Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-dj
August 31, 2003 - September 18, 2003
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
Chris,
Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea what's
going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa says
only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to be doing
with them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a guy
get?
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
Corky,
First they try to see if a honing will do the trick to keep the cylinder
standard size bore. If that is no good then they try to take the cylinders
over by .015". Sometimes the cylinder will wear funny so that even after
going the .015, there is still an OOR (out of round) condition so this is
still no good. Other times, there is rust. A corrision cell in steel is
narrow and deep unlike aluminum witch is usually wide and shallow. This
depth of the corrosion cell in the steel might mean that even with a .015
grind, they still can't get to the bottom of the cell and clean metal. For
plating the metal must be perfect. If there is one point that the chrome
can't stick to, then it is no dice. I saw at sentry an example of what
happens when you try to plate over this "dead" metal. It doesn't work.
The FAA approved plating procedure at some shops allows an overgrind to
.020", then plating back to standard bore. the chrome procedure is great
because you will most likely never have bad bores again as it is so hard and
won't normally corrode. I have had cylinders brought back from the dead by
saying that they were for an Airboat (lots in LA and close cousin to the
experimetnal airplane). With your experimental (or even under the porposed
Sport Pilot), certified work is not necessary so why go for the yeallow tag?
Tell em it is for an airboat and bring it back from the dead if it is close.
Remember that these cylinders, yellow tagged, have to take the strain of an
A-80 at higher compression because the FAA can't predict the engine they
will ulitmately be used on, so the certified cylinders are over built for
the 65 hp of the A-65.
The reference to silver plating is new to new to me but maybe they meant, as
someone suggested, they were to cerminil the bore. Either way, go with the
technology.
On ebay, I have purchased c-85 up to O-200 cylinders (same cylinder pn for
all). One is cerminil, one is cermichrome, one is channel chrome, and
another is steel. I hope to run all four types on the same engine and see
how they fare in comparative use.
Final caution. It is imperitive that you use the piston rings that come
from ECI. Different cylinder surfaces require different ring material and
if you use the wrong rings, your cylinders will last 100 hours and
everything in the engine will be toast. I can't stress this enough. Old
piston ring PNs and the ones in the continental parts books refer to steel
bores so you most likely will have to use aftermarket vendors for rings
compatible with chrome, cerminil, etc.
I have found that with ECI, it is worth calling them to get the scoop.
Hell, don't be patient.
I have also found with my Cessna 140 cylinders that were sent to them four
years ago that they inspected and found cracks (that I could see too) in two
of the cylinders and then proceeded to just red taged the other two as
cracked beyond repair without even evidently inspecting them. They wanted
to sell more new cylinder assemblies. I ended up with a set of new superior
airparts millenium cylinders so they shot themselves in the foot.
Being the cheapass airline pilot I am, I took the other two uninspected
cylinders to the local cylinder shop. No cracks found and they just need a
hone job to be back in service with a standard bore so I have them on the
shelf for a future project. Go figure. It obviously pays to get many
opinions and bead blast off the red dye penetrant and have someone else
render a second or third opinion.
chris bobka
(in minneapolis - not sacramento)
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
>
> Chris,
> Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea
what's
> going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa
says
> only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to be
doing
> with them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a
guy
> get?
> Corky
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
Chris,
Thanks for the explanations, I wish I knew enough about it to fully
understand. Each to his own speciality. I don't think I told Sentry specifically
that
these were to be for an experimental. I'll call them again Tuesday.
In the meantime, I have 1200 in this engine to begin with, another 400+ in
the everhauled mags. Now I'm bidding on an A-65 on Ebay and a 0-145 Lyc on Ebay.
Wish I could cancel the Lyc bid but can't. Thought that by getting another 65
I might be able to get one good one from the two. Also could get another dud.
Frankly I think maybe I'll just let this engine sit until I hear from Sentry.
Thanks again for you comments and expertise.
Is there anything to the subject recently on this net about boring a 65 case
to use other cyls ?. I could get some 0-200 cyl from Mr Harvey.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
Corky,
Just a strange note to throw in. We use chrome plating in our line of work
and if you haven't run into it, You'll expect to see shiney chrome like on
you're old '56 buick bumper. Chrome itself is clear, and it doesn't look
like much if you have it done. I understand there are they're own set of
problems getting the rings to seal properly to the super hard chrome. So
check with the pros.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
>
> Corky,
>
> First they try to see if a honing will do the trick to keep the cylinder
> standard size bore. If that is no good then they try to take the
cylinders
snip< snip< snip<
> hone job to be back in service with a standard bore so I have them on the
> shelf for a future project. Go figure. It obviously pays to get many
> opinions and bead blast off the red dye penetrant and have someone else
> render a second or third opinion.
>
> chris bobka
> (in minneapolis - not sacramento)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
>
>
> >
> > Chris,
> > Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea
> what's
> > going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa
> says
> > only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to
be
> doing
> > with them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a
> guy
> > get?
> > Corky
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JR" <rocca(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Hello-New member |
Hello Group-My name is John Rocca. I've been following this group along with all
of the Corvair groups. I presently own a Sonerai II and an Ison 1600R. I am
currently building a Sonex and very intrigued with Del's Corvair setup.
I bought the 1932 Flight manual at Oshkosh this year and will be ordering my plans
for the Pietenpol soon. I will certainly use a Corvair 164 CID engine.
Just wanted to say hello-and I'm on the sidelines soon ready to play!
John
Pittsburgh PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
Call ECI and ask for Jimmy Tubbs. He's then head of engineering and a good
friend of mine. He is sometimes hard to get hold of, but a good guy that will
try to help. If nothing else, he'll put you in contact with the right person
in their shop.
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hello-New member |
welcome to the group john
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "JR" <rocca(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hello-New member
>
> Hello Group-My name is John Rocca. I've been following this group along
with all of the Corvair groups. I presently own a Sonerai II and an Ison
1600R. I am currently building a Sonex and very intrigued with Del's Corvair
setup.
> I bought the 1932 Flight manual at Oshkosh this year and will be ordering
my plans for the Pietenpol soon. I will certainly use a Corvair 164 CID
engine.
> Just wanted to say hello-and I'm on the sidelines soon ready to play!
> John
> Pittsburgh PA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dpilot <dpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
One thing that is not mentioned very much is the fact that when a cylinder is bored
out, the threads that hold on the head are that much weaker. I had an engine
that had been bored to .015, and saw a black streak running down from where
the head and cylinder are screwed together. Every time an engine is inspected,
a real good look should be done at this location. Turns out all 4 of my cylinders
were bad.
I know personally of 3 instances where the cylinder head came off in flight.
Not only makes a nasty looking cowling, but you need to land right away.
JimV.
Christian Bobka wrote:
Corky,
First they try to see if a honing will do the trick to keep the cylinder
standard size bore. If that is no good then they try to take the cylinders
over by .015". Sometimes the cylinder will wear funny so that even after
going the .015, there is still an OOR (out of round) condition so this is
still no good. Other times, there is rust. A corrision cell in steel is
narrow and deep unlike aluminum witch is usually wide and shallow. This
depth of the corrosion cell in the steel might mean that even with a .015
grind, they still can't get to the bottom of the cell and clean metal. For
plating the metal must be perfect. If there is one point that the chrome
can't stick to, then it is no dice. I saw at sentry an example of what
happens when you try to plate over this "dead" metal. It doesn't work.
The FAA approved plating procedure at some shops allows an overgrind to
.020", then plating back to standard bore. the chrome procedure is great
because you will most likely never have bad bores again as it is so hard and
won't normally corrode. I have had cylinders brought back from the dead by
saying that they were for an Airboat (lots in LA and close cousin to the
experimetnal airplane). With your experimental (or even under the porposed
Sport Pilot), certified work is not necessary so why go for the yeallow tag?
Tell em it is for an airboat and bring it back from the dead if it is close.
Remember that these cylinders, yellow tagged, have to take the strain of an
A-80 at higher compression because the FAA can't predict the engine they
will ulitmately be used on, so the certified cylinders are over built for
the 65 hp of the A-65.
The reference to silver plating is new to new to me but maybe they meant, as
someone suggested, they were to cerminil the bore. Either way, go with the
technology.
On ebay, I have purchased c-85 up to O-200 cylinders (same cylinder pn for
all). One is cerminil, one is cermichrome, one is channel chrome, and
another is steel. I hope to run all four types on the same engine and see
how they fare in comparative use.
Final caution. It is imperitive that you use the piston rings that come
from ECI. Different cylinder surfaces require different ring material and
if you use the wrong rings, your cylinders will last 100 hours and
everything in the engine will be toast. I can't stress this enough. Old
piston ring PNs and the ones in the continental parts books refer to steel
bores so you most likely will have to use aftermarket vendors for rings
compatible with chrome, cerminil, etc.
I have found that with ECI, it is worth calling them to get the scoop.
Hell, don't be patient.
I have also found with my Cessna 140 cylinders that were sent to them four
years ago that they inspected and found cracks (that I could see too) in two
of the cylinders and then proceeded to just red taged the other two as
cracked beyond repair without even evidently inspecting them. They wanted
to sell more new cylinder assemblies. I ended up with a set of new superior
airparts millenium cylinders so they shot themselves in the foot.
Being the cheapass airline pilot I am, I took the other two uninspected
cylinders to the local cylinder shop. No cracks found and they just need a
hone job to be back in service with a standard bore so I have them on the
shelf for a future project. Go figure. It obviously pays to get many
opinions and bead blast off the red dye penetrant and have someone else
render a second or third opinion.
chris bobka
(in minneapolis - not sacramento)
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
>
> Chris,
> Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea
what's
> going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa
says
> only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to be
doing
> with them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a
guy
> get?
> Corky
>
>
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: C-90 or O-200 |
Good point. Part of the cylinder inspection should include a pressure test
of the cylinder to ensure that the threads are not leaking and they are
holding properly. Of course, this pales in comparison to the punishment
when in service...
chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
>
> One thing that is not mentioned very much is the fact that when a cylinder
is bored out, the threads that hold on the head are that much weaker. I had
an engine that had been bored to .015, and saw a black streak running down
from where the head and cylinder are screwed together. Every time an engine
is inspected, a real good look should be done at this location. Turns out
all 4 of my cylinders were bad.
> I know personally of 3 instances where the cylinder head came off in
flight.
> Not only makes a nasty looking cowling, but you need to land right away.
> JimV.
>
>
> Christian Bobka wrote:
>
> Corky,
>
> First they try to see if a honing will do the trick to keep the cylinder
> standard size bore. If that is no good then they try to take the cylinders
> over by .015". Sometimes the cylinder will wear funny so that even after
> going the .015, there is still an OOR (out of round) condition so this is
> still no good. Other times, there is rust. A corrision cell in steel is
> narrow and deep unlike aluminum witch is usually wide and shallow. This
> depth of the corrosion cell in the steel might mean that even with a .015
> grind, they still can't get to the bottom of the cell and clean metal. For
> plating the metal must be perfect. If there is one point that the chrome
> can't stick to, then it is no dice. I saw at sentry an example of what
> happens when you try to plate over this "dead" metal. It doesn't work.
>
> The FAA approved plating procedure at some shops allows an overgrind to
> .020", then plating back to standard bore. the chrome procedure is great
> because you will most likely never have bad bores again as it is so hard
and
> won't normally corrode. I have had cylinders brought back from the dead by
> saying that they were for an Airboat (lots in LA and close cousin to the
> experimetnal airplane). With your experimental (or even under the porposed
> Sport Pilot), certified work is not necessary so why go for the yeallow
tag?
> Tell em it is for an airboat and bring it back from the dead if it is
close.
>
> Remember that these cylinders, yellow tagged, have to take the strain of
an
> A-80 at higher compression because the FAA can't predict the engine they
> will ulitmately be used on, so the certified cylinders are over built for
> the 65 hp of the A-65.
>
> The reference to silver plating is new to new to me but maybe they meant,
as
> someone suggested, they were to cerminil the bore. Either way, go with the
> technology.
>
> On ebay, I have purchased c-85 up to O-200 cylinders (same cylinder pn for
> all). One is cerminil, one is cermichrome, one is channel chrome, and
> another is steel. I hope to run all four types on the same engine and see
> how they fare in comparative use.
>
> Final caution. It is imperitive that you use the piston rings that come
> from ECI. Different cylinder surfaces require different ring material and
> if you use the wrong rings, your cylinders will last 100 hours and
> everything in the engine will be toast. I can't stress this enough. Old
> piston ring PNs and the ones in the continental parts books refer to steel
> bores so you most likely will have to use aftermarket vendors for rings
> compatible with chrome, cerminil, etc.
>
> I have found that with ECI, it is worth calling them to get the scoop.
> Hell, don't be patient.
>
> I have also found with my Cessna 140 cylinders that were sent to them four
> years ago that they inspected and found cracks (that I could see too) in
two
> of the cylinders and then proceeded to just red taged the other two as
> cracked beyond repair without even evidently inspecting them. They wanted
> to sell more new cylinder assemblies. I ended up with a set of new
superior
> airparts millenium cylinders so they shot themselves in the foot.
>
> Being the cheapass airline pilot I am, I took the other two uninspected
> cylinders to the local cylinder shop. No cracks found and they just need a
> hone job to be back in service with a standard bore so I have them on the
> shelf for a future project. Go figure. It obviously pays to get many
> opinions and bead blast off the red dye penetrant and have someone else
> render a second or third opinion.
>
> chris bobka
> (in minneapolis - not sacramento)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
>
>
> >
> > Chris,
> > Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea
> what's
> > going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa
> says
> > only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to
be
> doing
> > with them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a
> guy
> > get?
> > Corky
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chris gomez <gomerair(at)yahoo.com> |
Hey guys,
I just wanted to post a few pics that a friend took for me while at Oshkosh
this year.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chris gomez <gomerair(at)yahoo.com> |
Here is the link that should have been with my last e-mail.
http://mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=142
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Someones computer is sick |
Seems someone who has a computer virus (or worm?) and has my address and the
Piet list address generated a bogus email with MY email name. (robertsjunk)
Since my computer wasn't even on a 3:55AM last night, I'm assuming it wasn't
me. Anyone more computer literate than me please let me know if there's
anything I can do to help stop this.
Robert Haines
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Someones computer is sick |
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
Robert,
Part of this worm is it spoofs other people'e email address when it sends
out its crap. Unfortunately there is really nothing you can do about that.
Just make sure you don't have the worm itself. The best way to do that is
buy a Mac. But that is another topic...
-john-
>
>
> Seems someone who has a computer virus (or worm?) and has my address and the
> Piet list address generated a bogus email with MY email name. (robertsjunk)
> Since my computer wasn't even on a 3:55AM last night, I'm assuming it wasn't
> me. Anyone more computer literate than me please let me know if there's
> anything I can do to help stop this.
>
>
> Robert Haines
>
>
---------------------------------
John Hofmann
Manager, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
7600 Terrace Avenue, Ste. 203
Middleton, WI 53562
Phone: 608-831-3611, ext. 150
Fax: 608-831-5122
Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
"Pietenpol-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: Someones computer is sick |
For anyone that has Norton Antivirus, here's a site by them to get "up to
the minute" anti-virus updates. Just click on the file name. The file name
changes continously to reflect the date. It will automatically update any
of the Norton products on the list that you have.
http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/download/pages/US-N95.html
hope this link goes thru
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Someones computer is sick
>
> Seems someone who has a computer virus (or worm?) and has my address and
the
> Piet list address generated a bogus email with MY email name.
(robertsjunk)
> Since my computer wasn't even on a 3:55AM last night, I'm assuming it
wasn't
> me. Anyone more computer literate than me please let me know if there's
> anything I can do to help stop this.
>
>
> Robert Haines
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brants" <tmbrant(at)usfamily.net> |
| Subject: | Re: piet builders - IN, PA, VA?? |
Hey,
I didn't get a chance to check my email before my trip but I wish I had...
We are actually stuck in Charlottesville, VA because of a massive stationary
front that has covered the Ohio river valley for a few days and looks like
it's going to continue. I actually left the plane there and flew home on
the ol' airliner because VFR doesn't look too good all week. Now I have to
go back there with an IFR pilot and get the plane home to Minnesota.
This trip reminds me of why I'm building a piet... not for long
cross-country trips, but for fun, vfr flying.
Tom B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: piet builders - IN, PA, VA??
>
> How about Culpeper, Virginia? I'll be there all day Saturday. Piet is in
> the hangar.
>
> Gene
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brants" <tmbrant(at)usfamily.net>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: piet builders - IN, PA, VA??
>
>
> >
> > I'm leaving for a trip to Virginia Beach on Thursday of this week,
flying
> a trusty old 172. I plan to be stopping in Knox Indiana, Somerset PA, and
> Suffolk VA. Any pieters near by that wouldn't mind a visit?
> >
> > Tom B.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com> |
Do any of you know of a source for curtiss drain valve seals. It seems you can
buy the valves, but I can't find replacement seals.
Thanks
Phil Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net> |
Phil,
I always got mine at the local FBO. If they have the O ring assortment tray
that most FBO's have they should have the correct size.
Al Latham
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts
>
> Do any of you know of a source for curtiss drain valve seals. It seems
you can buy the valves, but I can't find replacement seals.
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
Curtis stopped selling the seals. An O ring is not an acceptable
replacement. Best to pitch the curtis and get a safe-air valve. It is a
better design. I will save the curtis valve caused plane crash story for
another day.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts
>
> Do any of you know of a source for curtiss drain valve seals. It seems
you can buy the valves, but I can't find replacement seals.
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil Phillips
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
The Curtis valve doesn't use an O-ring. It uses a special D-ring that Curtis
will not sell.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Parts
>
> Phil,
>
> I always got mine at the local FBO. If they have the O ring assortment
tray
> that most FBO's have they should have the correct size.
>
> Al Latham
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Phillips" <pphillips(at)kalama.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Parts
>
>
>
> >
> > Do any of you know of a source for curtiss drain valve seals. It seems
> you can buy the valves, but I can't find replacement seals.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Phil Phillips
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TomTravis(at)aol.com |
I replaced mine with valves from Eagle Fuel Cells and have been very happy
with them. Those old Curtiss valves were a pain because it seemed every time I
checked the fuel I caused a leak.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
I wish the Pieter from Mesa whose last name is four letters beginning with V
to contact me direct. " I'm on final, below minimums, and need some help"
Corky in wet La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Prange Larry J CONT PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing |
Hi Terry,
Sorry that I didn't get back to you right away . . . The Labor Day
weekend/house full of family and all . . . Thanks for the kind words about
my ship! Yea, the struts are the Skytek 6061-T6 aluminum ones. (
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html ) I used the larger ( 3.13" x 1.25" )
ones for the front and the smaller (2.44" x 1" ) ones for the aft. I welded
up end fittings out of 4140 square stock. The strut end fittings average
about a foot or so long. They go in about two inches past where you see the
last bolt.
Larry Prange - Partially conscious, Tuesday morning on the Olympic
Peninsula.
****************************************************************************
****
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sunday outing
In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:56:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca writes:
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=140
**************************************************************
I was just admiring the photos of Larry Prange's Piet. What a beautiful job
Larry! I have a question about thosae struts. Are those streamline
aluminum
with steel tube inside for reinforcement?
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
Larry,
I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route? anything
you would do differently about them in afterthought?
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS
To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:48 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing
Hi Terry,
Sorry that I didn't get back to you right away . . . The Labor Day
weekend/house full of family and all . . . Thanks for the kind words about
my ship! Yea, the struts are the Skytek 6061-T6 aluminum ones. (
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html ) I used the larger ( 3.13" x 1.25" )
ones for the front and the smaller (2.44" x 1" ) ones for the aft. I welded
up end fittings out of 4140 square stock. The strut end fittings average
about a foot or so long. They go in about two inches past where you see the
last bolt.
Larry Prange - Partially conscious, Tuesday morning on the Olympic
Peninsula.
****************************************************************************
****
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sunday outing
In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:56:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca writes:
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID140
**************************************************************
I was just admiring the photos of Larry Prange's Piet. What a beautiful job
Larry! I have a question about thosae struts. Are those streamline
aluminum
with steel tube inside for reinforcement?
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Cours <piet-j(at)moriarti.org> |
| Subject: | Re: uprights next to the spars |
Leon Stefan wrote:
> Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both
> spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on
> the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made
> my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the
> cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove all
> of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of this
> interference and weight savings.
Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them
out altogether, per the original drawings.
I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference
in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a
wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil
down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it
seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard
to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when
attaching the rib to the spar.
I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any
significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it
doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure
zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch
between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted
upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I
don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the
design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to
have surfaced long before now.
- Jeff C.
[1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried
a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints
between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in
tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't
know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data:
don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it
ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some
design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches
basic stress analysis...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
How much weight can be eliminated by routing 1" spars? My GN-1 has solid 1" spars
and seems to me to be overkill. I wonder what I could expect to save in
weight by routing a la Piet.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
GFYJF
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Cours
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars
Leon Stefan wrote:
> Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both
> spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on
> the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made
> my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the
> cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove all
> of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of this
> interference and weight savings.
Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them
out altogether, per the original drawings.
I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference
in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a
wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil
down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it
seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard
to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when
attaching the rib to the spar.
I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any
significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it
doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure
zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch
between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted
upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I
don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the
design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to
have surfaced long before now.
- Jeff C.
[1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried
a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints
between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in
tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't
know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data:
don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it
ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some
design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches
basic stress analysis...
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: routed spars |
A search of the matronics Pietenpol archives indicates 8 (likely) lbs at the
least and 10-15 at the (unlikely) most.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: routed spars
>
> How much weight can be eliminated by routing 1" spars? My GN-1 has solid
1" spars and seems to me to be overkill. I wonder what I could expect to
save in weight by routing a la Piet.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
> -
>
> GFYJF
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Cours
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars
>
>
> Leon Stefan wrote:
> > Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both
> > spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on
> > the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made
> > my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the
> > cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove
all
> > of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of
this
> > interference and weight savings.
>
> Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them
> out altogether, per the original drawings.
>
> I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference
> in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a
> wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil
> down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it
> seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard
> to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when
> attaching the rib to the spar.
>
> I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any
> significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it
> doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure
> zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch
> between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted
> upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I
> don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the
> design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to
> have surfaced long before now.
>
> - Jeff C.
>
> [1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried
> a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints
> between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in
> tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't
> know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data:
> don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it
> ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some
> design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches
> basic stress analysis...
>
>
> > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by
Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more
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<http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: routed spars |
At 28 lbs per cubic foot a Pietenpol will save a little over 5 lbs per
spar by routing.
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com 09/02/03 01:36PM >>>
How much weight can be eliminated by routing 1" spars? My GN-1 has
solid 1" spars and seems to me to be overkill. I wonder what I could
expect to save in weight by routing a la Piet.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
GFYJF
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Cours
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars
Leon Stefan wrote:
> Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both
> spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece
on
> the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I
made
> my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move
the
> cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove
all
> of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of
this
> interference and weight savings.
Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave
them
out altogether, per the original drawings.
I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the
difference
in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably
a
wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to
boil
down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar,
it
seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it
hard
to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom
when
attaching the rib to the spar.
I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any
significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar,
it
doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure
zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue
patch
between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted
upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside.
I
don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the
design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems
to
have surfaced long before now.
- Jeff C.
[1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I
tried
a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints
between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in
tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I
didn't
know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of
data:
don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it
ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through
some
design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches
basic stress analysis...
=
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by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For
more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit
<http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: routed spars |
thanks.....
does anyone have a picture or two or three they could send me of a routed spar?
DJ Vegh
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Cardinal
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars
At 28 lbs per cubic foot a Pietenpol will save a little over 5 lbs per
spar by routing.
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com 09/02/03 01:36PM >>>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: routed spars |
DJ,
I routed my spars on 41CC.Never worked so hard, made a bigger mess and
accomplished so little as that operation. This time my spars are 3/4 as before
and
they will remain 3/4. I'll save some weight elsewhere. Less than 4 lbs if I
remember. Just my 1 cent thrown in but I still remember that messy task.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> |
I have had my plans now for about a year and am finally getting started. I decided
to start building wing ribs because I can do that in my dorm. I started on
the wing rib jig today and am looking for suggestions from you'll on finishing
the jig and starting on the ribs.
Thanks
Will
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce - I am about to never use them again. |
In a message dated 8/27/03 3:12:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
aircamper(at)imagedv.com writes:
> So then I say, "maybe all those other cables are good and I got a bad set.
> Just send me a good set." She says no joy. sales are final I am stuck
with
> them.
>
> What the hell?? I've spent about $3,500 with them and now they want to
lose
> me over $70?
>
> DJ
> www.imagedv.com
You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling.
Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty or the
like.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Getting Started |
Decide on your spar and build your ribs to suit. If I were to build another
one, I would give strong consideration to the solid 3/4" spar. No glueing,
no routing....simple.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Getting Started
>
> I have had my plans now for about a year and am finally getting started. I
decided to start building wing ribs because I can do that in my dorm. I
started on the wing rib jig today and am looking for suggestions from you'll
on finishing the jig and starting on the ribs.
>
> Thanks
> Will
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables |
to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly
unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not
given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't
even meet the cables rated strength.
It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was
frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom
made...
You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact
paying for a cable you can use not one you can't.
Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some
of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I
think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that
AS&S would even sell them to me.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
------------------------
> You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling.
> Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty
or the
> like.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables |
DJ -
I grasp the consequences entirely.
I had a rudder cable half frayed-through from friction in my Cub. If it
have frayed the other half, I wouldn't have been able to land, at least the
way I'd like to.
There, but for the Grace of God, go I.
These people aren't just selling cable, they're selling AIRCRAFT cable.
It's implied in their name. I can get clothesline cable at my local
hardware store for a lot cheaper, so you're paying dearly for something,
even if it is just the manufacturer's lawyers. I'm with you; stick to your
guns.
Have you got the new cable yet?
Jim Ash
>
>to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly
>unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not
>given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't
>even meet the cables rated strength.
>
>It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was
>frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom
>made...
>
>You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact
>paying for a cable you can use not one you can't.
>
>Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some
>of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I
>think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that
>AS&S would even sell them to me.
>
>DJ Vegh
>N74DV
>Mesa, AZ
>www.imagedv.com/aircamper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Prange Larry J CONT PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
Hey DJ!
I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very
pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is the
number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might decrease
the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away
when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the guys
on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how
many bolts would be an adequate number . . .
For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the other)
lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very
thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the square
stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through.
After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the heat,
to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt.
I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of six
foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small
streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and
instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price.
- Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . . .
Larry Prange - NX1929A
********************************************************
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Larry,
I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route?
anything
you would do differently about them in afterthought?
DJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
Thanks Larry.
I also purchased the Skytek jury strut kit. I like the streamline extrusion they
send with it.... looks good.
I'm not sure how I will terminate the ends on my struts but your method sounds
good.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS
To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com'
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:06 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Hey DJ!
I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very
pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is the
number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might decrease
the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away
when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the guys
on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how
many bolts would be an adequate number . . .
For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the other)
lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very
thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the square
stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through.
After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the heat,
to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt.
I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of six
foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small
streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and
instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price.
- Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . . .
Larry Prange - NX1929A
********************************************************
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Larry,
I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route?
anything
you would do differently about them in afterthought?
DJ
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables |
I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you
it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if
Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell.
The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches
people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check
your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper
thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and
defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not
mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your
butt in the air.
Chris T.
Sacramento, CA
Quoting DJ Vegh :
>
> to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly
> unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not
> given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't
> even meet the cables rated strength.
>
> It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was
> frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom
> made...
>
> You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact
> paying for a cable you can use not one you can't.
>
> Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some
> of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I
> think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that
> AS&S would even sell them to me.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
> ------------------------
>
> > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling.
> > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty
> or the
> > like.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dpilot <dpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
Remember, the only thing that your lift struts do is keep your flying wires tight.
After you get flying you would be OK without any struts
JimV.
DJ Vegh wrote:
Thanks Larry.
I also purchased the Skytek jury strut kit. I like the streamline extrusion they
send with it.... looks good.
I'm not sure how I will terminate the ends on my struts but your method sounds
good.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Hey DJ!
I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very
pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is the
number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might decrease
the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away
when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the guys
on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how
many bolts would be an adequate number . . .
For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the other)
lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very
thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the square
stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through.
After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the heat,
to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt.
I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of six
foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small
streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and
instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price.
- Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . . .
Larry Prange - NX1929A
********************************************************
From: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Larry,
I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route?
anything
you would do differently about them in afterthought?
DJ
=
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Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information
on an anti-virus email solution, visit .
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dpilot <dpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables |
Would someone tell where these cables are?
I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold the loop
together.
It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time.
JimV.
wrote:
I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you
it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if
Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell.
The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches
people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check
your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper
thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and
defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not
mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your
butt in the air.
Chris T.
Sacramento, CA
Quoting DJ Vegh :
>
> to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly
> unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not
> given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't
> even meet the cables rated strength.
>
> It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was
> frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom
> made...
>
> You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact
> paying for a cable you can use not one you can't.
>
> Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some
> of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I
> think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that
> AS&S would even sell them to me.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
> ------------------------
>
> > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling.
> > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty
> or the
> > like.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables |
Jim,
I am doing all my cables with swaged ends and fork fittings. More costly? yes,
but I like the clean look is provides.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: dpilot
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables
Would someone tell where these cables are?
I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold the loop
together.
It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time.
JimV.
wrote:
I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you
it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if
Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell.
The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches
people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check
your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper
thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and
defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not
mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your
butt in the air.
Chris T.
Sacramento, CA
Quoting DJ Vegh :
>
> to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly
> unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not
> given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't
> even meet the cables rated strength.
>
> It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was
> frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom
> made...
>
> You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact
> paying for a cable you can use not one you can't.
>
> Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some
> of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I
> think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that
> AS&S would even sell them to me.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
> ------------------------
>
> > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling.
> > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty
> or the
> > like.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net> |
| Subject: | Model A questions |
Model A Guys,
I pulled the heads off of the pair of A's that I bought. One is +.080 and the
other is +.100
bore wise. What is the largest overbore that you can go and is it considered safe
for aircraft use.
I've dealt with thin cylinder walls on VW engines before and I don't want to get
into that. One car
guy told me that when they get to .080 he has them sleeved, has anyone gone this
route or is it
necessary? I had an airplane guy tell me that this wasn't necessary due to the
fact that you
can overbore to 3/16", I had heard .125 but not 3/16".
I'll most likely pull them down and have the cranks and rods magnafluxed and blocks
hot tanked
and checked for cracks and then set them aside till later on this winter. Also
need to come up with
a set of head studs as one didn't have any.
Meeting with a guy this week about doing my Menasco bearings, will hit him up for
these also.
Al Latham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dpilot <dpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Model A questions |
I'm not a Model A person (T's are my cup of 'T')
But I would look at a catalog from one of the speciality parts houses, and see
if they offer a special set of high strength studs.
I've heard the "A" boys talk about them.
Ask Grant MacClaren.
JimV.
Al Latham wrote:
Model A Guys,
I pulled the heads off of the pair of A's that I bought. One is +.080 and the other
is +.100
bore wise. What is the largest overbore that you can go and is it considered safe
for aircraft use.
I've dealt with thin cylinder walls on VW engines before and I don't want to get
into that. One car
guy told me that when they get to .080 he has them sleeved, has anyone gone this
route or is it
necessary? I had an airplane guy tell me that this wasn't necessary due to the
fact that you
can overbore to 3/16", I had heard .125 but not 3/16".
I'll most likely pull them down and have the cranks and rods magnafluxed and blocks
hot tanked
and checked for cracks and then set them aside till later on this winter. Also
need to come up with
a set of head studs as one didn't have any.
Meeting with a guy this week about doing my Menasco bearings, will hit him up for
these also.
Al Latham
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Model A questions |
In a message dated 9/3/03 5:42:05 PM Central Daylight Time, geebeed(at)grm.net
writes:
<< What is the largest overbore that you can go and is it considered safe for
aircraft use. >>
The place that did the babbit on mine, told me a Model A engine can be bored
.125" over. I think that is pretty extreme, but you can get aftermarket
pistons that size. Mine was .060" over. I would suggest you use forged pistons,
instead of the cast alum pistons, and drill the crank and go with a pressure
oiling system. These stock engines have to opporate at 80% power, or more, just
to maintain level flight.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
That "Piet for Sale" message as shown on the digest today is in error. That
message was sent to the net several weeks ago, not yesterday. Someone is
messing around with my computer signals.
I received a message yesterday stating I sent a message with a virus to an
address I 've never heard of. I don't know enough about this machine to correct
it but believe me something stranger that ole Corky is going on
Ole Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
Gentlemen,
Bob Whittier is putting together an article with photos from Brodhead.
He has pictures of Piets, two of which need need the ID's of the
owners.
One is the Piet with the uncowled A-65 motor, color of the aircraft is
red.
The other is a Cont. powered Piet, colors are red and white. Top half
of the cowl and the spinner are white. The inner 6 inches of each prop
blade are white. The eyebrows appear to be white but that is unverified.
I think this may be Chuck Gantzer's plane but I'm not sure.
Skip Gadd, or anyone else on the list, can you tell me the names of the
owners of these two airplanes?
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Model A questions |
There are pistons available for the Model A up to 0.125 oversize, although I
remember hearing somewhere that it may not be the best idea. As I recall,
the rule of thumb was after 0.080, it was a good idea to have them sleeved.
Regardless, I haven't heard anything negative about sleeves, actually
sleeves were always discussed to me in a positive manner. It just seems it
would require additional machine work. I've always turned to Mac's or
Snyders catalogs for help with these questions, but don't have one in front
of me at this time.
Obviously, all my information is not from personal experience or
experimentation, so to a scientist, it wouldn't be worth much.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
P.S. - I do have a spare Model A engine I considered redoing for a Super
Ace, but I have since dropped that project. The block is in acceptable
condition (at 0.020 or 0.040 over, can't remember) but one cylinder is
sleeved due to some nasty event unknown to me. The engine is available.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Greg,
Believe the red and white Cont. Piet is Chuck Gantzer's, he will probably
chime in and let you know.
I remember the other uncowled Cont. Piet, parked on the end a couple down
from Larry Williams. I will check my pictures at home and let you know
tonight, if no one else has answered before then.
Skip
PS The pictures of your and Dales Piet are great!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Except in turbulence. Then they keep your wings from folding.
Steve (stating the obvious... very obvious in gusty winds) E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dpilot
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Remember, the only thing that your lift struts do is keep your flying
wires tight.
After you get flying you would be OK without any struts
JimV.
DJ Vegh wrote:
Thanks Larry.
I also purchased the Skytek jury strut kit. I like the streamline
extrusion they send with it.... looks good.
I'm not sure how I will terminate the ends on my struts but your method
sounds good.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Hey DJ!
I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very
pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is
the
number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might
decrease
the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away
when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the
guys
on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how
many bolts would be an adequate number . . .
For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the
other)
lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very
thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the
square
stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through.
After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the
heat,
to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt.
I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of
six
foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small
streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and
instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price.
- Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . .
.
Larry Prange - NX1929A
********************************************************
From: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
Larry,
I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route?
anything
you would do differently about them in afterthought?
DJ
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> |
Has anyone else notice this?
The drawing labeled Inside Center Strut Fitting on Drawing No. 1, 1933 Improved
Air Camper plans, has four holes: the first is 5/16th of an inch from the
bottom; the second is 1-3/8th of an inch from the first; the third is 1 inch
from the second; the fourth is 3/4th of an inch from the third.
Now, look on Drawing No. 6 at the section entitled Complete Wing Strut Details
for the Improved Air Camper this fitting is shown with the first and second
holes spaced at 1-5/8th of an inch apart not the 1-3/8th of an inch on Drawing
No. 1.
I think I will add the 1/4 of an inch between the holes, as it seems to make
the fitting fit my fuselage better.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
-------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Additional question |
For Bob Whittier's article I also need the city and state locations of
the owners of the planes in his pictures.
Where do the following people live:
Larry Williams
Jim Kinsella
Chuck Gantzer
Name and location of the owner of the uncowled, A-65 powered
Pietenpol.
Thanks, Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Additional question |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Where is the article going to appear?
Stevee.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Cardinal
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Additional question
For Bob Whittier's article I also need the city and state locations of
the owners of the planes in his pictures.
Where do the following people live:
Larry Williams
Jim Kinsella
Chuck Gantzer
Name and location of the owner of the uncowled, A-65 powered
Pietenpol.
Thanks, Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Additional question |
Most likely EAA's Experimenter. Bob writes a monthly column and there is
usually a mention of Pietenpols after Brodhead.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Additional question
>
> Where is the article going to appear?
>
> Stevee.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
> Cardinal
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Additional question
>
>
>
> For Bob Whittier's article I also need the city and state locations of
> the owners of the planes in his pictures.
>
> Where do the following people live:
>
> Larry Williams
> Jim Kinsella
> Chuck Gantzer
> Name and location of the owner of the uncowled, A-65 powered
> Pietenpol.
>
> Thanks, Greg Cardinal
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 9/4/03 8:22:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
gcardinal(at)startribune.com writes:
<< The other is a Cont. powered Piet, colors are red and white. Top half
of the cowl and the spinner are white. The inner 6 inches of each prop
blade are white. The eyebrows appear to be white but that is unverified.
I think this may be Chuck Gantzer's plane but I'm not sure. >>
Greg,
Yes, I think that would be my plane. The whole nose section where the engine
sticks thru, is white...eyebrows, valve covers, skull cap spinner, exhaust
pipes, and the inboard portion of the prop. Then the white blends into two
white stripes down the red sides. My plane is a chameleon of sorts. Front view
shows a red airplane, with red leading edges of the wing and stab and white
nose. The bottom of the wing, stab, and fuse is all silver, so flying overhead
it is silver. I put red & silver starburst on the top of the wing and stab,
citabria style, so from above it looks like red & silver. That way a plane
above me will think - "Hey, that's an airbatic plane down there...he might pitch
up into a loop...I better move further away !!"
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
Wichita, Kansas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNarry" <jmcnarry(at)escape.ca> |
I like the colour scheme justification Chuck. Especially the starburst
to scare away faster planes.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft ID
In a message dated 9/4/03 8:22:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
gcardinal(at)startribune.com writes:
<< The other is a Cont. powered Piet, colors are red and white. Top half
of the cowl and the spinner are white. The inner 6 inches of each prop
blade are white. The eyebrows appear to be white but that is
unverified.
I think this may be Chuck Gantzer's plane but I'm not sure. >>
Greg,
Yes, I think that would be my plane. The whole nose section where the
engine
sticks thru, is white...eyebrows, valve covers, skull cap spinner,
exhaust
pipes, and the inboard portion of the prop. Then the white blends into
two
white stripes down the red sides. My plane is a chameleon of sorts.
Front view
shows a red airplane, with red leading edges of the wing and stab and
white
nose. The bottom of the wing, stab, and fuse is all silver, so flying
overhead
it is silver. I put red & silver starburst on the top of the wing and
stab,
citabria style, so from above it looks like red & silver. That way a
plane
above me will think - "Hey, that's an airbatic plane down there...he
might pitch
up into a loop...I better move further away !!"
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
Wichita, Kansas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 9/4/2003 10:29:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
jmcnarry(at)escape.ca writes:
> I like the colour scheme justification Chuck. Especially the starburst
> to scare away faster planes
AND UN-SUSPECTING HAWKS!!!!
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CraigAlanCarter(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Strut/Gear Attachment Fittings |
I have just completed the strut/gear attachment fittings. I have some concern
that the fore and aft weld across the fitting along the line of the bend may
be a weak point. Basically, are you not relying on the equivalent of a welded
joint to carry the strut loads?
In addition, I ended up with the bolt holes on the bottom of the fitting
being very close to the end of the Ash 1X2 crosspiece. I can get the inside "L"
shaped bracket on and the nuts, but it is still very close. Would this present
a
weak spot since the holes are so close to the end of the board? I though I
would put on the "chicken straps" to compensate.
Thanks for any input,
CraigAlanCarter(at)AOL.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | More pics posted |
Hi Piet folks.
I just posted some more pics of my project. They are some of the parts I
have acquired or bought.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=143
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | AS&S - cable pictures |
per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the poor
manufacture of the cables.
keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can see the
tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy swages
and these are not it.
Would anyone here trust these on major components??
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ I've been sailing and working on sailboats for 30 years and I've
considered useing sailboat cables on my Piet because the shop that makes the
cables up is 5 miles from me and their workmanship is top notch ( sailboat
cables carry unbelieveable loads). But I didn't because they were not "
aircraft" fittings. I have never seen such sorry swages as the ones you just
posted. It looks like they have used a fitting one size bigger than the
cable. The top edge of the fitting should be compressed tight enough to the
cable to be almost water tight. Yours look like you could stick a toothpick
between the cable and the fitting!!! And the tool marks!! it looks like they
used a swageing die that matches the size of the cable...not the oversized
fitting. You're right..do not use those cables for anything but maybe tying
up your dog. You need to send those pictures to someone at ACS!
>From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:19:22 -0700
>
>
>per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the poor
>manufacture of the cables.
>
>keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
>
>Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can see the
>tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy swages
>and these are not it.
>
>Would anyone here trust these on major components??
>
>http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
>
>DJ Vegh
>N74DV
>Mesa, AZ
>www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
>-
>
>
Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ,
Send them back and make them do it again. Just from the pictures, they are
unairworthy.
Chris bobka
A&P with Inspection Authorization
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the poor
> manufacture of the cables.
>
> keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
>
> Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can see
the
> tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy
swages
> and these are not it.
>
> Would anyone here trust these on major components??
>
> http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> -
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
And specify that the cables must meet the requirements of AC 43.13
Side note: I had cables swaged at a boat shop, there were tooling marks
but the dimensions were proper. Pull testing, per AC 43.13, was
satisfactory so I kept 'em.
Greg Cardinal
>>> bobka(at)compuserve.com 09/05/03 09:40AM >>>
DJ,
Send them back and make them do it again. Just from the pictures, they
are
unairworthy.
Chris bobka
A&P with Inspection Authorization
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the
poor
> manufacture of the cables.
>
> keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
yesterday.
>
> Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can
see
the
> tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy
swages
> and these are not it.
>
> Would anyone here trust these on major components??
>
> http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> -
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CraigAlanCarter(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Gear/Strut Fitting |
Dear Arthur:
Thanks for the response. My fittings measure about 121 degrees. I did not
have problems with cracking, but did use a pretty large bend radius. I don't
think the piece that has the 121 degree bend will carry much tension load, but
the
bottom piece will. That is why I a worried about the fore and aft weld at the
bend line (combined with the weld around the 1" hinge lug) ruining the
integrity of the fitting. I figured the 121 degree bend by mocking up a spar over
the fuselage and measuring out to where the strut will attach on the upper end.
I figured this with the wing 2" higher than on the plans. With regard to the
main wheel placement- I have read what seems like hundreds of Matronics posts
and have decided to go with the main wheel center 1" forward of the plans. My
method of deciding this was completely unscientific, and I hope it works out. I
am using a split gear as per the Improved Aircamper plans, with brakes.
Thanks Again,
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
... as long as you don't like the dog.
I''d send them back with a copy of the page from 43.13 (Paragraph 196 in my
copy). Highlight the line in figure 4.3 for your cable. Technically, the
figure shows shank diameter, not maximum shank diameter, but c'mon. Either
way this one doesn't cut it.
Send them direct to Jim Irwin, with a copy of the caliper JPG from your web
site. Ask him in your letter if he would fly with this cable (You get extra
brownie points if you ask him if he's suicidal).
Maybe they just don't have a copy of AC 43.13. I think I bought my last
copy from them years back, and maybe they're still out of stock.
I hope this isn't hold things up for you; it's been getting dark noticably
earlier here lately.
Jim Ash
...
>fitting. You're right..do not use those cables for anything but maybe tying
>up your dog. You need to send those pictures to someone at ACS!
>
> >From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:19:22 -0700
> >
> >
> >per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the poor
> >manufacture of the cables.
> >
> >keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
> >
> >Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can see the
> >tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy swages
> >and these are not it.
> >
> >Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> >
> >http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> >
> >DJ Vegh
> >N74DV
> >Mesa, AZ
> >www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >
> >
> >-
> >
> >
>
>Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Cours <piet-j(at)moriarti.org> |
| Subject: | spruce suppliers |
Hi, everyone -
The work table is done enough that I can start ordering some spruce. Any
recommendations for suppliers, especially ones on or near the west
coast? It looks like there are some very interesting ones in the
midwest, but I'd like to see if there's a way to shorten the shipping
distance.
thanks very much,
Jeff C
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: spruce suppliers |
Jeff,
I've had excellent service and quality from Edensaw in Port Townsend,
Washington. My first Piet I used Douglas Fir and for Repiet I ordered Sitka Spruce,
6
pcs 2X6, 16 ft long. More than enough for a Piet. You will have to have use
of a large table saw for riping, large joiner and planer. Cost was $8.50 bd ft.
If you calculate the cost by bd ft of the spruce in the supply catalogs you
will pay in excess of $25. Freight was about $125 from Wa to La.
If interested, contact me direct for the man to contact etc.
Corky in La
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Cours <piet-j(at)moriarti.org> |
| Subject: | Re: spruce suppliers |
Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
> I've had excellent service and quality from Edensaw in Port Townsend,
> Washington. My first Piet I used Douglas Fir and for Repiet I
> ordered Sitka Spruce, 6 pcs 2X6, 16 ft long. More than enough for a
> Piet. You will have to have use of a large table saw for riping,
> large joiner and planer.
Interesting thought. Thanks, Corky, I may wind up contacting you for
that info. I'm going to have to think about it for a bit, though -- not
sure I could fit a large table saw and a joiner/planer in my shop.
Hmm. I wonder how hard it'd be to mill the lumber with a bandsaw and a
long-ish hand plane. Might be tough to keep capstrip accurate...
- Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> |
| Subject: | John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
-----Original Message-----
From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
Actually, "John" has a point.
I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of
mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
problems.
I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
changing the plans.
JimV.
John Ford wrote:
I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
(have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
heart...
John
John Ford
john(at)indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
who
told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
he sends me an email today saying
" I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
have
restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
two
years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
less
time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
(explative
deleted) are you?"
Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
do
spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
you
folks on this list.
I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
who
likes to share with others.
I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
Piet in
2 years.
I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
may
generate.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
Don't know about Jim, but I used #8 brass screws ( guess the #7 went out in
the '30's). and I did put on jury struts.
And I'll be in the skys tomorrow early AM.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spruce suppliers |
To save a TON of time, and have a super accurite piet,
a delta 12 inch table top planer for $400 will plane
everything from the spars to the rib material. I
wouldn't even dream of doing the project without it.
with a block plane its all hand fitting, with a small
planer the wood thicknesses are accurite enough to
make all cuts at once, production is the word.
Del
--- Jeff Cours wrote:
>
>
> Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
> > I've had excellent service and quality from
> Edensaw in Port Townsend,
> > Washington. My first Piet I used Douglas Fir and
> for Repiet I
> > ordered Sitka Spruce, 6 pcs 2X6, 16 ft long. More
> than enough for a
> > Piet. You will have to have use of a large table
> saw for riping,
> > large joiner and planer.
>
> Interesting thought. Thanks, Corky, I may wind up
> contacting you for
> that info. I'm going to have to think about it for a
> bit, though -- not
> sure I could fit a large table saw and a
> joiner/planer in my shop.
>
> Hmm. I wonder how hard it'd be to mill the lumber
> with a bandsaw and a
> long-ish hand plane. Might be tough to keep capstrip
> accurate...
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ,
I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see what they pull
tested to...
Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
Al Latham
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the poor
> manufacture of the cables.
>
> keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
>
> Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can see
the
> tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy
swages
> and these are not it.
>
> Would anyone here trust these on major components??
>
> http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> -
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such testing.
Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> DJ,
>
> I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see what they
pull
> tested to...
>
> Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
>
> Al Latham
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> >
> > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the poor
> > manufacture of the cables.
> >
> > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
> >
> > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can see
> the
> > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy
> swages
> > and these are not it.
> >
> > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> >
> > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> >
> > DJ Vegh
> > N74DV
> > Mesa, AZ
> > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net> |
| Subject: | swedge question??? |
Guys,
I have a question although it is off topic as far as Pietenpols are concerned.
I'm about waist deep in the restoration of a Meyer's Little Toot that was built
in the mid sixties and last flew in 1983.
When I uncovered the wings I found that they had used music wire for the drag
and anti-drag wires, I know...SO WHAT... The wire didn't get my attention but the
use of Nicropress sleeves instead of the wrapped wire ferules is what struck me
as odd. I have never seen anything like it before and am wondering if anyone else
has seen this type of set-up. My first instant was to say no way would I fly this
thing. But the plane has over 1500 hours on it and has a Lyc.180, it's been raced
and extensive acro time, with no signs of slippage. Whoever made them up must
of spent a lifetime forming the ends as they fit the thimble as good as any cable.
Reguardless I'm not putting them back into service as there is some light corrosion
on them and I can't clean them up inside the sleeves. I'll go back to 1/19 cable
as
per original or maybe go $$$wires.
Al Latham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "baileys" <baileys(at)ktis.net> |
I haven't started construction so I'm spending a lot of armchair time with
the plans.
My question is; what is the correct amount of washout and how do you
establish it? Is it done when the putting the ribs on the spars or while
mating the wings to the fuselage? Also what serves as a reference point?
Bob B. - Missouri
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing washout |
I'm not sure the Piet starts out with washout. If it needs any, though, you
adjust the strut lengths to give it any washout necessary. Believe me, the
wing is flexible enough to accomodate any twist you need without making any
alterations to the ribs themselves.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "baileys" <baileys(at)ktis.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing washout
>
> I haven't started construction so I'm spending a lot of armchair time with
> the plans.
> My question is; what is the correct amount of washout and how do you
> establish it? Is it done when the putting the ribs on the spars or while
> mating the wings to the fuselage? Also what serves as a reference point?
> Bob B. - Missouri
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
Jim, this ain't right. The Piet does not have "flying wires." The struts
are there to carry the weight of the fuselage. The wires between the struts
are drag and anti-drag wires, just like the ones in the wing itself, and the
airplane would not fly fine without struts. It could, however, probably do
quite well without one or two of the drag wires.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
>
> Remember, the only thing that your lift struts do is keep your flying
wires tight.
> After you get flying you would be OK without any struts
> JimV.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net> |
| Subject: | a little late landing last night........ |
>
> Hey Mike,
>
> I think you get a 1/2 hour after sunset & before sunrise ("civil twlight")
> for VFR (before you need the Nav. lights) -- they UL guys need to be down by
> sunset! ;-)
Actually, no:
1. CFR 91.209 states from sunset to sunrise aircraft lights are needed.
2. CFR 61.57 night currency for the pilot is from 1 hour after sunset to 1
hour before sunrise.
The wisdom of the FAA apparently changed FAR's to CFR's (Code of Federal
Regulations), and I'm sure all that paper work kept someone's job.
You can get there from the www.faa.gov site through a couple of links, but
the direct link to the regs, which allow you to browse by part # and
paragraph is below. Really a neat use of the net for the regs.
www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfrv2_00.html
As a somewhat humorous aside, the tower at DTN on two different flights
when flight testing Corky's Piet, asked me if I had lights since I had
arrived back at the aiport slightly after sunset. :) My reply was, 'not
yet'.
...Edwin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj(at)shreve.net ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
BUT..... if the drag anti-drag wires are attached not to the struts
themselves, but to the fuselage fitting and wing spar fitting then it could
be true that the wires would also hold some lift load
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
>
> Jim, this ain't right. The Piet does not have "flying wires." The struts
> are there to carry the weight of the fuselage. The wires between the
struts
> are drag and anti-drag wires, just like the ones in the wing itself, and
the
> airplane would not fly fine without struts. It could, however, probably
do
> quite well without one or two of the drag wires.
>
> Gene
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
>
>
> >
> > Remember, the only thing that your lift struts do is keep your flying
> wires tight.
> > After you get flying you would be OK without any struts
> > JimV.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts |
You'd better make them bigger than the 3/32" the plans call for, if you're
planning on them carrying much in the way of flight loads. Gene's right -
the struts carry the flight loads, the wires are just for drag and anti-drag
bracing.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
BUT..... if the drag anti-drag wires are attached not to the struts
themselves, but to the fuselage fitting and wing spar fitting then it could
be true that the wires would also hold some lift load
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
>
> Jim, this ain't right. The Piet does not have "flying wires." The struts
> are there to carry the weight of the fuselage. The wires between the
struts
> are drag and anti-drag wires, just like the ones in the wing itself, and
the
> airplane would not fly fine without struts. It could, however, probably
do
> quite well without one or two of the drag wires.
>
> Gene
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts
>
>
> >
> > Remember, the only thing that your lift struts do is keep your flying
> wires tight.
> > After you get flying you would be OK without any struts
> > JimV.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gear/Strut Fitting |
craig,
which plans do you refer to?
chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: <CraigAlanCarter(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gear/Strut Fitting
>
> Dear Arthur:
> Thanks for the response. My fittings measure about 121 degrees. I did not
> have problems with cracking, but did use a pretty large bend radius. I
don't
> think the piece that has the 121 degree bend will carry much tension load,
but the
> bottom piece will. That is why I a worried about the fore and aft weld at
the
> bend line (combined with the weld around the 1" hinge lug) ruining the
> integrity of the fitting. I figured the 121 degree bend by mocking up a
spar over
> the fuselage and measuring out to where the strut will attach on the upper
end.
> I figured this with the wing 2" higher than on the plans. With regard to
the
> main wheel placement- I have read what seems like hundreds of Matronics
posts
> and have decided to go with the main wheel center 1" forward of the plans.
My
> method of deciding this was completely unscientific, and I hope it works
out. I
> am using a split gear as per the Improved Aircamper plans, with brakes.
> Thanks Again,
> Craig
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CraigAlanCarter(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Gear/Strut Fitting |
Chris,
The plans I have are the "Improved Aircamper" dated 1-25-34 by Orrin Hoopman.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ,
Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated testing
jig.
Greg Cardinal
5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
Minneapolis, MN 55417
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such
testing.
>
> Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> -
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> >
> > DJ,
> >
> > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see what they
> pull
> > tested to...
> >
> > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> >
> > Al Latham
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >
> >
> > >
> > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the
poor
> > > manufacture of the cables.
> > >
> > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them yesterday.
> > >
> > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can
see
> > the
> > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy
> > swages
> > > and these are not it.
> > >
> > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > >
> > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > >
> > > DJ Vegh
> > > N74DV
> > > Mesa, AZ
> > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
sweet! I'll take you up on that offer. I'll send them on Monday.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> DJ,
> Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated testing
> jig.
>
> Greg Cardinal
> 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> Minneapolis, MN 55417
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> >
> > I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such
> testing.
> >
> > Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
> >
> > DJ Vegh
> > N74DV
> > Mesa, AZ
> > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >
> >
> > >
> > > DJ,
> > >
> > > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see what they
> > pull
> > > tested to...
> > >
> > > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> > >
> > > Al Latham
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > >
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the
> poor
> > > > manufacture of the cables.
> > > >
> > > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
yesterday.
> > > >
> > > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you can
> see
> > > the
> > > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper airworthy
> > > swages
> > > > and these are not it.
> > > >
> > > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > > >
> > > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > > >
> > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > N74DV
> > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing washout |
In a message dated 9/6/03 8:40:23 AM Central Daylight Time, baileys(at)ktis.net
writes:
<< I haven't started construction so I'm spending a lot of armchair time with
the plans.
My question is; what is the correct amount of washout and how do you
establish it? Is it done when the putting the ribs on the spars or while
mating the wings to the fuselage? Also what serves as a reference point?
Bob B. - Missouri >>
Bob,
Washout is a twist in the wing, where the leading edge of the outboard
portion of the wing is twisted to a lower angle of incidence than the inboard
portion, causing the inboard portion to reach it's Critical Angle of Attack before
the outboard portion. Angle of incidence is the angle between the Mean
Aerodynamic Chord (MAC) of the wing, and the longitude 0 of the fuselage - on the
Piet it's the top of the longerons at the cockpits. On the Pietenpol the angle
of incidence is set with the difference in length of the cabane struts - the
front ones are 1" longer than the back ones, making about a 3 angle of
positive incidence. The purpose of washout is to ensure the inboard portion of
the
wing is location where the stall begins, leaving the outboard aileron portion
to be the last part of the wing to stall, thus maintaining aileron control
until the entire wing is stalled.
Now comes the kicker: On a hearshey bar wing - constant chord, straight wing
-, the stall naturally occurs at the inboard portion of the wing, therefore
washout is not really required. Just rig the entire wing at the same angle of
incidence as the inboard portion, where the cabane struts are, by the length
of the lift struts. Although, it could be recomended to err the tips toward a
lower angle of incidence. The wing twists easily, till the lift struts &
cables are installed. On wings where the leading edge is swept, or the trailing
edge is swept forward (tapered wings), or the entire wing is swept (like on
jets) is where washout really is needed, because sweeping the wing back causes
the tips to stall first.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Sealed Gap Empenage Flight Surfaces |
Here is an area where I varied from the plans just a little, but I didn't
want to endorse the change till I had some flight time on the plane. Curse
me all you purists !! We all know how important it is to seal the gaps at the
ailerons. I used the plans barn door hinges, and sealed the aileron gaps with
a strip of 3" fabric tape, before painting.
Now, I just didn't like the big gaps at the hinges of the elevators
(flippers) and rudder. I used the same method I used when building model planes,
I
call it a 'Double Monocoat Hinge'. I used Vi Kappler aluminum hinges, and
after building and fitting the control surfaces, before covering, I glued a
triangle piece of bulsa wood to the trailing edge of the horiz & vert stabs, and
the leading edge of the flippers and rudder, leaving a gap of 1/4" between the
tips of these triangle pieces, in line with and the same diameter as the hinge
pins. I then covered all the flight surfaces in the conventional manner,
assembled the flight surfaces with the pins, then glued a fabric strip down each
slope of the triangle piece, across the gap, then up the other triangle piece,
and trimmed it. I did this on the top and the bottom, so two layers of
fabric bridge the 1/4" gap, right on the hinge line.
Advantages:
1) It seals any air from leaking at the hinge, when the flight surface is
deflected, therefore less deflection is needed, thus reducing drag.
2) It is a secondary attachment of the flight surfaces, in the event of a
hinge failure, and keeps the hinge pins from working out, even if the cotter key
is gone.
3) It prevents any sticks or stuff from becoming lodged in the hinge area,
when operating out of unimproved strips.
4) Hawks don't have any gaps in their tail.
Chuck G.
I could e-mail directly to anyone wishing to see a picture
68 hrs flight time
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ,
We will mark the cables at the point they enter the end fitting so we can
tell if they slip. We will then test them to 60% of the rated cable
strength. Keep in mind that this test WILL elongate any thimbles that are
installed; this is a good thing because the initial stretching is done
before the plane flies. This will save some adjusting later on.
Greg Cardinal
Ph. 612 721-6235
----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> sweet! I'll take you up on that offer. I'll send them on Monday.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> -
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> >
> > DJ,
> > Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated testing
> > jig.
> >
> > Greg Cardinal
> > 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> > Minneapolis, MN 55417
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such
> > testing.
> > >
> > > Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
> > >
> > > DJ Vegh
> > > N74DV
> > > Mesa, AZ
> > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > DJ,
> > > >
> > > > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see what
they
> > > pull
> > > > tested to...
> > > >
> > > > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> > > >
> > > > Al Latham
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the
> > poor
> > > > > manufacture of the cables.
> > > > >
> > > > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
> yesterday.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you
can
> > see
> > > > the
> > > > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper
airworthy
> > > > swages
> > > > > and these are not it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > N74DV
> > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
Gentlemen -
I'm curious about the pull test results, too, but where is this going? If
these cables don't pull clean, then sending them back is the way to go.
But what if they do? Are you going to consider using them or are you still
going to send them back? This is one of those times where you might not
want the answer you're looking for, so maybe you don't want to ask the
question.
Jim Ash
>
>DJ,
>We will mark the cables at the point they enter the end fitting so we can
>tell if they slip. We will then test them to 60% of the rated cable
>strength. Keep in mind that this test WILL elongate any thimbles that are
>installed; this is a good thing because the initial stretching is done
>before the plane flies. This will save some adjusting later on.
>
>Greg Cardinal
>Ph. 612 721-6235
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> >
> > sweet! I'll take you up on that offer. I'll send them on Monday.
> >
> > DJ Vegh
> > N74DV
> > Mesa, AZ
> > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >
> >
> > >
> > > DJ,
> > > Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated testing
> > > jig.
> > >
> > > Greg Cardinal
> > > 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> > > Minneapolis, MN 55417
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > >
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such
> > > testing.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
> > > >
> > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > N74DV
> > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > DJ,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see what
>they
> > > > pull
> > > > > tested to...
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Al Latham
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show the
> > > poor
> > > > > > manufacture of the cables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
> > yesterday.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also you
>can
> > > see
> > > > > the
> > > > > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper
>airworthy
> > > > > swages
> > > > > > and these are not it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > > N74DV
> > > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
I'm still not going to use them even if they pull test ok. Pull testing
won't change the fact that they do not meet 43.12 spec. I'm doing this
just to see "if they would hold".
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> Gentlemen -
>
> I'm curious about the pull test results, too, but where is this going? If
> these cables don't pull clean, then sending them back is the way to go.
>
> But what if they do? Are you going to consider using them or are you still
> going to send them back? This is one of those times where you might not
> want the answer you're looking for, so maybe you don't want to ask the
> question.
>
>
> Jim Ash
>
> >
> >DJ,
> >We will mark the cables at the point they enter the end fitting so we can
> >tell if they slip. We will then test them to 60% of the rated cable
> >strength. Keep in mind that this test WILL elongate any thimbles that are
> >installed; this is a good thing because the initial stretching is done
> >before the plane flies. This will save some adjusting later on.
> >
> >Greg Cardinal
> >Ph. 612 721-6235
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >
> >
> > >
> > > sweet! I'll take you up on that offer. I'll send them on Monday.
> > >
> > > DJ Vegh
> > > N74DV
> > > Mesa, AZ
> > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > DJ,
> > > > Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated
testing
> > > > jig.
> > > >
> > > > Greg Cardinal
> > > > 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> > > > Minneapolis, MN 55417
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such
> > > > testing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
> > > > >
> > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > N74DV
> > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DJ,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see
what
> >they
> > > > > pull
> > > > > > tested to...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Al Latham
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show
the
> > > > poor
> > > > > > > manufacture of the cables.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
> > > yesterday.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also
you
> >can
> > > > see
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper
> >airworthy
> > > > > > swages
> > > > > > > and these are not it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > > > N74DV
> > > > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ -
I'm not trying to be a pain here, but what happens if AS&S claims they pull
test OK? It's going to make your argument a little tougher.
Obvously the cables still don't meet the swaging specs, which should be
enough, but if they were dealing with you rationally, their cables should
have met specs before they go out the door, and none of this should have
ever happened.
Toward that end, I'm curious if the shop that subs out the cables is a
Certified Repair Station (or manufacturer), or is it just some yahoo with a
roll of cable and a swaging tool in his garage. Those photos are an
embarrasment.
Jim Ash
>
>I'm still not going to use them even if they pull test ok. Pull testing
>won't change the fact that they do not meet 43.12 spec. I'm doing this
>just to see "if they would hold".
>
>DJ Vegh
>N74DV
>Mesa, AZ
>www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
>-
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> >
> > Gentlemen -
> >
> > I'm curious about the pull test results, too, but where is this going? If
> > these cables don't pull clean, then sending them back is the way to go.
> >
> > But what if they do? Are you going to consider using them or are you still
> > going to send them back? This is one of those times where you might not
> > want the answer you're looking for, so maybe you don't want to ask the
> > question.
> >
> >
> > Jim Ash
> >
> > >
> > >DJ,
> > >We will mark the cables at the point they enter the end fitting so we can
> > >tell if they slip. We will then test them to 60% of the rated cable
> > >strength. Keep in mind that this test WILL elongate any thimbles that are
> > >installed; this is a good thing because the initial stretching is done
> > >before the plane flies. This will save some adjusting later on.
> > >
> > >Greg Cardinal
> > >Ph. 612 721-6235
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > >
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > sweet! I'll take you up on that offer. I'll send them on Monday.
> > > >
> > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > N74DV
> > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > DJ,
> > > > > Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated
>testing
> > > > > jig.
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg Cardinal
> > > > > 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> > > > > Minneapolis, MN 55417
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for such
> > > > > testing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > > N74DV
> > > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DJ,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see
>what
> > >they
> > > > > > pull
> > > > > > > tested to...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Al Latham
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that show
>the
> > > > > poor
> > > > > > > > manufacture of the cables.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
> > > > yesterday.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval". Also
>you
> > >can
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper
> > >airworthy
> > > > > > > swages
> > > > > > > > and these are not it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > > > > N74DV
> > > > > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
Jim.... it's cool I know youre not trying to pick at me......
Jim Irwin at AS&S has emailed me regarding the cables. He said they are
farmed out to ACS Systems, which I found out is run by someone in his
family. To the best of my knowledge they are not a FAA certified repair
station.
Jim Irwin said the cables were checked with a no-go guage. He made no
mention of pull testing. I doubt they were tested with a no-go guage but if
they were then they were only tested on one axis.
Like I was saying.... if they pull test ok that is only half the equation...
they may pull test ok now, but after hours and hours of use who knows what
they may do. They need to pull test ok AND be swaged properly.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
> DJ -
>
> I'm not trying to be a pain here, but what happens if AS&S claims they
pull
> test OK? It's going to make your argument a little tougher.
>
> Obvously the cables still don't meet the swaging specs, which should be
> enough, but if they were dealing with you rationally, their cables should
> have met specs before they go out the door, and none of this should have
> ever happened.
>
> Toward that end, I'm curious if the shop that subs out the cables is a
> Certified Repair Station (or manufacturer), or is it just some yahoo with
a
> roll of cable and a swaging tool in his garage. Those photos are an
> embarrasment.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> >
> >I'm still not going to use them even if they pull test ok. Pull testing
> >won't change the fact that they do not meet 43.12 spec. I'm doing this
> >just to see "if they would hold".
> >
> >DJ Vegh
> >N74DV
> >Mesa, AZ
> >www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >
> >
> >-
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Gentlemen -
> > >
> > > I'm curious about the pull test results, too, but where is this going?
If
> > > these cables don't pull clean, then sending them back is the way to
go.
> > >
> > > But what if they do? Are you going to consider using them or are you
still
> > > going to send them back? This is one of those times where you might
not
> > > want the answer you're looking for, so maybe you don't want to ask the
> > > question.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim Ash
> > >
> > > >
> > > >DJ,
> > > >We will mark the cables at the point they enter the end fitting so we
can
> > > >tell if they slip. We will then test them to 60% of the rated cable
> > > >strength. Keep in mind that this test WILL elongate any thimbles that
are
> > > >installed; this is a good thing because the initial stretching is
done
> > > >before the plane flies. This will save some adjusting later on.
> > > >
> > > >Greg Cardinal
> > > >Ph. 612 721-6235
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > >To:
> > > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > sweet! I'll take you up on that offer. I'll send them on
Monday.
> > > > >
> > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > N74DV
> > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DJ,
> > > > > > Send them to me. Dale and I can pull test them with a calibrated
> >testing
> > > > > > jig.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg Cardinal
> > > > > > 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> > > > > > Minneapolis, MN 55417
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd love to pull test one but I don't have the proper rig for
such
> > > > > > testing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does anyone on the list have a way of pull testing a cable?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > > > N74DV
> > > > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net>
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DJ,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm certainly not saying to use them but I would love to see
> >what
> > > >they
> > > > > > > pull
> > > > > > > > tested to...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe someone should send them a cable done properly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Al Latham
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com>
> > > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > per request of a few members I have taken some shots that
show
> >the
> > > > > > poor
> > > > > > > > > manufacture of the cables.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > keep in mind.... THIS IS THE SECOND SET. I just got them
> > > > > yesterday.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Look at the gap in the wide dimension of the "oval".
Also
> >you
> > > >can
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > tool marks gouged into the swaged end. I have seen proper
> > > >airworthy
> > > > > > > > swages
> > > > > > > > > and these are not it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Would anyone here trust these on major components??
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/ACS-cables.jpg
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > DJ Vegh
> > > > > > > > > N74DV
> > > > > > > > > Mesa, AZ
> > > > > > > > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
I'm looking at AC43.13 again (for the third time since this thread
started). If it comes down to the hair-splitting and lawyers, 43-13 doesn't
state exactly how to use the gauge. And Figure 4.3 doesn't state MAXIMUM
diemeter, although that's certainly what's implied. My copy of 43.13 has a
footnote behind the after-swaging shank diameter which says "Use gauges in
kit for checking diameters".
'Diameter' implies circles to me. The swage should be able to rotate in the
gauge, not just fit through it somehow. If I were writing the book, I'd
have it say the swaged shank of the terminal should fit in the go no-go
gauge and be able to freely rotate for the full length of the swage.
Have you told Jim Irwin your expectations in detail, down to this level?
I would also be interested to find out if they have an IA inspecting the
finished product. I suppose if you wanted to get ugly, you could take these
cables or photos to a DAR and see what they have to say.
Jim Ash
>
>Jim.... it's cool I know youre not trying to pick at me......
>
>Jim Irwin at AS&S has emailed me regarding the cables. He said they are
>farmed out to ACS Systems, which I found out is run by someone in his
>family. To the best of my knowledge they are not a FAA certified repair
>station.
>
>Jim Irwin said the cables were checked with a no-go guage. He made no
>mention of pull testing. I doubt they were tested with a no-go guage but if
>they were then they were only tested on one axis.
>
>Like I was saying.... if they pull test ok that is only half the equation...
>they may pull test ok now, but after hours and hours of use who knows what
>they may do. They need to pull test ok AND be swaged properly.
>
>DJ Vegh
>N74DV
>Mesa, AZ
>www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: PIETENPOL used in the film RED BETSY |
FYI-
----- Original Message -----
From: <info(at)redbetsy.com>
Subject: PIETENPOL used in the film RED BETSY
> Dear Greg ...
>
> We found your posting regarding PIETENPOL airplanes on the Internet in
> relation to the upcoming motion picture RED BETSY.
>
> RED BETSY features a genuine PIET that is owned by an avid enthusiast in
> Wisconsin. The film opens throughout the state on Friday, September 19th,
> and will be released wider throughout the country this fall.
>
> We would be happy to provide you with additional information about the
plane
> if you are interested. Additionally, is there a particular association
for
> PIETENPOL enthusiasts that we could contact to share more information
about
> the film with?
>
> Glad to hear that you found out about the film and the plane.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Dylan Graham
> The RED BETSY Staff
> info(at)redbetsy.com
> ------------
> RED BETSY
> Opens in theatres Friday, September 19, 2003
> Visit the official website at:
> http://www.redbetsy.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
DJ,
There's a lot of interest in this from all of us who want to offer helpful
input in the test you plan to do. I want to add my 2 cents and perhaps this
will generate some more helpful discussion. I hope to learn not only whether our
supplier is selling bogus parts... but also to learn more about our beloved
Piet design so that we all know more about the machine we are building and
flying.
It makes no difference to me where AS&S gets the parts they sell, as long as
they are aircraft quality. But where the FAA is concerned, if AS&S is selling
parts as "approved" parts, it is AS&S's responsibility to ensure that their
suppliers are providing aircraft quality parts. Ultimately, as the installer
WE (under the guidance of our DAR) are responsible to ensure the airworthiness
of the parts we install. One technicality here (from the FAA standpoint) is
that AS&S can sell parts without a PMA or TSO approval and it becomes 100% OUR
responsibility to determine airworthiness. This is where our suppliers can
get us in trouble as amateur aircraft builders. WE have to make sure we don't
place all our trust that our suppliers are always providing "qualified" parts.
The FAA removes this sort of doubt for certified airplanes, because the parts
must be "approved" to be legally installed onto a TC'd airplane.
Experimental airplanes are not so. Therefore, we have to be the ones to audit
our own
suppliers.
I applaud your effort here. The issue at hand is to audit our standby
supplier AS&S and I believe we should hold them accountable for supplying us with
aircraft quality parts. I have not followed this close enough to recall
specifically which cable end is the subject of this discussion. But based on the
size of the cable, there should be some load rating for the cable. The test
should be applicable to this rating. There should be no sign of deformation or
yielding up to and including that point. So, let me pose a question for
thought.
What loads are you planning to test to? Let's be sure to get the test load
right. I think I read on one of these messages that 62% was planned...or
something.
From an engineering standpoint, you would want to test beyond the operational
and maximum loads it will see. A TC'd aircraft manufacturer would design a
cable rated high enough to withstand the maximum anticipated load plus a margin
of safety (usually a factor of at least 1.5 X maximum load.) In our case,
BHP selected this size of cable based on experience and his gut sense of
engineering. Keep this in mind as you test the cable and interpret the results.
Think about the application on the Piet and the maximum load it will see. Lets
take this opportunity to check BHP to make sure the cable is the appropriate
size for our application.
And finally, in auditing AS&S's cable end, it sure had better meet the rating
or they are going to hear from a lot of us.
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AS&S - cable pictures |
My AP mentor makes these cables, and described the spiral swaging , that I
guess are the same as yours. From what he said the swager starts at one end
and spirals around and around, like a thread till it becomes one with the
cable. By the looks of your photo the ends were never really done. the
skirt at the end shouldn't have any space to be looked into.
Seems like the guy doing the work either had the wrong tool, or just didn't
know what he was doing. Or was just Gooshing them in a vice.
The finished product should be round.
Scarey!!!
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AS&S - cable pictures
>
>
> I'm looking at AC43.13 again (for the third time since this thread
> started). If it comes down to the hair-splitting and lawyers, 43-13
doesn't
> state exactly how to use the gauge. And Figure 4.3 doesn't state MAXIMUM
> diemeter, although that's certainly what's implied. My copy of 43.13 has a
> footnote behind the after-swaging shank diameter which says "Use gauges in
> kit for checking diameters".
>
> 'Diameter' implies circles to me. The swage should be able to rotate in
the
> gauge, not just fit through it somehow. If I were writing the book, I'd
> have it say the swaged shank of the terminal should fit in the go no-go
> gauge and be able to freely rotate for the full length of the swage.
>
> Have you told Jim Irwin your expectations in detail, down to this level?
>
> I would also be interested to find out if they have an IA inspecting the
> finished product. I suppose if you wanted to get ugly, you could take
these
> cables or photos to a DAR and see what they have to say.
>
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> >
> >Jim.... it's cool I know youre not trying to pick at me......
> >
> >Jim Irwin at AS&S has emailed me regarding the cables. He said they are
> >farmed out to ACS Systems, which I found out is run by someone in his
> >family. To the best of my knowledge they are not a FAA certified repair
> >station.
> >
> >Jim Irwin said the cables were checked with a no-go guage. He made no
> >mention of pull testing. I doubt they were tested with a no-go guage but
if
> >they were then they were only tested on one axis.
> >
> >Like I was saying.... if they pull test ok that is only half the
equation...
> >they may pull test ok now, but after hours and hours of use who knows
what
> >they may do. They need to pull test ok AND be swaged properly.
> >
> >DJ Vegh
> >N74DV
> >Mesa, AZ
> >www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed Gap Empenage Flight Surfaces |
Chuck,
I would truly appreciate a picture of your plane and of the spoken method of
gap seals.
Alex Sloan
alexms1(at)bellsouth.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sealed Gap Empenage Flight Surfaces
>
> Here is an area where I varied from the plans just a little, but I
didn't
> want to endorse the change till I had some flight time on the plane.
Curse
> me all you purists !! We all know how important it is to seal the gaps at
the
> ailerons. I used the plans barn door hinges, and sealed the aileron gaps
with
> a strip of 3" fabric tape, before painting.
> Now, I just didn't like the big gaps at the hinges of the elevators
> (flippers) and rudder. I used the same method I used when building model
planes, I
> call it a 'Double Monocoat Hinge'. I used Vi Kappler aluminum hinges, and
> after building and fitting the control surfaces, before covering, I glued
a
> triangle piece of bulsa wood to the trailing edge of the horiz & vert
stabs, and
> the leading edge of the flippers and rudder, leaving a gap of 1/4" between
the
> tips of these triangle pieces, in line with and the same diameter as the
hinge
> pins. I then covered all the flight surfaces in the conventional manner,
> assembled the flight surfaces with the pins, then glued a fabric strip
down each
> slope of the triangle piece, across the gap, then up the other triangle
piece,
> and trimmed it. I did this on the top and the bottom, so two layers of
> fabric bridge the 1/4" gap, right on the hinge line.
> Advantages:
> 1) It seals any air from leaking at the hinge, when the flight surface is
> deflected, therefore less deflection is needed, thus reducing drag.
> 2) It is a secondary attachment of the flight surfaces, in the event of a
> hinge failure, and keeps the hinge pins from working out, even if the
cotter key
> is gone.
> 3) It prevents any sticks or stuff from becoming lodged in the hinge
area,
> when operating out of unimproved strips.
> 4) Hawks don't have any gaps in their tail.
>
>
> Chuck G.
> I could e-mail directly to anyone wishing to see a picture
> 68 hrs flight time
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wizzard187(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:Taper shaft hub removal and prop carving |
Pieters, Thanks to the infor from Chuck, Terry and Walt, I got my prop
hub off the tapered crankshaft without too much trouble. I had to put a
shim in the snapring to get some pressure on it but it came off pretty easy.
Do
they still use pliobond to put in crank seals?
My next question is : does someone have plans for making a machine to
carve a prop from an existing prop. I have some nice sliding bearing that
seem like a good place to start. ?Any help will be appreciated. Should be
a
good way to spend the winter.
Ken Conrad in warm dry Iowa waiting to combine corn and beans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ricksilvia" <ricksilvia(at)lewiston.com> |
| Subject: | Re: spruce suppliers (Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Hello
Two quick questions if you don't mind. Why did you not use Douglas for a second
time. What grade was the
the 2X6 spruce you used.
Thanks
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: spruce suppliers (Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Rick,
I bought a Piet project from Joe Czaplicki of Zion, Ill. Fuse and feathers
completed in spruce. I had one month before bought 8 pcs of select Douglas Fir
2X6 16 ft from Edensaw. Since I had this wood I decided to use it for my wings.
I sold that I didn't need to a builder in Florida. I paid $4,50 a bd ft for
the fir .
I guess I decided on Spruce after talking with Jim Ferris at Edensaw last Jan
when he told me of some extra special quality spruce he had recently
acquired. It's beautiful but was almost twice the price of fir.
When I first contacted him in May 2000 I told him I required wood with an
absolute straight grain of at least 8 to 12 per inch without any knots or pitch
pockets. He called me back several days later stated he could furnish the
quality I required except the wood would have 18 to 24 grains to the inch.
I hope this explanation answers your questions
Corky
Edensaw Woods Ltd Attn: Jim Ferris
211 Seton Road
Port Townsend, Wa 98368-9300
360 385 7878
FAX 3603855215
edensaw(at)edensaw.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | PMA prices ? / was AS&S - cable pictures |
I have no delusions that parts I use on an experimental are my problem. It
grates on me that parts that I can get for $5 from my local auto parts
supplier cost $50 when they're yellow tagged; that's the burden I bear if I
want standard type.
But somewhere in between are the parts suppliers for experimentals, who are
charging a bunch more than auto-parts prices, but with no particular
guarantee of airworthiness. When the smoke all clears, what am I getting
for my money from companies like this?
Glaring example - I'm looking at a Wag Aero catalog (I didn't have an AS&S
catalog handy), at the section on exhaust systems for Piper Style Aircraft.
An FAA/PMA pair of exhaust stacks that's legal for an A-65 in a J-3 is
$334.00. Same page, next item down: Stacks for a J-3 Style (What does
'style' mean anyhow? Gotta love those lawyers.) with C-85 thru O-200:
$347.15, but not approved for standard type, only experimental. They are
almost the same system (I've got a C-90 in my Cub; and I've seen the
exhaust systems in a bunch of Cubs). If I'm not getting PMA parts, why am I
paying PMA prices?
Can somebody clue me in on this one?
Jim Ash
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu> |
I've seen someone use cedar for ribs, and someone else use walnut
(pretty but heavy I assume) for some visible parts of the airframe. I'm
wondering just how much latitude a builder has in choosing woods, and
what the specific pros and cons may be. Am am also very curious about
the grades and types of woods BHP used, keeping in mind that it is much
more difficult these days to get straight-grain anything than it was
back in the day. I plan to start cutting and glueing sometime after
January.
John
John Ford
john(at)indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> ricksilvia(at)lewiston.com Sunday, September 07, 2003 8:31:24 PM >>>
Hello
Two quick questions if you don't mind. Why did you not use Douglas
for a second time. What grade was the
the 2X6 spruce you used.
Thanks
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Model a engine blocks |
Any one familiar with this block http://www.donovanengineering.com/Blocks/ModelDBlock.html
want to know if it would hold up to the prop loads.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:Taper shaft hub removal and prop carving |
Ken, try this
http://www.copycarver.com/index.html
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
"" :
>
> Pieters, Thanks to the infor from Chuck, Terry and Walt, I got my prop
> hub off the tapered crankshaft without too much trouble. I had to put a
> shim in the snapring to get some pressure on it but it came off pretty easy.
> Do
> they still use pliobond to put in crank seals?
> My next question is : does someone have plans for making a machine to
>
> carve a prop from an existing prop. I have some nice sliding bearing that
> seem like a good place to start. ?Any help will be appreciated. Should
> be a
> good way to spend the winter.
> Ken Conrad in warm dry Iowa waiting to combine corn and beans
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Prange Larry J CONT PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil> |
| Subject: | More Piet Pictures |
Hi again Pietnics!
A friend of mine has finally talked me into posting some pictures of my Piet
on MyKitplane.com . Here is the link for anyone who is interested:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=144
I have been building it since '97 and hope to fly next summer. (That's what
I have been saying since '99!) 'Just as a little side-note, I resawed most
of the dimensional sitka, for the Piet, out of an old 'T Bird' sailboat
mast, except for the wing spars which I had custom-cut at Edensaw. My
airport (Jefferson County Airport) is about two miles from Edensaw in Port
Townsend, so I had the opportunity to hand-select the billet out of which
the main spars were cut. I (also) highly recommend Edensaw. They are good
folks who know and love wood.
Just another day in paradise!
Larry Prange - NX1929A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
A Model Pieters,
This morning while going through the barn I found a box of A & T carbs. One A
Carb, cast iron by "MOCH" caught my attention. Is it worth anything?
Corky, trying to rid myself of all A & T and Dodge Bros parts from the old
car days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | N1492 Contact Info???? |
Chris,
Per Doc's book, that's Will Graff, Wadsworth OH 44281.
I asked him about his wheels a couple years ago at Brodhead. They are 21"
aluminum, I think he got them at the motor cycle recycle yard and know he
kept original hubs.
Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
"piet discussion"
Just a reminder that here's a place to get great 18mm plugs so you don't have to
get the aviation type for big $$. Got quite a few hours on them in my Pietenpol.
They are name brand (champion) and most are $2.00 apiece.
Even got some of the snazzy wire that pokes out behind the eyebrows on my A-65.
http://www.brillman.com/
walt evans
NX140DL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NormDecou(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | struts that join the two fuselage sides |
Hi,
I have reviewed all the pietenpol videos and pictures that I have been able
to get at fly-in's and off the Internet. I cannot determine for certain if the
wooden struts (ash and spruce) that join the two fuselage sides are to be
glued to the spruce or onto the inside gussets (e.g. should gussets on the inside
of the fuselage sides be notched out in areas where they prevent the spruce
struts from contacting the spruce on the fuselage sides). I just don't know
what is the preferred practise.
Sorry for asking such a basic question but I have two fuselage sides which I
have just finished that were meant for each other and I don't want to keep
them apart any longer than I have to.
Norm & Adrienne Decou
NormDecou(at)aol.com
Full set of ribs and fuselage sides done
tail feathers, and Corvair engine in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides |
as far as I know builders have done one of two methods.
1. glue the cross pieces to the gussets.
2. notch the side gussets to allow cross pieces to glue directly to the
longerons.
I glued mine to the gussets. In my opinion it's extra work not needed to
notch the gussets. The real strength of the joint comes from the top/bottom
gussets that connect the cross pieces to the longerons.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: <NormDecou(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselage sides
>
> Hi,
> I have reviewed all the pietenpol videos and pictures that I have been
able
> to get at fly-in's and off the Internet. I cannot determine for certain
if the
> wooden struts (ash and spruce) that join the two fuselage sides are to be
> glued to the spruce or onto the inside gussets (e.g. should gussets on the
inside
> of the fuselage sides be notched out in areas where they prevent the
spruce
> struts from contacting the spruce on the fuselage sides). I just don't
know
> what is the preferred practise.
> Sorry for asking such a basic question but I have two fuselage sides which
I
> have just finished that were meant for each other and I don't want to keep
> them apart any longer than I have to.
> Norm & Adrienne Decou
> NormDecou(at)aol.com
> Full set of ribs and fuselage sides done
> tail feathers, and Corvair engine in progress
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides |
Hi Friends
I agree with DJ, i glued the ash to the gussets, i
think that the landing gear fittings give that part
more strength, and with the modification (complete
metal fittings from side to side) this part would work
fine...
Saludos
Javier Cruz
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dpilot <dpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the airspeed
pitot.
Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
JimV.
"Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
-----Original Message-----
From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
Actually, "John" has a point.
I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of
mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
problems.
I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
changing the plans.
JimV.
John Ford wrote:
I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
(have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
heart...
John
John Ford
john(at)indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
who
told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
he sends me an email today saying
" I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
have
restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
two
years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
less
time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
(explative
deleted) are you?"
Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
do
spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
you
folks on this list.
I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
who
likes to share with others.
I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
Piet in
2 years.
I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
may
generate.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides |
Not a bad question . . . I think all of the other answers are right, put the
gussets on first, the strength of these pieces is in compression anyway.
Glueing it to the floorboard does more than what would be gained by notching
the gusset anyway.
BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, what gear are you using? and which fuselage are you
building??? There are considerations that MUST be made regarding these
pieces, size, location. Mike Cuy and others can verify that I brought up
this point at Brodhead and most others had not noticed.
I am late for work now and I will detail what I am talking about later. Let
me know which gear/fuselage.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: <NormDecou(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselage sides
>
> Hi,
> I have reviewed all the pietenpol videos and pictures that I have been
able
> to get at fly-in's and off the Internet. I cannot determine for certain
if the
> wooden struts (ash and spruce) that join the two fuselage sides are to be
> glued to the spruce or onto the inside gussets (e.g. should gussets on the
inside
> of the fuselage sides be notched out in areas where they prevent the
spruce
> struts from contacting the spruce on the fuselage sides). I just don't
know
> what is the preferred practise.
> Sorry for asking such a basic question but I have two fuselage sides which
I
> have just finished that were meant for each other and I don't want to keep
> them apart any longer than I have to.
> Norm & Adrienne Decou
> NormDecou(at)aol.com
> Full set of ribs and fuselage sides done
> tail feathers, and Corvair engine in progress
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca> |
| Subject: | John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in
negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the
aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent air
the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis was
performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded that
without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is
less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
airspeed pitot.
Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
JimV.
"Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
-----Original Message-----
From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
Actually, "John" has a point.
I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of
mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
problems.
I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
changing the plans.
JimV.
John Ford wrote:
I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
(have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
heart...
John
John Ford
john(at)indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
who
told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
he sends me an email today saying
" I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
have
restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
two
years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
less
time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
(explative
deleted) are you?"
Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
do
spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
you
folks on this list.
I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
who
likes to share with others.
I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
Piet in
2 years.
I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
may
generate.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Model a engine blocks |
Ken,
That block looks great! I appears to have the same dimensions as the A so
the difference would be between the cast iron structure supporting a babbit
bearing vs. an aluminum structure supporting a insert bearing. I would be
concerned about two areas, the effective thrust area of insert bearing on
the crank and the ability of the aluminum case to support the gyroscopic
loads of the prop.
Considering that they cast the block themselves and likely machine the
crank, it would be worth a phone call to see if they would add a few inches
on the end of the crank and add few inches of snout (for lack of a better
word) to the end of the block.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
that's not why you have jury struts...
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
airspeed pitot.
> Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> JimV.
>
> "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides |
I'd have to agree with DJ that it can be done both ways. On mine I glued on
the gussets then the cross pieces.
Chris T.
Sacramento, CA
Quoting "" :
>
> Hi,
> I have reviewed all the pietenpol videos and pictures that I have been able
> to get at fly-in's and off the Internet. I cannot determine for certain if
> the
> wooden struts (ash and spruce) that join the two fuselage sides are to be
> glued to the spruce or onto the inside gussets (e.g. should gussets on the
> inside
> of the fuselage sides be notched out in areas where they prevent the spruce
> struts from contacting the spruce on the fuselage sides). I just don't know
>
> what is the preferred practise.
> Sorry for asking such a basic question but I have two fuselage sides which I
>
> have just finished that were meant for each other and I don't want to keep
> them apart any longer than I have to.
> Norm & Adrienne Decou
> NormDecou(at)aol.com
> Full set of ribs and fuselage sides done
> tail feathers, and Corvair engine in progress
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Model a engine blocks |
I talked to them. They make about 25 at a time. They are about $13,000
each assembled (long block). They sold one to Hawaii for a Peietenpol.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
Haines
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model a engine blocks
Ken,
That block looks great! I appears to have the same dimensions as the A so
the difference would be between the cast iron structure supporting a babbit
bearing vs. an aluminum structure supporting a insert bearing. I would be
concerned about two areas, the effective thrust area of insert bearing on
the crank and the ability of the aluminum case to support the gyroscopic
loads of the prop.
Considering that they cast the block themselves and likely machine the
crank, it would be worth a phone call to see if they would add a few inches
on the end of the crank and add few inches of snout (for lack of a better
word) to the end of the block.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | struts that join the two fuselage sides |
I have to say it is better to glue the gussets first than glue the cross
pieces.
For the spruce pieces it is better because the gusset is stronger, when it
does not have a notch cut in it, and the end grain glue joint doesn't hold
much anyway.
For the 3" Ash pieces on the floor it is even more important because they
act mainly in compression and it seems the gusset would act as a buffer to
prevent the hard end grain of the ash from pushing into the relatively soft
side grain of the spruce longeron.
Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Model a engine blocks |
| From: | Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
on 9/10/03 7:46, Robert Gow at rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca wrote:
>
> I talked to them. They make about 25 at a time. They are about $13,000
> each assembled (long block). They sold one to Hawaii for a Peietenpol.
>
> Bob
>
Ouch! I might have considered one before hearing that. Kind of puts the
Rotec R-2800 radial (~$12000, complete and already through test runs) in a
better perspective.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Rickards" <pietbuilder(at)cogeco.ca> |
Finally after 3 months of not building ( work & travel ) I am back at it. I changed
the ailerons to match the original BP design and will be using the same
piano hinge set up that Mike Cuy used. Hope to get all the ribs finished by mid
November, the horiz stab finished by Christmas and then its on the fuse.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~pietbuilder/index.htm
Ken
GN1 2992
Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Model a engine blocks |
Maybe this would be a better choice http://www.handhantique.com/touring.htm
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model a engine blocks
>
> on 9/10/03 7:46, Robert Gow at rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca wrote:
>
> >
> > I talked to them. They make about 25 at a time. They are about $13,000
> > each assembled (long block). They sold one to Hawaii for a Peietenpol.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> Ouch! I might have considered one before hearing that. Kind of puts the
> Rotec R-2800 radial (~$12000, complete and already through test runs) in a
> better perspective.
> Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides |
The ash pieces on the floor would only be in compression on the ground. In
the air they're in tension. The struts are trying to pull the floor in two
different directions.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselage sides
>
>.
> For the 3" Ash pieces on the floor it is even more important because they
> act mainly in compression and it seems the gusset would act as a buffer to
> prevent the hard end grain of the ash from pushing into the relatively
soft
> side grain of the spruce longeron.
> Skip
>
> -
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NormDecou(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | struts that join the two fuselages |
Thanks for the answers to my question. I will be able to move ahead and
finish the primary fuselage structure now.
Gene I will be using the wooden landing gear. I will be installing
brakes and this will cause me to move the gear forward but I have not yet
established how far. I think that this may affect the final location of the 3/4
x
2" ash cross struts on the fuselage floor (I am building the extended
fuselage). I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks again everyone,
Norm and Adrienne Decou
NormDecou(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc(at)verizon.net> |
I just received the wheel hubs for my piet from Ken Perkins kenandvernaperkins(at)sbcglobal.net
very nice and only $150.00 dollars a pair with the bushings installed.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselages |
Moving the gear (i.e. axle) position forward would not change the attachment
points on the fuselage which are dictated by the underlying structure. If
you are using the wooden gear and the original style fittings, you would NOT
put on any ash cross pieces, they are not in the fuselage that uses the wood
gear. Instead, there is only the 1" square spruce just like the rest of the
fuselage.
If you want to use the ash pieces, you will have to use modified gear
fittings such as those designed by Frank Pavliga. Also, you may have to
make the ash slightly over 2" and/or move them forward or aft a little bit
to make the attachments line up with the underlying structure.
Also, what I noticed at Brodhead, is that when putting wood gear on the
"Improved" fuselage, the strut attach fittings are not the same distance
apart as the wing spars, so the struts are NOT parallel to each other.
Those airplanes using the "long" fuselage seemed to have these fittings the
correct distance apart so that the struts are parallel, but this may take
some jockeying as well.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: <NormDecou(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselages
>
> Thanks for the answers to my question. I will be able to move ahead and
> finish the primary fuselage structure now.
> Gene I will be using the wooden landing gear. I will be installing
> brakes and this will cause me to move the gear forward but I have not yet
> established how far. I think that this may affect the final location of
the 3/4 x
> 2" ash cross struts on the fuselage floor (I am building the extended
> fuselage). I look forward to hearing from you.
> Thanks again everyone,
> Norm and Adrienne Decou
> NormDecou(at)aol.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
Jury struts are to prevent the struts from setting up a harmonic vibration
which would break the end fittings, not to allow negative G flight. They
are usually an odd distance from the ends (not 1/2 or 1/4 way) to prevent
such vibrations from getting started.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in
> negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the
> aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent
air
> the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis
was
> performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded
that
> without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is
> less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
> airspeed pitot.
> Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> JimV.
>
> "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: struts that join the two fuselages |
Also, someone responded to my comment that the ash pieces are mostly for
compression. While it is true that FLIGHT loads place the cross pieces in
tension, this is minor compared to the compression loads transmitted through
the gear when landing on a rough surface. If flight loads were the only
concern, a 1" square cross piece would be good enough (and probably is
anyway), but a larger ash piece was added to beef up the gear.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: <NormDecou(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselages
>
> Thanks for the answers to my question. I will be able to move ahead and
> finish the primary fuselage structure now.
> Gene I will be using the wooden landing gear. I will be installing
> brakes and this will cause me to move the gear forward but I have not yet
> established how far. I think that this may affect the final location of
the 3/4 x
> 2" ash cross struts on the fuselage floor (I am building the extended
> fuselage). I look forward to hearing from you.
> Thanks again everyone,
> Norm and Adrienne Decou
> NormDecou(at)aol.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
Jury struts ARE intended to prevent buckling of the main lift struts under
negative G. You are right that they should NOT be in the middle of the lift
strut , which would be a stationary node during vibration. This way they
also tend to reduce vibration in the struts, but the primary purpose is to
prevent buckling of the lift struts when they are in compresion, which they
would be under negative G conditions.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
Jury struts are to prevent the struts from setting up a harmonic vibration
which would break the end fittings, not to allow negative G flight. They
are usually an odd distance from the ends (not 1/2 or 1/4 way) to prevent
such vibrations from getting started.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in
> negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the
> aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent
air
> the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis
was
> performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded
that
> without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is
> less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
> airspeed pitot.
> Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> JimV.
>
> "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Jury Strut's purpose |
Jack. You are correct. If I can remember correctly... (I do have CRS
disease you know) - a column's ability to carry compressive load is
indirectly proportional to the square of a property of the beam called the
slenderness ratio. The slenderness ratio is a factor arrived at by
comparing (ratio of) the length of the column to the width (not really the
width -sort of - it's more complicated than this but for all practical
purposes this will work) of the column. OK OK Enough!
So basically the column can be "pinned" (or stabilized) at some point to
stop the buckling action. This dramatically increases a column's ability to
take cmpressive loads.
That's what the jury strut does. It's pretty complicated in real column
loading. So if anybody's really bored or has insomnia, several books are out
there on column loading.
I'm not a structural guy. This is the sum total of what I remember about a
course 25 years ago.
Ok, my head hurts now.
Back to the TV.
Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> Jury struts ARE intended to prevent buckling of the main lift struts under
> negative G. You are right that they should NOT be in the middle of the
lift
> strut , which would be a stationary node during vibration. This way they
> also tend to reduce vibration in the struts, but the primary purpose is to
> prevent buckling of the lift struts when they are in compresion, which
they
> would be under negative G conditions.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:09 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Jury struts are to prevent the struts from setting up a harmonic vibration
> which would break the end fittings, not to allow negative G flight. They
> are usually an odd distance from the ends (not 1/2 or 1/4 way) to prevent
> such vibrations from getting started.
>
> Gene
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
>
> >
> > Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in
> > negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the
> > aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent
> air
> > the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis
> was
> > performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded
> that
> > without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This
is
> > less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
> >
> >
> >
> > You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
> > airspeed pitot.
> > Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> > My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> > I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> > JimV.
> >
> > "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
> >
> > So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your
plane...
> > By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually, "John" has a point.
> > I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built
all
> of
> > mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with
no
> > problems.
> > I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need
to
> > be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> > changing the plans.
> >
> > JimV.
> >
> >
> > John Ford wrote:
> >
> > I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> > expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> > else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> > and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> > not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> > your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> > everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> > (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> > issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> > hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> > see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> > share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> > different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> > heart...
> >
> > John
> >
> > John Ford
> > john(at)indstate.edu
> > 812-237-8542
> >
> >
> > >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
> >
> >
> > I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> > who
> > told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
> >
> > he sends me an email today saying
> >
> > " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> > have
> > restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> > two
> > years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> > less
> > time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> > (explative
> > deleted) are you?"
> >
> > Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> > do
> > spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> > construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> > you
> > folks on this list.
> >
> > I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> > who
> > likes to share with others.
> >
> > I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> > Piet in
> > 2 years.
> >
> > I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> > may
> > generate.
> >
> > DJ Vegh
> > N74DV
> > Mesa, AZ
> > www.imagedv.com/aircamper
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
that's not why you have jury struts...
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
airspeed pitot.
> Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> JimV.
>
> "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Pietenpols & the 2003 Nationsl Air Tour |
There are some interesting, close connections to the Pietenpol community and
the Air Tour.......
Check it out......
<http://www.nationalairtour.org/pilotplanespeople/index.cfm>
Jim in Plano......building I-beam spars........just slipped a rib on the
first spar last night to see how it looks....it looks wonderful.....I better
find hanger space soon!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpols & the 2003 Nationsl Air Tour |
Jim,
What did you decide to use for spars?
Greg Cardinal
>>> jim_markle(at)mindspring.com 09/11/03 08:05AM >>>
There are some interesting, close connections to the Pietenpol
community and
the Air Tour.......
Check it out......
<http://www.nationalairtour.org/pilotplanespeople/index.cfm>
Jim in Plano......building I-beam spars........just slipped a rib on
the
first spar last night to see how it looks....it looks wonderful.....I
better
find hanger space soon!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Plano Sparworks....... |
Hi Greg,
Basically ending up with something VERY close to that sketch you sent me.
The web is 9mm plywood (actually measures close to 5/16"). I ended up going
with a little thicker than the design requires to avoid needing the vertical
stiffeners at each rib (as is required for the smaller web material
thickness). I'm just glad I didn't use the 1/2" stuff I originally planned
on using! Also glad to just get started on the thing. I vacillated between
so many different sizes....but I like what I ended up with.
After putting all four thickener strips on to build out the tops and bottoms
to 1" square, I weighed the "bare" spar. Comes out within half a pound of
what a 3/4" spruce one weighs (I used one of the spruce spars from that
Missouri Air Camper I was given....). Both come out around 8 lbs.
This spar stuff has had me a little concerned about safety and design
limitations, but I'm very comfortable with what I'm ending up with. This
will be plenty strong and I won't worry about it when I fly.....
Still have some sanding/cleaning up to do as can be seen from the attached
pics. Also need to trim off the ends (I built the spars with almost a foot
extra in length so I could trim/adjust as needed). Good thing too since the
growth rings on one of the strips is a little wide for the first few inches.
I'll cut it back to where the rings are a little closer.
I'm anxious to get the wings done so I can get started on that prop
duplicator! I think that's going to be a fun project!
later,
jm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpols & the 2003 Nationsl Air Tour
>
> Jim,
> What did you decide to use for spars?
>
> Greg Cardinal
>
> >>> jim_markle(at)mindspring.com 09/11/03 08:05AM >>>
>
>
> There are some interesting, close connections to the Pietenpol
> community and
> the Air Tour.......
>
> Check it out......
>
> <http://www.nationalairtour.org/pilotplanespeople/index.cfm>
>
> Jim in Plano......building I-beam spars........just slipped a rib on
> the
> first spar last night to see how it looks....it looks wonderful.....I
> better
> find hanger space soon!!!!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Plano Spar Factory..... |
Hi Greg,
9mm plywood web (measures close to 5/16" thick) and built out the top and
bottom to 1" square using 14' strips of VG Doug Fir (ahhh, at least there's
no scarfing on the Doug Fir!).
Jim in Plano
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)startribune.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpols & the 2003 Nationsl Air Tour
>
> Jim,
> What did you decide to use for spars?
>
> Greg Cardinal
>
> >>> jim_markle(at)mindspring.com 09/11/03 08:05AM >>>
>
>
> There are some interesting, close connections to the Pietenpol
> community and
> the Air Tour.......
>
> Check it out......
>
> <http://www.nationalairtour.org/pilotplanespeople/index.cfm>
>
> Jim in Plano......building I-beam spars........just slipped a rib on
> the
> first spar last night to see how it looks....it looks wonderful.....I
> better
> find hanger space soon!!!!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpols & the 2003 Nationsl Air Tour |
Probably is only for factory built airplanes of that time... But if
not, I think a Piet should be flying in that group.
Would be "one in lifetime" adventure to the pilot that could follow it,
at least just part of it. Just thinking about it is great.
Any (or more) of the members that live close to the route, should join
at least for a leg.... I would do it if I could... If someone goes
for it, please post it here!
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Jim Markle wrote:
>
>
> There are some interesting, close connections to the Pietenpol
> community and
> the Air Tour.......
>
> Check it out......
>
> <http://www.nationalairtour.org/pilotplanespeople/index.cfm>
>
> Jim in Plano......building I-beam spars........just slipped a rib on
> the
> first spar last night to see how it looks....it looks wonderful.....I
> better
> find hanger space soon!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
I would like to bring to your attention an article in the latest Quarterly
publication of the Sport Aviation Association, "To Fly" written by Christian
Bobka, a Pieter on our little net.
A well written article pertaining to the mixture function of the carb on the
A-65 engine.
Congratulations on a job well done. Thank you.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
that's not why you have jury struts...
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
airspeed pitot.
> Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> JimV.
>
> "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Congratulations |
thanks corky.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Congratulations
>
>
> Pieters,
>
> I would like to bring to your attention an article in the latest Quarterly
> publication of the Sport Aviation Association, "To Fly" written by
Christian
> Bobka, a Pieter on our little net.
> A well written article pertaining to the mixture function of the carb on
the
> A-65 engine.
>
> Congratulations on a job well done. Thank you.
>
> Corky
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron |
that's not why you have jury struts...
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "dpilot" <dpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the
airspeed pitot.
> Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate.
> My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off.
> I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer
> JimV.
>
> "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote:
>
> So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane...
> By the way, how do you feel about jury struts?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot(at)yahoo.com]
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
>
>
> Actually, "John" has a point.
> I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all
of
> mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no
> problems.
> I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to
> be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with
> changing the plans.
>
> JimV.
>
>
> John Ford wrote:
>
> I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you
> expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody
> else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad
> and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his
> not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that
> your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by
> everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet
> (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about
> issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I
> hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and
> see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all
> share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have
> different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to
> heart...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> john(at)indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> aircamper(at)imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>>
>
>
> I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy
> who
> told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables.
>
> he sends me an email today saying
>
> " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I
> have
> restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after
> two
> years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and
> less
> time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the
> (explative
> deleted) are you?"
>
> Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I
> do
> spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my
> construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with
> you
> folks on this list.
>
> I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual
> who
> likes to share with others.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a
> Piet in
> 2 years.
>
> I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this
> may
> generate.
>
> DJ Vegh
> N74DV
> Mesa, AZ
> www.imagedv.com/aircamper
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I am just doing some final tightening and adjusting before starting taxi tests
and I cant get rid of a creeking noise from the ailereon piano hinge. Does anyone
else have that? Does it go away after time? I know I wont notice it when
the engine is running but its buggin me.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Ever heard of the squeeking wheel?
Corky in La where we have many oilwells
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
Dick,
Good to hear you are getting close to flying!
Two things can make a piano hinge creek.
1 The hinge pin line is not straight.
2 The hinge pin line is not true to the center of movement between the two
surfaces for the whole length.This does not seem too likely since the cables
that move the surface are flexible.
If all else fails aerosol spray graphite works real good.
Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca> |
very helpful
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: squeeks
Ever heard of the squeeking wheel?
Corky in La where we have many oilwells
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Thomasville Fly-In |
Are any Piet'ers going to Thomasville next month?
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rambog(at)erols.com" <rambog(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Thomasville Fly-In |
I will be there, that is my hometown.
Gene Rambo
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:33:59 -0400
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thomasville Fly-In
Are any Piet'ers going to Thomasville next month?
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly-In |
Where is Thomasville and what are the dates?
Alex Sloan
North Alabama
----- Original Message -----
From: <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Thomasville Fly-In
>
>
> I will be there, that is my hometown.
>
> Gene Rambo
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Barry Davis bed(at)mindspring.com
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:33:59 -0400
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thomasville Fly-In
>
>
> Are any Piet'ers going to Thomasville next month?
> Barry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harry21556(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly-In |
About 35 miles west of Valdosta, GA
About 35 miles north of Tallahassee, FL
Oct.10, 11, 12
http://www.thomasvilleflyin.com/home.htm
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTVI
I'm planning on being there.
Harry Hooper
In a message dated 09/12/2003 2:29:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
alexms1(at)bellsouth.net writes:
> Where is Thomasville and what are the dates?
> Alex Sloan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piet ride and advice |
Hey Chad,
I'm looking for a destination to fly to on Sunday. I think I'll end up at
McPherson sometime in the afternoon, weather permitting. Let me know if you'll
be around, and I'll give you a call when I get there, or before I leave. Are
you going to Jabara Saturday to see the National Air Tour ? Lots of old
planes there !!
Chuck Gantzer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Waytogopiet(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly-In |
I'll be there...camping with several other Piet'ers Don Hicks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
DJ,
I received your cables today. Give me a call at 612 721-6235. It is OK to call
Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Thomasville Fly-In |
I checked with Edwin Johnson my mentor, IP, Test Pilot, and other things
about flying and he said, NO--- it's 9:15 from SHV to Thomasville. Said I was too
old to fly to the next county let alone to Ga. I love peanuts.
Corky in La satisfied with pee-cans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NormDecou(at)aol.com |
Hi,
My pictures have failed me again. I cannot confirm the width where the
fuselage tail comes together and I would prefer not to guess. My best guess is
to
start the taper at 1/2" on each tailpost which will leave me with a finished
tailpost that is 1" thick at the tip.
Thanks again for the help.
Norm & Adrienne Decou
NormDecou(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | McGregor Fly-in - (was)Thomasville Fly-In |
Corky, ............... Have Mr. Johnson hop in with you and y'all come down
here to McGregor TX on the 20th (next weekend).
Chuck, ..............We're counting on you too.
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Sloan" <alexms1(at)bellsouth.net> |
Fellow Pietenpol builders and pilots,
I am ready to build the engine mount for my Corvair engine. I plan to use the
dimensions as given by Mr. Pietenpol for the distance to the firewall unless someone
has other thoughts they would like to share. Obviously, Wt. & Bal. is
the critical thing as well as the 1" down thrust Mr. Pietenpol shows. I am
aware of the wing placement for the final Wt. & Bal is the thing to do. I have
the extended fuselage.
On the engine I am using a front starter, alternator and I have kept the oil cooler
in it's original placement as well as the oil filter. No cooling fan.
I welcome any and all comments and hope you will share your experiences.
Alex Sloan
North Alabama
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Botsford" <botsford7(at)hot.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: McGregor Fly-in - (was)Thomasville Fly-In |
YES!!!, We still are having the Fish Fry. I won't make any comment about
when it is over. It will be over when it is over! Y'all come.
Jon Botsford
EAA Chapter 59
Low & Slow Fly-In coordinator
----- Original Message -----
From: <BARNSTMR(at)aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: McGregor Fly-in - (was)Thomasville Fly-In
Corky, ............... Have Mr. Johnson hop in with you and y'all come down
here to McGregor TX on the 20th (next weekend).
Chuck, ..............We're counting on you too.
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com> |
Ken, Do you have any pictures?
Jim D
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Hannan
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: HUBS
I just received the wheel hubs for my piet from Ken Perkins kenandvernaperkins(at)sbcglobal.net
very nice and only $150.00 dollars a pair with the bushings installed.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carbarvo(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount |
Hey Alex.....Good going on your Piet progress...I didn't realize you were
that far along! I'm setting up my Piet for the Model-A which I already have
sitting in its' mounts. All structure is finished and the fabric is on the tail
feathers, ailerons and the bottom of the left wing. The more I talk to Mark
Langford, the more interested I get in the Corvair engine. I may change engines
after a couple of years experience with the Ford. I've ordered Wm. Wynne's
expensive little book. I am particularly interested right now in where the engine
CG
winds up with the engine outfitted just as you have it. I think Wm. Wynne's
Piet was one of the best looking Piets I've seen. If you get over in this
direction, give me a call so I can give you directions to my house...It's real
easy. Keep us posted...Carl Vought, Huntsville, AL.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ John Ford ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: John Ford
Subject: Brodhead 2003
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Jford@indstate.edu.09.13.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: McGregor Fly-in - (was)Thomasville Fly-In |
In a message dated 9/13/03 10:59:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
BARNSTMR(at)aol.com writes:
<< Corky, ............... Have Mr. Johnson hop in with you and y'all come
down
here to McGregor TX on the 20th (next weekend).
Chuck, ..............We're counting on you too. >>
Terry,
Is McGregor just to the southwest of Waco ?
Be the good Lord willin', and the winds don't rise, I'll be there !! I'm
planning on leaving Friday after work, and get as far south as I can, then
overnight someplace, and get there saturday morning sometime. I sure hope the
weather is better than this weekend. We've been socked in Fri. & Sat., however
tomorrow is lookin' good.
Hey Jon, is that Texas Catfish I smell cookin' ??
Hey Corky, how far would this flight be for you ?
Chuck Gantzer
Tailwheel is working good, new windshield installed, and, uh, well, I mounted
a bracket in the cockpit for that GPS....sigh. I just gotta resist the urge
to turn it on...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: McGregor Fly-in - (was)Thomasville Fly-In |
Pieters,
I'll talk to Edwin this week. It looks like 3hr plus. Maybe a rear rest stop
in or around Palestine. Not too far for a real trooper.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carbarvo(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead photos |
At the risk of preaching to the choir........The most conspicuous external
difference between a Lawrence Twin (used on the Penguin trainer) and the engine
used in the C-2 is that the cylinders in the lawrence engine share a common
centerline. That's why, when one offsets the rods and fabricates a two-journal
crank, it can become a low vibration engine....Carl Vought
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Deon Engelmann" <engelmannd(at)icon.co.za> |
Hi all
I've been lurking for quite a while on this list as the Pietenpol is one
of my favorite airplanes. It is the simplicity and back to basics of the
airplane that keeps on drawing me back to it.
I need to make a decision for or against building the Pietenpol.
What I need to know is the useful weight of the aircraft as I've seen
everything from 610 lb empty with 385lb useful (995 lb max) to 535 lb
empty with 715 lb useful (1250 lb max). I weight in at 260lb and my wife
at 120. That does not leave much over for fuel if useful weight is only
385 lb. ;-)
My home airport is at 5330 feet above sea level. If I build the
Pietenpol it will have an O-200 in to compensate for altitude. (Model A
fords are very scarce in South Africa.)
I would appreciate any comments Thanx
Deon Engelmann
EAA322 Midrand # SA12055
Pretoria
South Africa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al Latham" <geebeed(at)grm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead photos |
The Aeronca E-107-A and E-113A,B&C all had enclosed valve action and the
crankcase faired
into the backside of the prop hub. It is also a fair amount smaller then the
Lawrence engines.
The early engines that were Morehouse and Poole/Galloway engines and looked
a lot like a small
Lawrence engine. I don't think any production Aeronca's flew with these
engines.
The conversion of the Lawrence engine is covered in the Flying and Glider
Manuals. The first one that I
had ever seen was at Brodhead, really neat old engine, puts out quite a bark
too. Didn't know that
they put them on the Penguin's as I've only seen the one in the F & G
Manuals with the single cylinder
engine. Keep thinking about building a Penguin but it would have to be in my
next lifetime as this one is
full up with "want to" projects
Al Latham
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carbarvo(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead photos
>
> At the risk of preaching to the choir........The most conspicuous external
> difference between a Lawrence Twin (used on the Penguin trainer) and the
engine
> used in the C-2 is that the cylinders in the lawrence engine share a
common
> centerline. That's why, when one offsets the rods and fabricates a
two-journal
> crank, it can become a low vibration engine....Carl Vought
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: McGregor Fly-in - (was)Thomasville Fly-In |
In a message dated 9/13/2003 8:15:48 PM Central Daylight Time, Rcaprd(at)aol.com
writes:
> Is McGregor just to the southwest of Waco ?
>
Yes Chuck, about 15 miles SW of Waco on Highway 84.
Terry Bowden
ph (254) 715-4773
fax (254) 853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com> |
Hay gang,I understand that the ailerons on a Piet work
much better if thay are sealed.Can anyone tell me if
the ailerons on a Grega also need to be sealed,or does
the hinging in the center rather than the top allow
them to work better? Thanks,John P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> |
Is there anywhere where one can buy Sitka spruce locally, around Philadelphia or
Allentown PA? I don't want to pay the shipping that they want to charge at
AS&S. I would consider using Douglas fir but am unsure as to what the requirements
would be to qualify as safe to use in my wings ribs. So if someone has any
pointers on what would make fir good enough to use in aircraft that I would
use that rather than paying shipping.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grega ailerons |
grega ailerons do require sealing. Most do it by using a strip of fabric.
I'm planning on using a different method. my version can be seen here:
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-12-02-aileron.htm
If I were to do it over again I would have rather used pieano hinge like a
Piet. Too late for me now as I have already made all my ribs.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: "dan john" <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grega ailerons
>
> Hay gang,I understand that the ailerons on a Piet work
> much better if thay are sealed.Can anyone tell me if
> the ailerons on a Grega also need to be sealed,or does
> the hinging in the center rather than the top allow
> them to work better? Thanks,John P.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doyle K. Combs" <dcombs(at)ltex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: local spruce |
Is any one aware of a PGN, which is a cross between a Piet and a GN-1? They
were designed in Ohio. Thanks\
Doyle Combs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: local spruce |
search the area for sailboat wood suppliers. I
recieved mine from Mccormicks in madison wisconsin,
for $9.00 a bd ft.
Del
--- William Rives Young wrote:
> Young"
>
> Is there anywhere where one can buy Sitka spruce
> locally, around Philadelphia or Allentown PA? I
> don't want to pay the shipping that they want to
> charge at AS&S. I would consider using Douglas fir
> but am unsure as to what the requirements would be
> to qualify as safe to use in my wings ribs. So if
> someone has any pointers on what would make fir good
> enough to use in aircraft that I would use that
> rather than paying shipping.
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ricksilvia" <ricksilvia(at)lewiston.com> |
| Subject: | Box Spar Construction |
Hello
I just read the earlier discussion on building a box spar rather than use
the solid spruce spar. Has anyone followed through on this idea?. Has anyone
actually used a box spar in their Piet?
Thanks
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grega ailerons |
Thanks DJ,thats kinda what I though.John P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John_Duprey(at)vmed.org |
| Subject: | Re: local spruce |
09/15/2003 08:11:04 AM
I agree check for local boat shops they should be able to help you locate a
source. Many years ago when I lived outside Philly there were a number of
builders in Deleware.
Best wishes
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | Thomasville Fly-In |
I'm planning on going, may take the 172 if VFR.
Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Rickards" <pietbuilder(at)cogeco.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Grega ailerons |
I changed my ailerons to match the original BP design. I will then use the
same piano hinge system as Mike Cuy.
It's easy to change them over and you don't have to worry about sealing the
gap. As for does one design work better than the other? I don't know, but
the original BP design has worked well for a long time.
http://home.cogeco.ca/%7Epietbuilder/index.htm
Ken
GN1 2992
Canada
----- Original Message -----
From: "dan john" <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grega ailerons
>
> Hay gang,I understand that the ailerons on a Piet work
> much better if thay are sealed.Can anyone tell me if
> the ailerons on a Grega also need to be sealed,or does
> the hinging in the center rather than the top allow
> them to work better? Thanks,John P.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc(at)verizon.net> |
James,
I will be posting pictures of my Peit this week, as I figure out
how to work this new camera
but in the mean time this the link to the pictures from the guy who makes
the Hubs.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=8
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HUBS
>
> Ken, Do you have any pictures?
>
> Jim D
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Hannan
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:05 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: HUBS
>
>
> I just received the wheel hubs for my piet from Ken Perkins
kenandvernaperkins(at)sbcglobal.net
> very nice and only $150.00 dollars a pair with the bushings installed.
>
> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
There isn't much published on the gross weight. I set mine at 1200lbs
not knowing any better at the time.
I've got an A-65 powered 626Lbs ship. 14 gallons fuel. I live at 4500'
I have lifted off at 1170lbs gross. Expect 100' per minute or less on
high density altitude days. Solo at about 1000lbs I get 3-400 fpm
climb. (Quite satisfactory since I only try for 800' on most flights.
I think an 0-200 would be a perfect fit under these conditions. It
would really perform in any temperature solo, and still be respectable
with two adults on board.
260lbs is going to be too much I think for the rear seat solo. I'm at
230 on a heavy day and I'm toward the rear of the CG envelope. I've got
20 lbs of lead on the nose to motivate me to loose weight. 7 years and
its still there.
Steve E.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deon
Engelmann
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Useful Weight
Hi all
I've been lurking for quite a while on this list as the Pietenpol is one
of my favorite airplanes. It is the simplicity and back to basics of the
airplane that keeps on drawing me back to it.
I need to make a decision for or against building the Pietenpol.
What I need to know is the useful weight of the aircraft as I've seen
everything from 610 lb empty with 385lb useful (995 lb max) to 535 lb
empty with 715 lb useful (1250 lb max). I weight in at 260lb and my wife
at 120. That does not leave much over for fuel if useful weight is only
385 lb. ;-)
My home airport is at 5330 feet above sea level. If I build the
Pietenpol it will have an O-200 in to compensate for altitude. (Model A
fords are very scarce in South Africa.)
I would appreciate any comments Thanx
Deon Engelmann
EAA322 Midrand # SA12055
Pretoria
South Africa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Vydra <jvydra(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I just listed a set of plans and instructions on this metal airplane on ebay.
Not a Piet or a GN1 but if you know someone looking for a metal airplane rated
to take 6G and cruise at 120 mph, please let em know.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Cours <piet-j(at)moriarti.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
Steve Eldredge wrote:
> 260lbs is going to be too much I think for the rear seat solo. I'm at
> 230 on a heavy day and I'm toward the rear of the CG envelope. I've got
> 20 lbs of lead on the nose to motivate me to loose weight. 7 years and
> its still there.
During construction, I wonder if you could extend the motor mount by a
few inches to shift the CG forward. If you start getting too many
questions about the long nose, you could always stick a big pipe out the
side and tell 'em it's a turbine powered Piet. ;-)
I think the recommended way of adjusting the CG is to move the wing, but
I'm nowhere near that part in construction. Hopefully one of the kind
folks on this list who's been there and done that can comment on how
well that approach might work for you.
- Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Vydra <jvydra(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Freebie from John Grega |
Many of you have probably seen this before, fun tracing I found among John Grega's
stuff.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grega ailerons |
Ken,thanks for the input.Wish I had known about this
aleron thing when we built them.It`s always more
diffecult to change things later.John P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CG was Useful Weight |
Jeff,
You are correct that the recommended way to adjust the CG is to move the wing
back. If you choose to extend the engine mount forward BH Pietenpol cautioned
that the plane my not recover from a slip as well if you do.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Quoting Jeff Cours :
>
> Steve Eldredge wrote:
> > 260lbs is going to be too much I think for the rear seat solo. I'm at
> > 230 on a heavy day and I'm toward the rear of the CG envelope. I've got
> > 20 lbs of lead on the nose to motivate me to loose weight. 7 years and
> > its still there.
>
> During construction, I wonder if you could extend the motor mount by a
> few inches to shift the CG forward. If you start getting too many
> questions about the long nose, you could always stick a big pipe out the
> side and tell 'em it's a turbine powered Piet. ;-)
>
> I think the recommended way of adjusting the CG is to move the wing, but
> I'm nowhere near that part in construction. Hopefully one of the kind
> folks on this list who's been there and done that can comment on how
> well that approach might work for you.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | New SPAM and Virus Filtering Appliance At Matronics... |
Dear Listers,
I will be installing a new SPAM and virus blocking appliance this
evening or tomorrow. The installation will involve some changes
in the Matronics DNS MX records, and will impact how incoming
email is handled. While I expect these changes to be transparent
to all of the List subscribers, things might go differently... ;-)
The Lists get bombarded with tons of SPAM messages and viruses
each day and fortunately my custom filters have been extremely
effective at filtering most of this from redistribution. Its
time to move to the next level of technology, however, and this
SPAM and Virus filtering appliance seems like an excellent
solution.
I will post a follow up message later in the week when things
have stabilized and I have some filter statistics to share.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
I need for Gantzer to come back to me off Piet list. Big question for you
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "david kowell" <dkowell(at)cstone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Jeanies Teenie |
yea know that one well my dad died i one of those
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Vydra" <jvydra(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jeanies Teenie
>
> I just listed a set of plans and instructions on this metal airplane on
ebay. Not a Piet or a GN1 but if you know someone looking for a metal
airplane rated to take 6G and cruise at 120 mph, please let em know.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 09/14/03 |
In a message dated 9/14/03 11:57:10 PM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com
writes:
<< From: "Deon Engelmann" <engelmannd(at)icon.co.za>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Useful Weight
>>
I too would like to find out what most of us use for gross weight. I'm doing
some stress calculations, which I hope to share with you. Bernie specified
1080 pounds in the 1932 manual. I'm going to use that for now, but we mostly use
more powerful engines, and we could specify a higher gross, as builders. The
wing loading at take off is only about 7.7 lbs/sq. ft., and the feds require
that the structure survive 4.4g Pos., less negative.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 09/14/03 |
In a message dated 9/14/03 11:57:10 PM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com
writes:
<< From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: local spruce >>
Fir is always an acceptable substitute for Spruce, according to the FARs.
Carl L @ Compton Airport
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
Steve's comments on this were very good. The problem on this group is most
of us are from slightly above sea level to 2000 ft. The lack of comments
are because most of us havent finished scratching our heads on that one.
There had been some discussion in the past about piets at higher elevations.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deon Engelmann" <engelmannd(at)icon.co.za>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Useful Weight
>
> Hi all
>
> I've been lurking for quite a while on this list as the Pietenpol is one
> of my favorite airplanes. It is the simplicity and back to basics of the
> airplane that keeps on drawing me back to it.
>
> I need to make a decision for or against building the Pietenpol.
> What I need to know is the useful weight of the aircraft as I've seen
> everything from 610 lb empty with 385lb useful (995 lb max) to 535 lb
> empty with 715 lb useful (1250 lb max). I weight in at 260lb and my wife
> at 120. That does not leave much over for fuel if useful weight is only
> 385 lb. ;-)
>
> My home airport is at 5330 feet above sea level. If I build the
> Pietenpol it will have an O-200 in to compensate for altitude. (Model A
> fords are very scarce in South Africa.)
>
> I would appreciate any comments Thanx
>
> Deon Engelmann
> EAA322 Midrand # SA12055
> Pretoria
> South Africa
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
What about the Subaru setup? Details, anyone?
John Ford
john(at)indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> horzpool(at)goldengate.net Monday, September 15, 2003 8:03:23 PM >>>
Steve's comments on this were very good. The problem on this group is
most
of us are from slightly above sea level to 2000 ft. The lack of
comments
are because most of us havent finished scratching our heads on that
one.
There had been some discussion in the past about piets at higher
elevations.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deon Engelmann" <engelmannd(at)icon.co.za>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Useful Weight
>
> Hi all
>
> I've been lurking for quite a while on this list as the Pietenpol is
one
> of my favorite airplanes. It is the simplicity and back to basics of
the
> airplane that keeps on drawing me back to it.
>
> I need to make a decision for or against building the Pietenpol.
> What I need to know is the useful weight of the aircraft as I've
seen
> everything from 610 lb empty with 385lb useful (995 lb max) to 535
lb
> empty with 715 lb useful (1250 lb max). I weight in at 260lb and my
wife
> at 120. That does not leave much over for fuel if useful weight is
only
> 385 lb. ;-)
>
> My home airport is at 5330 feet above sea level. If I build the
> Pietenpol it will have an O-200 in to compensate for altitude. (Model
A
> fords are very scarce in South Africa.)
>
> I would appreciate any comments Thanx
>
> Deon Engelmann
> EAA322 Midrand # SA12055
> Pretoria
> South Africa
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com> |
Thanks for the info Ken.
Jim D
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Hannan
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HUBS
James,
I will be posting pictures of my Peit this week, as I figure out
how to work this new camera
but in the mean time this the link to the pictures from the guy who makes
the Hubs.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID8
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com>
To:
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HUBS
>
> Ken, Do you have any pictures?
>
> Jim D
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Hannan
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:05 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: HUBS
>
>
>
> I just received the wheel hubs for my piet from Ken Perkins
kenandvernaperkins(at)sbcglobal.net
> very nice and only $150.00 dollars a pair with the bushings installed.
>
> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CG was Useful Weight |
In a message dated 9/15/03 2:34:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
catdesign(at)intergate.com writes:
<< You are correct that the recommended way to adjust the CG is to move the
wing back. If you choose to extend the engine mount forward BH Pietenpol
cautioned that the plane my not recover from a slip as well if you do. >>
I have the Short Fuselage. I weigh 210 lbs. Empty weight with the
Continental A65 is 625 lbs. When I had the Model A on my plane, I had to move
the
wing back 3 1/2", and use 14 lb chunk of lead (that I cast to fit the bell
housing bolt pattern) bolted to the engine, to just barely keep the CG ahead of
the aft limit. Using ballast gives me the hiebie jiebies !! Although we, as
builders, have the option of setting gross weight at anything we choose, I
set my gross weight limit at 1080 lbs., per recommended by B.H.P. I was also
aware of the recommendation by B.H.P. about the long nose plane not coming out
of a slip.
I figured out on paper, how far to extend the Continental engine mount,
to maintain a safe C.G., without adding any balast, and leaving the wing at 3
1/2" back. I came up with 8" longer than the Orrin Hoopman Contental engine
mount plans. I used heavier wall tubing (.060"), and built the engine mount
eight inches longer than plans, and all said and done, it came out exactly where
I calculated it, stays in the C.G range no matter what the configuration is,
and no ballast !! The nose is long, and I have not had any trouble coming out
of a slip. I have been practicing coming in high on final, 1/4 mile out and
maybe 500 feet, pull power almost to idle and the nose really drops, then even
put it in a slip, and she comes down so fast, that I just barely make the
numbers, with no trouble at all coming out of a slip. This is good practice to
be ready for an engine failure. Flying behind that Model A has built a little
voice in my sub conscious - every couple of minutes of flying, that little
voice asks "If this engine fails right now, where are you going to land ?".
Flying at the heavier weights causes the plane to wallaw around a little
taxiing, and on rollout on landing. Feels like it could get away from me
unless I'm really dancing on that rudder. It's the bunji chords. I just can't
get them tight enough. I tie up the loops, as called in the plans, and I've
re-done all four bunjies at least five times, trying to get them tight enough,
and they are a real pain to install on the struts. I have the split axle gear,
but I think this is a fairly common problem on Piets, no matter what style
gear.
...OK, what was that question ???
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
NX770CG
From Trees & Rags,
to Stick & Rudder,
Pietenpols are FOREVER !!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gross Weight was CG was Useful Weight |
Did anyone else notice in one of the pictures recently posted by John Ford
to http://www.matronics.com/photoshare there is a picture of the data plate
from the Last Original Air Camper built by BHP. Take a look at the max
weight, it says 1280 pounds.
Interesting, very interesting.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
-------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CG was Useful Weight |
Why would having a longer nose cause you have problems recovering from a
slip? My guess is that the extra nose would act counter to the rudder in a
slip and help keep it there, simple due to the fact that the side surface
area of the nose is forward of the center of lift. Somewhat like if the
aircraft was hanging by a string at the center of lift, a crosswind hitting
the tail would try to rotate the aircraft one way, the same wind hitting the
nose would try to rotate the aircraft the other. A longer nose provide a
higher ratio of surface in front of to surface behind the center of lift.
If this is the case, moving the wing back does the exact same thing, so is
there really a problem?
Robert Haines
Up here in beautiful Illinois hopeing that Corky eventually flys his own
plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
One of the tech counselors on this list may help out with this one, I'm sure
I don't know all the regulations as well as I think.
Gross weight rating is a function of ultimate load (in "g") and the force
required to fail the structure. For certified aircraft, the design criteria
for the utility class is a minimum rated load of 4.4g positive and something
I can't remember for negative, among other things. This rated load is a
function of ultimate load, which is simply a safety factor (ultimate load is
1.5 times rated, 2.0 times for fiberglass construction).
So the first thing you need to know is how much load will the structure
handle before failing. Let's say the at 6,000lbs of force, the weakest part
fails (motor mount, struts, fuselage, whatever). If we are trying to
certify our aircraft in the utility category we need 6.6g ultimate to rate
at 4.4g (4.4 x 1.5 = 6.6), so our gross weight becomes 6000/6.6 or 909lbs.
Since we are not trying to certify the aircraft in the normal, utility, or
aerobatic classes (or categories?), we can set the rated load and gross
weight at whatever we wish. Just understand that the two still have to work
out with the formula above. In the example, it could be 3.0g (4.5g
ultimate) at 1333lbs, or 6.0g (9g ultimate) at 667lbs. Unfortunately, I
don't think we know the ultimate load capacity on the aircraft so it makes
it a little tough to do this. My guess is that most people just pick a
gross weight and live with the fact that the actual rated load is unknown.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
P.S. - You'll notice is used the word "guess" a few times. If anyone else
knows this topic a little better, please ring in.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
While picking a gross weight bear in mind that the max gross for the
Sport Pilot rule is 1232# if I'm remembering that right. If you pick a gross
weight of say 1250# and later lose your medical you could be screwed over
18#s. Or maybe someday someone might want to buy the plane to fly under the
Sport Pilot rule. I know this doesn't affect the fellow from S. Africa but
here in the U.S. it is now definetly something to consider. Cheers Ed G.
>From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Useful Weight
>Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:03:11 -0500
>
>
>
>One of the tech counselors on this list may help out with this one, I'm
>sure
>I don't know all the regulations as well as I think.
>
>Gross weight rating is a function of ultimate load (in "g") and the force
>required to fail the structure. For certified aircraft, the design
>criteria
>for the utility class is a minimum rated load of 4.4g positive and
>something
>I can't remember for negative, among other things. This rated load is a
>function of ultimate load, which is simply a safety factor (ultimate load
>is
>1.5 times rated, 2.0 times for fiberglass construction).
>
>So the first thing you need to know is how much load will the structure
>handle before failing. Let's say the at 6,000lbs of force, the weakest
>part
>fails (motor mount, struts, fuselage, whatever). If we are trying to
>certify our aircraft in the utility category we need 6.6g ultimate to rate
>at 4.4g (4.4 x 1.5 = 6.6), so our gross weight becomes 6000/6.6 or 909lbs.
>
>Since we are not trying to certify the aircraft in the normal, utility, or
>aerobatic classes (or categories?), we can set the rated load and gross
>weight at whatever we wish. Just understand that the two still have to
>work
>out with the formula above. In the example, it could be 3.0g (4.5g
>ultimate) at 1333lbs, or 6.0g (9g ultimate) at 667lbs. Unfortunately, I
>don't think we know the ultimate load capacity on the aircraft so it makes
>it a little tough to do this. My guess is that most people just pick a
>gross weight and live with the fact that the actual rated load is unknown.
>
>
>Robert Haines
>Du Quoin, Illinois
>
>P.S. - You'll notice is used the word "guess" a few times. If anyone else
>knows this topic a little better, please ring in.
>
>
Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95.
https://broadband.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
| From: | Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
In addition to structural requirements, certificated airplanes have to meet
some performance guidelines.
FAR part 23, sub part 65 (14 CFR 23.65) says that each "normal, utility, and
acrobatic category reciprocating engine-powered airplane of 6,000 pounds or
less maximum weight" (that would include Piets if we were seeking
certification) "must have a steady climb gradient at sea level of at least
8.3 percent for landplanes or 6.7 percent for seaplanes and amphibians with
...a climb speed ... not less than 1.2 VS1 (stall speed) for single--engine
airplanes."
Stall speed depends on maximum lift coefficient, wing area, weight and air
density.
BHP's airfoil was good for about a 1.3-1.4 maximum lift coefficient on the
145 square foot wing, most Piets seem to be flown at a max gross of around
1100 Lb, and we assume sea level density (0.0765 Lbm per cubic foot).
Most of our birds will stall around 45 mph TAS. 1.2 times that is 54 mph.
8.3% of that is a little over 390 feet per minute. So, at or above 54 mph
we would have to be light enough (and powerful enough) to climb at 390 fpm
at the gross weight we used for the stall calculation. If we can't do that,
we would have to get bigger engines or reduce our maximum weight.
Since we are not seeking certification, these are just guidelines, but they
are a pretty good indicator of whether we are doing things right.
Mike Hardaway
on 9/16/03 7:03, Robert Haines at robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> One of the tech counselors on this list may help out with this one, I'm sure
> I don't know all the regulations as well as I think.
>
> Gross weight rating is a function of ultimate load (in "g") and the force
> required to fail the structure. For certified aircraft, the design criteria
> for the utility class is a minimum rated load of 4.4g positive and something
> I can't remember for negative, among other things. This rated load is a
> function of ultimate load, which is simply a safety factor (ultimate load is
> 1.5 times rated, 2.0 times for fiberglass construction).
>
> So the first thing you need to know is how much load will the structure
> handle before failing. Let's say the at 6,000lbs of force, the weakest part
> fails (motor mount, struts, fuselage, whatever). If we are trying to
> certify our aircraft in the utility category we need 6.6g ultimate to rate
> at 4.4g (4.4 x 1.5 = 6.6), so our gross weight becomes 6000/6.6 or 909lbs.
>
> Since we are not trying to certify the aircraft in the normal, utility, or
> aerobatic classes (or categories?), we can set the rated load and gross
> weight at whatever we wish. Just understand that the two still have to work
> out with the formula above. In the example, it could be 3.0g (4.5g
> ultimate) at 1333lbs, or 6.0g (9g ultimate) at 667lbs. Unfortunately, I
> don't think we know the ultimate load capacity on the aircraft so it makes
> it a little tough to do this. My guess is that most people just pick a
> gross weight and live with the fact that the actual rated load is unknown.
>
>
> Robert Haines
> Du Quoin, Illinois
>
> P.S. - You'll notice is used the word "guess" a few times. If anyone else
> knows this topic a little better, please ring in.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
Pull up FAR 23 on the FAA website and review the paragraphs referring to
ground and flight loads, factor of safety and so forth. Flight dynamics
figure into the mix - there are accelerations due to yawing and pitching
that case loads for fixed masses such as the engine. It's not all just a
matter of static strength.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
Haines
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Useful Weight
One of the tech counselors on this list may help out with this one, I'm sure
I don't know all the regulations as well as I think.
Gross weight rating is a function of ultimate load (in "g") and the force
required to fail the structure. For certified aircraft, the design criteria
for the utility class is a minimum rated load of 4.4g positive and something
I can't remember for negative, among other things. This rated load is a
function of ultimate load, which is simply a safety factor (ultimate load is
1.5 times rated, 2.0 times for fiberglass construction).
So the first thing you need to know is how much load will the structure
handle before failing. Let's say the at 6,000lbs of force, the weakest part
fails (motor mount, struts, fuselage, whatever). If we are trying to
certify our aircraft in the utility category we need 6.6g ultimate to rate
at 4.4g (4.4 x 1.5 = 6.6), so our gross weight becomes 6000/6.6 or 909lbs.
Since we are not trying to certify the aircraft in the normal, utility, or
aerobatic classes (or categories?), we can set the rated load and gross
weight at whatever we wish. Just understand that the two still have to work
out with the formula above. In the example, it could be 3.0g (4.5g
ultimate) at 1333lbs, or 6.0g (9g ultimate) at 667lbs. Unfortunately, I
don't think we know the ultimate load capacity on the aircraft so it makes
it a little tough to do this. My guess is that most people just pick a
gross weight and live with the fact that the actual rated load is unknown.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
P.S. - You'll notice is used the word "guess" a few times. If anyone else
knows this topic a little better, please ring in.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deon Engelmann" <engelmannd(at)icon.co.za>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Useful Weight
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Deon,
I built my Piet especially for high altitude operation since I live at about
7200 feet and have it based at an airport that is 7946 feet high. We have
the continental divide (14000 plus)on one side and 11,000 foot mountains on
the other side of our little valley.
I was told when I started the project, that most Piets tend toward being
tail heavy in their stock form, therefore I felt that I could use a heavier
powerplant than the Model A installation. This allowed me a greater range
of options for an engine.
Since a normally aspirated engine loses about 3% of it's power for each 1000
feet in altitude, this would amount to a 30% loss in power up here. In
contrast, a turbo or supercharged engine will develop sea level horsepower
up here. Therefore, I am using a Subaru EA-82 turbocharged engine which
seems to be developing somewhere between 110 to 135 horsepower here
depending on my throttle setting. At take off the engine is pulling 45
inches of manifold pressure. The propeller is a special design that Duane
Woolsey gave me, it is an 80" x 52" with a wide chord blade. The reduction
unit is a 2.35 to 1.00 ratio, so when the engine is turning 4800 to 5500 rpm
the prop is only turning at 2042 to 2340 rpm. I cruise at about 4100 engine
rpm which translates to 1744 prop rpm, which is about the same speed as the
original Model A engine. This was what I wanted, to match the airframe that
Mr. Pietenpol designed.
The airframe is completely stock from the firewall back. However, since I
added brakes, extra fuel tank, tailwheel, tow hook, ELT, upholstery and
other goodies and with the extra engine weight because of the reduction
unit, my empty weight with oil and coolant is about 800 lbs.
Now, as to performance at this altitude: Last winter with the ground temper
ature at 50 degrees F:
10,000 feet I recorded over 1,100 fpm rate of climb
11,000 feet it had dropped off to 1,000 fpm:
12,000 feet I was so darned cold that I could hardly write, but it was still
climbing strongly and I can't read my writing!
I have had the plane up to 15,300 feet.
These numbers were developed with a gross weight of about 1,011 pounds
(pilot at 175 lbs and fuel at about 36 lbs). You can placard the plane at
any gross weight you would like, I did mine at 1,225 lbs because when I sell
it, I wanted it to fit into the Sport Pilot category. As you can see, the
actual gross wt. will be higher with full fuel and passenger. The only
caution here is not to do any aerobatics when you have the plane fully
loaded up.
Take off run seems to be quick, and, surprisingly even with full tanks and a
passenger, the performance is good. I have not recorded any of these
numbers.
As you can tell, I am a strong supporter of turbo'd engines for performance
at high altitudes. You won't go much faster, but you will have excellent
climb and take off characteristics. It handles in the air just like a
little fighter.
Oscar Zuniga came by a couple of months ago and took pictures of the plane
and then posted them with a write up on his web site at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/john_piet.html
Good luck on your project, I know you will enjoy it. The dreaming stage is
part of the fun of building.
Cordially, John NX114D
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Hi all
>
> I've been lurking for quite a while on this list as the Pietenpol is one
> of my favorite airplanes. It is the simplicity and back to basics of the
> airplane that keeps on drawing me back to it.
>
> I need to make a decision for or against building the Pietenpol.
> What I need to know is the useful weight of the aircraft as I've seen
> everything from 610 lb empty with 385lb useful (995 lb max) to 535 lb
> empty with 715 lb useful (1250 lb max). I weight in at 260lb and my wife
> at 120. That does not leave much over for fuel if useful weight is only
> 385 lb. ;-)
>
> My home airport is at 5330 feet above sea level. If I build the
> Pietenpol it will have an O-200 in to compensate for altitude. (Model A
> fords are very scarce in South Africa.)
>
> I would appreciate any comments Thanx
>
> Deon Engelmann
> EAA322 Midrand # SA12055
> Pretoria
> South Africa
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Vydra <jvydra(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | S.A. Magazines...old |
Hi all,
I just listed 3 complete years of S.A. on ebay....1962...1963..and 1969
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Yet another Pietenpol magazine article.... |
Found another interesting Pietenpol article. This time in an April 1990
issue of a magazine called "Skyways" The Journal of the Airplane 1920-1940
Scanned it and saved it to:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Taxiway/TheHangar/photoAlbumManager.cfm?AlbumID=14
5
If anyone wants a larger, possible more readable file, email me direct and
I'll send a zipped copy. (If your browser automatically resizes images the
picture will be a little small. Turn off auto resize and it's easily
readable....)
Jim in Plano......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesJboyer(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
Hello Piet List.
I'm trying to find the address and name of the person who owns the Piet in
Lancaster, CA. I will be in that area for the next three days and if possible
would like to see his airplane.
Appreciate any replys. Thanks, Jim
Reserved # NX499JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
Might be: Scott at pietman(at)qnet.com , he is a member of EAA 49 in
Lancaster California and built one with his father. You can see a shot of
his plane at
http://www.eaa49.av.org/index.htm .
Jim in Plano
Reserved #NX25JM
>
> Hello Piet List.
>
> I'm trying to find the address and name of the person who owns the Piet in
> Lancaster, CA. I will be in that area for the next three days and if
possible
> would like to see his airplane.
>
> Appreciate any replys. Thanks, Jim
> Reserved # NX499JB
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I was doing my engine test the other day and in the full power run I was able to
get 1900 rpm static run with an A-65 and a 72x42 prop. I expected a bit higher
rpm. Is this close to what others have gotten?
Also reading thru materials from EAA on inspections they talk about a prop log.
I went out to the local FBO to buy one and the owner said he doesn't keep them
for J-3's and such, he just makes entries in the airframe log. Does the DAR
want to see a Prop log?
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" <twinboom(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
His name is Scott out of EAA chapter 49. Here is the link that shows some pictures
of his plane. I met him at Flabapb a couple of years ago and was able to see
his plane. Tube fuse. SWEET!!!! He's a nice guy. Here is the email address
and the link to their club page. Look under "Members planes/projects. He is about
five down on the list. NOw his plane is dark green with a hint of yellow highlights.
There is also a gal at their chapter that flies a Piet, but I have
never met her. I'll send you a picture of them together at a Corona Piet fly-in
a few years back to your home email address.
Scott pietman@qnet.com , and here is the club link, http://www.eaa49.av.org/index.htm . Have fun.
Doug Blackburn
Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn
Yucaipa California
www.inlandsloperebels.com
W.W. conversion manual, #3202 www.flycorvair.com
----- Original Message -----
From: JamesJboyer(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Useful Weight
Hello Piet List.
I'm trying to find the address and name of the person who owns the Piet in
Lancaster, CA. I will be in that area for the next three days and if possible
would like to see his airplane.
Appreciate any replys. Thanks, Jim
Reserved # NX499JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
Dick,
The taylorcraft with an A-65 is min 2070 and max 2250 rpm for static runup.
That is with a 70-72 " diameter prop of appropriate pitch to give the static
range, usually 42-44".
Chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: prop
>
> I was doing my engine test the other day and in the full power run I was
able to get 1900 rpm static run with an A-65 and a 72x42 prop. I expected a
bit higher rpm. Is this close to what others have gotten?
> Also reading thru materials from EAA on inspections they talk about a prop
log. I went out to the local FBO to buy one and the owner said he doesn't
keep them for J-3's and such, he just makes entries in the airframe log.
Does the DAR want to see a Prop log?
> Dick
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesJboyer(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
In a message dated 9/16/2003 8:00:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
twinboom(at)msn.com writes:
> http://www.eaa49.av.org/index.htm
Hi Doug,
Thank you very much for the pictures and email for Scott. If you are ever up
in Santa Rosa, CA give me a call and I can show my wing ribs, fuselage, and
tail surfaces all done. How exciting, I can just see you!
Thanks again Doug.
Jim; phone is 707-544-5594
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesJboyer(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Useful Weight |
HI Jim,
Thanks for the information on Scott and his Piet. If you are ever in Santa
Rosa, CA give me a call or email and I will be glad to show you all the parts I
have done. Am working on steel parts now and have 94 cut out and some actually
almost done in addition to having all tail surfaces, fuselage, and wing ribs
done.
Cheers, Jim (also name I go by) 707-544-5594
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Gates <leogates(at)allvantage.com> |
Richard Navratil wrote:
>
>I was doing my engine test the other day and in the full power run I was able
to get 1900 rpm static run with an A-65 and a 72x42 prop. I expected a bit higher
rpm. Is this close to what others have gotten?
>Also reading thru materials from EAA on inspections they talk about a prop log.
I went out to the local FBO to buy one and the owner said he doesn't keep them
for J-3's and such, he just makes entries in the airframe log. Does the DAR
want to see a Prop log?
>Dick
>
>
My Talorcraft ( A65) turns 2150 stactic with a 73 X 44 McCauley Metal prop.
ACS sells a propeller log for $5.25.
Leo Gates
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
Dick,
My DAR never mentioned a prop log. Was only interested in prop serial
number, so the FAA would take a 25 hour phase 1 fly-off.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Gates" <leogates(at)allvantage.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: prop
>
> Richard Navratil wrote:
>
> >
> >I was doing my engine test the other day and in the full power run I was
able to get 1900 rpm static run with an A-65 and a 72x42 prop. I expected a
bit higher rpm. Is this close to what others have gotten?
> >Also reading thru materials from EAA on inspections they talk about a
prop log. I went out to the local FBO to buy one and the owner said he
doesn't keep them for J-3's and such, he just makes entries in the airframe
log. Does the DAR want to see a Prop log?
> >Dick
> >
> >
> My Talorcraft ( A65) turns 2150 stactic with a 73 X 44 McCauley Metal
prop.
>
> ACS sells a propeller log for $5.25.
> Leo Gates
>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Wright Flyer show |
Was watching a show tonite about building the Wright Flyer, and saw a Piet hanging
from the hanger ceiling behind.
walt evans
NX140DL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Green <mmml(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Fin/Rudder Dimensions |
Hi All,
I'm new to the list, but have been monitoring for the last couple of months. My
timber was shipped from the States today (being sent to Australia) so I'm eagerly
going over the plans ready to swing into action when it arrives.
I've decided to start with the tail group but noticed a descrepancy in the length
of the leading edge of the rudder, compared to the fin, horizontal stab and
tailpost. These three added togeather come up 1/2" short of the rudder leading
edge.
Is this normal ?
Mike Green
Romsey
Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fin/Rudder Dimensions |
Hello and welcome Mike...I guess you could call it normal. My rudder is
1/2" longer than the Verticle stab/ fuselage. I belive the plans show the
1/4" x 1/2" fairing strips running all the way to the tail post on the
bottom of the fuselage which accounts for 1/2 of the missing length and then
the rudder point on the bottom can be faired into the fuselage. Since I
didn't run those strips all the way back on mine the rudder does extend past
the fuse 1/2" on the bottom. Not a big deal really and I've seen this
dicussion on the list before, you might want to check the Matronics
archives. I guess you could shorten the rudder If it bothers you but I
wouldn't, I've learned the hard way that when you depart from the plans the
time to build factor goes way up. Ed G..... Palm Harbor Fl. U.S.
>From: Michael Green <mmml(at)bigpond.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fin/Rudder Dimensions
>Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:42:28 +1000
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>I'm new to the list, but have been monitoring for the last couple of
>months. My timber was shipped from the States today (being sent to
>Australia) so I'm eagerly going over the plans ready to swing into action
>when it arrives.
>
>I've decided to start with the tail group but noticed a descrepancy in the
>length of the leading edge of the rudder, compared to the fin, horizontal
>stab and tailpost. These three added togeather come up 1/2" short of the
>rudder leading edge.
>
>Is this normal ?
>
>
>Mike Green
>Romsey
>Australia
>
>
Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95.
https://broadband.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Link to the magazine article I scanned.... |
If you had a problem viewing the Pietenpol article, it was possibly because
the mail list dropped the last number in the link (why me?). Should be:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=145
ending in 145......
Enjoy......
Jim in Plano.....one spar ready to slide on the ribs (as if I haven't
already put some ribs on to see how 2 spars and a bunch of ribs look!!!) and
the other 3 spars just a few hours away from completion.....WOOHOO!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | McGregor fly in, seat, and landing gear questions |
| From: | "Ken Chambers" <kchambers(at)winternals.com> |
I searched the archives but I can't find the location of that flyin near
Waco Sept. 20. What's the name of the airport? Which highway is it on?
Also, anyone have suggestions for bolting in the front seat? I thought
two bolts in front and two on each side should hold it.
I need to decide on the landing gear soon. I'm hoping to use
differential braking for steering and wondering if motorcycle wheels
with big disks might be the most effective brakes for this airplane.
Does anyone have a setup like this? On the straight or split axle gear?
If you had it to do over again, would you build the same type of landing
gear? Same type of wheels and brakes? What if anything would you do
differently?
Thanks men. Couldn't do it without you.
Ken in cool rainy Austin Texas, working in a one-bedroom apartment,
finishing up the seats and control sticks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: McGregor fly in, seat, and landing gear questions |
Ken,
McGregor airport is on Highway 84 west of Waco about 15 miles. The Identifyer
for the airport is PNG.
I flew a Piet once with the split axle gear like the hoopman plans call out. It
was a nice set-up...not too soft...yet forgiving of my first landing which I
dropped in a bit. This was on a semi-rough sod surface. My current project
has a similar set-up with a modified J3 cub gear. Motorcycle wheels are not recommended
as they lack side load strength. Some of the other guys can chime
in on this. I am using cub wheels/brakes 8.00 X 4.
See you Saturday at McGregor.
Terry L. Bowden
ph 254-715-4773
fax 254-853-3805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: McGregor fly in, seat, and landing gear |
questions
<http://www.waco-tx-eaa.org/images/events/fish-fry-2003.gif>
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Chambers <kchambers(at)winternals.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: McGregor fly in, seat, and landing gear questions
I searched the archives but I can't find the location of that flyin near
Waco Sept. 20. What's the name of the airport? Which highway is it on?
Also, anyone have suggestions for bolting in the front seat? I thought
two bolts in front and two on each side should hold it.
I need to decide on the landing gear soon. I'm hoping to use
differential braking for steering and wondering if motorcycle wheels
with big disks might be the most effective brakes for this airplane.
Does anyone have a setup like this? On the straight or split axle gear?
If you had it to do over again, would you build the same type of landing
gear? Same type of wheels and brakes? What if anything would you do
differently?
Thanks men. Couldn't do it without you.
Ken in cool rainy Austin Texas, working in a one-bedroom apartment,
finishing up the seats and control sticks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> |
Does anyone have the weight of a bare wood fuselage?
Without fittings and landing gear or tail feathers, just the framework with all
the plywood and gussets installed, but without seats.
We have our second steel fuselage welded up now and the question came up about
weight. Our regular work night is Monday and we plan to take scales and weigh
up a 4130 steel fuselage. I'll post the weight on Tuesday.
Barry Davis
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Motorcycle wheels |
| From: | Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> |
on 9/18/03 7:10, BARNSTMR(at)aol.com at BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> .... Motorcycle wheels are not
> recommended as they lack side load strength. Some of the other guys can chime
> in on this.
>
We keep hearing this but I haven't seen evidence that it is true. Many
motorcycles, using motorcycle wheels, have sidecars. A sidecar forces a
motorcycle to turn like a car, putting side loads on the wheels. Also, many
early airplanes used motorcycle wheels and I've heard that there are Piets
out there with motorcycle wheels (using motorcycle hubs).
Does anyone have actual evidence that a properly selected motorcycle wheel
will fail under the side loads experienced in a Piet?
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: McGregor fly in, seat, and landing gear questions |
Just hope the president does not decide to go to crawford that weekend. The
TFR would shut the flyin down.
chris bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Chambers" <kchambers(at)winternals.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: McGregor fly in, seat, and landing gear questions
>
> I searched the archives but I can't find the location of that flyin near
> Waco Sept. 20. What's the name of the airport? Which highway is it on?
>
> Also, anyone have suggestions for bolting in the front seat? I thought
> two bolts in front and two on each side should hold it.
>
> I need to decide on the landing gear soon. I'm hoping to use
> differential braking for steering and wondering if motorcycle wheels
> with big disks might be the most effective brakes for this airplane.
> Does anyone have a setup like this? On the straight or split axle gear?
> If you had it to do over again, would you build the same type of landing
> gear? Same type of wheels and brakes? What if anything would you do
> differently?
>
> Thanks men. Couldn't do it without you.
>
> Ken in cool rainy Austin Texas, working in a one-bedroom apartment,
> finishing up the seats and control sticks.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> |
| Subject: | Motorcycle wheels |
I am building my wheels with wider hubs, I just like the way they look. But,
I have seen evidence that motorcycle hubs can carry some side loads.
Several years ago Calvin Brown from New England, won the Wright Brothers
award from the Dayton OH EAA chapter, you had to take your plane to Dayton
to get the award. He had a nice one piece wing, very to the plans, Piet
which he trailered to Dayton than on to Brodhead. He had a ground loop at
Dayton.
When he got to Brodhead there was still grass in the tire bead of one of his
wheels. The wheels appeared in otherwise good condition and he did some
flying at Brodhead.
So it seems that his motorcycle hub wheel was able to carry some side load
and not break.
Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fin/Rudder Dimensions |
(2.8 points)
points) 'From' juno.com does not match 'Received' headers
Mike,
You have saved yourself some extra work by noticing this discrepancy in
the empenage dimensions. Also, take into account that the rudder when
installed with hinges is approx 1/2 in. from the fin and has a
trapezoidal shape.
I made my vertical fin and rudder to the dimensions on the plans. When I
placed them on the fuselage I found that the rudder hung below the
fuselage approximately 1-inch. I am now lining up the bottom of the
rudder with the bottom of the fuselage and installing the hinges. This
leaves the rudder higher than the vertical fin, so I am adding a piece of
spruce to the top of the vertical fin. Some builders just let the rudder
hang below the fuselage and that also works fine.
Dick Hartwig
_____________________________
| From: | Michael Green <mmml(at)bigpond.com> |
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fin/Rudder Dimensions
Hi All,
I'm new to the list, but have been monitoring for the last couple of
months. My
timber was shipped from the States today (being sent to Australia) so I'm
eagerly
going over the plans ready to swing into action when it arrives.
I've decided to start with the tail group but noticed a descrepancy in
the length
of the leading edge of the rudder, compared to the fin, horizontal stab
and
tailpost. These three added togeather come up 1/2" short of the rudder
leading
edge.
Is this normal ?
Mike Green
Romsey
Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <aircamper(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Weight |
My 90% complete fuselage (as shown in the link below) weighs in at 195lb. That
includes controls and rudder pedals, J-3 landing gear, aluminum cabanes, Grove
wheels and brakes and Matco tailwheel. No instruments, fuel tank, seat belts,
or control cables.
here's the link that shows the plane in that state of completion
http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/07-19-03.htm
I'm not sure if I'm on par with what it should be or not.... can someone else chime
in with some fuse numbers??
DJ Vegh
N74DV
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Davis
August 31, 2003 - September 18, 2003
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-dj