Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ev

January 14, 2006 - January 28, 2006



      early on takeoff roll.  It can want to lift off before it's ready to fly.  If
      can lead to a stall in ground effect.
      Dick N.
      ----- Original Message -----
        From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:13 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line.....
      
      
        Pieters,   I just put my wings on in the machine shed and I gave the top longerons
      a quick angle measurment and came up with 14 degrees.  Now part of the
      problem is that I  started out with 6:00 x 6 wheels but then went to 21 inch motorcycle
      wheel which raised the axles about 3 inches.  I think 12 degrees is
      normal and wonder how it will handle,  Sure looks high but easy to prop.  This
      was measured empty but with my 230 pounds in the back seat the tailwheel will
      probably deflect as much as the mains. Any comments would be appreciated. Ken
      Conrad in very mild Iowa.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line.....
Date: Jan 14, 2006
Ken, Mine has 21" wheels and a deck angle of about 13 degrees. In the three point attitude it is right at the stall. I think 14 degrees might be just a tad too much. You can always extend your tailwheel down a bit further to decrease the deck angle. That would be a better solution than changing the incidence of the wing. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Wizzard187(at)aol.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:13 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line..... Pieters, I just put my wings on in the machine shed and I gave the top longerons a quick angle measurment and came up with 14 degrees. Now part of the problem is that I started out with 6:00 x 6 wheels but then went to 21 inch motorcycle wheel which raised the axles about 3 inches. I think 12 degrees is normal and wonder how it will handle, Sure looks high but easy to prop. This was measured empty but with my 230 pounds in the back seat the tailwheel will probably deflect as much as the mains. Any comments would be appreciated. Ken Conrad in very mild Iowa. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2006
From: "Scott S." <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: any Piets in middle TN?
Or anywhere within 100 miles of Nashville? Might like to look at one or two close up. Can learn alot that way. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: any Piets in middle TN?
Date: Jan 14, 2006
None completed as far as I know, but there are four in advanced states of completion. I have two (in HSV), one is in a hanger at the Hazel Green airport (20 minutes north of HSV) and one in Florence, AL ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott S. To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 9:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: any Piets in middle TN? Or anywhere within 100 miles of Nashville? Might like to look at one or two close up. Can learn alot that way. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Seat belts and harnesses, and ignitions
Date: Jan 14, 2006
Oscar, If 41CC has shoulder belts, any idea why the pilot hit the instrument panel? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tundra tires or Motorcycle tires
Straight tracks..... Robison wrote: Kenneth H. Are you going to use the slicks or straight trac? Looks like they weigh about 9lbs ea. Scott R --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2006
From: "Scott S." <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: any Piets in middle TN?
Thanks for the leads. I'd like to see one (preferably not finished, so I can see how it goes together), maybe within the next couple weeks, if and when I decide to start the project. Been looking at the Piet for a good while now and sure do like it. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: any Piets in middle TN?
Date: Jan 14, 2006
I just found this site the other day. I'm just getting started with all this myself. There's a map showing a good bunch of builders across the country. http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott S. To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: any Piets in middle TN? Or anywhere within 100 miles of Nashville? Might like to look at one or two close up. Can learn alot that way. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: any Piets in middle TN?
Yeah, Frapper is a great site. Anyone not on it should get on it. Even you guys with friends building Piets, not on computers, should add your friends. Ain't life Grand! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Thomas To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: any Piets in middle TN? I just found this site the other day. I'm just getting started with all this myself. There's a map showing a good bunch of builders across the country. http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott S. To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: any Piets in middle TN? Or anywhere within 100 miles of Nashville? Might like to look at one or two close up. Can learn alot that way. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Subject: Looking for Lee
Hey, does anyone know the last name of Lee ? He's the guy from Brodhead, that sells the really nice Polo shirts, with your N number on them. Maybe even an e-mail address ? Chuck G. NX770CG p.s. going to be in the high 60's today in Wichita !! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2006
From: Matt Naiva <corvaircoupe(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Christmas book idea-Nate Saint
Oscar, Thanks for this book recommendation, I received mine January 5th and finished reading the book January 8th 50 years to the date Nate and company lost their lives. This weekend their is an epic movie in the theaters documenting the ordeal called "End of the Spear". http://www.endofthespear.com/ Books on Mission Aviation are always an interesting read of lives lived on the the edge for greater calling. Regards, Matt "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Christmas book idea Date: Dec 19, 2005 For those who might be looking for a stocking stuffer book idea, try Russell Hitt's book "Jungle Pilot" (available from Amazon.com, among others). Corvair/KR builder-pilot Bill Clapp would certainly know what this book is about; the life of missionary pilot Nate Saint, a pilot with Missionary Aviation Fellowship who died in Ecuador. If you've looked at Glenda McElwee's website, she mentions a trip that she and Bill are planning to fly, down to Ecuador. Bill is familiar with that part of the world! Nate Saint developed an ingenious backup fuel system for use in small, single-engine aircraft that are flown over inhospitable terrain. Missionary Aviation Fellowship used this system on aircraft that they operated, and for all I know they may still be using it. Nate felt that there were enough incidents and accidents caused by fuel system problems that a backup system was justified, so he developed a scheme that uses a small auxiliary fuel tank piped directly to the engine intake, bypassing the fuel selector valve, gascolator, and everything else that can get crudded up along the way. It's controlled by a manual valve, similar to mixture control. He also developed an ingenious way to lower things from a circling airplane to the ground below, using a line and bucket, but that would be giving away the details in the book... ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.ne ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling.
Date: Jan 15, 2006
----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Hansen To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling. Group, This cowling is made from .032" commercial soft aluminum and has survived 750 flying hours over a period of 35 years. The picture was taken on November 15, 2000---the thirtieth anniversary of its first flight. The engine is a Continental C 85. The upper cowl is made of three pieces: top center portion and two sides. The lower cowl is a single piece of sheet aluminum, with a segment below the propeller cut out and the resulting lap joint riveted together. The only compound curvature is in the top center piece which was made by hammer, sand bag and dolly. If I were to do it again, I'd extend this compound curvature further aft to minimize the "break" in the upper cowl line at the firewall. Otherwise, I'd change nothing in the basic design and construction. This cowling is light in weight and relatively easy to make. Construction paper was used for a "mockup". Patterns were made and then transferred to the sheet metal. If anyone is interested, I can perhaps find a more detailed photo and maybe cobble together a sketch of its construction. Graham Hansen Mail0008.JPG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Lee
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Would that be Lee Stenson? I don't have contact info. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Lee Hey, does anyone know the last name of Lee ? He's the guy from Brodhead, that sells the really nice Polo shirts, with your N number on them. Maybe even an e-mail address ? Chuck G. NX770CG p.s. going to be in the high 60's today in Wichita !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Lee
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Lee Stenson - (608) 897-4000 - N2463 Brodhead Airpt Rd, Brodhead, WI 53520 ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Lee Would that be Lee Stenson? I don't have contact info. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Lee Hey, does anyone know the last name of Lee ? He's the guy from Brodhead, that sells the really nice Polo shirts, with your N number on them. Maybe even an e-mail address ? Chuck G. NX770CG p.s. going to be in the high 60's today in Wichita !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Lyscars" <alyscars(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling.
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Graham, Could you please send along any pics/diagrams you have direct? Thanks, Alan Lyscars ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Thomas To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling. ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Hansen To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling. Group, This cowling is made from .032" commercial soft aluminum and has survived 750 flying hours over a period of 35 years. The picture was taken on November 15, 2000---the thirtieth anniversary of its first flight. The engine is a Continental C 85. The upper cowl is made of three pieces: top center portion and two sides. The lower cowl is a single piece of sheet aluminum, with a segment below the propeller cut out and the resulting lap joint riveted together. The only compound curvature is in the top center piece which was made by hammer, sand bag and dolly. If I were to do it again, I'd extend this compound curvature further aft to minimize the "break" in the upper cowl line at the firewall. Otherwise, I'd change nothing in the basic design and construction. This cowling is light in weight and relatively easy to make. Construction paper was used for a "mockup". Patterns were made and then transferred to the sheet metal. If anyone is interested, I can perhaps find a more detailed photo and maybe cobble together a sketch of its construction. Graham Hansen Mail0008.JPG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Seat belts and harnesses
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Chris asks- >If 41CC has shoulder belts, any idea why the pilot hit the instrument >panel? I believe the belts were not as snug as they should have been. I've tried it myself, sitting in the cockpit, and if I don't cinch them down fairly well I can lean forward far enough for my head to get close. I'm sure that in a sudden stop, things get stretched forward enough that they can make contact. The Piet cockpit is not huge by any means. In the world of computer technicians, there is what they call "PEBCAK error" ("problem exists between chair and keyboard"); aka "user error". I'm sure there is a parallel n the Piet world, maybe "PEBSAS", or "problem exists between seat and stick" ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling.
Date: Jan 15, 2006
To Alan Lyscars, Please send me your E-mail address so that I can respond directly to your request. Graham Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2006
From: "Scott S." <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: transportability
Upon covering the 3-piece wing, do you essentially end up with a one piece wing? I'm trying to get a handle on transportability...not that you could tow it to the airport and attach the wings every time you wanted to fly; I know it's more involved than that. Just seems it would be convenient to have detachable wings, even if it took 3-4 hours to attach them. It would open up some options to a guy like me who's not liking the idea of $150 (or more!) hangar fees every month, not to mention the lengthy waiting list for hangar space at my local airport. Appreciate you guys indulging my ignorance on this stuff. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: transportability
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Not practical at all, removing wings and hauling it home, then hauling it back to the airport. But if you want to design a trailer for hauling an aircamper, mine has hauled three from Gerogia to Texas, Arizona to Texas and Kansas to Texas... plus several other airplanes... Copy my trailer, here is a picture. For $150 a month in hanger fees, heck, you can buy acreage in Texas and build your own airport/hanger! Sterling Brooks Knot-2-Shabby Airport & Texas Longhorn Cattle Ranch 5TA6 San Antonio Sectional ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott S. To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: transportability Upon covering the 3-piece wing, do you essentially end up with a one piece wing? I'm trying to get a handle on transportability...not that you could tow it to the airport and attach the wings every time you wanted to fly; I know it's more involved than that. Just seems it would be convenient to have detachable wings, even if it took 3-4 hours to attach them. It would open up some options to a guy like me who's not liking the idea of $150 (or more!) hangar fees every month, not to mention the lengthy waiting list for hangar space at my local airport. Appreciate you guys indulging my ignorance on this stuff. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Lyscars" <alyscars(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling.
Date: Jan 15, 2006
Thanks, Graham, My email is alyscars(at)maine.rr.com Yours! ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Hansen To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling. To Alan Lyscars, Please send me your E-mail address so that I can respond directly to your request. Graham Hansen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re:Sitka spruce availability
From: "Matt Naiva" <corvaircoupe(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 15, 2006
I have not done business with public lumber but if you ordered a couple of 2x6 x20 foot boards I am sure you could manage 1.6 Piets of so. Have three long boards shipped to your home for about $425 total. A Pietenpol is a bird of tradition, enjoy the process! Bernie himself had nice local wood 2x4 and 2x6 of spuce and western hemlock, he cut them up himself and built a great Airplane. While the good stuff is not available locally building 1.6 or so Piets for $400ish is not all that bad! Get yorrself a thin cerf blade and you could probably build two! http://www.publiclumber.com/aasitsprucve.html As always you must grade the wood yourself in the end. Shipping at 14 feet requires a truck and gets expensive so buy enough for two piets and share the cost! You must buy the whole length of the board. Seemed like reasonable people on the phone not afraid to talk airplane use but I don't think they will "certify" anything. Neither will Aircraft spruce! You are buying the experince thier mill workers have sorting for the aircraft industry. Western Aircraft in Canada sells a premium kit of first class stock milled to dimension for a Piet as well as planks. They ship everthing Airmail and I am told it always arrives in good shape. Roughly $120 airfreight. http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Sources/WesternAircraft.html Since I live in Wisconsin I am sorry to hear McCormick is getting so pricy! http://www.mccormicklumber.com/sitka-spruce.htm May your sawdust eventaully be carried aloft and catch a good tail wind! Lets all get out to the shop an remove the parts of the wood that don't look like an airplane! Matt Formerly posted under steamlaunch(at)softhome.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4295#4295 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: update on Flycorvair.com website
Date: Jan 16, 2006
William has posted an update to his website, at http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html . The new engine disassembly videos are now available and he has also announced two additional ones now in production. Also included are updates on back-ordered parts. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: "The nose knows" Pietenpol cowling.
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2006
All the inquiries about noses and cowlings spurred me to finish the drawing of mine (cowling that is). Mind you the drawings are reversed engineered from the cowling that I made from sketches on my workbench. Drawing is are listed in Mykitplane .com file section. Or copy link to address bar: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/fileslist2.cfm?AlbumID=74 Pictures and a description at: http://www.hometown.aol.com/hvandervoo/indexfront.html Hans NX 15KV, Waller, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph" <ralphhsd(at)itctel.com>
Subject: Re: transportability
Date: Jan 16, 2006
A number of years ago an article in the PBA newsletter had an article about a builder in England who had developed a set of hinges for folding a Pietenpol. It might be something to check into. Carol and Ralph Raymond ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: serious information for Corvair builders
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Those who are building or flying Corvair engines should read William's latest technical report on the crankshaft, at http://www.flycorvair.com/crankissues.html It's long and the news isn't great, but if you're planning to fly behind a Corvair, better take a look. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol questions
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2006
John, 1. I have rebuild engines before ( two car engines) thus I was not to worried about my capabilities. But the Corvair is a experimental engine (for airplanes) and as such you should respect that. Every flight I always listen for abnormal sounds. Rebuilding the engine is not difficult, many books are written about it and it can be done by a novice. Most trouble I had was with the ancillary equipment, Electrical system, Carburetor, fuel system, Airfilter, heat box and muffler. Limited material is available on this and you're own creative engineering needs to be applied. I am comfortable with the Corvair engine (at least as comfortable I would be with Continetal or Lycoming) Most engine trouble starts with the ancillary equipment, a heat box that does not work properly or a fuel system that has a fault. It is rarely the engine it self. 2. Bought the following from AS&S: (Embedded image moved to file: pic26777.jpg) I did not make a fiberglass fuel tank, I originally had a 12 Gallon Aluminum Fuel tank in the center section with a 2 gallon header tank in the nose. I have now a 12 Gallon Fuel tank in the nose, found out a Piper J3 tank fits in the long fuselage. I still have the 12 Gallon Tank in the center section but will remove this eventually. Best regards Hans John Egan To hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com 01/16/2006 08:39 cc AM Subject Pietenpol questions Hans, I like your Piet a lot Hans. You did a great job. I'm in the building process, and I would like to ask you a couple of questions if I may. 1. I see onyour web site, you mention that you built up your Corvair yourself. I am thinking about that (building mine), however I have never rebuilt an engine. Do you believe this is an area that an ameture can tackle? I have bought the Wyme conversion manual, and most of his video tapes, but it seems to make like a very challenging task. Seems high risk to me. 2. Could you list the materials you used to make the fiberglass section of your nose? Did you make a fiberglass fuel tank? Thank you. I hope I'm not bothering you. john Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Jim, I would fill the center to avoid crushing the strut but not for the negative G's Negative G loads are not an issue for a Pietenpol struts, theoretically they handle 7 G's positive and probably 3+ negative. I did some calculations once, but it is so over engineered it can stand many times normal flight (non Aerobatic) maneuvers Which brings up an question I have asked myself many times. Has anyone ever done a successful Roll or Loop in a Aircamper? Not that I am going to try, just like to know. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
I see you use the Skytek struts. Why not insert a solid piece of 2024 aluminum like I did? something to consider ( and you probably know this already, but just in case) is you will want to prime the steel piece with zinc chromate. don't want aluminum touching steel or you get dissimilar metal corrosion issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Thanks Hans, Yes, I have a spacer/bushing in there but it's hard to see in the pic. Thanks! JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Vander Voort" <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... > > > Jim, > > I would fill the center to avoid crushing the strut but not for the > negative G's > > Negative G loads are not an issue for a Pietenpol struts, theoretically > they handle 7 G's positive and probably 3+ negative. > I did some calculations once, but it is so over engineered it can stand > many times normal flight (non Aerobatic) maneuvers > > Which brings up an question I have asked myself many times. > Has anyone ever done a successful Roll or Loop in a Aircamper? > > Not that I am going to try, just like to know. > > Hans > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Thanks DJ! I thought about using 3/4" sq bar and actually ordered some. I just didn't like the looks of it as much as this design, partly because my spars are 1" wide on the top and bottom and this fills up the 1" gap between the fittings. I didn't much care for the gap that the 3/4" square bar left. I'm sure both would work fine though. I'm going to sand blast and powsercoat the fittings. Let me know if you (or anyone) feels that zinc chromate will give me some protection that powdercoating would not. I can do either! Thanks again, jm ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... I see you use the Skytek struts. Why not insert a solid piece of 2024 aluminum like I did? something to consider ( and you probably know this already, but just in case) is you will want to prime the steel piece with zinc chromate. don't want aluminum touching steel or you get dissimilar metal corrosion issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2006
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
I think it looks great. If I understand this, you have weld running lengthwise on the inside portion of the bend where the bushing and strap merge, so you effectively have a cross section of weld about the same thickness as the strap itself, would indicates to me that the strap has the same opportunity to fail as the weld has. Maybe a spacer between the straps will be handy to prevent over tightening and distortion of the strut material. Makes me want to build struts now... Jim Markle wrote: Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
I think powdercoating would be fine just remember to make the tolerances loose on the fitting because the powdercoat adds quite a bit of thickness. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Thanks DJ! I thought about using 3/4" sq bar and actually ordered some. I just didn't like the looks of it as much as this design, partly because my spars are 1" wide on the top and bottom and this fills up the 1" gap between the fittings. I didn't much care for the gap that the 3/4" square bar left. I'm sure both would work fine though. I'm going to sand blast and powsercoat the fittings. Let me know if you (or anyone) feels that zinc chromate will give me some protection that powdercoating would not. I can do either! Thanks again, jm ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... I see you use the Skytek struts. Why not insert a solid piece of 2024 aluminum like I did? something to consider ( and you probably know this already, but just in case) is you will want to prime the steel piece with zinc chromate. don't want aluminum touching steel or you get dissimilar metal corrosion issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Hey Jim, I would prefer to see the strap bent completely around the bushing and then welded. The only thing supporting your wing under negative loading is a weld that has been ground down. You might want to re-think this fitting. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Jim: Avid Aircraft and Kitfox used powder coating effectively to prevent dissimilar metal corrosion between 4130 and aluminum at the junctures where the lift strut structure attached to the alumunim spar. The thickness of the powder coating ensures that the two different metals will never touch. From my experience, zinc chromate is thin and doesn't have enough solids-build-up to effectively separate the two different metals. Sterling ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... I think powdercoating would be fine just remember to make the tolerances loose on the fitting because the powdercoat adds quite a bit of thickness. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Thanks DJ! I thought about using 3/4" sq bar and actually ordered some. I just didn't like the looks of it as much as this design, partly because my spars are 1" wide on the top and bottom and this fills up the 1" gap between the fittings. I didn't much care for the gap that the 3/4" square bar left. I'm sure both would work fine though. I'm going to sand blast and powsercoat the fittings. Let me know if you (or anyone) feels that zinc chromate will give me some protection that powdercoating would not. I can do either! Thanks again, jm ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... I see you use the Skytek struts. Why not insert a solid piece of 2024 aluminum like I did? something to consider ( and you probably know this already, but just in case) is you will want to prime the steel piece with zinc chromate. don't want aluminum touching steel or you get dissimilar metal corrosion issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re:Sitka spruce availability
Date: Jan 16, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Has anyone on the list done business with Public Lumber? I called and they seemed very knowledgeable. They thought shipping from Detroit to Des Moines would be around $180. Thanks, Jack I have not done business with public lumber but if you ordered a couple of 2x6 x20 foot boards I am sure you could manage 1.6 Piets of so. Have three long boards shipped to your home for about $425 total. A Pietenpol is a bird of tradition, enjoy the process! Bernie himself had nice local wood 2x4 and 2x6 of spuce and western hemlock, he cut them up himself and built a great Airplane. While the good stuff is not available locally building 1.6 or so Piets for $400ish is not all that bad! Get yorrself a thin cerf blade and you could probably build two! http://www.publiclumber.com/aasitsprucve.html As always you must grade the wood yourself in the end. Shipping at 14 feet requires a truck and gets expensive so buy enough for two piets and share the cost! You must buy the whole length of the board. Seemed like reasonable people on the phone not afraid to talk airplane use but I don't think they will "certify" anything. Neither will Aircraft spruce! You are buying the experince thier mill workers have sorting for the aircraft industry. Western Aircraft in Canada sells a premium kit of first class stock milled to dimension for a Piet as well as planks. They ship everthing Airmail and I am told it always arrives in good shape. Roughly $120 airfreight. http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Sources/WesternAircraft.html Since I live in Wisconsin I am sorry to hear McCormick is getting so pricy! http://www.mccormicklumber.com/sitka-spruce.htm May your sawdust eventaully be carried aloft and catch a good tail wind! Lets all get out to the shop an remove the parts of the wood that don't look like an airplane! Matt Formerly posted under steamlaunch(at)softhome.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4295#4295 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 17, 2006
Hi Guys, I use solid 4140 steel bar. Check out HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com. Go to page 10 of the builder=92s photographs, about half way down the page (IMG_1057.jpg). All fittings yet to be powder coated. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Tuesday, 17 January 2006 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Thanks DJ! I thought about using 3/4" sq bar and actually ordered some. I just didn't like the looks of it as much as this design, partly because my spars are 1" wide on the top and bottom and this fills up the 1" gap between the fittings. I didn't much care for the gap that the 3/4" square bar left. I'm sure both would work fine though. I'm going to sand blast and powsercoat the fittings. Let me know if you (or anyone) feels that zinc chromate will give me some protection that powdercoating would not. I can do either! Thanks again, jm ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:djv(at)imagedv.com"DJ Vegh "mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com"pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... I see you use the Skytek struts. Why not insert a solid piece of 2024 aluminum like I did? something to consider ( and you probably know this already, but just in case) is you will want to prime the steel piece with zinc chromate. don't want aluminum touching steel or you get dissimilar metal corrosion issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:jim_markle(at)mindspring.com"Jim Markle "mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com"pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano -- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MICHAEL SILVIUS" <M.Silvius(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Not necessarily applying to this thread, but of interest when talking about aluminum corrosion and prevention there of, has anyone heard of doing your own anodizing? Looks like it can be done at home as shown here by Ed Barros. Lacking any one who can do it for him commercially in Argentina he does his own. Rather creative I say. http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ on the left hand menu scroll down to "ANODIZADO" perhaps using bablefish translator http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn may help for the ones not fluent in Spanish. Michael Silvius Scarborough, Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: Sterling Jim: Avid Aircraft and Kitfox used powder coating effectively to prevent dissimilar metal corrosion between 4130 and aluminum at the junctures where the lift strut structure attached to the alumunim spar. The thickness of the powder coating ensures that the two different metals will never touch. From my experience, zinc chromate is thin and doesn't have enough solids-build-up to effectively separate the two different metals. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Interested in the Smoke....
Members of the list serve: I am seeking some information as to the set-up and design of smoke systems. I have no idea what liquid is used to create smoke nor do I know the location of the liquid port into the exhaust(s) make smoke. I am seeking information for future reference and extra-curricular activities to gather necessary parts needed.....(here I come salvage yard...whoopie!) I have though of finding a windshield wiper fluid container that hold a gallon of fluid and carefully stow it inside the fuse with a button on the dash and a filler neck with cap to the outside for ease of filling. For instance, My Honda Element has a nice compact 1 gallon fluid container with pump which could be stowed within the plane and controlled with a push-to-talk button located on the stick. Has this been done before? What are other people using for their smoke system? Am I just out in left field? Ken Fargo, ND --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: Interested in the Smoke....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Chuck and Mike are the experts and they can provide pictures. Chuck uses Baby Oil purchased at Walmart. Chuck, by the way, is one of the best smelling Aircamper pilots I have ever met. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth M. Heide To: Pietenpol Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 6:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Interested in the Smoke.... Members of the list serve: I am seeking some information as to the set-up and design of smoke systems. I have no idea what liquid is used to create smoke nor do I know the location of the liquid port into the exhaust(s) make smoke. I am seeking information for future reference and extra-curricular activities to gather necessary parts needed.....(here I come salvage yard...whoopie!) I have though of finding a windshield wiper fluid container that hold a gallon of fluid and carefully stow it inside the fuse with a button on the dash and a filler neck with cap to the outside for ease of filling. For instance, My Honda Element has a nice compact 1 gallon fluid container with pump which could be stowed within the plane and controlled with a push-to-talk button located on the stick. Has this been done before? What are other people using for their smoke system? Am I just out in left field? Ken Fargo, ND Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net
Subject: Ribstitching - Don't Do What I Did
Date: Jan 17, 2006
Fellow Piet Builders I very carefully measured the spacing for the ribstitches on my wings, allowing the proper distance between stitches in the propwash area and outside the propwash area. Once everything was assembled I discovered that in the area outside the propwash, there is a row of stitches are right along the rear face of the rear spar. They are right where they will be chafed by the aileron cables, and undoubtedly worn through. This probably would not pose any major structural harm to the airfoil, but I am going to add stitches through the finished wing fabric which will not look all that nice. Be aware of this issue when you are covering your wings. Bob Humbert N491RH Battle Creek, MI. Fellow Piet Builders I very carefully measured the spacingforthe ribstitches on my wings, allowing the proper distance between stitches in the propwash area and outside the propwash area. Once everything was assembled I discovered that in the area outside the propwash,there is a row ofstitches are right along the rear face of the rear spar. They are right where they will be chafed by the aileron cables, and undoubtedly worn through. This probably would not pose any major structural harm to the airfoil, but I am going to add stitches through the finished wing fabric which will not look all that nice. Be aware of this issue when you are covering your wings. Bob Humbert N491RH Battle Creek, MI. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Subject: Re: Interested in the Smoke....
In a message dated 1/16/2006 6:31:36 PM Central Standard Time, kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com writes: I am seeking some information as to the set-up and design of smoke systems. I have no idea what liquid is used to create smoke nor do I know the location of the liquid port into the exhaust(s) make smoke. I am seeking information for future reference and extra-curricular activities to gather necessary parts needed.....(here I come salvage yard...whoopie!) I have though of finding a windshield wiper fluid container that hold a gallon of fluid and carefully stow it inside the fuse with a button on the dash and a filler neck with cap to the outside for ease of filling. For instance, My Honda Element has a nice compact 1 gallon fluid container with pump which could be stowed within the plane and controlled with a push-to-talk button located on the stick. Has this been done before? What are other people using for their smoke system? Am I just out in left field? Ken Fargo, ND Ken, Ya wanna talk about smoke ?? Lets talk about smoke !! My smoke system consists of an after-market windshield washer pump and tank, plumbing to each exhaust pipe, and wiring to the switch on the power lever. I isolated / mounted the tank on the upper left motor mount tubing, with a couple layers of rubber strap. I routed the clear tubing to a Tee fitting secured in rubber, to the engine mount, then used 1/8" brass tubing to each of the fittings in the exhaust pipes. I laid out the route of the tubing, marked the pipes, and removed both exhaust pipes. I cut a 1/8" pipe coupler in half, radiused each half to the radius of the pipe, and oxy / accy welded them to the aft pipe of each side. After welded, I drilled one #60 hole through the exhaust pipes. I placed these holes toward the bottom edge of the fittings, theorizing that if oil would lay in there it would gum up. The switch is a push on / push off button, that is mounted right to the throttle handle. This location allows me to work the smoke without taking my hand off the throttle. I originally thought it would only smoke good at full power, but came to find I don't need much over 1/4 throttle to Smoke 'Em Up !! I can smoke 'em while taxiing, without any problem !! My exhaust pipes point down and away from the fuselage, and even when all the oil doesn't vaporize, the fuselage hardly gets anything on it. I have a couple of squawks on the system, that I have taken care of. 1.) I mounted the tank at about the same level as the fittings on the exhaust pipes, and it always dribbles out the pipes, with a little bit of smoke as a result. Over a period of a couple of hours, it will drain the tank, but I usually 'Smoke em up' before that happens. 2.) When I ran the tank empty, and refill it, the pump would cavitate because of the way the line ran from the bottom of the tank to the pump, and I would always have to prime the pump, by blowing in the top of the tank. I got some strange looks from folks, while I performed this operation !! 3.) The tank was too small. It only was big enough to do about 3 smoke runs. I would like to put about a 5 gallon bucket up there on the firewall, but I don't have enough room !! 4.) I had to remove the top cowling to re-fill the tank. I'm building a new tank out of fiberglass / West System resin, with a fill tube out to the right side of the cowling. I'll mount it lower on the firewall. This will take care of all the squawks. 5.) I now have been using the new smoke tank, but I have a small leak in the tank. I used West Systems resin for the fiberglass tank, and evidently I didn't get the seam sealed up good enough. I've never had that problem when I used polyester resin, but it kicks very quickly. The West System gives some time, but it is also quite a bit more expensive. After the warnings about the stuff catching on fire, I'll be repairing the tank before my next flight. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 16, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
All, Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! Jack Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Redesign of..... upper lift strut fitting....
Date: Jan 16, 2006
Ok, so I did rethink this fitting! Thanks to all for the great help with thinking this through. Attached is what I ended up with. (I made the pictures as small as possible to avoid any inconvenience to the bandwidth challenged....) The wings will give out long before this fitting will! Jim in Plano..... ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Hey Jim, I would prefer to see the strap bent completely around the bushing and then welded. The only thing supporting your wing under negative loading is a weld that has been ground down. You might want to re-think this fitting. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suggestions on upper lift strut fitting.... Here's a pic of my upper lift strut fitting. I'm going to have my Tech Counselor check it but wondered if anyone on the list might help me out.... The inner bushing is 5/16ID X 1/2"OD with a .090 strap wrapped around it. And I welded where the inner bushing contacts the strap. My question is: Although this is plenty for a positive G wing load, is the weld enough to keep the strap piece connected to the inner bushing piece in a Negative G load? I've been thinking about welding a piece of 090 in between the straps, up against the bushing to keep it in place in case of a Negative G situation, but wonder if it's worth the trouble. Suggestions? Jim in Plano ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2006
From: Gene Hubbard <enhubbard(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Loops and rolls
I have seen a barrel roll done by a Grega. Not that I intend to try either. Airframe assembled and engine on. Doing final assembly on what will be NX421GN! Gene Hans Vander Voort wrote: > >Jim, > >I would fill the center to avoid crushing the strut but not for the >negative G's > >Negative G loads are not an issue for a Pietenpol struts, theoretically >they handle 7 G's positive and probably 3+ negative. >I did some calculations once, but it is so over engineered it can stand >many times normal flight (non Aerobatic) maneuvers > >Which brings up an question I have asked myself many times. >Has anyone ever done a successful Roll or Loop in a Aircamper? > >Not that I am going to try, just like to know. > >Hans > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Interested in the Smoke....
Date: Jan 17, 2006
You want to know about smoke? Check with Michael Cuy NX48MC. Buy his video on the building and flying his Piet. Very informative. He has smoke. He has a plastic pressure sprayer bottle in his cockpit. You can watch him pumping furiously while flying with a video camera strapped to one of the struts pointing back at him. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 17, 2006
I don't remember who you were going to order thru so lets review all options. 3/4 with ply caps strips would be fine, but a lot of work. McCormack in Madison should have full cut 1x6 pieces in stock. Wicks Aircraft in Highland, Il. (near St. Louis) should have it Aircraft Spruce, of course. Wayne at Midwest Marine Plywood in Eagan, Mn. should have full cut 2x6 sections. Two of those places are within 2 1/2 hours drive of you. Is there a reason you spec 2"x? The wood I have purchased in the past from McCormack has been over 1" rough cut and I have gotten 7/8 or better finished. The 2"x that I have gotten from Midwest Marine Plywood have been 2 1/16" or better. It's a lot of work milling it down. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions All, Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! Jack Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 17, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Well Dick, as I said, I'm driving myself nuts. I planned to buy rough 2x6x16's from Public Lumber in Detroit at $5.80 LF. They are out of that and their price on 2x8x16's jumps to $10.27. I have looked at the selection at McCormick's and didn't see anything I would be happy with for spars. I appreciate the lead on Midwest, I will call them. After comments I received off-line I'm leaning towards =BE" stock for the spars. Thanks again! Jack ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions I don't remember who you were going to order thru so lets review all options. 3/4 with ply caps strips would be fine, but a lot of work. McCormack in Madison should have full cut 1x6 pieces in stock. Wicks Aircraft in Highland, Il. (near St. Louis) should have it Aircraft Spruce, of course. Wayne at Midwest Marine Plywood in Eagan, Mn. should have full cut 2x6 sections. Two of those places are within 2 1/2 hours drive of you. Is there a reason you spec 2"x? The wood I have purchased in the past from McCormack has been over 1" rough cut and I have gotten 7/8 or better finished. The 2"x that I have gotten from Midwest Marine Plywood have been 2 1/16" or better. It's a lot of work milling it down. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor <mailto:jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions All, Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! Jack Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2006
From: <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Wing spar questions
Cc: "Jack T. Textor" Hi Jack, Bear in mind that I'm just getting started but as I interpret the VJ Kapler 3 Pc. wing plan, it specifies a 3/4" x 4 3/4" spar. I'm building my rib jig based on those dimensions. I ordered the wing capstrip and a 6' piece of the 4 3/4" x 3/4 to test fit the ribs I produce and then store them on that (which will eventually become the center section of spar. I plan on ordering the rest of the spar material when the ribs are done. The said the spar material is finished 4 sides and is exact. ...so the piece I have should be the same as what I plan to order later. Also, from what I can tell, orders for wider dimensions of wood from places like Aircraft Spruce (where I ordered my Sitka Spruce) are harder to fill. Is there are reason to get it 6" wide? I just ordered the exact dimensions that I need. I hope I'm not missing anything. If I am could somebody let me know? Thanks, Glenn Thomas ---- "Jack T. Textor" wrote: > I planned to buy rough 2x6x16's from Public Lumber in Detroit at $5.80 LF. >They are out of that and their price on 2x8x16's jumps to $10.27. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2006
From: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Wing spar questions
Pawnee Lumber company in, where else, Pawnee, Illinois....sells "aircraft grade lumber". since i did not need to purchase spars, i have not ideas as to their prices. I do know, however, that some "aircraft kit builder in Missouri", buys all of his lumber from these guys. Here is their phone number, best of results... 217.625-2771, "Mean" Gene, GN-1, NX5893 (in stages of construction, with Corvair power, wing and fuselage on gear) -----Original Message----- >From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> >Sent: Jan 17, 2006 2:59 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > >Well Dick, as I said, I'm driving myself nuts. I planned to buy rough 2x6x16's from Public Lumber in Detroit at $5.80 LF. They are out of that and their price on 2x8x16's jumps to $10.27. I have looked at the selection at McCormick's and didn't see anything I would be happy with for spars. I appreciate the lead on Midwest, I will call them. After comments I received off-line I'm leaning towards " stock for the spars. Thanks again! > >Jack > > > > > >________________________________ > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:28 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > > > >I don't remember who you were going to order thru so lets review all options. 3/4 with ply caps strips would be fine, but a lot of work. > >McCormack in Madison should have full cut 1x6 pieces in stock. > >Wicks Aircraft in Highland, Il. (near St. Louis) should have it > >Aircraft Spruce, of course. > >Wayne at Midwest Marine Plywood in Eagan, Mn. should have full cut 2x6 sections. > >Two of those places are within 2 1/2 hours drive of you. > >Is there a reason you spec 2"x? The wood I have purchased in the past from McCormack has been over 1" rough cut and I have gotten 7/8 or better finished. The 2"x that I have gotten from Midwest Marine Plywood have been 2 1/16" or better. It's a lot of work milling it down. > >Dick N. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jack T. Textor <mailto:jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:46 PM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > > > > All, > > Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! > > Jack > > > > Jack Textor > > Vice President > > Palmer Group > > 515-225-7000 > > www.thepalmergroup.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Laminated wing spars
Date: Jan 17, 2006
If anyone's interested, Steen Aero Lab will custom-build a set of vacuum-formed, laminated spars to your specs... they can build spar "blanks" as well if you want to do the final shaping. 25%+ stronger than the equivalent solid spar and very resistant to warpage, and no weight gain. Also less likely to have hidden defects. If you're a little uneasy about going to 3/4" spars, you might consider going with laminated spars to make sure the full strength is there. http://www.steenaero.com/Components/wing_laminated_spars.cfm (Obligatory disclaimer... I work at SAL :) -Mike Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2006
From: n925wb1(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol List: Excellent Quality R/C Model Piet
I don't know if many of you on the list have had the opportunity to see some of the stunning work coming out of the radio-controlled community lately. Suffice it to say there are some very talented modelers out there! Here is a link to a fellow who has built an exquisite model of G-ECVB, right down the the Model A (although I believe the full-scale G-ECVB flies on a flat-four). Regardless, this is an impressive model with a 57" wingspan. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462847 I hope everyone enjoys. -Wayne ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv(at)imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol List: Excellent Quality R/C Model Piet
Date: Jan 17, 2006
wow... just looked at the thread an noticed he referenced my website. funny how the tangled web of the internet makes its rounds. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: n925wb1(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol List: Excellent Quality R/C Model Piet I don't know if many of you on the list have had the opportunity to see some of the stunning work coming out of the radio-controlled community lately. Suffice it to say there are some very talented modelers out there! Here is a link to a fellow who has built an exquisite model of G-ECVB, right down the the Model A (although I believe the full-scale G-ECVB flies on a flat-four). Regardless, this is an impressive model with a 57" wingspan. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D462847 I hope everyone enjoys. -Wayne ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 17, 2006
Why not use 3/4 inch spars and add a 1x1/8 spruce to the front and back to make up an I-beam and make the thickness 1 inch. I would think fully facing the spars with ply would be to much of a weight penalty. Likewise, does anyone know if the 3/4" spars BHP used were routed? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions All, Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! Jack Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: transportability
No you have two pieces which are on either side of the centre piece and a piece in the middle ,all separate.In the centre section you can either cut a piece out in order to get in or in my case I built a thing called a flop door or as my AME likes to call it ,a pilot eggress door. "Scott S." wrote: > > Upon covering the 3-piece wing, do you essentially end up with a one > piece wing? I'm trying to get a handle on transportability...not that > you could tow it to the airport and attach the wings every time you > wanted to fly; I know it's more involved than that. Just seems it > would be convenient to have detachable wings, even if it took 3-4 > hours to attach them. It would open up some options to a guy like me > who's not liking the idea of $150 (or more!) hangar fees every > month, not to mention the lengthy waiting list for hangar space at my > local airport. > > Appreciate you guys indulging my ignorance on this stuff. :-) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: any Piets in middle TN?
I have removed my home computor from any and all lists so there won't or shouldn't be any bounced messages in the future.I apologise for any inconvienance this has caused in the past.My home computor doesn't have the capacity for e-mails that my work computor has and all it takes is for a couple of my friends or relatives to send a letter with an attachment and it fills the e-mail box up real fast.I will still be on the Piet list at work to keep in touch with all this fantastic info!Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
3/4" spars are solid; not routed. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Catdesign To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions Why not use 3/4 inch spars and add a 1x1/8 spruce to the front and back to make up an I-beam and make the thickness 1 inch. I would think fully facing the spars with ply would be to much of a weight penalty. Likewise, does anyone know if the 3/4" spars BHP used were routed? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions All, Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! Jack Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Both my spars are =BE". I routed my rear spars down to =BD", per BHP. Saved 3.89 lbs in Sitka Spruce - would save more weight in Douglas Fir. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gcardinal Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions 3/4" spars are solid; not routed. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Catdesign <mailto:catdesign(at)intergate.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions Why not use 3/4 inch spars and add a 1x1/8 spruce to the front and back to make up an I-beam and make the thickness 1 inch. I would think fully facing the spars with ply would be to much of a weight penalty. Likewise, does anyone know if the 3/4" spars BHP used were routed? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor <mailto:jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions All, Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! Jack Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: spar idea--sketch attached
This is how I did the spar on my Air Camper. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: spar idea--sketch attached
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I think I would do the same, if I were to do it again, Mike Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: spar idea--sketch attached This is how I did the spar on my Air Camper. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: BHP and the Corvair crank
Date: Jan 18, 2006
Just thought I'd throw in a little levity for the day. I was trying to imagine how Mr. Pietenpol would take the news if, say, General Motors came out with a notice that the crankshaft in a Corvair should be nitrided to prevent fatigue-induced cracks. So here's where my mind went (thinking back to the old Flying & Glider Manuals). "Took an empty tractor grease pail and gave it a good cleaning, then put my Corvair crankshaft in and packed it in real full all around with cow manure from the feed-lot. Figured it would be pretty rich in nitrogen from the feed and clover the cows been eating. Put the lid on the drum, filled 'er with air from my compressor, and set 'er in the sun for a couple of days to let the nitrogen soak into the crankshaft. Other than a bit of ripeness when I opened the pail to retrieve the crank, everything was fine and I cleaned the crank, buttoned 'er back up and went flying. Don't believe GM would approve of the cow flop treatment, but I'm flying just the same." Back to repairs on NX41CC ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Wing spar questionsWing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
I purchased my (7) 1 x 6 x 20ft planks at McCormick Lumber with the help of Bill Rewey, known expert Pietenpol builder. We ran the planks through the planer at McCormick, just a light skin cut and ended up with very nice 1" thk. spar quality planks. Enough wood to build the whole plane. I cut all my rib strips, fuse longerons etc. on a 14"Delta bandsaw. I'm using West products epoxy throughout. A 1 qt. kit should be adequate to build the whole plane. Plywood gussets stapled on with an office paper stapler. Works on both 1/16" and 1/8" birch plywood. just press down. No need to "bang" it. A lot faster and easier than a million tiny brads. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: spar idea--sketch attached
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Mike, you did the 3 piece wing, correct? Did increasing the spar to 1" create any problems you can recall? Thanks, Jack Jack Textor Vice President This is how I did the spar on my Air Camper. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BHP and the Corvair crank
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 18, 2006
Thanks Oscar I needed that. I have now about 25 hours on my Corvair. When I rebuild it I decided not go with a nitrided crank, on advice of many experts, the non-nitrided was good enough. Goes to show you "good enough" is a term that should not be used in Aircraft building. So, now I am out hunting for Corvair parts again. Might already have located a rebuildable engine and will pick it up this weekend. I will use the crank after getting it up to AD compliance. Now all I need is that grease pail and some cow manure.....:-) Hans "Oscar Zuniga" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: BHP and the Corvair crank 01/18/2006 09:23 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Just thought I'd throw in a little levity for the day. I was trying to imagine how Mr. Pietenpol would take the news if, say, General Motors came out with a notice that the crankshaft in a Corvair should be nitrided to prevent fatigue-induced cracks. So here's where my mind went (thinking back to the old Flying & Glider Manuals). "Took an empty tractor grease pail and gave it a good cleaning, then put my Corvair crankshaft in and packed it in real full all around with cow manure from the feed-lot. Figured it would be pretty rich in nitrogen from the feed and clover the cows been eating. Put the lid on the drum, filled 'er with air from my compressor, and set 'er in the sun for a couple of days to let the nitrogen soak into the crankshaft. Other than a bit of ripeness when I opened the pail to retrieve the crank, everything was fine and I cleaned the crank, buttoned 'er back up and went flying. Don't believe GM would approve of the cow flop treatment, but I'm flying just the same." Back to repairs on NX41CC ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: spar idea--sketch attached
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
This is strange. Out of curiosity, I just checked Aircraft Spruce and Wicks for prices, to compare the cost of a built-up spar like your sketch, as opposed to a solid 3/4" spar. And there are savings of 25% to 35% to be had ... If you opt for the SOLID spar! Here's what I found: (These prices don't include the price premium for long lengths - they are just for comparison.) Wicks: 3/4" x 4 3/4" = $7.27/ft 1/2" x 4 3/4" = $8.22/ft (NOTE: this is 13% MORE than the 3/4" piece) 1/4" x 3/4" = $0.40/ft So the built-up spar = 8.22 + 4 x (0.40) = $9.82/ft (solid 1" x 4 3/4" = $9.07/ft) Aircraft Spruce: 3/4" x 4 3/4" = $6.70/ft 1/2" x 4 3/4" = $6.70/ft (NOTE: 1/4" x 3/4" = $0.43/ft So the built-up spar = 6.70 + 4 x (0.43) = $8.42/ft (solid 1" x 4 3/4" = $8.35/ft) This doesn't seem to make sense. Then you have to add the cost of the epoxy + the time to build-up the spars. I figured it would have to be cheaper to build up a spar, but I guess not. Of course, there are other routes to take other than buying pre-cut pieces from Wicks or AS&S, that may prove to be cheaper, but this is surprising. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Sent: January 18, 2006 8:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: spar idea--sketch attached This is how I did the spar on my Air Camper. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
If you had asked me yesterday, I would have said that the 3/4" spars are solid, not routed. But I just looked at the plans for the 3-piece wing and it only shows the spar thickness as 3/4" - yet it also gives the dimensions for routing. I assume that I read somewhere that the 3/4" spar is to be solid, not routed, but I don't see it on the plans anywhere. Did I miss something? If the 3/4" spar should not be routed, there really shouldn't be information on where to rout the spars on a drawing that only refers to a 3/4" spar, right? Anyone out there that has a definitive answer out there? Bill ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gcardinal Sent: January 18, 2006 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions 3/4" spars are solid; not routed. Greg Cardinal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Date: Jan 18, 2006
Subject: Re: BHP and the Corvair crank
I've got an extra crank if someone needs one. Private email me. Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 18, 2006
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
In a message dated 1/18/2006 12:55:05 AM Central Standard Time, catdesign(at)intergate.com writes: Why not use 3/4 inch spars and add a 1x1/8 spruce to the front and back to make up an I-beam and make the thickness 1 inch. I used 1/2" X 4 3/4" X 1/8" plywood shims on the fwd & aft face of the spar, at each rib location. I used T88 on everything. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 18, 2006
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
In a message dated 1/18/2006 12:37:43 PM Central Standard Time, eng(at)canadianrogers.com writes: Anyone out there that has a definitive answer out there? I don't know if there is a difinitive answer, because it's been done so many different ways. I used 3/4" Douglas Fir spars, un-routed. The inboard ribs are Spruce, and all others are Cedar. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: BHP and the Corvair crank
hey Tom, what is the part no. on it and how much are you asking? Gene -----Original Message----- >From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> >Sent: Jan 18, 2006 1:01 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BHP and the Corvair crank > > >I've got an extra crank if someone needs one. Private email me. > >Tom B. > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Gene, I talked with Pawnee today. They quoted me 99 to$1.10 per lf for 1x6 (actual size 3/4x51/2) clear cedar. Wow, to good to be true. He did say it was NOT vertical grain. I'm not sure that is the way to go. Next time I drive by I might stop for a look though. Will let all know how it looks. Jack ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Gene Beenenga Sent: Tue 1/17/2006 7:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions Pawnee Lumber company in, where else, Pawnee, Illinois....sells "aircraft grade lumber". since i did not need to purchase spars, i have not ideas as to their prices. I do know, however, that some "aircraft kit builder in Missouri", buys all of his lumber from these guys. Here is their phone number, best of results... 217.625-2771, "Mean" Gene, GN-1, NX5893 (in stages of construction, with Corvair power, wing and fuselage on gear) -----Original Message----- >From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> >Sent: Jan 17, 2006 2:59 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > >Well Dick, as I said, I'm driving myself nuts. I planned to buy rough 2x6x16's from Public Lumber in Detroit at $5.80 LF. They are out of that and their price on 2x8x16's jumps to $10.27. I have looked at the selection at McCormick's and didn't see anything I would be happy with for spars. I appreciate the lead on Midwest, I will call them. After comments I received off-line I'm leaning towards =BE" stock for the spars. Thanks again! > >Jack > > >________________________________ > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:28 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > > >I don't remember who you were going to order thru so lets review all options. 3/4 with ply caps strips would be fine, but a lot of work. > >McCormack in Madison should have full cut 1x6 pieces in stock. > >Wicks Aircraft in Highland, Il. (near St. Louis) should have it > >Aircraft Spruce, of course. > >Wayne at Midwest Marine Plywood in Eagan, Mn. should have full cut 2x6 sections. > >Two of those places are within 2 1/2 hours drive of you. > >Is there a reason you spec 2"x? The wood I have purchased in the past from McCormack has been over 1" rough cut and I have gotten 7/8 or better finished. The 2"x that I have gotten from Midwest Marine Plywood have been 2 1/16" or better. It's a lot of work milling it down. > >Dick N. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jack T. Textor <mailto:jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:46 PM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > > > > All, > > Even after reading the archives I would really appreciate you input on this one. I have built my ribs for the 1" spars. For strength I thought 1" would be best. Was getting ready to order wood for the spars and the supplier is out of 2" stock in 6" width. Also looked closer at Vi's 3 piece wing, I'm wondering if I should just go with 3/4 ". Another thought would be to use 3/4 " and sandwich it with 1/8 ply on each side. I'm driving myself nuts. Again, thanks for your thoughts! > > Jack > > > > Jack Textor > > Vice President > > Palmer Group > > 515-225-7000 > > www.thepalmergroup.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
I'm leaning that direction Chuck. Why not use 3/4 inch spars and add a 1x1/8 spruce to the front and back to make up an I-beam and make the thickness 1 inch. I used 1/2" X 4 3/4" X 1/8" plywood shims on the fwd & aft face of the spar, at each rib location. I used T88 on everything. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 18, 2006
I know that weight savings is a very good thing with any plane, but it seems to me like routing the spars down is just a bad idea with a potential to cause some real problems. With a routed spar, even if you don't affect the vertical bending strength, you do lose a good deal of the available strength in the fore-aft direction, and this could... potentially... reduce the tortional rigidity of the wing, and contribute to flutter. I know it's been done for a long time and I don't think it's caused tons of problems, but I do know of some planes in which routed spars are no longer recommended due to the potential risk to get a relatively tiny weight reduction. For no more than a 5 lbs. savings it seems like a bad place to reduce the strength of your airframe. Seems like you'd be better off saving weight by, say, cutting lightening holes in the ply on the sides of the fuselage. That being said, I know that many folks have done it with no problems... not suggesting anyone should be afraid of a Piet that's got routed spars. -Mike Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: [piet] RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions I'm leaning that direction Chuck. Why not use 3/4 inch spars and add a 1x1/8 spruce to the front and back to make up an I-beam and make the thickness 1 inch. I used 1/2" X 4 3/4" X 1/8" plywood shims on the fwd & aft face of the spar, at each rib location. I used T88 on everything. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2006
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
In a message dated 1/18/2006 7:16:10 PM Central Standard Time, jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com writes: He did say it was NOT vertical grain. Spars must be 1/4 sawn, or they warp. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2006
From: Mike Luther <luther(at)gci.net>
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
Hi guys, I had to remember where I came up with the idea I used on my spars. I found the information in the Pietenpol Manual in note 10 at the top of page 66. It says to use 1/8 inch plywood reinforcing plates on each side of the spar wherever fittings or ribs are located. In this case it would be for a solid 3/4 inch spar. Hope this info helps anyone. Mike Luther Bill Church wrote: > If you had asked me yesterday, I would have said that the 3/4" spars > are solid, not routed. > But I just looked at the plans for the 3-piece wing and it only shows > the spar thickness as 3/4" - yet it also gives the dimensions for > routing. > I assume that I read somewhere that the 3/4" spar is to be solid, not > routed, but I don't see it on the plans anywhere. Did I miss > something? If the 3/4" spar should not be routed, there really > shouldn't be information on where to rout the spars on a drawing that > only refers to a 3/4" spar, right? > Anyone out there that has a definitive answer out there? > Bill > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > gcardinal > Sent: January 18, 2006 8:15 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing spar questions > > 3/4" spars are solid; not routed. Greg Cardinal > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Turrell" <emtyit(at)3web.net>
Subject: Re: wing spar question
Date: Jan 19, 2006
In a message dated 1/18/2006 7:16:10 PM Central Standard Time, jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com writes: He did say it was NOT vertical grain. Spars must be 1/4 sawn, or they warp. Chuck G. NX770CG I have to disagree with you here Chuck and this is based soley on my own experience with wood.Generally speaking if a board is straight after kiln drying it will remain straight after sitting for years ,provided it is kept dry.Wood is usually kiln dried to 6% moisture content and when we get it and sit it in our shop it will pick up moisture and stabilize with its surrounding usually around 9 to 12 % moisture content and it will fluctuate between these figures but it will not suddenly develop stresses that want to warp it of its own accord.You can introduce a warp if you store it with a twist ,somthing like bending a cap strip after steaming it and then letting it dry.Different species of wood are kiln dried at different rates to prevent splits ,checking ,and warping.It's the rate of drying that is important.All bets are off if you store the wood where it is directly exposed to water with sun dry cycles in between.The sun suddenly drying a very wet board will introduce stresses that could either split,check or warp it,where previously it was a perfectly straight board. Where 1/4 sawn wood shines is in it's shrinkage and expantion ,which is very little as compared to flat sawn wood.It is very stable. Been working with wood for years as a cabinet maker and this has been my expierience which does not qualify me as a wood expert,just a wood observer,so if there is a wood expert in the house,let us hear from him. Kind regards,Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Wing spar questions
Date: Jan 19, 2006
FYI - Bill Rewey, noted expert on the Pietenpol, who built two of them, built his wing with 1" solid spars no routing. his current piet has been flying now for over 11 yrs. on a continental A65. It's travelled the equivalent of 1 1/4 times around the world. He's given rides to many people particularly wives of Piet builders, to show them how much fun they're going to have when finished. He's flown passengers as large as 240lb. My point is this. don't need to be so fussy about weight saving or rigidity of wing spars. 1" or 3/4". If built with Spruce or Spuce or Fir it'll be strong. The whole plane is over-engineered structurally. Ask William Wynne the "Corvair Authority". He had the opportunity to survive crashing his. But cedar?? They make yellow pencils outa cedar and people break them every day when they lose their cool. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wing spar question
Date: Jan 19, 2006
Hi Everybody. I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question about the spars. I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a builtup spar that has been designed for the wing. I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc. Thanks in advance. Steve G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: flying
Date: Jan 19, 2006
There's been some good chat on building lately, but with the winter weather is anybody getting any flying in? It's too cold around here and I have mine all torn down changing the axle and re-doing the fuel system. The weather must be good somewhere. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: flying
Date: Jan 19, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Unfortunately the weather is good here and mine is down with brake problems. I also have a crack in the exhaust system that I will need to repair. I'm taking tomorrow off to put new brake pads on and hopefully fly it. Raleigh is supposed to be 65 F tomorrow, with no wind. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: flying There's been some good chat on building lately, but with the winter weather is anybody getting any flying in? It's too cold around here and I have mine all torn down changing the axle and re-doing the fuel system. The weather must be good somewhere. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: flying
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2006
I have, flew even on new years day. Weather can be windy but when crosswind allows I'll be up. Temperatures are around 60 - 70 F in the Houston area, cold for most down here. Hans "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@ca rdinal.com> To Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: flying 01/19/2006 11:23 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Unfortunately the weather is good here and mine is down with brake problems. I also have a crack in the exhaust system that I will need to repair. Im taking tomorrow off to put new brake pads on and hopefully fly it. Raleigh is supposed to be 65 F tomorrow, with no wind. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:56 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: flying There's been some good chat on building lately, but with the winter weather is anybody getting any flying in? It's too cold around here and I have mine all torn down changing the axle and re-doing the fuel system. The weather must be good somewhere. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2006
Subject: Re: flying
In a message dated 1/19/2006 10:57:48 AM Central Standard Time, horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: There's been some good chat on building lately, but with the winter weather is anybody getting any flying in? It's too cold around here and I have mine all torn down changing the axle and re-doing the fuel system. The weather must be good somewhere. Dick N My prop is still on the work table, and I've still got to finish my new seat, and some other stuff. 59=BA and mild winds today. I've missed some great flying weather. :( Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: wing spar question
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Steve, Check out http://www.cpc-world.com and have a look at "Airframe Construction" > "Wings" > "Wing Spars". May give you an idea or two. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glass Sent: Friday, 20 January 2006 3:43 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question Hi Everybody. I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question about the spars. I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a builtup spar that has been designed for the wing. I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc. Thanks in advance. Steve G. -- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2006
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: flying
I've been up twice in my GN-1 this January, I'm hoping to go up again this weekend. I'm going to try to take some video while I'm flying, not sure how that will work out though. Steve Ruse N6383J - O44 Norman, OK Quoting Dick Navratil : > There's been some good chat on building lately, but with the winter > weather is anybody getting any flying in? It's too cold around here > and I have mine all torn down changing the axle and re-doing the fuel > system. The weather must be good somewhere. > Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fw: Loops and rolls
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2006
Anyone up for a Loop ? ----- Forwarded by Hans Vander Voort/GP/US/ALFALAVAL on 01/19/2006 05:23 PM ----- "Dan Wilson" To 01/19/2006 05:18 cc PM Subject Re: Loops and rolls Greetings ! Hans I just got off the phone with Vi Kapler from Rochester, MN. Vi knows more about the Piet than anyone else I have ever talked to. He worked along side Bernie for many years. I asked him the question about rolls and loops. He stated that the Piet should not be rolled under any circumstances. It is not stressed for this type of acrobatics. He did say however that the plane can be looped. He has done it. He also said that the Ford Model A has plenty enough power to loop the Piet. When I asked about the barrrel roll he simply stated that he would never attempt it. Please feel free to share this information with the piet family. Dan Dan Wilson Fire Chief Austin Fire Department ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Corvair Crank
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Date: Jan 19, 2006
I got hooked on the idea of the affordable Corvair motor and bought 2 of them, the William Wynne conversion manual and a couple of WW's videos and I visit his website a couple times a week. Then last week, he posted new information regarding nitrided crankshafts and I'm trying to find out if anyone knows if these stress fractures and cracks that he's found are ever found in an engine straight out of a car. I'd like to continue with the Corvair motor but his article states that the Embry-Riddle magnaflux machine he used to see the cracks revealed a lot more than the typical automotive magnaflux usually does. ...so my question is if I send him the best of my 2 to have the safety shaft installed and grinding, and nitriding, how do I know the shaft I'm sending is free of cracks, even if I get a clean bill of health from the place that will do my magnaflux on the 2 of them. This is one of those areas I don't know that much about and I'm hoping someone else does. If the cracks are something that appear only as a result of spinning a prop then I'll just have the crank I use nitrided. Anyone ever heard of a Corvair crankshaft failure (nitrided or otherwise?) Thanks, Glenn Thomas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5405#5405 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2006
From: Ron Franck <franck(at)geneseo.net>
Subject: Mike Cuy's Piet
For those of you with sharp eyes you may catch a glimpse of Mike Cuy's Piet at http://www.airventure.org/igottabethere/index.html Faster connect speeds a plus when loading the video clip. ------------------------------------------------ No Virus Found In This Message Scanned at barracuda.geneseo.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: Mike Cuy's Piet
Date: Jan 19, 2006
Daing... It's like "Where's Waldo" but I did see Mike's Piet... Just don't blink. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Franck" <franck(at)geneseo.net> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mike Cuy's Piet > > For those of you with sharp eyes you may catch a glimpse of Mike Cuy's > Piet at http://www.airventure.org/igottabethere/index.html > Faster connect speeds a plus when loading the video clip. > > ------------------------------------------------ > No Virus Found In This Message > Scanned at barracuda.geneseo.net > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: how much dope for wing?
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Hey guys, I am using old fashioned dope on my Piet. Does anyone have an idea of how much colored Butyrate I'll need for the wings and tail surfaces? My ceconite manual tells me I'l need about eight gallons for the whole plane, but it doesn't break it down. I'm assuming 75% of that would go on the wings and tails? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: how much dope for wing?
Douwe-- I used Randolph pigmented butyrate dope (thinned clear nitrate dope first.....then silver butyrate coats) and 8 gallons sounds just right. I got 5 gallons of white and 5 gallons of blue and used about 8 total gallons. I used non-taughtening dope with CAB thinner. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Corvair Crank
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Glenn, Crankshafts have failed in Corvair cars also. But this seems mostly on high HP racing applications. The airplane use of the Corvair engine will produce stress on a crankshaft not found in Cars. These stress issues are not unique to Corvair, Lycoming has had a number of AD lately related to crankshaft failures And these are purpose build airplane engines. It seems the stress cracks appear in the Corvair engine applications in KR 2 and Zenair 601, none are yet found in Pietenpol applications. But it seems no one has looked at Pietenpol crankshafts either. As flight profiles are different between KR2 and Pietenpol it is fair to assume the stress on the crank will be different to. There are a lot more Pietenpols flying with Corvair engines than KR2's and Zenair combined and a lot of them with 600+ hours and no Crank failures. I would like to see some, 200+ hour, Pietenpol corvair cranks evaluated. None the less I intend to get another crankshaft, and have it nitrated, it is cheap insurance. In the mean time I will fly my old crankshaft, I have only 25 hours on the engine and I am still within the 40 Hour test period. I believe as part of the service William Wynne provides, on modifying the crankshaft, a inspection (and nitrating) is included. But please check with him. Hans "Glenn Thomas" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Corvair Crank 01/19/2006 10:23 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com I got hooked on the idea of the affordable Corvair motor and bought 2 of them, the William Wynne conversion manual and a couple of WW's videos and I visit his website a couple times a week. Then last week, he posted new information regarding nitrided crankshafts and I'm trying to find out if anyone knows if these stress fractures and cracks that he's found are ever found in an engine straight out of a car. I'd like to continue with the Corvair motor but his article states that the Embry-Riddle magnaflux machine he used to see the cracks revealed a lot more than the typical automotive magnaflux usually does. ...so my question is if I send him the best of my 2 to have the safety shaft installed and grinding, and nitriding, how do I know the shaft I'm sending is free of cracks, even if I get a clean bill of health from the place that will do my magnaflux on the 2 of them. This is one of those areas I don't know that much about and I'm hoping someone else does. If the crack! s are something that appear only as a result of spinning a prop then I'll just have the crank I use nitrided. Anyone ever heard of a Corvair crankshaft failure (nitrided or otherwise?) Thanks, Glenn Thomas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5405#5405 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wing spar question
Date: Jan 20, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Steve, You might want to check out Jim Markle's well documented Piet project on Mykitplane. Jim has built his spars from marine ply and Douglas Fir. See it here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=52 Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glass Sent: January 19, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question --> Hi Everybody. I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question about the spars. I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a builtup spar that has been designed for the wing. I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc. Thanks in advance. Steve G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wing spar
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Routed Spars ? Bird Flue affecting the commercial airliners (Embedded image moved to file: pic00912.gif)[] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: hvlp sprayers
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Hey, I'm getting ready to start spraying dope and am looking at the hvlp systems because they use less material. I am wondering if the extra heat the turbine produces will cause problems with cooking off the thinner in the dope. also, it seems like there are hvlp guns that use a regular compressor instead of a turbine, which would then not be a problem ??? D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hvlp sprayers
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Douwe, I used a turbine HVLP system for spraying Poly-Fiber covering system. There is a temperature increase which will have the thinners evaporate quicker and leaving a dull(er) finish. (poly-fiber is not glossy to begin with) Recommend you extend to air hose with at least an additional 12 - 20 feet. This will give the air time to cool plus you have more reach. Hans "Douwe Blumberg" To Sent by: "pietenpolgroup" owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: hvlp sprayers 01/20/2006 02:24 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hey, I'm getting ready to start spraying dope and am looking at the hvlp systems because they use less material. I am wondering if the extra heat the turbine produces will cause problems with cooking off the thinner in the dope. also, it seems like there are hvlp guns that use a regular compressor instead of a turbine, which would then not be a problem ??? D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Turrell" <emtyit(at)3web.net>
Subject: Re: hvlp sprayers
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Hey, I'm getting ready to start spraying dope and am looking at the hvlp systems because they use less material. I am wondering if the extra heat the turbine produces will cause problems with cooking off the thinner in the dope. also, it seems like there are hvlp guns that use a regular compressor instead of a turbine, which would then not be a problem I have both and if you already have a compressor I would go with the hvlp spray gun as it is cheaper and works better than my turbine sprayer but then I only spent a couple hundred dollars for mine and a real good one will set you back $500 and up .My HVLP spray gun is a gravity feed unit and It does indeed save a ton of material compared to when I used a regular high pressure gun.I think it is worth getting a good name ,devilbiss or similar because if you buy some of the cheap ones you will find there is not much to them and rust becomes your first clue that all is not right and setting a spray pattern that you want is another. As to the heat from the turbine it would not be an issue as your fluid comes out of a suction feed gun and does not come near any heat produced by the turbine. Hope this helps. Regards,Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: wing spar question
Date: Jan 20, 2006
Steve, Send me a self addressed, stamped envelope and I will send you an article on designing built-up spars. The article was published in Sport Aviation in the early 1960's. My address is: Greg Cardinal 5236 Shoreview Ave. So. Minneapolis, MN 55417 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question > > > Hi Everybody. > > I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question > about the spars. > > I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use > modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a > builtup spar that has been designed for the wing. > > I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good > wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build > mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and > a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc. > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve G. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Philip Miller" <philip_miller_3(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair Crank
Date: Jan 20, 2006
If you want all the scoop on Corvairs, go to their list and sign up: search the CorvAircraft archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send a message to CorvAircraft-leave(at)mylist.net Other CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair Crank
Date: Jan 21, 2006
I just read a couple conversations on the crankshaft topic at maddyhome.com. I'm going ahead with the Corvair motor I have. I'll call him some time today or Monday and see what his approach to my question is. Thanks for these resources, they are very helpful. Thanks, Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip Miller To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:06 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Crank If you want all the scoop on Corvairs, go to their list and sign up: search the CorvAircraft archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send a message to CorvAircraft-leave(at)mylist.net Other CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2006
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair Crank
Hi, I have not been present on the list for the better part of a year, but I thought I'd chime in on this issue. I first met William Wynne at his hangar nearly 5 years ago and have been following the progress of his Corvair conversion work ever since then. I've been slowly working on my own conversion for the past 3 years, including having my EAA Chapter, #82 in Alliance Ohio, host Corvair College # 7 back in June 2004. As a follow-up to that event, Chapter 82 will be hosting the First (Annual?) Mid-America Corvair Fly-In June 2-4, 2006 at Barber Airport (2D1), Alliance, OH. William has agreed to come and hold several forums on the Corvair conversion, and hopefully, we'll have a good complement of Corvair-powered craft flying in for the event. We also plan on involving all the local CORSA chapters, so there should be a significant number of Corvair automobiles and a swap meet/fly mart for those looking for parts, engines, etc. Of course, there will be the best pancake breakfast any Chapter is capable of doing, with our crew of expert amatuers doing the cooking and serving. My point to all this, aside from publicizing this event, is to say that it's been my experience that when William makes a recommendation, it is truly based on careful testing and evaluation, and that the improvements he recommends will do what they are designed to do. Since I bought my first version of the conversion manual over 4 years ago William has made a number of changes in the way the engine is modified, all of them improvements designed to enhance the reliability and safety of the engine. This latest change is just that, and I will certainly follow his recommendations regarding nitriding. William is a guy you can trust to be straight about what he's doing, and his recommendations make sense. While my experience with aircraft engines is limited, I have rebuilt a number of car and small engines over the years, and based on that experience, I have complete confidence in both the Corvair engine as an aircraft powerplant, and in William's recommendations on how to do it right. Kip Gardner >I just read a couple conversations on the crankshaft topic at >maddyhome.com. I'm going ahead with the Corvair motor I have. I'll >call him some time today or Monday and see what his approach to my >question is. Thanks for these resources, they are very helpful. > >Thanks, >Glenn > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:philip_miller_3(at)earthlink.net>Philip Miller >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:06 AM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Crank > >If you want all the scoop on Corvairs, go to their list and sign up: > >search the CorvAircraft archives at ><http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp>http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp >to UNsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send a message to >CorvAircraft-leave(at)mylist.net >Other CorvAircraft list info is at ><http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html>http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html -- North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair Crank
Date: Jan 21, 2006
Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair CrankMy only question is how to truly know if the crank you're sending him is free of stress fractures/cracks. After viewing 2 of his videos, I believe he's truly out there for the benefit of all of us trying to find an affordable way to fly and seems to have amassed more knowledge than I ever could have on this subject. His ethics were never in question and I, as I'm sure we all do, appreciate that he's a straight shooter. I don't have any more access to a magnaflux machine that I can trust than the yellow pages show me in the machine shop listings. Like everyone, I don't doubt that nitriding is necessary. But, I do need to know if there is a way to get the same quality of information about my crank that William had during his testing before I spend money preparing mine for flight. ...and I would think that everyone flying a Corvair would have the same question in mind. I'm hoping to talk to him soon and I'll let you all know what he says. (30 minutes pass) Nevermind that, I just got off the phone with him and this is his advice to me. Do the ring test to see if your crank has any cracks. In his first assembly video he shows a ring test where he hits the crank with a hammer and it rings for 20 seconds in a single clear tone. He said the crank he tested that had the crack, rings in a very sour note. He went on to say that the ring test is likely to be better than an automotive magnaflux done locally. He's working on a video to clear up questions about the crankshaft and better educate us on strategies to manage risk in this area. The video will demonstrate how to do a proper ring test and will show a ring test of a good crank and compare it to a cracked crank and the difference is supposed to be unmistakably clear. He said the ring test was a reliable indicator of a crankshaft's health. He answered this and a number of other questions I had and took plenty of time to explain the reasoning for his answers. We really are lucky to have a resource like that that is just a phone call away. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Kip and Beth Gardner To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Crank Hi, I have not been present on the list for the better part of a year, but I thought I'd chime in on this issue. I first met William Wynne at his hangar nearly 5 years ago and have been following the progress of his Corvair conversion work ever since then. I've been slowly working on my own conversion for the past 3 years, including having my EAA Chapter, #82 in Alliance Ohio, host Corvair College # 7 back in June 2004. As a follow-up to that event, Chapter 82 will be hosting the First (Annual?) Mid-America Corvair Fly-In June 2-4, 2006 at Barber Airport (2D1), Alliance, OH. William has agreed to come and hold several forums on the Corvair conversion, and hopefully, we'll have a good complement of Corvair-powered craft flying in for the event. We also plan on involving all the local CORSA chapters, so there should be a significant number of Corvair automobiles and a swap meet/fly mart for those looking for parts, engines, etc. Of course, there will be the best pancake breakfast any Chapter is capable of doing, with our crew of expert amatuers doing the cooking and serving. My point to all this, aside from publicizing this event, is to say that it's been my experience that when William makes a recommendation, it is truly based on careful testing and evaluation, and that the improvements he recommends will do what they are designed to do. Since I bought my first version of the conversion manual over 4 years ago William has made a number of changes in the way the engine is modified, all of them improvements designed to enhance the reliability and safety of the engine. This latest change is just that, and I will certainly follow his recommendations regarding nitriding. William is a guy you can trust to be straight about what he's doing, and his recommendations make sense. While my experience with aircraft engines is limited, I have rebuilt a number of car and small engines over the years, and based on that experience, I have complete confidence in both the Corvair engine as an aircraft powerplant, and in William's recommendations on how to do it right. Kip Gardner I just read a couple conversations on the crankshaft topic at maddyhome.com. I'm going ahead with the Corvair motor I have. I'll call him some time today or Monday and see what his approach to my question is. Thanks for these resources, they are very helpful. Thanks, Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip Miller To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:06 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Crank If you want all the scoop on Corvairs, go to their list and sign up: search the CorvAircraft archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send a message to CorvAircraft-leave(at)mylist.net Other CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html -- North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: oil pressure gauge
Date: Jan 21, 2006
Howdy, Pieters- 41CC has an oil pressure gauge (mechanical) on it that was made by the Moto Meter Gauge & Equipment Corp. of LaCrosse, Wisconsin. The glass face is broken and I need to replace it. Searching the internet, it looks like these things have been out of manufacture for quite some time, which means I'll probably end up just getting a new gauge. However, if I can figure out how to get the bezel off to get to the glass face, I'm sure I can get a new glass face somewhere. Thing is, I can't see how the bezel comes off. Two screws on the back of the case hold the works into the case but don't help to get the bezel off. The bezel either screws in or is pressed into the front of the housing and case, but I don't want to pry it off if it's threaded. Anybody know anything about these gauges or should I just get a new one and forget it? As it is, the gauge does not read zero with it out of the panel and nothing hooked to it, so I know it's not calibrated properly. I can put it on a bench tester at work and recalibrate it if I can get a new glass face. If I'm just being sentimental trying to keep this gauge, speak up and I'll get a new one. Thanks. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: oil pressure gauge
Date: Jan 21, 2006
Hi Oscar A lot of old guages have a bezel that twists off. Push down and twist like a jar lid. Some sort of jar lid holder might help and save the finish. Good luck Steve G. >From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge >Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:40:40 -0600 > > > >Howdy, Pieters- > >41CC has an oil pressure gauge (mechanical) on it that was made by the Moto >Meter Gauge & Equipment Corp. of LaCrosse, Wisconsin. The glass face is >broken and I need to replace it. Searching the internet, it looks like >these things have been out of manufacture for quite some time, which means >I'll probably end up just getting a new gauge. However, if I can figure >out how to get the bezel off to get to the glass face, I'm sure I can get a >new glass face somewhere. Thing is, I can't see how the bezel comes off. > >Two screws on the back of the case hold the works into the case but don't >help to get the bezel off. The bezel either screws in or is pressed into >the front of the housing and case, but I don't want to pry it off if it's >threaded. Anybody know anything about these gauges or should I just get a >new one and forget it? As it is, the gauge does not read zero with it out >of the panel and nothing hooked to it, so I know it's not calibrated >properly. I can put it on a bench tester at work and recalibrate it if I >can get a new glass face. > >If I'm just being sentimental trying to keep this gauge, speak up and I'll >get a new one. Thanks. > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Malcolm Morrison" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Static Load Testing
Date: Jan 21, 2006
I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on static load testing of the Piet wing. I would like to do a positive load test, but I'm not sure what the easiest/best way to do this would be. I think that I will need to invert the assembled airframe and suspend it on some type of stand. Then, add sand bags to the wings, distributing the weight in an elliptical pattern. The sand bags would set on planks that rest on the spars of the assembled, but uncovered wings. That's the concept, but I'm wondering how and where to support the fuselage and wing. Should the support be under the inverted wing center section spars, or should it be on the floor of the fuselage? Any thoughts? Malcolm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2006
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Corvair Crank
>My only question is how to truly know if the crank you're sending >him is free of stress fractures/cracks. After viewing 2 of his >videos, I believe he's truly out there for the benefit of all of us >trying to find an affordable way to fly and seems to have amassed >more knowledge than I ever could have on this subject. His ethics >were never in question and I, as I'm sure we all do, appreciate that >he's a straight shooter. > >I don't have any more access to a magnaflux machine that I can trust >than the yellow pages show me in the machine shop listings. Like >everyone, I don't doubt that nitriding is necessary. But, I do need >to know if there is a way to get the same quality of information >about my crank that William had during his testing before I spend >money preparing mine for flight. ...and I would think that everyone >flying a Corvair would have the same question in mind. I'm hoping >to talk to him soon and I'll let you all know what he says. > >(30 minutes pass) > >Nevermind that, I just got off the phone with him and this is his >advice to me. Do the ring test to see if your crank has any cracks. >In his first assembly video he shows a ring test where he hits the >crank with a hammer and it rings for 20 seconds in a single clear >tone. He said the crank he tested that had the crack, rings in a >very sour note. He went on to say that the ring test is likely to >be better than an automotive magnaflux done locally. He's working >on a video to clear up questions about the crankshaft and better >educate us on strategies to manage risk in this area. The video >will demonstrate how to do a proper ring test and will show a ring >test of a good crank and compare it to a cracked crank and the >difference is supposed to be unmistakably clear. He said the ring >test was a reliable indicator of a crankshaft's health. He answered >this and a number of other questions I had and took plenty of time >to explain the reasoning for his answers. We really are lucky to >have a resource like that that is just a phone call away. > >Glenn Glenn, I've seen William do a ring test on a good crank (mine) and a bad one side by side - there is no question as to the difference. The good one really sounds like the ringing of a nice, clear bell. Another guy in my Chapter just recently started on his Corviar project & his first crank was seriously bad - no ring at all, just a sort of metallic 'thunk'. He got a different one that sounds good. If William says that this is definite evidence that is as good or better than magnafluxing, that's what I'll go with. When he demonstrated the ring test I witnessed, he did not say anything beyond the fact that it indicated a good or bad crank. This statement regarding its comparison to magnafluxing is new information to me, but I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for checking with him. Regards, Kip Gardner -- North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 22, 2006
Well, I'm just full of questions and issues, aren't I? I'm still working on the oil pressure gauge thing, but will most likely buy a new one (only $32 from Aircraft Spruce. 0-50 psi mechanical type), but two of you guys were kind enough to email me with offers to help with fixing my broken one so I'm still following up on those. Now for the turn and bank. Corky built 41CC with a venturi to power the turn and bank, but I was back in there wiring in my new ignition switch and noticed that the air inlet port on the instrument does not have a filter on it. As I understand it from Bingelis' books, there is supposed to be a small mushroom-shaped inlet air filter on this tapped fitting on the top rear of the housing. Searching for one in the Aircraft Spruce, Chief Aircraft, and Wicks catalogs... as well as Google searches and looking on eBay, turn up nothing. Anybody have a source for this filter, or ideas on a substitute? I can readily see dust up inside the instrument area behind the panel, so I know there is the potential for sucking dust into my T&B without a filter. Thanks. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2006
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
Oscar, Have you tried checking with any of the aircraft instrument overhaul shops? Everyone around here uses one in PA (can't remember the name offhand) & I remember seeing the web site for one called The Gyro House that's somewhere west of the Mississippi (CA or AZ, I think). Kip Gardner > >Well, I'm just full of questions and issues, aren't I? I'm still >working on the oil pressure gauge thing, but will most likely buy a >new one (only $32 from Aircraft Spruce. 0-50 psi mechanical type), >but two of you guys were kind enough to email me with offers to help >with fixing my broken one so I'm still following up on those. > >Now for the turn and bank. Corky built 41CC with a venturi to power >the turn and bank, but I was back in there wiring in my new ignition >switch and noticed that the air inlet port on the instrument does >not have a filter on it. As I understand it from Bingelis' books, >there is supposed to be a small mushroom-shaped inlet air filter on >this tapped fitting on the top rear of the housing. Searching for >one in the Aircraft Spruce, Chief Aircraft, and Wicks catalogs... as >well as Google searches and looking on eBay, turn up nothing. >Anybody have a source for this filter, or ideas on a substitute? I >can readily see dust up inside the instrument area behind the panel, >so I know there is the potential for sucking dust into my T&B >without a filter. > >Thanks. > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html > > -- North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 22, 2006
Kip writes- >I remember seeing the web site for one called The Gyro House No, no, no... "gyros" are these Greek taco things that you eat with tzatziki sauce ;o) Very good, by the way... had some in Santorini and they were pretty much the same as we eat here at a little place called Mina & Dimi's Greek House. I've gotten to really appreciate ouzo, too, but that's another story... and I don't like mine over ice. Hey, thanks for the lead; I've emailed The Gyro House's repair station to see if they offer the part for my T&B. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sealion330(at)cs.com
Date: Jan 22, 2006
Subject: fuel tank
hi gang. I am building the 3 foot center section on my pietenpol and I am making it a wet one. I have glassed in on bottom and sides with two baffles. I would like to use .025 aluminum for the top and would like to know what the best way to join the aluminum to the end ribs and spars. I used epoxy resin on inside of tank and plan a drain at the front and rear of tank. Also I will have a sample drain at the rear on either side. Thanks, Gardiner Mason in St. Simons Island Ga. . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: fuel tank
Date: Jan 22, 2006
My 2 cennts worth from building tanks for boats. It best if tank is all the same material. The differnt rates of expansion will cause problems down the road. Steve G >From: Sealion330(at)cs.com >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank >Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:45:37 EST > >hi gang. I am building the 3 foot center section on my pietenpol and I am >making it a wet one. I have glassed in on bottom and sides with two >baffles. I >would like to use .025 aluminum for the top and would like to know what the >best way to join the aluminum to the end ribs and spars. I used epoxy resin >on >inside of tank and plan a drain at the front and rear of tank. Also I will >have >a sample drain at the rear on either side. Thanks, Gardiner Mason in St. >Simons Island Ga. > >. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
The ones with venturi that I have flown have not really been worth a great deal. I don't know if you are planning on having a limited electrical system. The electrical ones are quite reliable and dependable. I would also check out some battery powered models, but they also likely might be more trouble than they are worth. The venturi system is very prone to icing, just like inside a carb and would add some weight. If I were not planning to have a starter or other small electrical system, I probably would just have the inclinometer and forget the turn an bank Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > Well, I'm just full of questions and issues, aren't I? I'm still working > on the oil pressure gauge thing, but will most likely buy a new one (only > $32 from Aircraft Spruce. 0-50 psi mechanical type), but two of you guys > were kind enough to email me with offers to help with fixing my broken one > so I'm still following up on those. > > Now for the turn and bank. Corky built 41CC with a venturi to power the > turn and bank, but I was back in there wiring in my new ignition switch > and noticed that the air inlet port on the instrument does not have a > filter on it. As I understand it from Bingelis' books, there is supposed > to be a small mushroom-shaped inlet air filter on this tapped fitting on > the top rear of the housing. Searching for one in the Aircraft Spruce, > Chief Aircraft, and Wicks catalogs... as well as Google searches and > looking on eBay, turn up nothing. Anybody have a source for this filter, > or ideas on a substitute? I can readily see dust up inside the instrument > area behind the panel, so I know there is the potential for sucking dust > into my T&B without a filter. > > Thanks. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Covair engine gauges
Question for you Piet/Corvair building concerning engine gauges. Am planning to use Autometer engine gauges as WW recommends. Question concerns the type of oil pressure and temperature gauges to get. Do I want use gauges with remote senders so I don't have to run tubes with hot oil into the cockpit? Also, any opinions on the need for CHT and EGT gauges with a Corvair engine? Thanks -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Mark wrote- >I don't know if you are planning on having a limited electrical system. Yes, a very limited electrical system is installed on 41CC... NONE! >If I were not planning to have a starter or other small electrical system, >I probably would just have the inclinometer and forget the turn an bank Yes, I would too... but the airplane was constructed and flown with a venturi and T&B, as well as a VSI, before I bought it from Corky. I'd rather keep everything in service than remove them, save weight, and have to build a new instrument panel. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Covair engine gauges
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Rick, I used the Westach instruments that Clarks had listed in their catalog with remote senders. My front cockpit has two CHT Gauges (one for LH and one for RH cylinder head) the lead wires are just long enough to reach the engine. I did not feel the need for a EGT Hans Rick Holland To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Covair engine gauges 01/22/2006 08:15 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Question for you Piet/Corvair building concerning engine gauges. Am planning to use Autometer engine gauges as WW recommends. Question concerns the type of oil pressure and temperature gauges to get. Do I want use gauges with remote senders so I don't have to run tubes with hot oil into the cockpit? Also, any opinions on the need for CHT and EGT gauges with a Corvair engine? Thanks -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Corvair engine gauges
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Rick asks- >Am planning to use Autometer engine gauges as WW recommends. >Question concerns the type of oil pressure and temperature gauges to get. >Do I want use gauges with remote senders so I don't have to run tubes >with hot oil into the cockpit? Absolutely. I think that was one of William's main points about using these gauges. Since the Corvair requires an electrical system to power the ignition, you've got juice so by all means use electric gauges and simplify things. >Also, any opinions on the need for CHT and EGT gauges with a Corvair >engine? Always a good idea, but not essential to flight. You can get a small combination EGT/CHT gauge from WesTach and others. I think if you didn't want one on the panel permanently, you could temporarily mount one somewhere for test flights to at least ensure that your cooling systems and everything else was up to snuff, then remove it. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
A working T&B is a good thing to have. On my journey home from OSH this summer, I got into some heavy rain and low ceilings over the mountains of northern Alabama. Visibility was low and the mountaintops were up in the clouds. I had to pick my way through the valleys and could see no horizon at all. The only way to keep the plane level was by reference to the Turn and Bank. A venturi system can ice up, but it has to be pretty close to freezing, with visible moisture (not a likely time to be flying a Pietenpol). A venturi does not ice nearly as readily as a carburetor, because it lacks the evaporative cooling of the gasoline which contributes greatly to carburetor icing. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator Mark wrote- >I don't know if you are planning on having a limited electrical system. Yes, a very limited electrical system is installed on 41CC... NONE! >If I were not planning to have a starter or other small electrical system, >I probably would just have the inclinometer and forget the turn an bank Yes, I would too... but the airplane was constructed and flown with a venturi and T&B, as well as a VSI, before I bought it from Corky. I'd rather keep everything in service than remove them, save weight, and have to build a new instrument panel. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: flying
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Finally flew mine Friday for the first time since October. Clear blue sky, 59 degrees, no wind. I took the day off, rebuilt the brakes and flew it for nearly an hour. Unfortunately I forgot to bring gloves and my hands got cold. I've been flying an RV-4 a lot since October and it has about ruined me as a pilot. It was good to get back in the Pietenpol and fly a plane that you have to think about when landing. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rcaprd(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flying In a message dated 1/19/2006 10:57:48 AM Central Standard Time, horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: There's been some good chat on building lately, but with the winter weather is anybody getting any flying in? It's too cold around here and I have mine all torn down changing the axle and re-doing the fuel system. The weather must be good somewhere. Dick N My prop is still on the work table, and I've still got to finish my new seat, and some other stuff. 59=BA and mild winds today. I've missed some great flying weather. :( Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
> >>I don't know if you are planning on having a limited electrical system. > > Yes, a very limited electrical system is installed on 41CC... NONE! > >>If I were not planning to have a starter or other small electrical system, >>I probably would just have the inclinometer and forget the turn an bank > > Yes, I would too... but the airplane was constructed and flown with a > venturi and T&B, as well as a VSI, before I bought it from Corky. I'd > rather keep everything in service than remove them, save weight, and have > to build a new instrument panel. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > Sorry Oscar. I didn't catch on to the fact that this was an existing installation. In that case there are a number of places that will rebuild the one you have without a great deal of money. Check out a current trade a plane. Most of the lower priced shops are there. You can either ship that one to them and have them rebuild that one for you, or they will send you one for the exchange and keep the down time as low as possible. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
Thanks Jack Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:40 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > A working T&B is a good thing to have. On my journey home from OSH this > summer, I got into some heavy rain and low ceilings over the mountains > of northern Alabama. Visibility was low and the mountaintops were up in > the clouds. I had to pick my way through the valleys and could see no > horizon at all. The only way to keep the plane level was by reference > to the Turn and Bank. > > A venturi system can ice up, but it has to be pretty close to freezing, > with visible moisture (not a likely time to be flying a Pietenpol). A > venturi does not ice nearly as readily as a carburetor, because it lacks > the evaporative cooling of the gasoline which contributes greatly to > carburetor icing. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP Jack I don't disagree with you about it being a good thing to have. Visible mositure is that cloud you can stumble into and though there is no fuel going through the tube, the cooling is significant. In southern climates I would guess it would be less important, but in northern climates it much more so. A 50 degree day at the surface, 3 degs per thousand feet temp drop, and another drop from the venturi and then throw in condensation from the temp drop and it can be a problem. I have flown over the hills in Alabama many times and know of what you speak. I now live in PA where the problem is even worse. A better solution in my opinion is a Garmin 296. Far less hassle to install, lighter and more important would add far more capability to the airplane to enjoy it. The 296 has a screen that uses the GPS to create a digital panel that has all 6 of the main flight instruments not just the T&B. If you ever got caught where you needed it to get out of a mess, you would in my opinion be much better off than with just a T&B. Cost is an issue, but by the time you spend a couple hundred for an instrument that works reasonably well, finding an old venturi, the piping and connection hardware ect and the time involved to do it all, well the difference spent for what is gain for me personally is a trade off worth the money. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I agree on the Garmin, Mark. I had a Garmin GPSMap 196 with me on that trip - I used its NRST button to take me to the nearest airport when I got into that mess! (BTW, if you are ever in that area, Huntsville Executive is a very nice airport!) I forgot about its instrument capabilities, but I doubt it can respond as fast as a Turn & Bank indicator - particularly with a plane as slow as a Pietenpol. While we are on the subject of marginal weather flying, though, I found that the Pietenpol is a pretty good plane to fly in such weather. I'm comfortable flying the Piet in weather I wouldn't dream of flying a fast spam-can in. As I told a friend, "Two miles visibility gives you almost two minutes to look at something before you hit it." And since I rarely fly it more than 800 feet AGL, low ceilings aren't much of a bother. Not that I advocate such flying, of course. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Blackwell Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:40 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > A working T&B is a good thing to have. On my journey home from OSH this > summer, I got into some heavy rain and low ceilings over the mountains > of northern Alabama. Visibility was low and the mountaintops were up in > the clouds. I had to pick my way through the valleys and could see no > horizon at all. The only way to keep the plane level was by reference > to the Turn and Bank. > > A venturi system can ice up, but it has to be pretty close to freezing, > with visible moisture (not a likely time to be flying a Pietenpol). A > venturi does not ice nearly as readily as a carburetor, because it lacks > the evaporative cooling of the gasoline which contributes greatly to > carburetor icing. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP Jack I don't disagree with you about it being a good thing to have. Visible mositure is that cloud you can stumble into and though there is no fuel going through the tube, the cooling is significant. In southern climates I would guess it would be less important, but in northern climates it much more so. A 50 degree day at the surface, 3 degs per thousand feet temp drop, and another drop from the venturi and then throw in condensation from the temp drop and it can be a problem. I have flown over the hills in Alabama many times and know of what you speak. I now live in PA where the problem is even worse. A better solution in my opinion is a Garmin 296. Far less hassle to install, lighter and more important would add far more capability to the airplane to enjoy it. The 296 has a screen that uses the GPS to create a digital panel that has all 6 of the main flight instruments not just the T&B. If you ever got caught where you needed it to get out of a mess, you would in my opinion be much better off than with just a T&B. Cost is an issue, but by the time you spend a couple hundred for an instrument that works reasonably well, finding an old venturi, the piping and connection hardware ect and the time involved to do it all, well the difference spent for what is gain for me personally is a trade off worth the money. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 23, 2006
I agree with Mark. The Garmin 196 works great as a back-up TC in my Cessna and I plan on using it in my Piet. For anybody who hasn't seen the 196 in action, you'll be very impressed. Also, I might be selling my 196 on Ebay later this week. Sterling Brooks Knot-2-Shabby Airport ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> > To: > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:40 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > >> >> >> A working T&B is a good thing to have. On my journey home from OSH this >> summer, I got into some heavy rain and low ceilings over the mountains >> of northern Alabama. Visibility was low and the mountaintops were up in >> the clouds. I had to pick my way through the valleys and could see no >> horizon at all. The only way to keep the plane level was by reference >> to the Turn and Bank. >> >> A venturi system can ice up, but it has to be pretty close to freezing, >> with visible moisture (not a likely time to be flying a Pietenpol). A >> venturi does not ice nearly as readily as a carburetor, because it lacks >> the evaporative cooling of the gasoline which contributes greatly to >> carburetor icing. >> >> Jack Phillips >> NX899JP > > Jack I don't disagree with you about it being a good thing to have. > Visible mositure is that cloud you can stumble into and though there is no > fuel going through the tube, the cooling is significant. In southern > climates I would guess it would be less important, but in northern > climates it much more so. A 50 degree day at the surface, 3 degs per > thousand feet temp drop, and another drop from the venturi and then throw > in condensation from the temp drop and it can be a problem. I have flown > over the hills in Alabama many times and know of what you speak. I now > live in PA where the problem is even worse. > > A better solution in my opinion is a Garmin 296. Far less hassle to > install, lighter and more important would add far more capability to the > airplane to enjoy it. The 296 has a screen that uses the GPS to create a > digital panel that has all 6 of the main flight instruments not just the > T&B. If you ever got caught where you needed it to get out of a mess, you > would in my opinion be much better off than with just a T&B. > > Cost is an issue, but by the time you spend a couple hundred for an > instrument that works reasonably well, finding an old venturi, the piping > and connection hardware ect and the time involved to do it all, well the > difference spent for what is gain for me personally is a trade off worth > the money. >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: New to the List
Hello Pietenpol'ers, Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? Thanks & Take Care, Ben Ramler Granite Falls. --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: New to the List
Ben-- the guy you want to talk to is Chris Bobka in MSP. He is a world-renowned expert in Pietenpols and small aircraft engines. I think Dick Navratil is from MN too....but not positve. I know he winters in FL. Welcome to the list ! PS-- take a shop course in gas welding or if you have access to a TIG unit use that for your metal fittings. If you can make metal fittings that is half the battle. More than 1/2 acutally. The woodwork is pretty easy, but the metal work and welding are the time-consuming portions of the plane. PSS-- get ALL of the Tony Bingelis books from EAA on building homebuilts. You can order them on the EAA web site. I think the set of 4 books are something like $80. VERY much worth the money. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Dallas" <bec176(at)msn.com>
Subject: New to the List
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Ben, The Piet is an excellant first project and the people on this list are an excellant source of information. Have Fun Jim Dallas >From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List >Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:35:37 -0800 (PST) > >Hello Pietenpol'ers, > > Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live >over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot >License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We >bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and >at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about >building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people >here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the >aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my >dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? > > > Thanks & Take Care, > > Ben Ramler > Granite Falls. > > >--------------------------------- > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands >ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New to the List
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Good advice, Mike Also Ben, Greg Cardinal is from Minneapolis. He and Dale Johnson built a beautiful Pietenpol. You should plan to attend Brodhead this July. Jack Phillips Pietenpol NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List Ben-- the guy you want to talk to is Chris Bobka in MSP. He is a world-renowned expert in Pietenpols and small aircraft engines. I think Dick Navratil is from MN too....but not positve. I know he winters in FL. Welcome to the list ! PS-- take a shop course in gas welding or if you have access to a TIG unit use that for your metal fittings. If you can make metal fittings that is half the battle. More than 1/2 acutally. The woodwork is pretty easy, but the metal work and welding are the time-consuming portions of the plane. PSS-- get ALL of the Tony Bingelis books from EAA on building homebuilts. You can order them on the EAA web site. I think the set of 4 books are something like $80. VERY much worth the money. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > I agree on the Garmin, Mark. I had a Garmin GPSMap 196 with me on that > trip - I used its NRST button to take me to the nearest airport when I > got into that mess! (BTW, if you are ever in that area, Huntsville > Executive is a very nice airport!) I forgot about its instrument > capabilities, but I doubt it can respond as fast as a Turn & Bank > indicator - particularly with a plane as slow as a Pietenpol. > > While we are on the subject of marginal weather flying, though, I found > that the Pietenpol is a pretty good plane to fly in such weather. I'm > comfortable flying the Piet in weather I wouldn't dream of flying a fast > spam-can in. As I told a friend, "Two miles visibility gives you almost > two minutes to look at something before you hit it." And since I rarely > fly it more than 800 feet AGL, low ceilings aren't much of a bother. > Not that I advocate such flying, of course. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > "Icarus Plummet" Jack the slower the airplane the more forgiving it is in a low ceiling low vis situation, but no airplane is really forgiving in such an unforgiving environment. The accident records are full of such stories, and I do recognize that you did not condone such flying as I do not. Yes even in a Piet, the instruments of the 196/296 or any of the Garmins work quite well to the point of being able to do a full IFR procedure with nothing but that should the need arise one day. The processor speeds and update rates make it work well enough and probably better than any other practical option available for a Piet. It is a strictly emergency procedure, but it is a viable options. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kirk Huizenga <kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org>
Subject: Re: New to the List
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Ben, Welcome. I'm in St Paul also. Come East and visit anytime. Kirk Kirk Huizenga Community Expert kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org 651.482.8203 my views are not necessarily the view of my employer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Tail Section Hinge Kits
The new price for the hinge kit from Vi Kapler is $ 60.00. The hinges now come completely finished. These are the tail section hinge kits. PLease send your check or money order to: Vitalis Kapler's Address is 1033 Forest Hills Drive SW - Rochester, MN 55902 --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
Sterling, i would be interested in your 196, could you enlighten me as to why you are selling it, what you are asking for it; what program is in it (I live in Illinois) and just curious, what do they sell for new, thanks. Gene -----Original Message----- >From: Sterling <sterling(at)pgrb.com> >Sent: Jan 23, 2006 12:04 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > >I agree with Mark. The Garmin 196 works great as a back-up TC in my Cessna >and I plan on using it in my Piet. For anybody who hasn't seen the 196 in >action, you'll be very impressed. > >Also, I might be selling my 196 on Ebay later this week. > >Sterling Brooks >Knot-2-Shabby Airport > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net> >To: >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:37 AM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:40 AM >> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator >> >> >>> >>> >>> A working T&B is a good thing to have. On my journey home from OSH this >>> summer, I got into some heavy rain and low ceilings over the mountains >>> of northern Alabama. Visibility was low and the mountaintops were up in >>> the clouds. I had to pick my way through the valleys and could see no >>> horizon at all. The only way to keep the plane level was by reference >>> to the Turn and Bank. >>> >>> A venturi system can ice up, but it has to be pretty close to freezing, >>> with visible moisture (not a likely time to be flying a Pietenpol). A >>> venturi does not ice nearly as readily as a carburetor, because it lacks >>> the evaporative cooling of the gasoline which contributes greatly to >>> carburetor icing. >>> >>> Jack Phillips >>> NX899JP >> >> Jack I don't disagree with you about it being a good thing to have. >> Visible mositure is that cloud you can stumble into and though there is no >> fuel going through the tube, the cooling is significant. In southern >> climates I would guess it would be less important, but in northern >> climates it much more so. A 50 degree day at the surface, 3 degs per >> thousand feet temp drop, and another drop from the venturi and then throw >> in condensation from the temp drop and it can be a problem. I have flown >> over the hills in Alabama many times and know of what you speak. I now >> live in PA where the problem is even worse. >> >> A better solution in my opinion is a Garmin 296. Far less hassle to >> install, lighter and more important would add far more capability to the >> airplane to enjoy it. The 296 has a screen that uses the GPS to create a >> digital panel that has all 6 of the main flight instruments not just the >> T&B. If you ever got caught where you needed it to get out of a mess, you >> would in my opinion be much better off than with just a T&B. >> >> Cost is an issue, but by the time you spend a couple hundred for an >> instrument that works reasonably well, finding an old venturi, the piping >> and connection hardware ect and the time involved to do it all, well the >> difference spent for what is gain for me personally is a trade off worth >> the money. >>> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Gene and all... I'm upgrading to a color Garmin having terrain alerts. Plan on flying in the Rocky Mountains and the 196 doesn't have the alert feature. This 196 has a data card in it for holding additional info, although I only used it on two occassions when driving in Houston and New Orleans... The data card makes the 196 VERY helpful in your card for storing info about city streets. I'm not 100% positive about selling it until next week though, but I cn highly recommend the 196 for use as a back-up TC and altimeter, among other features. If I place this on Ebay, I'll alert the list. Sterling Brooks Knot-2-Shabby Airport ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Beenenga" <kgbunltd(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > Sterling, i would be interested in your 196, could you enlighten me as to > why you are selling it, what you are asking for it; what program is in it > (I live in Illinois) and just curious, what do they sell for new, thanks. > Gene > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Sterling <sterling(at)pgrb.com> >>Sent: Jan 23, 2006 12:04 PM >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator >> >> >>I agree with Mark. The Garmin 196 works great as a back-up TC in my Cessna >>and I plan on using it in my Piet. For anybody who hasn't seen the 196 in >>action, you'll be very impressed. >> >>Also, I might be selling my 196 on Ebay later this week. >> >>Sterling Brooks >>Knot-2-Shabby Airport >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net> >>To: >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:37 AM >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:40 AM >>> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A working T&B is a good thing to have. On my journey home from OSH >>>> this >>>> summer, I got into some heavy rain and low ceilings over the mountains >>>> of northern Alabama. Visibility was low and the mountaintops were up >>>> in >>>> the clouds. I had to pick my way through the valleys and could see no >>>> horizon at all. The only way to keep the plane level was by reference >>>> to the Turn and Bank. >>>> >>>> A venturi system can ice up, but it has to be pretty close to freezing, >>>> with visible moisture (not a likely time to be flying a Pietenpol). A >>>> venturi does not ice nearly as readily as a carburetor, because it >>>> lacks >>>> the evaporative cooling of the gasoline which contributes greatly to >>>> carburetor icing. >>>> >>>> Jack Phillips >>>> NX899JP >>> >>> Jack I don't disagree with you about it being a good thing to have. >>> Visible mositure is that cloud you can stumble into and though there is >>> no >>> fuel going through the tube, the cooling is significant. In southern >>> climates I would guess it would be less important, but in northern >>> climates it much more so. A 50 degree day at the surface, 3 degs per >>> thousand feet temp drop, and another drop from the venturi and then >>> throw >>> in condensation from the temp drop and it can be a problem. I have >>> flown >>> over the hills in Alabama many times and know of what you speak. I now >>> live in PA where the problem is even worse. >>> >>> A better solution in my opinion is a Garmin 296. Far less hassle to >>> install, lighter and more important would add far more capability to the >>> airplane to enjoy it. The 296 has a screen that uses the GPS to create >>> a >>> digital panel that has all 6 of the main flight instruments not just the >>> T&B. If you ever got caught where you needed it to get out of a mess, >>> you >>> would in my opinion be much better off than with just a T&B. >>> >>> Cost is an issue, but by the time you spend a couple hundred for an >>> instrument that works reasonably well, finding an old venturi, the >>> piping >>> and connection hardware ect and the time involved to do it all, well the >>> difference spent for what is gain for me personally is a trade off worth >>> the money. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: New to the List
Hi Jim and everyone, Thanks for those who responded. James I'll be emailing you off list. But I wish I could come to Broadhead 2008! If it was anything like Broadhead 1997 It should be fun. I'll be doing alot of traveling this summer and I don't think I'll be coming. But if its not to much to ask can I get a ride in one at some point? Thanks, Ben James Dallas wrote: Ben, The Piet is an excellant first project and the people on this list are an excellant source of information. Have Fun Jim Dallas >From: Ben Ramler >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List >Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:35:37 -0800 (PST) > >Hello Pietenpol'ers, > > Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live >over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot >License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We >bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and >at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about >building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people >here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the >aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my >dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? > > > Thanks & Take Care, > > Ben Ramler > Granite Falls. > > >--------------------------------- > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands >ASAP. --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: GPS/was turn and bank indicator
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Well, I own one of them new-fangled GPSMap 196s and the thought did not escape me that it could be used for some pseudo-instrument maneuvers if the need arose. I figure it can also be used by the front-seater (instructor) for checking out somebody in the rear cockpit (41CC has no instruments in the front cockpit). However, that said- it does have its limitations and one big one is that the "airspeed indicator" in the GPS's representation of a 6-pack instrument panel is not reading airspeed... it's reading groundspeed. You can fly downwind in a moderate breeze and stall the airplane and it will still show a "safe" airspeed. In short- NOT what you want to be looking at in cruddy conditions. But for the "HSI", "DG", and turn/bank indications it could be useful. That life-saving 180 degree turn out of a sudden VFR flight into a fog bank could be done using that little GPS if a guy kept his cool. Now for another problem. If you're over 50, like me, try holding that little instrument panel out at arm's length in the slipstream so you can read it, or reach for your reading glasses so you can make out the numbers. ;o) Thanks to one of you guys (or all; it doesn't matter) Ann at The Gyro House thinks she can get a filter off one of their core units for me. They don't have any new ones, but that's fine because I'm flying an airplane that's supposed to be 75 years old anyway! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: turn and bank indicator
From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: turn and bank indicator > > > I agree on the Garmin, Mark. I had a Garmin GPSMap 196 with me on that > trip - I used its NRST button to take me to the nearest airport when I > got into that mess! (BTW, if you are ever in that area, Huntsville > Executive is a very nice airport!) I forgot about its instrument > capabilities, but I doubt it can respond as fast as a Turn & Bank > indicator - particularly with a plane as slow as a Pietenpol. > > While we are on the subject of marginal weather flying, though, I found > that the Pietenpol is a pretty good plane to fly in such weather. I'm > comfortable flying the Piet in weather I wouldn't dream of flying a fast > spam-can in. As I told a friend, "Two miles visibility gives you almost > two minutes to look at something before you hit it." And since I rarely > fly it more than 800 feet AGL, low ceilings aren't much of a bother. > Not that I advocate such flying, of course. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > "Icarus Plummet" Jack the slower the airplane the more forgiving it is in a low ceiling low vis situation, but no airplane is really forgiving in such an unforgiving environment. The accident records are full of such stories, and I do recognize that you did not condone such flying as I do not. Yes even in a Piet, the instruments of the 196/296 or any of the Garmins work quite well to the point of being able to do a full IFR procedure with nothing but that should the need arise one day. The processor speeds and update rates make it work well enough and probably better than any other practical option available for a Piet. It is a strictly emergency procedure, but it is a viable options. "Mark Blackwell" ************* I have flown to that conditions (low ceiling and fog) once, but fortunatly was in a "trike" weight shift, that is self stable (only drifts by the wind direction) and in a well known area, but full of montains, I used the Garmin to turn around (a 180) to safety, and it was scary. This experience was what made us install a wing leveler auto pilot in our new 701 STOL.,. Sincerly I hope never need it in the 701. Saludos Gary Gower. --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: New to the List
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Hi Ben, Many Pietenpols live in Minnesota. At least a half-dozen on this list including Kirk Huizinga, Tom Brant, Dan Wilson, Mike Johnson and Dick Navratil. Ken Heide is close by in ND. I'm sure there are others. Dale Johnson and I have ours hangared at Stanton (SYN), located between Northfield and Cannon Falls, about 35 miles south of the Twin Cities. Stanton has a BIG Father's Day fly-in. Call me anytime if you want to arrange a visit. Greg Cardinal 612 721-6235 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List Hello Pietenpol'ers, Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? Thanks & Take Care, Ben Ramler Granite Falls. Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List wing gap covers
Pieters, Any good ideas for covering the gaps between the wing joints on a three piece wing other than aluminum strips and wood screws? I have a flop so it will start and stop at the flop. (8 ft long) Ken in snow covered Iowa but pretty warm for Jan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List wing gap covers
you know Ken......Ken in the english dictionary means very handsome.....sincerely Ken Wizzard187(at)aol.com wrote: Pieters, Any good ideas for covering the gaps between the wing joints on a three piece wing other than aluminum strips and wood screws? I have a flop so it will start and stop at the flop. (8 ft long) Ken in snow covered Iowa but pretty warm for Jan --------------------------------- Photo Books. You design it and well bind it! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: New to the list......
Ben, I live in Hawley, Mn and work in Fargo, ND. I travel the tri-state area for my profession (medical) visiting many clinics and smaller communities. I have visited with many patients who are flyer's and become great resources to assist in just about anything you ask for. Over the past few years, have been donating all of my flying subscriptions to the veterans home once I am done reading them. Being a marine, I meet quite a few fellows who can rekindle their memories about flying. Hence.... it keeps me focused on my project to make sure I can create such great stories for my children. New a dull moment hearing these stories and seeing the excitement as they are told. So, just remember to ask questions and it will lead you down a road full of information and great connections along the way. My next adventure is to visit Greg Cardinal for a ride I am truly going to enjoy! Ken Heide Hawley, MN 218-486-1963 H 701-364-9100 W --------------------------------- Photo Books. You design it and well bind it! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: thanks
Thanks again everyone. But there is one secret I'm holding back on. Believe or not I already started at some point Building the aircamper! In my dads garage in St. Joseph. Next time I'm up there if everyone one wants I will take pictures if everyone likes take Care, Ben --------------------------------- Photo Books. You design it and well bind it! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: New to the List
Hi Greg, Thanks for the email. I might take you up on that at some point. I was wondering. If maybe I can get a ride in your peit? gcardinal wrote: Hi Ben, Many Pietenpols live in Minnesota. At least a half-dozen on this list including Kirk Huizinga, Tom Brant, Dan Wilson, Mike Johnson and Dick Navratil. Ken Heide is close by in ND. I'm sure there are others. Dale Johnson and I have ours hangared at Stanton (SYN), located between Northfield and Cannon Falls, about 35 miles south of the Twin Cities. Stanton has a BIG Father's Day fly-in. Call me anytime if you want to arrange a visit. Greg Cardinal 612 721-6235 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List Hello Pietenpol'ers, Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? Thanks & Take Care, Ben Ramler Granite Falls. --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
Subject: Oil pressure gauge
From: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Rick, I believe William Wynne recommends non-electric "steem"gauges for oil pressure--check his manual. Rich H. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: oil pressure gauge
Date: Jan 24, 2006
I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741 MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of Corvair engine instrument recommendations. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: oil pressure gauge
Must depend on whether you plan on having an alternator. I called down there yesterday and they said use electrical gauges. Rick H On 1/24/06, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > taildrags(at)hotmail.com> > > I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741 > MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of > Corvair engine instrument recommendations. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: oil pressure gauge
Date: Jan 24, 2006
OZcar: What happened to the snazzy VDO guages you got from me with the Corvair bounty you acquired in Junction, TX? Plata ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge > > > I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741 > MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of > Corvair engine instrument recommendations. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oil pressure gauge
William's manual says "The pressure lines are therefore the lines to work to avoid having in the cabin". On page 63. On 1/24/06, rhartwig11(at)juno.com wrote: > > > Rick, > I believe William Wynne recommends non-electric "steem"gauges for oil > pressure--check his manual. > Rich H. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wing spar question
Date: Jan 24, 2006
Hi Greg I just received an article via email from Doug Mundy. It is 5 pages from April 1961 Magazine about the builtup spars. I bet it is the same one. Thank you for your offer. Best regards Steve G >From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:32:30 -0600 > > >Steve, >Send me a self addressed, stamped envelope and I will send you an article >on designing built-up spars. The article was published in Sport Aviation in >the early 1960's. >My address is: > >Greg Cardinal >5236 Shoreview Ave. So. >Minneapolis, MN 55417 > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com> >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:43 AM >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question > > >> >> >>Hi Everybody. >> >>I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question >>about the spars. >> >>I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use >>modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a >>builtup spar that has been designed for the wing. >> >>I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good >>wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build >>mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and >>a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc. >> >>Thanks in advance. >> >>Steve G. >> >> >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: barnstmr(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Static Load Testing
Mike, I see nobody ever got back to you on your test question. Are you planning to load the wing more than 1 or 2 G's? If I were going to do this, I would build a steel fixture to suspend the airframe (inverted) from above. Thats a lot of work though. I think the 75+ years of flight testing is enough for me to go without static testing. Does anyone know of a failure of a Pietenpol wing overloaded? Perhaps more likely is failures of over gross weight flight attempts with too little power. Terry L. Bowden -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm Morrison <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing I?m interested in anyone?s thoughts on static load testing of the Piet wing. I would like to do a positive load test, but I?m not sure what the easiest/best way to do this would be. I think that I will need to invert the assembled airframe and suspend it on some type of stand. Then, add sand bags to the wings, distributing the weight in an elliptical pattern. The sand bags would set on planks that rest on the spars of the assembled, but uncovered wings. That?s the concept, but I?m wondering how and where to support the fuselage and wing. Should the support be under the inverted wing center section spars, or should it be on the floor of the fuselage? Any thoughts? Malcolm ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Static Load Testing
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 24, 2006
Tim, You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw horses. Do you intend to test to failure? Or just 3G load? Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other construction options. How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?), spruce or other wood What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size? Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings? What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless? And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol. None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your option. Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test to fail. Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small size aluminum struts. It would be nice to know the end result of such test. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: New to the List
Date: Jan 24, 2006
Hey Mike I'm here in St. Paul all winter this year. I'm working hard on gettin g thae radial engine started in the next couple of weeks. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List > > > Ben-- the guy you want to talk to is Chris Bobka in MSP. He is a > world-renowned expert in Pietenpols and small > aircraft engines. > > I think Dick Navratil is from MN too....but not positve. I know he > winters in FL. > > Welcome to the list ! > > PS-- take a shop course in gas welding or if you have access to a TIG unit > use that for your metal fittings. If you can make > metal fittings that is half the battle. More than 1/2 acutally. The > woodwork is pretty easy, but the metal work and welding > are the time-consuming portions of the plane. > > PSS-- get ALL of the Tony Bingelis books from EAA on building homebuilts. > You can order them on the EAA web site. I think the > set of 4 books are something like $80. VERY much worth the money. > > Mike C. in Ohio > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wheels
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: 1. Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Planes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes 2. If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that. 3. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: a. There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landing to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels b. Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power c. Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The design of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Wheels
Say Jack, I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid..... Ken Heide Fargo, ND "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Planes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21 wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I cant see why you would want to do that. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landing to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. Im not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8 Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2 axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The design of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axles ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanans that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. Ive also got pictures of Mike Cuys that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP Icarus Plummet -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: barnstmr(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Wheels
Me too. Why not post them on the Matronics photo site for all to see. Terry L. Bowden -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth M. Heide <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Say Jack, I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid..... Ken Heide Fargo, ND "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: * Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Pla nes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes * If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that. * Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: * There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landi ng to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels * Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power * Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The desi gn of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler -------- on new and used cars. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: Wheels
Date: Jan 24, 2006
If I can get some of the mess out of my hanger I'll pull my Pietenpol out into the 75 degree sunny shiney day and send anyone who in interested a picture of the Honda CB350 motorcycle wheels on my airplane. I had them powder coated red to match the color I plan on painting the fuselage, but now I wish I would have painted the wheels black for a more authentic/nostalgic look. Sterling ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth M. Heide To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:05 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Say Jack, I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid..... Ken Heide Fargo, ND "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: 1.. Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Pla nes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes 2.. If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that. 3.. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: 1.. There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landi ng to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels 2.. Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power 3.. Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The desi gn of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: New to the List
Ben, Welcome. A Pietenpol would be perfect. go to this site to find where most of the Piets are. You can even add yourself to the list. http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List Hello Pietenpol'ers, Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? Thanks & Take Care, Ben Ramler Granite Falls. Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Malcolm Morrison" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Static Load Testing
Date: Jan 24, 2006
Hans, I have indeed made changes from the plans and that is the driving motivation for wanting to perform the static load test. I have enlarged the center section to 47" and tilted the cabanes out at the top so that they still attach to the ends of the center section spars. The front spar attach hardware is basically the same as called for on the 3-piece wing plans, but the rear spar attach hardware is a pivot joint. This is similar to other designs to allow the wing to fold back. The other change is that the lift struts will form a 'V', attaching to the fuselage at the rear lift strut mount location. The steel strap that connects the two lift struts across the fuselage has been doubled. I'm looking at an 1100 lb, 3g load, or 3300 lb. Assuming an elliptical lift distribution the center section would lift about 600lb and each wing panel would lift about 1300lb. Most of the lift force of the panels would be transmitted to the lift struts due to the lift distribution around the point where the struts attach to the wings. The attach points (center section to panels) would bare little load. The part I'm pondering is where to suspend the airframe. I could build a simple, strong box and rest the center section spars on it (inverted). Or I could build an elaborate stand to rest the ash fuselage cross member on, hanging all the weight on the fuselage/lift strut attach point. I'm not sure which is correct. On the other hand, I'm using proven spar design, proven front spar attach design, beefy pivot as used on other designs, aircraft hardware throughout. So, what am I really testing or expecting to see? Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing Tim, You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw horses. Do you intend to test to failure? Or just 3G load? Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other construction options. How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?), spruce or other wood What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size? Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings? What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless? And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol. None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your option. Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test to fail. Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small size aluminum struts. It would be nice to know the end result of such test. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: "John and Phyllis Smoyer" <jpsmoyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Wheels
Sterling: I'd definitely be interested in seeing your wheel pix. If you are taking new photos, would you mind taking one that shoes how wide the hubs are, and how the brakes are installed. Thanks, John S ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sterling" <sterling(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: Wheels
Date: Jan 24, 2006
John: I'll try and wheel the Piet out this weekend. I came up with a novel way for doing my brakes. I'm confident the Honda wheels will work fine and I think the gossip about spokes/wheels going south is urban legend. Anyway, a good pilot can land one of these without side loading the wheels and putting undo stress on the spokes and hub. Sterling Brooks 5TA6, San Antonio Sectional ----- Original Message ----- From: John and Phyllis Smoyer To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Sterling: I'd definitely be interested in seeing your wheel pix. If you are taking new photos, would you mind taking one that shoes how wide the hubs are, and how the brakes are installed. Thanks, John S ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Wheels
Date: Jan 24, 2006
Go here to find the definitive article on building wire wheels, thank to Jim for putting these on the web. http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=3D56 Also look in his building log for pictures of his wheels built to these plans http://mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D803&PlaneID=3D52&FName=3DJim&LName=3DMarkle&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2006
From: Greg Bacon <gbacon67(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Wheels (Mountain Piet update too)
Ben, To see an excellent example of wire wheels with custom made hubs and mechanical disc brakes go to http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html. You will also see other great photos of John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", of which I am the current guardian. As a side note for those of you who know me and the story of John's Mountain Piet, I am very close to getting back to rebuilding the left wing panel, etc. We finished (95% anyway) and moved into our house last Fall. Yes, I have a honey-do list as long as my arm. I've kept a charge on Mtn Piet's battery and run her up every other month for about 10 minutes to keep the engine lubed, move fresh gas in the lines, and to stir up the coolant. For what it's worth -- On the subject of brakes, my preference is to have them and to operate them individually. Differential breaking is a really nice thing to have in a tail dragger. It gives very good taxi control. I had a Cherokee 140 with a single hand brake. As I applied pressure to the brake, it affected both wheels simultaneously. Turning that plane around took a fairly large area (as compared to a plane with differential braking). Having breaks also allows one to perform run-up checks easily. The great thing about building a piet is that you get to build the system you prefer. I highly recommend going to the Brodhead fly-in to see the variety of piet configurations. Bring a camera! Greg Bacon Missouri ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Wheels
Date: Jan 25, 2006
Thanks Chris. I just wish I could claim even a small part of what those pictures show. I've shamelessly copied ideas from Howard Henderson, ideas forwarded/published by Grant MaClaren, stuff that Cuy, Phillips, Corbett and many others came up with. My project would not be worth the effort if it wasn't for the smarts of a lot of craftsmen out there. And I also love the idea of wire wheels and agree with Sterling, black wire wheels are a bit more authentic. I too wondered about hub width and whether or not "narrow" motorcycle hubs might be more prone to collapse. Then I realized, if I have a choice, why not go wider? It was a fairly costly process (scans of my wheel and wheel accessories invoices are on mykitplane.com) but to me, worth it. It's really easy to spend a lot of time and energy sweating the small stuff when you can just play it safe in some of these decisions. Ahh, choices choices. I just finished powdercoating the remainder of the metal fittings (yeah, there will probably be a few pieces I've missed) and can now focus on the instrument panel. It will also reflect neat things I've seen others do. For the panel, I'm copying some simple inlay (purfling) ideas from a Luthier I saw on the Discovery Channel. I don't know about anyone else but my mind and heart have been wandering up to Brodhead a LOT lately... The field is probably covered with snow right now but not in my mind... JM ----- Original Message ----- From: Catdesign To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Go here to find the definitive article on building wire wheels, thank to Jim for putting these on the web. http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=3D56 Also look in his building log for pictures of his wheels built to these plans http://mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D803&PlaneID=3D52&FName=3DJim&LName=3DMarkle&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 5 gal can mess
Date: Jan 25, 2006
Hey guys, I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however, how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff! I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath. I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon cans. Or maybe a screw on spout? thoughts? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: tint for dope?
Date: Jan 25, 2006
Anybody have any ideas of what kind of tint would be safe to add to dope to help me get the fill coats on evenly? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: 5 gal can mess
Douwe-- I used a clean metal coffee can to 'dip and transfer'. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: 5 gal can mess
Date: Jan 25, 2006
There is a drum pump available that will screw into a variety of containers. You can order from Horizon Pool Supply 1-800-969-0454 price is $19.95. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 5 gal can mess Hey guys, I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however, how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff! I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath. I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon cans. Or maybe a screw on spout? thoughts? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: tint for dope?
Date: Jan 25, 2006
Hi again Douwe Stits is currently working on a special order for my new project. I asked them for Poly Brush and Poly Tone with a Mahogany stain added along with UV filter. That will be my finished surface. I don't know what brand of stain they are using, but you could try a test sample with wood stain. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tint for dope? Anybody have any ideas of what kind of tint would be safe to add to dope to help me get the fill coats on evenly? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Static Load Testing
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 25, 2006
Malcolm I fail to see a elaborate test set up. Just build up the airframe up side down on some saw horses, see attached pdf. Note at 3300 Lbs you need some sturdy ones 3 G's is good load test, if you do not fly to extremes you should never see this load. A steep turn ,60 degree from horizontal is 2 G's. Most of us do not go beyond a gentle 30 degree turn. (1.3 G) What to look for during test? Well if it breaks, you are back to the drawing board. If it does not break: remember that all metals stretch before break, so measure all metal parts before and after the test. If some thing is longer after the load test, it is very close to breaking. Also check elongation of bolt holes both in wood and metal. And check for deformation / compression in wood frame. Cracks in welding , paint your welded steel white with a thin coat before test, cracks show easier cracks in or near glue joints. Just my thoughts Hans (See attached file: load test.pdf) "Malcolm Morrison" Sent by: cc owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron Subject ics.com RE: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing 01/24/2006 04:59 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans, I have indeed made changes from the plans and that is the driving motivation for wanting to perform the static load test. I have enlarged the center section to 47" and tilted the cabanes out at the top so that they still attach to the ends of the center section spars. The front spar attach hardware is basically the same as called for on the 3-piece wing plans, but the rear spar attach hardware is a pivot joint. This is similar to other designs to allow the wing to fold back. The other change is that the lift struts will form a 'V', attaching to the fuselage at the rear lift strut mount location. The steel strap that connects the two lift struts across the fuselage has been doubled. I'm looking at an 1100 lb, 3g load, or 3300 lb. Assuming an elliptical lift distribution the center section would lift about 600lb and each wing panel would lift about 1300lb. Most of the lift force of the panels would be transmitted to the lift struts due to the lift distribution around the point where the struts attach to the wings. The attach points (center section to panels) would bare little load. The part I'm pondering is where to suspend the airframe. I could build a simple, strong box and rest the center section spars on it (inverted). Or I could build an elaborate stand to rest the ash fuselage cross member on, hanging all the weight on the fuselage/lift strut attach point. I'm not sure which is correct. On the other hand, I'm using proven spar design, proven front spar attach design, beefy pivot as used on other designs, aircraft hardware throughout. So, what am I really testing or expecting to see? Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing Tim, You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw horses. Do you intend to test to failure? Or just 3G load? Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other construction options. How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?), spruce or other wood What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size? Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings? What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless? And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol. None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your option. Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test to fail. Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small size aluminum struts. It would be nice to know the end result of such test. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Chambers" <ken@prototype-ideas.com>
Subject: The rats ate my glue.
Date: Jan 25, 2006
For the second time since I moved into this old house, the rats have dragged the T-88 Part B Hardener away and chewed up the bottle. I thought I had them all killed off and the holes patched up, but there must be a couple coming through somewhere. And they must really love the stuff. Anyone else had any problems with this? Ken, working on the house and moving slowly on the Piet in Austin, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: 5 gal can mess
Date: Jan 25, 2006
If you can unscrew the plug, they sell at auto parts stores a valve stem with threads and two nuts. Just drill a hole and put the stem in and tighten the nuts. Then make a spout of some sort, threaded pipe like used in a lamp and two nuts and a piece of tubing hose clamped onto it. Then pressurize the drum lightly. Very lightly and it should come out. Just be ready to push in the valve to release the pressure to stop the flow. Very light pressure! Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 5 gal can mess Hey guys, I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however, how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff! I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath. I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon cans. Or maybe a screw on spout? thoughts? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2006
From: "John and Phyllis Smoyer" <jpsmoyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Wheels
Thanks, Sterling. Looking forward to your pix. John S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2006
From: dmott9(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: 5 gal can mess
How about finding one of those larger plunger type pumps, like the kind that are on GO-JO tubs. Maybe someone could come up with some building plans for building one. They are nothing more than some tubing, spring and some check valves. -dennis -----Original Message----- From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: 5 gal can mess Hey guys, I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however, how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff! I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath. I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon cans. Or maybe a screw on spout? thoughts? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Malcolm Morrison" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Static Load Testing
Date: Jan 25, 2006
Rich, Hans I am an engineer, but not the kind that counts. I work in software and systems, not aerodynamics or structures. So, please take that into account when you consider any structural assumptions that I make. I ran some numbers on the forces on a Piet wing today and this is what I came up with. Assuming an 1100 lb airplane at 3 Gs, or 3300 lbs, and a rectangular wing exhibiting an elliptical lift distribution. A plans built center section would provide 293 lbs of lift, and each wing panel would provide 1503.5 lbs of lift. The pull force on the cabanes from the center section would be 146.5 for each side. With 2 cabanes on each side you could divide this number in half for 73.25 lbs on each cabane if you assume that the front and rear cabanes each receive the same force. The force on the outer panel is a little more complex since the unsupported wing tip induces a torque around the lift strut - wing attach point. The result of this is an additional 248 lbs of upward pull on each cabane pair, for a total of 394.5 lbs This leaves 1255.5 lbs lifting force for each wing panel at the lift strut attach points. My modification of making a 4 foot center section will have very little affect on these forces. The wider center section has more lifting force than the plans version, but the shorter wing panels induce less torque, and less additional upward force on the cabanes. The cabane struts will be subject to 401 lbs pull on each pair (a 2% increase over plans), and the lift struts will have a 1249 lbs pull (0.4% decrease). These forces affect the fuselage structure in two ways. First, the wing center section is trying to pull itself upward, off the fuselage. The cabane struts, wires, attach points, and fuselage structure work against this pull, which is 800 lbs. To test this structure I would need to support the fuselage upside down from points where the forces are exerted on the fuselage structure. This could be the bottom of the cabane mounts, the cockpit floor, and possible the firewall. I don't think that tail should be supported since The other force comes from the wing panels pulling upward at 1255.5 lbs each. This results in an outward pull at the fuselage - lift strut attach point of 2188 lbs each (only 1724 lbs each on the modified version due to the shorter panels). To test this I could rest the inverted center section on a box and load the wing panels appropriately. I have doubled size of the steel strap since I'm using a 'V' strut arrangement and there is only one strap. I will keep the cross strap attached to the ash cross member with additional short straps. Anybody agree, disagree with these numbers or thoughts ;-) Malcolm http://users.adelphia.net/~morrisons5/piet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Cc: "MSW - Work"
Subject: Rats!
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Ken Chambers wrote: > the rats have dragged the T-88 Part B Hardener away and > chewed up the bottle. I thought I had them all killed off OK, here's whatcha do: First off, buy a snake. A large rat snake, perhaps. Snakes eat rats. Rat snakes are a pretty sure bet for eating rats. Unless it's a small rat snake. Then they'll only eat mice. But strangely, there's no such thing as a mouse snake. You'd think a small rat snake would be a mouse snake, but it's not. It's just a small rat snake. Which should be just fine with you, though, since you have a rat problem, not a mouse problem. There's a difference between the two, you know. Mice are the cuter of the two. Anyway, release your rat snake into your shop, and wait a month or two for him to eat all the rats. You'll probably rarely see the snake, and eventually you won't see any rats. You won't see any mice, either. But don't jump to conclusions and assume that your big rat snake also ate your mice. Especially considering that you didn't see any mice in the first place. I sure hope you don't always jump to conclusions that quickly. So now you have no more rats, and one fat snake. NOW, you (or your spouse) might decide that you really don't want a big ole snake hanging around the shop where it might startle you while you're using the fly cutter on your instrument panel or something. SO, now you should do what any sane person would do: buy a king snake. King snakes eat other snakes, as you might be aware. And they'll also finish up any rats that the rat snake missed. Mice too, even though you don't have any. King snakes aren't rodent snobs. Now you have an even bigger king snake to deal with. What to do? Well, duh... get on eBay and put a bid in on a mongoose. Mongeese (?) eat snakes, as everyone knows. Any old mongoose should do... well, they hunt in teams, so better get three. Don't want to interrupt a natural behavior that's been highly tuned and developed over the last few thousand years now, do we? Good. I don't know how to pick a good mongoose from a bad one, but I'm sure that you can get on Google and find out. Or just go to "www.howtopickareallygoodmongooseforyourworkshop.com" or a similar site to help you out. Remember, the key to smart mongoosing is to do your homework. Now, realize that mongoosae (?) are mischievous little critters, and they'll likely cause all sorts of havoc around the farm. So now is a good time to get into the market for a largish hawk. A red-tail or Cooper's hawk would probably be about right, while a chicken hawk or Ethan Hawke is right out. New or used, it doesn't really matter... just make sure it's a live hawk. You might scare the mongoosia pretty bad at first with a cheap dead hawk, but sooner or later they'll catch on, and be right back to their old tricks. And then, they won't even respect you for trying to trick them with a dead hawk. Plus you're stuck with a stinky, dead bird of prey on your hands... you'll be lucky if you can sell it for as much as you paid. Avoid this common trap that inexperienced raptor buyers often fall into, and buy a live hawk to start with. Some hawk hawkers may try to sell you a hawk in a coma or drunken stupor or an otherwise not entirely well bird, at a reduced price. This can be a dangerous gamble, and I don't recommend taking this risk except for those who really know what they're doing. The Better Birding Bureau (BBB) is rife with reports of shady and unscrupulous hawkers offering inferior predatory poultry to rookie raptor requisitioners. Once a suitable hawk has been obtained, set it out on teh back fencepost and see if it will try to catch the mongooses. The hawk, however, will need lots of room to perch, fly, catch prey, etc. so be sure to keep him outside at all times. He could actually fly away, however. To help keep him around your house (you never know when he'll leave to hunt for your neighbor's mongoose, which is just poor form and considered quite rude, unless they actually invite you to share in their personal weaseldom) you need to get a couple of rabbits. Umm, wait a minute... we have 3 pet rabbits, and I'd really hate to think of a cute little bunny getting eaten by a hawk, or anything else for that matter. Which is even scarier since a lot of things have been known to eat rabbits, including mongooses. So on second thought, keep the bunnies indoors. They make great house pets, they're more affectionate than a cat (a lot smarter, too) and they'll probably get along with the dogs just fine. Heck, ours think they ARE dogs. With luck you might even train a particularly ambitious bunny to help you round up cattle. But I digress. So go buy some baby quail chicks instead. They don't cost much and they'll keep the hawk coming around. They're also not terribly noisy. The quail which manage to survive the hawks, mongii (?), and king snakes will probably reproduce like crazy, seeing as how they live on a nice big grain farm and all. But that's OK. Since I somehow forgot to mention the finer points of living with house rabbits a couple of paragraphs ago, and your attention has been diverted with ordering and raising your quail chicks, I suspect that by now you're realizing that you REALLY should have had at least one of your original two rabbits fixed as a couple dozen of their descendants have now magically appeared. They're all cute, and thank the good Lord above that they're litter-trained, but honestly... they're starting to eat you out of house and home, and you're starting to have litter and chew toys delivered on pallets. Worse, they're jumping all over the furniture when company comes over, they're molting all over the carpet, and they like to nip at your toes when you don't scratch their foreheads fast enough. You need a break from the long-eared hordes, don't you? So go grab your gun, walk outside with the dog (he needs a break from his new friends too, who like him but have affectionately licked his forehead to the point he's got bald spots) and flush out some quail. Shoot at them. Try not to hit the hawk, as that's illegal in most states. Don't hit the dog, either, that's just plain wrong. Ahh, that's better... and now you have a nice quail dinner to boot. Too bad there's no salad to go with it, since the bunnies smelled lettuce and managed to pry open the refrigerator door while you were outside. By the time dinner's over, you find that you have fifty-seven more rabbits in the bedroom alone. It takes an hour and forty-five minutes to herd them all into their hutch (the entire second floor of your 12-room farmhouse) for the night, and you're really starting to miss being able to enjoy your "CSI: Spring Valley" reruns on Thursday nights. As the commotion upstairs finally dies down to a dull roar of thumps, scratching, jumping, and the gentle sound of chewing on hay, you are finally able to drop off into an exhausted slumber, slumped in your rabbit-chewed, carrot-stained easy chair under a picture of a Pietenpol. And as you drift quickly off to Dreamland, you quietly long for the good old days, when your biggest worry in life was having a couple of glue-snorting rats wandering through the workshop... -Mike Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: Rats!
By the time you finish buying the managery this guy is talking about ,you won't be able to afford a Piet anyways.Open up a zoo and charge people to come in to see every other animal eating each other.You won't have time for the Piet either.You'll be too busy running all you new business's.I gotta go back and read this again because I keep forgetting who ate who and what you have to get next.Buy a South American Anaconda and you won't have anything left alive including yourself!HAHAHAHA!Great story.Almost as much fun as hearing about Piets! Mike Whaley wrote: > > > Ken Chambers wrote: > > > the rats have dragged the T-88 Part B Hardener away and > > chewed up the bottle. I thought I had them all killed off > > OK, here's whatcha do: > > First off, buy a snake. A large rat snake, perhaps. Snakes eat rats. Rat > snakes are a pretty sure bet for eating rats. Unless it's a small rat snake. > Then they'll only eat mice. But strangely, there's no such thing as a mouse > snake. You'd think a small rat snake would be a mouse snake, but it's not. > It's just a small rat snake. Which should be just fine with you, though, > since you have a rat problem, not a mouse problem. There's a difference > between the two, you know. Mice are the cuter of the two. > > Anyway, release your rat snake into your shop, and wait a month or two for > him to eat all the rats. You'll probably rarely see the snake, and > eventually you won't see any rats. You won't see any mice, either. But don't > jump to conclusions and assume that your big rat snake also ate your mice. > Especially considering that you didn't see any mice in the first place. I > sure hope you don't always jump to conclusions that quickly. > > So now you have no more rats, and one fat snake. NOW, you (or your spouse) > might decide that you really don't want a big ole snake hanging around the > shop where it might startle you while you're using the fly cutter on your > instrument panel or something. SO, now you should do what any sane person > would do: buy a king snake. King snakes eat other snakes, as you might be > aware. And they'll also finish up any rats that the rat snake missed. Mice > too, even though you don't have any. King snakes aren't rodent snobs. > > Now you have an even bigger king snake to deal with. What to do? Well, > duh... get on eBay and put a bid in on a mongoose. Mongeese (?) eat snakes, > as everyone knows. Any old mongoose should do... well, they hunt in teams, > so better get three. Don't want to interrupt a natural behavior that's been > highly tuned and developed over the last few thousand years now, do we? > Good. I don't know how to pick a good mongoose from a bad one, but I'm sure > that you can get on Google and find out. Or just go to > "www.howtopickareallygoodmongooseforyourworkshop.com" or a similar site to > help you out. Remember, the key to smart mongoosing is to do your homework. > > Now, realize that mongoosae (?) are mischievous little critters, and they'll > likely cause all sorts of havoc around the farm. So now is a good time to > get into the market for a largish hawk. A red-tail or Cooper's hawk would > probably be about right, while a chicken hawk or Ethan Hawke is right out. > New or used, it doesn't really matter... just make sure it's a live hawk. > You might scare the mongoosia pretty bad at first with a cheap dead hawk, > but sooner or later they'll catch on, and be right back to their old tricks. > And then, they won't even respect you for trying to trick them with a dead > hawk. Plus you're stuck with a stinky, dead bird of prey on your hands... > you'll be lucky if you can sell it for as much as you paid. Avoid this > common trap that inexperienced raptor buyers often fall into, and buy a live > hawk to start with. Some hawk hawkers may try to sell you a hawk in a coma > or drunken stupor or an otherwise not entirely well bird, at a reduced > price. This can be a dangerous gamble, and I don't recommend taking this > risk except for those who really know what they're doing. The Better Birding > Bureau (BBB) is rife with reports of shady and unscrupulous hawkers offering > inferior predatory poultry to rookie raptor requisitioners. > > Once a suitable hawk has been obtained, set it out on teh back fencepost and > see if it will try to catch the mongooses. The hawk, however, will need lots > of room to perch, fly, catch prey, etc. so be sure to keep him outside at > all times. He could actually fly away, however. To help keep him around your > house (you never know when he'll leave to hunt for your neighbor's mongoose, > which is just poor form and considered quite rude, unless they actually > invite you to share in their personal weaseldom) you need to get a couple of > rabbits. > > Umm, wait a minute... we have 3 pet rabbits, and I'd really hate to think of > a cute little bunny getting eaten by a hawk, or anything else for that > matter. Which is even scarier since a lot of things have been known to eat > rabbits, including mongooses. So on second thought, keep the bunnies > indoors. They make great house pets, they're more affectionate than a cat (a > lot smarter, too) and they'll probably get along with the dogs just fine. > Heck, ours think they ARE dogs. With luck you might even train a > particularly ambitious bunny to help you round up cattle. But I digress. > > So go buy some baby quail chicks instead. They don't cost much and they'll > keep the hawk coming around. They're also not terribly noisy. > > The quail which manage to survive the hawks, mongii (?), and king snakes > will probably reproduce like crazy, seeing as how they live on a nice big > grain farm and all. But that's OK. Since I somehow forgot to mention the > finer points of living with house rabbits a couple of paragraphs ago, and > your attention has been diverted with ordering and raising your quail > chicks, I suspect that by now you're realizing that you REALLY should have > had at least one of your original two rabbits fixed as a couple dozen of > their descendants have now magically appeared. They're all cute, and thank > the good Lord above that they're litter-trained, but honestly... they're > starting to eat you out of house and home, and you're starting to have > litter and chew toys delivered on pallets. Worse, they're jumping all over > the furniture when company comes over, they're molting all over the carpet, > and they like to nip at your toes when you don't scratch their foreheads > fast enough. You need a break from the long-eared hordes, don't you? > > So go grab your gun, walk outside with the dog (he needs a break from his > new friends too, who like him but have affectionately licked his forehead to > the point he's got bald spots) and flush out some quail. Shoot at them. Try > not to hit the hawk, as that's illegal in most states. Don't hit the dog, > either, that's just plain wrong. > > Ahh, that's better... and now you have a nice quail dinner to boot. Too bad > there's no salad to go with it, since the bunnies smelled lettuce and > managed to pry open the refrigerator door while you were outside. By the > time dinner's over, you find that you have fifty-seven more rabbits in the > bedroom alone. It takes an hour and forty-five minutes to herd them all into > their hutch (the entire second floor of your 12-room farmhouse) for the > night, and you're really starting to miss being able to enjoy your "CSI: > Spring Valley" reruns on Thursday nights. > > As the commotion upstairs finally dies down to a dull roar of thumps, > scratching, jumping, and the gentle sound of chewing on hay, you are finally > able to drop off into an exhausted slumber, slumped in your rabbit-chewed, > carrot-stained easy chair under a picture of a Pietenpol. > > And as you drift quickly off to Dreamland, you quietly long for the good old > days, when your biggest worry in life was having a couple of glue-snorting > rats wandering through the workshop... > > -Mike > > Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net > Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association > http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: tbyh(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 01/25/06
Speaking of rats, I recommend an old movie called "King Rat." Came out in the 1960s and stars George Segal. About some Allied POWs in a Japanese prison camp. They raise rats...I'd tell you what they do with the rats, but it would spoil the movie for you...aside from the POW's situation, a very homorous movie as I recall. No snow here in the American Siberia. We had several days below zero back in December -- I've only been out ice fishing once this winter -- but since New Years it has been consistently in the 30s every day and today we expect to hit 40 degrees. Warmest January on record. Generally we've had a day or two of minus 10 to 20 degrees by now. As for my Piet I hope to install the last landing gear strut fitting on the fuselage this weekend, then the struts and then should have it on the wheels soon after that. I went ahead and bought a pair of Harley "Fat Boy" disk wheels -- I think they will look great and are plenty strong (maybe a little heavy), but you never know, I could change my mind and go with spoked wheels after all... Keep on building! Fred Beseler La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Subject: Re: Rats!
my wife uses a bar of stuff called first bite it kills the rats but wont hurt the dogs and cats tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Static Load Testing
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Malcolm, I graduated with engineering degree but it was a long, long time ago. And my current occupation does not require this expertise. So I am a little rusty. Anyway see attached schematics of loads on struts and wings. (a picture tells more than a thousand words) They are very generic and based on static loads. I did make one on your setup also, at least what I understand your setup to be. Just to see the difference. You have a increased load of 40% on your cabane struts! And a decrease on the wing struts of 10% Of course I assumed some dimensions but please consider that not all loads are vertical! I am not sure I understand what you mean by elliptical lift distribution, you mean cord wise or span wise? Span wise would be wrong as a rectangular wing (without washout) would be a linear load. (equal on every foot / rib) Cord wise you could consider elliptical. I assumed the front spar to carry 75% of the load. Assumptions on the center section creating lift are only that. The center section is far less efficient than the wings. Prop-wash, struts, wires and windscreens will see to that. But for the purpose of simplicity I am OK with it. Another thought to keep in mind: all calculation are based on Gross weight. But of course the only thing hanging on the struts is the complete fuselage. The wing weight could be deducted but for simplicity sake, I used the gross number. Any comments are welcome, but keep in mind, these are very generic. I based the my calcs on no-washout, no dihedral, 24 inch cabane struts. Hans (See attached file: load test.pdf) "Malcolm Morrison" Sent by: cc owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron Subject ics.com RE: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing 01/25/2006 09:46 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Rich, Hans I am an engineer, but not the kind that counts. I work in software and systems, not aerodynamics or structures. So, please take that into account when you consider any structural assumptions that I make. I ran some numbers on the forces on a Piet wing today and this is what I came up with. Assuming an 1100 lb airplane at 3 Gs, or 3300 lbs, and a rectangular wing exhibiting an elliptical lift distribution. A plans built center section would provide 293 lbs of lift, and each wing panel would provide 1503.5 lbs of lift. The pull force on the cabanes from the center section would be 146.5 for each side. With 2 cabanes on each side you could divide this number in half for 73.25 lbs on each cabane if you assume that the front and rear cabanes each receive the same force. The force on the outer panel is a little more complex since the unsupported wing tip induces a torque around the lift strut - wing attach point. The result of this is an additional 248 lbs of upward pull on each cabane pair, for a total of 394.5 lbs This leaves 1255.5 lbs lifting force for each wing panel at the lift strut attach points. My modification of making a 4 foot center section will have very little affect on these forces. The wider center section has more lifting force than the plans version, but the shorter wing panels induce less torque, and less additional upward force on the cabanes. The cabane struts will be subject to 401 lbs pull on each pair (a 2% increase over plans), and the lift struts will have a 1249 lbs pull (0.4% decrease). These forces affect the fuselage structure in two ways. First, the wing center section is trying to pull itself upward, off the fuselage. The cabane struts, wires, attach points, and fuselage structure work against this pull, which is 800 lbs. To test this structure I would need to support the fuselage upside down from points where the forces are exerted on the fuselage structure. This could be the bottom of the cabane mounts, the cockpit floor, and possible the firewall. I don't think that tail should be supported since The other force comes from the wing panels pulling upward at 1255.5 lbs each. This results in an outward pull at the fuselage - lift strut attach point of 2188 lbs each (only 1724 lbs each on the modified version due to the shorter panels). To test this I could rest the inverted center section on a box and load the wing panels appropriately. I have doubled size of the steel strap since I'm using a 'V' strut arrangement and there is only one strap. I will keep the cross strap attached to the ash cross member with additional short straps. Anybody agree, disagree with these numbers or thoughts ;-) Malcolm http://users.adelphia.net/~morrisons5/piet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Nav questions
Hello, Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. thanks, Ben Ramler EAA # 793475 --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Nav questions
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Good for you, Ben, on joining the EAA. I use a Garmin GPSMap 196 in my Pietenpol. Got me from Raleigh, NC to Brodhead, Oshkosh and back home via west Tennessee last summer. 2,147 miles of flying. Put 37 hours on the airplane. GPS is great for getting through the mountains, because you can deviate from your course to go around a ridge or follow a valley, and still find your way back on course. Of course it is also useful for finding favorable winds (on that trip, flying from Oshkosh to Jackson Tennessee, I managed to do 95 knots groundspeed most of the way. Amazing what a 30 knot tailwind can do for you!). Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions Hello, Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. thanks, Ben Ramler EAA # 793475 _____ <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mailstorage/*http:/mail.yahoo.c om/> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kirk Huizenga <kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org>
Subject: Digital Sectionals & Terminals
Date: Jan 26, 2006
I just received and set of digital sectional charts (tif format with world file imbedded) and am willing to upload the ones that you are interested in to mykitplane.com. Let me know which ones (please don't say all - I don't want to take the time to do them all and I don't want to overextend my welcome on the mykitplane server). These are current charts. If you don't care about that you can find all of them at http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/ My files will be at http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm? AlbumID=76 Kirk -------- Kirk Huizenga Community Expert kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org 651.482.8203 my views are not necessarily the view of my employer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Nav questions
Hi Jack and everyone else, Heres why I asked what I did. Right now i own a Magellan GPS315. The bad this is that I can not find anyone who carries software for this GPS anymore! I don't even have a serial cable for it! So I was thinking about retiring it and getting a more advaced one! However the GPSMAP 196 is 800 smackers to much but nice GPS "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Good for you, Ben, on joining the EAA. I use a Garmin GPSMap 196 in my Pietenpol. Got me from Raleigh, NC to Brodhead, Oshkosh and back home via west Tennessee last summer. 2,147 miles of flying. Put 37 hours on the airplane. GPS is great for getting through the mountains, because you can deviate from your course to go around a ridge or follow a valley, and still find your way back on course. Of course it is also useful for finding favorable winds (on that trip, flying from Oshkosh to Jackson Tennessee, I managed to do 95 knots groundspeed most of the way. Amazing what a 30 knot tailwind can do for you!). Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions Hello, Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. thanks, Ben Ramler EAA # 793475 --------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Nav questions
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Ben, while I was building my Pietenpol I owned a 1947 Cessna 140 that I flew all over North Carolina with a $99 Magellan GPS that I bought at Wal-Mart, made for hikers. It worked fine - just didn't have all the bells and whistels of the Garmin. If you just input lat and long from a sectional, such a GPS will take you wherever you want to go. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:25 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions Hi Jack and everyone else, Heres why I asked what I did. Right now i own a Magellan GPS315. The bad this is that I can not find anyone who carries software for this GPS anymore! I don't even have a serial cable for it! So I was thinking about retiring it and getting a more advaced one! However the GPSMAP 196 is 800 smackers to much but nice GPS "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Good for you, Ben, on joining the EAA. I use a Garmin GPSMap 196 in my Pietenpol. Got me from Raleigh, NC to Brodhead, Oshkosh and back home via west Tennessee last summer. 2,147 miles of flying. Put 37 hours on the airplane. GPS is great for getting through the mountains, because you can deviate from your course to go around a ridge or follow a valley, and still find your way back on course. Of course it is also useful for finding favorable winds (on that trip, flying from Oshkosh to Jackson Tennessee, I managed to do 95 knots groundspeed most of the way. Amazing what a 30 knot tailwind can do for you!). Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager , Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:59 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions Hello, Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. thanks, Ben Ramler EAA # 793475 =09 _____ <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mailstorage/*http:/mail.yahoo.c om/> _____ <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mailstorage/*http:/mail.yahoo.c om/> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Nav questions
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Ben, I use a simple handheld Garmin eTtrex Vista cost less than $ 300.-- Has Compass, Altimeter and all the basic GPS stuff. Plots your track both vertical and on map. I have it on during my test flights, afterwards I can review the flight and write down the climb rates and descent rates. If it had engine recording and voice recorder it would be a true black box. The eTrex is not for aviation use, but has everything I need. Hans Ben Ramler To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Nav questions 01/26/2006 10:59 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hello, Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. thanks, Ben Ramler EAA # 793475 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Nav questions
Ben, I use an Airmap 500, mounted on the cabane with the RAM mount that came with the GPS. It works great, and was great when I was learning to fly the plane across 800 miles unfamiliar territory. Here is a picture of the GPS, climbing out of Siloam Springs, AR, last April. Note the groundspeed, 25.9MPH, at cruise RPM (2,350RPM, A-75). http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2005AprilPietTrip/DSC01413.jpg Had a slight headwind that day. It was day three of owning my plane, and I still had the GPS strapped to my leg. Definitely don't get anything bigger than an AirMap 500, it won't fit in the cockpit. I don't know what I'd do with an Airmap 1000 in there. Steve Ruse N6383J - Norman, OK > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben > Ramler > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:59 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions > > > Hello, > > > Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was > wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was > looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I > would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. > > > thanks, > > > Ben Ramler > > EAA # 793475 > > _____ > > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mailstorage/*http:/mail.yahoo.c > om/> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: "Scott S." <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: I'm in!!
After checking out several planes/plans and sizing up the pros and cons of each, I've decided to get started on the Pietenpol. Notice I didn't say I was building one, as that's huge task and anybody can talk about it, but I feel the proof is in the pudding. Once it starts to look like an airplane and I've convinced myself I'll finish it, then I'll claim the builder title. So many people start projects they never finish and I don't wanna take anything away from the persistent souls who actually do. I've got the rib materials and some 4130 strips on order. That oughta keep me busy for awhile with a minimum investment, while I get the wife primed to accept the full blown airplane idea. And if the project falls flat, figure I can sell a quality set of Piet ribs and a few fittings and at least recoup materials cost. Plan to attend Brodhead and hope to beg, borrow, or steal a ride in a Model A Piet, as that's the version I plan to "dabble" in. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl" <skycarl@buckeye-express.com>
Subject: piet for sale again
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Greetings All, It's been a while since I have posted, although I still love reading the posts all of you put in here. Last year, because of my health, I decided to try to sell my piet project. I put it on Ebay and got a buyer but he backed out after the auction was over. This left me mixed feelings, great I still have it and POed because he blew others off that were bidding also. Anyway, I have decided again that as much as I want to finish it and fly it, I'm not physically capable anymore of doing that. So, I have decided to ask in here first if anyone is looking for a project that needs work,( been in the hanger for two years now) and looking rough, but it has a good corvair on it with prop, all instruments, horrible paint job, but has great potential to give someone a great finishing project and years of fun flying. I will have to dig out some pics of it, but some old pics of when I was building it can be found here, http://members.core.com/~skycarl/pietpage1.html I am asking 3500$ for it. The buyer will have to go and pull the wings and trailer it home. I would rather see it bought here than on ebay so I will wait a while before going that route. It is currently hangered at Betz airfield, Blissfield Michigan... about 30miles nw of Toledo, OH. Take care all Carl Loar ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I'm in!!
From: Rob Riggen <rob(at)riggen.org>
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Check out http://www.expercraft.com It's a great (and free) site for keeping track of your progress as you build. Time and expenses can be tracked. It creates and hosts a Web site automatically, too! Happy building! Rob > After checking out several planes/plans and sizing up the pros and > cons of each, I've decided to get started on the Pietenpol. Notice I > didn't say I was building one, as that's huge task and anybody can > talk about it, but I feel the proof is in the pudding. Once it starts > to look like an airplane and I've convinced myself I'll finish it, > then I'll claim the builder title. So many people start projects they > never finish and I don't wanna take anything away from the persistent > souls who actually do. > > I've got the rib materials and some 4130 strips on order. That oughta > keep me busy for awhile with a minimum investment, while I get the > wife primed to accept the full blown airplane idea. And if the > project falls flat, figure I can sell a quality set of Piet ribs and a > few fittings and at least recoup materials cost. > > Plan to attend Brodhead and hope to beg, borrow, or steal a ride in a > Model A Piet, as that's the version I plan to "dabble" in. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Welcome, Scott !
Congratulations on deciding to get into a Pietenpol project. Nothing says you have to finish it but no matter how far you go it is a great learning experience in homebuilding---a far richer experience and depth-of-knowledge curve than most kit builders experience I think. Are you a pilot ? I'm always amazed at some builders who start building without at least a student pilot license or more--but there is that section of Piet enthusiast out there. Then again some just like building without being concerned if they ever actually fly the creation or solo in anything for that matter. Whatever the ranks you are from, this list is a very good resource for encouragement, tips, hearing more than one way to approach and solve a particular building or decision making issue that you might face. Build light, climb better ! And lastly, the group is tired of me plugging the homebuilding book series available thru EAA by Tony Bingelis, but that was the best 80 bucks I ever spent during the entire construction of my airplane. There are lots of people things have heard that are not true but they continue to repeat them...old wives tales they call them, or there might be six different ways to fasten a fitting to a hunk of wood, but some will claim only one true way....don't listen to everything you read or hear--check with the Book of Bingelis for the real deal ! http://shop.eaa.org/html/04_books_bingelis.html?cart_id Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Welcome, Scott !
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Mike speaks truth, Scott. The Bingelis books are the BIBLE for scratchbuilding. Besides, they are interesting and fun to read. It is good that you are wary of bragging about building a plane when you haven't even started yet. Only about 10% to 25% of started projects ever fly. I'm always leery of new builders who talk about how they are going to paint their ships before they make their first pile of sawdust. Just don't let yourself get overwhelmed with it - rather than looking at the enormity of the project, break it up into a series of small projects, like building a rib jig, then making a rib, then making 29 more ribs. Try to do a little bit (even if it is just looking at the plans and planning what you will do next) every day and the project will go faster, and smoother. Every time you stop for a few weeks it is hard to get started again, and you will forget where you are in the process and end up doing some things over. The other thing is to not get frustrated when you screw up a part. Just make it over and remember that a large part of doing a project like this is education. I'm sure I could build anopther Pietenpol in half the time and about 2/3 the cost of the one I built, just becasue I learned how to do things on the first one. I've got a large cardboard box full of scrap parts that I made, then discarded. If you are not satisfied with a part, make it over rather than worry if that part will hold together when flying in rough air. Lastly, enjoy the project. I enjoyed building mine, and now I'm thinking of building another airplane just because I enjoy having an airplane project in my basement. Have fun and good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Welcome, Scott ! Congratulations on deciding to get into a Pietenpol project. Nothing says you have to finish it but no matter how far you go it is a great learning experience in homebuilding---a far richer experience and depth-of-knowledge curve than most kit builders experience I think. Are you a pilot ? I'm always amazed at some builders who start building without at least a student pilot license or more--but there is that section of Piet enthusiast out there. Then again some just like building without being concerned if they ever actually fly the creation or solo in anything for that matter. Whatever the ranks you are from, this list is a very good resource for encouragement, tips, hearing more than one way to approach and solve a particular building or decision making issue that you might face. Build light, climb better ! And lastly, the group is tired of me plugging the homebuilding book series available thru EAA by Tony Bingelis, but that was the best 80 bucks I ever spent during the entire construction of my airplane. There are lots of people things have heard that are not true but they continue to repeat them...old wives tales they call them, or there might be six different ways to fasten a fitting to a hunk of wood, but some will claim only one true way....don't listen to everything you read or hear--check with the Book of Bingelis for the real deal ! http://shop.eaa.org/html/04_books_bingelis.html?cart_id Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: "Scott S." <covertspecialops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome, Scott !
I'm still trying to get a good handle on how the plane is put together, what fittings go where, etc. Once I can get my nose outta the plans, I'll check out the Bingelis books. Fortunately, found one at the local library already. I've built enough stuff to know saying it is one thing; following through is another. Built a nice set of Mini-Max wings about 10 yrs ago (sold them) but never could keep much interest because it's only a single-seater, although I really like the plane. The Piet satisfies the need for extra seat, plus I LOVE the nostalgia aspect. That's one thing that kept me coming back to the Piet. Last flew in '93, got instrument rating in grad school and decided I didn't like that kinda flying. Too procedural, not enough stick and rudder, low and slow, fair weather stuff. Got involved in other interests, then realized about a year ago that if I was ever gonna build a plane I'd best get started. If I'm lucky enough to live the standard 77.8 years, that gives me 10 years to build the Piet then another 10-15 to fly it before getting a med certificate might be kinda tough. Not that you can predict that sorta thing of course, ya just gotta plan as best ya can. ;-) On 1/26/06, Phillips, Jack wrote: > > Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> > > Mike speaks truth, Scott. The Bingelis books are the BIBLE for > scratchbuilding. Besides, they are interesting and fun to read. > > It is good that you are wary of bragging about building a plane when you > haven't even started yet. Only about 10% to 25% of started projects > ever fly. I'm always leery of new builders who talk about how they are > going to paint their ships before they make their first pile of sawdust. > Just don't let yourself get overwhelmed with it - rather than looking at > the enormity of the project, break it up into a series of small > projects, like building a rib jig, then making a rib, then making 29 > more ribs. > > Try to do a little bit (even if it is just looking at the plans and > planning what you will do next) every day and the project will go > faster, and smoother. Every time you stop for a few weeks it is hard to > get started again, and you will forget where you are in the process and > end up doing some things over. > > The other thing is to not get frustrated when you screw up a part. Just > make it over and remember that a large part of doing a project like this > is education. I'm sure I could build anopther Pietenpol in half the > time and about 2/3 the cost of the one I built, just becasue I learned > how to do things on the first one. I've got a large cardboard box full > of scrap parts that I made, then discarded. If you are not satisfied > with a part, make it over rather than worry if that part will hold > together when flying in rough air. > > Lastly, enjoy the project. I enjoyed building mine, and now I'm > thinking of building another airplane just because I enjoy having an > airplane project in my basement. > > Have fun and good luck! > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael > D Cuy > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:51 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Welcome, Scott ! > > > > Congratulations on deciding to get into a Pietenpol project. Nothing > says > you have to finish it but no matter how > far you go it is a great learning experience in homebuilding---a far > richer > experience and depth-of-knowledge curve than > most kit builders experience I think. > > Are you a pilot ? I'm always amazed at some builders who start > building > without at least a student pilot license or > more--but there is that section of Piet enthusiast out there. Then > again > some just like building without being concerned > if they ever actually fly the creation or solo in anything for that > matter. > > Whatever the ranks you are from, this list is a very good resource for > encouragement, tips, hearing more than one way > to approach and solve a particular building or decision making issue > that > you might face. > > Build light, climb better ! > > And lastly, the group is tired of me plugging the homebuilding book > series > available thru EAA by Tony Bingelis, but > that was the best 80 bucks I ever spent during the entire construction > of > my airplane. > > There are lots of people things have heard that are not true but they > continue to repeat them...old wives tales > they call them, or there might be six different ways to fasten a fitting > to > a hunk of wood, but some will claim > only one true way....don't listen to everything you read or hear--check > with the Book of Bingelis for the real deal ! > > http://shop.eaa.org/html/04_books_bingelis.html?cart_id=3D > > Mike C. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Nav questions
Steve one other question for you. What did your GPS come with? Ben, I use an Airmap 500, mounted on the cabane with the RAM mount that came with the GPS. It works great, and was great when I was learning to fly the plane across 800 miles unfamiliar territory. Here is a picture of the GPS, climbing out of Siloam Springs, AR, last April. Note the groundspeed, 25.9MPH, at cruise RPM (2,350RPM, A-75). http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2005AprilPietTrip/DSC01413.jpg Had a slight headwind that day. It was day three of owning my plane, and I still had the GPS strapped to my leg. Definitely don't get anything bigger than an AirMap 500, it won't fit in the cockpit. I don't know what I'd do with an Airmap 1000 in there. Steve Ruse N6383J - Norman, OK > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben > Ramler > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:59 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions > > > Hello, > > > Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was > wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was > looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I > would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. > > > thanks, > > > Ben Ramler > > EAA # 793475 > > _____ > > > om/> > > --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Subject: Re: Welcome, Scott !
In a message dated 1/26/2006 2:52:22 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov writes: And lastly, the group is tired of me plugging the homebuilding book series available thru EAA by Tony Bingelis, but that was the best 80 bucks I ever spent during the entire construction of my airplane. And don't forget the AC 43-13, also available thru the EAA. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: I'm in!!
Cc: "Scott S." Hi, I decided to start mine in November and in the past couple of weeks a few more people have taken the plunge. I have to say, I have never had a project consume me the way this one has. I carry it around with me in my head everywhere I go and I haven't stopped thinking about it since the first inclination back in August. My wife has finally accepted this project as part of our lives (and the house). I compare it to rockclimbing where looking at the rest of the work is like looking down. I'm just going focus on finishing one thing at a time. My wing wood will be here Monday so this weekend will be partially devoted to completing the rib jig. The people in this group have really made this project seem possible. They are very encouraging and have an incredible depth of expertise on all topics. Hope you have as much fun as I'm having. Welcome, Glenn ---- "Scott S." wrote: > After checking out several planes/plans and sizing up the pros and cons of > each, I've decided to get started on the Pietenpol. Notice I didn't say I > was building one, as that's huge task and anybody can talk about it, but I > feel the proof is in the pudding. Once it starts to look like an airplane > and I've convinced myself I'll finish it, then I'll claim the builder > title. So many people start projects they never finish and I don't wanna > take anything away from the persistent souls who actually do. > > I've got the rib materials and some 4130 strips on order. That oughta keep > me busy for awhile with a minimum investment, while I get the wife primed to > accept the full blown airplane idea. And if the project falls flat, figure > I can sell a quality set of Piet ribs and a few fittings and at least > recoup materials cost. > > Plan to attend Brodhead and hope to beg, borrow, or steal a ride in a Model > A Piet, as that's the version I plan to "dabble" in. :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Malcolm Morrison" <morrisons5(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Static Load Testing
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Thanks for the response Hans As far as the elliptical lift distribution is concerned, here is how I understand it. From "The Illustrated Guide to Aerodynamics" comes the following explanation. If a wing had infinite length, then the lift at each station spanwise would be the same. But because we have finite length wings, we have the effect of vortices. Vortices are strongest at the tips where some of the high pressure air under the wing flows around the wing tip to the upper surface. This gradually reduces the lift as you move spanwise toward the tips. The resulting distribution is an elliptical pattern, with more lift produced at the inboard stations relative to the outer stations. This is consistent with other aerodynamic books that I have looked at. Do you have contrary documentation? Are there any other aerodynamic type guys listening that can help solve this riddle? Thanks Malcolm http://users.adelphia.net/~morrisons5/piet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Nav questions
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Ben I have an old GPS II. It gives me the basic functions. I was having some reception problems but solved it by removing the antenna and attaching a 5 ft. extension and mounting the antenna to the top of the wing. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions Hello, Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. thanks, Ben Ramler EAA # 793475 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Welcome, Scott !
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Hi Mike, I'm building for the Corvair motor and I'm using William Wynne's manual and information to build my motor. I was wondering if the 2 Bingelis books Firewall Forward, and Engines are something I can get by without. After reading your last reference to the importance of these books I'm going to go ahead and get them but wondered if I could get by with just Sportplane Builder and Sportplane Construction. Continental guys probably frown on Corvairs but, for me, the price is right. Also, do you still have the building and flying video? The last thing I looked at before I finally came down off the fence and decided to start building was a picture of your plane on AVWeb in Matt Paxton's article. ...now the process is underway! I never would have thought I'd run into the builder of that plane. If you still have them I'd love to get one. Thanks, Glenn Thomas http://www.flyingwood.com -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=7149#7149 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Sherburn" <dsherburn(at)charter.net>
Subject: C85 for trade
Date: Jan 26, 2006
All, I purchased a Luscombe 8A that has a good running C85-12 engine. The Luscombe was originally certified with an A-65 and requires a more complicated fuel system to "feed" the C85. I'd like to get the Luscombe back to original condition. As such, I'd like to trade the C85-12 (all accesorries, but no prop) for a decent, mid-time A65 with wooden prop. The C85 has 440 hrs STOH and 1012 SMOH. It came off an Ercoupe and has the log books. Email me if you have an A65 you might like to trade and I'll have emailable pictures late this weekend. Thanks in advance, Dan Sherburn Spring Lake, MI dsherburn(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Piet needed for photo project
Hi all. Im in the Pittsburgh area and am looking at a project involving a Piet. Im a photographer that is looking for someone that would be willing to allow an image of their Piet for items like a coffee cups, sweat shirts and the like as well as a fine art type print. If its something you are interested in drop me a note off list Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HVandervoo(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 2006
Subject: Re: Static Load Testing
Malcolm, I stand corrected, yes I did forget about those tip vortexes. Must be that winglet Pietenpol wing I was thinking about. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)AOL.COM
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Subject: Re: Nav questions
In a message dated 1/26/2006 6:29:49 PM Central Standard Time, horzpool(at)goldengate.net writes: attaching a 5 ft. extension and mounting the antenna to the top of the wing. That's the only location that I can get unobstructed reception. I have an old Magellon SkyBlazer, that I can't get updates for, but works just fine. It even saved my bacon a couple of times. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Subject: Re: Rat clarification (ate my glue follow up...)
me too sterling i have 150 rabbits tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Firewall Forward & Bingelis on Engines
Glenn & group, It was funny to read your post saying that things go thru your mind pretty much all the time regarding the Pietenpol construction. I can't tell you how many times I was out and about like sitting in a doctors office, attending some meeting or conference, doing bills at my desk at home, and I'd be sketching out an idea, then another idea or design, and let it gel in my mind for a few days before ultimately deciding on how to tackle a step like fuel tank shape, trim ideas, instrument layout, brake pedal arrangement and more. I saved all of those notes and when I look back I realize why I selected certain designs over other chicken scratch ideas. That portion of the project---being creative in solving various building issues, was very enjoyable and rewarding. With regard to how relevant the 2 engine books might be to your Corvair installation, I'm sure you could complete your project without having those two books on hand, but I would still very much recommend having them because they will cover other things like how to make, attach, hinge, and properly install a light weight all-aluminum or aluminum/fiberglass cowling and nosebowl. Those books will cover mag timing, prop installation, torquing and safetying your prop--along with selecting the right AN prop bolts. You'll get tips on carbs, carb installation, fabricating a carb air box complete with air filter and carb heat ideas and options...you'll learn how to make your firewall more fire-retardent..you'll learn how to install all of your engine instruments, tach cables,senders,lines, throttle and carb/cabin heat (if you choose) bowden cable runs. He talks about mag timing, proper gascolator location and installation, he covers how to see if your gravity fuel system supplies enough flow at your carburetor---and this test will help you determine what your useable and unusable fuel loads will be----for certain. Okay..end of sermon ! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: A Google idea for new builders and Piet nuts in general
When you are building a scratch-built plane like the Pietenpol, there are so many things you have to decide on and so many personal ways you can make them unique and give your plane character without compromising airworthiness. One of the best ways to see how other builders did things or applied cosmetic engineering or design is to, of course, take your video camera, still camera, tape measure, and note pad to Brodhead for a year, preferably more. For those of you though who have not been to Brodhead or know already that they will not be able to go this summer, there is an excellent way to look at what others have posted photo-wise about their Pietenpols. If you go to Google.com and see all the choices above the box where you enter what you want to search for you'll see "IMAGES". Click on that and then enter things like Pietenpol, Piet, Pietenpol Air Camper, Pietenpol Aircamper, GN-1, Grega, Grega Aircamper, and see what you get......for that matter type in "Model A Ford engine" "Corvair engine"... Type in your old girlfriends name then..and she if she comes up anywhere:)) Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Re: Nav questions
I sent this a couple of days ago but I never saw it on the list...if it has come through twice then I apologize: Ben, I use an Airmap 500, mounted on the cabane with the RAM mount that came with the GPS. It works great, and was great when I was learning to fly the plane across 800 miles unfamiliar territory. Here is a picture of the GPS, climbing out of Siloam Springs, AR, last April. Note the groundspeed, 25.9MPH, at cruise RPM (2,350RPM, A-75). http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2005AprilPietTrip/DSC01413.jpg Had a slight headwind that day. It was day three of owning my plane, and I still had the GPS strapped to my leg. Definitely don't get anything bigger than an AirMap 500, it won't fit in the cockpit. I don't know what I'd do with an Airmap 1000 in there. Steve Ruse N6383J - Norman, OK > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Ramler > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:59 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav questions > > > Hello, > > Seeing how that the Pietenpo Aircamper is really for VFR flights I > was wondering if anybody uses a GPS? If so what kind are using? I was > looking at the Lowarence AirMap 500, Airmap 1000, and a garmin V. > Also I would like to announce that I'm a EAA member as of yesterday. > > thanks, > > Ben Ramler > EAA # 793475 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Subject: Re: Piet needed for photo project
CC: taildrags(at)hotmail.com I have some ground and air to air shots of my old Piet now owned by Oscar Zuniga @ cc above. With his permission I would be pleased to email you several pics Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Piet needed for photo project
Thanks but I wanted to take my own new photos. I appreciate the offer though. ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Cc: taildrags(at)hotmail.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet needed for photo project I have some ground and air to air shots of my old Piet now owned by Oscar Zuniga @ cc above. With his permission I would be pleased to email you several pics Corky ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Westach gauges
Am looking for engine gauges for the Corvair engine going in my Piet. Does anyone have experience with Westach gauges? Seem to cost about the same as Autometer gauges but are specifically for aircraft. Thank you -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: fuel tank
Hello Fellow Piet's: My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in our piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the piet? Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so describe and inform if you would please. Ken Heide Fargo, ND --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: new Piet builders
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Scott, Glenn, you other new builders- It really helps if you provide some idea of where you're located so you can hook up with other builders. City and state are fine (or country, if you're a furriner). Happy building! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: inspection covers in wings, etc
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Hey guys, I'm taping and installing inspection covers etc in my wing in prep for spraying. I'd like to install all the covers I might ever need, so please pipe up with any things you've learned by owning one for a while. What you are glad you did, what you wish you had done. Also, how did you guys fair the opening for the ailerong cable where it exits the wing and goes to the aileron control horn. Thanks, Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: piet for sale again
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Hi Carl Loar...I have had pretty much the same experience. I waited too late in life to start my Piet(s), but the timing was dictated by the passage of the legislation regarding Sport Pilots. I've got two and I doubt I'll ever fly either one, so mine are for sale too. This getting old is great for the independence it brings, but the health issues suck!!!...Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: piet for sale again Greetings All, It's been a while since I have posted, although I still love reading the posts all of you put in here. Last year, because of my health, I decided to try to sell my piet project. I put it on Ebay and got a buyer but he backed out after the auction was over. This left me mixed feelings, great I still have it and POed because he blew others off that were bidding also. Anyway, I have decided again that as much as I want to finish it and fly it, I'm not physically capable anymore of doing that. So, I have decided to ask in here first if anyone is looking for a project that needs work,( been in the hanger for two years now) and looking rough, but it has a good corvair on it with prop, all instruments, horrible paint job, but has great potential to give someone a great finishing project and years of fun flying. I will have to dig out some pics of it, but some old pics of when I was building it can be found here, http://members.core.com/~skycarl/pietpage1.html I am asking 3500$ for it. The buyer will have to go and pull the wings and trailer it home. I would rather see it bought here than on ebay so I will wait a while before going that route. It is currently hangered at Betz airfield, Blissfield Michigan... about 30miles nw of Toledo, OH. Take care all Carl Loar ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: inspection covers in wings, etc
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Hi Douwe, I put an inspection ring everywhere ont he bottom of the wing that I thought I would ever need access. Most will never get cut out, but it is easy to add the rings at this stage - much more difficult once it is painted. I put inspection rings at every location there is a fitting inside the wing - where the drag/anti-drag wires attach, and under the aileron cable pulleys. Since mine is a 3-piece wing, I also put some rings (which were cut open) in line with the places where I needed to re-attach my aileron cables to the centersection. For the places where the cables exit the fabric (ailerons on the wings and rudder and elevators on the fuselage), I made a teardrop shaped piece of aluminum with an elongated hole for the cable and glued it to the fabric with Poly-Tak, then laid a pinked edge piece of fabric over the aluminum. Worked very well. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: inspection covers in wings, etc Hey guys, I'm taping and installing inspection covers etc in my wing in prep for spraying. I'd like to install all the covers I might ever need, so please pipe up with any things you've learned by owning one for a while. What you are glad you did, what you wish you had done. Also, how did you guys fair the opening for the ailerong cable where it exits the wing and goes to the aileron control horn. Thanks, Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Subject: westach gauges
Westach gauges have been around for a long time, so I'm sure you can't go wrong with them. I am using a Westach electric tachometer that I bought from Wicks. It uses a small generator that goes on the tach cable fitting on the engine, then is connected to the gauge by wires, eliminating the necessity of routing a heavy bulky tach cable, (and 90 degree fittings etc,) Leon S. in Ks. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Westach gauges
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Hi Rick I have a Westtach quad guage on my new project. I have Amps, oil press, oil temp and CHT. On the CHT I installed a rotory switch so I can read each cyl. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Westach gauges Am looking for engine gauges for the Corvair engine going in my Piet. Does anyone have experience with Westach gauges? Seem to cost about the same as Autometer gauges but are specifically for aircraft. Thank you -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: new Piet builders
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Hi Everybody. I'm a new as yet unstarted builder gathering information. I live in Jonesport Maine close to the New Brunswick Canada Border. I'm currently staying in Ontario Oregon. I would welcome the chance to see a project up close, anybody in the Idaho, Oregon area? Best regards Steve G >From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: new Piet builders >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:02:58 -0600 > > > >Scott, Glenn, you other new builders- > >It really helps if you provide some idea of where you're located so you can >hook up with other builders. City and state are fine (or country, if >you're a furriner). Happy building! > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Subject: Re: Westach gauges
In a message dated 1/27/2006 11:15:09 AM Central Standard Time, at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: Does anyone have experience with Westach gauges? Rick, I installed Westach CHT and EGT in my panel last summer. Works fine, no squawks. I was planning on dressing warm, and searching the sky for the Absolute ceiling of my plane, in order to do some flying in the Rocky Mountain Bumps. I haven't found the ceiling yet...had 'er up to 6700 msl, forgot to dress warm, too cold & scary up there, pull power and do some steep turns on the way down. I'll be heading back up there this spring. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: fuel tank
I have been looking at the race car fuel cells sold at places like Summit Racing. Here is a 16 gal. model that's made of polyethylene, is made to be crash resistant, has a sump in the bottom, has built in indentations for stainless steel hold down (or up) straps, and uses all AN fittings. And its only $149. http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=3DRCI-2160D&x=3D0&y=3D0&searchinresults=3Dfalse&Ntk=3DKeywordSearch&DDS=3D1&N=3D115&target=3Degnsearch.asp Something like this has got to be far more leak and crash proof than anything I could build. If anyone has used a tank like this in an aircraft let us know. Rick H On 1/27/06, Kenneth M. Heide wrote: > > Hello Fellow Piet's: > > My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in our > piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the piet? > Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so > describe and inform if you would please. > > Ken Heide > Fargo, ND > > > ------------------------------ > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new Piet builders
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2006
I've made a few, probably typical newbie, posts on the list and actually found another builder in Connecticut from this list. This is by far the most sparsely populated part of the country as far as Piet builders go. I'm in Storrs, CT. I've been trying to meet up with the other builder in CT an hour or so from me but synchronizing schedules has been difficult. I would be willing to drive a couple of hours to see one completed or in any stage of the building process. There is one gentleman in New Jersey that I will be meeting up with when things thaw out here. If I find myself having to do some business travel I'll probably be begging for someone in that area to give up some time to show me their plane. I keep a running diary of my project at http://www.flyingwood.com Beware that since I'm just getting started there isn't much there yet but beginning Monday when THE FIRST SHIPMENT OF WOOD ARRIVES!!! I'll actually have some progress to show. Since I'm new to all this (plane building but not necessarily woodworking or mechanics) I thought having a place to display pictures of what I'm doing will give me a way to verify that what I'm doing is considered mainstream. I still have a lot of questions about incremental inspections as I complete different parts of the plane. I'm on frappr and have a profile here in the list. This project is the coolest thing I've ever done and this list is the best resource I could have ever expected to find. Thanks Oscar, Glenn Thomas -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=7437#7437 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Westach gauges
Thanks for the info on the Westach gauges. So, you think getting your Piet up to 6700 ft. is a big deal? The elevation of the airport that I will be flying out of is at 6874 ft! (Meadow Lake near Colorado Springs): http://www.airnav.com/airport/00V So on a 90 degree day the density altitude is around 10,500 ft. and you are still on the ground! And you're not even in the mountains yet. Better get some electric underwear (I already have mine). Rick H Castle Rock, CO On 1/27/06, Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/27/2006 11:15:09 AM Central Standard Time, > at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: > > Does anyone have experience with Westach gauges? > > Rick, > I installed Westach CHT and EGT in my panel last summer. Works fine, no > squawks. I was planning on dressing warm, and searching the sky for the > Absolute ceiling of my plane, in order to do some flying in the Rocky > Mountain Bumps. I haven't found the ceiling yet...had 'er up to 6700 msl, > forgot to dress warm, too cold & scary up there, pull power and do some > steep turns on the way down. I'll be heading back up there this spring. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: fuel tank
Date: Jan 27, 2006
As I recall the EAA Chapter 929 that built all the Newport's (Oregon) used a plastic fuel cell for boats. Someone with a faster connection can you take a look at this web site and see http://www.eaa292.org/noonpatrol.html Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank I have been looking at the race car fuel cells sold at places like Summit Racing. Here is a 16 gal. model that's made of polyethylene, is made to be crash resistant, has a sump in the bottom, has built in indentations for stainless steel hold down (or up) straps, and uses all AN fittings. And its only $149. http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=3DRCI-2160D&x=3D0&y=3D0&searchinresults=3Dfalse&Ntk=3DKeywordSearch&DDS=3D1&N=3D115&target=3Degnsearch.asp Something like this has got to be far more leak and crash proof than anything I could build. If anyone has used a tank like this in an aircraft let us know. Rick H On 1/27/06, Kenneth M. Heide wrote: Hello Fellow Piet's: My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in our piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the piet? Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so describe and inform if you would please. Ken Heide Fargo, ND -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: new Piet builders
Glenn Connecticut could not be more sparse for general aviation and Piet builders that Colorado. What really helps is this newsgroup and all the Piet builder websites and photos available. The best thing to do though is go to the Piet gathering each year at Broadhead the weekend before AirVenture. You can take hundreds of pictures and get every question you can come up with answered. Congrats on getting you project started. On 1/27/06, Glenn Thomas wrote: > > glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> > > I've made a few, probably typical newbie, posts on the list and actually > found another builder in Connecticut from this list. This is by far the > most sparsely populated part of the country as far as Piet builders go. I'm > in Storrs, CT. I've been trying to meet up with the other builder in CT an > hour or so from me but synchronizing schedules has been difficult. I would > be willing to drive a couple of hours to see one completed or in any stage > of the building process. There is one gentleman in New Jersey that I will > be meeting up with when things thaw out here. If I find myself having to do > some business travel I'll probably be begging for someone in that area to > give up some time to show me their plane. > > I keep a running diary of my project at http://www.flyingwood.com > Beware that since I'm just getting started there isn't much there yet but > beginning Monday when THE FIRST SHIPMENT OF WOOD ARRIVES!!! I'll actually > have some progress to show. Since I'm new to all this (plane building but > not necessarily woodworking or mechanics) I thought having a place to > display pictures of what I'm doing will give me a way to verify that what > I'm doing is considered mainstream. I still have a lot of questions about > incremental inspections as I complete different parts of the plane. I'm on > frappr and have a profile here in the list. This project is the coolest > thing I've ever done and this list is the best resource I could have ever > expected to find. > > Thanks Oscar, > > Glenn Thomas > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D7437#7437 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, CO "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: fuel tank
Date: Jan 27, 2006
found it go here http://www.eaa292.org/noon_patrol/feb_02.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Catdesign To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank As I recall the EAA Chapter 929 that built all the Newport's (Oregon) used a plastic fuel cell for boats. Someone with a faster connection can you take a look at this web site and see http://www.eaa292.org/noonpatrol.html Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank I have been looking at the race car fuel cells sold at places like Summit Racing. Here is a 16 gal. model that's made of polyethylene, is made to be crash resistant, has a sump in the bottom, has built in indentations for stainless steel hold down (or up) straps, and uses all AN fittings. And its only $149. http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=3DRCI-2160D&x=3D0&y=3D0&searchinresults=3Dfalse&Ntk=3DKeywordSearch&DDS=3D1&N=3D115&target=3Degnsearch.asp Something like this has got to be far more leak and crash proof than anything I could build. If anyone has used a tank like this in an aircraft let us know. Rick H On 1/27/06, Kenneth M. Heide wrote: Hello Fellow Piet's: My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in our piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the piet? Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so describe and inform if you would please. Ken Heide Fargo, ND -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: new Piet builders
Date: Jan 27, 2006
Heck, even in California, land of a billion people, I'm an island unto my self.. Walt Bowe, about an hours drive is the only Piet I have found near me (1+ hours drive), and this is after 5 years of searching.... Walt hasn't put up a picture of his incredible A powered Piet he finished this summer so I will, hopefully he does not mind. This is a very nice Piet and a great guy who let my 4 year old son sit in his new plane. Brave soul. Hey Walt you out there? Mind if I post more pictures to the photo share? It's built to the original Flying and Glider plans. He also has an old A powered truck to go with it. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: new Piet builders Glenn Connecticut could not be more sparse for general aviation and Piet builders that Colorado. What really helps is this newsgroup and all the Piet builder websites and photos available. The best thing to do though is go to the Piet gathering each year at Broadhead the weekend before AirVenture. You can take hundreds of pictures and get every question you can come up with answered. Congrats on getting you project started. On 1/27/06, Glenn Thomas wrote: I've made a few, probably typical newbie, posts on the list and actually found another builder in Connecticut from this list. This is by far the most sparsely populated part of the country as far as Piet builders go. I'm in Storrs, CT. I've been trying to meet up with the other builder in CT an hour or so from me but synchronizing schedules has been difficult. I would be willing to drive a couple of hours to see one completed or in any stage of the building process. There is one gentleman in New Jersey that I will be meeting up with when things thaw out here. If I find myself having to do some business travel I'll probably be begging for someone in that area to give up some time to show me their plane. I keep a running diary of my project at http://www.flyingwood.com Beware that since I'm just getting started there isn't much there yet but beginning Monday when THE FIRST SHIPMENT OF WOOD ARRIVES!!! I'll actually have some progress to show. Since I'm new to all this (plane building but not necessarily woodworking or mechanics) I thought having a place to display pictures of what I'm doing will give me a way to verify that what I'm doing is considered mainstream. I still have a lot of questions about incremental inspections as I complete different parts of the plane. I'm on frappr and have a profile here in the list. This project is the coolest thing I've ever done and this list is the best resource I could have ever expected to find. Thanks Oscar, Glenn Thomas -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D7437#7437 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dsp; - The Pietenpol-List Emaics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dnbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, CO "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: fuel tank
Date: Jan 27, 2006
go here too http://www.eaa292.org/noon_patrol/apr_02.html guess I should have read more before my last email Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Catdesign To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank found it go here http://www.eaa292.org/noon_patrol/feb_02.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Catdesign To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank As I recall the EAA Chapter 929 that built all the Newport's (Oregon) used a plastic fuel cell for boats. Someone with a faster connection can you take a look at this web site and see http://www.eaa292.org/noonpatrol.html Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank I have been looking at the race car fuel cells sold at places like Summit Racing. Here is a 16 gal. model that's made of polyethylene, is made to be crash resistant, has a sump in the bottom, has built in indentations for stainless steel hold down (or up) straps, and uses all AN fittings. And its only $149. http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=3DRCI-2160D&x=3D0&y=3D0&searchinresults=3Dfalse&Ntk=3DKeywordSearch&DDS=3D1&N=3D115&target=3Degnsearch.asp Something like this has got to be far more leak and crash proof than anything I could build. If anyone has used a tank like this in an aircraft let us know. Rick H On 1/27/06, Kenneth M. Heide wrote: Hello Fellow Piet's: My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in our piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the piet? Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so describe and inform if you would please. Ken Heide Fargo, ND -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: fuel tank
Thanks Chris, the polyethylene tanks they used don't look much different than the gas can I use to store my lawn mower gas. On 1/27/06, Catdesign wrote: > > As I recall the EAA Chapter 929 that built all the Newport's > (Oregon) used a plastic fuel cell for boats. > > Someone with a faster connection can you take a look at this web site and > see > http://www.eaa292.org/noonpatrol.html > > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rick Holland > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2006 3:35 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank > > I have been looking at the race car fuel cells sold at places like Summit > Racing. Here is a 16 gal. model that's made of polyethylene, is made to be > crash resistant, has a sump in the bottom, has built in indentations for > stainless steel hold down (or up) straps, and uses all AN fittings. And its > only $149. > > http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=3DRCI-2160D&x=3D0&y=3D0&searchinresults=3Dfalse&Ntk=3DKeywordSearch&DDS=3D1&N=3D115&target=3Degnsearch.asp > > <http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=3DRCI-2160D&x=3D0&y=3D0&searchinresults=3Dfalse&Ntk=3DKeywordSearch&DDS=3D1&N=3D115&target=3Degnsearch.asp+> > > Something like this has got to be far more leak and crash proof than > anything I could build. If anyone has used a tank like this in an aircraft > let us know. > > > Rick H > > > On 1/27/06, Kenneth M. Heide wrote: > > > > Hello Fellow Piet's: > > > > My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in > > our piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the > > piet? Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so > > describe and inform if you would please. > > > > Ken Heide > > Fargo, ND > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > -- > Rick Holland > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Firewall Forward & Bingelis on Engines
You are right Mike. It is great having a Piet project going when I get stuck in a boring staff meeting or something. I may look like I am madly taking notes on everything that is being said, but nothing is further from the truth. I may be designing my engine mount, fuel tank installation, or laying out my instrument panel. I have actually come up with some of my best Piet design ideas in boring meetings. Rick H On 1/27/06, Michael D Cuy wrote: > > Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> > > Glenn & group, > > It was funny to read your post saying that things go thru your mind pretty > much all the time regarding the Pietenpol > construction. I can't tell you how many times I was out and about like > sitting in a doctors office, attending some meeting or > conference, doing bills at my desk at home, and I'd be sketching out an > idea, then another idea or design, and let it gel in my > mind for a few days before ultimately deciding on how to tackle a step > like > fuel tank shape, trim ideas, instrument layout, brake > pedal arrangement and more. I saved all of those notes and when I look > back I realize why I selected certain designs over other chicken > scratch ideas. That portion of the project---being creative in solving > various building issues, was very enjoyable and rewarding. > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: new Piet builders
Don't forget Frapper! http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol Clif > > > Scott, Glenn, you other new builders- > > It really helps if you provide some idea of where you're located so you > can hook up with other builders. City and state are fine (or country, if > you're a furriner). Happy building! > > Oscar Zuniga ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Firewall Forward & Bingelis on Engines
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2006
At the risk of sounding sappy or corny, I feel like this project changed my life. That's why I love it so much. I know for a fact I spend less time stewing over office politics and sweating deadlines because the Piet project has filled that space and taken over that part of my brain. My desk has scribblings on the backs of envelopes of my rib steamer and rib jig as well as some landing gear options that are over a year away. Like Mike does I keep the scribblings and the ones that seem decent go on my website and become my plans for that small piece of construction. It's SATURDAY! Enough typing, my wood will be here monday and I've got a rib jig to finish! Glenn -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=7526#7526 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)AOL.COM
Date: Jan 28, 2006
Subject: Bernard Pietenpol - Lindy
Just wondering -- does anyone know if Bernard Pietenpol ever met Charles Lindbergh? They were both from Minnesota and so I was just wondering if anyone ever heard of them meeting or corresponding at one time...would be kind of neat if they did and to be able to document such a connection. Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TRichmo9(at)AOL.COM
Date: Jan 28, 2006
Subject: Re: Bernard Pietenpol - Lindy
hello fred i have a bd4 friend who lives in la crosse, his name is gary rabel thought you might know him tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2006
From: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: fuel cells in Piets/GN-1
The lightweight hi-impact fuel cells for drag racing (available from Summit racing, i.e. automotive) are heavier polyethylene , have fuel absorbing internal foam cells, inverted sealing (roll over) vents, can be ordered with sending units fittings, have dual 8 AN sumps fittings w/return, and have a quick fill, flush style filler w/D ring sealing cap. My GN-1 has a 5 gallon such cell mounted in fuse and is fed by a cagbane mounted aluminum 5 gallon tank. This fuel system feeds my Corvair through both the stock fuel pump which also has an electric pump as both back up and extra boost that is switched on for final approach. Fuel cells come in various sizes, and the 8gal would also fit most Piet/GN-1 applications I believe. Gene, from Springfield -----Original Message----- >From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 27, 2006 9:50 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank > >Thanks Chris, the polyethylene tanks they used don't look much different >than the gas can I use to store my lawn mower gas. > >On 1/27/06, Catdesign wrote: >> >> As I recall the EAA Chapter 929 that built all the Newport's >> (Oregon) used a plastic fuel cell for boats. >> >> Someone with a faster connection can you take a look at this web site and >> see >> http://www.eaa292.org/noonpatrol.html >> >> >> Chris Tracy >> Sacramento, Ca >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Rick Holland >> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2006 3:35 PM >> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank >> >> I have been looking at the race car fuel cells sold at places like Summit >> Racing. Here is a 16 gal. model that's made of polyethylene, is made to be >> crash resistant, has a sump in the bottom, has built in indentations for >> stainless steel hold down (or up) straps, and uses all AN fittings. And its >> only $149. >> >> http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=RCI-2160D&x=0&y=0&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp >> >> <http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=RCI-2160D&x=0&y=0&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp+> >> >> Something like this has got to be far more leak and crash proof than >> anything I could build. If anyone has used a tank like this in an aircraft >> let us know. >> >> >> Rick H >> >> >> On 1/27/06, Kenneth M. Heide wrote: >> > >> > Hello Fellow Piet's: >> > >> > My question is.....who out their is building wing tanks for sale in >> > our piets? Or...is there a place where one can order one specific for the >> > piet? Are other members adding extra fuel tanks more extended flight? if so >> > describe and inform if you would please. >> > >> > Ken Heide >> > Fargo, ND >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Rick Holland >> >> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" >> >> > > >-- >Rick Holland > >"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 2006
Subject: Ceiling was Westach gauges
In a message dated 1/27/2006 9:00:11 PM Central Standard Time, at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: So on a 90 degree day the density altitude is around 10,500 ft. and you are still on the ground! And you're not even in the mountains yet. Rick, That's why I'm searching for the Absolute Ceiling - not the Service Ceiling. The Absolute Ceiling is the point where the wing is at the Critical Angle of Attack the wing will stall if any more altitude is attempted. In addition to the EGT and CHT instruments, I installed a mixture control to keep the engine happy in the thin air. Until I conclude these test flights, I wouldn't even attempt to get my plane off the runway at your elevation, under those conditions. I will certainly report to the group here, the results of the tests. I'll have my video camera with me. My field elevation is 1360 msl, and It feels like I'm on the edge of space up there !! :) Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MICHAEL SILVIUS" <M.Silvius(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fuel cells in Piets/GN-1
Date: Jan 28, 2006
Gene: Are you running a top mounted carb? if not why the fuel pumps? It was my impression we could run gravity fed w/a Corvair in a Piet setup as per WW, below the engine. Are the pumps necessary because of the fuel cell you are using? what am I missing here? kind regards: Michael Silvius Scarborough, Maine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Beenenga" <kgbunltd(at)earthlink.net> This fuel system feeds my Corvair through both the stock fuel pump which also has an electric pump as both back up and extra boost that is switched on for final approach. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Ontario, Oregon
Date: Jan 28, 2006
Steve wrote- >I'm currently staying in Ontario Oregon. I would welcome the chance to see >a project up close, anybody in the Idaho, Oregon area? None that I know of, but you're very close to some good friends of ours- Bill and Sandi Winn in Nyssa, Oregon. They happen to be the Anheuser-Busch distributors for that area (Owyhee Distributing), if you're into refreshments of that type. Tell Bill I said hello and I'm sure he will offer you some product samples ;o) Also, if you're up for a 450-mile drive from Ontario up to Kootenai, Idaho (near Sandpoint), you can visit with EAA'er Joa Harrison of Landshorter, Inc.- makers of affordable vortex generators (http://www.landshorter.com) and truly low and slow flight lovers. Joa works for the company that makes the Quest "Kodiak" STOL workhorse (website at http://www.questaircraft.com/home.htm ) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2006
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: I'm in!!
Great analogy Glenn, whenever I think of all the covering, painting, engine


January 14, 2006 - January 28, 2006

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