Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cv

October 04, 2002 - November 07, 2002



      YF-16 Prototype prior to the first flight, which was to be conducted by the
      company's Chief Test Pilot.  Phil was supposed to accelerate down the runway
      to 100knots, raise the nose, and then give aileron inputs so the flight
      control engineers could verify that the gain was set correctly on the flight
      control computer.  It wasn't.  The ailerons were much too sensitive and when
      Phil gave a quick aileron input to the left, the plane rolled violently
      left, wiping the Sidewinder missile off the wingtip.  He immediately
      corrected to the right, and got that missile too.  He instantly decided that
      this was going to hell in a hurry and punched the throttle into zone 5
      afterburner and took off.  He flew the airplane for about 15 minutes,
      getting used to its dangerously sensitive ailerons (remember that a
      production F-16 can roll at 540 degs. per second) and then executed a
      successful landing.
      
      He was given credit for saving the airplane by his quick thinking, but it
      caused a problem for the public relations types.  His boss was supposed to
      make the first flight, but now Phil had already done that.  Eventually they
      called Phil's inadvertant flight "Flight Number Zero" so his boss could have
      flight number one.  Amongst us engineers, however, Phil's flight became
      known as the "High Altitude Taxi" test.
      
      When it comes time to test fly my Piet, I will try my best to "plan the
      flight and fly the plan", but if I get into a situation where flying appears
      to be less dangerous than say, running off the runway, I won't hesitate to
      fly it.
      
      Again, congratulations Corky.
      
      Jack
      
      
      Corky wrote:
      
      >According to my test pilot, he was intending to do some runway taxi
      >runs when 41CC lifted from the runway and he could only follow it's
      >lead and fly the pattern.
      
      Then your test pilot wasn't the pilot-in-command, was he?
      
      As much as anyone, I long for the moment when I make the first flight in my
      homebuilt.  It's something I think about very often, and it's the carrot
      that dangles out there every time I look at the plans, parts, and disarray
      in the shop.  However, I've read enough to realize that "just going for it"
      on your first flight can cost you your hiney and all your hard work.  More
      than that, it can cost all the rest of us our hineys and our hard work
      because folks think of "those handmade little airplanes" as being dangerous
      and that we shouldn't be up there playing with non-certified toys.  Just
      think of the newspaper stories you've seen where some guy drills it in on
      his first flight because he "just went for it" rather than carefully shaking
      down the bird a step at a time.
      
      Plan your test flights, then fly your test plans.  Your test pilot may have
      winked at you as you pulled the chocks, and everything turned out
      marvelously, but just think of the possibilities if he had found that
      something wasn't quite right 200 ft. up rather than just rolling down the
      runway on a fast taxi.
      
      End of lecture.  I will have a hard time sticking to a regimented flight
      test sequence when that moment comes, but believe me- you will hear me
      yelling "waaaahhhoooooo!" for miles around when it actually happens.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: FW: Ruling
Date: Oct 04, 2002
Fantastik Corky. I worked on mine till 11:30 last night ( my wife left to visit our daughter for a week - NOW I'll get some real work done.) I am going as fast as I can. Unfortunately, I am picky and that ain't too fast... Ted in Naples By the way, how was he flying with Lilly aiming at you? Didn't you get hit? ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fw: Fw: FW: Ruling > > Hey Dick, > I'm finally coming down to earth. Last evening just about sunset she flew. It > was probably the most beautiful sight I've ever seen other than the first > time I looked at Isabelle. My test pilot came out after work, taxied a little > on one taxi way then said he felt like making some taxi tests on the active. > We went to that side of the airport to get a better view. He ran up for about > a minute and then went on the active for more taxi tests but gave too much > throttle and in about 150 ft he realized he was flying amd he did'nt stop. > Beautiful climb out, not steep, nice left turn, it sounded great on downwind, > nice decending turns to base and final and a beautiful 3 pointer on the > numbers, > . Isabelle and I were beside ourselves. One of the greatest moments of my > life. Worth all the work, frustration and all. He didn't stop but took off > again and made a much steeper climb out. Went to pattern before making his > first turn. He made three pattern rounds before he had to stop for dfarkness. > Said he had to hold back pressure on the stick at cruise. Hell, he didn't > weigh but 135 lbs so I think the W & B is good. Everything else he said felt > perfect. Rudder, ailerons easy and responsive. Elevator on flare was very > effective, I particularly watched that on all his landings. > Keep working, its all worthwhile. I think I'll share this with the list once > more. > Corky in La still waiting for the wind and rain > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2002
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: FW: Ruling
Ted, About 5 mph at sunset when he lifted off. It was absolutely beautiful. You can understand but if you ain't built one you can't. We had a light rain yesterday but not even a rain actually, just enough to make you use your wipers. I'm trying to pull out every stop to get something done so I can LEGALLY sit in that rear hole andfly my plane. It's tough having to watch someone do my work for me. We'll get these things together some day. Jim Cooper evacuated to Dallas and I haven't heard from him today. I talked to one of my tenants on my 80 acres at Intracoastal City, thats where the eye came ashore, and he told me that Abbeville and all Vermilion Parish is under marshal law. There was a tugboat tied up to a lifted spud barge on my bayou bank where he rode it out. He was talking to my friend on cell phone during the entire storm. My land went under about 2 ft of water with the surge. The press is not allowed in Vermilion Parish so that's why no one knows about it's devastation.Intracoastal City is wiped out. Keep in touch and thanks for your interest in 41CC Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2002
From: Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: first flight
> Pieters, test pilots and especially Oscar Z., Please don't take my statement that the airplane will decide when it's ready to fly as saying you don't need a test plan. A very good general plan is to fully explore a new airplane's ground handling before, well before, you start feeling it out in the air. You really need to explore all the nuances of taxi from zero up through wheel landing speeds, starting with the slowest speeds first, of course. At some point, as you perform your taxi tests faster and faster, you are going to be flying. But, at that point, you already have a flight test plan ready and waiting. Mike Hardaway > > Jack Phillips wrote: > > When it comes time to test fly my Piet, I will try my best to "plan the > > flight and fly the plan", but if I get into a situation where flying appears > > > to be less dangerous than say, running off the runway, I won't hesitate to > > fly it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Test Piloting
Date: Oct 05, 2002
All of this extended discussion about the proper way to conduct our first test flight has raised a number of points that I do not think are all that relevant. Someone on here mentioned "all of those crashes we keep hearing about where the owner just goes for it." I don't know about the rest of you, but I have not heard many such stories, if any. The only example given was of someone who nearly lost it because he lacked the tailwheel experience. If you are not experienced enough to fly the airplane in the first place, all of the taxi-ing in the world won't help you. The example of the F-16 test flight is not relevant because we are not test flying an unproven aircraft that no one has any idea of its flight characteristics. The only question is weight and balance, and that should be worked out beforehand. A Piet is not so complex that a crossed wire in a 3-inch wiring bundle is going to make the ailerons work opposite. Taking ANY tailwheel airplane and accelerating it to lift the tail, and then chopping the power and setting the tail back down is begging for trouble, i.e. a groundloop. That is not a natural maneuver, and it is not anything like a normal landing. I cringe when I watch people testing their new airplanes running up and down the runway doing this and rearly losing control every time. I have only test flown homebuilts and antique restorations where I was involved with the work, never where someone else built it and asked me to fly (nor do I think I ever would). When I am convinced that I have looked at every important component and verified that everything is correct, and I have had friends who I trust doubly-verify that I have not missed anything, I do "go for it." I only do enough taxi-ing to assure that the brakes work and to become familiar with the way it taxis. I believe that the most likely failure on a first flight is an engine failure, and I think these are the majority of the first-flight accidents you do hear of. For this reason, once on the runway I go for altitude (except a brief pause right after takeoff to verify the flight controls work like I expect them to. With altitude, everything else can work itself out. I am not advocating haste, or a lack of caution. If something is going to fall off of the airplane, you screwed up in the building process,or at least the preflight inspection. If the airplane is well-built, is built to (or in all important areas to) the plans, and has been thoroughly inspected a few million times by you and, hopefully, other knowledgable and trusted individuals, there is no reason the airplane should not fly safely. The only other question is whether you, the pilot, is qualified to fly the plane. If not, the experience needs to be gained in something else, not taxi-ing your new child. Gene Rambo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: First Flight
Date: Oct 05, 2002
Pieters, I have been following the discussion about the first flight on the list and would like to offer the following for discussion. Tom Wallis, the guy that did the first flight on my Piet has been a professional engineering test pilot for over 30 years. He has over 11,000 hours of test flights, worked over 16 years for Cessna, has done "known icing" flights for Marchatti in Italy, did the initial flights and testing of the two recent Sikorsky S-38 reproductions noted in "Sport Aviation" and other publications and has tested more than 115 different types. As a good friend, he also helped in the building of my Piet. (along with many others) We had much discussion about test flying, and when I suggested that ground tests including testing at a fast taxi up to take off speed could be more of a hazard to the plane (and pilot) than the results were worth, he agreed. The thought is that although taxi tests to check ground handling and brakes are important, running up and down the runway at ever higher speeds simply subject the plane to a greater hazard of an accident. If the plane has the proper center of gravity, the control throws are set properly, run up is good, one should simply feed throttle and go. It's better to explore controllability up away from the earth than be on the ground at high speed. "After all, an accident doesn't happen until you hit the ground!" What do you think? John Dilatush, NX114D Salida, Colorado. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Test Piloting
> >All of this extended discussion about the proper way to conduct our first >test flight has raised a number of points that I do not think are all that >relevant. > >Someone on here mentioned "all of those crashes we keep hearing about where >the owner just goes for it." I don't know about the rest of you, but I have >not heard many such stories, if any. The only example given was of someone >who nearly lost it because he lacked the tailwheel experience. If you are >not experienced enough to fly the airplane in the first place, all of the >taxi-ing in the world won't help you. Well group, I'm not at all qualified to comment on test flying. I'm still trying to get the 'four basics' down and overcome what my CFI calls '45 years of reflexes that have NOTHING to do with flying a plane'. As for 'all those crashes', I've heard unverified reports of 2 or three over the years. However, there was a published report I saw somewhere in the past year, may have been in Cy Galley's 'Experimenter' safety column, where the builder was in a rush to get the plane in the air before sunset. He & a friend had spent the day assembling the plane. He took off without adequately checking control response. The ailerons were hooked up backwards. He crashed & I think died. The point of the report was obvious - take your time on your first pre-flight checkout. I also think that the article made the point that it's plain foolish to spend all day doing final assembly & then trying to fly. Wait for another day, if for no other reason than to get over the tension & excitement of getting the plane ready to fly. Like Gene, I'm going to go over every point before I even try to to taxi it & then have someone else do the same. Corky, I'll add my congratulations on your first flight. Sorry to hear about your tenants down on the coast. We got the remains yesterday & that was bad enough for my tastes, I don't miss living on a hurricane coast, even if they don't understand barbeque up here! Cheers! Kip gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Allen" <GeorgeA(at)paonline.com>
Subject: Re: Two final words for awhile
Date: Oct 05, 2002
Corky, fortunately it started off a really good discussion. In the next year or two I'll be thinking about test flying my Piet. I hate waiting! Good luck Corky. George Allen Harrisburg, PA GeorgeA(at)PAonline.com (Peitenpol builder) > > Pieters, Just a couple of points before I sine off this list for awhile. > 1 I apologize to Matt and the list for the reply to Ted in Naples. I thought > it was a direct and not on line. > 2 I will put my can opener in a safe place where I will forget and not open > anymore cans of Piet worms. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: fuselage order
Date: Oct 06, 2002
Hi Everyone: I am at the stage of pulling my fuselage together and am not sure how to proceed, ie: what to do first and in what order. I will have the torque tube done by the end of the week or sooner and know it has to go in when the seat backs do, but did you all glue in the backs and then the bottom or what. I have built 2 X 4 L's with ply sides to keep the fuselage in alignment, but should I glue on the 1/4" to the bottom and then pull it together or put in the backs and then pull it together or what. Could someone give me a construction order? Dennis Engelkenjohn ps.... it is a long fuselage model if it makes a difference. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: fuselage order
Date: Oct 06, 2002
Dennis, The way I did it if I remember right, I jiged and clamped the front of the fuse, putting in all of the cross braces back to the rear seat where it starts to taper, then I pulled the tail together. The floor went on after. Make sure to use alignment marks and a midline for reference as your putting it together. I didn't put the sides on untill I had the controls in. Makes installation a whole lot easier. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage order > > Hi Everyone: > > I am at the stage of pulling my fuselage together and am not sure how to proceed, ie: what to do first and in what order. > I will have the torque tube done by the end of the week or sooner and know it has to go in when the seat backs do, but did you all glue in the backs and then the bottom or what. > I have built 2 X 4 L's with ply sides to keep the fuselage in alignment, but should I glue on the 1/4" to the bottom and then pull it together or put in the backs and then pull it together or what. > Could someone give me a construction order? > Dennis Engelkenjohn > ps.... it is a long fuselage model if it makes a difference. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2002
From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: First test flights
Gene Rambo has said it all. Listen to him. Let me just add that you should use the longest runway available, even if it means trucking to another airport. That assures some runway ahead of you if you don't like what is happening (engine problems, primarily). I was witness to a first flight here in Oshkosh, where a fellow was doing his "high speed taxi tests" (we usually don't practice ditching with our homebuilts, either) in his new Focke-Wulf fighter (tailwheel) homebuilt. At full power, he suddenly found himself in a nose high attitude and about 30 feet high. What to do? Chop the power! Rebuilding took three years after he got put back together. Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2002
Ted B., "the Judge", GN-1 flier, Piet builder.......Randy Bruce is wondering why you haven't contacted him re: painting your logo. He looked for you at Sun n Fun but never saw you. Don't Archive ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2002
From: Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net>
Subject: first flight
Oscar, (this is for you and anyone else who read the previous post) (And thanks to Mike Cuy for helping set the record straight.) I was Corky's test pilot. I do not like retort with credentials, but my successful flying career, experience, and wise decision making stand as my record. However, not withstanding: In Corky's euphoria, he rather made this as storybook rather than actual fact and used a few words and phrases inappropriately. So you want the real story which I wrote to Mike Cuy? I made many taxi tests and after close visual inspection between Corky and I, we corrected angles in the horizontal stab and looked closely at the wash out/in of the wings before proceeding with further taxi tests. Corky extended the arms on the control horns on the tailwheel and I did further taxi testing, as well as full static runups to prove to myself that the engine would develop recommended power (at least according to my memory of the 17 years I owned a Luscombe with a 65hp Cont.). Only then did I ask for the main runway and this, Oscar, was carefully planned. I wanted to put the plane on the mains lift it off the ground to see if the controls felt balanced and check to see if there were yaw or control problems which I felt would prohibit further flight. The runway at DTN is quite long and wide with a lot of real estate around, so my plan was, of course, to abort at this point (say two feet off the ground) if things didn't meet my expectations. The plane felt very comfortable and the controls were balanced with no yaw problems and the engine was developing recommended power, so I decided to continue with a standard pattern as the tower had already cleared me, of course monitoring especially carefully the whole time, the power plant. So, Oscar, as you see this was very carefully planned and executed. Now this might not have been how you would have performed the flight test, but I'm sure there are many ways to do a flight test. I had a plan, and carried it out as I planned it - the direct recommendation of the AC. The one thing I've learned in my years as pilot is to provide yourself with an 'out' - _always_. This I did and, thankfully, did not need to use it for the plane flew absolutely beautifully and is a fine example of Corky's workmanship. Obviously in the hours to come both he and I will learn much of its manners. So much for my defense, but I wanted you to have the story directly from me. I must thank Mike Cuy for his wise counsel in several areas, and as I told him, it doesn't matter how many hours you have or your experience level, if you aren't willing to learn from others who have direct experience with the plane or type of operation you are seeking, you will probably regret not listening to them. :) ...Edwin > > Corky wrote: > > >According to my test pilot, he was intending to do some runway taxi > >runs when 41CC lifted from the runway and he could only follow it's > >lead and fly the pattern. > > Then your test pilot wasn't the pilot-in-command, was he? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~ ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~ ~ ~ ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~ ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~ ~ for there you have been, there you long ~ ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: First test flights
Date: Oct 06, 2002
I don't know about saying it all, but Edwin's approach he laid out in his post is exactly what I was trying to say, but not nearly as eloquently as he did (and I am a lawyer, not that THAT means a lot). When you've done all you can do inspection-wise, and it feels right after liftoff, it is better to go for it than to keep scr**ing around in ground effect where you stand a higher chance of damaging the airplane. In only intended my comments as a response to the people who questioned whether it would have been proper to spend more time doing taxi-tests to Corky's airplane. Gene Rambo ----- Original Message ----- From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: First test flights > > Gene Rambo has said it all. Listen to him. > > Let me just add that you should use the longest runway available, even if > it means trucking to another airport. That assures some runway ahead of > you if you don't like what is happening (engine problems, primarily). > > I was witness to a first flight here in Oshkosh, where a fellow was doing > his "high speed taxi tests" (we usually don't practice ditching with our > homebuilts, either) in his new Focke-Wulf fighter (tailwheel) > homebuilt. At full power, he suddenly found himself in a nose high > attitude and about 30 feet high. What to do? Chop the power! Rebuilding > took three years after he got put back together. > > Doc Mosher > Oshkosh USA > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: first flight
Date: Oct 07, 2002
Howdy again, low 'n' slow fliers; Edwin wrote: >In Corky's euphoria, he rather made this as storybook rather than >actual fact and used a few words and phrases inappropriately. Aha! The real story emerges! There was never any doubt in my mind that Corky did NOT just shove NX41CC out of the nest without any forethought. His detailed and careful emails on this list have proven that if anything, he is overly cautious about things. Had it been "the Fisherman" I would have my doubts, but I knew the plane was airworthy and would do just fine, and the "rest of the story" was what went on behind the scenes as Edwin did all the preflight testing and all the checking and other "homework" to get her ready for flight. (I just hope that Edwin gave at least one good Cajun "aaaaayyeeeeee!" when the plane took wing.) I guess the point of my email (and of the other concerned replies) is that there are some folks out there who want to just "kick the tires and light the fires" and take their new airplanes in the air first thing. The FAA has signed off on their airworthiness, so why not? Speaking for myself, I'm a mechanical and electrical engineer and have built the airplane to my own personal satisfaction, and I will decide when she can fly because I'm a licensed and rated pilot with the tailwheel time needed to do it, right? But prudence dictates that we ease into the flight test plan, and Edwin and Corky did just that. They just didn't let on what was going on behind the scenes! This Piet bunch sure is great! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: first flight
Date: Oct 07, 2002
Just had to go and mention the "fisherman", didn't you. Some of us are trying to forget. Larry Ragan Jacksonville, Fl. lragan(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Piet Vne?
Date: Oct 07, 2002
Trying to get log books in order for the big inspection day soon. What are you guys stating as Vne? And any other good stats that I'm overlooking. thanks alot walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: Piet Vne?
The most common Vne I've seen is 120mph. Kirk > > >Trying to get log books in order for the big inspection day soon. >What are you guys stating as Vne? >And any other good stats that I'm overlooking. >thanks alot >walt >NX140DL >(north N.J.) > > -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Piet Vne?
Date: Oct 07, 2002
Thanks, Kirk. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet Vne? <kirkh@unique-software.com> > > The most common Vne I've seen is 120mph. > > Kirk > > > > > > >Trying to get log books in order for the big inspection day soon. > >What are you guys stating as Vne? > >And any other good stats that I'm overlooking. > >thanks alot > >walt > >NX140DL > >(north N.J.) > > > > > > > -- > Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2002
From: "Brants" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net>
Subject: Re: fuselage order
I did mine similar to this except for having one of the sides on... Worked great. Tom B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuselage order > > Dennis, The way I did it if I remember right, I jiged and clamped the front > of the fuse, putting in all of the cross braces > back to the rear seat where it starts to taper, then I pulled the tail > together. The floor went on after. > Make sure to use alignment marks and a midline for reference as your putting > it together. > I didn't put the sides on untill I had the controls in. Makes installation a > whole lot easier. > Carl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage order > > > > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > I am at the stage of pulling my fuselage together and am not sure how > to proceed, ie: what to do first and in what order. > > I will have the torque tube done by the end of the week or sooner and > know it has to go in when the seat backs do, but did you all glue in the > backs and then the bottom or what. > > I have built 2 X 4 L's with ply sides to keep the fuselage in > alignment, but should I glue on the 1/4" to the bottom and then pull it > together or put in the backs and then pull it together or what. > > Could someone give me a construction order? > > Dennis Engelkenjohn > > ps.... it is a long fuselage model if it makes a difference. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2002
Subject: Re: Piet Vne?
In a message dated 10/7/02 6:01:55 PM Central Daylight Time, wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: << What are you guys stating as Vne? >> The plans say HIGH SPEED - 90 M.P.H. That's what I used for my Vne. The two things that always have concerned me with this design, is control surface flutter, and aft C.G. condition. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG Wichita KS p.s. I hope to see everyone at the Benton Fly - In, this saturday !! Wouldn't that be something... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2002
Subject: Aero Engineers
Pieter Aero Engineers, Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right elevator bent downward correct this little problem? Corky in La skyhigh ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2002
From: Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Corky, You're asking about a semi-permanent trim tab solution to a temporary trim condition. To directly answer your question: Yes, a tab on the trailing edge of the elevator would, if bent downward, reduce back pressure when your lightweight test pilot is flying. However, when any of the many things that affect center of gravity position change, such as pilot weight or carrying a passenger, the amount of bending you have on the tab will need to change. Speed will also affect the desired trim setting. Your test pilot may have needed back pressure at a slower speed, say 75 mph, but could find he needed a significant amount of nose down pressure at a higher speed, like say 90 mph. A better solution than a permanent trim tab could be an adjustable trim tension spring setup like Mike Cuy drew up some time back. It would take over some of the trim load and would be over-rideable when necessary. If your test pilot finds there is always a need for back pressure on the stick throughout the CG and speed envelopes, then a permanent tab, bent a little bit at a time, can help ease the physical drain of holding that back pressure. Mike Hardaway Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote: > > Pieter Aero Engineers, > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. > > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? > > Corky in La skyhigh > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Date: Oct 08, 2002
wouldn't the better solution to a constant trim problem be to tweak the tail wires to increase/decrease the incidence of the horizontal at the ends? no ugly trim tab required. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hardaway" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers > > Corky, > You're asking about a semi-permanent trim tab solution to a temporary trim > condition. To directly answer your question: Yes, a tab on the trailing edge of > the elevator would, if bent downward, reduce back pressure when your lightweight > test pilot is flying. > However, when any of the many things that affect center of gravity position > change, such as pilot weight or carrying a passenger, the amount of bending you > have on the tab will need to change. > Speed will also affect the desired trim setting. Your test pilot may have > needed back pressure at a slower speed, say 75 mph, but could find he needed a > significant amount of nose down pressure at a higher speed, like say 90 mph. > A better solution than a permanent trim tab could be an adjustable trim tension > spring setup like Mike Cuy drew up some time back. It would take over some of > the trim load and would be over-rideable when necessary. > If your test pilot finds there is always a need for back pressure on the stick > throughout the CG and speed envelopes, then a permanent tab, bent a little bit > at a time, can help ease the physical drain of holding that back pressure. > Mike Hardaway > > > Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > Pieter Aero Engineers, > > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on > > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. > > > > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right > > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? > > > > Corky in La skyhigh > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2002
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
DJ that's the kind of engineering I wanted to hear about. Please take a minute and return the wisdom I'll need to twick those wires and give me a little theory too. Thanks Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: lead weight
Corky--Since most pilots who will fly your plane in the future will be a bit heavier than Edwin, I'd simply plunk a lead weight or something heavy in your hatbox or area behind the pilot in the turtledeck area. Or strap something behind the seat or inside the fuselage if you have a nice belly access cover to reach your bellcrank/walking beam deal. You'd even use less weight if you added some bolted to the tailwheel spring area or heck, use nylon tye wraps to tie various wts. to the tailwheel area then have him fly, land, try another til it's about right. I guess if would also help if you just filled your tank to 1/2 instead of full. Ain't it FUN seeing it flying ??????????? Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Trim
Date: Oct 08, 2002
Corky...I believe it was Doug Bryant that said he tweaked his trim by adusting the front Horizontal stabilizer turnbuckles which twists the leading edge of the stabilizer up or down to trim the tail. If you tighten the lowers and loosen the uppers a little at a time it should put down pressure on the tail. Never done it, but I heard it works and it's not permanant. Once the big guy gets to fly it it can be readusted. Just a suggestion that may work. Ed G. http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2002
From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: Need for trim tab
Hi Corky and Isabelle - It was really great to see you folks at Brodhead. It's nice to be able to visualize you people when I read the Piet e-mails. Congratulations on getting the Piet into the air! Reason enough for a fais dodo. My Cajun implant is kicking in. Concerning the longitudinal trim of your new and now-flying Pietenpol - First of all, it sounds like with the slightly more substantial Corky in the cockpit, your Piet comes out just about perfect for longitudinal trim! Good job! However, Corky, you may want to adjust the number of pennies you have in your pocket from day to day, depending on the adiabatic lapse rate. There are several longitudinal trim fixes that are available. You probably won't need any, but some folks on the net may not know about them. The "Wichita fix" (Chuck Gantzer) is to change the tension on the front tail rigging wires. By loosening and tightening of the top and bottom forward rigging wires on the leading edges of the stabilizers, the outboard ends of the leading edges of the stabilizer can be slightly warped up or down. Try to do them evenly, left and right. The wooden stabilizer will warp easily, so use discretion on how much you can do. Another method to use when there is chronic slight tailheaviness (but not enough to justify changing wing position), the entire leading edge of the stabilizer attachment can be raised slightly by putting a washer or two between the stabilizer leading edge and the fuselage mounting pad. Another method - A quick and simple method is to attach a simple trim tab to the trailing edge of the elevator. Since most flying will be done with Corky in the rear seat, set it for that and let any other pilots put up with a slight out-of-trim condition. After you have decided just how much trim you need (if any) with Corky flying, you can replace the trim tab with a less visible correction. I always feel that an added stuck-on trim tab, no matter what control surface it affects, is a visible admission of an engineering error somewhere along the line. Rather than screwing a trim tab onto the trailing edge, use a less visible two or three inch long piece of small diameter aluminum or plastic tubing, (depending on the amount of effect needed) taped lengthwise along the top or bottom of the trailing edge. This is a cut and fit proposition. Use masking tape to temporarily fasten the tube to the trailing edge and fly the airplane for a while. The tube goes on the side of the elevator or rudder or aileron where the trim tab would bent toward. Once the amount of trailing edge airflow disruption has been established by shortening or lengthening the tubing, the masking tape is replaced with fabric finishing tape and glued into place and finished in the surface colors. It will practically disappear. When applied to the bottom of the elevator the tubing is invisible. When added to the top of the elevator, use a pair of tubes taped to the inboard ends of both elevators. Then the fix looks like "that's just the way a Piet is built." Then there is the trim system that ties to the actual control stick and is adjustable in flight. This usually consists of a screendoor spring. Anchored at one end to a forward or rearward structure (depending on whether the airplane is chronically tailheavy or noseheavy in flight), the other end is attached to the control stick using a clamp around the stick. The anchor point of the spring should be lower in the cockpit than the stick attachment end. The stick attachment can be made adjustable by sliding the stick attachment up or down the control stick, which stretches the spring more or less. This is especially useful in Piets where fuel is consumed from various tanks that are not on the CG. Corky, you may want something like this after your Richard Bach long range tanks are installed. There are several other such systems in use on flying Piets. An important word of caution for those who have a really out of limits CG problem upon assembly. These aerodynamic trim fixes are for very fine tuning. They do not change the basic requirement of having your airplane within loaded CG weight limits. If you are out of loaded CG range, make the required structural changes. Move the engine or/and move the wing before you try to fly. I didn't mean to sound so pontifical, but we have a wide range of skills in the Piet group. Once you hit the mark as closely as you have, Corky, then go ahead and fine tune. Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2002
Subject: Re: Trim
Thanks Ed, We are flying it again tomorrow afternoon weather permitting and I believe I'll just add a pound or two securely to the tail wheel spring and experiment by degrees with this light test pilot. Corky still in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Date: Oct 08, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers Corky, I have 18 lbs of nose heaviness I'll trade you for 6 lbs of tail heaviness. No boot however! John > > Pieter Aero Engineers, > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. > > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? > > Corky in La skyhigh > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Date: Oct 08, 2002
Corky, That exact thing cured the same problem on my Rag-A-Muffin ultralight (made of wood and vaguely looks like a piet). Only it was not a small tab mine is 12" x 4". I put it on the underside of the elevator. Wayne McIntosh ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers > > Pieter Aero Engineers, > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. > > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? > > Corky in La skyhigh > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Corky, Glad to hear that your test flying is going well. For what it's worth, William Wynne had a trim adjustment wheel mounted to the lower right side of the pilot's cockpit of his now-destroyed Piet (it said TRIM in big block letters, with arrows for up & down adjustment & cables went towards the rear of the plane). He did not have a trim tab on his elevator, so I have no idea how he might have had it hooked up & I didn't think to ask at the time. Any comments gang? Cheers, Kip Gardner >> >> Pieter Aero Engineers, >> Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure >on >> the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. >> >> Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right >> elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >> >> Corky in La skyhigh 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2002
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
In a message dated 10/8/02 8:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes: << Pieter Aero Engineers, Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >> Corky, Congrats on your flying Pietenpol !! I'm sure the elation you feel watching 'er in the air, will pale by comparison, when you fly 'er yourself !! Just don't get too anxious...training is the key. Flight Testing: Here is what I did to correct the out of trim condition I had. As per Doug Bryant's direction, I tweaked the leading edge of the horizontal stab, down, to pitch the nose up, thus reducing the back pressure on the stick, required to maintain level flight. I did this 3 or 4 times, test flying each time. I loosened the top fwd turnbuckles about one turn (both sides equally) and tightening the bottom fwd turnbuckles, and re-safteying them. Each time it made a difference in pitch trim, but it still didn't seem to be enough, and if you eyeball the leading edge, you can see it it tweaked down. I then elected to try a trim tab. I used a piece of balsa wood (recovered from an aileron from my vast collection of model airplane stuff), sanded a radius on the thick portion to match the radius of the trailing edge of the elevators, and taped them on the trailing edge of BOTH elevators, angled down about 20. I used duct tape (90 mph tape) for the test phase, and tweaked it down a tiny bit at a time, till I got it right. I then glued the tab on, and used fabric to cover the tab. At high cruise speed, on pitch trim, she flys almost hands off. Slower speeds she still requires a little back pressure. I also had a left wing heavy condition. After 4 or 5 tests confirming that it was not a torque thing going on (neutral thrust flight), and leveling the plane and re-checking symmetry, I found I had to tweak the wing. To bring the right wing back (lowering the leading edge), left wing forward (raising the leading edge), with the cables between the lift struts, after loosening all the hardware. All told, the Right wing tip was moved back about 1/4", Left wing forward 1/4" (one quarter inch). Doesn't sound like much but it made 90 % of the left wing heavy condition go away. I'll probably tweak it again, just a tiny bit more. I've still got some gremlins in the carburetor...damn them critters !! Every flight for me is a test flight, and a training flight. I'm now ready to start streaching 'er legs. My longest flight thus far has been 1.3 hrs. Now ready for 1.5 hr flight, and an 'Iron Butt' award. Next summer, 'We' are going to fly to Broadhead, as well as that other fly - in, to the North, then on to Wheeling, West Virginia (home town). Gonna be quite an adventure !! Chuck Gantzer NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2002
Subject: Re: Benton Fly - In Info
In a message dated 10/8/02 7:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time, KHallsten(at)governair.com writes: << What type of arrangements are there for lunch? Can we chip in money for burgers, dogs and pop? >> I've got 2 small grills for burgers & dogs. We'll just "Wing It". I hope we can get a couple of 'Young Eagle Flights' in, with some of the local pilots. Bring good weather with ya !! Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Oct 09, 2002
Subject: W. Winn's trim
I would guess that William's trim wheel cables went to the bell crank ( walking beam ?) Nose down to the lower side of the bell crank, nose up cable to the top of the bell crank. He would have needed to have springs in the final connection so he could manually over ride the trim system. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2002
From: Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net>
Subject: Aero Engineers & Second Flight
Thanks to all the many and varied responses to Corky's question regarding trim, etc. The back pressure I am having to hold is somewhat considerable, not allowing me to scratch my nose, while in cruise. :) But, then, my weight is around 140 lbs. The spring-trim, ala Mike Cuy, is probably the easiest idea for trim, but we might need to use displaced weights, which he also suggested, for me as opposed to Corky (who is a little heavier than I am). We don't want to start twisting horiz stab wires if it will not accommodate several weight pilots, so I am doing a lot of W&B figuring with a visual instantaneous program I wrote on the computer. But I really need to know what the balanced CG comes out with your planes with one pilot and full of fuel. Doc Mosher wrote of (I believe) standards in older documents: >and 22% and 34% of the MAC for high wing monoplanes and biplanes. This translates, if your datum is the leading edge, to 13.2" and 20.4". BP, as I remember, gave 21" as somewhat of an aft limit, which is 35% MAC. With full fuel and my 140 lbs, the CG is 16.1" or 26.9 %MAC, which as you can see is rather forward, hence back pressure needed on the stick. With full fuel and a 195 lb pilot, the CG becomes 18.4 or 30.6% MAC. My suspicion is that around 30% MAC (18") is ideal, but would like to hear what others' CG at full fuel and pilot is. This will give us data to effect changes which may be good for several different weight pilots. For your further info, our empty with oil CG is: 631 lbs, 11.4", 18.9 %MAC. SECOND FLIGHT: Whew! You can read all of these and other posts and still not realize what a beautiful flying plane a Pietenpol is until you've actually flown one! The second flight proved the plane stable in all aspects with nice, positive control in all maneuvers, which included steep turns, slow flight, stalls. Yes, and it is fun to hear those flying wires whistle when you slow it down. :) BP really did design a nice flying plane. ...Edwin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~ ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~ ~ ~ ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~ ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~ ~ for there you have been, there you long ~ ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: W. Winn's trim
> >I would guess that William's trim wheel cables went to the bell crank ( >walking beam ?) Nose down to the lower side of the bell crank, nose up >cable to the top of the bell crank. He would have needed to have springs >in the final connection so he could manually over ride the trim system. >Leon S. Thanks Leon, that makes sense. Cheers, Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Date: Oct 09, 2002
Fellow Pietenpol builders, I have my fuselage glued up and am ready to fabricate the controls. Is everyone using 4130 steel for that job? Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers > > In a message dated 10/8/02 8:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time, > Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes: > > << Pieter Aero Engineers, > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. > > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >> > > Corky, > Congrats on your flying Pietenpol !! I'm sure the elation you feel watching > 'er in the air, will pale by comparison, when you fly 'er yourself !! Just > don't get too anxious...training is the key. > Flight Testing: > Here is what I did to correct the out of trim condition I had. As per Doug > Bryant's direction, I tweaked the leading edge of the horizontal stab, down, > to pitch the nose up, thus reducing the back pressure on the stick, required > to maintain level flight. I did this 3 or 4 times, test flying each time. > I loosened the top fwd turnbuckles about one turn (both sides equally) and > tightening the bottom fwd turnbuckles, and re-safteying them. Each time it > made a difference in pitch trim, but it still didn't seem to be enough, and > if you eyeball the leading edge, you can see it it tweaked down. I then > elected to try a trim tab. I used a piece of balsa wood (recovered from an > aileron from my vast collection of model airplane stuff), sanded a radius on > the thick portion to match the radius of the trailing edge of the elevators, > and taped them on the trailing edge of BOTH elevators, angled down about 20. > I used duct tape (90 mph tape) for the test phase, and tweaked it down a > tiny bit at a time, till I got it right. I then glued the tab on, and used > fabric to cover the tab. At high cruise speed, on pitch trim, she flys > almost hands off. Slower speeds she still requires a little back pressure. > I also had a left wing heavy condition. After 4 or 5 tests confirming that > it was not a torque thing going on (neutral thrust flight), and leveling the > plane and re-checking symmetry, I found I had to tweak the wing. To bring > the right wing back (lowering the leading edge), left wing forward (raising > the leading edge), with the cables between the lift struts, after loosening > all the hardware. All told, the Right wing tip was moved back about 1/4", > Left wing forward 1/4" (one quarter inch). Doesn't sound like much but it > made 90 % of the left wing heavy condition go away. I'll probably tweak it > again, just a tiny bit more. I've still got some gremlins in the > carburetor...damn them critters !! Every flight for me is a test flight, and > a training flight. I'm now ready to start streaching 'er legs. My longest > flight thus far has been 1.3 hrs. Now ready for 1.5 hr flight, and an 'Iron > Butt' award. Next summer, 'We' are going to fly to Broadhead, as well as > that other fly - in, to the North, then on to Wheeling, West Virginia (home > town). Gonna be quite an adventure !! > > Chuck Gantzer > NX770CG > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Date: Oct 09, 2002
yup... mines 4130 tube. I've seen a few done in aluminum. either way is good providing the joints are good and strong. DJ www.raptoronline.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers > > Fellow Pietenpol builders, > I have my fuselage glued up and am ready to fabricate the controls. Is > everyone using 4130 steel for that job? > Alex Sloan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers > > > > > > In a message dated 10/8/02 8:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time, > > Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes: > > > > << Pieter Aero Engineers, > > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure > on > > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,. > > > > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right > > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >> > > > > Corky, > > Congrats on your flying Pietenpol !! I'm sure the elation you feel > watching > > 'er in the air, will pale by comparison, when you fly 'er yourself !! > Just > > don't get too anxious...training is the key. > > Flight Testing: > > Here is what I did to correct the out of trim condition I had. As per > Doug > > Bryant's direction, I tweaked the leading edge of the horizontal stab, > down, > > to pitch the nose up, thus reducing the back pressure on the stick, > required > > to maintain level flight. I did this 3 or 4 times, test flying each time. > > I loosened the top fwd turnbuckles about one turn (both sides equally) and > > tightening the bottom fwd turnbuckles, and re-safteying them. Each time > it > > made a difference in pitch trim, but it still didn't seem to be enough, > and > > if you eyeball the leading edge, you can see it it tweaked down. I then > > elected to try a trim tab. I used a piece of balsa wood (recovered from > an > > aileron from my vast collection of model airplane stuff), sanded a radius > on > > the thick portion to match the radius of the trailing edge of the > elevators, > > and taped them on the trailing edge of BOTH elevators, angled down about > 20. > > I used duct tape (90 mph tape) for the test phase, and tweaked it down a > > tiny bit at a time, till I got it right. I then glued the tab on, and > used > > fabric to cover the tab. At high cruise speed, on pitch trim, she flys > > almost hands off. Slower speeds she still requires a little back > pressure. > > I also had a left wing heavy condition. After 4 or 5 tests confirming > that > > it was not a torque thing going on (neutral thrust flight), and leveling > the > > plane and re-checking symmetry, I found I had to tweak the wing. To > bring > > the right wing back (lowering the leading edge), left wing forward > (raising > > the leading edge), with the cables between the lift struts, after > loosening > > all the hardware. All told, the Right wing tip was moved back about 1/4", > > Left wing forward 1/4" (one quarter inch). Doesn't sound like much but it > > made 90 % of the left wing heavy condition go away. I'll probably tweak > it > > again, just a tiny bit more. I've still got some gremlins in the > > carburetor...damn them critters !! Every flight for me is a test flight, > and > > a training flight. I'm now ready to start streaching 'er legs. My > longest > > flight thus far has been 1.3 hrs. Now ready for 1.5 hr flight, and an > 'Iron > > Butt' award. Next summer, 'We' are going to fly to Broadhead, as well as > > that other fly - in, to the North, then on to Wheeling, West Virginia > (home > > town). Gonna be quite an adventure !! > > > > Chuck Gantzer > > NX770CG > > > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Oct 10, 2002
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Alex...You can use 4130 or 1020. 4130 is easy to order in the different sizes needed through ACS , Wicks, Dillsburg etc. BUT don't braze 4130 as shown in the plans 4130 must be welded. Ed Grentzer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2002
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
Alex, 4130 is a good choice. And, as Ed says, do not braze 4130. The merits of welding using OA vs. TIG remain open to debate. Dale and I used OA and we're happy. I recommend Dillsburg Aeroplane Works for ordering steel. Contact them at: 114 Sawmill Rd. Dillsburg, PA 17019 717 432-4589 Here is a repeat of gage to decimal conversions: Gage to decimal for TUBING: 11 ga .120 12 ga N/A 13 ga .095 14 ga .083 16 ga .065 17 ga .058 18 ga .049 20 ga .035 22 ga .028 Gage to decimal for SHEET: 11 ga .125 12 ga .100 13 ga .090 14 ga .080 16 ga .063 18 ga .050 20 ga .040 22 ga .032 or .025 Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis >>> flyboy_120(at)webtv.net 10/10/02 04:52AM >>> Alex...You can use 4130 or 1020. 4130 is easy to order in the different sizes needed through ACS , Wicks, Dillsburg etc. BUT don't braze 4130 as shown in the plans 4130 must be welded. Ed Grentzer http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2002
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
From: catdesigns(at)juno.com
I think the majority of builders these days are using 4130. It's stronger for the same size and easier to obtain. Chris Sacramento, CA ---------- "Alex Sloan" writes: From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:47:39 -0500 Fellow Pietenpol builders, I have my fuselage glued up and am ready to fabricate the controls. Is everyone using 4130 steel for that job? Alex Sloan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Waytogopiet(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 11, 2002
Subject: Re: Aero Engineers
May have been something like my Buhl Bull Pup which had two small vanes that protruded from either side of the fuselage directly under the horizontal stab. They were connected with an axle on which a sprocket was mounted. A small cable ran from the cockpit to a short length of bicycle chain that actuated the sprocket and vanes. It did not have a great affect but enough to help the fore and aft stick forces. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobka(at)charter.net
Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#1867731345: Aircraft
Engine Continental 65 Hp
Date: Oct 11, 2002
Here is an A-65 located in Wisconsin, I think, for sale. Title of item: Aircraft Engine Continental 65 Hp Seller: edlainwisconsin Price: Starts at $800.00 To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1867731345 Item Description: 2526.39 Total Time, 1741.79 Time Since Major Overhaul. Tapered Shaft. Removed from Aeronca Champ July 1999. Was running strong when removed. No accessories. Have LogBooks. Engine is on a stand. Can ship for shipping expenses. Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2002
Subject: [ Corky Corbett ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Corky Corbett Subject: First flight NX41CC 2 Oct 02 http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Isablcorky@aol.com.10.12.2002/index.html -------------------------------------------- o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE Share your files and photos with other List members simply by emailing the files to: pictures(at)matronics.com Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos. o Main Photo Share Index: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: aircraft mufflers
Hi everyone after firing up my vair for the first time the other day, I decided it may need a little toning down on the exhaust end, I may have to make a custom muffler. so the question is... are aircraft mufflers usually just an empty can or is it packed with fiberglass. I'll probably make it out of stainless or titanium, any guesses as to what thickness material to use, or any good websites I can access to learn about the subject. thanks much ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kent Hallsten" <hallstenokc(at)cox.net>
Subject: Benton Fly - In Recap
Date: Oct 13, 2002
I had a great time at the Benton "Hangar Fly-in" ! Although the weather didn't cooperate for flying, it didn't seem to make a difference for me. Marshall and I intended to fly up, but we drove and got to watch Mike Cuy's video on the way ! It was a treat to be able to associate with other builders and put a real person to a name on the list. And to see my first ever completed Pietenpol, with a Model A is memorable. I met almost everyone who came to Benton, let's see if I remember who was there, I know I will miss a few, sorry. Doug Bryant Chuck Gantzer Mike Conkling and his father, John Leon Stefan Dennis Engelkenjohn Marshall Alexander and his daughter Kaitlynn Mitchell Alexander ( an RV fan who had to check out the hangar behind the tree line) I know there were two others who left for lunch after we got back from ours, I'm sorry not to get your names, and another one or two who left almost when we arrived. Chuck, did you ever make it to lunch? It seemed whenever you got ready to go, someone had another question to ask you! You have a beautiful airplane Chuck, I hope mine can become a beauty like yours. I picked up some good ideas crawling around your plane. Your building log and photos were fun to look over. Leon Stefan brought his fuel tank, landing gear, wheels, center section and front cockpit door, all works of art in my eye. You sure will have an eye catching Pietenpol, Leon ! I want to thank Chuck and Doug for giving Marshall and I the jigs to get us through the metal working stage. When I get done with them I'll let the list know and someone else can benefit from them. So now it's out to the garage and finish my ribs, I have some catching up to do !! Kent Hallsten Oklahoma City hallstenokc(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: aircraft mufflers
Date: Oct 13, 2002
Try the flowmaster site This design uses no fiberglass packing to blow out Ken http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/web10/SePerfMuff6.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft mufflers > > Hi everyone > after firing up my vair for the first time the other > day, I decided it may need a little toning down on the > exhaust end, I may have to make a custom muffler. so > the question is... are aircraft mufflers usually just > an empty can or is it packed with fiberglass. I'll > probably make it out of stainless or titanium, any > guesses as to what thickness material to use, or any > good websites I can access to learn about the subject. > thanks much > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 14, 2002
Subject: Re: Benton Fly - In Recap
Yeah, even though the weather didn't cooperate, it is always a good time to spend with others who share our unique interest in building planes. Homebuilders are a rare breed. All of you folks know what I mean. When we get together it's always a learning session for everyone, and it's fun to see old friends, and get to know new ones, and swap stories. Being on a list like this comes close. Ain't modern technology cool ? Sunday brought with it perfect flying weather...severe clear and calm winds. During the afternoon and evening, I spent my first hour in the busy pattern doing take-off's & landings. I'm getting my short field take-off's down. As I smoothly apply full power, I hold a lot of forward pressure on the stick, and I can actually feel the weight of the tail with the stick, as the tail comes up. Dancing on the rudder to keep 'er straight, and maybe a little aileron if the one of the wings dip (bunji's are still a little loose). Slowly ease off the forward pressure as she comes up through 20 to 30 mph, to where it's almost neutral pressure on the stick. Ease in some back pressure on the stick, as she tippee toes a couple of times, and we're off !! This all happens in about ten seconds...Way Cool !! Landings are a different story. I usually drag it in, with a long final approach, however, today I began practicing slipping it in on final, so I can maintain some altitude on base. On downwind abeam the touchdown point, I'm usually about 500 agl (or less), I pull power to 1500 rpm, base is about 1400 rpm, and on short final I just can't trust my idle with a nose down attitude, so I have to leave a little power in, crossing the fence at 50 to 40 mph, and maybe 40 feet agl, round out maybe 5 or 10 feet agl, and get into the nose up for the flair, before I pull 'er all the way off to idle. One of the landings I did today touched tail first...never did that before !! I enjoy the challenge of a nice landing, and the smile it brings...I smiled a couple of times today !! Landed, re-fueled, took off and did a lap around El Dorado lake (brought the camera with me), did a couple of fly bys at El Dorardo airport, and zig zagged my way across the beautiful countryside back to Benton, looking down at the rest of the world, for another 1.3 hrs in the air. YEEE HAAAAWW !!!! Landed, re-fueled and took off with a fellow in an ultra light, for some air to air photo shots. Three flights on a beautiful Sunday afternoon !! Doug Bryant used to give me his enthusiastic description of what it's like to fly a Pietenpol. I thought I understood him...I didn't. Words spoken, or written just simply can't describe it. Ya gotta experience it. It's different from flying any other airplane. Naturally the physics are the same, but flying something you built, adds a psycho factor. All you folks out there building, cutting, gluing, welding, making boo boo's, doing it over till it's right, will be rewarded ten fold. Hang in there, and keep plugging away, and you will get there...just don't give up. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG "Pietenpols Forever" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair College
Date: Oct 14, 2002
Hello, folks; Sorry if some of you get duplicates of this post; I'm sending it to several lists to get some feedback. We are trying to set up a "Corvair College" with William Wynne here in South Texas and I'm trying to get an idea of interest level. It doesn't look like it will be possible to get it happening in time for the previously-stated Oct. 26 weekend, so if it were held the weekend of Dec. 7 here in San Antonio how many would be interested in attending? No firm committments needed, just an idea. There is no charge for the College... just bring your engine, your parts, or just yourself- and learn. Also a good chance to meet other folks who are building or thinking of building, and to answer your questions about the Corvair. Spend as much or as little time as you want; the main activity will be Saturday. Please spare everybody else the clutter by replying directly to me offline, at taildrags(at)hotmail.com Thanks. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2002
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Corvair College
I could probably make it Oscar. -Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar > Zuniga > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:58 PM > To: corvaircraft(at)mailinglists.org > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College > > > > > Hello, folks; > > Sorry if some of you get duplicates of this post; I'm sending it > to several > lists to get some feedback. > > We are trying to set up a "Corvair College" with William Wynne > here in South > Texas and I'm trying to get an idea of interest level. It > doesn't look like > it will be possible to get it happening in time for the previously-stated > Oct. 26 weekend, so if it were held the weekend of Dec. 7 here in San > Antonio how many would be interested in attending? No firm committments > needed, just an idea. There is no charge for the College... just > bring your > engine, your parts, or just yourself- and learn. Also a good > chance to meet > other folks who are building or thinking of building, and to answer your > questions about the Corvair. Spend as much or as little time as > you want; > the main activity will be Saturday. > > Please spare everybody else the clutter by replying directly to > me offline, > at taildrags(at)hotmail.com > > Thanks. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: RE:Thomasville GA Fly-in
Date: Oct 15, 2002
Pieters, Here is a report on the fly-in held at Thomasville Ga this past weekend. The weather Saturday was great, planes were flying all day. Ted Brousseau came up in his Part-Piet GN1. Dick Navratril came down from Minn. in his Seneca. Bert Conoly, Don Hicks, Harry Hooper and I all came via ground transportation. Also another real friendly Piet builder came in from Florida, can't remember his name, sorry. Near as I could tell we all had a great time and talked allot of Pietenpol will into the night. Ted gave everyone a hop in his Piet, great! Thomasville bills itself as "An old-fashioned grass roots fly-in", I would have to agree and plan to be there next year. Skip ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: where to keep Weight and Balance form
Date: Oct 15, 2002
Getting all my stuff together for the big inspection, and wondering where everyone keeps the W&B form. Does everyone just fold up the paper and put it in an envelope? I was thinking of fastening it to the pack page of the aircraft log. so it would be attached but will fold out. Has anyone done this? walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 15, 2002
From: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
czech-list(at)matronics.com, europa-list(at)matronics.com, ez-list(at)matronics.com, glasair-list(at)matronics.com, homebuilt-list(at)matronics.com, kolb-list(at)matronics.com, kr-list(at)matronics.com, lancair-list(at)matronics.com, pelican-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com, piper-list(at)matronics.com, pitts-list(at)matronics.com, rocket-list(at)matronics.com, rv4-list(at)matronics.com, rv6-list(at)matronics.com, rv7-list(at)matronics.com, rv8-list(at)matronics.com, sonerai-list(at)matronics.com, tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, ultralight-list(at)matronics.com, warbird-list(at)matronics.com, yak-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: EAA Chapter 339 Fall Fly-In
EAA Chapter 339 Fall Fly-In Saturday, October 19, 2002, Hampton Roads Exec (PVG), Virginia, 9AM till 7PM Hampton Roads Exec (PVG) is 13.5nm SW of Norfolk, Virginia (253 radial (ORF) AWOS 118.375 CTAF 123.0 The weather will really be a perfect Virginia fall day! Aircraft parking is off taxiway between Rwy 23 and T-Hangars East of Airport Terminal Schedule of Events Fly-In Begins 9AM Food all Day 10AM - 3PM Poker Run (Walk Around Field) Project Visits on Field Aircraft Judging 11AM - 3PM, All Categories, Antiques, Classics, Homebuilts, Warbirds Social Hour 4PM Dinner 5PM - 7PM, BBQ Sandwiches, Chicken, Drinks Local motels/hotels are available For More Information Frank Toy 757-460-3680 ftoy(at)att.net Richard Reynolds 757-627-8743 rvreynolds(at)macs.net EAA Chapter 339 http://home.earthlink.net/~avyator/ Hampton Roads Exec Airport http://www.hamptonroadsexecutiveairport.com/index.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 15, 2002
Subject: Re: where to keep Weight and Balance form
Walt, Doesn't really matter where you put it as long as it is available if some nosey FAA burro might come along and try to impress someone. My DAR gave me 3 pages of instructions combining Phase I and Phase II. Phase I being the 25 hr test period and Phase II the limitations of experimental aircraft from there on. These regulating instructions must be in the aircraft when flown so I made a simple acetate folder and I included the W & B form with these instructions. I screwed the air worthiness certificate under a like size piece of lexon scrap to the ionside wall of rear cockpit with the metal ID plate and the Reg. certificate. Have over 5 hrs on 41CC as of tonight. Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Vne/redline
Date: Oct 15, 2002
Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; some days ago there were some posts about Vne for Piets. The 'high speed of 90 MPH' sounded more like a high *cruise* speed to me than a redline Vne for this design. I seemed to recall that William Wynne said his Piet cruised with the engine throttled well back, so I asked him about his redline. Here's a snip from his reply: >Vne on a Piet is a lot higher than 90. Our average to Oshkosh in 2000 was >86mph. It is very windy above 95, and it is twitchy above 105 when the CG >is >forward (15 to 17"). In Bernie's notes he mentions seeing 130. Obviously the Vne should be based on design, testing, and prudence. Equally obvious is the fact that it isn't fun or comfortable to fly the plane real fast, but for purposes of establishing a structural Vne, there are enough Piets flying out there to have a good knowledge base of what a reasonable redline must be. Don't overly limit your airplane's operating envelope! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 16, 2002
Subject: Re: where to keep Weight and Balance form
In a message dated 10/15/02 5:11:17 PM Central Daylight Time, wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: << wondering where everyone keeps the W&B form. Does everyone just fold up the paper and put it in an envelope? >> I keep mine in a heavy duty zip lock baggie, in one of the two map holders that are on each side of the cockpit, next to my knees. A triangle piece of 1/16" plywood make up the holder, leaving the bottom open so it doesn't collect dirt. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Started building
Date: Oct 16, 2002
Hi all, I've been thinking about building since I attended Brodhead in 97. I have had the plans for a couple years and even bought some Douglas fir about 2 years back. I attended Brodhead this year in hopes of getting a ride in a Piet before I started making sawdust, but was unable to talk anyone into a ride. Also attended Bill Reweys forum and William Wynnes forum at Oshkosh. Well, 6 weeks ago I finally started building and I'm having a ball. I am building out of Douglas fir bought locally in PA, and Marine plywood from Noah's Arks. To date I have the fuselage framed up, seats, turtle deck, top and side stringers installed. The stabilizer is built and I'm working on the elevators, landing gear, and fittings. I hope to pick up a Corvair motor this weekend. I have been watching this list server for a while and have cruised the archives. It's nice to have so much info available from all of you guys. Still need to get my single engine land license at some point. I have been flying gliders here in the PA ridges for the past 12 years. Some day I will get a home page together and post some pictures. Until then I'll stay in touch. Thank's again for all the good Piet info. Malcolm Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Started building
Date: Oct 16, 2002
Good to have you building a Piet, Malcolm. You've done a lot in 6 weeks. At that rate you'll have it flying in a year or so. I've been building mine for over 6 years and have it to the 90% complete, 90% to go stage. Good Luck, Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of morrisons5 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Started building Hi all, I've been thinking about building since I attended Brodhead in 97. I have had the plans for a couple years and even bought some Douglas fir about 2 years back. I attended Brodhead this year in hopes of getting a ride in a Piet before I started making sawdust, but was unable to talk anyone into a ride. Also attended Bill Reweys forum and William Wynnes forum at Oshkosh. Well, 6 weeks ago I finally started building and I'm having a ball. I am building out of Douglas fir bought locally in PA, and Marine plywood from Noah's Arks. To date I have the fuselage framed up, seats, turtle deck, top and side stringers installed. The stabilizer is built and I'm working on the elevators, landing gear, and fittings. I hope to pick up a Corvair motor this weekend. I have been watching this list server for a while and have cruised the archives. It's nice to have so much info available from all of you guys. Still need to get my single engine land license at some point. I have been! flying gliders here in the PA ridges for the past 12 years. Some day I will get a home page together and post some pictures. Until then I'll stay in touch. Thank's again for all the good Piet info. Malcolm Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Cowling Patterns
Date: Oct 16, 2002
Hi Pieters, Just a quick tip to pass on. I'm in the process of making my engine cowling, making paper patterns first before cutting expensive aluminum. After struggling with flimsy posterboard (which comes in too small a sheet anyway) I discovered the ideal pattern material: Matte Board. That's the stuff they use in those expensive picture frame shops to make the colored matting between the picture and the frame. Matte board is about .050" thick and has just about the same stiffness as .025" aluminum, so it behaves about the same. It is easily cut with a boxcutter knife or a bandsaw and once formed to shape and taped in place it is pretty durable. It is not so easily dented as posterboard is. Its only drawback is its price. I bought 5 sheets of 32" x 40" matte board for $6 per sheet and that was enough to make my cowling patterns. Yeah, I know, $30 is a lot to spend on something you'll just throw away, but to me it was worth it for the reduced aggravation compared with posterboard. Just thought I'd pass it on. Jack ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: handy site
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Here's a handy site to view all the FAA regs. The top section, # 1-199 is for FAA. If this link doesn't go thru, I'll resend in pieces. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14tab_00.html walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: Keep your fingers crossed
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Just got off the phone with my DAR. Said he would call tomorrow pm to confirm if he can inspect this weekend. Whew! It's finally here walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Subject: Re: Keep your fingers crossed
Boy, do I know how you feel. Hope you get a little sleep tonight. Don't hurry, don't worry, you've done your best so to hell with the rest. Corky in La watching Edwin the test pilot have all the fun. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Keep your fingers crossed
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Way to go, Walt!! Only someone who has done this can possibly know how much has gone into it. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed Just got off the phone with my DAR. Said he would call tomorrow pm to confirm if he can inspect this weekend. Whew! It's finally here walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Keep your fingers crossed
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Corky, Thanks for the good words!!! Don't worry, the sport thing is right around the corner! walt N140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed > > Boy, do I know how you feel. Hope you get a little sleep tonight. Don't > hurry, don't worry, you've done your best so to hell with the rest. > Corky in La watching Edwin the test pilot have all the fun. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Keep your fingers crossed
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Thanks, Jack, I'll let everyone know what happens. walt N140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed > > Way to go, Walt!! > > Only someone who has done this can possibly know how much has gone into it. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter > evans > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 7:02 PM > To: piet discussion; Fishnet > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed > > > > Just got off the phone with my DAR. Said he would call tomorrow pm to > confirm if he can inspect this weekend. > Whew! It's finally here > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 17, 2002
Subject: Re: Keep your fingers crossed
Walt, I forgot to mention that Isabelle made me take a couple of be nice pills the day of the DAR. It worked Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
From: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Dear Low and Slows, A sad day.....ZERO messages today in the Piet Digest. I guess we have said all there is to say about Pietenpols and all of us who are building know everything we have to know to complete our projects.........NOT!!!!! The digest has not contained much about building techniques the past couple of weeks. I propose that we each write something in the next two weeks about the process we used in making part of a Pietenpol. I am working on metal fittings and would like to see a description of the procedure--from cutting and bending to final installation on the airframe. The correct procedure in making any part may seem simple to you, but is a mystery to someone who has never done it and wants to do it correctly. I bet we can even get some good arguments started!!! Another suggestion: It would make reading the digest a lot easier if the message we respond to is not included in our reply.....unless of course it is necessary for understanding of the reply. Thank you, (and please help this plodding builder complete his project.), Dick Hartwig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Oct 19, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
Lets see.....Metal fittings,,what I learned the hard way. I tryed about every method of cutting. I now use an old table saw with one of those metal cutting composite cutters like they use on masonry at home and a band saw at work for more intricate stuff. I've heard it said that the composite blades create too much heat, just let it cool slowly. ACS will custom cut strips not listed in their catologe for a cutting fee. Always bend 4130 across the grain with a radious. Bingelis lists the radiouses (sp? ) I bend in a vice with the metal between two pieces of angle iron with the corners ground to the radious desired. Square the work piece to the angle iron before bending and use a block of wood between the hammer and the piece. Buy the good drill bits and always start with a center punch and a pilot hole. I usually pilot with an 1/8" drill. Scrutinize the plans before drilling holes in fittings. For instance only two of the 8 tailwire tangs are drilled as shown in the plans. They say not to braze 4130. Now the thing that gave me the biggest fit. aligning the bolt holes perfectly on a steel wood steel sandwich, School of hard knocks here. And I'm sure there are other maybe better ways to do it ( I'm leaving myself wide open here). I drill the holes in one fitting only. Then using the fitting as a guide I drill shallow pilot holes in the wood. next useing a 12" long drill bit from Home Depot and a 6" combination square I drill the holes in the wood as square as posible. Then I clamp the blank metal fitting to the other side exactly where i want it. then using a drill bit the same size as the holes I drill just enough to put a mark on the inside of the blank fitting being careful not to enlarge the holes in the wood. then take the blank off and drill the holes on the marks. Viola a perfect alignment every time. Hope you can follow all that.This is assuming of course that you can't get the whole mess in the drill press. There are much more experienced builders on the list who may take this kind of stuff for granted but I struggled with it in the beinning so maybe it will help those who are where I was 2 1/2 years ago. Ed Grentzer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
-0500
Date: Oct 19, 2002
Ed, the plural of radius is radii. But nice try. The best way to drill holes if you have a drill press is to use the Black & Decker Bullet Bits. They cut like a flycutter or an end mill and you can get them in increments of 1/64 for excellent hole to shank clearance. They also cut a true hole whereas the old drill bit will always cut out of round. Go to Home Depot (unless you live in Washington D.C.), get one, and try one. You will love them. chris >Always bend 4130 across the grain with a radious. Bingelis lists the radiouses (sp? ) > I usually pilot with an 1/8" drill. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Oct 19, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
Oh yeah Radii Duh Guess it's been a long time since I took Geometry. Thanks for the tip on the Bullet bits. I've never heard of them but I'll give them a try. Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chad and Susan Johnson" <chadnsue(at)earthlink.net>
Subject:
Date: Oct 19, 2002
hello..all...keyboard..is..still..messed..up......Stopped..in..and..took..a. .look at..Chuck..Gs...piet..yesterday....Very..nice....looks..like..allot..of..fun ....building. and..flying.. ......someday............ chad. --- Susan Johnson --- chadnsue(at)earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
-0500
Date: Oct 19, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - > Hi Everyone: Wicks Aircraft will shear the metal to the size strip you need, and they have never charged me a fee. They had a guage conversion chart in their yellow catalog about 2 yrs ago also. They sell the 4130 in 9" X 9" as the smallest up to 4' X 8' sheets. They also cut the wood shapes for the tail of the Pietenpol for no extra charge! Just photocopy the plans where the shapes are and send it to them with the amount and the cost is the same as the raw stock of the material. I don't work for them, but I live about 25 miles from them and just drive over when I need something. Not an employee or anything, they just have absolutely superior service! Unbeatable! Dennis Engelkenjohn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
> >Lets see.....Metal fittings,,what I learned the hard way. I tryed about >every method of cutting. I now use an old table saw with one of those >metal cutting composite cutters like they use on masonry at home and a >band saw at work for more intricate stuff. I've heard it said that the >composite blades create too much heat, just let it cool slowly. >ACS will custom cut strips not listed in their catologe for a cutting >fee. >Always bend 4130 across the grain with a radious. Bingelis lists the >radiouses (sp? ) >I bend in a vice with the metal between two pieces of angle iron with >the corners ground to the radious desired. Square the work piece to the >angle iron before bending and use a block of wood between the hammer and >the piece. Buy the good drill bits and always start with a center punch >and a pilot hole. > I usually pilot with an 1/8" drill. Scrutinize the plans before >drilling holes in fittings. For instance only two of the 8 tailwire >tangs are drilled as shown in the >plans. They say not to braze 4130. Now the thing that gave me the >biggest fit. aligning the bolt holes perfectly on a steel wood steel >sandwich, School of hard knocks here. And I'm sure there are other maybe >better ways to do it ( I'm leaving myself wide open here). I drill the >holes in one fitting only. Then using the fitting as a guide I drill >shallow pilot holes in the wood. next useing a 12" long drill bit >from Home Depot and a 6" combination square I drill the holes in the >wood as square as posible. Then I clamp the blank metal fitting to the >other side exactly where i want it. then using a drill bit the same >size as the holes I drill just enough to put a mark on the inside of the >blank fitting being careful not to enlarge the holes in the wood. then >take the blank off and drill the holes on the marks. Viola a perfect >alignment every time. Hope you can follow all that.This is assuming of >course that you can't get the whole mess in the drill press. There are >much more experienced builders on the list who may take this kind of >stuff for granted but I struggled with it in the beinning so maybe it >will help those who are where I was > 2 1/2 years ago. > Ed Grentzer Ed, Dick & Chris, Ed's method is pretty much the same method I've been working out over the past month or so - works pretty well. Trying to make fittings with all the holes pre-drilled doesn't work so well! To keep the holes through the wood lined up, I make a shallow pilot hole in the wood with my 'frontside' metal fitting clamped in place, then I take it off & clamp on a 1-2" thick piece of hardwood with the proper size hole drilled in it & use that to keep my drill bit properly aligned. Then I clamp the fitting back on & dimple the 'backside' piece with my drill the way Ed describes. Then it comes off & goes on the drill press. Time consuming, but everything stays lined up. I do all my bending as described in Bengilis' books & some articles on making fittings that I downloaded from the member's section of the EAA web site. I got a couple of pieces of scrap 3/4" steel from the local junk yard & a friend is helping me mill them into bending blocks with radiused edges. I'm using either 1/8" or 3/16" radiuses, depending on my steel thickness & location in the plane. My EAA tech advisor preferes big radii if the application allows it, but some places you just have to go with the tightest radius allowable. I started out by filing a radius in one of my vise jaws. Works OK, but I get a little bit of embossing in the metal from the jaw. That's why I'm switching to a bend block. Angle iron sounds like a nice quick way to make up a block. Never heard of the 'bullet bits' Chris B. recommends - I've been under-drilling my holes by 1/32 and reaming them to size. Another suggestion I'd make is get a cross-slide vise for your drill press. It allows you to line up your bit to your center-punch mark really easily. Plus, you can drill multiple holes without a lot of screwing around repositioning your vise. I got a table-top drill press, full set of titanium bits, cross-slide vise and 3/4hp grinding wheel from Harbor Freight Tools (all Chinese stuff, but adequate for what I'm doing) for about $130.00. I got a really good Stanley reamer from a local hardware store. Cost about $20, but makes really smooth holes. The cross-slide vise needed a little 'tuning up' before I was happy with how it worked. Also, my local surplus store sells drill bits by the pound, so I stocked up on the more common sizes & don't have to worry about dull bits. Dick, one other piece of advice I got from my Tech Advisor. Make a simple fitting - like one of the Rudder/Stabilizer fittings, and then put it in a vise & try to break it by bending it back & forth at your orginal bend line. If you can't break it easily (I bent mine back & forth about 6 times & it never broke) you can be reasonably sure that your bending technique is good & that you are in fact making good fittings. Have fun with your fittings Dick! Cheers! Kip Gardner (whose next metal-working challenge is to learn how to make decent welds!) 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 19, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
I hate to see no messages on the net! The Fuse is nearly done: I was going to build a glove-box back of the rear seat ala Mike Cuy, but had only one piece of plywood to do it with. But I needed a bulkhead at the rear so things would not fall through, so I cut my only remaining plywood, and it was in the wrong direction. Oh Woe. I'm looking for a scale to weigh the Fuse, it is almost ready; the turtledeck is there but not glued. I'll post the weight as soon as I can. I've used Fir and Basswood exclusively, so it will be interesting to compare with your Spruce weights. I made up an Elevator Horn, just for check out. It seems to me that it would be a lot better to make up a U-channel and weld it into the horn, rather than trying to fold out the metal as shown in the plans. The U-channel could provide a weather-tight fitting which would not allow water to accummulate at the bottom of the Horn. Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, Los Angeles, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 19, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02
Carl, Failed to mention that I bought a lugged lock from a juke -pin ball operator and installed it on the seat back at the top. I can lock the entire back with the box. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: DAR inspection results
Date: Oct 20, 2002
All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make. Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not the knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still have 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to the stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls. The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted them sleeved. and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board. Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate. Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go. Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave him a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out. Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon Scott and Bob) I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done. I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, if it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it. thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input walt NX140DL (north N.J.) PS really won't be long now ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: DAR inspection results
Date: Oct 20, 2002
Congrats Walt, I know your a happy guy. Hopefully, I'm about a month behind ya. BTW, about how long did the inspection take? Also, what paperwork do you have to finish? Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results > > All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make. > Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not the knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still have 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to the stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls. > The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted them sleeved. > and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board. > Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate. > Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go. > Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave him a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out. > Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon Scott and Bob) > I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done. > I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, if it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it. > thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > PS really won't be long now > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: DAR inspection results
Date: Oct 20, 2002
Let us know how the Nx thing goes. "Knows his stuff" yet did not know this? chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make. Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not the knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still have 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to the stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls. The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted them sleeved. and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board. Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate. Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go. Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave him a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out. Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon Scott and Bob) I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done. I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, if it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it. thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input walt NX140DL (north N.J.) PS really won't be long now ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair
Date: Oct 20, 2002
Okay, here's my two cents on what I did over the weekend. Joined the "knuckle buster" club by de-flashing and cleaning up my Corvair's heads in preparation to a valve job. The head castings are quite rough on the Corvair engine and a few of the fins were bent on mine, so I took drill, files, Dremel, and anything else I had that was abrasive and sat down with some music and a couple of hours and cleaned 'em up. Still need to chase all the threads on tapped holes and studs, and finish the last of the minor degreasing and cleanup, then it's off to the machine shop for a valve job. The air passages between the fins are amazingly rough as they come from the factory, and cleaning things up makes the heads much more appealing. Of course, a guy can take it to extremes... as Pat Panzera has done on his showpiece Corvair (the "poster child" engine at http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIRCRAFT/Completed_145.html). Pat likes to be able to see his reflection in everything he looks at under the cowling ;o) PS- I've had a set of the "Bullet Bits" that Chris refers to, for at least 10 years. They are great; they are much less prone to skipping and walking, and do a nice job. PPS- I'm on the digest of this list, and far prefer it to continuous posts. "To each his own", eh? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: DAR inspection results
Date: Oct 20, 2002
Yeah, like I said , he's a regular guy. remember he's not FAA. Just a guy with alot of experience, who's flown alot of planes, who flies formula V racers ( VW powered to 180 mph) who got offered the job. Heard horror stories of inspecters who wouldn't let the plane fly without the "experimental". but he was good enough to say that he had never heard of it, but he will check. Lucky I had a copy of the reg with me that he wanted to take to check with the FAA. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results > > Let us know how the Nx thing goes. "Knows his stuff" yet did not know this? > > chris bobka > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter > evans > To: piet discussion; Fishnet > Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results > > > > > All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he > needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my > paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make. > Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not the > knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still have > 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to the > stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls. > The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted > them sleeved. > and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board. > Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and > give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate. > Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go. > Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave him > a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out. > Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff > into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon > Scott and Bob) > I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done. > I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, if > it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it. > thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > PS really won't be long now > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: DAR inspection results
Date: Oct 20, 2002
Carl, The walk around and inspection took about 45 min to an hour. Then we started the paperwork, which we finished at the diner ( cafe for you non NJ folks) I have to finish a number of forms ( if you need details , I can give you the form #'s tomorrow) When he comes back need,,,,,\ copy of my picture ID copy of my W&B copy of my registration form folled out that confirms that I indeed built it( forget the name) I'll get the forms that allows me to get my repairmans cirt. carl, my head is spiraling down now from today,,,If you want the exact forms, I'll be glad to post them, but right now there in a packet. Let me know, and I'll be glad to send you the names, if you like. Let me know! walt NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results > > Congrats Walt, I know your a happy guy. Hopefully, I'm about a month behind > ya. BTW, about how long did the > inspection take? Also, what paperwork do you have to finish? > Carl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> > To: "piet discussion" ; "Fishnet" > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results > > > > > > > All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he > needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my > paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make. > > Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not > the knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still > have 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go > to the stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls. > > The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted > them sleeved. > > and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board. > > Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and > give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate. > > Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go. > > Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave > him a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out. > > Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff > into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon > Scott and Bob) > > I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done. > > I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, > if it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it. > > thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input > > walt > > NX140DL > > (north N.J.) > > PS really won't be long now > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
"John Greenlee" , "Lou Larson" , "Michael Madrid" , "Michael D Cuy" , "Skip Gadd" , "Steve Eldredge" , "Donny Emch" , "Pietenpol-List Digest Server"
Subject: Piet update
Date: Oct 20, 2002
Friends- Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it is. I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3 diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one constant are interpreted differently. The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based on another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more like 48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are willing to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity like I did. Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the climb and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich. Sounds like a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees cooler than when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on performance until I can duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course by that time I should have a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help, too. I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, it gets me back into the sky! Larry ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while flying (trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for the pilot. My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what effect that has. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Piet update
Date: Oct 21, 2002
Larry, I there anything special about this Hegy prop like the shape? Could you send a picture of either the busted up one or the new one? I might want to duplicate the busted up one as well... chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of LAWRENCE WILLIAMS Cuy; Skip Gadd; Steve Eldredge; Donny Emch; Pietenpol-List Digest Server Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet update Friends- Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it is. I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3 diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one constant are interpreted differently. The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based on another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more like 48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are willing to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity like I did. Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the climb and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich. Sounds like a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees cooler than when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on performance until I can duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course by that time I should have a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help, too. I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, it gets me back into the sky! Larry ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while flying (trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for the pilot. My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what effect that has. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: airworthiness inspection
Date: Oct 21, 2002
G'day, low 'n' slow fliers; One other thing I've heard that inspectors want in the paperwork (sometimes) is a 3-view of the airplane, along with the weight and balance. Can any of you recent airworthiness guys (Corky, Walt) verify this, or is it just folklore? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs
- 10/18/
Date: Oct 21, 2002
I had the same problem until I finally figured out the tool that one of the local EAA'ers was trying to describe. Imagine a C-clamp body with the screw removed and a hole drilled all the way from the threaded part through the seat on the bottom. Any two rods placed in these holes have to be aligned. Match drill the metal fittings, then sandwich the fittings over the spar (or whatever), then place the C-fixture over the sandwich. Use a proper size bolt to align one end of the C-fixture with the hole in one side of the fitting, then drill through the other. Your drill will eventually push the bolt out of the other side and the hole will be aligned perfectly. I've probably welded up half a dozen of these devices in various sizes and shapes. I used square tubing from Home Depot for the body, and a piece of structural tubing for the drill bushing. Cut the center part out after welding to ensure that it stays aligned. But come to think of it, you probably could make one out of a C-clamp... Gene Hubbard in San Diego, working on engine controls and trying to figure out how to make a cub-style cowling. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Engelkenjohn [mailto:wingding(at)usmo.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - > Hi Everyone: Wicks Aircraft will shear the metal to the size strip you need, and they have never charged me a fee. They had a guage conversion chart in their yellow catalog about 2 yrs ago also. They sell the 4130 in 9" X 9" as the smallest up to 4' X 8' sheets. They also cut the wood shapes for the tail of the Pietenpol for no extra charge! Just photocopy the plans where the shapes are and send it to them with the amount and the cost is the same as the raw stock of the material. I don't work for them, but I live about 25 miles from them and just drive over when I need something. Not an employee or anything, they just have absolutely superior service! Unbeatable! Dennis Engelkenjohn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: airworthiness inspection
Date: Oct 21, 2002
Oscar, Yes I do need that, glad you reminded me. My head is still spinning from yesterdays inspection. When my DAR returns in a few days, he needs that plus all the other stuff I have to fill out. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: airworthiness inspection > > G'day, low 'n' slow fliers; > > One other thing I've heard that inspectors want in the paperwork (sometimes) > is a 3-view of the airplane, along with the weight and balance. Can any of > you recent airworthiness guys (Corky, Walt) verify this, or is it just > folklore? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Piet update
"John Greenlee" , "Lou Larson" , "Michael Madrid" , "Michael D Cuy" , "Skip Gadd" , "Steve Eldredge" , "Donny Emch" , "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" > >Friends- > >Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it is. > >I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red >Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch >comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building >and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to >arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3 >diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one >constant are interpreted differently. >The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a >lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my >Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based >on another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more >like 48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are >willing to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity >like I did. >Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the >climb and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich. >Sounds like a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees >cooler than when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on >performance until I can duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course >by that time I should have a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help, >too. >I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any >worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is >home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, >it gets me back into the sky! > >Larry > >ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while >flying (trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for >the pilot. My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what >effect that has. Larry, What text, etc. did you use for instruction on prop carving? I just 'inherited' a prop blank from the family of Norris Keeling. Norris was building an 'A' powered Piet in Uniontown, OH. He used to post to this list, but was killed in a Piper Colt accident a few years back. His family contacted me a couple of months ago when one of my fellow EAA Chapter members mentioned to his widow that I was building a Piet. As it turned out, I wound up helping them find Norris' project a new home, a young couple in Alliance, OH who are going to build it together. They'll probably start posting to the list sometime. Anyway, Norris had laid up a prop blank, and apparently did it 'backwards', so he gave up & bought a Sterba prop. A 'backwards' prop is just what a Corvair needs, so Norris' son gave it to me. Now I have one more thing to do! BTW, Eugene's 'hole aligning tool' sounds pretty slick & makes perfect sense. I may try my hand at making up a few. P.S. - I did my 1st (tailwheel) landing yesterday, at the end of my 4th hour of instruction. My CFI says I'm 'over the hump'! Cheers! Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2002
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Piet update "John Greenlee"
, "Lou Larson" , "Michael Madrid" , "Michael D Cuy" , "Skip Gadd" , "Steve Eldredge" , "Donny Emch" , "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" >P.S. - I did my 1st (tailwheel) landing yesterday, at the end of my 4th >hour of instruction. My CFI says I'm 'over the hump'! Kip, After a while you even stop looking like a drunken sailor going down the runway. I haven't decided if it is going to be funny or scarey to watch Ben (kid that got the ride in Mike's Piet at Alliance) do that in my TCart next summer. I have got to find a decent tailwheel CFI for him. There aren't many left. Hint - never assume you are done flying until the ropes are on it. Mine has reminded me a couple of times that my feet had better get moving. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Drilling for Fittings,
This tool appeared in either Experimenter or Sport Av. a while back. It was welded out of a C clamp and tubing. I made up 2, a 1/8" and 3/16" out of copper pipe fittings, SS tube in 12" lengths from the hobby shop and epoxy putty. Putting the tube through the whole thing, puttying where it went through the two ends then cutting out an appropriate length gap when dry assured perfect alignment. I've mean't to put a picture up on mykitplane but never seemed to get around to it. So Eugene, why don't we both do pics to clear up the mud. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 > > I had the same problem until I finally figured out the tool that one of the > local EAA'ers was trying to describe. Imagine a C-clamp body with the screw > removed and a hole drilled all the way from the threaded part through the > seat on the bottom. Any two rods placed in these holes have to be aligned. > > Match drill the metal fittings, then sandwich the fittings over the spar (or > whatever), then place the C-fixture over the sandwich. Use a proper size > bolt to align one end of the C-fixture with the hole in one side of the > fitting, then drill through the other. Your drill will eventually push the > bolt out of the other side and the hole will be aligned perfectly. > > I've probably welded up half a dozen of these devices in various sizes and > shapes. I used square tubing from Home Depot for the body, and a piece of > structural tubing for the drill bushing. Cut the center part out after > welding to ensure that it stays aligned. But come to think of it, you > probably could make one out of a C-clamp... > > Gene Hubbard > in San Diego, working on engine controls and trying to figure out how to > make a cub-style cowling. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Engelkenjohn [mailto:wingding(at)usmo.com] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - > > > > > Hi Everyone: > > Wicks Aircraft will shear the metal to the size strip you need, and > they have never charged me a fee. They had a guage conversion chart in their > yellow catalog about 2 yrs ago also. They sell the 4130 in 9" X 9" as the > smallest up to 4' X 8' sheets. > They also cut the wood shapes for the tail of the Pietenpol for no > extra charge! Just photocopy the plans where the shapes are and send it to > them with the amount and the cost is the same as the raw stock of the > material. > I don't work for them, but I live about 25 miles from them and just > drive over when I need something. Not an employee or anything, they just > have absolutely superior service! Unbeatable! > Dennis Engelkenjohn > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List
> >This tool appeared in either Experimenter or Sport >Av. a while back. It was welded out of a C clamp >and tubing. I made up 2, a 1/8" and 3/16" out of >copper pipe fittings, SS tube in 12" lengths from >the hobby shop and epoxy putty. Putting the tube >through the whole thing, puttying where it went through >the two ends then cutting out an appropriate length >gap when dry assured perfect alignment. I've >mean't to put a picture up on mykitplane but never >seemed to get around to it. So Eugene, why don't >we both do pics to clear up the mud. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Clif, Yes, please, a picture would be great! Dave, Thanks for the words of encouragement. Since I have, in fact, been a drunken sailor on an occasion or two (a month at sea will make you lose your normal sense of moderation when you get a 6-hr. shore visit!), yes, it wasn't the straightest landing in the world, it was a landing. I'm well aware how lucky I am to have a competent tailwheel instructor, I sure hope you find one for Ben; is he hooked on open cockpits after the ride with Mikey (sure did it for me!). Cheers! Kip Gardner (home with a sick 3-year old today - on her birthday, no less) 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Subject: Cessna 152 Gear on Pietenpol
Pieters, Has anyone ever tried using the Cessna landing gear box and legs on a Pietenpol. The rounds would be lighter than the flats of course and would have to be reversed. I would like to have some thoughts on this one before I begin laying out my fuse. Nathan Moss (Using another Pieter's computer) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna 152 Gear on Pietenpol
Date: Oct 22, 2002
I kicked the idea around of using spring aluminum gear like a Citabria. Cost was about the same as a Cub gear, but in the end I decided to use Cub gear. Didn't want to fiddle with re-engineering the attach points DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cessna 152 Gear on Pietenpol Pieters, Has anyone ever tried using the Cessna landing gear box and legs on a Pietenpol. The rounds would be lighter than the flats of course and would have to be reversed. I would like to have some thoughts on this one before I begin laying out my fuse. Nathan Moss (Using another Pieter's computer) = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 10/21/02
In a message dated 10/21/02 11:54:11 PM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, >> So I very carefully laid out my fittings and drilled them one at a time, then selected the pairs that best matched up. Then drilled the Fuse on the drill press, supporting the long overhang with an adjustable support. Now I'm busy cutting new fittings, without all the holes! My best work wasn't really good enough. So now I'm going to clamp and drill through the metal/wood/metal sandwich. Your C-clamp idea is a good one, Gene, and I'm going to try it. But I have yet to figure out how to drill and install the Strut/Landing gear fitting plate(s). Do you need to plane the bottom so that the plates really fit in? I mean to make the metal "bed" in the wood. But maybe some Bondo would actually be better? And the inner angle needs to be held/fastened while drilling through. I did modify the drilling pattern so that there would be room to install the nuts on the bolts on the inside. Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, Los Angeles, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 10/21/02
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Carl, I didn't try to let the plates into the bottom of the fuselage--my feeling was that there are enough lumps in the bottom as it is from the control mountings that a few more external fittings wouldn't look too much worse. Of course, you could do stringers on the bottom too--it's been done before. I didn't worry about fuselage curvature over the length of the fitting. I figured that with a thousand pounds or so of force from the bolts, there will be good contact between the wood and the mounting plate--the bolts will either flatten it out, or crush the plywood wood a bit, or something. This also means that the fittings won't be completely aligned with each other. Make this up when you mount the landing gear bushing, if you're using the design on the plans. I used cub-style gear, and only drilled one end of each mounting bracket. The other end will be match drilled through the gear. I drilled the outside fitting before welding, left the inside fitting blank for the time being. I held the fitting up to the side of the fuselage, and marked the hole positions by drilling through the fitting hole a bit into the fuselage. Just do the side at first--easier that way. I then used a cup bushing to drill through the fuselage side. This is a clear plastic cup with a drilled bolt screwed into it. You place it on a surface to define perpendicular. They're available at exhorbatant cost from places like USATCO or Brown Tools. They make holes that is visually perpendicular, but not quite accurate enough to line up a fitting. After I drilled the sides, I shot bolts through for alignment and repeated the process on the bottom, still without the inside brace. After all that, and with the outside fitting being held on by four bolts sticking into holes in the fuselage, I drafted a passerby in the hanger to hold the inside angle brace in position while I removed a bolt and marked the hole locations by drilling through the outside fitting and fuselage. After marking, I finished the hole in the drill press, and then pushed the bolt through the inside angle for alignment, and did another hole. Actually, I think I wound up marking two holes at a time. It was still lots of assembly / disassembly, but all of the holes came out connecting with something. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: question about fuel
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear " auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for this and that. The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad. Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi without a tuneup??? What IS the poop on this?? walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: question about fuel
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Walt, the alcohol in the auto gas is what messes up the rubber stuff. For what it's worth, citco ( at most locations) is alcohol free. The only other place with alc free fuel is meijers stores. You gotta check on the pumps, if it has alc, it has to say. Most of the guys I know that have A65s use 80 avfuel. Maybe some of the older grass strips in your area may carry it. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: question about fuel > > Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear " auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for this and that. > The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad. > Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi without a tuneup??? > What IS the poop on this?? > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: question about fuel
"Fishnet" > > >Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel >problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear " >auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too >much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for >this and that. >The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad. >Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past >100,000mi without a tuneup??? >What IS the poop on this?? >walt >NX140DL >(north N.J.) Walt, My CFI, who also owns the airport, flies his Taylorcraft (A-65) on 100LL and gripes about it, but it flies. 80 octane avgas is disappearing in this part of OH. I believe that there can be other additives in auto gas besides ethanol that may cause problems; it depends on how they have to formulate the gas to meet emissions standards in your neck of the woods. How much these other things may screw things up, I'm not sure. For what it's worth William Wynne recommends 100LL for the Corvair, but it's a different beast & was designed to run on high-octane auto gas that had lots more lead than 100LL does today. Cheers, Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest:
Date: Oct 22, 2002
You can go to http://www.eaa1067.org/images/jig.jpg and see a picture of one I made. You put the drill in from the right and place the bolt in the hole in the metal fitting on the left. When making the jig you drill out the left hole with the drill coming from the right. That makes the drill come out exactly where the hole is on the left. It pushes the bolt out of the way and you have a straight hole drilled from a hole in the fitting on one side to the hole in the fitting on the other. Hope this helps. Ted Brousseau You could also got to http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm and see some pics of the First Annual Intergalactic Pietenpol Association meeting held recently at the Thomasville GA fly-in. Did I spell that correctly Don? One of the pics at the bottom of the page is the drill jig. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List > > > > >This tool appeared in either Experimenter or Sport > >Av. a while back. It was welded out of a C clamp > >and tubing. I made up 2, a 1/8" and 3/16" out of > >copper pipe fittings, SS tube in 12" lengths from > >the hobby shop and epoxy putty. Putting the tube > >through the whole thing, puttying where it went through > >the two ends then cutting out an appropriate length > >gap when dry assured perfect alignment. I've > >mean't to put a picture up on mykitplane but never > >seemed to get around to it. So Eugene, why don't > >we both do pics to clear up the mud. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> > >To: > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 > > Clif, > > Yes, please, a picture would be great! > > > Dave, > > Thanks for the words of encouragement. Since I have, in fact, been a > drunken sailor on an occasion or two (a month at sea will make you lose > your normal sense of moderation when you get a 6-hr. shore visit!), yes, it > wasn't the straightest landing in the world, it was a landing. I'm well > aware how lucky I am to have a competent tailwheel instructor, I sure hope > you find one for Ben; is he hooked on open cockpits after the ride with > Mikey (sure did it for me!). > > Cheers! > > Kip Gardner (home with a sick 3-year old today - on her birthday, no less) > > 426 Schneider St. SE > North Canton, OH 44720 > (330) 494-1775 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Looking for Corvair
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I have concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine packed with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or rusted soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting rods are caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the heads. So, I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an engine. I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any other ideas where to look? Thanks Malcolm Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: question about fuel
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Hi Walt, Hopefully Chris Bobka will weigh in on this one, but I'll give my two cents worth. The other respondents are correct - it is primarily the alcohol in autogas that causes the problem. Whether or not you will have a problem depends on the components in your fuel system - it shouldn't hurt the engine itself (the A65 was designed to run on 73 Octane, and in the late 30's when it was designed, avgas hadn't been invented yet). The usual problem is the needle valve in the carburetor. The original design used a neoprene tip that made a nice effective seal against the brass valve seat. However, the neoprene tip is attacked by alcohol and tends to swell and distort, and eventually partially dissolve. I had a J-3 Cub with an A-65 back in the late 70's and early 80's and ran autogas in it for about a year and then noticed the engine running way too rich, with a definite loss in power. I investigated the problem and found the needle valve in very bad shape. I replaced it (with another neoprene tipped valve) and switched to 100LL (80/87 wasn't available in that area) and the problem went away. Now new needle valves are available made from stainless steel, with no neoprene tip. I put one in my Pietenpol when I overhauled the carburetor, but when I tested it to set float level I found that it leaked like a sieve. Stainless steel just doesn't seal well against brass. I eventually lapped in the needle valve by smearing Crest toothpaste (which has a mild abrasive in it) on the needle, chucking it in my drill press and spinning it fairly slowly while I pressed the brass seat hard against the sealing surface. The toothpaste did an excellent job as a lapping compound and when I reinstalled the valve and seat in the carb it didn't leak a drop. I still intend to run 100LL in the Piet - just put the stainless needle valve in just in case I'm stuck somewhere and have to use car gas. Some gascolators and selector valves also use neoprene seals and can be made leaky by using autogas. Incidentally, while I've heard of the use of 100LL causing lead deposits on the spark plugs, I never saw it on that J-3, nor on the Cessna 140 (C85 Continental) that I owned up until this past April. Your mileage may vary. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: question about fuel Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear " auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for this and that. The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad. Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi without a tuneup??? What IS the poop on this?? walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Corvair
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Hold on there! not so fast!!! Chances are the case is perfect... the heads are probably fine too... just EZ out the plugs and have the heads done at a head shop. Typically it's the case and heads that really count anyway... all the rest pretty much gets replaced. Are you on the Corvair email list?? If not you oughta join! Lots of friendly guys who really know their Corvairs. I'm about 60% done with my Corvair rebuild. Coming along nicely! DJ Vegh N74DV www.raptoronline.com ----- Original Message ----- From: morrisons5 <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Corvair > > Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I have concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine packed with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or rusted soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting rods are caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the heads. So, I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an engine. I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any other ideas where to look? > > Thanks > Malcolm Morrison > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: question about fuel
Date: Oct 21, 2002
Walt The auto gas problem in the USA may be different than here in Canada but here goes: The 80/87 is the octane rating. Octane is a measurement of the rate at which the fuel burns. 100 or 110LL are higher in number and actually burn slower, therefore less prone to detonation knocking. The Av gasoline's still contain tetraethyl lead as an additive to slow combustion and as a side benefit the lead coats the valves with lead oxide. The oxide prevents the valves from sticking to the seats and tearing microscopic molecules of metal away from the seats as the engine runs. The lead oxide is what gives exhaust stacks of aircraft that light gray colour. It is also poisoning our brain cells....!!!??? Too much lead as in 110LL tends to build up on the plugs of low compression ratio engines such as our beloved A65. Aggressive leaning will keep the plug hotter reducing the problem a bit. Auto gas is not controlled as closely, as to exact content of the blend, and tends to be more volatile than av gas. This can lead to vapour lock which is why the fed man gets so upset about us using it. The auto gas does also have a tendency to harm the rubber parts in older systems. The easy fix on non certified machines is a change to neoprene. One more point. Av gas does not go "sour" as quickly as auto gas. If you are putting your aircraft, using auto gas, in storage. Drain the auto gas and run it up, and out, of fuel on avgas. This will prevent gummy deposits from forming in your fuel system. The other alternative is to add a fuel stabilizer. Back to the valve seat issue: If you decide to run a lot of auto gas through your engine, check for valve seat wear. They can wear out fast enough to use up all your lifter travel. When the valve operates with no clearance wear drastically increases. Bottom line for me is I prefer to take the lead fouling and higher price of AV gas for the peace of mind rather than the carb gumming, vapour lock (unlikely at our altitudes) and system incompatibility of the auto gas. Fly safe! John P.S. Congrats on completing your Piet Walt. Wish I wasn't so busy and could make the same progress on mine. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: question about fuel Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear " auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for this and that. The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad. Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi without a tuneup??? What IS the poop on this?? walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: question about fuel
Some time back there was a discussion on fuels with quite a lot of good info. Also, I came across an excellent article on fuel entitled " Gas Tech, the real facts about octane " in Hemmings Rods and Performance-March 02 There's a good paragraph on avgas. The article covers just about anything you want to know about fuel. I just checked their website-no back issue articles evident. ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> > > Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel problems. Now that I'm > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: Looking for Corvair
Date: Oct 23, 2002
10/23/2002 07:42:42 AM Malcolm: Go back to the CORSA web site and find the local chapter in your area, these guys will be a great resource in finding a good rebuildable core in your area. That is how I got mine. Good Luck! John Duprey "morrisons5" (at)matronics.com on 10/22/2002 10:32:24 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Corvair Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I have concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine packed with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or rusted soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting rods are caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the heads. So, I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an engine. I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any other ideas where to look? Thanks Malcolm Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair "junk"
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Malcolm wrote: >After some disassembly I have concluded that it is junk. Malcolm, I agree with DJ... don't junk it just yet! If you look at some of the CorvAIRCRAFT builders' sites at their "before" and "after" pictures, you'll see that you have plenty of things that are salvageable and usable, more than likely. Some of the castings like the front cover (bellhousing) and heads are almost certainly salvageable. The case is the main thing you need to look at, and once it's stripped down it can be checked to see if the cam bearing bores are within spec. Since the Corvair cam doesn't use bearing inserts, once the bores are out of spec the case is junk, but it's rare to find one that badly worn. The rest can usually be cleaned up and used as a good starting point. The oil pump end of the engine is generally not interchangeable between blocks, so don't try to salvage just that piece if the block is out of spec. But I'm with DJ... hold onto your horses there! The cylinders get exchanged for a rebored set anyway, so be careful when removing the old pistons (which are probably corroded solid into the bores). Soaking overnight in WD40 or Liquid Wrench or something, then tapping the pistons free with a block of wood, does it. Cylinders with broken fins aren't as easily returned for cores. The rods can be cut off and thrown away and the crank can be replaced if it's junk, but by all means try to salvage your heads and cases. I saw some rebuilt heads at the machine shop that had basically sat full of water (in the chambers) for 20 years. Pitted, corroded, ugly- but they are cleanable! However, as in all things, there comes a point when it makes more sense to find something else. As Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations". Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair "junk"
Date: Oct 23, 2002
For an idea of how cruddy some of these engines may look coming out of a junker, take a look at Mark Langford's, at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/engine_disassy.html Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly
Group----If there is anyone else besides Jack P. on this list who are or planning of making their brake system similar to mine, beware that I had a problem recently and that you should take measures to insure your system performs better. See photos of system here. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov.12.11.2001/ What happened is that after about 280 hours of flying the anti-torque tubes broke off where they are welded to the bottom of the axle. I believe that several factors contributed to this. 1) I should have used thicker wall tubing for these parts. 2) My tolerance between the "pin/tube" and the "collar" or tube sliding thru a tube were too sloppy. 3) every time you apply the brakes, the axle wants to rotate forward under the bungee wraps. This is normal and is exactly what the anti-torque system is designed to stop. (along with keeping your axel from moving left to right under the bungees when you make turns, etc.) This slight rocking or rotating slightly forward of the axle puts a flex load on those tube-in-tube, anti-torque pins and bends them slightly. After thousands of applications of the brakes this rocking, flexing, and bending created enough slop so that the axle actually would rotate forward about 3/4" when I would apply the brakes and thus make my brake cables too short and applying more and more brake the more the axle rotated forward. I was wondering why my brakes were actually becoming increasingly more effective ! Ha ! Big dummy didn't figure it out in time so one day about 2 weeks ago while doing a run up the brakes wouldn't release and more power bent/sheard the anti-torque tubes right off. Make your tolerances tight and keep the pins greased. I think Carl Loar has a sketch of my system on his web site possibly if you can't envision the system from the pics. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Cabane survey
Date: Oct 23, 2002
For those of us lucky enough to have flying Piets I have a question, actually two 1. are most of the Piets out there using cabane struts of the length shown in the plans?? and 2.Does standard length give adequate room for average size, nimble people to get in and out of the front pit without too much whineing. I'm getting ready to order tubing. I'd rather not lengthen them because that would raise the center of drag which might aggrevate any tail heavy tendancys that Piets with light engines are famous for. I know some guys have lengthened them.I guess I just need to know if it's really necessary. All opinions respected of course. TIA Ed G. >From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: "Jim Kinsella" , "John Greenlee" >, "Lou Larson" , "Michael >Madrid" , "Michael D Cuy" >, "Skip Gadd" , "Steve >Eldredge" , "Donny Emch" , >"Pietenpol-List Digest Server" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet update >Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:08:38 -0400 > > >Friends- > >Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it >is. > >I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red >Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch >comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building >and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to >arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3 >diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one >constant are interpreted differently. >The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a >lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my >Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based >on another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more >like 48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are >willing to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity >like I did. >Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the >climb and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich. >Sounds like a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees >cooler than when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on performance >until I can duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course by that time >I should have a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help, too. >I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any >worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is >home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, it >gets me back into the sky! > >Larry > >ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while >flying (trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for the >pilot. My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what effect >that has. > > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Subject: Re: Cabane survey
Ed, I went 2" longer as ala Mike Cuy. I like the additional room and especially the vision. About the extra drag, don't even consider it as a Piet is a Piet and like most water vessels it has a definite hull speed and no matter what you do to it power or minimize drag you will probably still fly low and slow and have a ball. My next Piet, if you believe in that reincarnation stuff, I will use round tubes for all struts and streamline with balsa and dacron. Lindbergh did it that way why not Pieters Corky with 41CC and 9 hrs of test time behind it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Corvair
> >Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been >sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I >have concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine >packed with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or >rusted soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting >rods are caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the >heads. So, I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an >engine. I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I >also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find >one. Any other ideas where to look? > >Thanks >Malcolm Morrison Malcolm, Don't bother with the CORSA classifieds. Use the national CORSA web site to get the names & phone #'s of contacts for CORSA chapters within your region. Then e-mail or call these folks & tell them what you are looking for. There are always at least one or two guys in each chapter that have a small-to-large collection of engines & these contact folks will know who they are. I found a guy near Cleveland this way & he gave a really nice engine that will be perfect for rebuilding. Good luck, Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Corvair
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Malcolm, The others that say to try to save your engine may be right. However you need to be sure that you are saveing the right engine. Do you have William's book? If so is the case and heads the one that will give you a set of 9:1 heads and is the engine a 164 cubic inch engine? If you do not have William's book you need it. Check the case number located near the oil filler on the crankcase. The head codes are cast on the end of each head. If you do not have William's manual but plan to get it we can help you identify if you have the right parts. I have worked an an auto mechanic for more than 30 years and although I am the prowd owner of a Corvair engine I must say that I have not much experience with Corvair engines. I also have not worked on many engines that were rusted solid, most of the cars I work on are running cars or have been running recentally. But I am told by the guys who work in the machine shop that is part of the auto repair shop I work in that Coca Cola will sometimes free up a rust stuck engine. They say to pour some in the spark plug hole and tilt the engine so it covers the piston an inch or more deep, let it soak overnight. You have nothing to lose in my opinion but consult your lawyer or clergyman to be sure. Also, in your engine search try to find dumpy grease pit "junkyards" not well run computerised "Auto Parts Recyclers". Auto Recyclers never have anything 30 yeras old unless it is a Porsche or Corvette. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Allen" <GeorgeA(at)paonline.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Corvair
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Malcolm, find the local CORSA chapter. Their is one in Lancaster or Lebanon area.(PA) Might be Harrisburg. There is a place near York, PA that has a field full of cars and engines and he works on them. He's always at the Corvair shows in the area hawking is wares. When I find his card I'll let everyone know where he is exactly. Where are you located? George Allen Harrisburg, PA GeorgeA(at)PAonline.com (Peitenpol builder) ----- Original Message ----- From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any other ideas where to look? > > Thanks > Malcolm Morrison ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: thanks for responses to "question about fuel"
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Thanks for the responses. I also checked with an instructor near me who flies alot of hours in his planes. He's the guy who gave Harrison Ford his taildragger endorsement for his movie. We talked about alot of stuff, but what it boiled down to was..... As far as the auto gas melting critical rubber parts, he pointed to a Cessna L-19 out front that " had many, many hours on it with auto gas , and he looked at the carb needle personly and it wasn't distorted or soft, seemed to be fine. As far as the lead issue,,,,,he recommended to run about 3 loads of auto gas to one of 100LL, to get the best of both worlds. the two things he told me seem to make sense, so I'll start with that. He also said that Amoco reg is what he uses. And he puts alot of hours on alot of planes. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: piet pics
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Ted Thanks again for the ride in your Piet at Thomasville. It's given me a boost while I am mounting my wing to the fuse. The pics are great. Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly
Date: Oct 23, 2002
Hi Mike, Many thanks for the warning! I made my pins pretty thick (.058" wall) but I might see if I can make them thicker, and I'll watch the slop. Did they both break at once? I would think that would be better than only one breaking. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly Group----If there is anyone else besides Jack P. on this list who are or planning of making their brake system similar to mine, beware that I had a problem recently and that you should take measures to insure your system performs better. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly
Date: Oct 22, 2002
Thanks Mike! Will keep that in mind when I get back to my axle. John What happened is that after about 280 hours of flying the anti-torque tubes broke off where they are welded to the bottom of the axle. I believe that several factors contributed to this. 1) I should have used thicker wall tubing for these parts. 2) My tolerance between the "pin/tube" and the "collar" or tube sliding thru a tube were too sloppy. 3) every time you apply the brakes, the axle wants to rotate forward under the bungee wraps. This is normal and is exactly what the anti-torque system is designed to stop. (along with keeping your axel from moving left to right under the bungees when you make turns, etc.) This slight rocking or rotating slightly forward of the axle puts a flex load on those tube-in-tube, anti-torque pins and bends them slightly. After thousands of applications of the brakes this rocking, flexing, and bending created enough slop so that the axle actually would rotate forward about 3/4" when I would apply the brakes and thus make my brake cables too short and applying more and more brake the more the axle rotated forward. I was wondering why my brakes were actually becoming increasingly more effective ! Ha ! Big dummy didn't figure it out in time so one day about 2 weeks ago while doing a run up the brakes wouldn't release and more power bent/sheard the anti-torque tubes right off. Make your tolerances tight and keep the pins greased. I think Carl Loar has a sketch of my system on his web site possibly if you can't envision the system from the pics. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: drill guides
O K , Kip, I took pics after work and put them up on www.mykitplane.com . Go to picture album, then Clif, then pietenpol. Voila! they're at the bottom of the pile. Also there are some pics of my mockpit. I moved the throttle quad 9 times to finaly find the right location and also determined that I need the fuse to be 24" wide at the pilots seat back for safe arm movement. I'm very glad I took the time to make this thing up. Any mistrakes made here are a lot easier to live with and correct than on the real thing, like forinstance, finding out if you want longer center struts. I'll go back to making engine noises now. Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Piet AD on my (or your) brake system
possibly > >Jack P. wrote: did they both break at once? Jack-- Here is the "rest of the story". About 2 years ago I let some hotshot "Pitts" pilot land it from the front seat. Well suffice it to say, I wouldn't fly with this guy in anything ever again. I was at fault for letting him do that without knowing his skills better, but the thing ground looped at a fairly slow speed. It bent one of those pins and pretty much broke the weld. Not wanting to remove the axle in the middle of summer I did a "fix" that used a long threaded 1/4" rod on the ID of the tube that threaded into the axle to hold the pin. I'm sure that side broke a while back thinking about this is retrospect. So no, I think the pins broke a different times. I'll be more vigilant in pre-flighting them and watching the movement as I brake in the future. PS--other than my getting lazy about watching for signs of this happening, I really like the system and have no regrets about using it. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dmott9(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 24, 2002
Subject: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
In a message dated 10/22/2002 9:48:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nfn00979(at)naples.net writes: > You could also got to http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm and see > some pics of the First Annual Intergalactic Pietenpol Association meeting > held recently at the Thomasville GA fly-in. Did I spell that correctly Don? > One of the pics at the bottom of the page is the drill jig. > Thanks for those great Pictures Ted ! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2002
Subject: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
From: Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
I took a look at the pictures at http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans wrong? Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick and Marge Gillespie" <dickmarg(at)peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
Date: Oct 24, 2002
It's a GN-1. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures > > I took a look at the pictures at > http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm > > I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can > anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind > the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans > wrong? > > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
Date: Oct 24, 2002
could be a GN-1 looks that way... or maybe a Piet with GN-1 control system. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures I took a look at the pictures at http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans wrong? Mike = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2002
From: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
Mike No, you are reading the plans correctly. I think that 30PP's set up like a GN-1 with the cables coming off the front cockpit control tube. If you look at the picture called Harry you will see a small cable going up vertically behind the front cabane and then the aileron horn cable running back from the forward part of the wing in the distance. I don't know if 30PP is a GN-1, but it looks like that is what the builder did. Kirk > >I took a look at the pictures at >http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm > >I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can >anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind >the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans >wrong? > >Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Waytogopiet(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 24, 2002
Subject: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
Yep, you're absolutely correct....looked it up in the old Funk & Wagnalls !! Guess we better pass the word that the 2003 meeting will be at the Sun 'n Fun campgrounds. All Pieters are welcome. Sure enjoyed that ride at T'homasville!! Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Subject: A Call from the Fedman
Pieters, This message is to alert you as to your accuracy in filling out these Fedforms. I thought I was clean and away from the pack when yesterday the phone rang, I said hello, he said this is the FAA in Baton Rouge. I thought, oh sh-- what now. He says, Mr Corbett, we are a little concerned about issuing you a repairman's certificate for your Pietenpol and we wanted to check to determine if maybe you made a mistake on filling out the form. I say, whats the hitch? He says, you have listed your date of birth as 8-2-02 and we are wondering if you are capable of performing the duties of mechanic. Ole Corky in La but not that ole Those of you in the tech know how, how does a McCaulley metal prop CM6944 go with an 0-200? According to ASS catalog I believe it was standard on early 150's. Would like some good advice before laying done that green stuff. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: A Call from the Fedman
Date: Oct 25, 2002
And we thought with that birthday your were just a young'un! -----Original Message----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com [mailto:Isablcorky(at)aol.com] Subject: Pietenpol-List: A Call from the Fedman Pieters, This message is to alert you as to your accuracy in filling out these Fedforms. I thought I was clean and away from the pack when yesterday the phone rang, I said hello, he said this is the FAA in Baton Rouge. I thought, oh sh-- what now. He says, Mr Corbett, we are a little concerned about issuing you a repairman's certificate for your Pietenpol and we wanted to check to determine if maybe you made a mistake on filling out the form. I say, whats the hitch? He says, you have listed your date of birth as 8-2-02 and we are wondering if you are capable of performing the duties of mechanic. Ole Corky in La but not that ole Those of you in the tech know how, how does a McCaulley metal prop CM6944 go with an 0-200? According to ASS catalog I believe it was standard on early 150's. Would like some good advice before laying done that green stuff. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Mike, A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally but I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us a quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles are there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any questions I forgot to ask? Thanks, Gene Hubbard San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net
Subject: Re: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Gene, Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the or screw the aluminum to the bracket. Matt Hubbard, Eugene writes: > > Mike, > > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally but > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us a > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles are > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any questions > I forgot to ask? > > Thanks, > Gene Hubbard > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Matt, I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders to hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the internal structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down at the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the inside of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions. I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached? Gene -----Original Message----- From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows Gene, Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the or screw the aluminum to the bracket. Matt Hubbard, Eugene writes: > > Mike, > > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally but > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us a > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles are > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any questions > I forgot to ask? > > Thanks, > Gene Hubbard > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Texas Corvair College
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Howdy, Vair-heads; William Wynne has agreed to conduct a "Corvair College" here in south Texas, and we've set the date and location: January 18, 2003, at the San Geronimo Airpark, home of EAA Chapter 35. Semi-complete details are available at the following site: http://www.experimental-aviation.com/SACorvairCollege.html This is the weekend immediately prior to Super Bowl 2003 and well after the Christmas and New Year holidays, so you will have no excuses! We're allowing plenty of time to get parts ordered and get engines cleaned. Apparently we are not far enough south to be considered "South", so we aren't calling it the "Southern Comfort Corvair College" anymore. (We had even thought of holding it in Comfort, TX, home of EAA Chapter 747.) Anyway, a good way to keep it in mind is the Texas battle cry, "Remember the Alamo!" and you certainly can visit the Alamo in downtown San Antonio if you come. More information will be forthcoming, such as nearby motels, planned cookouts, that sort of thing. Get your engines and parts ready... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Gene, Matt, I copied mine from an old Cub. got the old sheet of oak tag( sorry to date myself) and masking tape, and went to work. I did a "rubbing" of the rear area, and then a outline of the large upper area. Then kind of fudged the rest. Made 4130 tabs in two places on each to catch the top screws on the valve covers. for the inboard bracket, made it out of fairly thin 4130 plate. First made it out of alum. but my AP said no to that. so redid them in 4130 and added nutplates to hold the eyebrows down. Made them to contour over the bases of the cyl. and catch the top nut on each cyl. I only had non soft alum ( forget what grade) little harder to work with though. My AP showed me the knack of leaving an extra 1/4 in. on the pattern and rolling a piece of 1/16" welding rod into the edge. Gives a nice appearance that won't crack. Even had to dimple out the top rear for plug clearance. Let me know and I can send pics. but they're not that much detail walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows > > Matt, > > I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the > eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and > is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it > appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders to > hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the internal > structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down at > the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the inside > of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions. > > I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached? > > Gene > > -----Original Message----- > From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows > > > Gene, > Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the > or screw the aluminum to the bracket. > > Matt > > Hubbard, Eugene writes: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from > > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally > but > > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us > a > > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles > are > > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted > > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any > questions > > I forgot to ask? > > > > Thanks, > > Gene Hubbard > > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Oh, forgot to say that I put auto type plugs in the A-65 with some snazzy spark plug wire that I got from an antique magneto co. Very reasonable. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows > > Gene, Matt, > I copied mine from an old Cub. got the old sheet of oak tag( sorry to > date myself) and masking tape, and went to work. > I did a "rubbing" of the rear area, and then a outline of the large upper > area. Then kind of fudged the rest. Made 4130 tabs in two places on each > to catch the top screws on the valve covers. > for the inboard bracket, made it out of fairly thin 4130 plate. First made > it out of alum. but my AP said no to that. so redid them in 4130 and added > nutplates to hold the eyebrows down. > Made them to contour over the bases of the cyl. and catch the top nut on > each cyl. > I only had non soft alum ( forget what grade) little harder to work with > though. My AP showed me the knack of leaving an extra 1/4 in. on the > pattern and rolling a piece of 1/16" welding rod into the edge. Gives a > nice appearance that won't crack. > Even had to dimple out the top rear for plug clearance. > Let me know and I can send pics. but they're not that much detail > walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows > > > > > > > Matt, > > > > I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the > > eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and > > is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it > > appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders > to > > hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the > internal > > structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down > at > > the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the > inside > > of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions. > > > > I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached? > > > > Gene > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net] > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows > > > > > > > > Gene, > > Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the > > or screw the aluminum to the bracket. > > > > Matt > > > > Hubbard, Eugene writes: > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from > > > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally > > but > > > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give > us > > a > > > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles > > are > > > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they > riveted > > > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any > > questions > > > I forgot to ask? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Gene Hubbard > > > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net
Subject: Re: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 25, 2002
Mr. Evans has given a clear picture of where you are going, sorry my first email was so perscriptive. And incomplete. The reason you do not want to clamp the aluminum under the valve cover screw is it will over time with heat and vibration squish out from under the head of the fastener and cause an oil leak. Ergo clamp steel tabs in this posistion and fasion your plenum to fit. Is this for a continental Lycoming or Corvair? The latter would require retaining the tins under the cylinders pr WW directions! Good luck! Matt walter evans writes: > > Gene, Matt, > I copied mine from an old Cub. got the old sheet of oak tag( sorry to > date myself) and masking tape, and went to work. > I did a "rubbing" of the rear area, and then a outline of the large upper > area. Then kind of fudged the rest. Made 4130 tabs in two places on each > to catch the top screws on the valve covers. > for the inboard bracket, made it out of fairly thin 4130 plate. First made > it out of alum. but my AP said no to that. so redid them in 4130 and added > nutplates to hold the eyebrows down. > Made them to contour over the bases of the cyl. and catch the top nut on > each cyl. > I only had non soft alum ( forget what grade) little harder to work with > though. My AP showed me the knack of leaving an extra 1/4 in. on the > pattern and rolling a piece of 1/16" welding rod into the edge. Gives a > nice appearance that won't crack. > Even had to dimple out the top rear for plug clearance. > Let me know and I can send pics. but they're not that much detail > walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows > > > >> >> Matt, >> >> I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the >> eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and >> is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it >> appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders > to >> hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the > internal >> structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down > at >> the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the > inside >> of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions. >> >> I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached? >> >> Gene >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net] >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows >> >> >> >> Gene, >> Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the >> or screw the aluminum to the bracket. >> >> Matt >> >> Hubbard, Eugene writes: >> >> >> > >> > Mike, >> > >> > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from >> > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally >> but >> > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give > us >> a >> > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles >> are >> > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they > riveted >> > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any >> questions >> > I forgot to ask? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Gene Hubbard >> > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Eyebrows
Date: Oct 26, 2002
Gene, sorry forgot about the dimples,,,,,guess my dimensions somehow differ from the original, cause when I put them on the rear plugs came a little too close to the alum cover. So I marked the spot and "dimpled" out the area from the inside till the was clearance. To dimple the alum. I got a bag of lead shot from the gun shop. Smaller pellets, not 00buck. and you lay the spot over the let and hit the other side with a round end tool, or a reshaped hammer, guess you could even round a piece of ash. Keep working the area till you get the shape you want. And the alum I used was harder then normal. The soft should be easier to work. You'll be amazed how good it comes out. also used this method when fabricating the engine cowl, the breather elbow on the A-65 needed a dimple in the cowl. walt (figured I'd share it with the group) Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: Eyebrows > Walt, > > Thanks for the description. Tell me more about the dimples for the rear > plugs. Did you run your plug wires inside the eyebrows? > > Thanks again. > Gene > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: cooling eyebrows
Date: Oct 26, 2002
Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; Not sure if this is of any help unless you're using a Franklin engine, but may be good for some cooling eyebrow ideas anyway. There are some fairly close-up pictures of the eyebrows on Ernie Moreno's Piet on my website, at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets2.html The last picture on the page is the most detailed. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Subject: A-65 for sale
I have a nice A-65 that I had planned on using in a pietenpol, however I have decided on a Model A engine. The A-65 has less than 900 hours since new, and 60 hours since overhaul. It has been sitting since 1974. I removed one cylinder and it had some minor rust that would hone out, the bottom end is rust free. I would either do a complete tear down and inspection, or remove all four cylinders and re-ring before use. I have all logs since brand new when it was installed in a cub, the first log came from piper with a picture of a cub on it. It is flange shaft. I will take $2800.00 for it, comes with carb, and magnetos. I live in Oklahoma, and would not want to ship. I prefer you coming to pick it up. E-mail if you are interested, and I will give you my phone number. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: Officially entered Phase l
Date: Oct 27, 2002
for NX140DL. It feels great after all this work ( but I loved it). empty weight 595# 35 mi radius from Newton airport ( more room cause of a controlled airspace to the east) with landing OK'd at Newton and Sussex ( for fuel) 25 hour fly off with A-65 continental and Sensenich combo. Thanks to my AP Mentor , Dick Lawson for getting me thru 2 projects,,,,and all the guys on these groups. Is this the Oscars??? AIN'T LIFE GRAND????? Sorry if I missed any keys, my hands are sore from doing hand springs all the way down the runway. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Subject: Re: Officially entered Phase l
GREAT, Welcome to the club. Yes life is grand. Hope you enjoy your fly off. Are you sure you didn't leave something off to get that 595? Congrats. Corky and Isabelle in La watching someone else fly their plane. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Officially entered Phase l
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Thanks Corky, Y'know the weight bothered me, so I brought all calibrated weights to check the scales. They seem to be OK. Give or take 1# @ 300 lbs.range. My DAR came from Long Island NY ( for the second time to bring me the paperwork, and wanted to see it fly! and seemed disappointed not to!) Don't worry the sport thing is just around the corner!!!!! walt NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Officially entered Phase l > > GREAT, > Welcome to the club. Yes life is grand. Hope you enjoy your fly off. Are you > sure you didn't leave something off to get that 595? Congrats. > Corky and Isabelle in La watching someone else fly their plane. > Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Officially entered Phase l
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Way to go, Walt! I'm about a year behind you. 595 lbs., huh? That's very good. She ought to perform great for you! Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: Officially entered Phase l certificate for NX140DL. It feels great after all this work ( but I loved it). empty weight 595# 35 mi radius from Newton airport ( more room cause of a controlled airspace to the east) with landing OK'd at Newton and Sussex ( for fuel) 25 hour fly off with A-65 continental and Sensenich combo. Thanks to my AP Mentor , Dick Lawson for getting me thru 2 projects,,,,and all the guys on these groups. Is this the Oscars??? AIN'T LIFE GRAND????? Sorry if I missed any keys, my hands are sore from doing hand springs all the way down the runway. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Officially entered Phase l
Date: Oct 27, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Officially entered Phase l ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Walt, Congratulations! Hope to see you at Brodhead next year. John +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > certificate for NX140DL. > It feels great after all this work ( but I loved it). > empty weight 595# > 35 mi radius from Newton airport ( more room cause of a controlled airspace to the east) with landing OK'd at Newton and Sussex ( for fuel) > 25 hour fly off with A-65 continental and Sensenich combo. > Thanks to my AP Mentor , Dick Lawson for getting me thru 2 projects,,,,and all the guys on these groups. > Is this the Oscars??? > AIN'T LIFE GRAND????? > Sorry if I missed any keys, my hands are sore from doing hand springs all the way down the runway. > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Subject: Re: Officially entered Phase l
What corner? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Subject: Parts for 0-200
Pieters, While it will be some time before use I would like to ask all of you to keep in mind I need several things to complete the 0-200 I recently acquired and if you hear of their availibility to please let me hear from you. 1. A pair of Scintilla -21 mags 2. That fitting on the rear of the case that the oil screen screws into. I seem to have everything else. As I will use it on Piet # 2 there will be no need for a starter or gen so these items are surplus and could be used for trading. Also the baffles. Would appreciate help on this matter. Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 27, 2002
I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are not acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not intended for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would rather not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" pulleys? Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of a problem with using the light stuff? Best Regards, Kevin Holcomb http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Parts for 0-200
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Corky, I think I might have the piece the screen screws into. Also, I am checking to see about the manuals. Bear with me a few more days. Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts for 0-200 Pieters, While it will be some time before use I would like to ask all of you to keep in mind I need several things to complete the 0-200 I recently acquired and if you hear of their availibility to please let me hear from you. 1. A pair of Scintilla -21 mags 2. That fitting on the rear of the case that the oil screen screws into. I seem to have everything else. As I will use it on Piet # 2 there will be no need for a starter or gen so these items are surplus and could be used for trading. Also the baffles. Would appreciate help on this matter. Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Wanted: Electronic copies of Old Pietenpol photos for
webpage
Date: Oct 27, 2002
When I am not working, flying or scratching my head over my Pietenpol project I maintain a personal aviation history webpage. http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ It started out as the perfect complement for my flying hobby as flying seemed to empty my pockets of all cash before I had spent even a fraction of my spare time. Thus I needed a low cost/no cost hobby to fill the rest of my spare time. As a result, I started an aviation history webpage some time ago that details selected pioneer era, great war and golden age aircraft. I wanted to cover primarily personal aircraft, however it has largely taken on a course of its own as I have gone where I could find material. I recently added the Air Camper to the covered aircraft and would dearly love to add some vintage pictures of the Air Camper and/or Sky Scout to the page. I dont want to do a page of 'how it's built' as there are several very good resources for that already on the web. Rather I would like to show it how it was. If anyone has photos of Air Campers taken prior to 1940 I would appreciate electronic copies for use on the web page. I will of course attach the appropriate credit to the pictures. Hints on where to look for photos are appreciated as well. Best Regards, Kevin Holcomb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Parts for 0-200
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Don't get locked into one brand of mags. It might be much cheaper to go with a complete package of slicks with harness from Mattituck. No ADs and brand new technology or you can even use Eisemanns. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts for 0-200 > > Pieters, > While it will be some time before use I would like to ask all of you to keep > in mind I need several things to complete the 0-200 I recently acquired and > if you hear of their availibility to please let me hear from you. 1. A pair > of Scintilla -21 mags 2. That fitting on the rear of the case that the oil > screen screws into. I seem to have everything else. As I will use it on Piet > # 2 there will be no need for a starter or gen so these items are surplus and > could be used for trading. Also the baffles. > Would appreciate help on this matter. > Corky in La > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Cooling Eyebrows
Gene, group----I made my cooling eyebrows patterned after a set of beat up Cub eyebrows and used dead soft .024" alum. from Dillsburg Aeroworks in PA. I didn't use any internal baffling, just a two-piece design riveted together. Also I had to fabricate two angle pieces out of aluminum that bolt to the upper cylinder head bolts to secure the top of the baffle to. Then there are two metal fittings fastened to the outter edge of the baffles that attach to the upper screws/bolts of the valve covers. Jack P. just fabricated a nice set and might have photos somewhere. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Cooling Eyebrows
Date: Oct 28, 2002
One of the big cautions is to never, I mean NEVER, put anything that is softer than 4130 steel under a cylinder hold down nut. Better yet, literature, including SBs from both Lycoming and Continental as well as the Bingelis (Firewall Forward page 129) and EAA How To books, implore you not to put ANYTHING under the hold down nuts. The reason? Vibration and cyclical stresses will tend to loosen the nut or allow the material between the nut and the cylinder base to squeeze out, lowering the tightness of the nut on the stud and allowing the nut to loosen up. History has shown that when one nut loosens up then the others will too. It is just a matter of time. How can it ever happen? Just ask my buddy Danny Doyle of McKinney, Texas who had a cylinder loosen up in flight. By the time he made the ground, the case and the cylinder were toast. And that was at idle power. He says to also always use PAL nuts on each stud as an extra precaution. If you visit his strip, he will do a subtle inspection of your engine. If he sees you do not have PAL nuts, he will pull a packaged set from his pocket and GIVE them to you, making you promise to put them on. Now I know that you don't have much of a choice with the eyebrows so go ahead and use the cylinder hold down studs as an attach point but definitely make the attach fittings out of 4130/4140. This material is comparable in hardness to the 4140 the cylinder barrels are made of. Also it is prudent to make some 1/4 circles back to back that can be attached to the lower side between the two cylinders on each side to help guide the air through the fins on the underside of the cylinder. Likewise, the rear of the Cub-style air scoops should wrap around the back of the cylinder to a point at about the 7:30 position. This should attach with a little spring to the rear of the 1/4 circle just ahead of it. See Bingelis' Firewall Forward page 127. This is all to keep the cooling uniform. It is imperitive that the air go through the fins and nut just past the cylinders with an offhand chance the fins might see enough of it. Your engine might appear to be running well now but what about in 600 hrs? Go look at the cylinder underside of a taylorcraft or a cessna 140/150 to see a really good way to keep the air in the fins and not around them. Gaps in the baffling are to be kept to a 1/16" maximum. Also, it is wise to give the baffling a good shove in the direction of the air load to see how far it moves away from its intended placement. You do not want air to take a least path of resisitance around the fins. The baffling must be held in place to force the air THROUGH the fins. It is also a good idea to direct undisturbed cold air along the bottom of the case with the intent to spill it onto the oil sump to enhance cooling. See Bingelis' Firewall Forward page 131 for a tray to accomplish this or look at a taylorcraft or cessna 140/150. Otherwise you have to rely on very turbulent air that is already warmed by the cylinders to cool your oil. Not very good for flying to Brodhead in July. chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows Gene, group----I made my cooling eyebrows patterned after a set of beat up Cub eyebrows and used dead soft .024" alum. from Dillsburg Aeroworks in PA. I didn't use any internal baffling, just a two-piece design riveted together. Also I had to fabricate two angle pieces out of aluminum that bolt to the upper cylinder head bolts to secure the top of the baffle to. Then there are two metal fittings fastened to the outter edge of the baffles that attach to the upper screws/bolts of the valve covers. Jack P. just fabricated a nice set and might have photos somewhere. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows directly to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum or 4130. Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting, not the cyl hold-down bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the nut and it's lots easier just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting. Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero Junkworks and there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Mike, Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a matter of time... Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows directly to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum or 4130. Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting, not the cyl hold-down bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the nut and it's lots easier just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting. Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero Junkworks and there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2002
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Test. -Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D > Cuy > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:35 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows > > > > > Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows > directly > to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum > or 4130. > Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting, > not the cyl hold-down > bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the > nut and it's lots easier > just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting. > > Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero > Junkworks and > there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
> >Mike, > >Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a >matter of time... It's what the Cub uses....works fine for me. I'm talking about the right angle piece that runs from cyl to cyl under the pal nuts and has floating locking nutplates on the top angle to secure the 0000 eyebrows. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Subject: Cylinder hold down bolts, or studs
Cylinder studs are subject to tension every time the jug fires. When one nut becomes loose the others have to make for this loss. That's why correct torque is imperative. If a person chooses to install a light material under a nut it will be a matter of time before the material is hammered out, causing the torque on that nut to be less. After this happens it is only a matter of time before the others are stretched out, and the cylinder can actually be blown off. I worked on a Bell 47 one time that this had happened too, although the cylinder never departed the case several studs had broken and a severe oil leek appeared. The result was a trashed case, and cylinder. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Mike, The cub parts I have are steel. chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows > >Mike, > >Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a >matter of time... It's what the Cub uses....works fine for me. I'm talking about the right angle piece that runs from cyl to cyl under the pal nuts and has floating locking nutplates on the top angle to secure the 0000 eyebrows. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: leading edge with wire inside
Gene, group, One thing that I forgot to mention is that to prevent cracking in the leading edges of your aluminum cooling eyebrows you can 'hem in' a length of 1/16" diam. wire for added strength there and vibration resistance. I just cut some hard maple plywood to the same curved shape as the leading edge of the baffle and used a rubber mallet to bend over about 1/2" of the LE of the baffle then laid the wire inside the curve and finished flattening the hem. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: Wanted
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Does anyone know of a partially completed Sky Scout lurking in a dark corner somewhere? I'm going through "builders withdrawal" !!! Help! Larry "Pull the chocks" The Red Baron's last recorded words ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Kevin, One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in mind that all people have different opinions) Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to be 1/8". Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the DAR didn't say anything. walt NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are not > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not intended > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would rather > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > pulleys? > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of a > problem with using the light stuff? > > Best Regards, > Kevin Holcomb > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Yup... as I recall the AC43-13 says control cables are supposed to be 1/8". flying/bracing wires may be 3/32" I'm doing 1/8" control cables throughout my GN-1. DJ Vegh www.raptoronline.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > Kevin, > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in > mind that all people have different opinions) > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to > be 1/8". > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the > DAR didn't say anything. > walt > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are > not > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > intended > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > rather > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > > pulleys? > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of > a > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > Best Regards, > > Kevin Holcomb > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: back in action!
Date: Oct 28, 2002
well..... it's official! After a long summer break, I'm back to working on the GN-1. Out here in Arizona it just ain't fun to work in the shop when it's 115 degrees outside. I quit working on the project back in June. Today it was 75 degrees and just beautiful outside. I rolled out the fuse, blew it off and sat for about 30 minutes just trying to remember where I left off and what I was gonna do next. I figured it all out and commenced to cutting a piece of 1/4" Okume (sp?) plywood for the very front turtledeck former/seatback. Knew it had to be 8" tall and 24" wide but the curve was freehanded til it looked about right. Gotta love the 'Camper huh?! Mixed up a batch of T-88, glued and clamped it in place and logged my first entry since June. Building season has begun! DJ Vegh www.raptoronline.com Mesa, AZ N74DV This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Date: Oct 28, 2002
I think Chris is right (again - I haven't found him wrong, yet. I'm glad the Fisherman didn't succeed in driving him from this list). When I was making my eyebrows, I looked at a J-3 on our field and noticed that the right front cylinder's top middle nut was loose (by sheer coincidence this is the nut that was holding down the eyebrow bracket). I notified the owner and he tightened it up, but it didn't occur to me that the aluminum bracket was to blame. I made my brackets out of .063" 2024-T3, and one of them is trapped between the cylinder base nuts and the PAL nuts, but on the other side there wasn't enough stud sticking out to even put PALnuts on, much less a bracket under them. I guess I'll need to go back and make the brackets out of 4130, just to be safe. Thanks Chris, Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian Bobka Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows Mike, Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a matter of time... Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows directly to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum or 4130. Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting, not the cyl hold-down bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the nut and it's lots easier just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting. Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero Junkworks and there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: I gotta tell you about this.....
Date: Oct 28, 2002
Well, I've tried to keep quiet about my every little building joy and triumph. Half the messages on this list would be mine if I sent one every time I got excited about a recent Pietenpol building triumph..... Well, this one I HAVE to share. I've NEVER done any metal working before this project. Well tonite I decided to get started on the 9 tail surface hinges. I thought I would try and build them myself, hopefully like the ones I saw on Bill Rewey's rudder/elevators this summer at Brodhead. I still have some corners to round off and holes to make a little more "round" (ream them out a little) but....well, anyway, pictures are at the end of the build pics at http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i67b0de21b30911cdc4c1 Wow, I think I CAN do this! I bent some 1/2" wide 16ga and will have another slightly smaller similar shape "inside" the one in the pics. With rounded corners on both, of course. The pin is a 3/16 dia - 2 1/32 grip (2C65) and the screws are 10-32 washer head screws (10R22). Of course I'll check specs and talk to my tech counselor to make sure it's all the way it should be (and I WON'T use a nail for a cotter pin!) but for now....I like the way it looks. And if anyone sees any glaring problems with this setup, please don't hesitate to let me know. Anyway, this is fun! Jim Markle Plano, TX NX25JM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2002
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: GOOD link to the hinges......
OK, for some reason the "=" sign gets dropped from the string so the link won't work. There should be an = sign between the "i" and the "6" Apparently the matronics server clears that out. By the way, there are a LOT of pics there so you'll need to scroll down to the bottom to see the hinges. And yes, the plans call out thicker material and smaller screws. I'm thinking that with the extra cross sectional area of 4 tabs on each rather than the plan's 3 tabs that might make up the difference. Feels strong as heck. Anyway, a work in progress! Who knows how it will end up looking! :-) Jim Markle Plano, TX http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b30911cdc4c1 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: GOOD link to the hinges......
Date: Oct 29, 2002
10/29/2002 10:17:42 AM Jim: I got the link to work and looked at 110 photos of your project, but saw no hinges. ????????? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Thanks jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows I think Chris is right (again - I haven't found him wrong, yet. I'm glad the Fisherman didn't succeed in driving him from this list). When I was making my eyebrows, I looked at a J-3 on our field and noticed that the right front cylinder's top middle nut was loose (by sheer coincidence this is the nut that was holding down the eyebrow bracket). I notified the owner and he tightened it up, but it didn't occur to me that the aluminum bracket was to blame. I made my brackets out of .063" 2024-T3, and one of them is trapped between the cylinder base nuts and the PAL nuts, but on the other side there wasn't enough stud sticking out to even put PALnuts on, much less a bracket under them. I guess I'll need to go back and make the brackets out of 4130, just to be safe. Thanks Chris, Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian Bobka Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows Mike, Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a matter of time... Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows directly to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum or 4130. Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting, not the cyl hold-down bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the nut and it's lots easier just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting. Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero Junkworks and there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2002
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Hinge pics
OK, first please except my apology for taking up all this bandwidth. I feel like such a dummy. Maybe if I didn't work with compters every day I wouldn't be able to get myself in SO much trouble! THIS link should work and show ALL the pictures, in particular the ones of the hinges (on the last page). Again, sorry..... "http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de" ********* VIEW PICTURES Jim Markle is sharing pictures with you using Shutterfly, the leading online photo service. To view Jim Markle's pictures at Shutterfly, simply go to: http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de (If you can't click on this link, try copying and pasting it into your web browser.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: Hinge pics
Date: Oct 29, 2002
10/29/2002 11:40:02 AM Jim: No apology needed. I enjoyed looking at all the pix. You are doing a beautifull job on your Piet. Are you certian that you have never worked with metal before? Those hinges look like a pro job to me. John Duprey (at)matronics.com on 10/29/2002 10:39:34 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hinge pics OK, first please except my apology for taking up all this bandwidth. I feel like such a dummy. Maybe if I didn't work with compters every day I wouldn't be able to get myself in SO much trouble! THIS link should work and show ALL the pictures, in particular the ones of the hinges (on the last page). Again, sorry..... "http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de" ********* VIEW PICTURES Jim Markle is sharing pictures with you using Shutterfly, the leading online photo service. To view Jim Markle's pictures at Shutterfly, simply go to: http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de (If you can't click on this link, try copying and pasting it into your web browser.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? Gene Hubbard San Diego -----Original Message----- From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables Kevin, One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in mind that all people have different opinions) Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to be 1/8". Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the DAR didn't say anything. walt NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are not > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not intended > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would rather > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > pulleys? > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of a > problem with using the light stuff? > > Best Regards, > Kevin Holcomb > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Gene, over a year ago I was planning to go 1/8" on all of the controls. I think I might have gotten that from Bingelis?? But lots of guys on the list said it was too heavy and over kill so I bought 3/32" wire for everything except the stick to bellcrank cables. I also did my tailwires in 1/16" as per the consenus of some of the more experienced guys on the list. So here we go. Ed >From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables >Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:45:45 -0800 > > > >Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I >can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that >can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone >have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > >Gene Hubbard >San Diego > >-----Original Message----- >From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > >Kevin, >One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in >mind that all people have different opinions) >Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to >be 1/8". >Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". >The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the >DAR didn't say anything. >walt >NX140DL > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are >not > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase >the > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not >intended > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger >pulley > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would >rather > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a >problem > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > > pulleys? > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard >of >a > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > Best Regards, > > Kevin Holcomb > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Bingelis on eyebrows
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Mike, The key is that you used the pal nuts to hold on your angles not the cylinder hold downs. I am trying to stress with these guys that anything that goes UNDER the cylinder hold downs is hard steel. Your ship is finewith the inboard angles under the pal nuts. Dead soft is the way to go. It will age harden and work harden to a higher T so that when you are 70 and the ship is 40, they will begin to take on the charismatic cracks we love to look at on the cubs. chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows directly to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum or 4130. Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting, not the cyl hold-down bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the nut and it's lots easier just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting. Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero Junkworks and there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Gene, Think it the idea that, beside the regulation that covers it, if you put in the smaller and the inspector fails it, you have to change it all. and you just can't rethread the thicker stuff. It needs a different pully width. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > -----Original Message----- > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > Kevin, > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in > mind that all people have different opinions) > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to > be 1/8". > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the > DAR didn't say anything. > walt > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are > not > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > intended > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > rather > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > > pulleys? > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of > a > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > Best Regards, > > Kevin Holcomb > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
But guys, we are not builing to FAR 43 and AC 43 is "advisory". "This is an "experimental". You could use rope if you want to. My Certified prewar Aeronca 50-c Chief uses 3/32" throughout. There is no 1/8" anywhere. If we did not have the access that we do to inspect routinely all the cable lengths (like every time we fly), it would present a good case for the 1/8". I would use the 3/32". It was ok for aircraft certified under Aeronautics Bulletin 7 in 1931 and is appropriate for ships designed in that period. Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables Gene, Think it the idea that, beside the regulation that covers it, if you put in the smaller and the inspector fails it, you have to change it all. and you just can't rethread the thicker stuff. It needs a different pully width. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > -----Original Message----- > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > Kevin, > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in > mind that all people have different opinions) > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to > be 1/8". > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the > DAR didn't say anything. > walt > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are > not > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > intended > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > rather > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > > pulleys? > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of > a > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > Best Regards, > > Kevin Holcomb > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: steel under cyl hold down---for sure
Group--What Chris says IS correct on not to put any fittings fabricated from aluminum UNDER your cyl. hold down nuts--use steel for sure. Under the pal nuts it's ok to use aluminum as I did. From what I understand pal nuts are no longer required ( I used them because they came in my rebuild kit and I like the idea of what they were intended to do--keep the nut from loosening.) and some builders will find that they don't have nuff threads left to use a pal nut anyway, so best to use steel fittings in the cooling eyebrow installation. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Hinge pics
Date: Oct 29, 2002
In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll saw. Is that being used to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how did you cut it? Kent Hallsten Oklahoma City Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" (wood) Band Saw. I sure WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a hacksaw and did the cutting by hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this list to go to Harbor Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting band saws is probably the best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good but painfully SLOW success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw (with marginal success) with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" pneumatic cutoff saw with really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that inside a box with the blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table saw type of arrangement. Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be easier than the way I'm doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until I can afford the couple hundred for a good band saw. As usual, I WELCOME suggestions...... Jim Markle Plano, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Hinge pics
Kent, Just today I got a bunch of stuff from Grizzly at work. The most interesting to me is the variable speed 12" table top bandsaw. I put it together and fired it up. It came with a 12tpi wood blade or something like that, but I also ordered a 24tpi raker blade for metal. I haven't tried it on metal yet - maybe Friday as the kids have a half day of school. I adjustable speed does get down to metal speeds. Here is a link to the thing. http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G8976 > > >In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll saw. Is that being used >to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how did you cut it? > >Kent Hallsten >Oklahoma City > > >Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" (wood) Band Saw. I sure >WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a hacksaw and did the cutting by >hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this list to go to Harbor >Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting band saws is probably the >best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good but painfully SLOW >success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw (with marginal success) >with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" pneumatic cutoff saw with >really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that inside a box with the >blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table saw type of arrangement. >Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be easier than the way I'm >doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until I can afford the couple >hundred for a good band saw. > >As usual, I WELCOME suggestions...... -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not type data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had trouble getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the light stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt, especially when it will result in a lighter airplane. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > -----Original Message----- > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > Kevin, > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in > mind that all people have different opinions) > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to > be 1/8". > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the > DAR didn't say anything. > walt > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are > not > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > intended > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > rather > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > > pulleys? > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of > a > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > Best Regards, > > Kevin Holcomb > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
For what it's worth. I only have 1/8 between the cabanes and the wing struts. All controls are the flexible 3/32 and the tail feathers are held together ( well ) with 1/16. It's flying like a dream come true with no complaints from the test pilot. Why pay $5 for a cookie when you can buy it for a nickle. I believe in safety, as my age will atest, but I think some of these aero techs have carried the subject beyond good common sense. Especially those who publish the ASS catalog. No wonder GA is in the position it's in. Ole Corky in La still looking for the best for GA and fighting those vultures who sell supplies. Wish we went back to the war time OPA, Office of price administration. The only federal bureau that ever amounted to anything. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Another 2 cents worth: There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable: 1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable. 2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces. Lou Larsen P.S. Just finished the last of the rib stitching. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not type > data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had trouble > getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the light > stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt, especially > when it will result in a lighter airplane. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I > > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that > > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone > > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > > > > Gene Hubbard > > San Diego > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, > > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in > > mind that all people have different opinions) > > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed > to > > be 1/8". > > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the > > DAR didn't say anything. > > walt > > NX140DL > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > > To: > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are > > not > > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase > the > > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > > intended > > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger > pulley > > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > > rather > > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a > problem > > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2" > > > pulleys? > > > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34 > > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard > of > > a > > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Kevin Holcomb > > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Everyone, My response was only my own opinion. With all the stories of all the inspectors out there,,,,,with all due respect, put in what ever you want. walt NX140DL PS. with all my 1/8" control cable, my empty weight is 595# ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > Another 2 cents worth: > > There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable: > > 1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable. > > 2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces. > > Lou Larsen > > P.S. Just finished the last of the rib stitching. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not type > > data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had trouble > > getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the > light > > stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt, > especially > > when it will result in a lighter airplane. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> > > To: > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? > I > > > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure > that > > > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does > anyone > > > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > > > > > > Gene Hubbard > > > San Diego > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, > > > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep > in > > > mind that all people have different opinions) > > > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed > > to > > > be 1/8". > > > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > > > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and > the > > > DAR didn't say anything. > > > walt > > > NX140DL > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > > > To: > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys > are > > > not > > > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase > > the > > > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > > > intended > > > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger > > pulley > > > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > > > rather > > > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a > > problem > > > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated > 2" > > > > pulleys? > > > > > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved > '34 > > > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone > heard > > of > > > a > > > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Kevin Holcomb > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Not only is it lighter, but a lot of that weight savings is way aft of the CG where extra weight really hurts. I followed the plans and used 1/8" between the stick and the bellcrank, then 3/32" for all other control cables. Remember when looking at AC 43.13 that it is basically written for more modern airplanes, which typically have only two cables for the elevators, one for up and one for down. A Piet has four - two up (one on each side) and two down, at least once you get past the bellcrank. That's why the 1/8" cable from the stick to the bellcrank - that one up cable is carrying all the load. Tell that to any inspector who wants you to run 1/8" cable. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lou Larsen Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables Another 2 cents worth: There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable: 1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable. 2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces. Lou Larsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 3/32 Control Cables
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Thanks for the feedback. Every opinion is valued when it comes to making these tough decisions. 595 lb is a heck of an accomplishment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > Everyone, > My response was only my own opinion. With all the stories of all the > inspectors out there,,,,,with all due respect, put in what ever you want. > walt > NX140DL > PS. with all my 1/8" control cable, my empty weight is 595# > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > Another 2 cents worth: > > > > There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable: > > > > 1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable. > > > > 2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces. > > > > Lou Larsen > > > > P.S. Just finished the last of the rib stitching. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > > To: > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not > type > > > data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had > trouble > > > getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the > > light > > > stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt, > > especially > > > when it will result in a lighter airplane. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> > > > To: > > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator > idler? > > I > > > > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure > > that > > > > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does > > anyone > > > > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls? > > > > > > > > Gene Hubbard > > > > San Diego > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net] > > > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, > > > > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( > keep > > in > > > > mind that all people have different opinions) > > > > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are > supposed > > > to > > > > be 1/8". > > > > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8". > > > > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and > > the > > > > DAR didn't say anything. > > > > walt > > > > NX140DL > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> > > > > To: > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys > > are > > > > not > > > > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could > increase > > > the > > > > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not > > > > intended > > > > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger > > > pulley > > > > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would > > > > rather > > > > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a > > > problem > > > > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and > associated > > 2" > > > > > pulleys? > > > > > > > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved > > '34 > > > > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone > > heard > > > of > > > > a > > > > > problem with using the light stuff? > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > Kevin Holcomb > > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Hinge pics
Date: Oct 29, 2002
Jim, I have a normal 12" Sears wood band saw. I couldn't figure out how to slow it down and didn't have a metal cutting blade. I was impatient and wanted to get started. I tried the hacksaw for about 5 seconds. Tried a scroll saw but it jumped around too much. Finally, I decided to cut some 4130 flat stock on my wood band saw. Figured that I would ruin the blade in about 2 or 3 cuts. But, oh well!! At least I would get something done that weekend. It was amazing how easy the blade cut through that metal. Just push until it starts to glow red and then keep it moving at a speed that keeps the red glow. It cuts almost like butter. I cut ALL my fittings. That was six months ago and I am still using that blade to cut metal and wood. One point I should make is that all the cuts were pretty much straight. I couldn't cut curves. I shaped with a grinder after rough cutting with the band saw. It is a 3/8" blade with about 6 or 7 tpi. Hope this helps someone. Ted Brousseau Naples, FL PS I was going through some early EAA magazines and saw an article by an old fellow (probably younger than me now, but old to me then...). He called this cutting "friction cutting". ----- Original Message ----- From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Hinge pics > > > In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll saw. Is that being used > to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how did you cut it? > > Kent Hallsten > Oklahoma City > > > Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" (wood) Band Saw. I sure > WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a hacksaw and did the cutting by > hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this list to go to Harbor > Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting band saws is probably the > best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good but painfully SLOW > success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw (with marginal success) > with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" pneumatic cutoff saw with > really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that inside a box with the > blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table saw type of arrangement. > Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be easier than the way I'm > doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until I can afford the couple > hundred for a good band saw. > > As usual, I WELCOME suggestions...... > > Jim Markle > Plano, TX > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Hinge pics
with the three wheel bandsaw you can only use the cheap soft bands with it, because the better quality bands will not flex around the small third wheel without breaking. I sell bands to cabinet shops and the home hobbiests with three wheel bandsaws I will not supply to, because they just bring them back broken right away. and the cheap soft bands just don't stay sharp very long. you will get the job done, but be prepared to buy alot of bands. Del --- The Huizenga's <kirkh@unique-software.com> wrote: > Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com> > > Kent, > > Just today I got a bunch of stuff from Grizzly at > work. The most > interesting to me is the variable speed 12" table > top bandsaw. I put > it together and fired it up. It came with a 12tpi > wood blade or > something like that, but I also ordered a 24tpi > raker blade for > metal. I haven't tried it on metal yet - maybe > Friday as the kids > have a half day of school. > > I adjustable speed does get down to metal speeds. > Here is a link to the thing. > > http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G8976 > > > > > > > > >In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll > saw. Is that being used > >to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how > did you cut it? > > > >Kent Hallsten > >Oklahoma City > > > > > >Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" > (wood) Band Saw. I sure > >WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a > hacksaw and did the cutting by > >hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this > list to go to Harbor > >Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting > band saws is probably the > >best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good > but painfully SLOW > >success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw > (with marginal success) > >with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" > pneumatic cutoff saw with > >really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that > inside a box with the > >blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table > saw type of arrangement. > >Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be > easier than the way I'm > >doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until > I can afford the couple > >hundred for a good band saw. > > > >As usual, I WELCOME suggestions...... > > -- > Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and > Corvair Project > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery > > > > Forum - > Contributions of > any other form > > latest messages. > other List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/search > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: RE: Hinge pics
Date: Oct 29, 2002
My dad made a 3 wheel band saw before WW2. We found that we had to use the thinnest blades and then you had to tension them very tight to keep them from breaking. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Hinge pics > > with the three wheel bandsaw you can only use the > cheap soft bands with it, because the better quality > bands will not flex around the small third wheel > without breaking. I sell bands to cabinet shops and > the home hobbiests with three wheel bandsaws I will > not supply to, because they just bring them back > broken right away. and the cheap soft bands just don't > stay sharp very long. you will get the job done, but > be prepared to buy alot of bands. > Del > --- The Huizenga's <kirkh@unique-software.com> wrote: > > Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com> > > > > Kent, > > > > Just today I got a bunch of stuff from Grizzly at > > work. The most > > interesting to me is the variable speed 12" table > > top bandsaw. I put > > it together and fired it up. It came with a 12tpi > > wood blade or > > something like that, but I also ordered a 24tpi > > raker blade for > > metal. I haven't tried it on metal yet - maybe > > Friday as the kids > > have a half day of school. > > > > I adjustable speed does get down to metal speeds. > > Here is a link to the thing. > > > > > http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G8976 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll > > saw. Is that being used > > >to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how > > did you cut it? > > > > > >Kent Hallsten > > >Oklahoma City > > > > > > > > >Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" > > (wood) Band Saw. I sure > > >WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a > > hacksaw and did the cutting by > > >hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this > > list to go to Harbor > > >Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting > > band saws is probably the > > >best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good > > but painfully SLOW > > >success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw > > (with marginal success) > > >with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" > > pneumatic cutoff saw with > > >really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that > > inside a box with the > > >blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table > > saw type of arrangement. > > >Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be > > easier than the way I'm > > >doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until > > I can afford the couple > > >hundred for a good band saw. > > > > > >As usual, I WELCOME suggestions...... > > > > -- > > Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and > > Corvair Project > > > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery > > > > > > > > Forum - > > Contributions of > > any other form > > > > latest messages. > > other List members. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/search > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Hinge pics
Hi Jim, those are flybaby hinges. That's what I want to use too. I've looked at a few flybaby tails and most were not perfectly lined up. As you moved the elevater up and down you could see them flex. I didn't like that but realized that the worst of them was pretty old and the flexing hadn't caused any problems over all those years. It appears that the metal between the bolt and hinge hole is long enough to minimize fatigue. Another approach is Chris Heinz hinge setup on the Zodiac. Go to: www.zenithair.com and in the "Design College" go down to the bottom to the Zodiac hingeless aileron. This probably has some bearing on the fatigue situation noted above. Just remember, great minds think alike, but--- fools seldom differ. Is that us? hahaha. ----- Original Message ----- From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hinge pics > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 30, 2002
Subject: Cessna's & Assholes (control cables)
Just remember that everyone has one, just like opinions. A joke I once heard, but very true. I owned a 1938 Aeronca, best I can remember it had 1/8 cables. But I have flow ultralights with 1/16 cables, that fly about as fast as a Pietenpol. Just remember these birds are Experimental, which means you can do just about anything you want or trust to do. I would tend to use 1/8 on my bird, the idea being it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Tailwheel
Date: Oct 30, 2002
Hi Group: Does anyone have plans for using a tailwheel with the coil spring type tail? Or does anyone sell plans or have plans ever been in the newsletters? Dennis Engelkenjohn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gdascomb(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 30, 2002
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Try this for plans: http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Date: Oct 30, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: <Gdascomb(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > > Try this for plans: > http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html > > Thank You I had her website before, but lost it when my hard drive passed away. I e-mailed her immediately and will buy her plans. Have heard only good things about her designs. Dennis Engelkenjohn > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Date: Oct 31, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > Hi Kent: Good to hear from you again! I only saw Leons' tank through the back of his truck window. He had already went to supper when I looked in and Chuck and I went to supper after showing his jigs and such. When we got back, Leon had left already so I didn't get a close look. But from what I did see, it looked really well made. Does Leon have e-mail or a phone number so I can get his opinion of her plans? I am ordering her plans for the tailwheel today. A buddy of mine is an A & P and a certified welder, who has said he would weld an aluminum tank for me, but he is not as young as he used to be and he has his own projects to complete, so fiberglas is looking good to me. Plus it will be a learning experience for me as I haven't done any fiberglas work before and have been wanting to learn. Dennis Engelkenjohn ps... fuselage sides are now together, torque tube welded and I am about ready to put the seats in and the instrument panels on and the turtle deck stringers. Ribs are done and so are the tail surfaces, except for rounding and touch up. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2002
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Now about those hinges!! :-)
Wow, thanks for all the feedback on my hinge project! I just love learning new skills, especially when I'm helped along the way with such great input! I actually figured out a way to do an extremely straight cut with my recip saw. But I will go ahead and order a variable speed bandsaw similar to the one Kirk Huizenga noted. (Harbor Freight $99) I'll assume that Kirk's tryout of the saw (today?) will be successful! The holes I drilled in the hinges were horrible! So I picked up some reamers and WOW, that's the ticket! Yes, this is probably old news to most of you, but I just figured it out and what a job those things do! If I'm not careful I just might turn into a real machinist! Nah.... Thanks again for ALL the input! Now back to assembling rudder parts..... Jim in Plano, TX NX25JM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Nov 01, 2002
Subject: Price plans
Hello Kent and Dennis: I think all of us at one point got our wires crossed at Benton and missed some one. You should have opened the back of my truck and hada look. It would have been fine with me. Last night I wrote a lengthy note on the price plans. The post still hasn't shown up on the sight.-? It's out in cyber space somewhere. But to make it short, I didn't use the Price center section because I already had my c-section spars cut for the Pietenpol center section before I bought Price's plans. I made her (his at the time) fuel tank and like it fine. I had to do things inside the tank bay a little different because of the difference in tank style. At the time I thought the tank was a LOT of hard work, but looking back it only took around 3 hours to lay up the 2 halves. (with my brother helping me). The molds were simple with lumber yard materiel. For simplicity I went with a leaf spring tail wheel. (Mike Cuy drawings) No welding. I like her piano hinge ailerons and will be using them. You need to close that gap any way. If I had it to do over I wouldn't put the front door in. Its nice and practical, but It's added weight. Price told me his Piet. came at around 730 lbs. That's kind of heavy, There is more I could tell you about the fuel tank. If you build it send another note. The Price plans are all excellent but "buisy". I think if you use all of them you will be on the heavy side just as K. Prise's plane is. Glad to see you guys are moving along in your construction. If you don't have the Bengiles books, by all means get them. Also get a LARGE box for your do-overs. Leon S.--doing over my tail wire brackets. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: Now about those hinges!! :-)
I did try the saw today and it work fine. Slow, but fine. I cut through 6" of .09 4130 in 4 minutes or so. Definitely nicer than a hacksaw. I used the 24tpi raker band and didn't have a precise speed set, just slow. I did put a little cutting and tapping fluid on the sheet metal before and the metal never got more than barely warm. One nice thing is that I have a CNC mill at school also and can use that to cut out fittings precisely - so the saw is just to cut the rough stock to size so it can be milled in the CNC machince. I did a few pieces for my brother-in-law, who is building a 4-place Vision. They turned out nicely and was a lot of fun. I hope things work out well with your new saw Jim Kirk > >Wow, thanks for all the feedback on my hinge project! I just love learning >new skills, especially when I'm helped along the way with such great input! > >I actually figured out a way to do an extremely straight cut with my recip >saw. But I will go ahead and order a variable speed bandsaw similar to the >one Kirk Huizenga noted. (Harbor Freight $99) I'll assume that Kirk's tryout >of the saw (today?) will be successful! > >The holes I drilled in the hinges were horrible! So I picked up some reamers >and WOW, that's the ticket! Yes, this is probably old news to most of you, >but I just figured it out and what a job those things do! If I'm not careful >I just might turn into a real machinist! Nah.... > >Thanks again for ALL the input! Now back to assembling rudder parts..... > >Jim in Plano, TX >NX25JM -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2002
Subject: Re: Now about those hinges!! :-)
From: catdesigns(at)juno.com
Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did you get them? Chris Sacramento, CA ---------- writes: From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Now about those hinges!! :-) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:37:59 -0500 Wow, thanks for all the feedback on my hinge project! I just love learning new skills, especially when I'm helped along the way with such great input! I actually figured out a way to do an extremely straight cut with my recip saw. But I will go ahead and order a variable speed bandsaw similar to the one Kirk Huizenga noted. (Harbor Freight $99) I'll assume that Kirk's tryout of the saw (today?) will be successful! The holes I drilled in the hinges were horrible! So I picked up some reamers and WOW, that's the ticket! Yes, this is probably old news to most of you, but I just figured it out and what a job those things do! If I'm not careful I just might turn into a real machinist! Nah.... Thanks again for ALL the input! Now back to assembling rudder parts..... Jim in Plano, TX NX25JM Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2002
From: "Jim Markle"<jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Source for reamers....
I got them from Grainger. Look at the bottom of the "printable version" of page 1548 at www.grainger.com. Jim Plano, TX Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did you get them? Chris Sacramento, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: whats the story on insurance?
Date: Nov 01, 2002
I don't know much about insurance on a homebuilt. Is it mandetory? Do all of you have it? If so what is the company? Liability only? Please fill me in, cause I don't think this has been discussed before. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: A-75
Date: Nov 01, 2002
Hey Group I just got back from a business trip to Dallas. There was a A-75 listed in the Dallas Morning News newspaper yesterday. It is in the aviation column and lists 0 smoh with mags and carb. The asking price was $3800. Unfortunatly I lost track of the phone number. Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2002
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2002 List Fund Raiser - Please Support Your Lists...
Dear Listers, During November of each year, I have a voluntary Email List Fund Raiser to support the continued operation, development, maintenance and upgrade of the Email Forums sponsored here. Your Contributions go directly into improvements in the systems that support the Lists and to pay for the Internet connectivity primarily dedicated to supporting the Lists. The traffic on the Lists continues to grow and the numbers are nothing short of impressive! Here are some statistics that show much traffic the Lists generated last year alone: 11/01/2001 - 10/31/2002 Web server hits: 8,700,000 (727,000/mo) Incoming Email Posts: 51,259 (4,271/mo) * * This number is multiplied by the total number of email addresses subscribed to the given List. The actual number of email message processed is in the 50,000,000 range for last year!! The new Internet provider, Speakeasy, has been providing extremely fast and reliable service over the last year, and this has certainly been a refreshing change from previous providers! There were a couple of new features added at the tail-end of last year including the new List Browse Feature ( http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), and the List Photoshare which have been both very popular. Many people have written to say how much they enjoy the on-line browsing capability of current week's messages. The 184 new Photoshares ( http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ) added over the last year attests to its acceptance and appreciation in the community as well. I have upgraded both the email and web server OS systems recently to the latest - well almost the latest - version of Redhat Linux and Kernel 2.4.19, both of which have been working very well and quite reliably. What does the future hold? Well, something pretty exciting I'm hoping... I am currently evaluating a new, commercially available software package that runs under Linux and provides a complete web-based Email List service akin to what those other guys use. The difference will be that there won't be any annoying advertisements and popup ads on the Matronics system!! The system will continue to be dedicated to furthering Lists activities and not trying to sell you something you don't want. My hope is to keep most if not all of the current functionality in place and add the new software system over the top. Some of the system will be replaced (like majordomo), but the lists will work much like they do today - only BETTER! As I mentioned, I am currently in the evaluation stage of this and have yet to select a final product. Suffice to say some facelifts are definitely on the way! Unlike many of the other "list servers" on the web these days, I have a strict no-commercial-advertisement policy on the Matronics Lists and associated List websites. I have been approached by a number of vendors recently with advertising deals that have been very tempting. However, my commitment to providing a grass-roots, non-commercial environment prevails! Commercialism on the Internet seems to be increasing exponentially every year with more and more SPAM and pop up ads, not to mention the ever increasing Virus attacks. My goal with the Matronics List Service is to provide my members with a commercial-free, safe, and high-performance system in which to share information, ideas, and camaraderie. I recoup my upgrade, maintenance, and operating costs by having a List Fund Raiser once a year during November. During this time, I ask List members to donate a small amount of money to support the continued operation of the Lists over the upcoming year. Contributions in the $20, $30, and $50 range are common. This year I have completely revamped the Contribution website, and have added the ability to use PayPal to make your Contribution in addition to the traditional Visa/MC and Personal Check Options. Its easier and faster than ever before to make your Contribution!! For those who are accustomed to using PayPal to make Internet purchases, will appreciate the ease and speed of using this handy method of payment to make their List Contribution. The best news this year, however, is that I have a couple of fantastic Gift offers to support the List Fund Raiser! Andy Gold of The Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ) will be generously donating a FREE Jeppesen Flight Bag to anyone making a $50 or more List Contribution during the Fund Raiser! This is a great bag and something you'll surely what to get your hands on. Thanks Andy, for this great incentive!! In addition to the great Flight Bag, I will also be offering a FREE Matronics List Archive CDROM for a $50 or greater Contribution! This is a complete set of archives for all Email Lists currently hosted by Matronics. The Archives date back to the beginning of the each List. In the case of the RV-List, for example, this includes archives all the way back to 1990! That's about 133Mb alone! Also included on the CD is a copy of Chip Gibbion's Windows Archive Search Utility and a precompiled search-index for each archive on the CD. Better yet?! You can get BOTH the Flight Bag AND the Archive CD for a Contribution of $75 or more which is actually LESS than the combined retail price on the two items!!! How can you go wrong? Get some great stuff AND support your Lists at the same time! Over the next month I'll be posting a few reminder messages about the List Fund Raiser, and I ask for your patience and understanding during the process. Remember that the Lists are *completely* funded through the generous Contributions of its members. That's it! There's no support from a bloated advertising budget or deep pockets somewhere. Its all made possible through YOUR support! I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who supports the List this year. Your generosity contributes directly to the quality of the experience here. To make your List Contribution using a Visa or MasterCard, PalPal, or with a Personal Check, please go to the URL link below. Here you can find additional details on this year's great free Gifts as well as additional information on the various methods of payment. SSL Secure Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contributions Again, I would like to thank everyone who supports the Lists this year! Your Contributions truly make it all possible!! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: whats the story on insurance?
Date: Nov 01, 2002
Walt, Good question. You have to have insurance if the airport where you tie it down requires it. Unless you are a pauper you should at least have liability insurance to defend you and pay any claims caused by your "negligence". Your idea of negligence and a jury's might differ. Hull insurance is optional. But, it is relatively cheap - compared to the blood sweat and tears you have invested in your plane. I have my insurance through AUA (R.C. McGee) 800-727-3823. They insure our kinds of planes. If you are EAA you get a discount. And they EXPECT you to land on grass and non public landing fields. They have been good to me (and I get a nice T shirt each year at Sun n Fun). Hope this helps. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: whats the story on insurance? > > I don't know much about insurance on a homebuilt. Is it mandetory? Do all of you have it? If so what is the company? Liability only? Please fill me in, cause I don't think this has been discussed before. > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Source for reamers....
Date: Nov 02, 2002
Here's a home machinist tip that might help. By purchasing several sizes of drill rod, you can make a set of reamers that is inexpensive and work quite well. Cut your drill rod ( for example, quarter inch) four to six inches long. Cut a bevel on one end so one third of the end remains. Make the bevel two to two and a half times the diameter long. Square the other end for a wrench. Hone the cutting edges sharp and clean. They might not be as fancy as a fluted reamer but you'll be surprised how well they work. Remember, if you heat the metal too much while grinding the bevel, ( and you probably will ) heat treat the cutting end to reharden. To harden, ( ask when you buy the rod if it is water or oil hardened) heat the cutting end bright red, then quench. It will be too brittle if left fully hardened so polish with an emery cloth, reheat to a straw color, then quench again. Hope this helps. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Source for reamers.... Markle" > > > I got them from Grainger. Look at the bottom of the "printable version" of > page 1548 at www.grainger.com. > > Jim > Plano, TX > > > Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did you get them? > > Chris > Sacramento, CA > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Source for reamers....
another method that I use is to take a regular drill bit, change the cutting edge to a neg angle ( can be done easily by hand on the edge of a grinding wheel with a sharp corner) and while spinning the drill bit run a long strip of sandpaper held on each end, up and down the OD of the bit briefly or more if you want reduce the OD by a couple of thousands(don't tighten the paper too tight on the drill, making it grab). makes a tighter and rounder hole. of course drill it close with another drill bit and then run this one thru last Del --- Carl Loar wrote: > > > Here's a home machinist tip that might help. By > purchasing several sizes of > drill rod, you can make a set of > reamers that is inexpensive and work quite well. > Cut your drill rod ( for > example, quarter inch) four to six inches > long. Cut a bevel on one end so one third of the end > remains. Make the bevel > two to two and a half times the > diameter long. Square the other end for a wrench. > Hone the cutting edges > sharp and clean. They might not be as > fancy as a fluted reamer but you'll be surprised how > well they work. > Remember, if you heat the metal too much > while grinding the bevel, ( and you probably will ) > heat treat the cutting > end to reharden. > To harden, ( ask when you buy the rod if it is water > or oil hardened) heat > the cutting end bright red, then quench. > It will be too brittle if left fully hardened so > polish with an emery cloth, > reheat to a straw color, then quench again. > Hope this helps. > Carl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> > To: "Pietenpol List" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Source for reamers.... > > > Markle" > > > > > > I got them from Grainger. Look at the bottom of > the "printable version" > of > > page 1548 at www.grainger.com. > > > > Jim > > Plano, TX > > > > > > Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did > you get them? > > > > Chris > > Sacramento, CA > > > > > > > > Forum - > Contributions of > any other form > > latest messages. > other List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/search > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Vise Brake
Date: Nov 02, 2002
Hi Everyone: I found the neatest tool at Harbor Freight this week, at my local store in St.Louis, MO. Greatest thing since sliced bread! While nosing around at Harbor Freight this week, I looked under the table where they display their vises and found something called a "vise brake". It has magnetic pads that hold it to the jaws of a vise and has an anvil on one vise jaw and a V block on the other jaw. You put the piece of metal to be bent between them and line up the mark with the anvil and just turn the vise handle and the vise makes a neat 90 degree bend (or less) in your brackets! No hammering. This high dollar complicated piece of machinery costs $10 for a 4" vise, up to $ 20 for an 8" bender. I was impressed with the bends to say the least. You could easily make your own, but for $ 10 it is far less expensive to just buy one. Dennis Engelkenjohn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Leon Stefan
Date: Nov 02, 2002
Hi Everyone: I am trying to e-mail Leon Stefan but the messages to his address keep bouncing. If you get this message, Leon, would you e-mail me with a phone number? Dennis Engelkenjohn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: stuff seen at Benton
Date: Nov 02, 2002
Leon, Was that your Model "A" prop adapter that was being used as a piet plans paper weight?? (I didn't think to ask while everyone was hanging around! ;-) Was it from the " golden nuggets" in the newsletter? Did you use the steel called out or ?? (cold rolled steel?) Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 02, 2002
Subject: Model A
Are there very many builders using the Model A? I am planing on using an A engine myself. Can someone give me some insight on known pro's & con's. Dan Ardmore, OK ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject:
Here's a new twist on an old idea from an RAA member; bending small tubes to extremely tight radius' as in fuel cap vents etc. Pinch off one end in a vise with the open end pointing upwards. Heat the pipe with a torch. fill pipe with solder, pinch off top end. Bend pipe as needed. cut off both ends and heat, melting out solder. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Nov 04, 2002
Subject: Prop hub - Model A pros & cons
Hi Mike: Yah that was my hub adaptor. I bought it from Dick Weeden at Brodhead back in July 01. I don't know what steel it is. It has the Cont. bolt patterned. Dan, from Ardmore Ok.- The pros are obvious just looking at a Piet with the A. On the con side, a Piet with the A is really underpowered. The thing I don't truly understand is why some guys can fly the heck out of the Model A with high reliability, While others have nothing but trouble. I'm using the Model A, but recently bought a run out A-65 Cont. just in case. Kind of like adding a belt to supplement the suspenders on my Levis. Leon S. Hutchinson Ks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2002
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: New List Digest Feature!! [Please Read]
Dear Listers, I've added a new feature to the Digest format of the Lists tonight. At the top of each digest you will find a new Index Listing of all of the messages found within that Digest including the Message Number, Subject, Poster, and Time of Day posted. I've also added a "Message Number" header to each message within the Digest so that its easy to find 'just the message' you were looking for! Sorry for the double posting of the digests tonight - the first time I didn't quite have the code right and a few "bogus" entries made it into the Index. I went ahead and reposted the Digest so that everyone could see how the Index-to-Message mapping really worked. Special 'thanks' to Gary Hall for not only suggesting a Digest Index, but also supplying a few samples on how it might look. Gary, I think you'll be quite pleased with the format! Don't forget that were right in the middle of this year's List Fund Raiser and if you haven't already made your Contribution, you own it to yourself to check out the great free Gifts that are available this year with your qualifying Contribution. The Lists are operated completely though the support of it members, and so its up to YOU to get that credit card out and make that $20, $30, or $50 show of support for the continued operation of the Lists. Won't you take a couple of minutes and make a quick Contribution on the all new, streamlined List Support web site? I've also added a Payment-through-PayPal option this year, and this is proving a very popular method of payment. Don't forget to check out the great free gifts you can get with a qualifying Contribution this year. I can't believe how popular they've been this year! Hurry and get your's today and support the Lists at the same time! Here's the SSL Secure URL for making your Contribution: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your Support!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: fabric question
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Since the list is exceptionally quiet and I asked this question of a friend and didn't get an answer I'll throw it out to the list. My 3 covering manuals and 43-13 and Bingelis all say fabric needs to be "overlapped" 2" on leading edges and 1" everywhere else. Nowhere do they say anything about glueing it down to the wood where there is no "overlap" like at the forward end of the turtle deck, the front end of the fuselage, the area around my bellcrank access hatch etc. My manuals avoid this like it never happens. Is there a specified width of glue area that the end of a piece of fabric must be cemented down to so that the shrinking doesn't pull it loose. I'm not covering yet but while I'm doing the wood work is a good time to know how wide an area I'll need later on. Seems I've seen 2" somewhere but I can't find it now. Thanks Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craigo" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: fabric question
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Ed - It is generally accepted (and is in my older Polyfiber manual) that you need at least 1" glued down to the base material in those areas. If you want a neater job, cover the whole of the base material at the front of the turtle deck, and the whole width of the former material elsewhere (the firewall metal will cover all of the front). The fabric to fabric joins also need to be 1", over structure, and stringers do not count as structure. Fortunately in the Piet, there are no stringers as such, unless you count the ones in the turtledeck, but you wouldn't want an overlap there anyway. On small fuselages such as the Piet, I've covered the bottom with one piece, then wrapped fabric completely from the bottom longeron on one side to the other, over the top. However you do it, the modern fabrics are so nice that it will come out as a terrific job, and you will be proud of it. Craig Lake Worth, FL Bakeng Duce NX96CW PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fabric question
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Ed, I can only answer on how it pertains to Poly Fiber, but here goes. On an overlap, on say the trailing edge, only glue the overlap itself to the frame. The same with the leading edge. Then when one side is done, tighten the fabric to only about 225/250 to get all the wrinkles out of the large side so the other overlap has a smooth area to glue to. The turtledeck doesn't need an overlap, just secure with glue, the fwd about 1", and after tightening the fabric, by putting on the poly brush, this soaks thru and completes the bond in the large area. Very Important!!!!! any large area of plywood like leading edge or turtledeck MUST be coated with at least 2 coats of poly brush before fabric is put on. If not you can never fill the weave and You'll be plagued with air bubbles later. Also, I could never get used to the process of putting raw glue to the wood and laying fabric into it. I used the method used in Super Flyte process where two coats of glue are put where the overlaps will be, then after the fabric is layed on exactly where you want it, and held with clothes pins or clamps, You "strike thru" with MEK ( with a small amount of glue mixed in) and with some light rubbing , the glue reactivates and oozes thru the fabric. Lot more pleasant way to do it. Just remember that the overlaps on the trailing edge don't have to go over and under. The lower can wrap to the top with a one inch glued portion traveling 1" fwd on the trailing edge, and the top piece just has to go to the trailing edge and not under. rule of thumb would to not glue anything on the finished surface that will be tightened later, so it can move around during tightening walt NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric question > > > Since the list is exceptionally quiet and I asked this question of a > friend and didn't get an answer I'll throw it out to the list. My 3 covering > manuals and 43-13 and Bingelis all say fabric needs to be "overlapped" 2" > on leading edges and 1" everywhere else. Nowhere do they say anything about > glueing it down to the wood where there is no "overlap" like at the forward > end of the turtle deck, the front end of the fuselage, the area around my > bellcrank access hatch etc. My manuals avoid this like it never happens. Is > there a specified width of glue area that the end of a piece of fabric must > be cemented down to so that the shrinking doesn't pull it loose. I'm not > covering yet but while I'm doing the wood work is a good time to know how > wide an area I'll need later on. Seems I've seen 2" somewhere but I can't > find it now. Thanks Ed > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Subject: Re: fabric question
Thanks Craig and Walt for the great replies on the fabric question. I guess I'm okay because I put 2" minmum of plywood in those areas....Then I started to wonder about it. Walt , are you in the air yet?? Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fabric question
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Ed, Technically I was. Was doing Faster and faster taxis when at 40mph, and half throttle, I was flying. Once over the shock, went and did it 2 more times on purpose. After about 12 times, your head gets muddy, and it's time to quit. If the nice weather comes back, I'll be there. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabric question > > Thanks Craig and Walt for the great replies on the fabric question. I > guess I'm okay because I put 2" minmum of plywood in those areas....Then > I started to wonder about it. Walt , are you in the air yet?? > Ed > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.)
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Subject: Re: fabric question
Wow...Congratulations Walt....I still have trouble with the concept of flight at 40 MPH....And at half throttle no less....Awesome. Good luck with the rest of your flight testing. Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Model A
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Dan I have not finished my Model B engine for my Piet. but I am a Model AA truck and Model A car fan as well as a Piet builder. The A engine is 200 cu.in. displacement and depending on how well you do your research and building it is capable of producing a good 50 to 75 hp. One of the neat things about it as opposed to modern engine conversions (I'm not knocking you corvair guys) is that it produces its power at the right rpm for a direct drive prop. Check around for engines with your local Model A Ford Club. They will most likely be excited about your engine idea and know where to get parts. The engine suffers from small ports and being a flat head, better breathing is the single biggest power improvement you can make to an A. The B engine is the same displacement and appearance but has a stouter crank. This allows for drilling the crank for pressure oiling of the rods. Rods, pistons valves and bearings can all be updated to modern specs. Creative weight saving methods, one of which is getting rid of the heavy splash oiling system pan and using a Dan Price or Brumfield aluminum head you can actually get close to air-cooled engine weight. But if not, the wing further forward on an A Piet looks better to me. The engine is only as good as the sum of its parts so if you choose it, do it right! In Bernard Pietenpols day A and B engines were fresh and plentiful. Not so now but we can upgrade them with technology. Best of Luck John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of ZigoDan(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A Are there very many builders using the Model A? I am planing on using an A engine myself. Can someone give me some insight on known pro's & con's. Dan Ardmore, OK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: flying wires
Date: Nov 05, 2002
Hey All I've got the one piece wing mounted on the fuselage and am working on attaching the flying struts. Will the length of the flying wires change drasticly as I jocky the wing for balancing? I am planning on using cable clamps temporarily until I figure it out a little closer. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Ford A engine
Date: Nov 06, 2002
John wrote: >The A engine is 200 cu.in. displacement and depending on how well you >do your research and building it is capable of producing a good 50 to >75 hp. One of the neat things about it as opposed to modern engine >conversions (I'm not knocking you corvair guys) is that it produces >its power at the right rpm for a direct drive prop. To me, the Ford-powered Piet is the quintessential example of the marque, and has to be the most attractive and appealing setup of all. Absolutely beautiful, even with the wackiness of having a radiator smack-dab in front of you. Ask most any homebuilder to picture a Pietenpol in his/her mind and 99% will instantly visualize something like Frank Pavliga's "Sky Gypsy". In case you haven't already found this site- http://users.aol.com/bpanews/ford.html check it out; there's lots of info on the Ford engine, both technical and general. Oh, and check out the motto at the bottom of the page: "Real FBOs Carry Prestone" ;o) That said, I will add that even a "basic" air-cooled 164 cu. in. Corvair conversion develops at least 50% more power than the mighty A, eliminates the fussiness of water cooling, probably costs less, and (I'm not knocking you A guys) develops its power at the right RPM for a direct drive prop! Chevies rule ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2002
From: javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ford A engine
Hi friends I don't want any polemic about the engines , but if Mr Pietenpol change his Ford A with a Corvair should be a razon, just for coment, i don't know about the Ford A engine and my experience with Corvair was a little (my father had a old 1961 Corvair) that car always has problems with the engine, i think that the problem was to get right parts here in Mexico, but whit the engine that i want to use i have no problems, very simple engine to work, after to asemble it, it start very fine, with a homemade 66*38 it can run static at 3200 whitout problems, i don't have yet the weight, but it no use water,radiator,etc. less weight..and less parts that would fail. about the price, check this.. engine (junk at El Paso,TX) $100.00, pistons, rings and parts $700.00, machine shop $120.00, cam work (at Delta) $47.00. Cessna 150 carb $150.00. the total cost for the basic engine whitout shippings will be about $1,300.00, .(i am working on alternator brakets). not bad for an engine that looks like a real airplane engine. Saludos desde Mexico Javier Cruz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: flying wires
Date: Nov 06, 2002
Dick, Just went through this about a month ago. I had set up mine with cabane struts straight up from longerons. Then found the weight too far aft. Moved the wing leading edge back exactly 3", and I think it was only about 10 full turns on the turnbuckles on the wing struts. I used the long turnbuckles, which have alot of travel. If you are too, just make the cable going to the front fuse fitting slightly longer than the rear, just in case. I still had to remake the tube supports going from leading edge to engine mount over again ( about 1 3/4" longer). Still all this was the easy part. The hard part was remaking/modifing the cowling for strut clearance, and new holes for cross cabling and control cable clearance. by the way, did mine all right to the plans, A-65 with engine mount extended about 2", and put in the nose tank (which saved me in the W&B.) I weigh 210# walt NX140DL (north NJ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: flying wires > > Hey All > I've got the one piece wing mounted on the fuselage and am working on attaching the flying struts. Will the length of the flying wires change drasticly as I jocky the wing for balancing? I am planning on using cable clamps temporarily until I figure it out a little closer. > Dick N. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: three point or wheel landing
Date: Nov 06, 2002
I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like I was taking the video, and tried to figure out how you land) anyone, fill me in. please. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 06, 2002
Subject: Re: three point or wheel landing
Walt, Congrats on getting it off the ground. Hope you can continue to get it back down. My test pilot, Mr. Edwin Johnson, has about 10 hrs on 41CC and seems to be having a ball. He laid out a testing program and is following it accurately. I might suggest you contact him for your questions on various landing techniques. Without his permission, I'm giving you his e mail address. elj(at)shreve.net. He's a great guy and a damn good pilot. Good flying Corky, still in La ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: three point or wheel landing
Date: Nov 06, 2002
Hi Walt, For what it's worth, I've flown two Air Campers, a Pietenpol and a GN-1. I did full stall landings in both, with no difficulty (other than trying to land the Pietenpol about 3' off the ground). Rick Durden has a good article on this very subject in this past Monday's AvWeb. It is at: http://www.avweb.com/articles/lounge/tpl0054.html. If you don't subscribe to AvWeb, you should. It's free, and has good coverage of general aviation issues. It also occasionally has articles about building a Pietenpol by Matt Paxton. These can be found at: http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet1/, http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet2/, http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet3/, and http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet4/. Good luck, Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: three point or wheel landing I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like I was taking the video, and tried to figure out how you land) anyone, fill me in. please. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 06, 2002
Subject: Re: three point or wheel landing
Walt, I am not much of an expert, but I always preferred full stall three point landings in a tail wheel bird. #1 your going as slow as possible, #2 it has quit flying, this helps just in case you let it get ahead of you. Ground loops are always best at slow speed. Just remember it starts to porpoise freeze the stick al the way back. Have fun and be safe. Most of all just fly the bird naturally try not to think to much about it. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 2002
Subject: Re: flying wires
In a message dated 11/5/02 9:56:15 PM Central Standard Time, horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: << Will the length of the flying wires change drasticly as I jocky the wing for balancing? >> Dick, when I moved my wing back to get the C.G. right, I had to shorten two of them, and make two new ones. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com>
Subject: Ford A engine
Date: Nov 07, 2002
Just as a side note on engines....a friend and myself had started our projects and figured on standard aircraft engines. Went to Brodhead to specifically watch/compare the different engine choices and came back home to revamp the fuselages for Model-A engines. We both agreed on this after watching the different ships performing, taking rides in different configurations and talking to the owner/operators. Many engines will work and I think someone already hit on this point but - I'll take a well converted Model-A over any poorly rebuilt engine of any sort. It all comes down to whether the man doing the conversion/rebuild knows his groceries or not. I've owned a Franklin powered Piet and had a ball in it. I think I'd enjoy flying a Pietenpol if it were powered with an anti-gravity fusion generator pump thing-a-ma-jig. That is, as long as it keeps running! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2002
From: Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net>
Subject: three point or wheel landing
Walt, everytime I see this question I smile because it is like that age-old debate regarding approaches, as to attitude and power, and which controls speed and which controls rate of descent. (Without inciting, hopefully, a three-month debate on this one, when one is changed the other generally must be changed somewhat also, so it is a combination.) The three-point vs. wheel landings fall in a similar category, being hotly debated (just experienced this on the rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup) with good points given for each. In this treatise [;)] consider that three-point and stall landings are the same thing. As a CFI I suppose I am required to say that the FAA believes that wheelies are good in high winds and gusting conditions since the rudder remains effective longer and they believe there is more positive control in such conditions. Take that or leave it for what it is. Some airplanes, because of the wing incidence angle and other aerodynamic peculiararities favor wheel landings (C190/C195, Beach 18's, for example). In my opinion, sink rate and weight of plane is a large factor. My Maule, for instance, sinks well and even though I practice wheelies, feel that the the three-point landings are probably adequate for all circumstances. (Incidentally, I _always_ teach wheel landings when giving tailwheel checkouts, unless prohibited by manufacturer.) Now for the Piet... I've done both three-point and wheelies in Corky's plane and find both easy to do. The wheel landings are uneventful if you simply cut power on touchdown and a very small amount of forward pressure, like you would do on any wheel landing. (Other's techniques may vary.) I decided to make sure of wheel landings since the Piet _is_ influenced by wind gusts because of it's light weight, and I thought they might prove useful in less than 'ideal circumstances'. :) To me, this plane flys similarly to a lighter weight J-3. Most long-time Cub drivers have always used the wheel landings to advantage, both for visibility and gusts when landing. I now must admit that I favor three-point landings in most planes and would probably do more of them in the Piet. As someone already pointed out, you _are_ going rather slowly in that landing and unless gusts are trying to force the plane back into the air, it is easily controllable. (One bush pilot technique is to come in like a stall landing and then force the plane on its wheels after touchdown with forward pressure. This might be a resource if gusts tend to effect the plane when landing.) Walt, there certainly isn't any right or wrong answer to this and you might be wise to practice both and decide with which you feel most comfortable. There are a lot of different techniques used in landings which achieve great results, so try different things to decide which you like and, most importantly, which are the safest for you. (But stay on the rudders! haahaa) I certainly am still in the learning stages with Corky's plane regarding landings and varying wind/weather conditions, so hopefully might have more information later. Be flexible in your outlooks and be safe in your flying. ...Edwin > > > I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather > closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full > stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~ ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~ ~ ~ ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~ ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~ ~ for there you have been, there you long ~ ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2002
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying...
Dear Listers, First, I'd like say *thank you* to everyone that's already made a Contribution to this year's List Fund Raiser! Thank you! If you haven't already made a Contribution, won't you take a movement and show your support for these valuable services? Since there's no advertising or other forms of direct commercialism on the forums to support the Lists, its soley YOUR GENEROSITY that keeps them running!! Won't please take a minute and make a Contribution via the SSL secure web site via Credit Card, Paypal, or personal check. Here's the URL: http://www.matronics.com/contributions This year, I've been getting some *really* nice comments from Contributors and I thought I'd pass along a few of them below. What does the List mean to *you*? Thank you for your support!! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator _________________ What your fellow Listers are saying... _________________ ...great service!! Greg B. They have been a great assistance to me in building my RV-8. Kevin H. ...very much appreciated. Donald M. Great site... Angus F. ...invaluable resource. Ronald C [The List] has played a big part in continuing my project at those times when I got stuck for some reason. Jeff D. Although I am only a reader, I find the list very helpful. Oswaldo F. The lists are a fantastic resource and are helping me very much... Kenyon B. The list is part of my life. Ron C. The CD will free up some hard disk space on my personal PC. Jeff D. ...unbelievably useful. Dan O. ...dependable and valued source of builder information. Jerry C. My daily lifeline! Owen B. ...frequently get questions answered on the List. Billy W. Don't know how any first-time builder could get by without the lists. Rick R. ...great source of information and motivation. Jef V. Super resource! David P. The information presented is very helpful to the building process. James B. Wonderful Service! Wendell D. The lists are great! F. Robert M. ...very valuable to this builder. William C. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: three point or wheel landing
Date: Nov 07, 2002
Thanks Edwin, That was very informative. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edwin Johnson" <elj(at)shreve.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: three point or wheel landing > > Walt, everytime I see this question I smile because it is like that > age-old debate regarding approaches, as to attitude and power, and which > controls speed and which controls rate of descent. (Without inciting, > hopefully, a three-month debate on this one, when one is changed the other > generally must be changed somewhat also, so it is a combination.) > > The three-point vs. wheel landings fall in a similar category, being hotly > debated (just experienced this on the rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup) > with good points given for each. In this treatise [;)] consider that > three-point and stall landings are the same thing. > > As a CFI I suppose I am required to say that the FAA believes that > wheelies are good in high winds and gusting conditions since the rudder > remains effective longer and they believe there is more positive control > in such conditions. Take that or leave it for what it is. > > Some airplanes, because of the wing incidence angle and other aerodynamic > peculiararities favor wheel landings (C190/C195, Beach 18's, for example). > > In my opinion, sink rate and weight of plane is a large factor. My Maule, > for instance, sinks well and even though I practice wheelies, feel that > the the three-point landings are probably adequate for all circumstances. > (Incidentally, I _always_ teach wheel landings when giving tailwheel > checkouts, unless prohibited by manufacturer.) > > Now for the Piet... I've done both three-point and wheelies in Corky's > plane and find both easy to do. The wheel landings are uneventful if you > simply cut power on touchdown and a very small amount of forward pressure, > like you would do on any wheel landing. (Other's techniques may vary.) I > decided to make sure of wheel landings since the Piet _is_ influenced by > wind gusts because of it's light weight, and I thought they might prove > useful in less than 'ideal circumstances'. :) To me, this plane flys > similarly to a lighter weight J-3. Most long-time Cub drivers have always > used the wheel landings to advantage, both for visibility and gusts when > landing. > > I now must admit that I favor three-point landings in most planes and > would probably do more of them in the Piet. As someone already pointed > out, you _are_ going rather slowly in that landing and unless gusts are > trying to force the plane back into the air, it is easily controllable. > > (One bush pilot technique is to come in like a stall landing and then > force the plane on its wheels after touchdown with forward pressure. This > might be a resource if gusts tend to effect the plane when landing.) > > Walt, there certainly isn't any right or wrong answer to this and you > might be wise to practice both and decide with which you feel most > comfortable. There are a lot of different techniques used in landings > which achieve great results, so try different things to decide which you > like and, most importantly, which are the safest for you. (But stay on the > rudders! haahaa) > > I certainly am still in the learning stages with Corky's plane regarding > landings and varying wind/weather conditions, so hopefully might have more > information later. Be flexible in your outlooks and be safe in your > flying. > > ...Edwin > > > > > > > I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather > > closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full > > stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~ > ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~ > ~ ~ > ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~ > ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~ > ~ for there you have been, there you long ~ > ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 2002
Subject: NPRM
Pieters, Here I go again, same song, same tune, same verse. The letter is self explainatory. U S Dept of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration The Honorable Jim McCrery ( La 7th Dist) Member, U S House of Rep Dear Congressman McCrery: Thank you for your letter of Oct 2 on behalf of Mr. Claude M Corbett of Shreveport. Mr. Corbett requests your support and initiative to persuade the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) "to expedite the effectiveness of the Sport Pilot category." Your constituent indicates that he is a long time commercial and military pilot who has never had an accident. He also indicates that he feels perfectly capable of flying his Pietenpol Air Camper but is not lawfully allowed to do so, because he cannot obtain an FAA airman medical certificate. The FAA's Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) "Certification of Aircraft and Airmen for the Operation of Light-Sport Aircraft" proposes for "sport pilots" an alternative means of demonstrating an acceptable level of medical fitness. This proposal also incorporates, in part, an existing FAA regulation that requires airmen, even those not required to hold an FAA medical certificate, to refrain from flying when they know or have reason to know that they are not medically capable of flying. The FAA is currently analyzing more than 2,500 comments received to this February 2002 proposal and is working to issue a final rule by late 2003 If you or your staff need further assistance, please contact Mr. David Balloff, Assistant Administrator for Government and Industry Affairs, at (202) 267-3277. Sincerely, Jon L Jordan, M.D. Federal Air Surgeon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, what do you think about that reply. Did you get that "late 2003". Bet next year they will begin defering it until after the elections of 04. Are we suppose to believe Dr Jordan is busting his A-- to pass something which will DECREASE his authority. No way folks. I still smell a bunch of beauro skunks in D C. Sorry to bore the list with this but I really wish more of you would become obnoxious and bug you politicos on this subject. I'm not getting anxious but my time is about to run out. Corky in La where politics are really going to pop for the next 30 days ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: three point or wheel landing
Date: Nov 07, 2002
Edwin Thank you for your input to the list. Corky, thanks for introducing Edwin to us. You have a good test pilot. I recently moderated a discussion at the CAPA conference on the pros and cons of flying museum aircraft. CAPA (Canadian Aeronautical Preservation Association) an organization of Aircraft Museums from coast to coast in Canada. We are doing a pretty good job it seems of preserving aircraft but not as good a job of preserving the skills required to fly them. Edwin your thoughts on the matter line up fairly closely with those expressed at the conference. We need more competent tail dragger pilots, so Keep Building Piets guys! John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Edwin Johnson Subject: Pietenpol-List: three point or wheel landing Walt, everytime I see this question I smile because it is like that age-old debate regarding approaches, as to attitude and power, and which controls speed and which controls rate of descent. (Without inciting, hopefully, a three-month debate on this one, when one is changed the other generally must be changed somewhat also, so it is a combination.) The three-point vs. wheel landings fall in a similar category, being hotly debated (just experienced this on the rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup) with good points given for each. In this treatise [;)] consider that three-point and stall landings are the same thing. As a CFI I suppose I am required to say that the FAA believes that wheelies are good in high winds and gusting conditions since the rudder remains effective longer and they believe there is more positive control in such conditions. Take that or leave it for what it is. Some airplanes, because of the wing incidence angle and other aerodynamic peculiararities favor wheel landings (C190/C195, Beach 18's, for example). In my opinion, sink rate and weight of plane is a large factor. My Maule, for instance, sinks well and even though I practice wheelies, feel that the the three-point landings are probably adequate for all circumstances. (Incidentally, I _always_ teach wheel landings when giving tailwheel checkouts, unless prohibited by manufacturer.) Now for the Piet... I've done both three-point and wheelies in Corky's plane and find both easy to do. The wheel landings are uneventful if you simply cut power on touchdown and a very small amount of forward pressure, like you would do on any wheel landing. (Other's techniques may vary.) I decided to make sure of wheel landings since the Piet _is_ influenced by wind gusts because of it's light weight, and I thought they might prove useful in less than 'ideal circumstances'. :) To me, this plane flys similarly to a lighter weight J-3. Most long-time Cub drivers have always used the wheel landings to advantage, both for visibility and gusts when landing. I now must admit that I favor three-point landings in most planes and would probably do more of them in the Piet. As someone already pointed out, you _are_ going rather slowly in that landing and unless gusts are trying to force the plane back into the air, it is easily controllable. (One bush pilot technique is to come in like a stall landing and then force the plane on its wheels after touchdown with forward pressure. This might be a resource if gusts tend to effect the plane when landing.) Walt, there certainly isn't any right or wrong answer to this and you might be wise to practice both and decide with which you feel most comfortable. There are a lot of different techniques used in landings which achieve great results, so try different things to decide which you like and, most importantly, which are the safest for you. (But stay on the rudders! haahaa) I certainly am still in the learning stages with Corky's plane regarding landings and varying wind/weather conditions, so hopefully might have more information later. Be flexible in your outlooks and be safe in your flying. ...Edwin > > > I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather > closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full > stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~ ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~ ~ ~ ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~ ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~ ~ for there you have been, there you long ~ ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: NPRM
Date: Nov 07, 2002
Hey Corky Maybe you should bunk in with your kin at Calgary. We have a Recreational Pilots permit here in Canada that allows for the type of flying you want to do. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: NPRM Pieters, Here I go again, same song, same tune, same verse. The letter is self explainatory. U S Dept of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration The Honorable Jim McCrery ( La 7th Dist) Member, U S House of Rep Dear Congressman McCrery: Thank you for your letter of Oct 2 on behalf of Mr. Claude M Corbett of Shreveport. Mr. Corbett requests your support and initiative to persuade the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) "to expedite the effectiveness of the Sport Pilot category." Your constituent indicates that he is a long time commercial and military


October 04, 2002 - November 07, 2002

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cv