Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bv

January 23, 2001 - February 24, 2001



      > > > the topcoats are also explosive (solvents are flamable).
      > > >
      > > > Otherwise, PolyFiber is a well proven system. I chose to use AFS for
      > it's
      > > > enviromentally and human friendly qualities. I have to cover and paint
      > the
      > > > plane in the basement where it's warm enough for the paint to work
      > > > properly making AFS the ONLY covering system that fit my requirements.
      > > >
      > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)
      > > > Calgary, Alberta, Canada
      > > > Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN
      > > > Barrows Bearhawk #468
      > > > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote:
      > > >
      > > 
      > > > >
      > > > > Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber...
      > > > > You won't be sorry.  There is no bad points to Poly Fiber.
      > > > > walt
      > > > > -----------------------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      > > > > To: 
      > > > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 PM
      > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > 
      > > > > >
      > > > > > A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used
      > > house
      > > > > > paint on the Piet.  Are you still happy with the results?  I'm
      > getting
      > > to
      > > > > > that point and am considering going that way.  The thought of all
      > the
      > > > > > different finish coats isnt very appealing.
      > > > > > Dick N.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2001
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: paint
> >AFS, AFS, AFS... >You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS > Ken, Is the AFS STC'ed for use on other than homebuilts in the US? My Taylorcraft is going to need covering in a few years. At the rate I am going on the Piet it will need it before I cover a homebuilt :-(. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: paint
Date: Jan 23, 2001
just for reference I ended up with just less than $300 in my paint and coatings. I figure it will give at least 5-10 years if not more. I'll probably want to recover by then anyway... Stevee -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Beanlands Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: paint I had quotes the Randolf (old Dope method), PolyFiber (Both traditional Stits and old Dope methods), AFS, SuperFlight and Hipec systems and from different sources as well. There was not a significant difference in price among the lot as they all came out to about $2000 USD for everything (paint gun, partical mask, irons, needles, drain grommets, inspection rings, rib cord, inter-rib lacing, anti-chafe tape, reinforcement tape, surface tapes, fabric, CecoBond, CecoFil, metal primer, metal etching, top coat, etc). Let's face it, covering a plane with an approved system is not cheap no matter how you do it. The top coats may appear expensive at first, but it only takes 2-3 gallons of color to do the entire plane. If you stick to the whites, greys and browns, the color coats are a lot less expensive. In the end it was the non-toxic nature of the AFS system that made the difference. I did look at the house paint method, but it just didn't meet my comfort level. If you do go that method, check out the use of CecoBond and CecoFil to attach the fabric and as a filler/UV protector before the topcoats. You should only need about 2 gallons of each (less if you use a brush). Any of the systems will drop in price if you use an HVLP paint system or if you paint with a brush. I used the HVLP method and I'm quite happy with the outcome. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN Barrows Bearhawk #468 <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Carl Loar wrote: > > Geez Ken,,, maybe I'm getting cheap and penny pinchin in my young years but > isn't that stuff a little pricey? > Looks like it is really good but I think a big savings would be to dawn the > respirator and paint outside with the > Old dope method. I'm curious as to how the weave is filled in after > shrinking when using outdoor house paint. > And what about the UV silver? Where does that come in at? Just curious,,,, > Carl > > Please visit my website at > www.megsinet.net/skycarl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Beanlands > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 3:24 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint > > > AFS is Aircraft Finishing Systems. Thier web site is: > <http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/> . Waterborne paints are non-flamable > and non-toxic (although a particle mask is a must when painting). > > AFS uses water as a carrier for the solids in the coatings. Up to now, the > only carriers for the resins and other solids in aircraft paints have been > the old-time, high VOC (volatile organic compounds) solvents, with their > offensive odors and the health hazards that EPA and OSHA are cracking down > on, with increasing pressure. > > Water is added only as a carrier, to reduce the viscosity of the solids to > allow the coatings to be sprayed. When dry, it is impossible to > distinguish between AFS coatings and the other two or three top > solvent-based paints. These coatings are not "water-based"-- they're > waterborne. > > Once it starts to set, believe me, there is no way to clean the stuff with > water. If you let it go that long, you are back to traditional solvents > for clean-up. BTW, most of the other paint companies are under the same > pressure from the EPA to clean up thier paints and switch to non high VOC > based paints. Poly Fiber is reportedly "beta-testing" thier water-borne > epoxies and most of the big companies (Dupint, Silkens, etc.) have or are > working on similar products. > > BTW, I'm no chemist, I'm just re-hasing what's in the web site ;-). I also > have no interest in AFS other than being a satisfied customer. > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) > Calgary, Alberta, Canada > Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN > Barrows Bearhawk #468 > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote: > > > > > > Ken, > > What is AFS? And what would be the cost for a Piet? Yeah, your right > > when it comes to fumes. But my point is that alot of people are using > auto > > paint as an option, and thats in the same ballpark. Think of it as a > cheap > > high. (kidding). > > But I'll bet that even the water based paint is toxic in an airborn > > situation. And there's a good chance that in a mist form, it's > > flammable/explosive. > > walt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ken Beanlands" <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:49 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint > > > > > > > > > > > AFS, AFS, AFS... > > > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS > > > > > > Bad boints to PolyFiber: > > > - PolyFiber has yet to make thier water-borne polyeurathanes publically > > > available. > > > - PolyFiber topcoats produce toxic fumes needing respirators and > > > ventilation. > > > - I could be wrong on this point, but I believe that the overspray from > > > the topcoats are also explosive (solvents are flamable). > > > > > > Otherwise, PolyFiber is a well proven system. I chose to use AFS for > it's > > > enviromentally and human friendly qualities. I have to cover and paint > the > > > plane in the basement where it's warm enough for the paint to work > > > properly making AFS the ONLY covering system that fit my requirements. > > > > > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) > > > Calgary, Alberta, Canada > > > Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN > > > Barrows Bearhawk #468 > > > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, walter evans wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poly Fiber, PolyFiber,PolyFiber... > > > > You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to Poly Fiber. > > > > walt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 PM > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A follow up question from a discussion last year for those who used > > house > > > > > paint on the Piet. Are you still happy with the results? I'm > getting > > to > > > > > that point and am considering going that way. The thought of all > the > > > > > different finish coats isnt very appealing. > > > > > Dick N. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: paint
Date: Jan 23, 2001
Steve How many gallons of paint did you use? Did you use a primer first? Did it stick to the aluminum Parts ok? I havent settled on it yet but your math has my attention. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2001
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: paint
Yes it is. When I was there, they were just finishing up a Staggerwing wing. They have also done several Scouts, Champs, etc. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN Barrows Bearhawk #468 <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Dave and Connie wrote: > > > > >AFS, AFS, AFS... > >You won't be sorry. There is no bad points to AFS > > > Ken, > > Is the AFS STC'ed for use on other than homebuilts in the US? > > My Taylorcraft is going to need covering in a few years. At > the rate I am going on the Piet it will need it before I cover > a homebuilt :-(. > > Dave > N36078 '41 BC-12 > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2001
From: mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: Re: paint
Steve, Did you use a filler/UV protector? If so, what was it? Mark Boynton > > Steve > How many gallons of paint did you use? Did you use a primer first? Did it > stick to the aluminum Parts ok? I havent settled on it yet but your math > has my attention. > Dick N. > > > > > > Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: paint
Date: Jan 24, 2001
I'll do a search of the archives and repost my description, If you want it faster yourselves, check www.matronics.com. I am in the middle of an office move so it will be a while. steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of mboynton(at)excite.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint Steve, Did you use a filler/UV protector? If so, what was it? Mark Boynton > > Steve > How many gallons of paint did you use? Did you use a primer first? Did it > stick to the aluminum Parts ok? I havent settled on it yet but your math > has my attention. > Dick N. > > > > > > Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: paint
Date: Jan 24, 2001
Thanks to Gary Meadows for doing the search, This one is a keeper if you think you might be going the latex route. I reread it and discovered things I forgot doing! Thanks Gary! Latex Paint over Fabric Sadly, before you can paint, you must cover that beautiful wooden creation with fabric. I found that the most helpful resource is the Poly-Fiber covering manual. It cost me $5 at the time, but even at the current price of $10 it is still the greatest covering deal around. I poured throught that manual several times to get my questions answered. I even called Norm at Poly Fiber about a question regarding reinforcement tapes and he was very helpfull and unhurried. I followed the Poly-Fiber manual with care up to the point where you are instructed to poly-brush the entire weave of the fabric to seal the weave. I also choose to use the generic fabric from Aircraft spruce rather than the more expensive STC-PMA Poly-Fiber brand. At this point in covering you have finished heat shrinking, rib stitching and applying all the tapes. I heat smothed all the seams again as the last step before beginning to paint. One thing that I might regret omitting may be washing the whole surface of the fabric before applying tapes or rib stitching with MEK. At this point however I'm not sure that it is really nessesary. Time will tell. About the paint. I used Sherwin Williams best grade exterior laytex. I choose this brand because of other builders experience with its ease of use and good durability. I spend a long time researching and talking with some experienced painters and they all agreed on the sturdiness of the product. They garentee the paint against fading shrinking, cracking and peeling. It is 100% UV formulated and has a 20 year warantee. The first coat over the bare fabric is unthinned flat black applied by brush. I used a good quality 4" brush. It helps to have a 2" brush to get around the small corners as well. This first coat is meant to fill the weave of the fabric. I took care to work it in, yet still leave it as thin as I could. It seems that even, thin coats prevent cracking and keep the weight down. After the whole plane is painted black I went back and gave the parts that would recieve a dark color (green) a second coat of black. The second coat I applied with an airless sprayer. Poly-Fiber says that this is a mistake, but I has good luck spraying the second primer coat and was pleased with the reduction in time it took. It also made for a smoother surface. Some argue that back in the 30"s and 40's that brush strokes were the norm. For those that would get a light finish color (white), I mixed flat white together with the black (50-50 ratio) for the second coat. At this point then the whole plane has been primed with two coats of flat paint. At this point you have the choice of going with straight laytex, or using an automotive enamal. I have seen both examples and the automotive finish will cost about $500-$800 more for two colors, or about $150 more for the latex. The auto enamal will naturally look glossy and lusterous. I didn't have the $$$'s or the equipment, or the desire for a glossy finish on my plane, so I choose to continue with the latex. For the color coats I used Sherwin Williams High Gloss products. I am not a professional painter and I got a little excited when the plane began to show some color. Unfortunately I got over anxious and didn't let enough time lapse between coats and the fuselage coats sagged horribly. I panicked. I salvaged my botched attempt by rolling the whole mess with a short nape foam roller. I thought I had ruined the whole thing. The next morning however a miricale had occured and it turned out being fairly smooth. I took more time on the wings. The finished product looks good. I'm sure I could do better next time. I hand lettered the "Air Camper" logo on the side.A few additional hints. Paint in the while temps are in the 70's. I painted in higher temps and the exterior formula dried too quickly for propper wetting out and blending with previous coats. Dont be tempted to apply more than 3 color coats. You will notice that the finish gets more and more lustrous as you do. Beware, you are adding much unwanted weight and expence, and the likelyhood that thick buildups will crack. Experiment with applicators. I think that I will do my next finish coats with a roller. I sprayed my wings, in the heat of the day and feel that a roller combined with cooler temps would have given better results. Durability is good. I have tested with avgas and autofuels and the latex holds up against both. The primer however peels right off. Keep fuel away from parts without the finish coats. In spite of the fact that the finished product is fuel proof, It seems to be affected by standing water. I have noticed that during a rain storm the standing beads of water will fade the finish slightly. Panic time again. Really I didn't have to worry though, after the water evaporates the color returns without a hint of the previous problem. I waxed a test section and this eliminated the water spot problem. It has been nearly a year now that I have finised painting and I am very pleased to report that I have found no cracks or other problems. The plane has sat out through several snow, rain and ice storms without a problem. Touching up couldn't be easier, and the colors have remained vibrant. I figure that my paint costs were less than $200, and total covering cost including poly-fiber cements and coatings were less than $500. I doubt it will be an award winner for fine finish, but it will be inexpensive, durable, non-toxic, and protective for as long as I fly it. An added benefit is that I always have the option of spraying an auto finish right over the top if I want too.Hope this is of some use. Steve E ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: paint
Date: Jan 24, 2001
Now a question. Isn't it pretty well established that auto paint doesn't flex, and what looks good now will look like the cracked Sahara dessert in time? I saw a Fisher 404 that was done in auto paint, and a beautiful shiney job, but the builder said that in a few years he had to recover the plane and repaint. Now if you go with the best latex house paint,,,how much is that a gal? Near $40.00? walt ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: paint > An added > benefit is that I always have the option of spraying an auto finish right > over the top if I want too.Hope this is of some use. > > Steve E > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Fuller" <james(at)fullersupply.com>
Subject: Re: paint
Date: Jan 24, 2001
Hi, I found out about using latex house paints when building a boat. The consensus of most of the wooden boat builders is that first quality 100% latex paint is the equal of marine paint at a fraction of the cost. The best paint, according to Consumers Report magazine, is sold by Walmart. It is their Color Place brand and is often on sale for $11 or $112 per gallon. I havn't painted any planes with it but I have painted a wooden fishing boat. It has spent two years in and out of the water and spent most of one summer stored outside bottom up. It looks as good as it did when I finished it. There is a good article at: http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/articles.html#A1 While it has to do with painting boats, much of the information about the paint is of universal value. James Fuller ----- Original Message ----- From: walter evans <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: paint > > Now a question. Isn't it pretty well established that auto paint doesn't > flex, and what looks good now will look like the cracked Sahara dessert in > time? > I saw a Fisher 404 that was done in auto paint, and a beautiful shiney > job, but the builder said that in a few years he had to recover the plane > and repaint. > Now if you go with the best latex house paint,,,how much is that a gal? > Near $40.00? > walt > ----------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 4:23 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: paint > > > > > > An added > > benefit is that I always have the option of spraying an auto finish right > > over the top if I want too.Hope this is of some use. > > > > Steve E > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: paint
Date: Jan 25, 2001
Steve, Ain't it nice to go back almost in third person, and read something you wrote years before, then realize all over again just how smart you are!:) That IS a good email on the painting! Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Flying feature on Rhinebeck
Date: Jan 25, 2001
Gang, I was wondering if anyone else saw the Flying article in the February issue of Flying about the Rhinebeck Aerodrome? It was a neat article talking about some of the airshow activities that are held there every year. It was entertaining/lots of neat pictures and even featured a photo of an airplane that is near and dear to us all!!! Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Flying feature on Rhinebeck
Date: Jan 25, 2001
> >Gang, > > I was wondering if anyone else saw the Flying article in the February >issue of Flying about the Rhinebeck Aerodrome? It was a neat article talking >about some of the airshow activities that are held there every year. It was >entertaining/lots of neat pictures and even featured a photo of an airplane >that is near and dear to us all!!! > >Gary > I saw the article Gary. A bit of history. Years ago a Piet Fly-in was held at Rhinebeck. Four Piets were there: Ed Snyders', Carl Ericksons', ? Kohlers', & mine. Ed, Carl & mine were Ford powered.. Kohlers', I believe had an 85. Believe this, he had a ballistic chute rigged. Eds', Kohlers' & mine were plans built. Carl bought his at Brodhead & then rebuilt it. It is that Piet that is shown in the article. It is now in the museum at Rhinebeck. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: Flying feature on Rhinebeck
Date: Jan 25, 2001
Among other interesting comments, Mike Brusilow recalled: >. Years ago a Piet Fly-in was held > at Rhinebeck. Four Piets were there: > Ed Snyders', Carl Ericksons', ? Kohlers', & mine. Ed, Carl & mine were Ford > powered.. Kohlers', I believe had an 85. Believe this, he had a ballistic > chute rigged. That's Joe Kohler. He lives in one of those little towns north of Keene, NH. Yup, C-85. He went on to take over someone's Avid Flyer project, then built a Heath Parasol, intending it to be an ultralight, but came out over the weight limit. Also built what he called his "second Pietenpol," a replica of Bernie's hangar, in his front yard, at the near end of an 800-foot grass strip, with a minor dogleg in the middle, and wrote an article about it for Kitplanes. One of those guys who can't sit still for two minutes, and always finds something useful to do with his energy. At some point, he pranged the Avid when a spring broke in the tail wheel assembly. The Feds blamed it on "pilot error," and he was so disgusted that he gave up flying for a while. Last I heard, he was working on another ultralight, but that's several years ago. Don't know the status of the Piet. I'll have to give him a call. Thanks for the reminder. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2001
From: mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: clamping laminated spars
Group, Here's a question for any of you who have made laminated spars or who may have some experience with this type of thing - or anyone else who just might care to comment. How have you, or how would you, clamp all of those laminations over a 12 foot length and keep the whole assembly straight. I'm looking for some innovative (i.e., cheap) way to do a good job of it. The cost of that many c-clamps or hand screws would be prohibitive - at least for me. Mark Boynton Gilbert, AZ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 2001
Subject: Re: clamping laminated spars
In a message dated 1/26/01 12:58:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, mboynton(at)excite.com writes: > > How have you, or how would you, clamp all of those laminations over a 12 > foot length and keep the whole assembly straight. I'm looking for some > innovative (i.e., cheap) way to do a good job of it. The cost of that many > c-clamps or hand screws would be prohibitive - at least for me. > > Mark, I have heard that BHP had a 29 foot long wooden jig (basically a work surface) to hold the assy straight while each laminate was added with glue and small nails. I suppose the last layer would need to be clamped so the final planing would not hit nails. I believe the last two aircraft he built had a laminated spar. I do not have the equipment to do the planing, so I make spars from 3/4" quarter sawn boards. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: clamping laminated spars
Date: Jan 26, 2001
Hi Mark, Making your own clamps is pretty easy. You can do a cam type clamp out of wood with a screw or bolt as a pivot on your workbench. Or just use a wedge of wood against a bolt. No need to spend lots on c-clamps for this. Your big challenge will be a workbench long and straight enough. Steve E. for smaller things a PVC pipe cut in sections make good clamps. Cut up section of 2" pipe into 2-3" lengths, then split down the side.... Make cheap clamps, and you can vary the pressure by making the slot larger, or using bigger Dia pipe. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of mboynton(at)excite.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: clamping laminated spars Group, Here's a question for any of you who have made laminated spars or who may have some experience with this type of thing - or anyone else who just might care to comment. How have you, or how would you, clamp all of those laminations over a 12 foot length and keep the whole assembly straight. I'm looking for some innovative (i.e., cheap) way to do a good job of it. The cost of that many c-clamps or hand screws would be prohibitive - at least for me. Mark Boynton Gilbert, AZ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "SAM & JAN MARINUCCI" <srmjem(at)ezol.com>
Subject: Clamping laminated spars
Date: Jan 26, 2001
You might try Mike Cuys' method of using electrical tape around the spars to put some pressure on the spars. This was shown in his very informative video. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)gate.net>
Subject: Re: clamping laminated spars
Date: Jan 26, 2001
Laminating Spars: I laminated my spars for a three piece wing with a jig , using wooden wedges for clamping pressure and hold down strips to keep the strips aligned (and flat in the jig). I began by making a flat surface to layout and fabricate the fuselage sides, the tail feathers and othe stuff. Made my table by using metal studs and metal stud plates as used in steel framed stud walls. These members are straight, won't warp and are cheap. I doubled them, i.e. butted two studs end to end and lapped them with a plate to make a frame about 2' x14'. Put a few 2x4 wood cross members inside and placed a surface deck made u p out of doubled 1/2" particle board ; the pieces I got happened to be 34" wide x 8' long and I lapped them to gain some stiffness. This made a flat work table about 3' x 14' and it was a flat plane surface; the table was place on 3 sawhorses. Used sheet metal screws on the metal parts and drywall screws on the wood and particle board parts. This makes it nice for disassembly and reuse. For the spar jig I screwed down two 1"x3"s aligned the base strip to a stretched wire. I made my spars out of Douglas fir strips cut from clear fir 2x4s, 14' long ripped into 8 strips per piece giving a strip about 11/16ths by 13/16ths in cross section. I laminated thse in a progression of twos. Laminated the 32 strips into 16 sticks of two, then made the next set 4 sticks of four, then adding a two strip stick to get four six strip sticks and finished by adding the last 2 strip stick to get four 8 strip spars that were a little over 5" high. The process required that the jig be reset for each successive operation and this is easy since the 1x3s were fasten ed to the deck with dry wall screws. I left the base 1x3 in place and moved the backer 1x3. Spaced the first set up to about 1 7/8th spacing, (the thickness of two 11/16th strips and 1/2' for the clamping wedges. I made a bunch of wooden wedges 2" long and about 1/8" thick tapering to 1/2" thick. The process started with placing two of the strips side by side with the wide face up (used spring clamps to hold them while coating the faces with adhesive, ( T-88). Then mated the two glued faces and placed them in the waxpaper lined jig. I used 30 pairs of wedges spaced about 5" apart and used a pair of waterpump pliers to press the wedges together. (This works to loosen the wedges as well) after the initial pressure, (not too tight) I put hold down strips accross the top of the laminate sticks screwed down to the jig 1x3s with drywall screws. Put in a hold down strip, (1x2) about every foot. The went back and put the final squeeze on the wedges. I got hairline glue lines and the spars were flat and true with out a lot of expense for C clamps, etc. The jig is opened up an additional 1 3/8th inch for each successive group.. My rough spars were a little thicker that the desired 3/4" but that was by design as it allowed for the thickness planer to do its thing without getting the spars too thin All I can say is that there may be a better way to laminate spars, but this system worked for me. Lou Larsen (stretched fuselage, A powered with stiff gear and 21" wheels.) ----- Original Message ----- From: <mboynton(at)excite.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: clamping laminated spars > > Group, > > Here's a question for any of you who have made laminated spars or who may > have some experience with this type of thing - or anyone else who just might > care to comment. > > How have you, or how would you, clamp all of those laminations over a 12 > foot length and keep the whole assembly straight. I'm looking for some > innovative (i.e., cheap) way to do a good job of it. The cost of that many > c-clamps or hand screws would be prohibitive - at least for me. > > Mark Boynton > Gilbert, AZ > > > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2001
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Aerolite glue
I am currently building a Papoose RK 1 jungster 1 biplane and was wondering if any one had any info on aerolite glue. My father is currently building a pietenpol and using T-88. I bought my project a year ago and have found some glue joints that pulled apart and took no wood fibers. The airplane was started in 1970 and i wonder if the joints that don't pull apart will be ok for flight being that i have pulled a half dozen loose with little force. I just want to be sure i'm not hanging my _ss out on a limb with the aerolite glue that was used in the construction of my bipe. sincerly shad bell Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
Date: Jan 26, 2001
----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aerolite glue The first project that I built , and flying now, I could pull NO joints apart. Better rethink that project. walt The airplane was started in > 1970 and i wonder if the joints that don't pull apart > will be ok for flight being that i have pulled a half > dozen loose with little force> > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2001
From: JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
i was offered a fly baby once. the particular machine's construction was started in 1964. was a good deal too, until i examined the rudder and tailfeathers, which allowed the woodwork to completely dislocated all the joints and collapse. woodwork was good, but glue type was unknown. it was known that this project spent some years in a humid climate in the midwest. i would start anew--after all what is your life worth? far more than you would spend on material and labor. my two .02 --- shad bell wrote: > > > I am currently building a Papoose RK 1 jungster 1 > biplane and was wondering if any one had any info on > aerolite glue. My father is currently building a > pietenpol and using T-88. I bought my project a year > ago and have found some glue joints that pulled > apart > and took no wood fibers. The airplane was started in > 1970 and i wonder if the joints that don't pull > apart > will be ok for flight being that i have pulled a > half > dozen loose with little force. I just want to be > sure > i'm not hanging my _ss out on a limb with the > aerolite > glue that was used in the construction of my bipe. > sincerly > shad bell > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great > prices. > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Aerolite glue
Date: Jan 27, 2001
If a couple are coming apart,,, I hate to think what the rest will do at a couple thousand feet with all the forces up there on them. I would think that you could start over and know it's right or make sure your house is in order and you're ok with God before taking it up. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aerolite glue I am currently building a Papoose RK 1 jungster 1 biplane and was wondering if any one had any info on aerolite glue. My father is currently building a pietenpol and using T-88. I bought my project a year ago and have found some glue joints that pulled apart and took no wood fibers. The airplane was started in 1970 and i wonder if the joints that don't pull apart will be ok for flight being that i have pulled a half dozen loose with little force. I just want to be sure i'm not hanging my _ss out on a limb with the aerolite glue that was used in the construction of my bipe. sincerly shad bell Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
Date: Jan 27, 2001
-----Original Message----- From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> Date: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aerolite glue > I just want to be sure >i'm not hanging my _ss out on a limb with the aerolite >glue that was used in the construction of my bipe. >sincerly >shad bell Shad, it aint the glue it's the gluee. Junk the project. Nothing wrong with aerolite. My Piet is all aerolite. It is flying since 1988. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 2001
Subject: Re: clamping laminated spars
Mark, I almost let this C-clamp problem stop me from building. As you said buying 20-30 clamps I a very large cash outlay. I solved the problem by making my own (if I was to build an aircraft, surely I could make some clamps). I used 1/4 inch threaded rod for the screws and 1/2 inch rod that was cut into 1 inch lengths and then tapped. The rod ends were turned 90 deg. with a stub for use as the handle. They work a little different then the real thing, but they are cheap and they work. Howdy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Merrill" <lagom(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: glue
Date: Jan 27, 2001
I have a ready to cover all wood home built that was given to me 7 years ago when a friend died. Great wood work, but I was not ready to do anything with it. hung it in the hanger. Been there for 7 years. one rope broke and we brought it down. The builder had used regular Titebond. All the gussets would fall off with a very slight tug from your finger. All the ply would come off by using your finger nail. The only pieces that would stay on were the ones nailed. It will have to be completely re-done. But it was a great chance to see the effects of time , humidity and heat on the project. This is a great example of why you should use a quality approved glue and become familiar with it and make very good glue joints as recommended. By the way, the AN hardware was all rusted. Giving reason to protect it to. Varnish inside drill holes, and inset bolts while varnish still wet. Not sure what the best thing to put on exposed portion of hardware to stop rust. Maybe a coat of varnish there as well. Merrill Piet -10% done Mt . Dora Fl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2001
From: Joe <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
here, here Mike, I'm with you, if properely applied, it's fine. this ain't the tropics or the rain forest. JoeC Michael Brusilow wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aerolite glue > > > > > > I just want to be sure > >i'm not hanging my _ss out on a limb with the aerolite > >glue that was used in the construction of my bipe. > >sincerly > >shad bell > > Shad, it aint the glue it's the gluee. Junk the project. > Nothing wrong with aerolite. My Piet is all aerolite. It is flying since > 1988. > > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2001
From: John Duprey <J-M-Duprey(at)erols.com>
Subject: Sky Gypsy
I just watched a video Bob Whittier loaned to me, it featured flying scenes from, and of Sky Gypsy, A beautifully Pietenpol belonging to (I believe) Frank Pavliga (SP?). Wow what a inspirational video, Beautifully shot with nice camera work. It shows the joy of owning and flying a Pietenpol. the only bad news is I am still years away from flying my own. Keep building!!! John Duprey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2001
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sky Gypsy
where can I order one? I can give you my address if you want to pass it around, del --- John Duprey wrote: > > > I just watched a video Bob Whittier loaned to me, it > featured flying scenes from, > and of Sky Gypsy, A beautifully Pietenpol belonging > to (I believe) Frank Pavliga > (SP?). Wow what a inspirational video, Beautifully > shot with nice camera work. It > shows the joy of owning and flying a Pietenpol. the > only bad news is I am still > years away from flying my own. Keep building!!! > > John Duprey > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: K0BLR(at)webtv.net (Ben Ramler)
Date: Jan 27, 2001
Subject: Hi
Hello Fellow Pietenpolers- My name is Ben Ramler up here in St.Joesph,MN have a question for everyone. My dad and I have had a set orignal set of plans that we got when we went to me Orrin Hoopman (sorry for the misspelling) we've had them since 1995! My question is this. After looking at various websites to my surpries Repliacraft has a Aircamper kit that they produce. Now in our garage we have a fusalage already started do I continue on that or do I go after the Kit? Thanks, Ben Ramler St.Joesph,MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2001
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
That is right, once I glued a propeller plank with Resorcinol, my first time with this glue, something was not correct with the mixing or something but it delaminated when I was doing the first cuts... Was my fault not the glue. I keep it in the shop to remeber to be carefull... beguin everything again, your glue was not correctly applied. Saludos Gary Gower --- Michael Brusilow wrote: > Brusilow" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> > To: Pietenpol Discussion > > Date: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:12 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aerolite glue > > > > > > I just want to be sure > >i'm not hanging my _ss out on a limb with the > aerolite > >glue that was used in the construction of my bipe. > >sincerly > >shad bell > > > Shad, it aint the glue it's the gluee. Junk the > project. > Nothing wrong with aerolite. My Piet is all > aerolite. It is flying since > 1988. > > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hi
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Hi Ben!! Whether to go for the kit or do your own building is something you really want to think about. I've heard the Replicraft kits are very good - extremely well made. If you want a Piet up and flying and don't want to do all the building, then by all means give them a call - they're nice folks. That would surely get you up and flying much sooner. Now, most of us Pietenpolers are stubborn, do-it-yourselfers, who take great pride in the fact that we milled all our own wood, or cut and welded all the tubing in the fuselage (see there, I'm "reaching out" to the steelers, and not trying to disenfranchise them! Aren't you sick of that word....)We're in it for the building, and love seeing our creation slowly take shape, but that doesn't mean you are, or even should be. When you're up bouncing around on a warm spring day in your Replicraft Piet, I bet you'll still feel awful good doing it!!! And I think that even if you go the Replicraft route, by the time you're through with it, you'll still feel like you did most of the work, cause you did! The big thing is do whatever it takes to HAVE FUN!!! That's what it's all about. Gary Meadows Spring, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Hi
Date: Jan 28, 2001
If your in a hurry replicraft does great work. If you enjoy puttering and the satisfaction of doing things yourself keep on going. Also, Replicraft and others offer a package of all of the steel parts that can cut out that type of work. I am in Arden Hills, Mn. There are others in this area also. Dick Navratil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Ramler" <K0BLR(at)webtv.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hi > > Hello Fellow Pietenpolers- > > My name is Ben Ramler up here in St.Joesph,MN have a question for > everyone. My dad and I have had a set orignal set of plans that we got > when we went to me Orrin Hoopman (sorry for the misspelling) we've had > them since 1995! My question is this. After looking at various websites > to my surpries Repliacraft has a Aircamper kit that they produce. Now in > our garage we have a fusalage already started do I continue on that or > do I go after the Kit? > > Thanks, > Ben Ramler > St.Joesph,MN > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Leading and Trailing edge
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, Pietenpol builders alike. A while back Mike Cuy had mentioned his drawings on the Leading and trailing edge technique he used on his piet. The banister and baseboard method. Mike sent me those and said I could post them on my web site so it would be easier for the list to obtain if one wanted them. If you go to my site, (see link below ) arrow down to the bottom of the page to the more piets and planes and click that, it will take you to a page with Mikes plane. Below the pics will be a link to the drawings. There are the 2 drawings (both are on twice, dont ask :-) ). You can right click the mouse on the pics and save pictures as and put them on your computer for future offline reference. If anyone else has drawings that they would want me to post for the group, let me know and I would be happy to do that. Carl PS,,, the weight and balance page is still on the site also. Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Subject: Help
Situation: Have beautiful 16 gallon alum fuel tank mounted behind firewall. Problem: What kind of fuel shut-off valve to use and how to remote it to the rear cockpit? Solutions: I'd like your input. Thanks Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Gillespie" <dickmarg(at)peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Corky What a coincidence. I'm just completing the same operation. If you will e-mail me your snail mail address I'll send you a drawing of what I'm doing. Dick G. Ft. Myers, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LanhamOS(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Piets Across the Pond
Browsing through Today's Pilot, a UK publication, issue # 3, there are pix to two Piets. On page 9, a side view of Zulu Yankee, owned ane restored by David Hanchett. Congrats DAvid, after an 8 year rebuild. Features a polished aluminum cowl. Looks like a 65 Continuental up front, with a prop similar to the one that I used to prop io prop on J3 Cub. Beautiful white with black trim. Article says this is the 12th Piet in the UK. Then beginning on p. 32, Century of Fllght a pix of a Piet at the Sun and Fun ( I assume USA), identifying this as a '32 design. We need to correct his! This pix shows an air cooled 4 cyl. as power plant. I can't tell if it is a Continental. So, the wisdom and Bernie live on! Keep em Flying. Dr. Orville E. Lanham Bellevue, Nebraska USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LanhamOS(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Subject: Re: clamping laminated spars
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Corky, What i did was to exit the fuel from the rear bottomof the tank , go through a 90 deg elbow, then through a ball valve. Modified the flat handle of the ball valve to take a control cable end, and hooked it up to a control cable that I got from AS&S. Has a red knob, and a "detent" so it won't vibrate closed. (sounds like a rachet when you pull it). Ran that outside the cockpit ply,and under fabric, then back into the rear side wall , so it's by my right hand just below the inst . panel. Seems to operate fine. walt ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Help > > > Situation: > Have beautiful 16 gallon alum fuel tank mounted behind firewall. > > Problem: > What kind of fuel shut-off valve to use and how to remote it to the rear > cockpit? > > Solutions: > I'd like your input. Thanks > > Corky > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ellery voge" <elleryvoge(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Mn. piet builders
Date: Jan 28, 2001
I'm moving to SW Mn in the Spring and plan starting Piet project soon thereafter. Are there any Pietenpols under construction or flying near St James,Mn. Ellery Voge ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
"John Greenlee" , "Mike Cuy" , "Pietenpol-List Digest Server"
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Hey Buddies When you mounted your wingtips did you have a bolt on each side of each spar or only one per spar? I'm having a problem with the curve of the tip matching up with the two flanges. While one bolt goes through approximately the mid-point of the bow, the adjoining bolt only has about 1/8" of material to grab!! The only solution I can see is to make up a couple of new fittings with an offset to catch the approximate center of the bows. Your thoughts, please. Still need to make up my aileron horns, pulley brackets, and water fittings for the engine block. That should do it for the welding and metal work!! Yippee!! Keep in touch. f"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Wing Tip Fittings
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Larry, On our wing tips we have only used fittings on one side of the spar. One on the aft side of the front spar and one on the fwd side of the aft spar. Went ahead and put a small tab fitting at the aileron stub (?) spar and one on the aileron at the wing tip too. Dang it, there goes more weight on the plane. I figure that one fitting per spar should take it up to about mach .89 or so... just kidding. BTW, the leading edge will be going on the wing in the next day or so. Getting closer. Rodger Childs Piet in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Help
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Corky, Piper used this set-up on their Cubs. They had the fuel shut off valve mounted directly to the fuel tank outlet and it was actuated by a push-pull throttle flex cable. Use a 3/8" valve and plumbing to your Continental engine. Wag-Aero (They're certainly not cheap) sells these valves. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2001
Subject: Re: clamping laminated spars
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Mark, I have made clamps i order to make spar splices in the past when I worked for shops so I had to leave them there. I like the ideas others have submitted also and there are a lot of ways to do it without going out and buying a lot of exspensive C-clamps. The way I did it was to go to a junk yard and get some angle iron, like what was used on bed frames. I cut the angles into lengths a little longer than the width of the spar (I'd go about 7" for a Piet spar) and drilled 1/4" matching holes in each end. Then I would buy some cheap nuts and bolts at a farm supply store and braze the nuts at the holes on a half of the angles. Then all that has to be done is to put the bolts through the angle with no nuts and into one that has the nuts and slide it over the part to be glued. It is very easy to control pressure with these. Anyway, it worked for me. You don't even need to braze the nuts; that just allows a hand to be free. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "phil phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com>
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Jan 28, 2001
You can get these valves from an industrial supply house at a reasonable cost. You might have to drill the handle for remote actuation. Phil Phillips They had the fuel shut off valve > mounted directly to the fuel tank outlet and it was actuated by a > push-pull throttle flex cable. Use a 3/8" valve and plumbing to your > Continental engine. Wag-Aero (They're certainly not cheap) sells these > valves. > > John Langston > Pipe Creek, TX > nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Boyd" <pietenpol41(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hi
Date: Jan 29, 2001
>From: K0BLR(at)webtv.net (Ben Ramler) >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: Pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hi >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:13:47 -0600 (CST) > > >Hello Fellow Pietenpolers- > > My name is Ben Ramler up here in St.Joesph,MN have a question for >everyone. My dad and I have had a set orignal set of plans that we got >when we went to me Orrin Hoopman (sorry for the misspelling) we've had >them since 1995! My question is this. After looking at various websites >to my surpries Repliacraft has a Aircamper kit that they produce. Now in >our garage we have a fusalage already started do I continue on that or >do I go after the Kit? > >Thanks, >Ben Ramler >St.Joesph,MN > > If you enjoy woodworking, being creative, and challenges keep going. You'll get plenty with the plans only. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re:
"John Greenlee" , "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" Lar- I used one right-angle fitting per spar-to-bow attachment, BUT..... like you my fist set of wingtip bows didn't match really well and I had to make up a new curve/jig. Your offset fitting idea sounds like it would work too though. You just gotta make sure the fabric won't rub on the tapered tips of der spars. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Maragret & Debbie James" <MADjames(at)theknapp.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Piets Across the Pond
Date: Jan 29, 2001
Further to the article in Today's Pilot of Dave Hanchet's UK Pietenpol. Zulu Yankee is not a re-build. Its all Dave's work built from the plans and is powered by a Lycoming 0235. As you can imagine it climbs like a rat up a drainpipe (very quickly!). The weather has been rather wet and cold this winter - not ideal for test flying - but he's got about 5 hours on her so far and should receive a full permit soon. There are 50 or so Air Camper's under construction over here that I know of, unfortunately none are planned to be powered by a Ford, so it looks as though I will have to make the trip over to Brodhead one day to fulfill that ambition. The next UK example to fly should be Mark Elliott's Subaru powered metal fuselage job in the spring - the first of it's kind in the UK. My own machine (G-BUCO) is still going strong and I have nearly 600 hours on her to date. If any Pietenpol builder or pilot is coming over to Britain - make sure you get in touch. Regards - Alan James -----Original Message----- From: LanhamOS(at)aol.com <LanhamOS(at)aol.com> Date: 28 January 2001 23:41 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piets Across the Pond > > Browsing through Today's Pilot, a UK publication, issue # 3, there are pix >to two Piets. On page 9, a side view of Zulu Yankee, owned ane restored by >David Hanchett. Congrats DAvid, after an 8 year rebuild. Features a polished >aluminum cowl. Looks like a 65 Continuental up front, with a prop similar to >the one that >I used to prop io prop on J3 Cub. Beautiful white with black trim. Article >says this >is the 12th Piet in the UK. Then beginning on p. 32, Century of Fllght a pix >of a Piet at the Sun and Fun ( I assume USA), identifying this as a '32 >design. We need to correct his! This pix shows an air cooled 4 cyl. as power >plant. I can't tell if it is a >Continental. > So, the wisdom and Bernie live on! Keep em Flying. >Dr. Orville E. Lanham >Bellevue, Nebraska USA > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Help
Corky- Like Walt Evans, I placed my fuel supply fitting at the back end of the tank so she'd still draw in a climb. A finger strainer is screwed in first, then a mini-fuel valve they call em' in ACS or Wicks catalogs. They operate real easy and don't weigh much. If you get the full size type fuel valves they take too much force to operate via cable. I used a standard el-cheapo lawn mower type throttle cable assy. but purchased from Wicks so it was long enough to make it to the back cockpit. You'll have to trim an snip the wire and casing to suit your installation. MIke ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2001
From: mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: clamps for laminating spars
John, Howdy, Lou, Sam and Steve: Thanks for the tips on clamping laminated spars during glue-up. As usual, this groups is terrific for finding solutions to building problems. I have yet to "stump the band." The wedge method sounds especially promising. Mark Boynton Gilbert, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2001
From: JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mn. piet builders
hi accross the border in ottumwa. ia is antique airfield. the have piet and the ORIGIONAL sky scout. --- ellery voge wrote: > > > I'm moving to SW Mn in the Spring and plan starting > Piet project soon > thereafter. Are there any Pietenpols under > construction or flying near St > James,Mn. Ellery Voge > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
"Pietenpol-List Digest List"
Subject: spar clamp
Date: Jan 29, 2001
Here's my two cents on the spar clamp issue, it may be completley wrong, I'm just shooting from the hip... Cut enough 1/2" plywood pieces to completly cover the spar and nail those over the spar to hold it together during lamination. You might go so far as to do this to both sides. The nails hold the laminations together but can be removed by prying off the 1/2" plywood. Robert Haines Murphysboro, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: Piets Across the Pond
Date: Jan 29, 2001
Among other interesting comments, Alan James noted: > The next UK example to fly should be Mark Elliott's Subaru powered > metal fuselage job in the spring - the first of it's kind in the UK. Er, I trust you mean it's a steel-tube fuselage, per Bernie's plans. Mark didn't redesign it as a spam can, did he? Just trying to avert some very bad dreams tonight. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Sippola" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Re: spar weight??
Date: Jan 29, 2001
I am sure someone posted their finished wing spar weights here at some time but I don't remember. I have built a set of plywood spars for 1 wing and am curious to know how much heavier they are than regular spars. My 1x4 3/4 x 13' spar comes in at 15.3 lbs. It is built from two layers of 1/4" 3 ply Baltic birch to make the 1/2" thick web and has 4 fir cap strips 1" wide to build the I beam shape for a total spar thickness of 1". The wing fittings areas have long filler blocks of 1/4 ply. I have not yet load tested the spars and probably won't till spring. Was planning on testing to around 4 or 5 G. So if some of you could post your spar weights and type it would be appreciated. Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg (currently putting in cylinders on the '65 corvair engine) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: K0BLR(at)webtv.net (Ben Ramler)
Date: Jan 29, 2001
Subject: O.K.
The other thing that would worrie me about the airframe out in the garage is that my dad is not sure that it would not pass cerification. For the skin on the fuselage he used one quarter of an inch plywood (cabinet makers wood) and he said that it might be a good idea for someone to look at. But my question would be does that really matter? Thanks, Ben Ramler ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Different Woods
Date: Jan 29, 2001
Ben, The only thing about the plywood being "cabinet makers wood", is that you would need to be sure it was made of exterior ply and not interior ply. Also, it may be that in "cabinet makers wood", the plywood may have knots and voids in the inner plys while the surface plys are beautiful specimens of wood. This would make it weaker than aircraft grade plywood where the knots and voids are cut out and filled with solid wood inserts. Rodger Childs Piet in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight??
Date: Jan 29, 2001
In asking about spar weights, Wayne Sippola noted: > My > 1x4 3/4 x 13' spar comes in at 15.3 lbs. > It is built from two layers of 1/4" 3 ply Baltic birch to make the 1/2" > thick web and has 4 fir cap strips 1" wide to build the I beam shape for a > total spar thickness of 1." Wayne, do you really mean Baltic birch? The stuff that woodworkers use for good cabinets, jigs, and other stuff where ordinary plywood won't do? Equal layers, all from good wood, and without voids or too many patches? The stuff you can buy, or at least special- order, at Home Depot? If so, you've got me worried. It's not waterproof, not even especially water-resistant. Probably for that reason, it has a reputation for delaminating without obvious provocation. Great stuff in its place, but you probably don't want it in a load- bearing part of your plane. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Different Woods
Guys, There is a gentleman in my EAA Chapter here in Minnesota that sells quality plywood. He sells good quality marine plywood in thicknesses useful to the aircraft homebuilder. His products include Okoume, Meranti, and Khaya marine plywood panels manufactured to British Standards 1088 or 6566 in the following thicknesses: 1.5mm, 3 mm, 4mm, 6mm, 12mm, 15mm, and 18mm (the 1.5 and 3mm thicknesses are only available in B.S. 6566). He also has Teak and Teak/Holly in 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 inch thicknesses. He also has Cedar and mahogany veneers for your own ply layups. I think he also told me he might be able to get, or already has, some aircraft plywood that meets an Isreali specification. Don't forget that the Isrealis used Mosquitos up until the late fifities. He is very knowledgable and is willing to share his knowledge. It might be worth it to give him a call. His name is Wayne and his phone is 651 882 9704. chris bobka eaa tech counselor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
"'Jim Kinsella'" , "'John Greenlee'" "'Mike Cuy'" , "'Pietenpol-List Digest Server'"
Subject: RE:
Date: Jan 30, 2001
Believe it or not, but I just sunk a 3" wood screw through the wingtip into the tip of the spar. Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry Williams Subject: Hey Buddies When you mounted your wingtips did you have a bolt on each side of each spar or only one per spar? I'm having a problem with the curve of the tip matching up with the two flanges. While one bolt goes through approximately the mid-point of the bow, the adjoining bolt only has about 1/8" of material to grab!! The only solution I can see is to make up a couple of new fittings with an offset to catch the approximate center of the bows. Your thoughts, please. Still need to make up my aileron horns, pulley brackets, and water fittings for the engine block. That should do it for the welding and metal work!! Yippee!! Keep in touch. f"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 2001
Subject: Re: RE:
Hey, These ailerons are more work and trouble and sensitive in alignment than anything I've encountered. I have little L clips holding the bows to the spars but it wouldn't work out so I'm going for corner blocks glued in for the bows on the ailerons. Hope it holds. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Maragret & Debbie James" <MADjames(at)theknapp.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Piets Across the Pond
Date: Jan 30, 2001
Sorry Owen - I did not mean to give you nightmares. Steel tube it is! Pleasant dreams - Alan -----Original Message----- From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> Date: 30 January 2001 00:59 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piets Across the Pond > >Among other interesting comments, Alan James noted: > >> The next UK example to fly should be Mark Elliott's Subaru powered >> metal fuselage job in the spring - the first of it's kind in the UK. > >Er, I trust you mean it's a steel-tube fuselage, per Bernie's plans. >Mark didn't redesign it as a spam can, did he? > >Just trying to avert some very bad dreams tonight. > >Owen Davies > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 2001
Subject: Re: RE:
In a message dated 1/30/01 10:26:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes: > Hey, > These ailerons are more work and trouble and sensitive in alignment than > anything I've encountered. I have little L clips holding the bows to the > spars but it wouldn't work out so I'm going for corner blocks glued in for > the bows on the ailerons. Hope it holds. > Corky > > > Corky, Here is the method I use complete with some rambling. Use the steel L clips per plans for the wing tip bow to spars. (The wing tip bow in the area between the spars is the compression strut for the end of the wing). I use corner blocks for the leading edge and the ailerons. A screw could also be used along with the block in some areas I suppose. The wing tip bow should follow the form of the center of the rib from the leading edge thru to the trailing edge. I laminate bows in a jig using three strips of wood 1/3 of an inch by 1 inch by length, and mark where the spars are for later location onto the end of the wing. I made my bow jig by tracing an extra rib onto the jig surface and then puting the nails in which hold the laminations along the center of the rib . After attaching, shape the bow down to the trailing edge for a nice blend from approximately the rear spar aft. When the bow installation is complete, install the rest of the aileron parts, spars etc, bend the hinges, place them into postion and mark the hinge bolt holes (drill later). Double check everything and then cut the aileron loose. End block all of the diagonals which go into yhe wing. When you complete this wing you should go into mourning because you'll have to cover it. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
2 Pietenpol steel fuselages--one tackwelded--one completely welded frame. plus professionally made ribs-enough for two airplanes and wing rib jig and Pietenpol plans. markl(at)intercom.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: wing tip installation
Date: Jan 31, 2001
Steveeeee The simple yet sound ways that you have for solving problems still amazes me. Diehard that I am, I went with the plans and put 2 bolts/spar. Now the L.E., T.E., and aileron stuff goes in and I can start on #2 wing. (Sure glad I'm not working on the Hatz!!) f"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2001
Subject: Re: Flying Qualities
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Mark and Sue, I don't know that much about a GN-1 as we are building a Piet per the 1933 plans drawn by Orrin Hoopman. I did submit a bid to an insurance company a few years ago to repair a GN-1 that had ground looped and naturally saw the palne to assess the damage in order to make a bid. I didn't take any measurements of the fuselage, but the cockpit looks the same as ours. I am 6' tall and wiehg between 175 to 185 pounds depending on what my wife puts in my lunches. I have two partners that are about 5'8 or 9", one weighing as I do and the other over 200 pounds (I keep telling him he needs to lose weight or he'll be flying tail heavy all the time!). The cockpit seems to fit them much better than it does me. When I sit in the pilot's seat and put my feet on the rudder bar, my shins nearly touch the cutout at the forward seat back, however I can move the rudder bar with no difficulty. I have flown in a Model A powered Piet and was amazed at how comfortable it was with those hard wood seats, but with my legs humped up to be on the rudder bar, I'm sure a flight of a couple hours will be quite enough. As far as hieght is concerned, I do know that Pete Bowers, who used to write articles for Air Progress and designed the Fly Baby, once owned a Piet and he is 6'4" tall. As far as width wise roomyness in the cockpit, it is roomier than would appear. Although I'm quite slim, others have sat in there and are usually amazed at the roominess. Shoulder or hip room is not a problem. The radiator in the front is a non-factor; you just don't pay any attention to it. The flight I took was at Brodhead in '95 and I was in the front seat, naturally. It did seem funny at first to sit there and have the radiator just a foot or so in front, but during the flight, it simply wasn't there and I had no difficulty seeing. Another thing that surprised me about the flight, besides the comfort, was how quiet the Ford engine was and how stable, solid feeling the airplane was. I got my pilot's license in a J-3 and although I still love the palne, it always seemed to bounce around a lot and really wasn't the nicest handling airplane ever built. Wish I had one! I have flown in an RV-4 with a Lycoming O-360 and Hartzell propeller taken from a Mooney and this flight was truly impressive, but there can be no comparison between the two airplanes mainly because they are built with different goals in mind. Between the two, however, I felt the Piet was the more comfortable to sit in. A concern that still plagues me about ours is the engine as we are going with the Model A. I was worried about getting off the ground with a passenger, especially since we live in south Texas and it does tend to get hot in the summer, although not as bad as other places in the state. We tend to hover around 98 most of the time, seldom actually hitting 100, and sometimes a cold front will go through and drop the temp to 96. We also live in what's called the Hill Country, and our field elevations are around 1200 to 1700 feet. Our airport now has a 1400 foot runway and this is to be extended to 2100 feet. The day I went up at Brodhead was really hot, over 100. The pilot asked what I weighed and said he'd try it, but no guarantees. The runway at Brodhead is 2400 feet. The engine was hot, this was the last flightbefore he shut down to let the engine cool, but we got off in about half the runway and cleared the trees off to one side at the end of the runway easily. On climb out, I did feel some heat from the radiator, almost to the point of becoming uncomfortable, but as soon as he leveled out the heat went away. I called back to the pilot and asked him if he could feel the heat. He said he could just barely feel it and he had never seen the engine hotter before -- the water temp was all but at red line. The comfort on the ground was good, not that much bouncing or bone crunching jarring -- all the runways and taxiways are grass there and I would gues to be pretty smooth. I thought the plane to be more comfortable on the ground than a J-3. You didn't say what engine you planned on using so I've said a lot about the Ford as that's what we're going to use. Other engines drastically improve speed and performance. There was an Piet there with an O-200 and a full electrical system, so there are all kinds of possibilities. There was a Subaru there a couple years ago and this was a big hit. I've been a mechanic for over 30 years and lately I just don't care about a lot of noise. I did notice when I was at Brodhead that the Fords were very quiet, the Continentals a lot noisier, and the Corvairs were really noisey. Everybody loved their airplane. I can't really think of anything else. If you have another question, don't hestitate to ask. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: FYI on Taxes
Date: Jan 31, 2001
I was doing my taxes the other evening and in the deductions section it asked about hobbies. Seems that if you have a hobby (for pleasure and not for profit) that it is deductible if the costs of the hobby exceed 2% of your adjusted income. I saved enough for some more parts. Just thought I would mention this as we all have the same hobby. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Sippola" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Re: spar weight??
Date: Jan 31, 2001
Owen, Yes, that is the wood I am talking about, but this is the first I've heard of it not being water resistant. I've left smaller pieces soaking in water for weeks without any apparent ill effects. Considering my whole fuselage is sheeted in the 1/8 inch version I do hope this is not a problem. Guess I'll do some more testing, and some more research. Anyone care to comment on this Baltic birch plywood? Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg ---------- > From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight?? > Date: Monday, January 29, 2001 8:53 PM > > > In asking about spar weights, Wayne Sippola noted: > > > My > 1x4 3/4 x 13' spar comes in at 15.3 lbs. > > It is built from two layers of 1/4" 3 ply Baltic birch to make the 1/2" > > thick web and has 4 fir cap strips 1" wide to build the I beam shape for a > > total spar thickness of 1." > > Wayne, do you really mean Baltic birch? The stuff that > woodworkers use for good cabinets, jigs, and other > stuff where ordinary plywood won't do? Equal layers, > all from good wood, and without voids or too many > patches? The stuff you can buy, or at least special- > order, at Home Depot? If so, you've got me worried. > It's not waterproof, not even especially water-resistant. > Probably for that reason, it has a reputation for > delaminating without obvious provocation. Great stuff > in its place, but you probably don't want it in a load- > bearing part of your plane. > > Owen Davies > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight??
Date: Jan 31, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Sippola <sippola(at)escape.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight?? > > Owen, > Yes, that is the wood I am talking about, but this is the first I've heard > of it not being water resistant. I've left smaller pieces soaking in water > for weeks without any apparent ill effects. Considering my whole fuselage > is sheeted in the 1/8 inch version I do hope this is not a problem. Guess > I'll do some more testing, and some more research. Anyone care to comment > on this Baltic birch plywood? > Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg Hi Wayne Test some to destruction, wet and dry, in as many tortured ways as you can imagine the airframe could stress the wood and if the results give you peace of mind....... Our fairly dry climate shouldn't be a factor, if the whole wooden structure is well varnished before covering. I have wood stored here that is consistantly at 7 to 12% moisture content. Winnipeg can't be that much wetter than Brandon. John P.S. Are you going on the RAA Wpg. Hanger tour Feb 24? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 01, 2001
Subject: Caution
Most of us keep our many boe-boes to ourself and maybe I should also but I made such a stupid act which caused me many hours of wasted time, at my age I can't afford a second let alone minutes and hours. BHP says on the plans as big as the nose on my face NOT to cut the ailerons from the rib structure UNTIL all is glued and hinged. This I followed but did NOT attach the bow as well. Trying to attach that bow section to the aileron later is the dumb efforts I was faced. Please builders, attach your bows BEFORE you pick up the saw. Believe me it will take a lot less time to read this than doing what I finally completed. Corky in warming La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Group- Please note that this is NOT my ad......someone just passed it along to me and I thought the group might like to see it. Mike C. PIETENPOL AIR CAMPER ? PRICED TO SELL!! .. .. BACK SEAT DASH .. FRONT SEAT DASH . LOW PASS OVER RUNWAY .. WING VIEW IN STORAGE .. RUN UP BEFORE FLIGHT .. The Quebec city area RAA chapter is offering for sale its 1976 PIETEMPOL Air Camper. This bird has been flown regularly by the members for 20 years. It has been maintained by the members also who were proud of this invaluable classic. Always been hangared. May need a bit of normal maintenance but, for economic reasons, we have to sell the club's aircraft. Airframe total time since new: 716hrs. Engine is a Continental A65-8 with 235 SMOH. McCauley 7441 propeller. Instruments are the ones that you can see in the cockpit photos. No radios or transponder. Asking price $6900. US OBO. Please contact me if you need more info. Contact Bernard Belisle located Sainte-Foy QUEBEC CANADA. Telephone: 418 654-1759. Fax: 418 654-1759. -- Posted 18 January 2001 -- Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: tailwheel
Date: Feb 01, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Untitled > > Type your personal message here: This is my tailwheel. > > --------------------------------------- > The attached .JPG file was created using Corel Print House. > > To view the Corel Print House document, double-click on the attachment. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 01/31/01
Date: Feb 01, 2001
Carl, I checked into the hobby deduction with my TurboTax. The limit on the amount you deduct is the income you have received for the hobby. That income must then be reported. So this only works if you sold your plane. Also, you never get ahead... hobby expenses: $5000 hobby income: $0 amount you can deduct: $0 hobby expenses: $5000 hobby income: $5000 income and deduction cancel hobby expenses: $5000 hobby income: $7000 pay tax on $2000 (dealer always wins) Robert Haines (not a tax guy, all usual disclaimers apply) ****** I was doing my taxes the other evening and in the deductions section it asked about hobbies. Seems that if you have a hobby (for pleasure and not for profit) that it is deductible if the costs of the hobby exceed 2% of your adjusted income. I saved enough for some more parts. Just thought I would mention this as we all have the same hobby. Carl ****** ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: tailwheel
Date: Feb 01, 2001
My Tailweel Mike B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2001
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight??
One personal comment (or question) hope is valid: With the new and modern paints and barnish (poliuretane, epoxy, etc.). Is this painting (finishing) not enough strong to seal the wood (exterior grade) and glue (titebond II water resistant type) in our homebuilts? I think (and ask you to think about this) that this finishing materials encapsulate the wood and the joints to make them really waterproof. Also we are not building submarines, if my wooden plane (imagine a Piet in this case) even built with certified wood, certified glue, and certified covering... will ever have an engine failure and lands in a river, lake or sea water. I will positive will never fly it again! Plain moisture and a little rain once a year I think that will be harmless to this finishes. Remember that all this new products are stronger and better than the ones used in the '30s... when there was no Wicks, Aircaft Spruce & Specialties or other sellers of certified materials. Those builders chosed the better "on the shelf" materials they could find. and several of those airplanes are still flying... What do you think? Saludos Gary Gower --- Wayne Sippola wrote: > Sippola" > > Owen, > Yes, that is the wood I am talking about, > but this is the first I've heard > of it not being water resistant. I've left smaller > pieces soaking in water > for weeks without any apparent ill effects. > Considering my whole fuselage > is sheeted in the 1/8 inch version I do hope this is > not a problem. Guess > I'll do some more testing, and some more research. > Anyone care to comment > on this Baltic birch plywood? > Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > > > ---------- > > From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight?? > > Date: Monday, January 29, 2001 8:53 PM > > > Davies" > > > > In asking about spar weights, Wayne Sippola noted: > > > > > My > 1x4 3/4 x 13' spar comes in at 15.3 lbs. > > > It is built from two layers of 1/4" 3 ply Baltic > birch to make the 1/2" > > > thick web and has 4 fir cap strips 1" wide to > build the I beam shape > for a > > > total spar thickness of 1." > > > > Wayne, do you really mean Baltic birch? The stuff > that > > woodworkers use for good cabinets, jigs, and other > > stuff where ordinary plywood won't do? Equal > layers, > > all from good wood, and without voids or too many > > patches? The stuff you can buy, or at least > special- > > order, at Home Depot? If so, you've got me > worried. > > It's not waterproof, not even especially > water-resistant. > > Probably for that reason, it has a reputation for > > delaminating without obvious provocation. Great > stuff > > in its place, but you probably don't want it in a > load- > > bearing part of your plane. > > > > Owen Davies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: aluminum T.E.
Date: Feb 02, 2001
I need some advice................. I'm going to use aluminum T.E. and so far my attempts with the "flap" on the back of the center section have yielded little dimples where the T.E. is flattened to accept the back end of the rib and they are visible through the covering. No amount of coaxing, using pliers, pounding, or variations of those has eliminated the dimples. I hesitate to stop-drill and cut individual tabs at each rib for fear of weakening the metal (hmm, how much stress does a trailing edge undergo, anyway?) plus it would take a lot of time. Anybody in our vast universe of wisdom have a solution for me or will I have to learn to coexist with the dreaded dimples which proclaim to all the world that I did not follow the plans. Thanks, Larry ps. The Great White Father has assigned me N 899 LW. Gom">http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: aluminum T.E.
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 02, 2001
02/02/2001 10:48:17 AM Dimples? If you still have access to the face of the aluminum, clean it scrupulously and use a tiny bit of T-88 as "bondo" . Finish with a little superfine sandpaper and I think that your dimples will disappear. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: aluminum T.E.
Date: Feb 02, 2001
Easy. Use wood. I've never seen it pucker or dimple. Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum T.E. I need some advice................. I'm going to use aluminum T.E. and so far my attempts with the "flap" on the back of the center section have yielded little dimples where the T.E. is flattened to accept the back end of the rib and they are visible through the covering. No amount of coaxing, using pliers, pounding, or variations of those has eliminated the dimples. I hesitate to stop-drill and cut individual tabs at each rib for fear of weakening the metal (hmm, how much stress does a trailing edge undergo, anyway?) plus it would take a lot of time. Anybody in our vast universe of wisdom have a solution for me or will I have to learn to coexist with the dreaded dimples which proclaim to all the world that I did not follow the plans. Thanks, Larry ps. The Great White Father has assigned me N 899 LW. Gom">http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Use wood.
>Easy. > >Use wood. I've never seen it pucker or dimple. > >Steve E >Steve- I second the motion. Use wood. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: aluminum T.E.
Date: Feb 02, 2001
> I need some advice................. I'm going to use aluminum T.E. and so far my attempts with the "flap" on the back of the center section have yielded little dimples where the T.E.is flattened to accept the back end of the rib and they are visible through the covering. Anybody in our vast universe of wisdom have a solution for me or will I have to learn to coexist with the dreaded dimples which proclaim to all the world that I did not follow the plans. Thanks, Larry I used preformed Al TE with very few problems. Are you forming the TE from Al sheet? I suggest, if you use wood, to place seaplane fittings at each bay. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2001
Subject: Re: spar weight??
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Gary, As much as we'd like to think, there is no varnish or product out there that will hermetically seal our airplanes. As hard as we try to completely cover everything, the expansion of the wood, normal wear and tear, and a million other things will allow openings or cracks to develop. The only solution is to use the best product we can find, something for whatever reason we have confidence in, and go for it. Like you said, people used stuff from the hardware stores years ago and many of these airpalnes are still flying.There is a Curtis Jenny, actually a Canuck, being rebuit at our airport in Texas and it was not varnished with anything like we have available today, but it's still here, at least enough to make it flyable again. We've gotten some ideas from this Curtis to employ in our Piet. No matter whether its wood, aluminum, or steel, rot, corrosion or rust will eventually set in and it just takes proper maintenance to correct and keep it going. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight??
Date: Feb 02, 2001
Along the same lines, I have been wondering myself if there are any other solutions to reducing long-term moisture damage. Specifically, I wanted to pose the following question........Since weight considerations would not allow a person to encapsulate the entire wooden craft with epoxy, what about something like Thompsons water seal or cuprinol? The former contains various waxes that are in some volatile carrier and the latter contains various compounds that would actually prevent rot. I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS TO ANYONE merely throwing the possibility out there for comment/or immediate scolding or spanking on the wrist. My brother has a masters from Georgetown University in chemistry and said that such treatment should not affect epoxy glues. Another question would be : "How would this affect the ability to attach covering material?" For that matter, why not pressure treat the entire wooden structure? Would someone volunteer to put a completed fuselage or wing into a wood treatment pressure vessel? Anyone?......or paint that green cuprinol wood preservative on everything. I think that weight gain after the volatile solvent has evaporated would be negligible. Then you could fly the thing to Costa-Rica and use the rainforest as your hanger. Allen Smith Fairhope, Alabama allenfarleysmith(at)hotmail.com asmith(at)egovehicles.com Pietenpol in progress in response to: No matter whether its wood, aluminum, or >steel, rot, corrosion or rust will eventually set in and it just takes >proper maintenance to correct and keep it going. > >John Langston >Pipe Creek, TX >nle97(at)juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: spar weight
Date: Feb 03, 2001
To impede the collection of moisture in the wing & tail surfaces, I installed seaplane fittings in each bay. Drainage is enhanced in flight by the negative pressure created by the accelerated airflow over the surfaces. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: A/C preservation
Date: Feb 03, 2001
Allen wrote: ...what about something like Thompsons water seal or cuprinol? The former contains various waxes that are in some volatile carrier and the latter contains various compounds that would actually prevent rot. I am suprised that your brother didn't mention that cuprinol is one of the more deadly chemicals to work with. Just running pressure treated wood thru a saw runs the risk of sickening one to the point of serious health concerns due to breathing the saw dust thrown into the air. To brush the cuprinol on as a preservative would expose one to a bad reaction, central nervous system poisoning, from breathing the stuff. This is not to be considered a slap on the wrist so to speak, we will run health risks enough just covering the piet and finishing it. OSHA and EPA have burst my bubble already by saying that just breathing the dust thrown into the air when cutting our beloved woods is bad for our health. And there is nothing more delicious than the aroma of cut wood hanging in the air in the shop... sigh. I guess the trick is to take precautions such as using strong glues, water resistant plywoods, varnish, good covering systems, keeping it in a hanger and every 40 years or so, build a fresh piet just to be sure. Rodger Childs Piet in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Sippola" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 03, 2001
Hi John, Actually I have not joined the RAA yet, though a friend has invited me to I think that particular meeting. Don't know my work schedule off hand but if I am around I just might go. Your clock has been complete and running about 4 weeks now. Looks good in my basement! Let me know if you are coming to Winnipeg. I expect I won't be going out west for a couple of months. As far as spar weights, my Baltic birch plywood laminated spar came out to 15.3 lbs for the rear spar. The front is heavier as I left extra material on the top to meet the capstrips without using a wedge but I have not yet cut it to exact size so have not weighed it. I weighed a friends freshly cut Sitka spruce spars last night. His rear spar was 10 lbs(3/4x4 3/4) and his front spar was 14 lbs (1 inch x full height possible - about 4 3/4 on front edge and 5 1/4 rear face). Based on this I suspect my total weight gain for the Baltic plywood spars will be about 12 -15lbs over using unrouted Sitka spars, and 20-25 over routed Sitka spars or about 20 over 3/4" Sitka. Not real happy with the weight gain as I think I am building most components too heavy. It was about 1/5 the cost of Sitka. Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > From: John McNarry <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight?? > Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:43 PM > Hi Wayne > Test some to destruction, wet and dry, in as many tortured ways as you > can imagine the airframe could stress the wood > and if the results give you peace of mind....... > Our fairly dry climate shouldn't be a factor, if the whole wooden > structure is well varnished before covering. > I have wood stored here that is consistantly at 7 to 12% moisture content. > Winnipeg can't be that much wetter than Brandon. > John > > P.S. Are you going on the RAA Wpg. Hanger tour Feb 24? > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Yoshie Simmons" <blueskyaviation(at)mcn.net>
Subject: New list members
Date: Feb 03, 2001
To the list, One of my neighbors, and good friend told me about this list. Pete, is building a Pietenpol, knowing him it will be fabulous. About myself; my wife, Yoshie and I live in Hilger Montana. We own Blue Sky Aviation Fabric & Repair. BSA has three divisions, R&D, Marine, and Aircraft. We are distributors and tech-support for the Aircraft Finishing Systems waterborne cover and paint system. Other distributor ships include the 2 =BC" round Micro Air 760 radios, Grove Landing gear, and a line of high performance hose, and -AN fittings. BSA is also the builder assistance center for SkyStar aircraft, Kitfox. On top of that we also have a very extensive line after market parts and enhancements for the Avid and Kitfox. Please visit our website www.blskyav.com. Noel and Yoshie Simmons Blue Sky Aviation Fabric & Repair "We do builder assistance!" PH# 406-538-6574 blueskyaviation(at)mcn.net www.blskyav.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 03, 2001
Subject: Re: spar weight??
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Tony Bingelis in his bokk on woodworking has an article about pressure treating wood and all this stuff about preserving wood and I thought pretty seriously about it until Rodger Childs told me how poisonous this stuff is. I built my own house and things around the place and have used some wolminized wood, even getting some slivers along the way, none of which bothered me at all. But my brother-in-law across the way got a splinter in his hand a few years ago and it became so infested within a week that the doctors thought they were going to have to take his arm off. The 1933 Glider and Flying manual has a tip that says if you wrap the wooden longerons with pinked tape they won't break and become a spear in case of a crash. I don't know of anybody who does this and wouldn't recommend it because you can no longer inspect the wood and see if it's rotting. Likewise, a pressure treated loneron with that poisonous chemical imbedded in it that suddenly becomes a spear doesn't sound too appealing either. I guess the best bet is not to crash! In all my years working on all types of aircraft, I have often found corrosion or rot that needed attention.Once in awhile you'll hear of an airplane that crashes due to structural failure, but these are a rareity. If an airplane receives proper maintenance and inspections problems can be corrected long before they become serious enough to cause a life threatening problem. Take your annual inspections, which you as the builder can do, seriously and really look. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 04, 2001
From: Joe <fishin(at)wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: TRIBUTE FROM AN INDIVIDUAL IN CANADA
Joe wrote: > > >> >> >> >> Subject: TRIBUTE FROM AN INDIVIDUAL IN CANADA >> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:05 EST >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> THIS IS A FIRST! I THOUGHT I SHOULD PASS THIS ON. >> JoeC 99621 >> >> > > > TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > America: The Good Neighbor. >> > > > >> > > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given >> > > > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from >> > > > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television >> > > > commentator. What follows is the full text of his >> > > > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional >> > > > Record: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the >> > > > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least >> > > > appreciated people on all the earth. >> > > > >> > > > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and >> > > > Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the >> > > > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and >> > > > forgave other billions in debts. None of these >> > > > countries is today paying even the interest on its >> > > > remaining debts to the United States. >> > > > >> > > > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, >> > > > it was the Americans who propped it up, and their >> > > > reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets >> > > > of Paris. I was there. I saw it. >> > > > >> > > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the >> > > > United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 >> > > > American communities were flattened by tornadoes. >> > > > Nobody helped. >> > > > >> > > > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped >> > > > billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now >> > > > newspapers in those countries are writing about the >> > > > decadent, warmongering Americans. >> > > > >> > > > I'd like to see just one of those countries that >> > > > is gloating over the erosion of the United States >> > > > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country >> > > > in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo >> > > > Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? >> > > > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the >> > > > International lines except Russia fly American Planes? >> > > > >> > > > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting >> > > > a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese >> > > > technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German >> > > > technocracy, and you get automobiles. >> > > > You talk about American technocracy, and you find >> > > > men on the moon - not once, but several times - >> > > > and safely home again. >> > > > >> > > > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs >> > > > right in the store window for everybody to look at . >> > > > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. >> > > > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless >> > > > they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American >> > > > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. >> > > > >> > > > When the railways of France, Germany and India >> > > > were breaking down through age, it was the Americans >> > > > who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and >> > > > the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an >> > > > old caboose. Both are still broke. >> > > > >> > > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced >> > > > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name >> > > > me even one time when someone else raced to the >> > > > Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside >> > > > help even during the San Francisco earthquake. >> > > > >> > > > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one >> > > > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get >> > > > kicked around. They will come out of this thing with >> > > > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled >> > > > to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating >> > > > over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of >> > > > those." >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Stand proud, America! >> > > > >> >> > > > Wear it proudly!! >> > > > >> > > > This is one of the best editorials that I have ever >> > > > read regarding the United States. It is nice that >> > > > one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the >> > > > world would realize it. We are always blamed for >> > > > everything, and never even get a thank you for the >> > > > things we do. >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"piet discussion"
Subject: Rust-Oleum hard gloss epoxy
Date: Feb 04, 2001
Just something that I wanted to share about paint. On my first project, anywhere that wasn't fabric, I used Krylon or one of those good spray paints. Even though they held up well in normal use, if gas got drizzled on it , it would gum up and be ruined. What I found for my Pietenpol brackets, is a Rust-Oleum Epoxy Paint. Paint it , let it air dry a little while, then put it in the oven for about 30 min @ 250f. When it cools, it's hard as hell, and gas won't touch it. Whole name is... Rust-Oleum Appliance Enamel Hard Gloss Epoxy (shows a kitchen scene on front of can) Don't know how many colors it comes in...there is at least white and black. Home Depot here I come again! walt ----------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "TED BROWN" <pietenpoller(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: spars
Date: Feb 05, 2001
For all the discussion on spars- type material, etc. I just received my spars via Georgia from Aircraft Spruce . I have 4-17' 4 3/4 x 1' pieces of the sweetest lumber I could ever expect. I paid a little more ($558) but I guess wood for AC is like oats, " If you want first class oats you have to pay for them, oaks that have already been through the horse the are a lot cheaper". I hope to have those spars holding me and my "PIET" up for a long time. I do don't believe in cutting corners anywhere. If I wanted cheaper wings I guess I would buy a "Breezy" Have a nice day and fly high. Ted- A Pietenpoller from PEO ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Drawings
Date: Feb 05, 2001
Mike Cuy sent some more drawing, on elevator trim and a nose fuel tank. I posted them on my web site so all can grab them. Just go to my site ( see link below ) and arrow down to the bottom where it says more piets and planes. On that page just below the pics of Mikes plane there is link to the page. Enjoy! Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Borodent(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 06, 2001
Subject: Re: Hardware
1 )I have the aluminum hinges for the tail they come with 3/16 steel pins and I am wondering if I switched to stainless steel pins and cotter pins would this reduce the chance of galvanic interaction 2 ) I would like to use stainless flat head screws, with nyloc nuts to hold the hinge castings in place in the wood--- ( a ) can I purchase these locally or should they be aircraft quallity specification only ( b ) what is a good source for such hardware 3 ) when installing the hinges, is it advisable to varnish them before putting them into the wood - or some other treatment --or none?? thanks for any advice Henry Williams ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: spar weight
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2001
02/06/2001 08:50:03 AM How long were the spars that you're referring to? I'd like to get a weight per foot to compare methods. I'll be starting to laminate spars soon. I have a big, beautiful piece of ash that will give me some 1 inch by 1/4 inch cap strips. Thanks, Mike "Wayne Sippola" To: Sent by: cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight ronics.com 02/03/2001 10:52 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list Hi John, Actually I have not joined the RAA yet, though a friend has invited me to I think that particular meeting. Don't know my work schedule off hand but if I am around I just might go. Your clock has been complete and running about 4 weeks now. Looks good in my basement! Let me know if you are coming to Winnipeg. I expect I won't be going out west for a couple of months. As far as spar weights, my Baltic birch plywood laminated spar came out to 15.3 lbs for the rear spar. The front is heavier as I left extra material on the top to meet the capstrips without using a wedge but I have not yet cut it to exact size so have not weighed it. I weighed a friends freshly cut Sitka spruce spars last night. His rear spar was 10 lbs(3/4x4 3/4) and his front spar was 14 lbs (1 inch x full height possible - about 4 3/4 on front edge and 5 1/4 rear face). Based on this I suspect my total weight gain for the Baltic plywood spars will be about 12 -15lbs over using unrouted Sitka spars, and 20-25 over routed Sitka spars or about 20 over 3/4" Sitka. Not real happy with the weight gain as I think I am building most components too heavy. It was about 1/5 the cost of Sitka. Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > From: John McNarry <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight?? > Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:43 PM > Hi Wayne > Test some to destruction, wet and dry, in as many tortured ways as you > can imagine the airframe could stress the wood > and if the results give you peace of mind....... > Our fairly dry climate shouldn't be a factor, if the whole wooden > structure is well varnished before covering. > I have wood stored here that is consistantly at 7 to 12% moisture content. > Winnipeg can't be that much wetter than Brandon. > John > > P.S. Are you going on the RAA Wpg. Hanger tour Feb 24? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: hardware/hinges
Date: Feb 06, 2001
I am using Vi Kapler's hinges as are many Piets. I wouldn't worry about galvanic reaction unless you are near salt water or have some sort of electrical current next to the hinge. I have heard that there is a problem with the hinges wearing and the lube carrying the resultant streak across your pristine tail surfaces. Does anyone have a good solution for that?? I have anchored mine with s.s. bolts and fiber locknuts. Just varnished the cavities along with the rest of the structure and bolted them in place. er at http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: streaks from hinges
>our pristine tail surfaces. Does anyone have a good solution for that?? >Larry- 409 or Fantastik spray cleaners work well. You'll also get that >from any piano-hinged areas somewhat- like where I joined my top and bottom cowl pieces together. It's just a minor extra step when you are wiping off the bugs. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Boyd" <pietenpol41(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 06, 2001
I have an idea but am not sure what a "seaplane fitting" is. Could you elaborate? Thanks. Dave Boyd, Champaign, IL From: "Michael Brusilow" <MB-ALBANY(at)WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Subject: Pietenpol-List: spar weight Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:18:39 -0500 -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Michael Brusilow" To impede the collection of moisture in the wing tail surfaces, I installed seaplane fittings in each bay. Drainage is enhanced in flight by the negative pressure created by the accelerated airflow over the surfaces. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: scrounging
Group- Many of you might have already been here to scrounge for parts for your project....or other planes/needs, but just in case check this site out if you have a chance:
http://www.barnstormers.com It's quite extensive. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2001
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Piet D-VIII?
Does anyone else have the "Airplanes" calender? I flipped up to February last night in the shop and was greated by a Fokker D-VIII replica. The interesting thing was that there was a covered rear pit. On closer examination, I was suprised by how much the plane resembled a Piet and started wondering if it was, in fact, a Piet in disguise. Even if it is not, it became obvious that converting a Piet into a D-VIII look-alike would be childs play. All that would be needed is a change of cowls, tail feathers and paint job. Of course, a couple of machine guns would have to be added to the boot cowl as well as a bomb tucked between the gear legs. It would certainly be a head-turner at airshows and fly-ins and would give Dick Starks and his Dawn Patrol a run for thier money. Food for thought..... Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN Barrows Bearhawk #468 <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Sippola" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 06, 2001
Spars were 13' long for use with a 36" center section. What are you using for your web? Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:50 AM > > > > How long were the spars that you're referring to? I'd like to get a > weight per foot to compare methods. I'll be starting to laminate > spars soon. I have a big, beautiful piece of ash that will give me > some 1 inch by 1/4 inch cap strips. > > Thanks, > > Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R deCosta" <rdecost1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: VR Pietenpol
Date: Feb 06, 2001
Hey, gang. Theres a cool Quicktime-VR of the Piet at the EAA museum here: http://museum.eaa.org/spirit.html It says Spirit of St. Louis, but it's the Piet there. Cheers, Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com>
Subject: Re: Piet D-VIII?
Date: Feb 06, 2001
Hi Ken I have some pictures of a DViii that started out its life as a GN-1. I took the pictures at Brodhead in '96. I spoke to the owner and took several pictures, mostly of the landing gear as I was interested in methods to stop the axle rotation with brakes on straight axles. Maybe someone else in the group was there and has more info on the aircraft. John Mc ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet D-VIII? > > Does anyone else have the "Airplanes" calender? I flipped up to February > last night in the shop and was greated by a Fokker D-VIII replica. The > interesting thing was that there was a covered rear pit. On closer > examination, I was suprised by how much the plane resembled a Piet and > started wondering if it was, in fact, a Piet in disguise. Even if it is > not, it became obvious that converting a Piet into a D-VIII look-alike > would be childs play. All that would be needed is a change of cowls, tail > feathers and paint job. Of course, a couple of machine guns would have to > be added to the boot cowl as well as a bomb tucked between the gear legs. > It would certainly be a head-turner at airshows and fly-ins and would > give Dick Starks and his Dawn Patrol a run for thier money. > > Food for thought..... > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) > Calgary, Alberta, Canada > Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN > Barrows Bearhawk #468 > <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Drawings
Date: Feb 07, 2001
I added two more drawings to this,,, for the anchoring of the tail gear assembly. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Loar Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drawings Mike Cuy sent some more drawing, on elevator trim and a nose fuel tank. I posted them on my web site so all can grab them. Just go to my site ( see link below ) and arrow down to the bottom where it says more piets and planes. On that page just below the pics of Mikes plane there is link to the page. Enjoy! Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: spar weight
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 07, 2001
02/07/2001 08:10:40 AM I'm thinking about three layers of 1/8 inch ac birch ply. I haven't looked at the AC Spruce catalog to lay out the least expensive combination to get at least 3/8 in the web. ______________ |______________| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |______| |_______| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _____ | | | |______ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |______| |_______| |______________ | 1 - Ash cap 1/4 x 1 top and bottom 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 1/2 top 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 bottom 3 - AC Birch ply 1/8 inch layers in the web one of which extends to the caps I'm not entirely happy with the top and bottom of the web. Where 3/8 goes to 1/8 should have some spruce overlapping. I laid it out this way to minimize amount of AC BIrch Ply and cost, but I think that the 3/8 ought to go all the way to the caps. I still have the fuse on the work table, so I have a little more time to think it through. Mike "Wayne Sippola" To: Sent by: cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight ronics.com 02/06/2001 01:32 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list Spars were 13' long for use with a 36" center section. What are you using for your web? Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:50 AM > > > > How long were the spars that you're referring to? I'd like to get a > weight per foot to compare methods. I'll be starting to laminate > spars soon. I have a big, beautiful piece of ash that will give me > some 1 inch by 1/4 inch cap strips. > > Thanks, > > Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: spar weight
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 07, 2001
02/07/2001 08:42:58 AM Sorry folks. Here's another try at the stick art. "Mike Bell" Sent by: To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat cc: ronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight 02/07/2001 08:10 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list I'm thinking about three layers of 1/8 inch ac birch ply. I haven't looked at the AC Spruce catalog to lay out the least expensive combination to get at least 3/8 in the web. ________________ |_______________| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |______| |______| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ____| | | |____ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |______|_|______| |_______________| 1 - Ash cap 1/4 x 1 top and bottom 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 1/2 top 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 bottom 3 - AC Birch ply 1/8 inch layers in the web one of which extends to the caps I'm not entirely happy with the top and bottom of the web. Where 3/8 goes to 1/8 should have some spruce overlapping. I laid it out this way to minimize amount of AC BIrch Ply and cost, but I think that the 3/8 ought to go all the way to the caps. I still have the fuse on the work table, so I have a little more time to think it through. Mike "Wayne Sippola" To: Sent by: cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight ronics.com 02/06/2001 01:32 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list Spars were 13' long for use with a 36" center section. What are you using for your web? Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:50 AM > > > > How long were the spars that you're referring to? I'd like to get a > weight per foot to compare methods. I'll be starting to laminate > spars soon. I have a big, beautiful piece of ash that will give me > some 1 inch by 1/4 inch cap strips. > > Thanks, > > Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2001
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Mike, Take a look at http://www.aitwood.com under "ultra thin plywood"..."European Birch Plywood"...and "Finland Birch Plywood" Since they are close to me, I purchased from them and compared it to stock samples from AC Spruce. Really great stuff and seriously less expensive. Cheers, Warren. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: seaplane fittings
Date: Feb 07, 2001
pietenpol41(at)hotmail.com > I have an idea but am not sure what a "seaplane fitting" is. Could you elaborate? They are approx one inch round plastic things (sic) with a small shielded opening in the center. They can be found in most aircraft parts book, ie aircraft spruce, etc. They are preferred to punching a hole in the fabric at the trailing edge with a hot iorn, Someimes this inverts the fabric & impedes the drainage of moisture. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dmott9(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 07, 2001
Subject: Re: Piet D-VIII?
I have 1/4 scale model plans for a FOKKER D. VII. They are available from Model Airplane News plans Dept. Plans# FSP 02981 It is of course a biplane, but does have some remarkable similarities. Other than new tail surfaces, and adding a bottom wing, it looks like it would be possible. The wings are undercambered and fully cantilevered wings with no wired brading, fuselages is flat sided, has long nose, with large engine compartment. BTW, I am currently building a 1/4 scale Pietenpol from plans supplied by the same source. Plan # FSP 1298D. I went to www.rcstore.com and ordered them directly from them. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 07, 2001
Sounds like it's time to dig out a copy of Bruhn's "Analysis & Design of Airplane Structures" or "Stress Without Tears" to do some figuring -- both of these books have good sections on wood spar design -- just matching the dimensions of a spar doesn't always work out. If you don't mind mixing & matching materials, you might check out www.continuo.com/marske/carbon/carbon.htm for some info on 1/8" dia. carbon rods -- the rough numbers show that (4) of these are equal to a 1" sq. capstrip in a spar -- added to the top & bottom of the typical Piet spar makes it twice as strong. 240 ft @ $.60 / ft. At last a hi-tech one piece wing!! ;-) Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > > Sorry folks. Here's another try at the stick art. > > > "Mike Bell" > Sent by: To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat cc: > ronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > > 02/07/2001 08:10 AM > Please respond to > pietenpol-list > > > I'm thinking about three layers of 1/8 inch ac birch ply. I haven't > looked at the AC Spruce catalog to lay out the least expensive > combination to get at least 3/8 in the web. > > ________________ > |_______________| > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > |______| |______| > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > ____| | | |____ > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > |______|_|______| > |_______________| > > 1 - Ash cap 1/4 x 1 top and bottom > 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 1/2 top > 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 bottom > 3 - AC Birch ply 1/8 inch layers in the web one of which extends to > the caps > > I'm not entirely happy with the top and bottom of the web. Where 3/8 > goes to 1/8 should have some spruce overlapping. > I laid it out this way to minimize amount of AC BIrch Ply and cost, > but I think that the 3/8 ought to go all the way to the caps. > I still have the fuse on the work table, so I have a little more time > to think it through. > > Mike > > > "Wayne Sippola" > > To: > > Sent by: cc: > > owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: > Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > ronics.com > > > 02/06/2001 01:32 PM > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list > > > > > Spars were 13' long for use with a 36" center section. What are you > using > for your web? > > Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > > > From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:50 AM > > > > > > > > > How long were the spars that you're referring to? I'd like to get a > > weight per foot to compare methods. I'll be starting to laminate > > spars soon. I have a big, beautiful piece of ash that will give me > > some 1 inch by 1/4 inch cap strips. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Spar weight
Date: Feb 07, 2001
Mike, Concerning the built up spar, I wonder, there are two things that don't look good. Several years ago, Kitplanes ran an article about built up spars and they had suggested that the spar web go all the way thru the cap strips in full width, not stepped down. With the spar web stepped down this would concentrate loads at the transion point to the thinner web. Also, I think the ash strip on the top and bottom of the spar caps should be the same material as the cap strips, spruce. The reason for this is, the ash is stronger than the spruce and thus will direct the load to the spruce cap strips and over load them. Ok, there are three things, the ash is going to add alot of extra weight. Rodger Childs Piet in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: spar weight
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 08, 2001
02/08/2001 08:47:02 AM Do you have an old copy of Bruhn? One that still has the wood design section? If so, how long is the wood section and will you make a copy? I've been using Stress Without Tears. It's good, but the limited examples often leave some doubt. The 3/8 in ply web will handle the shear stress. And the combined cap will be stronger than a one inch AC grade spruce. I looked at the drawing and considered the small glue area at the top and bottom of the two outer layers of the web and didn't like very the limited surface area to transfer the stress through. The simplest improvement would be to make them a little taller and rabbet them into the spruce cap strips. I'm a big fan of laminating stuff. It really diminishes the possibility of an unseen defect spoiling the spar. The carbon fiber rod sounds great. I had considered a layer of carbon fiber cloth in both caps, but I'm not familiar with using it in a lamination combined with wood. I wouldn't know what to expect if the fiber cloth was between wood laminations. By the way, on a related subject, I saw a picture of a jig to use with a router that would make cutting the 15:1 angle for scarfing things a breeze. It's really just a box that carries the router above the work surface. It was shown as a method for planing small areas or leveling the ends of odd bits up to logs. But, with a small wedge strip on one side it would plane at the correct angle. A router gives a much smoother surface than I had imagined and I plan to make a lot more use of the one I have. Mike "Michael Conkling" To: Sent by: cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight ronics.com 02/07/2001 09:40 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list Sounds like it's time to dig out a copy of Bruhn's "Analysis & Design of Airplane Structures" or "Stress Without Tears" to do some figuring -- both of these books have good sections on wood spar design -- just matching the dimensions of a spar doesn't always work out. If you don't mind mixing & matching materials, you might check out www.continuo.com/marske/carbon/carbon.htm for some info on 1/8" dia. carbon rods -- the rough numbers show that (4) of these are equal to a 1" sq. capstrip in a spar -- added to the top & bottom of the typical Piet spar makes it twice as strong. 240 ft @ $.60 / ft. At last a hi-tech one piece wing!! ;-) Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > > Sorry folks. Here's another try at the stick art. > > > "Mike Bell" > Sent by: To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat cc: > ronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > > 02/07/2001 08:10 AM > Please respond to > pietenpol-list > > > > > I'm thinking about three layers of 1/8 inch ac birch ply. I haven't > looked at the AC Spruce catalog to lay out the least expensive > combination to get at least 3/8 in the web. > > ________________ > |_______________| > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > |______| |______| > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > ____| | | |____ > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > |______|_|______| > |_______________| > > 1 - Ash cap 1/4 x 1 top and bottom > 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 1/2 top > 2 - Spruce 7/16 x 1 bottom > 3 - AC Birch ply 1/8 inch layers in the web one of which extends to > the caps > > I'm not entirely happy with the top and bottom of the web. Where 3/8 > goes to 1/8 should have some spruce overlapping. > I laid it out this way to minimize amount of AC BIrch Ply and cost, > but I think that the 3/8 ought to go all the way to the caps. > I still have the fuse on the work table, so I have a little more time > to think it through. > > Mike > > > "Wayne Sippola" > > To: > > Sent by: cc: > > owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: > Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > ronics.com > > > 02/06/2001 01:32 PM > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list > > > > > Spars were 13' long for use with a 36" center section. What are you > using > for your web? > > Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > > > From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:50 AM > > > > > > > > > How long were the spars that you're referring to? I'd like to get a > > weight per foot to compare methods. I'll be starting to laminate > > spars soon. I have a big, beautiful piece of ash that will give me > > some 1 inch by 1/4 inch cap strips. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spar weight
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 08, 2001
02/08/2001 09:01:07 AM The thin ash cap strip comes from an old NACA publication that someone was kind enough to give reference to recently. The stress is greatest at the furthest from the center of the spar. The ash is nearly twice as strong as spruce at a large penalty in weight, but a small amount used where there is the greatest need gives a lot of bang for the ounces added. The glue area of ash to spruce is quite large and will successfully transfer all of the load. The NACA publication compared solid spars to laminated spars with a 1/8 or 1/16 inch maple cap strip and got a significant increase in load before failure with the cap lamination. I think that you're correct about continuing the plywood web further, up to as much as through the caps strips. Thanks, Mike ps. If anyone out there has an old copy of Bruhn, it would be doing a great favor to make copies of the wood design section available. "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net> To: "Pietenpol List" Sent by: cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spar weight ronics.com 02/07/2001 10:21 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list <childsway@indian-creek.net> Mike, Concerning the built up spar, I wonder, there are two things that don't look good. Several years ago, Kitplanes ran an article about built up spars and they had suggested that the spar web go all the way thru the cap strips in full width, not stepped down. With the spar web stepped down this would concentrate loads at the transion point to the thinner web. Also, I think the ash strip on the top and bottom of the spar caps should be the same material as the cap strips, spruce. The reason for this is, the ash is stronger than the spruce and thus will direct the load to the spruce cap strips and over load them. Ok, there are three things, the ash is going to add alot of extra weight. Rodger Childs Piet in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol Plans
Info for new members to the group and a reminder to others..... Pietenpol plans and info are available thru this Pietenpol Family web site. Lots of good info. http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ellery voge" <elleryvoge(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: brakes
Date: Feb 08, 2001
What about brakes? I'm thinking about starting a Piet project. Have been since I saw one at a fly in at New Ulm, Mn a couple years ago. I observed a tall skinny guy taxi up to the fuel station, refuel, prop the engine and the airplane started to slowly move as he was walking around to mount up. I held on to the horiz. fin until he got aboard. I don't understand all I know about a airplane without brakes. Will some one please give me some idea of the technique required for operating w/o brakes. Beautiful airplane and I like the idea of flying/building something of a throwback in time. Great web site this. Ellery Voge ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2001
From: Merrill <lagom(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: logons
Hello All! I hope this does not sound like a silly question, but I have to ask. Does it matter what direction the grain runs or faces with the longrons when building up the fuselage? I know it matter in the spars. In other words, vertical grain for the longrons? I'm not losing any sleep over this but I had to ask. Maybe I have to much time to think about all this instead of just getting out there and building. Merrill Mt. Dora Fl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "phil phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Unless you have a parking brake, brakes do you no good when propng a plane. NEVER, NEVER, hand prop an airplane unless you either have the tail tied down, or someone holding the tail. I carry a 25' length of sash cord in my cub to use when no one is around. Phil Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2001
From: mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: Poem
Group, A while back someone posted this verse: And of the living...none, not one Who truly loves the sky Would trade a hundred earth bound hours For one that he could fly I'd like to get a little information about it. Can anyone help me? Thanks, Mark Boynton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: latex house paint .... a thought
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure of aluminium powder to a light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under coat,for the UV protection, then just paint a color coat over the top. It seems to me that if this would work, it could make for a durable and pretty cheep paint job over dacron aircraft fabric. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Subject: Re: brakes
In a message dated 2/8/01 8:28:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, elleryvoge(at)hotmail.com writes: > What about brakes? I'm thinking about starting a Piet project. Have been > since I saw one at a fly in at New Ulm, Mn a couple years ago. I observed > a > tall skinny guy taxi up to the fuel station, refuel, prop the engine and > the > airplane started to slowly move as he was walking around to mount up. I > held > on to the horiz. fin until he got aboard. > I don't understand all I know about a airplane without brakes. Will some > one > please give me some idea of the technique required for operating w/o > brakes. > Beautiful airplane and I like the idea of flying/building something of a > throwback in time. Great web site this. Ellery Voge > > > Ellery, My 'A' powered Piet does not have brakes or tail wheel. It is a thrill to operate in this configuration and is very very easy to handle. It simply requires different ground handling techniques than most modern aircraft. Even a Cub is modern by comparison. If you are interested in more detail, I would be happy to further describe the handling techniques I use, or you could call me at (316) 733-2324. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Hi Mike, My "Bruhn" is 1943 copy -- the "Wood Beams and Fittings" chapter is 14 pages -- good stuff! $2 should cover coping & postage. Any one else need information for thier archives?? Mike in Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > > Do you have an old copy of Bruhn? One that still has the wood design > section? If so, how long is the wood section and will you make a > copy? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
In a message dated 2/8/01 4:17:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com writes: > Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure of aluminium powder to a > light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under coat,for the UV protection, > then just paint a color coat over the top. > > It seems to me that if this would work, it could make for a durable and > pretty cheep paint job over dacron aircraft fabric. > > Bob, Might work. Test it! I used oil based paint on my second piet (the Bryant Gantzer piet) and would be interested in conducting a test using same. BHP also used oil based paints on some of his later aircraft. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Subject: Re: RE: logons
From: Chris Tracy <catdesigns(at)juno.com>
My two cents: My understanding ( I read it some where but I don't remember) is that the vertical grain requirement is for dimensional stability of the wood (shrinks/swells less in overall size) and has nothing to do with strength. If you use something else I guess it could pop the glue joint apart over time. Chris Sacramento, CA writes: > > Hello All! > > I hope this does not sound like a silly question, but I have to ask. > Does it matter what direction the grain runs or faces with the > longrons when building up the fuselage? I know it matter in the > spars. In other words, vertical grain for the longrons? I'm not > losing any sleep over this but I had to ask. Maybe I have to much > time to think about all this instead of just getting out there and > building. > > Merrill > Mt. Dora Fl > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
In a message dated 2/8/01 6:17:43 PM Central Standard Time, oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com writes: << Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure of aluminium powder to a light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under coat,for the UV protection, then just paint a color coat over the top. >> Bob, the paint that we've been using is Rust-Oleum Oil Based Enamel pt.#7715 Aluminum. This paint is flexible, and has alot of aluminum powder in it. We use this paint for a UV blocker, and to 'set' the fabric weave. The first coat has to be carefully applied, by dipping the brush only about 1/4" in the paint, and carefully applying it, so as not to make runs on the inside of the shrunk fabric. The two successive coats may be applied a little heavier. A color top coat can then be applied, after lightly sanding the Aluminum Paint. Chuck Gantzer Wichita KS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dmott9(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 08, 2001
Subject: Re: spar weight
In a message dated 2/8/01 8:40:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, hpvs(at)southwind.net writes: << Hi Mike, My "Bruhn" is 1943 copy -- the "Wood Beams and Fittings" chapter is 14 pages -- good stuff! $2 should cover coping & postage. Any oc Mike in Pretty Prairie, KS >> Mike, if this is not asking too much, could this be scanned and placed on the Web somewhere ? Unless of course its copyrighted ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Greg Cardinal has a copy of Bruhn dated 1952 and it has a whole section on designing built up wood spars. He is planning to get it to oneof the guys with a website so that it can made available for all. Chris B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <blueskyaviation(at)mcn.net>
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Bob, There has been a little bit mentioned about that sort of thing on various lists, fly5K (up and flying for less than $5K is the object of the members of that list) is one. IMHO aircraft are aircraft, houses are houses. The fabric on an aircraft go though millions of flex cycles. The old cover process were good for about 10 years, Stits came along and developed the Stits Poly-Fiber process using modern technology in the late 50s and early 60s effectively added 5 more years to the expected life of fabric. Now there is Aircraft Finishing Systems (AFS) which has an even longer expected life with out the obnoxious chemicals of the Stits or Randolph products. If cheap on the price of fabric supplies is what you want (house paint) cheap is what you are going to get. For all of us on the ground, please use aircraft parts for aircraft and house parts on houses. Noel Simmons A&P owner Blue Sky Aviation www.blskyav.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "oil can" <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint .... a thought > > Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure of aluminium powder to a > light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under coat,for the UV protection, > then just paint a color coat over the top. > > It seems to me that if this would work, it could make for a durable and > pretty cheep paint job over dacron aircraft fabric. > > Bob > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Doug, Please post your brakeless, skid-equipped techniques. Some of us are building with niether brakes nor tailwheels. Greg Cardinal >>> 02/08 7:36 PM >>> In a message dated 2/8/01 8:28:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, elleryvoge(at)hotmail.com writes: > What about brakes? I'm thinking about starting a Piet project. Have been > since I saw one at a fly in at New Ulm, Mn a couple years ago. I observed > a > tall skinny guy taxi up to the fuel station, refuel, prop the engine and > the > airplane started to slowly move as he was walking around to mount up. I > held > on to the horiz. fin until he got aboard. > I don't understand all I know about a airplane without brakes. Will some > one > please give me some idea of the technique required for operating w/o > brakes. > Beautiful airplane and I like the idea of flying/building something of a > throwback in time. Great web site this. Ellery Voge > > > Ellery, My 'A' powered Piet does not have brakes or tail wheel. It is a thrill to operate in this configuration and is very very easy to handle. It simply requires different ground handling techniques than most modern aircraft. Even a Cub is modern by comparison. If you are interested in more detail, I would be happy to further describe the handling techniques I use, or you could call me at (316) 733-2324. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Bruhn's (was "spar weight")
This section has 19 pages. They would amount to 60-70 megs of jpegs. Who wants to post them on a website? Greg Cardinal >>> Christian Bobka 02/08 11:21 PM >>> Greg Cardinal has a copy of Bruhn dated 1952 and it has a whole section on designing built up wood spars. He is planning to get it to oneof the guys with a website so that it can made available for all. Chris B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Borodent(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Subject: Re: brakes
If you could post a description of how your ground handling is different on the Piet List I would be interested thanks Henry Williams -- working on ribs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
--- Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/8/01 6:17:43 PM Central > Standard Time, > oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com writes: > > << Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure > of aluminium powder to a > light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under > coat,for the UV protection, > then just paint a color coat over the top. >> > > Bob, the paint that we've been using is Rust-Oleum > Oil Based Enamel > pt.#7715 Aluminum. This paint is flexible, and has > alot of aluminum powder > in it. We use this paint for a UV blocker, and to > 'set' the fabric weave. > The first coat has to be carefully applied, by > dipping the brush only about > 1/4" in the paint, and carefully applying it, so as > not to make runs on the > inside of the shrunk fabric. The two successive > coats may be applied a > little heavier. A color top coat can then be > applied, after lightly sanding > the Aluminum Paint. > Chuck Gantzer > Wichita KS > > > _- what part number or paint do you use for the top coats? del ============================================================ > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Hello
From: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Date: Feb 09, 2001
02/09/2001 11:16:00 AM Hello Listfolk, I wanted to briefly introduce myself & my interest in the list. My name is Kip Gardner; I am 42 years old, live in Norfolk, VA, make my living as an environmental research scientist, and am in the early (i.e. planning) stages of building a Pietenpol. This past summer I visited Andrew pietenpol in River Falls, saw 'The Last Original' and purchased plans. This past Christmas I visited William Wynne in Daytona Beach & learned about his Corvair conversion, which is my intended power choice. Right now I am in the process of relocating my family to the Akron, OH area, hopefully to be completed by this summer, at which point I will finally have the shop space to begin construction on my plane! I have had a lifelong interest in aviation, but up to now my personal experience has been limited to R/C modeling, going to airshows & an occasional ride in someone else's plane. I became interested in the Piet about 5 years ago when I saw an article in KitPlanes & realized that here was something other than an ultralight that I could affordably build & fly. Since then, marriage & Baby got first priority, but now things are 'loosening up' a little & my wife is 'on board' if not yet entirely enthusiastic about me taking on this project (suggesting a move back to her home in OH went a long way towards that process!). Anyway, I'm glad to be on the list & hope that I will both learn & contribute to the discussion. My first question to the list: I saw a posting on the BPA website by a guy named Gary (Garry?) Price who was running something called the 'Yesterday's Wings Aero Museum' in NH. He also sell plans for several modifications to the basic plans, including no-gap ailerons, an improved 3-piece wing & steerable tailwheel assembly. Unfortunately, the phone # he had in the posting (which was in 1995) doesn't seem to be in service any longer & the Phone Co. had no listing for Gary or his museum in NH. Does anyone on the list know how to contact him & has anyone used his plans in constructing their planes? I wouls like to purcahse them for him if I can find him. Thanks! Regards, Kip Gardner, EAA #639841 Laboratory Manager ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: (Philosophy of the New Administration?) "Earth First! (We'll Trash the Other Planets Later)" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: Bruhn's (was "spar weight")
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I could host it. How about scanned to OCR to text files with imbedded graphics??? I could probably do that also.. Wouldn't be so big that way. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bruhn's (was "spar weight") > > This section has 19 pages. They would amount to 60-70 megs > of jpegs. Who wants to post them on a website? > > Greg Cardinal > > >>> Christian Bobka 02/08 11:21 PM >>> > > Greg Cardinal has a copy of Bruhn dated 1952 and it has a whole section on > designing built up wood spars. He is planning to get it to oneof the guys > with a website so that it can made available for all. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I'll do it Mike. Get the copies made and send me your address and I'll send you a couple bucks. Greg Gridley, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > Hi Mike, > > My "Bruhn" is 1943 copy -- the "Wood Beams and Fittings" chapter is 14 > pages -- good stuff! $2 should cover coping & postage. > > Any one else need information for thier archives?? > > Mike in Pretty Prairie, KS > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Meadows" <gwmeadows(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I thought that the whole reason for having an experimental aircraft was for just that - experimentation! The fact that there are several very good finishing systems that are certified for aircraft is great, but to think that they are the only way to do things I believe goes against the whole intent of experimental airfcraft. If someone wants to paint an aircraft with latex or oil housepaint, I am all for it! Yes, the more expensive finishing systems will probably last longer, but most of these planes see very little direct sunlight anyway, that is if they're in a hangar. If they're not hangared, then the best system won't last long. As long as some UV block is used it's probably okay. Aircraft finishes may have been tested to see how well they stood up to the flex cycles, house paint surely wasn't not. There's the experimentation again. House paint may or not stand up to the flex cycles who knows? Steve E. seems to be having very good luck with his Piet, and it's latex painted. I think as long as you build it strong, and use a good strong covering with proper adhesives, then whatever the coating shouldn't be a problem. I'm still thinking about using house paint myself, even though I personally lean toward aircraft finishing system. Have fun! Gary Meadows A&P & Pietenpol Builder Spring, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I know a guy who used latex house paint with alum powder and latex color for top coats on a minimax and he has almost 9 years on it. Looks good and no cracks. He does keep it hangered though. I know another guy who built a Fisher Youngster with about the same method although he may have just used a silver paint for the base. Both guys talked about being real careful on the first two coats so not to get runs inside the fabric. Greg Gridley, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint .... a thought > > Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure of aluminium powder to a > light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under coat,for the UV protection, > then just paint a color coat over the top. > > It seems to me that if this would work, it could make for a durable and > pretty cheep paint job over dacron aircraft fabric. > > Bob > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I bought a Ultralight project several years ago that taught that lesson to a pilot. He hand propped the engine like he had hundreds of times with no tie down or brakes. Only this time there was a slight kink in the throttle cable and the engine was at about half throttle when he thought it was a idle. Lucky for him the plane only knocked him to the ground before it rolled a hundred yards and leaped into the air with no pilot to spare... The plane took off and spiraled to the left clipped some trees and broke the prop. It then glided to a rough landing(took out the gear) on a pond damn. Luckily this all happened without injury to anyone. It could have happened at a busy airport with lots of people and airplanes. Talking to him afterwards he said he knew to have brakes or tie down but everything had worked so well for so long he didn't think it was important. I can't imagine the felling in the pit of my stomach as my creation took off without me on a unmanned flight. Greg Gridley, KS All most ready to cover. ----- Original Message ----- From: phil phillips <pphillips(at)kalama.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brakes > > Unless you have a parking brake, brakes do you no good when propng a plane. > > NEVER, NEVER, hand prop an airplane unless you either have the tail tied > down, or someone holding the tail. I carry a 25' length of sash cord in my > cub to use when no one is around. > > Phil Phillips > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: latex house paint ....
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I painted my wings using Sherman Williams varnish as a filler coat, then Sherman Williams latex paint with a mix of silver powder. The fuselage was painted with Stitts stuff. After 13 years, there is very little difference. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: brakes
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Not to be a scold, but propping an aircraft with no brakes, no tie down & nobody in the cockpit, ain't the best idea in the world. Oh yeah, the FAA says you can't do that. MIke B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: Ken Beanlands <kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Hello
One other way to get the support of your family, and to make the process more enjoyable, is to involve your wife in the construction. When I took the covering course in Montana, I dragged my wife along. She took to it like a duck to water and has covered a good portion of the Christavia. She's actually better at it than I am. There are all sorts of ways to involve the better half. On an airplane wih a built up wing rib, such as the Piet and Christavia, it may be worthwhile to make two rib templates so that you can both work on them. Or, she could assemble them while you cut the pieces. It won't always work, but it can do wonders to the relationship and to the project when it does. It has worked for us, although I do have a pretty fantastic wife ;-). My next plane is going to be a Bearhawk with aluminum wings. You can be sure that there will be lots for Renee to do in the form of bucking rivets, flanging wing ribs, priming, etc. It's a project we are both looking forward to as it will truely be our plane (most of the Christavia was built before I met Renee). Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) Calgary, Alberta, Canada Christavia MK 1 #363, C-GREN Barrows Bearhawk #468 <http://www.spots.ab.ca/~kbeanlan> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 kgardner(at)odu.edu wrote: > > I have had a lifelong interest in aviation, but up to now my personal > experience has been limited to R/C modeling, going to airshows & an > occasional ride in someone else's plane. I became interested in the Piet > about 5 years ago when I saw an article in KitPlanes & realized that here > was something other than an ultralight that I could affordably build & > fly. Since then, marriage & Baby got first priority, but now things are > 'loosening up' a little & my wife is 'on board' if not yet entirely > enthusiastic about me taking on this project (suggesting a move back to her > home in OH went a long way towards that process!). > > Anyway, I'm glad to be on the list & hope that I will both learn & > contribute to the discussion. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
Date: Feb 09, 2001
With regard to paint, Gary Meadows observed: > I thought that the whole reason for having an experimental aircraft was > for just that - experimentation! (etc.) Does anyone know how Pietenpol himself did it? I'd always assumed he used butyrate or nitrate dope, whichever seemed best when he was building whichever plane. However, on thinking about it, it seems likely that he would have looked for a cheaper, more convenient alternative, just as he did with powerplants. I can't seem to find my copy of the Flying & Glider Manual to see whether the issue is mentioned there. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dmott9(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Subject: Re: Bruhn's (was "spar weight")
In a message dated 02/09/2001 8:03:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, gcardinal(at)startribune.com writes: << This section has 19 pages. They would amount to 60-70 megs of jpegs. Who wants to post them on a website? Greg Cardinal >> If these are scanned as B&W and least-best resolution, they shouldn't take up that much space. 100-150K per would figure out to no more than 3 megs. Photopoint.com has picture space, 25meg free and all you need is an email address to sign up. This would be ideal also for those of you who'd like to "show-n-tell" your projects. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
HI gary price is a talented individual and the drawerings ar first class. a note however, gary is now kerri. it's his/her life so if this is a problem for you.... i have talked to her and she still has the plans for sale. address is: keri-ann price pob 1133 north hampton,nh.03862-1133 if i can be of further help email me. i have no connection with this person other than purchasing plans which i consider a worthwile purchase. dr c --- kgardner(at)odu.edu wrote: > kgardner(at)odu.edu > > > Hello Listfolk, > > I wanted to briefly introduce myself & my interest > in the list. My name is > Kip Gardner; I am 42 years old, live in Norfolk, VA, > make my living as an > environmental research scientist, and am in the > early (i.e. planning) > stages of building a Pietenpol. This past summer I > visited Andrew > pietenpol in River Falls, saw 'The Last Original' > and purchased plans. This > past Christmas I visited William Wynne in Daytona > Beach & learned about his > Corvair conversion, which is my intended power > choice. Right now I am in > the process of relocating my family to the Akron, OH > area, hopefully to be > completed by this summer, at which point I will > finally have the shop space > to begin construction on my plane! > > I have had a lifelong interest in aviation, but up > to now my personal > experience has been limited to R/C modeling, going > to airshows & an > occasional ride in someone else's plane. I became > interested in the Piet > about 5 years ago when I saw an article in KitPlanes > & realized that here > was something other than an ultralight that I could > affordably build & > fly. Since then, marriage & Baby got first > priority, but now things are > 'loosening up' a little & my wife is 'on board' if > not yet entirely > enthusiastic about me taking on this project > (suggesting a move back to her > home in OH went a long way towards that process!). > > Anyway, I'm glad to be on the list & hope that I > will both learn & > contribute to the discussion. > > My first question to the list: > > I saw a posting on the BPA website by a guy named > Gary (Garry?) Price who > was running something called the 'Yesterday's Wings > Aero Museum' in NH. He > also sell plans for several modifications to the > basic plans, including > no-gap ailerons, an improved 3-piece wing & > steerable tailwheel assembly. > Unfortunately, the phone # he had in the posting > (which was in 1995) > doesn't seem to be in service any longer & the Phone > Co. had no listing > for Gary or his museum in NH. Does anyone on the > list know how to contact > him & has anyone used his plans in constructing > their planes? I wouls like > to purcahse them for him if I can find him. Thanks! > > Regards, > > Kip Gardner, EAA #639841 > Laboratory Manager > ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences > 4600 Elkhorn Avenue > Norfolk, VA 23529 > (757)683-5654 > > Bumper Sticker of the Week: > (Philosophy of the New Administration?) > "Earth First! (We'll Trash the Other Planets Later)" > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
p.s. get ahold of mike cuy via the list he's in oh and knows of piet projects, and he is a fountain of knowledge, also frank pavliga in ohio also-ask mike. --- kgardner(at)odu.edu wrote: > kgardner(at)odu.edu > > > Hello Listfolk, > > I wanted to briefly introduce myself & my interest > in the list. My name is > Kip Gardner; I am 42 years old, live in Norfolk, VA, > make my living as an > environmental research scientist, and am in the > early (i.e. planning) > stages of building a Pietenpol. This past summer I > visited Andrew > pietenpol in River Falls, saw 'The Last Original' > and purchased plans. This > past Christmas I visited William Wynne in Daytona > Beach & learned about his > Corvair conversion, which is my intended power > choice. Right now I am in > the process of relocating my family to the Akron, OH > area, hopefully to be > completed by this summer, at which point I will > finally have the shop space > to begin construction on my plane! > > I have had a lifelong interest in aviation, but up > to now my personal > experience has been limited to R/C modeling, going > to airshows & an > occasional ride in someone else's plane. I became > interested in the Piet > about 5 years ago when I saw an article in KitPlanes > & realized that here > was something other than an ultralight that I could > affordably build & > fly. Since then, marriage & Baby got first > priority, but now things are > 'loosening up' a little & my wife is 'on board' if > not yet entirely > enthusiastic about me taking on this project > (suggesting a move back to her > home in OH went a long way towards that process!). > > Anyway, I'm glad to be on the list & hope that I > will both learn & > contribute to the discussion. > > My first question to the list: > > I saw a posting on the BPA website by a guy named > Gary (Garry?) Price who > was running something called the 'Yesterday's Wings > Aero Museum' in NH. He > also sell plans for several modifications to the > basic plans, including > no-gap ailerons, an improved 3-piece wing & > steerable tailwheel assembly. > Unfortunately, the phone # he had in the posting > (which was in 1995) > doesn't seem to be in service any longer & the Phone > Co. had no listing > for Gary or his museum in NH. Does anyone on the > list know how to contact > him & has anyone used his plans in constructing > their planes? I wouls like > to purcahse them for him if I can find him. Thanks! > > Regards, > > Kip Gardner, EAA #639841 > Laboratory Manager > ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences > 4600 Elkhorn Avenue > Norfolk, VA 23529 > (757)683-5654 > > Bumper Sticker of the Week: > (Philosophy of the New Administration?) > "Earth First! (We'll Trash the Other Planets Later)" > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: JOEL CARROLL <drcarroll_2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
p.s. get ahold of mike cuy via the list he's in oh and knows of piet projects, and he is a fountain of knowledge, also frank pavliga in ohio also-ask mike. --- kgardner(at)odu.edu wrote: > kgardner(at)odu.edu > > > Hello Listfolk, > > I wanted to briefly introduce myself & my interest > in the list. My name is > Kip Gardner; I am 42 years old, live in Norfolk, VA, > make my living as an > environmental research scientist, and am in the > early (i.e. planning) > stages of building a Pietenpol. This past summer I > visited Andrew > pietenpol in River Falls, saw 'The Last Original' > and purchased plans. This > past Christmas I visited William Wynne in Daytona > Beach & learned about his > Corvair conversion, which is my intended power > choice. Right now I am in > the process of relocating my family to the Akron, OH > area, hopefully to be > completed by this summer, at which point I will > finally have the shop space > to begin construction on my plane! > > I have had a lifelong interest in aviation, but up > to now my personal > experience has been limited to R/C modeling, going > to airshows & an > occasional ride in someone else's plane. I became > interested in the Piet > about 5 years ago when I saw an article in KitPlanes > & realized that here > was something other than an ultralight that I could > affordably build & > fly. Since then, marriage & Baby got first > priority, but now things are > 'loosening up' a little & my wife is 'on board' if > not yet entirely > enthusiastic about me taking on this project > (suggesting a move back to her > home in OH went a long way towards that process!). > > Anyway, I'm glad to be on the list & hope that I > will both learn & > contribute to the discussion. > > My first question to the list: > > I saw a posting on the BPA website by a guy named > Gary (Garry?) Price who > was running something called the 'Yesterday's Wings > Aero Museum' in NH. He > also sell plans for several modifications to the > basic plans, including > no-gap ailerons, an improved 3-piece wing & > steerable tailwheel assembly. > Unfortunately, the phone # he had in the posting > (which was in 1995) > doesn't seem to be in service any longer & the Phone > Co. had no listing > for Gary or his museum in NH. Does anyone on the > list know how to contact > him & has anyone used his plans in constructing > their planes? I wouls like > to purcahse them for him if I can find him. Thanks! > > Regards, > > Kip Gardner, EAA #639841 > Laboratory Manager > ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences > 4600 Elkhorn Avenue > Norfolk, VA 23529 > (757)683-5654 > > Bumper Sticker of the Week: > (Philosophy of the New Administration?) > "Earth First! (We'll Trash the Other Planets Later)" > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2001
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Kip G.
Kip- Welcome to the list. Just had dinner in Akron last night with my fiance. You'll enjoy it I think. From Akron you'll be about a 45 minute drive from Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy and about 45 minutes from where I keep my Piet. Both are very similar. Wire wheels, 65 hp. Cont. engines, and they get flown alot. (PS- One of the neatest things to do in Akron is to fly into the now uncontrolled (or drive) Akron Muni Airport. There you'll see the huge huge, Goodyear blimp hangar off to one side, and on the other is the 1930's style airport terminal restored in all it's glory, but a nice Italian restaurant inside. I've flown my Piet in there several times, parked on the ramp and gone to dinner. Too cool. Then check out the homemade custard stand across the street for dessert. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Why no runs? At the polyfiber booth at Osh they let you do some hands on covering and they would hold it up so you could see the runs on the inside. The instructor said you want to see these runs because it was proof that the stuff was penetrating the fabric. Seems that it was hard to make stuff stick to polyester, so the idea was to lock the coating in between the fibers. The workshop was free so maybe I got what I paid for, but it convinced me that if you can build the plane, you have enough skills to cover it adequately. Joe >From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint .... a thought >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:28:09 -0600 > > >I know a guy who used latex house paint with alum powder and latex color >for >top coats on a minimax and he has almost 9 years on it. Looks good and no >cracks. He does keep it hangered though. >I know another guy who built a Fisher Youngster with about the same method >although he may have just used a silver paint for the base. >Both guys talked about being real careful on the first two coats so not to >get runs inside the fabric. > >Greg >Gridley, KS > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: oil can <oilcanbob(at)hotmail.com> >To: >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:16 AM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint .... a thought > > > > > > Has anybody given any thought to adding a measure of aluminium powder to >a > > light colour, (or silvar) latex paint under coat,for the UV protection, > > then just paint a color coat over the top. > > > > It seems to me that if this would work, it could make for a durable and > > pretty cheep paint job over dacron aircraft fabric. > > > > Bob > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Kip G.
From: "Kip Gardner/OCEN/SCI/ODU" <kgardner(at)odu.edu>
Date: Feb 09, 2001
02/09/2001 03:39:25 PM Hi Mike (& everyone else), This is sure an active list, I doubt I'll be able to kepp up as much as I'd like! It's a kind of slow day at work today (almost everyone has gone off to a big Ocean Sciences meeting in New Mexico), so I have a little more time to respond than I normally would. Thanks to everyone for the responses & advice, it's what I was hoping for. I'll contribute as I can. One thing I will throw in right now for those who are in the early stages of building. I visited Andrew Pietenpol this summer to buy plans & he showed me around his hangar & shop. He is building a new Piet (the 'Latest Original'?), currently with the fuse & wings both about 50% done. Anyway, he strongly suggested installing 9 turtledeck stringers instead of the 7 called for in the plans - makes for a much smoother looking surface with a minimal addition of weight. Mike, thanks particularly for the advice & encouragement about moving to OH. We will actually be living in North Canton, I just say Akron because most people know where that is but say 'huh?' when I say Canton. Anyway, after living down here in SE Va. for 30-odd years, where everything is spread out across about 100 miles, Akron feels like it's right next door to Canton :). I'll look forward to catching up with you & Frank Pavliga when we get settled. Regards, Kip Gardner Laboratory Manager, ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: "Earth First! (We'll Trash the Other Planets Later)" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Piet D-VIII?
Date: Feb 09, 2001
This is exactly what is being built here in Provo Utah. The project is about half done and on the back burner for now, but the fuse has taken shape and is on gear, and one wing is done. Builder is Gordon Nichol. Currently finishing a 53' Yacht. Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dmott9(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet D-VIII? I have 1/4 scale model plans for a FOKKER D. VII. They are available from Model Airplane News plans Dept. Plans# FSP 02981 It is of course a biplane, but does have some remarkable similarities. Other than new tail surfaces, and adding a bottom wing, it looks like it would be possible. The wings are undercambered and fully cantilevered wings with no wired brading, fuselages is flat sided, has long nose, with large engine compartment. BTW, I am currently building a 1/4 scale Pietenpol from plans supplied by the same source. Plan # FSP 1298D. I went to www.rcstore.com and ordered them directly from them. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Subject: Re: latex house paint .... a thought
In a message dated 2/9/01 12:07:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, jkrzes(at)hotmail.com writes: > Why no runs? At the polyfiber booth at Osh they let you do some hands on > covering and they would hold it up so you could see the runs on the inside. > > The instructor said you want to see these runs because it was proof that > the > stuff was penetrating the fabric. Seems that it was hard to make stuff > stick to polyester, so the idea was to lock the coating in between the > fibers. The workshop was free so maybe I got what I paid for, but it > convinced me that if you can build the plane, you have enough skills to > cover it adequately. > > Joe, That is the right idea; just make sure your material wicks thru the fabric for a nice neat mechanical bond. Doug Bryant ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R deCosta" <rdecost1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: AirCamper.org store online
Date: Feb 09, 2001
http://aircamper.org/store.cfm AirCamper.org t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, and mousepads. Cheers, Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Subject: Re: Poem
That was my post. It was written by the late Gil Robb Wilson, the former Edotor of Flying magazine and originally appeared in that publication. He was a master on aviation writing and that small item remains one of my favorites. Fortunately much of his works were compiled into a book. Unfortunately I do not have the name or publisher, but I'll bet you could get that information from Flying magazine. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Subject: Re: brakes
In a message dated 2/9/01 4:56:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, gcardinal(at)startribune.com writes: > Doug, > Please post your brakeless, skid-equipped techniques. Some of us are > building with niether brakes nor tailwheels. > > Greg, OK, here is the general idea. I had to develop a method of launching the aircraft by myself, but if there is someone around who wants to help, I let them. 1) Move the aircraft as needed by lifting the aft fuselage just ahead of the tail to a comfortable height and pushing to the desired location. That is somewhat different than a tail wheel aircraft which can be rolled with the tail on the ground. 2) Chocks are designed tall enough so the aircraft will not jump them at full throttle/empty/stick back with the seat belt. 3) Engine starting goes something like this: preflight complete, fuel off, aircraft in the chocks, throttle at idle position (this is verified at the carb also on an 'A' powered ship such as mine), stick back with the seat belt (a must), switch off. Prime as required, pull four blades thru (don't trust a cold mag), make it 'hot', double check all the above, start. 4) Move to cockpit via left wing tip (stay away from the prop), turn on fuel, set idle, do engine instrument checks, check idle, move around behind aircraft and pull right chock from behind the strut (put it back if a problem arises), check idle, move to leftside (reverse course), check idle, hold rear strut and remove left chock, (If the aircraft wants to creep), (mine does not) (put it back in the chock) keep a hold on the strut while moving to cockpit (if something goes wrong, turn off the switch and the fuel), board. I climb right in on top of the seat belt and then unbuckle it from the stick (the tail will come up). 5) After pre-takeoff checklist is complete, taxi with power and rudder (excitment is building). When ready to turn onto runway heading, use power and rudder and while making the turn, do a visual sweep of the pattern downwind/ base/ final/ clear/ runway clear/ all clear. 6) Apply full power for takeoff run. If engine does not make power, abort the takeoff because this is your run-up opportunity. Next, is the flight, and trust me, it simply cannot be described. 7) After landing (which is very easy), taxi back with power and rudder, saying; there is an aircraft heaven! Perhaps this method sounds messy or hard, but it is really very easy. I'll read this in a couple of days to determine if something big was missed. Also, I don't know what to do about the reg that states there must be a rated pilot in the cockpit for hand proping. Doug Bryant ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: spar weight
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Greg, I'll make up some sets the first part of next week. Mike Conkling 21806 S. Broadacres Rd. Pretty Prairie, KS 67570 ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Yotz <gyachts(at)kans.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > I'll do it Mike. Get the copies made and send me your address and I'll send > you a couple bucks. > > Greg > Gridley, KS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net> > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spar weight > > > > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > My "Bruhn" is 1943 copy -- the "Wood Beams and Fittings" chapter is 14 > > pages -- good stuff! $2 should cover coping & postage. > > > > Any one else need information for thier archives?? > > > > Mike in Pretty Prairie, KS > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2001
Subject: Re: Oil Based house paint .... a thought
In a message dated 2/9/01 10:07:59 AM Central Standard Time, farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com writes: << what part number or paint do you use for the top coats? del >> For the red color on the fuselage, and the red trim on the silver wing (after a light sanding of the aluminium paint), we used Red Devil paint. It is Polyurethane Oil Enamal, pt #1207 Chinese Red. The reason I mentioned the runs on the inside of the fabric, is because I built a couple of sample 2' X 2' mock ups, to get the feel of how much paint to use on the first coat. It was a good thing I did, because the first big brush full I applied to the mock up, absorbed instantly, and runs all over the the inside of the fabric !! Looked like an aerial view of a fifty two car drag race ! It is true that it must be a mechanical bond for this paint to work on fabric, and the first coat is when you achieve the bond. This stuff wicks so well (Rust-Oleum Oil Based Enamel #7715 Aluminum), that after the first coat was dry, it looked as if it may have been applied to either side. The only place where any light would shine thru, was where I applied a mock up rib stitch / 2" tape, using poly brush. The aluminum paint would 'fish - eye' (tiny pin holes) where there was poly brush, so for the first coat on the wing, I painted only the poly-brush areas. The second coat covered the fish-eyes and the entire wing, third coat was for insurance. I used a good quality 4" oil brush, paint brush, and the paint flowed nicely, with very little brush streaks. The aluminum powder settles to the bottom, especially while in storage. The first stir of a fresh gallon, has about a half inch of powder in the bottom of the gallon can, and took about 25 minutes of stiring, before I felt comfortable about using it. Don't forget to stir the paint about every 10 or 15 minutes, while using it. Chuck Gantzer reserved # NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: house paint
Date: Feb 09, 2001
I put on a second coat of Sherwin Williams latex on my tail section tonight. I used the first coat of black as decribed by Steve E. No light penatrates. It's in my basement shop with no vapors and looks real good. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2001
From: Don Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: Poem
Don Hicks - I am not a fan of those who clutter up Matt Dralle's website with non-Pietenpol related stuff, but the things that Gil Robb Wilson wrote is the essence of why we are all enamored of the very concept of Piet building and flying. Your "poem" sounds like an excerpt from one of Wilson's longer pieces. I went to my bookshelf and looked at my copy of "The Airman's World" (Random House, NY, 1957) but could not find it there. At the risk of cluttering, this is from "Portrait of Private Pilots" (only part of the piece). Recognize anyone you know? Lo, a portrait of private pilots - they who love the sky for its own sake - mark of the true airman. Among them, if nowhere else in the air age, romance is the great reality. At every opportunity they consort together as if holding a common secret - as indeed they do. But if you sought to define their bond, you would not find the words. Not even they can tell you. Nor can I. But this I can tell you. Theirs is a bond of the spirit, an eagerness shared, a partnership of restlessness to know challenge and motion. Long may their breed increase. Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: latex paint
Date: Feb 10, 2001
Hi Merril; Re latex paint: 1) I used Sherman Willams products, varnish, reducer & color & aircraft silver paste 2) Brush on two cross coats of varnish. Sand between coats & don't spare the tack rag. 3) mix silver paste (the quantity is on the can ) with 1/2 pint reducer. Dump that into the varnish can, & spray one cross coat. Sand & tack rag. I sprayed the silver ony on the top of the wing. Also I did not silver the bottom of the fuselage. 4) two cross coats of color & you are done. Caution-varnish will run, so apply it to a horizontal surface. Good luck, but remember I did this 14 years ago, so I hope I got it right. Suggest you do a test piece first. Mike B Piet N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2001
From: mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: Re: Poem
Doc and Don, Thanks for the info and the tip on the book. Mark Boynton > > That was my post. It was written by the late Gil Robb Wilson, the former > Edotor of Flying magazine and originally appeared in that publication. He was > a master on aviation writing and that small item remains one of my favorites. > Fortunately much of his works were compiled into a book. Unfortunately I do > not have the name or publisher, but I'll bet you could get that information > from Flying magazine. Don Hicks > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Sippola" <sippola(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Re: Spar weight
Date: Feb 10, 2001
Sent a query to Windsor plywood on just what kind of glue is used in their Baltic birch plywood which I have used for all the gussets and sheeting on my piet and also for the web material on a set of spars. There reply is included below for your information. I don't think the fuselage is going to be a problem, but I suspect I might build up something different for the spars. Not sure what at this point, but I'm not in any rush. Anyone know what AS&S 4 3/4"x 1" aluminum spars are rated for strength wise? I have an older catalogue which lists them but did not give much info. Don't remember off the top of my head what the price was. Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg Hello Wayne It is laminated with a type II (interior) phenolic resin glue. This is the same glue used in most cabinetry plywoods throughout the world. The multiply veneers of Baltic give it better strength than plywoods of the same thickness with fewer veneers. Thank you for your email question and good luck on your projects. Glenn Nelson Wood Expert ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2001
From: Bill Izard <bill(at)izard.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Spar weight
Please remove me from your Mailing List. I`m get 40- 50 emails from your company each day ,all I want is Tailwind information Regards Bill Izard New Zealand > >Sent a query to Windsor plywood on just what kind of glue is used in their >Baltic birch plywood which I have used for all the gussets and sheeting on >my piet and also for the web material on a set of spars. There reply is >included below for your information. I don't think the fuselage is going >to be a problem, but I suspect I might build up something different for the >spars. Not sure what at this point, but I'm not in any rush. Anyone know >what AS&S 4 3/4"x 1" aluminum spars are rated for strength wise? I have an >older catalogue which lists them but did not give much info. Don't >remember off the top of my head what the price was. > Wayne Sippola, Winnipeg > > >Hello Wayne >It is laminated with a type II (interior) phenolic resin glue. This >is the same glue used in most cabinetry plywoods throughout the >world. The multiply veneers of Baltic give it better strength than >plywoods of the same thickness with fewer veneers. > >Thank you for your email question and good luck on your projects. > >Glenn Nelson >Wood Expert > > ------------------------- Izard Industries Ltd P.O.Box 477 Masterton New Zealand The Izard Family http://mysite.xtra.co.nz/~izard/page1.html Phone 64 6 3788862 Fax 64 6 3788649 Mobile 025 463 254 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2001
From: Bill Izard <bill(at)izard.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Poem
Please remove me from your Mailing List. I`m get 40- 50 emails from your company each day ,all I want is Tailwind information Regards Bill Izard > >Doc and Don, > >Thanks for the info and the tip on the book. > >Mark Boynton > > > > > > > That was my post. It was written by the late Gil Robb Wilson, the former > > Edotor of Flying magazine and originally appeared in that publication. He >was > > a master on aviation writing and that small item remains one of my >favorites. > > Fortunately much of his works were compiled into a book. Unfortunately I >do > > not have the name or publisher, but I'll bet you could get that >information > > from Flying magazine. Don Hicks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------- Izard Industries Ltd P.O.Box 477 Masterton New Zealand The Izard Family http://mysite.xtra.co.nz/~izard/page1.html Phone 64 6 3788862 Fax 64 6 3788649 Mobile 025 463 254 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2001
From: Bill Izard <bill(at)izard.co.nz>
Subject: Re: latex paint
Please remove me from your Mailing List. I`m get 40- 50 emails from your company each day ,all I want is Tailwind information Regards Bill Izard New Zealand > > >Hi Merril; >Re latex paint: >1) I used Sherman Willams products, >varnish, reducer & color & aircraft silver paste >2) Brush on two cross coats of varnish. Sand between coats & don't spare the >tack rag. >3) mix silver paste (the quantity is on the can ) with 1/2 pint reducer. >Dump that into the varnish can, & spray one cross coat. Sand & tack rag. I >sprayed the silver ony on the top of the wing. Also I did not silver the >bottom of the fuselage. >4) two cross coats of color & you are done. >Caution-varnish will run, so apply it to a horizontal surface. >Good luck, but remember I did this 14 years ago, so I hope I got it right. >Suggest you do a test piece first. >Mike B Piet N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) > > ------------------------- Izard Industries Ltd P.O.Box 477 Masterton New Zealand The Izard Family http://mysite.xtra.co.nz/~izard/page1.html Phone 64 6 3788862 Fax 64 6 3788649 Mobile 025 463 254 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 05, 2001
From: Norman Stapelberg <stapres(at)mweb.co.za>
Subject: Propellor Selection
Good Day I wonder if I could ask for some assistance we recently purchased a pietenpol aircamper the air frame has tt114.5 hrs engine has 4532 hrs. The engine is in the procces of bieng overhaulled, my question is this what diameter and pitch prop should I consider using. The power plant is a Lycoming 0-235 105 hp, fuselage is a metal piet fus the wing is a gn-1 wing. As the previous owners had very little succes with prop selection prior to there mishap,nose over on touchdown thus no prop to work from, insidentely our airfield elevation is 5300 asl. Thanks in advance Norman Stapelberg South Africa stapres(at)mweb.co.za ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 10, 2001
Subject: Weight
Am to the point of getting serious about this weight business. I hope some ole' timer reads this and will go back to those old logs or papers and compare as I have no clue as to where I am. I've always been accused of being a ship at sea in a gale without a rudder. If any of you might have some comparable figures I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Weights 2-10-01 R Wing 43 L Wing 42.5 Center Section 12 Wing 97.5 Empenage 13.5 Fuselage 148.5 Fuselage 160.0 Eng mt 5 Prop 23.5 Engine 122 Mags 13.5 Carb 3.5 Fuel tank 11.5 Stacks 5.0 Wing struts 20.0 Eng and struts 204 ----------- 461 lbs Only items remaining are: Controls, cowlings and cover. Please advise Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2001
Subject: Re: brakes
From: nle97(at)juno.com
Ellery, I learned to fly in a J-3 and basically you just learn not to use brakes. There were brakes in this airplane, but you get used to not using them and eventually I could go through a whole hour of doing touch and goes and taxi on back at a pretty big airport and never use the brakes until I finally parked the airplane and had to stop. The only reason I used them there was because the parking place for the schools aircraft was on a little hump and I had to stop on top the hump. John Langston Pipe Creek, TX nle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Weight
Date: Feb 11, 2001
Gee Corky,,,, I'm like you figuring out stuff as I go but you sound like you're right in the ballpark with your weight so far. I can't imagine the rest of the work will be more than 200#. Just for kicks why don't you put it together in skeleton form and do a weight and balance on what you have so far. Did you build the original or extended fuselage? In the manual it lists the total weight for the aircamper with water in the radiator at 625#. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight Am to the point of getting serious about this weight business. I hope some ole' timer reads this and will go back to those old logs or papers and compare as I have no clue as to where I am. I've always been accused of being a ship at sea in a gale without a rudder. If any of you might have some comparable figures I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Weights 2-10-01 R Wing 43 L Wing 42.5 Center Section 12 Wing 97.5 Empenage 13.5 Fuselage 148.5 Fuselage 160.0 Eng mt 5 Prop 23.5 Engine 122 Mags 13.5 Carb 3.5 Fuel tank 11.5 Stacks 5.0 Wing struts 20.0 Eng and struts 204 ----------- 461 lbs Only items remaining are: Controls, cowlings and cover. Please advise Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 11, 2001
Subject: Re: Weight
Thanks for the reply Carl. Short fuse w/ A-65 w/ Metal prop. Have been trying to set up for w &b for two months but when weather is good it's too cold and when weather is warm enough it's raining. BUT, I'm still to hear of someone retiring and moving nawth. Does anyone have any clue as to the weight of covering and finish? Corky with " fait en Louisane" Piet ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: house paint
Date: Feb 11, 2001
Okay, here's an odd thought: I visited the local Wal-Mart yesterday and noticed something called "Liquid Aluminum" in the paint department. It's an oil-based (soybean oil) paint that appears to be mostly aluminum solids. The label said "chrome aluminum" in one place, but my sense was that it referred to the color. In all, it sounded a lot like a viable silver coat. Anyone know about this stuff? Anyone ever heard of it being used? It's of some interest, because the price was only $13 and change per gallon. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: brakes
Date: Feb 11, 2001
You could never gracefully get to heel brakes if you had to anyway! However, they did help on a LONG downwind taxi on pavement --I was providing the "airport entertainment" by turnig R.H. &L.H. 360's on the taxi way ! ;-) (Mike Cuy knows whose Cub it was!!) Mike Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: <nle97(at)juno.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brakes > > Ellery, > I learned to fly in a J-3 and basically you just learn not to use > brakes. There were brakes in this airplane, but you get used to not > using them and eventually I could go through a whole hour of doing touch > and goes and taxi on back at a pretty big airport and never use the > brakes until I finally parked the airplane and had to stop. The only > reason I used them there was because the parking place for the schools > aircraft was on a little hump and I had to stop on top the hump. > > John Langston > Pipe Creek, TX > nle97(at)juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: engines
Date: Feb 11, 2001
Is anyone using or planning on using a VW or Subaru or Geo engine in your plane? I am interested the alternatives. Robert Haines Murphysboro, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2001
Subject: Re: engines
From: tony_weeks(at)juno.com
I'm planning on using a type 4 VW engine from a 914 Porsche built to 2.6L. Tony writes: > > > Is anyone using or planning on using a VW or Subaru or Geo engine in > your plane? I am interested the alternatives. > > Robert Haines > Murphysboro, Illinois > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2001
From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RE: logons
Merrill wrote: > > > Hello All! > > I hope this does not sound like a silly question, but I have to ask. Does it matter what direction the grain runs or faces with the longrons when building up t > > Merrill > Mt. Dora Fl > I wondered the same thing when I built mine. I researched it pretty thoroughly and decided that the grain should run horizontal since more bending takes palce in that plane than in the vertical plane. Of more importance is to make sure that all four longerons are the same - it would make it difficult to have a symmetrical fuselage if some longerons had vertical grain and others horizontal. Good luck, Jack Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2001
From: Elbie(at)aol.com (by way of Matt Dralle 925-606-1001 <dralle(at)matronics.com>)
Subject: Announcement
2/9/2001 Fellow Pilots and Builders: EM aviation is pleased to announce that the RiteAngle III Angle of Attack system is in production. I know this has been a long, long wait for some of you, however I will not sell a system that is not up to my standards. The long delay was partially caused by the total new design required after the RiteAngle 2000 system was terminated. The remainder of the delay was insuring the system met all our requirements such as both hot and cold environment testing. The first production group of systems off the line are being again extensively tested for approximately 2 weeks before we deliver any systems to insure there are no "bugs" appearing. When all production testing is accomplished I will ship according to who has sent in the order form via fax or US mail. (Again, DO NOT send your credit card number via e-mail! I DO NOT have a secure e-mail line.) If you want a spot in line for early delivery you can request this via e-mail, and mail your check or CC number. At present time I estimate 4- 10 weeks before your delivery, depending on when I receive your payment. To those of you who have been in correspondence with me for the last year, thanks for your belief in EM aviation's product, and soon you will have a product in your hands. I honor my correspondence of the quoted price. Current price $295 + mount & options see web site for information. www.riteangle.com Elbie Mendenhall President EM Aviation, LLC P NE Prairie Rd Brush Prairie WA 98606 360-260-0772 www.riteangle.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Date: Feb 13, 2001
Sounds like a good check list and starting procedure Doug. Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Vi Kapler
Date: Feb 13, 2001
can someone tell me what has happened, I seem to be off of the Pietenpol list for some reason, but I have never un-subscribed. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bell <mbell(at)sctcorp.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vi Kapler > > > I just ordered the three piece wing plan from him. I know he also > offers cast aluminum hinges. Please take a moment to ask him for a > list of products when you contact him. I talked to him for just a few > moments and forgot. > > Vi Kapler > 1033 Forest Hills Drive, S.W. > Rochester, MN 55902 > 507-288-3322 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Feb 13, 2001
Subject: Re: brakes
Awesome check list if you fly where you can do that. I would love to be able to go sans brakes, that would really simplify things. But where I fly out of it could be VERY expensive. Just a reality check!!!! No brake airplanes are not for everyone everywhere. " It could ruin your whole day to roll helplessly into a parked Cessna 310 with your brakeless Sprinter Sport Special ( even leaning back hard wont stop you ) " Tony Bingelis. Ed G. Palm Harbor, Fl. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hank & Mary Ellen" <aeroc398(at)hpnc.com>
Subject: Re: Poem
Date: Feb 14, 2001
Hi, If you get this e-mail me my husband is building a Pietenpol, I would like to get this for him. Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poem > > Group, > > A while back someone posted this verse: > > And of the living...none, not one > Who truly loves the sky > Would trade a hundred earth bound hours > For one that he could fly > > I'd like to get a little information about it. Can anyone help me? > > Thanks, > > Mark Boynton > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Poem
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2001
02/15/2001 12:34:05 PM Another really nice present would be a copy of "Stick and Rudder", by Langewiesche. If he's not a pilot already, or if he is and doesn't have a copy, he can read and reread all the way through construction and be better prepared to fly when he's finished. It lists for $23, hardback. Mike "Hank & Mary Ellen" To: Sent by: cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@mat Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poem ronics.com 02/14/2001 01:21 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list Hi, If you get this e-mail me my husband is building a Pietenpol, I would like to get this for him. Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poem > > Group, > > A while back someone posted this verse: > > And of the living...none, not one > Who truly loves the sky > Would trade a hundred earth bound hours > For one that he could fly > > I'd like to get a little information about it. Can anyone help me? > > Thanks, > > Mark Boynton > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Poem
Look for "Stick and Rudder" on a general search on ebay. You might be able to turn up a 1940's edition for 10 to 15 dollars. I see them all the time. Chris B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2001
From: Wayne M <mwmp(at)earthlink.net>
"pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com"
Subject: And of the living....
The poem is part of a much longer one.......as follows: FIRST THINGS FIRST The boundary lamps were yellow blurs Against the winter night And I had checked the last ship in And snapped the office light, And paused a while to let the ghosts Of bygone days and men Roam down the skies of auld lang syne As one will now and then ... When fancy set me company A red checked lad to stand With questions gleaming in his eyes, A model in his hand. He may have been your boy or mine, I could not clearly see, But there was no mistaking how His eyes were questing me For answers which all sons must have Who builds their toys in play But pow'r them in valiant dreams And fly them far away; So down I sat with him beside There in the dim lit shed And with the ghost of better men To check on me, I said: "I cannot tell you, sonny boy, The future of this art, But one thing I can show you, lad, An old time pilot's heart; And you may judge what flight may give Or hold in store for you By knowing how true pilots feel About the work they do; And only he who dedicates His life to some ideal Becomes as one with he dreams His future will reveal Not one of whose wings are dust Would call his bargain in, Not one of us would welsh his part To save his bloomin' skin, Not one would wish to walk again Unless allowed to throw His heart into the thing he loved And go as he would go: Not one would change for gold or pow'r Nor fun nor love nor fame The part he played and price he paid In making the good game. And of the living ... none, not one Regrets the scars he bears, The sheer uncertainty of plans, The poverty he shares, Remitted price for one mistake That checks a bright career, The shattered hopes, the scant rewards, The future never clear: And of the living ... none, not one Who truly loves the sky Would trade a hundred earth bound hours For one that he could fly. If that sleek model in your hand Which you have brought to me Most represents the thing you love, The thing you want to be, Then you will fill your curly head With knowledge, fact and lore, For there is no short cut which leads To aviation's door; And only those whose zeal is proved By patient toil and will Shall ever have a part to play Or have a place to fill." And suddenly the lad was gone On wings I could not hear, But from afar off came his voice In studied tones and clear, A prophet's message simply told For this is what he said And why his hand will someday lead Formations overhead, "Who wants to fly has got to know: Now two times two is four: I've got to learn the first things first! .. I closed the hanger door." -- Gill Robb Wilson, first spokesman and advisor to the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hill" <jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: wing spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
I'm thinking of using 3/4" wing spars instead of 1" and I've heard that it is not uncommon. They would be unrouted as opposed to the 1" routed spars. What are the pros and cons? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: wing spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
> I'm thinking of using 3/4" wing spars instead of 1" and I've heard that it is not uncommon. They would be unrouted as opposed to the 1" routed spars. What are the pros and cons? I used 1" spars. I have had no problems. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 3/4" spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
>I used 1" spars. I have had no problems. >Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) Correction: 3/4" spars. Mike B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John or Jean Dilatush" <Dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
Jeff: I am just finishing my Piet an used 3/4" vertical grain fir spars. After researching costs, and using the numbers published by the Western Wood Association, it appears that fir is about 25% stronger than sitka spruce however has also about 25% more weight. So if Mr. Pietenpol specified 1" spars (routed out to 1/2" thick") and you would use the 3/4" fir, I think that you will end up with more than enough strength. The cost difference is well worth the extra 2 to 4 lbs per spar penalty. I believe that I was quoted about 4 years ago $650.00 for spruce with shipping and was able to get the fir in Denver for about $250.00! I think you can find a saving of the weight someplace else in the plane! Other builders seem to have come to the same conclusion. John Dilatush dilatush(at)amigo.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Wing Spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
Jeff, 3/4" thick wing spars would work just fine, they were used on J-3 Cubs before going to metal spars, and the Piet and the Cub are similar in many ways. The 3/4" spar blanks should be a little less expensive than 1" spars and since the routing of the 1" spars leaves a lot of shavings on the floor and takes a while to work up, time and money are saved. A big plus. And as you change one thing, that change affects other things on down the line. Basicly you need to keep the distance between the spar center lines the same (when viewed from the ends of the spars) when using the 3/4" spars as in using the 1" spars. So to keep the distance between spars the same as called out on the plans, you will have to "adjust" the rib fixture to make the ribs fit the 3/4" spars. Do you make up the 1/4" difference by adding a 1/4" filler brace to the ribs at the front of the spar to make them fit? Or do you add the 1/4" filler brace to the rear of the spars? Adding a 1/8" filler strip to the front and rear of where the 3/4" spars locate in the ribs seems to be a better choice. You will also have to redesign the wing attach fittings at the cabane struts and the lift strut attach straps. No big deal, but either way, change the the angle that the lift strut straps are fitted to the spars. Keep them inline with the lift struts. And this will mean a redesign of the 1/8" plywood backing plates where the lift strut straps attach to the spars. No big deal either, just longer plates. And the spar end of the lift struts will need to be adjusted for the change too. Or as the old song went, "The leg bone connected to the knee bone, and the knee bone connected to the thigh bone, and the thigh bone connected..." But that is part of the adventure of building your own plane. So by going with 3/4" spars you could save some money over 1" spars but need to adjust a bunch of other things in the process. Best of wishes. Rodger Childs Piet in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 16, 2001
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars
I feel if you can find a reliable source that Doug Fir is the way to go. I was lucky. I was encouraged to go fir by several on this net. I searched and found a good source of QUALITY lumber. My four spars of beautiful 3/4 routed down DF cost me $ 182.50. If any of you would like my source please contact me personally by e mail. Corky in damp, wet , humid La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Fuller" <James(at)fullersupply.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
How does white pine compare to spruce or fir as regards strength? As I recall fir is somewhat heavier but is correspondingly stronger. Is pine stronger/weaker? how about weight? TIA James Fuller ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars
Date: Feb 16, 2001
Doug fir here also. I'm picking mine up tomorrow, ripped to size and planed with a little extra wood to spare,,, cost,, $200. I too am going with the 3/4 spars. Just gotta keep doing those darned ole ribs to put on the spars. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars I feel if you can find a reliable source that Doug Fir is the way to go. I was lucky. I was encouraged to go fir by several on this net. I searched and found a good source of QUALITY lumber. My four spars of beautiful 3/4 routed down DF cost me $ 182.50. If any of you would like my source please contact me personally by e mail. Corky in damp, wet , humid La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2001
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars
--- John or Jean Dilatush wrote: > Dilatush" > > Jeff: > > I am just finishing my Piet an used 3/4" vertical > grain fir spars. > After researching costs, and using the numbers > published by the Western > Wood Association, it appears that fir is about 25% > stronger than sitka > spruce however has also about 25% more weight. So > if Mr. Pietenpol > specified 1" spars (routed out to 1/2" thick") and > you would use the > 3/4" fir, I think that you will end up with more > than enough strength. > The cost difference is well worth the extra 2 to 4 > lbs per spar penalty. > I believe that I was quoted about 4 years ago > $650.00 for spruce with > shipping and was able to get the fir in Denver for > about $250.00! I > think you can find a saving of the weight someplace > else in the plane! > Other builders seem to have come to the same > conclusion. > > John Dilatush dilatush(at)amigo.net there is one other difference that you are missing. I bought spruce that is not aircraft certified, but the quality is the same. I bought mine from McCormick Lumber Madison Wi for $375.00. they stock it for boat building. Out of the 5 boards I received from them only one was not good enough for a spar. the others were well above the specs called out for aircraft certified. del-wisconsin Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John or Jean Dilatush" <Dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Wing Spars
Date: Feb 17, 2001
James: I am sorry, but gave my "Western Woods Engineering Book" to a friend and never got it back. This is the reason I now write down the names of people I lend things to! I think if you contact the Western Woods Association they can send you one. As I remember, there was no charge, and I believe they are located in WI or MN. Good luck, I hope you can find one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fuller" <James(at)fullersupply.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars > > How does white pine compare to spruce or fir as regards strength? > > As I recall fir is somewhat heavier but is correspondingly stronger. Is > pine stronger/weaker? > how about weight? > > TIA > > James Fuller > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John or Jean Dilatush" <Dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Wing Spars - continued
Date: Feb 17, 2001
Thanks for all the replies and comments re: fir wing spars. To clarify a couple of points: I live in a small town high in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado, so freight costs are a major part of the expense of getting larger shipments of materials here. The sitka spruce spars that I investigated had to come form Calgary Canada, therefore the gross cost in comparison with fir spars. The question was asked about what I meant by "vertical grain". I mean the grain lines as observed from the end of the spar with the spar laid flat should go up and down -vertically. Since I had planned to use 3/4" fir spars from the beginning of the project, I laid my wing jig out to accommodate this using the centerlines of the 1" spars as shown on the plans. Just changed the truss form of the spar to make this work. On another subject, I read that there was another question about alternative engines. I have elected to use an EA 82 Turbo Charged Subaru engine because of the altitude here in our valley, we have 14,000 foot mountains to the west and 11,000 foot mountians to the east. The only way out is over these mountains or down the canyon toward Canon City about 60 miles away. The engine is running fine, however I haven't flown the plane yet, still finishing the cowlings and wing struts. I will be happy to answer as best I can any questions you may have about the engine installation. The plane from the firewall back is pure Pietenpol, complete with the Jenny type gear and spoked wheels. I hope that Bernard Pietenpol doesn't object, after all it is an automobile engine! John Dilatush dilatush(at)amigo.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 02/16/01
Date: Feb 17, 2001
Jim and list, In an effort to combat boredom and self educate, I did some research and tests with Sitka alternatives. You can see my report on my website: http://roberthaines.tripod.com. Robert Haines Murphysboro, Illinois ******** How does white pine compare to spruce or fir as regards strength? As I recall fir is somewhat heavier but is correspondingly stronger. Is pine stronger/weaker? how about weight? TIA James Fuller ******* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars
Date: Feb 17, 2001
I also got my spar stock. Thy were als very patient in letting me go thru their stock and picking out the pieces I wanted. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-list: wing spars > > > --- John or Jean Dilatush wrote: > > Dilatush" > > > > Jeff: > > > > I am just finishing my Piet an used 3/4" vertical > > grain fir spars. > > After researching costs, and using the numbers > > published by the Western > > Wood Association, it appears that fir is about 25% > > stronger than sitka > > spruce however has also about 25% more weight. So > > if Mr. Pietenpol > > specified 1" spars (routed out to 1/2" thick") and > > you would use the > > 3/4" fir, I think that you will end up with more > > than enough strength. > > The cost difference is well worth the extra 2 to 4 > > lbs per spar penalty. > > I believe that I was quoted about 4 years ago > > $650.00 for spruce with > > shipping and was able to get the fir in Denver for > > about $250.00! I > > think you can find a saving of the weight someplace > > else in the plane! > > Other builders seem to have come to the same > > conclusion. > > > > John Dilatush dilatush(at)amigo.net > there is one other difference that you are missing. I > bought spruce that is not aircraft certified, but the > quality is the same. I bought mine from McCormick > Lumber Madison Wi for $375.00. they stock it for boat > building. Out of the 5 boards I received from them > only one was not good enough for a spar. the others > were well above the specs called out for aircraft > certified. > del-wisconsin > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mckellars" <mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net>
Subject: Pietenpol list
Date: Feb 17, 2001
Does anyone know if there are any differences in the GN-1 ribs and the Pietenpol ribs? Mark McKellar ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2001
From: Don Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: "How To" articles on the web
To the Piet group - (especially the new folks) - To answer some of the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about building a Pietenpol - Look up Ron Alexander's Sportair Workshop articles. These are actually reprints of articles that have appeared in Sport Aviation from time to time in the past several years. Included are: Aircraft Hardware - What you need to know Aircraft Wood - Part One Building an aluminum airplane Building a composite airplane Electrical system simplified Fabric covering - Common problems Painting - solving the mystery Rules and Regulations of airplane building These are all free (the best price) by clicking up http://www.sportair.com Ron's article on wood goes into some discussion about spruce and fir and their attributes. Good stuff, but pretty basic. Still, it gives all of us a platform from which to start. Try it, it's worth every penny! Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol list
Date: Feb 18, 2001
> >Does anyone know if there are any differences in the GN-1 ribs and the Pietenpol ribs? Mark McKellar< Yes there are. I do not know the type airfoil in the GN-1, but I do know that the Piet rib has a concave undersurface & the GN-! does not. Mike B Piet N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)techplus.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol list
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Sorry Mike, but the GN-1 has under camber, maybe not as pronounced as the Pietenpol rib, but it is there. The one major difference I came across is the aileron hinge design. The GN-1 has the aileron spar vertical and parallel to the rear spar and uses hinges in the vertical center of the spars. This makes a gap, that in my opinion is ugly. The gap is sealed by a fabric strip crossing through the hinge line from the top surface on one side to the under surface on the other. The original Pietenpol aireron hinge design with the slanted aileron spar makes a lot of sense. Bernard was a clever man! The other differences are in spar spacing and the direction of the diagonals in the rib truss. Also the Pietenpol lends itself to repositioning the wing as the fasteners centerline is across the fuselage. the GN-1 fittings place the fastener centerlines parallel to the fuse fixing the wing in the position it was designed. This is okay as long as you stay with the Continental power. The Pietenpol is better suited to engine changes. The GN and the Piet look the same, but are different airplanes. I have had the pleasure of flying in both and they both are a lot of fun. It doesn't cost a lot to buy both sets of plans and study them well. You might find things you like in both. John Mc >Does anyone know if there are any differences in the GN-1 ribs and the > Pietenpol ribs? Mark McKellar< > > Yes there are. I do not know the type airfoil in the GN-1, but I do know > that the Piet rib has a concave undersurface & the GN-! does not. > > Mike B Piet N 687MB ( Mr Sam ) > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Gillespie" <dickmarg(at)peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol list
Date: Feb 18, 2001
The GN-1 does have a concave undersurface. DickG. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RatHat(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Subject: Re: "How To" articles on the web
please unsubscribe me from this bulk mailing list....thank you in advance. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Subject: Dream
Had a dream the other night that I got socked in while Piet flying. Haven't flown A-I since the days of the A-N Range. I was thinking after I woke that it would sure be nice to have a Turn and Bank on the Piet panel. Question # 1. Does the Piet have enough speed to generate 2 " vacuum with the small venturi? Question # 2. Do any of you have a vacuum T & B and would like to get some CASH for it at a price a good bit lower than those modern catalog prices. Corky, the poor boy in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Dream
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Corky,, that story was so good that I'd send ya a venturi if I had one. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dream Had a dream the other night that I got socked in while Piet flying. Haven't flown A-I since the days of the A-N Range. I was thinking after I woke that it would sure be nice to have a Turn and Bank on the Piet panel. Question # 1. Does the Piet have enough speed to generate 2 " vacuum with the small venturi? Question # 2. Do any of you have a vacuum T & B and would like to get some CASH for it at a price a good bit lower than those modern catalog prices. Corky, the poor boy in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Dream
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Check out the Fly Mart at Sun n Fun or the salvage booths. There should be plenty of cheap one there. Lots of good bargains to be had. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dream > > Corky,, that story was so good that I'd send ya a venturi if I had one. > Carl > > Please visit my website at > www.megsinet.net/skycarl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > Isablcorky(at)aol.com > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:50 PM > To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dream > > > Had a dream the other night that I got socked in while Piet flying. Haven't > flown A-I since the days of the A-N Range. I was thinking after I woke that > it would sure be nice to have a Turn and Bank on the Piet panel. > Question # 1. Does the Piet have enough speed to generate 2 " vacuum with > the > small venturi? > Question # 2. Do any of you have a vacuum T & B and would like to get some > CASH for it at a price a good bit lower than those modern catalog prices. > Corky, the poor boy in La > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Piet T&B
Date: Feb 18, 2001
> > it would sure be nice to have a Turn and Bank on the Piet panel. > Question # 1. Does the Piet have enough speed to generate 2 " vacuum with the > small venturi? I have a vacuum T&B on my Piet. The venturi in mounted on the underside of the center section,just aft of the right cabane strut. I works great. Mike B Piet N687 MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Subject: Re: Dream
Thanks Carl, But I have a venturi and Joe C of Zion has a T & B he says cheap so he who asks sometimes receives. Corky, ready for La IFR, KCS, ICRR, and Mo Pac with UP. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Subject: Re: Piet T&B
Thanks Mr Sam, I'll be back later when I'm ready to install my venturi. Have you ever had to depend on it to stay straight and level? Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: vertical grain
Date: Feb 18, 2001
Not trying to be a know it all, but you mean to say the boards were "quarter sawed" as opposed to "plain sawed". Right? Robert Haines Southern Illinois ***** The question was asked about what I meant by "vertical grain". I mean the grain lines as observed from the end of the spar with the spar laid flat should go up and down -vertically. ***** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2001
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "How To" articles on the web
Bulky? Ha! This is the less one in aviation. Saludos Gary Gower --- RatHat(at)aol.com wrote: > > please unsubscribe me from this bulk mailing > list....thank you in advance. > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John or Jean Dilatush" <Dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: vertical grain
Date: Feb 19, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: vertical grain > > Not trying to be a know it all, but you mean to say the boards were > "quarter sawed" as opposed to "plain sawed". > > Right? > > > Robert Haines > Southern Illinois > Robert: Yeah, I guess you're right! John > ***** > The question was asked about what I meant by "vertical grain". I mean > the grain lines as observed from the end of the spar with the spar > laid > flat should go up and down -vertically. > ***** > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John or Jean Dilatush" <Dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
Date: Feb 19, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernard Lefebvre" <napo(at)sympatico.ca> Subject: question re: your pietenpol > Hi! My name is Bernie Lefebvre, I live in Val d'Or, Quebec. I've been > working on my Pietenpol project for the past year or so. I'm just about > to start on the landing gear. I'm opting for the spoked wheels and would > like any comments and or pointers on your part regarding the > traditionnal landing gear you have installed on your piet. > Thanks for your input. > Happy flying! > Bernie P. Lefebvre > napo(at)sympatico.ca > Bernie: The plans for the Piet shown in the 1932 "Flying and Glider Manual" have the wooden (Jenny Type) landing gear shown on page 17. I would suggest that you contact the EAA for all the copies of this series of reprints - 1929 to 1933. These show many details of how it was done "back in the good old days". I believe that Mr. Pientenpol originally used surplus wheels from WW1 aircraft, but of course these are no longer available so we have to make our own reproductions. I used 18" aluminum motorcycle rims, then made up some 6" hubs and laced them up. The reason for making your own hubs is (I am told) that a normal motorcyle wheel and hub sometimes fail under a side loading. I land in a drift more often than straight! Michael Cuy, Howard Henderson and Frank Pavliga are among others that have built their own wheels. I believe that the old BPA newsletters have shown details of these hubs. Perhaps Grant McLaren might be able to send you volumes of these newletters for a reasonable charge. If you want to maintain authenticity, use 19" rims. Grant McLaren might be reached at gmclaren(at)aol.com Mike Cuy at Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov Hope this helps John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Newsletter Copies
From: "Mike Bell" <mbell(at)sctcorp.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2001
02/19/2001 12:10:16 PM I'm doing a one time run of the full set of BPA Newsletters. The price for nearly 400 pages of action packed and thrilling tips on building and flying one of the slowest planes in the sky will be, $40.00. This covers Priority Mail shipping in the continental US. All others, please respond with your mailing address and I'll get you your cost with the extra shipping. Included in this price is the cost of a copy to go to the EAA Library. Please send to: Mike Bell 106 Woodcrest Lane Gaston, SC 29053 I'll wait about three weeks for responses and will hold checks until they're all in and I order the copies. Please thank Larry Williams and John Fay, who have both supplied a full set of newsletters to be copied. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hofmann" <johnh(at)kencook.com>
Subject: Re: Cost for Newsletter Reprints
Date: Feb 19, 2001
Thanks Mike, The CD will soon follow (I hope). Anyone with video, photos or anecdotal information they would like to add to the CD let me know and I will be happy to accomodate. Who knows, this may even be a useful project. Any suggestions or questions feel free to contact me directly. -john- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Newsletter Copies
Thanks for providing this service. I have a full set (I think) but others definitely need them. Chris Bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2001
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
From: "d. dale johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com>
buy your rims first either 36 or 40 spokes . 36 are more common wheels .then build your hubs to match . i built hubs first then had a hard time finding rims to match. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)gate.net>
Subject: Re: question concerning the stiff leg gear
Date: Feb 19, 2001
I have the stiff leg gear with 21" spoked wheels. My references were the landing gear drawing in the "Flying and Glider Manual and the old BPA article on Howard Hendersons wheels. One caution about the Flying and Glider drawing, don't use the dimensions for the steel attachment plates for the lower part of the gear. It seems that every gear is different even from the same plan. Build the wooden "vee" strut assemblies, THEN make a cardboard pattern directly from the struts and use that for a pattern to cut your steel. Good Luck Lou Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: John or Jean Dilatush <Dilatush(at)amigo.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question re: your pietenpol > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bernard Lefebvre" <napo(at)sympatico.ca> > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 8:47 AM > Subject: question re: your pietenpol > > > > Hi! My name is Bernie Lefebvre, I live in Val d'Or, Quebec. I've been > > working on my Pietenpol project for the past year or so. I'm just about > > to start on the landing gear. I'm opting for the spoked wheels and would > > like any comments and or pointers on your part regarding the > > traditionnal landing gear you have installed on your piet. > > Thanks for your input. > > Happy flying! > > Bernie P. Lefebvre > > napo(at)sympatico.ca > > > > Bernie: > The plans for the Piet shown in the 1932 "Flying and Glider Manual" have the > wooden (Jenny Type) landing gear shown on page 17. I would suggest that you > contact the EAA for all the copies of this series of reprints - 1929 to > 1933. These show many details of how it was done "back in the good old > days". > > I believe that Mr. Pientenpol originally used surplus wheels from WW1 > aircraft, but of course these are no longer available so we have to make our > own reproductions. I used 18" aluminum motorcycle rims, then made up some > 6" hubs and laced them up. The reason for making your own hubs is (I am > told) that a normal motorcyle wheel and hub sometimes fail under a side > loading. I land in a drift more often than straight! Michael Cuy, Howard > Henderson and Frank Pavliga are among others that have built their own > wheels. I believe that the old BPA newsletters have shown details of these > hubs. Perhaps Grant McLaren might be able to send you volumes of these > newletters for a reasonable charge. If you want to maintain authenticity, > use 19" rims. > > Grant McLaren might be reached at gmclaren(at)aol.com > Mike Cuy at Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov > > Hope this helps > John > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dmott9(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2001
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Newsletter Copies
Ummm, who owns the copyright on this newsletter ? BPA ? It would be a great project to take on, to have this bound or at least put in spiral binder. I'm interested in this project. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Newsletter Copies
To my knowledge the info does not have a copy right. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2001
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
This is a good suggestion from Dale. Find a matching set of rims BEFORE you fabricate the hubs. When Dale and I went through this excersize the hubs were built according to Howard Henderson's plans as published in the March, 1990 issue of Kitplanes. These plans call for flanges to be drilled for 40 spokes. We then went to the motorcycle salvage yard to buy rims. After 3 or 4 hours of searching we did find a matching set of 40 spoke rims but discovered that 36 spoke rims are far more common. We found racks of brand new, still in the wrapper, rims drilled for 36 holes. We finally found the needed rims on the larger Kawasaki or Goldwing motorcycles. Next time we'll look for rims prior to fabricating hubs. Greg Cardinal >>> "d. dale johnson" 02/19 4:42 PM >>> buy your rims first either 36 or 40 spokes . 36 are more common wheels .then build your hubs to match . i built hubs first then had a hard time finding rims to match. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John or Jean Dilatush" <Dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
Date: Feb 20, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: question re: your pietenpol > > This is a good suggestion from Dale. Find a matching set of rims BEFORE you fabricate the hubs. When Dale and I went through this excersize the hubs were built according to Howard Henderson's plans as published in the March, 1990 issue of Kitplanes. These plans call for flanges to be drilled for 40 spokes. We then went to the motorcycle salvage yard to buy rims. After 3 or 4 hours of searching we did find a matching set of 40 spoke rims but discovered that 36 spoke rims are far more common. We found racks of brand new, still in the wrapper, rims drilled for 36 holes. We finally found the needed rims on the larger Kawasaki or Goldwing motorcycles. > Next time we'll look for rims prior to fabricating hubs. > > Greg Cardinal > > >>> "d. dale johnson" 02/19 4:42 PM >>> > > buy your rims first either 36 or 40 spokes . 36 are more common wheels > .then build your hubs to match . i built hubs first then had a hard time > finding rims to match. > > To Greg and others building Pietenpols: I forgot to mention that if you are planning on using brakes, you should use the cross spoke pattern as on a motorcycle -- otherwise use the pattern as the Henderson information. John > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SkykingN99(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
Hello to all list members, I am new to the list and not yet a builder, however after seeing the first special on the Piet I am impressed and curious. I am presently in the early part of the research stages and would like to learn more before actually making the commitment to such a project. Any information you can provide that would help with the decision to take on a build project is helpful. Things like pricing, time required in build and skill levels require to take on such a project problems, pitfalls and ultimately the all important How to get started. I am sure your experiences have left you with a list of things you wouldn't have or should have done if you had it to do all over. Anything you would be interested in sharing would be greatly appreciated. Right now I would love to build and I am pretty certain I want it to be a Piet, if any at all. Something about go back to the golden age of aviation really intrigues me and has captured my imagination. Thanks for you input ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Borodent(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
You can get a very nice feeling for the project by 1) search Pietenpol 2) click on Pietenpol aircamper and sky scout family/buisness aircraft 3) on left click on airplane photos how to build your plane ( by the way I can remember watching skyking on tv as an infant ) Henry Williams ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: question re: your pietenpol
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Hello and welcome to the"everything you ever wanted to know about the Pietenpol" list. If it's about the piet, it's here. What a great compilation of people for information. I would suggest going into the piet archives in matronics and check out different subjects. That will start you out with a real wealth of info. From one sky to another, Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of SkykingN99(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: question re: your pietenpol Hello to all list members, I am new to the list and not yet a builder, however after seeing the first special on the Piet I am impressed and curious. I am presently in the early part of the research stages and would like to learn more before actually making the commitment to such a project. Any information you can provide that would help with the decision to take on a build project is helpful. Things like pricing, time required in build and skill levels require to take on such a project problems, pitfalls and ultimately the all important How to get started. I am sure your experiences have left you with a list of things you wouldn't have or should have done if you had it to do all over. Anything you would be interested in sharing would be greatly appreciated. Right now I would love to build and I am pretty certain I want it to be a Piet, if any at all. Something about go back to the golden age of aviation really intrigues me and has captured my imagination. Thanks for you input ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Boyd" <pietenpol41(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: center section/wing panel gap
Date: Feb 20, 2001
It appears that after joining the wing panels to the center section (three piece wing) there will be a gap of about 2 inches. What have folks been using to cover the gap and how is it held in place? Thanks, Dave Boyd, Champaign,IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2001
From: "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: center section/wing panel gap
David, The best looking one that I've seen is a copy of one from a Piper Vagabond. I'll try to describe it. Picture the rib shape from the side. A simple piece of aluminum covers the complete airfoil. At the trailing edge, on the bottom, the metal extends forward about 4 inches, and overlaps the piece coming from the leading edge. At this connection, inside, there are two tabs that stick upright inside the gap. One has a nylock type nut, and one has a long adjustment screw. There is an oval hole exactly on the trailing edge for a screwdriver to fit thru. You line up the adjustment screw with the nylock nut and adjust the assembly to a snug fit. Very smooth, without any of those ugly pinched screw fittings that always rust and look bumpy. Find any of the older Piper Cub type planes and you will most likely find a good example of what I've described. Cheers, Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: center section/wing panel gap
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Except for the fact that going across the bottom of the wing you will not be able to follow the undercamber in the airfoil. I used what you described and did something that looks cool (to me at least) I used a piece of aluminum as you described but punched a pair of holes 2 inches apart ever 10 inches or so, then using 1/8" bungee cord, laced from the front to the rear and tied off at the trailing edge. to the uninitiated they think that I sewed my wing panels together. Other solutions include screws into small blocks mounted on the ribs, or screwing into the rib itself. Just another little detail left to the builder... Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Warren D. Shoun Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section/wing panel gap David, The best looking one that I've seen is a copy of one from a Piper Vagabond. I'll try to describe it. Picture the rib shape from the side. A simple piece of aluminum covers the complete airfoil. At the trailing edge, on the bottom, the metal extends forward about 4 inches, and overlaps the piece coming from the leading edge. At this connection, inside, there are two tabs that stick upright inside the gap. One has a nylock type nut, and one has a long adjustment screw. There is an oval hole exactly on the trailing edge for a screwdriver to fit thru. You line up the adjustment screw with the nylock nut and adjust the assembly to a snug fit. Very smooth, without any of those ugly pinched screw fittings that always rust and look bumpy. Find any of the older Piper Cub type planes and you will most likely find a good example of what I've described. Cheers, Warren ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: "How To" articles on the web
scroll down under Pietenpol messages to where it says Subscribe. You can also use this to Unsubscribe. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: center section/wing panel gap
I've just been through this thought process. Was too embarrased to pose my thinking on the net. SO, this was my conclusion. I have 2 inches of 1/16 mah plywood on all 4 butt ribs. Flush on gap sides. I have planned to epoxy strips of 2024 alum 1 1/2 inch wide on the under sides of the plywood, fore and aft, top and bottom. When time comes to install the fairing I need only to drill and screw with flatest head stainless. Hope this works as I'm only a hobiest and not a craftsman. Thought at first about installing nut plates under plywood but would never find them and or if I drilled the fairing before covering, it wouldn't work. If anyone has a better solution keep the thoughts moving. Corky in beautiful La. 72 today ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: Dream
Corky, That was no dream, that was a nightmare. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: Dream
Tom, Are you talking about the Turn & Bank or the latest gem of wisdom about fairing the wing gaps? Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: Dream
Corky, The nightmare I had in mind was finding yourself in an IFR situation without instruments. The idea of some kind of tabs to attach the fairing sounds good. I rebuilt a Cub once and as I recall the fairing was attached to the aluminum ribs with sheet metal screws. When you remove the fairing for inspection it's hard to line up the holes again and after a while you end up with too many holes in the ribs. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: wing gap
Date: Feb 20, 2001
> "It appears that after joining the wing panels to the center section (three piece wing) there will be a gap of about 2 inches. What have folks been using to cover the gap and how is it held in place? Thanks, Dave Boyd, Champaign,IL" Aluminum fairings top & bottom will do the trick. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Re: wing gap
In a message dated 2/20/01 6:08:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net writes: > "It appears that after joining the wing panels to the center section > (three > piece wing) there will be a gap of about 2 inches. What have folks been > using to cover the gap and how is it held in place? Thanks, Dave Boyd, > Champaign,IL" > > > Aluminum fairings top & bottom will David, I used small pan head screws 1/4" long into the rib cap strips and it has held very well. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Feb 20, 2001
Subject: Cleveland wheels
Can anyone tell me if 6" X 6" Cleveland wheels are all basically the same. The ones listed in the big bucks cataloges are 18 lbs for the aluminum set and 16 lbs for the Magnesium with the brakes. I thought I would look for a used set at Sun & Fun in April . Do I need to be careful , I mean did they make any of the older ones excessively heavy or are they all about the same. I'm almost finished with my 1933 style split gear with bolt- on Cleveland alloy axels and I'm trying to duplicate the wheel/ tire size of the plans . If anyone knows of a nice pair for sale I,m lookin. Thanks in advance. Ed Grentzer Palm Harbor Fl. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Cleveland wheels
Don't buy magnesium because they corrode real bad. Look in a univair or Aircraft Spruce catolog for the types of 6 by 6 wheels. You want the ones that use the brakes with the smallest pads since any excess pad will just let you nose over that much easier. Try ebay for hit and miss. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2001
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: leadng edge 8-32 bolts
I am installing the leading edge on my one piece wing and was wondering the purpose of all of those bolts called out. It seems like a good glue surface and then the fabric clamps it into place. was it because bernard didn't trust the glue that he had or is there an underlying purpose that I can't see. thanks del Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: wheels
Date: Feb 21, 2001
Ed, In my hometown airport, there is a guy that strips old 150s after they get wrecked by the SIU college students. His large hanger looks like a warehouse. I plan to check with him for items like that. What you may want to do is check you local airports for guys that do the same thing. Robert Haines Murphysboro, Illinois ****** Can anyone tell me if 6" X 6" Cleveland wheels are all basically the same. The ones listed in the big bucks cataloges are 18 lbs for the aluminum set and 16 lbs for the Magnesium with the brakes. I thought I would look for a used set at Sun & Fun in April . Do I need to be careful , I mean did they make any of the older ones excessively heavy or are they all about the same. I'm almost finished with my 1933 style split gear with bolt- on Cleveland alloy axels and I'm trying to duplicate the wheel/ tire size of the plans . If anyone knows of a nice pair for sale I,m lookin. Thanks in advance. Ed Grentzer Palm Harbor Fl. ******* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 2001
Subject: Re: wheels
In a message dated 2/21/01 6:37:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com writes: > Can anyone tell me if 6" X 6" Cleveland wheels are all basically the > same. The ones listed in the big bucks cataloges are 18 lbs for the > aluminum set and 16 lbs for the Magnesium with the brakes. I thought I > would look for a used set at Sun & Fun in April . Do I need to be > careful , I mean did they make any of the older ones excessively heavy > or are they all about the same. I'm almost finished with my 1933 style > split gear with bolt- on Cleveland alloy axels and I'm trying to > duplicate the wheel/ tire size of the plans . If anyone knows of a nice > pair for sale I,m lookin. Thanks in advance. > > Ed Grentzer > Palm Harbor Fl. > > Ed, On my second aircamper I used old goodyear wheels, removed all the brake stuff and mounted 8.00 X 6 four ply tires from Wicks. This makes a nice light (13 lbs per side) and inexpensive wheel assembly which is close (not exact) to the plan size. It is the same overall size as on the two corvair aircraft built by BHP and a good many earlier ones. The plan actually calls for a 19X9 (or spoke type as the option) air wheel which these days would require a larger much heavier more rigid 6 ply tire. I know of one aircamper with these larger tires and it looks good but it is heavy. The old Good year wheels are available because of some owners of older aircraft prefering the cleveland brake which has cheaper parts. This is just one way to do the task, I'm sure there are a host of others. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 2001
Subject: Re: leadng edge 8-32 bolts
In a message dated 2/21/01 4:58:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com writes: > I am installing the leading edge on my one piece wing > and was wondering the purpose of all of those bolts > called out. It seems like a good glue surface and then > the fabric clamps it into place. was it because > bernard didn't trust the glue that he had or is there > an underlying purpose that I can't see. > thanks > del > > Del, On the wings I have built, I found that bolts were easier for me than trying to get all 29 glue joints clamped and have confidence that none would move while the glue was setting. This could have also been quite a task with short pot life glues such as casein or other older material, however, in my opinion it could be done. The more I build and fly, the more amazed I am at how well they go together and perform just as drawn accounting for some substitutions for things which are not avilable any more. The design and methods implied on the plans just seem to be right (at least for me). Doug Byrant Wichita Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ED GRENTZER" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wheels
Date: Feb 21, 2001
Thanks Robert I'll give that a try there are quite a few small aiports around here. Ed Grentzer >From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: wheels >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:34:03 > > > >Ed, > >In my hometown airport, there is a guy that strips old 150s after they get >wrecked by the SIU college students. His large hanger looks like a >warehouse. I plan to check with him for items like that. What you may >want >to do is check you local airports for guys that do the same thing. > >Robert Haines >Murphysboro, Illinois > > >****** >Can anyone tell me if 6" X 6" Cleveland wheels are all basically the >same. The ones listed in the big bucks cataloges are 18 lbs for the >aluminum set and 16 lbs for the Magnesium with the brakes. I thought I >would look for a used set at Sun & Fun in April . Do I need to be >careful , I mean did they make any of the older ones excessively heavy >or are they all about the same. I'm almost finished with my 1933 style >split gear with bolt- on Cleveland alloy axels and I'm trying to >duplicate the wheel/ tire size of the plans . If anyone knows of a nice >pair for sale I,m lookin. Thanks in advance. > > Ed Grentzer > Palm Harbor Fl. > >******* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: wheels
Ed, If you do not need the brake stuff, I can probably set you up with a set of 6 by 6 wheels and they will probably have the bearings too. The price will be really low. Chris Bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hill" <jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Shirts
Date: Feb 21, 2001
I have seen some excellent Pietenpol T-shirts around. Last time I checked on the web site they were sold out. Does anybody know where else they may be available? Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: leadng edge 8-32 bolts
Date: Feb 21, 2001
I used stainless wood screws instead. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: leadng edge 8-32 bolts > > I am installing the leading edge on my one piece wing > and was wondering the purpose of all of those bolts > called out. It seems like a good glue surface and then > the fabric clamps it into place. was it because > bernard didn't trust the glue that he had or is there > an underlying purpose that I can't see. > thanks > del > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodger & Betty Childs" <childsway@indian-creek.net>
Subject: Leading Edge 8-32 bolts
Date: Feb 21, 2001
Del, We are building the one piece wing and have installed the L.E. in one piece as well. One person, three 3" c-clamps, and two bungie cords (24" long), 28 1 1/2" drywall screws and T-88 glue was all it took to install the L.E. . Oh, yes, and two 36" 3/16" wood dowels. The drywall screws are to hold the L. E. in place while the glue drys and are then removed. The holes are opened up to 3/16" and the wood dowels are glued in place. It makes a neat arrangement. The L. E. can be solid or a groove cut on the backside to lighten it up. This is what we did and the weight is reduced about by half over the solid L. E. The L.E. back side was cut out on the radial arm saw to a "U" shaped groove. This was done first and then they were scarfed together to a 30 foot length. The front side was rough cut next, two triangular pieces being removed, and will be finished shaped now that it is installed on the wing. A set of wooden plugs were cut, one for each rib station, out of 3/4" thick cedar and shaped to fit in the back side of the L.E. . The curved shape was taken from the end of the L. E. so that the curved shape of each would match. These plugs were glued at each rib station along the L. E. back side. Now the neat part, dry attaching the L. E. to the wing. Place one c-clamp at the end rib down low and about 2" back from the front of the blunt end of the rib so that the back or closed end of the c-clamp is jutting forward to form a ledge for the L. E. to set on. Lightly attach the clamp. Go about 1/3 of the way down the wing and attach another c-clamp and the third one about 2/3 of the way down. Clamp them in the same way to provide a little ledge for the L. E. Lay the L. E. on the upper surface of the wing with the front up. Place the L. E. close to the edge yet keep it from slipping off and attach the bungie cords at the 1/3 and 2/3 of the wing, looping it over the L. E. Now you can slide the L. E. into position without dropping it. Adjust the L. E. so that you have excess at each end of the wing. Drill a clearance hole in the L. E. ONLY, at the end rib station first and then drill a smaller hole in the front of the rib to keep from cracking the wooden brace. Then install a drywall screw in place to hold the L. E. on. In this fashion, all the wood screws are attached to the L. E. Back out all of the screws and start gluing from one end and work to the other. The L. E. is simply pulled out so that the glue can be applied between the rib and the L. E. at each station. The screws are set lightly and when the glue is dry, will release with a firm twist of the screw driver. Then drill out the screw holes to 3/16", cut the dowels to length and glue them in place. All in all, a neat installation. Rodger Childs One piece wing 95% complete ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R deCosta" <rdecost1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Shirts
Date: Feb 22, 2001
www.aircamper.org has t-shirts, mugs, mouspads and sweatshirts. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hill <jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Shirts > > I have seen some excellent Pietenpol T-shirts around. Last time I checked > on the web site they were sold out. Does anybody know where else they may be > available? > Jeff > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2001
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: drag wires
I'd like to hear some input on what you people have used for drag wires. the hard wire called out in the plans from the hardware store, cable(what size), or threaded rods thanks much for the input onthe leading edge. I think I'll leave it without bolts or screws unless someone comes up with a good reason to add them. del Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2001
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: drag wires
We used 1/8" 7X19 cable. If I were doing it over I would use 1X19 cable. The 7X19 has a lot of stretch to it. I doubt that it will be an issue though.... Greg Cardinal >>> del magsam 02/22 10:36 AM >>> I'd like to hear some input on what you people have used for drag wires. the hard wire called out in the plans from the hardware store, cable(what size), or threaded rods thanks much for the input onthe leading edge. I think I'll leave it without bolts or screws unless someone comes up with a good reason to add them. del Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: covering fabric
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Covering is just around the corner, and I was looking through the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Both PolyFiber and Ceconite have their own pages, but then they have a "generic" fabric for about 1/2 the price. Normally I wouldn't bother , but it's just the right width for the wings, and I was wondering if anyone used it, and how the quality was. Are most of the Piets flying using the light (1.7/1.8 oz) fabric? thanks walt ----------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: covering fabric
Date: Feb 22, 2001
I used the generic fabric just as if it were certified following the Polyfiber process and manual. No problems so far. I will use it again. btw it was the 1.8 oz Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: covering fabric Covering is just around the corner, and I was looking through the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Both PolyFiber and Ceconite have their own pages, but then they have a "generic" fabric for about 1/2 the price. Normally I wouldn't bother , but it's just the right width for the wings, and I was wondering if anyone used it, and how the quality was. Are most of the Piets flying using the light (1.7/1.8 oz) fabric? thanks walt ----------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Re: covering fabric
From: "d. dale johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com>
1.7 oz fabric is just right for the Pete. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mckellars" <mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net>
Subject: metal fittings
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Just got my plans today from D.H.P. .I was looking at metal fittings.Are all of these made from aircraft grade steel or do some builders use generic steel.I've got alot to learn. Mark McKellar ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Re: metal fittings
Mark, If I were at your period of construction I would buy all four of Tony's books. Read every word in all of them, maybe twice, THEN order some materials and start your building. It would have been less worry to me had I read and understood some of those little critical problems. It's all there, all you need to do is read, study it, reread and read it again. It's a lot more fun building with confidence and you can gain that from those volumnes. Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: metal fittings
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Mark, There's no reason not to use 4130 (aircraft steel). It's available from many places , and not really expensive. Aircraft Spruce , Dillsburg Aeroplane Works, in Pa. If you're new to this, go to Aircraft Spruces website and you can click to get a free catalog ( I've gotten 3 so far) Lots of great reading. walt ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mckellars" <mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings > > Just got my plans today from D.H.P. .I was looking at metal fittings.Are > all of these made from aircraft grade steel or do some builders use > generic steel.I've got alot to learn. Mark McKellar > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mckellars" <mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net>
Subject: Re: metal fittings
Date: Feb 22, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings > > Mark, > If I were at your period of construction I would buy all four of Tony's > books. Read every word in all of them, maybe twice, THEN order some materials > and start your building. It would have been less worry to me had I read and > understood some of those little critical problems. It's all there, all you > need to do is read, study it, reread and read it again. It's a lot more fun > building with confidence and you can gain that from those volumnes. > Corky in La > > > Corky, Thanks for the advice. How do I get these books? Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Re: metal fittings
Mark, I don't know where to get them as I got mine with a project from Joe C. His e mail is fishin(at)wwa.com. Give him a call Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: weather outside the airplane factory
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Just came out of the airplane factory (basement) , and stepped into a you are. If you like snow, It's beautiful, and comming down fast. walt ----------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: metal fittings
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Mark, The Tony Bingelis books are available thru the eaa. You can order from their web site at www.eaa.com. Corky was right on the money with that advice, you will gain a ton of knowledge that will help thru every step of any homebuilt. Carl Please visit my website at www.megsinet.net/skycarl -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mckellars Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings > > Mark, > If I were at your period of construction I would buy all four of Tony's > books. Read every word in all of them, maybe twice, THEN order some materials > and start your building. It would have been less worry to me had I read and > understood some of those little critical problems. It's all there, all you > need to do is read, study it, reread and read it again. It's a lot more fun > building with confidence and you can gain that from those volumnes. > Corky in La > > > Corky, Thanks for the advice. How do I get these books? Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mckellars" <mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net>
Subject: Re: metal fittings
Date: Feb 22, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings > > Mark, The Tony Bingelis books are available thru the eaa. You can order from > their web site at www.eaa.com. > Corky was right on the money with that advice, you will gain a ton of > knowledge that will help thru every step of any homebuilt. > Carl > > Please visit my website at > www.megsinet.net/skycarl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mckellars > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 6:53 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:13 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings > > > > > > Mark, > > If I were at your period of construction I would buy all four of Tony's > > books. Read every word in all of them, maybe twice, THEN order some > materials > > and start your building. It would have been less worry to me had I read > and > > understood some of those little critical problems. It's all there, all you > > need to do is read, study it, reread and read it again. It's a lot more > fun > > building with confidence and you can gain that from those volumnes. > > Corky in La > > > > > > Corky, Thanks for the advice. How do I get these books? > Mark > > > > > > > Thanks Carl I'll look into getting these. Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Re: metal fittings
From: "d. dale johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com>
metal fittings use 4130 steel. there is a lot of fittings that are to short. this makes it hard to get bolts in. some that i can think of hand are wing fittings for the drag and antidrag cables. the landing gear brackets are to short making it hard to get strut bolts in . the lower landing gear brackets are all wrong if you are building the long fuselage. the engine brackets should be longer. all the brackets for the tail feathers should be longer. this all adds weight if i were to do it again i would go to the next size smaller. this plane is really over built. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Re: covering fabric
In a message dated 2/22/01 1:55:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: > Covering is just around the corner, and I was looking through the Aircraft > Spruce catalog. Both PolyFiber and Ceconite have their own pages, but then > they have a "generic" fabric for about 1/2 the price. Normally I wouldn't > bother , but it's just the right width for the wings, and I was wondering if > anyone used it, and how the quality was. > Are most of the Piets flying using the light (1.7/1.8 oz) fabric? > thanks > walt > Walt, I use the 2.7 oz on all my Piet work and like it. It is made by Dupont. Doug Bryant ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Re: metal fittings
In a message dated 2/22/01 2:54:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net writes: > Just got my plans today from D.H.P. .I was looking at metal fittings.Are > all of these made from aircraft grade steel or do some builders use > generic steel.I've got alot to learn. Mark McKellar > > > Mark, I use low carbon (1020) cold rolled steel sheet from a local fabricator here in Wichita and have all the parts possible sheared to strips. For three ship sets I had them also sheared to length. Only even gages are available in this part of the country so for 13 ga I use 12 ga. the rest is in even gages anyway. For parts with profile shape, I had three sets plasma cut and then made three more sets by stacking sheared rectangle plates welding the stack at 2 opposite unused corners then drill, saw, grind some shape, and by then the stack is apart and they all match. I think ithis method is just as easy as working with the plasma cut parts. I am building a scout now . I believe there are some companies that sell steel parts complete, but have heard they are kind of expensive. I make all mine as close to the plans as I can and they all work and fit great. For parts made of tubing I use 4130 form Spruce because it's easy to get. I use .065 wall for landing gear strut. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2001
Subject: Corvair cowling nose bowl
Gentlemen, I need to borrow the mold or come up with a splash (fiber glass layup copy) off of the corvair two piece cowling nose bowl as designed by BHP. I saw the original mold in the Pietenpol hanger at Oshkosk up on the deck in the back of the building, but I'm not sure how to borrow that one. Does any one have info on this subject. There are two beautiful corvair powered piets ready for cowlings here in Wichita. Thanks, Doug Bryant ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: EAA Book sale
In april and may, the EAA has their annual book sale. Any book that is in their catalog is half price. The four Bingelis books go for $40 for the set. The only caveat is that the order has to be made through your local EAA chapter using a special order form. I administer this sale for EAA chapter 25 here in Minnesota as part of my treasurer duties. If anyone wants these books or others, including videos, just drop me a note and I will get back to them when the sale info arrives. Delivery would be in early June. Shipping would run about 2 dollars per book. I am sure the eaa.org website has a book catalog on line so check there for the list. Half price is a pretty good deal especially when you see the regular price. Flying and glider manuals for $15 for the whole set!!! Chris Bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
From: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Subject: Metal fittings
Mark: ACS offers 4130 in strips. various withs and thickness. Many of the steel fittings on the Piet are simple strips of steel with simple bends. This will save you much fabrication time. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: metal fittings
From: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Date: Feb 23, 2001
02/23/2001 09:41:59 AM Mark, Tony's books are available through the EAA (www.eaa.org). If you buy all four at once you get a decent price break. You should also consider joining EAA if you haven't already done so; as a member you get access to a lot of online resources, including a searchable tech info area. Also, you get their monthly publication, Sport Aviation, which is both good for tech info & keeping your spirits up as you slog through your project :-). Good luck! Kip Gardner Laboratory Manager, ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Woodflier(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Subject: Re: Drag/antidrag wires
I too wondered about the material for the drag/antidrag wires, and ended up using 11 ga. fence wire from my local farm supply store. It was cheap, is heavier gauge than the 13 ga. hard wire called for in the plans. I had an EAA Technical Counselor check over the first wing panel I built and he said it should be fine - in fact he said, "Bernie would be proud." I did follow his recommendation and redid the wires, allowing about an inch of wire to protrude beyond the nicopress sleeves and then bent that end back over the sleeve. The Tech Counselor said this provided additional resistance to the wire possibly pulling back through the sleeve, unlikely in any case. Bacause the wire comes in rolls, there is a little wavyness to the wires once installed. A little bendin to get the biggest jogs out gives a pretty straight wire. I plan on using 1X19 for the tail and strut bracing. Matt Paxton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ED GRENTZER" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: metal fittings
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Hi Mark and welcome. On the metal fittings make sure you read the section in Tony Bingelas' books on bending across the grain of the steel before you start. I didn't and ended up scrapping my first full set of lift strut fittings!!!!! Not fun, Should have read first, not after. Actually I read the section, I guess it just didn't register. Ed G. >From: "Mckellars" <mckellar(at)bluebonnet.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: metal fittings >Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:56:06 -0600 > > >Just got my plans today from D.H.P. .I was looking at metal fittings.Are >all of these made from aircraft grade steel or do some builders use >generic steel.I've got alot to learn. Mark McKellar > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Re: Drag/antidrag wires
Date: Feb 23, 2001
I assume that you used a turnbuckle to give yourself fine adjustments right? I like the idea of using the solid wire. Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Woodflier(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Drag/antidrag wires I too wondered about the material for the drag/antidrag wires, and ended up using 11 ga. fence wire from my local farm supply store. It was cheap, is heavier gauge than the 13 ga. hard wire called for in the plans. I had an EAA Technical Counselor check over the first wing panel I built and he said it should be fine - in fact he said, "Bernie would be proud." I did follow his recommendation and redid the wires, allowing about an inch of wire to protrude beyond the nicopress sleeves and then bent that end back over the sleeve. The Tech Counselor said this provided additional resistance to the wire possibly pulling back through the sleeve, unlikely in any case. Bacause the wire comes in rolls, there is a little wavyness to the wires once installed. A little bendin to get the biggest jogs out gives a pretty straight wire. I plan on using 1X19 for the tail and strut bracing. Matt Paxton ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2001
From: Christian Bobka <BOBKA(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: EAA Book sale
Kip, It is getting to be the time of year that EAA HQ sends the info out to all the chapters. Last year, they waited til May 8 or so to mail it and the sale ended on May 31. I called them, crying foul, saying that for my chapter, our newsletter deadline is the sixth of each month and how can we notify the chapter membership of the sale if we receive the info so late. In any case, they bent the rules, we put the info in the June newsletter and we sent in the form a month late and they took it with no problem. In the meantime, I will keep a list of guys like you who showed interest and when I receive the info from HQ, I will get back to you. We are looking at at least 14 weeks minimum before you have a book in hand but I think the savings are worth the wait. Other than the Bingelis books, my favorites for a low price are all the Flying and Glider Manuals and the big book on the Golden Age of Air Racing. The items available number in the hundreds....every book or video for half price. Let me know if you are willing to wait. Chris Bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wood?
From: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Date: Feb 23, 2001
02/23/2001 01:28:05 PM Hi Everyone, With all the talk about spars, etc. over the past few days, something that I've wondered about from time to time stirred in the back corners of what's left of my mind (try being a first-time father at age 41 some time). Namely, has anyone ever put together a comprehensive list of wood types & sizes necessary to build a Piet? I'm talking about a list that would readily translate into an order to a supplier. I got the construction manual from the Pietenpols when I bought my plans & there is a 'parts' list in the back, but it's really just that, a list of all the pre-cut parts BHP used to sell. I'm looking for more of a 'bulk wood' list, i.e. 'x feet of 3/4 x 1/2" rib stock', or the # of sq. ft. of each thickness of plywood needed, etc. Anyone ever created such a list that they'd be willing to share? Thanks! Kip Gardner Laboratory Manager, ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Subject: E mail address.
Would someone please furnish Mr. Pietenpol's e mail address. I need to find out the serial number assigned my plans so I can acquire a registration number. I'm careless about those things. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E mail address.
From: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Date: Feb 23, 2001
02/23/2001 02:05:36 PM Corky, Andrew Pietenpol's address is . I don't know Don's off hand, but Andrew will get the info to you, I'm sure. Cheers! Kip Gardner Laboratory Manager, ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Wood?
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Kip, I was given a list made up by a previous builder that Aircraft Spruce based their quote on. I had sent it to a few people back when this was discussed earlier. Be glad to send it to you if you'd like. At this point I'm done with all of the wood work, and the quantities came out pretty much on the money. walt ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: <kgardner(at)odu.edu> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood? > > > Hi Everyone, > > With all the talk about spars, etc. over the past few days, something that > I've wondered about from time to time stirred in the back corners of what's > left of my mind (try being a first-time father at age 41 some time). > Namely, has anyone ever put together a comprehensive list of wood types & > sizes necessary to build a Piet? I'm talking about a list that would > readily translate into an order to a supplier. I got the construction > manual from the Pietenpols when I bought my plans & there is a 'parts' list > in the back, but it's really just that, a list of all the pre-cut parts BHP > used to sell. I'm looking for more of a 'bulk wood' list, i.e. 'x feet of > 3/4 x 1/2" rib stock', or the # of sq. ft. of each thickness of plywood > needed, etc. Anyone ever created such a list that they'd be willing to > share? > > Thanks! > > Kip Gardner > Laboratory Manager, ODU > Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences > 4600 Elkhorn Avenue > Norfolk, VA 23529 > (757)683-5654 > > Bumper Sticker of the Week: > "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood?
From: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Date: Feb 23, 2001
02/23/2001 04:33:37 PM Walt, Thanks very much, that would be a great help! Can you easily e-mail it or do you need a postal address? Regards, Kip Gardner Laboratory Manager, ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol e-mail Address
From: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Date: Feb 23, 2001
02/23/2001 05:20:40 PM I was just nosing around the web & happened to revisit the Pietenpol family web site. Andrew Pietenpol's e-mail address has apparently changed to : . Kip Gardner Laboratory Manager, ODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences 4600 Elkhorn Avenue Norfolk, VA 23529 (757)683-5654 Bumper Sticker of the Week: "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SkykingN99(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Subject: Re: Wood?
Walt I would like a copy of the wood list also, thanks in advance. A wannabe bilder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)gate.net>
Subject: Re: Drag/antidrag wires, and 1x19 cable
Date: Feb 23, 2001
You noted that you were thinking of using 1x19 cable for your brace cables. This what the 1x19 is for as it is stiff and you can't form it around a thimble . You will have to use a swaged end fitting and these are quite expensive. I'd think again before buying 1x19. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Woodflier(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Drag/antidrag wires > > I too wondered about the material for the drag/antidrag wires, and ended up > using 11 ga. fence wire from my local farm supply store. It was cheap, is > heavier gauge than the 13 ga. hard wire called for in the plans. I had an EAA > Technical Counselor check over the first wing panel I built and he said it > should be fine - in fact he said, "Bernie would be proud." I did follow his > recommendation and redid the wires, allowing about an inch of wire to > protrude beyond the nicopress sleeves and then bent that end back over the > sleeve. The Tech Counselor said this provided additional resistance to the > wire possibly pulling back through the sleeve, unlikely in any case. Bacause > the wire comes in rolls, there is a little wavyness to the wires once > installed. A little bendin to get the biggest jogs out gives a pretty > straight wire. > > I plan on using 1X19 for the tail and strut bracing. > > Matt Paxton > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Subject: Re: E mail address.
In a message dated 2/23/01 10:43:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes: > Would someone please furnish Mr. Pietenpol's e mail address. I need to find > out the serial number assigned my plans so I can acquire a registration > number. I'm careless about those things. > Corky > > > Corky, You don't need a plans serial number to get a registration, just apply for it. You also don't the registration until you are ready to license and fly. Doug Bryant ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2001
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wood?
you can look back in the archives. there have been lists posted in the past. I bought (7) 1 x 6 x 16ft spruce boards and looks like I'll have about the right amount. I did buy my ribs already done though. del --- SkykingN99(at)aol.com wrote: > SkykingN99(at)aol.com > > Walt > > I would like a copy of the wood list also, thanks in > advance. > > > A wannabe bilder > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2001
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wood?
GREAT! This is what my wife says about me :-) "Would you never stop beeing kid?" Saludos Gary Gower "The one who dies with more toys wins!" "Price of toys is proportional to the age of the kid" --- kgardner(at)odu.edu wrote: > kgardner(at)odu.edu > > Bumper Sticker of the Week: > "When I Grow Up, I Want To Be A Kid! > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 23, 2001
Subject: Re: Drag/antidrag wires
In a message dated 2/23/01 7:12:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, Woodflier(at)aol.com writes: > I too wondered about the material for the drag/antidrag wires, and ended up > using 11 ga. fence wire from my local farm supply store. It was cheap, is > heavier gauge than the 13 ga. hard wire called for in the plans. I had an > EAA > Technical Counselor check over the first wing panel I built and he said it > should be fine - in fact he said, "Bernie would be proud." I did follow his > recommendation and redid the wires, allowing about an inch of wire to > protrude beyond the nicopress sleeves and then bent that end back over the > sleeve. The Tech Counselor said this provided additional resistance to the > wire possibly pulling back through the sleeve, unlikely in any case. > Bacause > the wire comes in rolls, there is a little wavyness to the wires once > installed. A little bendin to get the biggest jogs out gives a pretty > Matt, The hard wire issue is somewhat puzzling these days. Hard wire is made from 1095 high carbon drawn steel. It is also called music wire. Hard wire as was used in some vintage aircraft also used a hard wire oval shaped wound ferrell. The ferrell was manufactured also from 1095 steel but in the soft state then heat treated and drawn giving it its high strength properties. The ferrell was slipped onto the wire, then a loop and a leader was formed at the end with a small tool followed by slipping the ferrell over the leader. then bending the excess end of the leader back as you have described. Some info from old books I have say solder and some say don't solder; the point being to not affect the heat treated properties of the ferrell or wire. The #11 low carbon steel wire you have could stretch and elongate the loop in a short number of hours. I tried some similar when I first started and didn't like it . Probably the best substitute for the hard wire on a piet is 3/32 aircraft cable (swagged or Nicopress) for the drag and antidrag and 1/16 or 3/32 aircraft cable for the tail. BHP used 1/16 for the tail and 3/32 for the wing on the two aircraft in the museums at Oshkosh. I don't know of any hard wire ferrells being manufactured today. Maybe someone does. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks


January 23, 2001 - February 24, 2001

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-bv