Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bj
November 09, 1999 - December 13, 1999
the 1" spar is still heavier in the flanges and in the unrouted areas around
the doublers. In addition, it requires longer bolts for all the fittings
which adds yet more weight.
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Leopold [SMTP:frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 8:37 PM
> To: piet
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3 pc wing
>
>
>
> while studying the 3 pc wing supplement, I noticed that the spars were
> changed to 3/4" thick, I assume that the aft spars are not routed at this
> thickness and the rib jig is altered for the 3/4" spar. Am I correct on
> this?.
> Gary
> frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Just when I thought I had it all figured out, somebody makes me re-read the
plans. I was going to use the 1" outboard spar, and the 3/4" center section
spar. With the 1/8" fittings, that would have made the center section
spar/fitting thickness 1". With the 1" outboard spar, then that would have
put the outboard fittings fitting perfectly over the inboard fittings, just
like they appear to be shown on the 3 pc plans.
Then you look at the top of the plan sheet and see 3/4" for wing panel
spars also......
Back to ribs,
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | rudder pedals and aileron control |
can anyone tell me the pros and cons of: (1) the hanging rudder pedals from
the "old" drawings vs. the floor mounted ones in the "improved" drawings.
I have heard that there is some discrepancy and that hanging pedals made to
the old plans do not work, but I do not remember why. Unless there is some
reason why not, I would prefer to use hanging pedals. The less clutter
there is on a floorboard, the less dirt/oil/junk will collect there and the
easier it is to clean.
And (2) the aileron cables attaching to the stick and going out the sides
and up the strut vs. going straight up off of a bellcrank as in the
improved plans. Obviously, there are some asthetics, and it appears a
little (not much) more difficult to get in and out of a Piet with the
cables coming out of the side. Again, I would prefer the old style unless
there is a reason not to that I am overlooking. (it looks more "antique"
and it would save weight by eliminating pulleys, brackets, and bolts)
Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedals and aileron control |
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
writes:
>
>
>can anyone tell me the pros and cons of: (1) the hanging rudder pedals
>from
>the "old" drawings vs. the floor mounted ones in the "improved"
>drawings.
>
>And (2) the aileron cables attaching to the stick and going out the
>sides
>and up the strut vs. going straight up off of a bellcrank as in the
>improved plans.
>
> Gene
1) It is possible to buckle the rudder horn if enough pressure is put on
both hanging pedals at the same time. The rudder bar eliminates that
problem.
2) Don't know about the old vs. new aileron actuation. It doesn't appear
to me that you would eliminate any "pulleys, brackets, and bolts". It
makes a lot cleaner installation with the cable runs inside but the
argument could be made that it would be much easier to inspect/change the
cables if they were exposed.
My own opinion: If Mr. Pietenpol "improved" something, I'm doing it that
way, too.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedals and aileron control |
>
> writes:
> >
> >
> >can anyone tell me the pros and cons of: (1) the hanging rudder pedals
> >from
> >the "old" drawings vs. the floor mounted ones in the "improved"
> >drawings.
> >there may be other reasons but my reason for going to the floor mounted
> pedals up front is that allows me to utilize that upper cross beam as the
> front support for my fuselage fuel tank with clearance under the tank for the
> pedals
> >And (2) the aileron cables attaching to the stick and going out the
> >sides
> >and up the strut vs. going straight up off of a bellcrank as in the
> >improved plans.
> >by going straight up from the bell crank you eliminate that lower "spool"
> type pulley and it's mounting. I kinda like that cross cables in front of
> the windshield, gives you crosshairs for aiming at that sweet spot on the
> runway that you want to touch down at
my opinium only for what it's worth-------JoeC, Zion, Illinois
>
> > Gene
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | attaching spars to wingtip question |
I'm at the point that I will be putting the drag/ anti-drag cables in the
first wing, and have a question on the bkts that hold cable at wing tip.
Looking closely at the prints, I'm not sure if they show two fasteners
comming out at the end of the wingtip where each spar attaches. I first
took it as one bkt on each spar on the inboard side to hold the cable. Is
this right? Did you bring bolt thru tip? One bolt or two per spar?
My plan was to use one bkt on each with a wood screw into tip. Now I'm
rethinking due to this acting as compression strut also.
What did you guys do?
thanks
walt evans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedals and aileron control |
Joe, if you're looking over the nose of a taildragger on landing, your Piet
won't last long enough for you to decide whether you like the arrangement
or not!! (smile)
I accidentally erased an earlier response from someone who mentioned that
you could bend the rudder horn with the hanging pedals. I was talking
about the front pedals, you have the rudder bar in the rear cockpit either
way, so no dice on that idea. I know that I have been told that there was
a problem with the hanging pedals, but can't recall what it was. Also, to
that same person, you do eliminate the center pulleys, brackets, and at
least four bolts through the spar. Of course, you add the "spools" on the
lower longeron, but I think it is a net weight loss. Still wondering if
there is some other reason for the "improvement." I agree, if Bernie
thought it needed improving, it bears a look.
----------
> From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder pedals and aileron control
> Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:59 PM
>
>
>
> >
> > writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >can anyone tell me the pros and cons of: (1) the hanging rudder pedals
> > >from
> > >the "old" drawings vs. the floor mounted ones in the "improved"
> > >drawings.
> > >there may be other reasons but my reason for going to the floor
mounted
> > pedals up front is that allows me to utilize that upper cross beam as
the
> > front support for my fuselage fuel tank with clearance under the tank
for the
> > pedals
> > >And (2) the aileron cables attaching to the stick and going out the
> > >sides
> > >and up the strut vs. going straight up off of a bellcrank as in the
> > >improved plans.
> > >by going straight up from the bell crank you eliminate that lower
"spool"
> > type pulley and it's mounting. I kinda like that cross cables in front
of
> > the windshield, gives you crosshairs for aiming at that sweet spot on
the
> > runway that you want to touch down at
>
> my opinium only for what it's worth-------JoeC, Zion, Illinois
>
> >
> > > Gene
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedals and aileron control |
Joe, if you're looking through the wires in front of you on landing in a
taildragger, your Piet won't last long enough for you to decide whether you
like the aileron arrangement!! (laugh)
I accidentally erased a response from another person who said that you
could bend the rudder horn with the hanging pedals, but I meant the front
pedals, you still got the rudder bar in the rear cockpit either way. Like
I said, I have been told there was a problem with the hanging pedal design,
but don't remember what it is.
On the ailerons, I would eliminate the center pulleys, brackets, and four
(or two?) bolts through the spar by using the old version. Of course, it
does add the "spools" on the lower longeron Joe refers to, but a net weight
loss nonetheless. Jack McCarthy near here has a model A Piet flying with
the old aileron arrangement, his only gripe I know of is that the cable
makes it harder to get into the airplane.
----------
> From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder pedals and aileron control
> Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:59 PM
>
>
>
> >
> > writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >can anyone tell me the pros and cons of: (1) the hanging rudder pedals
> > >from
> > >the "old" drawings vs. the floor mounted ones in the "improved"
> > >drawings.
> > >there may be other reasons but my reason for going to the floor
mounted
> > pedals up front is that allows me to utilize that upper cross beam as
the
> > front support for my fuselage fuel tank with clearance under the tank
for the
> > pedals
> > >And (2) the aileron cables attaching to the stick and going out the
> > >sides
> > >and up the strut vs. going straight up off of a bellcrank as in the
> > >improved plans.
> > >by going straight up from the bell crank you eliminate that lower
"spool"
> > type pulley and it's mounting. I kinda like that cross cables in front
of
> > the windshield, gives you crosshairs for aiming at that sweet spot on
the
> > runway that you want to touch down at
>
> my opinium only for what it's worth-------JoeC, Zion, Illinois
>
> >
> > > Gene
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: attaching spars to wingtip question |
Walt... I could not see using the wing tip bow as a compression
member...which is what it becomes if you follow the plans. The tip is glued
to the spar as a butt joint which we know is not strong, plus a couple of
angle brackets. I added a compression member just inboard of those brackets
so that the tension on the drag and anti drag wires will be taken up by this
member. The added weight I believe is well justified
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <STEVE(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | attaching spars to wingtip question |
Ditto to what I did. In addition I put my fitting in the same location as
the compression struts.
Steve Eldredge
IT Services
Brigham Young University
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> DonanClara(at)aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 4:19 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: attaching spars to wingtip question
>
>
>
> Walt... I could not see using the wing tip bow as a compression
> member...which is what it becomes if you follow the plans.
> The tip is glued
> to the spar as a butt joint which we know is not strong, plus
> a couple of
> angle brackets. I added a compression member just inboard of
> those brackets
> so that the tension on the drag and anti drag wires will be
> taken up by this
> member. The added weight I believe is well justified
> Don Hicks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedals and aileron control |
Gene Rambo wrote:
> Joe, if you're looking over the nose of a taildragger on landing, your Piet
> won't last long enough for you to decide whether you like the arrangement
> or not!! (smile)
>
you're right Gene, when you make that final transition to flair there's nothing
but sky ahead of you---but---what I'm speaking of is upon turning final from
base you have your sight on a touchdown spot and don't want that spot to rise
or drop from your point of reference
just trying to clarify my comment-----
JoeC
________________________________________________________________________________
fly5k(at)listbot.com, aeroengines(at)listbot.com,
pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Am I still here?? |
Havent gotten many emails lately and just wonders if I was off any of the
lists.
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
#6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedals and aileron control |
Gene,
I saw a really well built old style Piet at Brodhead six years ago that
had aileron cables routed directly out the side of the plane. The plane was
really well built, beautiful paint job of yellow and black. I wasn't
interested in the plane because of a number of factors but it sure was well
built.
Crosby
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: attaching spars to wingtip question |
In a message dated 11/10/99 3:16:27 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<< I first
took it as one bkt on each spar on the inboard side to hold the cable. Is
this right? Did you bring bolt thru tip? One bolt or two per spar?
My plan was to use one bkt on each with a wood screw into tip. >>
Walt, the way I saw the plans to read, was to use one bracket at the end of
each spar / wingtip attach point, and for each bracket, I countersunk one
bolt thru the wingtip bow, and two bolts thru the spar. I used AN hardware
throughout, and placed the fiber locking nuts on the bracket side, with
touque seal (touque seal is a little dab of paint on the nuts, to note
movement), at this location (for future inspections). One thing I noticed
when pre-fitting the brackets, was that, without the nuts on the bolts, this
fitting could not be pulled off the bolts !! Bernard did it right again.
Little things like this, is why I always encourage builders to FOLLOW THE
PLANS !!
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jason Good <jgood(at)bloomnet.com> |
Anyone out there anywhere close to northcentral Nebraska. Would like to
visit a project in process. Keep in mind that I am used to traveling
long distances. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com> |
Jason, Piet NX899TC has the wings off for winter, but you're welcome to come
to Des Moines and look at mine. Give me some warning and I'll give you the
tour. If you wait until spring I'll take you up in it. My rules for rides
is you have to weigh less than 300 lbs, be able to get in without destroying
the plane and not have a backside so big that I can't work the rudder bar.
Copinfo(at)home.com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Good <jgood(at)bloomnet.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nebraska
>
> Anyone out there anywhere close to northcentral Nebraska. Would like to
> visit a project in process. Keep in mind that I am used to traveling
> long distances. Thanks.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Cunningham" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
| Subject: | Best Sandable glue for laminating?? |
Hello to all,
I am just about to build the wing tip bows for my Hatz. Was gonna use good
old T-88 but realized I might
be getting myself into a real nightmare of a sanding job. Which aircraft
grade glue sands the best?
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Cunningham <copinfo(at)home.com>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nebraska
>
>Jason, Piet NX899TC has the wings off for winter, but you're welcome to
come
>to Des Moines and look at mine. Give me some warning and I'll give you the
>tour. If you wait until spring I'll take you up in it. My rules for rides
>is you have to weigh less than 300 lbs, be able to get in without
destroying
>the plane and not have a backside so big that I can't work the rudder bar.
>Copinfo(at)home.com
>Tim Cunningham
>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jason Good <jgood(at)bloomnet.com>
>To: Pietenpol List
>Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 8:19 AM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nebraska
>
>
>>
>> Anyone out there anywhere close to northcentral Nebraska. Would like to
>> visit a project in process. Keep in mind that I am used to traveling
>> long distances. Thanks.
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A Piet in progress |
Jason,
Good morning, if you are anywhere, anytime, down Texas way, feel
free to get in contact with me and I will give you the classic $1.00,
free with coupon, tour of a Pietenpol Aircamper (Improved), under
construction with a one piece wing. This is not the usual 25 cent tour,
see it thru the fence and move on tour, but a sit in it and touch it
tour, and throw in a tour of a Curtis Jenny under rebuild, to boot.
I am located in Bandera, a town of around 900 people 65 miles northwest
of San Antonio and about 24 miles south of Kerrville.
Seriously, we (me and two others) have our Piet located on a grass
strip (1700 ft ?) in a metal hanger. The fuselage is completed and up
on the landing gear. The empennage is complete and the wing is assembled
but not quite glued/fastened down, nor are the alierons cut loose yet.
We have not started the covering process yet either.
We would be happy to let you see our progress, just drop an e-mail and
I'll give further directions.
Rodger Childs
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Best glue for sanding |
Mike,
Best glue would be T-88, no problems. It is not real hard as to leave
a high point and have the wood on either side sanded low, it will sand
evenly with the wood. Now, sanding a T-88 glue joint in foam may be
another story.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Best glue for sanding |
Instead of sandpaper, use a file. It will cut the glue without
eating away the wood on both sides of the glue line
unnecessarily.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Am I still here?? |
Loud & Clear
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Leopold" <frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Is anyone using a wing tank and a fuselage tank. If so are you using the
wing tank to feed the lower tank?.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kyle ray" <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Douglas fir. |
Yes I'm using douglas fir and the weight is not that great,
to figure the difference you just figure total weight of
wood used probabaly not over 175 to 200 lbs now figure
the difference by calculating the cross products of a proportions
are always equal.
spruce= 28lbs per sq.foot total weight of fuselage,tail,wing =200 lbs
douglas=33lbs per sq. foot total weight of fuselage,tail, wing=unkown
33 X 200=6600 6600/28=235.7
you probably could cut down on dimension example=longerons
from 1"x1" to 1"x7/8 and get the weight dwon to the same as spruce
----- Original Message -----
From: <vistin(at)juno.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douglas fir.
>
> Steve wrote:
>
> How many of yall are using Goug Fir in your construction. Are you making
> any provisions for the weight differential? If so what are you doing.
> There really isnt that much wood used in the construction. I would say in
> all about 150lbs mebby. (Big guess)
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> #6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve wrote:
Yep Im gonna use the wing tank n fuse tank too. I think I will feed the
fude tank when it is over half empty/full.
Steve
writes:
>
>
> Is anyone using a wing tank and a fuselage tank. If so are you using
> the
> wing tank to feed the lower tank?.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bradley & Lorraine James <dogladdy(at)mindspring.com> |
Gary: I did this on my Steen Skybolt. I used a push, pull cable and a
aircraft grade fuel valve near the fuse tank. Works great !
>
>Is anyone using a wing tank and a fuselage tank. If so are you using the
>wing tank to feed the lower tank?.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
--- Gary Leopold wrote:
>
>
> Is anyone using a wing tank and a fuselage tank. If
> so are you using the
> wing tank to feed the lower tank?.
>
In a project I helped (Piper Cub Replica) the owner
wanted to do some extensive flying so we built a wing
tank of less than 3/4 the capacity of the "cowl
tank", we instaled a valve on top of the instrument
panel, he positioned the handle of the valve in the
close position with the handle "up" when he had the
wing tank full, when the gas level of the main tank
was at 1/4 the capacity, he openedthe valve, when the
wing tank got empty he positioned the valve in closed
position with the handle "down", so he knew that the
wing tank was empty.
Saludos
Gary Gower
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: airplane tires |
Bob,
Those tires and wheels would be awfully heavy for a Piet. You would
have to go to an aircraft supply house like Aviall or OmniAir to get
tires like those and they would be very expensive, probably in the
neighborhood of $300.00 ea.
We got our wheels and brakes from salvage yard in Washington State and
we only paid a little over $300.00 for them. They came from a 140 HP
Cherokee and were the standard 6.00 X 6 Cleveland's. The dealer also
sent us an extra set of slave cylinders incase there was some corrosion
in the originals - not an uncommon occurance. I was able to grab hold of
a pair of really good used tires from where I worked, so tires cost us
nothing.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
----------
> From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tanks
> Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
>
>
>
> --- Gary Leopold wrote:
> > Not to state the obvious, but why not save the weight and complexity
and just feed directly from the top tank into the lower and then to the
engine with no valve (except the shut off at the firewall)? You'll always
have to fuel through the top wing, but you'd do that anyway. Gene
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve wrote:
Has any of yall routed your spars? How much did you remove. How did yall
do it,/Between ribs or as a unit.
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Routed spars. |
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
>
>Steve wrote:
>
>Has any of yall routed your spars? How much did you remove. How did
>yall
>do it,/Between ribs or as a unit.
>
>Steve
>
>Steve W GN-1 builder
>IHA #6
>
Steve,
>The Pietenpol plans (drawing #5) show the dimensions for routing the
spars. Don't know a thing about Mr. Grega's plans but suggest you contact
him. Or perhaps there is a GN-1 site or list that would know about it.
and to Doug Bryant........
Got the tach in fine shape. GREAT job of packing, thanks. Keep me in the
loop!
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | ribs---well done |
finally!!! the last rib is completed--22 standard.,,2 w/extra uprights,,2
left-2 right w/ply-sides. now shopping for spar material
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
working on my landing gear. I am using discs and
rotors from a 4 wheeler. but would like to use an
aluminum wheel with a solid surface on the outside and
inside. I've seen the asuza wheels but get the
impression that they break. six inch would be ok but
taller would be nicer. I could make up a wood pattern
and have them cast. but if somebody already makes
them, that would be better. the 1934 plans show a
solid wheel about 19 inches tall, probably made of
sheet steel. where could I find those?
thanks
the flying farmer
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | awl42(at)webtv.net (Autry Leonard) |
| Subject: | Re: wood joysticks |
Why would you consider using wood for a joystick? I believe most of us
have seen a baseball bat crack, and I for one wouldn't want to be over
the threshold and hit a gust of wind and make a quick correction only to
find the cracked wood joystick stub in my hand.
If you feel that you have to have wood, then why not use the wood as a
sleeve over the metal. This of course is adding additional weight and I
thought the idea was to keep things as light as possible, but to each
"his own".
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Conoly" <conolys(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ribs---well done |
Way to go , Joe....
One step at a time. I just used up about 8 of those turnbuckles you sent
me.
Just about got my controls in now. 60% done 75% to go. Started thinking
about fabric today,too!
Actually started dreaming about color schemes for the first time , too.
Man! I wish I was rich and retired.....
Bert
-----Original Message-----
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 10:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs---well done
>
>finally!!! the last rib is completed--22 standard.,,2 w/extra uprights,,2
>left-2 right w/ply-sides. now shopping for spar material
>JoeC
>Zion, Illinois
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wood joysticks |
Why not go down to your local craft store and buy a wooden ball, drill it for
size and slip over the top of the joystick. With a little bit of stain and
varnish it is quite attractive. I did this for my daughter's pedal plane and
it worked out nice.
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ribs---well done |
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
>
>finally!!! the last rib is completed--22 standard.,,2 w/extra
>uprights,,2
>left-2 right w/ply-sides. now shopping for spar material
>JoeC
>Zion, Illinois
>
>
> Joe
Let me know what you decide for spars, Maybe we can piggy-back an order
and save some $$.
Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | 3/4" Spar Spacing in Ribs |
Unhappy with my first attempt at a spar jig, I threw it away and lofted the
wing. I'm glad I did, because it allowed me to work through a few details
and smooth the airfoil to my satisfaction.
In making measurements for the spars and the internal rib braces, I'm face
to face with the problem of what to do with the extra space resulting from
using a 3/4" spar instead of the 1" spar to which the rib drawings were
made. At this time I see five options:
1. Leave it as is and position the spars against the aft vertical brace as
indicated, leaving the 1/4" "free" space on the front edge of the spar.
2. Position spar as indicated and adjust the forward and aft rib brace
accordingly to take up the 1/4" spacing.
3. Move the spars and their single aft vertical brace the 1/4 inch front
and rear, thus increasing the distance between the spars from 27 3/4" to 28
1/4".
4. Split the difference fore and aft for each spar and adjust the position
of the internal bracing accordingly.
5. Leave spar and internal bracing as indicated but insert a second
vertical brace on the front edge of the spar and thus lock in the spar to
each rib. This is what appears to be done in the ribs offered by
Replicraft.
See http://www.replicraftaviation.com/piet%20qb%204.htm
I like the last option. What say the rest of you builders out there?
The archives are great, but I went through 114 rib messages without finding
an answer before sending this.
Thanks for your help.
Michael
sylph(at)uswest.net
Pietenpol Rib Jig in Portland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TXTdragger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 3/4" Spar Spacing in Ribs |
In a message dated 11/13/1999 11:33:26 AM Central Standard Time,
sylph(at)uswest.net writes:
<< I went through 114 rib messages without finding an answer >>
6. caulk it with 1/4" caulk (construction term) LOL
John D (#10)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FordPiet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Good Short Piet Article in Nov EAA Experimenter |
Pages 8-12 of Nov EAA Experimenter have a history of Piets. Next month they
will run an article on engines for the Piet and Jan they will discuss
building and flying the Piet. Nice shot of NX13691 on the Nov cover -- the
oldest still flying Piet.
Hap
Shreveport, LA
Need to get started
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: 3/4" Spar Spacing in Ribs |
Michael- I'm still a ways from having to deal with this, but I did talk
about this subject with some guys at Brodhead. I too am using the 3/4 inch
spar.
I was told that it would be best to keep the spar in the same relative space
fore and aft to keep all of the other fittings the same as the plans. Build
the ribs according to the plans. Then, at each point on the spar where
there will be a rib, glue in a 1/8 inch piece of plywood on the rear of the
spar. Where fittings are to be placed, also glue a 1/8 piece on the front,
effectively giving a 1 inch thickness. It made sense to me, and is a simple
lightweight solution.
Good luck. Let us know what you finally do.
Al Swanson
Fuselage done, ribs done, working on the gear.
>
>Unhappy with my first attempt at a spar jig, I threw it away and lofted the
>wing. I'm glad I did, because it allowed me to work through a few details
>and smooth the airfoil to my satisfaction.
>
>In making measurements for the spars and the internal rib braces, I'm face
>to face with the problem of what to do with the extra space resulting from
>using a 3/4" spar instead of the 1" spar to which the rib drawings were
>made. At this time I see five options:
>
>1. Leave it as is and position the spars against the aft vertical brace as
>indicated, leaving the 1/4" "free" space on the front edge of the spar.
>
>2. Position spar as indicated and adjust the forward and aft rib brace
>accordingly to take up the 1/4" spacing.
>
>3. Move the spars and their single aft vertical brace the 1/4 inch front
>and rear, thus increasing the distance between the spars from 27 3/4" to 28
>1/4".
>
>4. Split the difference fore and aft for each spar and adjust the position
>of the internal bracing accordingly.
>
>5. Leave spar and internal bracing as indicated but insert a second
>vertical brace on the front edge of the spar and thus lock in the spar to
>each rib. This is what appears to be done in the ribs offered by
>Replicraft.
>See http://www.replicraftaviation.com/piet%20qb%204.htm
>
>I like the last option. What say the rest of you builders out there?
>
>The archives are great, but I went through 114 rib messages without finding
>an answer before sending this.
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Michael
>sylph(at)uswest.net
>Pietenpol Rib Jig in Portland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Does anyone kmow of a website on the GN-1 air camper?? Or someone that
has some pixs on there site.
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Rib jig correction - OOPS |
Try as one will, something slips by you when you least expect it. Another
reason to go slow and measure five times before cutting :>).
In my question about the spar spacing in the rib jig, I was focused on the
spar and misspoke. To clarify for those of you who haven't already figured
it out, I should have said rib jig.
Thanks for your indulgence and help.
Michael
sylph(at)uswest.net
Pietenpol Rib Jig in Portland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ribs---well done/spars next |
> > Joe
>
> Let me know what you decide for spars, Maybe we can piggy-back an order
> and save some $$.
>
> Larry
Larry---I've decided to go with 3/4" spars and 3/32 ply fillers for ribs and
metal fittings..my metal fittings and ribs are built to accomodate a 1"
spar...3/32ply fillers will allow room for glue which I don't think I'd have if
I went with 1/8" ply fillers. one day next week I plan to visit McCormick
lumber in Madison Wi, to look over their Sitka Spruce, I'll let you know what
I find, You can check them out at , they are
only about 1 1/2 hrs from me. I also plan to eliminate that small wedge on top
of the ribs by cutting that angle on the spar top. hope to have the center
section completed b-4 the years end but I don't know, those holidays are
sneeking up on me pretty quick and I think my bride might have other plans for
me between now and years end.
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Pasley" <larrypasley(at)prodigy.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GN-1 website. |
E-mail me at lpasley(at)prodigy.net I have a GN-1.
----- Original Message -----
From: <vistin(at)juno.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 website.
>
> Does anyone kmow of a website on the GN-1 air camper?? Or someone that
> has some pixs on there site.
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> IHA #6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Vi Kapler's Plans? |
HELP! Please. Let's see, it's been about ten hours or more by now. I've
spent the better part of the day going over the same thing and I'm going to
bed leaving things where I started and with no place to pick up tomorrow.
Can anyone tell me if Vi Kapler has an e-mail address or how his 3-piece
wing plans differ from the one page wing supplement I have with his name on
it dated 1975 and revised in March '82?
I'm ready to order some wood, but I want to use it wisely, and not find out
sometime in the future that I have to rebuild my ribs or come up with a
patch job to make it work.
I make precision woodworking tools everyday and work to tolerances of plus
or minus .001. It can be a pain sometimes, but I'm starting to develop an
attitude about working with drawings and numbers that are off by as much as
a quarter inch. I've gone through a couple years worth of archived e-mails
on wings, airfoils, ribs, and spars and an awful lot of remarks about "just
build it to the plans or it's not a Pietenpol."
Thanks in advance.
Michael
Going crazy in Portland
sylph(at)uswest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vi Kapler's Plans? |
Vi doesn't do the e-mail thing. but he answers the
phone just about anytime you call him. I don't have
his number handy but he lives in rochester mn 507 area
code.
I'm a moldmaker by trade and am familiar with better
laid out plans also but by listening to other people
and doing a little design work myself, I'm having fun
building my own personalized peit. the peit's
tolerances are "wide open". the important stuff is on
the drawings. and the rest you can do by asking or
thinking.
del
--- Sylph wrote:
>
>
> HELP! Please. Let's see, it's been about ten hours
> or more by now. I've
> spent the better part of the day going over the
> same thing and I'm going to
> bed leaving things where I started and with no place
> to pick up tomorrow.
>
> Can anyone tell me if Vi Kapler has an e-mail
> address or how his 3-piece
> wing plans differ from the one page wing supplement
> I have with his name on
> it dated 1975 and revised in March '82?
>
> I'm ready to order some wood, but I want to use it
> wisely, and not find out
> sometime in the future that I have to rebuild my
> ribs or come up with a
> patch job to make it work.
>
> I make precision woodworking tools everyday and work
> to tolerances of plus
> or minus .001. It can be a pain sometimes, but I'm
> starting to develop an
> attitude about working with drawings and numbers
> that are off by as much as
> a quarter inch. I've gone through a couple years
> worth of archived e-mails
> on wings, airfoils, ribs, and spars and an awful lot
> of remarks about "just
> build it to the plans or it's not a Pietenpol."
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Michael
> Going crazy in Portland
> sylph(at)uswest.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ribs---well done |
Let me know about spar material, I need some too. Maybe a quantity
discount for large orders??
----------
> From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs---well done
> Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 10:49 PM
>
>
> finally!!! the last rib is completed--22 standard.,,2 w/extra uprights,,2
> left-2 right w/ply-sides. now shopping for spar material
> JoeC
> Zion, Illinois
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ribs---well done/spars next |
I guess I am missing something basic. I was not aware that a large number
(apparently) are using 3/4" spars. Why is this? purely weight savings?
Who/when/how was it that determined 3/4 was sufficient? Also, I was not
aware Replicraft ribs were for 3/4", I thought they were for 1". Steve,
which is it?
----------
> From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs---well done/spars next
> Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 8:27 PM
>
>
> > > Joe
> >
> > Let me know what you decide for spars, Maybe we can piggy-back an order
> > and save some $$.
> >
> > Larry
>
> Larry---I've decided to go with 3/4" spars and 3/32 ply fillers for ribs
and
> metal fittings..my metal fittings and ribs are built to accomodate a 1"
> spar...3/32ply fillers will allow room for glue which I don't think I'd
have if
> I went with 1/8" ply fillers. one day next week I plan to visit McCormick
> lumber in Madison Wi, to look over their Sitka Spruce, I'll let you know
what
> I find, You can check them out at , they
are
> only about 1 1/2 hrs from me. I also plan to eliminate that small wedge
on top
> of the ribs by cutting that angle on the spar top. hope to have the
center
> section completed b-4 the years end but I don't know, those holidays are
> sneeking up on me pretty quick and I think my bride might have other
plans for
> me between now and years end.
> regards
> JoeC
> Zion, Illinois
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: ribs---well done/spars next |
In a message dated 11/14/99 8:11:49 AM Central Standard Time,
rambog(at)erols.com writes:
<< I was not aware that a large number
(apparently) are using 3/4" spars. Why is this? purely weight savings?
Who/when/how was it that determined 3/4 was sufficient? >>
Gene,
I can't speak for the rest of the crowd, but I plan to use 3/4" Douglas
Fir Spars (not routed). My logic is this...
1) I studied the plans which call for 1" routed spruce. I immediately
started thinking...ROUTED??...wow thats a lot of work and not much room for
mistakes in doing the routing.
2) I noticed that the routing takes the 'web' down to 1/2' in in some areas.
3) I thought to myself...how much weight does the routing on a spruce spar
actually save? I figured that it must save about a third or a little more,
based on the ratio of the area routed -vs- not routed.
4) I talked to some folks who've used 1" spruce without routing. And they
seemed happy to have gone that route. So I began to start leaning in that
direction.
5) Then I priced Spruce. Whoa!!! That hurts in the wallet!!!
6) From my experience, I had known that a lot of Type Certified aircraft
used Douglas Fir spars. So I priced it and found out that it was almost 1/2
the price of spruce.
7) I knew Douglas Fir was nearly twice the weight but also was nearly twice
as strong as spruce, too. So I began to wonder just how thick would a
Douglas Fir spar need to be to be as strong as a 1" spruce routed spar.
8) Then I ran into some folks on this list who were talking about using 3/4"
Douglas Fir. Also, I had the opportunity to see three different Piet
projects with 3/4" spruce.
9) I considered the options of changing my rib jig or not and one of the
guys convinced me that I its best leave it set for a 1" spar, so that all of
the other dimensions will work themselves out. Seemed logical...I could just
use shims to make up the difference at the ribs and add doublers at the
attach fittings.
10) I realized that this is a little heavier and stronger than spruce routed
would be.
11) I decided that I like the trade-off. But with the additional weight in
mind I committed myself to be very weight conscious on the entire project.
To me this seems to be the best structural decision with lowest cost.
Anyway...thats my logic. By the way...I am building red cedar ribs. These
are about the same weight or a little lighter than spruce and a LOT less
expensive. Sacrifice a little in strength, but My belief is that the 1/4" X
1/2" capstrips are a little overkill anyway. (My opinion.) This is the great
thing about building a Piet. You get to weigh all of the factors yourself
and determine for yourself what is sufficient. If you lack confidence in
your own judgement, you can always fall back on Bernie's judgement. His must
have been pretty good, wouldn't you agree?
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Replicraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 3/4" Spar Spacing in Ribs |
Michael-
In answer to your rib question:
If I were using the 3/4" spars I would keep the center to center distances
the same as if using the 1" spar. This center to center dimension is carried
down to the cabane mounts on the fuselage and on to the gear mounts.
Do not move the spars forward or rearward, simply move your up-rights 1/8" on
either side, rather than the full 1/4" on one side.
Our ribs pictured in your reference, are for the 1" spars, not the 3/4"... I
have simply added up-rights on both sides of the spars. We also add 1/2"
square members on each side of the spar on the butt ribs only, to allow
material to carve out for the fittings.
Steve
Replicraft Aviation
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Replicraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GN-1 website. |
Steve-
We have some Grega pages, http://www.replicraftaviation.com
- go to aircraft listings, and click on the GN-1.
By tomorrow, there will be a section with photos of all the parts we have
for this aircraft.
Steve
Replictraft Aviation
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vi Kapler's Plans? |
Thanks Del,
I'll give Vi a call today.
Personalizing one's very own airplane is inherent to the process of
homebuilt aircraft, however, I'm more than a little surprised at the extent
of personalization from the get go. I've designed a number of things in my
work experience, but never an airplane. Over the past six weeks or so, I've
spent in the neighborhood of a hundred hours of R&D work to find out that I
have yet more to do before I actually start building.
Believe me, my frustrations aren't with an aesthetic or personalized part of
the plane, but with basics like wing ribs and spars. Just one example: the
full size rib drawing shows a vertical measurement near the center of both
front and rear spars of 5 13/16". It's unclear as to what this measurement
is for or if it is to the inside or outside of the top and bottom cap
strips. Nevertheless, to get that measurement one would have to move the
front spar aft about 1 1/8" and the rear spar would have to be moved forward
nearly 8". Maybe I have a bad copy?
In lofting my wing I've, not surprisingly, come up with a different set of
numbers than those provided. Not much mind you, but different nonetheless.
There are 21 verticals from the horizontal datum line with two dimensions
each that define the top and bottom airfoil surfaces. The shallow curves of
the bottom camber can be lofted without one getting bent out of shape (pun
intended), but the top surface is another story: 11 of the 21 points were
modified from
-1/64" to +1/16". It may appear to some of you that I'm overstressing the
point here, but I've never built a wing before, and I'm counting on it to
carry me safely through the sky. What say ye experienced ones?
Once this is behind me, I look forward to such personalized considerations
as type of engine, center wing section layout and use, interior (do open
cockpit airplanes have interiors?), seats, instruments and controls. My
main concern at the moment is that I build a sound airframe upon which those
expressions of personal taste can be confidently made. I trust my work, but
I'm less sure when I have to modify a 70 year old wing. Am I really asking
too much to get it right after 70 years? I don't think so.
Ordering my Flyer and Glider Manuals today, and asking questions of those
who've gone before. First wood order goes into Wicks tomorrow.
Thanks,
Michael
Winging it in Portland
----- Original Message -----
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
>
> Vi doesn't do the e-mail thing. but he answers the
> phone just about anytime you call him. I don't have
> his number handy but he lives in rochester mn 507 area
> code.
> I'm a moldmaker by trade and am familiar with better
> laid out plans also but by listening to other people
> and doing a little design work myself, I'm having fun
> building my own personalized peit. the peit's
> tolerances are "wide open". the important stuff is on
> the drawings. and the rest you can do by asking or
> thinking.
> del
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | DaCosta's Web-site? |
Fellow Piet enthusiasts,
I've been out of touch for a while and cannot access Richard DaCosta's site
anymore. Has it been moved, or crashed, or what? I miss those nifty Piet
mpegs and great pictures. Referrals, please?
Thanx, Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdecost1(at)maine.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: DaCosta's Web-site? |
The site will be back up soon. I am re-doing a major portion of the
server. Thanks,
Richard
On 14 Nov 99, at 15:28, ADonJr(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Fellow Piet enthusiasts,
> I've been out of touch for a while and cannot access Richard DaCosta's site
> anymore. Has it been moved, or crashed, or what? I miss those nifty Piet
> mpegs and great pictures. Referrals, please?
> Thanx, Don Cooley
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DaCosta's Web-site? |
Thanks Richard! Looking forward to getting back in to take a look and
search for answers to my many questions.
Michael
Portland
>
> The site will be back up soon. I am re-doing a major portion of the
> server. Thanks,
> Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Original wheels would have been wire wheels with no brakes. The original
plans call for 24x4 wire wheels (the rim is actually 16") This is what I
have. The later "improved" plans show a 26x4 wheel (18" rim). Both would
have been used on the Curtiss Jenny, but the larger one was more common on
them. Wire wheels can either be covered with fabric or with aluminum
"dishes" to streamline. Many airplanes from the '20s used large dish
wheels, but they were aluminum, not sheet steel. These came in a variety
of sizes, with and without brakes. These are rare, expensive, and HEAVY.
Not to mention, not original for a Piet. Many folks make their own wire
wheels, and often add brakes. I know of one who took standard 6" wheels
and added a motorcycle rim and spokes. He has brakes and it looks
surprizingly good. Of course, many, many Piets have standard 6" wheels and
look great. Balloon tires make them look even better. Your choice. Gene
----------
> From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
> To: piet aircamper
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: wheels
> Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 10:48 PM
>
>
> working on my landing gear. I am using discs and
> rotors from a 4 wheeler. but would like to use an
> aluminum wheel with a solid surface on the outside and
> inside. I've seen the asuza wheels but get the
> impression that they break. six inch would be ok but
> taller would be nicer. I could make up a wood pattern
> and have them cast. but if somebody already makes
> them, that would be better. the 1934 plans show a
> solid wheel about 19 inches tall, probably made of
> sheet steel. where could I find those?
> thanks
> the flying farmer
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello,
On an A-powered Piet, has anyone ever tried putting the radiator behind the
prop as on a jenny? I've been told there isn't enough room and it would cut
down the effectiveness of the prop. Any ideas?
Thank you
Mike Johnston,
Plainview Minnesota
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams) |
Mike,
Some years back someone put the
radiator behind the prop in a scaled down Jenny replica that used a
Model A engine. It was a very nice looking installation. As it turned
out, the radiator behind the prop didn't interfere with the efficiency
of of the prop as much as the prop interfered with the efficiency of the
radiator. They ended up having to add another good sized radiator in
the cooling air outlet from the cowl, underneath the engine.
Another consideration is the fact that you would have to extend the
crankshaft out far enough to allow for the radiator, making propeller
balance of paramount importance.
Lauren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Leopold" <frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | 3/4 spar spacing / wing position |
With a A-65 eng and long fuselage, I am told to move the wing aft 3 to 4
inches. I assume that I slant the cabanes aft but leave the fuselage
fittings in their original position according to the long fuse plans. If so
with the 3/4 inch spars maintaining the same spar centerline isn't as
important as maintaining the spar spacing of 27 3/4". Is this correct?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Leopold" <frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Does anyone have a good source for Douglas Fir here in the mid-west.
Everything I have looked at is hardly suitable for firewood.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DaCosta's Web-site? |
Thanks Richard...it's a wonderful resource that you provide for us fellow
Piet followers!
Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 11/11/99 8:25:35 AM Central Standard Time,
jgood(at)bloomnet.com writes:
<< Anyone out there anywhere close to northcentral Nebraska. Would like to
visit a project in process. Keep in mind that I am used to traveling
long distances. Thanks. >>
Hey Jason, is Wichita KS too far ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
In the Minneapolis area try Scherer Bros. Lumber at
612 379-9633 or Youngblood Lumber at 612 789-3521.
Supply is erratic.
Greg Cardinal
>>> "Gary Leopold" 11/14 7:00 PM >>>
Does anyone have a good source for Douglas Fir here in the mid-west.
Everything I have looked at is hardly suitable for firewood.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
>
>Hello,
>On an A-powered Piet, has anyone ever tried putting the radiator
>behind the
>prop as on a jenny? I've been told there isn't enough room and it
>would cut
>down the effectiveness of the prop. Any ideas?
>Thank you
>Mike Johnston,
>Plainview Minnesota
Mike
If you can get a picture of Jim Malley's Piet (a Wright Bro.s winner)
from about 6 yrs ago you'll see pretty much what you're asking about. He
used a Ford Fiesta engine and ran the propshaft through the radiator but
found he needed an aux. radiator to get the temp down to an acceptable
level. Looks like the chin radiator on a Kit Fox.
His address is:641 Jersey Ave.
Jersey City, NJ 07302
If you can find a copy of the Kitplanes magazine from July 1992, his
account and pics are there.
But..........what's wrong with the top-mounted radiator??
Larry>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FordPiet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines |
Does anyone have or know of where I can find some information on the Funk
"Ford B" Engine. I would like to know what modications they made when they
converted it for use in their Funk airplanes. I've read a little about it in
the book "It's A Funk" but it didn't go into much detail. Also, does anyone
have a Funk engine and/or parts for sale? Thank you for any help you can
give me.
Hap,
Need to get started
Shreveport/Bossier City, LA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee Schiek" <concrete(at)qtm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines |
The foremost, absolute, without-a-doubt guru on Ford/Funk engines is Lowell
Frank, located somewhere in central Wisconsin. He's always at Brodhed with
his Piet, and always has some new tweaking process he's done. By now, he's
probably got about 500 h.p. out of his Funk, with 10,000 hr TBO! Maybe
someone else can come up with an address or phone # from old BPA
newsletters. He's a joy to listen to, and can quote specs from day
one......good luck.
Lee in MI
Piet plan reviewer and "gettin' started since 1976
----------
> From: FordPiet(at)aol.com
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines
> Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 1:46 PM
>
>
> Does anyone have or know of where I can find some information on the Funk
> "Ford B" Engine. I would like to know what modications they made when
they
> converted it for use in their Funk airplanes. I've read a little about
it in
> the book "It's A Funk" but it didn't go into much detail. Also, does
anyone
> have a Funk engine and/or parts for sale? Thank you for any help you can
> give me.
>
> Hap,
> Need to get started
> Shreveport/Bossier City, LA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Del: What about using atv. Wheels. You are already using atv hubs and
rotors. You can custom order them blank(they will have a small pilot
hole). My hubs have a 1 3/4 boss. I ordered mine with that size center
hole and drilled the lug bolt holes my self. Mine are 8" wheels. Leading
Edge Airfoils sells skinned 8X21"tall tire's as used on the Kitfox.
gives it the old Goodyear Air Wheel look, and nice flotation which could
be a nice blessing in the event of a forced landing in a soft farm
field. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Per Ford Piet. Good luck finding a funk engine. I haven't even been
able to locate a regular B engine. Although my search has only been half
hearted, I have asked local Model A club members, at t swap meets, and
junk dealers with lots of A stuff. They only laugh and say "you and 10
thousand others". I did find a Funk head I may sell if I give up and go
the A engine route. The Funk could be used on the A engine, but I
probably would go with a new mfg. alum. A head. I'll keep you in mind.
Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines |
don't know if it's current but the last listing I have on Lowell Frank is- PO
Box 581,
Okauchee, Wi. 53069. tel #414-367-5044
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
Lee Schiek wrote:
>
> The foremost, absolute, without-a-doubt guru on Ford/Funk engines is Lowell
> Frank, located somewhere in central Wisconsin. He's always at Brodhed with
> his Piet, and always has some new tweaking process he's done. By now, he's
> probably got about 500 h.p. out of his Funk, with 10,000 hr TBO! Maybe
> someone else can come up with an address or phone # from old BPA
> newsletters. He's a joy to listen to, and can quote specs from day
> one......good luck.
>
> Lee in MI
> Piet plan reviewer and "gettin' started since 1976
>
> ----------
> > From: FordPiet(at)aol.com
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines
> > Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 1:46 PM
> >
> >
> > Does anyone have or know of where I can find some information on the Funk
>
> > "Ford B" Engine. I would like to know what modications they made when
> they
> > converted it for use in their Funk airplanes. I've read a little about
> it in
> > the book "It's A Funk" but it didn't go into much detail. Also, does
> anyone
> > have a Funk engine and/or parts for sale? Thank you for any help you can
>
> > give me.
> >
> > Hap,
> > Need to get started
> > Shreveport/Bossier City, LA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | spruce in the lumberyard |
I listen to many of you say how hard it is to get lumber for your project.
For me finding what I need is part of the fun. I go to the lumber yards
around here, and just poke-around. On the third trip I found two spars and
lots of material for the ribs. All this for $30.00, you see what I found was
a 2x12x20. No, it wasn't all clear but it did have a sizable section that
was. To get large clear sections you must look at the big stuff. Its not to
hard to find wood that is dense enough. Grain direction is another story, It
should not be more then 30 degrees off the "two inch" detention. Run out
isn't usually a factor. Good hunting.
Howdy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines |
The Funk Bros used a Model B block and mounted it inverted. The head was of
their own design. The distributor drive hole was used to drive a Chrysler
oil pump mounted below the engine. Oil dam rings were fastened at the
cylinder "tops" to prevent oil from running down into the cylinders. The oil
was collected from each end of the crankcase and the valve chamber. The oil
was routed to an oil tank and then to the oil pump. External lines feed the
oil gallery and then the bearings. I don't know how the oiled the rods. I
suspect that they drilled the crank. (I have drilled a B crank for pressure
oiling and can tell you how if you want to try it.) These changes made the
engine into an inverted dry sump system. the water pump and magneto drive
casting was also of their own design. the rad was mounted against the
firewall and the cooling air ducted to it. A lot of work!
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: FordPiet(at)aol.com <FordPiet(at)aol.com>
Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 11:59 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines
>
>Does anyone have or know of where I can find some information on the Funk
>"Ford B" Engine. I would like to know what modications they made when they
>converted it for use in their Funk airplanes. I've read a little about it
in
>the book "It's A Funk" but it didn't go into much detail. Also, does
anyone
>have a Funk engine and/or parts for sale? Thank you for any help you can
>give me.
>
>Hap,
>Need to get started
>Shreveport/Bossier City, LA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
Hey Leon, How badly do you want a B?
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 1:57 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Funk engine
Stefan)
>
>Per Ford Piet. Good luck finding a funk engine. I haven't even been
>able to locate a regular B engine. Although my search has only been half
>hearted, I have asked local Model A club members, at t swap meets, and
>junk dealers with lots of A stuff. They only laugh and say "you and 10
>thousand others". I did find a Funk head I may sell if I give up and go
>the A engine route. The Funk could be used on the A engine, but I
>probably would go with a new mfg. alum. A head. I'll keep you in mind.
>Leon S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
thanks for that info. I didn't realize you could buy
them that way. do you have any recomendations as to a
good source?
del
--- Leon Stefan wrote:
> leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>
> Del: What about using atv. Wheels. You are already
> using atv hubs and
> rotors. You can custom order them blank(they will
> have a small pilot
> hole). My hubs have a 1 3/4 boss. I ordered mine
> with that size center
> hole and drilled the lug bolt holes my self. Mine
> are 8" wheels. Leading
> Edge Airfoils sells skinned 8X21"tall tire's as used
> on the Kitfox.
> gives it the old Goodyear Air Wheel look, and nice
> flotation which could
> be a nice blessing in the event of a forced landing
> in a soft farm
> field. Leon S.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>
> Settlement...
> http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html
>
>
>
>
>
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines |
Hal Try Al Ball c/o Santa Paula Airport, Santa Paula, Ca. He is an antique
engine guru for many years and used to own a Model B powered Funk (may still
have it) Sorry I don't have the address but if you really want to follow it
up it shouldn't be too tough to find it. Tell him Don Hicks said Hi !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Dulisch" <dulisch(at)mail.hsonline.net> |
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:18:17 -0700
If it is any help, the Funk engine was popular on the Ford N series farm tractor. Check out: www.yesterdaystractors.com and go to the Ford N Board. Lots of guys there might be able to help you out.
>
>Hey Leon, How badly do you want a B?
>John Mc
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leon Stefan <leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net>
>To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com
>Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 1:57 PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Funk engine
>
>
>Stefan)
>>
>>Per Ford Piet. Good luck finding a funk engine. I haven't even been
>>able to locate a regular B engine. Although my search has only been half
>>hearted, I have asked local Model A club members, at t swap meets, and
>>junk dealers with lots of A stuff. They only laugh and say "you and 10
>>thousand others". I did find a Funk head I may sell if I give up and go
>>the A engine route. The Funk could be used on the A engine, but I
>>probably would go with a new mfg. alum. A head. I'll keep you in mind.
>>Leon S.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FordPiet(at)aol.com |
All,
1. Thanks for the inputs -- I will follow up on them.
2. The Ford N tractor engine looks very similar, but they are not the same
(in fact the N tractor motor is part of the frame for the tractor and while
its very strong, it is also very heavy.
3. I spent about a year looking for a 32-34 4cylinder block. The hardest
thing is finding one close enough to where you are so you can go look at it
before you purchase it. One good source of information is Hemmings Motor
News, under the 32-53 Parts. The Nov issue listed two engines for sale -- I
don't have any information on them except what was in the adds: page 8595
"1933 Model C engine 4-cyl, rebuilt with transmission, may hear run. $1,200.
Ph 508-943-8742, MA" and the other one was on page 8592, "C engine, (no
price or condition listed), ph 970-686-2926 after 5 pm, CO." I know -- Ford
never built a "C" engine, but lots of folks still call the 32-34 with the
counter-weighted crankshaft by that name. If anyone wants me to keep you
posted on the 32-34 4-cyl engine adds, just let me know. I read the Hemmings
for other Ford parts. I don't need another engine -- but if the first one is
really rebuilt and in good condition, that's a great price. The hard part is
one person's definition of rebuilt may be just removing some shims, filing
the bearing caps, and bolting it back together (I looked at such a "rebuilt"
engine once).
4. Again, thanks to everyone who has already or will in the future send me
some information on the Funk "Ford B" engine.
Hap Tucker,
Bossier City/Shreveport LA
Need to get started
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john hodnette <jhodnette(at)tecinfo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wanted Info on Funk "Ford B" Engines |
I will try to look back in my BPA Newsletters and find the Funk Piet
guy. I saw it at Brodhead about 10 years ago. Not sure if the B
designation meant anything except the number of bearing surfaces on the
cam. I think the Funk engine was inverted with a modified oil pump
system and had a radiator below the engine on the angle from the prop
ring to the bottom front of the fuselage. Interesting setup. John
Hodnette
________________________________________________________________________________
Gene,
Rodger Childs here, builder with Pietenpol in progress, one piece wing,
1" spar.
I think a reason for the 3/4" spars may be that the Piper Cub used the
3/4" spars, back when the wings were wooden, and so does the Wag-Aero
Sport Trainer, a pure Cub copy.
Since the Cub and the Piet are similar in weight, size, engine hp, ect.,
and since the Cub is a certified airplane where the Feds have done their
scrutiny thing, as well as Piper, it is safe to ASSUME (?) that 3/4"
spars will work for the Piet too. This may be the reason 3/4" is a good
spar choice, and maybe cost is a factor too, don't know about that.
Weight savings may be a side benefit.
Some even speak of routing the rear spar 1/8" deep when using the 3/4"
spars. BUT if Piper didn't do it, I wouldn't do it either. No need to
be a test pilot if you don't need to be, especially if you are not
getting paid for it.
My drawings from Wag-Aero show the Sport Trainer airfoil, and therefor
the spars, to be deeper than the Piet airfoil and spars. So routing the
rear spar on a 3/4" Piet spar, even 1/8" deep, would seem foolish.
Who/when/how was it that determined 3/4" was sufficient? Don't know,
but it's easy to follow the thinking. Ha, there I go leading the witness
as Perry Mason would say.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
Ref: Michael's frustrations over different dimensions, esp. the airfoil.
The data for the Piet airfoil as given by Orin Hoopman is for the
outside of the airfoil. This is standard in the aircraft industry.
Draw it out full scale using dots where the dimensions are given and
connect the dots and it does seem that some of the figures are
incorrect. However, NOWADAYS, most drawings are done with electrons
on a computer screen, but before that most, no, all the drawings were
on vellum or mylar and not on paper. Paper swells and shrinks with
humidity and the dimensions may have been good when Orrin Hoopman drew
them on paper and measured them, but no longer.
But draw the dots and using a wooden or plastic spline and lead ducks,
adjust the spline untill most of the dots are connected and the line
is fair. Disregard the flyers, dots that is, and make it fair. The other
way is to get about four extra pairs of hands to hold the spline in
place whilst you connect the dots with a sharp pencil. Remember, this
is not a laminar flow airfoil.
Do this on a wooden board painted white for best contrast and cut the
airfoil to the outside of the pencil line, but barely. Then sand the
cut edge of the pattern piece smooth and use it to make the rib fixture.
It will work out ok. Oh, and yes, open cockpit airplanes DO have
interiors, it's just that you're looking at one side or the other of
the same thing, or, if you use smoke and mirrors it shows the same
thing too.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
The Fordson N conversion was a V8! Bernard built one Piet with a V8 flathead
but it was too heavy!
J Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dulisch <dulisch(at)mail.hsonline.net>
Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Funk engine
>
>If it is any help, the Funk engine was popular on the Ford N series farm
tractor. Check out: www.yesterdaystractors.com and go to the Ford N Board.
Lots of guys there might be able to help you out.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
Thanks again for the input Rodger. This helps when we new builders are
looking for reason and precedence to bolster our confidence in making
another of those important early decisions.
Michael
Waiting on Vi Kapler's wing drawings and wood order from Wicks
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> I think a reason for the 3/4" spars may be that the Piper Cub used the
> 3/4" spars, back when the wings were wooden, and so does the Wag-Aero
> Sport Trainer, a pure Cub copy.
>
> Since the Cub and the Piet are similar in weight, size, engine hp, ect.,
> and since the Cub is a certified airplane where the Feds have done their
> scrutiny thing, as well as Piper, it is safe to ASSUME (?) that 3/4"
> spars will work for the Piet too. This may be the reason 3/4" is a good
> spar choice, and maybe cost is a factor too, don't know about that.
> Weight savings may be a side benefit.
>
> Some even speak of routing the rear spar 1/8" deep when using the 3/4"
> spars. BUT if Piper didn't do it, I wouldn't do it either. No need to
> be a test pilot if you don't need to be, especially if you are not
> getting paid for it.
>
> My drawings from Wag-Aero show the Sport Trainer airfoil, and therefor
> the spars, to be deeper than the Piet airfoil and spars. So routing the
> rear spar on a 3/4" Piet spar, even 1/8" deep, would seem foolish.
>
> Who/when/how was it that determined 3/4" was sufficient? Don't know,
> but it's easy to follow the thinking. Ha, there I go leading the witness
> as Perry Mason would say.
>
> Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Thanks, Rodger, I can see the thinking, but unless weight/wing
area/distance between fittings/etc. are the same I don't think such
comparisons are necessarily valid. Having said that, though, I never had
any doubt that 1" is overbuilt, just wondering where "approval" came from.
Being a purist, I'll stick with 1" spar, routed, one-piece wing.
Gene
----------
> From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/4" Spars
> Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 10:54 PM
>
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Gene,
>
> Rodger Childs here, builder with Pietenpol in progress, one piece wing,
> 1" spar.
>
> I think a reason for the 3/4" spars may be that the Piper Cub used the
> 3/4" spars, back when the wings were wooden, and so does the Wag-Aero
> Sport Trainer, a pure Cub copy.
>
> Since the Cub and the Piet are similar in weight, size, engine hp, ect.,
> and since the Cub is a certified airplane where the Feds have done their
> scrutiny thing, as well as Piper, it is safe to ASSUME (?) that 3/4"
> spars will work for the Piet too. This may be the reason 3/4" is a good
> spar choice, and maybe cost is a factor too, don't know about that.
> Weight savings may be a side benefit.
>
> Some even speak of routing the rear spar 1/8" deep when using the 3/4"
> spars. BUT if Piper didn't do it, I wouldn't do it either. No need to
> be a test pilot if you don't need to be, especially if you are not
> getting paid for it.
>
> My drawings from Wag-Aero show the Sport Trainer airfoil, and therefor
> the spars, to be deeper than the Piet airfoil and spars. So routing the
> rear spar on a 3/4" Piet spar, even 1/8" deep, would seem foolish.
>
> Who/when/how was it that determined 3/4" was sufficient? Don't know,
> but it's easy to follow the thinking. Ha, there I go leading the witness
> as Perry Mason would say.
>
> Rodger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | 3/4" Spar Spacing in Ribs |
Hi Michael,
I kept the 27-3/4" measurement constant and just extended the plywood
doublers on the front side of the front spar and the rear side of the rear
spars, but didn't add any extra vertical struts to the ribs (why add
weight?). Even these doublers are probably not necesarybecause once the
drag wires are tight, the whole thing compresses against the uprights on the
internal side of the ribs. The doublers I added were loose enough to fit
over the piece of spar material I included in my rib jig, but once the spars
were varnished, they were too tight and had to be sanded to allow the ribs
to slip into place.
Jack Phillips
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sylph [SMTP:sylph(at)uswest.net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 12:32 PM
> To: Pietenpol List
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/4" Spar Spacing in Ribs
>
>
> Unhappy with my first attempt at a spar jig, I threw it away and lofted
> the
> wing. I'm glad I did, because it allowed me to work through a few details
> and smooth the airfoil to my satisfaction.
>
> In making measurements for the spars and the internal rib braces, I'm face
> to face with the problem of what to do with the extra space resulting from
> using a 3/4" spar instead of the 1" spar to which the rib drawings were
> made. At this time I see five options:
>
> 1. Leave it as is and position the spars against the aft vertical brace
> as
> indicated, leaving the 1/4" "free" space on the front edge of the spar.
>
> 2. Position spar as indicated and adjust the forward and aft rib brace
> accordingly to take up the 1/4" spacing.
>
> 3. Move the spars and their single aft vertical brace the 1/4 inch front
> and rear, thus increasing the distance between the spars from 27 3/4" to
> 28
> 1/4".
>
> 4. Split the difference fore and aft for each spar and adjust the
> position
> of the internal bracing accordingly.
>
> 5. Leave spar and internal bracing as indicated but insert a second
> vertical brace on the front edge of the spar and thus lock in the spar to
> each rib. This is what appears to be done in the ribs offered by
> Replicraft.
> See http://www.replicraftaviation.com/piet%20qb%204.htm
>
> I like the last option. What say the rest of you builders out there?
>
> The archives are great, but I went through 114 rib messages without
> finding
> an answer before sending this.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Michael
> sylph(at)uswest.net
> Pietenpol Rib Jig in Portland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spruce in the lumberyard |
Howdy Howdy,
Could you explain the 30 degrees off the 2" detention? I've figured out
the 8 rings per inch by 15 inch runout (6 for doug fir), but wondered about
the slope of the grain when viewed from the end. I realize you want to see
straight grains (quarter sawn), but what is the acceptable slope of the
grains before rejection? Is that the 30 degrees you mention? What is "2
inch detention" mean?
Anyone, Anyone?
Thanks,
Joe Krzes
>From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: spruce in the lumberyard
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:07:26 EST
>
Its not to
>hard to find wood that is dense enough. Grain direction is another story,
>It
>should not be more then 30 degrees off the "two inch" detention. Run out
>isn't usually a factor. Good hunting.
> Howdy
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
one of the follows on this list stated that he felt the LEAF tires looked a
little thin. Have you taken a look at these tires?
If they are used on the Kitfox, I 'd think they would be ok on a Piet...
>From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:25:04 -0600 (CST)
>
>Stefan)
>
>Del: What about using atv. Wheels. You are already using atv hubs and
>rotors. You can custom order them blank(they will have a small pilot
>hole). My hubs have a 1 3/4 boss. I ordered mine with that size center
>hole and drilled the lug bolt holes my self. Mine are 8" wheels. Leading
>Edge Airfoils sells skinned 8X21"tall tire's as used on the Kitfox.
>gives it the old Goodyear Air Wheel look, and nice flotation which could
>be a nice blessing in the event of a forced landing in a soft farm
>field. Leon S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
writes:
>
>Thanks, Rodger, I can see the thinking, but unless weight/wing
>area/distance between fittings/etc. are the same I don't think such
>comparisons are necessarily valid. Having said that, though, I never
>had
>any doubt that 1" is overbuilt, just wondering where "approval" came
>from.
>Being a purist, I'll stick with 1" spar, routed, one-piece wing.
> Gene
>Gene
I was going to chide you for needing "approval" but decided it wouldn't
be very nice.
Mr. Pietenpol used 3/4" spars. Admittedly, they were laminated but that
is where all this 1" vs 3/4" confusion may have started. The precedent
was set before we were born.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
Hey Piet-List gang,
I couldn't help but think about the choice of spar thickness' and the
homebuilt community as a whole and a famous quote came to me from the
movie, Blazing Saddles, ... "We don't need no stinkin' approval" (hee)
Aren't we a great bunch, out enjoying the legacy of Bernie P. and it
shows in a wonderful plane and the grins on our collective faces.
Pretty soon we may even displace Van's bunch of RV's as the most popular
homebuilt.
As they say, "Low and slow, forever"
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: spruce in the lumberyard |
Joe,
When viewed from the end with the board on its flat side, the grain should
not be more then 30 degrees from vertical. When the sawmill saws the log,
the boards from the center of the log will have the grain as if it was
quarter sawn. I was trying to say "dimension."
Howdy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Del: The wheels are from Douglas wheels, inc.4040 Avenida De La Plata,
Oceanside Ca. 92056 (760) 758-5560. They are 2 piece welded together.
You have a choice of depth's in each half. I ordered 3'' front and 3''
back for 6'' wide. In May I gave $112.40 plus s&h for the pair. Issue
33 of BAPNews, 1991 ran an article called "light weight landing gear".
If you don't have that issue, I could send you a copy if you send me
your address. Send direct to my e-mail if you want. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Borodent(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet Airfoil |
With regards to the airfoil shape, my plans (Hoopman) do not mention a
plywood leading edge upper cover to the first spar. I saw in Mike Cuys video
that he uses one. Am I missing something or is there another set of plans
that call for this-- or is it just an accepted improvement? Whats the
thinking on this- are most builders using the ply? Also would you slightly
recess the profile to accomindate the thickness of this ply? Is it 1/16?
Birch?
Henry Williams (just setting up my rib jig )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet Airfoil |
Henry,
My plans are as follows:
Drawing No. 5
Wing Plan Date: 3-3-34
Designed by: B. H. Pietenpol
Drawn By O.C. Hoopman
In the very top left corner of the page there is a 9" arc at the leading
edge with the following notation:
"Cover leading edge of wing the entire lengthy with sheets of 6 ply hard
cardboard or 1/16" plywood"
Type of ply isn't referenced, but nearly any type would be an improvement on
cardboard. I haven't considered this until now, so I haven't decided what I
will do. My gut response is that I will make a choice in favor of weight,
durability, and strength. Cardboard would probably last as long as bed
sheets but, with the longer lasting fabrics most of us use today, it will be
there for quite a while. That said, I don't think I'll be going the
cardboard route.
Michael
Studying plans &
Waiting on Vi Kapler's 3-piece wing drawings & materials from Wicks
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: <Borodent(at)aol.com>
> With regards to the airfoil shape, my plans (Hoopman) do not mention a
> plywood leading edge upper cover to the first spar. I saw in Mike Cuys
video
> that he uses one. Am I missing something or is there another set of plans
> that call for this-- or is it just an accepted improvement? Whats the
> thinking on this- are most builders using the ply? Also would you
slightly
> recess the profile to accomindate the thickness of this ply? Is it 1/16?
> Birch?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
==HEY EVERYBODY, GRANT"S BACK!!!!!!!!!!
Looks like Grant is finally out of the home-building mode and back up on
the BPAN website.
Good news for all Pietenpol builders/flyers.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
No chiding necessary. I am the last person to worry about approval, that
is why I put quotations around it.
----------
> From: Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/4" Spars
> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 11:35 AM
>
>
>
> writes:
> >
> >Thanks, Rodger, I can see the thinking, but unless weight/wing
> >area/distance between fittings/etc. are the same I don't think such
> >comparisons are necessarily valid. Having said that, though, I never
> >had
> >any doubt that 1" is overbuilt, just wondering where "approval" came
> >from.
> >Being a purist, I'll stick with 1" spar, routed, one-piece wing.
> > Gene
> >Gene
>
> I was going to chide you for needing "approval" but decided it wouldn't
> be very nice.
>
> Mr. Pietenpol used 3/4" spars. Admittedly, they were laminated but that
> is where all this 1" vs 3/4" confusion may have started. The precedent
> was set before we were born.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
Hi Henry,
The Hoopman plans (1934) do call out for 1/16" plywood or heavy cardboard to
cover the leading edge back to the spar. Look in the upper left corner of
the wing sheet. I wouldn't worry about the extra thickness - just glue it
on top of the ribs. You will have to steam it or soak it in hot water if
you want to wrap it around the ledaing edge and cover to the spar on the
bottom side as well. Refer to the EAA's book "Wood Aircraft Building
Techniques" for tips on how to work with plywood.
I haven't decided whether I will use plywood or 2024-T3 aluminum sheet for
the leading edge. Plywood is certainly stronger when glued to each rib, but
aluminum is a lot easier to work with, and is cheaper. Aluminum is
certainly stronger than cardboard, whcih was used on most of the early
Pietenpols. 1/16" Birch plywood and .016" thick 2024 aluminum are almost
exactly the same weight - either one will add 10 lbs to the total weight of
the wing. Most wood wing airplanes today use aluminum for leading and
trailing edges. I'm sure Bernard would have used aluminum if it were
readily available back in 1929. I will probably go with the aluminum.
I already have aluminum trailing edges installed on my wing. They are easy
to install and are strong and perfectly straight.
Good Luck,
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borodent(at)aol.com [SMTP:Borodent(at)aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 7:44 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet Airfoil
>
>
> With regards to the airfoil shape, my plans (Hoopman) do not mention a
> plywood leading edge upper cover to the first spar. I saw in Mike Cuys
> video
> that he uses one. Am I missing something or is there another set of plans
>
> that call for this-- or is it just an accepted improvement? Whats the
> thinking on this- are most builders using the ply? Also would you
> slightly
> recess the profile to accomindate the thickness of this ply? Is it 1/16?
>
> Birch?
>
> Henry Williams (just setting up my rib jig )
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet Airfoil: Ply cover |
| From: | John E Fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
LEADING EDGE PLY COVER
I am planning on covering mine with 1/32" Finland birch. Costs the same
as 1/16" but only has half the weight. According to Vi Kapler it would
be fine and it does not have to be faired into the rib, or sanded to a
feather edge, etc.
John in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
Bernard Pietenpol thought so...he went to 3/4" spars on his later airplanes
Donl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet Airfoil: Ply cover |
John in Peoria,
In the early 1970's my friend used 1 mm Finish birch on his Pietenpol
wing leading edge and we had to remove it because it developed
waviness with increased humidity. Fortunately this took place before
covering with fabric. We substituted 2024T3 aluminum (.016", I think
it was) with good results.
I used 1/16" mahogany ply on my Pietenpol leading edges without any
problems and made a 1/2" scallop on the aft edge between ribs. If I
were to do it again, I would stay with the 1/16" mahogany and use a
"false rib" between regular ribs to eliminate the scallop. The false rib
need not be a truss; a properly shaped upper capstrip extending to just
aft of the front spar would be fine. While smooth, my ply L.E. cover al-
lows the airfoil thickness to reduce between ribs, making for a thinner
section overall. False ribs would correct this.
If you use the 1/32" birch plywood, glue it in place while wet so that it
will remain smooth and taut in a high humidity environment. I understand
T-88 will work with wet wood, but have only used it dry. (We didn't have
T-88 when my friend glued his ply in place during our dry winter weather.)
Cheers,
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | McCormick spruce |
for those that asked, mc cormick lumber in madison wi still is selling
sitka spruce. haven't had the chance to get up there yet but I did get
some prices from andy
mc cormick. 1"x6"x14' $69.16 ea, 1"x6"x29" $14.82 ea. these are rough
cut sizes.
I did specify aircraft quality when I made the request.
if you want to contact andrew mc cormick, it's
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: McCormick spruce |
fishin wrote:
> for those that asked, mc cormick lumber in madison wi still is selling
> sitka spruce. haven't had the chance to get up there yet but I did get
> some prices from andy
> mc cormick. 1"x6"x14' $69.16 ea, 1"x6"x29" $14.82 ea. these are rough
> cut sizes.
> I did specify aircraft quality when I made the request.
> if you want to contact andrew mc cormick, it's
>
> regards
> JoeC
> Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | I'm doing it the hard way |
I don't know what I was thinking... One thing I do know, is that if I could
turn back time, I would attach the wing spars to the center spars before
any kind of building.
Snap a 30 ft. chalk line and fit the 3 spars together, nicely butted, and
fabricate and drill the brackets. Only thing to deal with is sliding all
the ribs on from the tip end due to the ply glued on the spar at the butt
joint. That would have been nothing compared to what I'm doing
now.....trying to attach brackets to the wing, and have everything come out
straight.
should have worn my "Thinking Cap" more.
walt evans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry) |
| Subject: | Re: I'm doing it the hard way |
Thanks for the tip Walt. I have been wondering how to keep it all straight
and your idea makes sense, if you have the room.
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 4:09 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: I'm doing it the hard way
>
>I don't know what I was thinking... One thing I do know, is that if I
could
>turn back time, I would attach the wing spars to the center spars before
>any kind of building.
>Snap a 30 ft. chalk line and fit the 3 spars together, nicely butted, and
>fabricate and drill the brackets. Only thing to deal with is sliding all
>the ribs on from the tip end due to the ply glued on the spar at the butt
>joint. That would have been nothing compared to what I'm doing
>now.....trying to attach brackets to the wing, and have everything come out
>straight.
>should have worn my "Thinking Cap" more.
>walt evans
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: McCormick spruce |
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
>
>for those that asked, mc cormick lumber in madison wi still is
>selling
>sitka spruce.
Joe
It was me asking. Looks like I might have to make a trip to MSN soon.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
While waiting on wood, I'm studying the plans and laying out the finishing
touches on my newly lofted airfoil and rib jig. I have a question about the
leading edge: What coordinates determine it's shape, or is it a
discretionary item? In trying to work this out, I noticed the 1 1/2" mark
at the leading edge isn't used. What is it's purpose? Also, one final ;>)
question, in looking at the ribs others have built and displayed on line at
aircamper.org, the angle of the 1/2"x1/2" spruce leading edge brace isn't
referenced.
My copy of Vi Kapler's wing plans may clear some of this up when they get
here next week.. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Michael
Waiting on Vi Kapler's 3-piece wing plans, and spruce from Wicks
sylph(at)uswest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ref: Leading Edge |
Michael,
Ah, the leading edge. Approach it as a free form work of art, get out
the pencil and eraser and paper or poster board and lay the airfoil
pattern on it, forward area only, and pencil in the shape just aft of
the leading edge. Then draw a verticle line to reference the leading
edge and draw what looks like a proper leading edge curve. Forget the
French Curve and try and try various shapes. That's about it.
You are correct that the 1 1/2" dimension is to be ignored after the
first time you try to incorporate it in the leading edge curve. It may
work, but don't be suprised if it is better to ignore it. It does make
the leading edge look somewhat "funny", giving the L.E. a somewhat
sharp or small radius. Make the L.E. radius a little bigger.
The "angle" of the 1/2" X 1/2" brace is of no concern, so to speak, it
is to be determined by the line drawn from the points given by the 2"
dimension on top of the L.E., and the lower figure of 3/8" 1 1/2" back.
This is basicly the way we approached it and it works quite well.
Good luck,
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Leading Edge |
Ahh! I can do that. The pressure to conform is gone and I can wing it.
So, today I'm an artist able to express myself freely without the
constraints of connecting the dots or keeping my colors between the lines.
From my recent experience with this, I think I'll try to keep the depth of
the leading edge to the angled 1" as indicated and then consider the attach
bolt that passes through the 1/2"x1/2" leading edge brace.
Thanks for your help Rodger,
Michael
Waiting on materials and working on rib jig
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> Ah, the leading edge. Approach it as a free form work of art, get out
> the pencil and eraser and paper or poster board and lay the airfoil
> pattern on it, forward area only, and pencil in the shape just aft of
> the leading edge. Then draw a verticle line to reference the leading
> edge and draw what looks like a proper leading edge curve. Forget the
> French Curve and try and try various shapes. That's about it.
>
> You are correct that the 1 1/2" dimension is to be ignored after the
> first time you try to incorporate it in the leading edge curve. It may
> work, but don't be suprised if it is better to ignore it. It does make
> the leading edge look somewhat "funny", giving the L.E. a somewhat
> sharp or small radius. Make the L.E. radius a little bigger.
>
> The "angle" of the 1/2" X 1/2" brace is of no concern, so to speak, it
> is to be determined by the line drawn from the points given by the 2"
> dimension on top of the L.E., and the lower figure of 3/8" 1 1/2" back.
>
> This is basicly the way we approached it and it works quite well.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner to this, but I work full time and
am a full time student. I have absolutely no complaints about the job
Matt Dralle is doing on this discussion group and I'm very grateful he
was willing and able to donate his time to this project. It really
iritates me to hear people complain about the efforts someone makes in
helping an organization along. There are many of us out here trying to
build a really fun airplane and many really need help.
I've been in aviation nearly all my life and have been a mechanic for
over three decades. I'm in the process of changing vocations, being
burned out trying to make a living at it and the transport aircraft I
work on now don't interest to me and often the work days are simply
drudgery, but I'm having a ball building this little Piet and I'm really
getting exited about being able to fly it soon (I hope!). I haven't
solo'd since January 1966.
Bad mouthing and back biting is what can destroy any organization and
cannot be tolerated. For sure, constructive criticism or suggestions can
help, but outright rebellion does not help any of us. I fell in love
with aviation in 1955 when I was given an airplane ride as fifteen year
old Civil Air Patrol Cadet and decided then to spend my life in aviation.
I learned to fly and when I couldn't afford to become a commercial pilot
I went to A&P school in Tulsa. I spent 25 years working in general
aviation and have seen a lot of changes. My tool box is older than many
of the guys I work with today and many of these kids accuse me of pulling
the chocks from the Wright Flyer. They can't believe I've really
recovered fabric airplanes or prefer to fly in single engine light planes
over an airliner (actually, airliners scare me to death. After watching
the maintenance some of these clowns do and what is let loose I'll never
fly in one again).
General aviation is in trouble and I think we all know it. I've been a
member of the EAA since 1963 and feel the only way a little guy is going
to be able to fly anymore is to build his own airplane. I cannot afford
to buy even a used airplane. I've thought about a wrecked plane several
times - I've rebuilt fifteen "totaled" airplanes over the years - but I
can't afford to buy the parts. We're putting a Model A in our Piet
because we want to - it looks cool - but also, if someone were to give me
an airplane engine I couldn't afford to overhaul it, and I've overhauled
over a hundred aircraft engines over the years. I overhauled a C-90 four
or five years ago and we did everything as cheaply as possible. It still
cost $5000 and I only charged the owner $200 to assemble it.
Between the complaints over our discussion group and the last EAA
convention at Oshkosh, I've gotten somewhat discouraged. No, I don't
like to spend a lot of money, but the EAA exists for our benefit and it
takes money to run the organization and it takes money to fight for our
rights to fly. The convention is a fund raiser to fight for our rights.
It is also a show of power to have all those people show up for such an
event. Politicians get real nervous when they see all these potential
voters support or take part in such an activity. I was able to go to
Oshkosh in '95 and made the effort because I know they tried to get a
million people there that year. This wasn't achieved, but I was there
hoping maybe to make a million and one.
I also don't like our new logo nor do I like the commercialization I've
been told of, but I will still support the EAA because of what it has
done for you and me. I hope to be able to visit Oshkosh more often in
the future and I intend to fly the Model A powered Piet to Brodhead and I
am going to stay with Matt Dralle's Piet list.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
>
> I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner to this, but I work full
>time and
>am a full time student. I have absolutely no complaints about the
>job
>Matt Dralle is doing on this discussion group and I'm very grateful
>he
>was willing and able to donate his time to this project.
John
Well said! You gave me a new perspective on how I should be thinking
about the EAA instead of passing them off as money-grubbing bureaucrats
who don't really have much interest in grass-roots homebuilders anymore.
Thanks, it was refreshing and I probably needed it.
Also, your comments about this list was right-on. I think you summed up
the opinions of the vast majority of us who are really into building,
flying, and keeping the memory of Mr. Pietenpol alive.
Fords Forever!!
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com> |
John I think you were right on. Larry you're right about the EAA, but just
because they've given up on us poor folks doesn't mean we should give up on
them. We need to let them know that us airplane builders that don't have
thousands are out here too. If they don't change, we'll start a new EAA.
Copinfo(at)home.com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | more spoke wheels |
I'm looking for a set of instructions that will show me how to set up cut,
measure, and roll thread spokes from hub to rim, so that I can lace up and
double cross my spoke wheels myself.
After looking for the last 6 mths, it seems everyone who hears the word
airplane is promptly frightened out of the business.
Anybody know of a book?
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Contribution / Donation |
Items for sale w/ proceeds to help maintain Matronics websites.
Offers should be directed to:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Upon receipt of donation amount, items will be shipped.
No reasonable offer refused!
Unreasonable ones considered!
This will be a one-time posting.
NEW:
Heated Pitot Tube, 24v. "L" shaped.
Aero Instruments #5814-2
Flap Motor w/ adjustable stops. 24v.
Comm.Aircraft Prods. #D145-00-35-7
USED:
Narco Transponder AT5-A
Astronautics amplifier servo 53-005-214 mod#P1SA
Narco altitude reporter. to 25k' Model# AR500
King KS-505 power supply modulator
RCA AVQ55 Weather radar antenna MI 591000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: more spoke wheels |
I have a copy of an article on trueing (sp?) spoked wheels. As to how to
make your own spokes, I have never seen anything like that. Buchanans in
California custom makes spokes, or you may find motorcycle spokes the right
size, length, and angle, without having to order. The motorcycle shops I
have been to have not balked at the word airplane, and Buchanan's said they
do aircraft all the time. (I can give the address and phone # if you need)
I don't know whether any bicycle spokes are strong enough, but i kind of
doubt it.
----------
> From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: more spoke wheels
> Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 11:38 PM
>
>
> I'm looking for a set of instructions that will show me how to set up
cut,
> measure, and roll thread spokes from hub to rim, so that I can lace up
and
> double cross my spoke wheels myself.
>
> After looking for the last 6 mths, it seems everyone who hears the word
> airplane is promptly frightened out of the business.
>
> Anybody know of a book?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: more spoke wheels |
I talked to:
Buchanan Spoke and Rim, Inc.
805 W. Eighth St
Azusa, CA 91702
(626) 969-4655
(626) 812-0243 fax
All they needed were hub dimensions, rim manufacturer/model
and a description of spoke layout, i.e. uncrossed/crossed, gage
and direction of spoke head relative to flange
Price was quoted over the phone. No hassle, approx $1.60
per spoke.
I don't think the word "airplane" was mentioned.
Greg Cardinal
>>> "oil can" 11/21 10:38 PM >>>
I'm looking for a set of instructions that will show me how to set up
cut,
measure, and roll thread spokes from hub to rim, so that I can lace
up and
double cross my spoke wheels myself.
After looking for the last 6 mths, it seems everyone who hears the
word
airplane is promptly frightened out of the business.
Anybody know of a book?
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: more spoke wheels |
Had Buchanans do my wheels, as they are close to me. They used 9 gauge
stainless steel spokes with rolled threads, and assured me that each spoke was
capable of taking at least 1000 pounds of direct pull. The rim will deform
before the spoke fails. They also do sell spokes for about $1.00 each in a
set. Just give them your lengths.
Cheers,
Warren.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: more spoke wheels |
I made my own wheels, and spoked them myself. Wasn't hard at all. Only
thing that I made was the hub, and I'm not a machinist. Made with
motorcycle rims, Harley spokes ( about $40.00 per wheel) any shop has them,
and made the hubs from 4130 tubing, with bronze bushings.
Pictures are on the aircamper site, under me.....
walt evans
ps. If anyone wants sizes or numbers, let me know
-----Original Message-----
From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 11:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: more spoke wheels
>
>I'm looking for a set of instructions that will show me how to set up cut,
>measure, and roll thread spokes from hub to rim, so that I can lace up and
>double cross my spoke wheels myself.
>
>After looking for the last 6 mths, it seems everyone who hears the word
>airplane is promptly frightened out of the business.
>
>Anybody know of a book?
>
>Bob
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: more spoke wheels |
Well Oil Can, the gang gave you several ways to go. I also made my hub and
shot it off to Buchanan. If you,re handy, go Walt's way and make 'em...that's
the least expensive way. I ain't rich but I know my limits so I went the
costlier way and had them made. The first set of wheels I had Buchanan make
was nearly thirty years ago. My Piet wheels are the third set they've done. I
know of many antique a/c restorations they have built wheels for. In every
case they knew they were to be used on an airplane and never refused to do
it. If you decide to go that way you'll get a first class job by experts. I'm
not that swift on rolling threads but I have the feeling that it's something
the average guy would have a problem doing himself. I don't like cut threads
so it was one more reason I went with Buchanan. Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bconoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Need dimensions for J-3 Cub wheel/brakes for use on Grega. |
Hello list.
I initially built my main gear (Grega GN-1) and completed them just enough
to be able to slide the wheels/tires on and be able to move the fuse around
in my shop. That was about a year ago. Now I want to finish the main
gear/wheel/brake system. I am using 8 x 4.00 wheels and tires from a J-3 (I
think). My problem is I dont really know EXACTLY how the brake backing
plate and wheels are oriented on the axle. Also I am a bit nervous that the
brake backing plate + the width of the assembly + the wheel width + the
threaded end of the axle = more axle length than I have left myself.
Unfortunately I did not leave myself an inch or two extra length like I wish
I had. DRAT!
So I guess what I am needing is a cutaway of the J-3 wheel/brake assembly
with dimensions . Or pictures??
Does anyone know if this is available? I might upset the local cub owners
if I start pulling off their landing gear right there on the ramp...
For those familiar with it, I built to the Grega plans.
I would appreciate any help here. Thanks In Advance.
Bert Conoly
bconoly(at)surfsouth.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rolled vs. Cut Threads |
Hey gang,
One of the cool things about a list like this is some of the
general things that you pick up while gleaning facts about a
particular aircraft. For instance, I realized that there appears
to be another way to thread a spoke or other piece of metal other
than "cutting" threads. I assume that cut threads are what I am
familiar with; cut with a die twisted over a round piece of
material. From the discussion it appears that "rolled" threads
are done differently and may have different strength
characteristics. Who can fill me in on the differences in method
and strength(s) between the two and where which shoud be used.
Thanks,
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | Re: Rolled vs. Cut Threads |
Hi Mike,
Rolled threads are made by rolling the wire between two die plates with a
set of parallel grooves cut into the plates. The grooves are set at the
correct pitch angle to impress the thread form onto the wire. Essentially
the threads are "cold-forged" into the wire, producing a much stronger
thread. Cutting threads usually results in some nicks and scratches at the
root of the thread which produce stress concentrations and provide places
for cracks to begin. Since the thread rolling process sort of mashes the
metal into shape, the surface is left under compressive stress, whcih allows
it to better resist tensile loads.
Sorry for the technical jargon. I'm an engineer and tend to think in such
terms. Now for the simple version: Rolled threads are stronger for two
reasons - not only are the threads produced smoother, but no metal is
removed to produce the thread, it is simply moved around to the proper
shape. They are actually cheaper to produce once the dies are made, since
the threads can be rolled very quickly (threads for spokes can typically be
rolled in under a second - you can't cut threads that fast without
overheating the wire). Most high strength thread applications such as wheel
spokes or flying wires use rolled threads.
I have a picture in an old textbook showing the process. I can FAX it to
you if you provide me with a fax number, in case my description above isn't
clear (which it probably isn't).
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Bell [SMTP:mbell(at)sctcorp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:25 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rolled vs. Cut Threads
>
>
>
> Hey gang,
>
> One of the cool things about a list like this is some of the
> general things that you pick up while gleaning facts about a
> particular aircraft. For instance, I realized that there appears
> to be another way to thread a spoke or other piece of metal other
> than "cutting" threads. I assume that cut threads are what I am
> familiar with; cut with a die twisted over a round piece of
> material. From the discussion it appears that "rolled" threads
> are done differently and may have different strength
> characteristics. Who can fill me in on the differences in method
> and strength(s) between the two and where which shoud be used.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Bell
> Columbia, SC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Mike,
For extra strength, and also peace of mind, threads can be rolled with
a special machine which presses or forms the threads into the metal
thereby making the threads more dense and stronger. Cutting the threads
removes metal, of course, and sets up areas of stress in all the sharp
areas of the thread. This concentrates the load there and they will
fail sooner than if the threads were rolled on. Think of rolled threads
as a forging process for extra strength. The rolling process gains an
extra 10~20% in strength.
This process is not difficult, it is fast and is capable of high
production runs, BUT the machinery to do it costs a lot! Best let
someone do it who already has the equipment and has made several million
threads that way.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ref: Rolled Threads |
Jack,
You beat me to it on the description of rolled threads. I did forget
to add one important thing though about rolled threads: one thing leads
to another, as they say, and that leads to wire spoked wheels which
lead to a much nicer looking Pietenpol!
Our Piet sits on the "improved" balloon tires for now, but I can't help
but see that in the future I'll be making a set of wire wheels for it.
Wire wheels...sigh.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Rolled Threads |
Several of you have alluded to it, but not right out said it, that rolled
thready are beyond the average homebuilder to make. More importantly, even
if you could, that would only be one end of the spoke. The other end, with
the "bulb" on it, is even harder. In addition, you'd still have to buy the
"nuts" for the spoke. Given the price, I think having Buchanan's make them
and provide the nuts is the best way by far, for me at least it was. Gene
----------
> From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Rolled Threads
> Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 11:15 AM
>
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Jack,
>
> You beat me to it on the description of rolled threads. I did forget
> to add one important thing though about rolled threads: one thing leads
> to another, as they say, and that leads to wire spoked wheels which
> lead to a much nicer looking Pietenpol!
>
> Our Piet sits on the "improved" balloon tires for now, but I can't help
> but see that in the future I'll be making a set of wire wheels for it.
> Wire wheels...sigh.
>
> Rodger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | Ref: Rolled Threads |
Yeah Rodger,
I'm nowhere near ready for landing gear on mine. I started with the wing
(have it finished now) and am going to build the tail next, then the
fuselage. THEN we'll see about landing gear. My project took a major
setback when I had to put a new engine in my Cessna 140 this summer - sort
of ate up all my "discretionary" funds, so I'm waiting to recover
financially before ordering all the wood to finish the Piet.
I do intend to put wire wheels on my Pietenpol, and I am archiving every
e-mail that I come across with wire wheel information.
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodger & Betty [SMTP:childsway@indian-creek.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 11:16 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Rolled Threads
>
> <childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Jack,
>
> You beat me to it on the description of rolled threads. I did forget
> to add one important thing though about rolled threads: one thing leads
> to another, as they say, and that leads to wire spoked wheels which
> lead to a much nicer looking Pietenpol!
>
> Our Piet sits on the "improved" balloon tires for now, but I can't help
> but see that in the future I'll be making a set of wire wheels for it.
> Wire wheels...sigh.
>
> Rodger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve wrote:
Walt had posted an email about his wire wheels and said we could post to
him for the size spokes and rim. I sent him an email but he hasent
replied. Can someone please nudge him for me?
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | fabric & scissors hint |
Thinking back to my first fabric job. Got out all the stuff you're supposed
to have ....razors, irons, glue, MEK, and my sharpest scissors.
When I started to lay out the big pieces, and double checked to get it
right, got out the special sharpest scissors in the house. What a
supprise. Was using 1.7 oz. fabric, and it either wouldn't cut, or made a
stringy mess. Frustrating as hell.
Couldn't believe the simple solution.
Get a pair of the cheap "Singer" scissors ( about $4.00) at the
supermarket. The ones that hang above food height, with all the gadgets,
along the top of the aisles. Stamped flat steel, with the plastic
handles.
Use them for fabric, and only for fabric, and they will work like a dream.
walt evans
ps when it comes to covering, get the Poly Fibre manual from AS&S (or
whoever) for about $10.00. If you haven't covered before, it's the best
$10.00 you'll spend.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Steve,
Sorry, consider me nudged. Checked my wheels and on the rim is a size "
18x1.60" tire size 3.00x18.
Then I scanned the label on the Harley D. spoke set ( 1 set per wheel, with
a few left over)
and made a sketch of the hub stuff. Hope I didn't leave anything out.
look at,,,,,
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/spokedata.jpg
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/hubdata.jpg
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbehub1.jpg
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel1.jpg
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel2.jpg
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel3.jpg
the white hub is a temp PVC bushing that I used for truing the wheels.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:59 PM
Subject: Walt Evans.
>Piet_Builder - http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm
>
>Steve wrote:
>
>Walt had posted an email about his wire wheels and said we could post to
>him for the size spokes and rim. I sent him an email but he hasent
>replied. Can someone please nudge him for me?
>
>Steve
>
>Steve W GN-1 builder
>IHA #6
>
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>To unsubscribe, write to Piet_Builder-unsubscribe(at)listbot.com
>Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: Walt Evans.
>Steve,
>Sorry, consider me nudged. Checked my wheels and on the rim is a size "
>18x1.60" tire size 3.00x18.
> Then I scanned the label on the Harley D. spoke set ( 1 set per wheel,
with
>a few left over)
>and made a sketch of the hub stuff. Hope I didn't leave anything out.
>look at,,,,,
>http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/spokedata.jpg
>http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/hubdata.jpg
>http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbehub1.jpg
>http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel1.jpg
>http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel2.jpg
>http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel3.jpg
>the white hub is a temp PVC bushing that I used for truing the wheels.
>walt
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
>To: Piet_Builder(at)listbot.com ; fly5k(at)listbot.com
>; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
>Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:59 PM
>Subject: Walt Evans.
>
>
>>Piet_Builder - http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm
>>
>>Steve wrote:
>>
>>Walt had posted an email about his wire wheels and said we could post to
>>him for the size spokes and rim. I sent him an email but he hasent
>>replied. Can someone please nudge him for me?
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>Steve W GN-1 builder
>>IHA #6
>>
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________
>>To unsubscribe, write to Piet_Builder-unsubscribe(at)listbot.com
>>Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Walter can you please give me the part # for the spokes?! Thanks for
replying too!
Steve
writes:
>
>
> Steve,
> Sorry, consider me nudged. Checked my wheels and on the rim is a
> size "
> 18x1.60" tire size 3.00x18.
> Then I scanned the label on the Harley D. spoke set ( 1 set per
> wheel, with
> a few left over)
> and made a sketch of the hub stuff. Hope I didn't leave anything
> out.
> look at,,,,,
> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/spokedata.jpg
> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/hubdata.jpg
> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbehub1.jpg
> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel1.jpg
> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel2.jpg
> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbewheel3.jpg
> the white hub is a temp PVC bushing that I used for truing the
> wheels.
> walt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
> To: Piet_Builder(at)listbot.com ;
> fly5k(at)listbot.com
> ; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:59 PM
> Subject: Walt Evans.
>
>
> >Piet_Builder - http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm
> >
> >Steve wrote:
> >
> >Walt had posted an email about his wire wheels and said we could
> post to
> >him for the size spokes and rim. I sent him an email but he hasent
> >replied. Can someone please nudge him for me?
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >Steve W GN-1 builder
> >IHA #6
> >
> >
> >______________________________________________________________________
> >To unsubscribe, write to Piet_Builder-unsubscribe(at)listbot.com
> >Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
I spent a good 3 months trying to get those ##@!!@ at Buchanan's to even
answer my letters.
After at least 6 e-mails, and one letter, plus one letter to the company, I
just gave up.
I didn't even get an answer.
Started contacting folks on the net who motorcycle,,,no answers from them
either.
Wrote:
Decker Cycles
410 Main St
Canfield, OH 44406
As they have done spoke wheels for planes in the past. 2 letters....no
answer. Enclosed SASE
I have now decided to go with the big air wheel idea using Kitfox type tires
and and atv type wheels.
I know when I'm licked.
Bob
It now looks like no more spoke wheels for me
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need dimensions for J-3 Cub wheel/brakes for use on |
Grega.
A cutaway like that is to me at least a tall order. If I were you, I would
go down to the local airplane mechanic, and see if he has a book which might
have some type of drawing...kind of like the auto shops have.
Bob
>From: "bconoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "Piet List"
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need dimensions for J-3 Cub wheel/brakes for use
>on Grega.
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:51:45 -0500
>
>
>Hello list.
>
>I initially built my main gear (Grega GN-1) and completed them just enough
>to be able to slide the wheels/tires on and be able to move the fuse around
>in my shop. That was about a year ago. Now I want to finish the main
>gear/wheel/brake system. I am using 8 x 4.00 wheels and tires from a J-3
>(I
>think). My problem is I dont really know EXACTLY how the brake backing
>plate and wheels are oriented on the axle. Also I am a bit nervous that
>the
>brake backing plate + the width of the assembly + the wheel width + the
>threaded end of the axle = more axle length than I have left myself.
>Unfortunately I did not leave myself an inch or two extra length like I
>wish
>I had. DRAT!
>
>So I guess what I am needing is a cutaway of the J-3 wheel/brake assembly
>with dimensions . Or pictures??
>
>Does anyone know if this is available? I might upset the local cub owners
>if I start pulling off their landing gear right there on the ramp...
>
>For those familiar with it, I built to the Grega plans.
>
>I would appreciate any help here. Thanks In Advance.
>
>Bert Conoly
>bconoly(at)surfsouth.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | [Please Read] List Fund Raiser Continues; LOC #1 December |
1st!
Greetings Listers!
Don't forget the 1999 List Fund Raiser is still in progress and there is
still plenty of time to make a Contribution and assure yourself a place
on on the first List Of Contributors (LOC)! I will post the first LOC
on December 1st and it will detail everyone that has generously made a
Contribution so far this year!!
It costs a great deal to maintain the Email and Web server systems and
high-speed Internet connection that provide the Email List services
found here. I won't even mention the many, many hours I spend each week
running the Lists, doing backups, handling subscription requests, and
creating new email and web features and services such as the Archive
Search Engine, and Archive Browser... Whoops; I think I just did! :-)
This year's Fund Raiser started out pretty slow and I was starting to
think that no one appreciated me anymore... ;-) But, in the last week
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Your Email List Administrator
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bconoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need dimensions for J-3 Cub wheel/brakes for use on |
Grega.
Good Idea.
I found a guy yesterday who just happens to have his J-3 down for
restoration. I'm going over on the first and take my tape measure.
Thanks, Bert
-----Original Message-----
From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need dimensions for J-3 Cub wheel/brakes for
use on Grega.
>
>A cutaway like that is to me at least a tall order. If I were you, I would
>go down to the local airplane mechanic, and see if he has a book which
might
>have some type of drawing...kind of like the auto shops have.
>
>Bob
>
>
>>From: "bconoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
>>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: "Piet List"
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need dimensions for J-3 Cub wheel/brakes for use
>>on Grega.
>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:51:45 -0500
>>
>>
>>Hello list.
>>
>>I initially built my main gear (Grega GN-1) and completed them just enough
>>to be able to slide the wheels/tires on and be able to move the fuse
around
>>in my shop. That was about a year ago. Now I want to finish the main
>>gear/wheel/brake system. I am using 8 x 4.00 wheels and tires from a J-3
>>(I
>>think). My problem is I dont really know EXACTLY how the brake backing
>>plate and wheels are oriented on the axle. Also I am a bit nervous that
>>the
>>brake backing plate + the width of the assembly + the wheel width + the
>>threaded end of the axle = more axle length than I have left myself.
>>Unfortunately I did not leave myself an inch or two extra length like I
>>wish
>>I had. DRAT!
>>
>>So I guess what I am needing is a cutaway of the J-3 wheel/brake assembly
>>with dimensions . Or pictures??
>>
>>Does anyone know if this is available? I might upset the local cub owners
>>if I start pulling off their landing gear right there on the ramp...
>>
>>For those familiar with it, I built to the Grega plans.
>>
>>I would appreciate any help here. Thanks In Advance.
>>
>>Bert Conoly
>>bconoly(at)surfsouth.com
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
If you still really want spoke wheels, e-mail me off line and I will make
arrangements to get them for you. Their shop is about 5 miles from me and
they re-spoked my Honda 90 hubs / rims, trued and balanced and even polished
them out for $45.00 labor each and $1.00 per spoke X 32.
Warren
oil can wrote:
>
> I spent a good 3 months trying to get those ##@!!@ at Buchanan's to even
> answer my letters.
>
> After at least 6 e-mails, and one letter, plus one letter to the company, I
> just gave up.
>
> I didn't even get an answer.
>
> Started contacting folks on the net who motorcycle,,,no answers from them
> either.
>
> Wrote:
> Decker Cycles
> 410 Main St
> Canfield, OH 44406
>
> As they have done spoke wheels for planes in the past. 2 letters....no
> answer. Enclosed SASE
>
> I have now decided to go with the big air wheel idea using Kitfox type tires
> and and atv type wheels.
>
> I know when I'm licked.
>
> Bob
>
> It now looks like no more spoke wheels for me
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
did you just try calling them? I called, mailed examples of the spokes,
and had the new ones within a week. (Buchanans)
----------
> From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buchanan's Spoke and Rim..... ##@!!!@##$#@!.....
> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 1:11 AM
>
>
> I spent a good 3 months trying to get those ##@!!@ at Buchanan's to even
> answer my letters.
>
> After at least 6 e-mails, and one letter, plus one letter to the company,
I
> just gave up.
>
> I didn't even get an answer.
>
> Started contacting folks on the net who motorcycle,,,no answers from them
> either.
>
> Wrote:
> Decker Cycles
> 410 Main St
> Canfield, OH 44406
>
> As they have done spoke wheels for planes in the past. 2 letters....no
> answer. Enclosed SASE
>
> I have now decided to go with the big air wheel idea using Kitfox type
tires
> and and atv type wheels.
>
> I know when I'm licked.
>
> Bob
>
> It now looks like no more spoke wheels for me
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
thanks leon, for sending the print of the wheel and
hub. I'm not interested in spoked wheels and didn't
want to use regular heavyweight,expensive aero wheels
and asuza wheels are too light. and so the wheels from
douglass seem exactly what I had in mind, their
catalog is coming to me shortly.
del
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
. "Hegar makes some really
neat brake actuators. I haven't decided which way I
will go there yet,
but I like their heel operated brake cyl's. Good Luck
Leon S."
where did you get the hegars?
del
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Del can you please send me the info on the wheel
catalog? 800# or
whatever.
Steve
The catalog should come in a few days, I'll let you
know what they have to offer, or if you want to go
ahead and get it, their phone nu is 760-758-5560. they
did mention when I talked to them, that they are
wholesalers so I don.t know what its going to take to
buy from them.
del
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Re: hegar brakes |
I haven't bought brake cyl's yet, I'm not that far along. Aircraft
Spruce has them. Calif. power systems or Leading Edge Airfoils do also.
They have nice pictures in their catalog. L.S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
food for thought
yesterday I had an opportunity to fly with a fella in
a brand new mooney eagle (88 hours tt) about 200 miles
and back. 250 mph with gps and auto pilot. what a way
to travel!!
now this is the thought for discussion. On this mooney
the entire tail section was hinged with probably about
an inch of movement up and down. this was the trim. no
trim tabs to create another bump in the airstream.
this seems like it would be a piece of cake to install
on the piet. I know you really don't need it very
badly, but still... comments?
del
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Santana" <aircamper(at)hotmail.com> |
Build the airplane the way Mr. Pietenpol designed it and you will have a
good one. Elevator trim is not needed.
Joe Santana 444MH
>From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: piet aircamper
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:51:19 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>food for thought
>yesterday I had an opportunity to fly with a fella in
>a brand new mooney eagle (88 hours tt) about 200 miles
>and back. 250 mph with gps and auto pilot. what a way
>to travel!!
>now this is the thought for discussion. On this mooney
>the entire tail section was hinged with probably about
>an inch of movement up and down. this was the trim. no
>trim tabs to create another bump in the airstream.
>this seems like it would be a piece of cake to install
>on the piet. I know you really don't need it very
>badly, but still... comments?
>del
>
>
>Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com> |
Del, if you need trim, the aircraft is not rigged properly. I've carried
some 200 plus pound people in the front of Piet NX899TC and needed no trim
change. It surprised me too, but it fly's the same except the climb is
slower and the takeoff roll a little longer. Save the weight and
aggravation and forget the trim unless you plan on G.G. changes in flight.
Copinfo(at)home.com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
>
>Build the airplane the way Mr. Pietenpol designed it and you will have a
>good one. Elevator trim is not needed.
>
>Joe Santana 444MH
I agree, trim is not needed.
Mike Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
I don't agree. I see trim as a safety feature. Although it happens rarely,
there is always a possibility of an elevator control failure. Most of
these occur when one of the two cables fail. Figuring out which one is
usually quite easy. Using trim can help you regain control. For example,
if the "up" elevator cable fails, trim the plane for full nose up and then
use the stick, and the still connected down elevator cable, to control the
plane. you won't have quite as much authority, as with a fully functioning
elevator, but a lot more than without the trim.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Ken
On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Tim Cunningham wrote:
>
> Del, if you need trim, the aircraft is not rigged properly. I've carried
> some 200 plus pound people in the front of Piet NX899TC and needed no trim
> change. It surprised me too, but it fly's the same except the climb is
> slower and the takeoff roll a little longer. Save the weight and
> aggravation and forget the trim unless you plan on G.G. changes in flight.
> Copinfo(at)home.com
> Tim Cunningham
> Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John E Fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
I plan to put trim on my Piet.
Back in August after the Brodhead fly-in there was a rather extensive
discussion on this forum about trim. You could consult the archives to
see what was said (if the headers are accurate enough for you to find
the notes). Many of the piets with trim use a short bungee which pulls
on the elevator belcrank one way or the other. By the way, Bernard
Pietenpol was going to add a similar setup to his last piet to keep the
elevator lines from rubbing on the front of the stabilizer when the
plane was parked, but never got around to it (I read that somewhere).
One piet which is usually at Brodhead uses little wings sticking out each
side of the rear fuselage for trim (is that the way Taylorcraft do it?).
John in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
thanks for the input, but the point was missed
altogether. I read all of the previous posts on trim,
so I know how others are doing it. And I know you
don't need it. the point is, what do you think of the
method of doing it that I described. It seems like a
clean easy way of adding trim. A trim tab adds another
bump to the airfoil whereas tilting the entire tail
section leaves cleaner lines. And also it seems easier
to do than building a trim tab. I have an Idea in my
head on how it could be done. If I get some positive
input I will go ahead and lay it out on paper.
By the way Bernie P. put a trim system on "The last
Original" hangered in River Falls Wi. Which is now
owned by Andrew Pietenpol. I've been there and seen
it.
del
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "phil phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com> |
Del, It sounds like you are looking at a screw-jack system like Piper has
on the old cubs. It is relatively simple , but would not work with the
Pietenpol tail arrangement. The hold down system for the Piet. doesn't
appear to lend itself to a floating stabilizer arrangement.
> From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
> To: piet aircamper http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com> |
Del if you're going to do it, I agree with you. The screw jack is simple to
construct and would be perfect for the Piet. The J-3 Cub is a good example.
You need to redesign the tail attach point. I had the same system on a Baby
Great Lakes I had.
Copinfo(at)home.com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural standpoint,
than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge. Think of the stress
on the longerons at the hinge point (not to mention the hinges) . . . think
of the weight added . .. where would you put the tailskid (wheel)? How
would you keep the control cables tight as the tail moved? I do not think
I have ever heard of an elevator cable failure in any type aircraft (unless
shot away in wartime). Flying by trim is not going to save you if such a
thing ever happened. Ever tried it?
----------
> From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
> To: piet aircamper
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim
> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 8:49 PM
>
>
> thanks for the input, but the point was missed
> altogether. I read all of the previous posts on trim,
> so I know how others are doing it. And I know you
> don't need it. the point is, what do you think of the
> method of doing it that I described. It seems like a
> clean easy way of adding trim. A trim tab adds another
> bump to the airfoil whereas tilting the entire tail
> section leaves cleaner lines. And also it seems easier
> to do than building a trim tab. I have an Idea in my
> head on how it could be done. If I get some positive
> input I will go ahead and lay it out on paper.
> By the way Bernie P. put a trim system on "The last
> Original" hangered in River Falls Wi. Which is now
> owned by Andrew Pietenpol. I've been there and seen
> it.
> del
>
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
John...don't know about Taylorcraft but Buhl Aircraft did it on their 1930
Bull Pup !! Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
Del,
I think your further consideration of trim for the Piet is worthy of the
effort. Personally, I will be looking seriously at how to include a clean
and simple method of trimming my ship out when I get to that part of the
building process.
My first idea is for wheel or lever actuated elevator controll arm springs.
But, being cautiously suspect of any modification ideas I get about building
an airplane, it's only a consideration. However, you can bet I'll give this
considerably more time when I get to that part of the building process.
Right now I'm looking at fuel tank options. A forward fuselage mounted tank
would seem to make some kind of trim system necessary regardless of how well
the ship is rigged. Keep us posted.
Michael
Checking the mailbox and UPS trucks for Vi Kapler's plans and wood
Portland, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Gene,
I agree with you that the Mooney style elevator trim, where the whole
empennage moves is impractical for a Piet. It would be real hard to
engineer, and heavy. Using the jackscrew setup would be the way to go, ala
J-3. Again there is some engineering to do, but it would be much simpler.
I also agree with Ken B., that elevator trim is a desirable option to put
on a plane (if you want to). I have definitely heard of elevator cable
breaks, cables jumping off pulleys, (although not a prob on a Piet). I have
by the way, landed a plane using just the trim wheel, and throttle, it's not
only doable, it usually resulted in a very nice, soft squeaker! Del, draw it
up, and try it out!
Like Ken, my 2 cents.
Gary Meadows
14 Ribs and building
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Gene Rambo wrote:
>
> I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural standpoint,
> than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge. Think of the stress
> on the longerons at the hinge point (not to mention the hinges) . . . think
> of the weight added . .. where would you put the tailskid (wheel)? How
> would you keep the control cables tight as the tail moved? I do not think
> I have ever heard of an elevator cable failure in any type aircraft (unless
> shot away in wartime). Flying by trim is not going to save you if such a
> thing ever happened. Ever tried it?
>
Sure, the Cessna 180 is often refered to as a plane you fly with the trim.
The trim is very powerful as it uses a jack screw to change the angle of
incidence of the horizontal stab by about 7 degrees.
If you've never heard of an elevator control failure, you haven't looked
very hard. I've read no less than a dozen reports of in-flight elevator
control failure where the trim was used in conjunction with throttle to
control the plane to a survivable landing. In fact, I seem to remember
reading in FAR Part 23 that the installation of a trim system is required
as a backup to the primary elevator control systems.
The most famous of these was the United Airlines DC-10-10 that crashed in
Sioux City, IA. After the catastrophic destruction of one of the fan
rotors, all of the elevator primary control systems were severed. The
aircraft was controllled to a crash landing utilizing trim and throttle.
Although there were 111 fatalities, 185 survived. It would have been a lot
worse had the trim been unavailable.
Using full trim deflection to work against the remaining good elevator
control cable was a trick told to me by an old Newfoundland bush pilot who
had the "down" elevator cable on his C-180 floatplane fail. The plane had
been in and out of salt water for most of it's life and the cable had
corroded from the inside out. The cable broke after take-off as the pilot
pushed the nose down to build speed (common practice on float equipped
180's). The plane started to nose up into a stall. The pilot realized
what had happened and threw in full nose down trim. Cutting the power with
rising terrain in front and low airspeed really wasn't an option. He flew
an acceptable circuit and had a relatively uneventful landing. The
maintenance guys replaced the cable and nothing more was done.
In Canada, we, as pilots, recieve a quarterly publication called the
"Aviation Safety Letter" which generally describes a number of accidents
and provides a commentary as to what went wrong. THe AME's also get a
similar newsletter (the name escapes me right now) that covers maintenance
related accidents with a similatr commentary. My AME buddy forwards all of
his newsletters to me after he reads them as he knows that I will be
maintaining my plane. These newsletters reveal some shocking maintenance
problems that have also lead to control system failures.
Fortunately, my plane calls for a trim system and one is being installed.
Boy, have I ever rambled on.
Later,
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
That Piet with the seperate trim wings is based at Bentonville, Arkansas
and I've been told it doesn't work very well. I have pictures of the
finished installation.
Incidently, the pre-war Taylorcrafts did have a trim system like this
and as far as I know, it worked quite well. I did help a guy recover
such a Taylorcraft several years ago and he never expressed any problems
with the trim.
John Langston
>
>I plan to put trim on my Piet.
>
>Back in August after the Brodhead fly-in there was a rather extensive
>discussion on this forum about trim. You could consult the archives
>to
>see what was said (if the headers are accurate enough for you to
>find
>the notes). Many of the piets with trim use a short bungee which
>pulls
>on the elevator belcrank one way or the other. By the way, Bernard
>Pietenpol was going to add a similar setup to his last piet to keep
>the
>elevator lines from rubbing on the front of the stabilizer when the
>plane was parked, but never got around to it (I read that somewhere).
>
>One piet which is usually at Brodhead uses little wings sticking out
>each
>side of the rear fuselage for trim (is that the way Taylorcraft do
>it?).
>
>
>John in Peoria
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Del,
The Mooney trim system has the empennage hinged at the top with to
forged aluminum fittings and a geared transmission at the bottom. The
transmission is operated by a torque tube which runs from the trim wheel
all the way back to the tail and the whole thing moves more than an inch.
I can't remember now just how much it moves, but I think it's more like
four or five inches. A consistant problem we had with this is that the
two bolts and a bushing in what we called the "saddle block link" would
wear out and often had to be replaced. The limit was to grab the
elevator a lift; there should be no more than a tenth of an inch play.
As far as installing this on a Pietenpol, it would take a lot of work.
The hinged portion on a Mooney is also bushed and occassionally these
would wear out causing sideways play in the horizontal stabilizer. As a
Mooney is wider than a Piet at the tail, there might be problems in
stabilizer stability due to the hinges being too close together. Also,
the entire tail would have to be redesigned and beefed up because the
entire section that the complete tail, the whole after fuselage under the
empennage moves with the actuator, not just the horizontal stabilizer.
Someone wrote and said that the aft third of the fuselage moves. This
is not true. The part that moves begins with the leading edge of the
stabilizer spar. The idea is the same, but the system of operation is
completely different than what Piper used on his Cub, Vagabond, and Pacer
series.
Another complication is this area is also where the tail wheel attaches.
Weight would certainly be another factor to contend with, although the
Mooney parts aren't particularly heavy. The last time I bought an
actuator (Mooney calls it a trim screw), it cost $600 and there has been
a big price increase since. If this trim screw fails, there is no
control of the tail trim at all, and as it is extremely effective, I
don't know that the elevator could keep maintain control.
There was an incident years ago that a Mooney was repaired at what was
then called "The Mod Center" in the factory. The trim screw was removed
to replace the tail and upon reinstallation, the installing mechanic
missed the hole in the trim screw, installing the bolt through the
attaching brackets only and pinching the trim screw in place. A
successful test flight was taken and the airplane delivered to the owner.
On his flight to San Antonio (sixty miles away) the trim screw came out
and the pilot made a very hard landing on the runway at International.
He broke his back, successfully sued Mooney, and the Manager of the Mod
Center lost his A.I.
A trim system that works would certainly be appreciated in a Piet,
although those who have installed a trim system using bungee cords say
they don't use it for local flights, just for long cross-country flights.
I talked to one guy at Brodhead this summer who had a small spring
attached to his seat with a hardware store turnbuckle to correct for nose
heaviness and this looked great. He had a air-cooled engine up front and
as we are using a Model A and I and my two partners don't weigh the same,
we're going to have tail heaviness problems unless one in particular goes
on a diet! Anyway, we plan on doing using the spring and turnbuckle
somehow; haven't really gotten that far yet.
To put a Mooney type trim on a Piet sounds like an interesting project,
but it would be very complecated and add a lot of weight. The parts
would have to be virtually indestructable and foolproof as a run away
trim is extremely serious. I like the spring and turnbuckle method
because it follows the KISS principle -- Keep It Simple, Stupid.
If you would like to continue with this, I can give you more information
on it. I stall have contacts at Mooney engineering.
John Langston
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet trim ala Mooney |
"Piet-List Engineering Group",
Ref: "I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural
standpoint, than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge..."
Actually, the Mooney system is simplicity in it's self. Two large
plates, one on the fuselage, the other on the flying tail, with a hinge
at the top and the trim screw at the lower portion connecting them. To
look at it all, one would think it to be rather not up to the job,
structurally, BUT, it works rather well. I don't recall ever hearing of
one ever falling off in all the eleven years or so that I worked at
Mooney. I did hear of one man who picked up a brand new Mooney at the
factory and flew it back to the gulf coast somewhere and just around
Beaumont Tx, got sucked up into a thunderstorm. Up up he went in the
clouds, and then down down he came, and when he exited the base of the
clouds he was inverted in a spin so he recovered and landed at the
nearest field and noted that there was extra diheidral in the wings and
some of the rivets were missing. He called the factory and said he had
a problem and described it to them. Not sure how Mooney got the plane
back to Kerrville, but, did hear that the engineering guys said that
due to the extra amount of bend in the wings and the missing rivits
that he must have gone to maximum loading plus some. However, the tail
did stay on, but Bill Wheat, one of the engineers, (keeper of the Mooney
flame), said that the wing is hell-for-stout, but... (pause) not the
tail, he was lucky.
It could be done, it would be heavy, it would be unique. But to
compensate, the wing would have to move backward again... all told, an
engineering triumph! A piece of cake. Sort of a Piet and a half.
Mooney makes it look simple, and I guess that's the way it is with lots
of good engineering, but it could be a nightmare for a Piet.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
writes:
>
>
>food for thought
>yesterday I had an opportunity to fly with a fella in
>a brand new mooney eagle (88 hours tt) about 200 miles
>and back. 250 mph with gps and auto pilot. what a way
>to travel!!
>now this is the thought for discussion. On this mooney
>the entire tail section was hinged with probably about
>an inch of movement up and down. this was the trim. no
>trim tabs to create another bump in the airstream.
>this seems like it would be a piece of cake to install
>on the piet. I know you really don't need it very
>badly, but still... comments?
>del
>
>
Del
Go buy a Mooney.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Gary, I bet that squeaker wasn't in a tailwheel aircraft! Least of all a
nose heavy one like the Piet. (smile)
When you mention the Piper-type jackscrew, remember that the cub, baby
lakes, etc. have the fin and rudder attached to the fuselage independently,
rather than to the horizontal like the Piet. On the Piet, you'd have to
redesign these, as well. If you are really worried about it, the simplest
trim mechanism I can think of would require no mods -- an adjustable bungee
in the system. No drag, no engineering, no problem.
----------
> From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
> Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 11:26 AM
>
>
> Gene,
>
> I agree with you that the Mooney style elevator trim, where the whole
> empennage moves is impractical for a Piet. It would be real hard to
> engineer, and heavy. Using the jackscrew setup would be the way to go,
ala
> J-3. Again there is some engineering to do, but it would be much simpler.
>
> I also agree with Ken B., that elevator trim is a desirable option to
put
> on a plane (if you want to). I have definitely heard of elevator cable
> breaks, cables jumping off pulleys, (although not a prob on a Piet). I
have
> by the way, landed a plane using just the trim wheel, and throttle, it's
not
> only doable, it usually resulted in a very nice, soft squeaker! Del, draw
it
> up, and try it out!
>
> Like Ken, my 2 cents.
> Gary Meadows
> 14 Ribs and building
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Geez, I thought I'd stir some trouble . . . Ken, I didn't say I had never
seen a control failure, I said I had never seen a control cable fail.
Obviously you have, but what do you expect from Canada, those bush pilots
will do anything. Regarding the C-180, when people say you "fly" the
airplane by the trim, I don't bellieve that is intended literally. I have
flown that one and lots of others that can be controlled quite well with
the trim, but not through landing. As for the Souix City DC-10, it was
flown purely by power adjustments, not trim. I do not believe part 23
suggests trim as an emergency backup, but I could be mistaken on that one.
I do not doubt that airplanes have been flown by trim alone in emergency
situations, I have heard of it being done. What I meant was, adding trim
purely as an emergency backup would be for the wrong reasons. Moreover, If
you are on climb out in your Piet and the up elevator cable suddenly
snapped, I doubt if any of us could regain control and land the airplane
solely with the trim.
----------
> From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
> Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 12:15 PM
>
>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Gene Rambo wrote:
>
> >
> > I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural standpoint,
> > than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge. Think of the
stress
> > on the longerons at the hinge point (not to mention the hinges) . . .
think
> > of the weight added . .. where would you put the tailskid (wheel)? How
> > would you keep the control cables tight as the tail moved? I do not
think
> > I have ever heard of an elevator cable failure in any type aircraft
(unless
> > shot away in wartime). Flying by trim is not going to save you if such
a
> > thing ever happened. Ever tried it?
> >
>
> Sure, the Cessna 180 is often refered to as a plane you fly with the
trim.
> The trim is very powerful as it uses a jack screw to change the angle of
> incidence of the horizontal stab by about 7 degrees.
>
> If you've never heard of an elevator control failure, you haven't looked
> very hard. I've read no less than a dozen reports of in-flight elevator
> control failure where the trim was used in conjunction with throttle to
> control the plane to a survivable landing. In fact, I seem to remember
> reading in FAR Part 23 that the installation of a trim system is required
> as a backup to the primary elevator control systems.
>
> The most famous of these was the United Airlines DC-10-10 that crashed in
> Sioux City, IA. After the catastrophic destruction of one of the fan
> rotors, all of the elevator primary control systems were severed. The
> aircraft was controllled to a crash landing utilizing trim and throttle.
> Although there were 111 fatalities, 185 survived. It would have been a
lot
> worse had the trim been unavailable.
>
> Using full trim deflection to work against the remaining good elevator
> control cable was a trick told to me by an old Newfoundland bush pilot
who
> had the "down" elevator cable on his C-180 floatplane fail. The plane had
> been in and out of salt water for most of it's life and the cable had
> corroded from the inside out. The cable broke after take-off as the pilot
> pushed the nose down to build speed (common practice on float equipped
> 180's). The plane started to nose up into a stall. The pilot realized
> what had happened and threw in full nose down trim. Cutting the power
with
> rising terrain in front and low airspeed really wasn't an option. He flew
> an acceptable circuit and had a relatively uneventful landing. The
> maintenance guys replaced the cable and nothing more was done.
>
> In Canada, we, as pilots, recieve a quarterly publication called the
> "Aviation Safety Letter" which generally describes a number of accidents
> and provides a commentary as to what went wrong. THe AME's also get a
> similar newsletter (the name escapes me right now) that covers
maintenance
> related accidents with a similatr commentary. My AME buddy forwards all
of
> his newsletters to me after he reads them as he knows that I will be
> maintaining my plane. These newsletters reveal some shocking maintenance
> problems that have also lead to control system failures.
>
> Fortunately, my plane calls for a trim system and one is being installed.
> Boy, have I ever rambled on.
>
> Later,
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
I wish people would read before criticizing . . . what I said was that the
aft 1/3 of the PIET fuselege would hinge. Given its length, and the width
of the horizontal stab, it would be approximately 1/3. Whatever the
number, it is a lot. The entire aft end of the Mooney does hinge . . the
tail is a separate unit. The jackscrew at the bottom moves no more than
three inches. As he says, hinge is at the top. All of the elevator and
rudder controls run through a VERY complicated set of bellcranks to
maintain the same throw on the controls regardless of the tail's position.
That is one of the major problems with a Mooney-type trim on a Piet.
----------
> From: nle97(at)juno.com
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
> Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 12:42 PM
>
>
> Del,
> The Mooney trim system has the empennage hinged at the top with
to
> forged aluminum fittings and a geared transmission at the bottom. The
> transmission is operated by a torque tube which runs from the trim wheel
> all the way back to the tail and the whole thing moves more than an inch.
> I can't remember now just how much it moves, but I think it's more like
> four or five inches. A consistant problem we had with this is that the
> two bolts and a bushing in what we called the "saddle block link" would
> wear out and often had to be replaced. The limit was to grab the
> elevator a lift; there should be no more than a tenth of an inch play.
> As far as installing this on a Pietenpol, it would take a lot of
work.
> The hinged portion on a Mooney is also bushed and occassionally these
> would wear out causing sideways play in the horizontal stabilizer. As a
> Mooney is wider than a Piet at the tail, there might be problems in
> stabilizer stability due to the hinges being too close together. Also,
> the entire tail would have to be redesigned and beefed up because the
> entire section that the complete tail, the whole after fuselage under the
> empennage moves with the actuator, not just the horizontal stabilizer.
> Someone wrote and said that the aft third of the fuselage moves.
This
> is not true. The part that moves begins with the leading edge of the
> stabilizer spar. The idea is the same, but the system of operation is
> completely different than what Piper used on his Cub, Vagabond, and Pacer
> series.
> Another complication is this area is also where the tail wheel
attaches.
> Weight would certainly be another factor to contend with,
although the
> Mooney parts aren't particularly heavy. The last time I bought an
> actuator (Mooney calls it a trim screw), it cost $600 and there has been
> a big price increase since. If this trim screw fails, there is no
> control of the tail trim at all, and as it is extremely effective, I
> don't know that the elevator could keep maintain control.
> There was an incident years ago that a Mooney was repaired at
what was
> then called "The Mod Center" in the factory. The trim screw was removed
> to replace the tail and upon reinstallation, the installing mechanic
> missed the hole in the trim screw, installing the bolt through the
> attaching brackets only and pinching the trim screw in place. A
> successful test flight was taken and the airplane delivered to the owner.
> On his flight to San Antonio (sixty miles away) the trim screw came out
> and the pilot made a very hard landing on the runway at International.
> He broke his back, successfully sued Mooney, and the Manager of the Mod
> Center lost his A.I.
> A trim system that works would certainly be appreciated in a
Piet,
> although those who have installed a trim system using bungee cords say
> they don't use it for local flights, just for long cross-country flights.
> I talked to one guy at Brodhead this summer who had a small spring
> attached to his seat with a hardware store turnbuckle to correct for nose
> heaviness and this looked great. He had a air-cooled engine up front and
> as we are using a Model A and I and my two partners don't weigh the same,
> we're going to have tail heaviness problems unless one in particular goes
> on a diet! Anyway, we plan on doing using the spring and turnbuckle
> somehow; haven't really gotten that far yet.
> To put a Mooney type trim on a Piet sounds like an interesting
project,
> but it would be very complecated and add a lot of weight. The parts
> would have to be virtually indestructable and foolproof as a run away
> trim is extremely serious. I like the spring and turnbuckle method
> because it follows the KISS principle -- Keep It Simple, Stupid.
> If you would like to continue with this, I can give you more
information
> on it. I stall have contacts at Mooney engineering.
>
> John Langston
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet trim ala Mooney |
I give up . . . my statement was that it would be difficult, structurally,
to put such a system on a Piet. 15 years as a Mooney dealer, ferry pilot,
mechanic, inspector, service rep, etc. taught me something.
----------
> From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet trim ala Mooney
> Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 1:10 PM
>
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> "Piet-List Engineering Group",
>
> Ref: "I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural
> standpoint, than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge..."
>
> Actually, the Mooney system is simplicity in it's self. Two large
> plates, one on the fuselage, the other on the flying tail, with a hinge
> at the top and the trim screw at the lower portion connecting them. To
> look at it all, one would think it to be rather not up to the job,
> structurally, BUT, it works rather well. I don't recall ever hearing of
> one ever falling off in all the eleven years or so that I worked at
> Mooney. I did hear of one man who picked up a brand new Mooney at the
> factory and flew it back to the gulf coast somewhere and just around
> Beaumont Tx, got sucked up into a thunderstorm. Up up he went in the
> clouds, and then down down he came, and when he exited the base of the
> clouds he was inverted in a spin so he recovered and landed at the
> nearest field and noted that there was extra diheidral in the wings and
> some of the rivets were missing. He called the factory and said he had
> a problem and described it to them. Not sure how Mooney got the plane
> back to Kerrville, but, did hear that the engineering guys said that
> due to the extra amount of bend in the wings and the missing rivits
> that he must have gone to maximum loading plus some. However, the tail
> did stay on, but Bill Wheat, one of the engineers, (keeper of the Mooney
> flame), said that the wing is hell-for-stout, but... (pause) not the
> tail, he was lucky.
>
> It could be done, it would be heavy, it would be unique. But to
> compensate, the wing would have to move backward again... all told, an
> engineering triumph! A piece of cake. Sort of a Piet and a half.
>
> Mooney makes it look simple, and I guess that's the way it is with lots
> of good engineering, but it could be a nightmare for a Piet.
>
> Rodger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
seen this in barnstormers if anybodys interested.
1981 PIETENPOL AIRCAMPER FOR SALE!! .. Was a flyer,
needed
cover, has been covered three years ago with Stits
.. It is all red, needs to
have its wing and tail feathers put back on to fly
.. Nice Continental 65
engine, a lot of fun for $5000 OBO .. Can deliver
.. Contact Dan Panozzo,
Owner located Covebay MN USA. Telephone:
320-532-5091. -- Posted 26
November 1999
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wood landing gear |
I am interested in the wood landing gear but the flying and glider manual
isnt really cclear on this ssubject (pixs/words) If yall can help me in
this area I would appreciate it!
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Gene,
Right-o on the non-tailwheel trim wheel landing, although it has mostly
been in a 68 Cessna Cardinal, and it has a pretty nasty reputation in the
landing department, (for training wheel planes, anyway)! You know, this
whole adventure is progressing, and I haven't the first minute in a
tailwheel aircraft as PIC! I think I'll do some J-3 time and get my TW
signoff.
I definitely agree with you on your last statement about the trim thing.
In my book, the simpler the better! I was wondering how the attachment would
be on a Piet for the Cub style trim, it would be too far from the original
for me, and just too much extra engineering, cause I agree with most that
say that Mr. P's way is the right way!
You know, I just thought, (it hurt!) as I was about to wrap this note up,
that you could attach the vertical stab to the area where the turtle deck
comes to a point, put a hinge on the tail post for the horizontal stab, and
a jack-screw arrangement where the main front bolts hold down the horizontal
stab. Or, easier still, just attach the vertical stab to the horizontal stab
and let it move with it, sort of a half Mooney - half J-3 thing.
Not for me, but neat to think about! Joe Krzes and I were trading emails
that for every oz you add to the tail, you need 3 - 4 oz to balance it in
the nose(eyeball rule-of-thumb, I'm sure I'll be challenged on that one). An
extra couple lbs back there, and you'll end up adding 8 - 10 lbs to the
airplane. I don't want anything that isn't absolutely necessary back there!
Gary Meadows
14 Ribs and some tail group wood cut!
(had to break from the steady diet of ribs!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet trim ala Mooney |
Gene,
I certainly wasn't wanting to jump you or anything! I understand you were
talking in generalities, and not specifics on your first post. I earned my
complex endorsement and Commercial ticket in a 1970 M20C. It's a great
airplane, and I love 'em - even the backwards vertical stab, (actually I
agree with Mooney owners that it's the only one that's on correctly)! I'd
own one if I could, but just don't need all that expensive complexity.
Mooney's trim is great - for a Mooney!
Besides, I don't want to make a fellow with the name "Rambo" mad! I'm sure
you're sick of that one, - sorry.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TXTdragger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wood landing gear |
In a message dated 11/26/1999 10:08:20 PM Central Standard Time,
vistin(at)juno.com writes:
<< I am interested in the wood landing gear >>
everything you send Steve, I recieve in triplicate(???) you work for
govt? LOL
John D (#10)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
also, if you attached the fin to the stab and let the whole thing move,
you'd have to hinge the rudder in the middle, or at least give it extra
clearance from the tailpost. I doubt you'll be challenged on your math,
the tail is 3-4 (or 5) times farther from the cg than the engine area.
----------
> From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
> Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 12:18 AM
>
>
> Gene,
> Right-o on the non-tailwheel trim wheel landing, although it has mostly
> been in a 68 Cessna Cardinal, and it has a pretty nasty reputation in the
> landing department, (for training wheel planes, anyway)! You know, this
> whole adventure is progressing, and I haven't the first minute in a
> tailwheel aircraft as PIC! I think I'll do some J-3 time and get my TW
> signoff.
>
> I definitely agree with you on your last statement about the trim
thing.
> In my book, the simpler the better! I was wondering how the attachment
would
> be on a Piet for the Cub style trim, it would be too far from the
original
> for me, and just too much extra engineering, cause I agree with most that
> say that Mr. P's way is the right way!
>
> You know, I just thought, (it hurt!) as I was about to wrap this note
up,
> that you could attach the vertical stab to the area where the turtle deck
> comes to a point, put a hinge on the tail post for the horizontal stab,
and
> a jack-screw arrangement where the main front bolts hold down the
horizontal
> stab. Or, easier still, just attach the vertical stab to the horizontal
stab
> and let it move with it, sort of a half Mooney - half J-3 thing.
>
> Not for me, but neat to think about! Joe Krzes and I were trading
emails
> that for every oz you add to the tail, you need 3 - 4 oz to balance it
in
> the nose(eyeball rule-of-thumb, I'm sure I'll be challenged on that one).
An
> extra couple lbs back there, and you'll end up adding 8 - 10 lbs to the
> airplane. I don't want anything that isn't absolutely necessary back
there!
>
> Gary Meadows
> 14 Ribs and some tail group wood cut!
> (had to break from the steady diet of ribs!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
What with all the talk about modifying Pietenpol Air Camper plans
(remember John Grega!), I thought I'd share a few of my ideas.
1. Since the upward visibility is nil in the original, I moved the wing
to the bottom of the fuselage.
2. Ford and Corvair.....too old-fashioned! I put a nice Continental up
front and made a tight fiberglass cowl for it.
3. I thouhgt that if Mr. Pietenpol was still alive he would appreciate
the durability of aluminum instead of that fragile cloth, so I covered
the whole thing with aluminum.
4. Since it gets cold here and I like to fly in the winter, I installed a
bubble canopy.
5. The whole thing is so clean since I eliminated the flying wires,
struts, radiator, and draggy landing gear (did I mention that I replaced
the bungee-sprung gear for tapered steel legs?) so I added flaps.
6. Finally came the three-axis electric trim, full IFR panel, stereo, and
auto pilot.
I had a lot of fun modifying my airplane and I have no qualms about
calling it an Air Camper because it is still a tandem cockpit
taildragger. Besides, that's the name on the plans that I started with.
Anyway, here's a picture of my Air Camper:
(insert a picture of an RV-6 here)
Gregas, Super Aces, Tuholers, RV-6s, Lancairs, they're all just Pietenpol
Air Campers with a few mods.
(Hmmmm makes me wonder if the Lancair net has questions about adding
struts, tailwheels and open cockpits.)
L. Vaughn Williams
USCG (Ret)
EAA, AMA, ATP, ALPA, LDS, etc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Camera Man <seawolf80(at)thegrid.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Great Piet mods |
Yes, I agree. The aluminum covering would eliminate that nasty rib stitching
but what do you have against retractable landing gear?
Mike no letters after my name Madrid
>
>What with all the talk about modifying Pietenpol Air Camper plans
>(remember John Grega!), I thought I'd share a few of my ideas.
>
>1. Since the upward visibility is nil in the original, I moved the wing
>to the bottom of the fuselage.
>
>2. Ford and Corvair.....too old-fashioned! I put a nice Continental up
>front and made a tight fiberglass cowl for it.
>
>3. I thouhgt that if Mr. Pietenpol was still alive he would appreciate
>the durability of aluminum instead of that fragile cloth, so I covered
>the whole thing with aluminum.
>
>4. Since it gets cold here and I like to fly in the winter, I installed a
>bubble canopy.
>
>5. The whole thing is so clean since I eliminated the flying wires,
>struts, radiator, and draggy landing gear (did I mention that I replaced
>the bungee-sprung gear for tapered steel legs?) so I added flaps.
>
>6. Finally came the three-axis electric trim, full IFR panel, stereo, and
>auto pilot.
>
>I had a lot of fun modifying my airplane and I have no qualms about
>calling it an Air Camper because it is still a tandem cockpit
>taildragger. Besides, that's the name on the plans that I started with.
>
>Anyway, here's a picture of my Air Camper:
>
>
> (insert a picture of an RV-6 here)
>
>
>Gregas, Super Aces, Tuholers, RV-6s, Lancairs, they're all just Pietenpol
>Air Campers with a few mods.
>
>(Hmmmm makes me wonder if the Lancair net has questions about adding
>struts, tailwheels and open cockpits.)
>
>L. Vaughn Williams
>USCG (Ret)
>EAA, AMA, ATP, ALPA, LDS, etc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
All the talk of trim, and maybe this has been discussed before, but a
friend of mine has a Phantom U/L
and their trim is a piece of alum. ( approx from memory) 4"x12" hinged at
the rear of one side horz. stab. Then an arm up activated by a flex cable
like a lawnmower throttle) with a detent, to stay put, in the cockpit. Just
a matter of slight adjustment with your wrist and fingers to take the weight
off the stick. Whole thing can't weigh 6 oz. aft.
Or for looks on a Piet, before you cut longerons, fashion this same sized
section out of the horz stab, that would hinge, with a cable on the
underside for looks. Shouldn't take much to "design" . If someone walked
by at a flyin, they would have to look hard to see it. Even so it would
make for great discussion.
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
These are my thoughts on trim design, I have not seen
a j3 yet but this is what I envision. the vert stab is
connected to the horizontal stabilizer, and then at
the front of the hor stab where it meets the back of
the turtledeck is where you would mount a low
profile,precision hinge (the fuselage is widest here).
and then at the furthest back pt of the fuselage is
where you would mount the jackscrew. there would be 1
inch of clearance by tapering the fuselage down from
the front hinge pt back. giving it about two inches of
travel up and down. The bottom hinge of the rudder
would have to mounted differently. Is the jack screw
on a cub operated by a tachometer type cable with a
crank? the rudder horns wouldn't move much when you
trim, maybe a spring loaded connection where the
cables attach would be enough(using the type where the
cable go's thru the spring). the elevator horns would
just reposition the stick when you trim, maybe some
springs at that pt also. remember that I write this so
that you can give it some constructive thought. Not so
that you just blow it apart and say "build it by the
plans" what is life without interesting thoughts?
thanks
del
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Gene,
Duh, that's what I get for thinking that late at night! Sure sounded good
at the time, now you start getting into those little details like rudders!
Like we've said, best to leave well-designed alone!
You know, I was also wondering, has anyone ever tried pysically connecting
the two elevator halves together like on an R/C plane? On those we always
had those rods with the two 90 bends to make it to where we only needed one
control horn. You'd need to notch the lower rudder or something, just a
thought. I know just more weight!
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Pietenpol Ramblings |
Del,
If you still have it, see the reply that Gene Rambo made to one of my
notes from last night. He brought up the fact that you have to also worry
about the rudder clearing the tailpost, when you start pivoting the
horizontal stabilizer.
Walt - your idea for a trim tab sounds very interesting, I'm looking forward
to see if you include it or not.
;-) Now Del (and Walt), y'all better be careful about having original ideas
about building this thing;-). As I am to understand, they are planned
completely perfectly, with absolutely nothing left out or anything left to
chance. The plans are 100% accurate and complete, and no discussion is
necessary about any of these "improvements". Besides, since Bernhard NEVER
did any experimenting with this design, you should feel compelled to NOT
personalize your project in any way. All Pietenpols are built EXACTLY alike,
with no variations! Right? ;-)
I hope no one used, or are planning to use, any of the synthetic
coverings, or modern finishing systems on their Piet, and best to not use
any of the more modern alloys of steel or aluminum either. Just wouldn't be
right - wouldn't be a "Piet". You'd better go out and find the old alloys
and bedsheets that were on the "real" Piets! Better not use that nasty T-88,
or any of the other modern glues either. Better use casein glue, that way
it'll be a "Real Piet". I wonder if using modern lubricants and fuels
invalidates it's "Pietness"?
Is it possible, that if you built a "Piet" from a composite of all the
different plans, would it be a "Real-Piet" or maybe a "Franken-Piet"? Is the
long or the short fuselage the "real" Piet? One-piece or three? Where is the
type certificate that describes what a "Real Piet" is supposed to consist
of? I want to see it, study it, adhere with religious zeal to it, so that I
won't go astray and build some Piet-like flying device, which isn't a "Real"
Piet, but some red-headed stepchild of an airplane!
Seriously, Del and Walt, if you enjoy tinkering, having actual ideas, then
trying to work them out, then I think by all means do it! I think it's
great! I think it's great that you're beating the bushes, asking for
opinions, or ideas. I have some ideas that I'm gonna build into mine, but as
I keep looking over the plans while I build, I keep coming back to the fact
that for the most part, I'll end up sticking with the original plans.
As far as it being a "Real Piet", WHO CARES?! Make it a Piet with YOUR
ideas incorporated. Then call it a Piet anyway, you own the plans, and you
can call it what you like.
I'll be here building my own version of the Pietenpol, and since I'm not a
purist, but a pragmatist, you can bet I'm gonna call mine a Pietenpol, and I
look forward to seeing both of your planes someday to see how your ideas
worked out and compare notes! Good luck and keep up the good work!
Gary Meadows
Building ribs and cutting tail wood
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bradley & Lorraine James <dogladdy(at)mindspring.com> |
My GN-1 has elevator trim. A small tab on the left elevator.
It is operated by a {aircraft grade} push-pull cable and a lever in the
rear cockpit. I probably would not need it if my fuel tank wasn't on the
fire wall.
I also notice a slight CG. change with a front seat passenger.
This trim system added about 3 lbs to the plane.
I seldom move the tab in normal flight but it's nice to have.
My 2 cents worth: Brad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | robin goodfellow <pietenpolsrule(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | important!! ******READ THIS********XMAS VIRUS COMING!!! |
In a message dated 11/21/99 12:02:22 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
FrIckluv3
writes:
<<
PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE YOU HAVE AN E-MAIL ADDRESS
# 1
Warning on December 25, 1999, you may receive an
email called, Lump of
Coal...do not open it, it contains a deadly virus...it
will erase
your windows along with many other program files.
Pass this on as
soon as
you can to get the WORD out!!! This is not a
hoax....this was
reported on theCBS morning news August 20,1999.
Watch out for this
one. >>
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
I am planning on using "Weldwood Recorcenal glue" to build my GN-1. Now
is this a good glue for this or not!!
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
I have been told (but I do not know for a fact) that if you draw the
fittings exactly per the plans and cut them out, that they do not fit . .
the angles are wrong, I believe. I think you have to make the wooden gear
legs and draw your steel fittings onto the legs and make them that way.
----------
> From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Wooden landing gear
> Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 6:51 PM
>
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Steve,
>
> I have been puzzled by what it is that doesn't seem clear to you about
> the wooden landing gear in the old FGM. So I pulled out my copy, opened
> it to page 17 and poured over the thing quite literally with a 10X
> eyeloupe.
>
> The things that caught my eye that I may do differently is:
> 1) Use douglas fir for the upper vee parts instead of spruce,
> 2) Instead of putting the steel strap on the inside of the
> fuselage, (the one that ties together the left and right lift strut
> fittings),
> put it on the outside of the fuselage as per sheet 3 of the
> Improved Aircamper drawings.
> 3) Make the strap 2" wide per the improved drawing instead of 1/2"
> as the FGM says.
> 4) Make the metal fittings from 4130-N.
>
> I would draw out the landing gear and fittings on construction paper to
> full scale and cut the pieces out, to check the dimensions first.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Rodger
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
Hi Steve,
I am using weldwood resorcinol almost exclusively for my Pietenpol. It is
(in my humble opinion) the very best glue for wood aircraft structures. It
is the only glue I know of that meets Mil-A-46051 and Mil-A-22397. It is
absolutley waterproof, and can withstand immersion in boiling water (no
epoxy can withstand that, in case you were ever thinking of boiling your
airplane). It is approved by the FAA for aircraft woodwork. Usually when a
new glue is tested, resorcinol is the standard which it is tested against.
It does have characteristics which need to be considered. Your shop
temperature should be over 70 deg. F for the glue to bond properly. It has
almost no gap filling capabilities, so all joints must be tight. It must be
clamped under pressure to make a good bond, and nails should be spaced no
more than 3/4" apart to maintain the pressure. Plywood should be "scuffed"
with sandpaper to help the glue bond to the surface.
I used T-88 for all joints where I didn't get a good fit of all the pieces.
Otherwise I used resorcinol. Airplanes have been built with it since the
late 1930's, and it works well.
Good Luck,
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vistin(at)juno.com [SMTP:vistin(at)juno.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 7:45 AM
> To: fly5k(at)listbot.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weldwood recorcenal glue.
>
>
> I am planning on using "Weldwood Recorcenal glue" to build my GN-1. Now
> is this a good glue for this or not!!
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> IHA #6
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
Gene is correct.
First, decide where your axel will be located. With the long fuselage
and an A-65 I put mine at 19" aft of the firewall. A jig is
useful here.
Second, build the wooden vee's.
THEN build the metal fittings.
Greg Cardinal
>>> "Gene Rambo" 12/01 7:15 AM >>>
I have been told (but I do not know for a fact) that if you draw the
fittings exactly per the plans and cut them out, that they do not fit
. .
the angles are wrong, I believe. I think you have to make the wooden
gear
legs and draw your steel fittings onto the legs and make them that
way.
----------
> From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Wooden landing gear
> Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 6:51 PM
>
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Steve,
>
> I have been puzzled by what it is that doesn't seem clear to you
about
> the wooden landing gear in the old FGM. So I pulled out my copy,
opened
> it to page 17 and poured over the thing quite literally with a 10X
> eyeloupe.
>
> The things that caught my eye that I may do differently is:
> 1) Use douglas fir for the upper vee parts instead of spruce,
> 2) Instead of putting the steel strap on the inside of the
> fuselage, (the one that ties together the left and right lift
strut
> fittings),
> put it on the outside of the fuselage as per sheet 3 of the
> Improved Aircamper drawings.
> 3) Make the strap 2" wide per the improved drawing instead of
1/2"
> as the FGM says.
> 4) Make the metal fittings from 4130-N.
>
> I would draw out the landing gear and fittings on construction
paper to
> full scale and cut the pieces out, to check the dimensions first.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Rodger
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams) |
| Subject: | Re: Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
Resorcinal Glue... Not! Gave up o it 35 years ago.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
Steve, Weldwood is a great glue and it is certified. It's what I use and
it's simple to mix. Just add warm water. Nothing else. Glue two piece of
wood together and try to split them apart in a few days. You'll be a
believer.
Copinfo(at)home.com
Tim Cunningham
Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510
----- Original Message -----
From: <vistin(at)juno.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weldwood recorcenal glue.
>
> I am planning on using "Weldwood Recorcenal glue" to build my GN-1. Now
> is this a good glue for this or not!!
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> IHA #6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Cunningham" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Gary, when I started glueing ribs I didn't wear gloves thinking that I could
be very careful not to get it on me and if I did I probably wouldn't have
any problem. WRONG! Of course I got it on me and
luckily my only reaction was a very pronunced itching and a light redness of
the skin. This was enough
to send me to the store for gloves before glueing rib # 2! now I don't even
pick up the bottles without
gloves.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 3:47 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Handling T88 Epoxy
>
>I've been using T88 with reckless abandon building up ribs the last couple
>of weeks, and Joe Krzes posed a question to me, which I'll pose to the
>group.
>
> *** Yes I could read the directions, but I don't have them with me right
>now, and, if there's a safety thing to consider, then a reminder would be
>good for everyone. ***
>
> I glossed over the use of T88 when I got it in and haven't looked it over
>since, once I found that it cleans-up with vinegar, I sorta dismissed any
>long-term health implications (dumb!).
>
> Is it possible to develop any sort of allergic reaction if a person is
>exposed to it on a long-term basis. By exposed, I mean, getting glue on my
>hands/arms at every building session. I'll wear gloves, but they really
make
>it harder to work with small pieces and the like. Yes I'm probably dumb for
>not doing that already, but I just can't help getting excited and
forgetting
>things like that.
>
> Any words of advice from anyone?
>
>Gary Meadows
>15 ribs and counting.....
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
Hi Steve,
Recorcenal is an excellent glue for this application. It has a longer
usable pot life than the T88, which can be a benefit. It doesn't have
any gap filling properties, so your cut and fit must be perfect, and you
must provide clamping pressure during the cure. Scuff up your plywood
slightly with 80 grit or so sandpaper, but just the opposite for your
grained wood...sanded surfaces must be scraped slightly to unfilled pores.
For best results, follow the requirements for temperature, proportions and
mix well.
From some antique repair shops, it does look like recorcenal becomes
rather brittle and crumbs after 50 years or so....{;~)
W-----
vistin(at)juno.com wrote:
>
> I am planning on using "Weldwood Recorcenal glue" to build my GN-1. Now
> is this a good glue for this or not!!
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> IHA #6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
The problem with most of the metal fittings is, that while they will work
as drawn, you just plain have a hell of a time with actually installing them;
because the drawings don't really allow enough room for the bolt heads and
nuts, plus your socket or open end wrench, plus your fingers.
I have been using cheap poster board for patterns, just to check
EVERYTHING for dimension and fit. Much less frustrating than having to remake
a piece. It doesn't really take a lot of extra material, but it sure is a lot
easier with just a little bit more room to work.
W-----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
Gene Rambo wrote: have been told if you draw wittings exactly per drawings
and cut them out they will not fit..angles are wrong
I got my wood gear drawings from Don Pietenpol. I believe they're the same as
those in the FGM (but have not compared). Had them laser cut per plans and
they did not fit. Holes would not line up after bending to shape. I then made
gear legs from scrap pine, put poster board on both sides without regard to
proper shape, drilled through to achieve correct alignment, then drew in
shape of outer edges with proper edge clearance. Appearance is identical to
those in drawing. Then made gear legs of spruce and everything fit as it
should .Hope this helps. Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Mike,
I'm on rib #16 now, and the only problem I've had, is areas that I miss
when I wash my hands, I end up pulling out hairs getting the stuff off!!
That alone is worth wearing the gloves. Invariably, I'll lean over and put
an arm in the stuff, really dumb stuff like that. But it's off to the store
today to get my gloves! I've got a fan I'll set to blow across the area to
provide fresh air. I think I'll get some dust masks for sanding, and sawing,
that seems to be more of an irritant than anything else so far! Well, that,
and this work thing that keeps getting in the way of my building!
Thanks much,
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
I tatally agree with Tim, Jack and Warren re: Weldwood Resorcinal. I have
used it on three previous total constructions and several restorations. As
they have pointed out it is critical as to temperature, mixing and clamping
pressure. With all due respect to those who react to the contrary, poor
results in other projects I have personally observed have invariably been due
to the failure to follow one or more of the critical ares. And, yes, I also
use T-88 and think it is great for certain jobs and when you must work with
less than ideal temperatures. Don Hicks .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
I don't need my Piet to last over 50 years. Anyway, 50 years ago it was
not the same glue as what we are buying now. God knows what that stuff
was. Modern weldwood will be around a long time!
----------
> From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weldwood recorcenal glue.
> Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:09 AM
>
>
> Hi Steve,
> Recorcenal is an excellent glue for this application. It has a
longer
> usable pot life than the T88, which can be a benefit. It doesn't have
> any gap filling properties, so your cut and fit must be perfect, and you
> must provide clamping pressure during the cure. Scuff up your plywood
> slightly with 80 grit or so sandpaper, but just the opposite for your
> grained wood...sanded surfaces must be scraped slightly to unfilled
pores.
> For best results, follow the requirements for temperature, proportions
and
> mix well.
> From some antique repair shops, it does look like recorcenal becomes
> rather brittle and crumbs after 50 years or so....{;~)
> W-----
>
> vistin(at)juno.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I am planning on using "Weldwood Recorcenal glue" to build my GN-1. Now
> > is this a good glue for this or not!!
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > Steve W GN-1 builder
> > IHA #6
> >
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TomTravis(at)aol.com |
The United DC-10 at Sioux City had no elevator trim available. The approach
speed was the speed to which the airplane was trimmed in cruise prior to the
hydraulic system failure.
To compare a DC-10 and a Pietenpol is a quantum leap.
Tom Travis
(former DC-10 Fleet
Manager and Piet builder)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
Gene:
You're right. Its not unusual to be off a little on a fitting or a
dimension. I think when we use common hand tools, we all run the risk of
introducing some errors into construction. After all , if we used precision
tooling along with CAD along with perfect equipment and materials, we would
be right on the money. But - lets remember- Mr. P probably had less
sophisticated drills, saws, etc than we do.
My rule is.. build the big parts, then build the fittings to make the big
parts all come together. (Bert's grinning right now)
I've found- and I'm no expert- that if I follow directions and use good
common horse-sense , I'll build a pretty decent part .....
THE SECOND TIME :)
Cheers, Bert (who's pretty much built two airplanes now)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
Nice idea Don!
Hows that project coming?
Bert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 1999 List of Contributors #1 and a Special Thank You Message!! |
Dear Listers,
I would like to personally thank each and everyone that has contributed
this year to 1999 List Fund Raiser! As you can see from the list of
names below, there were many, many generous people from the Lists this
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or
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Finally, thank you all so much for your support this year both in terms
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http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
----------
> From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Wooden landing gear
> Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:52 AM
>
>
> With the long fuselage and an A-65 I put mine at 19" aft of the firewall.
Greg, how'd you arrive at 19"??
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Wooden landing gear |
Greg, how'd you arrive at 19"??
A little eyeball engineering. Variables that were considered
include:
1. FGM plans and 1934 plans show different locations. Several people
said "Follow the plans". While this is generally good advice my
response was "Which plans?"
2. Pazmany says "In the landing attitude, the gear should be ahead of
the CG by 8-14 degrees" (I'll have to verify the # of deg.)
Also, this early in the project the CG is unknown so I had to guess.
3. I'm not using brakes so I am not too concerned about nosing over.
4. The first set of gear legs were built placing the axel 17" aft of
the firewall. It just didn't look right. I know that is subjective but
I'm a firm believer that if something "doesn't look right" then it
probably isn't.
5. I feel confident that this gear location will give good taxi and
landing qualities.
Greg Cardinal
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Cunningham" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Gary it's the underside of the forearms that really got me!! Kind of tender
there in the first place!
As a large scale modeler for many years I have handled other epoxies and
finishing resins with no
problems so the T-88 itching really surprised me! All 40 ribs for my Hatz
are long since done. Working
on the wing tip bows recently.. now that's messy!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Handling T88 Epoxy
>
>Mike,
> I'm on rib #16 now, and the only problem I've had, is areas that I miss
>when I wash my hands, I end up pulling out hairs getting the stuff off!!
>That alone is worth wearing the gloves. Invariably, I'll lean over and put
>an arm in the stuff, really dumb stuff like that. But it's off to the store
>today to get my gloves! I've got a fan I'll set to blow across the area to
>provide fresh air. I think I'll get some dust masks for sanding, and
sawing,
>that seems to be more of an irritant than anything else so far! Well, that,
>and this work thing that keeps getting in the way of my building!
>
>Thanks much,
>Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Mike,
That's exactly the part of the arms that I get, too, except mine is dried
T88 that I missed in the cleanup - ouch! I'm mostly arm-hairless there
now;-)! I was like you alhough I never did the really big scale stuff, I had
built dozens of R/C planes, and never had any epoxy problems at all. Now,
the CA stuff used to just kill my sinuses.
Every time I'd start a new model, and start using the Not Stuff, I'd get a
cold/sinus problem.
I still haven't gotten gloves yet, I'm afraid I deleted the message where
someone recommended a particular material. Was it Latex that was the no-no
and Vinyl was preferred for T88?
One last Piet-specific question. Where the rear T beam on the vertical
stabilizer meets the baseplate T, the plans show a 1/8" triangular gussett,
but it sure seems as though 3/16" would fill that T in nicely and make for a
little better flush finish. Am I overworking this? Just go with 1/8"? The
old plans called for 3/16" the newer ones 1/8" Anyone?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Cunningham" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Someone said that it is possible to develop an allergy to latex. I have
never heard of this before.
I wonder why it is not common knowledge among medical professionals (my
girlfriend is a doc.) Also it was mentioned that you should stay away from
the gloves with powder in them for the same reason.
The latex gloves sure are the easiest to work in.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Handling T88 Epoxy
>
>Mike,
> That's exactly the part of the arms that I get, too, except mine is dried
>T88 that I missed in the cleanup - ouch! I'm mostly arm-hairless there
>now;-)! I was like you alhough I never did the really big scale stuff, I
had
>built dozens of R/C planes, and never had any epoxy problems at all. Now,
>the CA stuff used to just kill my sinuses.
>Every time I'd start a new model, and start using the Not Stuff, I'd get a
>cold/sinus problem.
>
> I still haven't gotten gloves yet, I'm afraid I deleted the message where
>someone recommended a particular material. Was it Latex that was the no-no
>and Vinyl was preferred for T88?
>
> One last Piet-specific question. Where the rear T beam on the vertical
>stabilizer meets the baseplate T, the plans show a 1/8" triangular gussett,
>but it sure seems as though 3/16" would fill that T in nicely and make for
a
>little better flush finish. Am I overworking this? Just go with 1/8"? The
>old plans called for 3/16" the newer ones 1/8" Anyone?
>
>Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Cunningham" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
| Subject: | Aircamper plans to trade |
I have a set of Pietenpol Aircamper plans I would like to trade for
something else. I am
particularly interested in plans for the Rose Parakeet, Little Toot, and
Emeraude.
Please email direct.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Handling T88 Epoxy
>
>Mike,
> That's exactly the part of the arms that I get, too, except mine is dried
>T88 that I missed in the cleanup - ouch! I'm mostly arm-hairless there
>now;-)! I was like you alhough I never did the really big scale stuff, I
had
>built dozens of R/C planes, and never had any epoxy problems at all. Now,
>the CA stuff used to just kill my sinuses.
>Every time I'd start a new model, and start using the Not Stuff, I'd get a
>cold/sinus problem.
>
> I still haven't gotten gloves yet, I'm afraid I deleted the message where
>someone recommended a particular material. Was it Latex that was the no-no
>and Vinyl was preferred for T88?
>
> One last Piet-specific question. Where the rear T beam on the vertical
>stabilizer meets the baseplate T, the plans show a 1/8" triangular gussett,
>but it sure seems as though 3/16" would fill that T in nicely and make for
a
>little better flush finish. Am I overworking this? Just go with 1/8"? The
>old plans called for 3/16" the newer ones 1/8" Anyone?
>
>Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12/01/99 |
In a message dated 12/02/1999 1:53:32 AM Central Standard Time,
pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< __________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
The United DC-10 at Sioux City had no elevator trim available. The approach
speed was the speed to which the airplane was trimmed in cruise prior to the
hydraulic system failure.
To compare a DC-10 and a Pietenpol is a quantum leap.
Tom Travis
(former DC-10 Fleet
Manager and Piet builder)
>>
Also, remember that the DC10 has a HIGH mounted number two engine, as has the
L1011. As pilots of airplanes with pylon mounted engines (Lake Amphibians,
even SeaBees ) will attest, the power lever (throttle) is a very powerful and
sensitive trim instrument. At least one pilot, an L1011 Captain with frozen
elevators just after liftoff, saved his butt [and a lot of others] with his
knowledge of this phenomenon by uitilizing his seaplane skills.
Given my 'druthers, I'll take the Piet any day, no question.
Ed Woerle (a current DC10 baby-sitter, former L1011 mech and all-around
airport bum)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams) |
It IS common knowledge in the medcal field that latex can be a problem
for some people. All hospitals and clinics have had to change to
nonlatex products. There were a lot of medical professionals that had
to change their life plans and find another line of work before this was
effected.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | Handling T88 Epoxy |
Both hospitals here in Provo have banned latex ballons for patients because
of allergies. I'm really surprised they havn't heard of it before.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike
Cunningham
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Handling T88 Epoxy
Someone said that it is possible to develop an allergy to latex. I have
never heard of this before.
I wonder why it is not common knowledge among medical professionals (my
girlfriend is a doc.) Also it was mentioned that you should stay away from
the gloves with powder in them for the same reason.
The latex gloves sure are the easiest to work in.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Handling T88 Epoxy
>
>Mike,
> That's exactly the part of the arms that I get, too, except mine is dried
>T88 that I missed in the cleanup - ouch! I'm mostly arm-hairless there
>now;-)! I was like you alhough I never did the really big scale stuff, I
had
>built dozens of R/C planes, and never had any epoxy problems at all. Now,
>the CA stuff used to just kill my sinuses.
>Every time I'd start a new model, and start using the Not Stuff, I'd get a
>cold/sinus problem.
>
> I still haven't gotten gloves yet, I'm afraid I deleted the message where
>someone recommended a particular material. Was it Latex that was the no-no
>and Vinyl was preferred for T88?
>
> One last Piet-specific question. Where the rear T beam on the vertical
>stabilizer meets the baseplate T, the plans show a 1/8" triangular gussett,
>but it sure seems as though 3/16" would fill that T in nicely and make for
a
>little better flush finish. Am I overworking this? Just go with 1/8"? The
>old plans called for 3/16" the newer ones 1/8" Anyone?
>
>Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Mike Cunningham wrote:
>
> Someone said that it is possible to develop an allergy to latex. I have
> never heard of this before.
> I wonder why it is not common knowledge among medical professionals (my
> girlfriend is a doc.) Also it was mentioned that you should stay away from
> the gloves with powder in them for the same reason.
> The latex gloves sure are the easiest to work in.
Actually, this is becoming quite well known in the medical profession. I
first heard it from my sister-in-law who's a nurse. there was also a TV
news magazine report on it a year or so ago. Also, one of our club members
developed an allergy to latex while building his Vision. His hands broke
out in a rash and his doctor confirmed his allergy to latex. Obviously,
most people are not allergic, but it is certainly something to be aware of
especially if you are prone to allergies. I only recently developed an
allergy to cats so I've decided to go the safe route with the N-Dex,
non-latex gloves. They are just as cheap, durable and stretchy as latex.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Latex Gloves: |
Greetings:
Latex allergy is not uncommon but should not be as great a problem to us
homebuilders as the hypersensativity attributable to epoxies. Decreasing the
contact of the epoxy with the skin is the key. Technique and gloves.
Most gloves used in surgery are latex. When a doctor, nurse, tech or the
patient has a latex allergy, an alternative type of glove is used. In terms
of their performance and comfort, I prefer latex but that is OK, lacking the
allergy. I have never seen a surgeon quit because of latex allergy. Perhaps
it happens but in ten years of teaching at a medical school, I never saw it.
When we have a latex allergic patient, I have to wear the non-latex gloves
and I really don't like their characteristics.
I buy my latex gloves in a big box at the home store and they seem to work
just fine in the shop.
Joseph Matthews (MD)
Hatz 734
Columbus, GA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Handling T-88 Epoxy |
Mike,
T'was I who mentioned about latex allergies and powder reactions. I now
work for the V.A. Hospital in Kerrville, Tx and over the last few years
have seen a few staff members develope a latex allergy. That goes
along with the fact that since it was a job related injury and the
gov'mint has to pay lost time and medical bills that they have done away
with the latex gloves and now use nitrile and vinyl gloves instead.
The powder seems to be a mechanical irritant and the longer you leave
it on the more chance it has to abrade the skin. It's too easy to just
take off the gloves off and do something else and the powder starts to
work like miniture sand. It's happened to me and so I made sure I washed
the powder off, and no further problems. Now the gloves being supplied
come without powder and are a bit more trouble to put on if the hands
have any moisture (sweat) on them.
True the latex gloves are the easiest to work in and give the best
"feel" of the gloves mentioned. So just choose, and if using latex
gloves, watch out for a rash, particularly starting on the wrists and
back of the hands. Oh, and with ANY gloves you use you will notice that
when you put them on, then and only then, will your nose itch and need
to be scratched or something needs to be wiped out of your eyes. Careful
around the eyes with latex, they are more sensitive than the hands and
for sure will get irritated fast.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Health Risk??? Absolutely! It's an epoxy and the effects are cumulative. You
won't really notice anything right away, maybe a slight headache, but in
time you will develop a sensitivity. The result of which may manifest itself
as a rash, and not just in coming into contact with it, it would be enough
just to smell it.
Dom.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
Actually, while I do not doubt such thing is possible, I think the whole
latex glove-allergy thing came about after an E.R. episode where a med
student went into shock from an allergy to his gloves.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Handling T88 Epoxy |
I am alergic to these latex gloves. They have blisterd my hands and arms
badly.
I use vinal ONLY!
>
> Actually, while I do not doubt such thing is possible, I think the
> whole
> latex glove-allergy thing came about after an E.R. episode where a
> med
> student went into shock from an allergy to his gloves.
>
>
>
>
>
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Contribution Auction |
Dear Listers,
Steven DiNieri has generously offered to donate a CoolStart RS 700-II to
support the Lists this year. As he has discribed below, this unit
retails for $299. I have put a brochure for the product up on the web
server and you can have a look at it here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/rsflyer.jpg
"lm4(at)juno.com" has already opened the bidding at $50 for this handy
device. If you would like bid on this unit, please email your bid to
the following email address:
bids(at)matronics.com
I will give it about a week for the bids to all come in and I will
inform the winning bidder on or about 12/9.
Thanks to Steven DiNieri for offering this unit!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
===========================================================================
--> RV-List message posted by: lm4(at)juno.com
I'll start the bidding at $50.00.
lm4(at)juno.com
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri"
>
> I know it's getting late in the official fund raiser and I was
>thinking of a creative way to contribute.
>...christmas gift for the misses. It normally retails for 299.00. I will
>include (to the winning bidder) wiring color codes for easy install
>in yourspecific vehicle and help on the phone if need be.
>Steve DiNieri
>Capsteve(at)wzrd.com
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
"Re: Contribution Auction" (Dec 2, 8:42pm)
tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Bids for Equipment Donated by Archie... |
Dear Listers,
Archie (archie97(at)earthlink.net) has generously donated a number of
interesting items to the Support the List cause this year. Each of
them are described below. If you have additional questions, please
email Archie directly at:
archie97(at)earthlink.net
If there is an item that you wish to bid on, please send your BID along
with the DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM you are bidding on to the following
email address:
bids(at)matronics.com
I will give it about a week for the bids to all come in and then I will
inform the winning bidder(s) on or about 12/9.
Here is the description of the items as provided by Archie:
======================================================================
- Upon receipt of donation amount, items will be shipped.
- No reasonable offer refused!
- Unreasonable ones considered!
NEW:
* Heated Pitot Tube, 24v. "L" shaped.
* Aero Instruments #5814-2
* Flap Motor w/ adjustable stops. 24v.
* Comm.Aircraft Prods. #D145-00-35-7
USED:
* Narco Transponder AT5-A
* Astronautics amplifier servo 53-005-214 mod#P1SA
* Narco altitude reporter. to 25k' Model# AR500
* King KS-505 power supply modulator
* RCA AVQ55 Weather radar antenna MI 591000
======================================================================
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Cunningham" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling T-88 Epoxy |
Yep Rodger, girfriend says she is well aware of the problem after all. My
original comment was a little
offhand, thinking I would already have heard of this since she talks
non-stop about her work :-) !!
I will continue to use latex, the present box of which is powdered, as I am
not prone to allergies
and won't be wearing them a whole lot more.
Good info.....
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Handling T-88 Epoxy
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
>Mike,
>
>T'was I who mentioned about latex allergies and powder reactions. I now
>work for the V.A. Hospital in Kerrville, Tx and over the last few years
>have seen a few staff members develope a latex allergy. That goes
>along with the fact that since it was a job related injury and the
>gov'mint has to pay lost time and medical bills that they have done away
>with the latex gloves and now use nitrile and vinyl gloves instead.
>
>The powder seems to be a mechanical irritant and the longer you leave
>it on the more chance it has to abrade the skin. It's too easy to just
>take off the gloves off and do something else and the powder starts to
>work like miniture sand. It's happened to me and so I made sure I washed
>the powder off, and no further problems. Now the gloves being supplied
>come without powder and are a bit more trouble to put on if the hands
>have any moisture (sweat) on them.
>
>True the latex gloves are the easiest to work in and give the best
>"feel" of the gloves mentioned. So just choose, and if using latex
>gloves, watch out for a rash, particularly starting on the wrists and
>back of the hands. Oh, and with ANY gloves you use you will notice that
>when you put them on, then and only then, will your nose itch and need
>to be scratched or something needs to be wiped out of your eyes. Careful
>around the eyes with latex, they are more sensitive than the hands and
>for sure will get irritated fast.
>
>Rodger
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sylph" <sylph(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Center Section Size |
What length the center section?
Vi Kapler's 3-piece wing plans call for what I read as a 29" center section,
while I've noticed some on-line references to a 4 foot center section. Any
insight on this?
Thanks
Michael
Cut 600 plywood gussets and made cap strips bending jig.
Portland, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john hodnette <jhodnette(at)tecinfo.com> |
I work at a hospital and there is a big issue with latex allergies.
Some of the staff is allergic to the powder, so we have powder free
gloves. Some are allergic to latex, so we have latex free gloves.
There is even an issue with using latex gloves on patients who might
have allergies to latex. It never ends. I would recommend the cheapest
gloves available. John Hodnette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john hodnette <jhodnette(at)tecinfo.com> |
Gene: I chuckled when I read the post about the impact that television
has on the real world of healthcare. I doubt it if E.R. has the effect
you indicated. Having been in health care since 1976, I haven't seen an
emergency room that operated like the tv version. john hodnette
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weldwood recorcenal glue. |
Steve,
Weldwood recorcenal is excellent glue and will give no problems. This
is what I use when I repair a certified aircraft and have done so for
many years. Watch the temperture with winter coming on; do not let the
temp of the glue joint drop below 70 degrees F. for a day after glueing.
I repaired a Defender years ago and made a tent from a tarp keeping a
heat lamp in there to keep the glue joint warm until it warmed up
outside.
We are using T-88 on our Piet project, however. We are very pleased
with the results. One thing that a lot of people write in about is that
they sand or rough up the plywood before glueing to insure that it will
have a better bond. During my training as an A&P mechanic we were taught
this is a major no-no as sand particles are left in the wood weakening
the joint. Many homebuilders have done this however and don't seem to be
having any problems. We have not sanded or roughed any of our glue
joints and always made seperate test blocks to test. All have passed the
test just fine.
Also there has been discussion about chemical or allergic reactions to
glue and latex gloves. Over the past thirty som odd years I've used all
kinds of chemicals and didn't wear gloves at all. I've used a lot of
MEK, lacquer thinner, dope, paints of all types, and various glues and
other crap I can't even think of right now. Fortunately I'm not allergic
to too much and am still in good health despite appraoching sixty years.
I do do say often though that I am a walking, talking bio-hazard zone
though. We weren't told of many of these hazards thirty years ago and
much of this was ignorance. Be careful when handling chemicals or man
made materials of any type. I've just been luckey so far (I think), but
I have almost passed out from sprayng dope in an enclosed hangar during
winter while not using a mask and I the first time I painted using poly
urethane paint, I did so by painting the leading edge of a Cessna 188
with no mask. This stuff has cyanide in it!. I also was stripping paint
another 188 under an overhead space heater during winter in Iowa twenty
years ago. The heater was going full blast and suddenly I started
coughing uncontrollably as the hangar filled with a blue haze. The fumes
from the paint stripper went up inot the heater and burned to make a
poison gas of some sort. This was the worst experience I had as I also
couldn't think clearly and couldn't figure what was wrong, so I just kept
spreading stripper. Fortunately, I had two guys working for me and they
opened the hangar door to clear the air.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
>
>I am planning on using "Weldwood Recorcenal glue" to build my GN-1.
>Now
>is this a good glue for this or not!!
>
>Steve
>
>Steve W GN-1 builder
>IHA #6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Group,
I wrote earlier somewhat of trying to put a Mooney type trim on a Piet
and hope I conveyed it would really be a bag of worms, although certainly
not impossible. One thing I did not say was that although Mooney is
undoubtly the strongest production light plane built (there has only been
one metal wing Mooney to have its wing fail - it was torn apart in a
thunderstorm and I've heard everything from 17 to 22 Gs), the main
concern for structural integrity is the tail. Mooney has for the past
ten years gone to bigger and bigger engines and the palnes which were
already fast are now faster. A TLS will fly circles around a Bonanza and
are faster than all light twins except the very latest Aerostars and the
Beech Duke. Rocket Engineering of Spokane, Washington installs even
bigger engines in Mooneys and these will easily fly past a TLS. Many TLS
owners have told me that they can look back at the tail in flight and see
nothing but a blurr as the tail shakes so much. The big question at
Mooney is just how much this tail will take. No one really knows.
As slow as a Piet goes, this not a problem. But it is something to
think about.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | List Support Auction Continues... |
Dear Listers,
The List Support Auction is still underway with about 5 or 6 days left.
I have been receiving a number of nice bids on the items generously
donated by Steven and Archie. I've listed the items up for auction
again below and have included the current high-bid.
If there is an item that you wish to bid on, please send your BID along
with the DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM you are bidding on to the following
email address:
bids(at)matronics.com
Thanks again to Steven and Archie for donating these items to support
the List. And thank you to those that have sent in bids so far!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
======================================================================
Steven DiNieri (capsteve(at)wzrd.com) has generously offered to donate a
CoolStart RS 700-II to support the Lists this year. This unit retails
for $299. I have put a brochure for the product up on the web server
and you can have a look at it here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/rsflyer.jpg
NEW:
$175 * CoolStart RS 700-II
======================================================================
Archie (archie97(at)earthlink.net) has generously donated a number of
interesting items to the Support the List cause this year. Each of
them are described below. If you have additional questions, please
email Archie directly at:
archie97(at)earthlink.net
> Upon receipt of the donation amount, items will be shipped.
> No reasonable offer refused!
> Unreasonable ones considered!
NEW:
- * Heated Pitot Tube, 24v. "L" shaped.
- * Aero Instruments #5814-2
- * Flap Motor w/ adjustable stops. 24v.
- * Comm.Aircraft Prods. #D145-00-35-7
USED:
$45 * Narco Transponder AT5-A
- * Astronautics amplifier servo 53-005-214 mod#P1SA
$15 * Narco altitude reporter. to 25k' Model# AR500
- * King KS-505 power supply modulator
- * RCA AVQ55 Weather radar antenna MI 591000
======================================================================
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LanhamOS(at)aol.com |
So9me time ago I suggested trying the pre war Taylor craft Trim. The trim
was a vane halfway between the top longeron, and bottom longeron. This is
below the stabilizer and rudder assembly. It was abouit two inches wide, and
maybe 4 inches long. Metal. Some type of mechanism was placed under the right
seat, and the pilot pulled the trim tab up or down to adjust trim. I worked
beautifully. I do not know if
this was carried over on the pre war craft.
Dr. O. Lanham, Bellevue, Ne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
-----
>
> So9me time ago I suggested trying the pre war Taylor craft Trim. The
trim
>was a vane halfway between the top longeron, and bottom longeron. >Dr. O.
Lanham, Bellevue, Ne
The above was tried on a Piet. It was at Brodhead one year. Didn't work.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | Center Section Size |
Hi Michael,
Again this is an area where I feel some discretion is allowed. Bill Rewey
made his centersection 36" wide with a circular cutout to improve visibility
and ease of entry. I'm doing the same with mine. Bernie Pietenpol advised
against a circular cutout, claiming that it basically robbed the center
section of any lift. Since I'm using a Continental and don't have a
radiator blocking airflow around the centersection, I consider it a good
tradeoff. I also like the wider centersection because it will allow a
slightly larger fuel tank.
Just be aware that any changes to the plans will require different fitting
arrangements. Think through any changes you want to make very carefully,
and look at other Pietenpols. Talk to their builders if posible (I talked
with Bill Rewey at Oshkosh for nearly an hour back in 1997).
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sylph [SMTP:sylph(at)uswest.net]
> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 12:05 PM
> To: Pietenpol List
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center Section Size
>
>
> What length the center section?
>
> Vi Kapler's 3-piece wing plans call for what I read as a 29" center
> section,
> while I've noticed some on-line references to a 4 foot center section.
> Any
> insight on this?
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael
> Cut 600 plywood gussets and made cap strips bending jig.
> Portland, OR
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
The Taylorcraft (prewar) trim tab is larger than 2", actually, it is about
4" by 6". There is a slide lever that operates it via two cables. It
would probably work well on a Piet. Yesterday, I was flying close
formation with a friend in his T-Craft and he had the original trim tab on
the fuselage side AND a small tab on the elevator which was bent up. I
meant to ask him about it when we got down, but forgot. Maybe I'll call
today and find out why two tabs. Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RWhitt1245(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 11/27/99 |
in keeping with the spirit of the being 100% original, I have a 5 gallon can
of 60 year old gasoline for sale $10/chunk
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 11/27/99 |
| From: | Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> |
>
>in keeping with the spirit of the being 100% original, I have a 5
>gallon can
>of 60 year old gasoline for sale $10/chunk
>
>Ron
>
>
>Ron
It is only of interest if you can prove it came from the Cherry Grove
Texaco station or it has identifiable dust and spider-webs from the
Pietenpol hangar. Without either of those characteristics, the value
drops to about 12 cents/chunk..........if you can find a buyer.
By the way, do yourself a favor and don't touch the stuff unless you are
wearing unpowdered, hypoallergenic, non-latex, Pietenpol-list approved
rubber gloves.
Larry
PS I have some tail-wheel springs that were purportedly buried by B.
Pietenpol behind his TV repair shop in a Mason jar to age harden. They
are available at this address or I can bring them to B'Head next July.
$15 ea. (Mason jar extra)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
this looks like a promising alternative source for
wheels
thanks leon for the good lead. what size wheel did you
order? was it a dune buggy wheel or dragster jr.
http://www.douglaswheel.com/introduction.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kyle ray" <rrobert(at)centuryinter.net> |
yes do a search on boat lumber +"boat lumber" +sidney +"british columbia"
talk to the norwegian named jhan
you will find good fir fir 4:00 a board foot
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Leopold <frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: spars
>
> Does anyone have a good source for Douglas Fir here in the mid-west.
> Everything I have looked at is hardly suitable for firewood.
> Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Del: I didn't have their catalog, so I never really knew what they
called them. Since I got their address from an ATV-4 Wheeler magazine I
simply asked about their 4-wheeler wheels. I went with 8" like the guy
in the BPAN article. I chose 3" outer and 3' inner half for 6'' with.
The outer half seems to have a slightly tapered "dish'' and hole for
the valve stem. The inner half has straight sides giving more room for
your brakes. That's about all I can tell you about them. Also I DIDN'T
tell them they were to be used on an airplane. Let me know what you
decide to do. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
just received the fall 1999 edition of the SSA mag "TO FLY". nice
article titled "Piet's a Plenty" featuring Kyle Bradford of Eaton
Rapids, Mi.. kudos to you Kyle, from heavy metal driver to piet
driver. WOW , I've heard of culture shock, this must be technology
shock. way to go Cap'n Kyle !
regards
JoeC
Zion, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
leon
they have three different thicknesses available. .125,
.160, and .190. Do you know what you used, or could
you grab a calipers and measure the thickness (if
possible) If you don't have a calipers. .125 is 1/8
and .190 is 3/16. My guess is .190.
del
--- Leon Stefan wrote:
> leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>
> Del: I didn't have their catalog, so I never really
> knew what they
> called them. Since I got their address from an ATV-4
> Wheeler magazine I
> simply asked about their 4-wheeler wheels. I went
> with 8" like the guy
> in the BPAN article. I chose 3" outer and 3' inner
> half for 6'' with.
> The outer half seems to have a slightly tapered
> "dish'' and hole for
> the valve stem. The inner half has straight sides
> giving more room for
> your brakes. That's about all I can tell you about
> them. Also I DIDN'T
> tell them they were to be used on an airplane. Let
> me know what you
> decide to do. Leon S.
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>
> Settlement...
> http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Can of worms?? I dont think so.
Um I am looking for the best and cheapest source for 4130 tubing. I know
AS sells it and so does wicks. But theres gotta be a better way than just
them HUH!!??
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
Dillsburg Areoplane works........717-432-4589
I get all my tubing and AN hardware there.. short AN lengths comparable to
AS&S , longer AN lengths a fraction of AS&S.
They will cut any length tubing. They don't do Visa thing, they send me an
order and I send a check.
Give them a call, and they'll send you a price list.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
; mantyla(at)ionsys.com
Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 4:17 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing.
>
>Can of worms?? I dont think so.
>
>Um I am looking for the best and cheapest source for 4130 tubing. I know
>AS sells it and so does wicks. But theres gotta be a better way than just
>them HUH!!??
>
>Steve
>
>Steve W GN-1 builder
>IHA #6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SAM & JAN MARINUCCI" <srmjem(at)ezol.com> |
Guys,
There's a great writeup in the Dec issue of Sport Aviation about
our favorite plane. It features the oldest Aircamper and the latest (Mike
Cuy's). Be sure to read it.... you're sure to enjoy it.
Sam
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
This may sound dumb but can someone tell me what it means when in the
Dillsberg catalog they list "5 liner ft" means. I priced it by the foot
in this catagory and its a good bargen. Please eenliten me on this.
Steve
writes:
>
>
> Dillsburg Areoplane works........717-432-4589
> I get all my tubing and AN hardware there.. short AN lengths
> comparable to
> AS&S , longer AN lengths a fraction of AS&S.
> They will cut any length tubing. They don't do Visa thing, they send
> me an
> order and I send a check.
> Give them a call, and they'll send you a price list.
> walt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
> To: fly5k(at)listbot.com ;
> pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> ; mantyla(at)ionsys.com
>
> Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 4:17 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing.
>
>
> >
> >Can of worms?? I dont think so.
> >
> >Um I am looking for the best and cheapest source for 4130 tubing. I
> know
> >AS sells it and so does wicks. But theres gotta be a better way
> than just
> >them HUH!!??
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >Steve W GN-1 builder
> >IHA #6
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
Steve,
If you mean in the top right column,,,that means if you buy a length from
5' up to the total length of the " stick",,,it's that price per foot.
Like if you need only 2 ft. of tubing for wheel hubs,,,that piece will cost
a little more per foot.
walt
-----Original Message-----
From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing.
>
>This may sound dumb but can someone tell me what it means when in the
>Dillsberg catalog they list "5 liner ft" means. I priced it by the foot
>in this catagory and its a good bargen. Please eenliten me on this.
>
>Steve
>
>
> writes:
>>
>>
>> Dillsburg Areoplane works........717-432-4589
>> I get all my tubing and AN hardware there.. short AN lengths
>> comparable to
>> AS&S , longer AN lengths a fraction of AS&S.
>> They will cut any length tubing. They don't do Visa thing, they send
>> me an
>> order and I send a check.
>> Give them a call, and they'll send you a price list.
>> walt
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com>
>> To: fly5k(at)listbot.com ;
>> pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> ; mantyla(at)ionsys.com
>>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 4:17 PM
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Can of worms?? I dont think so.
>> >
>> >Um I am looking for the best and cheapest source for 4130 tubing. I
>> know
>> >AS sells it and so does wicks. But theres gotta be a better way
>> than just
>> >them HUH!!??
>> >
>> >Steve
>> >
>> >Steve W GN-1 builder
>> >IHA #6
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Steve W GN-1 builder
>IHA #6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
>
>Dillsburg Areoplane works........717-432-4589
>I get all my tubing and AN hardware there.. >>
A big amen to that. All rhe 4130 for N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) came from
Dillsburg. A great outfit.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Leopold" <frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | taylorcraft trim |
Dr.O. Lanham
I owned a 1940 T-craft. The trim tab consisted of a steel tube spar around
3/8" dia. that ran through the fuselage below the horiz stab. The tube
extended beyond the fuse sides about 10". A .032 alum skin was bent into a
thin airfoil shape and riveted around the trailing edge. This airfoil (2ea)
was bolted to each side of the through spar. A small bellcrank was then
bolted to the center of the spar inside of the fuselage. hard piano wire
attached to the bellcrank (top and bottom). As the wire ran forward it
crossed, so when it reached a small L shaped trim control lever that was
attached to the frame under the seat, the aft lower wire attached to the top
of the trim control and the aft upper wire attached to the lower trim
control. This trim isn't the best but it did work and it was simple and
light. I made a drawing of this tab and spar. If you are interested I may be
able to get a copy from the new owner.
Gary
frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
there is so little used that it's hardly worth
scouting around for. If you did find a place it would
be wholesale and you would maybe have to buy more than
you need. whereas wicks or as will cut it right to
length at no extra charge. you can buy a misc pile
from them for next to nothing. some have been happy
with that. I hav'nt tried that.
--- vistin(at)juno.com wrote:
> vistin(at)juno.com
>
> Can of worms?? I dont think so.
>
> Um I am looking for the best and cheapest source for
> 4130 tubing. I know
> AS sells it and so does wicks. But theres gotta be a
> better way than just
> them HUH!!??
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> IHA #6
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>
> Settlement...
> http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
likewise the Sport aviation has a VERY nice article on
piets. nice going mike cuy!
--- fishin wrote:
>
>
> just received the fall 1999 edition of the SSA mag
> "TO FLY". nice
> article titled "Piet's a Plenty" featuring Kyle
> Bradford of Eaton
> Rapids, Mi.. kudos to you Kyle, from heavy metal
> driver to piet
> driver. WOW , I've heard of culture shock, this must
> be technology
> shock. way to go Cap'n Kyle !
> regards
> JoeC
> Zion, Illinois
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>
> Settlement...
> http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. - Streamlined tubing? |
Mike (B)....
How about streamlined tubing for struts or center section struts??? Do you
know if they carry this? Is it priced more better? :)
Thanks,
Bert (who now has elevators and a rudder that work)
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Brusilow <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing.
>
>
>
>>
>>Dillsburg Areoplane works........717-432-4589
>>I get all my tubing and AN hardware there.. >>
>
> A big amen to that. All rhe 4130 for N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) came from
>Dillsburg. A great outfit.
>
> Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: taylorcraft trim |
In my previous msg I stated that my friend's T-craft had both a trim tab
underneath the horizontal stab and a tab on the elevator . . . he states
that the tab was insufficient on his aircraft and that he had to add the
extra tab. I thought the pre-war Tcrafts I have flown had sufficient trim,
but it has been a while. He also said that the T-craft type tab was not
suitable for the Piet, had been tried several times. He should know, he's
on the cover of the EAA Experimenter magazine this month in a Piet.
----------
> From: Gary Leopold <frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net>
> To: piet
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: taylorcraft trim
> Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:27 PM
>
>
> Dr.O. Lanham
> I owned a 1940 T-craft. The trim tab consisted of a steel tube spar
around
> 3/8" dia. that ran through the fuselage below the horiz stab. The tube
> extended beyond the fuse sides about 10". A .032 alum skin was bent into
a
> thin airfoil shape and riveted around the trailing edge. This airfoil
(2ea)
> was bolted to each side of the through spar. A small bellcrank was then
> bolted to the center of the spar inside of the fuselage. hard piano wire
> attached to the bellcrank (top and bottom). As the wire ran forward it
> crossed, so when it reached a small L shaped trim control lever that was
> attached to the frame under the seat, the aft lower wire attached to the
top
> of the trim control and the aft upper wire attached to the lower trim
> control. This trim isn't the best but it did work and it was simple and
> light. I made a drawing of this tab and spar. If you are interested I may
be
> able to get a copy from the new owner.
> Gary
> frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
"List Support Auction Continues..." (Dec 5, 12:21pm)
tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Final Days to Make Your Bid! |
Dear Listers,
The List Support Auction is still underway with only 2 or 3 days left to
make your bid! I've received a number of new bids on the items
generously donated by Steven and Archie. I've listed the items up for
auction below and have updated the current high-bids. If your bid was
lower than the one shown below on a given item, it means that someone
else has bid a greater amount. If you still would like the item, please
feel free to send in a new bid.
If there is an item that you wish to bid on, please send your BID along
with the DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM you are bidding on to the following
email address:
bids(at)matronics.com
Thanks again to Steven and Archie for donating these items to support
the List. And thank you to those that have sent in bids so far!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
======================================================================
Steven DiNieri (capsteve(at)wzrd.com) has generously offered to donate a
CoolStart RS 700-II to support the Lists this year. This unit retails
for $299. I have put a brochure for the product up on the web server
and you can have a look at it here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/rsflyer.jpg
NEW:
$175 * CoolStart RS 700-II
======================================================================
Archie (archie97(at)earthlink.net) has generously donated a number of
interesting items to the Support the List cause this year. Each of
them are described below. If you have additional questions, please
email Archie directly at:
archie97(at)earthlink.net
> Upon receipt of the donation amount, items will be shipped.
> No reasonable offer refused!
> Unreasonable ones considered!
NEW:
- * Heated Pitot Tube, 24v. "L" shaped.
- * Aero Instruments #5814-2
- * Flap Motor w/ adjustable stops. 24v.
- * Comm.Aircraft Prods. #D145-00-35-7
USED:
$95 * Narco Transponder AT5-A
- * Astronautics amplifier servo 53-005-214 mod#P1SA
$75 * Narco altitude reporter. to 25k' Model# AR500
- * King KS-505 power supply modulator
$10 * RCA AVQ55 Weather radar antenna MI 591000
======================================================================
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "plane" <plane(at)atomic.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
The dillsburg aeroplane works has the largest supply of 4130 and aluminum
that I have ever seen and the cheapest to. very good people to deal with,
they are located in PA, they always shipped my orders within 24 hours. hope
that this helps.
>
Randy Bortree
> Kolb ultrastar
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
Hi Steve,
Try the Dillsburg Aeroplane Works. I think they are in Pennsylvania. I got
their name out of Sport Aviation and have found them to have about the best
prices and largest inventory. My brother used them exclusively for the
tubing on his Hatz biplane. I don't have their number here at work, but I
can get it at home tonight.
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vistin(at)juno.com [SMTP:vistin(at)juno.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 3:47 PM
> To: fly5k(at)listbot.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com; mantyla(at)ionsys.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing.
>
>
> Can of worms?? I dont think so.
>
> Um I am looking for the best and cheapest source for 4130 tubing. I know
> AS sells it and so does wicks. But theres gotta be a better way than just
> them HUH!!??
>
> Steve
>
> Steve W GN-1 builder
> IHA #6
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. |
Thanks to all on my tubing question. I will order from Dillsburg and
Thanks again yall.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. - Streamlined tubing? |
>
>Mike (B)....
>
>How about streamlined tubing for struts or center section struts??? Do you
>know if they carry this? Is it priced more better? :)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bert (who now has elevators and a rudder that work)
Bert: don't know for sure if Dillsburg carries those items. I don't have
their catalog handy. Give them a call. Don't remember where I got my
streamline tubing. It was 13 years ago.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Del: I forgot that there was a choice in thickness. Yes I went with the
.190" Still very light. Funny you mention calipers. When I started this
project, I bought the best Chinese caliper money could buy from Sears.
Last week I knocked the off my bench. It now has irreversible brain
damage. Should I add this into my construction cost? Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
Also, Novembers Experimentor also has a nice article on the Piet History
including some modern Piet pics.
Ken
On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, del magsam wrote:
>
> likewise the Sport aviation has a VERY nice article on
> piets. nice going mike cuy!
>
> --- fishin wrote:
> >
> >
> > just received the fall 1999 edition of the SSA mag
> > "TO FLY". nice
> > article titled "Piet's a Plenty" featuring Kyle
> > Bradford of Eaton
> > Rapids, Mi.. kudos to you Kyle, from heavy metal
> > driver to piet
> > driver. WOW , I've heard of culture shock, this must
> > be technology
> > shock. way to go Cap'n Kyle !
> > regards
> > JoeC
> > Zion, Illinois
> >
> >
> >
> > through
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> >
> > Settlement...
> > http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. - Streamlined tubing? |
Dillsburg does indeed carry streamline tubing. Expensive!!!!
Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | 4130 streamlined |
Bert,
Yea they do. Got my vert. struts from Dillsburg, and my main wing struts
from an "old strut" pile in the hanger attic.
walt
Mike (B)....
How about streamlined tubing for struts or center section struts??? Do you
know if they carry this? Is it priced more better? :)
Thanks,
Bert (who now has elevators and a rudder that work)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Leaving calipers on the bench hanging over the edge is
a common habit for many machinests. I have knocked
them off the edge more than once. I now make a habit
of making sure they are away from the edge. because
the kind I like to use are $150.00.
thanks for the info!
del
--- Leon Stefan wrote:
> leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>
> Del: I forgot that there was a choice in thickness.
> Yes I went with the
> .190" Still very light. Funny you mention calipers.
> When I started this
> project, I bought the best Chinese caliper money
> could buy from Sears.
> Last week I knocked the off my bench. It now has
> irreversible brain
> damage. Should I add this into my construction cost?
> Leon S.
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>
> Settlement...
> http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 4130 tubing. - Streamlined tubing? |
Bert...you got your answer on streamline tubing. Dillsburg is definitely the
place. They claim to have the largest supply of tubing in the world and from
what I've heard from those who have been there that's probably an accurate
statement. They are also the nicest people to deal with. Yes, streamlined
tubing is expensive but it is quite a bit less at Dillsburg. I got mine there
for a bit over $300.00. Incidentally, I abandoned my project of constructing
my own streamlined lift struts using rectangular tubing sandwiched in shaped
poplar (similar to what Gary Price did on his Piet). After making one and
weighing it I found that it came in heavier than originally calculated, by a
total of 15 lbs. for all four struts which would have been prohibitive
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | StOrMiN3(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: .for sale!!! |
Hello,
I have a costom made gas tank 12 gal.... 12'' deep 14''
long...22'' wide will sell for $200 its worth $350 in Aircraft Spruce and
Wicks Aircraft the hole tank is there the tank is ready to go. the tank is
$200 o.b.o.
Sincerly,
Erik H Baxter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Does anybody have any ideas or sketches on how to
route the engine heat into the cockpits to stretch the
flying season? I can envision a flapper door at the
bottom of the firewall that closes the normal heat
outlet and reroutes it into the cockpit.
thanks
del
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | AS&S Online Ordering |
Pietenpoler's
Yesterday I had an interesting experience with Spruce's online ordering
through the Web that I thought I'd share with everyone. Some folks are into
ordering online so this is for y'all.
I went to order some wood, glue, and tubing from AS&S, and got all my part
numbers in, amounts needed, and the online ordering software had calculated
all my prices and total. I reviewed it, put in my card number, and hit
submit, and Spruce's website replied back that there were errors in my
order, SO I needed to review it, correct it, and resubmit. Okay, So I tried
it again, again, again, and again. I finally gave up and figured I'd phone
order it the next day.
When I logged on to check email last night, I was greeted by 5 order
confirmations! All the orders HAD been placed! It was no big deal, I called
them this morning, and a nice lady there helped me to work through it all,
and reduce my order to just one. She did think it was pretty funny, though,
me too once it was worked out! I did tell them I think they have a software
glitch. Maybe Y2K early!
So, if you order from AS&S online, and get an error message, stop there!
You may have already placed your order!
Gary Meadows
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich <houndsfour(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: cockpit heat |
del magsam wrote:
>
>
>
> Does anybody have any ideas or sketches on how to
> route the engine heat into the cockpits to stretch the
> flying season? I can envision a flapper door at the
> bottom of the firewall that closes the normal heat
> outlet and reroutes it into the cockpit.
> thanks
> del
Hi Del
You may want to look at VAN'S Aircraft parts catalog. They have
a heat valve that mounts on/through the fire wall. Use Scat tubing
from the heat muff to the valve and again from the valve on the inside
of the cockpit to were the heat will do the mout good.
I limit my flying to 65 degrees.
Rich
81ET
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ref: Cockpit heater |
Del Magsam wrote wanting cockpit heater ideas;
Well Del, I've been told that if you leave the front cockpit open and
empty, then the heated air from the radiator in front will flow down
into the front cockpit and back to the pilot and keep his/her feet and
legs warm.
Now, this is predicated on using the Ford or sum such water cooled
engine. For an aircooled engine, well take a hint from motorcyclists,
use an electrically heated set of grips, one for the stick and also an
electrically heated vest and gloves for the ol' bod. Easy to find in
any motorcycle magazine.
Rodger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Cockpit heater |
Del, you could do what the snowmobilers up here do in the winter.
Add a snowmobile suite, boots mitts, helmet and face shield. I
have done 2 hours solid at 70 mph on lake of the woods at -36C
before I started to feel the cold. The Piet with almost full
enclosure and proper widscreen will give the rider more
protection than a snow machine does.
For what it's worth....
-=Ian=-
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Cockpit heater
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Del Magsam wrote wanting cockpit heater ideas;
>
> Well Del, I've been told that if you leave the front cockpit
open and
> empty, then the heated air from the radiator in front will flow
down
> into the front cockpit and back to the pilot and keep his/her
feet and
> legs warm.
>
> Now, this is predicated on using the Ford or sum such water
cooled
> engine. For an aircooled engine, well take a hint from
motorcyclists,
> use an electrically heated set of grips, one for the stick and
also an
> electrically heated vest and gloves for the ol' bod. Easy to
find in
> any motorcycle magazine.
>
> Rodger
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: cockpit heat |
Del:
If all else fails.....
You COULD move down here to Florida. Huh?
;>)
All the Best,
Bert
(There's always one in any crowd.... and I'm usually it!)
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich <houndsfour(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Thursday, December 09, 1999 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cockpit heat
>
>del magsam wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anybody have any ideas or sketches on how to
>> route the engine heat into the cockpits to stretch the
>> flying season? I can envision a flapper door at the
>> bottom of the firewall that closes the normal heat
>> outlet and reroutes it into the cockpit.
>> thanks
>> del
>
>Hi Del
>You may want to look at VAN'S Aircraft parts catalog. They have
>a heat valve that mounts on/through the fire wall. Use Scat tubing
>from the heat muff to the valve and again from the valve on the inside
>of the cockpit to were the heat will do the mout good.
>I limit my flying to 65 degrees.
>Rich
>81ET
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | StOrMiN3(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:gas tank |
Hello,
I have a costom made gas tank 12 gal.... 12'' deep 14''
long...22'' wide will sell for $200 its worth $350 in Aircraft Spruce and
Wicks Aircraft the whole tank is there the tank is ready to go. the tank is
$200 o.b.o.
Sincerly,
Erik H Baxter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Cockpit heater |
Whats -36c in American?
I remember reading about a guy in alaska who flew his open biplane in the
1930's from Nome to Fairbanks, in dead of winter...
The old fighter pilots after the first war would put a big leather apron
over the cockpit, and attached to the coambing. With a head opening. This
kept the wind out.
The apron, + cockpit heat should work pretty well...
Bob
>From: "Ian Holland" <iholland@microage-tb.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Cockpit heater
>Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:22:09 -0500
>
><iholland@microage-tb.com>
>
>Del, you could do what the snowmobilers up here do in the winter.
>Add a snowmobile suite, boots mitts, helmet and face shield. I
>have done 2 hours solid at 70 mph on lake of the woods at -36C
>before I started to feel the cold. The Piet with almost full
>enclosure and proper widscreen will give the rider more
>protection than a snow machine does.
>For what it's worth....
>-=Ian=-
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:13 PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ref: Cockpit heater
>
>
><childsway@indian-creek.net>
> >
> > Del Magsam wrote wanting cockpit heater ideas;
> >
> > Well Del, I've been told that if you leave the front cockpit
>open and
> > empty, then the heated air from the radiator in front will flow
>down
> > into the front cockpit and back to the pilot and keep his/her
>feet and
> > legs warm.
> >
> > Now, this is predicated on using the Ford or sum such water
>cooled
> > engine. For an aircooled engine, well take a hint from
>motorcyclists,
> > use an electrically heated set of grips, one for the stick and
>also an
> > electrically heated vest and gloves for the ol' bod. Easy to
>find in
> > any motorcycle magazine.
> >
> > Rodger
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
Hi Del,
Piper J-3's had a very inneffective heater that routed air through a door on
the bottom of the firewall and warmed the left foot of the person in the
front cockpit. My Cessna 140 has a slightly more effective heater that uses
a round device on the firewall operated by a push-pull cable to admit air
from around the heat muffs into the cabin. While either could be used to
provide a slight bit of warmth to the front cockpit, I don't think they
would be effective in the rear cockpit of a Pietenpol, even with the front
cockpit covered over. I suggest a leather flying jacket and gloves. Trade
the silk scarf for a woolen one.
Jack
> -----Original Message-----
> From: del magsam [SMTP:farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:37 PM
> To: piet aircamper
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: cockpit heat
>
>
>
> Does anybody have any ideas or sketches on how to
> route the engine heat into the cockpits to stretch the
> flying season? I can envision a flapper door at the
> bottom of the firewall that closes the normal heat
> outlet and reroutes it into the cockpit.
> thanks
> del
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Cockpit heater |
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, oil can wrote:
>
>
> Whats -36c in American?
>
> I remember reading about a guy in alaska who flew his open biplane in the
> 1930's from Nome to Fairbanks, in dead of winter...
>
> The old fighter pilots after the first war would put a big leather apron
> over the cockpit, and attached to the coambing. With a head opening. This
> kept the wind out.
>
> The apron, + cockpit heat should work pretty well...
>
> Bob
>
Converting temperatures from Celcius to Fahrenhiet ("American") is fairly
easy:
(Degrees F - 32) x 1.8 = Degrees C
Degrees C x 1.8 + 32 = Degrees F
So
-36C x 1.8 + 32 = -32.8F
Interesting points:
-40F = -40C
32F = 0C
98.6F = 37C
212F = 100C
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SAM & JAN MARINUCCI" <srmjem(at)ezol.com> |
Rolled aluminum hinges should absolutely not be used for control surfaces.
This is a high stress area and the hinges should have adequate strength to
withstand these stresses. Don't forget that your butt and your passengers'
are relying on your workmanship and the quality of the materials used. Bite
the bullet and spend the extra bucks to get the extruded hinges. Your piece
of mind will be worth it.
Nuff said and good luck on your piet,
Sam
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of EZ Online
http://www.ezol.com The area's BEST Internet Service
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Cockpit heater |
At -40 American = Canadian. -36C translates to damn cold (or time to
plug in your dog)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Ref: Cockpit heater |
Heck, -40 is when we Canadians finally conceed and put on a sweater ;-)
Seriously though, I was skiing in -18 C last winter with 30G40 winds.
With the snow falling, it was complete white-out, especially above the
treeline. Top elevation is 9000'.
To bring this to some sembelance of "aircraft related", it's amazing the
disorientation that accompanies the white-out. With absolutely no visual
reference, no audible reference (wind drowned it out) and on soft packed
powder there is no concept of speed. I fell over once when I thought I was
stopped and was actually moving with some speed. I can only imagine that
this is similar to the disorientation as VFR into IMC. (see aviation stuff
;-).
As to the original heater question, there is a relatively inexpensive, 25
A heater available from ASS that does a respectible job of heating up the
cabin. In addition, there are car warmers available from auto supply
places (especially up here in the great white north) that would probably
work well. Personally, I dislike the exhaust style heaters with the
possibility of introducing CO into the cabin. Obviously, this is less of a
problem with open cockpit machines.
Ken
On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Ian Holland wrote:
>
> At -40 American = Canadian. -36C translates to damn cold (or time to
> plug in your dog)
>
>
>
>
>
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12/09/99 |
First to Oilcan, -36c is almost exactly -36f. The two scales agree only at
that point. Cold by anyones standards.
And to Del ...I had no heater in my Piper J-5A and flew it in northern
Minnesota for six years. When it went below -20f we usually didn't fly,
metal does some strange things at very low temperatures - and why take
chances. We would wear snomobile suits and boots, a warm woolen Balaclava
hat and mittens (gloves let your fingers get to cold). with light weight
liner gloves. Most of us used shooters mittens that had a vent across the
palm to allow one to get your fingers out for anything that could not be
manipulated with the mittens.
For my Scout maybe a small radiator valved & ducted from the engine. Three
or four pounds and more comfort than probably needed. Why didn't B. P.
design a heater? Well, most SANE homebuilders in Minnesota fly in the good
weather and build in the bad!
DG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TomTravis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:gas tank |
Erik,
Is the gas tank from Wicks or Spruce or did you fabricate it? Where are you
located?
Thanks,
Tom Travis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com> |
Test.
Domenic
Fly "Low and Slow", by the seat of your pants.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Just put the last piece of wood on right wing |
Just last night put the 2" piece of 1/16" ply on the top side of the root of
the right wing last night. Soon it will be on tt the left.
walt evans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | StOrMiN3(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:gas tank |
home built...... and it sold
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | just how many drawings are there? |
OK, after getting together with a fellow Piet list person today, it appears
that everything I thought I knew about Piet drawings is wrong. Just how
many different sets are there? I have a black and white set, drawn by
Hoopman, that I believe are the "original" drawings from the 1920's. This
set has the spreader bar landing gear and the extra drawings for the Velie
engine mount and the small solid tailwheel. I also have a set of true
blueprints, also drawn by Hoopman, which are dated 1933-34. This set has
the split axle (E-2 Cub type) landing gear. Other "improvements" in these
plans include a redesigned tail construction, the aileron cables that go
straight up from a bellcrank rather than out the side of the fuselage, and
other changes. Most importantly, the blueprint fuselage is 2" longer than
the one in the older set. Neither set shows the three-piece wing (not that
I want one). Are there other sets?? Where does the "long" fuselage come
from?? I am trying to settle some fuselage discrepancies and need some
help. Listed below are the fuselage stations from along the upper longeron
from left to right. Someone please let me know if you have anything
different (other than the 2" shorter version).
14 1/2, 28 3/4, 29, 27 1/4, 27, 20, 16 1/2.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com> |
| Subject: | Re: just how many drawings are there? |
The longer fuselage is Mr. Pietenpols' 1967 version for use with the Corvair
Engine.
Dom.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Put new pics on site |
I put some new pics of my progress, If you want to see.
walt evans
http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/
________________________________________________________________________________
tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | Matt Dralle 925-606-1001 <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: List Support Bidding Closed... |
Dear Listers,
If you made a winning bid on one of the items generously donated by Steven
DiNieri (capsteve(at)wzrd.com) and Archie (archie97(at)earthlink.net) this year,
then you should have already received an email message from me with
instructions on how to obtain each of your items. You will be receiving a
separate email for each item.
I want to thank everyone that sent in a bid, and especially Steven and
Archie for their generous contribution donation this year, as well as those
that made the winning high bids!
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year to support the
Lists. The LOC #2 will be coming out at the end of the month, and there
will be quite a few additional contributors on it!
Thank you to one and all!
Best regards
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wayne" <sippola(at)escape.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: just how many drawings are there? |
Good to see you back on the list Domenic. As I intend to use the corvair,
I am rather interested to hear if you got the bugs out of yours and the
performance you expected. Hope you won't mind filling us in!
Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg
----------
> From: Domenico Bellissimo <adbell(at)yesic.com>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: just how many drawings are there?
> Date: Sunday, December 12, 1999 8:46 AM
>
>
> The longer fuselage is Mr. Pietenpols' 1967 version for use with the
Corvair
> Engine.
> Dom.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: just how many drawings are there? |
Gene Rambo
I too have asked the same question on how many different drawings are in
existence
Those I know of are 1- those in the 1932 FGM, 2- Don Pietenpol's 1933/4
plans,-3
Supplemental plans from Don Pietenpol on the 1966 extended fuselage inteded
for use with the Corvair engine (and I assume C-65's/85's etc} Grant notebook
said there have been three fuselage lengths for the Aircamper and two for the
Scout. My notes show the following fuselage lengths: '32 FGM 13'-5", 1933
Pietenpol plans 13'-9",
1966 Supplement 14'-4 3/8" I believe these are known respectively as the
'short' , 'extended' and 'long'. I have never seen the plans that Mr.
Hoopman supplies other than the original ones he drew in the early thirties,
any pre-FGM drawings, true blueprints or those sold by Chad Willie (which I
think are GN-1 plans) I am not at all certain that all of this is correct and
like you would welcome a total list from any lister who can describe every
set in existence Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: just how many drawings are there? |
OK, but are the '32 FGM drawings the ones with the spreader bar landing
gear? Also, the fuselage lengths you give do not jive with the lengths I
gave. The fuselage in the drawings dated 1933-34 is only 2" longer than
the one in the "older" set of drawings I have, not 4". Would SOMEONE
please just list off the dimensions from along the top longeron from
any/all drawings they have!! This may clear up how many different
fuselages there are, and will lead to more follow-up questions I have
regarding obvious errors in the drawings. I do now understand that there
is the 1960's drawing with a somewhat longer fuselage for the corvair
engine (although for the life of me I cannot understand why you would want
a LONGER fuselage for a LIGHTER engine, this seems bass-ackwards), making
there three fuselages that I know of.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: just how many drawings are there? |
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>
> regarding obvious errors in the drawings. I do now understand that there
> is the 1960's drawing with a somewhat longer fuselage for the corvair
> engine (although for the life of me I cannot understand why you would want
> a LONGER fuselage for a LIGHTER engine, this seems bass-ackwards), making
> there three fuselages that I know of.
Actually, it makes perfecy sense. Having never seen the plans for the
longer fuselage, I'm assuming that the length increase is ahead of the
wing. Have you ever seen a radial engined aircraft that's been switched to
turbine? The Beaver, for example is about 2' longer in the nose with the
turbine mainly to accomadate the turbines lighter weight. The lighter the
engine, the further forward it has to go. If not, the plane will have to
be ballasted in the tail to achieve the W&B.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
________________________________________________________________________________
fly5k(at)listbot.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
I am looking for a cheap source for 6061 T6. If anyone has a good source
for aluminum I would appreciate it.
Steve
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: cockpit heat |
Man, those J-3 cabin heaters were a joke. I learned to fly in Northern
Illinois and used to fly a J-3 in the winter with the temp below zero -
using the cabin heat required constant concentration; you had to think
warm thoughts, think of the sun, really, really concentrate. I don't
think they raised the cabin temp a single degree
John Langston
writes:
>
>
>Hi Del,
>
>Piper J-3's had a very inneffective heater that routed air through a
>door on
>the bottom of the firewall and warmed the left foot of the person in
>the
>front cockpit. My Cessna 140 has a slightly more effective heater
>that uses
>a round device on the firewall operated by a push-pull cable to admit
>air
>from around the heat muffs into the cabin. While either could be used
>to
>provide a slight bit of warmth to the front cockpit, I don't think
>they
>would be effective in the rear cockpit of a Pietenpol, even with the
>front
>cockpit covered over. I suggest a leather flying jacket and gloves.
>Trade
>the silk scarf for a woolen one.
>
> Jack
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: del magsam [SMTP:farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:37 PM
>> To: piet aircamper
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: cockpit heat
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anybody have any ideas or sketches on how to
>> route the engine heat into the cockpits to stretch the
>> flying season? I can envision a flapper door at the
>> bottom of the firewall that closes the normal heat
>> outlet and reroutes it into the cockpit.
>> thanks
>> del
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TXTdragger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: just how many drawings are there? |
In a message dated 12/13/1999 12:06:11 PM Central Standard Time,
kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca writes:
<< If not, the plane will have to be ballasted in the tail to achieve the
W&B. >>
ballast removed from tail, if lighter engine used ... right
John D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TXTdragger(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 12/13/1999 2:44:40 PM Central Standard Time,
vistin(at)juno.com writes:
<< Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 >>
Steve u still transmitting in triplicate ... ?????????
John D
________________________________________________________________________________
No John I am on as many mail lists as you are .
Steve
>
> In a message dated 12/13/1999 2:44:40 PM Central Standard Time,
> vistin(at)juno.com writes:
>
> << Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 >>
>
> Steve u still transmitting in triplicate ... ?????????
>
> John D
>
>
>
>
>
Steve W GN-1 builder
IHA #6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TXTdragger(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 12/13/1999 3:53:47 PM Central Standard Time,
vistin(at)juno.com writes:
<< I am on as many mail lists as you are . >>
roger ... I'm on too many probably ... aren't you in Dallas? ... would love
to see GN1, sort of losing interest in "pure Piet". Take care ... wish you
smooth air & great holidays.
John D
________________________________________________________________________________
No John I live in Mississippi. Do you live in Dallas? If so lets talk.
off the list.
>
> In a message dated 12/13/1999 3:53:47 PM Central Standard Time,
> vistin(at)juno.com writes:
>
> << I am on as many mail lists as you are . >>
> roger ... I'm on too many probably ... aren't you in Dallas? ...
> would love
> to see GN1, sort of losing interest in "pure Piet". Take care ...
November 09, 1999 - December 13, 1999
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bj