Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cm
March 05, 2002 - March 14, 2002
http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
>
>I'm curious.... the Fisher Celebrity my dad and I are building has
>aluminum control tubes/assemblies. Construction is easy as it either is
>bolted together or riveted. We built the entire assembly in a few hours and
>it's light too. I'd say you could shave about 2 lbs as opposed to 4130.
>
>I havent yet decided if I'll stick to plans or go aluminum. Any opinions?
>
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1 Builder
>www.raptoronline.com
>N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Re: changed the page of plane construction |
Worked that time. -Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com>
Date: 5 Mar 2002 14:31:06 -0800
>
>My airplane photos.
>
> There was something wrong with the page setup I had on Angelfire.com
>
> Anyway, I changed the address to:
>
>http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/retired/pietpage5.html
>
> Let me see if the page comes up now. Going to mail it to myself here for a
test. The address works when you type it in. But didn't work on the link. Hope
I fixed it. Got about 3 photos loaded this morning of construction process
of the Pietenpol airplane.
>
>Ray
>
>
>FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community
>http://www.FindLaw.com
>Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!
>http://mail.Justice.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Re: I found a great lumber yard in Houston |
Jim, I sent it in a previous email. I will have to get the information from home
and send it later. Look through the list, it should be in there as a follow
up. I goofed earlier (in my excitement) and forgot to send the address.
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:21:02 -0600
>
>
>Are you gonna keep it a secret? What's the name of the lumber yard?
>
>
>>
>>I found a lumber yard here in Houston with plenty of spar and mast grade,
>>vertical grain Douglas Fir and Sitka Spruce. Looked beautiful. They will
>>plane it to my specs. Not completely sure of the total cost, but not too
>>bad. Spruce is about $10 a linear foot or so. Also had up to 3mm Birch
>>aircraft grade plywood. It seems to be equivalent to 1/8". Bought some, very
>>pretty stuff. Will that do for gussets.
>>
>>Some places are cheaper but I get to see what I am buying - I like that.
>>Also found a supplier of T-88. Called System Three and they told me right
>>where to go, which happened to be right across the freeway from where I
>>work. Did a test glue-up and waiting to break it in a week of so and look at
>>failure point. It has been cold down here, got down to a whole 27 degrees
>>last night. ;) All-in-all a great day.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
>>MyKitPlane.com
>>EAA 665957
>>gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
>>http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
>>
>>"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
>>
>> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
>>a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: changed the page of plane construction |
what kind of ribs are those Ray. GN-1? they sure don't
look like my piet.
Del
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
Ah, must have misread your earlier post. I thought you were thinking of running
a steel bar through the struts. I was thinking along the same lines as you, just
misread it. I like the aluminium tube because you could make it adjustable
by drilling the whole at different lengths in the bar.
Are the aluminium tubes able to take the stress? I would think so, but am a liberal
arts guy, not an engineer. When I was much younger (in the '70s, my father
was the inspector on the Aries T-250 (Anderson-Greenwood/Bellanca deal) and
we had some of the metal tubing that had been used for the step. Very strong stuff,
I think we still have it around somewhere. Anyway, aluminium seems much
weeker for the purpose of holding the wings up. The wings are just hinged and
the struts support them on the ground. I don't know about in flight, though I
imagine the design of the hinge point imparts much of the load into the center
spar and cabanes, but it seems there would be stresses on them that could be
high in buffeting or turbulent weather. What about negative g's?
Am I just being paranoid because I have a 4.5 year old kid and want him to fly
with me?
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:42:35 -0700
>
>
>Gary,
>
>there would not be a steel bar run through the lift struts. The struts are
>hollow extruded aluminum with flats on the inside which are spaced to accept
>a 1" aluminum .065 square tube. The square tube is inserted only about 4"
>into the strut and bolted. About 1.5" extends out for attachment to the
>aircraft.
>
>The only place someone MIGHT run an aliminum bar all the way through would
>be the cabane struts... which is only about 23" or so.
>
>Weight savings of the aluminum struts over 4130 is quite significant.
>
>4130 large strut material is 1.1lb/ft. Aluminum is .55lb/ft. Thats almost
>half the weight.
>
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1 Builder
>www.raptoronline.com
>N74DV
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
>McNeel, Jr.
>
>
>So how much would running a 1" square steel bar through the strut add to the
>weight? That sounds heavy and sort of defeats the purpose of light weight
>aluminium struts. Sounds like I need to do some math.
>
>-Gary in Houston on a beautiful day.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: control tubes / T6 or 4130 |
From: Gary McNeel, Jr. <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
> Being welder challenged, I thought about this too. I am inclined toward
working with aluminium for the torque tube/stick. Do any of you know of any
other planes out there using aluminium for this? I have seen it used on the
Airdrome Aeroplanes aluminium WWI aircraft. I like the look of the D-VIII
and was considering building it before seeing the Piet.
>
> http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/
>
> -Gary
Gary - I've used 6061-T6 thick wall tube for control systems in three
airplanes. The current one is a "Supercat" - GW is about 650 lb (45HP 1/2
VW engine). I believe that the RV- series airplanes use it as well. Being
welder challenged in that I can't weld aluminum, I use a 4130 control system
on my Bakeng Duce - GW about 1750 lb w/ O-290-D2. Just make sure that you
do it right - no stress risers anywhere.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Holland" <iholland(at)telusplanet.net> |
| Subject: | Flexible carb runner couplings |
I am in the process of doing the final mounting of the carb (Stromberg
upflow) and was wondering if anyone had a source of 1 1/4 inch OD
coupling material . I looked at the neoprene in the local hardware
store that the plumbers use to connect two lines using the hose
clamps. Ideal, but too big a hole. Any thoughts?
-=Ian=-
Where the snow is deep and getting deeper and the temperature is going
to minus 36C tonight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
DJ
I for one, as a GN-1 builder with a set of Pietenpol plans for backup think
that this list serves us well. Been following it since Steve Eldrige started
it from Grant MaClaren's BPA site. Learned lots!
I think my GN-1 is reverting back closer to a Piet.
John Mc
Hey Larry,
What do you suggest the GN-1 builders do?? Start their own list?? Im
building a GN-1 and seems like I always have a question or two. I post it
to this list because both aircraft share amazing similarities. It also
seems like a few guys here have built both Piets and GN-1s. While I agree
that there should not be any my dad can beat up your dad GN-1 is better
type posts, I hope you and other die hard Pieters can also agree that for
all intents and purposes the GN-1 and Piet share enough similarities that we
can both live here together. Ive already learned a couple good tips from
Piet builders.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of LAWRENCE
WILLIAMS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet list down?
I think using the list for it's intended purpose is a terrific idea. I don't download
this sucker each day to find out about South American governments or why
someone thinks a GN-1 is better than a Pietenpol. This is THE PIET list......let's
keep on task or we might collapse into a bunch of
rambling narratives while one lister tries to out-do another. I've seen it happen
to other lists.
Piets Forever-
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Cabane struts and other airplane words from the French |
The question about "What the heck is a cabane strut?'" brings up the fact
that we use a lot of French words in our discussions about our airplanes -
probably because the French were in the vanguard of aviation technology for
a while back when aeroplanes were just getting invented. To answer the
question, a cabane strut is usually the tubing (strut) that connects the
wing to the fuselage on a "parasol" airplane. And yes, "parasol" is also a
French word.
Aileron, fuselage, nacelle, empennage, and pitot are all from the French,
and I suspect that cabane may have had the same heritage.
When wing warping of the Wright brothers did not seem the right way to
control the leveling or turning of the wings, Glenn Curtiss "invented" the
aileron. The very name, however, seems to say the French were there first.
In French, a "fuselage" is a spindle-shaped object that has now come to
mean the "body" of the airplane.
"Nacelle" is French that denotes a small boat, but has come to mean the
shelter for an airplane crew or the enclosure around an engine or its
accessories.
"Empennage" used to mean the feathers on an arrow, but now has also come to
mean the tail feathers of a flying machine.
Incidentally, the pitot tube had its invention in about 1864 when the
Frenchmen were looking for a precise way to measure the flow of
liquids. They wanted to accurately measure the flow in the sewers under
Paris! It is named after the French physicist Henri Pitot (ownray
peetow). "You could look it up."
Now, just where "jury strut" came from . . . . Was it because it was
"jury-rigged" (quickly assembled to fix a problem)? I do know that jury
struts are there for a reason, and not necessarily to spread the stress
between the wing strut and the wing. They are there because the main wing
struts on some aircraft - at some speeds - have a tendency to vibrate
(flutter!) with disastrous results, and the jury strut is a brace against
that vibration getting started.
And, web purists, these are all Pietenpol-related items.
Alon!
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
I too wondered about the strength at first. Then I researched it.
the large aluminum strut material is rated at
ultimate @ 23,268 PSI
yield @ 20,498 PSI
shear @ 14,958 PSI
the large strut has about .7" cross sectional area
Even if you vertically hung three times the entire weight of a max grossed
Piet (say 1200lb x 3G = 3600lb) on only ONE strut you'd only see a force of
about 5100 PSI
and like I said that's if you hung 3 Piets from ONE strut vertically.
The aircraft these struts were designed for have a higher gross than the
Piet and they only use 2 of them rather than 4. If it's strength your
worried about.... no need to.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
McNeel, Jr.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
I don't know about in flight, though I imagine the design of the hinge point
imparts much of the load into the center spar and cabanes, but it seems
there would be stresses on them that could be high in buffeting or turbulent
weather. What about negative g's?
Am I just being paranoid because I have a 4.5 year old kid and want him to
fly with me?
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:42:35 -0700
>
>
>Gary,
>
>there would not be a steel bar run through the lift struts. The struts are
>hollow extruded aluminum with flats on the inside which are spaced to
accept
>a 1" aluminum .065 square tube. The square tube is inserted only about 4"
>into the strut and bolted. About 1.5" extends out for attachment to the
>aircraft.
>
>The only place someone MIGHT run an aliminum bar all the way through would
>be the cabane struts... which is only about 23" or so.
>
>Weight savings of the aluminum struts over 4130 is quite significant.
>
>4130 large strut material is 1.1lb/ft. Aluminum is .55lb/ft. Thats almost
>half the weight.
>
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1 Builder
>www.raptoronline.com
>N74DV
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
>McNeel, Jr.
>
>
>So how much would running a 1" square steel bar through the strut add to
the
>weight? That sounds heavy and sort of defeats the purpose of light weight
>aluminium struts. Sounds like I need to do some math.
>
>-Gary in Houston on a beautiful day.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Cabane struts and other airplane words from the French |
Doc,
Also, if you add jury struts midway along the length of the wing struts to
keep them from bowing out up or down when under a compressive load, then the
strut will be four times stronger in compression in regard to column failure
mode.
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doc
Mosher
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cabane struts and other airplane words from the
French
The question about "What the heck is a cabane strut?'" brings up the fact
that we use a lot of French words in our discussions about our airplanes -
probably because the French were in the vanguard of aviation technology for
a while back when aeroplanes were just getting invented. To answer the
question, a cabane strut is usually the tubing (strut) that connects the
wing to the fuselage on a "parasol" airplane. And yes, "parasol" is also a
French word.
Aileron, fuselage, nacelle, empennage, and pitot are all from the French,
and I suspect that cabane may have had the same heritage.
When wing warping of the Wright brothers did not seem the right way to
control the leveling or turning of the wings, Glenn Curtiss "invented" the
aileron. The very name, however, seems to say the French were there first.
In French, a "fuselage" is a spindle-shaped object that has now come to
mean the "body" of the airplane.
"Nacelle" is French that denotes a small boat, but has come to mean the
shelter for an airplane crew or the enclosure around an engine or its
accessories.
"Empennage" used to mean the feathers on an arrow, but now has also come to
mean the tail feathers of a flying machine.
Incidentally, the pitot tube had its invention in about 1864 when the
Frenchmen were looking for a precise way to measure the flow of
liquids. They wanted to accurately measure the flow in the sewers under
Paris! It is named after the French physicist Henri Pitot (ownray
peetow). "You could look it up."
Now, just where "jury strut" came from . . . . Was it because it was
"jury-rigged" (quickly assembled to fix a problem)? I do know that jury
struts are there for a reason, and not necessarily to spread the stress
between the wing strut and the wing. They are there because the main wing
struts on some aircraft - at some speeds - have a tendency to vibrate
(flutter!) with disastrous results, and the jury strut is a brace against
that vibration getting started.
And, web purists, these are all Pietenpol-related items.
Alon!
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: I found a great lumber yard in Houston |
Gary I saw the follow up. I guess I should read all my mail before
replying. I've been to the Hardwood Lumber Co and I agree they do have a
good selection of lumber for spar material.
>
>Jim, I sent it in a previous email. I will have to get the information
from home and send it later. Look through the list, it should be in there
as a follow up. I goofed earlier (in my excitement) and forgot to send the
address.
>
>-Gary
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
>Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:21:02 -0600
>
>>
>>
>>Are you gonna keep it a secret? What's the name of the lumber yard?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I found a lumber yard here in Houston with plenty of spar and mast grade,
>>>vertical grain Douglas Fir and Sitka Spruce. Looked beautiful. They will
>>>plane it to my specs. Not completely sure of the total cost, but not too
>>>bad. Spruce is about $10 a linear foot or so. Also had up to 3mm Birch
>>>aircraft grade plywood. It seems to be equivalent to 1/8". Bought some,
very
>>>pretty stuff. Will that do for gussets.
>>>
>>>Some places are cheaper but I get to see what I am buying - I like that.
>>>Also found a supplier of T-88. Called System Three and they told me right
>>>where to go, which happened to be right across the freeway from where I
>>>work. Did a test glue-up and waiting to break it in a week of so and
look at
>>>failure point. It has been cold down here, got down to a whole 27 degrees
>>>last night. ;) All-in-all a great day.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
>>>MyKitPlane.com
>>>EAA 665957
>>>gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
>>>http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
>>>
>>>"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
>>>
>>> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
>>>a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his
plane.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Greatest idea since I've had this electronic imbesol.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NormDecou(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Western Aircraft Supplies |
I talked to Mr Peters several months ago. He had sold his business and I
believe the buyer was setting up shop in British Columbia. Unfortunately I
do not have the new owners name or phone number. It may be listed in the
archives. If you get stuck try to call Mr Peters. He may know the status of
the current owner. He was already finished with the business when I talked
to him and he was certainly pleasant and kind enough to answer any questions
that I had for him. I believe I called using the old Western Aircraft phone
number.
I hope this helps.
Norm Decou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
Agreed Corky. My hat's off to them. Our favorite lads are genius!
Long may the List serve, the Piets wave and the Putters flutter....
Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>Greatest idea since I've had this electronic imbesol.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
I put my lower control tube together tonight. Learned a lot, and
remembered a lot too from my last welding experience of about 30 years ago.
First, I cut the 7/8' stock to 40 3/4" length and drilled the hole for
the forward 3/8" stick mounting tube. Using a length of 3/8 tube stuck
in this hole, I used a trysquare level to ensure that both the stock in
the first hole and the drill press at the second were both vertical.
I've also learned something, measure three times, then think about it....
Next, I bored the 3/8 tubes (these are bearings for the stick bolts) by
back boring the raw stock held in a vise with a 1/4" handheld drill.
Good plan as I could drill in longer than the finished part, cut off
the end that hand drilling tends to wallow out and then cut the finished
length off the stock. Unfortunately, the "super alloy" gold colored
drills I was using literally blew up at the first sign of binding while
drilling. Seems that they're hardened or alloyed to take wear but not
hard use. The broken drill ends were ugly too, with twisted metal spike
fractures, be careful about this. Tried to repair them a few times,
(this is what the 35 degree groove in front of your grinder wheel is
for, ask me and I'll show you) but no good. The things are as fragile
as peanut brittle on a cold day.
I went back to carbon steel bits, and things were better. Put it in the
vise, drilled about 2 inches into tube cleaning chips and using oil,
then cut off 1/4" of the end, measured 1 1/4" (this dimension not on
plans, but my opinion) and cut off to form the finished tube. Absolutely
perfect fit for 1/4" AN bolt!
Brazing the two 3/8 tubes into the 7/8 control tube went well as I
remembered how, which surprised me. I forgot however, that rags that
have ever seen or heard of oil smolder for a while and then catch fire.
Holy cow! Pay attention and clean up your act before welding and
brazing. I turned around to find a rag used to reposition the tube going
up in flames and starting to take my favorite miter box up with it!
Larry
More careful with fire in Dallas...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Jannica, Good to hear your ship is coming together over there. That's a
pretty engine too. The only plane I saw on their web site was their
Luscombe. Wonder how many other planes that engine has flown. Also, how long
did it fly them?
They didn't mention a lot of tests results or hours flown. For that kind of
dough, I think I'd like to see on a homebuilt with specs close to the piet.
( Seeing it on a piet would be even better.)
Good luck on your building.
Carl
Please visit my website at
www.megsinet.net/skycarl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jannica Wunge
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress report
Hello Pieters
I have finally received my permission to build an Air Camper from the
Swedish EAA and the document is now behind glass and a frame on my workshop
wall. In other words, I am in business and I am currently working on the
wing ribs.
Last week I collected most of the wood needed for the aeroplane from a small
sawmill. The man who runs the sawmill used to produce balsa sheets for the
model hobby trade but he has more and more turned to saw wood for
homebuilders. He has cut most of the wood I need from Swedish fir for around
700 USD. It is very convenient since he cuts it to the dimensions I need in
inches, ready to use. Otherwise this is a strictly metric country. He is
also familiar with the wood requirements for building aeroplanes so I expect
to be able to use most of it. Of course, in the end, it is up to me to
decide what wood to use and what to discard. But on the other hand, this man
knows more about wood than I could learn in a lifetime.
For a while I was thinking in terms of using a Subaru EA81 engine for the
aeroplane and I was actually on my way to buy an old Subaru car to get it.
But as things turned out I changed my mind and never bought it.
Now my dreams are in the direction of diesel engines instead. I found the
DAIR 100 on the web and I think it would be a great power source for the Air
Camper. Unfortunately, I understand that the company has economical
problems, but lets hope that they come into production. Go on and have a
look at: http://www.dair.co.uk/
Here in Sweden the winter is coming to an end now and the snow is slowly
melting away. The days are becoming longer and spring is around the corner.
Besides the Air Camper I am also working on the annual overhaul of our
Ventus motorglider and I hope to be flying it again around Easter. I have
also started to plan for our summer vacation and maybe we will go to England
to have a look at their ships if they have any gathering around July or
August. Lown slow.
Jannica in Sweden
Hmta MSN Explorer kostnadsfritt p http://explorer.msn.se/intl.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | I found a great lumber yard in Houston |
Jim, I also think there is one located at Mangum and W 43rd. Have you been
there? I'm not sure if there is one, a guy shopping lumber told me about it
while I was looking around Hardwood Lumber Co.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Sury
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:32 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I found a great lumber yard in Houston
>
>
> Gary I saw the follow up. I guess I should read all my mail before
> replying. I've been to the Hardwood Lumber Co and I agree they do have a
> good selection of lumber for spar material.
>
>
>
> >
> >Jim, I sent it in a previous email. I will have to get the information
> from home and send it later. Look through the list, it should be in there
> as a follow up. I goofed earlier (in my excitement) and forgot to send the
> address.
> >
> >-Gary
> >
> >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> >From: Jim Sury <jimsury(at)fbtc.net>
> >Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:21:02 -0600
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Are you gonna keep it a secret? What's the name of the lumber yard?
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>I found a lumber yard here in Houston with plenty of spar and
> mast grade,
> >>>vertical grain Douglas Fir and Sitka Spruce. Looked beautiful.
> They will
> >>>plane it to my specs. Not completely sure of the total cost,
> but not too
> >>>bad. Spruce is about $10 a linear foot or so. Also had up to 3mm Birch
> >>>aircraft grade plywood. It seems to be equivalent to 1/8". Bought some,
> very
> >>>pretty stuff. Will that do for gussets.
> >>>
> >>>Some places are cheaper but I get to see what I am buying - I
> like that.
> >>>Also found a supplier of T-88. Called System Three and they
> told me right
> >>>where to go, which happened to be right across the freeway from where I
> >>>work. Did a test glue-up and waiting to break it in a week of so and
> look at
> >>>failure point. It has been cold down here, got down to a whole
> 27 degrees
> >>>last night. ;) All-in-all a great day.
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
> >>>MyKitPlane.com
> >>>EAA 665957
> >>>gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
> >>>http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
> >>>
> >>>"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
> >>>
> >>> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words,
> in reply to
> >>>a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his
> plane.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
In struts of this type you have "long" and
"short" struts in regard to the compression
factors. An unsupported wing strut is of the
"long" variety. Attaching a jury strut in the
middle brings the long strut a lot closer to
a "short" strut configuration for compression
analysis. we're talking about the "columnar"
strength. Two short struts are considerably
stronger than one long one. In real life there
are always bending factors, no matter how
close your bolt holes are to the center line
they will never be perfect. Also, as Doc has
pointed out, there will be vibration in the air,
which is bending again, only a more severe
problem than a slightly out of alignment bolt.
Jury-nautical term meaning temporary. Clif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | Re: changed the page of plane construction |
Del
Ha! Ha!
Yeah GN-1 I guess? But I don't buy this separation of pure Pietenpol and modified
Pietenpol. If it is built from the plans and you basically have the original
wing, fuselage and monkey around with the engine, wheels and a few design
changes in the cockpit, then I would still call it a Pietenpol. The purists
can go take a hike for me. Mine is a Pietenpol!
The ribs are a little wider. I had all this ripped spruce and I forget now,
but think it is wider by about an 1/8 inch on caps. I was just too lazy to go
rip them again, to get them down to specs. I figured the extra weight would
be made up with me jogging for a week on the trampoline and losing the pounds
instead. Or the engine, or something.
Whatever they came out nice.
Ray
On Tue, 05 March 2002, del magsam wrote:
>
>
> what kind of ribs are those Ray. GN-1? they sure don't
> look like my piet.
> Del
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Cabane struts and other airplane words from the French |
Doc,
Another French word you forgot - canard. This one has a curious history.
Alberto Santos-DuMont was a Brazilian who was living in France in the early
years of the last century. He designed a number of aircraft, but one of his
first successful designs looked every much like a biplane of the WWI era
(except for its tail, which was also biplane). However, this plane moved
backwards! It was a pusher, with the wings aft, just in front of the
propeller, had a long fuselage and the "empennage" was on the very front of
the aeroplane. When the citizens of Paris saw it flying over, they laughed
at it and said it looked like a duck (ever seen a Mallard in flight, with
its wings well aft and its long neck and head way out in front?). The
French word for duck is "canard". Ever since, any plane with its tail in
front, such as a VariEze, is called a canard. Even control surfaces mounted
in front of the wing are called canards. When I was a young engineer just
out of school I worked for General Dynamics on the design of the F-16 and we
played around with one of the YF-16 prototypes adding movable "canards"
attached to the forward part of the engine inlet for added maneuverability.
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More learning |
Techniques on drilling metal forum.
Larry
You use oil, does that work? What I do, after my table kept skidding away from
me, was brace the table against the wall, stick the drill in a punched indentation
on the metal in the vice, then brace my feet and legs against the other
cement wall, and gradually with a lot of shoulder and huffing and puffing,
walk my feet up the wall about three feet pushing very hard. I am horizontal
enough, my dog Tequila, a Golden Sheperd thinks I am playing and starts gamboling
around underneath my straining horizontal body. You have to be careful, because
the drill bits tend to bend a bit, which means you have to balance your
body weight and thrust enough to force penetration but not break the bit. But
I haven't broken a bit yet, though I do get muscle cramps in the calves sometimes!
Ray
On Wed, 06 March 2002, Larry Neal wrote:
>
>
> I put my lower control tube together tonight. Learned a lot, and
> remembered a lot too from my last welding experience of about 30 years ago.
>
> First, I cut the 7/8' stock to 40 3/4" length and drilled the hole for
> the forward 3/8" stick mounting tube. Using a length of 3/8 tube stuck
> in this hole, I used a trysquare level to ensure that both the stock in
> the first hole and the drill press at the second were both vertical.
> I've also learned something, measure three times, then think about it....
>
> Next, I bored the 3/8 tubes (these are bearings for the stick bolts) by
> back boring the raw stock held in a vise with a 1/4" handheld drill.
> Good plan as I could drill in longer than the finished part, cut off
> the end that hand drilling tends to wallow out and then cut the finished
> length off the stock. Unfortunately, the "super alloy" gold colored
> drills I was using literally blew up at the first sign of binding while
> drilling. Seems that they're hardened or alloyed to take wear but not
> hard use. The broken drill ends were ugly too, with twisted metal spike
> fractures, be careful about this. Tried to repair them a few times,
> (this is what the 35 degree groove in front of your grinder wheel is
> for, ask me and I'll show you) but no good. The things are as fragile
> as peanut brittle on a cold day.
>
> I went back to carbon steel bits, and things were better. Put it in the
> vise, drilled about 2 inches into tube cleaning chips and using oil,
> then cut off 1/4" of the end, measured 1 1/4" (this dimension not on
> plans, but my opinion) and cut off to form the finished tube. Absolutely
> perfect fit for 1/4" AN bolt!
>
> Brazing the two 3/8 tubes into the 7/8 control tube went well as I
> remembered how, which surprised me. I forgot however, that rags that
> have ever seen or heard of oil smolder for a while and then catch fire.
> Holy cow! Pay attention and clean up your act before welding and
> brazing. I turned around to find a rag used to reposition the tube going
> up in flames and starting to take my favorite miter box up with it!
>
> Larry
> More careful with fire in Dallas...
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
-----Original Message-----
I too wondered about the strength at first. Then I researched it.
the large aluminum strut material is rated at
ultimate @ 23,268 PSI
yield @ 20,498 PSI
shear @ 14,958 PSI
the large strut has about .7" cross sectional area
Even if you vertically hung three times the entire weight of a max grossed
Piet (say 1200lb x 3G = 3600lb) on only ONE strut you'd only see a force of
about 5100 PSI
and like I said that's if you hung 3 Piets from ONE strut vertically.
The aircraft these struts were designed for have a higher gross than the
Piet and they only use 2 of them rather than 4. If it's strength your
worried about.... no need to.
DJ Vegh
DJ,
Be careful how you figure the stresses and loads on your struts. For one
thing, 3 G's is nothing - you can easily put that much load on your struts
in a steep turn!
Better figure that the struts need to carry at least 5 times the load of the
full gross weight of the plane. And don't forget when you are calculating
cross sectional areas that the strut likely won't fail in the middle, or in
a place where it has its full cross section. It will likely fail around the
rivets that attach it to the rest of the structure. Those riveted
connections are critical, and are the reason for the reinforcing square tube
inside the strut in that area. For rivets to make an effective fastening
system they must be bucked, squeezed or pulled with substantial force to
deform the rivet, filling any gaps between the original hole and the rivet
shank, and pulling the heads tightly against the strut. If you try this
without some reinforcing material inside the strut, you will probably crush
the strut. When you rivet this area, for God's sake don't use "pop"rivets.
They absolutely do not have the strength to hold against the loads this
joint will see. As I've said before on this list, the only thing I would
use "pop" rivets for is a lawn chair for my ex-wife to sit in. Check with
Carlson and see what type of rivets they recommend. Don't use a bolted
connection either, thinking that bolts are stronger than rivets. Bolts are
strong, but a bolted connection cannot be a tight fit like you get with a
properly riveted joint, and then you will have a hard steel bolt wallowing a
hole in the soft aluminum structure. Good structural rivets like Cherry
rivets are better than bolted connections for aluminum structual
applications, unless the joint is specifically designed for a bolted
connection.
Cheers,
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More learning |
Ray, that sounds like dull drill bits to me...
Fisherman Caye wrote:
>
>Techniques on drilling metal forum.
>
>
>Larry
>
> You use oil, does that work?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
Jack
I had planned on using 2 bolts on each end through the struts and square
tube.
I understand your concern about using only 3G's and a reference. But like I
was saying that was only one strut. With all four lift struts and 4 cabane
struts carrying load the numbers are much less. I'd imagine it would take
9-11 G's to fail the struts and let's be honest .... something else will
break long before that.
My point was that the aluminum lift struts are plenty strong for a piet
providing the attach points are well engineered.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
>
>the large aluminum strut material is rated at
>
>ultimate @ 23,268 PSI
>
>yield @ 20,498 PSI
>
>shear @ 14,958 PSI
>
>the large strut has about .7" cross sectional area
>DJ Vegh
>DJ,
>
>a place where it has its full cross section. It will likely fail around the
>rivets that attach it to the rest of the structure. Those riveted
>connections are critical, and are the reason for the reinforcing square tube
>inside the strut in that area. For rivets to make an effective fastening
>system they must be bucked, squeezed or pulled with substantial force to
>deform the rivet, filling any gaps between the original hole and the rivet
>shank, and pulling the heads tightly against the strut. If you try this
>without some reinforcing material inside the strut, you will probably crush
>the strut. When you rivet this area, for God's sake don't use "pop"rivets.
>They absolutely do not have the strength to hold against the loads this
>joint will see. As I've said before on this list, the only thing I would
>use "pop" rivets for is a lawn chair for my ex-wife to sit in. Check with
>Carlson and see what type of rivets they recommend. Don't use a bolted
>connection either, thinking that bolts are stronger than rivets. Bolts are
>strong, but a bolted connection cannot be a tight fit like you get with a
>properly riveted joint, and then you will have a hard steel bolt wallowing a
>hole in the soft aluminum structure. Good structural rivets like Cherry
>rivets are better than bolted connections for aluminum structual
>applications, unless the joint is specifically designed for a bolted
>connection.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jack
Jack, DJ,
First, the disclaimer that I'm no engineer. I understand the logic for
using rivets that Jack laid out. Now, is there some way of augmenting that
structure? I'm thinking along the lines of reinforcing the rivets with some
of that 'extreme epoxy' that Jim bede demonstrated at our EAA chapter
meeting a few weeks ago. Maybe I'm just blowing smoke, but it seems that if
you filled in the area around the joint, it would completely immobilize
things. I suppose you'd have to thouroughly clean the steel tubing, as if
you were applying epoxy primer, but the aluminum wouldn't need any special
prep beyond being clean, dry and scuffed a little.
Comments from the engineerinig experts?
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Just a thought...
Jury struts should not be mounted at the center of the lift strut. They
should be offset a few inches. With them being in the middle there is equal
distance of the strut on either side. Either side of the strut will have a
resonating frequency that is the same as the other. This COULD cause a
condition where the struts begine to vibe at that frequency and get out of
control until it literally shakes itself apart.
Now... that's what the math tells us.... In reality the Piet probably
doesn't get going fast enough to see this condition..... but what the
heck... it takes no extra time to install them offset a bit. Typically they
are offset to the outside of the wing.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of clif
Subject: Pietenpol-List: jury struts-doc
In struts of this type you have "long" and
"short" struts in regard to the compression
factors. An unsupported wing strut is of the
"long" variety. Attaching a jury strut in the
middle brings the long strut a lot closer to
a "short" strut configuration for compression
analysis.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
-----Original Message-----
First, the disclaimer that I'm no engineer. I understand the logic for
using rivets that Jack laid out. Now, is there some way of augmenting that
structure? I'm thinking along the lines of reinforcing the rivets with some
of that 'extreme epoxy' that Jim bede demonstrated at our EAA chapter
meeting a few weeks ago. Maybe I'm just blowing smoke, but it seems that if
you filled in the area around the joint, it would completely immobilize
things. I suppose you'd have to thouroughly clean the steel tubing, as if
you were applying epoxy primer, but the aluminum wouldn't need any special
prep beyond being clean, dry and scuffed a little.
Comments from the engineerinig experts?
Kip Gardner
Kip,
Not that I'm an engineering expert, but I am an engineer and have had a
little experience with adhesives. In my experience, a glue joint between
dissimilar metals (e.g., aluminum and steel) often fails due to thermal
expamsion. The two metals have different coefficients of expansion, so any
large changes in temperature cause a high shear load at the joint. The
metals are going to expand or contract at their expected amounts. Any
difference between their new lengths must be accomodated by the adhesive, or
the joint will fail. I think DJ is talking about slipping an aluminum
square tube inside his strut, not a steel tube. In that case, applying
Bede's miracle epoxy would probably be a good thing.
One thing to remember when substituting aluminum for steel in structures is
that steel has much better resistance to fatigue than aluminum. There is a
factor in materials science called "endurance limit", which is a stress
level below which no fatigue will occur, no matter how many vibration cycles
the piece sees in service. For steel, the endurance limit is usually less
than half the yield strength of the material, but aluminum has no endurance
limit - which means that given enough time and enough vibration cycles,
aluminum will eventually develop fatigue cracks. Don't get me wrong here -
aluminum is a great material for aircraft construction, but you have to
understand its characteristics and design accordingly. If you use aluminum
for lift struts, be sure you use jury struts and don't mount the jury struts
in the center of the lift strut - mount them enough off-center that they
will tend to break up any harmonic vibration of the strut.
Another thing to consider when substituting aluminum for steel is that, all
other factors being equal, aluminum is only about 1/3 as stiff as steel,
which means that an aluminum part will deflect under load roughly 3 times as
much as a steel member of the same size and shape. Just things to consider.
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
Looking at the Sky-tek specs. I would be willing to bet that the smaller
2.44" aluminum struts would be way more than up to the task of handling the
loads in a Piet wing and would be closer to the
2 3/8" X 1" size called for in the plans, with jury struts of course.
Plus they are lighter and down right cheap. Heck there's a Piet down here in
Fl. that's been flying since the sixties with wood/steel laminated struts.
I'm no engineer so what do you guys think about using four of the smaller
struts. Don't want to start anything but the Sky-tek
4-A extruded aluminum spars look real interesting too at 45,000 psi tensile
and 9 pounds. Ed G.
>From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:29:18 -0700
>
>
>Jack
>
>I had planned on using 2 bolts on each end through the struts and square
>tube.
>
>I understand your concern about using only 3G's and a reference. But like
>I
>was saying that was only one strut. With all four lift struts and 4 cabane
>struts carrying load the numbers are much less. I'd imagine it would take
>9-11 G's to fail the struts and let's be honest .... something else will
>break long before that.
>
>My point was that the aluminum lift struts are plenty strong for a piet
>providing the attach points are well engineered.
>
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1 Builder
>www.raptoronline.com
>N74DV
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
DJ, Group----I've noticed that at certain power settings that my 1/8" X
cables that go between
the lift struts vibrate. I simply adjust power till the blur goes
away. A fellow pilot, engineer,
flight instructor told me to hang a small lead fishing sinker to the X
portion of each set of wing
braces and this would go away. Might try that this spring.
As a side note, (and this is just my view) just because this is called the
Pietenpol discussion group does not mean that GN-1 builders, owners, and
enthusiasts are not welcome. There are some fine GN-1 examples flying out
there and for one I know of, Jim Sury in Texas is one who helped me along
with my questions on my Piet and vice versa. I don't care if you use a
Ford, a Corvair, a 3 pce wing, a plans-built, balloon tires, or a
tail-skid, or build a GN-1 not to plans,
there is no room in my mind for purist mentality on the list. Thank God
Bernie tried a ton of various engines, wing shapes, landing gear types,
and gosh.......he even had a tailwheel and a radio in his last
Pietenpol. Imagine that.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
I looked at my carpet tack strip cutter last night, and mine has two blades,
one each on the top and bottom jaw not like Charlie's' one blade/flat anvil.
The blades were in very poor shape, it seemed to "crush" the top and bottom
edge a bit before cutting thru. New blades could make a big difference, but
it was apparent it could cut a lot of rib material quicker than hand sawing,
or on a table saw or band saw. The blades were screwed tight to the jaws,
and were much thicker than a single edge razor blade. I won't be buying new
blades to check, as all my rib material is cut. It was made buy a company
called 'Roberts'. I think Charlie's cutter is a great idea and sound like
a pretty good deal for $5.
Kent Hallsten
-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Hallsten [mailto:KHallsten(at)governair.com]
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutting gussets
This sounds like a tool I have in my carpet laying toolbox. It is used to
cut the spiked wood strips that get nailed around the edge of a room. I
used mine for a year or two, cutting 1/4" plywood strips, and the occasional
tack. They blade is dinged, but I'll try it tonight and get back to
everyone.
At the Oshkosh EAA Chapter meeting last night, Charlie Becker showed us a
pair of pliers-looking cutters that do the job of cutting gussets and even
capstrips neat and clean and with one squeeze of the handles.
Charlie got them at the Oskosh Menard store (sort of a Wisconsin style
hardware/lumberyard place) and they cost less than $5. They look like an
oversize pair of pliers, but have a replaceable single-edge razor blade
that fastens tightly to one jaw (three little screws). The other jaw is a
flat anvil. He has cut a lot of wood with his and has yet to replace the
first razor blade.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cutting gussets |
Guys, try a paper cutter.
Cheap, cuts straight, longer cut, smoother edge.
You can chomp up a sheet of 1/16th ply in a couple minutes and then use
the paper cutter at home forever.
Kent Hallsten wrote:
>
>I looked at my carpet tack strip cutter last night, and mine has two blades,
>one each on the top and bottom jaw not like Charlie's' one blade/flat anvil.
>The blades were in very poor shape, it seemed to "crush" the top and bottom
>edge a bit before cutting thru. New blades could make a big difference, but
>it was apparent it could cut a lot of rib material quicker than hand sawing,
>or on a table saw or band saw. The blades were screwed tight to the jaws,
>and were much thicker than a single edge razor blade. I won't be buying new
>blades to check, as all my rib material is cut. It was made buy a company
>called 'Roberts'. I think Charlie's cutter is a great idea and sound like
>a pretty good deal for $5.
>
>Kent Hallsten
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kent Hallsten [mailto:KHallsten(at)governair.com]
>To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutting gussets
>
>
>
>
>This sounds like a tool I have in my carpet laying toolbox. It is used to
>cut the spiked wood strips that get nailed around the edge of a room. I
>used mine for a year or two, cutting 1/4" plywood strips, and the occasional
>tack. They blade is dinged, but I'll try it tonight and get back to
>everyone.
>
>
>At the Oshkosh EAA Chapter meeting last night, Charlie Becker showed us a
>pair of pliers-looking cutters that do the job of cutting gussets and even
>capstrips neat and clean and with one squeeze of the handles.
>
>Charlie got them at the Oskosh Menard store (sort of a Wisconsin style
>hardware/lumberyard place) and they cost less than $5. They look like an
>oversize pair of pliers, but have a replaceable single-edge razor blade
>that fastens tightly to one jaw (three little screws). The other jaw is a
>flat anvil. He has cut a lot of wood with his and has yet to replace the
>first razor blade.
>
>Doc Mosher
>Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gdascomb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Western Aircraft Supplies |
Western Aircraft is still in business but with a new owner and location. The
owner is Marc Septav. P.O. Box 79 , Slocan, BC Canada, V0G 2C0 Phone #
250-355-0003, Fax 250-355-0004. E-mail: aircraft(at)telus.net.
I will quote his ad I got with my plans from Don Pietenpol:
" We specialize in supplying top quality kits for the Pietenpol Aircamper and
Sky Scout. Competitive prices with quick turnaround from our specially
selected inventory"
Give him a call for a quote.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: aluminum lift/jury struts |
I'm not real current on my physics, but having four struts would not divide
the stress into fourths, each strut would "feel" the entire load. Standard
category aircraft are stressed to 3.8G and utility category are stressed to
4.4G. I have seen end fittings on Luscombe struts (aluminum struts for the
metal wings) that are attached by bolts, but a lot more than two, more like
six.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Power planers for woodworking |
I know from a discussion in December that good carbide saw blades on the
tablesaw will leave a good finish for glue, but is it necessary to get a
glass smooth surface that a power planer gives? Would a hand block plane
put on a good glue surface after table sawing?
One of my blades is 200 tooth blade for the table saw, and it's certainly
not a ripping blade, more for cabinetry type work I guess. I'm wondering if
that blade is good for ripping longerons and spar material. I have a 40 or
50 tooth combo carbide blade too.
I remember Del M. and Chris B. have planers, and like them, but how to get a
good surface for gluing laminations if you don't have one?
What say you, Doug Bryant? You have used lumberyard wood exclusively,
haven't you? What do you use to get a good glue surface after ripping those
2 x 4's?
For those that have planers , have you planed wood with T-88 glue? Someone
in a post from 1997 mentioned T-88 would hurt the blades.
Kent Hallsten, the worry-wort
Oklahoma City
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
You guys diddling with the lift struts, don't forget here is one lurker about a
month away from needing them too. So I am reading and listening. Solve it fellas,
enquiring minds want to know?
Give prices too! For example I was going to order two pieces of 6 ft 4130 strap
from Aircraft Spruce. They cost about $10 for the two and $20 for UPS. Still
thinking about that! But I am getting closer to needing the 4130 strap,
so might have to bite the bullet. But I would like to know what other 4130 pieces
I have to order and put it in one package. Haven't got there yet. Anybody
been there and done that and can suggest the pieces needed from A & S?
Ray
On Wed, 06 March 2002, "Ed Grentzer" wrote:
>
>
>
> Looking at the Sky-tek specs. I would be willing to bet that the smaller
> 2.44" aluminum struts would be way more than up to the task of handling the
> loads in a Piet wing and would be closer to the
> 2 3/8" X 1" size called for in the plans, with jury struts of course.
> Plus they are lighter and down right cheap. Heck there's a Piet down here in
> Fl. that's been flying since the sixties with wood/steel laminated struts.
> I'm no engineer so what do you guys think about using four of the smaller
> struts. Don't want to start anything but the Sky-tek
> 4-A extruded aluminum spars look real interesting too at 45,000 psi tensile
> and 9 pounds. Ed G.
>
> >From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
> >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:29:18 -0700
> >
> >
> >Jack
> >
> >I had planned on using 2 bolts on each end through the struts and square
> >tube.
> >
> >I understand your concern about using only 3G's and a reference. But like
> >I
> >was saying that was only one strut. With all four lift struts and 4 cabane
> >struts carrying load the numbers are much less. I'd imagine it would take
> >9-11 G's to fail the struts and let's be honest .... something else will
> >break long before that.
> >
> >My point was that the aluminum lift struts are plenty strong for a piet
> >providing the attach points are well engineered.
> >
> >DJ Vegh
> >Mesa, AZ
> >GN-1 Builder
> >www.raptoronline.com
> >N74DV
> >
> >
>
>
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
HARMONIC VIBRATION LIFT STRUTS
Ahhhhh! THAT explains the harmonic talk and vibrations being visible. It is in
the middle of the strut, like a standing wave in a sound pipe. I thought from
earlier talk, you simply angled the jury struts ( I think these are the thin
rod, or pipe, part way down the strut and wing overhead) outward at an angle.
But that was not meant at all? You mean that the space along the lifting/compression
strut should be divided out of phase with the length? Ahhhhh! Now
I get it! Don't fasten the intermediary struts at the half way point, or you
will get two minor half waves.
http://members.tripod.com/~speculation/sound.html
------ " aluminum will eventually develop fatigue cracks. Don't get me wrong
here -
aluminum is a great material for aircraft construction, but you have
to
understand its characteristics and design accordingly. If you use
aluminum
for lift struts, be sure you use jury struts and don't mount the jury
struts
in the center of the lift strut - mount them enough off-center that
they
will tend to break up any harmonic vibration of the strut.
Another thing to consider when substituting aluminum for steel is
that, all
other factors being equal, aluminum is only about 1/3 as stiff as
steel,
which means that an aluminum part will deflect under load roughly
3 times as
much as a steel member of the same size and shape. Just things to
consider "------
The cloud cover is down to the ground around Opa Locka in Miami-Dade County today.
Drizzle rain. Unlike you cold northerners, you can still work in your
heated garages and workshops. Me, my stuff is outside and wet. But I just finished
reading "Auto Engines for Experimental Aircraft" by Richard Finch. Guess
I will have to order the book and buy it, when I return this one to the library
Inter-Library Loan reference section. Has lots of formulas and photos in
there. I maybe can jury rig a simple primitive working reduction gear without
cast aluminum bell housings.
The guy makes one wonder why anybody is using certificated Continental, Lycombing,
or Franklin engines anymore? He speaks highly of the Corvair. I'm still
pondering engine choice and price. Periodically I lift up the e-mail computer
printout from Jon & Laurel Crawford and Kirk & Laura Huizenga on Corvair engines
and briefly glance through it. Intrigued by the Mazda conversion also,
though I think the reduction gear is beyond my skills. Can't find Tracy Crook
e-mail address anywhere so far. People who use phones, instead of e-mail, Instant
Messenger, microphone and video cam, annoy me; I got rid of AT& T long distance
as it was costing $20 a month in fees and taxes even if I did not use
the service. I like user taxes, not mandatory privilege taxes. Use pre-paid
phone cards exclusively now a third the price for phone long distance and the
internet is FREE. ( But I digress- a function of old age) The auto conversion
book makes one weep and cry in frustration. There are so many things to learn
in life. I might have been a published expert once in Western Caribbean Sea
tropical marine life 35 years ago, but now I'm a has been, and reading an expert
on auto engines for airplanes, leaves me feeling like an idiot. If I try
to learn all the relevant auto conversion stuff, I will never get to fly my Pietenpol
at my age. Yet buying ready made conversions is financially out of the
question. Time to look for an old Corvair engine seems like, soon. Maybe
by the time Spring arrives up north, so I can go find a bargain in the right year?
( I think it is the 1965 to 1969 versions ) Spring means mud, rain, sleet,
snow, sunshine, buds on trees up there and generally be a lousy time of the
year, wet, cold and messy. Why anybody would live in those conditions is beyond
me? Whoops! I digress again! Time for a mint julip as somebody said? (
whatever that is?)
Ray
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aluminum lift/jury struts |
Still say the best kept secret in any older "grass field" airport, that has
any kind of a hanger, you'll find old struts that had to be changed due to
AD's in the past. Friend of mine in an airport 16 mi north of me, clued me
in. People who replaced these struts just didn't throw the old ones out.
lots were from Cub's, that were kind of large, But MORE were from others and
they matched the plans real close. You wind up cutting about a foot off
each end to get the right length, and by doing that the inside can be
inspected. All four of mine still had that oil inside. Only damage was
slight surface pitting on the outside, which my AP inspected and said were
fine.
Check it out, I'm sure you'll hit paydirt.
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
>
> I just placed my order for aluminumn streamlined lift struts from Carlson
> Aircraft. I also ordered some of thier streamline jury strut material.
> For an extra $18.50 they also sent a kit to install the jury struts. The
kit
> comes with terminating ends and strap material. best part is the entire
> bill came to $222.50 plus shipping! try that with 4130 streamline!
>
> I had them cut my struts at 100" that gives me 26" of fall-off. I'm
> considering using the fall-off as cabane struts. The person at Carlson
> said if I was in any doubt as to strength I could stick a 1" square piece
> all the way through. I like the idea. Have any others out there used
the
> aluminum for cabane struts??
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1 Builder
> www.raptoronline.com
> N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Power planers for woodworking |
Its not so much the finish that gives you a good glue
joint, its the straightness. I glue mine right off the
saw, Is the 200 tooth blade carbide? my guess is that
its not. I did everything with a 60 tooth blade. you
can rip and crosscut with that. a block plane will
screw you up big time. a planer is for the purpose of
sizing your stock, you can keep tolerance of + or-
.005. and this is the secret in good joints and not
having to custom fit each joint, shaving several
hundred hours off from your project, if you want to
fly that is. if you just want to build, then grab the
block plane and go to work. that will keep you busy
for years.:)
T88 won't bother carbide. I cut everything except
sheetrock screws.
Del
--- Kent Hallsten wrote:
>
>
> I know from a discussion in December that good
> carbide saw blades on the
> tablesaw will leave a good finish for glue, but is
> it necessary to get a
> glass smooth surface that a power planer gives?
> Would a hand block plane
> put on a good glue surface after table sawing?
>
> One of my blades is 200 tooth blade for the table
> saw, and it's certainly
> not a ripping blade, more for cabinetry type work I
> guess. I'm wondering if
> that blade is good for ripping longerons and spar
> material. I have a 40 or
> 50 tooth combo carbide blade too.
>
> I remember Del M. and Chris B. have planers, and
> like them, but how to get a
> good surface for gluing laminations if you don't
> have one?
>
> What say you, Doug Bryant? You have used lumberyard
> wood exclusively,
> haven't you? What do you use to get a good glue
> surface after ripping those
> 2 x 4's?
>
> For those that have planers , have you planed wood
> with T-88 glue? Someone
> in a post from 1997 mentioned T-88 would hurt the
> blades.
>
> Kent Hallsten, the worry-wort
> Oklahoma City
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
I'm not real current on my physics, but having four
struts would not
divide
the stress into fourths, each strut would "feel" the
entire load.
How come when I lift a load with 3 other guys, I don't
feel the entire load?
Del
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
Look at the plans, Ray. It's all listed there. You'll need fittings to
attach the wings to the centersection, the centersection to the cabane
struts, for the drag wires and anti-drag wires in the wings, a whole
boatload of sheet steel for the control horns, the aileron horn on the
torque tube, all the little fittings for the control system, all the landing
gear fittings, the engine mount, etc. There is an awful lot of steel in a
wooden airplane. If you wanted to build a Pietenpol to avoid welding, you
would have done better to build a Sonex or an RV-7. But welding is fun. I
found making all the fittings to be one of the more satisfying parts of the
whole process. It takes a little money, but the end result is worth it.
Today I just bought about $20 worth of steel angle iron just to be used
once, in making a jig for my engine mount. It will be of no use when I'm
through welding the mount, because I made my fuselage an inch wider than
normal, so I doubt any other Piet builder can use it. I'll have nearly as
much money invested in the jig as I will have in materials in the engine
mount itself, but that's OK because it is the only way to weld up a mount
with sufficient accuracy. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fisherman
Caye
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
You guys diddling with the lift struts, don't forget here is one lurker
about a month away from needing them too. So I am reading and listening.
Solve it fellas, enquiring minds want to know?
Give prices too! For example I was going to order two pieces of 6 ft 4130
strap from Aircraft Spruce. They cost about $10 for the two and $20 for
UPS. Still thinking about that! But I am getting closer to needing the
4130 strap, so might have to bite the bullet. But I would like to know what
other 4130 pieces I have to order and put it in one package. Haven't got
there yet. Anybody been there and done that and can suggest the pieces
needed from A & S?
Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
Ray, 4130 is available locally here in Houston, at least after an initial call
to the supplier. We need to talk a bit more for me to know exactly what they have.
Probably somewhere near you too, and cheaper. Get the phone book out and
look up metal fabrication or something like that.
-Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Corvair was Ray talking auto-engines |
Go here and look about. William is a Corvair evangelist. Also, think about buying
his conversion booklet.
http://www.flycorvair.com/
[snip]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
The weight is divided among the cabane and lift struts... albeit not
equally. One strut will not "feel" the entire load. The aluminum struts are
plenty strong. A Cessna 150 has only two aluminum struts which are similar
in strength to the large extruded ones form Carlson . A Piet has 4 stuts.
If you ask me... in a high G situation you'll snap a spar or your back LONG
before you fail an aluminum strut.
As for amount of attatch bolts.. the way I se it is the point is not how
many but how much surface area you can get. two .5" bolts would be about as
strong as four .25" bolts. it's surface area not quantity
DJ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
I'm not real current on my physics, but having four struts would not divide
the stress into fourths, each strut would "feel" the entire load. Standard
category aircraft are stressed to 3.8G and utility category are stressed to
4.4G. I have seen end fittings on Luscombe struts (aluminum struts for the
metal wings) that are attached by bolts, but a lot more than two, more like
six.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More learning |
Geez, guys! A good drill press can be had from Sears, Home Depot, or
whatever pretty cheaply. Use good quality bits, and a bit of lite oil,
moderate pressure. I can just picture Ray straining against his walls!!!
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com>
> Techniques on drilling metal forum.
> You use oil, does that work? What I do, after my table kept skidding
away from me, was brace the table against the wall, stick the drill in a
punched indentation on the metal in the vice, then brace my feet and legs
against the other cement wall, and gradually with a lot of shoulder and
huffing and puffing, walk my feet up the wall about three feet pushing very
hard. I am horizontal enough, my dog Tequila, a Golden Sheperd thinks I am
playing and starts gamboling around underneath my straining horizontal body.
You have to be careful, because the drill bits tend to bend a bit, which
means you have to balance your body weight and thrust enough to force
penetration but not break the bit. But I haven't broken a bit yet, though I
do get muscle cramps in the calves sometimes!
>
> Ray
> On Wed, 06 March 2002, Larry Neal wrote:
> I put my lower control tube together tonight. Learned a lot, and
> > remembered a lot too from my last welding experience of about 30 years
ago.
> >
> > First, I cut the 7/8' stock to 40 3/4" length and drilled the hole for
> > the forward 3/8" stick mounting tube. Using a length of 3/8 tube stuck
> > in this hole, I used a trysquare level to ensure that both the stock in
> > the first hole and the drill press at the second were both vertical.
> > I've also learned something, measure three times, then think about
it....
> >
> > Next, I bored the 3/8 tubes (these are bearings for the stick bolts) by
> > back boring the raw stock held in a vise with a 1/4" handheld drill.
> > Good plan as I could drill in longer than the finished part, cut off
> > the end that hand drilling tends to wallow out and then cut the finished
> > length off the stock. Unfortunately, the "super alloy" gold colored
> > drills I was using literally blew up at the first sign of binding while
> > drilling. Seems that they're hardened or alloyed to take wear but not
> > hard use. The broken drill ends were ugly too, with twisted metal spike
> > fractures, be careful about this. Tried to repair them a few times,
> > (this is what the 35 degree groove in front of your grinder wheel is
> > for, ask me and I'll show you) but no good. The things are as fragile
> > as peanut brittle on a cold day.
> >
> > I went back to carbon steel bits, and things were better. Put it in the
> > vise, drilled about 2 inches into tube cleaning chips and using oil,
> > then cut off 1/4" of the end, measured 1 1/4" (this dimension not on
> > plans, but my opinion) and cut off to form the finished tube. Absolutely
> > perfect fit for 1/4" AN bolt!
> >
> > Brazing the two 3/8 tubes into the 7/8 control tube went well as I
> > remembered how, which surprised me. I forgot however, that rags that
> > have ever seen or heard of oil smolder for a while and then catch fire.
> > Holy cow! Pay attention and clean up your act before welding and
> > brazing. I turned around to find a rag used to reposition the tube going
> > up in flames and starting to take my favorite miter box up with it!
> >
> > Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: aluminum lift/jury struts |
Not to start a long- unnecessary discussion, but I am right on this. If you
suspend a 1000 lb weight from one cable that branches into two with a
spreader bar at the bottom, each of the side cables will support the full
1000 lbs. I do not necessarily disagree with your conclusions, only your
reasoning. (except the part about using 2 1/2" bolts, even if you could
find them, instead of more 1/4" bolts)
----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Vegh <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
>
> The weight is divided among the cabane and lift struts... albeit not
> equally. One strut will not "feel" the entire load. The aluminum struts
are
> plenty strong. A Cessna 150 has only two aluminum struts which are
similar
> in strength to the large extruded ones form Carlson . A Piet has 4 stuts.
>
> If you ask me... in a high G situation you'll snap a spar or your back
LONG
> before you fail an aluminum strut.
>
> As for amount of attatch bolts.. the way I se it is the point is not how
> many but how much surface area you can get. two .5" bolts would be about
as
> strong as four .25" bolts. it's surface area not quantity
>
> DJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
> Rambo
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
>
>
> I'm not real current on my physics, but having four struts would not
divide
> the stress into fourths, each strut would "feel" the entire load.
Standard
> category aircraft are stressed to 3.8G and utility category are stressed
to
> 4.4G. I have seen end fittings on Luscombe struts (aluminum struts for
the
> metal wings) that are attached by bolts, but a lot more than two, more
like
> six.
>
> Gene
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pictures finally posted |
I now have soon pictures posted.
Check them out at
http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
Kirk
--
Corvair & Aircamper Pictures
http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | aluminum lift/jury struts |
"even if I could find 1/2" bolts"?? whats an AN-8 ?? AN-8's are readily
available. I'm not going to use AN-8's... I'll probably use 2 or 3 AN-6
bolts... I was only saying that as an example.
and even if we were to assume that each of the struts would see the entire
weight of a max grossed piet (which it wouldn't) in a hypothetical 9G
situation (10,800lbs) that's still only about 15,000 PSI on the strut.
Assuming the attach points are well built, you'll NEVER see a failure of an
aluminum strut under normal flying conditions. As for fatigue... if I
have to replace an aluminum strut after 2000 hrs then so be it... It's not
cost prohibitive.
I'm not trying to drag this thread on... My original point was that for
those who are concerned about strength of aluminum struts, there's no need
to be worried. For those of you who remain paranoid... then fine use 4130
struts :-)
all the mumbo jumbo about cables, weights, and bolts is irrelevant. The
aluminum struts are up to the task. period.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
Not to start a long- unnecessary discussion, but I am right on this. If you
suspend a 1000 lb weight from one cable that branches into two with a
spreader bar at the bottom, each of the side cables will support the full
1000 lbs. I do not necessarily disagree with your conclusions, only your
reasoning. (except the part about using 2 1/2" bolts, even if you could
find them, instead of more 1/4" bolts)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Holland" <iholland(at)telusplanet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More learning |
Hey Guys, with the plane almost built, I have broken only one bit. Use
a drill press and drill small hole first then bring it up to size in
stages . For alignment of some of the holes you will need a press.
I only use the Vanadium (gold) bits. They cut cleaner, last longer and
don't appear to need oil.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Pictures finally posted |
great pictures... I like the paint scheme!
DJ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kirk &
Laura Huizenga
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pictures finally posted
<kirkh@unique-software.com>
I now have soon pictures posted.
Check them out at
http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
Kirk
--
Corvair & Aircamper Pictures
http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pictures finally posted |
>
>great pictures... I like the paint scheme!
>
>DJ
>
Unfortunately that is all gone. That was the scheme when I bought the
project. All fabric has been torn off for inspection and repair. The
pictures are somewhat sequential -- since the plane was unregistered
and in unknown condition, everything has been stripped down to the
bones.
Some rot on one aileron, some broken rib cap strips, rot on the TE
of the center section, broken gear...
I'm still happy with paying only $1000 for the whole lump of parts.
Engine is being rebuilt, straight axle motorcycle wheel gear, new
fitting, new panel, cut-out center wing, new fabric/paint.... all
waiting to be tackled
One day at a time I guess - I'm having fun with the process
Kirk
--
Corvair & Aircamper Pictures
http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Pictures finally posted |
Looking great! And the airplane pics look good too. Congrats on the little
one, lovely family. I take it you have buy-in from the family. That is
essential in these types of projects.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kirk &
> Laura Huizenga
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:47 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pictures finally posted
>
>
> <kirkh@unique-software.com>
>
> I now have soon pictures posted.
>
> Check them out at
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
>
> Kirk
> --
> Corvair & Aircamper Pictures
> http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | OT: Great Waldo Pepper DVD |
Won an Amazon auction and got the The Great Waldo Pepper DVD. Not available
much anymore. Took me awhile to find one in mint condition. Just watched the
end dogfight scene. Man, they did some wonderful cinematagraphy. Okay,
finish the Piet and find full-scale Sopwith plans. I am going to be soooo
busy.
Regards,
Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
MyKitPlane.com
EAA 665957
gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Tailwheel springs and harmonics |
While you are thinking about making sure that your main wing struts do not
get into harmonics (they reportedly hum "Nearer My God to Thee" just before
parting company with the airplane), which is the reason you put a jury
strut offset from the center of the strut, think for a moment about your
tailwheel springs.
Years ago we used to put a pair of matched tailwheel steering springs on
each cable that went to the tailwheel steering arms. Made good
sense. Often, the steering spring links were actually rubber shock
cords. After all, the foot power on each rudder pedal which was also
transmitted to the tailwheel steering arms would be equal, wouldn't it?
Well, if you have flown these taildraggers with the "equal" springs on each
tailwheel steering arm, you know that at times you get a real buzz from the
tailwheel oscillating. In fact, it buzzes from side to side so fast that
it is a blur, and creates a problem for the pilot, who is trying to figure
out just what he did wrong on that landing. After all, he can't see the
tailwheel turning from left to right and back again at supersonic speed,
but he feels something going on. What in the world could that be?
Well, a few years ago ( few years to an old fart might be a decade or two),
the market started shipping mismatched tailwheel steering springs. If you
ordered a pair of new ones, the darned vendor shipped a short one and a
long one - obviously your order had been screwed up! Turns out that
eventually we all learned that the two dissimilar springs were there for a
reason. The spring assemblies were the same total length (with the
attaching cables, etc.) but the springs were a different length! As the
Wicks catalog (page 166) says "a high and low frequency spring is used to
upset the natural frequency of the tailwheel. The lighter spring is used
on the left side."
So when you get to that point on your Piet, and the vendor ships two
springs that don't seem to match, they are not supposed to!
Boy, this Pietenpol stuff really is an educational experience.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ric Ryburn" <ric(at)srclink.net> |
| Subject: | OT: Great Waldo Pepper DVD |
I almost hate to say this... but I recently found the DVD at Wal-Mart for
9.99.
:)
Ric
>
> Won an Amazon auction and got the The Great Waldo Pepper DVD.
> Not available
> much anymore. Took me awhile to find one in mint condition.
> Just watched the
> end dogfight scene. Man, they did some wonderful cinematagraphy. Okay,
> finish the Piet and find full-scale Sopwith plans. I am going
> to be soooo
> busy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
> MyKitPlane.com
> EAA 665957
> gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Kip, the cedar would make nice stringers or
anything else that needs to be light.
It's one of the most rot resistant woods and
would make a good sauna,pool or picnic table.
As would the redwood although I think it is
a little heavier.
Just because I live where all this stuff grows
doesn't mean it's that easily available to me.
Almost all the production goes to Japan so
they can send it back as puzzles.
A friend used to work in the computer div.
of an international logging and milling company
based here. He told me these woods are sold
considerably cheaper in New York than we
paid at home. The wonders of international
marketing. Clif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aluminum lift/jury struts |
Actually, the way I interpret your description, the answer is a little
more complicated..
The tension in each of the two branch cables in your description depends
on the angle of the branching. If the 1000 lb load is supported in the
middle of the spreader bar, the tension in each branch cable equals 1/2
the main cable's tension (1000 lb + tare) divided by the cosine of the
angle of the branch from vertical. If the angle is 30 degrees, the
cosine is about 0.87, so the tension in each branch cable is 500 Lb
divided by .87 or about 580 Lb. As that angle gets greater, meaning the
branch cables get closer to horizontal, the cosine gets smaller so the
tension gets greater. As the branch angle nears 90 degrees, the cosine
gets near zero so the tension goes towards infinity which, of course, it
can't reach without breaking.
By the same token, the tension in a Piet strut can be calculated as the
vertical component of the load at the upper attach point divided by the
cosine of the strut's angle from the vertical axis of the airplane. The
tension is ALWAYS greater than the part of the lift load supported by
that strut.
Mike
Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>Not to start a long- unnecessary discussion, but I am right on this. If you
>suspend a 1000 lb weight from one cable that branches into two with a
>spreader bar at the bottom, each of the side cables will support the full
>1000 lbs. I do not necessarily disagree with your conclusions, only your
>reasoning. (except the part about using 2 1/2" bolts, even if you could
>find them, instead of more 1/4" bolts)
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: DJ Vegh <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
>To:
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
>
>
>>
>>The weight is divided among the cabane and lift struts... albeit not
>>equally. One strut will not "feel" the entire load. The aluminum struts
>>
>are
>
>>plenty strong. A Cessna 150 has only two aluminum struts which are
>>
>similar
>
>>in strength to the large extruded ones form Carlson . A Piet has 4 stuts.
>>
>>If you ask me... in a high G situation you'll snap a spar or your back
>>
>LONG
>
>>before you fail an aluminum strut.
>>
>>As for amount of attatch bolts.. the way I se it is the point is not how
>>many but how much surface area you can get. two .5" bolts would be about
>>
>as
>
>>strong as four .25" bolts. it's surface area not quantity
>>
>>DJ
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
>>Rambo
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum lift/jury struts
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm not real current on my physics, but having four struts would not
>>
>divide
>
>>the stress into fourths, each strut would "feel" the entire load.
>>
>Standard
>
>>category aircraft are stressed to 3.8G and utility category are stressed
>>
>to
>
>>4.4G. I have seen end fittings on Luscombe struts (aluminum struts for
>>
>the
>
>>metal wings) that are attached by bolts, but a lot more than two, more
>>
>like
>
>>six.
>>
>>Gene
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Tailwheel springs and harmonics |
interesting post Doc.... I'd have never thought about the tail wheel
springs needing to be mis-matched but it makes sense! I'll make a note of
it
DJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Hey, Jack, A canard is also a false story or hoax,
usualy derogatory. Does this mean we're all ducks
flying backwards?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | 1929 Model A Doodlebug on ebay |
Looking for an engine ?...........just saw this on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1809225283&r=0
&t=0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | photos of West Palm Beach EAA Chapter trip |
Hi Pietenpol listers.
Here is a photo of Craig Wilcox, over in West Palm Beach at the Breakfast EAA homebuilt
Chapter flyin at the Regional Airport. It was a drizzly day.
Craig was my host for the day, and we went over to Indiantown to see the Pietenpol
the club had in a hanger. He has also built 6 or 7 airplanes.
Ray
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | Ray and Craig swapping lies at West Palm Beach |
This is a photo of the breakfast table. The pancakes in my belly lasted the full
day. Lot of food.
Ray on the left and Craig across on the right. We were swapping lies and tall
tales about our misspent youth, wandering Latin America and the Caribbean. Seeing
who could outdo each other.
see the photo attachment
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | ray and craig standing next to a Long EZE at the EAA chapter |
breakfast
Fellow Pietenpol listers
This is a photo of Ray and Craig standing in the drizzle behind the Long EZE at
the EAA chapter breakfast at West Palm Beach regional airport.
That Long EZE makes my mouth salivate. The guy flew in for breakfast from Minnesota.
2000 mile range on that baby with wing tanks. I gotta get one of those.
Craig says he made one, but flew it only a few hours before somebody with
big bucks came along and made him rich and he sold it.
I looked up what the second hand price was in Trade-a-plane and they run from
$20,000 to $50,000. Way too rich for my blood. Far as I could gather the engine,
a Lycombing 360 or something was the biggest expense. Big engine, certified
and big dollars to buy and maintain.
However the expert Richard Finch in his book on engine automobile conversions
says they are flying with Mazda Rotary 13B conversions, also I believe with Buick
V6, or V8 and both automobile engines are far better quality and performance
and reliability than the certified Lycombing. With that idea in mind, maybe
there might be a Long EZE in my future?
Ray
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pictures finally posted |
I have their buy-in (especially my older boy, who always wants to work on the
"Pietenpol"). I am more of a limiting factor than they are. While I love learning
and working on the plane, I love spending time with my family more. Working full
time and spending time with my boys and wife limits plane time. Common story for
most of us I'm sure.
Fortunately, as a teacher, I have summers off and can focus on aircraft stuff a
little more. I also have conscripted my students to work on the engine currently
and
probably the airframe later.
Kirk
"Gary McNeel, Jr." wrote:
>
> Looking great! And the airplane pics look good too. Congrats on the little
> one, lovely family. I take it you have buy-in from the family. That is
> essential in these types of projects.
>
> -Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | tailwheel springs |
Doc Mosher's recent comments about tailwheel springs are well taken.
There is one thing more, the springs should not be lax. There should be
a certain degree of tension in each spring. This is a ground loop
preventer.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | Pictures finally posted |
>Kirk wrote:
>I now have soon pictures posted.
>Check them out
Kirk,
Looks like you got an original Pietenpol cowl with that plane, since it was
made in Minn. in 1981 it is real possible the builder got the cowl from
Pietenpol himself. The two fiberglass parts of the cowl look exactly like
the parts I got from Dwayne Tauba, which are said to be from Pietenpol's
mold.
Work on the engine looks great.
Skip, in Atlanta still working on landing gear.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge question. |
Pieters:
I am using aluminum for my leading edge on my center section (GN-1). The
top and bottom, from front spar to rear spar is 1.5 mm plywood. When I wrap
the aluminum around the leading edge and pull it back to mate up with the
plywood on top (and on bottom), is it ok to just lap it over approximately
on top of the front spar. (Likewise on the underside) Or do I need to try
to carefully cut a layer of the tiny ply down so the aluminum will lay in
and mate up (butt up to ) the plywood. i guess my question is how perfect
does the aluminum -to- plywood transition need to be to be able to cover the
whole thing with fabric and not have it look like a bag of marbles?
Is it adviseable to use aircraft nails or could I use screws to attach the
aluminum to the plywood?
Any help is appreciated! Thanks, bert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Does anyone know of a source for 4130 steel in the Minneapolis area?
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 1929 Model A Doodlebug on ebay |
Are those pietenpol wheels on the front? Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 1929 Model A Doodlebug on ebay
>
> Looking for an engine ?...........just saw this on ebay
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1809225283&r=0
> &t=0
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craigo <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge question. |
Bert -
This aluminum is very thin - 0.020 or less. Just wrap it to the top back of the
spar, and glue and nail. Also needs to be glued/nailed to the rib noses. Be
sure that the rib noses are NOT varnished, not hte ply that you are glueing/nailing
to. Most use about 1/4" x 22 or 24 ga. a/c nails and epoxy. Space the
nails about 1/2" so you don't get any little lumps between them. It covers
nicely, but I did see one person cover the joint with epoxy/microballoons to feather
it in. Personally think that's trying to make a John Deere into a Cadillac.
Craig
Craig
Lake Worth, FL
Bakeng Duce NX96CW
PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | steering controls |
I don't know, I have been looking at these steering controls. Maybe it is my
ignorance of tubing and alloy steel.
But wouldn't an old fashioned pine broom handle work just as well, maybe even
better for a joy stick? I got lots of those around here, I stick em in the garden
to support plants. A 20 inch pine broom handle would be extra strong.
Ray
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
Dick,
I searched around a few years ago with no luck. At least not at the small volume
retail level.
Greg Cardinal
>>> horzpool(at)goldengate.net 03/07/02 10:48PM >>>
Does anyone know of a source for 4130 steel in the Minneapolis area?
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | steering controls |
Ray, it's the same problem we've discussed before on this forum. The wood
itself is strong enough to do the job, but by the time you've drilled holes
in it for the bolts to attach it to the torque tube, it is significantly
weaked and prone to split the first time a buzzrd suddenly appears in your
windscreen and you have to haul back on the stick with more than your usual
featherlight touch on the controls. Having an emergency situation requiring
quick maneuvering is NOT the place to suddenly be holding the stick up in
your hands, no longer attached to the rest of the airplane.
If you insist on changing the design and substituting wood for steel (far
trickier than this week's discussion of substituting aluminum for steel),
don't use a pine broomstick. At least use a hardwood, preferably ash or
elm - something that won't split easily. Hickory or oak can do, but they
are much more prone to splitting. Orient the grain so that the bolt holes
are running across the grain, not parallel to it. And bush the holes.
Don't allow a 1/4" bolt to ride in a 1/4" hole in the wood. In the end, I
doubt you will save any weight, since your wooden stick must be solid and
4130 thinwall tubing is pretty light. You will have avoided some of the
easiest welding in the project, which is generally a good warm up to the
tougher welds ahead of you.
The cost of enough 4130 to make the two joysticks is approximately $3. for
the fittings and bushings add maybe another $1. Just to be generous, let's
say both sticks end up costing you $5.00. Assuming you order all your steel
at one time to save shipping costs, your total cost should not be much more
than this. Why are you worried about saving costs on a five doolar item
that is the your means of piloting this craft in the air? If you are that
concerned, don't put the front stick in. You could save quite a bit by no
making that stick, or the front rudder pedals, or the linkages between the
front and rear controls. This would save weight, too, and I can tell from
your earlier posts that you are going to need all the weight savings you can
get.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fisherman
Caye
Subject: Pietenpol-List: steering controls
I don't know, I have been looking at these steering controls. Maybe it is
my ignorance of tubing and alloy steel.
But wouldn't an old fashioned pine broom handle work just as well, maybe
even better for a joy stick? I got lots of those around here, I stick em in
the garden to support plants. A 20 inch pine broom handle would be extra
strong.
Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
text/html
--- StripMime Errors ---
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resend the email using plaintext formatting
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
That was interesting! Apparently something did not like my message,
once again....
-----------
I gave up too. Any supplier with stock wanted to sell it by the ton.
Call one of the usual vendors, Wicks and Aircraft Spruce are probably
most popular, they have it cut up in convenient sizes and can do custom
cutting as well.
Most of it's reasonable, I think my cockpit controls probably cost $50
total. Just not worth beating the bushes and driving around.
Larry
Larry Neal wrote:
>
>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
>text/html
>--- StripMime Errors ---
>A message with no text/plain section was received.
>The entire body of the message was removed. Please
>resend the email using plaintext formatting
>---
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
I friend of mine in Zellwood Florida was killed about 8 years ago whn the
wooden stick in his Waco CSO biplane broke off at the base after the
passenger in the front cockpit slumped over and jammed the front stick. Old
Bob White tried valiantly to control the plane but lost it and crashed into
a lake and drowned.
Best to use the 3 dollars worth of welded (not brazed) steel.
Chris Bobka
Tech Counselor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken sticks |
Good enough for me. Steel it is. Just need to hire a (very good) welder.
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:37:26 -0600
>
>I friend of mine in Zellwood Florida was killed about 8 years ago whn the
>wooden stick in his Waco CSO biplane broke off at the base after the
>passenger in the front cockpit slumped over and jammed the front stick. Old
>Bob White tried valiantly to control the plane but lost it and crashed into
>a lake and drowned.
>
>Best to use the 3 dollars worth of welded (not brazed) steel.
>
>Chris Bobka
>Tech Counselor
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken sticks |
Chris
Ha! Ha! Ha!
I was just having a little fun with the straight and narrow squareheads on the
list.
On Fri, 08 March 2002, "Christian Bobka" wrote:
>
>
> I friend of mine in Zellwood Florida was killed about 8 years ago whn the
> wooden stick in his Waco CSO biplane broke off at the base after the
> passenger in the front cockpit slumped over and jammed the front stick. Old
> Bob White tried valiantly to control the plane but lost it and crashed into
> a lake and drowned.
>
> Best to use the 3 dollars worth of welded (not brazed) steel.
>
> Chris Bobka
> Tech Counselor
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fisherman Caye <cayecaulker(at)justice.com> |
Been reading, or rather glancing through Sportplane Construction Techniques by
Tony Bingelis, my local library got for me through Inter-Library Loan at the
Reference Desk. The book came from way up in Daytona Beach, Florida a few hundred
miles from here. The Jack R. Hunt Library.
Anyway, this book recommended by Kip ( I think?) on the list, is pretty okay.
Guess I am going to order a copy when I turn this one back in to the library.
I like the photo of the steerable tail wheel. Should be able to jury rig something
up from that. I found the section on fuel tanks the most interesting,
so far. I had planned to get somebody to weld up aluminum tanks, but bit nervous
about them, as a crash that you could walk away from, might kill you from
the fireball when the aluminum tanks split.
So, the section on expoxy resin, fiberglass cloth and foam wall tanks was very
interesting. Think I'll go that route. Very easy to do, presuming you can
actually find the small quantitites of materials to buy locally. And one hell
of a lot stronger in a crash.
The section about wing tanks was good. Interesting to see that they put them
forward along the leading edge and the forward main spar. I can guess the weight
and balance situation, but looking at my left wing, I was diddling with today,
that does not seem to be practical. At least for any quantity. On the
other hand, utilizing the space between the ribs, the first, second and third
bays, would give you about 2 gallons a bay, or six gallons on each wing. For
an extra total of 12 gallons. That looks good. But on reflection, I haven't
got any tension wires in there yet, so that might not work after all? Guess we
shall see as the wings get more closer to completion.
About overweight! Been reading up on all the experts on it. Doesn't really
seem to be that big a problem being a bit overweight if you use a bigger engine?
Far as I can see, most people have too small an engine in their Pietenpols.
You start talking 65 hp, or less for cruise; but if you up to the Corvair and
get 90 hp or more, then any extra weight gets taken care of by horsepower and
your pocketbook buying gasoline. A 125 hp engine of any kind would presumably
take care of any weight problems. That is also confirmed by the guy in UK,
I think it was, that said he was up to 10,000 ft with his Pietenpol and bigger
engine. Same with that mountain guy who has a cross country web page about
crossing the Rocky Mountains from outa Utah in his Pietenpol. There was a chapter
or section on the difference in performance of several Pietenpols flying
together depending on horsepower. Anyway to make a long story short, I would
like at least 90 hp, but have not picked an engine yet. My plane should hopefully
be able to land and take off at 3000 feet above sea level, otherwise it
is not going to be much use. That as I read the experts means horsepower?
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken sticks |
Unfortunately, if you remember the story of the boy who cried "wolf!" Your
"trolls" are very similar.
More people than you think have e-mail filters. Sooner or later you will
seriously need the help from someone who will never see your request as your
name is in the auto-delete file.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Bellanca Champion Club
Newsletter Editor & EAA TC
www.bellanca-championclub.com
We also support Aeroncas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fisherman Caye" <cayecaulker(at)justice.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Broken sticks
Chris
Ha! Ha! Ha!
I was just having a little fun with the straight and narrow squareheads on
the list.
On Fri, 08 March 2002, "Christian Bobka" wrote:
>
>
> I friend of mine in Zellwood Florida was killed about 8 years ago whn the
> wooden stick in his Waco CSO biplane broke off at the base after the
> passenger in the front cockpit slumped over and jammed the front stick.
Old
> Bob White tried valiantly to control the plane but lost it and crashed
into
> a lake and drowned.
>
> Best to use the 3 dollars worth of welded (not brazed) steel.
>
> Chris Bobka
> Tech Counselor
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm now where a some of you guys were a few years ago, trying to figure
out how to build the shaped metal control horns.
In the archives, there is assurance that it's easier than it looks, but
putting the convex surface on the parts before welding seems to involve
a lot of hammering on vises and yanking with pliers.
Has anyone come up with tips for bending these parts?
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Larry, they really are not as hard as they look. Cut the pieces out per the
plans, being sure to align the grain of the steel ACROSS the bend lines as
much as possible. Make yourself a bending block with the proper radius
ground along the edge (I used a piece of 3/8" thick steel about 8" long) and
clamp the work in the vice with the edge exposed above the vise. The
tangent point of the ground radius of your bending block should be even with
the bend point on the workpiece. After everything is well clamped, start
working the edge with a hammer. This stell is pretty thin, so you don't
have to hit it really hard, but you've gotta do more than just tap it. Work
it down until you have bent it the required amount, then do the other piece.
You should be able to fit them together and not have more than about 1/16"
gap betweent the two pieces before welding.
To weld them, I found it easiest to put just the edge of the trailing edge
of the two pieces into the vise and lightly clamp them together, just enough
to hold them. Make sure the edges all line up properly, then tack weld the
two pieces together at a couple of places on each leading edge. Use the
smallest torch tip you've got and be very careful - it doesn't take much to
burn through this thin material. After tacking the leading edges, I turned
the part around and found that the trailing edges were firmly held together
by the leading edge tack welds. I started at the tip and edge welded the
entire trailing edge in one pass. You probably won't ned any filler at all
from the welding rod - just push the puddle down the edge with the torch.
Once the trailing edge is welded from tip to tip, turn it back over and weld
the leading edges. Since this is the formed area and there is probably a
little gap in places between the parts, you will need some filler metal
here, but don't get carried away with it.
You will probably screw up the first one (I did), but by the time you've
finished, you'll be able to weld one up in less than an hour.
One more thing - when adding the brackets on the back of the horn, be sure
to keep the torch almost totally on the thicker bracket material as you can
easily burn through the thin sheet metal of the horn.
After everything is welded, drill the holes. If you drill the holes first,
they will be distorted by the time you are finished.
Good luck,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Neal
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
I'm now where a some of you guys were a few years ago, trying to figure
out how to build the shaped metal control horns.
In the archives, there is assurance that it's easier than it looks, but
putting the convex surface on the parts before welding seems to involve
a lot of hammering on vises and yanking with pliers.
Has anyone come up with tips for bending these parts?
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron horns |
Great description Jack. Thanks!
~Warren
Jack Phillips wrote:
>
> Larry, they really are not as hard as they look. Cut the pieces out per the
> plans, being sure to align the grain of the steel ACROSS the bend lines as
> much as possible. Make yourself a bending block with the proper radius
> ground along the edge (I used a piece of 3/8" thick steel about 8" long) and
> clamp the work in the vice with the edge exposed above the vise. The
> tangent point of the ground radius of your bending block should be even with
> the bend point on the workpiece. After everything is well clamped, start
> working the edge with a hammer. This stell is pretty thin, so you don't
> have to hit it really hard, but you've gotta do more than just tap it. Work
> it down until you have bent it the required amount, then do the other piece.
> You should be able to fit them together and not have more than about 1/16"
> gap betweent the two pieces before welding.
>
> To weld them, I found it easiest to put just the edge of the trailing edge
> of the two pieces into the vise and lightly clamp them together, just enough
> to hold them. Make sure the edges all line up properly, then tack weld the
> two pieces together at a couple of places on each leading edge. Use the
> smallest torch tip you've got and be very careful - it doesn't take much to
> burn through this thin material. After tacking the leading edges, I turned
> the part around and found that the trailing edges were firmly held together
> by the leading edge tack welds. I started at the tip and edge welded the
> entire trailing edge in one pass. You probably won't ned any filler at all
> from the welding rod - just push the puddle down the edge with the torch.
> Once the trailing edge is welded from tip to tip, turn it back over and weld
> the leading edges. Since this is the formed area and there is probably a
> little gap in places between the parts, you will need some filler metal
> here, but don't get carried away with it.
>
> You will probably screw up the first one (I did), but by the time you've
> finished, you'll be able to weld one up in less than an hour.
>
> One more thing - when adding the brackets on the back of the horn, be sure
> to keep the torch almost totally on the thicker bracket material as you can
> easily burn through the thin sheet metal of the horn.
>
> After everything is welded, drill the holes. If you drill the holes first,
> they will be distorted by the time you are finished.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Neal
> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:43 AM
> To: piet list
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
>
>
> I'm now where a some of you guys were a few years ago, trying to figure
> out how to build the shaped metal control horns.
> In the archives, there is assurance that it's easier than it looks, but
> putting the convex surface on the parts before welding seems to involve
> a lot of hammering on vises and yanking with pliers.
> Has anyone come up with tips for bending these parts?
>
> Larry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge question. |
Bert
You've raised a subject that may just have as many answers as there are
builders. I had my own thoughts, but after reading Craig's reply I don't know
that I could improve on what he said. I had thought that anti-chafe tape
might be appropriate to avoid wear on the fabric from the edge, but that
would be pretty obvious if you are using 1.7 0z cover. A very slight 1/4"
bend along the edge might help and the nails would then help to flatten it.
For those Piet wood butchers who may be going to Sun 'n Fun April 6th
through(I think) the 13th...Bert heads up the wood workshop that operates all
day, every day. You won't find a better place to get answers to some of your
building questions, so plan to make it a must see during your visit. I will
be working with Bert and several other Piet builder/volunteers and would
like to see and talk to any of you whose names are so familiar on the list.
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken sticks |
Oh, I think that will work out all the way around Cy.
This chap isn't asking for any real useable answers....he just comes on here
to "humor" himself...and if we are all real lucky, his over weight out of
balance jury rigged contraption will be the prettiest lawn ornament in all of
Florida...right next to his pink plastic flamingos.
"Weight and Balance?...we don't need no stinkin' Weight and Balance".
Cy Galley wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, if you remember the story of the boy who cried "wolf!" Your
> "trolls" are very similar.
>
> More people than you think have e-mail filters. Sooner or later you will
> seriously need the help from someone who will never see your request as your
> name is in the auto-delete file.
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
> Bellanca Champion Club
> Newsletter Editor & EAA TC
> www.bellanca-championclub.com
> We also support Aeroncas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fisherman Caye" <cayecaulker(at)justice.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Broken sticks
>
>
>
> Chris
>
> Ha! Ha! Ha!
>
> I was just having a little fun with the straight and narrow squareheads on
> the list.
>
> On Fri, 08 March 2002, "Christian Bobka" wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> > I friend of mine in Zellwood Florida was killed about 8 years ago whn the
> > wooden stick in his Waco CSO biplane broke off at the base after the
> > passenger in the front cockpit slumped over and jammed the front stick.
> Old
> > Bob White tried valiantly to control the plane but lost it and crashed
> into
> > a lake and drowned.
> >
> > Best to use the 3 dollars worth of welded (not brazed) steel.
> >
> > Chris Bobka
> > Tech Counselor
> >
> >
>
> FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community
> http://www.FindLaw.com
> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!
> http://mail.Justice.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron horns |
Larry, you may also want to get in contact with Ken Perkins. He has some (slightly)
modified plans for the flight controls that take out the slack often found
in the Pietenpols. The cost is about $22 including shipping.
Here is his email address:
kenvernaperkins(at)juno.com
And his plane:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/planeDetail.cfm?PlaneID=45
He is not the most web savvy user, but is pretty good about getting back to you.
Also, for you Model A guys, he makes several parts.
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 02:42:59 -0600
>
>I'm now where a some of you guys were a few years ago, trying to figure
>out how to build the shaped metal control horns.
>In the archives, there is assurance that it's easier than it looks, but
>putting the convex surface on the parts before welding seems to involve
>a lot of hammering on vises and yanking with pliers.
>Has anyone come up with tips for bending these parts?
>
>Larry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron horns |
I clearly can't improve on Jack's post but one thing that made them easier
to me is that they are not really curved as much as you bend a flange along
a straight line on one side only and weld the edges. Most of the curve
comes from how sharp (or not) you make the bend.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
Has anyone made the control horns from a single heavier 4130 (like maybe
1/8) or would they bend too easily? Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron horns |
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Neal
To: piet list
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
I'm now where a some of you guys were a few years ago, trying to
figure
out how to build the shaped metal control horns.
In the archives, there is assurance that it's easier than it looks,
but
putting the convex surface on the parts before welding seems to
involve
a lot of hammering on vises and yanking with pliers.
Has anyone come up with tips for bending these parts?
Larry
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I didn't bend them. I cut the horns out of flat al stock. The were
attached by way of small al angles riveted to the flat stock which in
turn was bolted to the aileron.
It's been working for 14 years.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
| Subject: | Re: control horns |
I believe the control horns Replicraft was making were solid steel.
Heavier and probably not as stiff as the built up ones.
I paniced when I looked at the Piet horns about a year ago too. But
once you get the hang of it they're almost fun to make.
Light and extremely strong.
Ed G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
my GN1 has .090 4130 aileron/rubber/elevator horns. No welding or curving
required. Can make one in about 30 minutes.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark
Subject: Pietenpol-List: control horns
Has anyone made the control horns from a single heavier 4130 (like maybe
1/8) or would they bend too easily? Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken sticks |
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary McNeel, Jr.
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Broken sticks
That get's a bit old Ray.
Some people may have a hard time telling when you are joking and are
serious as it is difficult to see someone emote in an email. As the
story from Chris shows (and other stories found all over), there are
people who use materials and/or methods that are, or can be, very
dangerous.
I think I have a pretty good sense of humor, heck, I mean I laugh any
time I see George Bush, but sometimes emails joking about very serious
subjects (like the materials used to build aircraft and building
methods) can be confusing, especially to new people to the list or
people who have very little building experience or who have no sense of
humor. They may actually think that, based on the amount of submissions
made by a person or based on nice looking web sites full of pictures of
aircraft parts, the person is an "authority". Pictures too can be very
deceptive. I could build all my ribs out of Elmers white glue (do NOT do
this) and take a picture and it would look wonderful.
I am just saying that I think we have a responsibilty to the people
who may use this as a resource. We should be clear about our statements
and intent.
-Gary
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well said Gary. I usually do not reply to spam, but the nonsense that
guy has been sending is an insult to this fine group.
Mike B Piet N587MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron horns |
On the Boredom fighter, which has nearly identical horns, they are one-piece BUT
they have thin wood on each side formed in an aerodynamic shape (epoxied on).
This prevents vibration (I am told). They look great. This is a plane stressed
at +10 and -6 Gs. It was designed by a retired Lockheed(?) engineer. I am building
mine that way. I have some pics (I think) and will post them on my site
later. They were quite strong.
On another note: Like many of you I am doing a T-88 test. So far each one has failed
the wood, not the epoxy, not even a little.
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:07:29 -0500
>
>I clearly can't improve on Jack's post but one thing that made them easier
>to me is that they are not really curved as much as you bend a flange along
>a straight line on one side only and weld the edges. Most of the curve
>comes from how sharp (or not) you make the bend.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | TIG welding class |
Hello, folks;
Sorry if this is a repeat for some of you on the CorvAIRCRAFT or other
lists, but it's good info and timely relative to the questions raised about
welding in the recent past. It's from Mark Langford, who is building a
KR-2S and is one of the best resources out there for KR and Corvair builders
due to his excellent website information. If you aren't interested in
welding, just this and move on!
=====================
From: "Mark Langford" <langford(at)hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:44:00 -0600
This weekend I went to the EAA/Sportair Advanced TIG Welding class in
Griffin Georgia and learned a LOT about TIG welding. Most importantly, that
my welds are "good to go". We specialized in TIG welding 4130 thin-wall
tubing. As usual, there are lots more details at
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/ . It was an invaluable
experience, and I highly recommend it!
I can tell you that trying to stick and gas weld my "practice" engine mount
will go down as one of the most frustrating periods of my life.
The day I bought the Lincoln Square Wave 175 at Oshkosh, my life changed for
the better. If you want to buy one of these, buy it at SNF or Oshkosh, as
it's as cheap as you'll find a new one anywhere ($1,340, which is
practically dealer cost, I believe), and shipping is free. Used ones are
hard to find.
If I sound like a Lincoln Electric ad, it's because I'm still convinced that
it was some of the best money I've ever spent! By the way, avoid the cheap
Miller EconoTIG in the Sunday paper, as it's lower end is only 30 amps. The
Lincoln now occupies the lion's share of this market, because it goes down
to an amp or so. Do your own research, and you won't find anybody that
thinks they shouldn't have bought a 175. I realize that life is too short
for many of you to
consider buying a TIG welder and learning to use it, but my next project is
going to be a 4130 tube chassis for the worlds fastest Karmann Ghia!
~~~Mark Langford; Harvest, AL; langford(at)hiwaay.net
=================
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael CONKLING" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron horns |
same technology (1929) as on the Heath Parasol aileron horns -- although Ed
Heath used a couple rivets or machine screws instead of T-88! ;-)
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
>
> On the Boredom fighter, which has nearly identical horns, they are
one-piece BUT they have thin wood on each side formed in an aerodynamic
shape (epoxied on). This prevents vibration (I am told). They look great.
This is a plane stressed at +10 and -6 Gs. It was designed by a retired
Lockheed(?) engineer. I am building mine that way. I have some pics (I
think) and will post them on my site later. They were quite strong.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Here is a picture. Also not the fittings. These replace turnbuckles.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/PeoplesPlanes/TailBracing1Closeup.jpg
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:37 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: control horns
>
>
> Has anyone made the control horns from a single heavier 4130 (like maybe
> 1/8) or would they bend too easily? Mark
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Holland" <iholland(at)telusplanet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken sticks |
Never mind the brazing welding. Anyone got a cure for verbal diarrhea?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Horn fabrication |
All, thanks, that clarified a lot.
Anyone that is not convinced this list is worthwhile should get ten
helpful emails in one afternoon. Convincing to say the least.
I'm going to make the two bend per side arrangement on the control horns
rather than flailing away at trying to make these a rounded shape.
Welding the edges should get me back up to snuff with the gas torch as well.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge question. |
Don Hicks brought up something that I forgot to mention in my post on how to
attach the LE aluminum - or any other sheet metal in similar situations.
Take a slim piece of hardwood, about 3/4" square or so, and about 8 inches
long. In one end, cut a small slot just a bit thicker than the sheet metal,
and about 3/16" to 1/4" deep. Wrap some safety wire around the wood below
the slot, so that it doesn't split.
Now, run the stick along the edge of the metal that is going to be against
the spar, and g e n t l y bend a slight lip on the metal - 5 degrees or so
is plenty. Just hold it at a slight angle and run it along the edge. Now
you have a nice downturn on th emetal to lessen the step between the wood
and the metal. Be sure to just bend a little bit, and you really need only
about 1/4". Really dresses up the join.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Thanks Greg
I think I found some today. Jorgenson Steel is sending me a list of their
stock. They also have a location in Chicago.
I'll post further if it works out.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130
>
> Dick,
> I searched around a few years ago with no luck. At least not at the small
volume retail level.
>
> Greg Cardinal
>
> >>> horzpool(at)goldengate.net 03/07/02 10:48PM >>>
>
> Does anyone know of a source for 4130 steel in the Minneapolis area?
> Dick
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Gary,
The Boredom Fighter's designer, Don wolf, was a Long Island guy that worked
as an engineer for either Republic or Grummans or most likely (for all the
defense industry engineers chasing contracts...like my dad) both concerns at
one time or another. He was from my home town. The pictures you see of his
airplane in various pubs from the BFs heyday are taken at Brookhaven Airport
on Mastic, LI.
chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
McNeel, Jr.
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
On the Boredom fighter, which has nearly identical horns, they are one-piece
BUT they have thin wood on each side formed in an aerodynamic shape (epoxied
on). This prevents vibration (I am told). They look great. This is a plane
stressed at +10 and -6 Gs. It was designed by a retired Lockheed(?)
engineer. I am building mine that way. I have some pics (I think) and will
post them on my site later. They were quite strong.
On another note: Like many of you I am doing a T-88 test. So far each one
has failed the wood, not the epoxy, not even a little.
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:07:29 -0500
>
>I clearly can't improve on Jack's post but one thing that made them easier
>to me is that they are not really curved as much as you bend a flange along
>a straight line on one side only and weld the edges. Most of the curve
>comes from how sharp (or not) you make the bend.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bret & Robin Chilcott <chilcott(at)terraworld.net> |
| Subject: | Performance specs - Corvair VS Model A |
Hi guys!
A quick question in my thirst for Pietenpol knowledge!
What are the basic performance differences between a Ford Model A VS a
Corviar powered Piet?
Thank you!
Bret Chilcott
Neodesha, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Cure for the verbal diahrea |
See you guys. I am out of here.
Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
McNeel, Jr.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: control horns
Here is a picture. Also not the fittings. These replace turnbuckles.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/PeoplesPlanes/TailBracing1Closeup.jpg
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:37 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: control horns
>
>
> Has anyone made the control horns from a single heavier 4130 (like maybe
> 1/8) or would they bend too easily? Mark
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NormDecou(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Spruce strips used in tail |
I was getting ready to cut some spruce strips for the tail. The plan
dimensions for these are 1/2 x 3/16 (.500 x .187). I am under the impression
that the sole purpose of these strips is to position the fabric and I am
considering using a board that is .420 thick (would give me strips that are
.420 x .187). I just wanted to make sure that these strips didn't serve any
structural purpose and that I wasn't causing other problems by making this
change.
I would appreciate any advice.
Thanks Again
Norm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
That get's a bit old Ray.
Some people may have a hard time telling when you are joking and are serious
as it is difficult to see someone emote in an email. As the story from Chris
shows (and other stories found all over), there are people who use materials
and/or methods that are, or can be, very dangerous.
I think I have a pretty good sense of humor, heck, I mean I laugh any time I
see George Bush, but sometimes emails joking about very serious subjects
(like the materials used to build aircraft and building methods) can be
confusing, especially to new people to the list or people who have very
little building experience or who have no sense of humor. They may actually
think that, based on the amount of submissions made by a person or based on
nice looking web sites full of pictures of aircraft parts, the person is an
"authority". Pictures too can be very deceptive. I could build all my ribs
out of Elmers white glue (do NOT do this) and take a picture and it would
look wonderful.
I am just saying that I think we have a responsibilty to the people who may
use this as a resource. We should be clear about our statements and intent.
-Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Thanks Christian. -Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian
> Bobka
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 9:16 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
>
>
>
>
> Gary,
>
> The Boredom Fighter's designer, Don wolf, was a Long Island guy
> that worked
> as an engineer for either Republic or Grummans or most likely (for all the
> defense industry engineers chasing contracts...like my dad) both
> concerns at
> one time or another. He was from my home town. The pictures you
> see of his
> airplane in various pubs from the BFs heyday are taken at
> Brookhaven Airport
> on Mastic, LI.
>
> chris Bobka
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
> McNeel, Jr.
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron horns
>
>
>
>
> On the Boredom fighter, which has nearly identical horns, they
> are one-piece
> BUT they have thin wood on each side formed in an aerodynamic
> shape (epoxied
> on). This prevents vibration (I am told). They look great. This is a plane
> stressed at +10 and -6 Gs. It was designed by a retired Lockheed(?)
> engineer. I am building mine that way. I have some pics (I think) and will
> post them on my site later. They were quite strong.
>
> On another note: Like many of you I am doing a T-88 test. So far each one
> has failed the wood, not the epoxy, not even a little.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:07:29 -0500
>
> >
> >I clearly can't improve on Jack's post but one thing that made
> them easier
> >to me is that they are not really curved as much as you bend a
> flange along
> >a straight line on one side only and weld the edges. Most of the curve
> >comes from how sharp (or not) you make the bend.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | wood, wood, wood..... |
As far as I can see is Douglas fir, some spruce, and me with no way to get it home.
Just visiting with a high school friend here in the N.W. and he's asking,
"how much spruce do you need?" What's the allowable carry on for airlines now?
Seriously, what is the maximum length needed, providing I go with a 3 piece wing?
I'm trying to figure out the shipping costs for a couple of pieces of wood.
Larry Ragan
Jacksonville, Fl.
lragan(at)hotmail.com
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | W&B with tube frame |
It hurts to ask this, since I have never really been able to feel
that a tube-fuselage plane is really a Piet, even if The Master
himself designed it, but does anyone know how the steel
frame balances with a Ford engine? I'm pretty much firm
on wanting to go with Model A power, and my next project
will be a tube-and-fabric plane with a lot higher performance.
It would make some sense to build my Piet with the same
construction methods I'll need later on, but not at the expense
of requiring a lighter engine on the nose.
Many thanks.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: W&B with tube frame |
>
>It hurts to ask this, since I have never really been able to feel
>that a tube-fuselage plane is really a Piet, even if The Master
>himself designed it, but does anyone know how the steel
>frame balances with a Ford engine? I'm pretty much firm
>on wanting to go with Model A power, and my next project
>will be a tube-and-fabric plane with a lot higher performance.
>It would make some sense to build my Piet with the same
>construction methods I'll need later on, but not at the expense
>of requiring a lighter engine on the nose.
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Owen Davies
Owen,
Check your plans, but I'm pretty sure that the steel-tube fuse is based on
the short-fuse, 1933 "Improved Air Camper" and not on the longer one for
the Corvair, Continental, etc.
If you don't have a set of plans with the steel fuse dimensions, let me
know & I'll check mine.
Kip
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spruce strips used in tail |
In a message dated 3/8/02 8:05:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, NormDecou(at)aol.com
writes:
> I was getting ready to cut some spruce strips for the tail. The plan
> dimensions for these are 1/2 x 3/16 (.500 x .187). I am under the
> impression
> that the sole purpose of these strips is to position the fabric and I am
> considering using a board that is .420 thick (would give me strips that are
>
> .420 x .187). I just wanted to make sure that these strips didn't serve
> any
> structural purpose and that I wasn't causing other problems by making this
> change.
> I would appreciate any advice.
> Thanks Again
> Norm
>
>
>
Norm,
It would hard to advise a builder to not follow at least the basic design
flow of the airplane. I would suggest you get some 1/2 wood. Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List |
Pieters,
I must have missed Chris' benediction. Is this the Chris in Sacramento and
where is he going?
Corky in La hating to lose a good Pieter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cure for the verbal diahrea |
In a message dated 03/08/2002 9:51:04 PM Central Standard Time,
bobka(at)charter.net writes:
<< See you guys. I am out of here.
Bobka >>
Whoa !! Hold on Chris...you're much too valuable to this list. I know that
comment was tagged onto one of you posts, but the way I interpreted it, it
was aimed at the Mouth from Belize. Please...just ignore his messages and
let's not lose the great group of SINCERE CONTRIBUTORS we're so fortunate to
have. Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
| Subject: | stick with the list guys |
Well said, Mike I'm in the process of building my controls
(torque tube sticks etc.) I have some 2" plastic pullys from Wicks.
Should a 1/4 " washer be put inside the bracket on each side of the
pully or should the sides of the brackets be agaist the pully bearing.
Thanks for helping Mark ( only 100mi. from Corky) in windy Mt.
Pleasant Tx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Marinucci" <srmjem(at)ezol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation |
Boy, I hope no one else quits this group..... I'd better ask this question
before there's nobody left to answer it. Just kidding of course, but
seriously, as Mike Cuy said,this is a great group of guys and it would be a
shame to lose any of their expertise if more guys bail out.
Now for my question: I'm installing a J-3 fuel tank in the fuselage and am
wondering about the hold down straps. What thickness (gage) should I use?
Can I use 16 gage galvanized steel or do they have to be 4130? I can get the
galvanized stuff locally but would have to order the 4130 steel which would
set me back a week or so. I'd like to get the tank installed this week if
possible. What about the adjustment on the straps? How are the ends setup so
the straps can be tightened to secure the tank?
I've been at this project for about three years now and at this point the
fuselage is on the gear, the wing center section is just about done (I just
need to make a cover or hatch), the tail surfaces are completed, 30 wing
ribs are done, and I made four I-beam wing spars. My wife keeps asking me
when will it be finished..... my standard answer is "three more years
Honey". I've been saying that for the past three years.
Sam Marinucci
N115SM (reserved number)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | J-3 landing gear question |
Last week bought used J-3 landing gear vee's and shock tubes for my GN-1. I
was going to order some bungee's for it but the catalog shows 2 versions for
the J-3. An older style version and newer. The difference was in the
diameter. The earlier was 7.5" and the newer is 8".
I have no idea what version my J-3 shock tubes are. Does anyone know how I
can tell?? Is there a specific dimension I can measure to tell me??
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Wooden landing gear question |
All right, I need to speak to all of you who have successfully built
(and flown!) the wooden spreader bar gear. After planning for weeks, I
went out today and butchered all of the pattern material I had trying to
make the side legs. After thinking that I had it all figured out, there
is a glitch in the system that I had not anticipated. It is too
difficult to explain in writing, and I may ask if you would give me a
phone number so I can try to ask in person.
HELP, please!
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stick with the list guys.........
>
> Group----Despite all the distracting posts, pulling of legs,
ad-infinitum,
> ad-nauseum crap about the deep sea and far off lands that no one on this
> list could really give a rats butt about, let's stick together, ok
I agree with you, Mike. I'm still in.....
Question of the day..... I need to paint some wing fittings, cabane
struts, and other KEYparts. Some are unreachable for inspection. Is there
really any reason why I cant use a good quality automotive primer? Of
course my plane will be hangared... I just HATE having to order Zinc
Chromate..
But if I have to I will.
bert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Allen" <GeorgeA(at)PAonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cure for the verbal diahrea |
CHRIS, Great idea. I love the turnbuckle replacements. I didn't know what
I was going to do about them, but I wasn't going to pay the crazy prices
AS&S wants for them. You solved my dilema. Thanks.
George Allen
Harrisburg, PA
GeorgeA(at)PAonline.com
(Peitenpol builder)2% done ....99% to go..;-)
> Here is a picture. Also not the fittings. These replace turnbuckles.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: stick with the list guys |
In a message dated 3/9/02 12:48:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
markmc(at)bluebonnet.net writes:
> Well said, Mike I'm in the process of building my controls
> (torque tube sticks etc.) I have some 2" plastic pullys from Wicks.
> Should a 1/4 " washer be put inside the bracket on each side of the
> pully or should the sides of the brackets be agaist the pully bearing.
> Thanks for helping Mark ( only 100mi. from Corky) in windy Mt.
> Pleasant Tx
>
>
>
Mark,
Pulleys can be ganged bearing to bearing, bearing to bracket without any
washers. This configuration becomes part of the cable jump protection for
these two pulleys. Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
Well said.
The learning, camaraderie and outright tomfoolery on this list is great.
Let's not screw it up with trolls and attacks.
These guys are (were) invaluable assets to anyone who wants to learn how
to build an aircraft. Fun is okay, but don't kick your teacher and
expect to learn anything.
Larry
(Been here since AVSIG, don't intend to leave...)
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
>Group----Despite all the distracting posts, pulling of legs, ad-infinitum,
>ad-nauseum crap about the deep sea and far off lands that no one on this
>list could really give a rats butt about, let's stick together, ok
>?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
In a message dated 3/9/02 5:07:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bconoly(at)earthlink.net writes:
> Question of the day..... I need to paint some wing fittings, cabane
> struts, and other KEYparts. Some are unreachable for inspection. Is there
> really any reason why I cant use a good quality automotive primer? Of
> course my plane will be hangared... I just HATE having to order Zinc
> Chromate..
> But if I have to I will.
>
> bert
>
>
>
Bert,
My humble opinion; In my A&P program years ago, we used Zinc Chromate only
for aluminum after an Alodine and etch treatment. I paint all my steel parts
with spray can primer followed by a color top coat of spray can paint or
brushed on oil based enamel and it seems to hold up fine for me. Doug
Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Horn fabrication |
| From: | catdesigns(at)juno.com |
Larry and All:
I found that if I made 3 lines about 1/8th inch apart on the upper edge/
leading edge then put a gentle bend at each line the shape turned out
fine. Also I found that if I used a 3/4inx3/4in x 6in hardwood block I
could hit the block and control the area of bend a lot better then just
whacking the steel with a hammer. (My hammer also left tool marks that I
felt were not good.) I have since made different face shapes on several
of these blocks and use them for all the bending. I have a picture of
this process if this is too vague (Pictures are not as good as I had
hoped. I should get a digital camera).
Chris
Sacramento, CA
Building like a Piet flies.........Slow with a lot of stops in between
but eventually I will get there.
writes:
>
>
> All, thanks, that clarified a lot.
> Anyone that is not convinced this list is worthwhile should get ten
>
> helpful emails in one afternoon. Convincing to say the least.
>
> I'm going to make the two bend per side arrangement on the control
> horns
> rather than flailing away at trying to make these a rounded shape.
> Welding the edges should get me back up to snuff with the gas torch
> as well.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> messages.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
Bert,
Check out www.por-15.com I am using por-15 on all my fittings and
even my engine. They have a starter kit for $20 or something and
that will cover 12sq ft (all your fittings). You can use any paint to
cover the por-15 base it you want.
The por-15 can be cleaned with MEK and some other solvents, but once
it dries I don't think MEK will touch it. I'll test that this week on
some fittings
Some pictures at my web site down below and no, I don't have stock
in them I just like the product so far.
Kirk
>
>
>I agree with you, Mike. I'm still in.....
>
>Question of the day..... I need to paint some wing fittings, cabane
>struts, and other KEYparts. Some are unreachable for inspection. Is there
>really any reason why I cant use a good quality automotive primer? Of
>course my plane will be hangared... I just HATE having to order Zinc
>Chromate..
>But if I have to I will.
>
>bert
>
--
Corvair & Aircamper Pictures
http://homepage.mac.com/khuizenga/PhotoAlbum8.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
----- Original Message -----
From: Bert Conoly
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stick with the list guys.........
Question of the day..... I need to paint some wing fittings, cabane
struts, and other KEYparts. Some are unreachable for inspection. Is
there
really any reason why I cant use a good quality automotive primer? Of
course my plane will be hangared... I just HATE having to order Zinc
Chromate..
But if I have to I will.
bert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I had no problem using auto primer. In fact, I used canned spray paint
to paint all the metal fittings including the struts. So far, after 14
years, no problems.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
PS. I used auto paint on the wings.
=
=
messages.
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
I think we should consider Ray as a catylist.
Without his sillyness in regard to wood control
sticks we never would have heard the Waco
story. I wonder how many have thought a
fancy wood stick would be great? I have.
Think back on other similiar discussions.
I agree that the dross is a concern as it plugs
up Matt's list memory. Maybe Ray could take
that into consideration in the future and
confine most of it to his own website were
anyone interested in that stuff could access it.
Now if we could just entice those other guys
back??? Hang in there, Clif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
Doug. Is that just a common auto primer such as one would get at a auto
supply store? Heretofore I have used regular old spray primers for landing
gear, controls, etc. But they are easily inspected and accessible. I guess
I am sensitive to Spar fittings etc that you cant get to to check the
condition easily. I THINK I am feeling better about just using an
automotive primer and be done with it.
(SEE...... That's why I'm still here!)
Thanks, bert (from Tallahassee where we've seen and absolutely beautiful day
today.)
----- Original Message -----
From: <Doug413(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stick with the list guys.........
>
> In a message dated 3/9/02 5:07:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> bconoly(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
>
> > Question of the day..... I need to paint some wing fittings, cabane
> > struts, and other KEYparts. Some are unreachable for inspection. Is
there
> > really any reason why I cant use a good quality automotive primer? Of
> > course my plane will be hangared... I just HATE having to order Zinc
> > Chromate..
> > But if I have to I will.
> >
> > bert
> >
> >
> >
>
> Bert,
>
> My humble opinion; In my A&P program years ago, we used Zinc Chromate only
> for aluminum after an Alodine and etch treatment. I paint all my steel
parts
> with spray can primer followed by a color top coat of spray can paint or
> brushed on oil based enamel and it seems to hold up fine for me. Doug
> Bryant
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation |
Hi Sam,
Most planes use 1" wide stainless steel straps .035" thick to hold down the
fuel tank. The straps should be padded with neoprene or wool felt so they
don't chafe against the tank. ACS sells the straps at about 10 cents a
foot. They also sell the anti-chafe padding. You should try to
iincorporate a turnbuckle or some other means to apply tension to the strap
to make sure it really holds the tank down, even under negative g's.
Jack
NX899JP (also a reserved number)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Marinucci
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel tank installation
Boy, I hope no one else quits this group..... I'd better ask this question
before there's nobody left to answer it. Just kidding of course, but
seriously, as Mike Cuy said,this is a great group of guys and it would be a
shame to lose any of their expertise if more guys bail out.
Now for my question: I'm installing a J-3 fuel tank in the fuselage and am
wondering about the hold down straps. What thickness (gage) should I use?
Can I use 16 gage galvanized steel or do they have to be 4130? I can get the
galvanized stuff locally but would have to order the 4130 steel which would
set me back a week or so. I'd like to get the tank installed this week if
possible. What about the adjustment on the straps? How are the ends setup so
the straps can be tightened to secure the tank?
I've been at this project for about three years now and at this point the
fuselage is on the gear, the wing center section is just about done (I just
need to make a cover or hatch), the tail surfaces are completed, 30 wing
ribs are done, and I made four I-beam wing spars. My wife keeps asking me
when will it be finished..... my standard answer is "three more years
Honey". I've been saying that for the past three years.
Sam Marinucci
N115SM (reserved number)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
Some time ago(last year, I think) there
was a post about POR15, a rust proofing
primer. I bought some. The information with
it stressed that a primer is only there to
make paint stick. All primers have to be
painted over as primer is porous and causes
moisture to wick in. This came up somewhere
else too, SA, Experimenter, Kitplanes maybe?
I used to think of primer as paint before this.
----- Original Message -----
From: <doug413(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stick with the list guys.........
>
> In a message dated 3/9/02 5:07:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> bconoly(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
>
> > Question of the day..... I need to paint some wing fittings, cabane
> > struts, and other KEYparts. Some are unreachable for inspection. Is
there
> > really any reason why I cant use a good quality automotive primer? Of
> > course my plane will be hangared... I just HATE having to order Zinc
> > Chromate..
> > But if I have to I will.
> >
> > bert
> >
> >
> >
>
> Bert,
>
> My humble opinion; In my A&P program years ago, we used Zinc Chromate only
> for aluminum after an Alodine and etch treatment. I paint all my steel
parts
> with spray can primer followed by a color top coat of spray can paint or
> brushed on oil based enamel and it seems to hold up fine for me. Doug
> Bryant
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation |
But, airplanes like Cubs, Champs, and Taylorcrafts have small steel strips
probably .020 or less, and 1/2" wide to hold the gas tanks in. The ends are
just bent with a hole in them (the champ has a formed end so that the bolt
points in the same line as the strap) I've got a bunch of them somewhere.
Stainless is probably easiest, just have someone shear a bunch of strips,
you can always use them, but 1" sounds a little large.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel tank installation
>
> Hi Sam,
>
> Most planes use 1" wide stainless steel straps .035" thick to hold down
the
> fuel tank. The straps should be padded with neoprene or wool felt so they
> don't chafe against the tank. ACS sells the straps at about 10 cents a
> foot. They also sell the anti-chafe padding. You should try to
> iincorporate a turnbuckle or some other means to apply tension to the
strap
> to make sure it really holds the tank down, even under negative g's.
>
> Jack
> NX899JP (also a reserved number)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> Marinucci
> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 5:14 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel tank installation
>
>
> Boy, I hope no one else quits this group..... I'd better ask this question
> before there's nobody left to answer it. Just kidding of course, but
> seriously, as Mike Cuy said,this is a great group of guys and it would be
a
> shame to lose any of their expertise if more guys bail out.
> Now for my question: I'm installing a J-3 fuel tank in the fuselage and
am
> wondering about the hold down straps. What thickness (gage) should I use?
> Can I use 16 gage galvanized steel or do they have to be 4130? I can get
the
> galvanized stuff locally but would have to order the 4130 steel which
would
> set me back a week or so. I'd like to get the tank installed this week if
> possible. What about the adjustment on the straps? How are the ends setup
so
> the straps can be tightened to secure the tank?
> I've been at this project for about three years now and at this point
the
> fuselage is on the gear, the wing center section is just about done (I
just
> need to make a cover or hatch), the tail surfaces are completed, 30 wing
> ribs are done, and I made four I-beam wing spars. My wife keeps asking me
> when will it be finished..... my standard answer is "three more years
> Honey". I've been saying that for the past three years.
> Sam Marinucci
> N115SM (reserved number)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Horn fabrication |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Horn Fabrication |
Chris,
My concern exactly. While I'm good at whacking things with a hammer,
the tool marks are unacceptable.
I'll be using this method, thanks.
Also for what it's worth I wasn't thinking and put the two 3/8" bushings
in the control tube first. Now I'm going to have to try to "thread" the
aileron horn on later or build a new tube.
Additionally it looks as though my front seat back "V" is to close to
the tube. I think the lower part of the wood "V" will need to be carved
out for clearance and even then the tube will need to be raised at the
bearings front and back to go over the middle ash strut. Anyone else
have this problem?
Don't know how this came about, Rats! Head scratching time. We'll see
how it goes...
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Horn Fabrication |
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Neal
To: piet list
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horn Fabrication
Chris,
Also for what it's worth I wasn't thinking and put the two 3/8"
bushings
in the control tube first. Now I'm going to have to try to "thread"
the
aileron horn on later or build a new tube.
Additionally it looks as though my front seat back "V" is to close to
the tube. I think the lower part of the wood "V" will need to be
carved
out for clearance and even then the tube will need to be raised at the
bearings front and back to go over the middle ash strut. Anyone else
have this problem?
Don't know how this came about, Rats! Head scratching time. We'll
see
how it goes...
Larry
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Right Larry, I put blocks under the torque bearings to clear ash & put
bushings in the control tube. The size of the V's & the leg cut outs
have to be played with.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry
Neal
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More learning
Larry and list
Quite a long time ago I was welding some 4130 together. Immediately after
I
finished the cluster I picked up the part, pushed back my goggles and
rotated the part to examine it. The air of course moves in the open tube and
carries fresh oxygen down the tube to meet the hot oil vapours.
(left over from the shipping preservative) BOOM Flash!!! I almost got a free
hair cut! Now I wait until the red colour goes away before I move the joint.
Never look down the bore of a loaded gun!
John Mc
Brazing the two 3/8 tubes into the 7/8 control tube went well as I
remembered how, which surprised me. I forgot however, that rags that
have ever seen or heard of oil smolder for a while and then catch fire.
Holy cow! Pay attention and clean up your act before welding and
brazing. I turned around to find a rag used to reposition the tube going
up in flames and starting to take my favorite miter box up with it!
Larry
More careful with fire in Dallas...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
| Subject: | Power planers for woodworking |
Learned something working on the Tiger Moth horizontal stabilizer this
weekend.
The inside surface (along the length) of the laminated leading edge spar
looked rough. I looked closer to find that it was milled into small ridges
like the spacer in cardboard boxes. I scraped the glue and finish of the end
of the laminations to see that the laminated pieces were all milled like
that, and they fit into each other perfectly. This greatly increased the
gluing surface area. Neat idea if you have the tooling, time, and don't have
T-88!
Just be sure your joints fit well and are clean cut or scraped. Preferably
not sanded; and that you do not spare the glue. The excess can be scraped of
if needs be.
I am getting to like the simplicity of Pietenpol's design more and more as I
dream about working on it and work on the Tiger.
If there is any one thing a Brit engineer hates, it is unnecessary
simplicity!
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kent
Hallsten
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Power planers for woodworking
I know from a discussion in December that good carbide saw blades on the
tablesaw will leave a good finish for glue, but is it necessary to get a
glass smooth surface that a power planer gives? Would a hand block plane
put on a good glue surface after table sawing?
One of my blades is 200 tooth blade for the table saw, and it's certainly
not a ripping blade, more for cabinetry type work I guess. I'm wondering if
that blade is good for ripping longerons and spar material. I have a 40 or
50 tooth combo carbide blade too.
I remember Del M. and Chris B. have planers, and like them, but how to get a
good surface for gluing laminations if you don't have one?
What say you, Doug Bryant? You have used lumberyard wood exclusively,
haven't you? What do you use to get a good glue surface after ripping those
2 x 4's?
For those that have planers , have you planed wood with T-88 glue? Someone
in a post from 1997 mentioned T-88 would hurt the blades.
Kent Hallsten, the worry-wort
Oklahoma City
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NormDecou(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Spruce strips used in Tail section |
Thanks for the advice Doug,
I was just trying to get the most out of my bargain bundles. I bought four
of these bundles from ACS and the value and quality is excellent. I was
hoping to save some of my .500 wood for ribs. I can probably find somewhere
else to use the .420 stock. I was hoping that these were just used to hold
the fabric off of the main beams although after giving it some thought after
your response that is an important job also.
Thanks Again,
Norm Decou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Spruce strips used in Tail section |
Norm, I would use the .420 for the ribs, and rip the rest of your rib
capstrips to match. This is the only plane I know of with such wide
capstrips on the ribs. Even a Pitts Special only uses 1/4 x 1/4" capstrips.
If I build another Piet, I will probably shave some weight off the ribs.
For that matter, losing .0.080" off the width of the tail ribs probably
wouldn't hurt either (don't however make the rib caps any thinner - that's
where most of the stiffness comes from), and would definitely help the
Piet's tendency towards tail-heaviness. Remember a pound saved at the tail
is like saving 8 pounds at the firewall, if you're trying to correct the
balance.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
NormDecou(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce strips used in Tail section
Thanks for the advice Doug,
I was just trying to get the most out of my bargain bundles. I bought four
of these bundles from ACS and the value and quality is excellent. I was
hoping to save some of my .500 wood for ribs. I can probably find somewhere
else to use the .420 stock. I was hoping that these were just used to hold
the fabric off of the main beams although after giving it some thought after
your response that is an important job also.
Thanks Again,
Norm Decou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Horn Fabrication |
Larry, I made my aileron control horn from 1/8" 4130 in two halves then
welded them to the tube . I just cut out a 7/8" half circle in each then cut
out the 5/8" gap for the front pully after welding the halves to the tube.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Neal" <llneal2(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horn Fabrication
>
> Chris,
>
> My concern exactly. While I'm good at whacking things with a hammer,
> the tool marks are unacceptable.
> I'll be using this method, thanks.
>
> Also for what it's worth I wasn't thinking and put the two 3/8" bushings
> in the control tube first. Now I'm going to have to try to "thread" the
> aileron horn on later or build a new tube.
>
> Additionally it looks as though my front seat back "V" is to close to
> the tube. I think the lower part of the wood "V" will need to be carved
> out for clearance and even then the tube will need to be raised at the
> bearings front and back to go over the middle ash strut. Anyone else
> have this problem?
>
> Don't know how this came about, Rats! Head scratching time. We'll see
> how it goes...
>
> Larry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
That is not how Por-15 literature reads (at least now). Here is
direct info from my latest order.
POR-15 is a rust-preventative paint designed for application directly
on rusted or seasoned metal surfaces. It dries to a rock-hark,
non-porous finish that won't chip, crakc, or peeel, and it prvents
rust from re-occurrring by protecting metal from further exposure to
moisture. .. POR-15 is sensitive to UV light (sun) and must be
topcoated for prolonged exposure to sunlight. POR-15 is cured and
strengthened by exposure to moisture and will dry faster under
extreme humidity, but moderate to dry atmoshpheric conditions are
most desirable wehn applying this product.
Q: Can I paint over POR-15 with other paints?
Absolutely. POR-15 will accept all paints, including lacquer-based
paints. POR-15 Tie-Coat Primer is the best prime coat to use before
topcoating POR-15.
Q:Must I paint over POR-15 to make it last?
No, but POR-15 has an ultra-violet sensitivity and must be topcoated
if continually exposed to sunlight.
Q:Will the sun destroy my POR-15 coating if I don't topcoat it?
No, your POR-15 protection will remain, but the sun will cahnge its
appearance cosmetically. That's why we recommend you topcoat it.
Just an FYI
Kirk
>
>Some time ago(last year, I think) there
>was a post about POR15, a rust proofing
>primer. I bought some. The information with
>it stressed that a primer is only there to
>make paint stick. All primers have to be
>painted over as primer is porous and causes
>moisture to wick in. This came up somewhere
>else too, SA, Experimenter, Kitplanes maybe?
>I used to think of primer as paint before this.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <doug413(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stick with the list guys.........
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Horn Fabrication |
Great!
I also realized that one might jig the halves together on the tube and
weld halves and tube in one shot. Might make getting accurate right
angles of horn to tube easier
Lotsa good advice here. I'll also use Mike's suggestion and use wood
pillow blocks under the bearings. This will raise the tube and I can
sand the blocks to the right angle to keep the bearings from binding..
Larry
Mark wrote:
>
>Larry, I made my aileron control horn from 1/8" 4130 in two halves then
>welded them to the tube . I just cut out a 7/8" half circle in each then cut
>out the 5/8" gap for the front pully after welding the halves to the tube.
>Mark
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry Neal" <llneal2(at)earthlink.net>
>To: "piet list"
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horn Fabrication
>
>
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>My concern exactly. While I'm good at whacking things with a hammer,
>>the tool marks are unacceptable.
>>I'll be using this method, thanks.
>>
>>Also for what it's worth I wasn't thinking and put the two 3/8" bushings
>>in the control tube first. Now I'm going to have to try to "thread" the
>>aileron horn on later or build a new tube.
>>
>>Additionally it looks as though my front seat back "V" is to close to
>>the tube. I think the lower part of the wood "V" will need to be carved
>>out for clearance and even then the tube will need to be raised at the
>>bearings front and back to go over the middle ash strut. Anyone else
>>have this problem?
>>
>>Don't know how this came about, Rats! Head scratching time. We'll see
>>how it goes...
>>
>>Larry
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Tailwheel assembly |
Gene,
Thanks for looking at the pictures of my plane posted on
www.matronics.com/photoshare and more specifically the tailwheel
assembly.
To try and answer your questions:
The tailwheel is a 3.5" unit purchased from Wicks, part # TWNP-3.5
The Fork is a welded up unit, using .100" 4130 material. The prongs of
the fork are welded to a short piece of 1"x 2" square tubing, sized to
fit the width of the tailwheel. At the juncture of the apex of the
trailing links of the support "V" that Pietenpol shows on the plan,
there is a plate welded which connects the tubes. Between the 1"x2"
tubing and the plate I put a ball bearing thrust washer so as to take
the vertical loads. The swivel axle is made of a short length of 1/2"
drill rod working in a flanged Boston oilite bushing and the top of the
axle is threaded for a 1/2" castillated nut. The trailing links (since
the photo was taken) have been bent so the the swivel axle is slightly
trailing when the plane is at rest. Surrounding the swivel axle with
the nut on top is welded a 1 5/8" OD x 3/4" long piece of tubing. This
serves as the lower socket for the tailwheel spring. The upper spring
socket is of the same material and welded to a small plate which is
bolted to the airframe. In order that the spring doesn't pop out of the
sockets, there are tabs welded to both sockets so that a short length of
1/8" cable is attached so that the rebound of the spring is restricted.
The horns are also made of .100" 4130 steel. These attach as one piece
on top of the fork and have 41/2" span on each side of the fork. There
are several holes drilled in each horn so that the throw of the
tailwheel can be adjusted. From the horns, the control cables go to the
rudder bar.
The unit is very light, and since there is very little weight on the
tail of the plane, it is easy to simply pick up the tail and move the
plane around, so the tailwheel assembly has no breakaway capability.
I hope this answers your questions, feel free to call or E-mail me if I
can give you more information.
John Dilatush, now making the prop so I can go flying!
dilatush(at)amigo.net
phone (719) 539-3991 Salida, Colorado!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick with the list guys......... |
In a message dated 3/9/02 6:41:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bconoly(at)earthlink.net writes:
> Doug. Is that just a common auto primer such as one would get at a auto
> supply store? Heretofore I have used regular old spray primers for landing
> gear, controls, etc. But they are easily inspected and accessible. I
> guess
> I am sensitive to Spar fittings etc that you cant get to to check the
> condition easily. I THINK I am feeling better about just using an
> automotive primer and be done with it.
>
>
Bert,
I just use the common stuff from the hardware store. It holds up fine
especially inside the wing where it is not subjuct to any elements.
Ofcourse there will be inspection rings where the fittings are. A friend is
building a Piet here and he has powder coat equipment which is another way
to get permanent finishes. Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spruce strips used in Tail section |
In a message dated 3/10/02 10:49:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
NormDecou(at)aol.com writes:
> Thanks for the advice Doug,
> I was just trying to get the most out of my bargain bundles. I bought four
>
> of these bundles from ACS and the value and quality is excellent. I was
> hoping to save some of my .500 wood for ribs. I can probably find
> somewhere
> else to use the .420 stock. I was hoping that these were just used to hold
>
> the fabric off of the main beams although after giving it some thought
> after
> your response that is an important job also.
> Thanks Again,
> Norm Decou
>
>
>
Norm,
I make my ribs from cedar. I got the idea from Charlie Rubeck. Cedar makes
a nice rib. I also used some Bargain Bags from AS&S and consumed it down to
the saw dust by the end of the project. Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
---- Original Message -----
From: Michael Brusilow
To: dilatush(at)amigo.net
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 4:09 PM
Subject: radiator
Hi John:
Great pictures on the Piet group. I wonder if you could help a
friend of mine.
He has a completed Scout. He finds the top mounted radiator very
restrictive. He wants to install an underslung radiator.
Do you have a description or a print of your radiator installation?
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
Mike,
Thanks for your kind words about the pictures. There is no print of
the radiator installation and of course the plane has not yet flown. I
am just in the process of building the prop now.
There is no guarantee that the radiator will work OK with the prop
installed. The only testing that I have done is to run the engine using
an ordinary box type household fan blowing on the radiator and the
engine appears to cool OK up to about 1500 rpm, then the temperature
starts to go over redline (210 degrees F). I am hopeful that with the
prop on, it will run at about 195 degrees.
The radiator is made of a 1970 or so school bus heater core. It has
a face measurment of about 21"x 6.5" and is made up of 3 rows of, as I
remember 18 fins each per inch stock. There may be a problem with
excess fin density, and of course, it has no air flow ducting. But this
is the way most radiators were made in the OX-5 and 6 era of the 20"s.
The inlet and outlets were changed from 3/4" to 1-1/8" so as to connect
with the engine pump and thermostat housings. The radiator is hung from
the firewall by two lengths of 1.25" x 1/25" aluminum angles.
Since this installation is a "cut, fit, and try" operation, I would
suggest that your friend wait until I have flown the plane and
thoroughly tested it under field conditions. Contact me again in a
couple of months, then maybe I'll be somewhat smarter!
Cheers,
John (Blunder Engineering Co.) NX114D
Salida, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wizzard187(at)aol.com |
Pieters, Back in the 60s I had a PT 23 with a 220 Cont. that had a
centrifical starter on it and it was ablast to start. Has anyone ever tried
to build one for a 65 or 85 cont. I know weight is a big problem but a
starter, battery and generator adds to about 50 pounds. I have a 75
cont. - 9 which used a starter that drove on the face of the gear not the
outside edge. I know this is probably nuts but can you imagine starting
your piet at Broadhead with a crank. Any comments are welcome.
A Iowa farmer
PS We had some kind of centrifical starter on the old cream seperator.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
Ray,
I've never met you and I don't know you so all I can gather from the type of
person you are is from you actions on this list. If I have you wrong,
please understand.
Your lightheartedness and jovial manner on this list are irresponsible.
This is not an social arena, it is educational. There already exists too
much confusion in the complicated endeavor of building an aircraft without
you generating misinformation to amuse yourself. Please understand this and
take it to heart.
I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't appreciate
this and are oblivious to your actions, but you've been here, corresponded
with us, and still continue add ridiculous posts to "have a little fun with
the straight and narrow squareheads on the list". So I say: you do what you
do not that you don't know, but that you don't care. You don't care that
you are screwing up one of the most informative and one-of-a-kind lists on
the net.
Where else is any of us going to go to get this type of information? Not
for just Pietenpols, but there is no other tube and fabric type group that
is even close.
I don't consider myself to be an expert, like a few that have already left.
But I'm not a novice and I can hold my own when it comes to certain topics
which kind of puts me into a middle class on the group. What really worries
me is how many of us have left. When a Chris B. leaves, you know about it.
When a bunch of Robert H. type lurkers disappear, the list is equally hurt.
For the last year, I've been glued to this list. Now, I'm so tired of the
crap that I'm ready to unsubscribe.
So, please try to focus on the educational aspects of this list. Please
state clearly whether what your trying is tried and true in your area or
it's something experimental. We can all learn from each other's experience.
If you're cracking a joke, add a (haha) or :) so we'll all know. Please
NEVER add misinformation as a joke. Add the text "do not archiv*" to
anything that should not be archived. But by now, you should know all of
this.
IF you don't care about any, are enjoying the damage you are causing, and
would rather just F*** around, please GET THE HELL OUT.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Well said, Robert. I'm about ready to leave myself if this idiot keeps
sending out his Bull****. If he is honestly wanting advice, then he should
take the advice he gets. If not, then he just just shut up. I'm furious
that his kind of drivel has cost us somebody like Chris Bobka. I had hoped
that Craig Wilcox had straightened him out, but apparently not.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Haines
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ray
Ray,
I've never met you and I don't know you so all I can gather from the type of
person you are is from you actions on this list. If I have you wrong,
please understand.
Your lightheartedness and jovial manner on this list are irresponsible.
This is not an social arena, it is educational. There already exists too
much confusion in the complicated endeavor of building an aircraft without
you generating misinformation to amuse yourself. Please understand this and
take it to heart.
I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't appreciate
this and are oblivious to your actions, but you've been here, corresponded
with us, and still continue add ridiculous posts to "have a little fun with
the straight and narrow squareheads on the list". So I say: you do what you
do not that you don't know, but that you don't care. You don't care that
you are screwing up one of the most informative and one-of-a-kind lists on
the net.
Where else is any of us going to go to get this type of information? Not
for just Pietenpols, but there is no other tube and fabric type group that
is even close.
I don't consider myself to be an expert, like a few that have already left.
But I'm not a novice and I can hold my own when it comes to certain topics
which kind of puts me into a middle class on the group. What really worries
me is how many of us have left. When a Chris B. leaves, you know about it.
When a bunch of Robert H. type lurkers disappear, the list is equally hurt.
For the last year, I've been glued to this list. Now, I'm so tired of the
crap that I'm ready to unsubscribe.
So, please try to focus on the educational aspects of this list. Please
state clearly whether what your trying is tried and true in your area or
it's something experimental. We can all learn from each other's experience.
If you're cracking a joke, add a (haha) or :) so we'll all know. Please
NEVER add misinformation as a joke. Add the text "do not archiv*" to
anything that should not be archived. But by now, you should know all of
this.
IF you don't care about any, are enjoying the damage you are causing, and
would rather just F*** around, please GET THE HELL OUT.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Losing Chris Bobka |
It is shameful for anyone to think it is humorous to throw out hare-brained ideas
to get a rise out of others and then insult knowledgeable contributors when
they freely share their experiences.
I know Chris Bobka well. He is the tech counselor that Dale Johnson and I are working
with on our Pietenpol.
You will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable person so willing to share
his expertise.
Chris is a CFI, ATP, A&P, MBA who drives DC-9's for a major carrier.
He re-builds, restores and maintains his own aircraft and never fails to assist
anyone who asks for his help.
He became very upset when the term "square head" was directed at him.
He is taking a hiatus from the list but has assured me he will be back in a week
or two.
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
Ph. 612 721-6235
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
I've been hanging out here for quite some time
back when Steve E. was running the list.
I hate to see good contributors drop off the list.
Hopefully they will come back
Myself I fix the hare brained ideas very easily.
I use the DELETE key and go to the next worthwhile post
BTW The wife and I went to Sikeston,MO this wknd to Lamberts for some of
them good throwed rolls
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Losing Chris Bobka
>
> It is shameful for anyone to think it is humorous to throw out
hare-brained ideas to get a rise out of others and then insult knowledgeable
contributors when they freely share their experiences.
> I know Chris Bobka well. He is the tech counselor that Dale Johnson and I
are working with on our Pietenpol.
> You will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable person so willing to
share his expertise.
> Chris is a CFI, ATP, A&P, MBA who drives DC-9's for a major carrier.
> He re-builds, restores and maintains his own aircraft and never fails to
assist anyone who asks for his help.
> He became very upset when the term "square head" was directed at him.
> He is taking a hiatus from the list but has assured me he will be back in
a week or two.
>
> Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
> Ph. 612 721-6235
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ws133b341" <ws133b341(at)cox.net> |
I felt compelled to add my voice to those who have been saddened to see
good and obviously knowledgeable people like Chris Bobka driven away
from the list by clowns like Ray who waste bandwidth with their "Home
Depot engineering" nonsense, wise-ass comments, and irrelevant rambling
about the state of public administration in Belize. Maybe Ray has a
problem with authority. Maybe Ray has a personality defect that
compells him to attempt to make himself feel large by belittling others.
Maybe Ray is just foolish and hard-headed. Who can tell?
At any rate, you've all wasted far too much time with him, in my
opinion. He had his chance to receive the thoughtful advice you
cheerfully offer to all who are serious about constructing an airworthy
craft; he has proven unworthy. Most email programs have an option to
block messages from specified addresses, and send them right into the
trash. If you are using Outlook Express, it's under: Tools; Message
Rules; Blocked Senders List. Ignore him, and maybe he will go away.
The worst part will be if he actually completes an aircraft using his
substandard materials and processes, and kills himself, or worse, some
innocent soul, thereby giving those who would restrict experimental
aviation that much more ammunition. But, you can't stop him, so you
might as well forget about it.
Ted Tuckerman (square head prig, I suppose, and proud of it)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan James" <MADjames(at)theknapp.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Progress report |
Hi Janica
Congratulations on getting the go-ahead to build a Pietenpol. If you do come
to England in the summer, let me know when and I'll do my best to make sure
you see a few Piets. So far the only meetings we have planned are 19th May
and 15th September (Battle of Britain day) but we are also planning a few
Piet BBQ's - dates to be advised.
There a couple of UK sites that are worth watching for Piet news:
www.solent-strut.co.uk and www.aiircamper.co.uk where you'll also find news
of a new aviation diesel motor.
Regards, Alan James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannica Wunge" <jannicaw(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress report
>
> Hello Pieters
> I have finally received my permission to build an Air Camper from the
> Swedish EAA and the document is now behind glass and a frame on my
workshop
> wall. In other words, I am in business and I am currently working on the
> wing ribs.
> Last week I collected most of the wood needed for the aeroplane from a
small
> sawmill. The man who runs the sawmill used to produce balsa sheets for the
> model hobby trade but he has more and more turned to saw wood for
> homebuilders. He has cut most of the wood I need from Swedish fir for
around
> 700 USD. It is very convenient since he cuts it to the dimensions I need
in
> inches, ready to use. Otherwise this is a strictly metric country. He is
> also familiar with the wood requirements for building aeroplanes so I
expect
> to be able to use most of it. Of course, in the end, it is up to me to
> decide what wood to use and what to discard. But on the other hand, this
man
> knows more about wood than I could learn in a lifetime.
>
> For a while I was thinking in terms of using a Subaru EA81 engine for the
> aeroplane and I was actually on my way to buy an old Subaru car to get it.
> But as things turned out I changed my mind and never bought it.
> Now my dreams are in the direction of diesel engines instead. I found the
> DAIR 100 on the web and I think it would be a great power source for the
Air
> Camper. Unfortunately, I understand that the company has economical
> problems, but lets hope that they come into production. Go on and have a
> look at: http://www.dair.co.uk/
>
> Here in Sweden the winter is coming to an end now and the snow is slowly
> melting away. The days are becoming longer and spring is around the
corner.
> Besides the Air Camper I am also working on the annual overhaul of our
> Ventus motorglider and I hope to be flying it again around Easter. I have
> also started to plan for our summer vacation and maybe we will go to
England
> to have a look at their ships if they have any gathering around July or
> August. Lown slow.
> Jannica in Sweden
>
>
> Hmta MSN Explorer kostnadsfritt p http://explorer.msn.se/intl.asp
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | back to serious business |
I think we have wasted enought time on Ray, let's move on, please. I
have a question, it has always been my understanding that most everyone
is using the Cub rear struts for their Piet struts, rather than the Cub
forward struts. Is this correct? I have two sets of each and have been
asked for the forward struts, but I want to make sure I am keeping the
correct ones.
Also, when any one of you has moved the wing aft for CG purposes, does
the length of the cabane struts need to change, or does the wing move
aft and remain at the correct incidence (seems like it would, just want
to make sure before I go ahead and weld up my cabane struts.
Jack Phillips has cleared up my confusion on the wooden landing gear
that I asked about earlier, and anyone who is contemplating a wooden
gear needs to hear his advice before building. You will save a lot of
head scratching that we both went through.
Thanks
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
Ray - soon as i get a chance I'll check my Piet plans for CG. Generally, it
is described as either a percentage of the chord, or so many inches aft of a
datum point. I'll look it up.
Seems like you have the list stirred up again. Helpful hint - if you have a
valid question or building tip, go ahead and post it. Even with the
animosity toward you, you'll get a couple of honest replies. But try to not
stir up quite so much dust that everyone leaves the room.
Enjoyed my visit to your place the other day. Don't believe that I've ever
seen a wooden airplane built out in the open like that. Do you cover the
work when you aren't working on it?
Did a bit of research on using the foam to fill the spaces between the
gussets. Generally, folks leave them open, but cover the fuselage/wings
with fabric and paint. The stuff is actually fairly waterproof, especially
if you cover the cockpits and/or hanger the airplane. Do remember to put at
least one drain grommet in each bay, at the low point. You are using strong
enough building techniques, and the material seems to be good.
Thanks again for hosting me!
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | back to serious business |
Gene,
You and I seem to think a lot alike. I mounted my centersection a couple of
weeks ago and weighed the fuselage, tail and centersection as it was. I
then calculated and estimated the weights of all the other components and
figured out that I will need my engine mount about 2" longer than plans and
the wing to shift aft of vertical by almost 3". Then I got to worrying
about the change in incidence of the wing as it moves aft. Since the rear
struts are shorter than the fornt ones, the angle must change as it moves.
I worried a little bit and then decided to lay it out in AutoCAD on my
computer. I found that with the inch difference in the struts, the
incidence is NOT the 2 degrees claimed on the plans. It is 2.010 degrees
(big deal). By shifting the wing aft 3" the angle of incidence changed from
2.010 to 2.030 degrees. In order to keep it the same as before moving the
wing, I will need to make my rear struts 0.010" longer than I have made
them.
The above is just to put your mind at ease. There is no difference in
incidence for all practical purposes. There is more than 0.010" slop around
the bolts - even with reamed bolt holes.
Thanks for the kind words.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Subject: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
I think we have wasted enought time on Ray, let's move on, please. I
have a question, it has always been my understanding that most everyone
is using the Cub rear struts for their Piet struts, rather than the Cub
forward struts. Is this correct? I have two sets of each and have been
asked for the forward struts, but I want to make sure I am keeping the
correct ones.
Also, when any one of you has moved the wing aft for CG purposes, does
the length of the cabane struts need to change, or does the wing move
aft and remain at the correct incidence (seems like it would, just want
to make sure before I go ahead and weld up my cabane struts.
Jack Phillips has cleared up my confusion on the wooden landing gear
that I asked about earlier, and anyone who is contemplating a wooden
gear needs to hear his advice before building. You will save a lot of
head scratching that we both went through.
Thanks
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Free illustrated book on how a Piet is built |
Pieters -
Matt Paxton, a nice guy and an Avweb contributor, who is a newspaper and
magazine publisher in Lexington, VA, is building a Pietenpol. He has
written a very well done series of articles about how he is going about it,
and AVweb is publishing these on the internet. His latest is about
building the fuselage, and it is article number 4. The first three are
also available on the net, so you can download them to print.
He also has an article on his visit to Brodhead (I missed him there, darn).
Tune in AVweb at http://www.avweb.com/toc/homeblts.html and see the whole
smorgasbord.
Yes, Matt is a piet-list lurker. He has something of value, and his series
is really comprehensive. And all at a Piet scrounger price -
free! Thanks, Matt.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: back to serious business |
Gene
Most of the Piets out ther that I have seen flying use 4 of the rear struts.
I have a set with the larger front pair and still havent decided to use
them. They are 3 pounds heavier than the rear I may take the front pair to
SNF and try to trade or sell them.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
>
>
> I think we have wasted enought time on Ray, let's move on, please. I
> have a question, it has always been my understanding that most everyone
> is using the Cub rear struts for their Piet struts, rather than the Cub
> forward struts. Is this correct? I have two sets of each and have been
> asked for the forward struts, but I want to make sure I am keeping the
> correct ones.
>
> Also, when any one of you has moved the wing aft for CG purposes, does
> the length of the cabane struts need to change, or does the wing move
> aft and remain at the correct incidence (seems like it would, just want
> to make sure before I go ahead and weld up my cabane struts.
>
> Jack Phillips has cleared up my confusion on the wooden landing gear
> that I asked about earlier, and anyone who is contemplating a wooden
> gear needs to hear his advice before building. You will save a lot of
> head scratching that we both went through.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Gene
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | streamline tubing |
Hello, low 'n' slow fliers-
I think I may have mentioned this before, but here goes again. There is yet
another alternative for your streamline tubing wing struts (or cabane
struts, or any others). Say you want the strength of steel with welded
fittings but don't want to pay for streamline tubing. Well, build your
struts out of plain round 4130 tube. Make the ends anything you want...
fishmouth into plates, flatten the ends and drill for bolting, weld in
adjustable clevis fittings, however you want to do it, using round tubing,
then get some of the extruded, paintable plastic streamline fairings that
the ultralight/light plane guys use. It slips on over the tubing. Cuts
easily, you can shape the ends anyway you want to make them fit your ends,
and you can glue the ends or other pieces together to fit your needs.
One source is Stream-Line in North Port, FL; email streamlineco(at)yahoo.com
and website is at http://streamline.8k.com/ they have a set of four, 8'
sections of their "small" fairing material (fits up to 1-1/4" dia. round
tubing) for about $170, or about $5.31 per foot.
Like I said; it's just one more way to skin the cat. Maybe not for
everybody, but some expressed hesitancy at using aluminum extrusions for
this application, so go ahead and use steel... but streamline it.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, Oregon
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol lift struts and center section geometry... |
Gene,
Regarding the use of J-3 Cub rear struts for all four lift struts
on a Pietenpol, I recall a nice Pietenpol built during the late
1960's that used J-3 rear struts exclusively. It had a 3-piece
wing and jury struts and, if I remember correctly, it was built
by two fellows somewhere in the New England states. One
of them visited Edmonton, Alberta and I met him at our EAA
Chapter meeting. I cannot recall his name, but there is a pre-
cedent for this arrangement. A flight report by one of its buil-
ders (not the one I met) stated that it had been looped and
spun (Ugh!).
Typically, front lift struts are of a larger section than the rear
ones and J-3 rear strut size may be on the slight side for the
front struts of a Piet. Perhaps Jack Phillips could check this
for you. Just because it has been done doesn't necessarily
mean that there is a sufficient margin of safety.
My Piet uses Aeronca front strut material (very close to the J-3
size and shape) for the front struts and Taylorcraft rear strut
material for the rear struts. The center section struts are made
from Aeronca rear strut material which is too heavy for this ap-
plication. I used what was available and what I could afford at
the time. A compromise which added weight, I guess. But my
airplane is solid with no hint of being flimsy, possibly because
of the stiffer rig with jury struts (not mounted at the midpoint of
the lift strut length). Nevertheless, at 630 lbs. empty, it still isn't
exceptionally heavy.
Thanks to Jack Phillips for investigating the incidence change
when the wing is moved aft for balance. I suspected that any
change would be small, but was too lazy to figure it out. I guess
the problem bothered Jack more than it bothered me because
he took the trouble to investigate it. Now I can relax! Another ex-
ample of why this list is so valuable to all of us through the shar-
ing of information.
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) in chilly Camrose, Alberta.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
or you could use round tubing and streamline it with balsa, which is exactly
what I would do if I didn't have these Cub struts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
>
> Hello, low 'n' slow fliers-
>
> I think I may have mentioned this before, but here goes again. There is
yet
> another alternative for your streamline tubing wing struts (or cabane
> struts, or any others). Say you want the strength of steel with welded
> fittings but don't want to pay for streamline tubing. Well, build your
> struts out of plain round 4130 tube. Make the ends anything you want...
> fishmouth into plates, flatten the ends and drill for bolting, weld in
> adjustable clevis fittings, however you want to do it, using round tubing,
> then get some of the extruded, paintable plastic streamline fairings that
> the ultralight/light plane guys use. It slips on over the tubing. Cuts
> easily, you can shape the ends anyway you want to make them fit your ends,
> and you can glue the ends or other pieces together to fit your needs.
>
> One source is Stream-Line in North Port, FL; email streamlineco(at)yahoo.com
> and website is at http://streamline.8k.com/ they have a set of four, 8'
> sections of their "small" fairing material (fits up to 1-1/4" dia. round
> tubing) for about $170, or about $5.31 per foot.
>
> Like I said; it's just one more way to skin the cat. Maybe not for
> everybody, but some expressed hesitancy at using aluminum extrusions for
> this application, so go ahead and use steel... but streamline it.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, Oregon
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: back to serious business |
Gene,
The smaller, rear struts are the correct ones to use. (Save the big ones for guys
building Waco's).
The length of the cabane struts do not need to be changed when they are angled
back. A lot of builders will lengthen them by two inches to make it easier to
get in.
Greg Cardinal
>>> rambog(at)erols.com 03/11/02 06:51PM >>>
I think we have wasted enought time on Ray, let's move on, please. I
have a question, it has always been my understanding that most everyone
is using the Cub rear struts for their Piet struts, rather than the Cub
forward struts. Is this correct? I have two sets of each and have been
asked for the forward struts, but I want to make sure I am keeping the
correct ones.
Also, when any one of you has moved the wing aft for CG purposes, does
the length of the cabane struts need to change, or does the wing move
aft and remain at the correct incidence (seems like it would, just want
to make sure before I go ahead and weld up my cabane struts.
Jack Phillips has cleared up my confusion on the wooden landing gear
that I asked about earlier, and anyone who is contemplating a wooden
gear needs to hear his advice before building. You will save a lot of
head scratching that we both went through.
Thanks
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | back to serious business |
Dick,
As I told Gene Rambo, I think I want to use the front Cub struts on my Piet.
I have a full set of Cub struts, and would be happy to trade a pair of rear
struts for a pair of front struts. If you are going to SNF will you be
passing through or close to Raleigh, NC?
I have not run any stress analysis to see if the front struts are required,
I just think they look a little better (not as spindly) as the rear struts.
Of course, the front struts are more trouble - you've got to cut off and
grind smooth the fairlead attachments that Piper welded on them for the
aileron cables. I agree that the front struts are definitely heavier, and
probably unjustified. I just think it looks better with all four struts the
same size.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Navratril
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
Gene
Most of the Piets out ther that I have seen flying use 4 of the rear struts.
I have a set with the larger front pair and still havent decided to use
them. They are 3 pounds heavier than the rear I may take the front pair to
SNF and try to trade or sell them.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
>
>
> I think we have wasted enought time on Ray, let's move on, please. I
> have a question, it has always been my understanding that most everyone
> is using the Cub rear struts for their Piet struts, rather than the Cub
> forward struts. Is this correct? I have two sets of each and have been
> asked for the forward struts, but I want to make sure I am keeping the
> correct ones.
>
> Also, when any one of you has moved the wing aft for CG purposes, does
> the length of the cabane struts need to change, or does the wing move
> aft and remain at the correct incidence (seems like it would, just want
> to make sure before I go ahead and weld up my cabane struts.
>
> Jack Phillips has cleared up my confusion on the wooden landing gear
> that I asked about earlier, and anyone who is contemplating a wooden
> gear needs to hear his advice before building. You will save a lot of
> head scratching that we both went through.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Gene
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
would you use 1-1/4" 4130 for both struts?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
>
> or you could use round tubing and streamline it with balsa, which is
exactly
> what I would do if I didn't have these Cub struts.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
>
>
>
> >
> > Hello, low 'n' slow fliers-
> >
> > I think I may have mentioned this before, but here goes again. There is
> yet
> > another alternative for your streamline tubing wing struts (or cabane
> > struts, or any others). Say you want the strength of steel with welded
> > fittings but don't want to pay for streamline tubing. Well, build your
> > struts out of plain round 4130 tube. Make the ends anything you want...
> > fishmouth into plates, flatten the ends and drill for bolting, weld in
> > adjustable clevis fittings, however you want to do it, using round
tubing,
> > then get some of the extruded, paintable plastic streamline fairings
that
> > the ultralight/light plane guys use. It slips on over the tubing. Cuts
> > easily, you can shape the ends anyway you want to make them fit your
ends,
> > and you can glue the ends or other pieces together to fit your needs.
> >
> > One source is Stream-Line in North Port, FL; email
streamlineco(at)yahoo.com
> > and website is at http://streamline.8k.com/ they have a set of four, 8'
> > sections of their "small" fairing material (fits up to 1-1/4" dia. round
> > tubing) for about $170, or about $5.31 per foot.
> >
> > Like I said; it's just one more way to skin the cat. Maybe not for
> > everybody, but some expressed hesitancy at using aluminum extrusions for
> > this application, so go ahead and use steel... but streamline it.
> >
> > Oscar Zuniga
> > Medford, Oregon
> > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
Oscar Zuniga pointed out:
> then get some of the extruded, paintable plastic streamline fairings that
> the ultralight/light plane guys use. It slips on over the tubing.
As yet another alternative, a friend who was building a Heath Parasol
did pretty much the same thing by gluing rigid foam to the tubing,
sanding it to shape, and wrapping it in the thin, coarse fiberglass used
these days as joint tape in hanging drywall. (There are two types; he
used the one without its own adhesive.) Finally, he slathered on a
thin layer of epoxy. Stiffened things up amazingly, without adding
much weight.
Owen Davies
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | streamline tubing |
The only concern I would have about the use of round tubing with a
streamlined fairing over it is rust. My brother recently recovered his
Citabria, and the only places he found rust were where fabric was glued to
the steel tubing. Invariably, at each of those locations there was some
rust, and occasional pitting. I don't know what kind of primer Champion
Aircraft used in the '70's when this plane was built, but it wasn't
adequate.
I would strongly recommend a very good (read, expensive) epoxy primer on any
steel strut that will have a cover glued to it, because you will not be able
to inspect the condition of the steel after it is assembled. A failure of a
lift strut due to corrosion will ruin your whole day.
BTW, on my Piet I have used Randolph Epibond epoxy primer, and Stits
PolyFiber epoxy primer. The PolyFiber is far superior, and can only be
removed by sandblasting once it is cured. I've had some of the Randolph
primer wear off the centersection fittings, just due to assembling and
dis-assembling the wings a few times.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
Oscar Zuniga pointed out:
> then get some of the extruded, paintable plastic streamline fairings that
> the ultralight/light plane guys use. It slips on over the tubing.
As yet another alternative, a friend who was building a Heath Parasol
did pretty much the same thing by gluing rigid foam to the tubing,
sanding it to shape, and wrapping it in the thin, coarse fiberglass used
these days as joint tape in hanging drywall. (There are two types; he
used the one without its own adhesive.) Finally, he slathered on a
thin layer of epoxy. Stiffened things up amazingly, without adding
much weight.
Owen Davies
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
All well and good, a bunch of alternatives, but has anyone done the math
for the appropriate size round steal or aluminum tubing?
Eyeballing the size and thickness doesn't cut much mustard when you're
dealing with the critical load bearing structure.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
Larry,
Most charts listing streamline tubing will also list an "equivalent round tubing"
size.
I have a manual published by the Summerill and will look that up tonight.
There is one complication, the tubing sizes called out in the plans do not correspond
with tubing sizes as we know them today.
Does anyone know the dimensions and wall thickness of the old style tubing that
are drawn in the plans?
Greg
>>> llneal2(at)earthlink.net 03/12/02 08:44PM >>>
All well and good, a bunch of alternatives, but has anyone done the math
for the appropriate size round steal or aluminum tubing?
Eyeballing the size and thickness doesn't cut much mustard when you're
dealing with the critical load bearing structure.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | streamline tubing |
I've done the math... and to quickly sum it up, the aluminum streamline
tubing from Carlson is plenty strong. As for round 4130, I haven't run the
numbers, but would see no reason why it wouldn't work assuming it's
equivalent of streamline was used. The AS&S catalog shows 4130 streamline
tubing and it's round equivalent.
The other thing to consider is under normal circumstances the Piet will
probably never get going fast enough to break much. It'll likely stall
before you can load the structure enough to break anything..... again,
under normal circumstances.
Which brings me to a question. I've done some searching through the NTSB
accident investigation archives and so far I've found about 7 accidents in
the past 10 years involving Piets or GN-1's. In each case it was engine
failure and one was a severe ground loop. None were due to structural
failure. I haven't searched the archives in a thorough manner, but it seems
that the only time you'll get hurt in a Piet is if your engine dies. hmmmm
suppose it's a good thing I'm going with a certified aero engine and not
something meant for 4 landlubberly wheels :-)
anyhow, my question is... has anyone ever heard of a case where a Piet went
down due to catastrophic structural failure?
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
All well and good, a bunch of alternatives, but has anyone done the math
for the appropriate size round steal or aluminum tubing?
Eyeballing the size and thickness doesn't cut much mustard when you're
dealing with the critical load bearing structure.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | streamline tubing |
There is a common story about a young man doing aerobatics in a Piet and folding
a wing while he was inverted. This led to Bernard making the comment "Better
add jury struts".
There was also mention in an old BPA newsletter about a man who was "rocking his
wings" to friends on the ground and then being unable to level the aircraft.
No other mention of the accident or cause.
Greg Cardinal
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com 03/12/02 09:29AM >>>
I've done the math... and to quickly sum it up, the aluminum streamline
tubing from Carlson is plenty strong. As for round 4130, I haven't run the
numbers, but would see no reason why it wouldn't work assuming it's
equivalent of streamline was used. The AS&S catalog shows 4130 streamline
tubing and it's round equivalent.
The other thing to consider is under normal circumstances the Piet will
probably never get going fast enough to break much. It'll likely stall
before you can load the structure enough to break anything..... again,
under normal circumstances.
Which brings me to a question. I've done some searching through the NTSB
accident investigation archives and so far I've found about 7 accidents in
the past 10 years involving Piets or GN-1's. In each case it was engine
failure and one was a severe ground loop. None were due to structural
failure. I haven't searched the archives in a thorough manner, but it seems
that the only time you'll get hurt in a Piet is if your engine dies. hmmmm
suppose it's a good thing I'm going with a certified aero engine and not
something meant for 4 landlubberly wheels :-)
anyhow, my question is... has anyone ever heard of a case where a Piet went
down due to catastrophic structural failure?
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
All well and good, a bunch of alternatives, but has anyone done the math
for the appropriate size round steal or aluminum tubing?
Eyeballing the size and thickness doesn't cut much mustard when you're
dealing with the critical load bearing structure.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Losing Chris Bobka |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Hey Ken! Just popped back into the list. What a disappointment. I was
afraid this might happen one day. If I had the time to run the list,
this fellow would have been long gone. As it is I think adding him to
the delete before read is a fine idea. Never seen Mike C. go off like
this before is reason enough for me.
29R update:
Spring is springing, and I have moved to a new house (closer to the
airport!) and I'll be taking a detour to work every morning when the
days get longer! The piet is a great just-for-the-fun-of-flying
airplane. Those who are serious about flying and building will have the
best value in a flying machine going. I built mine for $5000 with
engine (A-65), and have never had more fun than flying with 16 other
piets between Hartford (?) and Oshkosh in 99'. I'm looking forward to
doing it again in 04'!
Thanks for your friendship,
Steve Eldredge and family....
PS. Say hello to your wife!
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Anderson [mailto:piet4ken(at)mindspring.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Losing Chris Bobka
I've been hanging out here for quite some time
back when Steve E. was running the list.
I hate to see good contributors drop off the list.
Hopefully they will come back
Myself I fix the hare brained ideas very easily.
I use the DELETE key and go to the next worthwhile post
BTW The wife and I went to Sikeston,MO this wknd to Lamberts for some of
them good throwed rolls
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Losing Chris Bobka
>
> It is shameful for anyone to think it is humorous to throw out
hare-brained ideas to get a rise out of others and then insult
knowledgeable
contributors when they freely share their experiences.
> I know Chris Bobka well. He is the tech counselor that Dale Johnson
and I
are working with on our Pietenpol.
> You will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable person so
willing to
share his expertise.
> Chris is a CFI, ATP, A&P, MBA who drives DC-9's for a major carrier.
> He re-builds, restores and maintains his own aircraft and never fails
to
assist anyone who asks for his help.
> He became very upset when the term "square head" was directed at him.
> He is taking a hiatus from the list but has assured me he will be back
in
a week or two.
>
> Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
> Ph. 612 721-6235
>
>
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Losing Chris Bobka |
Steve,
Good to see your name pop up. There are those of us who need to know that those
of you who paved the way are still as enthusiastic.
Larry Ragan
Jacksonville, Fl.
lragan(at)hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | round tubing 4130 |
Brian Kenny of Canada has round tubing for his lift struts on his short
fuse 65 Cont.
Piet. He is not on this list that I'm aware of, so I don't know the
dimensions of his
material. He's been flying that thing for years now. He has no fairing
mat'l to streamline
them and why bother. The Piet is too slow to know the difference. Brian
simply cut and
flattened and re-welded his wing ends and used a strap hinge wrapping like
the plans show
but rather than go inside the tubing and get bolted, his tabs go over the
flattened tubing.
Great to see some good postings !!!
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Pacetti <gpacetti(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | streamline tubing |
V.J.
I have for some reason, unknown to even myself,
deleted the Carlson address from my puter and now I
can't find it. Would you mind posting it again for me.
And I promise to bookmark it this time :-}}
Thanks
Dean Auburndale, Fla.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | streamline tubing |
hmmmm
> suppose it's a good thing I'm going with a certified
> aero engine and not
> something meant for 4 landlubberly wheels :-)
Do you mean to say that the so called certified aero
engine will run even when you run the tank dry or ice
it up, or break a jug,valve,crank, etc etc etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
you bet.... it's www.sky-tek.com I ordered my struts from them last
week. Should get here in the next couple days. When they do I'll snap
some pics and post them to my site and let you all know how they look.
DJ
www.raptoronline.com
----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dean Pacetti
>
> V.J.
> I have for some reason, unknown to even myself,
> deleted the Carlson address from my puter and now I
> can't find it. Would you mind posting it again for me.
> And I promise to bookmark it this time :-}}
> Thanks
> Dean Auburndale, Fla.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
I am beginning an area which is totally new to me. In all my years and many
endevors I have never been exposed to sheet metal work lest it be to cover
the barn or shed with the corrugated stuff. Thanks for the Mike Cuy help and
guidance I have completed my nose bowl in .025 Alum. NOW my concern and
question to the list IS:
May or can I use .020 Alum for the four pieces of cowling and expect it to be
ridged enough? I have a bunch which I got cheap and would like to use it but
not at the expense of something unsatisfactory. This cowl is for the A-65
engine cantilevered from the firewall bulkhead.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
| From: | john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
Inexpensive alternative to streamlined 4130 steel:
Brian Kenney, who built an award winning piet, originally had round steel
struts with fairing material and (I believe) wrapped fabric covering.
After a time, he had some trouble with this, and in 1995 he had his piet
back at Brodhead with plain, round steel tube for the struts. He said he
couldn't really notice any difference in its flight characteristics.
(Somewhere I had written down the dimensions of the material he had used,
but I am not sure where,).
John Fay in Peoria
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Corky,
You and I are in the same boat. I'm pretty fair with the woodwork, and the
welding, but I'm now making the cowlings or coamings or whatever you call
the sheetmetal aft of the firewall that covers the top of the fuselage. I'm
having to learn all kinds of new skills.
I'm using .025" Alclad 2024-T3 material, primarily because my brother had a
bunch left over from his Hatz Biplane project and gave it to me. I suspect
that .005" difference in thickness might be noticeable, but probably
wouldn't be catastrophic. If it is, you could always rivet some ribs or
doublers on the inside to stiffen it up a little. Home Depot sells some
very nice 1/2" x1/2" x .050" aluminum angle that could be riveted inside the
cowling (running parallel to the curvature) to add quite a bit of stiffness.
I'm using some of that to stiffen up the skin around the baggage door I'm
making for the comaprtment forward of the front cockpit (my fuel tank is in
the centersection). It's light, it's stiff and it's cheap. I bought an 8'
piece of it this morning for $3 and some change.
I'd go ahead and use what you've got, assuming it's not some dead-soft
aluminum. If it's 2024-T3 or 6061-T6 it is probably fine. Like I said, if
it is too flimsy, you can always add a few stiffeners for a whole lot less
money than buying another sheet of aluminum.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sheet Metal
Pieters,
I am beginning an area which is totally new to me. In all my years and many
endevors I have never been exposed to sheet metal work lest it be to cover
the barn or shed with the corrugated stuff. Thanks for the Mike Cuy help and
guidance I have completed my nose bowl in .025 Alum. NOW my concern and
question to the list IS:
May or can I use .020 Alum for the four pieces of cowling and expect it to
be
ridged enough? I have a bunch which I got cheap and would like to use it but
not at the expense of something unsatisfactory. This cowl is for the A-65
engine cantilevered from the firewall bulkhead.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Thanks Jack,
You said what I wanted to hear. I failed to mention that I'm really enjoying
this sheet metal work as you can see your results so soon.
Corky in cold La
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: round tubing 4130 |
In a message dated 3/12/02 9:29:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov writes:
> Brian Kenny of Canada has round tubing for his lift struts on his short
> fuse 65 Cont.
> Piet. He is not on this list that I'm aware of, so I don't know the
> dimensions of his
> material. He's been flying that thing for years now. He has no fairing
> mat'l to streamline
> them and why bother. The Piet is too slow to know the difference. Brian
>
> simply cut and
> flattened and re-welded his wing ends and used a strap hinge wrapping like
> the plans show
> but rather than go inside the tubing and get bolted, his tabs go over the
> flattened tubing.
>
>
The lift struts on my first plane are 1 !/4 dia x .049 wall round 4130 with a
V shaped low carbon steel trailing edge skip welded on. The ends are
terminated to the plans. The idea came from one of the older Bucheye
newsletters. This plane has 110 hours now. Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: was streamline tubing |
come on... I'm not that ignorant. In each of the cases that I reviewed
on the NTSC list the Piets were powered with Model A or Corvair. Only the
GN-1 was C-85 equipped and it was ground looped.
I was just getting a fun sarcastic dig in on those who wish to use auto
engines... no harm, no foul.
why do some people on this list get so worked up??
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
>
> hmmmm
> > suppose it's a good thing I'm going with a certified
> > aero engine and not
> > something meant for 4 landlubberly wheels :-)
>
> Do you mean to say that the so called certified aero
> engine will run even when you run the tank dry or ice
> it up, or break a jug,valve,crank, etc etc etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Corky---I was amazed at how sturdy my .025" 2024 T-3 alum worked out for
all the metal up top and in front. It's really flimsy until installed and
then it
really gets rigid. The only problem I have is when cleaning/waxing the side
or cheek cowl there is an oil-can tendency if I push too hard. Jack's alum.
angle suggestion is a possibility for your thinner .020. If nothing else
you'll
get good at the cowl work if you have to make a part or two over. A
de-burring
tool is nice-----cheap too. Use it on the edges. Again, most of my ideas
for my
cowl came from Tony B.'s books. Especially the alum. piano hinge idea that
bisects the cowl on each side for easy removal.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sheet Metal
Pieters,
I am beginning an area which is totally new to me. In all my years and
many
endevors I have never been exposed to sheet metal work lest it be to
cover
the barn or shed with the corrugated stuff. Thanks for the Mike Cuy
help and
guidance I have completed my nose bowl in .025 Alum. NOW my concern
and
question to the list IS:
May or can I use .020 Alum for the four pieces of cowling and expect
it to be
ridged enough? I have a bunch which I got cheap and would like to use
it but
not at the expense of something unsatisfactory. This cowl is for the
A-65
engine cantilevered from the firewall bulkhead.
Corky in La
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One method to stiffen alum ( which I did ) is to rivit 1/4X1/4 alum
angle on the inside of the places that need support.
Mike B Piet N687MB (Mr Sam )
PS: Great to have our list back.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean Pacetti <gpacetti(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
DJ thanks for the address. This is just what I
needed for my UL project.
Sorry about the first letter change in your
name:-}}
Dean
next door to S&F in Auburndale, Fla.
--- DJ Vegh wrote:
>
>
> you bet.... it's www.sky-tek.com I ordered my
> struts from them last
> week. Should get here in the next couple days.
> When they do I'll snap
> some pics and post them to my site and let you all
> know how they look.
>
> DJ
> www.raptoronline.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> >
> > V.J.
> > I have for some reason, unknown to even myself,
> > deleted the Carlson address from my puter and now
> I
> > can't find it. Would you mind posting it again for
> me.
> > And I promise to bookmark it this time :-}}
> > Thanks
> > Dean Auburndale, Fla.
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
sorry;
RIVET
Mike B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Fw: taylorcraft: a-65 |
FYI
----- Original Message -----
From: "salfalla" <salfalla(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: taylorcraft: a-65
Have an a-65 engine completely disasembeld for sale...have all the
logs...make an offer....Sal From Mia
Taylorcraft (TOC/TF) - Subscription info:
http://www.taylorcraft.org/links.html
==
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
>
> Hey Ken! Just popped back into the list. What a disappointment. I was
> afraid this might happen one day. If I had the time to run the list,
> this fellow would have been long gone. As it is I think adding him to
> the delete before read is a fine idea. Never seen Mike C. go off like
> this before is reason enough for me.
Well, listers, we have gotten Fisherman to "unsubscribe" from the list, so
you can get Chris and a few of the others back on it! He wrote me today to
ask if he could use water pipe or conduit for his controls - told him to
forget it and bite the bullet and use 4130. But he is off the list, and if
he bugs me too much, well, I have a delete key also, and a good mail filter.
Steve, glad to hear that "spring has sprung and the grass has riz"! Here in
the land of eternal summer (with a few days to remind us of the folks up
Nawth), most of us have forgotten what spring is. Take that detour, but
start out about an hour early - so you have time to blow the cobwebs off the
struts!
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: back to serious business |
Jack
I dont have any fittings welded on my front struts. I will have to check
them. They may be from a PA-12. I could definetly make a detour if needed.
If they are the same size as you need I'm willing. I will be going to the
hangar tomorrow night and I'll get the dimensioons.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
>
> Dick,
>
> As I told Gene Rambo, I think I want to use the front Cub struts on my
Piet.
> I have a full set of Cub struts, and would be happy to trade a pair of
rear
> struts for a pair of front struts. If you are going to SNF will you be
> passing through or close to Raleigh, NC?
>
> I have not run any stress analysis to see if the front struts are
required,
> I just think they look a little better (not as spindly) as the rear
struts.
> Of course, the front struts are more trouble - you've got to cut off and
> grind smooth the fairlead attachments that Piper welded on them for the
> aileron cables. I agree that the front struts are definitely heavier, and
> probably unjustified. I just think it looks better with all four struts
the
> same size.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
> Navratril
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 10:29 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
>
>
>
> Gene
> Most of the Piets out ther that I have seen flying use 4 of the rear
struts.
> I have a set with the larger front pair and still havent decided to use
> them. They are 3 pounds heavier than the rear I may take the front pair
to
> SNF and try to trade or sell them.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
>
>
> >
> >
> > I think we have wasted enought time on Ray, let's move on, please. I
> > have a question, it has always been my understanding that most everyone
> > is using the Cub rear struts for their Piet struts, rather than the Cub
> > forward struts. Is this correct? I have two sets of each and have been
> > asked for the forward struts, but I want to make sure I am keeping the
> > correct ones.
> >
> > Also, when any one of you has moved the wing aft for CG purposes, does
> > the length of the cabane struts need to change, or does the wing move
> > aft and remain at the correct incidence (seems like it would, just want
> > to make sure before I go ahead and weld up my cabane struts.
> >
> > Jack Phillips has cleared up my confusion on the wooden landing gear
> > that I asked about earlier, and anyone who is contemplating a wooden
> > gear needs to hear his advice before building. You will save a lot of
> > head scratching that we both went through.
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Gene
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I have my one piece wing completely covered. All was fine ironing out
at 250 degrees, but when I stepped up to 280 I am getting some
distortion in the upper inboard ribs on each side. It's about 1/4" at
this point. I left the center bay open to install the fuel tank later.
I checked the archives, I remember past discussions about this but I
cant find solutions in the archives.
The first question - Have you all continued on to 350 degrees or would
it be best to stop at 300?
Next - I am thinking of stopping here and flipping the wing over and
installing access rings on the botton of the wing so I can get inside to
add another 1x1" brace to the rib, I should add that I put in a 1/8"
plywood doubler on the inside ribs and since I have installed a plywood
bottom on the fuel tank bay the distortion is only on the top of the
rib. Any thoughts please.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
>
>Well, listers, we have gotten Fisherman to "unsubscribe" from the list, so
>you can get Chris and a few of the others back on it! He wrote me today to
>ask if he could use water pipe or conduit for his controls - told him to
>forget it and bite the bullet and use 4130. But he is off the list, and if
>he bugs me too much, well, I have a delete key also, and a good mail filter.
Yeah,
If you care, check his web site for a few choice comments - I guess the
'mob peer pressure' from the 'holier than thou gurus' finally got to him.
BTW, I did a web search on him while babysitting (excuse me, substitute
teaching) today - nothing else to do, I don't know beans about accounting
:).
Did you guys realize that the civilizations of ancient India had jet
aircraft and nuclear weapons? And that there are ruins of ancient
civilizations on Mars? Did you also know that our friend runs an 'asset
protection' operation down there in Belize? (Excuse me, an 'offshore mutual
fund' is how he actually describes it, I believe). There was LOTS more,
he's not the dumb old country boy he implied to be. There were hundreds, if
not thousands, of pages of stuff he's written on the web, and he also has
at least five or six books published as well, on just about every topic
imaginable.
But enough of that. I'm ready to get back to the real business of the list,
like most of you.
I am just about finished setting up my workshop, and now that I'll have a
paycheck coming in again soon, I will be able to get a few power tools and
more actual materials for the project.
I picked up a bottle of that Elmer's Pro-Bond polyester glue just for kicks
the other day. Glued up a test piece & did a break test at our EAA chapter
meeting last night (lots of guys in my chapter are building wood aircraft).
Bottom line - don't use it for structural joints. The joint was strong
enough to withstand my attempts to break it by hand (finally broke it by
putting it in a vise to get leverage), and there was some wood fiber
separation, but most of the break was in the glue joint. It is a 1-part
waterproof glue, so it could be useful for non-structural work or maybe
laminations.
Guess it's back to T-88 & Resorcinol.
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Thanks Mike,
For deburring I like a 10 inch mill bastard file. For the stiffeners I
decided to cut some .025 3/4 wide, bend 90 deg and rivet lengthwise. I've
plenty laying around. Have some .025 stainless left over from firewall. Is
this strong enough for the tabs on firewall to attach cowling? Made 2 sets of
the cowling patterns for Dick Gillespie in Ft Myers and Jim Cooper in
Abbeville. The are both nearing completion on their Gn's. Haven't seen Jim's
lately but Dick's is a rare beauty. Flawless workmanship. After seeing his I
was ashamed to come home to mine. Thanks again for your help and advice.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Guys, I would like to ask that when I go on vacation you all stop thinking
about and discussing Piets. I come back to a pile of emails (is this
possible?). And I HAVE to read everyone, sitting on the edge of my chair.
Anyway, great to be here. Our EAA Chapter 12 is gearing up for the Lone Star
Flight Museum show in April. I hope to be showing some of the stuff I am
building there and get more people interested. Keep the great dialog going.
I learn something everyday on this list.
Regards,
Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
MyKitPlane.com
EAA 665957
gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratril
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:43 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: covering
I have my one piece wing completely covered. All was fine ironing out
at 250 degrees, but when I stepped up to 280 I am getting some
distortion in the upper inboard ribs on each side. It's about 1/4"
at
this point. I left the center bay open to install the fuel tank later.
I checked the archives, I remember past discussions about this but I
cant find solutions in the archives.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yep, that is going to happen. I installed diagonals from the rib, top
& bottom, from the rib back to the fwd & aft spar. After that, 300 deg
worked.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
The big question is - did you go up to 350 degrees?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Navratril
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: covering
>
>
>
>
> I have my one piece wing completely covered. All was fine ironing out
> at 250 degrees, but when I stepped up to 280 I am getting some
> distortion in the upper inboard ribs on each side. It's about 1/4"
> at
> this point. I left the center bay open to install the fuel tank later.
> I checked the archives, I remember past discussions about this but I
> cant find solutions in the archives.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Yep, that is going to happen. I installed diagonals from the rib, top
> & bottom, from the rib back to the fwd & aft spar. After that, 300 deg
> worked.
>
> Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
Following some comments about Fisherman, who used to be a
mainstay on the misc.invest newsgroups, where he was much
less abrasive and had some useful things to say about options,
Kip Gardner said:
> I picked up a bottle of that Elmer's Pro-Bond polyester glue just for
kicks
> the other day. Glued up a test piece & did a break test at our EAA chapter
> meeting last night ...there was some wood fiber
> separation, but most of the break was in the glue joint.
There have been a couple of interesting articles about polyurethane glues
in Wooden Boat in the last few years. After a good first reaction, they
concluded that PU glues aren't really suitable for high-stress joints that
might need to be waterproof. However, a friend of mine swears by
them and says the only problem is that you have to get the clamping
pressure just right. Too much or too little, and it gives results pretty
much as Kip describes.
For my money--not that I can claim any expertise--it seems the
conservative path is to avoid polyurethanes. In fact, the more
I look at the issue of glues, the more I'm inclined to improve my
woodworking and stick to resorcinol--much as I hate working
with the stuff. There's just nothing else out there that no one
has a quarrel with.
Owen Davies
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
I stumbled on this ad on ebay for an A-65. Could possibly be a good deal.
link below for those interested.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1712003097
DJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)email.msn.com> |
Hello Gents,
I have been one of the lurkers on the list now for about six months
or so. Today I finally sent off for my plans. I bought the three plan
pack, the manual, and full size CAD drawing of the ribs. Trying to sell
our house right now now so we can get down in some warmer climate year
round. I've been gathering info on the Pietenpol for about a year now.
Looking forward to getting going on the plane once we get a new place
down in the flat lands. Enjoy the info every day. GREAT LIST !!!!!!
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
axle?
I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
ideas appreciated.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
DJ,
If you look in the EAA Wood book, there is a picture of a split axle
Pietenpol with wire wheels. It is towards the back of the book, in a
chapter called "Why not Build a Wooden Airplane?" I don't remember the page
number and the book is downstairs in my shop.
You would have to modify the plans somewhat to change the height of the gear
unless you wanted to always make wheel landings - otherwise the Cub type
gear with such tall wheels would require too high an angle of attack at
landing, and you could not 3-point it.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
axle?
I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
ideas appreciated.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Doug,
Congratulations! You've made the biggest decision - what kind of plane to
build. Now you've got a whole bunch of other decisions to make, like:
1. Whether to build the long fuselage or short fuselage
2. What engine to use
3. Which landing gear to use (Cub type or straight axle)
4. What kind of wood to use (spruce, fir, cedar or hemlock)
5. What kind of glue to use
Pity the kitbuilders. They don't have such leeway in their airplanes.
Enjoy,
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TWINBOOM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans,
Hello Gents,
I have been one of the lurkers on the list now for about six months
or so. Today I finally sent off for my plans. I bought the three plan
pack, the manual, and full size CAD drawing of the ribs. Trying to sell
our house right now now so we can get down in some warmer climate year
round. I've been gathering info on the Pietenpol for about a year now.
Looking forward to getting going on the plane once we get a new place
down in the flat lands. Enjoy the info every day. GREAT LIST !!!!!!
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | back to serious business |
Dick, the J-3 Front Struts I have measure 2.55" major axis and 1.20" minor
axis.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Navratril
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to serious business
Jack
I dont have any fittings welded on my front struts. I will have to check
them. They may be from a PA-12. I could definetly make a detour if needed.
If they are the same size as you need I'm willing. I will be going to the
hangar tomorrow night and I'll get the dimensioons.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
I have run across a Lycoming 65. As I have just bought two Corvair
motors, this sorta figures..
A literal basket case, disassembled, probably 98% complete. Includes
carb, mags, prop and motor mount for $1500.
I seem to remember this particular lycoming was a parts nightmare, any
warnings before I aquire yet another pile of engine parts?
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: streamline tubing |
personally, whatever I did I'd make all four the same. I have not thought
through what diameter round I would use, but 1 1/4 sounds about right.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
>
> would you use 1-1/4" 4130 for both struts?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
>
>
> >
> > or you could use round tubing and streamline it with balsa, which is
> exactly
> > what I would do if I didn't have these Cub struts.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: streamline tubing
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Hello, low 'n' slow fliers-
> > >
> > > I think I may have mentioned this before, but here goes again. There
is
> > yet
> > > another alternative for your streamline tubing wing struts (or cabane
> > > struts, or any others). Say you want the strength of steel with
welded
> > > fittings but don't want to pay for streamline tubing. Well, build
your
> > > struts out of plain round 4130 tube. Make the ends anything you
want...
> > > fishmouth into plates, flatten the ends and drill for bolting, weld in
> > > adjustable clevis fittings, however you want to do it, using round
> tubing,
> > > then get some of the extruded, paintable plastic streamline fairings
> that
> > > the ultralight/light plane guys use. It slips on over the tubing.
Cuts
> > > easily, you can shape the ends anyway you want to make them fit your
> ends,
> > > and you can glue the ends or other pieces together to fit your needs.
> > >
> > > One source is Stream-Line in North Port, FL; email
> streamlineco(at)yahoo.com
> > > and website is at http://streamline.8k.com/ they have a set of four,
8'
> > > sections of their "small" fairing material (fits up to 1-1/4" dia.
round
> > > tubing) for about $170, or about $5.31 per foot.
> > >
> > > Like I said; it's just one more way to skin the cat. Maybe not for
> > > everybody, but some expressed hesitancy at using aluminum extrusions
for
> > > this application, so go ahead and use steel... but streamline it.
> > >
> > > Oscar Zuniga
> > > Medford, Oregon
> > > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> > > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
This is where I'm headed as well.
Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
A good starting point might be the weights of some existing wheels,
minus tire for comparison. Then off to the junkyard for the first try.
Next, there are several wheel companies discussed that could build hubs
and provide off the shelf rims and spokes. If several of us agree on
size, spokes, brake mounting etc. we may be able to have a few hubs
turned out at a decent price.
Cant' fib about an airboat this time, hm... We'll just tell 'em the
wheels are for a training sulky! Yeah, that's the ticket!
Finally some discussion of the gear length and geometry needs to be done
to set this up right. I'm going to try to email some folks I've seen
running tall gear for some info, any other comments would be appreciated.
Larry
Jack Phillips wrote:
>
>DJ,
>
>If you look in the EAA Wood book, there is a picture of a split axle
>Pietenpol with wire wheels. It is towards the back of the book, in a
>chapter called "Why not Build a Wooden Airplane?" I don't remember the page
>number and the book is downstairs in my shop.
>
>You would have to modify the plans somewhat to change the height of the gear
>unless you wanted to always make wheel landings - otherwise the Cub type
>gear with such tall wheels would require too high an angle of attack at
>landing, and you could not 3-point it.
>
>Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
>Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:53 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
>anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
>axle?
>
>I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
>to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
>
>ideas appreciated.
>
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1 Builder
>www.raptoronline.com
>N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratril
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering
The big question is - did you go up to 350 degrees?
Dick
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It was a while ago - 16 years ? - but I believe I went to 350.
I also braced the aileron bays & the wing tip bows.
Mike B Piet N687MB (Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Check out Jim Malley's Air Camper in the July, 1992 Kitplanes.
Motorcycle wheels on J-3 style gear.
Greg Cardinal
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com 03/12/02 11:53PM >>>
anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
axle?
I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
ideas appreciated.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
don't forget weldwood, which no one should have a quarrel with.
do dnot archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Davies <owen(at)davies.mv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Losing Chris Bobka
>
> Following some comments about Fisherman, who used to be a
> mainstay on the misc.invest newsgroups, where he was much
> less abrasive and had some useful things to say about options,
> Kip Gardner said:
>
>
> > I picked up a bottle of that Elmer's Pro-Bond polyester glue just for
> kicks
> > the other day. Glued up a test piece & did a break test at our EAA
chapter
> > meeting last night ...there was some wood fiber
> > separation, but most of the break was in the glue joint.
>
> There have been a couple of interesting articles about polyurethane glues
> in Wooden Boat in the last few years. After a good first reaction, they
> concluded that PU glues aren't really suitable for high-stress joints that
> might need to be waterproof. However, a friend of mine swears by
> them and says the only problem is that you have to get the clamping
> pressure just right. Too much or too little, and it gives results pretty
> much as Kip describes.
>
> For my money--not that I can claim any expertise--it seems the
> conservative path is to avoid polyurethanes. In fact, the more
> I look at the issue of glues, the more I'm inclined to improve my
> woodworking and stick to resorcinol--much as I hate working
> with the stuff. There's just nothing else out there that no one
> has a quarrel with.
>
> Owen Davies
>
>
> ---
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Larry,
Some things to consider with tall wheels (which I'm using on my Piet).
1. Braking can be a problem. Big wheels are hard to stop - airplanes quit
using tall wheels at about the time they started using brakes, and probably
for that reason. If you use motorcycle wheels, you probably will want to
use their brakes as well, unless you just want the brakes to slow you down a
little, not hold it for a runup.
2. If you use brakes, you've got to find some way to counteract the brake
torque or the axle will spin. Of course, if you use the split axle gear
this is not a problem. It is a big problem with the straight axle. Mike
Cuy came up with a very clever system of pins welded to the axle and riding
in guides welded to the V fittings that I have copied with pride.
3. Motorcycle wheels are not designed to take any side load. Since a
motorcycle leans in a turn, all loads are carried radially. For this
reason, motorcycles can get away with narrow hubs and the spokes nearly
vertical. Unless you can guarentee that you will never land while drifting
slightly sideways, you might want to consider making wider hubs to give a
better angle to the spokes. I've seen Piet's done both ways, but I've also
heard of some using stock motorcycle wheels to have a wheel collapse due to
side loading. Just something to consider. The GN-1 I flew several years
ago used stock Honda 3.25 x 18 wheels and brakes
4. Lightweight alloy rims are available. Go to a cycle shop and ask for
Motocross wheels. I got a pair of used aluminum rim 21" wheels for $20. I
will make wider (6" wide) hubs for them and will use hydraulic Cleveland
aircraft brakes.
5. Bearings don't need to be elaborate. Mike Cuy uses plain bronze
bushings, greased occasionally. I'm going to do the same thing. Motorcycle
wheels are designed to run at high speed. The fastest you are ever likely
to run your plane on the ground is about 40 mph and then only for a short
time.
6. I weighed my wheels and tires as they came from the cycle shop. They
weighed 17 lbs. apiece. I was horrified until I started weighing regular
6.00 x 6 aircraft wheels and found they weigh nearly as much. Don't worry
about it, if the wire wheels give the look you want. You might be carrying
a 3 or 4 lb penalty. I haven't calculated the difference in weight of the
two types of undercarriage, but I expect they are close to the same. The
solid axle is heavy, but other than thet there is not much steel in the
straight axle gear, and the spruce struts probably weigh less than 2 lbs
total.
Good luck,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Neal
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
This is where I'm headed as well.
Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
A good starting point might be the weights of some existing wheels,
minus tire for comparison. Then off to the junkyard for the first try.
Next, there are several wheel companies discussed that could build hubs
and provide off the shelf rims and spokes. If several of us agree on
size, spokes, brake mounting etc. we may be able to have a few hubs
turned out at a decent price.
Cant' fib about an airboat this time, hm... We'll just tell 'em the
wheels are for a training sulky! Yeah, that's the ticket!
Finally some discussion of the gear length and geometry needs to be done
to set this up right. I'm going to try to email some folks I've seen
running tall gear for some info, any other comments would be appreciated.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
>
>This is where I'm headed as well.
>
>Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
> This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
>If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
>hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
>possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
>adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
>turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
>finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
OK Guys,
I have heard the arguments Jack made about hub width before & somewhere in
the old BPA newsletters there is an article about making wide hubs from
aluminum.
Can't argue with that, makes great sense, but my question is, what is the
minimum practical diameter for a set of spoke wheels, considering that the
spokes need to be some minumum length to work & you'd need a hub big
engough to accomodate brakes? I like the esthetics of spoke wheels, but
also of the cub-style gear.
I got a set of Goodyear 6 x 6.00 wheels with my project, sans brakes. I may
well just use those since I can get the old-stlye brakes easily enough; I
have heard that these brakes could have problems, however?
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
>
>
>
> don't forget weldwood, which no one should have a quarrel with.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Weldwood is FAA approved, it is available locally & it can be made up
>in small batches, if kept dry it has a long shelf life
> I used it on my ribs.
I'm familiar with weldwood, too. It and powdered hide glue (definitely NOT
FAA approved!) were staples in the piano-repair business 25 years ago. We
used to use weldwood to make veneer repairs on pianos we were restoring.
It's nice, easy glue to work with, but I prefer something that is
waterproof for aircraft applications. That's why I was intrigued by the
Pro-Bond stuff as a 1-part waterproof glue, but I guess it'll mostly get
used for honeydo projects :).
Cheers,
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
Gene Rambo advised:
> don't forget weldwood, which no one should have a quarrel with.
Well, it was Weldwood resorcinol I was thinking of--the only
true structural glue I can get at the local hardware store. If you
mean the usual Weldwood, the stuff like super contact cement,
I don't even like it for basic woodworking. Maybe it's just me,
but I've never gotten a bond with it that I could trust to hold up
under ordinary stresses, much less to hold me up under the stresses
of flight.
Of course, the same friend who loves polyurethane glues also
loves Weldwood--not the resorcinol, the other stuff--and used
it to build significant parts of a HiMax. However, I notice that
he doesn't seem to fly it all that much.
Owen Davies
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)email.msn.com> |
Jack,
Having done the research for the past year, here are the answer to your
quetions.
1. I plan on building the long fusealage.
2. I plan on using the Corvair engine with the 3100cc upgrade, ( I wiegh
230lbs).
3. I plan on using the straight axle type modeled after Mr. Mike Cuy's,
Awesome Job/video Mike).
4. Because it is my first plane, I will probably use aircraft grade spruce
from "Aircarft Spruce", they are only 20 miles from where I live.
5. The jury is still out on the glue. I use epoxies building models and have
ebcome very used to mixing it ect. I zero out a cup on a digital scale, then
add equal amounts wieght wise to make sure I have equal parts or whatever
the batch mix portiopns need to be.
How's that sound Jack?
Doug B.
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans,
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Congratulations! You've made the biggest decision - what kind of plane to
> build. Now you've got a whole bunch of other decisions to make, like:
>
> 1. Whether to build the long fuselage or short fuselage
> 2. What engine to use
> 3. Which landing gear to use (Cub type or straight axle)
> 4. What kind of wood to use (spruce, fir, cedar or hemlock)
> 5. What kind of glue to use
>
> Pity the kitbuilders. They don't have such leeway in their airplanes.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Jack Phillips
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TWINBOOM
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:34 AM
> To: Pietenpol List
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans,
>
>
> Hello Gents,
> I have been one of the lurkers on the list now for about six months
> or so. Today I finally sent off for my plans. I bought the three plan
> pack, the manual, and full size CAD drawing of the ribs. Trying to sell
> our house right now now so we can get down in some warmer climate year
> round. I've been gathering info on the Pietenpol for about a year now.
> Looking forward to getting going on the plane once we get a new place
> down in the flat lands. Enjoy the info every day. GREAT LIST !!!!!!
>
> Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
> ArrowBear Lake Ca.
> Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Sounds like you've done your homework and will build a fine airplane. I
hope to see it at OSH someday (you'd have even a tougher trip than I will.
I've got to fly over the Appalachians to get to Oshkosh, but you've got to
go over the Sierra Nevadas and the Rockies!).
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TWINBOOM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans,
Jack,
Having done the research for the past year, here are the answer to your
quetions.
1. I plan on building the long fusealage.
2. I plan on using the Corvair engine with the 3100cc upgrade, ( I wiegh
230lbs).
3. I plan on using the straight axle type modeled after Mr. Mike Cuy's,
Awesome Job/video Mike).
4. Because it is my first plane, I will probably use aircraft grade spruce
from "Aircarft Spruce", they are only 20 miles from where I live.
5. The jury is still out on the glue. I use epoxies building models and have
ebcome very used to mixing it ect. I zero out a cup on a digital scale, then
add equal amounts wieght wise to make sure I have equal parts or whatever
the batch mix portiopns need to be.
How's that sound Jack?
Doug B.
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans,
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Congratulations! You've made the biggest decision - what kind of plane to
> build. Now you've got a whole bunch of other decisions to make, like:
>
> 1. Whether to build the long fuselage or short fuselage
> 2. What engine to use
> 3. Which landing gear to use (Cub type or straight axle)
> 4. What kind of wood to use (spruce, fir, cedar or hemlock)
> 5. What kind of glue to use
>
> Pity the kitbuilders. They don't have such leeway in their airplanes.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Jack Phillips
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TWINBOOM
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:34 AM
> To: Pietenpol List
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans,
>
>
> Hello Gents,
> I have been one of the lurkers on the list now for about six months
> or so. Today I finally sent off for my plans. I bought the three plan
> pack, the manual, and full size CAD drawing of the ribs. Trying to sell
> our house right now now so we can get down in some warmer climate year
> round. I've been gathering info on the Pietenpol for about a year now.
> Looking forward to getting going on the plane once we get a new place
> down in the flat lands. Enjoy the info every day. GREAT LIST !!!!!!
>
> Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
> ArrowBear Lake Ca.
> Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
>
>Gene Rambo advised:
>
>
>> don't forget weldwood, which no one should have a quarrel with.
>
>Well, it was Weldwood resorcinol I was thinking of--the only
>true structural glue I can get at the local hardware store. If you
>mean the usual Weldwood, the stuff like super contact cement,
>I don't even like it for basic woodworking. Maybe it's just me,
>but I've never gotten a bond with it that I could trust to hold up
>under ordinary stresses, much less to hold me up under the stresses
>of flight.
>
>Of course, the same friend who loves polyurethane glues also
>loves Weldwood--not the resorcinol, the other stuff--and used
>it to build significant parts of a HiMax. However, I notice that
>he doesn't seem to fly it all that much.
>
>Owen Davies
Owen,
What I was referring to is the powdered, 1-part 'plastic resin glue' that
is also called 'Weldwod Glue' (I think this is what Gene had in mind too).
The stuff you are talking about sounds like weldwood contact cement; it's
useful for large-area laminating (make your own plywood!?), laying down
countertop material, etc., but not good for structural joints.
Kip
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen(at)davies.mv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing Chris Bobka |
Kip Gardner pointed out:
> What I was referring to is the powdered, 1-part 'plastic resin glue' that
> is also called 'Weldwod Glue' (I think this is what Gene had in mind too).
Of course. I should have realized.
Leaves me wondering whether I've misjudged that friend who uses
"Weldwood." Still, he does endorse polyurethanes...
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Kip,
While I can't give you a definitive answer on minimum practical diameter of spoked
wheels I can tell you that 18 or 19 inch wheels with 3.25 or 3.50 tires have
a very nice proportional look to them.
As the diameter of the rim gets smaller you will need to consider the angle at
which the spokes mate with the rim.
A quick call to Buchanans should give you an answer.
Website: www.buchananspokes.com/
805 W. 8th St.
Azusa, CA 91702
(626) 969-4655
(626) 812-0243 fax
Greg Cardinal
>>> kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net 03/13/02 08:10AM >>>
>
>This is where I'm headed as well.
>
>Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
> This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
>If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
>hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
>possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
>adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
>turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
>finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
OK Guys,
I have heard the arguments Jack made about hub width before & somewhere in
the old BPA newsletters there is an article about making wide hubs from
aluminum.
Can't argue with that, makes great sense, but my question is, what is the
minimum practical diameter for a set of spoke wheels, considering that the
spokes need to be some minumum length to work & you'd need a hub big
engough to accomodate brakes? I like the esthetics of spoke wheels, but
also of the cub-style gear.
I got a set of Goodyear 6 x 6.00 wheels with my project, sans brakes. I may
well just use those since I can get the old-stlye brakes easily enough; I
have heard that these brakes could have problems, however?
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
a good point about the J-3 gear being too tall to use with motor wire
wheels.
A question to those of you with motor wheels and straight axles.
What is the distance between the ground and the bottom of the fuse directly
under the axle centerline of the landing gear?
I'd like to see how much it would differ from a J-3 gear with J-3 wheels.
Also, I've seen some Husky's and J-3's that are configured for severe bush
flying. They have huge balloon tires on them that make my off road Ford
Ranger tires look pathetic. Do they increase the tail height by the same
amount to maintain a stock deck angle??
I'm thinkning if I use 18" wheels instead of 21" wheels and use a taller
tail wheel spring I could get away with the height problem. yes no??
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
I did some more math on heights and angles.
I found that a stock GN-1 with J-3 style wheels will sit at about an 11
degree deck angle (ground to top longeron)
If I put 18" motorcycle wheels the deck angle is about 13 degrees. a two
degree difference.
I imported some pictures of straight axle motorcycle wheeled Piets into my
3D program. Taking into acount the parralax and perspective of the photo I
was able to determine that they were any where from 10 to 15 degrees
depending on the aircraft. Seems like deck angle isn't too critical as
long as it within the 10 to 15 degree range.
BUT, I have never flown a tail dragger before so I have no experience in
what all that means.
Would there really be a drastic difference in landing style or handling if I
used an 18" motorcyle rim instead of a smaller wheel on a J-3 gear?
help?!
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
It seems to me the hardest part to all of this is finding a hub wide enough.
It would be nice if there was one out there stock, such as used on a big
Harley. I understand that Ken Perkins makes hubs, anyone else?
I am going with the straight gear, I just like the look of it, and 18-19"
wheels. I need to think about getting some made up soon.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
> Cardinal
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
>
>
> Kip,
> While I can't give you a definitive answer on minimum practical
> diameter of spoked wheels I can tell you that 18 or 19 inch
> wheels with 3.25 or 3.50 tires have a very nice proportional look to them.
> As the diameter of the rim gets smaller you will need to consider
> the angle at which the spokes mate with the rim.
> A quick call to Buchanans should give you an answer.
> Website: www.buchananspokes.com/
> 805 W. 8th St.
> Azusa, CA 91702
> (626) 969-4655
> (626) 812-0243 fax
>
> Greg Cardinal
>
> >>> kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net 03/13/02 08:10AM >>>
>
>
> >
> >This is where I'm headed as well.
> >
> >Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
> > This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
> >If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
> >hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
> >possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
> >adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
> >turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
> >finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
>
> OK Guys,
>
> I have heard the arguments Jack made about hub width before & somewhere in
> the old BPA newsletters there is an article about making wide hubs from
> aluminum.
>
> Can't argue with that, makes great sense, but my question is, what is the
> minimum practical diameter for a set of spoke wheels, considering that the
> spokes need to be some minumum length to work & you'd need a hub big
> engough to accomodate brakes? I like the esthetics of spoke wheels, but
> also of the cub-style gear.
>
> I got a set of Goodyear 6 x 6.00 wheels with my project, sans
> brakes. I may
> well just use those since I can get the old-stlye brakes easily enough; I
> have heard that these brakes could have problems, however?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner
>
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Kip,
While I can't give you a definitive answer on minimum practical diameter of spoked
wheels I can tell you that 18 or 19 inch wheels with 3.25 or 3.50 tires have
a very nice proportional look to them.
As the diameter of the rim gets smaller you will need to consider the angle at
which the spokes mate with the rim.
A quick call to Buchanans should give you an answer.
Greg Cardinal
>>> kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net 03/13/02 08:10AM >>>
>
>This is where I'm headed as well.
>
>Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
> This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
>If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
>hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
>possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
>adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
>turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
>finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
OK Guys,
I have heard the arguments Jack made about hub width before & somewhere in
the old BPA newsletters there is an article about making wide hubs from
aluminum.
Can't argue with that, makes great sense, but my question is, what is the
minimum practical diameter for a set of spoke wheels, considering that the
spokes need to be some minumum length to work & you'd need a hub big
engough to accomodate brakes? I like the esthetics of spoke wheels, but
also of the cub-style gear.
I got a set of Goodyear 6 x 6.00 wheels with my project, sans brakes. I may
well just use those since I can get the old-stlye brakes easily enough; I
have heard that these brakes could have problems, however?
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
DJ,
You basically want the wing to stall just as the airplane reaches its
3-point attitude. Most airfoils stall at an angle of attack of around 15
degrees., so if you can keep the angle of attack at that or less, it should
be OK. Remember that the wing has an angle of incidence of 2 degrees (at
least on a Piet - I don't know what Grega uses), so if the longeron is at 11
degrees , the angle of attack is 11+2=13 degrees.
Many planes, including my Cessna 140, are not quite stalled at the 3 point
position (Champs are that way as well). This was probably done as much as
anything to provide better visibility over the nose on the ground. However,
I learned to fly taildraggers in a J-3 Cub, which is fully stalled in the
3-pont attitude, and find it frustrating to try to get a good three point
fully stalled landing in my 140. I usually end up landing tailwheel first,
which then rapidly decreases the angle of attack and available lift and the
whole airplane comes down with a mighty "Whump" on the main gear.
It is possible to make nice smooth landings in planes with low deck angles,
but they can't be landed as slowly as they could if they had taller main
gear.
If the main gear is too tall, the opposite problem occurs, and the plane is
always landed on the main gear, and then the tailwheel will drop. If you
try to make a three point landing, the wing will stall before you get the
tail low enough, and if your mains aren't already on the ground, it will
fall out of the sky.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
I did some more math on heights and angles.
I found that a stock GN-1 with J-3 style wheels will sit at about an 11
degree deck angle (ground to top longeron)
If I put 18" motorcycle wheels the deck angle is about 13 degrees. a two
degree difference.
I imported some pictures of straight axle motorcycle wheeled Piets into my
3D program. Taking into acount the parralax and perspective of the photo I
was able to determine that they were any where from 10 to 15 degrees
depending on the aircraft. Seems like deck angle isn't too critical as
long as it within the 10 to 15 degree range.
BUT, I have never flown a tail dragger before so I have no experience in
what all that means.
Would there really be a drastic difference in landing style or handling if I
used an 18" motorcyle rim instead of a smaller wheel on a J-3 gear?
help?!
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
-----Original Message-----
From: DJ Vegh
What is the distance between the ground and the bottom of the fuse directly
under the axle centerline of the landing gear?
Pieters,
I believe the 1934 plans show 25", could be off an inch or so.
I am building my landing gear cub style with motorcycle type wheels. I got
19" rims, sounds like the same ones Jack got. Bought the biggest tires I
could find and they are 26" rubber to rubber, so I am making my gear to put
the bottom of the fuselage at 26". I got some alum off E-bay that is suppose
to be like 7075 which I plan to turn my hubs from. Plan to use disc breaks.
I have some 4130 hubs, 36 spoke like Howard Henderson's(no breaks) bought at
Brodhead for $65.00 4 or 5 years ago. Will sell for the same.
Skip in Atlanta looking forward to Sun n Fun and the wood shop.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
>
>
>DJ,
>
>You basically want the wing to stall just as the airplane reaches its
>3-point attitude. Most airfoils stall at an angle of attack of around 15
>degrees., so if you can keep the angle of attack at that or less, it should
>be OK. Remember that the wing has an angle of incidence of 2 degrees (at
>least on a Piet - I don't know what Grega uses), so if the longeron is at 11
>degrees , the angle of attack is 11+2=13 degrees.
>
>Many planes, including my Cessna 140, are not quite stalled at the 3 point
>position (Champs are that way as well). This was probably done as much as
>anything to provide better visibility over the nose on the ground. However,
>I learned to fly taildraggers in a J-3 Cub, which is fully stalled in the
>3-pont attitude, and find it frustrating to try to get a good three point
>fully stalled landing in my 140. I usually end up landing tailwheel first,
>which then rapidly decreases the angle of attack and available lift and the
>whole airplane comes down with a mighty "Whump" on the main gear.
>
>It is possible to make nice smooth landings in planes with low deck angles,
>but they can't be landed as slowly as they could if they had taller main
>gear.
>
>If the main gear is too tall, the opposite problem occurs, and the plane is
>always landed on the main gear, and then the tailwheel will drop. If you
>try to make a three point landing, the wing will stall before you get the
>tail low enough, and if your mains aren't already on the ground, it will
>fall out of the sky.
>
>
>Jack
Guys,
18" wheels, cub gear & vortex generators on the wing, maybe? :). Wonder
what the stall speed would be?
Cheers!
Kip
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
In a message dated 3/12/02 9:54:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
aircamper(at)imagedv.com writes:
> anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
> axle?
>
>
I use 18 inch alum alloy rims (125cc dirt bike rear rims) with homemade 5 1/2
inch wide hubs on bronze oilite bushings on my split gear, A powered
aircamper, with 1 1/2 inch dia axle. BHP built the Velie radial powered
aircamper this way. That is where I got the idea. The tire size is on my
plane 3.00 x 18. You could compare the gear geometry and determine the
suitability. I our area, the spokes for building this type wheel are getting
hard to find and the ones available are very expensive (about $200). On my
second aircamper (which I built with Chuck Gantzer) we went back to the air
wheel. The weight difference between these two sets of wheel assemblies is
about three pounds per wheel, the spoke type being heavier. No brakes on
either plane so can't help on those. Both airplanes handle the same on the
ground to me, even though there is indeed a 5 ,or so, inch deck height
difference.
Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
I am back. Theanks for the support fellas.
Maybe we can send twinboom down the hill from where he lives to investigate
buchanan rims and spokes first hand and report back on what they have.
Doug?
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
McNeel, Jr.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
It seems to me the hardest part to all of this is finding a hub wide enough.
It would be nice if there was one out there stock, such as used on a big
Harley. I understand that Ken Perkins makes hubs, anyone else?
I am going with the straight gear, I just like the look of it, and 18-19"
wheels. I need to think about getting some made up soon.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
> Cardinal
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
>
>
> Kip,
> While I can't give you a definitive answer on minimum practical
> diameter of spoked wheels I can tell you that 18 or 19 inch
> wheels with 3.25 or 3.50 tires have a very nice proportional look to them.
> As the diameter of the rim gets smaller you will need to consider
> the angle at which the spokes mate with the rim.
> A quick call to Buchanans should give you an answer.
> Website: www.buchananspokes.com/
> 805 W. 8th St.
> Azusa, CA 91702
> (626) 969-4655
> (626) 812-0243 fax
>
> Greg Cardinal
>
> >>> kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net 03/13/02 08:10AM >>>
>
>
> >
> >This is where I'm headed as well.
> >
> >Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
> > This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
> >If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
> >hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
> >possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
> >adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
> >turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
> >finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
>
> OK Guys,
>
> I have heard the arguments Jack made about hub width before & somewhere in
> the old BPA newsletters there is an article about making wide hubs from
> aluminum.
>
> Can't argue with that, makes great sense, but my question is, what is the
> minimum practical diameter for a set of spoke wheels, considering that the
> spokes need to be some minumum length to work & you'd need a hub big
> engough to accomodate brakes? I like the esthetics of spoke wheels, but
> also of the cub-style gear.
>
> I got a set of Goodyear 6 x 6.00 wheels with my project, sans
> brakes. I may
> well just use those since I can get the old-stlye brakes easily enough; I
> have heard that these brakes could have problems, however?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner
>
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
DJ,
Thats what type of setup that I have although I haven't flown it yet. Built
the hubs myself, and used Harley spokes with 18" rims. I think mine look
good. If you or anyone else is interested I can send infro. on all the
mat'ls.
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
> anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
> axle?
>
> I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
> to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
>
> ideas appreciated.
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1 Builder
> www.raptoronline.com
> N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Jack,
One of the movie clips that I downlosded from Rich DeCosta's site shows a
Piet with the split gear and big wheels doing what seems to be a nice 3
point. Thats the setup that I have, but I haven't flown it yet.
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
> DJ,
>
> If you look in the EAA Wood book, there is a picture of a split axle
> Pietenpol with wire wheels. It is towards the back of the book, in a
> chapter called "Why not Build a Wooden Airplane?" I don't remember the
page
> number and the book is downstairs in my shop.
>
> You would have to modify the plans somewhat to change the height of the
gear
> unless you wanted to always make wheel landings - otherwise the Cub type
> gear with such tall wheels would require too high an angle of attack at
> landing, and you could not 3-point it.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:53 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
> anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
> axle?
>
> I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
> to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
>
> ideas appreciated.
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1 Builder
> www.raptoronline.com
> N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Door in fuselage |
Gary,
I have just dropped in the mail to you a copy of a page from the old
Buckeye Pietenpol newletter showing how one builder installed a door in
the front cockpit of his steel tube Piet. When I decided to put a door
in my plane which is an original wooden fuselage, I used this general
layout to move the loads arount the door.
If I might make an editorial comment here, normally you would be better
off to follow the original plans and not change them at all unless there
is a real need to do so. In my case, I wanted to allow for easy access
to the front cockpit for my wife as we are both in our 70s and she has a
knee problem. However, you should realize that the torsional rigidity
of the fuselage is compromised slightly, and weight and complexity are
added. I did a quick stress analysis of the layout and believe it is
safe, but unnecessary unless you really have to.
John Dilatush NX114D, "Just got medical back after my heart bypass 2
years ago, wonderful feeling!"
Salida Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Door in fuselage |
Hi John,
Congrats on the medical! I've been to your website and am very impressed
with the pictures of your plane. It's going to be a beautiful Piet.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Dilatush
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Door in fuselage
Gary,
I have just dropped in the mail to you a copy of a page from the old
Buckeye Pietenpol newletter showing how one builder installed a door in
the front cockpit of his steel tube Piet. When I decided to put a door
in my plane which is an original wooden fuselage, I used this general
layout to move the loads arount the door.
If I might make an editorial comment here, normally you would be better
off to follow the original plans and not change them at all unless there
is a real need to do so. In my case, I wanted to allow for easy access
to the front cockpit for my wife as we are both in our 70s and she has a
knee problem. However, you should realize that the torsional rigidity
of the fuselage is compromised slightly, and weight and complexity are
added. I did a quick stress analysis of the layout and believe it is
safe, but unnecessary unless you really have to.
John Dilatush NX114D, "Just got medical back after my heart bypass 2
years ago, wonderful feeling!"
Salida Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Not to take TwinBoom's ticket....I live about three miles from Buchanan, and
have had them do a set of Honda Fifty mountain bike rims for me, replacing the
stock spokes with 9 gauge stainless steel spokes, each good for 1000 pounds
pull. If anyone needs some help with them, let me know. They do good work and
are easy to work with.
Cheers,
~Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Group-----Welcome back Chris B.
DJ---I went out an measured a Cub and Champ deck angle before determining
how long my wood gear legs would be to support the straight axle
setup. Turns out as I recall these taildraggers set at about the 11-12
degree angle so that's what I set my fuselage angle
at. I then built the gear to fit. I assume you could do some cutting and
welding to accommodate your J-3 gear if needed. Forward VISIBILITY will
be reduced with increased deck angle by a bit. I raised my seat two
inches (which by the way was too much)
for better vis and that is nice. One inch would have been enough. Again
this is a thing of
how long is your torso ? If you are a tall guy and you've got a big deck
angle and high tailwheel then getting your leg over the cockpit side might
not be as big a problem as it
is for us 5' 10" guys. My wheels are 19" alum. x 3.5" . Any 18, 19, or
20 inch rim
would look just fine. Frank Pavliga had 18 inch rims on his and when he
saw mine he
went out and made up a set of 19" rim. Rim envy or sumphin:)) I made up
my own hubs
from some stainless pipe and 1/8" thick stainless flanges cut from squares
on a lathe.
Oilite flanged bronze bushings on each side of the hub to fit the 4130
axle. Frankie P.
told me to file a few grooves (like three, 120 deg apart about) on the od
of the bushings
and then wipe them and your wheel hub w/ MEK or suitable solvent and epoxy
them in
place so they rotate w/ the hub and not stay fixed on the axle if you have
too tight
of clearance. My brake discs for the Comet go-kart
brakes http://www.gokartsupply.com/partcat.htm were home made and
bolted to the wheel flanges. The homemade discs are 7" in diam I
believe. Enough to slow me down on
pavement for turn-offs or when pulling up to fuel pumps, run-up, etc.
You'd be surprised how little you use brakes on a grass runway. You can
feel the
deceleration upon touchdown. Sometimes if I am long or a bit fast I just do an
intentional wheel landing for the drag effect of the grass. Anyway, I ramble.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | stock cycle wheels |
Jack Phillips is correct about stock cycle wheels not being designed to
take the side loads that a ground loop or
crossed-up landing might create-----but there are a number of guys using
them successfully like Wil Graff of Wadsworth, Ohio, Brian Kenny of
Ontario, and I think Mike Brusilow over in NY State. I'm sure some mods
had to be
done to the bushing size/axle end...but from what I could tell these guys
were running stock wheels and
brakes. The point is well taken though----make your own hubs wide if you
can. About 6" or so.
Also the mo-cycle hubs don't look very antique airplane but the home made
hubs do. Whatever works for you best
though and is safe.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
I've been playing around with different types of fabric cement. I
covered a mock vert fin using contact cement from Dap Weldwood.It's a
water based neoprene rubber formula with no fumes like poly-tac or
poly-brush. After 24 hours this stuff seems to be sticking as good as
Poly-tac. Has anyone tried anything like this? I know Cecobond is a
waterbased product. I'm planning on using latex paint and would really
like not having to deal with MEK and other toxic products. Mark McKellar
( in sunny 75 degee Northeast Tx.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Wait a minute . . . I gotta disagree here. First of all, in the math below
you cannot figure the angle of attack like that because you are assuming
that the relative airflow remains constant and parallel with the ground
which is not so.
A tailwheel airplane lands much, much better three-point with smaller
diameter wheels rather than larger. I used to have 8.50x10 low pressure
wheels on my Travel Air, but a couple of years ago I installed the large
30x5 disc wheels. Went from a complete pussycat to land into a thing with a
mind of its own. A lot of very experienced antiquers have scratched their
heads over an explanation, because not many people have had a lot of hours
on an airplane with one size wheel (1100) and then changed that airplane to
the disc wheels so that a direct comparison could be made. I still have not
heard a thorough explanation I liked.
Gene
(yes I was referring to the Weldwood plastic resin glue)
I do not think there has been a single subject that has been discussed on
this list more than wire wheels, how to build them, how to spoke them, how
big, etc., etc. Some of you might want to look in the archives.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
> >
> >
> >DJ,
> >
> >You basically want the wing to stall just as the airplane reaches its
> >3-point attitude. Most airfoils stall at an angle of attack of around 15
> >degrees., so if you can keep the angle of attack at that or less, it
should
> >be OK. Remember that the wing has an angle of incidence of 2 degrees (at
> >least on a Piet - I don't know what Grega uses), so if the longeron is at
11
> >degrees , the angle of attack is 11+2=13 degrees.
> >
> >Many planes, including my Cessna 140, are not quite stalled at the 3
point
> >position (Champs are that way as well). This was probably done as much
as
> >anything to provide better visibility over the nose on the ground.
However,
> >I learned to fly taildraggers in a J-3 Cub, which is fully stalled in the
> >3-pont attitude, and find it frustrating to try to get a good three point
> >fully stalled landing in my 140. I usually end up landing tailwheel
first,
> >which then rapidly decreases the angle of attack and available lift and
the
> >whole airplane comes down with a mighty "Whump" on the main gear.
> >
> >It is possible to make nice smooth landings in planes with low deck
angles,
> >but they can't be landed as slowly as they could if they had taller main
> >gear.
> >
> >If the main gear is too tall, the opposite problem occurs, and the plane
is
> >always landed on the main gear, and then the tailwheel will drop. If you
> >try to make a three point landing, the wing will stall before you get the
> >tail low enough, and if your mains aren't already on the ground, it will
> >fall out of the sky.
> >
> >
> >Jack
>
> Guys,
>
> 18" wheels, cub gear & vortex generators on the wing, maybe? :). Wonder
> what the stall speed would be?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Just to add another option that I don't think has ever been discussed.
We have a guy on our field with a pair of wire wheels made from a pair
of 6.00x6 wheels, with brakes, where he drilled through the wheel bead
for the spokes and used a motorcycle rim (I assume he had Buchanan's
make the spokes) (for what it's worth, Buchanan's charged me $80 per
wheel to make new spokes for my wire wheels). They look surprisingly
good.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Gene, normally you are right and the airflow is not necessarily parallel to
the ground. However, assuming that the plane is making a smooth landing,
it's downward velocity is almost zero and is negligible compared to its
forward speed. Also, in ground effect (which is defined as when the wing is
within one wingspan length to the ground), there is no upward flow of the
air just ahead of the wing's leading edge as there is when it is out of
ground effect. These two thing s combined make the angle of the wing with
respect to the ground pretty close to its actual angle of attack.
When you changed from 8.50 x 10 to 30 x 5 wheels, did the angle of the
aircraft with respect to the ground change? How did the outside diameters
of the two wheels compare? If that angle changed, I'm not surprised if the
ground handling changed.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
Wait a minute . . . I gotta disagree here. First of all, in the math below
you cannot figure the angle of attack like that because you are assuming
that the relative airflow remains constant and parallel with the ground
which is not so.
A tailwheel airplane lands much, much better three-point with smaller
diameter wheels rather than larger. I used to have 8.50x10 low pressure
wheels on my Travel Air, but a couple of years ago I installed the large
30x5 disc wheels. Went from a complete pussycat to land into a thing with a
mind of its own. A lot of very experienced antiquers have scratched their
heads over an explanation, because not many people have had a lot of hours
on an airplane with one size wheel (1100) and then changed that airplane to
the disc wheels so that a direct comparison could be made. I still have not
heard a thorough explanation I liked.
Gene
(yes I was referring to the Weldwood plastic resin glue)
I do not think there has been a single subject that has been discussed on
this list more than wire wheels, how to build them, how to spoke them, how
big, etc., etc. Some of you might want to look in the archives.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
> >
> >
> >DJ,
> >
> >You basically want the wing to stall just as the airplane reaches its
> >3-point attitude. Most airfoils stall at an angle of attack of around 15
> >degrees., so if you can keep the angle of attack at that or less, it
should
> >be OK. Remember that the wing has an angle of incidence of 2 degrees (at
> >least on a Piet - I don't know what Grega uses), so if the longeron is at
11
> >degrees , the angle of attack is 11+2=13 degrees.
> >
> >Many planes, including my Cessna 140, are not quite stalled at the 3
point
> >position (Champs are that way as well). This was probably done as much
as
> >anything to provide better visibility over the nose on the ground.
However,
> >I learned to fly taildraggers in a J-3 Cub, which is fully stalled in the
> >3-pont attitude, and find it frustrating to try to get a good three point
> >fully stalled landing in my 140. I usually end up landing tailwheel
first,
> >which then rapidly decreases the angle of attack and available lift and
the
> >whole airplane comes down with a mighty "Whump" on the main gear.
> >
> >It is possible to make nice smooth landings in planes with low deck
angles,
> >but they can't be landed as slowly as they could if they had taller main
> >gear.
> >
> >If the main gear is too tall, the opposite problem occurs, and the plane
is
> >always landed on the main gear, and then the tailwheel will drop. If you
> >try to make a three point landing, the wing will stall before you get the
> >tail low enough, and if your mains aren't already on the ground, it will
> >fall out of the sky.
> >
> >
> >Jack
>
> Guys,
>
> 18" wheels, cub gear & vortex generators on the wing, maybe? :). Wonder
> what the stall speed would be?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Interesting. I had thought about doing that, but the only aircraft wheels I
have available are magnesium and I didn't want to try to machine them. I
was afraid there wouldn't be enough "meat" around the spoke holes to handle
the spoke tension.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wire wheels
Just to add another option that I don't think has ever been discussed.
We have a guy on our field with a pair of wire wheels made from a pair
of 6.00x6 wheels, with brakes, where he drilled through the wheel bead
for the spokes and used a motorcycle rim (I assume he had Buchanan's
make the spokes) (for what it's worth, Buchanan's charged me $80 per
wheel to make new spokes for my wire wheels). They look surprisingly
good.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Carlson struts have arrived |
just a note to let those of you interested know that I received my aluminum
struts from Carlson today.
Upon looking at them with my own eyes and putting a mic to them I'm further
assured that the strength of them is more than adequate. I have a little
extra fall-off for those of you who want a sample. Just drop me an email
off-list.
They are high quality. very nice.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1 Builder
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Please send info. I will post it on my site as well. If you draw it and send
it, I can post that too.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
> evans
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:08 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
>
>
> DJ,
> Thats what type of setup that I have although I haven't flown it
> yet. Built
> the hubs myself, and used Harley spokes with 18" rims. I think mine look
> good. If you or anyone else is interested I can send infro. on all the
> mat'ls.
> walt
> NX140DL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
> >
> > anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead
> of straight
> > axle?
> >
> > I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an
> easy solution
> > to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
> >
> > ideas appreciated.
> >
> > DJ Vegh
> > Mesa, AZ
> > GN-1 Builder
> > www.raptoronline.com
> > N74DV
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Kip,
If you're referring to the old Goodyear mechanical brakes, you'll want
to be careful. They work great as long as adjusted properly, but the
rotor rides on splines inside the hub, contained by weird little springs
and securing metal "buttons". You have to keep up with spring breakage
and button loss which happens and these parts are hard to find and
expensive. If you can find a supply reasonably, stock up and have at
it, I have no complaints with the braking performance. But if you loose
more than two buttons by being neglectful, the rotor can ride out of the
hub and jam, which will destroy your hub.
Larry
Kip & Beth Gardner wrote:
>
>
>>
>>This is where I'm headed as well.
>>
>>Ideally, I'd like to find a pair of light motorcycle wheels with brakes.
>>This may not happen, but when I get to this point I'll document it.
>>If light alloy wheels exist, the next challenge will be brakes. I'm
>>hoping to use a cable system, so mechanical brakes would be okay,
>>possibly the go cart units Mike found, if the stock brakes aren't
>>adaptable. Next comes the bearing. The hub will probably need to be
>>turned to take a larger size. You can see this all comes down to lucky
>>finds in the junkyard which don't happen to often.
>>
>
>OK Guys,
>
>I have heard the arguments Jack made about hub width before & somewhere in
>the old BPA newsletters there is an article about making wide hubs from
>aluminum.
>
>Can't argue with that, makes great sense, but my question is, what is the
>minimum practical diameter for a set of spoke wheels, considering that the
>spokes need to be some minumum length to work & you'd need a hub big
>engough to accomodate brakes? I like the esthetics of spoke wheels, but
>also of the cub-style gear.
>
>I got a set of Goodyear 6 x 6.00 wheels with my project, sans brakes. I may
>well just use those since I can get the old-stlye brakes easily enough; I
>have heard that these brakes could have problems, however?
>
>Cheers!
>
>Kip Gardner
>
>
>426 Schneider St. SE
>North Canton, OH 44720
>(330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear |
Maybe we are rehashing this, but I think it's been good to get weight
info and reports from some using tall wheels.
A few last minor points though. Motorcycle wheels can handle reasonable
side loads, sidecar people have done this for years, but you don't get
sloppy about it and motorcycles rarely corner in a crosswind on one wheel.
Width is good in this case, but whatever you do don't make up radially
laced wheels especially if using brakes. Hope I'm not treading on toes
here, but know this one well.
Looks like Buchannan will get a call from me, thanks guys!
Larry
Jack Phillips wrote:
>
>DJ,
>
>If you look in the EAA Wood book, there is a picture of a split axle
>Pietenpol with wire wheels. It is towards the back of the book, in a
>chapter called "Why not Build a Wooden Airplane?" I don't remember the page
>number and the book is downstairs in my shop.
>
>You would have to modify the plans somewhat to change the height of the gear
>unless you wanted to always make wheel landings - otherwise the Cub type
>gear with such tall wheels would require too high an angle of attack at
>landing, and you could not 3-point it.
>
>Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
>Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:53 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: motorcycle wheels on J-3 gear
>
>
>anyone sen motorcycle wire wheels on a J-3 style gear instead of straight
>axle?
>
>I've got a J-3 gear with 1.25" axle and am trying to find an easy solution
>to putting on 18" motorcycle wheels.
>
>ideas appreciated.
>
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1 Builder
>www.raptoronline.com
>N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
Have followed the discussion of angle of aircraft at rest with interest. I
too went out with my protractor level and discovered ole 41CC is snugly
perched at 9 1/2 o. I also measured my engine (crank shaft) angle. Guess what
5 1/2 o. Thats a downthrust of foe degrees. Being the greatest Tuba player
outside the fatherland, frankly I don't know my a-- from 5th base on these
technicals. Please, some of you Purdue Engineer grads or any other school
advise me about this engine angle. I've brought this up several times on the
net but the conversation usually drifts off to wheels, spokes, materials used
for sticks etc. Hope I can create some discussion about this engine angle
stuff. I have a volunteer test pilot. A real nice guy. And I really don't
want him to experience any more problems than necessary. Hell, funerals are
more expensive than Piets.
Corky in La eating MB&Spaghetti tonite.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Deep thoughts |
Corky and all,
Just a few days ago I was reading the "Flying and glider manual" and Bernard
said something like,,,"I angled the engine down, because since the plane
flies with a positive angle of attack, I still want the engine to pull in
the direction that the plane is going., not in the way it's pointing" ( this
is no way a quote, only what I thought he was saying)
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Deep thoughts
>
> Pieters,
> Have followed the discussion of angle of aircraft at rest with interest. I
> too went out with my protractor level and discovered ole 41CC is snugly
> perched at 9 1/2 o. I also measured my engine (crank shaft) angle. Guess
what
> 5 1/2 o. Thats a downthrust of foe degrees. Being the greatest Tuba player
> outside the fatherland, frankly I don't know my a-- from 5th base on these
> technicals. Please, some of you Purdue Engineer grads or any other school
> advise me about this engine angle. I've brought this up several times on
the
> net but the conversation usually drifts off to wheels, spokes, materials
used
> for sticks etc. Hope I can create some discussion about this engine angle
> stuff. I have a volunteer test pilot. A real nice guy. And I really don't
> want him to experience any more problems than necessary. Hell, funerals
are
> more expensive than Piets.
> Corky in La eating MB&Spaghetti tonite.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ws133b341" <ws133b341(at)cox.net> |
Doug Blackburn has a good idea in using a digital scale to get accurate
measurements when mixing epoxy. Those using T-88 should remember,
however, that while the correct resin-to-hardener proportion is 1:1 by
volume, it is 1:0.83 by weight.
Ted Tuckerman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Deep thoughts |
Corky...I set my Franklin mount up with a 1" drop in 22" like the plans
show for the model A mount and the Corvair mount and ended up reading 2 1/2
degrees on the protractor. I doubt that an extra 1 1/2 degrees would hurt
anything but I'm new at this stuff so you might run those numbers by one of
those engineerin' type guys for a second
opinion. Ed G.
>From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Deep thoughts
March 05, 2002 - March 14, 2002
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cm