Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-be
September 08, 1999 - September 16, 1999
> Do you know sources for the above?
> Which of these have worked well or not so well?
>
> Thank you,
> Marc Davis
>
>
"the Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient"
_______
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe; |
In the past three months I have been trying different ISP's I have
subscribed and unsubscribed 3 times easy with just the email method that I
posted on this list and asked everybody to please save it. A No Brainer.
Because people will not save instructions it makes our Stevie work hard. Now
we don't our Stevie to get sweaty all the time.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 12:29 PM
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe; |
> Hello
> I unsubscribe for the 2 weeks while I was gone to Brodhead and was able to
> resubscribe once I got home.
> Mike Madrid
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 11:18 AM
> Subject: Unsubscribe;
>
>
> I do NOT wish to unsubscribe, but after all the trouble some are having
> I tried to go to http://aircamper.orgMailingList.cfm in the event that
> one day I may wish to unsubscribe. It came back"cannot locate". I
> think we are here for ever and ever, like Charlie in the old Kingston
> Trio song. Doomed to ride the Boston MTA train forever. L.S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Has anyone contacted Grant ref seriously taking over the
newsletter ?? Just curious.
Mike C.
(ps...I'm not your guy on this one :)))))
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Unsubscribe; |
Thanks Gordon. Just FYI, I had to spend over an hour a day for nearly a
week to catch up after the big shows. If those who wish to unsubscribe
would take care of their own, it would greatly relieve my time spent
administering.
Thanks to all of you who (are now gone) and I didn't have to do anything.
Steve Eldredge
IT Services
Brigham Young University
> -----Original Message-----
> Gordon Brimhall
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 2:13 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Unsubscribe;
>
>
> In the past three months I have been trying different ISP's I have
> subscribed and unsubscribed 3 times easy with just the email
> method that I
> posted on this list and asked everybody to please save it. A
> No Brainer.
>
> Because people will not save instructions it makes our Stevie
> work hard. Now
> we don't our Stevie to get sweaty all the time.
>
> Gordon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Madrid
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Unsubscribe;
>
>
> > Hello
> > I unsubscribe for the 2 weeks while I was gone to Brodhead
> and was able to
> > resubscribe once I got home.
> > Mike Madrid
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 11:18 AM
> > Subject: Unsubscribe;
> >
> >
> > I do NOT wish to unsubscribe, but after all the trouble
> some are having
> > I tried to go to http://aircamper.orgMailingList.cfm in
> the event that
> > one day I may wish to unsubscribe. It came back"cannot locate". I
> > think we are here for ever and ever, like Charlie in the
> old Kingston
> > Trio song. Doomed to ride the Boston MTA train forever. L.S.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
You must have mistyped the horsepower also, as you
typed 65 hp. where as the corvair is actually 100hp
making the hp per weight ratio much more
attractive.also keeping the prop smaller has its
advantages too.
---Copinfo wrote:
>
>
> -Terry- You're right. I did mean to say Corvair
but my typing fingers
> went wild. I might also add that Continental
Engines add more value to the
> final product. Everyone knows the safety record of
the Piet & the
> Continentals. The Corvair record just isn't there
for me.
> Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
> Tim Cunningham
> Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate
any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,
or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or
what relation the person has to certifications.
I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging
for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.
Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these
discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.
Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something
out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....
....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .
Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?
---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7
/--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
|scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
=======
Dick Dery wrote:
=======
Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt, as
long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.
As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the
service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being paid
to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that
the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The FAA
doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an
aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing as
being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be
PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.
========
David Scott wrote:
========
This is a quick note -->
Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).
The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying an experimental,
however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:
and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.
But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.
The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge --> consequences could
be legally
devastating.
Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation
David Scott
CFII
REF: 14CFR91.319
----------------------
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]
[Revised as of January 1, 1999]
>From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 14CFR91.319]
[Page 219-220]
CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents
Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
safety in air commerce.
(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate shall--
(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
aircraft;
(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
authorized by the Administrator; and
(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
operating control towers.
(e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
Administrator considers necessary, including
[[Page 220]]
limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
2120-0005)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
thanks for the feedback on the brake-----I wasen't the one with the slick manuals-
in fact I'd like to have on myself. I also purchased two of those $15 mags
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
"William C. Beerman" wrote:
> Joe,
> I think that was me; see attached message. Was it you who offered the Slick
> mag overhaul manuals earlier? I'm still interested if you have any
> left!
>
> Thanks,
> -Bill Beerman
>
> > Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:35:46 -0500
> > From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
> > Subject: brake
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > MIME-version: 1.0
> > Comments: Originally To: "Pietenpol Discussion"
> > X-Listname:
> >
> > hey group---I may have been dreaming (or wishing) several weeks/months
> > ago was there mention here on the list of someone who built a home-made
> > metal brake??
> > seems like it was made of 2x4s and angle iron and they offered sketches
> > to anyone interested......well I'm interested,,if it's available please
> > respond....
> > thanks in advance
> > JoeC
> > Zion, Illinois
> >
> >
>
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:28:43 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)bbt.com>
> Subject: Metal bending press
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Comments: Originally To: "Pietenpol Discussion"
> X-Listname:
>
> Thanks to the graciousness of Mr. DeCosta, I have been able to post a few pics
> of the metal bending press I built at "http://www.AirCamper.org/users/beerman".
> Plese feel free to look at and criticize. It was cheap to build (my steel
> came from a local scrapyard), and I'm able to put decent bends in 4 1/2"
> wide x 0.90" 4130 (for my rudder / elevator hinge blanks). Everything was
> MIG welded except for the bronze bushings, which I brazed. Maybe some
> day I'll even sandblast and paint it so it ain't quite so ugly. Meanwhile,
> on with the Pietenpol building!
>
> ----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com |
| Subject: | RE: Unsubscribe, administrative work, etc., miscellaneous; |
Related - sort of - work to be done - did anyone raise their hand to edit the
newsletter? Did Grant change his mind and decide to edit for another ten
years? If there is no one else excited to do this I could probably fit it
into my schedule assuming that information, ideas, and some articles are
forthcoming from others as well.
Are there soft copies of some/any/all of past newsletters? How many must be
put together for mailing? A lot could/should be pirated from this list and
printed for many who are not addicts of the internet?????
Comments?
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet wannabee |
are there going to be any piets at osceola wi on sat
9/11 at the wheels and wings fly in? I would sure
like to see one fly! better yet I would like to fly
in one!
---Leon Stefan wrote:
>
> Gary M:..Charter a Lear Jet along with other Piet
people in the South
> Texas area, and fly to Benton Ks. Sat. Sept.11.
Make sure the Lear is
> Y2K compliant. Phase one of the y2k bug is due on
9-9-99.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A ride with Robert H. |
Mike, I live in liberty co. (northeast of Houston). Don't have a Piet yet,
but would love to come to a flyin if I'm not working. I'll drive if I have
to. So put me on your mailing list too.- James McFarland
phone - 409-258-5831
> From: Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: A ride with Robert H.
> Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 11:45 AM
>
> Gang,
>
> I had the opportunity to drive from Dallas to Uvalde,
> Texas to visit with GN-1 owner Robert Hensarling.
>
> The weather that day had crosswinds and low ceilings
> hanging over the airport. Being a couple hundred
> pounds each, Robert decided to keep the GN-1 in the
> hanger.....so a flight in Robert's Rans was in order.
>
> It was my first time in a Rans and was a hoot. I was
> impressed with the performance of the Rotax 2 cycle
> engine.....climbing out at 70 mph. As soon as we took
> off, a King Air made a practice instrument approach, so
> we circled around the nearby foothills of the Texas Hill
> Country. It was a great Sunday morning ride that ended
> a few minutes later with a perfect soft landing on the
> Uvalde asphalt runway.
>
> As far as the GN-1 is concerned, Robert wants
> to replace his 6 x 6.00 aircraft tires with spoked
> wheels. It is a good looking airplane and has
> several hours under its belt. I understand he might
> sell the plane and buy a "true Piet" complete with
> Model A engine, spoked wheels, etc.
>
> Anyway, Robert and I would like to contact present
> GN-1 and PIET owners/pilots in Texas for a Texas fly-in
> now that the weather is under 100 degrees. A fall get
> together would be fun. Depending on the number of planes
> and where they are located, we then can determine a
> convenient central location.
>
> Please contact us as soon as possible for a good old
> Lone Star State fly in and barbque.
>
> Mike King
> GN-1
> 77MK
> Dallas, Texas
> (214) 905-9299
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Del, Come to Des Moines and I'll be happy to give you a ride in a Piet. I
still have to go to Broadhead and I might do that this weekend if you want a
ride there. Heck, I'll fly to your house if you have 1000 feet to land on.
The Corvair is 110 hp at 3800 rpm. The prop I had on my Corvair was a Hegy
66 X 60. You need a smaller prop to get the full rpm to develope 110 hp.
What you end up with after all the math is done is an effective 65 hp
engine. The problem is you have the extra weight and still have to run at a
high rpm. I think Don Pietenpol or Vitalis Kapler may have a booklet that
explains the plus and minus' of the Corvair. They do run smooth and sound
good but they're not for me. I sold mine with the prop for a $1000.00 and
bought a Continental. Love it.
>You must have mistyped the horsepower also, as you
>typed 65 hp. where as the corvair is actually 100hp
>making the hp per weight ratio much more
>attractive.also keeping the prop smaller has its
>advantages too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet Newsletter |
Mike, I think you'd be perfect for the newsletter editor. I made the smoke
system you posted and it works great. My exhaust pipes had an aluminum
coating on that I had to grind down to make the pipe weldable, but it just
works super. The local crop dusters use Corvis oil and I purchase it from
them for little or nothing. Do you have any problems with people thinking
you're in trouble? Some people think I'm going down in flames. Oh well.
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>Has anyone contacted Grant ref seriously taking over the
>newsletter ?? Just curious.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
>(ps...I'm not your guy on this one :)))))
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig L.Hanson" <chanson(at)polar.polarcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Building Center |
I bought a piece of sitka from the building center and it was ok to use.
The rings were just at a 45 degree angle on one end of the board. I looked
at many more pieces and that was the only one that I would use.
Craig Hanson
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 6:02 PM
> has anybody else had experience with getting sitka
> from oshkosh home center? I also have local source
> where I can buy c and better sitka, and they will let
> me pick thru it. where can I look to get the specs on
> aircraft quality lumber. or would it be better to
> just pay the extra bucks and be on the safe side?
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Goodyear wheels/brakes |
Regarding the recent mention of a set of Goodyear wheels for a cheap
offering price. A word of caution. I had goodyear wheels, (original
equipment) on a 1949 Piper Clipper. They were not the greatest; the
brake design features an "expander tube" system. That is a rubber tube
doughnut that expands outward against the shoes, forcing them against
the drum. One of mine ruptured and as of 1987 they were impossible to
replace. I replaced the wheels with a set of Cleveland disc brakes and
the results were outstanding. The point is if a person wants to have
brakes then the advertised set does not appear to be a bargain. Lou
Larsen
Regarding the recent mention of a set
of Goodyear
wheels for a cheap offering price. A word of caution.
I had
goodyear wheels, (original equipment) on a 1949 Piper Clipper.
They were
not the greatest; the brake design features an "expander tube"
system.
That is a rubber tube doughnut that expands outward against the shoes,
forcing
them against the drum. One of mine ruptured and as of 1987
they were
impossible to replace. I replaced the wheels with a set of
Cleveland disc
brakes and the results were outstanding. The point is if a
person
wants to have brakes then the advertised setdoes not appear to be
a
bargain. Lou Larsen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Unsubscribe, administrative work, etc., miscellaneous; |
I vote for Mike Bell for editor.
Arden Adamson
> -----Original Message-----
> mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 5:14 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: RE: Unsubscribe, administrative work, etc., miscellaneous;
>
>
> Related - sort of - work to be done - did anyone raise their hand
> to edit the
> newsletter? Did Grant change his mind and decide to edit for
> another ten
> years? If there is no one else excited to do this I could
> probably fit it
> into my schedule assuming that information, ideas, and some articles are
> forthcoming from others as well.
>
> Are there soft copies of some/any/all of past newsletters?
> How many must be
> put together for mailing? A lot could/should be pirated from
> this list and
> printed for many who are not addicts of the internet?????
>
> Comments?
>
> Mike Bell
> Columbia, SC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Ragan <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe; |
Make sure to hand Charlie a sandwich, as the train comes rumblin through!!
>From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Unsubscribe;
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 13:15:58 -0500 (CDT)
>
>I do NOT wish to unsubscribe, but after all the trouble some are having
>I tried to go to http://aircamper.orgMailingList.cfm in the event that
>one day I may wish to unsubscribe. It came back"cannot locate". I
>think we are here for ever and ever, like Charlie in the old Kingston
>Trio song. Doomed to ride the Boston MTA train forever. L.S.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Ragan <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet Newsletter |
RICHARD???????
>From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Piet Newsletter
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:27:00 -0400
>
>Has anyone contacted Grant ref seriously taking over the
>newsletter ?? Just curious.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
>(ps...I'm not your guy on this one :)))))
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Ragan <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Unsubscribe, administrative work, etc., miscellaneous; |
Never mind Richard. Thanks Mike. A lot of us lack the ability to maintain
this sort of thing, but you can count on me for grunt work, or any other
help that I might lend.
>From: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com
>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: RE: Unsubscribe, administrative work, etc., miscellaneous;
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:14:15 -0400
>
>Related - sort of - work to be done - did anyone raise their hand to edit
>the
>newsletter? Did Grant change his mind and decide to edit for another ten
>years? If there is no one else excited to do this I could probably fit it
>into my schedule assuming that information, ideas, and some articles are
>forthcoming from others as well.
>
>Are there soft copies of some/any/all of past newsletters? How many
>must be
>put together for mailing? A lot could/should be pirated from this list
>and
>printed for many who are not addicts of the internet?????
>
>Comments?
>
>Mike Bell
>Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe; |
" he will ride forever 'neath the the streets of Boston....he's the man who
never returns"
walt
ps not to mention " back to back , belly to belly"
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Ragan <lragan(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 10:15 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Unsubscribe;
>Make sure to hand Charlie a sandwich, as the train comes rumblin through!!
>
>
>>From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Subject: Unsubscribe;
>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 13:15:58 -0500 (CDT)
>>
>>I do NOT wish to unsubscribe, but after all the trouble some are having
>>I tried to go to http://aircamper.orgMailingList.cfm in the event that
>>one day I may wish to unsubscribe. It came back"cannot locate". I
>>think we are here for ever and ever, like Charlie in the old Kingston
>>Trio song. Doomed to ride the Boston MTA train forever. L.S.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Ragan <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
I get an undeliverable e-mail notice when I tried the listed address for
Keri-Ann Price. Any suggestions.
>From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Re: Entry Door
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:04:28 -0600
>
>These plans are now available from Keri-Ann Price.
>Her e-mail address is:
>gprice(at)javanet.com
>
>Greg
>
> >>> John Duprey 09/02 11:50 AM >>>
>
>
>Entry door plans are available From Gary Price in North Hampton N.H. Sorry
>I misplaced his phone #
>
>John Duprey
>
>
> >
> >
> > I'm interested in the entry door!! I'd like to see what
> > others have done here.
> >
> > Mike Bell
> > Columbia, SC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Davis, Marc" on 09/01/99 08:09:32 PM
> >
> > Please respond to Pietenpol Discussion
> >
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > cc:
> > Subject:
> >
> >
> > I have some questions I hope you guy can shed some light on.
> >
> > Does anyone know of a direct drive Subaru EA81 Peat? What kind
> > of
> > performance?
> >
> > Over and above the 1933 plans what are the other Peat addendum
> > available and
> > what are the sources? I've head of the following:
> >
> > Builders Manual
> > Building video
> > 1932 Flying and glider manual
> > Long fuselage
> > 3 piece wing
> > Steel fuselage
> > Corvair engine
> > Entry Door
> > Hinged wing section for easy entry
> >
> > Any others you guy know about?
> > Do you know sources for the above?
> > Which of these have worked well or not so well?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Marc Davis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>"the Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient"
>
>
>_______
>Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
>Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Goodyear wheels/brakes |
I agree, although it took 6 tries for the Ebay picture to come up, I'll
pass as well.
LOU LARSEN wrote:
> Regarding the recent mention of a set of Goodyear wheels for a
> cheap offering price. A word of caution. I had goodyear wheels,
> (original equipment) on a 1949 Piper Clipper. They were not the
> greatest; the brake design features an "expander tube" system. That
> is a rubber tube doughnut that expands outward against the shoes,
> forcing them against the drum. One of mine ruptured and as of 1987
> they were impossible to replace. I replaced the wheels with a set of
> Cleveland disc brakes and the results were outstanding. The point is
> if a person wants to have brakes then the advertised set does not
> appear to be a bargain. Lou Larsen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Instruction in an experimental ac. |
While hanging out at the RVan tent at Oshkosh, ( don't do "airventure")
I listened to Richard Van explain the latest push that he and his
company are involved with. He is pushing for approval to let CFI's
charge for transitional training. He says CFI's cannot charge for
instruction in an exp. aircraft. Meanwhile as experienced in type CFI's
are setting in the coffee shop, builder pilot with no time in type are
giving themselves their check-outs, some with disastrous results.
Instructors can't give their time away for free, and Exp. pilots can't
legally pay them. This is for transitional training only, not for
general pilot training. You can tell I'm on vacation this week. I'm
spending too #### much time with this stupid key board! Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
David,
I guess I don't see how 91.319 prohibits a flight instructor from being
paid for his services in a Pietenpol. The "for compensation or hire" refers
to providing transportation of passengers, or property. This was dealt with
in all the Commercial Pilot Certificatef we had to learn, "holding yourself
out for hire" and all that. An instrucional flight doesn't have this as it's
purpose. A CFI isn't being paid to be PIC, just to instruct.
I don't see the hard facts in 91.319 for preventing paid instruction in an
experimental. I do agree however, it's very wise to investigate for
yourself, things that you see on discussion groups.
Now, as for Berea, isn't that the tarpits in southern California:-)
Gary Meadows
Agreeing to Disagree:-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Hey Copinfo,
I went to the Corvair engine-mod website that Del is talking about. This
fellow, William Wynne maybe it is, has both Del and myself all excited cause
he claims to be getting 100HP out of the Corvair at 3200 rpm! He has a
different cam he sells for $299, but I'm starting to wonder about it - hard
to believe a cam could change the power curve that much. I wonder if anyone
out there has tried these mods on a Corvair engine in their Piet? Well, here
is what he says:
HP...........................100@3200 rpm
HP (Continuous)...............90@3000 rpm
Torque............. 160 ft/lbs. @2800 rpm
I like the Continentals a lot, but this being a scroungers type airplane, I
guess I'm kind of caught up in this mode, and don't want to go to a
certificated engine. That don't mean I won't, but I just don't want to.
Still in all wouldn't a Corvair still give better performance than the Ford
"A"?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instruction in an experimental ac. |
David & Leon,
It sure wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about the regs. I guess it
just goes to show that you should be over-conservative in any interpretation
of the FARs! Oh well, I won't have to worry about it till next spring, when
I finish my CFI.
Honestly, I can't imagine myself charging a person to transition them into
a plane that they built with their own hands - just doesn't seem right! Of
course, I won't be making my living instructing, so I can say that.
Cheers all,
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve wrote:
I sent the person that has the entry door plans and got an email error on
her email address. Could someone please send me these plans??
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A ride with Robert H. |
James,
You are now on the list. Will keep all those who
have responded informed.
Thanks again.
Mike K.
Dallas
>Mike, I live in liberty co. (northeast of Houston). Don't have a Piet yet,
>but would love to come to a flyin if I'm not working. I'll drive if I have
>to. So put me on your mailing list too.- James McFarland
>
>phone - 409-258-5831
>
>----------
>> From: Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net>
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> Subject: A ride with Robert H.
>> Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 11:45 AM
>>
>> Gang,
>>
>> I had the opportunity to drive from Dallas to Uvalde,
>> Texas to visit with GN-1 owner Robert Hensarling.
>>
>> The weather that day had crosswinds and low ceilings
>> hanging over the airport. Being a couple hundred
>> pounds each, Robert decided to keep the GN-1 in the
>> hanger.....so a flight in Robert's Rans was in order.
>>
>> It was my first time in a Rans and was a hoot. I was
>> impressed with the performance of the Rotax 2 cycle
>> engine.....climbing out at 70 mph. As soon as we took
>> off, a King Air made a practice instrument approach, so
>> we circled around the nearby foothills of the Texas Hill
>> Country. It was a great Sunday morning ride that ended
>> a few minutes later with a perfect soft landing on the
>> Uvalde asphalt runway.
>>
>> As far as the GN-1 is concerned, Robert wants
>> to replace his 6 x 6.00 aircraft tires with spoked
>> wheels. It is a good looking airplane and has
>> several hours under its belt. I understand he might
>> sell the plane and buy a "true Piet" complete with
>> Model A engine, spoked wheels, etc.
>>
>> Anyway, Robert and I would like to contact present
>> GN-1 and PIET owners/pilots in Texas for a Texas fly-in
>> now that the weather is under 100 degrees. A fall get
>> together would be fun. Depending on the number of planes
>> and where they are located, we then can determine a
>> convenient central location.
>>
>> Please contact us as soon as possible for a good old
>> Lone Star State fly in and barbque.
>>
>> Mike King
>> GN-1
>> 77MK
>> Dallas, Texas
>> (214) 905-9299
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
<< I went to the Corvair engine-mod website that Del is talking about. This
fellow, William Wynne maybe it is, has both Del and myself all excited cause
he claims to be getting 100HP out of the Corvair at 3200 rpm! He has a
different cam he sells for $299 >>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
<< I went to the Corvair engine-mod website that Del is talking about. This
fellow, William Wynne maybe it is, has both Del and myself all excited cause
he claims to be getting 100HP out of the Corvair at 3200 rpm! He has a
different cam he sells for $299 >>
William Wynne said to me that the cam would not make much difference with a
high drag airplane that didn't need the extra HP and extra $$.
Sorry about the last post my fingers are too quick.
William
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
David,
FAR 91.319 (a) (3) states that an experimental airplane may not be operated carrying
passengers
or property for hire. It does not state that an instructor can't charge for his
time. As long as
the airplanes is not being used for hire, a commercial pilot/instructor can charge
for his time.
Charging for instruction, charging for test flying and charging for ferrying an
airplane are not
necessarily operating an airplane for hire!
David Scott wrote:
> This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate
> any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,
> or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or
> what relation the person has to certifications.
>
> I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging
> for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.
>
> Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these
> discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.
> Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something
> out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....
>
> ....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .
>
> Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?
>
> ---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7
>
> /--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
>
> =======
> Dick Dery wrote:
> =======
> Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt, as
> long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.
> As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the
> service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being paid
> to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that
> the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The FAA
> doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an
> aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing as
> being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be
> PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.
>
> ========
> David Scott wrote:
> ========
> This is a quick note -->
>
> Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).
>
> The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying an
experimental,
> however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:
>
>
> and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.
>
> But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.
>
> The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge --> consequences could
be legally
> devastating.
>
> Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation
>
> David Scott
> CFII
>
> REF: 14CFR91.319
> ----------------------
> [Code of Federal Regulations]
> [Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]
> [Revised as of January 1, 1999]
> >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
> [CITE: 14CFR91.319]
>
> [Page 219-220]
>
>
> CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
>
> PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents
>
>
> Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
>
> (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate--
> (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
> or
> (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
> (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
> shown that--
> (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
> speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
> (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
> design features.
> (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
> operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
> experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
> airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
> particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
> a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
> terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
> safety in air commerce.
> (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate shall--
> (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft;
> (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
> authorized by the Administrator; and
> (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
> operating control towers.
> (e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
> Administrator considers necessary, including
>
> [[Page 220]]
>
> limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
>
> (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
> 2120-0005)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Tim's Smoke in Iowa |
Tim !!!
I am glad to hear your smoke system is up and working !!!
It certainly adds another element of FUN to these already FUN
airplanes. The guys at my airport know when I've been out
smoking people because upon my return I have no smoke oil
left to show them ! So far I have not conerned anyone that
I know of....and mostly just tell them that if they see white smoke
that's good, if they see black smoke that's bad :))
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Instruction in an experimental ac. |
The exemption that the EAA is trying to get is to allow owners to rent
their aircraft for transition training. That IS operation for hire.
Leon Stefan wrote:
> While hanging out at the RVan tent at Oshkosh, ( don't do "airventure")
> I listened to Richard Van explain the latest push that he and his
> company are involved with. He is pushing for approval to let CFI's
> charge for transitional training. He says CFI's cannot charge for
> instruction in an exp. aircraft. Meanwhile as experienced in type CFI's
> are setting in the coffee shop, builder pilot with no time in type are
> giving themselves their check-outs, some with disastrous results.
> Instructors can't give their time away for free, and Exp. pilots can't
> legally pay them. This is for transitional training only, not for
> general pilot training. You can tell I'm on vacation this week. I'm
> spending too #### much time with this stupid key board! Leon S.
--
David B.Schober, CPE
Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
Fairmont State College
National Aerospace Education Center
1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive
Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
(304) 842-8300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instruction in an experimental ac. |
After all the discussion I've read on the list I just had a thought. I
wonder if the FAA has ever made a judicial decision on this matter? Is
there precedence? Because until its been judicial decided and appealed it
really hasn't been interpreted.
Just my .15875 cents worth.(after inflation)
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 11:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Instruction in an experimental ac.
While hanging out at the RVan tent at Oshkosh, ( don't do "airventure")
I listened to Richard Van explain the latest push that he and his
company are involved with. He is pushing for approval to let CFI's
charge for transitional training. He says CFI's cannot charge for
instruction in an exp. aircraft. Meanwhile as experienced in type CFI's
are setting in the coffee shop, builder pilot with no time in type are
giving themselves their check-outs, some with disastrous results.
Instructors can't give their time away for free, and Exp. pilots can't
legally pay them. This is for transitional training only, not for
general pilot training. You can tell I'm on vacation this week. I'm
spending too #### much time with this stupid key board! Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marvin L. Stovall" |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
I believe that flight instruction charges have nothing to do with
airplane charges. Why would an instructor charge you for the you using
your own airplane? You are not paying for the use of your airplane,
only the professional services of the instructor.
walter evans wrote:
> Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | wheels,brakes,and tires |
just getting ready to weld up a landing gear for my
peit, and was wondering what is being done when one
wants to use 6 or 8 inch wheels and tires. will I
need to use a purchased threaded axle to weld onto my
landing assembly? I feel fortunate to be about 10
miles away from andrew peitenpol, who is currantly
building an aircamper using a 65 continental.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Coates <coatez(at)hotmail.com> |
I noticed some talk about a smoke system and wanted to know where I can
get some info on building one, for the someday that may finish my
"piet".
thanks
Chris
I noticed some talk about a smoke
system and wanted
to know where I can get some info on building one, for the someday that
may
finish my "piet".
thanks
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: smoke system |
>
> I noticed some talk about a smoke system and wanted to know where I can get
> some info on building one, for the someday that may finish my "piet".
> thanks
> Chris
Chris- I'm trying to dig out a long dissertation I wrote up months
ago on how I installed this system on my 65 Cont. Standby a few
days and if I can't find it I'll just re-write it over.
Thanks,
Mike C.
I noticed some talk
about a smoke system and wanted to know where I can get some info on
building one, for the someday that may finish my
piet.
thanks
Chris
Chris- I'm trying to dig out a long dissertation I wrote up months
ago on how I installed this system on my 65 Cont. Standby a
few
days and if I can't find it I'll just re-write it over.
Thanks,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com> |
Larry Ragan wrote:
>
> I get an undeliverable e-mail notice when I tried the listed address for
> Keri-Ann Price. Any suggestions.
Larry Call Information for the (603) Area code and get a listing for
Gary or Keri-Ann Price in North Hampton N.H.
John Duprey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | Message Archives |
Where did those archives of this list end up?
Marc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Gary Wrote:
William Wynne claims to be getting 100HP out of the Corvair at 3200 rpm! He
has a
>different cam he sells for $299, but I'm starting to wonder about it - hard
>to believe a cam could change the power curve that much. >
>Still in all wouldn't a Corvair still give better performance than the Ford
>"A"?
Gary, my Corvair sounded great and would develope more than enough horse
power to fly two people. The Model A people will probably tell you the
same. I've seen a lot of Corvairs and Model A's parked along the road
during their hey days and I wouldn't go in the air with either. I guarantee
a cam difference is not going to give that kind of improvement in horse
power at 3200 rpm. I'd check with someone who isn't selling something. How
many hours does he have in the air at 3200 rpm with that engine? I know
what it's like to try to save money but the engine is a good place to
splurge.
Good Luck
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marvin L. Stovall" |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
I don't believe it matters if the instructor owns the airplane or not, as long
as he doesn't
charge for the plane, just the instruction.
"David B. Schober" wrote:
> David,
> I beg to differ. An instructor is free to charge fairly for his time. If he doesn't
own the
> airplane, and is only providing instruction, the flight is not "carrying persons
for hire".
>
> David Scott wrote:
>
> > This is a quick note -->
> >
> > Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).
> >
> > The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying an
experimental,
> > however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:
> >
> >
> > and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.
> >
> > But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.
> >
> > The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge --> consequences
could be legally
> > devastating.
> >
> > Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation
> >
> > David Scott
> > CFII
> >
> > ---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7
> >
> > /--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
> > |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
> >
> > REF: 14CFR91.319
> > ----------------------
> > [Code of Federal Regulations]
> > [Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]
> > [Revised as of January 1, 1999]
> > >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
> > [CITE: 14CFR91.319]
> >
> > [Page 219-220]
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
> >
> > PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents
> >
> >
> > Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
> >
> > (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> > certificate--
> > (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
> > or
> > (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
> > (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> > certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
> > shown that--
> > (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
> > speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
> > (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
> > design features.
> > (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
> > operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
> > experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
> > airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
> > particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
> > a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
> > terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
> > safety in air commerce.
> > (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
> > certificate shall--
> > (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
> > aircraft;
> > (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
> > authorized by the Administrator; and
> > (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
> > aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
> > operating control towers.
> > (e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
> > Administrator considers necessary, including
> >
> > [[Page 220]]
> >
> > limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
> >
> > (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
> > 2120-0005)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FW: Piet Archive Download instructions |
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet Archive Download instructions
The piet archives are zipped into two files about 3 meg a piece. For now
they are located at http://www.aircamper.org/users/Stevee/
PIET1.zip
piet2.zip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: smoke system |
This is what Mike Sent Me on Smoke.
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
I welded a 1/4" Swaglok (stainless) female fitting to one of my
rear cyl. exhaust stacks
about 1 or 2 " down from the flange. THEN drilled two no. 60 drill
holes thru the fitting into the stack. This is where the smoke oil will
be pumped into the stack- you get good smoke because the back cyl. pipe
runs a little hotter and up high on the stack you get good heat too. I
then connected a length of 1/4" stainless tubing to that female Swaglok
fitting about 6" long. (you could get away with copper or mild steel
here too I would say.) Then I coupled that to some rubber hose w/ hose
clamps to dampen the vibration of the engine so it wouldn't fatigue that
welded fitting and steel supply line. This short, about 3" long, piece
of rubber hose can then be used to couple more 1/4" tubing back to your
cockpit area. At this point you could use alum. steel, copper, or hard
walled poly tubing- the Eastman type you see in supply books typically
used for running airspeed lines, etc. in wings I went to Wal-Mart and
bought a 40 oz or so pump up bug sprayer poly bottle for about 10 $ and
connected my tubing to that with various simple fittings found at any
hardware store. Some of my fittings are just clamped with ty-wraps
tightly. To buy oil in your area you need to call 800-782-7852 and ask
them for a local Texaco oil distributor
near you. Get several of these numbers from them and then call each
vendor and ask them specifically if they carry or can order you 5 gallon
pails of Canopus No. 13 oil. It is also known as product code 519. Most
will tell you they can only get the 55 gal. drums but that is not true
as I have gotten the 5 gallon sizes but it had to be ordered and took a
few weeks to come in. A good price is between 23 and 30$ for the 5
gallons. There may be other oils good for smoke too but the stuff I'm
telling you about is what all the airshow and aerobatic folks use. It is
basically a highly refined paraffinic mineral oil.
I have heard of people trying to use small electric pumps to deliver
the oil but have not heard what the results were. The bug sprayer is
simple and just requires some time to pump up. You want to pick up a
sprayer that is small enough to rest beside you in the cockpit so you
can re-pressurize it after a smoke run or two. Some of those sprayers
take too many pumps to pressurize- I picked the Better Homes and Garden
poly sprayer for $6.44 and it works very well. The reason for the small
drill holes is that they will eventually open up some with oxidation and
wear but really you want them small so you don't just go thru all your
oil in 2 seconds ! You can always enlarge those holes or hole if it
proves to be too little flow. The opposite end of the spectrum is that
if the holes are too big you'll pump more oil thru than can be vaporized
and the unspent oil will end up all over your gear legs and belly. This
is also true when using smoke at low power settings- not hot enough to
vaporize the oil fully. Robert Hensarling just got done putting a system
on his GN-1. You might want to see if he has any new or different tips
to offer. He's on the group.
Happy smoking !!
Mike C.
Mike- Swaglok is a trade name for a patented type of compression
type
fitting. You don't have to use the swagelok- any fitting that can be
welded onto
your exhaust stack and then connected to your plumbing will work.
The key
thing is to keep those pinholes small....the drill holes that go
thru your stack
wall. You can always enlarge those holes if you find the smoke not
adequate.
Hope this helps,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Although not a Corvair, I was quite suprised when I drove my parents'
Subaru Loyale automatic. It was complete with a tach. At 110 kph (65 mph)
the engine turned at 4100 rpm. This was also the rpm that the aviation
version turned at cruise. Remember, a lot of these smaller, low powered
engines turn a lot faster than the old V8's.
Ken
On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Copinfo wrote:
> Gary Wrote:
> power at 3200 rpm. I'd check with someone who isn't selling something. How
> many hours does he have in the air at 3200 rpm with that engine? I know
> what it's like to try to save money but the engine is a good place to
> splurge.
> Good Luck
> Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
> Tim Cunningham
> Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COZYPILOT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
to be on the safe side, ask the local fsdo. Be sure to get the name of the
fed you talk to. REMEMBER CYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
One more thing about the corvair: Torque is 160 @ 2800, AND, puts out 85.6
hp at this setting. Without any special cam! This is the 110 engine. Ryder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Although this is my second project, I've never built a wing this big.
I've....
routed the spars
attached the ply for the strut fittings
dry fitted the ribs on spars ( wing is big) and squared
I guess my questions are these....
I planned to secure wing assy squared, and glue ribs, then add
compression struts, then add nose ply, then add the turnbuckles and
cabling to maintain squareness.................. is this what you guys
did?
thanks everyone,
walt
Although this is my second project,
I've never
built a wing this big.
I've....
routed the spars
attached the ply for the strut
fittings
dry fitted the ribs on spars (
wing is
big) and squared
I guess my questions are
these....
I planned to secure wing assy
squared, and glue
ribs, then add compression struts, then add nose
ply,
then add the turnbuckles and cabling to maintain
squareness.................. is
this what you guys did?
thanks everyone,
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Tim,
This has been an interesting discussion about the engines and all. I'm
sorta glad that I have some time to work this whole engine thing, before I
have to make a decision. The one thing I'm sure of is that it will be an
air-cooled something or other, so I can build the plane up a lot before that
big hurdle needs to be jumped.
My finance department has a requirement that I have something to put the
engine on before I really start a serious powerplant search. I think I'd
better listen to her on this one, and put a plane where my mouth is!
Thanks to everyone for the input!
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Walter;
This is the same sequence I used to build the 13 wing panels that I
have done thus far. After sliding the ribs on, square it up, keep it
there and start glueing ribs. It will seem way too flexible even with
compression struts. When you tighten the x wires or cable, it REALLY
gets stiff. My ribs have the extra vertical pieces that glue to the face
of the spar as opposed to those pesky little wedges under the top
capstrips.........that made a big difference in wing stiffness prior to
the x braces...............
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 9:42 PM
Subject: building wings
Although this is my second project, I've never built a wing this
big.
I've....
routed the spars
attached the ply for the strut fittings
dry fitted the ribs on spars ( wing is big) and squared
I guess my questions are these....
I planned to secure wing assy squared, and glue ribs, then add
compression struts, then add nose ply, then add the turnbuckles and
cabling to maintain squareness.................. is this what you guys
did?
thanks everyone,
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
In a message dated 9/9/99 8:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time,
wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<< Although this is my second project, I've never built a wing this big.
I've....
routed the spars
attached the ply for the strut fittings
dry fitted the ribs on spars ( wing is big) and squared
I guess my questions are these....
I planned to secure wing assy squared, and glue ribs, then add compression
struts, then add nose ply, then add the turnbuckles and cabling to
maintain squareness.................. is this what you guys did?
thanks everyone,
walt >>
Walt,
I built my wing a little different from you, because my living room / dining
room wasn't long enough to do it laying flat (that's right, I'm not married
!!). I had to build it standing it up, with the trailing edge up, leading
edge down (about 12" off of the floor), extending out through the back door,
on to the enclosed in back porch. I put 1/4" X 2' plywood on the carpet, the
full length of the wing. I then built 5 jigs to support the 3/4" spars, on
to which I slid the cedar ribs, temporarily removing each jig, as I slid the
stack of ribs past. Then the 1/8" X 28" ply doublers in the center section,
and 1/8" X 18" doublers at the lift strut attachment points. I kept the
spars straight by using a laser beam pen (this ol' house has crooked floors),
shimming the pen with paper, then shimming the support jigs. The most
important thing to do is get it straight & square. Building the wing in this
attitude gave me easy access to the top & bottom of the wing. I now have the
fabric on the top & bottom, and I'll complete the wing with paint (brushed
on), before removing it from the house, right out thru the front door. I
hope the neighbors are watching as we carry the thing all the way to the
street, to get it out of the house !! I have lots of pictures of each stage
of construction, and hope to get them on the aircamper site soon.
I'm looking forward to our 1st Annual Pietenpol Fly-In, at Benton KS, this
Saturday!!
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS (Aviation Capital of the World)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: smoke system |
>
>>
>> This is what Mike Sent Me on Smoke.
>
>
> Thanks a million for finding that info, Tim. You saved me alot of typing
>
>
> REF the smoke oil.......what I was told by some airshow folk is that the
> industry
> standard product is Texaco Canopus Oil 13. It is a paraffinic-based
> light grade mineral oil that is basically harmless and produces the whitest
> smoke.
> Texaco uses a distribution system called Equilon and they can tell you who
> might
> carry the stuff nearest your town at 1-800-782-7852. It is becoming
> difficult to order
> in 5 gal containers and the 55 gals. are too much $$ and quantity.
> I've paid around 25$ for a 5 gallon container and I get about 15 good buzz
> jobs per
> gallon.....if that makes any sense whatsoever :) Let's see that's about 75
> smoke
> sessions for 25 $. Golf is more expensive !
>
> Happy Smoking,
>
> Mike C.
This is what Mike Sent Me on Smoke.
Thanks a million for finding that info, Tim. You saved
me alot of typing
REF the smoke oil.......what I was told by some airshow folk is that the
industry
standard product is Texaco Canopus Oil 13. It is a
paraffinic-based
light grade mineral oil that is basically harmless and produces the
whitest smoke.
Texaco uses a distribution system called Equilon and they can tell you
who might
carry the stuff nearest your town at 1-800-782-7852. It is becoming
difficult to order
in 5 gal containers and the 55 gals. are too much $$ and quantity.
I've paid around 25$ for a 5 gallon container and I get about 15 good
buzz jobs per
gallon.....if that makes any sense whatsoever :) Let's see
that's about 75 smoke
sessions for 25 $. Golf is more expensive !
Happy Smoking,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Walter.....Don't listen to Earl M. (absolutely just kidding here...the
guy is a walking
CD rom disk on aviation..)
Some other things to think about when wing building- don't do as I did and
tighten
your drag and anti-drag cables too tight without installing the compression
struts-
ESPECIALLY the TIP bow. I left the tip bow off and as I tightened things up
the end ribs literally exploded. Sounded like a balloon.
Tip two- do not permanently glue or bolt your wingtip bow in place until
AFTER you have cut, and slid in your aileron spars. I found out again, the
hard way.
The aileron should be complete before you ever cut it away from the rest of the
wing. I'm sure others have built them on the bench, but if you want a good fit
and less headaches, do it on the wing. (it looks cool too:)
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Walt-
I second the motion about wing flexibility. Even after the whole
thing is ready for cover, you will find the wing still flexes torsionally
alot. Not to worry. The installation on the plane with struts will
stop this in a hurry...and fabric shrinking will help it along.
You'll be able to build in washout if you like too at the trailing
edge with this flexibility.
The point I'm trying to make is that square is important, but
flat wise, I simply built both my wing panels on two sawhorses
and just sighted down the ribs to make sure I sanded the high
ones. Actually I used a yardstick and it you lay it on edge
and try to 'rock' it and it rocks, you have a high rib somewhere.
You don't want to build in a twist and that's real easy to level
up with some blocks of wood...and again, closing one eye
and sighting works fine- ala suggested by Tony Bingelis in
his books...and it works.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
The regulation FAR91.319(a)(2) states:
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate--
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
This regulation is probably written simple on purpose. It relinguishes
the FAA from any regulatory stipulations concerning airworthiness
for Experimental certificated airplanes for business transactions (money
changing hands). (THIS IS A GOOD THING ..)
The regulation is not limited to hire of the aircraft, but excludes also
useage of the aircraft in any person carrying activity for which
money is charged. Charging for instruction is carrying a person
with compensation happening.
Side related comment (sobering thought) -->
In fact, for an authorized flight
instruction session (some exceptions for instrument instruction .. very
tightly written), i.e. authorized flight instructor giving
the instruction, the instructor is required to be at minimum
qualified to be pilot in command. Any such flight instruction
is also loggable as pilot in command by the instructor.
"David B. Schober" wrote
David,
FAR 91.319 (a) (3) states that an experimental airplane may not be
operated carrying passengers or property for hire. It does not state
that an instructor can't charge for his time. As long as the airplanes
is not being used for hire, a commercial pilot/instructor can charge
for his time. Charging for instruction, charging for test flying and
charging for ferrying an airplane are not necessarily operating an
airplane for hire!
David Scott wrote:
> This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate
> any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,
> or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or
> what relation the person has to certifications.
>
> I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging
> for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.
>
> Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these
> discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.
> Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something
> out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....
>
> ....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .
>
> Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?
>
> ---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7
>
> /--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
>
> =======
> Dick Dery wrote:
> =======
> Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt, as
> long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.
> As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the
> service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being paid
> to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that
> the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The FAA
> doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an
> aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing as
> being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be
> PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.
>
> ========
> David Scott wrote:
> ========
> This is a quick note -->
>
> Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).
>
> The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying an
experimental,
> however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:
>
>
> and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.
>
> But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.
>
> The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge --> consequences could
be legally
> devastating.
>
> Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation
>
> David Scott
> CFII
>
> REF: 14CFR91.319
> ----------------------
> [Code of Federal Regulations]
> [Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]
> [Revised as of January 1, 1999]
> >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
> [CITE: 14CFR91.319]
>
> [Page 219-220]
>
>
> CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
>
> PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents
>
>
> Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
>
> (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate--
> (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
> or
> (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
> (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
> shown that--
> (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
> speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
> (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
> design features.
> (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
> operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
> experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
> airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
> particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
> a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
> terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
> safety in air commerce.
> (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate shall--
> (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft;
> (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
> authorized by the Administrator; and
> (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
> operating control towers.
> (e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
> Administrator considers necessary, including
>
> [[Page 220]]
>
> limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
>
> (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
> 2120-0005)
--
---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7
/--------------------\ |~~\_____/~~\__ |
|scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~\|~~~ |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Also,
Wynn doesn't push any product except for the knowledge that he has
accumulated. If you get his manual, he lists the least expensive parts that
are high quality that are available and the source. The cam that he recommends
in his manual is not his own but is the least expensive available from regular
Corvair parts sources. He has a dynamometer to test his ideas on. He is of
course biased towards Corvair power, it's what he works on all the time, but he
is also quick to point out the shortcomings of the engine. I feel good about
the $49 that I invested for his manual and expect to get many times the value
returned. I am now, also, biased towards Corvair power to fly with. What I
want to get across is not whether to go with a Continental, A or Corvair, but
that I get good "vibes" about the guy. I think that he is a reliable source
of information. I am impressed with the knowledge that he has to offer. I
also plan to go to him for a prop hub. The one he had with him at Brodhead
was really fine quality workmanship.
That's my "soapbox" for this month.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/09/99 09:31:55 PM
Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair/continental
One more thing about the corvair: Torque is 160 @ 2800, AND, puts out 85.6
hp at this setting. Without any special cam! This is the 110 engine. Ryder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
Don't accept anything verbally from an FAA employee! I've had them lie through
their teeth on more than one occasion. Get it in writing if you think you may
need to rely on the info later on!
COZYPILOT(at)aol.com wrote:
> to be on the safe side, ask the local fsdo. Be sure to get the name of the
> fed you talk to. REMEMBER CYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
The regulation FAR91.319(a)(2) states:
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate--
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
========
I think this is the word we should be keying on here. Carrying as in
passengers and cargo. Your not carrying when flight instructing, you are
flight instructing. ========
If you were to try to do part 91 sightseeing etc., or part 135 air taxi
then you would run afoul of this one.
I do like the one suggestion wherever you stand on the thing, best to get
with your FSDO, and make sure they share your opinion.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
<< I am now, also, biased towards Corvair power to fly with. What I
want to get across is not whether to go with a Continental, A or Corvair, but
that I get good "vibes" about the guy. I think that he is a reliable source
of information. I am impressed with the knowledge that he has to offer. I
also plan to go to him for a prop hub. The one he had with him at Brodhead
was really fine quality workmanship. >>
I am also very impressed with Mr. Wynne. Although I would have liked a note
on his answering machine that he was temp. unavailable a few months back so I
wouldn't have call every few days... He has been extremely helpful to me.
Calmed me when I got excited about a difficulty. $49 is a bargain. Although
I have to sell my engine I am not selling it with the manual. I am going
through a divorce and must sell it because I am poor but I plan to start the
next one as soon as possible. I too am sold on the Corvair. It is a brand
new engine when it is done. I feel more comfortable with a engine that I
know inside and out and have dealt with any difficulties and understand it.
I really enjoy the process. I remember two years ago when I first got the
Corvair, 1967 110HP. I had a ball dissassembling the engines. I had no
clue. I have learned a great deal and I owe alot of that knowledge to Mr.
Wynne.
If any one is interested in the engine let me know;
110 HP, SS top studs ($125), block assembled with crank and cam from Wm.
Wynne($450 with bell housing cut and shaped), new main and rod
bearings($110), new pistons,rings and .03 cylinders with reconditioned
rods($700), heads have a valve job and new valves and springs ($325). These
are the prices I paid. I am looking for best offer. I also have many cores
and misc. parts.
William Koucky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Gaskins <randy(at)icomnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
There is a covaircraft mailing list I was suscribed to and have not received any
mesgs. Is covaircraft still operating and if so how can I suscribe? TIA.
May you be blessed with a tailwind. Randy Gaskins
Wkoucky(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> << I am now, also, biased towards Corvair power to fly with. What I
> want to get across is not whether to go with a Continental, A or Corvair, but
> that I get good "vibes" about the guy. I think that he is a reliable source
> of information. I am impressed with the knowledge that he has to offer. I
> also plan to go to him for a prop hub. The one he had with him at Brodhead
> was really fine quality workmanship. >>
>
> I am also very impressed with Mr. Wynne. Although I would have liked a note
> on his answering machine that he was temp. unavailable a few months back so I
> wouldn't have call every few days... He has been extremely helpful to me.
> Calmed me when I got excited about a difficulty. $49 is a bargain. Although
> I have to sell my engine I am not selling it with the manual. I am going
> through a divorce and must sell it because I am poor but I plan to start the
> next one as soon as possible. I too am sold on the Corvair. It is a brand
> new engine when it is done. I feel more comfortable with a engine that I
> know inside and out and have dealt with any difficulties and understand it.
> I really enjoy the process. I remember two years ago when I first got the
> Corvair, 1967 110HP. I had a ball dissassembling the engines. I had no
> clue. I have learned a great deal and I owe alot of that knowledge to Mr.
> Wynne.
>
> If any one is interested in the engine let me know;
>
> 110 HP, SS top studs ($125), block assembled with crank and cam from Wm.
> Wynne($450 with bell housing cut and shaped), new main and rod
> bearings($110), new pistons,rings and .03 cylinders with reconditioned
> rods($700), heads have a valve job and new valves and springs ($325). These
> are the prices I paid. I am looking for best offer. I also have many cores
> and misc. parts.
>
> William Koucky
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Walter;
This Cuy fella..I just don't know!.....DO NOT MESS with the x brace cable
tightening untill you have every last stick in that wing, ailerons included!
As Mr. Cuy said, the compression struts keep everything "apart" when
tensioning the x cables. The x cables got tightened dead last as I removed
the items that kept the wing square to begin with. Remember the wingrib
issue? Using the extra pieces in those ribs (as Charlie Rubek makes them, a
perfect set!) to glue to the spar and not the capstrip kept the wing nearly
square when I removed the "squaring clamps"....the wing stayed put with no
built in stress. After the wing (mine is 1 piece) was pronounced "done",
THEN you cut out the ailerons and the flop! Using the wing gap seal/piano
hinge like Mr. Cuy used, the aileron attachment was a piece of cake, the
aileron looked like a piece of the wing, not a part added on if you know
what I mean. The tip bow takes a lot of various stresses so make sure it is
PERMENTLY on there (glued, T-88 of course) when you crank the wires down. My
bow was installed at first with little wood screws into the ends of the
spars, that got it "made" into the LE and TE. I removed it, slid the beveled
aileron spar in then rescrewed & GLUED/gusseted the bow on. The aileron
internal pieces were then added. Don't forget all the extra pieces you have
to add to keep the fabric from bending things.....!
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:44 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: building wings
>
>Walter.....Don't listen to Earl M. (absolutely just kidding here...the
>guy is a walking
>CD rom disk on aviation..)
>
>Some other things to think about when wing building- don't do as I did and
>tighten
>your drag and anti-drag cables too tight without installing the compression
>struts-
>ESPECIALLY the TIP bow. I left the tip bow off and as I tightened things
up
>the end ribs literally exploded. Sounded like a balloon.
>
>Tip two- do not permanently glue or bolt your wingtip bow in place until
>AFTER you have cut, and slid in your aileron spars. I found out again, the
>hard way.
>The aileron should be complete before you ever cut it away from the rest of
the
>wing. I'm sure others have built them on the bench, but if you want a good
fit
>and less headaches, do it on the wing. (it looks cool too:)
>
>Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
<< There is a covaircraft mailing list I was suscribed to and have not
received any
mesgs. Is covaircraft still operating and if so how can I suscribe? TIA.
May you be blessed with a tailwind. Randy Gaskins
>>
It has been awhile since I received a message for me too.
William
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
How do you put the washout in? With the struts or the drag
wires? Or?
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
Michael D Cuy on 09/10/99 07:58:51
AM
Please respond to Pietenpol Discussion
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: building wings
Walt-
I second the motion about wing flexibility. Even after the
whole
thing is ready for cover, you will find the wing still flexes
torsionally
alot. Not to worry. The installation on the plane with struts
will
stop this in a hurry...and fabric shrinking will help it along.
You'll be able to build in washout if you like too at the
trailing
edge with this flexibility.
The point I'm trying to make is that square is important, but
flat wise, I simply built both my wing panels on two sawhorses
and just sighted down the ribs to make sure I sanded the high
ones. Actually I used a yardstick and it you lay it on edge
and try to 'rock' it and it rocks, you have a high rib somewhere.
You don't want to build in a twist and that's real easy to level
up with some blocks of wood...and again, closing one eye
and sighting works fine- ala suggested by Tony Bingelis in
his books...and it works.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
This is a quote that came from the Kitplanes Website and I found it under
"Questions about homebuilt aircraft" and was the first FAQ that they listed.
The question was "What can I do with a homebuilt aircraft?
I directly cut and pasted over to here. It is still only an opinion, so
treat it as such. Here goes:
"Once the assigned test-flight period is completed, a homebuilt is operated
much like any factory-built, certified plane, with one exception: Commercial
use of the aircraft (rental, charter, paid flight instruction and
cropdusting, for example) is generally precluded. The homebuilt owner may
hire a flight instructor, but a flight instructor cannot charge for
instruction in his/her own homebuilt."
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB, he
must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything You
Bring" or "We can rent a 150"
His wife has and flies a Piet.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 1:36 PM
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
> This is a quote that came from the Kitplanes Website and I found it under
> "Questions about homebuilt aircraft" and was the first FAQ that they
listed.
> The question was "What can I do with a homebuilt aircraft?
>
> I directly cut and pasted over to here. It is still only an opinion, so
> treat it as such. Here goes:
>
> "Once the assigned test-flight period is completed, a homebuilt is
operated
> much like any factory-built, certified plane, with one exception:
Commercial
> use of the aircraft (rental, charter, paid flight instruction and
> cropdusting, for example) is generally precluded. The homebuilt owner may
> hire a flight instructor, but a flight instructor cannot charge for
> instruction in his/her own homebuilt."
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Michael,
I want to pause reading my messages here and respond to what you just said,
this eases my mind.
My first project was a short wing , Fisher 404, and it used the geodetic
design , which was criss cross thin strips top and bottom. when these
were glued, the wing was like a rock. No twist what so ever.
so now i'm thinking that I have to get this huge wing straight, flat and no
twist.
I've already found that the spars take care of themselves up and down. The
whip I can take care of with a chalk line. But didn't know how to assure to
get wing flat without renting a transit.
Now with what you're telling me , I'm comfortable with top of spars being
good with a level.
thanks
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 8:05 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: building wings
>Walt-
>
>I second the motion about wing flexibility. Even after the whole
>thing is ready for cover, you will find the wing still flexes torsionally
>alot. Not to worry. The installation on the plane with struts will
>stop this in a hurry...and fabric shrinking will help it along.
>You'll be able to build in washout if you like too at the trailing
>edge with this flexibility.
> The point I'm trying to make is that square is important, but
>flat wise, I simply built both my wing panels on two sawhorses
>and just sighted down the ribs to make sure I sanded the high
>ones. Actually I used a yardstick and it you lay it on edge
>and try to 'rock' it and it rocks, you have a high rib somewhere.
>You don't want to build in a twist and that's real easy to level
>up with some blocks of wood...and again, closing one eye
>and sighting works fine- ala suggested by Tony Bingelis in
>his books...and it works.
>
>Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug <ve6zh(at)oanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
I'am getting nearly idendical thrust from my vair at 3000 rpm static as a
c-85 cont. but with NO vibration.
Doug Hunt.....
> From: ToySat(at)aol.com
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: corvair/continental
> Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 7:31 PM
>
> One more thing about the corvair: Torque is 160 @ 2800, AND, puts out
85.6
> hp at this setting. Without any special cam! This is the 110 engine.
Ryder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
Gordon Brimhall wrote:
>
> I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB, he
> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything You
> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"
>
> His wife has and flies a Piet.
>
> Gordon
Gordon,
You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very
nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my
Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week
to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.
Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug <ve6zh(at)oanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
I doubled the drag wires,and comp.struts(4 drag sets per panel),vair
power,had it on the scales,dry wieght with only the instrument panel covers
off ,is 643LBS,this includes an electrical system also.Alum. steamlined
struts saved 9 lbs over cut down piper struts.Using 3/4 spars,not routed,3
mil birch ply doubler plate at fittings etc.
Doug Hunt
> From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: building wings
> Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 6:04 PM
>
> Michael,
> I want to pause reading my messages here and respond to what you just
said,
> this eases my mind.
> My first project was a short wing , Fisher 404, and it used the geodetic
> design , which was criss cross thin strips top and bottom. when
these
> were glued, the wing was like a rock. No twist what so ever.
> so now i'm thinking that I have to get this huge wing straight, flat and
no
> twist.
> I've already found that the spars take care of themselves up and down.
The
> whip I can take care of with a chalk line. But didn't know how to assure
to
> get wing flat without renting a transit.
> Now with what you're telling me , I'm comfortable with top of spars being
> good with a level.
> thanks
> walt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: building wings
>
>
> >Walt-
> >
> >I second the motion about wing flexibility. Even after the whole
> >thing is ready for cover, you will find the wing still flexes
torsionally
> >alot. Not to worry. The installation on the plane with struts will
> >stop this in a hurry...and fabric shrinking will help it along.
> >You'll be able to build in washout if you like too at the trailing
> >edge with this flexibility.
> > The point I'm trying to make is that square is important, but
> >flat wise, I simply built both my wing panels on two sawhorses
> >and just sighted down the ribs to make sure I sanded the high
> >ones. Actually I used a yardstick and it you lay it on edge
> >and try to 'rock' it and it rocks, you have a high rib somewhere.
> >You don't want to build in a twist and that's real easy to level
> >up with some blocks of wood...and again, closing one eye
> >and sighting works fine- ala suggested by Tony Bingelis in
> >his books...and it works.
> >
> >Mike C.
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
Hi all,
I have a good Ford Escort 1.9 L engine. Maybe 90 H. P. What's the
scoop on this engine. I herd someone tried it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental |
I was just looking at an old KitPlanes that had a Piet with an Escort
engine. Nice looking plane....
John W
-----Original Message-----
From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com <VAHOWDY(at)aol.com>
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:59 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair/continental
>Hi all,
> I have a good Ford Escort 1.9 L engine. Maybe 90 H. P. What's the
>scoop on this engine. I herd someone tried it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Walt... The procedure I follow is to attach all fittings, slide on ribs (of
course some of the fittings can only go on after the ribs have been
positioned. Cut compression members to size and install without gluing. Then
do a preliminary squaring of the structure, make up and install all of the
cable assemblies and trammel. Mark rib positions, loosen but do not remove
cable, slid ribs aside to glue, reposition and nail. Check squarness by
re-trammeling. Position and glue compression members. Recheck trammel.
Tighten turnbuckles while continuously checking squarness with trammel.
Install leading and trailing edges. Hope this helps,
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
Yep thats them, he told the story about his wife and the winds, I really
enjoyed his talk about the new rules and he kept throwing in some stories
about his up coming from a young boy. He could be one of my Heros.
Your very lucky to have met him as I was.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com> |
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 5:28 AM
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
> Gordon Brimhall wrote:
> >
> > I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB,
he
> > must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything
You
> > Bring" or "We can rent a 150"
> >
> > His wife has and flies a Piet.
> >
> > Gordon
>
> Gordon,
>
> You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very
> nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my
> Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week
> to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.
>
> Mike List
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
Walt Evans Mike Cuy added some very good points. One thing I forgot to
mention I didn't like the idea of using the Tip Bow as a compression member
so built a compression member just inside the bow, locked it all up and then
built the bow. The added weight was minimal and I felt was justified. I also
added vertical members against the spars as Mike did...front and rear faces
of both spars
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bert & Nancy Conoly |
| Subject: | Re: corvair/continental re: Ford Escort 1.9 |
Howdy, Is it for a Piet? I bet it would REALLY work for a Scout. DO you
know what RPM the 90 hp occurs at? Can you get hp and torque data for the
engine?
Hmmmm. Sounds promising. I'm no expert - just slept at a Motel 6 last
night ;>)
Got a buddy who REALLY knows engines - I will run it up the flag pole with
him and see what he thinks!
Will post back next week..
Bert
-----Original Message-----
From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com <VAHOWDY(at)aol.com>
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 9:00 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair/continental
>Hi all,
> I have a good Ford Escort 1.9 L engine. Maybe 90 H. P. What's the
>scoop on this engine. I herd someone tried it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
In a message dated 9/10/99 1:06:05 PM Central Daylight Time,
mbell(at)sctcorp.com writes:
<<
How do you put the washout in? With the struts or the drag
wires? Or?
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC >>
Mike,
The purpose of washout is to maintain a smooth airflow over the ailerons,
after the inboard portion of the wing has stalled. Washout is reserved for
wing planforms OTHER than hershy bar wings, such as a tapered wing. A
hershy bar wing will naturally initiate the stall on the inboard portion of
the wing, therefore it could actually have a negative effect on lift, at a
given angle of attack. Keep it simple, as Bernie intended it to be !!
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
They're callin' for rain on Saturday, for the Benton Fly-In. %*$#%&$#&%* !!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
Mike, do you have the E-mail for the Painters? They had a Piet N18GH that
had a Corvair. I have video of them putting it together and taxing but they
never flew it. They sold it to a guy in Oregon where it crashed on it's
first flight after the engine quit. I have the Piet now and would like more
info about the original builder. Thanks
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave>
>Mike List
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve wrote:
I have been studing my GN-1 plans and am I to understand the wings can be
detached? Cant a wing cradle be fabracated to carry them on the side of
the Fuse? I plan on removing my wings and leaving the control cables
still attached and transport my GN back to the house and park it on its
own garage/hanger?
Any ideas on this will be most appreciated.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | PVC clamps saved the day |
Mike,
Just dug up your old post on clamps from June. Read and passed it over
as "probably won't use it".
For the last few days been trying to figure the best clamping method for
ribs to spars. No matter what I tried didn't fit. Then thought of the
PVC thing. Only had 2", so cut them about 3/8" wide, and they worked
great. Since all the prep was done, only took a couple of hours to glue
ribs/spar. (one wing only)
Now on to tip bow.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Saturday, June 26, 1999 4:45 PM
Subject: clamps
This may be of interest to the group, from the Horizon - 1 group.
<<>>>
Mike B - Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming 0-145 |
The O-145 is the Lycoming 65hp engine and it does not put out the power
an A-65 delivers. It doesn't have the torque. Most of these engine were
replaced by Continentals in production aircraft years ago. Lycoming has
not made parts for them in years and parts are hard to come by.
John Langston
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
Does anyone know if Jim Van Dervort is in the group. I have been trying
unsuccessfully to get in touch with him. Grant MacLaren's "E-mail Friends"
link is apparently no longer in operation (and nothing has been added to his
"for Sale" link since last May !!) The phone number I had used some time ago
now gives me an operatopr recording. Does anyone in the discussion group know
how I can contact Jim ?? thanx for any help.
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
I was at the Piet flyin at Benton today. Brought this subject up to two CFI
s and both said that it was ok to flight instruct in the student pilots
experimental aircraft. One of them has actually done it!
The flyin at Benton, KS was a great success even if the weather was bad.
I'll try to post some pictures to my web site this weekend.
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
>Gordon Brimhall wrote:
>>
>> I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB,
he
>> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything
You
>> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"
>>
>> His wife has and flies a Piet.
>>
>> Gordon
>
>Gordon,
>
>You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very
>nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my
>Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week
>to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.
>
>Mike List
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
In the old days you used to be able to have a horse riding instructor
instruct us on your own horse, then the govt took over and changed the
rules. Now you have to rent a horse to be instructed on because your best
horse was considered an experamental horse.
Is their something wrong with this picture, What ever happened to our rights
to choose who instructed us, and to choose what we were instructed in. We
have lost so much freedom in this country It is sickening me.
Read the constitution, we never gave the govt the right to do all of this.
Just my opinion.
I guess I hold it dear because my Grandfather Sylvanous fought in the
Revolutionary War for our rights.
I'm getting tired of "Mother May I"
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 1999 3:32 PM
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ... |
> I was at the Piet flyin at Benton today. Brought this subject up to two
CFI
> s and both said that it was ok to flight instruct in the student pilots
> experimental aircraft. One of them has actually done it!
>
> The flyin at Benton, KS was a great success even if the weather was bad.
> I'll try to post some pictures to my web site this weekend.
>
>
> Greg Yotz
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michael list <mclist(at)ptw.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
>
>
> >Gordon Brimhall wrote:
> >>
> >> I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB,
> he
> >> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said
"Anything
> You
> >> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"
> >>
> >> His wife has and flies a Piet.
> >>
> >> Gordon
> >
> >Gordon,
> >
> >You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very
> >nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my
> >Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week
> >to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.
> >
> >Mike List
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
Hi,
I just got back from the fly-in at Benton and agree with Greg Yotz. It
WAS a Great success!!! Unfortunately, the weather was cruddy so no Piets
flew...but I counted six Piets in attendance. (one was flyable) I am
guessing there must have been 30 or 35 model A cars there. I talked to at
least at least a dozen piet builders and I know there were more that I just
didn't get around to meet. I spoke to 2 folks each working on their own
projects from TX who had driven in. Another man from North Central Kansas.
And quite a few from the south central Kansas region. I would list the
names, but I am afraid I would get some wrong. I am terrible with names.
Not to worry though...Chuck Gantzer had a sign-in sheet circulating, so I
will try to talk him into posting the entries so we can recall who was there.
Here's what I can recall from memory...
Doug Bryant (Wichita) had the only flyable Piet there. He ran his "A" engine
for us and it sure sounded sweet. The weather never really was good enough
for Doug to give us a demonstration flight. He did give everyone a walk
around tour. (I think he wound up doing 10 laps or so around the plane.)
His Piet is quite authentic to the 1933 plans.
Joe Beck (Wichita) had his long fuselage there. He's got a custom
remanufactured Corvair waiting in his shop. Some of us wound up driving the
2.5 miles over to his shop to inspect the remainder of his project. He's
coming along nicely with things. I'd say he's about 85% complete.
Chuck Gantzer and Doug Bryant (Wichita) had their short fuselage on display.
Doug built the fuselage and Chuck built the wing. Chuck has his gas tank in,
the wing fabric glued, and he's just about ready for rib-stitching. Seems
to me that they are about 90% there. Their "A" is in the overhaul shop,
currently. Chuck also had his ailerons on display, and photo albums.
Leon Stefan (Hutchinson Kansas) brought his landing gear jig to display,
complete with axle/wheels/disc brakes and tires (kitfox tundra-type). He also
was showing off his aluminum "A" head with dual plugs.
I brought my rib jig complete with one rib cured and ready to pop out.
(Wichita) I just glued it up at 2 am this morning. We popped it out of the
jig and then had plenty of discussion about rib-building technique.
John Greenlee (excuse me if I messed up the name) brought his gas tank mold
and a picture album of his project. He lives in Bowie, TX. He also pulled
out his immaculate original issue flying and glider manuals. That was a
treat for me. I have only seen the EAA reprint version. I think he hass all
years except for the 1929. Says he bought them over an internet auction.
I saw a bunch of folks in Pietenpol shirts, but I didn't get around to meet
everyone I would have liked to. Saw lots of smiling friendly people and
noticed that everyone seemed to be having a good time. Shared a lot of
technical and not-so-technical discussions. Got a few Stearman buzz jobs.
Witnessed several hot-dogs being consumed. Some by the airport dog who I
think greeted everyone there. All in all I think it was great and am already
looking forward to the 2nd annual Benton fly-in.
Terry B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
You can detach the wings any time you want. Just paln to re-rig the
airplane when you put it back together. I've been there and done that and
it is always rigged wrong. A couple of trips around the pattern and I have
it back in order.
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>Steve wrote:
>I have been studing my GN-1 plans and am I to understand the wings can be
>detached? Cant a wing cradle be fabracated to carry them on the side of
>the Fuse? I plan on removing my wings and leaving the control cables
>still attached and transport my GN back to the house and park it on its
>own garage/hanger?
>Any ideas on this will be most appreciated.
>
>Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Don wrote:
>>Does anyone in the discussion group know
how I can contact Jim ?? >>>
I have never seen Jim's name on this group. But I have seen him on the
following news group:
rec aviation homebuilt
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
Don wrote:
Does anyone in the discussion group know how I can
contact Jim
??
I have never seen Jim's name on this group. But I have seen him on
the
following news group:
rec aviation homebuilt
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Follow up on my last mail.
Found this on internet.
Big Jim:
e-mail: jvan2(at)juno.com
Don't know if it is still in effect.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
Follow up on my last mail.
Found this on internet.
Big Jim:
e-mail:
Don't know if it is still in
effect.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe & Marian Beck <flyretina(at)feist.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Benton Drive-In |
Greg Y is absolutely correct! The first Benton (1K1) Piet gathering
provided great fellowship. Around 40 cars from the "A" crowd showed up,
many wanting to be photgraphed by Doug Bryant's A-Piet. Their owners
applauded and grinned ear-to-ear when the engine settled into a smooth
purr. Low overcast grounded many out of town Piets but everyone agreed
the impressive turnout and obvious enthusiasm for this design warrant an
annual Wichita fly-in. Reserve the first Saturday after Labor Day on
your year 2000 calendars.
Joe Beck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TomTravis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: A ride with Robert H. |
Mike,
A Texas Piet fly-in sounds like a great idea. Where and when?
Tom Travis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke wheel
hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2 monthes
I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes, unless
they are for motorcycles.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: building wings |
Washout is done either with tilting the last 3 ribs via thicker spacers
under the capstrips or (&better, easier) at the wing strut attach points,
rear fittings being longer to achieve this
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: building wings
>
>
>How do you put the washout in? With the struts or the drag
>wires? Or?
>
>Mike Bell
>Columbia, SC
>
>
>Michael D Cuy on 09/10/99 07:58:51
>AM
>
>Please respond to Pietenpol Discussion
>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>cc:
>Subject: Re: building wings
>
>
>Walt-
>
>I second the motion about wing flexibility. Even after the
>whole
>thing is ready for cover, you will find the wing still flexes
>torsionally
>alot. Not to worry. The installation on the plane with struts
>will
>stop this in a hurry...and fabric shrinking will help it along.
>You'll be able to build in washout if you like too at the
>trailing
>edge with this flexibility.
> The point I'm trying to make is that square is important, but
>flat wise, I simply built both my wing panels on two sawhorses
>and just sighted down the ribs to make sure I sanded the high
>ones. Actually I used a yardstick and it you lay it on edge
>and try to 'rock' it and it rocks, you have a high rib somewhere.
>You don't want to build in a twist and that's real easy to level
>up with some blocks of wood...and again, closing one eye
>and sighting works fine- ala suggested by Tony Bingelis in
>his books...and it works.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | User554784(at)aol.com |
unsubscribe PIET
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Benton Drive-In |
Sounds good Joe. I'll be there flying my Piet next year!!!!
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe & Marian Beck <flyretina(at)feist.com>
Date: Saturday, September 11, 1999 9:27 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Benton Drive-In
>Greg Y is absolutely correct! The first Benton (1K1) Piet gathering
>provided great fellowship. Around 40 cars from the "A" crowd showed up,
>many wanting to be photgraphed by Doug Bryant's A-Piet. Their owners
>applauded and grinned ear-to-ear when the engine settled into a smooth
>purr. Low overcast grounded many out of town Piets but everyone agreed
>the impressive turnout and obvious enthusiasm for this design warrant an
>annual Wichita fly-in. Reserve the first Saturday after Labor Day on
>your year 2000 calendars.
>Joe Beck
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
YES! Back to ya shortly
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke wheel
>hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>
>Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
monthes
>I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>
>These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>
>I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes, unless
>they are for motorcycles.
>
>Bob
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I have seen several references to 3/4" spars and was wondering if this is
from a later set of plans. My '33 plans show 1" routed spars and no pieces
on the ribs to glue against the spar face. This is how I built my ribs and
there is a definite springback when removed from the jig, particularly in
the area of the spars. Not concerned about it as when installed on the
spars they will be fine.
I really like the idea of building spars with 1/8 Baltic birch faces
over two 1x3/4" spacers. Of course I need to see a stress analysis before
I build them. Anyone know the strength of 1/8" Baltic birch 3 ply? Seems
to me as long as its over twice that of spruce the spar would be as strong
as the routed variety.
Wayne Sippola
Winnipeg MB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Benton Fly-In Pictures. |
I posted some of my digital camera pictures to my web page.
If anyone is interest here is the link:
http://www.kans.com/gyachts/
I would also like email identifying people in the pictures. I'll then
add a note to each picture.
Greg Yotz
Making sawdust....
I posted some of my digital camera
pictures to
my web page.
If anyone is interest here is the
link:
href"http://www.kans.com/gyachts/">http://www.kans.com/gyachts/
I would also like email identifying people in the
pictures. I'll then add a note to each picture.
Greg Yotz
Making sawdust....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Shoulder Harnesses |
One of the subjects that I'm very interested in right now is shoulder
harnesses in Piets.
I saw two different examples at Benton and I'm wondering what everyone
else has done?
This is a subject that I hadn't worried about until now and I went back
over all my Piet pictures and couldn't find a single picture of
someone's installation.
One of the installations was through a raised turtle deck(Joe Becks) and
the other was going to be through a fiberglass head rest(Chuck Gantzer).
Unfortunately my digital camera didn't take good pictures of either one
of these.(bad lighting) I hope my 35mm did.
I haven't finished glueing my turtle deck down yet and I'm considering
raising it so I can run my straps through it and back to my sturn post.
I'm also concerned with attaching the shoulder harness anywhere except
the sturn post. Anybody want to comment?
Thanks,
Greg Yotz
One of the subjects that I'm very
interested in
right now is shoulder harnesses in Piets.
I saw two different examples at
Benton and I'm
wondering what everyone else has done?
This is a subject that I hadn't
worried about
until now and I went back over all my Piet pictures and couldn't find a
single
picture of someone's installation.
One of the installations was through a raised turtle
deck(Joe
Becks) and the other was going to be through a fiberglass head
rest(Chuck
Gantzer). Unfortunately my digital camera didn't take good
pictures of
either one of these.(bad lighting) I hope my 35mm
did.
I haven't finished glueing my turtle
deck down
yet and I'm considering raising it so I can run my straps through it and
back to
my sturn post.
I'm also concerned with attaching
the shoulder
harness anywhere except the sturn post. Anybody want to
comment?
Thanks,
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
One thought that I can add to this, that I learned from the pros. The
shoulder straps should go up your chest, over the shoulder, and STRAIGHT
IN, as much as possible, to the bulkhead. If not , in the event of
accident, your body goes forward, and the spine compresses.
Not a pretty thought.
walt
ps My Fisher's shoulder harness attached to tailwheel fitting at the
sternpost.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:08 PM
Subject: Shoulder Harnesses
One of the subjects that I'm very interested in right now is
shoulder harnesses in Piets.
I saw two different examples at Benton and I'm wondering what
everyone else has done?
This is a subject that I hadn't worried about until now and I went
back over all my Piet pictures and couldn't find a single picture of
someone's installation.
One of the installations was through a raised turtle deck(Joe Becks)
and the other was going to be through a fiberglass head rest(Chuck
Gantzer). Unfortunately my digital camera didn't take good pictures of
either one of these.(bad lighting) I hope my 35mm did.
I haven't finished glueing my turtle deck down yet and I'm
considering raising it so I can run my straps through it and back to my
sturn post.
I'm also concerned with attaching the shoulder harness anywhere
except the sturn post. Anybody want to comment?
Thanks,
Greg Yotz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 1st Annual Pietenpol Fly-In at Benton Airport |
Hello Group,
Well, the 1st Annual is over now, and I gotta say that it was a complete
success!! Thanks to all who showed up, and especially to those who drove for
so many hours to get here. The low ceiling prohibited any Pietenpols from
flying in, which was a little dissapointing, but a pilots we can all
understand how the Mother Nature can do her thing. Never the less, it was a
day full of discussion about Bernie's '8th Wonder of the World !! Airport
Management didn't want any campers on the grounds, because there are no
restroom facilities, but next year if we have a port-a-jon on site, I don't
think they will have any problems allowing campers on site. Benton is well
within the range of quite a few Pietenpols, and I'm looking forward to the
next fly-in. Mike Conkling suggested we have two fly-ins a year...how 'bout
one in the spring, and one in the fall, on the first weekend after Labor
Day???
Chuck Gantzer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B and V Dearinger <dearinge(at)iocc.com> |
Does anyone know what happened to the chev vega powered piet that was at
Oshkosh in the early 70's?Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol Discussion Group |
Ther has been a lot of discussion lately about the aluminum that would
be acceptable to use on cowlings. The messages spoke of using 5052, 2024,
and 6061. 2024T-3 is the usual and best aluminum to use in such
applications. It is the structural aluminum used in nearly all light
airplane construction. However, the Piet cowl and cockpit fairings are
not structural and the strength 2024T-3 offers is not absolutely
necessary. But a lot depends on the temper of the other aluminum
involved. The T-3 after 2024 refers to the heat treatment and tempering
of the aluminum to make it stronger. Often, 5052 is offered in the "-O"
or annealed state which means it's soft and would be very easily dented.
With the prop throwing up rocks or whatever, it would not take long to
beat up the cowl.
Also, someone brought up about material thickness, whether to use .025
or .032. The original plans call for .020 or .025 ternplate, a roofing
material. I plan to use .025 2024T-3 Alclad on our plane. It is
expensive, but if you look around and talk to your local FBO, especially
if they rebuild damaged aircraft, you might be able to get a smaller
piece at a more reasonable cost. Believe it or not, when I worked for the
Mooney Aircraft Corporation I was able to buy a piece of 2024T-3, whether
in a full sheet or not, by the pound. I bought a half sheet for $10.00 a
number of years ago. I no longer work there and the ownership has since
changed so things are different now, but you never know what you can find
if you don't look.
Piets forever,
John Langston
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Wayne wrote:
snip<<< I have seen several references to 3/4" spars >>
My spars & Ed Snyders' are both 3/4".
Our ribs have both uprights for the spar. I made the ribs with a one
inch space between the fwd & aft upright. That gave me plenty of room to
slide the ribs unto the spar. After the ribs were located a 1/4" plywood
spacer was place on the after face of the spar at each rib location.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
Wayne wrote:
snip I have seen several
references
to 3/4 spars
My spars Ed Snyders'
are both 3/4.
Our ribs have both uprights for the spar. I
made the
ribs with a one inch space between the fwd aft upright. That gave
me
plenty of room to slide the ribs unto the spar. After the ribs were
located a
1/4 plywood spacer was place on the after face of the spar at each
rib
location.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam
)
________________________________________________________________________________
Has anyone figured out how to install push rods on the controlls? Can it
be done.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | claude <claude.plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Downsized Piet ? |
nle97(at)juno.com wrote:
> Piets forever
Why not, but before, some ground-level questions.
1. What about a downsized Piet to fit FAI UL regs : 992 lbs MTOW, 40mph stall
?
I'm thinking of a 90- 92% one from the Don plans.
2. With a 4-stroke lighter than the Fords or Corvairs. And easier to find in France.
("Good morning Sir, would you have an oil pump for a 1924 Model A ?").
3. Any Piet buff in France ? it would be of course for a ride.
4. Tell me about the stall.
5. What about the landing speed and distance, it would be for my 15 years kid,
just
soloed.
6. Stretched fuse or not ? Steel or wood (I prefer wood).
7. e-mail address of the builder of this beautiful black and red Piet seen in Oshkosh
?
Thanks guys, I appreciate the serious of this group.
Claude
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
---
>Has anyone figured out how to install push rods on the controlls? Can it
>be done.
>
>Steve
Why?
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Beautiful Wood Work |
We were all standing around and admiring some of the great woodwork at
the flyin yesterday. I had a thought today.(doesn't happen very often!)
Is there a way to cover a wing and have clear sections? What would the
material be? Would it be UV proof?
Sure would be cool to have big panels on the bottom of your wing so
people could se the ribs and stuff.
Same way on the fusalage behind the rear cockpit back to the tail.
Just wonder'n........
Greg Yotz
Piets for ever!
We were all standing around and
admiring some of
the great woodwork at the flyin yesterday. I had a thought
today.(doesn't
happen very often!)
Is there a way to cover a wing and
have clear
sections? What would the material be? Would it be UV
proof?
Sure would be cool to have big
panels on the
bottom of your wing so people could se the ribs and stuff.
Same way on the fusalage behind the
rear cockpit
back to the tail.
Just wonder'n........
Greg Yotz
Piets for ever!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
Greg,
If you install shoulder straps MAKE SURE that they fasten several inches
above your shoulders!
DO NOT fasten them lower! Doing so will virtually guarantee a broken back in
any sort of impact.
Den
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Beautiful Wood Work |
Greg!
I remember seeing a see-thru Cub at the Rockford EAA Fly-in in the mid 60's
-- it had used a mesh reinforced plastic window material -- should have
better technology now days , like a heavy duty Mono-coat. It would be a
good idea to have some sort of "rip-stop"
Mike Conkling
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Beautiful Wood Work |
We were all standing around and admiring some of the great woodwork at the
flyin yesterday. I had a thought today.(doesn't happen very often!)
Is there a way to cover a wing and have clear sections? What would the
material be? Would it be UV proof?
Sure would be cool to have big panels on the bottom of your wing so people
could se the ribs and stuff.
Same way on the fusalage behind the rear cockpit back to the tail.
Just wonder'n........
Greg Yotz
Piets for ever!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COZYPILOT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures. |
I,m standing on the porch in picture 20. Almost invisible to the naked
eye.....lol
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kyle ray <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet wingtip |
Has anyone out there in (PAN) Pietenpol Area Network ever
reinforced the outer rib in the event of a ground loop? I was
considering extruding a small piece of aluminum in case the wing
tip hit the run way may be it would act as a skid and prevent damage?
Russell
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 9:33 AM
| Subject: | Re: Piet wingtip |
> To make my wingtip bow I took a long piece of plywood and laid out
> a wing rib (already built) on it and traced it out...including the points
> where the two spars and LE and TE centerlines are. I purchased cheap
> pine lattice at the DIY store as I recall 1/4" x 1.5 or 2.0" wide and
without
> steam or water just bent them by hand to the 'centerline' and had a
> helper draw a pencil line along one edge. Another line two thicknesses
> of the wood I chose above and below gave me a guide to work from.
> I drove 6 penny or so nails along the top curved line and bottom curved
> line and just lathered up one lattice strip at a time an stuck it in my
> nail lined 'jig'. I snipped off the nail heads with a pair of diagonals
to
> make
> the pieces go in and out easier. Each of the four lattice pieces was
T-88'ed
> and slipped into place. It took a wood block and mallet to force the last
one
> into my 'jig'. Before any gluing took place I laid Saran wrap over the
> jig, pressed
> it down over the nails so I could use the jig twice.
> Once dry I ran the 1" thick laminated wingtip bow thru my table router
> using a
> 1/2" radius round over bit on the outside of the bow to make a nice
rounded
> edge.
> The rest was planed down and sanded smooth. It took two trys, two
different
> jigs, to get these bows to line up with the LE, TE, and two spars, but
the end
> result was worth the effort. Strong as can be too.
>
> Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kyle ray <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net> |
i PREFER PORK!
RUSS
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Yotz
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Ribs
I was hoping that they would be smoked beef "ribs" with a tangy pepper
barbecue sauce....;->
GY
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 4:55 AM
Subject: Ribs
>> Speaking of ribs, is everyone aware that Charlie Rubeck sells an
>> excellent set of ribs?
>> >Steve wrote: are these Piet ribs or maby GN-1/
Piet ribs.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kyle ray <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
David,
I've done something stupid I saved the neutral axis
of my spar on my hard drive and my son
formatted it and erased it. Yes I know that you went to a lot
of trouble to find this for me but if
would do it again I'll copy it to a floppy
immediately. You know they say insanity
is doing the same thing over again and again \
expecting different results So if yak rather
not I understand. I am finally ready to assemble
the wing and I don't know where to bore the holes
for hardware.
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 4:20 PM
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
> This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate
> any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,
> or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or
> what relation the person has to certifications.
>
> I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging
> for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.
>
> Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these
> discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.
> Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something
> out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....
>
> ....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .
>
>
> Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?
>
>
=======
> Dick Dery wrote:
>
=======
> Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt,
as
> long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.
> As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the
> service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being
paid
> to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that
> the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The
FAA
> doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an
> aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing
as
> being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be
> PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.
>
>
=======
=
> David Scott wrote:
>
=======
=
> This is a quick note -->
>
> Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).
>
> The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying
an experimental,
> however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:
>
>
> and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.
>
> But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.
>
> The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge -->
consequences could be legally
> devastating.
>
> Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation
>
> David Scott
> CFII
>
> REF: 14CFR91.319
> ----------------------
> [Code of Federal Regulations]
> [Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]
> [Revised as of January 1, 1999]
> >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
> [CITE: 14CFR91.319]
>
> [Page 219-220]
>
>
> CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
>
> PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents
>
>
> Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations.
>
> (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate--
> (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
> or
> (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
> (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
> shown that--
> (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
> speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
> (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
> design features.
> (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
> operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
> experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
> airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
> particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
> a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
> terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
> safety in air commerce.
> (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate shall--
> (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft;
> (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
> authorized by the Administrator; and
> (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
> operating control towers.
> (e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
> Administrator considers necessary, including
>
> [[Page 220]]
>
> limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
>
> (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
> 2120-0005)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet rims
and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
interest.
Earl Myers-Ohio
-----Original Message-----
From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke wheel
>hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>
>Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
monthes
>I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>
>These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>
>I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes, unless
>they are for motorcycles.
>
>Bob
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
DON'T MESS WITH SUCCESS!
-----Original Message-----
From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 5:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pushrods.
>Has anyone figured out how to install push rods on the controlls? Can it
>be done.
>
>Steve
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Beautiful Wood Work |
There was a Waco a couple of years ago at Oshkosh that was completely
covered in clear plastic and it flew in, quite a show that one!
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 8:30 PM
Subject: Beautiful Wood Work
We were all standing around and admiring some of the great woodwork
at the flyin yesterday. I had a thought today.(doesn't happen very
often!)
Is there a way to cover a wing and have clear sections? What would
the material be? Would it be UV proof?
Sure would be cool to have big panels on the bottom of your wing so
people could se the ribs and stuff.
Same way on the fusalage behind the rear cockpit back to the tail.
Just wonder'n........
Greg Yotz
Piets for ever!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Earl,
Yes, I'm interested. You have no idea how long I've been dragging that steel
tube fuselage across the cement floor.
Bob
>From: Earl Myers
>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:08:49 -0400
>
>Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet rims
>and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
>interest.
>Earl Myers-Ohio
>-----Original Message-----
>From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
>Subject: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>
>
> >Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke
>wheel
> >hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
> >
> >Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
>monthes
> >I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
> >
> >These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
> >
> >I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes,
>unless
> >they are for motorcycles.
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net> |
| Subject: | Engine choice...GM L4 |
In regard to the GM L4, How big is the main bearing on whichever end you
plan to hang the propellor on. At least as I understand it one of the
nice things about the Model A Ford is that the main bearings are
relatively wide and thus are able to handle the stresses imposed when
one changes the orientation of a large gyroscope (propellor). I have
read that this is also true of VW conversions. I don't know how big the
bearing is on a corvair but I guess it is big enough. All of the
aircraft engine main bearings on the propellor end that I have ever seen
were pretty substantial. Also are the thrust bearings up for the job. I
haven't settled on what engine I am going to use but a PSRU can be made
to handle most of the loads involved without stressing the engine
bearings unduly. My personal favorite is a planetary gear set. I have
often wondered about adapting as set from a drag racing transmission. It
is a manual transmission with stacked sets of gears and is designed to
handle 1200 + horsepower. This is all of course just my opinion and
should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Matt Kirk
In regard to the GM L4, How big is
the main
bearing on whichever end you plan to hang the propellor on. At least as
I
understand it one of the nice things about the Model A Ford is that the
main
bearings are relatively wide and thus are able to handle the stresses
imposed
when one changes the orientation of a large gyroscope (propellor). I
have read
that this is also true of VW conversions. I don't know how big the
bearing is on
a corvair but I guess it is big enough. All of the aircraft engine main
bearings
on the propellor end that I have ever seen were pretty substantial. Also
are the
thrust bearings up for the job. I haven't settled on what engine I am
going to
use but a PSRU can be made to handle most of the loads involved without
stressing the engine bearings unduly. My personal favorite is a
planetary gear
set. I have often wondered about adapting as set from a drag racing
transmission. It is a manual transmission with stacked sets of gears and
is
designed to handle 1200 + horsepower. This is all of course just
my
opinion and should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
Matt Kirk
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Beautiful Wood Work |
In a message dated 9/12/99 7:30:35 PM Central Daylight Time, gyachts(at)kans.com
writes:
<< Is there a way to cover a wing and have clear sections? What would the
material be? Would it be UV proof?
Sure would be cool to have big panels on the bottom of your wing so people
could se the ribs and stuff.
Same way on the fusalage behind the rear cockpit back to the tail.
>>
That would be pretty neat idea...I had a hard time covering it up, myself. I
kept lifting the 2.7 stits material to take just one more look !! They do
make clear monocoat, used on r.c. models, but I don't think I'd like to be
the test fly the plane that uses it !!
Chuck Gantzer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Question on engine choice |
In a message dated 9/12/99 10:26:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
wihutson(at)yahoo.com writes:
<< - Weigh no more than a Model A. Approx 250lbs.
- Produce the required HP at an engine/propeller friendly RPM.
Somewhere between 2000 and 2800 rpm.
- Be a relativily new product
- Parts must be easily obtained.
- Inexpensive would be nice.
- Not require a PSRU
- Be very,very,very reliable!!! >>
Hey Bill,
A Model A engine covers all the bases, and does it under 2000 rpm !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine choice...GM L4 |
Matt,
I believe that Ross PRSU's use planetary gears from Ford Automatic
transmissions.
John W
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 11:24 PM
Subject: Engine choice...GM L4
In regard to the GM L4, How big is the main bearing on whichever end
you plan to hang the propellor on. At least as I understand it one of
the nice things about the Model A Ford is that the main bearings are
relatively wide and thus are able to handle the stresses imposed when
one changes the orientation of a large gyroscope (propellor). I have
read that this is also true of VW conversions. I don't know how big the
bearing is on a corvair but I guess it is big enough. All of the
aircraft engine main bearings on the propellor end that I have ever seen
were pretty substantial. Also are the thrust bearings up for the job. I
haven't settled on what engine I am going to use but a PSRU can be made
to handle most of the loads involved without stressing the engine
bearings unduly. My personal favorite is a planetary gear set. I have
often wondered about adapting as set from a drag racing transmission. It
is a manual transmission with stacked sets of gears and is designed to
handle 1200 + horsepower. This is all of course just my opinion and
should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Matt Kirk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on engine choice |
Did I miss something or what? How much does this engine weigh? Looks like
a candidate for a prsu to allow more rpms to push it up the power scale
some. Why do you not want a psru?...
John W
-----Original Message-----
From: william hutson <wihutson(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question on engine choice
>Gang,
> I have been reading with great interest all the e-mail concerning
>the Air Camper for a few weeks now. One of the topics I'm really
>interested in is the choice of engines. Now before I really get
>started, I must tell you all that I have not ever built anything larger
>than a 1/4 scale RC, nor have I ever converted an auto enigne for
>Aircraft use. Right now, I'm just at the planning stages for my piet,
>so please bear with me.
> The other day I was thinking of what type of engine to use and I
>began by making a list of what I thought the engine should be able to
>do. The list went something like this:
> - Weigh no more than a Model A. Approx 250lbs.
> - Produce the required HP at an engine/propeller friendly RPM.
>Somewhere between 2000 and 2800 rpm.
> - Be a relativily new product
> - Parts must be easily obtained.
> - Inexpensive would be nice.
> - Not require a PSRU
> - Be very,very,very reliable!!!
>Armed with these requirements I started searching the net and came
>across what I believe is exactly what I need. Attached (I hope) is a
>HP/Torque/RPM graph. I added some lines representing some target RPM's
>and their associated HP ratings. If the attachment doesn't work,
>here's what I found:
> RPM HP
> 2050 62.5
> 2500 75
> 2800 87.5
>Obviously these figures look great! What is even better is that this
>engine developes max torque, 155lbs ft at about 2500. The engine is
>the 2.4L L4 LD9 by General Motors.
> Armed with this info, I then turned to propellers. I first looked
>at Eric Cluttons book and then at Ed Sturba's web site and took the
>averages and came up with a 72 * 35 inch prop. The mathmatical
>performance of this prop is:
> RPM Approx Speed
>These figures also look really good! At these rpms the engine should
>be very reliable and last a very long time.
> Now here's my question. What am I missing? Being as
>inexperienced as I am, I'm of the belief that if it would work, someone
>else would have already came up with it.
> Food for thought anyway.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
B. Derringer wrote "what ever happened to the Vega Piet from some
years ago" I would imagine the same thing that happened to all the
Vega's from some years ago! I owned a 1974 Vega, Worst car Chevy ever
built. I think it alone was the the reason Japan kicked Detroit's butt
back in the 70's. still, I remember seeing pictures of several airplanes
with that horrible engine in it. If any one is considering using a Vega
motor these days, Please get mental help. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Weikel <jandd(at)maverickbbs.com> |
Leon,
I didn't respond because I seem to over react concerning the Vega. I'm glad
to see that perhaps I am not the only one with a low opinion of the Vega.
The only Vegas I have seen in years are in wrecking yards with the cylinder
head off. Amazing that they ever sold any at all....
John W
-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:04 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Chevy Vega
B. Derringer wrote "what ever happened to the Vega Piet from some
years ago" I would imagine the same thing that happened to all the
Vega's from some years ago! I owned a 1974 Vega, Worst car Chevy ever
built. I think it alone was the the reason Japan kicked Detroit's butt
back in the 70's. still, I remember seeing pictures of several airplanes
with that horrible engine in it. If any one is considering using a Vega
motor these days, Please get mental help. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B and V Dearinger <dearinge(at)iocc.com> |
The worst car I ever owned was a corvair.The vega was probably in second
place.I have flown 150 hours with a corvair.The main problem with the
corvair we used was that it had a short stroke and had to use a small
prop and turn high rpms to make horsepower.The vega has aluminum
cylinder bores in the block that were a nightmare in a car but steel
sleeves can be installed in it correcting that problem.They also blew a
lot of headgaskets and gm finally perfected that about the time people
quit buying them.The later models (75-77) had large main bearings and
the stroke is greater than the bore creating an engine with a torque
peak at 2000 rpm.Bill
The worst car I ever owned was a corvair.The vega
was probably
in second place.I have flown 150 hours with a corvair.The main problem
with the
corvair we used was that it had a short stroke and had to use a small
prop and
turn high rpms to make horsepower.The vega has aluminum cylinder
bores in
the block that were a nightmare in a car but steel sleeves can be
installed in
it correcting that problem.They also blew a lot of headgaskets and gm
finally
perfected that about the time people quit buying them.The later models
(75-77)
had large main bearings and the stroke is greater than the bore creating
an
engine with a torque peak at 2000 rpm.Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael King <mikek(at)nstar.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A ride with Robert H. |
Tom,
That depends on how many folks respond and
where they are located. We will determine a central
location as to attract as many pilots and planes as
possible.
Please forward your phone number and / or address
so we can contact you with final details.
Thanks again Tom..
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas
>Mike,
>
>A Texas Piet fly-in sounds like a great idea. Where and when?
>
>
> Tom Travis
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu> |
The Piet Scout that had a Vega engine was built by Forrest Lovely in MN.
It was later converted to an "A" Ford and now belongs to the Air Power
Museum in IA. It was disassembled during the AAA-APM fly-in to have a
new gear made for it.
B and V Dearinger wrote:
> Does anyone know what happened to the chev vega powered piet that was
> at Oshkosh in the early 70's?Bill
--
David B.Schober, CPE
Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
Fairmont State College
National Aerospace Education Center
1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive
Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
(304) 842-8300
The Piet Scout that had a Vega engine was built by Forrest Lovely in MN.
It was later converted to an "A" Ford and now belongs to the Air Power
Museum in IA. It was disassembled during the AAA-APM fly-in to have a new
gear made for it.
B and V Dearinger wrote:
Does anyone
know what happened to the chev vega powered piet that was at Oshkosh in
the early 70's?Bill
--
David B.Schober, CPE
Instructor, Aviation Maintenance
Fairmont State College
National Aerospace Education Center
1050 East Benedum Industrial Drive
Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503
(304) 842-8300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clay Spurgeon <cspurgeon(at)baseballexp.com> |
| Subject: | Unsubscribe Piet |
unsubscribe PIET
Director of Marketing & Merchandising
Baseball Express, Inc.
210-348-7000 X4300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com |
| Subject: | Re: Neutral Axis |
The Neutral Axis of a symetrical spar (either a plain beam or a routed beam
that is the same top and bottom) is the center of the spar.
Mike Bell
Columbia,SC
Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/12/99 09:38:13 PM
Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)...
David,
I've done something stupid I saved the neutral axis
of my spar on my hard drive and my son
formatted it and erased it. Yes I know that you went to a lot
of trouble to find this for me but if
would do it again I'll copy it to a floppy
immediately. You know they say insanity
is doing the same thing over again and again \
expecting different results So if yak rather
not I understand. I am finally ready to assemble
the wing and I don't know where to bore the holes
for hardware.
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 4:20 PM
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
> This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate
> any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,
> or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or
> what relation the person has to certifications.
>
> I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging
> for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.
>
> Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these
> discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.
> Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something
> out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....
>
> ....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .
>
>
> Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?
>
>
=======
> Dick Dery wrote:
>
=======
> Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt,
as
> long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.
> As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the
> service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being
paid
> to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that
> the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The
FAA
> doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an
> aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing
as
> being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be
> PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.
>
>
=======
=
> David Scott wrote:
>
=======
=
> This is a quick note -->
>
> Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).
>
> The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying
an experimental,
> however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:
>
>
> and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.
>
> But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.
>
> The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge -->
consequences could be legally
> devastating.
>
> Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation
>
> David Scott
> CFII
>
> REF: 14CFR91.319
> ----------------------
> [Code of Federal Regulations]
> [Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]
> [Revised as of January 1, 1999]
> >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
> [CITE: 14CFR91.319]
>
> [Page 219-220]
>
>
> CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
>
> PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents
>
>
> Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations.
>
> (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate--
> (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
> or
> (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
> (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
> shown that--
> (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
> speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
> (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
> design features.
> (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
> operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
> experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
> airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
> particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
> a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
> terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
> safety in air commerce.
> (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
> certificate shall--
> (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft;
> (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
> authorized by the Administrator; and
> (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
> aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
> operating control towers.
> (e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
> Administrator considers necessary, including
>
> [[Page 220]]
>
> limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
>
> (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
> 2120-0005)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com |
II remember that about the Vega also, and I didn't own one. The engine, I
believe, was an aluminum block WITHOUT steel liners. They used some sort of
hardening process on the cylinder walls instead. This may have been a major
contributor to its early demise. I don't think that this engine was known for
its longevity.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/13/99 06:01:11 AM
Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Chevy Vega
B. Derringer wrote "what ever happened to the Vega Piet from some
years ago" I would imagine the same thing that happened to all the
Vega's from some years ago! I owned a 1974 Vega, Worst car Chevy ever
built. I think it alone was the the reason Japan kicked Detroit's butt
back in the 70's. still, I remember seeing pictures of several airplanes
with that horrible engine in it. If any one is considering using a Vega
motor these days, Please get mental help. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Speaking of the Sky Gypsy. I just ran across the article yesterday in the
1985 Sport Aviation, about the Sky Gypsy.
In the article Frank Pavliga talked about how well the plane performed.
Said it performed better than a Cub on climb. I've also heard several
people at the Benton flyin talk about not wanting to us a Ford 'A' because
someone they knew could barely get there Piet off the ground with it. I'm
wondering what the differences are. The first thing that comes to mind is
weight. The Sky Gypsy weight was 683lbs.
Doug, what did your Piet weight? How does it perform with one/two
persons in it? How about anybody else?
The other thing that I've been wondering about it the fact that the Ford
model A has it's 'carb heat' on all the time.
I'm wondering how much power is being lost because of low air density
feeding the engine? If I left my carb heat on in most of the airplanes I've
owned it would cut my climb in half.
Also the picture of the Sky Gypsy showed its carb being mounted low under
the exhaust.
Just some thoughts....
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Myers
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet rims
>and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
>interest.
>Earl Myers-Ohio
>-----Original Message-----
>From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
>Subject: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>
>
>>Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke
wheel
>>hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>>
>>Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
>monthes
>>I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>>
>>These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>>
>>I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes,
unless
>>they are for motorcycles.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
In Pietenpol's Builder's manual it mentions that
Pietenpol did incorporate washout in his wings- about
3/8" to 1/2" as I recall from the literature.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Bob- Even though the cycle shop I purchased my rims and
ordered my spokes, tires, and tubes were very helpful, they
could not lace my wheels because of my hubs- they would not
fit in the lacing fixture- too wide.
Lacing isn't too difficult and truing took me about 2 hours per
wheel. Once the excess threads were ground off inside the rim
I took the rims back to the cycle shop and he had me run duct
tape over what was left of the nipple/ground threads, then he put
this big flat rubber band over that, then poweder and the tube and
tire and mounted it for 5 doallars. Worth it.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Cowling Alum Thickness |
I found .025" alum. MUCH easier to work with than .032"
for cockpit and cowling areas. In my case I used 2024-T3.
Just like the 1.7 oz fabric vs. the 2.whatever....it's MUCH easier
to work with....saves some weight....and is more than
adequate for the purpose.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
what is washout? or where can I look to learn about
washout?
---Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> In Pietenpol's Builder's manual it mentions that
> Pietenpol did incorporate washout in his wings- about
> 3/8" to 1/2" as I recall from the literature.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>what is washout? or where can I look to learn about
>washout?
If you rig your Piet wing with both the rear strut and
front strut being exactly the same length, then picture
adding a small amount of length to the rear strut, it
would push the last few ribs towards the rear of the wing
by the aileron UP. If you have an adjustable rear
strut you can rig the wing flat, then turn that fork end
out a few threads until you get 3/8" or 1/2" washout or
upward bend out towards the aileron.
Cubs have it, Champs have it, etc....
We setup the Piet perfectly level then took a long
level on it to get the wing level or flat out by the lift
strut attatch points, then taped a 3/8" diam. bolt to
the TOP of the level. When you hold that up against
the bottom of the wing the level will be off by 3/8" so
you crank out that adjustable fork end fitting on the rear
strut until the level comes back to neutral, and whala,
you have 3/8" wash out at the tip. We used I think the
third rib in from the end to make our leveling and washout
measurements from.
Another handy rigging tool is a magnetic/plastic faced
angle finder device which has a pointer that always seeks
straight up or straight down, and tells you how many degrees
you are on any given part. We strapped this angle finder
(found at your hardware/Wal-Mart, etc. stores for under
15$...maybe even 7 or 8) to a long straight edge for
things like wing dihedral measurements, or washout.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com |
Washout is a little twist to the wing, downward at the leading edge at the
tis, that reduces the angle of incidence at the wing tips. By reducing this,
the wing tips will tend to stall later than the root and will allow the
ailerons to remain effective when you begin to stall.
Washin is just the reverse and would tend to cause your plane to spin in a
stall since the ailerons will have lost control already. This might be good
for an aerobatc plane, but I don't think that a Piet falls into this
category.
Which brings up another question. Has anyone spin tested their Piet? If so,
please tell us about it.
Thanks,
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/13/99 10:20:31 AM
Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Washout
what is washout? or where can I look to learn about
washout?
---Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> In Pietenpol's Builder's manual it mentions that
> Pietenpol did incorporate washout in his wings- about
> 3/8" to 1/2" as I recall from the literature.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
I installed a push/pull tube from the control stick to the elevator
walking beam.
No compelling reason to do so other than "I wanted to". Found out that rod
end bearings are a LOT more expensive than pulleys also.
If you do this, be careful not to change the control geometry.
Greg
>>> 09/12 3:14 PM >>>
Has anyone figured out how to install push rods on the controlls? Can it
be done.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Greg...another thing to throw into the mix on Sky Gypsy aside from that great
performance is that, per Frank Pavliga Sr. it is the extended (1966)
fuselage. I'm no aeronautical engineer but distribution of weight and the
moment arm of the stab be a factor. Since mine is the same configuration I
would certainly welcome comment from some of those who are more knowledgeable
in this regard.
Since I'm looking for advise I would also like to hear from any owners of
flying Piet Air Campers with rudder bars on which the cable attach point has
been moved inward toward the fulcrum. Big Jim Van Dervort wrote in the BPAN
that Bernie Pietenpol had recommended this to reduce PIO (pilot induced
oscillation, or just plain old over-controlling!) and I recall having read it
elsewhere ( I think in one of Mr. Pietenpol's articles. My concern is the
level of rudder authority available with this change. Gurus please respond!!
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling Alum Thickness |
Phew !!! Thanks Mike....I used .025 2024T3 and was afraid I had gone too
light and it wouldn't hold up. Good to hear that beauty of yours is the
same!!!
Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
Bob;
Here's the scoop:
Decker Cycles
410 W. Main St.
Canfield, Ohio 44406
330-533-9335
If you were to look on a map, they would be a tad south of Youngstown, Ohio
or nw of Pittsburg, Pa......
They get REAL busy in the spring as that is the atv season.....
Earl Myers
PS: need your snail address to get those drawings to you, offlist
-----Original Message-----
From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 11:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>Earl,
>Yes, I'm interested. You have no idea how long I've been dragging that
steel
>tube fuselage across the cement floor.
>
>Bob
>
>>From: Earl Myers
>>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:08:49 -0400
>>
>>Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet
rims
>>and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
>>interest.
>>Earl Myers-Ohio
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
>>Subject: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>
>>
>> >Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke
>>wheel
>> >hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>> >
>> >Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
>>monthes
>> >I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>> >
>> >These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>> >
>> >I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes,
>>unless
>> >they are for motorcycles.
>> >
>> >Bob
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com> |
Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad package. My Idea was to use thus
as a template for the rib jig. It also
helps me understand how things go together. I found two small problems
that I wonder if others have found.
I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the rib. Did I miss something?
There is a demintion missing on the foil section. At the front of the foil
the plans show the height if the top of the
last station but not the height of the foil above the datum line. I guess
you could just follow the curve.
Thanks Marc Davis
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
For anyones's info, I have the Sky Gypsy Ford engine sitting in my shop just
as it was when in the plane. That engine was heavy and never set up right
from the gitgo. Will Graff's Ford engine performs flawlessly all the time
altho it has two magnetos.........dual ignition. A BIG difference in these
two engines just as there is a big difference in my Champ's 0-200...when I
bought it and what it is now. Wouldn't believe it to be the same engine! All
depends on how it is set up, irregardless of what engine it is.
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 10:03 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>Speaking of the Sky Gypsy. I just ran across the article yesterday in the
>1985 Sport Aviation, about the Sky Gypsy.
>In the article Frank Pavliga talked about how well the plane performed.
>Said it performed better than a Cub on climb. I've also heard several
>people at the Benton flyin talk about not wanting to us a Ford 'A' because
>someone they knew could barely get there Piet off the ground with it. I'm
>wondering what the differences are. The first thing that comes to mind is
>weight. The Sky Gypsy weight was 683lbs.
>
> Doug, what did your Piet weight? How does it perform with one/two
>persons in it? How about anybody else?
>
>The other thing that I've been wondering about it the fact that the Ford
>model A has it's 'carb heat' on all the time.
>I'm wondering how much power is being lost because of low air density
>feeding the engine? If I left my carb heat on in most of the airplanes
I've
>owned it would cut my climb in half.
>Also the picture of the Sky Gypsy showed its carb being mounted low under
>the exhaust.
>
>
>Just some thoughts....
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Earl Myers
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:46 PM
>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>
>
>>Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet
rims
>>and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
>>interest.
>>Earl Myers-Ohio
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
>>Subject: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>
>>
>>>Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke
>wheel
>>>hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>>>
>>>Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
>>monthes
>>>I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>>>
>>>These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>>>
>>>I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes,
>unless
>>>they are for motorcycles.
>>>
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures. |
I like the pictures, Interesting to see that people bring parts of
projects. That is good because the only Fly-In I have gone to was
connected to the Edwards Air Show and the EAA Chap brought in planes to
display by invitation only, If it was not a 50,000 RV or Laincare it
didn't get in. I didn't join the club because of that.
So Good, I can at least take my unfinished plane (Plane's) to the show
to show my hard work. Someday we plane to have a large 5th wheel Toy
trailer to Go.
Thanks for putting them up.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Yotz
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 8:58 AM
Subject: Benton Fly-In Pictures.
I posted some of my digital camera pictures to my web page.
If anyone is interest here is the link:
http://www.kans.com/gyachts/
I would also like email identifying people in the pictures. I'll then
add a note to each picture.
Greg Yotz
Making sawdust....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Wil Graff's Ford Engine |
Earl Myers is correct bigtime when he says Wil Graff's
Piet Ford runs flawlessly. You are talking about a guy
who has been restoring Ford cars for years and years.
He knows his stuff. Wil is in Wadsworth Ohio
and a Wadsworth EAA chapter member.
Another guy who is a Ford genius is Lowell Frank from
Wisconsin. Lowell Frank has built two Piets- one with
a inverted Funk engine still running strong after 10 years
without being touched...now owned by JoBeth and Paul
Barrett of WI, and Lowell's dark blue Ford speedster
Piet which he still flies. Both of Lowells planes were at
Osh. for the 70 yr. Anniv. Look in back issues of the BPAN
for a great article which Lowell wrote on how he does
what he does. The Fords can be and should be reliable
and somewhat powerful if you get with the right folks and
do it the way they do it.
Earl Myers is correct bigtime when he says Wil Graff's
Piet Ford runs flawlessly. You are talking about a guy
who has been restoring Ford cars for years and years.
He knows his stuff. Wil is in Wadsworth Ohio
and a Wadsworth EAA chapter member.
Another guy who is a Ford genius is Lowell Frank from
Wisconsin. Lowell Frank has built two Piets- one with
a inverted Funk engine still running strong after 10 years
without being touched...now owned by JoBeth and Paul
Barrett of WI, and Lowell's dark blue Ford speedster
Piet which he still flies. Both of Lowells planes were at
Osh. for the 70 yr. Anniv. Look in back issues of the BPAN
for a great article which Lowell wrote on how he does
what he does. The Fords can be and should be reliable
and somewhat powerful if you get with the right folks and
do it the way they do it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower(at)informador.com.mx> |
| Subject: | Re: looking for project |
>I'm looking for a Piet project that has been started and not finished ,
>or has been damaged and needs rebuilding. During the last couple of days
>there have been a few letters about these type of projects here. If
>anyone can forward information on any of this type of project I would
>appreciate it. I would be especially interested about one that is built
>using T-88 and corvair powered.
>Thanks in advance for any and all help.
>Autry W. "Bud" Leonard
>233 Angle Road
>West Seneca, New York 14224-4347
>716-674-5246
>
Reading this post got me an idea, there has to be lots of unfinished
projects around, what about using Richard's page to do something to find a
new "father" for those projects... in case of dead of the builder, maybe
someone of the list can help the family in getting a fair price out of it,
and of course get a complete Piet in the air.
Every body happy....
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ribs and spars |
Marc,
I ran into this just last week. Had all ribs made from the full sized print,
supplied by Don P. Used a "dummy " spar piece to clean up all the spar
slots where the spar goes thru the ribs, and found this. Instead of beveling
the spar top, I drew the notch on the rib and filed it out. Only took a
few minutes each. now all the ribs are glued to spars.
I'm not sure what changed from the original concept, but thats the way I
delt with it.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Davis, Marc <marc.davis(at)intel.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and spars
>Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad package. My Idea was to use
thus
>as a template for the rib jig. It also
>helps me understand how things go together. I found two small problems
>that I wonder if others have found.
>
>I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the rib. Did I miss
something?
>
>
>There is a demintion missing on the foil section. At the front of the foil
>the plans show the height if the top of the
>last station but not the height of the foil above the datum line. I guess
>you could just follow the curve.
>
>Thanks Marc Davis
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Ribs and spars |
Thanks Walter
Do you have any concerns about reducing the tensile strength of the cap
strips? I guess this would only be a problem if you were
pulling negative G's.
Marc Davis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc,
I ran into this just last week. Had all ribs made from the full sized print,
supplied by Don P. Used a "dummy " spar piece to clean up all the spar
slots where the spar goes thru the ribs, and found this. Instead of beveling
the spar top, I drew the notch on the rib and filed it out. Only took a
few minutes each. now all the ribs are glued to spars. I'm not sure what
changed from the original concept, but thats the way I delt with it.
walt
--------------------------------
>Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad package. My Idea was to
use
thus
>as a template for the rib jig. It also
>helps me understand how things go together. I found two small
problems
>that I wonder if others have found.
>
>I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the rib. Did I miss
something?
>
>
>There is a demintion missing on the foil section. At the front of
the foil
>the plans show the height if the top of the
>last station but not the height of the foil above the datum line.
I guess
>you could just follow the curve.
>
>Thanks Marc Davis
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate--
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
1. NO EXCEPTIONS ON WHO
First, the regulation says "No Person" which specifically means
without exception regarding owner, operator, pilot in command,
instructor pilot, etc ....
2. AIRCRAFT OPERATION W/O EXCEPTION OF PURPOSE
Second, the regulation states "an aircraft that has
an experimental ceritificate" which specifically means any aircraft
which has the certification under "experimental." Nothing is
excluded concerning operations such as instruction.
3. AIRCRAFT DOES THE CARRYING
Third, the statement is "carrying persons or property for compensation..."
It is not the people doing the carrying, but the aircraft. English language
construction can be confusing, but people operate, aircraft carry...
4. COMPENSATION OR HIRE - EXCLUDES NOTHING
Forth, the "for compensation or hire" does not exclude who or what
or how the compensation is obtained. If the compensation is dependent
on aircraft operation, the regulation does not exclude any operations
for compensation purposes. It is without exception regardless of
operation types or purpose.
I hope this helps. The ultimate test is at an NTSB hearing with the FAA
working towards a suspension ruling.
David Scott 13 Sep 99 15:20
P.S. Incidently, in response to commercial licensing, all of this comes from
my understandings while gaining my certificate from the FAA FSDO office.
You might notice that for the "carrying persons or property for compensation or
hire" applies
to standard certificated aircraft requirements also. There is to be a 100hr
inspection met for any carrying of persons or property for hire. So, the age old
question popped for the instructor taking the oral exam is: Can an instructor
charge for instruction in an aircraft which does not meet the 100hr inspection
requirement?
>
> Subject: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)...
> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>
> David,
>
> I guess I don't see how 91.319 prohibits a flight instructor from being
> paid for his services in a Pietenpol. The "for compensation or hire" refers
> to providing transportation of passengers, or property. This was dealt with
> in all the Commercial Pilot Certificatef we had to learn, "holding yourself
> out for hire" and all that. An instrucional flight doesn't have this as it's
> purpose. A CFI isn't being paid to be PIC, just to instruct.
>
> I don't see the hard facts in 91.319 for preventing paid instruction in an
> experimental. I do agree however, it's very wise to investigate for
> yourself, things that you see on discussion groups.
>
> Now, as for Berea, isn't that the tarpits in southern California:-)
>
> Gary Meadows
> Agreeing to Disagree:-)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures. |
Your welcome. And frankly I wouldn't join a club like that either.
That is exactly why I had a long conversation with Paul P. at Sun-n-Fun
this year. He has started a new organization for the 'old' type of
homebuilders. I think he was getting fedup with the 'big money'
attitude to.
I enjoy looking at parts and sitting in partial fuselages almost as much
as the whole plane.
With the parts I can appreciate a guys woodmanship and not just the
paint job.
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Brimhall
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures.
I like the pictures, Interesting to see that people bring parts of
projects. That is good because the only Fly-In I have gone to was
connected to the Edwards Air Show and the EAA Chap brought in planes to
display by invitation only, If it was not a 50,000 RV or Laincare it
didn't get in. I didn't join the club because of that.
So Good, I can at least take my unfinished plane (Plane's) to the
show to show my hard work. Someday we plane to have a large 5th wheel
Toy trailer to Go.
Thanks for putting them up.
Gordon
From: Greg Yotz
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 8:58 AM
Subject: Benton Fly-In Pictures.
I posted some of my digital camera pictures to my web page.
If anyone is interest here is the link:
http://www.kans.com/gyachts/
I would also like email identifying people in the pictures.
I'll then add a note to each picture.
Greg Yotz
Making sawdust....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
You seem very knowledgable. What about the continuious carb heat issue?
Wouldn't I be better off making a controllable carb heat box with fresh air
an option. I also want to put an aircleaner on it! I can't believe it is
the best practice to operate an aircraft engine on grass and dirt fields
with no aircleaner.....
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Myers
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>For anyones's info, I have the Sky Gypsy Ford engine sitting in my shop
just
>as it was when in the plane. That engine was heavy and never set up right
>from the gitgo. Will Graff's Ford engine performs flawlessly all the time
>altho it has two magnetos.........dual ignition. A BIG difference in these
>two engines just as there is a big difference in my Champ's 0-200...when I
>bought it and what it is now. Wouldn't believe it to be the same engine!
All
>depends on how it is set up, irregardless of what engine it is.
>Earl Myers
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 10:03 AM
>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>
>
>>Speaking of the Sky Gypsy. I just ran across the article yesterday in the
>>1985 Sport Aviation, about the Sky Gypsy.
>>In the article Frank Pavliga talked about how well the plane performed.
>>Said it performed better than a Cub on climb. I've also heard several
>>people at the Benton flyin talk about not wanting to us a Ford 'A' because
>>someone they knew could barely get there Piet off the ground with it. I'm
>>wondering what the differences are. The first thing that comes to mind is
>>weight. The Sky Gypsy weight was 683lbs.
>>
>> Doug, what did your Piet weight? How does it perform with one/two
>>persons in it? How about anybody else?
>>
>>The other thing that I've been wondering about it the fact that the Ford
>>model A has it's 'carb heat' on all the time.
>>I'm wondering how much power is being lost because of low air density
>>feeding the engine? If I left my carb heat on in most of the airplanes
>I've
>>owned it would cut my climb in half.
>>Also the picture of the Sky Gypsy showed its carb being mounted low under
>>the exhaust.
>>
>>
>>Just some thoughts....
>>
>>Greg Yotz
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Earl Myers
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>
>>
>>>Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet
>rims
>>>and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
>>>interest.
>>>Earl Myers-Ohio
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
>>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
>>>Subject: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>>
>>>
>>>>Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke
>>wheel
>>>>hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>>>>
>>>>Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
>>>monthes
>>>>I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>>>>
>>>>These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>>>>
>>>>I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes,
>>unless
>>>>they are for motorcycles.
>>>>
>>>>Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures. |
Your right about Pauls new org, I'm SAA member # 952
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Yotz
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures.
Your welcome. And frankly I wouldn't join a club like that either.
That is exactly why I had a long conversation with Paul P. at Sun-n-Fun
this year. He has started a new organization for the 'old' type of
homebuilders. I think he was getting fedup with the 'big money'
attitude to.
I enjoy looking at parts and sitting in partial fuselages almost as
much as the whole plane.
With the parts I can appreciate a guys woodmanship and not just the
paint job.
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Brimhall
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Benton Fly-In Pictures.
I like the pictures, Interesting to see that people bring parts of
projects. That is good because the only Fly-In I have gone to was
connected to the Edwards Air Show and the EAA Chap brought in planes to
display by invitation only, If it was not a 50,000 RV or Laincare it
didn't get in. I didn't join the club because of that.
So Good, I can at least take my unfinished plane (Plane's) to the
show to show my hard work. Someday we plane to have a large 5th wheel
Toy trailer to Go.
Thanks for putting them up.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Yotz
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 8:58 AM
Subject: Benton Fly-In Pictures.
I posted some of my digital camera pictures to my web page.
If anyone is interest here is the link:
http://www.kans.com/gyachts/
I would also like email identifying people in the pictures. I'll
then add a note to each picture.
Greg Yotz
Making sawdust....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Ribs and spars |
that was my thought exactly. we are playing with a
major structural componant here. I think I would have
notched or beveled the spar instead. of course the
glue makes it a part of the spar. just my thinking, I
would check with somebody with more experience than me.
---"Davis, Marc" wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Walter
>
> Do you have any concerns about reducing the tensile
strength of the cap
> strips? I guess this would only be a problem if
you were
> pulling negative G's.
>
> Marc Davis
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Marc,
> I ran into this just last week. Had all ribs made
from the full sized print,
> supplied by Don P. Used a "dummy " spar piece to
clean up all the spar
> slots where the spar goes thru the ribs, and found
this. Instead of beveling
> the spar top, I drew the notch on the rib and filed
it out. Only took a
> few minutes each. now all the ribs are glued to
spars. I'm not sure what
> changed from the original concept, but thats the
way I delt with it.
> walt
> --------------------------------
>
> >Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad
package. My Idea was to
> use
> thus
> >as a template for the rib jig. It also
> >helps me understand how things go together. I
found two small
> problems
> >that I wonder if others have found.
> >
> >I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the
rib. Did I miss
> something?
> >
> >
> >There is a demintion missing on the foil section.
At the front of
> the foil
> >the plans show the height if the top of the
> >last station but not the height of the foil above
the datum line.
> I guess
> >you could just follow the curve.
> >
> >Thanks Marc Davis
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet wingtip |
Just remember Murphy's law. In this case, the stronger the wing tip, the
harder you will hit it ;-).
Ken
On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, kyle ray wrote:
> Has anyone out there in (PAN) Pietenpol Area Network ever
> reinforced the outer rib in the event of a ground loop? I was
> considering extruding a small piece of aluminum in case the wing
> tip hit the run way may be it would act as a skid and prevent damage?
>
> Russell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Piet wingtip
>
>
> > To make my wingtip bow I took a long piece of plywood and laid out
> > a wing rib (already built) on it and traced it out...including the points
> > where the two spars and LE and TE centerlines are. I purchased cheap
> > pine lattice at the DIY store as I recall 1/4" x 1.5 or 2.0" wide and
> without
> > steam or water just bent them by hand to the 'centerline' and had a
> > helper draw a pencil line along one edge. Another line two thicknesses
> > of the wood I chose above and below gave me a guide to work from.
> > I drove 6 penny or so nails along the top curved line and bottom curved
> > line and just lathered up one lattice strip at a time an stuck it in my
> > nail lined 'jig'. I snipped off the nail heads with a pair of diagonals
> to
> > make
> > the pieces go in and out easier. Each of the four lattice pieces was
> T-88'ed
> > and slipped into place. It took a wood block and mallet to force the last
> one
> > into my 'jig'. Before any gluing took place I laid Saran wrap over the
> > jig, pressed
> > it down over the nails so I could use the jig twice.
> > Once dry I ran the 1" thick laminated wingtip bow thru my table router
> > using a
> > 1/2" radius round over bit on the outside of the bow to make a nice
> rounded
> > edge.
> > The rest was planed down and sanded smooth. It took two trys, two
> different
> > jigs, to get these bows to line up with the LE, TE, and two spars, but
> the end
> > result was worth the effort. Strong as can be too.
> >
> > Mike C.
> >
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ribs and spars |
Marc,
We ran into the same problem and we tapered the top of the aft spar to
fit. Not that much wood was removed and as we are using the 1" spar
instead of the 3/4" a lot of guys are using, we're not concerned. The
wing really looks great with all the ribs slid on.
John Langston
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
There was a article in Sport Aviation several years ago about shoulder
harnesses. It was written by a doctor and he told of how these over the
shoulder from below harnesses will compress and even break your back in
case of sudden stoppage. We don't plan on installing them in our plane.
John Langston
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet wingtip |
Russel,
I haven't seen any reinforced wing tips or any installed with scuff
plates, but I was called upon to submit an insurance bid to repair a
damaged wing tip on a Piet (actually a GN-1) that had groundlooped. The
tip damage was mostly just fabric work, but two ribs about a third of the
way from the tip were broken on top from the compression. I didn't get
the job, but there wasn't all that much damage.
John Langston
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Beautiful Wood Work |
Greg,
I flew in a Model A powered Piet with clear doped wings at Brodhead in
'95. I had seen pictures of this particular Piet in Sport Aviation
several years before, so it was not a new airplane. UV does affect and
will deteriorate any fabric exposed to the rays of the sun. Therefore the
fabric won't last as long. However, I talked to the pilot who claimed the
original fabric had lasted for several years as the plane was seldom out
in the sun for long. I believe he said the original lasted ten years.
It did look neat to see that thing fly overhead with all the ribs and
whatnot in view. I really enjoyed the ride.
John Langston
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
unsubscribe-panic28(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Ribs and spars |
John
Thanks for the feed back. When building up your spar did you give any
thought to the idea of a built up spar instead of a solid one? Finding
one
piece of wood long and nice enough for a spar seems like a challenge.
Marc Davis
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Marc,
We ran into the same problem and we tapered the top of the aft spar to
fit.
Not that much wood was removed and as we are using the 1" spar instead
of
the =BE" a lot of guys are using, we're not concerned. The wing really
looks
great with all the ribs slid on.
John Langston
__________
<http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj> .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ribs and spars |
Marc,
That crossed my mind, but I keep thinking about Tony B.'s book that shows
high performance airplanes where the wing is built with ribs in three
pieces , nailed and glued to the front,,,,, center,,,,, and rear of the
spars( the ribs are in three separate pieces) they don't seem to come apart.
I thought that when I filed out the first one , that the rib would go out of
shape, but it didn't.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Davis, Marc <marc.davis(at)intel.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Ribs and spars
>
>
>Thanks Walter
>
>Do you have any concerns about reducing the tensile strength of the cap
>strips? I guess this would only be a problem if you were
>pulling negative G's.
>
>Marc Davis
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>Marc,
>I ran into this just last week. Had all ribs made from the full sized
print,
>supplied by Don P. Used a "dummy " spar piece to clean up all the spar
>slots where the spar goes thru the ribs, and found this. Instead of
beveling
>the spar top, I drew the notch on the rib and filed it out. Only took a
>few minutes each. now all the ribs are glued to spars. I'm not sure what
>changed from the original concept, but thats the way I delt with it.
>walt
>--------------------------------
>
> >Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad package. My Idea was to
>use
>thus
> >as a template for the rib jig. It also
> >helps me understand how things go together. I found two small
>problems
> >that I wonder if others have found.
> >
> >I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the rib. Did I miss
>something?
> >
> >
> >There is a demintion missing on the foil section. At the front of
>the foil
> >the plans show the height if the top of the
> >last station but not the height of the foil above the datum line.
>I guess
> >you could just follow the curve.
> >
> >Thanks Marc Davis
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
David,
I assume that the first statements are the regs. and the second section are
your interpritations. If so ,,,I don't agree. It means that " you can't
make money on an experimental airplane" that's all. I don't see where it
limits if you need a check ride or a BFR in your Piet. Isn't it common
sense that if you live in, let's say colorado , or Utah, and only fly your
own Aircamper, and you need a BFR. What are you to do,,,,hire, and check out
in another plane just to take your BFR? ???
I was the one who started this questioning on instruction in an experimental
plane,,,,,and never could even imagine the amount of interpritations to
all of this.
walt
" for hire " means the money comes from them to you,,,,,instruction from a
checkride is from you to him.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Scott
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)...
>Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations.
>
> (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
>certificate--
> (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
>
>1. NO EXCEPTIONS ON WHO
>
> First, the regulation says "No Person" which specifically means
> without exception regarding owner, operator, pilot in command,
> instructor pilot, etc ....
>
>2. AIRCRAFT OPERATION W/O EXCEPTION OF PURPOSE
>
> Second, the regulation states "an aircraft that has
> an experimental ceritificate" which specifically means any aircraft
> which has the certification under "experimental." Nothing is
> excluded concerning operations such as instruction.
>
>3. AIRCRAFT DOES THE CARRYING
>
> Third, the statement is "carrying persons or property for
compensation..."
> It is not the people doing the carrying, but the aircraft. English
language
> construction can be confusing, but people operate, aircraft carry...
>
>4. COMPENSATION OR HIRE - EXCLUDES NOTHING
>
> Forth, the "for compensation or hire" does not exclude who or what
> or how the compensation is obtained. If the compensation is
dependent
> on aircraft operation, the regulation does not exclude any operations
> for compensation purposes. It is without exception regardless of
> operation types or purpose.
>
>I hope this helps. The ultimate test is at an NTSB hearing with the FAA
>working towards a suspension ruling.
>
>David Scott 13 Sep 99 15:20
>
>P.S. Incidently, in response to commercial licensing, all of this comes
from
>my understandings while gaining my certificate from the FAA FSDO office.
>You might notice that for the "carrying persons or property for
compensation or hire" applies
>to standard certificated aircraft requirements also. There is to be a
100hr
>inspection met for any carrying of persons or property for hire. So, the
age old
>question popped for the instructor taking the oral exam is: Can an
instructor
>charge for instruction in an aircraft which does not meet the 100hr
inspection
>requirement?
>
>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)...
>> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
>> Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>> To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>
>> David,
>>
>> I guess I don't see how 91.319 prohibits a flight instructor from being
>> paid for his services in a Pietenpol. The "for compensation or hire"
refers
>> to providing transportation of passengers, or property. This was dealt
with
>> in all the Commercial Pilot Certificatef we had to learn, "holding
yourself
>> out for hire" and all that. An instrucional flight doesn't have this as
it's
>> purpose. A CFI isn't being paid to be PIC, just to instruct.
>>
>> I don't see the hard facts in 91.319 for preventing paid instruction in
an
>> experimental. I do agree however, it's very wise to investigate for
>> yourself, things that you see on discussion groups.
>>
>> Now, as for Berea, isn't that the tarpits in southern California:-)
>>
>> Gary Meadows
>> Agreeing to Disagree:-)
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Greg wrote quoting Frank Pavliga comparing a cub to Piet:
snip<>>
Question, what is so great about a cub? I flew cubs ( land & sea ) years
ago, other than legend, it doesn't have much going for it.
Mike B Piet 687MB ( Mr Sam )
Greg wrote quoting Frank Pavliga comparing a
cub
to Piet:
snipSaid it performed better than a
Cub on
climb.
Question, what is so great about a cub? I flew cubs ( land
sea )
years ago, other than legend, it doesn't have much going for it.
Mike B Piet 687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Copinfo <Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.com> |
Loved you comment. I agree, I've flown the J-3 and didn't think much of
it. I always like the Champ better. However, this Piet is more fun
than any tail dragger I've ever flown. In fact it ranks up there in fun
with the F-16, just not as fast.
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
snip<>>
Question, what is so great about a cub? I flew cubs ( land & sea )
years ago, other than legend, it doesn't have much going for it.
Mike B Piet 687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
while I am waiting for my wood to arrive. I've
started building the landing gear and control assbly.
would like to get some input on where a good source
is for 6 or 8 inch wheels and tires. I see some with
nicely designed aluminum wheels. It appears I need to
modify the gear to except whatever wheels I purchase.
I've seen both welded on threaded axles and bolt on
(looks like 4 bolts)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net> |
Cast iron sleeves could be put in the Vega..... I watched it being
done when visiting a friend's shop. The hole was bored to the actual
sleeve size, and the cylinder was then honed out considerably larger
than the actual sleeve size as per the sleeve manufacturer's
directions.... I couldn't believe it, but read the directions
myself.... the sleeves rattled around loose in the holes when he was
done..... I never heard the result. I don't think the Vega was an
inherently bad design, but there's something pretty bizzare about
making an aluminum block and using a cast iron head with it.
Probably the toughest engine to beat for power to weight ratio is
the Suzuki engine used in the Geo cars.... it is available in both 3
and 4 cylinder versions, and is very rugged. It is my opinion that
one of these could be used with a Rotax or 2SI reduction unit... the
ideal being the Rotax E drive with integral electric starter, and
rubber torsional damper. The 4 cylinder could be set up at under 200
lbs complete I suspect.
There once was an aircooled version of the Model A engine..... but
-----Original Message-----
From: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com <mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 6:31 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Chevy Vega
>II remember that about the Vega also, and I didn't own one. The
engine, I
>believe, was an aluminum block WITHOUT steel liners. They used some
sort of
>hardening process on the cylinder walls instead. This may have been
a major
>contributor to its early demise. I don't think that this engine was
known for
>its longevity.
>
>Mike Bell
>Columbia, SC
>
>
>Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/13/99 06:01:11 AM
>Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
>
>
>To: piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
>cc:
>
>Subject: Chevy Vega
>
>B. Derringer wrote "what ever happened to the Vega Piet from some
>years ago" I would imagine the same thing that happened to all the
>Vega's from some years ago! I owned a 1974 Vega, Worst car Chevy ever
>built. I think it alone was the the reason Japan kicked Detroit's
butt
>back in the 70's. still, I remember seeing pictures of several
airplanes
>with that horrible engine in it. If any one is considering using a
Vega
>motor these days, Please get mental help. Leon S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
In a message dated 9/13/99 3:55:09 PM Central Daylight Time, gyachts(at)kans.com
writes:
<< Wouldn't I be better off making a controllable carb heat box with fresh air
an option. I also want to put an aircleaner on it! I can't believe it is
the best practice to operate an aircraft engine on grass and dirt fields
with no aircleaner.....
>>
Greg....
I don't know much about model A's but I do know that dust and airborne
particles are the #1 enemy that causes engine wear. It winds up in the oil
and passes thru the oil pump and everywhere. It then abrades reciprocating
and rotating parts. You are right...this is a bigger issue on a grass/dirt
strip environment. In flight, dust is not really an issue unless you fly in
west Texas or New Mexico in dust storms. An air cleaner is a must in my
book. I am building up an A-75 continental, but my philosophy would be no
different with a model A, corvair, ...or heck...my lawn mower even.
On the carb heat issue, I'd try my best to come up with a manually
operated carb heat system if I were you. Its simple, but does add weight.
However, you more than make up for the extra weight with the extra few
horsepower gained for the carb heat OFF climbout. I heard someone at Benton
talking about a guy that has flown a corvair engine a lot without having ANY
carb heat. Does a stock corvair have some sort of carburator heating built
into the intake system? If not I hope this guy realizes he's asking for a
forced landing. I am assuming we needn't go into the physics discussion
about the 40 degree F temperature drop that occurs across a carburator throat.
Terry B
________________________________________________________________________________
Someone a few days ago was looking for Jim Vandervort. I saw his name on
rec.aviation.homebuilt, with the address of ww2385(at)dragonbbs.com.
Al Swanson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet wingtip |
In a message dated 9/13/99 5:49:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca writes:
<< Just remember Murphy's law. In this case, the stronger the wing tip, the
harder you will hit it ;-). >>
Build it light and to the plans. Don't forget...wood is quite flexible and
has a significant elastic region. Make it stiff and it will snap. Bernie
had a feel for what works. You'd be surprized how much flex a wingtip can
take in a groundloop. I've seen biplanes groundloop so hard the bottom wing
spar flexed as much as 20 degrees and flexed right back in shape with no spar
cracking. Ribs usually do take the punishment in a groundloop...but if you
go so far as to get a wingtip on a groundloop of a high wing airplane, you'd
probably be better off stopping to re-group anyway. Going thru the repair
process to patch up a couple of ribs might be just what it takes to sort out
what went wrong so as to avoid that situation again. Just a thought.
Terry B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe & Marian Beck <flyretina(at)feist.com> |
Out of country for 2 week medical mission project. Pietless!
unsubscribe-flyretina(at)feist.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
First, in answer to the very last question, no a plane doesn't necessarily
have to have a 100hr inspection for an instructor to be able to charge for
instruction in. If he supplies the plane for rent, then yes, it is
generating income and must get the 100hr.
An instructor can charge all day long in an airplane that is owned by the
student, or a third party, as long as it is not generating income. This was
all from the FSDO, CFI and examiner that I was working with as I was
completing my commercial ticket earlier this year.
Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate--
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
1. Okay
2. Okay
3. This is the point raised which contains the subtle and for some difficult
to decipher "English language" meaning of this FAR.
"English
language
construction can be confusing, but people operate, aircraft carry..."
"English language constuction" aside, we have AGREEMENT! PEOPLE do OPERATE,
and AIRPLANES do CARRY, so when a person gives instruction for pay in the
owner's experimental, the AIRCRAFT is not being OPERATED for hire, since IT
is NOT carrying for compensation or hire.
Therefore, acknowledging that an AIRCRAFT has to CARRY for compensation
or hire, if no money passes hands for the aircraft, then there is no
violation! It is really very simple logic, after all!
If you try to charge rent for the experimental, or try to hang out your
shingle to charge for flights as a commercial pilot, then you are now in
violation of the FAR's.
4. Well, this has been dealt with, but for the sake of completeness:
"carrying persons or property for compensation or hire"
We've been told that "people operate, aircraft carry". In our case, since
the AIRCRAFT does not carry for hire - no money is changing hands for it's
use, then it isn't part of the compensation and does not figure into the
equation. Just don't charge someone to fly grandma to Peoria!
This really isn't that hard to understand, but I've been glad to share my
knowledge with anyone in the discussion that cares.
By now, I seriously doubt that anyone really does care about this particular
discussion, since this is a group with the mission of discussing our grand
ole plane, the Pietenpol!!! FAR discussions can be carried out on a NAFI
discussion group. (if there is one)
Out of respect for all the other Piet lovers out there, I'm retiring my
side of the thread, to continue on would be an exercise in poor taste.
By the way, my plans are headed my way, and my work table is under
construction! Let the sawdust fly!
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
The book 'Composite Construction for Homebuilt Aircraft' by Jack Lambie, is a
really good book on composites, but it also has MUCH info on aerodynamics,
construction, maintenance, repair,and How-To and design information. On page
31 it has illustrations of 5 different wing planforms, and shows the stall
progression of each type. The first is the rectangle wing - safe stall
pattern. The stall begins on the inboard section, and progresses outboard.
Because of this pattern, Washout is not needed on a hershybar wing planform.
Chuck Gantzer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal(at)earthlink.net> |
Good call Mike!
The plan was to introduce a large proportion of silica into the metal of the block.
Theoretically this was supposed to retain oil and offset the tendency for similar
metals to gall.
Everything wore quickly and when they got hot.... Seen any running lately?
*please* don't build an airplane around this motor.
LLN
mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com wrote:
> II remember that about the Vega also, and I didn't own one. The engine, I
> believe, was an aluminum block WITHOUT steel liners. They used some sort of
> hardening process on the cylinder walls instead. This may have been a major
> contributor to its early demise. I don't think that this engine was known for
> its longevity.
>
> Mike Bell
> Columbia, SC
>
> Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/13/99 06:01:11 AM
> Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
>
> To: piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
> cc:
>
> Subject: Chevy Vega
>
> B. Derringer wrote "what ever happened to the Vega Piet from some
> years ago" I would imagine the same thing that happened to all the
> Vega's from some years ago! I owned a 1974 Vega, Worst car Chevy ever
> built. I think it alone was the the reason Japan kicked Detroit's butt
> back in the 70's. still, I remember seeing pictures of several airplanes
> with that horrible engine in it. If any one is considering using a Vega
> motor these days, Please get mental help. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
>
> Loved you comment. I agree, I've flown the J-3 and didn't think much of it.
> I always like the Champ better. However, this Piet is more fun than any tail
> dragger I've ever flown. In fact it ranks up there in fun with the F-16,
> just not as fast.
> Tim Cunningham
Tim ! Wow, your statement above is exactly how I feel about the J-3/Champ.
Cubs are neat looking
and nostalgic but otherwise the Champ and Piet have it all wrapped up for me.
Mike C.
Loved you comment. I agree,
I've flown the J-3 and didn't think much of it. I always like the
Champ better. However, this Piet is more fun than any tail dragger
I've ever flown. In fact it ranks up there in fun with the F-16,
just not as fast.
Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com
Tim Cunningham
Tim ! Wow, your statement above is exactly how I feel
about the J-3/Champ. Cubs are neat looking
and nostalgic but otherwise the Champ and Piet have it all wrapped up for
me.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | User554784(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction in experimental aircraft. |
It is within the "legal" bounds of the FAR's to pay a flight instructor for
flight instruction received in a privately owned aircraft -- regardless of
the type certification, ownership or use. The question is whether or not the
AIRCRAFT is being used for "compensation or hire." In the case being
discussed, the aircraft IS NOT used for "compensation or hire," the
instructor is. As defined in Part 1 of the FAR's, "the test for
'compensation or hire,' is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental
to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for
profit." For the purposes of flight instruction, the use of a privately
owned experimental category aircraft is incidental to the flight instruction
given. Secondly, the owner of the aircraft is not receiving compensation for
the operation of his/her aircraft, the flight instructor is receiving the
compensation. Last, anyone who has engaged in building an Air Camper will
admit that it is a major enterprise -- for profit?? Certainly not monetary!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com |
| Subject: | RE: Ribs and spars |
The ribs are pretty overbuilt and I doubt a little notch that is subsequently
joined to the spar with glue will be missed at all. Notching the spar
however, would be taking away wood from the highest stressed point of spar, the
top cap strip. I think that Walt is right on in his thinking.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
Maiser(at)adena.byu.edu on 09/13/99 06:30:47 PM
Please respond to piet(at)byu.edu @ INTERNET
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Ribs and spars
that was my thought exactly. we are playing with a
major structural componant here. I think I would have
notched or beveled the spar instead. of course the
glue makes it a part of the spar. just my thinking, I
would check with somebody with more experience than me.
---"Davis, Marc" wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Walter
>
> Do you have any concerns about reducing the tensile
strength of the cap
> strips? I guess this would only be a problem if
you were
> pulling negative G's.
>
> Marc Davis
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Marc,
> I ran into this just last week. Had all ribs made
from the full sized print,
> supplied by Don P. Used a "dummy " spar piece to
clean up all the spar
> slots where the spar goes thru the ribs, and found
this. Instead of beveling
> the spar top, I drew the notch on the rib and filed
it out. Only took a
> few minutes each. now all the ribs are glued to
spars. I'm not sure what
> changed from the original concept, but thats the
way I delt with it.
> walt
> --------------------------------
>
> >Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad
package. My Idea was to
> use
> thus
> >as a template for the rib jig. It also
> >helps me understand how things go together. I
found two small
> problems
> >that I wonder if others have found.
> >
> >I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the
rib. Did I miss
> something?
> >
> >
> >There is a demintion missing on the foil section.
At the front of
> the foil
> >the plans show the height if the top of the
> >last station but not the height of the foil above
the datum line.
> I guess
> >you could just follow the curve.
> >
> >Thanks Marc Davis
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Tim wrote:
<>
Of course! Champ-no contest.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TXTdragger(at)aol.com |
the Champ is a lot better than to fly than Cub, but someone likes them (check
prices in Tade-a-plane) never understood what the deal was/is. Try taking
lessons from rear seat with no intercom........what a fire drill,
John D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Terry: At Bentonpietventure 99, Doug Bryant told me that upon landing
the exhaust pipes are just warm to the touch. If that's so, than not
last week. He said his A Piet performs well at 720 lbs. He said the
secret is higher compression(Al. head) Model B cam, and make a new
intake manifold so it can breath better. He used copper pipe fittings
from the hardware store. (plumbing section) Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TomTravis(at)aol.com |
The Champ is a better airplane for several reasons - more room, better
visibility, solo from the front where you can actually see, more stable, and
slightly faster. The Cub is more popular because so many people learned to
fly in them during WW11 in the CPT program and so many more were built than
the Champ.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Fwd: DFLY: Continental Engine Available] |
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:29:41 -0600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Patrick Hildebrand" <dfly(at)n2flying.com> |
| Subject: | DFLY: Continental Engine Available |
If anyone is interested I have a Continental 85 HP engine for sale. It is in very
good condition but was disassembled for inspection. It has a brand new set
of Slick mags with the blue harness. All accessories are included. Starter, Generator,
Fuel Pump, Carb, heat box, New plugs, engine mount, and even an exhaust
system with heat muff. I'd like about $4,000 U.S. for it. I also have a factory
cowling for the engine which I'm willing to negogiate at a real bargain.
---
Patrick Hildebrand
dfly(at)n2flying.com
What are you N2? Choose from 150 free e-mail addresses.
http://www.n2mail.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Davis, Marc" <marc.davis(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Ribs and spars |
Good point Walter, Lots to think about here.
Marc
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans [SMTP:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 6:08 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and spars
Marc,
That crossed my mind, but I keep thinking about Tony B.'s book that shows
high performance airplanes where the wing is built with ribs in three
pieces , nailed and glued to the front,,,,, center,,,,, and rear of the
spars( the ribs are in three separate pieces) they don't seem to come apart.
I thought that when I filed out the first one , that the rib would go out of
shape, but it didn't.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Davis, Marc <marc.davis(at)intel.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Ribs and spars
>
>
>Thanks Walter
>
>Do you have any concerns about reducing the tensile strength of the cap
>strips? I guess this would only be a problem if you were
>pulling negative G's.
>
>Marc Davis
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>Marc,
>I ran into this just last week. Had all ribs made from the full sized
print,
>supplied by Don P. Used a "dummy " spar piece to clean up all the spar
>slots where the spar goes thru the ribs, and found this. Instead of
beveling
>the spar top, I drew the notch on the rib and filed it out. Only took a
>few minutes each. now all the ribs are glued to spars. I'm not sure what
>changed from the original concept, but thats the way I delt with it.
>walt
>--------------------------------
>
> >Last night I drew the wing rib up on a cad package. My Idea was to
>use
>thus
> >as a template for the rib jig. It also
> >helps me understand how things go together. I found two small
>problems
> >that I wonder if others have found.
> >
> >I seems as though the rear spar won't fit in the rib. Did I miss
>something?
> >
> >
> >There is a demintion missing on the foil section. At the front of
>the foil
> >the plans show the height if the top of the
> >last station but not the height of the foil above the datum line.
>I guess
> >you could just follow the curve.
> >
> >Thanks Marc Davis
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!! |
It is best to operate with a controllable carb heat especially on a Ford,
needs all the hep ya can get it. The Sky Gypsy engine has an on/off carb
heat box taken from another engine and then cobbled to fit. I do remember
Frank saying that this engine, with a log style intake manifold, WAS VERY
prone to carb ice!!! I would also urge using a Bracket style filter element
or adapting an automotive style K&N Filter....both use a sticky oil coating
not unlike flypaper to trap dust but has a high pass ratio (lets in a lot of
air). My Champ has one and is on a grass airfield (with Sky Gypsy)...what a
difference! Continuous carb heat will insure no ice but will also insure
50-100 rpm drop as well. On a Ford, that is significant. Go with an on/off
type, easy to make. The hot air always is there, it is just dumped overboard
when not used. Most systems bypass the filter when using carb heat too.
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>You seem very knowledgable. What about the continuious carb heat issue?
>Wouldn't I be better off making a controllable carb heat box with fresh air
>an option. I also want to put an aircleaner on it! I can't believe it is
>the best practice to operate an aircraft engine on grass and dirt fields
>with no aircleaner.....
>
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Earl Myers
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:33 AM
>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>
>
>>For anyones's info, I have the Sky Gypsy Ford engine sitting in my shop
>just
>>as it was when in the plane. That engine was heavy and never set up right
>>from the gitgo. Will Graff's Ford engine performs flawlessly all the time
>>altho it has two magnetos.........dual ignition. A BIG difference in these
>>two engines just as there is a big difference in my Champ's 0-200...when I
>>bought it and what it is now. Wouldn't believe it to be the same engine!
>All
>>depends on how it is set up, irregardless of what engine it is.
>>Earl Myers
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 10:03 AM
>>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>
>>
>>>Speaking of the Sky Gypsy. I just ran across the article yesterday in
the
>>>1985 Sport Aviation, about the Sky Gypsy.
>>>In the article Frank Pavliga talked about how well the plane performed.
>>>Said it performed better than a Cub on climb. I've also heard several
>>>people at the Benton flyin talk about not wanting to us a Ford 'A'
because
>>>someone they knew could barely get there Piet off the ground with it.
I'm
>>>wondering what the differences are. The first thing that comes to mind
is
>>>weight. The Sky Gypsy weight was 683lbs.
>>>
>>> Doug, what did your Piet weight? How does it perform with one/two
>>>persons in it? How about anybody else?
>>>
>>>The other thing that I've been wondering about it the fact that the Ford
>>>model A has it's 'carb heat' on all the time.
>>>I'm wondering how much power is being lost because of low air density
>>>feeding the engine? If I left my carb heat on in most of the airplanes
>>I've
>>>owned it would cut my climb in half.
>>>Also the picture of the Sky Gypsy showed its carb being mounted low under
>>>the exhaust.
>>>
>>>
>>>Just some thoughts....
>>>
>>>Greg Yotz
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Earl Myers
>>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:46 PM
>>>Subject: Re: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bob, There is a place 30 miles from here that mounted tyres on my Piet
>>rims
>>>>and is lacing up a new set for Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy.....Advise of
>>>>interest.
>>>>Earl Myers-Ohio
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
>>>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>>>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 12:16 AM
>>>>Subject: More...Spoke Wheels...!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Does anybody on the list know of any company which will lace my spoke
>>>wheel
>>>>>hubs to motorcycle rims using custom spokes, with rolled threads?
>>>>>
>>>>>Buchanan's Spoke and Rim seems to be a dead issue, as for the last 2
>>>>monthes
>>>>>I have been writing them e-mails, and one letter, with no answer.
>>>>>
>>>>>These people won't even be polite enough to give me a reply !
>>>>>
>>>>>I can only assume that they are no longer in the business of spokes,
>>>unless
>>>>>they are for motorcycles.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
Aw, Come on. Lay off the Cub. It is a great plane and doesn't shouldn't be
put down. True, the Champ is a little faster, but the Cub is a little
slower (in stall, anyway). True, you fly solo from the front in a Champ,
but most of the people that the Cub was designed for were far more
comfortable flying solo from the rear. Many had grown up flying biplanes.
I seem to remember that the original price was also in favour of the Cub.
The ability to cruise " Low and Slow With the Door Open" is a real big
plus for the Cub. I had the pleasure of doing just that with a buddy of
mine in Nova Scotia in his 85 hp Cub. One of my more memorable flights.
I've also flown the descendants of both, the Citabria 7-ECA and the
PA-18-125. I much prefer the PA-18 and it is solo in the front. Climb,
take off and landing performance, handling, looks (IMHO), stall speed and
ruggedness were in the PA-18's favour. The 7-ECA was a little more
spacious, better control layout (didn't like the ignition and carb heat
being actuated "by feel" only ont he PA-18), better entry and egress,
better cruise and had aerobatic capabilities.
Let's face it, the Cub is an honest, good mannered plane with no real
quirks. On wheels, they perform as well as any 65 hp plane. On floats, and
with an 0-200, they are a fabulous little airplane. Finally, when its -20
out, nothing beats an enclosed cabin.
Ken "True Blue Cub Lover" Beanlands
On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Copinfo wrote:
> Loved you comment. I agree, I've flown the J-3 and didn't think much of
> it. I always like the Champ better. However, this Piet is more fun
> than any tail dragger I've ever flown. In fact it ranks up there in fun
> with the F-16, just not as fast. Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com Tim Cunningham
> Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510 snip<
> Cub on climb. >>>
>
> Question, what is so great about a cub? I flew cubs ( land & sea )
> years ago, other than legend, it doesn't have much going for it.
>
> Mike B Piet 687MB ( Mr Sam )
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
if you're looking to save some $, check out Central Air Parts in
Stauton, Ill. 618-635-3252 for good used and new componants..I got a
pair of cleveland 600x6 wheels, bolt on axles, tires and tubes and
brakes w/disc ( from a C172)) for $225
a little over a year ago.I did replace the bearings ($75) but all in all
a pretty good deal.
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
del magsam wrote:
> while I am waiting for my wood to arrive. I've
> started building the landing gear and control assbly.
> would like to get some input on where a good source
> is for 6 or 8 inch wheels and tires. I see some with
> nicely designed aluminum wheels. It appears I need to
> modify the gear to except whatever wheels I purchase.
> I've seen both welded on threaded axles and bolt on
> (looks like 4 bolts)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
The plywood seat in Piets is more comfortable than the
upholstered ones in Cubs.
In the back seat of a Cub, full up elevator rubs the underside
of the seat cushion so you can feel it and it seems like you are sitting on
the floor boards.
The front seat is a real treat to get it too. Narrow...your feet are
always hitting the front passenger and it's real easy to have your
heels hit the brakes when operating the rudder pedals from the
rear. Vis over the nose is squat from the rear seat and the front.
The Champ with the door off give you a gorgeous view outside- especially
when landing it from the rear seat. Nice oleo strut gear instead of the
bungee chord stiff Cub. The really annoying thing for me is that
to fly my Piet I have to push a J-3 out of the way, then back in the
hanger, then out again to get the Piet back in. I wish some rich airline
pilot would buy it and move it :))))
Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
interests me...just some more than others.
Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Carb heat return spring |
Something that I need to do and others might
consider is putting a return spring on your carb heat
damper lever. I've seen this on several planes and
what it insures you of is that in the event your carb
control cable breaks or comes loose somehow the
spring will move your damper to the 'hot' position
thus keeping the engine going. This has been on
my 'to do' list for too long. (65 Cont. air box)
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John_Duprey(at)VMED.ORG |
| Subject: | Mike Cuy in FLYING |
Check out October's issue of Flying page 73 has a photo of Mike Cuy's
Piet.
John Duprey
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ribs and spars |
Marc,
We did talk about using a built-up spar but decided not to. We've read so
much about not changing the plans that we decided to go ahead with the
original method. We did buy certified wood from Alexander Aircraft
Supply, ordering 4 pieces of 1" X 6" X 16' and glued two of them together
to form the spar. Obviously, we are making the one piece wing to save
weight. A change we did do, though, is that we spliced the spar per A.C.
43-13-1A instaed of as the plans show. We made a 10:1 splice and this
with the gussets all fit within the fuel tank bay. Also we are install
1/8" gussets under the wing attach fittings as per more modern methods.
Routing the spars also took a lot of weight off and it was obvious when
we picked up the spars upon completion.
__________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
OK, I didn't say it was PERFECT ;-). Besides, if you were to build a
homebuilt version, you could fix a lot of that ;-).
On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth? More specifically, does anyone know where
to get plans for such a plane? I know, they are a production plane, but
with many of them being restored in museums, someone must have access to
the blueprints or structural drawings. This is my all time favorite plane
and I would love to build a 100 % replica of teh bird. Construction on the
versions I've seen doesn't appear difficult and looks like it could easily
be reprodiced by someone with some engineering and homebuilding
experience, ie. ME.
I could see using one of the new Walter Lom 4 cylinder, inverted, inline
engines for power. They would fit nicely under that cowl. Basic structural
plans would be a good start. Wing rib layouts and spar details would be
useful as well. Control and fitting diagrams would be good, but not a
necessity. After all, most of the controls run outside the plane ;-).
Given an empty weight of around 1100 lbs, there is not a lot more to a
Tiger Moth than there is in a Citabria/Super Cub.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Ken
> Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
> interests me...just some more than others.
> Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
>
> On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom selleck
movie,
I think it was called "high road to china"
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
Ken Beanlands wrote:
On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom selleck
movie,
I think it was called "high road to china"
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: DFLY: Continental Engine Available] |
In a message dated 9/14/99 9:24:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
panzera(at)cnetech.com writes:
<< I also have a factory cowling for the engine which I'm willing to
negogiate at a real bargain.
--- >>
What Factory?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually. That movie is part
of my home collection.
Ken.
On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
>
>
> Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
>
> for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom selleck
> movie,
> I think it was called "high road to china"
> regards
> JoeC
> Zion, Illinois
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: "A" Carb heat |
In a message dated 9/14/99 8:23:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net writes:
<< Doug Bryant told me that upon landing
the exhaust pipes are just warm to the touch. If that's so, than not
much HP. would be lost due to carb heat. >>
Leon,
I disagree. In principal, one of the things that cuts power back when
carb heat muffs are used is that you have significantly altered the ram
airflow into the carburator by routing it thru a heat exchanger. On the A,
you could design the cold air path to have nearly direct ram airflow
available to the carb. Then when "heat" is selected, the pressure drop
across the heat exchanger would be the main cause of reduced power. In the
case of full time carb heat installation, you allways operate with less than
optimum airflow......TLB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Western Aircraft Supplies |
Hi Guys: Has anyone in the group spoken to Jean Peters at Western
Aircraft Supplies in the last few days??? I have been calling to find
out the status of an order. Answering machine is shut off, just keeps
ringing. I know he has always been good at returning his calls quickly,
but I can't get through.
John Duprey
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
Hey Wal;t, See what you started? Its OK, I've learned a bunch. Thanks, Ryder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Theres a fellow about 8 mi. from me with his own field, who has a Tiger
Moth ( and a J3 lookalike U/L) He has a Tiger Moth flyin every year for
all the other ones.
walt
Northern NJ
-----Original Message-----
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
Ken Beanlands wrote:
On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know
anything
about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom
selleck movie,
I think it was called "high road to china"
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: "A" Carb heat |
The reason the RPM drops with carb heat, is that the warm air is thinner
than cold air so when you add carb heat, the mixture is richened( same
fuel/less air= richer). It's not robbing hp by steeling heat from the
exhaust pipes.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 5:50 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: "A" Carb heat
>In a message dated 9/14/99 8:23:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
>leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net writes:
>
><< Doug Bryant told me that upon landing
> the exhaust pipes are just warm to the touch. If that's so, than not
> much HP. would be lost due to carb heat. >>
>
>Leon,
> I disagree. In principal, one of the things that cuts power back when
>carb heat muffs are used is that you have significantly altered the ram
>airflow into the carburator by routing it thru a heat exchanger. On the A,
>you could design the cold air path to have nearly direct ram airflow
>available to the carb. Then when "heat" is selected, the pressure drop
>across the heat exchanger would be the main cause of reduced power. In the
>case of full time carb heat installation, you allways operate with less
than
>optimum airflow......TLB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)... |
Ryder,
Ain't it great! Gets the juices flowing. Thats how we all learn, by
talking about all kind of "stuff"
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: ToySat(at)aol.com <ToySat(at)aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 7:00 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow)...
>Hey Wal;t, See what you started? Its OK, I've learned a bunch. Thanks,
Ryder
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
oh well,,,they were just as purty and the flying scenes made you wish it was
you in the cockpit
JoeC
Ken Beanlands wrote:
> Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually. That movie is part
> of my home collection.
>
> Ken.
>
> On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ken Beanlands wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> > > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
> >
> > for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom selleck
> > movie,
> > I think it was called "high road to china"
> > regards
> > JoeC
> > Zion, Illinois
> >
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
oh well,,,they were just as purty and the flying scenes made you wish
it was you in the cockpit
JoeC
Ken Beanlands wrote:
Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually.
That movie is part
of my home collection.
Ken.
On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
>
>
> Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
>
> for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom
selleck
> movie,
> I think it was called "high road to china"
> regards
> JoeC
> Zion, Illinois
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Coates <coatez(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Western Aircraft Supplies |
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com> |
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 5:21 PM
| Subject: | Western Aircraft Supplies |
> Hi Guys: Has anyone in the group spoken to Jean Peters at Western
> Aircraft Supplies in the last few days??? I have been calling to find
> out the status of an order. Answering machine is shut off, just keeps
> ringing. I know he has always been good at returning his calls quickly,
> but I can't get through.
>
> John Duprey
>
John, as a matter of fact I just talked to Jean Today Sept 4, sounds like he
is going away for the weekend and won't be back till later next week.
Chris Coates
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: "A" Carb heat |
Walt,
You are correct in stating that the lower air density is what causes a
drop in hp when carb heat is ON. My statement earlier to Leon was referring
to an additional drop in hp that occurs because you are significantly
interrupting air flow with carb heat ON and so the intake air pressure goes
way down. I think Leon was stating that there would be little difference in
hp with carb heat OFF and ON on the model A since the temperature of the
exhaust was "not very hot". I was trying to state that even if the warm air
path didn't add much heat to the intake air, it would still be degrading the
performance just due to the fact that the air flow path thru the heat muff
drops the pressure significantly. The bottom line is...you make horsepower
with manifold pressure. So you want dense air and a clean aerodynamic flow
of ram air pressure into the carburator intake to get the manifold pressure
as high as you can. The only catch is...there are times when you have to
sacrifice hp to warm up the intake air to prevent carburator icing. I
certainly wouldn't rig my engine to make that sacrifice full time.
Terry B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Just studying the blue prints on all the clevised
ends on the control stick and landing gear struts. I
would prefer to machine some ends, insert them into
the tube and weld them on. Instead of heating and
shaping them. has anybody done this? thanks for all
of your inputs. I have learned much from this
discussion group. I appreciate each and every reply!
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 09/14/1999 10:50:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com writes:
<< farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com (del magsam) >>
If you do use machined inserts think about fishmouthing the ends to
distribute stresses. On my Piper motor mount I machined the bolt mount
pieces rather than weld a tube to a washer as Piper had. Stronger and looked
lots better. For the strut ends I did the heat, squash, wrap & weld outboard
and welded a threaded insert inboard. Still flying 20 years later so must be
OK.
For my Scout - gonna' stick with Bernies plans.
DG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
what do mean by "fishmouthing". I started to heat and
squash, but was bothered by the hammer marks. I might
try it with a hydraulic press to see if I can get a
nicer appearing piece.
---GREA738(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 09/14/1999 10:50:45 PM Eastern
Daylight Time,
> farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com writes:
>
> << farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com (del magsam) >>
>
> If you do use machined inserts think about
fishmouthing the ends to
> distribute stresses. On my Piper motor mount I
machined the bolt mount
> pieces rather than weld a tube to a washer as Piper
had. Stronger and looked
> lots better. For the strut ends I did the heat,
squash, wrap & weld outboard
> and welded a threaded insert inboard. Still flying
20 years later so must be
> OK.
> For my Scout - gonna' stick with Bernies plans.
> DG
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
Good thinking ;-) ...... You may die of internal injuries... ruptured
bladder & spleen, etc...., but at least your back won't be broken!!!
It is foolish in the extreme to dispense with sholder harnesses for
fear of a broken back. Seat belt alone will cause grevious internal
injuries in case of a violent stoppage.... the sholder harness will
prevent this. The correct approach is to design a sholder harness
installation which will not result in compression of the spine. A
compression strut(s) (vertical) could prevent this problem and allow
your strap to fasten low. This reminds me of the people who refuse to
wear a seat belt because they know of someone who burned to death
trapped by their seat belt...... without consideration for all those
who were thrown from the vehicle and killed due to not being strapped
in.
I use a full 4 point racing harness available from your local
speed shop for about $ 75.00 in either a double seperate sholder
harness system, or a system where both sholder harnesses are sewn
together with a single strap passing to the rear. I use the latter
system. This isn't in a Piet however.
H.W.
-----Original Message-----
From: nle97(at)juno.com <nle97(at)juno.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:11 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>There was a article in Sport Aviation several years ago about
shoulder
>harnesses. It was written by a doctor and he told of how these over
the
>shoulder from below harnesses will compress and even break your back
in
>case of sudden stoppage. We don't plan on installing them in our
plane.
>John Langston
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
There is a set of plans for a replica Tiger Moth available from
someone out there, but I forget just who..... I believe they are
available from a Canadian outfit. Aerocrafter .... an EAA publication
probably lists it. The web site for EAA is www.eaa.org and I believe
there is an Aerocrafter page or group of pages there. The publication
costs $ 29.00 and lists according to their information 750 aircraft
plans and kits. EAA information services will probably come up with
the desired info if you post a request.... they always reply with
prompt accurate information to any request.
H.W.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>OK, I didn't say it was PERFECT ;-). Besides, if you were to build a
>homebuilt version, you could fix a lot of that ;-).
>
>On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know
anything
>about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth? More specifically, does anyone know
where
>to get plans for such a plane? I know, they are a production plane,
but
>with many of them being restored in museums, someone must have access
to
>the blueprints or structural drawings. This is my all time favorite
plane
>and I would love to build a 100 % replica of teh bird. Construction
on the
>versions I've seen doesn't appear difficult and looks like it could
easily
>be reprodiced by someone with some engineering and homebuilding
>experience, ie. ME.
>
>I could see using one of the new Walter Lom 4 cylinder, inverted,
inline
>engines for power. They would fit nicely under that cowl. Basic
structural
>plans would be a good start. Wing rib layouts and spar details would
be
>useful as well. Control and fitting diagrams would be good, but not a
>necessity. After all, most of the controls run outside the plane ;-).
>Given an empty weight of around 1100 lbs, there is not a lot more to
a
>Tiger Moth than there is in a Citabria/Super Cub.
>
>Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
>Ken
>
>> Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
>> interests me...just some more than others.
>> Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
>>
>
>
>Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net> |
Fishmouthing is when you shape the metal around a carp's face...
Actually it just describes the shape that you cut the metal in to
provide a good fit for welding.
Fishmouthing is when you shape the
metal around
a carp's face...
Actually it just describes the shape
that you
cut the metal in to provide a good fit for welding.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "A" Carb heat |
You guys with the ram air issue...you are on the right track in addition to
the warm/less dense air of carb heat......
-----Original Message-----
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 10:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: "A" Carb heat
>Walt,
> You are correct in stating that the lower air density is what causes a
>drop in hp when carb heat is ON. My statement earlier to Leon was
referring
>to an additional drop in hp that occurs because you are significantly
>interrupting air flow with carb heat ON and so the intake air pressure goes
>way down. I think Leon was stating that there would be little difference
in
>hp with carb heat OFF and ON on the model A since the temperature of the
>exhaust was "not very hot". I was trying to state that even if the warm
air
>path didn't add much heat to the intake air, it would still be degrading
the
>performance just due to the fact that the air flow path thru the heat muff
>drops the pressure significantly. The bottom line is...you make
horsepower
>with manifold pressure. So you want dense air and a clean aerodynamic flow
>of ram air pressure into the carburator intake to get the manifold pressure
>as high as you can. The only catch is...there are times when you have to
>sacrifice hp to warm up the intake air to prevent carburator icing. I
>certainly wouldn't rig my engine to make that sacrifice full time.
> Terry B
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Fishmouthing is just a "V" notch in the end of a tube. A tube welded all
around in a straight line is a no-no because it makes that tube prone to
axial failure. The v notch (that looks like a fish's open mouth when
fetching for a hook or Mike Cuy for a candy bar), spreads that heated
area out along those angles of the v notch. Old timers have told me that
welding around a tube in a straight line or circumference is akin to
cutting the tube a quarter of the way thru, that much strength
loss.........especially in shear.
Question of the day: Any of you guys ever notice that some A.N. Bolts
have an asterisk * on the head instead of an X ....? Or why ?
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Kirk <mattkirk(at)chipshot.net>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:19 AM
Subject: Fishmouth
Fishmouthing is when you shape the metal around a carp's face...
Actually it just describes the shape that you cut the metal in to
provide a good fit for welding.
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 09/14/1999 11:30:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com writes:
<< farm >>
Del,
A little hard to describe. Say your end fitting body is 1" dia., make the
straight portion about 4" long and on the end opposite the fitting machine a
deep "vee" with unequal ends. Easier, and just as effective, machine an
unequal outside "vee".
Attached is a .bmp sketch of the side view of a fitting. "A" is the
fishmouth, "B" is the outside vee.
However you do it keep the ends of the vee uneven by about 25%, and vee both
the plug and tube. If you have the EAA book "Building the Custom Aircraft
with Welding" look at the page titled " Typical welded steel tube terminals".
Good luck!
Den
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
The last 5 minutes of the movie, during the credits, is nothing but the
Stampe flying a graceful aerobatic routine. Wonderful movie.
Ken
On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
> oh well,,,they were just as purty and the flying scenes made you wish it was
> you in the cockpit
> JoeC
>
> Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
> > Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually. That movie is part
> > of my home collection.
> >
> > Ken.
> >
> > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ken Beanlands wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> > > > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
> > >
> > > for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom selleck
> > > movie,
> > > I think it was called "high road to china"
> > > regards
> > > JoeC
> > > Zion, Illinois
> > >
> >
> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kayak(at)zebra.net (Robert C. Fawcett) |
how I understand it
slightly less angle of attack at wings tip. As air speed reduces and
near stall, loss of lift
begins at wing root yet outer wing is the last area to lose lift and
aileron control.
rob fawcett
del magsam wrote:
> what is washout? or where can I look to learn about
> washout?
>
> ---Michael D Cuy wrote:
> >
> > In Pietenpol's Builder's manual it mentions that
> > Pietenpol did incorporate washout in his wings- about
> > 3/8" to 1/2" as I recall from the literature.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | California Fly-In |
JUST AN
With Co-Hosts: AV 99's, Fox Airport Assn., COMARCO
We hope you will join us for Chapter 49's second annual fly-in. While we
can't
guarantee the weather, mid September is usually very pleasant with
moderate
winds and temperature as well as over twelve hours of daylight. We will
have lots
of airplanes, Young Eagles and Old Buzzard flights, a spot landing
contest, fly-bys, swap-a-ride, breakfast , lunch and a free raffle to be
held
during lunch. Awards for the spot landing contest will be announced
during
lunchtime. We think you'll enjoy yourselves at Fox Field on the 18th!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
I love that movie, it is in my collection as well, But the flying scenes
were INCREDIBLE on the big screen in the theaters. I always wonderd what
kind of planes they were, I was pretty shure the were'nt Moths. Just
remember as your Piet projects slowly emerge from the wood pile, "The ox
is slow, but the earth is patient" (LOL).
John Duprey
Ken Beanlands wrote:
>
> The last 5 minutes of the movie, during the credits, is nothing but the
> Stampe flying a graceful aerobatic routine. Wonderful movie.
>
> Ken
>
> On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
>
> > oh well,,,they were just as purty and the flying scenes made you wish it was
> > you in the cockpit
> > JoeC
> >
> > Ken Beanlands wrote:
> >
> > > Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually. That movie is part
> > > of my home collection.
> > >
> > > Ken.
> > >
> > > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ken Beanlands wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> > > > > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
> > > >
> > > > for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom selleck
> > > > movie,
> > > > I think it was called "high road to china"
> > > > regards
> > > > JoeC
> > > > Zion, Illinois
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> > > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> > > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> > > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Western Aircraft Supplies (Chris Coates) |
Chris Coates wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 5:21 PM
> Subject: Western Aircraft Supplies
>
> > Hi Guys: Has anyone in the group spoken to Jean Peters at Western
> > Aircraft Supplies in the last few days??? I have been calling to find
> > out the status of an order. Answering machine is shut off, just keeps
> > ringing. I know he has always been good at returning his calls quickly,
> > but I can't get through.
> >
> > John Duprey
> >
Thanks Chris, If you speak to him again before I do, ask him to call me
Re: My order (781)447-0118, Thanks!
John
> John, as a matter of fact I just talked to Jean Today Sept 4, sounds like he
> is going away for the weekend and won't be back till later next week.
> Chris Coates
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cushway, Mike" <mike_cushway(at)trekbike.com> |
| Subject: | BOX SPAR CONSTRUCTION |
For those of you who have experience with built-up spars, I have a few
questions.
1) What are the H & W dims of the caps?
2) Does grain orientation matter on the plywood faces?
3) Does grain orientation matter on the caps?
4) Did you truss or bridge the interior?
5) Do you internally reinforce the attach points?
6) Assuming a finished spar of 1"width, are ribs attached in the
Mike Cushway
Mfg. Engineering
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larryc <larryc(at)gateway.net> |
| Subject: | REMOVE FROM LIST |
PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAIL LIST. NO INTEREST THANK YOU
PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAIL LIST. NO INTEREST
THANK
YOU
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
The replica I've seen, I looked at at Oshkosh this year was from Fisher
Flying Products <http://www.fisherflying.com>.
They have the R-80 Tiger Moth. If I was going to build a biplane that would
probably be the one.
It's a replica of the DeHaviland DH82A Tiger Moth at 80% scale. They also
have quick build kits??? What's that???
I thought that was when your wood didn't have bark on it....
Greg Yotz
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 2:09 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>OK, I didn't say it was PERFECT ;-). Besides, if you were to build a
>homebuilt version, you could fix a lot of that ;-).
>
>On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
>about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth? More specifically, does anyone know where
>to get plans for such a plane? I know, they are a production plane, but
>with many of them being restored in museums, someone must have access to
>the blueprints or structural drawings. This is my all time favorite plane
>and I would love to build a 100 % replica of teh bird. Construction on the
>versions I've seen doesn't appear difficult and looks like it could easily
>be reprodiced by someone with some engineering and homebuilding
>experience, ie. ME.
>
>I could see using one of the new Walter Lom 4 cylinder, inverted, inline
>engines for power. They would fit nicely under that cowl. Basic structural
>plans would be a good start. Wing rib layouts and spar details would be
>useful as well. Control and fitting diagrams would be good, but not a
>necessity. After all, most of the controls run outside the plane ;-).
>Given an empty weight of around 1100 lbs, there is not a lot more to a
>Tiger Moth than there is in a Citabria/Super Cub.
>
>Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
>Ken
>
>> Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
>> interests me...just some more than others.
>> Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
>>
>
>
>Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
You mean we are suppose to take the Bark off before glueing?
I wonder if I should do my solid Spar over now.
Gordon
RW-1 UL Piet
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 9:42 AM
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
> The replica I've seen, I looked at at Oshkosh this year was from Fisher
> Flying Products <http://www.fisherflying.com>.
> They have the R-80 Tiger Moth. If I was going to build a biplane that
would
> probably be the one.
> It's a replica of the DeHaviland DH82A Tiger Moth at 80% scale. They
also
> have quick build kits??? What's that???
> I thought that was when your wood didn't have bark on it....
>
> Greg Yotz
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>
>
> >OK, I didn't say it was PERFECT ;-). Besides, if you were to build a
> >homebuilt version, you could fix a lot of that ;-).
> >
> >On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> >about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth? More specifically, does anyone know where
> >to get plans for such a plane? I know, they are a production plane, but
> >with many of them being restored in museums, someone must have access to
> >the blueprints or structural drawings. This is my all time favorite plane
> >and I would love to build a 100 % replica of teh bird. Construction on
the
> >versions I've seen doesn't appear difficult and looks like it could
easily
> >be reprodiced by someone with some engineering and homebuilding
> >experience, ie. ME.
> >
> >I could see using one of the new Walter Lom 4 cylinder, inverted, inline
> >engines for power. They would fit nicely under that cowl. Basic
structural
> >plans would be a good start. Wing rib layouts and spar details would be
> >useful as well. Control and fitting diagrams would be good, but not a
> >necessity. After all, most of the controls run outside the plane ;-).
> >Given an empty weight of around 1100 lbs, there is not a lot more to a
> >Tiger Moth than there is in a Citabria/Super Cub.
> >
> >Any ideas would be appreciated.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >> Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
> >> interests me...just some more than others.
> >> Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
> >>
> >
> >
> >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> >Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | User554784(at)aol.com |
The * and x are the same: corrosion resistant aircraft bolt. Ref: Bingelis;
Sportplane Construction Techniques; pg. 20
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert hensarling <rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 9:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
I also love that movie (and Bess Armstrong) because of the planes, vintage
cloths, etc. I have to ask though, exactly what is a stamp? Company that
made it? Years made? Country made, etc. Since this isn't Pietenpol
related, direct email is fine.
>The last 5 minutes of the movie, during the credits, is nothing but the
>Stampe flying a graceful aerobatic routine. Wonderful movie.
>
>Ken
>
>On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
>
>> oh well,,,they were just as purty and the flying scenes made you wish it
was
>> you in the cockpit
>> JoeC
>>
>> Ken Beanlands wrote:
>>
>> > Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually. That movie is
part
>> > of my home collection.
>> >
>> > Ken.
>> >
>> > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Ken Beanlands wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know
anything
>> > > > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
>> > >
>> > > for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom
selleck
>> > > movie,
>> > > I think it was called "high road to china"
>> > > regards
>> > > JoeC
>> > > Zion, Illinois
>> > >
>> >
>> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>> > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
>> > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>>
>
>Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Earl Myers wrote:
> Question of the day: Any of you guys ever notice that some A.N. Bolts
> have an asterisk * on the head instead of an X ....? Or why ? Earl
> Myers
I believe it denotes different manufacturers.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 09/15/1999 12:32:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
allaire(at)raex.com writes:
<< Question of the day: Any of you guys ever notice that some A.N. Bolts have
an asterisk * on the head instead of an X ....? Or why ?
Earl Myers >>
Earl,
The asterik indicates "standard" bolt head. See page 7-6 in your AS 43-13 1B
DG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
I was looking at the R-80, but.... I'd prefer something closer to the
"real thing". I know this next statment will get me in trouble on the Piet
list, but I really like the idea of the steel tube fuse of the original. I
know all the pros and cons of both construction techniques, but for me the
steel tube is prefered.
Ken
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Greg Yotz wrote:
> The replica I've seen, I looked at at Oshkosh this year was from Fisher
> Flying Products <http://www.fisherflying.com>.
> They have the R-80 Tiger Moth. If I was going to build a biplane that would
> probably be the one.
> It's a replica of the DeHaviland DH82A Tiger Moth at 80% scale. They also
> have quick build kits??? What's that???
> I thought that was when your wood didn't have bark on it....
>
> Greg Yotz
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>
>
> >OK, I didn't say it was PERFECT ;-). Besides, if you were to build a
> >homebuilt version, you could fix a lot of that ;-).
> >
> >On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
> >about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth? More specifically, does anyone know where
> >to get plans for such a plane? I know, they are a production plane, but
> >with many of them being restored in museums, someone must have access to
> >the blueprints or structural drawings. This is my all time favorite plane
> >and I would love to build a 100 % replica of teh bird. Construction on the
> >versions I've seen doesn't appear difficult and looks like it could easily
> >be reprodiced by someone with some engineering and homebuilding
> >experience, ie. ME.
> >
> >I could see using one of the new Walter Lom 4 cylinder, inverted, inline
> >engines for power. They would fit nicely under that cowl. Basic structural
> >plans would be a good start. Wing rib layouts and spar details would be
> >useful as well. Control and fitting diagrams would be good, but not a
> >necessity. After all, most of the controls run outside the plane ;-).
> >Given an empty weight of around 1100 lbs, there is not a lot more to a
> >Tiger Moth than there is in a Citabria/Super Cub.
> >
> >Any ideas would be appreciated.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >> Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
> >> interests me...just some more than others.
> >> Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
> >>
> >
> >
> >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> >Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
I know the 43.13 states this is a "standard" bolt, which it was prior to
1965.....these bolts have CUT threads, hence the asterisk, but usually date
to early '50's and before. The "X" is intended to show the 4087 alloy using
ROLLED threads.....little known airplane factoid.
-----Original Message-----
From: GREA738(at)aol.com <GREA738(at)aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 1:21 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolt ID
>In a message dated 09/15/1999 12:32:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>allaire(at)raex.com writes:
>
><< Question of the day: Any of you guys ever notice that some A.N. Bolts
have
>an asterisk * on the head instead of an X ....? Or why ?
> Earl Myers >>
>
>Earl,
>The asterik indicates "standard" bolt head. See page 7-6 in your AS 43-13
1B
>DG
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BOX SPAR CONSTRUCTION |
Mike;
Yes to all, details to follow
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Cushway, Mike <mike_cushway(at)trekbike.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: BOX SPAR CONSTRUCTION
>For those of you who have experience with built-up spars, I have a few
>questions.
>
> 1) What are the H & W dims of the caps?
> 2) Does grain orientation matter on the plywood faces?
> 3) Does grain orientation matter on the caps?
> 4) Did you truss or bridge the interior?
> 5) Do you internally reinforce the attach points?
> 6) Assuming a finished spar of 1"width, are ribs attached in the
> same manner as a solid spar?
>
>
>Mike Cushway
> Mfg. Engineering
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Corrosion Resistant bolts have a single dash on the head. I will check this
reference you pointed out.....sounds like a mis-interpretation. AND NOTE:
Altho these bolts will rust over time, they are made of "coldheading grade
stainless steel". The carbon added to make them coldheadable is what
enhances the rust or corrosion as well as the copper lubing that sometimes
doesn't get cleaned off.........they are mainly intended for high temp
applications like turbos or exhaust systems........the little 18-8 (grade
303-306 ) stainless machine/sheetmetal screws are the ones that won't rust,
at least in our lifetime...........
Earl Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: User554784(at)aol.com
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 1:07 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fishmouth
>The * and x are the same: corrosion resistant aircraft bolt. Ref: Bingelis;
>Sportplane Construction Techniques; pg. 20
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dougl52955(at)aol.com |
Please remove me from your mail list. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B and V Dearinger <dearinge(at)iocc.com> |
Has anyone heard of a pietenpol weighing less than 650 empty?Apparently
lots of them weight 700 lbs and more depending on the landing gear and
engine/prop combo's.I am really interested to know the combos on the
lightest planes.Thanks, Bill
Has anyone heard of a pietenpol weighing less than
650
empty?Apparently lots of them weight 700 lbs and more depending on the
landing
gear and engine/prop combo's.I am really interested to know the combos
on the
lightest planes.Thanks, Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
Everybody likes Cubs...they're just so damned CUTE. Everybody likes
Champs...they're so damned CUTE.
I started out in a J3, and UPGRADED to a 7AC. Liked 'em both! Still do.
Airplanes are a lot like women...they all look different, sometimes you want
'em all, you usually can't afford even one, but, boy, are they nice to have
around.
I had a '56 Crown Vic, a '57 Bel Air and a '68 Javelin. Wish I still had
them as well as everything else nice I've let slip away. Did hold on to my
woman, though.
Thoughts of an O.F.
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 09/15/1999 12:32:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
allaire(at)raex.com writes:
<< Question of the day: Any of you guys ever notice that some A.N. Bolts have
an asterisk * on the head instead of an X ....? Or why ?
Earl Myers >>
Earl,
The asterik indicates "standard" bolt head. See page 7-6 in your AS 43-13 1B
DG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pschultz(at)uplogon.com (Paul Schultz) |
Unsubscribe pschultz(at)uplogon.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
You may want to sit in the Piet cockpit, and look at how close your face
is to the panel. The cracked back may be better than the fractured
skull. It seems to me that when i joined the EAA way back, I had to
sign a form stating that I would install shoulder restraints in any
amateur built plane that I did. Must be a reason!
It might look funny, but has anyone put a post up just aft of the seat
back?
I still don't know what to do with the shoulder strap attach point, but
when I sit there and lean forward, I know its going to be worse than a
face plant in skiing!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Shoulder Harnesses |
I can GUARANTEE that shoulder a harness can save your life. I witnessed a Pietenpol
accident where the passenger elected not to wear his shoulder harness and
he died of massive head injuries. Pilot wearing shoulder harness survived.
We're right to be concerned about back/spine compression injuries, but at least
you'll be alive for the treatment! (My 2 cents)
Bill Sayre
> ----------
> From: Ian Holland[SMTP:iholland@microage-tb.com]
> Reply To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:38 PM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>
> You may want to sit in the Piet cockpit, and look at how close your face
> is to the panel. The cracked back may be better than the fractured
> skull. It seems to me that when i joined the EAA way back, I had to
> sign a form stating that I would install shoulder restraints in any
> amateur built plane that I did. Must be a reason!
>
> It might look funny, but has anyone put a post up just aft of the seat
> back?
>
> I still don't know what to do with the shoulder strap attach point, but
> when I sit there and lean forward, I know its going to be worse than a
> face plant in skiing!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David B. Schober" <dschober(at)mail.fscwv.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
A Stampe is a biplane made mostly in Belgium from the late 30's to the mid
40's. Uses a Gypsy engine and looks a little like a Moth but a little smaller
and much more maneuverable. If you want to watch one, go to Old Rhinebeck any
weekend from May to October and watch the show. Gene DeMarco flies his blue and
white one all the time there.
robert hensarling wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>
> I also love that movie (and Bess Armstrong) because of the planes, vintage
> cloths, etc. I have to ask though, exactly what is a stamp? Company that
> made it? Years made? Country made, etc. Since this isn't Pietenpol
> related, direct email is fine.
>
> >The last 5 minutes of the movie, during the credits, is nothing but the
> >Stampe flying a graceful aerobatic routine. Wonderful movie.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
> >
> >> oh well,,,they were just as purty and the flying scenes made you wish it
> was
> >> you in the cockpit
> >> JoeC
> >>
> >> Ken Beanlands wrote:
> >>
> >> > Close, but that was a Stampe. Three of them, actually. That movie is
> part
> >> > of my home collection.
> >> >
> >> > Ken.
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, fishin wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Ken Beanlands wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know
> anything
> >> > > > about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth?
> >> > >
> >> > > for some great flying scenes of the tiger moth, check out the tom
> selleck
> >> > > movie,
> >> > > I think it was called "high road to china"
> >> > > regards
> >> > > JoeC
> >> > > Zion, Illinois
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> >> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> >> > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> >> > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >>
> >
> >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> >Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >
> >
> >
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Mine is 626lbs. Short fuse with A-65
Duanes was 680lbs long fuse wing subaru and redrive.
Steve Eldredge
Steve(at)byu.edu
IT Services
Brigham Young University
-----Original Message-----
Dearinger
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:29 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight
Has anyone heard of a pietenpol weighing less than 650 empty?Apparently lots
of them weight 700 lbs and more depending on the landing gear and
engine/prop combo's.I am really interested to know the combos on the
lightest planes.Thanks, Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BOX SPAR CONSTRUCTION |
Mike,
I made box spars for my Woodstock. This is how it went.
then the spar width)
from flat
I like box spars, but I would build a six foot piece and test it to
failure, and then test a piece of spruce. Then you know!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dougl52955(at)aol.com |
unsubscribe dougl52955(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: "A" Carb heat |
Terry,
I agree with you 100%. I just wanted to add what I did, because I've flown
U/L's for years, and it's a hard thing for the 2 strokers to understand. The
2 strokes are very sensitive to temp/density, that when the temp goes down,
the colder air makes for a hotter running engine.( fuel the same, more air)
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 10:29 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: "A" Carb heat
>Walt,
> You are correct in stating that the lower air density is what causes a
>drop in hp when carb heat is ON. My statement earlier to Leon was
referring
>to an additional drop in hp that occurs because you are significantly
>interrupting air flow with carb heat ON and so the intake air pressure goes
>way down. I think Leon was stating that there would be little difference
in
>hp with carb heat OFF and ON on the model A since the temperature of the
>exhaust was "not very hot". I was trying to state that even if the warm
air
>path didn't add much heat to the intake air, it would still be degrading
the
>performance just due to the fact that the air flow path thru the heat muff
>drops the pressure significantly. The bottom line is...you make
horsepower
>with manifold pressure. So you want dense air and a clean aerodynamic flow
>of ram air pressure into the carburator intake to get the manifold pressure
>as high as you can. The only catch is...there are times when you have to
>sacrifice hp to warm up the intake air to prevent carburator icing. I
>certainly wouldn't rig my engine to make that sacrifice full time.
> Terry B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RPas909040(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a steel tube
fuselage even) try the Hatz Biplane, you won't be sorry. If you need more
details I can supply them.
Rob Passley
NX338RP Hatz (in work)
NX899R Pietenpol (in work)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
I've also been following the Hatz pages quite closely. It's certainly a
nice machine. However, the useful load is not as good with the Hatz and
eventually, I'd like to have something to put on floats. The Tiger Moth
makes a beutiful floatplane with about 650 lbs of useful load left over,
even on floats. My idea would be to put the greenhouse on it similar to
the Canadian trainer version.
Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have been able to shake down a couple of
leads. One of the Flying Farmers here in Alberta has one and may have
drawings.
Ken
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 RPas909040(at)aol.com wrote:
> If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a steel tube
> fuselage even) try the Hatz Biplane, you won't be sorry. If you need more
> details I can supply them.
>
> Rob Passley
> NX338RP Hatz (in work)
> NX899R Pietenpol (in work)
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Lot of people on the Ragwing list looking to build one that Roger is about
ready to release the plans for. I think it is maybe 80% scale.
Are you talking about getting plans for the full size TM?
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:45 PM
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
> I've also been following the Hatz pages quite closely. It's certainly a
> nice machine. However, the useful load is not as good with the Hatz and
> eventually, I'd like to have something to put on floats. The Tiger Moth
> makes a beutiful floatplane with about 650 lbs of useful load left over,
> even on floats. My idea would be to put the greenhouse on it similar to
> the Canadian trainer version.
>
> Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have been able to shake down a couple of
> leads. One of the Flying Farmers here in Alberta has one and may have
> drawings.
>
> Ken
>
> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 RPas909040(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a steel
tube
> > fuselage even) try the Hatz Biplane, you won't be sorry. If you need
more
> > details I can supply them.
> >
> > Rob Passley
> > NX338RP Hatz (in work)
> > NX899R Pietenpol (in work)
> >
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | center section cabane strut brackets: |
The plans for the upper cabane spar fittings as "U" channel made of 3/4
X .90 strap, with 2 tab's welded below for the top of the cabane strut.
Several people are telling that is wrong. Need to be 2 "U" channels
welded together at crotch, one facing up the other down. What have you
other builders done? Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Lawler <clawler(at)ptd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
How have some of you been attaching the shoulder harness for the front
seat to the fuselage? If I attach though the the back of seat it angles
down too much. Can't lower the seat because I have the master cylinders
for the brakes under there.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug <ve6zh(at)oanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: center section cabane strut brackets: |
Do the later,welds in tension are not a good idea,the u shaped idea is
safer,if your edge weld fails,nothing will depart,this is good.
Doug
> From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: center section cabane strut brackets:
> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 5:31 PM
>
> The plans for the upper cabane spar fittings as "U" channel made of 3/4
> X .90 strap, with 2 tab's welded below for the top of the cabane strut.
> Several people are telling that is wrong. Need to be 2 "U" channels
> welded together at crotch, one facing up the other down. What have you
> other builders done? Leon S.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
H W
I started this discussion about the shoulder harness " back squish". Only
wanted to inject a thought given to me by my mentor that enlightened me to
a fact that I hadn't thought of. Didn't mean do it my way or not at all.
Just meant if you have a choice, put the straps straight back from
shoulders( or flatter the better).
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:00 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>Good thinking ;-) ...... You may die of internal injuries... ruptured
>bladder & spleen, etc...., but at least your back won't be broken!!!
>It is foolish in the extreme to dispense with sholder harnesses for
>fear of a broken back. Seat belt alone will cause grevious internal
>injuries in case of a violent stoppage.... the sholder harness will
>prevent this. The correct approach is to design a sholder harness
>installation which will not result in compression of the spine. A
>compression strut(s) (vertical) could prevent this problem and allow
>your strap to fasten low. This reminds me of the people who refuse to
>wear a seat belt because they know of someone who burned to death
>trapped by their seat belt...... without consideration for all those
>who were thrown from the vehicle and killed due to not being strapped
>in.
> I use a full 4 point racing harness available from your local
>speed shop for about $ 75.00 in either a double seperate sholder
>harness system, or a system where both sholder harnesses are sewn
>together with a single strap passing to the rear. I use the latter
>system. This isn't in a Piet however.
>
>H.W.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nle97(at)juno.com <nle97(at)juno.com>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:11 PM
>Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>
>
>>There was a article in Sport Aviation several years ago about
>shoulder
>>harnesses. It was written by a doctor and he told of how these over
>the
>>shoulder from below harnesses will compress and even break your back
>in
>>case of sudden stoppage. We don't plan on installing them in our
>plane.
>>John Langston
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Greg,
My first project was a Fisher Flying Product.....great company. Quality and
support
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:44 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>The replica I've seen, I looked at at Oshkosh this year was from Fisher
>Flying Products <http://www.fisherflying.com>.
>They have the R-80 Tiger Moth. If I was going to build a biplane that
would
>probably be the one.
>It's a replica of the DeHaviland DH82A Tiger Moth at 80% scale. They also
>have quick build kits??? What's that???
>I thought that was when your wood didn't have bark on it....
>
>Greg Yotz
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 2:09 PM
>Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>
>
>>OK, I didn't say it was PERFECT ;-). Besides, if you were to build a
>>homebuilt version, you could fix a lot of that ;-).
>>
>>On a completely different subject, does anyone out there know anything
>>about the old DH-82 Tiger Moth? More specifically, does anyone know where
>>to get plans for such a plane? I know, they are a production plane, but
>>with many of them being restored in museums, someone must have access to
>>the blueprints or structural drawings. This is my all time favorite plane
>>and I would love to build a 100 % replica of teh bird. Construction on the
>>versions I've seen doesn't appear difficult and looks like it could easily
>>be reprodiced by someone with some engineering and homebuilding
>>experience, ie. ME.
>>
>>I could see using one of the new Walter Lom 4 cylinder, inverted, inline
>>engines for power. They would fit nicely under that cowl. Basic structural
>>plans would be a good start. Wing rib layouts and spar details would be
>>useful as well. Control and fitting diagrams would be good, but not a
>>necessity. After all, most of the controls run outside the plane ;-).
>>Given an empty weight of around 1100 lbs, there is not a lot more to a
>>Tiger Moth than there is in a Citabria/Super Cub.
>>
>>Any ideas would be appreciated.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>> Surley I jest about these points, heck anything that flies
>>> interests me...just some more than others.
>>> Common down Ken, we'll go fly the Cub around for a while !!
>>>
>>
>>
>>Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>>Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>>Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
>><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: center section cabane strut brackets: |
tabs, with the fwd ones having a fwd extension for the down angle tubes to
the engine mounts
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section cabane strut brackets:
The plans for the upper cabane spar fittings as "U" channel made of 3/4
X .90 strap, with 2 tab's welded below for the top of the cabane strut.
Several people are telling that is wrong. Need to be 2 "U" channels
welded together at crotch, one facing up the other down. What have you
other builders done? Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams) |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
One thing to ask folks about is the Tiger Moth rigging book. They wrote
an illustrated book that tells how to take Moth parts out of the box and
put it together. I got to watch some friends put one together. There
are a million complicated metal fittings and getting the wings rigged
right is really something.
This book has been reprinted, so once you get into the midst of a nest
of Tiger Moth enthusasts you will be able to find one.
On the subject of Tiger Moths, if you want one, why not buy one. There
are a lot of them around. I've seen four different ones advertised in
the last year. Also, you can get projects. People ground loop or
capsize them regularly,as they can be a bear in a crosswind on pavement.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Woolsey <jwoolsey(at)activation.net> |
| Subject: | Getting off this list |
I have signed off, and it keeps sending me messages. Who is responsible for this
list??
--
John Woolsey
Flagship Software Limited
jwoolsey(at)activation.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
robert hensarling wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>
> I also love that movie (and Bess Armstrong) because of the planes, vintage
> cloths, etc. I have to ask though, exactly what is a stamp? Company that
> made it? Years made? Country made, etc.
Stampe J series, Belgium, 1918/1933 100hp hall-scott engine
Stampe SV4 1933, 130hp deHavilland Gipsy Major engine
military trainers
SV4B France 140hp Renault engine
JoeC
robert hensarling wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Beanlands kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
To: Pietenpol Discussion piet(at)byu.edu>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 9:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
I also love that movie (and Bess Armstrong) because of the planes, vintage
cloths, etc. I have to ask though, exactly what is a stamp?
Company that
made it? Years made? Country made, etc.
Stampe J series, Belgium, 1918/1933 100hp hall-scott engine
Stampe SV4 1933, 130hp deHavilland Gipsy
Major engine
military trainers
SV4B France 140hp Renault engine
JoeC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Ken, you may want to contact the Empire Training museum in Brandon,
Manitoba. I believe tyhat they have (had) one, and also had the plans.
----- Original Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:45 PM
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
> I've also been following the Hatz pages quite closely. It's certainly a
> nice machine. However, the useful load is not as good with the Hatz and
> eventually, I'd like to have something to put on floats. The Tiger Moth
> makes a beutiful floatplane with about 650 lbs of useful load left over,
> even on floats. My idea would be to put the greenhouse on it similar to
> the Canadian trainer version.
>
> Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have been able to shake down a couple of
> leads. One of the Flying Farmers here in Alberta has one and may have
> drawings.
>
> Ken
>
> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 RPas909040(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a steel
tube
> > fuselage even) try the Hatz Biplane, you won't be sorry. If you need
more
> > details I can supply them.
> >
> > Rob Passley
> > NX338RP Hatz (in work)
> > NX899R Pietenpol (in work)
> >
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robert hensarling <rhrocker(at)admin.hilconet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
-----Original Message-----
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
Thanks for the info guys. Speaking of Hatz, a guy has one for sale
about 60 miles from me for $13,000. According to a Hatz specialist in
Seguin, Texas (Forget his name athe the present time, but he has been in
Kitplanes and other publications), it's an absolute steal. Needs some
TLC however, and currently i don't have the time for a "project".
Robert (Still enjoying my ol GN-1) Hensarling
robert hensarling wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
To: Pietenpol Discussion
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
I also love that movie (and Bess Armstrong) because of the
planes, vintage
cloths, etc. I have to ask though, exactly what is a stamp?
Company that
made it? Years made? Country made, etc.
Stampe J series, Belgium, 1918/1933 100hp hall-scott engine
Stampe SV4 1933, 130hp deHavilland Gipsy Major engine
military trainers
SV4B France 140hp Renault engine
JoeC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COZYPILOT(at)aol.com |
Did anybody come up with a material list? (wood)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses |
Walter:
My comment was not directed at you in any way.... John Langston
commented: " We don't plan on installing them in our plane." After
mentioning the problem of spinal compression. The implication being
that out of concern about spinal compression it was decided not to use
a shoulder harness.
Perhaps John feels that sudden death by violent head injury or
internal injuries is preferable to life as a quadriplegic. If so I
can relate to that concern..... I almost left off my crotch strap from
my 5 point harness out of similar concerns.
However in the case of the shoulder harness proper design will
prevent either eventuality....... (head injury or spinal injury).
In the case of my crotch strap, at age 44, I'm perhaps past my
sexual prime, and if I were to suffer damage as a result of that
strap, I could look on the bright side of things and see that it would
simply leave me with more time for other activities such as flying.
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 5:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>H W
>I started this discussion about the shoulder harness " back squish".
Only
>wanted to inject a thought given to me by my mentor that enlightened
me to
>a fact that I hadn't thought of. Didn't mean do it my way or not at
all.
>Just meant if you have a choice, put the straps straight back from
>shoulders( or flatter the better).
>walt
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:00 AM
>Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>
>
>>Good thinking ;-) ...... You may die of internal injuries...
ruptured
>>bladder & spleen, etc...., but at least your back won't be broken!!!
>>It is foolish in the extreme to dispense with sholder harnesses for
>>fear of a broken back. Seat belt alone will cause grevious internal
>>injuries in case of a violent stoppage.... the sholder harness will
>>prevent this. The correct approach is to design a sholder harness
>>installation which will not result in compression of the spine. A
>>compression strut(s) (vertical) could prevent this problem and allow
>>your strap to fasten low. This reminds me of the people who refuse
to
>>wear a seat belt because they know of someone who burned to death
>>trapped by their seat belt...... without consideration for all those
>>who were thrown from the vehicle and killed due to not being
strapped
>>in.
>> I use a full 4 point racing harness available from your local
>>speed shop for about $ 75.00 in either a double seperate sholder
>>harness system, or a system where both sholder harnesses are sewn
>>together with a single strap passing to the rear. I use the latter
>>system. This isn't in a Piet however.
>>
>>H.W.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nle97(at)juno.com <nle97(at)juno.com>
>>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>>Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:11 PM
>>Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
>>
>>
>>>There was a article in Sport Aviation several years ago about
>>shoulder
>>>harnesses. It was written by a doctor and he told of how these over
>>the
>>>shoulder from below harnesses will compress and even break your
back
>>in
>>>case of sudden stoppage. We don't plan on installing them in our
>>plane.
>>>John Langston
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net> |
| Subject: | Shoulder Harnesses (front pit routing) |
The compression issue can obviously be overcome by a compression
strut(s).....In this case the fuselage structure itself could serve
this purpose. There remains the issue of how to attach the harness in
the front pit without a steep downward angle. The obvious answer to
this is to have a sturdy structure directly behind the passenger to
carry the load outward to the longerons.... The structure between the
pits could be built sturdily enough to serve this purpose. A
laminated arch covered with light ply and integrating with the cross
piece at station 41.5, behind the front pit, supporting the section of
turtle deck between the pits, and plywood covering between the rear of
the front pit and the front of the rear pit and other strategic places
with a good structure behind the instrument panel could serve the
purpose. In a front end crash the front part of this structure would
then be subjected to a downward force which would be taken by the
diagonals and plywood of the fuselage side. The rear part would have
to depend on the longeron and plywood to overcome the corresponding
upward force. Jury struts or light cables could tie this through to
the cluster at the bottom of the rear pit to supplement this. You in
effect have a rigid structure that wants to pivot about the cluster
where the rear cabane strut is attached, and if restrained from doing
this will hold you in place.
Please excuse me if I have failed to paint a clear picture.....
It's clear in "my mind's eye", but I have yet to find a digicam that
will capture what "my mind's eye" sees. ;-)
I don't have a proper set of Piet plans.... just looking at the
drawings in the Flying and Glider manual. It's not an impossible or
even particularly difficult task to design a structure into the Piet
which is sufficient to withstand shoulder harness loads.... unless the
Piet is already built.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
Umm...... That's the Commonwealth Air Training Plan Museum in Brandon
Manitoba, Ian, and yes we Do Have an 82a. It is maintained as a flight
worthy aircraft and will be flying at our Open House and Volenteer
Appreciation Day this weekend. (weather permitting). We hope to also fly the
Cornell and the Mk11 Harvard as well. I know it is a good days drive from
Thunder Bay, but you are welcome, as is Wayne Sippola of Wpg. and any other
Piet or aviation nut with in range. :-)
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Holland
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 8:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>Ken, you may want to contact the Empire Training museum in Brandon,
>Manitoba. I believe tyhat they have (had) one, and also had the plans.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:45 PM
>Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>
>
>> I've also been following the Hatz pages quite closely. It's certainly a
>> nice machine. However, the useful load is not as good with the Hatz and
>> eventually, I'd like to have something to put on floats. The Tiger Moth
>> makes a beutiful floatplane with about 650 lbs of useful load left over,
>> even on floats. My idea would be to put the greenhouse on it similar to
>> the Canadian trainer version.
>>
>> Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have been able to shake down a couple of
>> leads. One of the Flying Farmers here in Alberta has one and may have
>> drawings.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 RPas909040(at)aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a steel
>tube
>> > fuselage even) try the Hatz Biplane, you won't be sorry. If you need
>more
>> > details I can supply them.
>> >
>> > Rob Passley
>> > NX338RP Hatz (in work)
>> > NX899R Pietenpol (in work)
>> >
>>
>> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
>> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harnesses (front pit routing)DH82a |
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Wilkinson <owly(at)mcn.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 10:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Shoulder Harnesses (front pit routing)
>The compression issue can obviously be overcome by a compression
>strut(s).....In this case the fuselage structure itself could serve
>this purpose. There remains the issue of how to attach the harness in
>the front pit without a steep downward angle. The obvious answer to
>this is to have a sturdy structure directly behind the passenger to
>carry the load outward to the longerons.... The structure between the
>pits could be built sturdily enough to serve this purpose. A
>laminated arch covered with light ply and integrating with the cross
>piece at station 41.5, behind the front pit, supporting the section of
>turtle deck between the pits, and plywood covering between the rear of
>the front pit and the front of the rear pit and other strategic places
>with a good structure behind the instrument panel could serve the
>purpose.
That's the way the Moth does it! by the way Bernard mentions copying the
DeHavilland fuselage in his article in the Flying and Glider manual.
J Mc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
For moth plans,I'd write or e-mail the smithsonian in wash DC., or the
imperial war museum in england.
>From a corner of my mind, I seem to remember several ww1 biplanes made a few
miles from here, in Athol idaho, and the fellow got his plans from
smithsonian historical files.
I just happen to have a 3 view newport 28 drawing on 1 sheet w/cover off,
and all bulkheads +wings and ribs in scale. I almost think that I could
build a full scale airplane from just that sheet.
>From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
>Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:45:03 -0600 (MDT)
>
>I've also been following the Hatz pages quite closely. It's certainly a
>nice machine. However, the useful load is not as good with the Hatz and
>eventually, I'd like to have something to put on floats. The Tiger Moth
>makes a beutiful floatplane with about 650 lbs of useful load left over,
>even on floats. My idea would be to put the greenhouse on it similar to
>the Canadian trainer version.
>
>Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have been able to shake down a couple of
>leads. One of the Flying Farmers here in Alberta has one and may have
>drawings.
>
>Ken
>
>On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 RPas909040(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a steel
>tube
> > fuselage even) try the Hatz Biplane, you won't be sorry. If you need
>more
> > details I can supply them.
> >
> > Rob Passley
> > NX338RP Hatz (in work)
> > NX899R Pietenpol (in work)
> >
>
>Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Shoulder Harnesses |
how did this accident happen. when I hear of an
accident I like to know why, to help me to avoid that
situation.
---"Sayre, William G"
wrote:
>
> I can GUARANTEE that shoulder a harness can save
your life. I witnessed a Pietenpol accident where
the passenger elected not to wear his shoulder
harness and he died of massive head injuries. Pilot
wearing shoulder harness survived.
>
> We're right to be concerned about back/spine
compression injuries, but at least you'll be alive
for the treatment! (My 2 cents)
>
> Bill Sayre
> > ----------
> > From: Ian Holland[SMTP:iholland@microage-tb.com]
> > Reply To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:38 PM
> > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
> >
> > You may want to sit in the Piet cockpit, and look
at how close your face
> > is to the panel. The cracked back may be better
than the fractured
> > skull. It seems to me that when i joined the EAA
way back, I had to
> > sign a form stating that I would install shoulder
restraints in any
> > amateur built plane that I did. Must be a reason!
> >
> > It might look funny, but has anyone put a post up
just aft of the seat
> > back?
> >
> > I still don't know what to do with the shoulder
strap attach point, but
> > when I sit there and lean forward, I know its
going to be worse than a
> > face plant in skiing!
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sayre, William G" <William.Sayre(at)PSS.Boeing.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Shoulder Harnesses |
Stall/spin after downwind takeoff and during downwind turn.
> ----------
> From: del magsam[SMTP:farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com]
> Reply To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 5:00 AM
> To: Pietenpol Discussion
> Subject: RE: Shoulder Harnesses
>
> how did this accident happen. when I hear of an
> accident I like to know why, to help me to avoid that
> situation.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---"Sayre, William G"
> wrote:
> >
> > I can GUARANTEE that shoulder a harness can save
> your life. I witnessed a Pietenpol accident where
> the passenger elected not to wear his shoulder
> harness and he died of massive head injuries. Pilot
> wearing shoulder harness survived.
> >
> > We're right to be concerned about back/spine
> compression injuries, but at least you'll be alive
> for the treatment! (My 2 cents)
> >
> > Bill Sayre
> > > ----------
> > > From: Ian Holland[SMTP:iholland@microage-tb.com]
> > > Reply To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:38 PM
> > > To: Pietenpol Discussion
> > > Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses
> > >
> > > You may want to sit in the Piet cockpit, and look
> at how close your face
> > > is to the panel. The cracked back may be better
> than the fractured
> > > skull. It seems to me that when i joined the EAA
> way back, I had to
> > > sign a form stating that I would install shoulder
> restraints in any
> > > amateur built plane that I did. Must be a reason!
> > >
> > > It might look funny, but has anyone put a post up
> just aft of the seat
> > > back?
> > >
> > > I still don't know what to do with the shoulder
> strap attach point, but
> > > when I sit there and lean forward, I know its
> going to be worse than a
> > > face plant in skiing!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Cabane strut fittings: |
Walter & Doug: Thanks for the tip's. I guess I will scrap my plans-built
brackets and build new ones.Someone wrote"I do not have a proper set of
Piet plans"... I do and they are not "proper". It's hard to believe that
BHP. and O. Hoopman, for as good as they were, never took the time to
re-draw a set of debugged plans. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: center section cabane strut brackets: |
I made the fittings using two u-shaped brackets. Mostly because I don't
trust my welding enough to depend on them to hold up the plane.
Do the math on these fittings and you will see just how overbuilt a
Pietenpol is. Incredible!
Greg Cardinal
>>> Leon Stefan 09/15 5:31 PM >>>
The plans for the upper cabane spar fittings as "U" channel made of 3/4
X .90 strap, with 2 tab's welded below for the top of the cabane strut.
Several people are telling that is wrong. Need to be 2 "U" channels
welded together at crotch, one facing up the other down. What have you
other builders done? Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth |
The Smithsonian always has an add running in Wooden Boat for information
from their Marine Water Craft plans from the National WaterCraft
Collection.Send a 10.00 check for a 250 page catalog. That must be a bunch
of boat plans. So I suppoose they have something for aircraft. I think I
will look on the net for something.
try http://smithsonian-institution.com
Probably .org or .gov
Gordon
> For moth plans,I'd write or e-mail the smithsonian in wash DC., or the
> imperial war museum in england.
>
> From a corner of my mind, I seem to remember several ww1 biplanes made a
few
> miles from here, in Athol idaho, and the fellow got his plans from
> smithsonian historical files.
>
> I just happen to have a 3 view newport 28 drawing on 1 sheet w/cover off,
> and all bulkheads +wings and ribs in scale. I almost think that I could
> build a full scale airplane from just that sheet.
>
>
> >From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion
> >To: Pietenpol Discussion
> >Subject: Re: Piet/Cub and DH-82 Tiger Moth
> >Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:45:03 -0600 (MDT)
> >
> >I've also been following the Hatz pages quite closely. It's certainly a
> >nice machine. However, the useful load is not as good with the Hatz and
> >eventually, I'd like to have something to put on floats. The Tiger Moth
> >makes a beutiful floatplane with about 650 lbs of useful load left over,
> >even on floats. My idea would be to put the greenhouse on it similar to
> >the Canadian trainer version.
> >
> >Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have been able to shake down a couple of
> >leads. One of the Flying Farmers here in Alberta has one and may have
> >drawings.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 RPas909040(at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > If you're looking for a wonderful, sweet-handling biplane (with a
September 08, 1999 - September 16, 1999
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-be