Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cg
January 04, 2002 - January 23, 2002
Must be nice to have AutoCAD, I can't seem to open it. I downloaded a
program called Volo View Express that at least will let me view it, but it
won't allow full size printing. Any suggestions software wise?? (free
download?)
Anyway.... last night I stretched a tight thread on my jig and laid
a coat of Helmsman spar polyurethane over it. I'll get this drawn out this
weekend. Isn't Helmsman spar polyurethane what some have used to seal the
wood? I'm a long way from having to do this but it cost 10 bucks and I'd
like to use it up.
Kent
>If you go to www.aircamper.no-ip.com
>go down about 3/4 the way to a file called pietenpol.dwg
Aha! Once again the value of this list (and the websites) proves out! I
was going to draw this up in AutoCAD one rainy Saturday, but now all I have
to do is plot it and spend a little time over the dining room table with a
ruler to check it out. Excellent!
BTW- there is lots of other good stuff on this site. A guy could spend lots
of time browsing through the images and other good stuff there...
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim <tbertw(at)tenbuckplans.com> |
| Subject: | full size rib drawing |
List,
An easy to view .dwg is to use Intellicad. They have evaluation software at:
http://www.cadopia.com/
I have the evaluation copy. I have not tried to print / plot, but it is a
good cad for "dummies". My son does Autocad 2002 for a living and he is
going to plot it full size for me today. <>
Tim
>
>Must be nice to have AutoCAD, I can't seem to open it. I downloaded a
>program called Volo View Express that at least will let me view it, but it
>won't allow full size printing. Any suggestions software wise?? (free
>download?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Full size rib drawing |
I'm at work right now and have access to AutoCad and a plotter. I
downloaded rib drawing and plotted it out. I was able to get four full
size,
uncut copies on a 36"x62" sheet and have them available. If anyone wants a
copy, and they promise that they already have the drawings PURCHASED from
Don P, I'ld be happy to mail a copy.
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
> If you go to www.aircamper.no-ip.com you can access all the pictures that
> were in the old aircamper.org -- go down about 3/4 the way to a file
called
> pietenpol.dwg -- this is an AutoCAD drawing of the Piet rib -- it is
pretty
> good around the spars -- compared to the rib ordinates it is about 1/8" to
> 1/4" thicker & the trailing edge is thicker than it could be. If you
don't
> wait too long between printing & laying out your rib (same or next day --
> right now in KS you could wait a week & it still wouldn't have changed!
;-),
> it should be real close. I printed mine out at work on legal size paper
> (took
> 6 pages) and layed them out with the 27 3/4" between the spars.
>
> If anyone with a "cheap & cheerful" CAD program can use this file if it
will
> recognize *.dwg -- if your CAD only recognizes *.dxf files I have it
> converted to that format -- only about 85k worth.
>
> Mike C.
> Pretty Prairie, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Full size rib drawing |
I'm at work right now and have access to AutoCad and a plotter. I
downloaded rib drawing and plotted it out. I was able to get four full
size, uncut copies on a 36"x62" sheet and have them available. If anyone
wants a copy, and they promise that they already have the drawings PURCHASED
from Don P, I'd be happy to mail a copy.
I can not verify the accuracy of the original drawing, I do not know who
drew it. It has 1" for the spars and there is 28-1/8" between spars (inside
dimension).
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, Illinois
> If you go to www.aircamper.no-ip.com you can access all the pictures that
> were in the old aircamper.org -- go down about 3/4 the way to a file
called
> pietenpol.dwg -- this is an AutoCAD drawing of the Piet rib -- it is
pretty
> good around the spars -- compared to the rib ordinates it is about 1/8" to
> 1/4" thicker & the trailing edge is thicker than it could be. If you
don't
> wait too long between printing & laying out your rib (same or next day --
> right now in KS you could wait a week & it still wouldn't have changed!
;-),
> it should be real close. I printed mine out at work on legal size paper
> (took
> 6 pages) and layed them out with the 27 3/4" between the spars.
>
> If anyone with a "cheap & cheerful" CAD program can use this file if it
will
> recognize *.dwg -- if your CAD only recognizes *.dxf files I have it
> converted to that format -- only about 85k worth.
>
> Mike C.
> Pretty Prairie, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: full size rib drawing |
Absolutely, agreed on all counts...
By the way, we have Richard DeCosta to thank for keeping www.aircamper.org
alive.
Some of you old timers (pre Matronix) may recognize the name.
Thanks Richard for the site and to everyone else that sits down at the kitchen
table and archives something that helps us all later!
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
> "Michael Conkling" wrote:
>
> >If you go to www.aircamper.no-ip.com
> >go down about 3/4 the way to a file called pietenpol.dwg
>
> Aha! Once again the value of this list (and the websites) proves out! I
> was going to draw this up in AutoCAD one rainy Saturday, but now all I have
> to do is plot it and spend a little time over the dining room table with a
> ruler to check it out. Excellent!
>
> BTW- there is lots of other good stuff on this site. A guy could spend lots
> of time browsing through the images and other good stuff there...
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, Oregon
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "james cooper" <blugoos1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Shoulder harnesses & seat belts |
I could sure use some help and suggestions on installing shoulder
harnesses & seat belts for both front and back seats on a GN 1 with a
metal tubing fuselage. Thank you, Jim Cooper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Original "spreader bar" type landing gear |
To those of you who are building/have built this type of gear, does
everyone heat and flatten the ends of the two spreader tubes as shown in
the drawings or is there a better way? I was thinking about welding a
nut to a washer (and then to the ends of the tubes) and moving them a
bit lower onto the ash block so that the bolt is square. Any ideas?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
I was dismayed to see that someone sold a Forrest Lovely-built radiator
on the Buckeye page for an extremely reasonable price and I missed it.
Does anyone else out there have a radiator they would like to get rid
of?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Full size rib drawing |
Glad to hear everyone found all the info -- I downloaded a bunch of the tail
feather pictures to help figure out some of the mystery details.
As you may have found out, the spar locations are off on this rib drawing --
when you correct the locations to the drawing ( 6 3/4" from L.E. & 27 3/4"
between spars), the 1" x 4 3/4" spars fit just right. The diagonals will
need to be adjusted & depending on how you make your T.E., you may need to
revise the last foot or so.
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Full size rib drawing
>
> I'm at work right now and have access to AutoCad and a plotter. I
> downloaded rib drawing and plotted it out. I was able to get four full
> size, uncut copies on a 36"x62" sheet and have them available. If anyone
> wants a copy, and they promise that they already have the drawings
PURCHASED
> from Don P, I'd be happy to mail a copy.
>
> I can not verify the accuracy of the original drawing, I do not know who
> drew it. It has 1" for the spars and there is 28-1/8" between spars
(inside
> dimension).
>
> Robert Haines
> Murphysboro, Illinois
>
>
> > If you go to www.aircamper.no-ip.com you can access all the pictures
that
> > were in the old aircamper.org -- go down about 3/4 the way to a file
> called
> > pietenpol.dwg -- this is an AutoCAD drawing of the Piet rib -- it is
> pretty
> > good around the spars -- compared to the rib ordinates it is about 1/8"
to
> > 1/4" thicker & the trailing edge is thicker than it could be. If you
> don't
> > wait too long between printing & laying out your rib (same or next
day --
> > right now in KS you could wait a week & it still wouldn't have changed!
> ;-),
> > it should be real close. I printed mine out at work on legal size paper
> > (took
> > 6 pages) and layed them out with the 27 3/4" between the spars.
> >
> > If anyone with a "cheap & cheerful" CAD program can use this file if it
> will
> > recognize *.dwg -- if your CAD only recognizes *.dxf files I have it
> > converted to that format -- only about 85k worth.
> >
> > Mike C.
> > Pretty Prairie, KS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: brass radiator |
Gene,
About a year ago, someone on the list had a radiator made by somewone in
Wichita Falls Texas for a good price and was happy with it. Look in the
archives or does anyone remember?
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: brass radiator
>
> I was dismayed to see that someone sold a Forrest Lovely-built radiator
> on the Buckeye page for an extremely reasonable price and I missed it.
> Does anyone else out there have a radiator they would like to get rid
> of?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
EAA Helps Another Member Receive Repairman Certificate Exemption
In 2000, EAA Government and Industry Relations helped member Lynn Ojala
obtain the first-ever FAA exemption granting an experimental
amateur-built aircraft repairman certificate for a person not listed as
primary builder. EAA was recently notified that a similar permanent
exemption was granted for member Scott Liefeld, (EAA 142355; VAA
0023436) Palmdale, California, granting the repairman certificate for
the Pietenpol Air Camper (N11MS) he helped his father build in the early
1970s. The FAR 65.104 regulation states that no person other than the
primary builder can hold the repairman certificate for an experimental
amateur-built aircraft. "I would help by cutting tubing to near correct
length so he could make a final fit and weld it," Scott explained. "I
would also make small bushings and fairleads on our lathe. I was always
his second set of hands."
(read more)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: brass radiator |
In a message dated 1/4/02 6:49:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, bobka(at)charter.net
writes:
> Gene,
>
> About a year ago, someone on the list had a radiator made by somewone in
> Wichita Falls Texas for a good price and was happy with it. Look in the
> archives or does anyone remember?
>
> Chris bobka
>
I have the drawing for the Forest Lovely radiator. I had mine made at a
radiator shop here in Wichita and it turned out fine. Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: brass radiator |
Doug,
Could I get a copy of the drawing?
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: <Doug413(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brass radiator
>
> In a message dated 1/4/02 6:49:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bobka(at)charter.net
> writes:
>
>
> > Gene,
> >
> > About a year ago, someone on the list had a radiator made by somewone in
> > Wichita Falls Texas for a good price and was happy with it. Look in the
> > archives or does anyone remember?
> >
> > Chris bobka
> >
>
> I have the drawing for the Forest Lovely radiator. I had mine made at a
> radiator shop here in Wichita and it turned out fine. Doug Bryant
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Original "spreader bar" type landing gear |
Hi Gene,
I'm building this type of gear and flattened the tubes per the F&G manual.
It took several tries, and I have two tubes that now are almost long enough
for the rear spreader. After starting over and making finally two good
spreader bars that just fit, I looked at some pictures of Mike Cuy's and
realized that he put washers under the ends of the spreader bars so his bars
didn't have to be exactly the right length. I wish I had done that, because
with the spreader bars right up against the struts, the bracing wire
fittings are too tight and too close to the nuts on the bolts that hold the
struts to the bottom "V" fittings.
Flattening the tubes is not difficult. Tony Bingelis describes the
procedure in the "EAA Aircraft Building Techniques - Welding" book. The
only problem with these is that the bend must be angled in two different
directions to fit the struts and it is difficult to jusdge exactly how long
to make it with such a bend. My advice would be to try to make it an exact
fit, but if you err, err on the short side and make it fit by building up
washers.
Let me know if you need some pictures and I can send you some.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Original "spreader bar" type landing gear
To those of you who are building/have built this type of gear, does
everyone heat and flatten the ends of the two spreader tubes as shown in
the drawings or is there a better way? I was thinking about welding a
nut to a washer (and then to the ends of the tubes) and moving them a
bit lower onto the ash block so that the bolt is square. Any ideas?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder harnesses & seat belts |
Jim,
After seeing some ideas by the brits, I'm using a 1/2" steel tube "A" frame on
mine. I've got a wood fuselage, but the idea is the same.
Make up an "A" with a flat top to wrap the strap anchor around and a lower cross
bar. The feet of the "A" mount to the top longerons.
Two relatively thin metal straps go from the top of the "A" next to the flat
part, down and back to attach to the top longerons.
On impact the strap pulls on the flat top of the "A". Some load is conveyed down
the legs of the "A" but the greater force trying to rotate the part forward is
resisted by the straps and conveyed to the rear of the fuselage.
A little simpler than running a cable from the "A" back to the fuselage, but
probably not quite as strong.
Sorry I don't have a picture, if you want I'll try to draw something.
Larry
james cooper wrote:
>
> I could sure use some help and suggestions on installing shoulder
> harnesses & seat belts for both front and back seats on a GN 1 with a
> metal tubing fuselage. Thank you, Jim Cooper
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bengelis books |
| From: | john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
Jeffery,
For some good info on rib building, I also recommend the EAA Wood book;
very reasonable in price, too. But beside that, one of the best
articles out there was Tony Bingelis' "Sportplane Builder" column in the
February, 1994 issue of Sport Aviation. This article might be available
through the EAA website. If not, you can contact the EAA library and
they will send you a photcopy version of it. If all else fails, email me
and I can probably arrange to send you a photocopy.
The only thing that I recommend that is not described, that I recall, in
any of these articles, is to use wooden camlocks to hold the pieces in
the jig. One builder I spoke with before I began did not do this. He
just used fixed wooden blocks in his jig to hold the ribstock pieces
tightly in place; then, when he cut the second batch of capstrip to make
the next batch of ribs, it was slightly fatter, enough so that it caused
him a lot of trouble by not fitting inside his fixed blocks. I used
fixed blocks on one side of the piece, with a camlock on the other side.
Put the wooden piece in, rotate the camlock and it's locked snugly in
place, slick as can be. I got this idea from a photo in the BPAN from
some builders in Alabama of their rib jig.
John Fay in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffery Lorimor <jlorimor(at)willinet.net> |
Chris, Kip, Jack, John-
Thanks for the advice on the wood books. I've ordered the EAA Wood
Aircraft Building Techniques along with the flying and Glider Manual which
I've been going to get for a long time. I'll get the others from Chris
this spring.
John, I'm getting along well building ribs using a jig with fixed blocks,
but I've ripped all the strips myself from spruce in an old KR kit, so
they're all the same size. (Have about $50 plus the T-88 invested in
materials so far). The cams sound like a good idea though for the situation
where cap strip thickness varies.
I had a few thin strips left over from ripping the real ones, so I made a
rib out of them for my son's Christmas. Sanded it, varnished it up nice,
and got a little brass plate that says "Pietenpol" to stick on the center,
upper gusset. It made a great gift. (I think I should have kept it
myself!!) Hey, there's more to this building then just making an airplane!!
Jeff Lorimor
Jeff & Peg Lorimor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | shoulder harnesses & seat belts |
Jim wrote:
>I could sure use some help and suggestions on installing shoulder
>harnesses & seat belts for both front and back seats on a GN 1 with
>a metal tubing fuselage.
There are/were some excellent photos of how the Brits are doing the
passenger cockpit shoulder harness attachment, per their PFA requirements...
but I don't remember where the site is (big help, huh?). They use a welded
bracket mounted to the top longerons, braced backwards, and concealed in the
top cowl that covers the instruments.
The pilot's shoulder harness attach that I've seen is just the cables
running back to the tail inside the turtledeck, but steel tube fuselage sure
gives you a lot more options than wood. You can see the few photos I have
of belt attachments at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets3.html
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Capstrip which is too thin |
| From: | john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
.
>
> I had a few thin strips left over from ripping the real ones, so I
>
I made a lot of the ribstock from wood I got from AS&S in their $15 grab
bag. A couple boards were 0.19-0.20 in. thick, rather than the 0.25" it
should be. I cut it up and made a bunch of slightly undersized stock
which I used for the two vertical members of the rib which lie up against
the spars. They are not needed for strength ( the original plans did not
even have them) but are usually included for alignment purposes. So I
figured that there should be no structural problem. I took them to
school and weighed them in the science lab. If I remember, I calculated
I saved about 2.2 ounces, but mostly I was proud that I had found a way
to use those two thin boards and not waste any of that valuable spruce.
One small triumph.
John in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: brass radiator |
In a message dated 1/4/02 8:58:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, bobka(at)charter.net
writes:
> Doug,
>
> Could I get a copy of the drawing?
>
> Chris bobka
>
Yes, you can a copy. I don't believe I have your address any more. Doug
Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: brass radiator |
Hi:
I had a brass radiator made in Bowie Texas by Bell Mfg. and I am quite happy
with it.
John Greenlee, (who now lives in Bowie) had the first Bll radiator made to
measurements he made of one of the A Piets at Brodhead some years ago; it
was Will Graff's. I just had them make me a copy of John's.
The price was not bad, about $275 I think; that was 2 years ago.
Ifurnished them with a brass filler neck and cap, a replica of a 1917 Model
T neck which I ordered from Snyders in Ohio.
Bell Mfg has a website , could try Bell Manufactring and then search;
anyway their phone number is 1-800-433-0939 , ask for Dean. They were
good people to deal with.
Hope this helps. Lou Larsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brass radiator
>
> Gene,
>
> About a year ago, someone on the list had a radiator made by somewone in
> Wichita Falls Texas for a good price and was happy with it. Look in the
> archives or does anyone remember?
>
> Chris bobka
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: brass radiator
>
>
> >
> > I was dismayed to see that someone sold a Forrest Lovely-built radiator
> > on the Buckeye page for an extremely reasonable price and I missed it.
> > Does anyone else out there have a radiator they would like to get rid
> > of?
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors |
Dave,
Just caught your message. What exactly did you mean by the M E K effect on
the body?
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors |
Corky,
MEK is bad news stuff to use. We were working in a private hangar
and getting pretty gassed by having about 12 people learing to use
the Poly Fiber process. The MEK will got me pretty clumbsy. I had
a lot of problems trying to make my fingers do rib stitching. I was
also probably weaving on the drive home. If you look up the MSDS on
MEK you will probably want to stop reading. Oh well, we all gotta
die sometime.
Dave
N36078 '41 BC-12-65
>
>
>Dave,
>Just caught your message. What exactly did you mean by the M E K effect on
>the body?
>Corky
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffery Lorimor <jlorimor(at)willinet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors |
Norm-
I've been using T-88 all winter in my basement. There's practically no
odor to it, and the label doesn't have any respiratory cautions. My wife
is very sensitive to such things as strange odors such as Mar Hyde,
Variprime, and MEK, and she hasn't said a thing about the T-88 that I've
used about every night all winter. I think you won't have a problem with it.
Jeff Lorimor
Jeff & Peg Lorimor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors |
A couple of weeks ago I was using a tube of polyeurathane glue. The tube
burst on it's side and I had one hell of a mess in my left hand. You might
remember several months ago after I had used this stuff I asked the list how
to get it off your hands. Well in order to clean this last time I used
varsol, Acetone, Lacquer Thinner, Acrylic lacquer thinner and it still
wouldn't dissolve the glue. By this time I had a complete coating on both
hands. I then poured some MEK in a bowl and washed my hands for several
minutes. It cleaned them slightly but to this day I still feel like I have
varnished hands.
My reason for asking you about the effects was that I spent the next 2 or 3
days in a zombie state. Tonight after requesting your comment I went to the
shop and read the cautions. I'll get rid of that stuff manana. Thanks for
your return mail
Corky the zombie in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
>
>A couple of weeks ago I was using a tube of polyeurathane glue. The tube
>burst on it's side and I had one hell of a mess in my left hand. You might
>remember several months ago after I had used this stuff I asked the list how
>to get it off your hands. Well in order to clean this last time I used
>varsol, Acetone, Lacquer Thinner, Acrylic lacquer thinner and it still
>wouldn't dissolve the glue. By this time I had a complete coating on both
>hands. I then poured some MEK in a bowl and washed my hands for several
>minutes. It cleaned them slightly but to this day I still feel like I have
>varnished hands.
>My reason for asking you about the effects was that I spent the next 2 or 3
>days in a zombie state. Tonight after requesting your comment I went to the
>shop and read the cautions. I'll get rid of that stuff manana. Thanks for
>your return mail
>Corky the zombie in La
Gang,
Like Dave said, MEK is nasty stuff. In Chemist's lingo, it is an 'aromatic
organic solvent', meaning it can dissolve other organic substances, like
oil, grease, some glues, etc., and has a specific chemical structure that
gives it it's 'aromatic' qualities. Also, because the cells of your body
have membranes that are mostly composed of cholesterol and other lipid (the
fancy name for 'fat') molecules, it can be absorbed through your skin, as
well as being inhaled. (BTW, 'MSDS' stands for 'Material Safety Data Sheet'
- the document a manufacturer has to supply with a chemical to inform you
of it's risks & hazards)
This all wouldn't be so bad, except that it does all sorts of bad stuff to
your body. First, it can make you higher than a Piet's operational ceiling.
Too, much and you are flying with the angels - after you pass out first (if
you get my drift). However, even if you don't suffer from immediate effects
of exposure, chronic, long term exposure will lead to fun things like
cancer (liver, kidneys, leukemia, Hodgkins disease, etc.) and is also a
potent reproductive toxin as well (i.e. leads to defective family jewels).
All that said, it is a very useful solvent, but you need to use it very
cautiously - plenty of ventilation, protective gloves for your hands,
organic filtration mask if you aren't sure of your ventilation. Check with
your local industrial safety supply company; there is one in any medium to
large city (look under 'safety supplies' in the Yellow Pages). Tell them
what you are working with & how you are using it. There are an amazing
number of protective gloves, coatings and filters out there, some of which
will not interfere with your dexterity.
Besides having spent 20 years working in labs where we handled this kind of
stuff daily, my best friend from when I was in High School & College was a
Navy A&P, and a piano technician on the side. He used MEK, Acetone, &
Toluene almost every day on the job, without protection, for his entire
Navy career (we didn't know as much back then). When he was in his late
30's he came down with Hodgkins Disease (lymphatic system cancer), I'm sure
the result of his exposure to these chemicals without protection. He was
the first person in his family to ever have cancer, which increases the
odds that the chemicals were responsible.
It has always amazed me how freely available this stuff is to casual users
when I spent 20 years having to comply with all sorts of institutional
rules & regulations to make sure we stayed safe. Our chemical safety
officer at the University would have shut me down in a New York Minute if I
used MEK the way most people are taught to use it at some of the Polyfiber
workshops.
Enough preachin' - please get informed & stay safe everyone!
Cheers,
kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Gussets, rib dimensions. |
About 1/16" plywood, I haven't seen any mention of how much is
needed for rib gussets, and it's not on the wood lists I have. I tried
'plywood gusset' search on archives, amount was not mentioned. How much
used on the Piet in total?
I drew out the rib on my jig board this weekend. The lines aren't
as smooth as I wished, but the capstrip will not know how bad I draw. As
long as the measurements for the layout are correct, and to the required
shape it should be good, right? Cut and drilled blocks, will cut cams
tonight maybe.
Does the 60" rib length include the leading and trailing edge of the
wing, which get added on later? Or is the rib 60" and the leading &
trailing edge make it a bit longer? I laid it out from the L.E. to the end
of rib, 60" , with NO T.E. added on . That's what it looks like on my
plans, and the full size rib drawing.
Now the really important question. I plotted the rib with the dimension
from the L.E. to spar front, (6" or 6 3/4", can't remember now!) and 27
3/4" between spars. Would like to use 3/4" spars.
Does this sound like I'm on the right track? I'm sorry if this has
been recently discussed, but this is the first part I'm making on my plane,
and there are going to be a lot of questions until I get in the groove of
building. I don't want to make a critical mistake at this point, to have it
bite me when I attach the wings years from now.
Sorry for the long questions, but it has been close to 25 years since I did
any woodworking, but wow, this is fun so far!
Kent
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
Kip,
From your opinion would it be best for me to go the nitrate, butyrate method
rather than the Poly route for chemical safety? I want to finish my Piet as
good as possible but I dare not face any hazards in the process as I will
most likely put it on the block shortly after the fly off is completed.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gussets, rib dimensions. |
----- Original Message -----
From: Kent Hallsten
To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gussets, rib dimensions.
Does the 60" rib length include the leading and trailing edge
of the
wing, which get added on later? Or is the rib 60" and the leading &
trailing edge make it a bit longer?
<< 60" is total length of rib. Adding LE & TE makes little
difference>>
Now the really important question. I plotted the rib with the
dimension
from the L.E. to spar front, (6" or 6 3/4", can't remember now!)
and 27
3/4" between spars. Would like to use 3/4" spars.
<< I have some extra ribs & I measured one. I used a 3/4" spar,
LE to spar front- 6 3/4"
Front of 3/4" spar to front of rear spar 28 3/4">>
<>
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Gussets, rib dimensions. |
Thanks Mike,
I guess a little here and there won't make much of a difference.
Kent
<< 60" is total length of rib. Adding LE & TE makes little
difference>>
Now the really important question. I plotted the rib with the
dimension
from the L.E. to spar front, (6" or 6 3/4", can't remember now!)
and 27
3/4" between spars. Would like to use 3/4" spars.
<< I have some extra ribs & I measured one. I used a 3/4" spar,
LE to spar front- 6 3/4"
Front of 3/4" spar to front of rear spar 28 3/4">>
<>
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
"'KHallsten(at)governair.com'"
| Subject: | Gussets, rib dimensions. |
Kent,
It is fun, isn't it. The one question you asked that I might have a unique
answer for is about the 3/4 inch spars. I did mine with one inch spars, and
the plans are pretty unclear...but...somewhere deep in the "builder's
manual" that came with the plans, there is a comment that with 3/4 inch
spars, it was expected that the builder would use 1/8 plywood blocks between
the spar and the (sized for 1 inch spars)ribs. This makes all of the other
dimensions identical to those with 1 inch spars. I think the comment is in
the section that explains how there's really no need to update the plans :-P
Other than that, as I remember I completely used up a 2 x 4 sheet of 1/6
plywood and then some for rib gussets when I was doing this. I thought that
60 inches was the overall chord, L.E. and T.E. included, but I could be
remembering wrong. I don't have my plans handy. Whatever the layout data
says works. I know that I used pre-cut 60" material for both top and bottom
without problems.
As for layout, remember to leave some extra rib material at the leading
edge to clamp to. Even after soaking and pre-bending, the leading edge bend
is pretty stiff, and the area around the gusset gets to be a pretty gluey
mess. Trim the L.E. and T.E. after the glue is dry--that way you can get
them exactly alike. I wrote an article for the EAA chapter 14 newsletter
last year about doing this--you might find it on their website.
Gene Hubbard
San Diego
-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Hallsten [mailto:KHallsten(at)governair.com]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gussets, rib dimensions.
About 1/16" plywood, I haven't seen any mention of how much is
needed for rib gussets, and it's not on the wood lists I have. I tried
'plywood gusset' search on archives, amount was not mentioned. How much
used on the Piet in total?
I drew out the rib on my jig board this weekend. The lines aren't
as smooth as I wished, but the capstrip will not know how bad I draw. As
long as the measurements for the layout are correct, and to the required
shape it should be good, right? Cut and drilled blocks, will cut cams
tonight maybe.
Does the 60" rib length include the leading and trailing edge of the
wing, which get added on later? Or is the rib 60" and the leading &
trailing edge make it a bit longer? I laid it out from the L.E. to the end
of rib, 60" , with NO T.E. added on . That's what it looks like on my
plans, and the full size rib drawing.
Now the really important question. I plotted the rib with the dimension
from the L.E. to spar front, (6" or 6 3/4", can't remember now!) and 27
3/4" between spars. Would like to use 3/4" spars.
Does this sound like I'm on the right track? I'm sorry if this has
been recently discussed, but this is the first part I'm making on my plane,
and there are going to be a lot of questions until I get in the groove of
building. I don't want to make a critical mistake at this point, to have it
bite me when I attach the wings years from now.
Sorry for the long questions, but it has been close to 25 years since I did
any woodworking, but wow, this is fun so far!
Kent
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gussets, rib dimensions. |
----- Original
Kent,
somewhere deep in the "builder's
manual" that came with the plans, there is a comment that with 3/4
inch
spars, it was expected that the builder would use 1/8 plywood blocks
between
the spar and the (sized for 1 inch spars)ribs. This makes all of the
other
dimensions identical to those with 1 inch spars. I think the comment
is in
the section that explains how there's really no need to update the
plans :-P
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's how I did it.
Mike B Piet N687MB( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
>
>Kip,
>From your opinion would it be best for me to go the nitrate, butyrate method
>rather than the Poly route for chemical safety? I want to finish my Piet as
>good as possible but I dare not face any hazards in the process as I will
>most likely put it on the block shortly after the fly off is completed.
>Corky in La
Hi Corky,
If I understand you correctly, you are worried mostly about putting a buyer
at risk? If so, don't worry too much, the solvents will all be long gone by
the time you are ready to put it up for sale. One of the reasons they are
so damn useful is because they evaporate quickly & don't leave a residue.
If you are worried about your own safety, well, nitrate/butyrate systems
use some of the same solvents (At least, I've seen Toluene, which is just
as nasty as MEK listed as an ingredient of some dopes). About the only way
to protect yourself is to use some of the contact/respiratory precautions I
mentioned in my first post - fresh air and solvent-proof gloves are your
best friends.
Hope this helps.
Kip
(PS, at your age, any additional exposure to these chemicals is not likely
to increase your cancer risk much above what it already is - being a fellow
southerner, I won't speculate about the other risks I mentioned. My current
best friend, also a true southern gentleman, always says that his father
wanted to die by being shot by a jealous husband when he was 95).
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
Thanks Kip,
Talked with my tech advisor late today. He sticks to the Poly system as the
least hazardous. He is so willing to help I hesitate to argue with him in as
much as I know so little on the subject. Medicine and chemistry are my
mysteries. On the effects of the stuff at my age, I've already been through
one cancer bout and survived, less family jewels, but I feel fine and want to
fly fly fly. Was encouraged a few days ago when they said the Sport Pilot
deal was being resurfaced and then this diddy dumb wad had to direct that 172
into the IBM building. I'm beginning to wonder maybe the good Lord might not
want me to fly again. Thanks again for your comments and advice.
Corky who lives on the SOUTH side of my street in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "twinboom" <twinboom(at)email.msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors |
I always use a NIOSH approved facemask even when working on my R/C stuff
when it comes to epoxies and resins. We tend to think injury "won't" happen
to us, but for fifty bucks, it is a prudent investment to rule out these
factors. These masks are about five steps up from the 3M type pull over
masks, but when we are talkng PPM, parts per million, that can cause
unrepairable harm, it is best to err on the safe side. Well ventilated work
ares are the best thing you could do, but the mask assures saftey. After
all, you want to be able to enjoy the work you've put into your plane afetr
you are done. If anyone would like to see copies of the NIOSH/MSDS
recomendations for certain chemcicals, let me know, and tommorrow, Tuesday,
I will post pics to the archive site. I could also respond privately. I had
some work done on my shulder today, so will be out of work for a couple of
weeks. You might be surprised what it says about things we commonly use.
Sorry for the bandwith, but health and safety should always be at the
forefront when building. CHeers,
Doug Blackburn, Arrowbear Lake, So. Cal.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca.
<http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ISR>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
Given all of the hazards I will probably go with Poly Fiber. The
TCart needs new fabric in the next few years and the burn demo that
they give is pretty convincing. I will also use purple stripe filters
which Jim and Dondi Miller suggest. My life exposure to carcinogens
is way past where I want it to be - smoked for 20 years, washed my
hands in Tricloroethane, and worked on radars in the Army. When I
was a kid I thought that the glue and dope smelled great as I worked
on my model airplanes. Back then the butyrate smelled like bananas.
BTW, it is getting freaking cold up here for me. I have got to talk
my bride into moving to FL, AL, LA or some other civilized place.
Dave
N36078 '41 BC-12-65
Retsof, NY
>
>
>Thanks Kip,
>Talked with my tech advisor late today. He sticks to the Poly system as the
>least hazardous. He is so willing to help I hesitate to argue with him in as
>much as I know so little on the subject. Medicine and chemistry are my
>mysteries. On the effects of the stuff at my age, I've already been through
>one cancer bout and survived, less family jewels, but I feel fine and want
to
>fly fly fly. Was encouraged a few days ago when they said the Sport Pilot
>deal was being resurfaced and then this diddy dumb wad had to direct that
172
>into the IBM building. I'm beginning to wonder maybe the good Lord might not
>want me to fly again. Thanks again for your comments and advice.
>Corky who lives on the SOUTH side of my street in La
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Corky wrote:
>I want to finish my Piet as good as possible
>I will most likely put it on the block shortly after the
>fly off is completed.
Sounds like you've already been in the paint thinner, Corky! What are you
thinking?- you're going to finish the airplane, fly off the hours, then turn
around and sell it? I don't think so! Not if, as you said in a following
post, you want to "fly, fly, fly"! I sure hope you get hopelessly attached
to purring around the bayous in that old plane and don't sell it.
But how much you think you'll be asking? ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Bell" <mikebell(at)sc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Paint safety |
If you want safe and cheap, check the archives for Steve Eldredges
description of his latex house paint process.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Paint safety |
Thanks Mike,
Please explain how I bring up these archives
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike Cuy, here's a question for you. In your video, you mention that your
mechanical disk brakes came from the go-kart parts place. Are they anything
like the ones shown at:
http://www.gokartsupply.com/discbr.htm ?
Thanks!
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
>
>Mike Cuy, here's a question for you. In your video, you mention that your
>mechanical disk brakes came from the go-kart parts place. Are they anything
>like the ones shown at:
>http://www.gokartsupply.com/discbr.htm ?
Oscar----Very, very, similar. Mine are made by a company named Comet.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Latex paint 100% latex 100% safe... |
Corky,
For a good article about Latex painting (in this case
the writer is talking about boats) read this article:
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/articles.html#A1
And for an example of how to paint it got to:
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/paintinguls.htm
I used semi gloss latex paint (yellow and blue) for my
last finish of paint in my project.
looking around you may find a few photos if the
painting in my page
http://y42,briefcase.yahoo.com/briefcase
in the folder "pouchel"
and the finished project in the folder
"en el aerodormo"
Also in the Dec 2001 Kitplanes page 108 there is an
article using 100% latex (like my project)
By the way, for all of us, the working table in page
120 (same magazine) is great.
Enjoy...
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
> Isablcorky(at)aol.com
>
> Thanks Mike,
> Please explain how I bring up these archives
> Corky
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard A Hartwig <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> |
Many of the chemicals that we use have strong odors that remind us of
their dangers or they warn us of their potency by getting us high. Epoxy
is an exception. Epoxy has a mild, almost pleasant odor and you will not
feel any effect from it, but don't let that lull you into complacency.
Most room temperature curing epoxies contain a nasty chemical, I believe
it's called amine. You should use gloves and barrier cream to protect
your hands, work in a well ventilated area, use a respirator with a
proper filter and thoroughly wash with soap and water any contamination
of your skin.
Dick Hartwig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
>
>Thanks Kip,
>Talked with my tech advisor late today. He sticks to the Poly system as the
>least hazardous. He is so willing to help I hesitate to argue with him in as
>much as I know so little on the subject. Medicine and chemistry are my
>mysteries. On the effects of the stuff at my age, I've already been through
>one cancer bout and survived, less family jewels, but I feel fine and want to
>fly fly fly. Was encouraged a few days ago when they said the Sport Pilot
>deal was being resurfaced and then this diddy dumb wad had to direct that 172
>into the IBM building. I'm beginning to wonder maybe the good Lord might not
>want me to fly again. Thanks again for your comments and advice.
>Corky who lives on the SOUTH side of my street in La
Corky (& everyone else),
One last thing regarding this whole topic, which I forgot to mention. When
you have an 'acute' episode of exposure to organic solvents that makes you
feel woozy, part of the reason is that these solvents act sort of like
Carbon Monoxide (exhaust fumes) on your system, namely, they decrease your
blood's ability to carry oxygen, and part of what makes you feel high is
that you are literally short on air. This is not good, particularly, if
like Corky, you've had heart surgery. It means that your brain, heart, &
other organs have to do their job on insufficient O2. The old anesthetics
that surgeons used to use, like chloroform & ether, worked much the same
way, part of the reason they are no longer used for that purpose.
Corky, I didn't say so at first, but I also am distressed that you are
going to be selling your bird so soon after completing it. Let's all hope
that the most recent stupidity doesn't kill off the momentum towards
getting the Sport Pilot rules approved. (I feel sorry for the kid, but he
sure didn't do us any favors).
Kip
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
Kip,
Thanks for your interest in this ole rebel. However, I must correct you on
two accounts. It was prostate cancer NOT heart trouble. Second, I'm not going
anywhere, I hope, as I've already contacted my lumber man in Washington State
to be picking me out some select spruce and fir so I can begin Piet # 2. I
think I have enough parts left over to build two more. The real fun is in the
building and meeting and being with all the nice people who want to help.
Corky in beautiful La living life on the sunny side.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of T-88 Indoors/MEK, solvents |
>
>Kip,
>Thanks for your interest in this ole rebel. However, I must correct you on
>two accounts. It was prostate cancer NOT heart trouble. Second, I'm not going
>anywhere, I hope, as I've already contacted my lumber man in Washington State
>to be picking me out some select spruce and fir so I can begin Piet # 2. I
>think I have enough parts left over to build two more. The real fun is in the
>building and meeting and being with all the nice people who want to help.
>Corky in beautiful La living life on the sunny side.
Corky,
I stand corrected, sir. For some reason, I thought you'd had bypass
surgery. Glad to hear that you aren't going to be fading from the scene.
Maybe you'll get Piet # 2 & 3 completed before I manage to get # 1 finished.
Cheers!
Kip
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | MEK, engines and stuff |
Regarding MEK, lose it!
It won't cut old paint, varnish or glue gum and you can degrease for
critical painting or glueing with alcohol and do just as good a job if
careful. If you want to strip some paint, give brake fluid a thought,
hell, it worked for my kids on my fenders ;-).
I once helped use MEK to clean some flap ribs and got a leaking glove
full of it. After a while I noticed that I wasn't quite right in the
head (even worse than usual). The skin on that hand ended up like old
leather covered with sandpaper for a couple of days. I worry about the
exposure, but done is done and I won't be repeating that experience.
To change topics, I just got back from loading up two, count 'em two,
good used post '65 corvairs plus some good trading parts for $75 total!
Yes, they are out there and you can find them good shape too, I sure
did, what a deal. I just asked around, talking to about a dozen people
at airports and the calls started coming in.
Mr. Wynne is the man for conversions info and goodies. For parts and
overhaul info check Clarks Corvair, 413 625-9776
http://www.corvair.com/
Their catalog is full of good engine stuff and worth the few bucks just
for the engine ID and serial number info.
1965 or later seems to be the hot ticket for corvairs. As a very crude
rule, the '65 or later serial number will start with the letter "R".
The number is on the block near the oil sender and alternator bracket.
Last thought, I haven't read William's conversion book yet, but know
that when overheated 'vairs like to drop valve seats. I don't mean to
say this happens in a prop cooled motor, but on a mistreated car. If
you find the problem in your project motor, send the heads to Clark or
other competent shop and have it or preferably the whole set replaced,
don't try it with home tools.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol Aircamper - Model A engine (bored .060), Wico Mag model X, short
fuselage, tail skid (no brakes), Stits covering system (2.7oz on wing &
fuse - 1.8oz on empenage & ailerons), fiberglass fuel tank (no alcohol
allowed), home built birch prop with Kevlar / fiberglass tipping (74 X 48),
3/4" douglas fir spars and longerons, spruce empenage, cedar ribs,
shoulder harness to the tail post, Rustoleum Oil base Enamel aluminum paint
#7715 (red fuselage w/ white stripe and silver wing w/ red starburst on top),
Ace Spar Varnish (pt #16375), 674 pounds, radiator is width between
cabanes and about 12" tall with top tank recessed in behind the leading edge,
cowling is .025 2024 epoxy primer / red paint, detailed photo log and
airframe / engine log, W&B taken care of by moving wing back 3 1/2" and 14
pound ballast (I weigh 200 lbs. after a bowel movement), E.W.C.G. is 12.61"
behind leading edge, engine problems taken care of - was ready for final
inspection 2 months ago. Couldn't have done it without my partner, Doug
Bryant !! Thank you Doug !!
The FAA guy called me this morning, at 8:30, and agreed to meet me out at
Benton Airpark for the final inspection. After over 2 hours of close
inspection, and almost an hour of paperwork...
I've got my AIRWORTHYNESS CERTIFICATE !!
He paid many complements on workmanship & design...I've almost got him talked
into building one !!
Stay tuned...first flight coming up !!
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
CONGRATULATIONS!!
Chuck, that sounds like one nice Piet! You live just up the road from me,
and some time soon I want to drive up and see you. Have a blast flying
around. I'm a bit more motivated this morning, hearing your good news.
Kent Hallsten
Oklahoma City
-----Original Message-----
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com [mailto:Rcaprd(at)aol.com]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX770CG
Pietenpol Aircamper - Model A engine (bored .060), Wico Mag model X,
short
fuselage, tail skid (no brakes), Stits covering system (2.7oz on wing &
fuse - 1.8oz on empenage & ailerons), fiberglass fuel tank (no alcohol
allowed), home built birch prop with Kevlar / fiberglass tipping (74 X 48),
3/4" douglas fir spars and longerons, spruce empenage, cedar ribs,
shoulder harness to the tail post, Rustoleum Oil base Enamel aluminum paint
#7715 (red fuselage w/ white stripe and silver wing w/ red starburst on
top),
Ace Spar Varnish (pt #16375), 674 pounds, radiator is width between
cabanes and about 12" tall with top tank recessed in behind the leading
edge,
cowling is .025 2024 epoxy primer / red paint, detailed photo log and
airframe / engine log, W&B taken care of by moving wing back 3 1/2" and 14
pound ballast (I weigh 200 lbs. after a bowel movement), E.W.C.G. is 12.61"
behind leading edge, engine problems taken care of - was ready for final
inspection 2 months ago. Couldn't have done it without my partner, Doug
Bryant !! Thank you Doug !!
The FAA guy called me this morning, at 8:30, and agreed to meet me out at
Benton Airpark for the final inspection. After over 2 hours of close
inspection, and almost an hour of paperwork...
I've got my AIRWORTHYNESS CERTIFICATE !!
He paid many complements on workmanship & design...I've almost got him
talked
into building one !!
Stay tuned...first flight coming up !!
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Der Corkmeister asked:
>Please explain how I bring up these archives
Not sure if anyone replied directly to you Corky, but here's a general
response. I get the digest version of this list (once a day, all messages
in one post), and at the bottom of each digest is this list of helps on how
to use all the list tools:
> Post Message: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> Browse List: http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
> Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search
> Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives
> List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/pietenpol-list
> Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> Matronics: http://www.matronics.com/
For me, the most useful one is not the "archive" one (unless you have missed
lots of the earlier posts and just want to read for a while, or want to go
back a short period of time to retrieve a post you remember seeing), but the
search engine. Go to the search page there, it will prompt you for a list
to search (RV, Tailwind, Pietenpol, etc.) and a search keyword or phrase.
For instance, I just went to the page and entered the keyword "dork" on the
Piet list and found "zero" entries... which confirms what I already know-
that folks here are exceptionally polite. I entered "brakes" and found 398
hits, and can proceed from there to have it show me who posted what, when,
containing the word "brake" or "brakes". I usually go from the most recent
posts and proceed down through subject lines or posts by a person that I
think knows his stuff, and start reading. I did this with "jury struts",
"wing incidence", lots of other stuff since I've been on this list. It
works great.
As a general comment, I spoke with William Wynne last weekend while he was
still up in New Jersey with his family, about his Piet and the Pietenpollers
as a group. He strongly confirmed what I have found out very quickly: this
is a most pleasant, warm, supportive group with exceptional manners and a
deep love for flying for the enjoyment of it. He has been to Brodhead and
to other Piet functions and has found that everywhere he went... the
Pietenpol seems to attract people of the best type, and that is a very good
thing.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Oscar,
Thanks for a well organized and informative post. I have tried working
through the archives, but had never tried using the search engine. I will
now.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, North Carolina (still digging out from 12+ inches of snow last
week - we don't get that much very often)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mark boynton <marktboynton(at)yahoo.com> |
All,
Mike Bell wrote:
more from Michael Brusilow
I painted my wings using Sherman Williams varnish as a
filler coat,
then
Sherman Williams latex paint with a mix of silver
powder.
The fuselage was painted with Stitts stuff. After 13
years, there is
very little difference.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
My question is, where does one get this silver powder?
Mark Boynton
Gilbert, AZ
P.S. I switched from Excite's mail service to
Yahoo's. My new user ID is marktboynton(at)yahoo.com
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
List,
Several good posts in the past 24 hours.
Larry, get Wm's manual ASAP, it will clear up almost all questions. From
what I've discovered talking to various Corvair enthusiasts, the valve drop
problem is limited to the 180hp turbocharged models that came out in 1967
or 1968. These engines are apparently pretty rare & if you luck into one,
you would be better off selling it to a collector than trying to use it in
an aircraft. You could probably cover a big hunk of the cost of a
conversion by selling it. You can tell these engines from all the others
because they have four (count 'em - FOUR) locations for carbuerators on the
intake manifolds - no wonder Chevy couldn't afford to keep making them! A
good way to find usable conversion engines is to get in touch with your
local CORSA chapter; it's the national Corviar enthusiast's association.
They have a national web page with a directory/links to local chapters. I
have been in touch with the one in here in NE OH and have been assured that
I will be able to find a suitable engine from one of their members when I
am ready to. Each club seems to have at least one member who has a sizable
stockpile of engines.
Steve E's. archive post about latex paint pretty much follows an article
that was published in KitPlanes a couple of years ago. I think the only
major difference is that the author thinned his primer coats with a product
called 'Floetrol' to aid fabric penetration and leveling. The author had
done extensive testing over a 10-year period, and had some very specific
information on things like the best rollers to use, results of putting test
panels out in the weather for years, etc. If anyone wants a copy, send me a
post off-list & I can dig out that issue and send it. Other sources I've
seen recommend a periodic coat of 'Armorall' on top of the paint for
waterproofing & added UV protection.
For many of the cost, toxicity and durability issues mentioned over the
past few days, I intend to use the latex paint method when the time comes.
Finmally, does anyone have a current phone # for Wm. Wynne? The last one I
have, now about 2 years old, doesn't seem to work anymore.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Way to go, Chuck G. ! |
Congratulations on receiving your airworthiness certificate, Chuck !
Your empty weight sounds excellent with the Ford. Bet it will be
fun to taxi and fly. Course it will be a gusting crosswind, but otherwise
sunny and clear on the day you want to do it:))
The FAA inspector who did my plane in 1998 ended up getting so worked up
over grass airports and old planes that I helped him hunt down and buy
a 7AC Champ for 14 K here in Ohio. He got all checked out with a good
TW instructor and now flies that thing all over the place. We even fly
formation time to time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MEK, engines and stuff |
>
>Regarding MEK, lose it!
>
>It won't cut old paint, varnish or glue gum and you can degrease for
>critical painting or glueing with alcohol and do just as good a job if
>careful. If you want to strip some paint, give brake fluid a thought,
>hell, it worked for my kids on my fenders ;-).
Larry & List,
Forgot this on my previous post. I hate to rain on a parade, but be careful
with alcohol too, and remember that there are several types.
Ethanol (i.e. 'moonshine') - works well, not toxic (unless you imbibe too
much, but don't drink the 'denatured' stuff they sell at the hardware/paint
store, they add a chemical that makes it undrinkable, which is the idea:).
VERY flammable in the form usually available for shop use (95%- 190 proof).
Methanol (i.e. wood alcohol) - also works well, but toxic by skin
absorbtion (I don't remember all the toxic effects, but they are bad enough
to be concerned), and potentially lethal if imbibed - at the least it will
blind you. This is the stuff that's in Sterno & just about every urban ER
has experiences with desperate winos who drink this stuff & poison
themselves. Also very flammable.
Isopropanol (i.e. 'rubbing alcohol') - not generally very useful for any of
the applications we're interested in, but great to have around if your wife
is into giving back rubs.
Kip
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ignitor" <ignitor(at)qwest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Silver powder |
Mark;
Aircraft Spruce sells an aluminum past by Randolph. Comes in a 1 pound can,
but I think you have to mix it with dope....
Chris House
----- Original Message -----
From: mark boynton <marktboynton(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Silver powder
>
> All,
>
> Mike Bell wrote:
>
> more from Michael Brusilow
>
> I painted my wings using Sherman Williams varnish as a
> filler coat,
> then
> Sherman Williams latex paint with a mix of silver
> powder.
> The fuselage was painted with Stitts stuff. After 13
> years, there is
> very little difference.
>
> Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
>
>
> My question is, where does one get this silver powder?
>
> Mark Boynton
> Gilbert, AZ
>
> P.S. I switched from Excite's mail service to
> Yahoo's. My new user ID is marktboynton(at)yahoo.com
>
> http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com> |
Congrads Chuck! Will we see you at Brodhead this summer? Do you have any
photo's of your bird on line somewhere where we can see them?
Jim Kinsella NX799JK "Bare Bones"
>From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX770CG
>Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:32:40 EST
>
>
>Pietenpol Aircamper - Model A engine (bored .060), Wico Mag model X,
>short
>fuselage, tail skid (no brakes), Stits covering system (2.7oz on wing &
>fuse - 1.8oz on empenage & ailerons), fiberglass fuel tank (no alcohol
>allowed), home built birch prop with Kevlar / fiberglass tipping (74 X
>48),
> 3/4" douglas fir spars and longerons, spruce empenage, cedar ribs,
>shoulder harness to the tail post, Rustoleum Oil base Enamel aluminum
>paint
>#7715 (red fuselage w/ white stripe and silver wing w/ red starburst on
>top),
> Ace Spar Varnish (pt #16375), 674 pounds, radiator is width between
>cabanes and about 12" tall with top tank recessed in behind the leading
>edge,
> cowling is .025 2024 epoxy primer / red paint, detailed photo log and
>airframe / engine log, W&B taken care of by moving wing back 3 1/2" and
>14
>pound ballast (I weigh 200 lbs. after a bowel movement), E.W.C.G. is
>12.61"
>behind leading edge, engine problems taken care of - was ready for final
>inspection 2 months ago. Couldn't have done it without my partner, Doug
>Bryant !! Thank you Doug !!
>The FAA guy called me this morning, at 8:30, and agreed to meet me out at
>Benton Airpark for the final inspection. After over 2 hours of close
>inspection, and almost an hour of paperwork...
>I've got my AIRWORTHYNESS CERTIFICATE !!
>He paid many complements on workmanship & design...I've almost got him
>talked
>into building one !!
>Stay tuned...first flight coming up !!
>
>Chuck Gantzer
>Wichita KS
>NX770CG
>
>
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Silver powder |
----- Original Message -----
From: mark boynton
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Silver powder
All,
Mike Bell wrote:
more from Michael Brusilow
I painted my wings using Sherman Williams varnish as a
filler coat,
then
Sherman Williams latex paint with a mix of silver
powder.
The fuselage was painted with Stitts stuff. After 13
years, there is
very little difference.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
My question is, where does one get this silver powder?
Mark Boynton
Gilbert, AZ
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Don't remember where I got the Ag powder, but it is in any AV
catalogue.
By the way, correction,I didn't mix the Ag with the paint, but with
the reducer.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
Kip,
I see William's number as 904 451-3676 from his website, if it's different try
it.
You're entirely correct on the 180hp engine by the way. Why they went with both
a
turbo and four carbs is a mystery to me as well.
I have seen the valve problem in a non-turbo '65 though. The first engine I bought
a
couple of years ago had a dropped valve that chewed up the seat recess area and
valve
pretty bad. I was told it's a differential expansion thing and can happen in a
lot of
different air cooled motors if they are badly overheated.
That engine was not such a good deal by the way, it had sat out in the rain for
years.
When I got the quote for repairing the head and to considering a hydraulic press
to
push the pistons out of the barrels I gave up and donated almost half of it to
a local
landfill.
Larry
Kip & Beth Gardner wrote:
>
> List,
>
> Several good posts in the past 24 hours.
>
> Larry, get Wm's manual ASAP, it will clear up almost all questions. From
> what I've discovered talking to various Corvair enthusiasts, the valve drop
> problem is limited to the 180hp turbocharged models that came out in 1967
> or 1968. These engines are apparently pretty rare & if you luck into one,
> you would be better off selling it to a collector than trying to use it in
> an aircraft. You could probably cover a big hunk of the cost of a
> conversion by selling it. You can tell these engines from all the others
> because they have four (count 'em - FOUR) locations for carbuerators on the
> intake manifolds - no wonder Chevy couldn't afford to keep making them! A
> good way to find usable conversion engines is to get in touch with your
> local CORSA chapter; it's the national Corviar enthusiast's association.
> They have a national web page with a directory/links to local chapters. I
> have been in touch with the one in here in NE OH and have been assured that
> I will be able to find a suitable engine from one of their members when I
> am ready to. Each club seems to have at least one member who has a sizable
> stockpile of engines.
>
> Steve E's. archive post about latex paint pretty much follows an article
> that was published in KitPlanes a couple of years ago. I think the only
> major difference is that the author thinned his primer coats with a product
> called 'Floetrol' to aid fabric penetration and leveling. The author had
> done extensive testing over a 10-year period, and had some very specific
> information on things like the best rollers to use, results of putting test
> panels out in the weather for years, etc. If anyone wants a copy, send me a
> post off-list & I can dig out that issue and send it. Other sources I've
> seen recommend a periodic coat of 'Armorall' on top of the paint for
> waterproofing & added UV protection.
>
> For many of the cost, toxicity and durability issues mentioned over the
> past few days, I intend to use the latex paint method when the time comes.
>
> Finmally, does anyone have a current phone # for Wm. Wynne? The last one I
> have, now about 2 years old, doesn't seem to work anymore.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COZYPILOT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
The 180 HP turbo charged engine only has (2)carb intakes, (1) per head, the 140
HP engine has (4)--(2)per head. The problem is not with dropping valves, but
in dropping valve seats and can be a problem with any TC engine that has not
been properly redone.
Jim Dallas
CORSA Member
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
>
>The 180 HP turbo charged engine only has (2)carb intakes, (1) per head,
>the 140 HP engine has (4)--(2)per head. The problem is not with dropping
>valves, but in dropping valve seats and can be a problem with any TC
>engine that has not been properly redone.
>
>Jim Dallas
>CORSA Member
Jim, thanks for the clarification, I was speaking off the top of my head
instead of checking my references. When I read Larry's post, his reference
to valves registered in my head as 'valve seats' & I didn't think about it
further. I'd bet that's what Larry actually meant too.
I'm still pretty sure that Wm. Wynn recommends NOT using either of these
engines, or putting 140hp heads on a 110hp core, either. Basically, his # 1
choice is a 110hp model from 1965-67/68, with high compression-ratio heads
(the 9:1 heads, I believe). He has a very extensive section in his manual
on how to pick a good engine.
My understanding is that the correct fix to prevent dropping valve seats is
to perform an operation on them known as 'staking'. Do you have any better
suggestions?
BTW, there is another book out there, by Richard Finch, called 'Keeping
Your Corvair Alive' (or something like that, it's in storage right now, so
I can't check). Wm. Wynn recommends that anyone doing a conversion have a
copy, as well as the official Chevy shop manual. I would agree, it's
modestly priced, and has lots of good advice. Also, it has the proper
bolt-tightening sequence for re-tourqing the heads. Apparently, there is
something not quite right about the sequence the Chevy shop manual
recommends.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COZYPILOT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
There has been talk on the list lately (CORSA) of screw in valve seats, but I don't
know to much about them. Whatever you do--make sure its done by someone
who knows the engines to help prevent the problem!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COZYPILOT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
There has been talk on the list lately (CORSA) of screw in valve seats, but I don't
know to much about them. Whatever you do--make sure its done by someone
who knows the engines to help prevent the problem!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
Dropped seats, not valves, yes. For what it's worth I'd rather drop a seat than
a valve, you might get a decent chance to nurse it down. With a dropped valve
floating around in the cylinder, things will get exciting quick. Again, I
don't think this is a
Corvair specific thing, just the result of extreme overheating. The example I
found was non-turbo by the way.
My mistake on the 180hp engine though. The id page in my manual shows the turbo
motor with a cross-over intake runner. Not a good picture and it sure looks
like four carbs. I looked at it, thought I saw 4, and wondered why if you've
got boost.
It sounds to me that at aviating rpm four carbs would not do much other than add
weight. Adding carb heat to them all or plumbing to single carb it would also
be a mess. I don't think there is hope of using the stock carbs anyway, but
then I haven't gotten
around to ordering Wynnes conversion manual either. Gotta do that today.
Is anyone running stock carbs? Anyone care to share experience with Wynne's cam?
Larry
COZYPILOT(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> The 180 HP turbo charged engine only has (2)carb intakes, (1) per head, the 140
HP engine has (4)--(2)per head. The problem is not with dropping valves, but
in dropping valve seats and can be a problem with any TC engine that has not
been properly redone.
>
> Jim Dallas
> CORSA Member
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corviar Valves, Latex paint, Wynne phone #? |
"How to Keep Your Corvair Alive" Finch Books isbn# 0-9661457-0-4 You're right,
it's
pretty good and has hands-on advice regarding overhaul, including balancing.
Kip & Beth Gardner wrote:
>
> >
> >The 180 HP turbo charged engine only has (2)carb intakes, (1) per head,
> >the 140 HP engine has (4)--(2)per head. The problem is not with dropping
> >valves, but in dropping valve seats and can be a problem with any TC
> >engine that has not been properly redone.
> >
> >Jim Dallas
> >CORSA Member
>
> Jim, thanks for the clarification, I was speaking off the top of my head
> instead of checking my references. When I read Larry's post, his reference
> to valves registered in my head as 'valve seats' & I didn't think about it
> further. I'd bet that's what Larry actually meant too.
>
> I'm still pretty sure that Wm. Wynn recommends NOT using either of these
> engines, or putting 140hp heads on a 110hp core, either. Basically, his # 1
> choice is a 110hp model from 1965-67/68, with high compression-ratio heads
> (the 9:1 heads, I believe). He has a very extensive section in his manual
> on how to pick a good engine.
>
> My understanding is that the correct fix to prevent dropping valve seats is
> to perform an operation on them known as 'staking'. Do you have any better
> suggestions?
>
> BTW, there is another book out there, by Richard Finch, called 'Keeping
> Your Corvair Alive' (or something like that, it's in storage right now, so
> I can't check). Wm. Wynn recommends that anyone doing a conversion have a
> copy, as well as the official Chevy shop manual. I would agree, it's
> modestly priced, and has lots of good advice. Also, it has the proper
> bolt-tightening sequence for re-tourqing the heads. Apparently, there is
> something not quite right about the sequence the Chevy shop manual
> recommends.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Fwd: A message from William Wynne |
From: Pat Panzera <panzera(at)sierratel.com>
, "VW(at)lists.kz" , Q-List
Subject: corvaircraft: A message from William Wynne
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:36:36 -0800
===============================CorvAIRCRAFT===============================
Here's the official word on William's crash.
http://www.experimental-aviation.com/carb_ice.html
Please pass along the link as you see fit.
Thanks!
Pat
===============================CorvAIRCRAFT
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Aileron Control Cables |
Pieters
While setting up the aileron control cable routing, I find that the two
cables are contacting each other where they cross each other in the
cockpit. This is where they are leading from the stick control horns up
to the pulleys in the center section of the wing. Anyone else have the
same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
Will appreciate you comments
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, CO.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Control Cables |
Hi John. Mine touch there also. No indication of wear or freying in 125+
hours.
Jim
NX799JK
>From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Control Cables
>Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:50:11 -0700
>
>
>Pieters
>
>While setting up the aileron control cable routing, I find that the two
>cables are contacting each other where they cross each other in the
>cockpit. This is where they are leading from the stick control horns up
>to the pulleys in the center section of the wing. Anyone else have the
>same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
>
>Will appreciate you comments
>
>John Dilatush, NX114D
>Salida, CO.
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Aileron Control Cables |
Hi John,
I'm almost to the point of putting my centersection on and finding out if my
cables touch and fray. I have already begun wondering if there will be a
problem. If they do touch and wear, I think it would be a simple matter to
bend one of the horns on the torque tube slightly to allow the cables to
clear each other.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Dilatush
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Control Cables
Pieters
While setting up the aileron control cable routing, I find that the two
cables are contacting each other where they cross each other in the
cockpit. This is where they are leading from the stick control horns up
to the pulleys in the center section of the wing. Anyone else have the
same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
Will appreciate you comments
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, CO.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Larry wrote:
>It sounds to me that at aviating rpm four carbs would not do much
>other than add weight.
Yep. One carb can do it all, at our RPMs. If you want to use 4 carbs,
don't hook up the other three- just use them to help your Wo)
>Adding carb heat to them all or plumbing to single carb it would
>also be a mess.
Yep. No need; use the single-port heads, and mount the carb underneath.
>Is anyone running stock carbs?
I believe I've seen pictures of a Piet with a Corvair engine pretty much as
it came out of the car... blower fan, ignition, carbs on top, fuel pump,
everything. But if you have the Pietenpol manual from Don Pietenpol, there
is info there from BHP's experience with the Corvair when he first fitted it
to the airplane. Carburetion was one of the things that he fiddled and
diddled with, and he did not stay with the stock carbs. There are better
options. Dave Stroud up in Canada is running a Zenith off a motorcycle on
his Corvair in a Christavia, with good results. Many others are using the
Stromberg (as used in Cessna 120/140's, or other C-85 engines), and it's
well supported and can offer mixture control. The Ellison and
Supercarb-type throttle body units will work, but are spendy. But the stock
carbs are definitely not the approach of choice, and will most likely give
anyone fits in an airplane application.
>Anyone care to share experience with Wynne's cam?
The top choice right now is the OT-10 cam, and this is the one that William
has in his engine. This cam is/was an aftermarket product by "Otto", and is
one in a series (there is an OT-20, which is a warmer cam but of no benefit
in our application). This cam is available through Larry's Corvair Parts.
There has been lots and lots of testing and discussion, but William has gone
through lots of different ones and the OT-10 is the best. I am getting a
reground cam from Delta Camshafts (http://www.deltacam.com), a lower-cost
alternative to the OT-10 with similar performance. Depends on if you care
for reground or not. But either way- you can stick with the stock cam that
comes right out of the 164 CID, 110 HP engine and get honest decent power
and torque, or go with the OT-10 or Delta and get a bit better. In a Piet,
all it means is better climb-out and the ability to cruise "in the yellow"
and well past Vne at max power. William says his Piet was normally flown
quite a bit throttled-back at cruise. Really, BHP had it right when he
recommended not hopping up the Corvair... it's got plenty of HP in stock
form. Neither the OT-10 nor the Delta are race cams... they are street cams
with a profile that moves the curve to give better power lower down... which
is exactly where we operate the engine in our application.
There is much more information about all of this "frequently asked question"
stuff at http://www.flycorvair.com/corvair.html
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Chuck wrote:
>Pietenpol Aircamper - Model A engine... 674 pounds
>I've got my AIRWORTHYNESS CERTIFICATE !!
Hoo-yah! Nice going, sir. Photos? Photos!
This really points up the differences in how the airplanes can be built. As
posted here some months ago, the Piet that I was looking at,
Franklin-powered, weighs 803 lbs. empty. That's like carrying a 129 lb.
passenger *all the time*.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Control Cables |
Heat shrink tubing, installed PRIOR to nicopressing fittings on the ends of the
cables.
This stuff is available at electronic supply stores.
Greg Cardinal
>>> dilatush(at)amigo.net 01/10 3:50 AM >>>
Pieters
While setting up the aileron control cable routing, I find that the two
cables are contacting each other where they cross each other in the
cockpit. This is where they are leading from the stick control horns up
to the pulleys in the center section of the wing. Anyone else have the
same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
Will appreciate you comments
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, CO.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Yotz" <gyachts(at)kans.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron Control Cables |
I'm using a nylon tubing that fits loosely over the cables at the contact
point with heat shrink at both ends to hold it in place.
Greg
wish I had a heater hanger....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
Cardinal
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Control Cables
Heat shrink tubing, installed PRIOR to nicopressing fittings on the ends of
the cables.
This stuff is available at electronic supply stores.
Greg Cardinal
>>> dilatush(at)amigo.net 01/10 3:50 AM >>>
Pieters
While setting up the aileron control cable routing, I find that the two
cables are contacting each other where they cross each other in the
cockpit. This is where they are leading from the stick control horns up
to the pulleys in the center section of the wing. Anyone else have the
same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
Will appreciate you comments
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, CO.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Aileron Control Cables |
John---Like Jim Kinsella, I'm seeing no sign of wear or
fraying where those cables cross beneath the inst. panel.
Where I DID put some nylon tubing (the same stuff as I used
for my flexible pitot tube line) was behind the instruments where
I had some rubbing on the back of my compass and tach cable.
These have to be slipped on prior to nicopressing course.
I clear RTV'd the tops of these sheaths to the alum. going over the
instrument panel and used small tye-wraps to secure them to the
wood at the bottom of the panel. (just to hold them in position)
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron Control Cables |
Maybe just put a clear gasoline hose over one of the
cables, this will prevent them from wear.
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Jack Phillips wrote:
> Phillips"
>
> Hi John,
>
> I'm almost to the point of putting my centersection
> on and finding out if my
> cables touch and fray. I have already begun
> wondering if there will be a
> problem. If they do touch and wear, I think it
> would be a simple matter to
> bend one of the horns on the torque tube slightly to
> allow the cables to
> clear each other.
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of John
> Dilatush
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:50 AM
> To: Pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Control
> Cables
>
> Dilatush"
>
> Pieters
>
> While setting up the aileron control cable routing,
> I find that the two
> cables are contacting each other where they cross
> each other in the
> cockpit. This is where they are leading from the
> stick control horns up
> to the pulleys in the center section of the wing.
> Anyone else have the
> same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
>
> Will appreciate you comments
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, CO.
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Control Cables |
In a message dated 1/10/02 1:51:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dilatush(at)amigo.net writes:
> Pieters
>
> While setting up the aileron control cable routing, I find that the two
> cables are contacting each other where they cross each other in the
> cockpit. This is where they are leading from the stick control horns up
> to the pulleys in the center section of the wing. Anyone else have the
> same problem, and if so how did you solve it?
>
> Will appreciate you comments
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, CO.
>
>
>
John,
I build a 1/4" offset into the aileron control horn on the control torque
tube so the cables will miss each other. This is a similar concept to the
gear suspension strut offset. It makes sense, and I read it in an old
newsletter, can't remember the issue. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Rice" <ksrice(at)henderson.net> |
HAs anyone ever built a pietenpol out of aluminum?
Scott Rice
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Ed wrote [on the CorvAIRCRAFT list]:
>Those of you not familiar with this organization should check out
>their web site. http://www.sportaviation.org
>Their purpose is for people who want to get back to the grass roots
It's a nice little organization, and the publication, "To Fly", is pretty
good. It's not like Contact! in that it's not heavy into research and
development... as Ed says, it's for grassroots homebuilding and that sort of
info. Also no glitzy, glassy, glamour or high-bucks airplanes like in Sport
Aviation and the others.
And lots of Pietenpol stuff-!
Oscar Zuniga... SAA 1001
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
===============================CorvAIRCRAFT===============================
To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe corvaircraft" to"majordomo(at)usm.edu"
For help send "info corvaircraft" or "help" to "majordomo(at)usm.edu"
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> |
Hey! What's Contact!???
Is there an avaition publication I'm not recieving?
Barry Davis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: SAA
>
>
> Ed wrote [on the CorvAIRCRAFT list]:
> >Those of you not familiar with this organization should check out
> >their web site. http://www.sportaviation.org
> >Their purpose is for people who want to get back to the grass roots
>
> It's a nice little organization, and the publication, "To Fly", is pretty
> good. It's not like Contact! in that it's not heavy into research and
> development... as Ed says, it's for grassroots homebuilding and that sort
of
> info. Also no glitzy, glassy, glamour or high-bucks airplanes like in
Sport
> Aviation and the others.
>
> And lots of Pietenpol stuff-!
>
> Oscar Zuniga... SAA 1001
> Medford, Oregon
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
> Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ===============================CorvAIRCRAFT===============================
> To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe corvaircraft" to"majordomo(at)usm.edu"
> For help send "info corvaircraft" or "help" to "majordomo(at)usm.edu"
>
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, Oregon
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
> Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tommy & Carolyn" <TommyandCarolyn(at)centurytel.net> |
Very helpful, thanks Steve.
Tommy
> Thanks to Gary Meadows for doing the search, This one is a keeper if you
> think you might be going the latex route. I reread it and discovered
things
> I forgot doing!
>
> Thanks Gary!
>
> Latex Paint over Fabric
>
>> including poly-fiber cements and coatings were less than $500. I doubt
it
> will be an award winner for fine finish, but it will be inexpensive,
> durable, non-toxic, and protective for as long as I fly it. An added
> benefit is that I always have the option of spraying an auto finish right
> over the top if I want too.Hope this is of some use.
>
> Steve E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Contact! magazine |
Barry wrote:
>Hey! What's Contact!???
>Is there an avaition publication I'm not recieving?
Contact! is a bimonthly publication dedicated to experimental aviation
research and development. No advertising. Black and white photos. Check
it out at http://www.nonprofitnet.com/contact/
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
John wrote:
>I find that the two cables are contacting each other where they
>cross each other in the cockpit.
>Will appreciate your comments
There's a fairly decent photo of this at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets3.html and is about the 7th photo
down. I believe these are touching, but they have no rub protection and
don't seem to be the worse for wear after (I believe) 700+ hours.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Sheets" <doug_sheets(at)hotmail.com> |
Thanks Oscar -- The SAA looks like a great organization for those of us that
want to get back to the basics. I just joined and am looking forward to the
Piet articles.
Doug S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Aileron Control Cables |
Pieters,
Thank you all very much for your comments to my request about aileron
control cables touching.
Several good solutions have been offered and I appreciate them very
much.
Thanks again,
John Dilatush NX114D
Salida, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Tuckerman" <ws133b341(at)home.com> |
I've been reading with great interest all the recent discussions about
chemical safety as it applies to glues and solvents. I believe all
those who recommend considerable caution when using these materials are
right on target. Corky, you mentioned butyrate as a possibly less
hazardous covering system. Be careful here; I had an A&P instructor who
felt butyrate dope thinner was just about the most effective solvent you
could find, as it contains MEK plus may other solvents. Always have
lots of ventilation using that stuff.
Regarding T-88 glue, I also have some of the same concerns as other
group members. With that in mind, has anyone formed a definitive
opinion regarding Gorilla Glue, Elmer's ProBond, or other similar
one-part polyurethane glues as being suitable or not suitable for use in
primary aircraft structure? It's advertised as waterproof, has some
gap-filling properties, and is easier to work with than T-88. As long
as it consistently makes a joint where the wood separates before the
glue, why not? Anyone know of an aircraft flying with Gorilla Glue?
Has anyone gotten any input from the FAA on polyurethane glue? Anyone
done any testing with this stuff?
Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
>Regarding T-88 glue, I also have some of the same concerns as other
>group members. With that in mind, has anyone formed a definitive
>opinion regarding Gorilla Glue, Elmer's ProBond, or other similar
>one-part polyurethane glues as being suitable or not suitable for use in
>primary aircraft structure? It's advertised as waterproof, has some
>gap-filling properties, and is easier to work with than T-88. As long
>as it consistently makes a joint where the wood separates before the
>glue, why not? Anyone know of an aircraft flying with Gorilla Glue?
>Has anyone gotten any input from the FAA on polyurethane glue? Anyone
>done any testing with this stuff?
>
>Ted
Ted,
I don't know anything about 'Gorilla Glue' per se, but Andrew Pietenpol,
(Bernie's Grandson) is building a new Piet using a 1-part polyurethane glue
that comes in tubes of the kind that go into a caulking gun. He told me
that he felt that it would be stronger than the wood fibers, about as
impervious as epoxies to deterioration, and has some gap-filling
properties. I don't remember the brand.
I know most of us want to do the safest thing we can & so tend to stay with
what's tried & true, but when I think about how many countless thousands of
aircraft were built and flown before the chemical revolution, using good
old Casein glue, I can't help but wonder if just about any modern,
high-quality, water-resistant glue isn't better & longer lasting than the
old stuff. Hell, plain old Elmer's or Titebond is probably better!
An aside message to Mark Boynton - I found the painting article in
Kitplanes (1997) and another one by the same guy that I got off the web
(1999) where he had made some changes in procedures and recommended paints.
Looking back over the articles, what he was recommending was latex primer
coats, followed by polyurethane finish coats (house paint). I'll get both
copies in the mail as soon as I get by the copy place. I tried to reply to
your personal address, but it bounced for some reason.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | What is Elmer's Glue, really? |
Is not the old plain white elmer's glue-all formerly made by Borden with
the Elsie the Cow logo casein glue? I know Borden sold it to Elmer's
Products Inc. but I do believe it is the old casein glue. Can any old
timers confirm or deny this?
Chris Bobka
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/9/02 10:18:57 AM Central Standard Time,
windmill602a(at)hotmail.com writes:
<< Will we see you at Brodhead this summer? Do you have any
photo's of your bird on line somewhere where we can see them? >>
It would be 'Way Cool' to make it to Broadhead this summer, especially in the
Piet!! I don't have any pictures on line, yet, but I have all the pictures
scanned in my computer, and plan on putting them on a web site, sometime.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What is Elmer's Glue, really? |
Chris,
I don't know what Elmer's Glue is made from, but the casein
glue we used in the late forties and early fifties came in pow-
der form which was mixed very carefully with water. It was the
"approved" glue for sticking together the many wooden parts
in the DH 82 Tiger Moth we had at the technical school I at-
tended---and all the other wooden airplanes at that time.
My recollection is that it wasn't white, but was a (sort-of) light
brown color. If I still have my old notes on aircraft materials, I
may be able to get some more information. It was a derivative
of milk and could supply nourishment to "bugs" as a result. It
was not waterproof and this was a major disadvantage. I be-
lieve I used it only once to make a repair after leaving technical
school in 1951. Weldwood Resorcinal became THE glue to
use thereafter. As someone pointed out, just about any good
modern glue will likely be better than the old casein stuff. If El-
mer's is indeed casein glue, I wouldn't use it on airplanes to-
day.
No doubt, someone will be able to better answer your question
about Elmer's, and I will be interested in reading what they say.
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What is Elmer's Glue, really? |
No, Elmers is not casein glue. Totally different stuff.
----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Bobka <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: What is Elmer's Glue, really?
>
> Is not the old plain white elmer's glue-all formerly made by Borden with
> the Elsie the Cow logo casein glue?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: What is Elmer's Glue, really? |
And Totally UNACCEPTABLE for aircraft structure.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What is Elmer's Glue, really?
No, Elmers is not casein glue. Totally different stuff.
----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Bobka <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: What is Elmer's Glue, really?
>
> Is not the old plain white elmer's glue-all formerly made by Borden with
> the Elsie the Cow logo casein glue?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
A more complete answer.
Casein glue is made from dehydrated milk curds which have been ground to a
white or cream colored powder. It was first introduced during the WWI era.
While the strength of a glue bond of any kind of glue depends on the
material, fit of the joint, cleanliness of the surface, the pressure
applied, atmospheric conditions, etc., casein glue develops a bond capable
of withstanding a shear stress well over 250 lbs. per square inch.
Although this glue is often called waterproof, this is not strictly correct.
It is, rather, water-resistant and the strength of the glue in a wet shear
test is still over 125 lbs. per square inch after being soaked on cold water
for 48 hours.
Casein glue is a cold water glue, meaning that it is mixed for use with cold
water (70 degrees F) and can be applied to cold lumber with equally good
effects. These two items add greatly to the convenience of the glue. The
fact that a very small quantity can be mixed at one time, and that it does
not have to be used immediately, and that unmixed powder can be kept over a
long period of time, if kept away from moisture, makes casein glue a very
economical glue. The required drying time is somewhat greater than other
glues, taking 24 to 48 hours to dry completely, but can be worked safely
after having been in clamps for 12 hours.
All of the above came from the book "Aircraft Maintenance" by Brimm &
Boggess (1940). Having said all of this, I doubt any of us could find any
real casein glue today. The Weldwood plastic resin powdered glue has all of
the same qualities but is even more water resistant. That is what I use
exclusively because it is cheap and incredibly easy to work. The very idea
of using a glue because it has "gap filling qualities" makes me scared
because the fit between the parts should be better than that.
As an aside, the wings and tail of my 1928 Travel Air are all made with
casein glue that is 74 years old now. During the restoration I found the
joints completely sound, and I fly aerobatics regularly with it with no
adverse effects that I have found on any inspection.
Gene Rambo
talking wayyy too much
and not working enough on the Piet
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Gerry Yarrish ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Gerry Yarrish
Subject: 1/3-scale Aircamper Model from Full-Sized Plans...
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/gerryy@airage.com.01.12.2002/index.html
--------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What is Elmer's Glue, really? |
>
>And Totally UNACCEPTABLE for aircraft structure.
>
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Cy,
Thanks for making the point; I was not suggesting that anyone should use
Elmer's glue in aircraft, just an observation on how much adhesives
technology has advanced over the years ('A Better Chance of Survival
Through Chemistry'?). I'm going to 'stick' with T-88 or Aeropoxy for the
remainder of the work on the project I bought. Yes, there are some toxicity
concerns, but nothing like the solvent issues we all discussed a few days
ago.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/11/02 |
| From: | Richard A Hartwig <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> |
I have done some limited testing of various glues by gluing up samples of
ply to spruce and letting them cure for a couple of days. After about
one hour of boiling in water the joints with Elmer's white glue (it is
not casein), Elmer's yellow Carpenter glue, "water resistant" Titebond II
pulled apart. Joints made with West System epoxy and joints made with
Gorilla brand urethane one part stayed together. I did this testing to
see which glues I wanted to eliminate from consideration. If you are
using anything other than resorcinol I would do further testing. Gorilla
Glue and the other one part urethane glues have gap filling capability,
BUT THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE STRENGTH WHEN FILLING GAPS, the gap fill
consists of urethane foam. I would be interested in hearing from anyone
else who is doing any testing of glues.
Dick Hartwig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com> |
Gorilla Glue is a very strong and water proof glue.
It is also a very brittle glue once dry.
If you punish a glued piece it will shatter at the glue joint.
I would do a lot of testing before I would trust it in a plane.
It's great for outdoor furniture.
Dale
Just spent the last 5 days ice boating . The ice was good and the wind
was blowing.
Built a prop for the Pete 13 layers of 1/4" Black Walnut & Maple.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What is Elmer's Glue, really? |
Cy and Kip,
Not that I would use Casein glue today, I just always thought that Elmer's
Glue had its basis in the old Casein formula. I guess that is untrue from
the responses.
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What is Elmer's Glue, really?
>
> >
> >And Totally UNACCEPTABLE for aircraft structure.
> >
> >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> >Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> >cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Cy,
>
> Thanks for making the point; I was not suggesting that anyone should use
> Elmer's glue in aircraft, just an observation on how much adhesives
> technology has advanced over the years ('A Better Chance of Survival
> Through Chemistry'?). I'm going to 'stick' with T-88 or Aeropoxy for the
> remainder of the work on the project I bought. Yes, there are some
toxicity
> concerns, but nothing like the solvent issues we all discussed a few days
> ago.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear question... |
I am interested in the landing gear on the Pietenpol. I like the gear as
seen in this picture:
http://www.mykitplane.com/pietenpolGear.cfm. Is this the design that comes
with the original plans?
Thanks.
Regards,
Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
MyKitPlane.com
EAA 665957
gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
http://www.mykitplane.com
"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
Gary,
This aircraft is Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy and I talked to him about the
landing gear at Brodhead a few years ago.
There are three fuselages that Bernard published a drawing for. One is the
one shown in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual for the Air Camper (not the
"new and improved"). It has a wooden Jenny-style gear.
The second is for the 1933 "new and improved" Air Camper with the cub style
steel tube landing gear (really the cub style gear copies the piet since the
piet was first).
The third is the fuselage Bernard Pietenpol developed for the corvair
powered piet. No landing gear is shown for this fuselage. It is perfectly
acceptable to mount any acceptable engine on this fueslage. You are not
limited to the corvair. I will refer to this fuselage as the "long
fuselage". It is desireable to use the long fueslage because it is about 7
inches longer than the 1933 "new and improved" Air Camper and the 1932 Air
Camper. You fit better in the longer cockpit. Frank Pavliga used the long
fuselage for sky gypsy and it originally had a Model A Ford but now has a
Continental A-65.
The problem is that the long fuselage shifts the loaded center of gravity
aft quite a bit. Aerodynamically, this is compensated for by shifting the
wing aft. There is no problem here. The problem is that if you take
the1932 wood gear and put it on the long fuselage, the wheels are too far
forward. Frank Pavliga did not realize this or otherwise ignored this fact
for the first set of gear made for the sky gypsy. The wheels were so far
forward that he had much difficulty in getting the tail to raise on takeoff.
The airplane ON THE GROUND was far too tail heavy. He built a second set of
wooden gear legs that shifted the axle back (maybe 5 or 6 inches) and this
distributed the weight more appropriately forward and aft of the axle so
that the plane handled better on the ground. This can be clearly seen when
comparing the photo you posted with the 1932 gear drawings.
As an aside, there is a big old lead weight that is tied to one of sky
gypsy's motor mount tubes indicating that it was easier to intstall the
wieght than to mess with tweaking the rigging of the wings if it is there
for aerodynamic purposes or making a new set of gear legs if it is there for
wieght distribution for ground handling.
Maybe some of the local Ohio boys on the list like Mike Cuy can clue you in
better than me since they are more familiar with sky gypsy since it lives in
Ohio.
Greg Cardinal and Dale Johnson have moved the axle on their wooden gear aft
on their yet to fly long fuselage A-65 powered ship. Dale has the number at
his fingertips and hopefully will post a note here with the figure.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
> I am interested in the landing gear on the Pietenpol. I like the gear as
> seen in this picture:
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/pietenpolGear.cfm. Is this the design that comes
> with the original plans?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
> MyKitPlane.com
> EAA 665957
> gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
> http://www.mykitplane.com
>
> "What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
>
> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
> a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his
plane.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
> I am interested in the landing gear on the Pietenpol. I like the gear as
> seen in this picture:
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/pietenpolGear.cfm. Is this the design that comes
> with the original plans?
>
> Gary,
The plane pictured was built by Frank Pavliga and his son (also Frank) about
15 years ago. The landing gear is the one that was published in the 1932
issue of "Flying and Glider Manual". There is a reprinted series of these
manuals available from the EAA.
Sky Gypsy was originally powered with a Model A engine, but the Pavliga's
changed it later to a Continental engine as shown in your picture. The rims
are 18" motorcyle units using homemade hubs I believe. I called Frank, (the
younger one) several years ago and he said that in order for the wheels to
be truer to scale, you should use 19" rims. I have no idea why the
registration is changed because Frank said the plane was part of the family
and would never be sold!
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, Colorado
=======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Gerry wrote:
>1/3-scale Aircamper Model from Full-Sized Plans...
>http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/gerryy@airage.com.01.12.2002/index.html
Very nice! Excellent detail. I note that a good percentage, probably more
than half, of homebuilders have experience building models. Some started
that way as youths, others as adults, and some continue to "play" this way
(the Byron fly-in competition, etc.) well past the age when they know better
;o) But your Piet is a beauty, Gerry.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
Just when I think I have found and avoided all of the errors in the
drawings, I run into another snag. Just as I was about to glue up the final
tail surface today (vertical fin) my one last measurement (my "measure
twenty times, cut only three" method) I realized that the distances for the
rudder and fin do not match up. It is too complicated to explain unless one
of you has seen it, but the fin will have to be 1/2" taller than the plans
call for for it to fit correctly and make the bottom of the rudder line up
with the bottom of the fuselage. Anyone have any idea what I am talking
about?
Gene Rambo
trying to finish SOMETHING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
Gene Don't feel bad mine's the same way ..... I plan to shave a
1/4" off the top and bottom of the rudder at the front corners and fair
it in. I have already drilled my mounting holes or I would just glue a
strip of spruce on the bottom of the vert. stab. The plans call call for
the 1/4" strips to run all the way to the tail post on the
bottom of the Fuselage but I didn't run them that far back so there's
half of my 1/2". Maybe someone out there has a better idea, I've heard
of others having the same problem Ed G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
In a message dated 1/13/02 12:51:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rambog(at)erols.com writes:
> Just when I think I have found and avoided all of the errors in the
> drawings, I run into another snag. Just as I was about to glue up the
> final
> tail surface today (vertical fin) my one last measurement (my "measure
> twenty times, cut only three" method) I realized that the distances for the
> rudder and fin do not match up. It is too complicated to explain unless
> one
> of you has seen it, but the fin will have to be 1/2" taller than the plans
> call for for it to fit correctly and make the bottom of the rudder line up
> with the bottom of the fuselage. Anyone have any idea what I am talking
> about?
>
>
> Gene Rambo
> trying to finish SOMETHING
>
>
>
Gene,
I just let the 1/2 inch hang below the tail post; works fine. The Scout I
building now comes out 7/8 inch too short, but it to will work just fine
also. The plans were drawn from a finished airplane, so there are some small
errors, but there is plenty of information to get the idea and build a really
good plane. I sure enjoy mine. The plane they were drawn from is in the
museum at Oshkosh. It is the Model A powered one.
Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
Dale,
How did the prop carving go? Did you use a duplicator or carve by the
numbers? I'd like to hear more as I may be needing to do the same at
some point. I haven't had our prop checked out yet. I'm sure yours in
a beauty -- any pictures you or Greg could post?
Kirk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Butcher <rbutch(at)inreach.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
Gary...
You might also want to get a copy of Mike Cuy's most excellent video that he made
on
the construction of his Piet. He speaks to a lot of the details as well as quite
a
bit of video on the details of that type of gear.
Ron Butcher
Turlock,Cal
Still working on fuselage
"Gary McNeel, Jr." wrote:
>
> I am interested in the landing gear on the Pietenpol. I like the gear as
> seen in this picture:
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/pietenpolGear.cfm. Is this the design that comes
> with the original plans?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
> MyKitPlane.com
> EAA 665957
> gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
> http://www.mykitplane.com
>
> "What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
>
> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
> a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
> Gene Don't feel bad mine's the same way . . . Ed G.
>
>
Hey, I don't feel bad yet because I held off glueing today. I'll just have
to make another fin spar because I already cut it to length. Besides, I did
not leave enough excess on the top of the fin to make the curve continue up
from the top of the rudder before it curves back down (the fin spar needs to
be taller than the rudder to allow for this, not shown in the plans).
By the way, the various plans show the upper tail brace wire fitting in two
different locations, both above the top rib of the fin (too close to the
hinge bolts if you ask me) and much lower below the top rib. What is the
consensus?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear question... |
Wow. What a list. Thank you all for your comments. I am very close to
ordering the plans. I lost my job and feared I would have trouble finding a
new one. No problem though, so onward ho.
I originally thought of building the Wolf Boredom Fighter (and still may,
later). Then I stumbled on the Air Camper and that was it, I fell in love. I
can share the experience with many more people now.
I think I will be using a Corvair engine and plan on attending Corvair
College in FL in May, if I can, new job and all. If not this year, next.
Sorry the purists of you out there, but the Model A is just not right for
me. BTW - Here is my dad's 31 Model A Tudor Sedan hotrod just after we
painted it.
I really look forward to meeting you guys in the future and I am sure I will
have plenty of questions to ask.
-Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
Gene,
Ideally, and without fearing too much material being removed, the location
should be as close to the hing point as possible to transfer the large load
from a deflected rudder to the support wires that ultimately tie the load to
the fuselage at the wire attach point at the bottom of the fuselage.
If the hinge was located far away, then it would impose a side load on the
vertical stabilizer spar/trailing member which would have to be transferred
up or down to the support wire.
The ideal fitting would colocate, using metal to metal contact, the hinge
and the brace wire fitting.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: vertical fin problem
>
> > Gene Don't feel bad mine's the same way . . . Ed G.
> >
> >
> Hey, I don't feel bad yet because I held off glueing today. I'll just
have
> to make another fin spar because I already cut it to length. Besides, I
did
> not leave enough excess on the top of the fin to make the curve continue
up
> from the top of the rudder before it curves back down (the fin spar needs
to
> be taller than the rudder to allow for this, not shown in the plans).
>
> By the way, the various plans show the upper tail brace wire fitting in
two
> different locations, both above the top rib of the fin (too close to the
> hinge bolts if you ask me) and much lower below the top rib. What is the
> consensus?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi friends
Hi Gene, I made the the complete tail group how the
plans call for, i put the pieces on the table for
check, and the rudder looked taller, about 3/8 to 1/2,
but when you have all parts on the fuselage, the
hinges give them a little gap that help to much, just
i have to file about 3/16 on the bottom on the rudder,
i would like to suggest you this, before you make some
changes on the rudder, firs check it on the tail
assembly with the hinges..
good luck
Javier Cruz
Saludos de Mexico
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
I found the same thing, Gene. It actually doesn't end up being quite 1/2"
taller than the 31" shown on the plans. I just measured mine and it is
about 31-3/8". The actual height will vary depending on the hinge gap you
have between the rudder and the fin.
What I did was to build the fin last (as you have). After building the
rudder, lay it on your workbench and lay out pencil lines representing the
top and bottom of the fueslage and the tail post. Then position the rudder
the exact distance aft of the tail post that it will be when hanging on its
hinges. Lay a straightedge along the top edge of the rudder and draw a line
from the top forward edge of the rudder along this straightedge to well
forward of the position of the vertical fin trailing edge. Now you know
where the top of the vertical fin must be, and can modify the plans
accordingly.
This is the procedure I used, and it seemed to work well. After assembling
the fuselage and landing gear, I wish I had positioned the rudder up another
3/16" or so. It would not be noticeable from an aesthetic point of view and
it would give more clearance between the bottom of the rudder and the
tailwheel spring (I'm using a conventional tailwheel spring, not the BHP
design - probably a bad choice on my part). Unless my flying skills
improve, I expect sooner or later to smite the ground hard enough to deflect
the tailwheel spring into the rudder and put a dent in it.
Good luck,
Jack Phillips
Finishing the Turtledeck this week
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: vertical fin problem
Just when I think I have found and avoided all of the errors in the
drawings, I run into another snag. Just as I was about to glue up the final
tail surface today (vertical fin) my one last measurement (my "measure
twenty times, cut only three" method) I realized that the distances for the
rudder and fin do not match up. It is too complicated to explain unless one
of you has seen it, but the fin will have to be 1/2" taller than the plans
call for for it to fit correctly and make the bottom of the rudder line up
with the bottom of the fuselage. Anyone have any idea what I am talking
about?
Gene Rambo
trying to finish SOMETHING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Woodflier(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RE: Rudder/fin measurements |
Just when I think I have found and avoided all of the errors in the
drawings, I run into another snag. Just as I was about to glue up the final
tail surface today (vertical fin) my one last measurement (my "measure
twenty times, cut only three" method) I realized that the distances for the
rudder and fin do not match up. It is too complicated to explain unless one
of you has seen it, but the fin will have to be 1/2" taller than the plans
call for for it to fit correctly and make the bottom of the rudder line up
with the bottom of the fuselage. Anyone have any idea what I am talking
about?
Gene Rambo
trying to finish SOMETHING
Gene, as luck would have it, I just finished my rudder last night, so I'm
very familiar with what you're saying. I clamped the verrtical fin
temporarily in place, with the horizontal stabilizer shimmed level, and found
the measurement for the rudder leading edge to be off 1/4 inch, with the
rudder l/e clamped directly to the fin trailing edge and tailpost. However,
the rudder hinges put the leading edge of the rudder farther aft, and with
the downslping rudder top and upsloping bottom, another 1/4" needed to come
off, so, your measurements and mine agree. The plans call for 43 1/2" for the
rudder leading edge; mine came out a shade over 43".
Matt Paxton
woodflier(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Chris wrote:
>The problem is that if you take the 1932 wood gear and put it on the
>long fuselage, the wheels are too far forward.
A little table-top graphical analysis (or CAD, if you have it) will help
with analysis of this problem. Tony Bingelis addresses this in one of his
books with a graphic that shows an angular relationship between the axle,
the wing leading edge, and CG (I believe), and gives an acceptable range for
this angle, to give good handling. Chris- you have Tony's books all
committed to memory- is it "Sportplane Builder" where I saw this? Of course
there are many other factors involved, but this graphical "check" can help
identify an obvious problem with axle placement.
One unrelated issue that I have yet to see an answer to is the forward limit
for CG on the Piet. The aft limit has been clearly defined, but not the
forward limit (that I've seen). My guess is that the way pilots are aware
of flying at or near forward limit is that they run out of back stick at
flare. Anyone have any practical experience (or know of a stated forward CG
limit)?
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
The axel on our plane is 19" aft of the firewall.
Greg Cardinal
>>> bobka(at)charter.net 01/13 11:48 AM >>>
Gary,
This aircraft is Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy and I talked to him about the
landing gear at Brodhead a few years ago.
There are three fuselages that Bernard published a drawing for. One is the
one shown in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual for the Air Camper (not the
"new and improved"). It has a wooden Jenny-style gear.
The second is for the 1933 "new and improved" Air Camper with the cub style
steel tube landing gear (really the cub style gear copies the piet since the
piet was first).
The third is the fuselage Bernard Pietenpol developed for the corvair
powered piet. No landing gear is shown for this fuselage. It is perfectly
acceptable to mount any acceptable engine on this fueslage. You are not
limited to the corvair. I will refer to this fuselage as the "long
fuselage". It is desireable to use the long fueslage because it is about 7
inches longer than the 1933 "new and improved" Air Camper and the 1932 Air
Camper. You fit better in the longer cockpit. Frank Pavliga used the long
fuselage for sky gypsy and it originally had a Model A Ford but now has a
Continental A-65.
The problem is that the long fuselage shifts the loaded center of gravity
aft quite a bit. Aerodynamically, this is compensated for by shifting the
wing aft. There is no problem here. The problem is that if you take
the1932 wood gear and put it on the long fuselage, the wheels are too far
forward. Frank Pavliga did not realize this or otherwise ignored this fact
for the first set of gear made for the sky gypsy. The wheels were so far
forward that he had much difficulty in getting the tail to raise on takeoff.
The airplane ON THE GROUND was far too tail heavy. He built a second set of
wooden gear legs that shifted the axle back (maybe 5 or 6 inches) and this
distributed the weight more appropriately forward and aft of the axle so
that the plane handled better on the ground. This can be clearly seen when
comparing the photo you posted with the 1932 gear drawings.
As an aside, there is a big old lead weight that is tied to one of sky
gypsy's motor mount tubes indicating that it was easier to intstall the
wieght than to mess with tweaking the rigging of the wings if it is there
for aerodynamic purposes or making a new set of gear legs if it is there for
wieght distribution for ground handling.
Maybe some of the local Ohio boys on the list like Mike Cuy can clue you in
better than me since they are more familiar with sky gypsy since it lives in
Ohio.
Greg Cardinal and Dale Johnson have moved the axle on their wooden gear aft
on their yet to fly long fuselage A-65 powered ship. Dale has the number at
his fingertips and hopefully will post a note here with the figure.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
> I am interested in the landing gear on the Pietenpol. I like the gear as
> seen in this picture:
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/pietenpolGear.cfm. Is this the design that comes
> with the original plans?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
> MyKitPlane.com
> EAA 665957
> gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
> http://www.mykitplane.com
>
> "What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
>
> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
> a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his
plane.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: vertical fin problem |
I do know what you are talking about. It's easy enough to just live with a rudder
that hangs a half inch below the fuselage.
There are lots of other things back there like tailskids and springs to make it
a non-issue.
Greg Cardinal
>>> rambog(at)erols.com 01/13 3:22 PM >>>
Just when I think I have found and avoided all of the errors in the
drawings, I run into another snag. Just as I was about to glue up the final
tail surface today (vertical fin) my one last measurement (my "measure
twenty times, cut only three" method) I realized that the distances for the
rudder and fin do not match up. It is too complicated to explain unless one
of you has seen it, but the fin will have to be 1/2" taller than the plans
call for for it to fit correctly and make the bottom of the rudder line up
with the bottom of the fuselage. Anyone have any idea what I am talking
about?
Gene Rambo
trying to finish SOMETHING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
> >.
> The airplane ON THE GROUND was far too tail heavy. He built a second set
of
> wooden gear legs that shifted the axle back (maybe 5 or 6 inches) and this
> distributed the weight more appropriately forward and aft of the axle so
> that the plane handled better on the ground. This can be clearly seen
when
> comparing the photo you posted with the 1932 gear drawings.
>
> Chris,
With reference to the question of landing gear location, I can refer you to
Thurstons book "Design For Flying". He states that the correct position for
the gear relative to the CG should be 16.5 degrees foward with the airframe
in a level attitude.
This is true if you have brakes, however might even be back a little way if
you are without brakes. Generally speaking, a conventional gear that is too
far foward is more prone to ground looping tendencies.
Unfortunately, my gear is set at only about 11 degrees forward of the CG,
and I am concerned about being too aggressive with the brakes. Empty, my
plane only has about 6 pounds on the tail wheel, although the CG is at about
17" aft of the leading edge of the wing. Might have to move the gear foward
somehow, or gain some weight!
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rudder/fin measurements |
I have received a lot of responses to my question. Most people correct the
discrepancy depending on which component was finished first. Because my fin
is being built last, I am just going to make the fin a little taller by
measuring the height of the fuselage tailpost and horiz stab and building
the fin to the top of the rudder.
Like I said, I will have to make the fin spar a little taller on top, too,
to make the top contour of the rudder continue forward before sloping down
(also not shown on the drawing, which suggests the top of the fin spar is
even with the top of the rudder spar . . .not so). It is interesting to
look at all of the photos on aircamper.org and notice how many fins have a
small piece added to the top of the spar for this very reason. By the way,
all of my measurements and comments have taken into account the hinge gap
between the fin and rudder.
I have seen mention on here several times about making a complete list of
the small errors in the drawings, like this example. Has anyone ever
attempted such a list? And, please, I am not trying to start a debate about
the quality of the drawings. I know that they are appropriately vague in
some areas and leave room for creativity, and I think that is a good thing,
but it would still be good to know where the small glitches are.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | gear and wing location relative to CG |
Oscar,
My references are an article in Sport Aviation from the mid 60s and the
book on Landing Gear Design, Vol 1 by Pazmany. I have never seen vol 2
but Pazmany refers to it in vol 1. If someone needs a copy of the
articles let me know.
Chris bobka
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Wood Grain Question |
Hi Pieters!
This is for all the smart guys out there. I plan to use
Western Red Cedar for my ribs, and picked out a few 1 x 6 boards at Loews
this weekend. The grain in all boards is straight, over 8 rings per inch,
slope is great, no knots, really nice boards.
I understand grain should be as perpendicular to the flat
wide surface as possible, between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Most grain on
these boards are closer to 90 than 45. Except one.
One board has grain parallel to the wide, flat surface. Can this
board be used for capstrip?
I'm thinking I just make the cuts on this board opposite , and when
it's done, turn it 90 degrees, and how will this capstrip be different than
the rest? All the strips will look the same, with grain running the same
direction. Does it matter where the strip originally came from in the
board?
Am I thinking this through correctly?
Kent
Looking to make some sawdust
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rudder/fin measurements |
Good thoughts Gene,
I've been thinking about the archives. There's a lot of great stuff in
there, but hard to sort out.
What do you all think of bouncing our regular suggestions around and
when a consensus is reached, or someone takes time to set down a good
technique, we use something like "Building Tips - Tail" in the subject
line and send it out one final time.
I can think of some categories like "Suppliers", "Plan Errors", "Engine"
etc. that would be useful and easy to spot in searches.
Also, I lurk on the engines list and have seen people use "Do not
archive" in the tag line. Does anyone know if this works? If it does,
we might want to consider using it to save disk space for our benevolent
patron.
Larry
Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>I have received a lot of responses to my question. Most people correct the
>discrepancy depending on which component was finished first. Because my fin
>is being built last, I am just going to make the fin a little taller by
>measuring the height of the fuselage tailpost and horiz stab and building
>the fin to the top of the rudder.
>
>Like I said, I will have to make the fin spar a little taller on top, too,
>to make the top contour of the rudder continue forward before sloping down
>(also not shown on the drawing, which suggests the top of the fin spar is
>even with the top of the rudder spar . . .not so). It is interesting to
>look at all of the photos on aircamper.org and notice how many fins have a
>small piece added to the top of the spar for this very reason. By the way,
>all of my measurements and comments have taken into account the hinge gap
>between the fin and rudder.
>
>I have seen mention on here several times about making a complete list of
>the small errors in the drawings, like this example. Has anyone ever
>attempted such a list? And, please, I am not trying to start a debate about
>the quality of the drawings. I know that they are appropriately vague in
>some areas and leave room for creativity, and I think that is a good thing,
>but it would still be good to know where the small glitches are.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Williams" <fax(at)amteccontrol.com> |
Was looking for a good source for a spruce kit. Called AS&S and the
order taker was not sure what in the kit and what stage of work it's in.
Western had what sounded like a good kit but was much higher that AS&S.
What would you do if you had to do it over again ???
Thanks for a great source of info for us beginners !!
Thanks Gang,
Craig in SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Wood Grain Question |
The grain orientation is determined how it is sawn out of the log. You can
as you indicated, re-orient it by re-sawing. The new board won't know the
difference and will perform just as well as the other stock.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Old Shop Teacher.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)governair.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood Grain Question
Hi Pieters!
This is for all the smart guys out there. I plan to use
Western Red Cedar for my ribs, and picked out a few 1 x 6 boards at Loews
this weekend. The grain in all boards is straight, over 8 rings per inch,
slope is great, no knots, really nice boards.
I understand grain should be as perpendicular to the flat
wide surface as possible, between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Most grain on
these boards are closer to 90 than 45. Except one.
One board has grain parallel to the wide, flat surface. Can this
board be used for capstrip?
I'm thinking I just make the cuts on this board opposite , and when
it's done, turn it 90 degrees, and how will this capstrip be different than
the rest? All the strips will look the same, with grain running the same
direction. Does it matter where the strip originally came from in the
board?
Am I thinking this through correctly?
Kent
Looking to make some sawdust
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wood Grain Question |
In a message dated 1/14/02 11:01:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
KHallsten(at)governair.com writes:
> Hi Pieters!
>
> This is for all the smart guys out there. I plan to use
> Western Red Cedar for my ribs, and picked out a few 1 x 6 boards at Loews
> this weekend. The grain in all boards is straight, over 8 rings per inch,
> slope is great, no knots, really nice boards.
>
> I understand grain should be as perpendicular to the flat
> wide surface as possible, between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Most grain on
> these boards are closer to 90 than 45. Except one.
>
> One board has grain parallel to the wide, flat surface. Can this
> board be used for capstrip?
>
> I'm thinking I just make the cuts on this board opposite , and when
> it's done, turn it 90 degrees, and how will this capstrip be different
> than
> the rest? All the strips will look the same, with grain running the same
> direction. Does it matter where the strip originally came from in the
> board?
>
> Am I thinking this through correctly?
>
> Kent
> Looking to make some sawdust
>
Kent,
It does not matter which way the grain runs on any thing except main and
aileron spars. The grain run out must be good ofcourse. I use the Western
Red Cedar for ribs, leading and trailing edges, side former sticks, fill
sticks, turtle deck, ribs in the tail group. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Craig,
A while ago I was passing around my spruce lists that I had ordered from
AS&S a few years ago. If nothing else you could give them that and fill the
order from it. All my woodwork is done, and the quantity came out fine.
As of three years ago the quality was excellant. If you get anything like I
got , you'll be very satisfied.
Let me know and I can fwd it to you.
walt
list is for long fuse w/ 3 piece wing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Williams" <fax(at)amteccontrol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Kit
>
> Was looking for a good source for a spruce kit. Called AS&S and the
> order taker was not sure what in the kit and what stage of work it's in.
> Western had what sounded like a good kit but was much higher that AS&S.
> What would you do if you had to do it over again ???
>
> Thanks for a great source of info for us beginners !!
>
> Thanks Gang,
>
> Craig in SC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com> |
I used a duplicator with a die grinder and a 1/2" bull nose bit for the
final cut.
A right angle grinder fit with a chain saw chain to remove the bulk of
the wood.
The big thing that I learned when building the blank. I glued one 1/4"
board per day.
Every morning I would take the clamps off and re balance the blank to
determan
which end gets the light end & the heavy end of the new board.
When I got done using the duplicator the prop was all most perfect.
Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
Craig,
I believe it may have been you who talked to Tim Krieder of AS&S, but my
memory is shot so who knows.
Tim has been helping to differentiate between Piet and Griega wood sizes
and I think he has your spreadsheet. Last time I talked to him, he was
hoping to validate that list. He is also, hoping for more demand so he
can lobby for a full wood kit.
If he gets enough, maybe he can. It sure would be nice to just dial up
one part number. As of my last call there, you'll still have to order
each size separately by length. We should verify the spreadsheet and
lobby for them to adopt it as "official" at least.
It would also be nice to convince them to route the "t" dimensions of
all those tail sticks. If everyone mentioned this and a kit, every
time they make an order, maybe the next generation of builders will have
an easier time of it.
I recommend AS&S for everything by the way. They've never overcharged
me or screwed up an order in the fifteen years that I've been a
customer. Interestingly, I've found that a buddy of mine is the son of
the founder, but I don't expect that to cut any mustard and I've yet to
find a commission check in the mailbox.... ;-)
Larry
(Busily carving inspection holes in the Champ due to the latest #$@&*! AD)
walter evans wrote:
>
>Craig,
>A while ago I was passing around my spruce lists that I had ordered from
>AS&S a few years ago. If nothing else you could give them that and fill the
>order from it. All my woodwork is done, and the quantity came out fine.
>As of three years ago the quality was excellant. If you get anything like I
>got , you'll be very satisfied.
>Let me know and I can fwd it to you.
>walt
>list is for long fuse w/ 3 piece wing.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Craig Williams" <fax(at)amteccontrol.com>
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Kit
>
>
>>
>
>
>>Was looking for a good source for a spruce kit. Called AS&S and the
>>order taker was not sure what in the kit and what stage of work it's in.
>>Western had what sounded like a good kit but was much higher that AS&S.
>>What would you do if you had to do it over again ???
>>
>>Thanks for a great source of info for us beginners !!
>>
>>Thanks Gang,
>>
>>Craig in SC
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | What wood to use? |
Ervin Luke wrote:
As a builder more familiar with metal than wood, I am interested
to know which type of wood is best for each application, or area of the
airplane. I notice some builders are using cedar, spruce, fir, etc., in
various areas of their project, and I am wondering what it is about each
type of wood that makes it better for one area, than another type of
wood. Is their a source where I can find this information? Or would
anyone care to give a brief synopsis? Thank you.
Ervin Luke
erviator(at)juno.com
RV-6
potential Piet builder
Hi Ervin
"What wood to use?" is sure to spark a long-string discussion, as will a few
other topics such as "what glue to use?". However, at the risk of starting
such a discussion I will try to help you out.
There are a number of good structural woods for the basic structure.
Probably the best from the standpoint of strength-to-weight ratio is
aircraft grade Sitka Spruce, but it is also the costliest. Douglas Fir is
considerably cheaper, and it is actually stronger than spruce, by 23%, but
it is also heavier, by 26%, so overall it has a lower strength to weight
ratio than spruce. If all the pieces in the structure are assumed to be of
spruce, then they could be scaled down somewhat if built in fir to save some
weight. However, it would be a major pain to do so. The total weight of
spruce in the wooden structure is probably not over 100 lbs in a Pietenpol,
so a 26% increase in weight is probably less than 25 lbs. The cost savings
is significant.
Other alternatives to spruce include Western Hemlock, which is 11% stronger
than spruce but 5% heavier, and western red cedar, which is 19% lighter than
spruce, but is only 74% as strong as spruce. I would be careful about using
cedar for major structure like spars and longerons.
Probably of more importance than the species of wood chosen is the actual
grain structure of the wood you will use. For this reason I chose to use
aircraft grade spruce, although it is pretty expensive. Still, I doubt I've
got over $2,000 in spruce in my project. The wood is one of the less
expensive components of the finished airplane, compared to engines, covering
materials, etc. Still, if you have plenty of time and a careful eye, you
can select wood suitable for use in an aircraft.
At one point in my project, I decided I would use Douglas Fir rather than
order more spruce, because the local Home Depot had some good looking fir,
and both Aircraft Spruce and Wicks Aircraft were on backorder. I selected a
few pieces and brought them home. As soon as I started working them I
decided to go back to spruce. I find the heavy turpentine aroma of douglas
fir objectionable, as well as its tendency to split and splinter. If you
once work sitka spruce, you will never want to use another wood.
But your question was what woods to use where? The plans spell out the
places where you need woods other than the main structual woods. Plywood
can be either birch or mahogany (or luaun or anything else you want, but
birch and mahogany represent the bulk of the aircraft plywoods). Birch is
harder and stronger, Mahogany is softer and lighter - take your pick.
The only other wood called out on the Pietenpol plans to my memory is white
ash. This is important. You will notice that Ash is called out wherever
there are vibration loads, such as the engine mounts, or shock loads, such
as the landing gear attach points. Ash has a couple of very interesting
properties - it has a remarkable ability to absorb shock (which is why it is
used for baseball bats), and it does not splinter (which is why gymnastic
parallel bars are made of Ash). Ash is readily available at most lumber
yards, although Home Depot doesn't carry it, and it is not terribly
expensive. I would not substitute another species for the ash called out in
the plans.
Use your best judgement, and change species as you see fit as long as it is
not major structure. As I said, most of my structure is aircraft grade
sitka spruce, but I use douglas fir for the ribs over the fuel tank in the
centersection due to their increased stiffness over spruce. I used ash
where it was called out, and anywhere that I have screws that need to anchor
into wood for removable fairings and access panels, I have used Black
Walnut - primarily because it is hard and holds screws well and I have a lot
of it in my shop. If I had to buy it I certainly would not use walnut - too
expensive. Most of my plywood is mahogany, particualrly aft of the CG where
any additional weight can cause problems, but even there I used birch where
I needed durability - for example the doublers in the tail where the bracing
wires attach, or where the tail attaches to the fuselage. Just use common
sense.
Sorry for the long-winded answer
Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP getting closer all the time
Raleigh. NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Ervin's questions |
Welcome Ervin!
It seems like every Pietenpol builder has used something different,
as long as he/she determines it is strong enough for the application. If
everyone could have easy access to Sitka Spruce at affordable prices, that's
probably the wood to use. In the articles and books I have Sitka is the
standard to measure against, with the best strength and weight, and many
builders will use other wood if they decide they don't need the properties
of Spruce in that particular application.
In my case, I made sure I'm not the one forging ahead in new
territory. It has been said that the Pietenpol is overbuilt, so somewhere
on the aircraft wood substitutions can be made, but I don't know where to
start so I follow-the -leaders. I'm using what others have used before me,
$30 to $40 worth of Western Red Cedar for my ribs, compared to purchasing
pre-cut Spruce from AS&S or Wicks at $125 +shipping. I decided W.R. Cedar
is close enough in strength, to use as ribs. And cost does play a factor in
deciding which wood to use, (for me anyway) . Spruce is only going up in
price. I plan to use the wood specified in the plans, unless, like the
ribs, I find other builders using something else successfully.
The EAA wood book has information , and if you are an EAA member go
to the EAA web site, sign in to the homebuilders area and read the articles
about wood building by some very knowledgeable people. Some of them read
this list and I hope they chime in!!
Kent Hallsten
Oklahoma City
Just got my T-88 and Mahogany ply today. Ribs by the weekend!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Williams" <cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com> |
| Subject: | Rib Design Question |
Have been pondering several hours over which rib is the best. Right now
I've got the full size template that came with the print set, the
measurements from the airfoil layout that I could plot, and a Cad file I
uploaded. They all have some things about them that just doesn't seem to
fit. I know there will be some variations but just wondering what most
of the builders are doing.
Has anyone put the airfoil on CAD other than the one thats on
www.aircamper.org. I sure would like to have a copy if so.
Thanks for the help !!!
Craig in SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
I hope I open a big can with this pending problem. For the last week and a
couple of days I'm buried in body and mind trying to rig a smoooooooth and
even feel to my elevators. I must have the geometry reversed, up side down,
backward or something.The drag and friction on the stick would make it
unflyable, in my opinion. Have any of you had this trouble when rigging?
Rudders OK, Aelirons OK but those elevators won't get Corky to the coast let
alone across the pond no matter how many tanks and floatation.
Seriously, if someone has conqured this little hill won't you share the
secret with this ole dumd bunny.
Corky in La building up his muscles so he can move his stick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Continental valves |
Hello List,
This one is for the Continental guys out there. I have a Continental A-65 on
my unfinished Piet. It has about one hour of ground running time since
major. This time was run on it about 4 or 5 months ago. I didn't run it for
a couple of months. I pulled it out and decided to run it some. It started
right up but I wasn't getting good oil pressure. After about 30 seconds or
so I shut it down. I took the oil screen out and pumped a little oil down to
the pump to kind of 'prime' it. I then restarted it and it ran for about 10
seconds and promptly quit. I then pulled the prop through and one cylinder
was completely soft, like the valve was stuck open. It hadn't been before.
After it sat for about 30 minutes, it once again felt like it had good
compression. So I started it. Once again it ran for 8 or 10 seconds and
quit, leaving a soft cylinder. Again after about 30 minutes it had
compression again. Again I started it and it did the same thing. This time
I pulled the rocker covers off and found that I could push all of the valves
open by hand and a couple of them stayed open. Then I had no compression
until I waited about 30 minutes and once again had compression. Is it
possible the guides are tight, although I didn't have this problem in the
previous hour of running time? Is it possible the colder oil (it is winter
here in Ohio!) is pumping into the tappets quicker than it can pump out?
Therefore not letting the valves close. If anyone has ever experienced
anything like this let me know what you think. Any ideas would be a great
help!!
Don Emch
Hoping spring isn't too far away!
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/15/02 4:48:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:
> Pieters,
> I hope I open a big can with this pending problem. For the last week and a
> couple of days I'm buried in body and mind trying to rig a smoooooooth and
> even feel to my elevators. I must have the geometry reversed, up side down,
>
> backward or something.The drag and friction on the stick would make it
> unflyable, in my opinion. Have any of you had this trouble when rigging?
> Rudders OK, Aelirons OK but those elevators won't get Corky to the coast
> let
> alone across the pond no matter how many tanks and floatation.
> Seriously, if someone has conqured this little hill won't you share the
> secret with this ole dumd bunny.
> Corky in La building up his muscles so he can move his stick.
>
>
>
Corky,
Haven't had or heard of that problem. Find the part of the elevator system
that has the friction and give more detail. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | What wood to use? |
>
>The only other wood called out on the Pietenpol plans to my memory is white
>ash. This is important. You will notice that Ash is called out wherever
>there are vibration loads, such as the engine mounts, or shock loads, such
>as the landing gear attach points. Ash has a couple of very interesting
>properties - it has a remarkable ability to absorb shock (which is why it is
>used for baseball bats), and it does not splinter (which is why gymnastic
>parallel bars are made of Ash). Ash is readily available at most lumber
>yards, although Home Depot doesn't carry it, and it is not terribly
>expensive. I would not substitute another species for the ash called out in
>the plans.
Jack (or anyone else),
Can you clarify something here? Your post caused me to go back and review
my plans, and I notice that BHP used ash extensively to make engine bearers
for the Model A engine, but I see no notations indicating any use of ash
with the Continental/Corvair mounts - it looks as though these attach only
to the ends of the longerons (top & bottom) via the engine mount fittings.
Is this correct?
Comments anyone?
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
Bumper Sticker of the week:
'Everyone is entitled to act stupid, but you're abusing the priviledge'
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
In a message dated 1/15/02 3:10:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com writes:
> Have been pondering several hours over which rib is the best. Right now
> I've got the full size template that came with the print set, the
> measurements from the airfoil layout that I could plot, and a Cad file I
> uploaded. They all have some things about them that just doesn't seem to
> fit. I know there will be some variations but just wondering what most
> of the builders are doing.
>
> Has anyone put the airfoil on CAD other than the one thats on
> www.aircamper.org. I sure would like to have a copy if so.
>
> Thanks for the help !!!
>
>
Craig,
I used the full size print that came with the plans to make the rib jig,
checked it for paper shrinkage with a tape measure, made sure the spars sat
vertical to the bottom plane, etc. Sure is easy this way. Doug Bryant
Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Corky, one thing I found on my control system was that it was easy for the
cables to slip past the pulleys on the torque tube, wedging in between the
pulley and the pulley bracket. It would produce the kind of friction you
are describing. I installed cable guards on all the pulleys so the cables
cannot slip off and jam. Maybe this could be your problem.
Jack in NC wishing he was so far along to be rigging the plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rigging
Pieters,
I hope I open a big can with this pending problem. For the last week and a
couple of days I'm buried in body and mind trying to rig a smoooooooth and
even feel to my elevators. I must have the geometry reversed, up side down,
backward or something.The drag and friction on the stick would make it
unflyable, in my opinion. Have any of you had this trouble when rigging?
Rudders OK, Aelirons OK but those elevators won't get Corky to the coast let
alone across the pond no matter how many tanks and floatation.
Seriously, if someone has conqured this little hill won't you share the
secret with this ole dumd bunny.
Corky in La building up his muscles so he can move his stick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Thanks Doug,
Been hunting for that part for 2 weeks
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Thanks Jack,
I have guards etc on all pulleys. I might try packing them with cup grease
like I do on my Model T bearings.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
I have drawn it on cad also and noticed some "things that didn't seem just
right. There is a dimension or two that seemed off from the general "flow"
of the rest of the dimensions, which caused a low spot in the top side of
the rib... Anyway, I have used a command on cad to "spline" the points so
that they form a consistent curve. You're welcome to take a look at what
I've drawn if you'd like... I didn't get a full size rib drawing... What's
going on here??? I ordered my plans from the Pietenpols. Maybe it's not
included normally.
Let me know if you'd like a copy and I'll forward to your personal address.
Tom Brant
MLPS
----- Original Message -----
From: <Doug413(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
>
> In a message dated 1/15/02 3:10:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com writes:
>
>
> > Have been pondering several hours over which rib is the best. Right now
> > I've got the full size template that came with the print set, the
> > measurements from the airfoil layout that I could plot, and a Cad file I
> > uploaded. They all have some things about them that just doesn't seem to
> > fit. I know there will be some variations but just wondering what most
> > of the builders are doing.
> >
> > Has anyone put the airfoil on CAD other than the one thats on
> > www.aircamper.org. I sure would like to have a copy if so.
> >
> > Thanks for the help !!!
> >
> >
>
> Craig,
>
> I used the full size print that came with the plans to make the rib jig,
> checked it for paper shrinkage with a tape measure, made sure the spars
sat
> vertical to the bottom plane, etc. Sure is easy this way. Doug Bryant
> Wichita Ks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | I finally started it.... |
I finally got started on the Piet... I have one side, top and bottom
longerons, front and tail posts laid-out. The wood I got is from
McKormick's Lumber in Madison... Real nice stuff for the money. I had
to plane it down and ended up with about 7/8" thk. material. I have
heard that there are a number of people who've made their longerons 3/4"
sq. or 7/8" sq. or some other dimension than the original 1" sq. Is
there anyone out there who's done this? I am not overly concerned doing
this but it would comfort me to know that I am not the only one. What
I've done is made the longerons 7/8" x 1", having the 1" in the vertical
plane. Then I can use my planed stock for the rest of the verticals and
diagonal braces cutting them down to their perspective size x 7/8" in
the horizontal plane. Wow, sorry... I am rambling here.... Anyway,
there's another Piet underway in Minneapolis.
Tom Brant
MLPS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
Something I forgot to get opinions on... I need to purchase some
plywood for gusset material. I have a source that sells the same Okume
plywood as Aircraft Spruce sells for about half the price. It is in
metric sizes that are slightly larger or smaller substitutes for the
imperial equivalent. Would this be an acceptable subsitute for gussets,
and fuse side material etc.??? Or what type is recommended for use in
the gussets and fuse side? It seems to me that somewhere on the plans
it called out birch or mahogony but I haven't found it tonight.
Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
Tom Brant
MLPS
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/15/02 7:40:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:
> Thanks Doug,
> Been hunting for that part for 2 weeks
> Corky
>
>
>
Corky,
I can think of a few probable causes for the tight elevator. Could be too
tight at the control stick hinge point, although not likely. Elevator
bellcrank bearing surfaces could be too tight and binding the pivet shaft.
The control cables from the stick thru the pulleys to the elevator bellcrank
could be rigged too tightly. Elevator cables could be too tight. Rigging
should be just tight enough to not bind anywhere in the complete travel.
Could be an accumulation of all this plus the weight of the elevator may make
it appear tight. Doug Bryant Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plywood gussets |
In a message dated 1/15/02 8:56:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tmbrant(at)uswest.net writes:
> Something I forgot to get opinions on... I need to purchase some
> plywood for gusset material. I have a source that sells the same Okume
> plywood as Aircraft Spruce sells for about half the price. It is in
> metric sizes that are slightly larger or smaller substitutes for the
> imperial equivalent. Would this be an acceptable subsitute for gussets,
> and fuse side material etc.??? Or what type is recommended for use in
> the gussets and fuse side? It seems to me that somewhere on the plans
> it called out birch or mahogony but I haven't found it tonight.
>
> Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Tom Brant
> MLPS
>
>
>
Tom,
Three MM birch or mahagany plywood will do fine for gussets and sides. Not
too sure I like the idea of the 7/8x 1 longerons. I don't believe I would do
that and if I did, I would use fir and place the 1 inch dinension flat so the
width for the cabane attachments and engine mount plates would be full to
print and the landing gear lug would bear across a full inch. Doug
Bryant Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Continental valves |
Don,
Hopefully Cy Galley will respond to you on this because he knows a lot about
these sorts of problems. I would use some carb cleaner spray to try to
clean out the valve guides of thick oil and then relube them with some light
machine oil like three and one and see if the valves stay open the 30
seconds. Hopefully they won't and you can chalk it up to high shearing
strength of your oil (a good thing sometimes). This would mean a throrough
preheat before you do this again.
Usually, when it is cold, the cold viscous oil does not make it very well
into the lifters and the lifters don't "pump up". Then they will be noisey
just like in your car on a cold winter morning. This is exactly opposite of
what you think is occuring so I do not think it is the problem.
How cold is it outside when you are doing these runs? Is the engine
preheated before a run? What weight oil are you using?
As an aside, a design feature of the Continental engine makes priming the
oil pump a snap with out doing anything but lifting the tail up high for a
few moments. It seems that when the ship is in a three point stance, oil in
the tail end of the oil screen chamber is unable to drain down through the
oil pump gears back into the oil sump. To prime the oil pump, lift the tail
high, as high as you can without it nosing over, and this oil will slide
forward into the passage that goes down to the pump gears, priming the pump.
Of course it is good only once.
Chris Bobka
Tech Counselor
----- Original Message -----
From: <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental valves
>
> Hello List,
> This one is for the Continental guys out there. I have a Continental A-65
on
> my unfinished Piet. It has about one hour of ground running time since
> major. This time was run on it about 4 or 5 months ago. I didn't run it
for
> a couple of months. I pulled it out and decided to run it some. It
started
> right up but I wasn't getting good oil pressure. After about 30 seconds
or
> so I shut it down. I took the oil screen out and pumped a little oil down
to
> the pump to kind of 'prime' it. I then restarted it and it ran for about
10
> seconds and promptly quit. I then pulled the prop through and one
cylinder
> was completely soft, like the valve was stuck open. It hadn't been
before.
> After it sat for about 30 minutes, it once again felt like it had good
> compression. So I started it. Once again it ran for 8 or 10 seconds and
> quit, leaving a soft cylinder. Again after about 30 minutes it had
> compression again. Again I started it and it did the same thing. This
time
> I pulled the rocker covers off and found that I could push all of the
valves
> open by hand and a couple of them stayed open. Then I had no compression
> until I waited about 30 minutes and once again had compression. Is it
> possible the guides are tight, although I didn't have this problem in the
> previous hour of running time? Is it possible the colder oil (it is
winter
> here in Ohio!) is pumping into the tappets quicker than it can pump out?
> Therefore not letting the valves close. If anyone has ever experienced
> anything like this let me know what you think. Any ideas would be a great
> help!!
> Don Emch
> Hoping spring isn't too far away!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What wood to use? |
Kip,
Engine mount bearers use the ash. Many of the old engines of the day
mounted just like the model A does in the piet. The good old OX-5 in the
Jenny is a prime example. The bearers in the piet are supported by tubes in
front and a wood "engine support" in the back (per the flying and glider
manual figure 1C). The "engine support" is spruce by default but making it
of ash is not necessary but wouldn't hurt either.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: What wood to use?
>
> >
>
> >The only other wood called out on the Pietenpol plans to my memory is
white
> >ash. This is important. You will notice that Ash is called out wherever
> >there are vibration loads, such as the engine mounts, or shock loads,
such
> >as the landing gear attach points. Ash has a couple of very interesting
> >properties - it has a remarkable ability to absorb shock (which is why it
is
> >used for baseball bats), and it does not splinter (which is why gymnastic
> >parallel bars are made of Ash). Ash is readily available at most lumber
> >yards, although Home Depot doesn't carry it, and it is not terribly
> >expensive. I would not substitute another species for the ash called out
in
> >the plans.
>
> Jack (or anyone else),
>
> Can you clarify something here? Your post caused me to go back and review
> my plans, and I notice that BHP used ash extensively to make engine
bearers
> for the Model A engine, but I see no notations indicating any use of ash
> with the Continental/Corvair mounts - it looks as though these attach only
> to the ends of the longerons (top & bottom) via the engine mount fittings.
> Is this correct?
>
> Comments anyone?
>
> Kip Gardner
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
> Bumper Sticker of the week:
>
> 'Everyone is entitled to act stupid, but you're abusing the priviledge'
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Corky,
I would not pack any grease into the pulley gards because the grease will
attract dirt and dust and this could ultimately jam a pulley. The dirt will
also work into the cable and begin to wear the metal down to the point of
failure. Do what doug says and find the offender and fix it.
As your mother said, "If you can not find the time to do it right the first
time, how will you ever find the time to do it again?"
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rigging
>
> Thanks Jack,
> I have guards etc on all pulleys. I might try packing them with cup grease
> like I do on my Model T bearings.
> Corky in La
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plywood gussets |
Tom,
The okume that Wayne Meier sells is right on the money. The "plywood" of
1930 is a bit different from what is out there today. It was much lower
quality in regards to glue. The okume is good stuff, just different.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
>
> Something I forgot to get opinions on... I need to purchase some
> plywood for gusset material. I have a source that sells the same Okume
> plywood as Aircraft Spruce sells for about half the price. It is in
> metric sizes that are slightly larger or smaller substitutes for the
> imperial equivalent. Would this be an acceptable subsitute for gussets,
> and fuse side material etc.??? Or what type is recommended for use in
> the gussets and fuse side? It seems to me that somewhere on the plans
> it called out birch or mahogony but I haven't found it tonight.
>
> Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Tom Brant
> MLPS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
The father in law of a friend of mine passed away a year or two ago and left
behind a nearly complete GN-1. It has the fuselage and
tailfeathers through silver on Stits Polyfiber P-103 and the wings are
covered through the orange polybrush. An A-65 is mounted and all of the
cowling is done except for some riveting. It has the Cub gear with
BRAND NEW Cub tires on Cub wheels with Cub brakes. The wing struts are the
rear Cub struts but need to be sized and finish welded. Prop, tailwheel,
instruments, plans, hardware....it is all there. Send emails to Terry (aka
Joe) Wakely at twakely(at)rconnect.com It was built in Montana but Joe just
trailered it to Minneapolis area and would probably drive it to you if you
were within a few hundred miles, rather than offload it from the trailer.
It has never been certified by FAA but I
have been told all the receipts and pictures are there. Therefore the
buyer can get the repairman certificate!!
Chris Bobka
Tech Counselor
Minneapolis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
Gary,
I have looked at the plans for the Bordom fighter along with greg cardinal
and we both agreee that there are way too many metal fittings of a complex
nature. In my opinion, a diffcult plane to build and probably very heavy.
Look at the Flitzer.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
> Wow. What a list. Thank you all for your comments. I am very close to
> ordering the plans. I lost my job and feared I would have trouble finding
a
> new one. No problem though, so onward ho.
>
> I originally thought of building the Wolf Boredom Fighter (and still may,
> later). Then I stumbled on the Air Camper and that was it, I fell in love.
I
> can share the experience with many more people now.
>
> I think I will be using a Corvair engine and plan on attending Corvair
> College in FL in May, if I can, new job and all. If not this year, next.
> Sorry the purists of you out there, but the Model A is just not right for
> me. BTW - Here is my dad's 31 Model A Tudor Sedan hotrod just after we
> painted it.
>
> I really look forward to meeting you guys in the future and I am sure I
will
> have plenty of questions to ask.
>
> -Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Williams" <cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
Yes,
Please send it to me. And yes, I received my plans about a week ago and
there was a full size rib template. Maybe this is something new.
Thanks...Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom & Michelle Brant <tmbrant(at)uswest.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
>
>I have drawn it on cad also and noticed some "things that didn't seem just
>right. There is a dimension or two that seemed off from the general "flow"
>of the rest of the dimensions, which caused a low spot in the top side of
>the rib... Anyway, I have used a command on cad to "spline" the points so
>that they form a consistent curve. You're welcome to take a look at what
>I've drawn if you'd like... I didn't get a full size rib drawing...
What's
>going on here??? I ordered my plans from the Pietenpols. Maybe it's not
>included normally.
>
>Let me know if you'd like a copy and I'll forward to your personal address.
>
>Tom Brant
>MLPS
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Doug413(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
>
>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/15/02 3:10:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com writes:
>>
>>
>> > Have been pondering several hours over which rib is the best. Right now
>> > I've got the full size template that came with the print set, the
>> > measurements from the airfoil layout that I could plot, and a Cad file
I
>> > uploaded. They all have some things about them that just doesn't seem
to
>> > fit. I know there will be some variations but just wondering what most
>> > of the builders are doing.
>> >
>> > Has anyone put the airfoil on CAD other than the one thats on
>> > www.aircamper.org. I sure would like to have a copy if so.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the help !!!
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I used the full size print that came with the plans to make the rib jig,
>> checked it for paper shrinkage with a tape measure, made sure the spars
>sat
>> vertical to the bottom plane, etc. Sure is easy this way. Doug Bryant
>> Wichita Ks
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | What wood to use? |
You're right, Kip. The air-cooled engines mount directly to the longerons,
like on any other airplane. The ash was specified for the long bearers that
the Model A sits directly on.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kip & Beth
Gardner
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: What wood to use?
>
>The only other wood called out on the Pietenpol plans to my memory is white
>ash. This is important. You will notice that Ash is called out wherever
>there are vibration loads, such as the engine mounts, or shock loads, such
>as the landing gear attach points. Ash has a couple of very interesting
>properties - it has a remarkable ability to absorb shock (which is why it
is
>used for baseball bats), and it does not splinter (which is why gymnastic
>parallel bars are made of Ash). Ash is readily available at most lumber
>yards, although Home Depot doesn't carry it, and it is not terribly
>expensive. I would not substitute another species for the ash called out
in
>the plans.
Jack (or anyone else),
Can you clarify something here? Your post caused me to go back and review
my plans, and I notice that BHP used ash extensively to make engine bearers
for the Model A engine, but I see no notations indicating any use of ash
with the Continental/Corvair mounts - it looks as though these attach only
to the ends of the longerons (top & bottom) via the engine mount fittings.
Is this correct?
Comments anyone?
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
Bumper Sticker of the week:
'Everyone is entitled to act stupid, but you're abusing the priviledge'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
--- Tom & Michelle Brant wrote:
> Michelle Brant"
>
> I have drawn it on cad also and noticed some "things
> that didn't seem just
> right. There is a dimension or two that seemed off
> from the general "flow"
> of the rest of the dimensions, which caused a low
> spot in the top side of
> the rib... Anyway, I have used a command on cad to
> "spline" the points so
> that they form a consistent curve. You're welcome
> to take a look at what
> I've drawn if you'd like... I didn't get a full
> size rib drawing... What's
> going on here??? I ordered my plans from the
> Pietenpols. Maybe it's not
> included normally.
Hi Tom
I have the full size print, but its way off also
because of humidity in the paper (came that way) If
you want it and my rib jig (unused) you can have it.
they charged a little extra for the full size print.
Del at New Richmond Wi
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
--- del magsam wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Tom & Michelle Brant wrote:
> > Michelle Brant"
> >
> > I have drawn it on cad also and noticed some
> "things
> > that didn't seem just
> > right. There is a dimension or two that seemed
> off
> > from the general "flow"
> > of the rest of the dimensions, which caused a low
> > spot in the top side of
> > the rib... Anyway, I have used a command on cad
> to
> > "spline" the points so
> > that they form a consistent curve. You're welcome
> > to take a look at what
> > I've drawn if you'd like... I didn't get a full
> > size rib drawing... What's
> > going on here??? I ordered my plans from the
> > Pietenpols. Maybe it's not
> > included normally.
>
> Hi Tom
> I have the full size print, but its way off also
> because of humidity in the paper (came that way) If
> you want it and my rib jig (unused) you can have it.
> they charged a little extra for the full size print.
> Del at New Richmond Wi
Also, I purchased my ribs from charlie rubeck, if you
want to come out and compare them to your's. that
would be fine.
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
I just used the template supplied with the plans.
Greg Cardinal
>>> cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com 01/15 4:58 PM >>>
Have been pondering several hours over which rib is the best. Right now
I've got the full size template that came with the print set, the
measurements from the airfoil layout that I could plot, and a Cad file I
uploaded. They all have some things about them that just doesn't seem to
fit. I know there will be some variations but just wondering what most
of the builders are doing.
Has anyone put the airfoil on CAD other than the one thats on
www.aircamper.org. I sure would like to have a copy if so.
Thanks for the help !!!
Craig in SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
Corky,
Dale and I had a lot of friction in the ailerons. We investigated and found that
a lot of the friction was caused by the pulleys rubbing against their respective
fittings. After some "adjusting" with a hammer and wedge the ailerons are
much better.
We eliminated pulleys in our elevator control by using a push-pull tube from the
aft stick to the walking beam. That moves very smoothly.
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>>> Isablcorky(at)aol.com 01/15 6:46 PM >>>
Pieters,
I hope I open a big can with this pending problem. For the last week and a
couple of days I'm buried in body and mind trying to rig a smoooooooth and
even feel to my elevators. I must have the geometry reversed, up side down,
backward or something.The drag and friction on the stick would make it
unflyable, in my opinion. Have any of you had this trouble when rigging?
Rudders OK, Aelirons OK but those elevators won't get Corky to the coast let
alone across the pond no matter how many tanks and floatation.
Seriously, if someone has conqured this little hill won't you share the
secret with this ole dumd bunny.
Corky in La building up his muscles so he can move his stick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What wood to use? |
That is correct Kip. Continental and Corvair engine mounts are attached using steel
fittings bolted through the longerons and plywood.
Greg Cardinal
>>> kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net 01/15 8:57 PM >>>
>
>The only other wood called out on the Pietenpol plans to my memory is white
>ash. This is important. You will notice that Ash is called out wherever
>there are vibration loads, such as the engine mounts, or shock loads, such
>as the landing gear attach points. Ash has a couple of very interesting
>properties - it has a remarkable ability to absorb shock (which is why it is
>used for baseball bats), and it does not splinter (which is why gymnastic
>parallel bars are made of Ash). Ash is readily available at most lumber
>yards, although Home Depot doesn't carry it, and it is not terribly
>expensive. I would not substitute another species for the ash called out in
>the plans.
Jack (or anyone else),
Can you clarify something here? Your post caused me to go back and review
my plans, and I notice that BHP used ash extensively to make engine bearers
for the Model A engine, but I see no notations indicating any use of ash
with the Continental/Corvair mounts - it looks as though these attach only
to the ends of the longerons (top & bottom) via the engine mount fittings.
Is this correct?
Comments anyone?
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
Bumper Sticker of the week:
'Everyone is entitled to act stupid, but you're abusing the priviledge'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Rib Design Question |
Tom,
Would you be kind enough to share the cad drawing with me? My
Pietenpol supplied drawing has become wrinkled , else I would use that as a
pattern. Has anyone tried to iron a blueprint flat again? Steam or no
steam? :) I can get a full size printout here at work with your file. Can
you e-mail a file to the Governair address in the header?
Since I drew my rib on the board it always looked funny, just not
right somewhere. Last night I placed the supplied rib drawing over the top
of the jig, and almost none of the top surface of the rib drawing lined up
with the jig blocks!! So I measure again, and find all the height
measurements of the rib are from the straight edge, not the bottom of the
rib!! The rib bottom was the proper height from the edge, but in some
places the top was low by 3/8". I knew the rib looked flat on top, but I
measured so many times how could it be wrong?
So I unscrewed all the blocks/cams and have a flat board again. It
would be nice to use a pattern this time around. In hindsight I just
wasn't careful, and it bothers me because I spent enough time on this jig to
get it right. Hope this is not a preview of things to come. At least I
learned something. I have no desire to draw or loft the rib again, this
time I'll glue down the drawing, cover it with plastic and screw the blocks
on again.
Kent
Oklahoma City
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom & Michelle Brant [mailto:tmbrant(at)uswest.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
I have drawn it on cad also and noticed some "things that didn't seem just
right. There is a dimension or two that seemed off from the general "flow"
of the rest of the dimensions, which caused a low spot in the top side of
the rib... Anyway, I have used a command on cad to "spline" the points so
that they form a consistent curve. You're welcome to take a look at what
I've drawn if you'd like... I didn't get a full size rib drawing... What's
going on here??? I ordered my plans from the Pietenpols. Maybe it's not
included normally.
Let me know if you'd like a copy and I'll forward to your personal address.
Tom Brant
MLPS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Greg,
That tube idea hit me about 3 this morning as I was designing instead of
sleeping. If you could get me a few measurements and descriptions I would
sure like to try it as nothing is better than a solid control link.
Corky in La accepting all these good ideas and help with lots of
appreciation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com> |
Corky:
Sounds like you have your cables too tight. One of them (stick to walking
beam) will actually become slack as they approach the extreams of stick
movement. The same is true for the cables from the walking beam to the
elevator horns. Not to worry! Yes, new aircraft designs eleminate this,
and yes, you can change Bernies design to eliminate it, but it works fine
just the way it is!!
PS If it still does not operate smooth and easily, there must be another
problem.
Jim NX799JK
>From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rigging
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:45:46 -0600
>
>
>
>Corky,
>Dale and I had a lot of friction in the ailerons. We investigated and found
>that a lot of the friction was caused by the pulleys rubbing against their
>respective fittings. After some "adjusting" with a hammer and wedge the
>ailerons are much better.
>We eliminated pulleys in our elevator control by using a push-pull tube
>from the aft stick to the walking beam. That moves very smoothly.
>
>Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>
> >>> Isablcorky(at)aol.com 01/15 6:46 PM >>>
>
>Pieters,
>I hope I open a big can with this pending problem. For the last week and a
>couple of days I'm buried in body and mind trying to rig a smoooooooth and
>even feel to my elevators. I must have the geometry reversed, up side down,
>backward or something.The drag and friction on the stick would make it
>unflyable, in my opinion. Have any of you had this trouble when rigging?
>Rudders OK, Aelirons OK but those elevators won't get Corky to the coast
>let
>alone across the pond no matter how many tanks and floatation.
>Seriously, if someone has conqured this little hill won't you share the
>secret with this ole dumd bunny.
>Corky in La building up his muscles so he can move his stick.
>
>
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rib Design Question |
Craig:
I used the plans template also. I may have made a slight adjustment to it
to make sure it was the correct length and center to center measurement of
the spars only.
Jim NX799JK
>From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:36:21 -0600
>
>
>
>I just used the template supplied with the plans.
>
>Greg Cardinal
>
> >>> cwilliams(at)amteccontrol.com 01/15 4:58 PM >>>
>
>
>Have been pondering several hours over which rib is the best. Right now
>I've got the full size template that came with the print set, the
>measurements from the airfoil layout that I could plot, and a Cad file I
>uploaded. They all have some things about them that just doesn't seem to
>fit. I know there will be some variations but just wondering what most
>of the builders are doing.
>
>Has anyone put the airfoil on CAD other than the one thats on
>www.aircamper.org. I sure would like to have a copy if so.
>
>Thanks for the help !!!
>
>Craig in SC
>
>
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Rib Design Question |
I am interested in the print too. I would be glad to put it on my web site
for easy download to all who want it.
Regards,
Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
MyKitPlane.com
EAA 665957
gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
http://www.mykitplane.com
"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kent
> Hallsten
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:53 AM
> To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
>
>
>
>
> Tom,
> Would you be kind enough to share the cad drawing with me? My
> Pietenpol supplied drawing has become wrinkled , else I would
> use that as a
> pattern. Has anyone tried to iron a blueprint flat again? Steam or no
> steam? :) I can get a full size printout here at work with your
> file. Can
> you e-mail a file to the Governair address in the header?
>
> Since I drew my rib on the board it always looked funny, just not
> right somewhere. Last night I placed the supplied rib drawing
> over the top
> of the jig, and almost none of the top surface of the rib drawing lined up
> with the jig blocks!! So I measure again, and find all the height
> measurements of the rib are from the straight edge, not the bottom of the
> rib!! The rib bottom was the proper height from the edge, but in some
> places the top was low by 3/8". I knew the rib looked flat on top, but I
> measured so many times how could it be wrong?
>
> So I unscrewed all the blocks/cams and have a flat board
> again. It
> would be nice to use a pattern this time around. In hindsight I just
> wasn't careful, and it bothers me because I spent enough time on
> this jig to
> get it right. Hope this is not a preview of things to come. At least I
> learned something. I have no desire to draw or loft the rib again, this
> time I'll glue down the drawing, cover it with plastic and screw
> the blocks
> on again.
>
>
> Kent
> Oklahoma City
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom & Michelle Brant [mailto:tmbrant(at)uswest.net]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib Design Question
>
>
>
>
> I have drawn it on cad also and noticed some "things that didn't seem just
> right. There is a dimension or two that seemed off from the
> general "flow"
> of the rest of the dimensions, which caused a low spot in the top side of
> the rib... Anyway, I have used a command on cad to "spline" the points so
> that they form a consistent curve. You're welcome to take a look at what
> I've drawn if you'd like... I didn't get a full size rib
> drawing... What's
> going on here??? I ordered my plans from the Pietenpols. Maybe it's not
> included normally.
>
> Let me know if you'd like a copy and I'll forward to your
> personal address.
>
> Tom Brant
> MLPS
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
Corky,
Give me a couple of days to do some measuring and explaining. Might even try to
come up with some photos to post.
Greg Cardinal
>>> Isablcorky(at)aol.com 01/16 8:44 AM >>>
Greg,
That tube idea hit me about 3 this morning as I was designing instead of
sleeping. If you could get me a few measurements and descriptions I would
sure like to try it as nothing is better than a solid control link.
Corky in La accepting all these good ideas and help with lots of
appreciation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear question... |
Yes, the BF is a bit more complicated on the fittings. I got to spend some
time looking one over here in Houston. The builder, Tommy Thornhill, liked
it and said it flew pretty well, no surprises. The builder community, while
not nearly as active as this one, is pretty helpful.
I looked briefly at the Flitzer and may again. Thanks for the input.
FYI all. I am ordering plans. PayPal claims they could not verify my credit
card immediately so I am going through their verification process. BUT, the
plans will be on the way and then time to start ordering some wood.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> Bobka
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:57 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
>
>
>
> Gary,
>
> I have looked at the plans for the Bordom fighter along with greg cardinal
> and we both agreee that there are way too many metal fittings of a complex
> nature. In my opinion, a diffcult plane to build and probably very heavy.
>
> Look at the Flitzer.
>
> Chris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
>
>
> >
> > Wow. What a list. Thank you all for your comments. I am very close to
> > ordering the plans. I lost my job and feared I would have
> trouble finding
> a
> > new one. No problem though, so onward ho.
> >
> > I originally thought of building the Wolf Boredom Fighter (and
> still may,
> > later). Then I stumbled on the Air Camper and that was it, I
> fell in love.
> I
> > can share the experience with many more people now.
> >
> > I think I will be using a Corvair engine and plan on attending Corvair
> > College in FL in May, if I can, new job and all. If not this year, next.
> > Sorry the purists of you out there, but the Model A is just not
> right for
> > me. BTW - Here is my dad's 31 Model A Tudor Sedan hotrod just after we
> > painted it.
> >
> > I really look forward to meeting you guys in the future and I am sure I
> will
> > have plenty of questions to ask.
> >
> > -Gary
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | I finally started it.... |
Woohoo!! Congrats. Trying to order plans through PayPal today. Keep us
posted.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom &
> Michelle Brant
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:56 AM
> To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: I finally started it....
>
>
>
>
> I finally got started on the Piet... I have one side, top and bottom
> longerons, front and tail posts laid-out. The wood I got is from
> McKormick's Lumber in Madison... Real nice stuff for the money. I had
> to plane it down and ended up with about 7/8" thk. material. I have
> heard that there are a number of people who've made their longerons 3/4"
> sq. or 7/8" sq. or some other dimension than the original 1" sq. Is
> there anyone out there who's done this? I am not overly concerned doing
> this but it would comfort me to know that I am not the only one. What
> I've done is made the longerons 7/8" x 1", having the 1" in the vertical
> plane. Then I can use my planed stock for the rest of the verticals and
> diagonal braces cutting them down to their perspective size x 7/8" in
> the horizontal plane. Wow, sorry... I am rambling here.... Anyway,
> there's another Piet underway in Minneapolis.
>
> Tom Brant
>
> MLPS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Do you have any contact information for Wayne Meier and the products he
sells? Is he in the US or Canada?
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> Bobka
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:39 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
>
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> The okume that Wayne Meier sells is right on the money. The "plywood" of
> 1930 is a bit different from what is out there today. It was much lower
> quality in regards to glue. The okume is good stuff, just different.
>
> Chris Bobka
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
>
>
>
> >
> > Something I forgot to get opinions on... I need to purchase some
> > plywood for gusset material. I have a source that sells the same Okume
> > plywood as Aircraft Spruce sells for about half the price. It is in
> > metric sizes that are slightly larger or smaller substitutes for the
> > imperial equivalent. Would this be an acceptable subsitute for gussets,
> > and fuse side material etc.??? Or what type is recommended for use in
> > the gussets and fuse side? It seems to me that somewhere on the plans
> > it called out birch or mahogony but I haven't found it tonight.
> >
> > Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
> >
> > Tom Brant
> > MLPS
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Skip Gadd" <csfog(at)earthlink.net> |
consists of urethane foam. I would be interested in hearing from anyone
> else who is doing any testing of glues.
> Dick Hartwig
Dick and List,
I have also done some testing of Polyurethane glue. The test is:
Make 3 pieces of wood about the size and shape of dominoes. Glue together
in a stack, slide the middle piece 3/8 out one end. After curing put the
sandwich in a vice endwise and close till something gives. Have done this
test about 8 or 10 times with two different brands of glue, the last one
was Probond by Elmers. The best results I could get was about 10% to 15%
wood broke while 85% to 90% glue broke. Not very good.
The same test with T88 results in the wood becoming mashed or crushed and
the joint never breaking. I find you have to make a sample with bigger wood
or less glue surface when testing T88, and then you get close to 100% wood
breakage and 0% glue breakage, that is good.
I know Roger Mann and others use this glue in airplanes. It takes allot of
force to break the joints and maybe it is strong enough, maybe even
stronger then the glues they had back in the 1930's. My advice is to test
it to your own satisfaction before you use it in an aircraft.
Skip, working on the ca bane for my landing gear in Atlanta.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
Among other useful comments, Skip Gadd reported:
> I have also done some testing of Polyurethane glue. ...
> The best results I could get was about 10% to 15%
> wood broke while 85% to 90% glue broke. Not very good.
My apologies if this has already appeared here; there have
been several glue discussions on various lists and newsgroups
in recent months, and I've lost track of which piece of info
showed up in what thread. Just in case...
The other issue is how well the glue stands up with time.
There have been some reports that polyurethanes eventually
become brittle. This brings up the question of whether it
will continue to accept shock loads, such as those in a bad
landing--or, worse, getting slammed by side winds.
With all this talk of glues and their problems, I'm beginning
to wonder whether I dare trust anything other than resorcinol.
Of course, resorcinol is cheap, and it's the only structural
glue I can buy at the local hardware store, and it's not that
tough to make wood joints that fit well enough to use it.
Hmmm...
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear question... |
Gary Mc Neel,
Make sure to get the plans from Don Pietenpol and no one else.
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
> Yes, the BF is a bit more complicated on the fittings. I got to spend some
> time looking one over here in Houston. The builder, Tommy Thornhill, liked
> it and said it flew pretty well, no surprises. The builder community,
while
> not nearly as active as this one, is pretty helpful.
>
> I looked briefly at the Flitzer and may again. Thanks for the input.
>
> FYI all. I am ordering plans. PayPal claims they could not verify my
credit
> card immediately so I am going through their verification process. BUT,
the
> plans will be on the way and then time to start ordering some wood.
>
> -Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> > Bobka
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:57 AM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > I have looked at the plans for the Bordom fighter along with greg
cardinal
> > and we both agreee that there are way too many metal fittings of a
complex
> > nature. In my opinion, a diffcult plane to build and probably very
heavy.
> >
> > Look at the Flitzer.
> >
> > Chris
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Wow. What a list. Thank you all for your comments. I am very close to
> > > ordering the plans. I lost my job and feared I would have
> > trouble finding
> > a
> > > new one. No problem though, so onward ho.
> > >
> > > I originally thought of building the Wolf Boredom Fighter (and
> > still may,
> > > later). Then I stumbled on the Air Camper and that was it, I
> > fell in love.
> > I
> > > can share the experience with many more people now.
> > >
> > > I think I will be using a Corvair engine and plan on attending Corvair
> > > College in FL in May, if I can, new job and all. If not this year,
next.
> > > Sorry the purists of you out there, but the Model A is just not
> > right for
> > > me. BTW - Here is my dad's 31 Model A Tudor Sedan hotrod just after we
> > > painted it.
> > >
> > > I really look forward to meeting you guys in the future and I am sure
I
> > will
> > > have plenty of questions to ask.
> > >
> > > -Gary
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plywood gussets |
He is in Minneapolis and participates on this list from time to time.
Search the archives under okume. I will post his info again.
chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
>
> Do you have any contact information for Wayne Meier and the products he
> sells? Is he in the US or Canada?
>
> -Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> > Bobka
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:39 AM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > The okume that Wayne Meier sells is right on the money. The "plywood"
of
> > 1930 is a bit different from what is out there today. It was much lower
> > quality in regards to glue. The okume is good stuff, just different.
> >
> > Chris Bobka
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Something I forgot to get opinions on... I need to purchase some
> > > plywood for gusset material. I have a source that sells the same
Okume
> > > plywood as Aircraft Spruce sells for about half the price. It is in
> > > metric sizes that are slightly larger or smaller substitutes for the
> > > imperial equivalent. Would this be an acceptable subsitute for
gussets,
> > > and fuse side material etc.??? Or what type is recommended for use in
> > > the gussets and fuse side? It seems to me that somewhere on the plans
> > > it called out birch or mahogony but I haven't found it tonight.
> > >
> > > Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
> > >
> > > Tom Brant
> > > MLPS
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Steve and Replicraft |
Does anyone have a good number or e-mail for Steve Spiedel at
Replicraft. I am trying to get in touch with him.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Seibert <r18643(at)email.sps.mot.com> |
| Subject: | Elevator rigging |
Corky,
I have a possible solution for this "binding" problem.
I'll bet your cables are too tight.
The problem is that if you adjusted your elevator cable tension when the
elevator was in the full down position you are gonna have way too much
tension when you try to pull the stick up to "neutral".
The real issue is that the "As designed" geometry on the elevator
linkage creates some slack in the cables when you move the stick full up
or full down. This doesn't hurt anything and any Piet which is built to
plans has this same feature.
You need to adjust the cable tension when the elevator is in the level
position.
I know this can be a problem. I'll bet you can guess how I learned this!
Hope this solves your problem!
Bob Seibert
(building gas tank very slowly)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continental valves |
| From: | "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com> |
I have an A65 and it has Hydraulic lifters.
Dale Mpls
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Continental valves |
It would be more unusual that your A-65 didn't have hydraulic lifters.
----- Original Message -----
From: "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continental valves
I have an A65 and it has Hydraulic lifters.
Dale Mpls
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
I am getting ready to cover my horizontal stabilizer and have a last minute
question. Should the holes for mounting the VSTAB be drilled to have the
VSTAB perfectly straight and aligned with the fuselage? Or should it be
offset a little one way or the other to compensate for P factor or prop wash
(or something else!)?
Ted
Learning that just when you think you understand welding you find out you
don't.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesJboyer(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: I finally started it.... |
In a message dated 1/15/2002 8:43:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tmbrant(at)uswest.net writes:
> . What
> I've done is made the longerons 7/8" x 1", having the 1" in the vertical
> plane. Then I can use my planed stock for the rest of the verticals and
> diagonal braces cutting them down to their perspective size x 7/8" in
> the horizontal plane.
Hello Tom,
The Piet fuselage is overbuilt. A good way to judge your parts is to compare
with sizes uses in similiar aircraft. A good comparison for the Piet is the
Fly Baby. Both are about the same gross weight, all wood, and the Fly Baby is
okayed to use both the Continental 0-200 and Lycoming 0-235 108 hp engine.
These engines are generally heavier and have more power (except for power of
Corvair) than the engines usually used in the Piet.
The point being the Fly Baby longerons are only 3/4 x 3/4. Also the Piel
Emeraude, a much faster two place all wood airplane using the 135 hp Lycoming
up to 150 hp lyc. also uses 3/4 x 3/4 (close anyway as theyr'e metric
measurements) longerons. The Emeraude is also aerobatic and is the forerunner
of the CAP which is one of the worlds most aerobatic airplanes.
Take some of what is offered on this site as informative and something to
check for yourself; eg. buy plans for comparable aircraft and use common
sense, not someones opinion.
Cheers, Jim
PS My Piet is in the adding steel fittings to the fuselage before final
closure and covering; and yes my longerons are 1" x 3/4" only because I had
1" stock to start with.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesJboyer(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Plywood gussets |
Hello Again Tom,
For plywood a good source is marine plywood; less expensive by more than half
usually and just as good quality. An advantage is that a local lumberyard can
usually get it in one or two days. I used 3mm to replace the 1/8" sides and
6mm to replace the 1/4" floor plywood. These demensions are very close to
those on the plans and are more than sufficient to the task ( my opinion
naturally).
I used marine Mahagony (bad spelling) from my local lumberyard. It was made
in France by the way and is very good quality.
Cheers, Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Ted,
I covered both ends. I drilled two sets of holes for the forward mount for
the vertical fin - one set centered and one set offset to the left by about
1 degree, which worked out (as I remember) to about 3/4'" . With the rear
mount attached it is still possible to shift the leading edge over
sufficiently to attach to the offset holes. I will start off with it
centered, but if I find it needs right rudder in level flight, I can shift
it over fairly easily.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Brousseau
Subject: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
I am getting ready to cover my horizontal stabilizer and have a last minute
question. Should the holes for mounting the VSTAB be drilled to have the
VSTAB perfectly straight and aligned with the fuselage? Or should it be
offset a little one way or the other to compensate for P factor or prop wash
(or something else!)?
Ted
Learning that just when you think you understand welding you find out you
don't.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | plywood, longerons, cad-rib |
Thanks to all who've responded to my questions on plywood and longerons
that I'm using. Those of you who've asked for me to send them the cad
drawing on the rib, I hope I got to you all. If anyone needs it, soon
it will be posted on a site made by Gary Mcneal Jr. right Gary? If
anyone needs an emergency copy, let me know.. I will only give out with
the mention that you should verify dimension. I have checked and
rechecked it but you should allways know what you're getting.
Tom Brant
MLPS
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi group,
I spent some time this evening trying to figure out the lifters a little
more. Chris I agree with you in that I think that is where the problem is.
I can lift the rocker arm off of the valve and push the oil out of the lifter
on all but one valve (exhaust). It does not move at all. The others all
have the .030 to .110 clearance. When I first pull the engine through it has
good feeling compression on all cylinders. As soon as I push that particular
valve in and let it come back out, then pull the prop through again I have
absolutely no compression in that cylinder. After a half hour or so I pull
the prop through and I have good compression again. The thing that gets me
the most is that it ran just fine before, so I would think the push rod in
that particular one is ok. That makes me think that maybe there is dirt or
something causing the hydaulic unit to stick. ????
Don E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Steve and Replicraft |
My web site, www.mykitplane.com, has his information (and a bunch more). His
is in the Fabrication category. Here is the information:
New company name is EAPSAircraft -
http://www.replicraftaviation.com/
4551 West Cardinal Street
Unit #1
Homosassa, Fl., 34446
Phone 352-476-3307
EAPSAIRCRAFT(at)Yahoo.com
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
> Rambo
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 5:10 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steve and Replicraft
>
>
> Does anyone have a good number or e-mail for Steve Spiedel at
> Replicraft. I am trying to get in touch with him.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear question... |
Will do Chris. Their site:
http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/
uses PayPal for the ordering process. I am ordering the "get all three"
one, option 5 I think. Old plans, revisions and 3-piece wing. Should I get
the manual too? Sounds like it is useful, so I was.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> Bobka
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:26 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
>
>
>
> Gary Mc Neel,
>
> Make sure to get the plans from Don Pietenpol and no one else.
>
> Chris bobka
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
>
>
>
> >
> > Yes, the BF is a bit more complicated on the fittings. I got to
> spend some
> > time looking one over here in Houston. The builder, Tommy
> Thornhill, liked
> > it and said it flew pretty well, no surprises. The builder community,
> while
> > not nearly as active as this one, is pretty helpful.
> >
> > I looked briefly at the Flitzer and may again. Thanks for the input.
> >
> > FYI all. I am ordering plans. PayPal claims they could not verify my
> credit
> > card immediately so I am going through their verification process. BUT,
> the
> > plans will be on the way and then time to start ordering some wood.
> >
> > -Gary
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf
> Of Christian
> > > Bobka
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:57 AM
> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary,
> > >
> > > I have looked at the plans for the Bordom fighter along with greg
> cardinal
> > > and we both agreee that there are way too many metal fittings of a
> complex
> > > nature. In my opinion, a diffcult plane to build and probably very
> heavy.
> > >
> > > Look at the Flitzer.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Wow. What a list. Thank you all for your comments. I am
> very close to
> > > > ordering the plans. I lost my job and feared I would have
> > > trouble finding
> > > a
> > > > new one. No problem though, so onward ho.
> > > >
> > > > I originally thought of building the Wolf Boredom Fighter (and
> > > still may,
> > > > later). Then I stumbled on the Air Camper and that was it, I
> > > fell in love.
> > > I
> > > > can share the experience with many more people now.
> > > >
> > > > I think I will be using a Corvair engine and plan on
> attending Corvair
> > > > College in FL in May, if I can, new job and all. If not this year,
> next.
> > > > Sorry the purists of you out there, but the Model A is just not
> > > right for
> > > > me. BTW - Here is my dad's 31 Model A Tudor Sedan hotrod
> just after we
> > > > painted it.
> > > >
> > > > I really look forward to meeting you guys in the future and
> I am sure
> I
> > > will
> > > > have plenty of questions to ask.
> > > >
> > > > -Gary
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com> |
Ted:
I started out with the virt stab 1/2" off center, added another 1/2" with
little or no change in rudder pressure. Ended up adding a 4" x 6" alum trim
tab to the rudder with a very slight angle on it. This easily took care of
it.
My Opinion: Virt stab is so small that changes in it's position have little
effect. Rudder is so large that a small trim tab has a large effect. (My
first setting of the trim tab had me holding lots of opposite rudder to
correct for the correction!)
Any other thoughts from you Piet flyers?
NX799JK
>From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:31:42 -0500
>
>
>
>Hi Ted,
>
>I covered both ends. I drilled two sets of holes for the forward mount for
>the vertical fin - one set centered and one set offset to the left by about
>1 degree, which worked out (as I remember) to about 3/4'" . With the rear
>mount attached it is still possible to shift the leading edge over
>sufficiently to attach to the offset holes. I will start off with it
>centered, but if I find it needs right rudder in level flight, I can shift
>it over fairly easily.
>
>Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
>Brousseau
>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:16 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
>
>
>I am getting ready to cover my horizontal stabilizer and have a last minute
>question. Should the holes for mounting the VSTAB be drilled to have the
>VSTAB perfectly straight and aligned with the fuselage? Or should it be
>offset a little one way or the other to compensate for P factor or prop
>wash
>(or something else!)?
>
>Ted
>
>Learning that just when you think you understand welding you find out you
>don't.
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Rib Design Question |
I would like to through out a tip here:
My plans for my Pober Super Ace had the same problem with the rib drawing,
the coordinates given and the drawing were off. I regenerated the plan on
CAD using the coordinates and the spline command and plotted. Yea, yea, we
all don't have a CAD system but that's not the tip. I then took the drawing
and cut a profile template on 1/2" plywood. The edges were sanded smooth
and the bracing and spar locations were drawn on top. THAT became my rib
master, regardless of the drawing or coordinates given.
This was used as a tool in two ways. The first was to generate a rib jig.
I simply tacked the patten on the base plywood and fastened the blocks right
up against the outside edge. I then marked the bracing and spar locations
on the base and removed the pattern. The second use came when I fabricated
a few plywood ribs. I tacked the pattern to the plywood and patern routed
out the parts. They come out identical to the pattern.
Robert Haines
Murphysboro, IL
P.S. - There was a third use, I did swat the cats off the worktable with it
a few times.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Don E.
In the Cont. 65 manual it tells you how you can test each hydraulic lifter
for 'leak-down'. I did this and found I needed several replaced prior to
assy. Also as noted before you can test your valve return springs to see
if they have enough umpfh to keep your valves goot and tight. They are so
easy to check and inexpensive to replace w/ new from Fresno. (first page
of Trade-A-Plane.) It should take alot to push your valves 'in' like a mallet
or wedge w/ a screwdriver.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment |
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
My Opinion: Virt stab is so small that changes in it's position have
little
effect. Rudder is so large that a small trim tab has a large effect.
(My
first setting of the trim tab had me holding lots of opposite rudder
to
correct for the correction!)
Any other thoughts from you Piet flyers?
NX799JK
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree. That is exactly how I did it.
Mike B Piet N687 MB (Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Corky-----Jim Kinsella is right on. Doug B. I bet found this too.
The way the geometry works out on the cables that run from
the stick, under the seat and up to the elevator bell-crank or
walking beam or whatever the heck you want to call it is where
the bug is. You'll have to rig those cables so that they are both
NOT tight at the same time. During all stick travel, at least one
cable is slack and the other pretty taught, and vice-versa.
I had to make my cables three times or so before I eliminated the
binding during full up and down travel. I don't think the pushrod
solution is where your problem is.........but I've been wrong zillions
of times before. Ask Karen;))
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment |
Jim,
Your observations regarding the ineffectiveness of offsetting
the vertical stabilizer, or fin, are consistent with my experience
with Pietenpols.
The VSTAB area is too small to have much effect, and a tab
on the rudder trailing edge is quite effective. Initially I attached
a tab to the rudder (on the left side because the a/c tended to
turn that way) and it worked fine for years. Then I removed the
tab when I recovered my Piet about 16 years ago and never
got around to re-installing it. In cruise, a touch of right rudder is
required to correct the left yaw, but this isn't really a bother be-
cause a Pietenpol is an airplane you have to fly all the time---
particularly in rough air. (Directional stability isn't great in Piets,
particularly with the longer nose and raked-back wing required
for balance with the lighter engines.)
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment (addendum to my earlier post) |
Jim Kinsella and others,
My Pietenpol is powered by a Continental C85. Early on it
had an A65.
The VSTAB is rigged without offset because of its small area
and a rudder tab, when I used it, easily corrected the left yaw
in cruise with either engine installed.
Some day I may re-install the tab, but in my opinion it isn't real-
ly necessary because I don't fly long trips and our air is rarely
smooth enough to notice its effect.
Mounting the engine with some right side thrust was considered
but I never got aroung to trying that option. Has anyone out there
tried the side thrust idea on a Pietenpol? Some a/c use it together
with downthrust (I don't use either on my Piet).
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"piet discussion"
| Subject: | the sweetest sounding 65 that I've heard |
Finally this afternoon poured some gas into my unused tank, checked for
leaks on the whole system,none, and dragged the Piet out through the
snow to the "tie-up tree". In pulling it through, it wouldn't fire. I
had to use a "spritz" of ether. Then it fired, How sweet. The
straight pipes, and the sight of the wood prop, and most of all the
thick wood prop turning, was great.
I had no oil pressure at first for about 30 sec, so I shut it down.
after looking at the manual , saw that it needs priming at the temp.
tube fitting. After putting about 1/4 cup of oil, to wet the gears,
oil pressure came up nicely. 25# @ 600 rpm.
It was idling very rich, but I guess thats good being newly ( two years
ago) being overhauled. Tomorrow I'll do another "wingless flight" and
adjust the idle jet for smoooooooth operation.
How Sweet, How Sweet, How Sweet.
walt's Pietenpol Factory
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | the sweetest sounding 65 that I've heard |
Attaboy, Walt!
I've got to get moving on my A65. I've got all the parts now, except for
the camshaft, but I just need to put it all together. Too busy working on
the fuselage at present. I'm just about finished with the turtledeck and
will finish up with the instrument panels. I can hardlly wait to hear my
Continental ticking over at idle.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: the sweetest sounding 65 that I've heard
Finally this afternoon poured some gas into my unused tank, checked for
leaks on the whole system,none, and dragged the Piet out through the
snow to the "tie-up tree". In pulling it through, it wouldn't fire. I
had to use a "spritz" of ether. Then it fired, How sweet. The
straight pipes, and the sight of the wood prop, and most of all the
thick wood prop turning, was great.
I had no oil pressure at first for about 30 sec, so I shut it down.
after looking at the manual , saw that it needs priming at the temp.
tube fitting. After putting about 1/4 cup of oil, to wet the gears,
oil pressure came up nicely. 25# @ 600 rpm.
It was idling very rich, but I guess thats good being newly ( two years
ago) being overhauled. Tomorrow I'll do another "wingless flight" and
adjust the idle jet for smoooooooth operation.
How Sweet, How Sweet, How Sweet.
walt's Pietenpol Factory
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Malley <jgmalley(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment (addendum to my earlier post) |
I've got 2 degree sidethrust (and 4 degree downthrust) with my Ford
Fiesta. The fin is centered. In those few precious moments of calm air
(between 6 and 6:15 on a summer morning) it flies straight ahead with
feet on the floor.
Jim Malley
Graham Hansen wrote:
>
>
> Jim Kinsella and others,
>
> My Pietenpol is powered by a Continental C85. Early on it
> had an A65.
>
> The VSTAB is rigged without offset because of its small area
> and a rudder tab, when I used it, easily corrected the left yaw
> in cruise with either engine installed.
>
> Some day I may re-install the tab, but in my opinion it isn't real-
> ly necessary because I don't fly long trips and our air is rarely
> smooth enough to notice its effect.
>
> Mounting the engine with some right side thrust was considered
> but I never got aroung to trying that option. Has anyone out there
> tried the side thrust idea on a Pietenpol? Some a/c use it together
> with downthrust (I don't use either on my Piet).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment (addendum to my earlier post) |
<grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Mounting the engine with some right side thrust was considered
but I never got aroung to trying that option. Has anyone out there
tried the side thrust idea on a Pietenpol? Some a/c use it together
with downthrust (I don't use either on my Piet).
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
*****************************************************************************************
My Piet has an 0-200. When I first flew it with engine aligned to the
centerline of the airplane it was a bear. I had a problem keeping it
straight & level. Don't ask about the landing. I tilted the engine to
the right & down by inserting shims between the engine & engine mount.
After that, it almost flys hands off ( in smooth air ).
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Well, after almost a 2 year.. |
hiatus from things aviation related, I am happy to say that I'm back in the Pietenpol
afficianado fold. Hopefully the same enthusiasm that existed 2 years ago
for the Piet hasn't waned, and I can now follow up on my intentions to maybe
even get started on my own project.
I havenoticed some of the same names in the discussion list. The famous Michael
Cuy, and others. In addition, I've noticed quite a few new (in the last 2 years)
people which gives mehope that maybe there is someone at the same point (not
started yet) as I. I probably will depend a lot on the list to not only direct
me in the right directiontechnically,but also to keep your enthusiasm and
encouragement constant.
My intentions are to build a 'Vair powered Air Camper with a 3 piece wing, and
maybe even make some width and length modifications. Nothing drastic....just within
thelimits of what has already been done andtested. Any suggestions pro or
con? Anythingdrastically changed over the last couple of years?Are thesuppliers
ofplans (D. Pietenpol), modifications (3 piecewing), supplies, the same?
Anyway, glad to be back. I look forward to reading the comments on every thing
in this message board.
Larry Ragan
Jacksonville, Fl.
lragan(at)hotmail.com
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plywood gussets |
| From: | "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com> |
Wayne Meier home phone # is 651-882-9035. He lives in Eagan MN,
Dale MPLS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
I just want to say that for someone who's been "watching" this group for
a while now and now starting to use it, this may be one of the most
useful tools anyone can have in their shop... Or living room, whatever.
A special thanks to the guys who've built their ships, and could easily
go on and have a ball without us current builders, your knowledge and
experience is a great asset. Anyway, I'll stop blowing wind up peoples
skirts now...
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
I'm new to the list. I've followed it for some time now. The good mister Brant
is right, lots of great
and useful stuff here.
My name is Clif Dawson. I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca
I've got my tail feathers done, in western hemlock, all my control horns, the rib
jig and all the bits
for the ribs cut, also hemlock. This is nice wood to work with.
The rib question is interesting and has cropped up many times over the years. This
should be the
one prime cut and dried piece of information for the plane, considering its importance.
When I
plotted it out I found some significant deviations. The one that stands out in
my mind now was a
1/8" dip in the top curve just north of the rear spar. There was another one closer
to the nose but
I can't remember it now. Remember that Bernie and his sidekick eyeballed this thing
after dinner
one night so if you fudge the thing a little to compensate for these discrepencies
it probably
won't have much affect. I drew out the co-ordinates on my board,placed the spars,put
small nails
at the ends of all the ordinates minus a quarter of an inch for cap thickness and
splined the
curve with a cap strip securing it with more nails on the outside. I let it fair
over the dipsydoodles
and drew it out. Just make sure to leave adequate spar clearence whatever method
you use!!
Another thing, I found a neat little program called RCAD for RC aircraft. On the
side view you
plug in your own formers to shape the fuselage, either with mouse or keyed in numbers.
Has it
hit you yet? I keyed in the rib ordinates and printed out a full rib pattern on
8.5x11 sheets of
paper in place of a fuselage. It's a simple little program and fun to play with.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
You cheese-heads probably already know about this:
>Brodhead, Wisconsin. Groundhog Day/Chili Skiplane Fly-In/Drive-In
>takes place February 2 at Brodhead Airport (C37). Call 262/215-9388
>for event information.
Anybody "ski in" in a Ski-tenpol?
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Running an A-65 Cont. on the 1933 or short fuse. Piet, I tried
to give a bit of engine off-set by installing more washers (the big thick
fender type washers) on the upper and lower left side motor mounts.
Tony B.'s books tell about flight testing to see if your wings/ailerons, etc
are out of whack and or if your rudder needs tweaked. I ended up with
a small alum. fixed trim on the rudder and that did the trick with the
right rudder input. One thing I found important, (and I think I read this
in Don Pietenpols manual that I bought with the plans maybe ?) was
A) when you tighten up your horiz. stab., make sure both left and right
sides are at the same angle of attack. Same with the split elevators.
If you rig one flipper higher or lower than the other you certainly feel it
in a rolling tendency when airborne. I did this when replacing a frayed
elev. cable and had to adjust a turnbuckle on one elev. to fix it.
No big deal, but keep it in mind as a possible source for your plane drifting
this way and that when hands off. Wing wash out too can make you
drift if not equal. But this is the fun part of flight testing. Adjust,
fly, land.
Adjust, fly, land. Adjust, fly, fly, fly, fly, land.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Never had much luck with pic sites, but I tried Yahoo tonight. Can you
guys go to this site and see if you can see my photos?
Thanks, struts were this summer, and running was today.
thanks,
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
lets see if this goes thru.
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
If the last doesn't work, this can be cut and pasted.
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi, folks;
I snagged the image of Walt's Piet and uploaded it to my site, at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/waltpiet.jpg if you didn't get the yahoo
URL. It looks like what we have here is a spoked-wheel bird with a
dead-flat wing (no dihedral), the extended fuselage, something other than a
Ford engine planned, vertical cabane struts (for now), and a workspace
that's almost as homey and appealing as Corky's. Sure beats the heck out of
the 1/4 of a 2-car garage that I have ;o)
But pretty soon I'll be back in Texas and the wide-open spaces! Probably by
May...
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Whew,
Let's try this for my pic site.
in1&.ord
rcph%26.
viewl
Might have to cut and paste that whole string.
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: trying again |
Forget it.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: trying again
>
> Whew,
> Let's try this for my pic site.
> in1&.ord
> rcph%26.
> viewl
>
> Might have to cut and paste that whole string.
> walt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | I'm still trying |
Oh well, Can't seem to get it to work. If anyone wants the site, I'll
send it to you personally. Not to go on and on, but the guys/girls who
have past this point will remember, and the ones who haven't been there
yet ,have no idea of the rush when you walk around your plane when it's
sitting there idling, and the pipes are echoing off the houses nearby.
walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Walter, what is your Yahoo ID?
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
> evans
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 3:56 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trying again
>
>
>
>
> Forget it.
> walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> To: "piet discussion"
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: trying again
>
>
>
> >
> > Whew,
> > Let's try this for my pic site.
> > in1&.ord
> > rcph%26.
> > viewl
> >
> > Might have to cut and paste that whole string.
> > walt
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
It is always better to move the stab than to try to displace a control
surface. Reasons are numerous but first: Trim tabs are ugly. Second, a
displaced surface allows more control surface displacement from neutral in
more direction than the other. Third, it is very easy on a piet to find and
install the correct trim tab-less setting for cruise flight by making a few
new fittings. (you always adjust for trim neutral in cruise). Fourth, a
displaced surface causes more drag (hey, if you can find ten places to get
one mile per hour, then you are going ten miles per hour faster) and
increases fuel burn.
Fifth, it is in bad taste.
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
>
> Ted:
> I started out with the virt stab 1/2" off center, added another 1/2" with
> little or no change in rudder pressure. Ended up adding a 4" x 6" alum
trim
> tab to the rudder with a very slight angle on it. This easily took care
of
> it.
>
> My Opinion: Virt stab is so small that changes in it's position have
little
> effect. Rudder is so large that a small trim tab has a large effect. (My
> first setting of the trim tab had me holding lots of opposite rudder to
> correct for the correction!)
>
> Any other thoughts from you Piet flyers?
>
> NX799JK
>
>
> >From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
> >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:31:42 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Ted,
> >
> >I covered both ends. I drilled two sets of holes for the forward mount
for
> >the vertical fin - one set centered and one set offset to the left by
about
> >1 degree, which worked out (as I remember) to about 3/4'" . With the
rear
> >mount attached it is still possible to shift the leading edge over
> >sufficiently to attach to the offset holes. I will start off with it
> >centered, but if I find it needs right rudder in level flight, I can
shift
> >it over fairly easily.
> >
> >Jack
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
> >Brousseau
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:16 PM
> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment
> >
> >
> >I am getting ready to cover my horizontal stabilizer and have a last
minute
> >question. Should the holes for mounting the VSTAB be drilled to have the
> >VSTAB perfectly straight and aligned with the fuselage? Or should it be
> >offset a little one way or the other to compensate for P factor or prop
> >wash
> >(or something else!)?
> >
> >Ted
> >
> >Learning that just when you think you understand welding you find out you
> >don't.
> >
> >
>
>
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | NEW KID ON THE BLOCK |
I've been lollowing this discussion for some time now, and think that I
should sign on. I have my plans, from Don, a place to work, Compton Airport
here in the LOS ANGELES Area, and, just this afternoon, climbed into an Air
Camper.
I certainly thought that I would build a steel fuselage, but the deeper I get
into this thing, the more I want to build with wood. We are having trouble
with spruce deliveries down here, so I'm going to go with kiln dried fir.
There is 1.13 cu. ft of longerons, struts and braces, and at 30 lbs per
cu.ft, I don't think that there is much of a penalty weight wise.
There are a number of us here who are in the construction phase.
I'm looking forward to going to Oshkosh this year, so Brodhead is in my plans
too. The owner of the Piet I sat in today said I shouldn't miss Brodhead!
I used to do stress analysis for Douglas, and aerodynamic loads.
Looking forward to lots of things!
Carl Lekven at ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment |
Chris,
You are absolutely correct in your analysis regarding adjusting
the fixed surface rather than using a tab to displace the control
surface.
However, in my experience with five different Pietenpols over
the years I have found the vertical stab. (fin) needed to be offset
beyond the limits imposed by the position of the fitting holes in
the forward horizontal stab. (tailplane). On a completed airplane,
drilling extra holes wasn't felt to be a good thing to do and we
therefore resorted to the "trim tab trick" (say this fast!).
I have found that the control surface (the rudder, in this case) on
a Piet is large and needs to be displaced very little---particularly
when the gap between the VSTAB and rudder is sealed (with
fabric on my a/c)--- to correct yaw. (In fact, I sealed all control sur-
faces with fabric on my Piet after trying it without gap seals.) As
a result, one doesn't need a very large tab to do the job and the
ugliness factor is reduced accordingly.
A friend built the first post-war Pietenpol in these parts in the early
1960's. Initially, he built the VSTAB and rudder according to the
plans. He wasn't satisfied with the small VSTAB and built a new
VSTAB which was much larger to improve directional stability. Off-
setting it only slightly easily corrected left yaw in cruise---which didn't
happen with the standard surface. The downside was that it didn't
look like a Pietenpol tail anymore.
The horizontal stabilizer, on the other hand, is comfortably large and
it is possible to achieve "hands-off" cruise by adjusting its incidence.
The limiting factor here is the alignment of the lower rudder hinge on
the stern post because the VSTAB is attached to the horizontal stab.
and moves with it when the incidence is changed. A possible fix for
this is to have a ball-type rod end attached to the fuselage sternpost
for a self-aligning lower rudder hinge. (I didn't think of this when I built
my Piet, but wish I had.)
When you find ten places to gain one mile per hour, for a total of ten
mph on a Pietenpol, please tell me because it seems this design has
a "hull speed" which is difficult to improve upon. (Actually, one should
never be in a hurry when flying a Pietenpol or sailing a sailboat, in any
case.) And if I were to install fairings, etc. it wouldn't look like a
Pieten-
pol anymore.
But your observations are certainly correct. I have a Piper Vagabond
("Wag-A-Bond") I built a few years back and it flies "hands and feet off"
in cruise without any tabs anywhere, in support of your post. However,
it is an advanced design compared to the Pietenpol.
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK |
Welcome aboard Carl!
ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>I've been lollowing this discussion for some time now, and think that I
>should sign on. I have my plans, from Don, a place to work, Compton Airport
>here in the LOS ANGELES Area, and, just this afternoon, climbed into an Air
>Camper.
>
>I certainly thought that I would build a steel fuselage, but the deeper I get
>into this thing, the more I want to build with wood. We are having trouble
>with spruce deliveries down here, so I'm going to go with kiln dried fir.
>There is 1.13 cu. ft of longerons, struts and braces, and at 30 lbs per
>cu.ft, I don't think that there is much of a penalty weight wise.
>
>There are a number of us here who are in the construction phase.
>
>I'm looking forward to going to Oshkosh this year, so Brodhead is in my plans
>too. The owner of the Piet I sat in today said I shouldn't miss Brodhead!
>
>I used to do stress analysis for Douglas, and aerodynamic loads.
>
>Looking forward to lots of things!
>
>Carl Lekven at ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: trying again |
joepiet
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: trying again
>
> Walter, what is your Yahoo ID?
>
> -Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
> > evans
> > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 3:56 PM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trying again
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Forget it.
> > walt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> > To: "piet discussion"
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: trying again
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Whew,
> > > Let's try this for my pic site.
> > > in1&.ord
> > > rcph%26.
> > > viewl
> > >
> > > Might have to cut and paste that whole string.
> > > walt
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | NEW KID ON THE BLOCK |
Carl,
Good to have you here. we need a structures guy.
Chris bobka
Flying the QUALITY Douglas DC-9 for NWA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Neal" <llneal2(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK
>
> Welcome aboard Carl!
>
>
> ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> >I've been lollowing this discussion for some time now, and think that I
> >should sign on. I have my plans, from Don, a place to work, Compton
Airport
> >here in the LOS ANGELES Area, and, just this afternoon, climbed into an
Air
> >Camper.
> >
> >I certainly thought that I would build a steel fuselage, but the deeper I
get
> >into this thing, the more I want to build with wood. We are having
trouble
> >with spruce deliveries down here, so I'm going to go with kiln dried fir.
> >There is 1.13 cu. ft of longerons, struts and braces, and at 30 lbs per
> >cu.ft, I don't think that there is much of a penalty weight wise.
> >
> >There are a number of us here who are in the construction phase.
> >
> >I'm looking forward to going to Oshkosh this year, so Brodhead is in my
plans
> >too. The owner of the Piet I sat in today said I shouldn't miss Brodhead!
> >
> >I used to do stress analysis for Douglas, and aerodynamic loads.
> >
> >Looking forward to lots of things!
> >
> >Carl Lekven at ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Walt, Oscar posted it for you. Nice shot. Gets kinda big in the yard when
you attach those wings.
Carl
Please visit my website at
www.megsinet.net/skycarl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter evans
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trying again
Forget it.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: trying again
>
> Whew,
> Let's try this for my pic site.
> in1&.ord
> rcph%26.
> viewl
>
> Might have to cut and paste that whole string.
> walt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
This should work.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
> McNeel, Jr.
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 5:24 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: trying again
>
>
>
>
> Walter, what is your Yahoo ID?
>
> -Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
> > evans
> > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 3:56 PM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trying again
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Forget it.
> > walt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> > To: "piet discussion"
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: trying again
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Whew,
> > > Let's try this for my pic site.
> > > in1&.ord
> > > rcph%26.
> > > viewl
> > >
> > > Might have to cut and paste that whole string.
> > > walt
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
I believe several years ago either EAA or someone elsepublished a list of woods
that were acceptable for aircraft construction. The pros and cons of each were
listed along with each characteristic.
Does anyone remember this or any other references to this subject?
Thanks
Larry Ragan
Jacksonville, Fl.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wood used... |
Larry,
This a clip from someone awhile ago that I saved. Maybe it will be some
help.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I've looked up some properties for some alternative woods to sitka spruce
from the "Wood Handbook".
$
For Sitka Spruce:
Spec. Grav.=0.40
Mod. of Rup.=10,200psi
Mod. of Elast.=1,570psi
Shear parallel to grain=1,150psi
$
$
For Yellow Poplar:
Spec. Grav.=0.42
Mod. of Rup.=10,100psi
Mod. of Elast.=1,580psi
Shear parallel to grain=1,190psi
$
$
For Western Hemlock:
Spec. Grav.=0.45
Mod. of Rup.=11,300psi
Mod. of Elast.=1,630psi
Shear parallel to grain=1,290psi
$
$
For Douglas Fir:
Spec. Grav.=0.48
Mod. of Rup.=12,400psi
Mod. of Elast.=1,950psi
Shear parallel to grain=1,130psi
$
$
For Black Walnut:
Spec. Grav.=0.35
Mod. of Rup.=14,600psi
Mod. of Elast.=1,680psi
Shear parallel to grain=1,370psi
$
$
For Red Pine:
Spec. Grav.=0.46
Mod. of Rup.=11,000psi
Mod. of Elast.=1,630psi
Shear parallel to grain=1,210psi
Hope this helps!
Jacob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood used...
>
>
>
I believe several years ago either EAA or someone elsepublished a
list of woods that were acceptable for aircraft construction. The pros
and cons of each were listed along with each characteristic.
>
Does anyone remember this or any other references to this subject?
>
Thanks
>
Larry Ragan
>
Jacksonville, Fl.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Czaplicki" <fishin(at)wwa.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Off topic, put your GPS to work |
Thought I might share this with those of you with hand held GPSs who
want to have a little non aviation related fun with it. Check out
GEOCACHING.COM . I was introduced to this by my son. If you enjoy the
outdoors (other than aviation which we all do) then this just might be a
fun challenge for those of you with an adventurous heart.
Enjoy
JoeC 99621 in cold NE Illinois trying to rid myself of a nasty
head cold
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Off topic, put your GPS to work |
Be sure to take a compass along too. It is lots of fun and
can be quite difficult.
Dave
N36078
>
>
>Thought I might share this with those of you with hand held GPSs who
>want to have a little non aviation related fun with it. Check out
>GEOCACHING.COM . I was introduced to this by my son. If you enjoy the
>outdoors (other than aviation which we all do) then this just might be a
>fun challenge for those of you with an adventurous heart.
>Enjoy
>JoeC 99621 in cold NE Illinois trying to rid myself of a nasty
>head cold
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Forget the photo I had on my site; Walt put up a bunch more at
all. Walt's just had trouble pasting in the URL for us to get to the site.
Take a look at it; now there are photos of his engine running, and a change
of seasons ;o) Corky's probably never had snow like this under his trees
down in Cajun country.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "twinboom" <twinboom(at)email.msn.com> |
| Subject: | Jenks area builders? |
Been monitoring the list for a while. Still waiting to get the bucks for the
plans, but you guys know how that goes..... I have a friend in the Jenks
OK., area intrested in meeting some other Piet builders. If you would not
mind sending me your info, phone numbers ect, I will forward, or you can
contact him directly.
Greg Aumen
918-298-2624
Greg & Debi Aumen
E-mail Address(es):
debi_teaches(at)yahoo.com
Thanks for any responses,
Doug Blackburn, Arrowbear Lake, So. Cal.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca.
<http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ISR>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Aeroquip 303 hoses |
Hello, folks;
I'm sure there are tricks to installing fittings on Aeroquip 303 hoses. No
matter how carefully the hose is cut, even with tape wrapped around the hose
when cutting, the fabric outer braid seems to be just the slightest bit
larger OD than the ID of the collar that screws on over the fitting to hold
the hose in place, so it frays when I try to push the collar on. Is there a
trick to getting the collar on over the fabric braid without fraying it? I
was thinking of making some sort of metal cone or something.
Hints, tips, or ideas? Thanks.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroquip 303 hoses |
Oscar,
I used to cut braided steel hoses for cars with an abrasive cut-off
wheel. The trick was to wrap with tape and be as patient as possible
with the cut so as not to disturb the fibers.
Hope it helps.
Larry
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
>Hello, folks;
>
>I'm sure there are tricks to installing fittings on Aeroquip 303 hoses. No
>matter how carefully the hose is cut, even with tape wrapped around the hose
>when cutting, the fabric outer braid seems to be just the slightest bit
>larger OD than the ID of the collar that screws on over the fitting to hold
>the hose in place, so it frays when I try to push the collar on. Is there a
>trick to getting the collar on over the fabric braid without fraying it? I
>was thinking of making some sort of metal cone or something.
>
>Hints, tips, or ideas? Thanks.
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>Medford, Oregon
>mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary L Bell" <glbell(at)midohio.net> |
Hello Piet Builders and Fliers
I am one of those guys that have been on the list for a year now and
on the side lines. Most questions by following the discussions have been
answered. And by going to the archives I have been able to answer other
questions I have had you fliers once builders have asked. I am going to
get into the egg money and buy the turnbuckles, shackles, shackle pins
and cable thimbles I need for this project. I am going to use 3/32 cable
on the tail brace wires ,elevator control, aileron control and cabin
cross braces. I will use 1/8 cable on the rudder, wing drag and anti
drag wires, strut bracing and joy stick to walking beam. Looks like I
need 20ea AN 130 -16S and 14ea AN 130-22S and 1 AN135-16S. These
turnbuckles have a cable eye on one end and a fork on the other. Does
this sound like the turnbuckles that most of you have used? I am going
to buy them from A&S account they give a 10% or 15% discount if one buys
10 or more of one item.
Just as a note I have the Fuselage on the cub style gear, tail
assembly, Wynn Corvair engine mount, 3 piece wing center section with 13
gallon fiberglass fuel tank constructed. The wings, engine and cowling
are left to do. I have been at it part time for two years and 3 months
now with 40% done and as you all know 98% to go.
Thanks All
Gary Bell
Delaware, Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VSTAB alignment |
Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts on alignment of the VSTAB. I
covered the HSTAB. I can't put into words how exciting it was to see all
that woodwork come to life when fully dressed. As it tightened with heat
the thrill grew. I brought it home but my wife wouldn't let me sleep with
it. Somehow she didn't understand. It wasn't quite the same as my first
solo, but just about. Those of you who aren't there yet don't know what you
are about to experience. Those of you who have done it know what I mean.
Builders, keep the faith and keep up that progress.
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Mike,
I have an 0-200 for my Piet. My Piet is the normal length for a Model A.
Is yours the longer fuselage? Is your motor mount different from the one in
the "improved" plans?
Thanks,
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: VSTAB alignment (addendum to my earlier post)
>
>
> <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
>
>
> Mounting the engine with some right side thrust was considered
> but I never got aroung to trying that option. Has anyone out there
> tried the side thrust idea on a Pietenpol? Some a/c use it together
> with downthrust (I don't use either on my Piet).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)
>
>
> *************************************************************************> ****************
>
> My Piet has an 0-200. When I first flew it with engine aligned to the
> centerline of the airplane it was a bear. I had a problem keeping it
> straight & level. Don't ask about the landing. I tilted the engine to
> the right & down by inserting shims between the engine & engine mount.
> After that, it almost flys hands off ( in smooth air ).
>
> Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroquip 303 hoses |
I can usually cut the hoses without tape even. After it is cut, take a pair
of dykes (c'mon, no jokes, diagonal cutters) and cut a very slight 45 bevel
on the edge to clean off any fraying. The collar threads on LEFT HANDED
fairly easily. The center is harder to thread on unless you have an
installation mandrel, although you can do it with a fitting.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Michelle Brant" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
To those of you who've gotten the drawing I put on CAD, please let me
know if there are any errors...
That is all.
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Gary,
I've never actually counted the turnbuckles (scared to know exactly how much
I've got invested in them) but your numbers sound about right. I used only
AN130-16S and AN130-8S, no -22's. 7x19 stainless 1/8" cable has a breaking
strength of 1760 lbs. And the -16's are rated at 1600 lbs., but that rating
is with three threads exposed on each side (maximum allowable) As long as
you have less than three threads exposed, they should be stronger than that,
and will be approximately as strong as the cable (and lighter and cheaper
than the -22's).
Why use 1/8" cable on the rudder? The plans call for 3/32" and it is more
than adeguate, with a 920 lb. Breaking strength (I guarentee you the rudder
won't withstand a 920 lb. Load) and 1/8" cable weighs nearly twice as much
as 3/32" (.029 lb/ft vs .0174 lb/ft., assuming both are 7x19). With
approximately 25 feet of rudder cable, the weight penalty for 1/8" would be
over a quarter of a pound, with a large moment arm from the CG. Remember
the quote from Bill Stout that someone on this list is fond of quoting:
"Simplicate and add Lightness".
Good luck,
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Bell
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turmbuckles
Hello Piet Builders and Fliers
I am one of those guys that have been on the list for a year now and
on the side lines. Most questions by following the discussions have been
answered. And by going to the archives I have been able to answer other
questions I have had you fliers once builders have asked. I am going to
get into the egg money and buy the turnbuckles, shackles, shackle pins
and cable thimbles I need for this project. I am going to use 3/32 cable
on the tail brace wires ,elevator control, aileron control and cabin
cross braces. I will use 1/8 cable on the rudder, wing drag and anti
drag wires, strut bracing and joy stick to walking beam. Looks like I
need 20ea AN 130 -16S and 14ea AN 130-22S and 1 AN135-16S. These
turnbuckles have a cable eye on one end and a fork on the other. Does
this sound like the turnbuckles that most of you have used? I am going
to buy them from A&S account they give a 10% or 15% discount if one buys
10 or more of one item.
Just as a note I have the Fuselage on the cub style gear, tail
assembly, Wynn Corvair engine mount, 3 piece wing center section with 13
gallon fiberglass fuel tank constructed. The wings, engine and cowling
are left to do. I have been at it part time for two years and 3 months
now with 40% done and as you all know 98% to go.
Thanks All
Gary Bell
Delaware, Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wood used... |
| From: | john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
writes:
>
>
>
I believe several years ago either EAA or someone
> elsepublished a list of woods that were acceptable for
> aircraft construction. The pros and cons of each were listed
> along with each characteristic.
>
Does anyone remember this or any other references to this
> subject?
Larry,
I have an article from Sport Aviation which is extremely good. "A Closer
Look at some Alternatives to Sitka Apruce in Aircraft Construction" by
Eugene L Parker. Unfortunately, I do not know what issue it was from (I
believe it was from the early eighties). You can either call the EAA and
have them send you a photocopy of the article, or send me a SASE and I
can send you a copy of my copy. (If you would, slip in an extra stamp,
so I can reimburse the church for the photocopy.)
John Fay
2203 W. Virginia
Peoria, IL. 61604
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | NX-registration numbers |
Hello, all;
After viewing Mike Cuy's video (again), I caught the comment about getting
NX-registration numbers. Searching FAR 45.22 I found the reference to a
30-year-old design, so apparently it can be done. Now- did I misunderstand
the statement that the passenger notification placard could also be
dispensed with, or did my mind hiccup? I can't find an FAR that allows the
passenger notification placard to be deleted for
antique/experimental/exhibition aircraft, no matter the age.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Tampa Floriday area piets? |
Hi All,
I'll be in Tampa, FL tomorrow, Jan 22, (yes I know, short notice....sorry) and
would love to visit/photograph any Piets (in progress OR flying) in the Tampa
area.
Hope to arrive around noon and will be staying near Tampa International for a meeting
Wednesday morning at 10:00am. And I'll have a car so if you're within
a couple of hour's drive, I'll come to you!
And I don't care if you haven't done much.....I want to see!
(Sorry to take up list space with this request but I can't help myself!!)
And please reply direct....all I get is the digest.....
Jim Markle
Dallas, TX
469-371-0669
just cut/bent my first cap strip and schellaced the rib template down to a piece
of wood....I can already feel the breeze in my face!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Skip Gadd" <csfog(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Off topic, put your GPS to work |
>Check out
>GEOCACHING.COM
>Enjoy
>JoeC 99621
Thanks Joe, Cinda and I just found a cache close to home and had a blast.
I recommend it.
Skip
--- Skip + Cinda Gadd
--- csfog(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary L Bell" <glbell(at)midohio.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turmbuckles
>
> Hello Piet Builders and Fliers
> I am one of those guys that have been on the list for a year now and
> on the side lines. Most questions by following the discussions have been
> answered. And by going to the archives I have been able to answer other
> questions I have had you fliers once builders have asked. I am going to
> get into the egg money and buy the turnbuckles, shackles, shackle pins
> and cable thimbles I need for this project. I am going to use 3/32 cable
> on the tail brace wires ,elevator control, aileron control and cabin
> cross braces. I will use 1/8 cable on the rudder, wing drag and anti
> drag wires, strut bracing and joy stick to walking beam. Looks like I
> need 20ea AN 130 -16S and 14ea AN 130-22S and 1 AN135-16S. These
> turnbuckles have a cable eye on one end and a fork on the other. Does
> this sound like the turnbuckles that most of you have used? I am going
> to buy them from A&S account they give a 10% or 15% discount if one buys
> 10 or more of one item.
> Just as a note I have the Fuselage on the cub style gear, tail
> assembly, Wynn Corvair engine mount, 3 piece wing center section with 13
> gallon fiberglass fuel tank constructed. The wings, engine and cowling
> are left to do. I have been at it part time for two years and 3 months
> now with 40% done and as you all know 98% to go.
>
> Thanks All
> Gary Bell
> Delaware, Ohio
> =============================================================
Gary,
Before you rush out and pay the prices for turnbuckles that AS offers, you
might check with B&B Aircraft Supply. I no longer have their phone number
or address, but they advertise regularly in Trade a Plane and you can look
it up there. They offer used turnbuckles that cost a whole lot less than
the new ones and work just as well.
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NX-registration numbers |
You must always have the passenger notification placard. Using an NX number
can take the place of the big EXPERIMENTAL where you enter the ship.
chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX-registration numbers
>
> Hello, all;
>
> After viewing Mike Cuy's video (again), I caught the comment about getting
> NX-registration numbers. Searching FAR 45.22 I found the reference to a
> 30-year-old design, so apparently it can be done. Now- did I
misunderstand
> the statement that the passenger notification placard could also be
> dispensed with, or did my mind hiccup? I can't find an FAR that allows
the
> passenger notification placard to be deleted for
> antique/experimental/exhibition aircraft, no matter the age.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, Oregon
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 0-200 mounts |
Mike,
I have an 0-200 for my Piet. My Piet is the normal length for a Model
A.
Is yours the longer fuselage? Is your motor mount different from the
one in
the "improved" plans?
Thanks,
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
=
=
Hi Ted;
MY Piet is the long fuselage. Had an "A" in it for two years, More
trouble than it was worth. Found a buyer for the same money that the
0-200 cost.
The mount was made by Chad Willie. Don't know if it the same as the
print, but it works.
I am a snow bird in Lake Worth Fl. My Piet is in Saratoga NY. I have
been to Naples several times. Was out to the airport. There is a Piet
out there.I left my card, but the guy never said hello.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> |
Re; the reference to B & B Aircraft Supplies:
they are located at 31905 W 175th Street
Gardner Municipal Airport
Gardner, KS 66030
Phone: 913-884-5930
Fax: 913-884-6533
They are at Sun-n-Fun and probably Oshkosh too.
Definitely worth a call on all AN hardware items.
I bought a lot of stuff from them and am well satisfied; their prices sure
beat AS and similar outfits.
Lou Larsen (started covering last week)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary L Bell" <glbell(at)midohio.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turmbuckles
>
> Hello Piet Builders and Fliers
> I am one of those guys that have been on the list for a year now and
> on the side lines. Most questions by following the discussions have been
> answered. And by going to the archives I have been able to answer other
> questions I have had you fliers once builders have asked. I am going to
> get into the egg money and buy the turnbuckles, shackles, shackle pins
> and cable thimbles I need for this project. I am going to use 3/32 cable
> on the tail brace wires ,elevator control, aileron control and cabin
> cross braces. I will use 1/8 cable on the rudder, wing drag and anti
> drag wires, strut bracing and joy stick to walking beam. Looks like I
> need 20ea AN 130 -16S and 14ea AN 130-22S and 1 AN135-16S. These
> turnbuckles have a cable eye on one end and a fork on the other. Does
> this sound like the turnbuckles that most of you have used? I am going
> to buy them from A&S account they give a 10% or 15% discount if one buys
> 10 or more of one item.
> Just as a note I have the Fuselage on the cub style gear, tail
> assembly, Wynn Corvair engine mount, 3 piece wing center section with 13
> gallon fiberglass fuel tank constructed. The wings, engine and cowling
> are left to do. I have been at it part time for two years and 3 months
> now with 40% done and as you all know 98% to go.
>
> Thanks All
> Gary Bell
> Delaware, Ohio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary L Bell" <glbell(at)midohio.net> |
Thank You All for the reply on turnbuckles and cable size. I'll check out
B&B Aircraft Supply.
Making trees into wings
Gary Bell
Delaware, Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turmbuckles
>
> Re; the reference to B & B Aircraft Supplies:
>
> they are located at 31905 W 175th Street
> Gardner Municipal Airport
> Gardner, KS 66030
> Phone: 913-884-5930
> Fax: 913-884-6533
>
> They are at Sun-n-Fun and probably Oshkosh too.
>
> Definitely worth a call on all AN hardware items.
>
> I bought a lot of stuff from them and am well satisfied; their prices sure
> beat AS and similar outfits.
>
> Lou Larsen (started covering last week)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary L Bell" <glbell(at)midohio.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turmbuckles
>
>
> >
> > Hello Piet Builders and Fliers
> > I am one of those guys that have been on the list for a year now and
> > on the side lines. Most questions by following the discussions have been
> > answered. And by going to the archives I have been able to answer other
> > questions I have had you fliers once builders have asked. I am going to
> > get into the egg money and buy the turnbuckles, shackles, shackle pins
> > and cable thimbles I need for this project. I am going to use 3/32 cable
> > on the tail brace wires ,elevator control, aileron control and cabin
> > cross braces. I will use 1/8 cable on the rudder, wing drag and anti
> > drag wires, strut bracing and joy stick to walking beam. Looks like I
> > need 20ea AN 130 -16S and 14ea AN 130-22S and 1 AN135-16S. These
> > turnbuckles have a cable eye on one end and a fork on the other. Does
> > this sound like the turnbuckles that most of you have used? I am going
> > to buy them from A&S account they give a 10% or 15% discount if one buys
> > 10 or more of one item.
> > Just as a note I have the Fuselage on the cub style gear, tail
> > assembly, Wynn Corvair engine mount, 3 piece wing center section with 13
> > gallon fiberglass fuel tank constructed. The wings, engine and cowling
> > are left to do. I have been at it part time for two years and 3 months
> > now with 40% done and as you all know 98% to go.
> >
> > Thanks All
> > Gary Bell
> > Delaware, Ohio
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
The publication your looking for is sport aviation(EAA) of sept 1984, "A closer
look at some alternatives to
sitka spruce in aircraft construction". It covers spruce,west hemlock,port orford
and yellow cedars,the true firs,
doug fir,pines,etc. Catagories are Static bending,compression parallel to grain(most
important for us),comp.
across grain,shear parallel to grain(bolt holding as in tha ends of struts) and
tension across grain(splitting,
bolt holding). Paragraphs on each wood.
I have checked locally for spruce. It will cost me $750+shipping for set of spars
only,hemlock is at $500+.
I found a source of yellow cedar for $250 one hour from home. The chart shows yellow
cedar exeeding all
the spruce strengths by 12 to 15 % and the weight is the same also it is more than
twice as rot resistant.
I discussed this choice with my local inspector and it has been ok'ed. No worry
about grain minimum as
this stuff grows at more than 30 per inch. Wonderful to work with also.
Oh, I'm quoting in Canadian dollars. One US=1.5 Can approx.
Bumper Sticker-"Who put a stop payment on my reality check?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
>
>The publication your looking for is sport aviation(EAA) of sept 1984, "A
>closer look at some alternatives to
>sitka spruce in aircraft construction". It covers spruce,west hemlock,port
>orford and yellow cedars,the true firs,
>doug fir,pines,etc. Catagories are Static bending,compression parallel to
>grain(most important for us),comp.
>across grain,shear parallel to grain(bolt holding as in tha ends of
>struts) and tension across grain(splitting,
>bolt holding). Paragraphs on each wood.
>I have checked locally for spruce. It will cost me $750+shipping for set
>of spars only,hemlock is at $500+.
>I found a source of yellow cedar for $250 one hour from home. The chart
>shows yellow cedar exeeding all
>the spruce strengths by 12 to 15 % and the weight is the same also it is
>more than twice as rot resistant.
>I discussed this choice with my local inspector and it has been ok'ed. No
>worry about grain minimum as
>this stuff grows at more than 30 per inch. Wonderful to work with also.
>Oh, I'm quoting in Canadian dollars. One US=1.5 Can approx.
Clif,
This yellow cedar sounds quite interesting, does the article have any
information regrding Yellow Poplar? I'm curious to know if its
characteristics would make it suitable for spars. I seem to recall at least
one Piet that was built by a guy who used a poplar tree that he cut off of
his own land - think it was in an old BPA newsletter for that matter.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner (getting acquainted with his recently acquired project)
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
Bumper Sticker of the week:
'Everyone is entitled to act stupid, but you're abusing the priviledge'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Kip,
Your talking about Larry Harrison's Poplar Piet. I went to southern Alabama
to see it when it came out in Sport Av or Experimenter, wanted to see the
Chevy 2.5L he used for power. Very nice work both plane and engine. Bert
Conoly knows Larry and has flown this plane.
Larry used spruce for top and bottom longerons and I believe spars. Not sure
if the rest was Yellow Poplar or some other Poplar.
Bob Gilbert from the Asheville EAA chapter did some testing of Poplar for
me, have the results somewhere, but as best I remember it is about the same
weight, stronger in compression, think about the same as spruce in tension.
Where the problem comes in is bending, it is not near as good as spruce, the
wood fibers are a lot shorter than spruce.
I would contact Larry before I used it, I think I could come up with his
phone and address.
Skip working on landing gear in Atlanta
>regarding Yellow Poplar?
>Kip Gardner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gdascomb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Replicraft Aviation. |
Anyone know the current status of this company? I know they recently changed
their name and now the web site seems to be shut down . I tried to confirm my
tail hardware order by e-mail...but got no reply.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | wood in Pietenpol Air Camper |
Here is my website and photos of fuselage under construction. Story on the wood
too! Did not go to regular suppliers. They were too expensive.
http://members.tripod.com/~speculation/pietenpolplaneconstruction.html
FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community
http://www.FindLaw.com
Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!
http://mail.Justice.com
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/22/02 12:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< Kip Gardner (getting acquainted with his recently acquired project)
>>
Can you tell us more about the project you acquired ?
What all did you get?
How much did it set you back?
What kind of guarantee did you get ?
-dennis the menace
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
>
>In a message dated 1/22/02 12:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
><< Kip Gardner (getting acquainted with his recently acquired project)
> >>
>Can you tell us more about the project you acquired ?
>What all did you get?
>How much did it set you back?
>What kind of guarantee did you get ?
>-dennis the menace
Dennis!
Pretty rude of you to mention the 'G' word :).
Actually, I think I got a pretty good project, all in all. It's a long-fuse
version, which suits me as I plan on using a corvair engine. Bought it from
Pat Letarte in Cincinnati & got it home here to Canton with the help of a
member of the Wadsworth,OH EAA chapter who just happened to own a 26'
enclosed trailer that which he uses to haul around the Ultralights his Co.
sells. Anyone interested in a UL should check out the Aerolite Co. in
Millersburg, OH (there, that's my payback to Bob for his help!).
What I got was a nearly completed fuse, 1 set of ribs on 3/4" spars
(right-hand wing panel) & a second set ready for the left panel, more or
less. All tail surfaces, ready to go on fuse. Also, a cub-style gear, about
2/3 fabricated & wheels of unknown usefulness - need to run them by my
local Tech Advisor/A&P for an opinion. Coupla sheets of 1/16 A/C grade ply,
some 1/8 ply scrap, tail wheeel (also in need of evaluation), set of Vi
Kaplar's hinges, misc. spruce (but, alas, not the left-hand wing spars).
Set of Cub lift struts, bunch of 4130 tubing & sheet, a few Replicraft
fittings. Rib jig.
Got the whole mess, except the wing panel, down into my basement workshop,
no sweat; the wing is hanging in the enclosed breezeway outside the back
door awaiting an inspiration for a 'plan B'.
As, I said, all-in-all I think I got a pretty good project, but I'm already
thinking about things I want to review & redo to fit my ideas of where I
want to go with the project. Given all the talk on the list about the rib
layout & the fact that I got a copy of the CAD drawing that Robert Haines
drew up, I may even go so far as to make a whole new set of ribs. We'll
see, but capstrip is pretty cheap & I have LOTS of 1/16" ply for gussets!
Oh yeah, the whole deal set me back just a couple hundred past 2K -
couldn't have bought the materials for that!
Cheers!
Kip Gardner (headed back to the basement to make airplane noises)
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Replicraft Aviation. |
I don't know, but I have been trying to contact them too with no success.
They owe me lots of parts that are bought and paid for long ago!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: <Gdascomb(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Replicraft Aviation.
>
> Anyone know the current status of this company? I know they recently
changed
> their name and now the web site seems to be shut down . I tried to confirm
my
> tail hardware order by e-mail...but got no reply.
> George
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/22/02 6:24:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes:
> Actually, I think I got a pretty good project, all in all. It's a long-fuse
> version, which suits me as I plan on using a corvair engine. Bought it from
> Pat Letarte in Cincinnati & got it home here to Canton with the help of a
> member of the Wadsworth,OH EAA chapter who just happened to own a 26'
> enclosed trailer that which he uses to haul around the Ultralights his Co.
> sells. Anyone interested in a UL should check out the Aerolite Co. in
> Millersburg, OH (there, that's my payback to Bob for his help!).
>
> What I got was a nearly completed fuse, 1 set of ribs on 3/4" spars
> (right-hand wing panel) & a second set ready for the left panel, more or
> less. All tail surfaces, ready to go on fuse. Also, a cub-style gear, about
> 2/3 fabricated & wheels of unknown usefulness - need to run them by my
> local Tech Advisor/A&P for an opinion. Coupla sheets of 1/16 A/C grade ply,
> some 1/8 ply scrap, tail wheeel (also in need of evaluation), set of Vi
> Kaplar's hinges, misc. spruce (but, alas, not the left-hand wing spars).
> Set of Cub lift struts, bunch of 4130 tubing & sheet, a few Replicraft
> fittings. Rib jig.
>
> Got the whole mess, except the wing panel, down into my basement workshop,
> no sweat; the wing is hanging in the enclosed breezeway outside the back
> door awaiting an inspiration for a 'plan B'.
>
> As, I said, all-in-all I think I got a pretty good project, but I'm already
> thinking about things I want to review & redo to fit my ideas of where I
> want to go with the project. Given all the talk on the list about the rib
> layout & the fact that I got a copy of the CAD drawing that Robert Haines
> drew up, I may even go so far as to make a whole new set of ribs. We'll
> see, but capstrip is pretty cheap & I have LOTS of 1/16" ply for gussets!
>
> Oh yeah, the whole deal set me back just a couple hundred past 2K -
> couldn't have bought the materials for that!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner (headed back to the basement to make airplane noises)
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
KIp,
If you don't want your ribs, let me know. I need a set for my Scout.
Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
I pulled my two motors down this weekend.
The '65 is missing three cylinders and I thought that it would be the
"spares" motor. This one took a while, but was relatively rust-free. I
made a big mistake though, by trying to split the cases before
separating the connecting rod ends. I ended up with a movable chinese
puzzle and thought I'd never get it all apart. My back hurts a lot more
than when I was 20 too.
The '64 was a different story. Rusted bolts required lots of liquid
wrench and use of the air powered impact wrench quickly became SOP.
On inspection it was obvious that this puppy was pushed to hard. One
push rod bent, one broken and three rod ends were totally worn out. A
couple of the rods had no inserts left at all, ouch! I wonder about the
nimrod dragracer who had to explain it all to dad! ;-)
Lessons learned: a corvair is a different animal when it comes to
engine stands. You cannot support this motor on a stand during crank
and rod installation like an iron block. Of the A&P guys already knew
all about this...
I considered building a crank-mount stand, but instead cut four 4x4's,
two each of unequal length to match the width of upper and lover case
sides, nailed to a 2x6 border to support the engine on it's side and
lofted the whole mess on it's side onto the stand. This allowed me to
reposition the crank, put a couple of case bolts back in and drive the
#@$%
&*! rod bolts to release the rods and pistons. The stand will also
be used on reassembly until the pan goes on, after which the a/c motor
mount will be mounted to a frame and used as a stand for welding
intakes, runup etc.well away from the Piet.
Anyway, the '65 wins, the '64 will be used for cores and trades. Off to
Clarks Parts & machine we go! Still haven't bought Wynne's book as I
got laid off the day job the other day and piano tips at the cathouse
ain't what they used to be.
Did learn though, that Clarks has a good cylinder boring setup that you
should use rather than trusting local yokels. These cylinders are also
apparently too hard for normal honing. I'm the hone-and-ring king, so
this surprised me, but this info comes from several sources, including
Finch. I have seen the broken piston syndrome described by Finch in my
'65 as well, so I'm impressed by the good info there. Clark and others
state that rod bolts should be replaced as well. Count on it, they'll
be pretty beat up when you finally get them out anyway...
Best tip yet, and I've been doing this for years. If you need ANYTHING
done in the way of engine parts or machine work, tell them you are
building an AIRBOAT. It will keep them from hanging up on you and save
lots of money.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
Definitely the deal of the year!
But get the Misses dinner and a movie quick, you're on the radar screen
for sure now...
Larry
Doug413(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 1/22/02 6:24:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
>
>>Actually, I think I got a pretty good project, all in all. It's a long-fuse
>>version, which suits me as I plan on using a corvair engine. Bought it from
>>Pat Letarte in Cincinnati & got it home here to Canton with the help of a
>>member of the Wadsworth,OH EAA chapter who just happened to own a 26'
>>enclosed trailer that which he uses to haul around the Ultralights his Co.
>>sells. Anyone interested in a UL should check out the Aerolite Co. in
>>Millersburg, OH (there, that's my payback to Bob for his help!).
>>
>>What I got was a nearly completed fuse, 1 set of ribs on 3/4" spars
>>(right-hand wing panel) & a second set ready for the left panel, more or
>>less. All tail surfaces, ready to go on fuse. Also, a cub-style gear, about
>>2/3 fabricated & wheels of unknown usefulness - need to run them by my
>>local Tech Advisor/A&P for an opinion. Coupla sheets of 1/16 A/C grade ply,
>>some 1/8 ply scrap, tail wheeel (also in need of evaluation), set of Vi
>>Kaplar's hinges, misc. spruce (but, alas, not the left-hand wing spars).
>>Set of Cub lift struts, bunch of 4130 tubing & sheet, a few Replicraft
>>fittings. Rib jig.
>>
>>Got the whole mess, except the wing panel, down into my basement workshop,
>>no sweat; the wing is hanging in the enclosed breezeway outside the back
>>door awaiting an inspiration for a 'plan B'.
>>
>>As, I said, all-in-all I think I got a pretty good project, but I'm already
>>thinking about things I want to review & redo to fit my ideas of where I
>>want to go with the project. Given all the talk on the list about the rib
>>layout & the fact that I got a copy of the CAD drawing that Robert Haines
>>drew up, I may even go so far as to make a whole new set of ribs. We'll
>>see, but capstrip is pretty cheap & I have LOTS of 1/16" ply for gussets!
>>
>>Oh yeah, the whole deal set me back just a couple hundred past 2K -
>>couldn't have bought the materials for that!
>>
>>Cheers!
>>
>>Kip Gardner (headed back to the basement to make airplane noises)
>>
>>426 Schneider St. SE
>>North Canton, OH 44720
>>(330) 494-1775
>>
>>
>
>KIp,
>
>If you don't want your ribs, let me know. I need a set for my Scout.
>
>Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/22/02 9:24:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< As, I said, all-in-all I think I got a pretty good project, but I'm already
thinking about things I want to review & redo to fit my ideas of where I
want to go with the project. Given all the talk on the list about the rib
layout & the fact that I got a copy of the CAD drawing that Robert Haines
drew up, I may even go so far as to make a whole new set of ribs. We'll
see, but capstrip is pretty cheap & I have LOTS of 1/16" ply for gussets!
Oh yeah, the whole deal set me back just a couple hundred past 2K -
couldn't have bought the materials for that!
>>
Thanks for the quick reply. Am interested in your progress, and hope to be
not far behind you in final completion.
Anyone else on list:
What are the pros and cons of buying a project vs starting from scratch with
new materials ?
I will be on somewhat of a budget, thats one reason I am going to build a
Piet. Isn't the whole objective to get in the air and fly ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
>
>In a message dated 1/22/02 9:24:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes:
> Oh yeah, the whole deal set me back just a couple hundred past 2K -
> couldn't have bought the materials for that!
> >>
>Thanks for the quick reply. Am interested in your progress, and hope to be
>not far behind you in final completion.
>
>Anyone else on list:
>
>What are the pros and cons of buying a project vs starting from scratch with
>new materials ?
>
>I will be on somewhat of a budget, thats one reason I am going to build a
>Piet. Isn't the whole objective to get in the air and fly ?
Dennis,
Just a quick comment - I think there were a couple of compelling reasons
why I chose to go the buying a project route, aside from the fact that the
price was so good.
First, the space I wound up having to devote to the project is limited
(whose isn't?) & this saved me the costs/hassels of building a fuse jig
table & then having to take it all apart to move on to the next step.
Second, it's a great emotional booster to have a project this far along - I
don't have to work up the motivation necessary to overcome the inertia of
getting started. I could have done it, but who knows how much time 'getting
over the hump' would have taken?
On the down side - To some degree, you have to trust that the guy you are
buying from did a good job. There are some things that you simply can't see
by the time a project is this far along & unless he lets you break
something before making a commitment, I know of no absolute way of
determining the integrity of someone else's gluing job. (That 'G' word you
so rudely mentioned).
Also, I will miss the satisfaction of having put every piece of this
machine together myself. And finally, as I said, I'm sure that there will
be some things that I simply decide for one reason or another to redo. So
in a sense, in those areas I've lost the advantage of someone else doing it
first.
All that said, I'm glad I made this choice. As for whether or not I finish
ahead of you, who knows? Getting in the air is a goal, but I look at the
project as a package deal, and I hope to enjoy the work as well. Beside, my
budget will determine the pace to some degree. (Also, I'll need time for
dinner & dancing with the Misses, as Larry mentioned - yeah, I'm on the
screen for sure!).
Doug Bryant - if you want the ribs, sure thing. You can have the jig too if
I go that route. Won't guarantee that I can get the ones already on the
spars off in whole pieces, so I'll send everything & you can tell me what
it's all worth to you, if anything - you may wind up with a half-set of
ribs (or a '1/2 plus pieces' set, or.... you get the idea). I'll let you
know in a couple of weeks what I'm going to do.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner (back up from the basement)
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Hi Kip. Just read Skips message where he thinks the PP had spruce spars in
it. Anyway I have a couple of books here,
one, Aircraft Materials and Processes from 1937.lists spruce compression at
4000 lb and yel poplar at3750. As a
comparison, the forestry table lists spruce comp at 4500. In any case the
poplar is going to be weaker so be
carefull.Also Aircraft Woodwork from 1946( I love used bookstores!) says yp
should not be used as a direct
substitute for spruce. Poplar is a soft hardwood,fir is a hard softwood. I
wonder what ancient genius came up
with these designations? The AW book also has 19 eye opener pages on wood
defects. There are a lot of things
that can happen to a tree before and after felling. Some are not easily
eyeballed. Hope this helps some.
Have fun with the project. Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood
>
> >
> >The publication your looking for is sport aviation(EAA) of sept 1984, "A
> >closer look at some alternatives to
> >sitka spruce in aircraft construction". It covers spruce,west
hemlock,port
> >orford and yellow cedars,the true firs,
> >doug fir,pines,etc. Catagories are Static bending,compression parallel to
> >grain(most important for us),comp.
> >across grain,shear parallel to grain(bolt holding as in tha ends of
> >struts) and tension across grain(splitting,
> >bolt holding). Paragraphs on each wood.
> >I have checked locally for spruce. It will cost me $750+shipping for set
> >of spars only,hemlock is at $500+.
> >I found a source of yellow cedar for $250 one hour from home. The chart
> >shows yellow cedar exeeding all
> >the spruce strengths by 12 to 15 % and the weight is the same also it is
> >more than twice as rot resistant.
> >I discussed this choice with my local inspector and it has been ok'ed. No
> >worry about grain minimum as
> >this stuff grows at more than 30 per inch. Wonderful to work with also.
> >Oh, I'm quoting in Canadian dollars. One US=1.5 Can approx.
>
> Clif,
>
> This yellow cedar sounds quite interesting, does the article have any
> information regrding Yellow Poplar? I'm curious to know if its
> characteristics would make it suitable for spars. I seem to recall at
least
> one Piet that was built by a guy who used a poplar tree that he cut off of
> his own land - think it was in an old BPA newsletter for that matter.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner (getting acquainted with his recently acquired project)
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
> Bumper Sticker of the week:
>
> 'Everyone is entitled to act stupid, but you're abusing the priviledge'
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Fisherman's Piet |
Fisherman Caye wrote:
>Here is my website and photos of fuselage under construction.
>http://members.tripod.com/~speculation/pietenpolplaneconstruction.html
If you haven't taken a look at this site, just do it. This, folks, is what
it's all about. These guys are having WAY too much fun doing this!
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Folks;
I was sitting thinking about Ernie Moreno's Piet, the one that's still for
sale (Franklin powered), long nose, tail heavy. Ernie has 40 lb. of lead
strapped to the engine mount up front, and flies the plane with the header
tank full (flying off the wing tank) to help with balance. So here's the
question (and it may be a repeat from the past): since there are controls in
both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and
placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only? That puts the pilot much closer
to the CG. Besides the issue of it being easier to get in and out of the
rear cockpit, why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of them have
tail heavy issues?
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Replicraft/tail hardware |
George: If you strike out with replicraft, ACS has 4130 in
strips--verious with"s and thickness. Order the proper steel strips and
cut to length with your hacksaw. A little labor involved, but cheaper
than Replicraft. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Kinsella" <windmill602a(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: aft CG problems |
Are these CG problems based on weight and ballance measurements or flight
charicteristics?
>From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: aft CG problems
>Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:07:21
>
>
>
>Folks;
>
>I was sitting thinking about Ernie Moreno's Piet, the one that's still for
>sale (Franklin powered), long nose, tail heavy. Ernie has 40 lb. of lead
>strapped to the engine mount up front, and flies the plane with the header
>tank full (flying off the wing tank) to help with balance. So here's the
>question (and it may be a repeat from the past): since there are controls
>in
>both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and
>placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only? That puts the pilot much closer
>to the CG. Besides the issue of it being easier to get in and out of the
>rear cockpit, why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of them have
>tail heavy issues?
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>Medford, Oregon
>mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mark boynton <marktboynton(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wood in Pietenpol Air Camper |
Fisherman Caye,
Cool pic's. Which one of those gents are you? Whose
Piet is that with the wheel pants?
Mark Boynton
Gilbert, AZ
--- Fisherman Caye wrote:
>
>
> Here is my website and photos of fuselage under
> construction. Story on the wood too! Did not go to
> regular suppliers. They were too expensive.
>
>
http://members.tripod.com/~speculation/pietenpolplaneconstruction.html
>
>
> FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community
> http://www.FindLaw.com
> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!
> http://mail.Justice.com
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
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>
>
>
>
>
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Good questions Oscar,
I would want to do a W&B on paper before I tried it for real.
A picture of Gary and Mehlan's Piet at Brodhead, I have on my desk, looks
like the front pit is right on the CG, sure would look funny with only
someone in the front pit.
There may be an issue with toe breaks, at least in the 1934 fuselage.
Skip
-----Original Message-----
since there are controls in
both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and
placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only?
why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of them have
tail heavy issues?
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Steel supplies |
For steel sheet and tubing I strongly recommend Dillsburg Aeroplane Works. Contact:
Charles Vogelsong
114 Sawmill Rd.
Dillsburg, PA 17019
717 432-4589
No website, no credit cards. Send him a few stamps and he'll send a catalog.
After you are in his computer database an order is placed simply by calling him
and telling him what you want.
He ships the next day and the invoice is sent with the materials.
A very nice way to do business.
Greg Cardinal
>>> lshutks(at)webtv.net 01/23 8:29 AM >>>
George: If you strike out with replicraft, ACS has 4130 in
strips--verious with"s and thickness. Order the proper steel strips and
cut to length with your hacksaw. A little labor involved, but cheaper
than Replicraft. Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
January 04, 2002 - January 23, 2002
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cg