Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cr
June 04, 2002 - July 11, 2002
I never got to meet him but had read his postings in the archives. I just wanted
to learn what happened.
-Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | History Question |
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Holcomb [mailto:ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com]
Were there any air campers with the Sky
Scout style gears?
Kevin,
I wanted to make my Air Camper L/G like the Scout, I did a bunch of thinking
about it and finely came to the opinion, that there would be too much stress
on the upper longerons.
The Scout has different geometry in the side diagonals, a cross strut, a
firewall and an 1/8" plywood top that all give support across the fuselage
at this point. The Air Camper on the other hand has nothing except the
middle of the front pit.
I am not an engineer and have had one A/P tech councilor tell me it is ok
anyway. I just think there was probably a reason Pietenpol had all that beef
at the upper end of the L/G shock struts.
I'm sure you could figure out a way to do the change, but it would be more
work and more weight.
Skip, thinking only 43 days till I leave for Brodhead.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)gregyotz.com> |
| Subject: | Covering Supplies and Material |
I have a few questions for everyone. I've decided to cover with
Poly-Fiber
and I have the book, video and I've went through the short course at
Sun-n-Fun.
Here are some questions:
Can I use the uncertified 2.7oz Dacron found in Aircraft and Spruce for
$3.65 per lineal ft (prt no. 09-00300) instead of the Poly-Fiber Fabric
brand? Seems like I was told by someone at Sun-N-Fun that ALL the
Dacron
was made at one place and the difference was some was inspected and some
wasn't.
Can I use the none-certified tapes and cords with this system?
And here is one for Doug or Chuck, is there anywhere in southern Kansas
to
buy covering supplies to get away from hazmat shipping charges?
I also have a Volksplane that I'm going to cover at the same time so
I'll
buy most everything twice, but because of my limited and spotty time to
work
on the projects, I wanted to by small amounts at a time instead of
everything I needed at once.
Also, what lengths of needles are recommended and is there anything else
to
get besides, iron, thermometer, brushes etc?
What kind of brushes should I get?
Greg
Gridley, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)gregyotz.com> |
| Subject: | Covering and Supplies |
I have a few questions for everyone. I've decided to cover with
Poly-Fiber and I have the book, video and I've went through the short
course at Sun-n-Fun.
Here are some questions:
Can I use the uncertified 2.7oz Dacron found in Aircraft and Spruce for
$3.65 per lineal ft (prt no. 09-00300) instead of the Poly-Fiber Fabric
brand? Seems like I was told by someone at Sun-N-Fun that ALL the
Dacron was made at one place and the difference was some was inspected
and some wasn't.
Can I use the none-certified tapes and cords with this system?
And here is one for Doug or Chuck, is there anywhere in southern Kansas
to buy covering supplies to get away from hazmat shipping charges?
I also have a Volksplane that I'm going to cover at the same time so
I'll buy most everything twice, but because of my limited and spotty
time to work on the projects, I wanted to by small amounts at a time
instead of everything I needed at once.
Also, what lengths of needles are recommended and is there anything else
to get besides, iron, thermometer, brushes etc?
What kind of brushes should I get?
Greg
Gridley, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craigo" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Covering and Supplies |
Greg - I have used both Polyfiber's certified dacron
and the non-certified kind. I am currently covering my
Duce with the non-certified, using all the other
Polyfiber products. I have had no problem with any of
it - dacron seems to be dacron!
As to the HazMat charges, it seems that if you are
having quarts shipped, there is no HazMat charge for up
to 4 quarts. Gallons in any quantity have to have the
charge added. So, have the supplier ship 2, 3, or 4
quart containers at a time.
Good luck, and good covering - it's actually fun!
Craig
"Greg Yotz" wrote
>
>
>
> I have a few questions for everyone. I've decided to
cover with
> Poly-Fiber and I have the book, video and I've went
through the short
> course at Sun-n-Fun.
>
>
> Here are some questions:
>
> Can I use the uncertified 2.7oz Dacron found in
Aircraft and Spruce for
> $3.65 per lineal ft (prt no. 09-00300) instead of the
Poly-Fiber Fabric
> brand? Seems like I was told by someone at Sun-N-Fun
that ALL the
> Dacron was made at one place and the difference was
some was inspected
> and some wasn't.
>
>
> Can I use the none-certified tapes and cords with
this system?
>
>
> And here is one for Doug or Chuck, is there anywhere
in southern Kansas
> to buy covering supplies to get away from hazmat
shipping charges?
>
>
> I also have a Volksplane that I'm going to cover at
the same time so
> I'll buy most everything twice, but because of my
limited and spotty
> time to work on the projects, I wanted to by small
amounts at a time
> instead of everything I needed at once.
>
>
> Also, what lengths of needles are recommended and is
there anything else
> to get besides, iron, thermometer, brushes etc?
>
>
> What kind of brushes should I get?
>
>
> Greg
Craig
Lake Worth, FL
Bakeng Duce NX96CW
PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
| Subject: | selling Corvair engine for a friend |
Posting for a friend,,,
Corvair engine with gear reduction
One of two built ( other is on Pietenpol in northern NJ, not flown yet)
10 hrs. since converted and major OH
roller rockers
magneto
Cub style prop hub, and with gear reduction, takes standard rotation
prop
(reduction is somewhere around 1.8:1 , and I think it runs around 3500
rpm with normal prop speed for high Horsepower out)
$2500.00
Built by licenced AP of many years in aviation.
and a builder of many planes
Did all the work/modifications on Leo Laudenschlager's plane the Leo
didn't do himself.
email me if interested
I had many pics of the tear down and assy process, but I lost them to a
computer collapse. I can get them , if interested.
walt
NX140DL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Covering and Supplies |
>
>
>
> Here are some questions:
>
> Can I use the uncertified 2.7oz Dacron found in
Aircraft and Spruce for
> $3.65 per lineal ft (prt no. 09-00300) instead of the
Poly-Fiber Fabric
> brand? Seems like I was told by someone at Sun-N-Fun
that ALL the
> Dacron was made at one place and the difference was
some was inspected
> and some wasn't.
>
>
> Can I use the none-certified tapes and cords with
this system?
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I used noncertified dacron . 14 years now, no problems.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
Followed the messages last week or before pertaining to shackles. I agree
that those catalog pieces ARE priced as if gold. Joe C gave me this solution
for the shackles. Go to West Marine or Home Depot or any store of that type
and look for 1/2 in eye straps in the cable department. They look like the
sign of omega. Vice the round part and bend the two legs straight down. You
now have a shackle, stainless steel with a hole for your pin. And they don't
cost an arm and a leg. About 75c each but you have to buy two. These are the
ONLY shackles in my entire Piet
Corky in La spraying last coat of Brush tomorrow, Poly Spray on Thursday.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Swirly aluminium.... |
I always understood that the purpose for the "burnishing" or "machining" or
"machine turned" swirls was that the grooves would hold oil and prevent
corrosion, so if you spray some light oil on and wipe it off it should
protect. I would think that the Spirit was probably varnished at some later
date as an attempt at preservation, but I do not know if that is the case.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Conkling <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Swirly aluminium....
>
> Spar varnish (or equal) was used on the nose of the Spirit of St. Louis
> swirls -- as a result, there is a "golden" hue to the Alum. as it sits in
> NASM.
>
> Also, the "quick & dirty" way (used by Fokker in WW1) was to just "sand"
the
> cowl all over with a grinder or dual action sander (no nice rows -- just
> random stuff! ;-)
>
> Mike C.
> Pretty Prairie, KS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Swirly aluminium....
>
>
>
> >
> > EVERYTHING has to be protected here in Florida. One of the prices to
pay
> > for living in "Paradise". Couldn't a clear coat or clear lacquer or
> > something like that be sprayed on?
> >
> > Ted B in Naples
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <Doug413(at)aol.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Swirly aluminium....
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 6/2/02 5:14:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > dickmarg(at)peganet.com writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Doug,
> > > > After the swirling, do you use anything as a protectorant to guard
> > against
> > > > corrosion?
> > > >
> > > > DickG. in Ft. Myers
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi Dick,
> > >
> > > Good to hear from you. I don't use any form of corrosion protection
> here
> > in
> > > Kansas, but I suppose a clear alodine could be applied. Doug Bryant
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
<< the archives list an outfit in wichita falls texas that did a dandy
radiator job for a reasonable price for one of the listers >>
Yes, Chris, that's correct...sorry I lost the name of the lister who
inquired. It was John Greenlee who had it done originally, and I think they
have done several others since, including mine. If someone can identify who
posted the inquiry, I'll go through my records and post the details. I seem
to recall it was Bell Mfg. Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Covering Supplies and Material |
Greg,
Yes, you can use uncertified Dacron for everything.
The length of needle needed is about 12" (I don't have one handy, but it is
the long one sold by ACS). I bought the cheaply and can't see why you would
want to pay any more. I use about a 3" one for going thru the tail feathers
since they are so thin. Be sure to get one with a little curve at the
pointy end because that is needed for sending the cord under the Dacron and
coming out the next hole.
Don't forget the reinforcing tape. 1/2" wide for the Piet.
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)gregyotz.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Supplies and Material
>
>
> I have a few questions for everyone. I've decided to cover with
> Poly-Fiber
> and I have the book, video and I've went through the short course at
> Sun-n-Fun.
>
>
> Here are some questions:
>
> Can I use the uncertified 2.7oz Dacron found in Aircraft and Spruce for
> $3.65 per lineal ft (prt no. 09-00300) instead of the Poly-Fiber Fabric
> brand? Seems like I was told by someone at Sun-N-Fun that ALL the
> Dacron
> was made at one place and the difference was some was inspected and some
> wasn't.
>
>
> Can I use the none-certified tapes and cords with this system?
>
>
> And here is one for Doug or Chuck, is there anywhere in southern Kansas
> to
> buy covering supplies to get away from hazmat shipping charges?
>
>
> I also have a Volksplane that I'm going to cover at the same time so
> I'll
> buy most everything twice, but because of my limited and spotty time to
> work
> on the projects, I wanted to by small amounts at a time instead of
> everything I needed at once.
>
>
> Also, what lengths of needles are recommended and is there anything else
> to
> get besides, iron, thermometer, brushes etc?
>
>
> What kind of brushes should I get?
>
>
> Greg
>
> Gridley, KS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Oh my gosh Larry. A VW/Audi radiator? That is probably the problem. It
knew it wasn't an "authentic" Pietenpol and got all flustered.
Good luck on flying off that time. Great isn't it?
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: radiator
>
> Gang-
> Does anyone (Doug) have or know of a radiator that is available for an "A> "
Piet? My engine seems to be running hot and all I can come up with is t> hat my
VW/Audi radiator isn't up to the task. It was the recommended radi> ator in
the 70's BPANews but I am not having good results with it.
> I know there was a Kapler radiator for sale at B'head last year or the ye> ar
before, does anyone remember whose it was?
> Barring the above, does anyone know of a radiator building shop that is q> uick
and reasonable (read:cheap!)?
> Still logging the hours and fixing little bugs. Looks like my time will b> e
flown off at the exact moment that I head for Brodhead. Amazing how tha> t works...
>
> Larry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Covering Supplies and Material |
Most people make their own needles from a piece of welding rod. Just heat
up one end of an appropriate length and hammer it til flat and then drill a
hole for the eye. Sharpen the other end on the grinder and you are all set.
Some folks like the end kinked a little. Whatever.
chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ted
Brousseau
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Covering Supplies and Material
Greg,
Yes, you can use uncertified Dacron for everything.
The length of needle needed is about 12" (I don't have one handy, but it is
the long one sold by ACS). I bought the cheaply and can't see why you would
want to pay any more. I use about a 3" one for going thru the tail feathers
since they are so thin. Be sure to get one with a little curve at the
pointy end because that is needed for sending the cord under the Dacron and
coming out the next hole.
Don't forget the reinforcing tape. 1/2" wide for the Piet.
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)gregyotz.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Supplies and Material
>
>
> I have a few questions for everyone. I've decided to cover with
> Poly-Fiber
> and I have the book, video and I've went through the short course at
> Sun-n-Fun.
>
>
> Here are some questions:
>
> Can I use the uncertified 2.7oz Dacron found in Aircraft and Spruce for
> $3.65 per lineal ft (prt no. 09-00300) instead of the Poly-Fiber Fabric
> brand? Seems like I was told by someone at Sun-N-Fun that ALL the
> Dacron
> was made at one place and the difference was some was inspected and some
> wasn't.
>
>
> Can I use the none-certified tapes and cords with this system?
>
>
> And here is one for Doug or Chuck, is there anywhere in southern Kansas
> to
> buy covering supplies to get away from hazmat shipping charges?
>
>
> I also have a Volksplane that I'm going to cover at the same time so
> I'll
> buy most everything twice, but because of my limited and spotty time to
> work
> on the projects, I wanted to by small amounts at a time instead of
> everything I needed at once.
>
>
> Also, what lengths of needles are recommended and is there anything else
> to
> get besides, iron, thermometer, brushes etc?
>
>
> What kind of brushes should I get?
>
>
> Greg
>
> Gridley, KS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Disney movie..Pietenpol |
Mike Cuy
I do not recall the name of the movie itself, but Disney did one that was
made for TV a number of years ago that is what you described. It starred Pat
O'Brien who played the part of an old, over the hill pilot and kids who found
an old plane which they all rebuilt and O'Brien then flew. The airplane used
for that picture started life as a Smith Miniplane which was prepared by the
late Jim Dewey at Santa Paula airport (Calif.) I loaned Jim three spare
Szekely cylinders from my Buhl Bull Pup to use on that plane. They were
mounted just for show with a Cont. 65 under the cowling. Jim recovered it to
appear like the fabric was tattered and torn. Some of it was shot at Santa
Paula..most at a nearby duster strip. I seem to recall that this was done in
the late 60's. Sorry for the rambling, but you did say it looked like a
Pietenpol !! Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DonanClara(at)aol.com |
Gang-
Does anyone (Doug) have or know of a radiator that is available for an
"A
" Piet? My engine seems to be running hot and all I can come up with is
t
hat my VW/Audi radiator isn't up to the task. It was the recommended
radi
ator in the 70's BPANews but I am not having good results with it.
I know there was a Kapler radiator for sale at B'head last year or the
ye
ar before, does anyone remember whose it was? >>
Larry... I located the info on the radiator that I had made by Bell Mfg.
(Same as the one they made for John Greenlee) I don't know what you would
consider a cheap price for a totally custom made radiator, but I paid $275.00
in1996 which I considered to be an excellent price. ( I'd hate to hear what
the Fisherman would have to say about that !!)
Details: Bell Mfg, 900 West Wise St., Bowie, Texas 76230-1079
1-800-433-0939
On my invoice, they designate the part # as NSTK
Good luck! Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Selling some Piet stuff |
Hello Doug--Where are you? ie how far from Oregon?
I plan to do an A engine in my Piet and am also looking for B carbs and
manifolds.
Thanks, Mac in Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: <Doug413(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Selling some Piet stuff
>
> Only one model B carb, three after market B's, one or two extra manifolds,
and a complete A engine ready for installation. Doug Bryant
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tommy & Carolyn" <TommyandCarolyn(at)centurytel.net> |
Hello Group,
I have a friend who is not on line that is selling his single place clipped
wing Challenger. His name is John Ernst from
De Ridder, LA. His phone is 337-249-7267 or 463-8332.
Tommy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Auto Fuel Additive |
Pieters,
I am in a quandary about using 100LL aviation fuel in an automobile
(Subaru) engine.
I read in an issue of "Contact" magazine about the Dragonfly built by
Reg Clarke where he used a Subaru engine and added a product called
"Amsoil PI" to each tank of 100LL so as to reduce the problem of lead
fouling. So I E-mailed an inquiry to the Amsoil people but didn't get a
reply. The product doesn't seem to be on their list of products either.
My question is: does anyone know of a similar product? How do you guys
using auto conversions such as Model A and Corvair handle the problem
when you go into an airport that doesn't have auto fuel?
John Dilatush, NX114D. Just waiting for the doublers on the wing struts
to be welded up so I can go fly the Piet!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Radiators at Bell Mfg. in Texas |
If anyone is having a Piet radiator made (between now and Brodhead) at Bell Mfg.
in Bowie, TX, I would be glad to swing by on my way to Brodhead and pick it
up for you. (Oh yeah, AND hand it over to you when I get there.....)
Jim Markle
Plano, TX
(gradually depleting my "box-o-gussets" and pre-cut rib material.....I can almost
feel the breeze in my face.....actually, I recently modified my assembly process
and now complete 2 ribs in the time it previously took to complete only
1. Dang, I better order wing covering material!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> |
Someone on another list I subscribe to asked about using motor gas in
A-65's. I took the time to write out a response and thought it might be of
interest here as well.
I am not a fuels expert, however I recently took a 3-day class by ASTM on
aviation fuel. After much complaining at work about not having any
technical training (and also having far too much training in the management
or quality concept of the moment) management selected a class for
powerplants engineers. I don't have any idea how they picked the class out,
but I suspect it was either the cheapest one offered or it sounded so
boreing that nobody would ever complain about the lack of technical training
again. It was fascinating (go figure).
I wasted a lot of the classes time asking questions to learn about your
exact question. Here is a summary:
To start with, fuel is very weird. It is too complicated to manufacture an
exact chemical compound that does what fuel does. In fact different barrels
of crude from different parts of the world mix up differently. As a result
fuel is not specified by what it is, it is specified by how it performs. In
short the industry has a number of performance tests, time has shown that
they are pretty good and fuel that passes those tests is acceptable for use
although the exact chemical makeup will vary widely.
The next part of the process is that the fuel is predominately distributed
by pipeline. Apparently there are several pipelines that stretch across the
U.S. For instance one pipeline (the colonial) stretches from Texas to
either New York or Chicago (I forget which.) Fuel is put into it at a
number of different places and taken out at another group of places. The
only reason it works is the fuel is constantly flowing through the pipe (it
only goes one way.) The strange part is multiple different fuels are in the
pipe at once (Jet-A, motor gas of different grades, home heating oil,
diesel, etc.) Imagine it as a convoy of different products going down a
road. Basically they have big slugs of each and they don't mix too much as
long as you keep the whole thing constantly moving. They are sequenced so
similar products are next to each other to make it less troublesome when the
inevitable fuel on the edge of each slug mixes with the fuel in the next
slug (no spacers, its just the next thing in the tube.) So imagine a slug
of cheap motor gas, then a slug of medium motor gas then a slug of expensive
motor gasoline then the medium stuff than the cheap stuff then something
like jet-A followed by kerosene and so on in a rotation that they find works
well. Here is the kicker, when a specific company puts fuel in that is of
a certain grade they put it into the middle of a slug (they wait until the
slug they want to add to comes by and then start adding fuel to the pipe.)
When they want to take out they wait until what they want comes by and they
take out of the middle. Thus, when a specific oil company puts fuel in at
one end, they have no way of getting their fuel out at the other end. It
works because they put stuff in that meets a specific spec and take stuff
out that meets the same spec. However the fuel that Texaco refines may very
well end up at the Exxon gas station. Hence the industries emphasis on
additives (i.e. Techron), they cant say their fuel is better due to
refining, because they cant sell you the stuff they refine. They can claim
its better cause they dumped some powder or a quart of something into the
tank though. If when they take the cheap grade gas out it tests too low on
octane they just mix in some of the stuff from the premium batch to bring it
up to the minimum levels.
100LL does not flow through the pipeline because the quantities are too
small. It is however shipped or barged around and mixed up in much the same
way. So when you buy gas, the important thing in my opinion is turnover
(you don't want some stuff that has been sitting around gathering water and
contamination) not brandname. Also, be aware that as a result of this
process the people you are buying gas from have little control over the
composition of their product.
Now for octane, 'isooctane isn't something that it is put in the gas. It is
a fuel that is run in a test engine (a goofy 1 cylinder engine that isn't
very much like your engine, but its a really old and established test so it
wont change.) Thus 100 octane is the test engine running 100% isooctane.
Ratings above 100 are measured different, but lets leave that alone as it
isn't important for a typical light aircraft. What it means is the fuel you
are using behaves like this test fuel with respect to knock. Think of it as
a knock index. You may know knock better as 'detonation', its the same
thing and is bad for your engine. Each engine requires a certain knock
index if you will, or else it will detonate. Anything above that does
nothing to add to the performance, in fact it may make the fuel more
volatile. They test the fuel for this characteristic because it is
important that the engine not detonate. Now, as long as your not detonating
you have enough 'octane' in the fuel. How much is required varies from
engine to engine. High compression ratio's and turbochargers require a much
higher octane than other fuels. The A-65 was invented long ago when fuel
was much lower octane than today's 100LL. 100LL is however required for
high compression turbocharged engines such as the TIO-540 (lest they
detonate.) Because airports don't want to add another fuel system (trucks,
tanks, etc) they force the recips to all use the same fuel.
High octane fuels did not come along until the late 30's. They were
developed for the raceplanes and the military. Primarily they allowed for
us to get a lot more power out of the same size engine than other countries
were able to extract. This development definitely had a lot to do with
America's success in the second world war.
From the point of view of an old fashioned engine the high octane is totally
wasted. What you do gain by purchasing 100LL is a fuel that has a very
strict quality system in place (have you ever heard of the service station
down the street filtering or sumping their fuel?) Aviation gasoline goes
through filters as it is delivered to the airport to remove contaminates and
again on the truck. The fuel in the storage tanks/truck/etc is sumped
regularly. The filters are for both particles and for entrained water.
Entrained water (water suspended in the fuel) is a concern as it can
condense out rapidly if the temperature drops (i.e. weather changes or you
climb to altitude.) The reason for the concern about alcohol is it is
hydroscopic (it really likes water) and will hold a much greater amount of
entrained water than gasoline without it. The STC the EAA got on motor fuel
requires you to be sure you don't have any alcohol in the fuel you use (not
exactly a reasonable requirement as you can see from the description of the
distribution system described above.) This quality system and assured lack
of alcohol is what you gain by buying 100LL. It is about a lot more than
octane.
One other benefit of 100LL is the lead. it can help with the lubrication.
100LL has about 4 times the lead the old 80 octane stuff the A-65 was
designed for. So, it would be a good idea to fuel up with 100LL every
fourth tank or so. If you go anywhere with your airplane you are bound to
buy some 100LL so this will probably take care of itself very nicely.
Thus, if you want to use motor gas it can be made to work. However if you
want a similar level of safety you will need a pretty sophisticated setup
for filtering and sumping the fuel. My recommendation is if you want to use
motor gas you need to do it in a big way: get yourself an epoxy lined drum,
put a sump in it, let it sit for a while before using it to allow any
entrained water to precipitate out and sump it religiously, and filter the
stuff coming out of it. Be aware that you have a higher risk of problems
with entrained water than if you are using aviation gasoline so be cognizant
of changes in temperature. The filter they airport uses to get out the
entrained water is fairly sophisticated and extremely expensive so your
home-made set up will probably lack this feature. If you keep your airplane
at an airport with fuel this is probably more work than it is worth.
However if their is no fuel on the field this may be worth the effort for
the convenience.
To answer your question I would not use additives in motor gas, however I
would take great pains to develop a good distribution/filtering system.
Additives are not regulated or tested. They do not have any associated
performance standards. So more or less, who knows what they will do for or
to you. This is not completely true for several jet fuel additives that
serve very important purposes for people that have very specific problems or
operational requirements, but once again that isn't a Pietenpol issue
either.
I hope this was not more detail than you wanted. Once again, this is not a
subject that I am an expert in so evaluate it's merits for yourself.
Best Regards,
Kevin Holcomb
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
Thanks Kevin
A very good description of fuels.
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin
Holcomb
Subject: Pietenpol-List: MOGAS
Someone on another list I subscribe to asked about using motor gas in
A-65's. I took the time to write out a response and thought it might be of
interest here as well.
I am not a fuels expert, however I recently took a 3-day class by ASTM on
aviation fuel. After much complaining at work about not having any
technical training (and also having far too much training in the management
or quality concept of the moment) management selected a class for
powerplants engineers. I don't have any idea how they picked the class out,
but I suspect it was either the cheapest one offered or it sounded so
boreing that nobody would ever complain about the lack of technical training
again. It was fascinating (go figure).
I wasted a lot of the classes time asking questions to learn about your
exact question. Here is a summary:
To start with, fuel is very weird. It is too complicated to manufacture an
exact chemical compound that does what fuel does. In fact different barrels
of crude from different parts of the world mix up differently. As a result
fuel is not specified by what it is, it is specified by how it performs. In
short the industry has a number of performance tests, time has shown that
they are pretty good and fuel that passes those tests is acceptable for use
although the exact chemical makeup will vary widely.
The next part of the process is that the fuel is predominately distributed
by pipeline. Apparently there are several pipelines that stretch across the
U.S. For instance one pipeline (the colonial) stretches from Texas to
either New York or Chicago (I forget which.) Fuel is put into it at a
number of different places and taken out at another group of places. The
only reason it works is the fuel is constantly flowing through the pipe (it
only goes one way.) The strange part is multiple different fuels are in the
pipe at once (Jet-A, motor gas of different grades, home heating oil,
diesel, etc.) Imagine it as a convoy of different products going down a
road. Basically they have big slugs of each and they don't mix too much as
long as you keep the whole thing constantly moving. They are sequenced so
similar products are next to each other to make it less troublesome when the
inevitable fuel on the edge of each slug mixes with the fuel in the next
slug (no spacers, its just the next thing in the tube.) So imagine a slug
of cheap motor gas, then a slug of medium motor gas then a slug of expensive
motor gasoline then the medium stuff than the cheap stuff then something
like jet-A followed by kerosene and so on in a rotation that they find works
well. Here is the kicker, when a specific company puts fuel in that is of
a certain grade they put it into the middle of a slug (they wait until the
slug they want to add to comes by and then start adding fuel to the pipe.)
When they want to take out they wait until what they want comes by and they
take out of the middle. Thus, when a specific oil company puts fuel in at
one end, they have no way of getting their fuel out at the other end. It
works because they put stuff in that meets a specific spec and take stuff
out that meets the same spec. However the fuel that Texaco refines may very
well end up at the Exxon gas station. Hence the industries emphasis on
additives (i.e. Techron), they cant say their fuel is better due to
refining, because they cant sell you the stuff they refine. They can claim
its better cause they dumped some powder or a quart of something into the
tank though. If when they take the cheap grade gas out it tests too low on
octane they just mix in some of the stuff from the premium batch to bring it
up to the minimum levels.
100LL does not flow through the pipeline because the quantities are too
small. It is however shipped or barged around and mixed up in much the same
way. So when you buy gas, the important thing in my opinion is turnover
(you don't want some stuff that has been sitting around gathering water and
contamination) not brandname. Also, be aware that as a result of this
process the people you are buying gas from have little control over the
composition of their product.
Now for octane, 'isooctane isn't something that it is put in the gas. It is
a fuel that is run in a test engine (a goofy 1 cylinder engine that isn't
very much like your engine, but its a really old and established test so it
wont change.) Thus 100 octane is the test engine running 100% isooctane.
Ratings above 100 are measured different, but lets leave that alone as it
isn't important for a typical light aircraft. What it means is the fuel you
are using behaves like this test fuel with respect to knock. Think of it as
a knock index. You may know knock better as 'detonation', its the same
thing and is bad for your engine. Each engine requires a certain knock
index if you will, or else it will detonate. Anything above that does
nothing to add to the performance, in fact it may make the fuel more
volatile. They test the fuel for this characteristic because it is
important that the engine not detonate. Now, as long as your not detonating
you have enough 'octane' in the fuel. How much is required varies from
engine to engine. High compression ratio's and turbochargers require a much
higher octane than other fuels. The A-65 was invented long ago when fuel
was much lower octane than today's 100LL. 100LL is however required for
high compression turbocharged engines such as the TIO-540 (lest they
detonate.) Because airports don't want to add another fuel system (trucks,
tanks, etc) they force the recips to all use the same fuel.
High octane fuels did not come along until the late 30's. They were
developed for the raceplanes and the military. Primarily they allowed for
us to get a lot more power out of the same size engine than other countries
were able to extract. This development definitely had a lot to do with
America's success in the second world war.
From the point of view of an old fashioned engine the high octane is totally
wasted. What you do gain by purchasing 100LL is a fuel that has a very
strict quality system in place (have you ever heard of the service station
down the street filtering or sumping their fuel?) Aviation gasoline goes
through filters as it is delivered to the airport to remove contaminates and
again on the truck. The fuel in the storage tanks/truck/etc is sumped
regularly. The filters are for both particles and for entrained water.
Entrained water (water suspended in the fuel) is a concern as it can
condense out rapidly if the temperature drops (i.e. weather changes or you
climb to altitude.) The reason for the concern about alcohol is it is
hydroscopic (it really likes water) and will hold a much greater amount of
entrained water than gasoline without it. The STC the EAA got on motor fuel
requires you to be sure you don't have any alcohol in the fuel you use (not
exactly a reasonable requirement as you can see from the description of the
distribution system described above.) This quality system and assured lack
of alcohol is what you gain by buying 100LL. It is about a lot more than
octane.
One other benefit of 100LL is the lead. it can help with the lubrication.
100LL has about 4 times the lead the old 80 octane stuff the A-65 was
designed for. So, it would be a good idea to fuel up with 100LL every
fourth tank or so. If you go anywhere with your airplane you are bound to
buy some 100LL so this will probably take care of itself very nicely.
Thus, if you want to use motor gas it can be made to work. However if you
want a similar level of safety you will need a pretty sophisticated setup
for filtering and sumping the fuel. My recommendation is if you want to use
motor gas you need to do it in a big way: get yourself an epoxy lined drum,
put a sump in it, let it sit for a while before using it to allow any
entrained water to precipitate out and sump it religiously, and filter the
stuff coming out of it. Be aware that you have a higher risk of problems
with entrained water than if you are using aviation gasoline so be cognizant
of changes in temperature. The filter they airport uses to get out the
entrained water is fairly sophisticated and extremely expensive so your
home-made set up will probably lack this feature. If you keep your airplane
at an airport with fuel this is probably more work than it is worth.
However if their is no fuel on the field this may be worth the effort for
the convenience.
To answer your question I would not use additives in motor gas, however I
would take great pains to develop a good distribution/filtering system.
Additives are not regulated or tested. They do not have any associated
performance standards. So more or less, who knows what they will do for or
to you. This is not completely true for several jet fuel additives that
serve very important purposes for people that have very specific problems or
operational requirements, but once again that isn't a Pietenpol issue
either.
I hope this was not more detail than you wanted. Once again, this is not a
subject that I am an expert in so evaluate it's merits for yourself.
Best Regards,
Kevin Holcomb
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: MOGAS
>
> Someone on another list I subscribe to asked about using motor gas in
> A-65's. I took the time to write out a response and thought it might be
of
> interest here as well.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks Kevin for your answer, it gave me a whole new perspective on the
manufacture and distribution of fuels.
My problem is the opposite of the one where the A-65 owner wanted to use
mogas in his aircraft engine, instead I want to use aircraft fuel in my
automobile engine occasionally. My engine is designed to run on UNLEADED
FUEL, but aircraft fuel CONTAINS LEAD. I have been told that the lead in
the fuel used in my Subaru engine will build up deposits on the plugs. So I
am looking for some additive to put into the aircraft fuel that will
eliminate or at least mitigate these deposits. Maybe there just isn't such
a thing?
Thanks again for your answer.
John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel additives. |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel additives.
<grhans@cable-lynx.net>
>
> John Dilatush,
>
> For what it is worth, back in the 1950's we were flying Bell
> 47 D1 helicopters (same as those seen at the beginning of
> MASH episodes) powered by Franklin aircraft engines. We
> demanded a lot from those poor engines as they ran con-
> tinuously at 3100 rpm!
>
> To prevent detonation, a 50-50 blend of 80/87 and 100/130
> aviation gasoline was used. The lead content was high (pro-
> bably similar to that of 100LL) and spark plug fouling was a
> problem unless one added about a cupful of TCP (tricresyl
> phosphate--not sure of the spelling) to each 55 US gallons
> of the mix. This additive tended to prevent the lead deposits
> from remaining in the combustion chamber, thereby reducing
> plug fouling. The inside surface of the exhaust stacks would
> be a whitish gray with these deposits, and the stuff ehausted
> to the atmosphere couldn't have been environmentally friend-
> ly. I don't know whether TCP is available anymore for this pur-
> pose. Maybe not.
>
> Mixing the fuel was nuisance---especially when operating in
> northern Canada perhaps 1500 miles from base. The 47 D1
> was replaced by the 47 G2 which was powered by a Lycoming
> engine using straight 80/87 aviation gasoline with no additives.
>
> Anyway, that is what we did about 50 years ago to address the
> problem you indicated. I don't know if it is of any use nowadays,
> but it shows that the problem has been around for awhile.
>
> Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks, Graham-
This was the information that I was hoping for. I now remember from my old
racing days (also about 50 years ago) that we used a commercially available
product called just that - "TCP" added to the gas. Was supposed to keep
your engine clean and give you more power and a whole lot of other things
etc.
I'll check around and see if it is still available or at least something
like it.
I appreciate your reply, If you are going to Brodhead maybe I'll be able to
thank you in person.
John
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Thanks, Kevin. A very good explanation of fuels.
Here in North Carolina, at least in my county, all winter long the
commercial mogas contains 10% ethanol to help reduce ozone. This can be bad
for airplanes in other ways than entrained moisture. Most aircraft fuel
systems uses buna-n rubber for the seals (gascolator, fule selector valves,
etc.). Stromberg Carburetors use neoprene valve seats on their needle
valves. These rubbers are attacked by alcohol and they will disintegrate in
a few weeks. I had a J-3 Cub back in the late 70's and early '80's, and I
regularly put car gas in it, thinking that since the A-65 specified a
minimum octane of 73, the car gas would be better for the engine than all
the lead of 100 octane (the airport where I was based didn't have 100LL,
just 100/130, which has 10 times the lead of 80/87). I nearly lost the
airplane when the needle valve seat in the carb disintegrated, allowing a
super rich mixture into the intake manifold. I eventually replaced the
needle valve seat with a stainless steel one and solved the problem, but at
the time I never attributed it to the use of car gas. It was years later,
after I sold the airplane, that I found out the alcohol in the car gas had
caused the problem.
As they say on AvWeb, Y'all be careful up there.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Holcomb
Subject: Pietenpol-List: MOGAS
Someone on another list I subscribe to asked about using motor gas in
A-65's. I took the time to write out a response and thought it might be of
interest here as well.
I am not a fuels expert, however I recently took a 3-day class by ASTM on
aviation fuel. After much complaining at work about not having any
technical training (and also having far too much training in the management
or quality concept of the moment) management selected a class for
powerplants engineers. I don't have any idea how they picked the class out,
but I suspect it was either the cheapest one offered or it sounded so
boreing that nobody would ever complain about the lack of technical training
again. It was fascinating (go figure).
I wasted a lot of the classes time asking questions to learn about your
exact question. Here is a summary:
To start with, fuel is very weird. It is too complicated to manufacture an
exact chemical compound that does what fuel does. In fact different barrels
of crude from different parts of the world mix up differently. As a result
fuel is not specified by what it is, it is specified by how it performs. In
short the industry has a number of performance tests, time has shown that
they are pretty good and fuel that passes those tests is acceptable for use
although the exact chemical makeup will vary widely.
The next part of the process is that the fuel is predominately distributed
by pipeline. Apparently there are several pipelines that stretch across the
U.S. For instance one pipeline (the colonial) stretches from Texas to
either New York or Chicago (I forget which.) Fuel is put into it at a
number of different places and taken out at another group of places. The
only reason it works is the fuel is constantly flowing through the pipe (it
only goes one way.) The strange part is multiple different fuels are in the
pipe at once (Jet-A, motor gas of different grades, home heating oil,
diesel, etc.) Imagine it as a convoy of different products going down a
road. Basically they have big slugs of each and they don't mix too much as
long as you keep the whole thing constantly moving. They are sequenced so
similar products are next to each other to make it less troublesome when the
inevitable fuel on the edge of each slug mixes with the fuel in the next
slug (no spacers, its just the next thing in the tube.) So imagine a slug
of cheap motor gas, then a slug of medium motor gas then a slug of expensive
motor gasoline then the medium stuff than the cheap stuff then something
like jet-A followed by kerosene and so on in a rotation that they find works
well. Here is the kicker, when a specific company puts fuel in that is of
a certain grade they put it into the middle of a slug (they wait until the
slug they want to add to comes by and then start adding fuel to the pipe.)
When they want to take out they wait until what they want comes by and they
take out of the middle. Thus, when a specific oil company puts fuel in at
one end, they have no way of getting their fuel out at the other end. It
works because they put stuff in that meets a specific spec and take stuff
out that meets the same spec. However the fuel that Texaco refines may very
well end up at the Exxon gas station. Hence the industries emphasis on
additives (i.e. Techron), they cant say their fuel is better due to
refining, because they cant sell you the stuff they refine. They can claim
its better cause they dumped some powder or a quart of something into the
tank though. If when they take the cheap grade gas out it tests too low on
octane they just mix in some of the stuff from the premium batch to bring it
up to the minimum levels.
100LL does not flow through the pipeline because the quantities are too
small. It is however shipped or barged around and mixed up in much the same
way. So when you buy gas, the important thing in my opinion is turnover
(you don't want some stuff that has been sitting around gathering water and
contamination) not brandname. Also, be aware that as a result of this
process the people you are buying gas from have little control over the
composition of their product.
Now for octane, 'isooctane isn't something that it is put in the gas. It is
a fuel that is run in a test engine (a goofy 1 cylinder engine that isn't
very much like your engine, but its a really old and established test so it
wont change.) Thus 100 octane is the test engine running 100% isooctane.
Ratings above 100 are measured different, but lets leave that alone as it
isn't important for a typical light aircraft. What it means is the fuel you
are using behaves like this test fuel with respect to knock. Think of it as
a knock index. You may know knock better as 'detonation', its the same
thing and is bad for your engine. Each engine requires a certain knock
index if you will, or else it will detonate. Anything above that does
nothing to add to the performance, in fact it may make the fuel more
volatile. They test the fuel for this characteristic because it is
important that the engine not detonate. Now, as long as your not detonating
you have enough 'octane' in the fuel. How much is required varies from
engine to engine. High compression ratio's and turbochargers require a much
higher octane than other fuels. The A-65 was invented long ago when fuel
was much lower octane than today's 100LL. 100LL is however required for
high compression turbocharged engines such as the TIO-540 (lest they
detonate.) Because airports don't want to add another fuel system (trucks,
tanks, etc) they force the recips to all use the same fuel.
High octane fuels did not come along until the late 30's. They were
developed for the raceplanes and the military. Primarily they allowed for
us to get a lot more power out of the same size engine than other countries
were able to extract. This development definitely had a lot to do with
America's success in the second world war.
From the point of view of an old fashioned engine the high octane is totally
wasted. What you do gain by purchasing 100LL is a fuel that has a very
strict quality system in place (have you ever heard of the service station
down the street filtering or sumping their fuel?) Aviation gasoline goes
through filters as it is delivered to the airport to remove contaminates and
again on the truck. The fuel in the storage tanks/truck/etc is sumped
regularly. The filters are for both particles and for entrained water.
Entrained water (water suspended in the fuel) is a concern as it can
condense out rapidly if the temperature drops (i.e. weather changes or you
climb to altitude.) The reason for the concern about alcohol is it is
hydroscopic (it really likes water) and will hold a much greater amount of
entrained water than gasoline without it. The STC the EAA got on motor fuel
requires you to be sure you don't have any alcohol in the fuel you use (not
exactly a reasonable requirement as you can see from the description of the
distribution system described above.) This quality system and assured lack
of alcohol is what you gain by buying 100LL. It is about a lot more than
octane.
One other benefit of 100LL is the lead. it can help with the lubrication.
100LL has about 4 times the lead the old 80 octane stuff the A-65 was
designed for. So, it would be a good idea to fuel up with 100LL every
fourth tank or so. If you go anywhere with your airplane you are bound to
buy some 100LL so this will probably take care of itself very nicely.
Thus, if you want to use motor gas it can be made to work. However if you
want a similar level of safety you will need a pretty sophisticated setup
for filtering and sumping the fuel. My recommendation is if you want to use
motor gas you need to do it in a big way: get yourself an epoxy lined drum,
put a sump in it, let it sit for a while before using it to allow any
entrained water to precipitate out and sump it religiously, and filter the
stuff coming out of it. Be aware that you have a higher risk of problems
with entrained water than if you are using aviation gasoline so be cognizant
of changes in temperature. The filter they airport uses to get out the
entrained water is fairly sophisticated and extremely expensive so your
home-made set up will probably lack this feature. If you keep your airplane
at an airport with fuel this is probably more work than it is worth.
However if their is no fuel on the field this may be worth the effort for
the convenience.
To answer your question I would not use additives in motor gas, however I
would take great pains to develop a good distribution/filtering system.
Additives are not regulated or tested. They do not have any associated
performance standards. So more or less, who knows what they will do for or
to you. This is not completely true for several jet fuel additives that
serve very important purposes for people that have very specific problems or
operational requirements, but once again that isn't a Pietenpol issue
either.
I hope this was not more detail than you wanted. Once again, this is not a
subject that I am an expert in so evaluate it's merits for yourself.
Best Regards,
Kevin Holcomb
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com> |
Kevin,
Thanks for the info on fuels...I'll never look at gas the same again. My 78 year
old Father always told me that they mixed the stuff together....thought he
was just being a grump.
Mike Hattaway
do not archieve
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Auto Fuel Additive |
>
>I've been wondering the same thing as I am considering going with a corvair
>engine.
>
>Only one airport here (that I'm aware of) sells 80/87
>DJ Vegh
>Mesa, AZ
>GN-1/Piet hybrid
>www.raptoronline.com
DJ & Other "Vair Heads",
Del, I think you're half right. William Wynne recommends EITHER premium
Auto gas (93 octane +) or 100LL with his conversion, although he leans
towards 100LL. This presumes that you build your engine per his plans using
the high-compression heads (9:1 ratio) he recommends. He definitely
recommended NOT using regular auto gas or 80/87 avgas, and told me a rather
hairy forced-landing story about how he discovered what they would do to a
Corviar engine.
William told me all this when I visited him over Christmas 2000, so maybe
he's modified his opinion by now (your mileage may vary).
I have no idea what you would use if you did a straight 'Bernie P.' Corvair
conversion, although I'm sure his grandson, Andrew could tell you. He still
flys the 'Last Original' in this configuration (at least he was when I
visited him in August 2000).
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
yesterday and today have not been very easy for me to handle.
A friend of mine, Joe Carter, and his 16 yr old. were killed yesterday
morning in his Fisher Celebrity. The Celebrity is a wood wing, steel tube
or wood fuselage 2 place biplane.
Early reports say witnesses saw pieces coming from the aircraft seconds
before one of the wings folded. The plane entered a diving spin and
impacted the desert floor at about 7:55am yesterday. The wreckage was
devastating. The fuse from the rear seat forward was a ball of complete
mess. He apparantly radioed Chandler tower saying he was going to need to
make an emergency landing because his upper wing was beginning to come
loose. He never made it back.
He had just purchased the Celebrity near the begining of the year. He spent
a couple months making some minor repairs and alterations. The Celebrity was
the Fisher factory demo plane built by the designer. My dad signed Joe off
for his tailwheel endorsement a few weeks ago and since then Joe had been
flying his plane as much as he could.
Joe was such a nice guy.... willing to help whenever he could. He was very
enthusiastic about aviation. We all belonged with a group of guys who would
go fly rc helicopters and planes. It was when Joe got his plane that I and
a few of the guys decided to build our own.
I'm just mind boggled and really sick..... I just don't even want to fly
right now. I can't get in a plane with out thinking about his last
moments... fighting to gain control...
I feel like shit. I'm very nervous because my dad is about 80% complete
with his Fisher Celebrity. I really need to know what happened.
things like this tend to make your ambition to finish your project
dwindle.....
thanks for listening to me ramble... it's just not been a good weekend.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard L. Dery" <dickdery(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Usages |
> Let's say my buddy Bob is a candidate for Sheriff and needs all the help he
> can get and maybe a lot more. Here I am sitting around with a perfectly good
> Piet. Would it be proper, allowed, or whatever if I made a banner like " BOB
> MAYOR" and pulled it around the sky behind this perfectly good Piet FOR NO
> COMPENSATION?
I think you could.
Of course when Bob became sheriff and made me the Deputy
> Sheriff for aviation affairs they couldn't connect anything, could they?
That in itself might be be considered compensation :).
Now, excuse me please; I have to put on my flame-retardant undies.
Richard L. Dery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike King" <mikek120(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: not a good day |
DJ,
Words cannot do anything to make you feel better nor
bring your friend back, but I am sorry to hear about your
loss.
Our prayers are with his family.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas, Texas
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: not a good day
>
> yesterday and today have not been very easy for me to handle.
>
> A friend of mine, Joe Carter, and his 16 yr old. were killed yesterday
> morning in his Fisher Celebrity. The Celebrity is a wood wing, steel tube
> or wood fuselage 2 place biplane.
>
> Early reports say witnesses saw pieces coming from the aircraft seconds
> before one of the wings folded. The plane entered a diving spin and
> impacted the desert floor at about 7:55am yesterday. The wreckage was
> devastating. The fuse from the rear seat forward was a ball of complete
> mess. He apparantly radioed Chandler tower saying he was going to need to
> make an emergency landing because his upper wing was beginning to come
> loose. He never made it back.
>
> He had just purchased the Celebrity near the begining of the year. He
spent
> a couple months making some minor repairs and alterations. The Celebrity
was
> the Fisher factory demo plane built by the designer. My dad signed Joe
off
> for his tailwheel endorsement a few weeks ago and since then Joe had been
> flying his plane as much as he could.
>
> Joe was such a nice guy.... willing to help whenever he could. He was
very
> enthusiastic about aviation. We all belonged with a group of guys who
would
> go fly rc helicopters and planes. It was when Joe got his plane that I
and
> a few of the guys decided to build our own.
>
> I'm just mind boggled and really sick..... I just don't even want to
fly
> right now. I can't get in a plane with out thinking about his last
> moments... fighting to gain control...
>
> I feel like shit. I'm very nervous because my dad is about 80%
complete
> with his Fisher Celebrity. I really need to know what happened.
>
> things like this tend to make your ambition to finish your project
> dwindle.....
>
> thanks for listening to me ramble... it's just not been a good weekend.
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1/Piet hybrid
> www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
> N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norm Decou <normdecou(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | linseed oil & T-88 |
Hi,
I am getting ready to treat my Ord-Hume style rib jig (pg. 61 of the EAA
Wood Book). They suggest that treating it with two coats of linseed oil
will glue adhesion. I do not know if the glue that they were using was
T-88. I am going to go ahead and try this as I believe that it will be
easier to work with than wax paper. If anyone has any experience with
T-88 and linseed oil or has a better treatment to prevent glue adhesion
to the wing rib jig please let me know.
Thanks Again
Norm & Adrienne Decou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com> |
"Donny Emch" , "John Greenlee" ,
"Michael D Cuy" ,
"Skip Gadd" , "Pat Letarte"
Gang-
Does anyone have or know of a suitable radiator for an "A"? The one I have is marginal
and my local radiator guy says he can rebuild it with a more efficient
core for a mere $250!! Seems a bit steep to me since the radiator was only $75
brand new. As far as I know, Forrest Lovely's purpose-built jobs are about $300
but seem to be a bit excessive in weight. Any solutions from y'all?
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: not a good day |
>
>DJ,
>
>Words cannot do anything to make you feel better nor
>bring your friend back, but I am sorry to hear about your
>loss.
>
>Our prayers are with his family.
>
>Mike King
>GN-1
>77MK
>Dallas, Texas
DJ,
All I can do is add my own sympathies.
KIp Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
| Subject: | Re: linseed oil & T-88 |
wax paper works great and your varnish will stick to your ribs later (
no pun intended)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Kitplanes Magazine |
A couple of good Pietenpol pictures in the July 2002 issue. Not sure who
they belong too, but sure are pretty.
Regards,
Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
MyKitPlane.com
EAA 665957
gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=68
"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
DJ, our sympathies are with you. There is nothing that compares to the loss
of a close friend or relative. I hope that you (and the FAA) can determine
what happened and that you will let us all know.
[snip]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | linseed oil & T-88 |
I am just using large transparent yellow trash bags from Home Depot. I just
cut them along the seems, fold it out, and cut what I need. I would think
the plastic drop clothes would work too. One covering works for many, many
uses. I cut it out and then clamp it down with the fitting blocks. Works
great so far.
-Gary McNeel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Norm
> Decou
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:51 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: linseed oil & T-88
>
>
> Hi,
> I am getting ready to treat my Ord-Hume style rib jig (pg. 61 of the EAA
> Wood Book). They suggest that treating it with two coats of linseed oil
> will glue adhesion. I do not know if the glue that they were using was
> T-88. I am going to go ahead and try this as I believe that it will be
> easier to work with than wax paper. If anyone has any experience with
> T-88 and linseed oil or has a better treatment to prevent glue adhesion
> to the wing rib jig please let me know.
> Thanks Again
> Norm & Adrienne Decou
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: linseed oil & T-88 |
I just cut some little squares of 10 mil poly and
laid them down at the joint positions. Works great
so far, 10 ribs done, one drying second side and
one in jig. Started last Sunday.
I'm using T88 also. To lay the second side gussets
and the first side ones on the jigged rib takes a
little more than 10 ml (cc). I mix up about 11 or
so to be on the safe side.
Ribs are weighing in at 8 1/2 oz each.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norm Decou" <normdecou(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: linseed oil & T-88
>
> Hi,
> I am getting ready to treat my Ord-Hume style rib jig (pg. 61 of the EAA
> Wood Book). They suggest that treating it with two coats of linseed oil
> will glue adhesion. I do not know if the glue that they were using was
> T-88. I am going to go ahead and try this as I believe that it will be
> easier to work with than wax paper. If anyone has any experience with
> T-88 and linseed oil or has a better treatment to prevent glue adhesion
> to the wing rib jig please let me know.
> Thanks Again
> Norm & Adrienne Decou
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
I've been off the list since the infamous "fisherman incident" but check
it periodically. I figured I'd check in on the radiator question...
Larry, there is no cheap way to build a radiator. That said, I'd like
to suggest checking into a company like Griffon Radiator. They make
aluminum radiators for the street rod-high performance guys. They are
not cheap, but as long as your spending the bucks, you can have a
radiator that weighs half or less than a copper-brass radiator. I got a
copper/brass radiator with the engine I bought and it weighs just under
20 lbs. That is HEAVY. The Griffon web sight says they can build a
radiator to your specs. They also claim that aluminum cools better than
copper/brass. I am planning to use the VW Golf diesel radiator that you
see in the ultra light catalogues. (LEAF etc.) Aluminum core with
plastic end tanks - 4 lbs. total! They use it on the Rotax 912. It don"t
look like it it's enough radiator for the Ford, but Lowell Frank used
one to cool his souped up Model B. Something else that might be worth
looking into is a product called 40 below. (Jegs catalog) A cooling
system additive that is suppose to speed up heat transfer from cyl.
walls to coolant, than from the coolant to the radiator tubes where
moving air whisks it away. You would want to test it against your finish
to make sure it won't attack your paint. If the VW rad. don't work, I'm
going to have one of those shops build me an aluminum Forrest Lovely
style radiator. Leon S. PS. Ken Perkins told me that Forrest
Lovely took about a year to make and ship his radiator.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: linseed oil & T-88 |
| From: | john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com> |
Norm,
I used T-88 on my ribs and covered the jig with saran wrap. Before you
put the strips in, lay the wrap over the jig (I found it worked best
using two or three pieces, overlapped). Then put the top and bottom
capstrips in place. Then you take your utility knife and slit the saran
wrap down the middle from near the nose to the end of the rib. This has
to be done because otherwise the wrap is held up by the position blocks
and won't let you slip your little brace strips into place. But that
quick slitting of the wrap provides the necessary slack to get everything
into place. The whole process only takes about 10-15 seconds. Worked
great for me.
John Fay in Peoria
Built one of the elevators yesterday. I just realized the last part I
made was in August, almost two years ago. Life's not long enough.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | fabric finishing tip |
Hello, low 'n' slow fliers;
I've been on the road the last 3 days so will be a while catching up, but in
reading one of my EAA Experimenters I saw a great tip that I wanted to be
sure to pass along in case some of you may have missed it.
When finishing your aircraft, make up a frame out of 2x4's or something and
cover and finish it the same as your aircraft. This will give you a source
for cutting patch material for when you get the inevitable "hangar rash" and
need a patch. After it's finished, just store it in the shop. Since you
use the exact same finishing materials on it as you do on the airplane, the
patch material should match the airplane very closely, except for sun fade
(unless you want to store it in the sun every time you park the airplane
outside). For multi-color paint schemes, just paint up several sections of
the patch material so you can cut out your patch to match the damaged
location.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
DJ,
Words cannot help. Just understand that many of us have gone through the
same thing. When I was a young lad flying airshows in Texas, a good friend
of mine spun in and killed himself right in front of me at an airshow. I
had propped him off to start his routine, and was holding a cold beer for
him to have when he landed and was through flying for the day. I was
scheduled to fly for the FAA that afternoon right after the show to qualify
for my low-level aerobatics waiver. I couldn't do it. In fact, I didn't
even want to fly home, but there was no other way to get the airplane home.
It was more than a year before I could do spins again.
At his funeral, most of the congregation were pilots. The one thought that
pulled us all through it was that he died doing something he loved, and not
many people can say that. Shortly after my friend was killed, a family from
New Jersey driving through Houston was killed when a tanker truck filled
with ammonia fell from one of those triple decker overpasses and flattened
their station wagon. Personally, I'd rather die in an airplane.
As pilots, we become fatalistic and believe that "when your number's up,
your number's up", whether you're in a plane or driving down the freeway.
Certainly flying can be dangerous, but usually when one of us gets killed,
it's our own fault. It sounds like if your friend did anything wrong it
might have been to overlook something on the preflight inspection, but
chances are that it was something that didn't get assembled right at the
last inspection, and was never checked on a preflight inspection. It was
just that his number was up.
Answers will be found. The Fisher Celebrity is a good aircraft, with a good
record. Don't let this stop you from building your Aircamper. Your friend
wouldn't want that. You're a pilot, and pilots have to fly.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Pietenpol-List: not a good day
yesterday and today have not been very easy for me to handle.
A friend of mine, Joe Carter, and his 16 yr old. were killed yesterday
morning in his Fisher Celebrity. The Celebrity is a wood wing, steel tube
or wood fuselage 2 place biplane.
Early reports say witnesses saw pieces coming from the aircraft seconds
before one of the wings folded. The plane entered a diving spin and
impacted the desert floor at about 7:55am yesterday. The wreckage was
devastating. The fuse from the rear seat forward was a ball of complete
mess. He apparantly radioed Chandler tower saying he was going to need to
make an emergency landing because his upper wing was beginning to come
loose. He never made it back.
He had just purchased the Celebrity near the begining of the year. He spent
a couple months making some minor repairs and alterations. The Celebrity was
the Fisher factory demo plane built by the designer. My dad signed Joe off
for his tailwheel endorsement a few weeks ago and since then Joe had been
flying his plane as much as he could.
Joe was such a nice guy.... willing to help whenever he could. He was very
enthusiastic about aviation. We all belonged with a group of guys who would
go fly rc helicopters and planes. It was when Joe got his plane that I and
a few of the guys decided to build our own.
I'm just mind boggled and really sick..... I just don't even want to fly
right now. I can't get in a plane with out thinking about his last
moments... fighting to gain control...
I feel like shit. I'm very nervous because my dad is about 80% complete
with his Fisher Celebrity. I really need to know what happened.
things like this tend to make your ambition to finish your project
dwindle.....
thanks for listening to me ramble... it's just not been a good weekend.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Piet photos in July "Kitplanes" magazine |
Concerning the identity of the Piets pictured in July "Kitplanes" - -
Page 33 - N899BB was built in 1995 and is owned by Clyde Buckley of Grand
Rapids Mich. It uses a beautiful Ford A engine and wood landing gear with
large thin wheels. The photo shows his "Skinny Minnie" which is a single
place miniature Piet. Again, beautiful workmanship. The photo was at an
Oshkosh AirVenture. Clyde is one of the nice guys. Back in 1967 he built
N3513, which has been owned by Alan Wise of Orlando, Florida since about
1972. Alan has the photogenic straight down pair of 2x4s for a landing
gear (shock cords are on the straight thru axle), the brakes consist of
fenders which Alan tightens on the outside of the tires to stop or turn,
some great brasswork and statuary above the C-65 engine, and just for
comment, Alan hangs a tiny red and green kerosene lantern on each wingtip
to simulate his navigation lights. Typical Piet people, Clyde and Alan.
The photo on page 45 of the good looking NX40772 was taken some years
ago. That airplane was built by Craig Aho, an original Buckeye Pietenpol
guy. The FAA certification was cancelled in July of 1998. At that time,
the Piet was owned by Chris Bolgen of Stanwood WA. The number N40772 is
now assigned to a Dragonfly. I do not know where the Piet is now, but I
can only hope it is hanging in a museum where all can see it. Craig did an
outstanding job on it.
As usual, this info is the best I have, but we all know that half the Piet
information is mythology. So are the people.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Piet photos in July "Kitplanes" magazine |
Cool! Thanks Doc. -Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doc
> Mosher
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:01 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet photos in July "Kitplanes" magazine
>
>
> Concerning the identity of the Piets pictured in July "Kitplanes" - -
>
> Page 33 - N899BB was built in 1995 and is owned by Clyde Buckley of Grand
> Rapids Mich. It uses a beautiful Ford A engine and wood landing
> gear with
> large thin wheels. The photo shows his "Skinny Minnie" which is a single
> place miniature Piet. Again, beautiful workmanship. The photo was at an
> Oshkosh AirVenture. Clyde is one of the nice guys. Back in 1967
> he built
> N3513, which has been owned by Alan Wise of Orlando, Florida since about
> 1972. Alan has the photogenic straight down pair of 2x4s for a landing
> gear (shock cords are on the straight thru axle), the brakes consist of
> fenders which Alan tightens on the outside of the tires to stop or turn,
> some great brasswork and statuary above the C-65 engine, and just for
> comment, Alan hangs a tiny red and green kerosene lantern on each wingtip
> to simulate his navigation lights. Typical Piet people, Clyde and Alan.
>
> The photo on page 45 of the good looking NX40772 was taken some years
> ago. That airplane was built by Craig Aho, an original Buckeye Pietenpol
> guy. The FAA certification was cancelled in July of 1998. At that time,
> the Piet was owned by Chris Bolgen of Stanwood WA. The number N40772 is
> now assigned to a Dragonfly. I do not know where the Piet is now, but I
> can only hope it is hanging in a museum where all can see it.
> Craig did an
> outstanding job on it.
>
> As usual, this info is the best I have, but we all know that half
> the Piet
> information is mythology. So are the people.
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics website down.... |
Anyone know why? Was trying to look at archive.
Regards,
Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
MyKitPlane.com
EAA 665957
gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=68
"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics website down.... |
Sorry about that, guys... I upgraded the webserver code this weekend and
it seems to have a 'crashing' problem now. I've got my eye on it. Should
be working fine now.
Matt
At 09:08 PM 6/10/2002 Monday, you wrote:
>
>
>Anyone know why? Was trying to look at archive.
>
>Regards,
>
>Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
>MyKitPlane.com
>EAA 665957
>gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com
>http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43
>http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=68
>
>"What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?"
>
> Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to
>a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.
>
>
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | story on Craig Aho's Piet |
Craig Aho's Piet was finished in about 1997 or maybe 1996. He had some
fellow test fly-it,
it won an award at Arlington perhaps, then Craig sold it to buy an Ercoupe
to get his private
license in. The plane was totally destroyed (along with several other
neat planes) in a hangar
fire subsequent to Craig's selling it. Craig is actively working on his
second Piet which should
be even nicer.
Mike C.
(thanks Doc. We love ya, man)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Seibert Bob-r18643 <Bob.Seibert(at)motorola.com> |
Corky,
Come on by if you are near Taylor.
I've got one about 75%.
Bob Seibert
512-365-8918
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet in Austin |
Bob,
I'll be thru Taylor Friday afternoon and Monday morn. Give me directions and
times you might be at home.
Corky getting set for Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Guy's, how many of you would mind my adding your planes to my site
(www.mykitplane.com)?
The whole reason I initially built the site was so that I could track
information on who was doing what where. Then I thought I would make is so
anyone could find information like who had planes where, what state of
construction they were in, etc. It is just a resource with NO commercial
intent, so no mailings from third-parties (or me), etc.
Anyhow, just wanted you guys to know about it.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Seibert
> Bob-r18643
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:10 PM
> To: Pietenpol list (E-mail)
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Austin
>
>
>
>
> Corky,
> Come on by if you are near Taylor.
> I've got one about 75%.
> Bob Seibert
> 512-365-8918
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "skycarl" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Well I just have to report that the sherwin williams exterior latex is
working out fine.
Got two coats of gray on the fuse and it's looking real good. No
pinholes, went on easy and smoothed right out after applying with a
brush. Now I'll have them mix me up some yellow and
we'll see how that goes.
Carl L.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Carl
Did you put on a coat of black first? I am painting my wing now with a coat
of Sherwin Williams black and will go over with about four coats of yellow
corn. I hate to put on that many coats but on my horizontal stab thats what
it took to get good coverage.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "skycarl" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint
>
> Well I just have to report that the sherwin williams exterior latex is
> working out fine.
> Got two coats of gray on the fuse and it's looking real good. No
> pinholes, went on easy and smoothed right out after applying with a
> brush. Now I'll have them mix me up some yellow and
> we'll see how that goes.
> Carl L.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | wing leading edge |
Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does it
compare to birch?
Thanks,
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Did that test for UV penetration of various paints ever get done and
reported? I hope I didn't miss it while at Sun n Fun.
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint
>
> Carl
> Did you put on a coat of black first? I am painting my wing now with a
coat
> of Sherwin Williams black and will go over with about four coats of yellow
> corn. I hate to put on that many coats but on my horizontal stab thats
what
> it took to get good coverage.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "skycarl" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint
>
>
> >
> > Well I just have to report that the sherwin williams exterior latex is
> > working out fine.
> > Got two coats of gray on the fuse and it's looking real good. No
> > pinholes, went on easy and smoothed right out after applying with a
> > brush. Now I'll have them mix me up some yellow and
> > we'll see how that goes.
> > Carl L.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
How about following the black coat with one of white?
You might not need so many coats of colour.
You might get away with one yellow but even two
yellow eliminates one coat.
----- Original Message ----- > Carl
> Did you put on a coat of black first? I am painting my wing now with a
coat
> of Sherwin Williams black and will go over with about four coats of yellow
> corn. I hate to put on that many coats but on my horizontal stab thats
what
> it took to get good coverage.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | my initial thoughts as to cause |
As I have been going over and over it I have a strong suspiscion of what may
have happened to Joe and his Celebrity.
My dad had just talked to Joe a couple weeks before the accident. Joe had
called and asked my dad what his opinion was on fabric not being stitched to
the ribs. My dad told him there are alot of builders who just glue the
fabric to the ribs, but it's a very smart idea to have them stitched.
Especially since the ribs on joe's plane were 1/4 x 1/4 " capstrips. Not a
lot of glue surface for the fabric.
The reason Joe was asking was because he had noticed an area(s) of
delamination on one of the wings. My dad told him to ground the airplane
and fix the problem by re-covering/stitching.
About a week later Joe called my dad again and said he had washed the plane
and noticed that the fabric was tight again. My dad informed him that that
still didn't sound good. Especially considering the fabric was at least
10yrs old and the past 6 months the airplane had been sitting out in the AZ
sun on the ramp. The last few weeks have been 100+ weather.
From what witnesses say the plane began to come apart in the air seconds
before one of the wings folded. The parts that came from the plane prior to
wing failure were wood pieces. Joe's plane was the steel tube version of the
fuse and had a wood wing.
I'm thinkning that the fabric may have came loose in certain areas and got
sucked off. As it failed it probably pulled some of the internal wing
structure with it as well as the rest of the fabric, hence the wood pieces
coming from the plane. At that point the drag was probably too great and
the wing folded back, or possibly once the fabric had been ripped from the
wing, the plane went into a severe attitude which over stressed the wings.
In any case I really think lack of stitching the fabric and it's hazardous
delaminating condidtion may have played a role.
It seems to fit the scenario, but only time and the NTSB will really be able
to solve it.
Have any of you heard of other accidents involving fabric comeing loose due
to lack of stitching?
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet photos in July "Kitplanes" magazine |
Speaking of Allan Wise's N3513, I noticed at Sun N Fun this year that
N3513 has a two piece wing and the span "looks" a little short. The seam is
right in the center of the wing. My first thought was that the center
section was eliminated and the two wing panels were simply linked together
in the same way that they normally connect to the center section. The
cabanes connect to the spars a foot from the inner end of the panels. Of
course everything was covered up so it was hard to tell exactly how it was
done. There was some discussion about two piece wings on the list about a
year ago and the concenses was that it isn't practical to do,so I thought
this might be of interest to the list. Does anyone have any details as to
how N3513's wing is built?????
Ed G.
>From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet photos in July "Kitplanes" magazine
>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:01:18 -0500
>
>
>Concerning the identity of the Piets pictured in July "Kitplanes" - -
>
>Page 33 - N899BB was built in 1995 and is owned by Clyde Buckley of Grand
>Rapids Mich. It uses a beautiful Ford A engine and wood landing gear with
>large thin wheels. The photo shows his "Skinny Minnie" which is a single
>place miniature Piet. Again, beautiful workmanship. The photo was at an
>Oshkosh AirVenture. Clyde is one of the nice guys. Back in 1967 he built
>N3513, which has been owned by Alan Wise of Orlando, Florida since about
>1972. Alan has the photogenic straight down pair of 2x4s for a landing
>gear (shock cords are on the straight thru axle), the brakes consist of
>fenders which Alan tightens on the outside of the tires to stop or turn,
>some great brasswork and statuary above the C-65 engine, and just for
>comment, Alan hangs a tiny red and green kerosene lantern on each wingtip
>to simulate his navigation lights. Typical Piet people, Clyde and Alan.
>
>The photo on page 45 of the good looking NX40772 was taken some years
>ago. That airplane was built by Craig Aho, an original Buckeye Pietenpol
>guy. The FAA certification was cancelled in July of 1998. At that time,
>the Piet was owned by Chris Bolgen of Stanwood WA. The number N40772 is
>now assigned to a Dragonfly. I do not know where the Piet is now, but I
>can only hope it is hanging in a museum where all can see it. Craig did an
>outstanding job on it.
>
>As usual, this info is the best I have, but we all know that half the Piet
>information is mythology. So are the people.
>
>Doc Mosher
>Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | wing leading edge |
Ted,
Since Pietenpol and Weeden,Davis,&Sanders used cardboard, I don't think it
would be a problem.
I'm planning to use Hoop Pine on my Piet.
Skip
>Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does it
>compare to birch?
>Ted Brousseau
>Naples, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
| Subject: | my initial thoughts as to cause |
This is an interesting point. Even if the fabric doesn't delaminate, being
glued to the ribs rather than stitched changes the rib loading from
compression (with stitching) to tension, at least in the low-pressure part
of the airfoil. We haven't heard much about rib loading in the "glue vs.
stitch" debate.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | my initial thoughts as to cause |
DJ,
I'm saddened to hear of your friend and his daughter, it's not easy thinking
about it. As you keep going forward with your plane and focus on safe
building practices, the time will help you feel better. Unfortunately too
many of us know this feeling. My friend, a pilot, went down with a family of
four, two brothers and their sons. (It was not a homebuilt, by the way). He
was about to start instructing me, too. It blew me away. I still wonder
about how he let it happen, 21 years later, but I hope I learned from it.
If you can find out any more from this accident, please keep us informed. I
would like to know what glue was used to assemble the ribs and wings, for
example. You mention how hot it was, and the plane sat outside for awhile.
Right now you and your Dad know that Joe had questions about the covering,
and asked for advice. Joe asked for help and it sounds like he got good
advice from your Dad. We can't tell if he followed it, and you can't keep
thinking "if only I did this, or that". You can eat yourself up thinking
about how it happened or what you could have done. Let's hope Joe had his
plane inspected and looked at by other builders and knowledgeable people,
and didn't blindly trust that just because it was a Fisher built plane it
was ok. You may try to ease your mind by thinking this happened from
something totally unforeseen, even at any inspection. A flaw deep in the
spar, a micro crack in a bolt, something, anything, but the obvious. But I
can go along with your reasoning about the cause for now.
You asked for other failures and one covering failure I remember was Steve
Wittman's O&O Special, a modified Tailwind design. Steve had fabric covered
plywood skinned wings. No rib stitching used here, but the adhesive he used
to attach the fabric was the wrong type , and the covering peeled off at
high speed, resulting in a crash taking Steve and his wife. Steve was
designing and building race planes from the 1930's, but with all his
knowledge this was something that got past him, and I think no matter how
careful you are, you just can't think of everything and check everything all
the time. Of course there was speculation about the cause, and guesses of
how the accident happened. Many of them had nothing to do with the real
reason for the accident and were way off base. When the report came out and
told what happened, it seemed so simple. But how could someone of Steve's
caliber and experience, who was way ahead of his time, have made a mistake
on something like that?
As homebuilders we have access to many resources and information that didn't
exist 10 or 15 years ago. It should be so easy not to make mistakes in this
day and age, but they still happen and they always will. Maybe we have an
overabundance of information and opinions, I don't know. I know that I
wouldn't be building if the internet hadn't happened. Really! I never knew
that regular guys like you and me could just build our own airplane! But we
have so much at our fingertips now it blows my mind. Just think for a minute
how much harder it would be to do what we do today if we couldn't write
instantly to our buddies on the list and ask questions? And I'm not
forgetting to use the local gurus either. You know, I met Leonard last night
at our chapter picnic. A guy who has been around about 70 years. He talked
about stuff I can't even understand right now, from gasoline to airfoils,
and it's sad to think about all his knowledge that won't get used by the
younger guys, and he lives right in town! I'm glad to be in his chapter,
something should rub off on me. :)
Here on this list we have people all across the country ready to help,
everyone is so eager to help. All we have to do is holler. But in the end I
believe nothing beats an extra pair of eyes. Get as many people involved in
your plane as possible. Let all the advice sink in, and take your time!
Jeez DJ, your building pace is impressive. You must trust what you have
done completely, so keep going forward. It looks great from the web site,
too. Everyone is different, our skills are different, our attitudes, etc.
Don't take offense DJ, but it would be scary for me to build as quick as you
have. And I don't think you are doing anything wrong! I met another guy last
night who built an RV-8 in a year! But my abilities and life experiences
are different. It has taken me about 5-6 months to build 18 ribs! And they
are not perfect, but somehow I trust them! But I haven't shown them to
anyone in my chapter yet. Why not? I guess I don't want some body to say
they are not good enough. But I think, I'm only talking about a few dollars
worth of wood and glue! They are so easy to build! What can go wrong, I
think? These things are cake! And only 41 hours of building. You see my
pride showing, don't you? It could bite me later. But I won't let that
happen, I will show my chapter buddies and get re-assurance that everything
is good, and go from there.
I'm glad you have your Dad to help, and he has you to help him. This tragedy
may have a good effect in the building and completion of your GN-1 and your
Dad's plane. It won't lessen the pain right away, but it will ease in time
as you both work together to build the safest aircraft you can. Keep up the
good work DJ.
Kent
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | my initial thoughts as to cause |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
There shouldn't be much debate. Stitch it and don't worry about it.
Avid used to just glue theirs but they had 1" wide cap strips, many
builders still opted to "go for the sure thing".
Steve E
-----Original Message-----
From: Hubbard, Eugene [mailto:ehubbard(at)titan.com]
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: my initial thoughts as to cause
This is an interesting point. Even if the fabric doesn't delaminate,
being
glued to the ribs rather than stitched changes the rib loading from
compression (with stitching) to tension, at least in the low-pressure
part
of the airfoil. We haven't heard much about rib loading in the "glue
vs.
stitch" debate.
Gene
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Tracy" <mtracy(at)psft.com> |
| Subject: | my initial thoughts as to cause |
I believe this is what happened in Steve Whitman's crash. He was the
designer of the Whitman Tailwind. Prelim reports point to fabric flutter on
the wings causing a wing failure, due to the fabric not being stitched, only
glued.
Mark Tracy
mtracy@prosoft-technology.com
Prosoft Technology, Inc.
1675 Chester Ave
Fourth Floor
Bakersfield, CA 93301
Ph: 661-716-5110
Fax: 661-716-5101
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Pietenpol-List: my initial thoughts as to cause
As I have been going over and over it I have a strong suspiscion of what may
have happened to Joe and his Celebrity.
My dad had just talked to Joe a couple weeks before the accident. Joe had
called and asked my dad what his opinion was on fabric not being stitched to
the ribs. My dad told him there are alot of builders who just glue the
fabric to the ribs, but it's a very smart idea to have them stitched.
Especially since the ribs on joe's plane were 1/4 x 1/4 " capstrips. Not a
lot of glue surface for the fabric.
The reason Joe was asking was because he had noticed an area(s) of
delamination on one of the wings. My dad told him to ground the airplane
and fix the problem by re-covering/stitching.
About a week later Joe called my dad again and said he had washed the plane
and noticed that the fabric was tight again. My dad informed him that that
still didn't sound good. Especially considering the fabric was at least
10yrs old and the past 6 months the airplane had been sitting out in the AZ
sun on the ramp. The last few weeks have been 100+ weather.
From what witnesses say the plane began to come apart in the air seconds
before one of the wings folded. The parts that came from the plane prior to
wing failure were wood pieces. Joe's plane was the steel tube version of the
fuse and had a wood wing.
I'm thinkning that the fabric may have came loose in certain areas and got
sucked off. As it failed it probably pulled some of the internal wing
structure with it as well as the rest of the fabric, hence the wood pieces
coming from the plane. At that point the drag was probably too great and
the wing folded back, or possibly once the fabric had been ripped from the
wing, the plane went into a severe attitude which over stressed the wings.
In any case I really think lack of stitching the fabric and it's hazardous
delaminating condidtion may have played a role.
It seems to fit the scenario, but only time and the NTSB will really be able
to solve it.
Have any of you heard of other accidents involving fabric comeing loose due
to lack of stitching?
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | my initial thoughts as to cause |
wow Kent.... an excellent reply. you are right about me being 110% sure
on my GN-1. From this point forward I'm going to triple check evry inch and
then triple check it again.
Thats the one benefit myself and my dad have over Joe. We are building our
own and will know every micro detail. Joe put alot of trust in his plane
and it's builder. And to be honest when he first got it so id my dad and I.
My dad flew it several times. My dad decided he was not going to fly it
anymore until Joe stitched the ribs. I'm glad Joe called my dad to tell him
about that... otherwise my dad may have flown it.
On a lighter note.... I figured I should not temporarily stop working on my
plane. It's a stress releiver for me and this case is no different. I
installed the freshly silver powder coated control stick and rudder pedals
over the past couple nights. she's lookin good. pics are on my site.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kent
Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: my initial thoughts as to cause
DJ,
I'm saddened to hear of your friend and his daughter, it's not easy thinking
about it. As you keep going forward with your plane and focus on safe
building practices, the time will help you feel better. Unfortunately too
many of us know this feeling. My friend, a pilot, went down with a family of
four, two brothers and their sons. (It was not a homebuilt, by the way). He
was about to start instructing me, too. It blew me away. I still wonder
about how he let it happen, 21 years later, but I hope I learned from it.
If you can find out any more from this accident, please keep us informed. I
would like to know what glue was used to assemble the ribs and wings, for
example. You mention how hot it was, and the plane sat outside for awhile.
Right now you and your Dad know that Joe had questions about the covering,
and asked for advice. Joe asked for help and it sounds like he got good
advice from your Dad. We can't tell if he followed it, and you can't keep
thinking "if only I did this, or that". You can eat yourself up thinking
about how it happened or what you could have done. Let's hope Joe had his
plane inspected and looked at by other builders and knowledgeable people,
and didn't blindly trust that just because it was a Fisher built plane it
was ok. You may try to ease your mind by thinking this happened from
something totally unforeseen, even at any inspection. A flaw deep in the
spar, a micro crack in a bolt, something, anything, but the obvious. But I
can go along with your reasoning about the cause for now.
You asked for other failures and one covering failure I remember was Steve
Wittman's O&O Special, a modified Tailwind design. Steve had fabric covered
plywood skinned wings. No rib stitching used here, but the adhesive he used
to attach the fabric was the wrong type , and the covering peeled off at
high speed, resulting in a crash taking Steve and his wife. Steve was
designing and building race planes from the 1930's, but with all his
knowledge this was something that got past him, and I think no matter how
careful you are, you just can't think of everything and check everything all
the time. Of course there was speculation about the cause, and guesses of
how the accident happened. Many of them had nothing to do with the real
reason for the accident and were way off base. When the report came out and
told what happened, it seemed so simple. But how could someone of Steve's
caliber and experience, who was way ahead of his time, have made a mistake
on something like that?
As homebuilders we have access to many resources and information that didn't
exist 10 or 15 years ago. It should be so easy not to make mistakes in this
day and age, but they still happen and they always will. Maybe we have an
overabundance of information and opinions, I don't know. I know that I
wouldn't be building if the internet hadn't happened. Really! I never knew
that regular guys like you and me could just build our own airplane! But we
have so much at our fingertips now it blows my mind. Just think for a minute
how much harder it would be to do what we do today if we couldn't write
instantly to our buddies on the list and ask questions? And I'm not
forgetting to use the local gurus either. You know, I met Leonard last night
at our chapter picnic. A guy who has been around about 70 years. He talked
about stuff I can't even understand right now, from gasoline to airfoils,
and it's sad to think about all his knowledge that won't get used by the
younger guys, and he lives right in town! I'm glad to be in his chapter,
something should rub off on me. :)
Here on this list we have people all across the country ready to help,
everyone is so eager to help. All we have to do is holler. But in the end I
believe nothing beats an extra pair of eyes. Get as many people involved in
your plane as possible. Let all the advice sink in, and take your time!
Jeez DJ, your building pace is impressive. You must trust what you have
done completely, so keep going forward. It looks great from the web site,
too. Everyone is different, our skills are different, our attitudes, etc.
Don't take offense DJ, but it would be scary for me to build as quick as you
have. And I don't think you are doing anything wrong! I met another guy last
night who built an RV-8 in a year! But my abilities and life experiences
are different. It has taken me about 5-6 months to build 18 ribs! And they
are not perfect, but somehow I trust them! But I haven't shown them to
anyone in my chapter yet. Why not? I guess I don't want some body to say
they are not good enough. But I think, I'm only talking about a few dollars
worth of wood and glue! They are so easy to build! What can go wrong, I
think? These things are cake! And only 41 hours of building. You see my
pride showing, don't you? It could bite me later. But I won't let that
happen, I will show my chapter buddies and get re-assurance that everything
is good, and go from there.
I'm glad you have your Dad to help, and he has you to help him. This tragedy
may have a good effect in the building and completion of your GN-1 and your
Dad's plane. It won't lessen the pain right away, but it will ease in time
as you both work together to build the safest aircraft you can. Keep up the
good work DJ.
Kent
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "skycarl" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Dick, After talking with some paint people, My understanding was gray had
enough uv protectant in it and with the amount in the yellow, it should be
fine. I plan on hangering the piet so I'm hoping they are right.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratril <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint
>
> Carl
> Did you put on a coat of black first? I am painting my wing now with a
coat
> of Sherwin Williams black and will go over with about four coats of yellow
> corn. I hate to put on that many coats but on my horizontal stab thats
what
> it took to get good coverage.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "skycarl" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint
>
>
> >
> > Well I just have to report that the sherwin williams exterior latex is
> > working out fine.
> > Got two coats of gray on the fuse and it's looking real good. No
> > pinholes, went on easy and smoothed right out after applying with a
> > brush. Now I'll have them mix me up some yellow and
> > we'll see how that goes.
> > Carl L.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: my initial thoughts as to cause |
A Tailwind wing is covered with ply wood. The fabric is glued on. No
stitching possible. Steve used nitrate dope to glue the fabric over the
plywood which is fine for cotton but doesn't have much strength with
polyester fabric. He saved some money when he should have used some
poly-tac or super-seam cement. It didn't fail for about 10 years.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Tracy" <mtracy(at)psft.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: my initial thoughts as to cause
I believe this is what happened in Steve Whitman's crash. He was the
designer of the Whitman Tailwind. Prelim reports point to fabric flutter on
the wings causing a wing failure, due to the fabric not being stitched, only
glued.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
Mark Tracy
mtracy@prosoft-technology.com
Prosoft Technology, Inc.
1675 Chester Ave
Fourth Floor
Bakersfield, CA 93301
Ph: 661-716-5110
Fax: 661-716-5101
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Pietenpol-List: my initial thoughts as to cause
As I have been going over and over it I have a strong suspiscion of what may
have happened to Joe and his Celebrity.
My dad had just talked to Joe a couple weeks before the accident. Joe had
called and asked my dad what his opinion was on fabric not being stitched to
the ribs. My dad told him there are alot of builders who just glue the
fabric to the ribs, but it's a very smart idea to have them stitched.
Especially since the ribs on joe's plane were 1/4 x 1/4 " capstrips. Not a
lot of glue surface for the fabric.
The reason Joe was asking was because he had noticed an area(s) of
delamination on one of the wings. My dad told him to ground the airplane
and fix the problem by re-covering/stitching.
About a week later Joe called my dad again and said he had washed the plane
and noticed that the fabric was tight again. My dad informed him that that
still didn't sound good. Especially considering the fabric was at least
10yrs old and the past 6 months the airplane had been sitting out in the AZ
sun on the ramp. The last few weeks have been 100+ weather.
From what witnesses say the plane began to come apart in the air seconds
before one of the wings folded. The parts that came from the plane prior to
wing failure were wood pieces. Joe's plane was the steel tube version of the
fuse and had a wood wing.
I'm thinkning that the fabric may have came loose in certain areas and got
sucked off. As it failed it probably pulled some of the internal wing
structure with it as well as the rest of the fabric, hence the wood pieces
coming from the plane. At that point the drag was probably too great and
the wing folded back, or possibly once the fabric had been ripped from the
wing, the plane went into a severe attitude which over stressed the wings.
In any case I really think lack of stitching the fabric and it's hazardous
delaminating condidtion may have played a role.
It seems to fit the scenario, but only time and the NTSB will really be able
to solve it.
Have any of you heard of other accidents involving fabric comeing loose due
to lack of stitching?
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
| Subject: | Tailwheel leaf spring |
Has anyone used the single leaf homebuilts spring from Aircraft Spruce
on their Piet? Mark McKellar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wing leading edge |
Skip,
I have heard about this hoop pine and Okume . Where can I read about
their qualities? Is one better than the other?
Thanks, Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
> Ted,
> Since Pietenpol and Weeden,Davis,&Sanders used cardboard, I don't think it
> would be a problem.
> I'm planning to use Hoop Pine on my Piet.
> Skip
>
> >Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does it
> >compare to birch?
> >Ted Brousseau
> >Naples, FL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: data on wood. |
For data on wood you can look here:
http://www.netexperts.cc/~lambertm/Wood/usdabook.html
Okoume is discussed, however I was not able to find hoop pine. Perhaps it
is listed under another name.
Good luck,
Kevin
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
> Skip,
>
> I have heard about this hoop pine and Okume . Where can I read about
> their qualities? Is one better than the other?
>
> Thanks, Ted
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
>
> >
> > Ted,
> > Since Pietenpol and Weeden,Davis,&Sanders used cardboard, I don't think
it
> > would be a problem.
> > I'm planning to use Hoop Pine on my Piet.
> > Skip
> >
> > >Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does
it
> > >compare to birch?
> > >Ted Brousseau
> > >Naples, FL
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel leaf spring |
--- Mark wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone used the single leaf homebuilts spring
> from Aircraft Spruce
> on their Piet? Mark McKellar
I bought one but havn't used it. others have said it
isn't quite heavy enough. I have a sonex and really
like the system they have and plan to use it on my
piet when I get back on that project. It is a titanium
round bar, it has spring but not much rebound. And is
tremendously lighter than a regular tailwheel.
Del
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I'm already putting on the yellow. It's ok it gets wet sanded. It's
allpart of the fun.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "clif" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint
>
> How about following the black coat with one of white?
> You might not need so many coats of colour.
> You might get away with one yellow but even two
> yellow eliminates one coat.
> ----- Original Message ----- > Carl
> > Did you put on a coat of black first? I am painting my wing now with a
> coat
> > of Sherwin Williams black and will go over with about four coats of
yellow
> > corn. I hate to put on that many coats but on my horizontal stab thats
> what
> > it took to get good coverage.
> > Dick
> > ----- Original Message -----> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wing leading edge |
Hi Ted
I used okume on my leading edge. That is what I built the fuselage out of
at Sun N Fun. It is lighter than comparable mahogany. It was easy to warp
all the way around. I wraped the whole edge from the spar on top to a 3"
lap on the rib on the bottom. I just cut the sheet of ply into 12"x8"
sections.
On the uv test issue, I dont remember hearing any results either. My plane
will be hangared also, so I am going to be satisfied with 1 coat of black
and 4 coats of yellow. I was out painting tonight.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
> Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does it
> compare to birch?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ted Brousseau
> Naples, FL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Tailwheel leaf spring |
I bought it and it's way too light. I'm going to try to take it to a spring
shop and have them make another leaf like it to sandwich up with it.
It would have been better to spend the money and get the J-3 tail spring.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel leaf spring
Has anyone used the single leaf homebuilts spring from Aircraft Spruce
on their Piet? Mark McKellar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | wing leading edge |
Ted,
Try http://www.australply.com.au/about_hoop_pine.html (underscore before
and after the word hoop)
Or just search on hoop pine.
The US importer use to come to Sun n Fun, they are in Texas.
I got mine about 3 or 4 years ago and at that time I only remember 2 grades,
interior and exterior. Now looking at the above sight it looks like the
exterior has voids, so I wouldn't recommend it. The exterior I got has no
voids, at least the 1/8 stuff I cut up for gussets didn't, and none are
apparent in the 1/16, which I have not cut into yet.
The marine grade they talk about on the web sight looks like the best pick
now, water proof and no voids.
I have been really impressed with the quality of the Hoop Pine I got. The
surface is more smooth than Mahogany, not as grainy.
The Okume Dick used to cover his Piet fuse at Sun n Fun seemed fine and was
good to work with.
I think either would be fine for leading edge, probably which ever is easier
to get and/or cheaper.
Skip
>I have heard about this hoop pine and Okume . Where can I read about
>their qualities? Is one better than the other?
>Thanks, Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel leaf spring |
DJ, I bought one too and I'm thinking that it is too flimsy.What about
buying another spring like it from A.S. and cutting off about 3-4 inches and
double them up??? Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel leaf spring
>
> I bought it and it's way too light. I'm going to try to take it to a
spring
> shop and have them make another leaf like it to sandwich up with it.
>
> It would have been better to spend the money and get the J-3 tail spring.
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1/Piet hybrid
> www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
> N74DV
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel leaf spring
>
>
> Has anyone used the single leaf homebuilts spring from Aircraft Spruce
> on their Piet? Mark McKellar
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Saving a penny may KILL YOU! |
Everyone please read this!
I have a real hard time understanding why homebuilders take so many chances when
building or buying airplanes! The pennies saved using "off the wall" materials
and "half thought out" shortcuts may make one feel like a true experimenter
however, these same ill conceived money saving ideas may KILL YOU!
I'm very familiar with the Fisher Celebrity that went in--it was a great kitplane,
but shortcuts and cost cutting may have been its downfall. There are literally
thousands of homebuilders out there who picked up on the idea, ususlly from
the kit manufacturer, of saving a little time and money by NOT mechanically
fastening the fabric to their aircraft! One has only to look at the Kolbs,
Mini Max and its relatives, Fishers, Pups, etc. at the next fly-in. One will
quickly see that the NO STITCH concept is everywhere....yes, even on many Piets
and GN's. Fabric glued, even to a solid plywood skinned wing and fuselage such
as is the case with the Corby Starlet, MAY come off if applied improperly
or glued with a "cost saving" but inappropriate adhesive--Elmer's School glue???
It's cheap but may KILL YOU! So will Areolite, Gorilla Glue, Carpenter's Wood
Glue and many more! Areolite oxidizes in hot and /or humid climates. Bacteria
will literally eat away a casine(whey) based glue! T-88 and other epoxy
based adhesive systems will soften, slip, and even release under the right temperature
and humidity conditions. The point is....use the very best glue and
pay a few dollars MORE to SAVE YOUR LIFE! Back in the day, there were really
good reasons for building airplanes the way they built them. Today, some of
the old "reasons" still apply while some techniques, processes and materials
have been replaced by obvious improvements.
If you don't want to stitch, then take a look at PK screws. Piets and GN's have
a giant capstrip that works well with screws. And before I forget it....adhereing
a fabric to a surface BEFORE you shrink it may prevent just that...the
shrinking and tightening required for the fabric to function optimally. Ever
see a slight sag in a wing on a cold day and wonder why?
Whatever you do, DON'T glue fabric to save time and money. If you are flying fabric
glued to your wing, you can still go back and stitch or screw it down.
The slight cost and time penalty may SAVE YOUR LIFE! If you used an old formaldahyd
based glue like Areolite, check it regulary for a brown/tan sugar look
and feel. If it feels like sand, or sugar grains....it has oxidized and WILL
come apart. A Cavalier literally fell to pieces a few years ago near Atlanta,
GA. The glue had turned to crystals from heat exposure and just stopped working--at
the worst time for souls onboard. Keep stick and glue airplanes cool
and dry and well inspected......but shouldn't we do the same for all machines
upon which we place our confidence and OUR LIVES?
If you use house paint to save money only to later learn that polymer fabrics are
really incompatible with Sherwin William, and the UV properties needed to protect
your fabric are just not there, if you use cheap glue to save a buck, if
you take shortcuts, use cardboard, formica, plywood from Russia, wood joining
biscuits, roof gutter tin, automotive bungie cords, wheel barrel, wagon, or
off-the-shelf motorcycle wheels, bedsheets, staples, drywall screws, Yugo radiators,
leafblower engines, duct tape--WHATEVER! Be certain that you ASK EVERYONE
for their opinion, READ AND RESEARCH EVERYTHING, check once, twice, thrice,
ask the local experts AND post a question on the list! If you are truly an
experimenter, then DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Fortunately, most builders do PLAN and RESEARCH
and TEST their ideas. Blindly accepting any process or technique simply
because an "expert" designer uses it may KILL YOU! Shortcuts to save building
hours can bite you where it hurts. If you do "whacky" things to your airplane,
don't take friends or relatives for plane rides. Better yet, build a one-holer
and knock yourself out with experimenting!
REMEMBER STUFF HAPPENS! STUFF HAPPENS TO GOOD PEOPLE AND THEIR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES!
DON'T LET STUFF KILL YOU OR YOUR FAMILY! THINK BEFORE YOU BUILD, THEN
THINK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL YOU ARE WELL INFORMED AND READY. THEN,
HAVE THE TIME OF YOUR LIFE!
Sorry to rain on so many parades out there. I was just thinking about all the
times my daughter used to sit beside me in my airplane when she was young. I'm
glad to be alive and I'm glad she is alive. I want all of you builders and
your families to be alive for as long as God sees fit. So build with care and
knowledge. Check, check and re-check before you make the final decision on ANYTHING.
Why save a few dollars or a few hours during the building years only
to risk lives and miss the flying years?
My sincere apologies to the offended. Congratulations to all the great builders
out there! And, prayers for the lost souls.
Mike Hattaway
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Sheets" <doug_sheets(at)hotmail.com> |
DJ--
What a sad story. I can't imagine how bad you feel; sorry for your loss.
I'm also building a SkyRaider ultralight that only has glued fabric, but the
moderator at the Sun-N-Fun covering class related a story of another
ultralight that had the fabric come loose on one wing and the plane crashed
because the pilot didn't have enough aileron to compensate and spun in.
Fortunately he lived to tell the story. I WILL be rib stitching my
SkyRaider.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | Saving a penny may KILL YOU! |
Mike,
Good to hear from you, I guess your last post indicates you are no longer
undercover;<)
I agree that one should think many times and ask a lot of people for
opinions before using non-aircraft materials.
I also believe some aircraft things are ok on some designs and not ok on
other designs.
I think using screws to hold fabric to Piet or GN1 wings is in this
category, let me explain why.
I consider myself an eyeball engineer, so you real engineers feel free to
jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.
The Piet uses a truss wing rib. This design works very well when taken as a
whole, in other words you don't want to put a whole lot of stress on one
part, but rather spread the stress over the whole truss.
When you use screws or glue to hold the fabric to the wing, you are
stressing the top cap strip alone, not a good thing. When you rib stitch the
string goes around both top and bottom cap strips, this ties the whole truss
together, which is a good thing.
This is why I don't like anything but rib stitching to hold the fabric on a
Piet wing.
Skip
>Piets and GN's have a giant cap strip that works well with screws.<
>Mike<
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net> |
Among other comments, many of which may have been
serious, wrote:
> Im using Basswood plywood wherever ply is called for.
BASSWOOD?! Did you ask your Tech. Rep. about that?
Or are you just checking to see whether we're awake?
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)gregyotz.com> |
| Subject: | Saving a penny may KILL YOU! |
Now let me start off with I'm going to rib stitch. If for nothing else
because I sat for 2 hours learning how at Sun-n-Fun. (Thanks to the guys
in the tent, I learned a lot)
First let me warn you that I am technically an electronic engineer and
not a aerodynamic nor structural engineer.... The fact that I fly in
things I've worked on or built should scare me and others... ;-)
I think that rib stitching might help spread the load to the lower part
of the rib, but is it really necessary and by how much? If it is, why
did I put on all those damn gussets on my ribs? My glue joints are
stronger than the wood. I've proven it to myself many times with test
pieces tested to destruction. As far as the theory of putting the rib
in compression over tension, well I would bet(haven't tested) that the
rib stitching string will stretch much farther than the wood I made my
ribs out of, even if it is tied tightly. Which means the rib truss work
is still in tension when the wing is in flight and you have a low
pressure area over the wing, but by how much?
I think that screwing with the proper method might work as well but
seems even more tedious than stitching. I think the necessary end
result is to keep the covering the correct airfoil shape and not to
allow it to "drum" or oscillate. Just make sure you use rib and anti
chaff tapes and remember to not keep your anti chaffing tape in you
wife's chaffing dish, it seems to make them upset.
My $.0275 worth.(adjusted for inflation)
Greg
GN-1 close to covering...
God, will it ever be done? Send me a sign.(UPS blue please)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gadd,
Skip
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Saving a penny may KILL YOU!
Mike,
Good to hear from you, I guess your last post indicates you are no
longer
undercover;<)
I agree that one should think many times and ask a lot of people for
opinions before using non-aircraft materials.
I also believe some aircraft things are ok on some designs and not ok on
other designs.
I think using screws to hold fabric to Piet or GN1 wings is in this
category, let me explain why.
I consider myself an eyeball engineer, so you real engineers feel free
to
jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.
The Piet uses a truss wing rib. This design works very well when taken
as a
whole, in other words you don't want to put a whole lot of stress on one
part, but rather spread the stress over the whole truss.
When you use screws or glue to hold the fabric to the wing, you are
stressing the top cap strip alone, not a good thing. When you rib stitch
the
string goes around both top and bottom cap strips, this ties the whole
truss
together, which is a good thing.
This is why I don't like anything but rib stitching to hold the fabric
on a
Piet wing.
Skip
>Piets and GN's have a giant cap strip that works well with screws.<
>Mike<
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet photos in July "Kitplanes" magazine |
| From: | "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com> |
Hi Pietttenpol list
Nx40772 Craig Aho piet was destroy by a hanger fire.
Shortly after he sold it.
Dale MPLS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | List Browsing Feature! |
Dear Listers,
I thought I'd post a little reminder to everyone about a very slick feature
of the email Lists here at Matronics. You can now use Netscape or Internet
Explorer to browse the current messages on your favorite List! The List
Browse Function tracks the current 7 day's worth of List messages for any
given List. Indexes are updated every 30 minutes with new messages that
have been posted. You can resort the message indexes by Thread, Subject,
Author, or Date and easily track and find current threads.
A number of List members have written to say that they love the List
Browser because they can keep tabs on the latest List messages throughout
the day without having to constantly check their email or wait for the
Digest issue to come out.
You can check out the List Browse Feature by going to the following URL and
clicking on the List of your choice:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com> |
Local news is reporting that Larry Harrison, builder of "Poplar Piet" and a Piet
Scout was injured yesterday in a crash near his strip at Climax, Georgia. The
report stated that Larry was life flighted to a hospital and that the passenger
was killed. Report simply stated that Larry was flying an experimental aircraft.
Since there are a couple of other a/c on his strip, I'm not sure what
he was flying. The name of the passenger was not released. I will update as
info is available or if any of you know anything let us know, i.e, where is
Larry hospitalized, etc.
Mike Hattaway
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com> |
Skip,
Good to hear from you too! I absolutely agree that rib lacing is preferable to
screws!
After spending many hours teaching lacing at SNF, one realizes that many "builders"
are looking for ANY way to avoid the dreaded "sewing". Gluing is very appealing
to the "new guy" especially when it is promoted by the kit manufacturer!
PK Screws are just the only option I would even discuss with anyone at this
time. See you in Thomasville in October?
Mike Hattaway
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com> |
Ted,
The HOOP PINE company in Texas used to run small ads in the back of magazines like
Good Housekeeping, and mags dealing with homes and home repairs. I'll try
to find one if my wife still gets the magazines. The ads featured quality and
flexibility. Good building!
Mike Hattaway
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flying without crashing |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Just to let everyone know, I went flying twice last week and didn't
crash.
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: raymond smith [mailto:badge784k(at)yahoo.com]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Crash!
Local news is reporting that Larry Harrison, builder of "Poplar Piet"
and a Piet Scout was injured yesterday in a crash near his strip at
Climax, Georgia. The report stated that Larry was life flighted to a
hospital and that the passenger was killed. Report simply stated that
Larry was flying an experimental aircraft. Since there are a couple of
other a/c on his strip, I'm not sure what he was flying. The name of
the passenger was not released. I will update as info is available or
if any of you know anything let us know, i.e, where is Larry
hospitalized, etc.
Mike Hattaway
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes(at)hotmail.com> |
I haven't checked this place out yet, but maybe this is the place:
RITECO SUPPLY, INC.
12999 FM 529
Houston, TX 77041
(713) 896-6200
Fax: (713) 896-6100
HOOP PINE PLYWOOD *PREMIUM QUALITY*
1/16" and 1/8" two good faces, no voids
passes a 72 hour boil test - no plugs or footballs
no website
Joe
Spring, TX
>From: raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hoop Pine
>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Ted,
>
>The HOOP PINE company in Texas used to run small ads in the back of
>magazines like Good Housekeeping, and mags dealing with homes and home
>repairs. I'll try to find one if my wife still gets the magazines. The
>ads featured quality and flexibility. Good building!
>
>Mike Hattaway
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike King" <mikek120(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flying without crashing |
I took my flight review last week which included
unusual attitudes and the GN-1 stayed together.
My instructor friend showed me a maneuver which I
actually saw the airspeed indicator go to zero "0"
and he had full control of the plane. He dropped the
nose and rolled out. The GN-1 dropped a few feet
and fully recovered. He did that three times. I was
impressed. However, he told me not to attempt
the maneuver, but just wanted to demonstrate how
effective the control surfaces were.
Have fun building or flying this weekend.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying without crashing
>
> Just to let everyone know, I went flying twice last week and didn't
> crash.
>
> Steve E.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: raymond smith [mailto:badge784k(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Crash!
>
>
>
>
> Local news is reporting that Larry Harrison, builder of "Poplar Piet"
> and a Piet Scout was injured yesterday in a crash near his strip at
> Climax, Georgia. The report stated that Larry was life flighted to a
> hospital and that the passenger was killed. Report simply stated that
> Larry was flying an experimental aircraft. Since there are a couple of
> other a/c on his strip, I'm not sure what he was flying. The name of
> the passenger was not released. I will update as info is available or
> if any of you know anything let us know, i.e, where is Larry
> hospitalized, etc.
>
> Mike Hattaway
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | lARRY HARRISON CRASH |
Larry Harrison crash update!
Larry was transported to a hospital in Tallahassee, Florida...probably Tallahassee
Memorial...by Life Flight for those who wish to attempt to contact family
there. No information available on his condition at this time. Bert Conoly,
Tallahassee, is attempting to get a condition update at this time.
Accident occurred last evening at Larry's strip near Climax, GA. Plane crashed
into a swampy area on the approach (east) end of the runway. Passenger who was
killed has not been identified to the public as of 12:15 today. Type of a/c
has not been given only that it was an experimental. Larry owns " Poplar Piet",
a Piet Scout, and sometimes flies a Challenger that is hangered with his
planes and Bert Conoly's project.
Further when available....our prayers for the deceased and for Larry's speedy recovery.
Mike Hattaway
---------------------------------
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith Bedell" <bedelk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
All-
I hooked up my xdp-4000x and it sounds like crap. I ordered the necessary cable
from online and tried to tune it, but it just got worse. Is there something missing
htat I need to do to get it to work. When I bypass it with rca splitters
the res of my system works like a charm. I have the 6001ES running three 10'
ES subs. Then 2 1805 ES's handling everything else. Aside from the problems with
the 4x, there is a huge disparity between cd volume and radio volume. I mean
huge!!!. I can max out radio volume and it sounds ok, then pop in a cd and
half way blows mee out of the cab. Any ideas, I anm just so dissapointed right
now....
From: Matt Dralle <DRALLE(at)MATRONICS.COM>
Subject: XDP4000X-List: List Browsing Feature!
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:52:33 -0700
-- XDP4000X-List message posted by: Matt Dralle
Dear Listers,
I thought I'd post a little reminder to everyone about a very slick feature
of the email Lists here at Matronics. You can now use Netscape or Internet
Explorer to browse the current messages on your favorite List! The List
Browse Function tracks the current 7 day's worth of List messages for any
given List. Indexes are updated every 30 minutes with new messages that
have been posted. You can resort the message indexes by Thread, Subject,
Author, or Date and easily track and find current threads.
A number of List members have written to say that they love the List
Browser because they can keep tabs on the latest List messages throughout
the day without having to constantly check their email or wait for the
Digest issue to come out.
You can check out the List Browse Feature by going to the following URL and
clicking on the List of your choice:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Todd" <check6(at)alltel.net> |
It is sad to find out that Larry Harrison had a catistrophic accident in
his Poplar Piet. The most I could find out was that the passenger was
killed and that Larry was in the hospital in Tallahassee Fl. I was not
able to find any other details. Any thing new I will post it to the
list. John Todd Blakely, Georgia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mark boynton <marktboynton(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
I think some T-88 might fix it. Any other ideas,
guys?
Mark Boynton
--- Keith Bedell wrote:
>
>
>
>
All-
>
I hooked up my xdp-4000x and it sounds like
> crap. I ordered the necessary cable from online and
> tried to tune it, but it just got worse. Is there
> something missing htat I need to do to get it to
> work. When I bypass it with rca splitters the res of
> my system works like a charm. I have the 6001ES
> running three 10' ES subs. Then 2 1805 ES's handling
> everything else. Aside from the problems with the
> 4x, there is a huge disparity between cd volume and
> radio volume. I mean huge!!!. I can max out
> radio volume and it sounds ok, then pop in a cd and
> half way blows mee out of the cab. Any ideas, I anm
> just so dissapointed right now....
>
> From: Matt Dralle
>
> Reply-To: xdp4000x-list(at)matronics.com
>
> To: Email-Lists(at)matronics.com
> Subject: XDP4000X-List: List Browsing
> Feature!
> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:52:33 -0700
>
>
> -- XDP4000X-List message posted
> by: Matt Dralle
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> I thought I'd post a little reminder
> to everyone about a very slick feature
> of the email Lists here at Matronics.
> You can now use Netscape or Internet
> Explorer to browse the current
> messages on your favorite List! The List
> Browse Function tracks the current 7
> day's worth of List messages for any
> given List. Indexes are updated every
> 30 minutes with new messages that
> have been posted. You can resort the
> message indexes by Thread, Subject,
> Author, or Date and easily track and
> find current threads.
>
> A number of List members have written
> to say that they love the List
> Browser because they can keep tabs on
> the latest List messages throughout
> the day without having to constantly
> check their email or wait for the
> Digest issue to come out.
>
> You can check out the List Browse
> Feature by going to the following URL and
> clicking on the List of your choice:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Email List Admin.
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box
> 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F |
> dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW |
> Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Larry Harrison |
It is sad to find out that Larry Harrison had a catistrophic accident
in
his Poplar Piet. The most I could find out was that the passenger was
killed and that Larry was in the hospital in Tallahassee Fl. I was not
able to find any other details. Any thing new I will post it to the
list. John Todd Blakely, Georgia
=
I understand that "Poplar Piet" was a Piet Scout. The Scout is a
single place Piet. There is no room for a passenger.
Mike B Piet N687MB (Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
This is the place, and they were prompt helpfull and
the material was very nice and inexpensive. to top it
all off, It is lighter than mahogany. win,win.
Del
> I haven't checked this place out yet, but maybe this
> is the place:
>
> RITECO SUPPLY, INC.
> 12999 FM 529
> Houston, TX 77041
> (713) 896-6200
> Fax: (713) 896-6100
>
> HOOP PINE PLYWOOD *PREMIUM QUALITY*
> 1/16" and 1/8" two good faces, no voids
> passes a 72 hour boil test - no plugs or footballs
> no website
>
> Joe
> Spring, TX
>
> >From: raymond smith <badge784k(at)yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hoop Pine
> >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
> >
>
> >
> >
> >Ted,
> >
> >The HOOP PINE company in Texas used to run small
> ads in the back of
> >magazines like Good Housekeeping, and mags dealing
> with homes and home
> >repairs. I'll try to find one if my wife still
> gets the magazines. The
> >ads featured quality and flexibility. Good
> building!
> >
> >Mike Hattaway
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Larry Harrison |
The Poplar Piet is a Piet. His Scout is a Scout. Yes, He built both.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Larry Harrison
>
>
> It is sad to find out that Larry Harrison had a catistrophic accident
> in
> his Poplar Piet. The most I could find out was that the passenger was
> killed and that Larry was in the hospital in Tallahassee Fl. I was not
> able to find any other details. Any thing new I will post it to the
> list. John Todd Blakely, Georgia
>
>
> I understand that "Poplar Piet" was a Piet Scout. The Scout is a
> single place Piet. There is no room for a passenger.
>
> Mike B Piet N687MB (Mr Sam )
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
Is there something missing to get it to work?
You better believe it
C i L
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:Update - Piet Accident |
Piet Group:
I went to Tallahassee Memorial Hospital today and talked with Larry's wife.
He did have a serious accident Thursday Evening. Larry has had some very
severe injuries , he's in ICU at the moment but his wife told me that he
appeared to be doing somewhat better this afternoon.
Sadly, a passenger was indeed killed. Our prayers are with all families and
individuals impacted by this.
Im sure there's a lot to be found out yet regarding the cause of the
accident so I am sure we all will want to be patient , not speculate, and
let the officials figure it all out. We can all learn from these things
when they happen.
I'll post again when I hear more.
Bert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Neal <llneal2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
He might try flattening out a 5/8 shackle and welding to the back of the
xdp-4000x. As always, be sure to use AN parts!!!
Then, as Mark suggests, use T-88 to bond the xpd-4000x to the top of the
6001ES unit, but remember to hook up a ground lead here.
Next attach about 80 feet of 3/8 polypropylene line to the shackle and
stow the xpd-4000x under the front seat near the bow.
After use, be sure to drain all water from the 6001ES before stowing.
Larry
mark boynton wrote:
>
>I think some T-88 might fix it. Any other ideas,
>guys?
>
>Mark Boynton
>
>--- Keith Bedell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
All-
>>
I hooked up my xdp-4000x and it sounds like
>>crap. I ordered the necessary cable from online and
>>tried to tune it, but it just got worse. Is there
>>something missing htat I need to do to get it to
>>work. When I bypass it with rca splitters the res of
>>my system works like a charm. I have the 6001ES
>>running three 10' ES subs. Then 2 1805 ES's handling
>>everything else. Aside from the problems with the
>>4x, there is a huge disparity between cd volume and
>>radio volume. I mean huge!!!. I can max out
>>radio volume and it sounds ok, then pop in a cd and
>>half way blows mee out of the cab. Any ideas, I anm
>>just so dissapointed right now....
>>
>>From: Matt Dralle
>>
>>Reply-To: xdp4000x-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>>To: Email-Lists(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: XDP4000X-List: List Browsing
>>Feature!
>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:52:33 -0700
>>
>>
>>-- XDP4000X-List message posted
>>by: Matt Dralle
>>
>>
>>Dear Listers,
>>
>>I thought I'd post a little reminder
>>to everyone about a very slick feature
>>of the email Lists here at Matronics.
>>You can now use Netscape or Internet
>>Explorer to browse the current
>>messages on your favorite List! The List
>>Browse Function tracks the current 7
>>day's worth of List messages for any
>>given List. Indexes are updated every
>>30 minutes with new messages that
>>have been posted. You can resort the
>>message indexes by Thread, Subject,
>>Author, or Date and easily track and
>>find current threads.
>>
>>A number of List members have written
>>to say that they love the List
>>Browser because they can keep tabs on
>>the latest List messages throughout
>>the day without having to constantly
>>check their email or wait for the
>>Digest issue to come out.
>>
>>You can check out the List Browse
>>Feature by going to the following URL and
>>clicking on the List of your choice:
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
>>
>>Enjoy!
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>Email List Admin.
>>
>>
>>Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box
>>347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
>>925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F |
>>dralle(at)matronics.com Email
>>http://www.matronics.com/ WWW |
>>Featuring Products For Aircraft
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Forum -
>>Contributions of
>>any other form
>>
>>latest messages.
>>other List members.
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>>http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>>http://www.matronics.com/search
>>http://www.matronics.com/archives
>>http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
Mark! Watch that mix ratio, now,.....
Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: "mark boynton" <marktboynton(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: XDP4000X-List: unhappy
>
> I think some T-88 might fix it. Any other ideas,
> guys?
>
> Mark Boynton
>
> --- Keith Bedell wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
All-
> >
I hooked up my xdp-4000x and it sounds like
> > crap. I ordered the necessary cable from online and
> > tried to tune it, but it just got worse. Is there
> > something missing htat I need to do to get it to
> > work. When I bypass it with rca splitters the res of
> > my system works like a charm. I have the 6001ES
> > running three 10' ES subs. Then 2 1805 ES's handling
> > everything else. Aside from the problems with the
> > 4x, there is a huge disparity between cd volume and
> > radio volume. I mean huge!!!. I can max out
> > radio volume and it sounds ok, then pop in a cd and
> > half way blows mee out of the cab. Any ideas, I anm
> > just so dissapointed right now....
> >
> > From: Matt Dralle
> >
> > Reply-To: xdp4000x-list(at)matronics.com
> >
> > To: Email-Lists(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: XDP4000X-List: List Browsing
> > Feature!
> > Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:52:33 -0700
> >
> >
> > -- XDP4000X-List message posted
> > by: Matt Dralle
> >
> >
> > Dear Listers,
> >
> > I thought I'd post a little reminder
> > to everyone about a very slick feature
> > of the email Lists here at Matronics.
> > You can now use Netscape or Internet
> > Explorer to browse the current
> > messages on your favorite List! The List
> > Browse Function tracks the current 7
> > day's worth of List messages for any
> > given List. Indexes are updated every
> > 30 minutes with new messages that
> > have been posted. You can resort the
> > message indexes by Thread, Subject,
> > Author, or Date and easily track and
> > find current threads.
> >
> > A number of List members have written
> > to say that they love the List
> > Browser because they can keep tabs on
> > the latest List messages throughout
> > the day without having to constantly
> > check their email or wait for the
> > Digest issue to come out.
> >
> > You can check out the List Browse
> > Feature by going to the following URL and
> > clicking on the List of your choice:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > Matt Dralle
> > Email List Admin.
> >
> >
> > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box
> > 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F |
> > dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW |
> > Featuring Products For Aircraft
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Forum -
> > Contributions of
> > any other form
> >
> > latest messages.
> > other List members.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/search
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <markmc(at)bluebonnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
Be sure to use either staples or brass nails along with the T-88 and I would
braze the flattened shackle instead of welding.The 6001ES should have 1/8
inch cable with turnbuckles running to the 3 10" ES subs.Other than these
things, I agree 100% with Larry and Mark B. Mark McKellar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: XDP4000X-List: unhappy
>
> Mark! Watch that mix ratio, now,.....
> Bert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mark boynton" <marktboynton(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: XDP4000X-List: unhappy
>
>
>
> >
> > I think some T-88 might fix it. Any other ideas,
> > guys?
> >
> > Mark Boynton
> >
> > --- Keith Bedell wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
All-
> > >
I hooked up my xdp-4000x and it sounds like
> > > crap. I ordered the necessary cable from online and
> > > tried to tune it, but it just got worse. Is there
> > > something missing htat I need to do to get it to
> > > work. When I bypass it with rca splitters the res of
> > > my system works like a charm. I have the 6001ES
> > > running three 10' ES subs. Then 2 1805 ES's handling
> > > everything else. Aside from the problems with the
> > > 4x, there is a huge disparity between cd volume and
> > > radio volume. I mean huge!!!. I can max out
> > > radio volume and it sounds ok, then pop in a cd and
> > > half way blows mee out of the cab. Any ideas, I anm
> > > just so dissapointed right now....
> > >
> > > From: Matt Dralle
> > >
> > > Reply-To: xdp4000x-list(at)matronics.com
> > >
> > > To: Email-Lists(at)matronics.com
> > > Subject: XDP4000X-List: List Browsing
> > > Feature!
> > > Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:52:33 -0700
> > >
> > >
> > > -- XDP4000X-List message posted
> > > by: Matt Dralle
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Listers,
> > >
> > > I thought I'd post a little reminder
> > > to everyone about a very slick feature
> > > of the email Lists here at Matronics.
> > > You can now use Netscape or Internet
> > > Explorer to browse the current
> > > messages on your favorite List! The List
> > > Browse Function tracks the current 7
> > > day's worth of List messages for any
> > > given List. Indexes are updated every
> > > 30 minutes with new messages that
> > > have been posted. You can resort the
> > > message indexes by Thread, Subject,
> > > Author, or Date and easily track and
> > > find current threads.
> > >
> > > A number of List members have written
> > > to say that they love the List
> > > Browser because they can keep tabs on
> > > the latest List messages throughout
> > > the day without having to constantly
> > > check their email or wait for the
> > > Digest issue to come out.
> > >
> > > You can check out the List Browse
> > > Feature by going to the following URL and
> > > clicking on the List of your choice:
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
> > >
> > > Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Matt Dralle
> > > Email List Admin.
> > >
> > >
> > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box
> > > 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> > > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F |
> > > dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> > > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW |
> > > Featuring Products For Aircraft
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Forum -
> > > Contributions of
> > > any other form
> > >
> > > latest messages.
> > > other List members.
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > http://www.matronics.com/search
> > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:Update - Piet Accident - Saturday Update |
Gentlemen: I went to the hospital again this morning and talked to Larry's
daughter. He had a better night last night and they are encouraged that
he'll survive this and continue to get better. He's still in ICU but is
awake and has been able to communicate with family and doctors. As I
understand the accident is being investigated so no real cause has been
determined. Will post again if any changes.
Bert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | 1/7 scale Air Camper |
I've been staying indoors the past few weeks cause it's too hot to work in
the shop (AZ Summer = 110-115 degrees) was getting boring so I decided to
build a 1/7 scale radio controlled version of my Air Camper (in my air
conditioned model room ).
46" wingspan, 13mph stall, about 36mph max and 12 minute flights.
She flies very scale like. nice and quiet too :-)
pictures and more info here:
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-12-02.htm
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com
N74DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/15/02 |
Hi gang:
Spent the day (Sat) at the Urbana SAA gathering. Over a hundred
planes were there. As for me, I finally got to meet Paul Poberezny, Norm
Paterson, Doc Mosher, Buck Hilbert, each one offering advise and direction I
needed for my historical project. I met a lot of other greats there too.
Everyone had time for everyone, kindalike Broadhead.
I sat down to eat a hot dog at a table and on the ground was a guy
showing pictures of an engine. He was wearing a T shirt that said "Fly
corvair" on it. I met and had a great chat with William Wynne and Grace.
He's doing well and said to say thanks to all the gang on the Piet list for
the support, cards, letters and good will. He might make Bhead.
All in all it was a great day at Urbana, SAA is a success. A
gathering of eagles for sure, and, Uh, er, yup, ya had to watch your step;
lots of buzzard pucky too.
Ryder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
PIETERS
HAPPY FATHERS' DAY TO ALL PIET DADS
CORKY IN LA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Another road trip !! |
Among other comments, TWINBOOM wrote:
> In all cases that he showed me, the Fir tore apart with no tearing of
> the basswood ply.
Well, it certainly sounds like he has done the "due diligence" preparations
and has the skills needed to do them right. You've got to admit, though,
that without that background info the notion of using basswood ply for
aircraft work is kind of startling. I didn't even know it was available in
water-resistant grades.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 1/7 scale Air Camper |
DJ,
Nice looking job!
pics look great.
Better you than me on the heat issue. In rainy NJ it's 58 deg and been
raining for a couple of days.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 1/7 scale Air Camper
>
> I've been staying indoors the past few weeks cause it's too hot to work in
> the shop (AZ Summer = 110-115 degrees) was getting boring so I decided to
> build a 1/7 scale radio controlled version of my Air Camper (in my air
> conditioned model room ).
>
> 46" wingspan, 13mph stall, about 36mph max and 12 minute flights.
>
> She flies very scale like. nice and quiet too :-)
>
> pictures and more info here:
>
> http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-12-02.htm
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1/Piet hybrid
> www.raptoronline.com
> N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "skycarl" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 1/7 scale Air Camper |
DJ, Nice job on the scale model. I'm sure your full scale will be a
beautiful ship.
Execellent web site I might add.
Carl L.
----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Vegh <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 1/7 scale Air Camper
>
> I've been staying indoors the past few weeks cause it's too hot to work in
> the shop (AZ Summer = 110-115 degrees) was getting boring so I decided to
> build a 1/7 scale radio controlled version of my Air Camper (in my air
> conditioned model room ).
>
> 46" wingspan, 13mph stall, about 36mph max and 12 minute flights.
>
> She flies very scale like. nice and quiet too :-)
>
> pictures and more info here:
>
> http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-12-02.htm
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1/Piet hybrid
> www.raptoronline.com
> N74DV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
>
>
>PIETERS
>
>HAPPY FATHERS' DAY TO ALL PIET DADS
>
>CORKY IN LA
Corky,
Thanks from one Dad to another.
Since we all seem to be passing around 'what I did this weekend stories',
I'll throw my 2 cents in & say that I had my first instruction flight
yesterday! It was rainy & gusty, with a 700' ceiling, so my CFI (Forrest
Barber, for any of you T-Craft types out there), did most of the flying,
but I'm on my way. Now for the cool part; unlike most folks these days, I'm
taking my basic instruction in a tail-dragger - Forrest's T-Craft BC-12D.
As a bonus, Frank Pavliga was out at the field doing his Annual on 'Sky
Gypsy' (probably the 2nd-most photographed Piet in history), and a friend
of Forrest's from CA, Ted Williams (a 747 pilot from Santa Rosa), was there
with his Stearman, waiting for the weather to lift so he could continue a
Rainy & gray, but what a day!
Cheers,
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wing leading edge |
Dick,
Did you mean 12" by 8 "feet" sections?
Did you use water to bend?
I bought a sheet of Okume on Friday. I like it.
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
> Hi Ted
> I used okume on my leading edge. That is what I built the fuselage out of
> at Sun N Fun. It is lighter than comparable mahogany. It was easy to
warp
> all the way around. I wraped the whole edge from the spar on top to a 3"
> lap on the rib on the bottom. I just cut the sheet of ply into 12"x8"
> sections.
> On the uv test issue, I dont remember hearing any results either. My
plane
> will be hangared also, so I am going to be satisfied with 1 coat of black
> and 4 coats of yellow. I was out painting tonight.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
>
>
> >
> > Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does it
> > compare to birch?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ted Brousseau
> > Naples, FL
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
I am going to use an 0-200 on my Piet. I have an 0-200 on my Cessna 140.
My Cessna flys 100 mph. Since the Piet will never get close to that speed I
feel that perhaps a different pitch prop should be used. If I am right, any
ideas on how to choose the right propellor?
Ted Brousseau
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Size propellor? |
Ted .... I asked Chad Wiley for cruise speeds with an 0-200 before I
bought my first set of plans. Chad owns St Criox aircraft and builds and
sells wood props. He and his Dad have built several Piets. He owns an 0-200
powered Piet. His answer was " 80 mph solo, 76 mph @ 1250 gross weight with
a 76" X 34" climb prop. 80 mph @ gross weight with a 72" X 42" prop but less
climb rate. Sounds like a big diffence in props to me but it sounds like he
has tried them both. Hope this is of some help. Ed G.
>From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Size propellor?
>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:01:13 -0400
>
>
>I am going to use an 0-200 on my Piet. I have an 0-200 on my Cessna 140.
>My Cessna flys 100 mph. Since the Piet will never get close to that speed
>I
>feel that perhaps a different pitch prop should be used. If I am right,
>any
>ideas on how to choose the right propellor?
>
>Ted Brousseau
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John_Duprey(at)vmed.org |
| Subject: | Re: 1/7 scale Air Camper |
06/17/2002 07:37:32 AM
DJ:That is a real nice model. I can't wait to see how your 100% scale turns
out.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 1/7 scale Air Camper |
----- Original Message -----
From: skycarl
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 1/7 scale Air Camper
DJ, Nice job on the scale model. I'm sure your full scale will be a
beautiful ship.
Execellent web site I might add.
Carl L.
----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Vegh <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
To:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 1/7 scale Air Camper
>
> I've been staying indoors the past few weeks cause it's too hot to
work in
> the shop (AZ Summer 110-115 degrees) was getting boring so I
decided to
> build a 1/7 scale radio controlled version of my Air Camper (in my
air
> conditioned model room ).
>
> 46" wingspan, 13mph stall, about 36mph max and 12 minute flights.
>
> She flies very scale like. nice and quiet too :-)
>
> pictures and more info here:
>
> http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-12-02.htm
>
> DJ Vegh
> Mesa, AZ
> GN-1/Piet hybrid
> www.raptoronline.com
> N74DV
>
>
-----------------------------
Carl, you email is infected with a virus: W32Klez.H@mm.
Do not reply.
Mike B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Size propellor? |
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Brousseau
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Size propellor?
I am going to use an 0-200 on my Piet. I have an 0-200 on my Cessna
140.
My Cessna flys 100 mph. Since the Piet will never get close to that
speed I
feel that perhaps a different pitch prop should be used. If I am
right, any
ideas on how to choose the right propellor?
Ted Brousseau
______________________________________________________________
I have an 0-200 in my Piet. The prop is a 71/38. I seems to be working
ok for the past 10 years.
Mike B Piet 687MB ( Mr Sam )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Basswood Plywood |
Owen;
The Basswood is Aviation certified Mil-spec and expensive! Not chosen for
cost, but for the weight and the holding power. Since I'm using Fir, I feel
that I should work on keeping the total weight down. The five parts of the
tail came in at 12 pounds - no hardware or coating(yet). Perhaps more
controversial, our Jenny (80%) uses a Polyurethane skate wheel for the tail
wheel, and I may choose this also, we'll see. I'd put it on the wishbone tail
as in the plans! There is probably a five pound weight savings, over the Cub
gear.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Size propellor? |
Mike,
On this prop business, I have a metal 71/48 which I intend using with my
A-65. What do you think I should expect concerning take off, climb and
general performance?
Would appreciate you comments
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Brusilow" <mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Size propellor? |
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Size propellor?
Mike,
On this prop business, I have a metal 71/48 which I intend using with
my
A-65. What do you think I should expect concerning take off, climb and
general performance?
Would appreciate you comments
Corky in La
______________________________________________________________
Cork, don't know what to tell you exept, put the prop on, run it up to
static rpm on the ground, if that works, go fly & see what happens.
Don't know if that's SOP, but that's the way I did it when I first put
the prop on.
Mike B Piet N687MB (Mr Sam)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Size propellor? |
Thanks Mike,
I'll pass this on to my pampered test pilot. It shouldn't be too long now
before we can give it a try.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Basswood Plywood |
wrote
> The Basswood is Aviation certified Mil-spec and expensive!
Interesting! I'd never heard of it. Where do you get it, and
how much more costly is it than mahogany, birch, or hoop pine?
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wing leading edge |
Hi Ted
Yes, I cut to 12"x8ft sections. I used a piece of plywood as a straight
edge and cut with a razor knife. Another yes, I nailed and glued the tops
to the ribsto the leading edge and let the glue cure. Then I wet the wood
and slowly bent it around. I used cargo tie down straps on every other rib
and slowly tightened while wetting and using an iron to bend. Over a couple
of days it tightened nicely.
Another subject, we may be neighbors of sorts this winter. I am planning on
bringing my Gemini 3400 down to Charolette Harbor this winter. It would be
nice to find a quiet boating, flying community to keep it docked. I have to
go to Miami on business in a week or two. I am going to start looking.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
> Dick,
>
> Did you mean 12" by 8 "feet" sections?
>
> Did you use water to bend?
>
> I bought a sheet of Okume on Friday. I like it.
>
> Ted
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
>
>
>
> >
> > Hi Ted
> > I used okume on my leading edge. That is what I built the fuselage out
of
> > at Sun N Fun. It is lighter than comparable mahogany. It was easy to
> warp
> > all the way around. I wraped the whole edge from the spar on top to a
3"
> > lap on the rib on the bottom. I just cut the sheet of ply into 12"x8"
> > sections.
> > On the uv test issue, I dont remember hearing any results either. My
> plane
> > will be hangared also, so I am going to be satisfied with 1 coat of
black
> > and 4 coats of yellow. I was out painting tonight.
> > Dick
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing leading edge
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Has anyone used 1/16" okume plywood for their leading edge? How does
it
> > > compare to birch?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Ted Brousseau
> > > Naples, FL
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Basswood Plywood |
You can get it from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty or Wicks Aircraft Supply.
It costs about 2/3 as much as Birch and Mahogany. Weight is about the same
as mahogany, a little lighter than birch. I don't think it is as strong,
and it certainly is not as stiff as either of them. I used basswood for my
helmet box and other none structural applications, like the scalloped
fairings over the ends of the turtledeck stringers.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Basswood Plywood
wrote
> The Basswood is Aviation certified Mil-spec and expensive!
Interesting! I'd never heard of it. Where do you get it, and
how much more costly is it than mahogany, birch, or hoop pine?
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
The father in law of a friend of mine passed away a year or two ago and left
behind a nearly complete GN-1. It has the fuselage and
tailfeathers through silver on Stits Polyfiber P-103 and the wings are
covered through the orange polybrush. An A-65 is mounted and all of the
cowling is done except for some riveting. It has the Cub gear with
BRAND NEW Cub tires on Cub wheels with Cub brakes. The wing struts are the
rear Cub struts but need to be sized and finish welded. Prop, tailwheel,
instruments, plans, hardware....it is all there. Send emails to Terry (aka
Joe) Wakely at twakely(at)rconnect.com It was built in Montana but Joe just
trailered it to Minneapolis area and would probably drive it to you if you
were within a few hundred miles, rather than offload it from the trailer.
It has never been certified by FAA but I
have been told all the receipts and pictures are there. Therefore the
buyer can get the repairman certificate!!
Chris Bobka
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Wrong email address for Joe |
Greg advises me that the email address for Joe Wakely with the GN-1 for sale
is wrong. You can get a holt of Joe at 507 663 9085
Chris bobka
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Saving a penny may KILL YOU! |
While we're eyeball engineering, look closely at the piet wing rib and
you will see some rather long, unsupported sections of capstrip in the first
half of the upper cap strip,in the lift area. One of our very experienced
listers mentioned not too long ago that these areas tend to sag or flatten
out after many many years. I really think these areas need the support to
the lower capstrip that the stitching adds. otherwise there is a whole lot
of force trying to pull the capstrip out of the first gusset aft of the
front spar, if that joint were to fail the whole truss assembly would be
really weak or possibly fail. I would also think that screws would tend to
weaken the capstrip to some extent as some of the grain would be cut by the
screw, nothing critical. With all due respect, I'm sure screws have been
used successfully. Just my two cents as a fellow eyeball engineer. The rib
looks to me like it was designed to be supported by stitching.
Ed G.
Ed G.
>From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'"
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Saving a penny may KILL YOU!
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:30:22 -0500
>
>
>Mike,
>Good to hear from you, I guess your last post indicates you are no longer
>undercover;<)
>
> I agree that one should think many times and ask a lot of people for
>opinions before using non-aircraft materials.
>
>I also believe some aircraft things are ok on some designs and not ok on
>other designs.
>I think using screws to hold fabric to Piet or GN1 wings is in this
>category, let me explain why.
>
>I consider myself an eyeball engineer, so you real engineers feel free to
>jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>The Piet uses a truss wing rib. This design works very well when taken as a
>whole, in other words you don't want to put a whole lot of stress on one
>part, but rather spread the stress over the whole truss.
>
>When you use screws or glue to hold the fabric to the wing, you are
>stressing the top cap strip alone, not a good thing. When you rib stitch
>the
>string goes around both top and bottom cap strips, this ties the whole
>truss
>together, which is a good thing.
>
>This is why I don't like anything but rib stitching to hold the fabric on a
>Piet wing.
>Skip
>
> >Piets and GN's have a giant cap strip that works well with screws.<
> >Mike<
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | interesting construction |
Hello, low and slow fliers;
I have no intention of rattling the Fisherman's bones again, but simply want
to present some very interesting construction ideas. Gary Gower, a member
of this list, has constructed at least one flying example of a Flying Flea
using... well, see for yourself, at-
http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm and by all means browse
his site!
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Celebrity Crash - more info |
just a little note to update some of you who requested more info regarding
the friend of mine's fatal Fisher Celebrity accident.
Another friend of mine, who coincidentally was married to Kandy Kubeck,
Capt. of ValueJet crash, knows the witness to Joes' crash. The witness is
somewhat knowledgeable in aviation. He stated to my friend that Joe's
Celebrity WAS in fact losing FABRIC before the wings folded. He said that
fabric pieces were coming from the aircraft prior to wings folding. After a
few seconds of fabric ripping from the top wing he said that the plane went
into a dive and then the top wing folded back.
This fits my original theory that it was the fabric that came loose. Once
the fabric had departed the wings it appears the drag was incredibly strong
to the open wing structure causing a structural failure at which point no
recovery could possibly be made.
The sad thing is my dad told Joe NOT to fly the aircraft a couple weeks
before the crash. My dad told him that if the fabric was loose and becoming
unglued that he should recover the wings and stitch them. My dad said to
GROUND the plane. BUT, as I've poked around and asked friends about what
happened after that conversation that Joe had with my dad, I found out that
another friend of Joe's, who I also know, told Joe that if the fabric was
coming loose not to worry. He told him that if it started to depart the
plane he would have enough time to make an emergency landing. So, Joe, an
inexperienced pilot took the opinion of the other guy and not my dad. Had
he listened to good advice he may be here today.
The point is not stitching fabric can kill you. It only takes a couple
extra days, a few bucks and a tad of weight. You gotta stitch the fabric.
DJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Celebrity Crash - more info |
And besides, stitching is actually fun!!! (until your finger tips start to
bleed)
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Celebrity Crash - more info
just a little note to update some of you who requested more info regarding
the friend of mine's fatal Fisher Celebrity accident.
Another friend of mine, who coincidentally was married to Kandy Kubeck,
Capt. of ValueJet crash, knows the witness to Joes' crash. The witness is
somewhat knowledgeable in aviation. He stated to my friend that Joe's
Celebrity WAS in fact losing FABRIC before the wings folded. He said that
fabric pieces were coming from the aircraft prior to wings folding. After a
few seconds of fabric ripping from the top wing he said that the plane went
into a dive and then the top wing folded back.
This fits my original theory that it was the fabric that came loose. Once
the fabric had departed the wings it appears the drag was incredibly strong
to the open wing structure causing a structural failure at which point no
recovery could possibly be made.
The sad thing is my dad told Joe NOT to fly the aircraft a couple weeks
before the crash. My dad told him that if the fabric was loose and becoming
unglued that he should recover the wings and stitch them. My dad said to
GROUND the plane. BUT, as I've poked around and asked friends about what
happened after that conversation that Joe had with my dad, I found out that
another friend of Joe's, who I also know, told Joe that if the fabric was
coming loose not to worry. He told him that if it started to depart the
plane he would have enough time to make an emergency landing. So, Joe, an
inexperienced pilot took the opinion of the other guy and not my dad. Had
he listened to good advice he may be here today.
The point is not stitching fabric can kill you. It only takes a couple
extra days, a few bucks and a tad of weight. You gotta stitch the fabric.
DJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rod wooller" <rodwooller(at)hotmail.com> |
Does anyone know if the dates for the 2003 fly-in at Brodhead have been set,
or could you tell me who I would contact to find out.
My wife and I are planning to take a round world holiday, probably in July /
August 2003 visiting our son in New York and my brother in California. I
plan on looking up some Piet builders in the UK and attending Brodhead if
possible.
There is a lot of organising to do for both of us to get leave at the same
time and arrange flights, so I am starting real early.
Brodhead is on my priority list!
Rod Wooller
Chidlow
Western Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead 2003 |
Brodhead is July 19-21
----- Original Message -----
From: "rod wooller" <rodwooller(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead 2003
>
>
> Does anyone know if the dates for the 2003 fly-in at Brodhead have been
set,
> or could you tell me who I would contact to find out.
>
> My wife and I are planning to take a round world holiday, probably in July
/
> August 2003 visiting our son in New York and my brother in California. I
> plan on looking up some Piet builders in the UK and attending Brodhead if
> possible.
>
> There is a lot of organising to do for both of us to get leave at the same
> time and arrange flights, so I am starting real early.
>
> Brodhead is on my priority list!
>
> Rod Wooller
> Chidlow
> Western Australia
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead 2003 |
Sorry, I screwed up--July 19-21 is for 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "rod wooller" <rodwooller(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead 2003
>
>
> Does anyone know if the dates for the 2003 fly-in at Brodhead have been
set,
> or could you tell me who I would contact to find out.
>
> My wife and I are planning to take a round world holiday, probably in July
/
> August 2003 visiting our son in New York and my brother in California. I
> plan on looking up some Piet builders in the UK and attending Brodhead if
> possible.
>
> There is a lot of organising to do for both of us to get leave at the same
> time and arrange flights, so I am starting real early.
>
> Brodhead is on my priority list!
>
> Rod Wooller
> Chidlow
> Western Australia
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/21/02 |
rod - keep my e-mail address for your planning. I'm a Piet builder in Los
Angeles, California.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/21/02 |
| From: | rhartwig11(at)juno.com |
Rod,
AirVenture for 2003 is July 29 to Aug 4. That would mean that Brodhead
would be the weekend before--July 25 thru 27th. I will let you know if I
can confirm that date.
Dick Hartwig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Chambers" <kengg(at)texas.net> |
| Subject: | a quality control question |
Hey everybody,
Here's the deal. I glued my floor on last week and it's not perfect.
There are no gaps on the vast majority of it, and there are no gaps at
all on the outside. There are sections, particularly near the pilots
seat, where no glue squeezed out. There is one section on the inside of
about 6 inches with a gap of about 1/16 of an inch for 4 or 5 inches. It
is almost perfectly glued to the front ash piece but there is no squeeze
out and a couple of tiny gaps on the backside of the back ash cross
piece. Also, the spruce cross piece in the very back has just a little
squeeze out.
Should I cut it off and do it again? If so, do I have to sand all the
glue off the longerons? Seems like I would lose too much longeron if
that's the case.
Thanks in advance for any and all advice.
Ken in Austin, who will get a helping hand next time and will never rely
on plastic clamps again.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a quality control question |
Do you plan to put the metal tie straps from one
landing gear fitting to the other? I added a 1/2"
quarter round all of the way around the edge of the
floor against the longerons to strengthen and clean up
the joint. I used t88 and air nailed it in place. I
wouldn't pull the floor, you would do more harm than
good, in my opinion.
Del
--- Ken Chambers wrote:
>
>
> Hey everybody,
>
> Here's the deal. I glued my floor on last week and
> it's not perfect.
>
> There are no gaps on the vast majority of it, and
> there are no gaps at
> all on the outside. There are sections, particularly
> near the pilots
> seat, where no glue squeezed out. There is one
> section on the inside of
> about 6 inches with a gap of about 1/16 of an inch
> for 4 or 5 inches. It
> is almost perfectly glued to the front ash piece but
> there is no squeeze
> out and a couple of tiny gaps on the backside of the
> back ash cross
> piece. Also, the spruce cross piece in the very back
> has just a little
> squeeze out.
>
> Should I cut it off and do it again? If so, do I
> have to sand all the
> glue off the longerons? Seems like I would lose too
> much longeron if
> that's the case.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all advice.
>
> Ken in Austin, who will get a helping hand next time
> and will never rely
> on plastic clamps again.
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Chambers" <kengg(at)texas.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a quality control question |
Thanks Dell, I think you're right about damaging the longerons. I'll
consider the straps.
----- Original Message -----
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a quality control question
>
> Do you plan to put the metal tie straps from one
> landing gear fitting to the other? I added a 1/2"
> quarter round all of the way around the edge of the
> floor against the longerons to strengthen and clean up
> the joint. I used t88 and air nailed it in place. I
> wouldn't pull the floor, you would do more harm than
> good, in my opinion.
> Del
> --- Ken Chambers wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hey everybody,
> >
> > Here's the deal. I glued my floor on last week and
> > it's not perfect.
> >
> > There are no gaps on the vast majority of it, and
> > there are no gaps at
> > all on the outside. There are sections, particularly
> > near the pilots
> > seat, where no glue squeezed out. There is one
> > section on the inside of
> > about 6 inches with a gap of about 1/16 of an inch
> > for 4 or 5 inches. It
> > is almost perfectly glued to the front ash piece but
> > there is no squeeze
> > out and a couple of tiny gaps on the backside of the
> > back ash cross
> > piece. Also, the spruce cross piece in the very back
> > has just a little
> > squeeze out.
> >
> > Should I cut it off and do it again? If so, do I
> > have to sand all the
> > glue off the longerons? Seems like I would lose too
> > much longeron if
> > that's the case.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any and all advice.
> >
> > Ken in Austin, who will get a helping hand next time
> > and will never rely
> > on plastic clamps again.
> >
> >
> >
> > Forum -
> > Contributions of
> > any other form
> >
> > latest messages.
> > other List members.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/search
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Chambers" <kengg(at)texas.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a quality control question |
Ooops sorry Del. Guess I've written to many brochures for Dell computer to
spell your name correctly.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Chambers <kengg(at)texas.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a quality control question
>
> Thanks Dell, I think you're right about damaging the longerons. I'll
> consider the straps.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a quality control question
>
>
>
> >
> > Do you plan to put the metal tie straps from one
> > landing gear fitting to the other? I added a 1/2"
> > quarter round all of the way around the edge of the
> > floor against the longerons to strengthen and clean up
> > the joint. I used t88 and air nailed it in place. I
> > wouldn't pull the floor, you would do more harm than
> > good, in my opinion.
> > Del
> > --- Ken Chambers wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey everybody,
> > >
> > > Here's the deal. I glued my floor on last week and
> > > it's not perfect.
> > >
> > > There are no gaps on the vast majority of it, and
> > > there are no gaps at
> > > all on the outside. There are sections, particularly
> > > near the pilots
> > > seat, where no glue squeezed out. There is one
> > > section on the inside of
> > > about 6 inches with a gap of about 1/16 of an inch
> > > for 4 or 5 inches. It
> > > is almost perfectly glued to the front ash piece but
> > > there is no squeeze
> > > out and a couple of tiny gaps on the backside of the
> > > back ash cross
> > > piece. Also, the spruce cross piece in the very back
> > > has just a little
> > > squeeze out.
> > >
> > > Should I cut it off and do it again? If so, do I
> > > have to sand all the
> > > glue off the longerons? Seems like I would lose too
> > > much longeron if
> > > that's the case.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for any and all advice.
> > >
> > > Ken in Austin, who will get a helping hand next time
> > > and will never rely
> > > on plastic clamps again.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Forum -
> > > Contributions of
> > > any other form
> > >
> > > latest messages.
> > > other List members.
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > http://www.matronics.com/search
> > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 06/24/02 |
| From: | rhartwig11(at)juno.com |
Whoever posted the info about the CAD drawings, please post it again. I
downloaded TurboCad and then found the I had deleted the Pietenpol list
for that day. OOPS!
Dick Hartwig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Hey Pieters,
While on vacation last week we found ourselves in southern Ohio with a
couple days to hang around. Tried to get some tail dragger time at Stewart
Airport in Waynesville, but all instructors were booked. You have to go with
a CFI unless you have renters insurance, but they rent a J3, Champ, T-craft,
and more and its grass.
I contacted Larry Williams and arranged to meet him at the airport and see
his completed Piet, see pictures of it at matronics photoshare. He is a
great craftsman and it shows in his Piet. Larry was installing his wheels
when we drove up, his machinist had installed brass bearings and they
started grabbing after about 11 hours flying time, so Larry got some oilite,
oil impregnated Bronze and had new bearings made and installed in the
wheels.
After dinner with Larry his hanger mate Pat and the wives, we returned to
the airport. Pat propped the model A and Larry taxied around some with his
wife to work in the new bearings. After his wife got out he got Pat to prop
him again and this time took off and went around the pattern a couple times,
landing just before dark.
The bird looked and flew great, looking forward to seeing it again at
Brodhead.
Piet list at-large reporter.
Skip Gadd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Any Air Campers in Central PA? |
Hi all
I,ve been thinking about building a Pietentol for quite a while, but I
have never flown in one. I would really like to see how they fly before
I start making saw dust. Are there any Piet owners out there in central
PA that I could talk into getting a ride from? My weight, 190 lbs.
Thanks
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: D Voisine
To: dilatush(at)amigo.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:00 PM
Subject: Your Photos at
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/dilatush@amigo.net.02.17.2002
Hi, I hope you don't mind answering a few question about the
aircamper? I'm looking at buying the plans from the Pietenpol family but
I've got a few questions first and I really have not gotten satisfactory
answers from them. I weight over 200lbs and I'm six feet will I fit in
the extended version and will I be able to take someone that is the same
size and be able to get off the ground in 300 to 400 hundred feet?? What
is the registered gross weight of you're aircamper with the Subaru
engine? I have limited experience building with wood, will this project
be a possible task for me and how long did it take you to complete it??
I hope you don't mind all the questions, thanks for the help and
you're piet looks great!!
Dean
British Columbia, Canada
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dean,
I can understand why you have not gotten satisfactory answers to your
questions, because there are no definitive answers.
Whether or not you can take off in 3 or 400 feet depends upon the
conditions underwhich you will operate the plane. At sea level? How
hot is the day? Paved or grass field? How much power is available? Is
the prop a climb prop? What is the weight of the plane? And so
on---------.
There are Pietenpol builders and fliers with much more experience than
I have and I would refer you to them. May I suggest Steve Eldridge,
Mike Cuy, Jim Malley, Jim Kinsella or Mike Brusilow all active on the
Pietenpol list. You could also call Vi Kapler at 507-288-3322 who is
one of the more experienced in the art of Pietenpols. ( he was a close
friend of Bernie Pietenpol) . I would also suggest that you get a copy
of the Pietenpol Directory from Doc Mosher at 920-727-1534 for $5.00 and
then try and get in touch with some of the other pilots. You will find
all will be very friendly and helpful to you.
As for your question about my Piet, the registered gross weight of the
plane is 1225 lbs, the actual gross complete two 170 lb passengers, with
electrical system, 20 gallons of fuel, brakes, tow hook and tailwheel,
ELT, butt padding in the cockpits, intercom and a few other extras has
come out to about 1300 lbs. (796 lbs empty). I am not too concerned
about the overweight because the engine is putting out at least 111 hp
at this altutude, 7946 feet. This makes the wing loading at 9 lbs/sq ft
and the power loading at 11.8 lbs/hp. I have made a few minor changes
to strengthen the airframe to take the higher load factors, such as fir
spars and longerons.
The project has taken me about 7 yrs with time out for heart bypass
surgery and some furniture making for my wife. Probably 5 years of part
time (although a little bit everyday) construction time is more
accurate. My wood working experience was limited to begin with, you
will learn as you go if you read the books available.
I am taking the liberty of posting your inquiry and my reply on the
list, so that others may also be of help to you.
Good luck on your project, you will enjoy it!
John, NX114D Got thru the final inspection and now have an
airworthiness certificate, first flight in a few days!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)email.msn.com> |
John,
Congrats on the certification. I"m sure you will let us all know how it
goes. Good Luck!!
Doug Blackburn
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Photos at
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/dilatush@amigo.net.02.17.2002
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D Voisine
> To: dilatush(at)amigo.net
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:00 PM
> Subject: Your Photos at
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/dilatush@amigo.net.02.17.2002
>
>
> Hi, I hope you don't mind answering a few question about the
> aircamper? I'm looking at buying the plans from the Pietenpol family but
> I've got a few questions first and I really have not gotten satisfactory
> answers from them. I weight over 200lbs and I'm six feet will I fit in
> the extended version and will I be able to take someone that is the same
> size and be able to get off the ground in 300 to 400 hundred feet?? What
> is the registered gross weight of you're aircamper with the Subaru
> engine? I have limited experience building with wood, will this project
> be a possible task for me and how long did it take you to complete it??
> I hope you don't mind all the questions, thanks for the help and
> you're piet looks great!!
> Dean
> British Columbia, Canada
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Dean,
>
> I can understand why you have not gotten satisfactory answers to your
> questions, because there are no definitive answers.
>
> Whether or not you can take off in 3 or 400 feet depends upon the
> conditions underwhich you will operate the plane. At sea level? How
> hot is the day? Paved or grass field? How much power is available? Is
> the prop a climb prop? What is the weight of the plane? And so
> on---------.
>
> There are Pietenpol builders and fliers with much more experience than
> I have and I would refer you to them. May I suggest Steve Eldridge,
> Mike Cuy, Jim Malley, Jim Kinsella or Mike Brusilow all active on the
> Pietenpol list. You could also call Vi Kapler at 507-288-3322 who is
> one of the more experienced in the art of Pietenpols. ( he was a close
> friend of Bernie Pietenpol) . I would also suggest that you get a copy
> of the Pietenpol Directory from Doc Mosher at 920-727-1534 for $5.00 and
> then try and get in touch with some of the other pilots. You will find
> all will be very friendly and helpful to you.
>
> As for your question about my Piet, the registered gross weight of the
> plane is 1225 lbs, the actual gross complete two 170 lb passengers, with
> electrical system, 20 gallons of fuel, brakes, tow hook and tailwheel,
> ELT, butt padding in the cockpits, intercom and a few other extras has
> come out to about 1300 lbs. (796 lbs empty). I am not too concerned
> about the overweight because the engine is putting out at least 111 hp
> at this altutude, 7946 feet. This makes the wing loading at 9 lbs/sq ft
> and the power loading at 11.8 lbs/hp. I have made a few minor changes
> to strengthen the airframe to take the higher load factors, such as fir
> spars and longerons.
>
> The project has taken me about 7 yrs with time out for heart bypass
> surgery and some furniture making for my wife. Probably 5 years of part
> time (although a little bit everyday) construction time is more
> accurate. My wood working experience was limited to begin with, you
> will learn as you go if you read the books available.
>
> I am taking the liberty of posting your inquiry and my reply on the
> list, so that others may also be of help to you.
>
> Good luck on your project, you will enjoy it!
>
> John, NX114D Got thru the final inspection and now have an
> airworthiness certificate, first flight in a few days!
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
Does anyone, besides the seller, have particular knowledge about the "Ragwing
Pietenpol GN1 2 Place" on ebay as Item # 1839226879?
Mike Hardaway
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | To Fly, is to Live |
I flew my plane this evening (Tuesday), for the second time !! YEEE HAAWW!!
What a rushhh !! I logged over an hour flight time this beautiful evening.
After my first flight, I felt like there was something going on in that ol'
Model A engine, so I changed the mag. The past couple of weeks, I redesigned
the mag mounting bracket, and had to redesign the mag coupling, too. I also
changed the impeller in the water pump, to get a little more circulation. I
also adjusted the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer down a little, to
help reduce the aft stick pressure, but it will have to be adjusted some
more, because I still have too much aft stick force, to maintain level
flight. In level flight, the elevators (some call them 'flippers') are down
about 3, and when I pull enough to make them parallel with the horizontal
stab, it pitches the nose up way too much. I'm thinking about adding a
spring to the elevator bell crank (I think Mike Cuy, and maybe some others
did this) to reduce my aft stick pressure, but I would rather reduce this aft
stick force aerodynamically. Adjusting the L.E. of the stab down helps, but
it isn't enough. I also drilled out the pitot static tube, from #50 hole to
#40 hole, to get the airspeed indicator, and altimeter to react more
quickly...it worked. I finally got the engine running yesterday. The
winds were calm today, so I called in work, and took a vacation day this
evening. Well worth it !! Benton Airpark was reletively quiet all day, but
this evening...everybody decided to fly !! There was 3 Piper Cubs, the
Stearman, an RV6, and a couple of C-150's in using the airport this evening.
BUSY PLACE...no radio...eyes peeled. Three times I was in the pattern to
land, but there was a plane on the grass strip, and I had to go around. I'm
gonna try to get out there in the morning, to practice my landings...I need
lots of practice !! The engine still wants to quit running, on short final,
when I pull power to idle, so I have to keep goosing the power, to keep the
engine running, and then I'm too hot on short final, so I had to do a wheels
landing, and stab the stick forward after the mains touched, which keeps the
wing at a low angle of attack to keep the plane on the ground, and then I
could keep the engine running. It idles fine with tail low attitude, on the
ground. I've still got some carburetor gremlins. I think maybe the fuel
level in the bowl is too high, and in level flight attitude at idle, it is
too rich. I think I'll do a static run, with the tail up in level flight
attitude, and see what happens. Should have done that long ago. It burns
WAY too much fuel...5 g.p.h. Oh, did I tell ya I took from pictures while I
flew this evening? As soon as I get them developed, I'll scan 'em in, and
send ya some shots of the Kansas countryside !!
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Myers <jmyers(at)powernet.org> |
Mike, I have no particular knowledge about the aircraft but you might want
to review archives. I think this one was discussed sometime last
year. For some reason, I seem to recall it was very near the 9/11 time
frame but not sure. It has been on Ebay a couple of times. If memory
serves me, there was discussion about whether it was a Piet or a "Ragwing"
replica and what type of engine would be suitable.
Good luck,
John
>
>Does anyone, besides the seller, have particular knowledge about the "Ragwing
>Pietenpol GN1 2 Place" on ebay as Item # 1839226879?
>
>Mike Hardaway
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)gregyotz.com> |
| Subject: | To Fly, is to Live |
Sometimes it's good to be Chuck...
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net> |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
> Its silly to think that the Ultra-Piet (single place ultralight) and
> Bernie's Pietenpol Air Camper (2 place exp airplane) are in conflict, in
> my opinion.
Actually, the person who may have the greatest cause for hard feelings
against Roger Mann is Wayne Ison, who believes--accurately, in the
opinion of a friend who has studied both sets of plans--that the Ultra-Piet,
aside from cosmetics, was a straight knock-off of the HiMax. This was
confirmed, as an aside to a comment about the resemblance between the
Legal Eagle and the Airbike, by Ison himself at Sun 'n Fun this year.
Owen Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any Air Campers in Central PA? |
Go to Paul Dockerty's Golden Age Air Museum at Grimes Airport just north of
Harrisburg. He has a Model A Piet and you could probably get a ride. He is
having a Fly-in on July 6-7, but I won't be able to make it this year.
----- Original Message -----
From: morrisons5 <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Any Air Campers in Central PA?
>
> Hi all
> I,ve been thinking about building a Pietentol for quite a while, but I
> have never flown in one. I would really like to see how they fly before
> I start making saw dust. Are there any Piet owners out there in central
> PA that I could talk into getting a ride from? My weight, 190 lbs.
>
> Thanks
> Malcolm Morrison
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> |
In looking through postings and talking to owners of different aircraft,
I get very confused about fuel economy. It seems that model A's burn 4
gph at ? speed, and corvairs burn 5.5 gph at ? speed. But Rotax engines
of similar HP only burn 2.5 gph. Why the big difference for engines
that appear to put out similar HP? What speeds/gph do most Piet flyers
see?
Thanks
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)email.msn.com> |
Well gents,
I suppose this is why I monitor the list rather then respond. The full
size piet, which was a two place/two seater that Roger had plans for, is the
one he discontinued, not his single seat Ultra-light version. Please don't
turn this into a big thing. When Mike originally asked about the plane, I
was just trying to pass on info as to it's origin, and how he could get in
touch with that person so he could get his questions answered, nothing more,
and no hidden agenda. I don't like bashing folks, and that was not my
intent.
Doug B.
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ebay sale
>
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
>
> > Its silly to think that the Ultra-Piet (single place ultralight) and
> > Bernie's Pietenpol Air Camper (2 place exp airplane) are in conflict, in
> > my opinion.
>
> Actually, the person who may have the greatest cause for hard feelings
> against Roger Mann is Wayne Ison, who believes--accurately, in the
> opinion of a friend who has studied both sets of plans--that the
Ultra-Piet,
> aside from cosmetics, was a straight knock-off of the HiMax. This was
> confirmed, as an aside to a comment about the resemblance between the
> Legal Eagle and the Airbike, by Ison himself at Sun 'n Fun this year.
>
> Owen Davies
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
My first guess would be higher compression, hence more expansion and work
from each little explosion. But I'm not really up on engines. Any other
comments?
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: morrisons5 [mailto:morrisons5(at)adelphia.net]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
In looking through postings and talking to owners of different aircraft,
I get very confused about fuel economy. It seems that model A's burn 4
gph at ? speed, and corvairs burn 5.5 gph at ? speed. But Rotax engines
of similar HP only burn 2.5 gph. Why the big difference for engines
that appear to put out similar HP? What speeds/gph do most Piet flyers
see?
Thanks
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Well, let's see - the model A was developed 75 years ago and burns 4 gph
putting out about 30 hp (crusing at 75% power), or 0.133 gallons per
hp-hour. The Continental A-65 (developed in 1938) burns about 4.5 gph,
putting out 42hp (cruising at 75% power) or 0.107 gallons per hp-hour. The
Rotax 912UL puts out 81 hp, or cruises at 58 hp and burns 5.1 gals/hr at
cruise, or .088 gallons per hp-hour. Since the Rotax is at least 50 years
newer than the Continental, you would expect some gains in efficiency. Of
course, the Rotax screams like a banshee, running at 5,000 rpm even when
crusing at 75% power, compared to the satisfying chug of the Continental, or
the even more satisfying chug of the Ford. A large part of the efficeincy
of the Rotax comes from operating the engine at that speed, far above the
best operating speed of large diameter propellers, which necessitates a
geared engine. The Rotax also sells for $10,000, and is warranteed for a
full 100 hours of operation (WhooHoo!). It also carries this warning:
Danger!
This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden stoppage! Engine stoppage
can result in crash landings. Such crash landings can lead to serious
bodily injury or death.
Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine at locations, airspeeds,
altitudes or other circumstances from which a successful no-power landing
canot be made, after sudden engine stoppage. Aircraft equipped with this
engine should only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR conditions.
Sort of makes you want to rush right out and plunk down $10K just to hear
that Banshee whine, doesn't it? No thanks, I'll stick with my Continental,
with its lovely sound and 1500 hour time between overhauls.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hubbard,
Eugene
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
My first guess would be higher compression, hence more expansion and work
from each little explosion. But I'm not really up on engines. Any other
comments?
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: morrisons5 [mailto:morrisons5(at)adelphia.net]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
In looking through postings and talking to owners of different aircraft,
I get very confused about fuel economy. It seems that model A's burn 4
gph at ? speed, and corvairs burn 5.5 gph at ? speed. But Rotax engines
of similar HP only burn 2.5 gph. Why the big difference for engines
that appear to put out similar HP? What speeds/gph do most Piet flyers
see?
Thanks
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel economy? |
I do not think that you can make the gal/hp/hr comparison you have here. I
know we have discussed this before (and I still don't understand it
completely), but torque must enter into the equation, because a 1914 OX5
puts out 90 hp at 7-8 gph, while a 90 hp Continental or Franklin may burn
4-5 gph, but would not even turn over an OX propeller. Similarly, your $10K
"screaming banshee" Rotax would wind itself into the ground before it would
lift a Champ or Cub with two people in it. The Model A engine has a lot
more torque, so the comparison below is not complete.
Gene (not trying to start a fight, just to make sure that the original
person's question is answered with as much confusion as possible)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
>
> Well, let's see - the model A was developed 75 years ago and burns 4 gph
> putting out about 30 hp (crusing at 75% power), or 0.133 gallons per
> hp-hour. The Continental A-65 (developed in 1938) burns about 4.5 gph,
> putting out 42hp (cruising at 75% power) or 0.107 gallons per hp-hour.
The
> Rotax 912UL puts out 81 hp, or cruises at 58 hp and burns 5.1 gals/hr at
> cruise, or .088 gallons per hp-hour. Since the Rotax is at least 50 years
> newer than the Continental, you would expect some gains in efficiency. Of
> course, the Rotax screams like a banshee, running at 5,000 rpm even when
> crusing at 75% power, compared to the satisfying chug of the Continental,
or
> the even more satisfying chug of the Ford. A large part of the efficeincy
> of the Rotax comes from operating the engine at that speed, far above the
> best operating speed of large diameter propellers, which necessitates a
> geared engine. The Rotax also sells for $10,000, and is warranteed for a
> full 100 hours of operation (WhooHoo!). It also carries this warning:
>
> Danger!
> This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden stoppage! Engine
stoppage
> can result in crash landings. Such crash landings can lead to serious
> bodily injury or death.
> Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine at locations, airspeeds,
> altitudes or other circumstances from which a successful no-power landing
> canot be made, after sudden engine stoppage. Aircraft equipped with this
> engine should only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR conditions.
> Sort of makes you want to rush right out and plunk down $10K just to hear
> that Banshee whine, doesn't it? No thanks, I'll stick with my
Continental,
> with its lovely sound and 1500 hour time between overhauls.
>
> Jack
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hubbard,
> Eugene
> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:38 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
>
>
> My first guess would be higher compression, hence more expansion and work
> from each little explosion. But I'm not really up on engines. Any other
> comments?
>
> Gene
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: morrisons5 [mailto:morrisons5(at)adelphia.net]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
>
>
>
> In looking through postings and talking to owners of different aircraft,
> I get very confused about fuel economy. It seems that model A's burn 4
> gph at ? speed, and corvairs burn 5.5 gph at ? speed. But Rotax engines
> of similar HP only burn 2.5 gph. Why the big difference for engines
> that appear to put out similar HP? What speeds/gph do most Piet flyers
> see?
>
> Thanks
> Malcolm Morrison
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rod wooller" <rodwooller(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/21/02 |
Dick,
Thanks for the info. We will plan on being there for the 25th.
A ride in a Piet would be a great way to celebrate my 57th birthday!
Many thanks,
Rod Wooller
>From: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/21/02
>Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:10:25 -0500
>
>
>Rod,
>AirVenture for 2003 is July 29 to Aug 4. That would mean that Brodhead
>would be the weekend before--July 25 thru 27th. I will let you know if I
>can confirm that date.
>Dick Hartwig
>
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <genet(at)iwon.com> |
Group,
I findthat least for me it helps to remember tha hourse power is a marketing turm
invented to sell steam engines.It is a rate
function where as, torque, is purely a measure of force. The old model A with
its long stroke is capable of doing a lot of work at a relitivly low rate where
the rotax relies heavly on its ability to turn very fast in order to swing the
hourse power equation in its favor. big slow turning engines use more of the
heat thay produce to genereate real work than small high reving ones. The most
efficient internal combustion engines in the world are very large diesels use
in direct drive ship propulsion.
Sulzer diesel built a 6 cylinder diesel which was 53% thermal
efficient. The best auto engines struggle to beat 30%.As far as economy and the
Air Camper I'm sure drag is the overideing factor
regardless of the powerplant on the nose. So much energy is wasted pushing a high
lift high drag airfoil stuts wires and everthing else along that economy just
isen't why we build and fly them.
Gene
In St Louis
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel economy? |
Gene, and everybody else:
Yes, you can make the gal/hr/Hp comparison because it is exactly that comparison
that gives you comparative efficiency of engines. It's called specific fuel
consumption. It can also be measured in lb/hr/Hp. In jets, it's lb/hr/lb
thrust.
In any engine, power, whether it is expressed as Horsepower or Watts or
whatever, is the product of torque times rotational speed. If you have an
engine turning at 1,000 rpm and producing 100 Hp, it is producing 10 times as
much torque as an engine producing 100 Hp at 10,000 rpm, but they are both
producing exactly the same amount of power.
If you got lucky and found a 100% efficient 10:1 reduction unit and put it on
the high-rev engine, the output from the reduction unit would still be producing
100 Hp but at 1,000 rpm, the same as the slow-rev engine. The torque of the
high-rev engine measured at the output of the reduction unit would be 10 times
greater than it was at the input to the reduction unit. With that
combination, the high-rev engine would turn exactly the same prop as the
slow-rev engine.
Now, most of us realize that a 100% efficient reduction unit doesn't exist and
that engine choices are based on a lot of valid considerations other than pure
efficiency, but the most efficient engine is the one that gets the lowest
specific fuel consumption.
Mike Hardaway
Gene Rambo wrote:
>
> I do not think that you can make the gal/hp/hr comparison you have here. I
> know we have discussed this before (and I still don't understand it
> completely), but torque must enter into the equation, because a 1914 OX5
> puts out 90 hp at 7-8 gph, while a 90 hp Continental or Franklin may burn
> 4-5 gph, but would not even turn over an OX propeller. Similarly, your $10K
> "screaming banshee" Rotax would wind itself into the ground before it would
> lift a Champ or Cub with two people in it. The Model A engine has a lot
> more torque, so the comparison below is not complete.
>
> Gene (not trying to start a fight, just to make sure that the original
> person's question is answered with as much confusion as possible)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
>
>
> >
> > Well, let's see - the model A was developed 75 years ago and burns 4 gph
> > putting out about 30 hp (crusing at 75% power), or 0.133 gallons per
> > hp-hour. The Continental A-65 (developed in 1938) burns about 4.5 gph,
> > putting out 42hp (cruising at 75% power) or 0.107 gallons per hp-hour.
> The
> > Rotax 912UL puts out 81 hp, or cruises at 58 hp and burns 5.1 gals/hr at
> > cruise, or .088 gallons per hp-hour. Since the Rotax is at least 50 years
> > newer than the Continental, you would expect some gains in efficiency. Of
> > course, the Rotax screams like a banshee, running at 5,000 rpm even when
> > crusing at 75% power, compared to the satisfying chug of the Continental,
> or
> > the even more satisfying chug of the Ford. A large part of the efficeincy
> > of the Rotax comes from operating the engine at that speed, far above the
> > best operating speed of large diameter propellers, which necessitates a
> > geared engine. The Rotax also sells for $10,000, and is warranteed for a
> > full 100 hours of operation (WhooHoo!). It also carries this warning:
> >
> > Danger!
> > This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden stoppage! Engine
> stoppage
> > can result in crash landings. Such crash landings can lead to serious
> > bodily injury or death.
> > Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine at locations, airspeeds,
> > altitudes or other circumstances from which a successful no-power landing
> > canot be made, after sudden engine stoppage. Aircraft equipped with this
> > engine should only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR conditions.
> > Sort of makes you want to rush right out and plunk down $10K just to hear
> > that Banshee whine, doesn't it? No thanks, I'll stick with my
> Continental,
> > with its lovely sound and 1500 hour time between overhauls.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hubbard,
> > Eugene
> > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:38 AM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
> >
>
> >
> > My first guess would be higher compression, hence more expansion and work
> > from each little explosion. But I'm not really up on engines. Any other
> > comments?
> >
> > Gene
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: morrisons5 [mailto:morrisons5(at)adelphia.net]
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
> >
> >
>
> >
> > In looking through postings and talking to owners of different aircraft,
> > I get very confused about fuel economy. It seems that model A's burn 4
> > gph at ? speed, and corvairs burn 5.5 gph at ? speed. But Rotax engines
> > of similar HP only burn 2.5 gph. Why the big difference for engines
> > that appear to put out similar HP? What speeds/gph do most Piet flyers
> > see?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Malcolm Morrison
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Copy of designs |
--- Owen Davies wrote:
>
>
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
>
>
> > Its silly to think that the Ultra-Piet (single
> place ultralight) and
> > Bernie's Pietenpol Air Camper (2 place exp
> airplane) are in conflict, in
> > my opinion.
>
> Actually, the person who may have the greatest cause
> for hard feelings
> against Roger Mann is Wayne Ison, who
> believes--accurately, in the
> opinion of a friend who has studied both sets of
> plans--that the Ultra-Piet,
> aside from cosmetics, was a straight knock-off of
> the HiMax. This was
> confirmed, as an aside to a comment about the
> resemblance between the
> Legal Eagle and the Airbike, by Ison himself at Sun
> 'n Fun this year.
>
> Owen Davies
>
Is very dificult (at least for me) to think in
designing (or building) a plane without remembering
great ideas seen in another plane that could be built
in mine.
I think that most of the (plans builts) modern
airplanes "designs" are a copy of another (or
several) proven airplane, with the personal
improvements or "touch" of the "designer".
There are only a really few one of the kind... like
Molt Taylor paper glass airplane...
Even thinking about the Eze CONSTRUCTION method of
Rutan Designer- Genious... Which was first Rand
Robinson KR-1 or the VariEze?
How many ideas (little or complicated) are copied in
every flyinn by other builders?
Crude copies are the ones that cause pain...
When we use an idea we see in another plane, we should
always at least thank the builder who thought of it
first :-)
Just my thought,
Saludos
Gary Gower
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Horse Power? was Fuel economy? |
"Horse Power" comparition is amazing!!!
A few months ago we went to a farm near here for a
week end... Well, we were 12 persons riding in a
wooden carriage (heavy) built with a rear axle 20" rim
from an old pick up. Pulled by a single horse
"fastened" to the carriage by two 4" by 4" s over a
dirt road (if could be called a road).
I just cant imagine any 1 hp (or 5HP) Briggs and
Straton engine (with a propulsion wheel of course)
that could even MOVE the carriage by itself!!!
I think same happen with 1930's horse power in the
engines...
Just a thought.
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Mike Hardaway wrote:
>
>
> Gene, and everybody else:
>
> Yes, you can make the gal/hr/Hp comparison because
> it is exactly that comparison
> that gives you comparative efficiency of engines.
> It's called specific fuel
> consumption. It can also be measured in lb/hr/Hp.
> In jets, it's lb/hr/lb
> thrust.
>
> In any engine, power, whether it is expressed as
> Horsepower or Watts or
> whatever, is the product of torque times rotational
> speed. If you have an
> engine turning at 1,000 rpm and producing 100 Hp, it
> is producing 10 times as
> much torque as an engine producing 100 Hp at 10,000
> rpm, but they are both
> producing exactly the same amount of power.
> If you got lucky and found a 100% efficient 10:1
> reduction unit and put it on
> the high-rev engine, the output from the reduction
> unit would still be producing
> 100 Hp but at 1,000 rpm, the same as the slow-rev
> engine. The torque of the
> high-rev engine measured at the output of the
> reduction unit would be 10 times
> greater than it was at the input to the reduction
> unit. With that
> combination, the high-rev engine would turn exactly
> the same prop as the
> slow-rev engine.
>
> Now, most of us realize that a 100% efficient
> reduction unit doesn't exist and
> that engine choices are based on a lot of valid
> considerations other than pure
> efficiency, but the most efficient engine is the one
> that gets the lowest
> specific fuel consumption.
>
> Mike Hardaway
>
>
> Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I do not think that you can make the gal/hp/hr
> comparison you have here. I
> > know we have discussed this before (and I still
> don't understand it
> > completely), but torque must enter into the
> equation, because a 1914 OX5
> > puts out 90 hp at 7-8 gph, while a 90 hp
> Continental or Franklin may burn
> > 4-5 gph, but would not even turn over an OX
> propeller. Similarly, your $10K
> > "screaming banshee" Rotax would wind itself into
> the ground before it would
> > lift a Champ or Cub with two people in it. The
> Model A engine has a lot
> > more torque, so the comparison below is not
> complete.
> >
> > Gene (not trying to start a fight, just to make
> sure that the original
> > person's question is answered with as much
> confusion as possible)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
> >
> Phillips"
> >
> > >
> > > Well, let's see - the model A was developed 75
> years ago and burns 4 gph
> > > putting out about 30 hp (crusing at 75% power),
> or 0.133 gallons per
> > > hp-hour. The Continental A-65 (developed in
> 1938) burns about 4.5 gph,
> > > putting out 42hp (cruising at 75% power) or
> 0.107 gallons per hp-hour.
> > The
> > > Rotax 912UL puts out 81 hp, or cruises at 58 hp
> and burns 5.1 gals/hr at
> > > cruise, or .088 gallons per hp-hour. Since the
> Rotax is at least 50 years
> > > newer than the Continental, you would expect
> some gains in efficiency. Of
> > > course, the Rotax screams like a banshee,
> running at 5,000 rpm even when
> > > crusing at 75% power, compared to the satisfying
> chug of the Continental,
> > or
> > > the even more satisfying chug of the Ford. A
> large part of the efficeincy
> > > of the Rotax comes from operating the engine at
> that speed, far above the
> > > best operating speed of large diameter
> propellers, which necessitates a
> > > geared engine. The Rotax also sells for
> $10,000, and is warranteed for a
> > > full 100 hours of operation (WhooHoo!). It also
> carries this warning:
> > >
> > > Danger!
> > > This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden
> stoppage! Engine
> > stoppage
> > > can result in crash landings. Such crash
> landings can lead to serious
> > > bodily injury or death.
> > > Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine
> at locations, airspeeds,
> > > altitudes or other circumstances from which a
> successful no-power landing
> > > canot be made, after sudden engine stoppage.
> Aircraft equipped with this
> > > engine should only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR
> conditions.
> > > Sort of makes you want to rush right out and
> plunk down $10K just to hear
> > > that Banshee whine, doesn't it? No thanks, I'll
> stick with my
> > Continental,
> > > with its lovely sound and 1500 hour time between
> overhauls.
> > >
> > > Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Horse Power? was Fuel economy? |
Sometime in the laste 1700's, James Watt (the guy who wasn't actually the
inventor of the steam engine, not the little former U.S. Interior secretary)
determined that an average draft horse could raise 33,000 Lb one foot in one
minute through a pulley system. His publications established that as the unit
by which power is measured... so one "HorsePower" equals 33,000 ft-lb per
minute or 550 ft-lb per second. It has almost nothing to do with what a
determined horse can actually accomplish. Even humans have been measured
exerting power greater than one Hp for short periods of time.
Gary Gower wrote:
>
> "Horse Power" comparition is amazing!!!
>
> A few months ago we went to a farm near here for a
> week end... Well, we were 12 persons riding in a
> wooden carriage (heavy) built with a rear axle 20" rim
> from an old pick up. Pulled by a single horse
> "fastened" to the carriage by two 4" by 4" s over a
> dirt road (if could be called a road).
>
> I just cant imagine any 1 hp (or 5HP) Briggs and
> Straton engine (with a propulsion wheel of course)
> that could even MOVE the carriage by itself!!!
>
> I think same happen with 1930's horse power in the
> engines...
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
>
> --- Mike Hardaway wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gene, and everybody else:
> >
> > Yes, you can make the gal/hr/Hp comparison because
> > it is exactly that comparison
> > that gives you comparative efficiency of engines.
> > It's called specific fuel
> > consumption. It can also be measured in lb/hr/Hp.
> > In jets, it's lb/hr/lb
> > thrust.
> >
> > In any engine, power, whether it is expressed as
> > Horsepower or Watts or
> > whatever, is the product of torque times rotational
> > speed. If you have an
> > engine turning at 1,000 rpm and producing 100 Hp, it
> > is producing 10 times as
> > much torque as an engine producing 100 Hp at 10,000
> > rpm, but they are both
> > producing exactly the same amount of power.
> > If you got lucky and found a 100% efficient 10:1
> > reduction unit and put it on
> > the high-rev engine, the output from the reduction
> > unit would still be producing
> > 100 Hp but at 1,000 rpm, the same as the slow-rev
> > engine. The torque of the
> > high-rev engine measured at the output of the
> > reduction unit would be 10 times
> > greater than it was at the input to the reduction
> > unit. With that
> > combination, the high-rev engine would turn exactly
> > the same prop as the
> > slow-rev engine.
> >
> > Now, most of us realize that a 100% efficient
> > reduction unit doesn't exist and
> > that engine choices are based on a lot of valid
> > considerations other than pure
> > efficiency, but the most efficient engine is the one
> > that gets the lowest
> > specific fuel consumption.
> >
> > Mike Hardaway
> >
> >
> > Gene Rambo wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I do not think that you can make the gal/hp/hr
> > comparison you have here. I
> > > know we have discussed this before (and I still
> > don't understand it
> > > completely), but torque must enter into the
> > equation, because a 1914 OX5
> > > puts out 90 hp at 7-8 gph, while a 90 hp
> > Continental or Franklin may burn
> > > 4-5 gph, but would not even turn over an OX
> > propeller. Similarly, your $10K
> > > "screaming banshee" Rotax would wind itself into
> > the ground before it would
> > > lift a Champ or Cub with two people in it. The
> > Model A engine has a lot
> > > more torque, so the comparison below is not
> > complete.
> > >
> > > Gene (not trying to start a fight, just to make
> > sure that the original
> > > person's question is answered with as much
> > confusion as possible)
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jack Phillips <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel economy?
> > >
> > Phillips"
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, let's see - the model A was developed 75
> > years ago and burns 4 gph
> > > > putting out about 30 hp (crusing at 75% power),
> > or 0.133 gallons per
> > > > hp-hour. The Continental A-65 (developed in
> > 1938) burns about 4.5 gph,
> > > > putting out 42hp (cruising at 75% power) or
> > 0.107 gallons per hp-hour.
> > > The
> > > > Rotax 912UL puts out 81 hp, or cruises at 58 hp
> > and burns 5.1 gals/hr at
> > > > cruise, or .088 gallons per hp-hour. Since the
> > Rotax is at least 50 years
> > > > newer than the Continental, you would expect
> > some gains in efficiency. Of
> > > > course, the Rotax screams like a banshee,
> > running at 5,000 rpm even when
> > > > crusing at 75% power, compared to the satisfying
> > chug of the Continental,
> > > or
> > > > the even more satisfying chug of the Ford. A
> > large part of the efficeincy
> > > > of the Rotax comes from operating the engine at
> > that speed, far above the
> > > > best operating speed of large diameter
> > propellers, which necessitates a
> > > > geared engine. The Rotax also sells for
> > $10,000, and is warranteed for a
> > > > full 100 hours of operation (WhooHoo!). It also
> > carries this warning:
> > > >
> > > > Danger!
> > > > This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden
> > stoppage! Engine
> > > stoppage
> > > > can result in crash landings. Such crash
> > landings can lead to serious
> > > > bodily injury or death.
> > > > Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine
> > at locations, airspeeds,
> > > > altitudes or other circumstances from which a
> > successful no-power landing
> > > > canot be made, after sudden engine stoppage.
> > Aircraft equipped with this
> > > > engine should only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR
> > conditions.
> > > > Sort of makes you want to rush right out and
> > plunk down $10K just to hear
> > > > that Banshee whine, doesn't it? No thanks, I'll
> > stick with my
> > > Continental,
> > > > with its lovely sound and 1500 hour time between
> > overhauls.
> > > >
> > > > Jack
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Covering Materials |
Pieters,
A long time ago when I was beginning this Piet project I asked this net for
advise on necessary materials to include wood, steel, aluminum, and covering
materials. I will now say that the response was more than inadequate. I would
frequently throw it back trying to figure the costs etc. Well, for what it
may be worth to some ole Piet builder out there just beginning, I am listing
all the materials I found necessary to cover and paint my Piet. I used the
Poly system throughout. For an old style plane the Poly Tone looks OK. I'm
such a dude and modern cat that I really like the wet shinny look but I can
live with the other. I'm omitting any prices as I can't believe I spent that
much money on a few gallons of paint. Depressing a'int it.
NX41CC
Materials for covering to include 3 coats each of Brush, Spray and Tone
. Practice kit from ASS
40 yds 2.7 oz Dacron 72 in wide
1 roll rib stitch cord
2 rolls reinforcing tape
2 rolls 2 in pinked tape
1 roll 3 in pinked tape bias
1 roll 4 in pinked tape
4 Gal Poly Brush
2 Gal Poly Spray
2 Gal Poly Tone Yellow for Wings and Feathers
1 Gal Poly Tone for Fuse
3 Gal Reducers (65-75)(8500)(8600)
2 Qts Poly Tak
All other acrylics and materials bought locally
I hope this little missal may be of some benefit to someone. I know I would
have liked this info earlier. However, let me say in all honestly that as I
progressed I would just call the 800 number, tell them what I needed, give
them my credit card number, use the materials when they arrived. If you keep
too much of a count on the cost I assure you that you could take the pleasure
out of your hobby.
From the south on a beautiful Sat nite with a tall glass of mint julip and my
beautiful bride beside me, nothing could be better except a flight in a Piet.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Trainer" <dtrain(at)ptd.net> |
| Subject: | Any Air Campers in Central PA? |
Malcolm,
I was told that there is one hangared at the Danville airport in central
Pa. I haven't seen it but hope to get out there sometime this summer. I'm
in eastern Pennsylvania.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Any Air Campers in Central PA?
Go to Paul Dockerty's Golden Age Air Museum at Grimes Airport just north of
Harrisburg. He has a Model A Piet and you could probably get a ride. He is
having a Fly-in on July 6-7, but I won't be able to make it this year.
----- Original Message -----
From: morrisons5 <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Any Air Campers in Central PA?
>
> Hi all
> I,ve been thinking about building a Pietentol for quite a while, but I
> have never flown in one. I would really like to see how they fly before
> I start making saw dust. Are there any Piet owners out there in central
> PA that I could talk into getting a ride from? My weight, 190 lbs.
>
> Thanks
> Malcolm Morrison
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | catdesigns(at)juno.com |
Did any one else run into the problem where the rear pulley mounting tabs
if built to the plans are to close together? If built to the plans the
tabs are 7/8ths inch apart and the two 2-inch pulleys I purchased are 1/2
inch wide each. This means I needed a full inch between the tabs.
Fortunately I caught this before I welded them on and I put a little bend
in each to get the extra 1/8th inch needed.
The pulleys I used are 2-inch diameter with sealed bearings. Are these
the wrong type?
Chris
Sacramento, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Covering Materials |
Hi Corky,
Thanks for the information. I'm just to the point now of needing to order
all the covering supplies and your list should help a lot. I'm like you and
prefer the shinier look of Aerothane to PolyTone. I guess pretty soon I'm
going to have to actually make a decision which one to go with. Did you get
all your materials from ASS? I want to use the lighter 1.7 oz fabric, but
ASS only sells it in 60" widths. Barry Jay advertises it in 70" widths, so
I will probably order it from him - I'll talk with them at OSH in a few
weeks.
What colors are you using? Mine will be Forest Green fuselage and vertical
tail, with Diana Cream wings and horizontal tail.
Jack in North Carolina
Building up my engine this week - all structure complete except for the
engine mount
-----Original Message-----
Pieters,
A long time ago when I was beginning this Piet project I asked this net for
advise on necessary materials to include wood, steel, aluminum, and covering
materials. I will now say that the response was more than inadequate. I
would
frequently throw it back trying to figure the costs etc. Well, for what it
may be worth to some ole Piet builder out there just beginning, I am listing
all the materials I found necessary to cover and paint my Piet. I used the
Poly system throughout. For an old style plane the Poly Tone looks OK. I'm
such a dude and modern cat that I really like the wet shinny look but I can
live with the other. I'm omitting any prices as I can't believe I spent that
much money on a few gallons of paint. Depressing a'int it.
NX41CC
Materials for covering to include 3 coats each of Brush, Spray and Tone
. Practice kit from ASS
40 yds 2.7 oz Dacron 72 in wide
1 roll rib stitch cord
2 rolls reinforcing tape
2 rolls 2 in pinked tape
1 roll 3 in pinked tape bias
1 roll 4 in pinked tape
4 Gal Poly Brush
2 Gal Poly Spray
2 Gal Poly Tone Yellow for Wings and Feathers
1 Gal Poly Tone for Fuse
3 Gal Reducers (65-75)(8500)(8600)
2 Qts Poly Tak
All other acrylics and materials bought locally
I hope this little missal may be of some benefit to someone. I know I would
have liked this info earlier. However, let me say in all honestly that as I
progressed I would just call the 800 number, tell them what I needed, give
them my credit card number, use the materials when they arrived. If you keep
too much of a count on the cost I assure you that you could take the
pleasure
out of your hobby.
From the south on a beautiful Sat nite with a tall glass of mint julip and
my
beautiful bride beside me, nothing could be better except a flight in a
Piet.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Covering Materials |
Jack,
It's hard not to get in a hurry at this point. Slow down and enjoy the
finishing up.
I got my cloth and tapes from Superflite.com. I used 2.7 oz. 72 inch as I
could get it for $ 3.25 per yard and I'm glad I used the heavier cloth. A
little over 2 # for the entire plane compared to 1.7. I bought my Poly stuff
from Wicks by the qts to save a little on the UPS hazard charge. It's still a
big rip off. Colors are yellow wings and feathers, blue fuse, w/ red and
white striped rudder. Old Air Corps thirties colors with the big white stars
on the wings
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Horse Power? was Fuel economy? |
Theoretically, you could move the whole world if you had a long enough
lever, or had a Briggs and Stratton engine geared down low enough.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
****
I just cant imagine any 1 hp (or 5HP) Briggs and
Straton engine (with a propulsion wheel of course)
that could even MOVE the carriage by itself!!!
*****
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
The compairison of specific fuel consumption that Jack made is correct. And
it is true that newer engine designs provide effeciencies due to more
effecient combustion chamber design, better bearings, and better fuel
management. Although the compairisons are misleading when it comes to
aircraft performance in the fact that it requires an exponentially
increasing amount of horsepower to move a thing faster through the air. We
all know that 80 HP does not move an aircraft twice as fast as 40 HP
(although it climbs a hell of a lot better).
The other misleading item is the HP rating of an engine and the actual
output and/or torque at your chosen RPM. There is quite a bit that could be
written here but its basically all about cubic inches. A Model A engine,
which is rated for 40 horses is 200 cubic inches. It's a huge engine for
only 40 HP and to a large part, that is why it's a "high torque" engine. If
it had a different intake system and the timing of the spark and valves were
optomized for a higher RPM, it would deliver like traditional 200 CI
engines, although structurally it's not capable of withstanding the output
the 200 CI could deliver. What I mean to say here is that its possible to
rate this engine at 80 HP, with intake modifications, but only every run it
at 30 HP... at 4 GPH. Then we would all be referencing this 80 HP engine
with a 4 GPH burn. Jack Phillips was aware of this when he stated the
specific fuel consuptions, he used output numbers, not engine ratings.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Covering Materials |
Jack,
I used the 1.8oz fabric in AS&S p/n 09-00100 pg 277 ( the catalog with the
P51 on the front) Assuming my wing is the same width as yours, the fabric
just makes the top of the wing with the legal 1" wrap , and the bottom needs
to be trimmed.
It seems to be good looking stuff. And we've all heard the story that all
dacron is made on the same machine. Don't know if it's true or not.
Are your wings ready to cover? If so I have some of this fabric left over.
If you want to try it on the wing for size, I can send you a piece.
walt
NX140DL
still putting together
Blue fuse and Diana cream wing and tail
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Covering Materials
>
>
> Hi Corky,
>
> Thanks for the information. I'm just to the point now of needing to order
> all the covering supplies and your list should help a lot. I'm like you
and
> prefer the shinier look of Aerothane to PolyTone. I guess pretty soon I'm
> going to have to actually make a decision which one to go with. Did you
get
> all your materials from ASS? I want to use the lighter 1.7 oz fabric, but
> ASS only sells it in 60" widths. Barry Jay advertises it in 70" widths,
so
> I will probably order it from him - I'll talk with them at OSH in a few
> weeks.
>
> What colors are you using? Mine will be Forest Green fuselage and
vertical
> tail, with Diana Cream wings and horizontal tail.
>
> Jack in North Carolina
>
> Building up my engine this week - all structure complete except for the
> engine mount
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Pieters,
> A long time ago when I was beginning this Piet project I asked this net
for
> advise on necessary materials to include wood, steel, aluminum, and
covering
> materials. I will now say that the response was more than inadequate. I
> would
> frequently throw it back trying to figure the costs etc. Well, for what it
> may be worth to some ole Piet builder out there just beginning, I am
listing
> all the materials I found necessary to cover and paint my Piet. I used the
> Poly system throughout. For an old style plane the Poly Tone looks OK. I'm
> such a dude and modern cat that I really like the wet shinny look but I
can
> live with the other. I'm omitting any prices as I can't believe I spent
that
> much money on a few gallons of paint. Depressing a'int it.
>
> NX41CC
>
> Materials for covering to include 3 coats each of Brush, Spray and Tone
>
> . Practice kit from ASS
> 40 yds 2.7 oz Dacron 72 in wide
> 1 roll rib stitch cord
> 2 rolls reinforcing tape
> 2 rolls 2 in pinked tape
> 1 roll 3 in pinked tape bias
> 1 roll 4 in pinked tape
> 4 Gal Poly Brush
> 2 Gal Poly Spray
> 2 Gal Poly Tone Yellow for Wings and Feathers
> 1 Gal Poly Tone for Fuse
> 3 Gal Reducers (65-75)(8500)(8600)
> 2 Qts Poly Tak
> All other acrylics and materials bought locally
>
> I hope this little missal may be of some benefit to someone. I know I
would
> have liked this info earlier. However, let me say in all honestly that as
I
> progressed I would just call the 800 number, tell them what I needed, give
> them my credit card number, use the materials when they arrived. If you
keep
> too much of a count on the cost I assure you that you could take the
> pleasure
> out of your hobby.
> From the south on a beautiful Sat nite with a tall glass of mint julip and
> my
> beautiful bride beside me, nothing could be better except a flight in a
> Piet.
> Corky in La
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Birth Announcement |
Pieters:
Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
announced at a later date.
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
Great news!
What was the weight?
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)email.msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
Hey John,
Good deal!! Glad to hear all is well. Glad you were able to get your
medical as well so YOU can enjoy it. If you need assitance posting pics, let
me know.
Doug Blackburn
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
ArrowBear Lake Ca.
Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Wilcox" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
John -
Congratulations! You have acheived a lifetime goal which many others simply
dream of.
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: John Dilatush <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
Walt,
Thanks for your message, the empty weight is right at 800 lbs. So far, (at
9200 feet) the engine is turning 4800 rpm (prop reduction is 2.35 to 1.00)
and can pull 45 inches of manifold pressure. The rate of climb appears to
exceed 1000 fpm and the angle of climb is awesome!
John NX114D
++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Great news!
> What was the weight?
> walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
>
> >
> > Pieters:
> >
> > Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> > healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
> >
> > The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> > attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> > with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> > announced at a later date.
> >
> > John Dilatush, NX114D
> > Salida, Colorado
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
----- Original Message -----
From: "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
Doug,
Thanks for your offer, may take you up on it a little later.
John, NX114D
>
> Hey John,
> Good deal!! Glad to hear all is well. Glad you were able to get your
> medical as well so YOU can enjoy it. If you need assitance posting pics,
let
> me know.
>
> Doug Blackburn
>
> Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
> ArrowBear Lake Ca.
> Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
>
> >
> > Pieters:
> >
> > Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> > healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
> >
> > The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> > attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> > with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> > announced at a later date.
> >
> > John Dilatush, NX114D
> > Salida, Colorado
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Butcher" <rbutch(at)inreach.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Control tube |
Chris...
Can you take a quick picture and send it to me? I can't quite see it in my
mind.
Ron Turlock
----- Original Message -----
From: <catdesigns(at)juno.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control tube
>
> Did any one else run into the problem where the rear pulley mounting tabs
> if built to the plans are to close together? If built to the plans the
> tabs are 7/8ths inch apart and the two 2-inch pulleys I purchased are 1/2
> inch wide each. This means I needed a full inch between the tabs.
> Fortunately I caught this before I welded them on and I put a little bend
> in each to get the extra 1/8th inch needed.
>
> The pulleys I used are 2-inch diameter with sealed bearings. Are these
> the wrong type?
>
> Chris
> Sacramento, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Horse Power? was Fuel economy? |
Speaking of Briggs and Straton, check out Le Pelican
on www.vula.org., powered by an 18 hp B+S.
I wonder if you could join two of these together
and get A performance????( Fish, where are you?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Horse Power? was Fuel economy?
>
> Theoretically, you could move the whole world if you had a long enough
> lever, or had a Briggs and Stratton engine geared down low enough.
>
> Robert Haines
> Du Quoin, Illinois
>
>
> ****
> I just cant imagine any 1 hp (or 5HP) Briggs and
> Straton engine (with a propulsion wheel of course)
> that could even MOVE the carriage by itself!!!
> *****
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Horse Power? was Fuel economy? |
I remember reading somewhere that the motor used to drive the 40 ton 200
inch telescope at Mt. Palomar was a 1/12th horsepower electric motor geared
way down. Of course the bearings supporting the telescope were above
average in quality.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Haines
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Horse Power? was Fuel economy?
Theoretically, you could move the whole world if you had a long enough
lever, or had a Briggs and Stratton engine geared down low enough.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
****
I just cant imagine any 1 hp (or 5HP) Briggs and
Straton engine (with a propulsion wheel of course)
that could even MOVE the carriage by itself!!!
*****
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
Congratulations John...That's got to be a great feeling! What engine set
up are you using??? Sounds like you've got plenty of power!!!
Ed G.
>From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:00:17 -0600
>
>
>Pieters:
>
>Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
>healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
>The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
>attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
>with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
>announced at a later date.
>
>John Dilatush, NX114D
>Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Chris,
I'm using 2" pulleys with plain bronze bushings. They're a bit thinner and
I'm not expecting enough control force or flight time for wear to be a
consideration. But it sounds like you have a good solution, so yours
certainly aren't the "wrong" type.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks for your congratulations, It is a good feeling to finally have the
Piet in the air.
Since I live at over 7,000 feet of elevation, I elected to use an EA82
Turbocharged Subaru engine and am running the prop through a 2.35 to 1.00
reduction unit. This rig produces 111 hp in the car at 4800 rpm here in the
states and 135 hp in Japan at 5500 rpm. Because I made a manual wastegate
control rather than using the automatic one used in the car, I can run the
manifold pressure up to produce the same hp here as at sea level.
John, NX114D
Salida, CO
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> Congratulations John...That's got to be a great feeling! What engine set
> up are you using??? Sounds like you've got plenty of power!!!
>
> Ed G.
> >From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
> >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:00:17 -0600
> >
> >
> >Pieters:
> >
> >Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> >healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
> >
> >The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> >attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> >with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> >announced at a later date.
> >
> >John Dilatush, NX114D
> >Salida, Colorado
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Horse Power? was Fuel economy? |
>
>
>I remember reading somewhere that the motor used to drive the 40 ton 200
>inch telescope at Mt. Palomar was a 1/12th horsepower electric motor geared
>way down. Of course the bearings supporting the telescope were above
>average in quality.
>
>Jack
Also, the Palomar telescope is almost perfectly balanced, so the motor is
not pushing (or pulling) against those 40 tons, so to speak. Sort of like
the counter-weight on a vertical drawbridge, the balance of masses allows
the use of very low power. No way to apply that to an airplane,
unfortunately.
Kip Gardner (who's been in the building doldrums of late, aground on the
'honeydo reef'!)
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
John,
I'll keep an eye out for ya next time we go thru the area on our semi-annual
camping trips -- we always seem to be going thru Salida on the way to
Leadville, Ouray, or the Sand Dunes!! I guess everyone in KS goes camping
in CO!!
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE Control tube |
| From: | catdesigns(at)juno.com |
Ron asked:
Can you take a quick picture and send it to me? I can't quite see
it in my mind.
My digital camera no longer works for some reason. If you can wait until
my photos get developed I will scan and send you some pictures.
Try this in the mean time.
Take a look at the 1934 plans Drawing No. 4. Look at the Control Stick
Details (in the upper left corner). Now look at the drawing labeled Rear
View of Rear Torque Tube Bearing. See the arrow pointing to the 5/8"
13ga steel pulley housing? One of these gets welded onto each side of
the 7/8" torque tube thus giving you a distance of 7/8th of an inch
between the pulley housing tabs. (you can see how they are welded on in
the drawing Side View of Control System, look at the rear most pulleys.
They are welded onto the side). My problem was that I ordered 2 inch
pulleys, MS24566-3B (page 139 in AC&S 2001 catalog) they turned out to be
0.484 inches wide (each). This meant I needed 1 inch instead of 7/8ths
inch between the pulley housing tabs. I ended up putting a "S" bend in
both tabs before I welded them on. This gave me the extra 1/8th inch I
needed. I also bent the tabs around the torque tube a little to give me
more welding surface. More work but I feel better about the strength of
my weld this way. I'll send you a picture when I get them developed and
this will all make sense.
Chris
Sacramento, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 07/02/02 |
Hi gang:
Looks like I could be in Pheonix in Nov. Are there any Piets in the
works or flying in the area? You can email me direct. Thanks, Ryder Olsen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Birth Announcement |
Way to go, John!
Hopefully in a little over a year I will be in the same situation.
"Blunder Engineering", huh? I like that.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Dilatush
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks for your congratulations, It is a good feeling to finally have the
Piet in the air.
Since I live at over 7,000 feet of elevation, I elected to use an EA82
Turbocharged Subaru engine and am running the prop through a 2.35 to 1.00
reduction unit. This rig produces 111 hp in the car at 4800 rpm here in the
states and 135 hp in Japan at 5500 rpm. Because I made a manual wastegate
control rather than using the automatic one used in the car, I can run the
manifold pressure up to produce the same hp here as at sea level.
John, NX114D
Salida, CO
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> Congratulations John...That's got to be a great feeling! What engine set
> up are you using??? Sounds like you've got plenty of power!!!
>
> Ed G.
> >From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
> >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:00:17 -0600
> >
> >
> >Pieters:
> >
> >Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> >healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
> >
> >The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> >attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> >with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> >announced at a later date.
> >
> >John Dilatush, NX114D
> >Salida, Colorado
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
This is primarily addressed to the new father, John D out in Colorado.
John, I am getting close to calling the Fedman for my inspection. It would be
very helpful to me and I suppose many others if you would find a few minutes
when not flying that new Piet to make a check list of all the documents,
certificates, paperwork and any other annoyances which he would expect us to
have. I know it's all listed in many publications but it would be nice if it
were manifested in a short paragraph from you. Thanking you in advance for
this service and adding my congrats I remain
In La, Corky and his bride Isabelle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
Hi John:
Congratulations on the great event; what are you going to do for an encore?
Will we be seeing you at Brodhead this year?
I know you did a lot of engineering, design work and some pretty fancy
machining not to mennion the airplane building; it has to be a work of art.
I'd certainly like to see it.
Congatulations again.
I can visualize you doing turns about a point over Mt. Tenderfoot.
Regards,
Lou Larsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dennis Engelkenjohn <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
Does anyone know if Duane Tulba still has Mr.Pietenpols' fiberglas
cowling mold and if so, how much does he charge for a cowl and how can
I contact him?
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
Oops, Forgot about the 40 hours of local time.
Make that Brodhead 2003.
Lou
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Check list
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Corky, and your bride too,
Thanks for your congratulations, I appreciate it.
In our area the FAA refuses to do inspections, even though the required
inspection is their own regulation! They claim not to have either the money
or time and refer you to a "DAR" or designated airworthiness representative.
The DAR's that have been appointed in this area are scarce, I understand
that there are only about eight. Of the eight only a couple will certify a
homebuilt. The rest seem to only be interested in working for a single
manufacturer or just on big certified iron. I called the two that claimed
to certify homebuilts and of the two, the first when he found out that I had
not built from a kit using a certified engine refused to do it. He didn't
even know what a Pietenpol was!
The last hope turned out to be a guy that is an old timer in aviation and
understood odd engines, dope and fabric, etc. and had build a couple of
planes himself. The only drawback to this guy was that he charged $500.00
to come here and do the job!! Makes you want to write your congressman
doesn't it?
This guy actually turned out to be a reasonable human being. Accepted the
fact that I had actually built the plane to comply with the 51% rule when I
shoved a bunch of photos and receipts at him. Only cared that I had the
registration card and then he filled out all the forms including the
affirmation that I was qualified for a Repairman's Certificate. He looked
the plane over very carefully, made a couple of suggestions, filled out a
bitch sheet, (needed to have more cockpit instrument markings, cable
touching a bolt head etc.) and then asked me what test area that I wanted.
I asked for one from Salida to Brodhead but he good naturedly refused,
however he did give me one from Leadville to Alamosa which is almost 150
miles long and 25 miles wide. I asked that he not put a restriction on the
airworthiness certificate that would prohibit glider towing and he agreed to
this, after checking my calculations.. Don't ask me about this grand
scheme, we will go into it later.
When this was all done and I had the precious Airworthiness Certificate we
went to lunch and swapped lies. I paid the bill, now the whole damn'd thing
cost me $523.00!
We talked about the FAA and it seems that each office has it's own policies
about inspections, and all inspectors both FAA and DAR's interpret the
regulations in their own way. Some inspectors know nothing about airplanes,
but sure know the regulations and others are more practical as this guy was.
I would suggest that you get in touch with whoever will do the inspection
and get a feel for what he is going to need and will look for. I can only
give you my own experience and wish you well.
Please let me know how it turns out
Cordially,
John, Salida Colorado
>
> This is primarily addressed to the new father, John D out in Colorado.
> John, I am getting close to calling the Fedman for my inspection. It would
be
> very helpful to me and I suppose many others if you would find a few
minutes
> when not flying that new Piet to make a check list of all the documents,
> certificates, paperwork and any other annoyances which he would expect us
to
> have. I know it's all listed in many publications but it would be nice if
it
> were manifested in a short paragraph from you. Thanking you in advance for
> this service and adding my congrats I remain
> In La, Corky and his bride Isabelle
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lou,
I appreciate your E-mail. No chance of making Brodhead this year, unless I
cooked the logbook and I don't want to do this. The first guy that flew the
plane is a good friend who has been an experimental test pilot for more than
30 years and he has laid out a comprehensive test program to objectively
develop the numbers. This will probably take most of the required 40 hours
anyway.
Brodhead in 2003 is a possibility if I don't sell the plane first.
Cordially,
John, Salida CO
>
> Oops, Forgot about the 40 hours of local time.
>
> Make that Brodhead 2003.
>
> Lou
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
>
> >
> > Pieters:
> >
> > Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> > healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
> >
> > The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> > attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> > with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> > announced at a later date.
> >
> > John Dilatush, NX114D
> > Salida, Colorado
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Thanks for the reply John. My Fedman in Baton Rouge has agreed to inspect my
plane when completed. However, he wanted to give it a naked inspection but
couldn't drive to Shreveport ( 250 miles ) because of shortage of funds. I
hope they get a few bucks pretty soon. Since my last letter to you I have
accumulated all the paperwork I think he will want. Might see you in Brodhead
in '03.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Lou,
>
>I appreciate your E-mail. No chance of making Brodhead this year, unless I
>cooked the logbook and I don't want to do this. The first guy that flew the
>plane is a good friend who has been an experimental test pilot for more than
>30 years and he has laid out a comprehensive test program to objectively
>develop the numbers. This will probably take most of the required 40 hours
>anyway.
>
>Brodhead in 2003 is a possibility if I don't sell the plane first.
>
>Cordially,
>John, Salida CO
John,
I'll throw in my belated congratulations as well. It's good to know
somebody finishes these things! I haven't been in the workshop more that 20
minutes in the last 6 weeks, too much outdoors stuff to get done in the
short OH summer (well, short compared to SE Virginia where I moved from).
However, I'm having last minute thoughts of a quick dash to Brodhead (my
new boss is very easy-going about taking time off, a nice change after the
last A****** I worked for, and my CFI is heading for Oshkosh after
overseeing the Taylorcraft Fly-In, so I won't be getting much instruction
in the next few weeks either).
Have fun on your test program.
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
>John,
>
>last A****** I worked for, and my CFI is heading for Oshkosh after
>overseeing the Taylorcraft Fly-In, so I won't be getting much instruction
>in the next few weeks either).
>
Kip,
Your CFI must be Forrest. If you get over to the TCart fly in on Saturday
say hi. Ben (13 year old) and I will be heading in between 9 and 10 am. I
have a white and dark green '41 - N36078.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
>John,
>
>last A****** I worked for, and my CFI is heading for Oshkosh after
>overseeing the Taylorcraft Fly-In, so I won't be getting much instruction
>in the next few weeks either).
>
Kip,
Your CFI must be Forrest. If you get over to the TCart fly in on Saturday
say hi. Ben (13 year old) and I will be heading in between 9 and 10 am. I
have a white and dark green '41 - N36078.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
test
ewl&.begin1&.ord
walt
NX140DL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: walter evans
Subject: Re:
----- Original Message -----
From: walter evans
To: walter evans
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 7:31 PM
test
gin1&.ord
walt
NX140DL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! |
Dear Listers,
I've just added four new email Lists to the current lineup at
Matronics. These new lists include:
KRNet:
krnet-List(at)matronics.com The RANS KR1 and KR2 Series
Cub:
cub-List(at)matronics.com The Piper J-3 Cub
RV10:
rv10-List(at)matronics.com The New 4-place RV from Van's!
Europa:
europa(at)matronics.com The Slick European Composite
All the usual features are available with the new Lists including the
search engine, archive download, 7-day List browse, and PhotoShare!
To sign up for any or all of the new lists, please go to the List
Subscription page and put in your email address and select the Lists of
your choice. The URL for the Subscription page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscibe
Don't forget that its your posts that generate traffic on the respective
Lists! Post an introduction and a description of your project or dreams!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [With Good URL This Time!] Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! |
[Typo in the subscribe page URL last time - SORRY! -Matt]
Dear Listers,
I've just added four new email Lists to the current lineup at
Matronics. These new lists include:
KRNet:
krnet-List(at)matronics.com The RANS KR1 and KR2 Series
Cub:
cub-List(at)matronics.com The Piper J-3 Cub
RV10:
rv10-List(at)matronics.com The New 4-place RV from Van's!
Europa:
europa(at)matronics.com The Slick European Composite
All the usual features are available with the new Lists including the
search engine, archive download, 7-day List browse, and PhotoShare!
To sign up for any or all of the new lists, please go to the List
Subscription page and put in your email address and select the Lists of
your choice. The URL for the Subscription page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Don't forget that its your posts that generate traffic on the respective
Lists! Post an introduction and a description of your project or dreams!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shawn Wolk" <shawnwolk(at)sprint.ca> |
Hello Group,
My name is Shawn Wolk in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and am the new
owner & flyer of C-FRAZ (originally CF-AUK). A 1932 built Pietenpol with
a steel tube fuselage, a 1929 monocoupe tail, 31foot wing, and (since
1965) an A-65 Continental. I've put seven hours on it and like its
manners. It has a cutdown J-3 fuselage tank and only holds 9.66 US
gallons. This makes flight planning real tough. (I've seen ground speeds
as low as 38 MPH) The Piet used to have a wing tank but it started to
leak apparently in 1970 and it was removed. I am contemplating building
one, but figured I would ask;
If there are any production tanks that may be available new or used from
other certified or homebuilt designs that fit? Or anyone have one they
want to be rid of?
How much fuel do most of you other Piet flyers carry with you?
I recovered the tail of this plane when I first got it. Used the
HIPEC system and found it nice to work with. The wing and fuselage are
still covered in cotton. I am planning to recover the wing this winter.
One thing that I am not a big fan of is that the wing struts are
non-adjustable. I have noticed that the right wing is a bit heavy, so a
little left stick is required in level flight. And there is negligible
wash on the left side of the wing as compared to the rightside. The rear
struts could have an adjustible fork end like a J-3 or PA-11 to make
dialing in wash easier. Since the plane has been around so long, I have
assumed that at some point in its life it was probably correct. But over
70 years it warped a bit.
With the new rules in the US, I have no desire to attempt to fly to
your annual event in Broadhead (and with so little fuel onboard, flight
planning is extremely difficult). But I might drive down. Is there a
website or add refering to dates, events, and recommended hotel/motel
info. I know its a week before Oskkosh but thats about it.
For you first flight people out there, here's my story. After
reassembling the aircraft and inspecting it 3-4 times prop to tail (plus
plenty of helpers/experts) it was ready for flight. After about a 1/2
hour of taxi practice, I waited until the wind was right up the runway,
about 8-10 kts. Gave her full throttle and with neutral elevator the
tail came up quickly. Kept her nice and straight then glanced for moment
at the ASI. At that moment (it read 65mph) I realized that it was
already flying.
Flew a couple circuits and made two of the best landings with it.
(haven't quite greased it on as nice as on the first flight since) I
suspect that smoke was coming out of my ears from the concentration.
Anyway it went well and now I'm quite happy with it.
Shawn Wolk
C-FRAZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
in regards to the wing tank.... my GN-1 Aircamper plans say that a
Taylorcraft wing tank can be used in the center section as an aux tank. The
GN-1 center section is not very different from the Pietenpol Air Camper.
The GN-1 spars are placed closer together, thats about it.
I'd say try to get your hands on a T-craft tank and run a measuring stick to
it to confirm. It'd give you about an extra 6 gallons.
DJ Vegh
Mesa, AZ
GN-1/Piet hybrid
www.raptoronline.com <http://www.raptoronline.com>
N74DV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Shawn
Wolk
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Owner
Hello Group,
My name is Shawn Wolk in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and am the new
owner & flyer of C-FRAZ (originally CF-AUK). A 1932 built Pietenpol with
a steel tube fuselage, a 1929 monocoupe tail, 31foot wing, and (since
1965) an A-65 Continental. I've put seven hours on it and like its
manners. It has a cutdown J-3 fuselage tank and only holds 9.66 US
gallons. This makes flight planning real tough. (I've seen ground speeds
as low as 38 MPH) The Piet used to have a wing tank but it started to
leak apparently in 1970 and it was removed. I am contemplating building
one, but figured I would ask;
If there are any production tanks that may be available new or used from
other certified or homebuilt designs that fit? Or anyone have one they
want to be rid of?
How much fuel do most of you other Piet flyers carry with you?
I recovered the tail of this plane when I first got it. Used the
HIPEC system and found it nice to work with. The wing and fuselage are
still covered in cotton. I am planning to recover the wing this winter.
One thing that I am not a big fan of is that the wing struts are
non-adjustable. I have noticed that the right wing is a bit heavy, so a
little left stick is required in level flight. And there is negligible
wash on the left side of the wing as compared to the rightside. The rear
struts could have an adjustible fork end like a J-3 or PA-11 to make
dialing in wash easier. Since the plane has been around so long, I have
assumed that at some point in its life it was probably correct. But over
70 years it warped a bit.
With the new rules in the US, I have no desire to attempt to fly to
your annual event in Broadhead (and with so little fuel onboard, flight
planning is extremely difficult). But I might drive down. Is there a
website or add refering to dates, events, and recommended hotel/motel
info. I know its a week before Oskkosh but thats about it.
For you first flight people out there, here's my story. After
reassembling the aircraft and inspecting it 3-4 times prop to tail (plus
plenty of helpers/experts) it was ready for flight. After about a 1/2
hour of taxi practice, I waited until the wind was right up the runway,
about 8-10 kts. Gave her full throttle and with neutral elevator the
tail came up quickly. Kept her nice and straight then glanced for moment
at the ASI. At that moment (it read 65mph) I realized that it was
already flying.
Flew a couple circuits and made two of the best landings with it.
(haven't quite greased it on as nice as on the first flight since) I
suspect that smoke was coming out of my ears from the concentration.
Anyway it went well and now I'm quite happy with it.
Shawn Wolk
C-FRAZ
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Doug Blackburn ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Doug Blackburn
Subject: John Dilatush Piet Pics
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/TWINBOOM@email.msn.com.07.07.2002/index.html
--------------------------------------------
o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
emailing the files to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text
Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
o Main Photo Share Index:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet templates and tac weld fixtures |
Gents,
I am going to slow down some on the building side of things and as a result
will pass along my set of templates and tac weld fixtures to anyone who will
put them to use. This is a good set of wooden tooling for just about the
entire airplane.
Thanks,
Doug Bryant
Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
| Subject: | Birth Announcement |
Congats John. I was in Creede, CO all of last week with some friends from
Kansas. Wish I had looked you up. We spent Thursday at the Creede 4th of
July parade (what a small town hoot that was, kids loved it!) then went to
the Sand Dunes. Maybe next year we can find you.
Again, sounds great and want to see more pics.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
> Dilatush
> Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 7:00 PM
> To: Pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
>
>
> Pieters:
>
> Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
>
> The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> announced at a later date.
>
> John Dilatush, NX114D
> Salida, Colorado
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> |
| Subject: | Piet templates and tac weld fixtures |
Doug,
I'll take them off your hands for you. I have been thinking of starting to
build some jigs for the metal stuff anyways. Let me know what you want for
them. I have some vacation time left, it would take a couple hour drive to
see you, and all the other Piet builders in Wichita!
Kent Hallsten
Oklahoma City
Hoping to get a Corvair engine this week !!
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug413(at)aol.com [mailto:Doug413(at)aol.com]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures
Gents,
I am going to slow down some on the building side of things and as a result
will pass along my set of templates and tac weld fixtures to anyone who will
put them to use. This is a good set of wooden tooling for just about the
entire airplane.
Thanks,
Doug Bryant
Wichita Ks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet templates and tac weld fixtures |
Kent,
You can have the set. Use it and then pass it along to some one else.
Doug Bryant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures |
Gee, Kent!
You might need a hand loading up all of Doug's fixtures! ;-) -- (unless you
come up the weekend of the 20th & I'll be up at Brodhead!!!) Guess we could
talk Piets if we get done too fast!!
Mike C. (charter member of the Pietenpol Procrastinators Group!;-)
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)governair.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures
>
> Doug,
>
> I'll take them off your hands for you. I have been thinking of starting
to
> build some jigs for the metal stuff anyways. Let me know what you want
for
> them. I have some vacation time left, it would take a couple hour drive
to
> see you, and all the other Piet builders in Wichita!
>
> Kent Hallsten
> Oklahoma City
> Hoping to get a Corvair engine this week !!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug413(at)aol.com [mailto:Doug413(at)aol.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures
>
>
> Gents,
>
> I am going to slow down some on the building side of things and as a
result
> will pass along my set of templates and tac weld fixtures to anyone who
will
>
> put them to use. This is a good set of wooden tooling for just about the
> entire airplane.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug Bryant
> Wichita Ks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures |
Gee, Kent!
You might need a hand loading up all of Doug's fixtures! ;-) -- (unless you
come up the weekend of the 20th & I'll be up at Brodhead!!!) Guess we could
talk Piets if we get done too fast!!
Mike C. (charter member of the Pietenpol Procrastinators Group!;-)
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)governair.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures
>
> Doug,
>
> I'll take them off your hands for you. I have been thinking of starting
to
> build some jigs for the metal stuff anyways. Let me know what you want
for
> them. I have some vacation time left, it would take a couple hour drive
to
> see you, and all the other Piet builders in Wichita!
>
> Kent Hallsten
> Oklahoma City
> Hoping to get a Corvair engine this week !!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug413(at)aol.com [mailto:Doug413(at)aol.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet templates and tac weld fixtures
>
>
> Gents,
>
> I am going to slow down some on the building side of things and as a
result
> will pass along my set of templates and tac weld fixtures to anyone who
will
>
> put them to use. This is a good set of wooden tooling for just about the
> entire airplane.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug Bryant
> Wichita Ks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Birth Announcement |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gary,
Sorry that you couldn't make it, would enjoyed talking with you and your
family. Maybe next year?
John
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Congats John. I was in Creede, CO all of last week with some friends from
> Kansas. Wish I had looked you up. We spent Thursday at the Creede 4th of
> July parade (what a small town hoot that was, kids loved it!) then went to
> the Sand Dunes. Maybe next year we can find you.
>
> Again, sounds great and want to see more pics.
>
> -Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
> > Dilatush
> > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 7:00 PM
> > To: Pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birth Announcement
> >
> >
> >
> > Pieters:
> >
> > Blunder Engineering Co. is pleased to announce the birth of a alert and
> > healthy Pietenpol Air Camper.
> >
> > The newborn was delivered to the air at 8:22 AM July 1, 2002. The
> > attending test pilot pronounced the newest Piet to be easy to control
> > with outstanding performance. Exact performance figures will be
> > announced at a later date.
> >
> > John Dilatush, NX114D
> > Salida, Colorado
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Waytogopiet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Back in the fold |
Hi Listers , back with you after a computer and address change. I have two
queries I hope will bring some help. 1) Does anyone know if Bill Sayres is
still on the list, has his bird flying, or has his e-mail address. Attempts
at his old Boeing URL were kicked back unknown.
2)My stock 'A' water pump holds its own under ideal conditions (on the test
stand) but on hot days it does not cool well at low RPMs. Wouldn't want this
to happen waiting in line to depart a fly-in or show so I am entertaining the
thought of changiong to a side mounted washing machine pump. Past discussions
and a visit to the archives seem to favor the old all metal Speed Queen #
23907. One very good reason was that Jack Mckinney managed to get over the
big stuff and high desert from Arizona to Brodhead (and I hope back as well
!) with just such a pump. Sooo, if anyone might have one :) or provide a
source or have had good performance with another brand, I would welcome your
response. Have heard the Model T pump will fit the 'A' but the cost is
pretty steep @ $165 from Snyder's. Good to be back and TIA for any help.
Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Dennis,
Per Doc Mosher's book and Anywho:
Dwayne D Tulba
727 N Broad St
Griffith IN 46319
219 924-9021
Mine were like $125.00 4 or 5 years ago.
Dwayne usually comes to Brodhead.
Don't know if he still has them or will make cowlings.
Skip, getting ready to leave for Brodhead a week from today!!!
Does anyone know if Duane Tulba still has Mr.Pietenpols' fiberglas
cowling mold and if so, how much does he charge for a cowl and how can
I contact him?
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
Hey group I ordered a mechanical
"oil Temp." gauge from ACS. They sent me a generic gauge that just says
"temperature" on it. I've heard that inspectors are ussually sticklers
about labeling of panels. Is there a chance that a DAR or Fed guy would
insist it be labeled as (" Oil" Temp" ). If so would somebody let me
know so I can send it back to ACS. Hope to meet some of you next week at
B.H.
TIA Ed G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Back in the fold |
Check out 23302. This is from the old style SQ top
load automatic washer. You can get the pump body
kit, 23299k and put either left hand or right hand
bottoms on it depending on the pump orientation
relative to engine rotation. Don't buy the aftermarket
stuff, some are OK but it's hard to tell untill it seizes
up. Don't tighten the belt like you do in a car as the
bronze bearing will wear a lot faster and seize up.
This kind of bearing wears into the direction of force
from the belt and at some point jams. When you relieve
the tension it appears to rotate just fine. A week later it
jams again. These pump body kits are cheap enough
that you can easily replace it (anywhere!) if there's the
slightest doubt.
I almost forgot. I don't think the reversing washer was
manufactured for the American market, Just Canadian
so you guys may have only one choice of bottom cover.
I've changed somewhere between 6000 and 8000 of
those pumps in the past 30 years.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Waytogopiet(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Back in the fold
>
> Hi Listers , back with you after a computer and address change. I have two
> queries I hope will bring some help. 1) Does anyone know if Bill Sayres is
> still on the list, has his bird flying, or has his e-mail address.
Attempts
> at his old Boeing URL were kicked back unknown.
> 2)My stock 'A' water pump holds its own under ideal conditions (on the
test
> stand) but on hot days it does not cool well at low RPMs. Wouldn't want
this
> to happen waiting in line to depart a fly-in or show so I am entertaining
the
> thought of changiong to a side mounted washing machine pump. Past
discussions
> and a visit to the archives seem to favor the old all metal Speed Queen #
> 23907. One very good reason was that Jack Mckinney managed to get over the
> big stuff and high desert from Arizona to Brodhead (and I hope back as
well
> !) with just such a pump. Sooo, if anyone might have one :) or provide a
> source or have had good performance with another brand, I would welcome
your
> response. Have heard the Model T pump will fit the 'A' but the cost is
> pretty steep @ $165 from Snyder's. Good to be back and TIA for any help.
> Don Hicks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: gauge labeling |
the only thing they are likely to require is range markings on the glass. A
temp gauge is a temp gauge.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: gauge labeling
>
> Hey group I ordered a mechanical
> "oil Temp." gauge from ACS. They sent me a generic gauge that just says
> "temperature" on it. I've heard that inspectors are ussually sticklers
> about labeling of panels. Is there a chance that a DAR or Fed guy would
> insist it be labeled as (" Oil" Temp" ). If so would somebody let me
> know so I can send it back to ACS. Hope to meet some of you next week at
> B.H.
> TIA Ed G.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: gauge labeling |
Great...Thanks Gene..I really wasn't looking forward to returning it but
didn't want to get stuck later on. Ed
>From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: gauge labeling
>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:29:52 -0400
>
>
>the only thing they are likely to require is range markings on the glass.
>A
>temp gauge is a temp gauge.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net>
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: gauge labeling
>
>
> >
> > Hey group I ordered a mechanical
> > "oil Temp." gauge from ACS. They sent me a generic gauge that just says
> > "temperature" on it. I've heard that inspectors are ussually sticklers
> > about labeling of panels. Is there a chance that a DAR or Fed guy would
> > insist it be labeled as (" Oil" Temp" ). If so would somebody let me
> > know so I can send it back to ACS. Hope to meet some of you next week at
> > B.H.
> > TIA Ed G.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Waytogopiet(at)aol.com |
Many thanks to Bill Sayres, Clif Dawson and Larry Williams for your very
helpful replies to my query re: Speed Queen water pumps for the Model A. I'll
get back to each of you re: your comments. Oh, and thanks too to Oscar
Zuniga and Craig Wilcox for the chuckles. You have been thoroughly
brainwashed by the Maytag repairmen's TV commercials. Madison Avenue will
love you !! Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: To Fly, is to Live |
Do you have any provision for carb heat??
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: To Fly, is to Live
I flew my plane this evening (Tuesday), for the second time !! YEEE HAAWW!!
What a rushhh !! I logged over an hour flight time this beautiful evening.
After my first flight, I felt like there was something going on in that ol'
Model A engine, so I changed the mag. The past couple of weeks, I
redesigned
the mag mounting bracket, and had to redesign the mag coupling, too. I also
changed the impeller in the water pump, to get a little more circulation. I
also adjusted the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer down a little,
to
help reduce the aft stick pressure, but it will have to be adjusted some
more, because I still have too much aft stick force, to maintain level
flight. In level flight, the elevators (some call them 'flippers') are down
about 3, and when I pull enough to make them parallel with the horizontal
stab, it pitches the nose up way too much. I'm thinking about adding a
spring to the elevator bell crank (I think Mike Cuy, and maybe some others
did this) to reduce my aft stick pressure, but I would rather reduce this
aft
stick force aerodynamically. Adjusting the L.E. of the stab down helps, but
it isn't enough. I also drilled out the pitot static tube, from #50 hole
to
#40 hole, to get the airspeed indicator, and altimeter to react more
quickly...it worked. I finally got the engine running yesterday. The
winds were calm today, so I called in work, and took a vacation day this
evening. Well worth it !! Benton Airpark was reletively quiet all day, but
this evening...everybody decided to fly !! There was 3 Piper Cubs, the
Stearman, an RV6, and a couple of C-150's in using the airport this evening.
BUSY PLACE...no radio...eyes peeled. Three times I was in the pattern to
land, but there was a plane on the grass strip, and I had to go around. I'm
gonna try to get out there in the morning, to practice my landings...I need
lots of practice !! The engine still wants to quit running, on short final,
when I pull power to idle, so I have to keep goosing the power, to keep the
engine running, and then I'm too hot on short final, so I had to do a wheels
landing, and stab the stick forward after the mains touched, which keeps the
wing at a low angle of attack to keep the plane on the ground, and then I
could keep the engine running. It idles fine with tail low attitude, on
the
ground. I've still got some carburetor gremlins. I think maybe the fuel
level in the bowl is too high, and in level flight attitude at idle, it is
too rich. I think I'll do a static run, with the tail up in level flight
attitude, and see what happens. Should have done that long ago. It burns
WAY too much fuel...5 g.p.h. Oh, did I tell ya I took from pictures while
I
flew this evening? As soon as I get them developed, I'll scan 'em in, and
send ya some shots of the Kansas countryside !!
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <genet(at)iwon.com> |
Pieters,
With the gathering just around the corner I'm considering
making the trip a family affair and my better half asked just how primitive the
camping would be. I don't really know how to answer and need some help with this
delicate issue. For me if there air airplanes involved I can endure almost
anything. I once spent the night in a 172 . Some advice on attending would be
much appreciated?
Gene Tomblin
------------------------------------------------
Can a Web portal forever change your life?
Win up to $25 Million on iWon - click here!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Gene,
They have one indoor bathroom and two indoor showers per sex. They will have
some port-a-johns also. For anyone who does any type of camping it will be
fine.
Skip
-----Original Message-----
From: genet(at)iwon.com [mailto:genet(at)iwon.com]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead
Pieters,
With the gathering just around the corner I'm considering
making the trip a family affair and my better half asked just how primitive
the camping would be. I don't really know how to answer and need some help
with this delicate issue. For me if there air airplanes involved I can
endure almost anything. I once spent the night in a 172 . Some advice on
attending would be much appreciated?
Gene Tomblin
------------------------------------------------
Can a Web portal forever change your life?
Win up to $25 Million on iWon - click here!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Hello, low 'n' slow fliers;
Someone mentioned lettering, decals, or graphics the other day. Mike Cuy
has found, as have I, that "AV/Grafix" provides excellent transfers and
placards. The graphics seen on the fuse sides on Mike's plane, and that
will be seen on mine, were done by this outfit. They have both stock and
custom stuff, and offer a catalog. If you don't want to mess with
hand-lettering or hand-painting your nose art and placards, give these guys
a try. (Corky: you might consider using a crawfish as your nose art).
Here's the contact info:
AV/Grafix
10587 Dupcza Dr.
Durand, Michigan 48429
(800) 352-2296
email aerograf(at)shianet.org
website http://www.avgrafix.com
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee Schiek" <leeschiek(at)hotmail.com> |
For privacy, peacefulness shade, camp on the West side, along the treeline....Plus,
a great view of the goings-on while parked in your chair.......You'll enjoy
the weekend!
/s/ Lee Schiek, Mgr.
College Park Airport (CGS)
"...The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the
insidious encroachment by men of zeal,
well-meaning but without understanding...."
-Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1928
From: "" <GENET(at)IWON.COM>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:01:42 -0400 (EDT)
-- Pietenpol-List message posted by: ""
Pieters,
With the gathering just around the corner I'm considering
making the trip a family affair and my better half asked just how primitive the
camping would be. I don't really know how to answer and need some help with this
delicate issue. For me if there air airplanes involved I can endure almost
anything. I once spent the night in a 172 . Some advice on attending would be
much appreciated?
Gene Tomblin
------------------------------------------------
Can a Web portal forever change your life?
Win up to $25 Million on iWon - click here!
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com> |
Re Brodhead--they also have breakfasts, BBQs, and other services to make the
fly-in a blast. You won't regret it if you can make it!
Mac in Oregon who wouldn't miss it.
----- Original Message -----
From: <genet(at)iwon.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead
>
>
> Pieters,
> With the gathering just around the corner I'm considering
> making the trip a family affair and my better half asked just how
primitive the camping would be. I don't really know how to answer and need
some help with this delicate issue. For me if there air airplanes involved I
can endure almost anything. I once spent the night in a 172 . Some advice on
attending would be much appreciated?
>
> Gene Tomblin
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Can a Web portal forever change your life?
> Win up to $25 Million on iWon - click here!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
All listers attending Brodhead - Please wear nametags so we can identify
each other.
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>>> macz(at)macsells.com 07/04/02 09:01AM >>>
Re Brodhead--they also have breakfasts, BBQs, and other services to make
the
fly-in a blast. You won't regret it if you can make it!
Mac in Oregon who wouldn't miss it.
----- Original Message -----
From: <genet(at)iwon.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead
>
>
> Pieters,
> With the gathering just around the corner I'm considering
> making the trip a family affair and my better half asked just how
primitive the camping would be. I don't really know how to answer and need
some help with this delicate issue. For me if there air airplanes involved
I
can endure almost anything. I once spent the night in a 172 . Some advice
on
attending would be much appreciated?
>
> Gene Tomblin
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Can a Web portal forever change your life?
> Win up to $25 Million on iWon - click here!
>
>
=
=
=
t
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Let's have a list of who-all will be at Brodhead. I'll start . . . Gene
Rambo
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead
>
> All listers attending Brodhead - Please wear nametags so we can identify
> each other.
>
> Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>
> >>> macz(at)macsells.com 07/04/02 09:01AM >>>
>
> Re Brodhead--they also have breakfasts, BBQs, and other services to make
> the
> fly-in a blast. You won't regret it if you can make it!
>
> Mac in Oregon who wouldn't miss it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <genet(at)iwon.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead
>
>
> >
> >
> > Pieters,
> > With the gathering just around the corner I'm considering
> > making the trip a family affair and my better half asked just how
> primitive the camping would be. I don't really know how to answer and need
> some help with this delicate issue. For me if there air airplanes involved
> I
> can endure almost anything. I once spent the night in a 172 . Some advice
> on
> attending would be much appreciated?
> >
> > Gene Tomblin
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > Can a Web portal forever change your life?
> > Win up to $25 Million on iWon - click here!
> >
> >
>
>
> t
>
>
June 04, 2002 - July 11, 2002
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cr