shotwell is
building a Piet in his basement in Litchfield, OH.
Welcome and
best wishes !
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joe czaplicki <fishin(at)pop.wwa.com> |
Just finished welding up my split axle landing gear and I thought I'd share
some of my findings. Since this is my first project everything is new to me
but the following has helped a lot. Get the EAA video on welding, it really
clears the mysteries on gas welding. The welding book is also a must if
you're doing your own welding. One of my woodworking tools is a power mitre
saw. If you have one, loose the blade and get an abrasive cut off wheel.
It's great on 4130 tubing. In read Hamiltons Piet directory is a sketch by
Bill Rewey of a simple to build landing gear jig. I build one and it works
great.When knotching the tubing the cut off wheel took care of the ruff cut
and a Dremel tool with an small sanding drum quickly finished the job.
After just a short time of practice welding, I impress myself with the
finished job. 4130 is a pleasure to weld. Hopes this helps some of you who
haven't reached this stage yet.
Mike C is right about taking pictures of other Piets. I've almost filled an
album and you know, after you get back home you ask yourself, "why didn't I
also get a picture of that other detail". There's always something you
forgot. I refer to the pictures as much as the plans to help clear up some
foggy detail.
Joe C
Zion, Ill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | The Endicotts <rasala(at)brutus.bright.net> |
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >I'm getting ready to purchase the Pietenpol plans for my first homebuilt
> >project. I live in Chillicothe, Ohio. I would love to take a look at
> >your plane sometime if I get up your way. Congratulations on Oshkosh.
> >I hope it's true that a person with "average Skills" can build a
> >Pietenpol! Because I'm About as average as you get.
> >thanks, Larry
>
> Larry- It's TRUE !!! Your first step is a good one: look at as many Piets
> as you can and take pictures, notes, measurements, hints, etc. because
> every guy has something unique they learned and can pass that along
> to you. Get the videos from Kim Stricker (see Grant's BPA website
> for Piets), try to make it to the Piet fly in at Brodhead, and the best
> money you can ever spend is on the Tony Bingelis books from sold
> thru EAA to answer your questions when the experts aren't around.
> The other catch is that if you build some parts exactly like the plans
> show, they will flat out not fit. There are some metal fittings with
> 'ears' on them that with another 1/2" of length can mean the difference
> between getting a bolt in the hole or not.
> To answer your question- yes, you may visit my Piet on one or
> two days notice and if you'd like I know of several other Piets in this
> general area: Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy at Barber Airport in Alliance,OH,
> Earl Myers has an almost ready to fly Sky Scout at his house
> in Louisville, OH, Will Graff has a well-flown Model A Air Camper at
> Wadsworth Municipal Airport near Wadsworth, OH, and Dan Shotwell is
> building a Piet in his basement in Litchfield, OH.
> Welcome and
> best wishes !
>
> Mike C.
Thanks for the info. The next time I get ready to head up to your area
I'll make sure to give you a heads up a few days in advance.
Once again, thanks
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
Went down to Everett Millett's place yesterday with my digital
camera and brought back a bunch more pics. On my Piet site, look
under the image collection/Everett Millett's list, they are the top
10 or so pics on that list.
His plane is coming along great. It's finally up out of the basement
and into the hangar he built beside his house (there a small field
out there he's going to doze over before winter - about 800-900 ft or
so with excellent tree clearance). The tail is nearly complete, and I
even got a chance to try the plane on for size:
http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/acimg/EM-Richard.jpg
What fun!
http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet
Richard
p.s. For those of you who are downloading only the new pics, they are
here: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/acimg/new/
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
Does anyone know exactly where Barber Field in Alliance, Ohio is? I was
born and raised there, but haven't been back there for about ten years!
dms
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Great pictures Richard. Thanks once again for this contribution.
For my understanding of many of the details, your images are invaluable.
Best Regards,
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com.I.hate.junk.email> |
I would just like to thank you and tell you how much I appricatre your
pictures and the help they are and will be in the future....
Keep up the good work.
Thanks again,
Greg Yotz
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> Went down to Everett Millett's place yesterday with my digital
> camera and brought back a bunch more pics. On my Piet site, look
> under the image collection/Everett Millett's list, they are the top
> 10 or so pics on that list.
>
> His plane is coming along great. It's finally up out of the basement
> and into the hangar he built beside his house (there a small field
> out there he's going to doze over before winter - about 800-900 ft or
> so with excellent tree clearance). The tail is nearly complete, and I
> even got a chance to try the plane on for size:
> http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/acimg/EM-Richard.jpg
> What fun!
>
> http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet
>
> Richard
> p.s. For those of you who are downloading only the new pics, they are
> here: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder/piet/acimg/new/
>
> Richard DeCosta
> Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
> Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
> Ph: 207-842-2064
> Fax: 207-842-2239
> PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
Hi Mike,
Please stop on by if you are in the area. My number here is 512-365-8918.
Yes, this Piet is a more or less "true to plans" long fuselage version. Its
wood but with Cub type gear and spoke wheels. (I actually had it setting on
the mains last weekend.)
Right now it is back off the gear so I can clean up the welds, etc.
I am trying to put together some mechanical disc brakes. I just need them for
landing at paved strips once in a while. Does anybody out there have any ideas
on a simple mechanical caliper design?
Regards,
Bob Seibert
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Texas Area PIETS |
>I am trying to put together some mechanical disc brakes. I just need them for
>landing at paved strips once in a while. Does anybody out there have any
ideas
>on a simple mechanical caliper design?
>
>Regards,
>Bob Seibert
Hi Bob
Look on http://www.inscorp.com/~mandrson/ they have a neat set of manual
disk calipers and they are only $25.00. The owner Mike Anderson is
e-mailing me the info on recommended disk diameter, the recommended mount.
I will let you know it when I receive it.
Thanks
Robert Roach
Dullass (Dallas) Texas.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Polish Aur Disaster |
I hope this doesn't offend anyone- but it was too funny not to pass
on- perhaps it should read "any bueracracy" rather than just the
polish one! :)
Enjoy!
Polish Air Disaster
A small two-seater Cessna 152 plane crashed into a cemetery
early this afternoon in central Poland. Polish search and rescue
workers have recovered 300 bodies so far and expect that number to
climb as digging continues into the evening.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Hannan <hannan(at)vmicro.com> |
Pietenpol Discussion , Mom & Dad ,
"Kerslake, Murray" ,
Greg Yotz <***gyachts(at)kans.com***>, don ,
Christian Herman ,
Christian Herman , Art
Have switched providers and here's my new email address. hannan(at)vmicro.com
Thanks Ken Hannan
Have switched providers and here's my new email address.
Thanks Ken Hannan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patcoolnet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Am building an all wood Piet that will use an A65 Continental. Has anyone
used Probond Poyurethane glue in wood planes? How does it compare with other
glues? Also need to know how much rudder offset in this plane. Is there
anyone in the Portland, OR, Vancouver, WA area building or has Piet? Please
contact me at Patcoolnet(at)AOL.com.
Would like to hear from you. Am 72 years old, not much time left, so hurry!
(ha, ha)
Regards:
Bud
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
I heard Vi Kapler state that a 3/8 inch washout would give a gentler
stall. I also stated that a 1 inch dihedral looked nicer but didn't
really effect perfomance.
>Maybe A little wash out in each wing tip would help to keep the entire
wing
>from stalling out at the same time ?
>
>
>>If you want to compare the Piet airtfoil to others you need to get
data on
>the Piet
>>airfoil. You can try to get Dr. Patrick Hanley to run the coordinates
thru
>his
>>Visual Airfoil program. He ran another airfoil (the one on my Howard
DGA)
>and was
>>very helpful. His E-Mail is hanley(at)hanleyinnovations.com
>>
>>I've seen Piets with different airfoils and never saw any real
improvement.
>Of all
>>the Piets I've flown (one "A", one corvair and one A-65) all had the
>original
>>airfoil and none had bad stall charicteristics. All were a blast to
fly!
>The "A" was
>>the best!
>>
>>David Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I spoke with Harry Riblett at OshKosh this year at he says the
airfoil
>>> on the Piet has a sharp stall characteristic. By this, he is
meaning
>>> that there is very little burble transistion from being attached air
>>> flow to the stalled un-attached air flow. He scared me a little
>>> by stating he knew of one person who had stall-spun in
>>> a piet, survived unscathed, and proceded to do it a second time. I
>>> assumed he survived since he said he did not indicate otherwise.
>>>
>>> He recommended to me an airfoil in his book, GA Aifoils, the number
>>> of which I think was 30615 or 15630 or something like it (my notes
are
>>> at home). When I plotted a 60 inch chord based on this airfoil,
and
>>> compared it to the Piet airfoil, the trailing edge top surface for
the
>>> last 12 inches or so is the same, the top surface for the leading
edge
>>> for the first 6 inches or so is the same, but the remaining portion
>>> is much different. The top surface is 2 inches higher and the
>>> lower surface is about 2 inches lower at the thickest portion (yes,
>>> the thickness is about 9 inches verses the Piet at 5 inches). A
little
>>> aggressive to making it a replacement. Center of lift, lift
>>> coefficent, L/D ratio, etc... comparisons to Piet are a little
>>> difficult without having the data for the Piet airfoil. I believe
>>> this project stems into new design. A test pilot I am not.
>>>
>>> His book is very infomative with insites to airfoil design, so the
>>> purchase was not a waste. It runs about $17 for it from EAA.
>>>
>>> I spoke with Warren Wiggett who drove to Broadhead this year and
>>> he had modified his Piet, which first flew in July I think, with
>>> advise he received from Harry. His modification was to add
>>> thickness to the leading edge between the 3inch to 12 inch area
>>> of about 1/4 inch and also to the lower edge in the 2inch to 5 inch
>>> area of about 1/8 inch. He did so with plywood sheeting and
>>> says that the test pilot "felt" that there was some improvement
>>> in takeoff performance, and said his cruise was about 70mph.
>>>
>>> I believe there may be better knowledge of airfoils today, Harry
>>> being a very good, general aviation supporter who has such
>>> expertise, which could be applied to the Piet design.
>>>
>>> "Modifications - The Bad And The Ugly" at OshKosh
>>> this year (different aero-nut engineer guy) told me that any
>>> modification has potential to change any and every other
>>> characteristic of the airplane, making it a fully un-tested,
>>> possible killing machine. He had very few examples, but
>>> none the less scary enough to leave an impression.
>>>
>>> His basic premise was - if not broke, don't fix it.
>>>
>>> ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > Last time I wrote, I was looking at drawings of the Sky Scout,
with
>ideas
>>> > about using an A75 for power. My spouse caught me studying those
>drawings and
>>> > said something to the effect that "Wait a minute! There's only
one
>seat!"
>>> > End of consideration. Ergo, I'm working on my long delayed
AirCamper,
>to be
>>> > powered by the self-same A75. I've now glued up the rudder, and
if I
>do say
>>> > so myself, it don't look bad...at least for a first effort at
aircraft
>>> > cabinetry..
>>> >
>>> > Now for the poser. Given that BP designed a good airfoil for the
>AirCamper,
>>> > there have been advances in aerodynamics, and I have to wonder
about
>using a
>>> > bit more modern airfoil...the 4412 comes easily to mind. Has
anyone
>any
>>> > actual experience with this? Is there some great advantage to
using
>the
>>> > modified Eiffel, or is there some great disadvantage to using the
4412.
>It
>>> > seems that I might get a little more lift and a tad more speed
from the
>4412,
>>> > but I am not an engineer. While I appreciate the purist
philosophy,
>and
>>> > intend to stick closely to plans, (BP 1933), I think it's
appropriate
>to
>>> > explore some minor changes to make minor improvements in
performance
>and or
>>> > utility. I'd sure appreciate input from the group. Thanx!
>>> >
Cooley
>>> >
>ADonJr(at)AOL.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> /--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
>>> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
>>>
>>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>>>
>>> David Scott
>>> Design Engineer
>>> Komatsu Mining Systems
>>>
>>> David Scott
>>> Design Engineer
>>> Komatsu Mining Systems
>>> 2300 NE Adams St Work: 309-672-7706
>>> U.S.A.
>>> Additional Information:
>>> Last Name Scott
>>> First Name David
>>> Version 2.1
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>**
>>David B.Schober, CPE
>>Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
>>Fairmont State College
>>National Aerospace Education Center
>>Rt. 3 Box 13
>>Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
>>(304) 842-8300
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Bud,
I, too am in the early construction phase of my Piet, and our chapter designee
recommended using Pliobond II glue. This is good quality carpenter's glue and
easy to use. My tests broke the wood, not the joint every time. You might
want to check this out...it works for me.
Don Cooley (ADonJr(at)AOL.com)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Bud,
Sorry, it's Titebond II glue. Not Pliobond...Silly me! Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Speaking of tests, are there any strength tests that I could run on
my 'practice' rib to make sure I'm building correctly? It would be
nice to see a rib pass a stress test of some kind before I get in and
fly away. :)
Richard
> Bud,
> I, too am in the early construction phase of my Piet, and our
> chapter designee recommended using Pliobond II glue. This is good
> quality carpenter's glue and easy to use. My tests broke the wood,
> not the joint every time. You might want to check this out...it
> works for me. Don Cooley (ADonJr(at)AOL.com)
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Richard,
I'm not an expert on this, and I'm sure there'll be more input, but the one
comment I've heard, universally made about Pietenpol's airplanes is that
they're over-built, and "strong as a bridge." If you're building to the
plans, it'll be strong enough.
Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
Richard,
Is your page up? My attempts to connect are being denied. I'll try some
more, tho.
Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: NW Area Piets |
I used aerolite and resorsonal (sp).
Rudder offset on my plane is 1/2", I would consider a little more however,
perhaps 5/8".
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
Patcoolnet(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 1998 11:17 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NW Area Piets
Am building an all wood Piet that will use an A65 Continental. Has anyone
used Probond Poyurethane glue in wood planes? How does it compare with
other
glues? Also need to know how much rudder offset in this plane. Is there
anyone in the Portland, OR, Vancouver, WA area building or has Piet? Please
contact me at Patcoolnet(at)AOL.com.
Would like to hear from you. Am 72 years old, not much time left, so hurry!
(ha, ha)
Regards:
Bud
________________________________________________________________________________
Just a story to share here:
I took my piet to Idaho (210 miles) for a family reunion three weeks ago.
Had a great time and gave rides all day long. I didn't leave myself enough
daylight to get home (weather looked bad anyway) and so I had to leave my
plane there. I figured I could come back up the next week and get it.
Well, one week turned to two and two to three.... Anyway I finally got a
friend to fly me back to Burley (BYI) in his RV-6A. What a beautiful
aircraft. Anyway after getting upsidown a couple of times en route, we
arrived after 1:10 in the air. I realized that I left home without my
goggles, thought I was hosed, but my brother in law had a spare pair I
borrowed and off I flew. 3.5 hours and one fuel stop later I arrived home!
It was a blast, but quite an eye opener. I didn't save any time in the piet
over driving, but it was a better view!
I went flying agian today and discovered something cool about the piet. I
don't have any trim in my airplane except for throttle. I was playing
around after our discussion on downthrust, just to verify what I said about
pitch changes and power settings. I found that sweet spot by adjusting the
throttle, and verified that I could let go of the stick and fly level. I
kept my feet on the rudders for directional control and discovered that it
would hold altitude just fine. Then I tried it. I put both hands straight
out either side of the cockpit! Look maw! No hands! The nose pitched up
and I began to climb. I expected the nose to drop however and grabbed the
stick again. With my new found knowledge I leveled off and tried again.
Sure enough I could make the plane climb by sticking my hands and arms out.
Hum. What could do the reverse... I tried all kinds of different hand
positions then realized something. I hadn't tried the entry flop. I gave
it a nudge, and the nose dipped! So here I was flying around the
country-side flapping like a bird, going up and down without touching the
stick! What a rush! (What a nut!) So I figure I can control pitch, what
about roll? One arm didn't do much, but both arms and as much leaning to
one side as I could do produced enough drag to bank the plane! Cool! Think
of all the time I could have saved by omiting the control stick and cables!
This went on for 20 minutes and I came down with yet another new lesson in
open cockpit flight.. Not to mention that silly grin again.
Steve E. 69 hours and having fun....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
It was down for a little while Sat night/Sun morning, but its up now.
Richard
> Richard,
> Is your page up? My attempts to connect are being denied. I'll try
> some more, tho. Don Cooley
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com.I.hate.junk.email> |
That's the kinda 'fun flying' I looking forward to.... When I'm flying and in
a
hurry I take a commercial flight... When I'm flying and trying to enjoy it I
like'slow and low'..... and there isn't any better way than in open
cockpit....
Greg Yotz
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
> Just a story to share here:
> .....
...........
> This went on for 20 minutes and I came down with yet another new lesson in
> open cockpit flight.. Not to mention that silly grin again.
>
> Steve E. 69 hours and having fun....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Great story Steve!
Had a grizzled old instructor who taught me how to fly my Luscombe with the
throttle and the doors, and how to use the doors as airbrakes for really short
landings!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patcoolnet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Steve:
Which engine are you using on your Piet??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
What is the suggested max gross on an Air Camper?
http://www.pietenpol.com/plans.htm lists empty
weight as 630 and useful load as 385 lb. It also
lists fuel capacity as 10-18 gallons. I am assuming
that useful load is what you have when you are done
filling the tanks.
I am still shopping for what to build. It is now
down to the Pietenpol, a few Fisher designs, and
the Zenith 601 HDS (I can be a tin knocker). I am
guessing that the 630 lbs comes from a model A engine
and that a Subaru would be a lot lighter. What is a
realistic empty weight with a corvair or soob engine?
The reason that I ask is that I weigh about 240 and have
sons that I would like to fly with. They are samll now
but it would be nice to take them up with me when I get
done building.
Dave
Retsof, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta) |
| Subject: | radial engine source |
While reading my Piet manual (from Don P.) I saw a picture of a
Pietenpol with a radial engine (Kinner?). It looks GREAT! and I'm
sure it sounds great too. Since I havent got an engine yet... anyone
know of a source for a radial for a piet? or just a link with any
radial engine info at all ? (I have NONE). Would be neat to have some
info on my site for those curious folks like me.
Richard
p.s. Yes, my site is down (*%&$!!). I am upgrading the OS and server
tomorrow, so it shouldnt crash nearly as often.
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: what plans were used in this plane? |
Doug:
Glad to hear you are coming right along with your Piet. Would like to see it
someday---perhaps this fall. Could you provide your address
and phone number again? Somehow it got lost in the move to Cam-rose. I would
give you a call prior to coming down to see if a visit
would be convenient.
Went flying in my Piet yesterday. Gorgeous day ---about 85 degrees
F. Not many days around here when one can fly a Piet in shirt sleeves,
but yesterday was one of them. I moved my hangar to a friend's place
just north of New Sarepta and the Piet is now based there. Do you have an
airstrip nearby---in case I take a notion to fly over to see you?
Keep in touch.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)pop.primenet.com |
| Subject: | RE: Barber Field |
Its" Barber-Alliance Airport (2D1)"
And you can send email to Forrest Barber who runs the place at: fbarber(at)alliancelink.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)pop.primenet.com |
| Subject: | RE: Barber Field |
Its" Barber-Alliance Airport (2D1)"
And you can send email to Forrest Barber who runs the place at: fbarber(at)alliancelink.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
SteveE. wrote: So here I was flying around the
>country-side flapping like a bird, going up and down without touching
the stick! What a rush! (What a nut!) So I figure I can control pitch,
what
>about roll? One arm didn't do much, but both arms and as much leaning
to one side as I could do produced enough drag to bank the plane! Cool!
SteveE ! Great story in fun and aerodynamics ! After
playing with this
same 'flight configuration' I found that I could wave at people on the
ground and safely circle their house with both arms
waving outside !
The Pietenpol is a wonderful design. Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
>Am building an all wood Piet that will use an A65 Continental. Has
anyone>used Probond Poyurethane glue in wood planes? How does it compare
with other>glues? Also need to know how much rudder offset in this plane.
Is there>anyone in the Portland, OR, Vancouver, WA area
>Bud
>
Bud- Try Craig Aho who's a Naval Shipyard Carpenter building his
SECOND Pietenpol at the moment. He is in the "I can build this in
a one car garage Club" like myself and SteveE in Provo.
Craig Aho
23307 45th Ave West
Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
425-778-7650
Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
I am Curious, Don, but a carpenter glue would be a great alternative to epoxy!
Do you know if it is as water proof as epoxy?
ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
> Bud,
> I, too am in the early construction phase of my Piet, and our chapter designee
> recommended using Pliobond II glue. This is good quality carpenter's glue and
> easy to use. My tests broke the wood, not the joint every time. You might
> want to check this out...it works for me.
> Don Cooley (ADonJr(at)AOL.com)
--
/--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
|scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
title: Design Engineer
tel;work: 309-672-7706
tel;fax: 309-672-7753
tel;home: not posted
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: NW Area Piets |
A-65
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
Patcoolnet(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 1998 11:30 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NW Area Piets
Steve:
Which engine are you using on your Piet??
________________________________________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:36 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Intercom
Steve-
I spent the past few weeks giving tons of rides as you have been doing.
Was wondering if you use an intercom to see how your passengers
are liking their ride or not ? I thought the wind noise would mess up
using my 9V intercom/headset deal but with the foam sleeves over the
mics it doesn't pose any problems. (unless someone hangs their
head out in the wind) Do you have the basic controls hooked up
in front for pilots/enthusiast's to get a feel of the Piet ?
Did you notice how with full fuel and an adult passenger that there is
not much 'float' left in the Piet at touchdown like when you are solo ?
I've been asking my passengers to lean to the right on landings so I
can line up better on final and round out. Seems to help.
You can post all of this if you want on the discussion group, I just
don't want to seem like a 'hog' always commenting, etc.
ps- Did you know that scripture endorses flying in Pietenpols ??
'Lo, I am with you always. See ?? God never mentions being
with you when high, does he ?
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:36 AM
Steve-
I spent the past few weeks giving tons of rides as you have been doing.
Was wondering if you use an intercom to see how your passengers
are liking their ride or not ? I thought the wind noise would mess up
using my 9V intercom/headset deal but with the foam sleeves over the
mics it doesn't pose any problems. (unless someone hangs their
head out in the wind) Do you have the basic controls hooked up
in front for pilots/enthusiast's to get a feel of the Piet ?
Did you notice how with full fuel and an adult passenger that there is
not much 'float' left in the Piet at touchdown like when you are solo ?
I've been asking my passengers to lean to the right on landings so I
can line up better on final and round out. Seems to help.
You can post all of this if you want on the discussion group, I just
don't want to seem like a 'hog' always commenting, etc.
ps- Did you know that scripture endorses flying in Pietenpols ??
'Lo, I am with you always. See ?? God never mentions being
with you when high, does he ?
Mike C.
Mike, I had to forward this like you suggested, as I think is would be of
interest to others. And I'm sure that you are not hogging the list. I'd
feel different if we had trouble with too many messages, but as of now only
a few of the 120 participants... participate. Glad to hear about the
intercom working out. I have not used anything except earplugs for most of
my flights. Most people are so wrapped up in the experience they forget how
to express themselves! Actually I haven't an intercom or a headset adapter
yet.
I have noticed what you mention about no floating with a full load. My
first few landings were pretty hard, until I decided to come in with some
extra speed, or touch off the round out with a little power. Slips work
well to get the front seat occupant out of the line of site of the runway.
I love to slip. Never had a plane that would do it as well. I do have my
heavier passegers keep their arms inside until we reach altitude. The extra
drag kills climb performance. I also had one pass just decide to stick both
arms out just as I started my flare. It caused me to dump it on before I
expected.
Three more young eagles Saturday, and some good memories.
Steve E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Congratulations to both of you guys for the rides that you have given to
folks who would not otherwise know what drives us to build these
things....especially the "young eagles". Mentoring at its' finest guys.
As for Michael "hogging" the space....I learn a little more with ever
related experience, so keep going Michael.
Best Regards,
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: radial engine source |
Richard,
Here's a link to a radial engine page on the BPA website:
http://users.aol.com/~gmaclaren/hci.html
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
David,
According to the label, Titebond II "passes the ANSI type II water resistance
testing." Our chapter designee built the wings for his Wagabond using this
glue and has had no problems. I am sealing my structure with three coats of
Varathane which increases the water resistance, further. I probably would not
build a seaplane/amphibian with this glue, but for Pietenpol use it is plenty
strong, (it broke wood in all my tests), and has adequate moisture resistance.
Of course, I'm still listening to the information and experiences of others.
Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FW: Intercom |
I got my first ride this year at Broadhead with Bill Rewey. He has the
front seat controls completely hooked up and he provides great insites to
the feel of the airplane. To say it feels a lot like a Aerononca 7AC would
be a close statement.
To say it was a blast is an understatement. There is no real way to talk to
each other without an intercom, something Bill did not have set up.
David Scott 8/31/98
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:36 AM
> To: Steve(at)byu.edu
> Subject: Intercom
>
> Steve-
>
> I spent the past few weeks giving tons of rides as you have been doing.
> Was wondering if you use an intercom to see how your passengers
> are liking their ride or not ? I thought the wind noise would mess up
> using my 9V intercom/headset deal but with the foam sleeves over the
> mics it doesn't pose any problems. (unless someone hangs their
> head out in the wind) Do you have the basic controls hooked up
> in front for pilots/enthusiast's to get a feel of the Piet ?
> Did you notice how with full fuel and an adult passenger that there is
> not much 'float' left in the Piet at touchdown like when you are solo ?
> I've been asking my passengers to lean to the right on landings so I
> can line up better on final and round out. Seems to help.
> You can post all of this if you want on the discussion group, I just
> don't want to seem like a 'hog' always commenting, etc.
>
> ps- Did you know that scripture endorses flying in Pietenpols ??
>
> 'Lo, I am with you always. See ?? God never mentions being
> with you when high, does he ?
>
> Mike C.
--
/--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
|scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
title: Design Engineer
tel;work: 309-672-7706
tel;fax: 309-672-7753
tel;home: not posted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
I'd want to do some long-term tests with this stuff before using it in a
plane. Two or three years ago, there were some comments about
the would-be waterproof carpenters glues ... well, somewhere or
other; I lose track of what appeared in a magazine, what floated
through a mailing list, etc. Anyway, some people found them little
if any better than normal carpenter's glues, prone to come apart
when really used in moist conditions. Others reported better results.
No one seemed to know what caused the difference.
One neighbor of mine who builds wood ultralights and parts as a
retirement business swears by the polyurethane glues, but again I've
heard mixed results with them. Wooden Boat panned them for use
in their field. One variable clearly is clamping pressure, to which they
seem pretty sensitive, but there may be other problems.
I really hate to work with resorcinol, which always makes me think
I should stay out of coal mines unless wearing a respirator (to say
nothing of being awfully finicky about your joints), but the more I think
about it the more I suspect it is still the way to go.
Owen Davies
>Do you know if it is as water proof as epoxy?
>> I, too am in the early construction phase of my Piet, and our chapter
designee
>> recommended using Pliobond II glue. This is good quality carpenter's
glue and
>> easy to use. My tests broke the wood, not the joint every time. You
might
>> want to check this out...it works for me.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
Ive read that Piet's can get off the ground in as little as 150 ft,
but what distance is needed to clear a 50 ft. obstacle?
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
Give yourself as much runway as you can. I have flow in density altitudes
of over 10000' and the standard day numbers, and rules of thumb can get you
stuck in the middle of your 50' obstacle if you push it. You also have to
take into consideration the wind and runway slope.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
Richard DeCosta
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 8:51 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: clearance?
Ive read that Piet's can get off the ground in as little as 150 ft,
but what distance is needed to clear a 50 ft. obstacle?
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | Check out Sport Aviation! |
I got the latest edition of Sport Aviation in the mail yesterday. On page
66 is a picture of an oil painting by George A. Grant titled "First Flight
of the Piet". Check it out. Very nice. Worth scanning as wallpaper (hint,
hint).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Sport Aviation! |
That would be really nice wallpaper. Now all I need is a scanner. Or
someone to scan it and send it to me. jas
>I got the latest edition of Sport Aviation in the mail yesterday. On page
>66 is a picture of an oil painting by George A. Grant titled "First Flight
>of the Piet". Check it out. Very nice. Worth scanning as wallpaper (hint,
> hint).
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Yes I bought some of the polyurethane glue at the local Wal-Mart.
it seemed strong enough, previously I had talked to a man that imports a
similar glue and he says that it doesn't have gap fill ability.
I think I have read where a very skilled designer and builder is using the
glue but my personal experience is that the glue in gaps foams
up like window insulating foam as has no strength. It does seem
to have many advantages it's easy to use, water proof strong but I
prefer something like epoxy or resorcinol that has strong gap filling
properties!
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:23 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NW Area Piets
>>Am building an all wood Piet that will use an A65 Continental. Has
>anyone>used Probond Poyurethane glue in wood planes? How does it compare
>with other>glues? Also need to know how much rudder offset in this plane.
>Is there>anyone in the Portland, OR, Vancouver, WA area
>>Bud
>>
>Bud- Try Craig Aho who's a Naval Shipyard Carpenter building his
>SECOND Pietenpol at the moment. He is in the "I can build this in
>a one car garage Club" like myself and SteveE in Provo.
>
>Craig Aho
>23307 45th Ave West
>Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
>425-778-7650
>
>Mike C.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Nichols <Nichol14(at)ix.netcom.com> |
I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the construction
and decisions that had to be made along the way.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
JAMES,
I'M JUST STARTING ON GN-1 PROJECT. HAVE NO IDEAL
WHEN ILL' FINNISH, I PERSONALLY LIKE A LOT OF THINGS ABOUT THE PIETENPOL
BETTER THAN THE GN-1, ESPECIALLY THE LONG VERSION SINCE I'M 6-3 250 LBS
IT HAS MORE ROOM THAN THE GN-1. I'M LUCKY IN THAT
I HAVE SOME VERY EXPERIENCED BUILDERS AND DESIGNERS IN OUR EAA CHAPTER 775 I
WON'T MENTION
THERE NAMES BUT THEY HAVE BEEN ENVOLED IN
BUILDING, DESIGNING AND EMPLOYED IN THE AVIATION
COMMUNITY FOR MANY YEARS, I HAVE OPTED TO CHANGE
THE DESIGN BY STRETCHING AND WIDENING THE PLANE
A FEW INCHES BUT ONLY UNDER THE GUIDANCE
OF THE MORE EXPERIENCED AND I WILL NO LONGER CALL
IT A GN-1 THAT WOULDN'T BE FAR TO MR. GREGA,
ONE REASON I CHOICE THE GN-1 DESIGN IS THAT
THE PLYWOOD GOES ALL THE WAY BACK AND I INTEND
TO HAVE A VARNISHED WOOD RATHER THAN FABRIC
ON THE FUSELAGE, ANOTHER IS WEIGHT CALCULATION'S
HAVE BE DONE FOR TAIL WHEELS LIGHTER ENGINES
UP FRONT ETC, I LIKE THE HARDWARE ON THE GN-1 BETTER BUT THE POINT IS THE
PIETENPOL HAS A GREAT REPUTATION AND IT SEEMS IT WOULD BE MUCH
EASIER TO FABRICATE, EXAMPLE IS THE GN-1 WAS
DESIGNED USING PIPER CUB GEAR IN AN ERA WHEN
CUB GEAR COULD BE FOUND EASIER THAN BUILDING IT,
HOWEVER THE PIETENPOL GEAR LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD
BE EASIER TO BUILD STRUT ATTACHMENTS ARE BOLTED
TO A PIECE OF ASH CROSS OVER MEMBER THAT STIFFENS THE FLOOR AND BECOMES A
STRUCTURAL MEMBER
AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE, THAT IS SIMPLER AND PROBABLY LESS EXPENSIVE,
THERE'S AND EXCELLENT
GN-1 FEATURED IN 4 OR 5 MONTHS BACK ISSUE OF
EXPERIMENTER MAGAZINE AND BUILDER MENTIONS
SOME OF THE REASONS HE BUILT A GN-1 OVER
THE REGULAR PIETENPOL, CALL THE EAA AND
THEY'LL SHIP THIS ISSUE FOR A COUPLE OF BUCKS
AND HANDLING CHARGES THIS HELPED ME MAKE
MY DECISION
-----Original Message-----
From: James Nichols <Nichol14(at)ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 9:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1
>I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
>currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the construction
>and decisions that had to be made along the way.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilot00(at)earthlink.net |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
are there any piets in the los angeles area?????????????????/At 21:44 9/2/98
-0500, you wrote:
> Yes I bought some of the polyurethane glue at the local Wal-Mart.
>it seemed strong enough, previously I had talked to a man that imports a
>similar glue and he says that it doesn't have gap fill ability.
> I think I have read where a very skilled designer and builder is using the
>glue but my personal experience is that the glue in gaps foams
>up like window insulating foam as has no strength. It does seem
>to have many advantages it's easy to use, water proof strong but I
>prefer something like epoxy or resorcinol that has strong gap filling
>properties!
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:23 AM
>Subject: Re: NW Area Piets
>
>
>>>Am building an all wood Piet that will use an A65 Continental. Has
>>anyone>used Probond Poyurethane glue in wood planes? How does it compare
>>with other>glues? Also need to know how much rudder offset in this plane.
>>Is there>anyone in the Portland, OR, Vancouver, WA area
>>>Bud
>>>
>>Bud- Try Craig Aho who's a Naval Shipyard Carpenter building his
>>SECOND Pietenpol at the moment. He is in the "I can build this in
>>a one car garage Club" like myself and SteveE in Provo.
>>
>>Craig Aho
>>23307 45th Ave West
>>Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
>>425-778-7650
>>
>>Mike C.
>>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Among other useful comments, Russell Ray observed:
> I prefer something like epoxy or resorcinol that has strong
> gap filling properties!
Careful there! Epoxy fills gaps beautifully, but I've always heard
that resorcinol has virtually no gap-filling ability at all. The big
problem with using it (other than that it always reminds me not
to mess around in coal mines without dust protection) is that
it won't tolerate anything but the best woodworking with the
tightest joints you can manage.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
yes there's a picture of rib testing in the one of the old glider
manual's. they seem to hang the rib on a short spar extending
from the wall and hang sand bags on the rib. I'm not a structural
engineer but it seems that your plane at gross minus the weight
of the wing times 6-g's devided by the number of ribs would be a good total
weight, to test negative
loads a person would turn the rib upside down. remember
this is a over simplified test and load dispersion on the
rib is not uniform and is more concentrated on the front spare
in level and normal flight. I know very little about this so maybe
someone that has actually built a plane could give some input.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard DeCosta <rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com>
Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 6:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NW Area Piets
Speaking of tests, are there any strength tests that I could run on
my 'practice' rib to make sure I'm building correctly? It would be
nice to see a rib pass a stress test of some kind before I get in and
fly away. :)
Richard
> Bud,
> I, too am in the early construction phase of my Piet, and our
> chapter designee recommended using Pliobond II glue. This is good
> quality carpenter's glue and easy to use. My tests broke the wood,
> not the joint every time. You might want to check this out...it
> works for me. Don Cooley (ADonJr(at)AOL.com)
-------------------------------------------------
Homepage: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
James,
Get more information on the Pietenpol and think long and hard before you
begin a Grega project. There is a large body of thought that Mr. Grega
tried to fix a lot of things that were not broken when he designed the
Grega. He also had a goal of making it user to use things like cheap! J-3
parts.
The Piet was designed in the late 20s and early 30s by a very clever
individual. Many have tried to change various aspects of the design to
modernize and or improve it. Rarely, if ever, is any real improvement made.
Mainly they just add weight and complicate a simple design. My personal
opinion is that the Grega is such a situation that has been, unfortunately,
recorded on drawings and sold to an unsuspecting public.
That having been said, I have ridden in a Grega a few times and thoroughly
enjoyed the experience. Study both designs carefully before you choose, and
enjoy!
One last thing. The Piet is said to have better resale value. Something to
think about.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: James Nichols <Nichol14(at)ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 9:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1
>I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
>currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the construction
>and decisions that had to be made along the way.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
Are there any builders in the southern Mo. or northern Arkansas -AREA OUT
THERE?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
I am building a GN-1. I have a few pictures to share if you are
interested. At the time I started my GN-1 I thought it was a real
Pietenpol. Right now I am in the process of covering the fuselage and tail
feathers. Well actually they are covered and I am applying poly-spray.
Since it isn't allowed to send attachments to the group send me your E-Mail
address and I will send you pictures. I am pleased with my GN-1 it isn't a
Piet because it has been modified some. But than there are no real
Pietenpols except those built by Pietenpol himself because everyone is
modified in some small way.
>I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
>currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the construction
>and decisions that had to be made along the way.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com.I.hate.junk.email> |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Sport Aviation! |
As soon as I get my issue I'll scan it and post it here!!!
Hopefully it comes today.
What res does everyone want???
Greg Yotz
Jim Sury wrote:
> That would be really nice wallpaper. Now all I need is a scanner. Or
> someone to scan it and send it to me. jas
>
> >I got the latest edition of Sport Aviation in the mail yesterday. On page
> >66 is a picture of an oil painting by George A. Grant titled "First Flight
> >of the Piet". Check it out. Very nice. Worth scanning as wallpaper (hint,
> > hint).
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dswagler(at)cobkf.ang.af.mil |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Sport Aviation! |
>What res does everyone want???
800x600 WOULD WORK FOR ME!
dms
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Check out Sport Aviation! |
Greg,
Thanks a lot. Beggars can't be choosers. I'll take whatever you can do. If someone
yells about copyright or says you can't send an attached file to the group
please send it direct to me at this DejaNews email address or to Leo.Powning(at)computer.org
Regards,
Leo
--
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:05:36 Greg Yotz wrote:
>As soon as I get my issue I'll scan it and post it here!!!
>
>Hopefully it comes today.
>
>What res does everyone want???
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>Jim Sury wrote:
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
Before knowing there was anything such as a "pure-true"
Piet, modified Piets, GN-1, or anything variation thereof,
I bought from an out of town friend what he said was a
Pietenpol. I owned a Cherokee 160 and thought an
open cockpit plane would be fun to fly....something
low and slow to enjoy in the local area.
Later I learned the plane was a GN-1 built in 1985 owned and
flown by three different owners over that time. An experienced
tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
The point is, as long as the plane is safe and fun to fly
and offers years of pleasure, I think everyone is better
served.
both Mr. Pietenpol and Mr. Grega used components that were
relatively inexpensive and plentiful at that time. Both offered
to the public what they felt would be a safe, fun, and inexpensive
plane to build or buy.
As someone said earlier, there are no TRUE Piets other than
what Mr. Pietenpol built since most have been modified in
some way...no matter how small.
I hope this group is not in a position to draw a line in the sand
and say yours is a true PIET and yours is not. I believe the
spirit and concept of the type of flying Mr. Pietenpol put on
paper and later in the air is what has brought us all together.
Safe flying......
Mike King
GN-1
Dallas
>I am building a GN-1. I have a few pictures to share if you are
>interested. At the time I started my GN-1 I thought it was a real
>Pietenpol. Right now I am in the process of covering the fuselage and tail
>feathers. Well actually they are covered and I am applying poly-spray.
>Since it isn't allowed to send attachments to the group send me your E-Mail
>address and I will send you pictures. I am pleased with my GN-1 it isn't a
>Piet because it has been modified some. But than there are no real
>Pietenpols except those built by Pietenpol himself because everyone is
>modified in some small way.
>
>
>>I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
>>currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the construction
>>and decisions that had to be made along the way.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baileys(at)ktis.net (Robert M. Bailey) |
Hello list,
On other small item about the GN-1. I have talked with Mr. Grega on
several occasions and felt that he is a fine gentleman. I don't believe
that he is trying to dupe anybody. If you look at the price he is
charging for plans (which are very well drawn) he is certainly not getting
rich.
Regards - Bob Bailey
> >I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
> >currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the
construction
> >and decisions that had to be made along the way.
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Jim Sury makes a good point by saying that he thought he was building
a Pietenpol. As I understand it, Bernard Pietenpol didn't advertise
his design much in the 60's, 70's and 80's so the very similarly named
GN-1 Aircamper ads in Sport Aviation from John Grega drew all of the
interest. Many people also liked the low price of the GN-1 plans and knew
nothing about the original Pietenpol. I have flown both types and both
are a total blast. I only favor the Piet because it generally is lighter,
requires less power, and has a 'moveable' wing fore and aft to adjust for
heavier pilots or engine configurations as opposed to the GN-1 which
has a fixed wing position. To change a bad CG location in a Grega you
have to A: change the length of the engine mount, or B: use ballast.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Michael King Wrote: An experienced
>tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
>and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
>plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
>It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
Mike/Group- this is absolutely true. I am so hooked on this Pietenpol
flying now that I virtually haven't made it directly home after work for
nearly two weeks straight. I inevitably stop off at the airport and go
flying. I tell myself " just a half-hour or so, then I'll go home" Yeah,
right. Sunset arrives at 8:03 pm now and last night I entered the
pattern at 8:03 pm wishing it was still 6pm.
I'm starting to feel like a SteveE. or a Craig Lawler !!! (proudly)
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
Great words of encouragement Mike. No matter if you
are building a true Piet or a GN-1, it seems flying a well
built open cockpit airplane has no match.
This should get the folks back into the garage and shop.
Thanks again Mike and safe flying.
Mike King
GN-1
Dallas
>Michael King Wrote: An experienced
>>tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
>>and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
>>plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
>>It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
>
>Mike/Group- this is absolutely true. I am so hooked on this Pietenpol
>flying now that I virtually haven't made it directly home after work for
>nearly two weeks straight. I inevitably stop off at the airport and go
>flying. I tell myself " just a half-hour or so, then I'll go home" Yeah,
>right. Sunset arrives at 8:03 pm now and last night I entered the
>pattern at 8:03 pm wishing it was still 6pm.
>
>I'm starting to feel like a SteveE. or a Craig Lawler !!! (proudly)
>
>Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard DeCosta" <Richard DeCosta> |
Too true! After having my pilot's liscence for over 4 years, a month
ago I finally got my 1st ride in an open cockpit plane: a beautiful
New Standard at Hampton, Airfield in New Hampshire ( pic here:
http://www.hampton-airfield.com/Biplane_Rides/New_Standard_Pose2.jpg
) . WHAT A RUSH! I dont think flying a Cessna will ever do it for me
anymore! The sound (and smell) of the engine, the feel of the wind,
the great view of struts and wires! And the best part was when we
were on short final when he cut the engine, and all I could hear was
the sound of the wind whistling through the wires. Wow...
On 3 Sep 98 at 11:58, Michael King wrote:
>
> Great words of encouragement Mike. No matter if you
> are building a true Piet or a GN-1, it seems flying a well
> built open cockpit airplane has no match.
>
> This should get the folks back into the garage and shop.
>
> Thanks again Mike and safe flying.
>
> Mike King
> GN-1
> Dallas
>
>
>
>
>
> >Michael King Wrote: An experienced
> >>tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
> >>and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
> >>plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
> >>It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
> >
> >Mike/Group- this is absolutely true. I am so hooked on this Pietenpol
> >flying now that I virtually haven't made it directly home after work for
> >nearly two weeks straight. I inevitably stop off at the airport and go
> >flying. I tell myself " just a half-hour or so, then I'll go home" Yeah,
> >right. Sunset arrives at 8:03 pm now and last night I entered the
> >pattern at 8:03 pm wishing it was still 6pm.
> >
> >I'm starting to feel like a SteveE. or a Craig Lawler !!! (proudly)
> >
> >Mike C.
> >
> >
> >
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Life's blessed events indeed. Was lucky enough to get a ride in the New
Standard at Old Rhinebeck last October and also a ride in Sparky's Piet at
Corona this spring. Inspirational! Then to see Mike C. in his Piet. Must
admit to base emotions of pure bile green envy...which also turned into
motivation. Now following the sage advice of many---doing something everyday,
no matter how small.
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russell ray <rray(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NW Area Piets |
Owen,
Thanks for the correction on resorcinal glue,
-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 8:55 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NW Area Piets
>Among other useful comments, Russell Ray observed:
>
>> I prefer something like epoxy or resorcinol that has strong
>> gap filling properties!
>
>Careful there! Epoxy fills gaps beautifully, but I've always heard
>that resorcinol has virtually no gap-filling ability at all. The big
>problem with using it (other than that it always reminds me not
>to mess around in coal mines without dust protection) is that
>it won't tolerate anything but the best woodworking with the
>tightest joints you can manage.
>
>Owen Davies
>
________________________________________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
Michael King
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 10:59 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Addictions
Great words of encouragement Mike. No matter if you
are building a true Piet or a GN-1, it seems flying a well
built open cockpit airplane has no match.
This should get the folks back into the garage and shop.
UNLESS, you have your piet at the airport, and your new project at home in
the shop.
Steve (Still just looking at my Tailwind plans) E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
James/group
I started with a set of 1934 Piet plans and then bought a GN-1 with the ribs
and tail built. That was before I knew the differences! Now I don't really
know what to call my aircraft, but an open cockpit parasol. Many of the
Grega changes have me wondering... The aileron hinges are terrible. However
when you build and make any changes to either set of plans just be sure that
what you do is logical and follows sound practices. I don't think it is fair
to call any of our aircraft Pietenpols except in respect to BHP and the joy
he has given us all.
have fun
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: James Nichols <Nichol14(at)ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 9:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1
>I am thinking of building a GN-1. Is there anyone out there who is
>currently building one ? If so I would like to hear about the construction
>and decisions that had to be made along the way.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig & Shari Hanson <chanson(at)polarcomm.com> |
Hello everyone,
I am building my first airplane, a Piet. I am really nervous about
making sure I do things right the first time. After all my life and my
passengers life depend on me doing things right the first time. I plan
to follow the plans as closely as I possibly can. I just ordered some
of my spruce from Wicks along with T-88. Now that I have ordered it
someone tells me that Titebond II is better. Please help!! Am I doing
the right thing with T-88?
I also want to mention that my wife and I visited Brodhead during your
flyin. We arrived late Sat. eve and left Sunday AM. I was impressed.
I really like the small town atmosphere. My wife kept telling me that
if I plan to build an airplane, she must have a ride in one like the one
I am to build or I can't start building it. Well I really did not feet
comfortable asking anyone at Brodhead to give her a ride, but I told her
that next year after I have mine half built maybe next year on the FIRST
DAY of Brodhead we can arrange it. Anyway, I'm starting, and I'm sure
this will not be the last you hear from me.
Talk care and God Bless,
Craig H.
Hello everyone,
I am building my first airplane, a
Piet. I
am really nervous about making sure I do things right the first
time.
After all my life and my passengers life depend on me doing things right
the
first time. I plan to follow the plans as closely as I
possibly
can. I just ordered some of my spruce from Wicks along with
T-88.
Now that I have ordered it someone tells me that Titebond II is
better.
Please help!! Am I doing the right thing with T-88?
I also want to mention that my wife
and I
visited Brodhead during your flyin. We arrived late Sat. eve and
left
Sunday AM. I was impressed. I really like the small town
atmosphere. My wife kept telling me that if I plan to build an
airplane,
she must have a ride in one like the one I am to build or I can't start
building
it. Well I really did not feet comfortable asking anyone at
Brodhead to
give her a ride, but I told her that next year after I have mine half
built
maybe next year on the FIRST DAY of Brodhead we can arrange it.
Anyway, I'm starting, and I'm sure this will not be the last you
hear from
me.
Talk care and God
Bless,
Craig H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry L. Neal" <llneal(at)earthlink.net> |
My, that's a beauty!
Okay, I'm making $awdust again...
Richard DeCosta wrote:
> Too true! After having my pilot's liscence for over 4 years, a month
> ago I finally got my 1st ride in an open cockpit plane: a beautiful
> New Standard at Hampton, Airfield in New Hampshire ( pic here:
> http://www.hampton-airfield.com/Biplane_Rides/New_Standard_Pose2.jpg
> ) . WHAT A RUSH! I dont think flying a Cessna will ever do it for me
> anymore! The sound (and smell) of the engine, the feel of the wind,
> the great view of struts and wires! And the best part was when we
> were on short final when he cut the engine, and all I could hear was
> the sound of the wind whistling through the wires. Wow...
>
> On 3 Sep 98 at 11:58, Michael King wrote:
>
> >
> > Great words of encouragement Mike. No matter if you
> > are building a true Piet or a GN-1, it seems flying a well
> > built open cockpit airplane has no match.
> >
> > This should get the folks back into the garage and shop.
> >
> > Thanks again Mike and safe flying.
> >
> > Mike King
> > GN-1
> > Dallas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Michael King Wrote: An experienced
> > >>tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
> > >>and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
> > >>plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
> > >>It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
> > >
> > >Mike/Group- this is absolutely true. I am so hooked on this Pietenpol
> > >flying now that I virtually haven't made it directly home after work for
> > >nearly two weeks straight. I inevitably stop off at the airport and go
> > >flying. I tell myself " just a half-hour or so, then I'll go home" Yeah,
> > >right. Sunset arrives at 8:03 pm now and last night I entered the
> > >pattern at 8:03 pm wishing it was still 6pm.
> > >
> > >I'm starting to feel like a SteveE. or a Craig Lawler !!! (proudly)
> > >
> > >Mike C.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> Richard DeCosta
> Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
> Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
> Ph: 207-842-2064
> Fax: 207-842-2239
> PERSONAL: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Richard,
I agree with you. This is what aviation is about. Flying Cessnas and other
spam cans is just 'airplane driving'. I've ridden in a number of Piets, and
got a ride in a 1929 ATO Taperwing at Brodhead this year. I wouldn't give
15 cents for a metal or plastic airplane.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard DeCosta <Richard.DeCosta>
Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 12:06 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Addictions
Too true! After having my pilot's liscence for over 4 years, a month
ago I finally got my 1st ride in an open cockpit plane: a beautiful
New Standard at Hampton, Airfield in New Hampshire ( pic here:
http://www.hampton-airfield.com/Biplane_Rides/New_Standard_Pose2.jpg
) . WHAT A RUSH! I dont think flying a Cessna will ever do it for me
anymore! The sound (and smell) of the engine, the feel of the wind,
the great view of struts and wires! And the best part was when we
were on short final when he cut the engine, and all I could hear was
the sound of the wind whistling through the wires. Wow...
On 3 Sep 98 at 11:58, Michael King wrote:
>
> Great words of encouragement Mike. No matter if you
> are building a true Piet or a GN-1, it seems flying a well
> built open cockpit airplane has no match.
>
> This should get the folks back into the garage and shop.
>
> Thanks again Mike and safe flying.
>
> Mike King
> GN-1
> Dallas
>
>
> >Michael King Wrote: An experienced
> >>tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
> >>and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
> >>plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
> >>It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
> >
> >Mike/Group- this is absolutely true. I am so hooked on this Pietenpol
> >flying now that I virtually haven't made it directly home after work for
> >nearly two weeks straight. I inevitably stop off at the airport and go
> >flying. I tell myself " just a half-hour or so, then I'll go home" Yeah,
> >right. Sunset arrives at 8:03 pm now and last night I entered the
> >pattern at 8:03 pm wishing it was still 6pm.
> >
> >I'm starting to feel like a SteveE. or a Craig Lawler !!! (proudly)
> >
> >Mike C.
> >
> >
> >
Richard DeCosta
Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
Ph: 207-842-2064
Fax: 207-842-2239
PERSONAL: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Good a.m., gentlemen,
I've been chipping away at covering my ship. The Poly-fiber dealer
originally sold me 32 yards of fabric based on an estimate they already had.
I ran out. I didn't have any large amounts of waste, other than one piece
about fuselage length that was too narrow to do a wing. I am sure that I
could have worked more efficiently, but even still, I don't think it could
have been done with 32 yards. I needed 15 more: the top of one wing and
top and bottom of the other.
What are y'all's experiences with amounts of covering materials?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Aron(at)hrn.bradley.edu
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 10:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: inexpensive wood source
>To all of you looking for good wood at a good price:
>
>Try R.A.W. LLC. My partner Dave and I got enough good quality spruce
>for two
>piets at a very reasonable price. We did all of our contacts with him
>by email. His
>address is: rawllc(at)innercite.com
>
>Send him an inquiry to find out what he has available, and the price.
>We were very pleased, almost stunned at what we got for the price he
>charged.
>
>John in Peoria
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
=A0
-----Original Message-----
f Craig &
Shari Hanson
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 3:27 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Builder
Hello everyone,
=A0
I am building my first airplane, a Piet.=A0 I am really nervous about=
making
sure I do things right the first time.=A0 After all my life and my pa=
ssengers
life depend on me doing things right the first time.=A0 I plan to fol=
low the
plans as closely=A0 as I possibly can.=A0 I just ordered some of my s=
pruce from
Wicks along with T-88.=A0 Now that I have ordered it someone tells me=
that
Titebond II is better.=A0 Please help!!=A0 Am I doing the right thing=
with T-88?
=A0
Craig,=A0 You will learn quickly that every choice you make in buildi=
ng an
airplane is a compromise, however, in most cases it is a choice of
completely adequate, and even more than completely adequate.=A0=A0 Yo=
ur glue
question is a good example.=A0 I would venture to guess that the numb=
er of
aircraft glues joint flying with T-88 is 1000 time higher than those
of
Titebond II.=A0 Secondly your life need not depend on those thing you=
do the
first time.=A0 If it isn't right, do it again.=A0 Several parts on my=
plane are
second, third or fourth times built.
=A0
Hope your enjoying the learning process!
=A0
STevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, John Greenlee wrote:
> Good a.m., gentlemen,
>
> I've been chipping away at covering my ship. The Poly-fiber dealer
> originally sold me 32 yards of fabric based on an estimate they already had.
> I ran out. I didn't have any large amounts of waste, other than one piece
> about fuselage length that was too narrow to do a wing. I am sure that I
> could have worked more efficiently, but even still, I don't think it could
> have been done with 32 yards. I needed 15 more: the top of one wing and
> top and bottom of the other.
>
> What are y'all's experiences with amounts of covering materials?
>
> John
I just got 2 estimates for the Christavia (based on Citabria dimensions)
and they both quoted 45 yds of fabric. Since the Piet and Christavia are
relatively simular in fabric area, I would have expected the same estimate
(which works out to what you've had to purchase).
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Barlow <jbarlow(at)one.net> |
Gents:
I'm normally just a lurker here. I'ld love to build a Piet or a Hatz bipe
when the kids are off to
college.
Right now, I'm fortunate enough to be flying a Spacewalker II open cockpit
tube and fabric airplane.
It really is splendid. While the wing is on the bottom, the principal is
the same. It reminds me
of the days when the wife let me ride a motorcycle. Visibility, breeze ....
AIR! An hour at a time
is just not enough. It is addicting.
This is the right time of the year too!
-Jim, Cincinnati area
>Richard,
>
>I agree with you. This is what aviation is about. Flying Cessnas and
other
>spam cans is just 'airplane driving'. I've ridden in a number of Piets,
and
>got a ride in a 1929 ATO Taperwing at Brodhead this year. I wouldn't give
>15 cents for a metal or plastic airplane.
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard DeCosta <Richard.DeCosta>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 12:06 PM
>Subject: Re: Addictions
>
>
>Too true! After having my pilot's liscence for over 4 years, a month
>ago I finally got my 1st ride in an open cockpit plane: a beautiful
>New Standard at Hampton, Airfield in New Hampshire ( pic here:
>http://www.hampton-airfield.com/Biplane_Rides/New_Standard_Pose2.jpg
>) . WHAT A RUSH! I dont think flying a Cessna will ever do it for me
>anymore! The sound (and smell) of the engine, the feel of the wind,
>the great view of struts and wires! And the best part was when we
>were on short final when he cut the engine, and all I could hear was
>the sound of the wind whistling through the wires. Wow...
>
>On 3 Sep 98 at 11:58, Michael King wrote:
>
>>
>> Great words of encouragement Mike. No matter if you
>> are building a true Piet or a GN-1, it seems flying a well
>> built open cockpit airplane has no match.
>>
>> This should get the folks back into the garage and shop.
>>
>> Thanks again Mike and safe flying.
>>
>> Mike King
>> GN-1
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Michael King Wrote: An experienced
>> >>tailwheel instructor friend of mine flew my GN-1 many times
>> >>and did not want to put it in the hanger. Everytime he flew the
>> >>plane and parked it, he wanted to get back in it and fly some more.
>> >>It was most fun flying he had done in over 40 years of flying.
>> >
>> >Mike/Group- this is absolutely true. I am so hooked on this Pietenpol
>> >flying now that I virtually haven't made it directly home after work for
>> >nearly two weeks straight. I inevitably stop off at the airport and go
>> >flying. I tell myself " just a half-hour or so, then I'll go home"
Yeah,
>> >right. Sunset arrives at 8:03 pm now and last night I entered the
>> >pattern at 8:03 pm wishing it was still 6pm.
>> >
>> >I'm starting to feel like a SteveE. or a Craig Lawler !!! (proudly)
>> >
>> >Mike C.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>Richard DeCosta
>Web/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC
> Web: http://www.autoeurope.com
> Ph: 207-842-2064
> Fax: 207-842-2239
>PERSONAL: http://207.140.1.221/w3builder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
I would hate to think that recreational flying is not big enough for more than
one interpretation of what is "fun." As I build the pieces of my Piet, I
spend some of my spare time "driving" my Ercoupe around the Western skies. I
know a number of fellows, and some gals, who enjoy flitting from place to
place in their Piper and Cessna "Spam Cans." Isn't the real point that it is
very special to be able to "Slip the surly bonds", and leave the rest of
humanity below for a while? We should spend our energies supporting each
other in the aviation fraternity, regardless of the mode of flight that they
enjoy. God knows we have enough "outsiders" offering their criticisms.
Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LanhamOS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet Article |
I am writing an article about the Piet which I will submit to a couple of
flying mags that are not familiar with the bird. I would like to have some
color photos. If you ave any, and would like to send them they would be
appreciated.
Dr. Orville E. Lanham
Aviation Historian
1912 Collins Drive
Bellevue, Ne.
402 291 4648
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Greenlee <jgreenlee(at)morgan.net> |
Don,
What criticism? Have all the fun you want. Don't think my statement of
what I like in flying is binding on you. I just said I wouldn't have a
spamcan. Besides, the Ercoupe is neat enough that you can just barely call
it a spamcan. :-)
I didn't realize y'all were that sensitive.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Friday, September 04, 1998 5:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Addictions
>John,
>I would hate to think that recreational flying is not big enough for more
than
>one interpretation of what is "fun." As I build the pieces of my Piet, I
>spend some of my spare time "driving" my Ercoupe around the Western skies.
I
>know a number of fellows, and some gals, who enjoy flitting from place to
>place in their Piper and Cessna "Spam Cans." Isn't the real point that it
is
>very special to be able to "Slip the surly bonds", and leave the rest of
>humanity below for a while? We should spend our energies supporting each
>other in the aviation fraternity, regardless of the mode of flight that
they
>enjoy. God knows we have enough "outsiders" offering their criticisms.
>Don Cooley
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gross weight |
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. But doesn't useful load include fuel
weight. So pilot, passengers, baggage;-) and fuel would have to weigh
less than 385 pounds in this case.
>What is the suggested max gross on an Air Camper?
>http://www.pietenpol.com/plans.htm lists empty
>weight as 630 and useful load as 385 lb. It also
>lists fuel capacity as 10-18 gallons. I am assuming
>that useful load is what you have when you are done
>filling the tanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Dayton <deandayton(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Sport Aviation! |
1024X768 would be great. Hope I'm not too late.
>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:05:36 -0500
>From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com.I.hate.junk.email>
>Subject: Re: Check out Sport Aviation!
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion
>
>As soon as I get my issue I'll scan it and post it here!!!
>
>Hopefully it comes today.
>
>What res does everyone want???
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>Jim Sury wrote:
>
>> That would be really nice wallpaper. Now all I need is a scanner. Or
>> someone to scan it and send it to me. jas
>>
>> >I got the latest edition of Sport Aviation in the mail yesterday.
On page
>> >66 is a picture of an oil painting by George A. Grant titled "First
Flight
>> >of the Piet". Check it out. Very nice. Worth scanning as
wallpaper (hint,
>> > hint).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
August 10, 1998 - September 05, 1998
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ah