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Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-do
December 08, 2003 - December 31, 2003

First the disclaimer: I'm not a structural engineer, and I haven't run the numbers for the Piet fuselage. I do understand a lot of the physics involved. I built my Piet fuselage 1 inch spruce longerons. You're calculations are correct, at least for tensile strength. Stiffness depends on dimension squared, and goes down even faster. There's a MIL-SPEC on spruce--I don't have the number handy, but someone on the list probably does. It lists substitution recommendations for other woods, including Douglas fir. On the other hand, there seems to be a general consensus that the Piet is overbuilt. You could check into the construction used for other wood planes to get a feeling for what is done. The only data point I (think) I remember is that I've seen an Ospery I amphibian that appeared to be built of 3/4 inch fir. Doublers seem like an interesting idea. If I were going to do it that way, I'd think about 8 long strips on the outsides of the corners, over the gussets, with filler blocks between the gussets. 1/8 inch Douglas fir over 1/8 inch filler would probably bring your strength back to nominal. Stiffness would (probably) be better than using 1" spruce. I'd worry a bit about using a spruce doubler over Douglas Fir because of a difference in stiffness (Young's modulus to be specific). Let us know how you decide to go. Gene Hubbard San Diego -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Williams [mailto:ewilliams805(at)msn.com]
Subject: Good Fuselage??
Hi everyone. This is my first posting to this list (although Ive been lurking for a while) and I have a situation that I would really appreciate any comments or suggestions on. While at Oshkosh this year, a very good friend of mine, who has too many airplanes in various stages of repair, offered to give me a Piet project that he had acquired several years ago from a friend of his (the builder). I picked up the project this past weekend and it consists of a completed fuselage structure with the plywood skin on the forward half and the floor, a complete set of wing ribs, and a complete set of tail surfaces. The workmanship on the project looks to be acceptable however, one thing that bothered me was the longerons and the other fuselage members appeared to be small in cross-section. The builder happened to stop by while we were loading it all onto my trailer. He said that he had used douglas fir and since his research proved to him that fir was 25% stronger than spruce, he had reduced the dimensions of the members by 25% (from 1" to 3/4"). The problem with this line of thinking, as I see it, is that when you multiply 3/4" by 3/4" you end up with 0.56 square inches as the cross-sectional area of the wood that was used, as compared to 1.00 square inch in a 1" x 1" member. That means the longerons in my fuselage actually contain 44% less material than had they been built using 1x1 stock. I would sincerely appreciate any thoughts you all might have as to the usability of this fuselage. I should say that it "feels" strong and I did sit in it while it was supported at the approximate landing gear points and there appeared to be no deflection or creaking at all (there were a few engine noises made however). I also wonder if I might be able to epoxy some 1/4" strips to the various members for added strength? The builder said he had used West System epoxy to construct it. Thanks for your input. Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Good Fuselage??
Date: Dec 08, 2003
On my minimax the plans call for a strip of 1/8" mahogany plywood, about 1 3/4" wide by 7' long from the cockpit back to the tail on all outside corners of the longerons. It also has cross braces in the back part of the fuselage. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > Eric, > > First the disclaimer: I'm not a structural engineer, and I haven't run the > numbers for the Piet fuselage. I do understand a lot of the physics > involved. I built my Piet fuselage 1 inch spruce longerons. > > You're calculations are correct, at least for tensile strength. Stiffness > depends on dimension squared, and goes down even faster. There's a MIL-SPEC > on spruce--I don't have the number handy, but someone on the list probably > does. It lists substitution recommendations for other woods, including > Douglas fir. > > On the other hand, there seems to be a general consensus that the Piet is > overbuilt. You could check into the construction used for other wood planes > to get a feeling for what is done. The only data point I (think) I remember > is that I've seen an Ospery I amphibian that appeared to be built of 3/4 > inch fir. > > Doublers seem like an interesting idea. If I were going to do it that way, > I'd think about 8 long strips on the outsides of the corners, over the > gussets, with filler blocks between the gussets. 1/8 inch Douglas fir over > 1/8 inch filler would probably bring your strength back to nominal. > Stiffness would (probably) be better than using 1" spruce. I'd worry a bit > about using a spruce doubler over Douglas Fir because of a difference in > stiffness (Young's modulus to be specific). > > Let us know how you decide to go. > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Williams [mailto:ewilliams805(at)msn.com] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > > > Hi everyone. This is my first posting to this list (although Ive been > lurking for a while) and I have a situation that I would really appreciate > any comments or suggestions on. > > While at Oshkosh this year, a very good friend of mine, who has too many > airplanes in various stages of repair, offered to give me a Piet project > that he had acquired several years ago from a friend of his (the builder). > I picked up the project this past weekend and it consists of a completed > fuselage structure with the plywood skin on the forward half and the floor, > a complete set of wing ribs, and a complete set of tail surfaces. > > The workmanship on the project looks to be acceptable however, one thing > that bothered me was the longerons and the other fuselage members appeared > to be small in cross-section. The builder happened to stop by while we were > > loading it all onto my trailer. He said that he had used douglas fir and > since his research proved to him that fir was 25% stronger than spruce, he > had reduced the dimensions of the members by 25% (from 1" to 3/4"). The > problem with this line of thinking, as I see it, is that when you multiply > 3/4" by 3/4" you end up with 0.56 square inches as the cross-sectional area > of the wood that was used, as compared to 1.00 square inch in a 1" x 1" > member. That means the longerons in my fuselage actually contain 44% less > material than had they been built using 1x1 stock. > > I would sincerely appreciate any thoughts you all might have as to the > usability of this fuselage. I should say that it "feels" strong and I did > sit in it while it was supported at the approximate landing gear points and > there appeared to be no deflection or creaking at all (there were a few > engine noises made however). I also wonder if I might be able to epoxy some > > 1/4" strips to the various members for added strength? The builder said he > had used West System epoxy to construct it. > > Thanks for your input. > > Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Naming of Mitchel Field
Date: Dec 08, 2003
OK,, thanks. What other infro do you know? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > Billy Mitchell > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > > > > > > Dick, > > > > Here is another one for you. How is Mitchel Field on Long Island named > > after? > > > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> > > To: > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Naming of Wright Field > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > Cliff's source says that the field was named after the brothers, but it > > > may be a little more involved than that. The history is a little > > > confusing to me. One source says--First there was McCook Field, next, > > > adjacent to it was Wilbur Wright Field. Then land was donated for > Wright > > > Field. Then Wilbur Wright Field was renamed Patterson Field. Then the > > > whole works became Wright-Patterson AFB. > > > It seems that 2 fields with a total of three names became the > > > AFB.......then there is the story of the field that predated the above, > > > where the brothers did their testing after the first flight--Huffman > > > Prairie Flying Field which also is on W-P AFB. > > > So, what is the correct answer? > > > Dick Hartwig > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Good Fuselage??
Date: Dec 08, 2003
yes, I concur. what's up with that? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > Gene, aren't you getting a little tired of sending the same old email? > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hubbard, > Eugene > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:34 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > > Eric, > > First the disclaimer: I'm not a structural engineer, and I haven't run the > numbers for the Piet fuselage. I do understand a lot of the physics > involved. I built my Piet fuselage 1 inch spruce longerons. > > You're calculations are correct, at least for tensile strength. Stiffness > depends on dimension squared, and goes down even faster. There's a MIL-SPEC > on spruce--I don't have the number handy, but someone on the list probably > does. It lists substitution recommendations for other woods, including > Douglas fir. > > On the other hand, there seems to be a general consensus that the Piet is > overbuilt. You could check into the construction used for other wood planes > to get a feeling for what is done. The only data point I (think) I remember > is that I've seen an Ospery I amphibian that appeared to be built of 3/4 > inch fir. > > Doublers seem like an interesting idea. If I were going to do it that way, > I'd think about 8 long strips on the outsides of the corners, over the > gussets, with filler blocks between the gussets. 1/8 inch Douglas fir over > 1/8 inch filler would probably bring your strength back to nominal. > Stiffness would (probably) be better than using 1" spruce. I'd worry a bit > about using a spruce doubler over Douglas Fir because of a difference in > stiffness (Young's modulus to be specific). > > Let us know how you decide to go. > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Williams [mailto:ewilliams805(at)msn.com] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > > > Hi everyone. This is my first posting to this list (although Ive been > lurking for a while) and I have a situation that I would really appreciate > any comments or suggestions on. > > While at Oshkosh this year, a very good friend of mine, who has too many > airplanes in various stages of repair, offered to give me a Piet project > that he had acquired several years ago from a friend of his (the builder). > I picked up the project this past weekend and it consists of a completed > fuselage structure with the plywood skin on the forward half and the floor, > a complete set of wing ribs, and a complete set of tail surfaces. > > The workmanship on the project looks to be acceptable however, one thing > that bothered me was the longerons and the other fuselage members appeared > to be small in cross-section. The builder happened to stop by while we were > > loading it all onto my trailer. He said that he had used douglas fir and > since his research proved to him that fir was 25% stronger than spruce, he > had reduced the dimensions of the members by 25% (from 1" to 3/4"). The > problem with this line of thinking, as I see it, is that when you multiply > 3/4" by 3/4" you end up with 0.56 square inches as the cross-sectional area > of the wood that was used, as compared to 1.00 square inch in a 1" x 1" > member. That means the longerons in my fuselage actually contain 44% less > material than had they been built using 1x1 stock. > > I would sincerely appreciate any thoughts you all might have as to the > usability of this fuselage. I should say that it "feels" strong and I did > sit in it while it was supported at the approximate landing gear points and > there appeared to be no deflection or creaking at all (there were a few > engine noises made however). I also wonder if I might be able to epoxy some > > 1/4" strips to the various members for added strength? The builder said he > had used West System epoxy to construct it. > > Thanks for your input. > > Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Naming of Wright Field
Date: Dec 08, 2003
Two wrongs don't make a right... but two Wrights made an airplane. > Wright which was wrong it should have been right so now we don't know which > right is right. Am I right? > Chris T. from the Left Coast ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Naming of Mitchel Field
Date: Dec 09, 2003
The first blind flight by Doolittle was from College Park Airport in DC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > Used to hear it called Billy Mitchel field, and think it was the one that > the first blind flight was made from by Jimmy Dolittle. > (My Dad worked at the place that made the instruments, in NJ) > walt evans > NX140DL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > > > > > > Dick, > > > > Here is another one for you. How is Mitchel Field on Long Island named > > after? > > > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> > > To: > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Naming of Wright Field > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > Cliff's source says that the field was named after the brothers, but it > > > may be a little more involved than that. The history is a little > > > confusing to me. One source says--First there was McCook Field, next, > > > adjacent to it was Wilbur Wright Field. Then land was donated for > Wright > > > Field. Then Wilbur Wright Field was renamed Patterson Field. Then the > > > whole works became Wright-Patterson AFB. > > > It seems that 2 fields with a total of three names became the > > > AFB.......then there is the story of the field that predated the above, > > > where the brothers did their testing after the first flight--Huffman > > > Prairie Flying Field which also is on W-P AFB. > > > So, what is the correct answer? > > > Dick Hartwig > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: At7000ft(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 09, 2003
Subject: Full size rib plans
After discovering that the "Full size rib plans" ordered from Don Pietenpol don't match the 34 plans I searched the archives and read about many peoples solution to the problem. They range from "throw the rib plans in the trash and plot the point from the main plans" to "just use the full size plans, a quarter inch here and there doesn't make any difference". So I would just like to know is their is a consensus of opinion on this. Are the full size plans a improved design from the original (I also noticed vertical braces were added next to the spars on the full size plans), or just a tracing of someones rib using a very dull pencil and very wrinkled paper? I know that the paper the plans are printed on can shrink and expand but that alone doesn't account for all the differences. Thanks Rick Holland Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Rib profile
Date: Dec 09, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: At7000ft(at)aol.com To: dilatush(at)amigo.net Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:00 AM Subject: Thanks again Rick, You're welcome, we will look forward to your visit this spring. Re: the rib profile. Just loft the plans from the figures given. You will still find maybe 1/16 to 1/8 differences in a few spots, just blend these in with a batten. (stick of wood about like the cap strips used, 1/2 x 1/4). Remember the fabric still doesn't follow the profile in between the ribs, so nothing is exact anyway. Make sure that you have an adaquate radius on the leading edge, it might improve the stall characteristics a little. See you when it warms up at 14,000 feet - the view is terrific! Cordially, John NX114D Salida, Colorado John Just wanted to thank you again for your time talking about the Pietenpol. I would definitely like to take you up on your offer to come up to beautiful Salida this Spring and see your plane and ask a few more questions I will have by then. Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Good Fuselage??
Date: Dec 09, 2003
Sorry about the duplicates. It seems to be an Outlook problem that sends about a day and a half of messages every time I reboot. My IT person thinks he's found the problem (again). No evidence of a virus--just a strange configuration. I hate to say it, but you'll be among the first to know if it's really fixed. Again, please accept my apologies--I'm tired of reading it too. Gene -----Original Message----- From: w b evans [mailto:wbeevans(at)verizon.net] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? yes, I concur. what's up with that? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > Gene, aren't you getting a little tired of sending the same old email? > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hubbard, > Eugene > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:34 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > > Eric, > > First the disclaimer: I'm not a structural engineer, and I haven't run the > numbers for the Piet fuselage. I do understand a lot of the physics > involved. I built my Piet fuselage 1 inch spruce longerons. > > You're calculations are correct, at least for tensile strength. Stiffness > depends on dimension squared, and goes down even faster. There's a MIL-SPEC > on spruce--I don't have the number handy, but someone on the list probably > does. It lists substitution recommendations for other woods, including > Douglas fir. > > On the other hand, there seems to be a general consensus that the Piet is > overbuilt. You could check into the construction used for other wood planes > to get a feeling for what is done. The only data point I (think) I remember > is that I've seen an Ospery I amphibian that appeared to be built of 3/4 > inch fir. > > Doublers seem like an interesting idea. If I were going to do it that way, > I'd think about 8 long strips on the outsides of the corners, over the > gussets, with filler blocks between the gussets. 1/8 inch Douglas fir over > 1/8 inch filler would probably bring your strength back to nominal. > Stiffness would (probably) be better than using 1" spruce. I'd worry a bit > about using a spruce doubler over Douglas Fir because of a difference in > stiffness (Young's modulus to be specific). > > Let us know how you decide to go. > > Gene Hubbard > San Diego > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Williams [mailto:ewilliams805(at)msn.com] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? > > > > Hi everyone. This is my first posting to this list (although Ive been > lurking for a while) and I have a situation that I would really appreciate > any comments or suggestions on. > > While at Oshkosh this year, a very good friend of mine, who has too many > airplanes in various stages of repair, offered to give me a Piet project > that he had acquired several years ago from a friend of his (the builder). > I picked up the project this past weekend and it consists of a completed > fuselage structure with the plywood skin on the forward half and the floor, > a complete set of wing ribs, and a complete set of tail surfaces. > > The workmanship on the project looks to be acceptable however, one thing > that bothered me was the longerons and the other fuselage members appeared > to be small in cross-section. The builder happened to stop by while we were > > loading it all onto my trailer. He said that he had used douglas fir and > since his research proved to him that fir was 25% stronger than spruce, he > had reduced the dimensions of the members by 25% (from 1" to 3/4"). The > problem with this line of thinking, as I see it, is that when you multiply > 3/4" by 3/4" you end up with 0.56 square inches as the cross-sectional area > of the wood that was used, as compared to 1.00 square inch in a 1" x 1" > member. That means the longerons in my fuselage actually contain 44% less > material than had they been built using 1x1 stock. > > I would sincerely appreciate any thoughts you all might have as to the > usability of this fuselage. I should say that it "feels" strong and I did > sit in it while it was supported at the approximate landing gear points and > there appeared to be no deflection or creaking at all (there were a few > engine noises made however). I also wonder if I might be able to epoxy some > > 1/4" strips to the various members for added strength? The builder said he > had used West System epoxy to construct it. > > Thanks for your input. > > Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Naming of Mitchel Field
Date: Dec 09, 2003
Gene, It was on Long Island at Mitchell field. Got a picture around here that my father had gotten from work. It was their instruments, and showed Jimmy Dolittle standing next to this big biplane. The plane had a canvas "bonnet" that could be pulled over him, and the safety pilot in the front (I guess) held his hands up so the spectators could see that it was Jimmy flying blind. You can go here and read the paragraph ( the one above the colored pic of the seaplane) http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/main.html walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > The first blind flight by Doolittle was from College Park Airport in DC. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > > > > > Used to hear it called Billy Mitchel field, and think it was the one that > > the first blind flight was made from by Jimmy Dolittle. > > (My Dad worked at the place that made the instruments, in NJ) > > walt evans > > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> > > To: > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Naming of Mitchel Field > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick, > > > > > > Here is another one for you. How is Mitchel Field on Long Island named > > > after? > > > > > > Chris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> > > > To: > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Naming of Wright Field > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > Cliff's source says that the field was named after the brothers, but > it > > > > may be a little more involved than that. The history is a little > > > > confusing to me. One source says--First there was McCook Field, next, > > > > adjacent to it was Wilbur Wright Field. Then land was donated for > > Wright > > > > Field. Then Wilbur Wright Field was renamed Patterson Field. Then > the > > > > whole works became Wright-Patterson AFB. > > > > It seems that 2 fields with a total of three names became the > > > > AFB.......then there is the story of the field that predated the > above, > > > > where the brothers did their testing after the first flight--Huffman > > > > Prairie Flying Field which also is on W-P AFB. > > > > So, what is the correct answer? > > > > Dick Hartwig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 2003
From: Michael Fisher <mfisher(at)gci.net>
Subject: Chainsaw Art
Here are a few thoughts about the fir fuselage mentioned by Eric Williams. If plans dimensioned, it should measure 161 inches from firewall to tailpost. A true to plan Pietenpol Skyscout fuselage should be 153.75 inches in this dimension. The trusses are almost the same, except for a short extra bay in the Aircamper. The two structures, if plans built, should be within 16# of the same weight. A fuselage, with a .75 inch square fir truss, should weigh very close to a plans constructed Scout with .875 inch square spruce truss. Gross takeoff weights are very important. Some of those Aircampers out there are coming in at well over 700# empty. With two big guys and fuel, takeoff weights can edge up toward 1300#. This is heavier than B. H. P. ever intended, but somehow they do it (with more horsepower). A Scout with a small engine and six gallons of fuel could be flown at about 800# gross with much less stress on everything. I am primarily an engine development tinkerer,looking for an engine test bed. Light weight and good workmanship are more important to me than rigid specification compliance. There is what I believe to be a very fine plans built Scout fuselage available, but I have a couple reasons for not following up on the purchase. It might delay the completion of a Ford Model T engined Scout. This would be a very rare bird - - probably of heritage quality from a well known builder. Secondarily, I don't want to make substantial airframe commitments prior to engine testing which could be in a couple months. I just bolted on a four inch Ford crankshaft to SAE #2 propeller flange extension/adaptor. It weighs 3# 6oz and has a P. Ratt and Who? Itney look. I like it. My plan is to carve out a crude test club by attacking a railroad tie sized piece of Alaska black cottonwood ( a close cousin to yellow poplar, a recognized aircraft structural wood, see Part 43) with a chainsaw and a sidewinder. I can just picture my woodworker friends shuddering and and hiding their cabinet scrapers and spokeshaves. If I go too deep and need to lamimate, perhaps I'll use moose hoof glue. Best holiday wishes, Mike Fisher P. O. Box 347 Talkeetna, Alaska 99676 (907) 733-2356 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com>
Subject: New shop
I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building the structure (of my design. Yikes!) I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished should I consider? -Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Survey
Has anyone else recieved a request to fill out an attached survey regarding the use of epoxy in aircraft construction from a William R Liston of the V O Baker company? I don't want to open an attachment from an unknown source. It may be perfectly legit. He has provided phone numbers but that doesn't really mean anything. Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: while we're off the subject.....
They obviously didn't have anything to compare their lifestyle with. And just who is that other guy, anyway? Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: while we're off the subject..... > > Has anyone ever seen a photo of either of the Wright brothers with a smile > on thier faces ???? > My point is that neither of them ever married, they tinkered their whole > lives making a decent living and > travelling the world without being hen pecked or pushed around by some > whining woman and you never > see a smile on their faces. I don't get it. > > Oh yeah, and how did Punksatawny Phil get his name ? > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 09, 2003
Insulation, heat/cool system, lots of 115V and a few 220V plugs and lots of light. I don't have any of these but I wish I did. Chris T. Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
12/10/2003 07:31:52 AM Hey Mike: I think you should build it in my back yard, thus avoiding the increase in realestate taxes. Of course in exchange I will build my project in there ;-) John "Mike B." (at)matronics.com on 12/10/2003 12:10:30 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building the structure (of my design. Yikes!) I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished should I consider? -Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: John Myers <jmyers(at)powernet.org>
Subject: Re: New shop
Mike, FWIW my shop is much more functional after I added a bathroom including a small water heater. I also put in a shower but have never used it. Other half has threatened to exile me there someday, so it may come in handy. Fortunately, I put pvc plumbing traps and pipe before pouring the slab. Electric outlets and lighting is a big deal for me so good planning as you build your dream shop is a must. Good luck John At 11:10 PM 12/9/2003, you wrote: > > >I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I >was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building >the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > >I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had >installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building >specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, >what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished >should I consider? > >-Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
I would make sure that there is a vapor barrier under the slab for sure. Perimeter insulation for colder climates plus heating coils in the slab. Of course, if you are in a cold climate, insulate heavily. Cheap and easy now. difficult later. Lots of lighting and outlets. Master switches by the door. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas every day Quarterly newsletters on time Reasonable document reprints ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com>
When I asked this question to my father who always had a shop wherever we lived, his response was... "you can't build a shop too big and NEVER - EVER put a post in the middle!" 30'x40'x13' sounds great to me and the advice about lighting and power receptacles is right on. One suggestion on lighting, have two switches - one for minimum lighting, and the other turns on the rest. It's amazing how often you just trip in and out of the shop getting tools or parts and don't need all that light. I wired my shop this way and use that feature quite a bit. Hope that's of some help! ----------------------------------- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building the structure (of my design. Yikes!) I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished should I consider? -Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Mike, I built a 20'x20' two story garage/shop (my property is very small). Since I couldn't go wide, I went up. I'm assuming that you won't be putting on a second floor but if you are, make sure that you design for the least amount to no vertical supports holding up the floor. I spanned the whole 20'. Much wider and I would have to had run a beam and a row of columns down the middle of the space; not a good thing. Also, since my floor to ceiling was 7'-6", I am able to just reach the bottom of the ceiling. I put outlets on the ceiling so when I have my tablesaw or whatever in the middle of the room, I just go up... not across the floor, over the bench, and behind the shelves. If the ceiling isn't low enough to reach, run it up to 10' for the extra volume. You've already bought the floor and roof, a few extra feet of wall doesn't add much. If you are buying premanufactured roof trusses, talk to the lumber yard or manufacturer and see if they have the "bonus space" style available. Essentially, the center of the truss will have a nice open square, maybe 4' wide, in the middle that you can drop a floor onto and use as extra storage. It's real nice to have plenty of outlets, mount them all at 48". Floor level outlets in a garage doesn't make much sense. Put the air compressor on it own circuit (preferably in someone else's garage, mine's making me deaf). Install at least one 220V welding outlet near the garage door, I'm always using my MIG to fix something that I can't get in the shop. Not to mention wood shaving and welding sparks don't mix. Put flood lights on the outside to light up your outside work area. All outlets should be GFCI protected and if it's three car or larger, it needs floor drains (and possibly a grease separator) by BOCA and ICC code. I live in a small town with no code enforcement, lucky me. If you are planning on insulating and paneling (you are obviously made of money) use OSB for the bottom 4' and then drywall above. The OSB holds up better and the drywall is cheap. Painted white and covered with shelves and benches, you won't notice the OSB. If you really have the coin, replace the drywall with pegboard. A lawyer friend covered the whole inside of his garage with pine beadboard pegboard and had is stained... it looks beautiful but a little overkill to hang an extension cord, a rake, and a broom. Lots of lights. Consider how you are going to heat it. If you are going to be in there eight hours a day, five days a week, it makes sense to spend a little more money on a heating/cooling system and insulation. If it's just a few hours a week, the insulation will never return the investment. Consider underslab radiant heat. If you are near, I have a two year old 140000btu boiler that came out of the house we are remodeling that I can sell you (I'm really just trying to get it out of my shop). Any gas appliance in the space should be sealed combustion, although I use a kerosene heater (obviously an exposed flame). Airborne sawdust in the right density is explosive and it's possible to get there if the bag on your dust collector pops loose. Don't make it so nice that the wife and kids want to hang out in there. And stay strong right from the begining that it will NOT be a place to store Christmas decoration, the kids old toys, the treadmill that nobody uses, boxes and boxes of crap that should be thrown away or given to Goodwill. And you will need at least one Snap-On tool calendar (you know, the ones where there's a new girl each month holding a tool). It's wife repellant. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building the structure (of my design. Yikes!) I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished should I consider? -Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New shop
A hoist suspended from a track running the length of the shop, so you can move heavy stuff by yourself. Phone and Ethernet capability for ordering parts and those late nights reading this list on your laptop. A place for the coffee pot where it won't get filled with sawdust. Running water (and drainage) for aforementioned coffee pot and washing up. Overhead storage racks for tubing, wood, etc., and a comfortable place to hide William Wynne while he builds your Corvair engine under duress after you've kidnapped him. ;-) (that was a joke, by the way) john John Ford john(at)indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> piet(at)pointdx.com Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:10:30 AM >>> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building the structure (of my design. Yikes!) I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished should I consider? -Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
What a bunch of great suggestions! This list is just great. I have been thinking about my dream shop a lot lately and still picked up some great ideas. My shop will have a wood floor, so I can put electric outlets and sawdust suction system in the floor. Wood is cheaper but more work than cement. One suggestion on the master switch by the door, put it high, at least 5 1/2 feet, keeps it away from little hands. As we are talking dream shop here, it seems during construction it would be easy to plumb a PVC air system through the shop and have outlets for air as well as electricity. Skip ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: New shop
I think a lot of the guys on this list are jealous of your new shop, Mike. I know I am. One thing that often gets overlooked in shop space is the floor. New concrete needs to be sealed to keep it from chalking and putting cement dust in everything. If you seal it with a light colored floor treatment, such as white or very light gray, it will be much easier to find small things you've dropped and the place will be brighter for a given amount of lighting. The inevitable workplace safety inspection of a new government hangar space I worked in once discovered that the white painted floor saved nearly 30% on lighting costs. Mike Hardaway "Mike B." wrote: > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Go ahead and double the size!!!!! At least design it so it can be added-on to later (roof pitched the right way, etc.) bed > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Subject: Re: New shop
Fellow next door is building his dream shop. Started with a two bay car garage on the east side, 24X24, then the shop on the west side of the slab, 24X36 w/ plumbing. THEN his wife said, we need a guest suite ( for the in-laws) so up he went, apartment over shop, storage over garage w/ a lower roof. Then the wife said, dormer windows would look nice on the front side, sooooooooooo I'm hesitant to ask what this is costing but it will surely pan out as they are young and eager. It will be a very nice addition to our block. CMC in La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* explosions in 12 years. Works just great. One thing that he did that I thought was clever was to use a T to put the chuck about 1 foot above the end of the (vertical) pipe, then have a plain old water spigot type valve at the bottom end of the pipe to bleed out water and other crud periodically. Gadd, Skip wrote: > > What a bunch of great suggestions! This list is just great. I have been > thinking about my dream shop a lot lately and still picked up some great > ideas. > My shop will have a wood floor, so I can put electric outlets and sawdust > suction system in the floor. Wood is cheaper but more work than cement. > One suggestion on the master switch by the door, put it high, at least 5 1/2 > feet, keeps it away from little hands. > As we are talking dream shop here, it seems during construction it would be > easy to plumb a PVC air system through the shop and have outlets for air as > well as electricity. > Skip > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lynn & Doris Knoll" <dknoll(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Hi Mike, A friend of mine is having a shop built so I'll pass on these bits of information. He put in electrical outlets every 3 feet in all the walls about 5 feet up from the floor. May be overkill but they will be handy. He put every 6 outlets on a separate circuit. Also, don't skimp on insullation especially if you use propane. Hope this helps. Lynn Knoll Wichita, Piet/Corvair builder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
12/10/2003 12:46:42 PM If you live in a cold climate I would frame the walls with 2x6 instead of 2x4 this allowes more insulation and lower heating cost. "Lynn & Doris Knoll" (at)matronics.com on 12/10/2003 12:29:14 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop Hi Mike, A friend of mine is having a shop built so I'll pass on these bits of information. He put in electrical outlets every 3 feet in all the walls about 5 feet up from the floor. May be overkill but they will be handy. He put every 6 outlets on a separate circuit. Also, don't skimp on insullation especially if you use propane. Hope this helps. Lynn Knoll Wichita, Piet/Corvair builder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: New shop
And a nice, small color tv and fridge really come in handy too. I don't know how many ball games and 10 pm news stories I watched while building and sipping....... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com>
> > > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* > explosions in 12 > years. Works just great. I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and venting, etc. Non-pressure uses. If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of information and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance. One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing about PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use steel pipe. Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit different. It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded. Kent ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
I'm not completely endorsing the use of PVC for 120psi lines, but I will say that my family's cabinet/furniture shop that we had back in the mid 80's had about 2,500 ft of PVC air lines that went from the central compressor to all the assembly stations.... about 50 in all.... it worked for 7 years before we finally moved out of that building..... never failed. I'm of the opinion that it'll work fine... but there's no argument that copper would be better in the long run. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Hallsten Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* > explosions in 12 > years. Works just great. I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and venting, etc. Non-pressure uses. If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of information and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance. One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing about PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use steel pipe. Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit different. It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded. Kent = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
I don't know, the stuff's rated to 400psi. (This is the really thick-walled stuff.) That's a safety factor of more than 3.5 for this particular use. There's probably hundreds of feet of the stuff with plenty of splices. An explosion would be pretty "exciting", though. I bet brittleness might be a problem in really cold climates. He lives in Florida, though. Kent Hallsten wrote: > > >> >>My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* >>explosions in 12 >>years. Works just great. > > > I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and venting, etc. Non-pressure uses. > > If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of information and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance. One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing about PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use steel pipe. > > Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit different. It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded. > > Kent > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com>
> > I don't know, the stuff's rated to 400psi. (This is the really > thick-walled stuff.) That's a safety factor of more than 3.5 for this > particular use. There's probably hundreds of feet of the stuff with > plenty of splices. > > I read about ABS pipe being approved for compressed air use. Its called ABS Duraplus. It is flexible in that it will crush, whereas PVC would shatter. If you do a Google search on "pvc pipe air pressure" it comes up with some information, from OSHA and other groups. Those groups don't recommend it. A tiny nick or scratch on PVC can compromise the pipe and kaboom. Also, compressed air releases its energy quicker than water under pressure. Well anyway, if your going to use it be careful. Kent ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
I am simply amazed at the quantity and quality of responses from this list to a question like this. Glad I asked! Mike B. wrote: > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lynn & Doris Knoll" <dknoll(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Mike, I just thought of something, how about building a attached "dog house" with lots and lots of insulation for the air compressor. I get so tired of hearing that %%$$####@ thing! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "carl loar" <skycarl@buckeye-express.com>
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Cliff,,, I got one too. Had the same concern. sounds legit though,,,, Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Survey > > Has anyone else recieved a request to fill out an > attached survey regarding the use of epoxy in > aircraft construction from a William R Liston of > the V O Baker company? I don't want to open an > attachment from an unknown source. It may be > perfectly legit. He has provided phone numbers > but that doesn't really mean anything. > > Clif > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu>
Subject: New shop
Actually, water releases it's energy more quickly than air. The issue is one of volume more so than pressure. Water isn't very compressible, so there is less energy released as it reaches equilibrium than with air, which gets compressed to a tiny fraction of its original volume and expands considerably (much like an explosion) reaching equilibrium. That's why you always test air tanks with water. John >Also, compressed air releases its energy quicker than water under pressure. >Well anyway, if your going to use it be careful. John Ford john(at)indstate.edu 812-237-8542 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: new shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Just a thought to throw in, and hope I'm not repeating what someone else said on this thread... A new , big shop is nice, and I wish I could have had one, just didn't want to scare off anyone thinking of starting and not starting cause their "space" isn't up to specs. You can start and do all your ribs on the kitchen table if you really need to! I built my Piet in a 10x20 ft , below grade basement. Believe me, I didn't care where I was, as long as I was working on that beauty! Now it's flying ( well resting in the hanger, covered in snow) Ain't life grand! walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Two things - It's impossible to have too many electrical outlets (of sufficient current carrying ability) and it's impossible to have too much light. I have also found it useful to hang things from the ceiling joists (my workshop is in my basement), such as a come-along to hoist the engine, and also to hoist the fuselage while I built the gear under it. Obviously, you will want to make sure that you can get your project out once completed, and you might want to consider ventilation if you will be doing covering or painting in the shop. I have running water in mine which has been useful. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike B. Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building the structure (of my design. Yikes!) I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished should I consider? -Mike. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Survey
Date: Dec 10, 2003
I received it but haven't replied yet. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Subject: Pietenpol-List: Survey Has anyone else recieved a request to fill out an attached survey regarding the use of epoxy in aircraft construction from a William R Liston of the V O Baker company? I don't want to open an attachment from an unknown source. It may be perfectly legit. He has provided phone numbers but that doesn't really mean anything. Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: New shop
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Amen to that. My beer refrigerator in the shop has saved me many a trip up and down the stairs, plus it's a good place to stick all those stickers you collect at OSH and SNF. Another thing I have that is useful is a phone in the shop. Saves lots of trips upstairs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop And a nice, small color tv and fridge really come in handy too. I don't know how many ball games and 10 pm news stories I watched while building and sipping....... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 10, 2003
Subject: Re: New shop
In a message dated 12/10/03 4:02:40 PM Central Standard Time, dknoll(at)cox.net writes: << Mike, I just thought of something, how about building a attached "dog house" with lots and lots of insulation for the air compressor. I get so tired of hearing that %%$$####@ thing! >> I'm building a new shop, in an old two car garage, and I am DEFINATELY going to locate the air compressor out side. I also have three rows of flourescent lights (the new 1" diameter kind that works in low temperatures) for the full length, each row on a switch. Never enough light, or recepticles. Concrete floor. Electric heat - no explosive fuels. Snap-On calender. Hummm....does anyone know where I can get an airplane calender, with bikini babes ? Chuck Gantzer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2003
From: Roger & Kathy Green <rgreen(at)libby.org>
Subject: New shop
Shop thoughts: I put my air compressor in the bathroom, keeps the noise out of the shop. I put a lighted pilot switch by the door - one for the compressor and one for the water heater. I put in a lot of receptacle, 5 per circuit, but put every other one on a different circuit. I have built two shop now. I always make the walk through door 3 feet 6 inches or 4 feet wide. You will take a lot of things through that door. I have seen barn door tracks used for light duty over head trolley system. Put one near each side of your shop, running the full length and a another one attach to a light beam hanging between the first two. Put a chain hoist on the travelling car and now you can pick up that new Delta Unisaw (with 52 inch fence) from the back of your pickup and place anywhere in the shop! If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let light in and keep prying eyes out. Good luck - we want to see picture later! Random ROG Libby, Montana First rib still in jig. >pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New shop and a GREAT x-mas present for our military
heros!
Date: Dec 11, 2003
This is the best thread I've seen in months.! BUT , ya'll go to http://www.heromiles.org/ I just saw it on Fox News. This is a nice way to donate frequent flyer miles to our troops to get some home for a visit. I just donated all mine for Delta and US Air is in as of tonight according to the news - will donate them. too, Best , Bert (who just relocated his GN to a brand new hangar - hope to fly in 3 months) See ya! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger & Kathy Green" <rgreen(at)libby.org> Subject: Fwd: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > Shop thoughts: > > I put my air compressor in the bathroom, keeps the noise out of the shop. > I put a lighted pilot switch by the door - one for the compressor and one > for the water heater. > I put in a lot of receptacle, 5 per circuit, but put every other one on a > different circuit. > I have built two shop now. I always make the walk through door 3 feet 6 > inches or 4 feet wide. You will take a lot of things through that door. > I have seen barn door tracks used for light duty over head trolley > system. Put one near each side of your shop, running the full length and a > another one attach to a light beam hanging between the first two. Put a > chain hoist on the travelling car and now you can pick up that new Delta > Unisaw (with 52 inch fence) from the back of your pickup and place anywhere > in the shop! > > If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let light > in and keep prying eyes out. > > Good luck - we want to see picture later! > > Random ROG > Libby, Montana > First rib still in jig. > > > >pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: New shop
Pacific Flier www.pacificflyer.com Hummm....does anyone know where I can get an airplane calender, with bikini babes ? > > Chuck Gantzer > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: New shop
Or don't put any in at all. I don't miss them. After all, I'm there to build stuff. Windows just take up valuable wall space. You do want to hang that calender don't you? Clif > > If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let light > in and keep prying eyes out. > > Good luck - we want to see picture later! > > Random ROG > Libby, Montana > First rib still in jig. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: New Shop
Date: Dec 11, 2003
I have one workbench in my shop that is 2" x 16" . No big deal, but a few years ago, I put a shelf over the workbench that is made from 2 full sheets of plywood. the shelf is 4' x 16' and suspended from the ceiling in the front using 1/2" threaded rod and one long 2x6x16 (no posts). It is a great place for storing the big stuff like completed tailfeathers and cowlings. Also, I mounted 2- 8" lights under the shelf just for the workbench with its own switch, WoW what a difference that extra light makes! Before, the light was coming from behind me and my work was always in the (large) shadow. Agreeing with a previous post, you can't have too many electrical outlets or air outlets. I ripped out all my old black-iron piping and replaced it with pvc. No more rust stain in the compressed air. In the humid South, we always leave the drain valve on the air tank cracked open just a little to drain the water out. You won't lose a couple psi over a 15 minute period, but you will be surprised to see how much water flows out. I had to use a plastic pan that goes under a hot water heater and drain outside the compressor house to keep the floor dry. The cool steel tank will condense a lot of water out of the warm compressed air, similar to a cold glass of sweet tea sitting on the front porch in the summer. Building landing gear Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 11, 2003
I agree with the two items that Kent mentioned: I owned a cabinet shop and we used PVC to distribute compressed air (we were a start-up and were working on the cheap). We had it blow, fortunately no-one was hurt, but it was a LOUD explosion. About ten feet of 1" line turned into pieces up to 50' away. Our downfall was that the PVC was connected to the compressor directly and the vibration fatigued it. If you really must use PVC, feed it with a rubber or vinyl line. For your size shop, you really don't need much more than one fat pipe with a couple of quick-disconnects that you will plug your hose into anyway, so go steel. Also, PVC and plastic pipe will generate a static when used for dust collection and needs to be grounded. We used galvanized HVAC pipe/ductwork for our dust collection. The only piece of non-metalic pipe was a 10' long 4" flexible line running to the CNC router and it had a copper wire spirally wrapped in it's construction. It was stripped at one end and connected to the metal stuff. You knew when it wasn't because a spark would generate between the intake and the router bit (about a 1" jump) every second. This was not our normal operation. If you do end up getting that stick-it-to-a-shop-vac type dust collection from Home-Depot, find out how to ground it properly. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com> > > > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* > explosions in 12 > years. Works just great. I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and venting, etc. Non-pressure uses. If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of information and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance. One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing about PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use steel pipe. Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit different. It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded. Kent ________________________________________________________________________________
From: At7000ft(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Subject: Another fuselage width question
I have searched the archives for anything concerning widening the Piet fuselage to get a wider rear cockpit. Most people widen the entire fuselage (to 26 -28 inches) to get the rear seatback width to 23 or 24 outside width. My question is wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to not change the front of the fuselage at all, make the rear searback width 24 instead of 22" and bend the longerons a little more back to the tail? Even if the firewall width is 26", and the rear seat 24", the longerons still need to be bent back to 1 1/8" at the tail. Sorry if this is a stupid question. Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andimaxd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Subject: Re: Another fuselage width question
Rick: We did just that, and havent hit any major snags yet. We widened ours a full four inches... Max ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Hello All, I'm about to enter the fray, but before I do, I have a few questions, and would appreciate the wisdom of the group. First a little background info: I teach six-grade science and am planning on building a Piet in my classroom. My plans are to build the tail feathers, ribs, and fuse sides before taking it home to finish. I have experience with building R/C models, musical instruments, a couple of small boats, furniture, my house, etc, and I have long wanted to build an airplane, so this is not a spur of the moment idea. Thanks to small grant, I have about $600 to start, and I thought I could buy the plans, glue, and wood for the tail feathers. Anyway, on to the questions: I'm trying to decide which glue would be best to use in a classroom. I'm a little concerned about allergic sensitivity with T-88, and my experience with epoxy is such that I've had a few failures that leave me a little hesitant to use it. Given that, I'm considering using Aerolite, but I'm wondering what kind of odor it has? Is there a sensitivity issue with it, and/or does it have a strong odor? I don't want my kids getting sick, and all it would take is one negative experience to get my project booted out of school. I'd like to be able to give rides, but that front cockpit looks like it would be a bear to get in and out of. I checked out the plans for a front door, but wonder if it is structurally sound. I couldn't find much about it in the archives. I know it will add weight, but is there any consensus on this modification? Before plunging in, I'd like to try a Piet on for size. Is there anyone in southern Ohio who would let me look at a real live Piet and sit in the cockpit? I'm not asking for a free ride, I just want to see if I fit and how hard it is to get into the front cockpit. (I'm 5' 10" and 225 lbs.) Thanks for considering my questions, Bruce Cell phone switch rules are taking effect find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: "catdesign(at)intergate.com" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Another fuselage width question
Rick there are no stupid questions. Keep asking. I recall reading somewhere of a person who widened the back seat of his Sky Scout (isnt that what the single place Pietenpol is called?) fuselage to 24 inches. I dont believe he had any problems building it . He did say he had to steam or soak the longerons before bending them together. Wish I could remember who it was or where I read it. Think long and hard before you decide to change from the plans. If you widen the whole fuselage, you will have to buy more plywood. The best thing about the 24-inch width is you can use a half sheet of -inch plywood (Aircraft grade Mahogany and Birch is around $230 for a full sheet). The seats as well as the firewall are all 24-inches wide so adding one inch all the way forward of the back would mean you will need more 1/8-inch plywood as well (about $130 and $90 a sheet). I think the best idea for widening is to keep the fuselage 24-inches wide all the way back to the rear seat then taper. Just wrap a towel around where you want it to bend poor some hot water on it and wait. Then gently and slowly make the bend re- steaming as necessary. It would really stink to break a longeron at this point in the construction. Its just my opinion and I am not an engineer but cant imagine this would change the way the plane flies. Most importantly think long and hard about any change you decide to make. Keep asking around and I bet you can find someone who has already done what you are proposing. That is the great thing about building a 75-year-old design. If you really really really have to have it wider go ahead its your plane you can build it however you want too. Just be repaired for some negative comments from people who believe you should not change anything at all. On my fuselage, I built it 23-3/4-inches wide to the back of the front seat (before gluing on the 1/8-inch plywood sides). This way I could use a half sheet of 1/4-inch plywood for the floor. I then overlapped the 1/8-inch sides, having made sure that my height at the maximum section was just a hair under 24- inches tall (with the bottom 1/4-inch ply glued on). This way I could get the plywood pieces for the fuselage sides from one sheet of 1/8-inch and half a sheet of 1/4-inch plywood for the floor. As to the fuselage width at the tail, I think the drawings never really say how wide to make it. If it does please let me know. I made my fuselage taper to 1- inch wide to match up with the rudder. However, if you look at the drawing for the steel fuselage it tapers down to 3/4 diameter tubing so who knows how wide it should be. As near as I can tell, builders have been making it anywhere from 1 to 1-1/4 wide. Chris T. Sacramento, Ca Quoting At7000ft(at)aol.com: > > I have searched the archives for anything concerning widening the Piet > fuselage to get a wider rear cockpit. Most people widen the entire fuselage > (to 26 > -28 inches) to get the rear seatback width to 23 or 24 outside width. > > My question is wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to not change the front of > > the fuselage at all, make the rear searback width 24 instead of 22" and bend > > the longerons a little more back to the tail? Even if the firewall width is > 26", and the rear seat 24", the longerons still need to be bent back to 1 > 1/8" at > the tail. > > Sorry if this is a stupid question. > > Rick Holland > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Sport Pilot guess
Date: Dec 11, 2003
What's the odds that the Sport Pilot gets "unveiled" at the Kitty Hawk celebration next week? I can see it happening. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: At7000ft(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Another fuselage width question
Chris This is exactly what I was proposing. However in searching the archives I can't find anyone who has done it this way, they all widen from the firewall back. Has anyone built their fuselage this way? Thanks Rick Holland > I think the best idea > for widening is to keep the fuselage 24-inches wide all the way back to the > rear seat then taper. Just wrap a towel around where you want it to bend poor > some hot water on it and wait. Then gently and slowly make > the bend re- > steaming as necessary. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Sport Pilot guess
Date: Dec 11, 2003
That thought crossed my mind too. Sure hope so. Would sure give GA a shot in the arm. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sport Pilot guess > > What's the odds that the Sport Pilot gets "unveiled" at the Kitty Hawk > celebration next week? I can see it happening. > > > Robert Haines > Du Quoin, Illinois > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Subject: Re: Sport Pilot guess
Bob, I didn't realize you nawtherners were such dreamers. Never hatchi. Aren't you kids old and ugly enough to know that the feds won't act unless there is a big bonfire is under their (ask me no questions). Besides the EAA, AOPA, NAACP, VA, FAA, CAA, NRA, WPA, CCC and any other A organization won't want to share the Wright moment with anyone else. To heck with the thousands of old, tried and true pilots, who just want to get out there on the afternoons when it is pleasant weather and FLY for their own pleasure fully knowing their physical limitations, even though Oak City quacks don't care about their reasoning. As for odds: Not being a gambling man and not sure if it is legal to make a wager on the net, I will put up $100 and give you 5to1. Corky in La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Hi Bruce,Thought I would throw in my two cents worth on glue.I really dislike Aerolite because the stuff gets just like glass.Really really hard. I have seen a lot of Aerolite joints break.We all have our favorite glue but this is the last one I would choose. John P. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
In a message dated 12/11/03 10:27:52 AM Central Standard Time, bruce___@hotmail.com writes: << I teach six-grade science and am planning on building a Piet in my classroom. >> Hi Bruce ! Why wasn't there any teachers like you when I was in school ?? !! This is just the kind of project that will spur the imagination of those kids !! <> My experience with Aerolite is that it has a similar odor as T88, only it has failed a test that I did with it. I use T88 exclusively now, and have no allergic reactions. I would suggest that everyone use surgical gloves, and maybe even a plastic apron. I know how messy kids can be !! <> I am 6' tall, 205 lbs, and I have just a little bit of trouble getting in and out of the front pit, and I still have the 'X' cables on the right side of the cockpit. Getting in and out of the back pit is routine. Adding a front door adds complexity, weight, and weakens the structure. Forget about the door. <<(I'm 5' 10" and 225 lbs.)>> Terry B. - isn't he about your size ? Chuck Gantzer Wichita KS NX770CG "From trees & rags, to Stick & Rudder...Pietenpol's are Forever !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Use Scissor trusses instead of flat bottomed trusses so you have more head room. Head room becomes a big issue. Where is this located? You may want to put plastic tube in the convrete for a radiant heating system. Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > should I consider? > > -Mike. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 11, 2003
It is best to use iron pipe or copper for the air so it cools the air and allows the water to condense out into droplets. Moisture traps can only trap drops, not vapor. If you don't get the moisture out in the pipe, then it will surely condense when the pressure drops as it comes out of whatever you are using the air for ie. into your paint or air tools etc. PVC is inherently poor since it is not resistant to oil which inevitably gets entrained in air unless you have an oilless compressor. It would be bad to have a PVC line burst when you are in the shop. Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > What a bunch of great suggestions! This list is just great. I have been > thinking about my dream shop a lot lately and still picked up some great > ideas. > My shop will have a wood floor, so I can put electric outlets and sawdust > suction system in the floor. Wood is cheaper but more work than cement. > One suggestion on the master switch by the door, put it high, at least 5 1/2 > feet, keeps it away from little hands. > As we are talking dream shop here, it seems during construction it would be > easy to plumb a PVC air system through the shop and have outlets for air as > well as electricity. > Skip > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 11, 2003
Ideally, on the morning of day two of the concrete, cover the entire slab with a continuous puddle of water and keep it full for a month. All the conrete must be covered. This will slow the curing and allow highest strength to be developed. second best is to hose the slab down and then completely cover the slab with plastic sheet to keep the water from evaporating. Hose it down everyday and keep it drenched, especially in areas in the sun. Poly plastic is cheap. My 4000 PSI (30 day) compressive strength rated concrete was at about 3000 PSI at 30 days, but then tested at 5800 at 60 days. SO it was worth it. chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > I think a lot of the guys on this list are jealous of your new shop, Mike. I > know I am. > One thing that often gets overlooked in shop space is the floor. New concrete > needs to be sealed to keep it from chalking and putting cement dust in > everything. If you seal it with a light colored floor treatment, such as > white or very light gray, it will be much easier to find small things you've > dropped and the place will be brighter for a given amount of lighting. The > inevitable workplace safety inspection of a new government hangar space I > worked in once discovered that the white painted floor saved nearly 30% on > lighting costs. > > Mike Hardaway > > > "Mike B." wrote: > > > > > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I > > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building > > the structure (of my design. Yikes!) > > > > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had > > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building > > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly, > > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished > > should I consider? > > > > -Mike. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 11, 2003
PVC is excellent for the vacuum system. You can run a bare copper wire through it to collect the static electricity. Just make sure it is grounded. Sawdust is like grain in a grain elevator. When it is on the move and suspended it is highly explosive, just like the new MOAB they tested. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > > > > > > > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* > > explosions in 12 > > years. Works just great. > > I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and venting, etc. Non-pressure uses. > > If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of information and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance. One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing about PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use steel pipe. > > Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit different. It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded. > > Kent > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: dave rowe <rowed044(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian myths
I think I'm leaning towards Bear, not a lot of beavers here. We do have lots of cougars, but they don't want to sit still while you shave their fur. . . Still waiting for the wife to finish chewing the rawhide for the flying wires!! Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > Dave wrote- > > >Here in Canada all we need is a spotlight and a whistle. > > Truly the spirit of simple homebuilding, eh? > > >We have twice the land and 1/10th the population > >we figure hey, what are the chances of hitting one another. > > C'mon; you expect us to believe those numbers? Canada actually has only > 1.073 times the total area (3,855,103 sq. mi. versus 3,593,765 sq. mi. for > the U.S.) and much of that is water, which you guys fly over as readily as > you do over land. And as far as population, you actually only have nearly > 1/11th the population (2001 figures... 31,021,000 Canadians versus > 284,797,000 U.S. citizens). But you've gotta figure that a good fraction of > those Canadians are Quebecois and you know they're much more likely to hit > one another ;o) > > >I suppose you guys don't use hand-carved props held together with > >Moose Glue! > > Um... don't rule it out. We used to have this guy called "The Fisherman" > here on the list. Check the archives for some interesting reading ;o) Now > I guess the next thing you'll start with is that you're going to tan some > beaver hides to make the leather for the coaming around your cockpits, eh? > > Holiday greetings to our flying friends up north! > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > Cell phone switch rules are taking effect find out more here. > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Another fuselage width question
It seems to me that there is no "right way". I did mine the way I did to keep the side curve gentle as in the original. On drawing out a plan view with it 24 to the rear seat back, I didn't like it, to much curve for my taste. I also felt that it would put too much stress on the small amount of cross bracing in the top of the foreward area, trying to pull it apart.All that steaming gives me the willys. To much work! Also that much more curve in the turtledeck sides means a lot of fiddling with the stringers to make them look right. Clif > > Chris > > This is exactly what I was proposing. However in searching the archives I can't find anyone who has done it this way, they all widen from the firewall back. Has anyone built their fuselage this way? > > Thanks > > Rick Holland > > > I think the best idea > > for widening is to keep the fuselage 24-inches wide all the way back to the > > rear seat then taper. Just wrap a towel around where you want it to bend poor > > some hot water on it and wait. Then gently and slowly make > > the bend re- > > steaming as necessary. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 12, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian myths
Certainly enough bears on the Island. Maybe a little trip up Gold River way for a little lantern road kill? Or maybe just out to Point No Point. Clif > > I think I'm leaning towards Bear, not a lot of beavers here. We do have > lots of cougars, but they don't want to sit still while you shave their > fur. . . Still waiting for the wife to finish chewing the rawhide for > the flying wires!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Gesh, I don't know about a Piet as a 6th grade school project. Aren't those kids still trying to color in between the lines? But seriously, a Piet is a several year process and if you had a few of them work every class period for weeks, I doubt you would have much of anything that looks like an aircraft. Maybe only the tail feathers or a handful of ribs. I would think 6th graders would need a little bit more instant gratification to stay interested. I don't want to be a stick in the mud here, but a Piet project may be a little out of reach for them. If the goal is to take a year or three and build the whole plane, try a simpler design, like a Volksplane. Real basic wooden construction. That way the original students to start the project may still be in Junior High or High School and get to see the finished plane. Again, I don't want to stop you here... I wish there were more teachers like you. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gnwac(at)cs.com
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Subject: Re: New shop
Mike, Thanks for the video tape. I just got the chance to watch it. A GREAT job on the BASSET HOUND production and the tons of resourceful construction tips. Hope that you don't mind some of your ideas to be used. I know that I can turn to you and the list for info later on. I have never flown, heard or sat in a Piet, but boy you have lifted my spirits of what I can expect. Thanks again, Greg Menoche ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gnwac(at)cs.com
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Subject: Re: New shop
While considering the shop idea and reading responses for a couple of days, I have seen many steel sheds or pole barns as they are called in our area with a transparent ribbed material that is about 24 "in height just under the roof's edge. With all the talk of lighting, why pay for something that we can get for free. Greg Menoche ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Kitty Hawk
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Any other Piet'ers going to Kitty Hawk? Maybe we need to have a lunch together or something. Barry Davis - leaving at 5am Saturday ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New shop
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Remember - No Insulation in the skylight areas. Decide which you can live with - Heating/Cooling cost or Lighting cost. You have to pay one or the other, there are no free lunches. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Gnwac(at)cs.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop > > While considering the shop idea and reading responses for a couple of days, > I have seen many steel sheds or pole barns as they are called in our area > with a transparent ribbed material that is about 24 "in height just under the > roof's edge. With all the talk of lighting, why pay for something that we can > get for free. > Greg Menoche > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Kitty Hawk
Date: Dec 12, 2003
I'm heading down there about 9:00 AM Saturday (unfortunately, in a Cherokee, nothing exciting). Will be down there at least through Thursday. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Davis Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kitty Hawk Any other Piet'ers going to Kitty Hawk? Maybe we need to have a lunch together or something. Barry Davis - leaving at 5am Saturday ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lauritz Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Travel Air Model A aero engine
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Update on Travel Air Aero: Just found out that Bud Rogers, the man behind Travel Air Aero was killed in a traffic accident on November 29th. The general aviation community lost another 'veteran from the good old days'. I have known Bud for over 15 years and despite a load of adversities he was as he always was a truly good man, an honest man and a man of integrity who was always willing to lend a hand. I know several Pieters knew Bud and will mourn his passing as I do. Lou Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Travel Air Model A aero engine > > Here is the information on the Travel Air Aviation -Model A Ford > conversion that was pictured in Sport Aviation. Their price seems > reasonable for a very complete engine (does not include prop flange.) > The only thing that I would question is the 7:1 compression ratio. I > have read from other builders that for crank and rod longevity 6:1 is > about max. They do seem flexible though and may be willing to build to > your specs. Their address is 1380 Flightline Blvd., DeLand Airport, > Deland FL 32724. Cell phone 407-497-1090. > Dick Hartwig > THE MODEL A ENGINE > People ask the question, why would a person want to use a 70-year-old > design in a modern homebuilt aircraft? The answer is that the Model A is > a simple, well designed, low priced, four cylinder engine with good > weight to torque ratio. The engine also has a long stroke and develops > maximum torque at low RPM. > The Model A engine was used in several aircraft during the 1930's and > currently powers many aircraft of the Pietenpol line. Probably the > biggest advantage of the Model A is that a multitude of high performance > equipment was developed in the past and is still available today as new > production. Model A powered sprint cars and jalopies are now active in > numerous races and hill climbs across the country. As an example, there > are several different cylinder heads currently available, some aluminum > some cast iron, with various compression ratios. For our particular > configuration, we use a cast aluminum head with dual spark plugs in each > cylinder. There are also various ignition systems available from pure > electronics to the older points and condenser. We use a dual electronic > distributor for our set up. > Carburetors are another area with lots of choices. We use a dual set up > with twin Solexes. Many of the racers prefer either a single or dual > model 94 or 97 Stromberg. Several types of up-drafts are also available. > A selection of different camshaft grinds are also available to enhance > performance. > With various up-grades in performance equipment, it is possible to > achieve torque ranges over 160 lbs./ft at crankshaft speeds as low as > 2000 RPM. This little engine will put out half the torque at 2000 RPM > that the Chevrolet 350 engine puts out at 3000 RPM, at less than one half > the weight. Torque at low speeds is important when choosing an efficient > propeller. > There are numerous other mods that we incorporate in our engines such as > pressure oil systems, inserted bearings, aluminum radiators, etc. > Specifications: > Engine basic weight including dual carbs, dual ignition, exhaust pipes, > alternator 196 lbs. > Aluminum radiator and coolant - 22 lbs > Starter Assembly - 10 lbs. > Note - Weight can be reduced by using single ignition, single carb. and > manual start. > > MODEL A "AERO" By Travel Air Aviation > Basic Engine Package > 1. Reconditioned original Model A block > 2. Cylinders bored .080 over standard. > 3. Block line bored and machined for modem insert bearings. Block > modified for full pressure oil system. > 4. Crankshaft reconditioned, balanced and drilled for full oil pressure > system. > 5. Connecting rods balanced and machined for modem inserts. > 6. New pistons, rings, valves, springs, guides, tappets, seats, keepers, > oil pump kit and water pump. > 7. Camshaft machined for high performance, (special grind) > 8. Custom made light weight aluminum oil pan. > 9. Light weight aluminum cylinder head with dual spark plugs and 7/1 > compression. > 10. Custom dual electronic ignition with top mounted distributor. > 11. Dual Solex carburetors with associated intake manifold. > 12. Custom exhaust - "straight pipes" > 13. High torque starter including drive pulley/ring assembly and starter > mount. > 14. Light-weight alternator. (30 amp) > Complete package includes spark plugs, ignition wiring, drive belt, break > in oil and oil filter installation. All engines pre-run on test stand > prior to delivery. > Price complete $4,880.00 (plus sales tax for Florida residents and > shipping) > Deposit on complete engine - $2,000.00. Balance on delivery. Delivery > time - generally 30 to 60 days depending on work load. > 30 to 60 days depending on work load. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ellie & Jim Sheen" <sheenej(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Kitty Hawk
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Jack, Barry and other Piet lovers bound for Kitty Hawk, I have just started building my Piet in January 2003 and having a great learning experience. I would enjoy meeting you and other Pietenpol folks at Kitty Hawk. My wife ,Ellie, and I are driving (a lot less exciting than your Cherokee, Jack) . We plan to leave Gettysburg,PA about 8:00 AM Saturday and arrive in Nags Head about 4:30 PM. We can be reached at 252-490-3320, at Ridgway House, 503 Hesperides Dr., Old Nags Head Cove. We plan to be staying until Friday. Please call and stop by to say hello. If you cannot reach us at that number, try our cell phone @ 717-360-6382. Have a safe trip. Jim Sheen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Kitty Hawk > > I'm heading down there about 9:00 AM Saturday (unfortunately, in a Cherokee, > nothing exciting). Will be down there at least through Thursday. > > Jack Phillips > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Davis > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 1:09 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kitty Hawk > > > Any other Piet'ers going to Kitty Hawk? > Maybe we need to have a lunch together or something. > Barry Davis - leaving at 5am Saturday > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Kitty Hawk and I am in a bind
Date: Dec 12, 2003
Guys, I bought a Continental A-50-3 on ebay a week and a half ago. The guy that has it lives about 10 miles from Kitty Hawk in a town called Wanchese, NC. I need to have it shipped back to Minneapolis but he is a pain in the butt to deal with because if he took the cylinders off and boxed them separately, the whole thing could be shipped for about 100 bucks. He originally agreed to do this before I bid. After the auction closed, he changed his mind. Now shipping looks more like 300-350 bucks which is way out of line. I will be driving a car back from Connecticut on Interstate 80 sometime in the next few weeks. If I could get the engine as far as Ohio and someone could store it til then, I could get it. Can anybody help? Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kitty Hawk > > Any other Piet'ers going to Kitty Hawk? > Maybe we need to have a lunch together or something. > Barry Davis - leaving at 5am Saturday > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Travel Air Model A aero engine
Date: Dec 13, 2003
Dick, The 6:1 limitation is primarily becuase of the squashability of the babbitt used in stock engines. As these Travel Air engines use bearing inserts, the engine is essentially converted over to the latest bearing technology so the 7:1 is fine. I don't think you can get much more than 7:1 in a flathead design without starting to run into combustion issues due to the flathead combustion chamber design. Yeah, too bad this guy is gone. Maybe someone else is there to pick up the torch... Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lauritz Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Travel Air Model A aero engine > > Update on Travel Air Aero: > > Just found out that Bud Rogers, the man behind Travel Air Aero was killed > in a traffic accident on November 29th. > > The general aviation community lost another 'veteran from the good old > days'. I have known Bud for over 15 years and despite a load of > adversities he was as he always was a truly good man, an honest man and a > man of integrity who was always willing to lend a hand. > > I know several Pieters knew Bud and will mourn his passing as I do. > > Lou Larsen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <rhartwig11(at)juno.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Travel Air Model A aero engine > > > > > > Here is the information on the Travel Air Aviation -Model A Ford > > conversion that was pictured in Sport Aviation. Their price seems > > reasonable for a very complete engine (does not include prop flange.) > > The only thing that I would question is the 7:1 compression ratio. I > > have read from other builders that for crank and rod longevity 6:1 is > > about max. They do seem flexible though and may be willing to build to > > your specs. Their address is 1380 Flightline Blvd., DeLand Airport, > > Deland FL 32724. Cell phone 407-497-1090. > > Dick Hartwig > > THE MODEL A ENGINE > > People ask the question, why would a person want to use a 70-year-old > > design in a modern homebuilt aircraft? The answer is that the Model A is > > a simple, well designed, low priced, four cylinder engine with good > > weight to torque ratio. The engine also has a long stroke and develops > > maximum torque at low RPM. > > The Model A engine was used in several aircraft during the 1930's and > > currently powers many aircraft of the Pietenpol line. Probably the > > biggest advantage of the Model A is that a multitude of high performance > > equipment was developed in the past and is still available today as new > > production. Model A powered sprint cars and jalopies are now active in > > numerous races and hill climbs across the country. As an example, there > > are several different cylinder heads currently available, some aluminum > > some cast iron, with various compression ratios. For our particular > > configuration, we use a cast aluminum head with dual spark plugs in each > > cylinder. There are also various ignition systems available from pure > > electronics to the older points and condenser. We use a dual electronic > > distributor for our set up. > > Carburetors are another area with lots of choices. We use a dual set up > > with twin Solexes. Many of the racers prefer either a single or dual > > model 94 or 97 Stromberg. Several types of up-drafts are also available. > > A selection of different camshaft grinds are also available to enhance > > performance. > > With various up-grades in performance equipment, it is possible to > > achieve torque ranges over 160 lbs./ft at crankshaft speeds as low as > > 2000 RPM. This little engine will put out half the torque at 2000 RPM > > that the Chevrolet 350 engine puts out at 3000 RPM, at less than one half > > the weight. Torque at low speeds is important when choosing an efficient > > propeller. > > There are numerous other mods that we incorporate in our engines such as > > pressure oil systems, inserted bearings, aluminum radiators, etc. > > Specifications: > > Engine basic weight including dual carbs, dual ignition, exhaust pipes, > > alternator 196 lbs. > > Aluminum radiator and coolant - 22 lbs > > Starter Assembly - 10 lbs. > > Note - Weight can be reduced by using single ignition, single carb. and > > manual start. > > > > MODEL A "AERO" By Travel Air Aviation > > Basic Engine Package > > 1. Reconditioned original Model A block > > 2. Cylinders bored .080 over standard. > > 3. Block line bored and machined for modem insert bearings. Block > > modified for full pressure oil system. > > 4. Crankshaft reconditioned, balanced and drilled for full oil pressure > > system. > > 5. Connecting rods balanced and machined for modem inserts. > > 6. New pistons, rings, valves, springs, guides, tappets, seats, keepers, > > oil pump kit and water pump. > > 7. Camshaft machined for high performance, (special grind) > > 8. Custom made light weight aluminum oil pan. > > 9. Light weight aluminum cylinder head with dual spark plugs and 7/1 > > compression. > > 10. Custom dual electronic ignition with top mounted distributor. > > 11. Dual Solex carburetors with associated intake manifold. > > 12. Custom exhaust - "straight pipes" > > 13. High torque starter including drive pulley/ring assembly and starter > > mount. > > 14. Light-weight alternator. (30 amp) > > Complete package includes spark plugs, ignition wiring, drive belt, break > > in oil and oil filter installation. All engines pre-run on test stand > > prior to delivery. > > Price complete $4,880.00 (plus sales tax for Florida residents and > > shipping) > > Deposit on complete engine - $2,000.00. Balance on delivery. Delivery > > time - generally 30 to 60 days depending on work load. > > 30 to 60 days depending on work load. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 12, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Survey
Well, I sent it. Their emphasis is on kit planes so I wonder what they're thinking now that they've received these non kit messages. I emphasized that I am NOT building a kit. Clif RE: Pietenpol-List: Survey > > I received it but haven't replied yet. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Anodizing
Corvair engines for homebuilt aircraft Here's a little something that may be of interest http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize99.html Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitty Hawk and I am in a bind
> >Guys, > >I bought a Continental A-50-3 on ebay a week and a half ago. The guy that >has it lives about 10 miles from Kitty Hawk in a town called Wanchese, NC. > >I need to have it shipped back to Minneapolis but he is a pain in the butt >to deal with because if he took the cylinders off and boxed them separately, >the whole thing could be shipped for about 100 bucks. He originally agreed >to do this before I bid. After the auction closed, he changed his mind. >Now shipping looks more like 300-350 bucks which is way out of line. > >I will be driving a car back from Connecticut on Interstate 80 sometime in >the next few weeks. If I could get the engine as far as Ohio and someone >could store it til then, I could get it. > >Can anybody help? > >Chris Bobka Chris, I'm not going to Kitty Hawk, but I live about 45 min. south of I-80 in NE Ohio & would be happy to store the engine if someone can get it to here - plenty of room. We could also put you up for the night if you're not too fussy about the condition of our guest/junk room. It's a long drive from here to Mpls. - about 14 hrs. - I know, I did it this summer - & getting around Chicago is a pain in the butt. BTW, Wanchese is not far from Kitty Hawk. It used to be the primary commercial fishing boat harbor on the Outer Banks, not sure about that now. Everyone have fun at the '100th' - wish I could be there. Kip Gardner (getting homesick for SE VA. & Ne North Carolina) North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net>
Subject: Re: Kitty Hawk and I am in a bind
Date: Dec 13, 2003
Chris, If the A-50 is like the other Continentals he just made a major discovery. The cylinders don't come off easy. They are probably the WORST part of a rebuild. I live in Virginia Beach and have hangars at PVG and SFQ. If you can get the engine up to the Virginia Carolina border you can store it in one of my hangars and maybe we can leap frog it back to you. Takes a longer time but shipping and storage are free. Better yet get away from those Minneapolis winters and come down where the weather is grand in the winter (50 today and sunny). Around mid February this place will look like the Bahamas to someone from your part of the country. We haven't had snow last past noon the day it falls more than a couple of days in the last 20 years. Either way I can store it for free and we can work out the rest of the trip if you are interested. Hank (grew up in Omaha and NEVER want to see snow again) Jarrett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kitty Hawk and I am in a bind > > Guys, > > I bought a Continental A-50-3 on ebay a week and a half ago. The guy that > has it lives about 10 miles from Kitty Hawk in a town called Wanchese, NC. > > I need to have it shipped back to Minneapolis but he is a pain in the butt > to deal with because if he took the cylinders off and boxed them separately, > the whole thing could be shipped for about 100 bucks. He originally agreed > to do this before I bid. After the auction closed, he changed his mind. > Now shipping looks more like 300-350 bucks which is way out of line. > > I will be driving a car back from Connecticut on Interstate 80 sometime in > the next few weeks. If I could get the engine as far as Ohio and someone > could store it til then, I could get it. > > Can anybody help? > > Chris Bobka > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kitty Hawk > > > > > > Any other Piet'ers going to Kitty Hawk? > > Maybe we need to have a lunch together or something. > > Barry Davis - leaving at 5am Saturday > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
"piet discussion"
Subject: looking for an A65 prop hub
Date: Dec 13, 2003
I'm looking for a prop hub for an A65 with a tapered shaft. Been checking on ebay for awhile. Got to start collecting for the next project. Thanks walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 13, 2003
Subject: Re: looking for an A65 prop hub
Walt, It's a lot more fun and more relaxing when you build the second one. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2003
From: dave rowe <rowed044(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Help me decide
I agree with DJ, although I have never ordered wood from AS&S, I have ordered several books. I have repeatedly told them to mark the customs forms as containing books, and not aircraft parts, as there is no duty on books, but they still did so. There is far too much competition out there looking for my business for me to bother with them again. "Hubbard, Eugene" wrote: > > > DJ, > > I did not find the quality of the AS&S wood to be excellent--there were too > many capstrips that I couldn't use because of the grain angle. I'm not > talking about boarderline 1:12 here--more like 1:4. I was much happier with > Wicks' wood, and had it shipped across country for spars and longerons. > > OTHO, I've found their service pretty good for everything else (except that > they always seem to have tubing backordered. > > Gene > > -----Original Message----- > From: DJ Vegh [mailto:djv(at)imagedv.com] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Help me decide > > > yes the price includes plans for the wing. You may use clipped J-3 wings if > you choose but there are no plans for that particular conversion (that I > know of) > > I bought my wood kit from AS&S and I too saw the price difference between > the GN1 kit and the Piet. I'm not exactly sure why there is a difference > other than the GN-1 requires a few more board feet?? not really sure. > > The AS&S kit is not complete. You can plan on spending about another $300 > or so on more wood that for some reason they left out. I contacted them > about it 2 years ago but as of now they still have not corrected the missing > pieces. I don't recall off hand exactly which pieces they are but I think > they were pieces used in the tail section and the wing rib cap strips. > > You will also need to get some plywood as this is not included in the kit. I > used BS1088 Okoume marine ply used for making canoes. I got it here: > > http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/Plywoods-us/plywoods-us.html > > I got all my 1/4" and 1/8" from there and the bill was like $220 shipped to > my door. > > It's about 500% cheaper than real MS aircraft ply and the quality is damn > near as good. In fact, it's got a Lloyd's approval#. > > In all honesty I would highly suggest getting your Spruce from Wick's. > I've had it with AS&S. They have finally done it for me by "losing" my > refund for a defective CHT gauge I returned many many weeks ago. There's a > list of ways they have done me wrong but that was the straw that broke the > camels back for me. > > anyways... don't mean to ramble on about AS&S.. use them if you like. There > quality of wood is excellent. If you go with AS&S be prepared to wait about > 8-10 weeks to get your wood. Wicks wood will get to you MUCH MUCH quicker. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > - > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" <fly1m1(at)comcast.net> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Help me decide > > > > > > I am new to the list and am looking for as much info as possible about > > choosing between the Pietenpol and the GN-1. > > I have noticed that the plans for the GN-1 are only $50. Does that > > include the wing or do you have to use J-3 wings? > > Also, a look at the wood kits for the Piet & GN-1 in AS&S has a price > > difference of about $300. What are the main > > differences in the in the two designs that are reflected in those > > prices? > > Thanks for all the help, > > Christopher W. E. Smith > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 15, 2003
WORK_AT_HOME Thanks to all for your replies. Youve talked me out of the door idea, and the Aerolite glue doesnt sound like the way to go either. I think Ill use the T-88 and get gloves, masks, and exhaust the fumes outside. I think Ill be okay if I glue up small batches near the end of the day and run the exhaust fan overnight. Sound reasonable? Robert, you make some good points. 6th graders have a wide range of abilities some cant even color between the lines while others are quite handy- but they are young enough to still be interested in learning. Right now I have a student who is building a rubber powered FF model. I have him come in during lunch so that we can work without the other students bothering us, and I have been amazed at his abilities. I show him what to do, and he does it with great precision. The secret to working with kids of this age is to break down the job into small bits and work with only one or two students at a time. For my Piet, I expect it to take 10 years, and I imagine that Ill only build the tail feathers and the ribs in class. I will do the major work at home, and bring in the pieces ready to glue. Maybe Ill build a miter box/jig and cut the rib pieces at school. I know that many wont get to see the project finished, but I think its valuable for them to actually build something rather than just push papers around. The Volksplane is probably a good idea, but Ive always wanted a Piet :-) Thanks for your input! Bruce Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 14, 2003
Bruce, Aerolite IS the way to go. Mix the powder with water and put it on one side, brush a liquid activator on the other side and you can wait a few minutes if you want before joining. Put the two pieces together and nail or weight it down for clamping and voila. There is no better way to build ribs than this. Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > Thanks to all for your replies. Youve talked me out of the door idea, and > the Aerolite glue doesnt sound like the way to go either. I think Ill use > the T-88 and get gloves, masks, and exhaust the fumes outside. I think Ill > be okay if I glue up small batches near the end of the day and run the > exhaust fan overnight. Sound reasonable? > > Robert, you make some good points. 6th graders have a wide range of > abilities some cant even color between the lines while others are quite > handy- but they are young enough to still be interested in learning. Right > now I have a student who is building a rubber powered FF model. I have him > come in during lunch so that we can work without the other students > bothering us, and I have been amazed at his abilities. I show him what to > do, and he does it with great precision. > > The secret to working with kids of this age is to break down the job into > small bits and work with only one or two students at a time. For my Piet, I > expect it to take 10 years, and I imagine that Ill only build the tail > feathers and the ribs in class. I will do the major work at home, and bring > in the pieces ready to glue. Maybe Ill build a miter box/jig and cut the > rib pieces at school. I know that many wont get to see the project > finished, but I think its valuable for them to actually build something > rather than just push papers around. > > The Volksplane is probably a good idea, but Ive always wanted a Piet :-) > > Thanks for your input! > Bruce > > Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the > FREE McAfee online computer scan! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Subject: Re: New shop
In a message dated 12/12/03 3:41:29 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov writes: << Kinda like when we had about 7 Piets in the air to play with each other at Brodhead last summer on Sat. Eve. Larry William's Yellow Ford really was easy to see at all times. Just like a black hound in the snow ! >> That was the best 'White Knuckles' flying I've ever done !! It seemed like Pietenpols were everywhere !! That evening was definately the highlight of my trip to Brodhead / Oshkosh. Next summer, we need to flight plan a formation to do a couple of fly bys, with a camara plane. Mike C., weren't you and Steve E. on 'Dawn Patrol' in '99 ? I understand you guys woke everybody up at about 5:30 or 6:00 am. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: fiberglass
pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com For those of you plugging away with fiberglass parts; http://sonex260.wheelsup.org/Plug/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on the floor.I thought he had just screwed up so I asked him for the rest of the glue.My son and I did some test pieces that seemed OK so we built the wings for our Fisher 101 using it.After 3 to 4 years we had to retire the plane because we kept finding broken glue joints.There is no way I would trust my neck to that glue again! John P. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Why I love fibreglass
Chris,just a quick tip. If you give the foam - plaster a coating of deleted water putty before the latex paint it really helps seal everything up.I believe I gave my Emeraude cowling mold two coats. John P. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com>
> > Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built > the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on > his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came > back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on > the floor. > Dan, You're talking about Aerolite? Kent T-88 user ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Yes, Kent. I used Aerolite for my ribs and have had no problem. They were built 10 years ago. I used mahoghany ply gussets. If you guys used birch ply, did you scuff sand the whole sheet of plywood to break the glaze as recommended by Bingelis? chris in minneapolis, not sacremento ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > > > > > Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built > > the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on > > his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came > > back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on > > the floor. > > > > > Dan, > You're talking about Aerolite? > > Kent > T-88 user > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
From: Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Please be specific. Exactly which glue are you referring to? on 12/15/03 7:20, dan john at ballmell(at)yahoo.com wrote: > > Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built > the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on > his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came > back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on > the floor.I thought he had just screwed up so I asked > him for the rest of the glue.My son and I did some > test pieces that seemed OK so we built the wings for > our Fisher 101 using it.After 3 to 4 years we had to > retire the plane because we kept finding broken glue > joints.There is no way I would trust my neck to that > glue again! John P. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: '99 dawn patrol over Brodhead
Chuck-- I can't take credit for doing any dawn patrol flying at Brodhead '99 for the big gathering headed for the 75th Anniversary of the Piet design at Oshkosh. I stayed overnight at Watertown, Wisconsin and slept at a comfy Holiday Inn Express right on the airport with a second floor room that faced the runway and my plane tied down under the lights of a pretty green and white beacon rotating all night long. If you had white knuckles flying around Brodhead this past July, you should have seen it when they peaked out with double that amount in the air. I had the Champ there in 1992 with the door off giving rides and my head was on a swivel like you wouldn't believe. Felt like what O'hare might have been like in 1933 or something. Most of the guys knew too that you need to be able to make the runway from anywhere in the pattern should your engine quit.....but we had some airline type approaches that you see at lots of fly-in's that stretch the traffic pattern out over Detroit. Nothing like shooting a 3 mile final at a grassroots fly-in........waste of time ! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Chris, Well, you certainly join a lot of others that have used Aerolite on the ribs. I'm curious if you made any significant design changes....like to the width of the fuse or anything else to the original design (I'm assuming you built the Air Camper or maybe it was a Scout)? Just curious. Jim in Plano.....bead blasting and powder coating...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > Yes, Kent. I used Aerolite for my ribs and have had no problem. They were > built 10 years ago. I used mahoghany ply gussets. > > If you guys used birch ply, did you scuff sand the whole sheet of plywood to > break the glaze as recommended by Bingelis? > > chris > > in minneapolis, not sacremento > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built > > > the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on > > > his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came > > > back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on > > > the floor. > > > > > > > > > Dan, > > You're talking about Aerolite? > > > > Kent > > T-88 user > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Is there a data base for listings of Piets in Canada? I have a pic of C-FTJM and I'd like to find out more about it. Larry Ragan Jacksonville, Fl. lragan(at)hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
The Aerolite. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: red betsy
Date: Dec 15, 2003
I was driving by a local movie theatre and saw Red Betsy listed showing. Isnt that the one with the Piet in it? If so has anyone seen it? Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: red betsy
Date: Dec 15, 2003
That's it. But I've only seen the movie trailers on their web site. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: red betsy > > I was driving by a local movie theatre and saw Red Betsy listed showing. Isnt that the one with the Piet in it? > If so has anyone seen it? > Dick > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Subject: Re: Another fuselage width question
From: john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com>
> > > This is exactly what I was proposing. However in searching the > archives I can't find anyone who has done it this way, they all > widen from the firewall back. Has anyone built their fuselage this > way? Rick, I have not yet built my fuselage, but that is my plan also, to keep the fuselage the full 24" width to the back of the pilot's seat. One of the first Pietenpol forums I attended at OSH I asked Vi Kapler about this and he said it should be no problem, especially in my case since I was planning to build the long fuselage. The long fuselage (if I remember this right, but I haven't checked the plans about this for about 2 years) adds about 10 inches to the length of the total fuselage, and 6-8 inches of this is behind the pilot's seat. That shouldn't make the bending much more severe. But if you are worried about making the bends OK, another option is to laminate the whole longeron out of thinner strips, building in the bend. John Fay in Peoria ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 15, 2003
No, Jim These were the Waco Taperwing ribs. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > Chris, > > Well, you certainly join a lot of others that have used Aerolite on the > ribs. > > I'm curious if you made any significant design changes....like to the width > of the fuse or anything else to the original design (I'm assuming you built > the Air Camper or maybe it was a Scout)? > > Just curious. > > Jim in Plano.....bead blasting and powder coating...... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > > > > > > Yes, Kent. I used Aerolite for my ribs and have had no problem. They > were > > built 10 years ago. I used mahoghany ply gussets. > > > > If you guys used birch ply, did you scuff sand the whole sheet of plywood > to > > break the glaze as recommended by Bingelis? > > > > chris > > > > in minneapolis, not sacremento > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com> > > To: > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built > > > > the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on > > > > his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came > > > > back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on > > > > the floor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan, > > > You're talking about Aerolite? > > > > > > Kent > > > T-88 user > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re:
Date: Dec 15, 2003
Re: Canadian Data Base Look up the registration in the "Transport Canada" database @ http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepages/ccarcs/en/default_e.asp?x_lang=e This will give you some information to work with. Ken Gn1 2992 Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com> > > Is there a data base for listings of Piets in Canada? I have a pic of C-FTJM and I'd like to find out more about it. > > > Larry Ragan > Jacksonville, Fl. > lragan(at)hotmail.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Ragan" <lragan(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Date: Dec 16, 2003

Put me right on it. Thanks

________________________________________________________________________________

Larry Ragan Jacksonville, Fl. lragan(at)hotmail.com

From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Fw: CorvAircraft>Corvair College V update
Date: Dec 15, 2003
For those of you not on the corvair list, William Wynne is having a Corvair College in Hanford, California on Jan 17-18. See the links below. The last one has a map that shows where Hanford is. I would go but my boys birthday is that weekend. chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Panzera" <panzera@experimental-aviation.com> Subject: RE: CorvAircraft>Corvair College V update > > > > Although the website isn't fully functioning yet, > > > I've completed the hotel/motel page: > > > http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/WCCCHotel.html > > > > Here's another page I just completed: > > http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/CommercialAir.html > > > > Airline information. > > Another page is completed: > http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/Driving.html > > Driving directions. > > As a reminder, the Corvair College is FREE!!!! > > Pat > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > See CorvAircraft list details at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2003
From: Mike <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: CorvAircraft>Corvair College V update
Hanford isn't far from the great fly-in restaurant at Harris Ranch. Christian Bobka wrote: > > For those of you not on the corvair list, William Wynne is having a Corvair > College in Hanford, California on Jan 17-18. See the links below. The last > one has a map that shows where Hanford is. I would go but my boys birthday > is that weekend. > > chris bobka > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Panzera" <panzera@experimental-aviation.com> > To: "'Corvair engines for homebuilt aircraft'" > Subject: RE: CorvAircraft>Corvair College V update > > > > > > > Although the website isn't fully functioning yet, > > > > I've completed the hotel/motel page: > > > > http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/WCCCHotel.html > > > > > > Here's another page I just completed: > > > http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/CommercialAir.html > > > > > > Airline information. > > > > Another page is completed: > > http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/Driving.html > > > > Driving directions. > > > > As a reminder, the Corvair College is FREE!!!! > > > > Pat > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > See CorvAircraft list details at > http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
Subject: Aerolite glue
From: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Aerolite is an excellent glue (a hundred Falco builders can't be wrong, can they?), but like any other glue it must be used strictly according to directions. Keep the catalyst and its fumes away from the powder-water mixture. It is a good practice to keep the lid on the catalyst (and any brushes soaked with it) until the time that you apply it to the mating surfaces. 1. Apply the glue (powder-water mixture) to the first surface. 2. Then, if you are doing a large surface, apply the catalyst to the mating surface at a table several feet away. 3. Promptly bring the two surfaces together and clamp or fasten them. 4. Don't use Aerolite powder-water mixture after it has begun to thicken over a period of several days (refrigeration will slow this process.) Fumes from an open container or a part with catalyst already on it can begin activating the glue prematurely. If this happens you can get poor joints. Good ventilation is very important to keep this from happening (and to protect your health.) The factories building wooden war planes during the WWII had problems at first with reliable glue joints with Aerolite. It was found that they were not adhering to these precautions. Once that was taken care of they achieved good glue joints. I have wooden wing ribs that were glued together in 1975 with Aerolite and are still strong. The joints on these ribs are under quite a bit of tension as I did not steam the curvature near the leading edge and removed the staples after the glue had cured. Aerolite joints will stay strong under heat that will cause an epoxy or plastic resin joint to fail--heat that can be generated inside an aircraft sitting on a hot tarmac under a summer sun. All that said, I will still continue to use West System epoxy. Dick Hartwig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio?
Group, I have discussed with William Wynne the possibility of holding a Corvair College here in NE Ohio, possibly in conjuction with the annual Taylorcraft (early July) or Aeronca (early August) fly-ins that EAA Chapter 82 hosts each summer in Alliance, Ohio. We have 3 or 4 guys locally who are planning on using Corvairs in Pietenpols & I imagine there are a number of you within a few hours' drive who might be interested as well. He is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of how many people might show up if he committed to coming. Chapter 82 has just completed a beautiful renovation of 14' x 60' mobile home as our new clubhouse and project workshop, which is located at Barber Airport (2D1) in Alliance. Also, for what it's worth, I've just been elected president of the chapter & so have some amount of influence in getting the Chapter behind the idea of hosting a CC there. How about some feedback from some of you guys in the 'middle' part of the country? Canton/Alliance is about a 1-1/2 hour drive west of Pittsburgh, which makes it accessible to a large part of the eastern and midwestern parts of the country. Of course, Alliance is the original home of Taylorcraft, with Barber Airport being just a few minutes drive from the WWII-era factory (it's a landmark for the downwind leg of the pattern for 27). Merry Christmas everyone! Kip Gardner North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio? - PS!
Oh Yeah, Would someone please forward this message to the CorviarCraft list & ask anyone interested to respond directly to me? Thanks! Kip > > >Group, > >I have discussed with William Wynne the possibility of holding a Corvair >College here in NE Ohio, possibly in conjuction with the annual Taylorcraft >(early July) or Aeronca (early August) fly-ins that EAA Chapter 82 hosts >each summer in Alliance, Ohio. We have 3 or 4 guys locally who are planning >on using Corvairs in Pietenpols & I imagine there are a number of you >within a few hours' drive who might be interested as well. > >He is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of how >many people might show up if he committed to coming. > >Chapter 82 has just completed a beautiful renovation of 14' x 60' mobile >home as our new clubhouse and project workshop, which is located at Barber >Airport (2D1) in Alliance. Also, for what it's worth, I've just been >elected president of the chapter & so have some amount of influence in >getting the Chapter behind the idea of hosting a CC there. > >How about some feedback from some of you guys in the 'middle' part of the >country? > >Canton/Alliance is about a 1-1/2 hour drive west of Pittsburgh, which makes >it accessible to a large part of the eastern and midwestern parts of the >country. Of course, Alliance is the original home of Taylorcraft, with >Barber Airport being just a few minutes drive from the WWII-era factory >(it's a landmark for the downwind leg of the pattern for 27). > >Merry Christmas everyone! > >Kip Gardner > >North Canton, OH > > North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio?
Date: Dec 16, 2003
If this should come to pass, count me in. I have just finished striping down my engine and would be about ready to start putting it back together by then. Let me know when the date is firm. Ken GN1 2992 Ontario Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College in Ohio? > > Group, > > I have discussed with William Wynne the possibility of holding a Corvair > College here in NE Ohio, possibly in conjuction with the annual Taylorcraft > (early July) or Aeronca (early August) fly-ins that EAA Chapter 82 hosts > each summer in Alliance, Ohio. We have 3 or 4 guys locally who are planning > on using Corvairs in Pietenpols & I imagine there are a number of you > within a few hours' drive who might be interested as well. > > He is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of how > many people might show up if he committed to coming. > > Chapter 82 has just completed a beautiful renovation of 14' x 60' mobile > home as our new clubhouse and project workshop, which is located at Barber > Airport (2D1) in Alliance. Also, for what it's worth, I've just been > elected president of the chapter & so have some amount of influence in > getting the Chapter behind the idea of hosting a CC there. > > How about some feedback from some of you guys in the 'middle' part of the > country? > > Canton/Alliance is about a 1-1/2 hour drive west of Pittsburgh, which makes > it accessible to a large part of the eastern and midwestern parts of the > country. Of course, Alliance is the original home of Taylorcraft, with > Barber Airport being just a few minutes drive from the WWII-era factory > (it's a landmark for the downwind leg of the pattern for 27). > > Merry Christmas everyone! > > Kip Gardner > > North Canton, OH > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio? - PS!
Date: Dec 16, 2003
Kip, I forwarded to the corvair list. Two replies in the positive already. I have been sending to these guys off line to contact you directly. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College in Ohio? - PS! > > Oh Yeah, > > Would someone please forward this message to the CorviarCraft list & ask > anyone interested to respond directly to me? > > Thanks! > > Kip > > > > > > >Group, > > > >I have discussed with William Wynne the possibility of holding a Corvair > >College here in NE Ohio, possibly in conjuction with the annual Taylorcraft > >(early July) or Aeronca (early August) fly-ins that EAA Chapter 82 hosts > >each summer in Alliance, Ohio. We have 3 or 4 guys locally who are planning > >on using Corvairs in Pietenpols & I imagine there are a number of you > >within a few hours' drive who might be interested as well. > > > >He is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of how > >many people might show up if he committed to coming. > > > >Chapter 82 has just completed a beautiful renovation of 14' x 60' mobile > >home as our new clubhouse and project workshop, which is located at Barber > >Airport (2D1) in Alliance. Also, for what it's worth, I've just been > >elected president of the chapter & so have some amount of influence in > >getting the Chapter behind the idea of hosting a CC there. > > > >How about some feedback from some of you guys in the 'middle' part of the > >country? > > > >Canton/Alliance is about a 1-1/2 hour drive west of Pittsburgh, which makes > >it accessible to a large part of the eastern and midwestern parts of the > >country. Of course, Alliance is the original home of Taylorcraft, with > >Barber Airport being just a few minutes drive from the WWII-era factory > >(it's a landmark for the downwind leg of the pattern for 27). > > > >Merry Christmas everyone! > > > >Kip Gardner > > > >North Canton, OH > > > > > > > North Canton, OH > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Tune in the Wright Replica attempt to fly on WEDS AM !!
see this web site for more info: http://www.wrightexperience.com Hey guys---they flew the flyer again (Hyde's group) a few days ago something like 200 feet. (after the damage in late Nov. was repaired) It looks like they have some nice 17 mph winds forecast for Weds AM when they are going to attempt the recreation of the flight. I guess C-Span is covering things starting at 9:30 am Eastern time. Then something about at 8pm the Discovery Channel or Discovery Wings is going to recap the day's activities Weds. eve. When I went to Chicago to see them try to fly another exacting replica back in Sept. you CANNOT believe how slow the props turn on these Flyers---I mean it's only something like 12-14 horsepower and they turn at something like 900 to 1100 rpm. It's really wild to watch and hear-- you keep waiting for them to 'rev up' the engines to the kind of RPM's you and I are used to. We've come one helluva long way in 100 years. I hear tell the big problem was CG with that thing too---after the boys came back to Dayton they moved the engine forward a foot or two and solved the AFT CG problem ! Must have been unstable as heck in it's original configuration. I wish em' well tomorrow. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lynn & Doris Knoll" <dknoll(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio?
Date: Dec 16, 2003
Count me in. I've been hoping for a CC less than a 3 day drive from Wichita. Hope it materializes. Lynn Knoll Piet/Vair in the works ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College in Ohio? > > Group, > > I have discussed with William Wynne the possibility of holding a Corvair > College here in NE Ohio, possibly in conjuction with the annual Taylorcraft > (early July) or Aeronca (early August) fly-ins that EAA Chapter 82 hosts > each summer in Alliance, Ohio. We have 3 or 4 guys locally who are planning > on using Corvairs in Pietenpols & I imagine there are a number of you > within a few hours' drive who might be interested as well. > > He is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of how > many people might show up if he committed to coming. > > Chapter 82 has just completed a beautiful renovation of 14' x 60' mobile > home as our new clubhouse and project workshop, which is located at Barber > Airport (2D1) in Alliance. Also, for what it's worth, I've just been > elected president of the chapter & so have some amount of influence in > getting the Chapter behind the idea of hosting a CC there. > > How about some feedback from some of you guys in the 'middle' part of the > country? > > Canton/Alliance is about a 1-1/2 hour drive west of Pittsburgh, which makes > it accessible to a large part of the eastern and midwestern parts of the > country. Of course, Alliance is the original home of Taylorcraft, with > Barber Airport being just a few minutes drive from the WWII-era factory > (it's a landmark for the downwind leg of the pattern for 27). > > Merry Christmas everyone! > > Kip Gardner > > North Canton, OH > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: Michael Fisher <mfisher(at)gci.net>
Subject: New Shop, Exhaust Fume Extraction
Run internal combustion engines in your shop? This is a popular, if somewhat risky, practice. It is much safer when there is a proper method for fume extraction. Go to respected shops in your area to see how they do it. Get a five dollar, dark spot CO indicator and tack it on the wall to make sure the system is working. Now is the time to tee into the chimney or cut holes in the wall. Some shops are dark caves where the air gets better when someone lights a cigarette. Try to avoid that. Best holiday wishes, Mike Fisher ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> on WEDS AM !!
Subject: Re: Tune in the Wright Replica attempt to fly
on WEDS AM !! on WEDS AM !! Mike in Pretty Prairie, I don't think they have any cameras on the flyer but I wouldn't be surprised since they are carrying a flight data recorder. They've already gotten data from it from the 3 flights that we know of.......let alone the ones we haven't heard about. The wind is looking lousy today for them but picking up tomorrow for the 10:35 am attempt. They are supposed to fly again at about 2 pm if the first try doesn't crack it up. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: B-29 program
Date: Dec 16, 2003
might be everywhere. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: good pics of Steve E's Utah Piet here !
http://www.usuwrightflyer.org/ Checkout Utah Tour Photo Album #1 to see the great pics of Steve's Piet during the same day they were flying the USU replica.......neat Steve !!!! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: good pics of Steve E's Utah Piet here !
Date: Dec 16, 2003
WAY COOL!!!!! This is TOO neat..... Jim in Plano.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: good pics of Steve E's Utah Piet here ! > > http://www.usuwrightflyer.org/ > > Checkout Utah Tour Photo Album #1 to see the great pics of Steve's Piet > during the same day they were flying the USU replica.......neat Steve !!!! > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: good pics of Steve E's Utah Piet here !
Date: Dec 16, 2003
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu>
Thanks for the pointer Mike! I didn't know about it.... That was a great day flying. I begged to swap rides that day, but just got a good long time in the flyers 'cockpit' I did give the USU crew rides and they loved it. The pilot of the flyer was my tailwheel instructor who helped transition me from trikes in preparation for the Piet. Most of the guys involved with the USU flyer project love the piet and over the years followed my construction and flying. Great folks having a great time sharing their passion for flying. You should hear what a high-reving Harley going low and slow sounds like! Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: good pics of Steve E's Utah Piet here ! http://www.usuwrightflyer.org/ Checkout Utah Tour Photo Album #1 to see the great pics of Steve's Piet during the same day they were flying the USU replica.......neat Steve !!!! Mike C. = == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project
Date: Dec 16, 2003
I give Aerolite positive marks also. Especially for small parts like ribs. My Piet ribs were built 7 years ago with no problems. Paint the resin on the capstrips and hardener on the gussets. Put the gusset in place and after a couple of seconds you can feel the gusset beginning to set. It holds perfectly while the nails are pounded in. I tried T 88 on a couple of ribs and didn't like it. The T 88 acted like a lubricant making the gussets hard to keep in place while nailing. All testing on Aerolite samples broke the wood, not the glue. Also, I used birch plywood and didn't bother to scuff the surface. Did some sample glue-ups on both scuffed and un-scuffed ply. The wood broke on all samples, no problem with the glue joints. Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > Yes, Kent. I used Aerolite for my ribs and have had no problem. They were > built 10 years ago. I used mahoghany ply gussets. > > If you guys used birch ply, did you scuff sand the whole sheet of plywood to > break the glaze as recommended by Bingelis? > > chris > > in minneapolis, not sacremento > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com> > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol as a School Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris,yep,thats the way it`s done.Friend of mine built > > > the sides for a Woodhopper that way,then hung them on > > > his basement wall and went south for the winter.Came > > > back in the spring and found all the pieces laying on > > > the floor. > > > > > > > > > Dan, > > You're talking about Aerolite? > > > > Kent > > T-88 user > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio?
Date: Dec 17, 2003
It's about time there was a Corvair College somewhere in the Midwest! Although I did have my wife convinced that I would have to go to Florida for this. :) Kip, I am very interested and give 50/50 odds of attending, the only thing holding me up is finding an appropriate core and scheduling the time away from my wife and my two boys. Please put me on your list. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: Corvair College in Ohio?
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Kip, I am interested, and definitely might show up. Skip, in Atlanta now but hope to be in West Virginia next summer. > William is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of how many people >might show up if he committed to coming. >Merry Christmas everyone! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: nice day to fly
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Knowing that today was the big 100th aniversary day and that the weather was beautiful at 7:00am, I called my FBO early to get on the board for this morning. My concern was that all the other airplane nuts in the area would snatch up all the rentals. Apartently, this was not the case. I had my choice. On the other side of the airport is five or six rows of T-hangers and only one Quickie was getting ready. I couldn't quite understand, I guess there are less airplane nuts than I thought. So at about 9:00CST I went flying. Gorgeous clear cold morning and just about had the pattern to myself. The Quickie behind me on a call to tower thanked Orvile and Wilbur for the privelage, the tower responded that he would pass along the message. One trip over to my hometown airport for a T&G, two if you count the missed approach (I've got to practice landing in strong crosswinds). Back up, some easy flying, and then back into the pattern at Carbondale. I landed about 9:40 (or 10:40EST) roughly about the same time they did, only 100 years later. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: hickpiper(at)misn.com
Subject: Corvair questions
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Greetings all, I am going to pick up some Corvair engines this weekend, (my Christmas present!) and after checking the #s I found that one is a pre '65, and I don't recall the exact hp, but it is less than 110 hp. Will this have any parts usable on the 110? I'm sure something on this subject is archived , but so far all I could find was the difference in cranks (pre 65's are weaker?) and bore size. I am also wondering if I need to get some sort of bell housing...seems like I remember reading something about needing one for something, but I don't recall the specifics. I do plan on getting William's conversion manual, but I stumbled onto these engines and want to nab 'em before they're gone! Thanks in advance... Jon Jones in southeast Missouri...still trying to save up for plans & spruce without upsetting the wife too much. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair questions
Date: Dec 17, 2003
What do you mean when you say "some Corvair engines"? Like there might be more than one???? Hey, if you mean there may be more than one usable setup, let me know. I might want to drive up to SE Missouri with a bunch of spare spruce and Pietenpol metal fittings I have sitting here and trade it for some usable corvair stuff...(?) Just a thought. Jim in Plano.......always anxious to help someone (well, ME in particular) avoid upsetting the wife too much....... ----- Original Message ----- From: <hickpiper(at)misn.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair questions > > Greetings all, > I am going to pick up some Corvair engines this weekend, (my Christmas present!) and after checking the #s I found that one is a pre '65, and I don't recall the exact hp, but it is less than 110 hp. Will this have any parts usable on the 110? I'm sure something on this subject is archived , but so far all I could find was the difference in cranks (pre 65's are weaker?) and bore size. I am also wondering if I need to get some sort of bell housing...seems like I remember reading something about needing one for something, but I don't recall the specifics. I do plan on getting William's conversion manual, but I stumbled onto these engines and want to nab 'em before they're gone! Thanks in advance... > > Jon Jones in southeast Missouri...still trying to save up for plans & spruce without upsetting the wife too much. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Good Fuselage??
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Eric, First the disclaimer: I'm not a structural engineer, and I haven't run the numbers for the Piet fuselage. I do understand a lot of the physics involved. I built my Piet fuselage 1 inch spruce longerons. You're calculations are correct, at least for tensile strength. Stiffness depends on dimension squared, and goes down even faster. There's a MIL-SPEC on spruce--I don't have the number handy, but someone on the list probably does. It lists substitution recommendations for other woods, including Douglas fir. On the other hand, there seems to be a general consensus that the Piet is overbuilt. You could check into the construction used for other wood planes to get a feeling for what is done. The only data point I (think) I remember is that I've seen an Ospery I amphibian that appeared to be built of 3/4 inch fir. Doublers seem like an interesting idea. If I were going to do it that way, I'd think about 8 long strips on the outsides of the corners, over the gussets, with filler blocks between the gussets. 1/8 inch Douglas fir over 1/8 inch filler would probably bring your strength back to nominal. Stiffness would (probably) be better than using 1" spruce. I'd worry a bit about using a spruce doubler over Douglas Fir because of a difference in stiffness (Young's modulus to be specific). Let us know how you decide to go. Gene Hubbard San Diego -----Original Message----- From: Eric Williams [mailto:ewilliams805(at)msn.com] Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage?? Hi everyone. This is my first posting to this list (although Ive been lurking for a while) and I have a situation that I would really appreciate any comments or suggestions on. While at Oshkosh this year, a very good friend of mine, who has too many airplanes in various stages of repair, offered to give me a Piet project that he had acquired several years ago from a friend of his (the builder). I picked up the project this past weekend and it consists of a completed fuselage structure with the plywood skin on the forward half and the floor, a complete set of wing ribs, and a complete set of tail surfaces. The workmanship on the project looks to be acceptable however, one thing that bothered me was the longerons and the other fuselage members appeared to be small in cross-section. The builder happened to stop by while we were loading it all onto my trailer. He said that he had used douglas fir and since his research proved to him that fir was 25% stronger than spruce, he had reduced the dimensions of the members by 25% (from 1" to 3/4"). The problem with this line of thinking, as I see it, is that when you multiply 3/4" by 3/4" you end up with 0.56 square inches as the cross-sectional area of the wood that was used, as compared to 1.00 square inch in a 1" x 1" member. That means the longerons in my fuselage actually contain 44% less material than had they been built using 1x1 stock. I would sincerely appreciate any thoughts you all might have as to the usability of this fuselage. I should say that it "feels" strong and I did sit in it while it was supported at the approximate landing gear points and there appeared to be no deflection or creaking at all (there were a few engine noises made however). I also wonder if I might be able to epoxy some 1/4" strips to the various members for added strength? The builder said he had used West System epoxy to construct it. Thanks for your input. Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair College in Ohio?
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Hey Skip How's the count down to retirement coming along? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College in Ohio? > > Kip, > I am interested, and definitely might show up. > Skip, in Atlanta now but hope to be in West Virginia next summer. > > > > William is interested in the idea, & I would like to a have some sense of > how many people >might show up if he committed to coming. > > >Merry Christmas everyone! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard(at)titan.com>
Subject: Bad Fuselage
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Sorry guys--I'm trying to get rid of it... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2003
Subject: [ Claude Corbett ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Claude Corbett Subject: Pietenpol NX41CC completed 9/28/02 by Claude Corbett http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Isablcorky@aol.com.12.17.2003/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair questions
Date: Dec 18, 2003
First, the disclaimer (sorry Gene; I just had to do that ;o)- Jon wrote: >after checking the #s I found that one is a pre '65, and >I don't recall the exact hp, but it is less than 110 hp. It is a nominal 95 HP. Still plenty good for the Pietenpol, but if you're going to go to the effort of converting a Corvair, it's the same cost and labor to convert the 110 HP as it is the 95 HP (some might say it's even more, since parts for the 95 HP are less common). >Will this have any parts usable on the 110? Yes, very many. If the engine is complete, by all means pick it up! >so far all I could find was the difference in cranks (pre 65's are weaker?) The crank on the 110 HP has a longer stroke to increase the displacement, and the inside of the crankcase is relieved in order to clear the crank throws and rods. That's the main drawback to trying to convert a 95 HP... you have to do all the interior relieving yourself (assuming you're using an 8409 crank from a 110 HP in your conversion). Not a deal-breaker by any means, but it depends on your comfort level doing engine work. >and bore size. Right. Different cylinders. >I am also wondering if I need to get some sort of bell housing Yes, the bell housing is what is used to make the front cover for the engine. The 'bell' part is cut off to leave simply the front cover. There are excellent photos of all of this on D.J. Vegh's and Pat Panzera's websites, so if you need more guidance don't feel like you're out there on your own. >I do plan on getting William's conversion manual Don't just plan on it... do it! The conversion manual will answer all your questions and more. But for now, don't pass up this 95 HP engine if it's complete and if it can be turned by putting a socket on it and turning it over (or if it was running when removed from the car). Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Wrights TV shows
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Spent most of last evening flipping back and forth between the History Channel and the Discovery Channel. One thing that got me was the story about Beuford over in Indiana who already built his 1903 replica but couldn't fly it without a license. He couldn't get a license without a medical. But his friends convinced him to try and fly it anyway, which he did. That's the part of the story that I think pertains to this list. (Corky?, wink wink nudge nudge) Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov>
Subject: Corvair College in Ohio?
Date: Dec 18, 2003
166 total days >Hey Skip >How's the count down to retirement coming along? >Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Free copy of "To Fly"....
Date: Dec 18, 2003
I just got my membership package from the Sport Aviation Association (if you haven't joined...do it now!!!) and it included the Winter 2003 issue of To Fly..... Well, I got a copy several weeks ago so now I have 2....... So who wants it? It's still in the envelope (I've removed the membership card, etc) and all I need to do is re-address it and say "not at this address" and have the post office deliver it again for free!!!!...hehehehe...just kidding....I can use the same envelope though...... If you aren't familiar with the SAA and/or To Fly....well, you're in for a treat! Alan Wise told me 2 years ago at Brodhead to join the SAA and like a dummy I waited.....I shouldn't have..... I'll be glad to send it to the first (NON SAA member) response with an address........... Jim in Plano....... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com>
Subject: Free copy of "To Fly"....
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Hello, I'd like it if it's still available. Thanks, Bruce >From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Free copy of "To Fly".... >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:19:47 -0600 > > > > >I just got my membership package from the Sport Aviation Association (if >you >haven't joined...do it now!!!) and it included the Winter 2003 issue of To >Fly..... > >Well, I got a copy several weeks ago so now I have 2....... > >So who wants it? > >It's still in the envelope (I've removed the membership card, etc) and all >I >need to do is re-address it and say "not at this address" and have the post >office deliver it again for free!!!!...hehehehe...just kidding....I can use >the same envelope though...... > >If you aren't familiar with the SAA and/or To Fly....well, you're in for a >treat! Alan Wise told me 2 years ago at Brodhead to join the SAA and like >a >dummy I waited.....I shouldn't have..... > >I'll be glad to send it to the first (NON SAA member) response with an >address........... > >Jim in Plano....... > > Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Free copy of "To Fly"....it got snapped up pretty quickly
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Wow, I should have SOLD it!!!! :-) Quite a few responded and it's in the mail already..... Jim in Plano > >From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> > >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > >To: > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Free copy of "To Fly".... > >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:19:47 -0600 > > > > > > > > > >I just got my membership package from the Sport Aviation Association (if > >you > >haven't joined...do it now!!!) and it included the Winter 2003 issue of To > >Fly..... > > > >Well, I got a copy several weeks ago so now I have 2....... > > > >So who wants it? > > > >It's still in the envelope (I've removed the membership card, etc) and all > >I > >need to do is re-address it and say "not at this address" and have the post > >office deliver it again for free!!!!...hehehehe...just kidding....I can use > >the same envelope though...... > > > >If you aren't familiar with the SAA and/or To Fly....well, you're in for a > >treat! Alan Wise told me 2 years ago at Brodhead to join the SAA and like > >a > >dummy I waited.....I shouldn't have..... > > > >I'll be glad to send it to the first (NON SAA member) response with an > >address........... > > > >Jim in Plano....... > > > > > > Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed > providers now. https://broadband.msn.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
"Email List Photo Shares"
Subject: Re: [ Claude Corbett ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Corky, Great pics!! Plane looks great! Ain't life grand! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Email List Photo Shares" <pictures(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: [ Claude Corbett ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! > > > A new Email List Photo Share is available: > > Poster: Claude Corbett > > > Subject: Pietenpol NX41CC completed 9/28/02 by Claude Corbett > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Isablcorky@aol.com.12.17.2003/index.html > > > o Main Photo Share Index > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > o Submitting a Photo Share > > If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the > following information along with your email message and files: > > 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: > 2) Your Full Name: > 3) Your Email Address: > 4) One line Subject description: > 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: > 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: > > Email the information above and your files and photos to: > > pictures(at)matronics.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu>
Subject: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I am out of college. Any suggestions? Will ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
For the plywood, you might try a hobby shop. Many of them carry aircraft grade thin plywood for building model airplanes. As for the douglas fir, you can get it at home depot. Ask for it, and be prepared to be very selective in choosing you pieces. If using Douglas Fir, I would make the capstrips smaller than the plans call for. Most planes using spruce only make the ribs 1/4" thick - The Piet is the only small plane I know of with 1/2" wide capstrips. DOuglas Fir is substantially heavier than spruce, and also stronger, but the extra strength is of no advantage if you make the pieces the same size. Good Luck, Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Rives Young Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I am out of college. Any suggestions? Will ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
WOAH!! Don't go to Home Depot or Lowe's for your wood unless you know exactly what you are looking for and can insure it's what you want without help from them. I tried to get some Doug Fir at Home Quarters (or one of those places anyway) and the guy in the lumber section told me they didn't sell fir there, that I would have to go to a sewing place to get it!!! I asked to speak to the lumber manager and found out he was! These guys DON'T KNOW SQUAT about wood. Your best bet is to talk to some of the local boat or furniture builders and find out where there is a REAL lumber yard. As for 1/16 ply you will probably be best off to get that at the same place. There are places you can mail order but the shipping is pretty steep. Read up on the grain requirements for the wood you will need on the internet and you might want to get some cheap stuff and build a couple of ribs from it to start. Might as well learn to rip the strips and make good glue joints on some cheap pine while you are looking for the good wood. Where are you located? Maybe somebody is close enough to point you to a good source of raw material. Are you anywhere in the South East VA area? Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > Will > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair questions & OH Corvair College
> >First, the disclaimer (sorry Gene; I just had to do that ;o)- Jon wrote: >It is a nominal 95 HP. Still plenty good for the Pietenpol, but if you're >going to go to the effort of converting a Corvair, it's the same cost and >labor to convert the 110 HP as it is the 95 HP (some might say it's even >more, since parts for the 95 HP are less common). >>I do plan on getting William's conversion manual > >Don't just plan on it... do it! The conversion manual will answer all your >questions and more. But for now, don't pass up this 95 HP engine if it's >complete and if it can be turned by putting a socket on it and turning it >over (or if it was running when removed from the car). > >Oscar Zuniga Group, As an historical aside, I believe that the 95 hp was what Bernie put on his first Covair-powered Piet, the one that's at Oshkosh. He put a 110 hp on the second one - "The Last Original", the one that Andrew P. owned until last year when he sold it to the group at Brodhead. By ALL means get WW's manual, it's really the only way to go at this point, although there are still many Piets flying on some variant of Bernie's original conversion plans. In the past 2 days I've had a very good response to the idea of a Corvair College in OH, both from this list and the CorvairCraft folks (about 14 positives or 'definite maybes'), so I'll get back in touch with William about it. Right now, based on responses, I'm inclined to ask him if he can come during the Aeronca Fly-In, which in the past three years has been on the weekend FOLLOWING the last weekend of Oshkosh (August 8,9,10 thios year). This would make it possible for William to stop here on his way home from Oshkosh. the TaylorCraft Fly-in always falls very close to July 4th, & I got the impression form a few people that this would be a problem. I'll let everyone know how it all shapes up. Merry Christmas everyone! Kip Gardner North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lauritz Larsen" <pietlars(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Re; Douglas Fir I have found that Home Depot and Lowe's do carry a limited stock of 'clear' fir trim stock; it usually 1" stuff though and fairly high priced. Try a lumber yard that caters to contractors and ask to see their clear fir. I found a good selection at a couple of yards. 84 Lumber has it in this area. When you find some fir , pick out the clear, straight grained pieces and then "heft" them. There is a wide variation in the densities of fir stock. Using this method I have found some fir pieces that are only about 10% heavier than the nominal spruce density. I prefer to buy 2" sticks, gives more flexibility in utilizing to best advantage. I have built my piet using all fir for structural members and some red cedar and white pine for the rest . Putting the last color coat on the fuselage and when thats done, I'm done painting!! Lou Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > For the plywood, you might try a hobby shop. Many of them carry aircraft > grade thin plywood for building model airplanes. As for the douglas fir, > you can get it at home depot. Ask for it, and be prepared to be very > selective in choosing you pieces. If using Douglas Fir, I would make the > capstrips smaller than the plans call for. Most planes using spruce only > make the ribs 1/4" thick - The Piet is the only small plane I know of with > 1/2" wide capstrips. DOuglas Fir is substantially heavier than spruce, and > also stronger, but the extra strength is of no advantage if you make the > pieces the same size. > > Good Luck, > > Jack Phillips > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William > Rives Young > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 4:26 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time > school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make > gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood > that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps > strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. > The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is > because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I > am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > Will > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
For 1/16" plywood for gussets you might try a place that sells plywood for doors. Here in Dallas there is a place called Plywood Door that sells just what you need. Since it isn't labeled "Airplane" the price is reasonable too. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
It would be very helpful to know where you are located. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > Will > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
> > >It would be very helpful to know where you are located. >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > >> >> I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time >school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make >gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood >that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps >strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. >The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is >because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I >am out of college. Any suggestions? >> >> >> Will Will, Ribs are a good college project. I used to build R/C sailplanes in my college room - about the same scale operation. Access to a 'real' workshop for making your jig, ripping boards, etc. would be nice, however. Do that stuff when you are home on break. Both ACS & Wicks sell 1/16" plywood, but it is expensive, I think the smallest piece they'll sell is 2'x2' & you pay alot for shipping. Hobby Shops usually sell aircraft grade ply - mostly birch ply, in my experience. The advantage is that someone on a budget can buy a little at a time, the R/C guys use a lot less for one of their birds than we do for ours. Locally, our shops sell pieces that are about 9x18". The price is reasonable. I don't know about other places, but when I tried to get good ply from REAL lumber yards (the best ones locally), all they carried was what they called 'Baltic' or 'Furniture' grade - interior use only, the glue is not waterproof. Any place that caters to boat builders is a good choice. Marine-grade is almost, if not as good as aircraft grade, especially the stuff used for 'molded' boat construction using WEST System epoxy. To meet the specs for that application, the wood has to pass tests similar to aircraft grade (waterproof glue, immersion &'boil' tests, no between-ply gaps, etc.). Good luck, like Corky said, don't let it get in the way of school. I told my nephew many, many times not to cut classes, be he kept saying "it's all in the books, I'll just study them, I'm too busy working". It's taken him an extra 2 years to graduate & he pissed away an academic scholarship by letting his grades slip. Now he's finding out that the engineers being hired are the ones who kept their GPA's up. Cheers, Kip Gardner North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Tom, Is the door skin waterproof? Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: <TomTravis(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > For 1/16" plywood for gussets you might try a place that sells plywood for > doors. Here in Dallas there is a place called Plywood Door that sells just what > you need. Since it isn't labeled "Airplane" the price is reasonable too. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
Hank, That is as funny as it comes. I remember looking to "cut my own" capstrips but when you look at how LITTLE it costs for the stuff, you can't do it for less. Even a Stearman uses capstrips smaller than the Piet at 3/8 x 3/8 and the Stearman is a real clunker i.e. heavy and way overbuilt. So you use 3/8 x 3/8 in the piet and that is .27 a foot at wicks. Figure three 5 foot sticks per rib and you are at 5 bucks per rib, You can't do better than that at Home Depot. You need a planer to plane down the 3/4 to a 1/2, etc. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > WOAH!! Don't go to Home Depot or Lowe's for your wood unless you know > exactly what you are looking for and can insure it's what you want without > help from them. I tried to get some Doug Fir at Home Quarters (or one of > those places anyway) and the guy in the lumber section told me they didn't > sell fir there, that I would have to go to a sewing place to get it!!! I > asked to speak to the lumber manager and found out he was! These guys DON'T > KNOW SQUAT about wood. Your best bet is to talk to some of the local boat > or furniture builders and find out where there is a REAL lumber yard. As > for 1/16 ply you will probably be best off to get that at the same place. > There are places you can mail order but the shipping is pretty steep. Read > up on the grain requirements for the wood you will need on the internet and > you might want to get some cheap stuff and build a couple of ribs from it to > start. Might as well learn to rip the strips and make good glue joints on > some cheap pine while you are looking for the good wood. > Where are you located? Maybe somebody is close enough to point you to a > good source of raw material. Are you anywhere in the South East VA area? > Hank J > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time > school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make > gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood > that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps > strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. > The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is > because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I > am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > > > > Will > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 18, 2003
I'm not saying don't buy your material at a home improvement place, I'm saying don't trust the employees to give you the right stuff. If you are going to buy wood there you need to know enough about how to inspect and grade it to choose what you need. You also can't count on the labels on the bins. It's all just wood to the kid working after school. Know what you need, know what it looks, smells and even tastes like, and know what the grain is supposed to be. The Piet is way overbuilt (in most places) but that is why so few people kill themselves in them. I don't remember anything ever failing that was put together like it was designed if the pilot didn't do something dumb (not many planes survive encounters with "Cumulo Granitus"). I'll stand by my statement "Don't go to Home Depot or Lowe's for your wood unless you know exactly what you are looking for and can insure it's what you want without help from them." Hank J Should have heard his answer to "Got any Ash?" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > Hank, > > That is as funny as it comes. > > I remember looking to "cut my own" capstrips but when you look at how LITTLE > it costs for the stuff, you can't do it for less. > > Even a Stearman uses capstrips smaller than the Piet at 3/8 x 3/8 and the > Stearman is a real clunker i.e. heavy and way overbuilt. > > So you use 3/8 x 3/8 in the piet and that is .27 a foot at wicks. Figure > three 5 foot sticks per rib and you are at 5 bucks per rib, You can't do > better than that at Home Depot. > > You need a planer to plane down the 3/4 to a 1/2, etc. > > Chris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > WOAH!! Don't go to Home Depot or Lowe's for your wood unless you know > > exactly what you are looking for and can insure it's what you want without > > help from them. I tried to get some Doug Fir at Home Quarters (or one of > > those places anyway) and the guy in the lumber section told me they didn't > > sell fir there, that I would have to go to a sewing place to get it!!! I > > asked to speak to the lumber manager and found out he was! These guys > DON'T > > KNOW SQUAT about wood. Your best bet is to talk to some of the local boat > > or furniture builders and find out where there is a REAL lumber yard. As > > for 1/16 ply you will probably be best off to get that at the same place. > > There are places you can mail order but the shipping is pretty steep. > Read > > up on the grain requirements for the wood you will need on the internet > and > > you might want to get some cheap stuff and build a couple of ribs from it > to > > start. Might as well learn to rip the strips and make good glue joints on > > some cheap pine while you are looking for the good wood. > > Where are you located? Maybe somebody is close enough to point you to a > > good source of raw material. Are you anywhere in the South East VA area? > > Hank J > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> > > To: > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > > > > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last > time > > school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to > make > > gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells > plywood > > that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps > > strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. > > The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is > > because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until > I > > am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > Will > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2003
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Hi Will another good wood for the cap strips is western cedar. they make house siding out of this. so you might be able to find this at home depot. I havn't personally looked for it. but a guy by the name of charles makes ribs for other people, a lot of them flying. and thats what he uses. try a local wood supplier that sells to cabinet shops for the 1/16 plywood. or call aircraft spruce or wicks and see if they have a bunch of scraps that will work for the rib gussets. Del William Rives Young wrote: I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I am out of college. Any suggestions? Will Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 19, 2003
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:01:37 PM Central Standard Time, bobka(at)compuserve.com writes: > > Tom, > > Is the door skin waterproof? > > Chris Bobka > Hi Chris, The specs all looked right so I got some and did a water soak test and there was no delamination. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 19, 2003
The plywood Tom and I have used from this source is "marine type to British Standards 1088"..... I'm pretty sure that makes it about as close to waterproof as you can get.... Good stuff..... Jim in Plano....wishing I was done with beadblasting and powdercoating and could get back to using the aforementioned (dang, I love those big words!) materials....... ----- Original Message ----- From: <TomTravis(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:01:37 PM Central Standard Time, > bobka(at)compuserve.com writes: > > > > > Tom, > > > > Is the door skin waterproof? > > > > Chris Bobka > > > > Hi Chris, > > The specs all looked right so I got some and did a water soak test and there > was no delamination. > > > Tom > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 19, 2003
I get my 1/16 ply at www.balsausa.com they have excellent quality 1/16 ply and a VERY good price. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper ----- Original Message ----- From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > WOAH!! Don't go to Home Depot or Lowe's for your wood unless you know > exactly what you are looking for and can insure it's what you want without > help from them. I tried to get some Doug Fir at Home Quarters (or one of > those places anyway) and the guy in the lumber section told me they didn't > sell fir there, that I would have to go to a sewing place to get it!!! I > asked to speak to the lumber manager and found out he was! These guys DON'T > KNOW SQUAT about wood. Your best bet is to talk to some of the local boat > or furniture builders and find out where there is a REAL lumber yard. As > for 1/16 ply you will probably be best off to get that at the same place. > There are places you can mail order but the shipping is pretty steep. Read > up on the grain requirements for the wood you will need on the internet and > you might want to get some cheap stuff and build a couple of ribs from it to > start. Might as well learn to rip the strips and make good glue joints on > some cheap pine while you are looking for the good wood. > Where are you located? Maybe somebody is close enough to point you to a > good source of raw material. Are you anywhere in the South East VA area? > Hank J > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time > school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make > gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood > that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps > strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. > The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is > because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I > am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > > > > Will > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: BS 1088
Date: Dec 19, 2003
Jim, That is good stuff. It is what I used on the Waco Taperwing ribs. I even think it is better than the U. S. made MIL-W-6070 plywood. The BS1088 is mahoghany throughout while the 6070 is poplar core. I had purchased mine at Aircraft Spruce about 9 years ago. They no longer carry it. Where did you guys get it again? Do you have an address in phone number? I might have to do a long Dallas layover and buy some and ship it back to MN. Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > The plywood Tom and I have used from this source is "marine type to British > Standards 1088"..... > > I'm pretty sure that makes it about as close to waterproof as you can > get.... Good stuff..... > > Jim in Plano....wishing I was done with beadblasting and powdercoating and > could get back to using the aforementioned (dang, I love those big words!) > materials....... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <TomTravis(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:01:37 PM Central Standard Time, > > bobka(at)compuserve.com writes: > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > Is the door skin waterproof? > > > > > > Chris Bobka > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > The specs all looked right so I got some and did a water soak test and > there > > was no delamination. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: dan john <ballmell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
I would suggest you join the closest EAA chapter and ask the members about local sources for good wood.Most chapters would love to help. John P. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Wright Flight- off topic
Thank you, Oscar. I took an old junk bike from the garage and went to Home Depot (just like the fisherman would be proud of) and built a look-alike of the bike they ride around at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome Museum. There is some black and white footage some of you may have seen from the lat 1800's, or early 1900's that shows a guy with some kind of Roman-candle/rocket-powered bike with wings trying to fly. He actually did get airborne in the footage but as soon as the front wheel left the ground he lost his steering control and ended up in a heap. I'll post more pics on the matronics site (if they allow them) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: BS 1088
Date: Dec 19, 2003
Plywood & Door http://www.pdusa.com/contact.htm They're located in Chicago, Dallas, LA and New York. For comparison, I bought a 4X8 sheet of plywood (around 5/16" or 3/8" thick) for about $50. Wicks/AS&S was well over $200 (plus shipping) for the same size. But I wasn't able to just walk in and buy. I had to go through a lumber yard (the one where I buy my Douglas Fir). You can probably talk them into selling directly to you. When Tom bought directly from them, he apparently applied a higher level of schmoozing (some may need to look that up in "Yiddish for Dummies") than I....... :-) jm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: BS 1088 > > Jim, > > That is good stuff. It is what I used on the Waco Taperwing ribs. I even > think it is better than the U. S. made MIL-W-6070 plywood. The BS1088 is > mahoghany throughout while the 6070 is poplar core. > > I had purchased mine at Aircraft Spruce about 9 years ago. They no longer > carry it. > > Where did you guys get it again? Do you have an address in phone number? I > might have to do a long Dallas layover and buy some and ship it back to MN. > > Chris Bobka > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > The plywood Tom and I have used from this source is "marine type to > British > > Standards 1088"..... > > > > I'm pretty sure that makes it about as close to waterproof as you can > > get.... Good stuff..... > > > > Jim in Plano....wishing I was done with beadblasting and powdercoating and > > could get back to using the aforementioned (dang, I love those big words!) > > materials....... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <TomTravis(at)aol.com> > > To: > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:01:37 PM Central Standard Time, > > > bobka(at)compuserve.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > > Is the door skin waterproof? > > > > > > > > Chris Bobka > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > The specs all looked right so I got some and did a water soak test and > > there > > > was no delamination. > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: "catdesign(at)intergate.com" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
BalsaUSA is where I bought my rib plywood as well. They sell very good quality birch plywood and Liteply (which I think is poplar plywood but I am not sure about that). I guess us model builder all think alike. Spruce came from Wicks pre cut to 1/4" x 1/2", ordered 93 pieces at 6 feet long was only about $100 plus shipping. A USED textbook will cost that much......I say don't wast your time trying to mill it yourself unless you happen to get the wood for next to nothing and you have the tools handy. Chris T. Sacramento, Ca Quoting DJ Vegh : > > I get my 1/16 ply at www.balsausa.com they have excellent quality 1/16 ply > and a VERY good price. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > - > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett(at)hroads.net> > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > WOAH!! Don't go to Home Depot or Lowe's for your wood unless you know > > exactly what you are looking for and can insure it's what you want without > > help from them. I tried to get some Doug Fir at Home Quarters (or one of > > those places anyway) and the guy in the lumber section told me they didn't > > sell fir there, that I would have to go to a sewing place to get it!!! I > > asked to speak to the lumber manager and found out he was! These guys > DON'T > > KNOW SQUAT about wood. Your best bet is to talk to some of the local boat > > or furniture builders and find out where there is a REAL lumber yard. As > > for 1/16 ply you will probably be best off to get that at the same place. > > There are places you can mail order but the shipping is pretty steep. > Read > > up on the grain requirements for the wood you will need on the internet > and > > you might want to get some cheap stuff and build a couple of ribs from it > to > > start. Might as well learn to rip the strips and make good glue joints on > > some cheap pine while you are looking for the good wood. > > Where are you located? Maybe somebody is close enough to point you to a > > good source of raw material. Are you anywhere in the South East VA area? > > Hank J > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William Rives Young" <wry22(at)drexel.edu> > > To: > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > > > > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last > time > > school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to > make > > gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells > plywood > > that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps > > strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. > > The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is > > because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until > I > > am out of college. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > Will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: wry22(at)drexel.edu
Subject: re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Thanks to all that replied. Never even thought about a r/c hobby shop for the plywood. Looks like I got my winter vacation planned looking for wood and fixing our planer. Will in North Eastern PA PS. Corky, no fears about the GPA I am still trying to get the Army to let me fly helicopters for them after I graduate. I know where my priorities are, now it is just a matter of execution. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesJboyer(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 19, 2003
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Hi Chris, good point on the price of the wood from wicks. If its that cheap then save the time milling it yourself. I did have fun doing it though. How are you coming now on your Piet? Cheers, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: BS 1088
Chris, I purchased it for a kayak at Noah's Marine in Toronto, Ont. Not a good choice from Texas but good for the NY types. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 At 10:15 AM 12/19/2003, you wrote: > >Jim, > >That is good stuff. It is what I used on the Waco Taperwing ribs. I even >think it is better than the U. S. made MIL-W-6070 plywood. The BS1088 is >mahoghany throughout while the 6070 is poplar core. > >I had purchased mine at Aircraft Spruce about 9 years ago. They no longer >carry it. > >Where did you guys get it again? Do you have an address in phone number? I >might have to do a long Dallas layover and buy some and ship it back to MN. > >Chris Bobka > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > The plywood Tom and I have used from this source is "marine type to >British > > Standards 1088"..... > > > > I'm pretty sure that makes it about as close to waterproof as you can > > get.... Good stuff..... > > > > Jim in Plano....wishing I was done with beadblasting and powdercoating and > > could get back to using the aforementioned (dang, I love those big words!) > > materials....... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <TomTravis(at)aol.com> > > To: > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: capstrip and Gusset plates > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:01:37 PM Central Standard Time, > > > bobka(at)compuserve.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > > Is the door skin waterproof? > > > > > > > > Chris Bobka > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > The specs all looked right so I got some and did a water soak test and > > there > > > was no delamination. > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 19, 2003
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Pieters,young and old. Several times I've entered the discussions of wood sources. All I will say is: If you buy from a NW source in 2X6- 16ft lengths. Pay a little freight charge you will come out way ahead ie For my Piet I used Doug Fir @ $ 4.45 per bd ft. Of course I had to mill it but that was part of the building fun. On Repiet I am going totally with select sitka spruce @ $8.50 per bd ft bought as 2X6-16 ft long. Again I had to mill it. I'm building Repiet out of fine spruce. Entire plane will be less than than $900 in spruce. Calculate Wicks and ASS and it will figure between $25 and $28 per bd ft. It's your money. Corky, the ole tight wad in La If anyone is interested contact me direct for my source of materials ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ellie & Jim Sheen" <sheenej(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Another fuselage width question
Date: Dec 19, 2003
John, I am working on the fuselage for the "Improved Air Camper" and compared measurements with the "Original" And found the 9+" to be distributed somewhat evenly throughout length of the fuselage. Check the drawings of both versions and plan accordingly. Good luck. Jim Sheen ----- Original Message ----- From: "john e fay" <jefay(at)juno.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Another fuselage width question > > > > > > > > > This is exactly what I was proposing. However in searching the > > archives I can't find anyone who has done it this way, they all > > widen from the firewall back. Has anyone built their fuselage this > > way? > > > Rick, > > I have not yet built my fuselage, but that is my plan also, to keep the > fuselage the full 24" width to the back of the pilot's seat. One of the > first Pietenpol forums I attended at OSH I asked Vi Kapler about this and > he said it should be no problem, especially in my case since I was > planning to build the long fuselage. The long fuselage (if I remember > this right, but I haven't checked the plans about this for about 2 years) > adds about 10 inches to the length of the total fuselage, and 6-8 inches > of this is behind the pilot's seat. That shouldn't make the bending much > more severe. But if you are worried about making the bends OK, another > option is to laminate the whole longeron out of thinner strips, building > in the bend. > > John Fay in Peoria > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: BS 1088
> >Jim, > >That is good stuff. It is what I used on the Waco Taperwing ribs. I even >think it is better than the U. S. made MIL-W-6070 plywood. The BS1088 is >mahoghany throughout while the 6070 is poplar core. > >I had purchased mine at Aircraft Spruce about 9 years ago. They no longer >carry it. > >Where did you guys get it again? Do you have an address in phone number? I >might have to do a long Dallas layover and buy some and ship it back to MN. > >Chris Bobka Chris, You can also get the BS1088 from Noah's Marine (www.noahsmarine.com - I think, if that doesn't work, I know they come up on a Google search of BS1088). They are in Buffalo & on the west coast somwhere. According to their web site (the last time I checked, about a year ago), they will ship to individuals & the shipping costs are no worse, if not better than ACS/wicks. Of coures, the cost for the wood is considerably cheaper. Everything they sell is metric (thickness), as I believe this stuff comes from Israel, but it's not too hard to figure out what you need. Cheers, Kip Gardner North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: BS 1088
Kip, Noahs doesn't actually sell out of Buffalo. What they do is ship it from Toronto to Buffalo and you do the pickup there. You also get hit for the shipping. If you are going to do a Buffalo pickup you may as well go the extra 2 hours to Toronto and do some drooling at the store. It is just under 3 hours each way for me. Canadians all drive like they are flying low :-). The Okume ply that I bought was made in Israel from African wood and for some reason was duty free into the US as long as it was for personal use. You can also get back the 15% VAT. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 At 06:34 PM 12/19/2003, you wrote: > > > > > > >Jim, > > > >That is good stuff. It is what I used on the Waco Taperwing ribs. I even > >think it is better than the U. S. made MIL-W-6070 plywood. The BS1088 is > >mahoghany throughout while the 6070 is poplar core. > > > >I had purchased mine at Aircraft Spruce about 9 years ago. They no longer > >carry it. > > > >Where did you guys get it again? Do you have an address in phone number? I > >might have to do a long Dallas layover and buy some and ship it back to MN. > > > >Chris Bobka > >Chris, > >You can also get the BS1088 from Noah's Marine (www.noahsmarine.com - I >think, if that doesn't work, I know they come up on a Google search of >BS1088). > >They are in Buffalo & on the west coast somwhere. According to their web >site (the last time I checked, about a year ago), they will ship to >individuals & the shipping costs are no worse, if not better than >ACS/wicks. Of coures, the cost for the wood is considerably cheaper. >Everything they sell is metric (thickness), as I believe this stuff comes >from Israel, but it's not too hard to figure out what you need. > >Cheers, > >Kip Gardner > >North Canton, OH > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: BS 1088
> > >Kip, > >Noahs doesn't actually sell out of Buffalo. What they do is ship it from >Toronto to Buffalo and you do the pickup there. You also get hit for the >shipping. If you are going to do a Buffalo pickup you may as well go the >extra 2 hours to Toronto and do some drooling at the store. It is just >under 3 hours each way for me. Canadians all drive like they are flying >low :-). > >The Okume ply that I bought was made in Israel from African wood and for >some reason was duty free into the US as long as it was for personal >use. You can also get back the 15% VAT. > >Dave >N36078 '41 BC-12-65 Dave, Thanks for the clarification. I'll be needing some wood from them a little later, probably next summer. Don't know if I'll drive up or let them ship it - it's a 'fur piece' from here to there, even if I drove like a Canadian the whole way :). Merry Christmas. Hope to see you at Barber this summer. Kip North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: BS 1088 - Noah's
Date: Dec 19, 2003
I got all my 1/8 and 1/4 ply at Noah's. excellent quality and shipping was very fast and surprisingly cheap to Arizona. I think 4 4x8 sheets were around $50 to ship. here's the link http://noahsmarine.com/United_States/Plywoods-us/plywoods-us.html DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2003
From: dave rowe <rowed044(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
Demel Aircraft in BC sells aircraft grade ply as thin as 1mm, and Yellow cedar is perfect for the wing ribs, I can mill enough 1/2 X 1/4 for all the ribs in a day or two, cost here on Vancouver Island is about $3.00 per board ft. William Rives Young wrote: > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. Last time school interfered. I am having trouble finding plywood thin enough to make gusset plates. The plans call for 1/16 inch plates and nobody sells plywood that tin. I am also having trouble finding Douglas fir to make the caps strips. I have tried home depot and Lowe's and neither carry Douglas fir. The reason that I haven't ordered spruce from aircraft spruce or wicks is because I will only be able to afford to do this a little at a time until I am out of college. Any suggestions? > > Will > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2003
Subject: [ Walter Bowe ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Walter Bowe Subject: Ford Powered Pietenpol assembled before cover. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Wcbowe@aol.com.12.20.2003/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2003
Subject: [ Michael Cuy ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Michael Cuy Subject: A replica/imitation of the bike they have at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome that I built. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov.12.20.2003/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [ Walter Bowe ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
Date: Dec 20, 2003
Walter, the ship looks great! chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Email List Photo Shares" <pictures(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: [ Walter Bowe ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! > > > A new Email List Photo Share is available: > > Poster: Walter Bowe > > > Subject: Ford Powered Pietenpol assembled before cover. > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Wcbowe@aol.com.12.20.2003/index.html > > > o Main Photo Share Index > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > o Submitting a Photo Share > > If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the > following information along with your email message and files: > > 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: > 2) Your Full Name: > 3) Your Email Address: > 4) One line Subject description: > 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: > 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: > > Email the information above and your files and photos to: > > pictures(at)matronics.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Wonderful!
Date: Dec 20, 2003
Mike, Thanks for the photos of the "Aero Bike" on photo share. It's great to find someone who has a sense of humor and doesn't take aviation and ourselves too seriously! John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2003
From: Franck <franck(at)geneseo.net>
Subject: 95 HP Corvair engines (Was: Corvair Engines)
Oscar, Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have gleaned from the corvair list and reading William's manual, there should virtually be no difference between the 95 block and the 110 block. Both use the same 8409 crank, the same connecting rods and have the same bore and stroke. It's my understanding that the difference in horsepower comes from the cam and carbs and both of these are replaced during the conversion. There may be some minor variations in the combustion chamber design but nothing to alter the final horsepower output. I don't see where relieving the case is an issue. Are you confusing the 95 hp engine with the 80/102/150 hp engines, or did I miss something? Sincerely, Ron Franck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Boss" <bossone(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 95 HP Corvair engines (Was: Corvair Engines)
Date: Dec 21, 2003
There is a difference in heads. A1964 95 HP engine had head number3839886, 3839887, 3886255 or, 3856626. The 1965-66 used 3856743,3883862, 3886259. The 1968-69 3878569. There is no reference to a 1967 95 HP engine in my reference source http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIRCRAFT/HeadNumbers.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Franck" <franck(at)geneseo.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 95 HP Corvair engines (Was: Corvair Engines) > > Oscar, Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have gleaned from the > corvair list and reading William's manual, there should virtually be no > difference between the 95 block and the 110 block. Both use the same 8409 > crank, the same connecting rods and have the same bore and stroke. It's my > understanding that the difference in horsepower comes from the cam and > carbs and both of these are replaced during the conversion. There may be > some minor variations in the combustion chamber design but nothing to alter > the final horsepower output. I don't see where relieving the case is an > issue. Are you confusing the 95 hp engine with the 80/102/150 hp engines, > or did I miss something? > Sincerely, Ron Franck > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2003
From: javier cruz <javcr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Piets from LA to OAK
Hi Piets I have to drive from LA to OAK on dec 26 and maybe 27, so i would like to make some stop on any point for rest and what the best if i have the chance for see any Piet ..(this time is a pleasure trip Jim).. anyone of you have some spare time on that days?.. My best wishes for all off you on this christmas.. Saludos de Mexico Javier Cruz __________________________________ http://photos.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "chris mckeage" <chriscolleen(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Piets in CA?
Date: Dec 22, 2003
Interested to buy a Piet but need a ride in one to be sure. Who can I buy a ride from? I live near Sacremento CA, I have an RV 6 and will meet you at your airport. Thanks Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Updated Web site
Date: Dec 22, 2003
Hi Pieters, I have changed my domain name on the web site to http://www.cpc-world.com. I would be grateful if anybody could have a look and see if its working OK. Many thanks Peter Wonthaggi, Australia. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2003
Subject: Re: capstrip and Gusset plates
From: john e fay <jefay(at)juno.com>
writes: > > > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. If my memory serves, you only need a 2' X 4' piece of 1/16" ply to make all of the gussets for the ribs. John in Peoria ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: capstrip and Gusset plates
Date: Dec 22, 2003
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten(at)Governair.com>
> > I am getting ready to try and start making my wing ribs again. > > If my memory serves, you only need a 2' X 4' piece of 1/16" > ply to make > all of the gussets for the ribs. > > John in Peoria > > John, I needed a bit more than that, like another piece half that size. Also I cut my gussets square, and rectangular, with a paper cutter and tin snips. I think that would save some material over cutting them in a circular design. You'll find other places to use 1/16" ply on the Piet so order 2 pieces 2' x 4' and save on the shipping Kent ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re: Updated Web site
Date: Dec 22, 2003
Site works and looks great. Ken GN1 2992 In Sunny Ontario, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Updated Web site > > Hi Pieters, > > I have changed my domain name on the web site to http://www.cpc-world.com. I > would be grateful if anybody could have a look and see if its working OK. > > Many thanks > > Peter > Wonthaggi, Australia. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesJboyer(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 22, 2003
Subject: Re: Piets from LA to OAK
Hello Javier, If you feel like an extra drive about 60 miles North of Oakland/San Francisco; feel welcome to come and look over my Piet in Santa Rosa. I have all wood structures done except for wing assembly, have 100+ steel parts, and have all Corvair engine parts now to start final cleaning of engine case prior to engine assembly. I hope to attend the California Corvair College in January and assemble my engine there. If you want to come another 60 miles North just say so and will give you directions to my place. Cheers, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Help for new Pietenpol builders......
Date: Dec 23, 2003
The recent plywood type/source discussion made me realize there are some questions that need answers and the answers don't change much...... So I've put together a short document to help find some answers to the questions that we all seem to ask when we first start out..... It's here: <http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/PeoplesFiles/Pietenpol%20Builder's%20Guide %20to%20the%20Universe.doc> If that link does not work (mine usually don't), the document is called "Pietenpol Builder's Guide to the Universe" and it's in the "Files Library" section of mykitplane.com under "Scanned Piet Articles" It's a big file (1.5MB) so if anyone wants it emailed directly, let me know (OFFLINE). I plan on adding to it when something comes along that I can cut and paste from an email or where ever but won't do much more than that (I would rather spend the time BUILDING!!!) I'll try to avoid subjective commentary and opinions. (ie: A65 vs Model A, which is better????) and sticking with the basic stuff that we all asked when we got started. New builders can ask for opinions/commentary here or where ever they want..... Depending on my mood and workload, it may now have ALL the info it will ever have. I'm making no promises/commitments. But I do think it was far too frustrating to get started only to find out later that had I even KNOWN to ask "that one question".....I could have done it better or avoided a lot of redoing...... I'm not editing/copywriting, so if you have any ideas, please send something I can just cut and paste into the document.....so we don't want to add things like "I wish I had known about optional woods for the ribs"....maybe something like: "Check into Douglas Fir and White Pine and other as good alternative woods for the ribs...." would be a little more helpful for a new builder. Some new builders think Spruce is the ONLY wood to use.....(I sure did...) Several on this list have already added some really good stuff to the document and there's a LOT more that can be added. Ok, what do you wish you had asked or did ask and had to find out the hard way (and WHAT did you find out?) that I can add to the document? Comments? Suggestions? Wishing all a safe and happy holiday! Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Time of The Year
Date: Dec 23, 2003
I know this is kinda off-subject, but I couldn't resist saying: HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL Barry Davis Dixie Division ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com>
Subject: Re: Updated Web site
Date: Dec 19, 2003
Hello. Good looking site but some of the text is blanked out by being overlaid (or being overlain) by other layers. Cordially, Mac in Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914(at)cogeco.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Updated Web site > > Site works and looks great. > > Ken > > GN1 2992 > > In Sunny Ontario, Canada > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Updated Web site > > > > > > > Hi Pieters, > > > > I have changed my domain name on the web site to http://www.cpc-world.com. > I > > would be grateful if anybody could have a look and see if its working OK. > > > > Many thanks > > > > Peter > > Wonthaggi, Australia. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: prop needed- off topic
Oscar-- Is your friend in Rockford, IL by any chance with the Mooney Mite ? Just curious because the one we used to fly here was just sold a few months ago to a fellow in IL. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2003
From: "Mike B." <piet(at)pointdx.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
Subject: Re: prop needed- off topic
Not the termite bait! Michael D Cuy wrote: > > Oscar-- Is your friend in Rockford, IL by any chance with the Mooney Mite > ? Just curious because the one we used to fly here was just sold a few > months ago to a fellow in IL. > > Mike C. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms(at)msn.com>
Subject: "Holiday" greetings
Date: Dec 24, 2003
Dear friends (and gentle people)- Jim Markle has enshrined himself into the hearts of Pieters of the future by making a compendium of questions available to all. Instead of soliciting inputs, he has gone ahead and actually DONE something on his own and then given it to us. How refreshing in a world that awaits the results of polls or won't proceed with anything unless assurances are first secured that the outcome will be what the majority thinks is right. Thanks, buddy! That should be a boon to those who follow. I was going to add my wishes to all for a "happy holiday" but I'm about fed up with all this P.C. stuff so, at the risk of offending anyone, I would like to say........... Merry Christmas to all you great people who are building/flying Pietenpols!!!!! Larry ps. Keep in mind that 2004 is the 75th anniversary of Bernard's wonderful little airplane so let's darken the skies over Urbana in June as well as Brodhead and Oshkosh in July/August. There are already forces at work to make this a "big deal". Let's Roll! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2003
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: "Holiday" greetings
Amen to all that, Larry Williams. To me, all this PC stuff is diluting the way America was founded---on freedoms. I thank God that I'm free to say that and hope that each and every one of you have a wonderful Christmas and that you and your families would be greatly blessed in the new year. I'd also like to thank all the veterans or current servicemen have or are serving our country to defend these freedoms. I appreciate you all very much. And as far as Pietenpols go, I say "build more in 2004 !" Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Anthony" <akwusmc(at)comcast.net>
Subject: New member.
Date: Dec 24, 2003
All, Just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Anthony, and I just joined the Pietenpol list after having lurked for about 2 months. My dad got me Air Camper plans for Christmas, as well as a few other homebuilding goodies (all 5 Flying & Glider Annuals!). I'm not sure what plane I'm going to build, butr the Air Camper is at the top of my short list. Anyway, just wanted to say hello, and to wish everyone a Merry Christmas! Anthony ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Fw: EAA e-HOT LINE, Special Edition, Vol. 3 , No. 61
Date: Dec 24, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: ehotline Subject: EAA e-HOT LINE, Special Edition, Vol. 3 , No. 61 EAA =B7 AirVenture =B7 Homebuilts =B7 Ultralights =B7 Sport Pilot =B7 Aerobatics =B7 NAFI =B7 Vintage Aircraft =B7 Warbirds Departure: Destination: Upcoming Aviation Events Young Eagles Rallies EAA AirVenture Museum Events How can we help you? To ask a question regarding government issues, e-mail govt(at)eaa.org. If you have a question about registration, airmen, aircraft and medical certification, safety records, performance, or any other matter, e-mail infoserv(at)eaa.org. We are pleased to provide this info to EAA members as a membership benefit. To ensure that this service continues, renew your membership or join EAA today by calling 800/843-3612 or 920/426-5912. Upcoming Workshops January 16-18 Corona (LA area), CA Topic: RV Assembly January 24 Oshkosh, WI Topic: Test Flying Your Project January 24-25 Oshkosh, WI Topics: Introduction to Aircraft Building, Sheet Metal Basics, Composite Construction, Fabric Covering, Gas Welding, Electrical Systems and Avionics and What's Involved in Kitbuilding? January 2004 EAA Desktop Calendar Aviation's Golden Age illustrated: EAA's Pioneer Airport at twilight will fit nicely on your desktop as we begin the New Year. Visit the EAA website and select one of three resolutions. EAA's Official Electronic Newsletter EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2004 July 27-August 2 December 24, 2003 Volume 3, Number 61 Special Edition e-HOT LINE's next issue will be Friday, January 9, 2004 News You Can Use --- Great News! Sport Pilot Leaves DOT for OMB Christmas came early to the aviation community when Department of Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta signed off on the sport pilot/light-sport aircraft rulemaking package and forwarded it to the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) late on Tuesday, December 23. "This is great news, as it completes an important step to make sport pilot/light-sport aircraft a reality," said EAA President Tom Poberezny. "My compliments to FAA and DOT for their hard work in getting this important task accomplished. EAA and the aviation community have been looking forward to this important announcement as the rulemaking package enters its final phase." OMB now has 90 days in which to review and return the package to the FAA, at which time it would be published in the Federal Register as a final rule. Merry Christmas from all of us at EAA! Are you searching for an Aircraft STC? You can look it up on www.airweb.faa.gov/stc. Are you searching for an Aircraft AD? Look for it here. If you wish to unsubscribe from EAA e-Hot Line, simply send an e-mail to membership(at)eaa.org with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject field. We welcome your comments and suggestions to ehotline(at)eaa.org. All content, logos and pictures are the property of EAA - Copyright =A9 2003 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 24, 2003
Subject: Re: Fw: EAA e-HOT LINE, Special Edition, Vol. 3 , No.
61 On the Sport Pilot issue: Praise the Lord from whom all blessings flow Corky in La #7090 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: New member.
Date: Dec 24, 2003
Welcome Anthony! The more the merrier. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony" <akwusmc(at)comcast.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New member. > > All, > > Just wanted to introduce myself. > > My name is Anthony, and I just joined the Pietenpol list after having lurked for about 2 months. My dad got me Air Camper plans for Christmas, as well as a few other homebuilding goodies (all 5 Flying & Glider Annuals!). I'm not sure what plane I'm going to build, butr the Air Camper is at the top of my short list. > > Anyway, just wanted to say hello, and to wish everyone a Merry Christmas! > > Anthony > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: EAA e-HOT LINE, Special Edition, Vol. 3 , No.
61
Date: Dec 24, 2003
Merry Christmas , Corky! It won't be long now! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: EAA e-HOT LINE, Special Edition, Vol. 3 , No. 61 > > On the Sport Pilot issue: > > Praise the Lord from whom all blessings flow > > Corky in La #7090 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 24, 2003
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 12/22/03
In a message dated 12/23/03 1:56:57 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets from LA to OAK >> Javier, I have an extra room for you, and a partially built Piet in the hangar. Let me know off-line what your plans ns/or needs are: Carl Lekven, Compton Airport ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2003
From: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: The Big Red Man
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all you wood butchers! Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" <twinboom(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 12/22/03
Date: Dec 25, 2003
Carl, I need to pick up my heads. If Javier decides to come by your place, drop me a line, I'd like to meet him as well. I have not dropped by in a few months to see how you are doing. How is the center section coming? Doug B. Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California www.inlandsloperebels.com<http://www.inlandsloperebels.com/> W.W. conversion manual, #3202 www.flycorvair.com<http://www.flycorvair.com/> ----- Original Message ----- From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com<mailto:ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 7:26 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 12/22/03 In a message dated 12/23/03 1:56:57 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets from LA to OAK >> Javier, I have an extra room for you, and a partially built Piet in the hangar. Let me know off-line what your plans ns/or needs are: Carl Lekven, Compton Airport ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jake Nichols" <cowboyjake(at)insight.rr.com>
Subject: Pietenpols near Columbus Oh
Date: Dec 25, 2003
I was looking for Piets around Columbus Ohio that I might be able to visit. I live on the east side in Reynoldsburg and plan on visiting the EAA chapters in Lancaster and Newark in the next few months. Thanks in advance, James Nichols ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 2003
Subject: Piets in California??????
From: Fred Weaver <mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
First of all.... Merry Christmas all you Pieters.. Hey you guys.... My buddy Chris McKeague posted a request the other day to the list about trying to find a "Flying" Pietenpol in California that he could go get a ride in. Not one single response..... Isn't there anyone flying a Piet in California? I hardly believe that. Chris has an RV6 and can fly anywhere within reason to get a lift in a Piet and he is not a fricken tire kicker. He is interested in buying the one for sale in Iowa but has never had the opportunity to fly a Piet. Perhaps everyone flying a Piet in this state isn't online???? I hardly believe that. I know Steve Eldredge would give him a fine ride but who wants to fly all the way to Utah in December/January to go for a ride?? How 'bout getting with the program and return a post with some favorable info.... Happy New Year to all, Weav ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" <twinboom(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Piets in California??????
Date: Dec 26, 2003
Fred, I have met a gentleman at an air show on one occasion who lives up in Lancaster area. His name is Scott Liefield. He is a member of the Lancaster EAA Chapetr. Here is hios email address, Pietman(at)QNET.COM . Maybe he can help you out. Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California www.inlandsloperebels.com<http://www.inlandsloperebels.com/> W.W. conversion manual, #3202 www.flycorvair.com<http://www.flycorvair.com/> ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver<mailto:mytyweav(at)earthlink.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 11:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets in California?????? First of all.... Merry Christmas all you Pieters.. Hey you guys.... My buddy Chris McKeague posted a request the other day to the list about trying to find a "Flying" Pietenpol in California that he could go get a ride in. Not one single response..... Isn't there anyone flying a Piet in California? I hardly believe that. Chris has an RV6 and can fly anywhere within reason to get a lift in a Piet and he is not a fricken tire kicker. He is interested in buying the one for sale in Iowa but has never had the opportunity to fly a Piet. Perhaps everyone flying a Piet in this state isn't online???? I hardly believe that. I know Steve Eldredge would give him a fine ride but who wants to fly all the way to Utah in December/January to go for a ride?? How 'bout getting with the program and return a post with some favorable info.... Happy New Year to all, Weav ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary L Bell" <glbell(at)midohio.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpols near Columbus Oh
Date: Dec 26, 2003
Jake, I'm up here in the fastest growing county in Ohio. I'm about 30 miles north of you just off US 23 short north of Delaware, Ohio. I have all of the airframe complete and am working on the engine at this time. As everyone says 80% complete with 90% to go. I work on it on the weekends and have been doing so for the past 4 years. Gary Bell (EAA 599520) Delaware, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Nichols" <cowboyjake(at)insight.rr.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpols near Columbus Oh > > I was looking for Piets around Columbus Ohio that I might be able to visit. I live on the east side in Reynoldsburg and plan on visiting the EAA chapters in Lancaster and Newark in the next few months. > > Thanks in advance, > > James Nichols > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: new member/selecting the Pietenpol
Date: Dec 26, 2003
Anthony wrote- >My dad got me Air Camper plans for Christmas, as well as a few other >homebuilding goodies (all 5 Flying & Glider Annuals!). I'm not sure >what plane I'm going to build I'm going to go out on a limb here, not having my own F&G Annuals here in front of me. I daresay that of all the designs that you'll find in the Annuals, there are none that have as many flying examples as the Pietenpol, and none that have as much current builder support. Try to find a "Gere Sport Builder's List" or a "Buhl Bullpup Support Group"! Try to find a "Longster Fly-In" or... well, you get the idea. But seriously (since I'm sure you weren't just referring to the designs covered in the old Annuals), if you compare the Piet to other classic designs like the Hatz, the Pixie, the Heath, or the Fly Baby, or even many of the commercial classic replicas, you'll find that the Piet is an honest and rugged design as well as being practical to build and very well recognized in the homebuilt community. It has classic lines, realistic utility, and meets the main criterion that you should have at the top of both your building and flying checklists: it's FUN! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2003
From: "catdesign(at)intergate.com" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Hard Wire
On the Air Camper plans, solid wire is used for the tail and internal wing bracing. In the past, there has been some discussion as to the appropriate wire to use so I figured I would pass along this information for anyone thinking of using solid wire. Source: The Aircraft Handbook, A collection of facts and suggestions concerning the construction and care of planes, motors and instruments for those interested in modern aircraft, Fred H. Colvin and Henry F. Colvin, published in 1928. Rigging the Airplane The rigger must learn to distinguish between the different kinds of wire for different purposes and between the grades which are good and those which are unstable for use in various places. It is important to know the quality of wire, which must not be too hard or too soft. A practical test is as follows: Take three pieces of wire of the same gage and about a foot long, selecting one which is too soft, and too hard and the third of the right quality. Clamp in a vise near a window and polish the wire so as to show light reflections more clearly. Bend the wire over sharply and as far as possible. The soft wire will flatten out somewhat, as may be told by noting that the band of light on the wire has broadened out at the bend. The hard wire will probably show slight cracks or a roughness of the surface-the beginning of cracks to be developed later. The right wire will show a slightly broader band of light but will not show the slightest roughness of the surface. Wire Loops Wire is often bent at the end in the form of a loop. These loops, even when made perfectly, have a tendency to elongate, thus spoiling the adjustment of the wires. Great care should be taken to minimize this as much as possible. The rules to be observed are as follows: 1. The size of the loop should be as small as possible within reason. By that we mean that it should not be so small as to create the possibility of the wires breaking. 2. The shape of the loop must be symmetrical. 3. The loop should have good shoulders in order to prevent the ferrule from slipping up. At the same time, the shoulders should have no angular points. 4. When the loop is finished, it should be undamaged, and it should not be, as is often the case, badly scored. Tension of Wires The tension to which you adjust the wires is of the greatest importance. All the wires on the airplane should be of the same tension, otherwise the airplane will quickly become distorted and fly badly. As a rule, the wires are tensioned too much. The tension should be sufficient to keep the framework rigid. Anything more then that spoils the factor of safety, throws various parts of the framework into undue compression, pulls the fittings into the wood, and will, in the end, distort the whole framework of the airplane. Elsewhere in the book it says: See that no brace wires are slack, yet not so taut that, when plucked, they sing. Chris T. Sacramento, Ca ------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2003
From: "catdesign(at)intergate.com" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Help for new Pietenpol builders......
Jim add this to your file: The Pietenpol Air Camper was designed to use 1020 steel and 1020 steel brazes just fine. However, if you chooses to substitute 4130 steel for the 1020 steel, most experts (not all) will tell you to weld it DO NOT Braze it. 4130 has a tendency to crack when brazed. Chris T. sitting at work in an office that is as dead as a ghost town in the middle of Nevada. ------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Help for new Pietenpol builders......
Date: Dec 26, 2003
Added..... Thanks! jm ----- Original Message ----- From: <catdesign(at)intergate.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Help for new Pietenpol builders...... > > Jim add this to your file: > > The Pietenpol Air Camper was designed to use 1020 steel and 1020 steel brazes > just fine. However, if you chooses to substitute 4130 steel for the 1020 > steel, most experts (not all) will tell you to weld it DO NOT Braze it. 4130 > has a tendency to crack when brazed. > > Chris T. sitting at work in an office that is as dead as a ghost town in the > middle of Nevada. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List Now Supports Enclosures and Embedding...
Dear Pietenpol Listers, At the Chris Bobka, I've removed all of the message filtering on the Pietenpol-List. All of the normal formatting stuff including HUGE, colored fonts and embedded photos and graphics should work as advertised. Enclosures should work normally as well. Both embedded and enclosed files types will be limited to JPG/GIF/PDF/TXT/XLS. The Archive, Digest, and List Browser will still be stripped down to plain-text only for technical reasons. Enjoy! Matt Matronics Email List. --- Here is an embedded picture: 2d1db0b.jpg End of Embedded Picture. These are some special features... * Here is some HUGE RED TEXT with special font. * Oh, this is a bullet list, too. Here's an Indent. Here is a standard enclosure: ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Embedding...
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Now Supports Enclosures and
Embedding... --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Wow! let me try that
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Testing 1-2-3 walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
From: Fred Weaver <mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with the short answer instead of a book... On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: > Testing 1-2-3 > walt evans > NX140DL > <148-4806_IMG.JPG> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Thanks Fred, Seems like a good idea to me, but then I'm no computer expert. We could get pics across before but had to post them somewhere else. If Matt offers it I'll guess I'll use it. Works great on my computer, so I'll give it a thumbs up. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 3:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with the short answer instead of a book... On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: Testing 1-2-3 walt evans NX140DL <148-4806_IMG.JPG> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Subject: Re:Wow! let me try that
From: Fred Weaver <mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Walt... The thing is, before you had to use the photoshare and it sometimes took a few days for the pictures to post. Now, you can use the email list as the tool it was intended to be. Let's say someone has a question about a carburetor install that is somewhat unique. Someone out there has probably got a picture of one he had seen or built himself/herself... It's so easy and timely now to simply post the picture along with some text. Here's my ride.... Wittman Tailwind W10 Lyc 0-360 Hope the file is small enough to load quickly.. Learning here too... Weav On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:42 PM, w b evans wrote: > Thanks Fred, > Seems like a good idea to me, but then I'm no computer expert.=A0 We > could get pics across before but had to post them somewhere else.=A0 If > Matt offers it I'll guess I'll use it. > Works great on my computer, so I'll give it a thumbs up. > walt evans > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Weaver > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 3:36 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that > > hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... > Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a > bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with > the short answer instead of a book... > > On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: > > Testing 1-2-3 > walt evans > NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Yup, I agree. Seems like a good idea. Well, at least for me and probably Chris Bobka and the others on the list with high speed access. But not everyone on this list has high speed access. So keep in mind that an email with a picture can easily increase the size of the message by a factor of 20 to 25. That may not in fact increase the download time by that exact same factor but it will slow it down. That can really be annoying. Fact is, these lists typically take a hit when something (or someone, ie "The Fisherman") becomes too much of an annoyance. Probably more trouble than it's worth, but maybe there's some way to let some subscribe to a more ascii, straight text ("quickly downloaded") version and the rest of us subscribe to a "pictures included" ("huge files but I don't care") format. I personally won't be impacted one way or the other, but I hate to see a negative impact (and resulting loss of their participation) for some of the folks on this list that don't have high speed access. Maybe everyone already has high speed access and this is a moot point...... While I'm thinking about it, I think I'll go access some high speed varnishing and sanding..... Jim in Plano ----- Original Message ----- From: w b evans To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that Thanks Fred, Seems like a good idea to me, but then I'm no computer expert. We could get pics across before but had to post them somewhere else. If Matt offers it I'll guess I'll use it. Works great on my computer, so I'll give it a thumbs up. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 3:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with the short answer instead of a book... On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: Testing 1-2-3 walt evans NX140DL <148-4806_IMG.JPG> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re:Wow! let me try that
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Fred, BEAUTIFUL! What a great picture. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Weaver" <mytyweav(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re:Wow! let me try that > Walt... The thing is, before you had to use the photoshare and it > sometimes took a few days for the pictures to post. Now, you can use > the email list as the tool it was intended to be. Let's say someone > has a question about a carburetor install that is somewhat unique. > Someone out there has probably got a picture of one he had seen or > built himself/herself... It's so easy and timely now to simply post > the picture along with some text. > Here's my ride.... Wittman Tailwind W10 Lyc 0-360 Hope the file > is small enough to load quickly.. Learning here too... > Weav > > ---- ---- On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:42 PM, w b evans wrote: > Thanks Fred, > Seems like a good idea to me, but then I'm no computer expert. We > could get pics across before but had to post them somewhere else. If > Matt offers it I'll guess I'll use it. > Works great on my computer, so I'll give it a thumbs up. > walt evans > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Weaver > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 3:36 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that > > hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... > Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a > bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with > the short answer instead of a book... > > On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: > > Testing 1-2-3 > walt evans > NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
<01bf01c3ccbe$049804f0$6401a8c0@jmarkle>
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Jim, Can you describe how people would select this "text only" situation. I too would not want to lose anyone with any input , due to high tech stuff. The greatest airplane expert that I know is my mid 80's Mentor, but the only mouse that he's ever held , was one he took out of a trap : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Cc: Matt Dralle Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 4:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that Yup, I agree. Seems like a good idea. Well, at least for me and probably Chris Bobka and the others on the list with high speed access. But not everyone on this list has high speed access. So keep in mind that an email with a picture can easily increase the size of the message by a factor of 20 to 25. That may not in fact increase the download time by that exact same factor but it will slow it down. That can really be annoying. Fact is, these lists typically take a hit when something (or someone, ie "The Fisherman") becomes too much of an annoyance. Probably more trouble than it's worth, but maybe there's some way to let some subscribe to a more ascii, straight text ("quickly downloaded") version and the rest of us subscribe to a "pictures included" ("huge files but I don't care") format. I personally won't be impacted one way or the other, but I hate to see a negative impact (and resulting loss of their participation) for some of the folks on this list that don't have high speed access. Maybe everyone already has high speed access and this is a moot point...... While I'm thinking about it, I think I'll go access some high speed varnishing and sanding..... Jim in Plano ----- Original Message ----- From: w b evans To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that Thanks Fred, Seems like a good idea to me, but then I'm no computer expert. We could get pics across before but had to post them somewhere else. If Matt offers it I'll guess I'll use it. Works great on my computer, so I'll give it a thumbs up. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 3:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wow! let me try that hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with the short answer instead of a book... On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: Testing 1-2-3 walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
Pieters, If not too much of a burden, would you please take a minute and send me a description of "high speed access"? I pay my bill each month to cable and AOL but I really don't know for what. Corky in a fog in La ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
<5237F40E-38AC-11D8-9171-000393593CE0(at)earthlink.net> The problem with posting a picture as mail is that if you aren't on the list when it is sent then you will never see it. If you use a drop box for the pictures then they are available forever. You lose an awful lot of useful stuff by posting it instead of uploading it. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 At 03:36 PM 12/27/2003, you wrote: >hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... >Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question about a >bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and respond with the >short answer instead of a book... > >On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: > >>Testing 1-2-3 >>walt evans >>NX140DL >><148-4806_IMG.JPG> > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >EUDORA=AUTOURL>http://www.grisoft.com). > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
From: Fred Weaver <mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Dave... That's why the "Photoshare" feature is used... If something needs to be archived, it can be done easily. Just takes an extra day or two to get there. I think the only thing that is missing with respect to Photoshare is the ability to search by specific airplanes.. Often times, we have seen on other lists the need for some clarity of a given assembly. Several folks archive pictures they receive in various ways but it always seem to happen that someone will have that right picture at that moment and be able to send it right out. This can help a lot when a thread is going on a given subject and typically results in more feedback. It's really not a bad thing. BTW...one of our guys on the Tailwind list, captured every picture that ever came up, combined those with ones he had taken and collected all the pictures a few more of us had taken and ended up with about a thousand pictures of details not shown on plans etc. Now when someone new comes along, he burns them a CD with all the pictures on it and mails it out. This has really been beneficial by reducing the amount of "same questions" over and over when someone buys a set of plans. How about a picture of your Taylorcraft? Thanks, Weav On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 01:31 PM, Dave and Connie wrote: > The problem with posting a picture as mail is that if you aren't on > the list when it is sent then you will never see it. If you use a > drop box for the pictures then they are available forever. You lose > an awful lot of useful stuff by posting it instead of uploading it. > > Dave > N36078 '41 BC-12-65 > > At 03:36 PM 12/27/2003, you wrote: > >> hey Dave .... THIS IS WHY WE LIKE THE PICTURE POSTING FEATURE...... >> Great Picture Walt... Now when someone has a specific question >> about a bracket or something, someone can take a digital pic and >> respond with the short answer instead of a book... >> >> On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 12:14 PM, w b evans wrote: >> >>> Testing 1-2-3 >>> walt evans >>> NX140DL >>> <148-4806_IMG.JPG> >> >> >> >> --- >> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >> /" >> EUDORA=AUTOURL>http://www.grisoft.com). >> 12/26/2003 >> > > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2003
From: Dave and Connie <dmatthe1(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Wow! let me try that
<3F2B6374-38B8-11D8-A703-000393593CE0(at)earthlink.net> Fred, What I have seen on other lists is that features like Photoshare stop being used. It is a shame. People will click and attach a meg or so of photo and blast it to the list. Everyone gets to download almost 2mb for each 1mb of photo (that is how mail encoding works folks) but they will forget to upload to the archive (where a 1mb photo is a 1 mb download). One of the goodies that I got for Christmas is a copy of the Bearhawk reference CD. Very similar to what you descibe for the Tailwind. Folks that have been here a while may remember Richard Costa's web server that held a Piet photo archive. We really need to get one back. The Taylorcraft owners just got their own server and have dumped Topica. As for my plane: http://www.myplaneonline.com/users/index.cfm?content=hp.cfm&userid=278 has some pictures or go to Capt. Jon's site at http://www.taylorcraft.info/tcraft/photos2.htm and scroll down to N36078. For a more recent picture look at http://vb.taylorcraft.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73 . A fine photo of me, my pickup, and a die grinder with an abrasive pad making lots of green dust. I am hoping to varnish the spars in one panel tomorrow. With luck I will get that one put together before I have to go back to work and then I can get to ripping the other side apart. That one needs a spar scarphed. Lots of fun. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 At 05:01 PM 12/27/2003, you wrote: > >Dave... That's why the "Photoshare" feature is used... If something >needs to be archived, it can be done easily. Just takes an extra day or >two to get there. I think the only thing that is missing with respect to >Photoshare is the ability to search by specific airplanes.. Often times, >we have seen on other lists the need for some clarity of a given assembly. >Several folks archive pictures they receive in various ways but it always >seem to happen that someone will have that right picture at that moment >and be able to send it right out. This can help a lot when a thread is >going on a given subject and typically results in more feedback. It's >really not a bad thing. >BTW...one of our guys on the Tailwind list, captured every picture that >ever came up, combined those with ones he had taken and collected all the >pictures a few more of us had taken and ended up with about a thousand >pictures of details not shown on plans etc. Now when someone new comes >along, he burns them a CD with all the pictures on it and mails it out. >This has really been beneficial by reducing the amount of "same questions" >over and over when someone buys a set of plans. >How about a picture of your Taylorcraft? >Thanks, >Weav >On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 01:31 PM, Dave and Connie wrote: --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: CD's of Piet pictures......
Date: Dec 27, 2003
> BTW...one of our guys on the Tailwind list, captured every picture that > ever came up, combined those with ones he had taken and collected all > the pictures a few more of us had taken and ended up with about a > thousand pictures of details not shown on