Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ep
August 03, 2005 - August 16, 2005
> >#105 Insignia White, Star Insignias
> >#190 Tennessee Red, "
> >#176 Insignia Blue, "
>
> ...and pictures are available at
> http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html if you want to see how it
> turned out. As a bit of additional trivia, I have since discovered that
the
> #139 Federal Yellow is also referred to as Federal HIGHWAY Yellow, and is
> the color that is used to paint those stripes that you see on every
> interstate highway in the country.
>
> One more piece of trivia, but it's Piet related: there is a new
> Oshkosh/Brodhead update on William Wynne's website,
> http://www.flycorvair.com , including pictures of "The Last Original", Mr.
> Pietenpol's personal Corvair-powered Piet.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | wires in the sky scout wings |
John,
The wires in the sky scout wings were in place so that interference between the
ribs
and the drag/antidrag wires could be determined prior to glueing of the
ribs. If you noticed, the rib spacing varied on the Sky Scout wings to keep
the wires from coming in contact with the ribs. Greg and I measured them
and they were off as much as an inch.
If the line made by connecting the root ends of the spars is held normal to
the spar major axis, and the ribs are glued parallel to this line, then you
will find when it is time to trammel, it will be a non issue. Those
builders that glue their wings together without controlling the front and
rear spar positions from the beginning will find trammelling to be
challenging
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Elevator Trim Tab |
Pieters,
Am boxing in my starboard elevator,ala 7AC, for an adjustable trim tab. Has
anyone seen or heard of this being done on a Piet? For you engineering types,
How many sq in would it require to be effective? My design is 3 X 16. In
addition I will feather all trailing edges with balsa for rudder and elevators.
My I hear any objections or suggestions both positive and positive.
Corky in La making airplane noises while Isabelle whistles Dixie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Assembly |
John,
The square will not be able to be used with the ribs in place. Secure a
four foot 2 x 8 or so board upright on your table at the root end normal to
the long axis of the spars. Secure two uprights to this board making a slot
to capture one of the spars' root end. Use a little bit of trig to
determine the position of that spar's tip at the wingtip end so that the
spar is normal to the root board. Secure two more pieces of wood to the
table, making a slot for the spar at the tip end. By pushing both spars
against the root board and dropping the spar into the slot at the tip will
ensure a glue up of a true wing.
The wing should be glued true. The trammelling is to ensure the wires don't
pull it OUT of true.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
I made up a square long enough to span the width between the spars and
normal to one spar to ensure my spar ends are lined up well. When I ran
the temp drag wires, I found that the wire touches three rib members, so
I am laminating another piece of 1/4 x 1/2" member in those locations,
and will trim the interfering member. I saw this done at Oshkosh last
week, and it looked like a clean solution. Thanks again, this is
really good discussion. I'm in Greenville, Wisconsin (next to
Appleton).
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Bobka [mailto:sbobka(at)charter.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
I think that the wires were in place so that interference between the
ribs
and the drag/antidrag wires could be determined prior to glueing of the
ribs. If you noticed, the rib spacing varied on the Sky Scout wings to
keep
the wires from coming in contact with the ribs. Greg and I measured
them
and they were off as much as an inch.
If the line made by connecting the root ends of the spars is held normal
to
the spar major axis, and the ribs are glued parallel to this line, then
you
will find when it is time to trammel, it will be a non issue. Those
builders that glue their wings together without controlling the front
and
rear spar positions from the beginning will find trammelling to be
challenging
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
Thank you Christian,
I did not see the sanding board, but that makes good sense to use one.
I did notice that Denny (the guy working on the one piece Sky Scout
wing) had used temporary diagonal wires to square the wing, then
loosened the wires (I assume) after the ribs were glued in place. I've
just been stuck for while at this point, and I recently found the
Matronics site, and moved back to Wisconsin where I can now visit
Brodhead and make good progress on my Piet. It sounds like as long as
the wing is square, and how I want it, I can glue the ribs. Thank you
again.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christian Bobka
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
If you correctly position your spars parallel and the markoffs for the
rib
positions on the front and rear spars are accurately held in a line
normal
to the spars, then tweaking during tramelling should be at a minimum and
it
is safe to glue the vertical to the spar from the outset. Importantly,
it
is also necessary to have all the capstrip in the same plane. You don't
want one rib a little high on the spar and the next one a little low as
this
will present an uneven surface for the fabric and the leading edge
plywood
and will be unsightly.
Those at Brodhead should have noticed the 4-6 foot long sanding boards
that
were being used to "level" the Sky Scout wing capstrips in the Pietenpol
hangar on the front row, west end.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
>
> glue the vertical piece to the spar. The load is carried in shear
which
is
> the best for glue.
>
> chris
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:34 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
>
>
> >
> > I would like to learn more about wing assembly. I have my ribs laid
out
> > on the spars with correct spacing, little wedges in place on each
rib,
> > wing tip bow bolted on, and temporary diagonal guide wires inside
the
> > wing with turnbuckles. Everything is square. I believe my next step
is
> > to glue the ribs to the spars. What is the best method to do this?
Do
> > you guys simply move one rib at a time, add some glue, and slide it
back
> > into place? What part of the rib gets glued? The top and bottom
only,
> > or the vertical member as well? Any thoughts on next steps? And
then
> > after the rib gluing, I believe I'll need to glue up the aileron
parts,
> > filler strips and leading edge....?
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim Tab |
Corky,
Sounds like a good size. How will you actuate it?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:47 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Trim Tab
Pieters,
Am boxing in my starboard elevator,ala 7AC, for an adjustable trim tab. Has anyone
seen or heard of this being done on a Piet? For you engineering types, How
many sq in would it require to be effective? My design is 3 X 16. In addition
I will feather all trailing edges with balsa for rudder and elevators.
My I hear any objections or suggestions both positive and positive.
Corky in La making airplane noises while Isabelle whistles Dixie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim Tab |
Will be activated with a small lever in a quadrant on the right side, rear
cockpit with bottom pivot. Control wire connected above pivot positioned as
travel needed on trim arm. Forward Nose down etc.Activated cable is .051 wire in
vinyl conduit. Hope you get this explanation. Most of the run will be
outside of fuse under fabric. Seems simple enough.
Felt strongly that a Piet needed a trim mechanism as the weights of
different pilots, and a forward fuel tank will keep the pilot busy trimmimg. Also,
when you chop throttle for landing it might be possible to throw that trim back
and reduce the pressure on the stick like the old 7 AC did.
Corky in La just before his afternoon nap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nav8799h(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Pietenpol for Sale |
Folks,
I have been a follower of this list for 3-1/2 years while building my
Pietenpol. It is now complete and the airworthiness inspection is done.
Unfortunately, my flying partner and good friend in the project has lost his eyesight
and this has pretty much taken a lot of the enjoyment out of the plane.
Therefore, I am putting the plane up for sale. It is a long fuselage, 3
piece wing, Sitka spruce ship with a C-85. If interested, contact me and I can
send pictures or provide additional information.
Thanks
Lou Wither
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Elevator Trim Tab |
| From: | "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Corky,
How will the wire transition from the stab to the elevator? Through the
spar? On my RV8 I utilized a servo, which was much lighter and (the
wire) was more flexible (between the stab and elevator)
Jack T
Des Moines
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Trim Tab
Will be activated with a small lever in a quadrant on the right side,
rear cockpit with bottom pivot. Control wire connected above pivot
positioned as travel needed on trim arm. Forward Nose down etc.Activated
cable is .051 wire in vinyl conduit. Hope you get this explanation. Most
of the run will be outside of fuse under fabric. Seems simple enough.
Felt strongly that a Piet needed a trim mechanism as the weights of
different pilots, and a forward fuel tank will keep the pilot busy
trimmimg. Also, when you chop throttle for landing it might be possible
to throw that trim back and reduce the pressure on the stick like the
old 7 AC did.
Corky in La just before his afternoon nap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic unmanned
helicopter/camera rig.
the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well. this
damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's fun and
the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing ought to
provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
DJ Vegh
www.azchoppercam.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
FILETIME=[7B8081C0:01C59867]
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Bobka [mailto:sbobka(at)charter.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
can you repost to the peitenpol matronics list so that all can share?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
I made up a square long enough to span the width between the spars and
normal to one spar to ensure my spar ends are lined up well. When I ran
the temp drag wires, I found that the wire touches three rib members, so
I am laminating another piece of 1/4 x 1/2" member in those locations,
and will trim the interfering member. I saw this done at Oshkosh last
week, and it looked like a clean solution. Thanks again, this is
really good discussion. I'm in Greenville, Wisconsin (next to
Appleton).
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Bobka [mailto:sbobka(at)charter.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
I think that the wires were in place so that interference between the
ribs
and the drag/antidrag wires could be determined prior to glueing of the
ribs. If you noticed, the rib spacing varied on the Sky Scout wings to
keep
the wires from coming in contact with the ribs. Greg and I measured
them
and they were off as much as an inch.
If the line made by connecting the root ends of the spars is held normal
to
the spar major axis, and the ribs are glued parallel to this line, then
you
will find when it is time to trammel, it will be a non issue. Those
builders that glue their wings together without controlling the front
and
rear spar positions from the beginning will find trammelling to be
challenging
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
Thank you Christian,
I did not see the sanding board, but that makes good sense to use one.
I did notice that Denny (the guy working on the one piece Sky Scout
wing) had used temporary diagonal wires to square the wing, then
loosened the wires (I assume) after the ribs were glued in place. I've
just been stuck for while at this point, and I recently found the
Matronics site, and moved back to Wisconsin where I can now visit
Brodhead and make good progress on my Piet. It sounds like as long as
the wing is square, and how I want it, I can glue the ribs. Thank you
again.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christian Bobka
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
If you correctly position your spars parallel and the markoffs for the
rib
positions on the front and rear spars are accurately held in a line
normal
to the spars, then tweaking during tramelling should be at a minimum and
it
is safe to glue the vertical to the spar from the outset. Importantly,
it
is also necessary to have all the capstrip in the same plane. You don't
want one rib a little high on the spar and the next one a little low as
this
will present an uneven surface for the fabric and the leading edge
plywood
and will be unsightly.
Those at Brodhead should have noticed the 4-6 foot long sanding boards
that
were being used to "level" the Sky Scout wing capstrips in the Pietenpol
hangar on the front row, west end.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
>
> glue the vertical piece to the spar. The load is carried in shear
which
is
> the best for glue.
>
> chris
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:34 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Assembly
>
>
> >
> > I would like to learn more about wing assembly. I have my ribs laid
out
> > on the spars with correct spacing, little wedges in place on each
rib,
> > wing tip bow bolted on, and temporary diagonal guide wires inside
the
> > wing with turnbuckles. Everything is square. I believe my next step
is
> > to glue the ribs to the spars. What is the best method to do this?
Do
> > you guys simply move one rib at a time, add some glue, and slide it
back
> > into place? What part of the rib gets glued? The top and bottom
only,
> > or the vertical member as well? Any thoughts on next steps? And
then
> > after the rib gluing, I believe I'll need to glue up the aileron
parts,
> > filler strips and leading edge....?
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim Tab |
Secure the housing on the stab and under fair leads along or on top of the
elevator run the housing and connecting the control wire to trim tab arm, like
carb heat arm. Housing will be free to move under the fair leads as the
elevators are rotated as these vinyl housings are extremely flexible
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | elevator trim tab |
The way Corky is describing elevator trim is exactly the way it's shown in
Tony Bingelis' book. Actually, he shows three different trim setups but one
uses a push-pull Bowden cable and single bellcrank on the trim tab and the
other two are variations that use separate bellcranks for push and for pull.
Seems fairly straightforward to me, except the bit about how and where to
transition the cable out of the fuselage into the control surface and out
the fabric to the bellcrank.
No idea "how much is enough" though. Cut and try?
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
DJ,
Cool stuff! and nice video!
Guess you don't hear down there much sayings like,,,"Follow the ridge"
Wow, it's flat like a pancake.
you're in Texas, right?
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Vegh
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress
just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic unmanned
helicopter/camera rig.
the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well.
this damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's fun
and the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing ought
to provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
DJ Vegh
www.azchoppercam.com
________________________________________________________________________________
;
| From: | Mike Volckmann <mike_cfi(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
DJ,
Cool video.
Mike
DJ Vegh wrote:
just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic unmanned
helicopter/camera rig.
the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well. this
damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's fun and
the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing ought to
provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
DJ Vegh
www.azchoppercam.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
Who is the guy with the white tshirt in the video? Why do you not show any landings.....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Volckmann
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress
DJ,
Cool video.
Mike
DJ Vegh wrote:
just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic unmanned
helicopter/camera rig.
the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well.
this damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's fun
and the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing ought
to provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
DJ Vegh
www.azchoppercam.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
the guy in the white shirt? yours truly ;) (see the controller in my hand?)
No landings shown cause landings are a non-event.... what counts in the video
biz is the stability of the shot in motion. I have a Kenyon Labs gyro attached
to a camera mount that I helped design. The gyro has 2 weights that spin at
22K rpm. Much like a heading indicator. It;s smazing the power the gyros have
in stabilizing. It fits in the palm of your hand yet is very difficlut to
rotate when it is up to speed.
I'm working on a new camera mount which will utilize 2 gyros at 90=B0 to each other
to help stabilize the yaw axis. I just started this business 2 months ago
and already have ad agencies calling and police dept. calling me wanting demo
flights. got 10 payng gigs lined up over the next 14 weeks.
I have found a GPS/inertial semi-autonomous controller that will reduce pilot workload
up to 75%. This is a good thing for small 30lb helicopters... they require
serious attention and coordination. Will be getting one in a few months.
If all goes well this may become my primary source of income in the next year.....
the downside? as I said.. it's eating up the GN-1 funds and time... rest
assured though that come December I WILL start covering my wings! come hell or
high water damnit.
ok..... enough of my rambling.... sorry. I had to share my latest endeavor with
my Piet friends.
DJ V.
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Bobka
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress
Who is the guy with the white tshirt in the video? Why do you not show any landings.....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Volckmann
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress
DJ,
Cool video.
Mike
DJ Vegh wrote:
just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic unmanned
helicopter/camera rig.
the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well.
this damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's
fun and the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing ought
to provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
DJ Vegh
www.azchoppercam.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
<| Date: | Aug 04, 2005 |
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
Nice work DJ, the DOD's UAV program may even be interested.
On 8/3/05, DJ Vegh wrote:
>
> just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic
> unmanned helicopter/camera rig.
> the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well.
> this damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's
> fun and the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing
> ought to provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
> http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
> DJ Vegh
> www.azchoppercam.com <http://www.azchoppercam.com>
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim Tab |
Have been thinking about doing the same thing Corky. Visited the Ray Allen
booth at Oshkosh and looked at their trim servos. Just $125 bucks, 4 oz.,
and they measure 1" x 2.3" x 2.75". I know its a bit too high tech for a
Piet but if DJ can have a digital engine management system why not? (Need a
battery of course).
On 8/3/05, Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Pieters,
> Am boxing in my starboard elevator,ala 7AC, for an adjustable trim tab.
> Has anyone seen or heard of this being done on a Piet? For you engineering
> types, How many sq in would it require to be effective? My design is 3 X 16.
> In addition I will feather all trailing edges with balsa for rudder and
> elevators.
> My I hear any objections or suggestions both positive and positive.
> Corky in La making airplane noises while Isabelle whistles Dixie
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hayes, Mike" <Mike.Hayes(at)denco.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Adventure '05 Crunching the Numbers |
Hi Chuck,
Very impressive fuel consumption - I seem to be burning nearer 4.5 US Galls
per hour! Running a 600 hour C65 but with mixture permanently wire locked
rich. I imagine you were leaning out on every trip regardless of altitude -
is this correct? Following some of the engine related presentations at
Oshkosh I think I had better take out some plugs and have a look at them. My
understanding now is that a weaker mixture is actually good for engine
longevity so I'm now thinking of fitting a mixture control.
Regards,
Mike Hayes
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| From: | Prange Larry J PSNS <prangel(at)psns.navy.mil> |
| Subject: | Perk's Time Machine Question |
At Brodhead, late Saturday afternoon, Ken Perkins' 'A' engine suffered a
problem that was described to me as "The magneto coupling failed.". Since
my Piet also has an 'A', I can't help but be interested in the details about
what happened, so that I might avert a similar failure. Does anyone know
exactly what failed and how?
Visiting Brodhead and meeting some of you in the flesh was GREAT! I'm
already working on my wife about going again next year.
Keep'n my fingers crossed in Washington,
Larry Prange
NX1929A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Planer Help????? |
| From: | "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Hi all,
I'm looking at Planers for building the Piet. I saw positive comments
in the archives on the Delta. The Deltas I've considered have been 12",
two blade, and one speed variety around $250. I'm also looking at the
DeWalt 734 which is three blade, one speed at $370. And also the DeWalt
735, three blade, two speed at $500. The best pricing for all seem to
be at Tool King. Would appreciate any comments on these thoughts.
Thanks,
Jack T
Des Moines
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Turrell" <emtyit(at)3web.net> |
All the machines you mentioned are good,but what you want to look for is "how easy
is it to change blades" I run a Ryobi in my cabinet shop and the blade change
is a snap,takes me about 10 min. no brainer type of setup.Also how many sharpenings
are you going to get on a set of blades(I know Delta were very skimmpy
when I looked a few years back)? On the Ryobi the machine will likely burn
out before I run out of blade to get sharpened,allthough somtimes I wonder,as
I have been using it since 1995 and untold thousands of board feet have passed
through it,but my guess is they all will stand up.Just a couple things to consider.Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Planer Help????? |
Jack T,
Since you brought it up I will comment on the subject. I have mostly Delta
tools in my shop as that was what was offered at the PX where I shop. I wish I
had gone elsewhere.
Drill Press. Chuck hangs up when trying to go to large shank drills
10 in Table saw. So cheaply built one can't saw a true straight cut
Mitre Saw. Have never been able to square the blade vertically
Electric sander. satisfactory
Mikita drill, Cut off saw and Bosch grinder are all great.
What I'm trying to say is go the extra money and get something better than
Delta
Don't have a planer or joiner as I have access to the woodshop At Barksdale
where they have heavy professional grade equipment.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Adventure '05 Crunching the Numbers |
In a message dated 8/4/2005 11:47:15 AM Central Standard Time,
Mike.Hayes(at)denco.co.uk writes:
I imagine you were leaning out on every trip regardless of altitude -
is this correct? Following some of the engine related presentations at
Oshkosh I think I had better take out some plugs and have a look at them. My
understanding now is that a weaker mixture is actually good for engine
longevity so I'm now thinking of fitting a mixture control.
Mike,
I have been leaving it full rich, until I get to an altitude of 4000 or 5000
msl. My next time up, I'm going to follow Chris's suggestion about leaning it
out before that. If your engine is running rich, it will deposit more
carbon in the engine oil. Another possible cause of running rich, is a float
setting that is too high. Does your carb ever drip fuel ? And a possible cause
of
higher fuel consumption might be using a high power setting, in attempting to
sustain a higher speed. I'm pretty sure I can get a consumption of just over
3 gal / hr, if I fly at just over minimum controllable airspeed. For my
plane and instruments this is at 1750 to 1800 rpm, which nets about 55 to 60 mph
indicated. Can't get there quite as fast, but it's a great way to just take in
the beautiful scenery !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
ps It looks like this weekend I'll be doing some high altitude tests.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Adventure '05 Crunching the Numbers |
Chuck,
The speed you are looking for is Lift over Drag Max--the point where induced
drag and parasitic drag co-incide. The slower you go the more induced drag due
to lift and the faster you go the more parasitic drag increases. Wished I could've
made it to Broadhead, but Uncle Ray wouldn't let me off.
Jim Dallas
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com<mailto:Rcaprd(at)aol.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adventure '05 Crunching the Numbers
In a message dated 8/4/2005 11:47:15 AM Central Standard Time, Mike.Hayes(at)denco.co.uk writes:
I imagine you were leaning out on every trip regardless of altitude -
is this correct? Following some of the engine related presentations at
Oshkosh I think I had better take out some plugs and have a look at them. My
understanding now is that a weaker mixture is actually good for engine
longevity so I'm now thinking of fitting a mixture control.
Mike,
I have been leaving it full rich, until I get to an altitude of 4000 or 5000
msl. My next time up, I'm going to follow Chris's suggestion about leaning it
out before that. If your engine is running rich, it will deposit more carbon
in the engine oil. Another possible cause of running rich, is a float setting
that is too high. Does your carb ever drip fuel ? And a possible cause of
higher fuel consumption might be using a high power setting, in attempting to
sustain a higher speed. I'm pretty sure I can get a consumption of just over
3 gal / hr, if I fly at just over minimum controllable airspeed. For my plane
and instruments this is at 1750 to 1800 rpm, which nets about 55 to 60 mph indicated.
Can't get there quite as fast, but it's a great way to just take in
the beautiful scenery !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
ps It looks like this weekend I'll be doing some high altitude tests.
________________________________________________________________________________
;
| From: | del magsam <farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Planer Help????? |
I have a delta, and it works just fine. It is set up with blades that are mean't
to be thrown away, they are sharp on 2 edges so you can reverse them. It costs
just as much to sharpen than to buy a new set. but I have a machine to sharpen
them, so I do sharpen mine.
Del
"Textor, Jack" wrote:
Hi all,
Im looking at Planers for building the Piet. I saw positive comments in the archives
on the Delta. The Deltas Ive considered have been 12, two blade, and one
speed variety around $250. Im also looking at the DeWalt 734 which is three
blade, one speed at $370. And also the DeWalt 735, three blade, two speed at
$500. The best pricing for all seem to be at Tool King. Would appreciate any
comments on these thoughts.
Thanks,
Jack T
Des Moines
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel(at)rocketmail.com"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com> |
| Subject: | OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
-------------------------------------
Nice work DJ, the DOD's UAV program may even be interested.
-------------------------------------
UGG!! Don't say that! They may get rid of us Aero Scouts!! UAVs are
EVIL. ;D
Great Video DJ. I really like your business concept. I can see some
very interesting directions you can take it. Good luck!
Jake Crause
Piet Builder and Army Scout pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
I didn't hear about his problem, but I do know he only runs one mag. I bought
one of his double mag set ups and it is on my engine now and working fine so far.
I'd very much like to hear what happend as well since my crank driven mag is the
same set up.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Planer Help????? |
| From: | "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Thanks for all the comments! Jim M thanks for the reference to
<http://dgroups.woodmagazine.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtagportplaners >
www.woodmagazine.com, lots of useful information.
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Leading edge strip material? |
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material?
I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at
about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Leading edge strip material? |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
I used Sitka Spruce. Expensive, but light and strong. During my forced
landing last fall it took out a fence post with nothing but a small dent
to show for it.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material?
I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at
about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Piet at Stinson Field |
Reportedly, the Texas Air Museum at Stinson Field (San Antonio) has acquired
a 1932 Pietenpol with a Lambert 5-cylinder radial engine. This airplane was
formerly at another museum, possibly Rio Hondo (TX), and I assume it will be
in need of restoration. I need to get out there and see what they have!
Anybody know the history of this plane, who built it, anything? Know who
might be familiar with this engine and could work on it?
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge strip material? |
I used a piece of 5/4 clear pine. Or you can look in the regular pine bin
and pay less for a good hand picked clear piece. I forget how wide the
piece was , but when cut on a bevel it took care of both leading edges.
After bolting in place I used my little hand plane (no pun) to shape the
both leading edges.
There is nothing so satisfying as using a sharp plane to bring a piece
down to a perfect, uniform size.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
> May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material?
> I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
> wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
> I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at
> about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
>
----
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
>
============================================================================
==
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lynn Knoll" <dknoll(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Tail Wheel Attach Fitting |
The plan (Drawing No. 6) shows the two fittings that bolt to the lower longerons.
There is no room on top of the longeron for a bolt for the 2 bottom tabs. What
did you guys do?
Thanks,
Lynn Knoll
Wichita Piet/Vair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Javier Cruz <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx> |
Hi Piets
What a great time at Broadhead, see the planes, take movies and pictures of
Pietenpols , and the main was the pleasure to meet some Piets listers
,what a group, i will expect that the next year we have more time there..
Just i want to thanks to all for the welcome .
Javier Cruz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Wheel Attach Fitting |
If you are refering to the landing gear attach brackets, make them wider than
the plan calls for. The bolts will need to clear the ash cross members.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynn Knoll
To: pietenpol list
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail Wheel Attach Fitting
The plan (Drawing No. 6) shows the two fittings that bolt to the lower longerons.
There is no room on top of the longeron for a bolt for the 2 bottom tabs.
What did you guys do?
Thanks,
Lynn Knoll
Wichita Piet/Vair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Wheel Attach Fitting |
Sorry for my last post. I answered about the main gear brackets. On the tail
post, I used a piece of stainless rod and thru bolted those fittings. That thru
bolt then becomes the anchor for my seat belts and sholder harness.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynn Knoll
To: pietenpol list
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail Wheel Attach Fitting
The plan (Drawing No. 6) shows the two fittings that bolt to the lower longerons.
There is no room on top of the longeron for a bolt for the 2 bottom tabs.
What did you guys do?
Thanks,
Lynn Knoll
Wichita Piet/Vair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Piet at Stinson Field |
Hey Oscar,
I saw this airplane about 15 yrs ago. It was sitting in a hangar in Clifton
TX. It has taylorcraft wings adapted. It has German markings. Search the
archives and you should see some discussion. According to someone's post, it
supposedly was flown in dogfight performances a few times while at the Hondo
museum. If they need any engine parts, let me know. I have a friend here in
Waco that knows how to scrounge that stuff. He had a complete LeBlond radial and
some Lambert parts a while back.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers;
Thanks primarily to the urging of my friend and "online Tech Counselor/A&P"
Jeff Scott in Los Alamos, I finally dived into the fabric covering of my
vertical stabilizer after doing the needed repairs on the wood. I've never
done any fabric work prior to this, and had wanted to hold it to a simple
patch repair, but it made more sense to strip the old fabric and recover.
What fun! Almost as much fun as woodwork! It went exactly as per the book
(Poly-Fiber). Got the fabric measured, cut, and glued to the stabilizer,
then heat smoothed, then tautened the fabric (absolute magic!) and applied
the first coat of Poly-Brush. It's drying now, to be followed by trying my
hand at the modified seine knot (lacing the ribs), applying pinked finishing
tapes, then the Poly-Brush, Poly-Spray (silver), and finally the "Federal
Yellow" Poly-Tone.
To those who haven't yet done fabric work: you can do it! It's fun and
rewarding, the system is very forgiving of beginner's roughness, and
besides... the Pietenpol was conceived as a "barnyard job" and wouldn't know
what to do with an ultra-fancy covering or paint job anyway!
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | young girls building a Piet |
Here's one I had missed. A story about twin 13-year-old girls who are
building a Piet! Story is at
http://www.airventure.org/2005/satjuly30/around_field.html
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
Hey,
I bought my project partly covered, and I'm now ribstiching and taping. When
I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum tight as others
I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as most I've felt. I've
calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's okay.
I'm guessing he just left the covering a bit loose when he covered it, so there's
just not enough slack to leave it drum tight.
My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the first coating,
instead of non-taughtening?
any thoughts??
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | wood landing gear |
I'm about to build the landing gear and as I study the plans I see that both sides
angle back toward the tailwheel. Several people have told me that when they
build theirs that getting this angle just right causes difficulty. I just
don't understand why you'd have to angle it anyway because the axle passes straight
thru. Con someone enlighten me?
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wdmelvin(at)netzero.net" <wdmelvin(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Long time reader, first time writer |
Rick,
Yhanks for the info. I have been to the flycorvair site before and was looking
for responses from those in the know. Thanks.
Rick,
Yhanks for the info. I have been to the flycorvair site before and was looking
for responses from those in the know. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John and Phyllis Smoyer" <jpsmoyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Tail fin orientation |
We're about ready to install the tail fin on the Air Camper under construction
at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum in Reading, PA. Does anyone out there know if
the fin should be installed at an angle to the aircraft centerline, or should
it be aligned parallel to it?
We're thinking that maybe one doesn't really know until the airplane flies, and
that the fin's mounting brackets should be slotted so adjustments can be made
later. Any comments/suggestions would be much appreciated.
This is a great site, and we're learning from it every day. Thanks, and best regards
to all.
John Smoyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harvey Rule <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: covering taughtness |
I may be wrong but I think it tightens up after your first coat anyway.
> Hey,
>
> I bought my project partly covered, and I'm now ribstiching and
> taping. When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't
> seem as drum tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight
> like a drum as most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty
> sure that's okay.
>
> I'm guessing he just left the covering a bit loose when he covered it,
> so there's just not enough slack to leave it drum tight.
>
> My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
>
> any thoughts??
>
> Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike King" <mikek120(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet at Stinson Field |
Terry, Oscar and the Gang,
I stopped at the Clifton airport several years ago enroute
to Dallas. The folks there told me about a black homebuilt
airplane that resembled a Piet or GN-1. There were not
sure what it was but a museum in the Texas Rio Grande
Valley came up, bought it and trailered it back to Rio Hondo.
A year later, I was in the Valley for a Masonic function but
stopped by the Texas Air Museum in Rio Hondo to see the
plane. As luck would have it, the museum was hosting its
monthly slate of events which included a re-enactment of what
they billed as the first aerial dogfight in this country during the
days of Poncho Villa. The Piet/GN-1 was dressed in German
colors going up against a vintage biplane. John Warren
Houston, founder of the museum, flew one of the planes.
Both pilots, cropdusters by trade, flew very tight maneuvers
just feet above the crowd and did things with those planes
that would envy many veteran stunt and aerobatics pilots.
By they way, John Warren Houston was featured in a
Discovery Wings episode involving the restoration of a
World War II fighter that was shot down. Ironically, John
found the pilot that was shot down in that plane, flew to
Germany and personally invited him to return to Texas.
The veteran German pilot flew to Texas where he saw
his restored airplane and sat in its cockpit just as he did
over half a century ago. Tears were seen on both John
and the German aviator. It was a great episode. John
later passed away short after the show aired.
Since then, the Texas Air Museum in Rio Hondo has
moved its planes to other Texas Air Museum Chapters
located in Slaton and Stinson Field in San Antonio, the home
of the black PIET Oscar made reference to.
For more information about the Texas Air Museum, you
can go to its web site: www.texasairmuseum.com.
When you click on the Slaton Chapter, you will find pictures
of the late Jimmy Franklin signing autographs just after
his performance there last June....just week before his
tragic death. Another great loss.
FYI, I have pictures of the black German Piet/GN-1
I photographed at Rio Hondo. If anyone is interested
I will send them to you. It is a sweet looking airplane
with a radial engine and distinctive markings. Maybe
somone can direct me on how to post pictures of the
plane for the rest of this group to see.
Keep up the great work guys......maybe we can make
a Texas Piet/GN-1 fly to Stinson Field.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Dallas
----- Original Message -----
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet at Stinson Field
Hey Oscar,
I saw this airplane about 15 yrs ago. It was sitting in a hangar in Clifton
TX. It has taylorcraft wings adapted. It has German markings. Search the archives
and you should see some discussion. According to someone's post, it supposedly
was flown in dogfight performances a few times while at the Hondo museum.
If they need any engine parts, let me know. I have a friend here in Waco
that knows how to scrounge that stuff. He had a complete LeBlond radial and
some Lambert parts a while back.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet at Stinson Field / Der Faker Fokker |
I believe that this is "Der Faker Fokker" that was up for sale earlier this
year on eBay. I have all the photos and info they posted at that time.
Here are the relevant parts of the eBay listing as well as a couple of
photos from it. Following the EBay listing is a re-post of a message to this
list in which museum director Lee Labar describes the plane, posted here by
Mike King on 1/11/2004. (The Jose with an L-19 that Lee mentions is Jose
Cano, who helped put the wheels on and some other stuff, but never actually
flew this plane. I can provide Jose's email address if you really wanna ask
him about it.)
Hope this helps. Nifty airplane... I've never seen it in person,
unfortunately.
-Mike
Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net
Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association
http://www.ov-10bronco.net/
Pietenpol Air Camper & Radial Engine, WW1 Fokker
Seller information:
texasairmuseum ( 0 )
Feedback Score: 0 feedback reviews
Member since Feb-06-05 in United States
Pietenpol Air Camper & Radial Engine, WW1 Fokker Vehicle Description
Der Faker Fokker
This is the most unique Pietenpol Air Camper you'll ever find! Dubbed "Der
Faker Fokker," it was designed to resemble a 1918 German WW1 fighter.
Instead of the conventional Model A Ford engine in a standard Pietpenpol,
this plane has a very rare 1932 Lambert 5 cylinder radial engine. It also
has Jenny style landing gear and replica machine guns. This Air Camper has
been owned by the Texas Air Museum of Rio Hondo, Texas since 1993, and was a
real crowd pleaser at airshows and fly-ins. It was issued it's
Airworthiness Certificate in December of 1979.
Technical Details:
Engine - 1932 90 HP Lambert
Wing Span - 29 ft
Length - 17 ft, 8 in
Height - 6 ft, 6in
Empty Weight - 610 lbs
Fuel Capacity - 10 Gallons
Landing Speed - 40 mph
Cruise Speed - 70 mph
Engine Total Time - approximately 1290 hours
Der Faker Fokker was last flown in December of 2003, when the museum's
flying activities were ceased. It's last annual was on 2/1/03. It has
always been hangared and does not have any damage from crashes or otherwise.
While we do not expect any problems getting the plane current again, you are
encouraged to inspect the plane or ask questions before bidding, as we will
not be liable for any problems incurred. Buyer must pick up aircraft from
it's current location in Rio Hondo, TX (south Texas, near Brownsville, TX).
It will need to be trailed from the location. There are airports nearby
with repair facilities available.
Please visit http://www.texasairmuseum.com/pietenpol/index.htm for high
resolution pictures.
Email any questions to tam(at)rgv.rr.com Thanks!
---------------------------------------------
Hello Mike,
Nick forwarded me your inquiries about the Texas Air Museum Pietenpol Air
Camper.
First, to give you some background, I took over as director ( a volunteer
position) for the museum when John Houston died in November of 2002. I had
the privilege of working with John for several years before his death, but I
mainly handled his crop spraying and personal business interests. My
knowledge of the museum and its exhibits is rather limited. Nonetheless,
here's what I know about the Pietenpol.
According to the paperwork I have, N36RN (serial number RN1) was built by
Robert H. Northcutt of Monterrey, California. He built the aircraft to
resemble a WWI German fighter, using Jenny style fixed gear, fake machine
guns, insignia, and paint scheme. The airplane is dubbed "Der Faker Fokker"
for obvious reasons. The airworthiness certificate I have was issued on
December 20, 1979.
The specs and performance stats I have for the aircraft are as follows: wing
span- 29', wing cord- 5', length overall- 17' 8", height overall, 6'6",
landing gear tread- 56", propeller- 6' 4" diameter, weight empty- 610 lbs.,
fuel capacity- 10 gallons, climb full load- over 200' first minute, hi
speed-
90 mph, landing speed- 40 mph.
The engine on N36RN is a 1930 Lambert model R-266 five cylinder radial,
serial number 3076-TC-38. It is rated at 90 hp at 2350 rpm and weighs 214
lbs. Over the years around here, I have heard it referred to as "Babe
Ruth's
engine," implying that this particular engine may have been owned at one
time
by the baseball legend. That may or may not be a bunch of baloney as far as
I know. There seems to be a lot of that produced within aviator circles.
As
of yet I haven't seen any documentation to back up this claim.
In April of 1984, the aircraft was registered to Ted F. Mayo of Nemo, Texas.
I have no idea where Nemo is, but I believe it's correct that the Pietenpol
came here from Clifton, Texas. I went to the airport there a few years back
to look at an Agcat that was for sale there and I ran into a guy who said he
was a member of the Texas Air Museum and that he had helped get the
Pietenpol
to Rio Hondo some years back. A nice fellow; I think his name was Jose
something-or-other. He was restoring an L-19 Bird Dog at the time.
I am assuming that the museum acquired the Pietenpol because of its
appearance as a WWI German mockup. John Houston owned a 7/8 scale SE5a
replica (lost in a crash here last month) which was used to battle the
Pietenpol during some of the Fly-Ins here at the museum each year. It was
an
impressive sight, enhanced by the unique drone if the Lambert radial on the
Pietenpol.
As far as the flight characteristics of the aircraft are concerned, I
wouldn't know as I have never flown it. I have been told it is a little
squirrelly in the turns and that if landed on pavement, it seems to get
faster
and faster after touchdown. Judging from a couple of the squirrels I've
seen
flying the aircraft, it can't be all that bad.
That's about all I can think to tell you about our Pietenpol. I am
attaching
a few of the pictures I have of it. Feel free to pass this information on
to
people in your group. Please keep in mind my lack of qualified knowledge of
the information I've given you.
The fellow you spoke to here the other day is Glenn Vance. He is one of the
long time volunteers here at the museum. I know he has some pretty good
photos of the Pietenpol he intends to scan and email to you if he hasn't
done
it already.
I appreciate you letting your group know about our museum. Please let them
know we are in constant need of financial support (of course.) Publicity
within aviation circles is a big help. We aren't very well known yet, but
there is a really nice collection in the making here. I hope to take the
ingredients that John Houston left behind and form them into a tool for
educating future generations about aviation history. Stay tuned to the
Texas
Air Museum website for updates on our progress.
If you get the opportunity, come down and take a look for yourself.
Sincerely,
Lee Labar
Museum Director
Texas Air Museum of the Rio Grande Valley
1 Mile East FM 106
PO Box 70
Rio Hondo TX 78583-0070
phone (956) 748-2112 fax (956) 748-3500
email: tds2(at)att.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Up early this morning to watch the shuttle land...Just wondering if anyone
has ever cataloged the various A/N nuts, bolts and other hardware used in a
Piet. I'm building a straight-axle, Ford A-powered Piet and am not all that
comfortable yet with going from the old hardware spec'd on the 1933 plans to the
latter-day aircraft grade hardware. I'm currently building the landing gear for
may plane. Also, yesterday afternoon, I set the dual control stick assembly
into place. Will post some pictures of my project one of these days soon.
By the way, I purchased my control stick assembly, rudder bar and the lower
fuselage landing gear and lift strut attach fittings from Ken Perkins. I offer
a totally unsolicited endorsement of Ken's work -- it is gorgeous workmanship
and, in my case, will save me untold hours of trying to learn to weld and to
build these parts correctly, not to mention will save me the worry about flying
with metal parts that I had welded. I know that part of the Piet process is
to learn various skills and to do it yourself, but for me it just makes sense
to let a real pro make parts like these vital components.
Thanks in advance for any help with the A/N hardware!
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet at Stinson Field |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Lowell Frank now has a Lambert radial on his Pietenpol and probably
knows more about the Lambert engine than anyone else in the country.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
Reportedly, the Texas Air Museum at Stinson Field (San Antonio) has
acquired
a 1932 Pietenpol with a Lambert 5-cylinder radial engine. This airplane
was
formerly at another museum, possibly Rio Hondo (TX), and I assume it
will be
in need of restoration. I need to get out there and see what they have!
Anybody know the history of this plane, who built it, anything? Know
who
might be familiar with this engine and could work on it?
Oscar Zuniga
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Hola Javier,
It was a great pleasure to meet you and put a face with a name. I've
seen your name of posts to the list for years, but now I know what you
look like. It was good to meet you and your friends and family.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
Hi Piets
What a great time at Broadhead, see the planes, take movies and pictures
of
Pietenpols , and the main was the pleasure to meet some Piets listers
,what a group, i will expect that the next year we have more time
there..
Just i want to thanks to all for the welcome .
Javier Cruz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tail fin orientation |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
I made two sets of holes for my fin - one set aligned staight with the
centerline and another set offset to counteract the engine torque. I
first installed it on the centerline but after the first couple of
flights I changed to the offset holes. Whether you need to do this
depends on your engine installation, and how much right thrust and
downthrust your engine mount provides.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail fin orientation
We're about ready to install the tail fin on the Air Camper under
construction at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum in Reading, PA. Does anyone
out there know if the fin should be installed at an angle to the
aircraft centerline, or should it be aligned parallel to it?
We're thinking that maybe one doesn't really know until the airplane
flies, and that the fin's mounting brackets should be slotted so
adjustments can be made later. Any comments/suggestions would be much
appreciated.
This is a great site, and we're learning from it every day. Thanks, and
best regards to all.
John Smoyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | wood landing gear |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Hi Tom,
I really struggled with this when building mine. The problem is, if you
have the V blocks at the ends of the struts parallel to the aircraft
centerline, you cannot get the struts to fit properly at the fuselage
and at the V blocks - you can get a good fit at one or the other, but
not both. It is geometrically impossible. I cut countless sets of
struts (fortunately in scrap pine before committing to expensive
spruce), trying to get the angles just right to fit well at the fuselage
and at the V blocks.
Finally, I suspended the fuselage from the ceiling and made a jig to
hold the V blocks at just the right height. I then ran a string
representing the outboard leading edge of each strut down to the V
blocks. Since the outboard surfaces of the landing gear struts have to
be in the same plane if they are to fit well at the fuselage, I could
then twist the V block on the jig until the two strings on each side
were in line with each other. At that point I marked the angle of the V
block. When I made scrap struts to fit the V block at that angle,
everything fit perfectly. The angle of the V block is very close to the
angle required to point it at the tailwheel. Whether this is by design
or just coincidence I don't know.
I have some photos of my setup that I can email if you'd like, but they
are too large to put on the list.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
tmbrant1(at)netzero.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood landing gear
I'm about to build the landing gear and as I study the plans I see that
both sides angle back toward the tailwheel. Several people have told me
that when they build theirs that getting this angle just right causes
difficulty. I just don't understand why you'd have to angle it anyway
because the axle passes straight thru. Con someone enlighten me?
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Leading edge strip material? |
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
Thanks to all who helped me, this time on the leading edge. Over the
weekend, I picked up a long length of 2x6 fir. It comes almost clear in
14' lengths. I priced out 5/4" clear pine, sitka, hand railing, and
3/4" clear pine to laminate. I ended up ripping the 2x6 about four
times to rough it out, clamped it to the wing assembly, and used a block
plane. Eight dollars for the lumber, and a little labor and fun. Thank
you all for your good advice. By mixing and matching all advice to my
style and capability, I have found good solutions to help me advance my
project quickly. After the outboard wings are glue up, I'll work on the
(36") center section, and will need to think about fabricating a gas
tank at some point. Thank you all again.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt
evans
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
I used a piece of 5/4 clear pine. Or you can look in the regular pine
bin
and pay less for a good hand picked clear piece. I forget how wide the
piece was , but when cut on a bevel it took care of both leading edges.
After bolting in place I used my little hand plane (no pun) to shape the
both leading edges.
There is nothing so satisfying as using a sharp plane to bring a piece
down to a perfect, uniform size.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
> May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip
material?
> I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
> wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
> I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3"
at
> about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
>
>
--
----
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
>
========================================================================
====
==
>
>
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Once the weave is rendered immovable with the first coat of primer, or
poly brush it will seem tighter. Before the weave is filled the
individual fibers are not locked in place which give it the drum tight
feel your looking for. Trust the process and make sure your iron is
calibrated.
Steve E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harvey
Rule
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
I may be wrong but I think it tightens up after your first coat anyway.
> Hey,
>
> I bought my project partly covered, and I'm now ribstiching and
> taping. When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't
> seem as drum tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight
> like a drum as most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty
> sure that's okay.
>
> I'm guessing he just left the covering a bit loose when he covered it,
> so there's just not enough slack to leave it drum tight.
>
> My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
>
> any thoughts??
>
> Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear design |
Since we are on the subject of landing gear, on thing I didn't measure on
anyone's Piet at Broadhead was the distance from the bottom longerons to the
ground at the main gear. I did measure most peoples deck angles and found a
range of 10 to 13 degrees. Anyhow with my tail wheel installed to get a deck
angle of 12 degrees the bottom longeron to ground measurement will need to
be around 32".
What's interesting is that the 1933 plans show this distance to be about 25"
but the Flyer and Glider Manual wood gear plans show the axle 17" below the
bottom longeron with a 26" wheel, which after figuring tire diameter comes
out to about the 32" that I figure I need.
Can anyone see where I am calculating wrong here?
Thanks
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing gear design |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Rick, are those figures with the plane sitting level, or with the
tailwheel on the ground? I'll try to measure mine the next time I'm at
the airport, but I think your figures are about right. Mine has 21"
wheels and I had to add a step to be able to get in it (couldn't swing
my leg over the cockpit coaming, even though I have long legs) so 32" is
probably about right. I think my deck angle is about 12 to 13 degrees.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Holland
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear design
Since we are on the subject of landing gear, on thing I didn't measure
on anyone's Piet at Broadhead was the distance from the bottom longerons
to the ground at the main gear. I did measure most peoples deck angles
and found a range of 10 to 13 degrees. Anyhow with my tail wheel
installed to get a deck angle of 12 degrees the bottom longeron to
ground measurement will need to be around 32".
What's interesting is that the 1933 plans show this distance to be about
25" but the Flyer and Glider Manual wood gear plans show the axle 17"
below the bottom longeron with a 26" wheel, which after figuring tire
diameter comes out to about the 32" that I figure I need.
Can anyone see where I am calculating wrong here?
Thanks
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John and Phyllis Smoyer" <jpsmoyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail fin orientation |
Thanks for the quick response, Jack. How far did you offset the holes? Any guess
at how many degress of offset you used? '
Thanks,
John S
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear design |
Thanks Jack, I am measuring down with a long straightedge perpendicular to
the top longerons and through the centerline of the axles so this
measurement should be the same with the tail up or down (I think).
On 8/8/05, Phillips, Jack wrote:
>
> Rick, are those figures with the plane sitting level, or with the
> tailwheel on the ground? I'll try to measure mine the next time I'm at the
> airport, but I think your figures are about right. Mine has 21" wheels and I
> had to add a step to be able to get in it (couldn't swing my leg over the
> cockpit coaming, even though I have long legs) so 32" is probably about
> right. I think my deck angle is about 12 to 13 degrees.
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> NX899JP
>
> "Icarus Plummet"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Holland
> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2005 9:25 AM
> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Landing gear design
>
> Since we are on the subject of landing gear, on thing I didn't measure on
> anyone's Piet at Broadhead was the distance from the bottom longerons to the
> ground at the main gear. I did measure most peoples deck angles and found a
> range of 10 to 13 degrees. Anyhow with my tail wheel installed to get a deck
> angle of 12 degrees the bottom longeron to ground measurement will need to
> be around 32".
>
> What's interesting is that the 1933 plans show this distance to be about
> 25" but the Flyer and Glider Manual wood gear plans show the axle 17" below
> the bottom longeron with a 26" wheel, which after figuring tire diameter
> comes out to about the 32" that I figure I need.
>
> Can anyone see where I am calculating wrong here?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Rick Holland
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John and Phyllis Smoyer" <jpsmoyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN nomenclature to some
degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of the bolt in increments
of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts
are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the numbers don't correspond
directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length as an
AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded
along their entire length, so you can run into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you all you need to
know.
http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm. It even includes a down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edwin Johnson <elj(at)shreve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: covering taughtness |
Hello Douwe,
> From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
> When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum
> tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as
> most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's okay.
>
> My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
As a Stits/Poly Fibre user, there are alarm bells going off when I read
this and a reply about the first coat making it tighter.
What system of covering are you using on this plane? Please tell me this
is _not_ the Poly Fibre system being used.
...Edwin
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your
eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you
long to return."-- da Vinci ... www.shreve.net/~elj
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tail fin orientation |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
I think they were offset about =BE" to 1", or about 3 degrees as I recall.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John and Phyllis Smoyer
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tail fin orientation
Thanks for the quick response, Jack. How far did you offset the holes? Any guess
at how many degress of offset you used? '
Thanks,
John S
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric Williams" <ewilliams805(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress |
Wow - really impressive DJ. Am I the only one who thought there must be
plenty of sunbathing beauties there in Phoenix that might help to calibrate
the zoom lens on this thing?
Eric
>From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: OT - unmanned helicopter camera progress
>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:00:53 -0700
>
>just thought I'd share a video I shot and edited today using my robotic
>unmanned helicopter/camera rig.
>
>the gyro stabilizer on the camera mount smooths out the motion VERY well.
> this damn helicopter project is keeping me from the GN-1 but hey.... it's
>fun and the GN-1 can wait. I'll finish it one day! ;) Besides this thing
>ought to provide income where the GN-1 likes to burn it up!
>
> http://www.azchoppercam.com/portfolio/video/flight.wmv
>
>DJ Vegh
>www.azchoppercam.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
I did hear once where a guy was covering with Dacron and he used the
heater to the point where it actually broke ribs inside the wing.Be
aware.
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Eldredge
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Once the weave is rendered immovable with the first coat of primer, or
poly brush it will seem tighter. Before the weave is filled the
individual fibers are not locked in place which give it the drum tight
feel your looking for. Trust the process and make sure your iron is
calibrated.
Steve E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harvey
Rule
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
I may be wrong but I think it tightens up after your first coat anyway.
> Hey,
>
> I bought my project partly covered, and I'm now ribstiching and
> taping. When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't
> seem as drum tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight
> like a drum as most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty
> sure that's okay.
>
> I'm guessing he just left the covering a bit loose when he covered it,
> so there's just not enough slack to leave it drum tight.
>
> My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
>
> any thoughts??
>
> Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wood landing gear |
Tom
If you need help with setting them up, give me a call. Also, I have a spare
set you can use a guide to setting yours up.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood landing gear
>
>
>
> I'm about to build the landing gear and as I study the plans I see that
> both sides angle back toward the tailwheel. Several people have told me
> that when they build theirs that getting this angle just right causes
> difficulty. I just don't understand why you'd have to angle it anyway
> because the axle passes straight thru. Con someone enlighten me?
>
> Tom B.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail fin orientation |
At Broadhead I saw a couple of Piets that had the forward mount bracket spaced
extra wide with a shim on each side so that offset could be easily adjusted.
I don't recall who that was.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail fin orientation
We're about ready to install the tail fin on the Air Camper under construction
at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum in Reading, PA. Does anyone out there know if
the fin should be installed at an angle to the aircraft centerline, or should
it be aligned parallel to it?
We're thinking that maybe one doesn't really know until the airplane flies, and
that the fin's mounting brackets should be slotted so adjustments can be made
later. Any comments/suggestions would be much appreciated.
This is a great site, and we're learning from it every day. Thanks, and best
regards to all.
John Smoyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Leading edge strip material? |
John-- just catching up on all my e-mails. Sounds like you got some good
advice.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | group photo at Brodhead with Javier |
Guys-- Can anyone put a name with the gent in the orange shirt ? I want
to say Terry Bowden but not sure. Sorry about that.
L-R are Ed Grentzer, Family or friend of Javier, Jim Markle, Javier, Jack
Phillips, John Hofman, and myself.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | wood landing gear |
I'd be interested in seeing the photos.
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Tail fin orientation |
John writes-
>Does anyone out there know if the fin should be installed at an angle
>to the aircraft centerline, or should it be aligned parallel to it?
Funny you should ask. I'll soon be ready to reinstall my vertical
stabilizer and was thinking about offsetting the leading edge to help take
out some of the need to hold right rudder. Corky added a fixed trim tab to
the trailing edge of the rudder and that helps, but I figured I can offset
the leading edge of the VS about an inch to the port side (counterclockwise
rotation if you view it from above, pivoting about the rudder hinge line).
The airplane has an A-65; if you are running a Corvair, I think you'd need
to offset in the other direction.
Comments from anybody who's tried offsetting their VS would be appreciated.
And a few photos on the VS recovering are at the top of
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/repairs.html
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com> |
Pieters,
I've finally got around to lofting the rib onto my rib jig and am pretty
happy with the profile given some of the variations in the dimensions
given in the drawings. I'm plotting the locations of the spars and ran
across a couple of questions.
1. Are the bottoms of the spars supposed to be beveled to match the rib
profile? If so, is the starting dimension supposed to be 4 3/4 then
beveled as needed or must the beveled dimension be no less than 4 3/4 on
its shortest side after beveling?
2. From the horizontal reference line the top of the front spar is at 5
1/8" and so is the top of the rear spar. Taking into account the 1/4
cap strip the bottom of the front spar is at 5/16" above the reference
line and the bottom of the rear spar is at 1/2". This tells me that the
rear spar must be shorter. Is this correct or am I missing something.
Thanks.
Jake Crause
P.S. I am using 3/4" spars and the locations I have them plotted are:
1. Front face of the front spar is 6 7/8" from LE of wing.
2. Front face of rear spar is 28" from rear face of front spar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com> |
Another rib question. Where did you find the locations of the verticals
(only used on end ribs)? Are they just equal distance between the
spars? I noticed they do not appear to be vertical. Do I just get them
about as perpendicular between the two capstrips as possible and base
the diagonals off of that? Maybe I'm over thinking it. Thanks.
Jake Crause
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barnstmr(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: group photo at Brodhead with Javier |
Sorry, not me. That guy's a lot better looking than me. I still hope to make
my first broadhead fly-in next year.
Terry L. Bowden
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: group photo at Brodhead with Javier
Guys-- Can anyone put a name with the gent in the orange shirt ? I want to say
Terry Bowden but not sure. Sorry about that.
L-R are Ed Grentzer, Family or friend of Javier, Jim Markle, Javier, Jack Phillips,
John Hofman, and myself.
Mike C.
Attached Image: Bhead05GroupPhoto.jpg
[Image removed]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: group photo at Brodhead with Javier |
Sure is easy to pick out the Suthun gentlemen in this pic. Orange shirt has
to be a yankee as he is too good looking to be a reb.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: group photo at Brodhead with Javier |
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
I am still taken by the good looks and obvious charm of the =B3properly sized=B2
gentleman in the ballcap and sweatshirt standing next to Javier. :)
-john-
Do no archive.
> Sure is easy to pick out the Suthun gentlemen in this pic. Orange shirt has to
> be a yankee as he is too good looking to be a reb.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com> |
Well, I did some more digging and came across a discussion on this topic
in Sep 99. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that ran into that problem.
Anyway, the 4 possible fixes that were discussed were:
1. Notch the capstrip a bit to allow the spar to fit. I believe, once
glued, this would be very strong and would not affect rib strength.
Walt Evans did this.
2. Bevel the spar as required to get it to fit. The downside is it
Removes spar material.
3. Go with a slightly undersized spar and still use the wedges. The
downside is slightly weaker spar but still has a flat top unlike #2.
4. Notch the spar where the rib joins. I don't like this idea because
of the stress riser imposed.
I like number 1 personally. Does anyone see a problem with doing this?
One point that was brought up during the Sep 99 discussion was that many
designs don't even have a capstrip over the spar. A small notch, with a
proper glue joint, should be as strong as one without a notch.
Anyway, thanks for listening. Look forward to hearing from you.
Jake
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jake
Crause
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More Rib fun
Pieters,
I've finally got around to lofting the rib onto my rib jig and am pretty
happy with the profile given some of the variations in the dimensions
given in the drawings. I'm plotting the locations of the spars and ran
across a couple of questions.
1. Are the bottoms of the spars supposed to be beveled to match the rib
profile? If so, is the starting dimension supposed to be 4 3/4 then
beveled as needed or must the beveled dimension be no less than 4 3/4 on
its shortest side after beveling?
2. From the horizontal reference line the top of the front spar is at 5
1/8" and so is the top of the rear spar. Taking into account the 1/4
cap strip the bottom of the front spar is at 5/16" above the reference
line and the bottom of the rear spar is at 1/2". This tells me that the
rear spar must be shorter. Is this correct or am I missing something.
Thanks.
Jake Crause
P.S. I am using 3/4" spars and the locations I have them plotted are:
1. Front face of the front spar is 6 7/8" from LE of wing.
2. Front face of rear spar is 28" from rear face of front spar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Edwin,
Don't worry, I think if you carefully re-read, I am not saying that
anything gets tighter, it just seems tighter when the fiber strands
cannot move relative to each other. Imagine the difference between a
trampoline and a trampoline that has been coated with ice. I'm trying
to describe a difference in flexibility, that might be mistaken as
tightness.
Like I say, follow the process for your specific manufacture and make
sure your iron is calibrated and all will be well with the world.
I only bring this up since I had a similar concern comparing my 375
degree tightened but raw fabric to that of a crop dusters finish painted
surface. I was worried that my fabric was still loose, until I filled
the weave and painted, then viola! Everything was normal, including the
satisfying drum sound when you plink at the new surface.
BTW my most recent covering job is a Stinson with Air-Tech last week.
(Not Poly-Fiber)
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edwin
Johnson
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Hello Douwe,
> From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
> When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum
> tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as
> most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's
okay.
>
> My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
As a Stits/Poly Fibre user, there are alarm bells going off when I read
this and a reply about the first coat making it tighter.
What system of covering are you using on this plane? Please tell me this
is _not_ the Poly Fibre system being used.
...Edwin
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your
eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you
long to return."-- da Vinci ... www.shreve.net/~elj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Javier Cruz <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx> |
Thanks Jack, it was a pleasure to meet you and all of the group too..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | What's a Mini Jini, and why would you stretch a Piet wing? |
Hi yall
I seem to recall that there's a Piet variant out there known as a "Mini
Jini" with a JN-4 style tail and fake radiator and longer wings. I'm not
sure if this is a one-off or supplemental plans, or what... does anyone know
anything about this? I sat in one at SNF a couple years ago, at least I
think that's what it was. Unfortunately I can't remember the gentlemans's
name who owned it, I think he was from the gulf coast of Florida. I remember
that he said that the wings had been extended... either 4 feet total or 4
ft. per side, I can't remember... what effect on performance does this
change really have?
Just curious...
Mike
Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net
Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association
http://www.ov-10bronco.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> |
I plan to use the beveled spar method, although I don't see anything wrong with
any of the ways you've sugested. Hadn't thought about notching the ribs but
I tend to use the easiest way I can think of which, to me is beveling the spars...
The only draw back to this is slightly increased weight (over a sq. spar
with wedges) but we're talking minimal difference..
My two cents...
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wood landing gear |
Dick,
I'll take you up on that... I think I need to research a bit more about location
of mine based on using the corvair engine and long fuselage (isn't yours a
short fuse with Continental??)
Once I figure out location you and I should get together and review your installation.
Are you still at Crystal or have you moved yet?
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
One of the best coverings I ever had was Tedlar.Fantastic stuff.You
could see through it.
It shrunk everytime beautifully.Even when people would come along and
try to put their finger through it all you had to do was just hit it
with the heat again and all the little puckers would come out.I wish I
could get my hands on that stuff again but it's hard to come by now.It
was used quite extensively in the Lazair ultralight.It lasted forever
even with out covering in the sun.Mylar is not as good.One season and it
is like thin glass.Hit it with your finger and it shatters.I had my
covering on from 1980 to 1996 when I sold the plane and for all I know
it's still on there.
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Eldredge
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Edwin,
Don't worry, I think if you carefully re-read, I am not saying that
anything gets tighter, it just seems tighter when the fiber strands
cannot move relative to each other. Imagine the difference between a
trampoline and a trampoline that has been coated with ice. I'm trying
to describe a difference in flexibility, that might be mistaken as
tightness.
Like I say, follow the process for your specific manufacture and make
sure your iron is calibrated and all will be well with the world.
I only bring this up since I had a similar concern comparing my 375
degree tightened but raw fabric to that of a crop dusters finish painted
surface. I was worried that my fabric was still loose, until I filled
the weave and painted, then viola! Everything was normal, including the
satisfying drum sound when you plink at the new surface.
BTW my most recent covering job is a Stinson with Air-Tech last week.
(Not Poly-Fiber)
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edwin
Johnson
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Hello Douwe,
> From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
> When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum
> tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as
> most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's
okay.
>
> My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
As a Stits/Poly Fibre user, there are alarm bells going off when I read
this and a reply about the first coat making it tighter.
What system of covering are you using on this plane? Please tell me this
is _not_ the Poly Fibre system being used.
...Edwin
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, there you
long to return."-- da Vinci ... www.shreve.net/~elj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
The only draw back to this is slightly increased weight (over a sq. spar with
wedges) but we're talking minimal difference..
Well, I used a beveled spar on my center section and that sure wasn't the only
drawback, at least for me....I made the spar sizing close enough to the inside
of the rib that I could get a nice T88 bond.....took FOREVER to slide the ribs
on the spar....I would try it on a short test piece before I tried sliding ribs
across a 13-14 foot piece of beveled spar.....I was amazed at what that close
tolerance did to the process.....
Maybe BHP did the "square spar with wedges" method after trying to slide ribs on
a beveled spar....I sure did!
And I have to wonder if the benefit of the top capstrip bonding to that beveled
spar surface (most likely in tension, so that epoxy joint is virtually useless
anyway....) gains for the structure? I'll bet not much.....certainly not worth
the darn headache, imho....
JM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Metcalfe" <fmetcalf(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
What method are you using. Poly Fiber?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:31 PM
To: pietenpolgroup
Subject: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Hey,
I bought my project partly covered, and I'm now ribstiching and taping.
When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum tight
as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as most I've
felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's okay.
I'm guessing he just left the covering a bit loose when he covered it, so
there's just not enough slack to leave it drum tight.
My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the first
coating, instead of non-taughtening?
any thoughts??
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Smith <ocleju(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Alternative Engines - Geo/Suzuki |
Alternative Engines - Geo/Suzuki
If you are interested in alternative engines for
experimental aircraft you are invited to
join the flyGeo_uncensored group and learn about the
fantastic Geo/Suzuki engines used in
aircraft.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyGeo_uncensored
Both bolt on gearbox and cog belt redrives and all
other aircraft
conversion parts are available for very reasonable
cost. Turbo
versions are available also. Gearbox type redrives for
around US$1750-
The Geo/Suzuki engine uses about half the fuel that
the two stroke
engines use.
The 1.3 litre four cylinder Suzuki engine beats the
Rotax 912 in
power and weight, again both gearbox and belt type
redrives are
available.
The Geo/Suzuki one litre engine weighs a little more
than a Rotax
582, it produces 62 HP normally aspirated but with a
better, flatter
torque curve.
All those advantages plus flying engines with the
hours up to prove
them and last but not lease, far, far cheaper than a
Rotax two or four stroke engine.
One person on the group has over 1000 hours on one
installation.
FlyGeo_uncensored is a very active and helpful group
that is also a fun group and is not
doubt one of the fastest growing aircraft alternative
engine groups.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyGeo_uncensored
The FlyGeo_uncensored Management
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net> |
| Subject: | Re: covering taughtness |
Harvey,
Tedlar was the original house wraping white sheet from DuPont, I've gotta
assume still is. Think it's still available in clear or colored
sheet/rolls., ck out DuPont Plastic Products and Resins website for
distributors of Mylar etc. FYI, its that same product sales group of Tedlar
and Mylar at DuPont that has the product Kapton (thin film verson of
Kevlar), it's the gold coated film used for the solar arrays in most all
space vehicles.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
>
> One of the best coverings I ever had was Tedlar.Fantastic stuff.You
> could see through it.
> It shrunk everytime beautifully.Even when people would come along and
> try to put their finger through it all you had to do was just hit it
> with the heat again and all the little puckers would come out.I wish I
> could get my hands on that stuff again but it's hard to come by now.It
> was used quite extensively in the Lazair ultralight.It lasted forever
> even with out covering in the sun.Mylar is not as good.One season and it
> is like thin glass.Hit it with your finger and it shatters.I had my
> covering on from 1980 to 1996 when I sold the plane and for all I know
> it's still on there.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Eldredge
> Sent: August 8, 2005 7:01 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
>
>
> Edwin,
>
> Don't worry, I think if you carefully re-read, I am not saying that
> anything gets tighter, it just seems tighter when the fiber strands
> cannot move relative to each other. Imagine the difference between a
> trampoline and a trampoline that has been coated with ice. I'm trying
> to describe a difference in flexibility, that might be mistaken as
> tightness.
>
> Like I say, follow the process for your specific manufacture and make
> sure your iron is calibrated and all will be well with the world.
>
> I only bring this up since I had a similar concern comparing my 375
> degree tightened but raw fabric to that of a crop dusters finish painted
> surface. I was worried that my fabric was still loose, until I filled
> the weave and painted, then viola! Everything was normal, including the
> satisfying drum sound when you plink at the new surface.
>
> BTW my most recent covering job is a Stinson with Air-Tech last week.
> (Not Poly-Fiber)
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edwin
> Johnson
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 8:29 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
>
>
> Hello Douwe,
>
> > From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
>
> > When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum
>
> > tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as
>
> > most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's
> okay.
> >
> > My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> > first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
>
> As a Stits/Poly Fibre user, there are alarm bells going off when I read
> this and a reply about the first coat making it tighter.
>
> What system of covering are you using on this plane? Please tell me this
>
> is _not_ the Poly Fibre system being used.
>
> ...Edwin
> _______________________________________________________
> "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
> skyward, for there you have been, there you
> long to return."-- da Vinci ... www.shreve.net/~elj
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | covering taughtness |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Cool ,thanks for the info.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon
Bowen
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Harvey,
Tedlar was the original house wraping white sheet from DuPont, I've
gotta
assume still is. Think it's still available in clear or colored
sheet/rolls., ck out DuPont Plastic Products and Resins website for
distributors of Mylar etc. FYI, its that same product sales group of
Tedlar
and Mylar at DuPont that has the product Kapton (thin film verson of
Kevlar), it's the gold coated film used for the solar arrays in most all
space vehicles.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
>
> One of the best coverings I ever had was Tedlar.Fantastic stuff.You
> could see through it.
> It shrunk everytime beautifully.Even when people would come along and
> try to put their finger through it all you had to do was just hit it
> with the heat again and all the little puckers would come out.I wish I
> could get my hands on that stuff again but it's hard to come by now.It
> was used quite extensively in the Lazair ultralight.It lasted forever
> even with out covering in the sun.Mylar is not as good.One season and
it
> is like thin glass.Hit it with your finger and it shatters.I had my
> covering on from 1980 to 1996 when I sold the plane and for all I know
> it's still on there.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Eldredge
> Sent: August 8, 2005 7:01 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
>
>
> Edwin,
>
> Don't worry, I think if you carefully re-read, I am not saying that
> anything gets tighter, it just seems tighter when the fiber strands
> cannot move relative to each other. Imagine the difference between a
> trampoline and a trampoline that has been coated with ice. I'm trying
> to describe a difference in flexibility, that might be mistaken as
> tightness.
>
> Like I say, follow the process for your specific manufacture and make
> sure your iron is calibrated and all will be well with the world.
>
> I only bring this up since I had a similar concern comparing my 375
> degree tightened but raw fabric to that of a crop dusters finish
painted
> surface. I was worried that my fabric was still loose, until I filled
> the weave and painted, then viola! Everything was normal, including
the
> satisfying drum sound when you plink at the new surface.
>
> BTW my most recent covering job is a Stinson with Air-Tech last week.
> (Not Poly-Fiber)
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edwin
> Johnson
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 8:29 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
>
>
> Hello Douwe,
>
> > From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
>
> > When I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as
drum
>
> > tight as others I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum
as
>
> > most I've felt. I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's
> okay.
> >
> > My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the
> > first coating, instead of non-taughtening?
>
> As a Stits/Poly Fibre user, there are alarm bells going off when I
read
> this and a reply about the first coat making it tighter.
>
> What system of covering are you using on this plane? Please tell me
this
>
> is _not_ the Poly Fibre system being used.
>
> ...Edwin
> _______________________________________________________
> "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
> skyward, for there you have been, there you
> long to return."-- da Vinci ... www.shreve.net/~elj
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | covering tautness |
All this talk about fabric tautness is of great interest for me at the
moment. One thing I've seen over and over in the Poly-Fiber manual is that
if you overtemp your iron (over 350F, for Poly-Fiber), you will not only NOT
increase the tautness, you will permanently lose what it already has. Think
"melt", "yield", or "plastic deformation"! I'm assuming that when Steve E.
mentioned 375F, he was not referring to Poly-Fiber ("Stits"), but something
else.
According to the Poly-Fiber manual, you cannot hurt the fabric by leaving
the iron sitting on any one spot or by ironing it too much, as long as you
are running your iron below that 350F number and it's a calibrated iron.
Use 225 to 250F for heat-smoothing and initial tautening, then cranking up
to 325 and to a max of 350F as is required for any STC'd fabric job. At
least that's what the book says... my only experience so far is in covering
one vertical stabilizer, but I didn't want to have to do it twice so I've
read the book quite a few times along the way!
As Stevee mentioned, the tautened fabric won't have that drum-head feel
until you apply the coatings. Then the whole thing becomes a uniform
membrane rather than an assembly of individual strands and it takes on that
nice drummy feel.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | antique airplane assn |
After past discussion of AAA, I looked them up today. Looks interesting for fly
ins and such. I also noticed they have a sub listing for the International
Pietenpol Assn. Does anyone belong to this? Is it worthwhile? I may just try
it out.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jdavis2a(at)wmconnect.com |
| Subject: | Re: antique airplane assn |
I joined the Int. Piet. Ass. several years ago. My check was cashed but
never recieved any newsletters. Unless they have improved I cannot see any
benifit belonging to this group
JIM
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | antique airplane assn |
| From: | "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Dick, I do. AAA is a good organization, but very informal. I primarily
belong so I can attend the fly-in in Blakesburg August 31 to September
5th, which is member only. There are usually about 300+ beautiful
antique aircraft. I have seen 2-10 Piets make it. They have 1 or 2
basic newsletters per year, again very informal. I can't tell you
anything about the sub-group of Piets. If I can help any further, let
me know.
Jack Textor
Des Moines
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Navratil
Subject: Pietenpol-List: antique airplane assn
After past discussion of AAA, I looked them up today. Looks interesting
for fly ins and such. I also noticed they have a sub listing for the
International Pietenpol Assn. Does anyone belong to this? Is it
worthwhile? I may just try it out.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAuAhUAsq2egt/hfsgxSiHEgk+gy/nBq/ECFQCPwEWt+RaVuF/rvcHcAYwC1OTypw==
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Re: antique airplane assn |
I was in the IPA many years ago and they had a nice newsletter, but it
ended after the IPA was named in a law suit after a fatel pietenpol
crash. They had nothing to do withit, but spent themselves broke
defendig themselve. I think its still there, but is no longer active.
Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: antique airplane assn |
Ditto
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antique airplane assn |
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
AAA is a pretty good organization and was a real force in the early 1950s
through the early 60s before EAA took off. I am currently working on
obtaining the rights to the old "American Airman" magazine which was their
monthly or bimonthly magazine in the late 50s and early 60s, for publication
on CD. These are a wealth of knowledge if you are into old airplanes and
just fun to read. The ads make one drool with things like "Joe Mackey's WACO
Taperwing, fresh annual, will deliver, $1000 or best offer." I digress.
AAA has had problems with capital and a reputation for "not playing nice in
the sandbox." They also own all the rights and spare parts to the Ken
Royce/LeBlond engine line. That said, when they do put out an issue of any
of their publications it is usually a real gem. It is worth the few bucks if
you ever want to hit Blakesburg, IA for their Labor Day weekend flyin.
For those of you who are Brodhead minded we also have MAAC "Midwest Antique
Airplane Club." MAAC has a flyin at Brodhead the weekend after Labor Day and
is my favorite. Not only will you have Piets there but lots of really neat
shit that you will not see anywhere else. MAAC membership requires a
membership in AAA or VAA and was meant to be a common ground. Anyway it is a
great event if you need to get to Brodhead again but you must be a member to
camp and fly in and stay at the field. Keeps the riff-raff out. All others
are welcome to stop by and say hey.
Sorry for the stupid message.
-john-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge strip material? |
I think dale and greg used a lot of cedar from the lumber yard.
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
> May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material?
> I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
> wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
> I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at
> about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
>
----
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
>
============================================================================
==
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet at Stinson Field |
oscar,
this airplane has been talked about before on this list. Check the
archives. The rio hondo museum also had an FW-190 that they obtained from
the bottom of a Norwegian Fjord.
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet at Stinson Field
>
> Reportedly, the Texas Air Museum at Stinson Field (San Antonio) has
acquired
> a 1932 Pietenpol with a Lambert 5-cylinder radial engine. This airplane
was
> formerly at another museum, possibly Rio Hondo (TX), and I assume it will
be
> in need of restoration. I need to get out there and see what they have!
> Anybody know the history of this plane, who built it, anything? Know who
> might be familiar with this engine and could work on it?
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
Javier,
I looked for you but never found you. I had to leave ahead of the high
winds so took off for Minneapolis at 2:30 pm on Saturday.
Next time.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Javier Cruz" <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Broadhead
>
> Hi Piets
>
>
> What a great time at Broadhead, see the planes, take movies and pictures
of
> Pietenpols , and the main was the pleasure to meet some Piets listers
> ,what a group, i will expect that the next year we have more time there..
> Just i want to thanks to all for the welcome .
> Javier Cruz
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: covering taughtness |
Even the non tautening will tauten a bit. Just press on. It will be fine. Over
time, it will shrink more.
I have seen aircraft implode from the tautening over time, like an Aeronca with
a scalloped trailing edge to the elevators and rudder.
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: covering taughtness
Hey,
I bought my project partly covered, and I'm now ribstiching and taping. When
I do the final 350 degree ironing though, it doesn't seem as drum tight as others
I've felt. IT's taught, just not tight like a drum as most I've felt.
I've calibrated my iron so I'm pretty sure that's okay.
I'm guessing he just left the covering a bit loose when he covered it, so there's
just not enough slack to leave it drum tight.
My question is, what if I used some tightening nitrate dope for the first coating,
instead of non-taughtening?
any thoughts??
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail fin orientation |
I would recommend building the vertical AND
horizontal stabilizer with a way to adjust
them
if needed.
Dale and I offset the LE of the fin about 1/2
inch to the left and it could use a bit more.
Engine model, thrust angle and prop
combination will make each ship fly a bit
different.
Allow yourself a way to make adjustments.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail fin orientation
> "Oscar Zuniga"
>
> John writes-
>
>>Does anyone out there know if the fin
>>should be installed at an angle
>>to the aircraft centerline, or should it be
>>aligned parallel to it?
>
> Funny you should ask. I'll soon be ready
> to reinstall my vertical stabilizer and was
> thinking about offsetting the leading edge
> to help take out some of the need to hold
> right rudder. Corky added a fixed trim tab
> to the trailing edge of the rudder and that
> helps, but I figured I can offset the
> leading edge of the VS about an inch to the
> port side (counterclockwise rotation if you
> view it from above, pivoting about the
> rudder hinge line). The airplane has an
> A-65; if you are running a Corvair, I think
> you'd need to offset in the other
> direction.
>
> Comments from anybody who's tried
> offsetting their VS would be appreciated.
> And a few photos on the VS recovering are
> at the top of
> http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/repairs.html
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
> Forum -
> Subscriptions page,
> Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge strip material? |
where did you get the wood?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
> Thanks to all who helped me, this time on the leading edge. Over the
> weekend, I picked up a long length of 2x6 fir. It comes almost clear in
> 14' lengths. I priced out 5/4" clear pine, sitka, hand railing, and
> 3/4" clear pine to laminate. I ended up ripping the 2x6 about four
> times to rough it out, clamped it to the wing assembly, and used a block
> plane. Eight dollars for the lumber, and a little labor and fun. Thank
> you all for your good advice. By mixing and matching all advice to my
> style and capability, I have found good solutions to help me advance my
> project quickly. After the outboard wings are glue up, I'll work on the
> (36") center section, and will need to think about fabricating a gas
> tank at some point. Thank you all again.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt
> evans
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 5:41 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
>
>
> I used a piece of 5/4 clear pine. Or you can look in the regular pine
> bin
> and pay less for a good hand picked clear piece. I forget how wide the
> piece was , but when cut on a bevel it took care of both leading edges.
> After bolting in place I used my little hand plane (no pun) to shape the
> both leading edges.
> There is nothing so satisfying as using a sharp plane to bring a piece
> down to a perfect, uniform size.
> walt evans
> NX140DL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:57 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> >
> > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip
> material?
> > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
> > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
> > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3"
> at
> > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
> >
> >
> --
> ----
> > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
> contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
> exempt
> from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
> please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
> destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
> >
> ========================================================================
> ====
> ==
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
----
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
>
============================================================================
==
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch with a -1 at 1/8"
grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no such thing as a -8 or
a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes a 1 incher or, better yet
a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7 is 7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a
-11 is 1-1/8"
The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN nomenclature to
some degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of the bolt in increments
of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4
bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the numbers don't correspond
directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length as
an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded
along their entire length, so you can run into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you all you need to
know.
http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm. It even includes a down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More Rib fun |
don't notch. It will weaken the capstrip that is carrying a sizeable
tensile load. Better to plane down the spar ever so little to have it at an
angle that matches the angle betweent he upright and the lower cap.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Crause" <admin(at)homebuiltairplanes.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More Rib fun
>
> Well, I did some more digging and came across a discussion on this topic
> in Sep 99. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that ran into that problem.
> Anyway, the 4 possible fixes that were discussed were:
>
> 1. Notch the capstrip a bit to allow the spar to fit. I believe, once
> glued, this would be very strong and would not affect rib strength.
> Walt Evans did this.
>
> 2. Bevel the spar as required to get it to fit. The downside is it
> Removes spar material.
>
> 3. Go with a slightly undersized spar and still use the wedges. The
> downside is slightly weaker spar but still has a flat top unlike #2.
>
> 4. Notch the spar where the rib joins. I don't like this idea because
> of the stress riser imposed.
>
> I like number 1 personally. Does anyone see a problem with doing this?
> One point that was brought up during the Sep 99 discussion was that many
> designs don't even have a capstrip over the spar. A small notch, with a
> proper glue joint, should be as strong as one without a notch.
>
> Anyway, thanks for listening. Look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Jake
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jake
> Crause
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:47 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: More Rib fun
>
>
>
> Pieters,
>
> I've finally got around to lofting the rib onto my rib jig and am pretty
> happy with the profile given some of the variations in the dimensions
> given in the drawings. I'm plotting the locations of the spars and ran
> across a couple of questions.
>
> 1. Are the bottoms of the spars supposed to be beveled to match the rib
> profile? If so, is the starting dimension supposed to be 4 3/4 then
> beveled as needed or must the beveled dimension be no less than 4 3/4 on
> its shortest side after beveling?
>
> 2. From the horizontal reference line the top of the front spar is at 5
> 1/8" and so is the top of the rear spar. Taking into account the 1/4
> cap strip the bottom of the front spar is at 5/16" above the reference
> line and the bottom of the rear spar is at 1/2". This tells me that the
> rear spar must be shorter. Is this correct or am I missing something.
> Thanks.
>
> Jake Crause
>
> P.S. I am using 3/4" spars and the locations I have them plotted are:
> 1. Front face of the front spar is 6 7/8" from LE of wing.
> 2. Front face of rear spar is 28" from rear face of front spar.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the
bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or
two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head
thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering
scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy to figure
without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32",
but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32", and an AN8-10 only has a grip
length of 5/16". The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent between
different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength bolts
have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16" incrememnts (e.g.,
an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375").
Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It
gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware,
along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they
generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except,
oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from them than
from Wicks).
The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and
is often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the
F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard
to believe that one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a
third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I
worked on what was called the ATF - Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is
now called the F-22), one of the first things I was taught was the
proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint relies on friction
to hold the parts together - friction caused by the clamping force the
bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in carrying
shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load in
tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by
tightening.
A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the
hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but
inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to
bear against the sides of the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose
your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and then add
one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread unengaged. Also
be sure there is at least one full thread extending beyond the nut. The
hole in the material should be chamfered or counterbored slightly under
the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius in the transition
area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this chamfer is
missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge of
the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that
can cause failure of the bolt.
When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on
an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored
surface of AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating
provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum from
corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic
cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the aluminum
part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in a wet
epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on the
F-16, but I must admit I didn't go to that extreme on my Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch with a
-1 at 1/8" grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no such
thing as a -8 or a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes a 1
incher or, better yet a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7 is
7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a -11 is 1-1/8"
The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer <mailto:jpsmoyer(at)verizon.net>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN
nomenclature to some degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of
the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut
is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the
numbers don't correspond directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt
is not the same length as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10.
Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire length, so you can run
into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you
all you need to know.
http://taggart.glg.msu..edu/gyro/bolts.htm
<http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm> . It even includes a
down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
m>
Jack---exactly right. That's what Tony Bingelis has to say as well......
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Leading edge strip material? |
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
My piece of fir for the leading edge came from my local lumber yard
(Wisconsin), I also visited a local Milling and Planning business who
had 5/4" clear pine for about the same price I can buy Sitka at
McCormick lumber in Madison, Wisconsin. The fir has a hand full of
birds eye size knots in it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christian Bobka
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
where did you get the wood?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
> Thanks to all who helped me, this time on the leading edge. Over the
> weekend, I picked up a long length of 2x6 fir. It comes almost clear
in
> 14' lengths. I priced out 5/4" clear pine, sitka, hand railing, and
> 3/4" clear pine to laminate. I ended up ripping the 2x6 about four
> times to rough it out, clamped it to the wing assembly, and used a
block
> plane. Eight dollars for the lumber, and a little labor and fun.
Thank
> you all for your good advice. By mixing and matching all advice to my
> style and capability, I have found good solutions to help me advance
my
> project quickly. After the outboard wings are glue up, I'll work on
the
> (36") center section, and will need to think about fabricating a gas
> tank at some point. Thank you all again.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt
> evans
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 5:41 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
>
>
> I used a piece of 5/4 clear pine. Or you can look in the regular pine
> bin
> and pay less for a good hand picked clear piece. I forget how wide
the
> piece was , but when cut on a bevel it took care of both leading
edges.
> After bolting in place I used my little hand plane (no pun) to shape
the
> both leading edges.
> There is nothing so satisfying as using a sharp plane to bring a
piece
> down to a perfect, uniform size.
> walt evans
> NX140DL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:57 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> >
> > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip
> material?
> > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on
the
> > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively
close.
> > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3"
> at
> > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
> >
> >
>
> --
> ----
> > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
> contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
> exempt
> from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error,
> please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
> destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
> >
>
========================================================================
> ====
> ==
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
----
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
>
========================================================================
====
==
>
>
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
Jack,
Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a
person(you) when climbing into the back seat=3F If so, would you describe
the design and mounting=3F Some people have 30" in seams....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:20 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
=09
=09
Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of
the bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer
or two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the
head thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash
numbering scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy
to figure without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of
1-1/32", but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32", and an AN8-10 only has a
grip length of 5/16". The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent
between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength
bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16" incrememnts
(e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375").
Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company.
It gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS
hardware, along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive,
but they generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly
(except, oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from
them than from Wicks).
The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly
critical, and is often overlooked. When I started working at General
Dynamics on the F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30
years ago (hard to believe that one of our front line fighters was
designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that
even back then I worked on what was called the ATF - Advanced Tactical
=46ighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the first things I was
taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint
relies on friction to hold the parts together - friction caused by the
clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are
excellent in carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is
carrying all the load in tension in addition to the tensile loads
imposed on the bolt by tightening.
A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt
within the hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the
hole, but inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the
bolt to bear against the sides of the hole in order to bear shear loads.
Choose your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and
then add one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread
unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread extending
beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or
counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small
radius in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the
shank. If this chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the
bolt diameter, the edge of the hole will tend to cut into this radius,
making a stress riser that can cause failure of the bolt.
When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel
bolt on an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold
colored surface of AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad
plating provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum
=66rom corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a
galvanic cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the
aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in
a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on
the F-16, but I must admit I didn't go to that extreme on my Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch
with a -1 at 1/8" grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no
such thing as a -8 or a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes
a 1 incher or, better yet a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7
is 7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a -11 is 1-1/8"
The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode
the AN nomenclature to some degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the
diameter of the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3
bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but
the numbers don't correspond directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10
bolt is not the same length as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an
AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire length, so
you can run into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can
tell you all you need to know.
http://taggart.glg.msu..edu/gyro/bolts.htm
<http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm> . It even includes a
down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of
the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the front step
design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined
tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint
appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
Jack,
Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a
person(you) when climbing into the back seat? If so, would you describe
the design and mounting? Some people have 30" in seams....
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
=09
=09
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
=66ront step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:34 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
Jack,
Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a
person(you) when climbing into the back seat=3F If so, would you describe
the design and mounting=3F Some people have 30" in seams....
=09
------
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may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
=09
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of
pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with
the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs
along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to
attach to.
Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not
want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in
the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front
seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of
having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've
not seen them.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
=09
=09
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Heres another method I found on the web.See attachments.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of
pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with
the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs
along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to
attach to.
Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not
want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in
the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front
seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of
having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've
not seen them.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
The other two pictures I wanted to send didn't get through due to
network problems,maybe this time.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of
pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with
the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs
along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to
attach to.
Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not
want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in
the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front
seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of
having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've
not seen them.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chris cummins <cccstandard(at)yahoo.com> |
I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and balance. What
are you using as the Datum point ?
Chris Cummins
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front of the prop hub.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and
balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
Chris Cummins
________________________________
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt34442/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
m>
Chris-- I used the front of my propeller hub for the datum---this way ALL
of your math is with positive numbers. Tony
Bingelis shows simple ways of doing weight and balance. It really is
much easier to work with all positive numbers.
Try to find accurate scales---bathroom scales can be really out of
calibration. Watch your tail when you are weighing
in the 'level-flight' attitude. It is very light on the tailwheel and the
plane can easily nose over. I think my tail only had
7 to 9 pound of force on the tail scale so one of the ladies watching the
procedure manned the tail in case it started to come up.
Congratulations on being so close !
Mike C. in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
You can use anything you like for the datum - just document it so you
can remember what you used. For aerodynamic purposes, the leading edge
of the wing works best, but that means anything ahead of the LE has a
negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing the math. I used
the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape measure to it. Again,
everything ahead of the firewall then must have a negative arm, but if
you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added in the distance from
the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and calculated my CG as a
percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG envelope.
Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight position, preferably
either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a perfectly windless
day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will change the reading
on your scales). If at all possible, use certified aircraft scales
(your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he would loan you). I
first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found that my initial
weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used certified scales. Put
each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale - if the wheel is off
to one side it won't read accurately. Remember empty weight includes
unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front of the prop hub.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and
balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
Chris Cummins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benny Bee <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Pouchel plans needed.Please help |
Guys howdy!.
A few days ag i came across pouchel design and got so
impressed that now i am thinking about building me
one.Too bad i can't find any info on plans and
construction.Whats involved,engine,total
weight,man/hours etc. I saw a site of Gary Gower but
there is many more questions i have regarding the
plane.
I saw a french site where plans were sold for
e100.Thats a good price ut i dont wanna buy cat in
bag.
Would love to hear here or offline from you fellows
who built it.
Thanks in advance! have a great flying!
Mitty
--- "Phillips, Jack" wrote:
> You can use anything you like for the datum - just
> document it so you
> can remember what you used. For aerodynamic
> purposes, the leading edge
> of the wing works best, but that means anything
> ahead of the LE has a
> negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing
> the math. I used
> the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape
> measure to it. Again,
> everything ahead of the firewall then must have a
> negative arm, but if
> you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added
> in the distance from
> the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and
> calculated my CG as a
> percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG
> envelope.
>
>
>
> Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight
> position, preferably
> either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a
> perfectly windless
> day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will
> change the reading
> on your scales). If at all possible, use certified
> aircraft scales
> (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he
> would loan you). I
> first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found
> that my initial
> weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used
> certified scales. Put
> each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale -
> if the wheel is off
> to one side it won't read accurately. Remember
> empty weight includes
> unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine.
>
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:21 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front
> of the prop hub.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of chris
> cummins
> Sent: August 10, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I have just finished building my Peit and need to do
> the weight and
> balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
>
>
>
> Chris Cummins
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pouchel plans needed.Please help |
Hello Benny,
Following is my answer to your mail yesterday, there I explain the best I could.
The price of the plans is correct. There are great but simple drawings, in metric
of course, but easy to follow using a metric tape. As I offrered, I will
help you as much as possible with advise during your construction. I am sure
you will need very little help.
Please dont buy "pirate" plans. support the designers and the homebuilt movement.
Saludos
Gary Gower
View Contact Details
Yes I build my Pouchel "La Bamba", is a great project, very easy and fast to build,
yet VERY well built. In fact the ladders (one of mine's) was tested up to
10 g's without getting to the break point even was able to return to the original
position once the weight was off!!!
Flys better than any ultralight, 3 axis ultralight will be very usefull. You will
love it, Now I am continue building the 2 seater HM 380 Flying Flea...
There are two important things to know: one is going to be dificult to make it
fit in the legal (USA) ultralight weight, but who will care and weight it?
Never heard from first hand pilots that have seen an FAA Oficcer ramp weighting
ultralights... Looks like and UL, fly like an UL, and the engine sound like
an UL... so is an UL.
I was not very carefull with the weightwhile building, here we have a gross limit
weight for ul's so it fitted very easy... But was not that easy myself (see
next)...
Another important point is pilot weight (and size of his rear end) to fit inside
the two spars of the ladder fuselage. I had to go in a diet and I am still
in this weight to fit: 65 Kgs (143 lbs).
I had to loose 18 lbs in the 8 months I built it. Carlos my partner loosed 25
lbs.
The plans are so graphic and good that the few words in French are easy to translate
with the use of a dictionary.
My Pouchel was the 3rd built (serial # 003) so I got a special Diploma from the
French FAA and Dalby's assn.
The price of the plans is not high... If you pay Dalby the amount of them I will
gladly help you by internet any time (for free). I like to support homebult
designers work... Is the base of world wide fredome of flight. Dont buy
pirate music, sofware or airplanes plans, from E-bay. Please support creative
people.
Hope to hear from you soon...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Benny Bee wrote:
Hello Gary!
Accidently i came across pouchel design and fell in
love with idea of using a ladders to build an
ultralight.How simple and rigid!.
The only reference i found regardless the plans was
one french site where they were sold as i understood
for 100 euro.
I made a search and found your site with pictures.Also
i found a word document-flight report.Please tell me
where can i find plans other then on a french site for
E100? Are those cd's that sold on ebay have it?
How many hours did you spend on building puchel? How
different it flies compared to 3 axis ultralight?
Please,whenever you get a chance let me know because i
am anxiouse :))
Thanks !
BB
Benny Bee wrote:
Guys howdy!.
A few days ag i came across pouchel design and got so
impressed that now i am thinking about building me
one.Too bad i can't find any info on plans and
construction.Whats involved,engine,total
weight,man/hours etc. I saw a site of Gary Gower but
there is many more questions i have regarding the
plane.
I saw a french site where plans were sold for
e100.Thats a good price ut i dont wanna buy cat in
bag.
Would love to hear here or offline from you fellows
who built it.
Thanks in advance! have a great flying!
Mitty
--- "Phillips, Jack" wrote:
> You can use anything you like for the datum - just
> document it so you
> can remember what you used. For aerodynamic
> purposes, the leading edge
> of the wing works best, but that means anything
> ahead of the LE has a
> negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing
> the math. I used
> the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape
> measure to it. Again,
> everything ahead of the firewall then must have a
> negative arm, but if
> you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added
> in the distance from
> the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and
> calculated my CG as a
> percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG
> envelope.
>
>
>
> Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight
> position, preferably
> either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a
> perfectly windless
> day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will
> change the reading
> on your scales). If at all possible, use certified
> aircraft scales
> (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he
> would loan you). I
> first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found
> that my initial
> weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used
> certified scales. Put
> each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale -
> if the wheel is off
> to one side it won't read accurately. Remember
> empty weight includes
> unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine.
>
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:21 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front
> of the prop hub.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of chris
> cummins
> Sent: August 10, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I have just finished building my Peit and need to do
> the weight and
> balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
>
>
>
> Chris Cummins
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Johnson" <ddjohn(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge strip material? |
Chris
We used redwood for the leading edge and the trailing edge.
Dale
> [Original Message]
> From: Christian Bobka <sbobka(at)charter.net>
> To:
> Date: 8/9/2005 7:48:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> I think dale and greg used a lot of cedar from the lumber yard.
>
> chris
>
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:57 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> >
> > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material?
> > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
> > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
> > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at
> > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
> >
> >
> ----
> > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
> contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt
> from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
> please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
> destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
> >
>
============================================================================
> ==
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in |
I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in each specific
area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did you
use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did you
use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use self
locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of the
plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one
cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
Also, if I'm a member of the EAA's Vintage Aircraft Association, can I attend
the Midwest Antique Airplane Association at Brodhead in a few weeks? Seems I
read that this is the case, but would like to make sure. Also, I can't find
any info on joining the MAAC. Anyone got some info?
Best regards,
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:27:10 AM Central Standard Time,
jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:
Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, or
the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The grip
length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus the
length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the bolt
diameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, an
AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32=E2=80=9D, but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32=E2=80=9D,
and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16=E2=80=9D. The dash numbering scheme
is
also inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high
strength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16=E2=80=9D
incrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375=E2=80=9D).
Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It gives
the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with a
wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have what
you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. That
always seems to take longer from them than from Wicks).
The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and is
often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16
program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believe
that
one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago.
Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF
=E2=80=93 Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the
first
things I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted
joint relies on friction to hold the parts together =E2=80=93 friction caused by
the
clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in
carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load
in
tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening.
A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole in
the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the hole
in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides=20of
the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear the
thickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure there
will be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread
extending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or
counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius
in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this
chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge
of the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that can
cause failure of the bolt.
When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on an
aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of=20AN
hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificial
anodic surface to protect the aluminum from corrosion. If the plating is
removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which will
cause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping
the hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard
practice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn=E2=80=99t go to that extreme on my
Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Jack,
That description, and Subject Line, of how to use hardware was a very good
addition to the archives.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
Jack Phillips,
I would like to hear about your flight from Brodhead to Oshkosh. How about
those headwinds ???
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antique airplane assn |
Dick Navratil wrote:
> After past discussion of AAA, I looked them up today. Looks
> interesting for fly ins and such. I also noticed they have a sub
> listing for the International Pietenpol Assn. Does anyone belong to
> this? Is it worthwhile? I may just try it out.
> Dick N.
I belonged to the International Pietenpol Association when it was taken
over by the AAA. They collected my dues and regularly failed to deliver
the publication. You would be better off to join the Vintage Airplane
Association of the EAA. Lots of resources and great publications.
Darrel Jones
N154JP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BernadetteTS <docfont(at)voyager.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
>
>From: TBYH(at)aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>
>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
>in each specific
>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did you
>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did you
>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use self
>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of the
>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one
>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>Fred B.
May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going
to be stronger than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
bolts were overstressed anyway?
This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
DocFont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
Good question DocFont...I have quite a few bucks tied up in AN hardware that
has to be individually measured and ordered from afar at specialty
prices...Yet there is a wholesale to the public fastener store a mile from
my workplace with great quality stuff at amazingly cheap prices..I've often
wondered if Bernard used AN hardware in the early days when he was building
planes from lumberyard spruce and makeing metal fittings from old cans? I
guess our planes just aren't barnyard specials anymore...
Ed Grentzer
>From: BernadetteTS <docfont(at)voyager.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:46:28 -0400
>
>
>>
>>From: TBYH(at)aol.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>>
>>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in
>>each specific
>>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did
>>you
>>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did
>>you
>>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use
>>self
>>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of
>>the
>>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately
>>one
>>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>>Fred B.
>
>May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
>
>Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts through a
>wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going to be stronger
>than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the bolts were
>overstressed anyway?
>
>This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at the
>local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
>
>DocFont
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Actually, I didn't see any headwinds. I stayed low (1800' MSL) and got
the crap beat out of me by the turbulence but I was seeing groundspeeds
around 85 knots (98 mph). Made it from Brodhead to Ripon in under an
hour (sure seemed longer, with the turbulence) and then on into OSH.
Landed at OSH in the most crosswind I have yet flown this plane in -
landed on 18R and the winds were from 250 at 18 with gusts to 22.
I kept looking for you there, and was getting worried when you didn't
show. I was glad to hear you were all right.
I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total
was 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05
Jack Phillips,
I would like to hear about your flight from Brodhead to Oshkosh. How
about those headwinds ???
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Our planes these days are much safer for using a/n hardware;don't cut
corners as the AME tells me ,stay alive!I do what ever that guy sez come
hell or high water!You do the same so we can read letters from you
later!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Good question DocFont...I have quite a few bucks tied up in AN hardware
that
has to be individually measured and ordered from afar at specialty
prices...Yet there is a wholesale to the public fastener store a mile
from
my workplace with great quality stuff at amazingly cheap prices..I've
often
wondered if Bernard used AN hardware in the early days when he was
building
planes from lumberyard spruce and makeing metal fittings from old cans?
I
guess our planes just aren't barnyard specials anymore...
Ed Grentzer
>From: BernadetteTS <docfont(at)voyager.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:46:28 -0400
>
>
>>
>>From: TBYH(at)aol.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>>
>>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
in
>>each specific
>>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut
did
>>you
>>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?
Did
>>you
>>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you
use
>>self
>>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas
of
>>the
>>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how
accurately
>>one
>>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>>Fred B.
>
>May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
>
>Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a
>wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going to be
stronger
>than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the bolts were
>overstressed anyway?
>
>This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the
>local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
>
>DocFont
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
> May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
>
> Why go to the expense of AN hardware when
> bolting together parts through a wood
> structure? The cheapest bolts known to man
> are going to be stronger than wood.
> Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
> bolts were overstressed anyway?
>
> This is not to say I would get my hardware
> from the bulk bins down at the local Farm
> and Fleet store. Just wondering
>
> DocFont
>
>
The re-sale value of your aircraft would be
reduced more than the added
cost of using A/N hardware.
Greg Cardinal
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip(at)alarismed.com> |
Fred, what you'e asking for is probably not very practical. Every
Pietenpol is different, with different thicknesses of material, even if
they used the same plans. You will need to figure it out for yourself
and order the hardware to fit your application.
In general, I used self locking nuts where I could on my plane just
because I find dealing with cotter pins to be a pain in the rear. Be
aware that there are places where self-locking nuts should not be used,
however. They should never be used on a bolt that is subject to
rotation, such as a bolt used to hold a pulley, or a control shackle.
There are several kinds of self-locking nuts. The AN 365 variety uses a
nylon insert that deforms when tightened to hold the nut in place. That
type of nut cannot be used int he engine compartment, or anywhere that
it might see elevated temperatures (the nylon insert will melt and lose
its ability to hold the nut). For high temperature operation, use a
metal stop nut such as AN 363. I prefer to use the low height MS21042
stop nuts. They are metal and can be used anywhere a stop nut is
allowed, and they are shorter and lighter than either AN363 or AN365
stop nuts. They were the standard nut used on the F-16.
As for the suggestion that you can use hardware store hardware, it is
certainly cheaper. You might save as much as $100 over the whole
airplane. Frankly, I don't think it's worth it. Mil spec hardware is
certified to known stresses, and is generally cadmium plated to reduce
corrosion. Piece of mind is important. When I was flying my Pietenpol
over the mountains of West Virginia on the way to Brodhead getting
banged around by turbulence, at least I didn't have to worry "I sure
hope that bolt I bought from Home Depot doesn't break now". Someone
made the comment that the wood parts will break before the hardware. I
doubt it, if the glue joints are properly made. The fittings are
designed to spread the load out in the wood, but the fittings are held
together with the hardware. If the hardware fails, you are in a world
of trouble.
One of the joys of building a plane from scratch is to be able to make
choices about materials. Just make smart choices. Think about it and
make your choices for valid reasons. Pity the kitbuilder - he's paid
someone else to do all his thinking for him. Little of the fun is left
for him to do, just the basic assembly.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TBYH(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in
each specific area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN
bolt and nut did you use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the
fuselage fittings? Did you use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the
nuts together, or did you use self locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and
nuts did you use in other areas of the plane? I suppose the sizes can
vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one cuts the wood, but am
hoping to get a little guidance.
Also, if I'm a member of the EAA's Vintage Aircraft Association, can I
attend the Midwest Antique Airplane Association at Brodhead in a few
weeks? Seems I read that this is the case, but would like to make sure.
Also, I can't find any info on joining the MAAC. Anyone got some info?
Best regards,
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
John,
Another step idea which I've used is the old inward swinging door step. It's very
simple and lightweight. Just a top hinged, spring loaded plate which is flat
with the fuse surface. I've seen guys place these just above the bottom longeron,
but I placed mine higher so that when my foot sticks through, it is on
the pilot's seat.
Didn't do one for the front pit, as I don't think they help much more than the
tire which is already there. Keep it light!!
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
I have read comparisons done between AN hardware and
hardware Grade 8 bolts. Apparently, the Grade 8 is
actually a little stronger than the AN bolt of equal
size, but the AN bolt is supposed to elongate before
it fails (allowing the iminient failure to be noticed
and corrected in a timely fashion) whereas the Grade 8
simply gives way without elongating. Both bolts have
an incredible breaking strength (which I would feel
would need a sigificant crash to cause enough energy
to make them fail) and should equally be adequate for
the type of planes we are building. I personally
wouldn't hesitate to use a Grade 8 bolt in many
applications on my project. As to the resale value of
the plane, I believe that the only potential buyers
who would not buy an airplane using grade 8 bolts are
the same people who feel that only AN bolts should
ever be used in the first place. I for one, whould
not downgrade a plane that used Grade 8 bolts and I
have bought many airplanes.
I believe that using bolts of equivalent strength (and
protective coating) should be equally safe. I prefer
to use AN hardware in areas of known stress which
could cause a catastropic failure and where the bolts
can be easily inspected for elongation and use Grade 8
bolts in less critical places.
These are my opinions only and each builder must make
his own judgements on what is or is not safe.
Doc H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of Ed G.
> Sent: August 11, 2005 7:18 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>
>
>
> Good question DocFont...I have quite a few bucks
> tied up in AN hardware
> that
> has to be individually measured and ordered from
> afar at specialty
> prices...Yet there is a wholesale to the public
> fastener store a mile
> from
> my workplace with great quality stuff at amazingly
> cheap prices..I've
> often
> wondered if Bernard used AN hardware in the early
> days when he was
> building
> planes from lumberyard spruce and makeing metal
> fittings from old cans?
> I
> guess our planes just aren't barnyard specials
> anymore...
> Ed Grentzer
>
>
> >From: BernadetteTS <docfont(at)voyager.net>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:46:28 -0400
> >
>
> >
> >>
>
> >
> >May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
> >
> >Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting
> together parts
> through a
> >wood structure?
> >
> >DocFont
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BernadetteTS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>
>From: TBYH(at)aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>
>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
>in each specific
>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut
did you
>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?
Did you
>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you
use self
>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas
of the
>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how
accurately one
>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>Fred B.
May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going
to be stronger than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
bolts were overstressed anyway?
This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
DocFont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
ce.ca>
In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
me from Cleveland for
about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
gone. I found out that the builders
both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
compression forces of the hub) and his
engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
front. He landed in a soybean
field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle and
flip him. Major damage, no
injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
say use whatever you want for
hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
a hangar.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
Guess how much...
Up to $45 each.
http://store.wagaero.com/
Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
Wow.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
with
me from Cleveland for
about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
gone. I found out that the builders
both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
compression forces of the hub) and his
engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
front. He landed in a soybean
field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
and
flip him. Major damage, no
injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
I
say use whatever you want for
hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
stuff
is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
a hangar.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware without
ordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how many
times I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it and
order more before I found the first batch. Your method should prevent
that and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with the
construction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.
I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, quality
airplane for such a low price.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
For those of you who'd like to get a little better education on bolts and
such, before using same in your death defying experimental, go buy
Sacramento Sky Ranch tech book. Lots of good stuff as to why you may want
to stick with AN quality bolts on props, etc. Secondly, little tidbits
like AN bolts have their threads pressed in, vs Grade 8 bolts having their
threads cut in, perhaps leading to stressor cracks, prop losses, puckered-up
glider flying and nasty soybean field landings.
Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
Cozy IV N64CY
Osprey II N64SY
Pietenpol N-1033B
" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan
________________________________________________________________________________
<984E798CE7C4D4419A6D99DF385597A8156437(at)toroondc511.bell.corp.b ce.ca>
<5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8(at)popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
Air Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked |
Air Camper
Grades 5 and 8 used to be used in the auto industry a lot (may still
be). Aut restorers often use grade 8 thinking that it's better
because it's "stronger". I guess it's the Spinal Tap theory (But mine
goes to 11!). However, for many suspension applications, grade 5,
which is "weaker" but less brittle, is proper.
I wonder if these failures would have occurred if fasteners with
proper characteristics had been used? I'm not advocating using grade
5 hardware on an airplane, but if you're going to use non-A/N, at
least research what you're doing.
>
>
>In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
>flew with me from Cleveland for
>about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
>gone. I found out that the builders
>both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
>Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
>marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
>compression forces of the hub) and his
>engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
>up front. He landed in a soybean
>field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
>axle and flip him. Major damage, no
>injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
>nearby. I say use whatever you want for
>hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
>stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
>a hangar.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
I also use "temporary" hardware as I learn what specific length AN bolt
is needed, however I use wing nuts for my temporary nuts because they
are easy to hand tighten, and they are very obvious to identify not to
be left on the final project....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware without
ordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how many
times I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it and
order more before I found the first batch. Your method should prevent
that and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with the
construction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.
I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, quality
airplane for such a low price.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
Camper
| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
A few weeks ago I bought some new AN6-42A bolts and locking nuts for my
A-75. I
paid nearly $60, and walked out of the store with my jaw dragging (its a local
aviation supply house). I needed them immediately, otherwise I would have
ordered them. Aircraft Spruce has the same bolts for $1.94 each, or
$11.64 for
six of them. You can get them with a drilled shank or head.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anbolts.php
You can get AN "prop bolts" from Sensenich and others, and they will
charge you
a LOT more ($230 to $255 for a set of six AN6 bolts). You might wonder what
you are getting for that extra $220 or so (an 1,800% markup). Obviously these
"prop bolts" must be made from some exotic material, probably x-rayed and
magna-fluxed to look for grain structure flaws at the factory, right? Wrong.
You are paying for Sensenich's "receiving inspection procedures". Basically
they test some of the bolts occasionally, and they measure them. Not worth
$220 IMO. Buy AN bolts that were manufactured in the US, make sure you
get the
right length, and I think that is probably the best you can get.
READ the thread in this link! It has responses from Sensenich QC people:
http://www2.sensenich.com/discuss/messages/77/220.html?1101437673
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sensalumbolts.php
You do have to be very careful to get the exact right length of thread so that
you don't bottom out the nut on the bolt. Otherwise you'll stretch the bolt
where the threads start, it will fail, and you'll break your plane and maybe
die. To determine where the nut will bottom out, I install the nut on the
bolt, turn it by hand until it bottoms out where the threads end, back it off
one turn, and then mark the bolt or count threads. That way you know
where you
have to stop torquing the bolt (and that you need longer ones). Keep in mind
that the prop compresses, so you'll need a little more thread than your
measurements indicate.
You can buy AN bolts from Spruce in 1/8" length increments, and there may only
be two bolt lengths that will work with your prop due to the short threaded
area. That means you have to do some very careful measuring with all of the
washers, your prop, and hub.
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting Steve Eldredge :
>
> I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
>
> Guess how much...
>
> Up to $45 each.
>
> http://store.wagaero.com/
>
> Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
>
> Wow.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> D Cuy
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> Camper
>
>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
> with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
> and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
> I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
This is what I did before I even knew there were "prop-bolts" sold at an
outrageous premium. Glad to hear that is not uncommon. Sorry you had
to pay the gouging price... Ouch.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ruse
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
AirCamper
A few weeks ago I bought some new AN6-42A bolts and locking nuts for my
A-75. I
paid nearly $60, and walked out of the store with my jaw dragging (its a
local
aviation supply house). I needed them immediately, otherwise I would
have
ordered them. Aircraft Spruce has the same bolts for $1.94 each, or
$11.64 for
six of them. You can get them with a drilled shank or head.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anbolts.php
You can get AN "prop bolts" from Sensenich and others, and they will
charge you
a LOT more ($230 to $255 for a set of six AN6 bolts). You might wonder
what
you are getting for that extra $220 or so (an 1,800% markup). Obviously
these
"prop bolts" must be made from some exotic material, probably x-rayed
and
magna-fluxed to look for grain structure flaws at the factory, right?
Wrong.
You are paying for Sensenich's "receiving inspection procedures".
Basically
they test some of the bolts occasionally, and they measure them. Not
worth
$220 IMO. Buy AN bolts that were manufactured in the US, make sure you
get the
right length, and I think that is probably the best you can get.
READ the thread in this link! It has responses from Sensenich QC
people:
http://www2.sensenich.com/discuss/messages/77/220.html?1101437673
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sensalumbolts.php
You do have to be very careful to get the exact right length of thread
so that
you don't bottom out the nut on the bolt. Otherwise you'll stretch the
bolt
where the threads start, it will fail, and you'll break your plane and
maybe
die. To determine where the nut will bottom out, I install the nut on
the
bolt, turn it by hand until it bottoms out where the threads end, back
it off
one turn, and then mark the bolt or count threads. That way you know
where you
have to stop torquing the bolt (and that you need longer ones). Keep in
mind
that the prop compresses, so you'll need a little more thread than your
measurements indicate.
You can buy AN bolts from Spruce in 1/8" length increments, and there
may only
be two bolt lengths that will work with your prop due to the short
threaded
area. That means you have to do some very careful measuring with all of
the
washers, your prop, and hub.
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting Steve Eldredge :
>
> I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
>
> Guess how much...
>
> Up to $45 each.
>
> http://store.wagaero.com/
>
> Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
>
> Wow.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Michael
> D Cuy
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
Air
> Camper
>
>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
> with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
axle
> and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
> I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
I like the wing-nut idea. Very appropriate!
Steve "wingnut" E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
I also use "temporary" hardware as I learn what specific length AN bolt
is needed, however I use wing nuts for my temporary nuts because they
are easy to hand tighten, and they are very obvious to identify not to
be left on the final project....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware without
ordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how many
times I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it and
order more before I found the first batch. Your method should prevent
that and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with the
construction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.
I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, quality
airplane for such a low price.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
========================================================================
======
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
Huh? I just checked Aircraft Spruce, and they are showing $2.50 each
for AN6H-43, or AN6H-43A. You can buy the undrilled ones a little
cheaper and drill them yourself
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Eldredge
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
Air Camper
I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
Guess how much...
Up to $45 each.
http://store.wagaero.com/
Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
Wow.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
with
me from Cleveland for
about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
gone. I found out that the builders
both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
compression forces of the hub) and his
engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
front. He landed in a soybean
field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
and
flip him. Major damage, no
injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
I
say use whatever you want for
hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
stuff
is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
a hangar.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
ce.ca> <5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8(at)popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
Michael,
I'm curious what the failure mode was on these bolts. Surely they didn't just
break in tension. And they shouldn't have broken in shear unless they weren't
torqued properly (or maybe they loosened over time, but that shouldn't be due
to them being grade 8). Any idea? I'm not saying anyone should use
Grade 8 on
a prop, I use AN bolts and will continue to, but I'm curious what
characteristic
of the grade 8 bolts caused them to fail in this case.
Steve Ruse
Quoting Michael D Cuy :
>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave me was
to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood will
continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is bolt
fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but there
a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts at the
firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double as
cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
Dick N.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were gone.
> I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
> and flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Courtney <jbciii5656(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
Thanks for the great link about AN bolts!...
Sincerely,
Jim Courtney
Florence, Mississippi
jbciii5656(at)yahoo.com or Jbciii5656(at)aol.com
John and Phyllis Smoyer wrote:
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN nomenclature to some
degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of the bolt in increments
of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts
are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the numbers don't correspond
directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length as an
AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded
along their entire length, so you can run into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you all you need to
know.
http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm. It even includes a down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when accurately
torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save the
couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two cents.
-john-
John Hofmann
A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
ce.ca> <5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8(at)popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
Speaking of re-torquing prop bolts, I need to do that before I go up Saturday
morning. I'd like to get the opinion of the experts here before I do so.
To avoid overtightening of prop bolts when checking the torque, do you
typicaly
loosen the bolts a little (1/16 turn), then re-torque to spec? Or just
set the
wrench to the max recomended torque value and check the bolt? If you don't
loosen the bolts first, and they don't budge at the recommended torque value,
do you then loosen the bolts and re-torque (since the proper torque reading is
taken when the nut is moving)?
Thanks,
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting Dick Navratil :
>
>
> When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave me was
> to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood will
> continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is bolt
> fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but there
> a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts at the
> firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double as
> cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
>
> Dick N.
> Dick N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:14 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> Camper
>
>
>>
>>
>> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
>> flew with me from Cleveland for
>> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
>> gone. I found out that the builders
>> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
>> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
>> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
>> compression forces of the hub) and his
>> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
>> up front. He landed in a soybean
>> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
>> axle and flip him. Major damage, no
>> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
>> nearby. I say use whatever you want for
>> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
>> stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
>> a hangar.
>>
>> Mike C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
John (or anyone),
Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled threads are
preferred, correct?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting John Hofmann :
>
>
> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when accurately
> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save the
> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two cents.
>
> -john-
> John Hofmann
> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
I'll jump into this one, I took some classes once.... I recall rolled
threads have more radius edges (points and valleys) which is created
when the threads get formed by a die, where cut threads have sharper
points and valleys from being cut. I also recall that a rolled thread,
has a larger minor diameter (the diameter at the root of the thread),
and the major diameter may also be a little larger than that of cut
threads. This is because the material is not being cut away from the
major diameter (shank), it's being re-located to another area of the
bolt. The major diameter of the threaded portion (rolled threads) of the
bolt grows in size, where on cut threads, the material gets cut away
because as you cut, you remove some of the outer diameter. That's my
recollection from that day in school in 1984, and it's not obvious to me
how the threads were formed when I casually look at a bolt.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ruse
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AN Hardware
John (or anyone),
Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled
threads are
preferred, correct?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting John Hofmann :
>
>
> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when
accurately
> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save
the
> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two
cents.
>
> -john-
> John Hofmann
> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
ce.ca> <5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8(at)popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
Just remember,,,Harder doesn't mean tougher.
It seems that AN bolts can be tied in a pretzel knot whithout
breaking,,,cold.
My Mentor told a story of a crash of a Mooney. Appariently the Mooneys use
a very small engine mount bolt. 3/8" (AN-6) (I think, or smaller)
He said he saw the aftermath of the crash. The plane twisted into a
horseshoe. The tail came around to meet the nose.
He said the mount bolts suffered no damage. Amazing with all the forces
involved.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
I used to have a sheet with a diagram pointing out the differences. I will
see if I can find it. I also remember seeing diagrams or photos attached to
the Piper lift strut fork AD of several years ago requiring cut thread forks
being replaced with rolled thread forks. I posted this AD two or three years
ago but can't seem to find it now.
-john-
>
> I'll jump into this one, I took some classes once.... I recall rolled
> threads have more radius edges (points and valleys) which is created
> when the threads get formed by a die, where cut threads have sharper
> points and valleys from being cut. I also recall that a rolled thread,
> has a larger minor diameter (the diameter at the root of the thread),
> and the major diameter may also be a little larger than that of cut
> threads. This is because the material is not being cut away from the
> major diameter (shank), it's being re-located to another area of the
> bolt. The major diameter of the threaded portion (rolled threads) of the
> bolt grows in size, where on cut threads, the material gets cut away
> because as you cut, you remove some of the outer diameter. That's my
> recollection from that day in school in 1984, and it's not obvious to me
> how the threads were formed when I casually look at a bolt.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Ruse
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:06 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AN Hardware
>
>
>
>
> John (or anyone),
>
> Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled
> threads are
> preferred, correct?
>
> Steve Ruse
> N6383J - KFTW
>
> Quoting John Hofmann :
>
>>
>>
>> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when
> accurately
>> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
>> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save
> the
>> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two
> cents.
>>
>> -john-
>> John Hofmann
>> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain
> privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from
> disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please
> inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any
> printed copy. Thank you.
> ==============================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mark thomson <kr2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
you might want to make life easier on yourself by calling a couple of aircraft
distributers and they will be happy to send you FREE an A&N bolt chart so will
be able to match up what you need.........just a suggestion......
lots of good landings......Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BernadetteTS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>
>From: TBYH(at)aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>
>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
>in each specific
>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut
did you
>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?
Did you
>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you
use self
>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas
of the
>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how
accurately one
>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>Fred B.
May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going
to be stronger than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
bolts were overstressed anyway?
This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
DocFont
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time,
jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:
I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total was
2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
Jack,
I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most everyone on the
list would love to hear it, too. Why not just post it in the e-mail form to
the list ? Include your tail # in the subject line.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
I second that. I'd love to hear about it.
>In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time,
>jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:
>
>I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want.
>Total was 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
>
>Jack,
>I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most
>everyone on the list would love to hear it, too. Why not just post
>it in the e-mail form to the list ? Include your tail # in the
>subject line.
>
>Chuck G.
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitty <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
Jim Courtney,
Where do you fly??
I live in jackson,ms and fly at Pisgah.Email me off
list and let's chat!
Mitty
--- Jim Courtney wrote:
> Thanks for the great link about AN bolts!...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jim Courtney
> Florence, Mississippi
>
>
>
> jbciii5656(at)yahoo.com or Jbciii5656(at)aol.com
>
>
> John and Phyllis Smoyer
> wrote:
> I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can
> decode the AN nomenclature to some degree:
>
> The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the
> diameter of the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch.
> For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4
> bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
>
> The dash number identifies the length of the bolt,
> but the numbers don't correspond directly to the
> length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length
> as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10.
> Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire
> length, so you can run into problems there, also.
>
> I found this site on google, and it looks like it
> can tell you all you need to know.
> http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm. It even
> includes a down-loadable program.
>
> HOpe this helps.
>
> Best Regards,
> John Smoyer
>
>
> ---------------------------------
__________________________________
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitty <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
Me too. Please send it to me as well cuz i knwo next
year i'll go for sure!
--- Jeff Boatright wrote:
> I second that. I'd love to hear about it.
>
> >In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central
> Standard Time,
> >jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:
> >
> >I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you
> if you want.
> >Total was 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
> >
> >Jack,
> >I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am
> sure most
> >everyone on the list would love to hear it, too.
> Why not just post
> >it in the e-mail form to the list ? Include your
> tail # in the
> >subject line.
> >
> >Chuck G.
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
> Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA,
> USA
> Senior Editor, Molecular Vision,
> http://www.molvis.org/molvis
> mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Johnson" <ddjohn(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper |
Steve
The proper way to re-torque a prop is to looosen the bolts a lot and let it
sit for at lease an hour.
Then start over and torque to the proper setting.
Dale Mpls,
> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
> To:
> Date: 8/11/2005 1:51:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
AirCamper
>
>
> Speaking of re-torquing prop bolts, I need to do that before I go up
Saturday
> morning. I'd like to get the opinion of the experts here before I do so.
>
> To avoid overtightening of prop bolts when checking the torque, do you
> typicaly
> loosen the bolts a little (1/16 turn), then re-torque to spec? Or just
> set the
> wrench to the max recomended torque value and check the bolt? If you
don't
> loosen the bolts first, and they don't budge at the recommended torque
value,
> do you then loosen the bolts and re-torque (since the proper torque
reading is
> taken when the nut is moving)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Ruse
> N6383J - KFTW
>
> Quoting Dick Navratil :
>
> >
> >
> > When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave
me was
> > to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood
will
> > continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is
bolt
> > fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but
there
> > a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts
at the
> > firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double
as
> > cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
> >
> > Dick N.
> > Dick N.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> > Camper
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
> >> flew with me from Cleveland for
> >> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> >> gone. I found out that the builders
> >> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
> >> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> >> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> >> compression forces of the hub) and his
> >> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
> >> up front. He landed in a soybean
> >> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
> >> axle and flip him. Major damage, no
> >> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
> >> nearby. I say use whatever you want for
> >> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> >> stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> >> a hangar.
> >>
> >> Mike C.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
In a message dated 8/11/2005 12:43:49 PM Central Standard Time,
steve(at)wotelectronics.com writes:
Michael,
I'm curious what the failure mode was on these bolts. Surely they didn't just
break in tension. And they shouldn't have broken in shear unless they weren't
torqued properly (or maybe they loosened over time, but that shouldn't be due
to them being grade 8). Any idea? I'm not saying anyone should use
Grade 8 on
a prop, I use AN bolts and will continue to, but I'm curious what
characteristic
of the grade 8 bolts caused them to fail in this case.
Steve Ruse
I remember this occurance. They both neglected to re-torque the prop as
routine maintenance.
This is why I re-torque my prop at least 5 or 6 times in the course of a 12
month period, and record each date in my log book. I remove the safety wire,
loosen and break the bolt loose, then re-torque to the spec that I have written
on the inside of the skull cap...I think it is 15 to 17 ft. lbs. The method
that Dale mentioned, about loosening the bolts and letting it sit for an hour,
makes sense. It allows the wood to breath a little. I've never done it that
way, but I think I'll change my task planning to accomodate that method.
Don't forget to re-check the track.
Chuck G.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
One other small follow up point is that the Model A engine only has 4 prop bolts
so this becomes more critical.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper
In a message dated 8/11/2005 12:43:49 PM Central Standard Time, steve(at)wotelectronics.com
writes:
Michael,
I'm curious what the failure mode was on these bolts. Surely they didn't just
break in tension. And they shouldn't have broken in shear unless they weren't
torqued properly (or maybe they loosened over time, but that shouldn't be due
to them being grade 8). Any idea? I'm not saying anyone should use
Grade 8 on
a prop, I use AN bolts and will continue to, but I'm curious what
characteristic
of the grade 8 bolts caused them to fail in this case.
Steve Ruse
I remember this occurance. They both neglected to re-torque the prop as routine
maintenance.
This is why I re-torque my prop at least 5 or 6 times in the course of a 12 month
period, and record each date in my log book. I remove the safety wire, loosen
and break the bolt loose, then re-torque to the spec that I have written
on the inside of the skull cap...I think it is 15 to 17 ft. lbs. The method
that Dale mentioned, about loosening the bolts and letting it sit for an hour,
makes sense. It allows the wood to breath a little. I've never done it that
way, but I think I'll change my task planning to accomodate that method. Don't
forget to re-check the track.
Chuck G.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper |
Just one very important thing, to do: Once you finish the bolt torque process,
before safety the wire, check the actual tracking of the propeller tips...
Is not common to happen, but if the track is not correct, could make a vibration
on the engine... If out of tracking, retorque and/or shim,.
Hope this helps
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Dale Johnson wrote:
Steve
The proper way to re-torque a prop is to looosen the bolts a lot and let it
sit for at lease an hour.
Then start over and torque to the proper setting.
Dale Mpls,
> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Ruse
> To:
> Date: 8/11/2005 1:51:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
AirCamper
>
>
> Speaking of re-torquing prop bolts, I need to do that before I go up
Saturday
> morning. I'd like to get the opinion of the experts here before I do so.
>
> To avoid overtightening of prop bolts when checking the torque, do you
> typicaly
> loosen the bolts a little (1/16 turn), then re-torque to spec? Or just
> set the
> wrench to the max recomended torque value and check the bolt? If you
don't
> loosen the bolts first, and they don't budge at the recommended torque
value,
> do you then loosen the bolts and re-torque (since the proper torque
reading is
> taken when the nut is moving)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Ruse
> N6383J - KFTW
>
> Quoting Dick Navratil :
>
> >
> >
> > When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave
me was
> > to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood
will
> > continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is
bolt
> > fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but
there
> > a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts
at the
> > firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double
as
> > cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
> >
> > Dick N.
> > Dick N.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael D Cuy"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> > Camper
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
> >> flew with me from Cleveland for
> >> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> >> gone. I found out that the builders
> >> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
> >> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> >> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> >> compression forces of the hub) and his
> >> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
> >> up front. He landed in a soybean
> >> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
> >> axle and flip him. Major damage, no
> >> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
> >> nearby. I say use whatever you want for
> >> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> >> stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> >> a hangar.
> >>
> >> Mike C.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Volckmann <mike_cfi(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
Jack,
I also would really appreciate reading the journal of your trip. I think that
some of my favorite read for enjoyment reading were books such as "The Flight
of the Gin Viz".
Mike
Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time, jphillip(at)alarismed.com
writes:
I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total was 2,147
miles and 37 hours of flying.
Jack,
I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most everyone on the list
would love to hear it, too. Why not just post it in the e-mail form to the
list ? Include your tail # in the subject line.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
I doubt the prop failure was caused because the bolts
were Grade 8 rather than AN. More likely the failure
was due to improper torqueing and maintence. I have
seen AN bolts fail under the same circumstances. I do
believe that AN bolts have certain qualities that make
them important in certain applications, but to say
that they must be used in "All" applications (except
in certificated airplanes) is being a little
extremeist. I think common sense should prevail when
appying what type of bolt goes where. Not everything
on an airplane is a critical structural area and
therefore doesn't need the AN treatment. I do not
classify Grade 8 bolts as junk. They are quite strong
enough to be used in some areas of an aircraft. I
would not use them for prop bolts, for instance. To
keep things in perspective, we are building
experimental aircraft, not certificated aircraft and
do not have to meet standards that are not appropriate
for the type of airplanes we are building. We can
build safe airplanes by using good judgement and
common sense. The safe airplane is the goal we all
should be striving for. (And yes, I can afford AN
bolts when I decide I need them for the proper
application.)
Doc H
--- Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the
> Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back
> both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for
> their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let
> go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went
> down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle
> around his straight axle and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an
> open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you
> use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Paulsen" <dpaul(at)fidnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
Sorry to butt in on the hardware subject. Recently someone on the list was
looking for a Piet project that had much of the woodwork completed. Can
anyone remember who that was. Thanks - Dave Paulsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
>
>
> I doubt the prop failure was caused because the bolts
> were Grade 8 rather than AN. More likely the failure
> was due to improper torqueing and maintence. I have
> seen AN bolts fail under the same circumstances. I do
> believe that AN bolts have certain qualities that make
> them important in certain applications, but to say
> that they must be used in "All" applications (except
> in certificated airplanes) is being a little
> extremeist. I think common sense should prevail when
> appying what type of bolt goes where. Not everything
> on an airplane is a critical structural area and
> therefore doesn't need the AN treatment. I do not
> classify Grade 8 bolts as junk. They are quite strong
> enough to be used in some areas of an aircraft. I
> would not use them for prop bolts, for instance. To
> keep things in perspective, we are building
> experimental aircraft, not certificated aircraft and
> do not have to meet standards that are not appropriate
> for the type of airplanes we are building. We can
> build safe airplanes by using good judgement and
> common sense. The safe airplane is the goal we all
> should be striving for. (And yes, I can afford AN
> bolts when I decide I need them for the proper
> application.)
>
> Doc H
>
> --- Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the
>> Brockport, NY area flew with
>> me from Cleveland for
>> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back
>> both planes were
>> gone. I found out that the builders
>> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for
>> their
>> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
>> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let
>> go, loosening the
>> compression forces of the hub) and his
>> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went
>> down with no prop up
>> front. He landed in a soybean
>> field and the beans were high enough to tangle
>> around his straight axle and
>> flip him. Major damage, no
>> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an
>> open field nearby. I
>> say use whatever you want for
>> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you
>> use junk. If AN stuff
>> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
>> a hangar.
>>
>> Mike C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> browse
>> Subscriptions page,
>> FAQ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
Wagaero is always a rip off. I have ordered from them once in my life.
Since then I have learned that they are very high priced.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
>
> I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
>
> Guess how much...
>
> Up to $45 each.
>
> http://store.wagaero.com/
>
> Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
>
> Wow.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> D Cuy
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> Camper
>
>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
> with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
> and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
> I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.273, required 3, AWL -0.27, BAYES_00 -2.60,
J_CHICKENPOX_72 0.60)
Mitty wrote:
>
>
>Jim Courtney,
>Where do you fly??
>I live in jackson,ms and fly at Pisgah.Email me off
>list and let's chat!
>
>
>Mitty
>
>
Hey I got my commercial ticket in Jackson many years ago. Small world
________________________________________________________________________________
You only had to go to school for one day!No wonder you remember everything about
that day!Just pullin your wire ,haha!There is a reason why we are supposed to
use AN hardware.Why temp the Gods.Do as your told .For the little extra it costs,it
may save your life.Don't be a Titanic!
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan, John |
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: AN Hardware
I'll jump into this one, I took some classes once.... I recall rolled
threads have more radius edges (points and valleys) which is created
when the threads get formed by a die, where cut threads have sharper
points and valleys from being cut. I also recall that a rolled thread,
has a larger minor diameter (the diameter at the root of the thread),
and the major diameter may also be a little larger than that of cut
threads. This is because the material is not being cut away from the
major diameter (shank), it's being re-located to another area of the
bolt. The major diameter of the threaded portion (rolled threads) of the
bolt grows in size, where on cut threads, the material gets cut away
because as you cut, you remove some of the outer diameter. That's my
recollection from that day in school in 1984, and it's not obvious to me
how the threads were formed when I casually look at a bolt.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ruse
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AN Hardware
John (or anyone),
Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled
threads are
preferred, correct?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting John Hofmann :
>
>
> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when
accurately
> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save
the
> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two
cents.
>
> -john-
> John Hofmann
> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Wag Aero/sources |
Chris is absolutely right about Wag Aero---a total ripoff. Guys at the
airport have asked me to make cooling
eyebrows for Cubs and such since they saw that it really is expensive to
buy them thru Wag Aero and how cheaply
you can make them from dead soft .025" aluminum. That is just one example.
There have been many good posts on where to buy decent, reasonably priced
AN hardware and turnbuckles. As plans-built
builders we do have to be creative in finding our building materials like
many of you who have dealt with McCormack Lumber
in Madison.
For AN hardware and sheet steel and aluminum I used (for us
middle-west-to-east-coast Piet nuts, Dillsburg Aeroworks for
all of my hardware--including lift strut/streamlined materials. You have
to know what you want when you call--do the homework'
in the Bingelis books or in the AN sections of Wicks and or ASS catalogs
and give them a try. Dillsburg Aero, 717-432-4589.
They ship same day UPS and you pay after the shipment arrives. It is an
'old-school' operation, but very efficient.
Mike C.
PS--as posted earlier...used whatever type/grade of hardware/steel/aluminum
you want but research it well before you
substitute. There are plenty of other things that can bring a Pietenpol
down--I'd rather not gamble on adding more risk
factors to the plane
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
Hey,
Re the hardware discussion. On my "A", I'm using a hub adaptor with four bolts
to the engine, and six to the prop. The four bolts to the crank need to be cap
screws, and I absolutely could not find any "AN" cap screws, so I'm using the
best quality ones I could find from a bolt supplier.
Where could one find AN cap screws
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 in NX899JP |
You asked for it. Bear in mind that this account was writen for family members
who don't necessarily know anything about Pietenpols.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
>
> From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
> Date: 2005/08/11 Thu PM 05:11:32 EDT
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time,
> jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:
> I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total was
> 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
> Jack,
> I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most everyone on the
> list would love to hear it, too. Why not just post it in the e-mail form to
> the list ? Include your tail # in the subject line.
>
> Chuck G.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | drive pins on Model A prop hub |
Douwe--- I've heard of guys not having drive pins on Model A hubs with bad
results. I'm sure Ken Perkins and such
know you need them but some A builders aren't aware of this.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear design sanity check |
Just wanted to verify my landing gear layout before I start cutting the
tubing. If anyone has a chance this weekend would you measure the distance
from the front landing gear fitting (or bottom of the floor plywood) to the
ground on your Piet?
I came up with 32" to get a 12 degree deck angle and want to make sure I am
not mis-calculating something.
Thanks
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear design sanity check |
Rick
I'll measure mine this weekend but I just wanted to give you a reminder of the
more important measurement than the angle. Make sure that all said and done,
with the tail up on level, that you will have 9"+ ground clearance for the prop.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 10:28 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear design sanity check
Just wanted to verify my landing gear layout before I start cutting the tubing.
If anyone has a chance this weekend would you measure the distance from the
front landing gear fitting (or bottom of the floor plywood) to the ground on
your Piet?
I came up with 32" to get a 12 degree deck angle and want to make sure I am not
mis-calculating something.
Thanks
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DONALD COOLEY <adonjr(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Hello Group,
Browsing in a woodworking store, I discovered a nifty Drill Guide Kit (part
#140876) which allows the user to drill holes vertically on flat and round surfaces,
and at a 45 degree angle on corners. It consists of an acrylic base
and six steel guides ranging from 3/16 to 1/2 inch diameter. At $12 it is a useful
addition to any woodworker's shop. The store is called the Wood Gallery
in Rancho Cordova, (Sacramento), California. They ship, too. thewoodgallery(at)earthlink.net
Keep the sawdust flying! Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
Don,
Got put onto the idea when I started building. I had made my own, but this sound
perfect.
Yes that is one of those little, very useful tools that makes a good job better.
Nice clean holes, without being eggshaped from a "do over"
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: DONALD COOLEY
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Drill Guide
Hello Group,
Browsing in a woodworking store, I discovered a nifty Drill Guide Kit (part
#140876) which allows the user to drill holes vertically on flat and round
surfaces, and at a 45 degree angle on corners. It consists of an acrylic base
and six steel guides ranging from 3/16 to 1/2 inch diameter. At $12 it is a
useful addition to any woodworker's shop. The store is called the Wood Gallery
in Rancho Cordova, (Sacramento), California. They ship, too. thewoodgallery(at)earthlink.net
Keep the sawdust flying! Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 in NX899JP |
Jack,
Great account.
I'm envious of the "Man with Iron Cheeks" :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 in NX899JP
> You asked for it. Bear in mind that this account was writen for family
members who don't necessarily know anything about Pietenpols.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> >
> > From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
> > Date: 2005/08/11 Thu PM 05:11:32 EDT
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05
> >
> > In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time,
> > jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:
> > I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total
was
> > 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
> > Jack,
> > I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most everyone
on the
> > list would love to hear it, too. Why not just post it in the e-mail
form to
> > the list ? Include your tail # in the subject line.
> >
> > Chuck G.
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net> |
I have a wooden prop which I plan to install on a Model-A engine in my Aircamper.
The drillings that were in the hub when I got it just don't look right. They're
a little out of round and I don't think the centers are exactly on-the
money (because of the difficulty I have in getting the prop onto the hub). I'd
like to hear what you fellows recommend to correct this. I'm thinking of epoxying
a close-fitting hardwood plug in each hole and redrilling with a Forester
bit, using a vertical mill to locate the hole centers. One could also redrill
the holes and epoxy a steel insert in each hole, then drill the inserts. Whatd'yathink???...Carl
Vought
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Lyscars" <alyscars(at)maine.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 in NX899JP |
Dear Jack,
Thank you, very much, for putting your flight into words. With your
permission, I'll share your experience with others who want to know what
flying's all about.
On day I, too, will write to you about my Aircamper flight from Maine to
OSH. Until that day arrrives, my heart and admiration goes out to you and
all of the fellows who have flown "The Leg".
Very truly yours,
Alan Lyscars
----- Original Message -----
From: <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 in NX899JP
> You asked for it. Bear in mind that this account was writen for family
members who don't necessarily know anything about Pietenpols.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TRichmo9(at)aol.com |
don i have a set of those drill guides mine go vdown to a 1/16
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | drive lugs on "A" |
Mike,
Thanks! Perkins adaptor does have the holes for the "A" drive lugs.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Bill Church ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Church
Lists: Pietenpol-List
Subject: Brodhead 2005
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/bchurch@canadianrogers.com.08.13.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Turrell" <emtyit(at)3web.net> |
| Subject: | Wheels on Dennis Halls Sky Scout |
Just admiring Bill Church's photos of Brodhead and wondered if anyone can tell
me where Dennis Hall got the wheels and tires for his Scout.I love the look and
would appreciate any info ,or web sites to steer me in the right direction.I
like the spoked wheel but the solid wheel would be my choice.Also is there any
down side to using them? Thanks, Mike
.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Sky Scout |
Not sure if you mean "solid looking" wheels or if you're thinking those are actual
solid metal rims......
But those are wire wheels with fabric covering. Really neat looking.
Jim in Plano
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Turrell
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels on Dennis Halls Sky Scout
Just admiring Bill Church's photos of Brodhead and wondered if anyone can tell
me where Dennis Hall got the wheels and tires for his Scout.I love the look
and would appreciate any info ,or web sites to steer me in the right direction.I
like the spoked wheel but the solid wheel would be my choice.Also is there
any down side to using them? Thanks, Mike
.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Turrell" <emtyit(at)3web.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout |
Thankyou Jim,and yes I thought they were possibly solid aluminum rims.Live and
learn ! How is the fabric attached if I might inquire ?
Regards,Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout |
Well, I'm looking forward to getting the specific "how do they do that?" details
from someone who has actually done it!
Seems part of the process involves lapping the fabric up and over the rim, into
the area where the wheel bead pushes out againt the inside of the rim (when you
inflate the tire), then shrinking the fabric......
Someone (Bill Church, I think) told me you let all the air out of the tire, squeeze
the tire over to one side of the rim and lap the fabric up and over the exposed
side of the rim, attaching the fabric inside the rim. Then do the other
side, fill up the tire with air then heat shrink the fabric. That must be what
gives it that nice, smooth, "almost aluminum" look. I'm assuming some kind
of ring would be attached to the fabric in the axle area to give it some shape
and control the size of the opening in that area.
I've only "watched the video" so it would not be wise to put much merit in any
of this....but maybe some part of it is right!!! :-)
I've spent a LOT of time powdercoating my wheels/spokes/nipples/etc black so I
don't really want to cover it up now.....but after seeing Dennis' wheels, I'm
wrestling with the idea! Those covered wheels look fantastic!
JM
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Turrell
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout
Thankyou Jim,and yes I thought they were possibly solid aluminum rims.Live and
learn ! How is the fabric attached if I might inquire ?
Regards,Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Sky Scout |
The rims might be from Coker Tire and the tires are definitely form Coker tire,
shaved down.
cHris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Turrell
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels on Dennis Halls Sky Scout
Just admiring Bill Church's photos of Brodhead and wondered if anyone can tell
me where Dennis Hall got the wheels and tires for his Scout.I love the look
and would appreciate any info ,or web sites to steer me in the right direction.I
like the spoked wheel but the solid wheel would be my choice.Also is there
any down side to using them? Thanks, Mike
.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout |
I believe they were solid aluminum rims from Coker.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Turrell
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout
Thankyou Jim,and yes I thought they were possibly solid aluminum rims.Live and
learn ! How is the fabric attached if I might inquire ?
Regards,Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout |
I have a scan of a page from "WW1 Aero" on how they did the wheel covers in
1915 (thanks to the PFA for compiling them! ;-) They show clips sewn into
the edge of the fabric cover about every couple inches -- these are hooked
into 1/8" holes drilled into the rim side wall. In consideration to the
folks with dial-up modems (I'm also one of them! ;-), contact me for a
copy -- the scan is about 450 KB.
Bear in mind that this also adds surface area forward of the C.G., so you
might be more spin-prone -)
(this was also something else that they discovered in the early days !!)
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Turrell
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheels on Dennis Halls Scout
Thankyou Jim,and yes I thought they were possibly solid aluminum rims.Live
and learn ! How is the fabric attached if I might inquire ?
Regards,Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Covered Wheel Crosswind Loading? |
Does anyone have any info on what additional loading is placed on an
Aircamper when spoked wheels are fabric covered? I like the streamling effect in
forward movement but It seems that covering two-each large diameter wheels at
such a low spot in the profile could change the landing charateristics in
crosswinds and make negotiating gusting winds a new experience.
Thanks,
Roy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheels covers -- added thought |
To all the folks with the wheel cover info -- when you do the folded tape
around the clips & openings, cut yourself some bias strips (+ or - 45 degree
or order the bias tape) and sew a line of stitching down the center (where
you want it to fold) -- this can make the process a bit easier (also,
remember that when you get done, the wheel covers will be on opposite sides
of the airplane, so you can have one be better than the other!! ;-)
Mike C. a once & future(?) "seamster"
Pretty Prairie, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
How would one shave off the tread of a tire?
I know it's done in WW1 repro circles all the time, I've just never heard exactly
how. I think i heard of a angle grinder being used?
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
It might be easier to look for a treadles tire.Somebody may sell them.It
seems a shame to waist all that rubber just for a look.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Subject: Pietenpol-List: shaving tires
How would one shave off the tread of a tire?
I know it's done in WW1 repro circles all the time, I've just never
heard exactly how. I think i heard of a angle grinder being used?
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
I have heard that this is accomplished with the use of a tire lathe. I
don't know what kind of tire facility has a tire lathe.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 8:10 AM
To: pietenpolgroup
Subject: Pietenpol-List: shaving tires
=09
=09
How would one shave off the tread of a tire=3F
I know it's done in WW1 repro circles all the time, I've just
never heard exactly how. I think i heard of a angle grinder being used=3F
Douwe
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: shaving tires |
Tire shaving can be done at some tire facilities who cater to drag racers
and oval track racers.
Here is a list of vendors across the United States who can shave tires...
_www.performancemarket.com/tireeq.htm_
(http://www.performancemarket.com/tireeq.htm)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barnstmr(at)aol.com |
jcox(at)extremecomposites.com, kmartin(at)ydc.org, nat(at)basdensteel.com
| Subject: | Fwd: New Boeing 888 pictures |
pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com, dicks(at)usd266.com,
martyinthecountry(at)yahoo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Bowden <tbowden(at)ramaircraft.com>
Subject: FW: New Boeing 888 pictures
[Original message attached...]
Subject: FW: New Boeing 888 pictures
From: "Terry Bowden" <tbowden(at)ramaircraft.com>
I want to work on this program!
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Toliver
Subject: FW: New Boeing 888 pictures
________________________________
From: Addison Pemberton [mailto:apemberton(at)scanivalve.com]
Subject: RE: New Boeing 888 pictures
Pete
I love it very funny. Addison
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Pavey [mailto:peterpavey(at)blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 7:26 AM
To: Addison Pemberton
Subject: Fw: New Boeing 888
Subject: New Boeing 888
Boeing have just announced the replacement for the 727....
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
http://www.5iantlavalamp.com/"/>
I want to work on this
program!
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Toliver
Subject: FW: New Boeing 888
pictures
From:=20Addison
Pemberton [mailto:apemberton(at)scanivalve.com]
Subject: RE: New Boeing 888
pictures
Pete
I=20love it
very funny. Addison
-----Original
Message-----
From: Peter Pavey
[mailto:peterpavey(at)blueyonder.co.uk]
2005 7:26
AM
Subject: Fw: New Boeing 888
Subject: New Boeing
888
Boeing
have just
announced the replacement for the 727....
![]()
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Torque tube bearings? |
Hi All,
I'm in the process of fabricating my control sticks and torque tube. I
was planning to build them to the plans using bearings made of 1 inch
tubing that I have reamed to be a smooth fit on the 7/8 in torque tube.
I've noticed several web sites with pictures where the builder has used
ball-bearings in manufactured bearing carriers for the mount of both the
torque tube and the bellcrank for the elevator. I'd like a few
opinions pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs ball bearings, and also
an idea where the ball bearings could be purchased. Thanks in advance
for the input.
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
Wing ribs built, fuselage sides joined
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque tube bearings? |
Ben,
I made them per the 1929 plans, and they work great!
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Charvet" <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube bearings?
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm in the process of fabricating my control sticks and torque tube. I
> was planning to build them to the plans using bearings made of 1 inch
> tubing that I have reamed to be a smooth fit on the 7/8 in torque tube.
> I've noticed several web sites with pictures where the builder has used
> ball-bearings in manufactured bearing carriers for the mount of both the
> torque tube and the bellcrank for the elevator. I'd like a few
> opinions pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs ball bearings, and also
> an idea where the ball bearings could be purchased. Thanks in advance
> for the input.
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
> Wing ribs built, fuselage sides joined
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Torque tube bearings? |
In a message dated 8/15/2005 8:55:14 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
I'd like a few
> opinions pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs ball bearings
Ben,
I did mine the plans method, too. They are simple to build, inexpensive,
light weight, and work just fine. Use 2 drops of oil, twice a year.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Green" <mmml(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque tube bearings? |
Ben,
I only just finnished mine two weeks ago and built em to plans. Nice and
simple and lightweight. You'll hear on the list over and over again "build
them light"!
Mike Green
Romsey
Victoria
AUSTRALIA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Charvet" <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube bearings?
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm in the process of fabricating my control sticks and torque tube. I
> was planning to build them to the plans using bearings made of 1 inch
> tubing that I have reamed to be a smooth fit on the 7/8 in torque tube.
> I've noticed several web sites with pictures where the builder has used
> ball-bearings in manufactured bearing carriers for the mount of both the
> torque tube and the bellcrank for the elevator. I'd like a few opinions
> pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs ball bearings, and also an idea
> where the ball bearings could be purchased. Thanks in advance for the
> input.
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
> Wing ribs built, fuselage sides joined
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque tube bearings? |
Ben,
I built them with the tube bearings as in the plans.
I welded a nut, drilled a hole and fitted a grease
zerk on the bearing to make lubrication easier. These
bearings are strong and light and work very well.
Doc H
--- Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/15/2005 8:55:14 PM Central
> Standard Time,
> wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
> I'd like a few
> > opinions pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs
> ball bearings
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Torque tube bearings? |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Ditto for me. I used ball bearing pulleys, but no ball bearings on the
torque tube.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube bearings?
In a message dated 8/15/2005 8:55:14 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
I'd like a few
> opinions pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs ball bearings
Ben,
I did mine the plans method, too. They are simple to build,
inexpensive, light weight, and work just fine. Use 2 drops of oil,
twice a year.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chris cummins <cccstandard(at)yahoo.com> |
What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40 or 42.
Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
Chris Cummins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Chris,
I've got a new Sensenich 72 x 40, which is supposed to be a climb prop
for an A65. I get about 2000 rpm static out of it, and cannot get it to
the redline (2300 RPM) in level flight with full throttle. I also have
a St. Croix which was supposedly made for a Pietenpol and it is a 74 x
36. I haven't tried it yet, but intend to do so shortly. I am not
impressed with my plane's ability to climb on a hot day with a heavy
load.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject:
What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or 42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
Chris Cummins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
The word I have is 42 p and 72 length gives 2150 rpm 70 -71 mph at
cruise 85-87 tops.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject:
What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or 42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
Chris Cummins
________________________________________________________________________________
I'm looking for anyone who is using an 80 hp Franklin to see what wooden
prop they chose for their operations.So far I havn't had a good
response.I have info on an 85 hp using a 72X43 but not sure if this is
good for my app.Thanks.
________________________________
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Prop
Chris,
I've got a new Sensenich 72 x 40, which is supposed to be a climb prop
for an A65. I get about 2000 rpm static out of it, and cannot get it to
the redline (2300 RPM) in level flight with full throttle. I also have
a St. Croix which was supposedly made for a Pietenpol and it is a 74 x
36. I haven't tried it yet, but intend to do so shortly. I am not
impressed with my plane's ability to climb on a hot day with a heavy
load.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject:
What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or 42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
Chris Cummins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
I have a 80 hp Franklin which is now a 75hp because I needed new pistons and
couldn't find 7:1 compression replacements. I had to go with 6.3:1 which
drops it to 75 hp. It's not in the air yet but I just bought my prop from
Tennessee props. They recomended a 72 X 42. Since the engine is similar in
displacement to the Continental A65 it makes sence to me that they would be
the same..The Franklin puts out 65hp at about the same rpm as the
Continental but is 75 or 80 hp at 2500 rpm depending on the compression
ratio..Sensenich recomended a 72X43 but their price was out of my budget
zone..I decide it would be better to error on the low side than to try to
swing too much prop for the engine. The tennessee prop has a fairly wide
blade so maybe that's where the difference is between the two
recomendations..Like I said I haven't flown it yet but did do my
homework..Ed Grentzer
>From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Prop
>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:16:40 -0400
>
>I'm looking for anyone who is using an 80 hp Franklin to see what wooden
>prop they chose for their operations.So far I havn't had a good
>response.I have info on an 85 hp using a 72X43 but not sure if this is
>good for my app.Thanks.
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Phillips, Jack
>Sent: August 16, 2005 8:10 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Prop
>
>
>Chris,
>
>
>I've got a new Sensenich 72 x 40, which is supposed to be a climb prop
>for an A65. I get about 2000 rpm static out of it, and cannot get it to
>the redline (2300 RPM) in level flight with full throttle. I also have
>a St. Croix which was supposedly made for a Pietenpol and it is a 74 x
>36. I haven't tried it yet, but intend to do so shortly. I am not
>impressed with my plane's ability to climb on a hot day with a heavy
>load.
>
>
>Jack Phillips
>
>NX899JP
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
>cummins
>Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:02 AM
>To: Pietenpol-List Digest Server
>Subject:
>
>
>What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
>or 42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
>
>Chris Cummins
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Torque tube bearings? |
Hi Ben..If you're building your control tube to plans useing 1020 or mild
steel all is cool..But if your're useing 4130 there is one welding author
who says you shouldn't braze 4130 because it can cause it to split..He
recomends welding it instead..I learned this after brazing mine with no
problems and I've talked to guys who have flying Piets with brazed 4130..But
"THEY" say you shouldn't as it can weaken the metal...Ed Grentzer
>From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque tube bearings?
>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:16:31 -0400
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>I'm in the process of fabricating my control sticks and torque tube. I was
>planning to build them to the plans using bearings made of 1 inch tubing
>that I have reamed to be a smooth fit on the 7/8 in torque tube. I've
>noticed several web sites with pictures where the builder has used
>ball-bearings in manufactured bearing carriers for the mount of both the
>torque tube and the bellcrank for the elevator. I'd like a few opinions
>pro/con of doing it Bernard's way, vs ball bearings, and also an idea where
>the ball bearings could be purchased. Thanks in advance for the input.
>
>Ben Charvet
>Mims, Fl
>
>Wing ribs built, fuselage sides joined
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Thanks very much for the return info Ed,I appreciate it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Prop
I have a 80 hp Franklin which is now a 75hp because I needed new pistons
and
couldn't find 7:1 compression replacements. I had to go with 6.3:1 which
drops it to 75 hp. It's not in the air yet but I just bought my prop
from
Tennessee props. They recomended a 72 X 42. Since the engine is similar
in
displacement to the Continental A65 it makes sence to me that they would
be
the same..The Franklin puts out 65hp at about the same rpm as the
Continental but is 75 or 80 hp at 2500 rpm depending on the compression
ratio..Sensenich recomended a 72X43 but their price was out of my budget
zone..I decide it would be better to error on the low side than to try
to
swing too much prop for the engine. The tennessee prop has a fairly wide
blade so maybe that's where the difference is between the two
recomendations..Like I said I haven't flown it yet but did do my
homework..Ed Grentzer
>From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Prop
>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:16:40 -0400
>
>I'm looking for anyone who is using an 80 hp Franklin to see what
wooden
>prop they chose for their operations.So far I havn't had a good
>response.I have info on an 85 hp using a 72X43 but not sure if this is
>good for my app.Thanks.
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Phillips, Jack
>Sent: August 16, 2005 8:10 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Prop
>
>
>Chris,
>
>
>I've got a new Sensenich 72 x 40, which is supposed to be a climb prop
>for an A65. I get about 2000 rpm static out of it, and cannot get it
to
>the redline (2300 RPM) in level flight with full throttle. I also have
>a St. Croix which was supposedly made for a Pietenpol and it is a 74 x
>36. I haven't tried it yet, but intend to do so shortly. I am not
>impressed with my plane's ability to climb on a hot day with a heavy
>load.
>
>
>Jack Phillips
>
>NX899JP
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
>cummins
>Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:02 AM
>To: Pietenpol-List Digest Server
>Subject:
>
>
>What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
>or 42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
>
>Chris Cummins
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about a
72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
Mike C.
>What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40 or
>42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
>Chris Cummins
>
>__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
I have two props for my A-75. One is a 68x38, the other is a 68x40. I get
about 3,350rpm static with the 68x40, and about 50 more with the 68x38. The
68x40 gives me about 70mph in cruise (~2,500rpm), the 68x38 gives me about
65mph.
Solo climb is fair even on a hot day, maybe 400fpm. With two people it
drops to
probably 200-250. I don't have a VSI, so those are estimated numbers.
Takeoff
is very short, particularly with a headwind of anything more than 8-10mph.
Steve Ruse
N6383J - Dallas, TX & Norman, OK
Quoting Michael D Cuy :
>
>
> Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about a
> 72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>> What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a
>> 40 or 42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
>> Chris Cummins
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
I carved my own 72-42 using aa a pattern what was left of a Sensenich on
my A-65. I now get 80 mph and slightly longer takeoff rolls. I think
it is really performing like a 72-44.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about
a
72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
Mike C.
>What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or
>42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
>Chris Cummins
>
>__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Mr. Steve,
I had an A-65 Pietenpol and the only way I could have seen 80MPH was to have
had someone pushing, flying straight down and just lieing about it. Would
August 03, 2005 - August 16, 2005
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ep