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From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my =93incident=94 though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP

-----Original Message-----

I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairsor other specialty fieldswho arent an AP need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same.

The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it.

It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy.

Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>

Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR**
Date: Dec 20, 2004
what a big pot of shit. I'd be inclined to go with option 3 for the time being. to hell with them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building. Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a 600 mile round trip is an unreasonable hardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA) designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came to MY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough to BUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about $100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector to do it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed big dollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. With THEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three other recent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel (hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidently some FSDOs require a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1) Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either - but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3) Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspection Sunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my "incident" though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairs or other specialty fields who arent an A&P need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same. The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it. It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy. Dick N. what a big pot of shit. I'd be inclined to go with option 3 for the time being. to hell with them.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building.Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a600 mile round trip is an unreasonablehardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA)designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came toMY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough toBUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about$100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector todo it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed bigdollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. WithTHEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three otherrecent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel(hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidentlysome FSDOsrequire a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1)Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either- but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3)Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspectionSunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my =93incident=94 though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairsor other specialty fieldswho arent an AP need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same.
The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it.
It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy.
Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 20, 2004

Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR**
-------------------------------1103591009 Bert, There's a hotline you can call to report bad service like that from the FAA. Maybe somebody on the board knows what it is. You don't have to put up with that sort of treatment. Tom Travis -------------------------------1103591009 Bert, There's a hotline you can call to report bad service like that=20from the FAA. Maybe somebody on the board knows what it is. You don't have to put up with that sort of treatment. Tom Travis -------------------------------1103591009-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR**
Bert, sounds like you are getting the royal shaft and government run-a-round. They probably turned your request over to some wet-behind-the-ears newbie who is probably right out of A&P school and who wants to flaunt his "authority" around like some kind of peacock. I would go with option 3 or I would write to some congressmen and senators. That kind of clout usually gets more response. Another way to handle this situation is to make good friend with an A&P, IA and work out a deal with him. You do the inspections and he signs off on them. Of course, you want to be generous and you want to allow him to get to know you and your work and let him look over your work if he wants to, but that is one way to get around having to pay for expensive annuals. If they give me that kind of run-around, I'll get pissed too. Just my 2 cents worth. Doc > __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>

Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR**
Date: Dec 20, 2004
Hey Bert, I sure wish I had your problems....... Still building very slowly in Sacramento Chris Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building. Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a 600 mile round trip is an unreasonable hardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA) designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came to MY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough to BUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about $100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector to do it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed big dollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. With THEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three other recent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel (hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidently some FSDOs require a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1) Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either - but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3) Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspection Sunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my "incident" though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairs or other specialty fields who arent an A&P need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same. The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it. It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy. Dick N. Hey Bert, I sure wish I had your problems....... Still building very slowly in Sacramento Chris Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building.Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a600 mile round trip is an unreasonablehardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA)designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came toMY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough toBUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about$100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector todo it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed bigdollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. WithTHEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three otherrecent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel(hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidentlysome FSDOsrequire a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1)Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either- but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3)Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspectionSunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my =93incident=94 though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairsor other specialty fieldswho arent an AP need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same.
The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it.
It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy.
Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Plyn4par(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 21, 2004
Subject: Hello
SUB_HELLO 2.46 SUB_HELLO Subject starts with "Hello" Im another Piet producer, hopefully by sept of 05 she'll be close to go, thanks...Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>

Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR**
Date: Dec 21, 2004
Bert There is an option #4 You can do it in Tampa while en-route to SNF. You don't need it till annual is due. Good going on the sign off. I hope the first flight goes well. Get a lawn chair and a beer or 2 and sit and appreciate what you have done. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building. Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a 600 mile round trip is an unreasonable hardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA) designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came to MY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough to BUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about $100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector to do it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed big dollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. With THEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three other recent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel (hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidently some FSDOs require a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1) Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either - but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3) Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspection Sunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my "incident" though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairs or other specialty fields who arent an A&P need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same. The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it. It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy. Dick N. Bert There is an option #4 You can do it in Tampa while en-route to SNF. You don't need it till annual is due. Good going on the sign off. I hope the first flight goes well. Get a lawn chair and a beer or 2and sit and appreciate what you have done. Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building.Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a600 mile round trip is an unreasonablehardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA)designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came toMY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough toBUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about$100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector todo it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed bigdollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. WithTHEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three otherrecent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel(hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidentlysome FSDOsrequire a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1)Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either- but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3)Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspectionSunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my =93incident=94 though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairsor other specialty fieldswho arent an AP need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same.
The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it.
It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy.
Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2004
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
CR**
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA
CR** Some food for thought: The FAA is chunked up into regions. Last year I found out from an airplane-geek friend in the Chicago area (Great Lakes Region) that airplanes and mechanics from the Southeast Region and Alaska are considered (unspoken, of course) questionable. I guess there were enough people doing repairs who weren't legal, shoddy repairs, or pencil-whipping log books in those areas that the word got out. Some of it made the news. Some of it made the local scuttlebut if you're spliced into the local pilots, and I'm sure a bunch of it still goes on unnnoticed.You may be suffering the tail end of the the Southeast Region trying to get some credibility back by unreasonably tighening up on dotting all the i's and crossing the t's. Jim Ash >Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the >FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to >Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a >repairman certificate - on an airplane I .... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 21, 2004
Subject: Re: Hello
In a message dated 12/21/04 11:18:05 AM Central Standard Time, Plyn4par(at)wmconnect.com writes: << Im another Piet producer, hopefully by sept of 05 she'll be close to go, thanks...Bob >> Bob, Please tell us about your project, and yourself. Chuck Gantzer Wichita KS NX770CG Pietenpols Forever !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 21, 2004

Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR**
In a message dated 12/21/04 8:14:46 PM Central Standard Time, ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes: << You may be suffering the tail end of the the Southeast Region trying to get some credibility back by unreasonably tighening up on dotting all the i's and crossing the t's. >> That explains a lot. Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chad Johnson" <flynpiper(at)cox.net>
Subject: Hello again
Date: Dec 21, 2004
2.46 SUB_HELLO Subject starts with "Hello" Hello again Chuck and the list. The building bug is starting to bite again. There is another guy here in Mac that is starting the building process and I think we will be able to team up. We are looking for a good wood souce to start. Thanks for keeping this awsome resource going. Chad Johnson McPherson, Kansas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 22, 2004
Subject: Re: Hello again
In a message dated 12/21/04 11:13:54 PM Central Standard Time, flynpiper(at)cox.net writes: << Hello again Chuck and the list. The building bug is starting to bite again. There is another guy here in Mac that is starting the building process and I think we will be able to team up. We are looking for a good wood souce to start. Thanks for keeping this awsome resource going. Chad Johnson McPherson, Kansas >> Hey Chad !! Good to hear the bug has bit you !! I tried to e-mail you last summer, but you must have changed your e-mail. Gus Wiebie at Halstead airport is close to you, and a very good source for spars, wood, and used airplane parts. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chad Johnson" <flynpiper(at)cox.net>
Subject:
Date: Dec 21, 2004
My new email is flynpiper(at)cox.net. I've been flying my uncles Kolb firestar and having a blast. I acquired a Sonerai project but sold it because I am not much of a welder. I just keep coming back to the old piet. For those of you that know Chris Price from Broadhead, he says hi. I fly with Chris at Air Wisconsin. Chris's Health Parasol won a float plane award at last years Oshkosh. Thanks for the suggestions Chuck. I will be in touch I am sure. Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fox, John" <John.Fox(at)na.SunChem.com>
Subject: Winter construction
Date: Dec 22, 2004
Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in any form or take any action in reliance on it. Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in any form or take any action in reliance on it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Winter construction
Date: Dec 22, 2004
John, I am using T88 and working with the understanding it will work in temps down to 35-40 degrees. I glue up when it is in the high 40's and at night it may get down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop and it has warmed back up and all seems to be O.K. Test pieces always seem to be strong. Alex Sloan -------------- Original message -------------- Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in any form or take any action in reliance on it. John, I am using T88 and working with the understanding it will work in temps down to 35-40 degrees. I glue up when it is in the high 40's and at night it may get down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop and it has warmed back up and all seems to be O.K. Test pieces always seem to be strong. Alex Sloan
-------------- Original message -------------- Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in any form or take any action in reliance on it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
John, I think the company advertises the glue to be useful down to 34 degrees F. I think also that Tony Bengellis recommends not to glue (not sure if he was specific about T-88 or not) below 70 degrees. I have used T-88 successfully down to 60, but below that the glue gets very thick and difficult to work with. It seems to adhere quite well though. Doc --- "Fox, John" wrote: > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 > epoxy? I would like to > do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but > am worried about the > glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above > freezing but still get > quite cold. > > John Fox > > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary > or legally privileged information and is > intended only for the use of the addressee named > above. No confidentiality or privilege is > waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you > are not the intended recipient of this > message you are hereby notified that you must not > use, disseminate, copy it in any form or > take any action in reliance on it. __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
I would like to add to Alex's comment though that I recall the company recommending that the glued joint be exposed to 70 degrees for at least 24 hours before heavy loads are attempted. I think I am correct in that. Doc --- alexms1(at)comcast.net wrote: > John, > I am using T88 and working with the understanding it > will work in temps down to 35-40 degrees. I glue up > when it is in the high 40's and at night it may get > down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop > and it has warmed back up and all seems to be O.K. > Test pieces always seem to be strong. > Alex Sloan > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 > epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my > garage this winter, but am worried about the glue > not curing properly. Temperatures are above > freezing but still get quite cold. > John Fox > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary > or legally privileged information and is > intended only for the use of the addressee named > above. No confidentiality or privilege is > waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you > are not the intended recipient of this > message you are hereby notified that you must not > use, disseminate, copy it in any form or > take any action in reliance on it. __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Winter construction
Date: Dec 22, 2004
Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions. This means that the reaction will continue until complete, but the reaction rate varies with the ambient temperature. All manufacturers report their data at 25 degree C., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities, etc. The chemical reaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees C you vary from the 25 degree reported data you will double your reaction rate or you'll halve the reaction rate if you're going down in temps. Soooooo, you could expect at 40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate about 4 times slower than at 25 degree C. Generally speaking all room temp, hand laminating epoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure completely in less than 14 days. Soooooo, I would not put too much stress on your 40 F hand laminate for about 45 days. Better yet, build a "hot room" under your workbench by stapling plastic film around the edges or some insulation foam, and put in a small space heater. Give it about 7 days under the "curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait until next summer, it's just 180 days until first day of summer. Gordon Bowen Original Message: ----------------- From: Fox, John John.Fox(at)na.SunChem.com Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:34:08 -0600 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in any form or take any action in reliance on it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
Date: Dec 22, 2004
the key to using T-88 in cold climates is to have the glue warmed to around 80-90F prior the intial mixing. This will speed up the curing process and produce a good joint in shorter amount of time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction > > > John, I think the company advertises the glue to be > useful down to 34 degrees F. I think also that Tony > Bengellis recommends not to glue (not sure if he was > specific about T-88 or not) below 70 degrees. I have > used T-88 successfully down to 60, but below that the > glue gets very thick and difficult to work with. It > seems to adhere quite well though. > > Doc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2004
From: Garry Low <hux58(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
--- "Fox, John" wrote: > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 > epoxy? I would like to > do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but > am worried about the > glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above > freezing but still get > quite cold. > might want to use a heat lamp for your containers of glue,this would at least help your batches be easier to work. Garry Low > John Fox > > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary > or legally privileged information and is > intended only for the use of the addressee named > above. No confidentiality or privilege is > waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you > are not the intended recipient of this > message you are hereby notified that you must not > use, disseminate, copy it in any form or > take any action in reliance on it. __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
Date: Dec 22, 2004
I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers. They recommend 50 deg. I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fox, John To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in any form or take any action in reliance on it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
I started taking the glue bottles inside the house and let them get to ambient temp. This works very well too. --- Garry Low wrote: > > > --- "Fox, John" wrote: > > > > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for > T88 > > epoxy? I would like to > > do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, > but > > am worried about the > > glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above > > freezing but still get > > quite cold. > > might want to use a heat lamp for your containers > of > glue,this would at least help your batches be easier > to work. > Garry Low > > John Fox > > > > > > > > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary > > or legally privileged information and is > > intended only for the use of the addressee named > > above. No confidentiality or privilege is > > waived or lost by any error in transmission. If > you > > are not the intended recipient of this > > message you are hereby notified that you must not > > use, disseminate, copy it in any form or > > take any action in reliance on it. > > > > > __________________________________ > search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Winter construction
Most of the glue joints I making now probably won't fly for another year yet (sigh) so I guess I'm ok. :) I'm using heaters to get the garage (workshop)up to around 60 degrees, so that helps. Doc --- "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" wrote: > "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" > > Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions. > This means that the > reaction will continue until complete, but the > reaction rate varies with > the ambient temperature. All manufacturers report > their data at 25 degree > C., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities, > etc. The chemical > reaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees > C you vary from the 25 > degree reported data you will double your reaction > rate or you'll halve the > reaction rate if you're going down in temps. > Soooooo, you could expect at > 40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate > about 4 times slower > than at 25 degree C. Generally speaking all room > temp, hand laminating > epoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure > completely in less > than 14 days. Soooooo, I would not put too much > stress on your 40 F hand > laminate for about 45 days. Better yet, build a > "hot room" under your > workbench by stapling plastic film around the edges > or some insulation > foam, and put in a small space heater. Give it > about 7 days under the > "curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait > until next summer, it's > just 180 days until first day of summer. > Gordon Bowen > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Fox, John John.Fox(at)na.SunChem.com > Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:34:08 -0600 > To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction > > > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 > epoxy? I would like to > do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but > am worried about the > glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above > freezing but still get > quite cold. > > John Fox > > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary > or legally privileged > information and is > intended only for the use of the addressee named > above. No confidentiality > or privilege is > waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you > are not the intended > recipient of this > message you are hereby notified that you must not > use, disseminate, copy it > in any form or > take any action in reliance on it. > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John E. Joyce" <jayejay(at)comcast.net>
on the Web
Subject: Winter construction - Manufacturer's Info on the Web
Date: Dec 22, 2004
Folks: Check out System Three's website at http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp T-88 spec sheet http://www.systemthree.com/members/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf T-88 MSDS http://www.systemthree.com/msds/MSDS_T-88.pdf John John Joyce North Reading, Massachusetts -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galen Hutcheson Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction Most of the glue joints I making now probably won't fly for another year yet (sigh) so I guess I'm ok. :) I'm using heaters to get the garage (workshop)up to around 60 degrees, so that helps. Doc --- "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" wrote: > "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" > > Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions. > This means that the > reaction will continue until complete, but the > reaction rate varies with > the ambient temperature. All manufacturers report > their data at 25 degree > C., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities, > etc. The chemical > reaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees > C you vary from the 25 > degree reported data you will double your reaction > rate or you'll halve the > reaction rate if you're going down in temps. > Soooooo, you could expect at > 40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate > about 4 times slower > than at 25 degree C. Generally speaking all room > temp, hand laminating > epoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure > completely in less > than 14 days. Soooooo, I would not put too much > stress on your 40 F hand > laminate for about 45 days. Better yet, build a > "hot room" under your > workbench by stapling plastic film around the edges > or some insulation > foam, and put in a small space heater. Give it > about 7 days under the > "curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait > until next summer, it's > just 180 days until first day of summer. > Gordon Bowen > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Fox, John John.Fox(at)na.SunChem.com > Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:34:08 -0600 > To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction > > > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 > epoxy? I would like to > do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but > am worried about the > glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above > freezing but still get > quite cold. > > John Fox > > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary > or legally privileged > information and is > intended only for the use of the addressee named > above. No confidentiality > or privilege is > waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you > are not the intended > recipient of this > message you are hereby notified that you must not > use, disseminate, copy it > in any form or > take any action in reliance on it. > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
<001a01c4e88b$d3169ff0$0600a8c0@laptop> http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp http://www.systemthree.com/members/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf The first link is their homepage. Go here and sign in as a member. The second is direct to the pdf tech pages for T88. The second page tells you that it is formulated for full strength cure down to 35=B0 F, just takes a lot longer. Be carefull with heating and mixing. I warmed mine in hot water and it hardened before the pieces were properly put together.Good thing it was something small!! On page one you will see a shear verses temp blurb on glue/Alum. I take this to mean the glue failed. IF this is so then the same would apply to wood/glue. IF this is so then spruce, at a shear strength of 1120 lb would equal the T88 strength at approx 170=B0. This doesn't sound good until you calculate the square inches of material being glued and realize that the OVERALL strength of that joint probably exceeds the required strength by a fair margin. If you have a joint that will be subjected to no more than 1000 lb but the area of that joint is 3 sq in. then the joint is capable of handling 3000 lb at 180=B0 so will be safe to some higher temp. A good thing if you live in Florida or Texas. None of our flying planes have fallen apart yet even though some have some pretty dark paint on them. If you want Wood Strength tables go here. Scroll to the bottom; http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html Clif ----- Original Message ----- I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers. They recommend 50 deg. I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight. Dick Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: Winter construction
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Since I spent the last 40 years of my working life as a chemist in the epoxy and urethane industry, including formulating Rutan's Rutan Aircraft Epoxy for the first Vari and Longeze's and Saf-t-poxy, feel homebuilders can benefit from a few tips that we didn't put on "official" data sheets. 1) Don't believe everything you read. Data sheets are sales tools used by manufacturers to sell more product. I've "doctored" enough data sheets in my working life to fill a book, due to the request of the guys in sales. Every technical data point has a range, the sales guys always want the most attactive, not the mean or average data point. 2) Almost every hand lamination resin starts with Epon 828 (formerly Shell) as the feed stock. There's 80 custom manufacturers of epoxy systems in the USA alone, including System 3. Every one of them uses Shell's Epon 828, it's the industry standard. This basic resin is cut with reactive and unreactive solvents, because it's too high in viscosity to use by hand laminators. 3) Reactive solvents are more costly but more functional for homebuilders than non-reactive solvents. The cheaper the solvent the cheaper you can sell you epoxy system. So don't buy your resin system based on price. 4) The reaction rate rule of thumb previously given is good for all non-catalyst type reactions. Polyesters and derakane vinyl esters are catalyst type reactions. If you lower the temperature of cure of an epoxy amount of time it takes to come to full cure. 5) Most all hand-laminates never come to full cure. The only way to get a full cure on an epoxy is to get the temperature of the laminate up to the glass transition temperature of the resin, or about 180 degrees F. 6) No matter what is says on any data sheet, you will not get full physical properties unless the epoxy has seen it's Tg. You get very close but no max properties are possible without a post cure of the laminate. 4 hours at 180F is the standard post cure given a laminate in the labs before physicals are tested and reported. 7) If you warm the resin to 25C before using your get the approx. mixed viscosity and gel times reported by the manufacture, but as soon as you smear it on your work, all bets are off. The gel and cure times change dependent on the mass (ie. a thin film takes longer to cure) and the ambient temperature. 8) Back to thread- working in cold climate. a) buy System 3's fast amine, b) experiment until you know the working time you've got, and vary the batch size to make it all smeared out before it gels. c) make yourself a little "postcuring" oven out of your workbench. d) don't be afraid to experiment a little, the only thing you can screw up is the mix ratio of part A to part B. As long as you keep this ratio as posted by the manufacturer, you cannot go wrong. Gordon Bowen Original Message: ----------------- From: Clif Dawson CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:06:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp http://www.systemthree.com/members/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf The first link is their homepage. Go here and sign in as a member. The second is direct to the pdf tech pages for T88. The second page tells you that it is formulated for full strength cure down to 35 F, just takes a lot longer. Be carefull with heating and mixing. I warmed mine in hot water and it hardened before the pieces were properly put together.Good thing it was something small!! On page one you will see a shear verses temp blurb on glue/Alum. I take this to mean the glue failed. IF this is so then the same would apply to wood/glue. IF this is so then spruce, at a shear strength of 1120 lb would equal the T88 strength at approx 170. This doesn't sound good until you calculate the square inches of material being glued and realize that the OVERALL strength of that joint probably exceeds the required strength by a fair margin. If you have a joint that will be subjected to no more than 1000 lb but the area of that joint is 3 sq in. then the joint is capable of handling 3000 lb at 180 so will be safe to some higher temp. A good thing if you live in Florida or Texas. None of our flying planes have fallen apart yet even though some have some pretty dark paint on them. If you want Wood Strength tables go here. Scroll to the bottom; http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html Clif ----- Original Message ----- I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers. They recommend 50 deg. I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight. Dick Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold. John Fox ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Subject: Correct resin for fiberglass fuel tank?
I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? #2. What weave material is recommended? Thanks, Sterling ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Correct resin for fiberglass fuel tank?
Date: Dec 23, 2004
I bought mine from ACS. Check page 34 in cataloug un the heading of Polyester Resins, read carefully. You will want to use #6060-5 resin. You will need to use a combination of heavy roving and mat. If you havent done fiberglass work before you may want to do some reading on it or get with someone from your EAA chapter first. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Correct resin for fiberglass fuel tank? I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? #2. What weave material is recommended? Thanks, Sterling ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Subject: Fiberglass Construction
In a message dated 12/23/04 1:00:37 PM Central Standard Time, N321TX(at)wmconnect.com writes: << I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? #2. What weave material is recommended? Thanks, Sterling >> Sterling, Are you using the fuel tank mould that I loaned you ? If so, please use enough release agent, so as not to destroy it !! There is a couple of other folks that will need it. It's a really good mould (capacity - 10.7 gal.), and we can pass it around to others, when you are done with it. (It is for the nose cowling fuel tank for plans dimension short fuselage.) I designed it so the bottom of the tank slopes forward, when the tail is on the ground, so any water in the fuel finds it's way to the outlet. There is no place where a pocket of water will collect. I might need it again, too, if I ever get any alcohol in my fuel !! Here is the way I built both my tanks, and J3 type nose bowl: I used Polyester Resin (for auto body repair) on both tanks. It's cheaper than Epoxy, and is a lower viscosity which aids in wetting out the fabric. However, if I build another tank, I will use the West System Epoxy Resin 105, with the 206 hardener. If you go this route, it is very convenient to buy the pumps that go with the cans, which dispenses the material at the proper ratio. Never handle any cloth with your bare hands, or touch any area where you are going to do an additional lay-up, or skin oil will prevent the resin from saturating the cloth in that area. You have to be FAST if you use the Polyester Resin, because after you put the hardener in...it Kicks in only about 5 to 7 minutes, depending on how many drops you put in. West System has a lot longer pot life (work time). Have all the fabric cut, pre-fit, and stacked in the order they lay. I can't say enough about preparation, before you add the hardener. You can lengthen the working time some, by using a few drops less than recommended, but once it starts to jell, forget about proceeding any further. The challenge of doing composite work, is to get 100% saturation, using as little resin as possible, with no fabric separation. The way we achieve this at work, is 'Vacuum Bagging'. One of the faults of the Polyester Resin, is that it is NOT alcohol resistant. So far, I haven't had any problem. Fiberglass Cloth: I have a source here in Wichita, where I purchase the cloth, in all sizes. It ain't cheap !! Seems like I had over $35 or $40 bucks for the cloth in the nose tank and nose bowl. I used two different weigh fabric - Light weight, and Medium weight. The first layer down, I used light weight. Then two layers of medium weight, then the last layer down in the Mould I used another layer of light weight. The difficult part is to get the cloth to stay down in the corners. It always wants to spring back out of the inside corners, no matter how many times you poke it back in. Light weigh cloth stays down in the corners much easier, because the cloth is thinner, and bends easier. This is the reason I used corner pieces in the mould, so the fabric only has to form to 45, instead of 90. After the resin cures, and you pop the bottom and top out of the mould, you need to carefully sand the edges, so you get a nice tight fit, preferably a 45 miter fit (that's what I did) then glue them together with the resin you've been using. After they are glued together, put 3 layers around the entire corner edge, stepping out from 2" for the first layer down, up to about 4" for the last layer down. You always have to sand the shinny off, before adding any additional layers. After complete, leak test with a balloon, like Tony Bengalis recommends. Then you should calibrate it at the gas station. Set the tank in the static laden position (the angle it will be at when the tail is on the ground), and add one gallon of fuel at a time, dip your 'Calibrated Dip Stick' in, and mark each gallon increment. The distance between these marks vary, because of the shape of the tank. I didn't have any leaks in either of the fuel tanks I built. I built the Smoke Tank with just two layers of fiberglass, moulded around cereal box the right dimension, but used the West System Epoxy. It seemed like the cloth was wetted out good, but it had two places where the baby oil seeped through, and dripped about one drip every 6 minutes. I fixed them by cleaning first with Brake Clean, then sanding the area, then some more Brake Clean (with clean cloth and no finger prints), then used 5 minute epoxy, and two layers of cloth. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG Merry Christmas To All !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Correct resin for fiberglass fuel tank?
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Spruce and Wicks both carry a glass weave called 7781. It's a tight weave in the satin style that drapes over edges very nicely. Stay away from "box weaves" because they give you problems in compound curves. Just about any good laminating epoxy resin will work, but Derakane epoxy based vinyl ester has better chemical resistance. You work Derakane just like you do a polyester (ie. boat type resins). A little dab of catalyst, you have to work in small batches. Whatever you do don't use polyester resin on gas tank, it'll get "fried" by the fuel additives and leak. EZ Poxy and Aeropoxy were both approved by Rutan for composite fuel tanks. I ain't got no dog in that fight no more, but I still use EZ Poxy from Epoxical for my laminates. My Piete rebuild came with a galvanized steel tank but if I were going to build a fuel tank today I'd use the following technique: 1) shape a block of styrofoam to fit the area you want, round the corners for ease of lay-up 2) laminate over the carved block with min. 6 plies of 7781 glass and Derakane. Derakane doesn't need a post cure to completely cure but I'd let 3 weeks pass at Room Temp (25C) before I put fuel in any composite tank. 3) Put the drains and vent blocks thru a 1/4" aluminium block I'd laminate into the first 3 plies and cover with balance of plies. Laminate in the filler cap ring, too. 4) drill and tap the al block for the fittings. 5) Cut the entire laminate and foam block in half 6) use acetone or gasoline to dissolve the foam and pour out the mess. 7) using min. 4 strips of glass and Derakane reglue the now empty tank back together. Piete purest can forget the above techique. Back to the dark ages. Gordon Bowen Original Message: ----------------- From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:59:43 EST Subject: Pietenpol-List: Correct resin for fiberglass fuel tank? I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? #2. What weave material is recommended? Thanks, Sterling ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Fiberglass Construction
Date: Dec 23, 2004
As a polymer chemist I highly recommend to anyone considering using polyester resin for construction of a fiberglass fuel tank to make a small test. Make a 2" by 4" test laminate of polyester and fiberglass. Put into a quart jar of AVGAS and MOGAS for about 1 month. You could weigh before and after if you've got an accurate scale, but I think you'll discover the discoloration of the AVGAS and MOGAS plus the somewhat slimy feel of your test coupon will change your mind about the chemical resistance of polyester resins. Gordon Original Message: ----------------- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:02:25 EST Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fiberglass Construction In a message dated 12/23/04 1:00:37 PM Central Standard Time, N321TX(at)wmconnect.com writes: << I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? #2. What weave material is recommended? Thanks, Sterling >> Sterling, Are you using the fuel tank mould that I loaned you ? If so, please use enough release agent, so as not to destroy it !! There is a couple of other folks that will need it. It's a really good mould (capacity - 10.7 gal.), and we can pass it around to others, when you are done with it. (It is for the nose cowling fuel tank for plans dimension short fuselage.) I designed it so the bottom of the tank slopes forward, when the tail is on the ground, so any water in the fuel finds it's way to the outlet. There is no place where a pocket of water will collect. I might need it again, too, if I ever get any alcohol in my fuel !! Here is the way I built both my tanks, and J3 type nose bowl: I used Polyester Resin (for auto body repair) on both tanks. It's cheaper than Epoxy, and is a lower viscosity which aids in wetting out the fabric. However, if I build another tank, I will use the West System Epoxy Resin 105, with the 206 hardener. If you go this route, it is very convenient to buy the pumps that go with the cans, which dispenses the material at the proper ratio. Never handle any cloth with your bare hands, or touch any area where you are going to do an additional lay-up, or skin oil will prevent the resin from saturating the cloth in that area. You have to be FAST if you use the Polyester Resin, because after you put the hardener in...it Kicks in only about 5 to 7 minutes, depending on how many drops you put in. West System has a lot longer pot life (work time). Have all the fabric cut, pre-fit, and stacked in the order they lay. I can't say enough about preparation, before you add the hardener. You can lengthen the working time some, by using a few drops less than recommended, but once it starts to jell, forget about proceeding any further. The challenge of doing composite work, is to get 100% saturation, using as little resin as possible, with no fabric separation. The way we achieve this at work, is 'Vacuum Bagging'. One of the faults of the Polyester Resin, is that it is NOT alcohol resistant. So far, I haven't had any problem. Fiberglass Cloth: I have a source here in Wichita, where I purchase the cloth, in all sizes. It ain't cheap !! Seems like I had over $35 or $40 bucks for the cloth in the nose tank and nose bowl. I used two different weigh fabric - Light weight, and Medium weight. The first layer down, I used light weight. Then two layers of medium weight, then the last layer down in the Mould I used another layer of light weight. The difficult part is to get the cloth to stay down in the corners. It always wants to spring back out of the inside corners, no matter how many times you poke it back in. Light weigh cloth stays down in the corners much easier, because the cloth is thinner, and bends easier. This is the reason I used corner pieces in the mould, so the fabric only has to form to 45, instead of 90. After the resin cures, and you pop the bottom and top out of the mould, you need to carefully sand the edges, so you get a nice tight fit, preferably a 45 miter fit (that's what I did) then glue them together with the resin you've been using. After they are glued together, put 3 layers around the entire corner edge, stepping out from 2" for the first layer down, up to about 4" for the last layer down. You always have to sand the shinny off, before adding any additional layers. After complete, leak test with a balloon, like Tony Bengalis recommends. Then you should calibrate it at the gas station. Set the tank in the static laden position (the angle it will be at when the tail is on the ground), and add one gallon of fuel at a time, dip your 'Calibrated Dip Stick' in, and mark each gallon increment. The distance between these marks vary, because of the shape of the tank. I didn't have any leaks in either of the fuel tanks I built. I built the Smoke Tank with just two layers of fiberglass, moulded around cereal box the right dimension, but used the West System Epoxy. It seemed like the cloth was wetted out good, but it had two places where the baby oil seeped through, and dripped about one drip every 6 minutes. I fixed them by cleaning first with Brake Clean, then sanding the area, then some more Brake Clean (with clean cloth and no finger prints), then used 5 minute epoxy, and two layers of cloth. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG Merry Christmas To All !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Fiberglass Construction
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Gordon, I take it you are strongly recommending epoxy resin for the fiberglass tank, right? I have never been a fan of polyester resin compared to epoxy. Alex Sloan -------------- Original message -------------- > > > As a polymer chemist I highly recommend to anyone considering using > polyester resin for construction of a fiberglass fuel tank to make a small > test. Make a 2" by 4" test laminate of polyester and fiberglass. Put into > a quart jar of AVGAS and MOGAS for about 1 month. You could weigh before > and after if you've got an accurate scale, but I think you'll discover the > discoloration of the AVGAS and MOGAS plus the somewhat slimy feel of your > test coupon will change your mind about the chemical resistance of > polyester resins. > Gordon > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com > Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:02:25 EST > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fiberglass Construction > > > > In a message dated 12/23/04 1:00:37 PM Central Standard Time, > N321TX(at)wmconnect.com writes: > > << I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. > > #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? > #2. What weave material is recommended? > > Thanks, > Sterling >> > > Sterling, > Are you using the fuel tank mould that I loaned you ? If so, please > use > enough release agent, so as not to destroy it !! There is a couple of > other > folks that will need it. It's a really good mould (capacity - 10.7 gal.), > and > we can pass it around to others, when you are done with it. (It is for the > nose cowling fuel tank for plans dimension short fuselage.) I designed it > so > the bottom of the tank slopes forward, when the tail is on the ground, so > any > water in the fuel finds it's way to the outlet. There is no place where a > pocket of water will collect. I might need it again, too, if I ever get > any > alcohol in my fuel !! > > Here is the way I built both my tanks, and J3 type nose > bowl: > I used Polyester Resin (for auto body repair) on both tanks. It's > cheaper than Epoxy, and is a lower viscosity which aids in wetting out the > fabric. > However, if I build another tank, I will use the West System Epoxy Resin > 105, > with the 206 hardener. If you go this route, it is very convenient to buy > the > pumps that go with the cans, which dispenses the material at the proper > ratio. > Never handle any cloth with your bare hands, or touch any area where > you > are going to do an additional lay-up, or skin oil will prevent the resin > from > saturating the cloth in that area. > You have to be FAST if you use the Polyester Resin, because after you > put > the hardener in...it Kicks in only about 5 to 7 minutes, depending on how > many drops you put in. West System has a lot longer pot life (work time). > Have > all the fabric cut, pre-fit, and stacked in the order they lay. I can't > say > enough about preparation, before you add the hardener. You can lengthen > the > working time some, by using a few drops less than recommended, but once it > starts to jell, forget about proceeding any further. The challenge of > doing > composite work, is to get 100% saturation, using as little resin as > possible, with > no fabric separation. The way we achieve this at work, is 'Vacuum > Bagging'. > One of the faults of the Polyester Resin, is that it is NOT alcohol > resistant. So far, I haven't had any problem. > Fiberglass Cloth: > I have a source here in Wichita, where I purchase the cloth, in all > sizes. It ain't cheap !! Seems like I had over $35 or $40 bucks for the > cloth in > the nose tank and nose bowl. I used two different weigh fabric - Light > weight, and Medium weight. > The first layer down, I used light weight. Then two layers of medium > weight, > then the last layer down in the Mould I used another layer of light weight. > > The difficult part is to get the cloth to stay down in the corners. It > always > wants to spring back out of the inside corners, no matter how many times > you > poke it back in. Light weigh cloth stays down in the corners much easier, > because the cloth is thinner, and bends easier. This is the reason I used > corner > pieces in the mould, so the fabric only has to form to 45, instead of 90. > > After the resin cures, and you pop the bottom and top out of the mould, you > need to carefully sand the edges, so you get a nice tight fit, preferably a > 45 > miter fit (that's what I did) then glue them together with the resin you've > been using. After they are glued together, put 3 layers around the entire > corner edge, stepping out from 2" for the first layer down, up to about 4" > for the > last layer down. You always have to sand the shinny off, before adding any > additional layers. After complete, leak test with a balloon, like Tony > Bengalis > recommends. Then you should calibrate it at the gas station. Set the tank > in the static laden position (the angle it will be at when the tail is on > the > ground), and add one gallon of fuel at a time, dip your 'Calibrated Dip > Stick' > in, and mark each gallon increment. The distance between these marks vary, > because of the shape of the tank. I didn't have any leaks in either of the > fuel > tanks I built. > I built the Smoke Tank with just two layers of fiberglass, moulded > around > cereal box the right dimension, but used the West System Epoxy. It seemed > like the cloth was wetted out good, but it had two places where the baby > oil > seeped through, and dripped about one drip every 6 minutes. I fixed them > by > cleaning first with Brake Clean, then sanding the area, then some more > Brake Clean > (with clean cloth and no finger prints), then used 5 minute epoxy, and two > layers of cloth. > > Chuck Gantzer > NX770CG > Merry Christmas To All !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gordon, I take it you are strongly recommending epoxy resin for the fiberglass tank, right? I have never been a fan of polyester resin compared to epoxy. Alex Sloan
-------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" As a polymer chemist I highly recommend to anyone considering using polyester resin for construction of a fiberglass fuel tank to make a small test. Make a 2" by 4" test laminate of polyester and fiberglass. Put into a quart jar of AVGAS and MOGAS for about 1 month. You could weigh before and after if you've got an accurate scale, but I think you'll discover the discoloration of the AVGAS and MOGAS plus the somewhat slimy feel of your test coupon will change your mind about the chemical resistance of polyester resins. Gordon Original Message: ----------------- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 1 To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fiberglass Construction -- Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd(at)aol.com In a message dated 12/23/04 1:00:37 PM Central Standard Time, N321TX(at)wmconnect.com writes: I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? #2. What weave material is recommended? Thanks, Sterling Sterling, Are you using the fuel tank mould that I loaned you ? If so, please use enough release agent, so as not to destroy it !! There is a couple of other folks that will need it. It's a really good mould (capacity - 10.7 gal.), and we can pass it around to others, when you are done with it. (It is for the nose cowling fuel tank for plans dimension short fuselage.) I designed it so the bottom of the tank slopes forward, when the tail is on the ground, so any water in the fuel finds it's way to the outlet. There is no place where a pocket of water will collect. I might need it again, too, if I ever get any alcohol in my fuel !! Here is the way I built both my tanks, and J3 type nose bowl: I used Polyester Resin (for auto body repair) on both tanks. It's cheaper than Epoxy, and is a lower viscosity which aids in wetting out the fabric. However, if I build another tank, I will use the West System Epoxy Resin 105, with the 206 hardener. If you go this route, it is very convenient to buy the pumps that go with the cans, which dispenses the material at the proper ratio. Never handle any cloth with your bar e hands, or touch any area where you are going to do an additional lay-up, or skin oil will prevent the resin from saturating the cloth in that area. You have to be FAST if you use the Polyester Resin, because after you put the hardener in...it Kicks in only about 5 to 7 minutes, depending on how many drops you put in. West System has a lot longer pot life (work time). Have all the fabric cut, pre-fit, and stacked in the order they lay. I can't say enough about preparation, before you add the hardener. You can lengthen the working time some, by using a few drops less than recommended, but once it starts to jell, forget about proceeding any further. The challenge of doing composite work, is to get 100% saturation, using as little resin as possible, with no fabric separation. The way we achieve this at work, is 'Vacuum Bagging'. One of the faults of the Polyester Resin, is that it is NOT alcohol resistant. So far, I haven't had any problem. Fiberglass Cloth: I have a source here in Wichita, where I purchase the cloth, in all sizes. It ain't cheap !! Seems like I had over $35 or $40 bucks for the cloth in the nose tank and nose bowl. I used two different weigh fabric - Light weight, and Medium weight. The first layer down, I used light weight. Then two layers of medium weight, then the last layer down in the Mould I used another layer of light weight. The difficult part is to get the cloth to stay down in the corners. It always wants to spring back out of the inside corners, no matter how many times you poke it back in. Light weigh cloth stays down in the corners much easier, because the cloth is thinner, and be nds easier. This is the reason I used corner pieces in the mould, so the fabric only has to form to 45, instead of 90. After the resin cures, and you pop the bottom and top out of the mould, you need to carefully sand the edges, so you get a nice tight fit, preferably a 45 miter fit (that's what I did) then glue them together with the resin you've been using. After they are glued together, put 3 layers around the entire corner edge, stepping out from 2" for the first layer down, up to about 4" for the last layer down. You always have to sand the shinny off, before adding any additional layers. After complete, leak test with a balloon, like Tony Bengalis recommends. Then you should calibrate it at the gas station. Set the tank in the static laden position (the angle it will be at when the tail is on the ground), and add on e gallon of fuel at a time, dip your 'Calibrated Dip Stick' in, and mark each gallon increment. The distance between these marks vary, because of the shape of the tank. I didn't have any leaks in either of the fuel tanks I built. I built the Smoke Tank with just two layers of fiberglass, moulded around cereal box the right dimension, but used the West System Epoxy. It seemed like the cloth was wetted out good, but it had two places where the baby oil seeped through, and dripped about one drip every 6 minutes. I fixed them by cleaning first with Brake Clean, then sanding the area, then some more Brake Clean (with clean cloth and no finger prints), then used 5 minute epoxy, and two layers of cloth. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG Merry Christmas To All !! < ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Fiberglass Construction
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Each resin has it's place and function. In terms of chemical resistence it goes like this: epoxy based vinyl ester is best, a post cured epoxy is next and then comes polyester for some things like water. If MOGAS and AVGAS was pure aliphatics C-7 and C-8's hydrocarbons then maybe polyester would hold up better, but gasoline of all types has a lot of aromatics and some ethers in it now that lead is dead in fuel. MOGAS changes from region to region and season to season to fit the climate, these additives love to scarf up polymers like polyester. When no-lead came out 25 years ago, we had to redo all the test on RAE and Saf-t-poxy for Rutan to insure the composite planes of his design didn't dissolve into a great big puddle of plastic. These tests were 2 years of submersion in all types of gasoline, weighed before and after on a scale accurate to 0.001 grams. Epoxy holds up. If someone out there has a polyester tank, and leaks do appear or your fuel filters/carb gets a gummy deposit, step back and punt. Or take the thing out, dry it out, cut it in half, relaminate the inside with Derakane and a couple plies of glass. One of the steps I left out in my last email for those using the "lost mold" method of making their composite tanks: if you don't use epoxy and decide to use Derakane, you have to coat the foam mold with a layer of plaster to keep the styrene in the Derakane from eating the mold while you're making your laminates. Go to Home Depot and buy a gallon of normal plaster patching compound, spread it thin and smoothly on the carved stryo and let dry, then go ahead with your laminations. Gordon Bowen Original Message: ----------------- From: alexms1(at)comcast.net Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:23:10 +0000 Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fiberglass Construction Gordon, I take it you are strongly recommending epoxy resin for the fiberglass tank, right? I have never been a fan of polyester resin compared to epoxy. Alex Sloan -------------- Original message -------------- > > > As a polymer chemist I highly recommend to anyone considering using > polyester resin for construction of a fiberglass fuel tank to make a small > test. Make a 2" by 4" test laminate of polyester and fiberglass. Put into > a quart jar of AVGAS and MOGAS for about 1 month. You could weigh before > and after if you've got an accurate scale, but I think you'll discover the > discoloration of the AVGAS and MOGAS plus the somewhat slimy feel of your > test coupon will change your mind about the chemical resistance of > polyester resins. > Gordon > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com > Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:02:25 EST > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fiberglass Construction > > > > In a message dated 12/23/04 1:00:37 PM Central Standard Time, > N321TX(at)wmconnect.com writes: > > << I'm going to be making a fuel tank for an air camper soon. > > #1. Who is a good source (Aircraft Spruce?) for the resin and cloth? > #2. What weave material is recommended? > > Thanks, > Sterling >> > > Sterling, > Are you using the fuel tank mould that I loaned you ? If so, please > use > enough release agent, so as not to destroy it !! There is a couple of > other > folks that will need it. It's a really good mould (capacity - 10.7 gal.), > and > we can pass it around to others, when you are done with it. (It is for the > nose cowling fuel tank for plans dimension short fuselage.) I designed it > so > the bottom of the tank slopes forward, when the tail is on the ground, so > any > water in the fuel finds it's way to the outlet. There is no place where a > pocket of water will collect. I might need it again, too, if I ever get > any > alcohol in my fuel !! > > Here is the way I built both my tanks, and J3 type nose > bowl: > I used Polyester Resin (for auto body repair) on both tanks. It's > cheaper than Epoxy, and is a lower viscosity which aids in wetting out the > fabric. > However, if I build another tank, I will use the West System Epoxy Resin > 105, > with the 206 hardener. If you go this route, it is very convenient to buy > the > pumps that go with the cans, which dispenses the material at the proper > ratio. > Never handle any cloth with your bare hands, or touch any area where > you > are going to do an additional lay-up, or skin oil will prevent the resin > from > saturating the cloth in that area. > You have to be FAST if you use the Polyester Resin, because after you > put > the hardener in...it Kicks in only about 5 to 7 minutes, depending on how > many drops you put in. West System has a lot longer pot life (work time). > Have > all the fabric cut, pre-fit, and stacked in the order they lay. I can't > say > enough about preparation, before you add the hardener. You can lengthen > the > working time some, by using a few drops less than recommended, but once it > starts to jell, forget about proceeding any further. The challenge of > doing > composite work, is to get 100% saturation, using as little resin as > possible, with > no fabric separation. The way we achieve this at work, is 'Vacuum > Bagging'. > One of the faults of the Polyester Resin, is that it is NOT alcohol > resistant. So far, I haven't had any problem. > Fiberglass Cloth: > I have a source here in Wichita, where I purchase the cloth, in all > sizes. It ain't cheap !! Seems like I had over $35 or $40 bucks for the > cloth in > the nose tank and nose bowl. I used two different weigh fabric - Light > weight, and Medium weight. > The first layer down, I used light weight. Then two layers of medium > weight, > then the last layer down in the Mould I used another layer of light weight. > > The difficult part is to get the cloth to stay down in the corners. It > always > wants to spring back out of the inside corners, no matter how many times > you > poke it back in. Light weigh cloth stays down in the corners much easier, > because the cloth is thinner, and bends easier. This is the reason I used > corner > pieces in the mould, so the fabric only has to form to 45, instead of 90. > > After the resin cures, and you pop the bottom and top out of the mould, you > need to carefully sand the edges, so you get a nice tight fit, preferably a > 45 > miter fit (that's what I did) then glue them together with the resin you've > been using. After they are glued together, put 3 layers around the entire > corner edge, stepping out from 2" for the first layer down, up to about 4" > for the > last layer down. You always have to sand the shinny off, before adding any > additional layers. After complete, leak test with a balloon, like Tony > Bengalis > recommends. Then you should calibrate it at the gas station. Set the tank > in the static laden position (the angle it will be at when the tail is on > the > ground), and add one gallon of fuel at a time, dip your 'Calibrated Dip > Stick' > in, and mark each gallon increment. The distance between these marks vary, > because of the shape of the tank. I didn't have any leaks in either of the > fuel > tanks I built. > I built the Smoke Tank with just two layers of fiberglass, moulded > around > cereal box the right dimension, but used the West System Epoxy. It seemed > like the cloth was wetted out good, but it had two places where the baby > oil > seeped through, and dripped about one drip every 6 minutes. I fixed them > by > cleaning first with Brake Clean, then sanding the area, then some more > Brake Clean > (with clean cloth and no finger prints), then used 5 minute epoxy, and two > layers of cloth. > > Chuck Gantzer > NX770CG > Merry Christmas To All !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Subject: Re: Fiberglass Construction
Gordon, I wish I would have seen this post about all this epoxy stuff. I built my wing tank in December of '98, and used a sloshing solution called '5000L'. At the time, this is the method that several local builders used. Maybe the sloshing solution saved the polyester resin. I've done quite a few inspections inside the tank, and it still seems all right. I didn't use the sloshing solution in the cowl tank, that I built in January '03. I've never found any goo, or fibers, in the gascolator, and I inspect it regularly. I'll have a very close look inside both tanks, with my bore scope, as regular inspections. I'm very careful not to use fuel with alcohol, and the fuel I use at my home airport is 100LL. Ya never know, though. The next two tanks I build, will be for my Wittman Tailwind W10. I'll use West System Epoxy resin, and I plan on using Carbon Fiber for the 35 gallon tank behind the firewall, and an auxiliary tank in the baggage compartment. The West System dosen't mention weather it is epoxy based vinyl ester. Gordon, is the West System epoxy based vinyl ester ? Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 23, 2004
Subject: Re: Fiberglass Construction
Yep, I'm going to be using your mold. I just forgot what you used when I picked it up from you several months ago, and it'll stay here until I get word who gets it next. Thanks, S.B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2004
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fiberglass Construction
We have used here Poyester Resin in our tanks for 20 plus years, with no problem, only they get yellow, the brown, later dark brown, cant see the level of gasoline though, but no internal damage.... Ol' Ironsides a Tailwind look alike built inthe 60's (If I remember correct) used the same and stlll in working condition (read the article a few years ago, maybe my memory is not all correct. Is a Fiberglass plane but not complete sure if the gas tank is fiberglass... Saludos Gary Gower. Whats the name of that German guy that is stolling my memory? :-) :-) Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: Gordon, I wish I would have seen this post about all this epoxy stuff. I built my wing tank in December of '98, and used a sloshing solution called '5000L'. At the time, this is the method that several local builders used. Maybe the sloshing solution saved the polyester resin. I've done quite a few inspections inside the tank, and it still seems all right. I didn't use the sloshing solution in the cowl tank, that I built in January '03. I've never found any goo, or fibers, in the gascolator, and I inspect it regularly. I'll have a very close look inside both tanks, with my bore scope, as regular inspections. I'm very careful not to use fuel with alcohol, and the fuel I use at my home airport is 100LL. Ya never know, though. The next two tanks I build, will be for my Wittman Tailwind W10. I'll use West System Epoxy resin, and I plan on using Carbon Fiber for the 35 gallon tank behind the firewall, and an auxiliary tank in the baggage compartment. The West System dosen't mention weather it is epoxy based vinyl ester. Gordon, is the West System epoxy based vinyl ester ? Chuck G. --------------------------------- Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2004
From: Javier Cruz <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Merry Christmas
<"000e01c4e92b$75e2f450$0600 a8c0"@laptop> My best whishes for all on the list on this Christmas... Javier Cruz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: Fiberglass Construction
Date: Dec 24, 2004
Chuck, Glad you've had good luck with sloshing rubber in the tank, it seems to work in some cases, but didn't for the Osprey tanks I had to rebuild, the gas got under the area around the drain sump and ate it's way thru the polyester eventually. The Osprey has been around since early 70's and someone decided to start selling wing tanks as an after thought, the original designer didn't specify what type of resin to use for in-fuselage tanks. Lots of rebuilds were done and lots of slosh sold. Derakane is the brand name from Dow for their epoxy based vinyl ester resin system. It's in the Spruce catalog. It's main commerical usage is for chemical storage tanks including all the gasoline in-ground fiberglass tanks at gas stations. The commerical folks like it because it's sprayable with a chopper gun just like polyesters. For most builders it's a little too tricky to work with, so they stick with any good epoxy resin system like West or System 3. Gordon Original Message: ----------------- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:13:47 EST Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fiberglass Construction Gordon, I wish I would have seen this post about all this epoxy stuff. I built my wing tank in December of '98, and used a sloshing solution called '5000L'. At the time, this is the method that several local builders used. Maybe the sloshing solution saved the polyester resin. I've done quite a few inspections inside the tank, and it still seems all right. I didn't use the sloshing solution in the cowl tank, that I built in January '03. I've never found any goo, or fibers, in the gascolator, and I inspect it regularly. I'll have a very close look inside both tanks, with my bore scope, as regular inspections. I'm very careful not to use fuel with alcohol, and the fuel I use at my home airport is 100LL. Ya never know, though. The next two tanks I build, will be for my Wittman Tailwind W10. I'll use West System Epoxy resin, and I plan on using Carbon Fiber for the 35 gallon tank behind the firewall, and an auxiliary tank in the baggage compartment. The West System dosen't mention weather it is epoxy based vinyl ester. Gordon, is the West System epoxy based vinyl ester ? Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 24, 2004
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
Amen! Jesus is the reason. May God bless you all. Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair Piet in "To Fly"
Date: Dec 24, 2004
Just got my copy of the SAA publication "To Fly" and one of the articles features a Corvair-powered Pietenpol built by P.F. Beck of South Carolina. Very nice Piet, he says it cruises 70-75 MPH (which is about 5-10 MPH faster cruise than the A-65 powered examples like mine). He has a real nice setup on the sides of his cowling that allows each entire side to swing away for access. The Corvair is a "William Wynne manual" conversion with rear starter and what looks like a rear alternator. He also has stock exhaust logs joining to a single outlet with a muffler under the airplane. Mr. Beck states that his Corvair Pietenpol cost him $6,800 complete. Can you beat that for fun, dependable, two-place flying? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 24, 2004
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet in "To Fly"
Hey, I met P.F. at Brodhead this summer and he was kind enough to allow me to interview him for my alleged video I hope to produce someday about this Air Camper experience. P.F. is a true southern gentleman and when he showed me his pictures of his Corvair powered Piet, I nearly fell over. Nice looking airplane and I hope to see it at Brodhead someday. S.B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Christmas
Merry Christmas to all of you in Piet Land. Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 2004
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: [Please Read] Trim That Message!!
Dear Pietenpol Listers, I've been getting a number of complaints from various members regarding a bit of List Etiquette. Primarily, the issues have revolved around the trimming of previous posters text when replying to a message. In one example I saw recently, the person replying sent a one-line response to a message and included over *three pages* of quoted text in the message!! This just fills up the archive and people's email boxes with lots of useless data. This issue is specifically addressed in the Pietenpol-List FAQ and Usage Guidelines found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/ftp/Archives/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Specifically, the following paragraph speaks directly to this issue: "When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated!" Please be courteous and kind to your fellow Listers and to the Archive file and take a moment to trim out the unneeded quoted parts of a reply. I thank you; the Archives thank you; all of the other Listers thank you. Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Admin Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 26, 2004
Subject: Tailwheel
I want to build my own tailwheel -- don't want to use a tailskid. Would like to avoid buying a commercial tailwheel assembly. What makes the best tailwheel? Should I use Bernie's design for the strut and attachment but simply attach a wheel at the end of the spring steel? What kind of wheel? I think I read that one fellow used a hockey puck....Am open to suggestions... By the way -- had to prove it for myself -- bought a nice piece of 5-ply birch plywood from Home Depot. Stuck a little piece in boiling water -- after two hours I peeled it apart like a banana! Not that any Piet would be exposed to boiling water for 2 hours, but I won't be using that stuff in my plane... Hope you all had a nice Christmas! And will have a happy New Year! "Here's to the duck that swam in the lake and never lost a feather -- may this time in another year we'll still all be together..." Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Date: Dec 26, 2004
I usedc the leaf spring with a Matco wheel assy. I don't like it and will be changing it over the winter. I am going to the design in the plans with a much lighter wheel. Keep us posted on what you find for a wheel, I will be looking also. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel I want to build my own tailwheel -- don't want to use a tailskid. Would like to avoid buying a commercial tailwheel assembly. What makes the best tailwheel? Should I use Bernie's design for the strut and attachment but simply attach a wheel at the end of the spring steel? What kind of wheel? I think I read that one fellow used a hockey puck....Am open to suggestions... By the way -- had to prove it for myself -- bought a nice piece of 5-ply birch plywood from Home Depot. Stuck a little piece in boiling water -- after two hours I peeled it apart like a banana! Not that any Piet would be exposed to boiling water for 2 hours, but I won't be using that stuff in my plane... Hope you all had a nice Christmas! And will have a happy New Year! "Here's to the duck that swam in the lake and never lost a feather -- may this time in another year we'll still all be together..." Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.net" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Subject: back to the piet finally
Well, first off - Merry Christmas and happy New Year to everyone. It's been a long while since I've participated in the group or even worked on the piet, but because I received a generous gift from a relative, some money will be spent on wing rib material. Wondering what's the best place to purchase rib material. I'll probably order online thru wicks of AS&S unless there are other recommendations. Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - need info
Date: Dec 26, 2004
Merry Christmas (and I'm not afraid to say it that way) everybody. I need some information. As you all may have noticed, I've been concerned that some Federal Aviation Regs regarding the application for Repairman Certificate may be either fraudulently or at least inconsistently be being applied. I have first-hand knowledge that the Atlanta FSDO, in some cases, is not requiring the builder to come in to the FSDO and be interviewed as part of the Repairman Certificate application. I live about 15 miles south of the Georgia border in Florida and I am being told I have to drive 600 plus miles (at least 8 hours round trip) to be "interviewed" by the FAA Airworthiness Inspectors in Tampa to receive my repairman certificate. Now, I don't mind the "interview" - hell I built this sucker from DIRT and know it a helluva lot better than some FAA desk-dude. But I feel that there is such an unreasonable inconvenience here that I'm not willing to take off work, spend the travel time and money, and jump through their hoops to do it. Especially since THEIR DAR has signed off on the plane and confirmed that the airplane is airworthy, I built it, and I am who I say I am. So basically I payed $400 for a DAR to show up 2 hrs late, chat for 2 hours and, give me a partial process. If it's so d*** important they need to get off their a**es into the field and do some "airworthiness inspecting". That's what MY federal tax dollars pay for - yours , too. I plan on writing the head of the FAA and asking for some answers - such as why I am being mandated to do something somebody else - 15 miles north of me- is not- to meet the same FAR requirement. I don't know if this is discriminatory or why - it's at very least inconsistent and bureaucratic. If you have received your Repairman Certificate on a project you built in the last 5 years, please e-mail me off-line to tell if you had to "visit" your FAA office for an "interview" - where it was- and how far your travel was. Also please estimate out of pocket costs and time away from work if possible. Thanks, Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** > > In a message dated 12/21/04 8:14:46 PM Central Standard Time, > ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes: > > << You may be suffering the tail end of the the Southeast Region trying to > get some credibility back by unreasonably tighening up on dotting all the i's > and crossing the t's. >> > > That explains a lot. > > Chuck > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Hi Tom, In 1997, I purchased capstrip material from AS&S. No problems. They cut the material to 62" lengths as requested. 23 cents per foot. Charlie Rubeck's ribs get good reviews and can save you a month or two of work for about $300.00. I don't have contact information for him. Someone else on the list will have that. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: back to the piet finally > "tmbrant1(at)netzero.net" > > > > Well, first off - Merry Christmas and happy > New Year to everyone. > > It's been a long while since I've > participated in the group or even worked on > the piet, but because I received a generous > gift from a relative, some money will be > spent on wing rib material. Wondering > what's the best place to purchase rib > material. I'll probably order online thru > wicks of AS&S unless there are other > recommendations. > > Tom B. > > > Forum - > through the Contributions > banner ads or any other > Matronics Forums. > pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/search > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tugwilsons(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Subject: Re: tailwheel
Hi all, I used a supermarket trolley wheel, cut a leaf spring from a small car in in half , drilled a hole in the end and bolted the wheel to it. Fitted the spring to the a/c with u shaped brackets bolted thru the sternpost and thru the ash block in the bottom of the fuz. It works really well, cost nothing and I have three spare wheels from the same trolley should I ever need them. regards Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Pieters, Just a non-purist idea about selection of wood. Have used doug fir, pine and sitka spruce for various parts of the two Piets I've built. Reading of your inquiries pertaining to woods for ribs I really think if I were ever to do it again I would buy some 12 ft 2x4 #1 clear pine and rip it to dimensions. It wouldn't be but a skosh heavier than spruce and a bit lighter than fir BUT stronger than either. Just an idea and a big money saver. Corky in cold Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Subject: Rib material
In a message dated 12/27/04 2:00:27 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << some money will be spent on wing rib material. >> I built my ribs out of standard douglas fir, obtained from the local lumer yard( a pretty good one). The ribs, as specified, are very strong - the Beech staggerwing down the line uses ribs that are half the size of the Piet. So my pile of 14 ribs weighed almost exactly 5 pounds. Weight is not an issue here, either. Would it make a lot of difference if the pile weighed only 4 pounds{spruce?}, or as much as 6{birch?)? I don't know what woods are available in your area - I'd choose something that is good and available though. I made my decision to use Fir after looking at the spruce at AS&S. I did not install the gussets as I built the ribs - did that later, and there was no advantage to this. I do have an extra rib, and this has been really useful. I used basswood plywood from AS&S, which is light and glues really well, and would use this again. I think that it develops the full stregth of the fir/plywood interface. Birch or mahogany ply is stronger than my fir, but the gussets would have to be larger to be stronger, as the fir or spruce is the limiting factor. I soaked the rib stock in hot water for five minutes, then bent them in a jig with a slightly sharper curve, and let them dry for a day or two. Worked swell, none cracked or broke (but I had tested the material dry by bending it, and some pieces did break..). If you don't have a planer, now is the time to get one. You will really appreciate what it can do for you. Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Rib material
Date: Dec 27, 2004
For any Pieters that are in N. Florida area and still looking for wood. I brought down to FL this year approx. 300 Board Ft of Kachemak Bay AK Sika Spruce directly from the sawmill. It's mostly 3/4" by 4" to 6" wide by 8' long. A few pieces 1.5" by 6" wide by 8' long. Knot free, dried 1 year min. It's in standing in the hanger Palatka FL(28J). $3.50/bf (12"x12"x1"), this is about 1/5 of what ASpruce charges. Above sizes are full cut actual sawmill medium finish, you'd need a planer and ripsaw for your work. If you're interested you can contact me directly, I intend to bring down from AK a few hundred BF each Nov. Gordon Bowen Original Message: ----------------- From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:15:58 EST Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib material In a message dated 12/27/04 2:00:27 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << some money will be spent on wing rib material. >> I built my ribs out of standard douglas fir, obtained from the local lumer yard( a pretty good one). The ribs, as specified, are very strong - the Beech staggerwing down the line uses ribs that are half the size of the Piet. So my pile of 14 ribs weighed almost exactly 5 pounds. Weight is not an issue here, either. Would it make a lot of difference if the pile weighed only 4 pounds{spruce?}, or as much as 6{birch?)? I don't know what woods are available in your area - I'd choose something that is good and available though. I made my decision to use Fir after looking at the spruce at AS&S. I did not install the gussets as I built the ribs - did that later, and there was no advantage to this. I do have an extra rib, and this has been really useful. I used basswood plywood from AS&S, which is light and glues really well, and would use this again. I think that it develops the full stregth of the fir/plywood interface. Birch or mahogany ply is stronger than my fir, but the gussets would have to be larger to be stronger, as the fir or spruce is the limiting factor. I soaked the rib stock in hot water for five minutes, then bent them in a jig with a slightly sharper curve, and let them dry for a day or two. Worked swell, none cracked or broke (but I had tested the material dry by bending it, and some pieces did break..). If you don't have a planer, now is the time to get one. You will really appreciate what it can do for you. Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Just a question on your comment that pine would be stronger than fir. Here in Oregon our main fir is Douglas Fir, and our main pine is Ponderosa--and Douglas Fir is definitely stronger than Ponderosa Pine. Which species of pine and fir are available in your area? I used Western Hemlock for my ribs and it was good stuff to work with. Mac in Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to the piet finally Pieters, Just a non-purist idea about selection of wood. Have used doug fir, pine and sitka spruce for various parts of the two Piets I've built. Reading of your inquiries pertaining to woods for ribs I really think if I were ever to do it again I would buy some 12 ft 2x4 #1 clear pine and rip it to dimensions. It wouldn't be but a skosh heavier than spruce and a bit lighter than fir BUT stronger than either. Just an idea and a big money saver. Corky in cold Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Sorry Mac, In Louisiana we refer to pine as Southern Pine. It has strong grains as spruce and make very nice, strong Piet ribs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I have heard of Southern Pine, but I think it was in reference to flooring--so it must be tough. Mac in Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to the piet finally Sorry Mac, In Louisiana we refer to pine as Southern Pine. It has strong grains as spruce and make very nice, strong Piet ribs. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
I bought some nice 2X6 spruce boards of different lengths up to 16'. After cutting out the material and pruning out the knots, I had lots of material to build with. I picked out quarter sawn pieces to get good grain orientation. The ribs are very light and very strong. I paid like 6-7 dollars per board. I like spruce, it is very easy to work with. Doc > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2004
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Torque tube question
Concerning the two collars in the from of the torque tube, one is welded to the torque tube and the front one is shown riveted. Question is can the front collar be welded also? Any ideas why a rivet is specified here? Thanks -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Johnson" <ddjohn(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Richard Take a look at clothes dryer wheel they are lignt and rugged. I didn't see you on the ice iceboating today. Dale Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel I usedc the leaf spring with a Matco wheel assy. I don't like it and will be changing it over the winter. I am going to the design in the plans with a much lighter wheel. Keep us posted on what you find for a wheel, I will be looking also. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel I want to build my own tailwheel -- don't want to use a tailskid. Would like to avoid buying a commercial tailwheel assembly. What makes the best tailwheel? Should I use Bernie's design for the strut and attachment but simply attach a wheel at the end of the spring steel? What kind of wheel? I think I read that one fellow used a hockey puck....Am open to suggestions... By the way -- had to prove it for myself -- bought a nice piece of 5-ply birch plywood from Home Depot. Stuck a little piece in boiling water -- after two hours I peeled it apart like a banana! Not that any Piet would be exposed to boiling water for 2 hours, but I won't be using that stuff in my plane... Hope you all had a nice Christmas! And will have a happy New Year! "Here's to the duck that swam in the lake and never lost a feather -- may this time in another year we'll still all be together..." Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Stinemetze" <stinemetze(at)mpks.net>
Subject: Don't Scare Me Like That
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Fellow builders. I assume that the majority of you =93Piet-Nuts=94 out there have purchased at least some of your materials from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. (ASS) =96 abbreviation used with no derogatory intent My two sons got together and purchased a Christmas present for me that I still can=92t believe. It was the complete spruce kit from ASS and, believe me, I was bowled over. I received the two big packages about three days before Christmas and really didn=92t have time to look through the wood until last night. I got in there looking for the =BC=94 x =BD=94 cap strip stock so I could start making ribs. I did find some cap strip material in the package, about enough to build two ribs. So, I got on the phone to find out if there was a problem. The nice young lady at ASS informed me that cap strip material was not part of the package. Why not? Because the material that is shipped varies depending on the engine you intend to use. Oh and by the way it sells for $8/ft =96 can I transfer you to sales? Now I can understand that the fuselage stringers might vary in length depending on the engine used but the plans don=92t say anything about that being the case with cap strips. In fact, the only wing options I have come across are: 1-piece or 3-piece. Also, $8/ft seemed a LITTLE high. Later, after I calmed down a bit, I checked out the ASS web site and discovered that cap strips of this size sell for $ 0.32/ft. (a difference of approximately $6,500 vs $150 in materials cost). Now I hate to say bad things about folks I do not know but this seems a little over the top. So, I have two questions for you listers out there: 1) Did your ASS spruce kit include the cap strip material? 2) Have you experienced this level of misinformation when dealing with ASS? If the error is mine, please point it out to me. (I wonder what is really missing from my kit that will cost me $8/ft.) =91Ol Tom McPherson, Kansas ____ | ____ \8/ / \ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Goff" <kgoff(at)arkansasusa.com>
Subject: back to the piet finally
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Are you talking about using pine for the ribs only or for the entire A/C? Thanks, Ken -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to the piet finally Sorry Mac, In Louisiana we refer to pine as Southern Pine. It has strong grains as spruce and make very nice, strong Piet ribs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
My reference was to the inquires of cap strip material. HOWEVER, a Piet made completely with #1 clear southern pine would not be overweight and would fly like that Louisiana Pelican.Low and slow ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Date: Dec 27, 2004
Dick, What didn't you like about the Matco wheel assy.? Ted > From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > > I usedc the leaf spring with a Matco wheel assy. I don't like it and will be changing > it over the winter. I am going to the design in the plans with a much > lighter wheel. Keep us posted on what you find for a wheel, I will be looking > also. > Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
Date: Dec 27, 2004
the matco is a fairly heavy unit. one could most likely fabricate something that weighs half as much. I, on the otherhand, need the tailweight to counter my Corvair installation so the Matco fits the bill nicely DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979(at)naples.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > > > Dick, > > What didn't you like about the Matco wheel assy.? > > Ted >> From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel >> >> I usedc the leaf spring with a Matco wheel assy. I don't like it and >> will > be changing >> it over the winter. I am going to the design in the plans with a much >> lighter wheel. Keep us posted on what you find for a wheel, I will be > looking >> also. >> Dick N. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Depending on where you are in Oregon you should be checking out Port Orford cedar. Find a wooden boat builder in your area. Not only is it stronger in all respects than Sitka but lighter too. Western hemlock is excellent and the same strength as spruce. Averages slightly lighter but some pieces can be heavier. My entire plane so far, except the doug fir landing gear, is hemlock. Red pine is significantly both stronger and heavier but eastern white pine is significantly weaker and lighter. Clif, varnishing landing gear. Just a question on your comment that pine would be stronger than fir. Here in Oregon our main fir is Douglas Fir, and our main pine is Ponderosa--and Douglas Fir is definitely stronger than Ponderosa Pine. Which species of pine and fir are available in your area? I used Western Hemlock for my ribs and it was good stuff to work with. Mac in Oregon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2004
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Don't Scare Me Like That
Tom The AS wood kit doesn't include capstrip. I attached the parts list for the wood kit AS sent me. Many people just use cedar or douglas fir for capstrip anyhow and save some money. Rick H > > > > Fellow builders. I assume that the majority of you "Piet-Nuts" out there > have purchased at least some of your materials from Aircraft Spruce and > Specialty Co. (ASS) =E2=80=93 abbreviation used with no derogatory intent > > > > My two sons got together and purchased a Christmas present for me that I > still can't believe. It was the complete spruce kit from ASS and, believe > me, I was bowled over. I received the two big packages about three days > before Christmas and really didn't have time to look through the wood until > last night. I got in there looking for the =C2=BC" x =C2=BD" cap strip stock so I > could start making ribs. I did find some cap strip material in the package, > about enough to build two ribs. So, I got on the phone to find out if there > was a problem. > > > > The nice young lady at ASS informed me that cap strip material was not part > of the package. Why not? Because the material that is shipped varies > depending on the engine you intend to use. Oh and by the way it sells for > $8/ft =E2=80=93 can I transfer you to sales? Now I can understand that the fuselage > stringers might vary in length depending on the engine used but the plans > don't say anything about that being the case with cap strips. In fact, the > only wing options I have come across are: 1-piece or 3-piece. Also, $8/ft > seemed a LITTLE high. > > > > Later, after I calmed down a bit, I checked out the ASS web site and > discovered that cap strips of this size sell for $ 0.32/ft. (a difference > of approximately $6,500 vs $150 in materials cost). Now I hate to say bad > things about folks I do not know but this seems a little over the top. > > > > So, I have two questions for you listers out there: > > 1) Did your ASS spruce kit include the cap strip material? > > 2) Have you experienced this level of misinformation when dealing with > ASS? > > > > If the error is mine, please point it out to me. (I wonder what is really > missing from my kit that will cost me $8/ft.) > > > > 'Ol Tom > > McPherson, Kansas > > ____ | ____ > \8/ > / \ > > -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2004
pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Don't Scare Me Like That
From: "Christopher Friel" <cjfriel(at)ucdavis.edu>
> So, I have two questions for you listers out there: > 1) Did your ASS spruce kit include the cap strip material? > 2) Have you experienced this level of misinformation when dealing > with ASS? ASS specifies that <65hp uses 1/4 x 1/4 cap strips and >65hp uses 1/4 x 1/2. I bought my wood from ASS. The only bad experiences that I have had building my piet was dealing with customer services. Needless to say, I did not get cap strips. Also, you will need to pick up wood for the leading and trailing edges. The wood that i did recieve was top notch but I don't feel that ASS deserves too much credit; after all, I payed a bundle for it; I expected nothing less. While it would be contrary to the holiday spirit to bellyache much more about it, you could still check the archives and you will find plenty of gripes about ASS. The bright side is that this list is full of resources including alternate sources of supply. I got my cap strips from Wicks and my plywood from Noah's marine and Boulter plywood. A very pleasant and more affordable experience. Good luck on your project. Chris Friel Davis, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2004
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Max crossind in a GN-1...
report What type of crosswind will generally keep you guys on the ground, assuming you will be landing on concrete? I'm going to be flying a GN-1 before long, and would like to get an idea what some other people are doing. Also, how much more crosswind will you tolerate when landing on grass? The plane I'll be flying has a tailwheel, not a skid. What kind of difference will a skid make on concrete? Thanks for the help! Steve Ruse Dallas, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com>
<005f01c4ecab$90d5a5e0$4e705118@dawsonaviation>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Hello again. I do have some Port Orford Cedar 2X6's that I traded a load of logs for 20 years ago. I've been hoarding it because I also have spruce trees so just cut my own spruce for larger pieces (fuselage etc.). I should use the cedar but it is almost too pretty to cut. Mac in Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to the piet finally Depending on where you are in Oregon you should be checking out Port Orford cedar. Find a wooden boat builder in your area. Not only is it stronger in all respects than Sitka but lighter too. Western hemlock is excellent and the same strength as spruce. Averages slightly lighter but some pieces can be heavier. My entire plane so far, except the doug fir landing gear, is hemlock. Red pine is significantly both stronger and heavier but eastern white pine is significantly weaker and lighter. Clif, varnishing landing gear. Just a question on your comment that pine would be stronger than fir. Here in Oregon our main fir is Douglas Fir, and our main pine is Ponderosa--and Douglas Fir is definitely stronger than Ponderosa Pine. Which species of pine and fir are available in your area? I used Western Hemlock for my ribs and it was good stuff to work with. Mac in Oregon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Hi Mac, Are you a logger? That is what my son and I are doing right now. Wish I had some nice spruce to cut. Our logs are all oaks and hickory, of which neither is very good for building an airplane with, it might be strong, but it would fly like a lead sled. :) Doc > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Max crossind in a GN-1...
Steve, a tail skid on concrete is a ground-loop just waiting to happen. Grass is always more forgiving (especially in tailwheels) than hard surfaced runways. I have found it much easier to land a tailwheel in a cross-wind by doing a wheel landing rather than a full stall landing. By doing so, you can better keep the ailerons turned into the wind and land on the up-wind wheel first. Believe me, if you have a choice of whether to land on a hard surface vs. grass in a cross-wind, always select the grass. This works for all tail-wheel airplanes I've flown (and that is well over thiry or so). The tail skid works very well on grass as it works like a tiller and holds the plane straight on landing. But on a hard surface runway, the skid will not bite into the surface and will become a real liability when the plane begins to yaw and you don't have enough rudder to hold her. If you haven't done so, my suggestion would to get some tailwheel dual first. It will pay off in the long run. Fixing broken airplanes can get pretty expensive. One other point--you're not a real "tail-dragger" pilot until you have flown a tail skid. Happy Landings...Always. Doc --- Steve Ruse wrote: > > > What type of crosswind will generally keep you guys > on the ground, assuming you > will be landing on concrete? I'm going to be flying > a GN-1 before long, and > would like to get an idea what some other people are > doing. Also, how much > more crosswind will you tolerate when landing on > grass? > > The plane I'll be flying has a tailwheel, not a > skid. What kind of difference > will a skid make on concrete? > > Thanks for the help! > > Steve Ruse > Dallas, TX > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.net" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Subject: piet ribs - material specs
Thanks guys for your comments on the piet ribs... I can't find my guidelines on wood for the rib material - does it need to follow the same guidelines as the spar? IE: grains per inch, slope, knot size, etc... Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "malcolm Zirges" <macz(at)macsells.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Hello. No, I'm not a logger but I do have 10 acres of mixed fir, spruce, and alder timber that I cut a bit now and then and have a self-loader come and haul out a load. I have some spruce that are about 5' in diameter that I hope will provide some good aircraft wood some day. I wish I had some of the "prettier" woods that you have for building cabinets and furniture, although I did do all the trim in my house from my own alder--I made boards with a chainsaw and my neighbor has a small planer. I hope you are making good progress on your project. I have my Piet framed up and now have to find a place to assemble it for installation of controls, landing gear, engine, etc. Mac in Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: back to the piet finally > > Hi Mac, > > Are you a logger? That is what my son and I are doing > right now. Wish I had some nice spruce to cut. Our > logs are all oaks and hickory, of which neither is > very good for building an airplane with, it might be > strong, but it would fly like a lead sled. :) > > Doc > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2004
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: back to the piet finally
Mac, I'll trade some fine Red or White Oak, or even some Black Walnut for some of that wonderful Spruce. I just love working in that stuff. The oaks and walnut do make beautiful furniture, but I love building airplanes more. I've decided to go beyond the Piet and convert my project into a 75% Curtis JN-4D that will have some Piet characterics as well as those of the Standard. I'm back to building more ribs (I'll need 50 altogether) and I am ready to install controls and hardware. Glad to see your making great progress with your project. Best of luck and a Happy New Year to you all. Doc > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Subject: Rib Cap Strip Wood
In a message dated 12/26/04 6:36:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, tmbrant1(at)netzero.net writes: > Wondering what's the best place to purchase rib material. I used select Port Oxford Cedar, from the local lumber yard. Very nice wood to work with, and ideal for the job. If you're cutting your own cap strip on the table saw, be sure to cut the entire ship set of cap strip to the same setting on your rip fence, before removing your rip fence. In other words, cut ALL the 1/4" dimension, before moving your rip fence, and cut ALL the 1/2" dimension before moving your rip fence. This way, you won't need a planner. Cut a lot more than you need, then select from this batch, and remove any defects, and what's left is the entire ship set of cap strip. This way the entire ship set of cap strip will be the same dimensions, and it will not give you any problems in the jig. A few thousands difference in the 1/2" dimension of the cap strip, will show up in the rib jig, when you butt up the verticals to the cap strips, and the gussets don't lay perfectly flat. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
In a message dated 12/26/04 1:46:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, TBYH(at)aol.com writes: > I want to build my own tailwheel -- don't want to use a tailskid. Would > like to avoid buying a commercial tailwheel assembly. What makes the best > tailwheel? Should I use Bernie's design for the strut and attachment but simply > attach a wheel at the end of the spring steel? What kind of wheel? I think I > read that one fellow used a hockey puck....Am open to suggestions... Fred, I used the plans tail skid for quite a while, even flew to Brodhead & Oshkosh '03 with the tail skid. Let me tell ya...the skid is a GRASS ONLY tail dragger. I almost lost it on hard surface, several times !! I'm sure there were several chuckles from the crowd watching me land at Oshkosh !! When I got back, I bought a heavy duty 3 1/2" caster wheel from Harbor Freight, and installed a bronze bushing in it, and installed it on the end of the tail skid, using the single arm method. The wheel didn't last long. The bronze bushing quickly wore out and the wheel wobbled a little, even though I kept it lubricated with grease. The tire came loose a little from the plastic wheel, also. I have since bought a 3 1/2" wheel from Wicks, with the ball bearings in it, for $16, and it works fairly well. My only squawk about that wheel is it should have been a 4" wheel, because in tall grass I have to use differential braking to make sharp turns. Since I built the axle to the 3 1/2" dimension wheel, I can't go to a 4" wheel, unless I cut off the wheel mount, and start over. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Subject: Traveling West
Dennis E. , Lynn K., or any one else in the Wichita area - I'm leaving tonight, to go back to Wichita from Wheeling. I am going to stop at Wicks, in St. Louis, on Thursday Afternoon, to haul another load of tubing for the Tailwind home, in my brand new '94 Toyota Celica. That should be a sight, with all the tubing sticking out the back from St. Louis to Wichita !! If anyone needs anything delivered from Wicks to Wichita, let me know what you need, and I'll pick it up for you. Let me know now, and I'll check my e-mail late this evening. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "wesley hartson" <wes.shirl(at)webiowa.net>
, , "JCPenney" , , "Grocery Newsletter" , "Famous Dave's" , , "daily-gibbleguts Confirmation $from Lyris ListManager$" , "Daily Joke" , , "Carol Wright Gifts" , "Amazin Humor"
Subject: Address Change
Date: Dec 29, 2004
report Our e-mail address is changing. Replace the old (wes.shirl(at)webiowa.net) with our new address -- (wes.shirl(at)netzero.com). This is effective immediately. Thank You. S. Hartson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: aircraft repairman - need info
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Talk to your Congressman...Isn't that part of what you're paying him for?..Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - need info > > Merry Christmas (and I'm not afraid to say it that way) everybody. > > I need some information. As you all may have noticed, I've been concerned > that some Federal Aviation Regs regarding the application for Repairman > Certificate may be either fraudulently or at least inconsistently be being > applied. I have first-hand knowledge that > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2004
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: piet ribs - material specs
With this size material, and only 60" long you shouldn't have any trouble avoiding all knots and runout. Any size knot is going to affect the curve to some degree. The more grains the better, 12 to 16. 16 is only 4 in the 1/4" dimension and 8 if you orient them verticaly. Horizontal is better for bending. Clif > > > Thanks guys for your comments on the piet ribs... > > I can't find my guidelines on wood for the rib material - does it need to follow the same guidelines as the spar? IE: grains per inch, slope, knot size, etc... > > Tom B. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 29, 2004
Subject: Re: magneto plug wires
Pieters, I am having a hard time figuring out how to run the wires from my mags on a cont A65. The firing order is 1324 and looking from the pilots seat the rotation to the terminals should be clockwise as they drive off the crankshaft gear not the camshaft. I have about 4 cont engine overhaul manuals and when I look at the wiring diagrams and follow the wires to the cylinders it seems to be 1243. Anybody know what I am doing wrong? Ken Conrad in warm December ,no snow, Iowa ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cgalley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: magneto plug wires
Date: Dec 30, 2004
You are right that the firing order is 1,3,2,4 for ALL small 4 cylinder Continentals Forget the pictures which may or may not be right. The last AD for my Bellanca was for a picture in the owners manual that showed the aileron cables wrong. This was over 50 years after it was first published. Evidently someone used it to rig and crashed. Remember that right mag does the top plugs and the other the bottom plugs. They are not split like Lycomings. If you run your engine as an A-75 at a faster speed of 2600 instead of 2300, the book recommends a small timing change. Hope that you have the big rod ends drilled for squirt oil. Makes a big difference in longevity plus you can run it faster for the additional 10 HP. Have to use a flatter pitched prop is the ONLY change necessary. Remember that if you run the plug wires in the wrong order. If it runs, it will miss like crazy. Been there, done that.. Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: <Wizzard187(at)aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: magneto plug wires > > Pieters, I am having a hard time figuring out how to run the wires from my > mags on a cont A65. The firing order is 1324 and looking from the pilots > seat the rotation to the terminals should be clockwise as they drive off the > crankshaft gear not the camshaft. > I have about 4 cont engine overhaul manuals and when I look at the > wiring diagrams and follow the wires to the cylinders it seems to be 1243. > Anybody know what I am doing wrong? > Ken Conrad in warm December ,no snow, Iowa > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Stinemetze" <stinemetze(at)mpks.net>
Subject: Spar Thickness
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Hi Pieters, I'm back with another dumb question. The original Piet plans show 1 inch thick spars with routed sections to save weight. The full-size rib pattern from BHP shows 1 inch thick spars also. The three piece wing supplemental sheet calls the spars three quarters of an inch. The Piet wood kit I received from Aircraft Spruce contains spars that are three quarters of an inch. Since I am building my wing rib jig now, I need to know which width to set it up for and whether to contact ASS for a spar exchange. HELP! 'Ol Tom McPherson Kansas ____ | ____ \8/ / \ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2004
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: magneto plug wires
In Tony Bingelis's book Firewall Forward he notes that you hook up the spark plug wires to the cylinder to fire next so the firing order of your Continental is 1-3-2-4 (those are cylinder numbers not plug wire numbers) so the first one to fire happens to be cylinder #1 the second one to fire is cylinder #3, the third one to fire is cylinder #2, the fourth one to fire is cylinder #4. Hope this helps, Ken ! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Subject: Rubecks Ribs
Charlie Rubecks is located in Spencer, IN. I don't have a phone or address. I purchased a set of ribs from Charlie this past summer at Brodhead. He uses Port Orford cedar. Very nice ribs. While I can build ribs, they wouldn't be nearly as nice or as uniform as Charlie's and it would take me two months to build the 31 ribs for a 3-piece wing. Charlie's are like works of art and I will feel badly covering them up in the wing...and by the way, I asked a fellow at Brodhead if $300 was a good deal. Dumb question. He replied that he'd be happy to build me a set -- for $900! Charlie is building these things at less than minimum wage rates! He deserves and probably could get much more. Anyway, that's my rationale for purchasing the ribs from Charlie -- and he showed me in careful detail how to attach leading and trailing edges. Got back from Wicks (Highland, IL) last night with some plywood for my Piet's floor and sides. Wow that's a long drive from Wisconsin! I don't think those Illinois maps are the correct scale north-south-wise! Wonderful folks. And if you visit them you must take a tour of their pipe organ factory! Wicks has been building pipe organs since 1906 or so.. Talk about craftsmanship and just plain a fascinating process to see...would love to have one of those free shopping sprees in their wood crib (they use lots of Sitka spruce)! Oh, get breakfast at Buzzies just around the corner when visiting Wicks...great food, good service, reasonable prices -- don't mind the railroad memorabilia. In fact, every time one of us aviator types goes there we should give them some airplane pics and signs and help them redecorate...so what if they're right next to the RR tracks... Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: magneto plug wires
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Ken, Once you have determined the direction of rotation of the magneto distributor rotor and identified the #1 lead outlet, the magneto sparking sequence will be 1-2-3-4 in the direction of rotation, starting from #1 outlet. On your A-65, the rotor will turn to the right (as viewed from the rear of the engine). The firing order of your Continental A-65 is, as you have noted, 1-3-2-4. Run the ignition leads from #1 distributor outlet to #1 cylinder, #2 distributor outlet to #3 cylinder, #3 distributor outlet to #2 cylinder and #4 distributor outlet to #4 cylinder. As Cy says, the left magneto (as viewed from the rear of the engine) fires the lower plugs and the right magneto fires the upper plugs. Hope this helps. Graham Hansen (In Alberta, Canada where it is snowing and too cold to be fooling around with Pietenpols.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spar Thickness
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Tom, It's builders choice. The 3/4" solid spar is easy, simple and equally strong as the original routed 1" spar. If you want to experiment with built-up spars using plywood webs and spruce or fir flanges then you'll want to build your ribs to handle 1" spars. If you already have the 3/4" spar material then use it, don't complicate your life. I have a good article from an early '60's Sport Aviation on designing built up spars. I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends a self-addressed, stamped envelope to: Greg Cardinal 5236 Shoreview Ave. So. Minneapolis, MN 55417 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Stinemetze To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:22 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spar Thickness Hi Pieters, I'm back with another dumb question. The original Piet plans show 1 inch thick spars with routed sections to save weight. The full-size rib pattern from BHP shows 1 inch thick spars also. The three piece wing supplemental sheet calls the spars three quarters of an inch. The Piet wood kit I received from Aircraft Spruce contains spars that are three quarters of an inch. Since I am building my wing rib jig now, I need to know which width to set it up for and whether to contact ASS for a spar exchange. HELP! 'Ol Tom McPherson Kansas ____ | ____ \8/ / \ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2004
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rubecks Ribs
DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________________________________________________________ <001701c4ec92$6a01cde0$d7384e0c@TedB>
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
From: horzpool(at)goldengate.net
Hi Ted The Matco with spring assy is too heavy, if I can save 5 lb back there then I can eliminate the 30 amp battery on the firewall. Also there is a bit of play in the spring/wheel assy which will give the wheel some ability to lean one way or another could be a problem in controll. I'm down in your area now for a couple of weeks sailing to the Keys. Any Piet events coming up around here? Dick > > > Dick, > > What didn't you like about the Matco wheel assy.? > > Ted >> From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel >> >> I usedc the leaf spring with a Matco wheel assy. I don't like it and >> will > be changing >> it over the winter. I am going to the design in the plans with a much >> lighter wheel. Keep us posted on what you find for a wheel, I will be > looking >> also. >> Dick N. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
From: horzpool(at)goldengate.net
Dale Keep the Ice nice and slick for me. I'll be home in a couple of weeks. How did your inspection go? I didnt see a post on it and wasnt able to get to the last EAA meeting. Dick > Richard > Take a look at clothes dryer wheel they are lignt and rugged. > I didn't see you on the ice iceboating today. > Dale Johnson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Navratil > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: 12/26/2004 5:29:49 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > > > I usedc the leaf spring with a Matco wheel assy. I don't like it and will > be changing it over the winter. I am going to the design in the plans > with a much lighter wheel. Keep us posted on what you find for a wheel, I > will be looking also. > Dick N. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TBYH(at)aol.com > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:45 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > > > I want to build my own tailwheel -- don't want to use a tailskid. Would > like to avoid buying a commercial tailwheel assembly. What makes the best > tailwheel? Should I use Bernie's design for the strut and attachment but > simply attach a wheel at the end of the spring steel? What kind of wheel? > I think I read that one fellow used a hockey puck....Am open to > suggestions... > > By the way -- had to prove it for myself -- bought a nice piece of 5-ply > birch plywood from Home Depot. Stuck a little piece in boiling water -- > after two hours I peeled it apart like a banana! Not that any Piet would > be exposed to boiling water for 2 hours, but I won't be using that stuff > in my plane... > > Hope you all had a nice Christmas! And will have a happy New Year! "Here's > to the duck that swam in the lake and never lost a feather -- may this > time in another year we'll still all be together..." > > Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Torque Tube fit
Date: Dec 30, 2004
I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Final Inspection
Date: Dec 30, 2004
Hi Dick, Dale and I had to re-submit our paperwork to the MIDO office because they lost the first package. I'm meeting with the FAA guy next Tues. or Wed. The inspection should happen shortly after that. Lesson learned? If you live within driving distance of your local MIDO office, hand deliver the paperwork. We would have been flying by now..... Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel > horzpool(at)goldengate.net > > Dale > Keep the Ice nice and slick for me. I'll > be home in a couple of weeks. > How did your inspection go? I didnt see a > post on it and wasnt able to > get to the last EAA meeting. > Dick > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2004
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rubecks Ribs
nk.net> As promised, Charlie's mailing address on the crates is: Charles Rubeck RR7 Box 520 Spencer, Indiana 47460 Jim >Charlie's phone number is (812) 829-2069. > >His address is: > >Charles Rubeck >12225 S Rd >Spencer, Indiana 47460 > >I saw a set of Charlie's ribs at the fly mart at the Sun & Fun this year. >I would have bought them then, but I'd flown to the show (commercially, as >a passenger) and had no good way to get them home. I asked around and >found Charlie working in the (where else?) woodworking workshop. > >I bought a set from him a couple months ago. They arrived well-packed and >intact. Well-packed is really an unfair understatement; they were >beautifully crated in two different hand-made wooden boxes, and the ribs >were snugly fit inside with foam padding all around. I've never seen >anything as well-packed. The ribs themselves are beautiful, and he also >included some of the little rib-related parts (I'm assuming they're >aileron ends), and a handful of pairs of small chunks of wood, which I'm >guessing are glue samples (Charlie uses T-88). I asked if the $300/set was >enough, and that's all he wanted. I felt like I robbed him. In addition to >the $300, Charlie asked for an additional $25 for crating (also a steal), >and I paid his UPS costs as a COD. > >(The above address is the one I hand-wrote on his business card way back >when. I'll verify it's the same as the one on the crates tonight). > >Jim Ash > > >-----Original Message----- >From: TBYH(at)aol.com >Sent: Dec 30, 2004 11:29 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rubecks Ribs > >Charlie Rubecks is located in Spencer, IN. I don't have a phone or >address. I purchased a set of ribs from Charlie this past summer at >Brodhead. He uses Port Orford cedar. Very nice ribs. While I can build >ribs, they >.... > > >Forums. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sean Caranna" <VP2Flyer(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: New Pietenpol Forums
Date: Dec 31, 2004
I've started a new aircraft homebuilding forum at http://www.WingsForum.com "They" say that a picture is worth a thousand words. The ability to attach spreadsheets, documents, and CAD files can speak volumes. I am not asking anyone to leave this list. I'm just offering an additional resource that will offer easily accessible photo and data file content intergraded with the message threads. http://www.wingsforum.com also has form based email and private messaging that will nonpublic communications while protecting your email address from SPAM email harvesters. http://www.WingsForum.com was created because the email based groups just can't compete with the forum format for organization of topics, searching information already covered by a group, and relevancy of information presented. I can't tell you how many HOURS of my life have been wasted scrolling through off topic threads and information irrelevant to my search on Yahoo and MSN groups. Lets face it, if you are looking for info on your spar why should you need to scroll through 30 email post on firewalls 5 about rudders and 2 about nothing at all? At http://www.WingsForum.com you will find topics well organized, pictures and relevant files directly attached to their post, private messaging, and more all on one site. Forum membership is, and will always be, FREE. Try in out, it cost nothing, and you just might like it. If you don't like it just let me know how I can improve the site. Email Digest are available for those who prefer them. You can customize them for what forums you want to watch, if you want a short excerpt or full messages of up to 36,000 characters, and what time of day they will be delivered to you. Users just click the Digest link at the top of the page once logged in to enable them. Thanks for your consideration, Sean C. Caranna ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Repairman Certificate Tirade
Date: Dec 31, 2004
> > Hello everybody. I was able to work out my problem in a rather unconventional way. It seems that the Tampa FSDO was extremely helpful after all. I , as some of you remember, had been told I was required to make a 8 hr round trip to Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" and signed off for my repair man certificate. This after I payed a DAR $400 to inspect my plane. When I asked why this was happening and relayed that my adjoining FSDO (Atlanta) was not requiring this, I was told "because our manual " says we do it his way. Paraphrased of course. Well I've been on a tirade for two weeks about the inconsistent application of FAR requirements, use of DARs, bureacracy, the weather, anything else I could bitch about. As it turned out a very helpful person from the FAA arranged a meeting at a thrird location nearer my fair city. We exchanged my drivers license ( I proved I am who I am) for the official FAA sign off and I now possess a repairman's certificate for NX327BC without having to drive to Tampa for the 2 minute - 26 second ordeal. I might add that they WERE helpful after all - once I complained and showed my rear end. So as you all approach your inspections, contact your FSDO and talk with them. They are (or can be) very helpful. I practiced high speed (how high speed can you get in a Grega/Piet) taxiing today till I got tired of it. At one point she got tired of the ground and decided to take off. No surprises. I simply pulled power kept directional control with the rudder and let her settle right in on all three. I am amazed at how stable the Grega is. With the wide landing gear, it's just NOT a problem on the ground or during transition. The Piet I have flown had a narrower gear and was way more squirrely. Well happy New Year everybody - Talk next year! Bert http://bconoly.tripod.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Torque Tube fit
Date: Jan 01, 2005
Richard, When you say your torque tube does not fit just where does it not fit? I had no trouble placeing mine in for a temporary trial fit. I have not as yet placed the rudder bar as I am not sure as just what the distance from the seat front support it should be positioned. Other than that, Where is your problem? I may have a problem and not know it. Happy New Year. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net Richard, When you say your torque tube does not fit just where does it not fit? I had no trouble placeing mine in for a temporary trial fit. I have not as yet placed the rudder bar as I am not sure as just what the distance from the seat front support it should be positioned. Other than that, Where is your problem? I may have a problem and not know it. Happy New Year. Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Aileron control horn and stops
I saw a picture of a Piet cockpit with an extreamly simple aileron control stop, it was two small wood blocks glued to the cockpit floor under each end of the aileron control horn. Can anyone think of a problem with this? And a question for you folks with flying Piets, what is the distance between the floor and the ends of the aileron control horn at full aileron deflecttion? Thanks -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron control horn and stops
Date: Jan 01, 2005
Rick, That pic could have been mine. Just glued an ash block to the deck under the horn arm, with a piece of leather glued to the top of each. The height was determined by the horn hitting the stop just before the aleron contacted the bottom of the wing. My inspecting DAR liked it. Said it was simple and couldn't fail. (He is a pylon racer in a Cassutt Racer) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron control horn and stops > > I saw a picture of a Piet cockpit with an extreamly simple aileron > control stop, it was two small wood blocks glued to the cockpit floor > under each end of the aileron control horn. Can anyone think of a > problem with this? And a question for you folks with flying Piets, > what is the distance between the floor and the ends of the aileron > control horn at full aileron deflecttion? > > Thanks > > -- > Rick Holland > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Scott tailwheel
Date: Jan 01, 2005
Howdy, folks; Well, the Piet is at the welder's today, in line for cabane strut and landing gear repairs. Made the 200 mi. trip on a trailer behind my wimpy little Pathfinder yesterday, but it was worth it for all the stares I got. Anyway, my question is on the Scott 2000 tailwheel, which is the small one with a single "arm" (no fork), solid tire, steerable but with "break-over" free swivel. It's developed a shimmy and seems to have lots of play in the free swivel mechanism. Looking at the price of a replacement arm assembly, it's $169, which makes most of us Pieters pause to see if we really need to spend that kind of money for something. Anybody know if these things can be taken apart and worked on, or am I going to have to just pay the $$ for the replacement? I already know about using different springs on the L and R tailwheel steering chains and will try that prior to taxi tests, but the mechanism does seem to have excessive play anyway. Thanks, and Happy 2005! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Scott tailwheel
Oscar, I've disassembled Scott tailwheels before and there are quite a few parts in them. Just keep up with where everything goes. It could be berings making it shimmy. Might neet to replace them. I sure would try working on it before I spent all that money. Some catalongs (I think WagAero for one) has a diagram showing the parts and where they assemble, this could be of great help. Hope it works out for you. How old (worn) is the tailwheel? Happy New Year to all. Doc > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "parts4u" <parts4u(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Tailwheel
Date: Jan 01, 2005
It's not the tail wheel . you need anti shim springs on your tail wheel. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Subject: Re: Aileron control horn and stops
In a message dated 1/1/05 11:35:38 AM Central Standard Time, at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: << I saw a picture of a Piet cockpit with an extreamly simple aileron control stop, it was two small wood blocks glued to the cockpit floor under each end of the aileron control horn. Can anyone think of a problem with this? And a question for you folks with flying Piets, what is the distance between the floor and the ends of the aileron control horn at full aileron deflecttion? >> Rick, For my aileron stops, I use the inside of my thighs !! There is No Way, I could go full aileron stick, with my feet on the rudder bar. If I move my leg, and go full stick, so the bottom of one aileron touches the aileron spar, there is probably 1/8" or 3/16" between the horn on the stick, and the floor. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Subject: Re: Scott tailwheel
In a message dated 1/1/05 4:32:54 PM Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: << my question is on the Scott 2000 tailwheel, which is the small one with a single "arm" (no fork), solid tire, steerable but with "break-over" free swivel. It's developed a shimmy and seems to have lots of play in the free swivel mechanism. Looking at the price of a replacement arm assembly, it's $169, which makes most of us Pieters pause to see if we really need to spend that kind of money for something. Anybody know if these things can be taken apart and worked on, or am I going to have to just pay the $$ for the replacement? I already know about using different springs on the L and R tailwheel steering chains and will try that prior to taxi tests, but the mechanism does seem to have excessive play anyway. >> Oscar, If the top of the vertical axis of the pivot, is pointing too far forward, it will cause a shimmy, and could be what wore out the bearings. That's what happens to shopping carts...someone bangs it into the curb, bends the caster, and that's the cart I seem to always pick. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Subject: Re: Spar Thickness
In a message dated 12/30/04 10:22:26 AM Central Standard Time, stinemetze(at)mpks.net writes: << The Piet wood kit I received from Aircraft Spruce contains spars that are three quarters of an inch. Since I am building my wing rib jig now, I need to know which width to set it up for and whether to contact ASS for a spar exchange. HELP! >> Tom, Set up your jig for the 3/4" spars, and use the quarter sawn, straight grain, spars that you have. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "parts4u" <parts4u(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Spar Thickness
Date: Jan 02, 2005
carry on your ok with 3/4" spars ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Thickness > > In a message dated 12/30/04 10:22:26 AM Central Standard Time, > stinemetze(at)mpks.net writes: > > << The Piet wood kit I received from Aircraft > Spruce contains spars that are three quarters of an inch. Since I am > building my wing rib jig now, I need to know which width to set it up > for and whether to contact ASS for a spar exchange. HELP! >> > > Tom, > Set up your jig for the 3/4" spars, and use the quarter sawn, straight > grain, > spars that you have. > > Chuck G. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "parts4u" <parts4u(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Scott tailwheel
Date: Jan 02, 2005
replace brass inset bearings are fine put antishimmy springs on ! ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Scott tailwheel > > In a message dated 1/1/05 4:32:54 PM Central Standard Time, > taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: > > << my question is on the Scott 2000 tailwheel, which is the small one > with a single "arm" (no fork), solid tire, steerable but with "break-over" > free swivel. It's developed a shimmy and seems to have lots of play in > the > free swivel mechanism. Looking at the price of a replacement arm > assembly, > it's $169, which makes most of us Pieters pause to see if we really need > to > spend that kind of money for something. Anybody know if these things can > be > taken apart and worked on, or am I going to have to just pay the $$ for > the > replacement? I already know about using different springs on the L and R > tailwheel steering chains and will try that prior to taxi tests, but the > mechanism does seem to have excessive play anyway. >> > > Oscar, > If the top of the vertical axis of the pivot, is pointing too far forward, > it > will cause a shimmy, and could be what wore out the bearings. That's what > happens to shopping carts...someone bangs it into the curb, bends the > caster, > and that's the cart I seem to always pick. > > Chuck G. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "parts4u" <parts4u(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron control horn and stops
Date: Jan 02, 2005
go with what rick said ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron control horn and stops > > In a message dated 1/1/05 11:35:38 AM Central Standard Time, > at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: > > << I saw a picture of a Piet cockpit with an extreamly simple aileron > control stop, it was two small wood blocks glued to the cockpit floor > under each end of the aileron control horn. Can anyone think of a > problem with this? And a question for you folks with flying Piets, > what is the distance between the floor and the ends of the aileron > control horn at full aileron deflecttion? >> > > Rick, > For my aileron stops, I use the inside of my thighs !! There is No Way, I > could go full aileron stick, with my feet on the rudder bar. If I move my > leg, > and go full stick, so the bottom of one aileron touches the aileron spar, > there is probably 1/8" or 3/16" between the horn on the stick, and the > floor. > > Chuck G. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Subject: Re: Spar Thickness
Caution 3/4 spars ok however make your spar positions on the rib jig adjustable for 3/4 and 1" spar openings to accomodate the root ribs, center plate and outboard ribs which fit over the spar and spar plates and steel lift fittings. 3/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 1" Just a caution. If building the 3 pc wing this will require 8 ribs of 1" opening. Carve necessary clearances for steel. Corky in humid Louisiana but happy to be a part of this new year. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Subject: Re: Spar Thickness
In a message dated 1/2/05 9:00:19 AM Central Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes: << Caution 3/4 spars ok however make your spar positions on the rib jig adjustable for 3/4 and 1" spar openings to accomodate the root ribs, center plate and outboard ribs which fit over the spar and spar plates and steel lift fittings. 3/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 1" Just a caution. If building the 3 pc wing this will require 8 ribs of 1" opening. Carve necessary clearances for steel. >> Very good point !! Another consideration might be to alter the size of the aft gusset of the rib that is at the inboard end of the aileron cut out. Or, you could just install the extended gusset while you are building the ribs, which would mean you have a R/H and a L/H rib in that location. Build new rib jig, so that the gussets and the upright x next to the spars, are spaced 28 1/16" to 28 1/8" apart. This should be the exact dimention between the spars, with the exception of the 3 center ribs, and the outboard ribs where the struts attach. These locations have 1/8" plywood doublers on each side of the spar. On my Model A Radiator installation, I used the center section of the wing, forward of the front spar, and designed so as to allow the top of the radiator to be within the wing. Two 1/8" plywood L.E. ribs were spaced evenly between, and paralell to, R1 and L1. These ribs will accept the 1/16" plywood L.E. (on top), and the 1/32" plywood (within the radiator cavity). I had the radiator custom built so the top tank was inside the wing, out of the prop slipstream, and it was the width of the cabanes, and extended down about 12", so you could see under the radiator. Hinges are numbered 1 thru 6, beginning on the left wing tip. Lots of places on the wing needed to be drilled using Granpap's hand crank drill (chordless !!), because of clearance reasons. Cable guide blocks were numbered 1 thru 8, starting at the top left. Jury strut C/L is 37" outboard of C/L of cabane strut attachments. I estimated the placement of the jury strut attachments by referring to the picture of the Pietenpol on the 1999 I A M Union Calender. The 1/8" Plywood doublers, located at the center section and the lift strut attachments, should have Spaded Ends (football shaped). These doublers bring the width of the spar to the plans width of 1", and allow the plans dimentions to be used for all the fittings. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Subject: Timeless Voices article
Here is a Dave Harris article to read: http://www.timelessvoices.org/news/voiceoftheweek/040206_dave_harris.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube fit
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Alex, The fit problem I had with my torque tube was due to its length. When I tried to fit the completed torque tube (Pulley supports and aileron horn welded in place) the aileron horn and front pulley support hit the front seat back before I could get the rear of the torque tube to clear the front of the rear seat. What I finally wound up doing is putting a 3/4" grove with a rotary sander in the front cross brace of the rear seat. Since the center of my rear seat is removable, I am going to just rebrace the seat and put a small cover over the hole. I think this is what others have done in the past that have had the same problem. The misfit was not off by much, so I am sure that on some Piet's the torque tube goes in fine. I spent today mounting my tailfeathers and trying to locate the ideal position for the elevator bellcrank to get rid of cable slack and rubbing of the cables on the horizontal stab. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube fit Richard, When you say your torque tube does not fit just where does it not fit? I had no trouble placeing mine in for a temporary trial fit. I have not as yet placed the rudder bar as I am not sure as just what the distance from the seat front support it should be positioned. Other than that, Where is your problem? I may have a problem and not know it. Happy New Year. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: General metal working question
Am starting to work on controls and have a question about the fabrication of several parts that involve smashing (for lack of a better term) the ends of 4130 tubing, like the walking beam. Is heat necessary prior to smashing the ends or do you just put the end in a vice or beat the hell out of it with a hammer? Most of the pictures I have seen of these parts leads me to believe that less barberic methods must be employed. Thanks (Metally and mentally challenged) -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Torque Tube fit
Date: Jan 03, 2005
Rick, Are you building the extended fuselage? That is what mine is and perhaps that has something to do with it. I have no problem installing my torque tube controls. Alex -------------- Original message -------------- Alex, The fit problem I had with my torque tube was due to its length. When I tried to fit the completed torque tube (Pulley supports and aileron horn welded in place) the aileron horn and front pulley support hit the front seat back before I could get the rear of the torque tube to clear the front of the rear seat. What I finally wound up doing is putting a 3/4" grove with a rotary sander in the front cross brace of the rear seat. Since the center of my rear seat is removable, I am going to just rebrace the seat and put a small cover over the hole. I think this is what others have done in the past that have had the same problem. The misfit was not off by much, so I am sure that on some Piet's the torque tube goes in fine. I spent today mounting my tailfeathers and trying to locate the ideal position for the elevator bellcrank to get rid of cable slack and rubbing of the cables on the horizontal stab. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube fit Richard, When you say your torque tube does not fit just where does it not fit? I had no trouble placeing mine in for a temporary trial fit. I have not as yet placed the rudder bar as I am not sure as just what the distance from the seat front support it should be positioned. Other than that, Where is your problem? I may have a problem and not know it. Happy New Year. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net Rick, Are you building the extended fuselage? That is what mine is and perhaps that has something to do with it. I have no problem installing my torque tube controls. Alex
-------------- Original message -------------- Alex, The fit problem I had with my torque tube was due to its length. When I tried to fit the completed torque tube (Pulley supports and aileron horn welded in place) the aileron horn and front pulley support hit the front seat back before I could get the rear of the torque tube to clear the front of the rear seat. What I finally wound up doing is putting a 3/4" grove with a rotary sander in the front cross brace of the rear seat. Since the center of my rear seat is removable, I am going to just rebrace the seat and put a small cover over the hole. I think this is what others have done in the past that have had the same problem. The misfit was not off by much, so I am sure that on some Piet's the torque tube goes in fine. I spent today mounting my tailfeathers and trying to locate the ideal positionfor the elevator bellcrank to get rid of cable slack and rubbing of the cables on the horizontal stab. Rick
----- Original Message ----- From: <A title=alexms1(at)comcast.net "> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube fit Richard, When you say your torque tube does not fit just where does it not fit? I had no trouble placeing mine in for a temporary trial fit. I have not as yet placed the rudder bar as I am not sure as just what the distance from the seat front support it should be positioned. Other than that, Where is your problem? I may have a problem and not know it. Happy New Year. Alex S.
-------------- Original message -------------- I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J.C. Wheeler" <jc@clarksville-arkansas.us>
Subject: Re: General metal working question
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Hello Rick, I am certainly not a metal man, but I would guess that you flatten it cold, My GUESS!!! J.C. Signature of: J.C. Wheeler, The EC-47 History Site. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: General metal working question > > Am starting to work on controls and have a question about the > fabrication of several parts that involve smashing (for lack of a > better term) the ends of 4130 tubing, like the walking beam. Is heat > necessary prior to smashing the ends or do you just put the end in a > vice or beat the hell out of it with a hammer? Most of the pictures I > have seen of these parts leads me to believe that less barberic > methods must be employed. > > Thanks > > (Metally and mentally challenged) > > -- > Rick Holland > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: General metal working question
Date: Jan 02, 2005
Rick No don't do it cold as this may cause cracking of the tubing. Also, don't just whack it with a hammer. Been there done that. Basically what you want to do is take some angle iron, I used about a 6-inch chunk of an old bed frame. Then I cut a 2-inch (ish) slot at the vertex (?) and bent one of the sides into a gradual curve, probably a 3-inch or so radius. I played with it until it looked right. Take a mount this in your bench vice, I had to secure it with some duct tape. I marked where I wanted the end of the tubing to go on the tape before heating the tube. I then heated the tubing until it was red hot and squished it in the vice. Worked out nicely but I ended up with the squished ends a bit wavy. Perhaps if you don't squish them so far or put in a piece of flat metal in the tub while you a squishing it might work better. Make the tube longer then you need an cut it after you squish the ends. here is a small picture of metal brackets I described File Squish 1 is the setup to only squish one side of the tubing, like on the rod connecting the two sticks File Squish 2 is for squishing both sides of the tubing like on the rudder bar. Also you need to read the articles by Tony Bingelis called Making Fittings - part 1, 2 and 3. They are on EAA's website under the members section on their website.......look for (also in his books if you own them (if not you should)) homebuilders building articles basic construction. or here if it works http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/basics/articles.html Chris Tracy former "metally" challenged still not metally gifted Sacramento CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: General metal working question > > Am starting to work on controls and have a question about the > fabrication of several parts that involve smashing (for lack of a > better term) the ends of 4130 tubing, like the walking beam. Is heat > necessary prior to smashing the ends or do you just put the end in a > vice or beat the hell out of it with a hammer? Most of the pictures I > have seen of these parts leads me to believe that less barberic > methods must be employed. > > Thanks > > (Metally and mentally challenged) > > -- > Rick Holland > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube fit
Date: Jan 02, 2005
I left off the plywood face on the bottom front of the seat and came up through the floor. Works great for now. I plan on figuring out some way to make this piece of plywood removable in the future. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube fit Alex, The fit problem I had with my torque tube was due to its length. When I tried to fit the completed torque tube (Pulley supports and aileron horn welded in place) the aileron horn and front pulley support hit the front seat back before I could get the rear of the torque tube to clear the front of the rear seat. What I finally wound up doing is putting a 3/4" grove with a rotary sander in the front cross brace of the rear seat. Since the center of my rear seat is removable, I am going to just rebrace the seat and put a small cover over the hole. I think this is what others have done in the past that have had the same problem. The misfit was not off by much, so I am sure that on some Piet's the torque tube goes in fine. I spent today mounting my tailfeathers and trying to locate the ideal position for the elevator bellcrank to get rid of cable slack and rubbing of the cables on the horizontal stab. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: 12/31/04 9:44:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube fit Richard, When you say your torque tube does not fit just where does it not fit? I had no trouble placeing mine in for a temporary trial fit. I have not as yet placed the rudder bar as I am not sure as just what the distance from the seat front support it should be positioned. Other than that, Where is your problem? I may have a problem and not know it. Happy New Year. Alex S. -------------- Original message -------------- I just finished the rest of the welding on my torque tube and can't seem to get it to fit. From previous posts I new this was a problem so I mocked up the torque tube with wood and plastic. The fit was going to be tight but seemed to work out. Unfortunately the real thing wont fit. I know that Walt Evans and a couple of others have notched the rear seat to clear the rear pulley support, but I hate to do this if their is another solution. Has everyone else run into this same problem or is it just me? If you have what were the solutions? It looks like if I make the side leg openings in the front seat wider than the 6 inches shown on the plans, it may allow the aileron horn enough clearance to get the torque tube in, but I don't want to hog out more wood if it doesn't work. Richard Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Green" <mmml(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re:Pietenpol List: General Metalworking Question
Date: Jan 03, 2005
Rick, thanks for asking the question and Chris, thanks for an answer. I stuffed two lengths of tube yesterday trying the "cold squish in a vise methood"!!!!! Regards, Mike Green Romsey Victoria AUSTRALIA ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: General metal working question
Date: Jan 03, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Chris's method is what I used and it works well. Look in the EAA's Aircraft Welding book - it describes exactly how to do this. I found that it sometimes takes several applications - heat the metal till it glows orange, then shut off the torch and squish it in the vise. You can get it about halfway the first time, then heat it again and squish it almost down to flat. Third time gets it all the way flat. Then I welded the tip closed. Jack Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Congratulations on your Repairman Certificate and high
speedtaxi BERT C......way to go fella with the FSDO people. Finally common sense did actually rule. Good going and the photos of your high speed-tail up runs looked like great fun. Hope the weather cooperates for your first flight. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re:Pietenpol List: General MetalworkingQuestion
Mike, Rick -- I cold squished (in a nice big vise here at work) both my rudder bar ends and bellcrank ends. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: General metal working question
Date: Jan 03, 2005
What alloy are you using? I used 4130 and Pressed it flat with a vice. I didn't heat it for fear of hardening it to the point of being unable to drill it for the fittings. 'Nuther question...I have flattened one end of my rudder bar and I'm in doubt as to how to guarantee that when the other end is flattened, it will wind up in the same plane as the first. Any advice???....Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: General metal working question > Rick > > No don't do it cold as this may cause cracking of the tubing. Also, don't > just whack it with a hammer. Been there done that. Basically what you want > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Goff" <kgoff(at)arkansasusa.com>
Subject: Test - Delete
Date: Jan 03, 2005
Test ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: General metal working question
<004c01c4f157$27c44740$3f375142@Spot> <002e01c4f1df$0d28df80$9d4fd618@knology.net> Clamp a stick to the flattened face and eyeball it vertical to the vice jaws and hold with just a little pressure. hold a stick or ruler to one vice jaw face and sight the two sticks. Repeat until both line up. Then squish away. I have two 3/4" X 3/4" sticks 2' long, one white, one black hanging on my tool wall. They are known by the ancients as winding sticks. http://www.robcosman.ca/RC_Jigs.htm http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/browseproducts/Winding-Sticks.html Clif > .I have flattened one end of my > rudder bar and I'm in doubt as to how to guarantee that when the other end > is flattened, it will wind up in the same plane as the first. Any > advice???....Carl Vought > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: General metal working question
Sounds like most people recommend flatening 4130 tubing by simply smashing it in a vice cold. I will give it a try on some scrap first. Thanks Rick H > > Clamp a stick to the flattened face and eyeball it vertical > to the vice jaws and hold with just a little pressure. hold > a stick or ruler to one vice jaw face and sight the two sticks. > Repeat until both line up. Then squish away. > > I have two 3/4" X 3/4" sticks 2' long, one white, one black > hanging on my tool wall. They are known by the ancients as > winding sticks. > > http://www.robcosman.ca/RC_Jigs.htm >

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-eg

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-eg