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Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ef
November 20, 2004 - December 13, 2004

10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dont want to bore you with long-winded introductions but looks like youre in for a short one anyway. I have a son (Matthew Stinemetze) who works for Burt Rutan out in Mojave, CA. He was the lead engineer during the construction phase of SpaceShipOne and then got to fly on the mother ship White Knight as flight engineer many times including the two p; Burt gave every employee of Scaled Composites a piece of the X-Prize cash as well. Hes only 28 THATS NOT FAIR! Anyway, I decided that my kids shouldnt have all the fun so I took that event as a challenge to try a couple of fun things myself. After dreaming flying my whole live (he came by it honestly, he had to live with books, models, etc. etc., etc. during his childhood) I have decided to build an Air Camper in my workshop. Its going to be powered by a Corvair 110 HP engine which is already torn down and under way, and pulled by a hand-carved prop (been through Al Schuberts manual about three times and pretty close to getting started.) I have already collected manuals from William Wynne (The Corvair Authority), Al Schubert (the propeller guy), various GM manuals, catalogues from Aircraft Spruce and Sportys , and plans from the Pietenpol family. Oh Yeah, somewhere in there Ive got to get a pilots license too. Think thats too much to bite off for a 54-year old pleasantly plump guy from McPherson? Maybe I should just change by e-mail moniker to McIdiot? Kudos to the webmaster for a great site for much-needed information. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matt Lansford" <lansford(at)rgv.rr.com>
<003c01c4cf7a$43ac6db0$4e705118@dawsonaviation>
Subject: Re: Sheer strength for AN bolts?
Date: Nov 20, 2004
Hopefully, niether! :) Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sheer strength for AN bolts? 2/3 X tensile or 83,333.3 psi , whichever comes first. :-) Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 5:26 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sheer strength for AN bolts? AS&S lists the Tensil strength for AN bolts as 125,000 psi. Anybody know what the Sheer capacity is. Or if not, what is a typical ratio for bolts? Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 21, 2004
Subject: To those new to the list
In a message dated 11/20/04 5:31:51 PM Central Standard Time, stinemetze(at)mpks.net writes: << Think that's too much to bite off for a 54-year old "pleasantly plump" guy from McPherson? >> Tom, If they can build a space ship, you can certainly build a Pietenpol, and get your pilots licensee. Sounds like you're already started. Congratulations on having a Son that is now immortalized in the History Books !! Is that McPherson Kansas ? Welcome to the Pietenpol List !! You will find it very informative, humorous at times, and get to know like minded individuals who have been infected with 'Aeronautica Basilica'. There are Builders and Flyers alike, quite a few who have been on this list for years, and you can draw on their experience with a simple e-mail. If you wish to reply to a portion of a message, just click / drag / highlight on the original text, then click 'Reply'. The text goes on the mail that you will send, then you can make your reply...like I did on your text at the top of this message. It is very helpful if you type in the 'Subject', because all this correspondence is archived, and it makes it easier to look up a subject while searching the archives. A photo is only going to be there if the sender attaches one. However, please keep in mind that if you attach a photo to the e-mail, a lot of us have a dial up connection, and photo's take a long time to download. This is the reason Matt Dralle (webmaster) has made a site for you to send photo's to, so you can send photo's to Matronics Photo Share. Chuck Gantzer Wichita KS Cook Airfield (on the Southeast side of town) NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 20, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: straight gear brake drums---a photo of some
Welcome to the newsgroup Tom, Fifty-four certainly isn't to old to start a project. I'm 56 and this is my first project too. I love it and you will too. You will find this site very helpful so stay tuned in. The sooner you get started on your project the better. Then do some work on it everyday and before you know it, the thing starts looking like an airplane! So get started and have some fun. If you want some building pics, just let me know and I will email you some. Doc > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 21, 2004
Subject: Continental crankshaft for sale?
If anyone is interested, I have a crankshaft out of my Continental A-80 engine that I might sell. I recently purchased a fresh yellow tag crank for my engine. I had my "old" crank inspected at the same shop I bought my yellow tag crank. The crankshaft I bought a few weeks back is M020 and I was advised my "old" crankshaft needs to be turned down M020 as well (regrind to .020 under) and then polished and re-nitrided. This process will make it as good as the crankshaft I recently purchased. I paid $100 to have the "old" crankshaft inspected and magnafluxed. I think these crankshafts fit the A-65 and A-75 in addition to the A-80. I can sell the crankshaft outright, or have it turned down, polished, nitrided and yellow tagged by a certified repair shop if someone is really interested. These things are bulky and heavy and I suspect crating and shipping might run close to $100. A good place to buy crankshaft bearings is Aircraft Specialties of Tulsa. If your small Continental engine case needs work, I've had great service the past 10 years with DivCo in Tulsa. I'd recommend that anyone interested first look at Trade-A-Plane for yellow-tagged crankshafts for the small Continentals, and you'll probably have a case of "sticker-shock." I'd let mine go for much less than $1,800 I found in one advertisement. Thanks, Sterling Brooks Central Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Stinemetze" <stinemetze(at)mpks.net>
Subject: Re: straight gear brake drums---a photo of some
Date: Nov 22, 2004
Galen: Thanks for the reply. I am really getting excited about moving this project along. Actually, my enthusiasm somewhat exceeds my finances but that's nothing new. There's no way that I could turn down an offer of building photos. I've got a good, fast connection so anything you could send would be appreciated. I've already been advised to cover my own project with a lot of photos for the builder's log so maybe I can send some back one of these days. Tom Fifty-four certainly isn't to old to start a project. I'm 56 and this is my first project too. I love it and you will too. You will find this site very helpful so stay tuned in. The sooner you get started on your project the better. Then do some work on it everyday and before you know it, the thing starts looking like an airplane! So get started and have some fun. If you want some building pics, just let me know and I will email you some. Doc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: how do I post photos
Date: Nov 23, 2004
Can you guys walk me through the process of posting photos? thanks Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: how do I post photos
Date: Nov 23, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Hi Douwe, Here is the process: o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC (where it is IMC and no place for a Pietenpol today) Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: Douwe Blumberg [mailto:douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net] Subject: Pietenpol-List: how do I post photos Can you guys walk me through the process of posting photos? thanks Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Here's how to post photos to Matronics....
Date: Nov 23, 2004
Email them with a bit of info and Matt will take it from there....(per the following note): To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures(at)matronics.com !! > Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. (The "I" referred to from the Matronics instructions above is NOT me......) ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: how do I post photos Can you guys walk me through the process of posting photos? thanks Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R.Lawler" <clawler(at)ptd.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 11/22/04
Date: Nov 23, 2004
I have a C-65 Piet and am interested in changing to an O-200 if possible. Do any of you know if I can use the same engine mount and just turn the same prop faster? Craig Lawler 899CL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 23, 2004
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: how do I post photos
There are two way on the Pietenpol-List to post photos. The preferred method is to simply email to: pictures(at)matronics.com and they will be added to the public Photoshare. The other way is to simply include them with your posting to the List. Best regards, Matt At 06:09 AM 11/23/2004 Tuesday, you wrote: >Can you guys walk me through the process of posting photos? > >thanks >Douwe >douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 11/22/04
Date: Nov 23, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Craig, The short answer is, I don't think so. While the O-200 uses the same mount as a C-85, I think the A65 is different. Also, most newer O-200's use Lord mounts, while the A65 used conical bushings. I also think the bolt pattern on the prop is different, with the O-200 using a larger diameter bolt circle. Maybe Cy Galley or Chris Bobka can give you a better answer (they are both A&P's) I also doubt you could turn the same prop fast enough. My A65 is swinging a 72" prop. When I had a Cessna 140 with a C-85 and converted it to an O-200, I had to get a shorter prop in order to develop the RPMs that generated the extra horsepower. As I recall, the O-200 swung a 69" prop. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- I have a C-65 Piet and am interested in changing to an O-200 if possible. Do any of you know if I can use the same engine mount and just turn the same prop faster? Craig Lawler 899CL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 23, 2004
Subject: BHP's 1932 Scout for sale on Barnstormers!
The below text was copied from barnstormers, FYI. ORIGINAL 1932 PIETENPOL SCOUT FOR SALE =E2=80=A2 $19,500 =E2=80=A2 FOR SALE=20TO GOOD HOME =E2=80=A2 Just in time for Christmas! Rare chance for someone to fly home in the one and only original 1932 Pietenpol Scout, built and owned by Bernard Pietenpol. NX12941 now offered to a good home. Serial No. 12 Model B4A1. 7 hours SMOH Model A, recovered 1995 by Gar Williams. Logs signed by BHP...$19.5 obo =E2=80=A2=20Contact Larry Harmacinski - located Cornelius, NC USA =E2=80=A2 Telephone: 704-896-9091 =E2=80=A2 Posted November 20, 2004 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chet's Mail" <Chethartley1(at)mchsi.com>
Subject: 65 Eng
Date: Nov 23, 2004
Craig are you planning to sell the 65 hp engine? If so what are the hours and brake down of this engine. Thank you ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paulsen" <dpaul(at)fidnet.com>
Subject: Straight Axle - Weld or Drill
Date: Nov 23, 2004
I'm about to rig my axle the way Michael Cuy did using a bolt protruding downward from the axle through a tube to prevent the axle from rolling and as a safety catch in case of a failed bungie. I would like to use a couple of long hardened steel 5/16" bolts. I have two questions. Are the 5/16" bolts too skinny for the job? And, which would be best - welding the bolts to the bottom of the axle or just drilling clean through the axle and securing the bolt with nuts? I'm afraid that a weld would just break under pressure and, on the other hand, that drilling a 5/16" hole though my axle would weaken the axle. Thanks - Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Straight Axle - Weld or Drill
Date: Nov 23, 2004
Hi Dave, I used the pins like Mike did. I used the same dimensions he did - 1/2" tube. I drilled the hole through the axle and inserted the tube through both holes, then welded it top and bottom. I believe the collars use 3/4" tube for the 1/2" guide pins to slide in. I'll have to measure them to be sure. They might be 5/8". Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of David Paulsen Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle - Weld or Drill I'm about to rig my axle the way Michael Cuy did using a bolt protruding downward from the axle through a tube to prevent the axle from rolling and as a safety catch in case of a failed bungie. I would like to use a couple of long hardened steel 5/16" bolts. I have two questions. Are the 5/16" bolts too skinny for the job? And, which would be best - welding the bolts to the bottom of the axle or just drilling clean through the axle and securing the bolt with nuts? I'm afraid that a weld would just break under pressure and, on the other hand, that drilling a 5/16" hole though my axle would weaken the axle. Thanks - Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 24, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol For Sale---- $600
d.com> This is a nice one: http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=45083 Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 24, 2004
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving!
I remember my first Thanksgiving away from family as a 19 year old machinegunner in Vietnam many years ago. That was a very lonely experience eating cold C-rations from a can in SE Asia. It's really not much different today for anyone serving in foreign land today. Or for service men and women who are not away but on US soil and who wont be home on-leave because they have important jobs they are doing tomorrow at their naval bases, forts, air bases or other military installations. These are the folks who are preserving our freedoms. Let's be thankful of all our service members, sacrificing a favorite holiday for all of us. Turkey MREs can't compare to what comes out of our own ovens (or fryers) at this time of year. If you offer thanks at your meal as many of us do, remember these American's who will be wearing the uniform tomorrow, as we sit down at our tables, in the comfort of our warm homes, with family and friends. S.B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol For Sale---- $600
Date: Nov 24, 2004
ohhhhh THAT IS SO TEMPTING!!! like I need another 1/4 scale bird!! sheeeesh! Good looking plane! ;) DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol For Sale---- $600 > > This is a nice one: > > http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=45083 > > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hill" <jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: flying wires
Date: Nov 24, 2004
DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Carmen" <jcar(at)nefcom.net>
Subject: HTD
Date: Nov 24, 2004
Happy Turkey Day all ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB
Date: Nov 24, 2004
Things are really happening on my project. Reserved NX799DB. Getting hard to find a good number! Just posted some photos of some of the more interesting parts. pictures(at)matronics.com NX799DB is going to be Ford powered and very "thirties". Using wooden cabanes and lift struts, big "clincher" tires and a skid. Will be looking for some property I can use as a grass strip south of Cincinatti so nobody can watch me learn to land this thing!! Between now and Brodhead I'm getting married and moving, think I can make it? First time i've posted photos so I hope I did it right. Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 24, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving!
Hey SB, I remember the Thanksgiving day 1971, Secter Oscar Eight, had some very fine LURP rations, of course mixed with some iodine flavored jungle stream water from Laos. Didn't have time to be thankful that day, but we all got back safe and sound. I have, and always will have lots of respect for our service men serving in combat in foreign lands. Holidays were always lonely times and we at home need to remember the sacrifice that they have to suffer for the betterment of us all. Happy Thanksgiving to all and especially to our service men serving to keep democrecy free. Doc --- N321TX(at)wmconnect.com wrote: > I remember my first Thanksgiving away from family as > a 19 year old > machinegunner in Vietnam many years ago. That was a > very lonely experience eating cold > C-rations from a can in SE Asia. It's really not > much different today for > anyone serving in foreign land today. Or for service > men and women who are not away > but on US soil and who wont be home on-leave because > they have important jobs > they are doing tomorrow at their naval bases, forts, > air bases or other > military installations. These are the folks who are > preserving our freedoms. > > Let's be thankful of all our service members, > sacrificing a favorite holiday > for all of us. Turkey MREs can't compare to what > comes out of our own ovens > (or fryers) at this time of year. If you offer > thanks at your meal as many of us > do, remember these American's who will be wearing > the uniform tomorrow, as > we sit down at our tables, in the comfort of our > warm homes, with family and > friends. > > S.B. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matt Lansford" <lansford(at)rgv.rr.com>
Subject: Re: NX41CC is down
Date: Nov 24, 2004
So you are on this list too?? :) Sorry to hear about the incident! Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX41CC is down > > > Howdy, low and slow fliers; > > I'm sure someone will pick up on this sooner or later, so here's the > official NTSB incident report: > > http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/M_1112_N.txt > > My instructor, Charlie Avaritt, was at the controls (solo), approx. 500' > AGL, when carb ice caused the engine to begin running rough. Conditions ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 11/23/04
Date: Nov 24, 2004
Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Blame Corky if you think this post is not Pietenpol specific enough because he told you I would fill you in. As you know I stopped to visit him in Shreveport and Jim Markle in Plano on the way from Winslow AZ to Naples FL. I won't bore you with all the exciting details of the adventure. Just a couple of points that I hope are helpful to any Pieters planning to do some Xcountry flying. We left Winslow mid-morning and planned to land at Santa Rosa NM for gas. Our plan worked, sort of. We landed and all we could find was sagebrush, red mud and paper signs that said "If you want gas call City Hall or the Police..." Fortunately we had a cell phone because there was none to be found. They said they would come out and meet us. We finally saw some life and flagged down a car coming out of a hangar (a banker who stored bank records in the hangar) and he pointed us to where the gas was. It took about an hour before the employees showed up. On this stop the delay didn't hurt because we were grounded by weather 20 miles ahead so we rode into town with them and spent the night. The next day we headed toward Texas and about 40 miles of our planned gas stop at Jacksboro we ran out of holes in the coulds and went under. We ran along at 2200' to Jacksboro where they had self fueling. When we landed a fellow pilot standing next to his aircoupe(sp) told us the pump didn't work, that he had been there for 4 days waiting for weather to clear and that he had gotten someone to come out from town with mogas. We called for mogas but were told that the fellow who could accomplish that was visiting his mother for the afternoon. We flew about 30 miles to the next airport and fueled without incident. We were then in very marginal VFR conditions and barely made it to Plano to visit with Jim. We had no problem with fuel at Shreveport or any of the other airports. Here is the problem to consider. If you stop at towered fields during working hours weekday you will be assured of getting fuel (and a very high bill more than likely). This is not the kind of place I like to land in my Pietenpol. I like grass and/or out of the way funky airports, preferably with self fueling. The price is better and usually the people are very friendly. However, you run the risk of sometimes being surprised. On one XC I called unicom to announce our landing and need for gas (not a self fueling field) and actually saw them leave 10 minutes early as we were in the pattern. Had to fly to the next airport. Fortunately this was in a Cessna 140 which had enough gas to make it. Why is this important? Pietenpols don't have that much gas to begin with. Land with minimumes and you might be spending the night because you don't have the option to fly to the next airport. I could tell a lot more about the trip, but let it be known that I am very thankful we got through TX and LA when we did. Now, I am off Friday to NC to bring back a Piper J-3. Tough job but someone has to do it. Then it will really be back to Piet building. Ted ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "john s" <smoyer98(at)snip.net>
Subject: Re: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB
Date: Nov 25, 2004
How I can view photos posted on this site? When I click on the links I've been able to find, the info only describes how to submit photos. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. John S ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 6:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB Things are really happening on my project. Reserved NX799DB. Getting hard to find a good number! Just posted some photos of some of the more interesting parts. pictures(at)matronics.com NX799DB is going to be Ford powered and very "thirties". Using wooden cabanes and lift struts, big "clincher" tires and a skid. Will be looking for some property I can use as a grass strip south of Cincinatti so nobody can watch me learn to land this thing!! Between now and Brodhead I'm getting married and moving, think I can make it? First time i've posted photos so I hope I did it right. Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hill" <jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: cables
Date: Nov 25, 2004
DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 25, 2004
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving!
This is probably going to be the first Thanksgiving that I won't doze off early tonight, filled with turkey dinner, because when we get home from sister-in-law's house later tonight, I will be heading for the basement to begin joining the two fuselage side frames into a real fuselage. Won't be long and I'll be able to sit in 'er and make engine noises! (Yes, I'll be able to get the fuse out of the basement -- there's a nice big door straight outside! The wings will have to be assembled in the garage whenever spring arrives here in the "Great Northern.") And in the spirit of the day, many thanks to Matt Dralle for this site and many thanks to all who have shared their tips, advice and wisdom... Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2004
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: cables
I've heard this more than once...galvanized is much better, they start to rust letting you know they are needing replacment. not as brittle..and they break one strand at a time Del Jeff Hill wrote: is for you tech guys. Is there a long term fatigue problem with stainless cables? I know of a flybaby that crashed when a flying wire - stainless steel - broke due to fatigue after a few years. So much for inspections and pre-flt checks. Is it better to use galvanized for cables exposed to the slipstream? Jeff in sunny Texas Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 25, 2004
Subject: Re: cables
Jeff, I used galvanized cables throughout. Stainless, I believe, is reserved for straight cable applications, not around pulleys. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: cables
My understanding was that you use stainless only when necessitated by environment. Like seaplanes in salt water. I take this to mean, as Del stated, that galvanized has superior material properties and that it is easier to see problems before they become life threatening. The field I will be flying out of is 100 yards off the Pacific ocean. None of the planes here ( Tiger Moth through Harvard to Lancair and RV's) have stainless wire in them. Ditto for the nearest airport, 1/2 mile off the ocean. Also don't forget that all your bolts and brackets etc. are in the same environment. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cables > > Jeff, > I used galvanized cables throughout. Stainless, I believe, is reserved for > straight cable applications, not around pulleys. > > Chuck G. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB
<005d01c4d2fe$7ea6c000$c245ccd1@e3r1w8> Try this and scroll down as the photo links don't appear until you do so. This page lists all the photos posted from Oct 1999 ( That was in the last century!). Douwe's pics haven't appeared so far though. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ Remember, when you sit down to that turkey, that you are, or plan to be, flying a Pietenpol. :-) :-) :-) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB How I can view photos posted on this site? When I click on the links I've been able to find, the info only describes how to submit photos. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. John S ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2004
From: Mike Luther <luther(at)gci.net>
Subject: Re: cables
Hi Jeff; I just finished reading ac43131b concerning cables and the NTSB reports for the Fly Baby and a web site concerning the Fly Baby's wing failure concerns. No, I am not going to replace my Piet's stainless steel cables with galvanized cables. If a fellow wants to save a few dollars and use galvanized, ok, but I do not buy into this particular safety- issue discussion at all. Mike Luther Jeff Hill wrote: > Well I'll try this again. This is for you tech guys. Is there a long > term fatigue problem with stainless cables? I know of a flybaby that > crashed when a flying wire - stainless steel - broke due to fatigue > after a few years. So much for inspections and pre-flt checks. Is it > better to use galvanized for cables exposed to the slipstream? > > Jeff in sunny Texas > Matronics Forums. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "john s" <smoyer98(at)snip.net>
<008601c4d386$fb13be30$4e705118@dawsonaviation>
Subject: Re: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB
Date: Nov 26, 2004
Jim and Cliff: Thanks for the instruction. I'm really enjoying the photos. John S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 2:10 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB Try this and scroll down as the photo links don't appear until you do so. This page lists all the photos posted from Oct 1999 ( That was in the last century!). Douwe's pics haven't appeared so far though. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ Remember, when you sit down to that turkey, that you are, or plan to be, flying a Pietenpol. :-) :-) :-) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douwe's construction photos NX799DB How I can view photos posted on this site? When I click on the links I've been able to find, the info only describes how to submit photos. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. John S ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Prange Larry J PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil>
Subject: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 26, 2004
Hi Gang! Years ago, Mike Cuy started a thread by saying that he had done an end run around the high cost of using two-part varnishes by applying Minwax Helmsman urethane varnish to his structure. Mike then applied a light coat of Dupont 222S sanding sealer over that and waited two months for the stuff to cure before covering. He said that the combination of products and the cure time provided resistance to the MEK used in the covering materials. Great! Save a zillion dollars! I'm for that! Later in the same thread someone asked Mike if the Dupont 222S step was necessary. He said that he didn't know because he hadn't tried it that way. So, therein lies my question. Has anybody experimented with using Minwax Helmsman urethane varnish (or similar) by itself and let it cure for months before covering? Did it resist the MEK? What was your process? What's the current knowledge in this subject? Does anyone know if POR-15 Blackcote will resist MEK after it has had months to cure? Larry Prange - Getting ready to cover, in the rain, on the Olympic Peninsula .. . . NX1929A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Larry--- Yes sir, the Dupont 222S sanding sealer I got at the auto paint store worked well but I'm not sure how it would have worked had I not used it or if I had not let it cure as long. You may only have to wait a few days or less, after spraying the 222S over the airframe. I think the big factor is that I had let my wings and fuse sit for a while before spraying with the sealer and then the MEK didn't attack the varnish. I do know that I rushed my center section in varnish AND in applying the sanding sealer and whala, when I tried to cover the MEK softened the varnish so I had to backup, let the center section dry in the house a few days in a warm bedroom (unused room) and then re-applied the sealer, let it sit for a day, then the MEK didn't attack the varnish. Hope this helps, Mike C. > > >Hi Gang! > >Years ago, Mike Cuy started a thread by saying that he had done an end run >around the high cost of using two-part varnishes by applying Minwax Helmsman >urethane varnish to his structure. Mike then applied a light coat of Dupont >222S sanding sealer over that and waited two months for the stuff to cure >before covering. He said that the combination of products and the cure time >provided resistance to the MEK used in the covering materials. Great! Save >a zillion dollars! I'm for that! Later in the same thread someone asked >Mike if the Dupont 222S step was necessary. He said that he didn't know >because he hadn't tried it that way. So, therein lies my question. Has >anybody experimented with using Minwax Helmsman urethane varnish (or >similar) by itself and let it cure for months before covering? Did it >resist the MEK? What was your process? What's the current knowledge in >this subject? > >Does anyone know if POR-15 Blackcote will resist MEK after it has had months >to cure? > >Larry Prange - Getting ready to cover, in the rain, on the Olympic Peninsula >.. . . >NX1929A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: dain't cheap----- Ping Pong Balls
0.37 FORGED_QUALCOMM_TAGS QUALCOMM mailers can't send HTML in this format Corky-- I found a few for you. My wings are full of them for long overwater flights:) Mike C. Lion Bulk 144 practice balls 1d78a51.jpg1d78aca.jpg Practice balls without logo printing. Box of 144 ping pong balls. White or yellow. $28.99/Case1d78b1a.jpg http://www.ballsonline.com/ or------ PING-PONG.COM 40mm box of 144 US$46.95 Price: US$46.95 CAN$56.34 Weight: 3.70 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2004
From: Mike Luther <luther(at)gci.net>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Larry: How about this for an idea: Urethane varnish all of the wooden surfaces that don't touch the covering and then brush on the two part Epoxy varnish to the surfaces that touch the covering. Then you will be ready to cover in one week assuming you have maintained the proper temperature and humidity ( according to the Poly-Fiber manual.) That was the best compromise that I could come up with that saved some money, time and worry about the covering process. Mike Luther covering in Anchorage, Alaska NX1933M Prange Larry J PSNS wrote: > > Hi Gang! > > Years ago, Mike Cuy started a thread by saying that he had done an end run > around the high cost of using two-part varnishes by applying Minwax Helmsman > urethane varnish to his structure. Mike then applied a light coat of Dupont > 222S sanding sealer over that and waited two months for the stuff to cure > before covering. He said that the combination of products and the cure time > provided resistance to the MEK used in the covering materials. Great! Save > a zillion dollars! I'm for that! Later in the same thread someone asked > Mike if the Dupont 222S step was necessary. He said that he didn't know > because he hadn't tried it that way. So, therein lies my question. Has > anybody experimented with using Minwax Helmsman urethane varnish (or > similar) by itself and let it cure for months before covering? Did it > resist the MEK? What was your process? What's the current knowledge in > this subject? > > Does anyone know if POR-15 Blackcote will resist MEK after it has had months > to cure? > > Larry Prange - Getting ready to cover, in the rain, on the Olympic Peninsula > .. . . > NX1929A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 26, 2004
Subject: Buoyancy
Pieters, I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would anyone in the know please send me that figure. Corky, on the bayou ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
Date: Nov 26, 2004
How much rain have you been getting????? ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy Pieters, I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would anyone in the know please send me that figure. Corky, on the bayou ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
Date: Nov 26, 2004
well it depends on the salt concentration. You need the specific gravity of salt water... about 1.03 now you need to know the weight of a gallon of water - 8.35lbs. so multiply the weight of 1 gal of water by the specific gravity of saltwater to get how much weight can be supported by a gallon jug in salt water roughly 8.6lb this will only make an 8.6lb weight neutrally buoyant. You'd need more volume of air in the bouy (the milk jug) to make something rise and/or stay on top of the surface of the water. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy Pieters, I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would anyone in the know please send me that figure. Corky, on the bayou ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
Date: Nov 26, 2004
another point of interest is that 82 one gallon milk jugs filled with air will keep a typical empty weight Piet from sinking DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy Pieters, I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would anyone in the know please send me that figure. Corky, on the bayou ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 26, 2004
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
Thanks DJ and Jim. Now I can proceed with my planning ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2004
Subject: [ Douwe Blumberg ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Douwe Blumberg Lists: Pietenpol-List Subject: Construction Photos of NX799DB http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/douweblumberg@earthlink.net.11.26.2004/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
<004d01c4d42c$bf087ab0$0100a8c0@Desktop> That's a lot of jugs! How much do the girls weigh? Clif PS. How long can they tread water? Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy another point of interest is that 82 one gallon milk jugs filled with air will keep a typical empty weight Piet from sinking DJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2004
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
>Thanks DJ and Jim. Now I can proceed with my planning Sounds like Corky is pulling a fast one on us again. If I remember correctly, last time it was foam packing peanuts, wasn't it? (That's quite a few years back for you new guys on the list). Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. Kip Gardner (emerging briefly from list hibernation) -- North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 27, 2004
Subject: Pin pong balls
Remember the tale about Douglas Bader -- he filled his artificial legs with ping pong balls, figuring that if he had to bail out of his Spit into the English Channel or North Sea, they'd save his life. First time up, however, at high altitude the ping pong balls began exploding with very loud pops. Bader thought he was under attack! Great story! A Piet might be able to take on an old "Fokker," but not a Messerschmidt... Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Extra straight axle retaining ring material....
Date: Nov 27, 2004
0.07 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format 0.00 DRUGS_MUSCLE Refers to a muscle relaxant I just ordered some 1.5" ID X .20"WallThickness 6061 aluminum tubing. I'm going to cut it up into .5" wide rings to bolt on the axle on each side of the wheels.....sort of like the original straight axle plans except that mine will not have a flange..... I ordered a 12" piece and even after my usual 2-3 mistakes will have some left over for at least a few Piets.... If anyone is interested in some of what I have leftover, let me know. Jim in Plano..... (I've attached a VERY small picture of the part (with two bolts holding it on) that I'm referring to in case my description isn't clear....it's low resolution so those of you with dialup should not have a problem.....) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2004
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Tail feather attachment question
Have a couple questions about the attachment of the horz stab and fin to the fuselage using the 4 metal fittings above and below the stabilizer. - The two bottom fittings are attached to each other with two horizontal bolts through the fuselage tailpost, however the fuselage sides are angled. Did you guys makes 4 wedged shaped washers out of something so the bolt head and nut seat flat or add 2 wood wedges for the fittings to sit on? - If the holes are drilled in the stab and fin for these fittings and then I cover and paint the stab and fin, then the holes in the fittings will no longer line up with the holes in the stab, fin, and fuselage correct? Should I drill after covering (don't like that idea), or leave a 1/16" or so gap between the fitting and wood when I mark where to drill? Thanks guys -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Tail feather attachment question
Date: Nov 27, 2004
Rick, It was a few years back, but if I remember right,,,,,I did all of my 4130 bending in a vise that had a radius on the top edges. If you angle slightly the bracket to be bent, you get one that lays straight and flat under the horz.stab. and also follows the angled tail post vertically. Experiment on scrap first. All of my brackets on the whole plane were fit dry, then using a very sharp "prick" punch, gave each of them a number on the back, and noted on the print. All this made for a nice fit of all brackets after the painting and up to a few years had passed. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail feather attachment question > > Have a couple questions about the attachment of the horz stab and fin > to the fuselage using the 4 metal fittings above and below the > stabilizer. > > - The two bottom fittings are attached to each other with two > horizontal bolts through the fuselage tailpost, however the fuselage > sides are angled. Did you guys makes 4 wedged shaped washers out of > something so the bolt head and nut seat flat or add 2 wood wedges for > the fittings to sit on? > > - If the holes are drilled in the stab and fin for these fittings and > then I cover and paint the stab and fin, then the holes in the > fittings will no longer line up with the holes in the stab, fin, and > fuselage correct? Should I drill after covering (don't like that > idea), or leave a 1/16" or so gap between the fitting and wood when I > mark where to drill? > > Thanks guys > > -- > Rick Holland > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2004
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Lister Comments - Please Support The Lists
Dear Listers, Wow! People have been including some very nice comments along with their Contributions lately! I've included another set of below and will send another set in a couple of days. Guys, I really appreciate your kind words and support. In the last few days, the contributions have really started to come in and its looking like support this year may slightly surpass last year's. There's still a few days left in this year's Fund Raiser, so if you've been waiting until the last minute to make your Contribution, now's the time! Make Your Contribution Today: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ----------------- More of What Listers Are Saying... -------------------- Every morning 5:30 am, coffee and the "List". It's how I start my day. Robert G. The list is still my favorite aviation magazine. Roger H. Great resource, without the distraction of pop ups and ads! Douglas D. I look forward to my daily list reading almost as much as my coffee! Hal K. Great service! Aaron G. I have made some great friends, because of it! Bob D. Great resource!! Richard S. I learn something of value every time I read the messages. Stan S. Great list! Thomas E. Now that I am close to completion of my [homebuilt], I look back and wonder how I could ever have made it this far without [the Lists]. Jeff O. Outstanding site and administration. Anthony S. Great forum for our projects. Darrel M. I have become a List Addict! George M. A very helpful resource for me. Dennis K. Great for staying up on the latest. Forrest L. Valuable benefit for the users. George A. Great tool for all [builders]. Tony M. Can't tell you how much I appreciate the archives. Ken B. I really enjoy the sharing of information and the "discussions" that come up. Ross S. [The List] reminds us home builders that help is just a few clicks away. Danny W. A great resource! Christopher S. Always a pleasure to support this list! Richard W. Thanks for helping all of us build better aircraft. John P. Great list(s)for data, info and making friends. John S. [The] List has helped me much with my building process. Raimo T. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FTLovley(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 27, 2004
Subject: Re: Tail feather attachment question
When Bernard built the airplanes, the fittings for the stab, fin, wires, etc, were attached with soft iron rivets and the fittings were attached to the wood below the fabric. The surface was then covered over the fittings, and they didn't show. The hard wire (music wire) tail brace wires were also made and attached to the fin fittings before riveting to the fin, and then the fin was covered. That way he didn't have to use clevis' to attach the brace wires...just one of the many ways he managed to leave things off that he didn't need and keep the airplane light and cheaper to build. Forrest Lovley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 27, 2004
I have used clear, satin Minwax Poluurethane varnish exclusively on the fuse and wing with the Stitts process and have experienced no difficulty with lifting...My $.02..Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prange Larry J PSNS" <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Alternatives > > Hi Gang! > > Years ago, Mike Cuy started a thread by saying that he had done an end run > around the high cost of using two-part varnishes by applying Minwax Helmsman > urethane varnish to his structure. Mike then applied a light coat of Dupont > 222S sanding sealer over that and waited two months for the stuff to cure > before covering. He said that the combination of products and the cure time > provided resistance to the MEK used in the covering materials. Great! Save > a zillion dollars! I'm for that! Later in the same thread someone asked > Mike if the Dupont 222S step was necessary. He said that he didn't know > because he hadn't tried it that way. So, therein lies my question. Has > anybody experimented with using Minwax Helmsman urethane varnish (or > similar) by itself and let it cure for months before covering? Did it > resist the MEK? What was your process? What's the current knowledge in > this subject? > > Does anyone know if POR-15 Blackcote will resist MEK after it has had months > to cure? > > Larry Prange - Getting ready to cover, in the rain, on the Olympic Peninsula > .. . . > NX1929A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 27, 2004
Subject: Re: List Contributors Lagging By 38%...
Mine was in the mail in the form of a check last Tuesday. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Extra straight axle retaining ring material....
Date: Nov 27, 2004
Jim, If you have two left over, I would love to try them. Alex Sloan alexms1(at)comcast.net -------------- Original message -------------- I just ordered some 1.5" ID X .20"WallThickness 6061 aluminum tubing. I'm going to cut it up into .5" wide rings to bolt on the axle on each side of the wheels.....sort of like the original straight axle plans except that mine will not have a flange..... I ordered a 12" piece and even after my usual 2-3 mistakes will have some left over for at least a few Piets.... If anyone is interested in some of what I have leftover, let me know. Jim in Plano..... (I've attached a VERY small picture of the part (with two bolts holding it on) that I'm referring to in case my description isn't clear....it's low resolution so those of you with dialup should not have a problem.....) Jim, If you have two left over, I would love to try them. Alex Sloan alexms1(at)comcast.net
-------------- Original message -------------- I just ordered some 1.5" ID X .20"WallThickness 6061 aluminum tubing. I'm going to cut it up into .5" wide rings to bolt on the axle on each side of the wheels.....sort of like the original straight axle plans except that mine will not havea flange..... I ordered a 12" piece and even after my usual 2-3 mistakes will have some left over for at least a few Piets.... If anyone is interested in some of what I have leftover, let me know. Jim in Plano..... (I've attached a VERY small picture of the part (withtwo bolts holding it on)that I'm referring to in case my description isn't clear....it's low resolution so those of you with dialup should not have a problem.....) From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Extra straight axle retaining ring material.... 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From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 27, 2004
Subject: Re: Bouyancy
Guys, To add a (slightly) serious note here, don't forget that the principal building material in the Piet is bouyant, too...maybe it will only take ten or twenty girls..er..wait a minute..tenor twenty jugs to keep the plane afloat. ;>) Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Bouyancy
Date: Nov 27, 2004
I bought a box of 100 plastic balls for a kids' ball pit that were about 3 inches around for like $20 at the local Toys-R-Us a couple years ago. Durable, a bit squishy, and technicolor too. Buy an inflatable kid's pool and you have a cheap, portable indoor ball pit. Buy a bunch of jello you can... er, nevermind... I can just see it now... Corky re-creating the flight of the Spruce Goose in time for the new Howard Hughes movie, flying 2 feet over the bayou :) Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: ADonJr(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 7:04 PM Subject: [piet] Pietenpol-List: Re: Bouyancy Guys, To add a (slightly) serious note here, don't forget that the principal building material in the Piet is bouyant, too...maybe it will only take ten or twenty girls..er..wait a minute..tenor twenty jugs to keep the plane afloat. ;>) Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
I used Ace Spar Varnish Gloss (pt #16375) for everything, including the prop. No problem with the covering material lifting the varnish. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Well, my new Pietenpol, "Icarus Plummet", has joined the elite group of Corky's (now Oscar's) Piet and John's "Mountain Piet". I had a forced landing yesterday morning which terminated in a groundloop and minor damage to the airplane. I had gone up for a photo shoot for an article in "Private Pilot"magazine on my airplane. I was flying formation with an Aviat Husky photo plane (they were flying with the door open and were nearly as cold as I was in the 27 air) over Jordan Lake, a 14,000 acre lake just west of Raleigh, NC. After we finished shooting the pictures over Jordan Lake we were heading back to Cox Field, where my plane is based. Shortly after reaching the shoreline I had a partial power failure. The engine suddenly began running roughly and only turning about 1300 - 1400 RPM. Not a total failure, but the best I could maintain was about a 400 fpm descent. I was already carrying carb heat because I had picked up some carb ice. I tried turning carb heat off, but no change. Since I was only at 1300' MSL when it happened it didn't give me many options. I called the Husky on the radio and told them I had engine trouble and was going down. I didn't think I could make it to Cox so I turned toward US 64 with the goal of landing at Deck Field, a 1300' private strip just south of US 64. By the time I reached US 64 I was down to about 200' AGL and was still two miles from Deck Field, and about 6 miles from Cox. I realized my options were down to one - land it on the highway. Wind was out of the east so I was at least landing into the wind. The Pietenpol's glide ratio is somewhere between that of a brick and a bowling ball. I normally carry quite a bit of power through the landing to give it a normal flare. That power was not available now. The engine was running slower and slower and finally quit just before I touched down. I was checking for traffic (4 wheel type) and found a pickup just below and slightly ahead of me. I slowed it up slightly and let him get ahead of me, then put the nose down to keep it flying. It touched down pretty hard on the mains and bounced. I recovered, flared it and set it down 3-point and thought I had it made. It rolled out normally for a few seconds, slowing to about 15-20 mph, when the right wing began to dip. I instinctively applied left aileron, then as it began to veer to the right I had full left rudder and was trying to find the left heel brake when it went off the road to the right and dove into a ditch, where it groundlooped. I was unhurt, and climbed out of the cockpit after shutting off the fuel, the mags and the master switch. It could have been a lot worse. If the engine had quit while I was out over the lake it would have been a pretty cold swim home. If I had not been close to Hwy 64 (remember, by the time I got over the highway I was already down to just a couple hundred feet), I would probably have had to put it in the trees and certainly would have totalled the airplane, and probably gotten hurt pretty badly. I also managed to glide down to the highway over one set of power lines and under a second set (I never saw either one). So I have a lot to be thankful for this Thanksgiving weekend, even though my plane was wrecked. Inspection revealed the axle had broken just inboard of the right wheel (which I think happened due to the hard landing and caused the groundloop) and the wheel was detached from the airframe, although it was still attached by the brakeline. The fracture was right at the guide pin which I'm sure added quite a bit of stress concentration. Damage was relatively minor. In addition to the broken axle, the horizontal stabilizer was broken in two places on the right side, although the elevator appears to be OK. The right aileron was damaged near the tip (I still had full left aileron in when the wing tip hit the ditch) and the tailwheel was sheared off. None of the main structure appears to be damaged (a tribute to the rugged design of the Pietenpol). I should be able to have all the repairs done and have it flying again within 6 months or so. Of course, first I've got to figure out what happened to the engine to cause all this. I'll try to post some pictures of my wounded Piet tomorrow. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" <TWINBOOM(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Jack, Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will be in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble as well when you can. Thanks, Doug Blackburn Doug & Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California www.inlandsloperebels.com W W's Conversion Manual 3202, 5782 www.flycorvair.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > I had gone up for a photo shoot for an article in "Private Pilot"magazine on > my airplane. >Of course, first I've got to figure out > what happened to the engine to cause all this. > I'll try to post some pictures of my wounded Piet tomorrow. > Jack Phillips > Raleigh, NC > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Holy cow, Jack! You were fortunate in so many ways. Your story reflects a cool head which may be your best thing to be thankful for. We're all glad you're alive (and warm and dry) to talk about it. Mike Hardaway PS Maybe you should consider changing the name... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > Well, my new Pietenpol, "Icarus Plummet", has joined the elite group of > Corky's (now Oscar's) Piet and John's "Mountain Piet". I had a forced > landing yesterday morning which terminated in a groundloop and minor damage > to the airplane. > [snip] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Jack, Sorry about your tough luck. But you walked away. Better to have to walk away then to have to swim away! Did you say you are running an A-65? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > Well, my new Pietenpol, "Icarus Plummet", has joined the elite group of ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Doug, We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until I have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all his fault. I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and axle). I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I can pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of inadequate carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. The wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to see if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either that or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to a few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and cause the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, snapping the axle in two. As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can keep someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same problems. And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS BLACKBURN Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted Jack, Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will be in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble as well when you can. Thanks, Doug Blackburn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Was the guide tube welded TO the bottom or THRU the bottom of the axle? Several of us are currently working on straight axles and some details would sure be appreciated. My EAA tech counselor told me to drill up thru the bottom of the axle and weld ONLY on the top surface. Sorry to belabor the issue but hopefully we can benefit from an already very sad situation. I'm really sorry. Thanks JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > Doug, > > We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do > them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until > I > have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all > his fault. > > I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and > axle). > > I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I can > pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of > inadequate > carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. > The > wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this > morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to see > if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I > pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either that > or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. > > As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide > pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to > a > few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which > probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable > because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing > yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and cause > the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, > snapping the axle in two. > > As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can keep > someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same > problems. > > And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS > BLACKBURN > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > > Jack, > Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will > be > in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble > as > well when you can. > Thanks, > > Doug Blackburn > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Oops, sorry. I found the axle details in the archive..... Again, VERY sorry to hear but I agree with everyone else, I'm VERY glad you're ok. JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > Was the guide tube welded TO the bottom or THRU the bottom of the axle? > Several of us are currently working on straight axles and some details > would sure be appreciated. > > My EAA tech counselor told me to drill up thru the bottom of the axle and > weld ONLY on the top surface. > > Sorry to belabor the issue but hopefully we can benefit from an already > very sad situation. > > I'm really sorry. > > Thanks > JM > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:02 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > >> >> >> Doug, >> >> We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do >> them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until >> I >> have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all >> his fault. >> >> I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and >> axle). >> >> I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I >> can >> pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of >> inadequate >> carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. >> The >> wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this >> morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to >> see >> if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I >> pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either >> that >> or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. >> >> As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide >> pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to >> a >> few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which >> probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable >> because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing >> yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and >> cause >> the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, >> snapping the axle in two. >> >> As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can >> keep >> someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same >> problems. >> >> And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. >> >> Jack >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS >> BLACKBURN >> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted >> >> >> >> Jack, >> Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will >> be >> in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble >> as >> well when you can. >> Thanks, >> >> Doug Blackburn >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stacy Clark" <stacy@unicom-alaska.com>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Jack, Sorry to hear about your plane. Nice job on getting down though. The powerlines reminds me of a time when I jumped off a 8' fence as a kid. I landed just fine and started to walk away...but couldn't. I looked behind me to see what was holding me up only to find metal fence stake (those green ones with the white tips) had gone through the bottom of my pants, directly between my cheeks and out the top of my pants. Like you, I never saw it or felt it. Someone was definately watching over me. I figure an 1/8" closer or so and I would have landed vertically right on my tailbone from 8' above. Good to see you're okay. Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 28, 2004
Subject: Carb Heat
Pieters, As a very interested and concerned participant in these A-65 Piet incidents I recommend strongly that we call upon the brains, experienced and gifted on this list to try and design a carb heat system for an A-65 to replace the present heat muff marketed with the 7 AC stacks. I wish I could help but this is not my line of work. I feel very guilty that a Piet I completed has suffered this failure fate without any prior knowledge as to this weakness. My test pilot Edwin Johnson voiced his concern several times during the test period that he was a bit concerned that the RPM drop when carb heat was applied seem too small. I removed the muff and added more surface metal inside which seemed to add more Rpm drop. I hope someone with the knowledge and skill in this area can come up with a better exhaust system and a hotter air system. I'll forget about the ping pong balls until this problem is solved. Praise the Lord from whom all blessings flow. 2 down and nobody hurt. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Jack, I'm sorry to hear about the accident, but very thankful that no one was hurt. I have "totaled" out 6 airplanes in my over 30 some odd years of flying and I know of the sad feeling you get after all the dust has settled down and you have had some time to reflect. My last one, the beloved Bird biplane, swallowed an intake valve over Mark Twain Lake in northern MO. I could only stretch a glide to a very small field on a ridge above the lake. I got to the field with about 200' altitude and noticed a deep ravine running across the field. I made a quick left downwind and set up for a landing, holding the plane off until I cleared the ravine. I then noticed the ground sloping steeply away from me and directly ahead was a tree-line. I still had flying speed and I thought the wheels would never make contact with the ground. Finally they touched and as soon as they did, I intentionally ground-looped the plane to keep from hitting the tree-line. Both lower wings slapped the ground and the main gear broke and the plane slid backwards for a short distance, but it finally came to a stop and I quickley got my riders out of the front cockpit. There was no fire and no one was hurt or even shaken up. The plane was totaled and is being restored. That was my last barnstorming flight. There just weren't any more biplanes in my price range so I was out of business. You will have your plane repaired and flying again and this will all be only a bad footnote. Best of luck and glad you weren't hurt. Doc > > > > > > > > Click on the > this > by the > Admin. > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 28, 2004
This afternoon I finally got Icarus Plummet back into my basement and started looking through the damage. I can say with certainty that the axle broke at the guide pin which had been welded top and bottom in a hole drilled through the axle. The axle was a tube of 1-1/2" O.D. x .120" wall 4130 chromoly. It is obvious that a crack started at the weld on the bottom of the axle and had propogated about 1/2" before the accident. The hard impact caused the axle to crack further, slowly giving way and causing the wing droop that I had noticed after landing. Once the plane got in the ditch and groundlooped, the side loads finished the job and ripped the end of the axle with the wheel off. The good news is that even with the extreme side loads of a full blown ground loop, my custom 6" wide hub wire wheels didn't bend or break. Both wheels still roll true and don't show any signs of damage. I will definitely make the axle differently this next time. I think welding the guide pins only at the top makes good sense. That weld sees little loading itself, but the weld in tension on the bottom of the axle has a large potential to crack, and if it does crack, the crack is very difficult to detect because it is right underneath the bungee cords. I may try to sleeve the axle in that area and reinforce it because it is such a high stress area. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted Was the guide tube welded TO the bottom or THRU the bottom of the axle? Several of us are currently working on straight axles and some details would sure be appreciated. My EAA tech counselor told me to drill up thru the bottom of the axle and weld ONLY on the top surface. Sorry to belabor the issue but hopefully we can benefit from an already very sad situation. I'm really sorry. Thanks JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > Doug, > > We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do > them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until > I > have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all > his fault. > > I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and > axle). > > I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I can > pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of > inadequate > carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. > The > wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this > morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to see > if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I > pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either that > or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. > > As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide > pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to > a > few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which > probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable > because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing > yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and cause > the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, > snapping the axle in two. > > As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can keep > someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same > problems. > > And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS > BLACKBURN > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > > > Jack, > Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will > be > in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble > as > well when you can. > Thanks, > > Doug Blackburn > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
Date: Nov 26, 2004
Anybody know where I can get 82 one gallon jugs cheap? ;>) Bert (whose inspection is scheduled for 3 weekend in December.) Cross your fingers. ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy another point of interest is that 82 one gallon milk jugs filled with air will keep a typical empty weight Piet from sinking DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy Pieters, I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would anyone in the know please send me that figure. Corky, on the bayou ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2004
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Buoyancy
<004d01c4d42c$bf087ab0$0100a8c0@Desktop> <000001c4d5bc$49783880$6401a8c0@youruzmpkxfw5y> Recycle bin at the dump? Cow juice comes in them around here. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 Thinking about pulling his Piet project off of for sale and back into building At 10:17 PM 11/26/2004, you wrote: >Anybody know where I can get 82 one gallon jugs cheap? ;>) > >Bert (whose inspection is scheduled for 3 weekend in December.) Cross >your fingers. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:djv(at)imagedv.com>DJ Vegh >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:56 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy > >another point of interest is that 82 one gallon milk jugs filled with air >will keep a typical empty weight Piet from sinking > >DJ >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:Isablcorky(at)aol.com>Isablcorky(at)aol.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:29 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy > >Pieters, > >I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be >supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would >anyone in the know please send me that figure. > >Corky, on the bayou > > >--- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2004
From: Ed Smith <lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
Just a couple of thoughts here, but just stuffing metal into the muff (steel wool) isn't going to do to much for heat transfer to the intake air. I have seen examples of heat exchangers (that's what a heat muff is) where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to it. It increases the surface area of the metal that is exposed to air and has a much better transfer of heat to the exposed surfaces due to being welded and in intimate contact with the exhaust tubing rather than something lying against it. Similar principle to a car radiator in reverse. Instead of loosing heat, we want to transfer it to the intake air. The other thing is as Jack has guessed, loose material in the muff can and will migrate to the point that it will cause a restriction in the intake air to the extent that a power loss is inevitable. Corky, when you added your metal, was it welded to the tubing or installed in such a way that it would not move but maintained contact with the tubing? I second your blessing, no one hurt is the most important thing. A friend told me once, use the engine to save the plane, but failing that, use the plane to save your butt. At 02:05 PM 11/28/2004, you wrote: >Pieters, > >As a very interested and concerned participant in these A-65 Piet >incidents I recommend strongly that we call upon the brains, experienced >and gifted on this list to try and design a carb heat system for an A-65 >to replace the present heat muff marketed with the 7 AC stacks. I wish I >could help but this is not my line of work. I feel very guilty that a Piet >I completed has suffered this failure fate without any prior knowledge as >to this weakness. My test pilot Edwin Johnson voiced his concern several >times during the test period that he was a bit concerned that the RPM drop >when carb heat was applied seem too small. I removed the muff and added >more surface metal inside which seemed to add more Rpm drop. >I hope someone with the knowledge and skill in this area can come up with >a better exhaust system and a hotter air system. I'll forget about the >ping pong balls until this problem is solved. Praise the Lord from whom >all blessings flow. 2 down and nobody hurt. > >Corky L. Edward Smith Boones Mill, VA 24065 lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com (preferred) lesmith_52(at)hotmail.com lesmith218(at)yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Jack, Along with everyone else on the list, I'm Sorry to hear about your plane, but thank God you're all right, and that the plane is certainly repairable. It's a Huge advantage to for everyone to hear input from the actual pilot, and ask questions, instead of the crash investigators, to find out what actually happened. It helps others build a safer airplane. A couple of questions: You said you were already carrying carb heat, because you had picked up some ice. Were you at full power, and saw a slight reduction in rpm, and then put in carb heat ? Was there visible moisture in the air ? What was the humidity ? At those lower temperatures it is my understanding that moisture in the air is low. Did the guy in the truck see you in the rear view mirror, and come back ? Did you find the stainless steel wool in the carb or engine ? Like Corky, I would like to hear more discussion of carb heat design. My heat muff is homemade, but is somewhat similar to the 7 AC stacks, in that it is 3003 aluminum wrap around the two stacks on the right side, however there isn't anything else there to make more surface area. I have about a 50 rpm drop, maybe even a little less, when I add carb heat on my A65. Corky, - How did you make more surface area inside the heat muff ? How much rpm drop do you other guys have ? I hope to hear some input on carb heat from others, too. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/27/04
Hey, Group, I am ready to build the tail surfaces and have a question about the steel fittings. The plans call for 5/8 x 13 gauge steel. The chart says that 13 gauge is .09". Aircraft Spruce sells 5/8 inch strap up to .08" thickness. My understanding is that 4130 is stronger than the mild steel Pietenpol had available. If this is correct, would it be reasonable to use the .08" steel? It involves a considerable savings in labor if it is safe. What say you? Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Jack, glad you're OK. You can always build another plane, it's a bit harder to rebuild the pilot. (We can rebuild him... have the technology...) Sorry to hear of any incident, but you have to keep these things in their proper perspective and be thankful to the big guy upstairs for looking out for us through so many things that by all rights shouldn't have come out so well. Did the photo guys get any shots of your emergency landing? That might make for an interesting story in itself! Mike "Sheep do not so much fly, as plummet" W. Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: <> Ed, I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully setting up the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer muff. Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ? Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/27/04
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Don ...I made my tail hinges from the 14 gauge X 5/8" material from A/C spruce for the exact same reason that you have mentioned with the same reasoning that the 4130 is stronger .. They came out nice and they are way stronger than the spruce spars that they are bolted to...That was before I knew that A/C spruce or Wicks would custom cut the 13ga into strips for a small charge..And before I knew that you can buy ready made aluminum hinges..making the hinges takes a lot of work and time with each hinge having four little pieces plus bending, welding and drilling times 9 hinges...And if I had it to do again I would fit the hinges to the spars before assembling the Stabilizer and elevators ...Hope the input helps but I would be interested in other builder's opinions on the 14 ga hinges....Ed G. in Fl....Just finished my female mold and Ready to lay up my composite 12 gallon cowl tank...Sorry to hear about your plummet Jack...But glad you missed those wires!!! >From: ADonJr(at)aol.com >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/27/04 >Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:53:05 EST > >Hey, Group, > I am ready to build the tail surfaces and have a question about the >steel fittings. The plans call for 5/8 x 13 gauge steel. The chart says >that 13 >gauge is .09". Aircraft Spruce sells 5/8 inch strap up to .08" thickness. >My understanding is that 4130 is stronger than the mild steel Pietenpol >had >available. If this is correct, would it be reasonable to use the .08" >steel? >It involves a considerable savings in labor if it is safe. What say you? > Don Cooley ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Mike Luther <luther(at)gci.net>
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
Hi guys: I know of a couple of ways to get some extra heat from your muff: One way is to stuff your muff with some stainless steel scrub bud pads, like the ones used for doing dishes or another way is to use some door spring and wrap the exhaust pipe before putting on your muff. Mike Luther NX1953M Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, > lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: > > < where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to > it. >> > > Ed, > I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or > heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, > besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the > engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the > welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully setting up > the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing > some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer > muff. > Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ? > > Chuck G. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
Date: Nov 29, 2004
On the carb ice heat muff thing, I recall reading Tony Bingelis suggesting wrapping door springs around the exhaust stacks under the heat muff. Has any one tried this?. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- > > In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, > lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: > > < where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to > it. >> > > Ed, > I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or > heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, > besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the > engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the > welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully setting > up > the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing > some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer > muff. > Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ? > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > On thecarb ice heat muff thing, I recall reading Tony Bingelis suggesting wrapping door springs around the exhaust stacks under the heat muff. Has any one tried this?. Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd(at)aol.com In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: I have seen examples of heat exchangers (that's what a heat muff is) where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to it. Ed, I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully setting up From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted
Chuck, Since you and others have asked HOW I altered the heat muff for better efficiency, honestly I had to stop to remember exactly how I did it. My memory is much like that ole grey mare. That supply house muff for the 7AC has the intake and outlet air flanges opposite the other. Air is free to pass through without picking up much heat from the stacks. I took a piece of sheet metal, SS or alum I don't remember, drilled some holes for the bolts of the muff and tried to block that direct in to out passage so the air flow would pass over more stack. I'll ask Oscar to take a look at the muff to be sure. Anyway, I think we all agree that it's inadequate heating whether flying along the Rio Grande, North Carolina, Colorado or a flight to Beliese. Corky, trying to get the wheels turning on the bayou ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals
Corky & Group-- A small item of BIG importance that some omit in the carb heat setup on Champ-type stacks is a sheet metal triangle that is fixed in between the "Y" of the exhaust stacks prior to the heat muff being installed. This triangle of metal forces the fresh air (from a scoop fixed to the side of the muff) around the stacks and increases the 'travel time' of the air to make sure the temp. is up where you need it. A tab or three can be welded to the stacks to hold this triangle in place. Would not have known this had I not done annuals w/ my partner on our old Champ. I asked Joe what the plate/triangle was for and he explained. Jack-- many thanks are being given here for your safe return to mother earth and a repairable Pietenpol. Also I'm having concerns now about my big idea to keep the axle from turning under braking action. I know my axle is the same wall thickness as Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy as I pirated as much info/ideas from him as possible.....and it's a very thick wall. My guess is approximately 0.20-0.25" thick. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Carb Heat
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Those stainless steel scrub pads are what I used, that I suspect caused my forced landing. I had packed them tightly in the heat muff, but when I checked yesterday they were gone. I will pull the carburetor tonight and expect to find them scrubbing the inside of my carburetor's throat. I would humbly suggest using something else to increase heat transfer. Jack -----Original Message----- From: Mike Luther [mailto:luther(at)gci.net] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat Hi guys: I know of a couple of ways to get some extra heat from your muff: One way is to stuff your muff with some stainless steel scrub bud pads, like the ones used for doing dishes or another way is to use some door spring and wrap the exhaust pipe before putting on your muff. Mike Luther NX1953M Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, > lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: > > < is) where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins > welded to it. >> > > Ed, > I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never > seen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see > with this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe > on the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that > builds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve these > challenges by very carefully setting up the outer muff so there is no > way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing some type of ceramic > coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer muff. Does > anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ? > > Chuck G. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: axle ideas
Jack----I suspect that your .120" wall thickness might have played a part in your axle difficulty. Mine are .20 to .25" and I only welded the guide tube to the bottom of the axle--no holes drilled in the axle itself at all. I didn't like the idea of drilling and weakening the structure there. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
I visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this long and lived to tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experience and things mechanical. Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more prone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humidity levels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had to dodge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets were associated with folks who were using mogas? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Prange Larry J PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Hey Carl! Did you use 'Minwax Helmsman Urethane Varnish' (in the green can, cleans up with paint thinner) or did you use 'Minwax Polyurethane Varnish' (in the blue can, cleans up with water)? Thanks, Larry Prange - Still think'n about it. NX1929A I have used clear, satin Minwax Poluurethane varnish exclusively on the fuse and wing with the Stitts process and have experienced no difficulty with lifting...My $.02..Carl Vought ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
Well I'll be-----check this out ! http://www.ahasa.org.za/members_pics.htm and http://www.ahasa.org.za/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 29, 2004
The "Helmsman" part doesn't show up on the can. It thins and cleans up with mineral sperits..no water involved and the can is golden colored. Otherwise, the product nomenclature is as shown in my previous email....good luck.....Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prange Larry J PSNS" <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives > > Hey Carl! > > Did you use 'Minwax Helmsman Urethane Varnish' (in the green can, cleans up > with paint thinner) or did you use 'Minwax Polyurethane Varnish' (in the > blue can, cleans up with water)? > > Thanks, > Larry Prange - Still think'n about it. > NX1929A > > > I have used clear, satin Minwax Poluurethane varnish exclusively on the fuse > and wing with the Stitts process and have experienced no difficulty with > lifting...My $.02..Carl Vought > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
Date: Nov 29, 2004
wow... look how long that engine mount is! I wonder how it performs DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa > Well I'll be-----check this out ! > > http://www.ahasa.org.za/members_pics.htm > > and http://www.ahasa.org.za/ > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
DJ-- upon closer inspection of that airplane it's actually a single seat Pietenpol Scout. Mike C. > >wow... look how long that engine mount is! > >I wonder how it performs > >DJ > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" > >To: >Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 2:44 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa > > >>Well I'll be-----check this out ! >> >>http://www.ahasa.org.za/members_pics.htm >> >>and http://www.ahasa.org.za/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 29, 2004
I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, cleans up with paint thinner)..... I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for a while.... No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... Looks fine to me..... Jim Markle Senior Sales Engineer Art Technology Group - ATG :jim(at)atg.com *+1.469.371.0669 '+1.972.447.8330 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Prange Larry J PSNS Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives Hey Carl! Did you use 'Minwax Helmsman Urethane Varnish' (in the green can, cleans up with paint thinner) or did you use 'Minwax Polyurethane Varnish' (in the blue can, cleans up with water)? Thanks, Larry Prange - Still think'n about it. NX1929A I have used clear, satin Minwax Poluurethane varnish exclusively on the fuse and wing with the Stitts process and have experienced no difficulty with lifting...My $.02..Carl Vought ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 RPM), I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 RPM drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, damper in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured it out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to fixate on something and miss the easy answer. Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals > > Corky & Group-- A small item of BIG importance that some omit in the carb > heat setup on Champ-type stacks > is a sheet metal triangle that is fixed in between the "Y" of the exhaust > stacks prior to the heat muff being installed. > This triangle of metal forces the fresh air (from a scoop fixed to the side > of the muff) around the stacks and increases > the 'travel time' of the air to make sure the temp. is up where you need > it. A tab or three can be welded to the stacks > to hold this triangle in place. Would not have known this had I not done > annuals w/ my partner on our old Champ. > I asked Joe what the plate/triangle was for and he explained. > > Jack-- many thanks are being given here for your safe return to mother > earth and a repairable Pietenpol. > > Also I'm having concerns now about my big idea to keep the axle from > turning under braking action. I know my axle is > the same wall thickness as Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy as I pirated as much > info/ideas from him as possible.....and it's a very > thick wall. My guess is approximately 0.20-0.25" thick. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Were you bumping the throttle, Bert? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved. > > Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I > pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 RPM), > I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 RPM > drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - > engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb > heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, damper > in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? > > I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured it > out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to > fixate on something and miss the easy answer. > > Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? > > Bert > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> > To: > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 10:51 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals > > > > > > > Corky & Group-- A small item of BIG importance that some omit in the carb > > heat setup on Champ-type stacks > > is a sheet metal triangle that is fixed in between the "Y" of the exhaust > > stacks prior to the heat muff being installed. > > This triangle of metal forces the fresh air (from a scoop fixed to the > side > > of the muff) around the stacks and increases > > the 'travel time' of the air to make sure the temp. is up where you need > > it. A tab or three can be welded to the stacks > > to hold this triangle in place. Would not have known this had I not done > > annuals w/ my partner on our old Champ. > > I asked Joe what the plate/triangle was for and he explained. > > > > Jack-- many thanks are being given here for your safe return to mother > > earth and a repairable Pietenpol. > > > > Also I'm having concerns now about my big idea to keep the axle from > > turning under braking action. I know my axle is > > the same wall thickness as Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy as I pirated as much > > info/ideas from him as possible.....and it's a very > > thick wall. My guess is approximately 0.20-0.25" thick. > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Hmmm, interesting. You reach UP and OVER the throttle cable...how close are they to each other? TOO close? Cables rubbing? Shirt sleeve hanging on the throttle cable? What's happening to the air getting to the carb when the damper moves? I would LOVE to get my hands on it and see for myself! I for one have GOT to know what's up!!! :-) Maybe an offline answer so I can sleep tonite????? :-) Jim Markle Senior Sales Engineer Art Technology Group - ATG :jim(at)atg.com *+1.469.371.0669 '+1.972.447.8330 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bert Conoly Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved. Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 RPM), I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 RPM drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, damper in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured it out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to fixate on something and miss the easy answer. Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals > > Corky & Group-- A small item of BIG importance that some omit in the carb > heat setup on Champ-type stacks > is a sheet metal triangle that is fixed in between the "Y" of the exhaust > stacks prior to the heat muff being installed. > This triangle of metal forces the fresh air (from a scoop fixed to the side > of the muff) around the stacks and increases > the 'travel time' of the air to make sure the temp. is up where you need > it. A tab or three can be welded to the stacks > to hold this triangle in place. Would not have known this had I not done > annuals w/ my partner on our old Champ. > I asked Joe what the plate/triangle was for and he explained. > > Jack-- many thanks are being given here for your safe return to mother > earth and a repairable Pietenpol. > > Also I'm having concerns now about my big idea to keep the axle from > turning under braking action. I know my axle is > the same wall thickness as Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy as I pirated as much > info/ideas from him as possible.....and it's a very > thick wall. My guess is approximately 0.20-0.25" thick. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Jim Cooper <blugoos1(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Weight of salt water
Claude Corbett Corky: I'm not sure what the weight of salt water is per gallon because it depends on the salinity - possibly as much as 9 pounds. Fresh water weighs about 8.34 pounds per gallon. Those familiar with drilling oil wells (and dry holes) may be able to back me up on this ( I have been involved with both, mostly the latter). Mud weights used in drilling are based on pounds per gallon. Normal subsurface pressures equal the weight of fresh water per gallon times the depth. 82 gallon jugs filled with 9 pound salt water would weigh 738 pounds. 82 gallon jugs with 8.34 pound fresh water would weigh 684 pounds. Both figures are in the ball park for the empty weight of a Piet. Hope this helps. Jim Cooper ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Carb Heat
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Here is what those stainless steel wool scrubbing pads look like after you pull them out of your carburetor: Jack Phillips Icarus Plummet Hi guys: I know of a couple of ways to get some extra heat from your muff: One way is to stuff your muff with some stainless steel scrub bud pads, like the ones used for doing dishes or another way is to use some door spring and wrap the exhaust pipe before putting on your muff. Mike Luther NX1953M ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric Williams" <ewilliams805(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Pulling the Mixture knob? >From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved. >Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:25:44 -0500 > > >Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I >pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 >RPM), >I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 >RPM >drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - >engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb >heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, >damper >in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? > > I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured >it >out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to >fixate on something and miss the easy answer. > >Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? > >Bert > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> >To: >Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 10:51 AM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals > > > > > > > Corky & Group-- A small item of BIG importance that some omit in the >carb > > heat setup on Champ-type stacks > > is a sheet metal triangle that is fixed in between the "Y" of the >exhaust > > stacks prior to the heat muff being installed. > > This triangle of metal forces the fresh air (from a scoop fixed to the >side > > of the muff) around the stacks and increases > > the 'travel time' of the air to make sure the temp. is up where you need > > it. A tab or three can be welded to the stacks > > to hold this triangle in place. Would not have known this had I not >done > > annuals w/ my partner on our old Champ. > > I asked Joe what the plate/triangle was for and he explained. > > > > Jack-- many thanks are being given here for your safe return to mother > > earth and a repairable Pietenpol. > > > > Also I'm having concerns now about my big idea to keep the axle from > > turning under braking action. I know my axle is > > the same wall thickness as Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy as I pirated as >much > > info/ideas from him as possible.....and it's a very > > thick wall. My guess is approximately 0.20-0.25" thick. > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Pieters, My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near 72 this occurred. Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stopped it. Never had carb ice with the Lycoming 0-320. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- I visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this long and lived to tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experience and things mechanical. Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more prone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humidity levels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had to dodge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets were associated with folks who were using mogas? Pieters, My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near 72 this occurred. Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stopped it. Never had carb ice with the Lycoming 0-320. Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- I visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an AP license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this long and lived to tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experience and things mechanical. Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more prone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humidity levels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had to dodge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets were associated with folks who were using mogas? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Icarus Plummet
Date: Nov 29, 2004
Jack; Lift a cold mug with me and join the "Clipped Wing Club". But we shall fly another day, and learn in the process. At the moment, I'm looking at a set of Cessna 120/140 exhausts that should bolt right onto 41CC. I'll report on what I find out. Meantime, just recall how many "experiments" Mr. Pietenpol endured as he developed this airplane. Forced landings, engine-outs, experiments, and teaching himself how to fly the airplane... at least we have the benefit of shared knowledge, "how to land a Pietenpol" narratives, flight sequence videos, and all the rest to minimize the number of unplanned excursions from controlled flight! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
So now we know that scrub pads don't work! I've now erased that stuff out of my muff drawings. If you want to go the door spring route it might be better to go to your local potter's supply and check out the nichrome element coils used in electric kilns, expensive but virtually indestructible at exhaust temps. You could also use the coils out of older driers like Speed Queen but the alloy is not as tough although still good into the light orange heat range. Clif Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat > Here is what those stainless steel wool scrubbing pads look like after you > pull them out of your carburetor: > > Jack Phillips > Icarus Plummet ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
I did a little testing on that stuff and had the same result. Just make sure you specify the one below. Clif Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, cleans > up with paint thinner)..... > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for a > while.... > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... > > Looks fine to me..... > > Jim Markle ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 30, 2004
My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? AlexS -------------- Original message -------------- > > I did a little testing on that stuff and had the same result. Just make > sure you specify the one below. > > Clif > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives > > > > > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman > > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, > cleans > > up with paint thinner)..... > > > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for > a > > while.... > > > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... > > > > Looks fine to me..... > > > > Jim Markle > > > > > > > > > > My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? AlexS
-------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson I did a little testing on that stuff and had the same result. Just make sure you specify the one below. Clif Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, cleans up with paint thinner)..... I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for a while.... No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... Looks fine t ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Are you running Mogas or 100LL? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: MEK warning
When my father met with his second oncologist (after having had colon cancer last year and now liver cancer) the doctor asked him if he had a history of being exposed to solvents, especially MEK. I started looking around on a few websites, and found a lot of "smoking guns" in regard to a link between MEK and cancer. Needless to say, I use MEK impervious gloves and PPE when working with this stuff and I try and keep a good flow of fresh air going in and out of my hanger when around this stuff. No wonder everyone charges a substantial hazmat fee when shipping MEK. S.B. 5TA6 San Antonio Sectional (NOTAMS... fresh cowchips on runway, land at your own risk) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Jim Lathrop <jlathrop(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
I would bet on cable interference between the carb heat and the throttle cables. Pulling the carb heat also pulls out the throttle. Jim Lathrop (Piet wannabuilder) > > Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I > pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 RPM), > I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 RPM > drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - > engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb > heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, damper > in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? > > I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured it > out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to > fixate on something and miss the easy answer. > > Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? > > Bert ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Jim Cooper <blugoos1(at)direcway.com>
Subject: buoyancy
Claude Corbett Corky: For the record I goofed. Normal subsurface presure is not the weight of freshwater per gallon times the depth in feet. It is a function of the weight of fresh water, or .433, times the depth. I'm sure this must be very important information for Piet builders! Anyway, be sure you drain all the water out of the 82 gallon jugs before you try to float yours. You might add a few to make absolutely sure it won't sink. Cheers, Jim Cooper ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 30, 2004
THAT I'm not going to test. :-) I only have a couple varnished ribs on the spar since I realized after I varnished a couple that the bonding areas HAD to be bare (dust free) wood to bare wood....in other words....varnish AFTER mounting or protect the areas where an adhesive will need "teeth"...... ----- Original Message ----- From: alexms1(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? AlexS -------------- Original message -------------- > > I did a little testing on that stuff and had the same result. Just make > sure you specify the one below. > > Clif > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives > > > > > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman > > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, > cleans > > up with paint thinner)..... > > > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for > a > > while.... > > > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... > > > > Looks fine t ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Carb ice & mogas link
http://www.magma.ca/~ggrabe/carbice.html I found the below text in the above link. Some folks only believe that 100LL is less susceptible to vapor lock, which it is, but it also is less prone to helping chill-down your carb. After WW2, my old man dusted cotton in the summer in a Champ, powered with a Continental 65. He mainly dusted cotton in the Rio Grande area here in Texas and in irrigated fields. The humidity levels are obviously higher over a wet cotton field on a warm summer day than what one might expect in a West Texas desert. These old pilots soon discovered that carb ice was a BIG problem when using MOGAS and was less of a problem when using avgas. (Sidebar... when Uncle Sam started selling off Stearman airplanes a few years after the war, these old cotton dusters switched to the bigger airplanes and abandoned airplanes powered by a 65 Continental.) Conditions conducive to carb-ice formation can occur without any prior warning and in situations that may seem inappropriate, creating a very hazardous condition that could leave the aircraft and pilot vulnerable to engine failure. This results in an extremely unreliable hit-and-miss diagnosis of the problem. This situation is further amplified when using MOGAS which is more susceptible to the formation of carb-ice due to its higher volatility (ice may form at OATs up to 68F or 20C higher than with AVGAS) Sterling Knot-2-Shabby Airport & Texas Longhorn Cattle Ranch 5TA6, San Antonio Sectional ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
The spars don't need to be bonded to the spar with adhesive. Toe nailed top and bottom is more than good. Many piets are flying with charlies ribs and this is his reccomendation. Del Jim Markle wrote: THAT I'm not going to test. :-) I only have a couple varnished ribs on the spar since I realized after I varnished a couple that the bonding areas HAD to be bare (dust free) wood to bare wood....in other words....varnish AFTER mounting or protect the areas where an adhesive will need "teeth"...... ----- Original Message ----- From: alexms1(at)comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? AlexS -------------- Original message -------------- > > I did a little testing on that stuff and had the same result. Just make > sure you specify the one below. > > Clif > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives > > > > > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman > > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, > cleans > > up with paint thinner)..... > > > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for > a > > while.... > > > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... > > > > Looks fine t Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
In a message dated 11/29/04 8:39:06 AM Central Standard Time, luther(at)gci.net writes: << another way is to use some door spring and wrap the exhaust pipe before putting on your muff. >> This is how Bernard Pietenpol did the Model A engine, leaving the carb heat on, all the time. Again, the problem I see with this arragnement is that the spring will chafe on the exhaust pipe or muff, and the engine will ingest the rust. I still like the idea of having fins on the exhaust pipe, inside the muff, but not touching the muff. The fins would be maybe 1/4" high, and long enough where they couldn't get to the carb, even if they did come off. I was considering how to attach the fins, and I think braizing them on would be better than welding. Then - BAM !! It hit me...cover the whole pipe inside the muff with a light coat of brass. No more rust. Has anyone tried coating a piece of thin steel with brass (braizing) ? Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Icarus Plummet
In a message dated 11/29/04 9:31:49 PM Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: << Meantime, just recall how many "experiments" Mr. Pietenpol endured as he developed this airplane. Forced landings, engine-outs, experiments, and teaching himself how to fly the airplane... >> It is my understanding that Mr. Pietenpol NEVER had an engine failure, or a forced landing. Amazing, huh ? Can anyone confirm this ? Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
In a message dated 11/29/04 11:04:18 PM Central Standard Time, alexms1(at)comcast.net writes: << My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? >> The adhesive (T88 or whatever) WILL NOT hold the rib to the spar, if it has already been varnished. Varnish only after ALL the construction of the wing is totally complete, including the entire aileron portions. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
In a message dated 11/30/04 7:48:19 AM Central Standard Time, farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com writes: << The spars don't need to be bonded to the spar with adhesive. Toe nailed top and bottom is more than good. Many piets are flying with charlies ribs and this is his reccomendation. >> There have been many early aircraft built this way, but with all the flexing, and twisting the wing sees in service, the nails must work loose, and it was before contemporary adhesives were developed. I believe T88 is far superior to nailing the ribs to the spars. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Ed Smith <lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
3980A040E(at)comcast.net> Interesting thought. Reminds me of the cropdusters I used to work for. They mixed mogas and 100LL 50/50 for the Pratts. Ahh, round motors. At 10:17 PM 11/29/2004, you wrote: >Pieters, >My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near 72 >this occurred. Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stopped >it. Never had carb ice with the Lycoming 0-320. >Alex S. > >-------------- Original message -------------- >I visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due >to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P >license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown >this long and lived to tell about it has some merit in their observations >about flying experience and things mechanical. > >Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being >more prone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas >when humidity levels are high. He started mentioning something technical, >but I had to dodge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject >matter... > >I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets >were associated with folks who were using mogas? L. Edward Smith Boones Mill, VA 24065 lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com (preferred) lesmith_52(at)hotmail.com lesmith218(at)yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
I visited with Sky King again this morning. He advised that mogas isn't as highly refined as avgas. One of the culprits he said in mogas is there is something left over in the refining process akin to butadyrine (as in butane) and another component similar to those found in propane, and these "ingredients" are not found in avgas because avgas has gone through more refining stages. For anyone familiar with propane and butane (butane is hard to find these days BTW) the are very cold when released into the atmosphere, thus when they are present in very small quantities, they can accelerate and exacerbate icing in the venturi of a carb. Improvements in heat muffs is a must but using avgas, or at least a mixture of it with mogas gives you an advantage over straight use of mogas. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Ed Smith <lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
<009601c4d692$7dbd3e20$4e705118@dawsonaviation> Wrapping the pipes with springs or such doesn't really give the desired effect to the degree that we need. Two reasons: 1. The contact area with the pipes is miniscule to allow for heat transfer. 2. Contact is dependant on tension of the "spring" to maintain contact with the pipes affecting heat transfer. The fins would provide surface area, baffle the air to slow it for heat transfer, and welded to the stacks, would allow for efficient heat transfer. They do not have to encircle the pipes. Just protrude in between the "Y" of the pipes enclosed by the muff (assuming your using the 2 into 1 stacks on each side). Leaving an opening at the top for inlet air and tapping off the lower inboard baffle with scat tubing to the heat plenum should provide for sufficient heating of the inlet air. Something to keep in mind, at low power settings (or during ice accumulation, same thing) you will not have a great deal of heat in the pipes, usually when ice can be a concern, so I doubt you can over do the addition of heat to the carb short of causing detonation. In this case, moderate the heat with the position of the carb heat control. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Just remember, carb heat air is almost always unfiltered, so close that thing during ground ops as much as possible to reduce engine wear. At 11:10 PM 11/29/2004, you wrote: > >So now we know that scrub pads don't work! I've now erased >that stuff out of my muff drawings. > >If you want to go the door spring route it might be better to go >to your local potter's supply and check out the nichrome element >coils used in electric kilns, expensive but virtually indestructible >at exhaust temps. You could also use the coils out of older driers >like Speed Queen but the alloy is not as tough although still good >into the light orange heat range. > >Clif > L. Edward Smith Boones Mill, VA 24065 lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com (preferred) lesmith_52(at)hotmail.com lesmith218(at)yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Carb Heat
Hello Gang, I have flown behind many C-85's and 0200's and rarely had any problems with carb ice, even in icing conditions, burning auto-gas. I always mixed Marvel Mystery oil in the gas (as well as the oil). I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not, I'm just throwing this out for consideration. I would think that the oil would affect the freezing point of water and might have a positive affect. I agree, carb ice has always been a thorn in aviation's side. Doc > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
This is only a suggestion, you can mask the area where you wish to glue and varnish the rest. I have done this on other parts of the wood work. Doc --- del magsam wrote: > The spars don't need to be bonded to the spar with > adhesive. Toe nailed top and bottom is more than > good. Many piets are flying with charlies ribs and > this is his reccomendation. > Del > > Jim Markle wrote: > THAT I'm not going to test. :-) I only have a > couple varnished ribs on the spar since I realized > after I varnished a couple that the bonding areas > HAD to be bare (dust free) wood to bare wood....in > other words....varnish AFTER mounting or protect the > areas where an adhesive will need "teeth"...... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alexms1(at)comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:03 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing > Alternatives > > > My question is, if you varnish the ribs before > mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to > the spar on a varnished rib? > AlexS > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > I did a little testing on that stuff and had the > same result. Just make > > sure you specify the one below. > > > > Clif > > > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing > Alternatives > > > > > > > > > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I > gave one coat of Helmsman > > > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar > Urethane (in the green can, > > cleans > > > up with paint thinner)..... > > > > > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last > year...it's been there for > > a > > > while.... > > > > > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no > gooey.....no nuttin..... > > > > > > Looks fine t > > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" > > --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Prange Larry J PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Thanks to all who weighed in on my varnishing question! Is this a great list or what? AlexS, Epoxy glues will produce a better bond to bare wood than to any slick surface, like varnish. If you want two pieces of wood to stick together, there should be nothing but glue in between them. ********** AlexS Wrote: My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? Larry Prange - Slap'n on the Helmsman in the rain . . . NX1929A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
DJ-- upon closer inspection of that airplane it's actually a single seat Pietenpol Scout. Mike C. > >wow... look how long that engine mount is! > >I wonder how it performs > >DJ > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" > >To: >Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 2:44 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa > > >>Well I'll be-----check this out ! >> >>http://www.ahasa.org.za/members_pics.htm >> >>and http://www.ahasa.org.za/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
It says "Sky Scout" on the tail...but I think it's an air camper. In one photo it appears that the front cockpit is covered. In another photo, the cover is removed. See what you think. http://www.ahasa.org.za/images/pietenpol4_lrg.jpg -- Terry B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
Date: Nov 30, 2004
yeah I think your right. looks like a two holer DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: <BARNSTMR(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa > > It says "Sky Scout" on the tail...but I think it's an air camper. In one photo it appears that the front cockpit is covered. In another photo, the cover is removed. See what you think. > > http://www.ahasa.org.za/images/pietenpol4_lrg.jpg > > -- > Terry B > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 30, 2004
How about a mouse nest in the heat muff? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved. > > Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I > pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 RPM), > I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 RPM > drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - > engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb > heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, damper > in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? > > I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured it > out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to > fixate on something and miss the easy answer. > > Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? > > Bert > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> > To: > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 10:51 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals > > > > > > > Corky & Group-- A small item of BIG importance that some omit in the carb > > heat setup on Champ-type stacks > > is a sheet metal triangle that is fixed in between the "Y" of the exhaust > > stacks prior to the heat muff being installed. > > This triangle of metal forces the fresh air (from a scoop fixed to the > side > > of the muff) around the stacks and increases > > the 'travel time' of the air to make sure the temp. is up where you need > > it. A tab or three can be welded to the stacks > > to hold this triangle in place. Would not have known this had I not done > > annuals w/ my partner on our old Champ. > > I asked Joe what the plate/triangle was for and he explained. > > > > Jack-- many thanks are being given here for your safe return to mother > > earth and a repairable Pietenpol. > > > > Also I'm having concerns now about my big idea to keep the axle from > > turning under braking action. I know my axle is > > the same wall thickness as Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy as I pirated as much > > info/ideas from him as possible.....and it's a very > > thick wall. My guess is approximately 0.20-0.25" thick. > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Don't think it's an AirCamper. Gear attaches much too forward. And don't think that "hole" is a front seat ,,,It's got cross bracing on both sides and the front. Kind of hard to get into. This is from seeing only one pic of the front. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: <BARNSTMR(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa > > It says "Sky Scout" on the tail...but I think it's an air camper. In one photo it appears that the front cockpit is covered. In another photo, the cover is removed. See what you think. > > http://www.ahasa.org.za/images/pietenpol4_lrg.jpg > > -- > Terry B > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Subject: Tail wire fittings
Hey, Group! Thank you, Ed for your response. After I sent the question to the group, I discovered that BHP used 16 gauge steel on the Skyscout, so the .080 should be plenty strong. I'd like to add my best wishes to Jack after his incident. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Del, Why would you NOT want to glue the ribs to the spars? Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- > > This is only a suggestion, you can mask the area where > you wish to glue and varnish the rest. I have done > this on other parts of the wood work. > > Doc > --- del magsam wrote: > > > The spars don't need to be bonded to the spar with > > adhesive. Toe nailed top and bottom is more than > > good. Many piets are flying with charlies ribs and > > this is his reccomendation. > > Del > > > > Jim Markle wrote: > > THAT I'm not going to test. :-) I only have a > > couple varnished ribs on the spar since I realized > > after I varnished a couple that the bonding areas > > HAD to be bare (dust free) wood to bare wood....in > > other words....varnish AFTER mounting or protect the > > areas where an adhesive will need "teeth"...... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: alexms1(at)comcast.net > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:03 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing > > Alternatives > > > > > > My question is, if you varnish the ribs before > > mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to > > the spar on a varnished rib? > > AlexS > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > > > I did a little testing on that stuff and had the > > same result. Just make > > > sure you specify the one below. > > > > > > Clif > > > > > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing > > Alternatives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I > > gave one coat of Helmsman > > > > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar > > Urethane (in the green can, > > > cleans > > > > up with paint thinner)..... > > > > > > > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last > > year...it's been there for > > > a > > > > while.... > > > > > > > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no > > gooey.....no nuttin..... > > > > > > > > Looks fine t > > > > Del-New Richmond, Wi > > "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" > > > > --------------------------------- > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Del, Why would you NOT want to glue the ribs to the spars? Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson This is only a suggestion, you can mask the area where you wish to glue and varnish the rest. I have done this on other parts of the wood work. Doc --- del magsam wrote: The spars don't need to be bonded to the spar with adhesive. Toe nailed top and bottom is more than good. Many piets are flying with charlies ribs and this is his reccomendation. Del Jim Markle wrote: THAT I'm not going to test. :-) I only have a couple varnished ribs on the spar since I realized after I varnished a couple that the bonding areas HAD to be bare (dust free) wood to bare wood....in other words....varnish AFTER mounting or protect the areas where an adhesive will need "teeth"...... ----- Original Message ----- From: alexms1(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives My question is, if you varnish the ribs before mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to the spar on a varnished rib? AlexS -------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson I did a little testing on that stuff and had the same result. Just make > ; sure you specify the one below. Clif Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing Alternatives I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I gave one coat of Helmsman Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar Urethane (in the green can, cleans up with paint thinner)..... I probably coated that rib sometime early last year...it's been there for a while.... No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no gooey.....no nuttin..... Looks fine t Del-New Richmond, Wi ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Bike-Mike and Markle guessed right.... Thanks for the e-mails.....Had several great guesses. All were very unusual but plausible. Interconnections between the throttle and carb heat cables, kinks in the SCAT tube, obstruction in the air box, improperly rigged cables, varmits in the heat muff,. pulling the wrong knob (mixture), ... The problem was simply that as I reached up and over the throttle, I would grab the carb heat knob with index and middle finger. When I pulled backward, my wrist would gently pull the throttle back. And it would drop back to idle. I would quickly push in the carb heat and it "came back" But actually it never went anywhere - other than to idle. I was so fixated on what the carb heat was doing to the engine, that I never felt the throttle moving. Moral to the story.... Try not to fixate on a problem. there's a reason for everything. Just think these problems through and logically figure them out. Bert (whose inspection is in 3 weeks- after 9 1/2 years building. Cross yer fingers!) )----- Original Message ----- From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved. Are you running Mogas or 100LL? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" <TWINBOOM(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Looks like the placement for the fuel cell> Doug & Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California www.inlandsloperebels.com W W's Conversion Manual 3202, 5782 www.flycorvair.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <BARNSTMR(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A VW powered Piet ~in South Africa > > It says "Sky Scout" on the tail...but I think it's an air camper. In one photo it appears that the front cockpit is covered. In another photo, the cover is removed. See what you think. > > http://www.ahasa.org.za/images/pietenpol4_lrg.jpg > > -- > Terry B > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Varnishing Alternatives
you get a much better varnish cover on the ribs by dipping them and letting them drip dry. The spar is easier to varnish without ribs on them and gets a better varnish cover also. many hours of work saved not having to hand brush all of those ribs. There is no structural advantage to adhere the ribs to the spars. I put in the wedges to fill up the total spar space in the ribs so there is no shear load on the toe nails. Del alexms1(at)comcast.net wrote: Del, Why would you NOT want to glue the ribs to the spars? Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- > > This is only a suggestion, you can mask the area where > you wish to glue and varnish the rest. I have done > this on other parts of the wood work. > > Doc > --- del magsam wrote: > > > The spars don't need to be bonded to the spar with > > adhesive. Toe nailed top and bottom is more than > > good. Many piets are flying with charlies ribs and > > this is his reccomendation. > > Del > > > > Jim Markle wrote: > > THAT I'm not going to test. :-) I only have a > > couple varnished ribs on the spar since I realized > > after I varnished a couple that the bonding areas > > HAD to be bare (dust free) wood to bare wood....in > > other words....varnish AFTER mounting or protect the > > areas where an adhesive will need "teeth"...... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: alexms1(at)comcast.net > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:03 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing > > Alternatives > > > > > > My question is, if you varnish the ribs before > > mounting on the spar, will the glue hold the rib to > > the spar on a varnished rib? > > AlexS > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > > > I did a little testing on that stuff and had the > > same result. Just make > > > ; sure you specify the one below. > > > > > > Clif > > > > > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Varnishing > > Alternatives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just rubbed an MEK soaked rag on a rib that I > > gave one coat of Helmsman > > > > Clear Gloss oil based indoor/outdoor Spar > > Urethane (in the green can, > > > cleans > > > > up with paint thinner)..... > > > > > > > > I probably coated that rib sometime early last > > year...it's been there for > > > a > > > > while.... > > > > > > > > No problem.....no lifting.....no sticky.....no > > gooey.....no nuttin..... > > > > > > > > Looks fine t > > > > Del-New Richmond, Wi > Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved.
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Bert, I like the confused cables going to the mixture answer. But, you probably don't have a mixture control so I will go with a clogged filter of some sort. Ted > From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb heat w/ 65 Continentals - Mystery Solved. > > > Speaking of carb heat. I've had a problem with my engine going dead when I > pull carb heat for several weeks. That is, during normal run-up (1500 RPM), > I switch to left mag, then right mag. All's fine and normal with 50-75 RPM > drop. Reach up and over the throttle, grab the carb heat and pull - - > engine drops to idle and nearly quits before I recover by pushing in carb > heat. I checked everything. The heat box is fine, SCAT tubing fine, damper > in the airbox works fine.... What's going on here? > > I asked 3 different A&Ps and they scratched their heads, too. Figured it > out today - so simple it's embarrasing. But it shows how easy it is to > fixate on something and miss the easy answer. > > Anybody want to guess what it turned out to be? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: House paint details
Date: Nov 30, 2004
Dick N, I remember that you said you painted your plane with house paint. I don't remember that you gave a lot of details. If you did, just say so and I will look in the archives. If you didn't would you answer a couple of questions? Did you use any primer on the dacron, i.e., poly brush, or anything else? Did you spray? If so, did you have to thin much? Did you use any UV protection under it? Any platicizers added? Anything else you learned that would help someone following your lead? Thanks, Ted ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: House paint details
----- Original Message ----- From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: House paint details > Before Dick gets to answer, here's a couple of sites to > check out; > > http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/paintinguls.htm > > http://www.modelairplanenews.com/how_to/latex1.asp > > Clif > > > > > > > Dick N, > > > > I remember that you said you painted your plane with house paint. I don't > > remember that you gave a lot of details. If you did, just say so and I > will > > look in the archives. If you didn't would you answer a couple of > questions? > > > > Did you use any primer on the dacron, i.e., poly brush, or anything else? > > Did you spray? If so, did you have to thin much? Did you use any UV > > protection under it? Any platicizers added? Anything else you learned > that > > would help someone following your lead? > > > > Thanks, Ted > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2004
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: House paint details
Hello Ted, I also used this method and works GREAT!. I used this method in my Ladder Pou, Nothing needed but latex and is UV protectant by itself. I used the latex (semigloss) paint as final color (blue and yellow), but two other builders here used automotive paint (with a plastifier to prevent the paint from "braking") as final coat over the latex, looks like show room finish. I like the finish of my paint (well, what can I say? :-) The best latex paint to use (and still is very inexpensive) is the one with more than 10 years waranty, this has the more UV protection. 3 years now in my plane and still perfect finish like new. here is one link to my project: http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm I also have a photo page in Yahoo with the full construction process, there I have several photos of the painting process but the address was changed by them and I have it at my work computer, with other links related: Tests in direct sun for several years, etc. Will send you the info tomorrow. Is your new Piet readt to cover? Congratulations. Saludos Gary Gower. --- Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > Dick N, > > I remember that you said you painted your plane with house paint. I > don't > remember that you gave a lot of details. If you did, just say so and > I will > look in the archives. If you didn't would you answer a couple of > questions? > > Did you use any primer on the dacron, i.e., poly brush, or anything > else? > Did you spray? If so, did you have to thin much? Did you use any UV > protection under it? Any platicizers added? Anything else you > learned that > would help someone following your lead? > > Thanks, Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: House paint details
Date: Dec 01, 2004
I'm using the polyfiber process... I've already bought the silver Poly-Spray and am wondering... can I finish using the polyfiber process up to Poly-Spray and then go latex color on top of that?! I had intended on using polyfiber colors but damn!!! it's SOOO expensive. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: House paint details > > Hello Ted, > > I also used this method and works GREAT!. > > I used this method in my Ladder Pou, Nothing needed but latex and is > UV protectant by itself. > > I used the latex (semigloss) paint as final color (blue and yellow), > but two other builders here used automotive paint (with a plastifier to > prevent the paint from "braking") as final coat over the latex, looks > like show room finish. > I like the finish of my paint (well, what can I say? :-) > > The best latex paint to use (and still is very inexpensive) is the one > with more than 10 years waranty, this has the more UV protection. > > 3 years now in my plane and still perfect finish like new. > > here is one link to my project: > > http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm > > I also have a photo page in Yahoo with the full construction process, > there I have several photos of the painting process but the address was > changed by them and I have it at my work computer, with other links > related: Tests in direct sun for several years, etc. > > Will send you the info tomorrow. Is your new Piet readt to cover? > Congratulations. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > --- Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > > > > > Dick N, > > > > I remember that you said you painted your plane with house paint. I > > don't > > remember that you gave a lot of details. If you did, just say so and > > I will > > look in the archives. If you didn't would you answer a couple of > > questions? > > > > Did you use any primer on the dacron, i.e., poly brush, or anything > > else? > > Did you spray? If so, did you have to thin much? Did you use any UV > > protection under it? Any platicizers added? Anything else you > > learned that > > would help someone following your lead? > > > > Thanks, Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doyle Combs" <dcombs(at)ltex.net>
Subject: Re: House paint details
Date: Dec 02, 2004
DJ, I painted over silver and also some painted areas in some renewing of my fuselage. It goes on ok, but not as good as using the Latex all the way. I have not had any real problems with the mixture of the twol. Also I used Sherwin Williams Polyurethane as a final coat because the house paint was so soft and would scratch easily. The gloss I liked better any way. I brushed some of the Poly and sprayed some. They both looked good. D. Combs ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: House paint details I'm using the polyfiber process... I've already bought the silver Poly-Spray and am wondering... can I finish using the polyfiber process up to Poly-Spray and then go latex color on top of that?! I had intended on using polyfiber colors but damn!!! it's SOOO expensive. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: House paint details > > Hello Ted, > > I also used this method and works GREAT!. > > I used this method in my Ladder Pou, Nothing needed but latex and is > UV protectant by itself. > > I used the latex (semigloss) paint as final color (blue and yellow), > but two other builders here used automotive paint (with a plastifier to > prevent the paint from "braking") as final coat over the latex, looks > like show room finish. > I like the finish of my paint (well, what can I say? :-) > > The best latex paint to use (and still is very inexpensive) is the one > with more than 10 years waranty, this has the more UV protection. > > 3 years now in my plane and still perfect finish like new. > > here is one link to my project: > > http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm > > I also have a photo page in Yahoo with the full construction process, > there I have several photos of the painting process but the address was > changed by them and I have it at my work computer, with other links > related: Tests in direct sun for several years, etc. > > Will send you the info tomorrow. Is your new Piet readt to cover? > Congratulations. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > --- Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > > > > > Dick N, > > > > I remember that you said you painted your plane with house paint. I > > don't > > remember that you gave a lot of details. If you did, just say so and > > I will > > look in the archives. If you didn't would you answer a couple of > > questions? > > > > Did you use any primer on the dacron, i.e., poly brush, or anything > > else? > > Did you spray? If so, did you have to thin much? Did you use any UV > > protection under it? Any platicizers added? Anything else you > > learned that > > would help someone following your lead? > > > > Thanks, Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2004
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: House paint details
Hello DJ, I dont think is necesary, the Latex will hold directly (mechanicaly) to the Dacron fibers, and is UV protectant, two hands of latex with foam paint brush (one in one direction, let dry 1 hour, and the second one in cross direction, if you want the third hand with latex, you are finished, if not, just you give a third hand with automotive paint (same color) and will look better (brighter) than aircraft paint, if you use a semigloss type it will look "antique" and nobody will notice the diference, but your wallet... Here in our Club is a Kitfox 6 (the most beautifull and well built Kitfox I have seen ( I helped and visited him twice a week, so I can say this first hand)), covered is completly "Poly" by the manual. Also there is a Koala that is finished with latex paint and car paint in the last hand (with plastifier to prevent the paint to "crack") when they are side by side the only diference you will notice is the brighter colors in the koala and the gloss. In fact the Koala has already 5 years of almost every week end flying and looks like new... He is near 2 hours flying distance (his speed) from our Club, and visits us several weekends a year. Saludos Gary Gower. DJ Vegh wrote: I'm using the polyfiber process... I've already bought the silver Poly-Spray and am wondering... can I finish using the polyfiber process up to Poly-Spray and then go latex color on top of that?! I had intended on using polyfiber colors but damn!!! it's SOOO expensive. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: House paint details > > Hello Ted, > > I also used this method and works GREAT!. > > I used this method in my Ladder Pou, Nothing needed but latex and is > UV protectant by itself. > > I used the latex (semigloss) paint as final color (blue and yellow), > but two other builders here used automotive paint (with a plastifier to > prevent the paint from "braking") as final coat over the latex, looks > like show room finish. > I like the finish of my paint (well, what can I say? :-) > > The best latex paint to use (and still is very inexpensive) is the one > with more than 10 years waranty, this has the more UV protection. > > 3 years now in my plane and still perfect finish like new. > > here is one link to my project: > > http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm > > I also have a photo page in Yahoo with the full construction process, > there I have several photos of the painting process but the address was > changed by them and I have it at my work computer, with other links > related: Tests in direct sun for several years, etc. > > Will send you the info tomorrow. Is your new Piet readt to cover? > Congratulations. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > --- Ted Brousseau wrote: > > > > > > > Dick N, > > > > I remember that you said you painted your plane with house paint. I > > don't > > remember that you gave a lot of details. If you did, just say so and > > I will > > look in the archives. If you didn't would you answer a couple of > > questions? > > > > Did you use any primer on the dacron, i.e., poly brush, or anything > > else? > > Did you spray? If so, did you have to thin much? Did you use any UV > > protection under it? Any platicizers added? Anything else you > > learned that > > would help someone following your lead? > > > > Thanks, Ted > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 11/30/04
Date: Dec 01, 2004
I have gotten ice here in Florida in the middle of the summer with almost 100 percent humidity and 90 degrees. I have gotten it on take off too. A trick I use is to leave the carb heat on after the run up test. Try to remember to push it off on take off. Don't know how much that little bit of heat helps but I have never gotten ice on climb out when I did that. Ted > Hello Gang, > > I have flown behind many C-85's and 0200's and rarely > had any problems with carb ice, even in icing > conditions, burning auto-gas. I always mixed Marvel > Mystery oil in the gas (as well as the oil). I don't > know if this has anything to do with it or not, I'm > just throwing this out for consideration. I would > think that the oil would affect the freezing point of > water and might have a positive affect. I agree, carb > ice has always been a thorn in aviation's side. > > Doc > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: House paint details
Date: Dec 01, 2004
Gary, Almost ready to start covering. If I didn't keep thinking of new things to add it would be sooner. Some day I am going to say enough is enough. Hope all is well with you. Ted > Hello Ted, > > I also used this method and works GREAT!. > Is your new Piet readt to cover? > Congratulations. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: GN-1 inspection in Indiana
Date: Dec 04, 2004
BlankI found a GN-1 in Indiana that I'm really interested in, the problem is I'm in Dallas and don't know anyone in the area that I would trust to perform an inspection. I will be in Minnesota for Christmas, and will likely make the trip down to Indiana to see the plane while I'm there. I don't know enough to inspect it myself though. DJ is already helping me out with this, but how can I find an A & P up there that I can trust to perform a competent inspection on the plane? Can anyone suggest someone up there, particularly someone familiar with Pietenpols? Will an IA perform a pre-purchase inspection? The plane is in northern Indiana, about 1hr from Chicago. Any other tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Steve Ruse Dallas, TX --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael McCarty" <mmccarty(at)zianet.com>
Subject: Re: GN-1 inspection in Indiana
Date: Dec 04, 2004
You could contact the local EAA chapter and ask who they would recommend for a wood and fabric aircraft. -Mac ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 inspection in Indiana > > BlankI found a GN-1 in Indiana that I'm really interested in, the problem is > I'm in Dallas and don't know anyone in the area that I would trust to > perform an inspection. I will be in Minnesota for Christmas, and will > likely make the trip down to Indiana to see the plane while I'm there. I > don't know enough to inspect it myself though. DJ is already helping me out > with this, but how can I find an A & P up there that I can trust to perform > a competent inspection on the plane? Can anyone suggest someone up there, > particularly someone familiar with Pietenpols? Will an IA perform a > pre-purchase inspection? The plane is in northern Indiana, about 1hr from > Chicago. > > Any other tips would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks! > > Steve Ruse > Dallas, TX > > --- > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 05, 2004
From: "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: GN-1 inspection in Indiana
Charles Ruebeck is in Spencer, Indiana, if I'm not mistaken. I don't have any contact information for him though (someone else surely does). From what I'm told, he would be excellent. John John Ford john(at)indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> steve(at)wotelectronics.com Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:02:14 PM >>> BlankI found a GN-1 in Indiana that I'm really interested in, the problem is I'm in Dallas and don't know anyone in the area that I would trust to perform an inspection. I will be in Minnesota for Christmas, and will likely make the trip down to Indiana to see the plane while I'm there. I don't know enough to inspect it myself though. DJ is already helping me out with this, but how can I find an A & P up there that I can trust to perform a competent inspection on the plane? Can anyone suggest someone up there, particularly someone familiar with Pietenpols? Will an IA perform a pre-purchase inspection? The plane is in northern Indiana, about 1hr from Chicago. Any other tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Steve Ruse Dallas, TX --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: GN-1 flight characteristics
Date: Dec 05, 2004
BlankHow difficult is a Piet to handle on the ground with no experience? I got my taildragger endorsement in an L2 Taylorcraft in the last few months, I still only have about 25hrs of taildragger time. I soloed in the L2 after about 7 hours. Would I be asking for trouble soloing in a GN-1 with only an hour or so of instruction? I figured a Piet wouldn't be too hard to handle given the low speeds, but maybe the shorter tail will make it more tricky? Thanks for any tips! Steve Ruse Dallas, TX --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: tube bending
Date: Dec 05, 2004
I just got my carb and intake for my model A. I'm using a Weber. The intake manifold is aluminum and needs modifying so that the carb sits low enough to ensure the proper head of fuel. I'd like to "cut and paste" a new manifold together using some of the old manifold sections. I can find the aluminum tubing of the same diameter (1.5 id with .25 wall) but need to figure out who can put some fairly sharp bends in it. I've read that these bends are put in using mandrels, but does anyone know what kind of company I would look for that could do this for me? It's too big and thick, and the bends are too sharp for me to attempt it, but I'm sure it's a piece of cake for someone with the right machinery. Thanks, Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: tube bending
Date: Dec 05, 2004
Try a local, small, independent muffler shop....or some little machine shop that does stock car or some other kind of car racing that also builds their own cars...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tube bending I just got my carb and intake for my model A. I'm using a Weber. The intake manifold is aluminum and needs modifying so that the carb sits low enough to ensure the proper head of fuel. I'd like to "cut and paste" a new manifold together using some of the old manifold sections. I can find the aluminum tubing of the same diameter (1.5 id with .25 wall) but need to figure out who can put some fairly sharp bends in it. I've read that these bends are put in using mandrels, but does anyone know what kind of company I would look for that could do this for me? It's too big and thick, and the bends are too sharp for me to attempt it, but I'm sure it's a piece of cake for someone with the right machinery. Thanks, Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: tube bending
Date: Dec 05, 2004
get various bends already fre-fabbed and weld together your own. Thats what I did for my Corvair install. get it from Burns Stainless. They have various diameters and bends of 6061 tubing. http://www.burnsstainless.com/AluminumTube/aluminumtube.html DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tube bending I just got my carb and intake for my model A. I'm using a Weber. The intake manifold is aluminum and needs modifying so that the carb sits low enough to ensure the proper head of fuel. I'd like to "cut and paste" a new manifold together using some of the old manifold sections. I can find the aluminum tubing of the same diameter (1.5 id with .25 wall) but need to figure out who can put some fairly sharp bends in it. I've read that these bends are put in using mandrels, but does anyone know what kind of company I would look for that could do this for me? It's too big and thick, and the bends are too sharp for me to attempt it, but I'm sure it's a piece of cake for someone with the right machinery. Thanks, Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: tube bending
Date: Dec 06, 2004
Muffler shops here in Aussie do not do mandrel bending as the norm. I found a company specializing in mandrel bends to do mine. Expensive but good. I would recommend buying pre bent 90s or 45s and welding them together. It's a much less expensive way. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tube bending Try a local, small, independent muffler shop....or some little machine shop that does stock car or some other kind of car racing that also builds their own cars...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe <mailto:douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Blumberg Subject: Pietenpol-List: tube bending I just got my carb and intake for my model A. I'm using a Weber. The intake manifold is aluminum and needs modifying so that the carb sits low enough to ensure the proper head of fuel. I'd like to "cut and paste" a new manifold together using some of the old manifold sections. I can find the aluminum tubing of the same diameter (1.5 id with .25 wall) but need to figure out who can put some fairly sharp bends in it. I've read that these bends are put in using mandrels, but does anyone know what kind of company I would look for that could do this for me? It's too big and thick, and the bends are too sharp for me to attempt it, but I'm sure it's a piece of cake for someone with the right machinery. Thanks, Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2004
From: del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: tube bending
You can also cut miters in the tubing using a miter saw with a carbide tipped blade and weld the sections back together at the proper angle. like the most forward part on my vair intakes as shown. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=vair_angle_view.jpg&PhotoID=956 Jim Markle wrote:Try a local, small, independent muffler shop....or some little machine shop that does stock car or some other kind of car racing that also builds their own cars...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg Subject: Pietenpol-List: tube bending I just got my carb and intake for my model A. I'm using a Weber. The intake manifold is aluminum and needs modifying so that the carb sits low enough to ensure the proper head of fuel. I'd like to "cut and paste" a new manifold together using some of the old manifold sections. I can find the aluminum tubing of the same diameter (1.5 id with .25 wall) but need to figure out who can put some fairly sharp bends in it. I've read that these bends are put in using mandrels, but does anyone know what kind of company I would look for that could do this for me? It's too big and thick, and the bends are too sharp for me to attempt it, but I'm sure it's a piece of cake for someone with the right machinery. Thanks, Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
Steve--- if this is a red and white one north of Indy I'd steer clear of it. Friends went to look at it last year and said it was in pretty shi#$% &y shape. Mike C. > >BlankHow difficult is a Piet to handle on the ground with no experience? I >got my taildragger endorsement in an L2 Taylorcraft in the last few months, >I still only have about 25hrs of taildragger time. I soloed in the L2 after >about 7 hours. Would I be asking for trouble soloing in a GN-1 with only an >hour or so of instruction? I figured a Piet wouldn't be too hard to handle >given the low speeds, but maybe the shorter tail will make it more tricky? > >Thanks for any tips! > >Steve Ruse >Dallas, TX > >--- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
Date: Dec 06, 2004
this is a yellow one. I have seen it in person and it's in excellent shape. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > Steve--- if this is a red and white one north of Indy I'd steer clear of > it. Friends went to look at > it last year and said it was in pretty shi#$% &y shape. > > Mike C. > > > > > >BlankHow difficult is a Piet to handle on the ground with no experience? I > >got my taildragger endorsement in an L2 Taylorcraft in the last few months, > >I still only have about 25hrs of taildragger time. I soloed in the L2 after > >about 7 hours. Would I be asking for trouble soloing in a GN-1 with only an > >hour or so of instruction? I figured a Piet wouldn't be too hard to handle > >given the low speeds, but maybe the shorter tail will make it more tricky? > > > >Thanks for any tips! > > > >Steve Ruse > >Dallas, TX > > > >--- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 06, 2004
Subject: Help Isabelle
Pieters, Some of you older and more up to date aviators might be able to help Isabelle. She wants to give her groom a handheld and ear phones for Christmas, a secret, but doesn't know who to ask about the type, model and specifications/prices which would be best for a 3/4 deaf Piet pilot. Her groom doesn't know much more than his bride on the subject. If any of you have gone through this of late please send Isabelle a little e mail with info so she can surprise her groom on Christmas day. Otherwise he'll get his usual socks and tie.Thanks in advance Corky in snowless La. ( That's Loosianna, NOT Los Angeles) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
GREAT !!!! > >this is a yellow one. I have seen it in person and it's in excellent shape. > >DJ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> >To: >Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:21 AM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > > > > > > Steve--- if this is a red and white one north of Indy I'd steer clear of > > it. Friends went to look at > > it last year and said it was in pretty shi#$% &y shape. > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BlankHow difficult is a Piet to handle on the ground with no experience? >I > > >got my taildragger endorsement in an L2 Taylorcraft in the last few >months, > > >I still only have about 25hrs of taildragger time. I soloed in the L2 >after > > >about 7 hours. Would I be asking for trouble soloing in a GN-1 with only >an > > >hour or so of instruction? I figured a Piet wouldn't be too hard to >handle > > >given the low speeds, but maybe the shorter tail will make it more >tricky? > > > > > >Thanks for any tips! > > > > > >Steve Ruse > > >Dallas, TX > > > > > >--- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2004
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
report It definately isn't red and white. It could be better described as a flying banana. Bright yellow. DJ sent me some pretty good pictures, looking at the pictures it appears to be in good shape. Thanks for the tip though! It would be good to know if I was considering a lemon. Steve Quoting Michael D Cuy : > > > Steve--- if this is a red and white one north of Indy I'd steer clear of > it. Friends went to look at > it last year and said it was in pretty shi#$% &y shape. > > Mike C. > > > > > > >BlankHow difficult is a Piet to handle on the ground with no experience? I > >got my taildragger endorsement in an L2 Taylorcraft in the last few months, > >I still only have about 25hrs of taildragger time. I soloed in the L2 after > >about 7 hours. Would I be asking for trouble soloing in a GN-1 with only an > >hour or so of instruction? I figured a Piet wouldn't be too hard to handle > >given the low speeds, but maybe the shorter tail will make it more tricky? > > > >Thanks for any tips! > > > >Steve Ruse > >Dallas, TX > > > >--- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: tube bending
Date: Dec 06, 2004
Douwe.....Are you acquainted with what some folks call a "log manifold"? It was in use during the forties (Guy Lombardo may have had some connection with it). I have two. They look "geeky" to me, but they seem to have had some successes, especially in boat racing. I mention it because there are no bends in it and it would be easy to fabricate. ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tube bending I just got my carb and intake for my model A. I'm using a Weber. The intake manifold is aluminum and needs modifying so that the carb sits low enough to ensure the proper head of fuel. I'd like to "cut and paste" a new manifold together using some of the old manifold sections. I can find the aluminum tubing of the same diameter (1.5 id with .25 wall) but need to figure out who can put some fairly sharp bends in it. I've read that these bends are put in using mandrels, but does anyone know what kind of company I would look for that could do this for me? It's too big and thick, and the bends are too sharp for me to attempt it, but I'm sure it's a piece of cake for someone with the right machinery. Thanks, Douwe douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: GN-1 flight characteristics
Date: Dec 06, 2004
Steve, As a pilot with about 450 hours in a Pietenpol GN-1 and a CFI who teaches tailwheel transition training I would say that if you can keep the L2 going straight you can keep the Piet going straight. I have to add that I have not flown a L2. I did just ferry a J3 and found it much easier to land and take off than any other tail wheel plane I have flown. The reason I say it is easy is because it didn't roll more than 50' before it was ready to fly and about twice that on landing before you were taxiing. Can't get in too much trouble in such a short distance. The Piet rolls longer on both landing and takeoff, therefore giving you a longer period to try and keep it going straight. So, if the L2 flys anything like the Cub, it will be a little different than the Piet. Other than that the Piet is pretty straight forward on the ground. Landing is another story. Ted Brousseau > From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > > BlankHow difficult is a Piet to handle on the ground with no experience? I > got my taildragger endorsement in an L2 Taylorcraft in the last few months, > I still only have about 25hrs of taildragger time. I soloed in the L2 after > about 7 hours. Would I be asking for trouble soloing in a GN-1 with only an > hour or so of instruction? I figured a Piet wouldn't be too hard to handle > given the low speeds, but maybe the shorter tail will make it more tricky? > > Thanks for any tips! > > Steve Ruse > Dallas, TX > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2004
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
I haven't flown an L2, but I have flown many small taildraggers and have many hours flying the Taylorcraft airfoil. It is a "floater" and very forgiving at low speed where the Pietenpol is not. Also the taylorcraft has very low drag in comparison to the Piet or GN-1. You'll need to respect the GN-1 at low power and/or speed where the Tcraft has docile characteristics. The the stall behavior of a Piet or GN-1 is varied from one airplane to another because of variations in building, rigging, and weight and balance. Also, the minimum control speed can vary due to these things. I am not trying to scare you off, because the Piet or GN-1 is not an unsafe airplane design. I am merely trying to point out that the design is quite different than the taylorcraft. So... in summary...I always say....for a Piet or GN-1.... Whatever you do, lower the nose. -- Terry L. Bowden ph 254-715-4773 fax 254-853-3805 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Help Isabelle
Date: Dec 07, 2004
I picked up an I Com A-23 at Oshgosh last summer and I'm real happy with it. I just looked it up in ACS and I didn't pay anywhere near the price thet have in there of $299. It was more like $250 from Gulf Coast Avionics with all accesories and the headset adaptor. I tried a couple of different headsets and I don't know enough to offer help there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:29 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Help Isabelle Pieters, Some of you older and more up to date aviators might be able to help Isabelle. She wants to give her groom a handheld and ear phones for Christmas, a secret, but doesn't know who to ask about the type, model and specifications/prices which would be best for a 3/4 deaf Piet pilot. Her groom doesn't know much more than his bride on the subject. If any of you have gone through this of late please send Isabelle a little e mail with info so she can surprise her groom on Christmas day. Otherwise he'll get his usual socks and tie.Thanks in advance Corky in snowless La. ( That's Loosianna, NOT Los Angeles) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Help Isabelle
Isabelle---the best prices on handhelds and headsets is here: http://www.marvgolden.com/transeivers/icom-main.htm Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 07, 2004
Subject: Rear fuselage
I can't quite make out what's going on on the plans with the rear "tail plug." I assume there is a solid piece of wood, vee shaped, that fits between the lower longerons, from the very tail up to the side struts, or up to the first bottom cross brace, which my plans say is to be 3 inches ahead of the side struts. Can someone make this a little more clear for me... I was having trouble figuring out how much to plane the tailposts to get the right angle for joining them. Had an engineer figure it out trigonometrically (about 5 degrees) but then he said, "Why don't you just do what the ancient Incas and Egyptians did when they had to get those big stones to match up perfectly in their pyramids?" Well, I'm a sucker for any method that's really simple. Basically, I just put a big spring clamp on the rear fuselage to hold the tailposts together -- the front fuselage sides had already been joined at the firewall and seat back bulkheads. Then, I fastened 100-grit sandpaper to both sides of a two foot long by about 4-inch wide strip of 1/4-inch plywood. I slid the "sandpaper tool" between the tailposts and using a sawing motion, staying lined up with the centerline of the fuselage, gradually sanded just the right angle into the tailposts -- and of course, they match perfectly. Great exercise, too! I imagine the "pros" on the list already know about this method, but thought I'd share it. Will send some pics when I get the film developed... Anyway, she's starting to look like an airplane fuselage...many thanks for past advice -- and no doubt, future advice! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2004
From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: Engine parts for sale
The latest Dragonfly Builders and Flyers Newsletter (letempt(at)fidnet.com) has this item listed for sale. It may be of interest to Piet people: For Sale: Complete Corvair engine kit. All of William Wynn's parts, 10/10 crankshaft w/safety shaft and studs, assembly manual, Aero carb, Heads rebuilt, dual ignition distributor built by William Wynn w/box enclosure and coils, points, resistors, wires, etc. Also complete engine mount for the Dragon fly built by William Wynn. All parts cleaned and ready to put together. Assembly tapes I,II, etc. Sold dragonfly. Have $3500 invested. Will sell for $3,000 OBO plus S&K. contact Fish Fischer@ 505-861-7034 or fishhole(at)pacifier.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 07, 2004
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
In a message dated 12/6/04 9:50:05 PM Central Standard Time, nfn00979(at)naples.net writes: << Landing is another story. >> We had a very good series of discussions of the landing phase of flying the Pietenpol about a year ago. I think Walt Evans started it out. It's really quite a good challenge to make good landings consistantly. The high drag of the Pietenpol airfoil at high angles of attack tend to slow it down quickly, therefore to make consistant three point, full stall landings, you have to be but inches above the ground as you go through the flair. You could carry a little power through the flair, but then you land longer than if you don't. I like to pick out a target (I've even used a bag of flour to mark a spot) and see just how short I can land, and get 'er stopped (without applying brakes). It makes my whole day, when I can get a nice gentle touchdown, and short roll out !! Check out the archives. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 07, 2004
Subject: Re: Help Isabelle
In a message dated 12/7/04 10:36:23 AM Central Standard Time, horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: <> I have an I Com A-5 (Com only), and I think it is just about the best radio on the market. Hey, while we're on this subject, has anyone ever found a headset / leather helmet incorporated together, like the W W 2 helmets ? Maybe even with ANR (Active Noise Reduction). It would be a perfect Pietenpol accessory. After a few hours of wearing the headset, and cloth helmet with the cutouts, my ears become very uncomfortable. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
Date: Dec 07, 2004
Chuck The best part of that discussion a year ago was your second by second account of the landing. I printed it out and read it a few times before my first flight. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > In a message dated 12/6/04 9:50:05 PM Central Standard Time, > nfn00979(at)naples.net writes: > > << Landing is another story. >> > > We had a very good series of discussions of the landing phase of flying > the > Pietenpol about a year ago. I think Walt Evans started it out. It's > really > quite a good challenge to make good landings consistantly. The high drag > of the > Pietenpol airfoil at high angles of attack tend to slow it down quickly, > therefore to make consistant three point, full stall landings, you have to > be but > inches above the ground as you go through the flair. You could carry a > little > power through the flair, but then you land longer than if you don't. I > like > to pick out a target (I've even used a bag of flour to mark a spot) and > see > just how short I can land, and get 'er stopped (without applying brakes). > It > makes my whole day, when I can get a nice gentle touchdown, and short roll > out > !! > Check out the archives. > > Chuck G. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: GN-1 flight characteristics
Date: Dec 07, 2004
Thanks for the tips everyone, I've been checking the archives, there is some great information in there. Basically it sounds like Pietenpols are pretty docile, but they tend to stall abruptly, which is aggravated by the fact that they have a high amount of drag which causes them to slow down quickly. One question I didn't see answered though: How much of a difference does the GN-1 airfoil make in the stall characteristic? Obviously you still are going to slow down fast, so I'm guessing it is still pretty abrupt. Does anyone typically round out with just a hair of power to keep it from slowing down so fast? Thanks again for the tips! Steve Ruse Dallas, TX -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Navratil Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics Chuck The best part of that discussion a year ago was your second by second account of the landing. I printed it out and read it a few times before my first flight. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > In a message dated 12/6/04 9:50:05 PM Central Standard Time, > nfn00979(at)naples.net writes: > > << Landing is another story. >> > > We had a very good series of discussions of the landing phase of flying > the > Pietenpol about a year ago. I think Walt Evans started it out. It's > really > quite a good challenge to make good landings consistantly. The high drag > of the > Pietenpol airfoil at high angles of attack tend to slow it down quickly, > therefore to make consistant three point, full stall landings, you have to > be but > inches above the ground as you go through the flair. You could carry a > little > power through the flair, but then you land longer than if you don't. I > like > to pick out a target (I've even used a bag of flour to mark a spot) and > see > just how short I can land, and get 'er stopped (without applying brakes). > It > makes my whole day, when I can get a nice gentle touchdown, and short roll > out > !! > Check out the archives. > > Chuck G. > > --- --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rear fuselage
Fred, I glued in a pied of 3/4" ash which I gusseted both sides (top and bottom) with 1/8" birch plywood. This makes a very solid attachment for a tail wheel (skid). I attached a photo of the instillation. Doc --- TBYH(at)aol.com wrote: > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Help Isabelle
Date: Dec 08, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Check out Flightsuits.com. I bought their leather flying helmet with earphones built in and it works great. I've had a number of people comment on how clear my transmissions are, surprising for an open cockpit. Their address is: http://www.flightsuits.com/open_leather.html But I don't know if the Matronics website will let an internet address go through Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com [mailto:Rcaprd(at)aol.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Help Isabelle In a message dated 12/7/04 10:36:23 AM Central Standard Time, horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: <> I have an I Com A-5 (Com only), and I think it is just about the best radio on the market. Hey, while we're on this subject, has anyone ever found a headset / leather helmet incorporated together, like the W W 2 helmets ? Maybe even with ANR (Active Noise Reduction). It would be a perfect Pietenpol accessory. After a few hours of wearing the headset, and cloth helmet with the cutouts, my ears become very uncomfortable. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: what is level when flying
Date: Dec 08, 2004
I'm building up my intake manifold (thanks for all the suggestions, got everything needed from your sources!! what a great resource you all are!) I'm using a weber carb on my "A" engine and it should be as close to horizontal as possible during normal flight. The plans call for a few degrees of downthrust already in the engine, and then angling the carb forward even more and he says, he wants the carb level in flight. What is horizontal on a piet during level flight. How many degrees down would you say from the top longerons? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 08, 2004
Subject: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale
I just listed an external air-driven wind generator on Ebay, item number 4510914846. I had planned on using this on an Air Camper, but as some of you know, I sold the Pietenpol a couple of months ago. These Ward Aero units aren't cheap, and the "BUY IT NOW" price is $25 less than what I paid for it last year. My plans were to mount this to the belly of the Air Camper with a quick release device, allowing to use it only when needed to keep a battery charged when taking a long trip. I figure, why fly around with extra drag and weight when not needed, but this generator should be adequate to keep a 12 volt battery charged that is feeding juice to a modest strobe power supply, a small transponder, a handheld radio, two turtle doves and three geese a laying. OK, I lied about the turtle doves and geese a laying, but the output seems pretty good to me. This unit appears to have been made in 1998. I also listed a Trimble Flitemate handheld GPS on Ebay and an altenator for a Cherokee PA-280-140 having a Lycoming 0-320. Bid early and bid often. S.B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paulsen" <dpaul(at)fidnet.com>
Subject: Torque Tube Rod
Date: Dec 08, 2004
Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know what. The rod can't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
sale
Subject: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale
Date: Dec 08, 2004
Yikes, I had no idea they were so expensive. I'm going to need one if I end up buying the GN-1 I'm looking at, I'll have to keep an eye on this. Has anyone ever seen a homemade wind generator using a DC motor? Doesn't seem like it would be too hard at all if you could create a decent propeller for it. Steve Ruse Dallas, TX -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of N321TX(at)wmconnect.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:03 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale I just listed an external air-driven wind generator on Ebay, item number 4510914846. I had planned on using this on an Air Camper, but as some of you know, I sold the Pietenpol a couple of months ago. These Ward Aero units aren't cheap, and the "BUY IT NOW" price is $25 less than what I paid for it last year. My plans were to mount this to the belly of the Air Camper with a quick release device, allowing to use it only when needed to keep a battery charged when taking a long trip. I figure, why fly around with extra drag and weight when not needed, but this generator should be adequate to keep a 12 volt battery charged that is feeding juice to a modest strobe power supply, a small transponder, a handheld radio, two turtle doves and three geese a laying. OK, I lied about the turtle doves and geese a laying, but the output seems pretty good to me. This unit appears to have been made in 1998. I also listed a Trimble Flitemate handheld GPS on Ebay and an altenator for a Cherokee PA-280-140 having a Lycoming 0-320. Bid early and bid often. S.B. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2004
From: Land Shorter <landshorter2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: GN-1 flight characteristics
Hey Oscar, got those VGs on yet? :) Joa www.landshorter.com Steve Ruse wrote: Thanks for the tips everyone, I've been checking the archives, there is some great information in there. Basically it sounds like Pietenpols are pretty docile, but they tend to stall abruptly, which is aggravated by the fact that they have a high amount of drag which causes them to slow down quickly. One question I didn't see answered though: How much of a difference does the GN-1 airfoil make in the stall characteristic? Obviously you still are going to slow down fast, so I'm guessing it is still pretty abrupt. Does anyone typically round out with just a hair of power to keep it from slowing down so fast? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: GN-1 flight characteristics
Date: Dec 08, 2004
Steve, You CAN carry a little power into the landing and it helps smooth it out. But, I don't recommend getting used to that procedure. What happens when you have to make a dead stick landing when the engine quits? I land without power at least 75% of the time so that there won't be any surprises if I have to make a dead stick landing. (had a local EAA member do just that last year after flying young eagles. Totaled his aircraft. I asked him how many power off landings he had made. He said one and he didn't like it so he never tried again. He landing in a smooth farm field and could have kept it shiny side up if he had practiced). Like Chuck says, aim at a point on the ground, carry speed on the approach and roundout 6 inches above the ground and you will grease it on every time. How much speed on approach? Each one is different, but start with a high speed and slowly taper off until you find that sweet spot for your plane. Too much speed on approach will simply mean you float a little down the runway. Too little speed on approach will mean that when you pull back to roundout you test you bungees because the descent is barely slowed down when it pancakes in. Happy landings. Ted > From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > > Thanks for the tips everyone, I've been checking the archives, there is some > great information in there. Basically it sounds like Pietenpols are pretty > docile, but they tend to stall abruptly, which is aggravated by the fact > that they have a high amount of drag which causes them to slow down quickly. > One question I didn't see answered though: How much of a difference does the > GN-1 airfoil make in the stall characteristic? Obviously you still are going > to slow down fast, so I'm guessing it is still pretty abrupt. Does anyone > typically round out with just a hair of power to keep it from slowing down > so fast? > > Thanks again for the tips! > > Steve Ruse > Dallas, TX > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GN-1 flight characteristics
Steve, I haven't flown a Pietenpol as yet, but I do have hundreds of hours in antique biplanes. From what I hear and have read here, it sounds like the Piet wing causes the plane to handle much like that of a biplane. All drag and lift and very little glide. They are right about one thing, keep the nose down and your airspeed up...all the way down to the ground and then round out with a gentle touch. The second you pull the nose of the biplane up without power, the thing slows down like you have a drag chute on the back end. Round out too high, and you won't like the landing. If you see that you have rounded out too high, a quick burst on the throttle will help you salvage the landing though. Once you get used to this type of airplane, I think you will like it because you can control the landing much easier than you can in say a Cessna 172 that wants to keep floating forever. I loved the old biplanes and the way they flew. I often used what I call a powered slip into landing. Pretty frightening to watch from the ground, but I had complete control of the plane all the way to touchdown and could land on a dime almost everytime. Barnstorming small fields on hot windless days you needed that type of plane to do the job. I think the Piet will be a fun plane to fly so just get you a nice big GRASS airstrip or field and practice, practice, practice... Good luck and have lots of fun. Doc > > > > > > > > > Click on the > this > by the > Admin. > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Subject: Torque Tube Rod
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Dave, The guide pins don't have to be welded. However, just putting a hole through the axle causes a stress concentration. My axle broke at the guide pin, but my axle was only .120" wall. My new axle will be .188" wall, and I will have it heat treated after welding to raise the yield strength to 105,000 psi, which will make it about 50% stronger (and 8 lbs lighter) than a .25" wall axle non-heat treated. I am also going to change the design of the guide pins to allow the holes through the axle to be on the neutral axis so any stress concentrations caused by the holes will not matter. Jack Phillips Slowly beginning to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know what. The rod can't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave Paulsen Dave, The guide pins dont have to be welded. However, just putting a hole through the axle causes a stress concentration. My axle broke at the guide pin, but my axle was only .120 wall. My new axle will be .188 wall, and I will have it heat treated after welding to raise the yield strength to 105,000 psi, which will make it about 50% stronger (and 8 lbs lighter) than a .25 wall axle non-heat treated. I am also going to change the design of the guide pins to allow the holes through the axle to be on the neutral axis so any stress concentrations caused by the holes will not matter. Jack Phillips Slowly beginning to repair NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know what.The rodcan't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gerryy(at)airage.com (Gerry Yarrish)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/08/04
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Wow, I am impressed. basically what we would need from such an illustrator would be model structures and other related items. This art work I think is much better related to our sister publication Flight Journal! Take care, GY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" <pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/08/04 > * > > ================================================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================== > > Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.2004-12-08.html > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.2004-12-08.txt > > > ================================================ > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================ > > > Pietenpol-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 12/08/04: 8 > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 04:15 AM - Re: Help Isabelle (Phillips, Jack) > 2. 06:29 AM - what is level when flying (Douwe Blumberg) > 3. 03:03 PM - Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale (N321TX(at)wmconnect.com) > 4. 04:47 PM - Torque Tube Rod (David Paulsen) > 5. 05:16 PM - Re: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale (Steve Ruse) > 6. 05:33 PM - Re: GN-1 flight characteristics (Land Shorter) > 7. 08:07 PM - GN-1 flight characteristics (Ted Brousseau) > 8. 11:04 PM - Re: GN-1 flight characteristics (Galen Hutcheson) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Help Isabelle > From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> > > > Check out Flightsuits.com. I bought their leather flying helmet with > earphones built in and it works great. I've had a number of people > comment on how clear my transmissions are, surprising for an open > cockpit. Their address is: > http://www.flightsuits.com/open_leather.html > But I don't know if the Matronics website will let an internet address > go through > > Jack Phillips, PE > Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development > Clinical Technologies and Services > Cardinal Health > Creedmoor, NC > (919) 528-5212 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com [mailto:Rcaprd(at)aol.com] > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Help Isabelle > > > In a message dated 12/7/04 10:36:23 AM Central Standard Time, > horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: > > <> > > I have an I Com A-5 (Com only), and I think it is just about the best > radio > on the market. > Hey, while we're on this subject, has anyone ever found a headset / > leather helmet incorporated together, like the W W 2 helmets ? Maybe > even with > ANR (Active Noise Reduction). It would be a perfect Pietenpol > accessory. > After a few hours of wearing the headset, and cloth helmet with the > cutouts, my > ears become > very uncomfortable. > > Chuck G. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: what is level when flying > > I'm building up my intake manifold (thanks for all the suggestions, got everything > needed from your sources!! what a great resource you all are!) I'm using > a weber carb on my "A" engine and it should be as close to horizontal as possible > during normal flight. > > The plans call for a few degrees of downthrust already in the engine, and then > angling the carb forward even more and he says, he wants the carb level in flight. > > > What is horizontal on a piet during level flight. How many degrees down would > you say from the top longerons? > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale > > I just listed an external air-driven wind generator on Ebay, item number > 4510914846. > > I had planned on using this on an Air Camper, but as some of you know, I sold > the Pietenpol a couple of months ago. These Ward Aero units aren't cheap, and > the "BUY IT NOW" price is $25 less than what I paid for it last year. > > My plans were to mount this to the belly of the Air Camper with a quick > release device, allowing to use it only when needed to keep a battery charged when > > taking a long trip. I figure, why fly around with extra drag and weight when > not needed, but this generator should be adequate to keep a 12 volt battery > charged that is feeding juice to a modest strobe power supply, a small > transponder, a handheld radio, two turtle doves and three geese a laying. > > OK, I lied about the turtle doves and geese a laying, but the output seems > pretty good to me. > > This unit appears to have been made in 1998. > > I also listed a Trimble Flitemate handheld GPS on Ebay and an altenator for a > Cherokee PA-280-140 having a Lycoming 0-320. > > Bid early and bid often. > > S.B. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ > > > From: "David Paulsen" <dpaul(at)fidnet.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod > > Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles > have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know > what. The rod can't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom > that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave > Paulsen > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale > > Yikes, I had no idea they were so expensive. I'm going to need one if I end > up buying the GN-1 I'm looking at, I'll have to keep an eye on this. > > Has anyone ever seen a homemade wind generator using a DC motor? Doesn't > seem like it would be too hard at all if you could create a decent propeller > for it. > > Steve Ruse > Dallas, TX > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > N321TX(at)wmconnect.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:03 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ward Aero external wind driven generator for sale > > > I just listed an external air-driven wind generator on Ebay, item number > 4510914846. > > I had planned on using this on an Air Camper, but as some of you know, I > sold the Pietenpol a couple of months ago. These Ward Aero units aren't > cheap, and the "BUY IT NOW" price is $25 less than what I paid for it last > year. > > My plans were to mount this to the belly of the Air Camper with a quick > release device, allowing to use it only when needed to keep a battery > charged when taking a long trip. I figure, why fly around with extra drag > and weight when not needed, but this generator should be adequate to keep a > 12 volt battery charged that is feeding juice to a modest strobe power > supply, a small transponder, a handheld radio, two turtle doves and three > geese a laying. > > OK, I lied about the turtle doves and geese a laying, but the output seems > pretty good to me. > > This unit appears to have been made in 1998. > > I also listed a Trimble Flitemate handheld GPS on Ebay and an altenator > for a Cherokee PA-280-140 having a Lycoming 0-320. > > Bid early and bid often. > > S.B. > > > --- > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ > > > DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > b=gJdA/J0d7fMjCpppGVdzWtKue+ZMt48DmfwKa7qQFtb1y84RXxpEGIFyTcJsqrAZjOaL+0Dhk6 Txe1SqlP35FbaQn4eZZjTWRgppwn50c4GvpiMpzc9PmbG791Xhbj7GzLKIBM8q+AC4O2cDzp/1zZ HfwP2UUkGuTmQ0MhFzDdI> ; > From: Land Shorter <landshorter2(at)yahoo.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > Hey Oscar, got those VGs on yet? :) > > Joa > www.landshorter.com > > > Steve Ruse wrote: > > Thanks for the tips everyone, I've been checking the archives, there is some > great information in there. Basically it sounds like Pietenpols are pretty > docile, but they tend to stall abruptly, which is aggravated by the fact > that they have a high amount of drag which causes them to slow down quickly. > One question I didn't see answered though: How much of a difference does the > GN-1 airfoil make in the stall characteristic? Obviously you still are goi ng > to slow down fast, so I'm guessing it is still pretty abrupt. Does anyone > typically round out with just a hair of power to keep it from slowing down > so fast? > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > > Steve, > > You CAN carry a little power into the landing and it helps smooth it out. > But, I don't recommend getting used to that procedure. What happens when > you have to make a dead stick landing when the engine quits? I land without > power at least 75% of the time so that there won't be any surprises if I > have to make a dead stick landing. (had a local EAA member do just that > last year after flying young eagles. Totaled his aircraft. I asked him how > many power off landings he had made. He said one and he didn't like it so > he never tried again. He landing in a smooth farm field and could have kept > it shiny side up if he had practiced). Like Chuck says, aim at a point on > the ground, carry speed on the approach and roundout 6 inches above the > ground and you will grease it on every time. How much speed on approach? > Each one is different, but start with a high speed and slowly taper off > until you find that sweet spot for your plane. Too much speed on approach > will simply mean you float a little down the runway. Too little speed on > approach will mean that when you pull back to roundout you test you bungees > because the descent is barely slowed down when it pancakes in. > > Happy landings. > > Ted > > > From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips everyone, I've been checking the archives, there is > some > > great information in there. Basically it sounds like Pietenpols are > pretty > > docile, but they tend to stall abruptly, which is aggravated by the fact > > that they have a high amount of drag which causes them to slow down > quickly. > > One question I didn't see answered though: How much of a difference does > the > > GN-1 airfoil make in the stall characteristic? Obviously you still are > going > > to slow down fast, so I'm guessing it is still pretty abrupt. Does anyone > > typically round out with just a hair of power to keep it from slowing down > > so fast? > > > > Thanks again for the tips! > > > > Steve Ruse > > Dallas, TX > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ > > > DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > b=uizU3gVNTFcO6G7z7yV4nYH+5hYx9SoeBpG6mDoD1sNYrUVDUdGO7+lJwu+fDA6kPzLdhNulja iuLCQYJ7W7s0MzAA+jhI0xZaDYIkT2yAJkzEQy0HjtuluA5jiq7jgoEPFI7O8CEGNnrTDFcgGXON 9rFF3lZcoRY89feHh4NnM> ; > From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 flight characteristics > > > Steve, > > I haven't flown a Pietenpol as yet, but I do have > hundreds of hours in antique biplanes. From what I > hear and have read here, it sounds like the Piet wing > causes the plane to handle much like that of a > biplane. All drag and lift and very little glide. > They are right about one thing, keep the nose down and > your airspeed up...all the way down to the ground and > then round out with a gentle touch. The second you > pull the nose of the biplane up without power, the > thing slows down like you have a drag chute on the > back end. Round out too high, and you won't like the > landing. If you see that you have rounded out too > high, a quick burst on the throttle will help you > salvage the landing though. Once you get used to this > type of airplane, I think you will like it because you > can control the landing much easier than you can in > say a Cessna 172 that wants to keep floating forever. > I loved the old biplanes and the way they flew. I > often used what I call a powered slip into landing. > Pretty frightening to watch from the ground, but I had > complete control of the plane all the way to touchdown > and could land on a dime almost everytime. > Barnstorming small fields on hot windless days you > needed that type of plane to do the job. I think the > Piet will be a fun plane to fly so just get you a nice > big GRASS airstrip or field and practice, practice, > practice... > > Good luck and have lots of fun. > > Doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click on the > > this > > by the > > Admin. > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Subject: External wind driven airplane generator on Ebay (questions
answered) I've had several off-list questions about the generator I have listed on Ebay. I tried to add additional pictures to address the questions, but it seems once someone has placed a bid on an item, you can't add a picture. I'm happy to send extra picture if you'll contact me through the auction. I think it would be an easy task to make a quick release plate for this. I have see belly pods on Avid's and Kitfoxes that were bulkier and heavier and I believe this would be an easier install than a belly (cargo) pod on an Avid. #1. The unit stands about 11 inches tall. That would make it hang about 10 inches below the belly of an airplane. #2. It would best be mounted in the slipstream under the belly. The instruction manual suggests it cranks out 10 amps at 80 mph, and that can be achieved under the belly of an Air Camper, unless you are at idle engine RPM. #3. The prop on the generator is made from aluminum and it looks to be cast. The "hub" is machined so should not slip on the shaft. The blade looks be about 5 inches on each side. #4. I think the best place to mount would be directly under the passenger and some kind of plate on both sides of the wooden floor would be needed to provide reinforcement. Doubling the plywood with an extra layer should do, or two plates of aluminum about 8 inches wide and 10 inches long should work. #5. I was told from the person who purchased it at an estate auction in Michigan last year that it appears this generator has never been in service. The original owner passed away and it was in a hanger with a project airplane. The only paperwork that came with this was the 8 page manual and on the front it states "FAA/PMA" thus the reason these things are expensive when new. The manual is dated 1998, so I suspect this generator is 6 years old. I think it would provide years of service and it looks like it would be easy to put new brushes in it, should they ever become worn. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 2004
From: Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net>
Subject: P. F. Beck's Pietenpol NX747PF
In the new Winter 2004 issue of Sport Aviation Association's "To Fly" magazine, there is an article by P. F. Beck, builder of Pietenpol NX747PF, with several color photos. The title of the article is "My Low-Cost Pietenpol." Beck's Piety is really a classic - plywood forward fuselage, yellow wings and tail, BHP tailwheel, wire wheels, and spotfaced aluminum cowling. He uses a Corvair engine. As he says, the machine cost him a total of $6800, and he explains how to do it. "To Fly" magazine is one reason to join SAA. Another is the June gathering at Urbana. Doc Mosher ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: wind generator
Date: Dec 09, 2004
For someone who is using a battery anyway, should be able to use a very small alternator from a car to mount a prop and mounting to. walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: wind generator
Date: Dec 09, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I have an 18 Amp-Hour battery on my Pietenpol. No generator. I can recharge it on the ground wiht a trickle charger, but so far, in 8 hours of flying using the comm radio on every flight, and occasionally using the Ah-Ooooga horn, I have not had to recharge the battery yet. I have not been running the transponder becasue i have not yet felt like shelling out the $300 required to get the encoder calibrated, so that will probably increase the electrical load considerably. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- For someone who is using a battery anyway, should be able to use a very small alternator from a car to mount a prop and mounting to. walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Subject: Re: wind generator
A machinist friend on mine in El Paso tried making his own homemade unit, first using an alternator from a Chrysler (which I believe is basically the same thing found on many certified airplanes) but he removed it from his experimental airplane after a few weeks. The first problem was the Chrysler alternator had a diameter about the size of a large can of Folgers coffee. He said the extra drag from hanging such a large object with massive frontal area created so much drag, it caused problems. The second problem was when the alternator locked up. He then tried using an alternator from (memory escapes me, but it was either from a Subaru or a Toyota.) He tried the Japanese alternator because it had a smaller frontal diameter. The Japanese unit had less drag, but still, the alternator locked up after a short period. Upon his investigation after disassembly of both alternators, he determined that the wind load placed on the bearings not designed for 80 MPH frontal loads caused the failure. He switched to the version I have, and I never recall him having problems with the unit that was designed for this purpose. Of the several advantages of the Ward Aero Wind Driven Generator is the small frontal area. Instead of hanging something from the belly of an airplane that is the size of a large can of Folgers coffee, the Ward Aero unit is about the size of a Foster's Lager or a Colorado Cool-Aid. I suspect the Ward Aero aviation generator is engineered for different loads and stresses since it is rated 250 mph VNE. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paulsen" <dpaul(at)fidnet.com>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Rod
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Thanks Jack. Perhaps I will try to find two 8 inch pieces of pipe that can slip tightly into my axle - position them so there's about 4 inches of pipe on either side of the holes - and drill them through. This will double the thickness of the axle in that critical area acting as reinforcement in case there is a exceptionally hard landing. Dave Paulsen ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com' Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Dave, The guide pins don't have to be welded. However, just putting a hole through the axle causes a stress concentration. My axle broke at the guide pin, but my axle was only .120" wall. My new axle will be .188" wall, and I will have it heat treated after welding to raise the yield strength to 105,000 psi, which will make it about 50% stronger (and 8 lbs lighter) than a .25" wall axle non-heat treated. I am also going to change the design of the guide pins to allow the holes through the axle to be on the neutral axis so any stress concentrations caused by the holes will not matter. Jack Phillips Slowly beginning to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know what. The rod can't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 09, 2004
I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 10, 2004
Richard, I have a Repair-man's certificate for my old RV-3 and one for my RV-6. Mine were issued upon request when I applied for the Air worthiness certificate. No quizzing of any sort. Hope you get this worked out. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N Richard, I have a Repair-man's certificate formy old RV-3 and one for my RV-6. Mine were issued upon request when I applied for the Air worthiness certificate. No quizzing of any sort. Hope you get this worked out. Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- I don't recall seeing this subjectdiscussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Something some of us older Pieters learned during the wars, " he who asks questions, gets trouble " Get a DAR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 09, 2004
Dick. It sounds like you're just dealing with typical beaurocratic FAA crap. I thought that typically one could simply apply for the repairman certificate at the time of inspection/airworthiness certificate. That's what I am doing. You should ask that "examiner" how many airplanes he's built and flown. Tell him to call you Monday for an appointment so he can block out an hour of HIS time, come to your hangar, and you'll give him an hours instruction on how to build an airplane. Tell him you'll even do it at no charge - cause your a nice guy. I'll send you the rest of MY ADVICE off list. See ya, Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "NEMuzzy" <list01(at)gourmetdamage.com>
Subject: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 09, 2004
I kept a photo log and web page of my construction process. (Make sure you have a few pictures with yourself in it, doing the work!) Links to the pages were included with the paperwork. There was also a day-by-day log for the first half of the project (where you are making lots of parts). The inspector stated that it was obvious that I did the work and was qualified to get the repairman's certificate. He completed the paperwork for the repairnman's certificate immediately following the airframe inspection, and the card showed up a month or two later. You don't need the card until it comes time for the condition inspection. The concern is that there are people who have purchased projects that do not have the complete skillset required to do a conditional inspection. If you have reasonable documentation that you did the work, there should be no concerns. If you have no documentation, they may be looking for enough demonstration of knowledge about the building process. -Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 10, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I got mine when the FAA inspector inspected the aircraft for the airworthiness certificate. I had filled out the application befrehand and he gave me the temporary certificate on the spot. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Navratil [mailto:horzpool(at)goldengate.net] Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 10, 2004
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
When I built my first airplane, an Avid Sportster, the FSDO guy came down, spent 10 minutes looking at my jewel and my extensive logs and picture. He drove off, I flew my bird and received my Repairman's Certificate in the mail about 90 days later without having to rub my tummy, pat my head and/or say the alphabet backwards nor naming all 50 states in 20 seconds. I think you have a horse's rear end giving you a double dose of grief. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cgalley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 10, 2004
That's exactly the way it's supposed to work. The inspector conducts and interview with the applicant in order to determine the applicant's level of knowledge of the aircraft and it's construction and systems. Providing that the applicant exhibits the proper level of knowledge, the certificate will be issued. Pictures I believe are now a requirement. If you get a certificate without showing some how that you did build and are competent to maintain, then the inspector is being lazy and not doing a good job. If he can't follow those regs, how good an inspection of your plane are you getting? Is the plane really airworthy or has he just signed it off to get rid of you? But some can tell if you built it and are capable at the time of the inspection. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: NEMuzzy To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I kept a photo log and web page of my construction process. (Make sure you have a few pictures with yourself in it, doing the work!) Links to the pages were included with the paperwork. There was also a day-by-day log for the first half of the project (where you are making lots of parts). The inspector stated that it was obvious that I did the work and was qualified to get the repairman's certificate. He completed the paperwork for the repairnman's certificate immediately following the airframe inspection, and the card showed up a month or two later. You don't need the card until it comes time for the condition inspection. The concern is that there are people who have purchased projects that do not have the complete skillset required to do a conditional inspection. If you have reasonable documentation that you did the work, there should be no concerns. If you have no documentation, they may be looking for enough demonstration of knowledge about the building process. -Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 10, 2004
The guys aren't there to bust chops, they just have to be sure that you built it and didn't just buy a project 99% done. The guy that I was given at the FAA facility was a 777 inspector. Kind of laughed and said he usually did the "big iron". So he had to go get the list of things required. Everything that I had was good except the paper said I needed a building log which he took for an itemized, daily log. I spent the next few weeks fabricating one from memory,reciepts, and dated photos. Real pain in the neck to do. When I returned back to the FAA, I was told at the desk that my "agent" was busy and she would go get the "duty agent of the day". Another nice guy. When I laid all my stuff on the table, he glanced at some pictures , some glue samples, and some welding samples. After some questions, he started to fill out the paperwork. NOT ONCE did he mention the builders log laying in front of him. Go figure! "Life is like a box of chocolates" walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: cgalley To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman That's exactly the way it's supposed to work. The inspector conducts and interview with the applicant in order to determine the applicant's level of knowledge of the aircraft and it's construction and systems. Providing that the applicant exhibits the proper level of knowledge, the certificate will be issued. Pictures I believe are now a requirement. If you get a certificate without showing some how that you did build and are competent to maintain, then the inspector is being lazy and not doing a good job. If he can't follow those regs, how good an inspection of your plane are you getting? Is the plane really airworthy or has he just signed it off to get rid of you? But some can tell if you built it and are capable at the time of the inspection. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: NEMuzzy To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I kept a photo log and web page of my construction process. (Make sure you have a few pictures with yourself in it, doing the work!) Links to the pages were included with the paperwork. There was also a day-by-day log for the first half of the project (where you are making lots of parts). The inspector stated that it was obvious that I did the work and was qualified to get the repairman's certificate. He completed the paperwork for the repairnman's certificate immediately following the airframe inspection, and the card showed up a month or two later. You don't need the card until it comes time for the condition inspection. The concern is that there are people who have purchased projects that do not have the complete skillset required to do a conditional inspection. If you have reasonable documentation that you did the work, there should be no concerns. If you have no documentation, they may be looking for enough demonstration of knowledge about the building process. -Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Rod
Date: Dec 10, 2004
----- Original Message ----- From: David Paulsen To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Dave, Pardon me for jumping into this discussion about how to keep the straight axle from rotating when the brakes are applied. May I suggest an alternative method of doing this so that the axle is free to move in any direction without excessive strain on welded joints? I also believe that the integrity of the axle is not compromised by cutting a hole through it and I think this is a lighter solution to the problem. I have attached a photo of the installation on my ex- "Mountain Piet". You just weld a couple of 3" tabs on the top and bottom of the axle in the middle. Do the same thing on the rear spreader bar. Now drill some 1/4" holes at the top and bottom of the tabs to use Heim joints. Then connect the Heim joints with a 1/2" round aluminum rod drilled and tapped for the 1/4-20 threads of the Heim joints so that when when the whole thing is assembled you have a parallelogram formed by the tabs and links. The system works well. If I were to do it over again, the only change I would make would be to use a rear spreader bar with a little thicker wall so that it is not as apt to bend under loading. Hope this is helpful in your decision. John Thanks Jack. Perhaps I will try to find two 8 inch pieces of pipe that can slip tightly into my axle - position them so there's about 4 inches of pipe on either side of the holes - and drill them through. This will double the thickness of the axle in that critical area acting as reinforcement in case there is a exceptionally hard landing. Dave Paulsen ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: 'pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com' Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Dave, The guide pins don't have to be welded. However, just putting a hole through the axle causes a stress concentration. My axle broke at the guide pin, but my axle was only .120" wall. My new axle will be .188" wall, and I will have it heat treated after welding to raise the yield strength to 105,000 psi, which will make it about 50% stronger (and 8 lbs lighter) than a .25" wall axle non-heat treated. I am also going to change the design of the guide pins to allow the holes through the axle to be on the neutral axis so any stress concentrations caused by the holes will not matter. Jack Phillips Slowly beginning to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know what. The rod can't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Torque Tube Rod
Date: Dec 10, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Neat idea, John. I haden't seen that one before. You actually probably only need one arm on the spreader bar and one on the axle, not two. How well does it hold the axle from shifting sideways? Jack -----Original Message----- Pardon me for jumping into this discussion about how to keep the straight axle from rotating when the brakes are applied. May I suggest an alternative method of doing this so that the axle is free to move in any direction without excessive strain on welded joints? I also believe that the integrity of the axle is not compromised by cutting a hole through it and I think this is a lighter solution to the problem. I have attached a photo of the installation on my ex- "Mountain Piet". You just weld a couple of 3" tabs on the top and bottom of the axle in the middle. Do the same thing on the rear spreader bar. Now drill some 1/4" holes at the top and bottom of the tabs to use Heim joints. Then connect the Heim joints with a 1/2" round aluminum rod drilled and tapped for the 1/4-20 threads of the Heim joints so that when when the whole thing is assembled you have a parallelogram formed by the tabs and links. The system works well. If I were to do it over again, the only change I would make would be to use a rear spreader bar with a little thicker wall so that it is not as apt to bend under loading. Hope this is helpful in your decision. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Rod
Date: Dec 10, 2004
----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Jack, Actually you are right, however, I wanted to divide the load between one link in compression and the other in tension. This is possible by adjusting each link with the female threaded ends and lock nuts so that both will share the load. Mr. Pietenpol just let the axle ride in the "V" angle of the landing gear struts with out worrying about the side to side movement. This movement is pretty well restrained by the bungee cords anyway. When I was first looking into building a Piet, I asked an old timer this very question, and his answer was: "Hell, I just kick the axle back to the center every so often!" Doesn't seem to bother the takeoffs or landings if the axle has shifted slightly. John John Neat idea, John. I haden't seen that one before. You actually probably only need one arm on the spreader bar and one on the axle, not two. How well does it hold the axle from shifting sideways? Jack -----Original Message----- Pardon me for jumping into this discussion about how to keep the straight axle from rotating when the brakes are applied. May I suggest an alternative method of doing this so that the axle is free to move in any direction without excessive strain on welded joints? I also believe that the integrity of the axle is not compromised by cutting a hole through it and I think this is a lighter solution to the problem. I have attached a photo of the installation on my ex- "Mountain Piet". You just weld a couple of 3" tabs on the top and bottom of the axle in the middle. Do the same thing on the rear spreader bar. Now drill some 1/4" holes at the top and bottom of the tabs to use Heim joints. Then connect the Heim joints with a 1/2" round aluminum rod drilled and tapped for the 1/4-20 threads of the Heim joints so that when when the whole thing is assembled you have a parallelogram formed by the tabs and links. The system works well. If I were to do it over again, the only change I would make would be to use a rear spreader bar with a little thicker wall so that it is not as apt to bend under loading. Hope this is helpful in your decision. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Mountain Piet
Date: Dec 10, 2004
Jack and Alex, Since you are both interested in the axle restraining link I used, there are some other pictures of the axle and landing gear details on Oscar Zuniga's website at : http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: repairman
Date: Dec 10, 2004
From the responses, it's obvious things are done differently around the country. I don't expect that the FAA guy is doing anything but his job. I have a very complete builders log and with the very thorough going over I got on my airworthieness inspection with 2 inspectors at the same time, I am ready with a complete operations manual. I just hadn't heard comments on the list about things the inspector had asked for but no one else had been told they need to write and operation manual either. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paulsen" <dpaul(at)fidnet.com>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube
Date: Dec 10, 2004
Thanks John, for the idea and the photos. I can't help but notice that virtually everyone has sanded down or shaped their wooden landing gear struts from the top to the bottom brackets. It does look good and saves weight. However, I once had an off field landing in a Flybaby and the wooden legs broke like toothpicks. So I haven't done any sanding or shaping with the Piet gear thinking that the amount of weight saved may not be worth the loss of extra strength. Any comments? Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube
Date: Dec 10, 2004
----- Original Message ----- From: David Paulsen To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Tube Dave, I suspect that it really depends upon the species of wood that is used in the landing gear. Maybe the Fly Baby used a wood in the gear that was not suitable for shock loads? Or maybe the wood used had flaws in it such as pitch pockets, grain run out, or was not a quarter cut specimen. You might want to get the EAA book "Wood ???" which will give guidelines for suitable woods and the required characteristics for aircraft use. I used two pieces of 1/2" ash laminated together for each gear leg and then used an old fashioned draw knife to form the airfoiled cross section. This gear has survived some terrible landings that I have made without any damage. John Thanks John, for the idea and the photos. I can't help but notice that virtually everyone has sanded down or shaped their wooden landing gear struts from the top to the bottom brackets. It does look good and saves weight. However, I once had an off field landing in a Flybaby and the wooden legs broke like toothpicks. So I haven't done any sanding or shaping with the Piet gear thinking that the amount of weight saved may not be worth the loss of extra strength. Any comments? Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2004
Subject: Landing Gear
I've been reading the posts regarding landing gear and had a 2-cent thought -- kind of like Loyd in "Dumb and Dumber": "Uh, wait a minute...uh, yup, I just had an idea." : ) Is it possible to make the landing gear so bullet-proof that in a forced, really "off-field" landing, the landing gear survives reasonably well but transmits damage to the fuselage proper? Obviously it should be as strong as possible, but I would think in some instances, I'd rather sacrifice the landing gear than the airframe and my bod. Then again, if you wipe out the gear, you'll probably damage the fuselage, too... Was just thinking about it... My plan of the day is to rip some white ash into 2-inch strips for the lower fuselage cross braces... Have a great day, everyone! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2004
Subject: Re: Landing Gear
Good idea, Good thinking. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2004
From: Michael Fisher <mfisher(at)gci.net>
Subject: Modern Ford Engines for the Pietenpol
2004) Pieters, Here is a minor update on alternative engines for the Pietenpol. The following text was copied from an Email to a friend. The airplane referenced is Mountain Piet. This airplane could have been bought for about $9800.00 in damaged condition, as pictured. It was well worth the price. The three-piece wing would have enabled me to keep it in my shop. I suggested to Kitty and Bob that it might be a good thing for their two sons. Its home base was Salida, Colorado, about a two hour drive from their home in Edwards. The way things played out, it was just as well that they were occupied with other projects. This would have been a great little airplane for Talkeetna, Alaska. I could have handled all the repairs except for the fabric and would have asked for your help on that. The buider, John Dilatush, has found new owners who he believes will restore his aircraft with full respect for the original craftsmanship and planning that went into it. I wish them well. Mountain Piet was much too nice to serve as a test-bed for an engine even less proven than the Subaru i.e., my 116 cubic inch inverted Ford Escort, especially over rough country. Work continues on that project. I'm pretty close to spinning it up electrically to check the oiling and coolant circulation systems. When you come up to look at the press-brake, I have a bleed-off resistor for your phase converter. Go to the link below for a great slide show on a very interesting aircraft. Happy landings, Mike http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig R.Lawler" <clawler(at)ptd.net>
Subject: C90 or C85 prop size
Date: Dec 11, 2004
What prop are you guys using with a C-90 or C-85? I have a C-65 now and am getting real serious about changing my engine. We have a 1,200ft strip at home. One person is fine now. It would be nice to continue to haul the neighbor kids around. The C-65 did fine till they got above 70lbs or so. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Landing Gear
Like the oft repeated saying goes " Build it like Bernard did. It works. It's proven." According to the man it has survived landings in plowed fields ACROSS the ridges. From the Flying and Glider Manual; " I say don't go in for the steel tube landing gear. The plans as shown are for a gear similiar to the old Jenny. Of course, you could clean it up some, and you might possibly gain a few feet per mile bettered performance, but inasmuch as the Jenny gear was the creme de la creme of roughneck airplane bottoms, serving for fifteen years the needs of all crash landings of cub pilots, it has proven itself times beyond count." In that same article the plans specify streamlined spruce legs, 1" X 2 1/2" and an ash bottom block, 1 1/4" X 1 3/4". The only reason for using ash here is because the the axle is bashing into it constantly. Which brings up another point. If possible have the ash grain vertical so the axle is riding on the EDGE of the grain. Riding on the flat will cause faster and more significant crushing and bruising of the wood fibres. Witness an ash baseball bat, at least for those others that remember such a thing. The prime reason for using wood quarter grain is because that limits warpage, cupping and twisting. It is also somewhat more supple in that direction. Looks nicer and is more easily carved as well. So dig out the ole' shaving horse and drawknife and have at it as Bernard did. :-) http://www.his.com/~tom/sca/horses.html http://countryworkshops.org/CWshavehorse.html http://memorialhall.mass.edu/activities/media.jsp?itemid7283&img0 http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/A39059.htm Clif, soon to be shaving legs, er, wood. ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 6:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear I've been reading the posts regarding landing gear and had a 2-cent thought -- kind of like Loyd in "Dumb and Dumber": "Uh, wait a minute...uh, yup, I just had an idea." : ) Is it possible to make the landing gear so bullet-proof that in a forced, really "off-field" landing, the landing gear survives reasonably well but transmits damage to the fuselage proper? Obviously it should be as strong as possible, but I would think in some instances, I'd rather sacrifice the landing gear than the airframe and my bod. Then again, if you wipe out the gear, you'll probably damage the fuselage, too... Was just thinking about it... My plan of the day is to rip some white ash into 2-inch strips for the lower fuselage cross braces... Have a great day, everyone! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Shawn Wolk" <shawnwolk(at)sprint.ca>
Subject: RE:C90 or C85 prop size
Date: Dec 12, 2004
Consider going to a two blade Warp Drive prop. You can pitch it to find the best combination of climb and speed. When I switched from a wood Sensenich (I may have been overpropped) the difference was incredible. The A65 powered Piet went from anemic to a blast. At gross (1180#) it now climbs as it did before with no pass. and minimal fuel. I used to use a sprayplane type of t/o run. Holding the plane on the ground with the stick forward to get up some speed. I would usually move the stick forward after the tail come back. Now if I don't move the stick forward the instant the tail comes up, the plane starts to fly. Just put my skis on yesterday, waiting for it to stop snowing so I can go flying. Shawn Wolk C-FRAZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FTLovley(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 12, 2004
Subject: Re: Landing Gear
Of course, Bernard wrote that landing gear statement for the Flying & Glider Manual before he himself switched to a steel tube gear for the 1933 Improved Air Camper. He was talking about not substituting steel for wood in the legs of the straight axle gear. Forrest Lovley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube
Date: Dec 12, 2004
I shaped mine. I'm working on another pair now. I laminate my legs, using 2 pieces of Douglas Fir. You could also sandwich in a piece of 1/8" plywood but I didn't think it was needed. This pair is going to be extra long, 16" from axle to fuse bottom, to accomidate the Rotec radial engine. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Paulsen To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Tube Thanks John, for the idea and the photos. I can't help but notice that virtually everyone has sanded down or shaped their wooden landing gear struts from the top to the bottom brackets. It does look good and saves weight. However, I once had an off field landing in a Flybaby and the wooden legs broke like toothpicks. So I haven't done any sanding or shaping with the Piet gear thinking that the amount of weight saved may not be worth the loss of extra strength. Any comments? Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Torque Tube
Date: Dec 13, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I also laminated my gear struts. Each strut was made of 4 laminations of Sitka Spruce. The undercarriage survived my recent off-airport landing, even thought he axle broke and the plane ground-looped (new axle will be thicker walled, and heat-treated for greater strength). Lamination adds considerable strength and rigidity, and if a crack develops it is generally contained within a single lamination. Jack Phillips ----- Original Message ----- Dave, I suspect that it really depends upon the species of wood that is used in the landing gear. Maybe the Fly Baby used a wood in the gear that was not suitable for shock loads? Or maybe the wood used had flaws in it such as pitch pockets, grain run out, or was not a quarter cut specimen. You might want to get the EAA book "Wood ???" which will give guidelines for suitable woods and the required characteristics for aircraft use. I used two pieces of 1/2" ash laminated together for each gear leg and then used an old fashioned draw knife to form the airfoiled cross section. This gear has survived some terrible landings that I have made without any damage. John Thanks John, for the idea and the photos. I can't help but notice that virtually everyone has sanded down or shaped their wooden landing gear struts from the top to the bottom brackets. It does look good and saves weight. However, I once had an off field landing in a Flybaby and the wooden legs broke like toothpicks. So I haven't done any sanding or shaping with the Piet gear thinking that the amount of weight saved may not be worth the loss of extra strength. Any comments? Dave Paulsen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Landing Gear
Date: Dec 13, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Hi Fred, You don't want the gear to be so strong that it survives a really hard landing, only to transmit devastating loads to the airframe. Recommended G loading for landing gear to withstand is about 3.1 G's. My axle was good for a little over 2 G's, and that was not enough. My new axle will be capable of withstanding loads of 3.8 G's without yielding. Jack -----Original Message----- I've been reading the posts regarding landing gear and had a 2-cent thought -- kind of like Loyd in "Dumb and Dumber": "Uh, wait a minute...uh, yup, I just had an idea." : ) Is it possible to make the landing gear so bullet-proof that in a forced, really "off-field" landing, the landing gear survives reasonably well but transmits damage to the fuselage proper? Obviously it should be as strong as possible, but I would think in some instances, I'd rather sacrifice the landing gear than the airframe and my bod. Then again, if you wipe out the gear, you'll probably damage the fuselage, too... Was just thinking about it... My plan of the day is to rip some white ash into 2-inch strips for the lower fuselage cross braces... Have a great day, everyone! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: RE:C90 or C85 prop size
Date: Dec 13, 2004
Shawn What is the model # of that warp drive prop? I would like to look into that. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shawn Wolk To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 2:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE:C90 or C85 prop size Consider going to a two blade Warp Drive prop. You can pitch it to find the best combination of climb and speed. When I switched from a wood Sensenich (I may have been overpropped) the difference was incredible. The A65 powered Piet went from anemic to a blast. At gross (1180#) it now climbs as it did before with no pass. and minimal fuel. I used to use a sprayplane type of t/o run. Holding the plane on the ground with the stick forward to get up some speed. I would usually move the stick forward after the tail come back. Now if I don't move the stick forward the instant the tail comes up, the plane starts to fly. Just put my skis on yesterday, waiting for it to stop snowing so I can go flying. Shawn Wolk C-FRAZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Dick--- All I had to do was have the guy who inspected my plane go over to the FSDO office (or he called them I think) and tell them that I was coming down to fill out the paper work for the repairman certificate. Your Airworthiness Certificate with your name as the Manufacturer is proof that you built it and no other exam or crap should be required. I'd tell those boys to stuff it. Mike C. >Dick. It sounds like you're just dealing with typical beaurocratic FAA >crap. I thought that typically one could simply apply for the repairman >certificate at the time of inspection/airworthiness certificate. That's >what I am doing. > >You should ask that "examiner" how many airplanes he's built and >flown. Tell him to call you Monday for an appointment so he can block out >an hour of HIS time, come to your hangar, and you'll give him an hours >instruction on how to build an airplane. Tell him you'll even do it at no >charge - cause your a nice guy. > > >I'll send you the rest of MY ADVICE off list. > >See ya, >Bert > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:horzpool(at)goldengate.net>Richard Navratil >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman > >I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my >application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally >called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for >next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss >construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has >anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very >strict standards? >Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cgalley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman
Date: Dec 13, 2004
I'm sorry to disagree but the FSDO man is following the guide lines and doing his job the way it is supposed to be done. Why cause problems as he can deny the certificate and then how do you get it? Some one said, "Don't ruffle the feathers of the eagle!" Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D Cuy To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Dick--- All I had to do was have the guy who inspected my plane go over to the FSDO office (or he called them I think) and tell them that I was coming down to fill out the paper work for the repairman certificate. Your Airworthiness Certificate with your name as the Manufacturer is proof that you built it and no other exam or crap should be required. I'd tell those boys to stuff it. Mike C. Dick. It sounds like you're just dealing with typical beaurocratic FAA crap. I thought that typically one could simply apply for the repairman certificate at the time of inspection/airworthiness certificate. That's what I am doing. You should ask that "examiner" how many airplanes he's built and flown. Tell him to call you Monday for an appointment so he can block out an hour of HIS time, come to your hangar, and you'll give him an hours instruction on how to build an airplane. Tell him you'll even do it at no charge - cause your a nice guy. I'll send you the rest of MY ADVICE off list. See ya, Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Fly Baby gear
Dave-- the Piet axle has suspension, the Fly Baby (as you know) does not. The only thing that cushions your landings in a Fly Baby are the tires. We had a Fly Baby that made a hard landing here too a few years ago and the gear legs shattered like toothpicks---laminated too they are ! I would have no reservation in sanding down the gear legs on a Piet to an airfoil/teardrop shape again. Our strength in the Piets gear legs comes from those two sets of X brace cables----and boy is that gear ever tough. A local pilot used to always tell me how "frail" the gear legs looked but I could never convince the hard head that the strength of the gear is in the cable bracing. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: C90 or C85 prop size
Date: Dec 13, 2004
Craig, I have a new Warp Drive to use with my Corvair engine. I bought the 68" dia. and being ground adjustable, I can make it any pitch for what ever purpose. William Wynne gave it high marks as that is what he had used on his Pietenpol so I ordered it from him. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- > > What prop are you guys using with a C-90 or C-85? I have a C-65 now and > am getting real serious about changing my engine. We have a 1,200ft > strip at home. One person is fine now. It would be nice to continue to > haul the neighbor kids around. The C-65 did fine till they got above > 70lbs or so. > > Craig > > > > > > > > > Craig, I have a new Warp Drive to use with my Corvair engine. I bought the 68" dia. and being ground adjustable, I can make it any pitch for what ever purpose. William Wynne gave it high marks as that is what he had used on his Pietenpol so I ordered it from him. Alex S. ======================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Landing Gear
Date: Dec 13, 2004
Jack, Will your new axle be 1 1/2" X .120? Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- Hi Fred, You dont want the gear to be so strong that it survives a really hard landing, only to transmit devastating loads to the airframe. Recommended G loading for landing gear to withstand is about 3.1 Gs. My axle was good for a little over 2 Gs, and that was not enough. My new axle will be capable of withstanding loads of 3.8 Gs without yielding. Jack -----Original Message----- I've been reading the posts regarding landing gear and had a 2-cent thought -- kind of like Loyd in "Dumb and Dumber": "Uh, wait a minute...uh, yup, I just had an idea." : ) Is it possible to make the landing gear so bullet-proof that in a forced, really "off-field" landing, the landing gear survives reasonably well but transmits damage to the fuselage proper? Obviously it should be as strong as possible, but I would think in some instances, I'd rather sacrifice the landing gear than the airframe and my bod. Then again, if you wipe out the gear, you'll probably damage the fuselage, too... Was just thinking about it... My plan of the day is to rip some white ash into 2-inch strips for the lower fuselage cross braces... Have a great day, everyone! Fred B. Jack, Will your new axle be 1 1/2" X .120? Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- Hi Fred, You dont want the gear to be so strong that it survives a really hard landing, only to transmit devastating loads to the airframe. Recommended G loading for landing gear to withstand is about 3.1 Gs. My axle was good for a little over 2 Gs, and that was not enough. My new axle will be capable of withstanding loads of 3.8 Gs without yielding. Jack
-----Original Message-----
I've been reading the posts regarding landing gear and had a 2-cent thought -- kind of like Loyd in "Dumb and Dumber": "Uh, wait a minute...uh, yup, I just had an idea." : )

Is it possible to make the landing gear so bullet-proof that in a forced, really "off-field" landing, the landing gear survives reasonably well but transmits damage to the fuselage proper? Obviously it should be as strong as possible, but I would think in some instances, I'd rather sacrifice the landing gear than the airframe and my bod. Then again, if you wipe out the gear, you'll probably damage the fuselage, too... Was just thinking about it...

My plan of the day is to rip some white ash into 2-inch strips for the lower fuselage cross braces...

Have a great day, everyone!
Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Fly Baby gear
Date: Dec 13, 2004
Well, I think the cables may actually provide only minimal compressive strength at landing. It does seem to me that the real benefit at landing is in the compression of the spruce gear legs themselves. In my incredibly naive, rather short sighted, no engineering background, usually don't know what the heck I'm talking about....opinion......BHP's design is well within safe limits. The maximum compressive crushing strength parallel to the grain of spruce being 5650 lbs per square inch, in addition to the shock absorbing properties of the bungy, probably explains why this design has been working pretty darn well for over 70 years..... :-) I may be using the wrong number from the spruce strength table but even if I use any of the other small numbers (except the tension numbers), I'm still ok.... Jim in Plano..... > Dave-- the Piet axle has suspension, the Fly Baby (as you know) does > not. The only thing that cushions your landings in a Fly Baby > are the tires. We had a Fly Baby that made a hard landing here too a > few years ago and the gear legs shattered like toothpicks---laminated too > they are ! > I would have no reservation in sanding down the gear legs on a Piet to an > airfoil/teardrop shape again. Our strength in the Piets gear legs comes > from those two sets of X brace cables----and boy is that gear ever > tough. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Landing Gear
Date: Dec 13, 2004
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
No, it will be 1-1/2" x .188" wall, heat treated to 160,000 psi ultimate tensile strength, which should give a yield strength of about 105,000 psi. That will be stronger than a non heat treated axle of 1-1/2" x .25" wall, and about 8 lbs lighter. 4130 can be heat treated up to about 225,000 psi ultimate, but there would be little toughness and it would be pretty brittle. I must admit I was a little shocked when I ran a stress analysis on my axle and found it only good for a little over 2 G's. I had not analyzed it before, trusting to make it like others before me, although now I can't remember who told me they had used .120 wall. I can tell you from personal experience that 2 G's is not strong enough. I have the new material on hand now and hope to take Friday off from work and spend the day fabricating my new axle. I am trying to line up a heat treat facility (there are several in this area) that will do it for me at a reasonable price. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: alexms1(at)comcast.net [mailto:alexms1(at)comcast.net] Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Jack, Will your new axle be 1 1/2" X .120? Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- Hi Fred, You don't want the gear to be so strong that it survives a really hard landing, only to transmit devastating loads to the airframe. Recommended G loading for landing gear to withstand is about 3.1 G's. My axle was good for a little over 2 G's, and that was not enough. My new axle will be capable of withstanding loads of 3.8 G's without yielding. Jack -----Original Message----- I've been reading the posts regarding landing gear and had a 2-cent thought -- kind of like Loyd in "Dumb and Dumber": "Uh, wait a minute...uh, yup, I just had an idea." : ) Is it possible to make the landing gear so bullet-proof that in a forced, really "off-field" landing, the landing gear survives reasonably well but transmits damage to the fuselage proper? Obviously it should be as strong as possible, but I would think in some instances, I'd rather sacrifice the landing gear than the airframe and my bod. Then again, if you wipe out the gear, you'll probably damage the fuselage, too.... Was just thinking about it... My plan of the day is to rip some white ash into 2-inch strips for the lower fuselage cross braces... Have a great day, everyone! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Landing Gear
Date: Dec 13, 2004
Hi Forrest, Did Bernard consider the steel tube gear more robust than the wood gear? Or was the change simply to keep up with the current trends in airplanes at the time? Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: <FTLovley(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear > FTLovley(at)aol.com > > Of course, Bernard wrote that landing gear > statement for the Flying & Glider > Manual before he himself switched to a > steel tube gear for the 1933 Improved > Air Camper. He was talking about not > substituting steel for wood in the legs > of the straight axle gear. > Forrest Lovley > >

November 20, 2004 - December 13, 2004

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ef