Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bc

August 20, 1999 - August 31, 1999



      
      HP....................................100@3200 rpm
      
      HP (Continuous)...............90@3000 rpm
      
      
      2. It is low stress
      
      In the Corvair automobile the engine produced 180 horsepower in
      the turbo- charged form. All 1964-69 model engines utilize the
      same crankshaft, rods, pistons and cases etc. By flat rating the
      engine for 90 hp continuous, the engine is only stressed to 50%
      of it=92s rating in the automobile. No other auto engine conversion
      can make this claim. In the automobile the engine was redlined at
      5,500 rpm. My aircraft conversion produces 75% power at half this
      rpm. These two facts are the cornerstone of the Corvair engines=92s
      reliability as an aircraft power plant.
      
      
      (And from his FAQ page)
      
      
      Is cruising at 2800 RPM going to stress the Corvair engine?
      
      Not at all. The Corvair engine turns more than 3000 rpm at 60 mph
      in the automobile. They can run for hours at a time over 4500
      rpm. Asking the engine to produce 75% power, the brake mean
      effective pressure (BMEP) is lower at 2800 rpm than at 2000 rpm.
      
      
      > > Theres more to this aspect than meets the eye, and I feel its
      > > worth playing
      > > it safe. If you are interested in the fatigue characteristics etc=
      . of the
      > > crank I have more information- but under MAXIMUM load a new Corva=
      ir engine
      > > running at normal temperature will explode with catastrophic
      > > crank/connecting rod failure in 11 hours, according to Chevrolet'=
      s fatigue
      > > tests.This is GM's passenger car standard, essentially- thats how=
       they
      > > decide what is an acceptable connecting rod beam size, as example=
      , its not
      > > a shortcoming of the Corvair engine. This would be similar to a f=
      ull
      > > throttle run for 11 hours installed in a car. Naturally, the less
      > > often the
      > > engine is run at high speed/load/temp the longer it lasts, but th=
      eres
      > > definite limits.
      
      We are not running the engine in an A/C application at MAXIMUM
      load. No where close....  unless you use a PSRU,  you can never
      get even close to the 5500 rpm redline.
      
      My $.02
      
      Pat
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject:
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Aeronca discussion list OK guys, Daddy needs a new engine. I have to get rid of what's left of the old C-85 to pay for it. Here's what's left: Good crank, M 010 but needs to go to M020 Good case, no acc cover Good cam, Core cylinders (good for factory replacements only) Stromberg carb Generator Conn rods Other misc parts (I think the lifters are still there). I'd like to get $1200 USD plus shipping for the lot but it's negotiable. Thanks, Ken Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Panzera
Subject: Re: Corvair engine codes and event announcement
Date: Aug 20, 1999
> > Before I paste the letter, I just thought I'd mention that for > > you folks in So. > > Cal., the greatest corvair show (and swap meet) on earth takes > > place in just a > > few weeks in Palm Springs. I've been told there are often many > > whole engines > > and countless parts available from people whose wives have > > demanded they clean > > out the garage. Here's a link: > > http://www.integrators.com/sdcc/GWFBT&SM.html I'm very interested in this event, but the hyperlink is no bueno. :( Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed0248(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Yeah, I'm sending in the clear, to any and all who might want to hear... Advisory Circular 43.13-2, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices Aircraft Alterations has a good section on Antenna Installations in Chapter 3. May I quote... " c. On fabric-covered aircraft or aircraft with other types of nonmetallic skin, the manufacturer's recommendations should be followed in order to provide the necessary ground plane. An acceptable method of accomplishing this is by providing a number of metal foil strips in a radial position from the antenna base and secured under the fabric or wood skin of the aircraft. (See figure3.2)" Figure 3.2 shows a sketch of a whip antenna centered in an 8-legged array of foil, and has a note that reads: "NOTE: THE LENGTH OF EACH FOIL RADIAL SHOULD BE AT LEAST EQUAL TO THE ANTENNA LENGTH." I've used this methodology to hook up a handheld external antenna on two Champs, and both worked well. Actually, I had access to "500 MPH tape", which is aluminum tape 2" wide and about .005" thick. Put the radials under the skin and covered them with pinked fabric strips to make sure they stayed where I wanted them. Try it, you'll like it! Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper
Date: Aug 20, 1999
I have had much better luck buying spruce from Wicks. I have received some poor material from Aircraft spruce, also they only finish it on two sides. Wicks' spruce is all sanded to dimension on all four sides. http://www.wicks.com/aircraft At one point, I ordered a seven lb. kit of glue and 195 ft. of 1/4 x 1/2 cap strip from Aircraft Spruce. What I received was, 7 kits of glue and about 20 ft. of cap strip, only half of which was usable due to slash grain. That's when I started buying from Wicks. I have been very pleased with both their materials and their service. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gene Tomblin <tombling(at)MercyShips.ORG>
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Michael D Cuy wrote: > When using a handheld radio in a Pietenpol or GN-1, can > someone give me a simple, basic, practical way to install > some kind of antenna. Mike C. Mike, The best and safest bet would be to get an old com antenna from an AP or someone else who is around aircraft that are being parted out. You could purchase a new one from Aircraft Spruce or Chief Avionics . They tend to be way over priced when you understand that it a very simple device . Antennas are easy to build . I'm an FCC licnsed radio technician and have built dozens of antennas over the years . The trick in a piet would be providing a good ground plane under the antenna . On a typical light aircraft the aluminum skin provides a very good ground plane for the quarter wave vertical antenna to work with . This could be done by sheeting the area under the antenna with thin aluminum to at least one quarter wave length in all directions from the antenna mounting point . The wave length in Meters can be found by dividing the number 300 by the frequency in Mega Hertz. For 121.5 Mhz this works out to 2.46 Meters , One quarter of this is 0.61 Meters. Using the rough conversion of 39 inches to the meter this is roughly 23.79 inches. The size and shape of the ground plane is not critical as long as it is at least one quarter wave at the lowest frequency you expect to use . The antenna it self needs to be the right length in order to work well and not damage the transmitter portion of your hand held. Shielding the ignition system on you engine would be another thing worth doing . This is something I'm planning to work on when I get my Piet project under way . I'm sure that a lot can be done by just shielding the wires and leaving the plugs as standard automotive types and not converting the engine to take aircraft type plugs which are shielded and very expensive too . Take a look under the hood of a Corvette, GM had to shield the wires on the Vet because the fiberglass body did not provide shielding as it does on steel bodied cars. WHEN your all done you should find that your had held works better than it ever did with the rubber ducky antenna it came with I have spent a few hours in a 1946 Aronica Chief with a set up like this and the hand held was fine except the audio volume is not adequate to hear over the noise of the engine but with a two place intercom and a pair of David Clarks it works like a dream as long as the batteries hold up. If money is no object you could purchase one of the new antennas for composite aircraft that are an etched circuit board to form a half wave antenna that does not need a ground plant to work well . This could be mounted inside the fuselage behind the aft seat . This would be a way of having a radio with out the normal outward sign of an antenna sticking out somewhere Gene Tomblin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Sheets <doug_sheets(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: AS&S
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Walt: As you can see from previous posts that you must be VERY careful who you talk to at AS&S. I just got the wrong person. Was your price $823? That's what mine was without any plywood. I bought a project from Ohio so now I'm good to go. Doug ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John R Bayer <jrbayer2(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper
Date: Aug 20, 1999
REPLICRAFT Aviation in NJ has great parts for the real Piet. John Bayer writes: >Like I said in my last message. > >Aircraft Spruce lists the kit for the GN-1 > >Not for the Aircamper. > >Apples and Oranges again. > >I have heard nothing but the best about that Canada company that sells >kits for >the Real Aircamper. > >I wonder why AS & S does not sell a wood kit for the aircamper. > >Is is because more people buying the 25.00 GN plans don't know what >they are >buying? >May be a better design amyway. > >Gordon > >Doug Sheets wrote: > >> Jay & Clay: >> I bought the Piet wood kit from AS&S and it is NOWHERE near the >right stuff >> for the Aircamper. I think now that I know the difference between >an >> Aircamper and a GN1 that they may have the wood for a GN1. The >capstrips >> were 1/4 x 1/4 not 1/4 x 1/2 as shown in the plans and the center >section >> spars were too short to use based on my 1933 Aircamper plans. >Several pieces >> didn't match so I ended up buying a project from a couple guys that >went >> thru the plans and ordered each piece. Also AS&S DOES NOT include >any >> plywood for $823; only the spruce pieces. >> Doug >> >> >From: Clay Spurgeon <cspurgeon(at)baseballexp.com> >> >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >> >To: Pietenpol Discussion >> >Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper >> >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:20:22 +0000 >> > >> >Jay - If you're looking to go "aircraft grade", I have an e-mail >in to >> >Aircraft >> >Spruce and Specialty for a breakout on their Pietenpol wood kits. >They >> >offer >> >a spruce kit for $800 and three other Pietenpol kits, but I can't >get the >> >details on these through my server. They're probably plywood, >> >hardware and metal kits. Give 'em a call if you want the details. >> > >> >Clay >> > >> > >> > > From: Jay White <jwhite(at)mindq.com> >> > > Subject: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper >> > > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion >> > >> > > I was wondering if someone could give me an idea of what it's >going to >> >cost >> > > just for the wood to build an Air Camper. Thanks. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >Director of Marketing & Merchandising >> >Baseball Express, Inc. >> >210-348-7000 X4300 >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Group- Thank you for the excellent advice on antennas for handhelds.....now if I can scrounge up some cash to buy the handheld ! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Clay Spurgeon <cspurgeon(at)baseballexp.com>
Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper
Date: Aug 20, 1999
I bought a wood kit from Wicks for a Mitchell Wing many moons ago - the wood and the kit were excellent. They started as a pipe organ company and this would give them a great background in wood appreciation and selection. Got a reply to my e-mail from AS&S saying they will fax the parts listings for their Pietenpol kits to me. I'll let y'all know when I get it, and if its for a Peit or a GN-1. Cheers, Clay > From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams) > Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper > Reply-to: Pietenpol Discussion > I have had much better luck buying spruce from Wicks. I have received > some poor material from Aircraft spruce, also they only finish it on two > sides. Wicks' spruce is all sanded to dimension on all four sides. > > http://www.wicks.com/aircraft > > At one point, I ordered a seven lb. kit of glue and 195 ft. of 1/4 x 1/2 > cap strip from Aircraft Spruce. What I received was, 7 kits of glue and > about 20 ft. of cap strip, only half of which was usable due to slash > grain. That's when I started buying from Wicks. > > I have been very pleased with both their materials and their service. > > Lauren > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Craig Lawler <clawler(at)ptd.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Earl, I have the same type antenna rig on my piet as Mike C. I just changed from an STS to an ICOM. The new one they have was on sale at one of the pilot shops in Pa. No VOR. Better Squelch. Works great. Talked to Flight Service the other day from 50 or 60 miles out. Belt clip holds it on an angle bracket next to my right knee. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Craig- Can I ask what Icon handheld you recently purchased w/ no vor ? Perfect- I don't need the vor info. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Cunningham <mikec(at)microlandusa.com>
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. Aircraft Spruce
Date: Aug 20, 1999
I gotta put in a plug for Aircraft Spruce also!! Everything I have ordered has been very good. One minor exception was a good test of their service after the sale...some aileron sub-spars (4 pieces) in my Hatz spruce kit were cut 1/16" under size. I discovered this several months after receiving the kit but they replaced them immediately, no questions, no cost, and please keep the old stuff. Good service! My spruce kit was wonderful. I weeded out 10 or so pieces out of the 200 (40 extra) 1/4 sq. cap strip they provided. All else was perfect including end grain well within spec on all 8 wing spars Tuesday I placed an order with Tangee (my rep) in Ca. Wed, 8 am I recieved a call from AS&S in Ga. to confirm that order was shipping that day, double check shipping address and method. Again.. personal service. Wicks has been good on everything too. -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 6:49 AM Subject: Re: Wicks vs. Aircraft Spruce Mike, where was the Wicks advice a year ago? Aircraft Spruce & Specialty knows my American Express Card number very well. They have been super and a great supplier if I know what I want. If I don't, they don't either. Early on I didn't even know what size cotter keys to get and they couldn't help. Their catalog has a lot of information for a new guy though and all in all I'm happy with their service. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 Hey Tim ! That's great to hear you are getting what you need at A/C Spruce.....and they do have a good catalog. I know what you mean about AN hardware, etc...it took me a while to figure out all the codes and lingo that go along with it...but now I almost sound like I know what I'm talking about :)) !!! Good to hear you are back flying. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: suscribe
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Please hook me up with the group, my friend is ready to start the fuselage. Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Finally got a chance to try out the new Yaesu. I was supposed to meet with my father who was flying the plane back to St. John's while I was driving in on the hiway. I first heard one of the local planes at the pond while in the car. From the ground and while travelling at 110 kph I was able to transmit and recieve an airplane at 25 miles using the built in antenna and it was quite readible. Later, from the ground at the dockside I had no problem talking to my father when he was 35 miles out at 5000'. In the plane, 25 mile range transmissions were still readible. In short, I am really pleased with this performance. The size is quite small and everything is designed to be water resistant. Price wise, it is quite comparable to the ICOM. I have the COMM only version and it was $339 USD when I bought it earlier this year. Ken On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Michael D Cuy wrote: > Group- Thank you for the excellent advice on > antennas for handhelds.....now if I can scrounge up > some cash to buy the handheld ! > > Mike C. > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Handheld, Seat
Date: Aug 20, 1999
>I just put my seat in (partially) and found >it very uncomfortable. It is too late for any design changes at this point >for me. My only options are to install some sort of padding or to design >and install a new seat (molded to my rear and back) and install over the top >of the existing seat. Any comments? >>Bart D Conrad After being uncomfortable for a few years I solved the seat problem. I removed to seat ( not easy ) & reinstalled it as low as possible.( As close to the torque tube as I dared.) This permitted me to to place two thick cushions on the seat. It worked for me. No more iron pants. Re handhelds. buy the best quality.You won't regret it. ( I have a King KY 99 ) Before I installed the electric system on the 0-200, I ran the handheld off a small 12 v battery. Never failed. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: Antenna / ign. noise
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Gene Tomblin: Just how bad is noise from the unshielded ign. leads? UMA Instruments makes a spark plug impulse sensor tachometer. However the sensor will not work if you have metal brad shielding on the ignition wires. this looked like another way to eliminate a couple of pounds of tach cable for the weight conscious "A" builder. Also, plain wire would save weight as well. Thank you. Leon Stefan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: L_Prange(at)ix.netcom.com
Subject:
Date: Aug 20, 1999
UNSUBSCRIBE PIET L_Prange(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: COZYPILOT(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 20, 1999
try RST. they do the ants. in the ez's ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Date: - - - , 20-
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. Aircraft Spruce
>Actually, Wicks has an on-line catalogue and website at ><http://www.wicks.com/> . Interestingly enough, they also have a pipe >organ company! > >Ken > >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Michael D Cuy wrote: > >> >How about putting Wicks phone #, e-mail, address on here for everyone like me >> >to use. >> > >> >thanks >> > >> >John D >> >> http://www.magicneedles.qpg.com/W/wicks/ >> > >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) >Calgary, Alberta, Canada >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Handheld, Seat
Date: Aug 21, 1999
TEMPERFOAM GENTLEMEN! That is the stuff to use, forms to your lumbar and southern exposure ! -----Original Message----- From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Handheld, Seat > >>I just put my seat in (partially) and found >>it very uncomfortable. It is too late for any design changes at this point >>for me. My only options are to install some sort of padding or to design >>and install a new seat (molded to my rear and back) and install over the >top >>of the existing seat. Any comments? >>>Bart D Conrad > >After being uncomfortable for a few years I solved the seat problem. > >I removed to seat ( not easy ) & reinstalled it as low as possible.( As >close to the torque tube as I dared.) This permitted me to to place two >thick cushions on the seat. It worked for me. No more iron pants. > >Re handhelds. buy the best quality.You won't regret it. ( I have a King KY >99 ) > >Before I installed the electric system on the 0-200, I ran the handheld off >a small 12 v battery. Never failed. > >Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 21, 1999
YUP, works fine for me too! -----Original Message----- From: Craig Lawler <clawler(at)ptd.net> Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Handheld Advice >Earl, > >I have the same type antenna rig on my piet as Mike C. I just changed >from an STS to an ICOM. The new one they have was on sale at one of the >pilot shops in Pa. No VOR. Better Squelch. Works great. Talked to Flight >Service the other day from 50 or 60 miles out. Belt clip holds it on an >angle bracket next to my right knee. > >Craig > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phil Phillips
Subject: Gary Gower
Date: Aug 20, 1999
Gary please send your mailing address to me at: pphillips(at)kalama.com I have some welding machine info for you. Phil Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mike cushway <mcushway(at)gdinet.com>
Subject: RIB TESTING RESULTS
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Group, I , like many of you, have been searching for an alternative to Sitka for use on the Pietenpol. I have been intrigued by Western Red Cedar ever since seeing some exceptional 4x4's at a local lumber co. The grade was called "ornamental/ deck" and the grading gave me goose bumps. One of the 8 footers had perfectly vertical grain the full 8ft. When I ripped it the kerf followed the same growth ring nearly full length. I have tried with no success to get more detailed comparative info. from Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, WI. Not to be discouraged, I built a rib using the WRC, 1/16GL-2 3ply and T88. Using the guidelines suggested in AirCamper.org/info/tips and tricks/testing rib strength, I built a test jig that uses controlled spring force vs. bulk weight. I applied the force at the incremental spacing listed. I was very pleased to see the 204# load with no ill effects. I continued to load in 1.4# increments until I ran out of spring travel, at which point the rib sustained a 358# load! I would be interested in hearing from those of you have have tested ANY ribs and what pitfalls I might face with using the WRC for ribs. By the way a 4x4x8ft. "post" was $20. Two of them will make 90 cap strips. Group, I , like many of you, have been searching for an alternative to Sitka for use on the Pietenpol. I have been intrigued by Western Red Cedar ever since seeing some exceptional 4x4's at a local lumber co. The grade was called "ornamental/ deck" and the grading gave me goose bumps. One of the 8 footers had perfectly vertical grain the full 8ft. When I ripped it the kerf followed the same growth ring nearly full length. I have tried with no success to get more detailed comparative info. from Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, WI. Not to be discouraged, I built a rib using the WRC, 1/16GL-2 3ply and T88. Using the guidelines suggested in AirCamper.org/info/tips and tricks/testing rib strength, I built a test jig that uses controlled spring force vs. bulk weight. I applied the force at the incremental spacing listed. I was very pleased to see the 204# load with no ill effects. I continued to load in 1.4# increments until I ran out of spring travel, at which point the rib sustained a 358# load! I would be interested in hearing from those of you have have tested ANY ribs and what pitfalls I might face with using the WRC for ribs. By the way a 4x4x8ft. "post" was $20. Two of them will make 90 cap strips. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com>
Subject: Re: RIB TESTING RESULTS
Date: Aug 21, 1999
There was an article in KitPlanes about a plane built completely with Western Red Cedar a couple of years ago. Nice looking plane. John W -----Original Message----- From: mike cushway <mcushway(at)gdinet.com> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 2:16 PM Subject: RIB TESTING RESULTS Group, I , like many of you, have been searching for an alternative to Sitka for use on the Pietenpol. I have been intrigued by Western Red Cedar ever since seeing some exceptional 4x4's at a local lumber co. The grade was called "ornamental/ deck" and the grading gave me goose bumps. One of the 8 footers had perfectly vertical grain the full 8ft. When I ripped it the kerf followed the same growth ring nearly full length. I have tried with no success to get more detailed comparative info. from Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, WI. Not to be discouraged, I built a rib using the WRC, 1/16GL-2 3ply and T88. Using the guidelines suggested in AirCamper.org/info/tips and tricks/testing rib strength, I built a test jig that uses controlled spring force vs. bulk weight. I applied the force at the incremental spacing listed. I was very pleased to see the 204# load with no ill effects. I continued to load in 1.4# increments until I ran out of spring travel, at which point the rib sustained a 358# load! I would be interested in hearing from those of you have have tested ANY ribs and what pitfalls I might face with using the WRC for ribs. By the way a 4x4x8ft. "post" was $20. Two of them will make 90 cap strips. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: USELESS JIBBERISH
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Gordon, I agree with you. When I got back from my trip to Oshkosh and Brodhead there were 1028 messages waiting for me. The biggest percent were "jibberish". You didn't hear me complain. It took less than 1 second to delete each one I wasn't interested in. Kind of like scanning through a monthly magazine. I have never found one that had every word that interested me. Besides, it was "jibberish" (something that had nothing to do with building a Piet-is that the definition?) about six months ago that resulted in the Great Piet Assault on Airventure99 last month. Sorry for adding more "jibberish" but I have been on some lists where a great question is asked and all the response goes directly to the person asking the question. I soon dropped that list because I wasn't learning anything. I would rather pay the price with using the delete key than miss out. Every once in a while there is gold buried in the mounds... I figure it is the price paid for the gold and living in a free world. Ted >Ah MIke > >Which messageges were you speaking about? > >I go thru at least 500 messages a day and find it easy to delete the >ones that don't pertain to something I want to read. > >Maybe it just does not bother me. > >Gordon > > >mike cushway wrote: > >> GUYS! >> >> When making a personal response PLEASE don't reply to the group! >> It's getting out of hand. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: RIB TESTING RESULTS
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Steve wrote: Is there anyone here that can tell me where I can buy some of this western red cedar?? I live in Mississippi so I am looking near here or how can I order some and NOT break the home bank. Steve writes: > Group, > I , like many of you, have been searching for an alternative to > Sitka for use on the Pietenpol. I have been intrigued > by Western Red Cedar ever since seeing some exceptional 4x4's at a > local > lumber co. The grade was called "ornamental/ > deck" and the grading gave me goose bumps. One of the 8 footers had > perfectly vertical grain the full 8ft. When I ripped > it the kerf followed the same growth ring nearly full length. I have > tried with no success to get more detailed comparative info. from > Forest > Products Laboratory in Madison, WI. Not to be discouraged, I built a > rib > using the WRC, 1/16GL-2 3ply and > T88. Using the guidelines suggested in AirCamper.org/info/tips and > tricks/testing rib strength, I built a test jig that uses > controlled spring force vs. bulk weight. I applied the force at the > incremental spacing listed. I was very pleased to see > the 204# load with no ill effects. I continued to load in 1.4# > increments until I ran out of spring travel, at which point > the rib sustained a 358# load! I would be interested in hearing from > those of you have have tested ANY ribs and what > pitfalls I might face with using the WRC for ribs. By the way a > 4x4x8ft. > "post" was $20. Two of them will make 90 cap > strips. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 21, 1999
I guess this has been done many different ways but, I have the tail assy per the print with the coil spring and swing arms. Instead of the skid/blade, added on a swiveling steerable tailwheel. Should the wheel be steered by cables attached to rudder cables inside the fuse ( more cables to pierce the skin) , or are they hooked to a horn on the rudder itself? If so, wouldn't this put too much twisting force on the rudder wood structure? If from the fuse rudder cables, at what distance forward in the tail? need all your input. thanks, Walt I guess this has been done many different ways but, I have the tail assy per the print with the coil spring and swing arms. Instead of the skid/blade, added on a swiveling steerable tailwheel. Should the wheel be steered by cables attached to rudder cables inside the fuse ( more cables to pierce the skin) , or are they hooked to a horn on the rudder itself? If so, wouldn't this put too much twisting force on the rudder wood structure? If from the fuse rudder cables, at what distance forward in the tail? need all your input. thanks, Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GREA738(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 21, 1999
DO NOT connect the tail wheel steering to the rudder post. It was NOT designed to take the torsional stress. There are other ways, full swivel or swivel & lock for take off is good. Other ideas ??? DG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Walt, I'm no expert, but I have a second set of cables going to the tail wheel. J-3 Cubs and others are attached to the rudder. I don't know why ours aren't. I tseemed odd to me to have extra holes in the fabric. I did it according to plans and have the extra holes. I'd do it different next time. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 -----Original Message----- From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 5:04 PM Subject: tailwheel cable attach points? I guess this has been done many different ways but, I have the tail assy per the print with the coil spring and swing arms. Instead of the skid/blade, added on a swiveling steerable tailwheel. Should the wheel be steered by cables attached to rudder cables inside the fuse ( more cables to pierce the skin) , or are they hooked to a horn on the rudder itself? If so, wouldn't this put too much twisting force on the rudder wood structure? If from the fuse rudder cables, at what distance forward in the tail? need all your input. thanks, Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: OT - USELESS JIBBERISH
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Ted I guess it is defined by anybody what Jibberish is, I agree with the Jibberish leading up to the Piet assult on BroadHead. Had nothing to do with building and I was not going even if I had a piet built, just no funds this year, I went last year. But that would be considered good jibberish. I am not one to tell someone else what he can or cannot say on any list, but their are things that should never be said on a list, I learn alot form these lists and enjoy what anyone has to say, Yes, dig the gold out and throw the rest away into the trash can. I have another email address I thought was history when I quit the ISP. Low and behold I went their a couple weeks ago and I had 3700 messages, most were from aircraft lists I had back then and not now. I had the systems guy delete them all for me as I could not do all at once. I used to be a systems admin at the Navy Civ job I had. I use Netscape 4.5 and it is easy to go thru my email daily but I have had some services where it was just plain hard to deal with over 50 messages, so maybe some of these people on the list are using slow email programs and I can understand their concern with Jibberish. I have a new 450 mhz system coming soon and maybe the email will be even faster handling then. Thanks Gordon Ted Brousseau wrote: > Gordon, > > I agree with you. When I got back from my trip to Oshkosh and Brodhead > there were 1028 messages waiting for me. The biggest percent were > "jibberish". You didn't hear me complain. It took less than 1 second to > delete each one I wasn't interested in. Kind of like scanning through a > monthly magazine. I have never found one that had every word that > interested me. > > Besides, it was "jibberish" (something that had nothing to do with building > a Piet-is that the definition?) about six months ago that resulted in the > Great Piet Assault on Airventure99 last month. > > Sorry for adding more "jibberish" but I have been on some lists where a > great question is asked and all the response goes directly to the person > asking the question. I soon dropped that list because I wasn't learning > anything. I would rather pay the price with using the delete key than miss out. > > Every once in a while there is gold buried in the mounds... I figure it is > the price paid for the gold and living in a free world. > > Ted > > >Ah MIke > > > >Which messageges were you speaking about? > > > >I go thru at least 500 messages a day and find it easy to delete the > >ones that don't pertain to something I want to read. > > > >Maybe it just does not bother me. > > > >Gordon > > > > > > > > > >mike cushway wrote: > > > >> GUYS! > >> > >> When making a personal response PLEASE don't reply to the group! > >> It's getting out of hand. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Walt, I attached to the rudder cables as they came back just behind the pilot's seat, with just enough movement allowed to avoid interference. I also made my rudder stops using swaged sleeves on the rudder cable. They hit against the seat structure which may not be the best solution and may have to be modified after I see how they work in the real world. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Walt Evans....Walt, I neglected to say that the attach at the tailwheel is on horns that are a part of the full swivel tailwheel assbly. This is a small lightweight unit that I bought from a source in Calif. I used it before on another plane with no problems. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 21, 1999
Mike, I am confused. You tell me you fly without a radio and give me the incentive to fly NORADO for two weeks and love every minute of it when I have a radio because I fly out of a towered field. And now that I am convinced NORADO is the way to go you up and start talking radio....? Seriously, we have a wire antenna mounted on the bottom of the fuselage just behind the rear cockpit. You should be able to pick up one used for around $10 max. They come straight, 45 degree bend and (guessing here) 60 degree bend. We have the latter. Mounted on the bottom of the fuselage (inside), just behind the seat back, is a 2 foot by 2 foot piece of flat aluminum for the ground plane that has been mentioned. Works great. Ted P.S. You want to get a microphone that sounds good in an open cockpit. I think a helicopter mike will work well. Maybe someone else could help here. >Group- Thank you for the excellent advice on >antennas for handhelds.....now if I can scrounge up >some cash to buy the handheld ! > >Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Saw Piet with tail wheel horn cable, attached to rudder horn cable, prior to rudder cable entry into fuse. Didn't pay that much attention to clamping device but was a clean connection. This was on an old Piet (at Sport Flyers airport northwest of Houston) so it must have worked. This Piet didn't have cutout in wing above pilot area. I would not like that at all, too old to fight entry hassle, not to mention lack of visibility forward & up. John D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OT - USELESS JIBBERISH
Date: Aug 22, 1999
If I build a Piet at all, and am leaning that way for sure, it will be because of 'jibberish". I have admired the Piet for long time, but there are hundreds of other neat planes out there. The "jibberish" on this site, with it's humor & obivious friendly people made me think that I would like to be part of this. It appears that you guys have a great time even when on the ground. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert hensarling <rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: OT - USELESS JIBBERISH
Date: Aug 22, 1999
-----Original Message----- From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com <TXTdragger(at)aol.com> Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 8:52 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: OT - USELESS JIBBERISH The only "useless jibberish" I've seen on this list was the initial complaint about useless jibberish. Robert Hensarling http://www.mesquite-furniture.com rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com Uvalde, Texas >If I build a Piet at all, and am leaning that way for sure, it will be >because of 'jibberish". I have admired the Piet for long time, but there are >hundreds of other neat planes out there. The "jibberish" on this site, with >it's humor & obivious friendly people made me think that I would like to be >part of this. It appears that you guys have a great time even when on the >ground. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 22, 1999
This conversation begs for the introduction of the idea that a direct cable linkage to the tail wheel horn leaves one open to loss of rudder control if the tail wheel should be damaged or jammed in some way. Including a spring in the tail wheel link allows forcefully over-riding the spring to get at least some rudder control. Having suffered a damaged tail wheel, I can assure you that rudder control takes on new meaning. Of course, it becomes another one of those compromise things where you have to decide how strong the springs should be to allow tail wheel authority and still be able to over-ride it. John W Kerrville, Tx jandd(at)maverickbbs.com -----Original Message----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com <TXTdragger(at)aol.com>
Date: - - - , 20-
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
>Saw Piet with tail wheel horn cable, attached to rudder horn cable, prior to >rudder cable entry into fuse. Didn't pay that much attention to clamping >device but was a clean connection. This was on an old Piet (at Sport Flyers >airport northwest of Houston) so it must have worked. This Piet didn't have >cutout in wing above pilot area. I would not like that at all, too old to >fight entry hassle, not to mention lack of visibility forward & up. > >John D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OT - USELESS JIBBERISH don't think so
Date: Aug 22, 1999
I also belong to an Air Warrior III Squad (an online WW2 flight game), and the "jibberish' is out standing. I have met a lot of guys & gals from all over the world that love airplane & flying. If you have a computer try www.gamestorm.com not a Piet for sure but for some their only chance to "fly". By the way, any hotshot pilot might get a dose of humility at any time there. Where else can you "jibberish" (real time) with other gunners on B17 (on long mission) & realize none are actually within 1,500 miles with another. Like I was in Houston & one was in NW Canada. Thurs nite there was 1,200 people flying in over 12 arenas (250 max per arena). You can actually talk (not type) to each other while flying, using VOX. If you are already online gamestorm cost $9.99/mo..cheap thrill. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: tailwheel
Date: Aug 22, 1999
For what it's worth, here is what I did. I got a 3 inch tailwheel from an outfit in Calf. It has horns. I modified it to fit the Piet spring, I led the cables thru pulleys on the last fuselage station,& then thru the seat back to the rudder bar. The rudder cables run independently the rudder bar. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: RIB TESTING RESULTS and Alternative woods too.
Date: Aug 22, 1999
I haven't done any load testing but I have had some experience with cedar. In my case, Port Orford Cedar. Port Orford Cedar is a white wood and is on the list of approved Aircraft woods. The reasons for this approval is that it falls between spruce and fir in weight and strength is more resistant to splitting than either. It is as easy to work as spruce and glues well. The clincher for me is that it is rot PROOF. I have seen it in service where oak has turned to powder, fir is falling apart but the Port Orford Cedar is ready for another 50 years service. The one problem with Port Orford Cedar is availability. I would expect that only folks in the Pacific Northwest will be able to find it. I do know that ship loads of it were being sent off to Japan at 20 cents a board foot a few years ago. This was a good deal for the Japanese who revere white cedars, not so good for boat and aircraft builders in the U.S. who do likewise. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: OT - USELESS JIBBERISH don't think so
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Thats interesting. Are you actually flying one on one or in a flight crew doing a mission? Sounds like something I could be interested in when my new computer gets here. Thanks for the interesting Jibberish. Gordon TXTdragger(at)aol.com wrote: > I also belong to an Air Warrior III Squad (an online WW2 flight game), and > the "jibberish' is out standing. I have met a lot of guys & gals from all > over the world that love airplane & flying. If you have a computer try > www.gamestorm.com not a Piet for sure but for some their only chance to > "fly". By the way, any hotshot pilot might get a dose of humility at any > time there. Where else can you "jibberish" (real time) with other gunners on > B17 (on long mission) & realize none are actually within 1,500 miles with > another. Like I was in Houston & one was in NW Canada. Thurs nite there was > 1,200 people flying in over 12 arenas (250 max per arena). You can actually > talk (not type) to each other while flying, using VOX. If you are already > online gamestorm cost $9.99/mo..cheap thrill. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joe & Marian Beck <flyretina(at)feist.com>
Subject: Re: 'Plane Crazy"
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Ken Hannan: Would you please put me in line to borrow your tape. I completely missed the thing and would like very much to see the 30 day miracle man after Greg. Thanks. CJB - Wichita ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Wichita Piets - Jibberish
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Hi Joe, Doug, Chuck, I just wanted to drop you a note to intro myself. I am a Pietenpol nut from way back and only recently got onto this discussion group. I for one have to applaud the Jibberish because it is inspiring me to get back to what I wanted to do 10 years ago. After contacting him thru here I met Chuck Gantzer and went to visit him yesterday. He showed me his project and then pictures of Doug's and Joe's local projects. I had no idea there was this kind of interest in Wichita. Seeing Chucks wing almost complete and the level of interest in the area has put the bug in me to get back to the project I tried to start in 1989 but didn't follow thru because my ex wife didn't like having a shop in the spare bedroom. Well she's history now...so I am going for it. In fact, I have already been to see Gus Weebie about supplying some of the wood materials I need. He quoted me a good price to provide spars for the 3-piece wing. I am needing to get my hands on a copy of Vi Kapler's 3-piece wing drawings so I can get gus started. The set of plans I bought from Orrin Hoopman did not have the 3PW drawings. I already have a rib jig I built in 1989. I have compared it with Chucks ribs to find only some minor differences. I am off today to look for some cap-strip material. I want to see what kind of WRCedar is available in town. Chuck and I weighed my Douglas FIR rib built 10 yrs ago to find it was 4.5 oz. heavier than his cedar ones. Looks like Cedar is a good choice to me. I think I might drop into Benton this afternoon and see if anyone is around. See you on the 11th at the Benton Piet Fly-in. Terry Bowden ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kyle ray <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net>
Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper
Date: Jul 25, 1999
I ordered 160 board ft' of clear douglas fur along with 1/6, birch,1/18 and 1/4 marine grade okoume enough to almost build two Piets was 2500.00 including shipping. ----- Original Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lauren Williams <LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: The Cost of Spruce for an Air Camper
> I have had much better luck buying spruce from Wicks. I have received > some poor material from Aircraft spruce, also they only finish it on two > sides. Wicks' spruce is all sanded to dimension on all four sides. > > http://www.wicks.com/aircraft > > At one point, I ordered a seven lb. kit of glue and 195 ft. of 1/4 x 1/2 > cap strip from Aircraft Spruce. What I received was, 7 kits of glue and > about 20 ft. of cap strip, only half of which was usable due to slash > grain. That's when I started buying from Wicks. > > I have been very pleased with both their materials and their service. > > Lauren > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AirWIarrior III JIBBERISH last one
Date: Aug 22, 1999
I will answer this one on Piet channel, in case someone else is interested, but in future will go direct. You can fly, gun, whatever. It was slow night, so 5 of us gunned & BS'd on intercom while OTW to target. Norm is to fly escort on fighter, & buff has only pilot. Pilot puts on autopilot & becomes bombidere over target. There are about 20 aircraft you can fly, according to mission & skill level. There is no a/c that is best, all have good & bad traits, like the real world. You have to learn to fly each type plane, landing alone, takes several days of practice, because if you blow landing you lose 66% of score for that flight. Anyway try www.gamestorm.com and they will walk you thru it. Don't get discouraged because of site problems, like all they are having trouble with demand. First month is free & you can withdraw with NO Charge. Wish I did own stock in it, as it may appear......but I don't.......just a total airplane nut. WARNING.......IT IS VERY ADDICTIVE........ John Davis txtdragger(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: Tail Wheel
Date: Aug 22, 1999
John W talked about a damaged tail wheel. I had one also on my second flight. The Scott tail wheel was fine, but the spring wasn't a real spring and during taxi runs it went straight and now my wheel is up touching the rudder. I was airborne and couldn't figure out why all I had was left rudder. I couldn't get the rudder past neutral because the tail wheel blocked it. I landed all right and bought a new Taylorcraft leaf spring from Aircraft Spruce the next day. I still think the tailwheel horn should be connected to the rudder horn like on Aeronca's, J-3's etc. Do we know something they don't? Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Susan Little
Subject: unsubscribe please
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Please eliminate me from subscription list - I spend most of my e-mail time with this and keep getting double messages on top of it. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: WHEW!
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Just finished my last rib last night. Now I spent the afternoon trimming the "gusset overhang". Thats 24 ribs and 4 end ribs in the books. ( three piece wing, center sect. made already) Walt Just finished my last rib last night. Now I spent the afternoon trimming the gusset overhang. Thats 24 ribs and 4 end ribs in the books. ( three piece wing, center sect. made already) Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com>
Subject: Re: WHEW!
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Walt, You are now entitled to do a rib jig which is a little dance you do when the last one is completed. John W -----Original Message----- From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 4:20 PM Subject: WHEW! Just finished my last rib last night. Now I spent the afternoon trimming the "gusset overhang". Thats 24 ribs and 4 end ribs in the books. ( three piece wing, center sect. made already) Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Unsubscribe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Most people connect the tailwheel steering cables to the rudder cables, swedging outside the plane after the rudder cables exit the fuselage. These cannot be connected direct, but must have a spring at the tailwheel steering arm so the rudder and tailwheel can have some independent movement. John Langston >DO NOT connect the tail wheel steering to the rudder post. It was NOT > >designed to take the torsional stress. >There are other ways, full swivel or swivel & lock for take off is >good. >Other ideas ??? >DG __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Plywood ribs.
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Steve, While plywood ribs are quicker to make, they are also heavier. This is why so many planes use built up ribs. John Langston writes: >Steve > >Mohawk, Avid, Kitfox, Prospector all use plywood ribs with cap >strips. >Mohawk has a 1" wide cap strip and the spars are 2 1/2" alum tubing >with >capstrip glued right over it connecting to aileron section. Not sure >just >what the Kitfox has for sure. > >Gordon > > >vistin(at)juno.com wrote: > >> I got my copy of Kitpalnes today and while reading the article I >noticed >> the Piet written about used solid plywood ribs. Is this possible?? I >am >> interested in this as I did build a Stewart headwind using the same >type >> rib construction. >> If so should I use a cap strip?? >> >> Steve > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Continental engines
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Wind driven generators are as old as the hills-they were used in the First World War. I used to fly an Aeronca Champ with such a generator and it suppiled power diectly to the radio we were required to use. There was no battery involved and to talk to the tower on the ground required running the engine up to 1500 RPM to get enough juice for the radio to work. We could not hear the tower when taxiing at lower RPMs. John Langston writes: >Great Idea! People are now wider, taller and need creature comforts. >Did you also add the door modification? The tradition, as I see it, is >that B. P. >tried many things to improve the parasol design and, if he was living >now, would >applaud all the experimentation. > >As to Continentals w/o generator/alternators, have you guys seen the >generator >mounted within the landing gear and driven by a RC propeller? Trade a >little drag >to recharge the battery for your handheld or ?? > >jshutic(at)nordson.com wrote: > >> Steve, some additional details are offered concerning my >"wide-body" >> Aircamper. First of all, much thanks to Mike Cuy who let me look >over his >> ... >> Hardly a traditional Piet, but an enjoyable project all the same. > > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: continental engines
Date: Aug 22, 1999
John, Franklin made a two cylinder, 60 HP engine back in the early 70s. It was sold in a Champion 7ACA which was to be an updated "Airknocker", but didn't sell well. I worked on one about 1972. John Langston writes: >Doesn't Franklin make a two cyl engine of 50 hp or so also? Seems >that >would beat the socks off of a 40 hp Model A. >John W >-----Original Message----- >From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:19 PM >Subject: Re: continental engines > > >>Well, I'm finally back from my 3.5 week vacation and road trip from >>Calgary, AB to St. John's, NF. That's a 13000 km round trip. >>Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time to make it to B'head or >OSH >>despite the fact that we were fairly close by. However, next year we >hope >>to be to OSH in the Christavia. >> >>As for engines, another possibility in the same price range is the >new >>Franklins. I know I've mentioned them before, but heck, I like them. >They >>weigh 240 lbs with accessories, puts out 120 hp and will fit on a >>continental mount. Strip off the accessories an you will end up with >a 200 >>lb engine. Although the thrust will be higher than an 0-200 or >simular >>engine, I don't think it would be too much for the Piet frame as it's >a >>much smoother engine than other 4 bangers due to a viscuously damped >>flywheel. >> >>My 150 hp version should be here early next month!! >> >>Just a thought. >>Ken >> >>On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Michael Brusilow wrote: >> >>> Dave wrote: >>> >>> >a >>> Piet. Forget about a starter though. The added weight and addition >of an >>> electrical system will add 10 to 16 lbs for a gen., 16 lbs for a >>> starter, another 20 lbs for a battery, wiring, switches . . . You >will >>> end up with a one place airplane with poor performance. Hand >proping is >>> neither dificult or dangerous as long as you know what you are >doing. >>> Get someone who knows and have them teach you. You will be glad you >did >>> with the improved performance of an airplane about 50 lbs >lighter.> >>> >>> Don't know about that. >>> >>> I have been flying my Aircamper with an 0-200, starter & altenator >for 8 >>> yrs. Two years prior, it had Ford engine. >>> >>> My power configuration ( battery included ) does not weigh as much >as >>> the Ford engine plus the radtiator & water. ( give or take a few >pounds >>> in either direction ). >>> >>> As for performance, my aircraft cruises a + or - 80 mph at 2250 rpm >( >>> which is low for an 0-200 ) & climbs at approx 600 ft/min depending >on >>> the oat. No problem with two people. >>> >>> Poor performance? Try Ford Piet on a hot day from a short grass >strip >>> with trees at the end of the runway. >>> >>> Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>When once you have tasted flight, you will always walk with your >eyes >>turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always >be. >> >> > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: unsubscribe please
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Sounds like the computer subscribed you twice. Did you save the message that tells you how to unsubscribe? Let me know if not and I will go find mine and send it to you. GB Susan Little wrote: > Please eliminate me from subscription list - I spend most of my e-mail time > with this and keep getting double messages on top of it. > > Thank you. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ethos Atlanta <ethosatlanta(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: unsuscribe please
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Please remove me from subscription list - I spend most of my e-mail time with this and keep getting duplicate messages. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Warren Shoun wrote: > Unsubscribe OK Folks, This is the message you were asked to save, case you were going on vacation, Got Mad, or other reason to unsubscribe. Read below and please everyone save this message.!! Gordon Welcome to the Pietenpol Discussion Mailing List This list is for builders, pilots, owners, enthusiasts, and anyone else interested in this 60+ year old design. Anyone is welcome to present questions/answers to the lists, and participation is encouraged. Hopefully this will be a forum that will encourage and promote the Pietenpol design for another 60+ years. To subscribe to this list send a message to: listserv(at)ucsnet.BYU.EDU Include the following line in the message body: SUBSCRIBE PIET To unsubscribe from this list at any time, send a message to: listserv(at)ucsnet.BYU.EDU Include the following line in the message body: UNSUBSCRIBE PIET To send mail to the list use: PIET(at)BYU.EDU Thanks, and enjoy. Steve Eldredge (list manager and piet builder) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: WHEW!
Date: Aug 22, 1999
John, You know I didn't know about that .......but I still did it. walt -----Original Message----- From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 6:03 PM Subject: Re: WHEW! Walt, You are now entitled to do a rib jig which is a little dance you do when the last one is completed. John W From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 4:20 PM Subject: WHEW! Just finished my last rib last night. Now I spent the afternoon trimming the "gusset overhang". Thats 24 ribs and 4 end ribs in the books. ( three piece wing, center sect. made already) Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: WHEW!
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Walt Did you take vedio so you can post it on DeCostas Web page? GB walter evans wrote: > John,You know I didn't know about that .......but I still did > it.walt > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 6:03 PM > Subject: Re: WHEW! > Walt,You are now entitled to do a rib jig which is a > little dance you do when the last one is completed.John W > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: WHEW!
Date: Aug 22, 1999
GB Naw,,,got two left feet. walt -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Brimhall To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 7:24 PM Subject: Re: WHEW! Walt Did you take vedio so you can post it on DeCostas Web page? GB walter evans wrote: John,You know I didn't know about that .......but I still did it.walt dance you do when the last one is completed.John W afternoon trimming the "gusset overhang". Thats 24 ribs and 4 end ribs in the books. ( three piece wing, center sect. made already)Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: WHEW!
Date: Aug 22, 1999
I really ment did you get a Video of it. Keys on backwards on my keyboard:-)) Gordon Brimhall wrote: > Walt > > Did you take vedio so you can post it on DeCostas Web page? > > GB > > > walter evans wrote: > >> John,You know I didn't know about that .......but I still did >> it.walt >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> >> To: Pietenpol Discussion >> Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 6:03 PM >> Subject: Re: WHEW! >> Walt,You are now entitled to do a rib jig which is a >> little dance you do when the last one is completed.John >> W >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: 'member this?- Registration Numbers
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Walt, I don't have the reg in front of me, but there is a loophole that allows some liberties with replicas. Piets are considered replicas of planes that were registered by the CAA in those days. All of the antique airplane guys and particularly the replica builders homed in on the loophole long ago. The reg allows you to use markings authentic to the era of the plane including "N" plus "C" or "R" or "X". There are the basic requirements for size and "N" at minimum must precede the number. I will get the actual reg out at work tomorrow and double check the wording. Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 'member this?- Registration Numbers
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Terry, thanks, I would be very interested to read it. walt -----Original Message----- From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 7:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 'member this?- Registration Numbers >Walt, > I don't have the reg in front of me, but there is a loophole that allows >some liberties with replicas. Piets are considered replicas of planes that >were registered by the CAA in those days. All of the antique airplane guys >and particularly the replica builders homed in on the loophole long ago. The >reg allows you to use markings authentic to the era of the plane including >"N" plus "C" or "R" or "X". There are the basic requirements for size and >"N" at minimum must precede the number. I will get the actual reg out at >work tomorrow and double check the wording. > Terry > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Tail Wheel
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Tim, sure, they know that their fuselage is welded tubing...we know that ours is glued wood unless of course you are one of the few who went to a tube fuselage. Isn't that what the concern is...the high stress levels on the wood rudder...even though you attach to the horn. At least that's the message I got. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: New Builder Needs Special Plans
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Hello, I am doing the research for a friend (who does not have a computer) that is building a Piet. He has the Model A engine almost complete, and is ready to start on the fuselage (and he is really anxious!). He needs the plans for the three piece wing and the full size template (plans?) for the wing rib. Is there a single place where these items can be purchased without purchasing other plans? Also, he has been told to build the "longer" fuselage. His plans are for a 163 inch fuselage. Should he build the "longer" fuselage, and if so, where can he get the plans for it? Thanks very much, Glenn trying to locate the full size template (plans?) for the wing rib. Also need the three piece wing plan. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Marginal Aviation
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Any of the old "Marginal Aviation" gang in the discussion group? My earliest meories of Pietenpols is from the Antique Airplane gatherings at Blakesburgh Iowa in the '70's. Guys like Forrest Lovely, Alex Whitmore, and Gary Hansen were always there with a Piet in one form or another. Anyone know those guys? Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hatz630(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: 'member this?
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Walt, The regs say: FAR 45.22(b) A small U.S. registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a U.S. registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operationg as an exhibition aircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago, may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if: (1) It displays in accordance with 45.21(c) marks at least 2" high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface .... So the bottom line is since the first Piet was built more than 30 years ago you can use the 2" letters. Scott > Just wanted to share what inspired me to build a Pietenpol. Was looking for > a project and then got issue. 'nuff said. > Now I have a question. When it comes to "N" numbers. Jim Malley talks of > a FAR 45.22, which says that an aircraft designed more than 30 years ago is > exempt from many of the current markings. Since then I've talked with a guy > who , last year finished a Kitfox, and he said that that reg has more strings > on it than it's worth. > Has any or all of you guys registered yours with this reg? > Fill me in, please. > walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TJTREV(at)webtv.net (Theodore Trevorrow)
Subject: Re: New Builder Needs Special Plans
Date: Aug 22, 1999
Glenn Don Pietenpol has everything you need. Ted. T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: 'member this?
Date: Aug 22, 1999
You would be surprised at how many of our "FAA Friends" don't know this regulation !!!!! BIG HINT=copy this and keep it your airframe logbook and a copy of it IN YOUR AIRPLANE AT ALL TIMES !!!! This came right from the mouth of the Cleveland, Ohio Chief of MIDO !!! MIDO does the initial airworthiness thing to get you going. Down the road somewhere a FSDO Aviation Safety Inspector might approach you being fresh out of "Fed school" just looking to Violate you because HE doesn't know the rules! This happens all the time. (Ask Bob Hoover). Anybody read his latest book entitled "AIR OF INJUSTICE" ? If not, you cannot believe what happened to that man and numerous others. Do your homework and in certain cases, TAKE IT WITH YOU! Earl (the Fed antagonist) Myers -----Original Message----- From: Hatz630(at)aol.com <Hatz630(at)aol.com> Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 10:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 'member this? >Walt, The regs say: >FAR 45.22(b) A small U.S. registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or >a U.S. registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been >issued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operationg as an exhibition aircraft >or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external configuration >as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago, may be operated without >displaying marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if: >(1) It displays in accordance with 45.21(c) marks at least 2" high on each >side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface .... > >So the bottom line is since the first Piet was built more than 30 years ago >you can use the 2" letters. > >Scott > > >> Just wanted to share what inspired me to build a Pietenpol. Was looking >for >> a project and then got issue. 'nuff said. >> Now I have a question. When it comes to "N" numbers. Jim Malley talks >of >> a FAR 45.22, which says that an aircraft designed more than 30 years ago is >> exempt from many of the current markings. Since then I've talked with a >guy >> who , last year finished a Kitfox, and he said that that reg has more >strings >> on it than it's worth. >> Has any or all of you guys registered yours with this reg? >> Fill me in, please. >> walt > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Everett L. Schermerhorn" <musical(at)rconnect.com>
Subject: piet
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Please unsubscribe me from the Pietenpol mailing list. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu>
Subject: FAR45.22 was 'member this?
Date: Aug 23, 1999
The full text of 45.22 follows: (a) When display of aircraft nationality and registration marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 would be inconsistent with exhibition of that aircraft, a U.S.-registered aircraft may be operated without displaying those marks anywhere on the aircraft if: (1) It is operated for the purpose of exhibition, including a motion picture or television production, or an airshow; (2) Except for practice and test fights necessary for exhibition purposes, it is operated only at the location of the exhibition, between the exhibition locations, and between those locations and the base of operations of the aircraft; and (3) For each flight in the United States: (i) It is operated with the prior approval of the Flight Standards District Office, in the case of a flight within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for the takeoff airport, or within 4.4 nautical miles of that airport if it is within Class G airspace; or (ii) It is operated under a flight plan filed under either 91.153 or 91.169 of this chapter describing the marks it displays, in the case of any other flight. (b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a U.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibition aircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if: (1) It displays in accordance with 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of the Roman capital letter "N" followed by: (i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; or (ii) The symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft ("C", standard; "R", restricted; "L", limited; or "X", experimental) followed by the U.S. registration number of the aircraft; and (2) It displays no other mark that begins with the letter "N" anywhere on the aircraft, unless it is the same mark that is displayed under paragraph (b)(1) of this section. (c) No person may operate an aircraft under paragraph (a) or (b) of this section - (1) In an ADIZ or DEWIZ described in Part 99 of this chapter unless it temporarily bears marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 ; (2) In a foreign country unless that country consents to that operation; or (3) In any operation conducted under Part 121, 127, 133, 135, or 137 of this chapter. (d) If, due to the configuration of an aircraft, it is impossible for a person to mark it in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 , he may apply to the Administrator for a different marking procedure. If you want to operate IAW 45.22 (a) there are a lot of restrictions, but 45.22 (b) allows you to use 2" numbers, use NX, not put "experimental" at the cockpit entrance, and the only restriction is that you can't fly thru an ADIZ or DEWIZ and if you want to operate in a foreign country unless they ok it. That's not many restictions in my book! walter evans wrote: > ( Jim Malley are you out there?)Just wanted to share what inspired me > to build a Pietenpol. Was looking for a project and then got issue. > 'nuff said.Now I have a question. When it comes to "N" numbers. Jim > Malley talks of a FAR 45.22, which says that an aircraft designed > more than 30 years ago is exempt from many of the current markings. > Since then I've talked with a guy who , last year finished a Kitfox, > and he said that that reg has more strings on it than it's worth. Has > any or all of you guys registered yours with this reg?Fill me in, > please.walt -- David B.Schober, CPE Instructor, Aviation Maintenance Fairmont State College National Aerospace Education Center 1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503 (304) 842-8300 The full text of 45.22 follows: (a) When display of aircraft nationality and registration marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 would be inconsistent with exhibition of that aircraft, a U.S.-registered aircraft may be operated without displaying those marks anywhere on the aircraft if: (1) It is operated for the purpose of exhibition, including a motion picture or television production, or an airshow; (2) Except for practice and test fights necessary for exhibition purposes, it is operated only at the location of the exhibition, between the exhibition locations, and between those locations and the base of operations of the aircraft; and (3) For each flight in the United States: (i) It is operated with the prior approval of the Flight Standards District Office, in the case of a flight within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for the takeoff airport, or within 4.4 nautical miles of that airport if it is within Class G airspace; or (ii) It is operated under a flight plan filed under either 91.153 or 91.169 of this chapter describing the marks it displays, in the case of any other flight. (b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a U.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibition aircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if: (1) It displays in accordance with 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of the Roman capital letter "N" followed by: (i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; or (ii) The symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft ("C", standard; "R", restricted; "L", limited; or "X", experimental) followed by the U.S. registration number of the aircraft; and (2) It displays no other mark that begins with the letter "N" anywhere on the aircraft, unless it is the same mark that is displayed under paragraph (b)(1) of this section. (c) No person may operate an aircraft under paragraph (a) or (b) of this section - (1) In an ADIZ or DEWIZ described in Part 99 of this chapter unless it temporarily bears marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 ; (2) In a foreign country unless that country consents to that operation; or (3) In any operation conducted under Part 121, 127, 133, 135, or 137 of this chapter. (d) If, due to the configuration of an aircraft, it is impossible for a person to mark it in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 , he may apply to the Administrator for a different marking procedure. If you want to operate IAW 45.22 (a) there are a lot of restrictions, but 45.22 (b) allows you to use 2" numbers, use NX, not put "experimental" at the cockpit entrance, and the only restriction is that you can't fly thru an ADIZ or DEWIZ and if you want to operate in a foreign country unless they ok it. That's not many restictions in my book! walter evans wrote: ( Jim Malley are you out there?)Just wanted to share what inspired me to build a Pietenpol. Was looking for a project and then got issue. 'nuff said.Now I have a question. When it comes to "N" numbers. Jim Malley talks of a FAR 45.22, which says that an aircraft designed more than 30 years ago is exempt from many of the current markings. Since then I've talked with a guy who , last year finished a Kitfox, and he said that that reg has more strings on it than it's worth.Has any or all of you guys registered yours with this reg?Fill me in, please.walt -- David B.Schober, CPE Instructor, Aviation Maintenance Fairmont State College National Aerospace Education Center 1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503 (304) 842-8300 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu>
Subject: Re: Marginal Aviation
Date: Aug 23, 1999
I used to run with the "Marginal" group. I saw Forrest, Alex and Marty at OSH this year. Went to Blakesburg last year for the first time since '86 or '87 and saw Gary there. BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote: > Any of the old "Marginal Aviation" gang in the discussion group? My earliest > meories of Pietenpols is from the Antique Airplane gatherings at Blakesburgh > Iowa in the '70's. Guys like Forrest Lovely, Alex Whitmore, and Gary Hansen > were always there with a Piet in one form or another. Anyone know those guys? > Terry -- David B.Schober, CPE Instructor, Aviation Maintenance Fairmont State College National Aerospace Education Center 1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503 (304) 842-8300 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: 'member this?
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Walt- The 30 year old design deal with that FAR that allows you to use NX------- is used by us to ELIMINATE the need for the big EXPERIMENTAL sign otherwise required. In other words, if you use the NX you don't need that big ugly sign inside or outside of your aircraft. Don't let the FAA boys tell you otherwise.....have the reg. printed out and hand it to him with your other paperwork. My guy didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.....so I just handed him the reg a let him read it. NOTE: the FAA in OKC will not recognize that NX when you register or get your airworthiness certificate ! It is merely an X in place of that EXPERIMENTAL billboard. Just a marking, not something on paper. It's a neat little thing to know about....thank you to Frank Pavliga Sr. and Jr. for telling me about this rule. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 23, 1999
BHP recommended attaching the tailwheel steering cables to the rudder bar 4 inches out from the pivot point. This info is on the supplemental plans sold by Orrin Hoopman. Greg Cardinal >>> walter evans 08/21 4:03 PM >>> I guess this has been done many different ways but, I have the tail assy per the print with the coil spring and swing arms. Instead of the skid/blade, added on a swiveling steerable tailwheel. Should the wheel be steered by cables attached to rudder cables inside the fuse ( more cables to pierce the skin) , or are they hooked to a horn on the rudder itself? If so, wouldn't this put too much twisting force on the rudder wood structure? If from the fuse rudder cables, at what distance forward in the tail? need all your input. thanks, Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joe Santana
Subject: Re: tailwheel cable attach points?
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Donot attach to rudder or rudder cables. Weld an extra set of tabs to rudder bar approx. 4" either side of center hinge point and run another set of cables to tail wheel. This will allow the tail wheel arc the same as the rudder Joe Santana N444MH >From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: tailwheel cable attach points? >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 18:03:24 -0400 > >I guess this has been done many different ways but, I have the tail assy >per the print with the coil spring and swing arms. Instead of the >skid/blade, added on a swiveling steerable tailwheel. >Should the wheel be steered by cables attached to rudder cables inside the >fuse ( more cables to pierce the skin) , or are they hooked to a horn on >the rudder itself? If so, wouldn't this put too much twisting force on the >rudder wood structure? > If from the fuse rudder cables, at what distance forward in the tail? >need all your input. >thanks, >Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Craig Lawler <clawler(at)ptd.net>
Subject: Re: Tail Wheel
Date: Aug 23, 1999
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Tim, I just broke my first tail wheel spring at a friends grass strip near home. A Scott. Replaced it with a John Deere cultivator spring. About 30% heavier. Seems to work great. Had the 4 year old neighbor kid with me when it happened. He said if he knew we were going to crash he would have brought his tool box. Stuff happens. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: HELP!! Basic Fuselage Confusion
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Help! My friend is very confused about which fuselage to build for an Air Camper powered by a Model A Ford engine. He is in his mid-70's and feels he has no time to waste. He wants to get it built, and to get it into the air! So he is pushing me to try and find some answers for him. I hope this group of Piet experts can help him. Here are the details of his most pressing problem: He purchased the Pietenpol Air Camper plans, fuselage sheet dated 1-19-33, length of fuselage is 163 inches. Several people have recommended building the "longer" fuselage version. He has been told by a Pietenpol builder to use poplar for the fuselage, because quality fir is just not available. Questions: Should he build the longer version? If so, what are the advantages? Where does one get the longer version plans (without having to buy other not needed plans)? Is poplar wood a good replacement for fir? Many, many thanks!! Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Holland
Subject: Re: 'member this?
Date: Aug 23, 1999
This is a great info pack for those of you south of the Border. Anybody know of any obscure regs that might apply to Canada? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Tail Wheel
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Don, you are absolutely right about the Champ and others having a tube structure and the rudder has the strength to attach the tail wheel there. I forgot that mine is made of sticks and cloth. I'm glad someone designed the Piet other than me. I have a Scott tail wheel with full swivel and it works great. I hate to have the extra holes for the second set of wires, but it does work good. I hate the flying wires too, but what do I know. I just love flying the thing. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 -----Original Message----- From: DonanClara(at)aol.com <DonanClara(at)aol.com> Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 7:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Wheel >Tim, sure, they know that their fuselage is welded tubing...we know that ours >is glued wood unless of course you are one of the few who went to a tube >fuselage. >Isn't that what the concern is...the high stress levels on the wood >rudder...even though you attach to the horn. At least that's the message I >got. >Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: NX instead of Experimental
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Mike and Gang, The FAA guys don't know how to read and interpret their own regs. My inspector didn't understand and insisted I have Experimental plastered on NX899TC. I put it on for him while he was standing there and ripped it off as soon as he signed my airworthiness certificate. So, having the reg doesn't help. He said if Oklahoma City put NX on the registration he would allow it. I called him a moron. I was nicer to him when he came back for the second inspection a few days later. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 'member this? >Walt- The 30 year old design deal with that FAR that allows you >to use NX------- is used by us to ELIMINATE the need for the big >EXPERIMENTAL sign otherwise required. In other words, if you use >the NX you don't need that big ugly sign inside or outside of your >aircraft. Don't let the FAA boys tell you otherwise.....have the reg. >printed out and hand it to him with your other paperwork. My guy >didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.....so I just handed >him the reg a let him read it. NOTE: the FAA in OKC will not recognize >that NX when you register or get your airworthiness certificate ! >It is merely an X in place of that EXPERIMENTAL billboard. Just a marking, >not something on paper. It's a neat little thing to know about....thank you >to Frank Pavliga Sr. and Jr. for telling me about this rule. > >Mike C. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: Blakesburg 99
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Any Piet guys heading to Blakesburg 3,4 or 5 September? I hear it's a great event to see lots of old Aircraft. One year they had 11 Pietenpols. If the weather holds NX899TC will be there. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Thanks for all "member this"
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Thanks to all who answered and will answer. That clears up alot for me and I'm sure others. Saved all the responses to my files. walt Thanks to all who answered and will answer. That clears up alot for me and I'm sure others. Saved all the responses to my files. walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: HELP!! Basic Fuselage Confusion
Date: Aug 23, 1999
--- >He purchased the Pietenpol Air Camper plans, fuselage sheet dated 1-19-33, >length of fuselage is 163 inches. > >Several people have recommended building the "longer" fuselage version. > The longer version is used if you are not using a heavy engine such as a Model A. If he is going with the A engine then build the short fuselage. >He has been told by a Pietenpol builder to use poplar for the fuselage, >because quality fir is just not available. Quality fir is available. Better yet use spruce like was intended. You can get all of the spruce from Western Aircraft in Calgary. Some people have also found adequate Douglas Fir in lumber yards. -- >Where does one get the longer version plans (without having to buy other not >needed plans)? http://www.pietenpol.com > >Is poplar wood a good replacement for fir? > The FAA says spruce, douglas fir, western hemlock. Use others if you do the research. Piets have been built from other woods. Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CAho878935(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Mike on NX40772 my antenna was mounted in the vertical fin using stainless steel whip in a plastic sheath. It had a plug I think it was called a banana type that attached it to the coax. If you removed the fin theyou could unhook the antenna. I also have this similar arrangement in my Duster Sailplane only using a dipole type antenna. Craig Aho ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GMalley(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for all "member this"
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Yeah, I'm still here. Terry and Mike C. gave accurate information. It was my local FSDO office which first told me about the availibility of small numbers and NX. But don't be surprised that some local FSDO types have trouble with the obscure reg, the FAA elite at Oshkosh were similarly confused: I was "grounded" during the '91 convention for not having the "experimental" sign. To prove my willingness to comply, I bought one, stuck it on with copious amounts of suntan lotion and went to the hearing. The vote was 4 to 1 supporting the loophole. The sign slid off and so did I. I've kept a copy of 45.22 with me ever since. Jim Malley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Advisory Circular 20-27D
Date: Aug 23, 1999
Hey Guys, I thought since we were on the subject of the FAA, I would pass along the attached advisory circular. If you have Microsoft Word (version 6.0 or newer) you should be able to download it and open it right up. I recommend that everyone print yourself a copy for reference. In most cases it will send you off in the right direction for at least the common questions that may come up. For those of you who are inexperienced with Advisory Circulars, they are FAA supplemental information which do not supersede FARs but are intended to provide guidance for an acceptable means of compliance to the regs. They are not the only acceptable means...but one that has already been blessed by the FAA. There is a lot of helpful information in this one for CERTIFICATION AND OPERATION OF AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT. If anyone has a specific need to locate a particular FAR, AC, TC, STC, AD, TCDS etc..., let me know and I will grab it off of the system at work and forward to you. We have the subscription with all of the latest updates. I hope this is useful to some of you. Terry (CDT) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 23, 1999
I got this off of the AVweb.com weekly e-NewsWire called AVflash. Thought it would be of some interest. It brought to mind something I saw in Grant McLaren's 1990 or 91 Piet calendar. One of the months had a great pic of downtown Manhattan (NY not KS) as viewed thru the struts of a Piet. Terry.................. EAA GETS FAA CLARIFICATION ON HOMEBUILT OVERFLIGHTS OF POPULATED AREAS EAA finally got a clarification from the FAA regarding limitations for homebuilt aircraft that fly over populated areas. The FAA said that amateur-built aircraft that received an airworthiness certificate before May 28, 1998, and have authorization to take off and land over densely populated areas continue to have authorization to fly over those areas for "en route operations." Amateur-built aircraft receiving airworthiness certificates after May 28, 1998, may fly over populated areas if the aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds. THAT LAST PART LEAVES A LOT FOR INTERPRETATION..HEHEHEE...tlb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Delete this unless you like humorous Jibberish
Date: Aug 23, 1999
SHORT FINAL... I am a flight instructor at a large flight school where my girlfriend is a student. She is preparing for her private checkride, so every once in a while I quiz her. She was having difficulty remembering when a pilot needs a complex endorsement, a high-performance endorsement, and a type rating. I asked her if I could be a copilot on a Boeing 747. She looked at me with a puzzled expression and said, "Let's see ... ummm ... how many horsepower does it have?" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Panzera
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote: > airworthiness certificates after May 28, 1998, may fly over populated > areas if the aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or > design features, and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal > range of speeds. Would it not be up to the builder to determine what the "normal range of speed is?" I can't think of any homebuilt a/c which is not controllable throughout it's normal speed range, and if mine were uncontrollable at a certain speed, I would not categorize that speed as "normal". Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Terry-populated areas
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Terry- The guy who signed off my Piet last year always gives me a rash of onions when I fly over the southern suburbs of Cleveland. He always points out the 'densely populated area' reg. THANKS to you I just forwarded his own employers new interpretation of the rule to him to digest !!! Hey, if Glasairs and Lancairs can shoot IFR approaches into International airports, why can't I fly my 74 mph Pietenpol into a Chicago area outlying uncontrolled airport.....like Plainfield, Illinois where I stopped for an excellent lunch and some 80 octane on the way home from Osh ?? PS- this is an old time airport which has housing developments close in from every side. You take off right over a Wal-Mart and Sears....but somehow they still operate ok. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)bbt.com>
Subject: Using 4220 mags on Continental
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Ken, I also would be very interested in how you were able to make use of the 4220 mags, having bought four. Thanks, -Bill > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:01:06 -0700 > From: Pat Panzera > Subject: Re: continental engines > To: Pietenpol Discussion > MIME-version: 1.0 > Comments: Originally To: "Pietenpol Discussion" > X-Listname: > > Ken Beanlands wrote: > > > > My custom rebuild will be $6500 USD but does not include carb, mags or > > altenator. The rebuilder was able to use the $15 4220 mags with a little > > modification. I also had an 0-200 MS carb in the shop that he re-jetted > > and used. The engine is now running and awaiting some minor tweaking. > > How about more detail on the mag conversion. I've been told that the > 15 degree lag is not enough, that the 0-200 needs something like 20-25 > > Pat > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Terry-populated areas
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Michael D Cuy wrote: > I fly my 74 mph Pietenpol into a Chicago area outlying > uncontrolled airport.....like Plainfield, Illinois where I stopped for an > excellent > lunch and some 80 octane on the way home from Osh ?? PS- this is an > old time airport which has housing developments close in from every side. > You take off right over a Wal-Mart and Sears....but somehow they still > operate ok. > > Mike C. Clow field (Plainfield) has been a burger stop on more than a couple of occasions--the old time diner is right out of the fifties with a wall of windows looking over the tie down area/ taxiway...I'll bet you had several noses against the glass as you taxied up to the diner.... JoeC Zion, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gene Tomblin <tombling(at)MercyShips.ORG>
Subject: Fly-In at Tyler Pounds field
Date: Aug 24, 1999
The Historic Aircraft Memorial Foundation is having a Fly-In Sept 4 at Pounds Field in Tyler Texas. Their idea of historic will be WWII war birds It would be nice to show them some real historic aircraft types There wilol be the usual pancake breakfast at $4.00 per plate at Crystal Jet which is the new name on the old Tyler aero hanger if you know Tyler Pounds if not it's on the NW side of the tower . It is where the general avation stuff is on the tower side of the field . Not to be confused with Tyler Jet which is on the same side of the field but is populated by the high $ exec-jet types. The day begins at 8:00 Am and goes until Noon . They will be doing a Young Egals ground school and giving free Young Eagles rides for the 8- 17 year olds I just though I'd post this in case a GN-1 or two would want to follow I 20 from Dallas to Tyler Gene Tomblin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
THIS is a rule that is WIDE OPEN to intretation, IE, what the heck do they mean? Doesn't get any wider than that, huh? Anybody have a "for instance"?? As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... Earl Myers -----Original Message----- From: Pat Panzera Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 9:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? >BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote: > >> airworthiness certificates after May 28, 1998, may fly over populated >> areas if the aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or >> design features, and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal >> range of speeds. > > >Would it not be up to the builder to determine what the "normal >range of speed is?" I can't think of any homebuilt a/c which is >not controllable throughout it's normal speed range, and if mine >were uncontrollable at a certain speed, I would not categorize >that speed as "normal". > >Pat > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Earl wrote: As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... >Earl Myers Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! I ain't flyin' no speed demon. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: RE: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
If I want to fly, I nearly have to fly over a town. I live in a valley with high mountains on either side. If I go south I can stay over sparsly populated areas, but If I go north it is either over water, (utah or Salt lake) or over city. Mostly I stay south for pleasure flying. I have had to fly over short stretches of salt lake and believe me it is very uncomfortable. I fly sailboat to sailboat. It sure was nice to take in some new scenery on the trip east! Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University > -----Original Message----- > Michael D Cuy > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:29 AM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? > > > Earl wrote: > As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and > water,nooooo we don't > >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old > planes........... > >Earl Myers > > Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. > Maybe 1/2 mile or > two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to > "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New > Holstien I > about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! > I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
I BET YOU WOULD HAVE FILLED YOUR BRITCHES WITH FOAM (it floats!) !!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 12:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? >Earl wrote: >As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't >>do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... >>Earl Myers > >Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or >two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to >"just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I >about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! >I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > >Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Steve; I saw the pictures of those mountains....got hypoxia just looking at them! I used to fly Maintenance Test Fights for a flight school/engine shop before the planes were returned to service. That started it then the oldies came later and just carried the same watchfull eye on that. Townes have too many News camera's. Earl -----Original Message----- From: steve(at)byu.edu Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 12:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Low and Slow ....over town? >If I want to fly, I nearly have to fly over a town. I live in a valley with >high mountains on either side. If I go south I can stay over sparsly >populated areas, but If I go north it is either over water, (utah or Salt >lake) or over city. Mostly I stay south for pleasure flying. I have had to >fly over short stretches of salt lake and believe me it is very >uncomfortable. I fly sailboat to sailboat. It sure was nice to take in >some new scenery on the trip east! > >Steve Eldredge >IT Services >Brigham Young University > > >> -----Original Message----- >> Michael D Cuy >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:29 AM >> To: Pietenpol Discussion >> Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? >> >> >> Earl wrote: >> As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and >> water,nooooo we don't >> >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old >> planes........... >> >Earl Myers >> >> Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. >> Maybe 1/2 mile or >> two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to >> "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New >> Holstien I >> about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! >> I ain't flyin' no speed demon. >> >> Mike C. >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
I THOUGHT THE GREAT SALT LAKE WAS ONLY AN INCH DEEP! -----Original Message----- From: steve(at)byu.edu Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 12:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Low and Slow ....over town? >If I want to fly, I nearly have to fly over a town. I live in a valley with >high mountains on either side. If I go south I can stay over sparsly >populated areas, but If I go north it is either over water, (utah or Salt >lake) or over city. Mostly I stay south for pleasure flying. I have had to >fly over short stretches of salt lake and believe me it is very >uncomfortable. I fly sailboat to sailboat. It sure was nice to take in >some new scenery on the trip east! > >Steve Eldredge >IT Services >Brigham Young University > > >> -----Original Message----- >> Michael D Cuy >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:29 AM >> To: Pietenpol Discussion >> Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? >> >> >> Earl wrote: >> As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and >> water,nooooo we don't >> >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old >> planes........... >> >Earl Myers >> >> Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. >> Maybe 1/2 mile or >> two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to >> "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New >> Holstien I >> about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! >> I ain't flyin' no speed demon. >> >> Mike C. >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Interesting, My friend just started flying lessons out of Long Beach Airport and the instructor always takes him out past the Break Water in the ocean to practice in the C150. I wonder what the Glide ratio is and if with a power out they could make land. Maybe that is the practice area defined by FAA. I'll have to ask him if he carries his Rubber Duckie with him. (Not Antenna) We used to Sailboat and always felt we were in free flight with the wind moving at a fast 8.5 knts in our Hans 38T Gordon steve(at)byu.edu wrote: > If I want to fly, I nearly have to fly over a town. I live in a valley with > high mountains on either side. If I go south I can stay over sparsly > populated areas, but If I go north it is either over water, (utah or Salt > lake) or over city. Mostly I stay south for pleasure flying. I have had to > fly over short stretches of salt lake and believe me it is very > uncomfortable. I fly sailboat to sailboat. It sure was nice to take in > some new scenery on the trip east! > > Steve Eldredge > IT Services > Brigham Young University > > > -----Original Message----- > > Michael D Cuy > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:29 AM > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? > > > > > > Earl wrote: > > As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and > > water,nooooo we don't > > >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old > > planes........... > > >Earl Myers > > > > Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. > > Maybe 1/2 mile or > > two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to > > "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New > > Holstien I > > about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! > > I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > > > > Mike C. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Michael D Cuy wrote: > Earl wrote: > As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't > >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... > >Earl Myers > > Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or > two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to > "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I > about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! > I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > > Mike C. for those who don't know the lake, it's 11 miles wide and 27 miles long.(one of my favorite fishing spots) JoeC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Would anyone care to estimate the glide ratio of a Piet? What is the glide angle for maximum distance? One half of 11 miles is 5.5 miles or about 29,000 feet. At 10:1 and 3,000 feet altitude on a calm day you could theoretically make it to either shore with a little to spare. Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 08/24/99 04:08:54 PM Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? Michael D Cuy wrote: > Earl wrote: > As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't > >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... > >Earl Myers > > Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or > two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to > "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I > about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! > I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > > Mike C. for those who don't know the lake, it's 11 miles wide and 27 miles long.(one of my favorite fishing spots) JoeC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
I for one have flown over Lake Winnebago twice and outside of gliding distance of the shore. I ended up in the lake just short of the shoreline. OK, I was on floats and I was heading for the seaplane base for OSH. One piece of trivia that I found most entertaining was the meaning of the indian word Winnebago. Due to the shallow nature of the lake (less than 20') it has a high concentration of algea that gives the lake a bit of a odour. It's naturally occuring (not polution) and has been around for centuries. Hence, when the Native Americans named the lake they called it Winnebago; "Smelly Water". Everytime a "Smelly Water" passes me on the hiway, I have a little chuckle. As for flying over open water, there is nothing like flying the 40 mile gap between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. The engine goes to automatic rough as soon as the floats pass the shoreline. I always try and get as high as possible (8500'-9500') but have had to do it at 1500' (2500' ceiling) and only 5 miles vis once. That wasn't fun. Same thing applies, fly from one vessel to the next. Fortunately, there is a lot of shipping both between NF and NS and out the St. Lawerance. You never really leave gliding distance of a vessel (except at 1500' ;-) Ken On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, fishin wrote: > > > Michael D Cuy wrote: > > > Earl wrote: > > As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't > > >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... > > >Earl Myers > > > > Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or > > two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to > > "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I > > about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! > > I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > > > > Mike C. > > for those who don't know the lake, it's 11 miles wide and 27 miles long.(one of > my favorite fishing spots) > JoeC > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: water, cities,mountains
Date: Aug 24, 1999
The classic water,cities flight was made by Tom Nolan in a 65 Piet. It was written up in the newsletter a few years ago Here in NY State we have the Hudson river which flows south from the Adirondack mountains to the Atlantic ocean. It flows past New York City at its southern end. The Statue of Liberty is located there. I am sure everyone is aware that the control zones of LaGuardia, Newark & JFK airports encompass that entire aera, There is a Hudson River corridor thru which one can fly no radio below 2000 ft. It is truly a magnificent flight. Below the Empire State building & World Trade center & over the Statue of Liberty.( I did it in a 150 ) Well, not only did Tom fly the corridor, but he turned east over the Atlantic Ocean & flew off shore under the JFK veil. VFR, no radio, in a Piet. Go beat that!. He took pictures of that flight from the cockpit. He had them at Brodhead one year. Unreal. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) PS: mountains later The classic water,cities flight was made by Tom Nolan in a 65 Piet. It was written up in the newsletter a few years ago Here in NY State we have the Hudson river which flows south from the Adirondack mountains to the Atlantic ocean. It flows past New York City at its southern end. The Statue of Liberty is located there. I am sure everyone is aware that the control zones of LaGuardia, Newark JFK airports encompass that entire aera, There is a Hudson River corridor thru which one can fly no radio below 2000 ft. It is truly a magnificent flight. Below the Empire State building World Trade center over the Statue of Liberty.( I did it in a 150 ) Well, not only did Tom fly the corridor, but he turned east over the Atlantic Ocean flew off shore under the JFK veil. VFR, no radio, in a Piet. Go beat that!. He took pictures of that flight from the cockpit. He had them at Brodhead one year. Unreal. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) PS: mountains later ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....glide over lake
Date: Aug 24, 1999
"little to spare" could be like "a little pregnant". John D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Talbert <wtalbert(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Terry-populated areas
Date: Aug 24, 1999
maybe the secret is in the meaning of the words "densely populated area" I would take that to be areas like Washington DC, up around A&M, and maybe the valley girl types out in california. food for thought ________________________________________________________________________________
From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: AC-20-27D
Date: Aug 24, 1999
There is a book: How to License a HOMEBUILT AIRCRAFT, by Paul Bergen Abbott. He makes AC-20-27D very readable and understandable. Even has some pictures and examples of the forms. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Terry-populated areas
Date: Aug 24, 1999
You got to be from Texas........... John D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu>
Subject: Re: water, cities,mountains
Date: Aug 24, 1999
Small correction, the cieling of the corridor is only 1100 feet. I used to do scenic rides in the Howard from Kobelt Airport, about 70 miles north of the City, down the corridor, around the Statue, and back to Kobelt. There is nothing like NYC from the air! Michael Brusilow wrote: > The classic water,cities flight was made by Tom Nolan in a 65 Piet. > It was written up in the newsletter a few years agoHere in NY State we > have the Hudson river which flows south from the Adirondack mountains > to the Atlantic ocean. It flows past New York City at its southern > end. The Statue of Liberty is located there.I am sure everyone is > aware that the control zones of LaGuardia, Newark & JFK airports > encompass that entire aera,There is a Hudson River corridor thru which > one can fly no radio below 2000 ft. It is truly a magnificent flight. > Below the Empire State building & World Trade center & over the Statue > of Liberty.( I did it in a 150 )Well, not only did Tom fly the > corridor, but he turned east over the Atlantic Ocean & flew off shore > under the JFK veil. VFR, no radio, in a Piet. Go beat that!.He took > pictures of that flight from the cockpit. He had them at Brodhead one > year. Unreal. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) PS: mountains > later -- David B.Schober, CPE Instructor, Aviation Maintenance Fairmont State College National Aerospace Education Center 1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503 (304) 842-8300 Small correction, the cieling of the corridor is only 1100 feet. I used to do scenic rides in the Howard from Kobelt Airport, about 70 miles north of the City, down the corridor, around the Statue, and back to Kobelt. There is nothing like NYC from the air! Michael Brusilow wrote: The classic water,cities flight was made by Tom Nolan in a 65 Piet. It was written up in the newsletter a few years agoHere in NY State we have the Hudson river which flows south from the Adirondack mountains to the Atlantic ocean. It flows past New York City at its southern end. The Statue of Liberty is located there.I am sure everyone is aware that the control zones of LaGuardia, Newark JFK airports encompass that entire aera,There is a Hudson River corridor thru which one can fly no radio below 2000 ft. It is truly a magnificent flight. Below the Empire State building World Trade center over the Statue of Liberty.( I did it in a 150 )Well, not only did Tom fly the corridor, but he turned east over the Atlantic Ocean flew off shore under the JFK veil. VFR, no radio, in a Piet. Go beat that!.He took pictures of that flight from the cockpit. He had them at Brodhead one year. Unreal.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )PS: mountains later -- David B.Schober, CPE Instructor, Aviation Maintenance Fairmont State College National Aerospace Education Center 1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503 (304) 842-8300 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Swanson
Subject: Re: Handheld Advice
Date: Aug 24, 1999
This arrangement was described in detail in the BPA newsletter #33, page 7. It looks like it is worth trying if you want the antenna hidden. I am planning to use this scheme. Al Swanson >Mike on NX40772 my antenna was mounted in the vertical fin using stainless >steel whip in a plastic sheath. It had a plug I think it was called a banana >type that attached it to the coax. If you removed the fin theyou could unhook >the antenna. I also have this similar arrangement in my Duster Sailplane only >using a dipole type antenna. > >Craig Aho > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: seibert(at)swbell.net
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 24, 1999
I think the glide ratio is probably 6 or 7 to one. My RV-6 is really only about 9 to 1. Its a little cleaner than a Piet but neither is a glider! I have a friend who flys an S1S Pitts. He carries a brick with him in case the engine quits. When the engine quits, he throws the brick out to see where he will be able to glide to:-). Regards, Bob Seibert mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com wrote: > Would anyone care to estimate the glide ratio of a Piet? What is the glide > angle for maximum distance? One half of 11 miles is 5.5 miles or about 29,000 > feet. At 10:1 and 3,000 feet altitude on a calm day you could theoretically > make it to either shore with a little to spare. > > Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 08/24/99 04:08:54 PM > Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET > > To: piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET > cc: > > Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? > > Michael D Cuy wrote: > > > Earl wrote: > > As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't > > >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... > > >Earl Myers > > > > Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or > > two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to > > "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I > > about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! > > I ain't flyin' no speed demon. > > > > Mike C. > > for those who don't know the lake, it's 11 miles wide and 27 miles long.(one of > my favorite fishing spots) > JoeC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: Over Water
Date: Aug 24, 1999
think. You go down in a hurry. If the engine quits don't make your base leg too far out. I you have to go in water a Navy guy told me to put a wing tip down first and spin around. If the gear goes in the water first you'll be upside down. I know I think about those things more than I used to. Oh, the Piet does glide pretty well without power. -----Original Message----- From: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com <mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com> Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? >Would anyone care to estimate the glide ratio of a Piet? What is the glide >angle for maximum distance? One half of 11 miles is 5.5 miles or about 29,000 >feet. At 10:1 and 3,000 feet altitude on a calm day you could theoretically >make it to either shore with a little to spare. > > >Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 08/24/99 04:08:54 PM >Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET > > >To: piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET >cc: > >Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town? > > >Michael D Cuy wrote: > >> Earl wrote: >> As a personal flying rule, I avoid built up areas (and water,nooooo we don't >> >do WATER!) and towns whenever possible when flying the old planes........... >> >Earl Myers >> >> Earl- A big Amen to that no over water rule for me too. Maybe 1/2 mile or >> two but that's enough for me. When the photo guys at EAA told me to >> "just fly 20 NM over Lake Winnebago" to the photo site at New Holstien I >> about filled my pants. No thank you, I'll go the scenic route ! >> I ain't flyin' no speed demon. >> >> Mike C. > >for those who don't know the lake, it's 11 miles wide and 27 miles long.(one of >my favorite fishing spots) >JoeC > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Piet cabine.
Date: Aug 24, 1999
I need to know the size of the Piet longerons . thickness and so fourth. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conrad, Bart D"
Subject: RE: Piet cabine.
Date: Aug 25, 1999
1"x1" Bart D Conrad Boeing Field Service DC-9/MD-80/DC-10 & 737 Heavy Mtc Phone: 713-640-5882/713-324-4192 Fax: 713-640-5891 Pager: 713-318-1625 > ---------- > From: vistin(at)juno.com[SMTP:vistin(at)juno.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 8:57 PM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Piet cabine. > > I need to know the size of the Piet longerons . thickness and so fourth. > > Steve > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Wooden struts
Date: Aug 25, 1999
There was an interesting article in this months Experimentor about wooden struts and thier design. The Piet was even featured with it's wooden landing gear legs. Quite an interesting article. Ken Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed0248(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Terry-populated areas
Date: Aug 25, 1999
It's nice to know that some things never change! I have fond memories of flying into Clow for 'burgers 'n such back in the early '70's, when I was based at Schaumburg/Roselle. Lots of ghosts came out when I saw the message...all of them good! Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Randall Reihing <rreihing(at)eng.utoledo.edu>
Subject: 0-200 crank
Date: Aug 25, 1999
hi Everyone, Does anyone have a factory new 0-200 crank, rods, pistons for-sale, or know where I can find one? Thanks, Randall Reihing Randall Reihing University of Toledo College of Engineering MIME Department 419-530-8244 FAX: 419-530-8206 E-Mail: rreihing(at)eng.utoledo.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBush96589(at)aol.com
Subject: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Hey everyone, I ordered the lumber for the fuselage a few weeks ago from WICKS should be ready to pick up soon. this is a first time project any suggestions on the best and easiest glue to use? thanks, Robert Bush ________________________________________________________________________________
From: awl942(at)webtv.net
Subject: mesages
Date: Aug 25, 1999
I am receiving 2 copies of each message on the Pietenpol discussion group, what should I change to only get only 1. Thanks, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
I used Aerolite on the ribs. T-88 on everything else. Aerolite takes on slight "set" almost immediately, this works great when working with small gussets. T-88 remains slippery until it sets. Thats OK on larger pieces that are easier to clamp but can be frustrating on small gussets. Greg Cardinal >>> 08/25 1:56 PM >>> Hey everyone, I ordered the lumber for the fuselage a few weeks ago from WICKS should be ready to pick up soon. this is a first time project any suggestions on the best and easiest glue to use? thanks, Robert Bush ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Robert, My Aircamper is my second project using T-88. First one is still flying , and nothing blew off. walt -----Original Message----- From: RBush96589(at)aol.com <RBush96589(at)aol.com> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 4:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: glue >Hey everyone, I ordered the lumber for the fuselage a few weeks ago from >WICKS should be ready to pick up soon. this is a first time project any >suggestions on the best and easiest glue to use? thanks, Robert Bush > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
>Robert, > My Aircamper is my second project using T-88. First one is still flying >, and nothing blew off. >walt Robert, Walt.......My Air Camper is my first project and I also used T-88 with nothing blowing off yet either. PS- white vinegar on a paper towel will remove this sticky stuff from your hands too.....and leave you smelling like a cucumber salad :)) Mike C. Robert, My Aircamper is my second project using T-88. First one is still flying , and nothing blew off. walt Robert, Walt.......My Air Camper is my first project and I also used T-88 with nothing blowing off yet either. PS- white vinegar on a paper towel will remove this sticky stuff from your hands too.....and leave you smelling like a cucumber salad :)) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
I will be starting on my piet soon.May I ask what did the wood cost you for the fuse? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
if you talk to 3 different people you'll get 3 different replys---me I used aerolite on the entire fuselage and found it very easy to use and quite satisfactory (the usaul tests and saving samples for future tests) I used baby food jars for mixing and found that any left over will last several weeks if jar is kept sealed..just be sure to apply catalist to half the joint. JoeC RBush96589(at)aol.com wrote: > Hey everyone, I ordered the lumber for the fuselage a few weeks ago from > WICKS should be ready to pick up soon. this is a first time project any > suggestions on the best and easiest glue to use? thanks, Robert Bush > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "donald r. brewer" <DonCarBrewer(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
robert bush,,, epoxy glue is my choice. i have used it on boats and plane= s for many years. T-88 is very good, as is Epolite, they are a 1-1 mixture= with good filling properties. highly recommended,,,,,,, don brewer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
from wicks--all the spruce and 1/8 mahogany ply===423.65 (shipping included) from Riteco --Australian hoop pine 1/4" , 1/8" & 1/16"==174.01(shipping included) JoeC Zion, Illinois Greg Estrada wrote: > I will be starting on my piet soon.May I ask what did the wood cost you for > the fuse? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Love that T-88. John W -----Original Message----- From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 3:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: glue I used Aerolite on the ribs. T-88 on everything else. Aerolite takes on slight "set" almost immediately, this works great when working with small gussets. T-88 remains slippery until it sets. Thats OK on larger pieces that are easier to clamp but can be frustrating on small gussets. Greg Cardinal >>> 08/25 1:56 PM >>> Hey everyone, I ordered the lumber for the fuselage a few weeks ago from WICKS should be ready to pick up soon. this is a first time project any suggestions on the best and easiest glue to use? thanks, Robert Bush ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ToySat(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Robt. Bush. Glue...West system ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBush96589(at)aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Thanks for the info on glue everyone sounds like t 88 is the thing to use Robert Bush ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: everyone can get AS&S catalog free
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft Spruce catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has discussed A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't beat their catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and brackets and blah,blah,blah. Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they only list numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND stuff like heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more "keeper" charts for ref. Their main site is: http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/ and to get right to page to order book: https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalog_order the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of "book" The good thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like the address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends thru my comp. walt Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft Spruce catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has discussed A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't beat their catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and brackets and blah,blah,blah. Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they only list numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND stuff like heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more keeper charts for ref. Their main site is: href"http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/">http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/<= /A> and to get right to page to order book: href"https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalo= g_order">https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catal= og_order the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of book The good thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like the address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends thru my comp. walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GREA738(at)aol.com
Subject: Trailing edge, wing
Date: Aug 25, 1999
1, Has anyone used, or heard of using, the 3/16" x 1 1/2" formed aluminum trailing edge material available from both Wick's and AS&S ??? 2. Ditto on the use of aluminum to wrap the leading edge ??? Thanx, DG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
How much is T-88 yall n where can I get it. Steve writes: > >Robert, > > My Aircamper is my second project using T-88. First one is > still flying > >, and nothing blew off. > >walt > > Robert, Walt.......My Air Camper is my first project and I also > used T-88 with nothing blowing off yet either. > PS- white vinegar on a paper towel will remove this sticky stuff > from > your hands too.....and leave you smelling like a cucumber salad :)) > Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: Glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Most folks in central KS. are using Aero-Poxy. Probably because it's sold by our local wood guru Gus Wiebe. Works fine. Here is a tip on mixing that worked for me. Get 2 Rubbermaid salad dressing squeeze bottles. they are clear. Put your parts A&B in there separate bottles , than you nerver have to mess with spoons again. Mix in medicine cups, like the one you see shrink rapped on top of your bottle of Pepto-Bismo. You can get these at hobby shops. R/Cars use them for mixing there 5 min. epoxy. They have 5 different measurements marked on the side. You must mark the one you want with a sharpie before you add your glue, because the markings disappear when glue is put in cup. Squeeze the thicker part in first, to your mark, then add thinner part next to its mark. Perfect measurement every time. You never get sticky fingers. Soap and water clean up before it sets. Mix and apply with toothpicks on small gussets, Popsickle sticks for bigger gussets. Mixing batches was so easy and fast I even used these small cups on my biggest job, putting on my plywood fus. sides. If you have a little glue left over in bottom of your cup, leave the tooth pick in and set aside for a few days. when cured,squeeze sides and bottom of cup to crack epoxy loose, use toothpick as a handle to lift old glueplug out and cup is reusable Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Group I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit the catalog before sending the thing out. So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their Marketing Director. Gordon walter evans wrote: > Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for > guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft > Spruce catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has > discussed A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't > beat their catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and > brackets and blah,blah,blah.Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they > only list numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND > stuff like heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more > "keeper" charts for ref.Their main site > is:http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/ and to get right to page to > order > book:https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalog_order > the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out > address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of "book" The > good thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like > the address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends > thru my comp.walt Group I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit the catalog before sending the thing out. So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their Marketing Director. Gordon walter evans wrote: Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft Spruce catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has discussed A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't beat their catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and brackets and blah,blah,blah.Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they only list numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND stuff like heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more "keeper" charts for ref.Their main site is:http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/ and to get right to page to order book:https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalog_order the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of "book" The good thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like the address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends thru my comp.walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Trailing edge, wing
Date: Aug 25, 1999
>1, Has anyone used, or heard of using, the 3/16" x 1 1/2" formed aluminum >trailing edge material available from both Wick's and AS&S ??? >2. Ditto on the use of aluminum to wrap the leading edge ??? >Thanx, >DG Sure have. I used both. Been there since 1988. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Trailing edge, wing
Date: Aug 25, 1999
On aluminum trailing edges....consider this. After the wing is assembled and aligned, turn the wing up on the trailing edge and pour them full of Epolite epoxy to add some rigidity and to give them a wood-like "density" effect. To keep the weight down...use plenty of microballoons mixed in with the epoxy. This is a little trick used by some of the antique airplane rebuilders and it really seems to work out well....Terry B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Trailing edge, wing
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Incidentally....I plan to use wood. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gutmeier(at)aol.com
Subject: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 25, 1999
In a message dated 8/25/99 7:22:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, arkiesair(at)surfree.com writes: << I was reading from two catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit the catalog before sending the thing out. >> VS. from wicks--all the spruce and 1/8 mahogany ply===423.65 (shipping included) from Riteco --Australian hoop pine 1/4" , 1/8" & 1/16"==174.01(shipping included) total 597.66 Hi gang, been a Pietenpol fan for about ten years now and I'm planning to start construction on one in soon so I'm really happy to have found you guys. Right now I'm just looking around at prices and suppliers. Can anyone tell me why there is a $332.33 price difference between Wicks and AS&S? Also I'm still going back and forth between the Sky Scout and the Air Camper. I have the 32 and 33 Flying and Glider manuals. At the end of article about the Sky Scout the PacMag engine is suggested as an alternative to the "T", now I know I can't get this motor but a half VW seems to have the same numbers, any feedback guys? If all of you think this is a bad idea then I'll go with the Model "A" Aircamper. Which brings me to my second question, anybody know where I can get a model "A" motor suitable for rebuild in the Maryland/Pa. area? Thanks, Ross Gutmeier ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Trailing edge, wing
Date: Aug 25, 1999
I was just going to say....wouldn't it be easier , cheaper, lighter to just get a 14 ft. piece of 1x2" clear white pine , and if ripped right on an angle, to get two trailing edges? Think thats what I'll do. walt -----Original Message----- From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trailing edge, wing >Incidentally....I plan to use wood. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Steve, Fyant ,( if you want) you can get it at Aircraft Spruce, or any other supplier. Get the qt. kit, which consists of two "ketchup squeeze bottles" that are handy to use . About $25.00 walt -----Original Message----- From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 6:45 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: glue >How much is T-88 yall n where can I get it. > >Steve > > writes: >> >Robert, >> > My Aircamper is my second project using T-88. First one is >> still flying >> >, and nothing blew off. >> >walt >> >> Robert, Walt.......My Air Camper is my first project and I also >> used T-88 with nothing blowing off yet either. >> PS- white vinegar on a paper towel will remove this sticky stuff >> from >> your hands too.....and leave you smelling like a cucumber salad :)) >> Mike C. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net>
Subject: PIET
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Another question..I plan on starting on my piet soon.What part of the plane is usually begun first?And hwo much is a good guess on all the wood for the airframe price wise.. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Ross, I flew a 1/2 VW on an ultralight. ran good, Then built a FFP404 and wanted one on that, Just not strong enough. Got me around the pattern,thats about all. then put on Rotax 447, like day and night. Rotax is rated at 41hp. They talk of the 1/2 VW as 35 hp but I dont think so. The 1/2 VW will fly alot of planes , but not a Piet. I sold my VW to a guy in NY ( I can send you a pic of it on his plane directly if you'd like) What I've heard is that even a 4 cyl. VW won't fly a Piet. walt -----Original Message----- From: Gutmeier(at)aol.com <Gutmeier(at)aol.com> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A" >In a message dated 8/25/99 7:22:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >arkiesair(at)surfree.com writes: > ><< I was reading from two > catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > the catalog before sending the thing out. >> > > >VS. > >from wicks--all the spruce and 1/8 mahogany ply===423.65 (shipping included) >from Riteco --Australian hoop pine 1/4" , 1/8" & 1/16"==174.01(shipping >included) total 597.66 > >Hi gang, been a Pietenpol fan for about ten years now and I'm planning to >start construction on one in soon so I'm really happy to have found you guys. >Right now I'm just looking around at prices and suppliers. Can anyone tell me >why there is a $332.33 price difference between Wicks and AS&S? > >Also I'm still going back and forth between the Sky Scout and the Air Camper. >I have the 32 and 33 Flying and Glider manuals. At the end of article about >the Sky Scout the PacMag engine is suggested as an alternative to the "T", >now I know I can't get this motor but a half VW seems to have the same >numbers, any feedback guys? > >If all of you think this is a bad idea then I'll go with the Model "A" >Aircamper. Which brings me to my second question, anybody know where I can >get a model "A" motor suitable for rebuild in the Maryland/Pa. area? > >Thanks, > >Ross Gutmeier > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: PIET
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Greg, My first project I did ribs and then wings. I guess most people do this. But you go through a long dry time of wondering what the plane will look like. ( too long between starting and sitting in it). So on the Aircamper I started the fuselage first, then all the little sub assys., with ribs in between. Now all ribs are done and thinking about the wing. Just incase anyone is put off from starting because of not a big enough shop.....this is my second project in a 10ft.x20 ft. basement. walt " building is not so much the destination, but more so the journey" -----Original Message----- From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIET >Another question..I plan on starting on my piet soon.What part of the plane >is usually begun first?And hwo much is a good guess on all the wood for the >airframe price wise.. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: PIET
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Is there a site one can find a good runout c-65 -85 ..How much Difference between the two? I went to OSH and caught the PIET fever..Got to fly one with a nice old fella..Flew just like the champs/cubs I use to fly but a slower landing speed the PIET have..Very honest ship she was. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: [Fwd: FW: Aircraft Spruce: Pietenpol Discussion]
Date: Aug 25, 1999
This is exactly what Jerry said about the prices. I had it a little wrong. Seems Wicks is a much better deal. Gordon Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:34:10 -0700 Subject: Pietenpol-List: FW: Aircraft Spruce: Pietenpol Discussion ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Aguilar" <jla@aircraft-spruce.com>
Dear Gordon, I viewed with some interest your comments posted to the pietenpol emai l group. The discrepancy between last years printed price and this ye ars catalog has nothing to do with as you put it "trying to cash in on the Aircampers popularity". The printed price last year was actually a mistake in that the price for the Pietenpol Aircramper spruce kit wa s mistakenly put in the price of the GN-1 Aircamper Spruce kit. The c urrent correct price for the GN-1 kit is $1289.00 and the current pric e for the Piet. Aircamper is $800.00. Sincerely Jerry Aguilar Aircraft Spruce ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Low and Slow ....over town?
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Glide ratio? Didn't know it had one. Mine is more like a fall ratio. I would guess maybe 2:1 on a good day. Depends on how hard you want to hit the ground when you get there. Ted B >Would anyone care to estimate the glide ratio of a Piet? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Here's another one...check into Tite-bond II. No mixing, available at hardware stores, inexpensive, strong, water-resistant (very). It's what I'm using. 'Course, I haven't flown mine yet.... Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Robert, Use T-88 epoxy. It's a 50-50 mix (easy to measure) and it has a slight amber color so that areas saturated with glue won't look white under the varnish. It is great to work with. You can get it from Wicks. Very satisfying. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Ross, The Model A has 200 cubic inches of displacement. A VW (4 cylinder) is about half of that and a Half VW would be about 1/4 the displacement of the Model A. 1/4 the displacement means 1/4 the power at a given RPM and with the tiny prop even less than 1/4 the thrust. Of course you would turn the little engine faster, but you wouldn't come any where close to being able to pull this draggy aircraft into the air. I don't think that anyone has successfully used a 4 cyl VW on a Peitenpol, much less, half of one. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Is titebond II approved for aircraft use??? Steve > Here's another one...check into Tite-bond II. No mixing, available > at > hardware stores, inexpensive, strong, water-resistant (very). It's > what I'm > using. 'Course, I haven't flown mine yet.... > > Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: PIET
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Added onto that question... How much should a rebuilt C65 be worth. I have a chance to buy one for $3500 and thought that seemed pretty reasonable for a completely rebuilt aircraft engine. But I'm not an expert by any means. Greg Yotz -----Original Message----- From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 7:44 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: PIET > Is there a site one can find a good runout c-65 -85 ..How much Difference >between the two? I went to OSH and caught the PIET fever..Got to fly one >with a nice old fella..Flew just like the champs/cubs I use to fly but a >slower landing speed the PIET have..Very honest ship she was. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I took it you meant to use the VW on the Scout? If so, I haven't heard of anyone doing that. I have a 1500cc VW on a VP-1 and it does ok. After looking at the Scout plans last night I would say you would be happer with the 1800-2100cc VWs on that plane. And then it wouldn't perform as good as the torquey 'T'. If your talking about the Aircamper then I would stick with the 'A' or an aircraft engine(C65). Just my two cents worth.(At todays prices, really only .875689 cents.....) Greg Yotz -----Original Message----- From: Gutmeier(at)aol.com <Gutmeier(at)aol.com> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 6:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A" >In a message dated 8/25/99 7:22:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >arkiesair(at)surfree.com writes: > ><< I was reading from two > catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > the catalog before sending the thing out. >> > > >VS. > >from wicks--all the spruce and 1/8 mahogany ply===423.65 (shipping included) >from Riteco --Australian hoop pine 1/4" , 1/8" & 1/16"==174.01(shipping >included) total 597.66 > >Hi gang, been a Pietenpol fan for about ten years now and I'm planning to >start construction on one in soon so I'm really happy to have found you guys. >Right now I'm just looking around at prices and suppliers. Can anyone tell me >why there is a $332.33 price difference between Wicks and AS&S? > >Also I'm still going back and forth between the Sky Scout and the Air Camper. >I have the 32 and 33 Flying and Glider manuals. At the end of article about >the Sky Scout the PacMag engine is suggested as an alternative to the "T", >now I know I can't get this motor but a half VW seems to have the same >numbers, any feedback guys? > >If all of you think this is a bad idea then I'll go with the Model "A" >Aircamper. Which brings me to my second question, anybody know where I can >get a model "A" motor suitable for rebuild in the Maryland/Pa. area? > >Thanks, > >Ross Gutmeier > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com
Subject: Re: PIET
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I was just about ready to start construction and I got an assignment to a customer site for a year. I have an apartment and I commute Monday and Friday. I started on the ribs because I can do them on my kitchen table. I think that I will probably get tail surfaces done while I'm here also. Mike Bell Columba,SC (RestonVa during the week) Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 08/25/99 08:40:01 PM Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: PIET Greg, My first project I did ribs and then wings. I guess most people do this. But you go through a long dry time of wondering what the plane will look like. ( too long between starting and sitting in it). So on the Aircamper I started the fuselage first, then all the little sub assys., with ribs in between. Now all ribs are done and thinking about the wing. Just incase anyone is put off from starting because of not a big enough shop.....this is my second project in a 10ft.x20 ft. basement. walt " building is not so much the destination, but more so the journey" -----Original Message----- From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIET >Another question..I plan on starting on my piet soon.What part of the plane >is usually begun first?And hwo much is a good guess on all the wood for the >airframe price wise.. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gutmeier(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Lauren, Mike, Greg, Walt, Thanks for all of your feedback. Looks like I'll be going for the Model "A" AIrcamper. Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 26, 1999
STICK WITH THE MODEL "A"..... -----Original Message----- From: Lauren Williams <LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 5:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A" Ross, The Model A has 200 cubic inches of displacement. A VW (4 cylinder) is about half of that and a Half VW would be about 1/4 the displacement of the Model A. 1/4 the displacement means 1/4 the power at a given RPM and with the tiny prop even less than 1/4 the thrust. Of course you would turn the little engine faster, but you wouldn't come any where close to being able to pull this draggy aircraft into the air. I don't think that anyone has successfully used a 4 cyl VW on a Peitenpol, much less, half of one. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joe Krzes <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: PIET
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I haven't purchased wood yet and I'm still in the planning stage, but I've read that if you have limited space, do the wings first cause they can be hung up, out of the way when you start the fuselage. I've also heard that if you build the tail first, you'll learn all the skills for the rest of the plane. Joe Spring, TX >From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net> >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: PIET >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:30:49 -0700 > >Another question..I plan on starting on my piet soon.What part of the plane >is usually begun first?And hwo much is a good guess on all the wood for the >airframe price wise.. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Trailing edge, wing
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>I was just going to say....wouldn't it be easier , cheaper, lighter to just >get a 14 ft. piece of 1x2" clear white pine , and if ripped right on an >angle, to get two trailing edges? Think thats what I'll do. >walt Walt- you got it, buddy. I went to the local DIY store and purchased plain old pine baseboard moulding and simply ripped the top 1" or so off and whala, you've got that nice triangular shape for the TE ready to go. MC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Clay Spurgeon <cspurgeon(at)baseballexp.com>
Subject: Engine choice, Tom Nolan
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Questions for the group: 1. Curious if anyone has experience with both Model A and Continental 65 performance and could compare and contrast, 2. If anyone has experience with Ron Kelley Model A engines - he's a Model A engine builder outside of Dallas and builds "updated" A's for reliability and horsepower (around 70HP). Talked with him once and he sounds very knowledgeable - has done a lot of research and dyno testing on carb/head/plug combos - would like to know if anyone is flying behind one? 2. Anyone have an e-mail address for Tom Nolan? Thanks, Clay Spurgeon San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: PIET
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Joe keep me posted, when you start John D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Engine choice, Tom Nolan
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>Questions for the group: > >1. Curious if anyone has experience with both Model A and Continental >65 performance and could compare and contrast, > Clay- I have tried both and let me just say that both are a total blast and you should have one of each. Now for the differences...... The Cont. Piets controls feel totally different- much more responsive due to the higher cruising speed. An average guess might say the Fords cruise about 55-65 and the Continentals about 65-75 mph. These are general numbers......unless you are an engine wizard like Lowell Frank or Wil Graff who can get 70 hp from a Model A. The Fords are very nostalgic and sound sweet...but be prepared to have the radiator on a hot summer day pour lots of hot air right in the face of your passenger....and the exhaust stacks are right in line with your nose so if you lean out the left side you get a nice dose of carbon monoxide. Then again on a winter flight in the North the seat of choice is passenger, Model A. On a hot day with a Ford you'll be restricted to carrying lighter passengers depending on your field length, obstructions , elevation, density altitude. The Continental will let you go with 2 adults on just about any day below 85 F or so. The visibility restriction of the radiator is, I think, over-rated. If you have a passenger in the front of a Cont. you still can't see squat ahead so no big difference there. When landing most any taildragger from the back seat you'll mostly be using peripheral vision anyway. Whatever you decide just try to build a light as possible. You can modify things here and there slightly, but there is no need to add weight anywhere. A heavy Piet will just dissapoint you in the long run. Mike C. Questions for the group: 1. Curious if anyone has experience with both Model A and Continental 65 performance and could compare and contrast, Clay- I have tried both and let me just say that both are a total blast and you should have one of each. Now for the differences...... The Cont. Piets controls feel totally different- much more responsive due to the higher cruising speed. An average guess might say the Fords cruise about 55-65 and the Continentals about 65-75 mph. These are general numbers......unless you are an engine wizard like Lowell Frank or Wil Graff who can get 70 hp from a Model A. The Fords are very nostalgic and sound sweet...but be prepared to have the radiator on a hot summer day pour lots of hot air right in the face of your passenger....and the exhaust stacks are right in line with your nose so if you lean out the left side you get a nice dose of carbon monoxide. Then again on a winter flight in the North the seat of choice is passenger, Model A. On a hot day with a Ford you'll be restricted to carrying lighter passengers depending on your field length, obstructions , elevation, density altitude. The Continental will let you go with 2 adults on just about any day below 85 F or so. The visibility restriction of the radiator is, I think, over-rated. If you have a passenger in the front of a Cont. you still can't see squat ahead so no big difference there. When landing most any taildragger from the back seat you'll mostly be using peripheral vision anyway. Whatever you decide just try to build a light as possible. You can modify things here and there slightly, but there is no need to add weight anywhere. A heavy Piet will just dissapoint you in the long run. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Thats the way I see it too. If your going to build a Legend, why not built it the way it was designed and have a new antique to fly, that is what I will do when I start building, just have too many projects right now. Gordon RW1 UL Piet Mohawk MK IV Gutmeier(at)aol.com wrote: > Lauren, Mike, Greg, Walt, > > Thanks for all of your feedback. Looks like I'll be going for the Model "A" > AIrcamper. > > Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Engine choice, Tom Nolan
Date: Aug 26, 1999
-----Original Message----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Clay Spurgeon <cspurgeon(at)baseballexp.com>
Subject: Engine choice, Tom Nolan
Questions for the group: 2. Anyone have an e-mail address for Tom Nolan? Thanks, Clay SpurgeonSan Antonio From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cost for Cont A-65
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>I have a chance to buy one for $3500 and thought that seemed pretty reasonable for a completely rebuilt aircraft engine. But I'm not an expert by any means. >Greg Yotz Greg I paid $700 for an A-65 from a Luscombe that had a prop strike. The crank was bent, but it came with a crank that was serviceable. I sent the cranks to Aircraft Specialties in Tulsa and the ground it to .020 under for $400.00. The bearings, seals and gasket set was another $400.00. I gave Divco $75.00 to rework the case for new thrust bearings. I bought a new camshaft from Fresno for $200.00 The engine came with old Eisemann mags that quit while I was flyinig. So, another $805.00 for new Slicks and a new harness from Mattituck. So, $3500.00 could be a good deal if the end result of a rebuilt engine includes all of this. Other wise your start charge may be $3500 and you'll still have to have work done. There are a lot of $2000.00 A-65's out there, but I would tear it down myself and rebuild it so I know what's inside. Remember it's YOUR BUTT up there. Good luck. Also check out Wingsonline.Com for parts. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A"
Date: Aug 26, 1999
You would probably be OK with Great Plains' new reduction unit for the VW. This should slow the prop down enough to be effective on the Piet. Check out <http://www.greatplainsas.com/welcome.html> for more info. Ken On Wed, 25 Aug 1999, walter evans wrote: > Ross, > I flew a 1/2 VW on an ultralight. ran good, > Then built a FFP404 and wanted one on that, Just not strong enough. Got me > around the pattern,thats about all. then put on Rotax 447, like day and > night. Rotax is rated at 41hp. They talk of the 1/2 VW as 35 hp but I dont > think so. The 1/2 VW will fly alot of planes , but not a Piet. I sold my > VW to a guy in NY ( I can send you a pic of it on his plane directly if > you'd like) > What I've heard is that even a 4 cyl. VW won't fly a Piet. > walt > -----Original Message----- > From: Gutmeier(at)aol.com <Gutmeier(at)aol.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:20 PM > Subject: Wicks vs. AS&S, half VW, model "A" > > > >In a message dated 8/25/99 7:22:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >arkiesair(at)surfree.com writes: > > > ><< I was reading from two > > catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > > GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > > the catalog before sending the thing out. >> > > > > > >VS. > > > >from wicks--all the spruce and 1/8 mahogany ply===423.65 (shipping > included) > >from Riteco --Australian hoop pine 1/4" , 1/8" & 1/16"==174.01(shipping > >included) total 597.66 > > > >Hi gang, been a Pietenpol fan for about ten years now and I'm planning to > >start construction on one in soon so I'm really happy to have found you > guys. > >Right now I'm just looking around at prices and suppliers. Can anyone tell > me > >why there is a $332.33 price difference between Wicks and AS&S? > > > >Also I'm still going back and forth between the Sky Scout and the Air > Camper. > >I have the 32 and 33 Flying and Glider manuals. At the end of article about > >the Sky Scout the PacMag engine is suggested as an alternative to the "T", > >now I know I can't get this motor but a half VW seems to have the same > >numbers, any feedback guys? > > > >If all of you think this is a bad idea then I'll go with the Model "A" > >Aircamper. Which brings me to my second question, anybody know where I can > >get a model "A" motor suitable for rebuild in the Maryland/Pa. area? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Ross Gutmeier > > > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: RE: mesages
Date: Aug 26, 1999
go to richards site. www.aircamper.org unsubscribe and then resubscribe. If the problem continues, email me directly. Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University > -----Original Message----- > awl942(at)webtv.net > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 2:31 PM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: mesages > > > I am receiving 2 copies of each message on the Pietenpol discussion > group, what should I change to only get only 1. > Thanks, > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: sitka grades
Date: Aug 26, 1999
my plans are on the table and ready to start. Any comments on using grade c and better sitka spruce for every thing with the exception of the spars? c and better is pretty clean and of course you would not use any piece with a swirl or knot. What are the pros and cons of the long fuse verses the short? Also has anybody used air powered staples to assemble the ribs etc? one more question, is baltic birch too heavy or not strong enough for the ply's? thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com>
Subject: Model A weight?
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Does anyone know the all up weight of the A engine. If not how about the weight of the engine alone? Marc Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: sitka grades
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I used an Arrow electric staple gun when I built my cedar stripper canoe. Staples were used to hold the 1/4"x1" cedar strips together while the glue cured. The stapler was about $30 CDN ($20 USD) and was certainly durable enough (3 boxes of staples had little effect on it). There were three problems with the electric stapler in that application: 1. Not enough power. I felt like Tim Taylor looking for a way to add MORE POWER (RRR RRR RRR). It worked OK with 1/2" staples but there wasnt enough power to staple the 1/4" strips into the oak stem using the 3/4" staples. Air powered will probably work better. Crank it up to 200 PSI and you'll probably get a good 1000 yds range! I could only get the staples to stick into the wall at less than 10' with my wimpy gun ;-) This brings up another point. Wear eye protection (and maybe a cup just in case ;-). 2. It was hard to accurately figure out where the staples would end up. I finally resorted to marking guide lines on the sides and front of teh stapler to help with placing the staples where I wanted them. 3. Glue! Since I was edge gluing the planks together in a cove and bead seam, the glue would run out over the sides as I stapled. It would get all over the bottom of the stapler. Fortunately, the glue was water soluable and easily washed off. T-88 may not be so forgiving. Granted, you probably wont have near the amount of excess glue on a wing rib. Ken On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, del magsam wrote: > my plans are on the table and ready to start. Any > comments on using grade c and better sitka spruce for > every thing with the exception of the spars? c and > better is pretty clean and of course you would not > use any piece with a swirl or knot. What are the pros > and cons of the long fuse verses the short? Also has > anybody used air powered staples to assemble the ribs > etc? one more question, is baltic birch too heavy or > not strong enough for the ply's? thanks in advance. > > > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: speaking of the tail surfaces
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Someone brought up the tail surfaces, and that brought back some thoughts. After I finished my horizontal stab. I looked at all of the pics around and realized that everyones was a little different. I ran into confusion with trying to join three different width wood, on a centerline, plus bevel one thickness to the other so the joints could be gusseted. then when the "main beam" that runs a few inches behind the horz. stab. leading edge, joins the sides ( that are routed out) , you run into yet another difference of thickness'. This had to be gusseted also. I don't know if you can follow my ramblings or not..... Even after I finished them , and they came out ok, I went back to see if I had missed something very basic. Did any of you have this problem? This is the part of the plane that I mostly had to wing it ( sorry) walt Someone brought up the tail surfaces, and that brought back some thoughts. After I finished my horizontal stab. I looked at all of the pics around and realized that everyones was a little different. I ran into confusion with trying to join three different width wood, on a centerline, plus bevel one thickness to the other so the joints could be gusseted. then when the main beam that runs a few inches behind the horz. stab. leading edge, joins the sides ( that are routed out) , you run into yet another difference of thickness'. This had to be gusseted also. I don't know if you can follow my ramblings or not..... Even after I finished them , and they came out ok, I went back to see if I had missed something very basic. Did any of you have this problem? This is the part of the plane that I mostly had to wing it ( sorry) walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Piet fans, Tite-bond II was recommended by our chapter designee. I'll have to check into approvals. Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Wooden struts
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Ken, For those of us who don't subscribe to "Experimenter, could you summarize the major points of the article on wooden struts? Thanx, much. Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conrad, Bart D"
Subject: RE: speaking of the tail surfaces
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Yes, I ran into that too. I ended up stacking two gussetts on top of each other to compensate for the differences in the thicknesses. I think I'll write a book some day on interpreting the Piet drawings. It would probably be a best seller. Bart D Conrad Boeing Field Service DC-9/MD-80/DC-10 & 737 Heavy Mtc Phone: 713-640-5882/713-324-4192 Fax: 713-640-5891 Pager: 713-318-1625 > ---------- > From: walter evans[SMTP:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 12:41 PM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: speaking of the tail surfaces > > Someone brought up the tail surfaces, and that brought back some thoughts.>> After I finished my horizontal stab. I looked at all of the pics around and realized that everyones was a little different. >> I ran into confusion with trying to join three different width wood, on a centerline, plus bevel one thickness to the other so the joints could be gusseted.>> then when the "main beam" that runs a few inches behind the horz. stab. leading edge, joins the sides ( that are routed out) , you run into yet another difference of thickness'.> =A0> This had to be gusseted also. > I don't know if you can follow my ramblings or not..... > Even after I finished them , and they came out ok, I went back to see if I had missed something very basic. > Did any of you have this problem? >> This is the part of the plane that I mostly had to wing it ( sorry) > walt >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Model A weight?
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>Does anyone know the all up weight of the A engine. If not how about the >weight of the engine alone? > >Marc Davis plus or minus 235 lbs. ( does not include radiator & water ) Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Todd Chisum <toddc12(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
This discussion on glues is interesting, so I'll throw in my limited experience. I am currently building wood wings for a Wag-Aero Cuby, my first project. I started using T-88 because I read good things about it. Several people in my EAA chapter convinced me to use resorcinol instead, one of which is an FAA DAR who will be inspecting my plane when the time comes. He admitted though, he is personally more familiar with resorcinol than epoxy. He expressed concern over the longevity of epoxy when it is heated, say like in a dark colored plane setting in the sun. As many of you have said though, you have used it for years and it is still holding up. I found T-88 easy to use, but resorcinol has a longer pot life so I can mix up a larger batch while building ribs. Resorcinol is easy to use too, but it is a dark purple/brown color. Makes less than perfect glue globs really show up. Resorcinol can be purchased at many larger lumber yards too. I think either one is as easy to use as the other and both would perform equally well. Just depends on your preference and what your DAR says about it. Last year, I wrote Franklin Adhesives about using Titebond II in airplane construction. They quickly and very nicely responded and said they do not recommend Titebond II for aircraft use. Personally, I think is is a good glue and holds up extremely well even when unprotected in the weather (like my bird feeder-three years in the weather, glued with Titebond II). I would think it would be great for an experimental airplane, but have no personal experience using it for this application and would like to hear more about its use and approvals. I'll locate that letter in case any of you are interested in the "official" response from the manufacturer of Titebond II. Has anyone tried some of the "instant" CA adhesives for airplane building? Todd Chisum Tulsa, Oklahoma Wag Aero Super Sport project (there's a Subaru powered Piet in my future) >Tite-bond II was recommended by our chapter designee. I'll have to check >into approvals. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Don... Re: Tite Bond...if you haven't already done so, please do some testing to satisfy yourself that it is really waterproof ( or highly water resistant) and that your test panels will always pull wood when you break them apart. I may have been living in a shell, but in over 50 years of building I have not heard of Tite Bond being used in aircraft. That sure doesn't mean that it can't be or isn't an acceptable substitiute for the several tried and true glues. Just don't take a chance until you have proven to yourself that it is at least equal to those. If you're new to building don't hesitate to get that old 'second opinion' Good luck Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MACKORELL(at)aol.com
Subject: Cowel supports
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Can anyone tell me what the width of the cowel supports are? I looks as though they are 1.75" but I'm not sure. Also are the control panels and cowel supports supposed to overhang the fuselage sides slightly? Jacob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>Group > >I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on >this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or >as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be >raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. > >He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year >because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the >GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for >the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something >like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two >catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the >GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit >the catalog before sending the thing out. > >So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot >because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. >Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. > >For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their >Marketing Director. > >Gordon > I know Mr Jerry Aguilar for several years, they used to call him (at the phone or desk) when a spanish speaking costumer called, I met him personally 3 years ago the first time at S&F. He is a great help (also for english speaking costumers). Good and hard working get to high positions, Is good to know that he is the Marketing Director. A saw him at S&F talking to some brazilians (in portugese - english - spanish) at the same time until he got the clear idea of what they needed!! Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>Here's another one...check into Tite-bond II. No mixing, available at >hardware stores, inexpensive, strong, water-resistant (very). It's what I'm >using. 'Course, I haven't flown mine yet.... > >Don Cooley > > Great glue, I have some pieces outside (sun & rain) for 4 1/2 years and still glued... I use it in my props. Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
>Is titebond II approved for aircraft use??? > >Steve > No but your plane is EXPERIMENTAL, remember? Some good glues (and materials) are not certified but used extensively in aviation, some are rare as the TPG (Taylor Paper Glass) remember the "paper airplane". I think the only certfied glue in USA is the Resorcinol, but I can be wrong. Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MACKORELL(at)aol.com
Subject: Fuel tank
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Has anyone installed a fuselage tank instead of the wing tanks? I'm planning to use a Continental engine and I've read that you don't need the forward tray if your going this route. Are there plans for building a fuselage tank or is it an off-the-shelf item? How should it be installed inside the fuselage? I've also read that you want to make the engine mount brackets slightly longer to account for a fire cloth and sheet metal face, but how much longer should it be? Lastly, can anyone give me some more info. on the type of fire cloth to use and the gauge of the sheet metal face? Thank you Jacob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
(snip) >Last year, I wrote Franklin Adhesives about using Titebond II in airplane >construction. They quickly and very nicely responded and said they do not >recommend Titebond II for aircraft use. Personally, I think is is a good >glue and holds up extremely well even when unprotected in the weather (like >my bird feeder-three years in the weather, glued with Titebond II). I would >think it would be great for an experimental airplane, but have no personal >experience using it for this application and would like to hear more about >its use and approvals. I'll locate that letter in case any of you are >interested in the "official" response from the manufacturer of Titebond II. All manufacturers of something that YOU INTEND TO USE in aviation, will run away from you as a mad dog! They dont want to get sued. Call all the "timing belts" manufacturers that are used in reductions units and they will not sell it to you if you say that is for "aircraft use". Use the frase "is for an airboat" and they will show you the catalog. If you want certified glue, use Resorcinol. but be very carefull with the bonding surfaces. (been there, done that) We built a VP-1 with Resorcinol, I prefer Tite-Bond II hands off. Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Replicraft(at)aol.com
Subject: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Robert- All our Piet kits and any wood assembly we do, uses the Weldwood Plastic Resin glue. I have tried others, but I was most comfortable with the Weldwood. Steve Replicraft Aviation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ToySat(at)aol.com
Subject: wire wheels
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Can anyone tell me what to use for wire wheels and where to get them? Time to raise the fuse. Thanks. Ryder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free
Date: Aug 26, 1999
We have been exchanging some nice emails in the past couple days. He is taking my advice and going to get on the list. I told him I could not be relaying messages as it would be much better for him to speak for ACS. I will bounce all companys together for my supplies. If I can get good stuff at a fair price from ACS I will drive over and pick it up, I like to keep my business close to home. But I will not pay a higher price just because they are close. Gordon Gary Gower wrote: > >Group > > > >I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on > >this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or > >as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be > >raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. > > > >He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year > >because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the > >GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for > >the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something > >like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two > >catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > >GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > >the catalog before sending the thing out. > > > >So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot > >because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. > >Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. > > > >For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their > >Marketing Director. > > > >Gordon > > > I know Mr Jerry Aguilar for several years, they used to call him (at the > phone or desk) when a spanish speaking costumer called, I met him personally > 3 years ago the first time at S&F. He is a great help (also for english > speaking costumers). Good and hard working get to high positions, Is good > to know that he is the Marketing Director. > > A saw him at S&F talking to some brazilians (in portugese - english - > spanish) at the same time until he got the clear idea of what they needed!! > > Saludos > > Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com>
Subject: Re: RE:engines
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Take a look at the DawnPatrol website to see a Newport 12 with just such a setup. It looks like a good idea to me but perhaps you could get the real poop from a builder who has done it. John W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com>
Subject: Re: wire wheels
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Ryder, The LEAF catalog shows wire wheels that might be what you need. John W -----Original Message----- From: ToySat(at)aol.com <ToySat(at)aol.com> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wire wheels >Can anyone tell me what to use for wire wheels and where to get them? Time >to raise the fuse. Thanks. Ryder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert hensarling <rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
-----Original Message----- From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: glue Gary, I think you're correct. We checked to see if T-88 was certified for use in a PT-19 project I'm helping with, and it wasn't. I built a Team Airbike wing with the T-88, it's great stuff!! Robert Hensarling http://www.mesquite-furniture.com rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com Uvalde, Texas >>Is titebond II approved for aircraft use??? >> >>Steve >> > >No but your plane is EXPERIMENTAL, remember? > >Some good glues (and materials) are not certified but used extensively in >aviation, >some are rare as the TPG (Taylor Paper Glass) remember the "paper airplane". > >I think the only certfied glue in USA is the Resorcinol, but I can be wrong. > >Saludos > >Gary Gower > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net>
Subject: G Load
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Out of the blue here I was wondering what the Piet has been load test at for G-loads..And if anyone would know ..Are there Piets based in brodhead? I live 30 miles west.I would like to meet some Piet pilots there if any based.1 more question.Does anybody know of a way to borrow a wing rib jig? Thnks .Greg Estrada..On the seventh day God had Bernard design the Pietenpol... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TJTREV(at)webtv.net (Theodore Trevorrow)
Subject: Re: G Load
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Ted Davis is based in Brodhead. Piet pilot + CFI . Lowell Frank is in Palmyra. Two of the best Piet drivers around. For engine and airframe ,You won't find better than these guys. Ted.T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Estrada <jetflyer(at)mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: G Load
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I wonder If I can find these fellas hangin' around the airport,,Sure would love to go flying in a Piet again.. Ted Davis is based in Brodhead. Piet pilot + CFI . Lowell Frank is in > Palmyra. Two of the best Piet drivers around. For engine and airframe > ,You won't find better than these guys. > Ted.T > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: sitka grades
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I tried using both electric and hand staplers for gussets on the ribs. I never got past the test stage. The staplers where just too brutal an approach. not accurate in positioning and unless round wire staples are used, too destructive of the spruce cap strip. I used brass coated aircraft nails, T-88 Epoxy, and cut the gussets to patterns for each position on the rib. To set the nails, I pre- pricked the outer nail locations with an awl, tapped the nails in enough to mark the rib material, lifted the gussets off and glued. Then I put the gusset back in place with the nails in their former indentations and tapped them home. I then pricked the positions of the rest of the nails on the gusset and set them one at a time. I put furniture oil on the rib jig, as a parting agent, weeks before using it and left the rib in the jig until the glue set over night. So, when I went out in the garage to do a rib, I'd plug in the electric teapot to steam the forward end of another cap strip. Then I would take the set rib out of the jig and hang it up on the rack on the wall, taking great satisfaction in the growing evidence of Airplane! Then I would take the dry upper cap out of the pre-bending jig and insert it in the rib jig. The lower capstrip snapped into place and I would then cut the vertical and angled struts to fit in each space. I had precut gussets in stacks along the back of the workbench and could ready them with their guiding nails, using the awl to prick the plywood, fairly quickly. Once all of the gussets where located by their 'guide' nails, I would lift them off one at a time, glue and then secure them, as previously mentioned. Somewhere along the way, I would turn off the teapot and put the limber cap strip into the pre-bending jig. The process of figuring out how, and in what order, to do the work has been one of the greatest satisfactions of the building process. I did the ribs first and then the tail surfaces. I bought the wood as I needed it for each individual group of parts. I put off building an airplane for a lot of years because I thought that my craftsmanship wasn't up to the standards that I would want in an airplane. I found that that concern took care of itself when I started to build. I find Aircraft Quality spruce and plywood to be inspiring materials to work. Part of this inspiration to do fine work comes from the way the woods feel under the blade of an edged tool, like a plane, hard back saw or chisel. Part of it is the wonderful appearance of the finished parts. I also include the monetary value of the material as a prod toward clear thinking and craftsmanship. Given the choice, I would spend a very great part of my time building airplane. Unfortunately, life intrudes now and then with other demands. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I consider Resorcinol to be something of a pain in the neck. It is aircraft certified but it requires high clamping pressure and is sensitive to temperature. It has no gap filling capabilities and stains everything purple. I used it for a little while years ago but gave it up quickly. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Benton PIET Fly-in
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Hey...for those of you thinking about attending the 1st annual Piet fly-in at Benton KS on Sept 11, I have some news. Tonight I phoned Kevin Helf in Owasso Oklahoma (his 65 Cont. Piet was pictured on p.38 of the Sept 99 Kitplanes) to see if he had heard about the fly-in. He relayed that he had heard about it and that there might be as many as 5 Piets make it from the Tulsa area. They are hoping the weather will cooperate.....Terry B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Weldwood Plastic Resin glue is great stuff to work with. I have built a lot of boats using it. Last winter I got to restore a boat that I built 30 years ago. This boat is built of douglas fir plywood with mahogany and douglas fir framing it was fastened with bronze annular ring boat nails. I have had to redo every glue joint in the boat. The Plastic Resin glue had totally failed. every bit of it had crystalized and separated from the wood. Granted, this boat had been out of doors it's whole life, most of it afloat in salt water. In fact, when I pulled it into the hanger last fall, I realized that that was the first time that it had EVER been under a roof, so it has had absolutely brutal treatment. I guess that it depends on what kind of protection you can give it and how long you want it to last. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: wire wheels
Date: Aug 26, 1999
Ryder, find copies of Kitplanes for March 1990 and July 1992 and you should have the wire wheel question covereed. The Buckeye Peit. Assn. news letters have also had very good info on the subject. Get all of these that you can afford. Lauren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry)
Subject: Re: PIET 1" thick
Date: Aug 26, 1999
-----Original Message----- From: Joe Krzes <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: PIET >I haven't purchased wood yet and I'm still in the planning stage, but I've >read that if you have limited space, do the wings first cause they can be >hung up, out of the way when you start the fuselage. I've also heard that >if you build the tail first, you'll learn all the skills for the rest of the >plane. Joe, you can build the ribs, fuselage sides and the tail group and it all stores nicely as it is only one inch thick until you slip the ribs on the spars or put cross braces in the fuselage. All my spruce came from Jean Peters of Calgary. Excellent quality and he understands wood aircraft and Pietenpols. Someone else may have his address. John Mc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: sitka grades
Date: Aug 26, 1999
I won't comment on the sitka spruce, except to say, look up the specs and go from there. And...a few years ago in the Boeing air museum they had on display an old aircraft spar. The spar had a graIN drop of about 3 inches in about 6 inches distance. About baltic birch , I used it for gussets, and found that the glassey surface would not give a solid glue joint. I solved this by giving the surface to be glued a good roughing so as to allow some tooth for the glueing surface. >From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: sitka grades >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:40:30 -0600 (MDT) > >I used an Arrow electric staple gun when I built my cedar stripper canoe. >Staples were used to hold the 1/4"x1" cedar strips together while the glue >cured. The stapler was about $30 CDN ($20 USD) and was certainly >durable enough (3 boxes of staples had little effect on it). There were >three problems with the electric stapler in that application: > >1. Not enough power. I felt like Tim Taylor looking for a way to add MORE >POWER (RRR RRR RRR). It worked OK with 1/2" staples but there wasnt enough >power to staple the 1/4" strips into the oak stem using the 3/4" staples. >Air powered will probably work better. Crank it up to 200 PSI and you'll >probably get a good 1000 yds range! I could only get the staples to stick >into the wall at less than 10' with my wimpy gun ;-) This brings up >another point. Wear eye protection (and maybe a cup just in case ;-). > >2. It was hard to accurately figure out where the staples would end up. I >finally resorted to marking guide lines on the sides and front of teh >stapler to help with placing the staples where I wanted them. > >3. Glue! Since I was edge gluing the planks together in a cove and bead >seam, the glue would run out over the sides as I stapled. It would get all >over the bottom of the stapler. Fortunately, the glue was water soluable >and easily washed off. T-88 may not be so forgiving. Granted, you probably >wont have near the amount of excess glue on a wing rib. > >Ken > >On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, del magsam wrote: > > > my plans are on the table and ready to start. Any > > comments on using grade c and better sitka spruce for > > every thing with the exception of the spars? c and > > better is pretty clean and of course you would not > > use any piece with a swirl or knot. What are the pros > > and cons of the long fuse verses the short? Also has > > anybody used air powered staples to assemble the ribs > > etc? one more question, is baltic birch too heavy or > > not strong enough for the ply's? thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) >Calgary, Alberta, Canada >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net>
Subject: CA glues
Date: Aug 27, 1999
I've been watching the conversations here for a while as I have been considering a Piet myself. Todd Chisum's comment about CA (cyanoacrylate) superglues caught my eye and needs a reply. I've been using CA glues to build model airplanes for 14 years. They work great on balsa wood and plastics but are sometimes a little iffy on bass wood or the spruce I uses in my models. I suspect that the same would be true on the sitka spruce in full scale aircraft. I have noticed that it doesn't always "kickoff" or catalyze consistently. Sometimes these instant glues don't seem to set up well. The articles that I have read in the RC magazines seem to indicate that this has to do with the alkalinity of the wood and the humidity. There are a lot of handy varieties of CA glues (various viscosities ect) but I would stick with the glues such as T-88 or others. CA glues also have very very noxious fumes. If you were going to use enough to build an airplane you would need a respirator.I have read of moderlers developing severe allergies to CA's at least as severe as those that some people have to the resins used in fiberglass aircraft. I seem to remember that Rutan used some CA's on his round-the-world plane but that was a composite aircraft. A little long winded for my first message here but I hope it is helpful Matt Kirk I've been watching the conversations here for a while as I have been considering a Piet myself. Todd Chisum's comment about CA (cyanoacrylate) superglues caught my eye and needs a reply. I've been using CA glues to build model airplanes for 14 years. They work great on balsa wood and plastics but are sometimes a little iffy on bass wood or the spruce I uses in my models. I suspect that the same would be true on the sitka spruce in full scale aircraft. I have noticed that it doesn't always kickoff or catalyze consistently. Sometimes these instant glues don't seem to set up well. The articles that I have read in the RC magazines seem to indicate that this has to do with the alkalinity of the wood and the humidity. There are a lot of handy varieties of CA glues (various viscosities ect) but I would stick with the glues such as T-88 or others. CA glues also have very very noxious fumes. If you were going to use enough to build an airplane you would need a respirator.I have read of moderlers developing severe allergies to CA's at least as severe as those that some people have to the resins used in fiberglass aircraft. I seem to remember that Rutan used some CA's on his round-the-world plane but that was a composite aircraft. A little long winded for my first message here but I hope it is helpful Matt Kirk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Steve wrote: I am interested in using this glue on my project. How bout more feedback on it! Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Soob variations.
Date: Aug 27, 1999
What different ways are yall using the soob on your Piet/Gn. Any direct drives?? What redrive ratios and so fourth. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: RE: Fuel tank
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Interesting. ON the tailwind list they are trying to go from the fuse to the wing with their fuel. Just a little irony. Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Does anyone have a building materials (wood) parts list for the fuselage on the Aircamper? Sure would save me a lot of time calculating! Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>Steve wrote: >I am interested in using this glue on my project. How bout more feedback >on it! >Steve A local guy just built a set of laminated spruce landing gear legs for his Fly Baby and he used Titebond II, testing samples in the vise, soaked in water for two weeks, with PERFECT results. I would not hesitate to use this. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joe Krzes <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Glenn, If you get one, post it. It may be a good idea to post it to the Aircamper website. Do you have a list for the wings? Joe > >Does anyone have a building materials (wood) parts list for the fuselage on >the Aircamper? Sure would save me a lot of time calculating! > >Thanks, Glenn > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
get a quote from wicks aircraft supply they will itemize it. they have a parts list. ---Burroughs wrote: > > Does anyone have a building materials (wood) parts list for the fuselage on > the Aircamper? Sure would save me a lot of time calculating! > > Thanks, Glenn > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>get a quote from wicks aircraft supply they will >itemize it. they have a parts list. > Here is the response that I received from Wicks: Thank you for your interest in the Pietenpol Aircamper. However, at this time the designer/ plan owner Don Pietenpol does not have a material listing showing the individual parts needed to build the Aircamper. I will keep your name and address to forward any information that becomes available. Kit Plans magazine "sort of" mis-printed information. Yes, we do sell everything needed to complete the plane - minus engine and avionics, although we're not certain what the materials are. Still hoping for a list..... Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: Cost for Cont A-65
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Thanks. The engine is suppose to be completely overhauled by an A&I. I'm looking at the paperwork this weekend. It also has a prop that should be suitable for use with a Piet. Greg Yotz -----Original Message----- From: Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 10:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cost for Cont A-65 >>I have a chance to buy one for $3500 and thought that seemed pretty >reasonable for a completely rebuilt aircraft engine. But I'm not an expert >by any means. >>Greg Yotz >Greg I paid $700 for an A-65 from a Luscombe that had a prop strike. The >crank was bent, but it came with a crank that was serviceable. I sent the >cranks to Aircraft Specialties in Tulsa and the ground it to .020 under for >$400.00. The bearings, seals and gasket set was another $400.00. I gave >Divco $75.00 to rework the case for new thrust bearings. I bought a new >camshaft from Fresno for $200.00 The engine came with old Eisemann mags that >quit while I was flyinig. So, another $805.00 for new Slicks and a new >harness from Mattituck. So, $3500.00 could be a good deal if the end >result of a rebuilt engine includes all of this. Other wise your start >charge may be $3500 and you'll still have to have work done. There are a >lot of $2000.00 A-65's out there, but I would tear it down myself and >rebuild it so I know what's inside. Remember it's YOUR BUTT up there. Good >luck. Also check out Wingsonline.Com for parts. >Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com >Tim Cunningham >Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
That is what Jerry was telling me when I told him someone on this list had said they got a list from Wicks and the prices was really low. Jerry contacted Wicks to check and they told him same thing (No List) so I wonder just what list the person on this list was referring too in making the statement that Wicks was so much cheaper than ACS. Don't remember your name but please post it again with the list you are referring too so we all can compare the two companys prices. Gordon Burroughs wrote: > >get a quote from wicks aircraft supply they will > >itemize it. they have a parts list. > > > > Here is the response that I received from Wicks: > > Thank you for your interest in the Pietenpol Aircamper. However, at this > time the designer/ plan owner Don Pietenpol does not have a material listing > showing the individual parts needed to build the Aircamper. I will keep > your name and address to forward any information that becomes available. > > Kit Plans magazine "sort of" mis-printed information. Yes, we do sell > everything needed to complete the plane - minus engine and avionics, > although we're not certain what the materials are. > > Still hoping for a list..... > > Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
You would think after 70 years their would be a list out someplace. Bet Replicraft has a list, an western aircraft has a list but they use it only to sell kits and material package. Good idea to get one and post it to web site. Gordon Burroughs wrote: > Does anyone have a building materials (wood) parts list for the fuselage on > the Aircamper? Sure would save me a lot of time calculating! > > Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conrad, Bart D"
Subject: RE: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
I am near completion of fuselage. Have built wing ribs and tail feathers. I would be willing to fax a copy of my orders to anyone who wants to put together a list. Maybe compare it to other Piet builders parts list. I seemed to have not that much wood left over so I guess my list is semi accurate. I am often guilty of not ordering a little extra for screw-ups. Bart > ---------- > From: Gordon Brimhall[SMTP:arkiesair(at)surfree.com] > Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 8:00 AM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage? > > You would think after 70 years their would be a list out someplace. > > Bet Replicraft has a list, an western aircraft has a list but they use it only > to sell kits and material package. > > Good idea to get one and post it to web site. > > Gordon > > > Burroughs wrote: > > > Does anyone have a building materials (wood) parts list for the fuselage on > > the Aircamper? Sure would save me a lot of time calculating! > > > > Thanks, Glenn > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 27, 1999
I would put it together for the list but don't have a fax that works anymore. Gordon "Conrad, Bart D" wrote: > I am near completion of fuselage. Have built wing ribs and tail feathers. I would be willing to fax a copy of my orders to anyone who wants to put together a list. Maybe compare it to other Piet builders parts list. I seemed to have not that much wood left over so I guess my list is semi accurate. I am often guilty of not ordering a little extra for screw-ups. Bart > > ---------- > > From: Gordon Brimhall[SMTP:arkiesair(at)surfree.com] > > Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 8:00 AM > > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage? > > > > You would think after 70 years their would be a list out someplace. > > > > Bet Replicraft has a list, an western aircraft has a list but they use it only > > to sell kits and material package. > > > > Good idea to get one and post it to web site. > > > > Gordon > > > > > > Burroughs wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have a building materials (wood) parts list for the fuselage on > > > the Aircamper? Sure would save me a lot of time calculating! > > > > > > Thanks, Glenn > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
The test for waterproofness in glue is to BOIL it water. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Cunningham <mikec(at)microlandusa.com>
Subject: Re: CA glues
Date: Aug 27, 1999
I'm with Matt Kirk on CA for home builts. I have used a lot of it over the years as a RC modeler. It has several advantages and dis-advantages. In big scale models we never trust CA to hold anything that will be subjected to heavy vibration, fike fire walls (I now use T-88). We also don't use it on primary structural joints like spars and tail attachments. I don't have any scientific info to pass along but I have always fealt that CA is somewhat brittle. I would never trust my back-side to it! -----Original Message----- From: Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 12:05 AM Subject: CA glues I've been watching the conversations here for a while as I have been considering a Piet myself. Todd Chisum's comment about CA (cyanoacrylate) superglues caught my eye and needs a reply. I've been using CA glues to build model airplanes for 14 years. They work great on balsa wood and plastics but are sometimes a little iffy on bass wood or the spruce I uses in my models. I suspect that the same would be true on the sitka spruce in full scale aircraft. I have noticed that it doesn't always "kickoff" or catalyze consistently. Sometimes these instant glues don't seem to set up well. The articles that I have read in the RC magazines seem to indicate that this has to do with the alkalinity of the wood and the humidity. There are a lot of handy varieties of CA glues (various viscosities ect) but I would stick with the glues such as T-88 or others. CA glues also have very very noxious fumes. If you were going to use enough to build an airplane you would need a respirator.I have read of moderlers developing severe allergies to CA's at least as severe as those that some people have to the resins used in fiberglass aircraft. I seem to remember that Rutan used some CA's on his round-the-world plane but that was a composite aircraft. A little long winded for my first message here but I hope it is helpful Matt Kirk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Todd Chisum <toddc12(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CA glues
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Thanks for the input on using CA in homebuilts. Your experiences with CA are similar to mine in R/C models. I tried it on one nose rib for my Cuby but found unless the joint was PERFECT there were little gaps that moisture could find its way into. I sealed the edges with resorcinol. The use by others of Titebond II is interesting. I'll try that on my next nose rib. Todd Chisum >I'm with Matt Kirk on CA for home builts. I have used a lot of it over the >years as a RC modeler. It has several advantages > and dis-advantages. In big scale models we never trust CA to hold >anything that will be subjected to heavy vibration, fike fire >walls (I now use T-88). We also don't use it on primary structural joints >like spars and tail attachments. I don't have any scientific info to pass >along but I have always fealt that CA is somewhat brittle. I would never >trust my back-side to it! >-----Original Message----- > From: Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 12:05 AM > Subject: CA glues > > > I've been watching the conversations here for a while as I have been >considering a Piet myself. Todd Chisum's comment about CA (cyanoacrylate) >superglues caught my eye and needs a reply. I've been using CA glues to >build model airplanes for 14 years. They work great on balsa wood and >plastics but are sometimes a little iffy on bass wood or the spruce I uses >in my models. I suspect that the same would be true on the sitka spruce in >full scale aircraft. I have noticed that it doesn't always "kickoff" or >catalyze consistently. Sometimes these instant glues don't seem to set up >well. The articles that I have read in the RC magazines seem to indicate >that this has to do with the alkalinity of the wood and the humidity. There >are a lot of handy varieties of CA glues (various viscosities ect) but I >would stick with the glues such as T-88 or others. CA glues also have very >very noxious fumes. If you were going to use enough to build an airplane >you would need a respirator.I have read of moderlers developing severe >allergies to CA's at least as severe as those that some people have to the >resins used in fiberglass aircraft. I seem to remember that Rutan used some >CA's on his round-the-world plane but that was a composite aircraft. A >little long winded for my first message here but I hope it is helpful > Matt Kirk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Plane Fun <fun_plane(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: everyone can get ASS catalog free
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Dear Gordon, Regarding your email on pricing of wood kits. Our pricing and quality of spruce is competitive with anyone in the market. And of course we guarantee to meet or beat a competitors price. The only real way to see if there is in deed a difference in price is to obtain kit lists from both companies and compare what is contained in each kit, to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. There are also different variations of the same plane one with a one piece wing and one with a three piece wing. All this really got my curiosity up so what I did was make a friendly call to Wicks and inquire about their spruce kit for Pietenpol Aircramper. What they told me, you can call and verify, was that they can supply materials needed for the plane but they do not have a list of materials, thus they have no idea exactly what is required in the kit or an idea of the actual cost. Wicks does not have a set spruce kit built up for the Aircamper. Again this is why I say the only way to really compare prices is to sit down with the kit list from each company and see what is contained or to supply the same list to each company and request a quote. Sincerely, Jerry Aguilar >From: Gordon Brimhall >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:11:45 -0700 > >We have been exchanging some nice emails in the past couple days. He is >taking >my advice and going to get on the list. I told him I could not be relaying >messages as it would be much better for him to speak for ACS. > >I will bounce all companys together for my supplies. If I can get good >stuff at >a fair price from ACS I will drive over and pick it up, I like to keep my >business close to home. But I will not pay a higher price just because they >are >close. > >Gordon > > >Gary Gower wrote: > > > >Group > > > > > >I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on > > >this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or > > >as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be > > >raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. > > > > > >He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year > > >because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the > > >GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for > > >the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something > > >like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two > > >catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > > >GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > > >the catalog before sending the thing out. > > > > > >So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot > > >because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. > > >Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. > > > > > >For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their > > >Marketing Director. > > > > > >Gordon > > > > > I know Mr Jerry Aguilar for several years, they used to call him (at the > > phone or desk) when a spanish speaking costumer called, I met him >personally > > 3 years ago the first time at S&F. He is a great help (also for english > > speaking costumers). Good and hard working get to high positions, Is >good > > to know that he is the Marketing Director. > > > > A saw him at S&F talking to some brazilians (in portugese - english - > > spanish) at the same time until he got the clear idea of what they >needed!! > > > > Saludos > > > > Gary Gower > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Plane Fun <fun_plane(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: everyone can get ASS catalog free
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Dear Gordon, Regarding your email on pricing of wood kits. Our pricing and quality of spruce is competitive with anyone in the market. And of course we guarantee to meet or beat a competitors price. The only real way to see if there is in deed a difference in price is to obtain kit lists from both companies and compare what is contained in each kit, to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. There are also different variations of the same plane one with a one piece wing and one with a three piece wing. All this really got my curiosity up so what I did was make a friendly call to Wicks and inquire about their spruce kit for Pietenpol Aircramper. What they told me, you can call and verify, was that they can supply materials needed for the plane but they do not have a list of materials, thus they have no idea exactly what is required in the kit or an idea of the actual cost. Wicks does not have a set spruce kit built up for the Aircamper. Again this is why I say the only way to really compare prices is to sit down with the kit list from each company and see what is contained or to supply the same list to each company and request a quote. Sincerely, Jerry Aguilar >From: Gordon Brimhall >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:11:45 -0700 > >We have been exchanging some nice emails in the past couple days. He is >taking >my advice and going to get on the list. I told him I could not be relaying >messages as it would be much better for him to speak for ACS. > >I will bounce all companys together for my supplies. If I can get good >stuff at >a fair price from ACS I will drive over and pick it up, I like to keep my >business close to home. But I will not pay a higher price just because they >are >close. > >Gordon > > >Gary Gower wrote: > > > >Group > > > > > >I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on > > >this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or > > >as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be > > >raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. > > > > > >He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year > > >because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the > > >GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for > > >the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something > > >like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two > > >catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > > >GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > > >the catalog before sending the thing out. > > > > > >So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot > > >because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. > > >Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. > > > > > >For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their > > >Marketing Director. > > > > > >Gordon > > > > > I know Mr Jerry Aguilar for several years, they used to call him (at the > > phone or desk) when a spanish speaking costumer called, I met him >personally > > 3 years ago the first time at S&F. He is a great help (also for english > > speaking costumers). Good and hard working get to high positions, Is >good > > to know that he is the Marketing Director. > > > > A saw him at S&F talking to some brazilians (in portugese - english - > > spanish) at the same time until he got the clear idea of what they >needed!! > > > > Saludos > > > > Gary Gower > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: CA glues
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Matt; I have tried some of this too but ALWAYS come back to T-88 due to it's versility and ease of use. CA's do have their limits, something to do with molecular intra-facial tension....something. I got crosseyed listening to all that as well as smelling it. I stick with T-88 or a high quality Marine adhesive in a pinch. T-88 is just so easy, FORGIVING and cut and dried The "structural gap filling" qualities is a good butt saver. I have played with spruce pieces with a glue-gap of 1/4". Each case, when totally dried, the wood still let go first. That is to say you don't do that with airframe parts, just a confidence building test. TO THE LIST IN GENERAL: Ref Resorcinal, where did youse guys read/SEE or hear that this was an "FAA APPROVED ADHESIVE" ?? The key words here are "approved". Inquiring mind wants to know....! Earl Myers ALSO; If any of you have any AN/MS hardware questions, I may be able to help as I was in that business for a number of years (12).......manufacturing and distribution. Earl Myers -----Original Message----- From: Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:01 AM Subject: CA glues I've been watching the conversations here for a while as I have been considering a Piet myself. Todd Chisum's comment about CA (cyanoacrylate) superglues caught my eye and needs a reply. I've been using CA glues to build model airplanes for 14 years. They work great on balsa wood and plastics but are sometimes a little iffy on bass wood or the spruce I uses in my models. I suspect that the same would be true on the sitka spruce in full scale aircraft. I have noticed that it doesn't always "kickoff" or catalyze consistently. Sometimes these instant glues don't seem to set up well. The articles that I have read in the RC magazines seem to indicate that this has to do with the alkalinity of the wood and the humidity. There are a lot of handy varieties of CA glues (various viscosities ect) but I would stick with the glues such as T-88 or others. CA glues also have very very noxious fumes. If you were going to use enough to build an airplane you would need a respirator.I have read of moderlers developing severe allergies to CA's at least as severe as those that some people have to the resins used in fiberglass aircraft. I seem to remember that Rutan used some CA's on his round-the-world plane but that was a composite aircraft. A little long winded for my first message here but I hope it is helpful Matt Kirk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: sitka grades
Date: Aug 27, 1999
A cup is not a bad idea when it comes to staplers. I was using a air powered stapler on my first Piet tail section. I was using 40 lbs of air pressure. One day I went into the shop to work and I didn't realize my son had adjusted the air pressure up to 120psi. I got ready to set a staple and used the stapler. After I pressed the button there was a small hole but no staple. So I did it again. Still no staple. So I checked for a jammed staple, but there was none. So I tried it again. Still a hole. This time though I thought to myself there seems to be alot of air kicked out of the vent when I stapled that time. So I checked the air pressure and found it was set high. I looked on the back of the wood and sure enough you could see where the staple had sliced all the way through. After I fixed everthing and finished my work I went into bed.(didn't replace wood but filled holes with T-88) When I was pulling my boots off I noticed two nice little staples sticking in one toe. I thought I sure was glad I had my boots on. Then I thought I'm sure glad I wasn't sitting down and working in my lap. Still never figured out where the third staple went. But I bought a more comfortable pair of safety glasses with side covers so I would be sure to wear them everytime. Didn't want everyone to think a one eyed pirate was flying around in an Air Camper. Greg Yotz -----Original Message----- From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: sitka grades >I used an Arrow electric staple gun when I built my cedar stripper canoe. >Staples were used to hold the 1/4"x1" cedar strips together while the glue >cured. The stapler was about $30 CDN ($20 USD) and was certainly >durable enough (3 boxes of staples had little effect on it). There were >three problems with the electric stapler in that application: > >1. Not enough power. I felt like Tim Taylor looking for a way to add MORE >POWER (RRR RRR RRR). It worked OK with 1/2" staples but there wasnt enough >power to staple the 1/4" strips into the oak stem using the 3/4" staples. >Air powered will probably work better. Crank it up to 200 PSI and you'll >probably get a good 1000 yds range! I could only get the staples to stick >into the wall at less than 10' with my wimpy gun ;-) This brings up >another point. Wear eye protection (and maybe a cup just in case ;-). > >2. It was hard to accurately figure out where the staples would end up. I >finally resorted to marking guide lines on the sides and front of teh >stapler to help with placing the staples where I wanted them. > >3. Glue! Since I was edge gluing the planks together in a cove and bead >seam, the glue would run out over the sides as I stapled. It would get all >over the bottom of the stapler. Fortunately, the glue was water soluable >and easily washed off. T-88 may not be so forgiving. Granted, you probably >wont have near the amount of excess glue on a wing rib. > >Ken > >On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, del magsam wrote: > >> my plans are on the table and ready to start. Any >> comments on using grade c and better sitka spruce for >> every thing with the exception of the spars? c and >> better is pretty clean and of course you would not >> use any piece with a swirl or knot. What are the pros >> and cons of the long fuse verses the short? Also has >> anybody used air powered staples to assemble the ribs >> etc? one more question, is baltic birch too heavy or >> not strong enough for the ply's? thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) >Calgary, Alberta, Canada >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Wood list
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Group-brewed a pot of coffee one Sat. morning and jotted down all the sizes I would need of wood for the Piet wings with my calculator and fudge factor....it doesn't take that long. Plus- some guys use birch, some guys use mahogany, some guys use Finnish plywood..... Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>The test for waterproofness in glue is to BOIL it water. > > How about making a plywood floats with TB II and landing in "sleep" volcano lake? That will be a real boiling test :-) :-) :-) (Couldnt stop this one) I did boil (for 5 minutes) a piece 2 years ago let it cool, it was still bonded, but pulling hard it did unglue, but I will never boil my plane, would'nt even dare to live it outside in a rainy day.... We love them so much to be that cruel... Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: I've got wood list
Date: Aug 27, 1999
I've got both the wood/cut list that Aircraft Spruce used (from a guy in Indiana) and an itemized quote from A.S.&S. Glad to share it but I'm trying to scan it and can't get good copies. Being the computer genius that I am, I gave up. Anyone know the knack of getting a good scan, or other means? walt I've got both the wood/cut list that Aircraft Spruce used (from a guy in Indiana) and an itemized quote from A.S.S. Glad to share it but I'm trying to scan it and can't get good copies. Being the computer genius that I am, I gave up. Anyone know the knack of getting a good scan, or other means? walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: everyone can get ASS catalog free
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Great, You made it to the list Jerry. But why a different email address, other companys use their company address. LikeI told you it was someone else saying he called Wicks and got the great price for all the parts, talking like they had a package all ready. Maybe it is impossable to have a package because of the different verations, we need to get a list together on this list and price it all out. I have volunteered to do it if I can get a list of needed spruce. I see you have a packaege listed for the GN-1 Aircamper and a price that was in error in the 1998/99 catalog with the corrected price in the 1999/2000 catalog. Are you planning to have a complete list for the Real Pietenpol Aircamper in standard form, with maybe an option for the 3 piece wing? Would be nice. Thanks Jerry for making the list. Gordon RW1 Piet Mohawk MK IV Plane Fun wrote: > Dear Gordon, > Regarding your email on pricing of wood kits. Our pricing and quality of > spruce is competitive with anyone in the market. And of course we guarantee > to meet or beat a competitors price. > The only real way to see if there is in deed a difference in price is to > obtain kit lists from both companies and compare what is contained in each > kit, to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. There are also > different variations of the same plane one with a one piece wing and one > with a three piece wing. > > All this really got my curiosity up so what I did was make a friendly call > to Wicks and inquire > about their spruce kit for Pietenpol Aircramper. What they told me, you can > call and verify, was that they can supply materials needed for the plane but > they do not have a list of materials, thus they have no idea exactly what is > required in the kit or an idea of the actual cost. Wicks does not have a > set spruce kit built up for the Aircamper. Again this is why I say the only > way to really compare prices is to sit down with the kit list from each > company and see what is contained or to supply the same list to each company > and request a quote. > > Sincerely, > Jerry Aguilar > > >From: Gordon Brimhall > >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free > >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:11:45 -0700 > > > >We have been exchanging some nice emails in the past couple days. He is > >taking > >my advice and going to get on the list. I told him I could not be relaying > >messages as it would be much better for him to speak for ACS. > > > >I will bounce all companys together for my supplies. If I can get good > >stuff at > >a fair price from ACS I will drive over and pick it up, I like to keep my > >business close to home. But I will not pay a higher price just because they > >are > >close. > > > >Gordon > > > > > >Gary Gower wrote: > > > > > >Group > > > > > > > >I was contacted by an Aircraft Spruce Sales Rep because someone on > > > >this list forwarded my message about the price upgrade on the Piet, Or > > > >as I said GN-1 He didn't really like my slam about they must be > > > >raising the price because the Pietenpol has become popular. > > > > > > > >He went on to say that the price in catalog was wrong last year > > > >because the 823.00 was suppose to be for the Pietenpol and not the > > > >GN-1 and this year in the 1999-2000 catalog they changed it to be for > > > >the Pietenpol but forgot to change the GN-1 to Pietenpol. something > > > >like that. I just pointed out to him that I was reading from two > > > >catalogs and it looked to me like they had raised to price for the > > > >GN-1 spruce kit from 823.00 to 1300.00 and maybe someone should edit > > > >the catalog before sending the thing out. > > > > > > > >So whoever forwarded my message to Aircraft Spruce, Thanks alot > > > >because I really enjoy talking to the Head Dish and Bottle Washer. > > > >Miss all that sinse I was in my High Pressure Govt job. > > > > > > > >For updated information give Jerry Aguilar a call. He is their > > > >Marketing Director. > > > > > > > >Gordon > > > > > > > I know Mr Jerry Aguilar for several years, they used to call him (at the > > > phone or desk) when a spanish speaking costumer called, I met him > >personally > > > 3 years ago the first time at S&F. He is a great help (also for english > > > speaking costumers). Good and hard working get to high positions, Is > >good > > > to know that he is the Marketing Director. > > > > > > A saw him at S&F talking to some brazilians (in portugese - english - > > > spanish) at the same time until he got the clear idea of what they > >needed!! > > > > > > Saludos > > > > > > Gary Gower > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Todd Chisum <toddc12(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>Great, You made it to the list Jerry. Jerry, Here is an idea for a product- laser cut wing rib gussets. They could be of a generic size or tailored for a specific airplane. My Cuby took over 700 1" x 2" pieces, plus a bunch of other sizes. That's a lot of time with a saw and sander! Talk to you later, Todd Chisum Tulsa, Oklahoma Wag Aero Super Sport project (but there is a Pietenpol in my future) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: I've got wood list
Date: Aug 27, 1999
How can you have it if they don't have it Walter:-) Please mail it to me. I don't have a scanner yet, still waiting for my new computer to arrive that went into shipping Monday. I want to get all lists together and then start compiling a Pietenpol Builders Manual when ever I start mine complete with all the construction pictures. Won't do anybody any good on this list now but for the future Youngens it may be of help if the FAA don't legislate us out of business. Gordon RW1 UL Piet Mowhawk MK IV Real Piet "Soon" walter evans wrote: > I've got both the wood/cut list that Aircraft Spruce used (from a > guy in Indiana) and an itemized quote from A.S.&S.Glad to share it > but I'm trying to scan it and can't get good copies. Being the > computer genius that I am, I gave up.Anyone know the knack of > getting a good scan, or other means?walt How can you have it if they don't have it Walter:-) Please mail it to me. I don't have a scanner yet, still waiting for my new computer to arrive that went into shipping Monday. I want to get all lists together and then start compiling a Pietenpol Builders Manual when ever I start mine complete with all the construction pictures. Won't do anybody any good on this list now but for the future Youngens it may be of help if the FAA don't legislate us out of business. Gordon RW1 UL Piet Mowhawk MK IV Real Piet "Soon" walter evans wrote: I've got both the wood/cut list that Aircraft Spruce used (from a guy in Indiana) and an itemized quote from A.S.S.Glad to share it but I'm trying to scan it and can't get good copies. Being the computer genius that I am, I gave up.Anyone know the knack of getting a good scan, or other means?walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Todd Great idea, I just cut enough today for a test rib on my UL Piet, pain in the seat. The UL calls for 1/16" gussets. How about a Laser Cut Piet In A Box I suggested a die cut set of gussets like we did in the old days. Laser much better. Gordon Todd Chisum wrote: > >Great, You made it to the list Jerry. > > Jerry, > > Here is an idea for a product- laser cut wing rib gussets. They could be > of a generic size or tailored for a specific airplane. My Cuby took over > 700 1" x 2" pieces, plus a bunch of other sizes. That's a lot of time with > a saw and sander! > > Talk to you later, > > Todd Chisum > Tulsa, Oklahoma > Wag Aero Super Sport project (but there is a Pietenpol in my future) > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ToySat(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: CA glues
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Hi Matt: Look into West systems glue. T-88 is real good and popular, BUT, some of the Broadhead fellas into'd me to West and the rest is becoming history er my story. Ryder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Why not just rip them up on a table saw? You can even stack the strips and cut 30+ gussets per pass. Best to use a scrap piece on the bottom to avoid splintering the edges. It would only take a couple of hours if they were square gussets. It would be a little longer if you had to cut angles, but even that's doable. Ken On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Gordon Brimhall wrote: > Todd > > Great idea, I just cut enough today for a test rib on my UL Piet, pain in the > seat. The UL calls for 1/16" gussets. > > How about a Laser Cut Piet In A Box > > I suggested a die cut set of gussets like we did in the old days. Laser much > better. > > Gordon > > > Todd Chisum wrote: > > > >Great, You made it to the list Jerry. > > > > Jerry, > > > > Here is an idea for a product- laser cut wing rib gussets. They could be > > of a generic size or tailored for a specific airplane. My Cuby took over > > 700 1" x 2" pieces, plus a bunch of other sizes. That's a lot of time with > > a saw and sander! > > > > Talk to you later, > > > > Todd Chisum > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > Wag Aero Super Sport project (but there is a Pietenpol in my future) > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Actually the 45 degree angle ones are easy, just flip it over for each cut once you are doing it. I had 4 pieces of wood stacked up. I was cutting 1/8 for this test rib. I have a table saw, band saw, sander belt/wheel. Just miss having my Mill and Lathe I had 20 yrs ago. Gordon Ken Beanlands wrote: > Why not just rip them up on a table saw? You can even stack the strips and > cut 30+ gussets per pass. Best to use a scrap piece on the bottom to avoid > splintering the edges. It would only take a couple of hours if they were > square gussets. It would be a little longer if you had to cut angles, but > even that's doable. > > Ken > > On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Gordon Brimhall wrote: > > > Todd > > > > Great idea, I just cut enough today for a test rib on my UL Piet, pain in the > > seat. The UL calls for 1/16" gussets. > > > > How about a Laser Cut Piet In A Box > > > > I suggested a die cut set of gussets like we did in the old days. Laser much > > better. > > > > Gordon > > > > > > Todd Chisum wrote: > > > > > >Great, You made it to the list Jerry. > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > Here is an idea for a product- laser cut wing rib gussets. They could be > > > of a generic size or tailored for a specific airplane. My Cuby took over > > > 700 1" x 2" pieces, plus a bunch of other sizes. That's a lot of time with > > > a saw and sander! > > > > > > Talk to you later, > > > > > > Todd Chisum > > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > > Wag Aero Super Sport project (but there is a Pietenpol in my future) > > > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) > Calgary, Alberta, Canada > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>>The test for waterproofness in glue is to BOIL it water. >> >> >> Another point to consider, if the wood "breaks" instead of the wood when pulling apart, and is waterprof enough almost to boiling point... the test pieces resist sun, rain and time for several years unprotected we will... Remember that the wood on the plane is going to be protected (including glue) with poliurethane (sp?) barnish, that is really resistant to water, the plane will be hangared when not flying, the pilot will have enough care to not get into rain when flying, if it gets a little wet he will dry it fast with a cloth. Then we would ask: When is the glue going to get enough water to melt? Remember when planes were made with Casein glue (we are maybe to young, so read some aviation history :-) that was a glue that melted with water, they only resist because where covered with some sort of "marine barnish", (Remember no certified aircraft parts available) these planes (or parts of them) are still in one piece in museums. Do your testing and get confidence yourself, I got enough confidence for using this glue nothing has unglued in several years. I am curious to know when Franklin Co. begin manufacturing the TB II, just for lerning... Buy the way, working with Resorcinol did not make me happy, to complicated to get a perfect bond, and the risk of not being well done is still there... certified or not. Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>>>The test for waterproofness in glue is to BOIL it water. >>> >Another point to consider, if the wood "breaks" instead of the wood when >pulling apart, and is waterprof enough almost to boiling point... the test >pieces resist sun, rain and time for several years unprotected we will... > >Remember that the wood on the plane is going to be protected (including >glue) with poliurethane (sp?) barnish, that is really resistant to water, >the plane will be hangared when not flying, the pilot will have enough care >to not get into rain when flying, if it gets a little wet he will dry it >fast with a cloth. > >Then we would ask: > >When is the glue going to get enough water to melt? Remember when planes >were made with Casein glue (we are maybe to young, so read some aviation >history :-) that was a glue that melted with water, they only resist because >where covered with some sort of "marine barnish", (Remember no certified >aircraft parts available) these planes (or parts of them) are still in one >piece in museums. > >Do your testing and get confidence yourself, I got enough confidence for >using this glue nothing has unglued in several years. I am curious to know >when Franklin Co. begin manufacturing the TB II, just for lerning... > >Buy the way, working with Resorcinol did not make me happy, to complicated >to get a perfect bond, and the risk of not being well done is still there... >certified or not. > >Saludos > >Gary Gower > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: I've got wood list
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Gordon, When I posted that, had it right in my hand. Contacted them on 5-98 about a qoute, they put me in touch with "Charleen". She was very knowledgable about Piets,even said a friend had one at Brodhead, where she had visited. She asked which model/length etc. I was building. She sent me a 3 page list of dimentional sizes and running ft., based on a lumber list supplied to them years before, by a guy in Jeffersonville Indiana.( I also rec'd a copy of that, which is the " cut to length list") This was no plywood, only spruce, for the long fuselage with the 3 piece wing. All rib cap strips cut to lenght + 1" (no "specialty cuts included like round leading edge or trailing edge) The Qoute in 5-98 was $1,138.13. I rec'd the wood in a couple of weeks and was very pleased with the quality ( this is my second wood project). I played around with scanner settings, and found if I don't shrink it down too much, you can still read it. I can send it to you, but it will be large. walt -------I still like Aircraft Spruce-------- -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Brimhall To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Re: I've got wood list How can you have it if they don't have it Walter:-) Please mail it to me. I don't have a scanner yet, still waiting for my new computer to arrive that went into shipping Monday. I want to get all lists together and then start compiling a Pietenpol Builders Manual when ever I start mine complete with all the construction pictures. Won't do anybody any good on this list now but for the future Youngens it may be of help if the FAA don't legislate us out of business. Gordon RW1 UL Piet Mowhawk MK IV Real Piet "Soon" walter evans wrote: I've got both the wood/cut list that Aircraft Spruce used (from a guy in Indiana) and an itemized quote from A.S.&S.Glad to share it but I'm trying to scan it and can't get good copies. Being the computer genius that I am, I gave up.Anyone know the knack of getting a good scan, or other means?walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: Re: I've got wood list
Date: Aug 27, 1999
>Gordon, > When I posted that, had it right in my hand. Contacted them on 5-98 about a qoute, they put me in touch with "Charleen". >She was very knowledgable about Piets,even said a friend had one at Brodhead, where she had visited. >She asked which model/length etc. I was building. She sent me a 3 page list of dimentional sizes and running ft., based on a lumber list supplied to them years before, by a guy in Jeffersonville Indiana.( I also rec'd a copy of that, which is the " cut to length list") >This was no plywood, only spruce, for the long fuselage with the 3 piece wing. All rib cap strips cut to lenght + 1" (no "specialty cuts included like round leading edge or trailing edge) >The Qoute in 5-98 was $1,138.13. I rec'd the wood in a couple of weeks and was very pleased with the quality ( this is my second wood project). > I played around with scanner settings, and found if I don't shrink it down too much, you can still read it. I can send it to you, but it will be large. >walt Hi Walt, Could I get a copy too?? Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sanders Family
Subject: Re: No apologies necessary
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Ted, Your misinformation fits right in with my procrastination (actually just long ours at the office). I haven't ordered the plans yet but I will do so very soon. Thanks for your research. If that manual is advertised on the BPA webpage, then I certainly missed it. -----Original Message----- From: Theodore Trevorrow <TJTREV(at)webtv.net> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: sorry Brian. Sorry for misinformation. I just checked the Pietenpol page and the manual is $ 27.00 including shipping. Ted.T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MACKORELL(at)aol.com
Subject: Turtle deck ribbing
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Could someone tell me the dimensions of the turtle deck ribbing? Jacob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: RE: Turtle deck ribbing
Date: Aug 27, 1999
1/4" x 1" tapered at the tail end to fit. Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University > -----Original Message----- > MACKORELL(at)aol.com > Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 8:54 PM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Turtle deck ribbing > > > Could someone tell me the dimensions of the turtle deck ribbing? > > Jacob > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Subject: Re: No apologies necessary
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Ted, Check out Don Pietenpols' Officail Pietenpol website. www.pietenpol.com/ This is where you will see the builders manual listed. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TJTREV(at)webtv.net (Theodore Trevorrow)
Subject: Re: No apologies necessary
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Brian My fault , I need to be more careful with my Pietenpols. the manual is listed at Don Pietenpols site. Not B.P.A Ted.T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TJTREV(at)webtv.net (Theodore Trevorrow)
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 27, 1999
I think Allen Rudoff's plane is put together with casein glue. Its not hanging in a museum its flying.Ted.T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: Flight Log to Brodhead finally complete
Date: Aug 27, 1999
Mostly. If you are really bored, check out my flight journal to Brodhead 99' Thanks to everyone! It will live forever in my memory... Enjoy. Check out http://steve.byu.edu/piet.htm Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Turtle deck ribbing
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Jocob, I used 1/4x1" that I ripped out of clear pine. Started with standard 5/4" stock. walt -----Original Message----- From: MACKORELL(at)aol.com <MACKORELL(at)aol.com> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 10:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turtle deck ribbing >Could someone tell me the dimensions of the turtle deck ribbing? > >Jacob > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert hensarling <rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Log to Brodhead finally complete
Date: Aug 28, 1999
-----Original Message----- From: steve(at)byu.edu Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 12:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flight Log to Brodhead finally complete What a great story Steve! Many, Many thanks for taking the time to document and share it with the group. After reading it, I've got an urge to go out to the airport and fly. Adios! >Mostly. > >If you are really bored, check out my flight journal to Brodhead 99' Thanks >to everyone! It will live forever in my memory... > >Enjoy. > >Check out http://steve.byu.edu/piet.htm > > >Steve Eldredge >IT Services >Brigham Young University > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MACKORELL(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Turtle deck ribbing
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Walt, Thanks for the info! Jacob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Flight Log to Brodhead finally complete
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Great, I just sent it all over the world, Hope you keep it their so I can add a pointer to it on some of my web sites. Gordon steve(at)byu.edu wrote: > Mostly. > > If you are really bored, check out my flight journal to Brodhead 99' Thanks > to everyone! It will live forever in my memory... > > Enjoy. > > Check out http://steve.byu.edu/piet.htm > > Steve Eldredge > IT Services > Brigham Young University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Meier <wmeier19(at)idt.net>
Subject: Marine Plywood in Piets
Date: Aug 28, 1999
I am looking for information regarding the use of Occume or Khaya marine plywood in a Piet. I am planning on beginning construction in the next year and would like to use it where feasible, mainly because I own a business whose primary product is selling it. Any comments/suggestions/opinions ? Wayne Meier ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: my wood list
Date: Aug 28, 1999
for anyone who is interested. I posted my woodlist 2,3,4,5 ( #1 is blank) which shows Aircraft Spruce's list to me last year , with dimentional sizes and a cut list #5. These are LARGE , but if you download them and print them, the printer will fit them to a page. http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/ under woodlist walt for anyone who is interested. I posted my woodlist 2,3,4,5 ( #1 is blank) which shows Aircraft Spruce's list to me last year , with dimentional sizes and a cut list #5. These are LARGE , but if you download them and print them, the printer will fit them to a page. href"http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/">http://www.aircamper.org/= users/wevans/ under woodlist walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James H. McFarland" <jhm(at)starii.net>
Subject: Re: my wood list
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Thanks Walter, I'm sure this will help me. - James McFarland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: my wood list
Date: - - - , 20-
for anyone who is interested. I posted my woodlist 2,3,4,5 ( #1 is blank) which shows Aircraft Spruce's list to me last year , with dimentional sizes and a cut list #5. These are LARGE , but if you download them and print them, the printer will fit them to a page. http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/ under woodlist walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard DeCosta
Subject: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Kerri Willette , Tileko Ridsdale , David W Padrusch , Everett Millett , Steve Large , LarsErik Johansson , Tim Gardner , Antonio Genovino , Steve Grant , Jeff Files , Bob Carpenter , John Carpenter , Michael Comet <comet@comet-cartoons.com>, Ros Bertran , Pietenpol Air Camper , mis(at)autoeurope.com Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots of beautiful black hair. Richard === http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: robert hensarling <rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 28, 1999
-----Original Message----- From: Richard DeCosta Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 9:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: It's a girl! Good for you Richard! Congratulations to your entire family! Robert Hensarling http://www.mesquite-furniture.com rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com Uvalde, Texas >Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and >baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots >of beautiful black hair. > >Richard >=== >http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Replicraft(at)aol.com
Subject: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Just thought I'd mention....I had a Steel Rule company make up a 2 1/2" diameter punch with an additional cutter down the center...making 2 halves for wing rib gussets. There is a local guy with a punch press that stamps them out for me. A 4' x 8' sheet of 1/16" ply makes thousands of these half moon gussets. They cost about $0.01.5 each. Look in your local Yellow Pages....these guys are everywhere! Steve Replicraft Aviation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Richard, Congratulations, I have a son and two daughters and I wouldn't trade them for all the pietenpols in the world. Nice to see whats really important in life, and it's fun to build aeroplanes too! this your first? were you there? walt e-mail me a cigar! -----Original Message----- From: Richard DeCosta Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: It's a girl! >Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and >baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots >of beautiful black hair. > >Richard >=== >http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vernon Hoppes <nc8607k(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 28, 1999
This is the best thing in your life, just take lots of photo's as thay grow up faster then you can think. Ours little gril will be 20 soon and she's the best thing in our life. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Congratulations,thats #2 i think,we had our girls 7 minutes apart! 7 years ago.All the best. Doug Hunt. > From: Richard DeCosta > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: It's a girl! > Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 8:29 PM > > Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and > baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots > of beautiful black hair. > > Richard > === > http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Steve; Are these available from you? Earl Myers -----Original Message----- From: Replicraft(at)aol.com <Replicraft(at)aol.com> Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Product Idea >Just thought I'd mention....I had a Steel Rule company make up a 2 1/2" >diameter punch with an additional cutter down the center...making 2 halves >for wing rib gussets. There is a local guy with a punch press that stamps >them out for me. A 4' x 8' sheet of 1/16" ply makes thousands of these half >moon gussets. They cost about $0.01.5 each. > >Look in your local Yellow Pages....these guys are everywhere! > >Steve >Replicraft Aviation > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: mesages
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Me too, what can I do? John Langston >I am receiving 2 copies of each message on the Pietenpol discussion >group, what should I change to only get only 1. >Thanks, > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Marine Plywood in Piets
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Any good grade of marine plywood shouldn't give you any problems. John Langston >I am looking for information regarding the use of Occume or Khaya >marine >plywood in a Piet. I am planning on beginning construction in the >next >year and would like to use it where feasible, mainly >because >I own a business whose primary product is selling it. > >Any comments/suggestions/opinions ? > >Wayne Meier > > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 25, 1999
Robert, We used T-88 on our project and it appears to be quite popular. It is mixed in equal parts which makes it easy. It does run though and you need to be careful about drips and excess glue. We're very confident in its strength. John Langston >Hey everyone, I ordered the lumber for the fuselage a few weeks ago >from >WICKS should be ready to pick up soon. this is a first time project >any >suggestions on the best and easiest glue to use? thanks, Robert Bush > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: speaking of the tail surfaces
Date: Aug 28, 1999
We ran into this problem too and used two thicknesses of gussets to solve it. It really worked out well. John Langston writes: >Someone brought up the tail surfaces, and that brought back some >thoughts. After I finished my horizontal stab. I looked at all of the >pics around and realized that everyones was a little different. > I ran into confusion with trying to join three different width wood, >on a centerline, plus bevel one thickness to the other so the joints >could be gusseted. then when the "main beam" that runs a few inches >behind the horz. stab. leading edge, joins the sides ( that are routed >out) , you run into yet another difference of thickness'. This had to >be gusseted also. >I don't know if you can follow my ramblings or not..... >Even after I finished them , and they came out ok, I went back to see >if I had missed something very basic. >Did any of you have this problem? > This is the part of the plane that I mostly had to wing it ( sorry) >walt > __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Neal <llneal(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Richard, Just got back from the airfield to read your note. CONGRATULATIONS!!! LLN P.S. This recent construction project of your(s) has not had sufficient attention. We are all concerned about performance and adherence to plans. Please post stills and videos to the web site ASAP! ;-) Richard DeCosta wrote: > Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and > baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots > of beautiful black hair. > > Richard > === > http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: I'll have to get a hamster
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Started routing spars yesterday, and got two done. Man, sure is alot of chips and sawdust. The deck wsa a winter wonderland. get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. walt Started routing spars yesterday, and got two done. Man, sure is alot of chips and sawdust. The deck wsa a winter wonderland. get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Fay <jefay(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 29, 1999
--- Lauren Williams wrote: > Weldwood Plastic Resin glue is great stuff to work > with. Last winter I got to restore > a boat that I built > 30 years ago. This boat is built of douglas fir > I have had to redo every glue joint in the boat. The > Plastic Resin glue > had totally failed. every bit of it had crystalized > and separated from > the wood. > > I guess that it depends on what kind of protection > you can give it and > how long you want it to last. > > Lauren > I was at a forum about wood aircraft at OSH about 4 years ago and the man said that the urea-formaldahyde glues should no longer be used in aircraft. He was from Australia and they have found quite a few where the glue joints were separating after 20 to 30 years of service. They seemed to think that the heat had a lot to do with it. I also thought I heard a year ago that now the FAA has joined the Australians and British in forbidding these glues. Maybe someone has better or more recent info. John in Peoria > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Fw: I'll have to get a hamster
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Steve, on the original plans , the spars are out of 1"x4 3/4" by about 13ft. spruce. To reduce weight there are two sections on each side that is routed out . There are 3 areas that stay the full 1x4 3/4,,, the butt end( near the plane) ,,the center area where the struts attach to the spars,,, and the tip ( I'm building the three piece wing) If you could see a cross section of the routed area, it would look kind of like an "I" beam. Between 3/4" from top and up from bottom , is untouched. inbetween there is routed out 1/4" deep on each side. This is to reduce weight , plus the pulley controls for the wings, mount in the routing. I can post a pic later today of my progress, if you'd like. walt -----Original Message----- From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 9:18 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: I'll have to get a hamster >Steve wrote: >A little info here! Can you explain this routing of the spars and if >possible send discription or pix. > >Thanks >Steve > > writes: >> Started routing spars yesterday, and got two done. Man, sure is alot >> of chips and sawdust. The deck wsa a winter wonderland. >> get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. >> walt > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: note about wood list
Date: Aug 29, 1999
To anyone who is looking at the wood list that I posted, there is one correction that I want to note... the cut list had the 2 center section spars as 28" long. This should be 29" long as per Pietenpols prints. I'm not blaming Aircraft Spruce, because they sent this to me for my approval, and I didn't catch it. (I had to lengthen mine). So if these lists brings you to the wood ordering point,,, be sure to bring up this correction to the supplier. walt To anyone who is looking at the wood list that I posted, there is one correction that I want to note... the cut list had the 2 center section spars as 28 long. This should be 29 long as per Pietenpols prints. I'm not blaming Aircraft Spruce, because they sent this to me for my approval, and I didn't catch it. (I had to lengthen mine). So if these lists brings you to the wood ordering point,,, be sure to bring up this correction to the supplier. walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 28, 1999
Congratulations on your first completed "homebuilt", Richard! Mike List Richard DeCosta wrote: > > Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and > baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots > of beautiful black hair. > > Richard > === ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: I'll have to get a hamster
Date: Aug 29, 1999
In a message dated 8/29/99 7:56:52 AM Central Daylight Time, wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: << get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. walt >> This brings up a question I have been pondering since I am about to start ripping capstrip materials. What is the etiquette for neighborhood noise with respect to hours of operation? I am sure it must vary from one neighbor to the next. Being a single dad, I have to do most of my work after my 3yr old is in bed. I'm kind of a night owl anyway and I picture myself wanting to fire up the table saw or run the bench grinder at 1 am. I guess I will limit my outdoor noisy stuff to the hours between about 8am and 9pm. So far, I am friends with all of my neighbors as far as I know. Has anyone ever pushed the limit and have a grouchy neighbor story to relate? TerryB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 29, 1999
congrats on a job well done!!! do I see a "Lucky Lindy" logo on the side of your Piet in the future??? JoeC Zion, Illinois Richard DeCosta wrote: > Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and > baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots > of beautiful black hair. > > Richard > === > http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 29, 1999
I am confused. I logged onto the Pietenpol web site to see what was available to suppliment the plans. There is a builders manual. I thought I remembered seeing a chapter the proffessed to be a part listing??? Ted > However, at this >time the designer/ plan owner Don Pietenpol does not have a material listing >showing the individual parts needed to build the Aircamper. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Builder's manual
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Can anyone who has the manual tell me how many pages are devoted to the last couple of chapters that actually give building tips? I don't mind buying the book if it really has some substantial information contained in it. Thanks, Ted ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 29, 1999
I did the same thing but I used the instrument hole cutter than cut the plugs in half and quarters JoeC Replicraft(at)aol.com wrote: > Just thought I'd mention....I had a Steel Rule company make up a 2 1/2" > diameter punch with an additional cutter down the center...making 2 halves > for wing rib gussets. There is a local guy with a punch press that stamps > them out for me. A 4' x 8' sheet of 1/16" ply makes thousands of these half > moon gussets. They cost about $0.01.5 each. > > Look in your local Yellow Pages....these guys are everywhere! > > Steve > Replicraft Aviation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Richard, Where are the pictures posted? Mark Boynton Gilbert, AZ P.S. Love that name. > Richard, > > Just got back from the airfield to read your note. > > CONGRATULATIONS!!! > > LLN > > P.S. This recent construction project of your(s) has not had sufficient > attention. We are all concerned about performance and adherence to > plans. Please post stills and videos to the web site ASAP! ;-) > > > > > Richard DeCosta wrote: > > > Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and > > baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots > > of beautiful black hair. > > > > Richard > > === > > http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder > > > _______ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: I'll have to get a hamster
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Terry, I would start by finding out what your town laws are. Each town has deffinite start and stop times for weekdays, sat, and sun. Nice to know that if a neighbor complains, you are, at least , legally in the right. This being Sun, I waited till 10:00 walt -----Original Message----- From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: I'll have to get a hamster >In a message dated 8/29/99 7:56:52 AM Central Daylight Time, >wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: > ><< get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. > walt > >> > >This brings up a question I have been pondering since I am about to start >ripping capstrip materials. What is the etiquette for neighborhood noise >with respect to hours of operation? I am sure it must vary from one neighbor >to the next. Being a single dad, I have to do most of my work after my 3yr >old is in bed. I'm kind of a night owl anyway and I picture myself wanting >to fire up the table saw or run the bench grinder at 1 am. I guess I will >limit my outdoor noisy stuff to the hours between about 8am and 9pm. So far, >I am friends with all of my neighbors as far as I know. Has anyone ever >pushed the limit and have a grouchy neighbor story to relate? > TerryB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kyle ray <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net>
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Jul 26, 1999
Yes but since I don't plan on boiling my airplane why should I worry about a boil test, I doubt if any epoxy glues will pass a boil test however they are the first choice of many of the old school boat builders,sail boats powered run about etc. The point is no one glue is perfect, each has it's strengths and weakness'. The marine epoxy I use is Raka Epoxy you can find it one the net, one of the advantages is it'll gap fill like crazy and the glue in the joint is stronger than the wood itself, The advantage with the TiteBond is that ventilation and rubber gloves is not needed but neither of these glues will pass a boil test. The birch ply soaks the epoxy up and sometimes traces are seen coming through the other side of the 1/16 ply. Also epoxy doesn't need the clamping pressures other glues need! I do however plan on painting my wings white as with any epoxy plane to keep temperatures down as much as possible. ----- Original Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lauren Williams <LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Titebond II
> The test for waterproofness in glue is to BOIL it water. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: OT Noise in town was I'll have to get a hamster
Date: Aug 29, 1999
MY neighbor on one side 10' away used to tease my Puppy Beagle, when the dog grew up he barked at the neighbor every time he was out in his yard, So he complained to me. But that was after he had borrowed all my tools plus my Troy Built Tiller to do his new yard. My other neighbor behind me used to come home from work at 10pm and start doing car body work because he slept during the day. So during the day on my day off I would put my stereo out on the patio and play load music, He complained, I said it works both ways. I had a old bus pull up and took up residence by my sidewalk on my corner lot, After 3 days I went out to ask him to go live someplace else, He pointed to his Protected by 45 sign. I called police and they moved him out. He came back in two days, I called the city Manager and asked him what his address was so I could have this person go live in the front of his house, the police came out and moved him again, he never came back. So now I live in the middle of 2 1/2 acres, my closes neighbor is 250 ft away from me. Life is too short to live in the city, I will never live that close to anybody again. Got two neighbors that work on cars alot, never even hear them now. I believe in most city's a 10pm time is on the books to be quite. Gordon walter evans wrote: > Terry, > I would start by finding out what your town laws are. Each town has > deffinite start and stop times for weekdays, sat, and sun. Nice to know > that if a neighbor complains, you are, at least , legally in the right. > This being Sun, I waited till 10:00 > walt > -----Original Message----- > From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:24 AM > Subject: Re: I'll have to get a hamster > > >In a message dated 8/29/99 7:56:52 AM Central Daylight Time, > >wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: > > > ><< get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. > > walt > > >> > > > >This brings up a question I have been pondering since I am about to start > >ripping capstrip materials. What is the etiquette for neighborhood noise > >with respect to hours of operation? I am sure it must vary from one > neighbor > >to the next. Being a single dad, I have to do most of my work after my 3yr > >old is in bed. I'm kind of a night owl anyway and I picture myself wanting > >to fire up the table saw or run the bench grinder at 1 am. I guess I will > >limit my outdoor noisy stuff to the hours between about 8am and 9pm. So > far, > >I am friends with all of my neighbors as far as I know. Has anyone ever > >pushed the limit and have a grouchy neighbor story to relate? > > TerryB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kyle ray <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net>
Subject: Re: Marine Plywood in Piets
Date: Jul 26, 1999
Yes, the skin of the Jodels was Okoume 1.5 mm. Seems like the African nation of Gabon was once under French rule and Okoume was easy to get in France. Its side hardness is not what true mahogany or birch is but a slight coat of epoxy makes it durable enough for the floor board. Bacteria and fungi love Okoume so make double sure every thing is sealed with maine varnish or epoxy! Russell ----- Original Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Meier <wmeier19(at)idt.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 3:59 PM
Subject: Marine Plywood in Piets
> I am looking for information regarding the use of Occume or Khaya marine > plywood in a Piet. I am planning on beginning construction in the next > year and would like to use it where feasible, mainly because > I own a business whose primary product is selling it. > > Any comments/suggestions/opinions ? > > Wayne Meier > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: routing the day away
Date: Aug 29, 1999
put some pics (from video) on the site of the routing experience. http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/ walt spar1,2,3 put some pics (from video) on the site of the routing experience. href"http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/">http://www.aircamper.org/= users/wevans/ walt spar1,2,3 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Meier <wmeier19(at)idt.net>
Subject: Re: I'll have to get a hamster
Date: Aug 29, 1999
I woke to the sound of the neighbor removing six inches of snow from his driveway at three AM once. This was not the first time. I got up, got dressed and went out to confront him. When I asked if he was aware that people sleep during this time and would he cease, he replied "well...you mow your lawn before noon !" and then " I have to clear the driveway so my wife can go to work at six" His wife has been observed to leave before eight thirty to nine, as she did later that am. Aside from that, if you get along with neighbors, ask what is acceptable to them. Otherwise, be reasonable- ten is usually late enough for loud noise outside. I feel seven am is too early, but most house construction crews near here start about then. Wayne BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/29/99 7:56:52 AM Central Daylight Time, > wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: > > << get started today after the neighborhood wakes up. > walt > >> > > This brings up a question I have been pondering since I am about to start > ripping capstrip materials. What is the etiquette for neighborhood noise > with respect to hours of operation? I am sure it must vary from one neighbor > to the next. Being a single dad, I have to do most of my work after my 3yr > old is in bed. I'm kind of a night owl anyway and I picture myself wanting > to fire up the table saw or run the bench grinder at 1 am. I guess I will > limit my outdoor noisy stuff to the hours between about 8am and 9pm. So far, > I am friends with all of my neighbors as far as I know. Has anyone ever > pushed the limit and have a grouchy neighbor story to relate? > TerryB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: wood list
Date: Aug 29, 1999
I studied mu plans for hours and hour, over weeks and weeks. Finally I just ordered a wood kit from Western Aircraft. Three weeks later I took delivery of 2 shipping tubes containing the most beautiful, sweetest smelling aircraft quality "wood list" there is. Haven't given a moments week stated "electric and hand staplers are to brutal on wood unless you use wire staples" Wire staples are exactly what you want to use. Craftsman 1/4 wire staples from Sears with my Arrow JT-21 stapler are fast and accurate. they don't splinter cap strips. He also had a long process for nailing gussets. steaming one capstrip at a time and leaving rib in jig overnight. make your bending jig wide enough for at least 3 cap strips. (2X4 works fine) You are ahead on pre-bent capstrips. One ugly rainy day last Nov.,using squeeze bottles for epoxy, medicine cups for mixing, and staple gun, I knocked out 4 ribs in one day. I could have built 5 but I took ill. actually I was just sick of building ribs. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobby
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Hello Everyone Fuselage 1" x 1" x 35' 4pcs 1" x 1" x 6' 1pcs 1" x 1" x 5' 1pcs 7/8" x 2" x 6' 2pcs 7/8" x 1" x 6' 1pcs 3/4" x 1" x 8' 4pcs 3/4" x 1" x 3' 1pcs 1/2" x 1" x 6' 5pcs 5/8" x 1" x 5' 1pcs Wing 1" x 4 3/4" x 14' 4pcs 1" x 4 3/4" x 29" 2pcs 1/2" x 3" x 7' 4pcs 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 7' 2pcs 3/4" x 3/4" x 5' 4pcs 1/2" x 1/2" x 7' 4pcs Tail 1" x 1" x 8' 2pcs 1" x 1" x 5' 2pcs 1" x 1" x 7' 1pcs 1" x 1" x 6' 1pcs 3/4" x 1" x 8' 4pcs 3/4" x 1/2" x 5' 2pcs 5/8" x 1 1/4" x 9' 1pcs 3/16" x 1/2" x 6' 7pcs 3/16" x 1/2" x 4' 7pcs 500' of capstrip 1/4" x 1/4" for up to 65hp. I do not know if this is an accurate list that was given to me as I have not had a chance to verify this with my plans. If anyone out there could verify this as accurate please get back to me. Hope this helps everyone. Bobby srkraut(at)idirect.com -----Original Message----- From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood List for Fuselage? >I am confused. I logged onto the Pietenpol web site to see what was >available to suppliment the plans. There is a builders manual. I thought I >remembered seeing a chapter the proffessed to be a part listing??? > >Ted > >> However, at this >>time the designer/ plan owner Don Pietenpol does not have a material listing >>showing the individual parts needed to build the Aircamper. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Replicraft(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: New Product Idea
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Earl- Yes, I have a box full...we are currently building both a Grega and an Acro ll rib set, so the supply is rather low. But, getting another sheet or two cut is not a problem. Please note the 1.5 cents was for the cuttung only, material was always supplied by me... Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Panzera
Subject: Images
Date: Aug 29, 1999
walter evans wrote: > > put some pics (from video) on the site of the routing experience. > http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/ Walt, are you on the CorvAIRCRAFT e-mail list? Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 29, 1999
the two differences between your list and mine::::::: building a 6 place tandem) 7/8x2x6' 2pcs should be 7/8x1x8' 2pcs this is the only difference to my list , and I've completed fuselage, all ribs, all tail surfaces,spars, just yet to build wings. Your list like mine doesn't include leading or trailing edges. this is my 2 cents worth walt -----Original Message----- From: bobby Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood List for Fuselage? >Hello Everyone > >Fuselage >1" x 1" x 35' 4pcs >1" x 1" x 6' 1pcs >1" x 1" x 5' 1pcs >7/8" x 2" x 6' 2pcs >7/8" x 1" x 6' 1pcs >3/4" x 1" x 8' 4pcs >3/4" x 1" x 3' 1pcs >1/2" x 1" x 6' 5pcs >5/8" x 1" x 5' 1pcs > >Wing >1" x 4 3/4" x 14' 4pcs >1" x 4 3/4" x 29" 2pcs >1/2" x 3" x 7' 4pcs >1/2" x 1 1/2" x 7' 2pcs >3/4" x 3/4" x 5' 4pcs >1/2" x 1/2" x 7' 4pcs > >Tail >1" x 1" x 8' 2pcs >1" x 1" x 5' 2pcs >1" x 1" x 7' 1pcs >1" x 1" x 6' 1pcs >3/4" x 1" x 8' 4pcs >3/4" x 1/2" x 5' 2pcs >5/8" x 1 1/4" x 9' 1pcs >3/16" x 1/2" x 6' 7pcs >3/16" x 1/2" x 4' 7pcs > >500' of capstrip 1/4" x 1/4" for up to 65hp. > >I do not know if this is an accurate list that was given to me as I have not >had a chance to verify this with my plans. If anyone out there could verify >this as accurate please get back to me. Hope this helps everyone. > >Bobby >srkraut(at)idirect.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:36 AM >Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage? > > >>I am confused. I logged onto the Pietenpol web site to see what was >>available to suppliment the plans. There is a builders manual. I thought >I >>remembered seeing a chapter the proffessed to be a part listing??? >> >>Ted >> >>> However, at this >>>time the designer/ plan owner Don Pietenpol does not have a material >listing >>>showing the individual parts needed to build the Aircamper. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oshbridge(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Builder's manual
Date: Aug 29, 1999
I'd have to say I didn't find the builders manual very informative. I'm gleening more info off this mailing list than I did from the manual. I bought the manual and the plans, but I haven't ordered any material or started anything yet. I'm still trying to figure everything out and work up the courage to take the plunge. Jim T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Images
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Pat, no, the only interest that I have in corvairs is my mentor freind who is an AP and has been building geared corvairs for a while. I was impressed with his workmanship so I posted some of his pics on the Aircamper/org site. walt PS he designed and build a new crankshaft for this eng.... http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/dickmtr1.jpg -----Original Message----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Panzera
Date: - - - , 20-
Subject: Images
>walter evans wrote: >> >> put some pics (from video) on the site of the routing experience. >> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/ > >Walt, are you on the CorvAIRCRAFT e-mail list? > >Pat > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Thanks Bobby and Walter for the info. What type of materials has different builders been using, Spruce, Fir, Pine?? Spruce being lighter and fir being stronger and pine lighter and weaker. Gordon bobby wrote: > Hello Everyone > > Fuselage > 1" x 1" x 35' 4pcs > 1" x 1" x 6' 1pcs > 1" x 1" x 5' 1pcs > 7/8" x 2" x 6' 2pcs > 7/8" x 1" x 6' 1pcs > 3/4" x 1" x 8' 4pcs > 3/4" x 1" x 3' 1pcs > 1/2" x 1" x 6' 5pcs > 5/8" x 1" x 5' 1pcs > > Wing > 1" x 4 3/4" x 14' 4pcs > 1" x 4 3/4" x 29" 2pcs > 1/2" x 3" x 7' 4pcs > 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 7' 2pcs > 3/4" x 3/4" x 5' 4pcs > 1/2" x 1/2" x 7' 4pcs > > Tail > 1" x 1" x 8' 2pcs > 1" x 1" x 5' 2pcs > 1" x 1" x 7' 1pcs > 1" x 1" x 6' 1pcs > 3/4" x 1" x 8' 4pcs > 3/4" x 1/2" x 5' 2pcs > 5/8" x 1 1/4" x 9' 1pcs > 3/16" x 1/2" x 6' 7pcs > 3/16" x 1/2" x 4' 7pcs > > 500' of capstrip 1/4" x 1/4" for up to 65hp. > > I do not know if this is an accurate list that was given to me as I have not > had a chance to verify this with my plans. If anyone out there could verify > this as accurate please get back to me. Hope this helps everyone. > > Bobby > srkraut(at)idirect.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:36 AM > Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage? > > >I am confused. I logged onto the Pietenpol web site to see what was > >available to suppliment the plans. There is a builders manual. I thought > I > >remembered seeing a chapter the proffessed to be a part listing??? > > > >Ted > > > >> However, at this > >>time the designer/ plan owner Don Pietenpol does not have a material > listing > >>showing the individual parts needed to build the Aircamper. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: S51dmus(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Russell, Have you researched the Titebond Polyurethane glue which is listed as being waterproof? You can go to their website and find some info on it - but it doesn't say how it compares to Titebond II strengthwise. It does claim, however, that it is "twice as thick as other polyurethanes" and is "unaffected by finishes." Good luck on your Piet. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Randy Gaskins <randy(at)icomnet.com>
Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Walter, please help me. Not knowing much about computers, I don't know how I was unsubscribed from the Piet discussion group. Please tell me how I can resubscribe. Thanks in advance. walter evans wrote: > Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for > guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft Spruce > catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has discussed > A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't beat their > catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and brackets and > blah,blah,blah.Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they only list > numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND stuff like > heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more "keeper" > charts for ref.Their main site is:http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/ and > to get right to page to order > book:https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalog_order > the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out > address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of "book" The good > thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like the > address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends thru > my comp.walt Walter, please help me. Not knowing much about computers, I don't know how I was unsubscribed from the Piet discussion group. Please tell me how I can resubscribe. Thanks in advance. walter evans wrote: Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft Spruce catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has discussed A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't beat their catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and brackets and blah,blah,blah.Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they only list numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND stuff like heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more "keeper" charts for ref.Their main site is:http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/ and to get right to page to order book:https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalog_order the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of "book" The good thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like the address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends thru my comp.walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Randy, go here and fill in the blanks. Bookmark this page http://www.aircamper.org/MailingList.cfm walt -----Original Message----- From: Randy Gaskins <randy(at)icomnet.com> To: Pietenpol Discussion Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:35 PM Subject: Re: everyone can get AS&S catalog free Walter, please help me. Not knowing much about computers, I don't know how I was unsubscribed from the Piet discussion group. Please tell me how I can resubscribe. Thanks in advance. walter evans wrote: Just a tidbit of infro. in case everyone isn't aware. Mostly for guys just starting or dreaming. You can get the free Aircraft Spruce catalog free ( not a penny) on the internet. The group has discussed A.S. recently, and if you like them or not, you can't beat their catalog . It has good pics of the hardware and screws and brackets and blah,blah,blah.Even if I'm buying from Dillsburg,( they only list numbers), this gives the numbers on all the stuff. AND stuff like heat treating,metal guage,bending radiis, and alot more "keeper" charts for ref.Their main site is:http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/ and to get right to page to order book:https://www.aircraft-spruce.com/spruce/order.cgi/01-38400?,catalog_o= rder the cat. is already listed near the top, just go down and fill out address etc. Soon you'll get a Fedex mailer full of "book" The good thing is you can get them for all of your friends. Not like the address has to match the email. I've gotten many for my friends thru my comp.walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Swanson
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Plastic resin (urea-formaldehyde) glues are discussed in the latest version of AC 43.13-1B, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices, page 1-4: Plastic resin glue (urea-formalde-hyde resin glue) has been used in wood aircraft for many years. Caution should be used due to possible rapid deterioration (more rapidly than wood) of plastic resin glue in hot, moist envi-ronments and under cyclic swell-shrink stress. For these reasons, urea-formaldehyde should be considered obsolete for all repairs. Any proposed use of this type adhesive should be discussed with the appropriate FAA office prior to using on certificated aircraft. Aerolite glue is urea-formaldehyde. I scrapped half my ribs made with this, and started over with T-88. Aerolite has been used for years, but I knew if I used it I would think about this paragraph everytime I flew the plane. T-88 works great, very pleased with its gap filling properties. There is some talk about epoxies softening at elevated temps, but they are very high, and airflow over the wing quickly cools it down. The softening is not cumulative as it is with Aerolite. Al Swanson > > >--- Lauren Williams wrote: >> Weldwood Plastic Resin glue is great stuff to work >> with. > Last winter I got to restore >> a boat that I built >> 30 years ago. This boat is built of douglas fir >> I have had to redo every glue joint in the boat. The >> Plastic Resin glue >> had totally failed. every bit of it had crystalized >> and separated from >> the wood. >> >> I guess that it depends on what kind of protection >> you can give it and >> how long you want it to last. >> >> Lauren >> > > >I was at a forum about wood aircraft at OSH about 4 years ago and the >man said that the urea-formaldahyde glues should no longer be used in >aircraft. He was from >Australia and they have found quite a few where the glue joints were >separating after 20 to 30 years of service. They seemed to think that >the heat had a lot to do with it. I also thought I heard a year ago >that now the FAA has joined the Australians and British in forbidding >these glues. Maybe someone has better or more recent info. > >John in Peoria >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Swanson
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Builder's manual
Date: Aug 29, 1999
Ted, I found the Builders Manual a good deal. There are chapters from Modern Mechanics magazine written by Bernard, also 3 chapters on coverting the Ford A. Also chapters on building the Sky Scout- it was in this chapter I found a great step-by-step recommendation on how to put the fuselage sides and bottom together. The last 15 pages are builders hints. In addition there is a color photograph of Bernard, and the manual is personalized to the purchaser and signed by Don Pietenpol. It is worth it just from the history it contains. Al Swanson >Can anyone who has the manual tell me how many pages are devoted to the last >couple of chapters that actually give building tips? > >I don't mind buying the book if it really has some substantial information >contained in it. > >Thanks, > >Ted > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: RE: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 30, 1999
A hearty Congratulations! All our best to your family.... Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University > -----Original Message----- > Richard DeCosta > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 8:30 PM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: It's a girl! > > > Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and > baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots > of beautiful black hair. > > Richard > === > http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: It's a girl!
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Congratulations Richard! Now when do we get to see pictures??? Love the name.... Belinda (Lindy) Pietenpol DeCosta just doesn't sound right..... Greg Yotz -----Original Message----- From: Richard DeCosta Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 9:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: It's a girl! >Belinda (Lindy) Piper DeCosta born Aug. 28 8:24pm. 8lb 4oz. Mother and >baby (and father :) all going well. She has her mother's eyes and lots >of beautiful black hair. > >Richard >=== >http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Partially Built Piet
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Just wanted to ask everyone's opinion. I looked at a partially completed Piet yesterday that I'm thinking about buying. The wings are complete but not covered, three piece. Fuselage is complete except final control cabling and instruments, long design. Engine mount for a Lyc is complete and test hung. 65 HP Lycoming in 'good running order', what ever that means for sure. There is half of an engine cowl complete and a fiberglass fuel tank. It is setting on Champ style gear with no rubber or rims. The plane is just about ready to cover and the gentlemen who built it was an exceptional wood worker. He passed away with congestive heart failure and his son is selling. Ok, now for the questions. What should I look at specifically, if anything for safety or correctness. All joints look good, T88 was the glue. The ribs are better than any of mine. All the wood is Spruce and looks good as far as grain run out and per inch. The plane was supposed to have been inspected by the FAA once but he couldn't find any paper work or logs. Same with the engine. How much is the aircraft worth and how much the engine? This will put me way ahead of my project. If I buy I think I'll keep working on the one I've started though, even after I've finished the new one. Thanks everyone, Greg Yotz Just wanted to ask everyone's opinion. I looked at a partially completed Piet yesterday that I'm thinking about buying. The wings are complete but not covered, three piece. Fuselage is complete except final control cabling and instruments, long design. Engine mount for a Lyc is complete and test hung. 65 HP Lycoming in 'good running order', what ever that means for sure. There is half of an engine cowl complete and a fiberglass fuel tank. It is setting on Champ style gear with no rubber or rims. The plane is just about ready to cover and the gentlemen who built it was an exceptional wood worker. He passed away with congestive heart failure and his son is selling. Ok, now for the questions. What should I look at specifically, if anything for safety or correctness. All joints look good, T88 was the glue. The ribs are better than any of mine. All the wood is Spruce and looks good as far as grain run out and per inch. The plane was supposed to have been inspected by the FAA once but he couldn't find any paper work or logs. Same with the engine. How much is the aircraft worth and how much the engine? This will put me way ahead of my project. If I buy I think I'll keep working on the one I've started though, even after I've finished the new one. Thanks everyone, Greg Yotz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Titebond II
Date: Aug 30, 1999
> I think Allen Rudoff's plane is put together with >casein glue. Its not hanging in a museum its flying.Ted.T > > Point in favor, if the glue holds better than the breaking point of the wood and is waterproff (even with the "help" of the barnish) is a good glue. It is still possible to find Casein Glue? Will like to know if someone uses it for any project, even is its not an airplane... Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Partially Built Piet
Date: Aug 30, 1999
On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Greg Yotz wrote: > Just wanted to ask everyone's opinion. > How much is the aircraft worth and how much the engine? > > Thanks everyone, > > > Greg Yotz > Looking at the going price for completed Piets, Flybabies and the like, I'd say that the airframe is worth around $4000-$5000 and the engine another $1400-2500 USD, depending on the condition. Definitely check the engine for compression and runout on the crank. This will give you at least an indication as to whether it's had a prop strike. I'd say offer him $4000-$5000 for the lot and see how it goes. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu>
Subject: Re: Partially Built Piet
Date: Aug 30, 1999
My rule of thumb for any partially built homebuilt is that its value is only marinally more than the value of the material. The engine may cause some concern in that parts for a 65 Lycoming are getting scarce and this engine may cost more in the long run that an equivelant 65 Continental. Compariny it to another Piet I know of that's for sale, was flying with a corvair until corvair died, landed in hay field and took out one wing, all ribs built to repair wing, asking price $2500. I'd start in the $2000 range and go from there. Things to look for are how close to plans is the construction. Weight of components and quality of construction. It all comes down to a willing buyer and a willing seller! Greg Yotz wrote: > Just wanted to ask everyone's opinion.I looked at a partially > completed Piet yesterday that I'm thinking about buying.The wings are > complete but not covered, three piece. Fuselage is complete except > final control cabling and instruments, long design.Engine mount for a > Lyc is complete and test hung. 65 HP Lycoming in 'good running > order', what ever that means for sure.There is half of an engine cowl > complete and a fiberglass fuel tank. It is setting on Champ style > gear with no rubber or rims.The plane is just about ready to cover and > the gentlemen who built it was an exceptional wood worker. He passed > awaywith congestive heart failure and his son is selling. Ok, now for > the questions. What should I look at specifically, if anything for > safety or correctness. All joints look good, T88 was the glue. The > ribs are better than any of mine. All the wood is Spruce and looks > good as far as grain run out and per inch. The plane was supposed to > have beeninspected by the FAA once but he couldn't find any paper work > or logs. Same with the engine. How much is the aircraft worth and how > much the engine? This will put me way ahead of my project. If I buy I > think I'll keep working on the one I've started though, even after > I've finished the new one. Thanks everyone, Greg Yotz My rule of thumb for any partially built homebuilt is that its value is only marinally more than the value of the material. The engine may cause some concern in that parts for a 65 Lycoming are getting scarce and this engine may cost more in the long run that an equivelant 65 Continental. Compariny it to another Piet I know of that's for sale, was flying with a corvair until corvair died, landed in hay field and took out one wing, all ribs built to repair wing, asking price $2500. I'd start in the $2000 range and go from there. Things to look for are how close to plans is the construction. Weight of components and quality of construction. It all comes down to a willing buyer and a willing seller! Greg Yotz wrote: Just wanted to ask everyone's opinion.I looked at a partially completed Piet yesterday that I'm thinking about buying.The wings are complete but not covered, three piece. Fuselage is complete except final control cabling and instruments, long design.Engine mount for a Lyc is complete and test hung. 65 HP Lycoming in 'good running order', what ever that means for sure.There is half of an engine cowl complete and a fiberglass fuel tank. It is setting on Champ style gear with no rubber or rims.The plane is just about ready to cover and the gentlemen who built it was an exceptional wood worker. He passed awaywith congestive heart failure and his son is selling.Ok, now for the questions.What should I look at specifically, if anything for safety or correctness. All joints look good, T88 was the glue. The ribs are better than any of mine. All the wood is Spruce and looks good as far as grain run out and per inch. The plane was supposed to have beeninspected by the FAA once but he couldn't find any paper work or logs. Same with the engine.How much is the aircraft worth and how much the engine?This will put me way ahead of my project. If I buy I think I'll keep working on the one I've started though, even after I've finished the new one.Thanks everyone,Greg Yotz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Randy Gaskins <randy(at)icomnet.com>
Subject: suscribe
Date: Aug 30, 1999
________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: RE: suscribe
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Head to www.aircamper.com follow the mailing list links, Best Regards Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University > -----Original Message----- > Randy Gaskins > Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:57 AM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: suscribe > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)bbt.com>
Subject: Control pulleys
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Group, I am in the process of fabricating the control system for our Piet. I recall talking to someone at Brodhead last year about the sizes of the control pulleys that mount on the torque tube, and remember being told that the front pulley needs to be larger than the 2" diameter shown on the plans because of the almost 270 degree direction change the front elevator cable must go through from the front stick lug, over the pulley, and to the back. (The concern is the bend redius of the cable / pulley for such a severe direction change.) In looking at the assembled torque tube, however, it is immediately obvious that there is not enough room between the torque tube and the rod connecting the front and rear sticks to install a much larger pulley without moving the connecting tube higher on the sticks. But then I get concerned about clearance between the connecting rod and the underside of the front seat. Has anyone shared this concern and successfully done anything about it? Is anyone aware of a documented rule of thumb for pulley sizes and degrees of change of direction for a primary flight control cable? A cursory reading of AC43-13 revealed nothing, and I certainly would appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance, -Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steve(at)byu.edu
Subject: Double messages
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Problem has been looked into, cause found. resolved. Let me know if you still have a problem, please email direct. Thanks, Steve Eldredge IT Services Brigham Young University > -----Original Message----- > nle97(at)juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 10:34 AM > To: Pietenpol Discussion > Subject: Re: mesages > > > Me too, what can I do? > John Langston > > >I am receiving 2 copies of each message on the Pietenpol discussion > >group, what should I change to only get only 1. > >Thanks, > > > > __________ > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: How heavy is too heavy??
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Hi all, I've been reading with great interest the posts from the past 4 days, and learning a lot about this wonderful aircraft. But, I have a question for y'all (from Texas!) that I was wondering about: I weigh about 250 lbs, and that being the case, is it still advisable for me to entertain thoughts of building a Pietenpol? I was planning on using an A65 or even C85 for power, any advantage there? Am I dreaming the impossible dream, or could I pull it off with all that mass in the back? I have a Cessna Cardinal that is big and roomy, but I really have always wanted to build a wood and fabric plane, and the Pietenpol seemed like the right answer to me. Any hope, or am I doomed to spam cans? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ToySat(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Control pulleys
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Hi Bill: I'm putting a nearly 3" pulley on mine but I 'm not that far yet. Have a friend that has one on his and the result is a lighter touch to the stick and less wear all around. Ryder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BRIAN AND DONNA
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Aug 30, 1999
please delete me from the list thank you ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Atnip <davida@mo-net.com>
Subject: Re: How heavy is too heavy??
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Hi Gary, I weigh 260 lb. an am 6'2" tall. I have no problem in flying my Piet, except that it is very tiring for a long trip, but i have heard this also from most of the rest of the group... Dave Gary Meadows wrote: > Hi all, > I've been reading with great interest the posts from the past 4 days, and > learning a lot about this wonderful aircraft. But, I have a question for > y'all (from Texas!) that I was wondering about: > I weigh about 250 lbs, and that being the case, is it still advisable for me > to entertain thoughts of building a Pietenpol? I was planning on using an > A65 or even C85 for power, any advantage there? > Am I dreaming the impossible dream, or could I pull it off with all that > mass in the back? I have a Cessna Cardinal that is big and roomy, but I > really have always wanted to build a wood and fabric plane, and the > Pietenpol seemed like the right answer to me. Any hope, or am I doomed to > spam cans? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How heavy is too heavy??
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Dave, That is certainly good news on the weight thing. I had read a quote from somone that was 230 lbs and it sounded like he was a little tail heavy ;-) I was concerned about the width too, I'm a little wider than you since I'm only about 5' 10", & 250, but we're not that different, so I think I may be able to do this! I ordered a book on wood aircraft, a bag of sticks, and some T-88 from AS&S today, I'm gonna play with gluing some, and just play with it a little, and I think I'll order the full plans set in a few days and get to work. I always loved building R/C models, this should be even more rewarding! By the way, after cross countries in my Cardinal, I feel a bit tired too! About 3 hours at a stretch is about all I can handle without a break. I had a 150 before the 177, and man after 3 hours in that thing, I felt like I needed to go in traction! I do bet the open cockpit is more tiring, but man what a way to go! Randall - Thanks for sharing your information also, it's good to see that two wide bodies can fly at the same time in the Piet. I'll bet the front seat ingress was quite a site to behold! Maybe I'm not the only economy size pilot out there after all! I like to think of it as "full figured" ala Jane Russell! (Well, not exactly!) Thanks again for the info everybody, this has really helped my decision. I'm gonna build a 2'X 2' box to see how it feels, but I think I'll be okay. Maybe I need to go out and sit in it for an hour or two, (making appropriate airplane noises, with a floor fan blowing in my face), and see how stiff I get! Many Thanks, Gary Meadows ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Myers
Subject: Re: How heavy is too heavy??
Date: Aug 31, 1999
GARY; I WEIGH (AT TIMES) UP TO 240 AND HAVE FLOWN IN PIETS AT THAT WEIGHT. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS MOVE THE WING BACK TO COMPENSATE. DON'T GIVE UP AS THIS IS A VERSITILE AIRPLANE! A LITTLE PUSH BACK FROM THE DINNER TABLE HELPS TOO. THAT WILL HINDER YOU FROM GETTING INTO YOUR OWN FRONT COCKPIT...ER...FLITE DECK ALTO I GOT IN BOTH PITS AT 240/245 & 6'-2"...... IT IS TIGHT! I BUILT MY SCOUT A BIT WIDER TO ACCEPT ME (245 AT THAT TIME, 225 NOW). GO FOR IT! EARL MYERS -----Original Message----- From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How heavy is too heavy?? >Hi all, > I've been reading with great interest the posts from the past 4 days, and >learning a lot about this wonderful aircraft. But, I have a question for >y'all (from Texas!) that I was wondering about: >I weigh about 250 lbs, and that being the case, is it still advisable for me >to entertain thoughts of building a Pietenpol? I was planning on using an >A65 or even C85 for power, any advantage there? > Am I dreaming the impossible dream, or could I pull it off with all that >mass in the back? I have a Cessna Cardinal that is big and roomy, but I >really have always wanted to build a wood and fabric plane, and the >Pietenpol seemed like the right answer to me. Any hope, or am I doomed to >spam cans? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ron Gipson <ronr(at)onlinemac.com>
Subject: Cap Strips
Date: Aug 30, 1999
Now that I have the shop and benches set up, tools in place and a nice pile of 5/4 lumber, when I re-saw the lumber into cap strips do I want verticle grain or flat grain showing on the 1/2" side? I seems to me that the verticle grain would be stronger but the flat grain certainly bends nicer. At least this question is one I know someone has a for sure answer. Thnx Ron Gipson Now that I have the shop and benches set up, tools in place and a nice pile of 5/4 lumber, when I re-saw the lumber into cap strips do I want verticle grain or flat grain showing on the 1/2" side?I seems to me that the verticle grain would be stronger but the flat grain certainly bends nicer. At least this question is one I know someone has a for sure answer. Thnx Ron Gipson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dror Kalish <dkalish(at)bgumail.bgu.ac.il>
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Aug 31, 1999
hello ! please delete me from the mailing list. thank you. Dror. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: berenshtein michael <mberen(at)ee.bgu.ac.il>
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Aug 31, 1999
hello ! please unsubscribe me from you mailing list. thank you, Michael. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Shutic, Jeff" <jshutic(at)nordson.com>
Subject: RE: How heavy is too heavy??
Date: Aug 31, 1999
I'm 6'-2", 250 lbs., and building a "wide body" Pietenpol. The fuselage is widened by 2". What a difference! If you would like more information, give me a call sometime in the evening at 440-965-4677. (no computer at the house) -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How heavy is too heavy?? Hi all, I've been reading with great interest the posts from the past 4 days, and learning a lot about this wonderful aircraft. But, I have a question for y'all (from Texas!) that I was wondering about: I weigh about 250 lbs, and that being the case, is it still advisable for me to entertain thoughts of building a Pietenpol? I was planning on using an A65 or even C85 for power, any advantage there? Am I dreaming the impossible dream, or could I pull it off with all that mass in the back? I have a Cessna Cardinal that is big and roomy, but I really have always wanted to build a wood and fabric plane, and the Pietenpol seemed like the right answer to me. Any hope, or am I doomed to spam cans? charsetwindows-1252"> 5.5.2448.0"> RE: How heavy is too heavy?? I'm 6'-2, 250 lbs., and building a wide body Pietenpol. The fuselage is widened by 2. What a difference! If you would like more information, give me a call sometime in the evening at 440-965-4677. (no computer at the house) -----Original Message----- From: Gary Meadows [ Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:46 PM To: Pietenpol Discussion Subject: Pietenpol-List: How heavy is too heavy?? Hi all, I've been reading with great interest the posts from the past 4 days, and learning a lot about this wonderful aircraft. But, I have a question for y'all (from Texas!) that I was wondering about: I weigh about 250 lbs, and that being the case, is it still advisable for me to entertain thoughts of building a Pietenpol? I was planning on using an A65 or even C85 for power, any advantage there? Am I dreaming the impossible dream, or could I pull it off with all that mass in the back? I have a Cessna Cardinal that is big and roomy, but I really have always wanted to build a wood and fabric plane, and the Pietenpol seemed like the right answer to me. Any hope, or am I doomed to spam cans? Get Your Private, Free Email at HREF"http://www.hotmail.com" TARGET"_blank">http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conrad, Bart D"
Subject: CONTROL COLUMN PULLEY P/N'S
Date: Aug 31, 1999
I am getting ready to order the materials for the control column. Does anyone have a recommended part number for the three pulleys? I am thinking of using a 3 inch pulley on the forward end, based on piet discussion comments from yesterday. Many of the pulleys in the supplier catalogs AS & S say...shall not be installed on frequently used aircraft controls to bend the cable more than 15 degrees from a straight line. Thanks, Bart Bart D Conrad Boeing Field Service DC-9/MD-80/DC-10 & 737 Heavy Mtc Phone: 713-640-5882/713-324-4192 Fax: 713-640-5891 Pager: 713-318-1625 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: CONTROL COLUMN PULLEY P/N'S
Date: Aug 31, 1999
>I am getting ready to order the materials for the control column. Bart- Many guys have used the pulley sizes spec'd out on the Piet plans with no problems......but one tip here: use galvanized cable not stainless. The wise older IA who runs our airport told me all the brace cables can be stainless but anything that will move or go round a pulley should be galvanized. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Burroughs <glenn(at)sysweb.com>
Subject: Re: Wood List for Fuselage?
Date: Aug 31, 1999
>Glenn, > If you get one, post it. It may be a good idea to post it to the >Aircamper website. Do you have a list for the wings? Hi Joe, Attached is the list that I have so far. I understand someone has posted a list to the aircamper.com web site. Glenn Pietenpol Wood List Fuselage 1" x 1" x 15' 4 pieces 1" x 1" x 6' 1 piece 1" x 1" x 5' 1 piece 7/8" x 1" x 8' 2 pieces 7/8" x 1" x 6' 1 piece 3/4" x 1" x 8' 4 pieces 3/4" x 1" x 3' 1 piece 1/2" x 1" x 6' 5 pieces 5/8" x 1" x 5' 1 piece White ash 1" x 2 =BC" x 2' 1 piece (engine support) 2" x 2 =BC" x 2' 1 piece (engine support) =BE" x 2" x 4' 1 piece (floor struts) Wing 1" x 4 3/4" x 14' 4 pieces 1" x 4 3/4" x 29" 2 pieces 1/2" x 3" x 7' 4 pieces 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 7' 2 pieces 3/4" x 3/4" x 5' 4 pieces 1/2" x 1/2" x 7' 4 pieces 500' of capstrip 1/4" x 1/4" for up to 65hp. Tail 1" x 1" x 8' 2 pieces


August 20, 1999 - August 31, 1999

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bc