Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cv
October 04, 2002 - November 07, 2002
YF-16 Prototype prior to the first flight, which was to be conducted by the
company's Chief Test Pilot. Phil was supposed to accelerate down the runway
to 100knots, raise the nose, and then give aileron inputs so the flight
control engineers could verify that the gain was set correctly on the flight
control computer. It wasn't. The ailerons were much too sensitive and when
Phil gave a quick aileron input to the left, the plane rolled violently
left, wiping the Sidewinder missile off the wingtip. He immediately
corrected to the right, and got that missile too. He instantly decided that
this was going to hell in a hurry and punched the throttle into zone 5
afterburner and took off. He flew the airplane for about 15 minutes,
getting used to its dangerously sensitive ailerons (remember that a
production F-16 can roll at 540 degs. per second) and then executed a
successful landing.
He was given credit for saving the airplane by his quick thinking, but it
caused a problem for the public relations types. His boss was supposed to
make the first flight, but now Phil had already done that. Eventually they
called Phil's inadvertant flight "Flight Number Zero" so his boss could have
flight number one. Amongst us engineers, however, Phil's flight became
known as the "High Altitude Taxi" test.
When it comes time to test fly my Piet, I will try my best to "plan the
flight and fly the plan", but if I get into a situation where flying appears
to be less dangerous than say, running off the runway, I won't hesitate to
fly it.
Again, congratulations Corky.
Jack
Corky wrote:
>According to my test pilot, he was intending to do some runway taxi
>runs when 41CC lifted from the runway and he could only follow it's
>lead and fly the pattern.
Then your test pilot wasn't the pilot-in-command, was he?
As much as anyone, I long for the moment when I make the first flight in my
homebuilt. It's something I think about very often, and it's the carrot
that dangles out there every time I look at the plans, parts, and disarray
in the shop. However, I've read enough to realize that "just going for it"
on your first flight can cost you your hiney and all your hard work. More
than that, it can cost all the rest of us our hineys and our hard work
because folks think of "those handmade little airplanes" as being dangerous
and that we shouldn't be up there playing with non-certified toys. Just
think of the newspaper stories you've seen where some guy drills it in on
his first flight because he "just went for it" rather than carefully shaking
down the bird a step at a time.
Plan your test flights, then fly your test plans. Your test pilot may have
winked at you as you pulled the chocks, and everything turned out
marvelously, but just think of the possibilities if he had found that
something wasn't quite right 200 ft. up rather than just rolling down the
runway on a fast taxi.
End of lecture. I will have a hard time sticking to a regimented flight
test sequence when that moment comes, but believe me- you will hear me
yelling "waaaahhhoooooo!" for miles around when it actually happens.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Subject: | Re: Fw: Fw: FW: Ruling |
Fantastik Corky. I worked on mine till 11:30 last night ( my wife left to
visit our daughter for a week - NOW I'll get some real work done.) I am
going as fast as I can. Unfortunately, I am picky and that ain't too
fast...
Ted in Naples
By the way, how was he flying with Lilly aiming at you? Didn't you get hit?
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
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Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fw: Fw: FW: Ruling
>
> Hey Dick,
> I'm finally coming down to earth. Last evening just about sunset she flew.
It
> was probably the most beautiful sight I've ever seen other than the first
> time I looked at Isabelle. My test pilot came out after work, taxied a
little
> on one taxi way then said he felt like making some taxi tests on the
active.
> We went to that side of the airport to get a better view. He ran up for
about
> a minute and then went on the active for more taxi tests but gave too much
> throttle and in about 150 ft he realized he was flying amd he did'nt stop.
> Beautiful climb out, not steep, nice left turn, it sounded great on
downwind,
> nice decending turns to base and final and a beautiful 3 pointer on the
> numbers,
> . Isabelle and I were beside ourselves. One of the greatest moments of my
> life. Worth all the work, frustration and all. He didn't stop but took off
> again and made a much steeper climb out. Went to pattern before making his
> first turn. He made three pattern rounds before he had to stop for
dfarkness.
> Said he had to hold back pressure on the stick at cruise. Hell, he didn't
> weigh but 135 lbs so I think the W & B is good. Everything else he said
felt
> perfect. Rudder, ailerons easy and responsive. Elevator on flare was very
> effective, I particularly watched that on all his landings.
> Keep working, its all worthwhile. I think I'll share this with the list
once
> more.
> Corky in La still waiting for the wind and rain
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Fw: Fw: FW: Ruling |
Ted,
About 5 mph at sunset when he lifted off. It was absolutely beautiful. You
can understand but if you ain't built one you can't.
We had a light rain yesterday but not even a rain actually, just enough to
make you use your wipers.
I'm trying to pull out every stop to get something done so I can LEGALLY sit
in that rear hole andfly my plane. It's tough having to watch someone do my
work for me.
We'll get these things together some day.
Jim Cooper evacuated to Dallas and I haven't heard from him today. I talked
to one of my tenants on my 80 acres at Intracoastal City, thats where the eye
came ashore, and he told me that Abbeville and all Vermilion Parish is under
marshal law. There was a tugboat tied up to a lifted spud barge on my bayou
bank where he rode it out. He was talking to my friend on cell phone during
the entire storm. My land went under about 2 ft of water with the surge. The
press is not allowed in Vermilion Parish so that's why no one knows about
it's devastation.Intracoastal City is wiped out.
Keep in touch and thanks for your interest in 41CC
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
Subject: | Re: first flight |
>
Pieters, test pilots and especially Oscar Z.,
Please don't take my statement that the airplane will decide when it's ready to
fly as saying you don't need a test plan. A very good general plan is to fully
explore a new airplane's ground handling before, well before, you start feeling
it out in the air. You really need to explore all the nuances of taxi from zero
up through wheel landing speeds, starting with the slowest speeds first, of
course. At some point, as you perform your taxi tests faster and faster, you
are going to be flying. But, at that point, you already have a flight test plan
ready and waiting.
Mike Hardaway
> > Jack Phillips wrote:
> > When it comes time to test fly my Piet, I will try my best to "plan the
> > flight and fly the plan", but if I get into a situation where flying appears
>
> > to be less dangerous than say, running off the runway, I won't hesitate to
> > fly it.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Subject: | Re: Test Piloting |
All of this extended discussion about the proper way to conduct our first
test flight has raised a number of points that I do not think are all that
relevant.
Someone on here mentioned "all of those crashes we keep hearing about where
the owner just goes for it." I don't know about the rest of you, but I have
not heard many such stories, if any. The only example given was of someone
who nearly lost it because he lacked the tailwheel experience. If you are
not experienced enough to fly the airplane in the first place, all of the
taxi-ing in the world won't help you.
The example of the F-16 test flight is not relevant because we are not test
flying an unproven aircraft that no one has any idea of its flight
characteristics. The only question is weight and balance, and that should
be worked out beforehand. A Piet is not so complex that a crossed wire in a
3-inch wiring bundle is going to make the ailerons work opposite.
Taking ANY tailwheel airplane and accelerating it to lift the tail, and then
chopping the power and setting the tail back down is begging for trouble,
i.e. a groundloop. That is not a natural maneuver, and it is not anything
like a normal landing. I cringe when I watch people testing their new
airplanes running up and down the runway doing this and rearly losing
control every time.
I have only test flown homebuilts and antique restorations where I was
involved with the work, never where someone else built it and asked me to
fly (nor do I think I ever would). When I am convinced that I have looked
at every important component and verified that everything is correct, and I
have had friends who I trust doubly-verify that I have not missed anything,
I do "go for it." I only do enough taxi-ing to assure that the brakes work
and to become familiar with the way it taxis. I believe that the most
likely failure on a first flight is an engine failure, and I think these are
the majority of the first-flight accidents you do hear of. For this reason,
once on the runway I go for altitude (except a brief pause right after
takeoff to verify the flight controls work like I expect them to. With
altitude, everything else can work itself out.
I am not advocating haste, or a lack of caution. If something is going to
fall off of the airplane, you screwed up in the building process,or at least
the preflight inspection. If the airplane is well-built, is built to (or in
all important areas to) the plans, and has been thoroughly inspected a few
million times by you and, hopefully, other knowledgable and trusted
individuals, there is no reason the airplane should not fly safely. The
only other question is whether you, the pilot, is qualified to fly the
plane. If not, the experience needs to be gained in something else, not
taxi-ing your new child.
Gene Rambo
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
Pieters,
I have been following the discussion about the first flight on the list and would
like to offer the following for discussion.
Tom Wallis, the guy that did the first flight on my Piet has been a professional
engineering test pilot for over 30 years. He has over 11,000 hours of test
flights, worked over 16 years for Cessna, has done "known icing" flights for Marchatti
in Italy, did the initial flights and testing of the two recent Sikorsky
S-38 reproductions noted in "Sport Aviation" and other publications and has
tested more than 115 different types. As a good friend, he also helped in the
building of my Piet. (along with many others)
We had much discussion about test flying, and when I suggested that ground tests
including testing at a fast taxi up to take off speed could be more of a hazard
to the plane (and pilot) than the results were worth, he agreed. The thought
is that although taxi tests to check ground handling and brakes are important,
running up and down the runway at ever higher speeds simply subject the plane
to a greater hazard of an accident. If the plane has the proper center of
gravity, the control throws are set properly, run up is good, one should simply
feed throttle and go. It's better to explore controllability up away from
the earth than be on the ground at high speed. "After all, an accident doesn't
happen until you hit the ground!"
What do you think?
John Dilatush, NX114D
Salida, Colorado.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Test Piloting |
>
>All of this extended discussion about the proper way to conduct our first
>test flight has raised a number of points that I do not think are all that
>relevant.
>
>Someone on here mentioned "all of those crashes we keep hearing about where
>the owner just goes for it." I don't know about the rest of you, but I have
>not heard many such stories, if any. The only example given was of someone
>who nearly lost it because he lacked the tailwheel experience. If you are
>not experienced enough to fly the airplane in the first place, all of the
>taxi-ing in the world won't help you.
Well group, I'm not at all qualified to comment on test flying. I'm still
trying to get the 'four basics' down and overcome what my CFI calls '45
years of reflexes that have NOTHING to do with flying a plane'.
As for 'all those crashes', I've heard unverified reports of 2 or three
over the years. However, there was a published report I saw somewhere in
the past year, may have been in Cy Galley's 'Experimenter' safety column,
where the builder was in a rush to get the plane in the air before sunset.
He & a friend had spent the day assembling the plane. He took off without
adequately checking control response. The ailerons were hooked up
backwards. He crashed & I think died. The point of the report was obvious -
take your time on your first pre-flight checkout. I also think that the
article made the point that it's plain foolish to spend all day doing final
assembly & then trying to fly. Wait for another day, if for no other reason
than to get over the tension & excitement of getting the plane ready to fly.
Like Gene, I'm going to go over every point before I even try to to taxi it
& then have someone else do the same.
Corky, I'll add my congratulations on your first flight. Sorry to hear
about your tenants down on the coast. We got the remains yesterday & that
was bad enough for my tastes, I don't miss living on a hurricane coast,
even if they don't understand barbeque up here!
Cheers!
Kip gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "George Allen" <GeorgeA(at)paonline.com> |
Subject: | Re: Two final words for awhile |
Corky, fortunately it started off a really good discussion. In the next year
or two I'll be thinking about test flying my Piet.
I hate waiting!
Good luck Corky.
George Allen
Harrisburg, PA
GeorgeA(at)PAonline.com
(Peitenpol builder)
>
> Pieters, Just a couple of points before I sine off this list for awhile.
> 1 I apologize to Matt and the list for the reply to Ted in Naples. I
thought
> it was a direct and not on line.
> 2 I will put my can opener in a safe place where I will forget and not
open
> anymore cans of Piet worms.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
Hi Everyone:
I am at the stage of pulling my fuselage together and am not sure how to proceed,
ie: what to do first and in what order.
I will have the torque tube done by the end of the week or sooner and know
it has to go in when the seat backs do, but did you all glue in the backs and
then the bottom or what.
I have built 2 X 4 L's with ply sides to keep the fuselage in alignment, but
should I glue on the 1/4" to the bottom and then pull it together or put in
the backs and then pull it together or what.
Could someone give me a construction order?
Dennis Engelkenjohn
ps.... it is a long fuselage model if it makes a difference.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Subject: | Re: fuselage order |
Dennis, The way I did it if I remember right, I jiged and clamped the front
of the fuse, putting in all of the cross braces
back to the rear seat where it starts to taper, then I pulled the tail
together. The floor went on after.
Make sure to use alignment marks and a midline for reference as your putting
it together.
I didn't put the sides on untill I had the controls in. Makes installation a
whole lot easier.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage order
>
> Hi Everyone:
>
> I am at the stage of pulling my fuselage together and am not sure how
to proceed, ie: what to do first and in what order.
> I will have the torque tube done by the end of the week or sooner and
know it has to go in when the seat backs do, but did you all glue in the
backs and then the bottom or what.
> I have built 2 X 4 L's with ply sides to keep the fuselage in
alignment, but should I glue on the 1/4" to the bottom and then pull it
together or put in the backs and then pull it together or what.
> Could someone give me a construction order?
> Dennis Engelkenjohn
> ps.... it is a long fuselage model if it makes a difference.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
Subject: | First test flights |
Gene Rambo has said it all. Listen to him.
Let me just add that you should use the longest runway available, even if
it means trucking to another airport. That assures some runway ahead of
you if you don't like what is happening (engine problems, primarily).
I was witness to a first flight here in Oshkosh, where a fellow was doing
his "high speed taxi tests" (we usually don't practice ditching with our
homebuilts, either) in his new Focke-Wulf fighter (tailwheel)
homebuilt. At full power, he suddenly found himself in a nose high
attitude and about 30 feet high. What to do? Chop the power! Rebuilding
took three years after he got put back together.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com> |
Ted B., "the Judge", GN-1 flier, Piet builder.......Randy Bruce is wondering why
you haven't contacted him re: painting your logo. He looked for you at Sun n
Fun but never saw you.
Don't Archive
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net> |
Oscar, (this is for you and anyone else who read the previous post)
(And thanks to Mike Cuy for helping set the record straight.)
I was Corky's test pilot.
I do not like retort with credentials, but my successful flying career,
experience, and wise decision making stand as my record. However, not
withstanding:
In Corky's euphoria, he rather made this as storybook rather than actual
fact and used a few words and phrases inappropriately. So you want the
real story which I wrote to Mike Cuy?
I made many taxi tests and after close visual inspection between Corky and
I, we corrected angles in the horizontal stab and looked closely at the
wash out/in of the wings before proceeding with further taxi tests. Corky
extended the arms on the control horns on the tailwheel and I did further
taxi testing, as well as full static runups to prove to myself that the
engine would develop recommended power (at least according to my memory of
the 17 years I owned a Luscombe with a 65hp Cont.).
Only then did I ask for the main runway and this, Oscar, was carefully
planned. I wanted to put the plane on the mains lift it off the ground to
see if the controls felt balanced and check to see if there were yaw or
control problems which I felt would prohibit further flight. The runway at
DTN is quite long and wide with a lot of real estate around, so my plan
was, of course, to abort at this point (say two feet off the ground) if
things didn't meet my expectations. The plane felt very comfortable and
the controls were balanced with no yaw problems and the engine was
developing recommended power, so I decided to continue with a standard
pattern as the tower had already cleared me, of course monitoring
especially carefully the whole time, the power plant.
So, Oscar, as you see this was very carefully planned and executed. Now
this might not have been how you would have performed the flight test, but
I'm sure there are many ways to do a flight test. I had a plan, and
carried it out as I planned it - the direct recommendation of the AC.
The one thing I've learned in my years as pilot is to provide yourself
with an 'out' - _always_. This I did and, thankfully, did not need to use
it for the plane flew absolutely beautifully and is a fine example of
Corky's workmanship. Obviously in the hours to come both he and I will
learn much of its manners.
So much for my defense, but I wanted you to have the story directly from
me. I must thank Mike Cuy for his wise counsel in several areas, and as I
told him, it doesn't matter how many hours you have or your experience
level, if you aren't willing to learn from others who have direct
experience with the plane or type of operation you are seeking, you will
probably regret not listening to them. :)
...Edwin
>
> Corky wrote:
>
> >According to my test pilot, he was intending to do some runway taxi
> >runs when 41CC lifted from the runway and he could only follow it's
> >lead and fly the pattern.
>
> Then your test pilot wasn't the pilot-in-command, was he?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
Subject: | Re: First test flights |
I don't know about saying it all, but Edwin's approach he laid out in his
post is exactly what I was trying to say, but not nearly as eloquently as he
did (and I am a lawyer, not that THAT means a lot). When you've done all
you can do inspection-wise, and it feels right after liftoff, it is better
to go for it than to keep scr**ing around in ground effect where you stand a
higher chance of damaging the airplane. In only intended my comments as a
response to the people who questioned whether it would have been proper to
spend more time doing taxi-tests to Corky's airplane.
Gene Rambo
----- Original Message -----
From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First test flights
>
> Gene Rambo has said it all. Listen to him.
>
> Let me just add that you should use the longest runway available, even if
> it means trucking to another airport. That assures some runway ahead of
> you if you don't like what is happening (engine problems, primarily).
>
> I was witness to a first flight here in Oshkosh, where a fellow was doing
> his "high speed taxi tests" (we usually don't practice ditching with our
> homebuilts, either) in his new Focke-Wulf fighter (tailwheel)
> homebuilt. At full power, he suddenly found himself in a nose high
> attitude and about 30 feet high. What to do? Chop the power! Rebuilding
> took three years after he got put back together.
>
> Doc Mosher
> Oshkosh USA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Howdy again, low 'n' slow fliers;
Edwin wrote:
>In Corky's euphoria, he rather made this as storybook rather than
>actual fact and used a few words and phrases inappropriately.
Aha! The real story emerges! There was never any doubt in my mind that
Corky did NOT just shove NX41CC out of the nest without any forethought.
His detailed and careful emails on this list have proven that if anything,
he is overly cautious about things. Had it been "the Fisherman" I would
have my doubts, but I knew the plane was airworthy and would do just fine,
and the "rest of the story" was what went on behind the scenes as Edwin did
all the preflight testing and all the checking and other "homework" to get
her ready for flight. (I just hope that Edwin gave at least one good Cajun
"aaaaayyeeeeee!" when the plane took wing.)
I guess the point of my email (and of the other concerned replies) is that
there are some folks out there who want to just "kick the tires and light
the fires" and take their new airplanes in the air first thing. The FAA has
signed off on their airworthiness, so why not? Speaking for myself, I'm a
mechanical and electrical engineer and have built the airplane to my own
personal satisfaction, and I will decide when she can fly because I'm a
licensed and rated pilot with the tailwheel time needed to do it, right?
But prudence dictates that we ease into the flight test plan, and Edwin and
Corky did just that. They just didn't let on what was going on behind the
scenes!
This Piet bunch sure is great!
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | Re: first flight |
Just had to go and mention the "fisherman", didn't you. Some of us are trying to
forget.
Larry Ragan
Jacksonville, Fl.
lragan(at)hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Trying to get log books in order for the big inspection day soon. What are you
guys stating as Vne?
And any other good stats that I'm overlooking.
thanks alot
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
The most common Vne I've seen is 120mph.
Kirk
>
>
>Trying to get log books in order for the big inspection day soon.
>What are you guys stating as Vne?
>And any other good stats that I'm overlooking.
>thanks alot
>walt
>NX140DL
>(north N.J.)
>
>
--
Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Thanks, Kirk.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet Vne?
<kirkh@unique-software.com>
>
> The most common Vne I've seen is 120mph.
>
> Kirk
>
> >
> >
> >Trying to get log books in order for the big inspection day soon.
> >What are you guys stating as Vne?
> >And any other good stats that I'm overlooking.
> >thanks alot
> >walt
> >NX140DL
> >(north N.J.)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Brants" <tmbrant(at)uswest.net> |
Subject: | Re: fuselage order |
I did mine similar to this except for having one of the sides on... Worked
great.
Tom B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuselage order
>
> Dennis, The way I did it if I remember right, I jiged and clamped the
front
> of the fuse, putting in all of the cross braces
> back to the rear seat where it starts to taper, then I pulled the tail
> together. The floor went on after.
> Make sure to use alignment marks and a midline for reference as your
putting
> it together.
> I didn't put the sides on untill I had the controls in. Makes installation
a
> whole lot easier.
> Carl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage order
>
>
>
> >
> > Hi Everyone:
> >
> > I am at the stage of pulling my fuselage together and am not sure
how
> to proceed, ie: what to do first and in what order.
> > I will have the torque tube done by the end of the week or sooner
and
> know it has to go in when the seat backs do, but did you all glue in the
> backs and then the bottom or what.
> > I have built 2 X 4 L's with ply sides to keep the fuselage in
> alignment, but should I glue on the 1/4" to the bottom and then pull it
> together or put in the backs and then pull it together or what.
> > Could someone give me a construction order?
> > Dennis Engelkenjohn
> > ps.... it is a long fuselage model if it makes a difference.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 10/7/02 6:01:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<< What are you guys stating as Vne? >>
The plans say HIGH SPEED - 90 M.P.H.
That's what I used for my Vne. The two things that always have concerned me
with this design, is control surface flutter, and aft C.G. condition.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
Wichita KS
p.s. I hope to see everyone at the Benton Fly - In, this saturday !!
Wouldn't that be something...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieter Aero Engineers,
Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on
the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
elevator bent downward correct this little problem?
Corky in La skyhigh
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mike Hardaway <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
Corky,
You're asking about a semi-permanent trim tab solution to a temporary trim
condition. To directly answer your question: Yes, a tab on the trailing edge of
the elevator would, if bent downward, reduce back pressure when your lightweight
test pilot is flying.
However, when any of the many things that affect center of gravity position
change, such as pilot weight or carrying a passenger, the amount of bending you
have on the tab will need to change.
Speed will also affect the desired trim setting. Your test pilot may have
needed back pressure at a slower speed, say 75 mph, but could find he needed a
significant amount of nose down pressure at a higher speed, like say 90 mph.
A better solution than a permanent trim tab could be an adjustable trim tension
spring setup like Mike Cuy drew up some time back. It would take over some of
the trim load and would be over-rideable when necessary.
If your test pilot finds there is always a need for back pressure on the stick
throughout the CG and speed envelopes, then a permanent tab, bent a little bit
at a time, can help ease the physical drain of holding that back pressure.
Mike Hardaway
Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Pieter Aero Engineers,
> Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on
> the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
>
> Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
> elevator bent downward correct this little problem?
>
> Corky in La skyhigh
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
wouldn't the better solution to a constant trim problem be to tweak the tail
wires to increase/decrease the incidence of the horizontal at the ends?
no ugly trim tab required.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Hardaway" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
>
> Corky,
> You're asking about a semi-permanent trim tab solution to a temporary trim
> condition. To directly answer your question: Yes, a tab on the trailing
edge of
> the elevator would, if bent downward, reduce back pressure when your
lightweight
> test pilot is flying.
> However, when any of the many things that affect center of gravity
position
> change, such as pilot weight or carrying a passenger, the amount of
bending you
> have on the tab will need to change.
> Speed will also affect the desired trim setting. Your test pilot may have
> needed back pressure at a slower speed, say 75 mph, but could find he
needed a
> significant amount of nose down pressure at a higher speed, like say 90
mph.
> A better solution than a permanent trim tab could be an adjustable trim
tension
> spring setup like Mike Cuy drew up some time back. It would take over
some of
> the trim load and would be over-rideable when necessary.
> If your test pilot finds there is always a need for back pressure on the
stick
> throughout the CG and speed envelopes, then a permanent tab, bent a little
bit
> at a time, can help ease the physical drain of holding that back pressure.
> Mike Hardaway
>
>
> Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Pieter Aero Engineers,
> > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back
pressure on
> > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
> >
> > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of
right
> > elevator bent downward correct this little problem?
> >
> > Corky in La skyhigh
> >
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
DJ that's the kind of engineering I wanted to hear about. Please take a
minute and return the wisdom I'll need to twick those wires and give me a
little theory too.
Thanks
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Corky--Since most pilots who will fly your plane in the future will be a
bit heavier than Edwin, I'd simply plunk a lead weight or something heavy
in your hatbox or area behind the pilot in the turtledeck area. Or strap
something behind the seat or inside the fuselage if you have a nice belly
access cover to reach your bellcrank/walking beam deal. You'd even use
less weight if you added some bolted to the tailwheel spring area or heck,
use nylon tye wraps to tie various wts. to the tailwheel area then have him
fly, land, try another til it's about right. I guess if would also help if
you just filled your tank to 1/2 instead of full. Ain't it FUN seeing it
flying ???????????
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
Corky...I believe it was Doug Bryant that said he tweaked his trim by
adusting the front Horizontal stabilizer turnbuckles which twists the
leading edge of the stabilizer up or down to trim the tail. If you tighten
the lowers and loosen the uppers a little at a time it should put down
pressure on the tail. Never done it, but I heard it works and it's not
permanant. Once the big guy gets to fly it it can be readusted. Just a
suggestion that may work. Ed G.
http://www.hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
Subject: | Need for trim tab |
Hi Corky and Isabelle -
It was really great to see you folks at Brodhead. It's nice to be able to
visualize you people when I read the Piet e-mails. Congratulations on
getting the Piet into the air! Reason enough for a fais dodo. My Cajun
implant is kicking in.
Concerning the longitudinal trim of your new and now-flying Pietenpol -
First of all, it sounds like with the slightly more substantial Corky in
the cockpit, your Piet comes out just about perfect for longitudinal
trim! Good job! However, Corky, you may want to adjust the number of
pennies you have in your pocket from day to day, depending on the adiabatic
lapse rate.
There are several longitudinal trim fixes that are available. You probably
won't need any, but some folks on the net may not know about them.
The "Wichita fix" (Chuck Gantzer) is to change the tension on the front
tail rigging wires. By loosening and tightening of the top and bottom
forward rigging wires on the leading edges of the stabilizers, the outboard
ends of the leading edges of the stabilizer can be slightly warped up or
down. Try to do them evenly, left and right. The wooden stabilizer will
warp easily, so use discretion on how much you can do.
Another method to use when there is chronic slight tailheaviness (but not
enough to justify changing wing position), the entire leading edge of the
stabilizer attachment can be raised slightly by putting a washer or two
between the stabilizer leading edge and the fuselage mounting pad.
Another method - A quick and simple method is to attach a simple trim tab
to the trailing edge of the elevator. Since most flying will be done with
Corky in the rear seat, set it for that and let any other pilots put up
with a slight out-of-trim condition. After you have decided just how much
trim you need (if any) with Corky flying, you can replace the trim tab with
a less visible correction. I always feel that an added stuck-on trim tab,
no matter what control surface it affects, is a visible admission of an
engineering error somewhere along the line.
Rather than screwing a trim tab onto the trailing edge, use a less visible
two or three inch long piece of small diameter aluminum or plastic tubing,
(depending on the amount of effect needed) taped lengthwise along the top
or bottom of the trailing edge. This is a cut and fit proposition. Use
masking tape to temporarily fasten the tube to the trailing edge and fly
the airplane for a while. The tube goes on the side of the elevator or
rudder or aileron where the trim tab would bent toward. Once the amount of
trailing edge airflow disruption has been established by shortening or
lengthening the tubing, the masking tape is replaced with fabric finishing
tape and glued into place and finished in the surface colors. It will
practically disappear. When applied to the bottom of the elevator the
tubing is invisible. When added to the top of the elevator, use a pair of
tubes taped to the inboard ends of both elevators. Then the fix looks like
"that's just the way a Piet is built."
Then there is the trim system that ties to the actual control stick and is
adjustable in flight. This usually consists of a screendoor
spring. Anchored at one end to a forward or rearward structure (depending
on whether the airplane is chronically tailheavy or noseheavy in flight),
the other end is attached to the control stick using a clamp around the
stick. The anchor point of the spring should be lower in the cockpit than
the stick attachment end. The stick attachment can be made adjustable by
sliding the stick attachment up or down the control stick, which stretches
the spring more or less. This is especially useful in Piets where fuel is
consumed from various tanks that are not on the CG. Corky, you may want
something like this after your Richard Bach long range tanks are
installed. There are several other such systems in use on flying Piets.
An important word of caution for those who have a really out of limits CG
problem upon assembly. These aerodynamic trim fixes are for very fine
tuning. They do not change the basic requirement of having your airplane
within loaded CG weight limits. If you are out of loaded CG range, make
the required structural changes. Move the engine or/and move the wing
before you try to fly.
I didn't mean to sound so pontifical, but we have a wide range of skills in
the Piet group. Once you hit the mark as closely as you have, Corky, then
go ahead and fine tune.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Thanks Ed,
We are flying it again tomorrow afternoon weather permitting and I believe
I'll just add a pound or two securely to the tail wheel spring and
experiment by degrees with this light test pilot.
Corky still in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
Corky,
I have 18 lbs of nose heaviness I'll trade you for 6 lbs of tail heaviness.
No boot however!
John
>
> Pieter Aero Engineers,
> Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure
on
> the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
>
> Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
> elevator bent downward correct this little problem?
>
> Corky in La skyhigh
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
Corky,
That exact thing cured the same problem on my Rag-A-Muffin ultralight
(made of wood and vaguely looks like a piet). Only it was not a small tab
mine is 12" x 4". I put it on the underside of the elevator.
Wayne McIntosh
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
>
> Pieter Aero Engineers,
> Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure
on
> the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
>
> Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
> elevator bent downward correct this little problem?
>
> Corky in La skyhigh
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
Corky,
Glad to hear that your test flying is going well.
For what it's worth, William Wynne had a trim adjustment wheel mounted to
the lower right side of the pilot's cockpit of his now-destroyed Piet (it
said TRIM in big block letters, with arrows for up & down adjustment &
cables went towards the rear of the plane). He did not have a trim tab on
his elevator, so I have no idea how he might have had it hooked up & I
didn't think to ask at the time.
Any comments gang?
Cheers,
Kip Gardner
>>
>> Pieter Aero Engineers,
>> Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure
>on
>> the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
>>
>> Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
>> elevator bent downward correct this little problem?
>>
>> Corky in La skyhigh
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
In a message dated 10/8/02 8:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:
<< Pieter Aero Engineers,
Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure on
the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >>
Corky,
Congrats on your flying Pietenpol !! I'm sure the elation you feel watching
'er in the air, will pale by comparison, when you fly 'er yourself !! Just
don't get too anxious...training is the key.
Flight Testing:
Here is what I did to correct the out of trim condition I had. As per Doug
Bryant's direction, I tweaked the leading edge of the horizontal stab, down,
to pitch the nose up, thus reducing the back pressure on the stick, required
to maintain level flight. I did this 3 or 4 times, test flying each time.
I loosened the top fwd turnbuckles about one turn (both sides equally) and
tightening the bottom fwd turnbuckles, and re-safteying them. Each time it
made a difference in pitch trim, but it still didn't seem to be enough, and
if you eyeball the leading edge, you can see it it tweaked down. I then
elected to try a trim tab. I used a piece of balsa wood (recovered from an
aileron from my vast collection of model airplane stuff), sanded a radius on
the thick portion to match the radius of the trailing edge of the elevators,
and taped them on the trailing edge of BOTH elevators, angled down about 20.
I used duct tape (90 mph tape) for the test phase, and tweaked it down a
tiny bit at a time, till I got it right. I then glued the tab on, and used
fabric to cover the tab. At high cruise speed, on pitch trim, she flys
almost hands off. Slower speeds she still requires a little back pressure.
I also had a left wing heavy condition. After 4 or 5 tests confirming that
it was not a torque thing going on (neutral thrust flight), and leveling the
plane and re-checking symmetry, I found I had to tweak the wing. To bring
the right wing back (lowering the leading edge), left wing forward (raising
the leading edge), with the cables between the lift struts, after loosening
all the hardware. All told, the Right wing tip was moved back about 1/4",
Left wing forward 1/4" (one quarter inch). Doesn't sound like much but it
made 90 % of the left wing heavy condition go away. I'll probably tweak it
again, just a tiny bit more. I've still got some gremlins in the
carburetor...damn them critters !! Every flight for me is a test flight, and
a training flight. I'm now ready to start streaching 'er legs. My longest
flight thus far has been 1.3 hrs. Now ready for 1.5 hr flight, and an 'Iron
Butt' award. Next summer, 'We' are going to fly to Broadhead, as well as
that other fly - in, to the North, then on to Wheeling, West Virginia (home
town). Gonna be quite an adventure !!
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Benton Fly - In Info |
In a message dated 10/8/02 7:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
KHallsten(at)governair.com writes:
<< What type of arrangements are there for lunch? Can we chip in money for
burgers, dogs and pop? >>
I've got 2 small grills for burgers & dogs. We'll just "Wing It". I hope
we can get a couple of 'Young Eagle Flights' in, with some of the local
pilots. Bring good weather with ya !!
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
I would guess that William's trim wheel cables went to the bell crank (
walking beam ?) Nose down to the lower side of the bell crank, nose up
cable to the top of the bell crank. He would have needed to have springs
in the final connection so he could manually over ride the trim system.
Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net> |
Subject: | Aero Engineers & Second Flight |
Thanks to all the many and varied responses to Corky's question regarding
trim, etc. The back pressure I am having to hold is somewhat considerable,
not allowing me to scratch my nose, while in cruise. :) But, then, my
weight is around 140 lbs.
The spring-trim, ala Mike Cuy, is probably the easiest idea for trim, but
we might need to use displaced weights, which he also suggested, for me as
opposed to Corky (who is a little heavier than I am).
We don't want to start twisting horiz stab wires if it will not accommodate
several weight pilots, so I am doing a lot of W&B figuring with a visual
instantaneous program I wrote on the computer.
But I really need to know what the balanced CG comes out with your planes
with one pilot and full of fuel. Doc Mosher wrote of (I believe) standards
in older documents:
>and 22% and 34% of the MAC for high wing monoplanes and biplanes.
This translates, if your datum is the leading edge, to 13.2" and
20.4". BP, as I remember, gave 21" as somewhat of an aft limit, which is
35% MAC.
With full fuel and my 140 lbs, the CG is 16.1" or 26.9 %MAC, which as you
can see is rather forward, hence back pressure needed on the stick.
With full fuel and a 195 lb pilot, the CG becomes 18.4 or 30.6% MAC.
My suspicion is that around 30% MAC (18") is ideal, but would like to hear
what others' CG at full fuel and pilot is. This will give us data to
effect changes which may be good for several different weight pilots.
For your further info, our empty with oil CG is: 631 lbs, 11.4", 18.9 %MAC.
SECOND FLIGHT:
Whew! You can read all of these and other posts and still not realize what
a beautiful flying plane a Pietenpol is until you've actually flown one!
The second flight proved the plane stable in all aspects with nice,
positive control in all maneuvers, which included steep turns, slow
flight, stalls. Yes, and it is fun to hear those flying wires whistle when
you slow it down. :) BP really did design a nice flying plane.
...Edwin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: W. Winn's trim |
>
>I would guess that William's trim wheel cables went to the bell crank (
>walking beam ?) Nose down to the lower side of the bell crank, nose up
>cable to the top of the bell crank. He would have needed to have springs
>in the final connection so he could manually over ride the trim system.
>Leon S.
Thanks Leon, that makes sense.
Cheers,
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
Fellow Pietenpol builders,
I have my fuselage glued up and am ready to fabricate the controls. Is
everyone using 4130 steel for that job?
Alex Sloan
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
>
> In a message dated 10/8/02 8:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
> Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:
>
> << Pieter Aero Engineers,
> Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back pressure
on
> the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
>
> Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of right
> elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >>
>
> Corky,
> Congrats on your flying Pietenpol !! I'm sure the elation you feel
watching
> 'er in the air, will pale by comparison, when you fly 'er yourself !!
Just
> don't get too anxious...training is the key.
> Flight Testing:
> Here is what I did to correct the out of trim condition I had. As per
Doug
> Bryant's direction, I tweaked the leading edge of the horizontal stab,
down,
> to pitch the nose up, thus reducing the back pressure on the stick,
required
> to maintain level flight. I did this 3 or 4 times, test flying each time.
> I loosened the top fwd turnbuckles about one turn (both sides equally) and
> tightening the bottom fwd turnbuckles, and re-safteying them. Each time
it
> made a difference in pitch trim, but it still didn't seem to be enough,
and
> if you eyeball the leading edge, you can see it it tweaked down. I then
> elected to try a trim tab. I used a piece of balsa wood (recovered from
an
> aileron from my vast collection of model airplane stuff), sanded a radius
on
> the thick portion to match the radius of the trailing edge of the
elevators,
> and taped them on the trailing edge of BOTH elevators, angled down about
20.
> I used duct tape (90 mph tape) for the test phase, and tweaked it down a
> tiny bit at a time, till I got it right. I then glued the tab on, and
used
> fabric to cover the tab. At high cruise speed, on pitch trim, she flys
> almost hands off. Slower speeds she still requires a little back
pressure.
> I also had a left wing heavy condition. After 4 or 5 tests confirming
that
> it was not a torque thing going on (neutral thrust flight), and leveling
the
> plane and re-checking symmetry, I found I had to tweak the wing. To
bring
> the right wing back (lowering the leading edge), left wing forward
(raising
> the leading edge), with the cables between the lift struts, after
loosening
> all the hardware. All told, the Right wing tip was moved back about 1/4",
> Left wing forward 1/4" (one quarter inch). Doesn't sound like much but it
> made 90 % of the left wing heavy condition go away. I'll probably tweak
it
> again, just a tiny bit more. I've still got some gremlins in the
> carburetor...damn them critters !! Every flight for me is a test flight,
and
> a training flight. I'm now ready to start streaching 'er legs. My
longest
> flight thus far has been 1.3 hrs. Now ready for 1.5 hr flight, and an
'Iron
> Butt' award. Next summer, 'We' are going to fly to Broadhead, as well as
> that other fly - in, to the North, then on to Wheeling, West Virginia
(home
> town). Gonna be quite an adventure !!
>
> Chuck Gantzer
> NX770CG
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
yup... mines 4130 tube. I've seen a few done in aluminum. either way is
good providing the joints are good and strong.
DJ
www.raptoronline.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
>
> Fellow Pietenpol builders,
> I have my fuselage glued up and am ready to fabricate the controls. Is
> everyone using 4130 steel for that job?
> Alex Sloan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 10/8/02 8:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:
> >
> > << Pieter Aero Engineers,
> > Situation: Test Pilot has reported he has to hold a little back
pressure
> on
> > the stick to maintain level flight. It may be his weight, 135#,.
> >
> > Question: Would a little alum tab attached to the trailing edge of
right
> > elevator bent downward correct this little problem? >>
> >
> > Corky,
> > Congrats on your flying Pietenpol !! I'm sure the elation you feel
> watching
> > 'er in the air, will pale by comparison, when you fly 'er yourself !!
> Just
> > don't get too anxious...training is the key.
> > Flight Testing:
> > Here is what I did to correct the out of trim condition I had. As per
> Doug
> > Bryant's direction, I tweaked the leading edge of the horizontal stab,
> down,
> > to pitch the nose up, thus reducing the back pressure on the stick,
> required
> > to maintain level flight. I did this 3 or 4 times, test flying each
time.
> > I loosened the top fwd turnbuckles about one turn (both sides equally)
and
> > tightening the bottom fwd turnbuckles, and re-safteying them. Each time
> it
> > made a difference in pitch trim, but it still didn't seem to be enough,
> and
> > if you eyeball the leading edge, you can see it it tweaked down. I then
> > elected to try a trim tab. I used a piece of balsa wood (recovered from
> an
> > aileron from my vast collection of model airplane stuff), sanded a
radius
> on
> > the thick portion to match the radius of the trailing edge of the
> elevators,
> > and taped them on the trailing edge of BOTH elevators, angled down about
> 20.
> > I used duct tape (90 mph tape) for the test phase, and tweaked it down
a
> > tiny bit at a time, till I got it right. I then glued the tab on, and
> used
> > fabric to cover the tab. At high cruise speed, on pitch trim, she flys
> > almost hands off. Slower speeds she still requires a little back
> pressure.
> > I also had a left wing heavy condition. After 4 or 5 tests confirming
> that
> > it was not a torque thing going on (neutral thrust flight), and leveling
> the
> > plane and re-checking symmetry, I found I had to tweak the wing. To
> bring
> > the right wing back (lowering the leading edge), left wing forward
> (raising
> > the leading edge), with the cables between the lift struts, after
> loosening
> > all the hardware. All told, the Right wing tip was moved back about
1/4",
> > Left wing forward 1/4" (one quarter inch). Doesn't sound like much but
it
> > made 90 % of the left wing heavy condition go away. I'll probably tweak
> it
> > again, just a tiny bit more. I've still got some gremlins in the
> > carburetor...damn them critters !! Every flight for me is a test
flight,
> and
> > a training flight. I'm now ready to start streaching 'er legs. My
> longest
> > flight thus far has been 1.3 hrs. Now ready for 1.5 hr flight, and an
> 'Iron
> > Butt' award. Next summer, 'We' are going to fly to Broadhead, as well
as
> > that other fly - in, to the North, then on to Wheeling, West Virginia
> (home
> > town). Gonna be quite an adventure !!
> >
> > Chuck Gantzer
> > NX770CG
> >
> >
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
Alex...You can use 4130 or 1020. 4130 is easy to order in the different
sizes needed
through ACS , Wicks, Dillsburg etc. BUT don't braze 4130 as shown in the
plans 4130 must be welded. Ed Grentzer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
Alex,
4130 is a good choice. And, as Ed says, do not braze 4130.
The merits of welding using OA vs. TIG remain open to debate.
Dale and I used OA and we're happy.
I recommend Dillsburg Aeroplane Works for ordering steel.
Contact them at:
114 Sawmill Rd.
Dillsburg, PA 17019
717 432-4589
Here is a repeat of gage to decimal conversions:
Gage to decimal for TUBING:
11 ga .120
12 ga N/A
13 ga .095
14 ga .083
16 ga .065
17 ga .058
18 ga .049
20 ga .035
22 ga .028
Gage to decimal for SHEET:
11 ga .125
12 ga .100
13 ga .090
14 ga .080
16 ga .063
18 ga .050
20 ga .040
22 ga .032 or .025
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>>> flyboy_120(at)webtv.net 10/10/02 04:52AM >>>
Alex...You can use 4130 or 1020. 4130 is easy to order in the different
sizes needed
through ACS , Wicks, Dillsburg etc. BUT don't braze 4130 as shown in the
plans 4130 must be welded. Ed Grentzer
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
From: | catdesigns(at)juno.com |
I think the majority of builders these days are using 4130. It's stronger for
the same size and easier to obtain.
Chris
Sacramento, CA
---------- "Alex Sloan" writes:
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aero Engineers
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:47:39 -0500
Fellow Pietenpol builders,
I have my fuselage glued up and am ready to fabricate the controls. Is
everyone using 4130 steel for that job?
Alex Sloan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Waytogopiet(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Aero Engineers |
May have been something like my Buhl Bull Pup which had two small vanes that
protruded from either side of the fuselage directly under the horizontal
stab. They were connected with an axle on which a sprocket was mounted. A
small cable ran from the cockpit to a short length of bicycle chain that
actuated the sprocket and vanes. It did not have a great affect but enough to
help the fore and aft stick forces. Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bobka(at)charter.net |
Subject: | Interesting item on eBay web site item#1867731345: Aircraft |
Engine Continental 65 Hp
Here is an A-65 located in Wisconsin, I think, for sale.
Title of item: Aircraft Engine Continental 65 Hp
Seller: edlainwisconsin
Price: Starts at $800.00
To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1867731345
Item Description:
2526.39 Total Time, 1741.79 Time Since Major Overhaul. Tapered Shaft. Removed
from Aeronca Champ July 1999. Was running strong when removed. No accessories.
Have LogBooks. Engine is on a stand. Can ship for shipping expenses.
Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | [ Corky Corbett ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Corky Corbett
Subject: First flight NX41CC 2 Oct 02
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Isablcorky@aol.com.10.12.2002/index.html
--------------------------------------------
o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
emailing the files to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text
Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
o Main Photo Share Index:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Subject: | aircraft mufflers |
Hi everyone
after firing up my vair for the first time the other
day, I decided it may need a little toning down on the
exhaust end, I may have to make a custom muffler. so
the question is... are aircraft mufflers usually just
an empty can or is it packed with fiberglass. I'll
probably make it out of stainless or titanium, any
guesses as to what thickness material to use, or any
good websites I can access to learn about the subject.
thanks much
=====
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Kent Hallsten" <hallstenokc(at)cox.net> |
Subject: | Benton Fly - In Recap |
I had a great time at the Benton "Hangar Fly-in" ! Although the weather didn't
cooperate for flying, it didn't seem to make a difference for me. Marshall and
I intended to fly up, but we drove and got to watch Mike Cuy's video on the
way ! It was a treat to be able to associate with other builders and put a
real person to a name on the list. And to see my first ever completed Pietenpol,
with a Model A is memorable. I met almost everyone who came to Benton,
let's see if I remember who was there, I know I will miss a few, sorry.
Doug Bryant
Chuck Gantzer
Mike Conkling and his father, John
Leon Stefan
Dennis Engelkenjohn
Marshall Alexander and his daughter Kaitlynn
Mitchell Alexander ( an RV fan who had to check out the hangar behind the tree
line)
I know there were two others who left for lunch after we got back from ours, I'm
sorry not to get your names, and another one or two who left almost when we
arrived. Chuck, did you ever make it to lunch? It seemed whenever you got ready
to go, someone had another question to ask you! You have a beautiful airplane
Chuck, I hope mine can become a beauty like yours. I picked up some good
ideas crawling around your plane. Your building log and photos were fun to look
over.
Leon Stefan brought his fuel tank, landing gear, wheels, center section and front
cockpit door, all works of art in my eye. You sure will have an eye catching
Pietenpol, Leon !
I want to thank Chuck and Doug for giving Marshall and I the jigs to get us through
the metal working stage. When I get done with them I'll let the list know
and someone else can benefit from them.
So now it's out to the garage and finish my ribs, I have some catching up to do
!!
Kent Hallsten
Oklahoma City
hallstenokc(at)cox.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | Re: aircraft mufflers |
Try the flowmaster site
This design uses no fiberglass packing to blow out
Ken
http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/web10/SePerfMuff6.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft mufflers
>
> Hi everyone
> after firing up my vair for the first time the other
> day, I decided it may need a little toning down on the
> exhaust end, I may have to make a custom muffler. so
> the question is... are aircraft mufflers usually just
> an empty can or is it packed with fiberglass. I'll
> probably make it out of stainless or titanium, any
> guesses as to what thickness material to use, or any
> good websites I can access to learn about the subject.
> thanks much
>
> =====
> Del-New Richmond, Wi
> "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
>
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Benton Fly - In Recap |
Yeah, even though the weather didn't cooperate, it is always a good time
to spend with others who share our unique interest in building planes.
Homebuilders are a rare breed. All of you folks know what I mean. When we
get together it's always a learning session for everyone, and it's fun to see
old friends, and get to know new ones, and swap stories. Being on a list
like this comes close. Ain't modern technology cool ?
Sunday brought with it perfect flying weather...severe clear and calm
winds. During the afternoon and evening, I spent my first hour in the busy
pattern doing take-off's & landings. I'm getting my short field take-off's
down. As I smoothly apply full power, I hold a lot of forward pressure on
the stick, and I can actually feel the weight of the tail with the stick, as
the tail comes up. Dancing on the rudder to keep 'er straight, and maybe a
little aileron if the one of the wings dip (bunji's are still a little
loose). Slowly ease off the forward pressure as she comes up through 20 to
30 mph, to where it's almost neutral pressure on the stick. Ease in some
back pressure on the stick, as she tippee toes a couple of times, and we're
off !! This all happens in about ten seconds...Way Cool !! Landings are a
different story. I usually drag it in, with a long final approach, however,
today I began practicing slipping it in on final, so I can maintain some
altitude on base. On downwind abeam the touchdown point, I'm usually about
500 agl (or less), I pull power to 1500 rpm, base is about 1400 rpm, and on
short final I just can't trust my idle with a nose down attitude, so I have
to leave a little power in, crossing the fence at 50 to 40 mph, and maybe 40
feet agl, round out maybe 5 or 10 feet agl, and get into the nose up for the
flair, before I pull 'er all the way off to idle. One of the landings I did
today touched tail first...never did that before !! I enjoy the challenge of
a nice landing, and the smile it brings...I smiled a couple of times today !!
Landed, re-fueled, took off and did a lap around El Dorado lake (brought
the camera with me), did a couple of fly bys at El Dorardo airport, and zig
zagged my way across the beautiful countryside back to Benton, looking down
at the rest of the world, for another 1.3 hrs in the air. YEEE HAAAAWW !!!!
Landed, re-fueled and took off with a fellow in an ultra light, for some air
to air photo shots. Three flights on a beautiful Sunday afternoon !!
Doug Bryant used to give me his enthusiastic description of what it's
like to fly a Pietenpol. I thought I understood him...I didn't. Words
spoken, or written just simply can't describe it. Ya gotta experience it.
It's different from flying any other airplane. Naturally the physics are the
same, but flying something you built, adds a psycho factor. All you folks
out there building, cutting, gluing, welding, making boo boo's, doing it over
till it's right, will be rewarded ten fold. Hang in there, and keep plugging
away, and you will get there...just don't give up.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
"Pietenpols Forever"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Hello, folks;
Sorry if some of you get duplicates of this post; I'm sending it to several
lists to get some feedback.
We are trying to set up a "Corvair College" with William Wynne here in South
Texas and I'm trying to get an idea of interest level. It doesn't look like
it will be possible to get it happening in time for the previously-stated
Oct. 26 weekend, so if it were held the weekend of Dec. 7 here in San
Antonio how many would be interested in attending? No firm committments
needed, just an idea. There is no charge for the College... just bring your
engine, your parts, or just yourself- and learn. Also a good chance to meet
other folks who are building or thinking of building, and to answer your
questions about the Corvair. Spend as much or as little time as you want;
the main activity will be Saturday.
Please spare everybody else the clutter by replying directly to me offline,
at taildrags(at)hotmail.com
Thanks.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
I could probably make it Oscar. -Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
> Zuniga
> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:58 PM
> To: corvaircraft(at)mailinglists.org
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College
>
>
>
>
> Hello, folks;
>
> Sorry if some of you get duplicates of this post; I'm sending it
> to several
> lists to get some feedback.
>
> We are trying to set up a "Corvair College" with William Wynne
> here in South
> Texas and I'm trying to get an idea of interest level. It
> doesn't look like
> it will be possible to get it happening in time for the previously-stated
> Oct. 26 weekend, so if it were held the weekend of Dec. 7 here in San
> Antonio how many would be interested in attending? No firm committments
> needed, just an idea. There is no charge for the College... just
> bring your
> engine, your parts, or just yourself- and learn. Also a good
> chance to meet
> other folks who are building or thinking of building, and to answer your
> questions about the Corvair. Spend as much or as little time as
> you want;
> the main activity will be Saturday.
>
> Please spare everybody else the clutter by replying directly to
> me offline,
> at taildrags(at)hotmail.com
>
> Thanks.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Subject: | RE:Thomasville GA Fly-in |
Pieters,
Here is a report on the fly-in held at Thomasville Ga this past weekend.
The weather Saturday was great, planes were flying all day.
Ted Brousseau came up in his Part-Piet GN1. Dick Navratril came down from
Minn. in his Seneca.
Bert Conoly, Don Hicks, Harry Hooper and I all came via ground
transportation.
Also another real friendly Piet builder came in from Florida, can't remember
his name, sorry.
Near as I could tell we all had a great time and talked allot of Pietenpol
will into the night.
Ted gave everyone a hop in his Piet, great!
Thomasville bills itself as "An old-fashioned grass roots fly-in", I would
have to agree and plan to be there next year.
Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | where to keep Weight and Balance form |
Getting all my stuff together for the big inspection, and wondering where everyone
keeps the W&B form. Does everyone just fold up the paper and put it in an
envelope? I was thinking of fastening it to the pack page of the aircraft
log. so it would be attached but will fold out. Has anyone done this?
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
czech-list(at)matronics.com, europa-list(at)matronics.com, ez-list(at)matronics.com,
glasair-list(at)matronics.com, homebuilt-list(at)matronics.com,
kolb-list(at)matronics.com, kr-list(at)matronics.com, lancair-list(at)matronics.com,
pelican-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com,
piper-list(at)matronics.com, pitts-list(at)matronics.com,
rocket-list(at)matronics.com, rv4-list(at)matronics.com, rv6-list(at)matronics.com,
rv7-list(at)matronics.com, rv8-list(at)matronics.com, sonerai-list(at)matronics.com,
tailwind-list(at)matronics.com, ultralight-list(at)matronics.com,
warbird-list(at)matronics.com, yak-list(at)matronics.com,
zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: | EAA Chapter 339 Fall Fly-In |
EAA Chapter 339 Fall Fly-In
Saturday, October 19, 2002, Hampton Roads Exec (PVG), Virginia, 9AM till
7PM
Hampton Roads Exec (PVG) is 13.5nm SW of Norfolk, Virginia (253 radial
(ORF)
AWOS 118.375
CTAF 123.0
The weather will really be a perfect Virginia fall day!
Aircraft parking is off taxiway between Rwy 23 and T-Hangars East of
Airport Terminal
Schedule of Events
Fly-In Begins 9AM
Food all Day 10AM - 3PM
Poker Run (Walk Around Field)
Project Visits on Field
Aircraft Judging 11AM - 3PM, All Categories, Antiques, Classics,
Homebuilts, Warbirds
Social Hour 4PM
Dinner 5PM - 7PM, BBQ Sandwiches, Chicken, Drinks
Local motels/hotels are available
For More Information
Frank Toy 757-460-3680
ftoy(at)att.net
Richard Reynolds 757-627-8743
rvreynolds(at)macs.net
EAA Chapter 339
http://home.earthlink.net/~avyator/
Hampton Roads Exec Airport
http://www.hamptonroadsexecutiveairport.com/index.html
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: where to keep Weight and Balance form |
Walt,
Doesn't really matter where you put it as long as it is available if some
nosey FAA burro might come along and try to impress someone. My DAR gave me 3
pages of instructions combining Phase I and Phase II. Phase I being the 25 hr
test period and Phase II the limitations of experimental aircraft from there
on. These regulating instructions must be in the aircraft when flown so I
made a simple acetate folder and I included the W & B form with these
instructions. I screwed the air worthiness certificate under a like size
piece of lexon scrap to the ionside wall of rear cockpit with the metal ID
plate and the Reg. certificate.
Have over 5 hrs on 41CC as of tonight.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; some days ago there were some posts about Vne
for Piets. The 'high speed of 90 MPH' sounded more like a high *cruise*
speed to me than a redline Vne for this design. I seemed to recall that
William Wynne said his Piet cruised with the engine throttled well back, so
I asked him about his redline. Here's a snip from his reply:
>Vne on a Piet is a lot higher than 90. Our average to Oshkosh in 2000 was
>86mph. It is very windy above 95, and it is twitchy above 105 when the CG
>is
>forward (15 to 17"). In Bernie's notes he mentions seeing 130.
Obviously the Vne should be based on design, testing, and prudence. Equally
obvious is the fact that it isn't fun or comfortable to fly the plane real
fast, but for purposes of establishing a structural Vne, there are enough
Piets flying out there to have a good knowledge base of what a reasonable
redline must be. Don't overly limit your airplane's operating envelope!
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: where to keep Weight and Balance form |
In a message dated 10/15/02 5:11:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<< wondering where everyone keeps the W&B form. Does everyone just fold up
the paper and put it in an envelope? >>
I keep mine in a heavy duty zip lock baggie, in one of the two map holders
that are on each side of the cockpit, next to my knees. A triangle piece of
1/16" plywood make up the holder, leaving the bottom open so it doesn't
collect dirt.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> |
Subject: | Started building |
Hi all,
I've been thinking about building since I attended Brodhead in 97. I have had
the plans for a couple years and even bought some Douglas fir about 2 years back.
I attended Brodhead this year in hopes of getting a ride in a Piet before
I started making sawdust, but was unable to talk anyone into a ride. Also attended
Bill Reweys forum and William Wynnes forum at Oshkosh. Well, 6 weeks ago
I finally started building and I'm having a ball. I am building out of Douglas
fir bought locally in PA, and Marine plywood from Noah's Arks. To date I
have the fuselage framed up, seats, turtle deck, top and side stringers installed.
The stabilizer is built and I'm working on the elevators, landing gear,
and fittings. I hope to pick up a Corvair motor this weekend. I have been watching
this list server for a while and have cruised the archives. It's nice
to have so much info available from all of you guys. Still need to get my single
engine land license at some point. I have been flying gliders here in the
PA ridges for the past 12 years. Some day I will get a home page together and
post some pictures. Until then I'll stay in touch. Thank's again for all
the good Piet info.
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Started building |
Good to have you building a Piet, Malcolm. You've done a lot in 6 weeks.
At that rate you'll have it flying in a year or so. I've been building mine
for over 6 years and have it to the 90% complete, 90% to go stage.
Good Luck,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of morrisons5
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Started building
Hi all,
I've been thinking about building since I attended Brodhead in 97. I have
had the plans for a couple years and even bought some Douglas fir about 2
years back. I attended Brodhead this year in hopes of getting a ride in a
Piet before I started making sawdust, but was unable to talk anyone into a
ride. Also attended Bill Reweys forum and William Wynnes forum at Oshkosh.
Well, 6 weeks ago I finally started building and I'm having a ball. I am
building out of Douglas fir bought locally in PA, and Marine plywood from
Noah's Arks. To date I have the fuselage framed up, seats, turtle deck, top
and side stringers installed. The stabilizer is built and I'm working on
the elevators, landing gear, and fittings. I hope to pick up a Corvair
motor this weekend. I have been watching this list server for a while and
have cruised the archives. It's nice to have so much info available from
all of you guys. Still need to get my single engine land license at some
point. I have been!
flying gliders here in the PA ridges for the past 12 years. Some day I
will get a home page together and post some pictures. Until then I'll stay
in touch. Thank's again for all the good Piet info.
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Cowling Patterns |
Hi Pieters,
Just a quick tip to pass on. I'm in the process of making my engine
cowling, making paper patterns first before cutting expensive aluminum.
After struggling with flimsy posterboard (which comes in too small a sheet
anyway) I discovered the ideal pattern material: Matte Board. That's the
stuff they use in those expensive picture frame shops to make the colored
matting between the picture and the frame. Matte board is about .050" thick
and has just about the same stiffness as .025" aluminum, so it behaves about
the same. It is easily cut with a boxcutter knife or a bandsaw and once
formed to shape and taped in place it is pretty durable. It is not so
easily dented as posterboard is. Its only drawback is its price. I bought
5 sheets of 32" x 40" matte board for $6 per sheet and that was enough to
make my cowling patterns. Yeah, I know, $30 is a lot to spend on something
you'll just throw away, but to me it was worth it for the reduced
aggravation compared with posterboard.
Just thought I'd pass it on.
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Here's a handy site to view all the FAA regs. The top section, # 1-199 is for
FAA.
If this link doesn't go thru, I'll resend in pieces.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14tab_00.html
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | Keep your fingers crossed |
Just got off the phone with my DAR. Said he would call tomorrow pm to confirm
if he can inspect this weekend.
Whew! It's finally here
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Keep your fingers crossed |
Boy, do I know how you feel. Hope you get a little sleep tonight. Don't
hurry, don't worry, you've done your best so to hell with the rest.
Corky in La watching Edwin the test pilot have all the fun.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Keep your fingers crossed |
Way to go, Walt!!
Only someone who has done this can possibly know how much has gone into it.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed
Just got off the phone with my DAR. Said he would call tomorrow pm to
confirm if he can inspect this weekend.
Whew! It's finally here
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Keep your fingers crossed |
Corky,
Thanks for the good words!!! Don't worry, the sport thing is right around
the corner!
walt
N140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed
>
> Boy, do I know how you feel. Hope you get a little sleep tonight. Don't
> hurry, don't worry, you've done your best so to hell with the rest.
> Corky in La watching Edwin the test pilot have all the fun.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Keep your fingers crossed |
Thanks, Jack,
I'll let everyone know what happens.
walt
N140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed
>
> Way to go, Walt!!
>
> Only someone who has done this can possibly know how much has gone into
it.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter
> evans
> Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 7:02 PM
> To: piet discussion; Fishnet
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Keep your fingers crossed
>
>
>
> Just got off the phone with my DAR. Said he would call tomorrow pm to
> confirm if he can inspect this weekend.
> Whew! It's finally here
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Keep your fingers crossed |
Walt,
I forgot to mention that Isabelle made me take a couple of be nice pills the
day of the DAR. It worked
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
From: | rhartwig11(at)juno.com |
Dear Low and Slows,
A sad day.....ZERO messages today in the Piet Digest. I guess we have
said all there is to say about Pietenpols and all of us who are building
know everything we have to know to complete our projects.........NOT!!!!!
The digest has not contained much about building techniques the past
couple of weeks. I propose that we each write something in the next two
weeks about the process we used in making part of a Pietenpol. I am
working on metal fittings and would like to see a description of the
procedure--from cutting and bending to final installation on the
airframe. The correct procedure in making any part may seem simple to
you, but is a mystery to someone who has never done it and wants to do it
correctly.
I bet we can even get some good arguments started!!!
Another suggestion: It would make reading the digest a lot easier if the
message we respond to is not included in our reply.....unless of course
it is necessary for understanding of the reply.
Thank you, (and please help this plodding builder complete his project.),
Dick Hartwig
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
Lets see.....Metal fittings,,what I learned the hard way. I tryed about
every method of cutting. I now use an old table saw with one of those
metal cutting composite cutters like they use on masonry at home and a
band saw at work for more intricate stuff. I've heard it said that the
composite blades create too much heat, just let it cool slowly.
ACS will custom cut strips not listed in their catologe for a cutting
fee.
Always bend 4130 across the grain with a radious. Bingelis lists the
radiouses (sp? )
I bend in a vice with the metal between two pieces of angle iron with
the corners ground to the radious desired. Square the work piece to the
angle iron before bending and use a block of wood between the hammer and
the piece. Buy the good drill bits and always start with a center punch
and a pilot hole.
I usually pilot with an 1/8" drill. Scrutinize the plans before
drilling holes in fittings. For instance only two of the 8 tailwire
tangs are drilled as shown in the
plans. They say not to braze 4130. Now the thing that gave me the
biggest fit. aligning the bolt holes perfectly on a steel wood steel
sandwich, School of hard knocks here. And I'm sure there are other maybe
better ways to do it ( I'm leaving myself wide open here). I drill the
holes in one fitting only. Then using the fitting as a guide I drill
shallow pilot holes in the wood. next useing a 12" long drill bit
from Home Depot and a 6" combination square I drill the holes in the
wood as square as posible. Then I clamp the blank metal fitting to the
other side exactly where i want it. then using a drill bit the same
size as the holes I drill just enough to put a mark on the inside of the
blank fitting being careful not to enlarge the holes in the wood. then
take the blank off and drill the holes on the marks. Viola a perfect
alignment every time. Hope you can follow all that.This is assuming of
course that you can't get the whole mess in the drill press. There are
much more experienced builders on the list who may take this kind of
stuff for granted but I struggled with it in the beinning so maybe it
will help those who are where I was
2 1/2 years ago.
Ed Grentzer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
-0500
Ed, the plural of radius is radii. But nice try.
The best way to drill holes if you have a drill press is to use the Black &
Decker Bullet Bits. They cut like a flycutter or an end mill and you can
get them in increments of 1/64 for excellent hole to shank clearance. They
also cut a true hole whereas the old drill bit will always cut out of round.
Go to Home Depot (unless you live in Washington D.C.), get one, and try one.
You will love them.
chris
>Always bend 4130 across the grain with a radious. Bingelis lists the
radiouses (sp? )
> I usually pilot with an 1/8" drill.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - |
Oh yeah Radii Duh Guess it's been a long time since I took
Geometry. Thanks for the tip on the Bullet bits. I've never heard of
them but I'll give them a try.
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Chad and Susan Johnson" <chadnsue(at)earthlink.net> |
hello..all...keyboard..is..still..messed..up......Stopped..in..and..took..a.
.look
at..Chuck..Gs...piet..yesterday....Very..nice....looks..like..allot..of..fun
....building.
and..flying..
......someday............
chad.
--- Susan Johnson
--- chadnsue(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
-0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
>
Hi Everyone:
Wicks Aircraft will shear the metal to the size strip you need, and
they have never charged me a fee. They had a guage conversion chart in their
yellow catalog about 2 yrs ago also. They sell the 4130 in 9" X 9" as the
smallest up to 4' X 8' sheets.
They also cut the wood shapes for the tail of the Pietenpol for no
extra charge! Just photocopy the plans where the shapes are and send it to
them with the amount and the cost is the same as the raw stock of the
material.
I don't work for them, but I live about 25 miles from them and just
drive over when I need something. Not an employee or anything, they just
have absolutely superior service! Unbeatable!
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
>
>Lets see.....Metal fittings,,what I learned the hard way. I tryed about
>every method of cutting. I now use an old table saw with one of those
>metal cutting composite cutters like they use on masonry at home and a
>band saw at work for more intricate stuff. I've heard it said that the
>composite blades create too much heat, just let it cool slowly.
>ACS will custom cut strips not listed in their catologe for a cutting
>fee.
>Always bend 4130 across the grain with a radious. Bingelis lists the
>radiouses (sp? )
>I bend in a vice with the metal between two pieces of angle iron with
>the corners ground to the radious desired. Square the work piece to the
>angle iron before bending and use a block of wood between the hammer and
>the piece. Buy the good drill bits and always start with a center punch
>and a pilot hole.
> I usually pilot with an 1/8" drill. Scrutinize the plans before
>drilling holes in fittings. For instance only two of the 8 tailwire
>tangs are drilled as shown in the
>plans. They say not to braze 4130. Now the thing that gave me the
>biggest fit. aligning the bolt holes perfectly on a steel wood steel
>sandwich, School of hard knocks here. And I'm sure there are other maybe
>better ways to do it ( I'm leaving myself wide open here). I drill the
>holes in one fitting only. Then using the fitting as a guide I drill
>shallow pilot holes in the wood. next useing a 12" long drill bit
>from Home Depot and a 6" combination square I drill the holes in the
>wood as square as posible. Then I clamp the blank metal fitting to the
>other side exactly where i want it. then using a drill bit the same
>size as the holes I drill just enough to put a mark on the inside of the
>blank fitting being careful not to enlarge the holes in the wood. then
>take the blank off and drill the holes on the marks. Viola a perfect
>alignment every time. Hope you can follow all that.This is assuming of
>course that you can't get the whole mess in the drill press. There are
>much more experienced builders on the list who may take this kind of
>stuff for granted but I struggled with it in the beinning so maybe it
>will help those who are where I was
> 2 1/2 years ago.
> Ed Grentzer
Ed, Dick & Chris,
Ed's method is pretty much the same method I've been working out over the
past month or so - works pretty well. Trying to make fittings with all the
holes pre-drilled doesn't work so well! To keep the holes through the wood
lined up, I make a shallow pilot hole in the wood with my 'frontside' metal
fitting clamped in place, then I take it off & clamp on a 1-2" thick piece
of hardwood with the proper size hole drilled in it & use that to keep my
drill bit properly aligned. Then I clamp the fitting back on & dimple the
'backside' piece with my drill the way Ed describes. Then it comes off &
goes on the drill press. Time consuming, but everything stays lined up.
I do all my bending as described in Bengilis' books & some articles on
making fittings that I downloaded from the member's section of the EAA web
site.
I got a couple of pieces of scrap 3/4" steel from the local junk yard & a
friend is helping me mill them into bending blocks with radiused edges. I'm
using either 1/8" or 3/16" radiuses, depending on my steel thickness &
location in the plane. My EAA tech advisor preferes big radii if the
application allows it, but some places you just have to go with the
tightest radius allowable. I started out by filing a radius in one of my
vise jaws. Works OK, but I get a little bit of embossing in the metal from
the jaw. That's why I'm switching to a bend block. Angle iron sounds like a
nice quick way to make up a block.
Never heard of the 'bullet bits' Chris B. recommends - I've been
under-drilling my holes by 1/32 and reaming them to size.
Another suggestion I'd make is get a cross-slide vise for your drill press.
It allows you to line up your bit to your center-punch mark really easily.
Plus, you can drill multiple holes without a lot of screwing around
repositioning your vise. I got a table-top drill press, full set of
titanium bits, cross-slide vise and 3/4hp grinding wheel from Harbor
Freight Tools (all Chinese stuff, but adequate for what I'm doing) for
about $130.00. I got a really good Stanley reamer from a local hardware
store. Cost about $20, but makes really smooth holes. The cross-slide vise
needed a little 'tuning up' before I was happy with how it worked. Also, my
local surplus store sells drill bits by the pound, so I stocked up on the
more common sizes & don't have to worry about dull bits.
Dick, one other piece of advice I got from my Tech Advisor. Make a simple
fitting - like one of the Rudder/Stabilizer fittings, and then put it in a
vise & try to break it by bending it back & forth at your orginal bend
line. If you can't break it easily (I bent mine back & forth about 6 times
& it never broke) you can be reasonably sure that your bending technique is
good & that you are in fact making good fittings.
Have fun with your fittings Dick!
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
(whose next metal-working challenge is to learn how to make decent welds!)
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
I hate to see no messages on the net! The Fuse is nearly done: I was going to
build a glove-box back of the rear seat ala Mike Cuy, but had only one piece
of plywood to do it with. But I needed a bulkhead at the rear so things would
not fall through, so I cut my only remaining plywood, and it was in the
wrong direction. Oh Woe. I'm looking for a scale to weigh the Fuse, it is
almost ready; the turtledeck is there but not glued. I'll post the weight as
soon as I can. I've used Fir and Basswood exclusively, so it will be
interesting to compare with your Spruce weights.
I made up an Elevator Horn, just for check out. It seems to me that it would
be a lot better to make up a U-channel and weld it into the horn, rather than
trying to fold out the metal as shown in the plans. The U-channel could
provide a weather-tight fitting which would not allow water to accummulate at
the bottom of the Horn.
Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, Los Angeles, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/18/02 |
Carl,
Failed to mention that I bought a lugged lock from a juke -pin ball operator
and installed it on the seat back at the top. I can lock the entire back with
the box.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | DAR inspection results |
All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he needed
a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my paperwork,
and he found a few adjustments to make.
Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not the knob
stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still have 1/16"
or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to the stop screw
on the carb at full throttle on the controls.
The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted them
sleeved.
and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board.
Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and give
me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate.
Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go.
Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave him a
copy of the reg., and he said he would find out.
Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff into PA
and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon Scott and
Bob)
I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done.
I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, if it
was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it.
thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
PS really won't be long now
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Subject: | Re: DAR inspection results |
Congrats Walt, I know your a happy guy. Hopefully, I'm about a month behind
ya. BTW, about how long did the
inspection take? Also, what paperwork do you have to finish?
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results
>
> All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he
needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my
paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make.
> Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not
the knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still
have 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go
to the stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls.
> The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted
them sleeved.
> and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board.
> Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and
give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate.
> Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go.
> Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave
him a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out.
> Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff
into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon
Scott and Bob)
> I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done.
> I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff,
if it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it.
> thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
> PS really won't be long now
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | DAR inspection results |
Let us know how the Nx thing goes. "Knows his stuff" yet did not know this?
chris bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results
All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he
needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do my
paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make.
Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not the
knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still have
1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to the
stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls.
The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted
them sleeved.
and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board.
Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and
give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate.
Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go.
Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave him
a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out.
Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff
into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you soon
Scott and Bob)
I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done.
I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff, if
it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it.
thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
PS really won't be long now
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Okay, here's my two cents on what I did over the weekend. Joined the
"knuckle buster" club by de-flashing and cleaning up my Corvair's heads in
preparation to a valve job. The head castings are quite rough on the
Corvair engine and a few of the fins were bent on mine, so I took drill,
files, Dremel, and anything else I had that was abrasive and sat down with
some music and a couple of hours and cleaned 'em up. Still need to chase
all the threads on tapped holes and studs, and finish the last of the minor
degreasing and cleanup, then it's off to the machine shop for a valve job.
The air passages between the fins are amazingly rough as they come from the
factory, and cleaning things up makes the heads much more appealing. Of
course, a guy can take it to extremes... as Pat Panzera has done on his
showpiece Corvair (the "poster child" engine at
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIRCRAFT/Completed_145.html). Pat likes to
be able to see his reflection in everything he looks at under the cowling
;o)
PS- I've had a set of the "Bullet Bits" that Chris refers to, for at least
10 years. They are great; they are much less prone to skipping and walking,
and do a nice job.
PPS- I'm on the digest of this list, and far prefer it to continuous posts.
"To each his own", eh?
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: DAR inspection results |
Yeah, like I said , he's a regular guy. remember he's not FAA. Just a guy
with alot of experience, who's flown alot of planes, who flies formula V
racers ( VW powered to 180 mph) who got offered the job. Heard horror
stories of inspecters who wouldn't let the plane fly without the
"experimental". but he was good enough to say that he had never heard of
it, but he will check. Lucky I had a copy of the reg with me that he wanted
to take to check with the FAA.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results
>
> Let us know how the Nx thing goes. "Knows his stuff" yet did not know
this?
>
> chris bobka
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
> evans
> To: piet discussion; Fishnet
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results
>
>
>
>
> All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he
> needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do
my
> paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make.
> Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not
the
> knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still
have
> 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go to
the
> stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls.
> The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and wanted
> them sleeved.
> and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board.
> Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork and
> give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate.
> Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go.
> Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave
him
> a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out.
> Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff
> into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you
soon
> Scott and Bob)
> I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done.
> I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff,
if
> it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it.
> thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
> PS really won't be long now
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: DAR inspection results |
Carl,
The walk around and inspection took about 45 min to an hour. Then we
started the paperwork, which we finished at the diner ( cafe for you non NJ
folks) I have to finish a number of forms ( if you need details , I can
give you the form #'s tomorrow) When he comes back need,,,,,\
copy of my picture ID
copy of my W&B
copy of my registration
form folled out that confirms that I indeed built it( forget the name)
I'll get the forms that allows me to get my repairmans cirt.
carl, my head is spiraling down now from today,,,If you want the exact
forms, I'll be glad to post them, but right now there in a packet. Let me
know, and I'll be glad to send you the names, if you like. Let me know!
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results
>
> Congrats Walt, I know your a happy guy. Hopefully, I'm about a month
behind
> ya. BTW, about how long did the
> inspection take? Also, what paperwork do you have to finish?
> Carl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
> To: "piet discussion" ; "Fishnet"
>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: DAR inspection results
>
>
>
> >
> > All in all the inspection went Great!!! What it boiled down to was he
> needed a few days to do the paperwork, and said I needed a few days to do
my
> paperwork, and he found a few adjustments to make.
> > Wanted the throttle and carb heat controls to stop at their stops, not
> the knob stops. In other words, wanted the carb heat to bottom and still
> have 1/16" or so of travel left in the knob. Also the throttle did not go
> to the stop screw on the carb at full throttle on the controls.
> > The aerleron wires seemed to rub slightly under the panel, and
wanted
> them sleeved.
> > and lastly wanted the main fuel shutoff labeled for total fuel on board.
> > Said to call him when done and he will fly down and transfer paperwork
and
> give me the BIG airworthiness cirtificate.
> > Said it's okay to put on all the cowlings and get ready to go.
> > Did have a problem with the NX number thing. Never heard of it. I gave
> him a copy of the reg., and he said he would find out.
> > Got a 25 hour flyoff because of my engine and prop, and a phase 1 flyoff
> into PA and able to land in Sussex due to no fuel in Newton ( see you
soon
> Scott and Bob)
> > I'm a happy, happy happy guy, just not quite done.
> > I was impressed with the DAR I had, very knowledgeable, knew his stuff,
> if it was ok,,,fine, if not , you had to change it.
> > thanks to Scott and Bob and everyone for their input
> > walt
> > NX140DL
> > (north N.J.)
> > PS really won't be long now
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com> |
"John Greenlee" ,
"Lou Larson" ,
"Michael Madrid" ,
"Michael D Cuy" ,
"Skip Gadd" , "Steve Eldredge" ,
"Donny Emch" ,
"Pietenpol-List Digest Server"
Friends-
Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it is.
I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red Oak/Maple
blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch comes out a
bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building and can say with
authority that no two prop makers use the same data to arrive at their pitch
numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3 diameter and some use the tip!!!
Even the formulas that should be the one constant are interpreted differently.
The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a lot
of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my Falcon prop
that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based on another sources'
formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more like 48". So whose
figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are willing to make several
props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity like I did.
Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the climb and
cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich. Sounds like a winner,
right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees cooler than when I flew
to Brodhead so the jury is still out on performance until I can duplicate
the 90 degree days of summer. Of course by that time I should have a lot more
hours on the "A" and that will help, too.
I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any worse
than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is home-made.
Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, it gets me back
into the sky!
Larry
ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while flying (trying
to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for the pilot. My next
step is to take off the front windshield and see what effect that has.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Larry, I there anything special about this Hegy prop like the shape? Could
you send a picture of either the busted up one or the new one?
I might want to duplicate the busted up one as well...
chris bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of LAWRENCE
WILLIAMS
Cuy; Skip Gadd; Steve Eldredge; Donny Emch; Pietenpol-List Digest Server
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet update
Friends-
Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it
is.
I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red
Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch
comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building
and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to
arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3
diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one
constant are interpreted differently.
The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a
lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my
Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based on
another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more like
48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are willing
to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity like I
did.
Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the climb
and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich. Sounds like
a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees cooler than
when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on performance until I can
duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course by that time I should have
a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help, too.
I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any
worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is
home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, it
gets me back into the sky!
Larry
ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while flying
(trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for the pilot.
My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what effect that
has.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | airworthiness inspection |
G'day, low 'n' slow fliers;
One other thing I've heard that inspectors want in the paperwork (sometimes)
is a 3-view of the airplane, along with the weight and balance. Can any of
you recent airworthiness guys (Corky, Walt) verify this, or is it just
folklore?
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Subject: | Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs |
- 10/18/
I had the same problem until I finally figured out the tool that one of the
local EAA'ers was trying to describe. Imagine a C-clamp body with the screw
removed and a hole drilled all the way from the threaded part through the
seat on the bottom. Any two rods placed in these holes have to be aligned.
Match drill the metal fittings, then sandwich the fittings over the spar (or
whatever), then place the C-fixture over the sandwich. Use a proper size
bolt to align one end of the C-fixture with the hole in one side of the
fitting, then drill through the other. Your drill will eventually push the
bolt out of the other side and the hole will be aligned perfectly.
I've probably welded up half a dozen of these devices in various sizes and
shapes. I used square tubing from Home Depot for the body, and a piece of
structural tubing for the drill bushing. Cut the center part out after
welding to ensure that it stays aligned. But come to think of it, you
probably could make one out of a C-clamp...
Gene Hubbard
in San Diego, working on engine controls and trying to figure out how to
make a cub-style cowling.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Engelkenjohn [mailto:wingding(at)usmo.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
>
Hi Everyone:
Wicks Aircraft will shear the metal to the size strip you need, and
they have never charged me a fee. They had a guage conversion chart in their
yellow catalog about 2 yrs ago also. They sell the 4130 in 9" X 9" as the
smallest up to 4' X 8' sheets.
They also cut the wood shapes for the tail of the Pietenpol for no
extra charge! Just photocopy the plans where the shapes are and send it to
them with the amount and the cost is the same as the raw stock of the
material.
I don't work for them, but I live about 25 miles from them and just
drive over when I need something. Not an employee or anything, they just
have absolutely superior service! Unbeatable!
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: airworthiness inspection |
Oscar,
Yes I do need that, glad you reminded me. My head is still spinning from
yesterdays inspection. When my DAR returns in a few days, he needs that
plus all the other stuff I have to fill out.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: airworthiness inspection
>
> G'day, low 'n' slow fliers;
>
> One other thing I've heard that inspectors want in the paperwork
(sometimes)
> is a 3-view of the airplane, along with the weight and balance. Can any
of
> you recent airworthiness guys (Corky, Walt) verify this, or is it just
> folklore?
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
"John Greenlee" ,
"Lou Larson" ,
"Michael Madrid" ,
"Michael D Cuy" ,
"Skip Gadd" , "Steve Eldredge" ,
"Donny Emch" ,
"Pietenpol-List Digest Server"
>
>Friends-
>
>Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it is.
>
>I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red
>Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch
>comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building
>and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to
>arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3
>diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one
>constant are interpreted differently.
>The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a
>lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my
>Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based
>on another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more
>like 48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are
>willing to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity
>like I did.
>Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the
>climb and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich.
>Sounds like a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees
>cooler than when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on
>performance until I can duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course
>by that time I should have a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help,
>too.
>I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any
>worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is
>home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all,
>it gets me back into the sky!
>
>Larry
>
>ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while
>flying (trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for
>the pilot. My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what
>effect that has.
Larry,
What text, etc. did you use for instruction on prop carving?
I just 'inherited' a prop blank from the family of Norris Keeling. Norris
was building an 'A' powered Piet in Uniontown, OH. He used to post to this
list, but was killed in a Piper Colt accident a few years back. His family
contacted me a couple of months ago when one of my fellow EAA Chapter
members mentioned to his widow that I was building a Piet. As it turned
out, I wound up helping them find Norris' project a new home, a young
couple in Alliance, OH who are going to build it together. They'll probably
start posting to the list sometime.
Anyway, Norris had laid up a prop blank, and apparently did it 'backwards',
so he gave up & bought a Sterba prop. A 'backwards' prop is just what a
Corvair needs, so Norris' son gave it to me. Now I have one more thing to
do!
BTW, Eugene's 'hole aligning tool' sounds pretty slick & makes perfect
sense. I may try my hand at making up a few.
P.S. - I did my 1st (tailwheel) landing yesterday, at the end of my 4th
hour of instruction. My CFI says I'm 'over the hump'!
Cheers!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Piet update "John Greenlee" |
, "Lou Larson" ,
"Michael Madrid" , "Michael D Cuy"
, "Skip Gadd" ,
"Steve Eldredge" , "Donny Emch" ,
"Pietenpol-List Digest Server"
>P.S. - I did my 1st (tailwheel) landing yesterday, at the end of my 4th
>hour of instruction. My CFI says I'm 'over the hump'!
Kip,
After a while you even stop looking like a drunken sailor going down the
runway. I haven't decided if it is going to be funny or scarey to watch Ben
(kid that got the ride in Mike's Piet at Alliance) do that in my TCart next
summer. I have got to find a decent tailwheel CFI for him. There aren't
many left.
Hint - never assume you are done flying until the ropes are on it. Mine has
reminded me a couple of times that my feet had better get moving.
Dave
N36078 '41 BC-12-65
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Subject: | Re: Drilling for Fittings, |
This tool appeared in either Experimenter or Sport
Av. a while back. It was welded out of a C clamp
and tubing. I made up 2, a 1/8" and 3/16" out of
copper pipe fittings, SS tube in 12" lengths from
the hobby shop and epoxy putty. Putting the tube
through the whole thing, puttying where it went through
the two ends then cutting out an appropriate length
gap when dry assured perfect alignment. I've
mean't to put a picture up on mykitplane but never
seemed to get around to it. So Eugene, why don't
we both do pics to clear up the mud.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0
>
> I had the same problem until I finally figured out the tool that one of
the
> local EAA'ers was trying to describe. Imagine a C-clamp body with the
screw
> removed and a hole drilled all the way from the threaded part through the
> seat on the bottom. Any two rods placed in these holes have to be
aligned.
>
> Match drill the metal fittings, then sandwich the fittings over the spar
(or
> whatever), then place the C-fixture over the sandwich. Use a proper size
> bolt to align one end of the C-fixture with the hole in one side of the
> fitting, then drill through the other. Your drill will eventually push
the
> bolt out of the other side and the hole will be aligned perfectly.
>
> I've probably welded up half a dozen of these devices in various sizes and
> shapes. I used square tubing from Home Depot for the body, and a piece of
> structural tubing for the drill bushing. Cut the center part out after
> welding to ensure that it stays aligned. But come to think of it, you
> probably could make one out of a C-clamp...
>
> Gene Hubbard
> in San Diego, working on engine controls and trying to figure out how to
> make a cub-style cowling.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Engelkenjohn [mailto:wingding(at)usmo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed G. <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
>
>
> >
> Hi Everyone:
>
> Wicks Aircraft will shear the metal to the size strip you need, and
> they have never charged me a fee. They had a guage conversion chart in
their
> yellow catalog about 2 yrs ago also. They sell the 4130 in 9" X 9" as the
> smallest up to 4' X 8' sheets.
> They also cut the wood shapes for the tail of the Pietenpol for no
> extra charge! Just photocopy the plans where the shapes are and send it to
> them with the amount and the cost is the same as the raw stock of the
> material.
> I don't work for them, but I live about 25 miles from them and just
> drive over when I need something. Not an employee or anything, they just
> have absolutely superior service! Unbeatable!
> Dennis Engelkenjohn
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List |
>
>This tool appeared in either Experimenter or Sport
>Av. a while back. It was welded out of a C clamp
>and tubing. I made up 2, a 1/8" and 3/16" out of
>copper pipe fittings, SS tube in 12" lengths from
>the hobby shop and epoxy putty. Putting the tube
>through the whole thing, puttying where it went through
>the two ends then cutting out an appropriate length
>gap when dry assured perfect alignment. I've
>mean't to put a picture up on mykitplane but never
>seemed to get around to it. So Eugene, why don't
>we both do pics to clear up the mud.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: 0
Clif,
Yes, please, a picture would be great!
Dave,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Since I have, in fact, been a
drunken sailor on an occasion or two (a month at sea will make you lose
your normal sense of moderation when you get a 6-hr. shore visit!), yes, it
wasn't the straightest landing in the world, it was a landing. I'm well
aware how lucky I am to have a competent tailwheel instructor, I sure hope
you find one for Ben; is he hooked on open cockpits after the ride with
Mikey (sure did it for me!).
Cheers!
Kip Gardner (home with a sick 3-year old today - on her birthday, no less)
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Cessna 152 Gear on Pietenpol |
Pieters,
Has anyone ever tried using the Cessna landing gear box and legs on a
Pietenpol. The rounds would be lighter than the flats of course and would
have to be reversed. I would like to have some thoughts on this one before I
begin laying out my fuse.
Nathan Moss (Using another Pieter's computer)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Subject: | Re: Cessna 152 Gear on Pietenpol |
I kicked the idea around of using spring aluminum gear like a Citabria. Cost
was about the same as a Cub gear, but in the end I decided to use Cub gear. Didn't
want to fiddle with re-engineering the attach points
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:10 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cessna 152 Gear on Pietenpol
Pieters,
Has anyone ever tried using the Cessna landing gear box and legs on a
Pietenpol. The rounds would be lighter than the flats of course and would
have to be reversed. I would like to have some thoughts on this one before I
begin laying out my fuse.
Nathan Moss (Using another Pieter's computer)
=
This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 10/21/02 |
In a message dated 10/21/02 11:54:11 PM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com
writes:
<< From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, >>
So I very carefully laid out my fittings and drilled them one at a time, then
selected the pairs that best matched up. Then drilled the Fuse on the drill
press, supporting the long overhang with an adjustable support. Now I'm busy
cutting new fittings, without all the holes! My best work wasn't really good
enough. So now I'm going to clamp and drill through the metal/wood/metal
sandwich. Your C-clamp idea is a good one, Gene, and I'm going to try it.
But I have yet to figure out how to drill and install the Strut/Landing gear
fitting plate(s). Do you need to plane the bottom so that the plates really
fit in? I mean to make the metal "bed" in the wood. But maybe some Bondo
would actually be better? And the inner angle needs to be held/fastened while
drilling through.
I did modify the drilling pattern so that there would be room to install the
nuts on the bolts on the inside.
Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, Los Angeles, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 10/21/02 |
Carl,
I didn't try to let the plates into the bottom of the fuselage--my feeling
was that there are enough lumps in the bottom as it is from the control
mountings that a few more external fittings wouldn't look too much worse.
Of course, you could do stringers on the bottom too--it's been done before.
I didn't worry about fuselage curvature over the length of the fitting. I
figured that with a thousand pounds or so of force from the bolts, there
will be good contact between the wood and the mounting plate--the bolts will
either flatten it out, or crush the plywood wood a bit, or something.
This also means that the fittings won't be completely aligned with each
other. Make this up when you mount the landing gear bushing, if you're
using the design on the plans. I used cub-style gear, and only drilled one
end of each mounting bracket. The other end will be match drilled through
the gear.
I drilled the outside fitting before welding, left the inside fitting blank
for the time being. I held the fitting up to the side of the fuselage, and
marked the hole positions by drilling through the fitting hole a bit into
the fuselage. Just do the side at first--easier that way. I then used a
cup bushing to drill through the fuselage side. This is a clear plastic cup
with a drilled bolt screwed into it. You place it on a surface to define
perpendicular. They're available at exhorbatant cost from places like
USATCO or Brown Tools. They make holes that is visually perpendicular, but
not quite accurate enough to line up a fitting.
After I drilled the sides, I shot bolts through for alignment and repeated
the process on the bottom, still without the inside brace.
After all that, and with the outside fitting being held on by four bolts
sticking into holes in the fuselage, I drafted a passerby in the hanger to
hold the inside angle brace in position while I removed a bolt and marked
the hole locations by drilling through the outside fitting and fuselage.
After marking, I finished the hole in the drill press, and then pushed the
bolt through the inside angle for alignment, and did another hole.
Actually, I think I wound up marking two holes at a time. It was still lots
of assembly / disassembly, but all of the holes came out connecting with
something.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | question about fuel |
Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel problems.
Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear " auto fuel
melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too much lead, 100LL
has less but still too much." There are additives for this and that.
The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad.
Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi without
a tuneup???
What IS the poop on this??
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Subject: | Re: question about fuel |
Walt, the alcohol in the auto gas is what messes up the rubber stuff. For
what it's worth, citco ( at most locations)
is alcohol free. The only other place with alc free fuel is meijers stores.
You gotta check on the pumps, if it has alc,
it has to say. Most of the guys I know that have A65s use 80 avfuel. Maybe
some of the older grass strips in your area may carry it.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: question about fuel
>
> Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel
problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear "
auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too
much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for
this and that.
> The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad.
> Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past
100,000mi without a tuneup???
> What IS the poop on this??
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: question about fuel |
"Fishnet"
>
>
>Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel
>problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear "
>auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too
>much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for
>this and that.
>The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad.
>Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past
>100,000mi without a tuneup???
>What IS the poop on this??
>walt
>NX140DL
>(north N.J.)
Walt,
My CFI, who also owns the airport, flies his Taylorcraft (A-65) on 100LL
and gripes about it, but it flies. 80 octane avgas is disappearing in this
part of OH.
I believe that there can be other additives in auto gas besides ethanol
that may cause problems; it depends on how they have to formulate the gas
to meet emissions standards in your neck of the woods. How much these
other things may screw things up, I'm not sure.
For what it's worth William Wynne recommends 100LL for the Corvair, but
it's a different beast & was designed to run on high-octane auto gas that
had lots more lead than 100LL does today.
Cheers,
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Subject: | Re: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List Digest: |
You can go to http://www.eaa1067.org/images/jig.jpg and see a picture of one
I made. You put the drill in from the right and place the bolt in the hole
in the metal fitting on the left. When making the jig you drill out the
left hole with the drill coming from the right. That makes the drill come
out exactly where the hole is on the left. It pushes the bolt out of the
way and you have a straight hole drilled from a hole in the fitting on one
side to the hole in the fitting on the other. Hope this helps.
Ted Brousseau
You could also got to http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm and see
some pics of the First Annual Intergalactic Pietenpol Association meeting
held recently at the Thomasville GA fly-in. Did I spell that correctly Don?
One of the pics at the bottom of the page is the drill jig.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List
>
> >
> >This tool appeared in either Experimenter or Sport
> >Av. a while back. It was welded out of a C clamp
> >and tubing. I made up 2, a 1/8" and 3/16" out of
> >copper pipe fittings, SS tube in 12" lengths from
> >the hobby shop and epoxy putty. Putting the tube
> >through the whole thing, puttying where it went through
> >the two ends then cutting out an appropriate length
> >gap when dry assured perfect alignment. I've
> >mean't to put a picture up on mykitplane but never
> >seemed to get around to it. So Eugene, why don't
> >we both do pics to clear up the mud.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
> >To:
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drilling for Fittings, was Pietenpol-List
Digest: 0
>
> Clif,
>
> Yes, please, a picture would be great!
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for the words of encouragement. Since I have, in fact, been a
> drunken sailor on an occasion or two (a month at sea will make you lose
> your normal sense of moderation when you get a 6-hr. shore visit!), yes,
it
> wasn't the straightest landing in the world, it was a landing. I'm well
> aware how lucky I am to have a competent tailwheel instructor, I sure hope
> you find one for Ben; is he hooked on open cockpits after the ride with
> Mikey (sure did it for me!).
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kip Gardner (home with a sick 3-year old today - on her birthday, no less)
>
> 426 Schneider St. SE
> North Canton, OH 44720
> (330) 494-1775
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> |
Subject: | Looking for Corvair |
Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been sitting in
the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I have concluded that
it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine packed with mouse nests,
and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or rusted soild. I opened
up the case and found the crank and connecting rods are caked with thick rust.
Two spark plugs are busted off in the heads. So, I'm back to checking all
the central PA salvage yards for an engine. I checked out the CORSA site classifieds
but found nothing. I also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com
to see if they can find one. Any other ideas where to look?
Thanks
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | question about fuel |
Hi Walt,
Hopefully Chris Bobka will weigh in on this one, but I'll give my two cents
worth.
The other respondents are correct - it is primarily the alcohol in autogas
that causes the problem. Whether or not you will have a problem depends on
the components in your fuel system - it shouldn't hurt the engine itself
(the A65 was designed to run on 73 Octane, and in the late 30's when it was
designed, avgas hadn't been invented yet). The usual problem is the needle
valve in the carburetor. The original design used a neoprene tip that made
a nice effective seal against the brass valve seat. However, the neoprene
tip is attacked by alcohol and tends to swell and distort, and eventually
partially dissolve. I had a J-3 Cub with an A-65 back in the late 70's and
early 80's and ran autogas in it for about a year and then noticed the
engine running way too rich, with a definite loss in power. I investigated
the problem and found the needle valve in very bad shape. I replaced it
(with another neoprene tipped valve) and switched to 100LL (80/87 wasn't
available in that area) and the problem went away.
Now new needle valves are available made from stainless steel, with no
neoprene tip. I put one in my Pietenpol when I overhauled the carburetor,
but when I tested it to set float level I found that it leaked like a sieve.
Stainless steel just doesn't seal well against brass. I eventually lapped
in the needle valve by smearing Crest toothpaste (which has a mild abrasive
in it) on the needle, chucking it in my drill press and spinning it fairly
slowly while I pressed the brass seat hard against the sealing surface. The
toothpaste did an excellent job as a lapping compound and when I reinstalled
the valve and seat in the carb it didn't leak a drop. I still intend to run
100LL in the Piet - just put the stainless needle valve in just in case I'm
stuck somewhere and have to use car gas.
Some gascolators and selector valves also use neoprene seals and can be made
leaky by using autogas.
Incidentally, while I've heard of the use of 100LL causing lead deposits on
the spark plugs, I never saw it on that J-3, nor on the Cessna 140 (C85
Continental) that I owned up until this past April.
Your mileage may vary.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: question about fuel
Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel
problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear "
auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too
much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for
this and that.
The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad.
Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi
without a tuneup???
What IS the poop on this??
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Subject: | Re: Looking for Corvair |
Hold on there! not so fast!!!
Chances are the case is perfect... the heads are probably fine too... just
EZ out the plugs and have the heads done at a head shop.
Typically it's the case and heads that really count anyway... all the rest
pretty much gets replaced.
Are you on the Corvair email list?? If not you oughta join! Lots of
friendly guys who really know their Corvairs.
I'm about 60% done with my Corvair rebuild. Coming along nicely!
DJ Vegh
N74DV
www.raptoronline.com
----- Original Message -----
From: morrisons5 <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Corvair
>
> Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been
sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I have
concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine packed
with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or rusted
soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting rods are
caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the heads. So,
I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an engine. I
checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just sent
a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any other
ideas where to look?
>
> Thanks
> Malcolm Morrison
>
>
This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
Subject: | question about fuel |
Walt
The auto gas problem in the USA may be different than here in Canada but
here goes: The 80/87 is the octane rating. Octane is a measurement of the
rate at which the fuel burns. 100 or 110LL are higher in number and actually
burn slower, therefore less prone to detonation knocking. The Av gasoline's
still contain tetraethyl lead as an additive to slow combustion and as a
side benefit the lead coats the valves with lead oxide. The oxide prevents
the valves from sticking to the seats and tearing microscopic molecules of
metal away from the seats as the engine runs. The lead oxide is what gives
exhaust stacks of aircraft that light gray colour. It is also poisoning our
brain cells....!!!??? Too much lead as in 110LL tends to build up on the
plugs of low compression ratio engines such as our beloved A65. Aggressive
leaning will keep the plug hotter reducing the problem a bit.
Auto gas is not controlled as closely, as to exact content of the blend, and
tends to be more volatile than av gas. This can lead to vapour lock which is
why the fed man gets so upset about us using it. The auto gas does also have
a tendency to harm the rubber parts in older systems. The easy fix on non
certified machines is a change to neoprene.
One more point. Av gas does not go "sour" as quickly as auto gas. If you are
putting your aircraft, using auto gas, in storage. Drain the auto gas and
run it up, and out, of fuel on avgas. This will prevent gummy deposits from
forming in your fuel system.
The other alternative is to add a fuel stabilizer.
Back to the valve seat issue: If you decide to run a lot of auto gas through
your engine, check for valve seat wear. They can wear out fast enough to use
up all your lifter travel. When the valve operates with no clearance wear
drastically increases.
Bottom line for me is I prefer to take the lead fouling and higher price of
AV gas for the peace of mind rather than the carb gumming, vapour lock
(unlikely at our altitudes) and system incompatibility of the auto gas.
Fly safe!
John
P.S. Congrats on completing your Piet Walt. Wish I wasn't so busy and could
make the same progress on mine.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: question about fuel
Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel
problems. Now that I'm ready to fly my new project with an A-65, I hear "
auto fuel melts your rubber parts, gaskets and needles, 100 oct has too
much lead, 100LL has less but still too much." There are additives for
this and that.
The old days when I just mixed some oil with gas, now doesn't seem so bad.
Why is the new auto fuel bad for the A-65, but my new van is past 100,000mi
without a tuneup???
What IS the poop on this??
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Subject: | Re: question about fuel |
Some time back there was a discussion on fuels
with quite a lot of good info.
Also, I came across an excellent article on fuel
entitled " Gas Tech, the real facts about octane "
in Hemmings Rods and Performance-March 02
There's a good paragraph on avgas. The article
covers just about anything you want to know
about fuel.
I just checked their website-no back issue articles
evident.
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
>
> Figured when I got away from 2 strokes, I'd get away from all the fuel
problems. Now that I'm >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John_Duprey(at)vmed.org |
Subject: | Re: Looking for Corvair |
10/23/2002 07:42:42 AM
Malcolm: Go back to the CORSA web site and find the local chapter in your
area, these guys will be a great resource in finding a good rebuildable
core in your area. That is how I got mine. Good Luck!
John Duprey
"morrisons5" (at)matronics.com on 10/22/2002 10:32:24
PM
Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Corvair
Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been
sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I have
concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine
packed with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or
rusted soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting rods
are caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the heads.
So, I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an engine. I
checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just sent
a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any other
ideas where to look?
Thanks
Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Malcolm wrote:
>After some disassembly I have concluded that it is junk.
Malcolm, I agree with DJ... don't junk it just yet! If you look at some of
the CorvAIRCRAFT builders' sites at their "before" and "after" pictures,
you'll see that you have plenty of things that are salvageable and usable,
more than likely. Some of the castings like the front cover (bellhousing)
and heads are almost certainly salvageable. The case is the main thing you
need to look at, and once it's stripped down it can be checked to see if the
cam bearing bores are within spec. Since the Corvair cam doesn't use
bearing inserts, once the bores are out of spec the case is junk, but it's
rare to find one that badly worn. The rest can usually be cleaned up and
used as a good starting point. The oil pump end of the engine is generally
not interchangeable between blocks, so don't try to salvage just that piece
if the block is out of spec. But I'm with DJ... hold onto your horses
there!
The cylinders get exchanged for a rebored set anyway, so be careful when
removing the old pistons (which are probably corroded solid into the bores).
Soaking overnight in WD40 or Liquid Wrench or something, then tapping the
pistons free with a block of wood, does it. Cylinders with broken fins
aren't as easily returned for cores. The rods can be cut off and thrown
away and the crank can be replaced if it's junk, but by all means try to
salvage your heads and cases. I saw some rebuilt heads at the machine shop
that had basically sat full of water (in the chambers) for 20 years.
Pitted, corroded, ugly- but they are cleanable!
However, as in all things, there comes a point when it makes more sense to
find something else. As Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his
limitations".
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
For an idea of how cruddy some of these engines may look coming out of a
junker, take a look at Mark Langford's, at
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/engine_disassy.html
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly |
Group----If there is anyone else besides Jack P. on this list who are or
planning of making
their brake system similar to mine, beware that I had a problem recently
and that you should
take measures to insure your system performs better. See photos of
system here.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov.12.11.2001/
What happened is that after about 280 hours of flying the anti-torque tubes
broke off where they are welded
to the bottom of the axle. I believe that several factors contributed to
this. 1) I should have used thicker wall tubing for these parts. 2) My
tolerance between the "pin/tube" and the "collar" or tube sliding thru a
tube were too sloppy.
3) every time you apply the brakes, the axle wants to rotate forward under
the bungee wraps. This is normal and is exactly what the anti-torque system
is designed to stop. (along with keeping your axel from moving left to
right under the bungees when you make turns, etc.) This slight rocking or
rotating slightly forward of the axle puts a flex load on those
tube-in-tube, anti-torque pins and bends them slightly. After thousands
of applications of the brakes this rocking, flexing, and bending created
enough slop so that the axle actually would rotate forward about 3/4" when
I would apply the brakes and thus make my brake cables too short and
applying more and more brake the more the axle rotated forward. I was
wondering why my brakes were actually becoming increasingly more effective
! Ha !
Big dummy didn't figure it out in time so one day about 2 weeks ago while
doing a run up the brakes wouldn't release and more power bent/sheard the
anti-torque tubes right off. Make your tolerances tight and keep the
pins greased.
I think Carl Loar has a sketch of my system on his web site possibly if you
can't envision the system from the pics.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
For those of us lucky enough to have flying Piets I have a question,
actually two 1. are most of the Piets out there using cabane struts of the
length shown in the plans?? and 2.Does standard length give adequate room
for average size, nimble people to get in and out of the front pit without
too much whineing. I'm getting ready to order tubing. I'd rather not
lengthen them because that would raise the center of drag which might
aggrevate any tail heavy tendancys that Piets with light engines are famous
for. I know some guys have lengthened them.I guess I just need to know if
it's really necessary. All opinions respected of course.
TIA Ed G.
>From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "Jim Kinsella" , "John Greenlee"
>, "Lou Larson" , "Michael
>Madrid" , "Michael D Cuy"
>, "Skip Gadd" , "Steve
>Eldredge" , "Donny Emch" ,
>"Pietenpol-List Digest Server"
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet update
>Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:08:38 -0400
>
>
>Friends-
>
>Some of you have asked for an update on my Piet since Brodhead so, here it
>is.
>
>I copied the intact half of John Greenlee's Ray Hegy prop onto my Red
>Oak/Maple blank. John's prop was 76x44, mine is 2" shorter hence the pitch
>comes out a bit higher. I have studied several sources about prop-building
>and can say with authority that no two prop makers use the same data to
>arrive at their pitch numbers. Some use half diameter, others use 2/3
>diameter and some use the tip!!! Even the formulas that should be the one
>constant are interpreted differently.
>The point is; if you're looking for a prop, try to find what someone (or a
>lot of someones) are having success with and go with that. I measured my
>Falcon prop that was stamped 74x42 and the pitch came out to be 51" based
>on another sources' formulas!!!! Even the Sensenich at 44" pitch was more
>like 48". So whose figures do you use? My advice is that unless you are
>willing to make several props, go with the crowd or copy a known quantity
>like I did.
>Now- the prop that I have made seems like it is a little better in the
>climb and cruises at a given speed at 50 rpm less than the Sensenich.
>Sounds like a winner, right? BUT the outside air temp is about 35 degrees
>cooler than when I flew to Brodhead so the jury is still out on performance
>until I can duplicate the 90 degree days of summer. Of course by that time
>I should have a lot more hours on the "A" and that will help, too.
>I am very happy that I built (copied) my new prop. It certainly isn't any
>worse than the two previous ones and it's one more thing that I can say is
>home-made. Makes me feel independent and "accomplished" but best of all, it
>gets me back into the sky!
>
>Larry
>
>ps. I found out that keeping the forward cockpit cover in place while
>flying (trying to stay warm!) seems to create a lot more turbulence for the
>pilot. My next step is to take off the front windshield and see what effect
>that has.
>
>
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Cabane survey |
Ed,
I went 2" longer as ala Mike Cuy. I like the additional room and especially
the vision. About the extra drag, don't even consider it as a Piet is a Piet
and like most water vessels it has a definite hull speed and no matter what
you do to it power or minimize drag you will probably still fly low and slow
and have a ball. My next Piet, if you believe in that reincarnation stuff, I
will use round tubes for all struts and streamline with balsa and dacron.
Lindbergh did it that way why not Pieters
Corky with 41CC and 9 hrs of test time behind it.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Looking for Corvair |
>
>Well, I finally got the Corvair engine from my neighbor that had been
>sitting in the back of his garage for years. After some disassembly I
>have concluded that it is junk. I removed the shroud and found the engine
>packed with mouse nests, and lots of rust and corrosion. It is seized, or
>rusted soild. I opened up the case and found the crank and connecting
>rods are caked with thick rust. Two spark plugs are busted off in the
>heads. So, I'm back to checking all the central PA salvage yards for an
>engine. I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I
>also just sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find
>one. Any other ideas where to look?
>
>Thanks
>Malcolm Morrison
Malcolm,
Don't bother with the CORSA classifieds. Use the national CORSA web site to
get the names & phone #'s of contacts for CORSA chapters within your
region. Then e-mail or call these folks & tell them what you are looking
for. There are always at least one or two guys in each chapter that have a
small-to-large collection of engines & these contact folks will know who
they are. I found a guy near Cleveland this way & he gave a really nice
engine that will be perfect for rebuilding.
Good luck,
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com> |
Subject: | Re: Looking for Corvair |
Malcolm,
The others that say to try to save your engine may be right. However you
need to be sure that you are saveing the right engine. Do you have William's
book? If so is the case and heads the one that will give you a set of 9:1
heads and is the engine a 164 cubic inch engine? If you do not have
William's book you need it. Check the case number located near the oil
filler on the crankcase. The head codes are cast on the end of each head. If
you do not have William's manual but plan to get it we can help you identify
if you have the right parts. I have worked an an auto mechanic for more than
30 years and although I am the prowd owner of a Corvair engine I must say
that I have not much experience with Corvair engines. I also have not worked
on many engines that were rusted solid, most of the cars I work on are
running cars or have been running recentally. But I am told by the guys who
work in the machine shop that is part of the auto repair shop I work in that
Coca Cola will sometimes free up a rust stuck engine. They say to pour some
in the spark plug hole and tilt the engine so it covers the piston an inch
or more deep, let it soak overnight. You have nothing to lose in my opinion
but consult your lawyer or clergyman to be sure. Also, in your engine search
try to find dumpy grease pit "junkyards" not well run computerised "Auto
Parts Recyclers". Auto Recyclers never have anything 30 yeras old unless it
is a Porsche or Corvette.
Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "George Allen" <GeorgeA(at)paonline.com> |
Subject: | Re: Looking for Corvair |
Malcolm, find the local CORSA chapter. Their is one in Lancaster or Lebanon
area.(PA) Might be Harrisburg.
There is a place near York, PA that has a field full of cars and engines and
he works on them. He's always at the Corvair shows in the area hawking is
wares. When I find his card I'll let everyone know where he is exactly.
Where are you located?
George Allen
Harrisburg, PA
GeorgeA(at)PAonline.com
(Peitenpol builder)
----- Original Message -----
From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
I checked out the CORSA site classifieds but found nothing. I also just
sent a parts request to junkyarddog.com to see if they can find one. Any
other ideas where to look?
>
> Thanks
> Malcolm Morrison
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | thanks for responses to "question about fuel" |
Thanks for the responses. I also checked with an instructor near me who flies alot
of hours in his planes. He's the guy who gave Harrison Ford his taildragger
endorsement for his movie.
We talked about alot of stuff, but what it boiled down to was.....
As far as the auto gas melting critical rubber parts, he pointed to a Cessna
L-19 out front that " had many, many hours on it with auto gas , and he looked
at the carb needle personly and it wasn't distorted or soft, seemed to be fine.
As far as the lead issue,,,,,he recommended to run about 3 loads of auto gas to
one of 100LL, to get the best of both worlds.
the two things he told me seem to make sense, so I'll start with that.
He also said that Amoco reg is what he uses. And he puts alot of hours on alot
of planes.
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Ted
Thanks again for the ride in your Piet at Thomasville. It's given me a boost while
I am mounting my wing to the fuse. The pics are great.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly |
Hi Mike,
Many thanks for the warning! I made my pins pretty thick (.058" wall) but I
might see if I can make them thicker, and I'll watch the slop. Did they
both break at once? I would think that would be better than only one
breaking.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly
Group----If there is anyone else besides Jack P. on this list who are or
planning of making
their brake system similar to mine, beware that I had a problem recently
and that you should
take measures to insure your system performs better.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
Subject: | Piet AD on my (or your) brake system possibly |
Thanks Mike! Will keep that in mind when I get back to my axle.
John
What happened is that after about 280 hours of flying the anti-torque tubes
broke off where they are welded
to the bottom of the axle. I believe that several factors contributed to
this. 1) I should have used thicker wall tubing for these parts. 2) My
tolerance between the "pin/tube" and the "collar" or tube sliding thru a
tube were too sloppy.
3) every time you apply the brakes, the axle wants to rotate forward under
the bungee wraps. This is normal and is exactly what the anti-torque system
is designed to stop. (along with keeping your axel from moving left to
right under the bungees when you make turns, etc.) This slight rocking or
rotating slightly forward of the axle puts a flex load on those
tube-in-tube, anti-torque pins and bends them slightly. After thousands
of applications of the brakes this rocking, flexing, and bending created
enough slop so that the axle actually would rotate forward about 3/4" when
I would apply the brakes and thus make my brake cables too short and
applying more and more brake the more the axle rotated forward. I was
wondering why my brakes were actually becoming increasingly more effective
! Ha !
Big dummy didn't figure it out in time so one day about 2 weeks ago while
doing a run up the brakes wouldn't release and more power bent/sheard the
anti-torque tubes right off. Make your tolerances tight and keep the
pins greased.
I think Carl Loar has a sketch of my system on his web site possibly if you
can't envision the system from the pics.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
O K , Kip, I took pics after work and put them
up on www.mykitplane.com . Go to picture album,
then Clif, then pietenpol. Voila! they're at the
bottom of the pile.
Also there are some pics of my mockpit. I moved
the throttle quad 9 times to finaly find the right
location and also determined that I need the fuse
to be 24" wide at the pilots seat back for safe
arm movement. I'm very glad I took the time to
make this thing up. Any mistrakes made here are
a lot easier to live with and correct than on the real
thing, like forinstance, finding out if you want longer
center struts. I'll go back to making engine noises
now. Clif
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | Piet AD on my (or your) brake system |
possibly
>
>Jack P. wrote: did they both break at once?
Jack-- Here is the "rest of the story". About 2 years ago I let some
hotshot "Pitts" pilot land it
from the front seat. Well suffice it to say, I wouldn't fly with this
guy in anything ever again. I was
at fault for letting him do that without knowing his skills better, but the
thing ground looped at a fairly
slow speed. It bent one of those pins and pretty much broke the
weld. Not wanting to remove the axle
in the middle of summer I did a "fix" that used a long threaded 1/4" rod on
the ID of the tube that threaded
into the axle to hold the pin. I'm sure that side broke a while back
thinking about this is retrospect.
So no, I think the pins broke a different times. I'll be more vigilant
in pre-flighting them and watching the
movement as I brake in the future. PS--other than my getting lazy about
watching for signs of this happening,
I really like the system and have no regrets about using it.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures |
In a message dated 10/22/2002 9:48:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nfn00979(at)naples.net writes:
> You could also got to http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm and see
> some pics of the First Annual Intergalactic Pietenpol Association meeting
> held recently at the Thomasville GA fly-in. Did I spell that correctly
Don?
> One of the pics at the bottom of the page is the drill jig.
>
Thanks for those great Pictures Ted !
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures |
From: | Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
I took a look at the pictures at
http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm
I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can
anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind
the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans
wrong?
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dick and Marge Gillespie" <dickmarg(at)peganet.com> |
Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures |
It's a GN-1.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
>
> I took a look at the pictures at
> http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm
>
> I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can
> anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit,
behind
> the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans
> wrong?
>
> Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures |
could be a GN-1 looks that way... or maybe a Piet with GN-1 control system.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures
I took a look at the pictures at
http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm
I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can
anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind
the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans
wrong?
Mike
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures |
Mike
No, you are reading the plans correctly. I think that 30PP's set up
like a GN-1 with the cables coming off the front cockpit control
tube. If you look at the picture called Harry you will see a small
cable going up vertically behind the front cabane and then the
aileron horn cable running back from the forward part of the wing in
the distance. I don't know if 30PP is a GN-1, but it looks like that
is what the builder did.
Kirk
>
>I took a look at the pictures at
>http://www.eaa1067.org/thomasville_fly.htm
>
>I may be going blind. The Piet featured in the pictures is N30PP. Can
>anyone tell me why I see bracing cables in front of the rear cockpit, behind
>the front, but I don't see aileron control cables. Am I reading my plans
>wrong?
>
>Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Waytogopiet(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly In Pictures |
Yep, you're absolutely correct....looked it up in the old Funk & Wagnalls !!
Guess we better pass the word that the 2003 meeting will be at the Sun 'n Fun
campgrounds. All Pieters are welcome. Sure enjoyed that ride at
T'homasville!!
Don
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | A Call from the Fedman |
Pieters,
This message is to alert you as to your accuracy in filling out these
Fedforms. I thought I was clean and away from the pack when yesterday the
phone rang, I said hello, he said this is the FAA in Baton Rouge. I thought,
oh sh-- what now. He says, Mr Corbett, we are a little concerned about
issuing you a repairman's certificate for your Pietenpol and we wanted to
check to determine if maybe you made a mistake on filling out the form. I
say, whats the hitch? He says, you have listed your date of birth as 8-2-02
and we are wondering if you are capable of performing the duties of mechanic.
Ole Corky in La but not that ole
Those of you in the tech know how, how does a McCaulley metal prop CM6944 go
with an 0-200? According to ASS catalog I believe it was standard on early
150's. Would like some good advice before laying done that green stuff.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Subject: | A Call from the Fedman |
And we thought with that birthday your were just a young'un!
-----Original Message-----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com [mailto:Isablcorky(at)aol.com]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A Call from the Fedman
Pieters,
This message is to alert you as to your accuracy in filling out these
Fedforms. I thought I was clean and away from the pack when yesterday the
phone rang, I said hello, he said this is the FAA in Baton Rouge. I thought,
oh sh-- what now. He says, Mr Corbett, we are a little concerned about
issuing you a repairman's certificate for your Pietenpol and we wanted to
check to determine if maybe you made a mistake on filling out the form. I
say, whats the hitch? He says, you have listed your date of birth as 8-2-02
and we are wondering if you are capable of performing the duties of
mechanic.
Ole Corky in La but not that ole
Those of you in the tech know how, how does a McCaulley metal prop CM6944 go
with an 0-200? According to ASS catalog I believe it was standard on early
150's. Would like some good advice before laying done that green stuff.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Subject: | Cooling Eyebrows |
Mike,
A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from
dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally but
I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us a
quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles are
there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted
together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any questions
I forgot to ask?
Thanks,
Gene Hubbard
San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | steamlaunch(at)softhome.net |
Subject: | Re: Cooling Eyebrows |
Gene,
Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the
or screw the aluminum to the bracket.
Matt
Hubbard, Eugene writes:
>
> Mike,
>
> A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from
> dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally but
> I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us a
> quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles are
> there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted
> together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any questions
> I forgot to ask?
>
> Thanks,
> Gene Hubbard
> San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Subject: | Cooling Eyebrows |
Matt,
I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the
eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and
is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it
appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders to
hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the internal
structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down at
the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the inside
of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions.
I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached?
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
Gene,
Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the
or screw the aluminum to the bracket.
Matt
Hubbard, Eugene writes:
>
> Mike,
>
> A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from
> dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally
but
> I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give us
a
> quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles
are
> there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they riveted
> together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any
questions
> I forgot to ask?
>
> Thanks,
> Gene Hubbard
> San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | Texas Corvair College |
Howdy, Vair-heads;
William Wynne has agreed to conduct a "Corvair College" here in south Texas,
and we've set the date and location: January 18, 2003, at the San Geronimo
Airpark, home of EAA Chapter 35. Semi-complete details are available at the
following site:
http://www.experimental-aviation.com/SACorvairCollege.html
This is the weekend immediately prior to Super Bowl 2003 and well after the
Christmas and New Year holidays, so you will have no excuses! We're
allowing plenty of time to get parts ordered and get engines cleaned.
Apparently we are not far enough south to be considered "South", so we
aren't calling it the "Southern Comfort Corvair College" anymore. (We had
even thought of holding it in Comfort, TX, home of EAA Chapter 747.)
Anyway, a good way to keep it in mind is the Texas battle cry, "Remember the
Alamo!" and you certainly can visit the Alamo in downtown San Antonio if you
come.
More information will be forthcoming, such as nearby motels, planned
cookouts, that sort of thing. Get your engines and parts ready...
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Cooling Eyebrows |
Gene, Matt,
I copied mine from an old Cub. got the old sheet of oak tag( sorry to
date myself) and masking tape, and went to work.
I did a "rubbing" of the rear area, and then a outline of the large upper
area. Then kind of fudged the rest. Made 4130 tabs in two places on each
to catch the top screws on the valve covers.
for the inboard bracket, made it out of fairly thin 4130 plate. First made
it out of alum. but my AP said no to that. so redid them in 4130 and added
nutplates to hold the eyebrows down.
Made them to contour over the bases of the cyl. and catch the top nut on
each cyl.
I only had non soft alum ( forget what grade) little harder to work with
though. My AP showed me the knack of leaving an extra 1/4 in. on the
pattern and rolling a piece of 1/16" welding rod into the edge. Gives a
nice appearance that won't crack.
Even had to dimple out the top rear for plug clearance.
Let me know and I can send pics. but they're not that much detail
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
>
> Matt,
>
> I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the
> eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and
> is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it
> appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders
to
> hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the
internal
> structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down
at
> the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the
inside
> of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions.
>
> I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached?
>
> Gene
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
>
>
> Gene,
> Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the
> or screw the aluminum to the bracket.
>
> Matt
>
> Hubbard, Eugene writes:
>
>
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from
> > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally
> but
> > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give
us
> a
> > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles
> are
> > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they
riveted
> > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any
> questions
> > I forgot to ask?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gene Hubbard
> > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Cooling Eyebrows |
Oh, forgot to say that I put auto type plugs in the A-65 with some snazzy
spark plug wire that I got from an antique magneto co. Very reasonable.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
>
> Gene, Matt,
> I copied mine from an old Cub. got the old sheet of oak tag( sorry to
> date myself) and masking tape, and went to work.
> I did a "rubbing" of the rear area, and then a outline of the large upper
> area. Then kind of fudged the rest. Made 4130 tabs in two places on each
> to catch the top screws on the valve covers.
> for the inboard bracket, made it out of fairly thin 4130 plate. First
made
> it out of alum. but my AP said no to that. so redid them in 4130 and
added
> nutplates to hold the eyebrows down.
> Made them to contour over the bases of the cyl. and catch the top nut on
> each cyl.
> I only had non soft alum ( forget what grade) little harder to work with
> though. My AP showed me the knack of leaving an extra 1/4 in. on the
> pattern and rolling a piece of 1/16" welding rod into the edge. Gives a
> nice appearance that won't crack.
> Even had to dimple out the top rear for plug clearance.
> Let me know and I can send pics. but they're not that much detail
> walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
>
>
>
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about
the
> > eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back,
and
> > is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it
> > appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders
> to
> > hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the
> internal
> > structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held
down
> at
> > the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the
> inside
> > of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions.
> >
> > I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached?
> >
> > Gene
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net]
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
> >
> >
> >
> > Gene,
> > Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet
the
> > or screw the aluminum to the bracket.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > Hubbard, Eugene writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows
from
> > > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like
externally
> > but
> > > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give
> us
> > a
> > > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal
baffles
> > are
> > > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they
> riveted
> > > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any
> > questions
> > > I forgot to ask?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gene Hubbard
> > > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to
sheetmetal.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | steamlaunch(at)softhome.net |
Subject: | Re: Cooling Eyebrows |
Mr. Evans has given a clear picture of where you are going, sorry my first
email was so perscriptive. And incomplete. The reason you do not want to
clamp the aluminum under the valve cover screw is it will over time with
heat and vibration squish out from under the head of the fastener and cause
an oil leak. Ergo clamp steel tabs in this posistion and fasion your plenum
to fit. Is this for a continental Lycoming or Corvair? The latter would
require retaining the tins under the cylinders pr WW directions!
Good luck!
Matt
walter evans writes:
>
> Gene, Matt,
> I copied mine from an old Cub. got the old sheet of oak tag( sorry to
> date myself) and masking tape, and went to work.
> I did a "rubbing" of the rear area, and then a outline of the large upper
> area. Then kind of fudged the rest. Made 4130 tabs in two places on each
> to catch the top screws on the valve covers.
> for the inboard bracket, made it out of fairly thin 4130 plate. First made
> it out of alum. but my AP said no to that. so redid them in 4130 and added
> nutplates to hold the eyebrows down.
> Made them to contour over the bases of the cyl. and catch the top nut on
> each cyl.
> I only had non soft alum ( forget what grade) little harder to work with
> though. My AP showed me the knack of leaving an extra 1/4 in. on the
> pattern and rolling a piece of 1/16" welding rod into the edge. Gives a
> nice appearance that won't crack.
> Even had to dimple out the top rear for plug clearance.
> Let me know and I can send pics. but they're not that much detail
> walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
>
>
>
>>
>> Matt,
>>
>> I think I'm a couple of steps behind you. Just about all I know about the
>> eyebrow structure is that it is open in the front, closed in the back, and
>> is trapped by the valve cover screws on the outside. From pictures, it
>> appears that there is some sort of clamp that fits between the cylinders
> to
>> hold the structure in place. I have no clear understanding of the
> internal
>> structure, the baffling between the cylinders or of how they're held down
> at
>> the crankcase end. If someone could e-mail me a digital photo of the
> inside
>> of an eyebrow, it would answer a lot of questions.
>>
>> I guess my first question is where the bracket is attached?
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: steamlaunch(at)softhome.net [mailto:steamlaunch(at)softhome.net]
>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
>>
>>
>>
>> Gene,
>> Do not clamp on the aluminum, instead attach a steel bracket and rivet the
>> or screw the aluminum to the bracket.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> Hubbard, Eugene writes:
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Mike,
>> >
>> > A few months ago, there was a thread about making cooling eyebrows from
>> > dead-soft 0.24 aluminum. I know what Cub eyebrows look like externally
>> but
>> > I don't have easy access to one to inspect and measure--could you give
> us
>> a
>> > quick description of your design process? What, if any internal baffles
>> are
>> > there? Externally, each part looks like it's two pieces. Are they
> riveted
>> > together? What do the hold-down clamps attach to? Are there any
>> questions
>> > I forgot to ask?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Gene Hubbard
>> > San Diego, with woodwork done and trying to get oriented to sheetmetal.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Gene,
sorry forgot about the dimples,,,,,guess my dimensions somehow differ from
the original, cause when I put them on the rear plugs came a little too
close to the alum cover. So I marked the spot and "dimpled" out the area
from the inside till the was clearance.
To dimple the alum. I got a bag of lead shot from the gun shop. Smaller
pellets, not 00buck. and you lay the spot over the let and hit the other
side with a round end tool, or a reshaped hammer, guess you could even
round a piece of ash. Keep working the area till you get the shape you
want. And the alum I used was harder then normal. The soft should be
easier to work. You'll be amazed how good it comes out.
also used this method when fabricating the engine cowl, the breather elbow
on the A-65 needed a dimple in the cowl.
walt
(figured I'd share it with the group)
Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Eyebrows
> Walt,
>
> Thanks for the description. Tell me more about the dimples for the rear
> plugs. Did you run your plug wires inside the eyebrows?
>
> Thanks again.
> Gene
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | cooling eyebrows |
Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers;
Not sure if this is of any help unless you're using a Franklin engine, but
may be good for some cooling eyebrow ideas anyway. There are some fairly
close-up pictures of the eyebrows on Ernie Moreno's Piet on my website, at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets2.html The last picture on the page
is the most detailed.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
I have a nice A-65 that I had planned on using in a pietenpol, however I have
decided on a Model A engine.
The A-65 has less than 900 hours since new, and 60 hours since overhaul. It
has been sitting since 1974. I removed one cylinder and it had some minor
rust that would hone out, the bottom end is rust free. I would either do a
complete tear down and inspection, or remove all four cylinders and re-ring
before use.
I have all logs since brand new when it was installed in a cub, the first log
came from piper with a picture of a cub on it.
It is flange shaft.
I will take $2800.00 for it, comes with carb, and magnetos.
I live in Oklahoma, and would not want to ship. I prefer you coming to pick
it up.
E-mail if you are interested, and I will give you my phone number.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | Officially entered Phase l |
for NX140DL.
It feels great after all this work ( but I loved it).
empty weight 595#
35 mi radius from Newton airport ( more room cause of a controlled airspace to
the east) with landing OK'd at Newton and Sussex ( for fuel)
25 hour fly off with A-65 continental and Sensenich combo.
Thanks to my AP Mentor , Dick Lawson for getting me thru 2 projects,,,,and all
the guys on these groups.
Is this the Oscars???
AIN'T LIFE GRAND?????
Sorry if I missed any keys, my hands are sore from doing hand springs all the way
down the runway.
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Officially entered Phase l |
GREAT,
Welcome to the club. Yes life is grand. Hope you enjoy your fly off. Are you
sure you didn't leave something off to get that 595? Congrats.
Corky and Isabelle in La watching someone else fly their plane.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Officially entered Phase l |
Thanks Corky,
Y'know the weight bothered me, so I brought all calibrated weights to check
the scales. They seem to be OK. Give or take 1# @ 300 lbs.range.
My DAR came from Long Island NY ( for the second time to bring me the
paperwork, and wanted to see it fly! and seemed disappointed not to!)
Don't worry the sport thing is just around the corner!!!!!
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Officially entered Phase l
>
> GREAT,
> Welcome to the club. Yes life is grand. Hope you enjoy your fly off. Are
you
> sure you didn't leave something off to get that 595? Congrats.
> Corky and Isabelle in La watching someone else fly their plane.
> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Officially entered Phase l |
Way to go, Walt!
I'm about a year behind you.
595 lbs., huh? That's very good. She ought to perform great for you!
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Officially entered Phase l
certificate for NX140DL.
It feels great after all this work ( but I loved it).
empty weight 595#
35 mi radius from Newton airport ( more room cause of a controlled airspace
to the east) with landing OK'd at Newton and Sussex ( for fuel)
25 hour fly off with A-65 continental and Sensenich combo.
Thanks to my AP Mentor , Dick Lawson for getting me thru 2 projects,,,,and
all the guys on these groups.
Is this the Oscars???
AIN'T LIFE GRAND?????
Sorry if I missed any keys, my hands are sore from doing hand springs all
the way down the runway.
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
Subject: | Re: Officially entered Phase l |
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Officially entered Phase l
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Walt,
Congratulations! Hope to see you at Brodhead next year.
John
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
certificate for NX140DL.
> It feels great after all this work ( but I loved it).
> empty weight 595#
> 35 mi radius from Newton airport ( more room cause of a controlled
airspace to the east) with landing OK'd at Newton and Sussex ( for fuel)
> 25 hour fly off with A-65 continental and Sensenich combo.
> Thanks to my AP Mentor , Dick Lawson for getting me thru 2 projects,,,,and
all the guys on these groups.
> Is this the Oscars???
> AIN'T LIFE GRAND?????
> Sorry if I missed any keys, my hands are sore from doing hand springs all
the way down the runway.
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Officially entered Phase l |
What corner?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
While it will be some time before use I would like to ask all of you to keep
in mind I need several things to complete the 0-200 I recently acquired and
if you hear of their availibility to please let me hear from you. 1. A pair
of Scintilla -21 mags 2. That fitting on the rear of the case that the oil
screen screws into. I seem to have everything else. As I will use it on Piet
# 2 there will be no need for a starter or gen so these items are surplus and
could be used for trading. Also the baffles.
Would appreciate help on this matter.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | 3/32 Control Cables |
I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are not
acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the
pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not intended
for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley
and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would rather
not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem
(real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
pulleys?
Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of a
problem with using the light stuff?
Best Regards,
Kevin Holcomb
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Corky,
I think I might have the piece the screen screws into. Also, I am checking
to see about the manuals. Bear with me a few more days.
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts for 0-200
Pieters,
While it will be some time before use I would like to ask all of you to keep
in mind I need several things to complete the 0-200 I recently acquired and
if you hear of their availibility to please let me hear from you. 1. A pair
of Scintilla -21 mags 2. That fitting on the rear of the case that the oil
screen screws into. I seem to have everything else. As I will use it on Piet
# 2 there will be no need for a starter or gen so these items are surplus
and
could be used for trading. Also the baffles.
Would appreciate help on this matter.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | Wanted: Electronic copies of Old Pietenpol photos for |
webpage
When I am not working, flying or scratching my head over my Pietenpol
project I maintain a personal aviation history webpage.
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ It started out as the perfect
complement for my flying hobby as flying seemed to empty my pockets of all
cash before I had spent even a fraction of my spare time. Thus I needed a
low cost/no cost hobby to fill the rest of my spare time. As a result, I
started an aviation history webpage some time ago that details selected
pioneer era, great war and golden age aircraft. I wanted to cover primarily
personal aircraft, however it has largely taken on a course of its own as I
have gone where I could find material. I recently added the Air Camper to
the covered aircraft and would dearly love to add some vintage pictures of
the Air Camper and/or Sky Scout to the page. I dont want to do a page of
'how it's built' as there are several very good resources for that already
on the web. Rather I would like to show it how it was. If anyone has
photos of Air Campers taken prior to 1940 I would appreciate electronic
copies for use on the web page. I will of course attach the appropriate
credit to the pictures. Hints on where to look for photos are appreciated
as well.
Best Regards,
Kevin Holcomb
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: Parts for 0-200 |
Don't get locked into one brand of mags. It might be much cheaper to go with
a complete package of slicks with harness from Mattituck. No ADs and brand
new technology or you can even use Eisemanns.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts for 0-200
>
> Pieters,
> While it will be some time before use I would like to ask all of you to
keep
> in mind I need several things to complete the 0-200 I recently acquired
and
> if you hear of their availibility to please let me hear from you. 1. A
pair
> of Scintilla -21 mags 2. That fitting on the rear of the case that the oil
> screen screws into. I seem to have everything else. As I will use it on
Piet
> # 2 there will be no need for a starter or gen so these items are surplus
and
> could be used for trading. Also the baffles.
> Would appreciate help on this matter.
> Corky in La
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | Re: Cooling Eyebrows |
Gene, group----I made my cooling eyebrows patterned after a set of beat up
Cub eyebrows
and used dead soft .024" alum. from Dillsburg Aeroworks in PA. I didn't
use any internal baffling,
just a two-piece design riveted together. Also I had to fabricate two
angle pieces out of aluminum that
bolt to the upper cylinder head bolts to secure the top of the baffle
to. Then there are two metal fittings
fastened to the outter edge of the baffles that attach to the upper
screws/bolts of the valve covers. Jack P.
just fabricated a nice set and might have photos somewhere.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Cooling Eyebrows |
One of the big cautions is to never, I mean NEVER, put anything that is
softer than 4130 steel under a cylinder hold down nut. Better yet,
literature, including SBs from both Lycoming and Continental as well as the
Bingelis (Firewall Forward page 129) and EAA How To books, implore you not
to put ANYTHING under the hold down nuts. The reason? Vibration and
cyclical stresses will tend to loosen the nut or allow the material between
the nut and the cylinder base to squeeze out, lowering the tightness of the
nut on the stud and allowing the nut to loosen up. History has shown that
when one nut loosens up then the others will too. It is just a matter of
time.
How can it ever happen? Just ask my buddy Danny Doyle of McKinney, Texas
who had a cylinder loosen up in flight. By the time he made the ground, the
case and the cylinder were toast. And that was at idle power. He says to
also always use PAL nuts on each stud as an extra precaution. If you visit
his strip, he will do a subtle inspection of your engine. If he sees you do
not have PAL nuts, he will pull a packaged set from his pocket and GIVE them
to you, making you promise to put them on.
Now I know that you don't have much of a choice with the eyebrows so go
ahead and use the cylinder hold down studs as an attach point but definitely
make the attach fittings out of 4130/4140. This material is comparable in
hardness to the 4140 the cylinder barrels are made of.
Also it is prudent to make some 1/4 circles back to back that can be
attached to the lower side between the two cylinders on each side to help
guide the air through the fins on the underside of the cylinder. Likewise,
the rear of the Cub-style air scoops should wrap around the back of the
cylinder to a point at about the 7:30 position. This should attach with a
little spring to the rear of the 1/4 circle just ahead of it. See Bingelis'
Firewall Forward page 127. This is all to keep the cooling uniform. It is
imperitive that the air go through the fins and nut just past the cylinders
with an offhand chance the fins might see enough of it. Your engine might
appear to be running well now but what about in 600 hrs?
Go look at the cylinder underside of a taylorcraft or a cessna 140/150 to
see a really good way to keep the air in the fins and not around them.
Gaps in the baffling are to be kept to a 1/16" maximum. Also, it is wise to
give the baffling a good shove in the direction of the air load to see how
far it moves away from its intended placement. You do not want air to take
a least path of resisitance around the fins. The baffling must be held in
place to force the air THROUGH the fins.
It is also a good idea to direct undisturbed cold air along the bottom of
the case with the intent to spill it onto the oil sump to enhance cooling.
See Bingelis' Firewall Forward page 131 for a tray to accomplish this or
look at a taylorcraft or cessna 140/150. Otherwise you have to rely on very
turbulent air that is already warmed by the cylinders to cool your oil. Not
very good for flying to Brodhead in July.
chris bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling Eyebrows
Gene, group----I made my cooling eyebrows patterned after a set of beat up
Cub eyebrows
and used dead soft .024" alum. from Dillsburg Aeroworks in PA. I didn't
use any internal baffling,
just a two-piece design riveted together. Also I had to fabricate two
angle pieces out of aluminum that
bolt to the upper cylinder head bolts to secure the top of the baffle
to. Then there are two metal fittings
fastened to the outter edge of the baffles that attach to the upper
screws/bolts of the valve covers. Jack P.
just fabricated a nice set and might have photos somewhere.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows
directly
to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum
or 4130.
Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting,
not the cyl hold-down
bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the
nut and it's lots easier
just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting.
Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero
Junkworks and
there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
Mike,
Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a
matter of time...
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows
directly
to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum
or 4130.
Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting,
not the cyl hold-down
bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the
nut and it's lots easier
just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting.
Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero
Junkworks and
there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
Test. -Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
> Cuy
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:35 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
>
>
>
>
> Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows
> directly
> to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum
> or 4130.
> Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting,
> not the cyl hold-down
> bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the
> nut and it's lots easier
> just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting.
>
> Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero
> Junkworks and
> there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
>
>Mike,
>
>Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a
>matter of time...
It's what the Cub uses....works fine for me. I'm talking about the right
angle piece that runs from
cyl to cyl under the pal nuts and has floating locking nutplates on the top
angle to secure the 0000 eyebrows.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Cylinder hold down bolts, or studs |
Cylinder studs are subject to tension every time the jug fires. When one nut
becomes loose the others have to make for this loss. That's why correct
torque is imperative. If a person chooses to install a light material under
a nut it will be a matter of time before the material is hammered out,
causing the torque on that nut to be less. After this happens it is only a
matter of time before the others are stretched out, and the cylinder can
actually be blown off. I worked on a Bell 47 one time that this had happened
too, although the cylinder never departed the case several studs had broken
and a severe oil leek appeared. The result was a trashed case, and cylinder.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
Mike,
The cub parts I have are steel.
chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
>
>Mike,
>
>Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a
>matter of time...
It's what the Cub uses....works fine for me. I'm talking about the right
angle piece that runs from
cyl to cyl under the pal nuts and has floating locking nutplates on the top
angle to secure the 0000 eyebrows.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | leading edge with wire inside |
Gene, group,
One thing that I forgot to mention is that to prevent cracking in the
leading edges of your aluminum cooling
eyebrows you can 'hem in' a length of 1/16" diam. wire for added strength
there and vibration resistance. I just
cut some hard maple plywood to the same curved shape as the leading edge of
the baffle and used a rubber mallet
to bend over about 1/2" of the LE of the baffle then laid the wire inside
the curve and finished flattening the hem.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com> |
Does anyone know of a partially completed Sky Scout lurking in a dark corner somewhere?
I'm going through "builders withdrawal" !!! Help!
Larry
"Pull the chocks"
The Red Baron's last recorded words
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
Kevin,
One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
mind that all people have different opinions)
Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to
be 1/8".
Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
DAR didn't say anything.
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
not
> acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the
> pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
intended
> for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley
> and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
rather
> not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem
> (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> pulleys?
>
> Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of
a
> problem with using the light stuff?
>
> Best Regards,
> Kevin Holcomb
> http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
Yup... as I recall the AC43-13 says control cables are supposed to be 1/8".
flying/bracing wires may be 3/32"
I'm doing 1/8" control cables throughout my GN-1.
DJ Vegh
www.raptoronline.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> Kevin,
> One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
> mind that all people have different opinions)
> Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed
to
> be 1/8".
> Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
> DAR didn't say anything.
> walt
> NX140DL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
> not
> > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase
the
> > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
> intended
> > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
pulley
> > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
> rather
> > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
problem
> > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> > pulleys?
> >
> > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard
of
> a
> > problem with using the light stuff?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Kevin Holcomb
> > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> >
> >
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
well..... it's official!
After a long summer break, I'm back to working on the GN-1. Out here in
Arizona it just ain't fun to work in the shop when it's 115 degrees outside.
I quit working on the project back in June.
Today it was 75 degrees and just beautiful outside. I rolled out the fuse,
blew it off and sat for about 30 minutes just trying to remember where I
left off and what I was gonna do next.
I figured it all out and commenced to cutting a piece of 1/4" Okume (sp?)
plywood for the very front turtledeck former/seatback.
Knew it had to be 8" tall and 24" wide but the curve was freehanded til it
looked about right. Gotta love the 'Camper huh?!
Mixed up a batch of T-88, glued and clamped it in place and logged my first
entry since June. Building season has begun!
DJ Vegh
www.raptoronline.com
Mesa, AZ
N74DV
This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
I think Chris is right (again - I haven't found him wrong, yet. I'm glad
the Fisherman didn't succeed in driving him from this list). When I was
making my eyebrows, I looked at a J-3 on our field and noticed that the
right front cylinder's top middle nut was loose (by sheer coincidence this
is the nut that was holding down the eyebrow bracket). I notified the owner
and he tightened it up, but it didn't occur to me that the aluminum bracket
was to blame.
I made my brackets out of .063" 2024-T3, and one of them is trapped between
the cylinder base nuts and the PAL nuts, but on the other side there wasn't
enough stud sticking out to even put PALnuts on, much less a bracket under
them. I guess I'll need to go back and make the brackets out of 4130, just
to be safe.
Thanks Chris,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian
Bobka
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
Mike,
Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a
matter of time...
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows
directly
to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum
or 4130.
Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting,
not the cyl hold-down
bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the
nut and it's lots easier
just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting.
Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero
Junkworks and
there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | I gotta tell you about this..... |
Well, I've tried to keep quiet about my every little building joy and triumph.
Half the messages on this list would be mine if I sent one every time I got excited
about a recent Pietenpol building triumph.....
Well, this one I HAVE to share.
I've NEVER done any metal working before this project. Well tonite I decided to
get started on the 9 tail surface hinges. I thought I would try and build them
myself, hopefully like the ones I saw on Bill Rewey's rudder/elevators this
summer at Brodhead.
I still have some corners to round off and holes to make a little more "round" (ream them out a little) but....well, anyway, pictures are at the end of the build pics at http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i67b0de21b30911cdc4c1
Wow, I think I CAN do this!
I bent some 1/2" wide 16ga and will have another slightly smaller similar shape
"inside" the one in the pics. With rounded corners on both, of course. The
pin is a 3/16 dia - 2 1/32 grip (2C65) and the screws are 10-32 washer head screws
(10R22).
Of course I'll check specs and talk to my tech counselor to make sure it's all
the way it should be (and I WON'T use a nail for a cotter pin!) but for now....I
like the way it looks. And if anyone sees any glaring problems with this setup,
please don't hesitate to let me know.
Anyway, this is fun!
Jim Markle
Plano, TX
NX25JM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | GOOD link to the hinges...... |
OK, for some reason the "=" sign gets dropped from the string so the link
won't work. There should be an = sign between the "i" and the "6"
Apparently the matronics server clears that out.
By the way, there are a LOT of pics there so you'll need to scroll down to the
bottom to see the hinges.
And yes, the plans call out thicker material and smaller screws. I'm thinking
that with the extra cross sectional area of 4 tabs on each rather than the
plan's 3 tabs that might make up the difference. Feels strong as heck.
Anyway, a work in progress! Who knows how it will end up looking! :-)
Jim Markle
Plano, TX
http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b30911cdc4c1
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John_Duprey(at)vmed.org |
Subject: | Re: GOOD link to the hinges...... |
10/29/2002 10:17:42 AM
Jim: I got the link to work and looked at 110 photos of your project, but
saw no hinges. ?????????
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
Thanks jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
I think Chris is right (again - I haven't found him wrong, yet. I'm glad
the Fisherman didn't succeed in driving him from this list). When I was
making my eyebrows, I looked at a J-3 on our field and noticed that the
right front cylinder's top middle nut was loose (by sheer coincidence this
is the nut that was holding down the eyebrow bracket). I notified the owner
and he tightened it up, but it didn't occur to me that the aluminum bracket
was to blame.
I made my brackets out of .063" 2024-T3, and one of them is trapped between
the cylinder base nuts and the PAL nuts, but on the other side there wasn't
enough stud sticking out to even put PALnuts on, much less a bracket under
them. I guess I'll need to go back and make the brackets out of 4130, just
to be safe.
Thanks Chris,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian
Bobka
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
Mike,
Hard aluminuam ain't hard enough, please. Use the 4130/4140. It is only a
matter of time...
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows
directly
to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum
or 4130.
Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting,
not the cyl hold-down
bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the
nut and it's lots easier
just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting.
Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero
Junkworks and
there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
OK, first please except my apology for taking up all this bandwidth. I feel
like such a dummy. Maybe if I didn't work with compters every day I wouldn't
be able to get myself in SO much trouble!
THIS link should work and show ALL the pictures, in particular the ones of the
hinges (on the last page).
Again, sorry.....
"http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de"
*********
VIEW PICTURES
Jim Markle is sharing pictures with you
using Shutterfly, the leading online photo service.
To view Jim Markle's pictures at Shutterfly,
simply go to:
http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de
(If you can't click on this link, try copying and pasting it
into your web browser.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John_Duprey(at)vmed.org |
10/29/2002 11:40:02 AM
Jim: No apology needed. I enjoyed looking at all the pix. You are doing a
beautifull job on your Piet. Are you certian that you have never worked
with metal before? Those hinges look like a pro job to me.
John Duprey
(at)matronics.com on 10/29/2002 10:39:34 AM
Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hinge pics
OK, first please except my apology for taking up all this bandwidth. I
feel
like such a dummy. Maybe if I didn't work with compters every day I
wouldn't
be able to get myself in SO much trouble!
THIS link should work and show ALL the pictures, in particular the ones of
the
hinges (on the last page).
Again, sorry.....
"http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de"
*********
VIEW PICTURES
Jim Markle is sharing pictures with you
using Shutterfly, the leading online photo service.
To view Jim Markle's pictures at Shutterfly,
simply go to:
http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b309f39345de
(If you can't click on this link, try copying and pasting it
into your web browser.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
Subject: | 3/32 Control Cables |
Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I
can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that
can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone
have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
Gene Hubbard
San Diego
-----Original Message-----
From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
Kevin,
One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
mind that all people have different opinions)
Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to
be 1/8".
Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
DAR didn't say anything.
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
not
> acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase the
> pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
intended
> for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger pulley
> and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
rather
> not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a problem
> (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> pulleys?
>
> Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard of
a
> problem with using the light stuff?
>
> Best Regards,
> Kevin Holcomb
> http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | 3/32 Control Cables |
Gene, over a year ago I was planning to go 1/8" on all of the controls. I
think I might have gotten that from Bingelis?? But lots of guys on the list
said it was too heavy and over kill so I bought 3/32"
wire for everything except the stick to bellcrank cables. I also did my
tailwires in 1/16" as per the consenus of some of the more experienced guys
on the list. So here we go. Ed
>From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:45:45 -0800
>
>
>
>Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I
>can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that
>can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone
>have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
>
>Gene Hubbard
>San Diego
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
>
>Kevin,
>One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
>mind that all people have different opinions)
>Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed to
>be 1/8".
>Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
>The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
>DAR didn't say anything.
>walt
>NX140DL
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
>not
> > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase
>the
> > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
>intended
> > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
>pulley
> > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
>rather
> > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
>problem
> > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> > pulleys?
> >
> > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard
>of
>a
> > problem with using the light stuff?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Kevin Holcomb
> > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> >
> >
>
>
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Bingelis on eyebrows |
Mike,
The key is that you used the pal nuts to hold on your angles not the
cylinder hold downs. I am trying to stress with these guys that anything
that goes UNDER the cylinder hold downs is hard steel.
Your ship is finewith the inboard angles under the pal nuts.
Dead soft is the way to go. It will age harden and work harden to a higher
T so that when you are 70 and the ship is 40, they will begin to take on the
charismatic cracks we love to look at on the cubs.
chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis on eyebrows
Chris Bobka is right on about not securing your dead-soft alum. eyebrows
directly
to the engine unless you make transition fittings from either harder alum
or 4130.
Also I used the pal nuts on the cyl base to secure my alum angle fitting,
not the cyl hold-down
bolts. ( you can't get a good torque reading with the fitting under the
nut and it's lots easier
just removing the pal nut case you ever have to remove that angle fitting.
Otherwise, my dead soft alum baffles cost me tons less $$$ than Wag Aero
Junkworks and
there are zero cracks in them after almost 300 hours of service time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
Gene,
Think it the idea that, beside the regulation that covers it, if you put in
the smaller and the inspector fails it, you have to change it all. and you
just can't rethread the thicker stuff. It needs a different pully width.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I
> can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that
> can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone
> have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
>
> Gene Hubbard
> San Diego
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
>
> Kevin,
> One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
> mind that all people have different opinions)
> Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed
to
> be 1/8".
> Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
> DAR didn't say anything.
> walt
> NX140DL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
> not
> > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase
the
> > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
> intended
> > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
pulley
> > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
> rather
> > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
problem
> > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> > pulleys?
> >
> > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard
of
> a
> > problem with using the light stuff?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Kevin Holcomb
> > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | 3/32 Control Cables |
But guys, we are not builing to FAR 43 and AC 43 is "advisory". "This is an
"experimental". You could use rope if you want to. My Certified prewar
Aeronca 50-c Chief uses 3/32" throughout. There is no 1/8" anywhere.
If we did not have the access that we do to inspect routinely all the cable
lengths (like every time we fly), it would present a good case for the 1/8".
I would use the 3/32". It was ok for aircraft certified under Aeronautics
Bulletin 7 in 1931 and is appropriate for ships designed in that period.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
Gene,
Think it the idea that, beside the regulation that covers it, if you put in
the smaller and the inspector fails it, you have to change it all. and you
just can't rethread the thicker stuff. It needs a different pully width.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I
> can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that
> can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone
> have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
>
> Gene Hubbard
> San Diego
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
>
> Kevin,
> One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
> mind that all people have different opinions)
> Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed
to
> be 1/8".
> Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
> DAR didn't say anything.
> walt
> NX140DL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
> not
> > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase
the
> > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
> intended
> > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
pulley
> > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
> rather
> > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
problem
> > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> > pulleys?
> >
> > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard
of
> a
> > problem with using the light stuff?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Kevin Holcomb
> > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Subject: | steel under cyl hold down---for sure |
Group--What Chris says IS correct on not to put any fittings fabricated
from aluminum UNDER your cyl. hold down nuts--use steel for sure. Under
the pal nuts it's ok to use aluminum as I did. From what I understand
pal nuts are no longer required ( I used them because they came in my
rebuild kit and I like the idea of what they were intended to do--keep the
nut from loosening.) and some builders will find that they don't have
nuff threads left to use a pal nut anyway, so best to use steel fittings in
the cooling eyebrow installation.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll saw. Is that being used
to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how did you cut it?
Kent Hallsten
Oklahoma City
Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" (wood) Band Saw. I sure
WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a hacksaw and did the cutting by
hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this list to go to Harbor
Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting band saws is probably the
best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good but painfully SLOW
success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw (with marginal success)
with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" pneumatic cutoff saw with
really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that inside a box with the
blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table saw type of arrangement.
Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be easier than the way I'm
doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until I can afford the couple
hundred for a good band saw.
As usual, I WELCOME suggestions......
Jim Markle
Plano, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: RE: Hinge pics |
Kent,
Just today I got a bunch of stuff from Grizzly at work. The most
interesting to me is the variable speed 12" table top bandsaw. I put
it together and fired it up. It came with a 12tpi wood blade or
something like that, but I also ordered a 24tpi raker blade for
metal. I haven't tried it on metal yet - maybe Friday as the kids
have a half day of school.
I adjustable speed does get down to metal speeds. Here is a link to the thing.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G8976
>
>
>In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll saw. Is that being used
>to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how did you cut it?
>
>Kent Hallsten
>Oklahoma City
>
>
>Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" (wood) Band Saw. I sure
>WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a hacksaw and did the cutting by
>hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this list to go to Harbor
>Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting band saws is probably the
>best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good but painfully SLOW
>success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw (with marginal success)
>with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" pneumatic cutoff saw with
>really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that inside a box with the
>blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table saw type of arrangement.
>Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be easier than the way I'm
>doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until I can afford the couple
>hundred for a good band saw.
>
>As usual, I WELCOME suggestions......
--
Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not type
data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had trouble
getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the light
stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt, especially
when it will result in a lighter airplane.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler? I
> can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure that
> can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does anyone
> have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
>
> Gene Hubbard
> San Diego
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
>
> Kevin,
> One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep in
> mind that all people have different opinions)
> Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed
to
> be 1/8".
> Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and the
> DAR didn't say anything.
> walt
> NX140DL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys are
> not
> > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase
the
> > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
> intended
> > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
pulley
> > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
> rather
> > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
problem
> > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated 2"
> > pulleys?
> >
> > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved '34
> > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone heard
of
> a
> > problem with using the light stuff?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Kevin Holcomb
> > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
For what it's worth. I only have 1/8 between the cabanes and the wing struts.
All controls are the flexible 3/32 and the tail feathers are held together (
well ) with 1/16.
It's flying like a dream come true with no complaints from the test pilot.
Why pay $5 for a cookie when you can buy it for a nickle. I believe in
safety, as my age will atest, but I think some of these aero techs have
carried the subject beyond good common sense. Especially those who publish
the ASS catalog. No wonder GA is in the position it's in.
Ole Corky in La still looking for the best for GA and fighting those vultures
who sell supplies. Wish we went back to the war time OPA, Office of price
administration. The only federal bureau that ever amounted to anything.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
Another 2 cents worth:
There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable:
1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable.
2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces.
Lou Larsen
P.S. Just finished the last of the rib stitching.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not type
> data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had trouble
> getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the
light
> stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt,
especially
> when it will result in a lighter airplane.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator idler?
I
> > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure
that
> > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does
anyone
> > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
> >
> > Gene Hubbard
> > San Diego
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin,
> > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning ( keep
in
> > mind that all people have different opinions)
> > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are supposed
> to
> > be 1/8".
> > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and
the
> > DAR didn't say anything.
> > walt
> > NX140DL
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys
are
> > not
> > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could increase
> the
> > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
> > intended
> > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
> pulley
> > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
> > rather
> > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
> problem
> > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and associated
2"
> > > pulleys?
> > >
> > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved
'34
> > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone
heard
> of
> > a
> > > problem with using the light stuff?
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > Kevin Holcomb
> > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
Everyone,
My response was only my own opinion. With all the stories of all the
inspectors out there,,,,,with all due respect, put in what ever you want.
walt
NX140DL
PS. with all my 1/8" control cable, my empty weight is 595#
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> Another 2 cents worth:
>
> There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable:
>
> 1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable.
>
> 2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces.
>
> Lou Larsen
>
> P.S. Just finished the last of the rib stitching.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not
type
> > data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had
trouble
> > getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the
> light
> > stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt,
> especially
> > when it will result in a lighter airplane.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator
idler?
> I
> > > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces structure
> that
> > > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does
> anyone
> > > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
> > >
> > > Gene Hubbard
> > > San Diego
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kevin,
> > > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning (
keep
> in
> > > mind that all people have different opinions)
> > > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are
supposed
> > to
> > > be 1/8".
> > > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> > > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32" and
> the
> > > DAR didn't say anything.
> > > walt
> > > NX140DL
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter pulleys
> are
> > > not
> > > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could
increase
> > the
> > > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are not
> > > intended
> > > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
> > pulley
> > > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I would
> > > rather
> > > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
> > problem
> > > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and
associated
> 2"
> > > > pulleys?
> > > >
> > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the improved
> '34
> > > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone
> heard
> > of
> > > a
> > > > problem with using the light stuff?
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > > Kevin Holcomb
> > > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | 3/32 Control Cables |
Not only is it lighter, but a lot of that weight savings is way aft of the
CG where extra weight really hurts. I followed the plans and used 1/8"
between the stick and the bellcrank, then 3/32" for all other control
cables. Remember when looking at AC 43.13 that it is basically written for
more modern airplanes, which typically have only two cables for the
elevators, one for up and one for down. A Piet has four - two up (one on
each side) and two down, at least once you get past the bellcrank. That's
why the 1/8" cable from the stick to the bellcrank - that one up cable is
carrying all the load. Tell that to any inspector who wants you to run 1/8"
cable.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lou Larsen
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
Another 2 cents worth:
There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable:
1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable.
2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces.
Lou Larsen
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | Re: 3/32 Control Cables |
Thanks for the feedback. Every opinion is valued when it comes to making
these tough decisions. 595 lb is a heck of an accomplishment.
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
> Everyone,
> My response was only my own opinion. With all the stories of all the
> inspectors out there,,,,,with all due respect, put in what ever you want.
> walt
> NX140DL
> PS. with all my 1/8" control cable, my empty weight is 595#
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lou Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
>
>
>
> >
> > Another 2 cents worth:
> >
> > There are a couple other reasons to use 3/32 control cable:
> >
> > 1. Its a lot easier to work with 3/32 cable.
> >
> > 2. Its lighter weight; you need to watch all the extra ounces.
> >
> > Lou Larsen
> >
> > P.S. Just finished the last of the rib stitching.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > That is the way I see it. And yes, I agree the AC is an advisory not
> type
> > > data. However, I am very interested to find out if anyone has had
> trouble
> > > getting their airworthiness cert or has had a bad experience with the
> > light
> > > stuff. I am tempted to follow the plans whenever I am in doubt,
> > especially
> > > when it will result in a lighter airplane.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Don't the plans call for 3/32" on everything except the elevator
> idler?
> > I
> > > > can't imagine that there's any part of the control surfaces
structure
> > that
> > > > can stand up to the strength of 3/32" cable, let alone 1/8". Does
> > anyone
> > > > have a feeling for the rationale behind 1/8" for controls?
> > > >
> > > > Gene Hubbard
> > > > San Diego
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: walter evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
> > > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kevin,
> > > > One of the main things that my Mentor told me from the beginning (
> keep
> > in
> > > > mind that all people have different opinions)
> > > > Is that no matter what you are building, all control cables are
> supposed
> > > to
> > > > be 1/8".
> > > > Don't know if this is right or wrong, so I did all controls in 1/8".
> > > > The cross cables on the cabanes and the tail wires I did in 3/32"
and
> > the
> > > > DAR didn't say anything.
> > > > walt
> > > > NX140DL
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/32 Control Cables
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have seen several sources that indicate that 2.0 diameter
pulleys
> > are
> > > > not
> > > > > acceptable. When I looked into it, I found that yes, I could
> increase
> > > the
> > > > > pulley without too much trouble, however the larger pulleys are
not
> > > > intended
> > > > > for use with anything as small as 3/32 cable. Throw in the larger
> > > pulley
> > > > > and the larger cable and it starts sounding like weight that I
would
> > > > rather
> > > > > not add. Here is the question, has anyone had, or even heard of a
> > > problem
> > > > > (real or merely with an inspector) with the 3/32 cable and
> associated
> > 2"
> > > > > pulleys?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, after careful study of the plans, I noticed that the
improved
> > '34
> > > > > plans use 1/8 sides while the earlier plans use 3/32. Has anyone
> > heard
> > > of
> > > > a
> > > > > problem with using the light stuff?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > Kevin Holcomb
> > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Subject: | Re: RE: Hinge pics |
Jim,
I have a normal 12" Sears wood band saw. I couldn't figure out how to slow
it down and didn't have a metal cutting blade. I was impatient and wanted
to get started. I tried the hacksaw for about 5 seconds. Tried a scroll
saw but it jumped around too much. Finally, I decided to cut some 4130 flat
stock on my wood band saw. Figured that I would ruin the blade in about 2
or 3 cuts. But, oh well!! At least I would get something done that
weekend. It was amazing how easy the blade cut through that metal. Just
push until it starts to glow red and then keep it moving at a speed that
keeps the red glow. It cuts almost like butter. I cut ALL my fittings.
That was six months ago and I am still using that blade to cut metal and
wood.
One point I should make is that all the cuts were pretty much straight. I
couldn't cut curves. I shaped with a grinder after rough cutting with the
band saw.
It is a 3/8" blade with about 6 or 7 tpi.
Hope this helps someone.
Ted Brousseau
Naples, FL
PS I was going through some early EAA magazines and saw an article by an old
fellow (probably younger than me now, but old to me then...). He called
this cutting "friction cutting".
----- Original Message -----
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Hinge pics
>
>
> In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll saw. Is that being
used
> to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how did you cut it?
>
> Kent Hallsten
> Oklahoma City
>
>
> Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10" (wood) Band Saw. I sure
> WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a hacksaw and did the cutting
by
> hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this list to go to Harbor
> Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting band saws is probably the
> best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good but painfully SLOW
> success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw (with marginal success)
> with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3" pneumatic cutoff saw with
> really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that inside a box with the
> blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table saw type of
arrangement.
> Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be easier than the way
I'm
> doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until I can afford the couple
> hundred for a good band saw.
>
> As usual, I WELCOME suggestions......
>
> Jim Markle
> Plano, TX
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Subject: | Re: RE: Hinge pics |
with the three wheel bandsaw you can only use the
cheap soft bands with it, because the better quality
bands will not flex around the small third wheel
without breaking. I sell bands to cabinet shops and
the home hobbiests with three wheel bandsaws I will
not supply to, because they just bring them back
broken right away. and the cheap soft bands just don't
stay sharp very long. you will get the job done, but
be prepared to buy alot of bands.
Del
--- The Huizenga's <kirkh@unique-software.com> wrote:
> Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
>
> Kent,
>
> Just today I got a bunch of stuff from Grizzly at
> work. The most
> interesting to me is the variable speed 12" table
> top bandsaw. I put
> it together and fired it up. It came with a 12tpi
> wood blade or
> something like that, but I also ordered a 24tpi
> raker blade for
> metal. I haven't tried it on metal yet - maybe
> Friday as the kids
> have a half day of school.
>
> I adjustable speed does get down to metal speeds.
> Here is a link to the thing.
>
>
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G8976
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll
> saw. Is that being used
> >to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how
> did you cut it?
> >
> >Kent Hallsten
> >Oklahoma City
> >
> >
> >Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10"
> (wood) Band Saw. I sure
> >WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a
> hacksaw and did the cutting by
> >hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this
> list to go to Harbor
> >Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting
> band saws is probably the
> >best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good
> but painfully SLOW
> >success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw
> (with marginal success)
> >with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3"
> pneumatic cutoff saw with
> >really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that
> inside a box with the
> >blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table
> saw type of arrangement.
> >Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be
> easier than the way I'm
> >doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until
> I can afford the couple
> >hundred for a good band saw.
> >
> >As usual, I WELCOME suggestions......
>
> --
> Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and
> Corvair Project
>
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: RE: Hinge pics |
My dad made a 3 wheel band saw before WW2. We found that we had to use the
thinnest blades and then you had to tension them very tight to keep them
from breaking.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Hinge pics
>
> with the three wheel bandsaw you can only use the
> cheap soft bands with it, because the better quality
> bands will not flex around the small third wheel
> without breaking. I sell bands to cabinet shops and
> the home hobbiests with three wheel bandsaws I will
> not supply to, because they just bring them back
> broken right away. and the cheap soft bands just don't
> stay sharp very long. you will get the job done, but
> be prepared to buy alot of bands.
> Del
> --- The Huizenga's <kirkh@unique-software.com> wrote:
> > Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
> >
> > Kent,
> >
> > Just today I got a bunch of stuff from Grizzly at
> > work. The most
> > interesting to me is the variable speed 12" table
> > top bandsaw. I put
> > it together and fired it up. It came with a 12tpi
> > wood blade or
> > something like that, but I also ordered a 24tpi
> > raker blade for
> > metal. I haven't tried it on metal yet - maybe
> > Friday as the kids
> > have a half day of school.
> >
> > I adjustable speed does get down to metal speeds.
> > Here is a link to the thing.
> >
> >
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G8976
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >In your pictures I see a small band saw, or scroll
> > saw. Is that being used
> > >to cut metal? if so how did it work, if not how
> > did you cut it?
> > >
> > >Kent Hallsten
> > >Oklahoma City
> > >
> > >
> > >Interesting question. That saw is a standard 10"
> > (wood) Band Saw. I sure
> > >WISH it was what I used. Actually, I used a
> > hacksaw and did the cutting by
> > >hand. I figure the suggestion I've seen on this
> > list to go to Harbor
> > >Freight and buy one of those $179 metal cutting
> > band saws is probably the
> > >best way to go. I've tried the hack saw (with good
> > but painfully SLOW
> > >success) and my variable speed reciprocating saw
> > (with marginal success)
> > >with a metal cutting blade. I picked up a 3"
> > pneumatic cutoff saw with
> > >really thin disks. I'm going to try mounting that
> > inside a box with the
> > >blade sticking up through a slot. Sort of a table
> > saw type of arrangement.
> > >Haven't a clue if that will work but sure should be
> > easier than the way I'm
> > >doing it. If I have to I'll do them by hand until
> > I can afford the couple
> > >hundred for a good band saw.
> > >
> > >As usual, I WELCOME suggestions......
> >
> > --
> > Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and
> > Corvair Project
> >
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
> >
> >
> >
> > Forum -
> > Contributions of
> > any other form
> >
> > latest messages.
> > other List members.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/search
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Del-New Richmond, Wi
> "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
>
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Hi Jim, those are flybaby hinges. That's what
I want to use too. I've looked at a few
flybaby tails and most were not perfectly
lined up. As you moved the elevater up and
down you could see them flex. I didn't like
that but realized that the worst of them was
pretty old and the flexing hadn't caused any
problems over all those years. It appears
that the metal between the bolt and hinge
hole is long enough to minimize fatigue.
Another approach is Chris Heinz hinge
setup on the Zodiac. Go to: www.zenithair.com
and in the "Design College" go down to the
bottom to the Zodiac hingeless aileron. This
probably has some bearing on the fatigue
situation noted above.
Just remember, great minds think alike,
but---
fools seldom differ. Is that us? hahaha.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hinge pics
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Cessna's & Assholes (control cables) |
Just remember that everyone has one, just like opinions.
A joke I once heard, but very true.
I owned a 1938 Aeronca, best I can remember it had 1/8 cables.
But I have flow ultralights with 1/16 cables, that fly about as fast as a
Pietenpol.
Just remember these birds are Experimental, which means you can do just about
anything you want or trust to do.
I would tend to use 1/8 on my bird, the idea being it is better to have it
and not need it than need it and not have it.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
Hi Group:
Does anyone have plans for using a tailwheel with the coil spring type tail?
Or does anyone sell plans or have plans ever been in the newsletters?
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Gdascomb(at)aol.com |
Try this for plans:
http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: <Gdascomb(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel
>
> Try this for plans:
> http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html
>
> Thank You I had her website before, but lost it when my hard drive passed
away. I e-mailed her immediately and will buy her plans. Have heard only
good things about her designs.
Dennis Engelkenjohn
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: Kent Hallsten <KHallsten(at)governair.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel
>
Hi Kent:
Good to hear from you again! I only saw Leons' tank through the back of
his truck window. He had already went to supper when I looked in and Chuck
and I went to supper after showing his jigs and such.
When we got back, Leon had left already so I didn't get a close look. But
from what I did see, it looked really well made.
Does Leon have e-mail or a phone number so I can get his opinion of her
plans? I am ordering her plans for the tailwheel today.
A buddy of mine is an A & P and a certified welder, who has said he
would weld an aluminum tank for me, but he is not as young as he used to be
and he has his own projects to complete, so fiberglas is looking good to me.
Plus it will be a learning experience for me as I haven't done any fiberglas
work before and have been wanting to learn.
Dennis Engelkenjohn
ps... fuselage sides are now together, torque tube welded and I am about
ready to put the seats in and the instrument panels on and the turtle deck
stringers. Ribs are done and so are the tail surfaces, except for rounding
and touch up.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | Now about those hinges!! :-) |
Wow, thanks for all the feedback on my hinge project! I just love learning
new skills, especially when I'm helped along the way with such great input!
I actually figured out a way to do an extremely straight cut with my recip
saw. But I will go ahead and order a variable speed bandsaw similar to the
one Kirk Huizenga noted. (Harbor Freight $99) I'll assume that Kirk's tryout
of the saw (today?) will be successful!
The holes I drilled in the hinges were horrible! So I picked up some reamers
and WOW, that's the ticket! Yes, this is probably old news to most of you,
but I just figured it out and what a job those things do! If I'm not careful
I just might turn into a real machinist! Nah....
Thanks again for ALL the input! Now back to assembling rudder parts.....
Jim in Plano, TX
NX25JM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Hello Kent and Dennis: I think all of us at one point got our wires
crossed at Benton and missed some one. You should have opened the back
of my truck and hada look. It would have been fine with me. Last night I
wrote a lengthy note on the price plans. The post still hasn't shown up
on the sight.-? It's out in cyber space somewhere. But to make it short,
I didn't use the Price center section because I already had my c-section
spars cut for the Pietenpol center section before I bought Price's
plans. I made her (his at the time) fuel tank and like it fine. I had to
do things inside the tank bay a little different because of the
difference in tank style. At the time I thought the tank was a LOT of
hard work, but looking back it only took around 3 hours to lay up the 2
halves. (with my brother helping me). The molds were simple with lumber
yard materiel. For simplicity I went with a leaf spring tail wheel.
(Mike Cuy drawings) No welding. I like her piano hinge ailerons and
will be using them. You need to close that gap any way. If I had it to
do over I wouldn't put the front door in. Its nice and practical, but
It's added weight. Price told me his Piet. came at around 730 lbs.
That's kind of heavy, There is more I could tell you about the fuel
tank. If you build it send another note. The Price plans are all
excellent but "buisy". I think if you use all of them you will be on the
heavy side just as K. Prise's plane is. Glad to see you guys are moving
along in your construction. If you don't have the Bengiles books, by
all means get them. Also get a LARGE box for your do-overs. Leon
S.--doing over my tail wire brackets.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Now about those hinges!! :-) |
I did try the saw today and it work fine. Slow, but fine. I cut
through 6" of .09 4130 in 4 minutes or so. Definitely nicer than a
hacksaw.
I used the 24tpi raker band and didn't have a precise speed set, just
slow. I did put a little cutting and tapping fluid on the sheet metal
before and the metal never got more than barely warm.
One nice thing is that I have a CNC mill at school also and can use
that to cut out fittings precisely - so the saw is just to cut the
rough stock to size so it can be milled in the CNC machince.
I did a few pieces for my brother-in-law, who is building a 4-place
Vision. They turned out nicely and was a lot of fun.
I hope things work out well with your new saw Jim
Kirk
>
>Wow, thanks for all the feedback on my hinge project! I just love learning
>new skills, especially when I'm helped along the way with such great input!
>
>I actually figured out a way to do an extremely straight cut with my recip
>saw. But I will go ahead and order a variable speed bandsaw similar to the
>one Kirk Huizenga noted. (Harbor Freight $99) I'll assume that Kirk's tryout
>of the saw (today?) will be successful!
>
>The holes I drilled in the hinges were horrible! So I picked up some reamers
>and WOW, that's the ticket! Yes, this is probably old news to most of you,
>but I just figured it out and what a job those things do! If I'm not careful
>I just might turn into a real machinist! Nah....
>
>Thanks again for ALL the input! Now back to assembling rudder parts.....
>
>Jim in Plano, TX
>NX25JM
--
Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Now about those hinges!! :-) |
From: | catdesigns(at)juno.com |
Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did you get them?
Chris
Sacramento, CA
---------- writes:
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Now about those hinges!! :-)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:37:59 -0500
Wow, thanks for all the feedback on my hinge project! I just love learning
new skills, especially when I'm helped along the way with such great input!
I actually figured out a way to do an extremely straight cut with my recip
saw. But I will go ahead and order a variable speed bandsaw similar to the
one Kirk Huizenga noted. (Harbor Freight $99) I'll assume that Kirk's tryout
of the saw (today?) will be successful!
The holes I drilled in the hinges were horrible! So I picked up some reamers
and WOW, that's the ticket! Yes, this is probably old news to most of you,
but I just figured it out and what a job those things do! If I'm not careful
I just might turn into a real machinist! Nah....
Thanks again for ALL the input! Now back to assembling rudder parts.....
Jim in Plano, TX
NX25JM
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Markle"<jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
Subject: | Source for reamers.... |
I got them from Grainger. Look at the bottom of the "printable version" of
page 1548 at www.grainger.com.
Jim
Plano, TX
Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did you get them?
Chris
Sacramento, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Fishnet"
Subject: | whats the story on insurance? |
I don't know much about insurance on a homebuilt. Is it mandetory? Do all of
you have it? If so what is the company? Liability only? Please fill me in,
cause I don't think this has been discussed before.
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Hey Group
I just got back from a business trip to Dallas. There was a A-75 listed in the
Dallas Morning News newspaper yesterday. It is in the aviation column and lists
0 smoh with mags and carb. The asking price was $3800. Unfortunatly I lost
track of the phone number.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Subject: | 2002 List Fund Raiser - Please Support Your Lists... |
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> |
Subject: | Re: whats the story on insurance? |
Walt,
Good question. You have to have insurance if the airport where you tie it
down requires it.
Unless you are a pauper you should at least have liability insurance to
defend you and pay any claims caused by your "negligence". Your idea of
negligence and a jury's might differ.
Hull insurance is optional. But, it is relatively cheap - compared to the
blood sweat and tears you have invested in your plane.
I have my insurance through AUA (R.C. McGee) 800-727-3823. They insure our
kinds of planes. If you are EAA you get a discount. And they EXPECT you to
land on grass and non public landing fields. They have been good to me (and
I get a nice T shirt each year at Sun n Fun).
Hope this helps.
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: whats the story on insurance?
>
> I don't know much about insurance on a homebuilt. Is it mandetory? Do
all of you have it? If so what is the company? Liability only? Please
fill me in, cause I don't think this has been discussed before.
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Source for reamers.... |
Here's a home machinist tip that might help. By purchasing several sizes of
drill rod, you can make a set of
reamers that is inexpensive and work quite well. Cut your drill rod ( for
example, quarter inch) four to six inches
long. Cut a bevel on one end so one third of the end remains. Make the bevel
two to two and a half times the
diameter long. Square the other end for a wrench. Hone the cutting edges
sharp and clean. They might not be as
fancy as a fluted reamer but you'll be surprised how well they work.
Remember, if you heat the metal too much
while grinding the bevel, ( and you probably will ) heat treat the cutting
end to reharden.
To harden, ( ask when you buy the rod if it is water or oil hardened) heat
the cutting end bright red, then quench.
It will be too brittle if left fully hardened so polish with an emery cloth,
reheat to a straw color, then quench again.
Hope this helps.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Source for reamers....
Markle"
>
>
> I got them from Grainger. Look at the bottom of the "printable version"
of
> page 1548 at www.grainger.com.
>
> Jim
> Plano, TX
>
>
> Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did you get them?
>
> Chris
> Sacramento, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
Subject: | Re: Source for reamers.... |
another method that I use is to take a regular drill
bit, change the cutting edge to a neg angle ( can be
done easily by hand on the edge of a grinding wheel
with a sharp corner) and while spinning the drill bit
run a long strip of sandpaper held on each end, up and
down the OD of the bit briefly or more if you want
reduce the OD by a couple of thousands(don't tighten
the paper too tight on the drill, making it grab).
makes a tighter and rounder hole. of course drill it
close with another drill bit and then run this one
thru last
Del
--- Carl Loar wrote:
>
>
> Here's a home machinist tip that might help. By
> purchasing several sizes of
> drill rod, you can make a set of
> reamers that is inexpensive and work quite well.
> Cut your drill rod ( for
> example, quarter inch) four to six inches
> long. Cut a bevel on one end so one third of the end
> remains. Make the bevel
> two to two and a half times the
> diameter long. Square the other end for a wrench.
> Hone the cutting edges
> sharp and clean. They might not be as
> fancy as a fluted reamer but you'll be surprised how
> well they work.
> Remember, if you heat the metal too much
> while grinding the bevel, ( and you probably will )
> heat treat the cutting
> end to reharden.
> To harden, ( ask when you buy the rod if it is water
> or oil hardened) heat
> the cutting end bright red, then quench.
> It will be too brittle if left fully hardened so
> polish with an emery cloth,
> reheat to a straw color, then quench again.
> Hope this helps.
> Carl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
> To: "Pietenpol List"
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Source for reamers....
>
>
> Markle"
> >
> >
> > I got them from Grainger. Look at the bottom of
> the "printable version"
> of
> > page 1548 at www.grainger.com.
> >
> > Jim
> > Plano, TX
> >
> >
> > Jim, What kind of reamer did you buy and where did
> you get them?
> >
> > Chris
> > Sacramento, CA
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
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>
>
>
=====
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
Hi Everyone:
I found the neatest tool at Harbor Freight this week, at my local store in
St.Louis, MO. Greatest thing since sliced bread!
While nosing around at Harbor Freight this week, I looked under the table
where they display their vises and found something called a "vise brake". It has
magnetic pads that hold it to the jaws of a vise and has an anvil on one vise
jaw and a V block on the other jaw. You put the piece of metal to be bent between
them and line up the mark with the anvil and just turn the vise handle
and the vise makes a neat 90 degree bend (or less) in your brackets! No hammering.
This high dollar complicated piece of machinery costs $10 for a 4" vise, up
to $ 20 for an 8" bender. I was impressed with the bends to say the least. You
could easily make your own, but for $ 10 it is far less expensive to just buy
one.
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> |
Hi Everyone:
I am trying to e-mail Leon Stefan but the messages to his address keep bouncing.
If you get this message, Leon, would you e-mail me with a phone number?
Dennis Engelkenjohn
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
Subject: | Re: stuff seen at Benton |
Leon,
Was that your Model "A" prop adapter that was being used as a piet plans
paper weight?? (I didn't think to ask while everyone was hanging around! ;-)
Was it from the " golden nuggets" in the newsletter? Did you use the steel
called out or ?? (cold rolled steel?)
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
Are there very many builders using the Model A?
I am planing on using an A engine myself.
Can someone give me some insight on known pro's & con's.
Dan
Ardmore, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
Here's a new twist on an old idea from an RAA
member;
bending small tubes to extremely tight radius'
as in fuel cap vents etc.
Pinch off one end in a vise with the open end
pointing upwards. Heat the pipe with a torch.
fill pipe with solder, pinch off top end.
Bend pipe as needed.
cut off both ends and heat, melting out solder.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Subject: | Prop hub - Model A pros & cons |
Hi Mike: Yah that was my hub adaptor. I bought it from Dick Weeden at
Brodhead back in July 01. I don't know what steel it is. It has the
Cont. bolt patterned. Dan, from Ardmore Ok.- The pros are obvious
just looking at a Piet with the A. On the con side, a Piet with the A is
really underpowered. The thing I don't truly understand is why some guys
can fly the heck out of the Model A with high reliability, While others
have nothing but trouble. I'm using the Model A, but recently bought a
run out A-65 Cont. just in case. Kind of like adding a belt to
supplement the suspenders on my Levis. Leon S. Hutchinson Ks.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Subject: | New List Digest Feature!! [Please Read] |
Dear Listers,
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Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
Since the list is exceptionally quiet and I asked this question of a
friend and didn't get an answer I'll throw it out to the list. My 3 covering
manuals and 43-13 and Bingelis all say fabric needs to be "overlapped" 2"
on leading edges and 1" everywhere else. Nowhere do they say anything about
glueing it down to the wood where there is no "overlap" like at the forward
end of the turtle deck, the front end of the fuselage, the area around my
bellcrank access hatch etc. My manuals avoid this like it never happens. Is
there a specified width of glue area that the end of a piece of fabric must
be cemented down to so that the shrinking doesn't pull it loose. I'm not
covering yet but while I'm doing the wood work is a good time to know how
wide an area I'll need later on. Seems I've seen 2" somewhere but I can't
find it now. Thanks Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Craigo" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> |
Subject: | Re: fabric question |
Ed -
It is generally accepted (and is in my older Polyfiber
manual) that you need at least 1" glued down to the
base material in those areas. If you want a neater
job, cover the whole of the base material at the front
of the turtle deck, and the whole width of the former
material elsewhere (the firewall metal will cover all
of the front). The fabric to fabric joins also need to
be 1", over structure, and stringers do not count as
structure. Fortunately in the Piet, there are no
stringers as such, unless you count the ones in the
turtledeck, but you wouldn't want an overlap there
anyway.
On small fuselages such as the Piet, I've covered the
bottom with one piece, then wrapped fabric completely
from the bottom longeron on one side to the other, over
the top.
However you do it, the modern fabrics are so nice that
it will come out as a terrific job, and you will be
proud of it.
Craig
Lake Worth, FL
Bakeng Duce NX96CW
PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: fabric question |
Ed,
I can only answer on how it pertains to Poly Fiber, but here goes.
On an overlap, on say the trailing edge, only glue the overlap itself to the
frame. The same with the leading edge. Then when one side is done, tighten
the fabric to only about 225/250 to get all the wrinkles out of the large
side so the other overlap has a smooth area to glue to.
The turtledeck doesn't need an overlap, just secure with glue, the fwd about
1", and after tightening the fabric, by putting on the poly brush, this
soaks thru and completes the bond in the large area.
Very Important!!!!! any large area of plywood like leading edge or
turtledeck MUST be coated with at least 2 coats of poly brush before fabric
is put on. If not you can never fill the weave and You'll be plagued with
air bubbles later.
Also, I could never get used to the process of putting raw glue to the wood
and laying fabric into it. I used the method used in Super Flyte process
where two coats of glue are put where the overlaps will be, then after the
fabric is layed on exactly where you want it, and held with clothes pins or
clamps, You "strike thru" with MEK ( with a small amount of glue mixed in)
and with some light rubbing , the glue reactivates and oozes thru the
fabric. Lot more pleasant way to do it.
Just remember that the overlaps on the trailing edge don't have to go over
and under. The lower can wrap to the top with a one inch glued portion
traveling 1" fwd on the trailing edge, and the top piece just has to go to
the trailing edge and not under.
rule of thumb would to not glue anything on the finished surface that will
be tightened later, so it can move around during tightening
walt
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric question
>
>
> Since the list is exceptionally quiet and I asked this question of a
> friend and didn't get an answer I'll throw it out to the list. My 3
covering
> manuals and 43-13 and Bingelis all say fabric needs to be "overlapped" 2"
> on leading edges and 1" everywhere else. Nowhere do they say anything
about
> glueing it down to the wood where there is no "overlap" like at the
forward
> end of the turtle deck, the front end of the fuselage, the area around my
> bellcrank access hatch etc. My manuals avoid this like it never happens.
Is
> there a specified width of glue area that the end of a piece of fabric
must
> be cemented down to so that the shrinking doesn't pull it loose. I'm not
> covering yet but while I'm doing the wood work is a good time to know how
> wide an area I'll need later on. Seems I've seen 2" somewhere but I can't
> find it now. Thanks Ed
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
Subject: | Re: fabric question |
Thanks Craig and Walt for the great replies on the fabric question. I
guess I'm okay because I put 2" minmum of plywood in those areas....Then
I started to wonder about it. Walt , are you in the air yet??
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: fabric question |
Ed,
Technically I was. Was doing Faster and faster taxis when at 40mph, and
half throttle, I was flying. Once over the shock, went and did it 2 more
times on purpose. After about 12 times, your head gets muddy, and it's
time to quit.
If the nice weather comes back, I'll be there.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabric question
>
> Thanks Craig and Walt for the great replies on the fabric question. I
> guess I'm okay because I put 2" minmum of plywood in those areas....Then
> I started to wonder about it. Walt , are you in the air yet??
> Ed
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | flyboy_120(at)webtv.net (Ed G.) |
Subject: | Re: fabric question |
Wow...Congratulations Walt....I still have trouble with the concept of
flight at 40 MPH....And at half throttle no less....Awesome. Good luck
with the rest of your flight testing. Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
Dan
I have not finished my Model B engine for my Piet. but I am a Model AA
truck and Model A car fan as well as a Piet builder. The A engine is 200
cu.in. displacement and depending on how well you do your research and
building it is capable of producing a good 50 to 75 hp. One of the neat
things about it as opposed to modern engine conversions (I'm not knocking
you corvair guys) is that it produces its power at the right rpm for a
direct drive prop.
Check around for engines with your local Model A Ford Club. They will most
likely be excited about your engine idea and know where to get parts. The
engine suffers from small ports and being a flat head, better breathing is
the single biggest power improvement you can make to an A. The B engine is
the same displacement and appearance but has a stouter crank. This allows
for drilling the crank for pressure oiling of the rods. Rods, pistons valves
and bearings can all be updated to modern specs. Creative weight saving
methods, one of which is getting rid of the heavy splash oiling system pan
and using a Dan Price or Brumfield aluminum head you can actually get close
to air-cooled engine weight. But if not, the wing further forward on an A
Piet looks better to me. The engine is only as good as the sum of its parts
so if you choose it, do it right! In Bernard Pietenpols day A and B engines
were fresh and plentiful. Not so now but we can upgrade them with
technology.
Best of Luck
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A
Are there very many builders using the Model A?
I am planing on using an A engine myself.
Can someone give me some insight on known pro's & con's.
Dan
Ardmore, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Hey All
I've got the one piece wing mounted on the fuselage and am working on attaching
the flying struts. Will the length of the flying wires change drasticly as I
jocky the wing for balancing? I am planning on using cable clamps temporarily
until I figure it out a little closer.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
John wrote:
>The A engine is 200 cu.in. displacement and depending on how well you
>do your research and building it is capable of producing a good 50 to
>75 hp. One of the neat things about it as opposed to modern engine
>conversions (I'm not knocking you corvair guys) is that it produces
>its power at the right rpm for a direct drive prop.
To me, the Ford-powered Piet is the quintessential example of the marque,
and has to be the most attractive and appealing setup of all. Absolutely
beautiful, even with the wackiness of having a radiator smack-dab in front
of you. Ask most any homebuilder to picture a Pietenpol in his/her mind and
99% will instantly visualize something like Frank Pavliga's "Sky Gypsy". In
case you haven't already found this site-
http://users.aol.com/bpanews/ford.html check it out; there's lots of info on
the Ford engine, both technical and general. Oh, and check out the motto at
the bottom of the page: "Real FBOs Carry Prestone" ;o)
That said, I will add that even a "basic" air-cooled 164 cu. in. Corvair
conversion develops at least 50% more power than the mighty A, eliminates
the fussiness of water cooling, probably costs less, and (I'm not knocking
you A guys) develops its power at the right RPM for a direct drive prop!
Chevies rule ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ford A engine |
Hi friends
I don't want any polemic about the engines , but if Mr
Pietenpol change his Ford A with a Corvair should be a
razon, just for coment, i don't know about the Ford A
engine and my experience with Corvair was a little (my
father had a old 1961 Corvair) that car always has
problems with the engine, i think that the problem was
to get right parts here in Mexico, but whit the engine
that i want to use i have no problems, very simple
engine to work, after to asemble it, it start very
fine, with a homemade 66*38 it can run static at 3200
whitout problems, i don't have yet the weight, but it
no use water,radiator,etc. less weight..and less parts
that would fail. about the price, check this.. engine
(junk at El Paso,TX) $100.00, pistons, rings and parts
$700.00, machine shop $120.00, cam work (at Delta)
$47.00. Cessna 150 carb $150.00. the total cost for
the basic engine whitout shippings will be about
$1,300.00, .(i am working on alternator brakets). not
bad for an engine that looks like a real airplane
engine.
Saludos desde Mexico
Javier Cruz
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: flying wires |
Dick,
Just went through this about a month ago. I had set up mine with cabane
struts straight up from longerons. Then found the weight too far aft.
Moved the wing leading edge back exactly 3", and I think it was only about
10 full turns on the turnbuckles on the wing struts. I used the long
turnbuckles, which have alot of travel. If you are too, just make the cable
going to the front fuse fitting slightly longer than the rear, just in case.
I still had to remake the tube supports going from leading edge to engine
mount over again ( about 1 3/4" longer).
Still all this was the easy part. The hard part was remaking/modifing the
cowling for strut clearance, and new holes for cross cabling and control
cable clearance.
by the way, did mine all right to the plans, A-65 with engine mount
extended about 2", and put in the nose tank (which saved me in the W&B.) I
weigh 210#
walt
NX140DL
(north NJ)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: flying wires
>
> Hey All
> I've got the one piece wing mounted on the fuselage and am working on
attaching the flying struts. Will the length of the flying wires change
drasticly as I jocky the wing for balancing? I am planning on using cable
clamps temporarily until I figure it out a little closer.
> Dick N.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | three point or wheel landing |
I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather closed in.
wanted to ask what the landing of choice is.
wheel or full stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times
like I was taking the video, and tried to figure out how you land) anyone,
fill me in. please.
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: three point or wheel landing |
Walt,
Congrats on getting it off the ground. Hope you can continue to get it back
down. My test pilot, Mr. Edwin Johnson, has about 10 hrs on 41CC and seems to
be having a ball. He laid out a testing program and is following it
accurately. I might suggest you contact him for your questions on various
landing techniques. Without his permission, I'm giving you his e mail
address. elj(at)shreve.net. He's a great guy and a damn good pilot. Good flying
Corky, still in La
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | three point or wheel landing |
Hi Walt,
For what it's worth, I've flown two Air Campers, a Pietenpol and a GN-1. I
did full stall landings in both, with no difficulty (other than trying to
land the Pietenpol about 3' off the ground). Rick Durden has a good article
on this very subject in this past Monday's AvWeb. It is at:
http://www.avweb.com/articles/lounge/tpl0054.html. If you don't subscribe
to AvWeb, you should. It's free, and has good coverage of general aviation
issues. It also occasionally has articles about building a Pietenpol by
Matt Paxton. These can be found at: http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet1/,
http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet2/, http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet3/,
and http://www.avweb.com/articles/piet4/.
Good luck,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter
evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: three point or wheel landing
I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather closed in.
wanted to ask what the landing of choice is.
wheel or full stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many
times like I was taking the video, and tried to figure out how you land)
anyone, fill me in. please.
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: three point or wheel landing |
Walt,
I am not much of an expert, but I always preferred full stall three point
landings in a tail wheel bird. #1 your going as slow as possible, #2 it has
quit flying, this helps just in case you let it get ahead of you. Ground
loops are always best at slow speed.
Just remember it starts to porpoise freeze the stick al the way back.
Have fun and be safe. Most of all just fly the bird naturally try not to
think to much about it.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: flying wires |
In a message dated 11/5/02 9:56:15 PM Central Standard Time,
horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes:
<< Will the length of the flying wires change drasticly as I jocky the wing
for balancing? >>
Dick, when I moved my wing back to get the C.G. right, I had to shorten two
of them, and make two new ones.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com> |
Just as a side note on engines....a friend and myself had started our
projects and figured on standard aircraft engines. Went to Brodhead to
specifically watch/compare the different engine choices and came back home
to revamp the fuselages for Model-A engines. We both agreed on this after
watching the different ships performing, taking rides in different
configurations and talking to the owner/operators.
Many engines will work and I think someone already hit on this point but -
I'll take a well converted Model-A over any poorly rebuilt engine of any
sort. It all comes down to whether the man doing the conversion/rebuild
knows his groceries or not. I've owned a Franklin powered Piet and had a
ball in it. I think I'd enjoy flying a Pietenpol if it were powered with an
anti-gravity fusion generator pump thing-a-ma-jig. That is, as long as it
keeps running!
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net> |
Subject: | three point or wheel landing |
Walt, everytime I see this question I smile because it is like that
age-old debate regarding approaches, as to attitude and power, and which
controls speed and which controls rate of descent. (Without inciting,
hopefully, a three-month debate on this one, when one is changed the other
generally must be changed somewhat also, so it is a combination.)
The three-point vs. wheel landings fall in a similar category, being hotly
debated (just experienced this on the rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup)
with good points given for each. In this treatise [;)] consider that
three-point and stall landings are the same thing.
As a CFI I suppose I am required to say that the FAA believes that
wheelies are good in high winds and gusting conditions since the rudder
remains effective longer and they believe there is more positive control
in such conditions. Take that or leave it for what it is.
Some airplanes, because of the wing incidence angle and other aerodynamic
peculiararities favor wheel landings (C190/C195, Beach 18's, for example).
In my opinion, sink rate and weight of plane is a large factor. My Maule,
for instance, sinks well and even though I practice wheelies, feel that
the the three-point landings are probably adequate for all circumstances.
(Incidentally, I _always_ teach wheel landings when giving tailwheel
checkouts, unless prohibited by manufacturer.)
Now for the Piet... I've done both three-point and wheelies in Corky's
plane and find both easy to do. The wheel landings are uneventful if you
simply cut power on touchdown and a very small amount of forward pressure,
like you would do on any wheel landing. (Other's techniques may vary.) I
decided to make sure of wheel landings since the Piet _is_ influenced by
wind gusts because of it's light weight, and I thought they might prove
useful in less than 'ideal circumstances'. :) To me, this plane flys
similarly to a lighter weight J-3. Most long-time Cub drivers have always
used the wheel landings to advantage, both for visibility and gusts when
landing.
I now must admit that I favor three-point landings in most planes and
would probably do more of them in the Piet. As someone already pointed
out, you _are_ going rather slowly in that landing and unless gusts are
trying to force the plane back into the air, it is easily controllable.
(One bush pilot technique is to come in like a stall landing and then
force the plane on its wheels after touchdown with forward pressure. This
might be a resource if gusts tend to effect the plane when landing.)
Walt, there certainly isn't any right or wrong answer to this and you
might be wise to practice both and decide with which you feel most
comfortable. There are a lot of different techniques used in landings
which achieve great results, so try different things to decide which you
like and, most importantly, which are the safest for you. (But stay on the
rudders! haahaa)
I certainly am still in the learning stages with Corky's plane regarding
landings and varying wind/weather conditions, so hopefully might have more
information later. Be flexible in your outlooks and be safe in your
flying.
...Edwin
>
>
> I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather
> closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full
> stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Subject: | List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... |
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Email List Administrator
_________________ What your fellow Listers are saying... _________________
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http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Subject: | Re: three point or wheel landing |
Thanks Edwin,
That was very informative.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edwin Johnson" <elj(at)shreve.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: three point or wheel landing
>
> Walt, everytime I see this question I smile because it is like that
> age-old debate regarding approaches, as to attitude and power, and which
> controls speed and which controls rate of descent. (Without inciting,
> hopefully, a three-month debate on this one, when one is changed the other
> generally must be changed somewhat also, so it is a combination.)
>
> The three-point vs. wheel landings fall in a similar category, being hotly
> debated (just experienced this on the rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup)
> with good points given for each. In this treatise [;)] consider that
> three-point and stall landings are the same thing.
>
> As a CFI I suppose I am required to say that the FAA believes that
> wheelies are good in high winds and gusting conditions since the rudder
> remains effective longer and they believe there is more positive control
> in such conditions. Take that or leave it for what it is.
>
> Some airplanes, because of the wing incidence angle and other aerodynamic
> peculiararities favor wheel landings (C190/C195, Beach 18's, for example).
>
> In my opinion, sink rate and weight of plane is a large factor. My Maule,
> for instance, sinks well and even though I practice wheelies, feel that
> the the three-point landings are probably adequate for all circumstances.
> (Incidentally, I _always_ teach wheel landings when giving tailwheel
> checkouts, unless prohibited by manufacturer.)
>
> Now for the Piet... I've done both three-point and wheelies in Corky's
> plane and find both easy to do. The wheel landings are uneventful if you
> simply cut power on touchdown and a very small amount of forward pressure,
> like you would do on any wheel landing. (Other's techniques may vary.) I
> decided to make sure of wheel landings since the Piet _is_ influenced by
> wind gusts because of it's light weight, and I thought they might prove
> useful in less than 'ideal circumstances'. :) To me, this plane flys
> similarly to a lighter weight J-3. Most long-time Cub drivers have always
> used the wheel landings to advantage, both for visibility and gusts when
> landing.
>
> I now must admit that I favor three-point landings in most planes and
> would probably do more of them in the Piet. As someone already pointed
> out, you _are_ going rather slowly in that landing and unless gusts are
> trying to force the plane back into the air, it is easily controllable.
>
> (One bush pilot technique is to come in like a stall landing and then
> force the plane on its wheels after touchdown with forward pressure. This
> might be a resource if gusts tend to effect the plane when landing.)
>
> Walt, there certainly isn't any right or wrong answer to this and you
> might be wise to practice both and decide with which you feel most
> comfortable. There are a lot of different techniques used in landings
> which achieve great results, so try different things to decide which you
> like and, most importantly, which are the safest for you. (But stay on the
> rudders! haahaa)
>
> I certainly am still in the learning stages with Corky's plane regarding
> landings and varying wind/weather conditions, so hopefully might have more
> information later. Be flexible in your outlooks and be safe in your
> flying.
>
> ...Edwin
>
> >
> >
> > I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather
> > closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full
> > stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~
> ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
> ~ ~
> ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
> ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
> ~ for there you have been, there you long ~
> ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
Here I go again, same song, same tune, same verse. The letter is self
explainatory.
U S Dept of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
The Honorable Jim McCrery ( La 7th Dist)
Member, U S House of Rep
Dear Congressman McCrery:
Thank you for your letter of Oct 2 on behalf of Mr. Claude M Corbett of
Shreveport.
Mr. Corbett requests your support and initiative to persuade the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) "to expedite the effectiveness of the Sport
Pilot category."
Your constituent indicates that he is a long time commercial and military
pilot who has never had an accident. He also indicates that he feels
perfectly capable of flying his Pietenpol Air Camper but is not lawfully
allowed to do so, because he cannot obtain an FAA airman medical certificate.
The FAA's Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) "Certification of Aircraft and
Airmen for the Operation of Light-Sport Aircraft" proposes for "sport pilots"
an alternative means of demonstrating an acceptable level of medical fitness.
This proposal also incorporates, in part, an existing FAA regulation that
requires airmen, even those not required to hold an FAA medical certificate,
to refrain from flying when they know or have reason to know that they are
not medically capable of flying. The FAA is currently analyzing more than
2,500 comments received to this February 2002 proposal and is working to
issue a final rule by late 2003
If you or your staff need further assistance, please contact Mr. David
Balloff, Assistant Administrator for Government and Industry Affairs, at
(202) 267-3277.
Sincerely, Jon L Jordan, M.D.
Federal Air Surgeon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, what do you think about that reply. Did you get that "late 2003". Bet
next year they will begin defering it until after the elections of 04.
Are we suppose to believe Dr Jordan is busting his A-- to pass something
which will DECREASE his authority. No way folks. I still smell a bunch of
beauro skunks in D C.
Sorry to bore the list with this but I really wish more of you would become
obnoxious and bug you politicos on this subject. I'm not getting anxious but
my time is about to run out.
Corky in La where politics are really going to pop for the next 30 days
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
Subject: | three point or wheel landing |
Edwin
Thank you for your input to the list. Corky, thanks for introducing Edwin
to us. You have a good test pilot. I recently moderated a discussion at the
CAPA conference on the pros and cons of flying museum aircraft. CAPA
(Canadian Aeronautical Preservation Association) an organization of Aircraft
Museums from coast to coast in Canada. We are doing a pretty good job it
seems of preserving aircraft but not as good a job of preserving the skills
required to fly them. Edwin your thoughts on the matter line up fairly
closely with those expressed at the conference.
We need more competent tail dragger pilots, so Keep Building Piets guys!
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Edwin
Johnson
Subject: Pietenpol-List: three point or wheel landing
Walt, everytime I see this question I smile because it is like that
age-old debate regarding approaches, as to attitude and power, and which
controls speed and which controls rate of descent. (Without inciting,
hopefully, a three-month debate on this one, when one is changed the other
generally must be changed somewhat also, so it is a combination.)
The three-point vs. wheel landings fall in a similar category, being hotly
debated (just experienced this on the rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup)
with good points given for each. In this treatise [;)] consider that
three-point and stall landings are the same thing.
As a CFI I suppose I am required to say that the FAA believes that
wheelies are good in high winds and gusting conditions since the rudder
remains effective longer and they believe there is more positive control
in such conditions. Take that or leave it for what it is.
Some airplanes, because of the wing incidence angle and other aerodynamic
peculiararities favor wheel landings (C190/C195, Beach 18's, for example).
In my opinion, sink rate and weight of plane is a large factor. My Maule,
for instance, sinks well and even though I practice wheelies, feel that
the the three-point landings are probably adequate for all circumstances.
(Incidentally, I _always_ teach wheel landings when giving tailwheel
checkouts, unless prohibited by manufacturer.)
Now for the Piet... I've done both three-point and wheelies in Corky's
plane and find both easy to do. The wheel landings are uneventful if you
simply cut power on touchdown and a very small amount of forward pressure,
like you would do on any wheel landing. (Other's techniques may vary.) I
decided to make sure of wheel landings since the Piet _is_ influenced by
wind gusts because of it's light weight, and I thought they might prove
useful in less than 'ideal circumstances'. :) To me, this plane flys
similarly to a lighter weight J-3. Most long-time Cub drivers have always
used the wheel landings to advantage, both for visibility and gusts when
landing.
I now must admit that I favor three-point landings in most planes and
would probably do more of them in the Piet. As someone already pointed
out, you _are_ going rather slowly in that landing and unless gusts are
trying to force the plane back into the air, it is easily controllable.
(One bush pilot technique is to come in like a stall landing and then
force the plane on its wheels after touchdown with forward pressure. This
might be a resource if gusts tend to effect the plane when landing.)
Walt, there certainly isn't any right or wrong answer to this and you
might be wise to practice both and decide with which you feel most
comfortable. There are a lot of different techniques used in landings
which achieve great results, so try different things to decide which you
like and, most importantly, which are the safest for you. (But stay on the
rudders! haahaa)
I certainly am still in the learning stages with Corky's plane regarding
landings and varying wind/weather conditions, so hopefully might have more
information later. Be flexible in your outlooks and be safe in your
flying.
...Edwin
>
>
> I only got my Piet just off the ground last week, and the weather
> closed in. wanted to ask what the landing of choice is. wheel or full
> stall. ( Mike Cuy , I've watched that video of yours many times like
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
Hey Corky
Maybe you should bunk in with your kin at Calgary. We have a Recreational
Pilots permit here in Canada that allows for the type of flying you want to
do.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: NPRM
Pieters,
Here I go again, same song, same tune, same verse. The letter is self
explainatory.
U S Dept of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
The Honorable Jim McCrery ( La 7th Dist)
Member, U S House of Rep
Dear Congressman McCrery:
Thank you for your letter of Oct 2 on behalf of Mr. Claude M Corbett of
Shreveport.
Mr. Corbett requests your support and initiative to persuade the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) "to expedite the effectiveness of the Sport
Pilot category."
Your constituent indicates that he is a long time commercial and military
October 04, 2002 - November 07, 2002
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cv