Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-eq
August 16, 2005 - September 01, 2005
appreciate if you would pass your secret around to those of us suffering from a
bad case of the slows. Could be this 220 ft density altitude.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
Hi Corky,
I could be lying about it, I've had to repent of things I've said in
ignorance before....
In any case I was flying at 74 mph with the sensenich, and now I'm
indicating 80 in cruise with full throttle. I think I checked it with
the GPS once. In either case, slow is slow, and 6 mph is usually chewed
up with winds anyway. Autos on the freeway still pass me by. I am
flying at 5-7000' regularly. Our field elevation is 4500'. Maybe my
true airspeed is getting a boost being so close to the jet stream!
/Silly Nonsense/-o
Steve E
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
Mr. Steve,
I had an A-65 Pietenpol and the only way I could have seen 80MPH was to
have had someone pushing, flying straight down and just lieing about it.
Would appreciate if you would pass your secret around to those of us
suffering from a bad case of the slows. Could be this 220 ft density
altitude.
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 8/16/2005 7:13:59 AM Central Standard Time,
harvey.rule(at)bell.ca writes:
The word I have is 42 p and 72 length gives 2150 rpm 70 -71 mph at cruise
85-87 tops.
That's about what I get from my homebuilt 72 X 42 prop, with Cont. A65
engine. I added aerodynamic fairings to the gear legs, and jury struts, and now
I
have to hold some forward stick pressure. I plan on removing the fixed trim
tabs on the flippers. The fairings helped clean up the parasite drag, a little
bit.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
Mike and everyone.
For top speed, I've found that on the Piet the yaw is very critical. If the
ball is a little off and you step on it, you can just feel a big change in
speed. Also, at altitude if I push the stick forward slightly to get it
"on step" (don't know if that's a real term , or we made it up) it really
cranks.
You'd swear it was diving/losing altitude but it's not. It flattens the low
pressure arch over the wing and keeps you there.
Anyone else do this?
Going like a rocket in NJ :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
> Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about a
> 72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
> >What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or
> >42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
> >Chris Cummins
> >
> >__________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few years and then
installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a hot day with a full
load.
The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a Sensenich 72CK42.
I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at the same revs. At this power
setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and full throttle in level flight
would give about 2250 rpm (short of the rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps
78 mph tops. The Pietenpol is a bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft
I once owned would top out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
2150 rpm.
Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48 (the pitch numbers
for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty good, but the cruise
dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise
speed increased to that of the 72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse pitch-wise and
the climb rate suffered accordingly.
With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise with full load
it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that was available to just
maintain height! (The average elevation around here is about 2400' asl and
the density altitude can get up there on a hot summer day.)
Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance of my Pietenpol--particularly
in the climb, but it still is no speedster at about 80 mph
with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However it is particularly nice
to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with only 65 hp.
A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A 65-powered Pietenpol
for several years and said he was able to optimize its performance rather
easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a mishap and replaced it with a custom
wooden one on the C 85 he has since installed. (I suspect he didn't like the
appearance of the WD prop on the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from Manitoba, Canada has
one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience with it to this list.
Has anyone else tried one?
Graham Hansen
(Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Walt,
Your are right-on-step! It worked well in my 140, usually increasing the speed
5 mph. Sometimes when it wasn't stepping I could just deploy the flaps a smidge
to get her going.
Jack Textor
________________________________
Mike and everyone.
For top speed, I've found that on the Piet the yaw is very critical. If the
ball is a little off and you step on it, you can just feel a big change in
speed. Also, at altitude if I push the stick forward slightly to get it
"on step" (don't know if that's a real term , or we made it up) it really
cranks.
You'd swear it was diving/losing altitude but it's not. It flattens the low
pressure arch over the wing and keeps you there.
Anyone else do this?
Going like a rocket in NJ :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
> Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about a
> 72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
> >What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or
> >42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
> >Chris Cummins
> >
> >__________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Ruse" <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
I've noticed that putting the nose down a little will increase speed without
losing altitude. I've dropped the nose a little before, watched the speed
go up and stay up (just a few MPH). I'll look at the altimeter after a few
minutes, expecting to have lost a couple hundred feet, but I haven't lost
any.
I'll have to play with the yaw as well. I have to hold right rudder in
climb, I need to add a little more trim tab to help keep my yaw down, I'm
not always on top of it as much as I could be.
Steve Ruse
N6383J
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt
evans
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
Mike and everyone.
For top speed, I've found that on the Piet the yaw is very critical. If the
ball is a little off and you step on it, you can just feel a big change in
speed. Also, at altitude if I push the stick forward slightly to get it
"on step" (don't know if that's a real term , or we made it up) it really
cranks.
You'd swear it was diving/losing altitude but it's not. It flattens the low
pressure arch over the wing and keeps you there.
Anyone else do this?
Going like a rocket in NJ :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
> Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about a
> 72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
> >What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or
> >42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
> >Chris Cummins
> >
> >__________________________________________________
>
>
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 8/16/2005 7:52:20 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
Mike and everyone.
For top speed, I've found that on the Piet the yaw is very critical. If the
ball is a little off and you step on it, you can just feel a big change in
speed. Also, at altitude if I push the stick forward slightly to get it
"on step" (don't know if that's a real term , or we made it up) it really
cranks.
You'd swear it was diving/losing altitude but it's not. It flattens the low
pressure arch over the wing and keeps you there.
Anyone else do this?
Going like a rocket in NJ :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
Yes, I've found this to be true, too. Especially transitioning from climb to
cruise. I always leave full power in until cruise speed is reached, then
adjust power till no pressure is needed on the stick to maintain altitude. It
planes out at about 63 mph indicated, which is actually about 72 or 73 mph.
Some day I'll have to try to correct the ASI by adding an O-ring in front of the
static port on the pitot / static probe.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 8/16/2005 10:29:12 AM Central Standard Time,
steve(at)wotelectronics.com writes:
I have two props for my A-75. One is a 68x38, the other is a 68x40. I get
about 3,350rpm static with the 68x40, and about 50 more with the 68x38. The
68x40 gives me about 70mph in cruise (~2,500rpm), the 68x38 gives me about
65mph.
Steve,
Do you really get 3350 static rpm with those props ? That sounds very high
for these small engines. I know they really crank 'em up to race with, but it
shortens the life of the engine.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
So you would say that the 72X43 is my best choice for the 80 hp Franklin
rather than the 72X42 right?(wood prop)
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Hansen
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few years
and then installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a hot
day with a full load.
The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a
Sensenich 72CK42. I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at the
same revs. At this power setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and
full throttle in level flight would give about 2250 rpm (short of the
rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps 78 mph tops. The Pietenpol is a
bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft I once owned would top
out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
2150 rpm.
Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48 (the
pitch numbers for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty
good, but the cruise dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one
cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise speed increased to that of the
72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse
pitch-wise and the climb rate suffered accordingly.
With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise with
full load it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that was
available to just maintain height! (The average elevation around here is
about 2400' asl and the density altitude can get up there on a hot
summer day.)
Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance of
my Pietenpol--particularly in the climb, but it still is no speedster at
about 80 mph with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However it is
particularly nice to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with only
65 hp.
A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A
65-powered Pietenpol for several years and said he was able to optimize
its performance rather easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a mishap
and replaced it with a custom wooden one on the C 85 he has since
installed. (I suspect he didn't like the appearance of the WD prop on
the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from Manitoba,
Canada has one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience with it
to this list. Has anyone else tried one?
Graham Hansen
(Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Work proceeding slowly but surely.Jury struts are now installed and
braising wire lugs but I think I'll leave the braising wires till later
since I have to move in that area quite a bit yet,they would just get in
the way.I have to replace the plastic nylon tubing from the oil pressure
gauge since the AME said that if it ever melted then I would have oil
feeding a fire.Not a good situation.I have yet to reinstall the throttle
/rich,lean control to the left side.I also have to replace the gas shut
off valve and install an emergency shut off control.I have to cut that
part of the wing off over the rear cockpit and install a hinge for flop
over.I have to install a stirrup of some sort in order to get my
stealthy little bod in the plane.I seen some good examples on this web
and others.I havn't up my mind yet as to which method to use.I still
have to put leather on the horizontal stab leading edge for the cable
drag and I have to replace all the cones at the exit points for the rear
control cables.I have to make one up for the underside of the wing on
the right side as well since they are bigger than the other exit
cones.I'm not using the same size all around.The ones that Spruce sent
me where much smaller.I think they only have one size to fit all.Funny
things they are too ;you have to cut out the part where the cable goes.I
would have thought that part would already be cut out.I've gone around
the whole plane and touched up the painting where it needed it so it
looks real good now especially if your about 10 feet away from her.Even
using exactly the same colour ,it's mighty hard to match especially
since this plane has taken so long to build.Seat belts are all in and
looking good.The instrument panel is still hanging loose till I can get
that 1/8th copper tubing from Spruce.So as you can see,I'm making
progress but I need time to get at her.I'm taking some days off this
month and next hopefully I can finish before the snow flys.I don't have
skiis for her so she will sit till spring .The N3 Pup has aquired a
rebuilt 503 which has yet to be installed.I know what your thinking,the
guys lost it ,regressing from 4 stroke to 2 stroke but that is the only
solution I can see since the power to weight ratio is not condusive to
my needs.You do what you have to do.I also have yet to repair the bent
rods but the AME I'm working with seems to think that it's a piece of
cake and the rod can be rose welded in order to make it worthy. Lots of
work!I need to retire to get all this done but then I wouldn't have the
money coming in to get it done either.Delemas,delemas.If I can ge the
Peit done just before the snow flys then I may have time to get the N3
done and I'll fly that all winter since she is enclosed.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Hansen
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few years
and then installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a hot
day with a full load.
The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a
Sensenich 72CK42. I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at the
same revs. At this power setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and
full throttle in level flight would give about 2250 rpm (short of the
rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps 78 mph tops. The Pietenpol is a
bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft I once owned would top
out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
2150 rpm.
Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48 (the
pitch numbers for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty
good, but the cruise dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one
cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise speed increased to that of the
72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse
pitch-wise and the climb rate suffered accordingly.
With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise with
full load it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that was
available to just maintain height! (The average elevation around here is
about 2400' asl and the density altitude can get up there on a hot
summer day.)
Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance of
my Pietenpol--particularly in the climb, but it still is no speedster at
about 80 mph with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However it is
particularly nice to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with only
65 hp.
A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A
65-powered Pietenpol for several years and said he was able to optimize
its performance rather easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a mishap
and replaced it with a custom wooden one on the C 85 he has since
installed. (I suspect he didn't like the appearance of the WD prop on
the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from Manitoba,
Canada has one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience with it
to this list. Has anyone else tried one?
Graham Hansen
(Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: group photo at Brodhead with Javier |
KEN ! So sorry for the ID difficulty> Glad to hear you surfaced. Great
to meet you in person at Brodhead.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com> |
Steve, You will need a little Right Rudder in a climb. Trim for the speed at
which you will spend most of your time at--usually in cruise.
Jim Dallas
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Ruse<mailto:steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:47 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
I've noticed that putting the nose down a little will increase speed without
losing altitude. I've dropped the nose a little before, watched the speed
go up and stay up (just a few MPH). I'll look at the altimeter after a few
minutes, expecting to have lost a couple hundred feet, but I haven't lost
any.
I'll have to play with the yaw as well. I have to hold right rudder in
climb, I need to add a little more trim tab to help keep my yaw down, I'm
not always on top of it as much as I could be.
Steve Ruse
N6383J
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt
evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 PM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
Mike and everyone.
For top speed, I've found that on the Piet the yaw is very critical. If the
ball is a little off and you step on it, you can just feel a big change in
speed. Also, at altitude if I push the stick forward slightly to get it
"on step" (don't know if that's a real term , or we made it up) it really
cranks.
You'd swear it was diving/losing altitude but it's not. It flattens the low
pressure arch over the wing and keeps you there.
Anyone else do this?
Going like a rocket in NJ :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov<mailto:Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>>
To: >
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
>
> Chris- I use a wood 72-42 and it gives good climb performance and about a
> 72 mph cruise speed at 2150 rpm.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
> >What pitch prop are you running with an A65 ? I am leaning towards a 40
or
> >42. Not sure which one will give me the RPM I desire.
> >Chris Cummins
> >
> >__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
What rpm is the 80 hp franklin rated at?
Chris
>
> From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
> Date: 2005/08/17 Wed AM 07:43:49 EDT
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
> So you would say that the 72X43 is my best choice for the 80 hp Franklin
> rather than the 72X42 right?(wood prop)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Hansen
> Sent: August 16, 2005 9:36 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
>
>
> I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few years
> and then installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a hot
> day with a full load.
>
>
>
> The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a
> Sensenich 72CK42. I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at the
> same revs. At this power setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and
> full throttle in level flight would give about 2250 rpm (short of the
> rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps 78 mph tops. The Pietenpol is a
> bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft I once owned would top
> out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
> combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
>
> 2150 rpm.
>
>
>
> Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48 (the
> pitch numbers for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty
> good, but the cruise dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one
> cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise speed increased to that of the
> 72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
>
>
>
> A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse
> pitch-wise and the climb rate suffered accordingly.
>
> With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise with
> full load it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that was
> available to just maintain height! (The average elevation around here is
> about 2400' asl and the density altitude can get up there on a hot
> summer day.)
>
>
>
> Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance of
> my Pietenpol--particularly in the climb, but it still is no speedster at
> about 80 mph with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However it is
> particularly nice to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with only
> 65 hp.
>
>
>
> A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A
> 65-powered Pietenpol for several years and said he was able to optimize
> its performance rather easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a mishap
> and replaced it with a custom wooden one on the C 85 he has since
> installed. (I suspect he didn't like the appearance of the WD prop on
> the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
>
>
>
> The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from Manitoba,
> Canada has one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience with it
> to this list. Has anyone else tried one?
>
>
>
> Graham Hansen
>
> (Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
Franklin AC176s are 80 hp @ 2500
>From: <sbobka(at)charter.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:44:10 -0400
>
>
>What rpm is the 80 hp franklin rated at?
>
>Chris
> >
> > From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
> > Date: 2005/08/17 Wed AM 07:43:49 EDT
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
> >
> > So you would say that the 72X43 is my best choice for the 80 hp Franklin
> > rather than the 72X42 right?(wood prop)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> > Hansen
> > Sent: August 16, 2005 9:36 PM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
> >
> >
> >
> > I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few years
> > and then installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a hot
> > day with a full load.
> >
> >
> >
> > The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a
> > Sensenich 72CK42. I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at the
> > same revs. At this power setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and
> > full throttle in level flight would give about 2250 rpm (short of the
> > rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps 78 mph tops. The Pietenpol is a
> > bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft I once owned would top
> > out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
> > combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
> >
> > 2150 rpm.
> >
> >
> >
> > Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48 (the
> > pitch numbers for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty
> > good, but the cruise dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one
> > cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise speed increased to that of the
> > 72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
> >
> >
> >
> > A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse
> > pitch-wise and the climb rate suffered accordingly.
> >
> > With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise with
> > full load it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that was
> > available to just maintain height! (The average elevation around here is
> > about 2400' asl and the density altitude can get up there on a hot
> > summer day.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance of
> > my Pietenpol--particularly in the climb, but it still is no speedster at
> > about 80 mph with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However it is
> > particularly nice to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with only
> > 65 hp.
> >
> >
> >
> > A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A
> > 65-powered Pietenpol for several years and said he was able to optimize
> > its performance rather easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a mishap
> > and replaced it with a custom wooden one on the C 85 he has since
> > installed. (I suspect he didn't like the appearance of the WD prop on
> > the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
> >
> >
> >
> > The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from Manitoba,
> > Canada has one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience with it
> > to this list. Has anyone else tried one?
> >
> >
> >
> > Graham Hansen
> >
> > (Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Captain Gantzer Smoke Oil news |
Guys--for give the slightly off-Piet post but the list has been dead anyway.
For all of us smokers out there, I was just reading some posts on the
International Coucil of Airshows discussion
groups and there is a new oil out there that is cheaper and doesn't mess up
the belly as bad as normal Texaco Canoupus #13.
The link is here: http://www.noco.com/NOCO-MSDS/Prime_BL_Series.htm It
is called NOCO BL50.
They claim it burns whiter too than regular smoke oil.
Another good post showed these oils as good smoke oils as
alternatives: Quoted from a post on those lists:
I like the Noco 50 but it's only up here in the NE USA usually. It's also a
lot cheaper.
Other types that you can use are:
TELLUS 10
CASTROL Brayco 460
Shell Carnae-15, Vitrea 22, or Vitrea 13
Chevron ISO 15
Skywrite 19
Exxon Telura 612 and 613
G&G 853
Stay away from 1010 MIL-L-6081. This is only good for jets. It's not
appropriate for civilian pilots and props.
-David Schultz Airshows LLC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I don't have that info on me now,I'll have to get back to you with that
one,thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
Franklin AC176s are 80 hp @ 2500
>From: <sbobka(at)charter.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:44:10 -0400
>
>
>What rpm is the 80 hp franklin rated at?
>
>Chris
> >
> > From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
> > Date: 2005/08/17 Wed AM 07:43:49 EDT
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
> >
> > So you would say that the 72X43 is my best choice for the 80 hp
Franklin
> > rather than the 72X42 right?(wood prop)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Graham
> > Hansen
> > Sent: August 16, 2005 9:36 PM
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
> >
> >
> >
> > I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few
years
> > and then installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a
hot
> > day with a full load.
> >
> >
> >
> > The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a
> > Sensenich 72CK42. I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at
the
> > same revs. At this power setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and
> > full throttle in level flight would give about 2250 rpm (short of
the
> > rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps 78 mph tops. The Pietenpol
is a
> > bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft I once owned would
top
> > out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
> > combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
> >
> > 2150 rpm.
> >
> >
> >
> > Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48
(the
> > pitch numbers for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty
> > good, but the cruise dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one
> > cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise speed increased to that of the
> > 72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
> >
> >
> >
> > A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse
> > pitch-wise and the climb rate suffered accordingly.
> >
> > With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise
with
> > full load it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that
was
> > available to just maintain height! (The average elevation around
here is
> > about 2400' asl and the density altitude can get up there on a hot
> > summer day.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance
of
> > my Pietenpol--particularly in the climb, but it still is no
speedster at
> > about 80 mph with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However
it is
> > particularly nice to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with
only
> > 65 hp.
> >
> >
> >
> > A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A
> > 65-powered Pietenpol for several years and said he was able to
optimize
> > its performance rather easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a
mishap
> > and replaced it with a custom wooden one on the C 85 he has since
> > installed. (I suspect he didn't like the appearance of the WD prop
on
> > the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
> >
> >
> >
> > The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from
Manitoba,
> > Canada has one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience
with it
> > to this list. Has anyone else tried one?
> >
> >
> >
> > Graham Hansen
> >
> > (Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harvey Rule <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
dumb answer since if I had just read the letter correctly I would have
noticed the answer is right there!
>
>I don't have that info on me now,I'll have to get back to you with that
>one,thanks.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
>Sent: August 17, 2005 12:21 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>
>
>Franklin AC176s are 80 hp @ 2500
>
>
>
>
>>From: <sbobka(at)charter.net>
>>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>To:
>>Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:44:10 -0400
>>
>>
>>What rpm is the 80 hp franklin rated at?
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>>From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
>>>Date: 2005/08/17 Wed AM 07:43:49 EDT
>>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>>>
>>>So you would say that the 72X43 is my best choice for the 80 hp
>>>
>>>
>Franklin
>
>
>>>rather than the 72X42 right?(wood prop)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>>
>>>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>>
>>>
>Graham
>
>
>>>Hansen
>>>Sent: August 16, 2005 9:36 PM
>>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I had a Continental A 65 engine in my Pietenpol for the first few
>>>
>>>
>years
>
>
>>>and then installed a C 85 in order to have some reserve power on a
>>>
>>>
>hot
>
>
>>>day with a full load.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The propeller used with the A 65 that gave the best results was a
>>>Sensenich 72CK42. I could get about 2150 rpm static and cruised at
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>same revs. At this power setting, it made about 74 mph in cruise and
>>>full throttle in level flight would give about 2250 rpm (short of
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>rated 2300 rpm of the A 65) and perhaps 78 mph tops. The Pietenpol
>>>
>>>
>is a
>
>
>>>bit draggy; a cleaner a/c like the Taylorcraft I once owned would
>>>
>>>
>top
>
>
>>>out at 95-100 mph at 2300 rpm with the same engine/propeller
>>>combination, and cruise almost 90 mph at
>>>
>>>2150 rpm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Another propeller that gave similar results was a Flottorp 72A48
>>>
>>>
>(the
>
>
>>>pitch numbers for different makes vary). A Flottorp 72A46 was pretty
>>>good, but the cruise dropped to about 70 mph at 2150 rpm. (If one
>>>cruised it at 2200 rpm, the cruise speed increased to that of the
>>>72CK42, but fuel economy suffered.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>A Sensenich 72CK44 was tried, but proved to be a bit too coarse
>>>pitch-wise and the climb rate suffered accordingly.
>>>
>>>With the A 65, the climb was never that good anyway, and in cruise
>>>
>>>
>with
>
>
>>>full load it was often necessary to add whatever excess power that
>>>
>>>
>was
>
>
>>>available to just maintain height! (The average elevation around
>>>
>>>
>here is
>
>
>>>about 2400' asl and the density altitude can get up there on a hot
>>>summer day.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Installing a C 85 made a huge difference to the overall performance
>>>
>>>
>of
>
>
>>>my Pietenpol--particularly in the climb, but it still is no
>>>
>>>
>speedster at
>
>
>>>about 80 mph with a 72x43 custom prop turning at 2300 rpm. However
>>>
>>>
>it is
>
>
>>>particularly nice to have power in reserve--a feature lacking with
>>>
>>>
>only
>
>
>>>65 hp.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>A friend used a Warp Drive ground-adjustable propeller on his A
>>>65-powered Pietenpol for several years and said he was able to
>>>
>>>
>optimize
>
>
>>>its performance rather easily. He broke the Warp Drive prop in a
>>>
>>>
>mishap
>
>
>>>and replaced it with a custom wooden one on the C 85 he has since
>>>installed. (I suspect he didn't like the appearance of the WD prop
>>>
>>>
>on
>
>
>>>the Piet, so didn't get new blades.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The Warp Drive propeller is a viable option. Shawn Wolk from
>>>
>>>
>Manitoba,
>
>
>>>Canada has one on his Pietenpol, and has reported his experience
>>>
>>>
>with it
>
>
>>>to this list. Has anyone else tried one?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Graham Hansen
>>>
>>>(Pietenpol CF-AUN in cool, cloudy Alberta, Canada)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Harvey,
It seems your Franklin engine is rated 80 hp at 2500 rpm. My Continental C 85 is
rated 85 hp at 2575 rpm, which makes them reasonably close.
I get about 2450 rpm full throttle static and about 2550 rpm in level flight, full
throttle. If the airplane were cleaner aerodynamically, I would exceed the
rated rpm of 2575 quite easily.
The propeller I am currently using is a Colin Walker 72x43 wooden prop. Unfortunately,
Colin Walker (of Surrey, British Columbia) has retired. However, there
is a rumour that somebody on Vancouver Island is going to take over his business.
Colin made excellent propellers for many years and, if this is true, it is
good news. I suspect that a 72x44 CW propeller would be just right for my airplane,
but the 72x43 I have is OK. (Remember, a "43 inch pitch" number on one
propeller may not match the same number on another make!)
Getting the optimum fixed pitch wooden propeller for your airplane is a gamble.
An aeronautical engineer friend said that usually a lot of different propellers
need to be tested to find the best one, but this isn't an option for most
of us. He also told me that Pietenpols don't do as well with certified production
props as with custom-built ones. Metal props can be re-pitched; wooden props
don't lend themselves to this kind of "tweaking". A ground-adjustable prop
(eg. Warp Drive) pretty-well eliminates the gamble factor, but some don't like
their appearance on a Pietenpol. You could go that route, as others have.
If you can borrow a Sensenich 72CK 42 or 72CK44 for trials, you would then get
an idea what prop you need for your particular airplane/engine combination. Either
of these should be reasonably close to your requirement--at least for testing.
Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Borrowing a prop for a Franklin will probably be difficult. The AC 176
series Franklin's prop flange has a 4" X 6 X 3/8" bolt pattern..It is
fairly unique to this engine. Believe it or not they were in production
before Continental or Lycombing ( That's what I read anyway) so they don't
use a SAE pattern..I guess they just made one up that looked good on
paper...Ed Grentzer
>From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:57:23 -0600
>
>Harvey,
>
>It seems your Franklin engine is rated 80 hp at 2500 rpm. My Continental C
>85 is rated 85 hp at 2575 rpm, which makes them reasonably close.
>
>I get about 2450 rpm full throttle static and about 2550 rpm in level
>flight, full throttle. If the airplane were cleaner aerodynamically, I
>would exceed the rated rpm of 2575 quite easily.
>
>The propeller I am currently using is a Colin Walker 72x43 wooden prop.
>Unfortunately, Colin Walker (of Surrey, British Columbia) has retired.
>However, there is a rumour that somebody on Vancouver Island is going to
>take over his business. Colin made excellent propellers for many years and,
>if this is true, it is good news. I suspect that a 72x44 CW propeller would
>be just right for my airplane, but the 72x43 I have is OK. (Remember, a "43
>inch pitch" number on one propeller may not match the same number on
>another make!)
>
>Getting the optimum fixed pitch wooden propeller for your airplane is a
>gamble. An aeronautical engineer friend said that usually a lot of
>different propellers need to be tested to find the best one, but this isn't
>an option for most of us. He also told me that Pietenpols don't do as well
>with certified production props as with custom-built ones. Metal props can
>be re-pitched; wooden props don't lend themselves to this kind of
>"tweaking". A ground-adjustable prop (eg. Warp Drive) pretty-well
>eliminates the gamble factor, but some don't like their appearance on a
>Pietenpol. You could go that route, as others have.
>
>If you can borrow a Sensenich 72CK 42 or 72CK44 for trials, you would then
>get an idea what prop you need for your particular airplane/engine
>combination. Either of these should be reasonably close to your
>requirement--at least for testing.
>
>Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Graham,
The franklin will have a different bolt circle diameter so the props you mention
will not fit.
if he is doing a sensenich, it needs to be a W72F42
Chris
>
> From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
> Date: 2005/08/17 Wed PM 05:57:23 EDT
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
>
> Harvey,
>
> It seems your Franklin engine is rated 80 hp at 2500 rpm. My Continental C 85
is rated 85 hp at 2575 rpm, which makes them reasonably close.
>
> I get about 2450 rpm full throttle static and about 2550 rpm in level flight,
full throttle. If the airplane were cleaner aerodynamically, I would exceed the
rated rpm of 2575 quite easily.
>
> The propeller I am currently using is a Colin Walker 72x43 wooden prop. Unfortunately,
Colin Walker (of Surrey, British Columbia) has retired. However, there
is a rumour that somebody on Vancouver Island is going to take over his business.
Colin made excellent propellers for many years and, if this is true, it
is good news. I suspect that a 72x44 CW propeller would be just right for my
airplane, but the 72x43 I have is OK. (Remember, a "43 inch pitch" number on one
propeller may not match the same number on another make!)
>
> Getting the optimum fixed pitch wooden propeller for your airplane is a gamble.
An aeronautical engineer friend said that usually a lot of different propellers
need to be tested to find the best one, but this isn't an option for most
of us. He also told me that Pietenpols don't do as well with certified production
props as with custom-built ones. Metal props can be re-pitched; wooden props
don't lend themselves to this kind of "tweaking". A ground-adjustable prop
(eg. Warp Drive) pretty-well eliminates the gamble factor, but some don't like
their appearance on a Pietenpol. You could go that route, as others have.
>
> If you can borrow a Sensenich 72CK 42 or 72CK44 for trials, you would then get
an idea what prop you need for your particular airplane/engine combination.
Either of these should be reasonably close to your requirement--at least for testing.
>
> Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Chris and Ed,
Harvey has an adapter on the Franklin which allows him to use the
Continental props. It had been machined for that purpose.
I saw it in May when I was at Ottawa and, at that time, a McCauley metal
prop (for a Continental) was fitted. His friend, an Aircraft Maintenance
Engineer (as I am), told him a wooden prop would be safer with that adapter.
I agree with his engineer.
Harvey bought his GN 1 in an advanced state of construction and all this
stuff was done by the builder.
It would be better if he could find a wooden Sensenich for the Franklin, but
I think that is not too likely. A custom-built prop to fit the Franklin
would, if he decides to go that route, allow him to ditch the adapter.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
That's correct;the man I bought it from told me that he didn't think the
adaptor set up was all that safe and he felt that it was too heavy with
the metal prop.So much so,that he felt there was a danger of tipping
over easily.He suggested that I switch to a wooden prop and the AME that
is helping me said that a wooden prop would also be smoother.So I'm in
the market for a wood prop with either a 72X42 or 72X43 for the 80hp.I
have sent out letters to both Sensenich and Tennessee and have received
no info back.I believe that they want all the particulars with regards
to bolt pattern etc.before they will get back to me.In one situation you
have to fill out an order form first.So I have to wait till I can get
back to the aircraft to glean all that info.I will be selling that
McCauley prop if anyone is interested.And the adaptor as well.With a
wood prop on I may be able to reinstall the starter.That ,however may
just put me right back where I started with the danger of tipping.With
the starter,the metal prop and adaptor on it will tip over unless I tie
a rock to the rear,HAHAHA!I'd probably land up in the Redeau River eh
guys!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Hansen
Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
<grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Chris and Ed,
Harvey has an adapter on the Franklin which allows him to use the
Continental props. It had been machined for that purpose.
I saw it in May when I was at Ottawa and, at that time, a McCauley metal
prop (for a Continental) was fitted. His friend, an Aircraft Maintenance
Engineer (as I am), told him a wooden prop would be safer with that
adapter.
I agree with his engineer.
Harvey bought his GN 1 in an advanced state of construction and all this
stuff was done by the builder.
It would be better if he could find a wooden Sensenich for the Franklin,
but
I think that is not too likely. A custom-built prop to fit the Franklin
would, if he decides to go that route, allow him to ditch the adapter.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol Propellers |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I would opt for the ground adjustable only I found out from Perceptor
during my engine exchange on the N3 Pup that direct drive likes to
destroy ground adjustibles.It has something to do with the torgue.The
blades will work loose and try to leave at the connection point.All good
info I'm receiving noe with the present letters coming out.I should be
able to get a pretty good handle on what to go after,thanks a million to
everyone.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Hansen
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
Harvey,
It seems your Franklin engine is rated 80 hp at 2500 rpm. My Continental
C 85 is rated 85 hp at 2575 rpm, which makes them reasonably close.
I get about 2450 rpm full throttle static and about 2550 rpm in level
flight, full throttle. If the airplane were cleaner aerodynamically, I
would exceed the rated rpm of 2575 quite easily.
The propeller I am currently using is a Colin Walker 72x43 wooden prop.
Unfortunately, Colin Walker (of Surrey, British Columbia) has retired.
However, there is a rumour that somebody on Vancouver Island is going to
take over his business. Colin made excellent propellers for many years
and, if this is true, it is good news. I suspect that a 72x44 CW
propeller would be just right for my airplane, but the 72x43 I have is
OK. (Remember, a "43 inch pitch" number on one propeller may not match
the same number on another make!)
Getting the optimum fixed pitch wooden propeller for your airplane is a
gamble. An aeronautical engineer friend said that usually a lot of
different propellers need to be tested to find the best one, but this
isn't an option for most of us. He also told me that Pietenpols don't do
as well with certified production props as with custom-built ones. Metal
props can be re-pitched; wooden props don't lend themselves to this kind
of "tweaking". A ground-adjustable prop (eg. Warp Drive) pretty-well
eliminates the gamble factor, but some don't like their appearance on a
Pietenpol. You could go that route, as others have.
If you can borrow a Sensenich 72CK 42 or 72CK44 for trials, you would
then get an idea what prop you need for your particular airplane/engine
combination. Either of these should be reasonably close to your
requirement--at least for testing.
Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Harvey ..They both have on line order forms on their web sites at;
www.sensenich.com and
www.tn-prop.com..I bought from Tennessee because their price was half the
price of a Sensenich uncertified prop without the brass leading edge..I set
out to buy a Culver prop and found that Tennessee had bought them out...They
have the template for the older Franklin hub..Which ever way you go make
sure you stress your bolt pattern to them..The PLZ Franklins use an SAE
pattern and when you say Franklin that's what they seem to think you need. I
got mine several months ago and the workmanship in it is top notch and it
has a nice classic shape to it...Ed Grentzer
>From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:19:39 -0400
>
>
>That's correct;the man I bought it from told me that he didn't think the
>adaptor set up was all that safe and he felt that it was too heavy with
>the metal prop.So much so,that he felt there was a danger of tipping
>over easily.He suggested that I switch to a wooden prop and the AME that
>is helping me said that a wooden prop would also be smoother.So I'm in
>the market for a wood prop with either a 72X42 or 72X43 for the 80hp.I
>have sent out letters to both Sensenich and Tennessee and have received
>no info back.I believe that they want all the particulars with regards
>to bolt pattern etc.before they will get back to me.In one situation you
>have to fill out an order form first.So I have to wait till I can get
>back to the aircraft to glean all that info.I will be selling that
>McCauley prop if anyone is interested.And the adaptor as well.With a
>wood prop on I may be able to reinstall the starter.That ,however may
>just put me right back where I started with the danger of tipping.With
>the starter,the metal prop and adaptor on it will tip over unless I tie
>a rock to the rear,HAHAHA!I'd probably land up in the Redeau River eh
>guys!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
>Hansen
>Sent: August 17, 2005 9:38 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
>
><grhans@cable-lynx.net>
>
>Chris and Ed,
>
>Harvey has an adapter on the Franklin which allows him to use the
>Continental props. It had been machined for that purpose.
>
>I saw it in May when I was at Ottawa and, at that time, a McCauley metal
>
>prop (for a Continental) was fitted. His friend, an Aircraft Maintenance
>
>Engineer (as I am), told him a wooden prop would be safer with that
>adapter.
>I agree with his engineer.
>
>Harvey bought his GN 1 in an advanced state of construction and all this
>
>stuff was done by the builder.
>
>It would be better if he could find a wooden Sensenich for the Franklin,
>but
>I think that is not too likely. A custom-built prop to fit the Franklin
>would, if he decides to go that route, allow him to ditch the adapter.
>
>Graham
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Since the engine is aimed downwards to about 3 degrees then if you are
looking at your engine and it appears level then your plane would be
down by about 3 degrees.Bringing the fusy up means now the plane is
level while the engine is in it's normal configuration of down by 3
degrees and I believe that is why you are not loosing altitude.Your
plane is now level.Don't look at the engine to see if your level because
it's not.I believe I could be off a degree or two but this is what my
plans indicate for motor mount.Correct?
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 65 hp props
In a message dated 8/16/2005 7:52:20 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
Mike and everyone.
critical. If the
ball is a little off and you step on it, you can just feel a big
change in
speed. Also, at altitude if I push the stick forward slightly
to get it
"on step" (don't know if that's a real term , or we made it up)
it really
cranks.
You'd swear it was diving/losing altitude but it's not. It
flattens the low
pressure arch over the wing and keeps you there.
Anyone else do this?
Going like a rocket in NJ :
)
walt evans
NX140DL
Yes, I've found this to be true, too. Especially transitioning from
climb to cruise. I always leave full power in until cruise speed is
reached, then adjust power till no pressure is needed on the stick to
maintain altitude. It planes out at about 63 mph indicated, which is
actually about 72 or 73 mph. Some day I'll have to try to correct the
ASI by adding an O-ring in front of the static port on the pitot /
static probe.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Excellent;thankyou very much.I will order from Tennessee then using the info
Provided.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
Subject: RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
Harvey ..They both have on line order forms on their web sites at;
www.sensenich.com and
www.tn-prop.com..I bought from Tennessee because their price was half the
price of a Sensenich uncertified prop without the brass leading edge..I set
out to buy a Culver prop and found that Tennessee had bought them out...They
have the template for the older Franklin hub..Which ever way you go make
sure you stress your bolt pattern to them..The PLZ Franklins use an SAE
pattern and when you say Franklin that's what they seem to think you need. I
got mine several months ago and the workmanship in it is top notch and it
has a nice classic shape to it...Ed Grentzer
>From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:19:39 -0400
>
>
>That's correct;the man I bought it from told me that he didn't think the
>adaptor set up was all that safe and he felt that it was too heavy with
>the metal prop.So much so,that he felt there was a danger of tipping
>over easily.He suggested that I switch to a wooden prop and the AME that
>is helping me said that a wooden prop would also be smoother.So I'm in
>the market for a wood prop with either a 72X42 or 72X43 for the 80hp.I
>have sent out letters to both Sensenich and Tennessee and have received
>no info back.I believe that they want all the particulars with regards
>to bolt pattern etc.before they will get back to me.In one situation you
>have to fill out an order form first.So I have to wait till I can get
>back to the aircraft to glean all that info.I will be selling that
>McCauley prop if anyone is interested.And the adaptor as well.With a
>wood prop on I may be able to reinstall the starter.That ,however may
>just put me right back where I started with the danger of tipping.With
>the starter,the metal prop and adaptor on it will tip over unless I tie
>a rock to the rear,HAHAHA!I'd probably land up in the Redeau River eh
>guys!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
>Hansen
>Sent: August 17, 2005 9:38 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
>
><grhans@cable-lynx.net>
>
>Chris and Ed,
>
>Harvey has an adapter on the Franklin which allows him to use the
>Continental props. It had been machined for that purpose.
>
>I saw it in May when I was at Ottawa and, at that time, a McCauley metal
>
>prop (for a Continental) was fitted. His friend, an Aircraft Maintenance
>
>Engineer (as I am), told him a wooden prop would be safer with that
>adapter.
>I agree with his engineer.
>
>Harvey bought his GN 1 in an advanced state of construction and all this
>
>stuff was done by the builder.
>
>It would be better if he could find a wooden Sensenich for the Franklin,
>but
>I think that is not too likely. A custom-built prop to fit the Franklin
>would, if he decides to go that route, allow him to ditch the adapter.
>
>Graham
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Piet builders in North Dakota/Minnesota |
Members of the list:
I recently purchased a set of plans to build a Pietenpol. Anyone interested in
assisting me in and or around the Detroit Lakes, Minnesota area? Would enjoy working
with others to make this plane come to life.
I am a native of Albany, Wisconsin just 7 miles to the west of Brodhead, WI They
are some fantastic builders at that airport and well worth the time to visit.
Anyone interested please contact me at 218-486-1963 Home or Work 701-364-9100
Ken Heide
________________________________________________________________________________
<002c01c5a0e1$9a1f3770$6401a8c0@FAMILY>
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | New Piet(?) owner with questions |
Dear Pietenpolers,
My dad and a friend and I just bought a Pietenpol built in the late
70s. The plane had been regularly flown by the seller right up to the
day that we bought it. He had purchased the plane from the widow of
the builder, who died a few years ago. Hence, we cannot ask him some
of the questions that I'm going to be asking on this list.
Though the plane is registered as a Pietenpol Air Camper (two
separate words), after trucking it home 1000 miles and upon close
inspection, it appears to be a combination of Pietenpol and Grega
designs - would that be a Griegenpol or a Priega? :) The only plans
we have for it are Grega, but it's a plans set from the 80s, well
after the plane had been flying, so this is not the plans that the
plane was built from.
The landing gear appears to be Pietenpol, with the fuselage lift
strut fittings doing double duty as landing gear strut fittings.
These fittings are connected with one another by a metal strap that
runs under the fuselage directly under the cross-member that is
visible from inside the cockpit. The strap is simply bolted to each
fitting by two AN3 bolts running vertically through the wooden
cross-member and floorboard. Our front strap is bowed/bent on the
left side, halfway between the centerline and the left strut bracket.
There are absolutely no other signs of damage or stress to the wooden
or metal members attached to or surrounding this assembly, nor are
there obvious signs of repair. We're not sure how this could be
unless a hard landing years ago caused the strap to bend, and a bunch
of repairs were made so expertly that they are not detectable. I
guess it could have happened during the truck drive home, but if so,
it was the only damage to anything on the plane.
I've check with the seller, who was very up-front about other issues,
and he says that the plane never had a damaging landing in the last
three years, nor had he seen the bulge of the bent strap through the
fabric (which is what we noticed once we got the plane home). Note
that it's not easy to see - the plane is all white.
Is there a consensus in the on the use of a steel strap running
across and under the fuselage between strut fittings? Should we
replace with another strap or maybe use angle, channel, or square
tubing to prevent another bend?
All thoughts are welcome and thanks for reading this far.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Captain Gantzer Smoke Oil news |
Hey Mikee,
Thanks for the info !! Now I have to find out if it is available in town.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Piet(?) owner with questions |
| From: | "Steve Eldredge" <steve(at)byu.edu> |
I have seen this once. In this case the bend was caused during a ground
loop that put the gear in compression on one side. Normal flight loads
have the bar in tension. In our case the other repairs needed solved
the problem, but there was no wood damage. Probably worth
investigating, but it may turn out to be minor.
Steve e
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Piet(?) owner with questions
Dear Pietenpolers,
My dad and a friend and I just bought a Pietenpol built in the late 70s.
The plane had been regularly flown by the seller right up to the day
that we bought it. He had purchased the plane from the widow of the
builder, who died a few years ago. Hence, we cannot ask him some of the
questions that I'm going to be asking on this list.
Though the plane is registered as a Pietenpol Air Camper (two separate
words), after trucking it home 1000 miles and upon close inspection, it
appears to be a combination of Pietenpol and Grega designs - would that
be a Griegenpol or a Priega? :) The only plans we have for it are
Grega, but it's a plans set from the 80s, well after the plane had been
flying, so this is not the plans that the plane was built from.
The landing gear appears to be Pietenpol, with the fuselage lift strut
fittings doing double duty as landing gear strut fittings. These
fittings are connected with one another by a metal strap that runs under
the fuselage directly under the cross-member that is visible from inside
the cockpit. The strap is simply bolted to each fitting by two AN3 bolts
running vertically through the wooden cross-member and floorboard. Our
front strap is bowed/bent on the left side, halfway between the
centerline and the left strut bracket. There are absolutely no other
signs of damage or stress to the wooden or metal members attached to or
surrounding this assembly, nor are there obvious signs of repair. We're
not sure how this could be unless a hard landing years ago caused the
strap to bend, and a bunch of repairs were made so expertly that they
are not detectable. I guess it could have happened during the truck
drive home, but if so, it was the only damage to anything on the plane.
I've check with the seller, who was very up-front about other issues,
and he says that the plane never had a damaging landing in the last
three years, nor had he seen the bulge of the bent strap through the
fabric (which is what we noticed once we got the plane home). Note that
it's not easy to see - the plane is all white.
Is there a consensus in the on the use of a steel strap running across
and under the fuselage between strut fittings? Should we replace with
another strap or maybe use angle, channel, or square tubing to prevent
another bend?
All thoughts are welcome and thanks for reading this far.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Piet(?) owner with questions |
In a message dated 8/18/2005 4:37:35 PM Central Standard Time,
jboatri(at)emory.edu writes:
Our front strap is bowed/bent on the left side, halfway between the
centerline and the left strut bracket.
Jeff,
I had the same thing happen on my plane. I've seen it on other Pietenpol's,
too. My strap is one piece, from lift strut fitting to lift strut fitting. I
originally built it without any bolts down through the cross strap. I
believe it is caused by hard landings, causing the wing panels to load the lift
struts, and cross strap in compression, causing the slight buckle. Even though
it
isn't very much, it caused the incidence of the left wing to decrease,
causing a slight left wing heavy condition. I repaired it by using three #10 bolts
/ washers (3/16" bolts) down through the Ash cross member and cross strap -
one in the center, and the other two spaced evenly to the outboard. The left
wing heavy went away, and I've had no problems ever since. The aft strap has
plenty of hardware going through it to keep it from bowing down. The brake
cylinders, front seat belt, and rudder bar support all have hardware going down
through the aft Ash cross piece and cross strap.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Harvey,
It is possible that Preceptor discouraged you from using a Warp Drive propeller
on your N3 Pup because it had a direct drive two cylinder 4-stroke engine. With
only two cylinders, the power impulses are going to be widely spaced. A friend
has an N3 Pup with the two cylinder 40 hp Mosler which has relatively high
compression and lots of "snap".
I have never heard of such a restriction on a four cylinder
direct drive engine and know of quite a few four cylinder Continentals (A 65, C
85, C90 & O200) that seem to be successfully mated to the Warp Drive props. I
was thinking of getting a Warp Drive prop for my 65 hp Wag-A-Bond and you are
instilling some doubts in my mind.
Has anyone on the list any information on this?
Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Cruising "on the step". |
Walt & everyone,
All four short fuselage Pietenpols I have flown were very sensitive in both
pitch and yaw and, as you stated, concentration is required to get maximum
cruise speed.
With my Pietenpol, it is easy to fly "cockeyed" merely by having the ball
only slightly off center.This costs some speed. At the end of a full
throttle climb, I don't reduce power until I have established the cruising
attitude, using as reference the position of the nose on the horizon and the
relationship of the underside of the wing to the horizon. Speed is allowed
to build up and power is gradually reduced to the desired level to avoid
disturbing this somewhat delicate situation. The feel of the aircraft, as
well as the ASI and altimeter readings (I don't have a VSI, but having one
would help), will tell you when you are "on the step".
Over fifty years ago, a bush pilot (I was his mechanic) showed me how to get
a bit more speed in cruise by trimming the A/C (DeHavilland Beaver, in this
case) slightly tail heavy, requiring a slight forward pressure on the yoke.
I don't have elevator trim on my Piet, so this isn't an option--but I have
tried it on Taylorcrafts, Aeroncas, etc.
In any case, these techniques work well only when the air is smooth. When
it is turbulent, all bets are off. With my Pietenpol, in rough air I'm lucky
to keep it pointed in the intended direction!
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propellers |
Hi Graham,
The advise has been that nobody should use this type of propellers in any VW engine.
Only the wooden two blades type.
The "Legend" (I use this word when I have no first hand info on something) says
that this props will not act as a flywheel like the wooden propelers.
This make the crankshaft to break. I dont mention the brand of propellers that
where the first ones to fail because was not "that" brand of props in specific,
were all of them.
Off course I have not tested personally this failure, or used any ground ajustable
one, in my past VW engines. Mainly because loosing a blade or a propeller
in flight is a SERIOUS CG problem... I just use(d) wooden props in the VW
conversions I built.
Not the case for the Piet, because averyone is advised not to use the VW in the
Piet...
Not even with the Valley Reduction ;-)
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Graham Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net> wrote:
Harvey,
It is possible that Preceptor discouraged you from using a Warp Drive propeller
on your N3 Pup because it had a direct drive two cylinder 4-stroke engine. With
only two cylinders, the power impulses are going to be widely spaced. A friend
has an N3 Pup with the two cylinder 40 hp Mosler which has relatively high
compression and lots of "snap".
I have never heard of such a restriction on a four cylinder
direct drive engine and know of quite a few four cylinder Continentals (A 65, C
85, C90 & O200) that seem to be successfully mated to the Warp Drive props. I
was thinking of getting a Warp Drive prop for my 65 hp Wag-A-Bond and you are
instilling some doubts in my mind.
Has anyone on the list any information on this?
Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | lift strut strap buckling |
Jeff,
I too have seen this on many Piets, typically in the front strap.
It must be hard landings where not only is the lift strut loading that strap in
compression, but the gear bungee attachment is pulling that strut fitting down
at the same time. I think this introduces a kind of downward "rolling" motion
in that fitting which wants to buckle that belly strap.
Most people just add more bolts.
Interesting note, I've never seen it on a axle-geared Piet.
Good luck
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | belly strap bowing |
Jeff- congratulations on buying a Pietenpol. I've seen those straps do the
same on my plane BEFORE it ever left my house.
I suspect that as humidity levels in the air change that the wood fuselage
expands and contracts accordingly (you can see this
on the plywood of planes like the Spruce Goose.) and so the strap either
bows or tightens in different conditions. My advice is
not to worry about it and it really is only a backup in cases of severe
turbulence or hard landings to prevent the bolts from ripping
thru the ash cross members.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol Propellers |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
There was a notice that came out a while back that the warp drive ground
adjustable props where fracturing at the roots.That's what happened to
Dave Stroud ,the guy who fly's the Christavia at our field.He now has a
solid piece of lumber on the front.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Hansen
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propellers
Harvey,
It is possible that Preceptor discouraged you from using a Warp Drive
propeller on your N3 Pup because it had a direct drive two cylinder
4-stroke engine. With only two cylinders, the power impulses are going
to be widely spaced. A friend has an N3 Pup with the two cylinder 40 hp
Mosler which has relatively high compression and lots of "snap".
I have never heard of such a restriction on a four cylinder
direct drive engine and know of quite a few four cylinder Continentals
(A 65, C 85, C90 & O200) that seem to be successfully mated to the Warp
Drive props. I was thinking of getting a Warp Drive prop for my 65 hp
Wag-A-Bond and you are instilling some doubts in my mind.
Has anyone on the list any information on this?
Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Builders in North Dakota / Minnesota |
| From: | "Dan Loegering" <danl(at)odayequipment.com> |
Hi Ken,
I would be very interested in sharing ideas with you as your project progresses,
and maybe you could teach me a thing or two as well!
I am in Fargo, ND and am only slightly farther along than you at this point - purchased
plans about 4 months ago and have been working on getting the basement
ready for the project and researching all that I can on building practices and
Piet specific items. Just purchased the Tony Bengalis series while at Oshkosh
and have been reading these the last few weeks. My rib jig is nearly complete
and I was literally going to place the order for capstrip and ply for the
ribs today. (I'll hold off now though until we can talk)
I started this venture with another individual with the intent on building two
aircraft side by side, and this may still happen once work slows down a bit this
winter (he manages outside construction crews). Our intent was to be able
to purchase materials together and ease the shipping charges. Neither of us are
in a hurry to get them flying though and I am planning on about a 5 year project
- wing ribs through this winter - tail surfaces next spring, fuse next fall,
etc... The plan was that we would each work on a different jig and then
swap jigs around as we completed phases.
In talking with the local EAA chapter, I believe there is another Piet project
in the area, but he is inactive on it (doesn't want to sell though...).
Drop me an email at "danl(at)odayequipment.com" so we can chat - I'll be driving
through tonight on my way to Ottertail - can't stop tonight, but I'll swing
over some time with my Cardinal. Sure will be a blast to cruise the lakes with
a flight of Piet's though!
Dan Loegering
From: Kenneth Heide <km>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet builders in North Dakota/Minnesota
Members of the list:
I recently purchased a set of plans to build a Pietenpol. Anyone interested in
assisting me in and or around the Detroit Lakes, Minnesota area? Would enjoy working
with others to make this plane come to life.
I am a native of Albany, Wisconsin just 7 miles to the west of Brodhead, WI They
are some fantastic builders at that airport and well worth the time to visit.
Anyone interested please contact me at 218-486-1963 Home or Work 701-364-9100
Ken Heide
_
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: lift strut strap buckling |
Thanks to all those who responded. I think we'll replace the strap
since we've already cut the fabric to assess damage. To avoid bends
in the future, we'll probably replace the strap with angle or channel.
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: lift strut strap buckling |
<a06010228bf2bd47fe240@[163.246.59.196]>
Jeff,
My Piet has been flying for about 3 years now. I noticed that my straps,
especially the front one, was bellied down before I ever took it to the
airport. Think it's from a common mistake where you have the fuse upside
down and making all the parts , and not realizing that when you finally
tighten the brackets that support the wing struts,the landing gear, and
connects the strap,,,that a little bit of compression that was not there
before, bows that strap out a bit. You could remove the strap and open the
holes, but that would defeat the purpose. The strap is made to take the
load from the wing struts in an emergency. The wing load wants to pull the
ash strip ,on the floor, apart. Incase the bolts let go you still have a
continious "strap".
If you want to repair, I would replace the flat strap with simular from the
print. To use angle or channel would cause drag, look bad, blah blah.
And since it's in tension (when needed) angle or channel won't add
anything.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: lift strut strap buckling
>
> Thanks to all those who responded. I think we'll replace the strap
> since we've already cut the fabric to assess damage. To avoid bends
> in the future, we'll probably replace the strap with angle or channel.
> --
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
> Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
> Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
> mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Deep rambling thoughts |
Anybody get to thinking ,,after you take people for a ride,, maybe during the drive
home,, "They asked the same old questions, "you really built this by hand?
From these prints? It's just glued together? How high can you go? What
if the engine quits?""""
And you realize that you actually created each and every piece of this plane!!!
Some build clocks, some boats, some jewlery boxes,,,but rarely is the builders
"arse" accountable for the result.
And I look at the plane and say to myself,,,"I actually fabricated each and every
part of this plane".
I'm proud of the way my plane came out. And I wish it was as good as others I've
seen. but all through my building process, my Mentor's words rattled in my
head every time I held the piece up and gave it a final look. " In building
airplanes,,,there's no such thing as ""That's good enough"" (Dick Lawson EAA#272)
walt evans
NX140DL
PS think about things like this when it's a rainy day, and know that winter's
comming.
Ain't life grand!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: lift strut strap buckling |
<a06010228bf2bd47fe240@[163.246.59.196]>
Jeff,
If the strap is bending because the wood is moving as some have suggested -
maybe Mike C? - I would be careful about putting in a piece of metal that
cannot bend. When the wood moves, and it will, if the metal won't move too
then the wood is going to move something else.
Dave
At 02:26 PM 8/19/2005, you wrote:
>
>Thanks to all those who responded. I think we'll replace the strap since
>we've already cut the fabric to assess damage. To avoid bends in the
>future, we'll probably replace the strap with angle or channel.
>--
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
>Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
>Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
>mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I know that gap seals hve been discussed before, but I just want to ad a bit more
to it. At Broadhead I had discussed my takeoff problems with a few of you.
If I wasn't careful and didn't add power slowly, while pinning the stick foward,
the plane would want to fly before it had the speed. This would cause the
plane to want to stall at the ground. I thought this might be the way a Piet
flew.
After telling my story to the old timers sitting around after all had left, they
told me not to look at moving the gear aft as I was thinking but to gap seal
the elevators. I have piano hinge on the ailerions so I hadn't thought much
about the elevators.
After locating some duct tape at Brodhead I taped up the elevators. Right away
it flew like a completely diffrent plane.
It is much easier to handle on takeoff, tail comes right up and the stick is much
lighter. On landing it is more responsive. In cruise it adds about 2 mph.
My only question in all of this is, what to replace the duct tape with for a permanent
addition? My first thought is a closed cell foam that we use at work
as an expansion joint in concrete. Next might be strips of leather or a mylar
tape.
Any suggestions?
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deep rambling thoughts |
In a message dated 8/19/2005 3:41:09 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
Anybody get to thinking ,,after you take people for a ride,, maybe during the
drive home,, "They asked the same old questions, "you really built this by
hand? From these prints? It's just glued together? How high can you go?
What if the engine quits?""""
And you realize that you actually created each and every piece of this
plane!!!
Some build clocks, some boats, some jewlery boxes,,,but rarely is the
builders "arse" accountable for the result.
And I look at the plane and say to myself,,,"I actually fabricated each and
every part of this plane".
I'm proud of the way my plane came out. And I wish it was as good as others
I've seen. but all through my building process, my Mentor's words rattled in
my head every time I held the piece up and gave it a final look. " In
building airplanes,,,there's no such thing as ""That's good enough"" (Dick Lawson
EAA#272)
walt evans
NX140DL
PS think about things like this when it's a rainy day, and know that
winter's comming.
Ain't life grand!
Walt,
I'm pretty sure that everyone who has completed and fly an airplane, has
had these thoughts and questions posed to them. Some other popular questions
are "How fast does it go ?", or "How far can you go ?" I think the general
public views airplanes as methods to go farther and faster, and probably believe
it is rather risky, too. Their beliefs are with merit. One thing John Q.
Public seems to have difficulty comprehending, is the sheer joy of
flight...until we take them up for a ride in a Pietenpol !! The sights, sounds,
and
feelings are truly one of a kind.
As far as completing and flying a homebuilt airplane, Mr. Lawson offers
some very good advise. I think for most of us it is a major lifetime
accomplishment, second only to raising a family. It will be one of the legacy's
we
will be remembered for when we are gone. It is a Very unique accomplishment, due
in large part to the EAA, that is not even possible in most other parts of
the world. The Freedom we have here in America is one to be cherished.
Yes, Life is Grand !!
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
Dick,
I made empenage gap seals for my plane while in the construction phase,
therefore I can't compare the performance to being without the empenage gap seals.
Here is an area where I varied from the plans just a little, but I didn't
want to endorse the change till I had some flight time on the plane. Curse
me all you purists !! We all know how important it is to seal the gaps at the
ailerons. I used the plans barn door hinges, and sealed the aileron gaps with
a strip of 3" fabric tape, centering it over the gap, before painting.
Now, I just didn't like the big gaps at the hinges of the elevators
(flippers) and rudder. I used the same method I used when building model planes,
I
call it a 'Double Monocoat Hinge'. I used Vi Kappler aluminum hinges, and
after building and fitting the control surfaces, before covering, I glued a
triangle piece of bulsa wood to the trailing edge of the horiz & vert stabs, and
the leading edge of the flippers and rudder, leaving a gap of 1/4" between the
tips of these triangle pieces, in line with and the same diameter as the hinge
pins. I then covered all the flight surfaces in the conventional manner,
assembled the flight surfaces with the pins, then glued a fabric strip down each
slope of the triangle piece, across the gap, then up the other triangle piece,
and trimmed it. I did this on the top and the bottom, so two layers of
fabric bridge the 1/4" gap, right on the hinge line.
Advantages:
1) It seals any air from leaking at the hinge, when the flight surface is
deflected, therefore less deflection is needed, thus reducing drag.
2) It is a secondary attachment of the flight surfaces, in the event of a
hinge failure, and keeps the hinge pins from working out, even if the cotter key
is gone.
3) It prevents any sticks or stuff from becoming lodged in the hinge area,
when operating out of unimproved strips.
4) Hawks don't have any gaps in their tail.
5) I included a picture.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Deep rambling thoughts |
Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote:In a message dated 8/19/2005 3:41:09 PM Central Standard Time,
wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:
Anybody get to thinking ,,after you take people for a ride,, maybe during the drive
home,, "They asked the same old questions, "you really built this by hand?
From these prints? It's just glued together? How high can you go? What
if the engine quits?""""
And you realize that you actually created each and every piece of this plane!!!
Some build clocks, some boats, some jewlery boxes,,,but rarely is the builders
"arse" accountable for the result.
And I look at the plane and say to myself,,,"I actually fabricated each and every
part of this plane".
I'm proud of the way my plane came out. And I wish it was as good as others I've
seen. but all through my building process, my Mentor's words rattled in my
head every time I held the piece up and gave it a final look. " In building
airplanes,,,there's no such thing as ""That's good enough"" (Dick Lawson EAA#272)
walt evans
NX140DL
PS think about things like this when it's a rainy day, and know that winter's
comming.
Ain't life grand!
Walt,
I'm pretty sure that everyone who has completed and fly an airplane, has had
these thoughts and questions posed to them. Some other popular questions are
"How fast does it go ?", or "How far can you go ?" I think the general public
views airplanes as methods to go farther and faster, and probably believe it
is rather risky, too. Their beliefs are with merit. One thing John Q. Public
seems to have difficulty comprehending, is the sheer joy of flight...until
we take them up for a ride in a Pietenpol !! The sights, sounds, and feelings
are truly one of a kind.
As far as completing and flying a homebuilt airplane, Mr. Lawson offers some
very good advise. I think for most of us it is a major lifetime accomplishment,
second only to raising a family. It will be one of the legacy's we will
be remembered for when we are gone. It is a Very unique accomplishment, due in
large part to the EAA, that is not even possible in most other parts of the
world. The Freedom we have here in America is one to be cherished.
Yes, Life is Grand !!
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
*******************************************
Yes Chuck and Walt,
Same Questions Worldwide! Is amazing...
Also I think that the "risky" feeling to airplanes is caused by the Movies...
Almost 98% of the movies where a GA airplanes flyes...
yes, will crash! then the movie's trama beguins...
Also how many cars have been lost, because everytime (in the movies) a car gets
fire.... It expodes as it was full of dinamite!!! When a car beguins to
burn, just a simple coke (shaking to pressurise) will stop the fire. They dont
explode.
Well, flying is great, sharing the flight its greater...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Cooper <blugoos1(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Continental 65 or 85 eyebrow patterns |
If anyone needs the eyebrow patterns for a 65 or 85 Continental engine, please
contact Tom Schildt at 337/989-8148. I have them and will be out of town until
Sept. 20. Thank you, Jim Cooper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Deep rambling thoughts |
Walt--- great story. You're absolutely right. You know all the 'stick
time' that we accumulate during the building
process ? Well in all the times I was sitting there moving the stick
around on the ground I it never once crossed
my mind that something should break......but on climb-out during my first
flight I suddenly got this unwarranted sense
of caution that those wing struts are holding the entire weight of me, my
fuel, my engine, my fuselage, and my landing
gear...and if they should fail now, I'm going down. After rationalizing
to myself that I knew that I knew that every part
of the plane was made to the best possible standards out of the best
possible materials and inspected by several very
knowledgeable people, that I was fine and should just enjoy the ride and
the first flight. (and all the following flights:)
The older guys at our airport are really good (like your Dick Lawson) and
do everything the right way on maintenance
and restorations, but the one guy will finish a job, show it to me, and say
"it's good enough for who it's for." and of
course he's joking--but its still funny.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | do you have to talk with air traffic controllers ?? |
Another common question is this one and my answer always surprises
people. I tell them that you can legally fly
a plane like our from coast to coast without ever having to talk with
anyone at anytime. My first two times to Oshkosh
I went 100% non-radio in 1998 and 1999. Since then they have really
tightened up the rules on NORDO approaches
to Oshkosh, but it still can be done.
Since then I bought myself a nice Icom handheld and really find between
that and a puff or two of smoke in the pattern
increases my safety and of those in the air around me.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
Found a neat R/C piet vid, some on floats. But it is in German.
http://paf-flugmodelle.de/Video/mpg/Pietenpol.mpg
Something for a rainy day!
walt evans
NX140DL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Deep rambling thoughts |
Just the kind of responses I get also Walt whenever I take someone out to
the garage. Funny when you fly in a plane someone else built (including a
factory) you don't think about welds failing and bolts falling out (at least
I don't). You just assume that anyone that builds something as complex as an
airplane must know what they are doing, that is unless I built it. I am sure
that when I get this thing in the air some day and I hit some good
turbulence I will immediately flash back to the welds on the flying struts
and fittings, the T-88 holding the floor on the plane and keeping me from
falling out the bottom, etc.
Rick
On 8/19/05, walt evans wrote:
>
> Anybody get to thinking ,,after you take people for a ride,, maybe during
> the drive home,, "They asked the same old questions, "you really built this
> by hand? From these prints? It's just glued together? How high can you go?
> What if the engine quits?""""
> And you realize that you actually created each and every piece of this
> plane!!!
> Some build clocks, some boats, some jewlery boxes,,,but rarely is the
> builders "arse" accountable for the result.
> And I look at the plane and say to myself,,,"I actually fabricated each
> and every part of this plane".
> I'm proud of the way my plane came out. And I wish it was as good as
> others I've seen. but all through my building process, my Mentor's words
> rattled in my head every time I held the piece up and gave it a final look.
> " In building airplanes,,,there's no such thing as ""That's good enough""
> (Dick Lawson EAA#272)
> walt evans
> NX140DL
> PS think about things like this when it's a rainy day, and know that
> winter's comming.
> *Ain't life grand!*
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Johnson" <ddjohn(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Dick
Our gliders use a stiff milar taped to the hor stab & vert stab.
My glider has closed cell foan glued to both surfaces with contact cement.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Navratil
Subject: Pietenpol-List: gap seals
I know that gap seals hve been discussed before, but I just want to ad a bit more
to it. At Broadhead I had discussed my takeoff problems with a few of you.
If I wasn't careful and didn't add power slowly, while pinning the stick foward,
the plane would want to fly before it had the speed. This would cause the
plane to want to stall at the ground. I thought this might be the way a Piet
flew.
After telling my story to the old timers sitting around after all had left, they
told me not to look at moving the gear aft as I was thinking but to gap seal
the elevators. I have piano hinge on the ailerions so I hadn't thought much
about the elevators.
After locating some duct tape at Brodhead I taped up the elevators. Right away
it flew like a completely diffrent plane.
It is much easier to handle on takeoff, tail comes right up and the stick is much
lighter. On landing it is more responsive. In cruise it adds about 2 mph.
My only question in all of this is, what to replace the duct tape with for a permanent
addition? My first thought is a closed cell foam that we use at work
as an expansion joint in concrete. Next might be strips of leather or a mylar
tape.
Any suggestions?
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
controllers ??
| Subject: | Re: do you have to talk with air traffic |
controllers ??
Years back some friends came to me after reading about a recent plane crash at
a local grass strip in the Orlando Sentinel. The writer had volunteered a comment
in the article that there was no control tower at the airport (no relevance
to the accident, obviously). The article implied that airports without control
towers were unsafe. My friends were shocked to read this 'news'.
I asked them why they weren't shocked that there weren't traffic lights at every
intersection of two roads, and how they managed to survive 4-way stop signs
every day.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: do you have to talk with air traffic controllers ??
Another common question is this one and my answer always surprises
people. I tell them that you can legally fly
a plane like our from coast to coast without ever having to talk with
anyone at anytime. My first two times to Oshkosh
I went 100% non-radio in 1998 and 1999. Since then they have really
tightened up the rules on NORDO approaches
to Oshkosh, but it still can be done.
Since then I bought myself a nice Icom handheld and really find between
that and a puff or two of smoke in the pattern
increases my safety and of those in the air around me.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Options decisions |
I just got two of Tony Bingelis' books. I promised myself I was going to read them
before I started an airplane, and I'm glad I have so far.
I I read, I've had some questions about options specific to the Piet. I've got
the plans, including the supplementals and 3-piece wing drawings. I'm just trying
to decide what makes sense for me. I'm 6'2" and 200lb, so I expect the long
fuselage and the seat setback will be in order. I haven't put together a mockup,
but it's coming.
I was planning on building the 3-piece wing, but then I read that the typical three-piece
wing adds significantly more weight to the plane. Now I'm wondering
if this holds true specifically for the Piet.
I've also seen comments that the Piet tube-and-fabric fuselage is significantly
lighter than the wood one. I'm comfortable welding 4130 tubing, so I can go either
way.
I currently own a J-3, but if I take my wife for a ride, I'm about 70 lb over gross,
so useful load in an airplane is one of my hot buttons. I'm not going to
set myself up again for this problem, certainly not from the start, anyhow.
Jim Ash
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: lift strut strap buckling |
If it is the strap between the gear fittings on each side that you are talking
off, Greg and Dale have them on their pietenpol. The strap takes the tensile
loads and the ash takes the compressive loads.
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 6:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: lift strut strap buckling
Jeff,
I too have seen this on many Piets, typically in the front strap.
It must be hard landings where not only is the lift strut loading that strap
in compression, but the gear bungee attachment is pulling that strut fitting down
at the same time. I think this introduces a kind of downward "rolling" motion
in that fitting which wants to buckle that belly strap.
Most people just add more bolts.
Interesting note, I've never seen it on a axle-geared Piet.
Good luck
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
that is what greg and dale get from their 72 42 homebuilt prop copied from an old
sensenich blade.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE:
In a message dated 8/16/2005 7:13:59 AM Central Standard Time, harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
writes:
The word I have is 42 p and 72 length gives 2150 rpm 70 -71 mph at cruise 85-87
tops.
That's about what I get from my homebuilt 72 X 42 prop, with Cont. A65 engine.
I added aerodynamic fairings to the gear legs, and jury struts, and now I have
to hold some forward stick pressure. I plan on removing the fixed trim tabs
on the flippers. The fairings helped clean up the parasite drag, a little
bit.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
"Pietenpol" ,
"Corvair"
Does anybody know where I can download, in pdf format, the entire FAR part 23 on
light airplane certification. It normally goes by "14 CFR Part 23" and I am
looking to download it once in its entirety instead of the 500 subparts, one
at a time...
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M&M Stanley" <tomiya(at)di.mbn.or.jp> |
| Subject: | Re: Piet model vid |
Hi Walt,
Thanks for sharing the Piet vid site with us. As a modeler myself, it is
good to see that the model Piet's are being built & flown in many parts of
the world, just like the real thing!
Currently working on the end spinach with some spruce that Arthur Johnson
donated to me (Thanks again Arthur!!) on his way to Brodhead/Osh this last
month.
My wing ribs are completed.
Regards
Mark S
Japan,
Typhoon #'s 11 & 12 have just come to life to the south of Japan, could get
wet this week !
________________________________________________________________________________
<007b01c5a5f4$45a76a10$0301a8c0@north>
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: lift strut strap buckling |
Chris and everyone else who responded-
Wow! Thanks for all of the information. The list consensus seems to
be that, as stated in the plans, the strap is optional, but a good
idea. In what may be an abundance of caution, we replaced the strap
this weekend.
Thanks again,
Jeff
>If it is the strap between the gear fittings on each side that you
>are talking off, Greg and Dale have them on their pietenpol. The
>strap takes the tensile loads and the ash takes the compressive
>loads.
>
>chris
>Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>Douwe Blumberg
>To: pietenpolgroup
>Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 6:54 AM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: lift strut strap buckling
>
>Jeff,
>
>I too have seen this on many Piets, typically in the front strap.
>
>It must be hard landings where not only is the lift strut loading
>that strap in compression, but the gear bungee attachment is pulling
>that strut fitting down at the same time. I think this introduces a
>kind of downward "rolling" motion in that fitting which wants to
>buckle that belly strap.
>
>Most people just add more bolts.
>
>Interesting note, I've never seen it on a axle-geared Piet.
>
>Good luck
>
>Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitty <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NEed a pdf file |
Christian,
Do you have a link to the webpage of FAR part 23?I can
convert web to pdf
--- Christian Bobka wrote:
> Does anybody know where I can download, in pdf
> format, the entire FAR part 23 on light airplane
> certification. It normally goes by "14 CFR Part 23"
> and I am looking to download it once in its entirety
> instead of the 500 subparts, one at a time...
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NEed a pdf file |
Mitty, yes. It is on this page and it appears UNDER all the links on this
page in its entirety.
I can take care of the few graphs and charts that are otherwise unreadable.
Thanks!
Cheers,
Chris
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=3dcd582f14ee6e6d12c2bc1c9102e5e6&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.9&idno=14#14:1.0.1.3.9.0.59
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitty" <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: NEed a pdf file
>
> Christian,
> Do you have a link to the webpage of FAR part 23?I can
> convert web to pdf
>
> --- Christian Bobka wrote:
>
> > Does anybody know where I can download, in pdf
> > format, the entire FAR part 23 on light airplane
> > certification. It normally goes by "14 CFR Part 23"
> > and I am looking to download it once in its entirety
> > instead of the 500 subparts, one at a time...
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NEed a pdf file |
In a message dated 8/21/2005 11:14:39 AM Central Standard Time,
sbobka(at)charter.net writes:
Mitty, yes. It is on this page and it appears UNDER all the links on this
page in its entirety.
I can take care of the few graphs and charts that are otherwise unreadable.
Thanks!
Cheers,
Chris
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=3dcd582f14ee6e6d12c2b
c1c9102e5e6&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.9&idno=14#14:1.0.1.3.9.0.59
Chris,
I just checked out that site, and yes, there seems to be the whole thing
there. I'm just curious...Why couldn't you just hit 'print', and have a hard
copy? It would be many pages.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NEed a pdf file |
Chuck,
I need to be able to take it with me when I fly around the world on long trips.
I already have a bag that weighs about 75 pounds with all my crap that I normally
have to carry. Putting it in PDF and reducing the weight down to the weight
of a CD or putting it on the hard disk is really the best option. I have
copies of the reg right here. It is just not in a form that is most useable.
I am doing the strenth substatiation of the Z-3 Flitzer Falke. I need to refer
to the reg from time to time to keep the work moving along...
Cheers,
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: NEed a pdf file
In a message dated 8/21/2005 11:14:39 AM Central Standard Time, sbobka(at)charter.net
writes:
Mitty, yes. It is on this page and it appears UNDER all the links on this
page in its entirety.
I can take care of the few graphs and charts that are otherwise unreadable.
Thanks!
Cheers,
Chris
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?cecfr&sid3dcd582f14ee6e6d12c2bc1c9102e5e6&rgndiv5&viewtext&node14:1.0.1.3.9&idno14#14:1.0.1.3.9.0.59
Chris,
I just checked out that site, and yes, there seems to be the whole thing there.
I'm just curious...Why couldn't you just hit 'print', and have a hard copy?
It would be many pages.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DONALD COOLEY <adonjr(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Hello Group,
I was wondering.....how about using piano hinges for elevators? The only
real drawback I can see is that it wouldn't look "authentic". Maybe function
dictates form? I plan using piano hinges for the ailerons, so this seems not
too out of line. Comments?
BTW, I just returned from the NWAAC Fly-in at McMinnville, Oregon. There
was not a single Piet at this fairly prestigious event. Mine is still probably
several years from attending. Will it be the first? Where are all the Left
Coast Piets? The world awaits an answer!
Keep the sawdust flyin'! Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: left coast piets |
They're all on Vancouver Island. :-)
The oldest continuously registered aircraft in Canada, CF-AOG,
is flying off a private strip, one is flying out of Naniamo and the
other is completed and in flight testing, again, at Naniamo.
I almost forgot! It appears Dave Rowe has been posted to
the far Atlantic Coast somewhere. I don't know the status of
both his planes but some time ago they were under tarps
in the corner of a hanger at Pat Bay ( Victoria International ).
The attached photo is the one currently testing, built by Dean Sevold.
Powered by a Ford "B"
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: DONALD COOLEY
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: gap seals
Hello Group,
I was wondering.....how about using piano hinges for elevators? The only
real drawback I can see is that it wouldn't look "authentic". Maybe function
dictates form? I plan using piano hinges for the ailerons, so this seems not
too out of line. Comments?
BTW, I just returned from the NWAAC Fly-in at McMinnville, Oregon. There
was not a single Piet at this fairly prestigious event. Mine is still probably
several years from attending. Will it be the first? Where are all the Left
Coast Piets? The world awaits an answer!
Keep the sawdust flyin'! Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Options decisions |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Jim,
One thing to conisder (and you already seem to be considering weight) is
that the long fuselage adds considerable weight to the airplane.
Somewhere on the list archives is a thread about weight and CG as
surveyed at Brodhead a few years ago. Invariably, the long fuselage
Piets weighed well over 700 lbs empty, wheras the short fuselage
versions usually come in somewhere in the low 600's. Mine is not only a
long fuselage, but is 1" wider than plans (I'm also 6'2" and 200 lbs).
Empty weight is 745 lbs, and it really suffers poor climb performance on
a hot day. I flew formation with Mike Cuy to Brodhead and his plane
consistently outclimbed mine (not that his climb performance was
spectacular). I still have yet to take a passenger up in mine - I'm
waiting for the weather to cool off so the density altitudes come down a
bit.
Having said that, I still think I would build a long fuselage if I had
it to do over again. It is more comfortable, and if you are going to
fly it any distance, comfort becomes pretty important. But I would put
a more powerful engine than a Continental A65 in it. I'd go with a
Corvair or a C85 or O-200.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
I just got two of Tony Bingelis' books. I promised myself I was going to
read them before I started an airplane, and I'm glad I have so far.
I I read, I've had some questions about options specific to the Piet.
I've got the plans, including the supplementals and 3-piece wing
drawings. I'm just trying to decide what makes sense for me. I'm 6'2"
and 200lb, so I expect the long fuselage and the seat setback will be in
order. I haven't put together a mockup, but it's coming.
I was planning on building the 3-piece wing, but then I read that the
typical three-piece wing adds significantly more weight to the plane.
Now I'm wondering if this holds true specifically for the Piet.
I've also seen comments that the Piet tube-and-fabric fuselage is
significantly lighter than the wood one. I'm comfortable welding 4130
tubing, so I can go either way.
I currently own a J-3, but if I take my wife for a ride, I'm about 70 lb
over gross, so useful load in an airplane is one of my hot buttons. I'm
not going to set myself up again for this problem, certainly not from
the start, anyhow.
Jim Ash
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Arthur Johnson from Australia visits Brodhead, 2005 |
Guys-- (especially Mark Stanley),
Had the pleasure of meeting Piet builder Arthur Johnson at Brodhead. Here
is a photo of him in front of my Air Camper.
Arthur just got in from Japan where he stopped to see Piet builder and
fellow bloke Mark Stanley from the list. What
a whirlwind of travel. Arthur showed me a set of photos showing his
beautiful workmanship on his Air Camper back home.
It is going to be a beauty.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Options decisions |
Jim-- Jack is correct in generalizing that the long fuselage Piets are
usually heavier than the shorter
version but that is not always the case. Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy is a
long fuselage, Cont. 65 powered
plane with no brakes and a tailskid and his empty weight is a few pounds
lighter than my 632 pounder.
You can keep the weight down. Douwe was talking with me at Brodhead and
he is very weight-concious
while building which you have to be if you want the plane to perform
decently. It is marginal enough without
saddling the wings with more than they really need to be lifting.
I feel for guys like Jack who, out of necessity, by the airspace they fly
in and around have to add things like encoding
altimeters and electrical systems.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
Has anybody heard how Charlie is doing of late? I visited with him at
Brodhead and got an update on his condition -- he was going in for surgery the
following week. Just wondering if anyone has heard latest...hope he's doing well.
As for my Piet project I'm getting ready to place an order for nuts and bolts
so I can start bolting pieces to the fuselage, i.e. landing gear fittings,
struts, control sticks, etc.
Beautiful day here in La Crosse, WI -- and I took a vacation day! A bad day
Piet building (no such thing) beats a good day at work anytime!
Great stuff on this list lately -- many thanks to all the experts!
!
Fred B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M&M Stanley" <tomiya(at)di.mbn.or.jp> |
| Subject: | Re: Arthur Johnson from Australia visits Brodhead, 2005 |
G'day Blokes,
Thanks Mike for the Great shot of Arthur Johnson & your Piet. Arthur showed
me the photos of his Piet in OZ, (OZ = Australia for those who don't know).
I have to agree with Mike, the Piet will be a beauty. Arthur is a great
bloke and I hope lot's of you got to meet him at Brodhead.
I have attached a shot of Arthur Johnson, Takamichi Mita & myself with Mr.
Mita's Piet during Arthur's visit to Japan during July on his way to
Brodhead/Osh.
Mark S
Japan
> Had the pleasure of meeting Piet builder Arthur Johnson at Brodhead.
> Arthur just got in from Japan
> Mike C.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nav8799h(at)aol.com |
I would like to take a minute to thank all of those on this list that have
unknowingly contributed to the successful building and eventual first flights
of N799LJ. I have been a lurker on this list for the last 3-1/2 years while
building this ship. I must say that all of the information needed to support
a builder is available on this site. Saturday, I was able to get in the
first flight of about 1/2 hour around the pattern in fairly rough air, not
proving much other than the plane would fly. Last night, however, I was able
to
get another flight of close to 1 hour in smooth beautiful air, just prior to
sundown, what a trip.
Plane flew fine, there is no requirements for rigging adjustment, plane
essentially flys hands off. All engine temperatures and pressures were normal.
Plane flies at 175 MPH @ 2250 RPM behind a C-85-12 turning a Sturba 72-44
wooden prop. I obviously have not gotten a chance to check climb performance
but it is significantly better than the Cub that I have been flying. Fifty MPH
on final sets up for 3 point landings that are a piece of cake.
Lou Wither
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
CONGRATULATIONS LOU!!!
Great feeling, isn't it?
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Nav8799h(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First flights
I would like to take a minute to thank all of those on this list that
have unknowingly contributed to the successful building and eventual
first flights of N799LJ. I have been a lurker on this list for the last
3-1/2 years while building this ship. I must say that all of the
information needed to support a builder is available on this site.
Saturday, I was able to get in the first flight of about 1/2 hour around
the pattern in fairly rough air, not proving much other than the plane
would fly. Last night, however, I was able to get another flight of
close to 1 hour in smooth beautiful air, just prior to sundown, what a
trip.
Plane flew fine, there is no requirements for rigging adjustment, plane
essentially flys hands off. All engine temperatures and pressures were
normal. Plane flies at 175 MPH @ 2250 RPM behind a C-85-12 turning a
Sturba 72-44 wooden prop. I obviously have not gotten a chance to check
climb performance but it is significantly better than the Cub that I
have been flying. Fifty MPH on final sets up for 3 point landings that
are a piece of cake.
Lou Wither
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First flights |
From a fellow lurker, CONGRATULATIONS!! on your first
flights. It's great to hear another wonderful
airplane takes to the air (of course I am quite
impressed with the 175 MPH at 2250 RPM and behind a
C-85 none the less. :) Best wishes and many happy
flying hours to you and your new plane.
Doc H
--- Nav8799h(at)aol.com wrote:
> I would like to take a minute to thank all of those
> on this list that have
> unknowingly contributed to the successful building
> and eventual first flights
> of N799LJ. I have been a lurker on this list for
> the last 3-1/2 years while
> building this ship. I must say that all of the
> information needed to support
> a builder is available on this site. Saturday, I
> was able to get in the
> first flight of about 1/2 hour around the pattern in
> fairly rough air, not
> proving much other than the plane would fly. Last
> night, however, I was able to
> get another flight of close to 1 hour in smooth
> beautiful air, just prior to
> sundown, what a trip.
>
> Plane flew fine, there is no requirements for
> rigging adjustment, plane
> essentially flys hands off. All engine temperatures
> and pressures were normal.
> Plane flies at 175 MPH @ 2250 RPM behind a C-85-12
> turning a Sturba 72-44
> wooden prop. I obviously have not gotten a chance
> to check climb performance
> but it is significantly better than the Cub that I
> have been flying. Fifty MPH
> on final sets up for 3 point landings that are a
> piece of cake.
>
> Lou Wither
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Builders in North Dakota / Minnesota |
Dan,
Sound great!
I just finished a 16' by 32 inch rolling table with adjustable casters for the
project. I am on board with you in this project!
I currently have a hangar at Hawley Airport. I am finishing up with a Aircoupe
(complete restoration)! So I have lots of room also.
I have planned on using the corvair engine and have purchased two of them. I look
forward to this set-up as I have read many good things about that particular
motor.
I am very excited to get started with this project and look forward to working
together. My skills are i the artificial limb and brace business as I work in
Fargo, ND. I have plenty of finishing equipment and metal bending jigs that could
be very useful. My lab is large enough to work in creating some of the parts.
My home phone is 218-486-1963 and cell phone 701-793-3030.
Look forward to a meeting and discussion as to our next move.
Sincerely,
Ken Heide
Dan Loegering wrote:
Hi Ken,
I would be very interested in sharing ideas with you as your project progresses,
and maybe you could teach me a thing or two as well!
I am in Fargo, ND and am only slightly farther along than you at this point - purchased
plans about 4 months ago and have been working on getting the basement
ready for the project and researching all that I can on building practices and
Piet specific items. Just purchased the Tony Bengalis series while at Oshkosh
and have been reading these the last few weeks. My rib jig is nearly complete
and I was literally going to place the order for capstrip and ply for the ribs
today. (I'll hold off now though until we can talk)
I started this venture with another individual with the intent on building two
aircraft side by side, and this may still happen once work slows down a bit this
winter (he manages outside construction crews). Our intent was to be able to
purchase materials together and ease the shipping charges. Neither of us are
in a hurry to get them flying though and I am planning on about a 5 year project
- wing ribs through this winter - tail surfaces next spring, fuse next fall,
etc... The plan was that we would each work on a different jig and then swap
jigs around as we completed phases.
In talking with the local EAA chapter, I believe there is another Piet project
in the area, but he is inactive on it (doesn't want to sell though...).
Drop me an email at "danl(at)odayequipment.com" so we can chat - I'll be driving
through tonight on my way to Ottertail - can't stop tonight, but I'll swing
over some time with my Cardinal. Sure will be a blast to cruise the lakes with
a flight of Piet's though!
Dan Loegering
From: Kenneth Heide
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet builders in North Dakota/Minnesota
Members of the list:
I recently purchased a set of plans to build a Pietenpol. Anyone interested in
assisting me in and or around the Detroit Lakes, Minnesota area? Would enjoy working
with others to make this plane come to life.
I am a native of Albany, Wisconsin just 7 miles to the west of Brodhead, WI They
are some fantastic builders at that airport and well worth the time to visit.
Anyone interested please contact me at 218-486-1963 Home or Work 701-364-9100
Ken Heide
_
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Options decisions |
Thanks for the replies. I expected the long fuselage would be heavier, but I didn't
know how much.
I spent some time yesterday looking at the plans with a calculator. I didn't realize
how long the 'long' fuselage really is. I also noticed that the tubular
fuselage drawing is actually the shortest of the lot, at 161", if memory serves
(I'm at work and nowhere near the drawings). It's also got one less station
in the rear than the short woodies. Although the top part of the pilot's seat
area is a bit longer between stations, the bottom part is shorter. I haven't looked
at the angles, but I suspect this would put me in a more prone and knees-folded-up
position.
If I look at all three drawings concurrently, the long woody is roughly the same
as the short, with an inch or two extra added to select stations. If I want
to make a long fuselage of 4130 tubing, I'll have to come up with a similar lengthening
process. Having a seriously aft CG scares me; I plan on exiting every
spin I might enter.
As I babble, I guess I'm looking to find out:
1. Is there anybody here who built or owns a tube-and-fabric fuselage, and waddayathink?
2. What are the relative strengths between the short woody and the as-drawn tube-and-fabric
fuselage?
3. Of those who 'adjusted' their dimensions be it for personal comfort or whatever,
what were the changes and how were they derived (and why)?
4. The tube-and-fabric drawing specifies diagonal bracing at three stations, but
the wooden ones don't. I suspect it's because there's a sheet of wood across
these stations on the woodies, but is this true?
5. Has anybody done a weight comparison of the one-piece vs the three-piece wing?
6. Does somebody here have the tube-and-fabric fuselage drawing handy? Some of
the fine print (tubing sizes) is blurry on mine towards the front, and I could
use the numbers clarified. I got mine straight fron Don Pietenpol, so they're
not copies, but the printer must have had an off day.
On a different note, Tony Bingelis mentioned something that pulley sizes should
be a larger diameter when going around tighter angles. I see this isn't the case
for most of the aileron pulleys on the Piet. Is this because of the space
being too tight for larger pulleys? Has anybody used larger pulleys?
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Options decisions
Jim,
One thing to conisder (and you already seem to be considering weight) is
that the long fuselage adds considerable weight to the airplane.
...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Options decisions |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
HI Jim,
I tried to answer some of your questions below. You are asking good
questions!
I guess if you are comfortable with welding, the steel fuselage could be
built longer and would be lighter than wood. Making it wider would not
be as much of a problem with tubing. I must admit though that I like
the look of my wooden interior.
One change you might want to make is to provide more slant to the rear
seatback. I suggest you build a cockpit mockup and see if it is
comfortable for you. I wish I had done so - I would have then changed
the seatback angle to be more comfortable.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Jim Ash wrote:
...As I babble, I guess I'm looking to find out:
3. Of those who 'adjusted' their dimensions be it for personal comfort
or whatever, what were the changes and how were they derived (and why)?
Jim - I can say that the mods I made to mine were a 1" wider
fuselage and a 6" wider centersection in the wing. The fuselage was
made wider to give more room in the cockpit and I think it was a good
change, except for 2 issues - it added weight and it added cost. The
weight was due to more plywood and slightly more spruce, the cost was
due to the fact that I had to buy more than one sheet of plywood (not
possible to get 2, 25" widths out of a sheet of 4'x8' plywood). The
centersection was made wider to give more fuel capacity. My fuel is all
in the centersection and by making it wider I have a 15.5 gallon tank.
4. The tube-and-fabric drawing specifies diagonal bracing at three
stations, but the wooden ones don't. I suspect it's because there's a
sheet of wood across these stations on the woodies, but is this true?
I wondered about the lack of diagonal bracing in the wooden
fuselage but it doesn't seem to be a problem. Even a serious ground
loop that wrenched the tailwheel off the fuselage didn't cause any
twisting of the fuselage structure
5. Has anybody done a weight comparison of the one-piece vs the
three-piece wing?
I haven't done a comparison, but I can tell you the one piece is
lighter. The fittings that hold the 3 piece wings together and the
bolts, metal fairings, sheetmetal screws, etc all add up to several
pounds of weight. However, the 3 piece wing is A LOT easier to handle
during construction and transport to the airport. I know how heavy my
centersection was and I remember how difficult it was to hold it up
while installing it on the cabane struts and riging the roll wires. I
can't imagine having to do that with the entire wing
6. Does somebody here have the tube-and-fabric fuselage drawing handy?
Some of the fine print (tubing sizes) is blurry on mine towards the
front, and I could use the numbers clarified. I got mine straight fron
Don Pietenpol, so they're not copies, but the printer must have had an
off day.
On a different note, Tony Bingelis mentioned something that pulley sizes
should be a larger diameter when going around tighter angles. I see this
isn't the case for most of the aileron pulleys on the Piet. Is this
because of the space being too tight for larger pulleys? Has anybody
used larger pulleys?
I don't know on this one. I used the size called out in the
plans (or the closest larger size) and they seem to work fine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters:
I need a lot of help. Can't start engine without pouring raw fuel in the top
plug holes. Have started twice. First time it ran for about 10 seconds. Next
day, same priming procedure, it ran for about 15 seconds. Has anyone
experienced this behavior with your 65? I've overhauled the carb daily, new steel
needle and seat, gaskets. I took the brass revolving plate, mixture, out. Read
the A-65 manual until the print is fading also the Stromberg NA-S3A1 manual.
The only thing I can't comply with from the manual is the 18 inch head of fuel
above the carb. I only have 8 inches from tank bottom to carb bottom.
Will one of you engine know-hows please come to my rescue?
Mags are very hot from rebuild. Engine has new bearings, guides, rings etc.
Thanks in advance
Corky In La trying to start this d--- thing in 102 temp.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt evans" <wbeevans(at)verizon.net> |
Corky,
My first thought and then I'll think more later,,,
Remember the first time that I put fuel in my tank, and I had just rebuilt the
carb to the book,,,I thought the carb would just fill up when I opened the gas
shut off. But it didn't. Forget how I vented the bowl to get gas into it, but
it was strange.
Sound like the bowl is strangly empty.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Pieters:
I need a lot of help. Can't start engine without pouring raw fuel in the top
plug holes. Have started twice. First time it ran for about 10 seconds. Next day,
same priming procedure, it ran for about 15 seconds. Has anyone experienced
this behavior with your 65? I've overhauled the carb daily, new steel needle
and seat, gaskets. I took the brass revolving plate, mixture, out. Read the A-65
manual until the print is fading also the Stromberg NA-S3A1 manual. The only
thing I can't comply with from the manual is the 18 inch head of fuel above
the carb. I only have 8 inches from tank bottom to carb bottom.
Will one of you engine know-hows please come to my rescue?
Mags are very hot from rebuild. Engine has new bearings, guides, rings etc.
Thanks in advance
Corky In La trying to start this d--- thing in 102 temp.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Walt,
The bowl is full each time I remove it to "try something else". Tomorrow I
will set the fuel level a bit higher, if I can find a washer thin enough. As I
said ,I installed a new needle and seat valve so it may be needing a
slightly higher fuel level.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
You could do piano hinge on the elevators. You would have to change the dimensions
on the rear of the stab and the front of the elev to be able to trim off
material, so it would get full up and down motion. Other than that it would
probably be fine.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: DONALD COOLEY
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 12:38 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: gap seals
Hello Group,
I was wondering.....how about using piano hinges for elevators? The only
real drawback I can see is that it wouldn't look "authentic". Maybe function
dictates form? I plan using piano hinges for the ailerons, so this seems not
too out of line. Comments?
BTW, I just returned from the NWAAC Fly-in at McMinnville, Oregon. There
was not a single Piet at this fairly prestigious event. Mine is still probably
several years from attending. Will it be the first? Where are all the Left
Coast Piets? The world awaits an answer!
Keep the sawdust flyin'! Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin GPS196 for dummies |
Okay, I'll admit it. I'm a dummy. I just talked myself into a Garmin
GPS196 (black & white) and it comes with a free download of the database
update. However... nowhere in the manual can I find how to go about
downloading the update and installing it to the GPS. I know there is an
interface cable for my PC, but beyond that I'm clueless as to how to snag
and download the update.
GPS196 users who can help me, please email off-list at taildrags(at)hotmail.com
or point me to some instructions somewhere. Thanks.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Mods to Model A engine mount.... |
My fuse is 1" wider than plans and I have a Model A mount that is built to plans....so
when I bolt on the 3/4" tubing braces, the holes that the ash sits on
are spaced 1" too far apart.
I considered adding a 1/2" piece of ash to each side of each of the bearers (to
move them toward each other 1/2" each tomake up the 1") but that adds a bit of
a moment arm.....probably not an issue but I would rather keep the engine as
close to the center line of the tubing holes as possible.
I can notch the tubing per the attached picture and weld the gap shut. The bend
works out to approximately 3 degrees, which means I'll notch out a .04" gap
(not much more than the width of my saw blade) and then weld that back together.
(My preference is to do NO cutting and welding......)
Since I only need a 3 degree bend over a 19" distance (for a change in the hole
location of 1/2" on each side of the engine mount) I'm considering heating the
tubing up and bending it in 1/2". Maybe heating up a 12" length (rather than
a short distance) would not compromise the strength of the tubing......would
that work?
I'm obviously going to run this by my EAA Tech Counselor but these solutions seem
more than adequate....but I sure would like a sanity check from anyone who
cares to help me out here.
Suggestions? Notch/weld or heat/bend?
I welcome all input!
Thanks!
Jim in Plano
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mods to Model A engine mount.... |
I like the heat and bend option.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Markle
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:19 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mods to Model A engine mount....
My fuse is 1" wider than plans and I have a Model A mount that is built to plans....so
when I bolt on the 3/4" tubing braces, the holes that the ash sits on
are spaced 1" too far apart.
I considered adding a 1/2" piece of ash to each side of each of the bearers (to
move them toward each other 1/2" each tomake up the 1") but that adds a bit
of a moment arm.....probably not an issue but I would rather keep the engine
as close to the center line of the tubing holes as possible.
I can notch the tubing per the attached picture and weld the gap shut. The bend
works out to approximately 3 degrees, which means I'll notch out a .04" gap
(not much more than the width of my saw blade) and then weld that back together.
(My preference is to do NO cutting and welding......)
Since I only need a 3 degree bend over a 19" distance (for a change in the hole
location of 1/2" on each side of the engine mount) I'm considering heating
the tubing up and bending it in 1/2". Maybe heating up a 12" length (rather than
a short distance) would not compromise the strength of the tubing......would
that work?
I'm obviously going to run this by my EAA Tech Counselor but these solutions
seem more than adequate....but I sure would like a sanity check from anyone who
cares to help me out here.
Suggestions? Notch/weld or heat/bend?
I welcome all input!
Thanks!
Jim in Plano
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Mods to Model A engine mount.... |
The welding at the bolt tube joint has already eliminated the
heat treating of the metal for a couple of inches up the tube,
so heating and bending a short length next to the bolt bracket
would probably be OK. Come to think about it, that bit of the
tube is already softened and may just bend the 3=B0 you need.
If you're planning on 12", that's a significant percentage of
the tube length, well over half. The whole idea of that brace
is that the line of force lines up with the center of the tube.
If you bend it at all, especially with strength destroying heat,
you're compromising the structure, a lot. Would you do that
to your wing struts? You might get away with it if you tied
them together in the middle. If you're going to bend the things
only 1/2" over 19" you might as well just pull them in and then
put a small dia brace strut between them, as on the wing struts.
That way the 4130 heat treated strength will still be there. That
engine is pretty heavy and gets a lot "heavier" when maneuvering.
Myself, I would reheat the already softened area within a couple
of inches of the bolt tube and gently push the other end over
a bit, check it, do it again, etc. If at a degree or so it appeared
to be flattening then stop and ponder. Are you sure it's 3=B0? I
just drew it out and it looks more like two. Not much of a bend.
By working close to the bolt tube if you do get into trouble it
would then be easy to add a gusset.
Clif
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mods to Model A engine mount....
Since I only need a 3 degree bend over a 19" distance (for a change in the hole
location of 1/2" on each side of the engine mount) I'm considering heating
the tubing up and bending it in 1/2". Maybe heating up a 12" length (rather than
a short distance) would not compromise the strength of the tubing......would
that work?
I'm obviously going to run this by my EAA Tech Counselor but these solutions
seem more than adequate....but I sure would like a sanity check from anyone who
cares to help me out here.
Suggestions? Notch/weld or heat/bend?
I welcome all input!
Thanks!
Jim in Plano
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nav8799h(at)AOL.COM |
I had the exact same problem on the C-85 with that carb. Try venting the
fuel from the float bowl. I pulled the carb off the engine and found no fuel
in the bowl, reassembled and vented the bowl and we were able to get the thing
running. Haven't had a problem since.
I have about 10" from bottom to tank to bowl, engine runs fine in the normal
attitude with just a small amount, less than 1 gallon in the tank.
Lou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Corky,
Eight inches is not much (unless you're talking about something dirtier
than airplane engines). Of course, what the carburetor sees is not the
height to the bottom of the fuel tank, but to the top of the fuel. Is
your tank full when you are trying to start it? Have you tried a fuel
flow test to see what flow rate you get from the tank if you have the
fuel line disconnected from the carb (but at the same height as the
connector going into the float chamber)? You should see at least 7
gallons per hour through the fuel line in this test. Is the 8" you
mentioned with the plane in a 3 point position or level flight? If that
is the level flight position, you might have even less in the 3 point
position.
One thing I found when I was first getting my engine to run was that a
slight leak in the intake system causes a severe drop in fuel mixture,
making it run very lean (which makes it hard to start).
The other thing I found was that Slick had made my ignition harness
incorrectly (brand new mags and harness), and two of my cylinders were
firing in the wrong sequence. Once I figured out which ones were off
and swapped the leads around to get the right firing order, it started
right up. Before then, it was very difficult to start, and ran very
rough - just running on two cylinders. When yours runs on the primer,
does it run smoothly for the 10 or 15 seconds that it runs, or is it
rough?
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Pieters:
I need a lot of help. Can't start engine without pouring raw fuel in the
top plug holes. Have started twice. First time it ran for about 10
seconds. Next day, same priming procedure, it ran for about 15 seconds.
Has anyone experienced this behavior with your 65? I've overhauled the
carb daily, new steel needle and seat, gaskets. I took the brass
revolving plate, mixture, out. Read the A-65 manual until the print is
fading also the Stromberg NA-S3A1 manual. The only thing I can't comply
with from the manual is the 18 inch head of fuel above the carb. I only
have 8 inches from tank bottom to carb bottom.
Will one of you engine know-hows please come to my rescue?
Mags are very hot from rebuild. Engine has new bearings, guides, rings
etc.
Thanks in advance
Corky In La trying to start this d--- thing in 102 temp.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GPS196 for dummies |
>Sometimes you can get downloads off the google site.Ask for the company that the
gps is made from and they may have a download page.
Maybe!
> From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
> Date: 2005/08/22 Mon PM 10:04:19 EST
> To: krnet(at)mylist.net, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Garmin GPS196 for dummies
>
>
> Okay, I'll admit it. I'm a dummy. I just talked myself into a Garmin
> GPS196 (black & white) and it comes with a free download of the database
> update. However... nowhere in the manual can I find how to go about
> downloading the update and installing it to the GPS. I know there is an
> interface cable for my PC, but beyond that I'm clueless as to how to snag
> and download the update.
>
> GPS196 users who can help me, please email off-list at taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> or point me to some instructions somewhere. Thanks.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tape to use on airlerons and elevator |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I'd like to know what is the best tape to use in these places for gap
cover?I will order the one you guys say is best.Thanks in advance for
any advice.
________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tape to use on airlerons and elevator |
In a message dated 8/23/2005 11:59:59 AM Central Standard Time,
harvey.rule(at)bell.ca writes:
I=E2=80=99d like to know what is the best tape to use in these places for gap cover?I
will order the one you guys say is best.Thanks in advance for any advice.
I used covering material process, applied to both sides, before paint.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 8/22/2005 12:40:09 AM Central Standard Time,
adonjr(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
I was wondering.....how about using piano hinges for elevators? The
only real drawback I can see is that it wouldn't look "authentic". Maybe
function dictates form? I plan using piano hinges for the ailerons, so this seems
not too out of line. Comments?
Don,
I've never seen piano hinges used on the empenage. I suggest you contact Vi
Kappler, and purchase his cast aluminum hinges. Many Pietenpols out there,
including mine, use his empenage hinges. He worked with Bernard Pietenpol for
years. If you give him a call, have a bunch of other questions ready to ask
him, while you have him on the phone.
Vitalis Kapler
1033 Forest Hill Dr. WS
Rochester, MN 55902
phone: 507-288-3322
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | A-65 Oil Pressure |
Pieters,
We have the engine running, finally. Had to cut it off as there is no oil
pressure. I filled the oil outlet to the gauge with oil but nothing happened.
Any comments.
Corky in only 100 degrees today
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Oil Pressure |
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
Corky,
Sounds like your oil pump is not primed. Try raising the tail above your
head for a few seconds. I used to fly a Champ that required this if it sat
for awhile.
TakeCare,
-john-
> Pieters,
>
> We have the engine running, finally. Had to cut it off as there is no oil
> pressure. I filled the oil outlet to the gauge with oil but nothing happened.
> Any comments.
>
> Corky in only 100 degrees today
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Oil Pressure |
In a message dated 8/23/2005 6:51:37 PM Central Standard Time,
jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com writes:
Corky,
Sounds like your oil pump is not primed. Try raising the tail above your
head for a few seconds. I used to fly a Champ that required this if it sat
for awhile.
TakeCare,
-john-
I've used this method too, and it was successful. On a previous occassion,
after having had the fuselage in a level position for doing gear mod, I tried
filling a dry oil pump by filling it through the oil pressure line. It took a
least a half hour for the oil in the homemade funnel to slowly make it's way
in. That was also successful. It's just much easier to just raise the tail,
and allow the oil in the screen filter to prime the pump.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Oil Pressure |
Corky,
Try this method to prime the oil pump:
1. Remove the oil temperature bulb from the oil screen.
2. Shoot some fresh oil into the oil screen with an oil squirt can. Be generous!
3. Re-install oil temperature bulb.
4. Start engine and you should get an oil pressure indication within 30 seconds.
If not, try connecting an oil pressure gauge to the O/P outlet with a short
line (sometimes there is an indication lag with a long line).
I have used this method for over fifty years on small Continentals when raising
the tail didn't produce results.
Let me know how it works for you.
Cheers,
Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mods to Model A engine mount.... |
Thanks Clif!
Bending near the bolt bracket sounds like the ticket!
Am I sure it's 3=B0?
Well, a 1" rise on a triangle with a base (or slope) of 19" works out to about
3 degrees.....so...hey wait.....oops....it should have been a 1/2" rise (duh,
I suppose there's no reason to make up the ENTIRE 1" difference on one side!!!).....uhhh,
a 1/2" rise across 19" is actually 1.51 degrees...so yeah, about 2
degrees.....even better!
I'm gonna heat and bend......
I saw somewhere that you can take a tubing bend out by heating one side of the
tubing to make it draw the tubing in a particular direction. I'm gonna try that.
I'm feeling a LOT better about this now...
thanks again.
(I LOVE this process!!!)
Jim in Plano.....looking forward to having some pockata-pockata sounds in my driveway
in a few weeks....
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A-65 Oil Pressure |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
What did you have to do to get it running, Corky? And how long did you
let it run before shutting it down? Mine often takes the full 30
seconds to get any indication on the oil pressure gage, as it is a long
way from the engine to the rear cockpit
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Oil Pressure
Pieters,
We have the engine running, finally. Had to cut it off as there is no
oil pressure. I filled the oil outlet to the gauge with oil but nothing
happened. Any comments.
Corky in only 100 degrees today
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Tape to use on airlerons and elevator |
>Thanks for the reply Chuck;that was one of the methods I had thought of but I
figured you guys had some preference to a particular type of tape.When you think
of it though,you don't really want a sticky surface in the middle anyway.I
will use 5 inch ceconite tape on the airlerones and I think the three inch should
be plenty on the tail.
> From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
> Date: 2005/08/23 Tue PM 05:17:03 EST
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tape to use on airlerons and elevator
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2005 11:59:59 AM Central Standard Time,
> harvey.rule(at)bell.ca writes:
> I?d like to know what is the best tape to use in these places for gap cover?I
> will order the one you guys say is best.Thanks in advance for any advice.
> I used covering material process, applied to both sides, before paint.
>
> Chuck G.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Oil Pressure |
Corky,
Have you purged the air from the oil pressure gauge line?
Oil pressure on ours took a LOOOOONG time to register on the gauge
until we purged all of the air from the gauge line.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 Oil Pressure
Pieters,
We have the engine running, finally. Had to cut it off as there is no oil pressure.
I filled the oil outlet to the gauge with oil but nothing happened. Any
comments.
Corky in only 100 degrees today
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Oil Pressure |
I'm working on that today.....Thanks It's been so damn hot here I can only
stand a few hours a day and I have to wait for my prop-er to show up.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/24/2005 08:28:37 AM
Congratulations Lou, I know how you must feel, you where not alone.
Saturday, August 20th @ 4 PM, my Pietenpol Air Camper Miss Banshee made
her first flight also.
The weather was great, a slight breeze form the south, Heat index of 105 F
and a density altitude of 2400 Ft.
The Airplane flies hands-off straight and the Corvair engine performs
flawless.
I must thank all of you Pietenpol listers for all the questions and answers
that have been posted, this list is truly a great resource for all
builders.
Every time a question arose during the construction phase, I was always
able to find answers on the list or in the archives.
Thank you All,
I will have to repay the favor by sharing my experience in the future.
I will start with this;
My Pietenpol is the improved long fuselage Air Camper.
Empty weight 680 Lbs
Split Landing gear with 6 x 6.00 wheels, Matco wheels and brakes
The main deviations from plans are:
1) Wheels are 3 forward of plans. (changed the landing gear V slightly)
2) Bungies replaced with coil springs.
3) Engine mount extended by to give Corvair more clearance to Firewall.
Engine O-164 Corvair, William Wynne conversion with front starter
Propeller: Tennessee prop. 64 x 34
Carburetor: Zenith 1821
I started this Pietenpol project in March of 2004 and build a little
every day.
I took me around 1780 Hours to complete it, (yes, thats right in a year
and a half and holding a day job)
Now its off to flying again, Yee-Haw!!
Hans van der Voort
Proud Owner/Builder/flyer of Pietenpol NX 15 KV Miss Banshee
Waller, 3XS7 Houston Sectional
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nav8799h(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
That is interesting that two had their first flight on the same day and at
nearly the same time. I was at 2:00 PM eastern time. I wonder how many of
these Pietenpols are completed and flown in a year. That might be an
interesting statistic.
I was 3-1/2 years of construction, however I was only working during the
winter season, generally from November through March. I never kept track of the
hours, I just used it as a hobby. My problem is; what am I going to do for
winter entertainment now?
Again congratulations on your first flight.
Lou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I know a Pete Vander Voort who lives in Manitick just outside of Ottawa are you
any relation to him.Your computer puts out some strange symbols;I don't know
if your aware of it.I should be ready to fly within the next month if all goes
well.Just in time to put her away for the winter.By the way what do you guys
do to winterize your plane,engine and everything.I use Downy fabric softener clothes
all over the plane wherever there is an opening to make sure the mice
don't get in.They don't like the smell of Downy.I'm not quite sure if there is
anything that can be sprayed in the cylinders.I heard that just squirting some
oil in is all that it really takes.I was given these things that look like they
go into the spark plug holes and they have what appears to be a crystal inside
the glass case.I'm not sure but I think they are for soaking up moisture.Anybody
else ever seen these things?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
Congratulations Lou, I know how you must feel, you where not alone.
Saturday, August 20th @ 4 PM, my Pietenpol Air Camper Miss Banshee made
her first flight also.
The weather was great, a slight breeze form the south, Heat index of 105 F
and a density altitude of 2400 Ft.
The Airplane flies hands-off straight and the Corvair engine performs
flawless.
I must thank all of you Pietenpol listers for all the questions and answers
that have been posted, this list is truly a great resource for all
builders.
Every time a question arose during the construction phase, I was always
able to find answers on the list or in the archives.
Thank you All,
I will have to repay the favor by sharing my experience in the future.
I will start with this;
My Pietenpol is the improved long fuselage Air Camper.
Empty weight 680 Lbs
Split Landing gear with 6 x 6.00 wheels, Matco wheels and brakes
The main deviations from plans are:
1) Wheels are 3 forward of plans. (changed the landing gear V slightly)
2) Bungies replaced with coil springs.
3) Engine mount extended by to give Corvair more clearance to Firewall.
Engine O-164 Corvair, William Wynne conversion with front starter
Propeller: Tennessee prop. 64 x 34
Carburetor: Zenith 1821
I started this Pietenpol project in March of 2004 and build a little
every day.
I took me around 1780 Hours to complete it, (yes, thats right in a year
and a half and holding a day job)
Now its off to flying again, Yee-Haw!!
Hans van der Voort
Proud Owner/Builder/flyer of Pietenpol NX 15 KV Miss Banshee
Waller, 3XS7 Houston Sectional
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/24/2005 09:02:34 AM
Lou,
Thanks, for my next project I lean towards a Culver Cadet.
Again wood build, 100 Hp but little faster.
Just need to find some costruction plans.
Hans
Nav8799h(at)aol.com
Sent by:
owner-pietenpol-l To
ist-server@matron pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
ics.com cc
Subject
08/24/2005 07:50 Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
That is interesting that two had their first flight on the same day and at
nearly the same time. I was at 2:00 PM eastern time. I wonder how many
of these Pietenpols are completed and flown in a year. That might be an
interesting statistic.
I was 3-1/2 years of construction, however I was only working during the
winter season, generally from November through March. I never kept track
of the hours, I just used it as a hobby. My problem is; what am I going to
do for winter entertainment now?
Again congratulations on your first flight.
Lou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/24/2005 09:08:58 AM
Harvey,
Could be, a few of my father's cousins moved from Holland to Canada in the
50's.
Myself I am a fresh import.
I do not plan to winterize the Pietepol, Texas weather does not know
Canadian winters.
Winter here looks like your summer.
For your engine I would use fogging oil, you get it at a boat supply store.
You use it to winterize boat engines.
Hans
harvey.rule@bell.
ca
Sent by: To
owner-pietenpol-l pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
ist-server@matron cc
ics.com
Subject
RE: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
08/24/2005 07:51
AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
I know a Pete Vander Voort who lives in Manitick just outside of Ottawa are
you any relation to him.Your computer puts out some strange symbols;I don't
know if your aware of it.I should be ready to fly within the next month if
all goes well.Just in time to put her away for the winter.By the way what
do you guys do to winterize your plane,engine and everything.I use Downy
fabric softener clothes all over the plane wherever there is an opening to
make sure the mice don't get in.They don't like the smell of Downy.I'm not
quite sure if there is anything that can be sprayed in the cylinders.I
heard that just squirting some oil in is all that it really takes.I was
given these things that look like they go into the spark plug holes and
they have what appears to be a crystal inside the glass case.I'm not sure
but I think they are for soaking up moisture.Anybody else ever seen these
things?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
Congratulations Lou, I know how you must feel, you where not alone.
Saturday, August 20th @ 4 PM, my Pietenpol Air Camper Miss Banshee
made
her first flight also.
The weather was great, a slight breeze form the south, Heat index of 105 F
and a density altitude of 2400 Ft.
The Airplane flies hands-off straight and the Corvair engine performs
flawless.
I must thank all of you Pietenpol listers for all the questions and answers
that have been posted, this list is truly a great resource for all
builders.
Every time a question arose during the construction phase, I was always
able to find answers on the list or in the archives.
Thank you All,
I will have to repay the favor by sharing my experience in the future.
I will start with this;
My Pietenpol is the improved long fuselage Air Camper.
Empty weight 680 Lbs
Split Landing gear with 6 x 6.00 wheels, Matco wheels and brakes
The main deviations from plans are:
1) Wheels are 3 forward of plans. (changed the landing gear V
slightly)
2) Bungies replaced with coil springs.
3) Engine mount extended by to give Corvair more clearance to
Firewall.
Engine O-164 Corvair, William Wynne conversion with front starter
Propeller: Tennessee prop. 64 x 34
Carburetor: Zenith 1821
I started this Pietenpol project in March of 2004 and build a little
every day.
I took me around 1780 Hours to complete it, (yes, thats right in a year
and a half and holding a day job)
Now its off to flying again, Yee-Haw!!
Hans van der Voort
Proud Owner/Builder/flyer of Pietenpol NX 15 KV Miss Banshee
Waller, 3XS7 Houston Sectional
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | tape to use on ailerons and elevator |
Harvey wrote-
>I'd like to know what is the best tape to use in these places for
>gap cover? I will order the one you guys say is best.
Well, I have not used this myself (yet), but one of the guys over on the
KRNet suggested "gaffers tape" for use on the wing gap seals on KRs. This
is tape that is used in movie sets to tape wiring down onto the floor, so it
doesn't have adhesive down the middle part of the tape... the part that
would be over the gap between the wing and the control surface. It's
available in an assortment of colors. Here's one example:
http://www34.pair.com/harrison/thetapeworks.com/progaff.htm
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Lou, if you're like me, you will want to relax and take it easy for a
month or so, then start wanting to build another airplane.
I got hooked on the RV-10 at OSH this year and am already cleaning up
the workshop in anticipation of starting on it. I want to see just how
easy a kit is compared to a REAL airplane project. I had to promise my
fiancee that I would not start working on it until next winter, but I
figure if I spend enough time drooling over the plans and info package
this fall (as well as remind her everytime we take a trip in the car,
"Gee honey, if we had the RV-10 we would have been there 4 hours ago")
she might relent and suggest that I get started on it this winter. I'm
already working that angle. We've got to go visit a friend of hers in
Northern Virginia over Labor Day, and it will be a 5-1/2 hour drive from
Raleigh. The RV could make the same trip in 51 minutes. Even the
Pietenpol could do it in 2-1/2 hours (the roads don't go straight).
I miss having an airplane in the basement.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Nav8799h(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
That is interesting that two had their first flight on the same day and
at nearly the same time. I was at 2:00 PM eastern time. I wonder how
many of these Pietenpols are completed and flown in a year. That might
be an interesting statistic.
I was 3-1/2 years of construction, however I was only working during the
winter season, generally from November through March. I never kept
track of the hours, I just used it as a hobby. My problem is; what am I
going to do for winter entertainment now?
Again congratulations on your first flight.
Lou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nav8799h(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
Well as far as the wife situation goes, we have a Navion as the other
airplane and she is pretty happy going places in that. In the short/long run
retirement is getting closer and I would like to find something to replace the
Navion with that is a little less expensive to own and operate. Requirements
are the gear has to be down all of the time and the prop does move in any other
direction other than around and around.
I cannot get to excited about the RV's, there are just too many of them
around, nothing exciting. Have been doing some research on the Barracuda (wheels
go up, and the prop moves) or the Glastar. I really don't know if putting a
kit together would be the same thing. It might be a little like the Barbie
houses when my daughter was small.
My basement is now clean and definitely needs something for this winter.
Maybe I'll go back to putting RC's together, use to do that years ago. Not
cheap, but less than the real thing.
Lou
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Thanks a million Hans.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
Harvey,
Could be, a few of my father's cousins moved from Holland to Canada in the
50's.
Myself I am a fresh import.
I do not plan to winterize the Pietepol, Texas weather does not know
Canadian winters.
Winter here looks like your summer.
For your engine I would use fogging oil, you get it at a boat supply store.
You use it to winterize boat engines.
Hans
harvey.rule@bell.
ca
Sent by: To
owner-pietenpol-l pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
ist-server@matron cc
ics.com
Subject
RE: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
08/24/2005 07:51
AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
I know a Pete Vander Voort who lives in Manitick just outside of Ottawa are
you any relation to him.Your computer puts out some strange symbols;I don't
know if your aware of it.I should be ready to fly within the next month if
all goes well.Just in time to put her away for the winter.By the way what
do you guys do to winterize your plane,engine and everything.I use Downy
fabric softener clothes all over the plane wherever there is an opening to
make sure the mice don't get in.They don't like the smell of Downy.I'm not
quite sure if there is anything that can be sprayed in the cylinders.I
heard that just squirting some oil in is all that it really takes.I was
given these things that look like they go into the spark plug holes and
they have what appears to be a crystal inside the glass case.I'm not sure
but I think they are for soaking up moisture.Anybody else ever seen these
things?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
Congratulations Lou, I know how you must feel, you where not alone.
Saturday, August 20th @ 4 PM, my Pietenpol Air Camper Miss Banshee
made
her first flight also.
The weather was great, a slight breeze form the south, Heat index of 105 F
and a density altitude of 2400 Ft.
The Airplane flies hands-off straight and the Corvair engine performs
flawless.
I must thank all of you Pietenpol listers for all the questions and answers
that have been posted, this list is truly a great resource for all
builders.
Every time a question arose during the construction phase, I was always
able to find answers on the list or in the archives.
Thank you All,
I will have to repay the favor by sharing my experience in the future.
I will start with this;
My Pietenpol is the improved long fuselage Air Camper.
Empty weight 680 Lbs
Split Landing gear with 6 x 6.00 wheels, Matco wheels and brakes
The main deviations from plans are:
1) Wheels are 3 forward of plans. (changed the landing gear V
slightly)
2) Bungies replaced with coil springs.
3) Engine mount extended by to give Corvair more clearance to
Firewall.
Engine O-164 Corvair, William Wynne conversion with front starter
Propeller: Tennessee prop. 64 x 34
Carburetor: Zenith 1821
I started this Pietenpol project in March of 2004 and build a little
every day.
I took me around 1780 Hours to complete it, (yes, thats right in a year
and a half and holding a day job)
Now its off to flying again, Yee-Haw!!
Hans van der Voort
Proud Owner/Builder/flyer of Pietenpol NX 15 KV Miss Banshee
Waller, 3XS7 Houston Sectional
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
Congrats to both of you on first flights.
On the question of winterizing- I just turn my engine over a couple of times
every few weeks and start it up on an occasional nice day. I'm in Minnesota
so a nice day can be 30+.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
>
> I know a Pete Vander Voort who lives in Manitick just outside of Ottawa
> are you any relation to him.Your computer puts out some strange symbols;I
> don't know if your aware of it.I should be ready to fly within the next
> month if all goes well.Just in time to put her away for the winter.By the
> way what do you guys do to winterize your plane,engine and everything.I
> use Downy fabric softener clothes all over the plane wherever there is an
> opening to make sure the mice don't get in.They don't like the smell of
> Downy.I'm not quite sure if there is anything that can be sprayed in the
> cylinders.I heard that just squirting some oil in is all that it really
> takes.I was given these things that look like they go into the spark plug
> holes and they have what appears to be a crystal inside the glass case.I'm
> not sure but I think they are for soaking up moisture.Anybody else ever
> seen these things?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
> Sent: August 24, 2005 8:29 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
>
>
> Congratulations Lou, I know how you must feel, you where not alone.
>
> Saturday, August 20th @ 4 PM, my Pietenpol Air Camper Miss Banshee
> made
> her first flight also.
>
> The weather was great, a slight breeze form the south, Heat index of 105 F
> and a density altitude of 2400 Ft.
>
> The Airplane flies hands-off straight and the Corvair engine performs
> flawless.
>
> I must thank all of you Pietenpol listers for all the questions and
> answers
> that have been posted, this list is truly a great resource for all
> builders.
> Every time a question arose during the construction phase, I was always
> able to find answers on the list or in the archives.
>
> Thank you All,
>
> I will have to repay the favor by sharing my experience in the future.
>
> I will start with this;
> My Pietenpol is the improved long fuselage Air Camper.
> Empty weight 680 Lbs
> Split Landing gear with 6 x 6.00 wheels, Matco wheels and brakes
> The main deviations from plans are:
> 1) Wheels are 3 forward of plans. (changed the landing gear V
> slightly)
> 2) Bungies replaced with coil springs.
> 3) Engine mount extended by to give Corvair more clearance to
> Firewall.
>
> Engine O-164 Corvair, William Wynne conversion with front starter
> Propeller: Tennessee prop. 64 x 34
> Carburetor: Zenith 1821
>
> I started this Pietenpol project in March of 2004 and build a little
> every day.
> I took me around 1780 Hours to complete it, (yes, thats right in a year
> and a half and holding a day job)
>
> Now its off to flying again, Yee-Haw!!
>
> Hans van der Voort
> Proud Owner/Builder/flyer of Pietenpol NX 15 KV Miss Banshee
> Waller, 3XS7 Houston Sectional
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
Pieters,
Thanks for all the helpful comments. I used most of them.
This morning before it reached 90 my man was proping after we had primed
each cyl through the top plugs. He pulled it through about 4 times and nothing.
On the next prop I moved the throttle to about 1/3 open. She fired. I had an
oil pressure guage fitted next to the case. Oil pressure began to show after
20 or so seconds finally up to 30 @ 1200 rpm. I would reduce the throttle
below 1000 and it would begin to stop so kept it at 1200 for about 5 minutes
but
each time I lowered it below 1000 it tried to die.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
something tells me that I must have a problem in the idle system somewhere.
But where?
I had taken the carb apart several times to clean and check everything
according to the manuals EXCEPT that little brass tube sticking up out of the
lower body. I have another old carb body so I put that little tube in the vise
and carefully turned the body until it loosened. I removed and examined.
Studying the manual this was the idle metering tube. The lower end being the idle
metering jet. It was blocked with no light to be seen through it. With some
brass safety wire I began to clean and sure enough there was a jet hole there.
I removed the carb on the engine, took it apart again and removed the idle
metering tube and guess what I found. Yep, no hole and it took quite awhile to
finally clean the gook out. It's clean now and all reassembled. When my
prop-er comes back we will see if it works.
Sorry this has been so drawn out but I wanted it in the archives in case
someone in the future is faced with identical problems.
Had to stop as the temp just jumped to 100 and as we say down here, you talk
about, man it's hot.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
I am sure glad to live up nawth where it is a cool 75.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Pieters,
Thanks for all the helpful comments. I used most of them.
This morning before it reached 90 my man was proping after we had primed each
cyl through the top plugs. He pulled it through about 4 times and nothing. On
the next prop I moved the throttle to about 1/3 open. She fired. I had an oil
pressure guage fitted next to the case. Oil pressure began to show after 20 or
so seconds finally up to 30 @ 1200 rpm. I would reduce the throttle below 1000
and it would begin to stop so kept it at 1200 for about 5 minutes but each
time I lowered it below 1000 it tried to die. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
something tells me that I must have a problem in the idle system somewhere. But
where?
I had taken the carb apart several times to clean and check everything according
to the manuals EXCEPT that little brass tube sticking up out of the lower
body. I have another old carb body so I put that little tube in the vise and carefully
turned the body until it loosened. I removed and examined. Studying the
manual this was the idle metering tube. The lower end being the idle metering
jet. It was blocked with no light to be seen through it. With some brass safety
wire I began to clean and sure enough there was a jet hole there.
I removed the carb on the engine, took it apart again and removed the idle metering
tube and guess what I found. Yep, no hole and it took quite awhile to finally
clean the gook out. It's clean now and all reassembled. When my prop-er
comes back we will see if it works.
Sorry this has been so drawn out but I wanted it in the archives in case someone
in the future is faced with identical problems.
Had to stop as the temp just jumped to 100 and as we say down here, you talk
about, man it's hot.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
As I approach the completion of my wings (wooden completion), I will
next work on the center section. I recall some Pieters recommending to
build the center section 36" wide to accommodate a larger fuel tank. I
thought I heard that a 36" section will hold about 14 gallons, which
makes sense (25" x26" x 5" x 0.0043 = 13.975 gallons). At 6.25 lbs per
gallon, that's 87 pounds of fuel. Is 87 pounds of fuel a lot for a
Pietenpol to lift with a couple a people in it? Let's assume a Corvair
engine, extended fuselage, limited avionics, and let's assume 90% of the
flying time carries only one person in the plane (for those who enjoy to
compromise). Any thoughts, or better yet, experience?
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A-65 Oil Pressure |
In a message dated 8/24/2005 6:19:34 AM Central Standard Time,
Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com writes:
Mine often takes the full 30 seconds to get any indication on the oil
pressure gage, as it is a long way from the engine to the rear cockpit
I've purged the air from my oil line before I ever started the engine for the
first time, and it still takes maybe 20 seconds for the gage to read,
especially after it sits for a few weeks. It seems like an eternity staring at
the
gage thinking...c'mon...c'mon...gimmee a reading...
If I run the engine on a daily basis, it has a reading before I can even get
from the spinning prop to the left side of the cockpit. It seems to me, that
the oil drains down past the pump gears, and empties some of the oil from the
screen area, which has to fill up before getting a gage reading. By raising
the tail, you dump the residual oil from the screen area that can't drain out,
and prime the pump with it. If the plane sits level for a period of time, you
loose the oil in the screen area, and and another means to prime the pump is
required.
Chuck G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Dilatush" <dilatush(at)amigo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tape to use on ailerons and elevator |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tape to use on ailerons and elevator
===================================
Oscar,
Look at the tape used to seal the wing root gaps on sailplanes after
assembly. I used it, works well. May be able to find it on the internet,
my friend, a sailplane owner/pilot gave me a roll to use.
Drop your control surface all the way down then apply tape to the gap, will
form only a very small hump when surface is at neutral position.
Hope this helps,
John
==================================
>
>
> Harvey wrote-
>
>>I'd like to know what is the best tape to use in these places for
>>gap cover? I will order the one you guys say is best.
>
> Well, I have not used this myself (yet), but one of the guys over on the
> KRNet suggested "gaffers tape" for use on the wing gap seals on KRs. This
> is tape that is used in movie sets to tape wiring down onto the floor, so
> it doesn't have adhesive down the middle part of the tape... the part that
> would be over the gap between the wing and the control surface. It's
> available in an assortment of colors. Here's one example:
> http://www34.pair.com/harrison/thetapeworks.com/progaff.htm
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
Lou and Hans,
A hearty CONGRATULATIONS to you on your first flights !! Quite a milestone
!!
In a message dated 8/24/2005 8:30:05 AM Central Standard Time,
Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com writes:
I got hooked on the RV-10 at OSH this year and am already cleaning up the
workshop in anticipation of starting on it.
Jack and all,
Have you considered a Wittman Tailwind W10 ? Did you also notice that one of
them won First Place 'Formula FX' race this year at Osh, beating out all
similar horsepower RV's, canards, and other glass planes, with an average speed
of 218 mph ? Yeah, I know it's a two place, but it is a scratch built plane,
well under half the price of an RV, and it sure is FAAAAAST !!
Not that I'm prejudiced or anything, but a Wittman W10 is my current project.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
looking forward to passing up all those RV's when the Tailwind is done !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gas tank size |
Hi John,
NX18235 has a center section built to the
Keri-Ann Price plans.
A 15 gallon tank was built to fit this center
section.
This aircraft has an empty weight of 616 #
and has flown at weights in excess of 1125#
on 85 deg. F. days.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gas tank size
> "Egan, John"
>
> As I approach the completion of my wings
> (wooden completion), I will
> next work on the center section. I recall
> some Pieters recommending to
> build the center section 36" wide to
> accommodate a larger fuel tank. I
> thought I heard that a 36" section will
> hold about 14 gallons, which
> makes sense (25" x26" x 5" x 0.0043 =
> 13.975 gallons). At 6.25 lbs per
> gallon, that's 87 pounds of fuel. Is 87
> pounds of fuel a lot for a
> Pietenpol to lift with a couple a people in
> it? Let's assume a Corvair
> engine, extended fuselage, limited
> avionics, and let's assume 90% of the
> flying time carries only one person in the
> plane (for those who enjoy to
> compromise). Any thoughts, or better yet,
> experience?
>
>
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the
> addressee(s) only and may contain
> privileged, confidential, or proprietary
> information that is exempt from disclosure
> under law. If you have received this
> message in error, please inform us promptly
> by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
> destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
> ==============================================================================
>
>
> Forum -
> Subscriptions page,
> Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kmordecai001(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 08/22/05 |
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Pieters:
I need a lot of help. Can't start engine without pouring raw fuel in the top
plug holes. Have started twice. First time it ran for about 10 seconds. Next
day, same priming procedure, it ran for about 15 seconds. Has anyone
experienced this behavior with your 65? I've overhauled the carb daily, new
steel
needle and seat, gaskets. I took the brass revolving plate, mixture, out. Read
the A-65 manual until the print is fading also the Stromberg NA-S3A1 manual.
The only thing I can't comply with from the manual is the 18 inch head of fuel
above the carb. I only have 8 inches from tank bottom to carb bottom.
Will one of you engine know-hows please come to my rescue?
Mags are very hot from rebuild. Engine has new bearings, guides, rings etc.
Thanks in advance
Corky In La trying to start this d--- thing in 102 temp.
Corky,
I'm new to the list and new to A-65's, only had mine for a couple of weeks now,
but I've learned a little about the Stromberg NA-S3A1 in my brief ownership:
Set the fuel level by the book (and you're right to use the steel needle, a swollen
neoprene tip started my Stromberg lessons).
I set mine up on the bench in a pie tin to contain any leaks, leveled it , and
used a clean gear lube container hung from overhead & tygon tubing to simulate
the actual head of 1/2 tank fuel in the plane. (figured that was "average" head)
Took about 6-8 attempts to get it right, but the color of the plugs is perfect
now.
Get this right because if the level is just slightly high she'll run fuel out of
the atomizer as soon as you turn on the fuel shutoff valve. Normal level is
just under the atomizer ports.
If you have the idle mixture screw about 1.5 turns out from seated and the idle
ports are clear, she should take about 4-6 blades to get fuel into the cylinders
and then start right up. Others will tell you otherwise, but I don't think
you can adjust the idle mixture on this or any other carb/engine without the
engine running. Yes, it's dangerous, but the screw is pointed aft & you're well
away from the prop with a long screwdriver. Just be careful and have the plane
tied/chocked and a safety man with a hand on the mag switch. (Can't imagine
trying to adjust the idle on my old BMW motorcycle by repeated starts/stops/adjustments...what
a pain)
Other Stuff to check:
Has the idle speed screw been moved since the engine last ran? Having the throttle
plate just slightly open too far will result in no fuel being drawn from
the idle mixture port(s). Check for intake leaks at the intake elbow to head
flanges, will result in the same thing.
Ignition timing: The A&P who built my engine was a stickler on this. Both impulse
mags click simultaneously, timing is dead on. (New Slicks & harnesses)
On the oil pressure issue: My engine will fail to develop oil pressure after an
oil change or sitting for several weeks unless I remove the oil pressure sending
line and pump about 1/2 a squirt can of oil into it. Just keep a big pump
oil can around with about 2 feet of 1/4 tygon tubing clamped on it's spout. There
are a couple of old Cub pilots around here who turned me onto this trick.
It takes several ounces to fill the pump cavity. Be generous.
Dave Mordecai in Panacea, Fl (heat index of 105 today, too &#*$
# hot to fly)
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Pieters:
I need a lot of help. Can't start engine without pouring raw fuel in the top
plug holes. Have started twice. First time it ran for about 10 seconds. Next
day, same priming procedure, it ran for about 15 seconds. Has anyone
experienced this behavior with your 65? I've overhauled the carb daily, new
steel
needle and seat, gaskets. I took the brass revolving plate, mixture, out. Read
the A-65 manual until the print is fading also the Stromberg NA-S3A1 manual.
The only thing I can't comply with from the manual is the 18 inch head of fuel
above the carb. I only have 8 inches from tank bot
tom to carb bottom.
Will one of you engine know-hows please come to my rescue?
Mags are very hot from rebuild. Engine has new bearings, guides, rings etc.
Thanks in advance
Corky In La trying to start this d--- thing in 102 temp.
Corky,
I'm new to the list and new to A-65's, only had mine for a couple of weeks now,
but I've learned a little about the Stromberg NA-S3A1 in my brief ownership:
Set the fuel level by the book (and you're right to use the steel needle, a swollen
neoprene tip started my Stromberg lessons).
I set mine up on the bench in a pie tin to contain any leaks, leveled it ,and used
a clean gear lube container hung from overhead tygon tubing to simulate the
actual head of 1/2 tank fuel in the plane. (figured that was "average" head)
Took about6-8 attempts to get it right, but the color of the plugs is perfect
now.
Get this right because if the level is just slightly high she'll run fuel out of
the atomizer as soon as you turn on the fuel shutoff valve. Normal level is
just under the atomizer ports.
If you have the idle mixture screw about 1.5 turns out from seated and the idle
ports are clear, she should take about 4-6 blades to get fuel into the cylinders
and then start right up. Otherswill tell you otherwise, but I don't think
you can adjust the idle mixture on this or any other carb/engine without the engine
running. Yes, it's dangerous, but the screw is pointed aft you're well
away from the prop with a long screwdriver. Just be careful and have the plane
tied/chocked and a safety man witha hand on the mag switch.(Can't imagine trying
to adjust the idle on my old BMW motorcycle by repeated starts/stops/adjustments...what
a pain)
Other Stuff to check:
Has the idle speed screw been moved since the engine last ran? Having the throttle
plate just slightly open too far will result in no fuel being drawn from the
idle mixture port(s).Check for intake leaks at the intake elbow to head flanges,
will result in the same thing.
Ignition timing: The AP who built my engine was a stickler on this. Both impulse
mags click simultaneously, timing is dead on. (New Slicks harnesses)
On the oil pressure issue: My engine will fail to develop oil pressure after an
oil change or sitting for several weeks unless I remove the oil pressure sending
line and pump about 1/2 a squirt canof oil into it.Just keep a big pump oil
can around with about 2 feet of 1/4 tygon tubing clamped on it's spout. There
are a couple of oldCub pilots aroundhere who turnedme onto this trick.It takes
several ounces to fill the pump cavity. Be generous.
Dave Mordecai in Panacea, Fl (heat index of 105 today, too #*$
# hot to fly)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | left coast piets |
----- Original Message -----
From: Clif Dawson
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: left coast piets
They're all on Vancouver Island. :-)
The oldest continuously registered aircraft in Canada, CF-AOG,
is flying off a private strip, one is flying out of Naniamo and the
other is completed and in flight testing, again, at Naniamo.
I almost forgot! It appears Dave Rowe has been posted to
the far Atlantic Coast somewhere. I don't know the status of
both his planes but some time ago they were under tarps
in the corner of a hanger at Pat Bay ( Victoria International ).
The attached photo is the one currently testing, built by Dean Sevold.
Powered by a Ford "B"
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: DONALD COOLEY
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: gap seals
Hello Group,
I was wondering.....how about using piano hinges for elevators? The only
real drawback I can see is that it wouldn't look "authentic". Maybe function
dictates form? I plan using piano hinges for the ailerons, so this seems not
too out of line. Comments?
BTW, I just returned from the NWAAC Fly-in at McMinnville, Oregon. There
was not a single Piet at this fairly prestigious event. Mine is still probably
several years from attending. Will it be the first? Where are all the Left
Coast Piets? The world awaits an answer!
Keep the sawdust flyin'! Don Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Don't wory ,Texan's get their fair share of snow and rotten weather from
what I've seen.It just doesn't last as long.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christian Bobka
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-65
I am sure glad to live up nawth where it is a cool 75.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65
Pieters,
Thanks for all the helpful comments. I used most of them.
This morning before it reached 90 my man was proping after we
had primed each cyl through the top plugs. He pulled it through about 4
times and nothing. On the next prop I moved the throttle to about 1/3
open. She fired. I had an oil pressure guage fitted next to the case.
Oil pressure began to show after 20 or so seconds finally up to 30 @
1200 rpm. I would reduce the throttle below 1000 and it would begin to
stop so kept it at 1200 for about 5 minutes but each time I lowered it
below 1000 it tried to die. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
something tells me that I must have a problem in the idle system
somewhere. But where?
I had taken the carb apart several times to clean and check
everything according to the manuals EXCEPT that little brass tube
sticking up out of the lower body. I have another old carb body so I put
that little tube in the vise and carefully turned the body until it
loosened. I removed and examined. Studying the manual this was the idle
metering tube. The lower end being the idle metering jet. It was blocked
with no light to be seen through it. With some brass safety wire I began
to clean and sure enough there was a jet hole there.
I removed the carb on the engine, took it apart again and
removed the idle metering tube and guess what I found. Yep, no hole and
it took quite awhile to finally clean the gook out. It's clean now and
all reassembled. When my prop-er comes back we will see if it works.
Sorry this has been so drawn out but I wanted it in the archives
in case someone in the future is faced with identical problems.
Had to stop as the temp just jumped to 100 and as we say down
here, you talk about, man it's hot.
Corky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
You always have the option to keep the tank less than full. With a
smaller tank you don't have the option to carry more fuel. With a
Pietenpol's limited ability to battle headwinds, I would think anything
less than 3 hours of fuel capacity is pretty limiting. I find that a
leg longer than 2 hours is pretty uncomfortable, but it is nice to be
able to handle a 3 hour leg if necessary.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
As I approach the completion of my wings (wooden completion), I will
next work on the center section. I recall some Pieters recommending to
build the center section 36" wide to accommodate a larger fuel tank. I
thought I heard that a 36" section will hold about 14 gallons, which
makes sense (25" x26" x 5" x 0.0043 = 13.975 gallons). At 6.25 lbs per
gallon, that's 87 pounds of fuel. Is 87 pounds of fuel a lot for a
Pietenpol to lift with a couple a people in it? Let's assume a Corvair
engine, extended fuselage, limited avionics, and let's assume 90% of the
flying time carries only one person in the plane (for those who enjoy to
compromise). Any thoughts, or better yet, experience?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
I would consider a Tailwind if I were building a 2 place travelling
airplane. I admire Wittman's designs from a functionality standpoint.
I don't think his designs are particularly pretty, but they certainly
are efficient. But I want a 4 place plane that is fast with good short
field characteristics. I am considering an RV-10, a Murphy Moose, and a
Bearhawk. So far, the RV-10 looks like it has the most bang for the
buck.
Ran across a deal on an RV-4 yesterday, but I don't think I can swing
the cash for the deal without selling the Pietenpol which I refuse to
even consider.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
=09
=09
Jack and all,
Have you considered a Wittman Tailwind W10 ? Did you also notice that
one of them won First Place 'Formula FX' race this year at Osh, beating
out all similar horsepower RV's, canards, and other glass planes, with
an average speed of 218 mph ? Yeah, I know it's a two place, but it is
a scratch built plane, well under half the price of an RV, and it sure
is FAAAAAST !!
Not that I'm prejudiced or anything, but a Wittman W10 is my current
project.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
looking forward to passing up all those RV's when the Tailwind is done
!!
________________________________________________________________________________
I won't be using the front seat at any time for passengers so I can
always drop a tank of gas in that area provided I tie her down well.I
guess since I'm not carrying passengers then theoretically I could take
as much gas as a passenger would weigh.Always an option.
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Gas tank size
You always have the option to keep the tank less than full. With a
smaller tank you don't have the option to carry more fuel. With a
Pietenpol's limited ability to battle headwinds, I would think anything
less than 3 hours of fuel capacity is pretty limiting. I find that a
leg longer than 2 hours is pretty uncomfortable, but it is nice to be
able to handle a 3 hour leg if necessary.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
As I approach the completion of my wings (wooden completion), I will
next work on the center section. I recall some Pieters recommending to
build the center section 36" wide to accommodate a larger fuel tank. I
thought I heard that a 36" section will hold about 14 gallons, which
makes sense (25" x26" x 5" x 0.0043 = 13.975 gallons). At 6.25 lbs per
gallon, that's 87 pounds of fuel. Is 87 pounds of fuel a lot for a
Pietenpol to lift with a couple a people in it? Let's assume a Corvair
engine, extended fuselage, limited avionics, and let's assume 90% of the
flying time carries only one person in the plane (for those who enjoy to
compromise). Any thoughts, or better yet, experience?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gas tank size |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/25/2005 08:35:47 AM
John,
I use standard center section, 3 piece wing.
And made a aluminum fuel tank that holds 14 gallon plus I have a 2 gallon
Header tank in the front.
The Corvair, according to WW conversion manual, should burn 3.5 GPH.
That gives a long range for a Pietenpol.
I have been test flying my Piet every evening since Saturday and 45 minutes
is a long time on a wooden bench.
You will need a good seat cushion to get use out of a larger fuel tank.
Hans
"Egan, John"
Sent by: To
owner-pietenpol-l pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
ist-server@matron cc
ics.com
Subject
Pietenpol-List: Gas tank size
08/24/2005 04:05
PM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
As I approach the completion of my wings (wooden completion), I will
next work on the center section. I recall some Pieters recommending to
build the center section 36" wide to accommodate a larger fuel tank. I
thought I heard that a 36" section will hold about 14 gallons, which
makes sense (25" x26" x 5" x 0.0043 = 13.975 gallons). At 6.25 lbs per
gallon, that's 87 pounds of fuel. Is 87 pounds of fuel a lot for a
Pietenpol to lift with a couple a people in it? Let's assume a Corvair
engine, extended fuselage, limited avionics, and let's assume 90% of the
flying time carries only one person in the plane (for those who enjoy to
compromise). Any thoughts, or better yet, experience?
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
I agree with Jack P. that you can always off load fuel if you want to take
a passenger on a warmer day or get out of a shorter strip, but should you
land on a x-country like I did coming back from Brodhead (remember Bryan,
Ohio Jack ?)
on a Sunday and find there is nobody around to help you with fuel---you can
always soldier
on to the next airport. I do like the automated pumps at my home airport.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
Congratulations Hans, finishing in only a year and a half (including
building your Corvair) is incredible. I am also building a long fuselage
Corvair Piet, (Matco wheels and brakes also) one question, did you extend
the front of your fuselage or engine mounts to get the CG to the point where
you didn't have to move your wing back? (vertical cabanes?)
Rick H.
>
>
> Thank you All,
>
> I will have to repay the favor by sharing my experience in the future.
>
> I will start with this;
> My Pietenpol is the improved long fuselage Air Camper.
> Empty weight 680 Lbs
> Split Landing gear with 6 x 6.00 wheels, Matco wheels and brakes
> The main deviations from plans are:
> 1) Wheels are 3" forward of plans. (changed the landing gear "V" slightly)
> 2) Bungies replaced with coil springs.
> 3) Engine mount extended by =BD" to give Corvair more clearance to Firewall.
>
> Engine O-164 Corvair, William Wynne conversion with front starter
> Propeller: Tennessee prop. 64 x 34
> Carburetor: Zenith 1821
>
> I started this Pietenpol project in March of 2004 and build a "little"
> every day.
> I took me around 1780 Hours to complete it, (yes, that's right in a year
> and a half and holding a day job)
>
> Now it's off to flying again, Yee-Haw!!
>
> Hans van der Voort
> Proud Owner/Builder/flyer of Pietenpol NX 15 KV "Miss Banshee"
> Waller, 3XS7 Houston Sectional
>
>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/25/2005 09:47:44 AM
Thanks Rick,
I have my Hangar behind my house (Airpark) which makes it very easy to work
on the plane and keep a good pace.
I did not extend the fuselage other than the 1/2 inch on the motor mount.
The reason for this was that the standard Corvair oil filter would almost
hit the Firewall.
And with a layer of Fiberfrax and stainless sheet would be impossible to
mount.
The other option would have been a remote oil filter but this would
increase component count and weight.
Or yet another option would have been to make a recess in the firewall but
I was to far along to do that.
If I build a Air Camper again I would build the Firewall 2" back and extend
the Motor mount the same.
My Cabanes are not vertical, they lean about 1 1/2" back.
Please note, that with the above setup (CG at 18" from Leading Edge) and
with Landing gear V as per drawing,
I only had 1 Lbs on my Tail wheel during W&B, top longeron level.
I decided to move wheels forward by 3 " tail wheel pressure is now 15 Lbs.
I did some wheel landings last night and it seems very stable.
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
I don't remember who to credit for this. At Broadhead, as I was complaining about
my sore butt from the 4.7 hr trip down, somone commented that he used his
sleeping bag pad as a cushion. I tried this on the way home.
I have a self inflating pad and folded it over three times and left the valve up
at the seat top. I am able to let air out to get the right height. This has
made an extremely comfortable seat. These are available at Gander Mtn stores
for about $80. Also they have a cover available to hold this pad into the seat
shape for $39.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/25/2005 12:18:43 PM
Bill,
Started a web site yesterday
www.hometown.aol.com/hvandervoo/indexfront.html
Have a look !
Hans
"Bill Church"
To
Sent by:
owner-pietenpol-l cc
ist-server@matron
ics.com Subject
Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flights
08/25/2005 10:23
AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
Lou and Hans,
How about some pictures of your finished planes?
Do Not Archive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HVandervoo(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Hans new web site |
Try this link: _http://hometown.aol.com/hvandervoo/indexfront.html_
(http://hometown.aol.com/hvandervoo/indexfront.html)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | fixed landing gear |
I did an inspection of my plane tonight and found that my fixed gear axle is bent.
There is about a 1" deflection in the axle,with the stbd wheel showing the
bend.
I had a bit of a discussion at Brodhead, with Jack Phillips on axle sizing and
Jack, you are right, the 1 1/4" x .125 wall is not heavy enough for the fixed
gear. I have a spare axle of the same size and will install that but will also
sleeve the inside with a 1" oak dowel. I will then order a new 1 1/2" and
install in down time this winter. Also, one of my cross brace cables is showing
the stress threads. I just replaced the cables before Brodhead. I will up
size these cables to 5/32".
I belive the axle bent last Saturday when I made a full stall landing in a 15-18
kt cross wind. I should have done a wheel landing, I guess. It wasn't a horrible
touchdown but there were some pretty good side loads in settling in. The
Harley wheels held up very well though.
This was one of those days when the wind was varied and gusting thru 50 degrees.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flights |
Very nice Hans.
I've posted your website to the Corvair list. I think
they will all be quite appreciative of your efforts.
> www.hometown.aol.com/hvandervoo/indexfront.html
>
> Have a look !
>
> Hans
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Gas tank size Gas transfer. |
Garden sprayer is one name. They come in various sizes
and are used for fertilizer, bug sprays and other things.
If you're flying behind a Corvair you'll have a battery anyway.
The electric pump won't take much to run.
Let's see, the average official passenger wt here in Canada is now
187 imperial pounds, 31 gallons!. That's going to be one calloused butt!
And a lot of bug spray out the pilot tube! :-)
Clif
Yes, but what is the name (in english) of that plastic poisoner bottle? Not
important just that I think that has an specific name... Just curious...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
> What has worked great for us, is to make the extra tank airtight and pressurize
with a cheap 2 quarts (ups! my english) bottle to aply poison on the gardens
:-) Just give about 5 pumps and the gasoline will transfer. No electricity
needed. Not much preassure either.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.>
>
> HAHAHA!I can well imagine it would cause a commotion.I've seen
> ultralight pilots do the same thing.What some guys do is hook up a small
> pump to thar spare tank and with the flick of a switch they pump gas
> from there to the main tank.It does require carrying a battery sourse
> though in order to run the small pump.The whole thing isn't exactly the
> safest way to fly but it works.
> > guess since I'm not carrying passengers then theoretically I could take
> as much gas as a passenger would
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Gas tank size Gas transfer. |
I don't think you need a specific poison pump bottle. Any air
pump, such as used to inflate air mattresses and even a
bicycle pump would work. You're pressurizing the sealed
fuel tank and forcing the fuel out into the main tank.
I like both this and the electric pump options. With the electric
pump you could probably strap in a couple of 5 gal jerry cans
with tubing securely fitted into them. This would give you two
carryable, handled containers to go to a gas station with as well.
Also here's a gap seal option from another RAA member;
"The SeaRey guys use the 3M tape that protects the bottom rocker panels of cars
from stone chips.
Canadian Light Amphibians ,
seareycanada.com
I've seen it used as prop leading edge tape too."
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Gas tank size Gas transfer.
Yes, but what is the name (in english) of that plastic poisoner bottle? Not
important just that I think that has an specific name... Just curious...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
sbobka(at)charter.net wrote:
good idea, Gary.
Chris
>
> From: Gary Gower
> Date: 2005/08/25 Thu AM 11:06:23 EDT
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Gas tank size Gas transfer.
>
> Here we dont have enough airstrips here and is dificult to get gasoline on
a XCountry flight (on ultralights), legs of more than 4 hours are common among
us (at 60-70 mph) so we always fly with our extra gas tank in the passenger
seat.
>
> What has worked great for us, is to make the extra tank airtight and pressurize
with a cheap 2 quarts (ups! my english) bottle to aply poison on the gardens
:-) Just give about 5 pumps and the gasoline will transfer. No electricity
needed. Not much preassure either.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gas tank size Gas transfer. |
Thanks Cliff, just learning, We only uswd to carry about 2 hrs estimated of
extra fuel, for safety. Plus the normal 3 -4 hrs in the main tank. Two stroke
engines use lots of gas.
Right now I fly with a 912S (Rotax), so no extra tank needed. No, not a Piet,
but a CH 701 by Zenith, that I co-own with my brother..
Saludos
Gary Gower
Clif Dawson wrote:
Garden sprayer is one name. They come in various sizes
and are used for fertilizer, bug sprays and other things.
If you're flying behind a Corvair you'll have a battery anyway.
The electric pump won't take much to run.
Let's see, the average official passenger wt here in Canada is now
187 imperial pounds, 31 gallons!. That's going to be one calloused butt!
And a lot of bug spray out the pilot tube! :-)
Clif
Yes, but what is the name (in english) of that plastic poisoner bottle? Not important
just that I think that has an specific name... Just curious...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
> What has worked great for us, is to make the extra tank airtight and pressurize
with a cheap 2 quarts (ups! my english) bottle to aply poison on the gardens
:-) Just give about 5 pumps and the gasoline will transfer. No electricity needed.
Not much preassure either.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.>
>
> HAHAHA!I can well imagine it would cause a commotion.I've seen
> ultralight pilots do the same thing.What some guys do is hook up a small
> pump to thar spare tank and with the flick of a switch they pump gas
> from there to the main tank.It does require carrying a battery sourse
> though in order to run the small pump.The whole thing isn't exactly the
> safest way to fly but it works.
> > guess since I'm not carrying passengers then theoretically I could take
> as much gas as a passenger would
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fixed landing gear |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Sorry to hear that, Dick. It does confirm the stress analysis I did
(unfortunately AFTER my own axle broke). The loading of this axle is
somewhat peculiar in that the stress due to bending moments is constant
in the area between the bungees. In other words, just sleeving the area
around the bungees won't improve things, it will just move the failure
point to the place where the sleeve stops.
What I found when doing some research after my accident was that the
gear should be sized to fail at something between 3 and 5 G's. If you
make it too strong and have a very hard landing, the gear will survive
but will pass the stress on to some less robust part of the airframe,
causing even more expensive damage. For a steel axle to be good to 3
G's (assuming a gross weight of 1100 lbs) with no heat treating (in
other words, normalized 4130 steel), a 1-1/2" axle needs to be .218"
thick. To be good for 4.5 G's (3 G's plus a 150% safety factor), an
un-heat treated axle would need to be solid steel, 1-1/2" diameter and
still would fall somewhat short. This is why I chose to heat treat my
new axle to 130,000 psi tensile strength (105,000 psi yield strength),
allowing me to use the considerably lighter wall thickness of .188" and
still be good to almost 5 G's.
I've attached an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the axle stress. The
variables you can play around with in the spreadsheet are the material
yield strength (60,000 psi for normalized 4130), the distance between
the center of your tire and the center of the bungee attach point, which
determines the bending moment, and the axle diameter and wall thickness.
You can also plug in your actual gross weight.
Once again, this shows the Bernard knew what he was doing when he
designed the "Improved" Air Camper with the split axle gear. The
straight axle can be made very strong (the undercarriage is extremely
rugged), but the axle itself is pretty heavy. The split axle gear can
be equally strong with much less weight.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Navratil
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
I did an inspection of my plane tonight and found that my fixed gear
axle is bent. There is about a 1" deflection in the axle,with the stbd
wheel showing the bend.
I had a bit of a discussion at Brodhead, with Jack Phillips on axle
sizing and Jack, you are right, the 1 1/4" x .125 wall is not heavy
enough for the fixed gear. I have a spare axle of the same size and
will install that but will also sleeve the inside with a 1" oak dowel.
I will then order a new 1 1/2" and install in down time this winter.
Also, one of my cross brace cables is showing the stress threads. I
just replaced the cables before Brodhead. I will up size these cables
to 5/32".
I belive the axle bent last Saturday when I made a full stall landing in
a 15-18 kt cross wind. I should have done a wheel landing, I guess. It
wasn't a horrible touchdown but there were some pretty good side loads
in settling in. The Harley wheels held up very well though.
This was one of those days when the wind was varied and gusting thru 50
degrees.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aircraft |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/26/2005 09:07:57 AM
Thanks Robert,
No, I do not have any patterns or plans of the cowling yet.
I just build it, I started off with some foam and shaped a nose bowl.
This foam nose bowl became the male plug/mold for the fiberglass/ epoxy
bowl
I did not make a traditional female mold.
This nose bowl I then mounted on the Prop hub and rest is made from
Aluminum .02- 2024
Same for the Eye brows.
I did not know how big to make them to get good cooling.
So expected to have to remake them, either smaller or bigger.
They seem however spot-on Temperature on full power climb is about 420 F
At 75 Mph cruise it is around 375. And that is in Texas heat of 100 F.
They might be to big for winter.
The Picture gives the cowling more credit than its due, close up there are
a few imperfections.
But it is good enough for flight.
I do intend to redo some of the Cowling, I want to make a aluminum nose
bowl an redo some of the top parts.
I might make some pattern drawings this winter.
Hans
"Robert B.
Holton"
cc
08/25/2005 04:46
PM Subject
Pietenpol Aircraft
Hans,
Your Airplane is beatiful to say the least! I am in the beginning stages
of building a GN-1 Aircamper, and I too want to use a William Wynne
Corvair Conversion. One of the only reasons I have considered not using
the Corvair is because all the Pietenpols I have seen before with this
engine did not have cowlings that I thought were very attractive. Then
you posted the picture of your plane. Once again what a piece of art!
I immediatley focused on the way you cowled your aircraft. It appears
that you have put eye brows on the plane. I love that look, but have only
seen them on Pietenpols with Continentals or Lycomings. Did you design you
own cowl and eye brows to fit the Covrvair Motor? If so do you have
patterns left over that you may be willing to sell to other builders. Let
me know I would be interested.
Robert B. Holton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fixed landing gear |
Thanks for all of that, Jack. I was planning on going to a 1.5 x .188 axle. Heat
treating sounds like a very good idea. I have done that with small parts
but how do you dp that on something this large? Also , did you up size your cross
brace cables?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
Sorry to hear that, Dick. It does confirm the stress analysis I did (unfortunately
AFTER my own axle broke). The loading of this axle is somewhat peculiar
in that the stress due to bending moments is constant in the area between the
bungees. In other words, just sleeving the area around the bungees won't improve
things, it will just move the failure point to the place where the sleeve
stops.
What I found when doing some research after my accident was that the gear should
be sized to fail at something between 3 and 5 G's. If you make it too strong
and have a very hard landing, the gear will survive but will pass the stress
on to some less robust part of the airframe, causing even more expensive damage.
For a steel axle to be good to 3 G's (assuming a gross weight of 1100 lbs)
with no heat treating (in other words, normalized 4130 steel), a 1-1/2" axle
needs to be .218" thick. To be good for 4.5 G's (3 G's plus a 150% safety
factor), an un-heat treated axle would need to be solid steel, 1-1/2" diameter
and still would fall somewhat short. This is why I chose to heat treat my new
axle to 130,000 psi tensile strength (105,000 psi yield strength), allowing
me to use the considerably lighter wall thickness of .188" and still be good to
almost 5 G's.
I've attached an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the axle stress. The variables
you can play around with in the spreadsheet are the material yield strength
(60,000 psi for normalized 4130), the distance between the center of your
tire and the center of the bungee attach point, which determines the bending moment,
and the axle diameter and wall thickness. You can also plug in your actual
gross weight.
Once again, this shows the Bernard knew what he was doing when he designed the
"Improved" Air Camper with the split axle gear. The straight axle can be made
very strong (the undercarriage is extremely rugged), but the axle itself is
pretty heavy. The split axle gear can be equally strong with much less weight.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 10:43 PM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
I did an inspection of my plane tonight and found that my fixed gear axle is
bent. There is about a 1" deflection in the axle,with the stbd wheel showing
the bend.
I had a bit of a discussion at Brodhead, with Jack Phillips on axle sizing and
Jack, you are right, the 1 1/4" x .125 wall is not heavy enough for the fixed
gear. I have a spare axle of the same size and will install that but will
also sleeve the inside with a 1" oak dowel. I will then order a new 1 1/2" and
install in down time this winter. Also, one of my cross brace cables is showing
the stress threads. I just replaced the cables before Brodhead. I will
up size these cables to 5/32".
I belive the axle bent last Saturday when I made a full stall landing in a 15-18
kt cross wind. I should have done a wheel landing, I guess. It wasn't a horrible
touchdown but there were some pretty good side loads in settling in.
The Harley wheels held up very well though.
This was one of those days when the wind was varied and gusting thru 50 degrees.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fixed landing gear |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
I didn't upsize the cables, but I used the very stiff 1x19 cable which
is stronger than the 7x19. The only place I found that could heat treat
an axle that long without warping is Rex Heat Treatment in Lansdale, PA.
They do a lot of aerospace parts and have a vertical oven so the part
doesn't lay down and warp. It was not cheap - $475 to do my axle, and
it took about 6 weeks.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Navratil
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
Thanks for all of that, Jack. I was planning on going to a 1.5 x .188
axle. Heat treating sounds like a very good idea. I have done that
with small parts but how do you dp that on something this large? Also ,
did you up size your cross brace cables?
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | fixed landing gear |
Dick-- my axle is about .20" thick and has survived some pretty rough
landings and a groud loop when my tailwheel shoe
failed.
Mike C.
PS-- the straight axle and wire wheels just look so go to me..I couldn't
even consider the split axle version with donut tires.
________________________________________________________________________________
Members of the list serve:
I am seeking information on locating a supplier of aluminum rims and hubs. Also
can you recommemd rims size and tires width. Along with that what about hub size
and dimensions.
Just seeking imput for the best possible selection.
Sincerely,
Kenneth M. Heide
Fargo, ND
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
What kind of wheels? Spoked "Motorcycle" type, or more traditional
aircraft type wheels?
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth
Heide
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rims and Tires
Members of the list serve:
I am seeking information on locating a supplier of aluminum rims and
hubs. Also can you recommemd rims size and tires width. Along with that
what about hub size and dimensions.
Just seeking imput for the best possible selection.
Sincerely,
Kenneth M. Heide
Fargo, ND
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rims and Tires |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/26/2005 03:21:01 PM
Ken,
What landing gear?
Split landingear is what I have, and I used Matco W62 wheels & brakes, 6 x
6.00 tires.
Or straight axle gear with spoked motor cycle wheels, aerodrome aeroplanes
make a nice set.
Hans
Kenneth Heide
To
Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
owner-pietenpol-l cc
ist-server@matron
ics.com Subject
Pietenpol-List: Rims and Tires
08/26/2005 02:07
PM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
Members of the list serve:
I am seeking information on locating a supplier of aluminum rims and hubs.
Also can you recommemd rimssize and tires width. Along with that what
about hub size and dimensions.
Just seeking imput for the best possible selection.
Sincerely,
Kenneth M. Heide
Fargo, ND
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAsAhQXE4C0AvTEpp46yD6DX9tL2YmsKQIULhtztyOxcDzu51uYD+2aBBDBjlc=
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Hi Ken: I am using Hager hubs and brakes. My wheels are al. atv whels 8"
by 6 wide. nice and light, but not really cheap. Leon S. Ks.
________________________________________________________________________________
Members of the list:
I am interested in aluminum spoked rims and the width of the motorcycle tire. This
also include suppliers of such, along with size of wheels, etc.....Sorry for
the confusion!
Ken Heide
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fixed landing gear |
OUCH
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
I didn't upsize the cables, but I used the very stiff 1x19 cable which is stronger
than the 7x19. The only place I found that could heat treat an axle that
long without warping is Rex Heat Treatment in Lansdale, PA. They do a lot of
aerospace parts and have a vertical oven so the part doesn't lay down and warp.
It was not cheap - $475 to do my axle, and it took about 6 weeks.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:44 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
Thanks for all of that, Jack. I was planning on going to a 1.5 x .188 axle.
Heat treating sounds like a very good idea. I have done that with small parts
but how do you dp that on something this large? Also , did you up size your
cross brace cables?
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fixed landing gear |
Ditto here on the wheels.
Dont get me wrong here guys on this bent axle. This was not a near disaster
or anything. I just noticed more deflection than previous and one of the
cables had stressed.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
>
>
> Dick-- my axle is about .20" thick and has survived some pretty rough
> landings and a groud loop when my tailwheel shoe
> failed.
>
> Mike C.
>
> PS-- the straight axle and wire wheels just look so go to me..I couldn't
> even consider the split axle version with donut tires.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rims and Tires |
Ken,
Dale and I used 3.50 X 19 Chen Shin motorcycle tires mounted on 40 spoke DID rims
which were located at a local motorcycle salvage yard.
Spokes are custom from Buchanan Spoke and Rim in California.
Hubs are 6" wide and were made to Howard Henderson's plans.
Small picture attached.
Greg Cardinal
Minneapolis
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Heide
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rims and Tires
Members of the list:
I am interested in aluminum spoked rims and the width of the motorcycle tire.
This also include suppliers of such, along with size of wheels, etc.....Sorry
for the confusion!
Ken Heide
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fixed landing gear |
I didn't do this on the already semi-completed Piete I bought and rebuilt,
but for those of you out there in Pieteland that have yet to install a gear,
you may want to consider picking up a fiberglass bow gear that is used on
the Varieze and Longeze. It's made from strands of S-glass and epoxy wound
over a mandrel, shaped like a hunting bow. Would support a Piet even with
hard bounce. Very simple and tough. Not very traditional looking but you
could always paint it with faux-wood paint to get the desired affect.
Probably look on ebay and find one for less than a couple 100 bucks.
They're made by Featherlite in Ukiah CA., think they still sell new for
about $600. I've bounced my Cozy sized gear with a 2100 lb gross quite a
few times without evidence of any damage. The gear could be attached to the
existing tabs on the Piete's lower longerons with 7/16" bolts run thru the
entire length of the front and back tabs and the gear attached with a 7/16"
further ideas, chk out someone in your area that has a Rutanesque type
canard-pusher's gear installation.
Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
Cozy IV N64CY
Osprey II N64SY
Pietenpol N-1033B
" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
>
> Ditto here on the wheels.
> Dont get me wrong here guys on this bent axle. This was not a near
disaster
> or anything. I just noticed more deflection than previous and one of the
> cables had stressed.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 1:22 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
>
>
> >
> >
> > Dick-- my axle is about .20" thick and has survived some pretty rough
> > landings and a groud loop when my tailwheel shoe
> > failed.
> >
> > Mike C.
> >
> > PS-- the straight axle and wire wheels just look so go to me..I couldn't
> > even consider the split axle version with donut tires.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNSTMR(at)aol.com |
Heres the address to a neat free-flight Piet model.
> http://smallflyingarts.com/Current_Content/Spotlight/aircamper.htm
>
>
Subject: FW: pete
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:35:35 -0500
From: "Terry Bowden" <tbowden(at)ramaircraft.com>
Terry L. Bowden
Chief Engineer / D.E.R. Powerplant & Engines
RAM Aircraft, Ltd. Partnership
Office: (254) 752-8381 ext. 333 / Fax: (254) 752-3307
email: tbowden(at)ramaircraft.com
website: www.ramaircraft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Toliver
Subject: pete
Check this out:
http://smallflyingarts.com/Current_Content/Spotlight/aircamper.htm
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
Terry L. Bowden
ChiefEngineer
/
D.E.R. Powerplant Engines
RAM Aircraft, Ltd. Partnership
Office:
(254) 752-8381
ext. 333 / Fax: (254) 752-3307
email:=20tbowden(at)ramaircraft.com
website: www.ramaircraft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Toliver
Subject: pete
Check this out:
http://smallflyingarts.com/Current_Content/Spotlight/aircamper.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philip Miller" <philip_miller_3(at)earthlink.net> |
Is it possible to use split landing gear with spoked wheels? If so, are there
any special considerations about that (wheel dimensions limits, side loads, etc.)
I like the look of the spoked wheels, but the impact absorbtion, strength
and utility of the split axle sure looks more attractive. I'd miss those beautiful
ash struts though.
Phil Miller
PietenVair
Altadena,CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Conkling" <hpvs(at)southwind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rims and Tires |
Phil,
Look up the 1929-30 Travelair 2000 landing gear for how it could be done --
the Travelair used 28 x 4 wheels with the shock cords attached to the center
"vee" (like a J-3 Cub). It will take some drafting time to figure axle
placement and landing gear angles for the right deck angle.
Concerning the straight axle Piets -- if I remember correctly, aren't Part
23 landing gear (only) stressed for about 3g's ??
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Miller
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Rims and Tires
Is it possible to use split landing gear with spoked wheels? If so, are
there any special considerations about that (wheel dimensions limits, side
loads, etc.) I like the look of the spoked wheels, but the impact
absorbtion, strength and utility of the split axle sure looks more
attractive. I'd miss those beautiful ash struts though.
Phil Miller
PietenVair
Altadena,CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Maybe) First Flight? |
N444MH, Howard Henderson's old plane, has it's wing
moved 3" aft of it's plans built location, to
accomodate my 222# vs Howards and Joe Santana's 175#.
Yesterday, I finished the work, safetied the
turnbuckles, and had two friend help. I did some more
high speed taxi's and raised the tail, when she
promptly lifted off, and I put her back down.
I did that on two more runs. It was the middle of the
hot afternoon, with wind rustling the tree tops above
me. I am at a one way in, opposite way out airstrip.
The "A" was purring. (I loved the water spashing on my
face from the overflow.)
While I was being encouraged to go fly that darn
thing, I decided to wait until the cool of a quiet
morning, zero wind preferably. It was never my
intention to fly her yesterday.
I went flying in my Cessna 195 today (newly acquired 2
months and 30 hours ago) and wondered to myself if I
am just chicken. Got to shake it off. The Cub I flew
back in the Spring was a piece of cake.
It's just a plane. Right? (Somebody say "yes".) Any
clever advice, snide remarks, (yes, get that nose
down), encouragement, etc will be appreciated.
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | fixed landing gear |
Just a follow up on my landing gear problem. I spent the day at the hangar, removing
the wheels and axle. I was shocked to find that my port side bungee had
almost completely chaffed thru, not from this incident but from rubbing on a
bolt head on the gear leg. For anyone who hasn't checked you bungees in a while,
it may be worth unwrapping and checking. I will make a chafe guard out of
2" SCH 40 pvc pipe to cover the bolts.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harvey Rule <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: (Maybe) First Flight? |
I would say follow your instincts.If the winds are high and you don't feel
confortable then do as you said ,wait for a nice calm morning or evening,
as long as it's calm.It's one less thing to have to worry about.Test
flying your
own aircraft is quite a big step even if you are a seasoned pilot on
other aircraft.
Take your time and enjoy unless of caorse you have to be somewhere in a
hurry!
>
>
>N444MH, Howard Henderson's old plane, has it's wing
>moved 3" aft of it's plans built location, to
>accomodate my 222# vs Howards and Joe Santana's 175#.
>
>Yesterday, I finished the work, safetied the
>turnbuckles, and had two friend help. I did some more
>high speed taxi's and raised the tail, when she
>promptly lifted off, and I put her back down.
>
>I did that on two more runs. It was the middle of the
>hot afternoon, with wind rustling the tree tops above
>me. I am at a one way in, opposite way out airstrip.
>The "A" was purring. (I loved the water spashing on my
>face from the overflow.)
>
>While I was being encouraged to go fly that darn
>thing, I decided to wait until the cool of a quiet
>morning, zero wind preferably. It was never my
>intention to fly her yesterday.
>
>I went flying in my Cessna 195 today (newly acquired 2
>months and 30 hours ago) and wondered to myself if I
>am just chicken. Got to shake it off. The Cub I flew
>back in the Spring was a piece of cake.
>
>It's just a plane. Right? (Somebody say "yes".) Any
>clever advice, snide remarks, (yes, get that nose
>down), encouragement, etc will be appreciated.
>
>Larry Nelson
>Springfield, MO
>Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
>Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
>1963 GMC 4106-1618
>SV/ Spirit of America
>ARS WB0JOT
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M&M Stanley" <tomiya(at)di.mbn.or.jp> |
Hi BARNSTMR,and the list members,
A great looking model of the Piet. The aircraft that the builder modeled is
Simon McCormack's Piet in Tasmania.
For anyone that is interested, there is a neat video of the model in flight
and you can also download the plans (using Adobe) for free. There are 2
sections, one is the basic plans and the other is of full size parts etc.
A very well built little Piet !
Mark S
Japan
From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: FW: pete
Heres the address to a neat free-flight Piet model.
http://smallflyingarts.com/Current_Content/Spotlight/aircamper.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Maybe) First Flight? |
Larry,
Making the transition from experimental airplane builder to TEST PILOT puts
a little stress on the pucker: a) have someone else who's been an
experimental test pilot go thru the plane from front to back looking for
things you may have forgotten, b) you go thru the plane one more time and
then go flying, c) take his or her (safety chker) car keys with you on the
first flight, this will give your safety checker a little incentive to do a
good job for you. Good Luck.
Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
Cozy IV N64CY
Osprey II N64SY
Pietenpol N-1033B
" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (Maybe) First Flight?
>
>
> N444MH, Howard Henderson's old plane, has it's wing
> moved 3" aft of it's plans built location, to
> accomodate my 222# vs Howards and Joe Santana's 175#.
>
> Yesterday, I finished the work, safetied the
> turnbuckles, and had two friend help. I did some more
> high speed taxi's and raised the tail, when she
> promptly lifted off, and I put her back down.
>
> I did that on two more runs. It was the middle of the
> hot afternoon, with wind rustling the tree tops above
> me. I am at a one way in, opposite way out airstrip.
> The "A" was purring. (I loved the water spashing on my
> face from the overflow.)
>
> While I was being encouraged to go fly that darn
> thing, I decided to wait until the cool of a quiet
> morning, zero wind preferably. It was never my
> intention to fly her yesterday.
>
> I went flying in my Cessna 195 today (newly acquired 2
> months and 30 hours ago) and wondered to myself if I
> am just chicken. Got to shake it off. The Cub I flew
> back in the Spring was a piece of cake.
>
> It's just a plane. Right? (Somebody say "yes".) Any
> clever advice, snide remarks, (yes, get that nose
> down), encouragement, etc will be appreciated.
>
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Maybe) First Flight? |
Gordon, I wish I could claim to be the builder. It
flew the day before I loaded it on a trailer and
hauled it to MO. I merely moved the wing back. The
work I did to accomplish that was redoing the cabane X
brace wires, and redoing the lift strut wires and
Dremelling some of the metal work to allow the aileron
wires clearance at the cowling, since they were at a
different location with the wing moved back. I have
rebuilt factory aircraft in my younger days, and flew
them off the nearest highway to get them to the
airport. Once, with a Tripacer that I had installed
the tailfeather bellcrank UPSIDEDOWN, creating a
desire to go into a steep climb until I fixed that
problem. I have climbed into ultralights when someone
says, "hey, just go flight it"...then wishing I was on
the ground as soon as I flew it "higher than I wanted
to fall". Kissing the ground upon my return.....(only
to do it again a few weeks later).
I just need to go over it, and fly it.
--- Gordon Bowen wrote:
>
>
> Larry,
> Making the transition from experimental airplane
> builder to TEST PILOT puts
> a little stress on the pucker: a) have someone else
> who's been an
> experimental test pilot go thru the plane from front
> to back looking for
> things you may have forgotten, b) you go thru the
> plane one more time and
> then go flying, c) take his or her (safety chker)
> car keys with you on the
> first flight, this will give your safety checker a
> little incentive to do a
> good job for you. Good Luck.
> Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
> Cozy IV N64CY
> Osprey II N64SY
> Pietenpol N-1033B
> " There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are
> all crew", McLuhan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (Maybe) First Flight?
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > N444MH, Howard Henderson's old plane, has it's
> wing
> > moved 3" aft of it's plans built location, to
> > accomodate my 222# vs Howards and Joe Santana's
> 175#.
> >
> > Yesterday, I finished the work, safetied the
> > turnbuckles, and had two friend help. I did some
> more
> > high speed taxi's and raised the tail, when she
> > promptly lifted off, and I put her back down.
> >
> > I did that on two more runs. It was the middle of
> the
> > hot afternoon, with wind rustling the tree tops
> above
> > me. I am at a one way in, opposite way out
> airstrip.
> > The "A" was purring. (I loved the water spashing
> on my
> > face from the overflow.)
> >
> > While I was being encouraged to go fly that darn
> > thing, I decided to wait until the cool of a quiet
> > morning, zero wind preferably. It was never my
> > intention to fly her yesterday.
> >
> > I went flying in my Cessna 195 today (newly
> acquired 2
> > months and 30 hours ago) and wondered to myself if
> I
> > am just chicken. Got to shake it off. The Cub I
> flew
> > back in the Spring was a piece of cake.
> >
> > It's just a plane. Right? (Somebody say "yes".)
> Any
> > clever advice, snide remarks, (yes, get that nose
> > down), encouragement, etc will be appreciated.
> >
> > Larry Nelson
> > Springfield, MO
> > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> > 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> > SV/ Spirit of America
> > ARS WB0JOT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________
> page
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Maybe) First Flight? |
Larry,
Good luck. See if you can take the car keys of a safety checker anyway. If
they're serious about your safe return, you'll get a good second opinion of
the plane's safe condition. Test Pilots at Lockheed Skunk Works used to
take the car keys of the chief AP mechanic and chief design engineer with
them on first flights like the SR-71.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (Maybe) First Flight?
>
> Gordon, I wish I could claim to be the builder. It
> flew the day before I loaded it on a trailer and
> hauled it to MO. I merely moved the wing back. The
> work I did to accomplish that was redoing the cabane X
> brace wires, and redoing the lift strut wires and
> Dremelling some of the metal work to allow the aileron
> wires clearance at the cowling, since they were at a
> different location with the wing moved back. I have
> rebuilt factory aircraft in my younger days, and flew
> them off the nearest highway to get them to the
> airport. Once, with a Tripacer that I had installed
> the tailfeather bellcrank UPSIDEDOWN, creating a
> desire to go into a steep climb until I fixed that
> problem. I have climbed into ultralights when someone
> says, "hey, just go flight it"...then wishing I was on
> the ground as soon as I flew it "higher than I wanted
> to fall". Kissing the ground upon my return.....(only
> to do it again a few weeks later).
>
> I just need to go over it, and fly it.
>
>
> --- Gordon Bowen wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Larry,
> > Making the transition from experimental airplane
> > builder to TEST PILOT puts
> > a little stress on the pucker: a) have someone else
> > who's been an
> > experimental test pilot go thru the plane from front
> > to back looking for
> > things you may have forgotten, b) you go thru the
> > plane one more time and
> > then go flying, c) take his or her (safety chker)
> > car keys with you on the
> > first flight, this will give your safety checker a
> > little incentive to do a
> > good job for you. Good Luck.
> > Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
> > Cozy IV N64CY
> > Osprey II N64SY
> > Pietenpol N-1033B
> > " There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are
> > all crew", McLuhan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (Maybe) First Flight?
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > N444MH, Howard Henderson's old plane, has it's
> > wing
> > > moved 3" aft of it's plans built location, to
> > > accomodate my 222# vs Howards and Joe Santana's
> > 175#.
> > >
> > > Yesterday, I finished the work, safetied the
> > > turnbuckles, and had two friend help. I did some
> > more
> > > high speed taxi's and raised the tail, when she
> > > promptly lifted off, and I put her back down.
> > >
> > > I did that on two more runs. It was the middle of
> > the
> > > hot afternoon, with wind rustling the tree tops
> > above
> > > me. I am at a one way in, opposite way out
> > airstrip.
> > > The "A" was purring. (I loved the water spashing
> > on my
> > > face from the overflow.)
> > >
> > > While I was being encouraged to go fly that darn
> > > thing, I decided to wait until the cool of a quiet
> > > morning, zero wind preferably. It was never my
> > > intention to fly her yesterday.
> > >
> > > I went flying in my Cessna 195 today (newly
> > acquired 2
> > > months and 30 hours ago) and wondered to myself if
> > I
> > > am just chicken. Got to shake it off. The Cub I
> > flew
> > > back in the Spring was a piece of cake.
> > >
> > > It's just a plane. Right? (Somebody say "yes".)
> > Any
> > > clever advice, snide remarks, (yes, get that nose
> > > down), encouragement, etc will be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Larry Nelson
> > > Springfield, MO
> > > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> > > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> > > 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> > > SV/ Spirit of America
> > > ARS WB0JOT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > page
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > browse
> > Subscriptions page,
> > FAQ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fixed landing gear |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Thanks for the heads up, Dick. I'll check mine tonight. I always check
the bungees before each flight to ensure that they are still clamped in
place and haven't slipped, but I'm not as thorough about checking for
chafing.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Navratil
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear
Just a follow up on my landing gear problem. I spent the day at the
hangar, removing the wheels and axle. I was shocked to find that my
port side bungee had almost completely chaffed thru, not from this
incident but from rubbing on a bolt head on the gear leg. For anyone
who hasn't checked you bungees in a while, it may be worth unwrapping
and checking. I will make a chafe guard out of 2" SCH 40 pvc pipe to
cover the bolts.
Dick N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 09:23:58 AM
Made my first off-field landing this Saturday evening, due to my own
mistake I created a vapor lock between main and header tank.
Flew for 25 minutes until my header tank was empty and she went into Glider
"mode"
Luckily I was at 2000 ft and over lot of flat farm land.
Had to land a mile short of the home strip in a freshly harvested corn
field, it was rough.
But no damage, other than my own pride, sure like that split landing gear
with the fat tires ;)
I am making some small changes to the fuel lines trying to eliminate of
this ever happening again.
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAuAhUAw6q/92Fi5fWGqeZW1qnmp6Kg+rICFQCAS0yXCJ3ZmvEJZR1kStbqnEbkxw==
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
Hans: What caused the vapor lock? I have been thinking about fuel
problems lately. My fuel line runs along the outside of the fus. just
above the stringer. In 3 point or climb it runs uphill. In level
attitude it runs flat horizontally. I'm thinking I need to change it so
everything runs down hill from the tank to the gascolator so any air
bubbles flow up hill to the tank. Glad to heare your landing went well.
Leon S. In kansas corn country, also with split gear and fat tires.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
Hans,
Congratulations on the successful outcome. When you have time, please
tell us what about your current plumbing, how do you think it
contributed to the failure, and how do you intend to improve it.
Again, only when you have time.
Thanks,
Jeff
>
>
>Made my first off-field landing this Saturday evening, due to my own
>mistake I created a vapor lock between main and header tank.
>Flew for 25 minutes until my header tank was empty and she went into Glider
>"mode"
>Luckily I was at 2000 ft and over lot of flat farm land.
>Had to land a mile short of the home strip in a freshly harvested corn
>field, it was rough.
>
>But no damage, other than my own pride, sure like that split landing gear
>with the fat tires ;)
>
>I am making some small changes to the fuel lines trying to eliminate of
>this ever happening again.
>
>Hans
>
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Also, were you running Avgas or auto gas? My airport is out of avgas,
with no prospects to get any for the next several weeks, so I'm about ot
bite the bullet and run mogas in my Pietenpol. I know avgas has
additives to prevent vapor lock and just wondered if you were running
mogas and think that might have contributed to the problem?
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field
Hans,
Congratulations on the successful outcome. When you have time, please
tell us what about your current plumbing, how do you think it
contributed to the failure, and how do you intend to improve it.
Again, only when you have time.
Thanks,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 11:43:56 AM
Leon,
Yes, all fuel lines must run downhill, I ignored that in a 1 inch section
(and Murphy's law ruled)
My fuel line runs from the left rear end of the center section (rear spar)
through a shut off valve to the front left cabane.
Where it goes down in to a 2 Gallon Header tank.
I tried to keep the fuel line as high up as possible for passenger access
this causes a 1 inch curve back up right after the finger strainer and T
for the fuel drain valve.
This normally ought not be a problem as long as the line is full it will
syphon out continuously and there is no heat source to create gas bubbles.
But during taxi and run up I left the shut of valve closed, (I did open it
before take off as part of my check list).
The period during taxi and run up caused air in to enter the Header tank,
Header tank has its own vent line.
And his vent line gets Ram air during flight and the main tank has a
normal vented cap ( no ram air)
During flight it thus possible that the air pressure in header tank is
higher than in the main tank creating the air blockage or reverse flow.
The following I is what I am changing now, The 1 inch curve section is
removed by using a short street Tee at the tank.
And the line will slope down about an inch (1 : 24 slope)
My Air Camper seems to fly a little Tail high so in flight this increases
to about 1 : 12 slope, the only time I do not have this slope is during
climb out and landing flare, that is why I have a header tank.
A check valve will be place in the header tank vent line, air is allowed
out but not in.
A ram air intake on the main tank to create a slight pressure.
And a change in my check list, the main tank shut off valve is to remain
open at all times and only to be closed during emergency and maintenance
The reason I am certain that this caused the engine shut down is that when
I came to standstill after landing, I could hear the fuel run in to the
header tank again as there was no more Ram air pressure on the header tank
ventline.
Although my next flight will be with some nervousness, I do have great
confidence in the Pietenpol, It does not have a great glide ratio but with
engine out and full stall landing flare you can put it down on postage
stamp.
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 11:53:05 AM
Jack,
I run autogas in my Corvair engine.
At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor
pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect.
A local flies a Beech18 on the field on autogas and he flies a lot higher
than I do, it is used sometimes as jump plane climbing to 14000 ft.
Also the vapor lock occurred due to my own fault (operator error) and was
not created by a heat source.
My Gascolator and fuel lines on the firewall are all insulated and sloping
down to the carburetor.
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time,
hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com writes:
At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor
pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect.
Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than 100LL.
Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice out when
flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and when flying over
irrigated fields.
I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 01:01:07 PM
Thanks,
I agree auto gas could be prone to icing quicker.
However, I made a 45 minute flight that morning without any problems (Total
flying time is now 5 hours).
Did get some trouble with carb heat cable sticking and re-lubricated and
checked proper operation before the last flight.
None the less everything gets checked after every flight hour, I take the
cowling off and check for chaffing, anything coming loose or any cracks
developing,
or anything else out of the ordinary.
Hans
Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com
Sent by:
owner-pietenpol-l To
ist-server@matron pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
ics.com cc
Subject
08/29/2005 11:27 Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field
AM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time,
hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com writes:
At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor
pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect.
Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than
100LL. Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice out
when flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and when
flying over irrigated fields.
I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.552, required 3, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.05,
BAYES_00 -2.60)
Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time,
> hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com writes:
>
> /At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor
> pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect.
> /
>
> Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than
> 100LL. Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice
> out when flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and
> when flying over irrigated fields.
>
> I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well.
The I think its called the Reid Vapor Pressure isn't going to be the
issue, especially if its used in a Piet. Auto gas now often has alchol
in it that can degrade fuel lines and seals in some systems. It also
isn't the same in different parts of the country. The other thing that
is a big watch it is contamination during transport. It's easy to pick
up all sorts of nasty things from water to trash that if you don't plan
for it can wind up in you tank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field.. |
I dont think is a vapor lock problem,.. If the header tank is pressurized (ram
"L") and the wing tank is normally vented, then the air from the header was
pushing back the gasoline up to the wing tank. No gasoline could come down
by gravity
The header should be free vented and the wing tank with the inverted "L" ram pressure,
so the gasoline can be transfered with a little of preassure..
The shut off valve should be open only to transfer from the wing tank to the header,
or the gasoline will be overflown through the gas cap of the header.
Depending in the capacity of both tanks is the amount of gas tranfer each time.
Is more simple to do it than to explain it (at least for me)
Hope this helps
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
writes:
At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor
pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect.
Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than 100LL. Crop
dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice out when flying
at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and when flying over irrigated
fields.
I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field.. |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 03:19:37 PM
Gary,
My ram air "L" of the header tank is placed above main tank level.
Tubing is run all the way to top of wing this to avoid overflowing of the
headertank.
I would like to avoid a manual operation of filling the tank.
Come to think of it, the vented gas cap (on top of center section) could
be in a low pressure area
agrivating the problem
I believe a check valve in the header vent line and a Ram "L" on the
maintank will do the trick.
Thanks
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field.. |
Hans,
I will tell you what we have done is similar gasoline systems:
Here (in Mexico) Landing strips or places to land ad refuel (even with auto gas)
are few, dificult to find and problem makers, So we have Big experience in
gasoline transfer in our ultralights, when we go for XCountry.... Some have
worked, some make great glider practice :-)
Remember also we4ed killer bottle preassure system)
Gasoline transfer in several events sure is dangerous, because is easy to forget
(to open or to close the valve) same final gas shortage results.
The best system that worked for us (as automatic system) is to handle both tanks
as a unit (gravity and pressure talking) Hope can explain clear:
As I read you have a 2 galon header, well you have to make the cap of the header
airtight (and wire safety closed).
This is why:
You will always have the system in tranfer. right?
The vent of the header will go to the upper part of the main tank, so gasoline
will no be pushed back. The (lower) exit of the main tank will go to the upper
part of the header.... There will always be fuel in both tanks and hoses. Venting
of both tanks will be though the main gas cap. (safety later let me finish)
The filler cap of the main tank will be ram pressured. so this preasure will be
in both tanks at the same time, is phisics not me, you will always haved to
refill though the main tank and the header will always be full..
Now safety: both thanks need a drain plug for water, both need a shut valve,
the main tank one should be open in flight always (we safety the valve open position
in flight with a simple girl ponytail ruberband), If you need to close
this valve in an emergency just pull the ruber band with the finger and close
the valve. This way vibration will not close the valve and in an emergency
the main suply can be closed.
The other safety will be the main shut off valve in the lower header and the gascolator
in the lower part of the system. Hope is clear enough...
There is another (automatic) fool proof system when a single wing tank is used
as reserve... Higher than the main tank.
Could explain later, if needed.
Hope this helps, 15 years experience with ultralights, 4 hrs plus legs. in XCountry,
Several weekends a year with no gas shortage... Lots of fun with less
of worry.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com wrote:
Gary,
My ram air "L" of the header tank is placed above main tank level.
Tubing is run all the way to top of wing this to avoid overflowing of the
headertank.
I would like to avoid a manual operation of filling the tank.
Come to think of it, the vented gas cap (on top of center section) could
be in a low pressure area
agrivating the problem
I believe a check valve in the header vent line and a Ram "L" on the
maintank will do the trick.
Thanks
Hans
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? |
Hi Listers,
Does anyone know the story behind this aircraft and the crash? Almost
looks like an RC model especially given the cameraman's rather
unemotional comment following the crash. Kind of looks like the
elevator may have been hooked up backwards following a rebuild.
http://media4.big-boys.com/content/oldplanecrash.wmv
Any information on this video would be intersting.
Matt
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? |
Matt,
Quit the footage. Looks like a turbine conversion to a Caribou that took
off with the gust lock engaged.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash?
>
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> Does anyone know the story behind this aircraft and the crash? Almost
> looks like an RC model especially given the cameraman's rather
> unemotional comment following the crash. Kind of looks like the
> elevator may have been hooked up backwards following a rebuild.
>
> http://media4.big-boys.com/content/oldplanecrash.wmv
>
> Any information on this video would be intersting.
>
> Matt
>
>
> --
>
>
> Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? |
I think this is the crash that occured at Gimli Industrial Airpark in
Manitoba, Canada. The aircraft is a highly modified Caribou, converted to turbine
power and operated under the Experimental catagory of CAR 4b. It had flown the
year prior to the crash.
.
The complete report can be found starting on page 6 of a PDF file at this
website...
_http://www.asasi.org/papers/2001/Four%20Unrelated%20Accidents.pdf_
(http://www.asasi.org/papers/2001/Four%20Unrelated%20Accidents.pdf)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: First off-Field |
>You have to try landing in corn when it's not harvested.You talk about gettin
beaten up.This was done with an ultralight not enclosed.
> From: hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
> Date: 2005/08/29 Mon AM 09:23:56 EST
> To:
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field
>
>
>
> Made my first off-field landing this Saturday evening, due to my own
> mistake I created a vapor lock between main and header tank.
> Flew for 25 minutes until my header tank was empty and she went into Glider
> "mode"
> Luckily I was at 2000 ft and over lot of flat farm land.
> Had to land a mile short of the home strip in a freshly harvested corn
> field, it was rough.
>
> But no damage, other than my own pride, sure like that split landing gear
> with the fat tires ;)
>
> I am making some small changes to the fuel lines trying to eliminate of
> this ever happening again.
>
> Hans
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | light, simple, mindless fuel tank installations |
laval.com>
Hans-- I'm glad you landed safely and have determined the cause of your
fuel starvation problem. Excuse my continual
endorsement of the four-book series written by Tony Bingelis, but he shows
all types of fuel flow installations and knows
the do's and don't that are easily done without doing some valuable reading
first.
I can't help but recommend a nose-tank only for any kind of Pietenpol with
any kind of powerplant. You have the most
simple of designs with very short tubing/flexible tubing runs, a single
shutoff valve, a gascolator, and vented cap. You can
fit 17 gallons there too if you design it to fit the curved upper portion,
just under your aluminum cockpit cowling area.
With the nose tank you free up the entire center section for camping or any
other kind of gear. In my center section I can
fit my tent, sleeping air pad, cloth folding chair, tie downs, spare oil,
Marvel oil, and rags. It also makes for an excellent way
to easily inspect your aileron balance cable, turnbuckle, and two aileron
pullies.
With most Piets having tail-heavy syndrome, if you put your fuel just
behind the firewall instead of the cc, you help yoursefl
in the CG department.
The nose tank is easier to fill too....and if you spill some it doesn't run
down and drip on the pilot seat like a cc tank fill job can do.
Just some thoughts !
Simpler= lighter. Lighter= better performance and the ability to fly
passengers without a pucker factor in the high 9's.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | light, simple, mindless fuel tank installations |
| From: | "Textor, Jack" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Good thoughts Mike. How did you baffle your tank? If I recall, it was
welded aluminum.....?
Jack Textor
Des Moines
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: light, simple, mindless fuel tank installations
Hans-- I'm glad you landed safely and have determined the cause of your
fuel starvation problem. Excuse my continual
endorsement of the four-book series written by Tony Bingelis, but he
shows
all types of fuel flow installations and knows
the do's and don't that are easily done without doing some valuable
reading
first.
I can't help but recommend a nose-tank only for any kind of Pietenpol
with
any kind of powerplant. You have the most
simple of designs with very short tubing/flexible tubing runs, a single
shutoff valve, a gascolator, and vented cap. You can
fit 17 gallons there too if you design it to fit the curved upper
portion,
just under your aluminum cockpit cowling area.
With the nose tank you free up the entire center section for camping or
any
other kind of gear. In my center section I can
fit my tent, sleeping air pad, cloth folding chair, tie downs, spare
oil,
Marvel oil, and rags. It also makes for an excellent way
to easily inspect your aileron balance cable, turnbuckle, and two
aileron
pullies.
With most Piets having tail-heavy syndrome, if you put your fuel just
behind the firewall instead of the cc, you help yoursefl
in the CG department.
The nose tank is easier to fill too....and if you spill some it doesn't
run
down and drip on the pilot seat like a cc tank fill job can do.
Just some thoughts !
Simpler= lighter. Lighter= better performance and the ability to fly
passengers without a pucker factor in the high 9's.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca> |
| Subject: | Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? |
That's a real video of the crash of the first prototype Turbo Caribou. I
think it was Winnipeg, but I don't remember anymore. The control locks were
never removed before take-off. I didn't know them personally but they were
friends-of friends that died in that crash. the project was picked up later
and I was privileged to work on it. The STC to convert the Caribou to
turbines is now held by Pen Turbo in the States. DECA Aviation in Toronto
with some minor assistance form our company (Avionics Design Services)
finished off the program.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matt
Dralle
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash?
Hi Listers,
Does anyone know the story behind this aircraft and the crash? Almost
looks like an RC model especially given the cameraman's rather
unemotional comment following the crash. Kind of looks like the
elevator may have been hooked up backwards following a rebuild.
http://media4.big-boys.com/content/oldplanecrash.wmv
Any information on this video would be intersting.
Matt
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: light, simple, mindless fuel tank installations |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/30/2005 09:30:34 AM
Thanks Mike,
I came so close to doing exactly that during building but decided to stay
with the BHP design.
Now after this and a few times having to fill to CC tank I am considering
it again.
It still can easily be done although it would be more work as CG will
change forward.
Filling the CC tank is real pain and spillage risk is high, did not happen
to me yet but I am sure Murphy's law will rule on this to.
Plus that Tank sitting above you during a more damaging emergency landing
is potential for being soaked in gas
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAtAhQFEmWpUe9psACImwhWG9x/d4lwawIVAK/5V4nao7KD/vQvGG9vBd3S4QvK
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Good thoughts Mike. Unfortunately Model A builders like me are stuck
with the wing tank because of the high location of the Model A"s carb.
My carb. sets at the same height as the top of the fus. cowl.
eliminating gravity flow. Leon S. In hurricane free Kansas.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <GeneRambo(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rims and Tires |
The Travel Air uses 30x5 wheels. The shock cord attaches to the axle and center
vee, unlike a Cub where the shock cord is entirely on the axle "spreader bar."
I could come up with measurements for the Travel Air if anyone thought it
would be useful, but I doubt it.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Conkling<mailto:hpvs(at)southwind.net>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rims and Tires
Phil,
Look up the 1929-30 Travelair 2000 landing gear for how it could be done -- the
Travelair used 28 x 4 wheels with the shock cords attached to the center "vee"
(like a J-3 Cub). It will take some drafting time to figure axle placement
and landing gear angles for the right deck angle.
Concerning the straight axle Piets -- if I remember correctly, aren't Part 23
landing gear (only) stressed for about 3g's ??
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Miller<mailto:philip_miller_3(at)earthlink.net>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Rims and Tires
Is it possible to use split landing gear with spoked wheels? If so, are there
any special considerations about that (wheel dimensions limits, side loads,
etc.) I like the look of the spoked wheels, but the impact absorbtion, strength
and utility of the split axle sure looks more attractive. I'd miss those
beautiful ash struts though.
Phil Miller
PietenVair
Altadena,CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: light, simple, mindless fuel tank installations |
laval.com>
Jack-- I have no baffles in my tank. There are enough bends in that back
piece that it doesn't oil
can and the bottom is supported by two pieces of spruce running side to
side with s/s fuel tank straps
w/ felt glued to them cradling in the whole thing.
Good thoughts on the fuel above you during an accident, Hans. William
Wynne had a really neat idea
of making his cc out of fiberglass and using it as a structural member if
I'm not mistaken....but that
was also the cause of his burns after he had some carb ice and a forced
landing. A really great guy---hated
to see that happen. Lesson learned from all of these stories.
Some have asked if I get enough head pressure with my tank being all in the
nose and I performed flow testing
ala the Bingelis HP/min-flow-in-a-climb angle at the carb and I had the
required flow all the way down to just under 2 gallons.
So to fly safely full power in a climb, I need at least two gallons of fuel
in the tank or more. Not bad to have a useful load
of 15 gallons on board in a Piet.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fus. fuel tank. |
Yeah, I know JUST what you mean, same here, I can relate, that's been my
experience.....
Ok, I'll admit it, I don't actually know what the heck we're talking about
here....but since I'm picking up MY (ready to "bolt on and fly") Model A
this weekend, I'm just kinda excited about being able to include myself in
the "Model A builders like me" group, along with Leon, Larry, Ken, Jeff,
Kip, Douwe, et al.....
Jim in Plano.....making PockaTa PockaTa sounds....all the time now.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leon Stefan" <lshutks(at)webtv.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fus. fuel tank.
>
> Good thoughts Mike. Unfortunately Model A builders like me are stuck
> with the wing tank because of the high location of the Model A"s carb.
> My carb. sets at the same height as the top of the fus. cowl.
> eliminating gravity flow. Leon S. In hurricane free Kansas.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | nose tank sketch-installation: the correct attachment |
!
Guys--here is what my setup looks like.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
attachment !
| Subject: | nose tank sketch-installation: the correct |
attachment !
attachment !
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
You see that flex tube and connection at the bottom of your tank,well
turn it around so it goes directly out to the fire wall instead of
having that loop in it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: nose tank sketch-installation: the correct
attachment !
Guys--here is what my setup looks like.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | flex hose under tank |
ce.ca>
Harvey-- if I turned that fitting around I'd not have had room for my
shutoff valve and
a flex hose works to dampen vibration if in a loop or semi-loop as I have
it installed.
Has worked perfectly as drawn for 7 years and close to 400 hours of flying
time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | flex hose under tank |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Ok ,I stand corrected.In my situation I have the shut of valve directly
below the tank with the connection going out to the gascolator with no
flex tube in it as per an AME and I have yet to test mine.I am also
having more of a problem trying to connect up the shut off cable because
the valve is facing 90 degrees from where yours is and I have to find
somewhere on the side to mount that cable and high enough so it can
still shut off the valve.
It does give me an idea though,I can still turn my valve around 90
degrees and still have the lower connection connected up the same.Thanks
for the picture.I may still land up putting the flex tube it yet.I have
a short piece going from the gascolator to the carb as it stands right
now.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: flex hose under tank
Harvey-- if I turned that fitting around I'd not have had room for my
shutoff valve and
a flex hose works to dampen vibration if in a loop or semi-loop as I
have
it installed.
Has worked perfectly as drawn for 7 years and close to 400 hours of
flying
time.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | flex hose under tank |
ce.ca>
Harvey-- you know I had the exact same setup as you describe on your tank
and the reason I switched to the flex line is that I could not for the life
of me make
up that little line of alum. tubing with flares to match both my fuel valve
and my firewall
fitting !!! It was such a short run that I couldn't get it right-- could
not get the tube in the
flaring tool after I did one end.
I hear you on the actuator problem too on your valve orientation. You can
do it though !
;You know my IA was watching me toil with that short tubing connection and
HE was the one
who suggested I turn that blasted fitting around and run/purchase a s/s
braided flex hose
to complete the run--and boy am I glad I did. I can't take credit for
that installation idea, but
it has worked like a charm.
Don't forget to use fuel lube on all your threads/connections. It feels
like thick bees wax....and if
I'm not mistaken it just might be. I have some if you need it and can
ship it to you via mail.
You won't need more than a shot glass full for three airplanes worth.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | flex hose under tank |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I can't take credit for that flared alluminum pipe either because it was
already done when I got the plane.Yes sir I used fuel lube on all my
connections even the ones at the flex hose and the AME said I didn't
need to.
He informed me on how sticky it is because he supplied me with some and
your right it doesn't take much.He was very enfatic on the point of not
getting it in the line too.If I can get that whole connection to move 90
degrees then I will fix my problem tonight after work.I figure I'll have
to disconnect that alluminum tube first though.Oh boy another trip
upside down and backwards while hanging on with my knees and one hand.I
have bruises all
up and down my one side from doing this acrobatic feat and I'm not
amused.The guys at the field keep telling me I'm having fun!This plane
building is interesting especially when most of its been done already
and I have to go in and fix it or modify it after the fact.I have had to
cut holes in the side of the aircraft just to install seat belts because
they were not put in.Interesting way to build.I see now why the guy at
the government office (when I went to apply for my registration) told me
that I would have to dismantle the plane and start over again;maybe he
had something there.I thought he was nuts at the time but I'm beginning
to think maybe he was right.Having fun here in cold Canada;I use that
term loosely!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: flex hose under tank
Harvey-- you know I had the exact same setup as you describe on your
tank
and the reason I switched to the flex line is that I could not for the
life
of me make
up that little line of alum. tubing with flares to match both my fuel
valve
and my firewall
fitting !!! It was such a short run that I couldn't get it right--
could
not get the tube in the
flaring tool after I did one end.
I hear you on the actuator problem too on your valve orientation. You
can
do it though !
;You know my IA was watching me toil with that short tubing connection
and
HE was the one
who suggested I turn that blasted fitting around and run/purchase a s/s
braided flex hose
to complete the run--and boy am I glad I did. I can't take credit for
that installation idea, but
it has worked like a charm.
Don't forget to use fuel lube on all your threads/connections. It feels
like thick bees wax....and if
I'm not mistaken it just might be. I have some if you need it and can
ship it to you via mail.
You won't need more than a shot glass full for three airplanes worth.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fuel prices and gas tanks |
| From: | hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com |
27, 2005) at 08/30/2005 02:16:48 PM
Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price (automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
forty cents up from yesterday!
Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 + by the end of the week
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fuel prices and gas tanks |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Up here we are paying 1.03$ per litre which translates to 4X's that much
for a gallon.So we pay 4.12/gallon but then again our gallon is slightly
bigger than yours and our dollar is lower as well.Sooooo I think we are
about on par with you.But because our dollar is lower it seems like we
are paying twice as much.I am looking forward to the day when we can
stick it to them and fly on water for fuel!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel prices and gas tanks
Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price (automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
forty cents up from yesterday!
Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 + by the end of the week
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAtAhUAghB5HmEawieVTA59fIlm5UGzn+ICFC2plCl21uvX99rnCm/duzYFkCVU
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
| Subject: | Fus. Fuel tank idea |
The man who had the Corvair project fuselage at Brodhead had a great
idea for his nose tank. It was a 12 gal. race car fuel cell from Jeggs.
They even have the foam inside. He said W. Wynn gave him the suggestion.
Leon S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Cosentino <ccosenti(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? |
Hi Matt,
I asked on one of the flight sim boards I frequent.
Appears to be a full size De Havilland DHC-4T Caribou:
Some people linked to this document (page 7 - page 6 in PDF), starting fourth paragraph)
http://www.asasi.org/papers/2001/Four%20Unrelated%20Accidents.pdf
The final example I?d like to bring before you today also deals with a modified
aircraft.
Like the first event I described, it?s unusual because virtually the entire accident
sequence
is captured on videotape.
The accident occurred in August 1992 at the Gimli Industrial Park in Manitoba?a
famous site in Canadian aviation history, where an Air Canada Boeing 767 known
as the
Gimli Glider was dead-sticked onto a drag racing strip, following fuel exhaustion.
The accident aircraft is a highly modified de Havilland aircraft. In this case
a Caribou had
been converted to turbine power and was operated under the EXPERIMENTAL category
of CAR 4b.
The conversion was accomplished at Gimli, and the aircraft first flew in mid-November
1991, before accumulating about 23 hours on 12 flights by month end.
These preliminary tests revealed the need for the replacement of the aircraft?s
mechanical
vacuum pumps with a Bendix suction system, the addition of in-line fuel boost pumps
and the installation of a newly designed hydraulic pump.
The accident occurred on August 27, 1992 on the first of several planned trips
to flightcheck
the fuel and hydraulic systems. The aircraft had been hangared in a partially disassembled
state over the winter, and had only recently been re-assembled, including the
re-installation of the complete tail section.
I?ll let the video show you what happened?and I will caution you right now that
this
footage is extremely graphic?
[Video?]
The accident investigation used this videotape and some 35mm photographs as a key
resource in determining what went wrong at Gimli.
With the exception of a slightly higher-than-normal nose attitude at lift-off,
the aircraft?s
initial climb appeared normal. At about 35 feet AGL, the aircraft made a noticeable
pitchup
movement.
When I tell you that the photography revealed that the elevator control surfaces
were
observed to pitch trailing-edge-up for rotation, neutralize and then remain in
the neutral
position through the balance of that short flight, I expect most of you will come
to the
same conclusion as the Transportation Safety Board of Canada. The aircraft?s control
gust locks were at least partly engaged.
A very close examination of the video does indicate rudder movement and minimal
elevator movement, during the start of the takeoff roll.
On the standard Caribou, the gust lock control handle is located forward of the
power
quadrant, and it has two positions?forward for Unlocked, and aft for Locked. If
the
control surfaces are not in the neutral position when the lock is engaged, any
movement
of the surfaces through the neutral position will cause the lock to engage.
In addition, on the factory-standard Caribou, the control handle is designed so
that when
it is in the aft-Locked position, the power levers cannot be fully advanced. This
is
intended to prevent power application and takeoff when the gust lock system is
engaged.
The accident investigation further revealed that the aircraft?s takeoff distance
was
approximately 20 per cent longer than anticipated for the conditions. This may
provide
further evidence that the gust locks played a part in this event.
Analysis of the recovered debris indicated that, although the aileron and elevator
locking
mechanisms were in their respective Disengaged positions, the rudder locking
mechanism was found to have been in the fully engaged position at impact.
Further investigation revealed that in fact, it had been jammed there by the forces
of the
impact. In addition, the analysis determined from the damage evidence that the
aileron
control lock had been dis-engaged at the time of impact.
In its synopsis of the accident, the Transportation Safety Board concluded that
the control
gust lock system had not been fully disengaged prior to flight and that one or
more of the
locking pins had become re-engaged after lift-off.
See also:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920827-1
Narrative:
The aircraft took off for a test flight for a turbine-engine conversion programme.
It climbed steeply, rolled to the right and crashed in a nose-down, rightwing-low
attitude.
3 fatalities
Tuesday, August 30, 2005, 12:44:20 AM, dralle(at)matronics.com wrote:
MD> Hi Listers,
MD> Does anyone know the story behind this aircraft and the crash? Almost
MD> looks like an RC model especially given the cameraman's rather
MD> unemotional comment following the crash. Kind of looks like the
MD> elevator may have been hooked up backwards following a rebuild.
MD> http://media4.big-boys.com/content/oldplanecrash.wmv
MD> Any information on this video would be intersting.
MD> Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fus. Fuel tank idea |
I have always wondered why more homebuilders don't use these kind of fuel
tanks. As some people on the newsgroup have mentioned before, if a NASCAR
offical inspected the typical homebuild fuel system for safety he would
laugh his butt off. WW is very sensitive to the issue of crash-worthy fuel
systems after his burn injuries after a Piet crash. I know that few if any
prebuilt tanks would fit in the center section but fitting one behind the
firewall shouldn't be a problem.
On 8/30/05, Leon Stefan wrote:
>
>
> The man who had the Corvair project fuselage at Brodhead had a great
> idea for his nose tank. It was a 12 gal. race car fuel cell from Jeggs.
> They even have the foam inside. He said W. Wynn gave him the suggestion.
> Leon S.
>
>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel prices and gas tanks |
$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a business trip and regular
is already $2.99 before any increase. By the way had the afternoon off and
visited the San Diego Aerospace Museam, it is excellent. They have the
original wing rib jig used to make the Spirt of St. Louis wing down the road
at Lindberg field and it used 1/2" x 1/4" cap strips just like the Piet
except they are rotated 90 degrees so the entire rib is 1/4" thick.
On 8/30/05, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
wrote:
>
>
> Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price (automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
> forty cents up from yesterday!
> Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 + by the end of the week
>
>
> Hans
>
>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
<984E798CE7C4D4419A6D99DF385597A896154C(at)toroondc511.bell.corp.bc e.ca>
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel prices and gas tanks |
That's $2.40 WHOLESALE.
I missed it, too, the first time I read it.
--
In other news, the city of New Orleans disappeared today. My personal
favorite for help in natural disasters is the Mennonite Disaster
Service. They come early, stay late; way, way after the TV cameras
leave:
http://www.mds.mennonite.net/
>$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a business trip and
>regular is already $2.99 before any increase.
>
>...
>--
>Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fuel prices and gas tanks |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
Gas prices this morning in Ottawa Canada jumped to 120.09 which
translates to 4.90/gal. I may not be able to afford to fly when I get
the Piet finished!
New Orleans is under 6 meters of water which translates to 18 feet of
wet.Ya I'd say it disappeared.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel prices and gas tanks
That's $2.40 WHOLESALE.
I missed it, too, the first time I read it.
--
In other news, the city of New Orleans disappeared today. My personal
favorite for help in natural disasters is the Mennonite Disaster
Service. They come early, stay late; way, way after the TV cameras
leave:
http://www.mds.mennonite.net/
>$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a business trip and
>regular is already $2.99 before any increase.
>
>...
>--
>Rick Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | HAPI powered Pietenpol for sale on Barnstormers.com |
9-4967@storefull-3317.bay.webtv.net>
Guys-- this is wild.
PIETENPOL =95 $9,500 =95 FOR SALE =95 Piet. aircamper, 29tt, o time Hapi v/w
conversion elect. start, dual controls. Call 618-565-2053 =95 Contact Gordon
W. Glodo - located Grand Tower, IL USA =95 Telephone: 618-565-2053 =95 Posted
July 13, 2005 =95 Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser =95 Recommend This Ad
to a Friend =95 Send a Message
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitty <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel prices and gas tanks |
Here in Jackson ms yesterday some clown were selling 5
gal jugs for $100.Damn bastards!! :(It's pretty bad
here at the moment.No gas,no drinking water...We got
power but my internet still dont work...SUX
--- Rick Holland wrote:
> $2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a
> business trip and regular
> is already $2.99 before any increase. By the way had
> the afternoon off and
> visited the San Diego Aerospace Museam, it is
> excellent. They have the
> original wing rib jig used to make the Spirt of St.
> Louis wing down the road
> at Lindberg field and it used 1/2" x 1/4" cap strips
> just like the Piet
> except they are rotated 90 degrees so the entire rib
> is 1/4" thick.
>
>
> On 8/30/05, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>
> wrote:
> >
> hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
> >
> >
> > Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price
> (automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
> > forty cents up from yesterday!
> > Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 +
> by the end of the week
> >
> >
> > Hans
> >
> >
> >
> >
> =====================================
> =====================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harvey Rule <harvey.rule(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel prices and gas tanks |
We have been watching you hard luck on the news.Many people never made
it through the storm.
Our heart goes out to you and yours at this time.It appears as though
there may not be a solution soon
to everyone's problems.We heard another Levey broke and that's not
good,not good at all.
>
>Here in Jackson ms yesterday some clown were selling 5
>gal jugs for $100.Damn bastards!! :(It's pretty bad
>here at the moment.No gas,no drinking water...We got
>power but my internet still dont work...SUX
>
>--- Rick Holland wrote:
>
>
>
>>$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a
>>business trip and regular
>>is already $2.99 before any increase. By the way had
>>the afternoon off and
>>visited the San Diego Aerospace Museam, it is
>>excellent. They have the
>>original wing rib jig used to make the Spirt of St.
>>Louis wing down the road
>>at Lindberg field and it used 1/2" x 1/4" cap strips
>>just like the Piet
>>except they are rotated 90 degrees so the entire rib
>>is 1/4" thick.
>>
>>
>>On 8/30/05, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>>
>>
>>>Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price
>>>
>>>
>>(automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
>>
>>
>>>forty cents up from yesterday!
>>>Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 +
>>>
>>>
>>by the end of the week
>>
>>
>>>Hans
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>=====================================
>>=====================================
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Rick Holland
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark <aerialphotos(at)dp.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel prices and gas tanks |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.256, required 3, AWL -0.26, BAYES_00 -2.60,
J_CHICKENPOX_32 0.60)
I got my commercial CFI and CFII at Jackson. Times like this bring out
the best in people and the worst in people. I hope you told the guy
what he could do with the hundred that someone would eventually pay even
if you didn't. Yet with the jerks you don't hear about the good
stories. My dad after Camile picked up a camp stove for my aunt in
Gulfport at the time. He took it to the counter to check out. The
owner looked at him and asked, "Is this going to someone on the Gulf
Coast?" He told him it was for his sister in the Gulfport area. He
just said, "No charge, and wish her my best."
I was on the coast about 2 weeks after Camile. This has many
simularities. Its almost like you combine the flooding of Virginia, but
put it in worst terrain (New Orleans) and the other destruction and you
have damage that will last for decades. The last time I was there only
a few years ago you could still see some signs of Camile and that was
decades later. This one will be no different and likely worse in some
ways.
Hopefully those that had airplanes in the area got them out and can go
fly them occasionally to get away from the rest of the mess.
Mitty wrote:
>
>Here in Jackson ms yesterday some clown were selling 5
>gal jugs for $100.Damn bastards!! :(It's pretty bad
>here at the moment.No gas,no drinking water...We got
>power but my internet still dont work...SUX
>
>--- Rick Holland wrote:
>
>
>
>>$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a
>>business trip and regular
>>is already $2.99 before any increase. By the way had
>>the afternoon off and
>>visited the San Diego Aerospace Museam, it is
>>excellent. They have the
>>original wing rib jig used to make the Spirt of St.
>>Louis wing down the road
>>at Lindberg field and it used 1/2" x 1/4" cap strips
>>just like the Piet
>>except they are rotated 90 degrees so the entire rib
>>is 1/4" thick.
>>
>>
>>On 8/30/05, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>>
>>
>>>Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price
>>>
>>>
>>(automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
>>
>>
>>>forty cents up from yesterday!
>>>Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 +
>>>
>>>
>>by the end of the week
>>
>>
>>>Hans
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>=====================================
>>=====================================
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Rick Holland
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fuel prices and gas tanks |
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I went to the New Orleans web page yesterday and they have bigger
problems than anyone could imagine.There are now sharks and alligators
wondering around in those waters.Boy ,that's scary!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel prices and gas tanks
I got my commercial CFI and CFII at Jackson. Times like this bring out
the best in people and the worst in people. I hope you told the guy
what he could do with the hundred that someone would eventually pay even
if you didn't. Yet with the jerks you don't hear about the good
stories. My dad after Camile picked up a camp stove for my aunt in
Gulfport at the time. He took it to the counter to check out. The
owner looked at him and asked, "Is this going to someone on the Gulf
Coast?" He told him it was for his sister in the Gulfport area. He
just said, "No charge, and wish her my best."
I was on the coast about 2 weeks after Camile. This has many
simularities. Its almost like you combine the flooding of Virginia, but
put it in worst terrain (New Orleans) and the other destruction and you
have damage that will last for decades. The last time I was there only
a few years ago you could still see some signs of Camile and that was
decades later. This one will be no different and likely worse in some
ways.
Hopefully those that had airplanes in the area got them out and can go
fly them occasionally to get away from the rest of the mess.
Mitty wrote:
>
>Here in Jackson ms yesterday some clown were selling 5
>gal jugs for $100.Damn bastards!! :(It's pretty bad
>here at the moment.No gas,no drinking water...We got
>power but my internet still dont work...SUX
>
>--- Rick Holland wrote:
>
>
>
>>$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a
>>business trip and regular
>>is already $2.99 before any increase. By the way had
>>the afternoon off and
>>visited the San Diego Aerospace Museam, it is
>>excellent. They have the
>>original wing rib jig used to make the Spirt of St.
>>Louis wing down the road
>>at Lindberg field and it used 1/2" x 1/4" cap strips
>>just like the Piet
>>except they are rotated 90 degrees so the entire rib
>>is 1/4" thick.
>>
>>
>>On 8/30/05, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
>>
>>
>>>Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price
>>>
>>>
>>(automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
>>
>>
>>>forty cents up from yesterday!
>>>Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 +
>>>
>>>
>>by the end of the week
>>
>>
>>>Hans
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>=====================================
>>=====================================
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Rick Holland
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
<984E798CE7C4D4419A6D99DF385597A8961557(at)toroondc511.bell.corp.bce.ca>
<984E798CE7C4D4419A6D99DF385597A8961557(at)toroondc511.bell.corp.bce.ca>
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | fuel prices and gas tanks |
http://www.mds.mennonite.net/
http://www.redcross.org/
http://www.aspca.org/
>
>I went to the New Orleans web page yesterday and they have bigger
>problems than anyone could imagine.There are now sharks and alligators
>wondering around in those waters.Boy ,that's scary!
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
Howard Hendersons Pietenpol, N444MH (for MacLaren /
Henderson I guess) flew this morning. I made three
flights and everything went GREAT.
She is a bit "right wing low" hand off, BUT she does
has a broken left wing tip rib, that might be the
cause of that, although it is hardly noticable.
My little strip is just east of metro Springfield,
MIssouri, the Flying Bar H. She is banana shaped in
plan view and I didn't realize that till this morning
when I looked DOWN on it. She is "take off to the SW
and land to the NE" kind of strip, due to
obstructions. Immediately upon departure you fly over
a deep railroad "trench" with trees on both sides. Not
a good place to have to put her back down, and on my
mind, you can be sure.
I just LOVE flying this plane. My first landing was
the best. My last as just sort of flaring too high and
she just settled in without complaint.
Anyway, since Chuck wouldn't let me ride in HIS plane
at Brodhead '04 (said I was way too fat, but he did
take my friend Wes up).....I thought I need to join
the fun.
Try to wipe my smile off....I dare ya.
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
__________________________________
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com> |
What is the best practice for seat and shoulder belts for a new Piet and
does anybody have any purchase sourcing suggestions? Thanks all.
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
Larry-- way to go. Congratulations on logging your 1st few flights in a
Pietenpol !!!
On the broken wingtip bow....is that the bow that is broken ? If so--that
is a compression
member and I'd not fly it like that. If it is a rib--less worry.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Way to go, Larry! Great feeling, isn't it?
Depending on how the rib is broken, you might be able to repair it
without having to do much fabric work. I had to repair one broken rib
after my forced landing last fall and was able to do the repair in place
by working through one inspection hole and a 6" slit in the fabric which
was easily patched with tape. How did the rib get broken?
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
Mike, it is a rib that was actually broken, I believe,
by HH hisself. Previous owner never repaired but I am
planning on doing so this winter.
--- Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
>
> Larry-- way to go. Congratulations on logging your
> 1st few flights in a
> Pietenpol !!!
>
> On the broken wingtip bow....is that the bow that is
> broken ? If so--that
> is a compression
> member and I'd not fly it like that. If it is a
> rib--less worry.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Cessna 195 N9883A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | harvey.rule(at)bell.ca |
I used the military type from Aircraft Spruce.I havn't flown with them
yet but just sitting in the seat and making motor noises;they feel just
fine.
I bought the lap belt and two shoulder strap type that has a long single
belt on the shoulder for feeding back behind the seat and around the
cable and through the special wrap back on itself piece.It looks like a
square piece of metal with slots in it.This piece comes with the order.I
cut a slot in the wood that my back rests on,as high as I could get it
without running into too much wood from the turtle deck.Seems to work
OK.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Seat Belts
What is the best practice for seat and shoulder belts for a new Piet and
does anybody have any purchase sourcing suggestions? Thanks all.
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
========================================================================
======
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
Jack, HH kept meticulous logs and so did Joe Santana.
I believe it was HH that ground looped her. And thanks
for the advice.
--- "Phillips, Jack"
wrote:
> Jack"
>
> Way to go, Larry! Great feeling, isn't it?
>
> Depending on how the rib is broken, you might be
> able to repair it
> without having to do much fabric work. I had to
> repair one broken rib
> after my forced landing last fall and was able to do
> the repair in place
> by working through one inspection hole and a 6" slit
> in the fabric which
> was easily patched with tape. How did the rib get
> broken?
>
> Jack Phillips
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Cessna 195 N9883A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
__________________________________
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tuu2Tango(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HAPI powered Pietenpol for sale on Barnstormers.com |
This might be worth exploring except for the VW engine. Been there, done
that and VERY disappointed in VW based "airplane" engines.. Won't fly in an
aircamper very well, that I can promise.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
Hey Larry !!
A big CONGRATULATIONS on your first flight !! You're gonna have a blast
flying that little ol' plane around. It's both challenging and forgiving. When
you land at various airports, folks come out of the woodwork to check out your
plane !! They don't even glance at a half million dollor plane, just to check
your plane in detail. It's great to have N444MH back in the air, where she
belongs !!
Chuck G.
ps I'm glad you took my wise crack in jest...the way it was meant.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christian Bobka" <sbobka(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Try to wipe that smile off my face! |
Chuck is right. The best airplane to own is the one where they push the Learjet
out of the hangar to put yours in.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Try to wipe that smile off my face!
Hey Larry !!
A big CONGRATULATIONS on your first flight !! You're gonna have a blast flying
that little ol' plane around. It's both challenging and forgiving. When you
land at various airports, folks come out of the woodwork to check out your
plane !! They don't even glance at a half million dollor plane, just to check
your plane in detail. It's great to have N444MH back in the air, where she belongs
!!
Chuck G.
ps I'm glad you took my wise crack in jest...the way it was meant.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitty <benny_bee_01(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel prices and gas tanks |
True,Mark.
I just got home from gas hunting..No luck.I have about
1.5 - 2 gallons left in my bike.That will be enough
for two more trips to work and back .Then i'll buy me
a shwinn bike.
Now there is a NUMBER of great folks.Everyone except
those few bastards luders(spell) are holding up
together.Helping out each other.Companies open doors
for people.Distributing ice and drinking water for
free..The only problem is that we have no gas around
here to drive and take chance for it.However we are
here are high spirited.We got through the storm with
minimal damage here .Got power back so we re cool.No
water or gas is ok...Hopefully soon we'll get some.
Now In new orleans few folks (watching here on TV) are
screaming "take us out,WE WANT OUT" Then walmart
burgluries.Heared on radio they were breaking in
hospitals looking for drugs.Hell here on CNN i saw a
dude running with about three dozens of fishing
poles.Those assholes(excuse my french) were warned and
asked to move out.Instread they chosen to ride it
out.Then they chose to break in the stores and steal
stuff even if they don't really need 6 pairs of jeans
or riding lawnmower(sae on CNN boy pushing it out of
store)
Then they choose to shoot up the helicopter that was
rescuing folks.
Then they acuse government because it's easier to
blame uncle sam then do something for your own good.
It's just a type of people.Makes me sick and
disgusted.Let me tell you,I saw a tramendous help from
government and other folks.People helping each other
and this is a bottom line.We'll get through it only
working together.Now acusing sam or each other.
Peace out.:)
Mitty
--- Mark wrote:
>
>
> I got my commercial CFI and CFII at Jackson. Times
> like this bring out
> the best in people and the worst in people. I hope
> you told the guy
> what he could do with the hundred that someone would
> eventually pay even
> if you didn't. Yet with the jerks you don't hear
> about the good
> stories. My dad after Camile picked up a camp stove
> for my aunt in
> Gulfport at the time. He took it to the counter to
> check out. The
> owner looked at him and asked, "Is this going to
> someone on the Gulf
> Coast?" He told him it was for his sister in the
> Gulfport area. He
> just said, "No charge, and wish her my best."
>
> I was on the coast about 2 weeks after Camile. This
> has many
> simularities. Its almost like you combine the
> flooding of Virginia, but
> put it in worst terrain (New Orleans) and the other
> destruction and you
> have damage that will last for decades. The last
> time I was there only
> a few years ago you could still see some signs of
> Camile and that was
> decades later. This one will be no different and
> likely worse in some
> ways.
>
> Hopefully those that had airplanes in the area got
> them out and can go
> fly them occasionally to get away from the rest of
> the mess.
>
>
>
> Mitty wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Here in Jackson ms yesterday some clown were
> selling 5
> >gal jugs for $100.Damn bastards!! :(It's pretty bad
> >here at the moment.No gas,no drinking water...We
> got
> >power but my internet still dont work...SUX
> >
> >--- Rick Holland wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>$2.40? Ha! Thats peanuts, I am in San Diego on a
> >>business trip and regular
> >>is already $2.99 before any increase. By the way
> had
> >>the afternoon off and
> >>visited the San Diego Aerospace Museam, it is
> >>excellent. They have the
> >>original wing rib jig used to make the Spirt of
> St.
> >>Louis wing down the road
> >>at Lindberg field and it used 1/2" x 1/4" cap
> strips
> >>just like the Piet
> >>except they are rotated 90 degrees so the entire
> rib
> >>is 1/4" thick.
> >>
> >>
> >>On 8/30/05, hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
> >>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com
> >>
> >>
> >>>Some inside info: Gasoline wholesale price
> >>>
> >>>
> >>(automobil) just hit 2.40 ,
> >>
> >>
> >>>forty cents up from yesterday!
> >>>Fill up your gas tanks, retail price will be 3 +
> >>>
> >>>
> >>by the end of the week
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hans
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>=====================================
> >>=====================================
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Rick Holland
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> protection around
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
August 16, 2005 - September 01, 2005
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-eq