Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ek

March 28, 2005 - April 27, 2005



      wise to make such a compromise.  Also, I hadn't made many connections at EAA
      866 yet.  Probably should have had one of the local builders look at it.
      Anyway, after I figured it was just a mockup, I used cheap plywood, and
      carpenter's glue to put the thing together, so it really is just a mockup
      now.
      
      I live in Mims, Fl, which is just north of Titusville (next to Kennedy Space
      Center)
      
      I need to update the website.  I made rib# 12 tonight and bought a corvair
      motor for $100 today.  My progress has been slowed by the illness and death
      of my father Good Friday.  He's the guy standing in my shop in one of the
      last pictures on the website.  That was the last time he was in my shop and
      he will be sorely missed.
      
      Ben
      ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Ben Charvet's Piet/Douglas fir
> > Ben wrote- > > >I built an entire fuselage mock-up with some lumber yard douglas fir > >that I bought before I really knew what the recommendations were > >as far as grain slope, etc. > > I looked at Ben's construction photos and everything looks real nice to me. > But beyond that, I am going to stick my neck waaaay out and ask why in the > world build that nice fuselage mock-up only to discard it due to some of the > wood grain slope being "out of spec"? It's fine to build a mock-up out of > scrap for trying out different configurations of things, and it's fine to do > it for the sheer practice and learning to build, but I don't believe I've > every read anything that says the grain slope is critical for any reason > other than to control twist/warpage due to changes in moisture content of > the wood UNLESS we're talking about wing spars. For a truss structure like > the fuselage, with short spans and everything cross-braced, grain slope as a > factor leading to twist or warpage would not only be insignificant, it would > have to all even itself out unless you intentionally aligned all the pieces > with the grain in the same direction... not very likely with that many small > pieces. > > There are differences in bending strength when comparing loading parallel or > perpendicular to the grain, but for the fuselage structure where the loads > are tension/compression, I don't see that it would make a bit of difference. > If the stock is clear, knot-free, and has tight grain, I'd like to hear > (for the purpose of my own education) why it wouldn't be suitable for the > fuselage truss structure or even for the tail feathers (braced structures). > > I will say this about Douglas fir though... it's a pain to make holes in it > when you're not drilling counter to the grain ("through the layers"). The > layers of grain differ significantly in hardness and the "hard layers" grab > your drill bit and offset the hole you're trying to drill if you don't use a > guide or a short, stiff bit with the work held securely. Having built the > entire structure of my "Flying Squirrel" out of 3/4" square stock fir, I've > made my share of slightly offset holes! > > >There are three other Piets under construction within 40 miles of me > > I must have missed it in your post. Where are you located? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben Charvet" <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Splicing fuselage longerons?
Date: Mar 28, 2005
Hi all, Gordon has some sitka spruce available pretty near to me. Anyone out there have any opinions or experience/advice about splicing fuselage longerons? I read in the EAA wood book that some designs call for laminating up the longerons, and It looks like a 16:1 scarf might work. What do you think? Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ben Charvet's Piet/Douglas fir > > Ben wrote- > > >I built an entire fuselage mock-up with some lumber yard douglas fir > >that I bought before I really knew what the recommendations were > >as far as grain slope, etc. > > I looked at Ben's construction photos and everything looks real nice to me. > But beyond that, I am going to stick my neck waaaay out and ask why in the > world build that nice fuselage mock-up only to discard it due to some of the > wood grain slope being "out of spec"? It's fine to build a mock-up out of > scrap for trying out different configurations of things, and it's fine to do > it for the sheer practice and learning to build, but I don't believe I've > every read anything that says the grain slope is critical for any reason > other than to control twist/warpage due to changes in moisture content of > the wood UNLESS we're talking about wing spars. For a truss structure like > the fuselage, with short spans and everything cross-braced, grain slope as a > factor leading to twist or warpage would not only be insignificant, it would > have to all even itself out unless you intentionally aligned all the pieces > with the grain in the same direction... not very likely with that many small > pieces. > > There are differences in bending strength when comparing loading parallel or > perpendicular to the grain, but for the fuselage structure where the loads > are tension/compression, I don't see that it would make a bit of difference. > If the stock is clear, knot-free, and has tight grain, I'd like to hear > (for the purpose of my own education) why it wouldn't be suitable for the > fuselage truss structure or even for the tail feathers (braced structures). > > I will say this about Douglas fir though... it's a pain to make holes in it > when you're not drilling counter to the grain ("through the layers"). The > layers of grain differ significantly in hardness and the "hard layers" grab > your drill bit and offset the hole you're trying to drill if you don't use a > guide or a short, stiff bit with the work held securely. Having built the > entire structure of my "Flying Squirrel" out of 3/4" square stock fir, I've > made my share of slightly offset holes! > > >There are three other Piets under construction within 40 miles of me > > I must have missed it in your post. Where are you located? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Splicing fuselage longerons?
Date: Mar 28, 2005
Ben, The longerons on NX18235 are spliced. Uppers are spliced in the cockpit area and the lowers are spliced aft. Splices were located where the longerons curve the least. The splices have a slope of 12:1. Greg Cardinal Minneapolis > Charvet" > > Hi all, > > Gordon has some sitka spruce available > pretty near to me. Anyone out there > have any opinions or experience/advice > about splicing fuselage longerons? I > read in the EAA wood book that some designs > call for laminating up the > longerons, and It looks like a 16:1 scarf > might work. What do you think? > > Ben ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Splicing fuselage longerons?
Ben, Greg is right. 12:1 is good enough. You can laminate the longerones and they would be stronger, however, the 1" X 1" spruce is plenty strong enough. Doc --- gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com wrote: > > > Ben, > The longerons on NX18235 are spliced. Uppers > are spliced in the cockpit area and the > lowers are spliced aft. Splices were located > where the longerons curve the least. The > splices have a slope of 12:1. > > Greg Cardinal > Minneapolis > > > > Charvet" > > > > Hi all, > > > > Gordon has some sitka spruce available > > pretty near to me. Anyone out there > > have any opinions or experience/advice > > about splicing fuselage longerons? I > > read in the EAA wood book that some designs > > call for laminating up the > > longerons, and It looks like a 16:1 scarf > > might work. What do you think? > > > > Ben > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: smoke systems
Date: Mar 29, 2005
I know that those of you with smoke systems have different approaches (single-port, multi-port, etc.) and would like to hear a bit about endurance. Mike Cuy's system has a single injection port into one exhaust stack from a hand-pumped lawn sprayer arrangement. I think Chuck's system is multi-port. What I'm wondering about is how far a given amount of smoke oil will go. Some measure of "smoke minutes per quart" or something to give me an indication of how large a smoke reservoir to go with. I'm going single-port on my system. I like the looks of the "chain of puffs" smoke that Mike's system puts out, and assume that the picture at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/smoke02.jpg is a picture of Mike's plane in action? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: smoke systems
Oscar-- I went with a single fitting welded to my exhaust stack----the right rear stack as viewed from the cockpit. The reason I did this is that the rear stacks are not cooled as much as the front from prop blast and because they hold more heat due to the heat muff just below at the Y. My fitting is welded as high as possible (about 1" below the exhaust flange) where the gasses are the hottest. You want complete vaporization of the smoke oil--the hotter the better. During my experimentation I simply purchased a Better Homes & Garden 2 quart poly pump-up bug sprayer from the Wal Mart garden dept. I unscrewed and discarded the wand/hose, cut off the handle with a hacksaw and filed it, (so it would not ding up my rear seat wood/varnish when it sits next to my right hip) then adapted a auto rubber hose to the sprayer nozzle then down to some 1/4" od steel tubing. I squeezed the end of the steel tube and folded it over to block the end. I then drilled 1/8" hole near the end of the blocked end. I pumped up the smoker and stuck this "wand" up my exhaust port until it was about 1" from the exhaust flange. I clamped the tube to my exhaust stack, fired up the engine, (with the plane tied down) and ran the throttle to about 1800 rpm... then hit the thumb button and injected. Wayyy too much smoke. Actually way too much un-burned oil making a mess all over the place. After much experimentation I ended up with welding the fitting to the exhaust stack and drilling two number 60 drill holes side by side thru my exhaust stack wall. As you can see it works fairly well and I'd have to say that with a two quart poly bottle I can do say 8 runs with smoke on down a 3,000 foot runway. Your mileage may vary. If you go with the pneumatic system you 'll find that you can't fill the bug sprayer all the way because you need about 2" of air to pump up above the oil. Then between smoke jobs you find that the intensity of the smoke trail decreases with pressure in the bottle as you would expect. You'll have fun gauging how long you can do on a certain feel to the pump-up resistance. What is fun to to tell the passenger to look over the right side of the cockpit and then put the smoke on doing a right turn. You tell them to look back over the tail and they can see the speed of the plane with how fast the smoke trail goes off behind us. It is a cool thing to watch. Most of my smoke fun is had coming back from fly-in's. I'll see a kids softball game, a back yard picnic, outdoor wedding reception, or Boy Scout camp out going on and I usually throttle back, get to about 600 feet and go thru a few ye-haws and smoke on wifferdils. Just great fun. MIke C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Re: smoke systems
Date: Mar 29, 2005
Oscar, This site doesn't mention anything about tank capacity or "fuel economy", but is informative nonetheless. http://www.kcdawnpatrol.org/smoke.htm Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PIETLARS29(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Mar 29, 2005
Subject: Re: Ben Charvet's Piet/Douglas fir
Ben, meant to get in touch with you sooner re: local lumber sources in central Florida. I am still (9 years) plugging along on my Piet and I made it almostcompletely out of Doug Fir. I found that 84 Lumber has clear fir 2 x4's up to 20 feet. Als ogt some clear fir 2 x 4's from local yards that cater to custom home builders; these were in Orlando and Winter Park. I live in the country South of Tavares. right now I am making a hoist frame so I can install my Ford 'A' in the airframe. I need to get the CG determined so I can proceed with the cowling sheet metal. The piet is covered and the fabric is painted. I used fir for all of the structural members: laminated my spars (8 strips) out of 3/4" fir and made the longerons out of 15/16" pieces. I found that all fir is not created equal and its possible to find some that is no more than 10% heavier that the nominal spruce density. I found that I could get 8 spar strips out of one 2 x 4. and the leading and trailing edge pieces all from a single 2 x 4. Did you know that the EAA Chapter in Merrit Island is building a Piet? Bear in mind that bernie made his design 'hell for stout' (somewhat over designed) so in my opinion the wood choice is not super critical except for keeping the weight down. After all Charley Rubeck has made and sold a ton of Piet ribs , made of red cedar and Larry Harrison made a whole Piet out Poplar. Good Luck Lou Larsen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 29, 2005
Subject: Re: Stromberg needles for Continental engines
Pieters, I just read the neat article on stromberg carbs and the seats used with auto gas and wonder if anyone has any info for Marvel Shebler with probably the same neropreme needles. Thanks, Ken Conrad in nearly spring Iowa ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2005
Subject: Re: smoke systems
Oscar, I'm smoking both pipes !! It's so much fun, it's probably illegal !! Originally, I installed an after-market windshield washer tank (probably a little over a quart), and pump, on the left upper portion of the engine mount, isolated with rubber strips and a custom built bracket. The pump was mounted to the tank, with a short hose from the tank to the pump, then from the pump to the squirters. I use a hose from the pump to a brass Tee mounted on the center part of the engine mount, then branch it via brass compression fittings and tubing, to the two fittings on the aft exhaust pipes, which are about 1" below the flange. I cut a 1/8" pipe coupler in half, and welded each half to the exhaust pipes pointing inboard. After welding, I drilled one #60 hole through the pipe, in the lower portion of the fitting, so oil would not puddle in the fitting. I operate the pump via a push button switch mounted on the power lever. This tank of a special blend of oil (Baby Oil) lasted about 3 minutes of continuos smoke, if left on. I had 3 squawks with this original configuration: 1) It was about level with the fittings on the exhaust pipes, and would dribble out, loosing the precious oil, and emitting a very slight smoke all the time there was any oil left. 2) Sometimes the pump would cavitate, and wouldn't pick up the fluid. 3) The tank wasn't Big Enough !! The fix for all 3 squawks was to build a larger fiberglass tank (almost a gallon), and mount it down low, and centered on the firewall. Now, I've never used an entire tank of oil in a single flight. On a calm evening, I keep some power in on final approach, and put it into a slip, level off just above the runway, go full power for a high speed flyby (about 70 mph) and into a fairly steep departure, level off and make a turn. The smoke hangs there in 4 straight lines with an arc at the end. Another favorite use, is to hold one brake in the infield, and with 1/4 power, hit the smoke, and do some doughnuts on the ground. The plane disappears behind a smoke screen, while everyone enjoys the aroma of baby oil !! Sometimes people ask me if I can do Skywriting...I say "Yes, I can write the big O in the sky !!" Terry B. got an excellent straight on picture of my plane climbing out of Tick Hill, and from the camera angle, it looks like she's emitting plumes of Rocket Smoke, and going Straight Up !! Hey Mike C. - I hope we can do a few flybys at Brodhead, wing tip to wing tip, Smokin' the whole runway !! YEEEE HAAAAWW !! - now THAT would be a good video clip... Chuck G. p.s. Johnson & Johnson would go broke, if they supplied all the baby oil I need, and there wouldn't be any baby oil left for the baby's !! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Stromberg needles for Continental engines
sites that will let you do that. There is some good information in those that you need to evaluate. Wizzard187(at)aol.com wrote: > Pieters, I just read the neat article on stromberg carbs and the > seats used with auto gas and wonder if anyone has any info for > Marvel Shebler with probably the same neropreme needles. Thanks, > Ken Conrad in nearly spring Iowa ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Plans study update
Well first little issue and hopefully I am just not reading the drawing wrong. I may be looking at the drawings for the short fuselage and not the long. I will definately need the long fuselage. The plans call for a 31 inch space between the rear pit and the front seat. Trouble is I have about 36 inch legs. When bent up enough it forces knees into what will be the panel. That will have to be lengthed. Width was not a problem. I wasn't wide enough yet to have that be that big of a problem. A couple of options. One is cramp the person in the front pit. Not ideal. If you want to take someone for a ride you want them to enjoy it as well. Option get rid of the front seat. Well at least make it a baggage compartment. Most of the time thats all the front pit would be used for, but I would still like the ability to take someone along for the ride should I choose to. Lengthen the fuselage. It looks like going forward would have very little impact. Im about 220 so going back probably wouldn't be the way to go. Especially since the datam is the leading edge of the wing. I saw a rearward CG limit in the plans, but is there a forward CG limit? If so what is it and how much of an extension can be made without a big impact on balance. Thanks all for the help. Its going to be a whale of a ride gettting this done. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Pricing wood
If the list gets bored with this types of questions, my apologies. I just got off the phone with Aircraft Spruce. I got a price of $1070 or so for a wood kit for the Aircamper using Sitka Spruce. I assumed this is probably a worst case senerio as far as price. It includes all the Spruce to build, but no plywood or capstrips. Capstrip would probably be another 150 to 200. It also probably include no extra for a rookie builder. It also did not include shipping to PA. For those that have gone the lumber yard route, just how much could I reasonably be expected to save by going too the lumberyard and hand picking Douglas Fir. Thanks again for the patience with a brand new soon to be builder ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pricing wood
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Mark, Just something to think about. I will probably get a bunch of email from the "Pietenpol -on-a-shoestring" builders, but I'll say it anyway to provoke some thought before you buy your wood. You can build a perfectly good Pietenpol with lumber yard lumber, as long as you are careful in selecting your wood. The design is very robust, and forgiving of less than perfect materials. Having said that, let me make the case for using the best materials you can find (aircraft grade spruce). 1. Your life, and that of your passengers will depend on the quality of the construction you do - including materials and construction technique. The better the quality of the materials, the better the end result. When you are flying in rough air and watching the wings flex with each updraft is no time to be thinking "I wish I hadn't used that spar with the knot in it". Piece of mind is worth something. 2. The performance of these planes is definitely inversely proportional to their weight. As someone on this list is fond of quoting, "Simplicate and add Lightness". Douglas Fir is considerably heavier than Sitka Spruce. It is also stronger. In theory, you can reduce the size of members made from Fir to reduce some of the weight and still keep the strength comparable. As stated above, a Piet is pretty much over designed in most areas, so you sure don't need it to be any stronger. Heavy is bad, Light is good. However, it would be a real challenge to reduce the size of all the members to keep the weight down to something comparable to the weight of a spruce structure. It would be difficult to change the dimensions and have all the fits and interfaces come out right. Most people don't do it - they just build from fir and accept the heavier weight. How much heavier? Estimates range from 10 to 40 lbs extra. That is enough to be noticeable. My Pietenpol holds 15 gallons of fuel, or about 90 lbs worth. It definitely flies better half full of fuel than it does with full fuel, so I know that 45 lbs of weight makes a very noticeable difference in performance. 3. The cost of wood is a very small component of the total cost of the project. I didn't try to scrimp on my Piet and have a total of about $15,000 in it. That was spaced out fairly evenly over the 8 years it took me to build it (I like to tell people that it cost me the same amount a 2-pack a day smoker would have spent on cigarettes in the same time period). Unfortunately, due to the cost of shipping such long pieces, it is best if you can order all the wood (at least all the big pieces like spars and longerons and 4 x 8 plywood sheets) at once to avoid paying even more for shipping. So even though you might spend a total of $1500 on wood using aircraft grade materials, and that is only 10% of the total cost of the project, it is still a mighty big outlay of cash all at once. I actually had 2 big shipments of wood - one for the wings and one for the fuselage and tail, so I had to pay two large trucking bills, but that made it easier on my finances to have 2 big purchases a year or so apart. Just remember that the pain of payment will be a one time thing. You will feel the extra weight every time you take off. And yes, I know Bernard built his planes with less than aircraft quality materials. Did he do it because he wanted to, or did he just use the best materials he had available? I suspect if he could have used better materials, he would have. Just my two cents worth... Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- If the list gets bored with this types of questions, my apologies. I just got off the phone with Aircraft Spruce. I got a price of $1070 or so for a wood kit for the Air camper using Sitka Spruce. I assumed this is probably a worst case scenario as far as price. It includes all the Spruce to build, but no plywood or capstrips. Capstrip would probably be another 150 to 200. It also probably include no extra for a rookie builder. It also did not include shipping to PA. For those that have gone the lumber yard route, just how much could I reasonably be expected to save by going too the lumberyard and hand picking Douglas Fir. Thanks again for the patience with a brand new soon to be builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Date: Mar 30, 2005
Mark You will need the long fuse if using the Corvair or Cont. engine. My main complaint in building the short fuse was that after a couple of hours of flying my lower back gets real sore from the angle of the seat back to the seat bottom. On my new long fuse, I reclined the seat back 1 1/2" at the top and flattened out the seat bottom. Also, I went with the dimensions for the short fuse in building the bridge decks between cockpits and the forward cockpit. The result is that I have an additional 9 1/2" in the rear cockpit. Width has not been an issue for me. I am 5'10" - 200lb. If you are located near MPLS, MN. you can come over and sit in both and see what you think. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update > > Well first little issue and hopefully I am just not reading the drawing > wrong. I may be looking at the drawings for the short fuselage and not > the long. I will definately need the long fuselage. > > The plans call for a 31 inch space between the rear pit and the front > seat. Trouble is I have about 36 inch legs. When bent up enough it > forces knees into what will be the panel. That will have to be > lengthed. Width was not a problem. I wasn't wide enough yet to have > that be that big of a problem. > > A couple of options. One is cramp the person in the front pit. Not > ideal. If you want to take someone for a ride you want them to enjoy it > as well. > > Option get rid of the front seat. Well at least make it a baggage > compartment. Most of the time thats all the front pit would be used > for, but I would still like the ability to take someone along for the > ride should I choose to. > > Lengthen the fuselage. It looks like going forward would have very > little impact. Im about 220 so going back probably wouldn't be the way > to go. Especially since the datam is the leading edge of the wing. I > saw a rearward CG limit in the plans, but is there a forward CG limit? > If so what is it and how much of an extension can be made without a big > impact on balance. > > Thanks all for the help. Its going to be a whale of a ride gettting > this done. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Date: Mar 30, 2005
Mark, The nifty thing about the Piete's designs is the options available to you. Make the plane to fit you right from the gitgo, wide enough and long enough fuselage, the wings determine the CG envelope not the fuselage. After you've determined what engine you want to use, and placement of the cabanes this plane can be designed to easily carry 300 lbs in the backseat and 200 in the front (N-1033B's CG window). But first things first, it's gotta be sized so you can get in it, make it comfy from the start. As for wood purchases, I think some of the other guys are right, if you read, understand and select your wood, this plane could be built from the stocks at any good lumberyard or HomeDepot. Get FAA CAM-18, or some of the EAA publications for good shortcourse on diff wood's pros and cons. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B "Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update > > Well first little issue and hopefully I am just not reading the drawing > wrong. I may be looking at the drawings for the short fuselage and not > the long. I will definately need the long fuselage. > > The plans call for a 31 inch space between the rear pit and the front > seat. Trouble is I have about 36 inch legs. When bent up enough it > forces knees into what will be the panel. That will have to be > lengthed. Width was not a problem. I wasn't wide enough yet to have > that be that big of a problem. > > A couple of options. One is cramp the person in the front pit. Not > ideal. If you want to take someone for a ride you want them to enjoy it > as well. > > Option get rid of the front seat. Well at least make it a baggage > compartment. Most of the time thats all the front pit would be used > for, but I would still like the ability to take someone along for the > ride should I choose to. > > Lengthen the fuselage. It looks like going forward would have very > little impact. Im about 220 so going back probably wouldn't be the way > to go. Especially since the datam is the leading edge of the wing. I > saw a rearward CG limit in the plans, but is there a forward CG limit? > If so what is it and how much of an extension can be made without a big > impact on balance. > > Thanks all for the help. Its going to be a whale of a ride gettting > this done. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Dick Navratil wrote: > >Mark >You will need the long fuse if using the Corvair or Cont. engine. My main >complaint in building the short fuse was that after a couple of hours of >flying my lower back gets real sore from the angle of the seat back to the >seat bottom. On my new long fuse, I reclined the seat back 1 1/2" at the >top and flattened out the seat bottom. Also, I went with the dimensions for >the short fuse in building the bridge decks between cockpits and the forward >cockpit. The result is that I have an additional 9 1/2" in the rear >cockpit. Width has not been an issue for me. I am 5'10" - 200lb. If you >are located near MPLS, MN. you can come over and sit in both and see what >you think. >Dick N. > > > If I am ever that way, I will let you know and I appreciate the offer. I thought of reclining the seat back but in my case that would be no help. I have a 34 inch inseam and legs straight out at something semi comfortable was about 36 inch on a tape measure. It is an idea to make the seat more comfortable for longer flights though. If its 31 inches in the short Piet, then the long Piet might solve the problem without any mods, which I am hoping to avoid. On an aside just how many of you built a cockpit mockup to see how things went before you start work on the Real McCoy. $1 to the old tv show and if you are old enough to remember having watched it, we have something in common lol. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: chris gomez <gomerair(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Stromberg Carb Model NA33A1
I have a friend who is looking for a Stromberg Carb Model NA33A1 for his Piet project. Does anyone have any suggestions where to find one? Thanks, Chris __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Jack a lot of good and sound advise is in here. Why did Bernie build like he did? Who knows but from some converstations with Don a few days ago, I think I have a hunch. If I had to guess Id bet he built with the best materials he could get and AFFORD at the time he built the airplane. Yes he used some things that would make an FAA inspector cringe. They worked just fine. Yet the inspector isn't necessarily wrong. Keeping it light is most definately a goal. Keeping it simple for me is a must. Keeping it safe goes without saying, and I like your analog of a two pack a day smoker. Yet I am not going to have 8 years over which to spread the costs. (At least I hope I don't but I will tell you that when I am done) and keeping the cost down is just as vital to my being able to complete the project at a reasonable time as saving a few pounds. In my case maybe more so. You are right in that wood is not going to be the biggest expense in the project. The big ones I project are going to be engine prop plywood and then maybe fabric. Then again I will find out when it hits I have a feeling. If I can save a few bucks now, that might be the difference in a better engine and prop choice being available to me later. Only time will tell there. I do appreciate your input and respect your words of wisdom. Phillips, Jack wrote: > >Mark, > >Just something to think about. I will probably get a bunch of email >from the "Pietenpol -on-a-shoestring" builders, but I'll say it anyway >to provoke some thought before you buy your wood. > >You can build a perfectly good Pietenpol with lumber yard lumber, as >long as you are careful in selecting your wood. The design is very >robust, and forgiving of less than perfect materials. Having said that, >let me make the case for using the best materials you can find (aircraft >grade spruce). > >1. Your life, and that of your passengers will depend on the quality of >the construction you do - including materials and construction >technique. The better the quality of the materials, the better the end >result. When you are flying in rough air and watching the wings flex >with each updraft is no time to be thinking "I wish I hadn't used that >spar with the knot in it". Piece of mind is worth something. > >2. The performance of these planes is definitely inversely proportional >to their weight. As someone on this list is fond of quoting, >"Simplicate and add Lightness". Douglas Fir is considerably heavier >than Sitka Spruce. It is also stronger. In theory, you can reduce the >size of members made from Fir to reduce some of the weight and still >keep the strength comparable. As stated above, a Piet is pretty much >over designed in most areas, so you sure don't need it to be any >stronger. Heavy is bad, Light is good. However, it would be a real >challenge to reduce the size of all the members to keep the weight down >to something comparable to the weight of a spruce structure. It would >be difficult to change the dimensions and have all the fits and >interfaces come out right. Most people don't do it - they just build >from fir and accept the heavier weight. How much heavier? Estimates >range from 10 to 40 lbs extra. That is enough to be noticeable. My >Pietenpol holds 15 gallons of fuel, or about 90 lbs worth. It >definitely flies better half full of fuel than it does with full fuel, >so I know that 45 lbs of weight makes a very noticeable difference in >performance. > >3. The cost of wood is a very small component of the total cost of the >project. I didn't try to scrimp on my Piet and have a total of about >$15,000 in it. That was spaced out fairly evenly over the 8 years it >took me to build it (I like to tell people that it cost me the same >amount a 2-pack a day smoker would have spent on cigarettes in the same >time period). Unfortunately, due to the cost of shipping such long >pieces, it is best if you can order all the wood (at least all the big >pieces like spars and longerons and 4 x 8 plywood sheets) at once to >avoid paying even more for shipping. So even though you might spend a >total of $1500 on wood using aircraft grade materials, and that is only >10% of the total cost of the project, it is still a mighty big outlay of >cash all at once. I actually had 2 big shipments of wood - one for the >wings and one for the fuselage and tail, so I had to pay two large >trucking bills, but that made it easier on my finances to have 2 big >purchases a year or so apart. > >Just remember that the pain of payment will be a one time thing. You >will feel the extra weight every time you take off. And yes, I know >Bernard built his planes with less than aircraft quality materials. Did >he do it because he wanted to, or did he just use the best materials he >had available? I suspect if he could have used better materials, he >would have. > >Just my two cents worth... > >Jack Phillips > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >If the list gets bored with this types of questions, my apologies. I >just got off the phone with Aircraft Spruce. I got a price of $1070 or >so for a wood kit for the Air camper using Sitka Spruce. I assumed this > >is probably a worst case scenario as far as price. It includes all the >Spruce to build, but no plywood or capstrips. Capstrip would probably >be another 150 to 200. It also probably include no extra for a rookie >builder. It also did not include shipping to PA. > >For those that have gone the lumber yard route, just how much could I >reasonably be expected to save by going too the lumberyard and hand >picking Douglas Fir. Thanks again for the patience with a brand new soon > >to be builder > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
<424AF361.3030206(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Date: Mar 30, 2005
Mark Legs straight out seems comfortable for a short time but knees will ache after a while. Another thing I did was to modify the bulkhead which becomes the front seat back along with the center braces to make much larger foot holes. That helped me alot also. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update > > > Dick Navratil wrote: > >> >> >>Mark >>You will need the long fuse if using the Corvair or Cont. engine. My main >>complaint in building the short fuse was that after a couple of hours of >>flying my lower back gets real sore from the angle of the seat back to the >>seat bottom. On my new long fuse, I reclined the seat back 1 1/2" at the >>top and flattened out the seat bottom. Also, I went with the dimensions >>for >>the short fuse in building the bridge decks between cockpits and the >>forward >>cockpit. The result is that I have an additional 9 1/2" in the rear >>cockpit. Width has not been an issue for me. I am 5'10" - 200lb. If you >>are located near MPLS, MN. you can come over and sit in both and see what >>you think. >>Dick N. >> >> > If I am ever that way, I will let you know and I appreciate the offer. I > thought of reclining the seat back but in my case that would be no help. > I have a 34 inch inseam and legs straight out at something semi > comfortable was about 36 inch on a tape measure. It is an idea to make > the seat more comfortable for longer flights though. > > If its 31 inches in the short Piet, then the long Piet might solve the > problem without any mods, which I am hoping to avoid. > > On an aside just how many of you built a cockpit mockup to see how things > went before you start work on the Real McCoy. $1 to the old tv show and if > you are old enough to remember having watched it, we have something in > common lol. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Stromberg Carb Model NA33A1
Date: Mar 30, 2005
There are usually a few in the Parts Swap tent at Sun N Fun. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris gomez" <gomerair(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg Carb Model NA33A1 > > I have a friend who is looking for a Stromberg Carb > Model NA33A1 for his Piet project. Does anyone have > any suggestions where to find one? > Thanks, > Chris > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Date: Mar 30, 2005
Just a bit of an add on to Jack's great post. There are many non structural parts that can use cedar to save weight also. A couple of examples-- stringers on the turtle deck, long stringer on fuse sides. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > Mark, > > Just something to think about. I will probably get a bunch of email > from the "Pietenpol -on-a-shoestring" builders, but I'll say it anyway > to provoke some thought before you buy your wood. > > You can build a perfectly good Pietenpol with lumber yard lumber, as > long as you are careful in selecting your wood. The design is very > robust, and forgiving of less than perfect materials. Having said that, > let me make the case for using the best materials you can find (aircraft > grade spruce). > > 1. Your life, and that of your passengers will depend on the quality of > the construction you do - including materials and construction > technique. The better the quality of the materials, the better the end > result. When you are flying in rough air and watching the wings flex > with each updraft is no time to be thinking "I wish I hadn't used that > spar with the knot in it". Piece of mind is worth something. > > 2. The performance of these planes is definitely inversely proportional > to their weight. As someone on this list is fond of quoting, > "Simplicate and add Lightness". Douglas Fir is considerably heavier > than Sitka Spruce. It is also stronger. In theory, you can reduce the > size of members made from Fir to reduce some of the weight and still > keep the strength comparable. As stated above, a Piet is pretty much > over designed in most areas, so you sure don't need it to be any > stronger. Heavy is bad, Light is good. However, it would be a real > challenge to reduce the size of all the members to keep the weight down > to something comparable to the weight of a spruce structure. It would > be difficult to change the dimensions and have all the fits and > interfaces come out right. Most people don't do it - they just build > from fir and accept the heavier weight. How much heavier? Estimates > range from 10 to 40 lbs extra. That is enough to be noticeable. My > Pietenpol holds 15 gallons of fuel, or about 90 lbs worth. It > definitely flies better half full of fuel than it does with full fuel, > so I know that 45 lbs of weight makes a very noticeable difference in > performance. > > 3. The cost of wood is a very small component of the total cost of the > project. I didn't try to scrimp on my Piet and have a total of about > $15,000 in it. That was spaced out fairly evenly over the 8 years it > took me to build it (I like to tell people that it cost me the same > amount a 2-pack a day smoker would have spent on cigarettes in the same > time period). Unfortunately, due to the cost of shipping such long > pieces, it is best if you can order all the wood (at least all the big > pieces like spars and longerons and 4 x 8 plywood sheets) at once to > avoid paying even more for shipping. So even though you might spend a > total of $1500 on wood using aircraft grade materials, and that is only > 10% of the total cost of the project, it is still a mighty big outlay of > cash all at once. I actually had 2 big shipments of wood - one for the > wings and one for the fuselage and tail, so I had to pay two large > trucking bills, but that made it easier on my finances to have 2 big > purchases a year or so apart. > > Just remember that the pain of payment will be a one time thing. You > will feel the extra weight every time you take off. And yes, I know > Bernard built his planes with less than aircraft quality materials. Did > he do it because he wanted to, or did he just use the best materials he > had available? I suspect if he could have used better materials, he > would have. > > Just my two cents worth... > > Jack Phillips > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > If the list gets bored with this types of questions, my apologies. I > just got off the phone with Aircraft Spruce. I got a price of $1070 or > so for a wood kit for the Air camper using Sitka Spruce. I assumed this > > is probably a worst case scenario as far as price. It includes all the > Spruce to build, but no plywood or capstrips. Capstrip would probably > be another 150 to 200. It also probably include no extra for a rookie > builder. It also did not include shipping to PA. > > For those that have gone the lumber yard route, just how much could I > reasonably be expected to save by going too the lumberyard and hand > picking Douglas Fir. Thanks again for the patience with a brand new soon > > to be builder > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Plans study update
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I agree with Dick about both comments - it's not very comfortable to sit for a long period with your legs straight out (ever make a long cross country in a Luscombe?). I also had to enlarge my leg holes in the front seat bulkhead (I built the long fuselage version. I am 6'2" and 200 lbs.). I enlarged them while I was building, but once I had it at the airport and started doing taxi tests, I found that I came away with scrapes on my shins from pushing my shins against the panel while braking, so i took a Dremel tool to the plywood and enlarged the holes further. I added a sloping seatback cushion to make the rear seatback at a more comfortable angle, and added a seat bottom cushion. My butt's too old to sit comfortably for very long on bare plywood. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update Mark Legs straight out seems comfortable for a short time but knees will ache after a while. Another thing I did was to modify the bulkhead which becomes the front seat back along with the center braces to make much larger foot holes. That helped me alot also. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
<424AF361.3030206(at)dp.net> <000e01c5355c$d7a58720$0700a8c0@DICKLAPTOP> I actually thought of that as a possibility, but wondered if anyone else had ever done that. You are also right that having to sit with your legs straight wouldn't be comfortable for long flights, but being able to stretch them out that far is (or at least it would seem so for me.) Piets are not really cross country airplanes per sey, but my one day desire/dream/Im gonna do is to take a few weeks or maybe a few months and see just how many different out of the way places I can find in a Piet. Grass strips, fields, airports in the middle of nowhere, and my experience is that just about always in the middle of nowhere there is something that is both interesting and unique. That applies to both locations and people. I will not get there very fast, but who cares. The journey is half the adventure. Dick Navratil wrote: > > > Mark > Legs straight out seems comfortable for a short time but knees will > ache after a while. Another thing I did was to modify the bulkhead > which becomes the front seat back along with the center braces to make > much larger foot holes. That helped me alot also. > Dick N. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:43 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update > > >> >> >> >> >> Dick Navratil wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> You will need the long fuse if using the Corvair or Cont. engine. >>> My main >>> complaint in building the short fuse was that after a couple of >>> hours of >>> flying my lower back gets real sore from the angle of the seat back >>> to the >>> seat bottom. On my new long fuse, I reclined the seat back 1 1/2" >>> at the >>> top and flattened out the seat bottom. Also, I went with the >>> dimensions for >>> the short fuse in building the bridge decks between cockpits and the >>> forward >>> cockpit. The result is that I have an additional 9 1/2" in the rear >>> cockpit. Width has not been an issue for me. I am 5'10" - 200lb. >>> If you >>> are located near MPLS, MN. you can come over and sit in both and see >>> what >>> you think. >>> Dick N. >>> >>> >> If I am ever that way, I will let you know and I appreciate the >> offer. I thought of reclining the seat back but in my case that >> would be no help. I have a 34 inch inseam and legs straight out at >> something semi comfortable was about 36 inch on a tape measure. It >> is an idea to make the seat more comfortable for longer flights though. >> >> If its 31 inches in the short Piet, then the long Piet might solve >> the problem without any mods, which I am hoping to avoid. >> >> On an aside just how many of you built a cockpit mockup to see how >> things went before you start work on the Real McCoy. $1 to the old tv >> show and if you are old enough to remember having watched it, we have >> something in common lol. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Jack did you make the cushions removable or did you add padding and upholster the seats. I was too old to sit on bare plywood when I was a kid. My folks took me to Baptist churches that were noted to have pastors that could talk longer than the fuel supply of a Piet could last. I couldn't take comfortably no padding on a church pew then, and luckily neither could anyone else. When they got padded I was just like my dad, I went to sleep. LOL Phillips, Jack wrote: > >I agree with Dick about both comments - it's not very comfortable to sit >for a long period with your legs straight out (ever make a long cross >country in a Luscombe?). I also had to enlarge my leg holes in the >front seat bulkhead (I built the long fuselage version. I am 6'2" and >200 lbs.). I enlarged them while I was building, but once I had it at >the airport and started doing taxi tests, I found that I came away with >scrapes on my shins from pushing my shins against the panel while >braking, so i took a Dremel tool to the plywood and enlarged the holes >further. > >I added a sloping seatback cushion to make the rear seatback at a more >comfortable angle, and added a seat bottom cushion. My butt's too old >to sit comfortably for very long on bare plywood. > >Jack Phillips > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick >Navratil >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 2:16 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update > > > >Mark >Legs straight out seems comfortable for a short time but knees will ache > >after a while. Another thing I did was to modify the bulkhead which >becomes >the front seat back along with the center braces to make much larger >foot >holes. That helped me alot also. >Dick N. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Stacy Clark
(at)aol.com><424AC18C.8030000(at)dp.net><002c01 c53549$3a5e9910$0700a8c0@DICKLAPT OP> Hey Guys-- what ever happened to Stacy with the 'something Belle' he was going to build ? Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
<424AF361.3030206(at)dp.net> <000e01c5355c$d7a58720$0700a8c0@DICKLAPTOP> <424B1A9A.8030801(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Date: Mar 30, 2005
Making the leg holes larger is easy depending on which set of plans you are working with. If your plans show a large space between the diagonal bracing, change that and make them meet on the floor cross member. If you do that, your leg holes can be almost 7 in. wide and much higher. Also, there might be a few on the list here who would be shocked to hear that a Piet is not a cross country airplane. Bill Rewey seems to show up and Broadhead, OSH, and Sun n Fun. Ted B. took his from Naples, Fl. to Broadhead and back. John D. Took his to Broadhead from Colorado. I remember hearing something about Chuck G. doing some kind of trip last year. Even Corky has talked about installing drop wing tanks and harassing the Cubans. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update > > I actually thought of that as a possibility, but wondered if anyone else > had ever done that. You are also right that having to sit with your legs > straight wouldn't be comfortable for long flights, but being able to > stretch them out that far is (or at least it would seem so for me.) > Piets are not really cross country airplanes per sey, but my one day > desire/dream/Im gonna do is to take a few weeks or maybe a few months and > see just how many different out of the way places I can find in a Piet. > Grass strips, fields, airports in the middle of nowhere, and my experience > is that just about always in the middle of nowhere there is something that > is both interesting and unique. That applies to both locations and > people. I will not get there very fast, but who cares. The journey is > half the adventure. > > Dick Navratil wrote: > >> >> >> Mark >> Legs straight out seems comfortable for a short time but knees will ache >> after a while. Another thing I did was to modify the bulkhead which >> becomes the front seat back along with the center braces to make much >> larger foot holes. That helped me alot also. >> Dick N. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:43 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dick Navratil wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> You will need the long fuse if using the Corvair or Cont. engine. My >>>> main >>>> complaint in building the short fuse was that after a couple of hours >>>> of >>>> flying my lower back gets real sore from the angle of the seat back to >>>> the >>>> seat bottom. On my new long fuse, I reclined the seat back 1 1/2" at >>>> the >>>> top and flattened out the seat bottom. Also, I went with the >>>> dimensions for >>>> the short fuse in building the bridge decks between cockpits and the >>>> forward >>>> cockpit. The result is that I have an additional 9 1/2" in the rear >>>> cockpit. Width has not been an issue for me. I am 5'10" - 200lb. If >>>> you >>>> are located near MPLS, MN. you can come over and sit in both and see >>>> what >>>> you think. >>>> Dick N. >>>> >>>> >>> If I am ever that way, I will let you know and I appreciate the offer. >>> I thought of reclining the seat back but in my case that would be no >>> help. I have a 34 inch inseam and legs straight out at something semi >>> comfortable was about 36 inch on a tape measure. It is an idea to make >>> the seat more comfortable for longer flights though. >>> >>> If its 31 inches in the short Piet, then the long Piet might solve the >>> problem without any mods, which I am hoping to avoid. >>> >>> On an aside just how many of you built a cockpit mockup to see how >>> things went before you start work on the Real McCoy. $1 to the old tv >>> show and if you are old enough to remember having watched it, we have >>> something in common lol. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
<424AF361.3030206(at)dp.net> <000e01c5355c$d7a58720$0700a8c0@DICKLAPTOP> <424B1A9A.8030801(at)dp.net> <002801c53594$735a0b00$0700a8c0@DICKLAPTOP> Dick Navratil wrote: > > > Making the leg holes larger is easy depending on which set of plans > you are working with. If your plans show a large space between the > diagonal bracing, change that and make them meet on the floor cross > member. If you do that, your leg holes can be almost 7 in. wide and > much higher. > Also, there might be a few on the list here who would be shocked to > hear that a Piet is not a cross country airplane. Bill Rewey seems to > show up and Broadhead, OSH, and Sun n Fun. Ted B. took his from > Naples, Fl. to Broadhead and back. John D. Took his to Broadhead from > Colorado. I remember hearing something about Chuck G. doing some kind > of trip last year. Even Corky has talked about installing drop wing > tanks and harassing the Cubans. > Dick > Oh it gets there. You just can't care when or how long it takes you. I think of a practical cross country airplane as one that is IFR with a speed of at least 140 and preferrably something with some sort of weather avoidance and ideally known ice. I once took a Cherokee 140 from Battle Creek Mi to FL and back twice in 10 days. That really wasn't practical either, and not nearly as much fun as I would expect a Piet trip like that to be. I used to get a laugh back when I was teaching with students with my 150 windy day stories. Getting passed by traffic on the ground was never really fun. Getting passed by a school bus used to be embarassing. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Mark, many have given you good advice on the use of wood. It would be nice if we all could afford the "top of the line" aircraft grade lumber, but had I been forced to use type of wood, I would still be dreaming of building an airplane. I am building a Pietenpol modified to be a 75% Curtiss Jenny. So, I have much more wood than those just building the Piet. I found reasonably good spruce (stacked with the Douglas fir) at our local lumber yard. I had a friend of mine (who is an experienced aircraft builder) show me how to select the right pieces of lumber. I bought different lengths of 2" X 6" boards and cut the right sizes on a table saw. You have to discard a lot of wood to get good quality building material, but I still only spent around $60.00 for all the lumber I needed to build the fuselage and wings. I bought large pieces of white ash off ebay, for very little, for the cross supports and the engine mount (for the model A). I used selected baltic birch for the large gussetts and floor. I have 1/8" mahagony for the side panels. I bought Midwest brand aircraft grade 1/16" plywood for the rib gussetts at the local hobby store. I know of several home built aircraft flying with materials of this type and they have never had a structural failure. Your building technique is very important as is your ability to judge the quality of materials you select. Get someone who in experienced (ie. EAA tech advisor) to help you at first, soon you will become more comfortable with your own selections. Do a lot of testing of your materials and then you will know what you are putting in your machine. Of course, you can never go wrong in buying the "top of the line" materials if you have the means, but it is not necessary. Develope good building techniques and turn out quality parts for your plane and your will have a safe airplane. I don't wish to upset anyone, I am just stating facts that I have learned over 32 years of aviation experience. You won't catch me putting a stove bolt in an airplane, nor will I use any other off the shelf item if it hasn't been proven to be safe. I am going to machine my own turnbuckles (I have to have around 100 or so) and some other expensive items that can be made. So hope this helps, at least gives you something to think about. Doc --- Mark Blackwell wrote: > > > > > For those that have gone the lumber yard route, just > how much could I > reasonably be expected to save by going too the > lumberyard and hand > picking Douglas Fir. > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Plans study update
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
The cushions are removable. I used Temperfoampadding, laminating medium and soft layers to make a cushion 2" thick that compresses down to less than 1/2" when you sit on it. The cushions are covered with leather (bought a whole cowhide from B&B Aircraft at OSH for $125 - used it for the seats and the cockpit coaming padding). The cushions are held in place with velcro on the plywood. I can send you pictures if you'd like (out of deference to the rest of the forum I won't clog up cyberspace with my pictures) Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- Jack did you make the cushions removable or did you add padding and upholster the seats. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
I would highly recommend building a cockpit mockup. Not just to determine cockpit width but seat angle, control placement, etc. Plus its a good dry run at cutting and drilling a good portion of the fuselage wood pieces, has saved me from wasting a lot of good spruce. Rick Holland > > Well first little issue and hopefully I am just not reading the drawing > wrong. I may be looking at the drawings for the short fuselage and not > the long. I will definately need the long fuselage. > > The plans call for a 31 inch space between the rear pit and the front > seat. Trouble is I have about 36 inch legs. When bent up enough it > forces knees into what will be the panel. That will have to be > lengthed. Width was not a problem. I wasn't wide enough yet to have > that be that big of a problem. > > A couple of options. One is cramp the person in the front pit. Not > ideal. If you want to take someone for a ride you want them to enjoy it > as well. > > Option get rid of the front seat. Well at least make it a baggage > compartment. Most of the time thats all the front pit would be used > for, but I would still like the ability to take someone along for the > ride should I choose to. > > Lengthen the fuselage. It looks like going forward would have very > little impact. Im about 220 so going back probably wouldn't be the way > to go. Especially since the datam is the leading edge of the wing. I > saw a rearward CG limit in the plans, but is there a forward CG limit? > If so what is it and how much of an extension can be made without a big > impact on balance. > > Thanks all for the help. Its going to be a whale of a ride gettting > this done. > > > -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started to calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good margin. It seems like the whole plane is held together by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and has all the equiptment. He is going to show me how to do the work and I am going to buy the brass bar stock and 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just another little mountain to climb on my way to my dream airplane.... --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > Wow Doc, a hundred turnbuckles, did you see the real > Jenny at Oshkosh > last year? The guy told me there was 217 turnbuckles > on that one. Lets > see, at the current AS price of around $21 each that > comes to $4557!! > I can see why you are building your own. > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Plans study update
Rick, I agree with the mockup. Not all people come in "one size fits all" sizes. Before I placed my seats/seatbacks, controls etc., I clamped everything in place to check for correct position to fit my body. By moving a few things around and changing a little here and there, I have a cockpit that fits me well. I did the same for the front cockpit. It really isn't hard to do, it just takes a little extra work. Doc --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > I would highly recommend building a cockpit mockup. > > > > > > > > -- > Rick Holland > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Plans study update
Hi Jack, where do you find the Temperfoam padding? That would make great seat cushions. Thanks. Doc --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > Jack" > > The cushions are removable. I used > Temperfoampadding, > > Jack Phillips > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Mark Blackwell <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Thanks to all for all the good advise. Nice to be in a mail list where there can be two valid points of view, but no one calls anyone names and the discussion is polite and based on facts. I've been in aviation for a long time, but as a pilot and flight instructor. I have more maintenence background that most due to the fact that I have had more stuff break with me than most. I can honestly say that there is only one instrument on an IFR airplane that has never failed with me (you can guess what it is if you like) and I just remembered what happened so when it happened again Id know what to tell the poor guy that had to both fix it and pay the bill for fixing it. The will help to an extent, but I know full well I am no designer. I also know that I am learning a totally new skill set. I have no desire to be a test pilot. I want to use proven techiques, and be smart with building. I've been to a couple of funerals of those that were not, and honestly losing an average of 1 person per year that I have known in an airplane accident makes you very careful. Galen Hutcheson wrote: > >Mark, many have given you good advice on the use of >wood. It would be nice if we all could afford the >"top of the line" aircraft grade lumber, but had I >been forced to use type of wood, I would still be >dreaming of building an airplane. I am building a >Pietenpol modified to be a 75% Curtiss Jenny. So, I >have much more wood than those just building the Piet. > I found reasonably good spruce (stacked with the >Douglas fir) at our local lumber yard. I had a friend >of mine (who is an experienced aircraft builder) show >me how to select the right pieces of lumber. I bought >different lengths of 2" X 6" boards and cut the right >sizes on a table saw. You have to discard a lot of >wood to get good quality building material, but I >still only spent around $60.00 for all the lumber I >needed to build the fuselage and wings. I bought >large pieces of white ash off ebay, for very little, >for the cross supports and the engine mount (for the >model A). I used selected baltic birch for the large >gussetts and floor. I have 1/8" mahagony for the side >panels. I bought Midwest brand aircraft grade 1/16" >plywood for the rib gussetts at the local hobby store. > I know of several home built aircraft flying with >materials of this type and they have never had a >structural failure. Your building technique is very >important as is your ability to judge the quality of >materials you select. Get someone who in experienced >(ie. EAA tech advisor) to help you at first, soon you >will become more comfortable with your own selections. > Do a lot of testing of your materials and then you >will know what you are putting in your machine. Of >course, you can never go wrong in buying the "top of >the line" materials if you have the means, but it is >not necessary. Develope good building techniques and >turn out quality parts for your plane and your will >have a safe airplane. I don't wish to upset anyone, I >am just stating facts that I have learned over 32 >years of aviation experience. You won't catch me >putting a stove bolt in an airplane, nor will I use >any other off the shelf item if it hasn't been proven >to be safe. I am going to machine my own turnbuckles >(I have to have around 100 or so) and some other >expensive items that can be made. So hope this helps, >at least gives you something to think about. > >Doc > > >--- Mark Blackwell wrote: > > > >> >> >> >> >>For those that have gone the lumber yard route, just >>how much could I >>reasonably be expected to save by going too the >>lumberyard and hand >>picking Douglas Fir. >> >> >> >> >>browse >>Subscriptions page, >>FAQ, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pricing wood
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
A normal Pietenpol has at least 33 turnbuckles (37 if you build the straight axle gear) and more if you build the three piece wing. At about $15 each for new parts, this amounts to around $500. Doc, you ought to go into production selling low cost turnbuckles to the Pietenpol community. A real Jenny would have a ridiculous number of turnbuckles, since all the bays in the fuselage are held together with bracing wire and turnbuckles. As I recall there are double bracing wires on most of the bays. Here is a photo of the Jenny at the EAA museum in OSH. Just look at all the turnbuckles! Jack Phillips Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started to calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good margin. It seems like the whole plane is held together by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and has all the equiptment. He is going to show me how to do the work and I am going to buy the brass bar stock and 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just another little mountain to climb on my way to my dream airplane.... --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > Wow Doc, a hundred turnbuckles, did you see the real > Jenny at Oshkosh > last year? The guy told me there was 217 turnbuckles > on that one. Lets > see, at the current AS price of around $21 each that > comes to $4557!! > I can see why you are building your own. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Doc's biplane design
m> Hello Doc-- Can I ask what engine you have in mind for your 75% Jenny/Air Camper design ? thanks ! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Date: Mar 31, 2005
I believe the turnbuckles were the largest single category of expense in my Piet. I, too, looked into fabricating the turnbuckles after getting prices from four sources and decided against it. What stopped me was the required level of quality control on so many items. What bothers me are the details like the forked end and the eyelet end. Machining of these parts (which I believe are normally forged) requires good control of radii, in order to achieve the expected load rating. Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started to > calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to > have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > margin. It seems like the whole plane is held together > by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and has > all the equiptment. He is going to show me how to do > the work and I am going to buy the brass bar stock and > 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just another > little mountain to climb on my way to my dream > airplane.... > --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > > > > > Wow Doc, a hundred turnbuckles, did you see the real > > Jenny at Oshkosh > > last year? The guy told me there was 217 turnbuckles > > on that one. Lets > > see, at the current AS price of around $21 each that > > comes to $4557!! > > I can see why you are building your own. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Obviously the designer of the Jenny had little faith in the glues available at that time to hold the fuselage wood pieces together, even with gussets. For good reason I'm sure. > A normal Pietenpol has at least 33 turnbuckles (37 if you build the > straight axle gear) and more if you build the three piece wing. At > about $15 each for new parts, this amounts to around $500. Doc, you > ought to go into production selling low cost turnbuckles to the > Pietenpol community. > > A real Jenny would have a ridiculous number of turnbuckles, since all > the bays in the fuselage are held together with bracing wire and > turnbuckles. As I recall there are double bracing wires on most of the > bays. > > Here is a photo of the Jenny at the EAA museum in OSH. Just look at all > the turnbuckles! > > Jack Phillips -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Date: Mar 31, 2005
something to think about is the fact that true AN/MS turnbuckle eye, fork and pin ends are forged and have rolled threads. Turning the barrels is something easily done by the home machinist but forging and rolling threads on ends isn't. How are you making your ends? I would not suggest cutting the threads. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started to > calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to > have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > margin. It seems like the whole plane is held together > by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and has > all the equiptment. He is going to show me how to do > the work and I am going to buy the brass bar stock and > 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just another > little mountain to climb on my way to my dream > airplane.... > --- Rick Holland wrote: ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Plans study update
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I bought some of it at OSH, and some from Aircraft Spruce. It's very expensive. As I recall, a 16" x 18" x 1" piece is about $25. It makes a very comfortable seat, though. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galen Hutcheson Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans study update Hi Jack, where do you find the Temperfoam padding? That would make great seat cushions. Thanks. Doc --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > Jack" > > The cushions are removable. I used > Temperfoampadding, > > Jack Phillips > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2005
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 03/30/05
In a message dated 3/31/05 4:15:15 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: > > >> Mark, I've completed all the wodwork on my Piet, all with beautiful Douglas Fir, and have compared weights with others during the last three years that it has taken me to bulld. I looked at the spruce at AS&S and didn't like what I found. I really don't know if my Piet will be heavier than anyone elses. My target weight is to beat the 595 pounds total weight that has been reported. But I did use only top gade Basswood plywood everywhere. My ribs, complete, weigh only 5 pounds per side(14 ribs), spars are 10 pounds each, fuse is 71 pounds, tail feathers are 14, so when all is said and done I'll have about 150 pounds of wood. I'm using Go Kart wheels and brakes, which may save a lot of weight over Cub-type gear. But my Corvair moter is almost complete, and I haven't spent much over $1500 for all. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Date: Mar 31, 2005
Subject: Plans study update
Sam's Club sells it for mattress pads. You should be able to get a singe bed pad for about $25. My wife and I got some for the King and it's great! I think I'm gonna plan to use the temperfoam on the piet seat too. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Subject: Piet Seat
In a message dated 3/31/2005 4:17:45 PM Central Standard Time, tmbrant1(at)netzero.net writes: Sam's Club sells it for mattress pads. You should be able to get a singe bed pad for about $25. My wife and I got some for the King and it's great! I think I'm gonna plan to use the temperfoam on the piet seat too. I think Temperfoam would be a good choice for the foam in the seat, and Sam's is probably the place to find it. However, pad design is at least equally important. I originally had just a simple cushion, and would be uncomfortable after an hour or so. I made a new one (but did NOT use Temperfoam - couldn't find an inexpensive source), and used different density foam layers, cupped out the middle so it didn't raise me up very much (maybe 1/2" thick in the center), and extended it over the forward edge of the seat, to give my legs more support. By increasing the surface I sit on, it made an incredible difference in comfort. Sit on your seat, and make note exactly what portion of your behind actually touches. Then, as a comparison, go sit in your Lazy Boy chair, and see how much of your behind actually touches. Forward leg support is very important to comfort. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Plans study update
Thanks for the info Jack. The $25 may be worth a sore butt over the long haul. :) I have spent long 8 to 10 hour days riding a hard seat cushion in the old bipes and would have traded anything I had for something comfortable. That temperfoam is a great idea. Doc --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > Jack" > > I bought some of it at OSH, and some from Aircraft > Spruce. It's very > expensive. As I recall, a 16" x 18" x 1" piece is > about $25. It makes > a very comfortable seat, though. > > Jack Phillips, PE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Piet Seat
Very true Chuck. I think it was Tony Bengelis who discussed seat comfort in his book "Sport Plane Builder." He stressed making the seat comfortable and gave some good examples. Doc --- Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > However, pad > design is at least equally > important. > > Chuck G. > __________________________________ Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it DJ. I have a lot of research to do before I begin making them. I do not plan to pay $21 per buckle regardless. I'm sure the old biplane builders figured out a way to get the problem solved, I just have to discover their secret. One thing true about biplanes that do not hold true for monoplanes. There is so much wing and, in a two bay strutter, you have very little force centered on any one location. The forces are spread out over many fittings, including turnbuckles, and therefore, no single turnbuckle will have to experience a large amount of load. All lift cables (wires) are doubled to add to the strength. I'm not convienced that rolled threads would be necessary in this situation...but I am investigating it. Thanks. Doc Doc --- DJ Vegh wrote: > > > something to think about is the fact that true AN/MS > turnbuckle eye, fork > and pin ends are forged and have rolled threads. > Turning the barrels is > something easily done by the home machinist but > forging and rolling threads > on ends isn't. How are you making your ends? I > would not suggest cutting > the threads. > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:33 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > Hutcheson > > > > > > Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started > to > > calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to > > have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > > margin. It seems like the whole plane is held > together > > by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and > has > > all the equiptment. He is going to show me how to > do > > the work and I am going to buy the brass bar stock > and > > 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just > another > > little mountain to climb on my way to my dream > > airplane.... > > --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Doc's biplane design
Hi Mike, I'm having Ken Perkins build me one of his wonderful Model A specials. He says he can give me 72 hp and, with my calculations, I should have a better weight/horsepower ratio than the Jenny. I will also have a higher lift wing (Pietenpol) with a lighter wing loading than the Jenny. Over-all preformance should be better than the Jenny (which may not be saying much). I'll enclose one pic and a do not archive to give you soom idea of what it is looking like. Doc --- Michael D Cuy wrote: > > > Hello Doc-- Can I ask what engine you have in mind > for your 75% Jenny/Air > Camper > design ? > > thanks ! > > Mike C. > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pricing wood
Jack, I too may use cables and turnbuckles fire-wall forward, but I haven't decided as yet. I will have the curved engine supports along with the Piet engine mount for the model A engine. Decisions, decisions... Doc --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > > > A real Jenny would have a ridiculous number of > turnbuckles, since all > the bays in the fuselage are held together with > bracing wire and > turnbuckles. As I recall there are double bracing > wires on most of the > bays. > > > > Jack Phillips > > Hutcheson > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Pricing wood
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Doc, Check out a Yatch Chandlers for turnbuckles etc. Same quality, very different price. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it DJ. I have a lot of research to do before I begin making them. I do not plan to pay $21 per buckle regardless. I'm sure the old biplane builders figured out a way to get the problem solved, I just have to discover their secret. One thing true about biplanes that do not hold true for monoplanes. There is so much wing and, in a two bay strutter, you have very little force centered on any one location. The forces are spread out over many fittings, including turnbuckles, and therefore, no single turnbuckle will have to experience a large amount of load. All lift cables (wires) are doubled to add to the strength. I'm not convienced that rolled threads would be necessary in this situation...but I am investigating it. Thanks. Doc Doc --- DJ Vegh wrote: > > > something to think about is the fact that true AN/MS > turnbuckle eye, fork > and pin ends are forged and have rolled threads. > Turning the barrels is > something easily done by the home machinist but > forging and rolling threads > on ends isn't. How are you making your ends? I > would not suggest cutting > the threads. > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:33 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > Hutcheson > > > > > > Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started > to > > calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to > > have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > > margin. It seems like the whole plane is held > together > > by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and > has > > all the equiptment. He is going to show me how to > do > > the work and I am going to buy the brass bar stock > and > > 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just > another > > little mountain to climb on my way to my dream > > airplane.... > > --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
How about this type? These are off a Tiger Moth. A number of folks have made their own, just not as fancy. There's more than one Piet with them. A "U" of bent strap, a bolt or eye bolt and a nut. Isn't there someone on the list with these on the tail? http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=IMG_0240.jpg&PhotoID=363 Clif > > > It's going to be a challenge Carl, but I think we can > do it. Thanks. > > Doc ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pricing wood
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Doubling the lift wires does increase the strength (or, more correctly, allows the use of smaller wires and turnbuckles), but also adds a definite safety concern. There have been a number of Fly Baby crashes due to the double flying and landing wires on that design. The problem is, unless both wires are tensioned identically, one will carry a disproportionate share of the load. If there is enough disparity in tension, the loaded wire can fail, which will then transfer all the load to the remaining wire, which will also quickly fail. Part of the preflight inspection should be to "twang" all the wires and make sure that boths wires in a pair are tensioned approximately equally. If it is possible to carry the load with a single larger wire, that is a much safer solution (also makes much less drag, if it is exposed to the airstream). Jack P.S., Doc your picture shows a real beauty under construction. I'm anxious to see it in the air. -----Original Message----- ...One thing true about biplanes that do not hold true for monoplanes. There is so much wing and, in a two bay strutter, you have very little force centered on any one location. The forces are spread out over many fittings, including turnbuckles, and therefore, no single turnbuckle will have to experience a large amount of load. All lift cables (wires) are doubled to add to the strength. Doc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: BernadetteTS <docfont(at)voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles and Jenny rigging
>From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > >Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started to >calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to >have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good >margin. It seems like the whole plane is held together >by turnbuckles! >--- Rick Holland wrote: Hi Rick I was looking for an alternative to turnbuckles on my project. I found a picture of an alternative method where the drift/drag wires go through the spar and are held in place with a nut on the front side of the spar. A fir, not spruce because it is too soft, block takes the compression forces. Not sure how to upload a picture to this list so I put one in my folder on; http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/GrassRootsHomebuilder/ go to the photos link, look for Woodys Pusher folder and click on the thumbnail. It's simple if you look at the picture. Lots cheaper too. About the Jenny. I have two museum folders of factory Jenny drawings. One is "Manual of Rigging Notes, Curtis JN4-D" 14 pages. The other is "Curtiss Aeroplane and Motor Corporation Model JN4H" 21 pages. I think they are museum copies of original Curtiss factory drawings. They show the main structure. Includes dimensions of main components like wing beams (spars). They don't include the hundreds of detail drawings with dimensions of individual parts. If you like, I can stop by the local blue print shop and see how much they want to copy them. Roughly 13" X 18" pages. DocFont ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles and Jenny rigging
Doc Attached a photo of a metal fitting my TA gave me for doing just what you are talking about, crossing and running the drag wires through to the outsides of the spars. These came off of a Luscombe I think he said. Simplest and strongest method I have seen to attach drag wires. Don't think they are usable on a standard Piet since the only place two drag wires meet is also where the strut fittings go. Rick H On Apr 1, 2005 6:57 AM, BernadetteTS wrote: > > >From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > > > >Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I started to > >calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going to > >have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > >margin. It seems like the whole plane is held together > >by turnbuckles! > >--- Rick Holland wrote: > > Hi Rick > > I was looking for an alternative to turnbuckles on my project. I > found a picture of an alternative method where the drift/drag wires > go through the spar and are held in place with a nut on the front > side of the spar. A fir, not spruce because it is too soft, block > takes the compression forces. Not sure how to upload a picture to > this list so I put one in my folder on; > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/GrassRootsHomebuilder/ go > to the photos link, look for Woodys Pusher folder and click on the > thumbnail. It's simple if you look at the picture. Lots cheaper too. > > About the Jenny. I have two museum folders of factory Jenny drawings. > One is "Manual of Rigging Notes, Curtis JN4-D" 14 pages. The other is > "Curtiss Aeroplane and Motor Corporation Model JN4H" 21 pages. I > think they are museum copies of original Curtiss factory drawings. > They show the main structure. Includes dimensions of main components > like wing beams (spars). They don't include the hundreds of detail > drawings with dimensions of individual parts. If you like, I can stop > by the local blue print shop and see how much they want to copy them. > Roughly 13" X 18" pages. > > DocFont > > > -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles and Jenny rigging
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
That is the system the Pitts Special uses for its drag and anti-drag wires in the wing. It is best to use hard, high tensile strength wire with rolled threads, but that will cost more than the turnbuckles you are trying to replace. Cut threads on music wire as Corky suggests would probably be OK, but I would have a competent engineer run the stress analysis on it, and use a large safety factor to counter any stress concentrations you get from the cut threads. The same type of system can be used on the tail bracing wires, using a bent up sheet metal clevis like Piper used on the J-3 Cub. One advantage of that system is that it is lighter (those brass turnbuckles are pretty heavy). Jack Phillips >--- Rick Holland wrote: Hi Rick I was looking for an alternative to turnbuckles on my project. I found a picture of an alternative method where the drift/drag wires go through the spar and are held in place with a nut on the front side of the spar. A fir, not spruce because it is too soft, block takes the compression forces. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Turnbuckles
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Pieters, Rather than spending a lot of time and effort looking for turnbuckle substitutes, or making them, why not just contact B and B Aircraft Supply in Gardner KS? He is a surplus dealer of AN hardware and often has turnbuckles in stock. I bought all of mine there in one batch for about 5 bucks each. (I may have gotten a quantity discount.) His phone # is (913 884-5930. Hope this will help, John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Turnbuckles
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I second that John. Dan Brown at B&B is great to work with. I bought a bunch of turnbuckles and other hardware from him at OSH, as well as a whole cowhide of leather for $125 (compare that to the $400 to $500 most people want for leather). Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Dilatush Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Pieters, Rather than spending a lot of time and effort looking for turnbuckle substitutes, or making them, why not just contact B and B Aircraft Supply in Gardner KS? He is a surplus dealer of AN hardware and often has turnbuckles in stock. I bought all of mine there in one batch for about 5 bucks each. (I may have gotten a quantity discount.) His phone # is (913 884-5930. Hope this will help, John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles
Date: Apr 01, 2005
I agree. B&B has some great buys on turnbuckles. They have a big tent at SNF. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dilatush To: Pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:50 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Pieters, Rather than spending a lot of time and effort looking for turnbuckle substitutes, or making them, why not just contact B and B Aircraft Supply in Gardner KS? He is a surplus dealer of AN hardware and often has turnbuckles in stock. I bought all of mine there in one batch for about 5 bucks each. (I may have gotten a quantity discount.) His phone # is (913 884-5930. Hope this will help, John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Brodhead Jenny
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Does anyone know the name or have contact info for the owner of that beautiful Jenny that was at Brodhead and Oshkosh last year? My wife got a calender quality shot of it at sunrise and we want to send the guy a print. Also, what are Brodhead dates this year? Thanks, Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles
John, thanks for that info. For $5, I would definitely not try to make my own. I will give him a call and see what I can arrange. I am also going to look at an aircraft salvage place not too far from here and see what they have in used turnbuckles. I am not really wanting to make my own turnbuckles, but I could never afford market prices for the large amount of turnbuckles I will have to have. Doc --- John Dilatush wrote: > Pieters, > > Rather than spending a lot of time and effort > looking for turnbuckle substitutes, or making them, > why not just contact B and B Aircraft Supply in > Gardner KS? > > He is a surplus dealer of AN hardware and often has > turnbuckles in stock. I bought all of mine there in > one batch for about 5 bucks each. (I may have > gotten a quantity discount.) > > His phone # is (913 884-5930. > > Hope this will help, > > John __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles and Jenny rigging
Hi DocFont, I sure would like to know the cost of the Jenny drawings. They would be of extreme use to me. Please let me know of the cost and I will try to arrange it. Is there anyway to put them on a CD? Thanks. Doc (H) > > About the Jenny. I have two museum folders of > factory Jenny drawings. > One is "Manual of Rigging Notes, Curtis JN4-D" 14 > pages. The other is > "Curtiss Aeroplane and Motor Corporation Model JN4H" > 21 pages. I > think they are museum copies of original Curtiss > factory drawings. > They show the main structure. Includes dimensions of > main components > like wing beams (spars). They don't include the > hundreds of detail > drawings with dimensions of individual parts. If you > like, I can stop > by the local blue print shop and see how much they > want to copy them. > Roughly 13" X 18" pages. > > DocFont > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pricing wood
Thanks Jack. You are correct about un-equal tension on paired cables. On my pre-flight (and all the bips I've owned had paired wires) I developed a way of testing the wire tension. I would grasp each of the two wires, one with my thumb and the other with my index finger, at about the center point between the two attach points. I would then pull downward with equal pressure on both wires. I could easily tell from this pull and by the pressure exerted on the neurons in my finger tips, if both wires were tensioned about the same (in the begining I tested this practice with a tensiometer just to be sure). I have found un-equal tension doing this and was able to correct a potential problem. It takes some practice, but it does work very well. My understanding is that each of the paired wires are designed to carry the entire load and that the second wire is to give a 100% safety factor. I may be wrong, buy my cables will be designed just that way. Thanks for the comment on my plane. It does mean a lot to get good feed back on something you labor so hard and so long over, especially from men who have gone through the same struggles that I am going through. I appreciate this group and want to thank everyone for their excellent help and advice. Doc --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > Jack" > > > Doubling the lift wires does increase the strength > (or, more correctly, > allows the use of smaller wires and turnbuckles), > but also adds a > definite safety concern. > > Jack > > P.S., Doc your picture shows a real beauty under > construction. I'm > anxious to see it in the air. > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pricing wood
Hi Clif, thanks for that photo. I have a turnbuckle made just that way that a friend of mine made. I am looking at this to apply to the lesser stress areas. I think this buckle makes a neat, as well as a strong application. Doc (H) --- Clif Dawson wrote: > > > How about this type? These are off a Tiger Moth. > A number of folks have made their own, just not > as fancy. There's more than one Piet with them. > A "U" of bent strap, a bolt or eye bolt and a nut. > Isn't there someone on the list with these on the > tail? > > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=IMG_0240.jpg&PhotoID=363 > > Clif > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pricing wood
Thanks Peter, it's great hearing from you again. I have been following your progress on your website and you are doing wonderful. Do you happen to have a website or contact info? I will try the search engine but if you have that info I would appreciate it. Doc (H) --- Peter W Johnson wrote: > Johnson" > > Doc, > > Check out a Yatch Chandlers for turnbuckles etc. > Same quality, very > different price. > > Cheers > > Peter > Wonthaggi, Australia > http://www.cpc-world.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Galen > Hutcheson > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:44 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > Hutcheson > > I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it DJ. > I > have a lot of research to do before I begin making > them. I do not plan to pay $21 per buckle > regardless. > I'm sure the old biplane builders figured out a way > to > get the problem solved, I just have to discover > their > secret. One thing true about biplanes that do not > hold true for monoplanes. There is so much wing > and, > in a two bay strutter, you have very little force > centered on any one location. The forces are spread > out over many fittings, including turnbuckles, and > therefore, no single turnbuckle will have to > experience a large amount of load. All lift cables > (wires) are doubled to add to the strength. I'm not > convienced that rolled threads would be necessary in > this situation...but I am investigating it. Thanks. > > Doc > > Doc > --- DJ Vegh wrote: > > > > > > > something to think about is the fact that true > AN/MS > > turnbuckle eye, fork > > and pin ends are forged and have rolled threads. > > Turning the barrels is > > something easily done by the home machinist but > > forging and rolling threads > > on ends isn't. How are you making your ends? I > > would not suggest cutting > > the threads. > > > > DJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:33 AM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > > > > Hutcheson > > > > > > > > > Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I > started > > to > > > calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going > to > > > have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > > > margin. It seems like the whole plane is held > > together > > > by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and > > has > > > all the equiptment. He is going to show me how > to > > do > > > the work and I am going to buy the brass bar > stock > > and > > > 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just > > another > > > little mountain to climb on my way to my dream > > > airplane.... > > > --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Howdy, fabric heads- One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. My question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a "mercury thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I see no reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, too. I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu>
That's what I've been using. Only problem is reflective surfaces. If an iron is shinny on the bottom is doesn't work too well. Try the non-stick iron and you will be pleased. Stevee -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration Howdy, fabric heads- One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. My question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a "mercury thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I see no reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, too. I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Oscar, As long as the IR scanner is accurate to within +/- 5 deg F or so, I don't see why it could not be used. Using the glass thrmometer to calibrate with the procedure PolyFiber dictates is time consuming and tedious. Perhaps you could calibrate your IR scanner against the glass thermometer for one ro two temp setings and then just use the scanner. I found with my iron that when the iron thermostat shuts off as the iron reaches a set temperature, the temperature of the bottom of the iron continues to climb for several seconds, so take a number of readings until you are certain the iron has stabilized at the new temperature. You will enjoy fabric covering - particularly the shrinking part. It is almost a sexual experience to watch the loose, baggy fabric suddenly pull itself into a tight flying surface. Taping is what takes so long, but it is so much easier with PolyFiber than with Grade A cotton and dope. I find the PolyFiber materials to be expensive, but worth the money. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- Howdy, fabric heads- One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. My question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a "mercury thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I see no reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, too. I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... Oscar Zuniga ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
the problem I see with that is that the infrared temp guns have a hard time indicating the temp of a reflective metal surface like an iron base. They tend to "see" whats reflected and the temp indication is a result of both the iron and whats reflecting. I havent tried my infrared gun on my iron but sounds like an interesting experiment. tell ya what I'll do. I'll fire up the iron and get an accurate temp reading using silicone compound and my mercury thermo then shoot the gun at it and see what the temp diff is. Will report back tomorrow with results. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > Howdy, fabric heads- > > One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the > iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. My > question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a "mercury > thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I see no > reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, too. > > I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Doc's biplane design
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Hi Galen....You might be interested to know that at Brodhead they have drawings of The "Paragon" propeller that was the prop use on the Jenny. I have a 3/4 scale replica of that prop (72") which I believe was made from those drawings. The man that built it used mahogany and intended it for a Model A engine on a Piet, which is exactly what I intend to do with it. (it's a beautiful semi scimitar)...Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doc's biplane design > Hi Mike, > > I'm having Ken Perkins build me one of his wonderful > Model A specials. He says he can give me 72 hp and, > with my calculations, I should have a better > weight/horsepower ratio than the Jenny. I will also > have a higher lift wing (Pietenpol) with a lighter > wing loading than the Jenny. Over-all preformance > should be better than the Jenny (which may not be > saying much). I'll enclose one pic and a do not > archive to give you soom idea of what it is looking > like. > > Doc > --- Michael D Cuy wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Doc-- Can I ask what engine you have in mind > > for your 75% Jenny/Air > > Camper > > design ? > > > > thanks ! > > > > Mike C. > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ ---- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: fabric iron calibration
m> Oscar-- some heat guns are not good with low emissivity surfaces like shiny iron bottoms. (I deal with stuff like that here all the time) Bingelis shows a simple way to calibrate but I just went to a nearby hobby store and did it exactly the way poly tells you too with a Coverite hobby thermometer. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
I use a non-contacting infrared thermometer which I bought for less than $80.00. It includes a visible red LED so you can see where the measurement is being made. At the distance from the work that I use it, the measured spot is about the size of a nickel. Because the temperature of the iron varies greatly over the surface of the sole plate (due to the action of the built-in thermostat), I don't power the iron directly off the 110v outlet. Instead, I power it with a "Variac" variable transformer and monitor the temperature with the IR thermometer. It only takes a little practice to learn where to set it for the desired temperature.....Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > Howdy, fabric heads- > > One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the > iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. My > question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a "mercury > thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I see no > reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, too. > > I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Oscar, I just recovered N-1033B this past winter with Stits. Couple tips: the temp of the iron ain't brain surgery, so don't get too excited, you'll know by feel and sight when you've got it too hot or too cold, after you first get the temp about right with a thermometer. You'll find the fabric is very forgiving and yes it is an orgasmic experience to see the fabric come taut removing the bags and wrinkles like experiencing fine wine, or a cold beer, if not orgasmic. Second- make darn sure you put on enough Poly-brush to seal the fabric. Follow the instructions regarding using a brush and seal the fabric good. The Poly-Spray cannot make up for not having the fabric completely sealed by the Poly-Brush. Second- invest in a low pressure, high volume top loading spray gun. They're only about $80 for one that holds about 1pt in the top gravity fed canister. HPLV guns run on about 15 psi, don't have to siphon the liquid up from the bottom like "screw on type" canisters. I've used and own both, will never go back to the old style syphon type. They clean up real easy and neatly, they put down a nice spray without much overspray. Put the polyspray on with this gun and you'll get another orgasmic experience. The Poly-spray has the al particles already in the formula but you gotta stir it up. I put on N-1033B a nice automotive paint from Dupont, a two part polyurethane-acrylate. There is an additive called "Bulldog" that is a non-migrating plasticizer used by pro painters when they're painting plastic parts on autos like the bumper and some plastic side panels. Just a tad of Bulldog gives the paint the added flex needed to go on fabrics over Stits. The HPLV spry gun made the job a dream. Good luck. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B " But such is the constitution of my mind I cannot avoid forming an opinion", John Adams. The weakness of my character insists I give voice to that opinion-GB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > Howdy, fabric heads- > > One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the > iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. My > question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a "mercury > thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I see no > reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, too. > > I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Speaking of fabric????????????? Anyone know of a source of dacron, ceconite or any other name for the same stuff with a price of under $5.00 yd ? I pd $3.25 5/6/02 but it is now $ 8.00. I wonder if they price this according to the cost of mfg or what they can force the buyers to pay? Corky, poor boying it in Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Doc's biplane design
Hi Carl, that is great! Can a guy get a copy of those drawings from Broadhead? I sure would like a copy. Do you have any pics of your prop? If so, could you email me some? That is exactly the type I prop I am wanting to build. Do you recall who made your prop? Is yours considered a climb or cruise prop, or maybe just in between? Lots of questions, huh. Thanks for any help you can lend me. Doc --- Carl Vought wrote: > > > Hi Galen....You might be interested to know that at > Brodhead they have > drawings of The "Paragon" propeller that was the > prop use on the Jenny. I > have a 3/4 scale replica of that prop (72") which I > believe was made from > those drawings. The man that built it used mahogany > and intended it for a > Model A engine on a Piet, which is exactly what I > intend to do with it. > (it's a beautiful semi scimitar)...Carl Vought > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > Subscriptions page, > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > protection around > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Corky, I used on N-1003B the generic Dacron for homebuilts, Airspruce part no. 09-00300, works just like the expensive stuff. Catalog price is under $3.80/yd, 66" width.. Wouldn't use stuff from fabric retail stores even if cheaper due to the lack of controlled shrink. Under $150 you've got all the fabric you'll need. Another $200 for tapes etc. With Stits process $500 Polybrush and Spray (I'll never use dope again) and about $300 in good auto paint, you're home free at about $1500 including buying the brushes, a good organics air filter mask, small compressor and HVLP spray gun. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B " But such is the constitution of my mind I cannot avoid forming an opinion", John Adams ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration Speaking of fabric????????????? Anyone know of a source of dacron, ceconite or any other name for the same stuff with a price of under $5.00 yd ? I pd $3.25 5/6/02 but it is now $ 8.00. I wonder if they price this according to the cost of mfg or what they can force the buyers to pay? Corky, poor boying it in Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Thanks Gordon, It's 4.25 a yd now but I'm getting 41 yards next week. Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Norman Neff" <guppy04(at)msn.com>
Subject: turnbuckles
Date: Apr 01, 2005
if using stranded cable you can adjust (tighten) brace cables with a twist or two and eliminate turnbuckles alltogether saves weight and money especially on tailfeathers Its done on Roger Manns designs with the same tail surface area and speeds as the pietenpol regards Norman ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Pricing wood
Date: Apr 02, 2005
Doc, I just went to a local ships chandler near Melbourne. Even some Bearings Warehouse's have them. I bought a load of cable shackles. I needed to re-drill the hole for a clevis pin and bend the ends together a bit. Look good and are strong. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galen Hutcheson Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood Thanks Peter, it's great hearing from you again. I have been following your progress on your website and you are doing wonderful. Do you happen to have a website or contact info? I will try the search engine but if you have that info I would appreciate it. Doc (H) --- Peter W Johnson wrote: > Johnson" > > Doc, > > Check out a Yatch Chandlers for turnbuckles etc. > Same quality, very > different price. > > Cheers > > Peter > Wonthaggi, Australia > http://www.cpc-world.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Galen > Hutcheson > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:44 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > Hutcheson > > I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it DJ. > I > have a lot of research to do before I begin making > them. I do not plan to pay $21 per buckle > regardless. > I'm sure the old biplane builders figured out a way > to > get the problem solved, I just have to discover > their > secret. One thing true about biplanes that do not > hold true for monoplanes. There is so much wing > and, > in a two bay strutter, you have very little force > centered on any one location. The forces are spread > out over many fittings, including turnbuckles, and > therefore, no single turnbuckle will have to > experience a large amount of load. All lift cables > (wires) are doubled to add to the strength. I'm not > convienced that rolled threads would be necessary in > this situation...but I am investigating it. Thanks. > > Doc > > Doc > --- DJ Vegh wrote: > > > > > > > something to think about is the fact that true > AN/MS > > turnbuckle eye, fork > > and pin ends are forged and have rolled threads. > > Turning the barrels is > > something easily done by the home machinist but > > forging and rolling threads > > on ends isn't. How are you making your ends? I > > would not suggest cutting > > the threads. > > > > DJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:33 AM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pricing wood > > > > > > Hutcheson > > > > > > > > > Hi Rick, I nearly had heart failure when I > started > > to > > > calculate the number of turnbuckles I was going > to > > > have. Actually it exceeds 100 by a pretty good > > > margin. It seems like the whole plane is held > > together > > > by turnbuckles! My brother is a machineist and > > has > > > all the equiptment. He is going to show me how > to > > do > > > the work and I am going to buy the brass bar > stock > > and > > > 4130 steel rod material and go to work. Just > > another > > > little mountain to climb on my way to my dream > > > airplane.... > > > --- Rick Holland wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: turnbuckles
Interesting point Norman. I wonder if the same is true with hard wire, which is what I am thinking about using on the flying surfaces. Probably not since it is less flexable. Thanks. Doc --- Norman Neff wrote: > if using stranded cable you can adjust (tighten) > brace cables with a twist or two and eliminate > turnbuckles alltogether saves weight and money > especially on tailfeathers Its done on Roger Manns > designs with the same tail surface area and speeds > as the pietenpol > > regards Norman __________________________________ Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Probably from the price of oil...I think the stuff is made from petroleum, not sure though. The Arabs strike again. Doc --- Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote: > Speaking of fabric????????????? > Anyone know of a source of dacron, ceconite or any > other name for the same > stuff with a price of under $5.00 yd ? I pd $3.25 > 5/6/02 but it is now $ 8.00. > I wonder if they price this according to the cost > of mfg or what they can > force the buyers to pay? > Corky, poor boying it in Louisiana > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pricing wood
Peter, I browsed a marine catalog and they do have good turnbuckles, but as I recall, they too were a little pricey. I''ll keep looking though. Thanks for the tip. Doc --- Peter W Johnson wrote: > Johnson" > > Doc, > > I just went to a local ships chandler near > Melbourne. Even some Bearings > Warehouse's have them. > > I bought a load of cable shackles. I needed to > re-drill the hole for a > clevis pin and bend the ends together a bit. Look > good and are strong. > > Cheers > > Peter > Wonthaggi, Australia > http://www.cpc-world.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > Subscriptions page, > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PIETLARS29(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 01, 2005
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Hi: There is a simple, low tech way to calibrate/check the iron temperature for use on fabric: Buy a simple bi-metal gizmo that you just place on the inverted iron and in about 20 seconds it reaches the temp and is indicated by a pointer / scale. Cost about $7 from the ASS bunch. Worked fine for me using the Poly system Lou Larsen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2005
From: Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com>
Subject: Re: Brodhead Jenny
Douwe Blumberg wrote: > Does anyone know the name or have contact info for the owner of that > beautiful Jenny that was at Brodhead and Oshkosh last year? > > My wife got a calender quality shot of it at sunrise and we want to > send the guy a print. > > Also, what are Brodhead dates this year? > > Thanks, > Douwe Douwe, That was Frank Schelling based at Schellville in Sonoma. I'll try to find his email address and forward your email. Darrel Jones Sonoma, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Brodhead Jenny
Date: Apr 01, 2005
The Jenny is only an 1 1/2 hour drive from me and I visit her every now and then. If you can't get Frank's address I can take it to him, he is an incredibly nice guy by the way. Attached are two of my favorite pictures of her, and yes I did take them. What a thrill it was........ Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 7:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Jenny Does anyone know the name or have contact info for the owner of that beautiful Jenny that was at Brodhead and Oshkosh last year? My wife got a calender quality shot of it at sunrise and we want to send the guy a print. Also, what are Brodhead dates this year? Thanks, Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andimaxd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 02, 2005
Subject: Quick disconnect for control cables
Hello group, I need opinions/suggestions on how to put quick disconnects in my control cables for the three piece wing. I don't plan on taking the wings off every time I get back from flying, but, I would like an easy method of getting the cables loose without having to re-rig the plane every time. I am to understand that our English friends have addressed this, but will not tell us what they are doing. I have heard that the older gliders used cables, and that they had a feature like what I think I need. I have never seen one, and don't know where to even start. Any help would be appreciated... Max in Texas, 90% done....90% to go ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2005
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Quick disconnect for control cables
For those that fly Schweizer gliders , there's a cylindrical 'fitting' that's used to adjust the rudder cable lengths to accomodate pilots of different heights on the SGS 2-33. This fitting doesn't come completely apart as you need here, but the spirit of the design might be adapted. It's similar to a bayonet-style light bulb. Jim Ash >Hello group, > >I need opinions/suggestions on how to put quick disconnects in my control >cables for the three piece wing. I don't plan on taking the wings off >every time I get back from flying, but, I would like an easy method of >getting the cables loose without having to re-rig the plane every time. I >am to understand that our English friends have addressed this, but will >not tell us what they are doing. I have heard that the older gliders used >cables, and that they had a feature like what I think I need. I have >never seen one, and don't know where to even start. > >Any help would be appreciated... > >Max in Texas, 90% done....90% to go ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Doc's biplane design
Date: Apr 02, 2005
This prop was built by Ron Lustig from Chicago. He has since moved to Mexico to get a better standard of living on his SS payments. He commented to me that he had $200.00 worth of Honduran mahogany in it. I don't know what to tell you about the drawings, except that when I was at Brodhead last year some comfortable looking gentlemen, watching the progress of a brand new red bipe, powered with a 7-cylinder radial commented to the effect that the drawings were there. I've attached a picture of me holding the prop. I'm 6'-1", so you can get some appreciation of the size of the prop....Regards, Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doc's biplane design > > Hi Carl, that is great! Can a guy get a copy of those > drawings from Broadhead? I sure would like a copy. > Do you have any pics of your prop? If so, could you > email me some? That is exactly the type I prop I am > wanting to build. Do you recall who made your prop? > Is yours considered a climb or cruise prop, or maybe > just in between? Lots of questions, huh. Thanks for > any help you can lend me. > > Doc > > > --- Carl Vought wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Galen....You might be interested to know that at > > Brodhead they have > > drawings of The "Paragon" propeller that was the > > prop use on the Jenny. I > > have a 3/4 scale replica of that prop (72") which I > > believe was made from > > those drawings. The man that built it used mahogany > > and intended it for a > > Model A engine on a Piet, which is exactly what I > > intend to do with it. > > (it's a beautiful semi scimitar)...Carl Vought > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > > Subscriptions page, > > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > protection around > > > > > > -- > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Doc's biplane design
Car, that's a beautiful prop. Thanks. I'll see what I can come up with. May just have to make my own plans. Doc --- Carl Vought wrote: > This prop was built by Ron Lustig from Chicago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > > > Subscriptions page, > > > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > Subscriptions page, > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Quick disconnect for control cables
Date: Apr 02, 2005
Max, there are a couple Schweizers up at Aero Country that you might want to go look at for an idea on how things go together. Right now there's a 1-36 Sprite up at the north end of the field, under a tarp. Some work is being done on it, but they might let you take a look. By the way, one of the things I love about flying the Schweizer 1-36 is it's elevator trim. It's actuated by a metal handle mounted to the stick. Holding this handle depressed against the stick disengages the trim. Releasing the trim handle will trim the stick in whatever position it is in at the time the trim handle is released. Really an easy to use setup. If you do go up to check it out, see if you can figure out exactly how that trim system works....might be a neat setup for a Pietenpol..... Jim Markle Plano, TX 214.505.6101 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ash To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect for control cables For those that fly Schweizer gliders , there's a cylindrical 'fitting' that's used to adjust the rudder cable lengths to accomodate pilots of different heights on the SGS 2-33. This fitting doesn't come completely apart as you need here, but the spirit of the design might be adapted. It's similar to a bayonet-style light bulb. Jim Ash Hello group, I need opinions/suggestions on how to put quick disconnects in my control cables for the three piece wing. I don't plan on taking the wings off every time I get back from flying, but, I would like an easy method of getting the cables loose without having to re-rig the plane every time. I am to understand that our English friends have addressed this, but will not tell us what they are doing. I have heard that the older gliders used cables, and that they had a feature like what I think I need. I have never seen one, and don't know where to even start. Any help would be appreciated... Max in Texas, 90% done....90% to go ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2005
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Quick disconnect for control cables
The later versions of the 2-33 have this style trim also. The earlier ones are a simple lever on the left wall that fits into a series of notches. Aero Country was recommended to me when I was spending a lot of time in Texas (Austin & Waco) for business, but I'm not doing that any more and never made it out there. Jim Ash >Max, there are a couple Schweizers up at Aero Country that you might want >to go look at for an idea on how things go together. Right now there's a >1-36 Sprite up at the north end of the field, under a tarp. Some work is >being done on it, but they might let you take a look. > >By the way, one of the things I love about flying the Schweizer 1-36 is >it's elevator trim. It's actuated by a metal handle mounted to the >stick. Holding this handle depressed against the stick disengages the >trim. Releasing the trim handle will trim the stick in whatever position >it is in at the time the trim handle is released. Really an easy to use setup. > >If you do go up to check it out, see if you can figure out exactly how >that trim system works....might be a neat setup for a Pietenpol..... > >Jim Markle >Plano, TX >214.505.6101 >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:ashcan(at)earthlink.net>Jim Ash >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 12:12 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect for control cables > >For those that fly Schweizer gliders , there's a cylindrical 'fitting' >that's used to adjust the rudder cable lengths to accomodate pilots of >different heights on the SGS 2-33. This fitting doesn't come completely >apart as you need here, but the spirit of the design might be adapted. >It's similar to a bayonet-style light bulb. > >Jim Ash > > >>Hello group, >> >>I need opinions/suggestions on how to put quick disconnects in my control >>cables for the three piece wing. I don't plan on taking the wings off >>every time I get back from flying, but, I would like an easy method of >>getting the cables loose without having to re-rig the plane every >>time. I am to understand that our English friends have addressed this, >>but will not tell us what they are doing. I have heard that the older >>gliders used cables, and that they had a feature like what I think I >>need. I have never seen one, and don't know where to even start. >> >>Any help would be appreciated... >> >>Max in Texas, 90% done....90% to go ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com>
Subject: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings
Date: Apr 03, 2005
I've searched and searched the Archives and can't seem to come up with good contact information for Kerri Price. I called Hampton Airfield and they know who he is but they don't have any contact info. I called information as well but to no avail. Does anyone on the list have a way to contact her? Also, could anyone with the Kerri Price 3 piece wing, gapless hinges, steerable tailwheel, or the fuselage door modifications installed and flying please comment on how well they have worked out for you. I'm interested in weight penalty and safety as well as any other advantages or disadvantages you've run into. If you'd rather talk off list you can call me or email me direct. Links to Pictures would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks a Bunch. Jake Crause 315-346-1155 www.homebuiltairplanes.com Working on the work table! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings
Date: Apr 03, 2005
http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings > > > I've searched and searched the Archives and can't seem to come up with > good contact information for Kerri Price. I called Hampton Airfield and > they know who he is but they don't have any contact info. I called > information as well but to no avail. Does anyone on the list have a way > to contact her? > > Also, could anyone with the Kerri Price 3 piece wing, gapless hinges, > steerable tailwheel, or the fuselage door modifications installed and > flying please comment on how well they have worked out for you. I'm > interested in weight penalty and safety as well as any other advantages > or disadvantages you've run into. If you'd rather talk off list you can > call me or email me direct. Links to Pictures would be greatly > appreciated as well. Thanks a Bunch. > > Jake Crause > 315-346-1155 > www.homebuiltairplanes.com > Working on the work table! > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com>
Subject: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings
Date: Apr 03, 2005
Jim, Thanks for the quick reply. Unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Markle [mailto:jim_markle(at)mindspring.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings
Date: Apr 03, 2005
Have you tried Gary Price? There was a posting within the past year by the party who bought the wreck of NX311GP (maybe that was you???). According to Doc Mosier's directory, the address is 8 Piper Lane, Hampton, NH 03842.....Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings > > I've searched and searched the Archives and can't seem to come up with > good contact information for Kerri Price. I called Hampton Airfield and > they know who he is but they don't have any contact info. I called > information as well but to no avail. Does anyone on the list have a way > to contact her? > > Also, could anyone with the Kerri Price 3 piece wing, gapless hinges, > steerable tailwheel, or the fuselage door modifications installed and > flying please comment on how well they have worked out for you. I'm > interested in weight penalty and safety as well as any other advantages > or disadvantages you've run into. If you'd rather talk off list you can > call me or email me direct. Links to Pictures would be greatly > appreciated as well. Thanks a Bunch. > > Jake Crause > 315-346-1155 > www.homebuiltairplanes.com > Working on the work table! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2005
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings
<000001c53883$5f52a490$f5723243@desktop> Jake, You must have something that is blocking the web site (Geocities is blocked by some corporate networks). The site works fine from my account. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 At 03:28 PM 4/3/2005, Jake Crause wrote: > > >Jim, > >Thanks for the quick reply. Unfortunately the link doesn't work >anymore. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Markle [mailto:jim_markle(at)mindspring.com] >Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 2:01 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings > > > >http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 03, 2005
Subject: box spars
does anyone have the plans for a box spar for a piet, i saw one at a website called peters pietenpol ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com>
Subject: Kerri Price - Supplemental Drawings
Date: Apr 03, 2005
Oops, Take that back. I tried the link 20 minutes later and it's up. Not sure what I did. Thanks. http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2005
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: box spars
I think you are looking for this website: http://www.cpc-world.com/ Hope this is it. I too am building box spars, but they will be different from these. Doc --- TRichmo9(at)aol.com wrote: > does anyone have the plans for a box spar for a > piet, i saw one at a website > called peters pietenpol > __________________________________ Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 03, 2005
did the test today and with my infrared gun there was about a 15% error. Probably not a good idea to use a gun.... stick with a thermometer. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > > Howdy, fabric heads- > > One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the > iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. > My question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a > "mercury thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I > see no reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, > too. > > I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: weber carb question
Date: Apr 04, 2005
Hello, Got my model A running on a test stand but have a strange behavior. I have a weber auto carb on it and two mags run to a normal AC switch on the control panel. It starts and runs beautifully, but then it'll just up and quit. Doesn't matter what the throttle setting is, or how long it's run. The most it ran was four minutes or so, but the more I ran it, the shorter the durations seems to be between quits. When it quits it just quits, sounds like someone cut the switch, no sputtering, then it'll start up again nicely so I think the ignition is fine. I'm going to try spraying some fuel in the carb as it quits which will tell me if it is the carb, but does anyone have any thoughts? ________________________________________________________________________________ ETAtAhQK0iXGnbOThdWGSqOPQJArlFpQ/QIVALv9BpCQz3VOlsN92G8yNmhiMgAE
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Apr 04, 2005
Subject: Price drawings
"could anyone with the Price 3 piece wing, gapless aileron, front cockpit door on a flying Piet please comment on......." Jake, I bought all of the Price drawings and have built his fiberglass tank, gapless piano hinge aileron, and front cockpit door, but am still building not flying so I cant comment. I didn't build her..(him at the time) 3 piece wing because the Western Ac sup. wood kit I bought was set up for the Vi Kapler 3 piece wing so I went that route. I went for the simpler leaf spring tail wheel because it was easy and fast. The main reason I did the cockpit door was because I was building in my basement at the time. I could only build things up to a size that I could get up the stairs and around a corner. I could flex the fus. sides around the corner so I built them, but could nerver get a built fuselage out so building stalled. During a stalled construction period I added the door to the right side mostly for something to do. Afterward I regretted adding the weight because I am going to use the Ford A. At 40hp there probably never, or rarely have anyone in the front pit, so that convenience was wasted. Since then I have decided to re do my engine--insert bearings, Model B cam etc. for more HP. I may then have the power to haul passengers after all, and the door will be real handy. Stay tuned. Leon Stefan 7 years into a 2 year project. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Waytogopiet(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 04, 2005
Subject: Re: weber carb question
Maybe it's not your carb. Is your tank vented? Is it at least 9 inches above the float bowl? Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Subject: Re: weber carb question
Is your ignition coil shorting out when it gets hot? Or getting condensation when heated up? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2005
From: Mark <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: weber carb question
BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote: > Is your ignition coil shorting out when it gets hot? Or getting > condensation when heated up? I know someone that had a bad mag on a Baron, so he taxied back and borrowed a Cherokee 6 from a friend. As it turned out he had both mags fail soon after heating up and he spent the afternoon keeping the cows away from an undamaged airplane. As it turned out one was likely breaking down soon after takeoff for sometime but would likely leave no warning to the pilot of this type of airplane at the weights it was typically flown and even then it would be tough to spot. The other decided to join it with him flying the airplane. One thing is for sure. It has to be either something with the fuel, ignition or a problem with compression :-) Let us know what you find. Never know when someone else will see the same problem again. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: $7,000 Piet on Barnstormers.com
SUBJ_DOLLARS 0.01 SUBJ_DOLLARS Subject starts with dollar amount Just saw this on barnstormers. Doesn't look too bad. Mike C. PIETENPOL HOMEBUILT =95 $7,000 =95 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE =95 Pietenpol Air Camper, long fuselage, corvair powered, 85% complete and running, %100 of parts to finish. Lots more to tell, more than I can write. Call Gary @ 603 566 4771for full details and many more pictures. Great original, to the plans Pietenpol. =95 Contact Gary L. Enneking - located Pembroke, NH USA =95 Telephone: 603 566 4771 =95 Posted March 23, 2005 =95 Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser =95 Recommend This Ad to a Friend =95 Send a Message ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Subject: Gascolator location
I wanted the subject line to read "Gascolator Locator" ... ha, but this is Monday morning and humor is better later in the week. I don't have my motormount ready yet but I need to figure a spot on my firewall where most folks are hanging their gascolators for the Continental A engines. I recall that most everybody has them as low on the firewall as they can be placed, and I also recall someone ripping one off during a very hard landing, so maybe they can be installed too low? Does anybody have a picture of their firewall showing their gascolator location they can e-mail to me? I'm building my fuselage tanks (yes tankS) and I need to know where my gascolator will go before I get too far along with my Styrofoam tank molds. Thanks, Sterling Brooks Knot-2-Shabby Airport ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Subject: Re: Weber Carb
My guess is that there isn't enough fuel pressure. Runs fine until the carb bowl runs empty then she quits. But there must be just enought fuel/head pressure to refill the carb relatively quickly -- then she starts right up again. Any chance the fuel filter is partially plugged, or fuel line? Could possibly be an electric component in the ignition that is heating up and then opens the circuit -- but I imagine you have a magneto. Sounds like fuel starvation to me...FWIW. Been working on my Piet's landing gear struts and metal fittings. With this nice spring weather I sure wish it were finished -- couple years yet, though, unless I win the Powerball or some other lottery. Then it won't be a case of building faster than budget allows...! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Weber Carb
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Dale Johnson and I had the same problem. Engine would start and run fine but the fuel bowl would empty out. The problem was an air-bound fuel line. The fix was easy. Just lift the tail as high as possible for a minute or so until the air bubble worked it's way back up to the tank. No problems after that. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Weber Carb My guess is that there isn't enough fuel pressure. Runs fine until the carb bowl runs empty then she quits. But there must be just enought fuel/head pressure to refill the carb relatively quickly -- then she starts right up again. Any chance the fuel filter is partially plugged, or fuel line? Could possibly be an electric component in the ignition that is heating up and then opens the circuit -- but I imagine you have a magneto. Sounds like fuel starvation to me...FWIW. Been working on my Piet's landing gear struts and metal fittings. With this nice spring weather I sure wish it were finished -- couple years yet, though, unless I win the Powerball or some other lottery. Then it won't be a case of building faster than budget allows...! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: P.F. Beck's Corvair Pietenpol
Date: Apr 05, 2005
There is a nice multi-page article by P.F. Beck on his Corvair conversion and installation in his Pietenpol, in the current issue of the SAA publication, "To Fly". P.F. was also written up in William Wynne's newsletter, "The Corvair Flyer". Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX (A65 Pietenpol) mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Different, yes, but how does one determine which is right..the thermometer or the IR device? I can see a 10 degree variation over the surface of the sole plate when the iron is operating off its' built-in thermostat........Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > did the test today and with my infrared gun there was about a 15% error. > Probably not a good idea to use a gun.... stick with a thermometer. > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> > To: > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:36 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > > > > > > > Howdy, fabric heads- > > > > One of the keys to proper installation of Poly-Fiber is temperature of the > > iron during the shrinking steps. Calibration of the iron is called for. > > My question: has anyone tried using an infrared heat gun rather than a > > "mercury thermometer" for iron calibration? They are very accurate and I > > see no reason why it wouldn't work as well as a thermometer. Simpler, > > too. > > > > I'm about to jump into the wonderful world of fabric covering... > > > > Oscar Zuniga > > San Antonio, TX > > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: Weber Carb
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Agree with Fred re: fuel pressure, as possible problem. I put an O-235 on N-1033B, while testing with only a couple gal. fuel, the carb acted starved. This engine was designed for planes with fuel tanks in the wings, therefore a couple lbs of headpressure. The tank behind the firewall on the Piete seems to me to be too low to maintain much head pressure while the engine is sucking fuel at higher RPMs. I put on a battery system, because of the issues of handpropping, so it was easy to put a 12 volt Facit fuel pump in the fuel system plumbing. I've tested this headpressure issue a couple times by running the engine at 2000 rpms without the fuel booster pump. After as few minutes the carb starves, I flip on the booster pump and the problem goes away. So, part of the checklist for takeoff, landing and low fuel tanks is put the booster pump on. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B " But such is the constitution of my mind I cannot avoid forming an opinion", John Adams. Such is the weakness of my character to give voice to that opinion- GB ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Weber Carb My guess is that there isn't enough fuel pressure. Runs fine until the carb bowl runs empty then she quits. But there must be just enought fuel/head pressure to refill the carb relatively quickly -- then she starts right up again. Any chance the fuel filter is partially plugged, or fuel line? Could possibly be an electric component in the ignition that is heating up and then opens the circuit -- but I imagine you have a magneto. Sounds like fuel starvation to me...FWIW. Been working on my Piet's landing gear struts and metal fittings. With this nice spring weather I sure wish it were finished -- couple years yet, though, unless I win the Powerball or some other lottery. Then it won't be a case of building faster than budget allows...! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JVGAZDA(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 05, 2005
Subject: Piet For Sale
Piet with Approx 600 Hrs. TTAE. 90 HP Franklin with starter but no electric system. Rebuilt in 1993 and covered with Stits. Dual Throttles and Mixtures. Wing and fuselage fuel tanks. DFW area. $12000. email jvgazda(at)aol.com for additional info and pictures. Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Weber Carb
In a message dated 4/5/2005 6:54:14 PM Central Standard Time, gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com writes: Dale Johnson and I had the same problem. Engine would start and run fine but the fuel bowl would empty out. The problem was an air-bound fuel line. The fix was easy. Just lift the tail as high as possible for a minute or so until the air bubble worked it's way back up to the tank. That's the first thing I thought of. The fuel line from the carb MUST be a continous slope down to the gascolator, then up to the tank. No place for air to accumulate. Fuel starvation is the most common reason of engine failures. Design your fuel system very carefully, and double check fuel delivery rate, with the airframe jacked up in the highest angle of attack. In this attitude, it should deliver at least 150% of the maximum fuel consumption of the engine. 200% would be even better. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: fabric iron calibration
Date: Apr 06, 2005
"A man with one watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure." Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Vought Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration Different, yes, but how does one determine which is right..the thermometer or the IR device? I can see a 10 degree variation over the surface of the sole plate when the iron is operating off its' built-in thermostat........Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabric iron calibration > > did the test today and with my infrared gun there was about a 15% error. > Probably not a good idea to use a gun.... stick with a thermometer. > > DJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Air Bound Fuel Lines - was Weber Carb
Fellow Piet lovers, I'm a little reluctant to chime in here, but I must relate my experience with the Cessna 150 fuel system. This will support the air-bound fuel line possibility. The C-150 fuel system is almost as simple as it gets. It has 2 wing tanks with 3/8 inch lines that Y together, an on/off valve, a gascolator -- that's about it. I ran the plane low on gas once and took off with about 1/4 tank (or maybe less) and must have unported the fuel pickups in the tank. At about 800 feet AGL the engine shut off. After that it ran just barely enough to get me turned around and back to the airport. Here the story begins. I shut off the fuel valve and removed the line at the carburetor. When I tried to drain the tanks into a gas can nothing came out. After blowing into the line (by mouth) and hearing bubbles go into the tank (or tanks), the fuel began to flow. I drained the system and shut off the fuel valve, then put 5 gallons of gas in one tank. Turned on the valve and nothing came out of the hose to the carb. A slight blow of air into the hose and all 5 gallons drained from the tank. Ah, the hose must have a flap in it. Took the hose apart and inspected it carefully. Blew into both ends of the hose. Could not detect any defect at all. Disassembled the gascolator. Found nothing wrong. Repeated the above on the other wing tank. No flow. Blew into the line, all 5 gallons came out. Took the whole system apart -- line by line, fitting by fitting, looking for something acting like a check valve. No problems found at all. Put the whole thing back together and flew it for 4 more years, before selling the airplane. I still don't understand it, but I certainly believe that you can have an "air-bound fuel line." If anyone can explain how my experience is possible, I would like to hear it. It certainly seems like gravity would win, but it didn't. Dan Hopper Walton, IN RV-7A - flying, Pietenpol - still drooling over the plans. In a message dated 4/5/05 6:54:14 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time, gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com writes: Dale Johnson and I had the same problem. Engine would start and run fine but the fuel bowl would empty out. The problem was an air-bound fuel line. The fix was easy. Just lift the tail as high as possible for a minute or so until the air bubble worked it's way back up to the tank. No problems after that. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: _TBYH(at)aol.com_ (mailto:TBYH(at)aol.com) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Weber Carb My guess is that there isn't enough fuel pressure. Runs fine until the carb bowl runs empty then she quits. But there must be just enought fuel/head pressure to refill the carb relatively quickly -- then she starts right up again. Any chance the fuel filter is partially plugged, or fuel line? Could possibly be an electric component in the ignition that is heating up and then opens the circuit -- but I imagine you have a magneto. Sounds like fuel starvation to me...FWIW. Been working on my Piet's landing gear struts and metal fittings. With this nice spring weather I sure wish it were finished -- couple years yet, though, unless I win the Powerball or some other lottery. Then it won't be a case of building faster than budget allows...! Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Subject: Re: P.F. Beck's Corvair Pietenpol
________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Subject: Re: P.F. Beck's Corvair Pietenpol
For those of you who have not had the privilege of meeting P.F., you haven't met a nicer Southern gent than Mr. Beck, and if you haven't seen pictures of his airplane, we'll have to figure out a way to post some. It is a very nice bird, as is the builder. S.B. TACO Land ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2005
From: barnstmr(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Weber Carb
Something else to chedk happened to me one time... Check the fuel hose from Gascolator to carburetor inlet to verify it is free. One time I had a hose swell inward due to age/deterioration. The passageway was almost completely restricted. It was not evident on the outside of the hose. But was a dangerous situation. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Weber Carb In a message dated 4/5/2005 6:54:14 PM Central Standard Time, gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com writes: Dale Johnson and I had the same problem. Engine would start and run fine but the fuel bowl would empty out. The problem was an air-bound fuel line. The fix was easy. Just lift the tail as high as possible for a minute or so until the air bubble worked it's way back up to the tank. That's the first thing I thought of. The fuel line from the carb MUST be a continous slope down to the gascolator, then up to the tank. No place for air to accumulate. Fuel starvation is the most common reason of engine failures. Design your fuel system very carefully, and double check fuel delivery rate, with the airframe jacked up in the highest angle of attack. In this attitude, it should deliver at least 150% of the maximum fuel consumption of the engine. 200% would be even better. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Piet For Sale
Guys--- this is a SHARP looking plane.........Jerry had e-mailed me some photos. His e-mail is below. Mike C. >Piet with Approx 600 Hrs. TTAE. 90 HP Franklin with starter but >no electric system. Rebuilt in 1993 and covered with Stits. Dual >Throttles and Mixtures. Wing and fuselage fuel tanks. DFW area. >$12000. email jvgazda(at)aol.com for additional info and pictures. > >Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Google gets more amazing . . .
>Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key >is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. >. . . by the day. > >Try the "beta" version of <http://www.google.com/maps>www.google.com/maps >by doing this: > >Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address >in the search window like this: > >123 main st, anytown, state, zip code >(or something similar in form) > >Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. > >Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and >click on "Satellite." > >Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. > >(And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother >is watching.) > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 06, 2005
I tired it last night and about carpped my shorts. I was able to find an overhead shot of my childhood home in Alabama in less than 15 seconds hey Mike, send me an offline email of your home address. I wanna see your street! DJ djv(at)imagedv.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D Cuy To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:58 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. . . . by the day. Try the "beta" version of www.google.com/maps by doing this: Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address in the search window like this: 123 main st, anytown, state, zip code (or something similar in form) Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and click on "Satellite." Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. (And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother is watching.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 06, 2005
From: "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Great stuff, I'm dumping my Map Quest stock. How current do you think the imagery is? Jack Textor Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. . . . by the day. Try the "beta" version of www.google.com/maps <http://www.google.com/maps> by doing this: Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address in the search window like this: 123 main st, anytown, state, zip code (or something similar in form) Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and click on "Satellite." Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. (And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother is watching.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 06, 2005
currency of the imagery in my area is about 12-18 months old. It's easy to tell out here cause the city is growing so fast that I can tell when certain buildings are there or not. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Textor, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:23 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . Great stuff, I'm dumping my Map Quest stock. How current do you think the imagery is? Jack Textor Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. . . . by the day. Try the "beta" version of www.google.com/maps by doing this: Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address in the search window like this: 123 main st, anytown, state, zip code (or something similar in form) Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and click on "Satellite." Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. (And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother is watching.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 06, 2005
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu>
I can also validate that it is 18 months old. For the same reason. What is really cool is looking at airliners captured on approach, and on runways at the local airports. Yeah. I was flying touch and goes at the time. :-) caught on film. Just kidding about the last part. Steve Eldredge ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . currency of the imagery in my area is about 12-18 months old. It's easy to tell out here cause the city is growing so fast that I can tell when certain buildings are there or not. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Textor, Jack <mailto:jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:23 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . Great stuff, I'm dumping my Map Quest stock. How current do you think the imagery is? Jack Textor Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. =09 =09 =09 =09 . . . by the day. =09 Try the "beta" version of www.google.com/maps <http://www.google.com/maps> =09 Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address in the search window like this: =09 123 main st, anytown, state, zip code (or something similar in form) =09 Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. =09 Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and click on "Satellite." =09 Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. =09 (And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother is watching.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 06, 2005
I saw what appeared to be an MD-80 on departure out of PHX when I looked. Pretty cool. what if some guy looked at his house and it showed a car of a friends who he's known has always had the hots for his stay at home wife. hmmmm..... or maybe a car accident or building fire was captured right as it happened. Wouldn't that be interesting DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Eldredge To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . I can also validate that it is 18 months old. For the same reason. What is really cool is looking at airliners captured on approach, and on runways at the local airports. Yeah. I was flying touch and goes at the time. J caught on film. Just kidding about the last part. Steve Eldredge From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 1:37 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . currency of the imagery in my area is about 12-18 months old. It's easy to tell out here cause the city is growing so fast that I can tell when certain buildings are there or not. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Textor, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:23 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . Great stuff, I'm dumping my Map Quest stock. How current do you think the imagery is? Jack Textor Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. . . . by the day. Try the "beta" version of www.google.com/maps by doing this: Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address in the search window like this: 123 main st, anytown, state, zip code (or something similar in form) Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and click on "Satellite." Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. (And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother is watching.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike McCarty" <mmccarty(at)zianet.com>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 06, 2005
I thought these would be the same images that you could get on terraserver.microsoft.com, but these are much better. I looked up my residence on Holloman AFB. You can see the German AF Tornadoes sitting on the southeast ramp and their F-4s to the west. On the southwest ramp you can see the F-117 hangars in two rows north to south, but none of the aircraft are outside. To the northwest on White Sands Missile Range the photos are kind of washed out, but you can pick out the 20,000 ft crossed runways where they landed the space shuttle once in the early 80's. Mike McCarty ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . I saw what appeared to be an MD-80 on departure out of PHX when I looked. Pretty cool. what if some guy looked at his house and it showed a car of a friends who he's known has always had the hots for his stay at home wife. hmmmm..... or maybe a car accident or building fire was captured right as it happened. Wouldn't that be interesting DJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2005
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: weber carb
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Thanks everyone for your suggestions! I blew air into the fuel inlet to displace any gunk and possibly free up any sticky needle or float. Then rerouted the fuel line to make sure there was no possible air trap, which I don't think there was, but did anyways. Started up on the first prop and ran great, no quits. Once warmed I tried full throttle, and noticed that the gas seemed to be burbling in my inline transparant fuel filter. I just felt that it wasn't getting enough fuel as i thought it should show higher rpms. Raised the tank fourteen inches and added three gallons, there was only half a gallon left. got three hundred more rpms after this! So while raising the tank helped, it wasn't the original culprit. I can't say if the compressed air helped clear or loosen something or if there was somehow a little air trap in the fuel line. Lots of little tweeks to do still. Doesn't want to idle low without choke, which tells me the idle jet is too small. left mag is retarded way too much and runs rough, etc, etc, etc. thanks again! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
I tried this and indeed found poo-poo in Mesa, Arizona in the 4000 block of Fairfield Street, so DJ must have been telling the truth. I suspect the photo-satellite had passed over Arizona, shortly after DJ had the enlightenment, because all I found was the remnants of his experience and DJ must have already gone back in his garage to work on his pristine GN-1. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 07, 2005
Subject: Re: Weber Carb
In a message dated 4/6/2005 9:19:48 AM Central Standard Time, barnstmr(at)aol.com writes: Check the fuel hose from Gascolator to carburetor inlet to verify it is free. One time I had a hose swell inward due to age/deterioration. The passageway was almost completely restricted. It was not evident on the outside of the hose. But was a dangerous situation. I had a similar experience, but it wasn't due to age / deterioration. I made up an AeroQuip hose, with the replaceable ends, and it scrunched up the rubber inside of the hose. I caught the problem while doing the fuel flow test, before I even started the engine. I tried several more times to install that end of the hose - No Joy. Possibly didn't use the proper Cuss Words !! I=20now use auto fuel line, and barbed end fittings, with double mini clamps. I change this auto fuel hose at each annual 'Condition Inspection', as regular maintenance. I recently bought another Aeroquip hose (as well as the 'Installation Tool'), and will attempt installing the ends again. I much prefer using AeroQuip hose (with 37=BA Flair), than the auto fuel hose. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
I found my house here in Vancouver, complete with the 10' X 20' big white tarp canopy covering my backyard. Couldn't see the Piet fuselage under it though. :-) That canopy has only been up since last summer, August I think. Jim, was that location in the grayish map area or the green one. The green has significantly less detail than the gray. Also I used both mapquest and google to home in on my daughter's house in Toronto, openned each in a web page and clicked back and forth between them until I found the place. Thanks Mike, this is neat. I went to the location of a company I used to work for that works on DOD aircraft. The image was significantly blurry, much blurrier than any of the regular images I saw. I wonder if this is chance? Jim Ash I thought these would be the same images that you could get on terraserver.microsoft.com, but these are much better. I looked up my residence on Holloman AFB. You can see the German AF Tornadoes sitting on the southeast ramp and their F-4s to the west. On the southwest ramp you can see the F-117 hangars in two rows north to south, but none of the aircraft are outside. To the northwest on White Sands Missile Range the photos are kind of washed out, but you can pick out the 20,000 ft crossed runways where they landed the space shuttle once in the early 80's. Mike McCarty ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 07, 2005
Subject: Burl Wood Instrument Panel (Help)
I just received my premium elm burl veneer from Constantine's Wood Center in Fort Lauderdale, Florida... Wow! This is a very pretty wood and thanks to those on the list who steered me to their website. (Good folks to do business with...) The veneer is very delicate and I hope to use it over a spruce plywood that will go into my instrument panels. I almost hate to put instruments in the panel because the burl is so nice looking. Can any of you experienced in working with burl provide me some tips before approaching the task of adhering the burl to my spruce plywood? This looks more delicate than I had anticipated. I'd also like advise on what type of gloss-coat to put over burl. I'll be ordering a gallon of Press Bond Glue from Constantine's later today (wish it came in smaller quantities)... Thanks in advance. Sterling Brooks 5TA6 San Antonio Sectional ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Google gets more amazing . . .
Date: Apr 07, 2005
I suspect some images are older than others. When I looked at Cox Field in Apex, NC, where I keep my Pietenpol, I saw my old Cessna 140 tied down (easily recognizable because it was solid orange, with blue and white trim - no other orange airplanes around). I sold that plane in April of 2002 to a fellow from out of state, so this image is at least that old. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Eldredge Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . I can also validate that it is 18 months old. For the same reason. What is really cool is looking at airliners captured on approach, and on runways at the local airports. Yeah. I was flying touch and goes at the time. :-) caught on film. Just kidding about the last part. Steve Eldredge _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . . currency of the imagery in my area is about 12-18 months old. It's easy to tell out here cause the city is growing so fast that I can tell when certain buildings are there or not. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Textor, <mailto:jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Google gets more amazing . . .. Great stuff, I'm dumping my Map Quest stock. How current do you think the imagery is? Jack Textor Guys-- I tried this for cities like Brodhead, Oshkosh, etc.......the key is to click on 'satellite' for a color photo that you can drag the mouse around on to find airports, your house, etc. .....very cool Mike C. . . . by the day. Try the "beta" version of <http://www.google.com/maps> www.google.com/maps by doing this: Go to www.google.com/maps, then enter your home address in the search window like this: 123 main st, anytown, state, zip code (or something similar in form) Hit "return" and see a map similar to a mapquest map. Now -- look at the upper right corner of the window and click on "Satellite." Try zooming in, then use your mouse to move the image. (And keep your back lawn mowed & trimmed -- big brother is watching.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2005
From: Mark <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Google gets more amazing . . .
Phillips, Jack wrote: > I suspect some images are older than others. When I looked at Cox > Field in Apex, NC, where I keep my Pietenpol, I saw my old Cessna 140 > tied down (easily recognizable because it was solid orange, with blue > and white trim no other orange airplanes around). I sold that plane > in April of 2002 to a fellow from out of state, so this image is at > least that old. > > Jack Phillips, PE > Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development > Clinical Technologies and Services > Cardinal Health > Creedmoor, NC > (919) 528-5212 > Well I occasionally run into these in my other work as an aerial photographer. They are rarely very good, and often copyright is an issue. If you really want good work, you almost always have to get it done yourself from someone you have seen examples of first hand. It usually ain't cheap though, but sometimes its not as expensive as you think. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 07, 2005
Subject: Burl veneer problem solved
Vacuum bagging (while an attractive option) looks like the best way to go, but for such a small project I'm not in a position to invest in more hardware. I ordered the appropriate glue and will build my own press. The panel is only 24 wide and 10 inches at the max height and I think a press will do OK. If not, I'll have a large, odd-shapped wooden frisbee for my German Shepherds. Thanks to all who replied off list for the tips. Sterling Brooks 5TA6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike McCarty" <mmccarty(at)zianet.com>
Subject: Re: Burl veneer problem solved
Date: Apr 07, 2005
I would have thought that you could laminate it like a kitchen counter, contact cement on both surfaces and then go over it with a roller. Does it have to be more complicated than that? -Mike McCarty ----- Original Message ----- From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 10:58 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Burl veneer problem solved Vacuum bagging (while an attractive option) looks like the best way to go, but for such a small project I'm not in a position to invest in more hardware. I ordered the appropriate glue and will build my own press. The panel is only 24 wide and 10 inches at the max height and I think a press will do OK. If not, I'll have a large, odd-shapped wooden frisbee for my German Shepherds. Thanks to all who replied off list for the tips. Sterling Brooks 5TA6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Burl Wood Instrument Panel (Help)
I used water based contact cement made for arborite countertops. You could use the solvent based stuff if you can handle the nasty fumes. It won't cause any buckling as the waterbased will. I had little trouble myself with the waterbased glue. You'll need at least two coats on each side. Burl has a mix of every grain from flat to end as the slice has cut through the waves of grain. Mine was fine with only two coats. You need to lay down a series of small sticks to keep the panels sepatated but close enough to line up. Once that is done then you carefully pull out an end stick and press the panels together. At this point it's too late to make any real changes but the whole thing should be eyeballed again. Slide out the next stick and press that area down. Keep going like this and you should reach the other end with a reasonably flat surface. The traditional way of flattening and permanently sticking it all together is to hammer it down over the entire surface with a light force but not like wacking a nail. If you get small wrinkles they can be worked out with some judicial pressing with the hammer face. Make sure that face is smooth. go over it with sandpaper if neccessary. How much sanding you can do depends on the thickness of the veneer. I had two different thicknesses to deal with. One veneer is quite thin and the other a lot thicker so could take a lot more abuse. I have finished mine with the Helmsman. Lay down a thin coat and when dry sand it out wet with 400 wet/dry paper. Use a quarter sheet and fold it twice to give 4 surfaces. Keep building and sanding thin coats like this until a smooth, dull sheen is established then go to a 600 paper. From here one would rub out with pumice and finaly rottenstone, then wax. Then send pictures to Fine Woodworking. :-) :-) On the other hand you could simply coat with the Helmsman and leave it shiny. After all, that is what marine varnish is for. The relative softness keeps it from cracking with the movement of the wood and the mirror shine it develops is there to reflect the UV away. There's a couple of shots of my veneer at the bottom of this page http://clifdawson.ca/Pietenpol4.html Good luck Sterling ( Isn't that what Armstrong said on the moon?) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Burl Wood Instrument Panel (Help) I just received my premium elm burl veneer from Constantine's Wood Center in Fort Lauderdale, Florida... Wow! This is a very pretty wood and thanks to those on the list who steered me to their website. (Good folks to do business with...) The veneer is very delicate and I hope to use it over a spruce plywood that will go into my instrument panels. I almost hate to put instruments in the panel because the burl is so nice looking. Can any of you experienced in working with burl provide me some tips before approaching the task of adhering the burl to my spruce plywood? This looks more delicate than I had anticipated. I'd also like advise on what type of gloss-coat to put over burl. I'll be ordering a gallon of Press Bond Glue from Constantine's later today (wish it came in smaller quantities)... Thanks in advance. Sterling Brooks 5TA6 San Antonio Sectional ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 08, 2005
Subject: Re: Burl veneer problem solved
Mike: That was my assumption too. But the burl arrived with a "tip-sheet." Of the recommendations they suggested are to very much avoid using contact cement. They suggest that the contact cement seeps through the burl. So I purchased a two-part adhesive as recommended by Constantine's. According to the tip-sheet, the burl is first dampened with a mixture of water, alcohol and glycerin ... then placed between Kraft paper. They then advise placing the burl under a flat wood panel with a minimum amount of weight. 24 hours later, the burl is examined to determine if it is still wavy. If it is, the above procedure is repeated until the burl is flat.... Then, for the next 5 days, they suggest placing the burl between fresh (dry) Kraft paper to dry the wood out, replacing with new Kraft paper each day. The veneer is then kept under a weighted panel at all times until the bond is made. Lot's of work, but I saw a homebuilt at Oshcash last year having a burl panel and it was the nicest looking panel I've seen. It really made that wooden airplane look sharp. A fellow TACO has been nice enough to offer his vacuum bagging skills and I hope to do this process in a few weeks in the Dallas area. Maybe I'll post a couple of pictures on Mykitplanes in a month or so if anyone is interested. Sterling Brooks 5TA6, San Antonio Sectional ________________________________________________________________________________
From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 08, 2005
Subject: Re: Burl veneer problem solved
You can lay down your press like this Bottom board - wax paper - plywood backing - glue (not contact, t-88 ok - veneer - wax paper - 1inch foam rubber - top board / clamp this together sqeezing the foam. The foam will insure contact over all of the veneer. C clamps and 3/4 top and bottom boards will work fine. Howdy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 08, 2005
Subject: uk piet plans
does anyone have the address so i can get a set of uk pietenpol plans i want to build box spars tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: uk piet plans
Date: Apr 09, 2005
Check out http://www.cpc-world.com > "Suppliers & Services" > "Suppliers". It's at the top of the page. Cheers Peter. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRichmo9(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans does anyone have the address so i can get a set of uk pietenpol plans i want to build box spars tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2005
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From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Wally Messages Stopped!
Dear Listers, My sincere apologies! At about 4:30am this morning there was an odd system problem on the Matornics email server, causing many mail files to become marked as "read-only". This wedged many of the List filters causing all sorts of weird behavior. Perhaps the oddest was that an innocent message from Walter Critchlow, kept getting posted instead of the actual incoming List message. If you receive this message, and sent a list message to any of the lists your message was one of the ones that got subverted. Please repost your message to the respective list. AeroElectric-list Commandaer-list Engines-List Europa-List Kitfox-List Kolb-List Pietenpol-List Rocket-List RV-List RV9-List RV10-List Tailwind-List Yak-List Zenith-List Again, my sincere apologies for the problems. I was doing my Taxes (!) today and wasn't keeping as close an eye on the Lists as I normally do. Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Waytogopiet(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 10, 2005
Subject: Re: Sun 'n Fun / Was: YEEEEHAAAAAW !!!!
In a message dated 4/10/2005 3:49:50 PM Central Standard Time, ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes: is Charlie Rubeck showing up? I'd heard his health wasn't so great, but that doesn't slow some people down too much. Haven't heard but I'll be there about 2 PM tomorrow (Mon.) and will enquire. If anyone hangs in tough it would be Charlie. The wood shop would not be the same without him ! Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Waytogopiet(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 10, 2005
Subject: Re: Anyone brining a Piet to Sun-N-Fun?
Ben, Since you are on a tight schedule, be sure to stop in and introduce yourself at the woodworking tent. We'll be working on a Piet fuselage and you're almost certain to meet other Piet builders who work or just kinda hang out there. Look forward to meeting you. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckle question
Date: Apr 10, 2005
Larry, You are allowed a maximum of three threads to be showing on each end of your turnbuckle assemblies. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckle question > Nelson > > > I own Howard Hendersons N444MH. Because > Howard is an > Adonis and I am closer to Archie Bunker, > today I began > work to move the wing back 3", which I have > done. I > thought I would only have to remake the "X" > brace > wires at the cabane struts and dremel out > some metal > so the brace and aileron cables won't chafe > on the > cowling. I also, however, had to > reconfigure the wing > stut X wires. I was able to just adjust the > turnbuckles but one is only threaded > "halfway", that > is, half the threads on each end of the > turnbuckle > ends are exposed. There are 5/8" length of > threads on > each end and have of those are threaded > into the > barrel. Is this kosher or do I have to > remake these > two wires? Some nice day (soon) I will be > flying this bird. > > Larry Nelson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Sun N Fun
Date: Apr 11, 2005
If any Pieters are wandering around the vendor area of Sun N Fun, please stop by the Steen Aero Lab tent and say hi to me and my better half Kristin... we always try to work in some Piet photos in our daily reports on the Steen website, hopefully we'll have a few Piets to see this time around. (Heck, on April First I actually got away with claiming Mike Cuy's Piet as the new "Sport Pilot Skybolt"... it's still posted in the news area at www.steenaero.com :) Anyhoo, Kristin and I are still future Piet/Corvair builders at this point, but I always love to talk Piets and airplanes in general with like-minded folks! Look forward to spending some time in the woodworking tent... I didn't see any Piet forums on the listing from earlier this week, but hopefully there will be something. I think it'll be a really good show, and the weather should be nice. BTW, you should also be sure to go see William Wynne's Corvair Zodiac XL over in the Zenith Aircraft display... it's a great aircraft and flies really nicely... climbs like a rocket! BTW, if anyone would like to give someone their very first ride in an Air Camper, I'm always available! :) Bedtime now... gotta drive to Lakeland in the AM. Hope to see some of you there. Fly safe! -Mike Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2005
From: tbyh(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Charlie Rubeck
Last year at Brodhead when I purchased a set of Piet wing ribs from Charlie, he told me that he had leukemia and was in his 5th or 6th year with it and had begun to build a resistance to the chemotherapies that were keeping the leukemia in check. This was last summer, so I don't know anything more recent than that. I had never met Charlie before that and so imagine that if he told me, surely his close friends are aware of his situation. In fact, if it were anyone other than all of you and his aviation community of friends, I wouldn't post this info about Charlie. Let's all say a prayer for Charlie... Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 2005
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
In a message dated 4/10/2005 11:08:20 AM Central Standard Time, wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes: pulled it thru six blades with the mag off, selected left mag, second pull it was running. Hey Walt, Mine was just as easy to get running about a month ago...and I don't even have a primer !! Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 2005
Subject: Re: YEEEEHAAAAAW !!!!
Don, YEEEEE HAAAAAWWWW !!! Says it all !! Congratulations !! Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: uk piet plans
----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans Looking closely at Peters wing page should give you all the info you need. One thing that is important that you see on the gusset blocks at both the root and outer strut attachment points is that the blocks are not cut straight across. The ends taper into the cap area, or "butterfly". The longer that taper the better. If you cut those blocks straight you are creating a stress riser and at the outer block that could have serious consequences as the load stress for the outer section is concentrated here due to the parabolic nature of the load forces. There have been a lot of sailboats with laminated masts lose said mast because of this. And that's essentialy what our spars are. What I like to do is right click on a construction pic that interests me and hit "save picture as" and label it and save. Once it's in your pic file you double click to bring it up in it's own window. There's a zoom funcion here. Zoom it up till just before it starts to get too fuzzy to see properly. Now you can study the details. I just got back from a great weekend in Victoria. Revisited the " Victoria Piet" on my Kitplane page and took pics of a new Piet undergoing taxi tests. It's too late tonight but I'll post them tommorow. The Piet that's there now was built around 1933. It's rumoured to be the oldest continuously registered plane in Canada. Notice the registration begins with "A". The builder's son inhereted it and rebuilt it a number of years ago. Just to whet your appetite, the new Piet has a Ford "B" on the nose. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans Check out http://www.cpc-world.com > "Suppliers & Services" > "Suppliers". It's at the top of the page. Cheers Peter. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRichmo9(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 8:39 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans does anyone have the address so i can get a set of uk pietenpol plans i want to build box spars tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: pictures
So much for posting pics. The camera is still in Victoria! I'm going over again on the 30th for the Alberni flyin and another pilgrimage through the huge Mars waterbombers. Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: uk piet plans
Date: Apr 12, 2005
Clif, The same pictures are in the "Photographs" section of the web site. Click on the picture and you get a full size picture displayed. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson <mailto:CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans Looking closely at Peters wing page should give you all the info you need. One thing that is important that you see on the gusset blocks at both the root and outer strut attachment points is that the blocks are not cut straight across. The ends taper into the cap area, or "butterfly". The longer that taper the better. If you cut those blocks straight you are creating a stress riser and at the outer block that could have serious consequences as the load stress for the outer section is concentrated here due to the parabolic nature of the load forces. There have been a lot of sailboats with laminated masts lose said mast because of this. And that's essentialy what our spars are. What I like to do is right click on a construction pic that interests me and hit "save picture as" and label it and save. Once it's in your pic file you double click to bring it up in it's own window. There's a zoom funcion here. Zoom it up till just before it starts to get too fuzzy to see properly. Now you can study the details. I just got back from a great weekend in Victoria. Revisited the " Victoria Piet" on my Kitplane page and took pics of a new Piet undergoing taxi tests. It's too late tonight but I'll post them tommorow. The Piet that's there now was built around 1933. It's rumoured to be the oldest continuously registered plane in Canada. Notice the registration begins with "A". The builder's son inhereted it and rebuilt it a number of years ago. Just to whet your appetite, the new Piet has a Ford "B" on the nose. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W <mailto:vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> Johnson Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans Check out http://www.cpc-world.com > "Suppliers & Services" > "Suppliers". It's at the top of the page. Cheers Peter. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRichmo9(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: uk piet plans does anyone have the address so i can get a set of uk pietenpol plans i want to build box spars tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: YEEEEHAAAAAW !!!!
Date: Apr 12, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Way to go, Don! You have just joined a very select fraternity of those who have built and flown their own airplane. There is no better feeling in the world. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Waytogopiet(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: YEEEEHAAAAAW !!!! Hi All After 12 years of building that included cataract, back and quad bypass surgeries AND my 80th birthday I flew NX 920Y yesterday !! Although she handled beautifully and the ol' Model A was sounding sweet for some reason that I'll have to figure out after I return from Sun N Fun, I was only pulling 100 rpm at full throttle over the 1650 that she showed static on the test stand. I was expecting to see 18-1900. So the flight was interesting to say the least but the landing went well ( with all of the drag characteristics I had anticipated) I'll be working at the wood workshop at SNF and would love to chat with all Pieters and particularly any of you Model A gurus who might attend. Don Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2005
From: AVIATION GROUP <aviationgrp(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Aviation News
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com AVIATION News Group is to view & share your valuable comments and the latest trends and happenings in the aviation industry. Please click on the attached yahoo group link site to share & receive the updates on the latest happenings, business ventures, business opportunities, Air Shows and Exhibitions, New Aircraft releases, and certifications, Career news, Appointments etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVIATION-NEWS/ Please take few moments recommend us to your near & dears in the industry. We welcome your valuable comments and updates. With best regards AVIATION NEWS. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVIATION-NEWS/ --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 2005
Subject: Re: OT - help with aircraft identification
Engine and size of flaps ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: smoke oil
Date: Apr 12, 2005
Howdy, low, slow, and smoky fliers; Well, here's the scoop on "Canopus" smoke oil. I can get it, but only in quantities of 55 gal. drum. I'm not opposed to that if I could get somebody to buy some of it to help with cost. I know what a drum will cost me, but getting down to usable quantities, what would you smokers be willing to pay? My cost would be about $7 a gallon but I'd need to get it into smaller containers and get it to guys who wanted some... not real easy to handle, but it's doable (where I work, we ship barrels, drums, and containers of all sorts). So I'd say with packing and all, it would cost maybe $8 a gallon for me to handle. What are you smokers paying for baby oil, vegetable oil, or the other stuff you guys stick in your tailpipes? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2005
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: smoke oil
What are you smokers paying for baby oil, vegetable oil, or the other stuff you guys stick in your tailpipes? I think I'll stay with baby powder for now...... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2005
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
Chuck, What do you do? Just pull thru with the mag off till it pulls in the gas you need? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continentals are great In a message dated 4/10/2005 11:08:20 AM Central Standard Time, wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes: pulled it thru six blades with the mag off, selected left mag, second pull it was running. Hey Walt, Mine was just as easy to get running about a month ago...and I don't even have a primer !! Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2005
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
report In a few days (hopefully) I'll be flying home my new (to me) GN-1 with a Continental A-75. It hasn't run in several months, and so I'm a little worried about the engine. It has been hangared (in Indiana) for the winter. Makes me feel good to hear that storage for several months isn't all that unusual. What should I check before I take off? I'll check the screen, and the oil will be fresh, but what else should I look for? Should I be concerned about rust in the cylinders or anything else? I was going to get it two weeks ago, but didn't even get through Oklahoma before the engine in the 172 we were flying quit on us. Landed uneventfully in a field. Needless to say, I'm a little more paranoid about engines now. Thanks for any input, Steve Ruse Quoting walt evans : > Chuck, > What do you do? Just pull thru with the mag off till it pulls in the > gas you need? > walt evans > NX140DL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 4:27 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continentals are great > > > In a message dated 4/10/2005 11:08:20 AM Central Standard Time, > wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes: > pulled it thru six blades with the mag off, selected left mag, > second pull it was running. > Hey Walt, > Mine was just as easy to get running about a month ago...and I > don't even have a primer !! > > Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2005
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
report I should have included this...before anybody asks, yes a pre-buy was done, compressions are all good (mid-70s at least). I've flown an L2 with a Continental 65 about 20hrs, but don't know as much as I would like to know about them. I don't know if there are any quirks or rules of thumb I should know when starting an engine that has been sitting for a while. It seems to me that an engine that has been sitting for several months must be very dry, I can't help but think that there must be some metal to metal contact for a few seconds after starting. Thanks, Steve Ruse Quoting Steve Ruse : > > In a few days (hopefully) I'll be flying home my new (to me) GN-1 with a > Continental A-75. It hasn't run in several months, and so I'm a little > worried > about the engine. It has been hangared (in Indiana) for the winter. > Makes me > feel good to hear that storage for several months isn't all that > unusual. What > should I check before I take off? I'll check the screen, and the oil will be > fresh, but what else should I look for? Should I be concerned about rust in > the cylinders or anything else? > > I was going to get it two weeks ago, but didn't even get through > Oklahoma before > the engine in the 172 we were flying quit on us. Landed uneventfully in a > field. Needless to say, I'm a little more paranoid about engines now. > > Thanks for any input, > > Steve Ruse > > Quoting walt evans : > >> Chuck, >> What do you do? Just pull thru with the mag off till it pulls in >> the gas you need? >> walt evans >> NX140DL >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 4:27 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continentals are great >> >> >> In a message dated 4/10/2005 11:08:20 AM Central Standard Time, >> wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes: >> pulled it thru six blades with the mag off, selected left mag, >> second pull it was running. >> Hey Walt, >> Mine was just as easy to get running about a month ago...and I >> don't even have a primer !! >> >> Chuck G. > > ________________________________________________________________________________ ETAsAhRRUpGWhfszMNgNLbvddLoAC+kg4QIUG/mSoigmHj8P+68uL6lQGykV45Q=
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Apr 12, 2005
Subject: Re: OT - help with aircraft identification
I unloaded a C-170 2 yrs. ago and I am surprised at how much I have forgotten about them. I believe a straight 170 had a fabric wing. C-145 engine. They are the fastest model. The 170A was all metal with small ( 140 style flaps ) and had a cooling box over the engine inside the cowling. The 170 B has big flaps full pressure cowling. Later 170 Bs had more dihedral in the wings, more squared rear D window. The 56 170s was the start of lots of plastic in the interior.. A's and B's had the 0-300 engine. I have no idea what the diference is between the 2 engines. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
Date: Apr 12, 2005
good luck on the GN-1 flight! You got a great deal on a nice plane. Let us know how the flight goes! DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continentals are great > > In a few days (hopefully) I'll be flying home my new (to me) GN-1 with a > Continental A-75. It hasn't run in several months, and so I'm a little > worried > about the engine. It has been hangared (in Indiana) for the winter. Makes me > feel good to hear that storage for several months isn't all that > unusual. What > should I check before I take off? I'll check the screen, and the oil will be > fresh, but what else should I look for? Should I be concerned about rust in > the cylinders or anything else? > > I was going to get it two weeks ago, but didn't even get through > Oklahoma before > the engine in the 172 we were flying quit on us. Landed uneventfully in a > field. Needless to say, I'm a little more paranoid about engines now. > > Thanks for any input, > > Steve Ruse > > Quoting walt evans : > > > Chuck, > > What do you do? Just pull thru with the mag off till it pulls in the > > gas you need? > > walt evans > > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 4:27 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continentals are great > > > > > > In a message dated 4/10/2005 11:08:20 AM Central Standard Time, > > wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes: > > pulled it thru six blades with the mag off, selected left mag, > > second pull it was running. > > Hey Walt, > > Mine was just as easy to get running about a month ago...and I > > don't even have a primer !! > > > > Chuck G. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 2005
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
In a message dated 4/12/2005 4:05:37 PM Central Standard Time, wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes: Chuck, What do you do? Just pull thru with the mag off till it pulls in the gas you need? Walt, Yep. I don't even have a primer installed. Stick back in the seat belt, wheels choked, engine idle, mags OFF, pull 6 or 10 blades to pump a little oil up, and get an air / fuel charge in the intake (even with the mags off - always assuming the engine will run). I then walk back around, re-check everything and turn the mags on Both. It usually starts the first or second blade. One time, two weeks ago, I tried to start it, but it wouldn't fire. I carefully pulled a blade slowly past compression, and BRUUMMMM !! She fired up !! Scared me...I wasn't expecting that !! I thought I could slowly pull it past compression, but it started as soon as the impulse couplings on both Slick mags kicked. Chuck G. planning on shooting some video of take-off's and landings on Wednesday evening. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 2005
Subject: Re: smoke oil
In a message dated 4/12/2005 4:21:10 PM Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: What are you smokers paying for baby oil, vegetable oil, or the other stuff you guys stick in your tailpipes? Oscar, I was buying the cheap Baby Oil at Wal Mart, I think it was a little over $1 for the big bottle. I got some strange looks, when I checked out with 8 or 10 bottles of the stuff !! That's the best way to buy it when on a big cross country flight, because I don't like the thought of carrying a big supply of oil for smoke. I since bought a 5 gal bucket of Edcot Light White Mineral Oil, item #47106-05, from Hampel Oil Distributors, here in Wichita. It was $30 for the 5 gal. They told me it's what they sell to the Airshow Pilots. It still smokes pretty good, but it seemed like the Baby Oil from Wal Mart smoked a little better, and it smelled real good to the crowd. You should have some oil distributors in the San Antonio area, where you could buy 5 gal of White Mineral Oil - the stuff used for Baby Oil. Jim M. - Save the Baby Powder, to powder your Poe Poe on a long cross country flight !! Chuck G. Smoke 'em, if ya got 'em !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 2005
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
Steve, When was the last time this plane was flown ? If the engine has orange paint at the base of the cylinders, it indicates Chrome Cylinders, and there will NOT be any rust in the cylinders. There probably isn't much you can do for rust in the cylinders, before you start it. I would suggest a VERY thorough airframe and engine inspection, with a flashlight and mirror in some of the inspection covers, especially the control system. Don't trust anyone else's inspection. It's true that the first few seconds of run time, is when the engine incurs most of it's wear, so after it is running, keep a good eye on the oil pressure to come up. I think Continental recommends shutting down after 30 seconds if oil pressure does not come up, but 30 seconds seems like an eternity with the engine idling. Check the prop real good, and if possible, re-torque the wood prop. Ask when the last time the prop was torqued. I re-torque my prop at least 2 or 3 times a year, because humidity effects the torque. If you do re-torque the prop, cut the safety wire, back off each bolt to break it loose before bringing the torque back up. You should probably do an engine run of about 20 or 30 minutes to get the engine up to operating temp, then shut down, and do another thorough inspection under the cowling. Do a few taxi runs, and high speed runs too, so you get used to the ground handling. Once airborne, choose your route over open areas, and always assume the engine is going to quit, so you already have a place in mind to land in a field. You need to be at the top of your game for this flight. Why did the engine on the 172 quit ?? Does it have a Lycoming O-320 engine ? Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2005
From: tbyh(at)aol.com
Subject: The Old Pilot
Check out Garrison Keillor's "Writer's Almanac" today (4/13) -- has a neat poem called "The Old Pilot." Here's the link -- enjoy! newsletter(at)americanpublicmedia.org Also, I discovered that you can find all kinds of Piet photos just by using Google's "photographs" search...I imagine you all knew this, but just in case...most of this list's airplanes show up, I imagine... Got the spring raking and yard work done and so will be back working on the Piet this weekend...hope to get the landing gear fittings finished and possibly get the l.g. struts attached...then again, one of the boys has a baseball game up at Chippewa Falls, Wis. on Saturday...can't miss that, either. Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The Old Pilot
Date: Apr 13, 2005
This link worked better for me..... http://www.writersalmanac.org/ Anyone who knows anything about Garrison will appreciate my goal (Our family has loved and enjoyed Garrison's work for well over 20 years....) of flying my Piet over Lake Wobegon and dropping TP on the Lutherans....... Jim in Plano..... ----- Original Message ----- From: tbyh(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: The Old Pilot Check out Garrison Keillor's "Writer's Almanac" today (4/13) -- has a neat poem called "The Old Pilot." Here's the link -- enjoy! newsletter(at)americanpublicmedia.org Also, I discovered that you can find all kinds of Piet photos just by using Google's "photographs" search...I imagine you all knew this, but just in case...most of this list's airplanes show up, I imagine... Got the spring raking and yard work done and so will be back working on the Piet this weekend...hope to get the landing gear fittings finished and possibly get the l.g. struts attached...then again, one of the boys has a baseball game up at Chippewa Falls, Wis. on Saturday...can't miss that, either. Fred B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2005
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: Continentals are great
report Chuck, Thanks for the suggestions, I will check into everything you mentioned. The plane was inspected by an A&P/IA who has built several planes. The plane was last flown in the summer & spring of 2004. I didn't see any orange paint at the bottom of the cylinders, so I guess that means no chrome. That is something I didn't know. Here are some pictures of the engine/cylinders: http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2004Dec27%20-%20GN1/DSC01143.JPG http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2004Dec27%20-%20GN1/DSC01156.JPG http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2004Dec27%20-%20GN1/DSC01084.JPG The prop is a Prince P-tip prop, I will find out when it was last tourqued. I plan on spending a good amount of time taxiing, and running the engine up before I actually take it up. After having the engine out in the 172, I will always be looking for a place to go. It is a Lycoming O-320, and we're not sure why it quit yet. The owner is still waiting on the insurance company to get it to the shop. My only guess is that it sucked an intake valve. Only 30hrs ago a shop replaced the keepers on the #2 intake valve, but not the actual valve. It started running very rough, shaking the cockpit quite a bit, in just a few seconds. No warning at all from the oil pressure or temperature. There was a small amount of oil that leaked from somewhere around the #2 cylinder, but we couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from, it was late evening and we didn't have time or daylight to really check it out when sitting in a field. One minute we were cruising along just fine, and literally one minute later we were on the ground scratching our heads. Here are some pictures of the landing site and the story if you are interested: http://www.wotelectronics.com/engineout/ This was actually my second engine out in only 125hrs of flying. The other was a 150, luckily I was on downwind when it happened. Any suggestions on what to look for under the cowling after running it for a while on the ground? I'm guessing most things will be fairly obvious (oil leaks, anything loose, etc.). I've done a good amount of work with auto engines, but just typical "under the cowl" inspections that a pilot always does on an airplane. Thanks again for the information, it is really appreciated. Steve Ruse Quoting Rcaprd(at)aol.com: > Steve, > When was the last time this plane was flown ? > If the engine has orange paint at the base of the cylinders, it indicates > Chrome Cylinders, and there will NOT be any rust in the cylinders. There > probably isn't much you can do for rust in the cylinders, before you > start it. I > would suggest a VERY thorough airframe and engine inspection, with a > flashlight > and mirror in some of the inspection covers, especially the control system. > Don't trust anyone else's inspection. It's true that the first few > seconds of > run time, is when the engine incurs most of it's wear, so after it is > running, > keep a good eye on the oil pressure to come up. I think Continental > recommends shutting down after 30 seconds if oil pressure does not > come up, but 30 > seconds seems like an eternity with the engine idling. Check the > prop real good, > and if possible, re-torque the wood prop. Ask when the last time the > prop was > torqued. I re-torque my prop at least 2 or 3 times a year, because humidity > effects the torque. If you do re-torque the prop, cut the safety wire, back > off each bolt to break it loose before bringing the torque back up. > You should > probably do an engine run of about 20 or 30 minutes to get the engine up to > operating temp, then shut down, and do another thorough inspection under the > cowling. Do a few taxi runs, and high speed runs too, so you get used to the > ground handling. Once airborne, choose your route over open areas, > and always > assume the engine is going to quit, so you already have a place in > mind to land > in a field. You need to be at the top of your game for this flight. > Why did the engine on the 172 quit ?? Does it have a Lycoming O-320 > engine ? > > Chuck G. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 2005
Subject: Pre-Buy Inspection
Steve, I looked at all the pictures. Can't tell much about the engine from the pictures. The health of the engine is determined by the compression test, inspection of the oil screen, oil consumption listed in the log book, visible oil leaks, visible exhaust leaks at the flange...that kind of stuff. Wipe off any oil on your first inspection, before starting the engine, then after the engine run, you can see how much is actually leaking. Slight oil leaks are acceptable, and you shouldn't really expect to find a completely dry cowling area. Pull and push on the prop / crankshaft to feel the end play in the crank. Klunk / klunk - You should feel about .005 to .010. Serviceable limit is .025. Push up and down on the prop to check front bearing clearance, while holding some back pressure, especially if you note oil leak at the front seal. You shouldn't really very much at all, but don't confuse the for and aft movement of the crank, with up and down play...that's why you hold some back pressure while trying to feel up and down play in the crank. Shake and wiggle everything to look for loose items, but be careful not to break anything. Do that on the entire airframe. Tighten up anything you find loose. Look for cracks in all steel parts, especially the landing gear, and engine mount. Cracks are more easily seen if the item is painted white. Have a rag with yo to wipe things off for a better look. Bright flashlight, mirror, note pad & pen are a must, and a magnifying glass is also a good idea. Take your time, and touch and feel every item on the entire airframe. Have a good look at the log books (be careful to have clean hands !!). Make a plan of the sequence of the inspection, and don't be tempted to jump around. Complete each portion, and take notes. The EAA puts out a good checklist to give you a starting point. I think you'll find it if you search their site. If not, I think I have it somewhere in the bits & bytes of my computer, and I could e-mail it to you directly. Be well rested and alert before you begin the inspection, probably first thing in the morning. Take your time...this is a LOT more than a pre-flight inspection...probably take at least a few hours, before you even start the engine. You could even take a break after the taxi runs, and go have lunch, and relax for a while. Gives you an opportunity to talk about the things you've just done. Don't get in a hurry, enjoy and learn !! The pics of the 172 landing in the field was more impressive !! Great job getting 'er down !! I hope I never have to go through anything like that !! You guys must be living right !! Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2005
From: Mark <aerialphotos(at)dp.net>
Subject: Re: Pre-Buy Inspection
Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > Steve, > I looked at all the pictures. Can't tell much about the engine > from the pictures. The health of the engine is determined by the > compression test, inspection of the oil screen, oil consumption listed > in the log book, visible oil leaks, visible exhaust leaks at the > flange...that kind of stuff. Wipe off any oil on your > first inspection, before starting the engine, then after the engine > run, you can see how much is actually leaking. Slight oil leaks are > acceptable, and you shouldn't really expect to find a completely dry > cowling area. Pull and push on the prop / crankshaft to feel the end > play in the crank. Klunk / klunk - You should feel about .005 to > .010. Serviceable limit is .025. Push up and down on the prop to > check front bearing clearance, while holding some back pressure, > especially if you note oil leak at the front seal. You shouldn't > really very much at all, but don't confuse the for and aft movement of > the crank, with up and down play...that's why you hold some back > pressure while trying to feel up and down play in the crank. Shake > and wiggle everything to look for loose items, but be careful not to > break anything. Do that on the entire airframe. Tighten up anything > you find loose. Look for cracks in all steel parts, especially the > landing gear, and engine mount. Cracks are more easily seen if the > item is painted white. Have a rag with yo to wipe things off for a > better look. Bright flashlight, mirror, note pad & pen are a must, > and a magnifying glass is also a good idea. Take your time, and touch > and feel every item on the entire airframe. Have a good look at the > log books (be careful to have clean hands !!). Make a plan of the > sequence of the inspection, and don't be tempted to jump around. > Complete each portion, and take notes. The EAA puts out a good > checklist to give you a starting point. I think you'll find it if you > search their site. If not, I think I have it somewhere in the bits & > bytes of my computer, and I could e-mail it to you directly. > Be well rested and alert before you begin the inspection, probably > first thing in the morning. Take your time...this is a LOT more than > a pre-flight inspection...probably take at least a few hours, before > you even start the engine. You could even take a break after the taxi > runs, and go have lunch, and relax for a while. Gives you an > opportunity to talk about the things you've just done. Don't get in a > hurry, enjoy and learn !! > The pics of the 172 landing in the field was more impressive !! > Great job getting 'er down !! I hope I never have to go through > anything like that !! You guys must be living right !! > > Chuck G. One other thing if the engine hasn't been used much recently. Id find a mechanic with a borescope to actually look down inside the engine. They will usually start ok, and run just fine, but lack of use can often lead to rust inside the engine. That will hold compression till its used regularly again, then lo and behold the rust works off and you have a low time engine with no compression and needs a complete overhaul. Sometimes if you are really not so lucky the cam and the crank can be bad as well. If you can't get a mechanic with a scope, Id pay them to pull a cylinder to actually look inside and see just what you have. A penny spent up front may well save thousands later. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Pre-Buy Inspection
Run your finger up in the exhaust stacks and take a swipe. Carbon or tan ? Tells how the engine is running. Rich or ring leaks, or tan--good, light carbon okay too. PS-- I did not receive any of the photos of the plane in question for the pre-buy....would anyone/someone be kind enough to send them to me directly ? Thank you ! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-Buy Inspection
Date: Apr 15, 2005
Mike, I've got tons of photos of the plane. I can send them to you later tonight. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pre-Buy Inspection > > Run your finger up in the exhaust stacks and take a swipe. Carbon or tan > ? Tells how the engine is running. Rich or > ring leaks, or tan--good, light carbon okay too. > > PS-- I did not receive any of the photos of the plane in question for the > pre-buy....would anyone/someone be kind enough > to send them to me directly ? Thank you ! > > Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Don Hicks and pre-buy note
Don-- Somehow I was off the list for a few days but wanted to re-post my applause to you and for keeping at it for 12 years thru the good times and bad. Kinda like a marriage vow but you can sell the airplane:)) Seriously, our hats are off to you, and mine belatedly but heartfelt. Thanks Bill for the link to those photos of the pre-buy plane. The Prince Props are excellent...... they are made by Lonnie Prince, former ATC guy near Bowling Green Ohio. He makes some gorgeous carbon fiber encapsulated wood-core props. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2005
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: [Please Read] Matronics Email Server Upgrade...
Dear Listers, I will be upgrading the Matronics Email Server this weekend. This includes some hardware improvements - more memory, faster, more capable processors - as well as a complete operating system upgrade from scratch. I hope to have both the old system and the new system running at the same time to minimize the actual impact of the upgrade. Hopefully there will be little actual downtime during the transition, but a few posts may get lost in the shuffle. If you don't see your post show up on the List in the normal amount of time (plus a little bit), then please just try posting it again. Upgrading the Matronics Email Server operating system (from Redhat Linux 7.2 to Redhat Linux WS 4) is a sizeable undertaking and requires a great deal of work to port all of the utilities, programs, and scripts over to the new system. As I've already mentioned, both the old and new systems will be on line at the same time, so interruption should be held to an absolute minimal. You might see a couple of odd test messages during the cut-over or other odd messages; please just ignore them. I have setup a new System Status Web Page that I will use to update List Members on the current status of the email and web systems. Please refer to it as often as you like: http://www.matronics.com/SystemStatus/ Thank you for your continued support of the List Services at Matronics! Its your yearly Contributions that make these major upgrades possible! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2005
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: [Please Read] Matronics Email Server Upgrade Complete!
Dear Listers, The upgrade of the Matronics Email Server can be considered complete at this time. All known issues related to the upgrade process have been resolved and email services are running normal. The Nightly Digest processing has not yet been tested and will wait for tonight's update. If you encounter any odd behavior with respect to the Matronics Email Server over the next few days, please contact me via email at dralle(at)matronics.com or if that fails try dralle(at)speakeasy.net. Thanks to everyone for being patient through this arduous process of a major system upgrade! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator At 12:37 PM 4/16/2005 Saturday, Matt Dralle wrote: >Dear Listers, > >I will be upgrading the Matronics Email Server this weekend. This >includes some hardware improvements - more memory, faster, more capable >processors - as well as a complete operating system upgrade from >scratch. I hope to have both the old system and the new system running at >the same time to minimize the actual impact of the upgrade. > >Hopefully there will be little actual downtime during the transition, but >a few posts may get lost in the shuffle. If you don't see your post show >up on the List in the normal amount of time (plus a little bit), then >please just try posting it again. > >Upgrading the Matronics Email Server operating system (from Redhat Linux >7.2 to Redhat Linux WS 4) is a sizeable undertaking and requires a great >deal of work to port all of the utilities, programs, and scripts over to >the new system. As I've already mentioned, both the old and new systems >will be on line at the same time, so interruption should be held to an >absolute minimal. You might see a couple of odd test messages during the >cut-over or other odd messages; please just ignore them. > >I have setup a new System Status Web Page that I will use to update List >Members on the current status of the email and web systems. Please refer >to it as often as you like: > > http://www.matronics.com/SystemStatus/ > > >Thank you for your continued support of the List Services at >Matronics! Its your yearly Contributions that make these major upgrades >possible! > >Best regards, > >Matt Dralle >Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: wing incidence
Date: Apr 18, 2005
Howdy, Pieters- Actually, I intended this post as a test just to see if it's only me or the list is unusually quiet... but as long as I'm here writing, I'll ask this question. The front cabane struts are to be made 1" longer than the rear ones to provide wing incidence. I believe I saw something in the notes from Don Pietenpol that the 1" differential provides roughly 3 degrees incidence. I have drawn it up in CAD and it works out to more like 2 degrees. Anybody know what it is or should be? I've had to remake my front cabane struts to replace the damaged ones and I made them 1" longer than the rear ones but am curious as to the wing incidence that is supposed to result. My plan when I get ready to re-rig the wings is to set the fuselage level (based on the upper longerons), measure the incidence of the wing center section by using a template of the wing's upper camber and a smart level, then use that angle and the template to adjust the wing struts and brace wires to set the outer wing panel incidence uniformly. I also plan to rig it as Don recommends, with the wingtips about 1" high so that when the supports are removed, the wings will "settle" to level or zero dihedral. I'll go back and search the archives for posts on rigging the wings. As I said, this post was mostly intended to test the Matronics server to see if it's been really quiet the last few days or what. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: wing incidence
Date: Apr 18, 2005
mine is set to 1.8 DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing incidence > > > Howdy, Pieters- > > Actually, I intended this post as a test just to see if it's only me or > the list is unusually quiet... but as long as I'm here writing, I'll ask > this question. The front cabane struts are to be made 1" longer than the > rear ones to provide wing incidence. I believe I saw something in the > notes from Don Pietenpol that the 1" differential provides roughly 3 > degrees incidence. I have drawn it up in CAD and it works out to more like > 2 degrees. Anybody know what it is or should be? I've had to remake my > front cabane struts to replace the damaged ones and I made them 1" longer > than the rear ones but am curious as to the wing incidence that is > supposed to result. > > My plan when I get ready to re-rig the wings is to set the fuselage level > (based on the upper longerons), measure the incidence of the wing center > section by using a template of the wing's upper camber and a smart level, > then use that angle and the template to adjust the wing struts and brace > wires to set the outer wing panel incidence uniformly. I also plan to rig > it as Don recommends, with the wingtips about 1" high so that when the > supports are removed, the wings will "settle" to level or zero dihedral. > > I'll go back and search the archives for posts on rigging the wings. As I > said, this post was mostly intended to test the Matronics server to see if > it's been really quiet the last few days or what. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: wing incidence
Date: Apr 18, 2005
The angle of incidence and the angle between the two top cabane holes is not the same thing. The angle created by two points, 1" higher than the other, spaced at 28 3/4" (the Pietenpol plans show 27 3/4" between the 1" spars), is 1.99 degrees.....and if the chord line in the airfoil was "flat"...that would be the angle of incidence. But the airfoil's chord line is tilted up from a line that would be drawn between these two holes.....so I believe you would add that 1.99 to the airfoil's actual (and tilted up) angle of incidence..... Jim Markle Plano, TX 214.505.6101 ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing incidence > > mine is set to 1.8 > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> > To: > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 2:56 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing incidence > > >> >> >> Howdy, Pieters- >> >> Actually, I intended this post as a test just to see if it's only me or >> the list is unusually quiet... but as long as I'm here writing, I'll ask >> this question. The front cabane struts are to be made 1" longer than the >> rear ones to provide wing incidence. I believe I saw something in the >> notes from Don Pietenpol that the 1" differential provides roughly 3 >> degrees incidence. I have drawn it up in CAD and it works out to more >> like 2 degrees. Anybody know what it is or should be? I've had to >> remake my front cabane struts to replace the damaged ones and I made them >> 1" longer than the rear ones but am curious as to the wing incidence that >> is supposed to result. >> >> My plan when I get ready to re-rig the wings is to set the fuselage level >> (based on the upper longerons), measure the incidence of the wing center >> section by using a template of the wing's upper camber and a smart level, >> then use that angle and the template to adjust the wing struts and brace >> wires to set the outer wing panel incidence uniformly. I also plan to >> rig it as Don recommends, with the wingtips about 1" high so that when >> the supports are removed, the wings will "settle" to level or zero >> dihedral. >> >> I'll go back and search the archives for posts on rigging the wings. As >> I said, this post was mostly intended to test the Matronics server to see >> if it's been really quiet the last few days or what. >> >> Oscar Zuniga >> San Antonio, TX >> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2005
From: BernadetteTS <docfont(at)voyager.net>
Subject: Jenny rigging
A month or two ago someone mentioned building a Jenny replica based on the Pietenpol airframe. I offered to make copies of some 1918 factory drawings and rigging manuals I have. Would the person who wanted these send me an email? There are 34 pages and the local blueprint shop charged me 30 cents a page to make copies. Figure $3 for shipping if I can sneak it through as media mail. DocFont ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 19, 2005
Subject: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, 14, 15 http://www.swrfi.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
Date: Apr 19, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Wish I could, but that is even further than Brodhead from Raleigh. Besides, the plane is still in my basement. I'll see you at Brodhead, though. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N321TX(at)wmconnect.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas) Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, 14, 15 http://www.swrfi.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: wing incidence
Date: Apr 19, 2005
Mr. Smart-Alec (aka, "Jim Markle") wrote- >the airfoil's chord line is tilted up from a line that would be >drawn between these two holes.....so I believe you would add >that 1.99 to the airfoil's actual (and tilted up) angle of incidence... Well of course you would. I knew that, but didn't want to go over everybody's head with a bunch of engineer talk and trigonometry ;o) I should have used the proper terminology and all that. But both you and DJ confirmed what I was finding... that the difference in cabane length leads to about a 2 degree incidence change to a line drawn across the bottom (or top) of the two wing spars. What I was trying to get out of my head was the 3 degrees that I'd read somewhere, because that isn't what you get with a 1" cabane strut length difference. Thanks, gents. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2005
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
report I would love to, but my brother is getting married on the 15th and I better be there or I'll be in trouble. Another great TX fly-in is the Reklaw fly-in in Ocotober. I've seen a Sky-Scout there, but would love to see some more Pietenpols or GN-1s. It is a fun ~2-day camping fly-in, usually around 200 planes on a BIG grass strip in the middle of the piney woods in East Texas (Reklaw, TX). You can camp on site, or there is a shuttle that will take you to a nearby hotel. E-mail me if anyone needs more information. http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID=363 For anyone that is curious, I got my GN-1 home this weekend, a three-day, 820 mile trip! It was a great trip, I had a lot of fun, and met some of the nicest people around. I'll post some pictures and details when I have time. For now though, there is a GN-1 at KGYI in Sherman, TX. Steve Ruse N6383J - Coppell, TX Quoting N321TX(at)wmconnect.com: > Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, > 14, 15 > > http://www.swrfi.org > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 19, 2005
Subject: Re: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
In a message dated 4/19/05 9:13:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve(at)wotelectronics.com writes: I would love to, but my brother is getting married on the 15th and I better be there or I'll be in trouble. Another great TX fly-in is the Reklaw fly-in in Ocotober. I've seen a Sky-Scout there, but would love to see some more Pietenpols or GN-1s. It is a fun ~2-day camping fly-in, usually around 200 planes on a BIG grass strip in the middle of the piney woods in East Texas (Reklaw, TX). You can camp on site, or there is a shuttle that will take you to a nearby hotel. E-mail me if anyone needs more information. http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID=363 For anyone that is curious, I got my GN-1 home this weekend, a three-day, 820 mile trip! It was a great trip, I had a lot of fun, and met some of the nicest people around. I'll post some pictures and details when I have time. For now though, there is a GN-1 at KGYI in Sherman, TX. Steve Ruse N6383J - Coppell, TX Quoting N321TX(at)wmconnect.com: > Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, > 14, 15 > > http://www.swrfi.org > > tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2005
From: Super Secret <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
How many Pietenpols usually show up at Brodhead? I've just ordered plans to build one and might be a good idea to see a few in person. I'm in middle TN and that might make a nice road trip. On 4/19/05, Steve Ruse wrote: > > > > > I would love to, but my brother is getting married on the 15th and I > better be > there or I'll be in trouble. > > Another great TX fly-in is the Reklaw fly-in in Ocotober. I've seen a > Sky-Scout > there, but would love to see some more Pietenpols or GN-1s. It is a fun > ~2-day > camping fly-in, usually around 200 planes on a BIG grass strip in the > middle of > the piney woods in East Texas (Reklaw, TX). You can camp on site, or > there is a > shuttle that will take you to a nearby hotel. E-mail me if anyone needs > more > information. > > http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID363 > > For anyone that is curious, I got my GN-1 home this weekend, a three-day, > 820 > mile trip! It was a great trip, I had a lot of fun, and met some of > the nicest > people around. I'll post some pictures and details when I have time. For > now > though, there is a GN-1 at KGYI in Sherman, TX. > > Steve Ruse > N6383J - Coppell, TX > > Quoting N321TX(at)wmconnect.com: > > > Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May > 13, > > 14, 15 > > > > http://www.swrfi.org > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 19, 2005
Subject: Re: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
In a message dated 4/19/05 10:16:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, covertspecialops(at)gmail.com writes: How many Pietenpols usually show up at Brodhead? I've just ordered plans to build one and might be a good idea to see a few in person. I'm in middle TN and that might make a nice road trip. On 4/19/05, Steve Ruse <_steve(at)wotelectronics.com_ (mailto:steve(at)wotelectronics.com) > wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <_steve(at)wotelectronics.com _ (mailto:steve(at)wotelectronics.com) > I would love to, but my brother is getting married on the 15th and I better be there or I'll be in trouble. Another great TX fly-in is the Reklaw fly-in in Ocotober. I've seen a Sky-Scout there, but would love to see some more Pietenpols or GN-1s. It is a fun ~2-day camping fly-in, usually around 200 planes on a BIG grass strip in the middle of the piney woods in East Texas (Reklaw, TX). You can camp on site, or there is a shuttle that will take you to a nearby hotel. E-mail me if anyone needs more information. _http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID=363 _ (http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID=363) For anyone that is curious, I got my GN-1 home this weekend, a three-day, 820 mile trip! It was a great trip, I had a lot of fun, and met some of the nicest people around. I'll post some pictures and details when I have time. For now though, there is a GN-1 at KGYI in Sherman, TX. Steve Ruse N6383J - Coppell, TX Quoting _N321TX(at)wmconnect.com_ (mailto:N321TX(at)wmconnect.com) : > Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, > 14, 15 > > _http://www================================================= _ (http://www.swrfi.org/) steve where is hondo located ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
Date: Apr 19, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Numbers of Piets at Brodhead varies from a handful to a bunch. How's that for precision? Seriously, you can count on at least 6 or 7 Pietenpols, and maybe as many as 20. Check out: http://www.avweb.com/news/homeblts/182613-1.html for a good description of the fly-in. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC - "18 hours away from Brodhead by Pietenpol" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Super Secret Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas) How many Pietenpols usually show up at Brodhead? I've just ordered plans to build one and might be a good idea to see a few in person. I'm in middle TN and that might make a nice road trip. On 4/19/05, Steve Ruse wrote: I would love to, but my brother is getting married on the 15th and I better be there or I'll be in trouble. Another great TX fly-in is the Reklaw fly-in in Ocotober. I've seen a Sky-Scout there, but would love to see some more Pietenpols or GN-1s. It is a fun ~2-day camping fly-in, usually around 200 planes on a BIG grass strip in the middle of the piney woods in East Texas (Reklaw, TX). You can camp on site, or there is a shuttle that will take you to a nearby hotel. E-mail me if anyone needs more information. http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID36 3 <http://www..globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID 363> For anyone that is curious, I got my GN-1 home this weekend, a three-day, 820 mile trip! It was a great trip, I had a lot of fun, and met some of the nicest people around. I'll post some pictures and details when I have time. For now though, there is a GN-1 at KGYI in Sherman, TX. Steve Ruse N6383J - Coppell, TX Quoting N321TX(at)wmconnect.com: > Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, > 14, 15 > > http://www <http://www.swrfi.org> <http://www.swrfi.org> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2005
From: Super Secret <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
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From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas)
Date: Apr 19, 2005
Dear SS:...I know of three in progress near Huntsville, AL..Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: Super Secret To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:14 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Southwest Regional Fly In (Texas) How many Pietenpols usually show up at Brodhead? I've just ordered plans to build one and might be a good idea to see a few in person. I'm in middle TN and that might make a nice road trip. On 4/19/05, Steve Ruse wrote: I would love to, but my brother is getting married on the 15th and I better be there or I'll be in trouble. Another great TX fly-in is the Reklaw fly-in in Ocotober. I've seen a Sky-Scout there, but would love to see some more Pietenpols or GN-1s. It is a fun ~2-day camping fly-in, usually around 200 planes on a BIG grass strip in the middle of the piney woods in East Texas (Reklaw, TX). You can camp on site, or there is a shuttle that will take you to a nearby hotel. E-mail me if anyone needs more information. http://www.globalair.com/discussions/georges_hangar/article.asp?msgID363 For anyone that is curious, I got my GN-1 home this weekend, a three-day, 820 mile trip! It was a great trip, I had a lot of fun, and met some of the nicest people around. I'll post some pictures and details when I have time. For now though, there is a GN-1 at KGYI in Sherman, TX. Steve Ruse N6383J - Coppell, TX Quoting N321TX(at)wmconnect.com: > Any Piet/GN-1 builders/flyers plan on making this event in Hondo? May 13, > 14, 15 > > http://www ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 19, 2005
Subject: basswood
has anyone used basswood for the longerons or spars on a piet ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: basswood
Date: Apr 20, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
I don't have my books with wood data here at the office, but I doubt it would be a very good substitute. I've never seen basswood in the lengths you would need for spars or longerons. This I found on the internet Hardwood Identification Center: Physical Properties The wood is light and soft with generally low strength properties and a poor steam-bending classification. I think that would scare me off. Most basswood is used for carving because it is soft with an indistinct grain. It is light, and is commonly used as the core sheets of aircraft grade plywood. It does not bend well, with or without steam. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRichmo9(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: basswood has anyone used basswood for the longerons or spars on a piet ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2005
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest:12 Msgs - 04/19/05
From: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Basswood has considerably lower bending strength than sitka or doug fir. Dick Hartwig >From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: basswood >has anyone used basswood for the longerons or spars on a piet ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Ragwing Piet on ebay
m> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4544080907&category=63722&sspagename=WDVW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 20, 2005
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest:12 Msgs - 04/19/05
In a message dated 4/20/05 3:42:18 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: basswood has anyone used basswood for the longerons or spars on a piet >> I 've used a lot of basswood in my piet, but it's been in plywood form. I can't believe that there would be any problem using basswood for longerons, the design with the added gussets is incrediby strong, but I'd analyze the stresses in the spar as designed before using, probably ending up with an engineered "I" beam. Basswood, from the Linden tree, is lovely to work with. If I hadn't finished my wings, I'd use it for the ribs, etc, since we can get real nice clear wood even out here in Los Angeles. Carl L ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 20, 2005
Subject: basswood
i found some info on basswood its 92% stong as spruce but almost no shock resistance so its out. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2005
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: basswood
Compression strength parallel to grain; Basswood-3800 psi Spruce-----4780 psi D Fir--------5850 psi Basswood is a hardwood and the others are softwoods. ( Doesn't mean it's harder, just that it's leaves fall off.) Tensile( stretching) strength is higher than compression in all woods. In a Piet spar with uniform dimensions top to bottom, compression, being the weaker strength characteristic, is the deciding factor in design and use. Each species has it's own variation in the mix of characteristics. Even though fir is stronger in compression than spruce, it's splitting strength is quite inferior. Ash is known for it's shock absorption, important in hammer handles and baseball bats. Elm is one of the most split resistant woods around, thus it's use for the blocks and sheaves in the sailing ships of yore. I think you will find basswood more brittle and less forgiving than most of the softwoods. Not a characteristic I would want in spars, longerons or ribs. Good carving wood though. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: basswood i found some info on basswood its 92% stong as spruce but almost no shock resistance so its out. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2005
From: Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: wing incidence
Y'all have me worried with this discusion. I have "racked " my stock Howard Henderson cabanes back to get my aircraft and my weight in harmony. I have the wing where I want it, having moved it 3" aft. Will this "racking" change the incidence of the wing? (Here, I was thinking that after I did the lift strut wires, that I was ready to fly her............) --- Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > Mr. Smart-Alec (aka, "Jim Markle") wrote- > > >the airfoil's chord line is tilted up from a line > that would be > >drawn between these two holes.....so I believe you > would add > >that 1.99 to the airfoil's actual (and tilted up) > angle of incidence... > > Well of course you would. I knew that, but didn't > want to go over > everybody's head with a bunch of engineer talk and > trigonometry ;o) I > should have used the proper terminology and all > that. But both you and DJ > confirmed what I was finding... that the difference > in cabane length leads > to about a 2 degree incidence change to a line drawn > across the bottom (or > top) of the two wing spars. What I was trying to > get out of my head was the > 3 degrees that I'd read somewhere, because that > isn't what you get with a 1" > cabane strut length difference. > > Thanks, gents. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > Larry Nelson Springfield, MO Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH 1963 GMC 4106-1618 SV/ Spirit of America ARS WB0JOT ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: wing incidence
Date: Apr 21, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
Moving the wing aft will very slightly increase the angle of incidence. I just layed it out in AutoCAD and found that with a 22" front cabane and a 21" rear cabane, moving the wing 3" aft will increase the angle of incidence by 0.015 degrees, or about 0.06%. I don't think I would worry about that :-) If your cabanes are longer than that, the effect is even less. Far more important to get the CG where it belongs. Jack Phillips Y'all have me worried with this discusion. I have "racked " my stock Howard Henderson cabanes back to get my aircraft and my weight in harmony. I have the wing where I want it, having moved it 3" aft. Will this "racking" change the incidence of the wing? (Here, I was thinking that after I did the lift strut wires, that I was ready to fly her............) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2005
From: "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: basswood
As an interesting (to some maybe) extra bit of Basswood trivia (this from a long-time bass guitar player), Basswood, ironically, is an abysmal wood to use to build bass guitars. It soaks up the low frequency fundamentals and mutes the higher frequencies, rendering a very nasal mid-range-ish tone with little sustain. Mostly it's used on the really cheap Korean instruments, because it's cheaper, easy to work and costs less to ship due to its light weight. I don't recall ever seeing an acoustic guitar built out of Basswood either, while Sitka Spruce is a prime acoustic guitar building wood. Not to sure how exactly my post relates to building a Piet, other than I'm pretty sure one built out of Spruce will sound better than one built out of Basswood... John (who plays a bass made of Cocobolo, Mahogany, Maple and Purpleheart, but hasn't built his Piet yet) John Ford john(at)indstate.edu 812-237-8542 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 21, 2005
Subject: Re: basswood
Basswood was the choice of piano manufactories for the keyboards. Light and strong. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 22, 2005
Subject: NX registration?
How does one apply for the NX registration number? I found a number that was available and sent off my paperwork with a check, and it came back from the FAA with a form letter stating NX isn't available. Is something you "negotiate" with the FSDO when they do the final paperwork? Sterling 5TA6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: NX registration?
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com>
The FAA will not issue an NX number. What you do is apply for a normal registration number (custom, if you wish and add the extra $10), then when you apply the numbers you add the X. Be prepared to argue with your inspector and quote the appropriate regs (I've got them spmewhere if you need them). It also helps to have photos of other Pietenpols with NX numbers. Whenever you deal with the FAA, just give them the regular N number, without the X because that is what is actually listed in the registration. My inspector didn't put up a fuss at all, but he was pretty sharp BTW, in order to see what numbers are taken or reserved, check out this website: http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*64406683!_h-www.landings.com/_la ndings/pages/search/search_nnr.html Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N321TX(at)wmconnect.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX registration? How does one apply for the NX registration number? I found a number that was available and sent off my paperwork with a check, and it came back from the FAA with a form letter stating NX isn't available. Is something you "negotiate" with the FSDO when they do the final paperwork? Sterling 5TA6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: NX registration?
Date: Apr 22, 2005
no, you don't ask for it, just like you don't ask for the "N". Get your number and put NX ahead of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com<mailto:N321TX(at)wmconnect.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX registration? How does one apply for the NX registration number? I found a number that was available and sent off my paperwork with a check, and it came back from the FAA with a form letter stating NX isn't available. Is something you "negotiate" with the FSDO when they do the final paperwork? Sterling 5TA6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: Kevin Holcomb <ksholcomb(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: NX registration?
DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: NX is an aircraft marking
.net> Sterling-- the X in your NX number like the guys have said it just a part of your aircraft markings and is not recognized on your paperwork. The X is cool in that when using it you do not have to put that big EXPERIMENTAL sign on/in the airplane ! The X is a sufficient marking to denote that it is an experimental design of more than 30 years in age. I'm building a replica of an old aircraft and I would like to use one of the old style registration numbers (e.g. NC1234 or NX1234). Can I do this? Yes. The aircraft must be operated as an amateur-built or exhibition aircraft and must have the same external appearance as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago. The registration markings must be at least 2 inches high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of the Roman capital letter "N" followed by the symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft: C for standard R for restricted L for limited, or X for experimental followed by the US registration number of the aircraft. (Even if the aircraft is eligible to display the old style markings, the Registration Certificate and all FAA references to the N number will omit the C, R, L, or X from the N number). If you are trying to build an exact replica of an old aircraft, you can even use the old registration number if it had been deactivated. http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Registering%20Your%20Homebuilt.html Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Steve R. changing markings--excellent
.net><30146296.1114198536519.JavaMail.root(at)wamui03.slb.atl.earthlink. net> Steve-- you are exactly right about being able to remove your big EXPERIMENTAL placard and replacing it with and X in your N number markings on the plane. I did that on another plane---you don't have to tell the FAA or anyone else----it is merely a marking that sez the same thing as the full word. Very neat reg that lots don't take advantage of. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Steve's trip--tell us more !
96.1114198536519.JavaMail.root(at)wamui03.slb.atl.earthlink. net><30146296.111 4198536519.JavaMail.root(at)wamui03.slb.atl.earthlink. net><5 .1.1.5.2.2005042 2162426.0217fb08(at)popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Steve-- that is great that you got the plane. Tell us how your x-country was and how she flies !!!!!! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hill" <jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: extended fuselage question
Date: Apr 22, 2005
DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: basswood
> John (who plays a bass made of Cocobolo, Mahogany, Maple and > Purpleheart, but hasn't built his Piet yet) > Was watching the guy at the prop carving booth at SNF and he was saying that a prop can be made of layers of most any hardwood including Purpleheart. Imagine a prop made of Cocobolo, Maple and Purpleheart. -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2005
From: "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: basswood
That would be one very attractive and extremely expensive prop! John Ford john(at)indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> at7000ft(at)gmail.com Friday, April 22, 2005 5:53:42 PM >>> > John (who plays a bass made of Cocobolo, Mahogany, Maple and > Purpleheart, but hasn't built his Piet yet) > Was watching the guy at the prop carving booth at SNF and he was saying that a prop can be made of layers of most any hardwood including Purpleheart. Imagine a prop made of Cocobolo, Maple and Purpleheart. -- Rick Holland ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2005
From: AVIATION GROUP <aviationgrp(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: NX registration?
AVIATION News is to view & share your valuable comments and the latest trends and happenings in the aviation industry. Please click on the attached yahoo group link site to share & receive the updates on the latest happenings, business ventures, business opportunities, Air Shows and Exhibitions, New Aircraft releases, and certifications, Career news, Appointments etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVIATION-NEWS/ Please take few moments recommend us to your near & dears in the industry. We welcome your valuable comments and updates. "Phillips, Jack" wrote: The FAA will not issue an NX number. What you do is apply for a normal registration number (custom, if you wish and add the extra $10), then when you apply the numbers you add the X. Be prepared to argue with your inspector and quote the appropriate regs (Ive got them spmewhere if you need them). It also helps to have photos of other Pietenpols with NX numbers. Whenever you deal with the FAA, just give them the regular N number, without the X because that is what is actually listed in the registration. My inspector didnt put up a fuss at all, but he was pretty sharp BTW, in order to see what numbers are taken or reserved, check out this website: http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*64406683!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search/search_nnr.html Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N321TX(at)wmconnect.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: NX registration? How does one apply for the NX registration number? I found a number that was available and sent off my paperwork with a check, and it came back from the FAA with a form letter stating NX isn't available. Is something you "negotiate" with the FSDO when they do the final paperwork? Sterling 5TA6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 23, 2005
Subject: Elevator and Rudder Control Horns
Pieters, Would like your thoughts and input on the following situation. Am presently rigging my elevators and rudder. On the horn plans the attach holes are 3 1/2 in from center for the elevator and 5 in from center on the rudder. This requires an abnormal movement, in my opinion, on the pedals. I have found that 3 1/2 to 4 in on the rudder horn holes from center to be sufficient. I had other Pieters comment that it was impossible to get enough rudder to control the machine in strong crosswind landings and TO. Nathan Moss felt after flying 41CC for about 8 hours it could do with less throw on all the controls, stick and pedal movement. He said it was not like flying a Waco UPF-7.where the pilot needed to be 6ft 6 to fully activate the pedals. Will probably set the pedal ( rudder bar ) for 2 in forward and 2 in aft of center and drill the attach holes for control cables 4 in from center on the rudder horn. Would appreciate your comments other than the usual "Don't change the plans" Corky and Nathan Moss ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2005
From: santiago morete <moretesantiago(at)yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Turnbuckles
I'm trying to find cheap turnbuckles (very difficult, since I live in Argentina) .Can somebody tell me if B&B has e-mail address and if they send outside the USA? Thank you very much. Santiago Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam gratis! Abr tu cuenta ya! - http://correo.yahoo.com.ar ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben Charvet" <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Turnbuckles
Date: Apr 23, 2005
Hi Santiago, I stopped in the B&B booth at Sun-N-Fun and asked if they had a website. Unfortunately they only have the phone number 913-884-5930. I guess you could call them and ask about shipping to Argentina. Good Luck! Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: santiago morete To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 7:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles I'm trying to find cheap turnbuckles (very difficult, since I live in Argentina) .Can somebody tell me if B&B has e-mail address and if they send outside the USA? Thank you very much. Santiago __________________________________________________ Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam =A1gratis! =A1Abr=ED tu cuenta ya! - http://correo.yahoo.com.ar ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 24, 2005
Subject: Re: Elevator and Rudder Control Horns
Corky and Nathan, Nathan commented that the plans set up felt like an abnormal amount of movement. I'm curious - What did he mean by this ? During the landing and take off, it is completely normal to be dancing on the rudder. For the rudder, it seems he meant it needed more deflection of the control surface with the same amount of movement of the rudder bar. This is what you will get, if you move the holes on the horn from 5" outboard of the hinge, to 3 1/2 to 4" outboard of the hinge. A change in distance of 1 to 1 1/2 on the rudder horn, is a considerable amount. The trade off will be a very sensitive rudder in cruise flight. You'll be constantly chasing the ball back and forth. I believe you have rudder pedals, as opposed to the rudder bar. Do you already have the point on the rudder pedal located ? You can also alter this ratio with that attach point. Before you drill the holes, I would suggest you somehow clamp the cables in the anticipated position, and carefully try it out while sitting in the cockpit. Just remember to place the rudder stops to keep the rudder from touching the flippers (elevators). My own experience with well over 200 hours in my Piet, is that I have NEVER ran out of rudder authority. When entering a turn, I lead the turn with a tiny bit of rudder, which helps cooridinate the turn. Adverse Yaw is a way of life with vintage designs. Even in my cross country flights, it is seldom that I have to make landings in severe crosswinds. There is almost always a place to put 'er down with less than a 10 kt crosswind component. If need be, I land a little bit diagonally on the runway, while keeping the upwind wing low, and touching down on the upwind wheel. The rule of thumb for maximum crosswind component is 25% of the stall speed. If it is more than a 10 kt crosswind component, you don't have any business out there in those conditions. As for pitch control, the power setting is an effective pitch control due to the penduleum effect. This becomes even more pronounced, with the longer cabane struts. In my opinion, I have found harmony with all the flight control surfaces, and wouldn't change a thing. I did about 6 or 8 landings this evening, with about 15 to 18 down the runway. By dragging the tail in before the mains touch, is the only way I can get a decent full stall landing. I didn't have to do that when I just had a tail SKID back there. With a tail wheel back there, it raises the tail to a point where the wing is not done flying yet, in the 3 point attitude, and a couple of bounces are in order. In windy crosswind conditions, a wheel landing is preferred. I have also found a wheel landing is preferred when I have a passenger on board, or when landing on a hard surface runway. Chuck G. enjoying the challenges of the wind, however, I refuse to fly if a tornado is near by... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2005
From: clawler(at)ptd.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest:5 Msgs - 04/23/05
Corky, I agree with Chuck. The plans call for the correct rudder horn size. We have about 500hrs on our Piet and it is a blast to slip. There is plenty of rudder to get it to come down at a 30 degree angle. And more rudder is available for landing than my skill level will allow me to use. The old adage about sticking to the plans makes sense here. Craig Lawler NX899CL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Steve's trip--tell us more !
Date: Apr 24, 2005
Mike, Sorry I missed your request for pictures, I missed a few messages that day. Here are the pictures DJ took, and the link below shows pictures I took on a COLD (-3*F) Indiana morning (when you are from TX, that is WAY too cold). http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/GN1 http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2004Dec27%20-%20GN1/ I'm working (OK I still need to start) on a page that will have all of my "trip stories" and pictures, maybe I can get that done tonight. It was a great trip, and I met some of the nicest people you could ever meet. I spent nearly 4hrs in my new plane yesterday, and I'm going back this afternoon to give some rides to friends. I'm having a great time if you can't tell! Steve Ruse Coppell, TX (DFW) N6383J -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steve's trip--tell us more ! Steve-- that is great that you got the plane. Tell us how your x-country was and how she flies !!!!!! Mike C. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 24, 2005
Subject: Re: Elevator and Rudder Control Horns
In a message dated 4/24/05 12:35:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Rcaprd(at)aol.com writes: Corky and Nathan, Nathan commented that the plans set up felt like an abnormal amount of movement. I'm curious - What did he mean by this ? During the landing and take off, it is completely normal to be dancing on the rudder. For the rudder, it seems he meant it needed more deflection of the control surface with the same amount of movement of the rudder bar. This is what you will get, if you move the holes on the horn from 5" outboard of the hinge, to 3 1/2 to 4" outboard of the hinge. A change in distance of 1 to 1 1/2 on the rudder horn, is a considerable amount. The trade off will be a very sensitive rudder in cruise flight. You'll be constantly chasing the ball back and forth. I believe you have rudder pedals, as opposed to the rudder bar. Do you already have the point on the rudder pedal located ? You can also alter this ratio with that attach point. Before you drill the holes, I would suggest you somehow clamp the cables in the anticipated position, and carefully try it out while sitting in the cockpit. Just remember to place the rudder stops to keep the rudder from touching the flippers (elevators). My own experience with well over 200 hours in my Piet, is that I have NEVER ran out of rudder authority. When entering a turn, I lead the turn with a tiny bit of rudder, which helps cooridinate the turn. Adverse Yaw is a way of life with vintage designs. Even in my cross country flights, it is seldom that I have to make landings in severe crosswinds. There is almost always a place to put 'er down with less than a 10 kt crosswind component. If need be, I land a little bit diagonally on the runway, while keeping the upwind wing low, and touching down on the upwind wheel. The rule of thumb for maximum crosswind component is 25% of the stall speed. If it is more than a 10 kt crosswind component, you don't have any business out there in those conditions. As for pitch control, the power setting is an effective pitch control due to the penduleum effect. This becomes even more pronounced, with the longer cabane struts. In my opinion, I have found harmony with all the flight control surfaces, and wouldn't change a thing. I did about 6 or 8 landings this evening, with about 15 to 18 down the runway. By dragging the tail in before the mains touch, is the only way I can get a decent full stall landing. I didn't have to do that when I just had a tail SKID back there. With a tail wheel back there, it raises the tail to a point where the wing is not done flying yet, in the 3 point attitude, and a couple of bounces are in order. In windy crosswind conditions, a wheel landing is preferred. I have also found a wheel landing is preferred when I have a passenger on board, or when landing on a hard surface runway. Chuck G. enjoying the challenges of the wind, however, I refuse to fly if a tornado is near by... amen on the tornado chuck i live in oklahoma tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 23, 2005
Subject: saw motor
7.50 BARRACUDA_HEADER_FP56 RBL: Blacklist bl.spamcop [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?64.12.137.9>] john i went by the swapmeet in kellyville and got 1 hp motor for the saw for 10 bucks .it works great the 5 hp motor would have been way to much.the name of that plane is the pacemaker ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2005
From: clawler(at)ptd.net
Subject: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
I want to make up and airspeed indicator to mount out on the wing strut. The body of the unit is no big deal, but I can't find a spring. Do any of you have any suggestions. Here is a photo of what I want to do. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 24, 2005
It kind of looks like a farm implement spring. ----- Original Message ----- From: <clawler(at)ptd.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hare and Turtle Airspeed > I want to make up and airspeed indicator to mount out on the wing > strut. The body of the unit is no big deal, but I can't find a spring. > Do any of you have any suggestions. Here is a photo of what I want to > do. ---- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike McCarty" <mmccarty(at)zianet.com>
Subject: Re: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 24, 2005
There is information available on the web for making your own springs. Do a Google search for "making springs" and you will come up with several tutorials. A quick glance through one showed winding music wire around a mandrel and then stress relieving it in a 500 deg oven for an hour or so. http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/springs.html -Mike McCarty ----- Original Message ----- From: clawler(at)ptd.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hare and Turtle Airspeed >I want to make up and airspeed indicator to mount out on the wing > strut. The body of the unit is no big deal, but I can't find a spring. > Do any of you have any suggestions. Here is a photo of what I want to > do. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 24, 2005
I agree with Doug. Make up your own using 1/16 or 3/32 wire. 3 wraps around a 1" mandrel and make the ends however you like. Greg Cardinal > "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" > > Not sure if it is want you want, see what > others say, but Piano wire that > you get in Hobby stores can be bent in many > configurations and maintain its > springy-ness... > > Doug Blackburn. > > > >>The body of the unit is no big deal, but I >>can't find a spring. >> Do any of you have any suggestions. Here >> is a photo of what I want to >> do. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 24, 2005
Subject: Re: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Craig, A few months ago, I posted a detailed description, complete with all the measurements, of the Johnson Airspeed indicator. I thought I saved it on my computer, but I can't find it. I think if you would search the archives, you will find it there. Chuck G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 24, 2005
The vane-type airspeed indicator in the picture is a DeHavilland type that was used on Gypsy Moths and Tiger Moths. Using one of these as a pattern, I made a copy for my Pietenpol years ago and marked the scale with reference to the ASI in the cockpit. I had difficulty matching the wire type and diameter and used drag/antidrag wire from a J-3 Cub wing to make the spring. It is not as hard as piano wire, but is sufficiently springy for the purpose. Since it was a bit stiffer (slightly larger diameter) than the wire on the DH "instrument", I had to make a larger vane to get enough travel over the scale. Marks (no numbers) were initially placed on the scale and the position of the pointer was noted during flight, using these marks for reference. Then the scale marking was done, complete with numbers similar to those in the photo. Today, it is mounted on the left front interplane strut of my Sperry Messenger replica and has proved to be a reliable device, always in close agreement with the ASI on the instrument panel. Cheers, Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta, Canada) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Johnson Airspeed Indicator
Date: Apr 25, 2005
>From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Johnson Airspeed Indicator >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:05:12 -0600 > >Here's a (small) picture..... > >----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd(at)aol.com> >To: >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:47 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Johnson Airspeed Indicator > > >> >>In a message dated 12/17/04 10:41:39 AM Central Standard Time, >>wacopitts(at)yahoo.com writes: >> >><< Clif, is that a brass brazing rod that you used for a spring? >> >> >>Not to jump in here, but let me try to describe the Johnson ASI. It uses >>a >>.047" music wire, with 2 1/2 coils, and has a leg that is bent >>perpendicular to >>lock the coil from rotating, and is inserted into the back plate. The >>coil >>is 3/4" in diameter, and is spaced off the backing plate with a threaded >>thru >>bushing that is 3/8" long. From the center of the coil, to the tip of the >>pointer, is 7". The bushing that is in the center of the coil is 3/8" >>diameter >>and is about 3/32" long. The bolt is about a #6, and on each side of the >>coil >>is a plastic washer that is 7/8" O.D. The coil and pivot point is covered >>with >>a molded plastic teardrop shape fairing, and has a slot cut for the >>pointer >>to travel in. The sweep of the arc is 70. The backing plate with the >>indicator markings is .040 aluminum, probably 2024. The numbers are 20 >>thru 90 mph. >>The angle plate that the relative wind pushes against is 1 1/4" X 2 1/8" X >>.030" thick, with the pointer is on the 3/8" leg of this angle, which is >>next to >>the backing plate. To attach the music wire to the angle plate, it has a >>small aluminum block that measures 1/4" X 1/4" X 3/4". The .040" wire is >>drilled >>thru length wise, and has two #2 (or smaller) set screws to secure the >>plate, >>wire, and block. >> >>Chuck G. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Airspeed ind.
Date: Apr 25, 2005
Welll I forwarded a detailed message from Jim Markle that I had saved a while back but forgot to put a subject line on it..It gives a detailed description of how to make the spring...Hope it's of some help...Ed Do Not Archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Frank Metcalfe" <fmetcalf(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 25, 2005
Use the wire from a piano hinge. It is strong and will make a great spring. This is what P.F. Beck used and it works great. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of clawler(at)ptd.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hare and Turtle Airspeed I want to make up and airspeed indicator to mount out on the wing strut. The body of the unit is no big deal, but I can't find a spring. Do any of you have any suggestions. Here is a photo of what I want to do. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Frank Metcalfe" <fmetcalf(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 25, 2005
Here is a picture of P.F. Becks in operation. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of clawler(at)ptd.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hare and Turtle Airspeed I want to make up and airspeed indicator to mount out on the wing strut. The body of the unit is no big deal, but I can't find a spring. Do any of you have any suggestions. Here is a photo of what I want to do. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
<000c01c5494a$534b52a0$f23032cc@CPQ29466173462>
Subject: Re: Hare and Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 25, 2005
I don't get it. I have a dog named Turtle and three bunny rabbits, so I figured this would be the ideal way to get the whole family involved in the airplane stuff. I tried gluing the dog to a wire and hanging her outside the car, but at all speeds between 20 and 80mph where this thing's supposed to work, she kept wiggling and carrying on so much that I just couldn't get any good readings. The rabbits were even worse, their ears just flopped so much at 60mph that the instrument almost blew itself apart. Now neither the dog nor the rabbits will have anything to do with me. Do I need a real turtle and a genuine hare for this contraption? Could there be something else that I'm doing wrong? Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
<000c01c5494a$534b52a0$f23032cc@CPQ29466173462> <003101c54a0a$009154e0$ff632141@manticore> <a05210603be93683e3f03@[4.225.228.0]>
Subject: Re: Wild Hare and Post Turtle Airspeed
Date: Apr 26, 2005
Had to look up what a "post turtle" was...there's a term that I'm sure will come in handy in the future! -Mike Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ > I think you need what they call down in Texas a "Post Turtle". ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: enclosed cockpit piet?
Date: Apr 26, 2005
There have been some canopy installations on planes like the Tiger Moth that haven't looked half bad... here's a couple of photos of a Tigermoth and an Avro Avian. I always wondered if someone would adapt the idea (properly) to a Piet. I think that if it was done well, it wouldn't look half bad. Ideally you'd be able to remove everything but the windshield in 5-10 minutes for traditional open-cockpit flying. Maybe a mechanism similar to the quick-release system used on many acro planes... except that the pins wouldn't be there for quick-release in an emergency, but to allow you to pop the glass off quickly for open-air flying. (Of course, here in Florida this stuff is not so much of an issue as for you guys up north... maybe I'll do a canopy and then use it to keep the air conditioning inside :) -M Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ > some photos of a Romanian built GN-1 that was modified to incorporate a cabin ________________________________________________________________________________ ETAtAhRG2Ms8/8LdBUOvpMIjhY6dd0SXSQIVAJbRGZ2qeBkilh8lmeJ1MgXwacr9
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Apr 26, 2005
Subject: Re: enclosed cockpit piet?
Mike, The problem is adding weight. From all I have read, the Piet doesn't tollerate adding weight, even if you up the h.p. The flying qualities will go down. Leon S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: enclosed cockpit piet?
Date: Apr 27, 2005
> Mike, The problem is adding weight. From all I have read, the Piet doesn't tollerate adding weight Actually, this photo of an Acey-Deucy with a canopy is the photo I was trying to find yesterday. The caption says that top speed increased by 8mph. This plane is very much like a Piet in size and layout. In my opinion, this is a very nice-looking installation, it's (arguably) prettier than the traditional Acey-Deucy, in a way. Certainly makes it unique-looking if nothing else. Note that this plane also has a front cockpit side door. There may also be some benefit to a canopy like this, in that it would likely smooth out the airflow to the tail a tad... may lead to slightly improved tail surface effectiveness, perhaps, and maybe even a slight increase in lift or climb rate (I suspect this effect would be minor though.) I would think that this could be done without a large amount of weight gain. Since you're still in the neighborhood of 90-100 mph, there really is no need for a thick, heavy, bird strike-proof canopy, is there? Very thin (1/8 inch) lexan on a thin aluminum frame should do nicely. You would probably want to use something slightly thicker for the windshield, but I would think that 1/4 inch plexiglas or lexan would still be plenty strong and not weigh


March 28, 2005 - April 27, 2005

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ek