Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bl

January 09, 2000 - January 30, 2000



      
      When I did my ribs this last spring and summer I used T-88 glue and
      stapled the gussets with a regular stationery  stapler from my desk at
      school.  Once I forgot to bring it home and used our little swingline
      from my desk at home.  I even got it to work OK.   I had started by
      clamping the gussets, but that took too much time and could often get
      kind of messy.   I would mount all the pieces in the jig the night before
      and make sure I had all the gussets I needed (about a 15-20 minute job),
      then the next morning I would glue it up, along with the backside of the
      one I had removed.  That would take a total of about 40 minutes.  Put the
      glue on about half the joints of one rib,slap on the gussets, glue the
      rest of the joints, lay on those gussets, then staple them all.  I just
      positioned the stapler carefully, then gave it a good rap.  Worked slick
      as could be.  The staples leave very small holes.  To remove staples, I
      pried them up partially with an old 1/4" chisel, then pulled the rest of
      the way with a needle nosed pliers.  To remove staples took 6minutes per
      rib.   I was very pleased with the results.
      
      
      John Fay in Peoria
      
      jefay(at)juno.com
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet" , "5k"
Subject: Pietenpol Ariel
Date: Jan 09, 2000
Hey Guys Does anybody have any experience with the Ariel Bipe conversion for the Pietenpol? I bought the plans for it when I built my first piet, but decided not to use them. In the meantime I have heard a few rumors about extreme aft C of G problems with the plane. Now one of the guys at the field wants the drawings, but I dont want to sell him something that doesnt al least have a chance of working. Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Finally Back Online
Date: Jan 09, 2000
Hi Guys After about 6 months of not being able to post (I didnt know about HTML e-mail settings) I am finally back on the list. The scout project I had on the go got sold last summer, and I have been humming and hawing around looking for something to hang a soob on, and 3 days ago finally gave in to the urge to build a piet (again) As of now I just pulled the 1st fuse half from the jig, and by next weekend should have the second done. This one is not a true piet OR a true GN-1 (sorry to the purists) but rather a hybrid of the 2--plus scout gear--, with some construction methods from the Bowers Flybaby and the VP-1 thrown in the mix. Fuse is 3/4" square Ash with birch gussets and mahog skin (full lenght). Wing is GN-1 airfoil with mahog/birch spars and router cut ply ribs. Tail is straight piet (spruce). Main gear will be Sky Scout and engine is a Soob EA-82 with a Jim Mylanta redrive and a chin-mount rad. Not exactly following any of the plans, but it should keep it interesting enough that I wont get bored with it. Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: 145-B2 was "EAA Experimenter
Date: Jan 10, 2000
How much did you have to pay for the 145-b2? I have a chance to buy one for my Piet also. Was trying to find a manual and overhaul info. The engine is complete but I need specs for a complete check out. Can anybody help. Greg Yotz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: Torque tube installation
I'm assembling control components into the long fuselage, and have come to realize that with the rear torque tube bearing installed in its proper place at the crossmember underneath the front of the rear seat, and with the torque tube resting in the "V" shaped cutouts under the front seat, the front of the torque tube will get no closer to the floor in the front cockpit than about 2". Plan is to shim the floor with a wedge shaped wood block to make up the difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same problem..... -Bill Beerman Stinson Station Wagon owner / pilot 1/4 partnership long fuse Piet- fuse & tail done, metal fittings and controls in progress. Brodhead attendee 2yrs. running....... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Drag/Antidrag wires
I have to differ with you here, Domenico, it certainly does. The part number on the spools that they have are exactly the same as the spools that Leavens had. Same MS number, same manufacturer and everything. I doubt very much that CT would go through the trouble of changing the lables on the spools when they are not even selling the stuff to the aviation community. It's more likely that they buy the stuff by the ton and get a huge discount. As for inspection, the manufacturer of things like bolts, screws, cables, etc inspect by testing a sample of a given lot. Since the manufacturer has no idea where thier cable will end up, it's very unlikely that there are any different procedures for the stuff that ends up at CT over the stuff that ends up on the shelf at Leavens. Ken On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Domenico Bellissimo wrote: > > Be aware that the Canadian tire cable does not have the cotton (red color) > in the middle of the strands to wick the oil which preserves the true > aircraft cable. Also they don't pay for the cable to be inspected. Basically > you get what you pay for. > > Dom. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
From: Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com>
writes: > > >I'm assembling control components into the long fuselage, and have >come to >realize that with the rear torque tube bearing installed in its proper >place >at the crossmember underneath the front of the rear seat, and with the >torque >tube resting in the "V" shaped cutouts under the front seat, the front >of the >torque tube will get no closer to the floor in the front cockpit than >about 2". Bill I've looked at the plans as well as my control installation and can't figure out how you came to the situation that you're in. The only way I can see the run not being able to attach flat on the floor is if your torque tube is hanging up on the bottom of the pie-shaped cut-outs for the front seat. If that's the case, my suggestion would be to open them up with a large rat-tail file until the torque tube can be installed per the plans. Although I've mounted my torque tube on a 1/8" ply pad on the front, there was clearance without it. Very perplexing!! Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Exactly- there's an interference between where the torque tube needs to be to be flat on the floor in front and the bottom of pie shaped cutouts. (I may have exaggerated a little about '2" above the floor'- I'll have to check to see if it's really that much). Nonetheless, it bothers me that you've not encountered the same thing. I think I mentioned in my first post that I'm 1/4 interest in the project. I'm doing the metalwork, while a friend built the fuse. Maybe one of us missed something.... Are you building the long fuse Piet? My friend convinced me that no change to the torque tube length was required due to the long vs. short fuse change, but maybe that's not true. I'll have to double check. Thanks for the input! -Bill > > I've looked at the plans as well as my control installation and can't > figure out how you came to the situation that you're in. > > The only way I can see the run not being able to attach flat on the floor > is if your torque tube is hanging up on the bottom of the pie-shaped > cut-outs for the front seat. If that's the case, my suggestion would be > to open them up with a large rat-tail file until the torque tube can be > installed per the plans. Although I've mounted my torque tube on a 1/8" > ply pad on the front, there was clearance without it. > > Very perplexing!! > > Larry > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Bill, I've completed that section and mine came out right to print. But I did notice a few things about that. First, when I completed the torque tube with all its welding, there was a slight bend in mine. Secondly, if I recall correctly, the "V" shaped opening in the front seat back bottom to clear the tube, the dimensions were such that there could be some variations. If you look at the pics of all the other projects, you'll see different variations of the hole. I took it that the bottom of the "V" was right down to the ash cross beam , and it worked out fine. There are alot of pics around, but mine is at the aircamper site under http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbefseat1.jpg the block to support the front "bearing" is at an angle to get the flat plane. Walt Evans -----Original Message----- From: William C. Beerman <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com> Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 10:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation > >I'm assembling control components into the long fuselage, and have come to >realize that with the rear torque tube bearing installed in its proper place >at the crossmember underneath the front of the rear seat, and with the torque >tube resting in the "V" shaped cutouts under the front seat, the front of the >torque tube will get no closer to the floor in the front cockpit than about 2". > >Plan is to shim the floor with a wedge shaped wood block to make up the >difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same >problem..... > >-Bill Beerman > Stinson Station Wagon owner / pilot > 1/4 partnership long fuse Piet- > fuse & tail done, metal fittings and controls in progress. > Brodhead attendee 2yrs. running....... > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
fly5k(at)listbot.com
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: Wooden landing gear.
How bout help with your wooden landing gear. I sure could use pictures and explainations too. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBush96589(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: welding&cables
Thanks for the info on the welding rods. What about normalizing a tig weld? Ihave read that some people say it should be done and others say that it actually weakens the weld. Also can any one who has already built their control systems give me a rough guess as to how much cable to buy?I think it was Steve E. that said he used 1/8 7-7 stainless throughout his plane,Ithought I would use the same. Thanks Robert Bush ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2000
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: welding&cables
Their was discussion awhile back on stainless cable. many guys agreed that stainless has a drawback in that it gets brittle and breaks without warning. If you notice one strand broke, the rest are ready to break. whereas a galvanized cable will rust, and when it starts to rust replace it. the rust is an indicator that it is getting old. --- RBush96589(at)aol.com wrote: > RBush96589(at)aol.com > > Thanks for the info on the welding rods. What about > normalizing a tig weld? > Ihave read that some people say it should be done > and others say that it > actually weakens the weld. Also can any one who has > already built their > control systems give me a rough guess as to how much > cable to buy?I think it > was Steve E. that said he used 1/8 7-7 stainless > throughout his > plane,Ithought I would use the same. > > Thanks > > Robert Bush > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "wayne" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Date: Jan 10, 2000
---------- > From: William C. Beerman <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation > Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 12:46 PM > > > > Exactly- there's an interference between where the torque tube needs to > be to be flat on the floor in front and the bottom of pie shaped cutouts. > (I may have exaggerated a little about '2" above the floor'- I'll have Both mine and my friends have the same problem. He mounted the front of his torque tube on a block, I notched out the bottom of my V. Wayne Sippola, Winterpeg sippola(at)escape.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: normalizing tig welds
Date: Jan 10, 2000
The god's honest truth is...I don't know. The fellows who tig weld , from what I hear, normalize their welds. Tig is approved for a/c work, and I don't think that they normalize. I read awhile back that the primary cause for weld failures in a/c are, wrong filler rod,, not enough filler rod, and not normalizing welds after welding. A local "expert" claims that tig leaves a very narrow heat affected zone next to the weld that is subject to failure from fatigue. He also said that gas welding, because of it's wider heat zone does tend to self normalize. As for myself, I am building an all steel tube frame airplane, and did use gas to weld it with mild steel rod, and I did pre heat the weld zone before I welded it, then slowly did remove the heat after welding to keep the welds as soft as possible to keep any cracks out. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
From: Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com>
writes: > > > >Exactly- there's an interference between where the torque tube needs >to >be to be flat on the floor in front and the bottom of pie shaped >cutouts. > My advice still stands..........break out the rat-tail file & make sawdust until the torque tube can mount on the floor in front of the front seat. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2000
Subject: Re: Wooden landing gear.
From: Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com>
> >How bout help with your wooden landing gear. I sure could use >pictures >and explainations too. > >Steve > >Steve W GN-1 builder >IHA #6 > >Don't know beans about GN-1 landing gear but if you had a pietenpol I'd suggest supplemental drawings available from Don Pietenpol. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)accessus.net>
Subject: Re: welding&cables
Date: Jan 10, 2000
God, I hope not! ALL the cables in my 1948 Bellanca are original and stainless. Have never had a problem. All the spokes on my Bicycle are stainless and I have yet to break one in 12 years. Spokes are higher stressed than your control cables. Why would rust tell you that a cable is old? Some area of this country will rust a galvanized cable in months while other places it might take a couple centuries. ALL generalizations are FALSE including this one! Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact! (Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com) -----Original Message----- From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 8:21 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables > >Their was discussion awhile back on stainless cable. >many guys agreed that stainless has a drawback in that >it gets brittle and breaks without warning. If you >notice one strand broke, the rest are ready to break. >whereas a galvanized cable will rust, and when it >starts to rust replace it. the rust is an indicator >that it is getting old. > >--- RBush96589(at)aol.com wrote: >> RBush96589(at)aol.com >> >> Thanks for the info on the welding rods. What about >> normalizing a tig weld? >> Ihave read that some people say it should be done >> and others say that it >> actually weakens the weld. Also can any one who has >> already built their >> control systems give me a rough guess as to how much >> cable to buy?I think it >> was Steve E. that said he used 1/8 7-7 stainless >> throughout his >> plane,Ithought I would use the same. >> >> Thanks >> >> Robert Bush >> >> >> >> through >> >> http://www.matronics.com/archives >> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists >> >> Matronics! >> >> >> >> >> >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Subject: Re: welding&cables
Robert, There was quite a discussion before on welding and whether TIG, MIG, or acetylene was the best. Normalizing was also dicussed. Heli-arc welding (TIG or MIG) is by far the best, but the equipment is very expensive and far beyond the reach of most homebuilders. This is the type of welding used by the various aircraft manufacturers in a production line situation. The width of the weld is the same as in gas welding and increased heat stress problems are not a factor. In fact, the opposite is true. Heat during the heli-arc process is more controlled and focused on the job at hand while allowing the heat in the area around the weld to disapate in a more uniform manner. Warpage, although still present, is not as much a problem with heli-arc. I used to work for Mooney and they did not normalize any of their welds. Normalizing helps to reduce stress in the weld area caused by heat and welding instruction books will tell you that it should be done, but it common practice it is not done. While at Mooney, we never had a weld fail. Another advantage to heli-arc welding is that the welding is done using argon gas which surrounds the arc and keeps out impurities in the air. Whenever you weld, you will introduce foreign particles into the molten metal and some of these can be detrimental to the strength of the finished product. In gas welding, the flame is set in a "nuetralized" form with a soft blue cone over the darker inner flame. This sets the heat at about 5700 or 5800 degrees and will introduce a little carbon into the weld. This is necessary for the strength of the weld and if the flame is too hot (no soft blue cone) you can burn out existing carbon from the weld and weaken it. We used nothing but acetylene welding on our project and I have done all the welding. I'm not a certified welder, but have done a lot of welding over the years and have never had anything break (knock on wood!). Acetylene welding is not all that hard to learn; it just takes a lot of practice. Good welding equipment is very important as the cheaper gear will not let you keep a constant flame -- the soft blue cone will disappear, etc. Forming a good constant puddle of molten steel is critical to insure 100% penetration throughout the weld. I worked for a guy once who had heli-arc equipment and used some rod the he claimed gave a good 90% penetration and that was good enough. It isn't. You want 100% throughout. Selecting the correct rod for whatever type of welding you do is critical. On airplanes, use the copper coated mild steel rod. The copper coating is used only to protect the rod from corrosion, although they will rust if kept a long time in high humidity. I usually use coat hangers when I weld my car tailpipes and mufflers; they work just fine and I've never had a tailpipe break (at the weld anyway). I have used Smith welding equipment in the past and fought it all the way. This is the stuff sold at Wag-Aero and such places. I now have my own set which I bought at a discount tool place in San Antonio and am very happy with it so far. One of my partners who like to buy toys, the latest and greatest, went and bought a Henrob set. I've used this a lot and it really works great once you get used to it, but I wouldn't spend the money on it myself. I paid less than half for my set as he did for the Henrob. I do intend to weld our aluminum fuel tank when we get that far and the Henrod will probably be better for aluminum. Aluminum can be successfully welded using acetylene, but it is certainly more difficult to say the least. As for control cables, we are going to use stainless steel throughout. The 7X7 is OK for straight runs, but use 7X19 for the cables making a sharp bend going over pulleys. 7X19 is much more flexible and that is what it was made for. The galvanized cables can rust from the inside out, showing no signs on the outside. This isn't necessarily usual, but I've seen it happen. During annual inspections, it is important to twist all the cables to check for rust inside rather than just running your hand along, checking for broken strands. Although the aircraft manufacturers will deliver their planes with galvanized cables installed, they offer stainless steel replacement cables as an option. I always encourage my customers to go with the stainless as they last longer. There is also less problem of broken strands going over the pulleys or through fairleads -- at least, that's been my experience. Incidently, in any light plane, a single broken strand of wire in a control cable means a rejected cable and it needs to be replaced. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "wayne" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Corvair prop hub
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Not that I will be needing it for a while, but what are the prop hubs for the corvair made of? I believe Wynne's uses aluminum. I intend to build my own, but I don't see why such a long extension is generally used. Seems to typically be about 3 -4". I think just over an inch to get the prop clear should be fine and keeps the bending moment closer to the main bearings. I suppose the flywheel bolt pattern is just too small a diameter to handle the bending forces. Suggestions? Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Larry, Thats good advice, unless he built his the same as mine, where the "pie" notch comes right down to the ash crossmember. Can't be filing that...Maybe there is another prob. As I posted yesterday, I made mine exactly to the print, and it fits fine. ( My pie comes right to the ash ). walt evans -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com> Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation > > > writes: >> >> >> >>Exactly- there's an interference between where the torque tube needs >>to >>be to be flat on the floor in front and the bottom of pie shaped >>cutouts. >> > >My advice still stands..........break out the rat-tail file & make >sawdust until the torque tube can mount on the floor in front of the >front seat. > >Larry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: normalizing tig welds
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Bob, My experience is that your "expert" is correct. I got a hold of 4130 plate .080 thick to get me started on brackets. Someone had torch cut this piece from a larger piece. After merrily laying out some parts, I went to the band saw ( Do- All) to cut. Even though the pieces didn't get near the flame cut area, I had to continue cutting to separate the plate. 1/4" from the slag area "Zing" , no more teeth. Only to separate the plate was to bend it, and it snapped like glass. This would be just like a tig weld joint...Try it for yourself. My AP mentor always repairs his welding jobs with mild steel rod. ( he has rebuilt more Cub fuselages than I can count). He states that 4130 rod is used when the assy has to heat treated, which is not the case when building normally. If you read the books, they tell you to cool the piece away from drafts, fans etc. But it seems that the more you read, the more critical you get of your work. So when I asked him how you know if the welds aren't brittle, He simply grabbed a file , and ran the edge over the weld. It dug in and cut didn't skim over) and said it was fine. The is no substitute for experience. I love to learn these tricks. I learned gas welding by trying to do as good as him, and probably will never get there. walt evans -----Original Message----- From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: normalizing tig welds > >The god's honest truth is...I don't know. > >The fellows who tig weld , from what I hear, normalize their welds. > >Tig is approved for a/c work, and I don't think that they normalize. > >I read awhile back that the primary cause for weld failures in a/c are, >wrong filler rod,, not enough filler rod, and not normalizing welds after >welding. > >A local "expert" claims that tig leaves a very narrow heat affected zone >next to the weld that is subject to failure from fatigue. He also said that >gas welding, because of it's wider heat zone does tend to self normalize. > >As for myself, I am building an all steel tube frame airplane, and did use >gas to weld it with mild steel rod, and I did pre heat the weld zone before >I welded it, then slowly did remove the heat after welding to keep the welds >as soft as possible to keep any cracks out. > >Bob > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
fly5k(at)listbot.com
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Subject: Soob Engine Mount
I need some pixsinfo of engine mounts for the soob ea-81. Yall have all been so helpful both with my questions and I have learned so much from those you have answerd. Thanks Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: one more thing on torque tube
Date: Jan 11, 2000
One problem I did have on the torque tube....When made per print, the tube assy. would not fit from the rear seat thru under the front seat without hitting the front of the rear seat. Had to make a removable " notch" in the rear seat, to clear the rear end of the tube. walt evans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay and Terri Kurtz" <3slns(at)concentric.net>
Subject: GN-1 pictures.
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Larry,and Steve My name is Jay and I just picked up a gn-1 project that was started by Cecil King from Muskegon Mi.The fuse is steel,and the wings (4) are wood. The plans show the Ariel (biplane) as analternative my phone # is 863 701 0000. I would like to talk with other builders about their projects. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Conoly Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 pictures. Larry, I agree with you 100%.. I am 4 1/2 years into building a GN-1. The plans are garbage. Many, many mistakes in dimensions. Some drawings are to scale, some arent. No real organization to the plans. Pitiful material list. Somehow Grega just jumped in on Pietenpol's design and "improved it" It doesn't really matter now. I've been intimately involved of course with my project and with other Piet projects over the last several years. Mr. Piet built "original" (or did he?- look at the old WWI designs - wood- fabric- cables- skids) and light. Mr. Grega put forth a set of "plans" to adapt the design to utilize parts that in 1960's were as readily available as used 486 Pentiums are now. I agree with you. Lets keep from confusing the two designs. But I try not to be too class-conscious. We can encourage Newbies to build "original". I DO - And I can. But lets remember, people wil ferrete out those $25.00 plans in lieu of $100 plans from Pietenpol. thats a fact of life I did it. Wish I hadn't. But still, to build and fly a homebuilt is the true goal here- regardless of whether it's original, plagiarized, or whatever. Besides, today was a BEAUTIFUL day in south Georgia/North Florida..... and I got to fly a Piet for the second day in a row! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have a great Sunday everybody! Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence V Williams" <lnawms(at)juno.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 pictures. > > > writes: > > > > > >just curious, > >I assume that someone took the pietenpol and made > >enough changes to rename it a GN 1. what are those > >changes or how is it different? > >thanks, del > > > >Del > > John Grega and his thinly disguised attempt to plagarize the > tried-and-true Pietenpol Air Camper is just another fascinating footnote > in homebuilt history. His intentions were probably well-founded but using > the Air Camper's highly recognized outlines and having the audacity to > call it an "Aircamper" seem a little underhanded and dishonest to most of > us in the Pietenpol camp. > > He basically beefed up an airplane that didn't need beefing up in the > first place, devised a way to scavenge parts of a junked Cub to complete > it, slapped the name Aircamper on the resulting craft, and started > selling plans. (Oh, OK there was a little more to it than that, but > that's the bottom line.) > > I have spoken to several people who have bought plans from the classified > section in Sport Aviation believing them to be Mr. Pietenpol's Air Camper > plans only to find out that they had been misled by the bold lettered > "Aircamper" ad. One man had alreay started some initial construction > before he found out his mistake. > > John Grega and his airplane have scores of adherents who are completely > satisfied with their airplanes, but PLEASE.......it's a GN-1 and has > nothing to do with Mr. Pietenpol or his wonderful old design. > > Look for the Pietenpol AIR CAMPER (two words) for the real McCoy. > > You asked..................... > > Larry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Bill,i ended up with a 3/4 "shim under the front torque tube mount,works fine,plenty of clearance,1/2" would have been sufice. Doug Hunt > realize that with the rear torque tube bearing installed in its proper place > at the crossmember underneath the front of the rear seat, and with the torque > tube resting in the "V" shaped cutouts under the front seat, the front of the > torque tube will get no closer to the floor in the front cockpit than about 2". > > Plan is to shim the floor with a wedge shaped wood block to make up the > difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same > problem..... > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair prop hub
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Wayne,my hub was machined from 6061T6,shaft into crank,and spud nut,and washer of 4340. Doug Hunt Alberta ---------- > From: wayne <sippola(at)escape.ca> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair prop hub > Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:24 AM > > > Not that I will be needing it for a while, but what are the prop hubs for > the corvair made of? I believe Wynne's uses aluminum. I intend to build > my own, but I don't see why such a long extension is generally used. Seems > to typically be about 3 -4". I think just over an inch to get the prop > clear should be fine and keeps the bending moment closer to the main > bearings. I suppose the flywheel bolt pattern is just too small a diameter > to handle the bending forces. Suggestions? > Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBush96589(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Subject: welding &cables
Thanks everybody for the input on the welding question. Can any body tell me about how many feet of cable to buy? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric Ingraham" <iflyul(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: welding&cables
Date: Jan 11, 2000
Hi John.... I've just gotten my plans and look forward to starting this project. Thanks for posting one of the best written most informative letters I've seen posted on the web for some time. You answered a lot of questions I was about to ask. Eric >From: nle97(at)juno.com >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:53:32 -0600 > > >Robert, > There was quite a discussion before on welding and whether TIG, >MIG, or >acetylene was the best. Normalizing was also dicussed. > Heli-arc welding (TIG or MIG) is by far the best, but the >equipment is >very expensive and far beyond the reach of most homebuilders. This is >the type of welding used by the various aircraft manufacturers in a >production line situation. The width of the weld is the same as in gas >welding and increased heat stress problems are not a factor. In fact, >the opposite is true. Heat during the heli-arc process is more >controlled and focused on the job at hand while allowing the heat in the >area around the weld to disapate in a more uniform manner. Warpage, >although still present, is not as much a problem with heli-arc. > I used to work for Mooney and they did not normalize any of their >welds. > Normalizing helps to reduce stress in the weld area caused by heat and >welding instruction books will tell you that it should be done, but it >common practice it is not done. While at Mooney, we never had a weld >fail. > Another advantage to heli-arc welding is that the welding is done >using >argon gas which surrounds the arc and keeps out impurities in the air. >Whenever you weld, you will introduce foreign particles into the molten >metal and some of these can be detrimental to the strength of the >finished product. In gas welding, the flame is set in a "nuetralized" >form with a soft blue cone over the darker inner flame. This sets the >heat at about 5700 or 5800 degrees and will introduce a little carbon >into the weld. This is necessary for the strength of the weld and if the >flame is too hot (no soft blue cone) you can burn out existing carbon >from the weld and weaken it. > We used nothing but acetylene welding on our project and I have >done all >the welding. I'm not a certified welder, but have done a lot of welding >over the years and have never had anything break (knock on wood!). >Acetylene welding is not all that hard to learn; it just takes a lot of >practice. Good welding equipment is very important as the cheaper gear >will not let you keep a constant flame -- the soft blue cone will >disappear, etc. Forming a good constant puddle of molten steel is >critical to insure 100% penetration throughout the weld. I worked for a >guy once who had heli-arc equipment and used some rod the he claimed gave >a good 90% penetration and that was good enough. It isn't. You want >100% throughout. Selecting the correct rod for whatever type of welding >you do is critical. On airplanes, use the copper coated mild steel rod. >The copper coating is used only to protect the rod from corrosion, >although they will rust if kept a long time in high humidity. I usually >use coat hangers when I weld my car tailpipes and mufflers; they work >just fine and I've never had a tailpipe break (at the weld anyway). > I have used Smith welding equipment in the past and fought it all >the >way. This is the stuff sold at Wag-Aero and such places. I now have my >own set which I bought at a discount tool place in San Antonio and am >very happy with it so far. One of my partners who like to buy toys, the >latest and greatest, went and bought a Henrob set. I've used this a lot >and it really works great once you get used to it, but I wouldn't spend >the money on it myself. I paid less than half for my set as he did for >the Henrob. I do intend to weld our aluminum fuel tank when we get that >far and the Henrod will probably be better for aluminum. Aluminum can be >successfully welded using acetylene, but it is certainly more difficult >to say the least. > As for control cables, we are going to use stainless steel >throughout. >The 7X7 is OK for straight runs, but use 7X19 for the cables making a >sharp bend going over pulleys. 7X19 is much more flexible and that is >what it was made for. The galvanized cables can rust from the inside >out, showing no signs on the outside. This isn't necessarily usual, but >I've seen it happen. During annual inspections, it is important to twist >all the cables to check for rust inside rather than just running your >hand along, checking for broken strands. Although the aircraft >manufacturers will deliver their planes with galvanized cables installed, >they offer stainless steel replacement cables as an option. I always >encourage my customers to go with the stainless as they last longer. >There is also less problem of broken strands going over the pulleys or >through fairleads -- at least, that's been my experience. Incidently, in >any light plane, a single broken strand of wire in a control cable means >a rejected cable and it needs to be replaced. > > >John Langston >Pipe Creek, TX >nle97(at)juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2000
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
I double checked my torque tube installation last night. 3/4" looks about right. Filing won't help because the pie-shaped plywood cutout is routed out all the way to the wooden V under the seat. Thanks to everyone for all the input! It sounds like there are many ways to interpret the plans. Walt, we have a large removable cutout in the rear seat so we can access the elevetor bellcrank assembly for inspection. Otherwise I'm sure we would have had the same problem on torque tube installation. -Bill > From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation > Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:08:18 -0700 > > > Bill,i ended up with a 3/4 "shim under the front torque tube mount,works > fine,plenty of clearance,1/2" would have been sufice. > Doug Hunt > > > > realize that with the rear torque tube bearing installed in its proper > place > > at the crossmember underneath the front of the rear seat, and with the > torque > > tube resting in the "V" shaped cutouts under the front seat, the front of > the > > torque tube will get no closer to the floor in the front cockpit than > about 2". > > > > Plan is to shim the floor with a wedge shaped wood block to make up the > > difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same > > problem..... > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2000
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Walt, thanks for the info. I look at at your picture, which appears to be a rearward view across the ash cross-member at the landing gear back towards the tail. I did notice two things- the wooden members that make up the Vee at the rear set don't actually come together at the bottom, where the cross-member is. The friend who built our fuse made it so they actually meet. Therein may be the problem! Also, there's a bevel-edged block on the floor between the ash cross-member and the front seat. Is that to support the front of the torque tube? Thanks for the help, -Bill > From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:49:31 -0500 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Status: $$$$ > X-UID: 0000000032 > > > Bill, > I've completed that section and mine came out right to print. But I did > notice a few things about that. First, when I completed the torque tube > with all its welding, there was a slight bend in mine. Secondly, if I > recall correctly, the "V" shaped opening in the front seat back bottom to > clear the tube, the dimensions were such that there could be some > variations. > If you look at the pics of all the other projects, you'll see different > variations of the hole. I took it that the bottom of the "V" was right down > to the ash cross beam , and it worked out fine. > There are alot of pics around, but mine is at the aircamper site under > http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbefseat1.jpg > the block to support the front "bearing" is at an angle to get the flat > plane. > Walt Evans > >Plan is to shim the floor with a wedge shaped wood block to make up the > >difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same > >problem..... > > > >-Bill Beerman > > Stinson Station Wagon owner / pilot > > 1/4 partnership long fuse Piet- > > fuse & tail done, metal fittings and controls in progress. > > Brodhead attendee 2yrs. running....... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Torque tube installation
Date: Jan 12, 2000
Bill, Yeah, the long block is to support the front bearing. Had to raise it slightly to get comfortable clearance in your problem area. Just a suggestion...why don't you split the difference raising under the front and back bearing of the tube? Should be room under the seat, and the control cables go back and up anyway. I had made a double pulley bracket to mount at rear of seat where cables come thru. Seemed to me that the cables would be sawing on the thru holes. walt evans -----Original Message----- From: William C. Beerman <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation > >Walt, thanks for the info. I look at at your picture, which appears to be a >rearward view across the ash cross-member at the landing gear back towards the >tail. I did notice two things- the wooden members that make up the Vee at the >rear set don't actually come together at the bottom, where the cross-member is. >The friend who built our fuse made it so they actually meet. Therein may be >the problem! > >Also, there's a bevel-edged block on the floor between the ash cross-member and >the front seat. Is that to support the front of the torque tube? > >Thanks for the help, >-Bill > >> From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >> To: >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube installation >> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:49:31 -0500 >> Mime-Version: 1.0 >> X-Status: $$$$ >> X-UID: 0000000032 >> >> >> Bill, >> I've completed that section and mine came out right to print. But I did >> notice a few things about that. First, when I completed the torque tube >> with all its welding, there was a slight bend in mine. Secondly, if I >> recall correctly, the "V" shaped opening in the front seat back bottom to >> clear the tube, the dimensions were such that there could be some >> variations. >> If you look at the pics of all the other projects, you'll see different >> variations of the hole. I took it that the bottom of the "V" was right down >> to the ash cross beam , and it worked out fine. >> There are alot of pics around, but mine is at the aircamper site under >> http://www.aircamper.org/users/wevans/wbefseat1.jpg >> the block to support the front "bearing" is at an angle to get the flat >> plane. >> Walt Evans >> >Plan is to shim the floor with a wedge shaped wood block to make up the >> >difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same >> >problem..... >> > >> >-Bill Beerman >> > Stinson Station Wagon owner / pilot >> > 1/4 partnership long fuse Piet- >> > fuse & tail done, metal fittings and controls in progress. >> > Brodhead attendee 2yrs. running....... > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Engines
Engine? Engine? What engine? Okay, just WHAT IS a soob ea-81 engine??? It has appeared in several lists and no one has questioned it so it seems it is not a typo-error. Got any ideas? All I come up with is; Sun Oh Oa Beach eeeaaa-81 (all said with a Swedish accent). Beats me, planes I'm familiar with, engines are another thing. Rodger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2000
From: Dan Exstrom <exstromb(at)onlinemac.com>
Subject: Re: Engines
<childsway@indian-creek.net> > >Engine? Engine? What engine? > >Okay, just WHAT IS a soob ea-81 engine??? Subaru automotive engine, model EA-81. Currently one of the more popular auto conversions for x aircraft installation. Cost is reasonable, and Stratus in Washington reportedly does a good conversion job for aircraft use. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Engines
Soob is a nic-name for Subaru. The EA-81 is the model number for the engine that was the mainstay of the Subaru fleet from the late 70's until the EA-82 mosel in the late 80's. The EA-81 is a 1.8 liter, aluminum cased water cooled, horizontally opposed (boxer style), pushrod, 8 valve engine capable of 75-100 hp depending on the specific model. Some had turbo chargers making them a little more powerful. There is also a smaller 1.6 liter version called the EA-71. The EA-82 was introduced with dual OHC and produced more power again. Later the EJ-22 (2.2 l) and EJ-33 (3.3 l)were introduced with more hp and electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition, etc. These little engines are very reliable in Subarus and have been successfully converted to aircraft use. They are to homebuilding what the VW engine was in the 70's, an inexpensive alternative to a Cont or Lyc. However, they really require a Prop Speed Reduction Unit (PSRU) to work well. Several companies like NSI, Stratus, etc build turn-key Soob packages for a number of kitplanes like the Kitfox and Avids. Hope this helps, Ken On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Rodger & Betty wrote: > > Engine? Engine? What engine? > > Okay, just WHAT IS a soob ea-81 engine??? It has appeared in several > lists and no one has questioned it so it seems it is not a typo-error. > Got any ideas? > > All I come up with is; Sun Oh Oa Beach eeeaaa-81 (all said with a > Swedish accent). > > Beats me, planes I'm familiar with, engines are another thing. > > Rodger > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Ref: Engines
Now that makes perfect sense, Subaru, yes, I've heard that one a time or two. Thanks guys, I knew I could count on you all. Rodger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Engines
Date: Jan 13, 2000
Ya might want to look at the EA-82... Its heavier (about 255+ installed) and has belt drive cams, but will do about 65-70 hp direct drive @ 300-322 and most of the other homebuilders dont want them, beacause they are heavy and belt-drive cam!!! which means they are cheap ($125 for mine) and work just fine on the old "ford 'a'. 't'/ chevy 4 ect type planes. in fact, it will probably work better than an EA-81, because the weight is closer (but still lighter) than the original motors. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engines > >Soob is a nic-name for Subaru. The EA-81 is the model number for the >engine that was the mainstay of the Subaru fleet from the late 70's until >the EA-82 mosel in the late 80's. The EA-81 is a 1.8 liter, aluminum cased >water cooled, horizontally opposed (boxer style), pushrod, 8 valve engine >capable of 75-100 hp depending on the specific model. Some had turbo >chargers making them a little more powerful. There is also a smaller 1.6 >liter version called the EA-71. The EA-82 was introduced with dual OHC and >produced more power again. Later the EJ-22 (2.2 l) and EJ-33 (3.3 l)were >introduced with more hp and electronic fuel injection, electronic >ignition, etc. > >These little engines are very reliable in Subarus and have been >successfully converted to aircraft use. They are to homebuilding what the >VW engine was in the 70's, an inexpensive alternative to a Cont or Lyc. >However, they really require a Prop Speed Reduction Unit (PSRU) to work >well. > >Several companies like NSI, Stratus, etc build turn-key Soob packages for >a number of kitplanes like the Kitfox and Avids. > >Hope this helps, >Ken > >On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Rodger & Betty wrote: > <childsway@indian-creek.net> >> >> Engine? Engine? What engine? >> >> Okay, just WHAT IS a soob ea-81 engine??? It has appeared in several >> lists and no one has questioned it so it seems it is not a typo-error. >> Got any ideas? >> >> All I come up with is; Sun Oh Oa Beach eeeaaa-81 (all said with a >> Swedish accent). >> >> Beats me, planes I'm familiar with, engines are another thing. >> >> Rodger >> >> >> >> >> > >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) >Calgary, Alberta, Canada >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair prop hub
Date: Jan 13, 2000
Wayne, Sorry I haven't had the time yet to make you a drawing, but I promise you I will. I made my prop hub out of 4130. I paid for one to be made to my specs, including the prop shaft. Those drawings I'm sure I have somewhere, I'll dig them out and send them to you. I personally would not use alum. Yes you can save weight but the corvair needs the weight there to help with the fly wheel effect, even though it is low effect being so close to the center. Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 13, 2000
Subject: Graham.
I need so info on the sizes of the tubing,diameter,thickness/rivit type&gusset,thickness,size/ you use in your Newport.Also do you think I can build my GN using the wood/tube plan?? Or should I reenforce some areas. Thanks Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com>
Subject: Re: Drag/Antidrag wires
Date: Jan 13, 2000
Ken, You re probably right. I purchased some, but only used it where it would be out of the weather. Like I said one of the differences is the missing cotton to wick the oil through the strands. I don't know why the P/N is the same, but on the wire I purchased from leavens the fibre was red in color, and missing from Cdn. Tires'. Regards, Dom. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wkoucky(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 13, 2000
Subject: Re: tenpol-List:Corvair engine mount
I am building a Flybaby with a corvair. I was wondering if you guys had a copy of the drawing for a mount. William Koucky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Soob engine mount
Date: Jan 13, 2000
I think it was on this list some one wanted an engine mount plan/info for EA-81 SOOB ? Try May 1998 issue of EAA Experimenter magazine. It's on page 12. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
fly5k(at)listbot.com
Date: Jan 14, 2000
Subject: 4130 sources.
I want to find the best/cheapest 4130 tubing source I can. I know we have talked about this before but not enough info on 4130 was posted. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 4130 sources.
Date: Jan 14, 2000
Steve, No doubt about it...Dillsburg Aeroplane Works! In Pa. Call for free price list 717-432-4589 Their list is mainly just listed by mil. #'s. But if you have a AS&S catalog, or similar, you can look up the description, and save alot, and get great service. My second project with them. Get all my tubing and most hardware with them. walt evans -----Original Message----- From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; fly5k(at)listbot.com Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 7:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 sources. > >I want to find the best/cheapest 4130 tubing source I can. I know we have >talked about this before but not enough info on 4130 was posted. > >Steve > >Steve W GN-1 builder >IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 4130 sources.
Date: Jan 14, 2000
-----Original Message----- From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> pietbuilderoldplane(at)listbot.com ; fly5k(at)listbot.com Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 sources. >Steve, > No doubt about it...Dillsburg Aeroplane Works! > In Pa. Call for free price list >717-432-4589 >Their list is mainly just listed by mil. #'s. But if you have a AS&S >catalog, or similar, you can look up the description, and save alot, and get >great service. My second project with them. Get all my tubing and most >hardware with them. >walt evans >-----Original Message----- >From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> >To: pietbuilderoldplane(at)listbot.com ; >pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; >fly5k(at)listbot.com >Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 7:28 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 sources. > > >> >>I want to find the best/cheapest 4130 tubing source I can. I know we have >>talked about this before but not enough info on 4130 was posted. >> >>Steve >> >>Steve W GN-1 builder >>IHA #6 >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Date: Jan 15, 2000
Subject: 1999 List of Contributors #2!
Dear Listers, Below is the final List of Contributors for 1999 as promised. Again, I would like to thank everyone that made a generous contribution in 1999 to support the continued operation of these email Lists. Your support directly makes the quality and quantity of this service possible. Thank you! Matt Dralle EMail List Administrator RV-4 Builder, #1763 - N442RV Adamson, Arden Allender, Patrick Anonymous from MN Asher, M.E. Baxter, Rob Bell, Doug Bendure, Ryan Bergh, David Berrie, Robert Blake, J.I. Boucher, Michel Bragg, Medford Briegleb, Ross Brietigam, Charles Broomell, Glenn Brusilow, Michael Chatham, Robert Clary, Buck Coats, Lonnie Cook, Craig - Golf Instruments Co. Cooper, James Cribb, William Jr. Crosby, Harry Dane, Bill Von Dziewiontkoski, Bob Ellenberger, Mike Embree, Roger Faatz, Mitch Fasching, John Gibbons, Robert Glauser, David Gold, Andy -Builder's Bookstore 10% Gregory, Steve Grenier, Raymond Guarino, Michael H., Harold - E.P.M.AV Corp Hale, Brian Hunt, Wallace Johnston, Leroy Jordon, Don Killion, Clay Klingmuller, Dr. L.M. Magaw, David Mains, Ralph Maltby, Michael Martin, Cliff - Martin Metal Fab Mazataud, Hyun Sook McBride, Duncan McDonald, James Mendenhall, Elbie - E.M Aviation Mitchell, Duane Morley, Harold Peck, Phil Pessel, Garnett Rodebush, James Ross, Jonathan Schmidt, John Scully, William Smith, Steven Spence, Stephen Triff, Wes Wagoner, Richard Weaver, Brian Wiegenstein, John Wiley, Robert Wilson, Donald -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 15, 2000
Subject: fabric covering
With all the recent talk about dope and fabric and what was used to paint the various projects, I noticed that everyone had used dacron. Has anyone out there used any unbleached muslin that can be obtained from Sears? This is the same as grade A cotton, just not certified. I have a friend who is covering his Tailwind with this stuff and am just wondering if any other Piet builders have tried it or not? Ceconite or dacron has been the rage for years, but when I owned a dope and fabric shop many years ago most of the palnes I recovered were old Tri-Pacer's with original Grade A at least 17 years old. I've known of several Ceconite jobs that didn't last ten years -- usually on Citabrias for some reason. I believe it was because of all the sharp angles (maybe). Anyway, just curious. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re: Like your site.
Date: Jan 15, 2000
Hi Steve : Sorry I didnt get back, been really busy. I'll try to post some more pics soon. My rib jig is really ragged out. After 28 ribs the jig blocks are just really loose and rounded. Also the paper pattern I stapled to it has gotten torn off in several places. Since its a good Idea to keep the jig handy (for repairs etc) I would suggest you build one and not use anyone else's. Shouldn't take more than 4 to 6 hours total to build one. AND ITS Yours! My gear are just by the plans. I would suggest using springs instead of bungees though. The wheels and tires I have are actually from a J-3 cub. Dont use those. Get a set of 8:00 x 6:00 tires and order a set of 6:00 brakes/wheels. Can get them form AS&S or Wicks. You;ll be glad you went ther instead of the old Cub stuff. I've seen your posts a LOT. Have you started construction yet??? How far along are you??? I'm not seein many Piet posts any more. Are ya'll still out there?? Well, gotta go back to the shop. Just on break right now. See Ya. Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "vistin" <vistin(at)mail.surfree.com.criticalpath.net> Subject: Like your site. > I really did enjoy looking at your project. I would like omre pictures > though and if you still have your rib jig. If you do Could I borrow it? > By the way, I also like your landing gear. I plan on building mine too. > Do you know of anyone with wheels and tires like you have? I hope to > find some that arent so expensive. > > P.S. I am the person that has the BuildinGN1 email site running. > > > Thanks > Steve > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Date: Jan 16, 2000
Subject: Confusion Over "List of Contributors"...
Hi Listers, I'm really sorry for the confusion over the most recent posting of the List of Contributors #2. List #2 contained only the contributor names *since* the List #1 was posted. So, if you weren't on List #2, you were likely on List #1. Below are URLs to each of the LOC #x postings. Again, sorry for the confusion. I should have made it more clear in the verbiage. Thanks to everyone, Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ============================= LOC #1 and #2 ================================ List of Contributors #1 - 1999 ------------------------------ http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO List of Contributors #2 - 1999 ------------------------------ http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO ============================================================================ -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2000
From: Matt Dralle 925-606-1001 <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: (Whoops) Confusion Over "List of Contributors"...
> >Okay, here are the *real* URLs. Sorry... > > >Matt Dralle >Email List Admin. > > >============================= LOC #1 and #2 ================================ > > > List of Contributors #1 - 1999 > ------------------------------ > > >http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_ >of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO > > > List of Contributors #2 - 1999 > ------------------------------ > > >http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=53146?KEYS=list_ >of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=YES > > >============================================================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Date: Jan 16, 2000
Subject: Re: (No, Really - Here are the URLs) Confusion Over "List
of Contributors"... Geeze, I can't seem to type today. Here are the *real*, *REAL* URLs. Sorry for so many posts... Ack Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ============================= LOC #1 and #2 ================================ List of Contributors #1 - 1999 ------------------------------ http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO List of Contributors #2 - 1999 ------------------------------ http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=53146?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO ============================================================================ -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: C-FAUK (No, I am not swaering at anybody )
Date: Jan 16, 2000
Does anyone know if Brian Kenny (C-FAUK, based at Hamilton) has e-mail? I was going through a bunch of old Sport Aviations, and found one with a picture and bit of a write-up on his plane he might like to have. Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2000
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: welding
listening to the welding posts. I am hearing so many different things that I'm still not absolutely sure what is the best method, if there is a best method. so this is the tentitive conclusion that I've arrived at. I've had a few parts wire feed welded and they are soft enough to file. so they should be good, so I'm not going to "normalize" them, which Is the same as "annealing" (bringing back to a soft state). I am purchasing the motor mt from william wynn so I don't have to worry about that falling apart. some of the real light guage metal work I plan to silver solder. comments? del Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: welding
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Del: Normalizing is not the same as annealing. Annealing is, as you state, removing the heat treatment and bringing the material back to a soft state. This is usually applied to aluminum, which must be annealed before any complex forming. Normalizing is heating an entire part or sometimes just the area around a weld to equalize the stresses in the part which are created by welding, bending, etc. As for being a "best" way to do it, it just depends on what you (or the welder) is most comfortable with. Personally, I like oxy-acetylene because it is less expensive to equip yourself, easier to learn to do, and, to some extent, more forgiving of small errors. (BTW, I agree with the earlier post, 4130 rod is not the best to use for aircraft welding with gas, use mild steel rods) Because oxy-acet heats up a larger area while welding than the various electric arc welders, normalizing is not always needed. Also, it is better if you need to weld and form (bend) a part as you go (because it heats up so large an area), although I can't think of a Piet fitting that would fit this description. Arc welding (MIG or TIG, etc) is sometimes an advantage simply because it does NOT heat a large area so that if you are welding a particularly thick part, you do not have to wait until you heat up the entire part. I know this has not cleared up your question. It really all depends on what you have access to and what you are comfortable with. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Walter Allen" <overalles(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wing attach points.
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Steve: I have a full set of 3 piece wing attach brackets that I bought at Oshkosh adventure 99. They have some damage, but they made excellent patterns for me. contact me if you are interested. Walter >From: vistin(at)juno.com >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com, fly5k(at)listbot.com, >Piet_Builder(at)listbot.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing attach points. >Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:25 -0600 > > >I am curious about the wing attach points/straps used on the Piets three >piece wing configuration. Is the piece used aprox 12" long and uses three >bolts through the front/rear spar? Or is it a plate type of mount. Is the >spar reenforced with 1/16th ply or what. > >Steve > >Steve W GN-1 builder >IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Subject: Re: Wing attach points.
Walter: I am interested so how do we need to do this. My snail is Steve Williamson 114 Pleasant st Brandon, Ms 39042 Or just let me know what you can do. Steve writes: > > > Steve: > I have a full set of 3 piece wing attach brackets that I bought at > Oshkosh > adventure 99. They have some damage, but they made excellent > patterns for > me. contact me if you are interested. > Walter > > > >From: vistin(at)juno.com > >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com, fly5k(at)listbot.com, > >Piet_Builder(at)listbot.com > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing attach points. > >Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:25 -0600 > > > > > >I am curious about the wing attach points/straps used on the Piets > three > >piece wing configuration. Is the piece used aprox 12" long and uses > three > >bolts through the front/rear spar? Or is it a plate type of mount. > Is the > >spar reenforced with 1/16th ply or what. > > > >Steve > > > >Steve W GN-1 builder > >IHA #6 > > > > > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Subject: Steves fabric.
Can yall tell me what kind of fabric Steve Eldredge used to cover his aircamper?? Thanks Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Patcoolnet(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Subject: (no subject)
Would the person who is making up a list of registered Pietenpols in the US--you said had given some out at Broadhead, etc.--please contact me at my daughter's email address. I would like to buy a copy of the updated list from you. Thank you, Frank Cooley patcoolnet(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Subject: Steves paint.
Also I want the king/brand of paint Steve Eldgridge used on his plane too. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Steves fabric.
Date: Jan 18, 2000
I'm still here. I used the 1.7oz generic dacron from As&S. It was about $3.65 a yard. I used the generic tapes, and poly fiber products to glue it down. rib stitching was with round cord, not flat. Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steves fabric. Can yall tell me what kind of fabric Steve Eldredge used to cover his aircamper?? Thanks Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2000
From: Jerry Bray <jbbray(at)ldd.net>
Subject: Re: Steves fabric.
You can contact Steve at steve(at)byu.edu Jerry vistin(at)juno.com wrote: > > Can yall tell me what kind of fabric Steve Eldredge used to cover his > aircamper?? > > Thanks > Steve > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com>
Subject: Re: C-FAUK (No, I am not swaering at anybody )
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Hi, Try bkenney@petro-canada.ca I'm sure he already has the article. I'm not sure what his home e-mail address is though. Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: C-FAUK (No, I am not swaering at anybody )
Date: Jan 18, 2000
Thanks Dominic I got an e-mail from him today, and will give him a call next time I am back in Hamilton. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Domenico Bellissimo <adbell(at)yesic.com> Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 10:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-FAUK (No, I am not swaering at anybody ) > >Hi, >Try bkenney@petro-canada.ca >I'm sure he already has the article. I'm not sure what his home e-mail >address is though. > >Domenic > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: welding
Date: Jan 18, 2000
A year or so ago I read an article about an airplane called a Longster. The origonal way to build was not to weld the tubing at all. Instead, they built it with sheet steel gussets, brazed to the tubing. From what I hear, brazing is no longer acceptable for a/c use, because of a problem with dissimilar metals, and electric corrosion. If you silvar soder, you may run into the same problem, and a silve sodered part may not be considered air worthy. Just something to think about I really don't know. Bob >From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: piet aircamper >Subject: Pietenpol-List: welding >Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:50:39 -0800 (PST) > > > listening to the welding posts. I am hearing so >many different things that I'm still not absolutely >sure what is the best method, if there is a best >method. > so this is the tentitive conclusion that I've >arrived at. I've had a few parts wire feed welded and >they are soft enough to file. so they should be good, >so I'm not going to "normalize" them, which Is the >same as "annealing" (bringing back to a soft state). I >am purchasing the motor mt from william wynn so I >don't have to worry about that falling apart. some of >the real light guage metal work I plan to silver >solder. >comments? > >del >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Steves paint.
Date: Jan 19, 2000
I have posted tons about my painting process, and answered many good questions that I would surely forget to include it I tried to go through it all again. Check the Archives on matts site for the info using Latex as the search word. I'd be happy to explain anything that comes up as questions. The short of it is that I used plain ol house paint applied with brush, rollers and an airless gun. It came out fine, but not award winning for only a couple hundred dollars. I would go with a automotive finish or straight Randolf or Polyfiber product next time to get the gloss for a more modern airframe, but for the pietenpol that is to look period 30's it is entirely acceptable and looks authentic. It is easy to touch up, does not crack (if you keep the buildup thin) and is UV and weather proof. No problems with gas either. Steve e. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steves paint. Also I want the king/brand of paint Steve Eldgridge used on his plane too. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Subject: Re: Steves fabric.
Steve: Please tell me how much fabric you wouned up using. Steve > > I'm still here. I used the 1.7oz generic dacron from As&S. It was > about > $3.65 a yard. I used the generic tapes, and poly fiber products to > glue it > down. rib stitching was with round cord, not flat. > > Steve E. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > vistin(at)juno.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 3:12 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steves fabric. > > > > Can yall tell me what kind of fabric Steve Eldredge used to cover > his > aircamper?? > > Thanks > Steve > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Steves fabric.
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Hmmm. That is a harder question. I started the rudder with some leftovers from another project and ordered fabric, tapes, and other supplies at least twice. I think I ended up using just under 30 yards of 60" fabric. Didn't keep track of how much of each size of tape, but 2" was the most common. Rough guess would be 4-5 rolls of 2", 1-2 rolls of 1", 1-2 rolls of 3" and a roll of 4" for the LE. Murphy got the best of me several times supplies wise, when I'd just run out near the end of the job. Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steves fabric. Steve: Please tell me how much fabric you wouned up using. Steve > > I'm still here. I used the 1.7oz generic dacron from As&S. It was > about > $3.65 a yard. I used the generic tapes, and poly fiber products to > glue it > down. rib stitching was with round cord, not flat. > > Steve E. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > vistin(at)juno.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 3:12 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steves fabric. > > > > Can yall tell me what kind of fabric Steve Eldredge used to cover > his > aircamper?? > > Thanks > Steve > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Subject: Wing rib.
Can yall tell me how much a "Douglas Fir" wing rib weighs? Has anyone cut there ribs out of ply and how much do they weigh. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Wing rib.
Date: Jan 19, 2000
I think mine weighed about 8oz, Dunno on the plywood version. Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. Can yall tell me how much a "Douglas Fir" wing rib weighs? Has anyone cut there ribs out of ply and how much do they weigh. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Subject: Re: Wing rib.
Steve: You made them out of Doug Fir then?? Hmm, that seems a good way to go then. The built up ribs are better in that if you (or I) bump something we dont have to replace the whole wing (in using ply ribs) all we have to do is open up the broken area and repair the broken rib's n sew/glue it backup. Sounds kinda like Dr stuff HUH! Steve > > I think mine weighed about 8oz, Dunno on the plywood version. > > Steve E. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > vistin(at)juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:39 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. > > > > Can yall tell me how much a "Douglas Fir" wing rib weighs? Has > anyone cut > there ribs out of ply and how much do they weigh. > > Steve > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Wing rib.
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Yep the whole plane has narry a piece of spruce in it. I figure it cost me less than 8lbs to use Doug fir. I did shed 16lbs by routing the 1" spars. total weight with engine was 626llbs. Steve e. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. Steve: You made them out of Doug Fir then?? Hmm, that seems a good way to go then. The built up ribs are better in that if you (or I) bump something we dont have to replace the whole wing (in using ply ribs) all we have to do is open up the broken area and repair the broken rib's n sew/glue it backup. Sounds kinda like Dr stuff HUH! Steve > > I think mine weighed about 8oz, Dunno on the plywood version. > > Steve E. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > vistin(at)juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:39 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. > > > > Can yall tell me how much a "Douglas Fir" wing rib weighs? Has > anyone cut > there ribs out of ply and how much do they weigh. > > Steve > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Subject: Re: Wing rib.
Steve: Did you use 1" longerons or did you cut them according to the weight/stringth difference. Did you build all the metal fittings to plans or did you save weight here too. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Wing rib.
Date: Jan 19, 2000
I used the plans dimentions everywhere, no adjusting for strength/weight. All fittings are to the plans as well. Stevee -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. Steve: Did you use 1" longerons or did you cut them according to the weight/stringth difference. Did you build all the metal fittings to plans or did you save weight here too. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Subject: Re: Wing rib.
Steve: Didnt you use some extruded aluminum you got in a chair factory? I would like info on how you attached them to the wing/fuse. and where can I get some of this material. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 19, 2000
Subject: Re: Wing rib.
Steve: Please give me your website so I can see your plane. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fir Piet
Date: Jan 20, 2000
All, If Steve's 100% fir Piet weighs 630lbs. Take away 200lbs for engine, 30 lbs for covering, instruments, hardware, etc. should leave you with a wood airframe at about 400lbs. Assuming that fir is 25% heavier than spruce (Wood Book), a comparable airframe in spruce would weigh in at about 300lbs. I'm becoming suspicious about the 25% heavier figure! Comments, anyone? Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Dont't forget the plywood weight. It's not affected by spruce/fir weight. Ken. On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Joe Krzes wrote: > > All, > If Steve's 100% fir Piet weighs 630lbs. Take away 200lbs for engine, 30 > lbs for covering, instruments, hardware, etc. should leave you with a wood > airframe at about 400lbs. Assuming that fir is 25% heavier than spruce > (Wood Book), a comparable airframe in spruce would weigh in at about 300lbs. > I'm becoming suspicious about the 25% heavier figure! > Comments, anyone? > > Joe > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Experimenter...Was Wing rib.
So, should that have been item #8: use Doug Fir rather than Sitka Spruce! Now, for those who don't know what I'm talking about, please turn to page 40 of the January, 2000 Experimenter. There you will find a very excellent article writen by none other than Mr. Steve Eldredge! Great article Steve! For those who don't recieve Experimenter, it's well worth the money (I think it's only $12 or $15 per year!). Over the last couple of months, it shold have been renamed to the Pietenpoller with the number of articles on this plane. There are 2 articles in this issue alone and there was a cover article a couple of months ago. Anyway, I didn't see any other mention of this article on the list (really suprising as we generally get our EAA publications about 2-3 weeks after you guys in the states) and figured some mention was certainly due. Congratulations on being Published, Steve Ken On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Yep the whole plane has narry a piece of spruce in it. I figure it cost me > less than 8lbs to use Doug fir. I did shed 16lbs by routing the 1" spars. > total weight with engine was 626llbs. > > Steve e. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > vistin(at)juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 3:24 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. > > > > Steve: > You made them out of Doug Fir then?? Hmm, that seems a good way to go > then. The built up ribs are better in that if you (or I) bump something > we dont have to replace the whole wing (in using ply ribs) all we have to > do is open up the broken area and repair the broken rib's n sew/glue it > backup. Sounds kinda like Dr stuff HUH! > > Steve > > > > > I think mine weighed about 8oz, Dunno on the plywood version. > > > > Steve E. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > > vistin(at)juno.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:39 PM > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. > > > > > > > > Can yall tell me how much a "Douglas Fir" wing rib weighs? Has > > anyone cut > > there ribs out of ply and how much do they weigh. > > > > Steve > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder > > IHA #6 > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2000
From: Dick Nelsen <richard.nelsen(at)sdl.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Joe Krzes wrote: > > All, > If Steve's 100% fir Piet weighs 630lbs. Take away 200lbs for engine, 30 > lbs for covering, instruments, hardware, etc. should leave you with a wood > airframe at about 400lbs. Assuming that fir is 25% heavier than spruce > (Wood Book), a comparable airframe in spruce would weigh in at about 300lbs. > I'm becoming suspicious about the 25% heavier figure! > Comments, anyone? > > Joe > Joe, I believe your a little high regarding the weight of Douglas Fir to Sitka Spruce. My reference material puts it closer to 15% difference. Spruce 28 lbs/ft 3 Doug Fir 33 lbs/ft 3 The engine is closer to 165lbs less prop. Just thought I would comment. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fir
Date: Jan 20, 2000
All, Thanks for the responses. This list is still the best piet building resource. Also, I'm glad that Ken brought up the article in Experimenter. Really enjoyed reading about Steve's build! I understand there are more Piet articles to come in either Experimenter or SA. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)accessus.net>
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Date: Jan 20, 2000
You haven't taken all the hardware out like wheels, seats, etc. Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact! (Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com) -----Original Message----- From: Joe Krzes <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fir Piet > >All, > If Steve's 100% fir Piet weighs 630lbs. Take away 200lbs for engine, 30 >lbs for covering, instruments, hardware, etc. should leave you with a wood >airframe at about 400lbs. Assuming that fir is 25% heavier than spruce >(Wood Book), a comparable airframe in spruce would weigh in at about 300lbs. >I'm becoming suspicious about the 25% heavier figure! >Comments, anyone? > >Joe > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Experimenter...Was Wing rib.
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Thanks for the kudo's it is kind of neat to see the article. I hadn't been a subscriber, but now I am. I should have said something about using spruce, and now that you mention it I am surprised that I didn't! Duh.... Judging from the other articles I would agree that it is a great deal and would suggest others subscribe. The editor Mary Jones is great to work with and is excited about affordable flying machines. Just my $.02 Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Beanlands Subject: Pietenpol-List: Experimenter...Was Wing rib. So, should that have been item #8: use Doug Fir rather than Sitka Spruce! Now, for those who don't know what I'm talking about, please turn to page 40 of the January, 2000 Experimenter. There you will find a very excellent article writen by none other than Mr. Steve Eldredge! Great article Steve! For those who don't recieve Experimenter, it's well worth the money (I think it's only $12 or $15 per year!). Over the last couple of months, it shold have been renamed to the Pietenpoller with the number of articles on this plane. There are 2 articles in this issue alone and there was a cover article a couple of months ago. Anyway, I didn't see any other mention of this article on the list (really suprising as we generally get our EAA publications about 2-3 weeks after you guys in the states) and figured some mention was certainly due. Congratulations on being Published, Steve Ken On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Steve Eldredge wrote: > > Yep the whole plane has narry a piece of spruce in it. I figure it cost me > less than 8lbs to use Doug fir. I did shed 16lbs by routing the 1" spars. > total weight with engine was 626llbs. > > Steve e. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > vistin(at)juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 3:24 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. > > > > Steve: > You made them out of Doug Fir then?? Hmm, that seems a good way to go > then. The built up ribs are better in that if you (or I) bump something > we dont have to replace the whole wing (in using ply ribs) all we have to > do is open up the broken area and repair the broken rib's n sew/glue it > backup. Sounds kinda like Dr stuff HUH! > > Steve > > > > > I think mine weighed about 8oz, Dunno on the plywood version. > > > > Steve E. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > > vistin(at)juno.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:39 PM > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. > > > > > > > > Can yall tell me how much a "Douglas Fir" wing rib weighs? Has > > anyone cut > > there ribs out of ply and how much do they weigh. > > > > Steve > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder > > IHA #6 > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Wing rib.
Date: Jan 20, 2000
I have tried to get more of that material myself. Unsuccessful since it was remnants when I got it the first time. I changed machines and my website is down at the moment, but I'll try and ressurect it. It will be found at http:\\steve.byu.edu when it is back. I'll let you know. If you dig around on the www.pietenpol.org site you will see many images of my plane. It is green and white, with a big block "E" on the rudder and "AirCamper" on the side. Steve E. Nx7229R -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of vistin(at)juno.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib. Steve: Didnt you use some extruded aluminum you got in a chair factory? I would like info on how you attached them to the wing/fuse. and where can I get some of this material. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Fir Piet
Date: Jan 20, 2000
I doubt just the wood in the plane weighs 400lbs. My guess is that it is more like 225lbs. I didn't weigh it, but It just isn't that heavy. I could move the wing panels by myself until they were covered and they became to hard to handle, and the fuse is only about 70lbs naked. What adds up is the engine and mount, control system, LANDING GEAR, Struts and braces and fittings, instruments, cowling, fuel tank and plumbage, covering, paint, wood varnish, hardware, etc... So 15% (if it is that much) of 225 is 30lbs or so. My guess is that the difference is less than that, since we are still talking plywood, glue, and fasteners (nails ~1.5lbs). I plan on building all my future planes with DF unless I'm given a load of spruce. Probably more than you wanted to know. Steve E. Provo, UT -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fir Piet Dont't forget the plywood weight. It's not affected by spruce/fir weight. Ken. On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Joe Krzes wrote: > > All, > If Steve's 100% fir Piet weighs 630lbs. Take away 200lbs for engine, 30 > lbs for covering, instruments, hardware, etc. should leave you with a wood > airframe at about 400lbs. Assuming that fir is 25% heavier than spruce > (Wood Book), a comparable airframe in spruce would weigh in at about 300lbs. > I'm becoming suspicious about the 25% heavier figure! > Comments, anyone? > > Joe > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: How much does a Piet weigh?
I'm worried folks, if Steve's plane weights what he said it does, it may need a R-R Merlin V-12 to get it off the ground. Really now, 6261 lbs IS a bit much (see below, =;) look closely to how he put it)! Me? I hoping for somewhere between 6~700 at the most. But D-Fir is a good wood to use, about 11% heavier than spruce but about 38~46% stronger. Also cheaper too! Rodger One piece wing'd Piet in progress On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Steve Eldredge wrote: Yep the whole plane has narry a piece of spruce in it. I figure it cost me less than 8lbs to use Doug fir. I did shed 16lbs by routing the 1" spars. total weight with engine was 626llbs.(sic) Steve e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fir Piet
Date: Jan 20, 2000
That's EXACTLY what I wanted to know. Thanks, Joe >From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> > >I doubt just the wood in the plane weighs 400lbs. My guess is that it is >more like 225lbs. I didn't weigh it, but It just isn't that heavy. I >could >move the wing panels by myself until they were covered and they became to >hard to handle, and the fuse is only about 70lbs naked. What adds up is >the >engine and mount, control system, LANDING GEAR, Struts and braces and >fittings, instruments, cowling, fuel tank and plumbage, covering, paint, >wood varnish, hardware, etc... > >So 15% (if it is that much) of 225 is 30lbs or so. My guess is that the >difference is less than that, since we are still talking plywood, glue, and >fasteners (nails ~1.5lbs). I plan on building all my future planes with DF >unless I'm given a load of spruce. > >Probably more than you wanted to know. > >Steve E. >Provo, UT > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet aircamper" , "piet" , "5k"
Subject: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the gutter!!!!! I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an angle and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless absolutly neccisary). Anybody got a third idea?????? Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Mike, I was looking at some Ragwing plans and they suggest a third, pie shaped piece, same length as the side trussing, glued and clamped in the pie shaped void. Now finding that angle... Joe >The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an >angle >and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > >The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied >together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes >in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless >absolutly >neccisary). > >Anybody got a third idea?????? > >Mike >Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >The more money you throw at them, >the faster they fly. > >IHA 110 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se>
Subject: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Hi Mike, Make it light. Particularly if you are planning on using anything other than the marvelous pile of ballast called a Model A. Piets are notoriously tail-heavy, so an ounce saved at the tail post is equivalent to a pound saved in the cockpit. Perhaps you can make a scarf joint sander like is shown in the EAA Wood aircraft construction techniques book to put the correct angle on the wood. Don't know, haven't gotten that far myself. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Lund [SMTP:crafters(at)elgin.net] > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:55 PM > To: ragwing; piet aircamper; piet; 5k > Subject: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > > Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse > sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the > gutter!!!!! > > I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. > > The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an > angle > and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > > The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied > together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes > in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless > absolutly > neccisary). > > Anybody got a third idea?????? > > Mike > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > The more money you throw at them, > the faster they fly. > > IHA 110 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: I got it up !!!!!!!!
One of the things we were taught in "airplane design school" was that every pound saved on a components designed weight will save 6 lbs on the entire plane. Of course, this is more true on larger planes than smaller ones. The thinking is that the structure throughout the plane has to be beefed up and each piece you beef up requires another piece to be beefed up. This eventually requires a bigger engine and more fuel and the cycle continues. Performance is also greatly affected. The Christavia is a good example. The original weighed in at 745 lbs. It had no electrics and only the required basic instruments. It would cruise quite readily at 105 mph and climb at 1000 fpm at 1300 (gross with an A-65). The biggest complaint I've heard goes something like this: "I think that Ron Mason's performance numbers are completely out of whack. With my 0-200/0-235 I can only get 95-100 mph and just barely 1000 fpm at gross. There's no way he could get 105 mph and 1000 fpm on only 65 hp." My response to that is "What does your plane weigh, what gross weight are you using". Invariable, the empty is over the 900 lb mark and the gross is 1500-1650 (Mason later increased the max gross to 1500 on wheels and 1650 on floats). One is even at 1065 lbs and is flown at a gross of 1650 on a C-90. Basically, it shows that with our light planes, an increase in weight of 20%-25% will require an increase in power of 50%-70% to get the same performance. However, there are some compromises that have to be made. For example, switching to a carbon fiber wing would save lots of weight, but at what cost! The same is true of engines. A small gas turbine is superlight, but the fuel burn and purchase price make it out of the realm of most builders. Ken On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Make it light. Particularly if you are planning on using anything other > than the marvelous pile of ballast called a Model A. Piets are notoriously > tail-heavy, so an ounce saved at the tail post is equivalent to a pound > saved in the cockpit. Perhaps you can make a scarf joint sander like is > shown in the EAA Wood aircraft construction techniques book to put the > correct angle on the wood. Don't know, haven't gotten that far myself. > > Jack > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Lund [SMTP:crafters(at)elgin.net] > > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:55 PM > > To: ragwing; piet aircamper; piet; 5k > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > > > > > Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse > > sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the > > gutter!!!!! > > > > I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. > > > > The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an > > angle > > and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > > > > The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied > > together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes > > in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless > > absolutly > > neccisary). > > > > Anybody got a third idea?????? > > > > Mike > > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > > The more money you throw at them, > > the faster they fly. > > > > IHA 110 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Thanks Joe... How stupid can I be???? Get the angle +/- 0.25 degees (thats why the great god of manual drafting made 18 " protractors;-) , its a gap filling glue, and the ply skin takes the load anyway. this is just to hold it together while building. Perfect. THX Mike -----Original Message----- From: Joe Krzes <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > >Mike, > I was looking at some Ragwing plans and they suggest a third, pie shaped >piece, same length as the side trussing, glued and clamped in the pie shaped >void. Now finding that angle... > >Joe > > >>The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an >>angle >>and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. >> >>The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied >>together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes >>in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless >>absolutly >>neccisary). >> >>Anybody got a third idea?????? >> >>Mike >>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>The more money you throw at them, >>the faster they fly. >> >>IHA 110 >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Mike, Of course the thickness at the tail will be different than if you cut it down. Might want to run this by those that have. I have not yet been there, not yet done that, don't have a tshirt, but I'm working as fast as I can (when I'm not being anal about choice of wood) :) Joe >From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:10:09 -0500 > > >Thanks Joe... > >How stupid can I be???? > >Get the angle +/- 0.25 degees (thats why the great god of manual drafting >made 18 " protractors;-) , its a gap filling glue, and the ply skin takes >the load anyway. this is just to hold it together while building. > >Perfect. > >THX > >Mike >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Krzes <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:58 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > > > > >Mike, > > I was looking at some Ragwing plans and they suggest a third, pie >shaped > >piece, same length as the side trussing, glued and clamped in the pie >shaped > >void. Now finding that angle... > > > >Joe > > > > > >>The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an > >>angle > >>and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > >> > >>The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied > >>together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts >holes > >>in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless > >>absolutly > >>neccisary). > >> > >>Anybody got a third idea?????? > >> > >>Mike > >>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > >>The more money you throw at them, > >>the faster they fly. > >> > >>IHA 110 > >> > >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet aircamper" , "piet"
Subject: and I got it in the slot
Date: Jan 20, 2000
oh, man this place is starting to sound like my favorite bar.... Joe gave me a great idea... A pie shaped piece (15.1deg, which means 15 on my saw.) glued to the inner gussets. WORKED PERFECT. its now drying. 2 1/2" wide x 12" of spruce that I thought was scrap.... Now will you guys go out and have some fun so I can get rid of these references???? For all the guys that asked offline, Thanks so much. Dylan is home now, his lungs are OK at 3 weeks (not if he gets into dad's stogies.....;-) And I have now quit smoking in the house, down to 37 smokes the last 7 days (nad counting down). Nothing like yer kids to make make ya realize how bad a habit it is. Mike now if they ask me to give up beer.... who needs kids???? M -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> ; piet ; 5k Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:46 PM Subject: 5K I got it up !!!!!!!! >5K - http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm > >Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse >sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the >gutter!!!!! > >I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. > >The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an angle >and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > >The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied >together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes >in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless absolutly >neccisary). > >Anybody got a third idea?????? > >Mike >Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >The more money you throw at them, >the faster they fly. > >IHA 110 > > >______________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, write to fly5k-unsubscribe(at)listbot.com >Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Mike: I guess you're talking about the "mitre" cut you have to make to pull the two sides together at the tail post? I ran into that and simplypulled the two sides together and c-clamped them touching each other. I then laid a straight piece of wood on top of the intersection and drew two parallell lines as cutting guides,continuing then down the tailpost(s) that would give me two parallel flat surfaces that would mate up with each other (on the inside of each fuselage "slab"). Put away your electric tools, now. The next step was to GENTLY and slowly cut down through the tailpost area and follow the guidelines you drew. Use a nice sharp handsaw. Cutting both sides gave me a perfectly parallel surface on each side that mated up just right. Maybe I was just lucky but I did go REALLY slow and deliberate to follow the lines. Man I know my description is confusing.. heck I've confused myself! T_88 fills really well and if necessary a little saw dust can be added in to it for filler. Just be sure and follow the lines carefully, if you ever get off the line while sawing down through there it will be hard to correct. I think they show that cut that way so that it will result in a 1" wide tailpost. Makes a neater transition to the rudder. Oh well good luck. Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> ; "piet" ; "5k" Subject: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse > sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the > gutter!!!!! > > I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. > > The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an angle > and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > > The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied > together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes > in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless absolutly > neccisary). > > Anybody got a third idea?????? > > Mike > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > The more money you throw at them, > the faster they fly. > > IHA 110 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Bert, You did it exactly how I did it, execpt I couldn't describe it that well! The only other thing I did was to cut slightly inside the lines to figure on rough surfaces, and then " gently " clamp the tail posts together and run very coarse sandpaper , back to back, in the slot , till the two sides came together perfectly. Just bring in the clamps so the paper starts to cut. Then when it stops cutting , tighten the clamps slightly, and cut again. then etc. etc. etc. When done, they'll fit perfectly. Sounds harder than it was. But a nice fit. walt -----Original Message----- From: Conoly <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 7:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > >Mike: > >I guess you're talking about the "mitre" cut you have to make to pull the >two sides together at the tail post? > >I ran into that and simplypulled the two sides together and c-clamped them >touching each other. I then laid a straight piece of wood on top of the >intersection and drew two parallell lines as cutting guides,continuing then >down the tailpost(s) that would give me two parallel flat surfaces that >would mate up with each other (on the inside of each fuselage "slab"). Put >away your electric tools, now. The next step was to GENTLY and slowly cut >down through the tailpost area and follow the guidelines you drew. Use a >nice sharp handsaw. Cutting both sides gave me a perfectly parallel >surface on each side that mated up just right. Maybe I was just lucky but I >did go REALLY slow and deliberate to follow the lines. > >Man I know my description is confusing.. heck I've confused myself! >T_88 fills really well and if necessary a little saw dust can be added in to >it for filler. >Just be sure and follow the lines carefully, if you ever get off the line >while sawing down through there it will be hard to correct. >I think they show that cut that way so that it will result in a 1" wide >tailpost. Makes a neater transition to the rudder. Oh well good luck. >Bert >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> >To: "ragwing" ; "piet aircamper" >; "piet" ; >"5k" >Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:55 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > >> >> Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse >> sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the >> gutter!!!!! >> >> I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. >> >> The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an >angle >> and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. >> >> The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied >> together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes >> in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless >absolutly >> neccisary). >> >> Anybody got a third idea?????? >> >> Mike >> Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >> The more money you throw at them, >> the faster they fly. >> >> IHA 110 >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Date: Jan 20, 2000
Cool! I hadnt thought of the sandpaper. Great Idea! Thats what makes this fun. see ya Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > Bert, > You did it exactly how I did it, execpt I couldn't describe it that well! > The only other thing I did was to cut slightly inside the lines to figure on > rough surfaces, and then " gently " clamp the tail posts together and run > very coarse sandpaper , back to back, in the slot , till the two sides came > together perfectly. Just bring in the clamps so the paper starts to cut. > Then when it stops cutting , tighten the clamps slightly, and cut again. > then etc. etc. etc. When done, they'll fit perfectly. > Sounds harder than it was. But a nice fit. > walt > -----Original Message----- > From: Conoly <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > > > > > > >Mike: > > > >I guess you're talking about the "mitre" cut you have to make to pull the > >two sides together at the tail post? > > > >I ran into that and simplypulled the two sides together and c-clamped them > >touching each other. I then laid a straight piece of wood on top of the > >intersection and drew two parallell lines as cutting guides,continuing then > >down the tailpost(s) that would give me two parallel flat surfaces that > >would mate up with each other (on the inside of each fuselage "slab"). Put > >away your electric tools, now. The next step was to GENTLY and slowly cut > >down through the tailpost area and follow the guidelines you drew. Use a > >nice sharp handsaw. Cutting both sides gave me a perfectly parallel > >surface on each side that mated up just right. Maybe I was just lucky but > I > >did go REALLY slow and deliberate to follow the lines. > > > >Man I know my description is confusing.. heck I've confused myself! > >T_88 fills really well and if necessary a little saw dust can be added in > to > >it for filler. > >Just be sure and follow the lines carefully, if you ever get off the line > >while sawing down through there it will be hard to correct. > >I think they show that cut that way so that it will result in a 1" wide > >tailpost. Makes a neater transition to the rudder. Oh well good luck. > >Bert > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> > >To: "ragwing" ; "piet aircamper" > >; "piet" ; > >"5k" > >Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:55 PM > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > > > > >> > >> Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse > >> sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the > >> gutter!!!!! > >> > >> I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. > >> > >> The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an > >angle > >> and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. > >> > >> The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied > >> together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts > holes > >> in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless > >absolutly > >> neccisary). > >> > >> Anybody got a third idea?????? > >> > >> Mike > >> Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > >> The more money you throw at them, > >> the faster they fly. > >> > >> IHA 110 > >> > >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2000
From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: I got it up !!!!!!!!
Mike- I did the exact same thing as Bert regarding the 2 parallel lines on the top. But I also drew 2 vertical lines down the back of the tail post, and used a reciprocating saw with a log cutting blade. Pretty rough, and I left it a little wide. Then used a disk sander to make the two halves fit perfectly. It really went better than I had expected, and looked nice when done. I would be worried that if you used the "pie shaped" insert piece, the tail would be wider for some length up the fuse. This might effect how the stabilizer fits on it, also the tailwheel assembly. Al Swanson > > >Mike: > >I guess you're talking about the "mitre" cut you have to make to pull the >two sides together at the tail post? > >I ran into that and simplypulled the two sides together and c-clamped them >touching each other. I then laid a straight piece of wood on top of the >intersection and drew two parallell lines as cutting guides,continuing then >down the tailpost(s) that would give me two parallel flat surfaces that >would mate up with each other (on the inside of each fuselage "slab"). Put >away your electric tools, now. The next step was to GENTLY and slowly cut >down through the tailpost area and follow the guidelines you drew. Use a >nice sharp handsaw. Cutting both sides gave me a perfectly parallel >surface on each side that mated up just right. Maybe I was just lucky but I >did go REALLY slow and deliberate to follow the lines. > >Man I know my description is confusing.. heck I've confused myself! >T_88 fills really well and if necessary a little saw dust can be added in to >it for filler. >Just be sure and follow the lines carefully, if you ever get off the line >while sawing down through there it will be hard to correct. >I think they show that cut that way so that it will result in a 1" wide >tailpost. Makes a neater transition to the rudder. Oh well good luck. >Bert >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> >To: "ragwing" ; "piet aircamper" >; "piet" ; >"5k" >Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:55 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: I got it up !!!!!!!! > > >> >> Now everybody who thought I was talking about anything other than my fuse >> sides now being vertical in the jig, get your mind out of the >> gutter!!!!! >> >> I have hit a "which is the best way" snag. >> >> The original piet and the GN-1 have the side trussing sanded/cut at an >angle >> and glued at the tailpost. pain in the.... to do. >> >> The flybaby uses a "U" shaped steel brace, and leave them square--tied >> together with bolts. Piet idea is lighter, 'baby is simpler but puts holes >> in a 3/4" structural member (not the best thing to be doing unless >absolutly >> neccisary). >> >> Anybody got a third idea?????? >> >> Mike >> Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >> The more money you throw at them, >> the faster they fly. >> >> IHA 110 >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Which way to go snag
Mike, Yes, the "third idea" on fuselage truss build-up is to do it like the WW-I era plane builders did: metal plates with 4 bolts per at each longeron and truss intersection with wire bracing connecting to every other set of plates in a cross triangular pattern to brace it all together. Oh, yes, and a turnbuckle on EACH wire brace to be tightened to the same degree as all the others. Ineffect the trusses just held the longerons apart and the wires took the flying loads. No gluing of the trusses to longerons was required or needed and no drilling of holes in the longerons either. As I recall, Pfalz and a few others thought this idea sucked and did it other ways. Fokker couldn't make up his mind and used the wire bracing even though he was into welded tubular fuselages. Bernie didn't have such a bad idea after all, and cheaper too. Rodger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
A couple of questions about the dimensions for the tail feathers: Is the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer rounded like the leading edge or is it squared like the main beam? Looks like the trailing edge of the horizontal stab is considered "main beam" and is squared. How about the tips of the horizontal stab and elevators - are they shaped like the leading or trailing edges? Thanks, Tom Travis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Tom, Funny you should ask! I've been building on these recently and Here is how I interpret it: Vertical Stab and Horizontal stab - all hinged surfaces square. Inside elevator - square. Vstab and hstab leading edge - round Top of vstab, top and bottom rudder, outside of hstab, elevator all round. Rudder and Elevator Trailing edge - Best you can do streamline. This isn't exactly how I built mine, but it's how I think you're supposed to do it. Now, that said, you can build them just about any old way you want to! I'm square and tapering on the top and bottom of the rudder and top of the vstab. Hope this helps some! Biggest thing, just settle on something and do it - that makes it Yours! Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2000
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Tom, The trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer and the leading edge of the rudder are both "main beams" and made to the same dimensions. This is also true of the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer and the leading edge of the elevator. Tip dimensions are faired from the main beam dimension to the trailing edge dimension on the rudder and elevators and from the main beam dimension to the leading edge dimension on the horizontal stabilizer. Greg Cardinal >>> 01/21 2:17 PM >>> A couple of questions about the dimensions for the tail feathers: Is the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer rounded like the leading edge or is it squared like the main beam? Looks like the trailing edge of the horizontal stab is considered "main beam" and is squared. How about the tips of the horizontal stab and elevators - are they shaped like the leading or trailing edges? Thanks, Tom Travis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Borodent(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Subject: Re: aviation pictures
No Piet pictures, but a fantastic gallery of mainly military aircraft, that I came across and thought some of you might like http://www.totavia.com/pacman/images/index.html Henry Williams, working on ribs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
fly5k(at)listbot.com
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Subject: GN-1 tail.
Anyone building the tail feathers of the GN-1 let me know the demintions of the ribs in the tails. The thinest pieces of wood that the fabric sits against. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
fly5k(at)listbot.com
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Subject: Rib stiching.
Can someone point me in the right direction/webpage to learn how to stich the ribs? Or do yall goue the fabric on. Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Rib stiching.
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Steve, get the book and the video from Aircraft Spruce on the Stitts process. It shows how to rib stitch. It's pretty easy to do but really hard to explain. The pictures are worth the price. Copinfo(at)home.com Tim Cunningham 1117 SE 80th Street Runnells, Iowa 50237 (515) 237-1510 ----- Original Message ----- From: <vistin(at)juno.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib stiching. > > Can someone point me in the right direction/webpage to learn how to stich > the ribs? Or do yall goue the fabric on. > > Steve > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rib stiching.
Date: Jan 21, 2000
Steve, Heres the straight poop...Get the Poly-fiber catalog from Aircraft Spruce ( or similar) it explains everything about covering up to painting. The best $10.00 you'll ever spend. walt -----Original Message----- From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; fly5k(at)listbot.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib stiching. > >Can someone point me in the right direction/webpage to learn how to stich >the ribs? Or do yall goue the fabric on. > >Steve > >Steve W GN-1 builder >IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2000
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: EAA has a good deal on books
The EAA web site has the Tony Bingelis books on sale until the end of the month. The set of 4 is about $60 for members. Look under monthly specials. I ordered that and subscribed to experimenter today. One thing that I found when bopping around the EAA site were some homebuilding article reprints. The Tony Bingelis article on Making Wood Wing Ribs from the 2/94 Sport Aviation got my attention. I have been worrying about the fit between the diagonals in the ribs. His drawings and text indicate that almost all of the strenght is in the gussets. I am still going to go for decent joints but am not going to worry quite as much about it now. The article is at: http://www.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/wood/bingelis_sa0294.html Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2000
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: fir
for you fella's using douglass fir. do you use the same specs as sitka spruce. max of 1/8 between growth rings, end grain up to 30 degree angle, and no grain runout on the length of it. And is it available locally? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"Ragwing" , "piet aircamper" , "piet" , "5k"
Subject: VROOM, VROOM, VROOM
Date: Jan 22, 2000
Well Guys, today, for the 1st time, I got into my airplane. There is no seat yet, no skin, just a complete fuse truss--I just HAD to climb in and stand roughly where the drivers chair will be going. What a great feeling, more so because its my own design. And now that I have the actual perspective from THE position, I can figure out exactly where to put the bombsite Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: VROOM, VROOM, VROOM
Date: Jan 22, 2000
I remember my first time...It's a good feeling. Did ya cut yourself a control stick and do turns and banks ? Bomb site ?? I set mine up for rockets... >From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: "Steve Williamson" , "Ragwing" >, "piet aircamper" >, "piet" >, "5k" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: VROOM, VROOM, VROOM >Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:20:11 -0500 > > >Well Guys, today, for the 1st time, I got into my airplane. > >There is no seat yet, no skin, just a complete fuse truss--I just HAD to >climb in and stand roughly where the drivers chair will be going. > >What a great feeling, more so because its my own design. And now that I >have >the actual perspective from THE position, I can figure out exactly where to >put the bombsite > >Mike > >Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >The more money you throw at them, >the faster they fly. > >IHA 110 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2000
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: LE and rib Question
I cut out a set of rib gusset patterns based on the full size rib pattern that comes with the plans. The intent was that this would provide a cross check to my lofted rib pattern. I lofted because the distance between the spars on the patter was off by 1/8" and I wasn't too sure about the rest of it either. Things were pretty good except at the LE. The wood that I got from Western Aircraft includes 1"x2" for the leading edges. I have not found the LE wood size called out on the plans except for the 1" thickness. Nor did I find the rib LE angle called out so I used the lofting points. My LE strip is just under 2" long so I figured that I was good with the plans. The pattern LE measures at 1 5/8". Seems like a lot of difference in size to me. The questions: What is the dimension of the LE stock? I am guessing 1x2 actual is correct. What is the angle of the LE 1/2" square capstrip as measured from the lofting baseline? Dave Making progress, after all I only built the rib jig last April. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Leading Edge Dimensions
Dave wrote asking: "What is the dimension of the LE stock? I am guessing 1x2 actual is correct." "What is the angle of the LE 1/2" square capstrip as measured from the lofting baseline?" 1) Use what is necessary to fit the LE as related to the rib fixture you have made or will make. 2) Forget the angle, let the points as called out in the lofting points for the rib be what you use. With such a discrepancy between the pattern for the ribs and the rib as defined by the loft points, use the loft points to make a new rib fixture. Or, make everything fit the rib fixture you already have, even if it is +/- 1/8". Keep in mind that the "new" spar distance of + or - 1/8" carries through to every other ajoining member in ribs, cabanes, ect. Choose what ever is less confusing to you and remember, when you fly over the crowd of onlookers 1500 feet below, they can't see the difference between 1 5/8" ~ 2" or between 1/8" or not, they'll only see your grin! Rodger Busy finishing up an 18 month project in 7 years. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com>
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Subject: Rudder bar bolt size
Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the 3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair amount of abuse... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se>
Subject: Rib stiching.
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Hi Steve, Get the book "How to Cover and Aircraft", put out by the Poly-Fiber company. It's available from Wag-Aero or Aircraft Spruce (among others). I believe the technique is also detailed in AC. 43.13 from the FAA. Everybody homebuilder should have a copy of this book anyway. It is the Bible for aircraft repair and construction. The FAA inspector should be able to se a well used copy of it on your workbench when he comes to inspect your project. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: vistin(at)juno.com [SMTP:vistin(at)juno.com] > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 4:34 PM > To: pietbuilderoldplane(at)listbot.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com; > fly5k(at)listbot.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib stiching. > > > Can someone point me in the right direction/webpage to learn how to stich > the ribs? Or do yall goue the fabric on. > > Steve > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rudder bar bolt size
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size > > >Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall >thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. > >Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair >amount of abuse... DON'T CHANGE IT. REPEAT, DON'T CHANGE IT. I had a 1/4 in bolt in there for a few years. I was taxing out to the runway at Glens Falls NY airport one day, & bam, the bolt parted. Another two minuets and I would not be here now. Heck of a time taxing back to the ramp. Speaking of the rudder bar. there is vertical play in the rudder bar due to the central pivot point. To minimize it, I placed plastic strips under the full length of the fore & aft seat stringers to decrease the gap between the stringers & the rudder bar. This eliminated most of the play. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William C. Beerman" <wcb(at)pliantsystems.com>
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Subject: Re: Rudder bar bolt size
Great! This is just the sort of information I was looking for. I don't know how many hours you have on your plane, but have you noticed any wear on the rudder bar pivot bushing? -Bill > From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:39:28 -0500 > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size > > > > > > > > >Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm > >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder > >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the > >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder > >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall > >thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. > > > >Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair > >amount of abuse... > > DON'T CHANGE IT. REPEAT, DON'T CHANGE IT. > > I had a 1/4 in bolt in there for a few years. I was taxing out to the runway > at Glens Falls NY airport one day, & bam, the bolt parted. Another two > minuets and I would not be here now. Heck of a time taxing back to the ramp. > > Speaking of the rudder bar. there is vertical play in the rudder bar due to > the central pivot point. To minimize it, I placed plastic strips under the > full length of the fore & aft seat stringers to decrease the gap between the > stringers & the rudder bar. This eliminated most of the play. > > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Tom, I agree that the plans aren't real clear here and I've seen different Piets built differently. I decided to use leading edge all the way around except for trailing edge and the main beam (of course). I haven't started gluing yet, but I did rough cut all of the wood and bundled it so I now have a tail kit ready to go. I still think this will work very well. The only change I might consider is making the inboard edges of the elevators out of main beam also. I also ordered all my leading edge material pre-shaped "T-stringer" from Wicks. If you want to see my wood order and how I cut it, go to this link: http://www.hal-pc.org/~hjkr/building_log.htm Joe Is the >trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer rounded like the leading edge or >is >it squared like the main beam? Looks like the trailing edge of the >horizontal stab is considered "main beam" and is squared. > >How about the tips of the horizontal stab and elevators - are they shaped >like the leading or trailing edges? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rudder bar bolt size
Date: Jan 24, 2000
> >Great! This is just the sort of information I was looking for. I don't >know how many hours you have on your plane, but have you noticed any wear on >the rudder bar pivot bushing? > >-Bill > Hi Bill: Got about 300 hrs on Mr Sam. The pivot looked good when I did the last annual. Another thing Bill, I brought the rudder & tailwheel cables to the rudder bar, rather than as indicated in the print Mike B Piet N6897MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet aircamper" , "piet" , "5k"
Subject: Fuse Stand
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Hi All I was downstairs playing earlier, looking over the fuse and thinking what needed doing next (O.K, so I was drinking beer in the shop ;-) With the turning over and over to place the various fittings, I realized what was needed was something like an engine stand, or the "rotiserie" stands used for metal frames. What I did was build a nose and tail one out of 2x3's and old castors. The "firewall" one sits with a 26" sqaure piece of ply, and the fuse is friction held by screwing some scrap pine sticks thru the ply thus clamping the front posts. The tail has a similar clamp-type setup made to fit. Both rotate on 1/4" bolts on the center of the ply, with another going thru at the "bottom" for a locking pin. "Bearing" is just a scap of 3/4" oak. Only took 3 beers, ...er,...um, I meant a couple hours to build both, and the only time I will need a helper to turn the fuse from here on in (I HATE working sideways or upside-down) is to actually mount it on the stand. Cost was about $25 for the pair if I'd had to buy the stuff now. (Thats rougly what I spent on the stuff originally) Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2000
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: motor mts
On the the 1967 improved plans, it seems that they forgot the thickness of the fuse mounted motor mt pieces. of course it could be there and I can't see it. what is everybody using? del Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet aircamper" , "piet" , "5k"
Subject: Whats Best???
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Hey Guys. As of today, the last gusset on the fuse is on, and the last clamp is removed ;-) Now, I have to fill in between all those gussets to get full-contact for the ply skin. Simplest (but not the lightest) seems to be just rip some of the 1/8" ply (birch) into 3/4" strips and use that. That guarantees the thickness will be right. Anybody got a better idea??? Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Hinchman" <mikehi(at)molalla.net>
Subject: Unwarping plywood nose blocks -- opinions needed
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Folks, I need your informed opinions about something. In the Fall of '98 I made a template and routed out all the rib nose blocks for my Wagabond project. They are of 1/4 inch aircraft plywood. I then got occupied with other things, so stored the finished nose blocks flat in a cardboard box in an unheated area, but up off the concrete slab. Just after this past Christmas I finally found time to get started building ribs, only to discover that 18 of my nose blocks are somewhat warped. I thought about just tossing them out, getting more plywood and routing a new batch, but I didn't want to spend the money on more plywood if I can save these. Here is what I thought of doing. Layer up 5 or 6 nose blocks in a big sandwich, alternating with damp (not soaking wet) paper towel between them and clamping the whole sandwich between two blocks of 3/4 inch plywood. The company where I work has lots of 3/4 inch oak veneer plywood scrap, and it's furniture-grade wood (no voids) and is tough stuff, not the crap you get at Mr. Plywood. Then I'd build a baking box out of a cardboard box with a muffin fan in one end and a couple of 75-watt bulbs inside, with an air exit on the other end. Cook the clamped sandwich in the box at whatever temperature it reaches (hopefully around 200 degrees) for a week or so and unclamp it. Anyone think this will work to straighten out the nose blocks, or am I just SOL? Any other ideas for straightening these blocks? Thanks, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LaurenMWilliams(at)webtv.net (Lauren Williams)
Date: Jan 24, 2000
Subject: Re: Whats Best???
Yea, Don't put gussets on where it's is going to be plywood covered. The plywood serves that purpose. mailsorter-101-5.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-e/ms.dwm.v7+dul2) From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> aircamper" , "piet" , "5k" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Whats Best??? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:58:25 -0500 Hey Guys. As of today, the last gusset on the fuse is on, and the last clamp is removed ;-) Now, I have to fill in between all those gussets to get full-contact for the ply skin. Simplest (but not the lightest) seems to be just rip some of the 1/8" ply (birch) into 3/4" strips and use that. That guarantees the thickness will be right. Anybody got a better idea??? Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Jan 25, 2000
Subject: Redder bar pivot bolt/ware
I was worried about the rudder bar bushing warring on the pedestal mt. so I brazed a 3/8 flat washer on the bottom of the rudder bar. This makes for a larger ware surface between the bar and pedestal. Easy to add a drop of oil on occasion. Leon Stefan Ks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2000
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: motor mts
On my plans they are marked .090" Greg Cardinal >>> del magsam 01/24 4:58 PM >>> On the the 1967 improved plans, it seems that they forgot the thickness of the fuse mounted motor mt pieces. of course it could be there and I can't see it. what is everybody using? del Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Unwarping plywood nose blocks -- opinions needed
What have you got to loose by trying to straiten them out? IMHO I would certainly give your plan a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work, cut new ones. Ken On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Michael Hinchman wrote: > > Folks, > > I need your informed opinions about something. > > Then I'd build a baking box out of a cardboard box with a muffin fan in one > end and a couple of 75-watt bulbs inside, with an air exit on the other end. > Cook the clamped sandwich in the box at whatever temperature it reaches > (hopefully around 200 degrees) for a week or so and unclamp it. > > Anyone think this will work to straighten out the nose blocks, or am I just > SOL? Any other ideas for straightening these blocks? > > Thanks, > > Mike Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet" , "5k"
Subject: Floor
Date: Jan 25, 2000
Hi guys I was down scratching the skull with the morning coffee, and had an idea. The original floor design is placed under the lower x-braces and glued on from underneath. This is how mine is sitting right now, but its just tacked and clamped. Hows about mounting it on TOP of the lower longerons and x-braces??? It would be a bit trickier to make and install (some detail cutting with the dremmel would do the trick) and would require a few mounting blocks to be installed for seats ect, but on the plus side, it would give fewer places for moisture to accumulate, it would just run down the smooth floor and out the drain holes by the pilots seat. Or am I missing something? Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Jan 25, 2000
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Thanks a lot for posting that log file. It is really helpful. I hope that you continue to document with this detail and share with the list. Mike Bell Columbia, SC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 25, 2000
Subject: Re: Floor
I thought the same thing. Also, how about the ply sides on the inside. Wouldn't this be just as strong and more likely to protect the pilot? Howdy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Reading between the gussets
Mike writes looking for a "better idea" to fill between the gussets. Yes there is, and save some weight in the process; rip the 1/8" ply into 5/16" strips and use that. Glue and tack with SMALL brads sparingly. You've got the right idea, something has to go on the longerons between the gussets to give a proper fitting covering. Of course, this applies to the longerons behind the rear seat. The plywood sides and bottom must be in full contact with the longerons and braces. Then when you bolt the metal fittings to the upper longerons you will find you'll have to use this same idea of a strip of wood to raise the covering above the height of the bolt head. And then taper it down to the surface of the plywood, at the rear of the cockpit, over some reasonable distance of 6" to 12". As for putting the plywood sides on the inside of the longerons, maybe. This will effectivly reduce the cockpit width by 2", and possiably cause routing problems for the rear cockpit throttle cable, and instrument wiring and cables. About putting in the plywood flooring on the top side of the longerons, lots of luck. Maybe not impossable but close to it. Remember the KISS method, Keep It Simple Stu---(Guys). Besides, put the floor board on first and then lap the sides over the bottom, making them flush with the bottom ply. Now about the idea to make a mount to hold the fuselage so it could be turned to a convient position to work on. NOW THAT'S A GREAT IDEA! Rodger gettin' close to finishing the wing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Reading between the gussets
Date: Jan 25, 2000
> >Yes there is, and save some weight in the process; rip the 1/8" ply >into 5/16" strips and use that. Glue and tack with SMALL brads >sparingly. You've got the right idea, something has to go on the >longerons between the gussets to give a proper fitting covering. > >Of course, this applies to the longerons behind the rear seat. The >plywood sides and bottom must be in full contact with the longerons >and braces. > >Then when you bolt the metal fittings to the upper longerons you will >find you'll have to use this same idea of a strip of wood to raise the >covering above the height of the bolt head. And then taper it down to >the surface of the plywood, at the rear of the cockpit, over some >reasonable distance of 6" to 12". Thanks- One of those obvious things where I can see the forest for the trees. >As for putting the plywood sides on the inside of the longerons, maybe. >This will effectivly reduce the cockpit width by 2", and possiably >cause routing problems for the rear cockpit throttle cable, and >instrument wiring and cables. > >About putting in the plywood flooring on the top side of the longerons, >lots of luck. Maybe not impossable but close to it. Remember the KISS >method, Keep It Simple Stu---(Guys). Besides, put the floor board on >first and then lap the sides over the bottom, making them flush with >the bottom ply. I actually tried it with a cardboard mock-up of the ply. It'll ONLY work if the firewall is not on yet, but then it is just a matter of some EXACT cutting, feeding it in thru the front at an angle and lay it flat. I figure on 15-20 hrs to do the cutting/sanding that exact, plus wrecked pieces. I will try it with one, and if that fails the wrecked pice becomes bulkhead material and back to the old way. >Now about the idea to make a mount to hold the fuselage so it could be >turned to a convient position to work on. NOW THAT'S A GREAT IDEA. Works Great, except I got rid of the tail support and just have my workmate about 1/3 if the way foreward from the tailpost. Much easier to just grab and turn, and no need to ply areound with locking pins under a loaded mount (which didnt work so well--to much flex in the wood) >Rodger >gettin' close to finishing the wing > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Floor
Date: Jan 25, 2000
Graham Hanson's Piet and also it's sister ship has the ply on the inside(of the sides). Doug Hunt ---------- > From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Floor > Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 11:53 AM > > > I thought the same thing. Also, how about the ply sides on the inside. > Wouldn't this be just as strong and more likely to protect the pilot? > Howdy > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: "James F. Cooper" <blugoos1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Continental A-65
I'm looking into building a Pietenpol using a Replicraft Quick Build Kit, and am hoping to power it with a Continental A-65. Do any of you know where I might find such an engine? Thank you, Jim Cooper ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Continental A-65
Date: Jan 26, 2000
I have 3 Continental A-65-8's. They start at $3000.00 and go up to $5500. I know there are some out there that are cheaper, but you usually have to have them rebuilt and end up with more in it than you first think. One engine has 65 hours SMOH, another has 170 hours and the last has over 800 hours I think. Copinfo(at)home.com Tim Cunningham 1117 SE 80th Street Runnells, Iowa 50237 (515) 237-1510 ----- Original Message ----- From: James F. Cooper <blugoos1(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental A-65 > > I'm looking into building a Pietenpol using a Replicraft Quick Build > Kit, and am hoping to power it with a Continental A-65. Do any of you > know where I might find such an engine? Thank you, Jim Cooper > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Continental A-65
Date: Jan 26, 2000
Nope. I have seen many advertised at various times on the net. Just takes some digging. Good Luck, steveee -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of James F. Cooper Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental A-65 I'm looking into building a Pietenpol using a Replicraft Quick Build Kit, and am hoping to power it with a Continental A-65. Do any of you know where I might find such an engine? Thank you, Jim Cooper ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike sublett" <mikesublett(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Continental A-65
Date: Jan 26, 2000
i to am looking for A-65 or 85 for use in my Piet project thanks for any leads regards, Mike Sublett >From: "James F. Cooper" <blugoos1(at)bellsouth.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental A-65 >Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:21:00 -0800 > > > >I'm looking into building a Pietenpol using a Replicraft Quick Build >Kit, and am hoping to power it with a Continental A-65. Do any of you >know where I might find such an engine? Thank you, Jim Cooper > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike sublett" <mikesublett(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Continental A-65
Date: Jan 26, 2000
i to am looking for A-65 or 85 for use in my Piet project thanks for any leads regards, Mike Sublett >From: "James F. Cooper" <blugoos1(at)bellsouth.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental A-65 >Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:21:00 -0800 > > > >I'm looking into building a Pietenpol using a Replicraft Quick Build >Kit, and am hoping to power it with a Continental A-65. Do any of you >know where I might find such an engine? Thank you, Jim Cooper > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2000
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Continental A-65
this guy had a couple (rebuilders) dvstarr(at)aol.com . he's located in mpls mn. --- mike sublett wrote: > > > i to am looking for A-65 or 85 for use in my Piet > project > > thanks for any leads > > regards, > > Mike Sublett > > > >From: "James F. Cooper" <blugoos1(at)bellsouth.net> > >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > >To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental A-65 > >Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:21:00 -0800 > > > Cooper" > > > > > >I'm looking into building a Pietenpol using a > Replicraft Quick Build > >Kit, and am hoping to power it with a Continental > A-65. Do any of you > >know where I might find such an engine? Thank you, > Jim Cooper > > > > > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 26, 2000
I'm trying to weld the "t-shaped" landing gear members for the bungees-type gears on my Grega. Per the plans. Some of you may have run into this problem, too. The upper arm is .75 -.049 tubing. the lower arm is .875 - .035 tubing (note it's ID is plenty). The upper arm is supposed to telescope (slide) into the lower one. Small cross members are welded on both lower and upper arms about 5 inches or so apart to form a "T" on each member. The bungees then wrap around the T's providing a telescoping unit that ties the axle to the bottom of the fuse (OK , sort of, this is getting too hard to describe). Herein lies the problem. I am welding with Acetylene torch, so when I weld the T"s unto the LOWER leg (you know the bigger one that the smaller slides into), the slag(?) accumulates just enough on the inside to prohibit the upper leg from sliding freely. I'm not a bad welder so I feel like I am not putting too much heat into the tubing. It just seems that there should be a better way. Is there any sort of reamer that would be wide enough to run down through it (kind a like Roto Rooter for homebuilts) after the welding is complete? Could a machine shop do this. Would it be better to wire weld this part? I could just make it a FIXED gear Grega...... Thanks for the help, bert ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 26, 2000
You can ream it, but you remove a lot of metal in the area that you least want to -- adjacent to the weld. The best thing to do is put a piece of the smaller tubing inside before you weld (usually a scrap piece, but not necessarily) After welding, the inside tube comes out, and the slag is not built up to where it will keep the next tube from sliding in. If you have already done all welding and do not want to redo, take a piece of welding rod and crimp it around a strip of coarse sandpaper. Chuck the welding rod in a hand drill and go at it. You will eventually ream out the slag. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 26, 2000
I used a brake cylinder hone in mine to clean them up as i recall. Doug Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Conoly <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 6:02 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > >I'm trying to weld the "t-shaped" landing gear members for the bungees-type >gears on my Grega. Per the plans. Some of you may have run into this >problem, too. > >The upper arm is .75 -.049 tubing. the lower arm is .875 - .035 tubing >(note it's ID is plenty). The upper arm is supposed to telescope (slide) >into the lower one. Small cross members are welded on both lower and upper >arms about 5 inches or so apart to form a "T" on each member. The bungees >then wrap around the T's providing a telescoping unit that ties the axle to >the bottom of the fuse (OK , sort of, this is getting too hard to >describe). > >Herein lies the problem. > >I am welding with Acetylene torch, so when I weld the T"s unto the LOWER >leg (you know the bigger one that the smaller slides into), the slag(?) >accumulates just enough on the inside to prohibit the upper leg from sliding >freely. I'm not a bad welder so I feel like I am not putting too much heat >into the tubing. It just seems that there should be a better way. > >Is there any sort of reamer that would be wide enough to run down through it >(kind a like Roto Rooter for homebuilts) after the welding is complete? >Could a machine shop do this. >Would it be better to wire weld this part? >I could just make it a FIXED gear Grega...... > >Thanks for the help, >bert > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear
legs. I had the same problem with the slag. If I remember correctly I just used a round bastard and worked with it until it was free to slide as intended. I don't think a rigid gear is a good ideal. Unless you can make perfect landings each and every time. When the power is cut it drops like a rock. I know I have felt the gear flex more than once. I think a few landings like that with a rigid gear the attach points would start to get loose.jas > >I'm trying to weld the "t-shaped" landing gear members for the bungees-type >gears on my Grega. Per the plans. Some of you may have run into this >problem, too. > >The upper arm is .75 -.049 tubing. the lower arm is .875 - .035 tubing >(note it's ID is plenty). The upper arm is supposed to telescope (slide) >into the lower one. Small cross members are welded on both lower and upper >arms about 5 inches or so apart to form a "T" on each member. The bungees >then wrap around the T's providing a telescoping unit that ties the axle to >the bottom of the fuse (OK , sort of, this is getting too hard to >describe). > >Herein lies the problem. > >I am welding with Acetylene torch, so when I weld the T"s unto the LOWER >leg (you know the bigger one that the smaller slides into), the slag(?) >accumulates just enough on the inside to prohibit the upper leg from sliding >freely. I'm not a bad welder so I feel like I am not putting too much heat >into the tubing. It just seems that there should be a better way. > >Is there any sort of reamer that would be wide enough to run down through it >(kind a like Roto Rooter for homebuilts) after the welding is complete? >Could a machine shop do this. >Would it be better to wire weld this part? >I could just make it a FIXED gear Grega...... > >Thanks for the help, >bert > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet" , "piet aircamper" , "5k"
Subject: Fabric Work
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Hi Guys I am now building my turtledeck and need to plan ahead, but have never tried what I am doing. That "what" is I modified the original single-curve shape to get a headrest. To save a bit of weight I would like to just do it "single layer" stringer but I dont know if the fabric can be made to work. Can I just run the stringers from bulkead #1 to #2 in the dual curve shape then continue with the single curve from #2 back, or do I have to do the single curve and fabric it, then do the headrest. Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Jim, I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your plane you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more I think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard surface runways. Thanks! Gary M. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
> I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your plane >you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would >the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? I have ridden, raced, abused and beat-up motorcyles since I was 12. Sarted with a little Honda "minni-bike" (damn, I'd like ta have that thing again ;-) Low riders, Cafe racers, hogs (best I ever had was a GSXR) ... the tires can can take it. I have never had a blow-out. The side-load theory is (*& %$. Just what do you think is happening to that tire in a 150mph curve on a 600#machine with 200# of rider and 30# of fuel ????. Bends, yes..flexes...yes. blows out...not unless its defective. How bout potholes???, road breaks???? HARD breaking???? (DONT touch that front lever....) On the otherhand, these morons in 4 wheel vehicals that dont see a rider....2 hits was enough, I quit riding, but I trust the parts completly. > I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more I >think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more >sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard >surface runways. Ever seen a hard driven bike on grass???. Blacktop is what those tires were deisgned for. I am using old honda wheels, hubs and brakes, spoked (prob old CB350 or 450) and if I hit hard enough to break a wheel, I will be to busy healing to care. Now, overall design... I am going to use the scout-type. The last thing ya want in a taildragger is hit long grass with a cross axel. just my .02 Mike > >Thanks! >Gary M. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Everett Perkins" <ev(at)clinic.net>
"piet aircamper" , "5k"
Subject: Re: Fabric Work
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Mike, I did my turtle back with white ceder strips over one inch blue foam formers. There is a slight reverse curve behind the pilots head, done by cutting the top center ceder strip from a wider strip with a band saw. (or a hand held saber saw) The whole assembly including the ply end caps foam and strips was about two pounds if memory serves me. Very strong by the way. I have not yet covered but the plan is to stitch. Ev rws #306 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> piet aircamper ; 5k Subject: RW: Fabric Work > Hi Guys > > I am now building my turtledeck and need to plan ahead, but have never tried > what I am doing. > > That "what" is I modified the original single-curve shape to get a headrest. > To save a bit of weight I would like to just do it "single layer" stringer > but I dont know if the fabric can be made to work. > > Can I just run the stringers from bulkead #1 to #2 in the dual curve shape > then continue with the single curve from #2 back, or do I have to do the > single curve and fabric it, then do the headrest. > > Mike > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > The more money you throw at them, > the faster they fly. > > IHA 110 > > This list is provided as a service to RagWing builders and the members > of the list are responsible for their own comments. > Archived on eScribe at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/rb/ > To unsubscribe send mail to ragwing-requests(at)lists.zyx.net and include > unsubscribe ragwing as the body. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs
Conoly writes about a welding problem with the landing gear legs. The "ring" of extra metal that you are seeing when looking down the welded tube is showing you that you have good weld penetration. It's something that you want to see. Good, now the next thing to do is to run a reamer down the tube to clean it up to allow the other member to slide freely. If you don't have a reamer of the correct size and length to do this then visit a nearby machine shop and ask them to do it. Shouldn't cost too much and your smile will return. Rodger Workin' on the wing, still. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Straight axel L.G.
Mike wrote: "Now, overall design... I am going to use the scout-type. The last thing ya want in a taildragger is hit long grass with a cross axel." Ahhhh, things begin to come clear, long grass, wheat, corn, ect. and a straight axel... Now I understand the meaning of the term "Improved" landing gear. (Get the tractor and shredder out guys.) Kinda like landing "across" the furrows of a plowed field. =8< Rodger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear
legs. Gary I don't think that the tires are the concern. I think it is the width of the bearing area on motorcycle wheels that is the concern. The side loading that the wheels have to endure on landings that are less than perfect. If you never drift on landing the motorcycle wheels would be just fine. Also the axle size will be something to consider. The axle should be no less than 1 inch. in dia. My axle is 1 inch. But if I hadn't already had wheels and axle I would have used 1 1/4 inch dia. axles. jas > >Jim, > > I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your plane >you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would >the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? > > I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more I >think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more >sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard >surface runways. > >Thanks! >Gary M. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Straight axel L.G.
Long grass ain't nothing. Ask Austin at FlaBob about how to taxi into the water faucet hidden in the grass with straight axle landing gear....and it wasn't even all that tall! Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Straight axel L.G.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
I dunno, I kinda like a view of the world inverted. But, there is a place and time for everything And a field aint the place. (damn, I miss that citabria) Mike -----Original Message----- From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 12:42 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight axel L.G. <childsway@indian-creek.net> > >Mike wrote: > >"Now, overall design... I am going to use the scout-type. The last >thing ya want in a taildragger is hit long grass with a cross axel." > >Ahhhh, things begin to come clear, long grass, wheat, corn, ect. and >a straight axel... Now I understand the meaning of the term "Improved" >landing gear. (Get the tractor and shredder out guys.) > >Kinda like landing "across" the furrows of a plowed field. =8< > >Rodger > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gearlegs.
Hi Jim, Have some Honda 90 trail bike front wheels, converted to 9 gauge stainless steel spokes (36, good for 1000 lbs. each) at Buchanans, with a 5/8 solid axle,with Dunlop 100/90 17 tires, good for 130 mph at 480 lbs each when hot. At 40 mph cold, they are good for over 1000 lbs. each. Had some similar concerns and solved my "mental problems" with these experiments. Take both your 1" tube axle and a 5/8 solid axle and put them securely in a vice. Borrow your brother-in-laws torque wrench (use my own?!) and make up a bolt and/or nut fixture so that you can torque over each of these axles and see which one goes first. For side loads, go to a motocross ralley sometime and watch what these 200 lb. guys do to the one (1) front wheel of a 500 lb bike going 2-3 times as fast as you will ever land a piet. The spoke guys at Buchanan's laughingly suggest to me that if I was able to fold over these spoke and rim assemblies, my post hospital rehab would be of much more concern. Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)accessus.net>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Using motorcycle wheels is fine EXCEPT they do not have enough "dish" for much side load. Spacing the bearings and the spoke flanges farther apart solves the problem Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact! (Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com) -----Original Message----- From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > >Gary I don't think that the tires are the concern. I think it is the width >of the bearing area on motorcycle wheels that is the concern. The side >loading that the wheels have to endure on landings that are less than >perfect. If you never drift on landing the motorcycle wheels would be just >fine. Also the axle size will be something to consider. The axle should be >no less than 1 inch. in dia. My axle is 1 inch. But if I hadn't already had >wheels and axle I would have used 1 1/4 inch dia. axles. jas > > >> >>Jim, >> >> I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your plane >>you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would >>the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? >> >> I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more I >>think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more >>sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard >>surface runways. >> >>Thanks! >>Gary M. >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Mike, I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by a woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross when I was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate too see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of airplane on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps in this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead would do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold up if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to wonder if they're up to that or not The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very much impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you look at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a road-race bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk of the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, how much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass and nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of it's life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after landing, to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface the spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of rubber. But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! Two more cents. Gary M. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: My web site is back up.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Some of you wanted to see my plane and website. I have returned it to the net. Be aware that it is somewhat out of date, but there is some info on my plane there that might be of interest. The new site name is: http://Aircamper.byu.edu Steve Eldredge NX7229R ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Ah, Gary... Lets get a couple of GSXR 1100's.....Or a Yamaha's ...or just good old fat boys. I'll show ya how to put side loads on tires. On gravel roads....and run so fast the boys with the flahsers dont even dream of keeping up. Flash foreward, wife and kids, and I am building the slowest thing in the sky....but give me 2 wheels agian.... Old enough to know better, too young to care. (Dad, at 73. got an 883 sportster for his last birthday. HIS last bike was a '33 dkw ) Mike -----Original Message----- From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > >Mike, > >I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by a >woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on >motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! > > I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross when I >was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate too >see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of airplane >on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps in >this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead would >do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold up >if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated >aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to wonder >if they're up to that or not > > The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a >sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very much >impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you look >at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a road-race >bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk of >the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, how >much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass and >nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of it's >life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after landing, >to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface the >spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft >runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. > > Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know >Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler >style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels >themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of >rubber. > > But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke >wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! > >Two more cents. > >Gary M. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com>
Subject: Guys with flashers
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers and I and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them still ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't keep up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think how many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if needed and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up with normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun part of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my balloon 800 x 4's. Copinfo(at)home.com Tim Cunningham 1117 SE 80th Street Runnells, Iowa 50237 (515) 237-1510 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > Ah, Gary... > > Lets get a couple of GSXR 1100's.....Or a Yamaha's ...or just good old fat > boys. I'll show ya how to put side loads on tires. On gravel roads....and > run so fast the boys with the flahsers dont even dream of keeping up. > > Flash foreward, wife and kids, and I am building the slowest thing in the > sky....but give me 2 wheels agian.... > > Old enough to know better, > too young to care. > > (Dad, at 73. got an 883 sportster for his last birthday. HIS last bike was a > '33 dkw ) > > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:23 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > > > > >Mike, > > > >I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by a > >woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on > >motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! > > > > I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross when > I > >was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate too > >see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of airplane > >on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps > in > >this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead would > >do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold up > >if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated > >aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to wonder > >if they're up to that or not > > > > The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a > >sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very much > >impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you look > >at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a > road-race > >bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk of > >the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, how > >much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass > and > >nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of > it's > >life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after landing, > >to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface the > >spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft > >runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. > > > > Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know > >Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler > >style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels > >themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of > >rubber. > > > > But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke > >wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! > > > >Two more cents. > > > >Gary M. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Guys with flashers
On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Cunningham wrote: > > Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers and I > and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them still > ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't keep > up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think how > many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if needed > and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up with > normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun part > of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, > but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my > balloon 800 x 4's. > Copinfo(at)home.com > Tim Cunningham I've been watching the Paris Ducar rally over the past couple of evenings. Consistently, over the long runs, the bikes are off the pace of the "cars" (actually, the cars are more like SUV's) by a significant amount. I was rather suprised by this! Back to Piets... The wheels that these guys use take an awful beating over the course. 10' drops are seen quite often and yes, the entire bike sometimes lands sideways and on one wheel similar to the described crosswind landing! Granted, the weight is probably about half of a loaded Piet but the speed is around the 130-150 kph or around 2-3 times that of the Piet. They may be worth a look. SpeedVision has been carrying the races all this week. Speaking of SpeedVision...I saw an interesting show last night called "Airshow World". It looks to be a weekly show on SpeedVision. Anyway, they were visiting the Shuttleworth Air Museum in England where they specialize in planes dating from 1909 to 1940. THe currently have the oldest flying airplane in exsistance, a 1909 Bleriot, I believe it was. Anyway, as they progressed through the collection they came to Miles Aircraft's first plane, a biplane designed for racing in the early 20's. They are still restoring the plane and they were talking to the engineer coordinating the rebuild. He said that the original was covered in Irish linen but due to the cost, they were using American Ceconite. That was all well and good until he went on to say that one of the Ceconite's advantages was it's light weight of only 5 POUNDS PER SQUARE YARD!!! Now let's see, am I going to end up with a 450 lb covering job (5 lbs x 45 liniar yards x 2 yards wide). If so, I may need a second Franklin ;-). I suspect that he had the decimal place wrong and it was POINT 5 lbs/sq. yd. 45 lbs seems more realistic. Anyway, if you happen to see the show listed, it's well worth watching. Here, it's on SpeedVision on Wednesday nights along with Sport Flying (EAA's video magazine), Planes of Fame, World of Flying and Wings! I generally don't get much done on Wednesday nights ;-) Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Subject: Re: My web site is back up.
Steve: Can you please tell me what you used for your lift struts? I have asked but either you havent seen my emails or sumpin!! Steve > > > Some of you wanted to see my plane and website. I have returned it > to the > net. Be aware that it is somewhat out of date, but there is some > info on my > plane there that might be of interest. > > The new site name is: > > http://Aircamper.byu.edu > > Steve Eldredge > NX7229R > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Guys with flashers
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Tim, way back when.... us and the local cops had an agreement. we promised not to drive drunk, keep our antics to the back roads in the middle of nowhere... and they agreed not to shoot us for playing. How times have changed. Old buddy, a 35 year vet of the local cops (and an emeraude driver) quit in disgust of the crap. We used to have some fun, went fast, but nobody got hurt. If the bike wreked, it sure as hell wasnt becouse he got rammed. Today, its a jailable offence. and my 3 year old boy will never know the pure joy of firing up a gass guzzling, atmosphere poluting machine....and just going. F)()* $ the cops, )(*(& %the law. Freedom on 2 wheels. He will never have that freedom, and as I build this airplane, I really wonder if he will ever get to ride in it, or should I just torch it now. Before that is legislated away from us. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Tim Cunningham <copinfo(at)home.com> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Guys with flashers > >Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers and I >and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them still >ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't keep >up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think how >many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if needed >and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up with >normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun part >of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, >but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my >balloon 800 x 4's. >Copinfo(at)home.com >Tim Cunningham >1117 SE 80th Street >Runnells, Iowa 50237 (515) 237-1510 >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 4:06 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > >> >> Ah, Gary... >> >> Lets get a couple of GSXR 1100's.....Or a Yamaha's ...or just good old >fat >> boys. I'll show ya how to put side loads on tires. On gravel roads....and >> run so fast the boys with the flahsers dont even dream of keeping up. >> >> Flash foreward, wife and kids, and I am building the slowest thing in the >> sky....but give me 2 wheels agian.... >> >> Old enough to know better, >> too young to care. >> >> (Dad, at 73. got an 883 sportster for his last birthday. HIS last bike was >a >> '33 dkw ) >> >> Mike >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:23 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. >> >> >> >> > >> >Mike, >> > >> >I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by >a >> >woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on >> >motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! >> > >> > I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross >when >> I >> >was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate >too >> >see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of >airplane >> >on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps >> in >> >this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead >would >> >do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold >up >> >if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated >> >aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to >wonder >> >if they're up to that or not >> > >> > The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a >> >sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very >much >> >impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you >look >> >at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a >> road-race >> >bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk >of >> >the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, >how >> >much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass >> and >> >nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of >> it's >> >life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after >landing, >> >to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface >the >> >spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft >> >runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. >> > >> > Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know >> >Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler >> >style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels >> >themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of >> >rubber. >> > >> > But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke >> >wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! >> > >> >Two more cents. >> > >> >Gary M. >> > >> > >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Guys with flashers
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Mike C. You know, hearing you talk about your exploits reminds me of what my brother who was a cop for 20 years, he always said, "You may outrun my motor, but you won't outrun my Motorola!" I tried to outrun a Texas State Trooper one time when I was young and dumb, I was on a dirt bike and was doing good until I fouled a plug. I got caught, he ended-up letting me go, cause we were way out in the boonies, and I had an 8 mile hike to get home. Did a lot of thinking that day. Didn't do it again! Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Guys with flashers
Date: Jan 27, 2000
On a 1-1 basis, a lot of the county mounties are decent guys. The comes the )(*&& %$$ RCMP, FBI, CIA and all the other nazi's. Well, they can KMA (kiss my ass)... as for the county guys... I feel like a run... there's a pot of chillie on, and a case of beer chilling. anybody want to play???? M -----Original Message----- From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Guys with flashers > >Mike C. > > You know, hearing you talk about your exploits reminds me of what my >brother who was a cop for 20 years, he always said, "You may outrun my >motor, but you won't outrun my Motorola!" I tried to outrun a Texas State >Trooper one time when I was young and dumb, I was on a dirt bike and was >doing good until I fouled a plug. I got caught, he ended-up letting me go, >cause we were way out in the boonies, and I had an 8 mile hike to get home. >Did a lot of thinking that day. Didn't do it again! > >Gary > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 27, 2000
Thanks, guys, for the responses! I've got several good ideas here. Once this CCCOOLLDD weather moves on off (the southeast is about to take a hit and we are not used to this), I will get back out in the shop and try them. I'll have those bungees working in a couple weeks. See Ya, Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > You can ream it, but you remove a lot of metal in the area that you least > want to -- adjacent to the weld. The best thing to do is put a piece of > the smaller tubing inside before you weld (usually a scrap piece, but not > necessarily) After welding, the inside tube comes out, and the slag is not > built up to where it will keep the next tube from sliding in. If you have > already done all welding and do not want to redo, take a piece of welding > rod and crimp it around a strip of coarse sandpaper. Chuck the welding rod > in a hand drill and go at it. You will eventually ream out the slag. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Txgroup(at)home.com
for" ;
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 01/27/00
remove Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote: > > * > Pietenpol-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Thu 01/27/00: 22 > > From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear > legs. > > > I had the same problem with the slag. If I remember correctly I just used a > round bastard and worked with it until it was free to slide as intended. I > don't think a rigid gear is a good ideal. Unless you can make perfect > landings each and every time. When the power is cut it drops like a rock. I > know I have felt the gear flex more than once. I think a few landings like > that with a rigid gear the attach points would start to get loose.jas > > > > >I'm trying to weld the "t-shaped" landing gear members for the bungees-type > >gears on my Grega. Per the plans. Some of you may have run into this > >problem, too. > > > >The upper arm is .75 -.049 tubing. the lower arm is .875 - .035 tubing > >(note it's ID is plenty). The upper arm is supposed to telescope (slide) > >into the lower one. Small cross members are welded on both lower and upper > >arms about 5 inches or so apart to form a "T" on each member. The bungees > >then wrap around the T's providing a telescoping unit that ties the axle to > >the bottom of the fuse (OK , sort of, this is getting too hard to > >describe). > > > >Herein lies the problem. > > > >I am welding with Acetylene torch, so when I weld the T"s unto the LOWER > >leg (you know the bigger one that the smaller slides into), the slag(?) > >accumulates just enough on the inside to prohibit the upper leg from sliding > >freely. I'm not a bad welder so I feel like I am not putting too much heat > >into the tubing. It just seems that there should be a better way. > > > >Is there any sort of reamer that would be wide enough to run down through it > >(kind a like Roto Rooter for homebuilts) after the welding is complete? > >Could a machine shop do this. > >Would it be better to wire weld this part? > >I could just make it a FIXED gear Grega...... > > > >Thanks for the help, > >bert > > > > > > From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> > "piet" , > "piet aircamper" , > "5k" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fabric Work > > > Hi Guys > > I am now building my turtledeck and need to plan ahead, but have never tried > what I am doing. > > That "what" is I modified the original single-curve shape to get a headrest. > To save a bit of weight I would like to just do it "single layer" stringer > but I dont know if the fabric can be made to work. > > Can I just run the stringers from bulkead #1 to #2 in the dual curve shape > then continue with the single curve from #2 back, or do I have to do the > single curve and fabric it, then do the headrest. > > Mike > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > The more money you throw at them, > the faster they fly. > > IHA 110 > > From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > Jim, > > I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your plane > you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would > the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? > > I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more I > think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more > sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard > surface runways. > > Thanks! > Gary M. > > From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > > I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your > plane > >you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would > >the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? > > I have ridden, raced, abused and beat-up motorcyles since I was 12. Sarted > with a little Honda "minni-bike" (damn, I'd like ta have that thing again > ;-) Low riders, Cafe racers, hogs (best I ever had was a GSXR) ... the tires > can can take it. I have never had a blow-out. The side-load theory is > (*& %$. > > Just what do you think is happening to that tire in a 150mph curve on a > 600#machine with 200# of rider and 30# of fuel ????. Bends, > yes..flexes...yes. blows out...not unless its defective. How bout > potholes???, road breaks???? HARD breaking???? (DONT touch that front > lever....) > > On the otherhand, these morons in 4 wheel vehicals that dont see a > rider....2 hits was enough, I quit riding, but I trust the parts completly. > > > I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more > I > >think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more > >sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard > >surface runways. > > Ever seen a hard driven bike on grass???. Blacktop is what those tires were > deisgned for. > > I am using old honda wheels, hubs and brakes, spoked (prob old CB350 or 450) > and if I hit hard enough to break a wheel, I will be to busy healing to > care. > > Now, overall design... I am going to use the scout-type. The last thing ya > want in a taildragger is hit long grass with a cross axel. > > just my .02 > > Mike > > > >Thanks! > >Gary M. > > > > > > From: "Everett Perkins" <ev(at)clinic.net> > "piet aircamper" , > "5k" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fabric Work > > > Mike, I did my turtle back with white ceder strips over one inch blue foam > formers. There is a slight reverse curve behind the pilots head, done by > cutting the top center ceder strip from a wider strip with a band saw. (or a > hand held saber saw) The whole assembly including the ply end caps foam and > strips was about two pounds if memory serves me. Very strong by the way. I > have not yet covered but the plan is to stitch. Ev rws #306 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> > piet aircamper ; 5k > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:18 AM > Subject: RW: Fabric Work > > > Hi Guys > > > > I am now building my turtledeck and need to plan ahead, but have never > tried > > what I am doing. > > > > That "what" is I modified the original single-curve shape to get a > headrest. > > To save a bit of weight I would like to just do it "single layer" stringer > > but I dont know if the fabric can be made to work. > > > > Can I just run the stringers from bulkead #1 to #2 in the dual curve shape > > then continue with the single curve from #2 back, or do I have to do the > > single curve and fabric it, then do the headrest. > > > > Mike > - > > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > > The more money you throw at them, > > the faster they fly. > > > > IHA 110 > > > > This list is provided as a service to RagWing builders and the members > > of the list are responsible for their own comments. > > Archived on eScribe at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/rb/ > > To unsubscribe send mail to ragwing-requests(at)lists.zyx.net and include > > unsubscribe ragwing as the body. > > From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs > > > Conoly writes about a welding problem with the landing gear legs. > > The "ring" of extra metal that you are seeing when looking down the > welded tube is showing you that you have good weld penetration. > It's something that you want to see. Good, now the next thing to do > is to run a reamer down the tube to clean it up to allow the other > member to slide freely. If you don't have a reamer of the correct size > and length to do this then visit a nearby machine shop and ask them > to do it. Shouldn't cost too much and your smile will return. > > Rodger > Workin' on the wing, still. > > From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight axel L.G. > > > Mike wrote: > > "Now, overall design... I am going to use the scout-type. The last > thing ya want in a taildragger is hit long grass with a cross axel." > > Ahhhh, things begin to come clear, long grass, wheat, corn, ect. and > a straight axel... Now I understand the meaning of the term "Improved" > landing gear. (Get the tractor and shredder out guys.) > > Kinda like landing "across" the furrows of a plowed field. =8< > > Rodger > > From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear > legs. > > > Gary I don't think that the tires are the concern. I think it is the width > of the bearing area on motorcycle wheels that is the concern. The side > loading that the wheels have to endure on landings that are less than > perfect. If you never drift on landing the motorcycle wheels would be just > fine. Also the axle size will be something to consider. The axle should be > no less than 1 inch. in dia. My axle is 1 inch. But if I hadn't already had > wheels and axle I would have used 1 1/4 inch dia. axles. jas > > > > >Jim, > > > > I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your plane > >you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would > >the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? > > > > I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more I > >think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more > >sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard > >surface runways. > > > >Thanks! > >Gary M. > > > > > > From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Straight axel L.G. > > > Long grass ain't nothing. Ask Austin at FlaBob about how to taxi into the water > faucet hidden in the grass with straight axle landing gear....and it wasn't even all > that tall! > Warren. > > From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Straight axel L.G. > > > I dunno, I kinda like a view of the world inverted. > > But, there is a place and time for everything > > And a field aint the place. > > (damn, I miss that citabria) > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rodger & Betty <childsway@indian-creek.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight axel L.G. > > <childsway@indian-creek.net> > > > >Mike wrote: > > > >"Now, overall design... I am going to use the scout-type. The last > >thing ya want in a taildragger is hit long grass with a cross axel." > > > >Ahhhh, things begin to come clear, long grass, wheat, corn, ect. and > >a straight axel... Now I understand the meaning of the term "Improved" > >landing gear. (Get the tractor and shredder out guys.) > > > >Kinda like landing "across" the furrows of a plowed field. =8< > > > >Rodger > > > > > > From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gearlegs. > > > Hi Jim, > Have some Honda 90 trail bike front wheels, converted to 9 gauge stainless > steel spokes (36, good for 1000 lbs. each) at Buchanans, with a 5/8 solid > axle,with Dunlop 100/90 17 tires, good for 130 mph at 480 lbs each when hot. At > 40 mph cold, they are good for over 1000 lbs. each. > Had some similar concerns and solved my "mental problems" with these > experiments. Take both your 1" tube axle and a 5/8 solid axle and put them > securely in a vice. Borrow your brother-in-laws torque wrench (use my own?!) > and make up a bolt and/or nut fixture so that you can torque over each of these > axles and see which one goes first. > For side loads, go to a motocross ralley sometime and watch what these 200 > lb. guys do to the one (1) front wheel of a 500 lb bike going 2-3 times as fast > as you will ever land a piet. The spoke guys at Buchanan's laughingly suggest to > me that if I was able to fold over these spoke and rim assemblies, my post > hospital rehab would be of much more concern. > Warren. > > From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)accessus.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > Using motorcycle wheels is fine EXCEPT they do not have enough "dish" for > much side load. Spacing the bearings and the spoke flanges farther apart > solves the problem > > Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact! > (Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > > >Gary I don't think that the tires are the concern. I think it is the width > >of the bearing area on motorcycle wheels that is the concern. The side > >loading that the wheels have to endure on landings that are less than > >perfect. If you never drift on landing the motorcycle wheels would be just > >fine. Also the axle size will be something to consider. The axle should be > >no less than 1 inch. in dia. My axle is 1 inch. But if I hadn't already had > >wheels and axle I would have used 1 1/4 inch dia. axles. jas > > > > > > >> > >>Jim, > >> > >> I read your comments on the gear with great interest. I know on your > plane > >>you have the split gear and regular tires. Based on your experience would > >>the motorcyle type tires be tough enough to handle the abuse? > >> > >> I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the more > I > >>think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make more > >>sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard > >>surface runways. > >> > >>Thanks! > >>Gary M. > >> > >> > > > > > > From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > Mike, > > I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by a > woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on > motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! > > I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross when I > was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate too > see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of airplane > on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps in > this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead would > do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold up > if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated > aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to wonder > if they're up to that or not > > The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a > sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very much > impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you look > at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a road-race > bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk of > the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, how > much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass and > nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of it's > life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after landing, > to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface the > spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft > runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. > > Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know > Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler > style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels > themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of > rubber. > > But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke > wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! > > Two more cents. > > Gary M. > > From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: My web site is back up. > > > Some of you wanted to see my plane and website. I have returned it to the > net. Be aware that it is somewhat out of date, but there is some info on my > plane there that might be of interest. > > The new site name is: > > http://Aircamper.byu.edu > > Steve Eldredge > NX7229R > > From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > Ah, Gary... > > Lets get a couple of GSXR 1100's.....Or a Yamaha's ...or just good old fat > boys. I'll show ya how to put side loads on tires. On gravel roads....and > run so fast the boys with the flahsers dont even dream of keeping up. > > Flash foreward, wife and kids, and I am building the slowest thing in the > sky....but give me 2 wheels agian.... > > Old enough to know better, > too young to care. > > (Dad, at 73. got an 883 sportster for his last birthday. HIS last bike was a > '33 dkw ) > > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > > > >Mike, > > > >I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by a > >woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on > >motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! > > > > I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross when > I > >was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate too > >see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of airplane > >on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps > in > >this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead would > >do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold up > >if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated > >aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to wonder > >if they're up to that or not > > > > The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a > >sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very much > >impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you look > >at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a > road-race > >bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk of > >the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, how > >much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass > and > >nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of > it's > >life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after landing, > >to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface the > >spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft > >runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. > > > > Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know > >Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler > >style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels > >themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of > >rubber. > > > > But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke > >wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! > > > >Two more cents. > > > >Gary M. > > > > > > From: "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Guys with flashers > > > Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers and I > and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them still > ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't keep > up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think how > many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if needed > and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up with > normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun part > of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, > but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my > balloon 800 x 4's. > Copinfo(at)home.com > Tim Cunningham > 1117 SE 80th Street > Runnells, Iowa 50237 (515) 237-1510 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 4:06 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > > > Ah, Gary... > > > > Lets get a couple of GSXR 1100's.....Or a Yamaha's ...or just good old > fat > > boys. I'll show ya how to put side loads on tires. On gravel roads....and > > run so fast the boys with the flahsers dont even dream of keeping up. > > > > Flash foreward, wife and kids, and I am building the slowest thing in the > > sky....but give me 2 wheels agian.... > > > > Old enough to know better, > > too young to care. > > > > (Dad, at 73. got an 883 sportster for his last birthday. HIS last bike was > a > > '33 dkw ) > > > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:23 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike, > > > > > >I agree with you on the 4-wheel drivers, my brother was almost killed by > a > > >woman who was meesing with her kids and not looking for riders on > > >motorcycles. I gave up streetbikes a long time ago! > > > > > > I have seen a lot of cycle action, though. I used to race motocross > when > > I > > >was younger, and yes, those tires do take a lot of abuse, But I'd hate > too > > >see one of my old knobbies if I hit the concrete with 1200 lbs of > airplane > > >on one wheel in a crosswind! I also don't have tire screws or tire clamps > > in > > >this plane, I had those on my race bikes, so who knows what that bead > would > > >do given enough pressure I wonder how well A Harley's tires would hold > up > > >if you dropped it straight down 5 or 6 feet onto concrete? Certificated > > >aircraft and their tires have to sustain a 10 foot fall, I've got to > wonder > > >if they're up to that or not > > > > > > The loads you mentioned were load imposed in a building manner, not a > > >sudden shock like a botched landing would be. I doubt if there is very > much > > >impact pressure on a 150 MPH street tire. As far as side loads, if you > look > > >at the way a motorcycle turns, there is little side load even on a > > road-race > > >bike. To turn one of those, you have to lean the bike over, so the bulk > of > > >the weight is still pushed straight up though the tire. Another thing, > how > > >much tread is on the ground on cycle tires vs aircraft type tired? Grass > > and > > >nostalgia are nice, but the reality is, my plane will spend most all of > > it's > > >life on hard-surface runways, and I like directional control after > landing, > > >to me more rubber can only help. I also think that given a soft surface > the > > >spoke wheels/cycle tires might be better than "regular" tires on a soft > > >runway, although, they'd tend to sink in worse. > > > > > > Anyway, cycle tires will probably do the job, maybe they won't. I know > > >Air-Hawks or Flight Customs will, and I feel like some of the 4-wheeler > > >style tires will, too, I'm not really worried about the spoked wheels > > >themselves being able to take the load, just that skinny little strip of > > >rubber. > > > > > > But even given all those arguments, I'm still considering the spoke > > >wheels/cycle tires - they just look soooo cool! > > > > > >Two more cents. > > > > > >Gary M. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> > Subject: ###Re: Pietenpol-List: Guys with flashers > > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Cunningham wrote: > > > > > Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers and I > > and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them still > > ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't keep > > up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think how > > many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if needed > > and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up with > > normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun part > > of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, > > but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my > > balloon 800 x 4's. > > Copinfo(at)home.com > > Tim Cunningham > > I've been watching the Paris Ducar rally over the past couple of evenings. > Consistently, over the long runs, the bikes are off the pace of the "cars" > (actually, the cars are more like SUV's) by a significant amount. I was > rather suprised by this! > > Back to Piets... The wheels that these guys use take an awful beating over > the course. 10' drops are seen quite often and yes, the entire bike > sometimes lands sideways and on one wheel similar to the described > crosswind landing! Granted, the weight is probably about half of a loaded > Piet but the speed is around the 130-150 kph or around 2-3 times that of > the Piet. They may be worth a look. SpeedVision has been carrying the > races all this week. > > Speaking of SpeedVision...I saw an interesting show last night called > "Airshow World". It looks to be a weekly show on SpeedVision. Anyway, they > were visit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Subject: Motorcycle Wheels
From: Thomas E Bowdler <bowdler(at)juno.com>
Fellow Listers, Use motorcycle wheels if you like the looks, big fat tires if you don't, both will be fine. The Pietenpol I'm flying now was built by the Hostein Bros. of Ontario Canada in 1972 and has in excess of 1200 hours on it. It has split gear and fat tires. My friend Brian Kenney has been flying since 1983 from a paved airport with Honda rear wheels and straight axle gear. No problems whether pavement or grass. Brian says you can't tell the difference. The Piet I'm building (should fly this summer then the other will be for sale) will have wires on straight gear like Brian's. I have sketches I made and a narrative of his wheel and brake set up for anyone who wants it just send me your snail mail off list. As far as the side loading concerns there is a straight axle, motorcycle wheeled Model A Piet hereabouts that had engine trouble on a test flight and landed hard sideways on one wheel and the wing tip breaking the fuselage at the gear attach points plus other damage (the pilot walked away) and the motorcycle wheel rim became decidedly S shaped but did not collapse! There has been so much conjecture for so many years about what does and doesn't work. Shouldn't we base our opinions on real-world experience? IMHO, keep it simple, keep it light and Follow The Plans! Off the soapbox, Tom > I had thought about going with straight axle/spoked wheels, but the >more I >think about it, the better the split/ballon type tire seems to make >more >sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a steady diet of hard > >surface runways. >Gary I don't think that the tires are the concern. I think it is the >width >of the bearing area on motorcycle wheels that is the concern. The >side >loading that the wheels have to endure on landings that are less than >perfect. If you never drift on landing the motorcycle wheels would be >just >fine. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: Lawrence V Williams <lnawms(at)juno.com>
Please UNSUBSCRIBE me. For the past several months I have been laboring under the misconception that this was a Pietenpol BUILDERS list. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Lawrence, I think the way that's quickest way to unsubscribe is by going to: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Then you can just follow the directions that they have there. Good Luck, Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Awe Larry,
Date: Jan 28, 2000
just what happens when it's too cold for builders to build, they just start to BS. Finish your plane, fly the heck out of it and sit back and enjoy the rest just talkin. Steve E. PS. Thinking Model A Sedan would be a cool restoration project.... Please UNSUBSCRIBE me. For the past several months I have been laboring under the misconception that this was a Pietenpol BUILDERS list. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Subject: Re: Motorcycle Wheels
Tom, Could you please send me your narrative of the wheels? My address is: Tom Travis 13532 Braemar Drive Dallas, Texas 75234 Thanks, Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Steve E's Lift Struts
Date: Jan 28, 2000
For the record agian :) My lift struts are an aluminum extrusion from a local company that discontinued them as part of a prototype chair line they were going to do. A fellow working at the chair and table company happened to show them to me and I used them for struts. Unfortunatly the only other set was given away as well, and I haven't been able to find any more. Stevee ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: william hutson <wihutson(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Motorcycle Wheels
I would also appreciate the sketches and narrative of the landing gear and wheels. My S-Mail address is: William J. Hutson 9961B Sturgis Ave. Ellsworth AFB SD 57706 Thanks! Bye the way what does "IMHO" stand for? Bill IHA #7 --- Thomas E Bowdler wrote: > Bowdler > > Fellow Listers, > Use motorcycle wheels if you like the looks, > big fat tires if you > don't, both will be fine. The Pietenpol I'm > flying now was built by > the Hostein Bros. of Ontario Canada in 1972 and has > in excess of 1200 > hours on it. It has split gear and fat tires. My > friend Brian Kenney > has been flying since 1983 from a paved airport with > Honda rear wheels > and straight axle gear. No problems whether > pavement or grass. Brian > says you can't tell the difference. > The Piet I'm building (should fly this summer > then the other will be > for sale) will have wires on straight gear like > Brian's. I have sketches > I made and a narrative of his wheel and brake set up > for anyone who wants > it just send me your snail mail off list. > As far as the side loading concerns there is a > straight axle, > motorcycle wheeled Model A Piet hereabouts that had > engine trouble on a > test flight and landed hard sideways on one wheel > and the wing tip > breaking the fuselage at the gear attach points plus > other damage (the > pilot walked away) and the motorcycle wheel rim > became decidedly S shaped > but did not collapse! > There has been so much conjecture for so many > years about what does > and doesn't work. Shouldn't we base our opinions on > real-world > experience? IMHO, keep it simple, keep it light and > Follow The Plans! > Off the soapbox, > Tom > > > I had thought about going with straight > axle/spoked wheels, but the > >more I > >think about it, the better the split/ballon type > tire seems to make > >more > >sense. Especially since I'll be feeding my plane a > steady diet of hard > > > >surface runways. > >Gary I don't think that the tires are the concern. > I think it is the > >width > >of the bearing area on motorcycle wheels that is > the concern. The > >side > >loading that the wheels have to endure on landings > that are less than > >perfect. If you never drift on landing the > motorcycle wheels would be > >just > >fine. > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Guys with flashers
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Ken, When they said 5 pounds per yard, being England, they were probably talking price. walt -----Original Message----- From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: ###Re: Pietenpol-List: Guys with flashers > >On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Cunningham wrote: > >> >> Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers and I >> and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them still >> ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't keep >> up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think how >> many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if needed >> and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up with >> normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun part >> of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, >> but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my >> balloon 800 x 4's. >> Copinfo(at)home.com >> Tim Cunningham > >I've been watching the Paris Ducar rally over the past couple of evenings. >Consistently, over the long runs, the bikes are off the pace of the "cars" >(actually, the cars are more like SUV's) by a significant amount. I was >rather suprised by this! > >Back to Piets... The wheels that these guys use take an awful beating over >the course. 10' drops are seen quite often and yes, the entire bike >sometimes lands sideways and on one wheel similar to the described >crosswind landing! Granted, the weight is probably about half of a loaded >Piet but the speed is around the 130-150 kph or around 2-3 times that of >the Piet. They may be worth a look. SpeedVision has been carrying the >races all this week. > >Speaking of SpeedVision...I saw an interesting show last night called >"Airshow World". It looks to be a weekly show on SpeedVision. Anyway, they >were visiting the Shuttleworth Air Museum in England where they specialize >in planes dating from 1909 to 1940. THe currently have the oldest flying >airplane in exsistance, a 1909 Bleriot, I believe it was. > >Anyway, as they progressed through the collection they came to Miles >Aircraft's first plane, a biplane designed for racing in the early 20's. >They are still restoring the plane and they were talking to the engineer >coordinating the rebuild. He said that the original was covered in Irish >linen but due to the cost, they were using American Ceconite. That was all >well and good until he went on to say that one of the Ceconite's >advantages was it's light weight of only 5 POUNDS PER SQUARE YARD!!! Now >let's see, am I going to end up with a 450 lb covering job (5 lbs x 45 >liniar yards x 2 yards wide). If so, I may need a second Franklin ;-). I >suspect that he had the decimal place wrong and it was POINT 5 lbs/sq. yd. >45 lbs seems more realistic. > >Anyway, if you happen to see the show listed, it's well worth watching. >Here, it's on SpeedVision on Wednesday nights along with Sport Flying >(EAA's video magazine), Planes of Fame, World of Flying and Wings! I >generally don't get much done on Wednesday nights ;-) > >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) >Calgary, Alberta, Canada >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Subject: Re: Steve E's Lift Struts
Snif! Thanks Steveee. > > > For the record agian :) > > My lift struts are an aluminum extrusion from a local company that > discontinued them as part of a prototype chair line they were going > to do. > A fellow working at the chair and table company happened to show > them to me > and I used them for struts. Unfortunatly the only other set was > given away > as well, and I haven't been able to find any more. > > > Stevee > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Guys with flashers
That very well could have been as the comment was something like "it's lightweight [at / and] only 5 lbs per pound. Could easily have been either. Ken On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, walter evans wrote: > > Ken, > When they said 5 pounds per yard, being England, they were probably talking > price. > walt > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:45 PM > Subject: ###Re: Pietenpol-List: Guys with flashers > > > > > >On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Cunningham wrote: > > > >> > >> Mike I couldn't help commenting. I'm one of those guy's with flashers > and I > >> and bunch of my cohorts have spent our time on bikes and many of them > still > >> ride their Harley's. I've never had anyone go so fast that I wouldn't > keep > >> up. Never lost a chase in my 30 years of police work. I hate to think > how > >> many squad cars I wrecked, but everyone was caught, hospitalized if > needed > >> and jailed. Now I fly the Piet, low and slow and I can't even keep up > with > >> normal freeway traffic. At least there's no police brutality (the fun > part > >> of the job) when I land. Seriously, I like the look of motorcyle wheels, > >> but some of the places I've landed just wouldn't do. I'll stick with my > >> balloon 800 x 4's. > >> Copinfo(at)home.com > >> Tim Cunningham > > > >I've been watching the Paris Ducar rally over the past couple of evenings. > >Consistently, over the long runs, the bikes are off the pace of the "cars" > >(actually, the cars are more like SUV's) by a significant amount. I was > >rather suprised by this! > > > >Back to Piets... The wheels that these guys use take an awful beating over > >the course. 10' drops are seen quite often and yes, the entire bike > >sometimes lands sideways and on one wheel similar to the described > >crosswind landing! Granted, the weight is probably about half of a loaded > >Piet but the speed is around the 130-150 kph or around 2-3 times that of > >the Piet. They may be worth a look. SpeedVision has been carrying the > >races all this week. > > > >Speaking of SpeedVision...I saw an interesting show last night called > >"Airshow World". It looks to be a weekly show on SpeedVision. Anyway, they > >were visiting the Shuttleworth Air Museum in England where they specialize > >in planes dating from 1909 to 1940. THe currently have the oldest flying > >airplane in exsistance, a 1909 Bleriot, I believe it was. > > > >Anyway, as they progressed through the collection they came to Miles > >Aircraft's first plane, a biplane designed for racing in the early 20's. > >They are still restoring the plane and they were talking to the engineer > >coordinating the rebuild. He said that the original was covered in Irish > >linen but due to the cost, they were using American Ceconite. That was all > >well and good until he went on to say that one of the Ceconite's > >advantages was it's light weight of only 5 POUNDS PER SQUARE YARD!!! Now > >let's see, am I going to end up with a 450 lb covering job (5 lbs x 45 > >liniar yards x 2 yards wide). If so, I may need a second Franklin ;-). I > >suspect that he had the decimal place wrong and it was POINT 5 lbs/sq. yd. > >45 lbs seems more realistic. > > > >Anyway, if you happen to see the show listed, it's well worth watching. > >Here, it's on SpeedVision on Wednesday nights along with Sport Flying > >(EAA's video magazine), Planes of Fame, World of Flying and Wings! I > >generally don't get much done on Wednesday nights ;-) > > > >Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) > >Calgary, Alberta, Canada > >Christavia MK 1 C-GREN > ><http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > > > > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 C-GREN <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: robin goodfellow <pietenpolsrule(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Price heads???
does anyone know where you can get a aluminum Ford "A" head? Jim Hammond asked me to post this so either contact him or me if you know where to buy one or have one you want to sell. Thanks. _danbadger IHA #111 EAA #613769 AMA #668066 "KEEP THE ANTIQUES FLYING" Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conrad, Bart D" <Bart.Conrad(at)NA.BOEING.COM>
Subject: MOTORCYCLE WHEEL SKETCHES
Date: Jan 28, 2000
I'd like a copy of the subject sketches mentioned by Tom Bowdler. My E-mail is bart.conrad(at)na.boeing.com Thanks, Bart ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Lift Struts
Got to http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html and smile again! Cheers, Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet"
Subject: Turtledeck Stringers
Date: Jan 28, 2000
What is everybody using for thier stringers. 1/4" x 1" seems a bit heafty. I was thinking along the lines of 3/4" x 1/4" ceder. Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Subject: Re: Motorcycle Wheels
Tom, I'd really like to have a copy of the drawings you mentioned showing wheel and brakes on the straight-axle Piet. My address is: Don Cooley 2745 Laurel Dr. Fairfield, CA94533 I'll cheerfully re-imburse any cost you incur. Thanks for your help. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Turtledeck Stringers
what do the plans say. I think its clearly marked. --- Mike Lund wrote: > > > What is everybody using for thier stringers. 1/4" x > 1" seems a bit heafty. I > was thinking along the lines of 3/4" x 1/4" ceder. > > Mike > Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > The more money you throw at them, > the faster they fly. > > IHA 110 > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Subject: Re: Lift Struts
Warren: Thank you very much! Have you heard of using round tubing and glueing something like wood to the trailing side and making yer own streamlined tubine?? Steve writes: > > > > Got to > http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html > > and smile again! > Cheers, > Warren > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Domenico Bellissimo" <adbell(at)yesic.com>
Subject: Re: Turtledeck Stringers
Date: Jan 28, 2000
That's what I used 1/4 X 3/4. It's a little week in the middle, and you certainly can't sit on the Turtle deck just aft of the pilot's seat. To circumvent this problem Brian Kenney suggested I use 1/6 ply glued to the top of the stringers and sandwich this with light corrugated cardboard. Boy did this ever stiffen that area. Sitting was no problemo after that. I took the cardboard all the way to the first bay aft of the pilots' seat. I closed the end. Added a lockable door on the pilots' seat back and used the compartment for my goggles, gloves or anything else I wanted to lock away. Brian's suggestion was a result of a little damage from something inside the glove box, that hit the fabric on a hard landing. This sure works for me. Regards, Domenic ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Lift Struts
Sure. The old timers used balsa wood and wrapped the strut with lite weight fabric, dope and painted it. Personally, for that much time, labor and materials, I would rather go dumpster diving for cans and buy one of these alum. struts...{;~) Warren vistin(at)juno.com wrote: > > Warren: > Thank you very much! Have you heard of using round tubing and glueing > something like wood to the trailing side and making yer own streamlined > tubine?? > > Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Lift Struts
Date: Jan 28, 2000
I used the stuts from Sky-tek, very economical. Doug Hunt -----Original Message----- From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Lift Struts > >Warren: >Thank you very much! Have you heard of using round tubing and glueing >something like wood to the trailing side and making yer own streamlined >tubine?? > >Steve > >writes: >> >> >> >> Got to >> http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html >> >> and smile again! >> Cheers, >> Warren >> >> >> >> >> > >Steve W GN-1 builder >IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "SAM & JAN MARINUCCI" <srmjem(at)ezol.com>
Subject: Re: Lift Struts
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Just a thought.........are aluminum lift struts okay to use instead of 4130 steel struts? Sam -----Original Message----- From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 5:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lift Struts > > >Got to >http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html > >and smile again! >Cheers, >Warren > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Turtledeck Stringers
Date: Jan 28, 2000
Mike,i used the 1/4x3/4,and just behind the pilot,i wrapped a fairly wide stip of 3/32 okume(spelling?)marine mahogany,you can sit on it witout even a creek,will send you a pic directly. Doug Hunt..... -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 3:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turtled > >What is everybody using for thier stringers. 1/4" x 1" seems a bit heafty. I >was thinking along the lines of 3/4" x 1/4" ceder. > >Mike >Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >The more money you throw at them, >the faster they fly. > >IHA 110 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)accessus.net>
Subject: Re: Lift Struts
Date: Jan 28, 2000
If they are sized right even wood will work. Stinson uses Aluminum struts, Luscombe used aluminum struts, even Cessna uses aluminum struts. I probably missed some as well. Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact! (Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com) -----Original Message----- From: SAM & JAN MARINUCCI <srmjem(at)ezol.com> Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Lift Struts > >Just a thought.........are aluminum lift struts okay to use instead of 4130 >steel struts? > Sam >-----Original Message----- >From: Warren Shoun <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 5:34 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lift Struts > > >> >> >>Got to >>http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html >> >>and smile again! >>Cheers, >>Warren >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: Ron Butcher <rbutch(at)inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Motorcycle Wheels
Tom... Sounds like your ideas on motorcycle wheels has some interest. If you would mail me (i.e. snail mail) a copy of your sketches, I'd be glad to scan them and re-post them for all to see. Ron Butcher 406 N. Gratton Rd Turlock, Ca 95380 TomTravis(at)aol.com wrote: > > Tom, > > Could you please send me your narrative of the wheels? My address is: > > Tom Travis > 13532 Braemar Drive > Dallas, Texas 75234 > > > Thanks, > > > Tom > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: fishin <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Motorcycle Wheels
> > Thanks! Bye the way what does "IMHO" stand for? > > Bill > IHA #7 > In My Humble Opinion JoeC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re: Lift Struts -Center Section??
Date: Jan 28, 2000
These look promising for wing struts but the engineer comes out in me.. 1) What about for the centersection struts?? If they'll work for highly loaded wing struts (handling cantilever loads) shouldnt they easily handle centersection loads, too. Hmmm. 2) Are the allowable tensil and compressive loads on these the same as (or close to) that of 4130? Does anybody have this data? Looks like the jury struts would take care of any stiffness problems. 3) What about the attach points? On my Grega plans it shows some of the attach points on the ends of the struts that are steel bushings with a strap bent over the bushing and welded to the strut. No way to weld aluminimum to steel bushings, so I assume that some sort of bushing assembly would just be bolted to the aluminum strut on the ends??? 4) Can these be painted or powder coated the same as steel. I guess so?? Is corrosion any more or less a concern than rust would be on steel struts? 5) I am concerned about bolt hole elongation, cracking or weakening if you have to bolt as in 3 above.. Does anybody else wonder about these things? Thanks, Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lift Struts > > > Got to > http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html > > and smile again! > Cheers, > Warren > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Price heads???
In a message dated 1/28/00 3:26:07 PM Central Standard Time, pietenpolsrule(at)yahoo.com writes: << does anyone know where you can get a aluminum Ford "A" head? Jim Hammond asked me to post this so either contact him or me if you know where to buy one or have one you want to sell. Thanks. _danbadger >> I just called them 2 days age, and they told me the aluminum head wouldn't be available till march. He said lots of people want's 'em. Their name is: Daniel R. Price 7320 Sunbury Rd. Westerville, OH 43081-9403 (614) 891-2882 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2000
From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Landing gear attach to axle
Question for the group- I am building a modified Cub split gear, and am to the point where I need to attach the "suspension" spring struts to the axle. I milled a slot in the stut, and then welded a .090 U-shaped fitting in the slot, as per the plans. I think I have 2 choices: 1. Use a 5/16 bolt through the brace that is welded between the gear leg and the axle. 2. Use a 5/16 bolt through the axle, with the strut fitting connected to this bolt. Would the strength of the bolt be strong enough without bending? I have seen it done both ways, but am wondering about the opinions from you experts if there are advantages to one or the other. Thanks! Al Swanson swans071(at)tc.umn.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fat Tires al ...la... kitfox
Date: Jan 28, 2000
I have been looking into the fat tire idea as used by Leon Stefon on his Piet. And I think that I have found a source of 20x7x8 smooth Kitfox tires as he told us about in in the one page flyer he sent around. Today I wrote dresser tire, and received an e-mail reply. Sales(at)Dresser.com said they could supply the 20x7x8 tires for 69.95 each...smooth, and shippment would be about 3 days. For anyone interested in fat air wheel type tyres, this may be it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Fat Tires al ...la... kitfox
How bout wheels?? writes: > > > I have been looking into the fat tire idea as used by Leon Stefon on > his > Piet. And I think that I have found a source of 20x7x8 smooth Kitfox > tires > as he told us about in in the one page flyer he sent around. > > Today I wrote dresser tire, and received an e-mail reply. > > Sales(at)Dresser.com > > said they could supply the 20x7x8 tires for 69.95 each...smooth, and > > shippment would be about 3 days. > > For anyone interested in fat air wheel type tyres, this may be it. > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Rib stiching.
Steve, I wouldn't glue the fabric to the ribs, but would rib lace it. Rib lacing is not all that hard to do, but it is hard to explain. I owned a dope and fabric shop years ago and have done several wings, but everytime I do it again I get out my A.C. 43.13-1a, chapter 1 and look at the picture again. Buy this book (there are others that show the same picture) and follow the illustration. I used to hire a helper and could stitch a Piper wing in about a day or less. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Whats Best???
Mike, Don't glue gussets onto the joints that are to be covered with a plywood skin. This skin itself will become the gusset. Gussets still need to be glued on the inside though, so that there is a gusset on both sides. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Fir Piet
Tom, The leading of the tail control surfaces and trailing edges of the stabilizers, the parts that face each other and are hinged, are the same. They are tee shaped and are not rounded. The leading edge of the stabilizers are rounded off and the trailing edges of the control surfaces are shaped like a rounded arrow head. Orin Hoopman's plans show the cross sectional shape of these members. Just make the edges and trailing edges streamlined when assembled and you will be alright. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Floor
Mike, I think you might run into problems with the flight control system if you glue the floorboard on top the members. The aileron bellcrank is stopped by the floorboard according to the plans and you would lose an inch and a half this way. Also, the side mounted interconnect tube between the front and aft joy stick has clearance problems with the front seat diagonal braces -- at least our's did. It does sound like an interesting idea though. Our fuselage is all but complete and there is one of those ash cross supports for the landing gear where my heels would hit when I work the rudder bar. I've sat in the seat a lot and worked the rudder bar and I don't think ( I hope anyway) that this will be a problem, but it has given me some concern. Glueing the plywood on top would give a nice smooth floor inside. I don't know that dirt or water accumulation would be all that much of a problem. It's normal to vacuum out the floor of a plane during inspections and it would be best to make cockpit covers to close the plane when parked outside if it should rain. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: VROOM, VROOM, VROOM
Great feeling, isn't it? John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com writes: > > >Well Guys, today, for the 1st time, I got into my airplane. > >There is no seat yet, no skin, just a complete fuse truss--I just HAD >to >climb in and stand roughly where the drivers chair will be going. > >What a great feeling, more so because its my own design. And now that >I have >the actual perspective from THE position, I can figure out exactly >where to >put the bombsite > >Mike > >Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >The more money you throw at them, >the faster they fly. > >IHA 110 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Rudder bar bolt size
Don't change the plans, follow the directions. I keep hearing complaints about the plans and don't know what all the problems are about. We've found very few mistakes or omissions. Also, the pivot bolt should be brazed in place, not welded. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com writes: > > > >Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall >thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. > >Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair >amount of abuse... > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
fly5k(at)listbot.com, Piet_Builder(at)listbot.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Tail wheel??
I have seen some of yalls planes with tail wheels, and some with tail skids. What do yall preferr. I am building the GN-1 and want some feedback on what is better, (tail wheel or tail skid, Locked or freewheeling). Thanks Steve Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Cunningham" <copinfo(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Tail wheel??
Date: Jan 29, 2000
I have the Scott 2000, but any tailwheel should do. I couldn't imagine trying to taxi with a skid. I guess if you want you could use one. The wheel doesn't need to lock because the Pietenpol tracks very well. I had a locking tailwheel on a Baby Great Lakes and may on the Pitts because they are so short coupled that directional control could pose a bit of a problem. Copinfo(at)home.com Tim Cunningham 1117 SE 80th Street Runnells, Iowa 50237 (515) 237-1510 ----- Original Message ----- From: <vistin(at)juno.com> ; Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail wheel?? > > I have seen some of yalls planes with tail wheels, and some with tail > skids. What do yall preferr. I am building the GN-1 and want some > feedback on what is better, (tail wheel or tail skid, Locked or > freewheeling). > > Thanks > Steve > > Steve W GN-1 builder > IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet" , "5k"
Subject: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Hi Guys In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used a hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The rest just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just using the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of my own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount it. I am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, but a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier to install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I end up carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. Ideas? Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"5k"
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Mike, I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he designed, "pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the skid is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first project ( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured to a "V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" block from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is alot of leverage there. I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered tail wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. walt -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> ; 5k Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >Hi Guys > >In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used a >hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The rest >just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. > >What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just using >the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of my >own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). > >My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount it. I >am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, but >a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. > >I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier to >install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I end up >carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. > >Ideas? > >Mike >Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >The more money you throw at them, >the faster they fly. > >IHA 110 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Thanks Walt. I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the same way BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what they have for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. Mike -----Original Message----- From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> ; 5k Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >Mike, >I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only >adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he designed, >"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the skid >is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first project >( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured to a >"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" block >from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is alot >of leverage there. >I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered tail >wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. >walt >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >To: piet aircamper ; piet >; 5k >Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > > >> >>Hi Guys >> >>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used a >>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The rest >>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >> >>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just using >>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of my >>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >> >>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount it. >I >>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, but >>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >> >>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier to >>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I end >up >>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. >> >>Ideas? >> >>Mike >>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>The more money you throw at them, >>the faster they fly. >> >>IHA 110 >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2000
From: Carl Loar <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: wood
Hello, what a great place for Piet Info. I'm just starting this project and was wondering what the best source for wood for the Piet would be. Carl Loar ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2000
From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Mike- If you are looking for a coil spring, I bought mine at a motorcycle salvage yard. It was from the front shock strut. It was about 24 inches long, so I just cut it short, for a spare. Cost me $10.00. Al Swanson > >Thanks Walt. > >I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the same way >BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what they have >for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. > >Mike >-----Original Message----- >From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; piet >; 5k >Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > > > >> >>Mike, >>I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only >>adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >>Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he designed, >>"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the >skid >>is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first project >>( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured to a >>"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" >block >>from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is >alot >>of leverage there. >>I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered tail >>wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. >>walt >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >>To: piet aircamper ; piet >>; 5k >>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >> >> >>> >>>Hi Guys >>> >>>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used a >>>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The rest >>>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >>> >>>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just using >>>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of my >>>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >>> >>>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount it. >>I >>>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, >but >>>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >>> >>>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier to >>>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I end >>up >>>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. >>> >>>Ideas? >>> >>>Mike >>>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>>The more money you throw at them, >>>the faster they fly. >>> >>>IHA 110 >>> >>> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: wood
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Hi Carl... That is the $10000000000000000000 question Some guys swear by certified wood only (go to Aircraft Spruce and Specialty for that) some guys use the local lumber yard. I have even heard of one guy who grew and harvested his own (poplar). They have been built from just about every wood known to modern man, and a few types long extinct . Get the EAA wood books, and go to http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm To get the FPL wood properties info. Those 2 will let ya do all the materials substitutions your heart desires (meaning ya can use the lacal lumberyard ;-) Also go to http://www.moneypit.net/~pratt/ac43/ to get the FAA ac 43-whatever (acceptable techniques and practises) some very good info in it. (I am using 3/4" square ash with birch ply--a flying tank ;-) Mike -----Original Message----- From: Carl Loar <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 7:39 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood > >Hello, what a great place for Piet Info. I'm just starting this project and >was wondering what the best source for wood for the Piet would be. >Carl Loar > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
"piet aircamper" , "piet" , "5k"
Subject: Waste of time
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Anybody feel like wasting a few hours on a cheesy movie with a bad script, but good planes Iron Eagle IV is on ONTV, 215 on express-vu (i thinks its the Anick sattelite.... the new one that went up last summer anyway. Mike Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. The more money you throw at them, the faster they fly. IHA 110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 29, 2000
I will give you the John Deere part number if you like for the spring. Doug Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >Mike- If you are looking for a coil spring, I bought mine at a motorcycle >salvage yard. It was from the front shock strut. It was about 24 inches >long, so I just cut it short, for a spare. Cost me $10.00. > >Al Swanson > > >> >>Thanks Walt. >> >>I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the same way >>BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what they have >>for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. >> >>Mike >>-----Original Message----- >>From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; piet >>; 5k >>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >> >> >> >>> >>>Mike, >>>I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only >>>adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >>>Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he designed, >>>"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the >>skid >>>is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first project >>>( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured to a >>>"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" >>block >>>from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is >>alot >>>of leverage there. >>>I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered tail >>>wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. >>>walt >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >>>To: piet aircamper ; piet >>>; 5k >>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Hi Guys >>>> >>>>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used a >>>>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The rest >>>>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >>>> >>>>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just using >>>>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of my >>>>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >>>> >>>>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount it. >>>I >>>>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, >>but >>>>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >>>> >>>>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier to >>>>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I end >>>up >>>>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. >>>> >>>>Ideas? >>>> >>>>Mike >>>>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>>>The more money you throw at them, >>>>the faster they fly. >>>> >>>>IHA 110 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2000
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: wood
Best deal that I found was Western Aircraft Supply in Calgary. With a little digging I can probably even find the address. It was about $1500 US + $100 shipping to Rochester, NY. Let me know if you want me to go looking for the address. Dave > >Hello, what a great place for Piet Info. I'm just starting this project and >was wondering what the best source for wood for the Piet would be. >Carl Loar > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vistin(at)juno.com
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Doug: Please give me the part number. Thanks Steve > > I will give you the John Deere part number if you like for the > spring. > Doug Hunt > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > > > > > > >Mike- If you are looking for a coil spring, I bought mine at a > motorcycle > >salvage yard. It was from the front shock strut. It was about 24 > inches > >long, so I just cut it short, for a spare. Cost me $10.00. > > > >Al Swanson > > > > > > >> > >>Thanks Walt. > >> > >>I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the > same way > >>BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what > they > have > >>for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. > >> > >>Mike > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> > >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; > piet > >>; 5k > >>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM > >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>>Mike, > >>>I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail > assy( only > >>>adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). > >>>Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he > designed, > >>>"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust > of the > >>skid > >>>is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my > first > project > >>>( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is > secured to > a > >>>"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear > the "V" > >>block > >>>from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. > There is > >>alot > >>>of leverage there. > >>>I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and > cantalevered > tail > >>>wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it > alone. > >>>walt > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> > >>>To: piet aircamper ; piet > >>>; 5k > >>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM > >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>>>Hi Guys > >>>> > >>>>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- > 2/3 used > a > >>>>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. > The > rest > >>>>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. > >>>> > >>>>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, > just > using > >>>>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for > some of > my > >>>>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). > >>>> > >>>>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will > mount > it. > >>>I > >>>>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil > spring, > >>but > >>>>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. > >>>> > >>>>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot > easier > to > >>>>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself > if I > end > >>>up > >>>>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme > tail. > >>>> > >>>>Ideas? > >>>> > >>>>Mike > >>>>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. > >>>>The more money you throw at them, > >>>>the faster they fly. > >>>> > >>>>IHA 110 > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Steve W GN-1 builder IHA #6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Thanks Doug, I'd appreciate it.---Ya dont happen to know the compresson value on it?... This thing will have a tail weight of around 150-170# at gross, so a bit beefier spring than the normal scout is called for. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Doug <ve6zh(at)oanet.com> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 8:45 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >I will give you the John Deere part number if you like for the spring. >Doug Hunt >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:12 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > > > >> >>Mike- If you are looking for a coil spring, I bought mine at a motorcycle >>salvage yard. It was from the front shock strut. It was about 24 inches >>long, so I just cut it short, for a spare. Cost me $10.00. >> >>Al Swanson >> >> >>> >>>Thanks Walt. >>> >>>I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the same way >>>BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what they >have >>>for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. >>> >>>Mike >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; piet >>>; 5k >>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM >>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Mike, >>>>I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only >>>>adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >>>>Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he designed, >>>>"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the >>>skid >>>>is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first >project >>>>( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured to >a >>>>"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" >>>block >>>>from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is >>>alot >>>>of leverage there. >>>>I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered >tail >>>>wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. >>>>walt >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >>>>To: piet aircamper ; piet >>>>; 5k >>>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >>>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hi Guys >>>>> >>>>>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used >a >>>>>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The >rest >>>>>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >>>>> >>>>>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just >using >>>>>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of >my >>>>>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >>>>> >>>>>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount >it. >>>>I >>>>>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, >>>but >>>>>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >>>>> >>>>>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier >to >>>>>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I >end >>>>up >>>>>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. >>>>> >>>>>Ideas? >>>>> >>>>>Mike >>>>>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>>>>The more money you throw at them, >>>>>the faster they fly. >>>>> >>>>>IHA 110 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lund" <crafters(at)elgin.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 29, 2000
oooooops-- That shoulda been 115-130#.... Thats what happens when doing the checkbook and the e-mail at the same time. ;-) Mike -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 9:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >Thanks Doug, I'd appreciate it.---Ya dont happen to know the compresson >value on it?... > >This thing will have a tail weight of around 150-170# at gross, so a bit >beefier spring than the normal scout is called for. > >Mike >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug <ve6zh(at)oanet.com> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 8:45 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > > >> >>I will give you the John Deere part number if you like for the spring. >>Doug Hunt >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:12 PM >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >> >> >> >>> >>>Mike- If you are looking for a coil spring, I bought mine at a motorcycle >>>salvage yard. It was from the front shock strut. It was about 24 inches >>>long, so I just cut it short, for a spare. Cost me $10.00. >>> >>>Al Swanson >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Thanks Walt. >>>> >>>>I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the same way >>>>BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what they >>have >>>>for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. >>>> >>>>Mike >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >>>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; piet >>>>; 5k >>>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM >>>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Mike, >>>>>I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only >>>>>adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >>>>>Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he >designed, >>>>>"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the >>>>skid >>>>>is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first >>project >>>>>( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured >to >>a >>>>>"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" >>>>block >>>>>from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is >>>>alot >>>>>of leverage there. >>>>>I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered >>tail >>>>>wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. >>>>>walt >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >>>>>To: piet aircamper ; piet >>>>>; 5k >>>>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >>>>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Hi Guys >>>>>> >>>>>>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used >>a >>>>>>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The >>rest >>>>>>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >>>>>> >>>>>>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just >>using >>>>>>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of >>my >>>>>>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >>>>>> >>>>>>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount >>it. >>>>>I >>>>>>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, >>>>but >>>>>>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier >>to >>>>>>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I >>end >>>>>up >>>>>>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ideas? >>>>>> >>>>>>Mike >>>>>>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>>>>>The more money you throw at them, >>>>>>the faster they fly. >>>>>> >>>>>>IHA 110 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs.
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Hey Gene, The trick of using the coarse sanpaper worked great, thanks! Bert (who now has at least one telescoping landing gear....) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:Welding of telescoping landing gear legs. > > You can ream it, but you remove a lot of metal in the area that you least > want to -- adjacent to the weld. The best thing to do is put a piece of > the smaller tubing inside before you weld (usually a scrap piece, but not > necessarily) After welding, the inside tube comes out, and the slag is not > built up to where it will keep the next tube from sliding in. If you have > already done all welding and do not want to redo, take a piece of welding > rod and crimp it around a strip of coarse sandpaper. Chuck the welding rod > in a hand drill and go at it. You will eventually ream out the slag. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Floor
Date: Jan 29, 2000
Hey John, Good to see you again! I read your message about the smooth floor, I think it was Mike Cuy that put some stainless skid plates for where his feet would rest, to give that nice smooth foot support. As I remember, he had skid plates for the front and back. I think I'll do something like that, if I ever get to that point! (If I ever get a heater out in my garage, that is!) I got my gas welding rig last weekend, so far I'm a REAL crummy welder! But I'm practicing! Take care, Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 30, 2000
-----Original Message----- From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> ; 5k Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >Mike, >I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail assy( only >adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he designed, >"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust of the skid >is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my first project >( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is secured to a >"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear the "V" block >from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. There is alot >of leverage there. >I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and cantalevered tail >wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it alone. >walt >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >To: piet aircamper ; piet >; 5k >Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > > >> >>Hi Guys >> >>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- 2/3 used a >>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. The rest >>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >> >>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, just using >>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for some of my >>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >> >>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will mount it. >I >>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil spring, but >>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >> >>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot easier to >>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself if I end >up >>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme tail. >> >>Ideas? >> >>Mike >>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >>The more money you throw at them, >>the faster they fly. >> >>IHA 110 >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 2000
From: John Duprey <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: wood
I have to agree you can't beat Western Aircraft. Jean Peters knows the Piet all you have to do is tell him what you are building he weill send you everthing you need, all cut to the correct dimesions. Fist rate stuff too. John Duprey Dave and Connie wrote: > > > Best deal that I found was Western Aircraft Supply in > Calgary. With a little digging I can probably even > find the address. It was about $1500 US + $100 > shipping to Rochester, NY. Let me know if you want me > to go looking for the address. > > Dave > > > > >Hello, what a great place for Piet Info. I'm just starting this project and > >was wondering what the best source for wood for the Piet would be. > >Carl Loar > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B and V Dearinger" <dearinge(at)iocc.com>
Subject: Re: wood
Date: Jan 30, 2000
Western Aircraft Supply is listed in the back of Sport Aviation.623 Markerville Rd.,NE,Calgary,Alberta,T2E 5X1 Canada.Phone 403-250-1955 -----Original Message----- From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood > >Best deal that I found was Western Aircraft Supply in >Calgary. With a little digging I can probably even >find the address. It was about $1500 US + $100 >shipping to Rochester, NY. Let me know if you want me >to go looking for the address. > >Dave > > >> >>Hello, what a great place for Piet Info. I'm just starting this project and >>was wondering what the best source for wood for the Piet would be. >>Carl Loar >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug" <ve6zh(at)oanet.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel Blocking
Date: Jan 30, 2000
Here is the John Deere # T143444.Was $13.80 Canadian in 1997.Sorry,i don't have the spring tech data Mike. Doug Hunt -----Original Message----- From: vistin(at)juno.com <vistin(at)juno.com> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking > >Doug: >Please give me the part number. > >Thanks >Steve > >> >> I will give you the John Deere part number if you like for the >> spring. >> Doug Hunt >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan Swanson <swans071(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:12 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >> >> >> >> > >> >Mike- If you are looking for a coil spring, I bought mine at a >> motorcycle >> >salvage yard. It was from the front shock strut. It was about 24 >> inches >> >long, so I just cut it short, for a spare. Cost me $10.00. >> > >> >Al Swanson >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >>Thanks Walt. >> >> >> >>I am getting a lot of my non-critical hardware / steel parts the >> same way >> >>BHP did---The local tractor supply ;-). I'll just have to see what >> they >> have >> >>for coils and leafs, then make up my mind. >> >> >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> >> >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ; >> piet >> >>; 5k >> >>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:20 PM >> >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>Mike, >> >>>I'm building mine to the plans. Including the original tail >> assy( only >> >>>adding a swivveling wheel where the skid was). >> >>>Once again, old Bernard was smart. The tail skid assy that he >> designed, >> >>>"pulls" from the longerons at the pivot point, and the up thrust >> of the >> >>skid >> >>>is put directly up the tail post. But other planes, like my >> first >> project >> >>>( Fisher 404) the tail wheel is out on a leaf spring, which is >> secured to >> a >> >>>"V" block. The forces on this are in a way that wants to tear >> the "V" >> >>block >> >>>from the tail because of the wheel way out past the tail post. >> There is >> >>alot >> >>>of leverage there. >> >>>I would say that if you are putting a leaf spring and >> cantalevered >> tail >> >>>wheel, put in the wedge, if making to Bernards plans, leave it >> alone. >> >>>walt >> >>>-----Original Message----- >> >>>From: Mike Lund <crafters(at)elgin.net> >> >>>To: piet aircamper ; piet >> >>>; 5k >> >>>Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:33 PM >> >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel Blocking >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>>>Hi Guys >> >>>> >> >>>>In all of the different wooden airplanes I studied, about 1/2- >> 2/3 used >> a >> >>>>hardwood wedge between the longerons to support tailwheel loads. >> The >> rest >> >>>>just took the load with the trussing and tailpost. >> >>>> >> >>>>What is everybody doing for thiers ?? (mine is not a true Piet, >> just >> using >> >>>>the F/G manual plans--Air Camper and Scout-- as a guideline for >> some of >> my >> >>>>own ideas....It'll look like a piet though ;-). >> >>>> >> >>>>My wheel will be a maule, but I havent got a clue yet how I will >> mount >> it. >> >>>I >> >>>>am leaning towards the scout type "v" with the compression coil >> spring, >> >>but >> >>>>a leaf spring might end up being lighter so the way to go. >> >>>> >> >>>>I'd like to keep as many options as possible open, and its a lot >> easier >> to >> >>>>install now than try and do it later, but I am gonna KICK myself >> if I >> end >> >>>up >> >>>>carrying around a pound of unneeded oak or ash at the extreme >> tail. >> >>>> >> >>>>Ideas? >> >>>> >> >>>>Mike >> >>>>Airplanes dont fly on gas, they fly on money. >> >>>>The more money you throw at them, >> >>>>the faster they fly. >> >>>> >> >>>>IHA 110 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >Steve W GN-1 builder >IHA #6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 2000
From: Carl Loar <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: wood
Thanks,,,,,, I'll give them a call. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: B and V Dearinger <dearinge(at)iocc.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood > > Western Aircraft Supply is listed in the back of Sport Aviation.623 > Markerville Rd.,NE,Calgary,Alberta,T2E 5X1 Canada.Phone 403-250-1955 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 8:34 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood > > > > > > >Best deal that I found was Western Aircraft Supply in > >Calgary. With a little digging I can probably even > >find the address. It was about $1500 US + $100 > >shipping to Rochester, NY. Let me know if you want me > >to go looking for the address. > > > >Dave > > > > > >> > >>Hello, what a great place for Piet Info. I'm just starting this project > and > >>was wondering what the best source for wood for the Piet would be. > >>Carl Loar > >> > >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 2000
From: Carl Loar <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Landing Gear
For what its worth dept. I think the spoked wheels on the Piet look great and was considering them when I watched a video from "aircamper.org". On the take off, it looked as though he had a quartering crosswind and if you watch the gear, it appears they are really being stressed. I don't know, check it out. here is the ip for it. www.aircamper.org/videos/corvair-pietenpol4-to.mpeg Carl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 2000
From: william hutson <wihutson(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Landing gear follies
"'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com' piet list" Question of the day, Currently I am planning on building a piet using the '33 plans but with the wooden landing gear from the F&G manual. My question is this: on the '33 model, the 2" ash cross piece, rear one, is in a different location compared to the F&G manual. Should the cross piece be relocated to match the F&G model or left as is and just place the wooden landing gear, rear strut, in the new location? As always, any ideas are greatly appreciated. Bill, Ellsworth AFB SD IHA#7 Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com


January 09, 2000 - January 30, 2000

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bl