Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cy

December 10, 2002 - January 05, 2003



      
      
      ....even at cruise I KNOW the 'vair gives more than 60hp.
      
      DJ
      
      
      > against these claims of high HP from a Corvair. 
      > walt
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Airfoil
Date: Dec 10, 2002
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)governair.com>
Kevin, My server at work won't let us access "angelfire" websites. Would you be able to send this airfoil to the Matronics Photoshare, if it's not too much trouble? By the way, I don't know if everybody knows this but we can list files in this area, it's not just for photos. Thanks Kent Hallsten Currently retaking control of "my airplane factory" from the wife and kids -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Holcomb [mailto:ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil .... detailed in that region. The data and coordinates are on the Air Camper page within my personal web page which can be found at: http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ It is a high lift/high drag airfoil as one would expect from a low and slow flier. Kevin Holcomb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: trim system
Date: Dec 10, 2002
If I might add my two cents' worth to the trim setup discussion, I've seen pictures of the Taylorcraft-style setup with mini-tabs on each side of the tailcone near the horizontal stab and it looked interesting and easy to do. However, remember that most Piets tend to be tail-heavy, so adding anything back there is going to cause weight/balance problems. Better to go with the spring or bungee setup like Mike Cuy is using, providing biasing force to the elevator controls. And as for Corky's idea about making the HS adjustable for doing final rigging, it's certainly worth thinking about when building the HS attachment. The alternative is having to 'torque' the HS by differentially tightening the brace wires. Or finding that the plane needs to be trimmed with the elevator out of trail with the HS to fly straight & level, which can only mean more drag. And we certainly don't want more drag on a sports car like the sleek and sassy Pietenpol, do we? ;o) Oscar Ziga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2002
Subject: Re: trim system
The only draw back about Mike Cuys trim system is that if for some strange reason a cable breaks, or there is loss of stick control to the elevator there is no back up. That is why on Cessna 150, Champs, Cubs, the trim is a total different system. You can land a 150, champ, or Cub in an emergency with trim only. I have thought about building one elevator with a cockpit controllable tab. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: trim system
Date: Dec 11, 2002
Dan, This is not entirely accurate. The way my trim is set up (based on Mike Cuy's design) the springs are attached directly to the bellcrank for the elevators. If the cable from the rear stick to the bellcrank breaks, there is still the possibility of flying the airplane with the trim. If a cable breaks between the bellcrank and the elevators, both cables would have to break before you would totally lose control. If one broke but the other was intact, in theory you should be able to control the plane with only one operable elevator. Of course, if the bolt that holds both elevator cables to the bellcrank comes loose, you in a heap o' trouble. Jack The only draw back about Mike Cuys trim system is that if for some strange reason a cable breaks, or there is loss of stick control to the elevator there is no back up. That is why on Cessna 150, Champs, Cubs, the trim is a total different system. You can land a 150, champ, or Cub in an emergency with trim only. I have thought about building one elevator with a cockpit controllable tab. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: trim system
Date: Dec 11, 2002
Dan My elevator has a controllable tab built in. Haven't figured out exactly how to operate it but will likely use a Bowden cable. Shimming the HS would make a lot of sense to establish level flight in average WB without needing trim. Almost any trim method will increase drag. Drag is the Square of the speed so every little bit hurts. Could send pix to those who ask John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of ZigoDan(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim system The only draw back about Mike Cuys trim system is that if for some strange reason a cable breaks, or there is loss of stick control to the elevator there is no back up. That is why on Cessna 150, Champs, Cubs, the trim is a total different system. You can land a 150, champ, or Cub in an emergency with trim only. I have thought about building one elevator with a cockpit controllable tab. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Rickards <krickards(at)cvci.com>
Subject: trim system
Date: Dec 11, 2002
Yes John I would like to see how you have done it. Ken -----Original Message----- From: John McNarry [mailto:jmcnarry(at)escape.ca] Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: trim system Dan My elevator has a controllable tab built in. Haven't figured out exactly how to operate it but will likely use a Bowden cable. Shimming the HS would make a lot of sense to establish level flight in average WB without needing trim. Almost any trim method will increase drag. Drag is the Square of the speed so every little bit hurts. Could send pix to those who ask John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of ZigoDan(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim system The only draw back about Mike Cuys trim system is that if for some strange reason a cable breaks, or there is loss of stick control to the elevator there is no back up. That is why on Cessna 150, Champs, Cubs, the trim is a total different system. You can land a 150, champ, or Cub in an emergency with trim only. I have thought about building one elevator with a cockpit controllable tab. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: trim system
> >Dan >My elevator has a controllable tab built in. Haven't figured out exactly how >to operate it but will likely use a Bowden cable. >Shimming the HS would make a lot of sense to establish level flight in >average WB >without needing trim. Almost any trim method will increase drag. >Drag is the Square of the speed so every little bit hurts. > >Could send pix to those who ask > >John John, Please send me your pictures, very interested in this. Cheers! Kip Gardner (in the process of discovering that a T&B Indicator I bought for $5 is a hopeless piece of junk, but not a bad deal for 'recreational & educational' purposes) 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: w/b
Date: Dec 12, 2002
We had a EAA chapter meeting tonight and did a trial w/b on my Piet. I have a short fuse with an A-65. I still havent installed the brakes, so I came out with an empty weight of 550 lbs and a c/g of 12.2 with the cabanes raked aft 3.5 in. Does this sound in line with others? These figures include installing a 6 gal nose aux. tank empty and a 12 gal. wing tank. With this weight I might consider installing a 35 amp battery in the nose (35 lb.) for a transponder and radio. Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: batteries
Date: Dec 12, 2002
Dick Navratil writes- >With this weight I might consider installing a 35 amp battery in the >nose (35 lb.) for a transponder and radio. Do you want to consider some weight savings? Here's a snip from Mark Langford's KR website that relates his investigation on batteries. Much of what Mark was investigating relates to the requirement for cold cranking amps for a starter, so keep that in mind if you don't need starter juice: ==================================== I'm always looking to save weight, and was quite intesrested in the Black Panther batteries in the Wicks catalog. They list one that has 600 CCA (cold cranking amps) that I later discovered is a 16Ah (at 10 hours) battery, for $113. I looked at Gills, Bells, Interstates, etc, and finally came full circle to the actual manufacturer of the Black Panther, which is Hawker Energy Products. The standard aircraft batteries are typically 25 or 35 Ah. The AGM technology used in the Hawker Genesis batteries makes them very reliable and with an amazingly high CCA value for cranking things like large 6 cylinder Corvair engines. They are also permanently sealed (by definition) and can be mounted in any orientation. My KR2S electrical system is going to be very current miserly. My radio and transponder are Terra (less than 2A combined), strobes are Kuntzlemann (less than 2A draw), ignition is coil and points (1A per 1000 rpm, according to William) totaling 3A at cruise, and my nav lights are super bright LEDs (Stefan Belatchev's idea) that draw less than .1A. All of this can be turned off so that only the engine's coil and fuel pump are running, which totals 3.7 amps. My ignition switch will control ignition coil and fuel pump without a breaker inline (if either quits, you're going down anyway), but all other electrical items will be separate and will have breaker/switches. The G12V16EP battery that I chose will run this "minimum load" for 4 hours! And if my Corvair runs anything like the rest of my cars, it'll start in 1 or 2 seconds, mininizing starting drain. My EIS (Engine Information System) has programmable alarms, and the voltage trigger level can be set to something like 13 volts so that if my alternator quits charging, the EIS will immediately notify me and I'll have something like 2 hours to find a landing spot even without bothering to switch off the radio and transponder! For ME, that's a good enough margin. And it is very compact, with a height of only 3 inches, perfect for the upper firewall shelf of a KR. Best of all, it weighs 13.5 pounds, half the weight of a 35Ah Gill! The icing on the cake is that I ordered it for $64 from one of Hawker's suppliers, Battery Specialties, Inc (1-800-854-5759). That's half what Wicks charges. Battery Specialties is the third place I called, and they just happen to have a bunch of these on order, and they'll be getting them in 4 weeks. More typical is a 6 month waiting list! There must be a reason why these things are in such high demand. Yes, I'll do the testing to make sure that my electrical system has a sufficient margin of safety (after all, my wife's going to be flying this thing, along with my kids, someday), and if I need to, I can add another 13Ah battery (11 pounds) for a backup battery. These two batteries COMBINED weigh less than a Gill, and have almost the same reserve current capacity, but far more cranking power. If you're not inclined to live on the edge like me, you could always buy the G12V26EP for $98 and have one FINE 26Ah battery, with 800 CCA and the potential to mount in any orientation. I also discovered the Interstate U1-33AGM, a 33Ah battery that you should be able to get at your local Interstate dealer for about $85. It uses the same AGM technology and is also permanently sealed like the others I've mentioned. =========================== Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: batteries
Date: Dec 12, 2002
Thanks Oscar The load info is very helpful. My concern is not saving weight at this point as much as moving weight forward. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: batteries > > Dick Navratil writes- > >With this weight I might consider installing a 35 amp battery in the > >nose (35 lb.) for a transponder and radio. > > Do you want to consider some weight savings? Here's a snip from Mark > Langford's KR website that relates his investigation on batteries. Much of > what Mark was investigating relates to the requirement for cold cranking > amps for a starter, so keep that in mind if you don't need starter juice: > ==================================== > I'm always looking to save weight, and was quite intesrested in the Black > Panther batteries in the Wicks catalog. They list one that has 600 CCA (cold > cranking amps) that I later discovered is a 16Ah (at 10 hours) battery, for > $113. I looked at Gills, Bells, Interstates, etc, and finally came full > circle to the actual manufacturer of the Black Panther, which is Hawker > Energy Products. The standard aircraft batteries are typically 25 or 35 Ah. > The AGM technology used in the Hawker Genesis batteries makes them very > reliable and with an amazingly high CCA value for cranking things like large > 6 cylinder Corvair engines. They are also permanently sealed (by definition) > and can be mounted in any orientation. > > My KR2S electrical system is going to be very current miserly. My radio and > transponder are Terra (less than 2A combined), strobes are Kuntzlemann (less > than 2A draw), ignition is coil and points (1A per 1000 rpm, according to > William) totaling 3A at cruise, and my nav lights are super bright LEDs > (Stefan Belatchev's idea) that draw less than .1A. All of this can be turned > off so that only the engine's coil and fuel pump are running, which totals > 3.7 amps. My ignition switch will control ignition coil and fuel pump > without a breaker inline (if either quits, you're going down anyway), but > all other electrical items will be separate and will have breaker/switches. > The G12V16EP battery that I chose will run this "minimum load" for 4 hours! > And if my Corvair runs anything like the rest of my cars, it'll start in 1 > or 2 seconds, mininizing starting drain. > > My EIS (Engine Information System) has programmable alarms, and the voltage > trigger level can be set to something like 13 volts so that if my alternator > quits charging, the EIS will immediately notify me and I'll have something > like 2 hours to find a landing spot even without bothering to switch off the > radio and transponder! For ME, that's a good enough margin. And it is very > compact, with a height of only 3 inches, perfect for the upper firewall > shelf of a KR. Best of all, it weighs 13.5 pounds, half the weight of a 35Ah > Gill! The icing on the cake is that I ordered it for $64 from one of > Hawker's suppliers, Battery Specialties, Inc (1-800-854-5759). That's half > what Wicks charges. Battery Specialties is the third place I called, and > they just happen to have a bunch of these on order, and they'll be getting > them in 4 weeks. More typical is a 6 month waiting list! There must be a > reason why these things are in such high demand. > > Yes, I'll do the testing to make sure that my electrical system has a > sufficient margin of safety (after all, my wife's going to be flying this > thing, along with my kids, someday), and if I need to, I can add another > 13Ah battery (11 pounds) for a backup battery. These two batteries COMBINED > weigh less than a Gill, and have almost the same reserve current capacity, > but far more cranking power. If you're not inclined to live on the edge like > me, you could always buy the G12V26EP for $98 and have one FINE 26Ah > battery, with 800 CCA and the potential to mount in any orientation. I also > discovered the Interstate U1-33AGM, a 33Ah battery that you should be able > to get at your local Interstate dealer for about $85. It uses the same AGM > technology and is also permanently sealed like the others I've mentioned. > =========================== > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: test
Date: Dec 12, 2002
walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 12, 2002
Gene, Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the fuselage between the landing gear attach points? Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across the > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This only > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear. You > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the > plans. > > Gene Rambo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 12, 2002
I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank Pavliga-style fittings. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Gene, > > Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or > others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the > fuselage between the landing gear attach points? > > Ted > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points > > > > > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across > the > > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This > only > > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear. > You > > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the > > plans. > > > > Gene Rambo > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Airfoil
Date: Dec 12, 2002
THANK YOU KEVIN!!!! Your website has the only known picture of my friends Monocoupe 90 in its original Stanavo paint scheme. I have been looking for a picture of this NC11753 for the last twelve years. Restoration has been on hold for a while now until a picture turned up AND YOU HAVE IT!! Astronaut Buzz Aldrin's old man was a corporate pilot for Stanavo and undoubtedly flew this ship. Might you have the original photo or know the source of this or others? Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Holcomb Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil The Pietenpol airfoil as several others mentioned is something that Pietenpol came up with himself. I was curious how it compared to other airfoils so I worked up a set of coordinates based on the published plans (and smoothed, as shown in the plans leaves a bit to be desired mathematically as measurements closer than 1/32 for plans are not very practical.) I then fed the coordinates to XFOIL, a rather nice CFD airfoil analysis program with a neat viscous flow solver. Also, I had to guess a bit at what the shape was at the leading edge as the plans are not very detailed in that region. The data and coordinates are on the Air Camper page within my personal web page which can be found at: http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ It is a high lift/high drag airfoil as one would expect from a low and slow flier. Kevin Holcomb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <chrisw3(at)cox.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > Does anyone know what Airfoil the Air camper uses and have the data for > it? > > -- > Chris Woodhouse > 3147 SW 127th St. > Oklahoma City, OK 73170 > 405-691-5206 (home) > chrisw(at)programmer.net > N35 20.492' > W97 34.342' > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2002
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Piet GN-1 for sale
http://www.geocities.com/nuttydan_1013 Regards, Gary P. McNeel, Jr. MyKitPlane.com EAA Chapter 12, Houston gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com gmcneel(at)simdesk.com http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43 http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=68 "What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?" Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Ted, I think that the cross straps may serve another function, other than reinforcing the landing gear. I think that they connect the left and right lift struts. The lift struts want to pull away from the fuselage as the wings lift the weight of the airplane. Without the cross strap, you are relying on a bracket bolted wood to take up this force, without the bolts pulling out through the edges of the wood. Granted, the wood is a 1" piece of Ash, but steel does much better in tensile strength. Malcolm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Gene, > > Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or > others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the > fuselage between the landing gear attach points? > > Ted > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points > > > > > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across > the > > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This > only > > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear. > You > > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the > > plans. > > > > Gene Rambo > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair College P.S.
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Oops; I forgot to mention one request that William has made regarding the Corvair College coming up on Jan. 18. He asks that if you are going to build an engine at the College, that you have purchased one of his conversion manuals (or purchase one at the time of the College; he will be bringing some to sell). This is only fair, since you wouldn't expect him to give away the conversion info at the College to folks who haven't shared in the investment he made to develop the techniques. Not only that, but the labor and knowledge saved by having William's expertise on-site will easily repay you the cost of a manual. (And no, there won't be anybody at the door checking to see if you have your manual). Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Ted, As designed, the Pietenpol had a one-piece wing which made the use of steel reinforcing straps between the lift strut/landing gear fittings optional. With a three piece wing, the lift loads through the struts will be higher than with the one-piece setup, and using these straps is advisable. The ash crosspiece between the fittings is good for resisting compression, but not too reliable for tensile loads because the attaching bolts concentrate them in the wood. For this reason, I chose to include the straps on my Pietenpol between both front and rear strut fittings. In addition, I welded (edges only) the fittings to the tie straps (my term) so that the the whole assembly could be bolted to the fuselage as a unit. This is one area where I decided to not try to save weight, wish- ing to ensure reliability and durability. In any case, I doubt I ad- ded more than a couple of pounds and the setup has proven itself during literally thousands of takeoffs and landings from rough fields. Cheers, Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
The one-piece wing isn't stiff enough to change the tension on the bottom of the fuselage. Besides, if you work out the stresses, it appears that the only force the center section is seeing is compression. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Graham Hansen [mailto:grhans@cable-lynx.net] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps <grhans@cable-lynx.net> Ted, As designed, the Pietenpol had a one-piece wing which made the use of steel reinforcing straps between the lift strut/landing gear fittings optional. With a three piece wing, the lift loads through the struts will be higher than with the one-piece setup, and using these straps is advisable. The ash crosspiece between the fittings is good for resisting compression, but not too reliable for tensile loads because the attaching bolts concentrate them in the wood. For this reason, I chose to include the straps on my Pietenpol between both front and rear strut fittings. In addition, I welded (edges only) the fittings to the tie straps (my term) so that the the whole assembly could be bolted to the fuselage as a unit. This is one area where I decided to not try to save weight, wish- ing to ensure reliability and durability. In any case, I doubt I ad- ded more than a couple of pounds and the setup has proven itself during literally thousands of takeoffs and landings from rough fields. Cheers, Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Williams" <williams(at)acun.com>
Subject: Pietenpol Propeller
Date: Dec 13, 2002
I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone out there had any experience with this combination. Thanks, Tim Sarasota FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Pietenpol Propeller
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Tim, Before changing from a metal prop to a wooden one, be sure that the change won't mess up your weight and balance. Piets are notoriously tail heavy. A wooden prop might weigh as much as 20 lbs less than a metal one. Just be sure this isn't going to put you into a tail heavy condition. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone out there had any experience with this combination. Thanks, Tim Sarasota FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Pietenpol Propeller
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Most metal props for the small continentals are about 22 lbs and most wood props are around 11 lbs. Don't forget that you will need new bolts and the 3991 squash plate.... chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller Tim, Before changing from a metal prop to a wooden one, be sure that the change won't mess up your weight and balance. Piets are notoriously tail heavy. A wooden prop might weigh as much as 20 lbs less than a metal one. Just be sure this isn't going to put you into a tail heavy condition. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone out there had any experience with this combination. Thanks, Tim Sarasota FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
I put them on mine. My mentor just seemed to point to it on the plans, early on ,and said "make sure you put those on". Didn't seem that hard to do. after the gear was on , and the fuse was upside down anyway, just lay the straps accross and mark out the holes. ( I didn't have straps long enough so I welded two shorter pieces together, so I have a "lump" in the center.) You'll have to grind out strange shapes on both ends of the front straps due to the tabs that are put on for the bungee tubes. But when you're done you'll have a continous steel structure down one wing strut, accross the bottom, and up the other wing strut. (Comforting when you're doing steep turns at 3000 ft. and your cheeks are pulling down to your neck.) walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't > have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it > was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it > in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice > for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader > bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank > Pavliga-style fittings. > > > Gene > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979(at)naples.net> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > > > > > > Gene, > > > > Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or > > others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the > > fuselage between the landing gear attach points? > > > > Ted > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> > > To: > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points > > > > > > > > > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across > > the > > > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This > > only > > > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear. > > You > > > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the > > > plans. > > > > > > Gene Rambo > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Pietenpol Propeller
Date: Dec 13, 2002
I was curious about the GK in the prop designator. I am used to seeing a CK for the small Continentals so I looked to find out the difference. It appears that the CK props are for the 65 and lower hp engines and the GK is for the 75 to 100 hp engines. That means, Tim, that a prop with a CK in the designator will NOT do the job even though it will fit the crank's flange. Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone out there had any experience with this combination. Thanks, Tim Sarasota FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Propeller
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Tim, Don't know that combo.....But can tell you how good a wood prop looks on a Piet. I got a Sensenich prop from my AP at a fair price and on the A-65 it looks great. Let me know and I'll send you a great pic of my DAR and me with my Sensenich prop. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Williams" <williams(at)acun.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller > > I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone out there had any experience with this combination. > Thanks, > Tim > Sarasota FL. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2002
From: Janis Nielsen <nielsen5052(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: engine choices
I'm new on the discussion group. I just got my plans yesterday. I am debating what engine to plan for. I see a lot of you are using the corvair, while some are using continentals. I've seen a few corvairs on the net and on eBay ranging anywhere from $70 to $1500. What should one expect to pay? Also about how much does it cost to convert (approximately) especially if you have to hire someone to do it? How about Lycoming experience in the Pietenpol? If that is a good choice, does anyone have any drawings for a lycoming engine mount? I may be jumping the gun, but like I told my wife, I need an engine to build an airplane around. Bruce Nielsen Spanish Fork, UT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: engine choices
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Bruce, The design does best with a slow turning engine, lots of torque and a big propeller. If it is the Lycoming O-145 you mean, the continental A-65 will do better. Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Janis Nielsen Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine choices I'm new on the discussion group. I just got my plans yesterday. I am debating what engine to plan for. I see a lot of you are using the corvair, while some are using continentals. I've seen a few corvairs on the net and on eBay ranging anywhere from $70 to $1500. What should one expect to pay? Also about how much does it cost to convert (approximately) especially if you have to hire someone to do it? How about Lycoming experience in the Pietenpol? If that is a good choice, does anyone have any drawings for a lycoming engine mount? I may be jumping the gun, but like I told my wife, I need an engine to build an airplane around. Bruce Nielsen Spanish Fork, UT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Thanks Malcolm, Walt and Graham. I kept thinking about the forces from the landing gear. Never considered the lift struts. They are probably the most important part on the plane. So, I will definitely be using the strap. The members of this list are the greatest people on earth. Happy holidays. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Ted, > > I think that the cross straps may serve another function, other than > reinforcing the landing gear. I think that they connect the left and right > lift struts. The lift struts want to pull away from the fuselage as the > wings lift the weight of the airplane. Without the cross strap, you are > relying on a bracket bolted wood to take up this force, without the bolts > pulling out through the edges of the wood. Granted, the wood is a 1" piece > of Ash, but steel does much better in tensile strength. > > Malcolm > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: wow. notice the FAA said it was OK
Date: Dec 13, 2002
"Contributing to the accident were (1) Alaska Airlines' extended lubrication interval, and the FAA's approval of that extension, which increased the likelihood that an unperformed or inadequate lubrication would result in excessive wear of the acme nut threads; and (2) Alaska Airlines' extended end play check interval, and the FAA's approval of that extension, which allowed the excessive wear of the acme nut threads to progress to failure without the opportunity for detection." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
one more question: The spreader bar gear as viewed from the front in the F/G Page 7 shows the landing gear cross bracing cables in line with the lift struts. Is it right that this would carry the lift strut tension loads through to the spreader bar and the in compression across to the opposite side? Seems like the spreader bar gear would add strength and the fuse bottom would not be subjected to as great a load. John Mc -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank Pavliga-style fittings. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: engine choices
> >I'm new on the discussion group. I just got my plans >yesterday. I am debating what engine to plan for. I >see a lot of you are using the corvair, while some are >using continentals. I've seen a few corvairs on the >net and on eBay ranging anywhere from $70 to $1500. >What should one expect to pay? Also about how much >does it cost to convert (approximately) especially if >you have to hire someone to do it? How about Lycoming >experience in the Pietenpol? If that is a good choice, >does anyone have any drawings for a lycoming engine >mount? I may be jumping the gun, but like I told my >wife, I need an engine to build an airplane around. > >Bruce Nielsen >Spanish Fork, UT Hi Bruce, I wouldn't pay more than $150 for a useable Corvair engine & probably less than that. As I've told many others on this list, the best way to find one is to contact your closest CORSA Chapter & ask them to put you in touch with one of their members who has several engines lying around (there always is someone). I lucked out & was given an engine, but I was prepared to pay up to $150. You don't need an engine in runnning condition, just one that you can turn over by hand & is complete. If you are serious about the Corvair, buy Wm. Wynne's conversion manual before you go looking for your engine - you'll save yourself a lot of grief. I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. Welcome to the list - have fun building! Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
Gene, I never did calculate the loads in comparing the one-piece to the three piece wing. But I suspected (incorrectly it seems) that the one- piece wing would have enough stiffness to reduce the ten- sile loads across the lower fuselage somewhat. With the hinged outer panels of my three-piece wing I thought there would be zero stiffness and made sure I installed the straps. From your conclusions, it seems that EVERY PIETENPOL with a wooden fuselage should have these reinforcement straps, regard- less. Thanks for the information! Cheers, Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 13, 2002
I see your point John but the spreader bars would be kind of weak in compression due to their small cross section...Euler's formula...20:1 length to diameter ratio exceeded, etc... when the gear is under normal landing loads, the spreader is in tension and that is the type load it was designed for. With a one piece wing, lift loads, due to the center portion of the wing area, in the cabane struts is minimal in tension. With a two piece wing, due to its hinge like pin(s), the tension loads in the cabane go up due to lift loads. Yet if the wing tips are trying to fold up, with either a one or multiple piece wing, the fuselage box and the cabane struts are trying to hold the strut attach point on the fuselage a fixed distance from the wing making this load a compression load. As a result, the multiple piece wing could get by with less material becuase the loads would counter each other and cancel one or the other out completely. Either way, there is a definite tensile load on the fuselage between the lift strut attach points. I would think it a good idea to take a liitle of the wood away and let some steel carry the load. It would not have to be much. A rough calculation that can be refined by our expert engineers: Figure 1100 lb gross wieght at 6 gs including the safety factor split evenly more or less into one forward and one aft is 3300lb tensile load per strap. 4130 is at 90000 psi tensile strength so you need about .04 square inches of material. So a .090" thick by .5 " wide would give you .045 square inches. You could embed it in epoxy in the crosspiece/plywood floor between the wing strut attach fittings and nobody would ever no it was there....but you. chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John McNarry Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps one more question: The spreader bar gear as viewed from the front in the F/G Page 7 shows the landing gear cross bracing cables in line with the lift struts. Is it right that this would carry the lift strut tension loads through to the spreader bar and the in compression across to the opposite side? Seems like the spreader bar gear would add strength and the fuse bottom would not be subjected to as great a load. John Mc -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank Pavliga-style fittings. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: engine choices
Bruce, Welcome to the list. You can, with a little effort, probably find a suitable engine from free to the $200 range. You won't want a $1500 rebuilt engine because you will certainly tear it apart anyway and make changes to it. Rebuild cost will be around $1200 and lots of fun. I would suggest you get on the Corvaircraft (mailto:corvaircraft-subscribe(at)mailinglists.org ) list also - lots of people with lots of experience and lots of ideas. Also you will want William Wynne's conversion manual - check out www.flycorvair.com. The corvaircraft archives are at: http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp and a don't miss site is http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIRCRAFT/index.html Hope this helps Kirk St Paul -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: engine choices
> >I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary >tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims >you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. > 2-3k is pretty high I think. That would be replacing everything and definitely adding a starter. Thinking about it, I'd say the $1200 I said earlier might be a little low, but not too much if you do most of the work yourself. If you start farming out a lot of work and add things like roller rockers the price will jump substantially. My guess with the 2-3K is also including the intake and exhaust set-up and engine mount. Of course, maybe I just don't look at my receipts often enough out of fear. Kirk -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Raised instrument panel?
Date: Dec 14, 2002
Mike Cuy, I thought I remembered you saying you made your instrument panel and front cowling supports taller than the 9" called for in the plans. I have read all your emails I have saved and can't find it. My question is how much taller did you (or anyone else) make it? Would you make it the same again? Thanks, Ted Brousseau Naples, FL Band saw running and 1/8" plywood in hand ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: engine choices
Date: Dec 14, 2002
The beauty of this aircraft is you have a wide variety of choices on it. Originally, I was going to go with the Model A engine, but after checking out the corvair, I had to go that route. I was on a tight budget thru the whole project, and the corvair gives cheap and power. Just the engine gives you many options. It can be built to be a rocket or just a good powerplant that will get you in the sky. I found the corvair to be very enjoyable to work on. ( the rod bolts are another story) Parts are reasonable and obtainable thru places like Clark's and Corvair Underground. JC Whitney's is a good source also. And whatever way you plan to go, the knowledge here on this list is invaluable. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices <kirkh@unique-software.com> > > > > >I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary > >tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims > >you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. > > > > 2-3k is pretty high I think. That would be replacing everything and > definitely adding a starter. Thinking about it, I'd say the $1200 I > said earlier might be a little low, but not too much if you do most > of the work yourself. If you start farming out a lot of work and add > things like roller rockers the price will jump substantially. My > guess with the 2-3K is also including the intake and exhaust set-up > and engine mount. > > Of course, maybe I just don't look at my receipts often enough out of fear. > Kirk > -- > Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Raised instrument panel?
Ted---I raised the height of both instrument panels by one inch plus the turtle deck height by one inch to give 1) more space for instruments 2) raises the windshields for more wind protection, and 3) I like the more rounded look of the turtledeck. To me the original dimensions make the deck look a bit too flat. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: engine choices
><kirkh@unique-software.com> > >> >>I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary >>tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims >>you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. >> > >2-3k is pretty high I think. That would be replacing everything and >definitely adding a starter. Thinking about it, I'd say the $1200 I >said earlier might be a little low, but not too much if you do most >of the work yourself. If you start farming out a lot of work and add >things like roller rockers the price will jump substantially. My >guess with the 2-3K is also including the intake and exhaust set-up >and engine mount. > >Of course, maybe I just don't look at my receipts often enough out of fear. >Kirk Hi Kirk, As I said, that wasn't an authoritative answer, but I think Wm. does mean 2-3k for the entire installation. I think he bassically says that you can easily do a good job for 2k & for 3k you can get a lot of bells & whistles on the engine. I also think he has said that it would be difficult/foolish to spend 4k on it, unless you just had a hankering to burn up money! I also think the lowest figure he mentions on his web site is someone who was flying for $1500, engine & installation, but he refered to him as a great scrounger. Any way you look at it, it's still a great deal compared to the cost of a comparably-overhauled A-65 or C-85/90. Cheers! Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Raised instrument panel?
Date: Dec 14, 2002
Thanks Mike. I thought it was you who raised it. The band saw is now cutting.... Happy holidays Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Raised instrument panel? > > Ted---I raised the height of both instrument panels by one inch plus the > turtle deck height by one inch to give > 1) more space for instruments 2) raises the windshields for more wind > protection, and 3) I like the more rounded look of > the turtledeck. To me the original dimensions make the deck look a bit > too flat. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Airfoil
Date: Dec 14, 2002
Thanks a lot. I know where I found most of my photos however the ones that are labeled "unknown" are just that. I wish I had kept better records long ago when I started my collection. I give photo credit whenever I know how to credit it. By the way, I am still looking for photos and information on early Pietenpol's (pre ww2 only). Any tips on where to look would be appreciated. Don't bother mention the EAA library, 1. their fee structure is extreamly steep (I dont mind paying reasonable research/reproduction fees but there is clearly far beyond 'cost'), 2. Even if I could spend the money for a photo or two they do not want their photos used on the internet (and when used in books they want royalties). I mistakingly wrote them for assistance thinking that they might be interested in the documentation/distribution of the history of early "homebuilt airplanes." I find it notable when an orgainization with 'education' in their stated goals treats their collections as 'assets' rather than libraries. Kevin Holcomb http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > THANK YOU KEVIN!!!! > > Your website has the only known picture of my friends Monocoupe 90 in its > original Stanavo paint scheme. I have been looking for a picture of this > NC11753 for the last twelve years. Restoration has been on hold for a while > now until a picture turned up AND YOU HAVE IT!! > > Astronaut Buzz Aldrin's old man was a corporate pilot for Stanavo and > undoubtedly flew this ship. > > Might you have the original photo or know the source of this or others? > > Chris Bobka > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin > Holcomb > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > > The Pietenpol airfoil as several others mentioned is something that > Pietenpol came up with himself. I was curious how it compared to other > airfoils so I worked up a set of coordinates based on the published plans > (and smoothed, as shown in the plans leaves a bit to be desired > mathematically as measurements closer than 1/32 for plans are not very > practical.) I then fed the coordinates to XFOIL, a rather nice CFD airfoil > analysis program with a neat viscous flow solver. Also, I had to guess a > bit at what the shape was at the leading edge as the plans are not very > detailed in that region. The data and coordinates are on the Air Camper > page within my personal web page which can be found at: > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > It is a high lift/high drag airfoil as one would expect from a low and slow > flier. > > Kevin Holcomb > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris" <chrisw3(at)cox.net> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > > > Does anyone know what Airfoil the Air camper uses and have the data for > > it? > > > > -- > > Chris Woodhouse > > 3147 SW 127th St. > > Oklahoma City, OK 73170 > > 405-691-5206 (home) > > chrisw(at)programmer.net > > N35 20.492' > > W97 34.342' > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 15, 2002
Thanks for your input Chris. I'm sure I will put the strips in. Peace of mind as well as good engineering. by the way I'm glad "fisherman" didn't chase you away permanently. I value your input to this list. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian Bobka Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps I see your point John but the spreader bars would be kind of weak in compression due to their small cross section...Euler's formula...20:1 length to diameter ratio exceeded, etc... when the gear is under normal landing loads, the spreader is in tension and that is the type load it was designed for. With a one piece wing, lift loads, due to the center portion of the wing area, in the cabane struts is minimal in tension. With a two piece wing, due to its hinge like pin(s), the tension loads in the cabane go up due to lift loads. Yet if the wing tips are trying to fold up, with either a one or multiple piece wing, the fuselage box and the cabane struts are trying to hold the strut attach point on the fuselage a fixed distance from the wing making this load a compression load. As a result, the multiple piece wing could get by with less material becuase the loads would counter each other and cancel one or the other out completely. Either way, there is a definite tensile load on the fuselage between the lift strut attach points. I would think it a good idea to take a liitle of the wood away and let some steel carry the load. It would not have to be much. A rough calculation that can be refined by our expert engineers: Figure 1100 lb gross wieght at 6 gs including the safety factor split evenly more or less into one forward and one aft is 3300lb tensile load per strap. 4130 is at 90000 psi tensile strength so you need about .04 square inches of material. So a .090" thick by .5 " wide would give you .045 square inches. You could embed it in epoxy in the crosspiece/plywood floor between the wing strut attach fittings and nobody would ever no it was there....but you. chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John McNarry Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps one more question: The spreader bar gear as viewed from the front in the F/G Page 7 shows the landing gear cross bracing cables in line with the lift struts. Is it right that this would carry the lift strut tension loads through to the spreader bar and the in compression across to the opposite side? Seems like the spreader bar gear would add strength and the fuse bottom would not be subjected to as great a load. John Mc -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank Pavliga-style fittings. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Airfoil
Date: Dec 15, 2002
Kevin, I agree with you about the attitude of the EAA Library. You can't get much done there when you are trying to research something. I would think that the people that donated stuff to get the library up and going would be pretty mad if they knew that the paying members like you and I really don't have the ability to use the library as one would think it should be used. Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Holcomb Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil Thanks a lot. I know where I found most of my photos however the ones that are labeled "unknown" are just that. I wish I had kept better records long ago when I started my collection. I give photo credit whenever I know how to credit it. By the way, I am still looking for photos and information on early Pietenpol's (pre ww2 only). Any tips on where to look would be appreciated. Don't bother mention the EAA library, 1. their fee structure is extreamly steep (I dont mind paying reasonable research/reproduction fees but there is clearly far beyond 'cost'), 2. Even if I could spend the money for a photo or two they do not want their photos used on the internet (and when used in books they want royalties). I mistakingly wrote them for assistance thinking that they might be interested in the documentation/distribution of the history of early "homebuilt airplanes." I find it notable when an orgainization with 'education' in their stated goals treats their collections as 'assets' rather than libraries. Kevin Holcomb http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > THANK YOU KEVIN!!!! > > Your website has the only known picture of my friends Monocoupe 90 in its > original Stanavo paint scheme. I have been looking for a picture of this > NC11753 for the last twelve years. Restoration has been on hold for a while > now until a picture turned up AND YOU HAVE IT!! > > Astronaut Buzz Aldrin's old man was a corporate pilot for Stanavo and > undoubtedly flew this ship. > > Might you have the original photo or know the source of this or others? > > Chris Bobka > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin > Holcomb > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > > The Pietenpol airfoil as several others mentioned is something that > Pietenpol came up with himself. I was curious how it compared to other > airfoils so I worked up a set of coordinates based on the published plans > (and smoothed, as shown in the plans leaves a bit to be desired > mathematically as measurements closer than 1/32 for plans are not very > practical.) I then fed the coordinates to XFOIL, a rather nice CFD airfoil > analysis program with a neat viscous flow solver. Also, I had to guess a > bit at what the shape was at the leading edge as the plans are not very > detailed in that region. The data and coordinates are on the Air Camper > page within my personal web page which can be found at: > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > It is a high lift/high drag airfoil as one would expect from a low and slow > flier. > > Kevin Holcomb > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris" <chrisw3(at)cox.net> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > > > Does anyone know what Airfoil the Air camper uses and have the data for > > it? > > > > -- > > Chris Woodhouse > > 3147 SW 127th St. > > Oklahoma City, OK 73170 > > 405-691-5206 (home) > > chrisw(at)programmer.net > > N35 20.492' > > W97 34.342' > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 12/14/02
Date: Dec 15, 2002
> > I thought I remembered you saying you made your instrument panel and front > cowling supports taller than the 9" called for in the plans. I have read > all your emails I have saved and can't find it. You can find the answer to this in the first 10 minutes of Mike's video......hint hint.... :-) The Building and Flying of NX48MC. This two hour home video shows building tips, construction techniques and archival footage taken during the building, taxiing, and test flying of Michael Cuy's Pietenpol Air Camper NX48MC $20 plus $3 shipping. Order from: Michael Cuy 298 Runn St. Berea, OH 44017 http://users.aol.com/bpabpabpa/cuyvideo.html disclaimer: I am in NO way affiliated with this character except to say that this endorsement is a shameless attempt at "earning" a ride in his Piet next year at Brodhead!!! (Come on!! I'm just kidding!!!....he would probably do it anyway...) Seriously, there are some essential resources available to us and this is one of them. So, (and I say this expecially in view of the fact that there are several new folks to the list), get the video. After you view it you'll know what I mean...... Jim practicing/learning welding in Plano TX > > My question is how much taller did you (or anyone else) make it? Would you > make it the same again? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: Janis Nielsen <nielsen5052(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: engine choices
Thanks for all of the input. It has given me a lot to think about. I have an aircraft mechanic friend here who wants to help me with building my plane. He has his opinions against automobile engines in airplanes. But I figure, the corvair has been used in this bird for over 40 years. It has to be reliable. I am probably going to follow Kip's advice and get William Wynn's conversion manual. I have also located a CORSA group in Salt Lake City. I also have some leads on some corvair suppliers in St. George and Los Angeles. If I keep my eyes open, I can probably find something reasonable. For Oscar Z. I may be thinking ahead a bit, but since I cannot get to the Corvair College on Jan. 18, is there another one planned this year ('03) or next year ('04). Let me know, so I can plan some vacation time. Thanks guys. Bruce Nielsen Spanish Fork, UT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: engine choices
Date: Dec 15, 2002
Bruce, Do get the manual from William and let your A&P friend read it. Continue to look over the other options, if your A&P friend still thinks you need to go the airplane engine route you will have spent less than $100.00 on confirming your decision. But I bet after he reads William's manual he will agree the Corvair is hard to beat for the money. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janis Nielsen" <nielsen5052(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine choices > > Thanks for all of the input. It has given me a lot to > think about. I have an aircraft mechanic friend here > who wants to help me with building my plane. He has > his opinions against automobile engines in airplanes. > But I figure, the corvair has been used in this bird > for over 40 years. It has to be reliable. I am > probably going to follow Kip's advice and get William > Wynn's conversion manual. I have also located a CORSA > group in Salt Lake City. I also have some leads on > some corvair suppliers in St. George and Los Angeles. > If I keep my eyes open, I can probably find something > reasonable. > > For Oscar Z. > I may be thinking ahead a bit, but since I cannot get > to the Corvair College on Jan. 18, is there another > one planned this year ('03) or next year ('04). Let me > know, so I can plan some vacation time. > > Thanks guys. > > Bruce Nielsen > Spanish Fork, UT > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: engine choices
> > >Bruce, > Do get the manual from William and let your A&P friend read it. Continue >to look over the other options, if your A&P friend still thinks you need to >go the airplane engine route you will have spent less than $100.00 on >confirming your decision. But I bet after he reads William's manual he will >agree the Corvair is hard to beat for the money. >Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN Hi Bruce, There is always a 'Corvair College' every Memorial Day weekend at William's hangar near Daytona Beach - a little far for those of you in the western half of the country, I know, but it is an option. I hope to be there this year or next. Do let your A&P friend read Wm's. manual when you get it, but just be sure YOU are 100% comfortable with the engine choice you make, whatever it finally is. I have discovered that there is a significant minority of aviation folks who just can't stomach the idea of an auto conversion in a plane, or who insist that you 'must' make your auto engine as 'certificated-like' as possible. For example, this past week at my EAA Chapter meeting, one of the members (who is in the final stages of doing a superb restoration on a Yale) practically insisted that I should throw out the standard ignition system on my Corvair & devise a magneto system. I appreciate the prejudice, after all, these systems have worked well for years. But I also know that William tried a magneto system, and then went back & came up with a good, cheap & easy redundant ignition system based on the engine's original system. I like his style of describing everything he tried to come up with his current recommendations, it makes it easier to decide for yourself whether or not you want to do it his way once you know the outcome of other experiments. I'll get off the soapbox now - some of my friends say I should be a politician or preacher, but I there are limits to how much I'll compromise my integrity ;). Cheers, Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: engine choices
> There is always a 'Corvair College' every Memorial > Day weekend at William's > hangar near Daytona Beach - a little far for those > of you in the western > half of the country, I know, but it is an option. I > hope to be there this > year or next. I am hoping to put one together in the wisconsin area around the time of oshkosh and brodhead get togethers. would anybody be interested in having at brodhead during the pietenpol flyin? If the people that host the brodhead flyin and william are willing. Del ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: PIET: Buying wood
Date: Dec 15, 2002
We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board foot. I know there are other options and I need help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? Are most using Spruce or Fir? Thanks Barry Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: mark deacon <wrenchspinner1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: engine choices
--- del magsam wrote: I am hoping to put one together in the wisconsin area around the time of oshkosh and brodhead get togethers. would anybody be interested in having at brodhead during the pietenpol flyin? If the people that host the brodhead flyin and william are willing. Del That would work for me, Memorial day weekend is always booked up by birthdays. Mark Deacon Detroit, Mi ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: PIET: Buying wood
Hi Barry, I'm using western hemlock which is slightly stronger than spruce and varies in weight from slightly less to slightly more than spruce. The best thing to do is go to the archives and put in wood&fir&hemlock&substitute in the search box. This will get you a goodly number of messages to start you off. Then make up your own search string to get more. There's an excellent article, with charts, in the Sport Aviation mag. from the EAA, Sept, 1984. as well. Good Luck, Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIET: Buying wood > > We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board foot. I know there are other options and I need help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? Are most using Spruce or Fir? > Thanks > Barry Davis > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lauritz Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: PIET: Buying wood
Date: Dec 15, 2002
If you know what you are looking for, it is not too hard to find douglas fir that will be quite satisfactory for your aircraft construction. If you want to do a little reesearch on wood, EAA has a book entitled 'Wood' that is a good background data book. I built my Aircamper out of doug fir for structural members) plus some red cedar and white pine as well. $7.00/bd ft sounds a bit high; I paid about $1.40 per lineal ft of 2x4. This is $2.10/bd ft. I went to 84 lumber looked at their clear fir trim stock. 2x4s work out nicely.Suggest that you go see lumber yards that supply contractors; NOT HOME DEPOT OR LOWES. Ask where they keep their clear fir, then go sort through it but restack it so that its neat. I found clear fir 2x4s in 12, 14, 16 and 20 foot lengths; found several 14' sticks that were clear, straight, and full dimension. Then I hefted them and chose the 5 lightest ones. This yielded stock for four spars and the leading and trailing edges. Made the spars 3/4" x 5" (trimmed to 4 3/4". laminated the spars out of 8 pieces of approximately 11/16 x13/16. Later planed them to 3/4' thickness Hope this helps. Lou Larsen in cool Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIET: Buying wood > > We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board foot. I know there are other options and I need help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? Are most using Spruce or Fir? > Thanks > Barry Davis > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Borodent(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 15, 2002
Subject: Re: engine choices
Is the corvair college, lecture, demo and slides- or do the Pieters actually work on their own engines? Either way a broadhead corvair college sounds great. Henry Williams ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: engine choices
> >Is the corvair college, lecture, demo and slides- or do the Pieters actually >work on their own engines? >Either way a broadhead corvair college sounds great. >Henry Williams Henry, There was a great description of the last Daytona College in a past issue of one of the publications (Experimenter? BPA Newsletter?) a few months back. I think Doc Mosher wrote it. It's as hands-on as you want it to be. Bring your engine & parts, in whatever stage of asssembly/disassembly/whatever & William, Kevin & other friends & associates will give you all the help you need. It sounds like a super time - I'm looking forward to my chance to get to one. Del - barring another last-minute disaster, I plan on being at Brodhead this year, so yes, I'd be up for a session of 'College' there! Cheers! Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: engine choices
> Also in Kitplanes not long ago was an article > on engines. It turns out that dual ignition is > not entirely for safety. It is required to provide > two flame fronts for complete burning as AC > engine cylinders are too large for one to do > the job. actually, complete combustion was the primary reason of two sparkplugs. I read that in some old eaa history books. and the reason is mainly the low compression used, leaded fuel, and large diameter pistons. ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: PIET: Buying wood
Barry you could look at sailboat wood suppliers for spruce. there is one in madison wi called mccormicks lumber. but you might have one closer. wood is about $9.00 bd ft. but it is of aircraft quality, and much lighter than fir. Del --- Barry Davis wrote: > > > We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I > looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board > foot. I know there are other options and I need > help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? > Are most using Spruce or Fir? > Thanks > Barry Davis > > > > Click on the > this > generous > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re: PIET: Buying wood
Date: Dec 15, 2002
Hi Barry, I am building a GN1. I also looked around at the price of wood before I started. I am using Spruce for the tail feathers and wing ribs, and Douglas Fir for the spars and fuselage. I am not too worried about the little additional weight of the Fir and the "price is right". Up here in Canada Spruce is $14.50 per board foot compared to $4.25 for Fir and I can get Fir in most builders supplys stores. According to the EAA. Fir is a little more difficult to work with, thats why I chose Spruce for the fiddly bits that require a bit more bending. Good luck on your wood hunt, Ken From: Barry Davis <bed(at)mindspring.com> Date: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIET: Buying wood > >We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board foot. I know there are other options and I need help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? Are most using Spruce or Fir? >Thanks >Barry Davis > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 12/14/02
Date: Dec 15, 2002
Jim, You are right. I thought I remembered Mike saying it. Just couldn't remember where. It has been about 4 months since I watched the video. Guess it is time to do it again. I agree with you on how valuable it is. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 12/14/02 > > > > > I thought I remembered you saying you made your instrument panel and front > > cowling supports taller than the 9" called for in the plans. I have read > > all your emails I have saved and can't find it. > > You can find the answer to this in the first 10 minutes of Mike's > video......hint hint.... :-) > > The Building and Flying of NX48MC. > This two hour home video shows building tips, construction techniques and > archival footage taken during the building, taxiing, and test flying of > Michael Cuy's Pietenpol Air Camper NX48MC > $20 plus $3 shipping. Order from: > Michael Cuy > 298 Runn St. > Berea, OH 44017 > > http://users.aol.com/bpabpabpa/cuyvideo.html > > disclaimer: I am in NO way affiliated with this character except to say that > this endorsement is a shameless attempt at "earning" a ride in his Piet next > year at Brodhead!!! (Come on!! I'm just kidding!!!....he would probably do > it anyway...) > > Seriously, there are some essential resources available to us and this is > one of them. So, (and I say this expecially in view of the fact that there > are several new folks to the list), get the video. After you view it you'll > know what I mean...... > > Jim practicing/learning welding in Plano TX > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Chris, I don't see that the one-piece wing can possibly be stiff enough to affect the cabane and lift strut loading ratios. My reasoning is that I have no doubt that I could, with hand pressure, flex the one-piece wing with the cabane struts removed such that the distance between atatch points changes measurably. This is really a crude way of establishing a Young's modulus of maybe a few hundred to a thousand pounds per inch of displacement. Similarly, I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, changing the length of the cabane struts in a similar way. This strongly suggests that any force on the cabane attach points will be taken up by the struts long before the stiffness of the wing itself becomes a factor, and that attach point stresses should be nearly identical between one and three-piece wings. I totally agree with your other comments though, that the bottom of the fuselage is always in tension, and that force on the cabanes, whether tension or compression, is minimal. Gene Hubbard San Diego ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple of days ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable containers in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While filling the last container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. There was no mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was plastic jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low humidity, and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the risk might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on the concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn center here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is in great hands. This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto gas and portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a non-conductive container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that could ignite fuel vapors. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: PIET: Buying wood
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Just a tidbit on wood. Seems that one big industry for aircraft grade spruce was to make organ pipes for the old pipe organs of the old churches. remember when I was a teen, my neighbor was a contractor for a large construction firm. and he showed me a pile of wood in his basement that came from an old pipe organ that they had dismantled. Didn't know it at the time, but what I saw could have made many Piets. Wonder where that wood is now??? I guess if kept dry, the spruce should be ok? anybody know? Guess my point is,,,don't be afraid to look around, and ask questions, you never know what might turn up. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PIET: Buying wood > > Barry > you could look at sailboat wood suppliers for spruce. > there is one in madison wi called mccormicks lumber. > but you might have one closer. wood is about $9.00 bd > ft. but it is of aircraft quality, and much lighter > than fir. > Del > > --- Barry Davis wrote: > > > > > > We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I > > looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board > > foot. I know there are other options and I need > > help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? > > Are most using Spruce or Fir? > > Thanks > > Barry Davis > > > > > > > > Click on the > > this > > generous > > _-> > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > latest messages. > > List members. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Subject: Re: refueling from cans
From: "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john(at)juno.com>
My two cents I have found that metal gas cans sitting on a plastic truck bed liner can store a big charge. So don't be lazy take that gas can out of the truck and set it on the ground . Dale ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca>
Subject: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Here in Canada at least in Manitoba it is illegal to fill a container while it is in a vehicle. Place it on the ground. Touch the can and a metal part of the nozzle with your hand before touching the nozzle to the can. It is also a good idea to touch the vehicle with your hand before picking up the cans. How many times have you seen or felt that charge as you touch the door handle? More importantly clipping the ground lead to the exhaust stack or metal parts of your airframe doesn't bond the tank mounted up there in the wood wing. Some wooden aircraft have bonding or grounding plugs installed near the tank and braided copper ribbons fitted into the non conductive tank. Our PT 19 Cornell (wood wing) has this arrangement. Just out of curiosity I checked continuity between the tank and engine and found it to be in effect an open. Therefore the bonding socket. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of D.Dale Johnson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans My two cents I have found that metal gas cans sitting on a plastic truck bed liner can store a big charge. So don't be lazy take that gas can out of the truck and set it on the ground . Dale ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 12/15/02
In a message dated 12/15/02 11:57:26 PM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board foot. I know there are other options and I need help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? Are most using Spruce or Fir? >> I bought my Fir from the local lumber yard, and I am still pleased with the gereral quality. VG DF is a little less than a buck a foot for 1 x 4s, double that for 1 x 6s. I used a lot of 2 x 6s to cut longerons, etc. I've spent about 400 dollars for wood so far, and my Fuse is done, along with the tail feathers. Flat Grain DF is available for less, and should be ok for most everything. I'm going to make my spars out of FG DF. I used just a few pieces of Poplar and it was easy to use and light in weight. We have a good store near here that sells Basswood - same price as my Fir. If I built another Fuse I would use some Basswood in those non-structural parts. But my Fuse and tail is not heavy(yet!) Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, Los Angeles ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2002
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: refueling from cans
Hello Oscar, I will like to know what happened and/or how to prevent this from happening. We have used the red plastic containers refuel method for more than 10 years... Never had a problem, but I dont want to take chances. From the gas station hose, to the red plastic containers, to the truck (or car trunk) and drive to the airstrip; then add oil, shake well then pour it to the gas tank of the ultralight or light plane (912's without oil of course). Just like that, no special care, the red container plastic and most of the gas tanks of the ultralights are also plastic (white like the ones used in the Quicksilver Ultralights). Where is the danger point? What special handling procedure is recommended? No fuel pump in the airstrip, so we have to take our oun fuel each week end to be able to fly. We will appreciate any advice, more than 30 ultralights refuel this way every week end in our club... Once I read about it in one list some years ago, but was not shure if it was true... is dificult to believe. But is the second time I read about it. I do not want to take chances, I am the Security Comisioner in my Club, so is important for me. Is a first hand info you got? Thank you (and all) in advance. Saludos Gary Gower --- Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple > of > days ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable > > containers in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While > filling > the last container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. > There was > no mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was > plastic > jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low > humidity, > and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the > risk > might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on > the > concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn > center > here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is in > great > hands. > > This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto > gas and > portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a > non-conductive > container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that could > ignite fuel > vapors. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken" <av8or(at)citizen.infi.net>
Subject: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 16, 2002
It is called static electricity. The same thing you get from walking across the carpet. All of the gas stations around here have signs stating that you are to sent the cans on the ground before filling. As an added precaution I put one hand on a metal part of the pump and touch each can I am going to fill. Just remember one in a million isn't much unless you are the one. Ken av8or(at)citizen.infi.net kring(at)mountainviewdogs.com kring(at)irisweb.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans Hello Oscar, I will like to know what happened and/or how to prevent this from happening. We have used the red plastic containers refuel method for more than 10 years... Never had a problem, but I dont want to take chances. From the gas station hose, to the red plastic containers, to the truck (or car trunk) and drive to the airstrip; then add oil, shake well then pour it to the gas tank of the ultralight or light plane (912's without oil of course). Just like that, no special care, the red container plastic and most of the gas tanks of the ultralights are also plastic (white like the ones used in the Quicksilver Ultralights). Where is the danger point? What special handling procedure is recommended? No fuel pump in the airstrip, so we have to take our oun fuel each week end to be able to fly. We will appreciate any advice, more than 30 ultralights refuel this way every week end in our club... Once I read about it in one list some years ago, but was not shure if it was true... is dificult to believe. But is the second time I read about it. I do not want to take chances, I am the Security Comisioner in my Club, so is important for me. Is a first hand info you got? Thank you (and all) in advance. Saludos Gary Gower --- Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple > of > days ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable > > containers in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While > filling > the last container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. > There was > no mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was > plastic > jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low > humidity, > and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the > risk > might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on > the > concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn > center > here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is in > great > hands. > > This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto > gas and > portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a > non-conductive > container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that could > ignite fuel > vapors. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: refueling from cans
From: DJ Vegh <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Date: Dec 16, 2002
Just this weekend we had a guy catch fire here in Phoenix while filling a gas can. a string of these going on lately! DJ > > > Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple of days > ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable containers > in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While filling the last > container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. There was no > mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was plastic > jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low humidity, > and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the risk > might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on the > concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn > center here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is > in great hands. > > This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto gas > and portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a non- > conductive container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that > could ignite fuel vapors. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > -- DJ Vegh This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: PIET: Buying wood
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Good point, Walt. This is where Wicks Aircraft Supply came from. Wicks has been a manufacturer or pipe organs for years before they decided to get into the aircraft supply business. I got my spars from Wicks and they are beautiful. Wicks still builds nice pipe organs. Jack Just a tidbit on wood. Seems that one big industry for aircraft grade spruce was to make organ pipes for the old pipe organs of the old churches. remember when I was a teen, my neighbor was a contractor for a large construction firm. and he showed me a pile of wood in his basement that came from an old pipe organ that they had dismantled. Didn't know it at the time, but what I saw could have made many Piets. Wonder where that wood is now??? I guess if kept dry, the spruce should be ok? anybody know? Guess my point is,,,don't be afraid to look around, and ask questions, you never know what might turn up. walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Subject: Fuel Tank Mold
I just finished making the mold for the front tank, to make the cowl tank out of fiberglass. Short fuse, Continental engine. It took me alot of time to design & build it to use every nook & cranny up there to put fuel in. It's all waxed up, ready for the glass. I still don't know how well it will work, though, but so far it looks promising. The bottom is sloped forward, so when the plane is in the static laiden position (tail on the ground) any drops of water will drain out of the tank, into the gascolator. No fuel lines or fittings are in the front cockpit. I installed a fitting on the top, at about 10 O'Clock position (viewed from the cockpit), to fill it from the wing tank, so there will be some fuel management with this set up. Boink !! Idea: What if we set up some kind of info base, where those of us that have built jigs, and molds, would donate these items for all to use. Some kind of tracking system would have to be employed to know who has what. We could set up something in the Matronics Arcive, with a specific 'Subject Line' to keep track of who has what. It would certainly save any newbee's alot of time. I'm going to include instructions, and material list, written on one of the plywood sides, if anyone is interested. User pays shipping cost. Chuck Gantzer Wichita, KS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Seibert Bob-r18643 <Bob.Seibert(at)motorola.com>
Subject: Fueling safety
Date: Dec 17, 2002
I need to add my small amount of knowledge to the conversation. I have been hauling auto fuel for my RV-6 for 10 years now and also work in the electronics industry where electrostatic discharge is dealt with on a daily basis. The main culprit with the rise in accidents is low humidity. Refueling on a humid muggy morning is relatively safe, on a dry day it is much more dangerous. Wintertime temperature extremes also cause humidity extremes. If you use plastic cans (who doesn't?), put them on the ground to fill them. This doesn't guarantee grounding but its probably the best we can normally do. Touch them with your grounded hand or to a grounded piece of metal BEFORE putting the gas nozzle in the opening. When you get to the airport, the gas containers will probably have a charge built back up in them again. That gas has been sloshing around against the plastic all the way from the gas station. This definitely will create a charge even if there was not one in existence when they were filled. My personal experience is that the highest charge is at this point in the refueling cycle. Ground the aircraft tank. Use an alligator clip and ground the plastic can with a wire. All this is a lot of bother but probably many of us know of people in our home town who have been maimed and killed by not treating gasoline with respect. Regards, Bob Seibert Piet "almost ready" to cover in Taylor, TX. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doyle Combs" <dcombs(at)ltex.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Mold
Date: Dec 17, 2002
I would certainly be interested in the sharing of the mold. Doyle Combs Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Tank Mold > > I just finished making the mold for the front tank, to make the cowl tank out > of fiberglass. Short fuse, Continental engine. It took me alot of time to > design & build it to use every nook & cranny up there to put fuel in. It's > all waxed up, ready for the glass. I still don't know how well it will work, > though, but so far it looks promising. The bottom is sloped forward, so when > the plane is in the static laiden position (tail on the ground) any drops of > water will drain out of the tank, into the gascolator. No fuel lines or > fittings are in the front cockpit. I installed a fitting on the top, at > about 10 O'Clock position (viewed from the cockpit), to fill it from the wing > tank, so there will be some fuel management with this set up. > > Boink !! Idea: What if we set up some kind of info base, where those of us > that have built jigs, and molds, would donate these items for all to use. > Some kind of tracking system would have to be employed to know who has what. > We could set up something in the Matronics Arcive, with a specific 'Subject > Line' to keep track of who has what. It would certainly save any newbee's > alot of time. I'm going to include instructions, and material list, written > on one of the plywood sides, if anyone is interested. User pays shipping > cost. > > Chuck Gantzer > Wichita, KS > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: refueling from cans
Shell has had three cases of customers > badly burned while refueling automobiles with cell > phones on their persons. 3 cases of customers? is that like 3 cases of oil? :>) Del ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Gary writes- >I will like to know what happened and/or how to prevent this from >happening. Static electricity builds up as the fuel flows through the hose. The charge builds up on the plastic surfaces of the gas can or the truck bed liner, then discharges across an air gap when there is a great enough charge built up. When the air is relatively damp or moist, the charge dissipates through the air more readily than when the air is dry (like in Phoenix, DJ!) Placing the gas cans on the ground gives the static a more ready path to ground, assuming that it's concrete, earth, metal, or something like that. Touching the truck and the metal pump handle with your hand also dissipates built-up charge through your body, which dissipates the charge better than the sharp electrical gap created by the fuel nozzle and the fuel can. >Once I read about it in one list some years ago, but was not shure if >it was true... is dificult to believe. I wouldn't think it would be a problem in more humid climates (like Belize, where the Fisherman lurks) but up here we get some pretty good static when it gets cool and dry. I take out my keys whenever I slide across the truck seat to get out, and let the spark jump the end of my key rather than my finger. >Is a first hand info you got? The San Antonio Express-News. The most reliable source on the planet ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: buying wood
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Walt writes: >don't be afraid to look around, and ask questions, you never know what >might turn up. When searching for wood for my Flying Squirrel's spars, I asked around at the lumber yards for straight, clear fir. Everybody had it in varying quantities and dimensions, but at a price and not the full lengths I wished I had. Then a friend mentioned to me that there was a place that specialized in recycling building materials. The old barns and buildings around town were usually constructed with full-dimension lumber and timbers, and when they get ready to tear down an old building you would be amazed at the heft and condition of these old pieces. I found some fir beams and had the mill rough-saw them to my specs for length and thickness, and when I get ready to do final shaping I'll run them through a planer and select my spars from between the nail holes and minor flaws. I guess my point is, don't overlook the possibility of finding some good wood in an old structure that is being demolished, or in a "used lumber" place (as long as it's been kept dry and insect-free). Not likely you'll find spruce there (unless you're in the Pacific NW), but you may be surprised. Red fir, Douglas fir, hemlock, and other good wood is out there. I paid $75 for the material for 4 spars plus much more, rough-sawn to my specs. It is true that Doug fir has a smell of its own (I like it), and that it splinters easier than other woods, but if you learn on fir you'll have no problem with other building woods. And you'll have to learn to grade wood and detect flaws and defects, but isn't that what this homebuilding is all about anyway? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"piet discussion"
Subject: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up)
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Had some time today, so called my FAA man for the repairman cert with my new building log and all the rest. Turns out he said he was on a different assignment, and to just come down and ask for the duty inspector. and he would take care of me. Stopped in and met the new fellow. Again very nice. We went into the conference room and I laid out all the stuff. He went right to the pictures and looked. Then asked me if I built at least 51%. After I told him that I did 100%, He went right to filling out the paperwork. Got my temporary cert in about an hour. walt now for the big PS,,,,didn't want to see my building log, actually never even mentioned it!!! Go figure. One of those bittersweet times of your life. Ain't life funny? ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged > > Thanks to all who replied, > I guess it is the idea that I have a log, and he told me in so many words to > go and make one. Seemed more interested in building hours. Again he admits > that he had not done one these before. Guess that's how it is in Gov't. > This way when his superior asks him if he saw a building log, he can say > yes. Said it didn't have to be fancy. > Flying to Fl. to see Mom tomorrow, and I hate how the two flights mean > sitting for hours in the two different airports waiting for interconnecting > flights. This way I'll take my notes, My new spiral bound "log to be" and > start making four years worth of entries. Come Monday P.M. on the rebound, > I'll have a log. > Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. Funny that I'll have about 10 times > the hours in the log as getting it inspected by the DAR > walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged > > > > > > > Walt---My inspector here in Cleveland did not ask for a building log but I > > did provide him with > > tons of photos taken during construction, all my invoices from Wicks, > > Dillsburg, ASS, and such. > > That was as Jack P. and Webster's said "a record of perfomance". And it > > varies from inspector to > > inspector I'm sure. My guy simply got me the proper form, send me over > > to the FSDO office and I > > filled it out. The guy there mailed it to OKC and about a month later I > > got my repairman's ticket in the mail > > at home. > > > > I forwarded your e-mail Walt to my inspector in Cleve. here this AM to get > > his advice. Will forward that to > > the list when he replies. You should not have to mess around with > > creating an after-the-fact log since you have > > so many legitimate documents that are dated and show progress to even a > 3rd > > grader. > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up)
Date: Dec 17, 2002
12/17/2002 03:33:27 PM Hey Walt: Look at it this way you just took a course in Creative Writing courtesy of the Federal Government :-) At least you got your certificate... John Duprey "walter evans" (at)matronics.com on 12/17/2002 03:12:10 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up) Had some time today, so called my FAA man for the repairman cert with my new building log and all the rest. Turns out he said he was on a different assignment, and to just come down and ask for the duty inspector. and he would take care of me. Stopped in and met the new fellow. Again very nice. We went into the conference room and I laid out all the stuff. He went right to the pictures and looked. Then asked me if I built at least 51%. After I told him that I did 100%, He went right to filling out the paperwork. Got my temporary cert in about an hour. walt now for the big PS,,,,didn't want to see my building log, actually never even mentioned it!!! Go figure. One of those bittersweet times of your life. Ain't life funny? ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged > > Thanks to all who replied, > I guess it is the idea that I have a log, and he told me in so many words to > go and make one. Seemed more interested in building hours. Again he admits > that he had not done one these before. Guess that's how it is in Gov't. > This way when his superior asks him if he saw a building log, he can say > yes. Said it didn't have to be fancy. > Flying to Fl. to see Mom tomorrow, and I hate how the two flights mean > sitting for hours in the two different airports waiting for interconnecting > flights. This way I'll take my notes, My new spiral bound "log to be" and > start making four years worth of entries. Come Monday P.M. on the rebound, > I'll have a log. > Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. Funny that I'll have about 10 times > the hours in the log as getting it inspected by the DAR > walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged > > > > > > > Walt---My inspector here in Cleveland did not ask for a building log but I > > did provide him with > > tons of photos taken during construction, all my invoices from Wicks, > > Dillsburg, ASS, and such. > > That was as Jack P. and Webster's said "a record of perfomance". And it > > varies from inspector to > > inspector I'm sure. My guy simply got me the proper form, send me over > > to the FSDO office and I > > filled it out. The guy there mailed it to OKC and about a month later I > > got my repairman's ticket in the mail > > at home. > > > > I forwarded your e-mail Walt to my inspector in Cleve. here this AM to get > > his advice. Will forward that to > > the list when he replies. You should not have to mess around with > > creating an after-the-fact log since you have > > so many legitimate documents that are dated and show progress to even a > 3rd > > grader. > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Subject: Re: buying wood
Oscar and the other Pieters looking for good wood, First, I'm not a wood salesman but I will toot my horn for Edensaw Woods Ltd. I bought 128 bd ft, 8 pcs 2x6x16ft rough sawn KD VG w/ 18 to 24 gpi, no pitch pockets or knots, Douglas Fir. Beautiful wood, straight and light and strong. It dresses out perfect. I paid $4.65 bd ft plus freight from Puget Sound to Shreveport, about $140. For what I got it was more than a bargain. He also has sitka spruce at I don't know the price. Edensaw Woods Ltd 211 Seton rd Port Townsend, Wa 98368 800 745 3336 www.edensaw.com Ask for Jim (Kiwi) Ferris For economy and strength try #1 Southern Pine for your cap strips. Buy 2x4s and rip ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom" <caroll(at)mninter.net>
Subject: Re: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 17, 2002
The problem with static charges causing a fire has been dealt with by the Army many years ago. They have to solider filling up the truck connect a ground strap (conductive cable to dissipate static) from the truck to earth-n-ground or the can if a can is being used before contact is made. At least they did when I was in the service. Although less likely a static charge can be generated in humid climates depending the type of clothing and shoes the person is wearing. I don't know why the oil industry has not required something like that a ground strap at a gas station. Probably because of the cost. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dmott9(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2002
Subject: Re: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up)
In a message dated 12/17/02 3:15:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net writes: > now for the big PS,,,,didn't want to see my building log, actually never > even mentioned it!!! Go figure. > One of those bittersweet times of your life. Ain't life funny? ..and Walt, if you had not spent all the time in preparing that building log, he would have wanted to see it. Its the fact that you had all the right documentation that HE was looking for at the time. This appears to be totally random, whether they want to see the building log and/or the photo log. Life is all about these "quirks" ain't it ? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 17, 2002
I believe the hose and nozzle is grounded and it grounds the car when slid into the opening. Ted Brousseau I knew this humid place was good for something Naples, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom" <caroll(at)mninter.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans > > The problem with static charges causing a fire has been dealt with by the > Army many years ago. They have to solider filling up the truck connect a > ground strap (conductive cable to dissipate static) from the truck to > earth-n-ground or the can if a can is being used before contact is made. At > least they did when I was in the service. > Although less likely a static charge can be generated in humid climates > depending the type of clothing and shoes the person is wearing. > I don't know why the oil industry has not required something like that a > ground strap at a gas station. Probably because of the cost. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: first flights
Date: Dec 18, 2002
You folks who are nearing completion and who are EAA members will surely want to immortalize your Piets by getting the centennial data plate that EAA is offering to anyone who completes their homebuilt between Dec. 17, 2002 and Dec. 31, 2003. This commemorates the 100th anniversary of powered flight (Dec. 17, 1903). There is info on the EAA website, at
http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/021212_package.html I asked the EAA rep about the requirements since it says "any homebuilt aircraft completed..." but then uses the registration date as the standard. I pointed out that many builders get the registration well before completing their aircraft (like myself), and he said that the registration isn't the only thing they will look at. It's mostly on the honor system and based on the builder providing sufficient documentation to the effect that the plane was completed in that timeframe. They didn't define "completed" as finished and flown, or finished and getting airworthiness, or just what. However, the EAA rep did say that it wasn't tied to getting your airworthiness because he presumed that you would have the centennial data plate affixed to the aircraft prior to airworthiness inspection (sorry, Corky and maybe Walt). DJ and some of the rest of you, here's your goal for completing your Piets in the next 12 months-! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 18, 2002
If you run on the premise that you ground it (your car, etc.) as the nozzle slips into the opening, isn't there a chance of a spark jumping the gap as the nozzle gets close? Is that not why we ground the airplane first AWAY from the gas tank and vent opeings so if it does want to spark it can do so in a benign place? The threat is real. Even with an automobile. Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ted Brousseau Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans I believe the hose and nozzle is grounded and it grounds the car when slid into the opening. Ted Brousseau I knew this humid place was good for something Naples, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom" <caroll(at)mninter.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans > > The problem with static charges causing a fire has been dealt with by the > Army many years ago. They have to solider filling up the truck connect a > ground strap (conductive cable to dissipate static) from the truck to > earth-n-ground or the can if a can is being used before contact is made. At > least they did when I was in the service. > Although less likely a static charge can be generated in humid climates > depending the type of clothing and shoes the person is wearing. > I don't know why the oil industry has not required something like that a > ground strap at a gas station. Probably because of the cost. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2002
From: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Vertical CG
Does anyone know an approx vertical CG down from the top longeron? Just trying to figure out landing gear placment and this would help. Thanks Kirk ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up)
Walt !!! Way to go on getting your temporary Repairman's Certificate from the FAA !!!! You be a certified mechanic on your plane now......you are your own A&P and IA !!!! Hah ! Good going. So what are you going to charge yourself to do your condition inspections or hourly maintenance work ? It's a joy........I know. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: Vertical CG
Date: Dec 18, 2002
Kirk, Don't know the vertical CG, but per Bill Rewey at his Piet forums at Sun&Fun. No breaks, leave landing gear as per plans. With breaks, move axle forward 3". Skip >Just trying to figure out landing gear placment and this would help. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2002
From: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Vertical CG
I wish it were that easy. I am dealing with a number of things that make figuring landing gear a bit more complex. 1) My plane is a rebuild so a number of things are "preset". 2) The plane came with cub style gear and I am switching to straight axle. 3) It is an extended fuselage 4) I am shifting the LE back 4" So, I'm trying to fit the landing gear within the 15-20 degree angle of the CG mentioned in Bingelis (the yellow book). I working off the LG drawings from the Flying and Glider manual as a side note. Truthfully, I'm enjoying all the figuring and designing. Kirk > >Kirk, >Don't know the vertical CG, but per Bill Rewey at his Piet forums at >Sun&Fun. >No breaks, leave landing gear as per plans. >With breaks, move axle forward 3". >Skip > > >Just trying to figure out landing gear placment and this would help. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up)
Date: Dec 18, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Fw: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged ( ironic follow-up) > >> So what are you going to charge yourself to do your condition inspections > or hourly maintenance work ? >> Figured I'd do it for a couple of free rides in the Piet. walt > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: New guy
Date: Dec 18, 2002
A couple of days ago a new Pieter (?) wrote that he was getting started and was located in the Orlando area. I'd like to get in touch with you if you could answer this request directly, I'd appreciate it. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Selling some Piet stuff
Date: Dec 18, 2002
Doug, Did you find good homes for all your model "B" carbs & manifolds? and for your Scout project?? Been clearing out of some of my older e-mails & thought I'd check with you about this stuff! ;-) Keep 'em Flying! Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: <Doug413(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Selling some Piet stuff > > Only one model B carb, three after market B's, one or two extra manifolds, and a complete A engine ready for installation. Doug Bryant > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2002
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: 'Twas the Night Before Christmas.....
This is also a good one... Subject: 'Twas the Night Before Christmas..... 'Twas the night before Christmas, and out on the ramp, Not an airplane was stirring, not even a Champ. The aircraft were fastened to tiedowns with care, In hopes that come morning, they all would be there. The fuel trucks were nestled, all snug in their spots, With gusts from two-forty at 39 knots. I slumped at the fuel desk, now finally caught up, And settled down comfortably, resting my butt. When the radio lit up with noise and with chatter, I turned up the scanner to see what was the matter. A voice clearly heard over static and snow, Called for clearance to land at the airport below. He barked his transmission so lively and quick, I'd have sworn that the call sign he used was "St. Nick". I ran to the panel to turn up the lights, The better to welcome this magical flight. He called his position, no room for denial, "St. Nicholas One, turnin' left onto final." And what to my wondering eyes should appear, But a Rutan-built sleigh, with eight Rotax Reindeer! With vectors to final, down the glideslope he came, As he passed all fixes, he called them by name: "Now Ringo! Now Tolga! Now Trini and Bacun! On Comet! On Cupid!" What pills was he takin'? While controllers were sittin', and scratchin' their head, They phoned to my office, and I heard it with dread, The message they left was both urgent and dour: "When Santa pulls in, have him please call the tower." He landed like silk, with the sled runners sparking, Then I heard "Left at Charlie," and "Taxi to parking." He slowed to a taxi, turned off of three-oh And stopped on the ramp with a "Ho, ho-ho-ho..." He stepped out of the sleigh, but before he could talk, I ran out to meet him with my best set of chocks. His red helmet and goggles were covered with frost And his beard was all blackened from Reindeer exhaust. His breath smelled like peppermint, gone slightly stale, And he puffed on a pipe, but he didn't inhale. His cheeks were all rosy and jiggled like jelly, His boots were as black as a cropduster's belly. He was chubby and plump, in his suit of bright red, And he asked me to "fill it, with hundred low-lead." He came dashing in from the snow-covered pump, I knew he was anxious for drainin' the sump. I spoke not a word, but went straight to my work, And I filled up the sleigh, but I spilled like a jerk. He came out of the restroom, and sighed in relief, Then he picked up a phone for a Flight Service brief. And I thought as he silently scribed in his log, These reindeer could land in an eighth-mile fog. He completed his pre-flight, from the front to the rear, Then he put on his headset, and I heard him yell, "Clear!" And laying a finger on his push-to-talk, He called up the tower for clearance and squawk. "Take taxiway Charlie, the southbound direction, Turn right three-two-zero at pilot's discretion" He sped down the runway, the best of the best, "Your traffic's a Commander, inbound from the west." Then I heard him proclaim, as he climbed thru the night, "Merry Christmas to all! I have traffic in sight." ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fund Raiser Free Gift Shipping Status...
Date: Dec 19, 2002
Matt, Please unsubscribe me for a short time. I had to go out of town for 4 weeks and my computer is holding 1,200 E-mails for me. I will resubscribe once I get caught up. Thanks, Alex Sloan alexms1(at)bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fund Raiser Free Gift Shipping Status... > > > Dear Listers, > > A couple of people have written asking what the shipping status was of > their free List Contribution Gifts. Seemed like some status was in order > and I thought I detail where we're at... > > > Flight Bag Requests > ------------------- > > On 11/20/02 I shipped out the first batch of Flight Bag-Only (FBO) gift > requests. I shipped all FBO gift requests I had received from 11/1 to > 11/19 except for 3 (Sorry guys!) - I ran out of my first shipment flight > bags! Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com > ) is supplying me with another batch flight bags which should arrive in > about 2 weeks. > > By the way, these are REALLY nice Flight Bags. Extremely well built and > very professional looking. Folds down into a very small size, but will > hold a huge amount of stuff. If you fly, and you've got a lot of stuff, > they you WANT one of these guys. Surf over to the List Contribution page > for details on how to get one of your own!!! > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > The Flight Bags have been shipped out US Mail Parcel Post in a large, and I > mean LARGE, padded white plastic envelope. According to the Post Office, > worse case delivery time would be 8 days to destinations on the East Coast, > but indicated it would likely take a lot less time. > > > Archive CDROM Requests > ---------------------- > > The Archive CDROMs will be mastered and burned on or about December 1 and > should ship out shortly there after. Shipping will be US Mail, Media Rate > in a big padded white envelope. The Archive List data included will be up > to November 30th. > > > Flight Bag and Archive CDROM Requests > ------------------------------------- > > These combination orders will ship out when the Archive CDROMs are complete > as described above, likely a little after December 1. The Flight Bag and > the CDROM will be shipped together in the same Giant white padded envelope! > > > Again, I want to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore for providing > these awesome Flight Bags to support the List Fund Raiser. Andy has gone > way beyond the call of duty with regard to his support of the Lists this > year and to show your gratitude I would ask that you have a look at his web > site and great media offerings. You'll find some excellent deals on some > very useful material. http://www.buildersbooks.com > > And finally, I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a > Contribution so far this year! Your generosity and kindness is greatly > appreciated. If you've been putting off making a Contribution, now's a > great time show your appreciation in plenty of time to make it onto this > year's List of Contributors AND get your free gift with qualifying > Contribution!!! > > List Contribution Site: > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution/ > > > Thank you! > > Matt Dralle > Email List Administrator > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. > > Benjamin Franklin > Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"piet discussion"
Subject: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
Date: Dec 19, 2002
I guess I could try to look this up, and get a headache in the process, or I could ask you guys. Question,,, If I'm in phase I , and run into my instructor with a zillion hours, who gave me my last BFR says "let me climb in the front and go flying" ( he never said it, only in my imagination). Is this in any way legal? Or as they say in the operating limitations " the second person has to be necessary for the flight". Just curious. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
Date: Dec 19, 2002
Walt,,, I'm quite sure that your ship has to be flown solo untill you hours are done. Since there can only be one PIC, he would have to be a passenger. Now if your feeling real brave and he is qualified, you may let him take it around the pattern. ( He might remember that next BFR ). What's that thing about Murphy's law, or is it Murphy's soap, oh well, just keep flying you lucky dog and I'll be up there with ya real soon. Shooting for a January inspection. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing > > I guess I could try to look this up, and get a headache in the process, or I could ask you guys. > > Question,,, If I'm in phase I , and run into my instructor with a zillion hours, who gave me my last BFR says "let me climb in the front and go flying" ( he never said it, only in my imagination). Is this in any way legal? Or as they say in the operating limitations " the second person has to be necessary for the flight". > Just curious. > > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
Date: Dec 19, 2002
No. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing I guess I could try to look this up, and get a headache in the process, or I could ask you guys. Question,,, If I'm in phase I , and run into my instructor with a zillion hours, who gave me my last BFR says "let me climb in the front and go flying" ( he never said it, only in my imagination). Is this in any way legal? Or as they say in the operating limitations " the second person has to be necessary for the flight". Just curious. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: 2002 EAA plate
Date: Dec 19, 2002
Oscar assumes that everyone buys into the myth that the 1902 flight by the Wright brothers was the first. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
We've got an instructor at our airport that does exactly that for the rv guys and others. he has gotten many new flyers and planes going. I have my tailwheel endorsement thru him. he has went to meetings with the local faa boys and is ok'ed thru many insurance companys to do this Del --- Christian Bobka wrote: > Bobka" > > No. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On > Behalf Of walter > evans > To: Fishnet; piet discussion > Subject: Pietenpol-List: a question on reg's to get > the winter juices > flowing > > > > > I guess I could try to look this up, and get a > headache in the process, or I > could ask you guys. > > Question,,, If I'm in phase I , and run into my > instructor with a zillion > hours, who gave me my last BFR says "let me climb in > the front and go > flying" ( he never said it, only in my imagination). > Is this in any way > legal? Or as they say in the operating limitations > " the second person has > to be necessary for the flight". > Just curious. > > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > > > Click on the > this > generous > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Anybody know how to
Date: Dec 20, 2002
My address book was flushed when I defragged the hard drive last week along with ALL my emails that I have saved so I need help.... Does anyone out there have the email address for Ed Grentzer? chris bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Latest edition of ToFly!
Date: Dec 20, 2002
Is anybody else missing pages 11/12 and 37/38 from the issue of To FLy! that just came in the mail last week? Chris Bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2002
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Anybody know how to
Try this one Chris flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com -Gary McNeel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian > Bobka > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:11 AM > To: pietenpol > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anybody know how to > > > > > My address book was flushed when I defragged the hard drive last > week along > with ALL my emails that I have saved so I need help.... > > Does anyone out there have the email address for Ed Grentzer? > > chris bobka > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
Date: Dec 20, 2002
12/20/2002 11:22:24 AM Walt: Sorry to say only necessary flight crew. If you were willing you could let him solo, but otherwise any second pilot would still be a passenger. John Duprey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craigo" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: 2002 EAA plate
Date: Dec 20, 2002
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, catdesigns(at)juno.com wrote: > > catdesigns(at)juno.com > > So Larry who do you think was first to fly? > And, if you ask any European or South American, they will tell you that it was a Frenchman several years before the Wrights - of whom most have never heard! Craig Lake Worth, FL Bakeng Duce NX96CW PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
Date: Dec 20, 2002
John, Thanks. I had no intentions of anybody riding with me, just happened to think of it and start to wonder. You know how one can open up a discussion on one of the regs, and it becomes a free for all. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: <John_Duprey(at)vmed.org> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing > > > Walt: Sorry to say only necessary flight crew. If you were willing you > could let him solo, but otherwise any second pilot would still be a > passenger. > > John Duprey > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)controlvision.com>
Subject: Selling some Piet stuff
Date: Dec 20, 2002
Mike I have a model A engine, carb and mag I need to sell. The engine has been torn down and inspected but not converted yet and all parts are included. I also have an O-145 engine and engine mount for a Piet or GN-1 that I need to sell. If your interested I live over by Burlington, Ks. Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Yotz" <greg(at)controlvision.com>
Subject: Selling some Piet stuff
Date: Dec 20, 2002
Mike I have a model A engine, carb and mag I need to sell. The engine has been torn down and inspected but not converted yet and all parts are included. I also have an O-145 engine and engine mount for a Piet or GN-1 that I need to sell. If your interested I live over by Burlington, Ks. Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fund Raiser Free Gift Shipping Status...
Date: Dec 20, 2002
Matt, Sorry to have bothered you with this letter as it did not work and I had 1,113 E-mails waiting for me when I returned. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fund Raiser Free Gift Shipping Status... > > Matt, > Please unsubscribe me for a short time. I had to go out of town for 4 weeks > and my computer is holding 1,200 E-mails for me. I will resubscribe once I > get caught up. > Thanks, > Alex Sloan > alexms1(at)bellsouth.net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fund Raiser Free Gift Shipping Status... > > > > > > > > Dear Listers, > > > > A couple of people have written asking what the shipping status was of > > their free List Contribution Gifts. Seemed like some status was in order > > and I thought I detail where we're at... > > > > > > Flight Bag Requests > > ------------------- > > > > On 11/20/02 I shipped out the first batch of Flight Bag-Only (FBO) gift > > requests. I shipped all FBO gift requests I had received from 11/1 to > > 11/19 except for 3 (Sorry guys!) - I ran out of my first shipment flight > > bags! Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com > > ) is supplying me with another batch flight bags which should arrive in > > about 2 weeks. > > > > By the way, these are REALLY nice Flight Bags. Extremely well built and > > very professional looking. Folds down into a very small size, but will > > hold a huge amount of stuff. If you fly, and you've got a lot of stuff, > > they you WANT one of these guys. Surf over to the List Contribution page > > for details on how to get one of your own!!! > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > The Flight Bags have been shipped out US Mail Parcel Post in a large, and > I > > mean LARGE, padded white plastic envelope. According to the Post Office, > > worse case delivery time would be 8 days to destinations on the East > Coast, > > but indicated it would likely take a lot less time. > > > > > > Archive CDROM Requests > > ---------------------- > > > > The Archive CDROMs will be mastered and burned on or about December 1 and > > should ship out shortly there after. Shipping will be US Mail, Media Rate > > in a big padded white envelope. The Archive List data included will be up > > to November 30th. > > > > > > Flight Bag and Archive CDROM Requests > > ------------------------------------- > > > > These combination orders will ship out when the Archive CDROMs are > complete > > as described above, likely a little after December 1. The Flight Bag and > > the CDROM will be shipped together in the same Giant white padded > envelope! > > > > > > Again, I want to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore for providing > > these awesome Flight Bags to support the List Fund Raiser. Andy has gone > > way beyond the call of duty with regard to his support of the Lists this > > year and to show your gratitude I would ask that you have a look at his > web > > site and great media offerings. You'll find some excellent deals on some > > very useful material. http://www.buildersbooks.com > > > > And finally, I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a > > Contribution so far this year! Your generosity and kindness is greatly > > appreciated. If you've been putting off making a Contribution, now's a > > great time show your appreciation in plenty of time to make it onto this > > year's List of Contributors AND get your free gift with qualifying > > Contribution!!! > > > > List Contribution Site: > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution/ > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > Matt Dralle > > Email List Administrator > > > > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > > > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. > > > > Benjamin Franklin > > Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had...........
Walt----not one to break any FAA regulations, but one night I had this dream. I had about 15 hours on my Piet and my girlfriend at the time, who helped me quite a bit here and there with the project, said she wanted to be my first passenger. So in this dream I flew the plane to a private grass strip about 10 minutes away and she met me there by car. I felt at the time that the plane was quite safe and that I was comfortable to give a ride on a nice, calm, wind-free, sunny June day towards sunset. We went around this small airport for about a 20 minute ride and I landed so she could drive home to meet me at my home field. Just dreaming of a White Christmas now though:)))) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had...........
Date: Dec 20, 2002
Mike, I hear exactly what you are saying. Sometimes I hear my self saying (even though I've gotten my self to this point with the work of my own hands, and alot of hours as a "mole" in the workshop, comming out while doing some intricate part, only to find a beautiful July afternoon.) " I can't believe I'm flying in this thing, this is too good to be true." I think that most builders, because they enjoy the process so much,,,Don't think they deserve what they are getting in the rewards. There is nothing to compare with being up above,,,and looking down,( with the orange sky off to the side, and the air is still). I'm not a "religious" person,,,but I know there is a higher 'plateau', not sure what it is, but know it's there. Ain't life grand??? walt NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had........... > > Walt----not one to break any FAA regulations, but one night I had this > dream. I had about 15 hours on my Piet > and my girlfriend at the time, who helped me quite a bit here and there > with the project, said she wanted to be my > first passenger. So in this dream I flew the plane to a private grass strip > about 10 minutes away and she met me there > by car. I felt at the time that the plane was quite safe and that I was > comfortable to give a ride on a nice, calm, wind-free, > sunny June day towards sunset. We went around this small airport for > about a 20 minute ride and I landed so she could > drive home to meet me at my home field. Just dreaming of a White > Christmas now though:)))) > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2002
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: a question on reg's to get the winter juices flowing
If you need help flying it, then he would be necessary flight crew. he would be necessary for safe flight. This is not from me. its from the local FAA. Del --- John_Duprey(at)vmed.org wrote: > John_Duprey(at)vmed.org > > > Walt: Sorry to say only necessary flight crew. If > you were willing you > could let him solo, but otherwise any second pilot > would still be a > passenger. > > John Duprey > > > > Click on the > this > generous > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had...........
Date: Dec 20, 2002
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had........... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mike, My gosh, what a coincidence, I have almost the same kind of a dream! John +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Walt----not one to break any FAA regulations, but one night I had this > dream. I had about 15 hours on my Piet > and my girlfriend at the time, who helped me quite a bit here and there > with the project, said she wanted to be my > first passenger. So in this dream I flew the plane to a private grass strip > about 10 minutes away and she met me there > by car. I felt at the time that the plane was quite safe and that I was > comfortable to give a ride on a nice, calm, wind-free, > sunny June day towards sunset. We went around this small airport for > about a 20 minute ride and I landed so she could > drive home to meet me at my home field. Just dreaming of a White > Christmas now though:)))) > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobka(at)charter.net
Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#1874964126: cougar
1 kit
Date: Dec 21, 2002
Look guys, this even has a complete C-85 with it and it going pretty cheap right now. chris bobka Title of item: cougar 1 kit Seller: unlimitedcache Price: Currently $805.01 To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874964126 Item Description: cougar 1 kit Vehicle Description HOMEBUILT COPY!! Cougar 1 copy of a wittman tailwind approximately 25 years old. Ran well when disassembled approximately 10 years ago. It has a continental C 85-12 engine. Needs some welding on frame. May need some parts. sold AS IS. Buyer pays for shipping ( Ashland, Oregon 97520) Call John (541) 915-1616 to get an idea of what you are buying go to http://www.homebuilt.org/ After purchasing, pay instantly with your credit card through PayPal! function dw(nu){document.write(s1+"ppslv"+nu+".gif"+s2);} f1="document.links"; s1="\"; c1=c2=c3=c4=0; for(i=0;i=0){c1++;}else if(((document.links[i].search)).indexOf("BetterSeller")=0){c2++;}else if((((document.links[i].search)).indexOf("ListItemForSaleShow")=0)||(((document.links[i].search)).indexOf("ListItemForSaleAutosShow")=0)){c3++;}else if((((document.links[i].hash)).indexOf("ListItemForSaleShow")=0)||(((document.links[i].hash)).indexOf("ListItemForSaleAutosShow")=0)){c4++;}}} if((c1=2)||(c20)||(c30)||(c40)){dw(3);}else{dw(2);} f11="xclick-auction";f13="iid=";f14=""; for(i=0;i0){s11=document.links[i].search;j=s11.indexOf(f13);if(j0){s11=s11.slice((j+(f13.length)));for(k=0;k=0){var p=new Array();p[0]=document.links[i].protocol;p[1]=document.links[i].hostname;p[2]=document.links[i].pathname;for(j=0;j ") airplane cowel is fiberglass, doors are aluminum, wings are plywood and fabric, body skin is fabric, frame 4130 steel tubing, engine has 470 hours. Log book and plans available. i will have a picture in a few. please email me for it. Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: 2002 EAA plate
Like all such breakthroughs in history, there were many people and organizations working parallel towards the same goal. Many of them were just as smart and worked just as hard as the Wrights. The Wrights came up with the right control system, the right engine, the right airfoil etc. at the right time. They also had the newspaper and photographic documentation, albeit very slim. What if that AC had crashed on that day? This is an extremely likely outcome of such a flight. That would have set them back an entire year if it was serious enough. One of the others would have filled the void in that time. They were close, very close. the Wrights were intelligent, hardworking, insightfull men who deserve their place in history. Just don't discount the others as loser also rans. They don't deserve it. I must admit though, it's nice to see a couple of shadetree homebuilders beat out the likes of Bell et al, with all their money, education and backing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craigo" <craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com> Subject: Re: Re:Pietenpol-List: 2002 EAA plate > > On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, catdesigns(at)juno.com wrote: > > > > > catdesigns(at)juno.com > > > > So Larry who do you think was first to fly? > > > And, if you ask any European or South American, they > will tell you that it was a Frenchman several years > before the Wrights - of whom most have never heard! > > Craig > Lake Worth, FL > Bakeng Duce NX96CW > PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. > http://www.peoplepc.com > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Butcher" <rbutch(at)inreach.com>
Subject: T-88 Glue
Date: Dec 21, 2002
Hello all! For the record, T-88 glue is simply outstanding for making wooden Christmas presents!! Hally Holidays! Ron Butcher ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had...........
Date: Dec 21, 2002
Mike Isn't there a small referance to this dream in your video? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying your time off....and a dream I might have had........... > > Walt----not one to break any FAA regulations, but one night I had this > dream. I had about 15 hours on my Piet > and my girlfriend at the time, who helped me quite a bit here and there > with the project, said she wanted to be my > first passenger. So in this dream I flew the plane to a private grass strip > about 10 minutes away and she met me there > by car. I felt at the time that the plane was quite safe and that I was > comfortable to give a ride on a nice, calm, wind-free, > sunny June day towards sunset. We went around this small airport for > about a 20 minute ride and I landed so she could > drive home to meet me at my home field. Just dreaming of a White > Christmas now though:)))) > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2002
From: "Richard L. Dery" <dickdery(at)teleport.com>
Subject: Re: 2002 EAA plate
clif wrote: > > What if that AC had crashed on that day? > This is an extremely likely outcome of > such a flight. > I visited Kill Devil Hill about 25 years ago. There were historical markers that indicated that the Wright Brothers made four flights that day, and the plane did crash at the conclusion of the fourth flight. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2002
From: Les Schubert <leskarin(at)telus.net>
Subject: new member
After 30 years of playing with old cars the airplane bug has bitten. I have done a lot of work with model t engines including several A-cranked pressure oiled and much modified T engines. My experience is I can get more power and reliability with less weight from this combination. Has anyone else besides Chris Eggsgard ever done this, About 10 years ago I so his Sky Scout at a T tour and I understand he flew it a lot including Oshkosh. Another question, I weigh 230 lbs and am 6'4" tall so it seems to me that building it as a single place is the answer, the problem is my wife is 5'2" and also wants to fly, any suggestions on adjustable seat/controls would be most appreciated as well as recommendations on the right set up for a single place. I read where it is suggested to raise the back of the fuselage to accommodate shoulder harness and this makes real sense to me. I live in Calgary Alberta and would be pleased to meet with any other Piet people in the area to learn from them. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken" <av8or(at)citizen.infi.net>
Subject: new member
Date: Dec 22, 2002
Why don't you just build one for each. Ken av8or(at)citizen.infi.net kring(at)mountainviewdogs.com kring(at)irisweb.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Les Schubert Subject: Pietenpol-List: new member After 30 years of playing with old cars the airplane bug has bitten. I have done a lot of work with model t engines including several A-cranked pressure oiled and much modified T engines. My experience is I can get more power and reliability with less weight from this combination. Has anyone else besides Chris Eggsgard ever done this, About 10 years ago I so his Sky Scout at a T tour and I understand he flew it a lot including Oshkosh. Another question, I weigh 230 lbs and am 6'4" tall so it seems to me that building it as a single place is the answer, the problem is my wife is 5'2" and also wants to fly, any suggestions on adjustable seat/controls would be most appreciated as well as recommendations on the right set up for a single place. I read where it is suggested to raise the back of the fuselage to accommodate shoulder harness and this makes real sense to me. I live in Calgary Alberta and would be pleased to meet with any other Piet people in the area to learn from them. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 2002 EAA plate
Date: Dec 22, 2002
I just returned from a weekend at Kittyhawk (reserving a beach house for next year) and found that Wilbur DID crash the airplane on the first attempt, on December 14th. It took them two days to repair and get ready for the first successful attempt on the 17th. Winds that day were 29 knots! I can think of better weather to make my first flight, but they had promised their sister they would be home for Christmas, so they tried it, made four flights with the fourth resulting in substantial damage to the airframe. It required at least 15 knots of wind to enable them to take off on the short piece of track that they used for a runway. There are a number of people who could claim first flight status, however few if any performed the detailed research and analysis that made the Wright's work so remarkable. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard L. Dery Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 2002 EAA plate clif wrote: > > What if that AC had crashed on that day? > This is an extremely likely outcome of > such a flight. > I visited Kill Devil Hill about 25 years ago. There were historical markers that indicated that the Wright Brothers made four flights that day, and the plane did crash at the conclusion of the fourth flight. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 22, 2002
Gene, The mechanical engineers say here on the piet list that the one piece wing really does not need the cabanes at all except to stabilize the wing when the spars are in compression much like the jury struts stablize the wing struts. The wing area outboard of the wing struts is equal to the area inboard so the up lift outboard causes the inboard to deflect down but this is countered by the inboard lift force up which is countered by....well you know the rest. Look at the wing as a column. If you pull G's, then the straps are trying to move closer to the cabane/wing joint, putting the fuselage sides and the cabanes in compression. Obviously with the increased G's, the wing is lifting that much harder and the fuselage weight is pulling down away from the cabane/wing joint. The wing strut attach points at the wing are trying to move toward one another putting the wing spars between the wing strut attach fittings, wing to wing, in compression. The wing section is fairly thin and the 20:1 max slenderness ratio rule comes into play. The spars become axially loaded columns with a deflection. Think of your leg in a cast vs. having a flexible knee joint. A column with a pinned joint half way along its length has to behave substantially different from a solid column with no joint, especially when it is being deflected. The pinned joint on the multiple piece wing changes things, right? Amateur engineer still learning, chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hubbard, Eugene Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps Chris, I don't see that the one-piece wing can possibly be stiff enough to affect the cabane and lift strut loading ratios. My reasoning is that I have no doubt that I could, with hand pressure, flex the one-piece wing with the cabane struts removed such that the distance between atatch points changes measurably. This is really a crude way of establishing a Young's modulus of maybe a few hundred to a thousand pounds per inch of displacement. Similarly, I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, changing the length of the cabane struts in a similar way. This strongly suggests that any force on the cabane attach points will be taken up by the struts long before the stiffness of the wing itself becomes a factor, and that attach point stresses should be nearly identical between one and three-piece wings. I totally agree with your other comments though, that the bottom of the fuselage is always in tension, and that force on the cabanes, whether tension or compression, is minimal. Gene Hubbard San Diego _ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Shirts available
Date: Dec 22, 2002
Guys, I saw a really nice piet shirt on ebay and it turns out it is one of the locals from Brodhead selling them. Below is some correspondence I received from him. Contact him directly if you want one (or more). The graphics are wonderful. Maybe you can ask for a picture if you are interested. Chris, Shipping 3 shirts would be about 5 bucks. I'd sell three for $40. The shirts are white 100% cotton Hanes shirts. Because they are all cotton, they will shrink a bit. The front art is a small rectangle, about 3.5 inches wide and 2 inches high with PIETENPOL AIRPLANES in red, blue and black that matches the back lettering. I'm at work right now, when I get home, I'll send you a picture of the front if you'd like. I was at Grassroots and had a few shirts with me, but I didn't want to set up a table and sell Pietenpol stuff at the MAAC fly-in and step on any toes of the MAAC people. If you were there, or at Blakesburg, you probably saw my dad's Rearwin Sportster. Let me know if you want any shirts. I have several left and I also have the other Pietenpol type with the different artwork. Where are you from? Bill Weeden billrobin(at)brodnet.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Bell crank location
Date: Dec 22, 2002
Anyone know of a reason why the elevator bell crank couldn't be located on the front of the upright instead of the rear? Happy holidays. Ted Brousseau ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 22, 2002
I won't get into the total of the conversation, but the cabane struts are required for more than is suggested here. The "roll wires" which keep the top wing from moving left and right in relation to the fuselage must have something to pull against, i.e. the cabanes. Gene Rambo ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Gene, > > The mechanical engineers say here on the piet list that the one piece wing > really does not need the cabanes at all except to stabilize the wing when > the spars are in compression much like the jury struts stablize the wing > struts. The wing area outboard of the wing struts is equal to the area > inboard so the up lift outboard causes the inboard to deflect down but this > is countered by the inboard lift force up which is countered by....well you > know the rest. > > Look at the wing as a column. If you pull G's, then the straps are trying > to move closer to the cabane/wing joint, putting the fuselage sides and the > cabanes in compression. Obviously with the increased G's, the wing is > lifting that much harder and the fuselage weight is pulling down away from > the cabane/wing joint. The wing strut attach points at the wing are trying > to move toward one another putting the wing spars between the wing strut > attach fittings, wing to wing, in compression. The wing section is fairly > thin and the 20:1 max slenderness ratio rule comes into play. The spars > become axially loaded columns with a deflection. > > Think of your leg in a cast vs. having a flexible knee joint. A column with > a pinned joint half way along its length has to behave substantially > different from a solid column with no joint, especially when it is being > deflected. > > The pinned joint on the multiple piece wing changes things, right? > > Amateur engineer still learning, > > chris bobka > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hubbard, > Eugene > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > > > Chris, > > I don't see that the one-piece wing can possibly be stiff enough to affect > the cabane and lift strut loading ratios. My reasoning is that I have no > doubt that I could, with hand pressure, flex the one-piece wing with the > cabane struts removed such that the distance between atatch points changes > measurably. This is really a crude way of establishing a Young's modulus of > maybe a few hundred to a thousand pounds per inch of displacement. > Similarly, I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, changing the length of > the cabane struts in a similar way. This strongly suggests that any force > on the cabane attach points will be taken up by the struts long before the > stiffness of the wing itself becomes a factor, and that attach point > stresses should be nearly identical between one and three-piece wings. > > I totally agree with your other comments though, that the bottom of the > fuselage is always in tension, and that force on the cabanes, whether > tension or compression, is minimal. > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > > _ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
I've added a chart of wing loads on a wing from the center to the tip in my picture file on www.mykitplane.com It's #21-second page-Clif Dawson's pics. It's a generic chart using percent of distance out from the center related to the percent of total span load. In other words, the innermost 20% of the wing area handles the load percentage listed in the boxs below it. each % area has three boxes below it representing three different aspect ratios. The top line, AR=6, is the one to use for the piet wing. You can see from this that the outer area of the wing carries considerably less load than the inner. This means that the cabane struts are absolutely necessary! Even on a one piece wing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Gene, > > The mechanical engineers say here on the piet list that the one piece wing > really does not need the cabanes at all except to stabilize the wing when > the spars are in compression much like the jury struts stablize the wing > struts. The wing area outboard of the wing struts is equal to the area > inboard so the up lift outboard causes the inboard to deflect down but this > is countered by the inboard lift force up which is countered by....well you > know the rest. > > Look at the wing as a column. If you pull G's, then the straps are trying > to move closer to the cabane/wing joint, putting the fuselage sides and the > cabanes in compression. Obviously with the increased G's, the wing is > lifting that much harder and the fuselage weight is pulling down away from > the cabane/wing joint. The wing strut attach points at the wing are trying > to move toward one another putting the wing spars between the wing strut > attach fittings, wing to wing, in compression. The wing section is fairly > thin and the 20:1 max slenderness ratio rule comes into play. The spars > become axially loaded columns with a deflection. > > Think of your leg in a cast vs. having a flexible knee joint. A column with > a pinned joint half way along its length has to behave substantially > different from a solid column with no joint, especially when it is being > deflected. > > The pinned joint on the multiple piece wing changes things, right? > > Amateur engineer still learning, > > chris bobka > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hubbard, > Eugene > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > > > Chris, > > I don't see that the one-piece wing can possibly be stiff enough to affect > the cabane and lift strut loading ratios. My reasoning is that I have no > doubt that I could, with hand pressure, flex the one-piece wing with the > cabane struts removed such that the distance between atatch points changes > measurably. This is really a crude way of establishing a Young's modulus of > maybe a few hundred to a thousand pounds per inch of displacement. > Similarly, I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, changing the length of > the cabane struts in a similar way. This strongly suggests that any force > on the cabane attach points will be taken up by the struts long before the > stiffness of the wing itself becomes a factor, and that attach point > stresses should be nearly identical between one and three-piece wings. > > I totally agree with your other comments though, that the bottom of the > fuselage is always in tension, and that force on the cabanes, whether > tension or compression, is minimal. > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > > _ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2002
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
> > >Mike >Isn't there a small referance to this dream in your video? >Dick Dick---actually I did a lot of taxiing with Karen in the front seat and that scene does show that she got in and rode to the north end of the runway with me, then got out. BUT......at about the 15 hour mark I had that dream and actually did take her for a ride:))) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sam Marinucci" <srmjem(at)ezol.com>
Subject: Re: Bell crank location
Date: Dec 23, 2002
>Anyone know of a reason why the elevator bell crank couldn't be located on >the front of the upright instead of the rear? When I was in New Jersey a few years ago I stopped in on Jim Malley and noticed that the elevator bellcrank is mounted on the front of the upright on his award winning Piet. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Subject: Re: Bell crank location
Just a little thought about the bell crank location. Wouldn't matter, front or rear except, the cables to the elevator horns MIGHT want to travel too close to a structure member. One could eliminate this tragedy by completing the tail feathers and mock them up BEFORE decidng on the crank location. Remeber, you build these things backwards. Think the completed plane and build to that. Corky in La waiting for Santa ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "Chris Bobka" , "pietenpol"
Subject: Worthy item for To Fly!
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Doc, A few issues ago in ToFly!, it was discussed that an agreement was made with the PFA when somebody, like maybe Chuck Parnall (?), went to England so that SAA could use articles form their monthly publication. I just received a copy of an article on the Flitzer series of airplanes. It was sent to me by Lynn Williams, its designer. The design has been getting quite a bit of attention in Europe. A chat group is up and running at Flitzer-Builders(at)yahoogroups.com . A plans ditributor has been established in Ontario. His name is Gary Steadman and his email is gsteadman(at)rpcomposites.com . A website exists for the aircraft at www.Flitzer-Aero.com . A wood kit is available and laser cut metal parts are or are nearly available. And aircraft of this design ARE FLYING! Construction is identical to that of the Pietenpol, an SAA favorite. The power is VW and other engines. The appeal is there. Greg Cardinal and I are going nuts over it. It was briefly coverd in a Kitplanes article on the Cranford Rally about 4 years ago. Otherwise, not much is heard about it. The design has its roots in a novel by Lynn Williams that has never been published. Email number one will list the story line of the novel which may be a good intro for the aircraft. Emails number two through six include a copy of the PFA article and other interesting facts about the plans, engine choices, etc. . I contend that Lynn Williams be contacted at flitzer(at)btopenworld.com and permission be sought to publish the article by Tony Morris in To Fly! along with some other intro material that can be gleaned from these emails. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "Chris Bobka" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "pietenpol" , "Chris Bobka"
Subject: Email number one: Flitzer storyline
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Subject: Fw: Happy Christmas Hi Chris, You are quite right! The Flitzer's putative German heritage is a conundrum which I have invented to mystify the public, but really it springs from the stillborn novel, which lurks in my bottom drawer. The Staaken Z-1 Flitzer D692, is the unwitting pawn, the Luftschiffsparasitapparat suspended beneath the cat's cradle of wires slung from the catwalk extending from the gondola of the old Schutte-Lanz airship, the Danzig Freihaven. Operating from the Freeport of Danzig, in 1926, drop tests are carried out beyond the reach of the Inter-Allied Military Control Commission, which was supervising the rest of occupied Germany after WW1. Flitzerlos! Air drop test, Vistula 1926, with Paul Strahle's Halberstadt CL.IV camera ship in attendance. The secret intent is to extend the reconnaissance range of the airship, together with that of its mooring and supply ship, the icebraker 'Eisbar'. The expedition of the Arktisch Vermessungs Abteilung (Arctic Survey Unit) under the aegis of the Anstalt fur Geo-Wissenschaftlich Forschung (Establishment for Geo-Scientific Research) mission is to search for a reported landmass in the Greenland Sea, (mentioned in the ship's logs of old, long lost Nantucket whalers) and to journey north of Jan Mayan Land, to claim a tiny piece of territory for the Weimar Republic, after all of the overseas possessions had been confiscated under the terms of the Versaillesdiktat, after 1919. The plan is to use the rock for the legitimate refuelling of trans-Atlantic airmail seaplanes, but the deeper plan is to build a U-boat base there to control the North Atlantic, for a future war. However, it is all a smoke screen! and the real treasure is Romanoff gold and a $100,000,000 fortune in gold bullion, hijacked from a soviet train, after it had been commandeered in secret by Lenin. That train had been bound for Vladivostock in the aftermath of revolution, but the traincrew was murdered, and the treasure was hidden in the wastes of Siberia. Others now want to use it for the purposes of funding re-armament, the de-stabilisation of buffer territories, and the destruction of Bolshevism....... However, it is also the story of betrayal, espionage, and bitter post-revolutionary Russian genocide of minority native populations, against the backdrop of massed slavery on the hydro-electric and White Sea 5-Year grand projects to industrialise the agrarian Soviet economy. Ultimately, on the brink of WW2, there is an audacious attempt to assassinate Hitler at his Bavarian mountain retreat at Berchtesgaden, using De Havilland DH 88 Comet racers, camouflaged to look like Grigorovitch DG55s (Russian copies of the DH 88) in an attempt to kill the German dictator, or at least force his hand against the East in the face of an apparent breach of the Russo-German pact. Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, is one of the minds behind all of this, with a view to bringing the Ukrainian Govt. in exile into the Axis alliance, to provide dedicated fighting soldiers who'd fight like wolves alongside the Wehrmacht to the gates of Moscow, and avenge the famine engineered by Stalin in the '30s when 10,000 innocent people died, and to provide provisioning for the troops through Ukranian grain production. And ultimately, a conduit to the oil fields of the eastern regions, and world domination. The Flitzer was designed and built partly to star in a movie about all this. One day I will finish it, so you, and your wife, and hopefully many others will read it, and who knows, one day even see the film. Meanwhile, Merry Christmas to you, and I wish you a very happy and successful New Year. Lynn --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "pietenpol" , "Chris Bobka"
Subject: email number 3: Articles on the Flitzer
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Subject: Articles on the Flitzer Hi Chris, Don't despair! The future of the Flitzer range in N. America is in the capable hands of Gary Steadman, whose advertising campaign is just starting, with some results so far. It is our aim to see these agile and evocative miniature classics flying in every State of the Union, before we lay up our glue sticks! It isn't fair that just a handful of people should have had all the fun in flying the only three examples of the Flitzers to take to the air so far. It's so exhilirating that every pilot who has dreamed of time-travelling in an uncompromisingly 'vintage' biplane with an unequalled performance on basic VW power, should be able to participate, and the plans and kits now available are making that possible. An increasing range of options are now becoming available, through the expertise of Gary, who is a qulified stress engineer engaged in analysing the various Flitzer sub-types, with good results so far. I am expecting the latest UK Popular Flying magazine to arrive any time now, which contains an article by Tony Morris on building and flying the Flitzer Z-21A. It also covers the emerging range of sub-types in some detail, and I will email a scanned edition of all this to you. Best regards, Lynn Williams --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "Chris Bobka" , "pietenpol"
Subject: email number 2: Flitzer Article PFA Magazine Jan/Feb
2003
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Tucker; Christian Bobka; dwpullum1(at)swbell.net; e.parrein%tiscali.fr; Eduardo; Gary Steadman; Gerard Killam; Haack, Maj Joseph; Herve Ribet; Ionescu Constantin Serban; james.woolford(at)bt.com; JefRaskin(at)aol.com; Jim Corbett; kwpullum1(at)netzero.com; Marcel; Patrick N Rogers; Patrick Rose; Rob Kennedy; Robert Rogers; Roger John; Steve Smith; zebadiahs(at)hotmail.com Subject: Flitzer Article PFA Magazine Jan/Feb 2003 Hi Flitzerfans, Here's a copy of the recent PFA article on building and flying the Z-21A, by Tony Morris. A list of current projects and development types is also included. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all, Lynn Williams --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Doc Mosher" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "Chris Bobka" , "pietenpol"
Subject: emial number 4: Flitzer email
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Subject: Flitzer email Hi Christian, I just sent you an email which you might be afraid to open as it has as the subject the word 'Gobwing', together with an attachment! It is quite safe and contains engine information, and a picture of the gorgeous Rotec radial motor. The term 'Gobwing' applies to the Flitzer Goblin wing area, and refers to an email forwarded to Gary Steadman, the N. American framchisee, referring to this engine. Just in case you thought it was some virus! Best wishes, Lynn Williams Designer:Flitzer Series --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "pietenpol" , "Chris Bobka"
Subject: email number 5: Gobwing
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Subject: Fw: Gobwing Hi Chris, Regarding your enquiry, engine options apart from the VW would include, among the older type engines currently being installed in Flitzers and their sub-types, the Praga D75 and Salmson AD. 9, but these are not practical alternatives due to their rarity and vintage status. In Nova Scotia, a Z-1 Type S Stummelflitzer will be equipped with a geared Subaru motor, and another Type S is being fitted with a BMW flat twin with a belted redrive (gear) which should deliver 80 hp. with a propeller speed of 2500 rpm, or thereabouts, so propeller efficiency is high. I understand that Gary Steadman www.Flitzer-Aero.com intends to improve on an existing redrive for the basic Type III VW, which might be adaptable for the BMW and others. The HCI radial motor (US) and other small engines such as the Rotax 912 should provide a very good performance with the basic Z-21 Flitzer, as well as the Type S. A further developed Type S is the so-called Type 'R'. which will be optimised for the superb Rotec R 2800 Fireball radial engine of 110 hp (see this page) which, as it weighs 220 lbs, requires some changes to the Type S airframe, including an increase in wing area and other structural modifications to maintain the same aerobatic reserve factors and wing loadings. One of these is under construction in France, where the Praga-powered Type S is also well on the way to completion. Bona fide Flitzer builders can benefit from a 20% discount on the Rotec engine, through Gary Steadman, with full warrantees etc., if certain requirements are fulfilled. In Belgium, a new lightweight helicopter engine, the 'Masquito' motor, of about 2800 cc, is about to be launched as a competitor to the 80-100 hp. Jabiru engines, which are also suitable. The Masquito is apparently better engineered, more powerful and much tougher than the Jab. Virtually any small engine in the 60 -100 hp. category, provided that its installed length is not excessive (which eliminates the relatively heavier A65, C90 and most of the Lycomings) will apply. Even an A65 with the accessories removed from the rear case, and fitted with a lightweight electronic ignition system might work for the Z-21 (with the re-positioned firewall bulkhead), the Type S, or the Z-2 two-seat Flitzer derivative, a prototype of which is now under construction. A later example of this variant might be fitted with the Rotec R2800. Note that Gary Steadman can supply high quality timber kits for the Flitzers, and that laser cut parts will be available for the Z-21 soon from the UK, with the fuselage fittings having been completed so far. Gary also hopes to be in a position to launch a complete kitplane, the Z-1 Type K Goblin, which kit will ultimately also include a new 5-cylinder radial engine, also in kit form. This engine would also retrospectively fit any of the single-seat Flitzer models. I hope this information is helpful. Sincerely, Lynn Williams ---- --- File has not been scanned ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "Lynn Williams" , "Gary Steadman" , "Chris Bobka" , "pietenpol"
Subject: Re: email number 6: [Flitzer-Builders] Re: I am new
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: gsteadmn <gsteadman(at)rpcomposites.com> [mailto:gsteadman(at)rpcomposites.com] Subject: [Flitzer-Builders] Re: I am new --- In Flitzer-Builders(at)yahoogroups.com, "Christian Bobka" <bobka@c...> wrote: > What are engine options other than the VW? > > Chris Bobka > Minneapolis, MN Chris; There are quite a few engine options for the Flitzer Z-21, depending upon your budget and your preferences. Just be careful to keep the weight and balance within specs. With such a small airplane as the Flitzer, even a few pounds can make quite a difference. If you are looking in the direction of certified engines, then the Jabiru 2200 or the Rotax 912 are about the right weight and size. They are pricey, but maybe you can find a used or rebuilt at a good price. Can't use a Continental or Lycoming; they are too heavy. Several of the newer 2 cylinder 4-stroke experimenal engines on the market are possible choices (Werner, HKS, Hexadyne, etc. ) Not many have tried these in a biplane configuration, but if one is careful they should work out well. Be careful that they are not too light!!!; this can have as serious effect on weight and balance as being too heavy. For this reason most of the two-stroke engines are not suitable. Besides, their fuel consumption seriously inhibits the range available. If you want to save some money, there are several auto conversions that are alternatives to the VW. The smaller Subaru conversion can be made to work, but watch the weights carefully. Some people in Europe are considering the BMW motorcycle conversion. For the money, the VW conversion is really the best choice. Besides, the Flitzer Z-21 was designed specifically around this engine, so you know it will work the best. Consider a belt reduction drive on a VW if you are looking for a big jump in horsepower for not a big jump in weight or cost. Some of the larger bore VW's can reach 100 HP output with a reduction drive. There is probably more information and more parts available for the VW conversion than any other suitable engine. If you are a master machinist, you could consider building the smaller HKS Radial Engine from plans. Imagine, your own radial engine biplane ;>)..... Happy hunting in the engine department. Cheers; Gary Steadman Flitzer-Aero To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Flitzer-Builders-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Landing gear reinforcement straps
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Clif, I found your entry on mykitplane.com, but didn't find your chart. I will agree that taking a (nominally) elliptical lift profile into account, the inner half of the wing will be providing more lift than the outer half. Doing the math, I get about 61% if the lift struts attach exactly half way from the cabanes to the wingtips. This assumes that the center section doesn't do anything in particular, probably a good assumption if you have a cutout or a radiator. Assuming that the wing pivots about the lift struts, this puts about 22% of the total load on the cabanes, or around 110 lb on each side at 1000 lb gross. Pick your favorite load ratio between front and rear spars, but we're still not talking large loads here. Gene -----Original Message----- From: clif [mailto:cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps I've added a chart of wing loads on a wing from the center to the tip in my picture file on www.mykitplane.com It's #21-second page-Clif Dawson's pics. It's a generic chart using percent of distance out from the center related to the percent of total span load. In other words, the innermost 20% of the wing area handles the load percentage listed in the boxs below it. each % area has three boxes below it representing three different aspect ratios. The top line, AR=6, is the one to use for the piet wing. You can see from this that the outer area of the wing carries considerably less load than the inner. This means that the cabane struts are absolutely necessary! Even on a one piece wing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Gene, > > The mechanical engineers say here on the piet list that the one piece wing > really does not need the cabanes at all except to stabilize the wing when > the spars are in compression much like the jury struts stablize the wing > struts. The wing area outboard of the wing struts is equal to the area > inboard so the up lift outboard causes the inboard to deflect down but this > is countered by the inboard lift force up which is countered by....well you > know the rest. > > Look at the wing as a column. If you pull G's, then the straps are trying > to move closer to the cabane/wing joint, putting the fuselage sides and the > cabanes in compression. Obviously with the increased G's, the wing is > lifting that much harder and the fuselage weight is pulling down away from > the cabane/wing joint. The wing strut attach points at the wing are trying > to move toward one another putting the wing spars between the wing strut > attach fittings, wing to wing, in compression. The wing section is fairly > thin and the 20:1 max slenderness ratio rule comes into play. The spars > become axially loaded columns with a deflection. > > Think of your leg in a cast vs. having a flexible knee joint. A column with > a pinned joint half way along its length has to behave substantially > different from a solid column with no joint, especially when it is being > deflected. > > The pinned joint on the multiple piece wing changes things, right? > > Amateur engineer still learning, > > chris bobka > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hubbard, > Eugene > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > > > Chris, > > I don't see that the one-piece wing can possibly be stiff enough to affect > the cabane and lift strut loading ratios. My reasoning is that I have no > doubt that I could, with hand pressure, flex the one-piece wing with the > cabane struts removed such that the distance between atatch points changes > measurably. This is really a crude way of establishing a Young's modulus of > maybe a few hundred to a thousand pounds per inch of displacement. > Similarly, I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, changing the length of > the cabane struts in a similar way. This strongly suggests that any force > on the cabane attach points will be taken up by the struts long before the > stiffness of the wing itself becomes a factor, and that attach point > stresses should be nearly identical between one and three-piece wings. > > I totally agree with your other comments though, that the bottom of the > fuselage is always in tension, and that force on the cabanes, whether > tension or compression, is minimal. > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > > _ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Flitzer attachments
Date: Dec 23, 2002
If anybody wants the Flitzer attachments, let me know and I will send them to you. This plane is built exactly like the piet and has the same appeal. How would an A powered one look? chris bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: mike impedance
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Does anyone know the impedance of the microphone used in general aviation headsets? I want to hook one up to use in the mortorcycle helmet I use in my ultralight. Motorcycle headset microphones will not work. I called the manufacturer of my radio (Sportys) and they will not tell me. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2002
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: mike impedance
Wayne, I know there is a homebuilt electronic project for this, the parts are bought from Radio Shack and fitted inside a photo roll plastic box... I read it some weeks ago, but as the electronic projects are not my choise, I dont remember what I did with it. It can be done easyly. In fact was designed to use the home Stereo headsets for a pasenger (in fact no microphone) to hear the radio and at the same time as ear protection. Was in another list, I will ask around. Saludos Gary Gower --- Wayne McIntosh wrote: > > > Does anyone know the impedance of the microphone used in general > aviation headsets? I want to hook one up to use in the mortorcycle > helmet I use in my ultralight. Motorcycle headset microphones will > not work. I called the manufacturer of my radio (Sportys) and they > will not tell me. > Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN > > > > _-> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: mike impedance
Try RST Engineering I think it is http://www.rst-eng.com Kirk > >Wayne, > >I know there is a homebuilt electronic project for this, the parts are >bought from Radio Shack and fitted inside a photo roll plastic box... > >I read it some weeks ago, but as the electronic projects are not my >choise, I dont remember what I did with it. It can be done easyly. > >In fact was designed to use the home Stereo headsets for a pasenger (in >fact no microphone) to hear the radio and at the same time as ear >protection. Was in another list, I will ask around. > >Saludos >Gary Gower > >--- Wayne McIntosh wrote: >> >> >> Does anyone know the impedance of the microphone used in general >> aviation headsets? I want to hook one up to use in the mortorcycle >> helmet I use in my ultralight. Motorcycle headset microphones will >> not work. I called the manufacturer of my radio (Sportys) and they >> will not tell me. >> Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN >> >> >> >> _-> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal"
Subject: FW: Worthy item for To Fly!
Date: Dec 23, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Subject: Re: Worthy item for To Fly! Hi Guys, Thanks for the emails and suggestions, Chris. Note I've made a typographical mistake on the number of innocents who died of famine in Ukraine. That should be ten million (10,000,000) not 10,000! By all means use whatever I've sent you in any article. It'll all help the cause! Note that the construction of the Flitzers is not identical to the Pietenpol, although there are similarities. It was the old Flitzer 'Type 1' tailplane and fin/rudder of the prototype Z-1 (Z-21) which was structurally almost identical to the Piet. Later versions are simplified and further stiffened, while the basic Z-21 fuselage is entirely ply-covered, unike the Piet's, although several of the sub-types do have fabric-covered rear-fuselages. Both the early and the later versions of the various tailgroups are also shown on the drawings, for reference, being clearly marked, with explanations of their evolution included. Indeed one sheet shows almost the whole evolution of the Z-series to date. I attach another picture of a Flitzer practice drop from Dz.1 over the River Vistula, in 'January 1926'. The essence of the Flitzer is a lightweight, strong, and simple design philosophy, which was the hallmark of great lightplane designs, like Jack D. Irwin's Meteorplanes, the Lincoln Sport, and others that were the triggers. With that tradition, comes the retro-look, which befits this unashamed contemporary 'classic', and a lightness of control, together with stability and easy manoeuvrability, which makes you want to just go and fly it again and again! Cheers, Lynn Williams PS. I can scan you other articles, if you'd like. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: mike impedance
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Ask Mel Sorton in West Lafayette. Tell him Cy sent you. 765-743-2936 Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: mike impedance > > Does anyone know the impedance of the microphone used in general aviation headsets? I want to hook one up to use in the mortorcycle helmet I use in my ultralight. Motorcycle headset microphones will not work. I called the manufacturer of my radio (Sportys) and they will not tell me. > Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: I'm a little bugged
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Walter, Your Builders log can be only a day's date and a brief comment of what was done that day. Do not go into details. It is not necessary. You can take your pictures and use them to refresh yourself and keep it very brief. The purpose of the log is to show that YOU did the work and not a hired gun. I plans built an RV-3 and kit built an RV-6 and this is what I did for the DAR inspection. Good luck and Merry Christmas. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged > > Walter, > > Think of it this way: Your photos aren't "as good as a log" they ARE a log. > I'm sure you've arranged them sequentially, and put them in an album. They > show what you did, and when you did it. What else can they ask for? > > Gene Hubbard > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: mike impedance
Date: Dec 23, 2002
Cy, Chris, & Gary Thanks I have e-mailed RST and Mel was not home, I will call after Christmas. Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: mike impedance > > Ask Mel Sorton in West Lafayette. Tell him Cy sent you. 765-743-2936 > > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org > > Always looking for articles for the Experimenter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com> > To: ; ; > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: mike impedance > > > > > > > Does anyone know the impedance of the microphone used in general aviation > headsets? I want to hook one up to use in the mortorcycle helmet I use in my > ultralight. Motorcycle headset microphones will not work. I called the > manufacturer of my radio (Sportys) and they will not tell me. > > Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps
For some strange reason I took the one piece, center to strut distance as the number for the 3 piece, makes a big difference. Look twice, calc. once to parody the prime directive. So the load difference is quite small. Now about that 60 degree bank...and gust loads, etc.? The chart pic is on the second page of my picture file. I just checked, it's there. Down to the bottom and press "next 20". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > > Clif, > > I found your entry on mykitplane.com, but didn't find your chart. I will > agree that taking a (nominally) elliptical lift profile into account, the > inner half of the wing will be providing more lift than the outer half. > Doing the math, I get about 61% if the lift struts attach exactly half way > from the cabanes to the wingtips. This assumes that the center section > doesn't do anything in particular, probably a good assumption if you have a > cutout or a radiator. > > Assuming that the wing pivots about the lift struts, this puts about 22% of > the total load on the cabanes, or around 110 lb on each side at 1000 lb > gross. Pick your favorite load ratio between front and rear spars, but > we're still not talking large loads here. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2002
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: mike impedance
Sorry I wasn't a bit more specific with the RST link. If you go to the rst-eng site and then click on the Articles link, there is a .pdf file titled $10 Headset or something like it. That article shows the little inpedence changer in a photo canister that Gary was talking about. It is worth checking out the other articles and the rest of the site. There are lots of greats things that Jim has done. Merry Christmas Kirk -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Bell crank location
Date: Dec 24, 2002
Corky, Now you tell me!!! That might explain why I have spent more time lately tearing things apart than moving forward. Just kidding. You are so right. If you want to make a slight change it is amazing how many other things it affects. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bell crank location > > Just a little thought about the bell crank location. Wouldn't matter, front > or rear except, the cables to the elevator horns MIGHT want to travel too > close to a structure member. One could eliminate this tragedy by completing > the tail feathers and mock them up BEFORE decidng on the crank location. > Remeber, you build these things backwards. Think the completed plane and > build to that. > Corky in La waiting for Santa ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: mike performance
Date: Dec 24, 2002
Since we are on the the subject of mikes I would like to ask if anyone has any experience with mikes in open cockpits. I have been flying with the David Clark dynamic mike and it is the best I have found so far. But, it is not as good at eliminating background noise as I would hope for. I am planning on buying a new one when I finish the Piet this spring (hope, hope) and am looking for recommendations. Thanks, Ted ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 24, 2002
Subject: Re: Bell crank location
Mr Ted, I will admit to a slight change in my crank. I raised it, I don't remember how much, in an attempt to eliminate the cable drag on the horiz stab while the a/c is at rest. It worked. I think I mentioned on this list that if I had it to do over I would consider a torque tube from the column to the crank to reduce the friction of cables and pulleys. Corky in La still waiting for that whiskered man ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: refueling from cans
Date: Dec 24, 2002
Having served in the Marine Corps for six years, I agree with this statement. I was assigned to an air support section in charge of generators that kept a surface to air missile site online. I was in charge of the generator section in particular, and we always used a ground strap attachment before filling any piece of equipment. It was diesel, and not likely to to ignite from a static discharge, but used for safety none the less. My two cents..... Doug Blackburn Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom" <caroll(at)mninter.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans > > The problem with static charges causing a fire has been dealt with by the > Army many years ago. They have to solider filling up the truck connect a > ground strap (conductive cable to dissipate static) from the truck to > earth-n-ground or the can if a can is being used before contact is made. At > least they did when I was in the service. > Although less likely a static charge can be generated in humid climates > depending the type of clothing and shoes the person is wearing. > I don't know why the oil industry has not required something like that a > ground strap at a gas station. Probably because of the cost. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: mike performance
This isn't mikes but you reminded me of it so I'm throwing it in as it's related and maybe someone knows more details about it. Lastyear at Arlington I caught a discussion between a couple of guys at the food tables. Apparently there's a source for under helmet earphones that are molded in by either making a mold of the inside of your ear or just pouring in the casting material. The phones are molded into the material. Their main business is hearing aids but this one guy got them to use AC units instead. This is very expensive from what I could gather. I'm sure there are many of these hearing aid places around the country. The guys up and left while still dicussing it so that's all I heard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: mike performance > > Since we are on the the subject of mikes I would like to ask if anyone has > any experience with mikes in open cockpits. > > I have been flying with the David Clark dynamic mike and it is the best I > have found so far. But, it is not as good at eliminating background noise > as I would hope for. > > I am planning on buying a new one when I finish the Piet this spring (hope, > hope) and am looking for recommendations. > > Thanks, > > Ted > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 25, 2002
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas (snow/thunder storm)
Walt, I can't believe you are not up in your Piet with a radio trying to help all that yankee snarled traffic get untangled down thar on that Garden State Pkwy. Doesn't your public service pride come thru no matter what. Corky in beautiful, sunny Louisiana waiting for my snowball By the way, A very happy and Mary Christmas to all Pieter families from Isabelle and Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 2002
From: mark deacon <wrenchspinner1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: mike performance
--- clif wrote: > > > This isn't mikes but you reminded me of > it so I'm throwing it in as it's related and > maybe someone knows more details > about it. I remember one year at Oshkosh in one of the vendor buildings there was a company that was selling just such a system. But of course since I can hardly remember what I had for breakfast their name eludes me. Just another piece to the puzzle. Mark Deacon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: Shirts available
Date: Dec 26, 2002
12/26/2002 08:25:23 AM Hi guys I just ( a few weeks back) bought one of those shirts from Bill. It is a very nice shirt, and Bill is super to deal with. "Christian Bobka" (at)matronics.com on 12/22/2002 02:33:45 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Shirts available Guys, I saw a really nice piet shirt on ebay and it turns out it is one of the locals from Brodhead selling them. Below is some correspondence I received from him. Contact him directly if you want one (or more). The graphics are wonderful. Maybe you can ask for a picture if you are interested. Chris, Shipping 3 shirts would be about 5 bucks. I'd sell three for $40. The shirts are white 100% cotton Hanes shirts. Because they are all cotton, they will shrink a bit. The front art is a small rectangle, about 3.5 inches wide and 2 inches high with PIETENPOL AIRPLANES in red, blue and black that matches the back lettering. I'm at work right now, when I get home, I'll send you a picture of the front if you'd like. I was at Grassroots and had a few shirts with me, but I didn't want to set up a table and sell Pietenpol stuff at the MAAC fly-in and step on any toes of the MAAC people. If you were there, or at Blakesburg, you probably saw my dad's Rearwin Sportster. Let me know if you want any shirts. I have several left and I also have the other Pietenpol type with the different artwork. Where are you from? Bill Weeden billrobin(at)brodnet.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2002
Subject:
From: catdesigns(at)juno.com
This is the type of molded ear plugs/ communication devise I am aware of... http://www.pantherelectronics.com/literature/Reprints/AOPA%20REPRINT.pdf When I went for a ride/lesson in a Stearman it was very hard to hear the instructor with conventional headsets. Voice activated microphones did not work so we used a push button intercom and such. After I got back on the ground I decided when I get the plane built I will invest in some of these molded ear type things. This is not an endoursment and I have never used it nor even see it in person. Chris Sacramento, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "L&B Hickman" <funflyer(at)wirefire.com>
Subject: flight similator for air camper
Date: Dec 26, 2002
I was reading some back messages in piet archives and found your message, March 99, on piet for flight sim 98. I have MS flight sim 98. Can you tell me where I can download the piet sim for it? Do I need to buy anything else to use it? I tried this site, also mentioned http://www.flightsimmers.net/tommy/planes.htm and got an administrator page to build websites. I don't think that's what I want. In searching the archives, I only find reference to the piet sim, but only this reference to tell me how to get it, which at this later date is no longer available. I joined the piet list in Aug after going to Brodhead. Don't have much to contribute to the chat, but learning a lot. I do have a piet in progress, hope to be flying it this summer. Help is always appreciated. Thanks, Linzy funflyer(at)wirefire.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2002
From: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: flight similator for air camper
I don't know about MS Flight Sim, but there is an Aircamper aircraft for X-plane. You can download the X-plane demo at http://www.X-plane.com and the aircraft at http://www.x-plane.org Kirk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: sandblaster articles
Date: Dec 26, 2002
Skip, John d. and Ron b. I am still working on the final installment of the sandblaster series of articles so please sit tight another week or two. thanks. Chris Bobka ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: struts, headsets, Wright bros, Flitzer plans
Date: Dec 26, 2002
Just three quick things that I have gleaned from scanning the entries from the past several days: 1. The lift struts on the Piet don't (or shouldn't) do anything during flight other than create drag. It's the crossed wires that carry the load, the struts just keep the wings from moving DOWNWARD during landings or other negative G load activities. 2. Ted B. take a look at the Panther Electronics website if you feel you just absolutely can't fly your Piet without radio communications. 3. Try to get a copy of "History By Contract" to find out how the Wright Bros made sure they were credited as being the "first". 4. I have a set of Flitzer plans (I thought this was a Pietenpol site?) that I would GLADLY part with. There are so many different revisions for so many of the parts that it's absolutely baffling to try to make any sense out of. Mr. Williams would be well served IMHO to take out all the wordiness and minute details of the various evolutions and just print up some simple plans that one could build an airplane from. And no, it's not at all built like a Piet. I would guess the parts count is at least three times as great. HO-HO-HO Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Blast it questions......
Date: Dec 27, 2002
Jim, I am looking at your video and the box. Just need to get to the PO. I bought my sand at Northern but up here where their HQ is. You probably went to the one in Richardson on Arapaho. You need to go to a place called Clemtex, Inc. last known address to me is 4770 Gretna, Dallas TX 75207 214 631 0584. They are at the Motor Street exit south off of I35E near Industrial Blvd./Irving Blvd. Look in your Mapsco. You get #5 sand, remember by five fingers on your hand! They might be reluctant to sell it to you if you say you are sandblasting so if they ask, say it is for the ashtrays in the office building where you work. It is the same stuff. It should be 5 or 6 bucks for 50 lbs and get two bags or so. They have all sorts of other stuff. If you are not derusting and descaling, you might consider glass beads for more money. You will also need to get your "gun" there. As a matter of fact, I might have you be my go between as I can't find a source up here. I might have you pick some up for others on the piet list that need them, prepaid of course. The gun you want is stock number 10107. Gun Ass'y Complete is what it says on my receipt from 4/2/93. Can't make out the manufacturer but looks like CIGWK. Price was 54.50 plus tax. I will send a picture later today of it so you can walk in with the picture. You want to get the right gun. It is expensive because it has a CARBIDE venturi but mine has been in good use for 9 years now and shows no wear. It is imperative you have this gun. No ceramics here. If you use the wrong gun, it just won't work right after an hours use. I will measure the orifice size of my gun and send youthat when I send a photo. You do not want a bigger orifice, same size is ok, but smaller is probably better. Better to retain your pressure and cover a little less ground. As far as the vacuum, you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. It will be so cloudy after a minute that you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If no vacuum then it will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will contract silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the vacuum. Better yet, use an extra lung vacuum hose and put the vacuum outside as even the filter on the vauum won't trap all the fines. You must use a vacuum. I hope you took pictures that we can share with everybody. I would not mind having some to post on the EAA website. chris -----Original Message----- From: jim_markle(at)mindspring.com [mailto:jim_markle(at)mindspring.com] Subject: Blast it questions...... You said in one of the Chapter 25 articles that sand was cheap. I think it was in reference to the fact that your vac was sucking too much sand out... 1. What do you mean cheap? I looked at Northern Tools and a gallon of that stuff is $18. Are you using ordinary fine/clean sand found at Home Depot etc? 2. What purpose does the vac actually serve? Is it there just to keep the air clean whle the sand is being recycled in the "close to" airtight chamber? Looks that way to me....maybe some dust is generated in the process? (Maybe if I had ever done this before I would understand these things.....) Thanks! Jim in Plano.......the box is done, the hopper is done...all I need to to is bend the conduit and cut the round and rectangular holes in the box and attach legs......this is a VERY cool project!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: struts, headsets, Wright bros, Flitzer plans
Date: Dec 27, 2002
Larry, The lift struts will also keep the outer panels of the wing from twisting during flight. Now let's see if we we're really willing to tighten the wires enough to make this true. Assume a gross weight of 1000 lb, lift strut angle of 30 degrees with respect to the wing, all of the force on the forward spar, and 4 g loading. All reasonable numbers for the Piet. If we prestress the cables to keep the struts in compression, the cables need to have TWO TONS of preload EACH. That's 500 lb load to a side, times 4g, divided by sin(30)= 0.5 to get the resultant of the vertical load and the spanwise force that we have to live with. As I remember, the nominal load capacity of a 1/8 inch cable is about 2000 lb, but I don't have my AS&S book here. At any rate, it sure sounds like we'll be depending on some tension strength from the lift struts, at least at the high end of the design load. If we back off and only ask that the struts be in tension during "normal" flight--bank angle < 60 degrees, we're down to "only" 2000 lb preload. Level flight is 1000 lb. My suspicion is that anyone who tightens the wires until they "feel right" isn't going to put anywhere near that much tension on them, and that the struts are going to carry most of the load during all flight phases. Gene Hubbard San Diego -----Original Message----- From: LAWRENCE WILLIAMS [mailto:lnawms(at)msn.com] Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts, headsets, Wright bros, Flitzer plans Just three quick things that I have gleaned from scanning the entries from the past several days: 1. The lift struts on the Piet don't (or shouldn't) do anything during flight other than create drag. It's the crossed wires that carry the load, the struts just keep the wings from moving DOWNWARD during landings or other negative G load activities. 2. Ted B. take a look at the Panther Electronics website if you feel you just absolutely can't fly your Piet without radio communications. 3. Try to get a copy of "History By Contract" to find out how the Wright Bros made sure they were credited as being the "first". 4. I have a set of Flitzer plans (I thought this was a Pietenpol site?) that I would GLADLY part with. There are so many different revisions for so many of the parts that it's absolutely baffling to try to make any sense out of. Mr. Williams would be well served IMHO to take out all the wordiness and minute details of the various evolutions and just print up some simple plans that one could build an airplane from. And no, it's not at all built like a Piet. I would guess the parts count is at least three times as great. HO-HO-HO Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Blast it questions......
Date: Dec 27, 2002
You could check out your local "Harbor Freight" store -- I remember seeing boxes of sand there by their blast cabinets -- don't remember the price 'cause I wasn't looking for more sand -- I get mine from the "Sand Dune" exhibit we have at our museum -- it gets changed periodically after it starts to look gray from the Alum. fan blades wearing away!! (it's a sealed box with a fan to provide the "wind" to drift the sand) Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > > Jim, > > I am looking at your video and the box. Just need to get to the PO. > > I bought my sand at Northern but up here where their HQ is. You probably > went to the one in Richardson on Arapaho. You need to go to a place called > Clemtex, Inc. last known address to me is 4770 Gretna, Dallas TX 75207 214 > 631 0584. They are at the Motor Street exit south off of I35E near > Industrial Blvd./Irving Blvd. Look in your Mapsco. > > You get #5 sand, remember by five fingers on your hand! They might be > reluctant to sell it to you if you say you are sandblasting so if they ask, > say it is for the ashtrays in the office building where you work. It is the > same stuff. It should be 5 or 6 bucks for 50 lbs and get two bags or so. > They have all sorts of other stuff. If you are not derusting and descaling, > you might consider glass beads for more money. > > You will also need to get your "gun" there. As a matter of fact, I might > have you be my go between as I can't find a source up here. I might have > you pick some up for others on the piet list that need them, prepaid of > course. > > The gun you want is stock number 10107. Gun Ass'y Complete is what it says > on my receipt from 4/2/93. Can't make out the manufacturer but looks like > CIGWK. Price was 54.50 plus tax. I will send a picture later today of it > so you can walk in with the picture. > > You want to get the right gun. It is expensive because it has a CARBIDE > venturi but mine has been in good use for 9 years now and shows no wear. It > is imperative you have this gun. No ceramics here. If you use the wrong > gun, it just won't work right after an hours use. I will measure the > orifice size of my gun and send youthat when I send a photo. You do not > want a bigger orifice, same size is ok, but smaller is probably better. > Better to retain your pressure and cover a little less ground. > > As far as the vacuum, you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. > It will be so cloudy after a minute that you won't be able to see your hand > in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at > 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If no vacuum > then it will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage > and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will contract > silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative > pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the > vacuum. Better yet, use an extra lung vacuum hose and put the vacuum > outside as even the filter on the vauum won't trap all the fines. > > You must use a vacuum. > > I hope you took pictures that we can share with everybody. I would not mind > having some to post on the EAA website. > > chris > -----Original Message----- > From: jim_markle(at)mindspring.com [mailto:jim_markle(at)mindspring.com] > To: bobka(at)charter.net > Subject: Blast it questions...... > > > You said in one of the Chapter 25 articles that sand was cheap. I think it > was in reference to the fact that your vac was sucking too much sand out... > > 1. What do you mean cheap? I looked at Northern Tools and a gallon of that > stuff is $18. Are you using ordinary fine/clean sand found at Home Depot > etc? > > 2. What purpose does the vac actually serve? Is it there just to keep the > air clean whle the sand is being recycled in the "close to" airtight > chamber? Looks that way to me....maybe some dust is generated in the > process? (Maybe if I had ever done this before I would understand these > things.....) > > Thanks! > > Jim in Plano.......the box is done, the hopper is done...all I need to to is > bend the conduit and cut the round and rectangular holes in the box and > attach legs......this is a VERY cool project!!! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: engine choices
Date: Dec 26, 2002
Del, I for one would attend if it were the first of the week of Brodhead. I would not attend it if it coincided with Brodhead. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices > > > There is always a 'Corvair College' every Memorial > > Day weekend at William's > > hangar near Daytona Beach - a little far for those > > of you in the western > > half of the country, I know, but it is an option. I > > hope to be there this > > year or next. > > I am hoping to put one together in the wisconsin area > around the time of oshkosh and brodhead get togethers. > would anybody be interested in having at brodhead > during the pietenpol flyin? If the people that host > the brodhead flyin and william are willing. > Del > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Blast it questions......
Date: Dec 27, 2002
You could also try a larger swimming pool dealer. I carry Red Flint Granite sand in my shop.(.45-.55 mm) It is rather aggresive but doesn't dust nearly as much as white silica sands. It really depends on the nozzel you are using. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > > You could check out your local "Harbor Freight" store -- I remember seeing > boxes of sand there by their blast cabinets -- don't remember the price > 'cause I wasn't looking for more sand -- I get mine from the "Sand Dune" > exhibit we have at our museum -- it gets changed periodically after it > starts to look gray from the Alum. fan blades wearing away!! (it's a sealed > box with a fan to provide the "wind" to drift the sand) > > Mike C. > Pretty Prairie, KS > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net> > To: ; "pietenpol" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > > > > > > > Jim, > > > > I am looking at your video and the box. Just need to get to the PO. > > > > I bought my sand at Northern but up here where their HQ is. You probably > > went to the one in Richardson on Arapaho. You need to go to a place > called > > Clemtex, Inc. last known address to me is 4770 Gretna, Dallas TX 75207 214 > > 631 0584. They are at the Motor Street exit south off of I35E near > > Industrial Blvd./Irving Blvd. Look in your Mapsco. > > > > You get #5 sand, remember by five fingers on your hand! They might be > > reluctant to sell it to you if you say you are sandblasting so if they > ask, > > say it is for the ashtrays in the office building where you work. It is > the > > same stuff. It should be 5 or 6 bucks for 50 lbs and get two bags or so. > > They have all sorts of other stuff. If you are not derusting and > descaling, > > you might consider glass beads for more money. > > > > You will also need to get your "gun" there. As a matter of fact, I might > > have you be my go between as I can't find a source up here. I might have > > you pick some up for others on the piet list that need them, prepaid of > > course. > > > > The gun you want is stock number 10107. Gun Ass'y Complete is what it > says > > on my receipt from 4/2/93. Can't make out the manufacturer but looks like > > CIGWK. Price was 54.50 plus tax. I will send a picture later today of it > > so you can walk in with the picture. > > > > You want to get the right gun. It is expensive because it has a CARBIDE > > venturi but mine has been in good use for 9 years now and shows no wear. > It > > is imperative you have this gun. No ceramics here. If you use the wrong > > gun, it just won't work right after an hours use. I will measure the > > orifice size of my gun and send youthat when I send a photo. You do not > > want a bigger orifice, same size is ok, but smaller is probably better. > > Better to retain your pressure and cover a little less ground. > > > > As far as the vacuum, you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. > > It will be so cloudy after a minute that you won't be able to see your > hand > > in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at > > 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If no > vacuum > > then it will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage > > and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will > contract > > silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative > > pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the > > vacuum. Better yet, use an extra lung vacuum hose and put the vacuum > > outside as even the filter on the vauum won't trap all the fines. > > > > You must use a vacuum. > > > > I hope you took pictures that we can share with everybody. I would not > mind > > having some to post on the EAA website. > > > > chris > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jim_markle(at)mindspring.com [mailto:jim_markle(at)mindspring.com] > > To: bobka(at)charter.net > > Subject: Blast it questions...... > > > > > > You said in one of the Chapter 25 articles that sand was cheap. I think > it > > was in reference to the fact that your vac was sucking too much sand > out... > > > > 1. What do you mean cheap? I looked at Northern Tools and a gallon of > that > > stuff is $18. Are you using ordinary fine/clean sand found at Home Depot > > etc? > > > > 2. What purpose does the vac actually serve? Is it there just to keep the > > air clean whle the sand is being recycled in the "close to" airtight > > chamber? Looks that way to me....maybe some dust is generated in the > > process? (Maybe if I had ever done this before I would understand these > > things.....) > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim in Plano.......the box is done, the hopper is done...all I need to to > is > > bend the conduit and cut the round and rectangular holes in the box and > > attach legs......this is a VERY cool project!!! > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2002
From: clif <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: RE: Blast it questions......
Does anyone know about " green sand "? I haven't used it but I've been told that there is considerably less danger of lung damage if the dust is inhaled. After all, accidents can and do happen no matter how well you protect yourself. ----- Original Message ----- > > You could also try a larger swimming pool dealer. I carry Red Flint Granite > sand in my shop.(.45-.55 mm) It is rather aggresive but doesn't dust nearly > as much as white silica sands. It really depends on the nozzel you are > using. > Dick======================================================================= > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
"Greg Cardinal" , "pietenpol"
Subject: FW: Corvair Flitzers
Date: Dec 28, 2002
-----Original Message----- From: Lynn Williams [mailto:flitzer(at)btopenworld.com] Subject: Fw: Corvair Flitzers Hi Matt, I forgot to include the dimension from the firewall to the propeller for the Z-21. Because propeller thicknesses can vary, I have revised part of the email concerning installed lengths on the Z-21 and Z-2 to focus on the dimension from the firewall front face to the rear face of the propeller drive plate (on the end of the crankshaft) in both cases. The relevant passages are in red, to save you reading through all the email again! Cheers, Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynn Williams Subject: Corvair Flitzers > Lynn Please direguard previouse message about resending some email. > > You seem to hae conflicting words between your notes on the corvair > reguarding the CG of the corvair. How far would a the bcak of a VW > propeller be from the S-2 Fire wall? Hi Matt, The reason that I am a bit vague about the Corvair installation (for the Z-2, note the aeroplanes are known as Z-types, from Zeppelin Werfthalle, Staaken bei Berlin, which are the old airship repair sheds at Staaken, where, in my novel begins....... the Flitzer D692 is actually the 'star' of the first part of my novel set in 1926, and is a Luftschiffparasitgerate or airship parasite equipment for extending the reconnaissance range of an airship/aircraft combination for an expedition to search for a landmass in the Greenland Sea for a trans-Atlantic refuelling base for LuftpostSeeflugzeuge, but also for a U-boat base to control the North Atlantic for a future war......phew!) .. is that I had not previously considered the Corvair, as I felt it was too heavy and too long. Although a variant of the Z-1 Type S Stummelflitzer, the Type R, is intended for the Rotec radial (at 220 lbs. weight) the Type R has its lower wing enlarged (to match the upper) and moved forward (to reposition the mean CP) thereby increasing spar depth, and wing area, to cope with the additional weight of the installation, and maintain the approximately the same wing loading and aerobatic reserve factors. Fitting the longer Corvair to the Z-2 will potentially extend the nose to the point where the tail volume is compromised, and the whole geometry would need to be revised. However, if leg room in the forward 'pit were not an issue, nor the volume for fuel containment within the fuselage tank bay, then the Corvair would be an ideal motor. It is possibly easier to fit a Corvair into the Z-1, because there is potential for moving the firewall further aft, while retaining sufficient room for pedal travel - for shorter pilots. However, as they are designed, the Flitzer family (most of them anyway - except possibly the smaller Goblin and Meteor) will accommodate a 6'6" pilot comfortably - which is not something achievable with many very small biplanes! To maintain this feature and fit a Corvair into an unmodified Flitzer type is a tall order. However, if personal requirements allow, then any Flitzer variant could, in principle, be adapted to handle a longer crankcase and weight installation combination, even if, for example, the upper wing were moved forward slightly more on a raked cabane assembly. But for the basic types, there is enough variation and design work involved in just proving and certificating the present plethora of Z-types, in their quite disparate available versions! Finally, on this, note that the Goblin differs from the other Flitzers in several respects, being perhaps the greatest simplification of the entire range from several aspects - one of which is the elimination of the standard engine mount, and a reversion to the simple 'stand-off' system of four, individual, short steel-tubes with big washer-flange weldments at their ends, extending from vertical beech or DF struts built into the reinforced firewall bulkhead, as on the Taylor Monoplane, etc. Conceivably this might be a method by which, in combination with a slight rearward movement of the firewall, the Corvair could be installed without it generating too many pound/inches forward of the CG. However, the thought of cantilevering the longer, heavier Corvair off the centroid of the bulkhead, without the benefit of a steel spider-truss attached near the longerons, (which is the convention) leaves me in a cold sweat! Especially if aerobatics were to be contemplated. Perhaps Gary could answer this? The dimension from the rear of the propeller drive plate to the front face of the firewall on the Z-2 is actually 23" and without having seen a Corvair, perhaps it would be possible after all to install this motor on a shortened tubular mount, with just an inch or two stolen by moving the firewall aft(?). The VW installed length, for comparison, is 20.5". Regarding the wing rib chords for the Z-2: these are 42" top and bottom, the early version used a 39" chord lower wing, but area has been maximised in the final drawings. The wing panels for the Z-2 are yet to be drawn, so I haven't optimised the spar sizing yet nor decided whether the upper rear spars need to be 'full profile depth', (although the panels are otherwise identical). They probably will be, full depth because this is just as convenient when there are four ailerons involved. Although the prototype Flitzer Z-1 is equipped with two SR4 magnetos, the two Z-21As currently flying have the Leburg electronic ignition system, which has proved 100% reliable, and takes some of the lottery aspect out of hot-starting. Lastly, looking at the longer Praga-engined Stummelflitzer nose, it might be possible to install a Corvair in a virtually unmodified Z-1 Type S, or even better into the Type R with the bigger lower wing, and have a superbly-performing aerobatic single seater, with its four balanced ailerons and high RFs. Best regards, Lynn attery? > > Matt > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Blast it questions......
Date: Dec 28, 2002
I have heard Soda Bicarb beads refered to as "green" sand. I have seen ads for Soda Blasting in the papers for old car restoration. Yes it is considerably less dangerous healthwise but also beware of going to the beach on a windy day. Free silica is present in all sand and taking proper precautions will take the risk We sand blast swimming pools for repainting. When working indoors we cover the pool with poly and install ducting fans for intake and exhaust air and anyone in the work area is in protective gear with fresh filtered air in helmet. I dont think using a small blasting cabinet poses any real risk as long as you vacuum as earlier discussed, or let the dust settle before opening. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "clif" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > > Does anyone know about " green sand "? > I haven't used it but I've been told that > there is considerably less danger of > lung damage if the dust is inhaled. After > all, accidents can and do happen no > matter how well you protect yourself. > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > You could also try a larger swimming pool dealer. I carry Red Flint > Granite > > sand in my shop.(.45-.55 mm) It is rather aggresive but doesn't dust > nearly > > as much as white silica sands. It really depends on the nozzel you are > > using. > > > Dick======================================================================= > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2002
From: jim_markle(at)mindspring.com
Subject: Completed sandblaster pictues....
Pics of my completed sandblaster. Mostly based on Chris Bobka's design (THANKS VERY MUCH CHRIS!) but I wandered off the plans in a few places..... VERY small effort...TREMENDOUS result!! Thanks again Chris!!! Jim in Plano,TX ********* VIEW PICTURES Jim Markle is sharing pictures with you using Shutterfly, the leading online photo service. To view Jim Markle's pictures at Shutterfly, simply go to: http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b3322ee6e4b7 (If you can't click on this link, try copying and pasting it into your web browser.) NEED HELP? If you have any questions about this message, please use our convenient Customer Service contact form at: http://www.shutterfly.com/support/form8.jsp ************************************* Shutterfly Where your pictures live http://www.shutterfly.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: planning your panel layout
Date: Dec 30, 2002
With as large a panel as the Pietenpol has, and as complicated as the typical Pietenpol panel is, I'm surprised that no one has taken the time to play with the panel planner at http://www.epanelbuilder.com/ . You go down the page to "Click here to start building your panel", then on the next page you pull down the prototype to start building by dragging and dropping things onto the panel. But no one's yet started a Piet panel. Actually, the Loehle 5151 is probably pretty close (22" wide, 12" tall), as are the Skybolt and Pitts. Maybe I'll send them a CAD outline of a typical Piet panel... (or maybe DJ already has one?) Of course I'm joking about the complexity of the typical Piet panel, but most folks do try a little dreaming about how to fit everything they'd like to have on the panel. In our case (Piet), we have the added factor of having to miss those crossed cables behind the panel, but it's still easier to do on paper than in metal or wood... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: engine primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my question. Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most expensive things in the panel. Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishere_3mf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: "D. Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Oscar Zuniga wrote: > >Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > >Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? > Have you tried an aircraft salvage yard yet? All aircraft have them in some fashion and I am sure there is not near as much demand for used ones as there are used ones available. Surely they are available for less than that. Dennis the cheapskate, still gasping over that price! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Oscar, Why bother with a primer? I have an A-65 in my Taylorcraft and do not use the primer. When I first got it I tried the primer and agfter fighting with it to get it to lock again gave up on it. I just flip the prop over a few times with the throttle closed and mags off listening to the sounds coming from the carb. Then mags on and flip once. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 > >Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > >Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike >the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my >question. > >Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my >Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that >goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most >expensive things in the panel. > >Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Subject: Primer
Oscar: I don't know how this will work, but the ultra light folks use a squeeze bulb primer. it has a check valve and is under 10 bucks. For the price, I'm going to order one on my nest AS&S order. If it don't work, I'm not out much. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Engine Primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
I never use mine on the 150's or the 172. just one stroke of the throttle and away she goes. My brushes on the older 150 went out and I didn't have time to change them for a week or so, so I hand propped it. Used the tail tiedown and one wheel chock (drivers side). Pulled the engine over 4 blades with the throttle closed and mixture rich (mag switches OFF) then cracked the throttle 1/4 inch (about 1000 rpm. and flipped it over. always cranks on the first flip. Stand beside or sit and make sure the engine is warmed up enough to run at slow idle. Then, at slow idle, untie the tail. Then I put one foot on the brake and with the other foot kicked out the wheel chock. Looked kinda funny, but at no time was the plane "free" to move. Still flew every day till the brushes came in. Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Oscar, I got mine out of a ultralight magazine. It doesn't lock but they work great and they are cheap. I think around 25 to 30 bucks if I remember correctly. I bought the kind for twin carbs. Input from the top of the gasolator to the primer, two tubes out going to each side of my manifold where the vacuum lines were on the corvair. One note for what it's worth. I found I have to prop it about 6 or 7 times before hitting the switch on as the fuel shot in and went to the back of the manifold with the incline of the engine. After a few props, she fires right up which is good as the rebuilt corvairs are kinda tight at first. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > > Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike > the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my > question. > > Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my > Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that > goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most > expensive things in the panel. > > Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishe re_3mf > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
ps Oscar,,, the one I have is panel mounted with a flat knob. I mounted it on my passenger panel. I don't think the bulb type would work well in a piet. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > > Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike > the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my > question. > > Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my > Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that > goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most > expensive things in the panel. > > Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishe re_3mf > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Swanson" <aswanson(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: engine primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Oscar, Try Wentworth Aircraft in Minneapolis MN. Seems to me they had them at Oshkosh for about 35 bucks. They are at www.wentworthaircraft.com and the phone is 1-800-4wentworth Al -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my question. Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most expensive things in the panel. (Snip) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Leon,,, The bulb type primers are used mostly with carbs that have enricheners on them such as Bing carbs. They are usually inline on the primary fuel line and force the fuel into the bowl and enrichener. You might want to consider a secondary line that primes the manifold. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Stefan" <lshutks(at)webtv.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Primer > > Oscar: I don't know how this will work, but the ultra light folks use a > squeeze bulb primer. it has a check valve and is under 10 bucks. For the > price, I'm going to order one on my nest AS&S order. If it don't work, > I'm not out much. Leon S. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Subject: Re: planning your panel layout
Oscar, If you are serious about needing a primer why didn't you say so. I've got them coming out the ole yanx, yanx. Tell me what type you want; for flair fitting or ball fitting. Price will be the same as for those items I received from you. Corky, owner of 41CC w/ 19 hours of trouble free flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAGEEHUM(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Subject: Pietenpol Model Kits
About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? Bob Humbert Battle Creek, MI N491RH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: mark deacon <wrenchspinner1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Model Kits
Check em out at http://www.peck-polymers.com/ under their Peanut scale line. I don't know of any larger kits but there are a lot of plans out there, up to 1/4 scale if I'm not mistaken. Mark Deacon Detroit, Mi --- MAGEEHUM(at)aol.com wrote: > About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick > and paper, rubber band > powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't > remember who the manufacturer > was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. > Does anyone know if > there is anything like that currently available, and > if so, where? > > Bob Humbert > Battle Creek, MI > N491RH > > > > Click on the > this > generous > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gdascomb(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Model Kits
Tower Hobbies has a 36" wingspan RC model. $49.99. It is for electric power, but you could probably make it rubber powered. George ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Model Kits
From: DJ Vegh <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2002
I believe there is a rubber power kit by Peck-Polymer I also have drawn plans for and built a 1/8 scale RC Piet for speed 400 electric power. you can see it at: http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-12-02.htm DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.raptoronline.com > > About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber > band powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the > manufacturer was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does > anyone know if there is anything like that currently available, and if > so, where? > > Bob Humbert Battle Creek, MI > N491RH > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Pietenpol Model Kits
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Peck Polymers. They should atill be in business. http://www.peck-polymers.com/ chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of MAGEEHUM(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? Bob Humbert Battle Creek, MI N491RH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Model Kits
Peck-Polymers Stock No. PP-1 according to the one that I have here. I bought it at the Geneseo Flying Aces meet. You can probably find one in a really good hobby shop or send a note to Sandy Peck at: Peck-Polymers P.O. Box 710399 Santee, CA 92072-0399 Dave > >About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band >powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer >was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if >there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? > >Bob Humbert >Battle Creek, MI >N491RH > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol Model Kits
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Bob, If you send me your snail mail. I will send you one. I bought it a while back, and have decided not to put the time in it, but rather build some ribs for the real one. Drop me a private email, and it will be in the mail on Thursday. N/C Doug B. Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <MAGEEHUM(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits > > About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band > powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer > was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if > there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? > > Bob Humbert > Battle Creek, MI > N491RH > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doyle Combs" <dcombs(at)ltex.net>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
I just noticed a primer on parts (aviation) and the price was in the $30's. It was surplus that had never been installed. Doyle Combs ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > > > Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > > >Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > > >Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? > > > Have you tried an aircraft salvage yard yet? All aircraft have them > in some fashion and I am sure there is not near as much demand for used > ones as there are used ones available. Surely they are available for > less than that. > Dennis the cheapskate, still gasping over that price! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Date: Dec 30, 2002
Oscar, I asked some A&P's why airplanes have primers instead of chokes. After all every other type of gas engine has a choke except airplanes. The answer was that not having a choke eliminated the parts of the choke falling off and getting sucked into the engine. I have fixed cars for over 30 years and not seen any part of a choke get sucked into an engine, they stake the little brass screws so they will not fall out. I am looking into using a Zenith updraft carb from a 60's Allis Chalmers on my Corvair engine. I have not gotten the carb yet and the biggest venturi they list is 30mm so I am not sure it would be big enough. Most Zenith carbs have adjustable main jets. But if this works out I would be able to eliminate the primer (weight, source of a fuel leak) and be able to start my engine in Indiana in the winter. If it does not work I will need to get the rest of the tractor. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette,IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > > Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike > the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my > question. > > Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my > Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that > goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most > expensive things in the panel. > > Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishe re_3mf > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: Larry Groulx <lgroulx(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: DXF drawings
Happy New Year Looking for 3 view dxf drawing. Has anyone used 1\4 X 1\4 capstrips on ribs? I'm following the plans as laid out. Christavia builder saw ribs, said overbuilt. Thanks Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: engine primer
Hi Oscar Hi friends I was running my engine today, just for check the little Nissan starter, it works very fine, it have in a reduction that turns the Corvair engine fast, it start very fast.. About the primer, my engine doesn't have it, the Marvell carburator works fine, when the engine is cold, before turn the key to start, i move the throtle one time to high rpm's and let it on idle (800 rpm's), and the engine start on the first or second turn, whit the engine warm it doesn't need the extra fuel, the engine start very quikly.. Saludos Javier Cruz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2002
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Primer
They do work, I have used them in my ultralights and light planes for years (both in 2 and 4 cycle engines), no one has broken yet... The spare I have is 4 years old in the box. Never used, ready for the next project. Is better than the "choke" botton in the Rotax engines... Saludos Gary Gower --- Leon Stefan wrote: > > Oscar: I don't know how this will work, but the ultra light folks use > a > squeeze bulb primer. it has a check valve and is under 10 bucks. For > the > price, I'm going to order one on my nest AS&S order. If it don't > work, > I'm not out much. Leon S. > > > > _-> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2002
Subject: Re: DXF drawings
Larry, Yes, the ribs are overbuilt. Early Cub, and Chief ribs were 1/4 x 1/4. In fact the Grega GN1 can be built with either 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x 1/2. But if you use 1/4 x1/4 it will not be 100% Pietenpol. Also realize that Pietenpol cut on the center cut making his ribs slightly less than 1/4 x 1/2. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2002
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 12/30/02
From: Craig Lawler <clawler(at)ptd.net>
Oscar, I have an engine primer I will sell for $50. Craig clawler(at)ptd.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: DXF drawings
Date: Dec 31, 2002
I have heard mention of this 'centerline dimensioning' before. I was wondering if you knew of any documentation on this or if it had been verified on one of the existing 'original' aircraft. I want to make sure it is not merely a myth before I take advantage of the potential weight savings to be found throughout the airframe. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: <ZigoDan(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DXF drawings > > Larry, > > Yes, the ribs are overbuilt. Early Cub, and Chief ribs were 1/4 x 1/4. In > fact the Grega GN1 can be built with either 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x 1/2. But if > you use 1/4 x1/4 it will not be 100% Pietenpol. Also realize that Pietenpol > cut on the center cut making his ribs slightly less than 1/4 x 1/2. > > Dan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sam Marinucci" <srmjem(at)ezol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 12/30/02
Date: Dec 31, 2002
I bought one at the Cub Fly in a few years ago at Lockhaven, Pa for $2.00 If you look around at the flea markets at the various air shows you can usually get some pretty good deals,of course, you can get ripped off just as easy too. -----Original Message----- From: Craig Lawler <clawler(at)ptd.net> Date: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 12/30/02 > >Oscar, > >I have an engine primer I will sell for $50. > >Craig clawler(at)ptd.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Buying Wood in SE
Date: Dec 31, 2002
Has anyone bought wood locally in GA, N.-FLA, ALA, TENN, NC, or SC? I could sure use some Names and/or Phone #'s. Just trying to find some in a one day drive from Atlanta. Need wing wood for 5 Piets and 3 Ryan STA's Barry Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Dec 31, 2002
For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 (with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the pavement and heard a chirp. (In my high hour plane of 3.5hours on the tach) Trying to forsee problems before they come. What pressure are you guys running in the skinny tires?? thanks walt NX140DL (north N.J.) PS spring is right around the corner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lauritz Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Dec 31, 2002
Re: Tire Pressure I'm using 35 psi in my 3.25x21 'skinny wheels'. Having a heat wave in Florida; up to 79 degrees today. Thunderstorms on the way. Lou Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 (with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the pavement and heard a chirp. (In my high hour plane of 3.5hours on the tach) Trying to forsee problems before they come. > What pressure are you guys running in the skinny tires?? > thanks > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > PS spring is right around the corner > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2002
From: Les Schubert <leskarin(at)telus.net>
Subject: questions by a new piet builder
I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. I am sure somebody has tried it. 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight so you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in the plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that hard to add. 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it would seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will educate me. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZigoDan(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2002
Subject: Re: questions by a new piet builder
Les, #1. If I were to build the 3 piece wing I would allow for some dihedral, not for stability but to keep the wing from looking a B-52 sitting on the ramp, you know droopy wings. #2 Balances on this machine are way ahead of it's time, just needless weight. #3 A trim tab would be in my opinion a worth while device to have, Mike Cuy developed a trim system that works good. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 01, 2003
----- Original Message ----- One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? > > > When I was involved in drag racing years ago that was a problem with the wheels turning in the slicks. One solution was to screw the tire to the rim. Didn't want to put holes in the wheels. Used rubber (contact) cement on the rim and tire bead. Worked fine. Rubber cement has dosen't have great tensel strength but works great in shear. Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 01, 2003
Ken, Is this something you can do with the wheels/tires together? Or do you have to do a teardown? Would be nice if one could just drizzle a bead between rubber and rim. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > > ----- Original Message ----- One day on landing, I spun the tire on the > tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires > spinning on tubes? or flats? > > > > > > > When I was involved in drag racing years ago that was a problem with the > wheels turning in the slicks. One solution was to screw the tire to the rim. > Didn't want to put holes in the wheels. Used rubber (contact) cement on the > rim and tire bead. Worked fine. Rubber cement has dosen't have great tensel > strength but works great in shear. > > Ken > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 01, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels ++++++++++++++++++++ Walt, I am running 3.50 x 18" wheels at 45 lbs off of a paved runway. Most every time I land, (that is if I make a decent landing) I too hear the "chirp" that you mention. Had no trouble with spinning the tire on the rim. You might consider increasing the tire pressure. John +++++++++++++++++++++ > > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 (with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the pavement and heard a chirp. (In my high hour plane of 3.5hours on the tach) Trying to forsee problems before they come. > What pressure are you guys running in the skinny tires?? > thanks > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > PS spring is right around the corner > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: questions by a new piet builder
Date: Jan 01, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" <leskarin(at)telus.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder +++++++++++++++++++++ Les, Dihedral or not, I understand that it really doesn't make a lot of difference in the flight characteristics of a Pietenpol. The reason that some builders put in about 1" of dihedral is only to avoid the "hangdog" appearance of a straight wing where it appears to have anhedral to the observer. Don't worry about having the elevator balanced, it will streamline itself in flight OK and if the plane is properly trimmed there are no fore and aft stick forces to contend with. If you are going to adhere to the Pietenpol plans without having a cowl tank and only having the wing tank then there is no need for trim. Both the fuel and passenger are then close to the CG and become a non-item. Mr. Pietenpol simply moved the whole wing to get the proper CG. If, however, you have a cowl tank, then as the fuel burns off, the CG of the plane will change and a trim mechanism is good to have. Both Mike Cuy and I independently came up with a similar system of springs attached to the jack shaft of the elevator control which can be biased by a lever to give you trim control. John ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things > 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a > good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. I > am sure somebody has tried it. > 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight so > you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in the > plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that hard > to add. > 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more > work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. > I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it would > seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will > educate me. > Les > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2003
From: Les Schubert <leskarin(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: questions by a new piet builder
Dan Thanks for the reply. It seems to me that the dihedral would also add a little stability. How much dihedral do you think I would need to avoid "droopy wings". It seems to me that a person could add the counterweight on the elevator bell crank so it shouldn't affect the c of g much. Do you have Mike Guy's email address. I would like to see/hear how he did it. I assume you have a piet project. Do you have 3 piece wings? There seems to be several designs around although the concept does not sound difficult. Kari-Ann's looks good as it seems like the attachment point is below the wing not inside as it seems like the other design is. I am curious as to how/ where people disconnect the control cables though. Any thoughts on this? regards Les > >Les, > >#1. If I were to build the 3 piece wing I would allow for some dihedral, not >for stability but to keep the wing from looking a B-52 sitting on the ramp, >you know droopy wings. > >#2 Balances on this machine are way ahead of it's time, just needless weight. > >#3 A trim tab would be in my opinion a worth while device to have, Mike Cuy >developed a trim system that works good. > >Dan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2003
From: Les Schubert <leskarin(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: questions by a new piet builder
John thanks for the reply. I would be interested in a sketch of your trim design. I don't know if I will need it as I plan to use the wing tank and only build it as a 1 place plane as I am 6' 4" tall and weigh 230# so it seems that with a Ford engine I will be marginally powered anyway. Again this seems to be more of a go up and just fly around plane and not a real cross country type. If you could snail mail me a sketch of the trim design I would appreciate it. It also would seem that a person could add a counterweight to the bell crank for the elevator balance if they wanted it. Les > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Les Schubert" <leskarin(at)telus.net> >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder >+++++++++++++++++++++ >Les, > >Dihedral or not, I understand that it really doesn't make a lot of >difference in the flight characteristics of a Pietenpol. >The reason that some builders put in about 1" of dihedral is only to avoid >the "hangdog" appearance of a straight wing where it appears to have >anhedral to the observer. > >Don't worry about having the elevator balanced, it will streamline itself in >flight OK and if the plane is properly trimmed there are no fore and aft >stick forces to contend with. > >If you are going to adhere to the Pietenpol plans without having a cowl tank >and only having the wing tank then there is no need for trim. Both the fuel >and passenger are then close to the CG and become a non-item. Mr. >Pietenpol simply moved the whole wing to get the proper CG. > >If, however, you have a cowl tank, then as the fuel burns off, the CG of the >plane will change and a trim mechanism is good to have. Both Mike Cuy and I >independently came up with a similar system of springs attached to the jack >shaft of the elevator control which can be biased by a lever to give you >trim control. > >John >++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things > > 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a > > good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. >I > > am sure somebody has tried it. > > 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight >so > > you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in >the > > plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that >hard > > to add. > > 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more > > work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. > > I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it >would > > seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will > > educate me. > > Les > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: questions by a new piet builder
Date: Jan 01, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" <leskarin(at)telus.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder +++++++++++++++++++++++ Les, Need to have your mailing address. John +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > John > thanks for the reply. I would be interested in a sketch of your trim design. > I don't know if I will need it as I plan to use the wing tank and only build it > as a 1 place plane as I am 6' 4" tall and weigh 230# so it seems that with a > Ford engine I will be marginally powered anyway. Again this seems to be > more of a go up and just fly around plane and not a real cross country type. > If you could snail mail me a sketch of the trim design I would appreciate it. > It also would seem that a person could add a counterweight to the bell > crank for the elevator balance if they wanted it. > Les > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Les Schubert" <leskarin(at)telus.net> > >To: > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder > >+++++++++++++++++++++ > >Les, > > > >Dihedral or not, I understand that it really doesn't make a lot of > >difference in the flight characteristics of a Pietenpol. > >The reason that some builders put in about 1" of dihedral is only to avoid > >the "hangdog" appearance of a straight wing where it appears to have > >anhedral to the observer. > > > >Don't worry about having the elevator balanced, it will streamline itself in > >flight OK and if the plane is properly trimmed there are no fore and aft > >stick forces to contend with. > > > >If you are going to adhere to the Pietenpol plans without having a cowl tank > >and only having the wing tank then there is no need for trim. Both the fuel > >and passenger are then close to the CG and become a non-item. Mr. > >Pietenpol simply moved the whole wing to get the proper CG. > > > >If, however, you have a cowl tank, then as the fuel burns off, the CG of the > >plane will change and a trim mechanism is good to have. Both Mike Cuy and I > >independently came up with a similar system of springs attached to the jack > >shaft of the elevator control which can be biased by a lever to give you > >trim control. > > > >John > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things > > > 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a > > > good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. > >I > > > am sure somebody has tried it. > > > 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight > >so > > > you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in > >the > > > plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that > >hard > > > to add. > > > 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more > > > work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. > > > I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it > >would > > > seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will > > > educate me. > > > Les > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 01, 2003
You just need to seperate the bead from the rim but do not need to dismount the tire from the rim. Put the rubber cement on both surface when dry inflate tire to seat the bead. Done Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > Ken, > Is this something you can do with the wheels/tires together? Or do you have > to do a teardown? Would be nice if one could just drizzle a bead between > rubber and rim. > walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Anderson" <piet4ken(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- One day on landing, I spun the tire on the > > tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > > > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires > > spinning on tubes? or flats? > > > > > > > > > > > When I was involved in drag racing years ago that was a problem with the > > wheels turning in the slicks. One solution was to screw the tire to the > rim. > > Didn't want to put holes in the wheels. Used rubber (contact) cement on > the > > rim and tire bead. Worked fine. Rubber cement has dosen't have great > tensel > > strength but works great in shear. > > > > Ken > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 01, 2003
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Walt Evans, In one of your message some time ago you mentioned that you moved you wing back 3 inches to get the weight and balance right. I just ran a quick wt and bal and have the same problem. If you can remember, at what percent of the wing cord did you end up with and how does it fly? In Iowa with no snow Ken Conrad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 01, 2003
Ken, Was just snoozing on the couch, and a little groggy. But here goes,,,my weight and bal came out about 2 3/4" too far aft. Moved the wing back, and just got it in. got thru DAR inspection and now flying with about 3.5 hours on it. I had moved the engine mount about 1 3/4" fwd with an A-65, and I weigh 210/220#,,,,,,,,,With almost full nose tank, flies hands off/ a little fwd stick with half nose tank. remind me tomorrow and I'll send you the final results in EXCEL on what the #'s were. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: <Wizzard187(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > Walt Evans, In one of your message some time ago you mentioned that you > moved you wing back 3 inches to get the weight and balance right. I just > ran a quick wt and bal and have the same problem. If you can remember, > at what percent of the wing cord did you end up with and how does it fly? > In Iowa with no snow Ken Conrad > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: mocycle tire pressure
Walt---I run about 17 to 21 lbs. as I recall on my skinny tires. You are right----the guy at the motorcycle shop told me to beware of this on landing on pavement with the spin-up. Luckily we touch down at a pretty low speed, but this can be a problem. I eyeball the tire on the hangar floor too to see that all the tread is touching, but not any more than that. (ie, too much side bulge not good.....too little, hard landings:) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: trim sketches are ON-line.......please read
Les, group-----Go to Carl Loar's web site here for some of our sketches that he kindly posted....... http://cvl.virtualave.net/mikedraw.htm I see no need for a counterbalance on the elevator system and if you position the wing right for your particular engine/body weight/fuel tank location a trim system isn't really necessary. It it helpful though in a case like mine where my 17 gallons of fuel is in the nose and as it burns off I use a bit of nose-down trim. If I would just loose some weight that would not even be needed. Info about the video I offer is in the Brodhead Pietenpol Association Newsletter-----see this web site for subscription info, http://www.pietenpol.org/ or here http://users.aol.com/bpabpabpa/cuyvideo.html, only difference is that Priority Mail shipping is not $3 but $4 now. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 02, 2003
Walt, The eyeball engineer in me says you should not have the spun tire problem with large rims, here is my thinking. A 21" rim has 2 beads of 65.97" so over 130" of friction between rubber and rim. The distance between the rim and pavement in my 21" tires is 5", so you have a 5" lever trying to rotate the tire on the rim and 130" of friction trying to stop the rotation. A 4" Cub tire has 2 beads 12.56" so less than 26" of friction and the lever is about 8" long. Seems to me the spun tire problem would be much less with the large rims with small tires on them. Skip, Still turning my aluminum hubs. -----Original Message----- > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 (with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the pavement and heard a chirp. >walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Mike's Piet Video
Date: Jan 02, 2003
To our "for what it's worth dept"... I can't stress enough the help that Mike's video can help while building the aircamper. Talking about different phases of building on here is great but when you can put something visual with it really helps. Another great help is seeing some of the building photo's that are on mykitplane.com. Plus we have the archives of this list. You may not use the same exact technique that Mike and the rest of us used but it will give you a great foundation to build on your own method. They are tools that are just as important as your torches, grinders, hammers and saws. Carl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Mike's Piet Video
Date: Jan 02, 2003
Carl, I second that!!! As a matter of fact I was watching parts of it just yesterday. When I was in the building stages, didn't get too much into the flying scenes, only to oogle at them. Yesterday I got alot out of the same scenes cause I'm flying now and wanting to compare performance. No one will ever regret getting this tape. A keeper! walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl(at)megsinet.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mike's Piet Video > > To our "for what it's worth dept"... I can't stress enough the help that > Mike's video can help > while building the aircamper. Talking about different phases of building on > here is great but > when you can put something visual with it really helps. Another great help > is seeing some of > the building photo's that are on mykitplane.com. Plus we have the archives > of this list. > You may not use the same exact technique that Mike and the rest of us used > but it will give > you a great foundation to build on your own method. They are tools that are > just as important > as your torches, grinders, hammers and saws. > Carl > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 02, 2003
Ken, Here is the W&B for the worst case . I had made four of these with/without pass, and fuel /no fuel in either tank. But the problem in Piets are for rear CG, so that's what I had to watch. This is for only pilot with only 4 gals in the nose tank. Not noted on the prog sheet is that with everything level, the leading edge is 49" from datum ( prop hub snout.) Also that block on the right seemed to have a mind of it's own with the tank data, don't know if that's accurate. It was the nose tank that saved me CG wise. Just remember, you don't really move the wing back,,,you move the fuselage forward. walt ps assuming you have excel, you should be able to plug in your own numbers to this if you want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > Ken, > Was just snoozing on the couch, and a little groggy. But here goes,,,my > weight and bal came out about 2 3/4" too far aft. Moved the wing back, and > just got it in. got thru DAR inspection and now flying with about 3.5 hours > on it. I had moved the engine mount about 1 3/4" fwd with an A-65, and I > weigh 210/220#,,,,,,,,,With almost full nose tank, flies hands off/ a little > fwd stick with half nose tank. remind me tomorrow and I'll send you the > final results in EXCEL on what the #'s were. > walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Wizzard187(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > > > > > Walt Evans, In one of your message some time ago you mentioned that you > > moved you wing back 3 inches to get the weight and balance right. I just > > ran a quick wt and bal and have the same problem. If you can remember, > > at what percent of the wing cord did you end up with and how does it fly? > > In Iowa with no snow Ken Conrad > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: mocycle tire pressure
Date: Jan 02, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: mocycle tire pressure +++++++++++++++++ Mike, I run 45 lbs of pressure in my 3.5 x 18" tires. Is this the reason that most of my landings are hard? ( I am looking for any excuse) John ++++++++++++++++++++ > > Walt---I run about 17 to 21 lbs. as I recall on my skinny tires. You are > right----the guy at the motorcycle shop > told me to beware of this on landing on pavement with the > spin-up. Luckily we touch down at a pretty low speed, but > this can be a problem. I eyeball the tire on the hangar floor too to see > that all the tread is touching, but not any more than that. > (ie, too much side bulge not good.....too little, hard landings:) > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2003
From: Larry Groulx <lgroulx(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse.
Hi, What is the weight difference between the complete wood fuselage vs. complete tube fuselage? Thanks Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse.
Date: Jan 02, 2003
Larry Groulx asked: > What is the weight difference between the complete wood fuselage vs. > complete tube fuselage? The steel is lighter, but I'm not sure how much lighter. The figure I've heard was 35 to 40 pounds, but that seems like an awful lot to save from one fuselage. In any case, the wood Piet flies well enough so that your choice is probably as much aesthetic as anything. A Piet doesn't seem like a Piet to me unless it's wood, even though the design is also from Mr. Pietenpol himself. Despite which, mine is likely to be steel tube. I really enjoy welding, and the other planes I want to build are all steel tube designs. So it goes. Owen Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse.
Date: Jan 02, 2003
Larry, In 1970 I built a Pietenpol with a wooden fuselage whch I'm still flying. Then, about five years later I built a steel tube fuselage based on the Pietenpol plans. I increased the size of some members, particularly in the cockpit area. I'm not sure of the numbers anymore, but the weight of the basic frame with- out fittings was approximately 35 lbs. By the time I added seat supports, fittings, fairing clips, front pit door structure, etc. it had increased noticeably. However, I believe it was still below the weight of the wooden fuselage. How much I cannot say. This airplane had steel tubing tail surfaces which were a bit heavier than the wooden ones. I sold the project and it was finished and became a good- flying Pietenpol with an A65, although its empty weight wound up at about 660 lbs.(solid, not routed, wing spars made it heavier). I would recommend that one should stick with the wooden tail surfaces even with a steel fuselage; they are about as light as it is possible to make them. Weight savings of 35 to 40 lbs. from using the steel tubing fuselage seem too high because we are talking about the frame only. While I didn't weigh it, my basic wood frame fuselage wasn't very heavy either. (Framing was spruce and I used marine quality 1/8" ply for the sides together with 1/4" marine fir ply for the floor. Gussets were 1/8" aircraft birch ply.) Does anyone out there have the numbers for the basic wood frame? Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse.
Date: Jan 02, 2003
Graham, I have my basic fuselage glued together. Both sides, floor and side walls. I will try to remember to weigh it next time I go to the work shop. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. <grhans@cable-lynx.net> > > Larry, > > In 1970 I built a Pietenpol with a wooden fuselage whch I'm still flying. > Then, > about five years later I built a steel tube fuselage based on the Pietenpol > plans. I increased the size of some members, particularly in the cockpit > area. > > I'm not sure of the numbers anymore, but the weight of the basic frame with- > out fittings was approximately 35 lbs. By the time I added seat supports, > fittings, fairing clips, front pit door structure, etc. it had increased > noticeably. However, I believe it was still below the weight of the wooden > fuselage. How > much I cannot say. > > This airplane had steel tubing tail surfaces which were a bit heavier than > the > wooden ones. I sold the project and it was finished and became a good- > flying Pietenpol with an A65, although its empty weight wound up at about > 660 lbs.(solid, not routed, wing spars made it heavier). I would recommend > that one should stick with the wooden tail surfaces even with a steel > fuselage; they are about as light as it is possible to make them. > > Weight savings of 35 to 40 lbs. from using the steel tubing fuselage seem > too > high because we are talking about the frame only. While I didn't weigh it, > my > basic wood frame fuselage wasn't very heavy either. (Framing was spruce and > I used marine quality 1/8" ply for the sides together with 1/4" marine fir > ply for the floor. Gussets were 1/8" aircraft birch ply.) > > Does anyone out there have the numbers for the basic wood frame? > > Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 03, 2003
Ahhh, an engineering question. :) Skip, I tip my hat to your eyeball engineering skills and let me respectively add additional information to this topic (I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, I just have an engineering degree sitting on a shelf collecting dust and like to think I didn't waste my money, so forgive me please). The point at which the tire will spin on a rim at touchdown is when the friction between the tire and rim is less than the force required to accelerate just the rim AND the acceleration rate of the tire and rim due to the friction between the tire and ground is greater than the previously stated rate. What I mean to say is that if the tire sticks to the ground really well and tries to spin the wheel really fast at touchdown AND the wheel rim is heavy enough and resists the high acceleration it will break free of the tire if the friction between the two isn't great enough. (I'm going to stop now before I get into leverage and moment of inertia, whew.) This is not a problem in grass because there isn't enough friction between the tire and ground. Also, this not a problem on any surface with our big spoke wheels because they have a lot of rim/tire friction area (due to the increased diameter) and the rims are relatively light. Also, the skinnier the wheel the better since rim/tire friction area is the same while the tire/ground friction area is decreased. But as stated earlier, make sure you have adequate tire pressure to keep an decent amount of friction between the tire and rim. Finally, think about this... a motorcycle rider is zipping down the highway at 60mph and has to stop immediately. He pulls the brakes and stops as fast as he can. Do the tires spin on the rims? Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois -----Original Message----- Walt, The eyeball engineer in me says you should not have the spun tire problem with large rims, here is my thinking. A 21" rim has 2 beads of 65.97" so over 130" of friction between rubber and rim. The distance between the rim and pavement in my 21" tires is 5", so you have a 5" lever trying to rotate the tire on the rim and 130" of friction trying to stop the rotation. A 4" Cub tire has 2 beads 12.56" so less than 26" of friction and the lever is about 8" long. Seems to me the spun tire problem would be much less with the large rims with small tires on them. Skip, Still turning my aluminum hubs. > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 (with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the pavement and heard a chirp. >walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
sqrlnet(at)yahoogroups.com, STOL(at)onelist.com
Subject: Alamo City Corvair College
Date: Jan 03, 2003
Howdy, Vairheads; I got a call from William Wynne last night. As I suspected, he had left for New Jersey just before Christmas so when he got back to Florida his email account was jammed, his phone answering machine was full, and who knows what he had waiting for him at the post office box. But... we're looking good for the upcoming College and folks who called or wrote to him for parts should be getting action pretty quickly. An important correction to note. William prepared and mailed the most recent Corvair Flyer (his printed newsletter) late at night so he got the dates for the College wrong. If you see something about Jan. 16-17 don't despair... it is still set for Saturday, Jan. 18. William will be arriving sometime around noon on Friday to get set up, but the main workday is Saturday with details and mop-up on Sunday if anyone is still around and wants to do anything further. William will be bringing manuals, prop hubs, oil pans, hybrid studs, and other items that he sells. We will also have a press (for piston pins and crank hubs), compressed air and tools, jigs for holding case halves and cylinders, and assembly lube/form-a-gasket/lubriplate type stuff. Things to bring if you're building an engine (or dismantling, or converting): bring your own hand tools such as wrenches, screwdrivers, and a big hammer ;o) also plenty of carb cleaner and degreaser if you're dismantling or cleaning/prepping. If you have any sort of folding tables or portable workbenches, those will be helpful too. Rags are always needed (such as discarded Texas Aggies shirts) and coffee cans or other containers for dismantled stuff. The CORSA guys might be looking over our shoulders just for fun and general interest, and the local EAA chapter members have all been invited via this month's Chapter newsletter and email. I'll be giving the program on 1/11 to the Chapter and of course it will be on the Corvair. My plan is to have a table up front with the complete, disassembled, painted and prepped engine available for show and tell, as well as the manual available for browsing. There shouldn't be a speck of grease or grime on any of it! Thanks to Mark Langford and Pat Panzera for setting the construction and cleanliness standards high for the rest of us to follow. I will post updates and more detailed directions on getting to San Geronimo Airpark on the http://www.corvaircraft.com main webpage (thanks, Pat!) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: RE: question for the guys with skinny wheels
Date: Jan 03, 2003
Robert, Thanks, way more than I wanted to know, cool! Skip -----Original Message----- Ahhh, an engineering question. :) let me respectively add additional information to this topic Robert ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2003
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: [CorvAIRCRAFT] Alamo City Corvair College
Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.6 (built Oct 18 2002)) Dragonflylist , Q-List , Smith Miniplane , Corvaircraft , CorvAIRCRAFT , corvair(at)yahoogroups.com, flycorvair(at)yahoogroups.com, toms_dragonfly(at)yahoogroups.com From: Patrick Panzera <panzera@experimental-aviation.com> List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:49:43 -0800 Subject: [CorvAIRCRAFT] Alamo City Corvair College --lhJVRaA3EDtVLwHFmqs9kvatzmBy7aZdBqoVjsT Just a reminder, the Alamo City Corvair College is coming up fast! William Wynne will be in attendance at the event hosted by Oscar Zuniga, Jan. 18, 2003, at San Geronimo Airpark (San Antonio), TX. 8T8 (identifier) Click for more info: http://www.corvaircraft.com/ Please pass this along to any other e-mail lists you might belong to... KR, Pietenpol, etc. Even car guys might be interested, as the local Corsa chapter will be involved! Thanks! Pat --lhJVRaA3EDtVLwHFmqs9kvatzmBy7aZdBqoVjsT Just a reminder, the Alamo City Corvair College is coming up fast! William Wynne will be in attendance at the event hosted by Oscar Zuniga, Jan. 18, 2003, at San Geronimo Airpark (San Antonio), TX. 8T8 (identifier) Click for more info: http://www.corvaircraft.com/ Please pass this along to any other e-mail lists you might belong to... KR, Pietenpol, etc. Even car guys might be interested, as the local Corsa chapter will be involved! Thanks! Pat ADVERTISEMENT http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/am/ameriquest/yahoo_300x250_files.gif" alt="" width="300" height="250" border="0"> http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=234081.2814790.4175286.1925585/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1327986/rand=705964617"> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: corvaircraft-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com --lhJVRaA3EDtVLwHFmqs9kvatzmBy7aZdBqoVjsT-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2003
From: Les Schubert <leskarin(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: RE: question for the guys with skinny
wheels If you can all stand one more posting on this question here is my observation. I have played with really old cars for years (model T Fords and the like) and tire slippage on these cars is a real problem with these skinny tires if you don't run adequate pressure . Your average old model T has 23" or 24" rims with 3" or 3 1/2" wide tires. The desired tire pressure is 50 to 60 psi. to prevent tire slippage on hard acceleration or braking (don't laugh). The reason appears to be that the bead areas don't seem to "bite" very well to the rim. These cars also have clincher style tires which don't have a cable bead as you all are familiar with so the rim wraps in a hook fashion around the bead area so you have lots of contact area and still they slip if the pressure is low (30 psi is too low on a car). At 30 psi. they will even slip in normal driving and you will easily get a flat in 100 miles with a torn out valve stem. In 1925 the balloon type tire came on the scene with a 21" or smaller rim and 4 1/2" wide tire and a cable bead and they JUST worked with 30 psi. I think the real change with modern car wheels is the safety style bead with the bead retaining ridge on the rim so the tire is tight to the rim after being stretched over this ridge. If you have tried you will observe that it is really difficult to break a new bead lose from the rim on modern car wheels and correspondingly they tire doesn't slip easily on the rim even with low pressures. You will notice that the wheels we work with don't usually have this ridge behind the tire bead so it is easy to dismount the tires, The glue suggestion sounds like a good one. ps. I have a engineering degree sitting on the shelf as well but it is just gathering dust now. Regards Les in Calgary > > >Ahhh, an engineering question. :) > >Skip, I tip my hat to your eyeball engineering skills and let me >respectively add additional information to this topic (I don't mean to sound >like a smart ass, I just have an engineering degree sitting on a shelf >collecting dust and like to think I didn't waste my money, so forgive me >please). > >The point at which the tire will spin on a rim at touchdown is when the >friction between the tire and rim is less than the force required to >accelerate just the rim AND the acceleration rate of the tire and rim due to >the friction between the tire and ground is greater than the previously >stated rate. What I mean to say is that if the tire sticks to the ground >really well and tries to spin the wheel really fast at touchdown AND the >wheel rim is heavy enough and resists the high acceleration it will break >free of the tire if the friction between the two isn't great enough. (I'm >going to stop now before I get into leverage and moment of inertia, whew.) > >This is not a problem in grass because there isn't enough friction between >the tire and ground. Also, this not a problem on any surface with our big >spoke wheels because they have a lot of rim/tire friction area (due to the >increased diameter) and the rims are relatively light. Also, the skinnier >the wheel the better since rim/tire friction area is the same while the >tire/ground friction area is decreased. But as stated earlier, make sure >you have adequate tire pressure to keep an decent amount of friction between >the tire and rim. > >Finally, think about this... a motorcycle rider is zipping down the highway >at 60mph and has to stop immediately. He pulls the brakes and stops as fast >as he can. Do the tires spin on the rims? > >Robert Haines >Du Quoin, Illinois > > >-----Original Message----- > >Walt, >The eyeball engineer in me says you should not have the spun tire problem >with large rims, here is my thinking. >A 21" rim has 2 beads of 65.97" so over 130" of friction between rubber and >rim. >The distance between the rim and pavement in my 21" tires is 5", so you have >a 5" lever trying to rotate the tire on the rim and 130" of friction trying >to stop the rotation. > >A 4" Cub tire has 2 beads 12.56" so less than 26" of friction and the lever >is about 8" long. > >Seems to me the spun tire problem would be much less with the large rims >with small tires on them. >Skip, Still turning my aluminum hubs. > > > > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 >(with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. >One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore >the stem. > > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires >spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the >pavement and heard a chirp. > >walt > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2003
From: Mpj01(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Wood landing gear
Hi, I've been wrestling with the wood landing gear angles. Do you still have photos of your work? Thanks Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2003
From: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
Subject: Re: Wood landing gear
I have put pictures from Jack Phillips on my Mykitplane.com site. Look under Kirk Huizenga and then Landing Gear. I too am wrestling, but having fun. It all starts coming together (in my mind at least) after messing with it for a while. Kirk > >Hi, >I've been wrestling with the wood landing gear angles. Do you still >have photos of your work? >Thanks >Mike -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2003
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel(at)mykitplane.com>
Subject: Wood landing gear
Try this too Mike. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=94 Gary McNeel, Jr. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > Mpj01(at)aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:52 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear > > > > Hi, > I've been wrestling with the wood landing gear angles. Do you > still have photos of your work? > Thanks > Mike > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 04, 2003
Subject: Piets in Corona?
Hello Group! Several years ago, 1999, I think, there was a Pietenpol Fly-in at Corona in April. Is this an annual event? Is there a date set for this year? Californian Piet followers want to know! Thanx. Don Cooley Fairfield, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 04, 2003
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/03/03
From: Larry Groulx <lgroulx(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. Hi, What is the weight difference between the complete wood fuselage vs. complete tube fuselage? Thanks Larry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819(at)adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. Larry Groulx asked: > What is the weight difference between the complete wood fuselage vs. > complete tube fuselage? From: "CML"; I just weighed my fuselage, ready for varnishing, no metal fittings, Turtledeck, panels, seats, etc. all installed. Built with VGDF and Basswood Plywood. Total Weight = 71 pounds. Is this close to the Norm? Now welding up Landing Gear ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Fishnet"
Subject: had to knock snow off my hanger top
Date: Jan 05, 2003
Went up yesterday and knocked about 5" of packed snow from the top of my "Cover-it" hanger. but my plane is snug as a bug in it's winter home. Luckily the jump school keeps anticipating jumping weekends , so they plow the runway. That gets me most of the way there. Makes me remember fondly the skis that I made for my old Kolb Ultrastar. Trouble was, you'd fly away on a warmer day, and when you came back, you had to squeeze it into a small area that had snow, all the rest had melted. Don't think it would be the case today though. Spring is right around the corner. Can all who know the dates of fly-ins in the NE (NJ, NY, PA) Post them please. I know last year I missed Warwick , NY. thanks walt NX140DL (north N.J.) PS. How much snow did you get Corky? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: wonder how the fisherman is making out
Date: Jan 05, 2003
Anyone have his web site? walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "TWINBOOM" <TWINBOOM(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: wonder how the fisherman is making out
Date: Jan 05, 2003
Walt, Here you go, cayecaulker(at)justice.com , His name is Ray Auxillo btw. Doug Blackburn Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: wonder how the fisherman is making out > > Anyone have his web site? > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse.
Date: Jan 05, 2003
Graham, As promised I went to the work shop today on the way to the monthly EAA Chapter meeting. I weighed my basic fuselage. It is only the two sides glued together with the plywood sides and bottom glued on and fire wall in place. I used the 1/4 inch for the firewall as I did not have the suggested 3/16". 1/8" gussets were used through out. 1" sq. longerons and all other pieces as per plans. All Sitka spruce and birch plywood. I used an accurate set of scales and with help balanced the fuselage on the scales. It weighs 53 lbs. I am in the process of sanding off all glue drips and runs. I will have to wait for it to warm up before doing any more gluing. I am now working on reassembling a Corvair engine and I have a blank glued up to practice carving out a prop. I built a duplicating machine using a Sears router. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. <grhans@cable-lynx.net> > > Larry,


December 10, 2002 - January 05, 2003

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-cy