Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bu
January 01, 2001 - January 23, 2001
read Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. If you still don't get it, then pull
out your trusty copy of Langewiesche's Stick and Rudder. It is all there.
Leave it alone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | I've got a great conversion program |
Got a great conversion program called "Convert", where you can convert
almost anything to almost anything. Like
volume,power,speed,force,etc,etc,etc. A handy little thing that comes up
like a calculator, and is easy to read.
About 1/2 meg. I'll send it to anyone who wants it.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I set up my one piece wing with 1" dihedral from center to tip. I think it
looks good. I think 4-5" might look pretty radical. I think it might be
difficult to get it to flex that far without building it in.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: dihedral
>
> I'm at the point of gluing the scarf joints on my
> spars. I would like to hear the pro's and con's of
> gluing with the dihedral in or gluing straight and
> then flexing the spars to get the dihedral. If I
> trigged it out properly, to get 1.5 degrees of
> dihedral the ends of the spar would have to be 4 to 5
> inches up from the center, or in other words. if you
> stretched a string from one tip to the other there
> would be 4 to 5 inches gap in the center from the
> string to the spar.
> del
>
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: I've got a great conversion program |
I will appreciate that,
ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- walter evans wrote:
>
>
> Got a great conversion program called "Convert",
> where you can convert
> almost anything to almost anything. Like
> volume,power,speed,force,etc,etc,etc. A handy
> little thing that comes up
> like a calculator, and is easy to read.
> About 1/2 meg. I'll send it to anyone who wants it.
> walt
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Powning <leopowning(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: I've got a great conversion program |
Thanks Walt. The program can be downloaded directly
from the author's site at www.joshmadison.com .
There's also an on-line converter at
http://www.convert-this.com/ but no jokes bonus like
at Josh's site.
Leo
--- Gary Gower wrote:
>
>
> I will appreciate that,
>
> ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
>
> --- walter evans wrote:
> evans"
> >
> >
> > Got a great conversion program called "Convert",
> > where you can convert
> > almost anything to almost anything. Like
> > volume,power,speed,force,etc,etc,etc. A handy
> > little thing that comes up
> > like a calculator, and is easy to read.
> > About 1/2 meg. I'll send it to anyone who wants
> it.
> > walt
> >
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > through
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> > Matronics!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: I've got a great conversion program |
If you have access to a Solaris system (I believe it's available on most
UNIX suystems), it has always had a built in conversion tool called
"units".
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Mon, 1 Jan 2001, Gary Gower wrote:
>
> I will appreciate that,
>
> ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
>
> --- walter evans wrote:
> >
> >
> > Got a great conversion program called "Convert",
> > where you can convert
> > almost anything to almost anything. Like
> > volume,power,speed,force,etc,etc,etc. A handy
> > little thing that comes up
> > like a calculator, and is easy to read.
> > About 1/2 meg. I'll send it to anyone who wants it.
> > walt
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > through
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> > Matronics!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Del- The dihedral choice is of course that of the builder. I chose to put
in some dihedral on my Piet since Cubs and Champs have it, those little
rubber-band balsa models have it, and birds have it. I've flow Frank
Pavliga's
Sky Gypsy with zero dihedral as the plans call for and it does indeed fly
just fine, BUT.....with mine I can let go of the stick and fly with rudder bar
alone while I'm fiddling with say my chart, a lost glove, the seat belt or
cushion, and most importantly when, on a long cross country, I'm filling
my red plastic portable restroom at 1,800 msl.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Merrill C Isaacson <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
I agree about the diehedral. May I ask what degree of it you put in your piet.
Merrill
Mt. Dora Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
>I agree about the diehedral. May I ask what degree of it you put in your piet.
>Merrill
>Mt. Dora Fl
Merrill- As I recall it's something like 1.5 degrees but the more familiar
number
is something like 1 to 2 inches up at the wingtips.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | Steve Eldredge "Hats" |
Glad you got it! They are fun to wear. I have three for myself. Seems to
be about the quantity I need to have one at hand when I need one. I have a
fourth favorite in my Bearhawk hat now too.
Best Wishes,
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Daryl
Bortel
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steve Eldredge "Hats"
Steve,
Great hat!! My wife ordered one for me for Christmas. Now I really have to
finish my Piet.
Happy Holidays,
Daryl Bortel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | Landing gear leg tubing |
I used the thicker tubing. Don't go thinner. I did by mistake and bent my
gear, Unfortunatly I had used .035. It took about 150 landings to
discover.
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Flyboy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear leg tubing
Wow that was a quick reply! Thanks Sam I'll give Dillsburg a call. I've
heard of them but never dealt with them and didn't have there number.
Thanks again.
Ed G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
I've been out of touch with the aviation community for a long time. I wish
some of you who would be up to date would keep us informed as to the latest
news regarding that proposed new aircraft category under 1232 lbs requiring
only nerve and a driver's lic. IIf it doesn't pass I don't think ole Corky
will be able to get away from the cotton fields with his new Piet. Just
because I can't hear,see or run the FAA is reluctant to issue me a medical ok.
Seriously I would appreciate any news, good or bad. Thanks
Corky in La Spent the day designing a set of skis for my Piet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/000929_sport_pilot.html
Some good info here Corky...
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: FAA News
I've been out of touch with the aviation community for a long time. I wish
some of you who would be up to date would keep us informed as to the latest
news regarding that proposed new aircraft category under 1232 lbs requiring
only nerve and a driver's lic. IIf it doesn't pass I don't think ole Corky
will be able to get away from the cotton fields with his new Piet. Just
because I can't hear,see or run the FAA is reluctant to issue me a medical
ok.
Seriously I would appreciate any news, good or bad. Thanks
Corky in La Spent the day designing a set of skis for my
Piet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: steel tube fuselage |
Is there an accepted set of detailed plans available for building a steel
tube fuselage for the Aircamper?
I have great respect for the thought that Mr.. Pietenpol put into the
"original" wood fuselage but I also have an appreciation for the strength
and beauty of light weight steel tube as well as other appropriate
materials. It is one thing to remain steadfast and strong about resistance
to change but it is another thing entirely to forgo the remarkable advances
in technology which could greatly expand the scope of a beautifully designed
craft.
I can not speak for Mr. Pietenpol or Leonardo DaVinci for that matter but I
cannot believe that both would not have had an appreciation for such new
materials, processes and techniques.
If I could, I'ld send a box of carbon fiber, epoxy, chrome molly tube and my
TIG welder back in time and offer it as a Gift to Mr. Davinci. The world
would surely be a different place.
Allen Smith
allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: steel tube fuselage |
Allen, Yes there is a steel tube Piet and it's in the original plans.
It was designed by a Professor Wise I believe for Bernie. Details about
it are in the Flying and Glider magazine where the original article for
the aircamper was printed.( reprints are availible from EAA ).
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of allen
smith
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel tube fuselage
Is there an accepted set of detailed plans available for building a steel
tube fuselage for the Aircamper?
I have great respect for the thought that Mr.. Pietenpol put into the
"original" wood fuselage but I also have an appreciation for the strength
and beauty of light weight steel tube as well as other appropriate
materials. It is one thing to remain steadfast and strong about resistance
to change but it is another thing entirely to forgo the remarkable advances
in technology which could greatly expand the scope of a beautifully designed
craft.
I can not speak for Mr. Pietenpol or Leonardo DaVinci for that matter but I
cannot believe that both would not have had an appreciation for such new
materials, processes and techniques.
If I could, I'ld send a box of carbon fiber, epoxy, chrome molly tube and my
TIG welder back in time and offer it as a Gift to Mr. Davinci. The world
would surely be a different place.
Allen Smith
allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dominic Excell" <dominic.excell(at)ewol.com> |
| Subject: | Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
Hello group,
I have recently moved to Port Charlotte, (Gulf Coast of Florida) from
the
UK, where for the last 2 years or so I have been following the
discussions,
prior to starting to build. Due to the collapse of my marriage, things
are
on hold for a while longer, but I am still very interested in starting
my
project one day. I was wondering if anyone knows of any Piet
enthusiasts /
builders / owners in my new area?
I look forward to hearing from anyone
Happy 2001 to you all
Dominic Excell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ED GRENTZER" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
Hi Dominic
Although I'm not real close to Port Charlotte I am on the West coast
of Fl. I'm in Palm Harbor which is north of Clearwater about 10 miles and
just south of Tarpon Springs. I've been building a Piet since last May. I
have the tail feathers, the fuselage, all the wing ribs, and most of the
metal fittings finished and just started on the landing gear legs this
morning. There is also a fellow in Fort Myers and another in St Petersburg
who are building Piets.
I'm building the short, wood fuselage 1933 version and have an 80
horsepower Franklin aircraft engine which I'm overhauling for it.
Welcome to the U.S. I'm sorry to hear about your marriage, I went
through that 6 years ago, it really sucks.
Ed Grentzer
Palm Harbor, Fl.
>From: "Dominic Excell" <dominic.excell(at)ewol.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "Pietenpol"
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida
>Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:48:34 -0500
>
>
>
>Hello group,
>
>I have recently moved to Port Charlotte, (Gulf Coast of Florida) from
>the
>UK, where for the last 2 years or so I have been following the
>discussions,
>prior to starting to build. Due to the collapse of my marriage, things
>are
>on hold for a while longer, but I am still very interested in starting
>my
>project one day. I was wondering if anyone knows of any Piet
>enthusiasts /
>builders / owners in my new area?
>
>I look forward to hearing from anyone
>
>Happy 2001 to you all
>
>Dominic Excell
>
>
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
Ah,, Dominic,,, The pain of divorce,,, I know it, or should I say I knew it.
Many many years ago,, I remember many things,, like the time twentyfive plus
years ago I wanted to bring my Harley in the house during a long cold Ohio
winter,
nothing permanant understand,, just a small weekend to finish some work so
it would
be ready by spring. I paid for that one alright. But now as I turn and look
behind me
and see my piet in the living room and dining room, the only sound I here is
calm and peace.
And so what if I'm a little overdue on my bills, I still order that piece of
4130 from
ACS anyway and I can leave the earplugs out. So just remember my friend, as
you start
to lay down those jig blocks for the fuse and start tooling up, that piet
will be like
a percodan for the soul. Good luck in your new adventure,,
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dominic
Excell
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida
Hello group,
I have recently moved to Port Charlotte, (Gulf Coast of Florida) from
the
UK, where for the last 2 years or so I have been following the
discussions,
prior to starting to build. Due to the collapse of my marriage, things
are
on hold for a while longer, but I am still very interested in starting
my
project one day. I was wondering if anyone knows of any Piet
enthusiasts /
builders / owners in my new area?
I look forward to hearing from anyone
Happy 2001 to you all
Dominic Excell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
Hey Ed,
Since knowing you are in Florida maybe you could give me some personal
information about a winter fly-in over there. I think it's called SUN-Fun or
something. I'd sorta like to load my bride in the Buick and take it in IF I
would be assured of seeing some Piets. May I hear from you on this matter?
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <CraigWilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
Corky -
I've been several times, but not recently. I'm in Lake Worth, FL. You can
check the dates at www.eaa.org. I do plan to go this year, hopefully with
my buddy and his motor home ;-) .
Maybe we can meet there, along with the thousands of other homebuilders and
their fans.
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida
>
> Hey Ed,
> Since knowing you are in Florida maybe you could give me some personal
> information about a winter fly-in over there. I think it's called SUN-Fun
or
> something. I'd sorta like to load my bride in the Buick and take it in IF
I
> would be assured of seeing some Piets. May I hear from you on this matter?
> Corky in La
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <CraigWilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: steel tube fuselage |
Allen -
My Piet plans include a sheet on building a steel tube fuselage. If I was
building a Piet, I think that this is the way I would go. I decided to
build a Bakeng Duce instead for several reasons, such as having had the
plans for 21 years; little big larger, with higher gross and cruise speed,
lower stall, sttel tube fuse, etc., etc., etc.
Any way, check the plans available from Donald Pietenpol, as they do have
the steel fuselage in them.
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel tube fuselage
>
>
> Is there an accepted set of detailed plans available for building a steel
> tube fuselage for the Aircamper?
>
> I have great respect for the thought that Mr.. Pietenpol put into the
> "original" wood fuselage but I also have an appreciation for the strength
> and beauty of light weight steel tube as well as other appropriate
> materials. It is one thing to remain steadfast and strong about
resistance
> to change but it is another thing entirely to forgo the remarkable
advances
> in technology which could greatly expand the scope of a beautifully
designed
> craft.
>
> I can not speak for Mr. Pietenpol or Leonardo DaVinci for that matter but
I
> cannot believe that both would not have had an appreciation for such new
> materials, processes and techniques.
>
> If I could, I'ld send a box of carbon fiber, epoxy, chrome molly tube and
my
> TIG welder back in time and offer it as a Gift to Mr. Davinci. The world
> would surely be a different place.
>
> Allen Smith
> allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: steel tube fuselage |
In a message dated 1/2/01 9:15:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com writes:
> Is there an accepted set of detailed plans available for building a steel
> tube fuselage for the Aircamper?
>
>
Allen,
Yes, there is steel tube fuselage design for the short version in the 1932
Flying and Glider Manual. Thanks Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com> |
| Subject: | Piets in Port Charlotte FL area |
Hello Dominic -
Welcome to the colonies! Each year I publish a directory of the registered
Piets, and will have the 2001 directory ready in about a month or
less. However, using the info I have now, there are some 30 or more Piets
registered as flying in the state of Florida. There are several right
around you.
N18224 Gary Baglien 4210 SE 20th
Pl A7 0-145B 80
Cape Coral FL
33904 Pietenpol 39
N25WM William J Marshall 6012 Timberwood Cir #209 Unk 96
Ft Myers FL
33908 Marshall 96
N269RW Bradford Schultz 22179 Breezeswept Ave Unk xx
Port Charlotte FL
33952 Schultz xx
N30PP Jim Brousseau 350 Fifth Ave S C-75 96
Naples FL
33940 Orcutt 96
N67RH Richard M West 4020 SW 5th Pl Unk 99
Cape Coral FL
33914 Hanson 74
The cryptic stuff at the right end tells us (N67RH, for example) "Unk"
means I don't know what engine is installed. The "99" means that Richard
bought the airplane in 1999 (from Jim French in San Antonio TX). "Hanson"
is the name of the builder, who built it in 1974.
I have no phone numbers or e-mail on this list, but you can track these
people down.
Keeping track of Piet builders would be an impossible task. Best I can do
is the flying Piets.
See you at Sun'N'Fun!
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
There were 3 Piets at SNF last year and lots of Piet people around the
workshops.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida
>
> Hey Ed,
> Since knowing you are in Florida maybe you could give me some personal
> information about a winter fly-in over there. I think it's called SUN-Fun
or
> something. I'd sorta like to load my bride in the Buick and take it in IF
I
> would be assured of seeing some Piets. May I hear from you on this matter?
> Corky in La
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael King" <mikek120(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area |
Doc,
What listings do you have in Texas?
I have a flying GN-1 in Dallas and would
like to contact others in the state.
Thanks.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas, Texas
214 905-9299
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
> Hello Dominic -
>
> Welcome to the colonies! Each year I publish a directory of the
registered
> Piets, and will have the 2001 directory ready in about a month or
> less. However, using the info I have now, there are some 30 or more Piets
> registered as flying in the state of Florida. There are several right
> around you.
>
> N18224 Gary Baglien 4210 SE 20th
> Pl A7 0-145B 80
> Cape Coral FL
> 33904 Pietenpol 39
>
> N25WM William J Marshall 6012 Timberwood Cir #209 Unk 96
> Ft Myers FL
> 33908 Marshall 96
>
> N269RW Bradford Schultz 22179 Breezeswept Ave Unk xx
> Port Charlotte FL
> 33952 Schultz xx
>
> N30PP Jim Brousseau 350 Fifth Ave S C-75 96
> Naples FL
> 33940 Orcutt 96
>
> N67RH Richard M West 4020 SW 5th Pl Unk 99
> Cape Coral FL
> 33914 Hanson 74
>
> The cryptic stuff at the right end tells us (N67RH, for example) "Unk"
> means I don't know what engine is installed. The "99" means that Richard
> bought the airplane in 1999 (from Jim French in San Antonio TX). "Hanson"
> is the name of the builder, who built it in 1974.
>
> I have no phone numbers or e-mail on this list, but you can track these
> people down.
>
> Keeping track of Piet builders would be an impossible task. Best I can do
> is the flying Piets.
>
> See you at Sun'N'Fun!
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Gillespie" <dickmarg(at)peganet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte area of Florida |
Dominic,
I'm building a GN-1. About 3 yrs. into it and probably 2 to go. Your
welcome to take a look anytime. Welcome to Sunny (and WARM?) Florida.
Dick Gillespie
Ft. Myers, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Percodan for the soul |
A Piet = Percodan for the soul? Boy are we further down the road than I
thought!
Of course my wife would agree, she's seen the project go from the basement
to the
back porch, to the hanger and still no end in sight (so she says). I says
next summer
for sure but I've been saying that for eight years now.
I always thought that standing around in a 30deg, windy hanger was the real
indicator. Come to think of it, that's what I'll be doing in a short while.
Motorcycles in the house?... Airplanes in the house?... A man after my own
heart.
A Piet junkie? Hmmm, now that's not so bad...
Rodger
Piet in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chambers, Ken" <kchambers(at)sicolamartin.com> |
| Subject: | Piets in Port Charlotte FL area |
Hello Mike
I'm just about to order plans and get started on a Piet. And there's a guy
who lives south of San Antonio who appears to be several years into building
a Piet.
By the way, my father sells homebuilt hardware and wood in Caddo Mills,
Texas, just about 30 miles out of Dallas on I-30. Let me know if you're
interested and I'll get contact information for you.
Ken Chambers
Austin, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael King [mailto:mikek120(at)mindspring.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
Doc,
What listings do you have in Texas?
I have a flying GN-1 in Dallas and would
like to contact others in the state.
Thanks.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas, Texas
214 905-9299
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
> Hello Dominic -
>
> Welcome to the colonies! Each year I publish a directory of the
registered
> Piets, and will have the 2001 directory ready in about a month or
> less. However, using the info I have now, there are some 30 or more Piets
> registered as flying in the state of Florida. There are several right
> around you.
>
> N18224 Gary Baglien 4210 SE 20th
> Pl A7 0-145B 80
> Cape Coral FL
> 33904 Pietenpol 39
>
> N25WM William J Marshall 6012 Timberwood Cir #209 Unk 96
> Ft Myers FL
> 33908 Marshall 96
>
> N269RW Bradford Schultz 22179 Breezeswept Ave Unk xx
> Port Charlotte FL
> 33952 Schultz xx
>
> N30PP Jim Brousseau 350 Fifth Ave S C-75 96
> Naples FL
> 33940 Orcutt 96
>
> N67RH Richard M West 4020 SW 5th Pl Unk 99
> Cape Coral FL
> 33914 Hanson 74
>
> The cryptic stuff at the right end tells us (N67RH, for example) "Unk"
> means I don't know what engine is installed. The "99" means that Richard
> bought the airplane in 1999 (from Jim French in San Antonio TX). "Hanson"
> is the name of the builder, who built it in 1974.
>
> I have no phone numbers or e-mail on this list, but you can track these
> people down.
>
> Keeping track of Piet builders would be an impossible task. Best I can do
> is the flying Piets.
>
> See you at Sun'N'Fun!
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael King" <mikek120(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area |
Ken,
I just got an email from Rodger who lives in
Comfort. He says he is about 80% through
with his project.
Yes, I am familiar with Caddo Mills. A friend
of mine owned a large lumber company there.
His family sold it. Lumber from it and some
nearby land the family owned was donated to
build the Masonic Lodge that sits next door
to it.
Give me the info on your dad. The next time
I am there I will go by and say HI.
Thanks again Ken. Send me some pics of your
project. Believe me you will find your efforts
worthwhile.
Take care.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Chambers, Ken <kchambers(at)sicolamartin.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
> Hello Mike
>
> I'm just about to order plans and get started on a Piet. And there's a guy
> who lives south of San Antonio who appears to be several years into
building
> a Piet.
>
> By the way, my father sells homebuilt hardware and wood in Caddo Mills,
> Texas, just about 30 miles out of Dallas on I-30. Let me know if you're
> interested and I'll get contact information for you.
>
> Ken Chambers
> Austin, Texas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael King [mailto:mikek120(at)mindspring.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:14 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
>
>
>
> Doc,
>
> What listings do you have in Texas?
>
> I have a flying GN-1 in Dallas and would
> like to contact others in the state.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike King
> GN-1
> 77MK
> Dallas, Texas
> 214 905-9299
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:13 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
>
> >
> > Hello Dominic -
> >
> > Welcome to the colonies! Each year I publish a directory of the
> registered
> > Piets, and will have the 2001 directory ready in about a month or
> > less. However, using the info I have now, there are some 30 or more
Piets
> > registered as flying in the state of Florida. There are several right
> > around you.
> >
> > N18224 Gary Baglien 4210 SE 20th
> > Pl A7 0-145B 80
> > Cape Coral FL
> > 33904 Pietenpol 39
> >
> > N25WM William J Marshall 6012 Timberwood Cir #209 Unk
96
> > Ft Myers FL
> > 33908 Marshall 96
> >
> > N269RW Bradford Schultz 22179 Breezeswept Ave Unk
xx
> > Port Charlotte FL
> > 33952 Schultz xx
> >
> > N30PP Jim Brousseau 350 Fifth Ave S C-75
96
> > Naples FL
> > 33940 Orcutt 96
> >
> > N67RH Richard M West 4020 SW 5th Pl Unk
99
> > Cape Coral FL
> > 33914 Hanson 74
> >
> > The cryptic stuff at the right end tells us (N67RH, for example) "Unk"
> > means I don't know what engine is installed. The "99" means that
Richard
> > bought the airplane in 1999 (from Jim French in San Antonio TX).
"Hanson"
> > is the name of the builder, who built it in 1974.
> >
> > I have no phone numbers or e-mail on this list, but you can track these
> > people down.
> >
> > Keeping track of Piet builders would be an impossible task. Best I can
do
> > is the flying Piets.
> >
> > See you at Sun'N'Fun!
> >
> > Doc Mosher
> > Oshkosh USA
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chambers, Ken" <kchambers(at)sicolamartin.com> |
| Subject: | Piets in Port Charlotte FL area |
Mike
Driving from Dallas, take the Caddo Mills exit (FM36)and stay on the south
(right) side of the Interstate. Alpha Aviation is about a half-mile up on
the access road. My father's name is Russ Chambers and he works Monday
through Saturday. Loves to talk airplane. 903-527-3817.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael King [mailto:mikek120(at)mindspring.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
Ken,
I just got an email from Rodger who lives in
Comfort. He says he is about 80% through
with his project.
Yes, I am familiar with Caddo Mills. A friend
of mine owned a large lumber company there.
His family sold it. Lumber from it and some
nearby land the family owned was donated to
build the Masonic Lodge that sits next door
to it.
Give me the info on your dad. The next time
I am there I will go by and say HI.
Thanks again Ken. Send me some pics of your
project. Believe me you will find your efforts
worthwhile.
Take care.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Chambers, Ken <kchambers(at)sicolamartin.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
> Hello Mike
>
> I'm just about to order plans and get started on a Piet. And there's a guy
> who lives south of San Antonio who appears to be several years into
building
> a Piet.
>
> By the way, my father sells homebuilt hardware and wood in Caddo Mills,
> Texas, just about 30 miles out of Dallas on I-30. Let me know if you're
> interested and I'll get contact information for you.
>
> Ken Chambers
> Austin, Texas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael King [mailto:mikek120(at)mindspring.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:14 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
>
>
>
> Doc,
>
> What listings do you have in Texas?
>
> I have a flying GN-1 in Dallas and would
> like to contact others in the state.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike King
> GN-1
> 77MK
> Dallas, Texas
> 214 905-9299
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:13 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in Port Charlotte FL area
>
>
> >
> > Hello Dominic -
> >
> > Welcome to the colonies! Each year I publish a directory of the
> registered
> > Piets, and will have the 2001 directory ready in about a month or
> > less. However, using the info I have now, there are some 30 or more
Piets
> > registered as flying in the state of Florida. There are several right
> > around you.
> >
> > N18224 Gary Baglien 4210 SE 20th
> > Pl A7 0-145B 80
> > Cape Coral FL
> > 33904 Pietenpol 39
> >
> > N25WM William J Marshall 6012 Timberwood Cir #209 Unk
96
> > Ft Myers FL
> > 33908 Marshall 96
> >
> > N269RW Bradford Schultz 22179 Breezeswept Ave Unk
xx
> > Port Charlotte FL
> > 33952 Schultz xx
> >
> > N30PP Jim Brousseau 350 Fifth Ave S C-75
96
> > Naples FL
> > 33940 Orcutt 96
> >
> > N67RH Richard M West 4020 SW 5th Pl Unk
99
> > Cape Coral FL
> > 33914 Hanson 74
> >
> > The cryptic stuff at the right end tells us (N67RH, for example) "Unk"
> > means I don't know what engine is installed. The "99" means that
Richard
> > bought the airplane in 1999 (from Jim French in San Antonio TX).
"Hanson"
> > is the name of the builder, who built it in 1974.
> >
> > I have no phone numbers or e-mail on this list, but you can track these
> > people down.
> >
> > Keeping track of Piet builders would be an impossible task. Best I can
do
> > is the flying Piets.
> >
> > See you at Sun'N'Fun!
> >
> > Doc Mosher
> > Oshkosh USA
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
> Each year I publish a directory of the registered
>Piets, and will have the 2001 directory ready in about a month or
>less. (written by Doc)
Guys- This directory (paper) by Doc is just great. If you are trying to see
who owns a Piet in your area this is the way to go. Doc has taken all the
work out of it for us. Doc is an avid Piet supporter and all-round nice guy.
Former jet jockey, but still knows low and slow is the way to go.
Doc was a big help in 1999 in helping us coordinate the 17 Piets that gathered
at Hartford, WI and subsequently flew into Oshkosh for the 70 year anniversary
of the design. Thanks Doc, you are appreciated !
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi friends
Anyone know who's the guy that live in San Antonio and is building a Piet?
Javier Cruz
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
Guys- Is there any work/progress being done to put as many or all
of Grant's old BPAN newsletters on a CD or such ?? Was it Mike Bell
who was forging ahead with that ? Just curious. It would be a goldmine
for any of us.
ALSO- The second BRODHEAD Pietenpol Association Newsletter showed
up in my mailbox this week and it's looking just fine. Keep in mind that
Grant MacLaren did us a phenomenal, TEN year effort in producing a super
newsletter PRIOR to this NEW group writing the letter. Don't confuse the
two as they look somewhat similar, but this is a new venture. More can
be found at: http://www.pietenpol.org/ The guy doing the new newsletter
is Don Campbell and the whole thing is published at/by a little newspaper
outfit in Brodhead, Wisconsin. (although I believe Don C. lives near
Chicago.)
Happy Friday to those not
retired yet.....even Texan buddy Jim Sury !!!
and Gary Meadows.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0
| Subject: | Re: Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
FYI, I purchased a complete set of old BPAN newsletters from Grant
before he stopped being the editor.
Cheers,
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
Mike,
I may not be retired, but I wake up everyday tired all over again! Is that
re-tired? Nice, warm day down here in Space City, in the 60's not a cloud in
the sky! Time for some Piet work out in the garage! Or a trip around the
patch in the Cardinal,(while I still have it...)
Gary M.
Working on the fuselage - almost looks like a Piet!
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
| Subject: | Re: Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
| From: | John Hofmann <johnh(at)kencook.com> |
I volunteered to put the newsletter on CD back in September then things got
a little hectic on the job with travel and whatnot. Now that the holidays
have passed, I have more time to resurrect this project. If anyone has a
complete (or mostly complete) newsletter set I can scan I will get on this
right away. Publications are my life!
The plan is to scan/OCR and then create a searchable PDF database of
newsletters in printable quality with a nice splash screen and menu etc. Any
and all feedback welcome. I will try to do a cover design over the weekend.
Newsletters really won't take up much room on a CD so is there anyone with
video footage to be digitized or anything else interesting to the Piet
officianado?
Doc Mosher if you read this, since you are in Oshkosh and I am in Milwaukee,
maybe we should get together sometime?
Personal feedback welcome to the private email address too.
BeWell,
-john-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
Gary,
I like a cold nasty day to work on the Piet in my nice warm basement. If it was
60 degrees without a cloud in the sky I'd be flying my old Cessna 140 rather
than working.
Jack Phillips
Wings finished, Tail finished, Fuselage under construction, Engine in pieces
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Meadows [SMTP:gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 2:03 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Old Newsletters on CD ???
>
>
> Mike,
>
> I may not be retired, but I wake up everyday tired all over again! Is that
> re-tired? Nice, warm day down here in Space City, in the 60's not a cloud in
> the sky! Time for some Piet work out in the garage! Or a trip around the
> patch in the Cardinal,(while I still have it...)
>
> Gary M.
> Working on the fuselage - almost looks like a Piet!
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
>
RE: Pietenpol-List: Old Newsletters on CD ???
Gary,
I like a cold nasty
day to work on the Piet in my nice warm basement. If it was 60
degrees without a cloud in the sky I'd be flying my old Cessna 140
rather than working.
Jack Phillips
Wings finished, Tail
finished, Fuselage under construction, Engine in pieces
-----Original Message-----
From: <FONT
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Gary Meadows
[SMTP:gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com]
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Friday, January 05, 2001 2:03 PM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Old Newsletters
on CD ???
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
by: Gary Meadows gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com
Mike,
I may not be retired, but I
wake up everyday tired all over again! Is that
re-tired? Nice, warm day down here in
Space City, in the 60's not a cloud in
the sky! Time for some Piet work out
in the garage! Or a trip around the
patch in the Cardinal,(while I still
have it...)
Gary M.
Working on the fuselage - almost
looks like a Piet!
Get your FREE download of MSN
Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
http://www.matronics.com/
HREF"http://www.matronics.com/pietenpol-list"
TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/pietenpol-list
HREF"http://www.matronics.com/subscribe"
TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
HREF"http://www.matronics.com/search"
TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/search
Download: http://www.matronics.com/archives
HREF"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
http://www.matronics.com/order
| From: | Borodent(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
Subj: Re: Pietenpol-List: Old Newsletters on CD ???
Date: 1/5/01 1:35:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: wbnb(at)earthlink.net (Warren D. Shoun)
FYI, I purchased a complete set of old BPAN newsletters from Grant
before he stopped being the editor.
Cheers,
Warren
I coppied this for you from the list incase you missed it Henry Williams (
working on body,and tail )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Smith" <psmith(at)tein.net> |
| Subject: | Work in progress |
We are finally up and running building Piet pieces. Have several ribs in the
works. How can anyone sell them for $10 ea? I would need at least $50. Mike
the video was great .
Pete & Rebecca Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Work in progress |
Hey Pete,,, Those ribs are something eh? Little teeny miter cuts.
A friend of mine gave me a tool that he made back in the 40's to
set the little brass nails before hammering. It's about five inches long
and about an inch wide. It comes to a point at the end and it has a thin
piece of sheet metal on the bottom with a groove to hold the nails. You slip
the nail in, push down and set it on the gusset, and then slip the tool off.
What a great idea. With out it the rib process would be turning me into a
flaming maniac ( like I'm not there already ).
Maybe I'll take a few pics of it and post it on my piet pages at my web
site.
It would be easy enough to make and I'm sure many on this list here would
benefit
from it. I'll try to have that posted by tonight.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Pete
Smith
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Work in progress
We are finally up and running building Piet pieces. Have several ribs in the
works. How can anyone sell them for $10 ea? I would need at least $50. Mike
the video was great .
Pete & Rebecca Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Nail tool for ribs |
If anyone is interested,, I posted a couple of pics of
that tool for setting the brass nails for the ribs. The pics
are not fantastic but you will get the idea. I also made a
spec sheet for it. It's kinda big but you can print it and hopefully
be understandable. Just go to my homepage with the link below and at
the bottom of my page is the piet link. On the first page at the top
is a link for this item. I hope it helps and someone can use it.
Carl
Please visit my website at
http://www.megsinet.net/skycarl
Sign up with Paypal,it's free and they will
give you $5.00 just for joining.
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=skycarl%40megsinet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Easy gussets:
Cut a 2 inch circle with a hole saw. Cut it in half, voila, two gussets.
Cut it in quarters, voila four corner gussets,
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
PS of course, stack em
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)msn.com> |
1. Does anyone have a set of prints for the "gapless" aileron mod from the late
Gary Price? Just curious to see how he did it.
2. I agree with Mike Cuy, the fledgling BPA newsletter has a lot of potential but
we all need to feed it info so it can become more than a list of who subscribed
since the last issue. Maybe we can get enough coverage about Pietenpols so
they won't have to ruin another cover with a GN-1 on it! Get with it guys!!
3. I have a full set of the original BPANewsletters but a few have really poor
quality pictures. I'd be willing to loan them to be scanned if nobody else comes
forward with good ones.
4. I hope to be flying this summer but probably not in time for B'head/OSH. Still
have to finish up the wings and engine.
Larry
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nail tool for ribs |
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Loar <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nail tool for ribs
Hi Carl
Neat old tool! I suppose al of us have bruised a few fingers on the
target hand! Then we come up with neat tools.
I did some of mine with the little clip on spring loaded extension for my
multi-meter. It has a small hook on the end, meant to grab wiring.
I found it would pick up nails easily and allow me to set them with a tap of
my hammer and release easily ready for the next nail. I also spread my nails
on a small flanged cookie sheet lined with construction paper. If you rest
the sheet on a small block and tap it a couple of times the nails all roll
and point uphill, heads down. Makes it a whole lot faster to pick them up.
The black fingernail from my old method is almost gone now :-)!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Nail tool for ribs |
If anyone went in to the site for this tool and found it too big
( the dimension drawing ) I resized it and reposted it so now it will print
on one sheet of paper. Hope this is better and easier to use.
If anyone makes one of these and uses it, please post and let me know how
it worked out for you. Thanks
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Loar
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nail tool for ribs
If anyone is interested,, I posted a couple of pics of
that tool for setting the brass nails for the ribs. The pics
are not fantastic but you will get the idea. I also made a
spec sheet for it. It's kinda big but you can print it and hopefully
be understandable. Just go to my homepage with the link below and at
the bottom of my page is the piet link. On the first page at the top
is a link for this item. I hope it helps and someone can use it.
Carl
Please visit my website at
http://www.megsinet.net/skycarl
Sign up with Paypal,it's free and they will
give you $5.00 just for joining.
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=skycarl%40megsinet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | The late Gary Price |
Hello Larry. I bought all of Gary Prices plans. I knew Gary was going
threw the "change", but has he passd away? I'm going to use is gapless
piano hinge ailerons. Also I built his fuel tank and front cockpit door.
Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com> |
| Subject: | Save some money for Piet parts |
Each year during April and May, the EAA bookshop in Oshkosh sells any item
in the EAA Book/Video catalog for 50% off if you buy the items thru your
local EAA Chapter. Get in touch with your EAA Chapter representative and
get your free catalog and order blank.
This means that you can get the entire set of Bingelis books for about $50
instead of about $100. I don't want to cramp EAA's sales for the next
month or two, but if you can wait until April and buy thru your Chapter,
you can have some real savings - enough to buy some dope and fabric. Those
$25 and $30 books add up in a hurry.
After you get the catalog, you may want to get into some of the videos,
too. They don not carry Mike Cuy's excellent production (their loss), but
there are a number of other "how to" videos that team up with some of the
"how to" books. Even the thick FAA manuals (like 43.13) are in the
catalog. The reprints of the old "Glider and Flying Manuals" from the
early 1930s are listed.
Go to www.eaa.org and order your free catalog. Your chapter people may not
yet have it.
When I was flying Gulfstreams, the favorite inflight video of the
passengers was "Those Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines." I
finally got a copy for myself a week ago. It's enough to make you want to
go build a Voissan or Antoinette or a Demoiselle - or a Pietenpol!
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chambers, Ken" <kchambers(at)sicolamartin.com> |
| Subject: | Nail tool for ribs |
Great Piet site, Carl
Looks like you're building the exact plane I hope to build. (I'm gathering
materials and saving for the plans right now. Anyone know of a set of
stretch-fuselage plans for sale, cheap?)I might move the fuselage and engine
into a hangar and then try to build the one-piece wing.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Loar [mailto:skycarl(at)megsinet.net]
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Nail tool for ribs
If anyone went in to the site for this tool and found it too big
( the dimension drawing ) I resized it and reposted it so now it will print
on one sheet of paper. Hope this is better and easier to use.
If anyone makes one of these and uses it, please post and let me know how
it worked out for you. Thanks
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Loar
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nail tool for ribs
If anyone is interested,, I posted a couple of pics of
that tool for setting the brass nails for the ribs. The pics
are not fantastic but you will get the idea. I also made a
spec sheet for it. It's kinda big but you can print it and hopefully
be understandable. Just go to my homepage with the link below and at
the bottom of my page is the piet link. On the first page at the top
is a link for this item. I hope it helps and someone can use it.
Carl
Please visit my website at
http://www.megsinet.net/skycarl
Sign up with Paypal,it's free and they will
give you $5.00 just for joining.
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=skycarl%40megsinet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Save some money for Piet parts |
MY opinion is ,,,If you've never seen Tony B.'s books, you can't imagine how
informative they are. Sometimes you have ideas for your plane , but wonder
if its a good idea, or designed right. Tony's books are the BEST when it
comes down to experience and good old common sense way to do things.
On the way to looking something up, you'll get sidetracked every time
looking at something else...guarenteed.!
You'll also find that alot of things can be made instead of bought, very
simply.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mosher" <docshop(at)famvid.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Save some money for Piet parts
>
> Each year during April and May, the EAA bookshop in Oshkosh sells any item
> in the EAA Book/Video catalog for 50% off if you buy the items thru your
> local EAA Chapter. Get in touch with your EAA Chapter representative and
> get your free catalog and order blank.
>
> This means that you can get the entire set of Bingelis books for about $50
> instead of about $100. I don't want to cramp EAA's sales for the next
> month or two, but if you can wait until April and buy thru your Chapter,
> you can have some real savings - enough to buy some dope and fabric.
Those
> $25 and $30 books add up in a hurry.
>
> After you get the catalog, you may want to get into some of the videos,
> too. They don not carry Mike Cuy's excellent production (their loss), but
> there are a number of other "how to" videos that team up with some of the
> "how to" books. Even the thick FAA manuals (like 43.13) are in the
> catalog. The reprints of the old "Glider and Flying Manuals" from the
> early 1930s are listed.
>
> Go to www.eaa.org and order your free catalog. Your chapter people may
not
> yet have it.
>
> When I was flying Gulfstreams, the favorite inflight video of the
> passengers was "Those Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines." I
> finally got a copy for myself a week ago. It's enough to make you want to
> go build a Voissan or Antoinette or a Demoiselle - or a Pietenpol!
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Save some money for Piet parts |
I'll second that motion. I have learned so much from Tony Bingelis' books
that I can't imagine doing a project without them. Matter of fact, I'm
getting
ready to make my fuel tank out of fiberglass per the instructions in his
book.
The info in those and this group is invaluable.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Save some money for Piet parts
MY opinion is ,,,If you've never seen Tony B.'s books, you can't imagine how
informative they are. Sometimes you have ideas for your plane , but wonder
if its a good idea, or designed right. Tony's books are the BEST when it
comes down to experience and good old common sense way to do things.
On the way to looking something up, you'll get sidetracked every time
looking at something else...guarenteed.!
You'll also find that alot of things can be made instead of bought, very
simply.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mosher" <docshop(at)famvid.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Save some money for Piet parts
>
> Each year during April and May, the EAA bookshop in Oshkosh sells any item
> in the EAA Book/Video catalog for 50% off if you buy the items thru your
> local EAA Chapter. Get in touch with your EAA Chapter representative and
> get your free catalog and order blank.
>
> This means that you can get the entire set of Bingelis books for about $50
> instead of about $100. I don't want to cramp EAA's sales for the next
> month or two, but if you can wait until April and buy thru your Chapter,
> you can have some real savings - enough to buy some dope and fabric.
Those
> $25 and $30 books add up in a hurry.
>
> After you get the catalog, you may want to get into some of the videos,
> too. They don not carry Mike Cuy's excellent production (their loss), but
> there are a number of other "how to" videos that team up with some of the
> "how to" books. Even the thick FAA manuals (like 43.13) are in the
> catalog. The reprints of the old "Glider and Flying Manuals" from the
> early 1930s are listed.
>
> Go to www.eaa.org and order your free catalog. Your chapter people may
not
> yet have it.
>
> When I was flying Gulfstreams, the favorite inflight video of the
> passengers was "Those Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines." I
> finally got a copy for myself a week ago. It's enough to make you want to
> go build a Voissan or Antoinette or a Demoiselle - or a Pietenpol!
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
Greetings from a lurker!
I'm currently building a Kolb SlingShot and finishing the wings on a
Pober Super Ace but if I was now at my starting point, it would be
starting an Air Camper. Regardless, I'll be ordering the plans soon.
Maybe I can start on the Air Camper before the wife finds out. (naw,
she won't notice THREE airplanes in the basement)
Anyway, I have a question regarding wood, particularly the use of
Sitka Spruce. I realize it's a great wood but what are the wood
alternatives? Select Sitka is currently about $16 a board foot.
Compare that with White Pine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | (oops) wood again |
Greetings from a lurker!
I'm currently building a Kolb SlingShot and finishing the wings on a
Pober Super Ace but if I was now at my starting point, it would be
starting an Air Camper. Regardless, I'll be ordering the plans soon.
Maybe I can start on the Air Camper before the wife finds out. (naw,
she won't notice THREE airplanes in the basement)
Anyway, I have a question regarding wood, particularly the use of
Sitka Spruce. I realize it's a great wood but what are the wood
alternatives? Select Sitka is currently about $16 a board foot.
Compare that with Select White Pine at about $3.
Just curious to know if this has been already addressed.
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
Hi Robert,
There are a lot of alternatives to Sitka Spruce, the best probably being Douglas
Fir. Sitka Spruce has about the best strength/weight ratio, plus a lot of other
attractive properties, but cost is not one of them.
If you compare strength and density, using modulus of rupture as the reference
for strength, you find the following:
Wood Modulus of Rupture (psi) Density (lb/ft3)
Strength/weight Shear strength Parallel to
grain (psi)
Sitka Spruce 10,200 28
364.29 1,150
Douglas Fir 12,400 34
364.71 1,160
White Pine 8,600 24
358.33 900
All this data comes from Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers
As you can see, Douglas Fir and Sitka Spruce are very close. There is one big
difference that in my mind makes the choice easy - spruce is much easier to work
with than fir. I tried using fir for some of my wing parts and just got tired
of it splitting so easy. The thought of a forced landing with fir longerons
splitting and splintering (and stabbing) is not very appealing to me. It also
has a very disagreeable turpentine smell when cutting and working it.
If you do use fir, in order to keep from amking the plane overly heavy all the
dimensions need to be worked down a bit from the spruce dimensions - otherwise
it will end up about 21% heavier than it needs to be. However, its shear strenght
is about the same as spruce, so I wouldn't reduce any dimension that is
carrying a load that is primarily shear.
I chose spruce even though it is expensive because I wanted to keep the plane as
light as possible, and even though I am an engineer and can do the stress analysis
to safely substitute other materials, I think spruce is the best material.
I have built mine using aircraft grade spruce exclusively, and the total
cost of all wood is only about $2,000. I could have saved perhaps half that by
using other woods, but it would have taken a lot of trouble and time, and I
wouldn't have the peace of mind that I do with aircraft grade spruce.
Whether or not you use spruce or fir, get the EAA's book on wood aircraft construction.
It has a lot of good information on the subject of alternate woods,
and tells you how to select wood for aircraft use. Even if you use aircraft grade
spruce, you will still need to know how to select wood for some of the specialty
pieces in a Pietenpol, such as the white ash cross members in the fuselage
where the landing gear attaches. Knowing what kind of grain pattern to look
for is important.
Good luck,
Jack Phillips
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert [SMTP:robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 8:53 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood
>
>
> Greetings from a lurker!
>
> I'm currently building a Kolb SlingShot and finishing the wings on a
> Pober Super Ace but if I was now at my starting point, it would be
> starting an Air Camper. Regardless, I'll be ordering the plans soon.
> Maybe I can start on the Air Camper before the wife finds out. (naw,
> she won't notice THREE airplanes in the basement)
>
> Anyway, I have a question regarding wood, particularly the use of
> Sitka Spruce. I realize it's a great wood but what are the wood
> alternatives? Select Sitka is currently about $16 a board foot.
> Compare that with White Pine
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Robert,
If you can get some Western Hemlock, it is very good. If not, Douglas
Fir will work also. The Fir is a little more difficult to work as it
splinters up easier than either spruce or hemlock, but not too much.
Cheers,
Warren.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Morton L. Caplan" <mocap(at)azstarnet.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood
>
>
> Anyway, I have a question regarding wood, particularly the use of
> Sitka Spruce. I realize it's a great wood but what are the wood
> alternatives? Select Sitka is currently about $16 a board foot.
> Compare that with White Pine
>
>
I am surprised you can find clear white pine at only $3.00/bd ft. Overuse
has depleted the supply and caused the price to escalate.
White pine is about 10% lighter than spruce, but not as strong. White pine
is considered a weak wood, while spruce is considered to have medium
strength. I am a boat rather than airplane builder, although I will soon be
starting an Aircamper. Spruce is used for wooden masts; I wouldn't
substitute white pine in that application. I have used Douglas Fir, which is
considerably stronger than spruce, but about 15% heavier. In any event, I
would follow the FAA guidlines for wood grading and quality.
Mort
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (oops) wood again |
--- Robert wrote:
>
>
> Greetings from a lurker!
>
> I'm currently building a Kolb SlingShot and
> finishing the wings on a
> Pober Super Ace but if I was now at my starting
> point, it would be
> starting an Air Camper. Regardless, I'll be
> ordering the plans soon.
> Maybe I can start on the Air Camper before the wife
> finds out. (naw,
> she won't notice THREE airplanes in the basement)
>
> Anyway, I have a question regarding wood,
> particularly the use of
> Sitka Spruce. I realize it's a great wood but what
> are the wood
> alternatives? Select Sitka is currently about $16 a
> board foot.
> Compare that with Select White Pine at about $3.
>
> Just curious to know if this has been already
> addressed.
>
> Robert Haines
> Murphysboro, Illinois
I bought all of my sitka from mccomick lumber madison
wi for 9.00 a board ft. it is not stamped aircraft
certified as they keep it in stock for sailboats. but
it is top quality. out of (5) 6 x 16ft bds I got,there
was one that was not suitable for spars. and so that
one got cut up for all of the small pieces
del- wisconsin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
all good info except the statement about 21% weight increase is misleading.
The weight of the wood is only about 250 lbs in a finished airplane (A
guess) That would suggest a 40lb penalty or so. There is nothing but Fir
in my airplane and I finished with a flying weight of 626lbs. I doubt I
could have made 580 using spruce.
Just a thought....
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips (EUS)
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood
Hi Robert,
There are a lot of alternatives to Sitka Spruce, the best probably being
Douglas Fir. Sitka Spruce has about the best strength/weight ratio, plus a
lot of other attractive properties, but cost is not one of them.
If you compare strength and density, using modulus of rupture as the
reference for strength, you find the following:
Wood Modulus of Rupture (psi) Density
(lb/ft3) Strength/weight Shear strength
Parallel to grain (psi)
Sitka Spruce 10,200 28
364.29 1,150
Douglas Fir 12,400 34
364.71 1,160
White Pine 8,600 24
358.33 900
All this data comes from Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers
As you can see, Douglas Fir and Sitka Spruce are very close. There is one
big difference that in my mind makes the choice easy - spruce is much easier
to work with than fir. I tried using fir for some of my wing parts and just
got tired of it splitting so easy. The thought of a forced landing with fir
longerons splitting and splintering (and stabbing) is not very appealing to
me. It also has a very disagreeable turpentine smell when cutting and
working it.
If you do use fir, in order to keep from amking the plane overly heavy all
the dimensions need to be worked down a bit from the spruce dimensions -
otherwise it will end up about 21% heavier than it needs to be. However,
its shear strenght is about the same as spruce, so I wouldn't reduce any
dimension that is carrying a load that is primarily shear.
I chose spruce even though it is expensive because I wanted to keep the
plane as light as possible, and even though I am an engineer and can do the
stress analysis to safely substitute other materials, I think spruce is the
best material. I have built mine using aircraft grade spruce exclusively,
and the total cost of all wood is only about $2,000. I could have saved
perhaps half that by using other woods, but it would have taken a lot of
trouble and time, and I wouldn't have the peace of mind that I do with
aircraft grade spruce.
Whether or not you use spruce or fir, get the EAA's book on wood aircraft
construction. It has a lot of good information on the subject of alternate
woods, and tells you how to select wood for aircraft use. Even if you use
aircraft grade spruce, you will still need to know how to select wood for
some of the specialty pieces in a Pietenpol, such as the white ash cross
members in the fuselage where the landing gear attaches. Knowing what kind
of grain pattern to look for is important.
Good luck,
Jack Phillips
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert [SMTP:robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 8:53 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood
>
>
> Greetings from a lurker!
>
> I'm currently building a Kolb SlingShot and finishing the wings on a
> Pober Super Ace but if I was now at my starting point, it would be
> starting an Air Camper. Regardless, I'll be ordering the plans soon.
> Maybe I can start on the Air Camper before the wife finds out. (naw,
> she won't notice THREE airplanes in the basement)
>
> Anyway, I have a question regarding wood, particularly the use of
> Sitka Spruce. I realize it's a great wood but what are the wood
> alternatives? Select Sitka is currently about $16 a board foot.
> Compare that with White Pine
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
10:41:16 AM
Most of my wood has come from Lowes. Depending on the area of the
country you are in, the wood that makes up their stock selection will
vary. Here in the Southeast, I have been getting white spruce as
their basic stock wood. I have been buying 2x8's that have a good
grain and ripping out clear sections from them. I bought some good 14
ft pieces and got good longerons from two of them and lots of other
dimensioned stuff from the rest. I have less than $100 in most of the
wood that I have.
One thing that I haven't located yet is some ash for the gear
attachment to the fuselage. I'll have to look beyond Lowes for this.
Clear yellow pine is good. It's just harder to work and heavier.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mboynton(at)excite.com |
All,
I've been using Douglas Fir in my project. I haven't been bothered by the
turpentine smell. In fact, I don't really notice it - maybe I've just grown
used to it. As far as the splintering, I have found that as long as the
cutting tools are sharp, it doesn't present a problem.
Warren,
You mentioned Western Hemlock. How does it compare, weight-wise, with Sitka
Spruce? I'm thinking of using a wood lighter than
doug Fir, for my project's tail group. Also, how does the cost of Western
Hemlock compare? Are you able to find it with suitable grain (ie., quarter
sawn)?
Mark Boynton
Gilbert, AZ
>
> all good info except the statement about 21% weight increase is
misleading.
> The weight of the wood is only about 250 lbs in a finished airplane (A
> guess) That would suggest a 40lb penalty or so. There is nothing but
Fir
> in my airplane and I finished with a flying weight of 626lbs. I doubt I
> could have made 580 using spruce.
>
> Just a thought....
>
> Steve E.
>
>
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Pietenpol Hanger |
In my spare time I'm trying to design a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
nearing completion Piet. My thinking is along these lines:
32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for nailing steel siding, top 12' front
dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors on swivel castors.
Sure would like some suggestions on the subject. I have the ground space on
the runway of a cotton field down South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
I was able to find Ash at a woodworkers store near me. They specialize in
all the nice hardwoods, and shiny, beautiful tools that I could hear calling
to me. I had to whistle and walk quickly by on my way to the back where the
hardwood is!
Anyway, check out any of those specialty shops near you. I bought a nice
piece of Ash, and I was so surprised at how cheap it was! I think it was
$15-$16 for a 3/4" x 6" x 6" length. It's now in the floor of my fuselage!
Good Luck!
Gary Meadows
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chambers, Ken" <kchambers(at)sicolamartin.com> |
I wonder how white spruce compares to sitka in strength and weight?
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Bell [mailto:mbell(at)sctcorp.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood
Most of my wood has come from Lowes. Depending on the area of the
country you are in, the wood that makes up their stock selection will
vary. Here in the Southeast, I have been getting white spruce as
their basic stock wood. I have been buying 2x8's that have a good
grain and ripping out clear sections from them. I bought some good 14
ft pieces and got good longerons from two of them and lots of other
dimensioned stuff from the rest. I have less than $100 in most of the
wood that I have.
One thing that I haven't located yet is some ash for the gear
attachment to the fuselage. I'll have to look beyond Lowes for this.
Clear yellow pine is good. It's just harder to work and heavier.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Hanger |
Corky,
On Richard DeCosta's site there is posted a reprint of an old Kitplanes article
outlining the construction of an arch framed hangar. It is a replica of the Pietenpol
hangar at Pioneer Field.
Greg in Minneapolis
>>> 01/09 10:25 AM >>>
In my spare time I'm trying to design a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
nearing completion Piet. My thinking is along these lines:
32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for nailing steel siding, top 12' front
dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors on swivel castors.
Sure would like some suggestions on the subject. I have the ground space on
the runway of a cotton field down South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
12:41:03 PM
I went through some of the forest products labs publications and it
seemed to be quite comparable. Enough so that I was comfortable with
the substitution. That and the fact that locally, white spruce seems
to have replaced fir as the common lumber that is offered in many,
many sizes. I don't have the web address for the forest products lab
handy, but it's easily found in a web search. I downloaded their
handbook on woods and test parameters and went through that.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
"Chambers, Ken"
To: "'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'"
Sent by: cc:
owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:
wood
ronics.com
01/09/2001 11:48 AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list
I wonder how white spruce compares to sitka in strength and weight?
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Bell [mailto:mbell(at)sctcorp.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood
Most of my wood has come from Lowes. Depending on the area of the
country you are in, the wood that makes up their stock selection will
vary. Here in the Southeast, I have been getting white spruce as
their basic stock wood. I have been buying 2x8's that have a good
grain and ripping out clear sections from them. I bought some good 14
ft pieces and got good longerons from two of them and lots of other
dimensioned stuff from the rest. I have less than $100 in most of the
wood that I have.
One thing that I haven't located yet is some ash for the gear
attachment to the fuselage. I'll have to look beyond Lowes for this.
Clear yellow pine is good. It's just harder to work and heavier.
Mike Bell
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Hanger |
Another idea is a Quonset hut style hangar. I had chatted with several
people about these hangars and everyone said "Don't bother, they are way
too expensive". Well, I bothered and have found that the prices are
actually pretty good. I have two quotes from different suppliers for a 42'
x 24' x 17' high quonset hut with end wall and half front wall (no
doors) for $7800 CDN (about $5200 USD). This does not include the
materials for either a cement floor or doors but it can be built on
footings alone. The advantages I see with this is that the building can be
put up in a weekend with a couple of people (after the footings or floor
have been poured) and only requires a couple of wrenches. Also, if you
ever decide to move to a new airfield (they are sold from time to time),
the building can move with you saving your investment.
One advantage of the hangar Richard built is that with a 16' high roof,
you could add a second floor at about the 8' high mark to serve as a
storage area or shop. You may need to make the distance between arches a
little closer like 16" on center (more arches) to do this though.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Greg Cardinal wrote:
>
> Corky,
> On Richard DeCosta's site there is posted a reprint of an old Kitplanes article
outlining the construction of an arch framed hangar. It is a replica of the
Pietenpol hangar at Pioneer Field.
>
> Greg in Minneapolis
>
> >>> 01/09 10:25 AM >>>
>
> In my spare time I'm trying to design a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
> nearing completion Piet. My thinking is along these lines:
> 32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for nailing steel siding, top 12' front
> dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors on swivel castors.
> Sure would like some suggestions on the subject. I have the ground space on
> the runway of a cotton field down South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
> Corky in La
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
| Subject: | Pietenpol Hanger |
Hi Greg,
Can you publish the URL for Richard DeCosta's site? I tried what I thought was
it but couldn't find it.
Jack Phillips
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Cardinal [SMTP:gcardinal(at)startribune.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 12:26 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Hanger
>
>
> Corky,
> On Richard DeCosta's site there is posted a reprint of an old Kitplanes article
outlining the construction of an arch framed hangar. It is a replica of the
Pietenpol hangar at Pioneer Field.
>
> Greg in Minneapolis
>
> >>> 01/09 10:25 AM >>>
>
> In my spare time I'm trying to design a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
> nearing completion Piet. My thinking is along these lines:
> 32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for nailing steel siding, top 12' front
> dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors on swivel castors.
> Sure would like some suggestions on the subject. I have the ground space on
> the runway of a cotton field down South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
> Corky in La
>
>
>
>
>
RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Hanger
Hi Greg,
Can you publish the
URL for Richard DeCosta's site? I tried what I thought was it but
couldn't find it.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: <FONT
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Greg Cardinal
[SMTP:gcardinal(at)startribune.com]
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Tuesday, January 09, 2001 12:26 PM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol
Hanger
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
by: Greg Cardinal gcardinal(at)startribune.com
Corky,
On Richard DeCosta's site there is
posted a reprint of an old Kitplanes article outlining the construction
of an arch framed hangar. It is a replica of the Pietenpol hangar at
Pioneer Field.
Greg in Minneapolis
Isablcorky(at)aol.com 01/09 10:25 AM
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
by: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
In my spare time I'm trying to design
a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
nearing completion Piet. My thinking
is along these lines:
32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for
nailing steel siding, top 12' front
dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors
on swivel castors.
Sure would like some suggestions on
the subject. I have the ground space on
the runway of a cotton field down
South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
Corky in La
http://www.matronics.com/
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| Date: | Jan 09, 2001 |
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
| Subject: | Pietenpol Hanger |
http://www.aircamper.org/PietHangar.cfm
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 C-GREN
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> Can you publish the URL for Richard DeCosta's site? I tried what I thought was
it but couldn't find it.
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Greg Cardinal [SMTP:gcardinal(at)startribune.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 12:26 PM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Hanger
> >
> >
> > Corky,
> > On Richard DeCosta's site there is posted a reprint of an old Kitplanes article
outlining the construction of an arch framed hangar. It is a replica of the
Pietenpol hangar at Pioneer Field.
> >
> > Greg in Minneapolis
> >
> > >>> 01/09 10:25 AM >>>
> >
> > In my spare time I'm trying to design a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
> > nearing completion Piet. My thinking is along these lines:
> > 32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for nailing steel siding, top 12' front
> > dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors on swivel castors.
> > Sure would like some suggestions on the subject. I have the ground space on
> > the runway of a cotton field down South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
> > Corky in La
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> 5.5.2652.35">
> RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Hanger
>
>
>
>
Hi Greg,
>
>
>
Can you publish the
> URL for Richard DeCosta's site? I tried what I thought was it but
> couldn't find it.
>
>
>
Jack Phillips
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: <FONT
> SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Greg Cardinal
> [SMTP:gcardinal(at)startribune.com]
>
> SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Tuesday, January 09, 2001 12:26 PM
>
FACE"Arial">To: FACE"Arial">pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
FACE"Arial">Subject:> Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol
> Hanger
>
>
>
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: Greg Cardinal gcardinal(at)startribune.com
>
>
>
Corky,
>
On Richard DeCosta's site there is
> posted a reprint of an old Kitplanes article outlining the construction
> of an arch framed hangar. It is a replica of the Pietenpol hangar at
> Pioneer Field.
>
>
Greg in Minneapolis
>
>
>
> Isablcorky(at)aol.com 01/09 10:25 AM
>
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
>
>
>
In my spare time I'm trying to design
> a hanger (cover w/ doors) for my
>
nearing completion Piet. My thinking
> is along these lines:
>
32' X 20' , 4X4 posts, 2X4 strips for
> nailing steel siding, top 12' front
>
dropping to 8' rear,8' bifold doors
> on swivel castors.
>
Sure would like some suggestions on
> the subject. I have the ground space on
>
the runway of a cotton field down
> South. No water, electricity, gas or pottie.
>
Corky in La
>
>
>
>
>
> by Matronics and through
> List members.
>
>
> Matronics: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
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> Available at Matronics!
> and save 5% -
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>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 01/09/01 |
I know that AS&Speciality and Wicks didn't have the market on Sitka!
Their prices are highway robbery.
I have been looking at Home Depot and Lowes and they have an
interesting selection. Their prices are always low but it takes a
little shopping around to find the select of the Select. I have
several contacts for Sitka Spruce, I have used Paxton Lumber in Kansas
City and was satisfied with the price.
NACA did a report back in the '30s regarding the alternatives to Sitka
and listed the results for all native woods
(http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1931/naca-report-354). Also, I did
a little playing around in the basement testing some species, just for
kicks. I wrote a little page on my site:
http://roberthaines.tripod.com. The White Pine I am refering to is
Eastern White Pine, much stronger than Ponderosa Pine which is
commonly called "white" pine, at least in my neighborhood. I have yet
to test Douglas Fir, although I should.
I called Don Pietenpol regarding plans. He has changed his mind about
accepting credit cards for payment so I'm on hold untill my next
paycheck. Oh well.
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
Kolb SlingShot (in progress)
Pober Super Ace (in progress)
Pietenpol Air Camper (near future)
1930 Model A restoration (after that)
1 kid
2 dogs
3 cats
1 wife (who actually isn't mad yet)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
It's amazing that I've made all of the fittings for the Piet in a "break" ,
which is just a kind of vise jaws with different radius bends on them.
I clamp the metal piece in them and hammer it with a piece of ash thats
about 1" thk X 2" wide X 2 1/2" long. I've made all of the metal fittings
with this one piece of ash (even one black thumbnail). The wood chipped,
mushroomed on the ends, but never split! It's an amazing piece of wood.
Maybe I should make a key FOB out of it when I'm done.
walt
ps,,,it's nature's composite
-----------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Duprey" <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com> |
Walt: I know where I can get some Ash, but where do I find a "break"?
Thanks
John Duprey
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 6:42 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: amazing ash
>
>It's amazing that I've made all of the fittings for the Piet in a "break" ,
>which is just a kind of vise jaws with different radius bends on them.
>I clamp the metal piece in them and hammer it with a piece of ash thats
>about 1" thk X 2" wide X 2 1/2" long. I've made all of the metal fittings
>with this one piece of ash (even one black thumbnail). The wood chipped,
>mushroomed on the ends, but never split! It's an amazing piece of wood.
>Maybe I should make a key FOB out of it when I'm done.
>walt
>ps,,,it's nature's composite
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com> |
Hi Walter
What kind of ash is that you are using? I know Bernie recommended ash
for the "Jenny" style gear. I have access to locally grown ash that works up
very nicely but in the curing process it seems to split very easily. It is
however a very nice wood to work with. I suspect it is a different variety
than you have and our extreme cold winters probably have something to do
with the splitting of the local variety. Most of the local stuff is referred
to as "Green Ash"
Thanks
John
----- Original Message -----
From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: amazing ash
>
> It's amazing that I've made all of the fittings for the Piet in a "break"
,
> which is just a kind of vise jaws with different radius bends on them.
> I clamp the metal piece in them and hammer it with a piece of ash thats
> about 1" thk X 2" wide X 2 1/2" long. I've made all of the metal fittings
> with this one piece of ash (even one black thumbnail). The wood chipped,
> mushroomed on the ends, but never split! It's an amazing piece of wood.
> Maybe I should make a key FOB out of it when I'm done.
> walt
> ps,,,it's nature's composite
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Borodent(at)aol.com |
On the Pietenpol plans a note tells that "cast aluminum hinges are now used
as standard equipment" -- instead of fabricating out of steel.
Does someone in the Piet group have these or are they obtainable from a
supplier?
I'd appreciate help with finding these.
Thanks Henry Williams -- finishing up tail section--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Henry- Here is the gentleman who sells the cast aluminum tailfeather
hinges. I was stubborn and built mine of 4130 steel. Never again....I'd
use the alum. jobs. Frank Pavliga's flown with them for about 15 years
with no problemoes.
Mike C.
Vitalis Kapler
Phone: 507-288-3322
1033 Forest Hills Dr Sw,
Rochester MN 55902-2365
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Ford Engines/Parts for sale |
>From: "Earl Myers" <LS129RR(at)raex.com>
Earl lives in Louisville, Ohio near the Akron/Cleveland area.
Please contact Earl at this e-mail address above for any additional
details,
Thanks,
Mike C.
> FOR SALE:
> 2 Model A Ford engines (shortblocks), UNrebuilt but turn over by hand,
> appear to be rebuildable. 1 rebuilt stock A head (cast iron), numerous "A
> "parts new (gaskets, hardware, etc a long list) all stainless waterpump
> (leakless), numerous used "A" parts like clutch, bellhousings, exhaust,
> intake, starter.
>Asking $699 for the lot.
>
>FOR SALE:
> Ford "A" powered Doodlebug with running "A" engine. Was running when I
> bought it 2 years ago. Typical doodlebug, looks ruff but has new battery,
> nice nickel radiator shell and runs. Was actually used as an airport tug
> in the 30s-40s which was my intent for it.
>asking $799 for the 'bug.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | A65 pipes from VW exhaust |
Don't know if this has been discussed before, but in thinking about exhaust
stacks for my A65, the storebought ones are not cheap. Got these from JC
Whitney and they are VW heater bypass pipes. Had made and flown these
pipes on a 1/2 VW U/L . ( 2 for $9.95) They are a 1 1/2" OD pipe shaped
like a candy cane with the exhaust flange welded on . The flange matches
the A65. Gonna cut and fit to get the layout that is best, then weld.
You could go to http://www.jcwhitney.com/ and see them,I guess.
If they don't work, the most that I'm out is $20.00 for 4 pipes, and some
time.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
John,
Got the ash and all the ply for my project at Condon Lumber,,,White plains
NY.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: amazing ash
>
> Hi Walter
> What kind of ash is that you are using? I know Bernie recommended ash
> for the "Jenny" style gear. I have access to locally grown ash that works
up
> very nicely but in the curing process it seems to split very easily. It is
> however a very nice wood to work with. I suspect it is a different variety
> than you have and our extreme cold winters probably have something to do
> with the splitting of the local variety. Most of the local stuff is
referred
> to as "Green Ash"
> Thanks
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> To: piet discussion
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 5:35 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: amazing ash
>
>
>
> >
> > It's amazing that I've made all of the fittings for the Piet in a
"break"
> ,
> > which is just a kind of vise jaws with different radius bends on them.
> > I clamp the metal piece in them and hammer it with a piece of ash thats
> > about 1" thk X 2" wide X 2 1/2" long. I've made all of the metal
fittings
> > with this one piece of ash (even one black thumbnail). The wood
chipped,
> > mushroomed on the ends, but never split! It's an amazing piece of wood.
> > Maybe I should make a key FOB out of it when I'm done.
> > walt
> > ps,,,it's nature's composite
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Oh well you know what I mean. But its funny that it wasn't till last year
that I found out that I was spelling that wrong. It would make sense to
call it a "break" because it "breaks" the flat surface. Is the right
spelling like the "brakes" on a car? Makes no sense to me. I'm sure I'll
be spelling it wrong the rest of my life.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Duprey" <j-m-duprey(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: amazing ash
>
> Walt: I know where I can get some Ash, but where do I find a "break"?
>
> Thanks
> John Duprey
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> To: piet discussion
> Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 6:42 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: amazing ash
>
>
>
> >
> >It's amazing that I've made all of the fittings for the Piet in a "break"
,
> >which is just a kind of vise jaws with different radius bends on them.
> >I clamp the metal piece in them and hammer it with a piece of ash thats
> >about 1" thk X 2" wide X 2 1/2" long. I've made all of the metal
fittings
> >with this one piece of ash (even one black thumbnail). The wood chipped,
> >mushroomed on the ends, but never split! It's an amazing piece of wood.
> >Maybe I should make a key FOB out of it when I'm done.
> >walt
> >ps,,,it's nature's composite
> >-----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mac Zirges" <macz(at)netbridge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ford Engines/Parts for sale |
Hello. If you still have the two Model A engines, please let me know where
you are located.
Thanks, Mac in Oregon
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Date: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ford Engines/Parts for sale
>
>
>>From: "Earl Myers" <LS129RR(at)raex.com>
>Earl lives in Louisville, Ohio near the Akron/Cleveland area.
>Please contact Earl at this e-mail address above for any additional
>details,
>Thanks,
>Mike C.
>
>
>> FOR SALE:
>> 2 Model A Ford engines (shortblocks), UNrebuilt but turn over by hand,
>> appear to be rebuildable. 1 rebuilt stock A head (cast iron), numerous "A
>> "parts new (gaskets, hardware, etc a long list) all stainless waterpump
>> (leakless), numerous used "A" parts like clutch, bellhousings, exhaust,
>> intake, starter.
>>Asking $699 for the lot.
>>
>>FOR SALE:
>> Ford "A" powered Doodlebug with running "A" engine. Was running when I
>> bought it 2 years ago. Typical doodlebug, looks ruff but has new battery,
>> nice nickel radiator shell and runs. Was actually used as an airport tug
>> in the 30s-40s which was my intent for it.
>>asking $799 for the 'bug.
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Borodent(at)aol.com |
Mike C, thanks for the info on the Al hinges-- Henry W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)surfsouth.com> |
Hey Larry!
Geeez... That is hilarious!!! So sanctimonious....
You are asking for someone to send you a free copy of a "gapless" mod
somebody developed so you can look at 'em.. Are you gonna "use the mod" or
just "modify someone else's mod?"
In the very same e-mail you imply that the cover of the recent BPA letter
that was sent out was "ruined" by having a GN-1 on it. Frankly I thought it
was a well done publication ESPECIALLY since produced by volunteers and...
c'mon, it was not ruined. Then you rally the troups with.. "Get with it
guys?" Did YOU send them any pictures?
Those of us that have been around a while have heard all this "look down
your nose at the GN-1 stuff) over and over.... Get over it! Some guy
came up with a mod (actually lots of mods) and pretty much plagiarized a
design. So what! So the GN guys can't be in your club. There are a lot of
guys out there that have built, are building, or fly GN's that have
contributed a heck of a lot to this group.
I'm outa here..I'll see ya'll around. I'll just go start my own club :>(
Bert
(whose building a GN-1 and has LOTS of friends who build or fly Piets - and
likes them anyway :>))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets
>
>
> 1. Does anyone have a set of prints for the "gapless" aileron mod from th> e
late Gary Price? Just curious to see how he did it.
>
> 2. I agree with Mike Cuy, the fledgling BPA newsletter has a lot of poten> tial
but we all need to feed it info so it can become more than a list of> who
subscribed since the last issue. Maybe we can get enough coverage ab> out Pietenpols
so they won't have to ruin another cover with a GN-1 on it> ! Get with
it guys!!
>
> 3. I have a full set of the original BPANewsletters but a few have really> poor
quality pictures. I'd be willing to loan them to be scanned if nobo> dy else
comes forward with good ones.
>
> 4. I hope to be flying this summer but probably not in time for B'head/OS> H.
Still have to finish up the wings and engine.
>
> Larry
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at f"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Walt- Good idea to modify the VW stacks. Between Frank Pavliga
and myself, experience has shown that standard 65 exhaust stacks
CRACK over time at the "Y" junction on Pietenpols. Especially the
side with no carb heat muff over it. We gather that those pipes hang
out there in the prop blast (with no cowling to shield them) and everytime
you throttle back, they get shock-cooled. Frank has literally had the bottom
portion depart in flight. (no damage to the plane though.) Weld, reweld, etc.
I found a hairline crack on my stainless pipes at the "Y" last summer
after about 150 hours since new. Rewelded and keeping an eye on them.
Here is what Frank did. He simply bought 65 exhaust flanges and welded
straight pipes to them, I dunno, about 6 to 8" long, and cut with a chamfer
at the ends. He put a can around one with some baffling (as shown in the
Bingelis books) for a heat muff. The only problem he's had is that the
right rear stack produces a bit of a soot/heat mark on the cowl. He solved
this by adding a collar/deflector to the end of that stack. Kind of a tab to
deflect the exhaust outward and disturb its flow. The only thing here is that
you don't want to make these straight stacks too short or you'll shock cool
your exhaust valves upon shutdowns and possibly warp them.
Ever see the owners of P-51 Mustangs put those plugs in the exhaust
stacks right after landing ? Hope this helps !
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/11/01 |
It's a "brake" because it stops the flat surface. :)
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
*****
Oh well you know what I mean. But its funny that it wasn't till last
year
that I found out that I was spelling that wrong. It would make sense
to
call it a "break" because it "breaks" the flat surface. Is the right
spelling like the "brakes" on a car? Makes no sense to me. I'm sure
I'll
be spelling it wrong the rest of my life.
walt
******
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Bert C. wrote:
>There are a lot of
>guys out there that have built, are building, or fly GN's that have
>contributed a heck of a lot to this group.
Yes, Bert....and in my view ALL builders/enthusiast's are welcome
here.......GN-1,
Pietenpol, wether you are using a Subaru or Ford, the short fuselage
or long, wire wheels or Cub tires.....dihedral or none. Not to matter-
this is a good group and all these ideas bouncing around are a good thing.
It's great to have the newsletter back by the new folks doing it. Wonderful-
especially for those who are not or wish not to mess with computers. (as
opposed to those of us who have no choice :)) Hang in here, Bert......we
need you too to make this list work.
PS- I've flown Joe Leonard's GN-1.....and it was WAY fun.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Merrill" <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm not even building a GN-1, but I'll go with you. Tired of the snobs
already. I don't care if they are building paper airplanes or B-25's, just
as long as they are building and flying. Isn't that what it's suppose to be
all about?
Merrill
Mt. Dora, Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shawn" <devildog(at)digiscape.com> |
I remember a while back a discussion about using 1/2" spars for the wing
instead of using 1" spars and routing them, and I'm having trouble find the
answer in the archives. my question is can you use the 1/2" spar direct or
do you need to put 1/2"X3/4" capstrip on the top and bottom ends to make it
an I-beam?? Also, would ribs have to be modified in any way for either
configuration??
Hopefully someone will understand this question and if you have any further
questions, please e-mail me. Thanks!
--Shawn
Gulfport, MS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
Hi Henry,
I understand the Vi Kapler still sells the cast aluminum hunges. I intended to
buy a set when I was at Brodhead this summer, but while there I talked with a
gentleman about the hinges and he cautioned against using aluminum. He said
he had used them on his plane and they continually streaked his tail with black
stain from corrosion. I guess the steel clevis pin and the aluminum hinge don't
get along too well when they get wet (galvanic corrosion). On his recommendation
I used AN42 eyebolts instead, and they seem to work fine. One thing
I should mention with the AN42's - they need to be pinned after installation so
they don't twist and cause a control surface jam in flight. I think Tony Bingelis
mentioned this in one of his books.
Good Luck,
Jack Phillips
Pietenpol Air Camper NX899JP
Wings finished, Tail finished, Fuselage coming out of the jig this weekend
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borodent(at)aol.com [SMTP:Borodent(at)aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 12:14 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail hinges
>
>
> On the Pietenpol plans a note tells that "cast aluminum hinges are now used
> as standard equipment" -- instead of fabricating out of steel.
> Does someone in the Piet group have these or are they obtainable from a
> supplier?
> I'd appreciate help with finding these.
> Thanks Henry Williams -- finishing up tail section--
>
>
>
>
>
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail hinges
Hi Henry,
I understand the Vi
Kapler still sells the cast aluminum hunges. I intended to buy a
set when I was at Brodhead this summer, but while there I talked with a
gentleman about the hinges and he cautioned against using
aluminum. He said he had used them on his plane and they
continually streaked his tail with black stain from corrosion. I
guess the steel clevis pin and the aluminum hinge don't get along too
well when they get wet (galvanic corrosion). On his
recommendation I used AN42 eyebolts instead, and they seem to work
fine. One thing I should mention with the AN42's - they need to
be pinned after installation so they don't twist and cause a control
surface jam in flight. I think Tony Bingelis mentioned this in
one of his books.
Good Luck,
Jack Phillips
Pietenpol Air Camper NX899JP
Wings finished, Tail finished, Fuselage coming
out of the jig this weekend
-----Original Message-----
From: <FONT
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Borodent(at)aol.com [SMTP:Borodent(at)aol.com]
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Thursday, January 11, 2001 12:14 PM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail
hinges
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
by: Borodent(at)aol.com
On the Pietenpol plans a note tells
that cast aluminum hinges are now used
as standard equipment --
instead of fabricating out of steel.
Does someone in the Piet group have
these or are they obtainable from a
supplier?
I'd appreciate help with finding
these.
Thanks Henry Williams --
finishing up tail section--
http://www.matronics.com/
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| From: | "Morton L. Caplan" <mocap(at)azstarnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
>
> Walt- Good idea to modify the VW stacks. Between Frank Pavliga
> and myself, experience has shown that standard 65 exhaust stacks
> CRACK over time at the "Y" junction on Pietenpols.
I am trying to learn as much as possible and evaluate the options before
starting my Pietenpol. What is the A-65 engine?
Mort
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips (EUS)" <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se> |
Hi Mort,
The Continental A-65 is an air-cooled four cylinder opposed aircraft engine of
171 cubic inches, putting out 65 horsepower, and weighing about 170 lbs. It was
designed in 1936 (so it is not much newer than the Ford Model A, but is much
more reliable). It was standard equipment on many planes built in the late
30's and all through the 40's, including J-3 Cubs, Aeronca Champs, Taylorcrafts,
Luscombes, etc. They built thousands (maybe millions) of them during the war,
and you can still pick them up for reasonable prices. I paid $1500 for the
one I'm putting in my Pietenpol, and could fly it as is, but I'm going to go
ahead and totally rebuild it.
It was really a pretty advanced engine for 1936. It has self adjusting "zero lash"
hydraulic valve lifters, and is laid out pretty much the same as all modern
aero engines. I don't know if that says it was ahead of its time, or that
there has been little advancement in aircraft engines since the 1930's (probably
the latter).
It's a good engine for the Pietenpol since it puts out nearly 50% more power than
the Ford and weighs about 70 lbs. less.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Morton L. Caplan [SMTP:mocap(at)azstarnet.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:11 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:55 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
>
>
>
> >
> > Walt- Good idea to modify the VW stacks. Between Frank Pavliga
> > and myself, experience has shown that standard 65 exhaust stacks
> > CRACK over time at the "Y" junction on Pietenpols.
>
> I am trying to learn as much as possible and evaluate the options before
> starting my Pietenpol. What is the A-65 engine?
>
> Mort
>
>
>
>
>
RE: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
Hi Mort,
The Continental A-65
is an air-cooled four cylinder opposed aircraft engine of 171 cubic
inches, putting out 65 horsepower, and weighing about 170 lbs. It
was designed in 1936 (so it is not much newer than the Ford Model A,
but is much more reliable). It was standard equipment on many
planes built in the late 30's and all through the 40's, including J-3
Cubs, Aeronca Champs, Taylorcrafts, Luscombes, etc. They built
thousands (maybe millions) of them during the war, and you can still
pick them up for reasonable prices. I paid $1500 for the one I'm
putting in my Pietenpol, and could fly it as is, but I'm going to go
ahead and totally rebuild it.
It was really a
pretty advanced engine for 1936. It has self adjusting zero
lash hydraulic valve lifters, and is laid out pretty much the
same as all modern aero engines. I don't know if that says it was
ahead of its time, or that there has been little advancement in
aircraft engines since the 1930's (probably the latter).
It's a good engine
for the Pietenpol since it puts out nearly 50% more power than the Ford
and weighs about 70 lbs. less.
-----Original Message-----
From: <FONT
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Morton L. Caplan
[SMTP:mocap(at)azstarnet.com]
SIZE1 FACE"Arial">Friday, January 12, 2001 9:11 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Exhaust
-- Pietenpol-List message posted
by: Morton L. Caplan mocap(at)azstarnet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael D Cuy
Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov
To:
pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Exhaust
-- Pietenpol-List message
posted by: Michael D Cuy
Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov
Walt- Good idea to modify
the VW stacks. Between Frank Pavliga
and myself, experience has
shown that standard 65 exhaust stacks
CRACK over time at the
Y junction on Pietenpols.
I am trying to learn as much as
possible and evaluate the options before
starting my Pietenpol. What is the
A-65 engine?
Mort
http://www.matronics.com/
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http://www.matronics.com/order
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | Build what/how you like.... |
Agreed with Mike.
I'll tell you folks...
When your in formation with 21 other pietenpol, GN-1s, Part-Piets what have
you on the way to Oshkosh in formation, the last thing on your mind is what
kind of wood, what gear, what plans set you used. I'll remember that
gathering till the day I die as one of my best memories of this life. Larry
Williams is a great guy who has a beautiful piet in progress. Just my
opinion, but I on't think his intention is to be nasty or incite the GN/Piet
war. Silly.
I do believe there is value in preserving the genius of BH Pietenpol
however, and will continue to provide clarity to the whole thing as I can.
I doubt there is anyone who hasn't learned from the info on this list. Some
of us even learn patience and tolerance.
Steve E
NX7229R
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject:
Bert C. wrote:
>There are a lot of
>guys out there that have built, are building, or fly GN's that have
>contributed a heck of a lot to this group.
Yes, Bert....and in my view ALL builders/enthusiast's are welcome
here.......GN-1,
Pietenpol, wether you are using a Subaru or Ford, the short fuselage
or long, wire wheels or Cub tires.....dihedral or none. Not to matter-
this is a good group and all these ideas bouncing around are a good thing.
It's great to have the newsletter back by the new folks doing it.
Wonderful-
especially for those who are not or wish not to mess with computers. (as
opposed to those of us who have no choice :)) Hang in here, Bert......we
need you too to make this list work.
PS- I've flown Joe Leonard's GN-1.....and it was WAY fun.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 1/2" Wing Spars |
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
11:05:36 AM
I don't know that a 1/2 inch spar is strong enough. Bernard built
with a 3/4 in that was laminated with 3/4 x 3/4 stock. The top and
the bottom of the spar carry most of the load. The center has only to
resist shear forces. Only putting a 1/2 x 3/4 cap top and bottom
provides additional strength, but it is PROBABLY getting into the
bottom end or below of the strength that you want. Why not go a
little heavier?
"Shawn"
To:
Sent by: cc:
owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Pietenpol-List:
1/2" Wing Spars
ronics.com
01/12/2001 09:19 AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list
I remember a while back a discussion about using 1/2" spars for the
wing
instead of using 1" spars and routing them, and I'm having trouble
find the
answer in the archives. my question is can you use the 1/2" spar
direct or
do you need to put 1/2"X3/4" capstrip on the top and bottom ends to
make it
an I-beam?? Also, would ribs have to be modified in any way for either
configuration??
Hopefully someone will understand this question and if you have any
further
questions, please e-mail me. Thanks!
--Shawn
Gulfport, MS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 1/2" Wing Spars |
The 1/2 x 4 3/4 plank would need to be built up to an I-beam.
Laminate a 1/4 x 3/4 strip on both sides of the spar on top and bottom. This will
give you an I-beam. Additionally, you will need to build up the spar to 1"
under all the fittings. Use good wood and good glue techniques and you will have
no problems.
The other option is to use an unrouted 3/4" plank and build the fittings to fit.
Greg in Minneapolis
>>> "Shawn" 01/12 8:19 AM >>>
I remember a while back a discussion about using 1/2" spars for the wing
instead of using 1" spars and routing them, and I'm having trouble find the
answer in the archives. my question is can you use the 1/2" spar direct or
do you need to put 1/2"X3/4" capstrip on the top and bottom ends to make it
an I-beam?? Also, would ribs have to be modified in any way for either
configuration??
Hopefully someone will understand this question and if you have any further
questions, please e-mail me. Thanks!
--Shawn
Gulfport, MS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: 1/2" Wing Spars |
Shawn- I have 1/2" thick spars on my 3 pce wing and added spruce
strips on the four corners to make it and "I"-beam shape. Works like
a charm. I believe Champs have 1/2" spars too with NO I beam shape.
The way I did it saves alot of routing and is pretty easy to do.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Morton L. Caplan" <mocap(at)azstarnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips (EUS) <EUSJCPH(at)am1.ericsson.se>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
>
> Hi Mort,
>
> The Continental A-65 is an air-cooled four cylinder opposed aircraft
engine of 171 cubic inches, putting out 65 horsepower, and weighing about
170 lbs.
Thanks for the information.
I have been told that the Model A engine, complete with radiator weighs 285
lbs, and I shouldn't use a VW or an aircraft engine smaller than the C-85
because a lighter weight engine would cause c.g. problems.
How do you intend to compensate for the 115 lb weight difference between the
A-65 and Model A engines? Won't the c.g. be too far aft with the lighter
engine?
Mort
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
Walt,
After you get done playing with your welding, make sure to let us all know
of your success. I guess really time will tell, but I really think you on to
something with the homemade exhaust!
Gary
Building fuselage & piecing together an A65.
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
Gary,
My mentor had put me on to these pipes when I had to fabricate pipes for a
1/2 VW that he had built for me. It seems to be all the neat stuff in an
inexpensive part,,,kind of like a kit. If you buy just the flanges,
they're about $7.00 apiece. Then the pipes with radiis bends aren't cheap
either.
Only difference is that the pipe is .050" wall, compared to .035" on the
"from the factory " aircraft pipes. . But Tony B. talks about automotive
pipe in his books, and says alot of people use them. Maybe the thicker wall
will help with the cracking problem that was discussed just before.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
>
> Walt,
>
> After you get done playing with your welding, make sure to let us all
know
> of your success. I guess really time will tell, but I really think you on
to
> something with the homemade exhaust!
>
> Gary
> Building fuselage & piecing together an A65.
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
>
>>
>> Hi Mort,
>>
>> The Continental A-65 is an air-cooled four cylinder opposed aircraft
>engine of 171 cubic inches, putting out 65 horsepower, and weighing about
>170 lbs.
>
>Thanks for the information.
>
>I have been told that the Model A engine, complete with radiator weighs 285
>lbs, and I shouldn't use a VW or an aircraft engine smaller than the C-85
>because a lighter weight engine would cause c.g. problems.
>
>How do you intend to compensate for the 115 lb weight difference between
the
>A-65 and Model A engines? Won't the c.g. be too far aft with the lighter
>engine?
>
>Mort
>
I believe you are a little heavy on the "A" engine. I calculated about
235lbs without the water when I converted form an "A" to a 0200.
For what it's worth, I would suggest that if you are contemplating an A 65
built the short fuselage. You willl have less problems with the CG. You play
with the CG by moving the wing back &/or the engine fwd.
WIth the 0200, I moved the CG of the 0200 11 inches fwd of the "A" CG & the
wing back 31/2 inches. My CG is at 15.5 inches.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shawn" <devildog(at)digiscape.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 1/2" Wing Spars |
Thanks everyone for your answers... I understand alot better now!!! =)
Thanks
--Shawn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 1/2" Wing Spars
>
> Shawn- I have 1/2" thick spars on my 3 pce wing and added spruce
> strips on the four corners to make it and "I"-beam shape. Works like
> a charm. I believe Champs have 1/2" spars too with NO I beam shape.
> The way I did it saves alot of routing and is pretty easy to do.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 1/2" Wing Spars |
In a message dated 01/12/2001 7:26:51 PM Central Standard Time,
devildog(at)digiscape.com writes:
<< Thanks everyone for your answers... I understand alot better now!!! =)
Thanks
--Shawn >>
.......and thanks also to that silver-tongue devil Mike Cuy...he always comes
through as the list's diplomat !!! Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
Walt,
Thanks for that info, I'll bet you're right about the thicker wall stuff
being more resistant to cracking. I'm a ways off from that right now, but I'
putting together an A-65 and any way to safely shave a penny or two is very
good! This sounds like a savings, plus a possible increase in the quality of
the part - that a real winner!
Thanks,
Gary
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 01/09/01 |
hi
were is murphysboro exactly? lots of piets under
construction/completed/in storage in il.
--- Robert wrote:
>
>
> I know that AS&Speciality and Wicks didn't have the
> market on Sitka!
> Their prices are highway robbery.
>
> I have been looking at Home Depot and Lowes and they
> have an
> interesting selection. Their prices are always low
> but it takes a
> little shopping around to find the select of the
> Select. I have
> several contacts for Sitka Spruce, I have used
> Paxton Lumber in Kansas
> City and was satisfied with the price.
>
> NACA did a report back in the '30s regarding the
> alternatives to Sitka
> and listed the results for all native woods
>
(http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1931/naca-report-354).
> Also, I did
> a little playing around in the basement testing some
> species, just for
> kicks. I wrote a little page on my site:
> http://roberthaines.tripod.com. The White Pine I am
> refering to is
> Eastern White Pine, much stronger than Ponderosa
> Pine which is
> commonly called "white" pine, at least in my
> neighborhood. I have yet
> to test Douglas Fir, although I should.
>
> I called Don Pietenpol regarding plans. He has
> changed his mind about
> accepting credit cards for payment so I'm on hold
> untill my next
> paycheck. Oh well.
>
> Robert Haines
> Murphysboro, Illinois
>
> Kolb SlingShot (in progress)
> Pober Super Ace (in progress)
> Pietenpol Air Camper (near future)
> 1930 Model A restoration (after that)
> 1 kid
> 2 dogs
> 3 cats
> 1 wife (who actually isn't mad yet)
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Thought I'd throw my 7 cents in ( inflation ya know ) If you get
your exhaust pipe without the bends, most muffler shops will put
any bends you need on it relatively cheap. With the corvair setup,
I have to make some radical bends in the intake manifold. A neighbor
of mine owns a muffler shop and told me that would be no problem.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Meadows
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Exhaust
Walt,
Thanks for that info, I'll bet you're right about the thicker wall stuff
being more resistant to cracking. I'm a ways off from that right now, but I'
putting together an A-65 and any way to safely shave a penny or two is very
good! This sounds like a savings, plus a possible increase in the quality of
the part - that a real winner!
Thanks,
Gary
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Machine shop costs |
Thought I'd throw this out at everyone and see if the general census is
what I believe. I took my crankshaft to a local machine shop to have the
journals checked and the end tapped for the safety bolt for the prop.
The journals were in specs so I had it polished and the end tapped.
I figured maybe $30 for the polish and $50 for the tap.. This guy charges
me $48 for just polishing and $98 for the one inch tap. Now am I living in
the past or does this sound a bit tooooo pricey to all of you? Now mind you
that this is for a corvair crank,,,, not even a aircraft engine,, Yet :)
Just thought I'd ask everyone as I have become to rely on this list for good
quality thoughts and answers and maybe I'm pissed for no reason and this is
a fair price. Let me know what you think guys,,.
Carl
Please visit my website at
http://www.megsinet.net/skycarl
Sign up with Paypal,it's free and they will
give you $5.00 just for joining.
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=skycarl%40megsinet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
Dear fellow Aircamper friends,
I made a plea a few weeks ago about my need for steel tube fuselage plans
and wanted to thank those who responded.
HOWEVER, I am still in the dark here. (or at least the shadows) I was aware
and DO have the line drawings of a steel tube fuselage that are on the 1937
drawings but these line drawings say nothing of wing, tailfeather, landing
gear or other attachment details.
Rather than asking each "steel tube" Pietenpol builder to re-invent all
these wheels, I thought surely that somewhere out there sombody has
documented this. If not, perhaps I can volenteer. I am a mechanical
enginner but not an aeronautical however.
If any of you folks are flying a steel tube Piet, send me digital photos,
drawings or any info regarding this to:
allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com
I will start building a file that is specific to the steel tube fuselage. If
I do not recieve some help here, I may forego the Aircamper and build a
composite amphibian. ( I am a designer working in the fast paced, emerging
electric vehicle industry and when I get home, I would like to build in a
meditative fashion and not a worrysome one which will require lots of guess
work.)......if I wanted that, I'd build a Wright flyer.
Thanks, and forgive my sarcasm I just thought it would prompt a larger
response.
Allen Smith
VP R & D
eGO Vehicles, Inc.
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/12/01 |
Joel,
Murphysboro, Illinois is in the lower third of the state about 1.75
hours south of St. Louis and about 6 hours south of Chicago. We are
close to Carbondale, Marion, and Du Quoin and not far from Cape
Girardeau, MO.
Robert Haines
******
hi
were is murphysboro exactly? lots of piets under
construction/completed/in storage in il.
******
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Machine shop costs |
hi
why didn't you get an estimate? machine shop prices
are usually higher than auto machine shop. if he sent
it out to be done then you are paying for middleman
services.
--- Carl Loar wrote:
>
>
> Thought I'd throw this out at everyone and see if
> the general census is
> what I believe. I took my crankshaft to a local
> machine shop to have the
> journals checked and the end tapped for the safety
> bolt for the prop.
> The journals were in specs so I had it polished and
> the end tapped.
> I figured maybe $30 for the polish and $50 for the
> tap.. This guy charges
> me $48 for just polishing and $98 for the one inch
> tap. Now am I living in
> the past or does this sound a bit tooooo pricey to
> all of you? Now mind you
> that this is for a corvair crank,,,, not even a
> aircraft engine,, Yet :)
> Just thought I'd ask everyone as I have become to
> rely on this list for good
> quality thoughts and answers and maybe I'm pissed
> for no reason and this is
> a fair price. Let me know what you think guys,,.
> Carl
>
> Please visit my website at
> http://www.megsinet.net/skycarl
> Sign up with Paypal,it's free and they will
> give you $5.00 just for joining.
>
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=skycarl%40megsinet.net
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/12/01 |
Shawn,
There is an interesting report by the NACA done 80 years ago about the
strength of built-up spars
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1920/naca-report-35. By the way,
that server has all the reports published by the NACA and a good
search engine. Since this organization existed and did research about
the same time the Air Camper was designed, several of the reports are
helpful if not just interesting.
I'm sure most of you know this already but the NACA is the predicessor
to NASA before, of course, there was a space program.
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
>
> I remember a while back a discussion about using 1/2" spars for the
wing
> instead of using 1" spars and routing them, and I'm having trouble
find the
> answer in the archives. my question is can you use the 1/2" spar
direct or
> do you need to put 1/2"X3/4" capstrip on the top and bottom ends to
make it
> an I-beam?? Also, would ribs have to be modified in any way for
either
> configuration??
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/12/01 |
hi fellow named harley dahler has several piets down
your way. i used to work in centralia.
--- Robert wrote:
>
>
> Joel,
>
> Murphysboro, Illinois is in the lower third of the
> state about 1.75
> hours south of St. Louis and about 6 hours south of
> Chicago. We are
> close to Carbondale, Marion, and Du Quoin and not
> far from Cape
> Girardeau, MO.
>
> Robert Haines
>
>
> ******
>
> hi
> were is murphysboro exactly? lots of piets under
> construction/completed/in storage in il.
> ******
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
Yesterday we went out to the hanger and worked on the leading edge of the
wing. First, the scarf joint had been cut to join the two pieces and the saw
was set up to cut a "U" shaped channel in the back edge of the L.E., little
bit
at a time. Then the front side was rough cut with an angle to the top and
bottom side. All this reduced the weight of the L.E. by about half and makes
it sort of limp. Then we glued it together, now it's 30 feet of limp.
The scarf joint will be backed up by a layer of Oak Veneer, which I have
had around for some time, on the inside of the L.E. At each rib will be a
piece of 3/4" cedar cut to match the "U" shape of the L.E., with the grain
in line with the cord of the wing and glued in place.
The L.E. will be glued to the ribs and held in place with long drywall
screws
while curing. Once dry, the screws will be replaced and the holes drilled
out
and a wood dowel inserted with glue.
The excitement level is high.
Rodger
Piet in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Daryl Bortel" <dbortel1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
"Bert Conoly" ,
This is such a great country with really great ideas.
This will save us a lot of money we could be spending on our "Flying
Machines".
Subject: junk mail
> <<
> Do You Hate Junk Mail?? - The Solution
>
> This is a fantastic idea - let's all try it!!
> Here's a pretty good idea on what to do with junk mail.
>
> Here's the deal: Tired of getting all those pre-approved letters in the
mail
> for everything from credit cards to 2nd Mortgages, and junk like that?
> If the answer is, "Yes!" read on. If "no", read on anyway since many of us
> don't care for banks and credit card companies anyway.
> As you know, most -- if not all of those letters come with a postage
> "PREPAID" envelope. Why not get rid of some of your other junk mail and
put
> it in these cool little envelopes?
> If you didn't get anything else that day, then just send them their
> application back! Just make sure your name isn't on anything you send
them.
> Heck, you can send it back empty if you want.
> Keep 'em guessing that way.
> Let's turn this into a chain letter! Eventually, the banks will begin
getting
> all their crap back in the mail.
> Let's let them know what it's like to get junk mail, and best of all . . .
.
> THEY'RE paying for it . . . . Twice!
> Only in America!
> WAIT!!!!! HERE'S THE BEST PART;
> You already know that the USPS has increased postage rates again, --
starting
> the first week of January 2001.
>
> Now, if all of us start mailing back all the junk mail we receive to other
> junk mailers in their 'postage paid' envelopes........we just might delay
the
> next rate hike from the USPS for years and years!!
> Send this to a friend or two or three . . . .
> Do it -- and thanks to you all.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Machine shop costs |
Hi Joel... I did take it to an auto machine shop and the work was done
there. My mistake was I talked with
The front desk girl about prices and never got a chance to talk with the
machinist. I goofed on that but I still
Feel that the prices were high.... Oh well,, live and learn I guess.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of JOEL CARROLL
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Machine shop costs
hi
why didn't you get an estimate? machine shop prices
are usually higher than auto machine shop. if he sent
it out to be done then you are paying for middleman
services.
--- Carl Loar wrote:
>
>
> Thought I'd throw this out at everyone and see if
> the general census is
> what I believe. I took my crankshaft to a local
> machine shop to have the
> journals checked and the end tapped for the safety
> bolt for the prop.
> The journals were in specs so I had it polished and
> the end tapped.
> I figured maybe $30 for the polish and $50 for the
> tap.. This guy charges
> me $48 for just polishing and $98 for the one inch
> tap. Now am I living in
> the past or does this sound a bit tooooo pricey to
> all of you? Now mind you
> that this is for a corvair crank,,,, not even a
> aircraft engine,, Yet :)
> Just thought I'd ask everyone as I have become to
> rely on this list for good
> quality thoughts and answers and maybe I'm pissed
> for no reason and this is
> a fair price. Let me know what you think guys,,.
> Carl
>
> Please visit my website at
> http://www.megsinet.net/skycarl
> Sign up with Paypal,it's free and they will
> give you $5.00 just for joining.
>
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=skycarl%40megsinet.net
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
Allen,
I have the feeling that your last note WILL elicit a large response! I'll
add my voice to the chorus. If you don't want a Pietenpol, then there are a
ton of plan sets out there that are already all worked-out for buidling up a
complete airplane from tubing.
The apathy towards your cause may be due to a bunch of people who are happy
to be building WOOD Pietenpols. We all came to the Piet after we'd all
looked at all the other designs, but loved the Piet not in spite of the wood
construction, but because of it. Here you'll find ATP's, A&P/IA's, NASA
employees, aeronautical engineers and many skilled craftsmen, who love to
work the wood. To many of us, wood is warm and beautiful and STRONG. Metal
is cold, utilitarian, with no character. You can only tell a metal tube
fuselage is yours by your welding trademark. We can recognize our structures
because we get to know its grain, we know each stick in that thing. and we
trust it. No, there won't be much sympathy here for someone wanting to
metalize a Piet.
I'm not sure why you look down your nose so badly at wood though. Look in
this months EAA Experimenter Magazine, there's a short article on wood
construction as it relates to spars. As a mechanical engineer, I'm sure
you're familiar with metal fatigue. While wood does crack and break, it is
much more resilient that metal. It will absorb vibration and stress and over
time will not fail due to that buildup. Wood will rot. Metal will corrode.
Both materials have their place, and their following. You won't find a whole
lot of metal Piet builders here.
Someday, I do hope to build an RV-6, that's all metal. Different material,
different mission. I want my Cub replica that I hope to build to be steel
tube. I may want my RV6 to be riveted sheet metal, but I want my Piet wood.
Each to his own. As Mr. Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about
that".
I wish you luck in your efforts to find your perfect airplane. We have all
found ours, and it's made of wood.
Best Wishes,
Gary Meadows
Wood fuselage, Wood tailfeathers, and wood ribs. Each one alike, each with
it's own personality.
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
For you A-65 guys....Thicker wall exhaust tubing is REAL heavy and because
of this, you will end up pulling out your exhaust studs from the cylinder
head or just breaking the exhaust port off the head. That big arm way down
vibrating with all that weight... something about the the weight times the
square of the distance from the center of rotation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Exhaust |
I forgot to mention that the 050 stuff is ok. I am talking abou the
automotive pipe that is over .125 inches thick..... Just think of this big
arm with all the weight swinging away way far down from the motor mount
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Mosher <docshop(at)famvid.com> |
| Subject: | Building up a Continental A-65 |
Gary -
If you decide to build up a Continental A-65, for about the same price for
parts (pistons and rings, etc) you can make it an A-75. You can always use
a few more horses with no more weight and cost. The conversion is simple,
and is even described in the Continental A-65 overhaul manual.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Building up a Continental A-65 |
My Mentor friend and "Continental Guru" told me about this when I was
rebuilding. He did say that you can do that only if the connecting rods
have the lube hole in the crank end bearing. ( The earlier ones didn't)
Guess this was to lubricate at the higher rpms.
His opinion also was that power increase was not that noticeable, so if you
have to replace pistons anyway, put in the 75's. But in my case the pistons
were good, so he thought it wasn't worth the money to throw the good ones
out.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mosher" <docshop(at)famvid.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building up a Continental A-65
>
> Gary -
>
> If you decide to build up a Continental A-65, for about the same price for
> parts (pistons and rings, etc) you can make it an A-75. You can always
use
> a few more horses with no more weight and cost. The conversion is simple,
> and is even described in the Continental A-65 overhaul manual.
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building up a Continental A-65 |
Doc,
I had been looking through the overhaul maunual, thinking that did look
like the thing to do! Considering the weight of the pilot(me), 10 extra
horses will come in real handy, especially in August down here near Houston!
Thanks for the tip, Doc, A-75 it is!
Gary
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael King" <mikek120(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building up a Continental A-65 |
Doc & Gary,
For what it is worth, I have an A-80 in my
GN-1. It was built in 1940. I have the
engine manual that also includes the A-65,
A-75 and the A-80. I believe the block starts
off as an A-65 and depending on a few
modifications, different horsepower
designations are derived.
I am not an engine mechanic, only a guy
with an engine manual with this information.
There is probably not MUCH difference between
the A-65 and the supposedly higher horsepower
ratings using the same block.
Also, what size prop would one recommend?
I have a metal 69x39 but not happy with it.
Thanks.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas, Texas
214 905-9299
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Meadows <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building up a Continental A-65
>
> Doc,
>
> I had been looking through the overhaul maunual, thinking that did look
> like the thing to do! Considering the weight of the pilot(me), 10 extra
> horses will come in real handy, especially in August down here near
Houston!
>
> Thanks for the tip, Doc, A-75 it is!
> Gary
>
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building up a Continental A-65 |
The A-75 pistons have a waffle grid cast into the bottom of the dome to add
addditional surface area to transfer heat out of the aluminum and into the
oil at the higher power settings. Therefore it is ok to use A-75 pistons
inan A-65 but not the other way around. Otherwise they are identical. All
Contintal A series connecting rods made or overhauled by Continental after
a certain date have the oil squirt hole drilled. There is a service
bulletin that advises all A series engines to have these. They squirt oil
across the case to lube the cylinder wall on the other opposing cylinder so
that the con rod for the fron right cylinder squirts a little oil to the
left front, etc. This again is to cool the walls at the higher power
settings. The carburetor is also jetted a little richer although I believe
that the 1-1/4 inch venturi is retained for both the 65 and 75. I also
think that the timing is set a little differently too. The book would
cover this.
Of course, you can do all the mods but the only way you will only realize
the extra power is that you MUST have a prop to spin the rated RPMs. The
A-65 is rated at 2300 RPM so if you have a prop that spins 2300 RPM in your
particular airplane (yes, the prop is specific to the aircraft) with WOT
(wide open throttle) in level flight at sea level, it will still only spin
2300 RPM after you do the mods if you use the same prop. SO you must
change the prop. You can cut down diameter or reduce the pitch. The rule
with propellers is to always use the biggest diameter that you can and
still have ground clearance and not let the tips approach sonic speeds
where efficiency plummets. Following this rule will always give you the
most thrust and excess thrust is what lets you climb. When excess thrust
equals zero, you climb no more. SO maximizing thrust is paramount. Did
you ever wonder how a helicopter with a hundred horsepower can lift itself
and two people straight up!!! This is becuase the propellor on top is so
big in diameter. It turns slow so that the tips don't go sonic and a few
other reasons. Lots of thrust. Unfortunately, slow draggy airplanes like
the Piet do not do well with high RPM spinning motors. THat is why VWs do
not work in a Piet. Even a cub with higher horsepower does not gain that
much.
Also consider that with more horsepower, fuel consumption goes up.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
again, thanks to Gary Meadows for a true heart-felt response to my request
for Aircamper steel tube fuselage information.
just to keep this rolling, I would like to add a little more here.
I hate to see this turn into a contest between materials here. It is all too
easy to reduce things to this. Point is, we all have our fondness for
particular materials and for me, it is more about openness and willingness
to accept the strengths and weakness of all, and apply their use as each
individual sees fit.
As for WOOD:
I LOVE WOOD. I Co-formed the "Traditional Watercraft and Maritime Society".
I have built and crashed hundreds of wooden model aircraft,and have sailed
to the Bahamas and flow to Mexico in wooden craft.
As for Steel:
"Cold, Utilitarian and with no character"?..... My life for the past 8 years
has been sustained by designing and building original furniture. All in
steel and believe me, I have a few clients who would disagree. Clients who
have appreciated the beauty of steel enough to lay down $10,000+
dollars/piece for artistic steel furniture which was designed and built with
character and warmth.
I tend to agree with Gary that wood, as an organic material seems "warm" and
steel, if left out in the cold, seems......well, cold. However, I want to
build an airplane here, not a teddy bear. No one is looking down any noses
here and if Gary speaks for the Pietenpol group as a whole, I fear that such
attitudes will tend to predestine the group to obscurity.
No disrespect is intended here. I am a Pietenpol Aircamper builder and
whether I am welcomed into the group or shunned by purist will not affect my
appreciation for a fine craft.......anybody have any information on building
a steel tube "Pietenpol" Aircamper fuselage? I am using a wooden spar and
tailfeathers....I promise.
Thanks,
Allen Smith
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
Allen,
When I ordered my Piet plans from Don Pietenpol , I rec'd a steel tube
print. Do you have this? and is this what you're looking for?
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01
>
> again, thanks to Gary Meadows for a true heart-felt response to my request
> for Aircamper steel tube fuselage information.
>
> just to keep this rolling, I would like to add a little more here.
>
> I hate to see this turn into a contest between materials here. It is all
too
> easy to reduce things to this. Point is, we all have our fondness for
> particular materials and for me, it is more about openness and willingness
> to accept the strengths and weakness of all, and apply their use as each
> individual sees fit.
>
> As for WOOD:
> I LOVE WOOD. I Co-formed the "Traditional Watercraft and Maritime
Society".
> I have built and crashed hundreds of wooden model aircraft,and have sailed
> to the Bahamas and flow to Mexico in wooden craft.
>
> As for Steel:
> "Cold, Utilitarian and with no character"?..... My life for the past 8
years
> has been sustained by designing and building original furniture. All in
> steel and believe me, I have a few clients who would disagree. Clients who
> have appreciated the beauty of steel enough to lay down $10,000+
> dollars/piece for artistic steel furniture which was designed and built
with
> character and warmth.
>
> I tend to agree with Gary that wood, as an organic material seems "warm"
and
> steel, if left out in the cold, seems......well, cold. However, I want to
> build an airplane here, not a teddy bear. No one is looking down any noses
> here and if Gary speaks for the Pietenpol group as a whole, I fear that
such
> attitudes will tend to predestine the group to obscurity.
>
> No disrespect is intended here. I am a Pietenpol Aircamper builder and
> whether I am welcomed into the group or shunned by purist will not affect
my
> appreciation for a fine craft.......anybody have any information on
building
> a steel tube "Pietenpol" Aircamper fuselage? I am using a wooden spar and
> tailfeathers....I promise.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen Smith
>
>
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Old Newsletters on CD ??? |
John,
I downloaded the video clips of of the Aircamper.org site, and have them on
CD. The site crashed and, as I understand it, lost the vid clips. If I can
help, let me know.
Don Cooley
(ADonJr(at)AOL.com)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
Allen,
I had a snippy reply all written up and ready to send, but I decided it
wasn't in the best interests of the group to send it out.
I hope you can find someone to help you in your quest for the steel Piet. As
an engineer, I'd imagine that you should be able to work out any design
problems, and who knows, even improve it. But like so many of us like to
say, "It wouldn't be a real Piet". Maybe though, it'll be your flavor of
Piet. Whatever you do, don't study too long, build something.
I'd also like to say, that we Piet builders are all pretty traditional
folks, and wood is the traditional material to use. Most of us like it. BHP
preferred it. It's easy to use and doesn't require that much skill to build.
But if you have the skills an inclination, then by all means go for it.
The wooden Piet is a beautiful thing. I guess I got defensive with what I
felt was an attitude the wood somehow wasn't good enough. Either way you go,
you'll end up with a beautiful, strong airplane. That's what it's all about.
It really was a good note though......
Sincerely,
Gary Wood Meadows - yep Wood is my real middle name....it figures.
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
gary
speak for yourself, not the list. mines going to be
made of steel.
--- Gary Meadows wrote:
>
>
> Allen,
>
> I have the feeling that your last note WILL elicit
> a large response! I'll
> add my voice to the chorus. If you don't want a
> Pietenpol, then there are a
> ton of plan sets out there that are already all
> worked-out for buidling up a
> complete airplane from tubing.
>
> The apathy towards your cause may be due to a bunch
> of people who are happy
> to be building WOOD Pietenpols. We all came to the
> Piet after we'd all
> looked at all the other designs, but loved the Piet
> not in spite of the wood
> construction, but because of it. Here you'll find
> ATP's, A&P/IA's, NASA
> employees, aeronautical engineers and many skilled
> craftsmen, who love to
> work the wood. To many of us, wood is warm and
> beautiful and STRONG. Metal
> is cold, utilitarian, with no character. You can
> only tell a metal tube
> fuselage is yours by your welding trademark. We can
> recognize our structures
> because we get to know its grain, we know each stick
> in that thing. and we
> trust it. No, there won't be much sympathy here for
> someone wanting to
> metalize a Piet.
>
> I'm not sure why you look down your nose so badly
> at wood though. Look in
> this months EAA Experimenter Magazine, there's a
> short article on wood
> construction as it relates to spars. As a mechanical
> engineer, I'm sure
> you're familiar with metal fatigue. While wood does
> crack and break, it is
> much more resilient that metal. It will absorb
> vibration and stress and over
> time will not fail due to that buildup. Wood will
> rot. Metal will corrode.
> Both materials have their place, and their
> following. You won't find a whole
> lot of metal Piet builders here.
> Someday, I do hope to build an RV-6, that's all
> metal. Different material,
> different mission. I want my Cub replica that I hope
> to build to be steel
> tube. I may want my RV6 to be riveted sheet metal,
> but I want my Piet wood.
> Each to his own. As Mr. Gump would say, "That's all
> I have to say about
> that".
>
> I wish you luck in your efforts to find your perfect
> airplane. We have all
> found ours, and it's made of wood.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Gary Meadows
> Wood fuselage, Wood tailfeathers, and wood ribs.
> Each one alike, each with
> it's own personality.
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Steel tube fuselage |
List,
I was considering going the welded steel tube route, but also ran up
against the problem of sparse plans in that area. Actually, for me the
biggest problem was that I have never welded. I thought that one of the
best ways to figure out how to construct all the fittings for seats,
controls, etc. would be to borrow some plans for a steel tube plane and
adapt their solutions (e.g. cub, champ, EAA bipe, etc.).
But one of the advantages of the steel tube job (little BHP lingo) is
that it should weigh less than the wooden version. I have generally
heard 20-35 pounds less. I went on a diet instead and have lost 35 lbs.
(I've gained 10 back, but we're going to get after it again soon.)
But now that I've been building with wood, I have to say that when the
saw gets going and you get a bunch of it cut, It sure smells good in the
shop.
John in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/05/01 |
Joel,
You're right, and good for you for building in steel. Seriously, You guys
ought to make a subsection of the aircamper.org site dedicated to steel
Piets, and keep the rest of us woodies apprised of your progress, especially
in the weight department. John in Peoria just mentioned that steel-Piets
might be lighter. It would be interesting to see how that plays out once the
airplane is finished. If it's true, then Steel-Piets ought to be seeing
finished weights in the neighborhood of 600lbs or less. We might be having a
popular uprising here!
Joel, if I offended you, I'm sorry about that. If you're building a Piet,
then you are to be commended, no matter what you build in. I also apologize
to the List. I was out of line, and get a little carried away sometimes. I
thought Allen might be trying to put us woodies down. He wasn't and we
worked it out. Steel is good, wood is good. Just goes to show what too much
idle time will do. I should be out in the shop, instead of sitting at this
silly plastic box!
Now we can all get back to making sawdust and steel shavings! :)
Gary Meadows
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
Wood or steel... sounds like there's an easy solution... build both.
:)
Sure, why not. Just as soon as you pull a wooden part out of a jig,
put some steel tube in and get to welding. Do a good job and I'm sure
someone would buy the parts you don't need.
Robert "tongue-in-cheek" Haines
Murphysboro, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Woodflier(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Plating butt ribs, 3 pc. wing? |
I've finished the two outer wing panels, built according to the 3-piece wing
plans supplement. Those plans show the butt ribs built with extra bracing for
the compression loads of the covering, but do not show that they are plated
with 1/16" ply. Looking at pictures of several Piets under construction, the
ribs sold by Replicraft, Tony Bengilis's book and the Polyfiber covering
manual, it looks to me like the butt ribs ought to be plated so you can wrap
the top and bottom fabric and keep the overlapping seam hidden. Am I correct
in this?
I'm 90% decided to pull off the gussets on the inboard side of the butt ribs
and plate them.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plating butt ribs, 3 pc. wing? |
Matt,
We're building a one piece wing, but if I were to make a three piece
wing I would plate the butt ribs with plywood as you're thinking of
doing. Then you have something to glue the fabric to. Another solution
would be to lay your fabric out and hand sew it at the butt ribs which
would solve the glueing problem, but this takes more time, although not
as much as it would seem. There's never any one way to do things, nor is
one way necessarily better than another, just whatever floats your boat.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi friends
I want to order some parts for my Piet, but i have
any questions:
i looking for streamline tubing 2812, and 1667 for
wingstruts and cabane struts (by the plans)but i dont
know if the number is out of order. So anyone off you
know the correct size for the streamline tubing?
What kind and size off pulleys will be the correct for
controls?.. 2" by the plans or bigger?
on the plans, the large for cabane struts call for 20
1/4, but someone here make it more big for easy acces.
what do you think?
about the wheels and brakes, (600x6) what kind do you
use?
thanks for your comments...
Javier Cruz
Mexico
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plating butt ribs, 3 pc. wing? |
-----Original Message-----
From: Woodflier(at)aol.com <Woodflier(at)aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 9:13 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plating butt ribs, 3 pc. wing?
>--> it looks to me like the butt ribs ought to be plated so you can wrap
>the top and bottom fabric and keep the overlapping seam hidden. Am I
correct
>in this?
>
Yep.
Mike B Piet N678MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <CraigWilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
Dr. Joel:
Best wishes on constructing your tube Piet. Pay no attention to those
sour grapes purists. If it makes you happy, gets you into the air, and
is safe to fly, enjoy it.
Me, I built a wooden plane (Taylor Titch, 1979), and half a plastic
plane (VariEze, 1976). This time it's a steel fuselage and empennage -
the beautiful Bakeng Duce. I hope to power it with a Czech engine, 4
cyl. inline, inverted and supercharged. Just starting on the tail end,
and I've been practicing my welding skills.
The drawings for the steel tube fuselage for the Piet are pretty good,
but kinda generic. And there is no reason why you can't make the stabs,
rudder and elevator out of .500 x .035 4130, with maybe a 5/8 x .049 for
the joint areas. Lots of those little 3/4 x 1.5" tabs to hold the
fairing strips, floor boards, etc. All in all, they will probably wiegh
about the same.
Do listen to the guys on the net - there is a world of experience there
for the avid student. And if you need help with the thing, just ask.
Someone here will have a good answer.
Craigo
Lake Worth, FL
Duce in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel tube fuselage |
| From: | tony_weeks(at)juno.com |
While I haven't started building yet, I am pretty sure I'm going to build
a steel tube fuselage too. My father taught me how to weld as a kid and
with a little practice I'm sure I can make strong, clean welds again. I
have little wood working experience and building the wings frightens me a
bit. Replicraft Aviation has a wing kit that might be just the ticket
for me.
Now to find the time to get started.
Tony
>
>List,
>
>I was considering going the welded steel tube route, but also ran up
>against the problem of sparse plans in that area. Actually, for me
>the
>biggest problem was that I have never welded. I thought that one of
>the
>best ways to figure out how to construct all the fittings for seats,
>controls, etc. would be to borrow some plans for a steel tube plane
>and
>adapt their solutions (e.g. cub, champ, EAA bipe, etc.).
>
>But one of the advantages of the steel tube job (little BHP lingo) is
>that it should weigh less than the wooden version. I have generally
>heard 20-35 pounds less. I went on a diet instead and have lost 35
>lbs.
> (I've gained 10 back, but we're going to get after it again soon.)
>
>But now that I've been building with wood, I have to say that when
>the
>saw gets going and you get a bunch of it cut, It sure smells good in
>the
>shop.
>
>John in Peoria
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Steel tube fuselage |
Tony,
In building,,, it's not the destination,,,it's the journey thats important.
Don't get overwhelmed with great expectations. Just do a little bit at a
time. And enjoy yourself. The next thing you know, you'll look around, and
you finished alot of neat stuff.
A freind of mine B.C. , who started me building, once told me ( and it
didn't mean much at the time) "don't build to fly, build to build "
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: <tony_weeks(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fuselage
>
> While I haven't started building yet, I am pretty sure I'm going to build
> a steel tube fuselage too. My father taught me how to weld as a kid and
> with a little practice I'm sure I can make strong, clean welds again. I
> have little wood working experience and building the wings frightens me a
> bit. Replicraft Aviation has a wing kit that might be just the ticket
> for me.
>
> Now to find the time to get started.
>
>
> Tony
>
> >
> >List,
> >
> >I was considering going the welded steel tube route, but also ran up
> >against the problem of sparse plans in that area. Actually, for me
> >the
> >biggest problem was that I have never welded. I thought that one of
> >the
> >best ways to figure out how to construct all the fittings for seats,
> >controls, etc. would be to borrow some plans for a steel tube plane
> >and
> >adapt their solutions (e.g. cub, champ, EAA bipe, etc.).
> >
> >But one of the advantages of the steel tube job (little BHP lingo) is
> >that it should weigh less than the wooden version. I have generally
> >heard 20-35 pounds less. I went on a diet instead and have lost 35
> >lbs.
> > (I've gained 10 back, but we're going to get after it again soon.)
> >
> >But now that I've been building with wood, I have to say that when
> >the
> >saw gets going and you get a bunch of it cut, It sure smells good in
> >the
> >shop.
> >
> >John in Peoria
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel tube fuselage |
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
11:26:20 AM
"Now to find the time to get started."
Tony,
This will never happen. People who build airplanes are into
everything. You have to make the time. It's hard, there are so many
other projects calling my name at the same time, but I keep getting
back to the airplane on a regular basis. I try to do something
everyday.
Go for it!
Mike
Pietenpol in progress.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Steel tube fuselage |
Mike,
Your advice to Tony is right on the money. If you can do a little
everyday, then you'll make progress. What I'm guilty of is working like a
madman for maybe 2-3 weeks, then going off to other things that I have to do
for a few weeks. The problem I find is that I lose time trying to figure out
where I was, and my time isn't used as effectively.
Tony -
The big key is to overcome that inertia of inactivity, and build something
simple and quick to get started. I love ribs for that. Set up your jig, and
order capstrip, and some 1/16 ply, and go to it! You'll get a feeling of
accomplishment because you'll build a recognizable part, and it doesn't take
long to do. Then you only have to build 27-29 more depending on what type
wing you build.
Put on your Nike's and "Just Do it"!
Good Luck!
Gary Meadows
(about to tackle spoke wheels and straight-axle gear.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tube & Fabric |
hello
thank you for your kind note. i raised a ruckus
because i dont want to see this group becoming elitist
like other groups or organizations have become. i want
to fly and i want that to be the common thread that
unites piet owners. wood or steel--builders choice.
the important thing is that they fly, and people did
not pay someone to build them.
thank you for the tips on construction. i want to buy
some land in indiana and put up a workshop. i bought
both sets of plans-from don pietenpol and orrin
hoopman- who, incidentally has parkinsons disease.
anyway, good flying weather to you, and keep
progressing on your project.
you are also the only person so far that realized i'm
a physician.
take care, jkc
p.s. aren't those czech engines versions of wwii
german designs?
--- Jeffrey Wilcox wrote:
> Wilcox"
>
> Dr. Joel:
>
> Best wishes on constructing your tube Piet. Pay no
> attention to those
> sour grapes purists. If it makes you happy, gets
> you into the air, and
> is safe to fly, enjoy it.
>
> Me, I built a wooden plane (Taylor Titch, 1979), and
> half a plastic
> plane (VariEze, 1976). This time it's a steel
> fuselage and empennage -
> the beautiful Bakeng Duce. I hope to power it with
> a Czech engine, 4
> cyl. inline, inverted and supercharged. Just
> starting on the tail end,
> and I've been practicing my welding skills.
>
> The drawings for the steel tube fuselage for the
> Piet are pretty good,
> but kinda generic. And there is no reason why you
> can't make the stabs,
> rudder and elevator out of .500 x .035 4130, with
> maybe a 5/8 x .049 for
> the joint areas. Lots of those little 3/4 x 1.5"
> tabs to hold the
> fairing strips, floor boards, etc. All in all, they
> will probably wiegh
> about the same.
>
> Do listen to the guys on the net - there is a world
> of experience there
> for the avid student. And if you need help with the
> thing, just ask.
> Someone here will have a good answer.
>
> Craigo
> Lake Worth, FL
> Duce in progress
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel tube fuselage |
| From: | tony_weeks(at)juno.com |
I like the building of any project as much as I enjoy the finished
product but I need to move to larger quarters before I can get started
and that won't be until fall.
BTW, do you know if the 3 piece wing can be easily disabled for storage?
I will have to go 3 piece anyway because of space concerns but I'd like
to be able to hanger the pane in a garage during the long, wet Oregon
winters
Tony
writes:
>
>
>Tony,
>In building,,, it's not the destination,,,it's the journey thats
>important.
>Don't get overwhelmed with great expectations. Just do a little bit
>at a
>time. And enjoy yourself. The next thing you know, you'll look
>around, and
>you finished alot of neat stuff.
>A freind of mine B.C. , who started me building, once told me ( and
>it
>didn't mean much at the time) "don't build to fly, build to build "
>walt
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <tony_weeks(at)juno.com>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 11:55 PM
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fuselage
>
>
>>
>> While I haven't started building yet, I am pretty sure I'm going to
>build
>> a steel tube fuselage too. My father taught me how to weld as a kid
>and
>> with a little practice I'm sure I can make strong, clean welds
>again. I
>> have little wood working experience and building the wings frightens
>me a
>> bit. Replicraft Aviation has a wing kit that might be just the
>ticket
>> for me.
>>
>> Now to find the time to get started.
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> >
>> >List,
>> >
>> >I was considering going the welded steel tube route, but also ran
>up
>> >against the problem of sparse plans in that area. Actually, for
>me
>> >the
>> >biggest problem was that I have never welded. I thought that one
>of
>> >the
>> >best ways to figure out how to construct all the fittings for
>seats,
>> >controls, etc. would be to borrow some plans for a steel tube
>plane
>> >and
>> >adapt their solutions (e.g. cub, champ, EAA bipe, etc.).
>> >
>> >But one of the advantages of the steel tube job (little BHP lingo)
>is
>> >that it should weigh less than the wooden version. I have
>generally
>> >heard 20-35 pounds less. I went on a diet instead and have lost
>35
>> >lbs.
>> > (I've gained 10 back, but we're going to get after it again
>soon.)
>> >
>> >But now that I've been building with wood, I have to say that when
>> >the
>> >saw gets going and you get a bunch of it cut, It sure smells good
>in
>> >the
>> >shop.
>> >
>> >John in Peoria
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patcoolnet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | stair bannister--custom cut for use as a leading edge |
Mike Cuy:
I saw a drawing somewhere (in Sport Aviation or on your video?--which I
borrowed but have no access to now). Can you reproduce it here, tell me
where on the net to find it, or tell me it is indeed on your video and the
cost for one? I am at that point now and I know your information is what I
need.
Thanks--Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: stair bannister--custom cut for use as a |
leading edge
>Mike Cuy:
>
>I saw a drawing somewhere (in Sport Aviation or on your video?--which I
>borrowed but have no access to now). Can you reproduce it here, tell me
>where on the net to find it, or tell me it is indeed on your video and the
>cost for one? I am at that point now and I know your information is what I
>need.
>
>Thanks--Frank
Frank- I show those drawings/sketches of how I did that on the video
but have copies I can mail out for free. Send a SASE to me 7720 Center Rd.
Valley City, Oh 44280 and I'll mail it out. Goes for anyone else too.
Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't answer. I have
built wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88? I can't remember
the name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also build cabinets and
have always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and the joints are
stronger than the wood (of course, this requires a clean joint line
and adequate clamping during cure).
I don't have a good background for what is appropriate in aircraft, is
Elmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the vibration, react
with the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does is work fine and
last a long time?
HELP
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Powning <leopowning(at)yahoo.com> |
Robert,
Phenolic e.g. Resourcinol and epoxy e.g. T-88 are the
commonly used adhesives for wood aircraft
construction. There are strong proponents of both.
Epoxy seems to be gaining in popularity because of its
less demanding clamping pressure and temperature
during application and setting. Check it out but I
think Elmers yellow glue is specified for internal use
only. Anyway the last place you want to look at saving
money is on the adhesive - you don't want to test glue
joints out the hard way during heavy turbulence - so
spend your money on a phenolic or epoxy adhesive. I've
built two aircraft using T-88, been through extremely
rough air, and never had a joint fail.
Leo
--- Robert wrote:
>
>
> I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't
> answer. I have
> built wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88?
> I can't remember
> the name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also
> build cabinets and
> have always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and
> the joints are
> stronger than the wood (of course, this requires a
> clean joint line
> and adequate clamping during cure).
>
> I don't have a good background for what is
> appropriate in aircraft, is
> Elmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the
> vibration, react
> with the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does
> is work fine and
> last a long time?
>
> HELP
>
>
> Robert Haines
> Murphysboro, Illinois
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Merrill <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: stair bannister--custom cut for use as a leading |
edge
Mike:
Can you tell me how much you need to get for the video of your plane and project?
I sure would like to get one. Also, can someone let me know more about the
plans for the gapless alirons and the center section mentioned on the Aircamper.org
web site?
Thanks
Merrill
Mt. Dora Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
Robert,
I'm right there with Leo on the adhesives to use. I also use T-88, and I
know a lot of other guys on the list are too. I also know there are folks
using Resorcinol. I do know that T-88 is easy to work with, it has good
gap-filling qualities, and is STRONG! I have heard it said that it softens
some with heat, but I think we're talking heat like you wouldn't see in
flight. I have heard a lot good about Resorcinol, it's MIL-spec and used on
certificated aircraft, it's good stuff as well, I just don't have any
experience with it. There are some other adhesives out there, but with these
two to choose from, I don't see any reason to try anything else. You don't
want to have to worry your glue joints when you getting bounced around in
turbulence!
Good Luck adn Happy Building!!
Gary Meadows
Spring, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
Robert,
Fokker used casein glue on his early a/c of WWI fame which is essentially
Elmers White glue. And DeHavilland used casein glue as well on their
Mosquito
bombers in WWII and it held up well to the vibration of twin Merlins and
German 88's but when they sent them to the South Pacific the humidity caused
the glue to fail after a while.
But I would be very leery of using the Elmers Yellow Glue in a Piet today.
After all, the life expectancy of a Piet is way longer than either the
Fokker
or the Mosquito in their day was expected to be.
We have purchased 4 qts of the T-88 glue so far and have used only 3 qts
and about 2 oz of the fourth and we are about 85% finished. So the cost has
been only about $100 for the T-88. The cost of the spars FAR exceeds that
and the paint is sure to be way more as well.
There are other glues but T-88 is hard to beat for ease of use and since it
is gap filling, beats the heck out of resorcinal glue as far as I am
concerned.
Rodger Childs
Piet in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: stair bannister--custom cut for use as a |
leading edge
>Mike:
>Can you tell me how much you need to get for the video of your plane and
>project? I sure would like to get one. Also, can someone let me know more
>about the plans for the gapless alirons and the center section mentioned
>on the Aircamper.org web site?
>Thanks
>Merrill
>Mt. Dora Fl
Merill- Sure thing. For all the info on the tape go to this web
site: http://users.aol.com/bpabpabpa/cuyvideo.html
If you have trouble, the video is a home deal, 2.5 hours of me babbling about
everything I can think of about Pietenpols. I show flying, building,
air-to-air
views, other Piets, some of the Brodhead activities,
not much on Fords or Corvairs though. I ask $20 for the
video and $3 to cover priority mail. I ship when I rec. a check/or money
order.
(don't wait for it to clear.) Michael Cuy 7720 Center Rd. Valley City, OH
44280
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Powning <leopowning(at)yahoo.com> |
Robert,
Just be sure to always wear gloves when working with
epoxy if you decide to use it. My friend didn't, he
built a Minimax without any problems and got halfway
through building a Pulsar when he began getting an
allergic reaction. Now he can't get anywhere near
epoxy without extreme discomfort from itching and
rashes. Once you acquire an epoxy allergy you have it
for life. Use disposable gloves available in packs and
throw them away after a glueing session.
Epoxy begins to lose strength around 140 degrees F but
that's not a real problem unless you live in the
Sahara desert or paint your aircraft black. It's a
benefit if you make a mistake and want to separate a
joint. I put small parts in the microwave to soften
the joint and then can separate it or if on a large
assembly I run a hot wired through the joint. Can't do
that with Resourcinol.
Leo
--- Gary Meadows wrote:
>
>
> Robert,
>
> I'm right there with Leo on the adhesives to use.
> I also use T-88, and I
> know a lot of other guys on the list are too. I also
> know there are folks
> using Resorcinol. I do know that T-88 is easy to
> work with, it has good
> gap-filling qualities, and is STRONG! I have heard
> it said that it softens
> some with heat, but I think we're talking heat like
> you wouldn't see in
> flight. I have heard a lot good about Resorcinol,
> it's MIL-spec and used on
> certificated aircraft, it's good stuff as well, I
> just don't have any
> experience with it. There are some other adhesives
> out there, but with these
> two to choose from, I don't see any reason to try
> anything else. You don't
> want to have to worry your glue joints when you
> getting bounced around in
> turbulence!
>
> Good Luck adn Happy Building!!
> Gary Meadows
> Spring, TX
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: stair bannister--custom cut for use as a leading edge |
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> |
11:08:21 AM
If you haven't seen Mike's video and you are building a Piet, you are
really missing out. Lots of good info and the flying is a delight.
Makes you want to run right out to your garage and get busy building.
Mike
Piet in Progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com> |
Guys,
I thought that the Aerolite glue made by Ciba-Giegy was developed for the
Mosquito and that it was the glue used in its manufacture?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
That is correct. I built my piet with it. Tried resorsinal too. Now
prefer t-88.
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
Bobka
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Guys,
I thought that the Aerolite glue made by Ciba-Giegy was developed for the
Mosquito and that it was the glue used in its manufacture?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Merrill <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
Guys and Gals,
What ever they used, it worked. When I was living in England, I had the chance
to visit an WW-2 air museum on a de-commissioned RAF field. They had 2 mosquito's
there. One being restored, the other flying. Got the chance to hop in and
taxied around the field while sitting in the back with a few other folks. I remember
well that its not as big a plane as you would think. Pilot and co-pilot
almost shoulder to shoulder in between the side windows. Much quieter than a
B-25 inside which would leave you saying "HUUUU" for a day. But back to glue.....
I'm still amazed by the simple and strong construction of this bird. The
same type that we are using but it was on a larger scale. If what ever they used
for glue then, I'm sure that our glues and adhesives today are by far much
better and stronger. I vote for the T-88, as I have used it for years and nothing
but great results. I would think that we are building for our planes to
last a life time. Were as the mosquito was built for a specific job over a short
period of time. I'm sure they have been re-built since the 1940's with newer
glues being used to keep them together over all these years. Anyway....just
a few words on the subject for all of you.
Merrill
Piet in Progress
Mt. Dora Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Mosquito glue...? |
As is usually the case, I dredged the type of glue up from memory and when
someone gives another answer it makes me wonder if I've had a senior
moment. So I dug thru the reference books and found "Mosquito" by
Bill Sweetman and illustrated by Rikyu Watanabe which was later
incorporated into "The Great Book of World War II Airplanes" and found:
"Production in Australia and Canada was adversely affected by the only
major technical problem to hit the Mosquito. As soon as the position in
Europe had become more favoruable to the Allies, consideration was given
to the durability of the Mosquito structure in the tropics. It soon became
clear that casein glue was a potential disaster; as mentioned above, it is
closely related to cheese, and like cheese it is susceptible to
micro-organic
attack under warm, moist conditions. Time-expired Camembert, which
rotten casein glue sometimes resembles, is not a good structural material.
The search for a synthetic replacement for casein was long and difficult as
the strong synthetic glues available at that time required either heat and
pressure treatment or destructive acid catalysts (the later problem
contributed to the failure of Dr. Kurt Tank's Ta 154 "Moskito" wooden
fighter. Finally, urea-formaldehyde glues were found to be an acceptable
substitute, using a system whereby the hardner was painted on one face
of the joint and the glue on another. Nevertheless, some casein-glued
Mosquitos were used in the tropics, resulting in at least one fatal accident
in October 1944 and a spate of groundings. According to Professor
J.E. Gordon, who worked on the glue problems at the Royal Aircraft
Establishment, rumour had it that some casein-glued aircraft in the tropics
were held together by the small nails used to hold the parts together while
the glue set. "In most cases this was slander," the scientist wrote later,
"but I have seen instances where it was not far from the truth."
Casein glue is interesting in that it was used in ancient Egypt and then was
"lost" until 1800 when it was rediscovered by German and Swiss
carpenters.
Not being familiar with Aerolite glue I wonder if it is a urea-formaldehyde
that is applied by putting the hardner on one part and the glue on the other
part of the pieces to be bonded together.
Rodger
Piet in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
This is my understanding also. I used aerolite for the ribs and I highly recommend
it for ease of use on small pieces. I found the T-88 to be slippery, making
it difficult to hold the gussets for nailing. Aerolite has been outlawed in
Australia due to its deterioration in the hot/humid climate. Not much of a problem
here in Minnesota.
Greg Cardinal
>>> Christian Bobka 01/18 11:55 AM >>>
Guys,
I thought that the Aerolite glue made by Ciba-Giegy was developed for the
Mosquito and that it was the glue used in its manufacture?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mosquito glue...? |
That's what it is.
Greg
Not being familiar with Aerolite glue I wonder if it is a urea-formaldehyde
that is applied by putting the hardner on one part and the glue on the other
part of the pieces to be bonded together.
Rodger
Piet in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mboynton(at)excite.com |
Hey, guys.
Have any of you shopped prices lately for T-88. I checked AS&S ($25.20 per
quart) and Wicks $25.44 per quart). I was just curious if anyone else has
found a better deal.
Also, are the tubes used in the mixing gun shown in the AS&S catalog
refillable from quart containers?
Mark Boynton
Gilbert, AZ
>
> That is correct. I built my piet with it. Tried resorsinal too. Now
> prefer t-88.
>
> Steve E.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> Bobka
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 10:56 AM
> To: INTERNET:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>
>
>
> Guys,
>
> I thought that the Aerolite glue made by Ciba-Giegy was developed for the
> Mosquito and that it was the glue used in its manufacture?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Well gang,, I am using Elmer's ProBond waterproof polyurethane glue and so
far it's been great. I did a water test on it before I started the piet and
had no problems with it. Let it sit in water for a few days and was still
strong as can be. I guess that Gorilla glue like Norm Abrams uses on PBS is
the same thing. No mixing and reasonably priced.
Carl
Please visit my website at
www.megsinet.net/skycarl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues
I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't answer. I have
built wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88? I can't remember
the name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also build cabinets and
have always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and the joints are
stronger than the wood (of course, this requires a clean joint line
and adequate clamping during cure).
I don't have a good background for what is appropriate in aircraft, is
Elmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the vibration, react
with the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does is work fine and
last a long time?
HELP
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Group,
My information also indicates that Aerolite was developed for
the DH Mosquito. Prior to WW II, casein glue was used for a lot of
wooden airframes. In fact, we were instructed in its mixing and ap-
plication at technical school as late as 1949 because, even then,
it was "the approved aircraft glue" in spite of there being better ad-
hesives such as the urea formaldehyde types (eg. Aerolite) avail-
able.
When I began construction of my Pietenpol in 1959, I used Aero-
lite. Resorcinol was available then, but it was considered tricky
to use by many---although it was (and still is) a very good adhe-
sive approved and recommended for aircraft use. Aerolite has
fallen from favour in recent years and I am wondering if I should
strip the hide from my Piet again to have a look at those glue
joints. I recovered it in 1985 and found the glue joints OK, except
for those diagonal 3/16 inch by 1/2 inch strips in the ailerons. A
few of them were loose, and I reglued them using an epoxy glue.
Both Aerolite and Resorcinol require at least 70 degrees F. dur-
ing application and a good close fit with proper clamping pres-
sure, and I wonder if those aileron pieces were glued at too low
a temperature during a particularly cold winter period. If I were to
build another wooden aircraft (highly unlikely), I'd go with T88. I've
used T88 for a number of years for wooden aircraft repairs, and
for the centerline joint of violin backs and soundboards. It produces
a reliable joint every time and is less critical than the adhesives
mentioned above with regard to temperature and joint fitting.
Wartime aircraft had a short life expectancy and the developers
of Aerolite really couldn't have known how it would stand up over
a long period. My Piet has been flying for over thirty years and
some of those Aerolite joints are over forty years old! The only re-
assuring factor is that the climate here in Alberta, Canada is quite
dry and my Piet has always been hangared. Wooden aircraft have
a bad time of it in the tropics, even if the adhesives used are water-
proof. Regardless of where a wooden aircraft "lives", provision
for drainage and ventilation of the structure is vital.
In the heyday of casein glue, wooden airplanes were covered with
cotton or linen, both of which deteriorated within a few years and
recovering operations provided frequent opportunities to inspect
the stucture. Sometimes the condition of the glue joints was frighten-
ing: I have seen rib capstrips together with some gussets come off
with the old fabric; essentially, the fabric cover alone was holding
the pieces in place! Today, with long-lasting synthetic fabrics, we
don't often get an opportunity to closely inspect the structure and its
joints. The adhesive we use had better be a good one!
So go with superior modern adhesives, like T88, that have been in
use long enough to ensure their effectiveness and longevitity.
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
Carl Loar said:
> Well gang,, I am using Elmer's ProBond waterproof polyurethane glue and so
> far it's been great. I did a water test on it before I started the piet
and
> had no problems with it. Let it sit in water for a few days and was still
> strong as can be. I guess that Gorilla glue like Norm Abrams uses on PBS
is
> the same thing. No mixing and reasonably priced.
Hi, folks. Newcomer to the list. I have some Piet ribs sitting
out in my shop, but the project has been on hold since I decided
that I love welding but couldn't see building a Piet out of anything
but wood. One of these days, I'll get back to it.
Carl, I'd like to see you hunt up back issues of Wooden Boat.
Three or four years ago, tey did two articles about polyurethane
glue. The first one viewed it quite favorably, on the basis of
limited testing. The second did much more extensive tests
and concluded that it was not suitable for boat work. That does
not necessarily mean that it isn't adequate for airplanes (with
the possible exception of amphibians), but it couldn't hurt to get
the author's input. Sorry I can't provide the issue dates.
It might be a good idea to check with the Forest Products
Laboratory as well.
Finally, there was a thread on this at wreck.aviation.homebuilt some
time back. If memory serves, one of the participants had checked
with the manufacturers of one of the major brands -- either Excel or
Gorilla Glue. They specifically said that it was not intended for use
as a structural glue. I'd be amazed if Elmer's didn't agree.
I thought about this long and hard, as the idea of a one-part aircraft
glue is awfully appealing. But my Piet ribs were stuck together
with T-88, and anything else I build will use either that or resorcinol.
Most likely T-88, as Kevin Kimball, of the restoration Kimballs,
reports that he's found loose gussets on old wing ribs assembled
with resorcinol. So far, I haven't heard of any such problems
with T-88.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mboynton(at)excite.com |
Group,
I'm wondering if any of you have found a better price on T-88 than is
offered by AS&S and Wicks. I priced them both, for a quart, AS&S is $25.20
and Wicks is $25.44.
Also, have any of you found refillable, 1:1 syringe type mixing guns?
Thanks,
Mark Boynton
<grhans@cable-lynx.net>
>
> Hello Group,
>
> My information also indicates that Aerolite was developed for
> the DH Mosquito. Prior to WW II, casein glue was used for a lot of
> wooden airframes. In fact, we were instructed in its mixing and ap-
> plication at technical school as late as 1949 because, even then,
> it was "the approved aircraft glue" in spite of there being better ad-
> hesives such as the urea formaldehyde types (eg. Aerolite) avail-
> able.
>
> When I began construction of my Pietenpol in 1959, I used Aero-
> lite. Resorcinol was available then, but it was considered tricky
> to use by many---although it was (and still is) a very good adhe-
> sive approved and recommended for aircraft use. Aerolite has
> fallen from favour in recent years and I am wondering if I should
> strip the hide from my Piet again to have a look at those glue
> joints. I recovered it in 1985 and found the glue joints OK, except
> for those diagonal 3/16 inch by 1/2 inch strips in the ailerons. A
> few of them were loose, and I reglued them using an epoxy glue.
> Both Aerolite and Resorcinol require at least 70 degrees F. dur-
> ing application and a good close fit with proper clamping pres-
> sure, and I wonder if those aileron pieces were glued at too low
> a temperature during a particularly cold winter period. If I were to
> build another wooden aircraft (highly unlikely), I'd go with T88. I've
> used T88 for a number of years for wooden aircraft repairs, and
> for the centerline joint of violin backs and soundboards. It produces
> a reliable joint every time and is less critical than the adhesives
> mentioned above with regard to temperature and joint fitting.
>
> Wartime aircraft had a short life expectancy and the developers
> of Aerolite really couldn't have known how it would stand up over
> a long period. My Piet has been flying for over thirty years and
> some of those Aerolite joints are over forty years old! The only re-
> assuring factor is that the climate here in Alberta, Canada is quite
> dry and my Piet has always been hangared. Wooden aircraft have
> a bad time of it in the tropics, even if the adhesives used are water-
> proof. Regardless of where a wooden aircraft "lives", provision
> for drainage and ventilation of the structure is vital.
>
> In the heyday of casein glue, wooden airplanes were covered with
> cotton or linen, both of which deteriorated within a few years and
> recovering operations provided frequent opportunities to inspect
> the stucture. Sometimes the condition of the glue joints was frighten-
> ing: I have seen rib capstrips together with some gussets come off
> with the old fabric; essentially, the fabric cover alone was holding
> the pieces in place! Today, with long-lasting synthetic fabrics, we
> don't often get an opportunity to closely inspect the structure and its
> joints. The adhesive we use had better be a good one!
>
> So go with superior modern adhesives, like T88, that have been in
> use long enough to ensure their effectiveness and longevitity.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mosquito glue...? |
I used this stuff on ribs that I made for another aircraft type and it
worked really well. You mix a powder with water to a buttery consistency
and then use a stick to swap it on the capstrip material, then use the
waterlike liquid hardener with a brush to "paint" the gusset. Put the two
together and nail/clamp and the next morning it is cured. It is very light
in weight unlike epoxy which is incredibly heavy.
Cleanup is with water while it is still uncured. Very friendly. Epoxy can
be a mess.
Needs warm temps for both glue, material, and drying conditions. like
greater than 70 degrees F.
Must be clamped adequately,
Must have well fitting joints.
Most times when you are using gussets, you clamp and fit well, SO it is
the temp that is the factor,
It is light and that is a really good attribute.
Epoxy is good in that the squeeze out can be smeared down and used to seal
the wood. With any of the other glues, you try to show squeeze out but do
try to minimize it as many of the varnishes won't adhere to it for the long
term.
Chris Bobka
EAA Tech Counselor - MSP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com> |
Really Greg? I thought you used epoxy
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Copeland <copeland(at)sdcoe.k12.ca.us> |
Well, I had to get in on this one. As a former wooden boat builder turned
teacher and pilot, I feel I do have some things to add. Building composite
trimarans I spent a lot of time with epoxies, and later learned about
resorcinol with traditional construction. Here are my thoughts, based on
experience.
Polyurethanes are the latest - greatest, but like epoxies, represent major
health risks. I won't ever use them simply because of exposure.
Epoxies are also dangerous to be around. They are wonderful because of
their versatility. To give you some more substantial numbers, typical epoxies
of the variety you are talking about here (WEST, System Three, etc.) loose
roughly 40% of their strength at 120 degrees. No big deal for ribs, yes.
Another concern is epoxies don't tolerate moisture cycling very well, and
that's why epoxy boats must be completely encapsulated. Finally, UV light acts
much faster than you would ever guess on unprotected epoxy. Laminate an epoxy
panel, leave it uncoated out in the sun and moisture and it's shot well within
a year. Something to think about with those ribs sitting around the shop year
after year.
Oh, by the way, you can't tolerate the weight of a fully encapsulated
wood/epoxy aircraft structure if you have any value for your empty weight.
Resorcinol does require more careful joints and (some argue) temperatures,
but nothing outside the usual practices building an aircraft! Toxicity has a
longer term history for us to evaluate. For some woods, like oak, it is simply
far superior to epoxy. We laminated an oak stem for a schooner with epoxy and
it popped, or "showed", its joints within a year. (No major concern when
you've got 1/2 inch through bolts.) Most people who use oak know this.
Moisture cycling is not as big of a problem as with epoxies - and don't just
think this applies to boats here. A skinned structure like a fuselage or wing
will really expand and contract. Here's one major problem: I think you'll be
hard pressed to find any resorcinol within a year. I've been told it's retail
distribution is going to be halted. I check the usual shelf at Home Depot last
weekend, and sure enough, it was gone. My two cents, for a wood aircraft I
would prefer one glued with resorcinol - without a doubt.
Urea glues like Weldwood are great as well. You'll find them at Home Depot
and Aircraft Spruce! Premiere mast builders use it for invisible glue joints
on spruce. History has shown it works great in this difficult environment and
service. It's inexpensive, although I don't think that's much of an issue.
Water clean up is my big reason to use it. Old timers will tell you it works
because wood and water always work together, meaning: the water carries the
adhesive back into the wood structure.
Now,... I'm really impressed with Franklin's Titebond II carpentry glue.
You can get it everywhere. See what you think.
To put this discussion into perspective, you simply need to meet the wood's
strength (which any of these glues will do many times over)...but (I think) for
at least 40 years!
Scot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
Nope. I used Aerolite on all of the ribs except two. I had some
T-88 laying around (on sale at Rockler for $16.00/qt) and wanted to try it.
T-88 has the consistency of warm grease and is just about as slippery. Trying to
hold a gusset in place while nailing it down was difficult. A little bit of
T-88 goes a LONG way. A little bit more is way too much and makes a huge mess.
I ended up with some big globs of cured epoxy in places I couldn't reach to scrape
off while it was wet.
I found the Aerolite to be much easier to use on the ribs. After putting the resin
on one surface and the hardener on the other you mate the pieces and hold
for about 5 seconds until you feel it "grab". Then nail it in place.
T-88 was used on the rest of the airplane. Very nice to use on larger joints when
there is a need to move things around a bit while clamping.
Greg in Minneapolis
>>> Christian Bobka 01/18 4:45 PM >>>
Really Greg? I thought you used epoxy
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dominic Excell" <dominic.excell(at)ewol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 01/18/01 |
A further proof of the problems with casein glue, is that early examples of
the Fokker DR1 (triplane) failed with frightening regularity. The cause was
discovered to be failure of the wing spars due to poor adhesive quality and
application. (They were a built up single box spar, one per wing). Once
moisture was added to the equation, the result was yet another fatality,
with no cost to the opposing side!
Dominic Excell
(Piet in dreaming stage!)
> From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>
<childsway@indian-creek.net>
>
> Robert,
>
> Fokker used casein glue on his early a/c of WWI fame which is essentially
> Elmers White glue. And DeHavilland used casein glue as well on their
> Mosquito
> bombers in WWII and it held up well to the vibration of twin Merlins and
> German 88's but when they sent them to the South Pacific the humidity
caused
> the glue to fail after a while.
>
> But I would be very leery of using the Elmers Yellow Glue in a Piet today.
> After all, the life expectancy of a Piet is way longer than either the
> Fokker
> or the Mosquito in their day was expected to be.
> Rodger Childs
> Piet in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
Scot,
I read your post with great interest. I have been conducting an on-going
informal experiment that indicates your information regarding moisture
cycling and possibly UV may not be correct in reference to T-88 anyway. I
have had a "cut off " section of my first Hatz wingtip bow which
is 8 pieces of 1/8 by 3/4 spruce laminated in a curved shape, sitting on an
exterior (weather facing) window sill for just over a rear now. This is a
window under a 1 foot eve on a west
facing wall here in Texas so it has received extremes of UV, heat and cold,
and a fair amount of
moisture cycling. There is no protective coating on this part at all. At
this point the part looks
nearly as good as the day I put it there, with slight greying/aging of the
wood as the only change. The glue joints show no deterioration and have held
fine through occasional "strike it on the wall" tests. Admittedly
un-scientific but my results are similar to Tony Bengelis' "parts on his
gatepost" tests he talks of in his books.
I would also like to hear more about how you determined that epoxies lose
40% strength at 120 degrees. I believe standard thinking is that T-88
"Starts" to lose strength at 150 degrees. I have
a Chem tech lab report that gives these results I believe, although I don't
have it here at work to refer to. 40% at 120 degrees would not be adequate
for my peace of mind, for Texas summers anyway. I occasionally fly the
Diamond Katana all composite airplane. Part of the preflight of that
aircraft is the inspection of an internal hull
temperature sensor and the temp limit is 135 degrees. Knowing the FAA, this
is conservative.
----- Original Message -----
From: Scot Copeland <copeland(at)sdcoe.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>
> Well, I had to get in on this one. As a former wooden boat builder turned
> teacher and pilot, I feel I do have some things to add. Building
composite
> trimarans I spent a lot of time with epoxies, and later learned about
> resorcinol with traditional construction. Here are my thoughts, based on
> experience.
> Polyurethanes are the latest - greatest, but like epoxies, represent
major
> health risks. I won't ever use them simply because of exposure.
> Epoxies are also dangerous to be around. They are wonderful because
of
> their versatility. To give you some more substantial numbers, typical
epoxies
> of the variety you are talking about here (WEST, System Three, etc.) loose
> roughly 40% of their strength at 120 degrees. No big deal for ribs, yes.
> Another concern is epoxies don't tolerate moisture cycling very well, and
> that's why epoxy boats must be completely encapsulated. Finally, UV light
acts
> much faster than you would ever guess on unprotected epoxy. Laminate an
epoxy
> panel, leave it uncoated out in the sun and moisture and it's shot well
within
> a year. Something to think about with those ribs sitting around the shop
year
> after year.
> Oh, by the way, you can't tolerate the weight of a fully encapsulated
> wood/epoxy aircraft structure if you have any value for your empty weight.
> Resorcinol does require more careful joints and (some argue)
temperatures,
> but nothing outside the usual practices building an aircraft! Toxicity
has a
> longer term history for us to evaluate. For some woods, like oak, it is
simply
> far superior to epoxy. We laminated an oak stem for a schooner with epoxy
and
> it popped, or "showed", its joints within a year. (No major concern when
> you've got 1/2 inch through bolts.) Most people who use oak know this.
> Moisture cycling is not as big of a problem as with epoxies - and don't
just
> think this applies to boats here. A skinned structure like a fuselage or
wing
> will really expand and contract. Here's one major problem: I think you'll
be
> hard pressed to find any resorcinol within a year. I've been told it's
retail
> distribution is going to be halted. I check the usual shelf at Home Depot
last
> weekend, and sure enough, it was gone. My two cents, for a wood aircraft
I
> would prefer one glued with resorcinol - without a doubt.
> Urea glues like Weldwood are great as well. You'll find them at Home
Depot
> and Aircraft Spruce! Premiere mast builders use it for invisible glue
joints
> on spruce. History has shown it works great in this difficult environment
and
> service. It's inexpensive, although I don't think that's much of an
issue.
> Water clean up is my big reason to use it. Old timers will tell you it
works
> because wood and water always work together, meaning: the water carries
the
> adhesive back into the wood structure.
> Now,... I'm really impressed with Franklin's Titebond II carpentry
glue.
> You can get it everywhere. See what you think.
> To put this discussion into perspective, you simply need to meet the
wood's
> strength (which any of these glues will do many times over)...but (I
think) for
> at least 40 years!
> Scot
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Robert,
Some people have used Elmer's Wood glue, but I wouldn't want to. We used
T-88 on our project and feel very comfortable with it. I received an
catalog the other day from a wood working supplier in Minnesota and they
are advertising T-88 at $12.99 for an * 0z. quatity -- how this relates
to a quart I haven't looked into yet. We just bought a quart supply for
$25.00 and probably won't need any more on this project. The supplier is
Rockler, 4365 Willow Drive, Medina, MN 55340 and their phone # is
800-279-4441. I never heard of them before I got the catalog.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Elmer's and Pine |
Group- We've got some great glues out there. If your wood
breaks and not the glue you are in business.
Not to suggest anyone do this, but I know of a gentleman
who built a Pietenpol many years ago with Elmer's white glue
(not the furniture type like Elmer's Pro Bond that Carl Loar mentioned
which is excellent glue.) and white pine from his local lumber yard.
He flew that plane for about 10 years before stall-spinning it in. He was
fine. The plane was a mess, but gave good service using materials
that most of us wouldn't. Anything better than what he used should give
all of us peace of mind.
________________________________________________________________________________
The Mosquito was originally built with cassein glue like everything else
back then, but a couple of these plane fell apart in flight in Borneo
because of microbes eating at the glue. Resorcinal was developed to cure
the problem. Resorcinal also came in other brand names.
John Langston
Pipe Creek, TX
nle97(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Something triggered an experience I had when
building. When I began to buy turnbuckles, shackles, and AN
hardware it made the cost of glue ( I used T-88) look like pocket
change :))
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Merrill <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Builders in my area |
I know there are a few builders of Piet's in my area, just cant find the list of
names and phone numbers I had. I live in Mt. Dora Florida, and I know there
is a guy on the list building in Tavares. Anyway, I have the day off from work
tomorrow,(very unusual) and I sure would like to eyeball another's project.
If you are in my area of central Florida, get back with me on the list so we
can make contact.
Thanks list
Merrill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
Group -
ALL RIGHT looks like it'll be T-88 for me (or maybe Titebond II).
As far as the other choices, I went to Lowes and checked the selection
and read labels. Yellow glue (Elmers or Titebond) is a water
resistant version of the white glue (read: gradeschool paste snack).
Elmers has a disclamer that it is not to be used for structural
purposes. I wonder why they call it Construction Glue? Titebond
suggests that for structural exterior purposes, use Titebond II, it is
presumably waterproof. Of all those glues, that one is supposed to be
the best.
The Gorilla Glue / Grizzly Glue / ProBond are all polyurethane based
glues. I have had some experience with them and they are neat. They
react with the humidity in the air whatever is being glued to cure and
they expand and fill joints. Although, there is a disclaimer printed
on all of them not to be used below the waterline. If you use this
glue make sure you never get your glued parts wet (no problem, water
NEVER gets in a wing, right!?).
Mark Boynton -
Purchase two separate plastic syringes, one for the resign and one for
the hardener. Wicks has them for a couple of dollars.
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Boyd" <pietenpol41(at)hotmail.com> |
I had a glider builder of many years introduce me to The West System. It's a
great epoxy glue originally designed for marine construction. Easy to use,
no smell, good working time, dries in 6-8 hrs. Available from WICKS. Good
building times to you. Dave Boyd Champaign, IL
>From: "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:22:26 -0600
>
>
>I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't answer. I have
>built wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88? I can't remember
>the name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also build cabinets and
>have always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and the joints are
>stronger than the wood (of course, this requires a clean joint line
>and adequate clamping during cure).
>
>I don't have a good background for what is appropriate in aircraft, is
>Elmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the vibration, react
>with the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does is work fine and
>last a long time?
>
>HELP
>
>
>Robert Haines
>Murphysboro, Illinois
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Powning <leopowning(at)yahoo.com> |
Mike,
Thanks for your informative post. I've often wondered
about the temp inside my Minimax wing during takeoff
after the aircraft has been sitting on the airstrip
for hours in the sun on a very hot day.
Leo
--- Mike wrote:
>
>
> Scot,
> ... I have been
> conducting an on-going
> informal experiment .......
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http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Powning <leopowning(at)yahoo.com> |
I read somewhere that engines fell out after takeoff
killing several pilots on test flights at Sydney
factory during WW2 causing Geoffrey de Havilland to
visit Australia to check construction method. Don't
know if it was the glueing technique which caused the
problem.
Leo
--- nle97(at)juno.com wrote:
>
> The Mosquito was originally built with cassein glue
> like everything else
> back then, but a couple of these plane fell apart in
> flight in Borneo
> because of microbes eating at the glue.
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elmer's and Pine |
>
>Group- We've got some great glues out there. If your wood
>breaks and not the glue you are in business.
>
>Not to suggest anyone do this, but I know of a gentleman
>who built a Pietenpol many years ago with Elmer's white glue
>(not the furniture type like Elmer's Pro Bond that Carl Loar mentioned
>which is excellent glue.) and white pine from his local lumber yard.
>He flew that plane for about 10 years before stall-spinning it in. He was
>fine. The plane was a mess, but gave good service using materials
>that most of us wouldn't. Anything better than what he used should give
>all of us peace of mind.
>
Correct me if I am wrong, but white pine is a FAA approved material & I do
believe that weldwood glue is the only FAA approved glue.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shawn" <devildog(at)digiscape.com> |
I was just wondering if anyone here had any experiences with the rotary
engines, like the Mazda RX7's have (or had) and if they would be good on an
aircamper!?! If anyone could give me any information about them I would
appreciate it! Thanks!!
One other question.. I've heard about using a Subaru engine.. but can't
remember if it was an EA81 or EA82.. Thanks ahead of time for any input!
--Shawn
Gulfport, MS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elmer's and Pine |
Michael Brusilow observed:
> Correct me if I am wrong, but white pine is a FAA approved material
> & I do believe that weldwood glue is the only FAA approved glue.
White pine surely is approved, though AC 43.13-1b notes that
it is "somewhat low in hardness and shock-resisting capacity.
Cannot be used as substitute for spruce without increase in sizes
to compensate for lesser strength." That last probably doesn't
apply to the Piet, of course, given how much it's overbuilt.
I've attached the section of AC 43.13-1b that deals with glue.
My machine was virus-free until this e-mail, none of which had
any attachments, so the file should be safe.
If you don't want to bother opening it, the gist is that the FAA
more or less passes the buck. What they say is,
"(2) Adhesives meeting the requirements of a Military
Specification (Mil Spec), Aerospace Material Specification
(AMS), or Technical Standard Order (TSO) for wooden aircraft
structures are satisfactory providing they are found to be
compatible with existing structural materials in the aircraft
and the fabrication methods to be used in the repair."
Then they look at half a dozen varieties of glue. They say that
casein glues are obsolete, urea-formaldehyde glues "should
be considered obsolete," and phenol-formaldehyde glues are
"not practical for use in structural repair." (I think Weldwood
is a phenol-formaldehyde glue, but can't remember for sure.)
Epoxies get qualified approval "providing they meet the
requirements of paragraph 1-4a," of which the quotation above
is the clearest part. The only unqualified endorsement is for
resorcinol, which they say "fully meets necessary strength and
durability requirements."
The entire text of AC 43.13-1b can be downloaded as zipped
PDF files at http://www.moneypit.net/~pratt/ac43/ .
(Incidentally, hi, Mike. We met years ago, when Don Stoops
came by to pick up that Ford engine. He's flying an Ercoupe
these days. Neither of us has yet gotten a Piet into the air.
It's coming, though. Hope all's well with you.)
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com> |
I have a picture of the De Havilland plant in Toronto Ontario taken during
their WW2 production run of Mosquitos. There is a large sign on the shop
wall
that reads
" Whatever you do, DON'T SPARE THE GLUE ! "
John Mc
----- Original Message -----
From: <nle97(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>
> The Mosquito was originally built with cassein glue like everything else
> back then, but a couple of these plane fell apart in flight in Borneo
> because of microbes eating at the glue. Resorcinal was developed to cure
> the problem. Resorcinal also came in other brand names.
>
> John Langston
> Pipe Creek, TX
> nle97(at)juno.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Butcher <rbutch(at)inreach.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mike Cuy's Video |
I highly agree with Mike Bell's endorsement of the Mike Cuy video. Not
only does he provide a lot od detail on his Piet, but there are some
awesome flying pictures of Mike Cuy's Pietenpol as well as a few
others. In the for-what-it's-worth department, I have found another
very useful trick in using his video. We all know how confusing the
plans seem to be at times and I have set with the plans in my lap and
remote in hand ready to stop the video at a key point to help me
understand what the plans are trying to depict. It is a very worthwhile
resource for any Pietenpol builder.
Ron Butcher
Tail nearly done
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elmer's and Pine |
I said:
> I've attached the section of AC 43.13-1b that deals with glue.
Oops. Didn't realize this list filters attachments. I'll have to
read the sign-up details more carefully. The file I referred to
in the original message can be found as part of Chapter 1
at http://www.moneypit.net/~pratt/ac43/ . If anyone wants
just the page or so on glue, contact me off the list, and I'll
be happy to e-mail it.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <J-M-Duprey(at)erols.com> |
I checked out Rockler.com they do have 8oz T-88 for $12.99 as opposed to
$25.00 for Aircraft Spruces Quart. If you don't need much rocklers is
the way to go. But if I remember my measures right their are 32oz in a
quart so Rockler is twice the price per oz.(Ouch).
Keep Building
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet List"
| Subject: | highest peak in FL |
Awhile back I had a chance to fly in a restored PT19 in FL., and while
chewing the fat about the airspaces, I was told that the highest "peak" in
FL. was a sanitary landfill near Miami . Is this true? Or has my leg been
pulled.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: highest peak in FL |
>
>Awhile back I had a chance to fly in a restored PT19 in FL., and while
>chewing the fat about the airspaces, I was told that the highest "peak"
in
>FL. was a sanitary landfill near Miami . Is this true? Or has my leg
been
>pulled.
>walt
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
True. I have passed by this landfill several times. I have seen no
higher elevation in Fl.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <CraigWilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: highest peak in FL |
That landfill is about 250-300' high. The highest natural point in Fla is
382', south of Tallahassee.
Awfully flat here.
Craig
Lake Worth, FL
Bakeng Duce finally underway
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: highest peak in FL
>
> Awhile back I had a chance to fly in a restored PT19 in FL., and while
> chewing the fat about the airspaces, I was told that the highest "peak" in
> FL. was a sanitary landfill near Miami . Is this true? Or has my leg
been
> pulled.
> walt
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/20/01 |
T-88 (8 oz. or 1/2 pint kits) costs:
Rockler - $12.99
A S & S - $12.70
Wicks - $12.89
Direct from System 3 - $14.00
The costs per volume is not a linear relationship so the pint kit does
not cost twice as much, only a little more, and the quart kit is
again, only a little more. I think if you bought empty bottles, it
would still cost you $10 (ha ha).
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Matronics Web Server Upgrade... |
B
Dear Listers,
I will be upgrading the Matronics Web Server this afternoon (1/21/01)
and will be taking it offline for a number of hours. I hope to have it
back online by this evening sometime, depending on how well the upgrade
goes.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elmer's and Pine |
We have to remember something important... in the 30's
there was no "approved" materials for building as we
have now, at least to homebuilders (there were so few
designs and builders) so planes that succeded, one is
the Pietenpol, were build (maybe overbuild a little)
to compensate the "off the shelf" but carefully chosen
meterials.
My only advise: use the materials as good and
expensive as your piece of mind kind afford (research
and read all available options)... But get confident
with the plane you built, even if you use "old time
proved" materials and second hand parts.
If you don't do that, your plane will finish as a
static display in a local musseum :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
>
> Group- We've got some great glues out there. If
> your wood
> breaks and not the glue you are in business.
>
> Not to suggest anyone do this, but I know of a
> gentleman
> who built a Pietenpol many years ago with Elmer's
> white glue
> (not the furniture type like Elmer's Pro Bond that
> Carl Loar mentioned
> which is excellent glue.) and white pine from his
> local lumber yard.
> He flew that plane for about 10 years before
> stall-spinning it in. He was
> fine. The plane was a mess, but gave good service
> using materials
> that most of us wouldn't. Anything better than
> what he used should give
> all of us peace of mind.
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/20/01 |
Dear friends,
I am building the steel tube fuselage Pietenpol Aircamper and plan to use
the Continental engine.
Does anyone have information that they could share with me that would allow
me to calculate the C.G. so that I can know how much I may need to lengthen
the steel tube fuselage? Also, any thoughts on the idea of adding X more
inches of tubing between station 1&2, 14&13 of the supplemental steel tube
drawings, in order to arrive at a proper C.G ( I am thinking 4 to 6 but I
would like to do the math first )
On the top of a drawing dated 3-8-65 D.P. there are a few C.G. calculations
for a 1960 corvair engine Aircamper. It showed a calculated C.G. of 16.85
and said that the C.G should not be in excess of 20' aft of DATUM. What is
the "optimum" C.G. measurement for such a craft?
I fear that if I build according to plans and use the Continental engine, I
may end up having to cast my own Lead spinner in order to balance out.
Any thoughts?..........
Allen Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/20/01 |
allen smith asked:
> Also, any thoughts on the idea of adding X more
> inches of tubing between station 1&2, 14&13 of the supplemental steel tube
> drawings, in order to arrive at a proper C.G ( I am thinking 4 to 6 but
I
> would like to do the math first )
No doubt you know this already, but just in case:
The usual technique is just to move the wing back -- shift the datum line,
rather than the cg. One local builder who used a C-85 found it necessary
to move the wing about 4 inches, if my memory is working for once. This
meant making up a new set of cabanes and front bracing, as the originals
did not have enough adjustment capacity. Worked out well, though.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/20/01 |
-----Original Message-----
From: allen smith <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, January 22, 2001 12:31 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/20/01
>
>
>Dear friends,
>
>I am building the steel tube fuselage Pietenpol Aircamper and plan to use
>the Continental engine.
>
>Does anyone have information that they could share with me that would allow
>me to calculate the C.G. so that I can know how much I may need to lengthen
>the steel tube fuselage? Also, any thoughts on the idea of adding X more
>inches of tubing between station 1&2, 14&13 of the supplemental steel tube
>drawings, in order to arrive at a proper C.G ( I am thinking 4 to 6 but I
>would like to do the math first )
>
Your problem ,as I see it, is that there is little steel tube experience out
there.
For one thing, the steel tube fuselage is lighter that the wood fuselage,so
you may have less of a CG problem.
If the steet tube plans were for a Ford engine & you plan on a 65 cont you
are looking at about 80 lbs less engine weight.
As suggested, I would plan on moving the wing back, rather than the engine
out. Once the engine is fixed, you can't change it, but the wing, you can
adjust.
Mike B Piet N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) 0-200 Cont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | CG/ 65 Continentals |
Allen- Mike B. is right.....most of us don't have much experience with
the CG's of the steel tube vs. the wood, but my gut feeling is that wing
and engine placement will be your big factors, not necessarily what you
build with. First you need to ask- how heavy am I ?? If you are 160-170
pounder the wing might have to go back 3"......if you are 200 or over plan
on at least FOUR inches of wing-set back or aft of vertical. Mitch Burns and
I think Steve E. used six inches with Cont. engines and no complaints from
them. Am I right on this Steve ? When I built my Cont. motor mount I used
the plans from Donald Pietenpol but made it one inch longer. To do it over
again (I'm at 194 pounds) I'd make the motor mount 2 inches longer and stay
with the 4" aft of vertical like I've got. The only thing about moving
the wing
back so far is that is makes getting in and out a bit more difficult.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Merrill <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
Mike & others,
I'm just starting to building all wood with Corvair engine. I weigh 140 lbs and
the wife is 100 lbs. Not quit munchkins though. I would like to end up with
almost vertical cabanes maybe even slightly forward. Any suggestion of lengthening
or shortening the engine mount to accomplish this, or am I dreaming. New
to all this and looking for answers. Maybe other corvair flyers have the answer.
Merrill
Mt. Dora Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Merrill- Good question. Unless there is someone on the group who has
built and is flying a Corvair Piet, the next best thing is to order/mail for
the Piet directory made available by Doc Mosher. His new list is coming
out either later this month or in Feb. He lists Piets by state and I recall
they show engine type too. Ford, Cont., Corvair, etc. Maybe. This would
be a good source for finding and talking to Corvair flyers.
ALSO......in your plans from Donald Pietenpol there is a big sheet with
Pietenpol's last design which had a Corvair and shows a sample of how he
did his weight and balance for that plane.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | CG/ 65 Continentals |
Not quite 6 inches. I am at 4.75". My flying weight is 225#. I have a
custom lenght fuse (about 6in longer than the short fuse) and an extended
motor mount of about 12" from firwall to back of engine. I also added 20#
of lead ahead of the firewall to make sure I always stayed ahead of the rear
CG. I balance as is at about 18" from LE. Empty weight is 626#. I could
shave a few pounds from the tailwheel, but I'm not going to remove my
cheater lead until I loose some girth --My own motivation.
steve (doesn't look it) E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: CG/ 65 Continentals
Allen- Mike B. is right.....most of us don't have much experience with
the CG's of the steel tube vs. the wood, but my gut feeling is that wing
and engine placement will be your big factors, not necessarily what you
build with. First you need to ask- how heavy am I ?? If you are 160-170
pounder the wing might have to go back 3"......if you are 200 or over plan
on at least FOUR inches of wing-set back or aft of vertical. Mitch Burns
and
I think Steve E. used six inches with Cont. engines and no complaints from
them. Am I right on this Steve ? When I built my Cont. motor mount I used
the plans from Donald Pietenpol but made it one inch longer. To do it over
again (I'm at 194 pounds) I'd make the motor mount 2 inches longer and stay
with the 4" aft of vertical like I've got. The only thing about moving
the wing
back so far is that is makes getting in and out a bit more difficult.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | CG/ 65 Continentals |
Subtract 20# of lead, and you have a 606# Doug Fir Piet, attaboy Steve!
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
>
>Mike & others,
>
> I'm just starting to building all wood with Corvair engine. I weigh 140
lbs and the wife is 100 lbs. Not quit munchkins though. I would like to end
up with almost vertical cabanes maybe even slightly forward. Any suggestion
of lengthening or shortening the engine mount to accomplish this, or am I
dreaming. New to all this and looking for answers. Maybe other corvair
flyers have the answer.
>
>Merrill
>Mt. Dora Fl
>
The long fuelage prints were drawn up for the corvair engine.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
PS
WIth the 0200, I moved the CG of the 0200 11 inches fwd of the "A" CG & the
wing back 31/2 inches. My CG is at 15.5 inches.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
| Subject: | CG/ 65 Continentals |
That part is easy.
Its subtracting 20-30# of lead from my butt that is more difficult :)
Steve (I like too much chocolate) E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Meadows
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG/ 65 Continentals
Subtract 20# of lead, and you have a 606# Doug Fir Piet, attaboy Steve!
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
does anyone have any sugestions on routing of the
elevator and rudder cables? my father is building per
the plans on almost every thing and his rudder and
upper elevator cables rub on one another. his rudder
horn is mounted above the horiz. stab. would it be
better to mount the horn on the lower part of the
rudder?
sincerly
Shad Bell
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
Great question. Hope you get lots of action (replies) on this one.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Duprey <J-M-Duprey(at)erols.com> |
Hi Guys: Does anyone have contact info for Doc. Mosher? I would like to
get a copy of the list.
Thanks
John Duprey
P.S. I just found out I will be able to attend Brodhead for the first
time this year! Looking forward to putting faces to all the names on the
list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Holland" <iholland(at)telusplanet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
Shad, I believe there was an article in one of the back issues of BPN
that recommended dropping the rudder cables down, ie repositioning the
horn. Looking at mine in the garage, I think I would have the same
problem had I not dropped the horn. Sorry to be a little vague about
this, but it has been almost 4 years since I passed that point. Still
working on it!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ED GRENTZER" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
Ok I'm in on this one. I haven't done my cables yet but I laid it all out
with string and my rudder and upper elevator cables will just touch at the
point where they exit the fabric. the plans show both cables exiting the
fabric through one opening. Is it acceptable for the cables to touch and
vibrate against each other?????? Stainless cable is pretty chafe resistant
but maybe it's a no no for them to touch.I thought if need be I could put a
small nylon or derilin fairlead at the opening just inside the fabric.I
thought it was because I raised my bellcrank slightly but I'm glad to see
the question come up. Any suggestions?????
Ed Grentzer
Palm Harbor Fl.
>From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: Pietenpol Discussion
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cables
>Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:46:29 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>does anyone have any sugestions on routing of the
>elevator and rudder cables? my father is building per
>the plans on almost every thing and his rudder and
>upper elevator cables rub on one another. his rudder
>horn is mounted above the horiz. stab. would it be
>better to mount the horn on the lower part of the
>rudder?
>sincerly
>Shad Bell
>
>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Copeland <copeland(at)sdcoe.k12.ca.us> |
Interesting information! I think that is a good test, and I'd be interested to
see what happens after more time.
I believe Katanas are autoclaved with totally different epoxies, and many
manufacturers use vinylesters for temperature sensative parts.
The 120 degree figure is, if my memory serves correctly, either WEST
(Geogeon) or System 3 data. I don't know how the strength is quantified -
tensile, elasticity, etc. (And this is the real measurement issue.) It is of
course why room temp. cured epoxy homebuilts (Varieze, Q-2, etc) are white or a
very light color. By the way, yellow is the second coolest (solid) color
according to an experiment I came across in Sport Aviation. Those red Lancairs
are not room temp. epoxies! Many closed cell foams deform at surface temps of
140 degrees, and thinking about it, I'd bet that's the actual limitation with
the Katanas! Being a sailplane pilot, I'd love to fly a Katana sometime!
Thanks, Scot
Mike wrote:
>
> Scot,
> I read your post with great interest. I have been conducting an on-going
> informal experiment that indicates your information regarding moisture
> cycling and possibly UV may not be correct in reference to T-88 anyway. I
> have had a "cut off " section of my first Hatz wingtip bow which
> is 8 pieces of 1/8 by 3/4 spruce laminated in a curved shape, sitting on an
> exterior (weather facing) window sill for just over a rear now. This is a
> window under a 1 foot eve on a west
> facing wall here in Texas so it has received extremes of UV, heat and cold,
> and a fair amount of
> moisture cycling. There is no protective coating on this part at all. At
> this point the part looks
> nearly as good as the day I put it there, with slight greying/aging of the
> wood as the only change. The glue joints show no deterioration and have held
> fine through occasional "strike it on the wall" tests. Admittedly
> un-scientific but my results are similar to Tony Bengelis' "parts on his
> gatepost" tests he talks of in his books.
> I would also like to hear more about how you determined that epoxies lose
> 40% strength at 120 degrees. I believe standard thinking is that T-88
> "Starts" to lose strength at 150 degrees. I have
> a Chem tech lab report that gives these results I believe, although I don't
> have it here at work to refer to. 40% at 120 degrees would not be adequate
> for my peace of mind, for Texas summers anyway. I occasionally fly the
> Diamond Katana all composite airplane. Part of the preflight of that
> aircraft is the inspection of an internal hull
> temperature sensor and the temp limit is 135 degrees. Knowing the FAA, this
> is conservative.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scot Copeland <copeland(at)sdcoe.k12.ca.us>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>
>
> >
> > Well, I had to get in on this one. As a former wooden boat builder turned
> > teacher and pilot, I feel I do have some things to add. Building
> composite
> > trimarans I spent a lot of time with epoxies, and later learned about
> > resorcinol with traditional construction. Here are my thoughts, based on
> > experience.
> > Polyurethanes are the latest - greatest, but like epoxies, represent
> major
> > health risks. I won't ever use them simply because of exposure.
> > Epoxies are also dangerous to be around. They are wonderful because
> of
> > their versatility. To give you some more substantial numbers, typical
> epoxies
> > of the variety you are talking about here (WEST, System Three, etc.) loose
> > roughly 40% of their strength at 120 degrees. No big deal for ribs, yes.
> > Another concern is epoxies don't tolerate moisture cycling very well, and
> > that's why epoxy boats must be completely encapsulated. Finally, UV light
> acts
> > much faster than you would ever guess on unprotected epoxy. Laminate an
> epoxy
> > panel, leave it uncoated out in the sun and moisture and it's shot well
> within
> > a year. Something to think about with those ribs sitting around the shop
> year
> > after year.
> > Oh, by the way, you can't tolerate the weight of a fully encapsulated
> > wood/epoxy aircraft structure if you have any value for your empty weight.
> > Resorcinol does require more careful joints and (some argue)
> temperatures,
> > but nothing outside the usual practices building an aircraft! Toxicity
> has a
> > longer term history for us to evaluate. For some woods, like oak, it is
> simply
> > far superior to epoxy. We laminated an oak stem for a schooner with epoxy
> and
> > it popped, or "showed", its joints within a year. (No major concern when
> > you've got 1/2 inch through bolts.) Most people who use oak know this.
> > Moisture cycling is not as big of a problem as with epoxies - and don't
> just
> > think this applies to boats here. A skinned structure like a fuselage or
> wing
> > will really expand and contract. Here's one major problem: I think you'll
> be
> > hard pressed to find any resorcinol within a year. I've been told it's
> retail
> > distribution is going to be halted. I check the usual shelf at Home Depot
> last
> > weekend, and sure enough, it was gone. My two cents, for a wood aircraft
> I
> > would prefer one glued with resorcinol - without a doubt.
> > Urea glues like Weldwood are great as well. You'll find them at Home
> Depot
> > and Aircraft Spruce! Premiere mast builders use it for invisible glue
> joints
> > on spruce. History has shown it works great in this difficult environment
> and
> > service. It's inexpensive, although I don't think that's much of an
> issue.
> > Water clean up is my big reason to use it. Old timers will tell you it
> works
> > because wood and water always work together, meaning: the water carries
> the
> > adhesive back into the wood structure.
> > Now,... I'm really impressed with Franklin's Titebond II carpentry
> glue.
> > You can get it everywhere. See what you think.
> > To put this discussion into perspective, you simply need to meet the
> wood's
> > strength (which any of these glues will do many times over)...but (I
> think) for
> > at least 40 years!
> > Scot
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Powning <leopowning(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
Ed,
Chafeing cables are not permitted. Very litle lateral
pressure wil be required to separate them and a
fairlead is acceptable.
Leo
--- ED GRENTZER wrote:
>
>
>
> Ok I'm in on this one. I haven't done my cables
> yet but I laid it all out
> with string and my rudder and upper elevator cables
> will just touch at the
> point where they exit the fabric. the plans show
> both cables exiting the
> fabric through one opening. Is it acceptable for the
> cables to touch and
> vibrate against each other?????? Stainless cable is
> pretty chafe resistant
> but maybe it's a no no for them to touch.I thought
> if need be I could put a
> small nylon or derilin fairlead at the opening just
> inside the fabric.I
> thought it was because I raised my bellcrank
> slightly but I'm glad to see
> the question come up. Any suggestions?????
>
> Ed
> Grentzer
> Palm
> Harbor Fl.
>
> >From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To: Pietenpol Discussion
>
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cables
> >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:46:29 -0800 (PST)
> >
>
> >
> >does anyone have any sugestions on routing of the
> >elevator and rudder cables? my father is building
> per
> >the plans on almost every thing and his rudder and
> >upper elevator cables rub on one another. his
> rudder
> >horn is mounted above the horiz. stab. would it be
> >better to mount the horn on the lower part of the
> >rudder?
> >sincerly
> >Shad Bell
> >
> >Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great
> prices.
> >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
I have seen a lot of Piets using a leather patch ( or other similar) to
prevent chafe.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ED GRENTZER" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cables
>
>
> Ok I'm in on this one. I haven't done my cables yet but I laid it all
out
> with string and my rudder and upper elevator cables will just touch at the
> point where they exit the fabric. the plans show both cables exiting the
> fabric through one opening. Is it acceptable for the cables to touch and
> vibrate against each other?????? Stainless cable is pretty chafe resistant
> but maybe it's a no no for them to touch.I thought if need be I could put
a
> small nylon or derilin fairlead at the opening just inside the fabric.I
> thought it was because I raised my bellcrank slightly but I'm glad to see
> the question come up. Any suggestions?????
>
> Ed Grentzer
> Palm Harbor Fl.
>
> >From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To: Pietenpol Discussion
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cables
> >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:46:29 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >
> >does anyone have any sugestions on routing of the
> >elevator and rudder cables? my father is building per
> >the plans on almost every thing and his rudder and
> >upper elevator cables rub on one another. his rudder
> >horn is mounted above the horiz. stab. would it be
> >better to mount the horn on the lower part of the
> >rudder?
> >sincerly
> >Shad Bell
> >
> >Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
> >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used house
paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm getting to
that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all the
different finish coats isnt very appealing.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Merrill" <lagom(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
A few have responded, but know one has answered the question about lowering
the rudder horn under the horizontal stabilizer to relieve the cable
chaffing. has any one done this and to what results?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber...
You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to Poly Fiber.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
>
> A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used house
> paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm getting to
> that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all the
> different finish coats isnt very appealing.
> Dick N.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Tracy <catdesigns(at)juno.com> |
I saw this on the web. The add is a little old but if your interested it
might be worth contacting the seller.
Chris
Sacramento, CA
(updated 12/27/00)
For sale (items from estate of Bill Dasse):
Complete steel tube fuselage, cabanes & braces, all tail feathers,
controls, rudder pedals, bell crank for elevators, tail wheel & spring,
center section for three piece wing, turtle deck, blank instrument
panels, on the gear with special made hubs & wheels. The welding is
excellent. (the wheels alone cost over $800.00) All for $2500.00
Model " A" engine. Built by Kyle Holman, (the fellow that built the one
for Jack McKinney.) Bored .060 over, with full pressure to rods, mains
and cam bearings, new pistons, rings, valves, guides and adjustable
tappets, new cam gear & modified grind on the cam , crankshaft was
reground, all new babbitt and align bored. The oil pump is modified with
adjustable pressure relief valve. Short block with pan & front cover.
$2,000.00
Two Aluminum heads. These heads are brand new, 6.1 to 1 compression
(final ratio depends on many things, deck height, gaskets, thickness, CC
the heads etc.) $325.00 each
1 set of wing ribs, made by Chas. Rubeck $200.00
Four new sitka spares from A/C/S $475.00
Four new streamlined lift struts (blanks)
Two 2.023 by .857 by .049
Two 2.360 by 1.00 by .049
$458.00
Aluminum side cover plate, finned $65.00
All of these prices are at or below Bill's cost
NO "BLUE SKY" HERE!
This project is in Costa Mesa, Ca.
For more info, contact Jack McKinney jacdot2(at)cybertrails.com
Judy Dasse wdasse(at)aol.com
Larry McKinney Lgmcspeed(at)earthlink.net
Ken Brock, fax 1-714-894-0811
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I have Doc's address docshop(at)famvid.com
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Duprey" <J-M-Duprey(at)erols.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doc Mosher
>
> Hi Guys: Does anyone have contact info for Doc. Mosher? I would like to
> get a copy of the list.
>
> Thanks
> John Duprey
> P.S. I just found out I will be able to attend Brodhead for the first
> time this year! Looking forward to putting faces to all the names on the
> list.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
>- posted by: "ED GRENTZER"
> Ok I'm in on this one. I haven't done my cables yet but I laid it all out
>with string and my rudder and upper elevator cables will just touch at the
>point where they exit the fabric.
Ed, group....unfortunately this is correct. I've seen two other planes
where they
lowered the rudder horn and then no such problem. In under 200 hours of
flying
time I have had to replace BOTH upper elevator cables once because of this
chaffing/rubbing deal. When installing the second set I slipped
shrink-wrap tubing
over the new elevator cable (about 6" long) and heat shrunk it in place.
So far this has eliminated the problem. The fraying was caught early on and
was quite minimal, but concerned me enough that I replaced them soon after.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Donegan <dand(at)burton.com> |
Were just finishing up our rib jigs in preparation for building two Air
Campers. The jigs will be cut on a CNC router out of a UHMW material. We
are located just outside of Burlington VT and are interested in
communicating with any other builders in the area. We are both six-foot two
inches tall and would love to try on someone's cockpit.
Dan Donegan
802-482-5260 Nights
802-652-3601Days
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
That was me. (Steve E) Still happy with the house paint. I keep my plane
hangered too. As I have said before, it isn't an award winner for finish,
but it does look period and stands up to the elements fine. It is also very
light.
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
Navratil
Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used house
paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm getting to
that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all the
different finish coats isnt very appealing.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
What type did you use, oil base or latex?
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mikec(at)microlandusa.com> |
Ok Scot, good to hear back from you on the subject. I meant to review my
info, that is the Chem Tech report, but have not gotten around to it as
yet. As for Katanas I agree that the 135 degree limit may be more related to
the foam than the
bonding materials used, and who knows what they use to laminate it together.
Tell you what, I'd kinda like to know and I'll bet they would be happy to
talk about it so I will try to give them a call today. Katana is a pretty
good machine, with 100 hp the
acceleration on takeoff is the first thing you notice (if your a 172 driver
anyway!). I'm planning on adding a sailplane rating
myself this spring.
----- Original Message -----
From: Scot Copeland <copeland(at)sdcoe.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
>
> Interesting information! I think that is a good test, and I'd be
interested to
> see what happens after more time.
> I believe Katanas are autoclaved with totally different epoxies, and many
> manufacturers use vinylesters for temperature sensative parts.
> The 120 degree figure is, if my memory serves correctly, either WEST
> (Geogeon) or System 3 data. I don't know how the strength is quantified -
> tensile, elasticity, etc. (And this is the real measurement issue.) It
is of
> course why room temp. cured epoxy homebuilts (Varieze, Q-2, etc) are white
or a
> very light color. By the way, yellow is the second coolest (solid) color
> according to an experiment I came across in Sport Aviation. Those red
Lancairs
> are not room temp. epoxies! Many closed cell foams deform at surface
temps of
> 140 degrees, and thinking about it, I'd bet that's the actual limitation
with
> the Katanas! Being a sailplane pilot, I'd love to fly a Katana sometime!
> Thanks, Scot
>
>
> Mike wrote:
>
> >
> > Scot,
> > I read your post with great interest. I have been conducting an on-going
> > informal experiment that indicates your information regarding moisture
> > cycling and possibly UV may not be correct in reference to T-88 anyway.
I
> > have had a "cut off " section of my first Hatz wingtip bow which
> > is 8 pieces of 1/8 by 3/4 spruce laminated in a curved shape, sitting on
an
> > exterior (weather facing) window sill for just over a rear now. This is
a
> > window under a 1 foot eve on a west
> > facing wall here in Texas so it has received extremes of UV, heat and
cold,
> > and a fair amount of
> > moisture cycling. There is no protective coating on this part at all.
At
> > this point the part looks
> > nearly as good as the day I put it there, with slight greying/aging of
the
> > wood as the only change. The glue joints show no deterioration and have
held
> > fine through occasional "strike it on the wall" tests. Admittedly
> > un-scientific but my results are similar to Tony Bengelis' "parts on his
> > gatepost" tests he talks of in his books.
> > I would also like to hear more about how you determined that epoxies
lose
> > 40% strength at 120 degrees. I believe standard thinking is that T-88
> > "Starts" to lose strength at 150 degrees. I have
> > a Chem tech lab report that gives these results I believe, although I
don't
> > have it here at work to refer to. 40% at 120 degrees would not be
adequate
> > for my peace of mind, for Texas summers anyway. I occasionally fly the
> > Diamond Katana all composite airplane. Part of the preflight of that
> > aircraft is the inspection of an internal hull
> > temperature sensor and the temp limit is 135 degrees. Knowing the FAA,
this
> > is conservative.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Scot Copeland <copeland(at)sdcoe.k12.ca.us>
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Well, I had to get in on this one. As a former wooden boat builder
turned
> > > teacher and pilot, I feel I do have some things to add. Building
> > composite
> > > trimarans I spent a lot of time with epoxies, and later learned about
> > > resorcinol with traditional construction. Here are my thoughts, based
on
> > > experience.
> > > Polyurethanes are the latest - greatest, but like epoxies,
represent
> > major
> > > health risks. I won't ever use them simply because of exposure.
> > > Epoxies are also dangerous to be around. They are wonderful
because
> > of
> > > their versatility. To give you some more substantial numbers, typical
> > epoxies
> > > of the variety you are talking about here (WEST, System Three, etc.)
loose
> > > roughly 40% of their strength at 120 degrees. No big deal for ribs,
yes.
> > > Another concern is epoxies don't tolerate moisture cycling very well,
and
> > > that's why epoxy boats must be completely encapsulated. Finally, UV
light
> > acts
> > > much faster than you would ever guess on unprotected epoxy. Laminate
an
> > epoxy
> > > panel, leave it uncoated out in the sun and moisture and it's shot
well
> > within
> > > a year. Something to think about with those ribs sitting around the
shop
> > year
> > > after year.
> > > Oh, by the way, you can't tolerate the weight of a fully
encapsulated
> > > wood/epoxy aircraft structure if you have any value for your empty
weight.
> > > Resorcinol does require more careful joints and (some argue)
> > temperatures,
> > > but nothing outside the usual practices building an aircraft!
Toxicity
> > has a
> > > longer term history for us to evaluate. For some woods, like oak, it
is
> > simply
> > > far superior to epoxy. We laminated an oak stem for a schooner with
epoxy
> > and
> > > it popped, or "showed", its joints within a year. (No major concern
when
> > > you've got 1/2 inch through bolts.) Most people who use oak know
this.
> > > Moisture cycling is not as big of a problem as with epoxies - and
don't
> > just
> > > think this applies to boats here. A skinned structure like a fuselage
or
> > wing
> > > will really expand and contract. Here's one major problem: I think
you'll
> > be
> > > hard pressed to find any resorcinol within a year. I've been told
it's
> > retail
> > > distribution is going to be halted. I check the usual shelf at Home
Depot
> > last
> > > weekend, and sure enough, it was gone. My two cents, for a wood
aircraft
> > I
> > > would prefer one glued with resorcinol - without a doubt.
> > > Urea glues like Weldwood are great as well. You'll find them at
Home
> > Depot
> > > and Aircraft Spruce! Premiere mast builders use it for invisible glue
> > joints
> > > on spruce. History has shown it works great in this difficult
environment
> > and
> > > service. It's inexpensive, although I don't think that's much of an
> > issue.
> > > Water clean up is my big reason to use it. Old timers will tell you
it
> > works
> > > because wood and water always work together, meaning: the water
carries
> > the
> > > adhesive back into the wood structure.
> > > Now,... I'm really impressed with Franklin's Titebond II carpentry
> > glue.
> > > You can get it everywhere. See what you think.
> > > To put this discussion into perspective, you simply need to meet
the
> > wood's
> > > strength (which any of these glues will do many times over)...but (I
> > think) for
> > > at least 40 years!
> > > Scot
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Latex, Sherwin Williams. High Gloss Outdoor
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
What type did you use, oil base or latex?
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: control cables |
There was a fellow at brodhead last year that was
selling plans for a new improved bellcrank and
elevator horn. it eliminated the problem of slack
cables. I'm not sure if it did anything for the
rubbing problem, I think that it did. his name is
Perkins. but I don't have any other info.
> >- posted by: "ED GRENTZER"
> > Ok I'm in on this one. I haven't done my cables
> yet but I laid it all out
> >with string and my rudder and upper elevator cables
> will just touch at the
> >point where they exit the fabric.
>
> Ed, group....unfortunately this is correct. I've
> seen two other planes
> where they
> lowered the rudder horn and then no such problem.
> In under 200 hours of
> flying
> time I have had to replace BOTH upper elevator
> cables once because of this
> chaffing/rubbing deal. When installing the second
> set I slipped
> shrink-wrap tubing
> over the new elevator cable (about 6" long) and
> heat shrunk it in place.
> So far this has eliminated the problem. The
> fraying was caught early on and
> was quite minimal, but concerned me enough that I
> replaced them soon after.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
AFS, AFS, AFS...
You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS
Bad boints to PolyFiber:
- PolyFiber has yet to make thier water-borne polyeurathanes publically
available.
- PolyFiber topcoats produce toxic fumes needing respirators and
ventilation.
- I could be wrong on this point, but I believe that the overspray from
the topcoats are also explosive (solvents are flamable).
Otherwise, PolyFiber is a well proven system. I chose to use AFS for it's
enviromentally and human friendly qualities. I have to cover and paint the
plane in the basement where it's warm enough for the paint to work
properly making AFS the ONLY covering system that fit my requirements.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
Barrows Bearhawk #468
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
>
> Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber...
> You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to Poly Fiber.
> walt
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
>
>
>
> >
> > A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used house
> > paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm getting to
> > that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all the
> > different finish coats isnt very appealing.
> > Dick N.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Ken,
What is AFS? And what would be the cost for a Piet? Yeah, your right
when it comes to fumes. But my point is that alot of people are using auto
paint as an option, and thats in the same ballpark. Think of it as a cheap
high. (kidding).
But I'll bet that even the water based paint is toxic in an airborn
situation. And there's a good chance that in a mist form, it's
flammable/explosive.
walt
-----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Beanlands" <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
>
> AFS, AFS, AFS...
> You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS
>
> Bad boints to PolyFiber:
> - PolyFiber has yet to make thier water-borne polyeurathanes publically
> available.
> - PolyFiber topcoats produce toxic fumes needing respirators and
> ventilation.
> - I could be wrong on this point, but I believe that the overspray from
> the topcoats are also explosive (solvents are flamable).
>
> Otherwise, PolyFiber is a well proven system. I chose to use AFS for it's
> enviromentally and human friendly qualities. I have to cover and paint the
> plane in the basement where it's warm enough for the paint to work
> properly making AFS the ONLY covering system that fit my requirements.
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
> Barrows Bearhawk #468
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
>
> >
> > Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber...
> > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to Poly Fiber.
> > walt
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 PM
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used
house
> > > paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm getting
to
> > > that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all the
> > > different finish coats isnt very appealing.
> > > Dick N.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
AFS is Aircraft Finishing Systems. Thier web site is:
<http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/> . Waterborne paints are non-flamable
and non-toxic (although a particle mask is a must when painting).
AFS uses water as a carrier for the solids in the coatings. Up to now, the
only carriers for the resins and other solids in aircraft paints have been
the old-time, high VOC (volatile organic compounds) solvents, with their
offensive odors and the health hazards that EPA and OSHA are cracking down
on, with increasing pressure.
Water is added only as a carrier, to reduce the viscosity of the solids to
allow the coatings to be sprayed. When dry, it is impossible to
distinguish between AFS coatings and the other two or three top
solvent-based paints. These coatings are not "water-based"-- they're
waterborne.
Once it starts to set, believe me, there is no way to clean the stuff with
water. If you let it go that long, you are back to traditional solvents
for clean-up. BTW, most of the other paint companies are under the same
pressure from the EPA to clean up thier paints and switch to non high VOC
based paints. Poly Fiber is reportedly "beta-testing" thier water-borne
epoxies and most of the big companies (Dupint, Silkens, etc.) have or are
working on similar products.
BTW, I'm no chemist, I'm just re-hasing what's in the web site ;-). I also
have no interest in AFS other than being a satisfied customer.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
Barrows Bearhawk #468
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
>
> Ken,
> What is AFS? And what would be the cost for a Piet? Yeah, your right
> when it comes to fumes. But my point is that alot of people are using auto
> paint as an option, and thats in the same ballpark. Think of it as a cheap
> high. (kidding).
> But I'll bet that even the water based paint is toxic in an airborn
> situation. And there's a good chance that in a mist form, it's
> flammable/explosive.
> walt
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Beanlands" <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
>
>
> >
> > AFS, AFS, AFS...
> > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS
> >
> > Bad boints to PolyFiber:
> > - PolyFiber has yet to make thier water-borne polyeurathanes publically
> > available.
> > - PolyFiber topcoats produce toxic fumes needing respirators and
> > ventilation.
> > - I could be wrong on this point, but I believe that the overspray from
> > the topcoats are also explosive (solvents are flamable).
> >
> > Otherwise, PolyFiber is a well proven system. I chose to use AFS for it's
> > enviromentally and human friendly qualities. I have to cover and paint the
> > plane in the basement where it's warm enough for the paint to work
> > properly making AFS the ONLY covering system that fit my requirements.
> >
> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> > Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
> > Barrows Bearhawk #468
> > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > > Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber...
> > > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to Poly Fiber.
> > > walt
> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 PM
> > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used
> house
> > > > paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm getting
> to
> > > > that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all the
> > > > different finish coats isnt very appealing.
> > > > Dick N.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Geez Ken,,, maybe I'm getting cheap and penny pinchin in my young years but
isn't that stuff a little pricey?
Looks like it is really good but I think a big savings would be to dawn the
respirator and paint outside with the
Old dope method. I'm curious as to how the weave is filled in after
shrinking when using outdoor house paint.
And what about the UV silver? Where does that come in at? Just curious,,,,
Carl
Please visit my website at
www.megsinet.net/skycarl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Beanlands
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
AFS is Aircraft Finishing Systems. Thier web site is:
<http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/> . Waterborne paints are non-flamable
and non-toxic (although a particle mask is a must when painting).
AFS uses water as a carrier for the solids in the coatings. Up to now, the
only carriers for the resins and other solids in aircraft paints have been
the old-time, high VOC (volatile organic compounds) solvents, with their
offensive odors and the health hazards that EPA and OSHA are cracking down
on, with increasing pressure.
Water is added only as a carrier, to reduce the viscosity of the solids to
allow the coatings to be sprayed. When dry, it is impossible to
distinguish between AFS coatings and the other two or three top
solvent-based paints. These coatings are not "water-based"-- they're
waterborne.
Once it starts to set, believe me, there is no way to clean the stuff with
water. If you let it go that long, you are back to traditional solvents
for clean-up. BTW, most of the other paint companies are under the same
pressure from the EPA to clean up thier paints and switch to non high VOC
based paints. Poly Fiber is reportedly "beta-testing" thier water-borne
epoxies and most of the big companies (Dupint, Silkens, etc.) have or are
working on similar products.
BTW, I'm no chemist, I'm just re-hasing what's in the web site ;-). I also
have no interest in AFS other than being a satisfied customer.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
Barrows Bearhawk #468
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
>
> Ken,
> What is AFS? And what would be the cost for a Piet? Yeah, your right
> when it comes to fumes. But my point is that alot of people are using
auto
> paint as an option, and thats in the same ballpark. Think of it as a
cheap
> high. (kidding).
> But I'll bet that even the water based paint is toxic in an airborn
> situation. And there's a good chance that in a mist form, it's
> flammable/explosive.
> walt
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Beanlands" <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
>
>
> >
> > AFS, AFS, AFS...
> > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS
> >
> > Bad boints to PolyFiber:
> > - PolyFiber has yet to make thier water-borne polyeurathanes publically
> > available.
> > - PolyFiber topcoats produce toxic fumes needing respirators and
> > ventilation.
> > - I could be wrong on this point, but I believe that the overspray from
> > the topcoats are also explosive (solvents are flamable).
> >
> > Otherwise, PolyFiber is a well proven system. I chose to use AFS for
it's
> > enviromentally and human friendly qualities. I have to cover and paint
the
> > plane in the basement where it's warm enough for the paint to work
> > properly making AFS the ONLY covering system that fit my requirements.
> >
> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> > Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
> > Barrows Bearhawk #468
> > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > > Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber...
> > > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to Poly Fiber.
> > > walt
> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 PM
> > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used
> house
> > > > paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm
getting
> to
> > > > that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all
the
> > > > different finish coats isnt very appealing.
> > > > Dick N.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> |
I had quotes the Randolf (old Dope method), PolyFiber (Both traditional
Stits and old Dope methods), AFS, SuperFlight and Hipec systems and from
different sources as well. There was not a significant difference in price
among the lot as they all came out to about $2000 USD for everything
(paint gun, partical mask, irons, needles, drain grommets, inspection
rings, rib cord, inter-rib lacing, anti-chafe tape, reinforcement tape,
surface tapes, fabric, CecoBond, CecoFil, metal primer, metal etching, top
coat, etc). Let's face it, covering a plane with an approved system is not
cheap no matter how you do it. The top coats may appear expensive at
first, but it only takes 2-3 gallons of color to do the entire plane. If
you stick to the whites, greys and browns, the color coats are a lot less
expensive.
In the end it was the non-toxic nature of the AFS system that made the
difference. I did look at the house paint method, but it just didn't meet
my comfort level. If you do go that method, check out the use of CecoBond
and CecoFil to attach the fabric and as a filler/UV protector before the
topcoats. You should only need about 2 gallons of each (less if you use a
brush). Any of the systems will drop in price if you use an HVLP paint
system or if you paint with a brush. I used the HVLP method and I'm quite
happy with the outcome.
Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
Barrows Bearhawk #468
<http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Carl Loar wrote:
>
> Geez Ken,,, maybe I'm getting cheap and penny pinchin in my young years but
> isn't that stuff a little pricey?
> Looks like it is really good but I think a big savings would be to dawn the
> respirator and paint outside with the
> Old dope method. I'm curious as to how the weave is filled in after
> shrinking when using outdoor house paint.
> And what about the UV silver? Where does that come in at? Just curious,,,,
> Carl
>
> Please visit my website at
> www.megsinet.net/skycarl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Beanlands
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 3:24 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
>
>
> AFS is Aircraft Finishing Systems. Thier web site is:
> <http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/> . Waterborne paints are non-flamable
> and non-toxic (although a particle mask is a must when painting).
>
> AFS uses water as a carrier for the solids in the coatings. Up to now, the
> only carriers for the resins and other solids in aircraft paints have been
> the old-time, high VOC (volatile organic compounds) solvents, with their
> offensive odors and the health hazards that EPA and OSHA are cracking down
> on, with increasing pressure.
>
> Water is added only as a carrier, to reduce the viscosity of the solids to
> allow the coatings to be sprayed. When dry, it is impossible to
> distinguish between AFS coatings and the other two or three top
> solvent-based paints. These coatings are not "water-based"-- they're
> waterborne.
>
> Once it starts to set, believe me, there is no way to clean the stuff with
> water. If you let it go that long, you are back to traditional solvents
> for clean-up. BTW, most of the other paint companies are under the same
> pressure from the EPA to clean up thier paints and switch to non high VOC
> based paints. Poly Fiber is reportedly "beta-testing" thier water-borne
> epoxies and most of the big companies (Dupint, Silkens, etc.) have or are
> working on similar products.
>
> BTW, I'm no chemist, I'm just re-hasing what's in the web site ;-). I also
> have no interest in AFS other than being a satisfied customer.
>
> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
> Barrows Bearhawk #468
> <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Ken,
> > What is AFS? And what would be the cost for a Piet? Yeah, your right
> > when it comes to fumes. But my point is that alot of people are using
> auto
> > paint as an option, and thats in the same ballpark. Think of it as a
> cheap
> > high. (kidding).
> > But I'll bet that even the water based paint is toxic in an airborn
> > situation. And there's a good chance that in a mist form, it's
> > flammable/explosive.
> > walt
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Beanlands" <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint
> >
> >
>
> > >
> > > AFS, AFS, AFS...
> > > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS
> > >
> > > Bad boints to PolyFiber:
> > > - PolyFiber has yet to make thier water-borne polyeurathanes publically
> > > available.
> > > - PolyFiber topcoats produce toxic fumes needing respirators and
> > > ventilation.
> > > - I could be wrong on this point, but I believe that the overspray from
January 01, 2001 - January 23, 2001
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bu